103: An Atheist or a Howard Stern Fan


00:00:00   Everyone should pull up pictures of the Ferrari 48 for the after show

00:00:03   We actually are probably going to do an after show neutral cuz I have what does he what'd you say 488?

00:00:08   Ooh, first turbo interesting. You're just hearing this news. Now. You didn't look at France was tweeting about it

00:00:13   I was going back and forth with you

00:00:15   I was watching I was watching it don't deserve Ferraris. Forget it. No Ferrari for either one of you. That's it

00:00:22   Did you guys add anything good to the topics list because I don't see anything exciting on there

00:00:28   I had one thing.

00:00:29   This is going to be a boring show everyone.

00:00:31   This is going to be a great show.

00:00:34   I just realized that I hadn't added anything other than one little measly item and I guess

00:00:40   we have some leftovers from before.

00:00:42   Oh yeah, so here's my crappy story I wanted to tell.

00:00:45   It was either today or yesterday I was fiddling with the CSS for my website and you have to

00:00:51   understand if you think of the person in your life that claims to be a developer but is

00:00:57   is the worst that you can possibly be at CSS.

00:01:01   I'm like five times worse than that person.

00:01:04   So anyway, so I'm fiddling with CSS,

00:01:05   trying to do a media query,

00:01:06   which is pretty for my god awful skill level.

00:01:11   And I remembered that you can actually have Safari

00:01:16   reach into whatever the iOS simulator Safari app is

00:01:22   to do the-

00:01:24   - The inspector.

00:01:25   Thank you. The inspector on what's being shown in the iOS simulator, which I thought was

00:01:30   freaking cool. And I know this is not new news, but that was the first occasion I had

00:01:34   to actually use it. And I thought it was amazing. It's amazing when it works. So last time I

00:01:39   used it was like two years ago, but boy was it flaky. It works great. I mean, I've, I've

00:01:43   used it a lot and it it's always worked great recently. I think it came out in iOS six.

00:01:47   Yeah. I think I was using it when it was a brand new one. I was so excited. I was able

00:01:51   to do it. It was like, this is going to make everything so much easier and it does, but

00:01:53   it would lose its connection to the remote browser thing all the time.

00:01:58   No, now it's pretty solid.

00:02:00   I use it all the time.

00:02:01   And it works with any web view in the app.

00:02:03   So not just Mobile Safari.

00:02:05   Oh, is that right?

00:02:06   That's one of the great things about it.

00:02:07   Like, if you have a web view in your app,

00:02:09   it'll list all the active web views that are currently

00:02:11   attached to the window.

00:02:13   And you can DOM inspect your web views, which is really handy.

00:02:16   I'm pretty sure that's the main reason it's there.

00:02:18   And it's so useful.

00:02:22   That's extremely cool.

00:02:23   - Yeah, so, and like I said, it's kind of a silly story,

00:02:25   but I just thought it was neat.

00:02:26   So go try that if you're a web developer

00:02:29   and/or terrible at CSS like I am.

00:02:31   - Yeah, and for those of you who don't know where it is,

00:02:34   if you launch, if you're running the simulator,

00:02:36   go back to Safari, and under the debug menu,

00:02:39   it'll list any web views that are found

00:02:41   in the running simulator.

00:02:42   So in the Safari developer or debug menu,

00:02:44   whatever it's called.

00:02:46   - That's desktop Safari, just to be absolutely clear.

00:02:48   - Yeah, it's called, oh, it's called develop, okay, yeah.

00:02:50   So if you go to develop, it's listed there.

00:02:52   All right. Any other crappy stories before we get into follow-up?

00:02:56   I can tell you about some dreams I've had recently. Maybe some travel stories.

00:03:01   I've heard that Boston's gotten a wee bit of snow. You and your beloved Winters.

00:03:06   We're not talking about snow. It sounds like we are.

00:03:10   Hey, you love winter.

00:03:11   Did anything happen in the industry that we can actually talk about?

00:03:13   No, not really.

00:03:14   It doesn't seem like it was that big of a news week.

00:03:16   We have follow-up first. We're not on the topics yet.

00:03:18   Although I didn't put either one of these follow-up items. I think it was all you, Casey.

00:03:22   So let's do some follow-up. Daniel Shurson has said, "About handwriting recognition, text input is still kind of hacky for languages with more than 30-ish letters."

00:03:30   And that was a tweet that he had posted, we'll put that in the show notes. I just thought it was an interesting point because I can imagine in a situation where you have 11 gazillion characters that may be kind of difficult.

00:03:42   That being said hot off the presses earlier today on Wednesday

00:03:47   My friend will Haynes who I believe I brought up on the last episode or if not an episode or two ago

00:03:53   put together a about five minute video of

00:03:56   how you can

00:03:59   enter text

00:04:00   In iOS 8 in various different languages so again will is Australian born

00:04:05   But lives in Tokyo and has for a while now and so he put together this video

00:04:10   and it doesn't require audio which is kind of nice if you want to be listening to like music or something else

00:04:15   but what he talks about is the various ways that you can type in both Japanese and actually Chinese as well and that includes the

00:04:23   Romaji keyboard I'm probably pronouncing it wrong. I'm sorry try

00:04:27   So do you know the actual pronunciation? No, but I always say Romaji. Okay. Well, there you go. Like Jumanji. Yeah, it's exactly

00:04:34   I could be wrong, too

00:04:37   So yeah, so that apparently the way that works is you basically use what I would call an English keyboard in order to

00:04:44   Start typing the English language equivalent of Japanese words. I'm already probably going terribly wrong

00:04:52   I'm so sorry, and then he also showed a couple of the other keyboards one of which is

00:04:57   Set up like a numeric keypad, which is kind of interesting

00:05:02   And apparently because Japanese specifically only has but so many sounds that kind of works and it's a combination of typing and swiping

00:05:08   Which is what he had actually shown me at the beer bash

00:05:10   WWDC and then I had confused my own story and I had thought he had shown me a handwriting recognition

00:05:17   Keyboard which he didn't but in this video

00:05:21   He does take the liberty of showing you how a handwriting recognition keyboard would work for Chinese

00:05:25   So it you don't have to watch the entire video

00:05:28   Well, obviously don't watch any of it, but I thought it was a fascinating and very succinct look at

00:05:33   How you can enter these very different

00:05:37   languages or type in these very different languages in

00:05:41   Really wild in different ways than the traditional keyboard that we're all used to and I just thought it was really neat did either of you

00:05:46   Guys watch this. I assume that Marco you did not because you don't believe in homework

00:05:49   I'm actually very heavily medicated right now fighting off a horrible cold. So I did almost nothing to prepare for this show

00:05:56   I literally I printed out my little three pages here of sponsorship reads, and we'll talk about your printouts later. Yeah, and and that's

00:06:03   Literally all I did I just opened up Chrome after I started this call to look at the notes

00:06:08   Excellent John. Did you happen to watch this video? I?

00:06:11   Main thing I came away from our feedback about this is that like people all over the map some people were like

00:06:18   Nobody uses handwriting recognition. Everyone's just used to typing it in

00:06:24   Or only old people whatever use handwriting recognition other people or like handwriting recognition is so much better

00:06:31   in fact

00:06:32   It's better than it is in Western languages because there's in sort of an order that you're supposed to do the strokes and a direction

00:06:39   And everything it's very regimented, and if you you know everybody learns the same way unlike

00:06:42   You know letters in the English language that different people draw in all sorts of crazy different ways and in different orders and everything so

00:06:50   I really don't know what to think.

00:06:52   In fact, one of the weird things,

00:06:53   I guess this isn't weird,

00:06:54   but I think it seemed like the majority of the feedback

00:06:56   we got were from people who were not from the region.

00:07:00   Like I'm from Australia or the UK or Germany,

00:07:04   and I moved to the Far East,

00:07:05   and I guess they're giving like a Westerners impression,

00:07:08   and then I would imagine all the people who were born there

00:07:10   can't understand a word we're saying,

00:07:11   'cause most of them don't know English.

00:07:13   So I don't know.

00:07:16   Oh yeah, and a lot of people were showing us

00:07:17   the built-in handwriting recognition

00:07:19   that's in iOS now under the accessibility things

00:07:21   and everything, and saying,

00:07:24   "Oh, Apple doesn't need to do anything.

00:07:25   It's already built in there."

00:07:26   And I remember back in 2002, I think it was,

00:07:31   when Apple added handwriting recognition to OS X.

00:07:34   Do either one of you guys remember that?

00:07:35   - No.

00:07:36   - Yeah, I put it in my review

00:07:38   'cause I got to show off my terrible handwriting.

00:07:40   I tried to write "Hello, world" like seven times,

00:07:42   and then I showed what OS X thought I was writing.

00:07:45   Sometimes it guessed correctly, "Hello, world."

00:07:46   Other times it was way off.

00:07:49   But in all these cases, it's like,

00:07:51   this is sort of an optional extra buried in some way.

00:07:56   It's not universal.

00:07:56   Like when Apple added speech recognition,

00:07:59   pretty much any place you have a text input field,

00:08:01   if you can bring up the standard keyboard,

00:08:03   there's the little microphone and you can use it there.

00:08:06   Handwriting recognition has not been raised that level,

00:08:09   mostly because Apple doesn't ship any devices with stylus

00:08:11   and doesn't really have its own stylus

00:08:14   that it supports or anything.

00:08:15   So I think that's what we're all waiting for

00:08:19   regarding the styles in the iPad.

00:08:21   Will Apple do for handwriting recognition

00:08:24   what it has already done for text input with a keyboard

00:08:27   and for audio input speech to text?

00:08:32   - Cool.

00:08:34   So is this even still in OS X now?

00:08:38   - I think so.

00:08:39   I mean, I should pull out my tablet and connect it

00:08:40   and see if it happens.

00:08:41   So they called it Ink or something.

00:08:42   You don't see the-- - Inkwell.

00:08:44   Yeah, you don't see the preference pane unless you actually attach a tablet.

00:08:48   So until you do that, it doesn't appear.

00:08:50   I guess you could just go into the preference panes directory and look to see if you see

00:08:53   the handwriting recognition or ink thing in there.

00:08:56   I have a Wacom tablet in the closet I could probably try with this week and report back

00:09:00   next week.

00:09:01   Yeah, that's what I use for the review.

00:09:02   I think I borrowed a tablet and just plugged it in and a little thing appeared.

00:09:06   We'll find that link for the show notes at some point.

00:09:10   is in the chat saying to us that it's still there so we'll assume that that's the case.

00:09:15   Yeah you know I have been looking for ways to slow down my computer input and make it

00:09:19   less efficient and more annoying and take up more desk space so I'm looking forward

00:09:23   to trying this.

00:09:25   There's a designer at work and he has a Wacom, Wacom, Wacket whatever it's called, tablet-y

00:09:32   thing and not only that but he also has a Magic Trackpad and I believe he also uses

00:09:38   So he has all three manners of pointing devices on his desk

00:09:41   at all times, which I think is a little bit crazy,

00:09:45   but designers are kind of a little bit crazy.

00:09:49   - Well, he currently has the same number of input methods

00:09:52   on his desk as I have headphone amps on my desk,

00:09:54   so I can't really complain or say anything about that.

00:09:58   - Fair enough.

00:10:00   All right, any other follow-up that we have,

00:10:02   or are we good to go on that?

00:10:04   - I feel like we're forgetting something,

00:10:06   but I don't know what.

00:10:07   Well, yeah, you're forgetting to follow up on my email.

00:10:11   People complaining about, "Oh, yeah, we can talk about that."

00:10:13   No, no, that was a bad reference, never mind.

00:10:16   Anyway, it reminded me of last week when Marco told everybody that he hates them, and then

00:10:21   this week we got all the angry email from the people whose feelings are hurt by Marco's

00:10:27   email policy.

00:10:28   Oh, yeah, there were a lot of hurt feelings.

00:10:30   Were there?

00:10:31   Because from the responses that actually got to me via Twitter and email, it was overwhelmingly

00:10:37   positive. There were certainly some people who were like, "Yeah, you probably shouldn't

00:10:41   be doing that," or "I'm personally offended, you should not even be in business." One

00:10:46   guy got really bent out of shape, but for the most part, the response was not nearly

00:10:52   as bad as I expected. It was overall mostly in agreement, or at least understanding.

00:10:58   I think that is fair.

00:11:00   I think even the people who were angry understood. They were just like… the people who were

00:11:05   angry didn't like the idea that your policy left some people feeling bad like

00:11:14   especially if it was them like they would say I understand the effects of

00:11:18   your policy in terms of how you allocate your time and return on investments like

00:11:23   the the business type things but they would say but I think overall it's not a

00:11:29   good strategy because it leaves some of your customers feeling bad and and

00:11:34   and sometimes they would say they were one of the customers who have a health add, and

00:11:37   some of them would say, "I don't personally mind, but I can imagine that some customers

00:11:41   feel bad."

00:11:42   So therefore, the overall effect of your strategy is negative or could be better if you did

00:11:47   suggestions X, Y, and Z.

00:11:50   What I thought was interesting is that I actually heard from a handful of other people with

00:11:57   some degree of internet fame or some sizable audience who also have similar quick skimming

00:12:04   and very little replying policies,

00:12:07   or some of them you don't even read the emails anymore.

00:12:10   So I heard from a number of people, a few people,

00:12:13   who were in a similar situation

00:12:16   and who did basically the same thing,

00:12:18   but you can't really come out

00:12:20   and say that publicly a lot of the time.

00:12:22   Like it's kind of like saying you're an atheist

00:12:24   or a Howard Stern fan.

00:12:25   Like there's a lot of them out there,

00:12:28   but no one's talking about it really,

00:12:29   'cause it can be politically unwise

00:12:31   to say this in public to everybody all the time.

00:12:34   But you'd be surprised how many people

00:12:38   do the exact same policy, or a very similar one,

00:12:40   or an even more ruthless one.

00:12:42   - You have to, otherwise, like you said,

00:12:45   you'll spend a very large amount of your time

00:12:47   conversing with people.

00:12:48   And a lot of the people who thought

00:12:50   it was an overall bad policy,

00:12:53   because despite the good parts of it,

00:12:55   which they would acknowledge in terms of

00:12:56   how you manage, giving you more time to do other things,

00:12:58   they would say, "Here are the bad parts,

00:12:59   and here's why it doesn't balance out, they would suggest alternatives.

00:13:04   It was the same thing you get with feature requests.

00:13:07   If only you would just...

00:13:08   If only you would just... and then whatever.

00:13:12   And all the "if only you would just" didn't seem like they would solve the problem.

00:13:18   If only you would just... would solve that person's problem.

00:13:20   If only you would just tweet about the problems.

00:13:24   Which by the way, I do.

00:13:25   I know.

00:13:26   Although you've done more recently than in the past.

00:13:28   If only you would just have a blog about the problem.

00:13:31   If only you would just have a mailing list.

00:13:32   If only you would just have a public blog tracker.

00:13:34   If only you would just have a blog.

00:13:38   But each one of those things, this person would be like, "Well, I don't use Twitter,

00:13:41   so you tweeting about it doesn't help me at all.

00:13:42   I don't want any more email, so a mailing list isn't going to help you.

00:13:45   I would never join up.

00:13:47   I would never find your blog, or I don't like to read your blog, so if you put updates there,

00:13:50   it's not going to..."

00:13:51   That's what it comes down to with all of these centralized places where you can communicate

00:13:57   to your users because everybody has something they do or don't want to do.

00:14:02   I don't want an email, I don't read Twitter, I don't want to read more blogs, I don't want

00:14:05   to do this, I don't want to do that, right?

00:14:07   To get them all, you would have to have all of those things.

00:14:09   A Usenet group, a mailing list, a set of forums, a Twitter account that's kept up to date,

00:14:15   a separate blog for it.

00:14:16   And even then, someone would be like, "Oh, I don't use any of those things.

00:14:18   Do you have an RSS feed?"

00:14:19   "Oh, I don't use an RSS."

00:14:20   Like, you will forever chase the individual people who have their specific needs of how

00:14:25   you're going to communicate with them.

00:14:26   And at that point it's like, well, now this is taking more time than just replying to the email.

00:14:29   Like, there is, it's like the person who wants a feature in a piece of software, like,

00:14:34   I don't need all the features in this program. You can cut every single feature except for these three,

00:14:37   and then everyone picks a different three in this, you know, 3,000 pictures in it.

00:14:41   So it's, a lot of people were trying to say, from your perspective, I see how this works out,

00:14:46   but from my perspective, as an individual user, it sucks. And I see that, but it's like,

00:14:51   If you look at the other side of it, you can't make it not suck for everybody.

00:14:56   It's always going to suck for somebody, and sometimes that somebody is going to be you,

00:15:00   or you, or you, you know what I mean?

00:15:03   It's not like a no-win situation, but people looking for a solution that's going to make

00:15:07   everybody happy, I just don't think it exists.

00:15:10   The alternatives that people suggest, those all take time.

00:15:15   If it comes to support tools, any kind of CRM thing, any kind of support service where

00:15:23   it sorts your emails into threads for you and has multiple people working on it and

00:15:27   stuff like that, any kind of email ticketing system, those all take work to plow through.

00:15:33   You're just moving the work to something else.

00:15:35   Forums, bugtrackers, public pages of any kind.

00:15:40   Somebody recommended GitHub tracking.

00:15:42   That's crazy, because regular people have no idea how to use GitHub and I don't blame

00:15:46   them.

00:15:47   You should have a Facebook group.

00:15:48   I do have a Facebook group.

00:15:49   I've posted zero times to it.

00:15:51   And Facebook keeps telling me how people are engaging with it, and that they want me to

00:15:54   pay them to let them engage more or something.

00:15:56   I don't know.

00:15:57   It's terrible.

00:15:58   I don't know how to use Facebook.

00:15:59   I even have a Pinterest group.

00:16:01   I don't know how to use that either.

00:16:02   But I have these channels.

00:16:04   The only one I really use is Twitter to communicate with the users.

00:16:07   I don't even have an overcast blog.

00:16:10   And if I had one, nobody would read it.

00:16:12   If I have the Twitter account, and I will tweet things in the Twitter account of current

00:16:17   status updates, things I'm working on, known bugs, and then I'll have people tweet at me

00:16:23   so I know they're using Twitter, I know they know about the account, I'll have them tweet

00:16:26   at the account like three hours later, as if they had not seen what I posted three hours

00:16:32   ago.

00:16:33   Because they didn't.

00:16:34   Because they didn't because they don't read their whole timeline.

00:16:35   So could you repeat your tweets on the hour every hour but not so much so that the people

00:16:39   who do read their timelines are annoyed by them?

00:16:41   Exactly.

00:16:42   not a good medium for keeping people updated, but everything else that's out there would

00:16:48   take more time, it would be one more thing to do, two more things to do, more things

00:16:52   to update, and overall probably more work, and there would still be hundreds of people

00:17:00   who would blow right by that, not see it.

00:17:03   I mean, look, on the part of the app where it lets you email me, it is surrounded by

00:17:09   reasons why you don't need to email me anymore. Here's FAQs, here's what's coming up in the

00:17:13   next version, here's what's in this version, here's the bug fixes, like here's the known

00:17:16   bugs. That's all right there on that page, no one reads it and everyone just clicks the

00:17:19   email and emails me things I already know about. That is, that's the reality, like,

00:17:24   no matter what you do, you know, no one's gonna read everything you put out there, no

00:17:27   one's gonna be aware of everything you put out there. No one is going to, is going to

00:17:32   be able to look and say like, "Oh, well, I have now checked all the official Overcast

00:17:37   communication channels, read back in the history by a few weeks to know everything there is

00:17:41   to know that's currently going on, now I will email them.

00:17:44   No, that doesn't happen.

00:17:45   I don't expect people to do that, that's ridiculous.

00:17:48   So no matter what you do, you are always going to get support email.

00:17:53   And there are things I can do to reduce the amount of support email.

00:17:55   Number one thing you can do to reduce the amount of support email is to get rid of the

00:17:59   bugs they're complaining about.

00:18:01   So that's what I'm doing.

00:18:02   by a long shot, that is the best thing you can do

00:18:05   to reduce support email is get rid of the problems

00:18:08   they're talking about and give people ways

00:18:11   to help themselves.

00:18:12   Now, the latter is worth discussing,

00:18:15   so give people ways to help themselves.

00:18:16   Password resets, like make that easy.

00:18:21   Any kind of like basic account management thing

00:18:23   that they would have to email you for, make that easy.

00:18:25   And I still have a little bit of ways to go on that.

00:18:28   I don't currently have a way to change your password

00:18:31   except by resetting it.

00:18:32   I don't currently have a way to change

00:18:34   your registered email address,

00:18:35   just because I haven't built them yet,

00:18:36   and like, hardly anybody ever asks,

00:18:39   so it's kind of a low priority compared

00:18:40   to other stuff I have to fix.

00:18:42   So there's things like that,

00:18:44   that I get occasional emails about.

00:18:46   Then there's the big stuff.

00:18:47   Hey, there's a sync bug.

00:18:49   Or, hey, you know, you should really give me

00:18:51   a delete preference.

00:18:53   That's the stuff I need to tackle.

00:18:54   That's like, and my time is so much better spent doing that

00:18:59   than setting up a support ticketing system,

00:19:01   and a knowledge base and a forum and a public bug tracker

00:19:04   and all these and letting people vote on bugs.

00:19:05   That's crazy.

00:19:07   That's just so much more work and overhead

00:19:09   and more things to manage and maintain.

00:19:11   That's not really helping.

00:19:13   - Well, that goes back to the value of those things.

00:19:16   A couple of the people who were upset basically said,

00:19:20   it takes me time and effort to isolate these bugs,

00:19:25   to screenshot them, to find out how to report them,

00:19:29   to make a bug report and to send it.

00:19:31   And then I spend all that time and effort

00:19:33   doing what is essentially help, I'm helping you, Marco.

00:19:35   I'm spending my time to help you

00:19:37   and then you're not even gonna send a reply.

00:19:39   It makes me think that your time is more valuable.

00:19:42   You're saying your time is more valuable than mine.

00:19:44   And the fact of life is the amount of effort

00:19:48   you put into something does not equate to its value.

00:19:51   You can put a tremendous amount of effort into something

00:19:53   and it just turns up not being valuable.

00:19:55   Like you could try really hard to make a fancy meal

00:19:59   and you just burn the whole thing.

00:20:01   It's like, but I work so hard.

00:20:02   It's like, yes, but the end result is just a burn thing.

00:20:05   So if you work really hard to make an awesome bug report,

00:20:07   unprompted by the way,

00:20:08   it's not like you're demanding people send you bug reports,

00:20:10   but you do this, you work really hard

00:20:12   to make an awesome bug report, you send it.

00:20:15   If you are the 900th person to send that exact bug report,

00:20:17   the value of your bug report is very small.

00:20:20   It is really just sort of a tick up on a counter.

00:20:22   So Marco knows a lot of people are seeing this problem.

00:20:24   You put a lot of work into it.

00:20:26   Maybe if you were the first one, there would be value,

00:20:28   But when you start multiplying it out,

00:20:31   it's like, if you want any,

00:20:34   you're never gonna have to commence your reply.

00:20:36   Marco is never gonna spend as much time responding to yours

00:20:38   as you spent sending it,

00:20:39   because it's not just a one-on-one relationship

00:20:41   between one person makes the software

00:20:43   and one person uses it.

00:20:44   It's one person makes it and lots of people use it, right?

00:20:46   So Marco doesn't get 10,000 days to reply to the email

00:20:51   that 10,000 users send in one day, right?

00:20:54   And then your value of your email, it really depends.

00:20:58   Like maybe it is super valuable,

00:20:59   and I bet if it was super valuable,

00:21:01   you're like, oh, I never could reproduce this bug,

00:21:03   and I didn't understand what people are seeing,

00:21:05   and now you sending me all this stuff, let's repit it.

00:21:06   I bet Marco would reply to that,

00:21:08   even though he says he doesn't reply to email.

00:21:09   - No, I said I don't reply to most email.

00:21:11   I do reply to things like that,

00:21:13   and so I've been doing this beta test this past week,

00:21:16   where I have about 800 beta testers

00:21:18   through Apple's TestFlight thing,

00:21:19   and I'm getting tons of email from those testers,

00:21:22   and I'm answering as many as I possibly can

00:21:24   out of that group, 'cause I know,

00:21:25   that's like a separate group.

00:21:26   That's like, I ask people to beta test,

00:21:29   they are taking the time to install

00:21:31   a relatively untested version on their device,

00:21:35   and they are writing up bug reports and sending them to me,

00:21:38   and I am actually doing a lot of responding on those.

00:21:41   It's way above my regular rate of responses on that.

00:21:45   It's probably over 50% that I'm responding to on those.

00:21:49   And I honestly feel bad about the ones I'm not responding to

00:21:51   out of the beta group, because that seems like

00:21:53   it should have a higher standard.

00:21:55   - Well, that's like 800 people,

00:21:56   but when you did the beta on Glassboard,

00:21:58   it was like, I don't know, 20 people or whatever it was?

00:22:02   And you were responding to all of them

00:22:04   because you kind of could 20 to one, right?

00:22:05   And the value of the first 20 people ever

00:22:08   to use the application besides Marco,

00:22:10   their reports are much more valuable

00:22:12   than the 700th person to send a sync bug, right?

00:22:16   It doesn't mean there's no value to that thing,

00:22:18   but you're never going to get a reply

00:22:21   that makes you feel like the effort you spent

00:22:26   wasn't in some ways wasted.

00:22:27   Because in some ways it was wasted.

00:22:29   You don't know whether it's gonna be wasted.

00:22:30   You don't know if you were the very first person

00:22:31   to send this bug report or the 900th.

00:22:34   How can you know that?

00:22:34   You don't know what other people are sending, right?

00:22:37   So I don't think you can have expectations

00:22:38   about this sort of many to one relationship

00:22:40   because you don't know what's going on

00:22:41   on the other end of it.

00:22:42   And it feels bad when you send a bug report

00:22:44   that you worked hard on

00:22:45   and you don't get any kind of reply at all,

00:22:46   which is why people are begging for like just something,

00:22:48   anything, an automated reply.

00:22:50   just like they're not asking you to spend them out of time

00:22:52   they did, but they just want something.

00:22:54   Like they're just desperate for something.

00:22:55   Of course, if you gave them that something,

00:22:56   they would say, I just need something a little bit more.

00:22:59   Like this automated reply makes me feel like you don't care

00:23:01   about my email, maybe just a personal note,

00:23:04   because I spent so much time on this.

00:23:06   And it just, I think that relationship is never gonna work

00:23:08   out where you want a response that makes you feel good

00:23:12   about the effort you spent.

00:23:13   And it's like, well then fine, I won't report bugs.

00:23:15   Like that's a problem Marco will have to deal with.

00:23:16   If suddenly no one reports bugs anymore,

00:23:19   or he gets only bad bug reports,

00:23:20   then he will actually have to take time to address it.

00:23:23   But that's, you don't know what's happening on the other side

00:23:25   so you can't say that Marco has to do that.

00:23:26   It seems like he's getting enough bug reports and feedback.

00:23:30   - Yeah, you know, I already lost the exact words you used,

00:23:32   but you said something along the lines of,

00:23:35   you can't have expectations for what Marco did

00:23:37   and the relationship between you and Marco

00:23:39   is just some random, you know, bug reporter.

00:23:41   And I think that's absolutely true.

00:23:42   And one of the things that,

00:23:43   one of the more common themes that was angry

00:23:47   that I saw of the feedback that all of us got was,

00:23:50   how could you not respond to this?

00:23:52   It only takes a moment to fire off an email,

00:23:54   be it automated or whatever.

00:23:56   And what I don't think people understand,

00:23:58   and this was the point in me bringing up that story

00:24:00   about me going to New York and me not understanding

00:24:04   why Marco didn't remember having read that email I sent him,

00:24:07   was I didn't understand the sheer volume of email

00:24:11   that someone in Marco's position can get.

00:24:14   And it wasn't until I got a lot of email through this show

00:24:18   that I started to understand it.

00:24:19   And maybe some of these people that wrote us very angry

00:24:22   about this do understand it, but I suspect that

00:24:26   unless you're in a position where you're getting

00:24:29   hundreds of unsolicited emails a day

00:24:31   that are not outright spam,

00:24:33   they're emails that you should probably be reading,

00:24:35   then it's hard to pass judgment on what any one of us,

00:24:39   particularly Marco, should do.

00:24:41   Because I find it challenging to keep up

00:24:44   with just ATP email, and that's a drop in the bucket

00:24:46   compared to what Marco's getting from Overcast.

00:24:50   So I think you're absolutely right, Jon.

00:24:52   In any case, we should talk about something that's awesome.

00:24:55   And if I'm not mistaken, this is a particularly awesome

00:24:58   something that's awesome, is that right?

00:25:00   - This episode is sponsored by Cards Against Humanity.

00:25:03   Now, they didn't want us to read a typical sponsor ad.

00:25:06   What they did instead was send Jon a toaster.

00:25:11   (laughing)

00:25:13   This is really happening.

00:25:14   I cannot believe this is really happening.

00:25:16   - So John, all they wanted to do for this ad read

00:25:20   was for you to review this toaster

00:25:23   compared to your, you know, the toaster.

00:25:25   - Well hold on, hold on.

00:25:26   Can we set the stage here since this is the first one?

00:25:28   What is the toaster and what is the particular

00:25:34   reviewed toaster?

00:25:36   - There's already not enough time for me to review

00:25:38   this toaster in a typical ad read slot.

00:25:40   So I don't think we can go too much into context.

00:25:42   So I think save for the after show, I will talk more about this toaster, but the context

00:25:48   is that I did a podcast, a Wally Wilko hypercritical.

00:25:51   One episode I talked about my difficulty finding a toaster that I found satisfying in response

00:25:56   to that episode.

00:25:57   A bunch of nice people got me as a sort of joke gift at WWDC, a fancy toaster that I

00:26:03   probably would not have bought myself.

00:26:06   And that's the one I'm using right now.

00:26:07   That's the context of it.

00:26:09   That's why it's funny to apparently send me toasters to review.

00:26:12   So I have received a toaster.

00:26:15   It is the Black & Decker TO1303SB.

00:26:23   I just want to note that the model number has both a capital O and a zero in it.

00:26:32   This is a four slice toaster.

00:26:34   And by the way, these are all toaster ovens.

00:26:37   Please do not send me things about "I should get a slot toaster."

00:26:40   I know about slot toasters.

00:26:41   Again, on the episodes, yes, I know all about them.

00:26:43   Slot toasters do not double as ovens.

00:26:45   I'm only interested in toaster ovens.

00:26:47   You may be interested in slot toasters.

00:26:49   That's great, get a slot toaster.

00:26:50   They're really nice.

00:26:51   Anyway, toaster ovens.

00:26:52   This one, let's talk about the good things first.

00:26:55   It toasts bread reasonably evenly.

00:26:57   (laughing)

00:26:59   This is a big thing because a lot of them have like hot spots

00:27:02   and you'd get, you know, one side is pale

00:27:04   and one side is over toasted.

00:27:05   It toasts them in about the same speed as my fancy toaster.

00:27:08   We'll have the model number of my fancy toaster

00:27:09   and a link to it in the show notes as well.

00:27:11   So speed wise, it's good.

00:27:13   Capacity wise, it is a smaller toaster,

00:27:16   but you know, size like it's not a fault for it.

00:27:19   It takes up less room on the countertop.

00:27:20   It's also small on the inside, that's fine.

00:27:23   It is relatively quiet.

00:27:25   You'd be surprised that the noises toasters make,

00:27:27   particularly when you just turn them on,

00:27:28   they make kind of like a transformer wine,

00:27:31   kind of like, meh.

00:27:31   - Is that what that is?

00:27:33   'Cause yeah, they all kind of like have that buzz.

00:27:35   - It's not.

00:27:36   Someone, Dr. Drangenreisen tells what it is.

00:27:38   I don't know, maybe it's an inverter or something,

00:27:39   Whatever it is, the sound gets lower as the thing heats up.

00:27:42   So it's only the beginning of this one,

00:27:43   it's admirably quiet.

00:27:45   This one does have a thing that ticks,

00:27:47   a sort of a ticking countdown thing

00:27:49   until it gets to the end.

00:27:50   - Like a bomb?

00:27:52   - Yeah, basically.

00:27:53   Listen to the hyper-critical episode of me complaining

00:27:56   about the ticking thing.

00:27:58   But this is at least is a very quiet tick, right?

00:28:00   And the oven, I use this thing for toast

00:28:04   and for warming stuff up and for cooking things,

00:28:05   the oven part seems to work fine.

00:28:08   Overall, it's pretty good.

00:28:08   The bad things about it are some of the same bad things

00:28:11   about most modern toasters.

00:28:13   This thing has three dials on the front of it

00:28:15   and to toast anything, you have to put the top dial to toast.

00:28:18   You have to put the middle dial to toast

00:28:20   and you have to put the bottom dial

00:28:21   to the amount that you want to toast it.

00:28:23   And dials, oh, these are not good dials.

00:28:26   Dials, these dials are completely smooth

00:28:31   and have like a little, you know,

00:28:33   a thing showing you where it's supposed to be pointing

00:28:35   on the top of the dial, but they're raised like an inch off

00:28:38   so you can't tell quite where it's aiming.

00:28:39   And that's important because anything with a dial,

00:28:41   you have to turn it to a degree that you memorize,

00:28:44   36 degrees, 37 degrees, 38, whatever it is

00:28:46   the amount that exactly toasts the bread

00:28:48   to the darkness that you want.

00:28:50   And every time you toast a piece of bread,

00:28:52   you have to turn the dial that exact amount.

00:28:53   If you're off by a little bit,

00:28:55   it won't be toasted enough or it'll be toasted too much

00:28:56   before the thing goes off.

00:28:58   This is a terrible design for toasters.

00:29:01   Remember when they used to be when we were kids,

00:29:03   you would have a darkness knob that you could set

00:29:04   and then you'd press a little thing down

00:29:07   and then it would pop up when it's done, right?

00:29:08   Like the little things?

00:29:09   - Yes, you could set the way you liked it and be repeatable.

00:29:13   - Right, and then it's just like one after the other,

00:29:15   down, down, down, down, down.

00:29:16   This thing with the knob, it's just not good at all.

00:29:18   And then having to set the other three knobs,

00:29:20   if you have the top knob set to the wrong thing

00:29:21   or the middle knob set to the wrong thing,

00:29:23   you can turn that toasting to the right degree,

00:29:25   but it won't do the right thing,

00:29:26   because oh, you didn't realize it was on bake or something.

00:29:28   And if you wanna use the bake thing,

00:29:29   you've gotta turn the bottom dial to the stay on setting

00:29:32   and then do the top two dials.

00:29:34   It's like, how freaking complicated can you make this?

00:29:37   They only have a little bit of an area for UI.

00:29:39   Like, I don't know how you can go this far wrong

00:29:42   with the toaster interface.

00:29:44   So performance-wise, this toaster gets the job done.

00:29:48   In fact, I was really nicely surprised

00:29:50   by how well it did all the jobs

00:29:51   as well as my big fancy toaster.

00:29:53   But user interface-wise, this is not good at all.

00:29:56   - And it's worth pointing out too

00:29:57   that this is, on Amazon currently, it's $43,

00:30:00   which is very inexpensive for a toaster oven brand new.

00:30:04   You know, the fancy ones, like the one you have,

00:30:06   are about $200.

00:30:08   So for $43, that's a pretty good buy.

00:30:10   - Yeah, and I would say the build quality

00:30:11   of this $50 toaster embarrasses my $200 toaster

00:30:15   in some areas.

00:30:16   So Black & Becker does make very solid,

00:30:19   like even the dials, which I don't like

00:30:20   because they're smooth and don't have a way

00:30:22   for you to tell where you're pointing

00:30:24   because the pointing thing is so far off the surface,

00:30:26   the dials on this one feel better

00:30:27   than the dials on my $200 toaster,

00:30:29   which I complained about when I talked about that toaster.

00:30:31   Right, there just shouldn't be this many dials

00:30:33   and it shouldn't be this complicated to use this thing.

00:30:36   - What's your final verdict?

00:30:37   - He loved it.

00:30:37   - I mean, how many toasters have I had in my life?

00:30:42   I'm not the wire cutter here.

00:30:43   I've had my old toaster.

00:30:44   I had my old toaster that I replaced with the fancy toaster.

00:30:47   I like my fancy toaster better than this,

00:30:49   but my fancy toaster is like four times the price.

00:30:51   So it damn well better be better than this.

00:30:53   My fancy toaster is probably not four times better than this

00:30:55   but you know, of all the toasters I've used in my life,

00:30:58   This is the second best, but the interface is still terrible.

00:31:01   Well, thank you very much to Cards Against Humanity.

00:31:05   This is entirely their idea.

00:31:06   Thank you very much to Cards Against Humanity

00:31:08   for sponsoring our show.

00:31:11   God, such a funny idea.

00:31:13   I don't even know where to go from here.

00:31:15   Are we done?

00:31:15   Is that it?

00:31:17   That guy should have been the sweet home, not the wire cutter.

00:31:19   Sorry, I'm not good at my brand.

00:31:22   Real time follow.

00:31:23   Yeah.

00:31:25   No one in the chat room caught it.

00:31:26   Someone in the chat room did say,

00:31:27   I don't understand why he's not using a slot toaster,

00:31:29   for crying out loud.

00:31:30   How much preamble do I have to give for people not to?

00:31:33   I understand what a slot toaster is.

00:31:35   I know all about it.

00:31:36   We're not talking about, I just, I can't,

00:31:39   you cannot get the, the slot toaster people

00:31:40   are just unstoppable.

00:31:43   - Why would you want a slot toaster?

00:31:45   I don't even understand. - But they're fine

00:31:46   if you want a slot toaster, it's good, but you can't--

00:31:48   - No, they're ter, they're worse at everything.

00:31:50   - Yeah. - They're not, no,

00:31:51   they're better at toast.

00:31:52   - No. - They're better,

00:31:52   you can toast, you can toast faster,

00:31:54   and they have a thing that you press down,

00:31:56   Like if you just want to make toast,

00:31:58   I think slot toasters are better.

00:31:59   - And as long as you never want to toast anything

00:32:01   that is crumbly or thick or non-symmetrical on both sides.

00:32:04   - Yes, you would have to have a toaster oven as well.

00:32:07   But if you have a very large kitchen

00:32:08   and with a lot of counter space,

00:32:10   then you can have a toaster oven, a slot toaster,

00:32:12   a convection oven, a microwave oven,

00:32:13   dual ovens in the walls, like whatever.

00:32:15   I do not have that kitchen.

00:32:16   - Seven ovens, at various shapes and sizes.

00:32:19   Many different knob types on the front.

00:32:21   - I love that all these people in the chat room

00:32:23   are going berserk about the slot toasters.

00:32:24   Yes, they may be plainly superior for toasting, like Jon said, but I still do.

00:32:28   I won't concede that point.

00:32:29   Well, I'm not saying that's true, but if you let's let's take it as writ that that is true.

00:32:34   Even if that is true, there's so many gazillions of things you can do with a toaster oven that you can't do with a frickin' slot toaster.

00:32:41   Now, if I had a big kitchen, I would have both. But I do not have a big kitchen, so I don't have both. That's it.

00:32:45   Oh, man, this show took a turn that I wasn't expecting.

00:32:47   Oh, man.

00:32:49   Do we have any actual topics for the week?

00:32:51   Who just added this? Did you just add the net neutrality thing?

00:32:54   Marco did.

00:32:55   I hope one of you knows something about it.

00:32:57   Well, I just have an incredibly under-informed opinion like usual.

00:33:02   Oh, well, nothing changes.

00:33:05   So the FCC released an announcement of some kind of... what exactly did they do? Just

00:33:10   an announcement of what they want to do, or...?

00:33:13   That's why I didn't pay enough attention to it, because A, I still cynically assume that

00:33:17   that we're being screwed just now in a more hard to detect way. And B, I didn't think

00:33:22   this announcement had anything to do with like, "We would really like this to happen,"

00:33:25   and then the political realities will kick in and nothing will actually happen.

00:33:28   Right. So basically, to give some very under-informed background on this topic, the FCC, which is

00:33:36   responsible for regulating US telecom and broadband and stuff like that, they have previously

00:33:42   classified broadband as a data service rather than a telecom service. For telecom services,

00:33:52   like the phone lines to your house, there's much more strict regulations over how much

00:33:58   control the carriers are allowed to exert over that, how much they're allowed to screw

00:34:02   people and put limits and controls and interfere with what's being telegraphed over the lines,

00:34:07   things like that. Internet service, by almost any kind of common sense definition, sounds

00:34:14   like that. If you ask people, "Should internet service be regulated like phone service in

00:34:22   these ways?" Most people would say, "Yes, that makes sense. Of course it should be."

00:34:26   It hasn't been yet. The FCC has tried a couple of little things to kind of half-picks it

00:34:31   a little bit, like to say, "Well, we want you to have net neutrality most of the time,

00:34:37   we're not going to go all the way and classify you as this." And then they get sued by the

00:34:42   ISPs and then they have to roll that back. So generally speaking, the FCC has been very

00:34:48   weak on this, and even like six months ago, recently, the chairman Tom Wheeler basically

00:34:55   came out and said that he didn't think they need to reclassify it the way phone lines

00:34:59   are. A few weeks after that, President Obama made some statement about it, about how he

00:35:06   He was basically opposing the FCC chairman, who I think ostensibly he appointed, right?

00:35:11   Sounds right.

00:35:12   Obama basically politically overrode, not legally, but he politically said, "I think

00:35:19   differently on this," very publicly.

00:35:21   And then, of course, the geek population like us is very strongly against the FCC's previous

00:35:27   position.

00:35:28   We want it to be regulated the way phone service is.

00:35:31   Title II is, and I don't know all the details of what parts of Title II, all of it, none

00:35:36   of it, but anyway.

00:35:38   So you had the situation where the FCC says one thing, Obama a few weeks or months later

00:35:43   says another thing, and then it came up again in the State of the Union address last month

00:35:47   where Obama talked about again how he was on the side of net neutrality, which was directly

00:35:52   contradicting the FCC's most recent statements.

00:35:55   This week, FCC Chairman Tom Wheeler comes out and says, "Oh, I changed my mind.

00:36:00   We're gonna try to, we're gonna seek this classification now.

00:36:04   And this guy, he has previous ties to the cable industry, and it's up for debate to

00:36:08   what degree that is, but he does have some previous ties to the cable industry.

00:36:11   Wasn't he a lobbyist for the cable industry?

00:36:14   Something, it was kind of, it was a little bit less severe than that in practice, but

00:36:19   it's like, there's some kind of connection there.

00:36:22   So he comes from the cable industry, so having him be the head of the FCC is kind of suspect,

00:36:26   suspects, well why wouldn't he just fight for the rights of the people who previously

00:36:31   employed him and will probably employ him in the future.

00:36:34   So anyway, that's the whole revolving door thing, that's a big problem.

00:36:37   The problem is, he said one thing last year or whenever, all of a sudden the president

00:36:44   says "I disagree" a few months later, "Oh, the FCC is now seeking something else."

00:36:49   This feels a lot like just posturing and just empty promises because Obama said that whether

00:36:56   he believes it or not, he said it because it was popular among his base, he kind of

00:36:59   had to say it.

00:37:00   Okay.

00:37:01   He had to probably put pressure on Tom Wheeler to kind of get in line with him and his party

00:37:06   and everything because that's kind of weird if your appointed FCC chairman is like directly

00:37:11   disagreeing with the president and his policies, that's kind of weak.

00:37:15   So it feels like posturing, it feels like putting on a good show for the voters.

00:37:22   But what's going to happen, like nothing's going to change tomorrow.

00:37:26   What's going to happen is the FCC might pursue this in some way, it's going to be going back

00:37:32   and forth for months if not years of drafting what the rules will even be, and then try

00:37:38   to put them in place.

00:37:39   And then Verizon, Comcast, all the big ISPs are probably going to sue the FCC or sue the

00:37:45   government to try to get these rules overturned.

00:37:48   And that's going to go through courts for months or for years and possibly go to the

00:37:51   Supreme Court eventually.

00:37:53   This is going to be a long process, this is how the legal system works with this kind

00:37:56   of stuff.

00:37:57   It's going to be a very long process.

00:37:59   And he can say whatever, Tom Wheeler can say whatever he wants today.

00:38:04   He can say, "Oh, we're going to seek this, we're going to seek these rules."

00:38:06   But over time those are going to be negotiated and weakened and possibly overturned by court

00:38:10   decisions.

00:38:12   So it's hard to say this really means a lot right now.

00:38:16   This might turn into something good down the road, but it's going to be a very long time

00:38:20   before in all likelihood before anything really can come of it if anything comes it comes of it at all and what will probably

00:38:27   happen which is what happens most of the time with these kind of moves is

00:38:30   It'll probably be watered down or completely thrown out before before it ever takes effect and the public won't notice

00:38:37   We would have moved on to some other stupid PR thing. So you're looking forward to it and you're sure it's going to work

00:38:44   That's it. I'm so cynical about these things because like just even if you don't know any of the details

00:38:50   The broad strokes are that you in your thing are roughly

00:38:55   you know a

00:38:57   Roughly correct like that the person Obama appointed to the FCC chairperson did not

00:39:04   Like he campaigned on the idea of like don't you know it was against the revolving door don't take people from?

00:39:11   Industries and then appoint them to regulate the industries that they came from and are going back to that's a bad thing

00:39:16   It's the anti pattern to use our lingo

00:39:18   We shouldn't do that and then did that it ostensibly did that same thing with the FCC chairman, although

00:39:24   MTW in the chat room says that this is not the case at all

00:39:28   And I don't know what we're getting wrong about that

00:39:30   But like it was an industry person, right?

00:39:32   It doesn't mean all people who were in the industry are bad or evil or whatever

00:39:35   It just means like it's kind of other things like if there's an appearance of impropriety

00:39:38   like try to avoid even the appearance rather than you know going on an individual basis like just you know, you know, I mean like so

00:39:46   You know that the optics of this were bad

00:39:49   You took someone from the industry and you and you put them in charge of something that has a big influence on the industry

00:39:53   You say well this person is upstanding

00:39:55   They're not going to be influenced and even if they do go back to work the industry doesn't make a difference like just the appearance

00:39:59   Of it is not good, right?

00:40:00   So that starts off on the wrong foot and then to see that person say things in that position

00:40:06   that make the telecom and cable industries happy.

00:40:11   If you are regulating an industry,

00:40:14   if you're doing things that make the industry

00:40:16   you're regulating happy,

00:40:17   you're probably doing your job wrong.

00:40:20   No matter what it is,

00:40:21   like if you are in charge of regulating

00:40:23   the food safety industry,

00:40:26   if you're in charge of regulating trucking,

00:40:28   if you're in anything,

00:40:29   like no matter what you are in charge of regulating,

00:40:32   if the companies or the industries you're regulating

00:40:35   are happy about what you're doing,

00:40:36   it is almost certainly the wrong thing to do,

00:40:38   unless maybe you're rolling back another regulation

00:40:41   that was like, went too far or whatever.

00:40:43   But like, if they're happy,

00:40:45   it's, you know, especially with these giant industries

00:40:48   that have near monopolies like telecom,

00:40:51   if they are happy, something is wrong.

00:40:53   Because they are never happy about things

00:40:55   that help consumers.

00:40:56   They're always happy about things

00:40:58   that make them more powerful and that screw consumers.

00:41:01   So that like, you don't even need to get into nippy details

00:41:05   and theories about the free market or whatever,

00:41:07   all you have to do is say, is Verizon happy?

00:41:10   Is AT&T happy?

00:41:11   Do they love this?

00:41:12   Then it's almost certainly the wrong thing to do.

00:41:14   Now you have to balance it.

00:41:16   You say like, well, you're not gonna make them miserable,

00:41:18   but you can't just regulate them to death

00:41:21   and strangle the industries, but believe me,

00:41:22   no one is strangling telecom.

00:41:24   Like now we can't have any telecom companies.

00:41:27   All telecom companies have closed up shop.

00:41:29   They're just leaving their wires, hanging in the trees,

00:41:31   and just no one's gonna use them anymore

00:41:32   because it's over-regulated.

00:41:34   No, the direction everything has been going in this country

00:41:36   has been decreasing regulation,

00:41:38   which has good size and bad size.

00:41:40   And again, you can talk about the details,

00:41:41   but just as a general rule of thumb,

00:41:44   you don't even need to look at consumers.

00:41:46   Don't say, "Are consumers happy?"

00:41:47   'Cause consumers don't know what's going on.

00:41:49   These things all happen behind closed doors.

00:41:50   Consumers have no idea that it's happening.

00:41:51   Consumers have no idea what the effects are,

00:41:53   but if the industry loves it, stop.

00:41:55   Stop and look and say, "Wait a second, they love this.

00:41:58   What the hell are we doing?

00:41:58   Our job is, they should hate us.

00:42:00   Our job, it's like being the principal at a school,

00:42:02   like, or the assistant principal.

00:42:03   Like if everybody loves you,

00:42:05   you're not imposing enough discipline, right?

00:42:08   Not everybody doesn't have to hate you,

00:42:09   but if everyone's like,

00:42:10   "Yeah, everything you do is awesome, woo!"

00:42:12   Like, you know, that's not a regular,

00:42:16   same, you know, or parenting.

00:42:17   Like if your kids love every decision you make,

00:42:19   you're probably failing them as a parent,

00:42:22   or you have a perfect child, which could happen.

00:42:24   Anyway, that's how I feel about this thing.

00:42:28   So that's why I don't get too caught up in the details,

00:42:30   and maybe I'm too cynical about it.

00:42:32   I think I did, you know, every time this comes up,

00:42:34   I do do whatever things they have online to like,

00:42:36   oh, send a letter to your Congress person,

00:42:40   send, put a comment on the, you know, request for comments.

00:42:42   I do all that stuff.

00:42:43   So I'm not so cynical that I think I can't participate

00:42:45   in the process and everything.

00:42:46   And of course, you know, I vote and the people I vote for

00:42:50   are as close as possible to being in agreement with me

00:42:53   on positions like this.

00:42:54   But it's, in many cases, it's just simply impossible

00:42:57   because there are stupid two party systems

00:42:58   to find any candidate who agrees with you

00:43:01   even remotely on some issues like this,

00:43:03   but you do what you can, but anyway, I don't know.

00:43:07   I guess we'll just wait and see.

00:43:09   - All right, so let's move on real quick.

00:43:11   We hear that Apple may or may not be involved

00:43:15   in a mapping service.

00:43:17   Do you want to talk about this, John?

00:43:19   - I put it in there because it was on Loop Insight

00:43:24   and it wasn't Dalrymple that said it,

00:43:26   but like when I saw these stories, it's like,

00:43:28   "Oh, someone has some random spy shot of a van with crap on top of it, and they say it's from Apple."

00:43:34   And then I, you know, I saw that story. I'm like, "Yeah, whatever. I don't, you know, I don't really pay attention."

00:43:41   And then I saw that the loop had it, and I went to it hoping it would be Dalrymple giving one of his yuppernopes.

00:43:48   And I was expecting it to be a nope, because I don't think Apple's working on self-driving cars.

00:43:53   But he didn't even write it, so there's no thing one way or the other.

00:43:57   But I feel like he would want to write that was that Sean King that did that one

00:43:59   I feel like if you knew he would have grabbed that one and thrown in a note, but he didn't

00:44:03   And but the story did point out and I think it is a much more plausible theory

00:44:08   This is not Apple self-driving cars

00:44:10   This is just Apple's answer to Street View which we've talked about in many past shows the episode numbers of which I absolutely cannot remember

00:44:16   about

00:44:18   things that Apple's bad at and one of them is the audacity to do something like Google Street View where it's like we have overhead maps

00:44:24   and everything but wouldn't it be great if we could have

00:44:27   Street level views of stuff and like well, how are you gonna get street-level views everything?

00:44:30   well, what if we just put cameras on top of cars and drive them on every road in the entire United States and

00:44:34   That's something that would come up in a Google meeting. They would say, alright, let's do that

00:44:38   And by the way, it's scan every book in existence

00:44:40   but anyway get those cars on the road and drive it, you know, whereas Apple Apple is not an organization that

00:44:47   Does things like that that conceives things like that and that executes them?

00:44:52   But when they took up on the job of doing maps, it's like well

00:44:56   It's gonna take you a long time to catch up to Google and maps if you ever do and you don't have anything like Streetview

00:45:01   And if you want something that Streetview Google's not gonna give it to you

00:45:03   You're gonna have to do what they did which is really hard

00:45:05   So I desperately hope that that is an Apple

00:45:09   equivalent of Street View car

00:45:11   Piloting a program that's going to use some of that

00:45:13   7878 billion dollars to drive on every road in the United States eventually every road in the world taking pictures of everything

00:45:19   - And that their pictures will be higher resolution

00:45:21   than Google's because they do it later

00:45:23   with better technology and all that stuff.

00:45:24   I desperately hope that's what it is

00:45:26   and not just some cleaning van with weird stuff on the roof.

00:45:29   - Yeah, me too, because it is,

00:45:31   it's unfortunate that there are these handful

00:45:35   of major areas where Apple and Apple's customers

00:45:40   are still really dependent on Google for things.

00:45:41   And obviously Apple does not really want it to be that way

00:45:45   if they can help it.

00:45:46   And some of these, like web search,

00:45:48   general purpose web search of find this phrase

00:45:51   on the entire internet.

00:45:53   I don't think Apple's gonna tackle that.

00:45:54   Somebody posted there was a job posting

00:45:55   for Apple search on some Apple job site.

00:45:59   - They just want you to be able to find a game

00:46:00   on the App Store and stuff.

00:46:01   - Yeah, right?

00:46:02   - Keyword spammers.

00:46:03   - Yeah, I mean like, I don't think the Apple search thing

00:46:06   was about web search.

00:46:06   I think it's just like searching other things

00:46:08   that Apple needs to be searchable.

00:46:11   But the certain areas of maps and Street View

00:46:15   is probably the biggest one.

00:46:16   The mapping data is pretty close now.

00:46:21   Obviously this will vary depending on where you live, but I have found Apple's mapping

00:46:24   data to be pretty good.

00:46:26   The biggest problems I have with Apple Maps that still exist today are lack of street

00:46:31   view and that the business listings are pretty weak compared to Google's.

00:46:35   The Google's are not perfect.

00:46:37   A lot of people say, "Oh, well Apple's business listings once brought me to some

00:46:41   terrible out of date listing of this thing that didn't exist anymore or wasn't there,

00:46:45   moved or whatever. Google's business data is not perfect either. This is kind of like

00:46:50   when people try a different cellular carrier and they forget how bad their other one was

00:46:55   or how spotty or inconsistent it was in certain areas and they run back and then forget about

00:46:59   how bad it, you know, it's kind of like grass is always greener but with a little bit longer

00:47:04   term memory involved. And so like, just like no cellular carrier including your beloved

00:47:10   Verizon everybody is actually consistently great everywhere.

00:47:15   Similar to that, no mapping data for many of these services is consistently perfect,

00:47:20   and no business place name data is consistently perfect from these places.

00:47:25   Certainly I think Google's is still better.

00:47:27   Again, neither of these are perfect.

00:47:30   Google's is still better.

00:47:31   And anything Apple can do to close that gap with the business data and to provide the

00:47:34   missing features like Street View, that is very beneficial to them.

00:47:40   Strategically, long term, I think they need to do things like that.

00:47:44   They need to get total independence from the need for Google services on their devices.

00:47:49   They've come very far.

00:47:50   They're almost there in many areas, but there's still a few things that they're really stuck

00:47:56   with.

00:47:57   I think Street View and good map business place data is probably up there.

00:48:02   - Do you think that the people who are zealots

00:48:06   about slot-loaded toasters are the same Verizon people

00:48:10   that won't shut up?

00:48:11   - You know, people with slot-loaded toasters are so bad.

00:48:14   You can't reheat a slice of pizza worth anything in there.

00:48:18   - Yeah, that's so true.

00:48:19   Why don't you tell us about something that's cool?

00:48:21   - Our second sponsor this week is Fracture.

00:48:25   Fracture prints your photo in vivid color

00:48:28   directly onto glass.

00:48:29   Go to fractureme.com to hear more about that.

00:48:33   I have fractures all over the office.

00:48:36   I really do.

00:48:36   I have, let's see, five, yeah,

00:48:38   I have five within view right now.

00:48:40   These are great prints.

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00:48:44   And they print the photos on these squares

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00:49:00   Print quality is great, it looks fantastic.

00:49:03   And my favorite part is that it doesn't need

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00:49:05   If you're an adult and you're decorating a room as an adult,

00:49:10   you don't wanna just pin a poster on the wall.

00:49:13   You want it to look nice, right?

00:49:15   And so, generally the way you do that

00:49:18   is by putting it in a frame.

00:49:20   You can do custom framing, that's very expensive.

00:49:23   And with Fracture, this is great, Fracture prints,

00:49:26   like they're borderless, because it goes edge to edge

00:49:28   with the picture printed on the backside

00:49:30   of this thin piece of glass and then mounted on cardboard.

00:49:33   Anyway, so it looks like the picture is just right there

00:49:35   on the glass, because it is literally printed

00:49:38   on the backside of the glass.

00:49:39   So, fracture prints look so good,

00:49:42   you don't need to have them framed.

00:49:43   In fact, I don't even know if you could.

00:49:46   And for the price of the print,

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00:49:53   And it includes the print.

00:49:55   And it's all right there in the box, everything you need.

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00:50:51   - Yeah, you know, I just wanted to pipe in real quickly

00:50:53   that we talk so often about the 5x5 sized ones,

00:50:56   but we've gotten a couple of the,

00:50:59   I think they call them regular size.

00:51:02   It's pretty wide, I'd say like a foot,

00:51:04   foot and a half wide and maybe a foot tall.

00:51:07   And those look beautiful as well.

00:51:09   It's not just the tiny ones.

00:51:11   So don't feel like you eliminate,

00:51:13   you should limit yourself just to those.

00:51:15   But they really do look amazing, like Marco said.

00:51:17   - Yeah, the big ones,

00:51:18   I have two of the big ones above my monitor.

00:51:20   It's, oh, I love them, I just love them.

00:51:21   Oh, that's true.

00:51:22   I forgot those were fractures.

00:51:24   Yeah, that's a good call.

00:51:25   All right, so we had a question from listener Ben,

00:51:27   which I thought was kind of interesting.

00:51:29   And he said, "Would really like to hear more

00:51:33   about the Overcast backend someday

00:51:35   as an example of what it takes to run a modern app beyond what

00:51:38   you upload to the App Store.

00:51:40   There's a lot of places to learn about how to design

00:51:42   and code an app, but most examples are standalone.

00:51:44   And Overcast has some really interesting infrastructure

00:51:46   behind it, and it seems like it could be a good example.

00:51:49   For example, where do you host the VPSs and why?

00:51:52   How much will the Go switch end up saving,

00:51:54   although I think you've talked about that a bit,

00:51:56   and what other tools are in use?

00:51:58   - Yeah, I mean, I don't wanna go too far into this.

00:52:01   It's probably gonna be boring, but I host at Linode,

00:52:04   and I've used a lot of web hosts over the years, a lot.

00:52:08   I mean, I've been hosting stuff on web hosts since 2000,

00:52:13   so it's, over the years, web hosting business

00:52:16   has a lot of companies come and go.

00:52:18   Technology changes over time.

00:52:21   I've probably been at 10, 15 hosts over that time.

00:52:25   And through big and small, through my own personal site

00:52:27   all the way up to Tumblr scale

00:52:29   and a lot of things in between,

00:52:30   Linode is overall the best host I've used.

00:52:34   And there are certain areas in which other hosts are better,

00:52:37   but Linode, this past fall, they did a major hardware upgrade

00:52:42   where they upgraded the speeds of all their base systems

00:52:46   and their networking and they changed their plans a little bit.

00:52:49   And it is now an incredibly good deal for the power that you get.

00:52:55   Before that it was a decent deal, but it wasn't amazing.

00:52:57   Now it's really a very strong value.

00:53:00   So Linode, compared to other kinds of hostings, Linode is VPSs only, and I think they're all

00:53:06   unmanaged.

00:53:07   I don't know if they offer unmanaged servers.

00:53:08   It doesn't matter.

00:53:09   I use unmanaged, so it doesn't matter to me.

00:53:12   meaning that it's all on you to take care of everything, whereas managed means there's

00:53:17   people monitoring it and trying to do first-level troubleshooting. Is that all correct?

00:53:22   Yeah, and so for a while, in the early days of Davidville and Tumblr, we had managed servers

00:53:28   at Rackspace. And Rackspace at the time, I mean this was 2006, 2007, so I don't know

00:53:35   how it is now. At the time, they were really considered the best of the business for managed

00:53:40   servers and I think they only sold managed servers at the time so they were very expensive.

00:53:44   It was like $800 a month for a server, for like a mid-range server which was very expensive.

00:53:49   Even back then it was very expensive.

00:53:52   We had managed that and what I found overall, what it promises is things like, "Well,

00:53:57   if your disks fill up we'll notice that and we'll go in there and clean it up."

00:54:01   Or if your database is being hammered by some runaway processor or some terrible query on

00:54:06   something, we can go in and optimize it for you and fix it.

00:54:10   In practice, that was spotty.

00:54:12   That was very inconsistent.

00:54:13   The quality of service we got from that was inconsistent.

00:54:16   Most of the time, it was ultimately on us to fix the problem.

00:54:20   It was like, well they could tell us, "Oh, well your problem is you have a lot of requests

00:54:25   coming in."

00:54:26   It's like, well, yeah, thanks.

00:54:30   Most of the time, it wasn't particularly useful.

00:54:34   And maybe that's just because we were programmers, so we knew how to do the basics of system

00:54:38   administration.

00:54:39   need them to install Apache for us, stuff like that.

00:54:42   We could figure that out on our own.

00:54:45   So it depends on what skill level you need.

00:54:49   These days, if you need more hand-holding from them

00:54:53   and you need them to do more things for you,

00:54:55   these days you're probably not looking at servers at all.

00:54:57   You're probably looking at managed cloud services,

00:54:59   which have higher abstraction and everything else.

00:55:03   That's kind of another story.

00:55:04   The industry's very different these days than it was in 2006.

00:55:06   But basically I use Linode because it has a very, very good value and a surprisingly

00:55:13   good control panel.

00:55:17   Web hosting control panels are kind of like non-Igloo intranets.

00:55:22   Oh my god, web hosting control panels are usually so awful.

00:55:29   It seems like every web host in the world is just totally incapable of making one that

00:55:34   is remotely usable and even has ever been slightly thought out of how people actually

00:55:40   use it, with a very small number of exceptions, and Linode is one of them.

00:55:44   Digital Oceans is decent, but Linode is still by far more fully functional.

00:55:48   I've tried other things, I've tried Digital Ocean, I've tried a couple of other ones.

00:55:52   I keep coming back to Linode because it is just a really fantastic value for what it

00:55:58   is, which is unmanaged VPSs.

00:56:02   So if you need some other kind of server, some other kind of service, some other kind

00:56:05   of hosting that's not an unmanaged VPS, I can't really help you because I haven't

00:56:10   bought those.

00:56:11   I don't really know what the market is like for those.

00:56:14   The reason I do what I do is because I know enough about system administration that I

00:56:18   can run my own servers.

00:56:20   I know how to do it in a way that does not put a lot of burden on me.

00:56:23   It's very low maintenance.

00:56:24   Like I'm not being woken up in the middle of the night to deal with a server problem.

00:56:28   I know how to do it now so that doesn't happen.

00:56:31   And honestly it isn't that hard these days because servers are so freaking fast these

00:56:34   days.

00:56:35   And I use old boring tools like MySQL.

00:56:37   So like MySQL, for all the crap it gets, I have never had a problem that was MySQL's

00:56:43   fault.

00:56:44   Ever.

00:56:45   In all of Tumblr, all of Instapaper, everything I've done on the side between then, since

00:56:48   then, and now all of Overcast.

00:56:50   I have used MySQL so, and I've said this before on the show, I've used MySQL so heavily in

00:56:55   so many different configurations.

00:56:57   I've never had a problem that was MySQL's fault.

00:57:00   I've never had MySQL wake me up in the middle of the night.

00:57:02   I've never even had it crash in use.

00:57:04   I've never seen the MySQL process crash.

00:57:08   It's incredible.

00:57:09   So if you are fairly conservative with your tools, if you use boring stuff like CentOS

00:57:14   Linux and MySQL and PHP or Python, some kind of boring language that's been around for

00:57:20   a while, you can be pretty good.

00:57:22   You can be pretty safe and it can be pretty low involvement over time.

00:57:28   You have some time to set it up and then you're done.

00:57:30   And modern VPSs have these great tools for making custom setup images, cloning, point

00:57:36   in time backups and branching and recovery, all this crazy stuff you can do now with all

00:57:40   these cool virtualized services.

00:57:42   It's way better than it used to be, it's way easier than it used to be, and it's way way

00:57:46   cheaper than it used to be.

00:57:48   So the reason I do it, even though there are all these cloud services that are also available

00:57:53   now is for that cost.

00:57:57   I send my own push notifications.

00:57:59   If I had a service that sent push notifications, it would cost thousands of dollars a month

00:58:04   for the volume I sent.

00:58:06   Thousands.

00:58:07   So much.

00:58:08   For me to do it online, it would cost like $40 a month worth of server time, maybe at

00:58:12   most, probably less than that.

00:58:14   It's a massive deal.

00:58:15   And it took me a day to figure out how to send them in code myself.

00:58:20   It wasn't that big of a deal.

00:58:23   So much of the stuff I feel like people shy away from because, and these are developers,

00:58:29   you're able to make an app which is not easy.

00:58:32   It's easy in the grand scheme of things.

00:58:34   It's easier than doing manual labor all day and it's easier than solving cryptos or whatever.

00:58:40   In the grand scheme of things, if you can figure out how to make software of any kind,

00:58:45   you can administer basic stuff on a server.

00:58:48   It's really not that hard.

00:58:49   It might just be unfamiliar to you, but just like any language or platform or new API,

00:58:53   you can learn it, it's not that big of a deal.

00:58:56   You can save so much money and you can do so many powerful things once you are open

00:59:01   to the idea of "You know what?

00:59:03   Maybe I will let myself run a web service."

00:59:06   The doors it opens for you, to me, are usually, the vast majority of the time, usually worth

00:59:12   it for the time and stress and expense of running your own servers.

00:59:18   - I have nothing to add to that.

00:59:21   That's pretty straightforward.

00:59:25   Now, would you mind recapping what the Go savings were

00:59:30   when you changed the feed crawler to Go?

00:59:35   - Yeah, it was like a couple hundred bucks a month.

00:59:37   - That's significant, for sure.

00:59:38   - Yeah, my total line-of-the-bill is, I gotta look,

00:59:41   I'm still moving stuff around with images and everything.

00:59:44   So one thing I do with Overcast is,

00:59:47   because every podcast has the album artwork image

00:59:51   that it defines in its feed.

00:59:54   iTunes wants those to be 1400 pixels square,

00:59:57   so they're huge.

00:59:58   And because when dealing with arbitrary podcasts

01:00:01   from arbitrary people, many people, many podcast producers,

01:00:06   don't particularly optimize that file.

01:00:08   So you might have this album artwork that's a meg,

01:00:12   or it's a PNG when it's actually the photo,

01:00:15   so it compresses very badly or something like that.

01:00:18   Or it's a JPEG that they just saved on 12 quality.

01:00:24   Sometimes you have these massive files.

01:00:26   In the context of Overcast, I don't really need those.

01:00:28   I need them only really as the iPad artwork.

01:00:31   In every other context, things like search results, even just downloading things, you

01:00:35   don't need the files to be that big.

01:00:37   And a lot of times, people who subscribe to a lot of podcasts, they might have hundreds

01:00:41   of megs worth of album artwork to download, and that's no good.

01:00:45   So what I do as part of my hosting is I proxy and serve all album art images in Overcast

01:00:52   through my own infrastructure.

01:00:54   I resize the images to correct sizes that are actually needed by the app and I serve

01:00:59   them through a CDN.

01:01:00   So that's why when you search Overcast, if you do a search for like "add podcast"

01:01:04   type in a keyword.

01:01:05   Those thumbnails will load incredibly quickly.

01:01:09   Way faster than if I was pulling in like the full size, mostly uncompressed versions from

01:01:14   all the different feeds.

01:01:16   I'm doing all that just to make things better.

01:01:18   You know, and again, this is another advantage I have by having some kind of infrastructure

01:01:22   in place, I can do that.

01:01:24   So right now, I'm in the process of moving some stuff around, like that used to be on

01:01:28   my own servers, now I'm trying out Imageix, but it's costing me a fortune, so I'm moving

01:01:32   it to something else, and probably back on my own servers soon.

01:01:36   So my costs are all in flux, but generally speaking, the Go transition saved me a lot

01:01:42   of money and my next attempt for the image resizing is actually going to be based in

01:01:47   Go and using this library called Vips, which I don't know anything about but apparently

01:01:51   it like destroys everything else in image resizing performance. So if anybody knows

01:01:56   anything about the Vips library for resizing images let me know. Fair enough. You're not

01:02:00   going to try to install ImageMagick? ImageMagick is just, it is fine. I've used it a lot in

01:02:07   the past. I built most of Tumblr's stuff against ImageMagick for the second revision when I

01:02:11   when we added the ping and gif support.

01:02:15   It's okay, ImageMagick is okay, ModernGD is okay.

01:02:19   There are some bindings in PHP, some bindings in Go.

01:02:23   It's okay, but overall ImageMagick is just not very fast.

01:02:27   That's the biggest problem,

01:02:27   and VIPs promises to be really, really fast.

01:02:30   Like, I've seen a few benchmarks, and it seems amazing.

01:02:34   So I don't know what the trade-offs are.

01:02:35   Maybe it's terrible quality, I don't know yet.

01:02:38   I'm looking into it.

01:02:38   - Yeah, it's because it's not ImageMagick or GD.

01:02:40   both of those things are like,

01:02:42   forgetting how well they work when you use them,

01:02:46   just getting them installed is just,

01:02:48   it's just like such a nightmare,

01:02:50   and it never got better over the decades of me

01:02:53   having to install those two things.

01:02:54   You're like, well, they'll work it out,

01:02:56   and it'll be, oh god, so painful, so painful.

01:02:59   - Yeah, and I don't know if this is still the case,

01:03:01   but we, at Tumblr, we had a lot of issues with,

01:03:04   like, ImageMagick would increment the version

01:03:07   in some minor way, and then all of a sudden,

01:03:10   it would be 10 times slower in certain cases

01:03:12   'cause they were like playing with multi-threading

01:03:14   and something wouldn't work right

01:03:16   or it would lock things weirdly.

01:03:18   It was unstable for a while there.

01:03:20   It's probably better now, but anyway,

01:03:21   this is pretty boring.

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01:06:12   Do you want to talk about family sharing, Jon?

01:06:15   Oh, that was the David Sparks thing that we've had in the notes in forever.

01:06:19   Yeah, he has a lot of complaints about family sharing.

01:06:23   My expectations, I guess, were just way lower.

01:06:27   What I was looking for for family sharing is an officially sanctioned acknowledgement

01:06:33   from Apple of the structure of our family unit, which this more or less gave.

01:06:37   I talked about the caveats in my Yosemite article where it's like, well, what if you

01:06:40   had already sort of kind of given your kids Apple IDs even though they weren't supposed

01:06:46   to have them because they're too young, which I did.

01:06:50   They introduced this way for you to add like child's Apple IDs.

01:06:53   And I said, well, my kids already have Apple IDs.

01:06:56   and I convert them to child Apple IDs and Apple said, "Lol."

01:07:00   So you can't actually convert an Apple ID,

01:07:02   you can't merge Apple IDs, you can't convert them.

01:07:04   And so I have to give my kids fake ages

01:07:06   and wait until, whatever, like that's annoying.

01:07:08   But at least I can have an organizer for the family

01:07:13   and another adult in the family

01:07:15   and two children in the family.

01:07:16   And so just having Apple,

01:07:19   having me be able to input that information in some place

01:07:22   where Apple knows it,

01:07:23   gives me hope that future applications, future services,

01:07:28   other future things that Apple does,

01:07:30   maybe even third-party things if they expose that,

01:07:33   could recognize the structure of my family

01:07:36   and use that to do non-stupid things,

01:07:38   like working the way that we would want the applications

01:07:42   to work for our family.

01:07:43   I have dim hopes that Apple's photo stuff

01:07:46   was going to do this, but whatever.

01:07:48   And the second thing I wanted out of it

01:07:50   was I wanted my kids to be able to buy things

01:07:54   on the App Store with their own Apple IDs

01:07:56   with me having some control over what they buy.

01:07:59   And so then they could have their own,

01:08:00   you know, if people get them iTunes gift cards

01:08:02   for their stocking or something,

01:08:03   they can go into their own Apple ID,

01:08:05   it'll be their own money,

01:08:06   they can spend it on the games that they want to spend it on

01:08:09   and then I can still see what they're doing.

01:08:11   And this feature has worked spottily,

01:08:15   which you would expect from most of these features,

01:08:16   but sometimes it works.

01:08:18   It's like, it's better than this feature not existing.

01:08:21   Now, all the complaints about this is like,

01:08:22   well, what if they download an application

01:08:25   that you bought on your Apple ID,

01:08:26   but the in-app purchase doesn't transfer over there,

01:08:29   so they have to redo the in-app purchase.

01:08:31   A lot of the annoyances of family sharing

01:08:35   cause many people, including me occasionally,

01:08:37   to go back to what we were all doing before,

01:08:39   which is just designating a member of the family

01:08:41   as the designated App Store Apple ID person.

01:08:44   And then everybody assigned in with that Apple ID

01:08:47   to the iTunes store, and I've said this before,

01:08:49   to Apple's credit, despite the fact that they're so terrible

01:08:51   at recognizing how families work,

01:08:54   they have made it relatively easy

01:08:56   to have different Apple IDs for all the different things.

01:08:58   You can be signed into one Apple ID in iCloud,

01:09:00   to a different Apple ID in the App Store,

01:09:03   and I think even to a different Apple ID in Game Center,

01:09:06   and maybe a different Apple ID in iMessage, I don't know,

01:09:08   but there's a whole bunch of different places

01:09:09   where you can have Apple IDs.

01:09:10   If it was all one thing, nothing would work,

01:09:12   because that would just totally have,

01:09:15   wouldn't allow people to even do workarounds,

01:09:17   But the workaround everybody I know does is,

01:09:19   oh, that's the Apple ID we buy everything on,

01:09:20   everybody in the family gets to use it,

01:09:22   which is nice from the bad old world of like,

01:09:24   you had to get a license for each seat

01:09:26   and if you had two computers,

01:09:27   you can only use the software on one or whatever.

01:09:30   So now, you know, in the yesterday,

01:09:32   you would spend $200 on a program

01:09:35   and you had to spend another $200

01:09:36   if someone else wanted to use it.

01:09:37   Now you spend 99 cents and your whole family can use it.

01:09:39   So maybe we're all spoiled by that.

01:09:40   But whatever the policy is, we all have a workaround,

01:09:45   which is just use the same Apple ID for everything.

01:09:47   and the quote unquote correct way

01:09:49   to do it with family sharing, even if it doesn't work,

01:09:51   and even if it has limitations,

01:09:53   and even if iTunes matches and integrated with it

01:09:55   and everything, it is a start.

01:09:57   And I've waited so long for them to have any kind of start,

01:09:59   I'm like, finally, they realize we have families.

01:10:01   So maybe in another decade, everyone in the family

01:10:04   will be able to take pictures

01:10:05   and put them into one big family photos pool

01:10:07   and not have to have one computer designated

01:10:10   as the iPhoto computer or one Apple ID

01:10:12   designated as the one family Apple ID.

01:10:14   But baby steps.

01:10:16   - Yeah, I mean, for whatever it's worth,

01:10:18   I've now set up Apple family sharing on two families,

01:10:21   on me, my wife, and my son, and then also on Tiff's parents,

01:10:25   so they together can each be their own people

01:10:27   and have their own iPads and share purchases.

01:10:30   For both of those cases, we didn't do it

01:10:35   the way everyone else did it before,

01:10:37   where we didn't have one account

01:10:39   that we just bought things from

01:10:41   and then we'd have our own accounts.

01:10:42   No, we were always separate before,

01:10:44   'cause Tiff and I just don't buy a lot of the same things.

01:10:47   It was never really a big problem.

01:10:49   And Tiff's mom just got an iPad this Christmas,

01:10:51   so it was after family sharing existed,

01:10:53   so we could start kinda clean on those.

01:10:56   And so for us, like using it the way it's intended,

01:11:01   the clean way that Apple thinks everyone does,

01:11:03   even though almost no one does except us,

01:11:05   but using it that way, it has worked incredibly well.

01:11:08   I don't think we've had a single issue with it.

01:11:10   It has really been flawless.

01:11:12   I think the challenges people are having are migrating between the old way of having one

01:11:18   shared account, if you were doing that, which you're right, a lot of people do.

01:11:23   Migrating from that into this new system.

01:11:25   But if you kind of come to the system on its own terms and do it the way Apple thinks you

01:11:29   should be doing things today, then it works very well.

01:11:33   Then you have separate pools of photos.

01:11:36   That's true, yeah.

01:11:37   The photos are not really a solved thing yet.

01:11:40   And Adam's not old enough to be buying his own things

01:11:43   on the App Store, but soon he will be.

01:11:44   And so then, you know.

01:11:45   - Well no, but that actually works.

01:11:47   So we have it set up, he has his own little iPhone

01:11:49   that's an old iPhone of mine,

01:11:50   and he has these games on it.

01:11:54   And we set him up his own child account

01:11:56   through the new child account system.

01:11:58   And so it has his real age in it,

01:12:00   like you don't have to pretend he's 13 or whatever.

01:12:03   Has his actual real age in it,

01:12:04   and his purchases are charged to my account.

01:12:09   and then me or Tiff have to authorize those purchases

01:12:11   before they're made, and it pops up, it works great.

01:12:14   And on Tiff's mom, we had hers doing what you were saying

01:12:18   with the cards, whereas, where like,

01:12:20   we gave her the iPad and we gave her an iTunes card

01:12:23   to start it up with, and Tiff's dad has had one for years,

01:12:26   so he has all this existing stuff,

01:12:27   and his payment information's already in his account,

01:12:30   and we made them a family account,

01:12:31   and we added the prepaid card only to hers,

01:12:35   and it separates it out.

01:12:37   So whichever member of the family adds a prepaid card,

01:12:40   it gives them that credit,

01:12:42   not the first person or the owner or whatever of the family.

01:12:47   And so everyone else's purchases don't draw

01:12:49   from one person in the family's credit account.

01:12:53   So it actually does the right thing there.

01:12:54   It works very well.

01:12:56   - Yeah, the reason I said it works spotally

01:12:58   is because I've had other people in my family

01:13:00   set up their family things

01:13:01   and then just never be able to get the notification,

01:13:04   you know, the thing that says,

01:13:05   do you wanna approve this thing?

01:13:06   And as with so many other iCloud problems,

01:13:08   once you confirm that the setup is correct,

01:13:10   yep, you've got a family, yep, it's structured correctly,

01:13:13   yep, people are signing in with the right Apple IDs

01:13:15   for all the various things.

01:13:16   All right, now make a purchase or try to make a purchase.

01:13:18   And now you should see a notification on your thing.

01:13:20   Nope, don't see it.

01:13:22   - Yeah, there's nothing you can do.

01:13:23   - Right, and then you gotta do the dance.

01:13:24   Okay, well, I guess we all sign out of our Apple IDs,

01:13:26   we wipe our devices, we do this,

01:13:28   or you just do this silly dance

01:13:29   and just if it doesn't work, you're like, I don't know.

01:13:32   And so that still happens.

01:13:34   And it annoys me that that happens.

01:13:37   Every time it does happen, you just feel powerless.

01:13:40   And it's like, look, see, they got to work,

01:13:42   or there's got to be a way for me to debug it.

01:13:44   And debugging it doesn't mean doing the only things

01:13:47   that have buttons-- sign out, send back in,

01:13:50   delete all data, restore data.

01:13:51   And just, it's very frustrating.

01:13:53   I've had good luck with it here, but I've seen it not work.

01:13:57   Actually, I think the first time I tried it,

01:13:59   it didn't work for me either.

01:13:59   But then it did start working.

01:14:00   What changed between the time it didn't work and it didn't?

01:14:03   know. I still find that pressure. But really the thing I'm most excited about is the fact

01:14:10   they have that metadata. Because I hope that once they have that metadata that it can be

01:14:14   useful for something. That it will encourage them to... Because if you think about it,

01:14:18   anyone designing some kind of application or service inside Apple, if it's like, "Oh,

01:14:24   we can do this thing for families." But I don't want to set up a thing where people

01:14:26   have to sign up their family. I just want to make an app. No one wants to do the infrastructure.

01:14:31   But someone eventually, the infrastructure finally did get done as a separate thing.

01:14:34   Family sharing is a separate thing.

01:14:35   So now that infrastructure is there, anybody making an application, at least with an Apple

01:14:39   for now, doesn't have to be like, "Oh, we could do this cool thing with family.

01:14:43   Oh, but I don't want to have a thing where people have to enter their families and that's

01:14:46   not part of my application really or whatever."

01:14:47   It's like, "No, wait, we've already got that.

01:14:50   It's already, you know, that information is there and presumably there's some way for

01:14:52   us to get it.

01:14:53   Then we can leverage that."

01:14:55   In kind of the same way, like I hope they leverage it more like, you know, the little

01:14:58   VIP thing.

01:14:59   when your phone is on do not disturb,

01:15:00   allow calls from VIPs and mail has VIPs and stuff like that.

01:15:04   Now that it knows who the family members are,

01:15:06   you can say things like allow calls from my family,

01:15:09   you know, or automatically put things from my family

01:15:12   in a separate bin in Apple Mail

01:15:13   instead of just the VIP thing like, you know,

01:15:16   and this is just immediate family.

01:15:17   They can go to extended family and you can like,

01:15:19   they can slowly start to model the real world

01:15:22   so we can do things with,

01:15:23   in the same way that Siri can say, you know, call my wife,

01:15:26   like the relationship,

01:15:28   trying to map the relationship between you and other people

01:15:31   and having sort of these smart assistants in there

01:15:33   that are aware of these relationships

01:15:35   and more than just like,

01:15:37   I don't know how do you do the spouse arrangements

01:15:40   and things, is there a field in context

01:15:42   where you say what their relation is

01:15:43   or is it just a note field or?

01:15:44   - No, there's a field in context for relationship, I believe.

01:15:47   - But is it like free form?

01:15:48   Like you can write any text there you want

01:15:49   or is there some like?

01:15:51   - Is it's complicated an option?

01:15:52   - Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

01:15:54   You know, to give some kind of metadata

01:15:56   that is not just arbitrary key value pairs,

01:15:59   but that has meaning,

01:16:00   and that the meaning is understood by the program

01:16:02   so they can, so that, you know,

01:16:04   even it's just like quickly doing something

01:16:07   like pulling up a picker where everything is just like

01:16:11   your most recent context or your most recent whatever,

01:16:13   but there's some kind of picker where it makes sense

01:16:15   for you to have the spouses being the default thing

01:16:18   or have immediate family as being the default

01:16:20   or trying to make reservations

01:16:23   that it guesses that you want your whole family.

01:16:24   I don't know, there's lots of things that you can do.

01:16:26   And I don't wanna get into sort of a creepy,

01:16:28   like oh Google, they know too much about me or whatever.

01:16:30   I'm just like this is information that I enter

01:16:32   and I want my photo management application

01:16:34   to know about my family, who the members are,

01:16:37   how I might want things shared and stuff like that.

01:16:39   So this is just the very first step

01:16:41   to the possibility of doing that.

01:16:44   - Real time follow up,

01:16:45   I am not seeing a relationship field after all.

01:16:48   I could swear it was there, but I am not seeing it.

01:16:50   - Yeah, the information's gotta be in there.

01:16:52   But like in the family sharing,

01:16:53   you don't set relationships like that.

01:16:55   You just say like, this is a family,

01:16:56   there's an organizer and there's adults

01:16:57   and there's children, which is fine.

01:16:58   Like, you don't need to be prescriptive

01:17:01   about like the structure of a family or whatever.

01:17:02   Just like, I just want to connect the lines

01:17:04   and say, here is the structure and here is the hierarchy,

01:17:08   adults, children, you know, like whatever.

01:17:11   Just that information, I can imagine being so useful,

01:17:15   but nobody who wants to write an application

01:17:18   that would take advantage of that information

01:17:19   also wants to sign up for gathering,

01:17:21   storing and managing that information.

01:17:22   So it's an infrastructure thing that Apple

01:17:24   needs to be doing and now is finally doing,

01:17:27   but apparently not particularly well.

01:17:28   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:17:31   Cards Against Humanity, Fracture, and Harry's,

01:17:34   and we will see you next week.

01:17:36   (upbeat music)

01:17:39   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:17:41   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:17:44   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:17:45   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:17:46   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:17:48   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:17:49   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:17:54   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

01:17:57   It was accidental (accidental)

01:18:00   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:18:05   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:18:10   @c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s

01:18:14   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:18:18   ♪ Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:18:23   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

01:18:27   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:18:29   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:18:31   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:18:33   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:18:34   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:18:36   ♪ So long ♪

01:18:38   - We have a lot of important stuff to talk about,

01:18:42   and it looks like we need to get through some BS first.

01:18:46   (laughing)

01:18:47   Isn't that the usual formula for a show?

01:18:49   That's a very, very good point.

01:18:50   So to weed through this BS as quickly as possible, can we talk about your PS4 setup and Destiny

01:18:57   UI woes?

01:18:58   Yeah, I ordered that monitor so I could play Destiny on it instead of on my television

01:19:04   and it got delayed by two snowstorms, so it was kind of frustrating for all involved.

01:19:09   Eventually it did arrive, I set it up, I've been playing it now.

01:19:12   I had to do...

01:19:14   My son hasn't learned trigonometry yet, so I tried to give him sort of the approximated

01:19:17   version of trigonometry to convince him that a 23-inch monitor, the distance he's sitting

01:19:21   from it is actually twice as big in his field of vision as the 55-inch television at the

01:19:26   distance he was sitting from it.

01:19:27   Oh my god.

01:19:28   I was just doing that as a ratio of distance to width of the screen rather than going through

01:19:33   like the angles and the fields of view or whatever.

01:19:35   I think he mostly bought it.

01:19:37   And you know...

01:19:38   How old is he?

01:19:39   How old is he?

01:19:40   Ten.

01:19:41   I mean, like, if you don't even,

01:19:43   I tried to gloss over and say,

01:19:44   all you need to know is the ratio,

01:19:45   like how far, you know, anyway.

01:19:48   He found it fairly convincing.

01:19:50   Hooking it up and playing it like that, it's nice.

01:19:53   The one thing I realized, which kind of makes me sad,

01:19:55   is that the black levels on this display

01:19:57   are nowhere near as good as they are on my TV.

01:19:59   I mean, I knew this, like I knew I'm getting,

01:20:01   it's like a super cheap LCD screen,

01:20:02   but it's just, it's shocking to me

01:20:06   how non-black everything is on this screen

01:20:09   coming off of my TV.

01:20:11   but what can you do?

01:20:12   But anyway, it does fill more of my field of vision.

01:20:16   It makes it easier to get headshots.

01:20:18   I've been trying out a little bit of hand cannon stuff

01:20:21   because everyone tells me it's good.

01:20:23   I'm not a total convert, but I've been using a little bit.

01:20:25   Anyway, the other thing I want to talk about with Destiny

01:20:27   is the UI, like the toaster,

01:20:30   there are some UI problems in Destiny.

01:20:33   Most of the UI in Destiny is actually,

01:20:34   you can tell that they play tested it a lot

01:20:36   because the things that people do frequently in Destiny

01:20:38   usually have nice ways to do them.

01:20:40   So it shows there must have been a really long play testing period where they made can be like you have a lot of crap

01:20:44   To manage and if you ever played a game that makes a management difficult

01:20:47   You're just going through screens and menus and back and forward and it's super difficult

01:20:50   This system seems weird at first when you use it for a while you realize it's very efficient

01:20:55   Lots of things are done on mouse over

01:20:57   Lots of things you do frequently like comparing the equipped weapon to another one can be done easily with a nice

01:21:03   You know the UI is actually a great lesson in how to make a game UI that's efficient for the things that people do when

01:21:08   they're playing the game. But there's one area where I think they fell down and

01:21:12   that led me to my other sad destiny thing. I was in this in a little vendor

01:21:17   trying to look at different things that I was thinking of buying and I pretty

01:21:20   much decided which thing I was gonna buy a particular helmet but I just wanted to

01:21:23   check one more time back at the other one and I went over to the other one to

01:21:26   hit what I thought was the button for details which is triangle to say let me

01:21:30   just look at this one more time to be sure that I'm buying the right one

01:21:32   it's the with the right perks or whatever and I accidentally hit X instead of

01:21:35   triangle and that immediately purchased the item spending things in game which I

01:21:42   don't want to get into that take a really long time to get I'd spent a long

01:21:45   time building up this currency and there is no one do like I'm still in as far as

01:21:50   I know no one to call it tweeted at me to correct me there is no one do there

01:21:53   is no going back it's like but but I'm you know I haven't used it I haven't

01:21:57   equipped it I haven't I just bought it immediately I just want to immediately

01:21:59   say undo unpurchase refund go back it's like the app store like sorry all sales

01:22:04   - The bills are final.

01:22:06   - And it was so disappointing.

01:22:07   I bought the wrong helmet.

01:22:08   And so some purchases make you hold down the button

01:22:11   as does dismantling.

01:22:12   And in fact, if you dismantle something super valuable

01:22:15   like an exotic, it will make you hold it down even longer.

01:22:18   Like that's good UI to make it

01:22:19   so you don't accidentally do something.

01:22:22   One little tap of the X button, boom,

01:22:23   like three weeks of work to build up

01:22:26   what it took to buy this thing, gone.

01:22:28   I found that very sad.

01:22:30   So now I have an ugly helmet with the wrong perks.

01:22:33   - I have no idea what any of that means,

01:22:34   but I am sorry for your loss.

01:22:36   - Well, you know, it's just general design things.

01:22:38   Like if an action has large consequences,

01:22:43   make some kind of undo for it,

01:22:45   or even just like sell back or,

01:22:47   and I understand that it's like,

01:22:48   I actually, I understand that it's really hard to do that.

01:22:51   Like, I don't think this is a trivial change.

01:22:53   This is a massively multiplayer game

01:22:55   where there actually are stocks for the vendors

01:22:58   and other people buy things.

01:22:59   Like it's not as simple as like,

01:23:01   it is really complicated to undo.

01:23:02   They have to kind of build it in from the beginning,

01:23:04   is you can use it for exploits, you know,

01:23:06   you can imagine all sorts of ways

01:23:07   that being able to buy something and immediately refund it

01:23:09   can be used to break the game

01:23:11   and can screw with like keeping track

01:23:13   of what inventory is there and like just,

01:23:15   it's super hard to do, which gives me almost no hope

01:23:17   that it will ever be done.

01:23:18   I guess the best thing they can do instead of undo

01:23:20   is just make it a long press to buy things.

01:23:23   But then people are annoyed because like,

01:23:24   every time I buy something,

01:23:25   I gotta hold down the button.

01:23:26   So I don't know, I think they just need to do something.

01:23:29   - And that's the extent of your destiny woes for this week?

01:23:32   - Yeah, about the fact that I never get any time

01:23:34   to play and my son is way ahead of me because he has more time to play.

01:23:38   Still want to do raids.

01:23:39   I need ascendant shards.

01:23:41   Please send ascendant shards.

01:23:42   I need like 20 of them.

01:23:44   I mean, do you want me to like rescue this conversation by talking about headphone amps

01:23:47   some more?

01:23:48   I mean...

01:23:49   No, we gotta move on to your printouts now.

01:23:50   What's wrong with my printouts?

01:23:51   Why are you printing things on paper to read for sponsor reads?

01:23:55   You were sitting in front of a computer with a screen!

01:23:58   Alright, a few reasons.

01:24:00   A, I have a printer and a lot of paper.

01:24:04   What else am I supposed to do with it?

01:24:05   (laughing)

01:24:08   - You've got paper burning a hole in your virtual pocket.

01:24:11   Just had to spend it.

01:24:13   - Yeah, that's true.

01:24:14   I mean, I have this laser printer that I bought

01:24:16   when paper still mattered slightly more than it does now.

01:24:18   And it can print like thousands of pages

01:24:21   before running out of toner.

01:24:22   And so, hey, what else am I gonna do with it?

01:24:24   That's part of it.

01:24:25   Also that my microphone is angled.

01:24:30   I can't actually talk ideally optimally directly into the mic while looking at my computer

01:24:36   screen without having it not be perfectly, you know, not be as well isolated against

01:24:41   echoes and stuff like that in my setup that I have here.

01:24:44   Why don't you move your mic?

01:24:46   I mean I could do that, but it just like, it works better this way for me right now.

01:24:51   And then mostly it's just because my computer screen is full of windows, despite the way

01:24:57   you think I work.

01:25:00   I know you think I have one window and then I close it

01:25:01   and then I open up another one and then I close that.

01:25:03   - I retweeted that guy who was like,

01:25:05   oh Marco can't have it on his screen

01:25:06   'cause there'd be too many windows

01:25:07   and you'd feel overwhelmed.

01:25:08   - So I'm gonna move on from that.

01:25:10   - I didn't tweet it, someone else did, I just retweeted it.

01:25:13   - It's easier for me to manage it, for me to see it,

01:25:16   for me to read from it and for me to keep track

01:25:18   of which ones I have to do and which ones have been done

01:25:23   and then at the end to be able to glance at all three

01:25:25   and be able to read them back as the thanks

01:25:27   to these sponsors, we'll see you next week.

01:25:29   It's just easier for me to do that all on paper right now.

01:25:32   I thought about maybe doing it on an iPad

01:25:34   'cause that has a lot of the same benefits

01:25:35   where I could hold it right in front of my face

01:25:37   behind the mic here and stuff like that,

01:25:39   but I just haven't gotten around to trying that.

01:25:41   I mean, it's no big deal to do it on paper.

01:25:43   It's really not a big deal.

01:25:45   - The main reason I actually wanna talk about this

01:25:47   is because this, not because I think it's kind of silly,

01:25:52   but on the other hand, it reveals something

01:25:54   that I'm constantly complaining about,

01:25:56   which is people have the ability to deal with things,

01:26:01   to deal with real things in their hands

01:26:04   in ways that they can't do on a computer screen.

01:26:09   And if you wanna take advantage of those skills,

01:26:12   like the fact that you can manage those three pieces

01:26:13   of paper, you can look at them,

01:26:14   you know where they are and everything.

01:26:16   It's not that you have to approximate the real world,

01:26:18   but you have to leverage those same abilities.

01:26:21   Like it shouldn't feel so much more comfortable for,

01:26:24   and it's not just you, tons of people have this.

01:26:25   It shouldn't feel so much more comfortable to deal with a physical thing than it does

01:26:28   in the computer.

01:26:29   It's always going to feel a little bit more comfortable, and on the other hand, there's

01:26:31   always going to be things you can do on a computer screen that you can't do in the real

01:26:33   world.

01:26:34   But any time I see someone saying, "Well, I could do that on the computer screen, but

01:26:41   it feels better to do it in real life."

01:26:43   It's something that does not seem...

01:26:46   It seems like a reasonable thing for a computer to do, like say show a screen full of text.

01:26:50   It's not obviously kneading dough or something.

01:26:53   you need to do that in the physical world

01:26:54   is harder to do on a computer, right?

01:26:57   That's like a failure of the interface.

01:26:59   And whatever it is, it's a failure of like,

01:27:01   is the interface too complicated?

01:27:03   Is the mouse not as good as grabbing a piece of paper

01:27:08   for you?

01:27:09   Is to keep track of things, do you ever see people

01:27:12   who take notes in meetings with a notebook,

01:27:14   even though like an actual paper and pen,

01:27:16   even though they have a laptop and an iPad

01:27:18   and everything like that?

01:27:19   Is it just old habits because people are, you know,

01:27:21   grew up doing it a certain way?

01:27:23   Like it's difficult to suss out exactly what the problem is,

01:27:25   but I think there is still an element of computers feeling

01:27:29   sort of less tangible, which sounds stupid

01:27:31   because obviously it's just a bunch of little lights

01:27:32   on a screen, but like less tangible in the figurative sense

01:27:36   instead of the literal sense that they can't get a handle

01:27:38   on something unless they have it literally in their hand

01:27:41   and it feels better.

01:27:42   So anyway, that's like, I think no one is immune to that.

01:27:46   Even people who use computers all day

01:27:47   to do complicated things that occasionally

01:27:50   is just more convenient, even if it's just simply

01:27:51   like out of band.

01:27:52   Like I know these are separate like there's the show and then there's the sponsors and the sponsors are separate

01:27:56   No

01:27:56   Well, they'll never accidentally get mixed in with my other windows and I'll never lose them and I'll always have them available

01:28:00   Right and and I can always tell in the corner of my eye like

01:28:05   How many more sponsors do I have for the show?

01:28:08   Like how many do I have to do? Whereas if they were windows?

01:28:10   I think I think they might get lost a little more easily

01:28:12   Yeah, if you had blue index cards, you could throw them behind you through a a window that doesn't have any glass in it

01:28:17   They can make a glass crashing sound

01:28:21   Nobody you guys were too young to stay up that late. All right, that's fine. All right

01:28:25   We have more

01:28:29   BS to go through although I have a feeling this might be worth it and then I'd really like to talk about

01:28:33   Cars for a few minutes. So tell us John a little more about this toaster that you were that you were given

01:28:39   so things to know about toasters like

01:28:43   You know how I'm sort of rating them because again, I haven't had a million toasters

01:28:48   but I sort of know the rough outlines of the features that they may or may not have and

01:28:52   The way I like I always look at toasters in the stores. I don't buy them, but I look at them a

01:28:56   few things that I think most toasters

01:28:59   Get wrong especially the cheap ones the things that make the toaster hot the heating elements

01:29:03   If they don't have anything covering them

01:29:06   That's just asking for trouble because no matter how careful you are with your toaster

01:29:10   You always end up getting something in there and it like drips a little piece of melted cheese or whatever

01:29:14   You know, you're not really supposed to put things in there that are drippy

01:29:16   But everybody always does eventually you do not want that dripping directly on the element because it burns and it's just awful

01:29:22   there should be some kind of

01:29:25   other

01:29:26   Guard above the element sometimes that guard gets almost as hot as the element and sometimes the guard has openings in it that let stuff

01:29:32   get down to the element anyway and

01:29:34   Sometimes those guards can block the heat from the element if it doesn't have a reflective thing of load like there's it's difficult to get

01:29:39   The balance right between the elements in the guard, but anyway I look for that if I see bare elements on the bottom

01:29:43   I think it's not great. Mine has that. Yeah, well, if I see only one little

01:29:49   skinny element in a gigantic toaster I'm thinking that one element is not gonna

01:29:52   be able to heat things up enough or it's not gonna have even heating so if it's a

01:29:55   really big toaster I want to see two elements top and bottom. The plugs, nobody

01:29:59   seems to care about this and maybe it's just my old ancient crappy kitchen but

01:30:03   they give you these plugs that are like three prong plugs heavy-duty and they

01:30:07   stick out like an inch they're just huge plugs and if you have the type of

01:30:10   kitchen where the plugs are down at the same level as the toaster and you only

01:30:13   have a little tiny spot where you can put the toaster and the plug is right

01:30:16   behind it and the toaster has a tremendous depth because they're all

01:30:19   made to put giant deep dish pizzas inside them or whatever the hell they're

01:30:22   made for these days. If you plug in the toaster you can't push it up

01:30:27   against the wall because the plug sticks out from it and if you jam it right

01:30:30   against the plug A) you're kinking the cord and B) the hot back of the toaster

01:30:34   is pressing against the you're gonna melt the little rubber coating on the

01:30:37   back of the thing. I think every toaster should come with a low profile plug that sits flush

01:30:42   against the wall so that you can shove the toaster right back up against it and it should

01:30:45   have little stops in the back of it that keep you from pressing the hot back of the toaster

01:30:48   against the cord and melting through and electrocuting you and your whole family. So that's an area

01:30:52   I think all toasters could get better. Even my toaster doesn't have that, the fancy one.

01:30:56   I bought a low profile plug extension cord and did this little thing to make it all work.

01:31:01   Otherwise I couldn't even have a toaster there. Mine does have the standoffs that prevent

01:31:04   you from putting it right against the wall. And it only has a two prong plug, but it is

01:31:08   a regular straight plug, not a corner plug. Yeah, they usually have some kind of standouts

01:31:12   for safety reasons, but like when the plug sticks out, it's like, the standouts don't

01:31:17   hit, the plug hits first. And I guess maybe people have the plugs either higher up, I

01:31:20   don't even know what code dictates, all I know is that my plugs are way down low and

01:31:24   I have very little space and the plugs are right behind where I need to put both of these

01:31:26   toasters in fact. How hot does the toaster get on the outside? Some toasters get absurdly

01:31:32   hot on the outside and people stack all sorts of crap on top of their toasters.

01:31:36   Like I wouldn't put anything on top of a toaster because I know it gets hot up there but people

01:31:40   do put things up there but some of them get so hot like you're basically cooking stuff

01:31:44   on the outside of a toaster.

01:31:45   Or even if you just have like something next to it like within an inch of it and it slowly

01:31:49   like bakes that over time.

01:31:50   That's not great.

01:31:52   This used to be a standard feature that seems to be only on the super high end ones now

01:31:55   and I don't understand why.

01:31:57   So all you need is a friggin metal hook but when you open the door the little thing that

01:32:00   pulls the tray out a little bit that's convenient everyone should do that why

01:32:04   do they not do it it's too little metal hooks just do it you know some of them

01:32:07   use magnets some use fancy things and the final element is that I see all the

01:32:11   time is how robust are the things inside it like the little the little wire thing

01:32:15   that you put the toast on sometimes that wire is like as thin as a hair it's like

01:32:20   what what are you trying to save money on give me a nice big thick you know it

01:32:24   doesn't need to be so thick that the heat can't get through it but it

01:32:27   It shouldn't be easily bent or like the type of thing where it will slowly deteriorate

01:32:33   and just crack or like just the heat will work its way.

01:32:37   It should not feel cheap.

01:32:39   It shouldn't bend easily.

01:32:40   The tray that you put stuff in shouldn't be like the thinnest possible metal you can get

01:32:44   so that it slowly bends and warps and dents.

01:32:46   Just again, it doesn't cause, you know, I guess the difference between a cheap toaster

01:32:49   and a good one, just make those things a little bit thicker.

01:32:51   So that's how I'm going to be judging any toaster that comes into my life.

01:32:55   Okay.

01:32:56   That's amazing.

01:32:57   Can we talk about cars for a few minutes?

01:33:02   We can.

01:33:03   All right.

01:33:06   I drove an M4.

01:33:08   Wow that's great.

01:33:09   So yeah what's that about?

01:33:11   So a friend of mine, Keith, he just traded his E92 M3 for a brand new M4, which I drove.

01:33:22   It is the DCT, which is not my preference,

01:33:27   but I have to admit it's pretty damn nice.

01:33:32   I probably would not order one with the DCT.

01:33:37   However, it's really nice.

01:33:40   And oh my goodness, the M4 was so nice.

01:33:43   Like, I don't mean this in a genuine sense,

01:33:46   but my car is ruined.

01:33:47   (laughing)

01:33:51   The M4 was loud, which was surprising.

01:33:54   And then of course,

01:33:54   Keith pointed out as we're driving around,

01:33:56   I don't know how much of that is the speakers

01:33:57   and how much of that is the car.

01:33:59   - Well, the M cars are all loud.

01:34:02   They're intentionally loud.

01:34:04   Although, I have still not seen an M4 in real life,

01:34:07   except for a few seconds on the highway going the other way.

01:34:09   But from what I've seen in videos

01:34:13   and from those few seconds on the highway,

01:34:14   it did seem louder than the usual for M cars.

01:34:17   - Yeah, it was surprisingly loud.

01:34:20   A little bit of turbo lag, which I was surprised by,

01:34:22   because my car has virtually none.

01:34:25   And this had a little bit, which I guess makes sense

01:34:27   if you have a bigger turbo,

01:34:28   or pushing more boost, or whatever.

01:34:29   But it certainly surprised me

01:34:32   that the number was more than zero.

01:34:35   The interior was bigger than I expected,

01:34:38   which is probably silly because it's a 3 Series,

01:34:40   so to speak.

01:34:41   Yeah, obviously it's an M4,

01:34:42   but my point being that it's the same size

01:34:45   as your average 3 Series, just with one less,

01:34:47   or two less doors.

01:34:48   But it was bigger inside than I expected.

01:34:51   The driving experience though was just amazing.

01:34:56   God, it was so good.

01:34:57   And it was extremely quick.

01:35:01   I feel like it was,

01:35:03   and I haven't crunched numbers or anything,

01:35:05   but I feel like the power to weight ratio

01:35:08   of your car, Marco, in this car

01:35:09   were approximately equivalent

01:35:12   in so far as you stand on the gas

01:35:14   and you are hurtled forward

01:35:15   at an uncomfortable rate of speed.

01:35:17   And he was well within break-in.

01:35:19   I think the car had like 300 miles on it

01:35:20   or something like that.

01:35:21   So I was coming off throttle at 5,000 RPM

01:35:24   or something like that.

01:35:25   But, oh my goodness, the thing was amazing.

01:35:28   And now I kind of want an M3.

01:35:31   Well, not that I didn't before, but I want one again.

01:35:34   - What color was it?

01:35:35   - I forget the name of the blue,

01:35:36   but the bright, bright, bright blue,

01:35:37   which is not my favorite and was not his favorite either,

01:35:40   but it looked better in person.

01:35:42   Not too dissimilar from the orange 1M.

01:35:45   I forget what actual color that is, Marco probably knows.

01:35:49   - Well, that was a Valencia orange.

01:35:51   I prefer the secure orange, it's on the newer cars,

01:35:54   but 'cause the Valencia orange,

01:35:56   I think it's still on the X1,

01:35:57   or at least it was on the X1 before.

01:36:00   It's very pale in person.

01:36:02   The secure orange is almost red.

01:36:05   It's a nice, like, bold, darker, so I prefer that one.

01:36:09   - I mean, to be fair, there are no good colors

01:36:11   on the modern M3s.

01:36:12   I can't speak for the M5, I haven't looked in a long time,

01:36:14   But the M3 and the M4 have no good colors.

01:36:16   There's black, there's white,

01:36:17   and then there's a bunch of crap.

01:36:18   - I've seen the M4 and the dog vomit color.

01:36:20   There's one of them around here that I see a lot.

01:36:22   - The yellow one?

01:36:23   - Yeah.

01:36:24   (laughing)

01:36:24   - Oh, it's so bad.

01:36:26   - Is that, I've only had one dog,

01:36:28   but that's what color dog vomit is.

01:36:30   Always kind of yellowish, right?

01:36:31   - Mine's a little more orange.

01:36:33   Yeah, mine's closer to the secure orange color.

01:36:35   It's actually more like the Valencia orange color.

01:36:38   - Yeah, and Kyle Cronin points out in the chat,

01:36:39   and I believe he's right, it's yasmerina blue

01:36:42   is the blue I'm talking about.

01:36:43   I mean it was okay, I lamented numerous times that I actually did not want to get a white

01:36:48   335.

01:36:49   I preferred to get a Le Mans Blue 335 and this and I was reminded of how much I should

01:36:55   have gotten that color when we were at WWDC this past year and a jury had driven by and

01:37:03   I am almost sure that his 335D is in fact Le Mans Blue which is really annoying because

01:37:09   it's freaking beautiful.

01:37:11   But anyway, the M4 was amazing.

01:37:13   I kind of want one.

01:37:14   I'm going to sell the two of you in order to buy one.

01:37:18   It's been great working with you.

01:37:20   So a few questions.

01:37:21   First of all, which do you think is a worse color collection overall?

01:37:26   The colors available for the M4 or the colors available for iPad cases?

01:37:32   I would actually say the M4 probably, but it is a tight race.

01:37:35   No, the M4 definitely because things like iPad cases you can have in kind of fanciful

01:37:40   colors and it's not a big deal but in a car, boy that's a lot of color.

01:37:44   Like it's a big thing.

01:37:45   It's a big expensive thing and especially in the case of BMWs where like the non-white

01:37:50   and black paints are like magic and have fairy dust in them and cost 10 bajillion dollars.

01:37:56   That's a way more important thing to worry about the color of than an iPad case.

01:37:59   An iPad case is like, well you could have two iPad cases in different colors and you

01:38:02   could swap them.

01:38:03   Like this is an intrinsic part of a super expensive thing that you're investing a lot

01:38:08   of your self and your image and your desires in.

01:38:10   So it's much worse for cars to have bad color selections.

01:38:14   - Yeah, I love this secure orange color.

01:38:17   It was available on the M5.

01:38:19   I chickened out because for the same,

01:38:21   for it's like, I would love this color

01:38:23   for a couple of days a month.

01:38:26   And then the rest of the time I'd be like,

01:38:27   ooh, it would feel like too much.

01:38:29   Also, it's a big car.

01:38:31   - It would stick out like a--

01:38:32   - Right.

01:38:33   - It would just be ridiculous.

01:38:34   - Like if I ever got a small fun car again,

01:38:37   I would be much more likely to pick a color like that on a small, fun, occasional driver.

01:38:42   But not like my daily driver, my big four-door sedan, I'm probably just going to want that

01:38:45   to be black most of the time, or something close to black, like one of those dark grays

01:38:49   or whatever.

01:38:52   For your everyday car, for this thing you're going to have for years, you're right.

01:38:57   I'm not willing to take a risk on some kind of bright out there color.

01:39:02   I don't know.

01:39:03   I think it's made for people who will take that risk.

01:39:06   That's not us. I forgot one toaster thing before we move on to that with the actual toaster. I reviewed the crumb tray

01:39:13   Doesn't slide out horizontally

01:39:17   Like you know it you can't just pull it straight out

01:39:20   You have to tilt it and then get it out and of course when you tilt it

01:39:24   There's a chance that the crumbs are that are on the crumb tray will go skittering off the crumb tray

01:39:29   Into the thing you're trying to take them out of so that sounds too late. That is not a good design

01:39:33   Hey mark, are you gonna ask me?

01:39:35   So a couple more questions name for did you feel any slippage like what was the car?

01:39:40   Putting out more power than what you could reasonably put on the road. I

01:39:43   Didn't when I kept the car pointed in a straight line

01:39:48   And so as you and I learned at M school

01:39:51   You should really only be getting on the gas with any sort of urgency and especially I learned at the M school coming off

01:39:57   You should only you should only be getting on the gas with any sort of urgency when your wheels your front wheels are pointed straight

01:40:04   ahead. And when that happened, when I when I did kind of stand on it, when the wheels

01:40:10   were pointed straight ahead, I did not notice any slippage. But to be fair, I was giving

01:40:16   it, you know, a whole bunch of throttle for very little blips at a time, typically not

01:40:22   in the lowest possible gear. Because this car is brand new. It's not at a break in etc,

01:40:27   etc. Yours. It's not mine. I have a feeling that if I were to put myself in a situation

01:40:33   where I wanted to move forward with the utmost of urgency, then yes, it would probably slip.

01:40:38   That being said, I did take a sweeping right hand 90 degree turn with some serious quickness,

01:40:46   and I gave it some gas probably before I should have.

01:40:50   And I did not notice the traction control cutting in by way of obvious loss of power.

01:40:56   Like it was clear that I was not moving forward as quick as I wanted to.

01:41:00   But it wasn't one of those situations where all of a sudden the car hits a brick wall,

01:41:03   so to speak. However, I did see the traffic control light going berserk on the dashboard.

01:41:09   So it clearly was not happy with me that I was getting on the gas with urgency coming

01:41:15   out of a 90 degree turn. And as much as I also did not want my 335 to be all wheel drive,

01:41:20   I would have preferred rear wheel drive one. The nice thing about having an all wheel drive

01:41:24   car is that I can within reason just stand on the gas with the wheels pointed in any

01:41:31   direction in just about any conditions and I will move forward with a particular urgency.

01:41:37   And that is not the case in the M4 and certainly not the case in your car as I realized when

01:41:43   I went harpooning off the course in the borrowed M5 at the M School.

01:41:48   Yeah, exactly.

01:41:49   And this is the reason why I'm very excited about the prospect of an all-wheel drive M5.

01:41:54   A lot of the purists are really upset about this.

01:41:56   I really want that because these cars put out so much low-end torque ever since they've

01:42:01   they've been turbocharged, they put it so much low end torque

01:42:04   that they can't put the power out of the road.

01:42:06   They are too powerful to be just rear wheel drive

01:42:09   and to be able to use most of that power.

01:42:12   - Yeah, and you and I have gone back and forth about this

01:42:15   and I still find it a little weird,

01:42:18   the thought of having an all wheel drive M car,

01:42:20   but as I just said and as you just said,

01:42:22   there are absolutely advantages to it without question.

01:42:25   - Right, and Mercedes has them, Audi has them,

01:42:28   like this is not a new concept.

01:42:30   Like, just BMW is like the one holdout

01:42:32   that refuses to make all the drive versions

01:42:34   of their super sport cars.

01:42:36   - Let me get Porsche and I think Lamborghini too, right?

01:42:39   - Porsche does have the GT3.

01:42:41   - Porsche has the Carrera 4.

01:42:43   Yeah, but I think Lamborghini has,

01:42:45   isn't the Aventador four-wheel drive?

01:42:47   - Most Lamborghinis are four-wheel drive.

01:42:48   The turbo, to your point, was always four-wheel drive,

01:42:52   but the GT3 was always, wasn't it the turbo motor,

01:42:56   but without four-wheel drive?

01:42:57   I'm probably getting that wrong.

01:42:59   Four-wheel drive I don't think is necessary,

01:43:01   as evidenced by all of the two-wheel drive supercars,

01:43:04   but if you are,

01:43:06   if your driving skills are not up to that task,

01:43:10   four-wheel drive is certainly more kind of point and shoot,

01:43:12   like it is more forgiving.

01:43:14   So for a consumer car,

01:43:16   it's probably a better trade-off to spend some weight

01:43:18   making it four-wheel drive,

01:43:19   just so the average person can drive it

01:43:21   without constantly breaking the rear end loose.

01:43:23   Have a higher chance of doing it.

01:43:25   Now they can break all four tires loose,

01:43:26   and that's hard to do.

01:43:28   - I completely agree.

01:43:29   And as I've said numerous times in the past,

01:43:32   perhaps my favorite point and shoot car

01:43:34   that I've ever driven was my friend Brian's Volkswagen R32.

01:43:39   And it had a absolutely terrible dual clutch transmission.

01:43:43   However, you stood on the gas at any speed

01:43:47   with the wheels pointed in any direction, in any gear,

01:43:51   and you were going to move with a quickness

01:43:53   in the direction the car is pointing.

01:43:55   And that was nice.

01:43:57   You didn't have to think about it, you could be completely ham-fisted and the car will

01:44:01   sort itself out, which is pretty neat.

01:44:03   So you want a GTR then?

01:44:05   Yeah, kind of.

01:44:07   I kind of do.

01:44:08   So we have to address the steering question.

01:44:10   So to introduce this topic, all the recent 3 Series and M3s and M4s have electric power

01:44:17   steering.

01:44:18   And this is different from the old hydraulic systems, which everyone knew, and they're

01:44:22   more efficient.

01:44:24   The main complaint about electric power steering in general is that you don't feel the road

01:44:30   really anymore and it kind of has to artificially simulate it to some degree.

01:44:34   Like you're not feeling the direct pressures that the tires are feeling, the vibrations

01:44:39   the tires are giving back to you and so it doesn't feel natural and you have a lot

01:44:45   less feedback of what the tires are doing.

01:44:47   Different EPS systems have come out over the last few years that all claim to be improving

01:44:52   in this regard.

01:44:53   claim to be better and more precise and giving more feedback back to the driver.

01:44:58   I have never heard anybody though say that the EPS system in a car they drove was as

01:45:04   good as hydraulic steering, or better.

01:45:06   There was one recent review in Car and Driver where they said that they preferred the electric

01:45:11   steering over the one with the hydraulic.

01:45:12   I just tried to remember when you tweeted that and I couldn't remember what the car

01:45:15   was.

01:45:16   It was a couple months ago and actually in the most current issue of Car and Driver they

01:45:19   They have an entire multi-page spread

01:45:21   talking about the different kinds of electronic assist

01:45:23   for power steering.

01:45:24   I haven't read it yet,

01:45:25   but I wish I could remember what that car was.

01:45:27   But it's basically, what you're saying is right

01:45:29   in generalities, but I think there was at least one

01:45:32   in one car comparison.

01:45:33   They said this one, even though this one

01:45:34   has electric steering, it has better feeling steering

01:45:36   than the other one that has hydraulic.

01:45:38   But that is, we're just getting to the point now

01:45:40   where I think very few of the very latest

01:45:43   electronic systems start to approach

01:45:45   that of the hydraulic system.

01:45:47   And the one in TIF's 3 Series GT, that one is really not good.

01:45:55   That is the biggest thing that would keep me from buying a current 3 Series, is I really,

01:45:59   really hate the current 3 Series EPS.

01:46:01   It's really bad.

01:46:03   It feels incredibly just numb and disconnected.

01:46:06   It does not feel natural.

01:46:08   This isn't just a sports car driver complaint.

01:46:13   driver can feel the difference in this and a lot of people don't like it because it doesn't

01:46:18   feel like previous cars.

01:46:21   It has a very different feel in the way it feeds back and it's generally not, it doesn't

01:46:26   feel the way you expect a steering wheel to feel in use.

01:46:30   So all that is to say, the EPS system in the new M3 and M4 is allegedly supposed to be

01:46:37   a good one, and the reviews on it have been generally positive but slightly mixed.

01:46:43   Casey, what did you think of it?

01:46:46   So the most clear and direct way for me to answer this question is to tell you I didn't

01:46:51   think about it until Keith asked me.

01:46:54   Okay, that's good.

01:46:55   That's similar to when you asked me about how the engine noise simulation was in the

01:47:00   M5.

01:47:01   I said the same thing, which is like, when I was driving it, I didn't even notice or

01:47:05   think about it until the end of the trip, when I remembered, "Oh yeah, it has fake

01:47:10   engine noise," and I haven't noticed it this whole time.

01:47:12   Right.

01:47:13   So, to be clear, I took the car out on surface roads, so I was accelerating from almost not

01:47:20   moving to probably a smidge more than legal speeds very, very quickly, but I wasn't exactly

01:47:28   going around a track or anything like that.

01:47:30   Furthermore you know I was getting off the gas quickly and with regard to turns there were always cars in front of me

01:47:36   So the best I could do is slow up a bit and then take the turn at probably

01:47:41   You know either the speed limit or a hair above it

01:47:44   And I wish I could tell you that I'm just saying that so I don't get myself in trouble what that really was the case so

01:47:49   I didn't in other words. I didn't get the chance to like really beat on the car

01:47:52   But I didn't notice any issues with the steering

01:47:56   I thought it felt heavy, which isn't by necessity

01:47:59   a bad thing, especially on a sports car like that.

01:48:03   I don't recall the specifics of what steering mode it was in.

01:48:06   I know I was in the most fierce gear shift on the DCT.

01:48:11   There's a term for that.

01:48:12   - Right, so you're in like S3, and then whether you were

01:48:16   in comfort or sport or sport plus on the steering

01:48:19   is a different story.

01:48:21   Generally the pro move is sport plus on everything

01:48:23   except steering where you put that in comfort.

01:48:26   Right, and what I did end up doing very briefly toward the end of the trip is hitting the M button,

01:48:30   but I didn't notice any discernible difference in the way the steering felt.

01:48:34   But, you know, like I can't stress enough that you should take this with two silos full of salt,

01:48:40   because I was in the car for maybe 10 minutes or something like that. And again, it was on surface

01:48:45   roads, suburban roads, it was not a particularly wonderful test. But I didn't notice it. The one

01:48:51   One thing I did notice however speaking of the gearbox was man when you have that thing on S3 or whatever the most furious

01:48:58   Shifting mode is that thing shifts hard like

01:49:02   Surprisingly hard not to the point that I would say it was like uncomfortable

01:49:06   But it was quick and it was rough. There was no slippage whatsoever

01:49:12   additionally

01:49:14   I've programmed myself over the years that when I'm driving a car that has only two pedals when I come off the brake

01:49:21   It will roll forward that doesn't happen in these cars, right? That's why I like DCTs because they behave like sticks

01:49:28   But that's so well, I'm not saying it's bad and I think once I got used to it

01:49:32   I would absolutely prefer it but is but having driven my car like two hours prior to come to work and then my friend met

01:49:39   Me at work. We just drove around real quick

01:49:41   To go from that from my car which you know is a normal clutched car to this car

01:49:47   which because I see only two pedals I think of and

01:49:51   an automatic

01:49:53   When I took my foot off the brake

01:49:54   I'm waiting for it to creep and it didn't and it and it took me a second realize what the crap was going on at first

01:49:59   I thought I was in neutral but hey, huh?

01:50:01   But I as soon as I realized oh wait, this is the DCT car it's probably not you know

01:50:07   Disengaging the clutch reengaging the clutch always get that backwards, but it's not you know

01:50:11   Manipulating the clutch until I give it a little bit of gas, but it was reasonably smooth

01:50:17   It did stop and go traffic kind of speeds just like your car is I mean

01:50:21   This is nothing that particularly different might even be the same box. Hey very well could be it was seven speed

01:50:26   Is yours a seven speed? Yeah. Yeah. Okay

01:50:28   But yeah, I love the car. I thought it was excellent

01:50:31   as time goes on I

01:50:34   Still think if I if I were to hypothetically buy an m3 tomorrow, I would tick the 6mt

01:50:41   You know, give me the clutch gear a checkbox

01:50:44   But that being said if what's the the Simpsons line? You know, I I for one welcome our DCT

01:50:51   Future DCT overlords or whatever it is. I'm sorry John. I'm sure I butchered that hail ants

01:50:56   Yeah, totally. That was that was part of that quote wasn't it?

01:51:00   Because it was like ants coming in to take over the world or something. Anyway, that was the sign behind him just going

01:51:05   Okay. Okay. So the point being

01:51:07   if if if my future is

01:51:10   Dual clutch transmissions because the traditional clutch transmission goes away. I'll be sad

01:51:16   But I think I'll be okay overall. I think it'll I think it'll work out

01:51:21   You should get ready for one one pedal driving. I wish I had a chance to try that

01:51:25   I was a passenger when someone was doing that but that that is the future that just as you get used to

01:51:30   Dual clutch transmissions. It's gonna be one pedal driving

01:51:33   you're talking about like a Tesla you can basically drive the car with one pedal in most conditions if you're careful because

01:51:39   Not only does you know not it doesn't creep forward like an automatic

01:51:44   But when you take your foot off the gas it acts like it's braking like as you as you let up on the accelerator

01:51:50   It goes into regenerative braking and everything so it's like so you can literally drive it

01:51:54   with one foot most of the time and you only need to actually use the brake brakes that pinch little discs inside the wheels for

01:52:01   Stopping you know not not just emergency stopping stopping

01:52:06   Faster than you would normally want to stop probably but that's been true for as long as the Jeep Wrangler has been around because I assure

01:52:11   You you put a Jeep Wrangler at 60 70 80 miles an hour at highway speeds

01:52:15   You take your foot off the gas and that box is gonna stop or it's gonna roll over and explode

01:52:19   I'm not talking about like yeah, you get a minivan there that wind resistance will slow you down

01:52:23   Yeah, did you see by the way that Elon Musk tweeted like a week or two ago that they were?

01:52:28   Increasing the zero to 60 time of I believe the p85 by doing an over-the-air update

01:52:33   Did you see the videos of people's reactions as passengers? Yes. Oh god, that was fantastic

01:52:39   Well, cuz that's seriously fat. I mean, it's it's what 3.2 second 3.1

01:52:43   No

01:52:43   it's I think the most shocking thing about is that it feels more like an amusement ride because it's not accompanied by

01:52:50   First of all that the torque curve is different than on any kind of gas engine

01:52:54   The second is it's not accompanied by sort of any clamor, you know any sort of roaring engine or any of the car noises?

01:53:00   So the best analogy I think of is those

01:53:02   amusement park rides that that have a thing that accelerates the entire roller coaster from a dead stop up to high speed and it's not an

01:53:09   Engine, you know, it's something else. It's kind of like and so yeah

01:53:12   If it seemed like it would be shocking but I would prefer the engine the sound of an engine in a sporty car

01:53:17   Yeah, and just like the Tesla I especially with the p85d now the all-wheel drive crazy one

01:53:24   I'm really I would love to drive one of those just I've never I've never driven a Tesla

01:53:29   I'm curious if I'm gonna drive one. That's the one I want to drive of course and

01:53:33   I'm just I would love to try that out sometime

01:53:36   It's not really possible to because like they like is it still the case where it's test drive

01:53:41   But you have to give them five grand to get on the waiting list. I don't know I have heard that story

01:53:45   But anyway, so I I am really curious to drive that just to see how it is how it compares to like a really sporty

01:53:52   gas car

01:53:53   Ultimately though like I totally get the appeal of like keeping your sporting needs

01:53:58   basic and and to that end I was I spent a lot of time on the couch this week because I've been really sick and

01:54:04   So I started looking into the Porsche Cayman and so the GT4 was announced today, right?

01:54:10   Yes, so but even I actually been looking at Cayman stuff a couple days ago because they admit they had it on that top gear

01:54:16   thing and

01:54:19   And I know I know our friend Matt Pansarino likes it and a bunch of our bunch of our car friends

01:54:23   Think well of the Porsche Cayman Porsche Porsche. What am I supposed to be saying here? Porsche, okay

01:54:28   - You'll find out if you buy one.

01:54:30   (laughing)

01:54:32   - So, I've also never driven a mid-engine car.

01:54:36   I think if I was going to buy a small, fun car again,

01:54:39   which I probably shouldn't,

01:54:40   'cause last time it was a pain in the ass,

01:54:42   but if I was gonna buy a small, fun car again,

01:54:45   I think what I would buy would be

01:54:48   the previous generation of Cayman,

01:54:51   and I think even just the S,

01:54:52   not like the super crazy GTES, whatever,

01:54:54   I don't know much about their lineups

01:54:56   and how the differentiation goes.

01:54:58   But what I would want would be a six-speed

01:55:01   with hydraulic power steering

01:55:03   in a relatively simple lightweight car

01:55:05   with a good amount of power.

01:55:06   And I think the 2010 to 2012 Cayman S is that.

01:55:11   Like I think if you're gonna have a small sporty fun car

01:55:16   going like the purist route

01:55:18   with just rear wheel drive, six-speed, mid-engined,

01:55:22   I think that's a really powerful combination.

01:55:24   that's why everyone loves it so much, I think that would be the way to go.

01:55:28   Not like super technical like the new M3, M4, not even really the new modern Caymans

01:55:34   that have like the EPS, they have more advanced everything, more expensive of course, but

01:55:40   just like everything more electronic, more advanced.

01:55:43   Just the old style, just six speed, a real physical parking brake, you know like that,

01:55:51   there's a lot of appeal to that I think.

01:55:53   What would you guys do?

01:55:54   - I don't know, that's a tough call.

01:55:56   On paper, that's probably the right answer.

01:55:59   I've always fancied an S2000,

01:56:01   which is lower class than what you're talking about,

01:56:04   but I've always liked them.

01:56:05   - Well, still very widely regarded though.

01:56:07   - That is a Marco sized car.

01:56:09   (laughing)

01:56:10   Like, 'cause I can't buy an S2000, neither can you, Casey.

01:56:13   Have you ever tried to sit in one?

01:56:14   - I've driven one.

01:56:15   - Like, they're not size for us.

01:56:17   It's like being in a car a half size too small for you.

01:56:20   - That's very true, but I do like them.

01:56:22   I wasn't prepared for this question.

01:56:24   I'd have to think about it.

01:56:26   I have a few friends like the guy who owned the R32.

01:56:30   He still has an E36 M3, which with not a lot of work,

01:56:35   can be a phenomenal track car or just that sort of car,

01:56:41   even if you don't turn it into a track queen,

01:56:43   just with a little bit of work,

01:56:44   it can be reasonably quick and just handle unbelievably well.

01:56:51   There's something to be said for the Toyota, Peru

01:56:53   They're absurdly slow woefully slow like

01:56:57   Almost so slow that I wouldn't ever be able to drive one slow

01:57:01   That's what I was gonna say about even his choice of the Cayman like it's kind of weird for your fun car to be slower

01:57:07   than the

01:57:09   That's a good point yeah

01:57:11   No, I mean this in practice. I would probably never actually get another car because I don't like having multiple cars

01:57:17   I like having one good all-around er

01:57:19   You know rather than having like family boring car and small fun car

01:57:24   I'd much rather have the one all-around her and that's you know

01:57:26   Especially if they make an all-wheel drive version of the m5 then that's it

01:57:30   Like that's just that's it unless see and what I'm basically hedging against is if they've ruined everything

01:57:35   So like, you know if they bring in the new EPS system the next generation m5 looks that they will almost certainly do

01:57:41   You know do I have to have a terrible EPS system to get this fun car?

01:57:45   "that's all-wheel drive?"

01:57:47   If so, it would be a lot less satisfying to me, most likely.

01:57:50   So I'm always worried that all the new stuff

01:57:55   is gonna ruin everything I liked about the old stuff,

01:57:56   so I better get an old one quickly

01:57:58   and be able to save it forever,

01:58:00   which of course doesn't really work.

01:58:02   - I put the picture of the Cayman

01:58:03   that I thought Marco was talking about.

01:58:06   It does look kind of weird to me too,

01:58:07   but the model, I think the Cayman is a good idea.

01:58:11   in that sort of range it's you know it's the the simple mid-engine sort of pure sports car thing

01:58:18   they're just ridiculously expensive but the the one i would get is the generation i don't know if

01:58:23   this is like the first generation that took the rear little spoiler thing and pulled it into the

01:58:28   headlights as you can see in that picture like where the where the you know that little thing

01:58:32   is sticking out of the end of the car and it actually goes into the headlights and it's also

01:58:36   like a little ridge on the headlights themselves the first generation they did that that's the one

01:58:40   one I would get. I think that's the one Marco was talking about.

01:58:44   Yeah, I'm talking, I read this good article on Jalopnik, I just put it in the show notes,

01:58:48   titled "How Much Better is the New Porsche Cayman Than the Old One?" and they compare

01:58:52   the new one, which is the model 981, versus the old one, which is the model 987. Yes,

01:58:57   the numbers go backwards, it's weird. So that's what I'm talking about. The 987 is the one

01:59:02   that actually, like the way they're describing it and how it looks and how simple and traditional

01:59:06   it is, that appeals to me.

01:59:08   Whereas the new one really doesn't.

01:59:10   - Oh, so you want the one where the little,

01:59:12   the spoiler does not go into the headlights.

01:59:14   - Maybe.

01:59:15   - Yeah, that's the black one.

01:59:16   That's the black one in this article.

01:59:17   I think, I don't like how that one looks quite as much.

01:59:21   I don't know about the other attributes of it.

01:59:23   I think you did the test, but either one--

01:59:25   - Do you mean the tail lights?

01:59:26   - Yeah, the tail lights, sorry.

01:59:27   - Oh, okay, that makes a lot more sense, yeah.

01:59:29   - I was also confused for a second there.

01:59:31   - Was I saying headlights the whole time?

01:59:32   - Yes.

01:59:33   - I'm looking at the picture of the tail,

01:59:34   the back of the car.

01:59:35   I mean, I don't think the back of either of them

01:59:37   look very good, to be honest.

01:59:39   - I'm just saying, this is just how I'm choosing

01:59:41   to identify the generate when they redid the styling

01:59:44   for the new generation, that is the most distinguishing

01:59:46   feature of the, it's the easiest way to tell the new one

01:59:48   from the old one, 'cause you can tell from the whole car,

01:59:50   right, but the easiest way to say is,

01:59:52   just look at the tail lights, does the spoiler go into them?

01:59:55   Or does it not?

01:59:56   - Right, and the one I like is the older one

01:59:58   where the spoiler does not go into the tail lights.

02:00:01   - Yeah, I don't like the styling of that one as much.

02:00:03   Not that I love the spoiler going into the taillights,

02:00:05   but that's again just my signifier for the overall car.

02:00:08   But I don't know, you get to test ride multiple.

02:00:10   They're both good choices, but like I said,

02:00:12   it would be weird to buy,

02:00:14   like this isn't small enough and fun enough to be an excuse.

02:00:19   Like if you wanted to get something like,

02:00:21   that's more like a go-kart, like, you know,

02:00:23   I don't know how to say Ariel Adam,

02:00:24   but because I think that actually is faster than your M5.

02:00:27   - Oh, very much so.

02:00:28   - 'Cause there's not really a car there.

02:00:30   - I know, but I'm just saying like,

02:00:31   - It's just like an engine in a seat.

02:00:32   - If you're going to get something slower than your M5,

02:00:35   it should be significantly lighter, significantly smaller,

02:00:38   significantly different experience.

02:00:40   Whereas I think the Cayman starts to push up into like,

02:00:43   well it is actually kind of luxurious inside

02:00:45   and it is actually not as light as even something like,

02:00:49   yeah obviously the aerial atom, but I think the--

02:00:52   - Like the Alpha 4C is interesting, right?

02:00:54   But all the reviews say that it's a lot of fun,

02:00:57   but that the interior really sucks.

02:00:59   - It's also ugly as sin.

02:01:00   - Yeah, it has its bad days.

02:01:04   - Yeah, I would test drive the Caymans

02:01:07   and see how much fun you think it is

02:01:08   and how much more tossable and small and nimble it feels.

02:01:11   Like, 'cause it's also a pretty wide car too, you know?

02:01:14   - Yeah, I mean, again, the reality is

02:01:16   I'm not really looking to buy another car right now.

02:01:19   Like, I'm perfectly happy with the setup I have now.

02:01:22   - Well, that actually begs one of the questions

02:01:24   I wanted to ask you, which is,

02:01:25   you are two thirds of the way through your lease,

02:01:27   is that right?

02:01:28   - Yeah, yeah, I mean, I gotta pick out

02:01:30   something new this winter, this coming winter,

02:01:32   like in almost a year, or decide to buy this one out.

02:01:35   - So sitting here now, and obviously a lot can change

02:01:38   in a year, even in the car industry,

02:01:40   what do you think you would do?

02:01:42   - I've said in the past, and I will continue to say that

02:01:46   if I had to replace my car today, for whatever reason,

02:01:49   if it's like stolen or something,

02:01:50   if I had to replace it today,

02:01:52   I would get basically the exact same thing.

02:01:53   Like I would tweak some of the options,

02:01:55   but I would get basically the exact same car.

02:01:57   Like I love this car.

02:01:59   I don't have any reason to look at anything else.

02:02:02   Like, there's every other car I've ever owned,

02:02:05   all of them, even the 1M,

02:02:07   every other car I've ever owned,

02:02:09   as I've owned it, I've looked at other cars

02:02:11   and been like, "Ooh, I would really like that instead."

02:02:14   Or, "I would really like to upgrade to that."

02:02:16   There was always something about it that really,

02:02:18   something about every car I've owned,

02:02:19   there was always something about it

02:02:19   that I wasn't really happy with.

02:02:21   With this car, that's not the case.

02:02:23   This is the first time, and I mean, God, it better be,

02:02:25   right? (laughs)

02:02:26   This is the first time where I have no major complaints.

02:02:30   I even have very few minor complaints.

02:02:33   My current idea is, absent any new information

02:02:37   about when an all-wheel drive version might become available,

02:02:40   I would probably just get another one just like it,

02:02:42   except change a couple of the options.

02:02:44   But that's really it.

02:02:45   Like, I'm not motivated at all to look around

02:02:51   at other models and change up the situation here.

02:02:54   It's just a-- it's a frickin' amazing car.

02:02:56   It's perfect in every way that I really need it to be.

02:02:59   And even the all-wheel drive,

02:03:02   like I don't really need the all-wheel drive.

02:03:04   I'm doing fine without it.

02:03:06   I should probably just buy this one out.

02:03:08   The M cars used and maintaining an M car out of warranty

02:03:14   is not a great use of money.

02:03:17   - I remember looking into getting an extended service plan

02:03:20   for my car and I talked to the BMW dealer about it

02:03:24   And they had a really helpful whiteboard sitting on a chair

02:03:29   in the finance manager's office.

02:03:33   And it was a plot, if you will, I guess a table of,

02:03:36   here's all the regular maintenance services one would need,

02:03:41   brakes, oil, clutch, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

02:03:45   And I remember vividly that for each of these line items,

02:03:50   and I'm making up numbers now,

02:03:51   it would say, "Oil, $150, M, 300.

02:03:55   Clutch, $2,000, M, 4,000," or whatever the numbers may be.

02:04:00   And it was insane.

02:04:03   So a new feature they have in Car and Driver these days

02:04:05   is showing you used cars,

02:04:08   how much they've come down in price

02:04:09   and what things to look out for,

02:04:10   like, oh, in this car, the struts always crack

02:04:13   and check for this and check that it doesn't have, you know.

02:04:15   And so the one in the back of the most recent issue

02:04:18   was a Ferrari 355, and they give kind of the maintenance

02:04:22   numbers of what you can expect to pay.

02:04:24   - Those are the worst. - For that thing.

02:04:26   (laughing)

02:04:27   - So you have BMW, then you have the M car,

02:04:30   and then you have these supercars,

02:04:33   it's just like another doubling of the price of everything.

02:04:36   Forget about oil changes and everything,

02:04:37   but this is just as ridiculous as you might think.

02:04:40   Then it's like, you know, the tires are expensive, fine.

02:04:44   These tires last, you know, 5,000 miles,

02:04:47   They're 700 bucks each, whatever.

02:04:48   It's a high performance tire, I understand that.

02:04:50   By the way, you can't get them changed on regular things

02:04:52   because regular tire changing equipment

02:04:54   will damage the magnesium wheels.

02:04:56   So you have to get them done just at the Ferrari dealer.

02:04:59   And everything costs a million dollars.

02:05:02   And the one that really got me is like,

02:05:04   we were talking to an owner,

02:05:04   like how much money should you set aside for this,

02:05:07   what is it now, like 10, 15 year old car, 20?

02:05:10   I don't even know how old it is, right?

02:05:11   How much money should you set aside for yearly maintenance?

02:05:13   He said, "Just set aside five grand a year."

02:05:15   And you're like, "Oh, that's not so bad, I guess."

02:05:17   five grand a year, right?

02:05:18   But then one of the line items at the bottom is,

02:05:21   every three years you need to change the timing belt

02:05:23   and it's seven grand.

02:05:24   (laughing)

02:05:25   - Oh, God.

02:05:26   (laughing)

02:05:27   - Because they have to pull the whole engine out of the car.

02:05:30   - To change the timing belt?

02:05:31   - Yes, every three years.

02:05:33   And by the way, some of them had brass valves

02:05:35   and if they had brass valves,

02:05:36   that caused the manifolds to overheat

02:05:38   and those were like 900 bucks each.

02:05:39   And it's just like, nothing on this car is under $500.

02:05:43   You know, the floor mats are always over $500.

02:05:46   It's like an every three years seven grand thing in addition to the five grand you set aside per year for an ancient Ferrari

02:05:53   So you got a lot of money on one of these cars

02:05:55   Yeah, and the supercars like you know, like you think you're not getting a hundred thousand miles out of that clutch

02:05:59   Oh, yeah

02:06:00   so they think the wheels don't like the front wheels will last fifteen thousand the back wheels will last about five thousand and each wheel is

02:06:05   700 bucks and

02:06:07   Yeah, so I mean, you know M cars are not nearly that bad

02:06:12   It's they're much closer to regular cars

02:06:14   But you don't have to pull the engine out of the car to do maintenance on it like that's the thing with the main engine cars

02:06:18   That's where you have to look out for the Cayman

02:06:20   It's a lot of things like a lot of things that a lot of regular maintenance

02:06:23   Does have a lot more labor just because it's so damn hard to get at the engine. Yeah

02:06:28   We should talk about my car now before we go. All right, bring us back down to earth. No, I mean my Ferrari

02:06:34   Eyes on the prize here. So yeah your turbo Ferrari

02:06:39   What is this my car is always the sort of entry-level?

02:06:43   mid-engine Ferrari and it started with the 348 and I've sorry followed it through the whole range of things has to go with threes and

02:06:49   Changing to fours and so on and so forth and as I mentioned to Drance on Twitter

02:06:54   Every time they introduce a new one starting from the 348 and through the five comes out 360 the 430 like the whole the whole

02:07:01   Way up the chain

02:07:02   There's always something weird about the styling of the car that when I first go and I see it I go

02:07:07   "Mmm, what did they do with whatever it is?" and then it always ends up growing on me.

02:07:11   And so here is the Ferrari 488 which is replacing the 458.

02:07:15   It looks a lot like a 458 just like that, you know, it's less of a departure than the 458 was from the 430.

02:07:21   But it's got some weird stuff in it. Did you hear? Honestly, this looks pretty good to me.

02:07:26   I'm looking at the Wired article on it.

02:07:28   Well, so the shape of the car is great. Like I have no qualms about the overall shape of the car.

02:07:32   That's why I always like this car.

02:07:34   That's why I like it better than like the the front engine the current thing is the f12 and the 599

02:07:40   You know I like it better than than the supercars like the f50 f40

02:07:43   La Ferrari because they always kind of look alien

02:07:46   This is the car like because it's the balance between you know

02:07:49   I like the mid engine shape and I like I like the fact that it's not super duper

02:07:53   Exotical I do always kind of admire the super top-end Ferrari cars, which is all I want to see La Ferrari on top gear

02:08:00   But the weird aspect on this one I think is the little the little hip inlet treatment

02:08:05   And that seems weird to me and again these cars

02:08:08   Always look so different in person sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse

02:08:13   So I think I'll have to wait until I see one of these in person, but I do really like this overall shape

02:08:17   I think I like the overall shape even better than the 458

02:08:20   But I don't know about those the shoulder inlet the hip inlet whatever you want to call above the rear wheels

02:08:26   I think it works for me and and overall the front end and the back end I think are both very good as well

02:08:31   I I would say overall this is one of the better-looking Ferraris I've seen in the last decade

02:08:35   Because I I have not liked most of the way they the way most of them look I most of them to me have looked

02:08:41   either bland or

02:08:43   Completely ridiculous and this one I think kind of falls in the middle like it looks like a normal nice fast car

02:08:49   And it has some some strong accents, but it doesn't look totally ridiculous to me. I would agree

02:08:54   It's going a little bit into Lamborghini territory where it starts to look more masculine than feminine you know and

02:09:00   So like that's what I've always loved about the Ferrari cars is they always are kind of like smooth and nicely sculpted

02:09:06   And they don't do the thing where they want to feel they feel like that look like a transformer alright

02:09:10   That's why you know

02:09:11   Little kids bedrooms they have Lamborghinis on the wall, but they look like crazy

02:09:15   They look like you know a Gillette razor handle right

02:09:19   Crazy fins and slats and stuff like that whereas the Ferrari ones were always much more elegant like even if you just look like you know

02:09:26   the testeros or

02:09:27   348 yeah, they have the whole side strakes and everything

02:09:30   but it's it's a more elegant treatment than you know like the Aventador which totally looks like a transformer right and

02:09:35   This one has a little element of the sort of techno futurist

02:09:39   Transformer kind of things even more than I think the LaFerrari does LaFerrari is a little bit smoother than this

02:09:45   But like I said the overall shape and proportions where the wheels are where the overall shape of the car if you just draped the whole

02:09:51   Car and covered all the inlets. I really do like that

02:09:53   I like how they've refined the front end of it to look now the turbo engine

02:09:57   That's you know, it's another one of those end of the era

02:10:00   It's like when they got rid of the big, you know ball shifter with the metal gate on it, right, you know, yeah

02:10:05   you know the time comes and goes and you know, I understand like

02:10:10   can't deny the turbo but I

02:10:13   I assume, if you look at the things that Ferrari concentrates on in its cars, it seems one

02:10:19   of the things they're not willing to compromise thus far is that it has to sound like a Ferrari.

02:10:23   And I can imagine quite a lot of the things Ferrari does go towards "Yeah, but this sounds

02:10:29   better."

02:10:30   Because that's part of the whole experience of owning the car.

02:10:33   The turbo is going to change how the car sounds, but I'm hoping if any manufacturer is going

02:10:37   to have an interesting nice stirring engine noise from an engine with a turbo.

02:10:45   Ferrari will figure out a way to do it but this may be the end of that sound I love to

02:10:50   hear that makes my head turn whenever I'm driving around here.

02:10:53   I can pick it out from a mile away.

02:10:55   That's the sound of a Ferrari engine naturally aspirated V8 just revving up some crazy person.

02:11:01   Whether they're behind me, in front of me, or in oncoming traffic I always hear it before

02:11:05   I see it and that's the sound I want when I get mine which will never actually happen.

02:11:11   Buy me a separate house so I can keep my Ferrari in.

02:11:14   Just take down the damn tree.

02:11:16   And a staff to maintain it.

02:11:19   Yeah, you gotta like also buy a dealer to put next to your house to service it.

02:11:24   Yeah, because you can't just take it to anybody.

02:11:26   Yeah, and everything costs a bazillion dollars.

02:11:28   That's why people don't drive these freaking things like.

02:11:30   Don't you realize if I drive it I'm getting inching closer to the next scheduled 10 grand

02:11:33   maintenance on my Ferrari. Yeah, it's like you can take it to the grocery store and that's

02:11:38   like total cost of ownership of $1,000 for that trip. It's crazy. It has consumables.

02:11:45   Everything in it is consumable. Yeah, the whole car. Every car is consumable but they

02:11:49   take it to another level in the supercar territory here. Yeah, because the wheels are like, well,

02:11:57   they're going to be gone shortly and each wheel is super expensive. I wonder if you

02:12:00   get a Ferrari, will they sell it to you with like all season tires?

02:12:07   Maybe a cargo net for the hood, trunk, whatever that is?

02:12:11   Is there even any cargo space?

02:12:12   Yeah, the front.

02:12:14   Yeah, but they've scooped it down to make these big like, you know, like a Viper almost,

02:12:18   these big like scoop things.

02:12:19   I was gonna say, done for aero reasons.

02:12:20   I'm sure there's a fitted set of luggage you can buy.

02:12:23   Yeah, for another ten grand.

02:12:25   Yeah, no, every supercar has a fitted leather luggage that goes into the little cubbies

02:12:29   that they give you for...

02:12:30   (laughing)

02:12:32   - Oh God, this is ultimately why I don't fantasize

02:12:35   about owning a supercar, because none of that

02:12:37   sounds appealing to me at all.

02:12:39   Like, I thought it was even too annoying

02:12:41   to have the 1M in the 3 Series.

02:12:44   - But this would be your fun car.

02:12:45   If you wanted to get a fun runabout car,

02:12:48   this would not feel intimidated by your M5.

02:12:51   It would be like, yeah, the M5 is my regular

02:12:54   kind of boring car, and then when I wanna have fun,

02:12:56   I hop in this and I only do that,

02:12:58   like put 500 miles on it a year.

02:13:01   - Yeah, but see, the whole reason why I like the M5

02:13:04   is because it is a really amped up version

02:13:09   of a normal family sedan.

02:13:11   And so my thing is, I don't really do anything unique

02:13:16   or fun with my cars.

02:13:19   I don't go to tracks, I'm not like driving

02:13:21   along mountain roads or anything for the most part.

02:13:24   I'm doing very boring things.

02:13:26   I'm driving around the suburbs going grocery shopping.

02:13:28   - Yeah, but even just doing boring things in this

02:13:31   would be different than doing boring things in your M5.

02:13:34   - The reason I like the M5 is because

02:13:36   my life is doing extremely boring things

02:13:40   in a way that's really fun to me.

02:13:42   And so that, like, the M5 is,

02:13:44   I love doing boring things in that car.

02:13:48   If I had like a supercar like the Ferrari,

02:13:50   I would first of all feel infinite stress about it.

02:13:54   - Well, this Ferrari is not really a supercar.

02:13:57   The LaFerrari is a supercar.

02:13:58   I know they wanna call it a hypercar,

02:14:00   and that these are supercars,

02:14:00   but I think we should not allow

02:14:03   this name inflation to take place.

02:14:05   The entry-level Ferrari,

02:14:06   I guess you're gonna call it California, the entry-level.

02:14:08   - Isn't this like 240 grand or something?

02:14:10   - Ah, I don't know.

02:14:12   I would say this is not a supercar.

02:14:15   - I beg to differ.

02:14:16   - Yeah, I don't know about that, John.

02:14:19   - Put it this way, the McLaren P1 is a supercar.

02:14:21   the MP12 whatever C thing is not a supercar.

02:14:25   - The MP4 12C?

02:14:27   - That's not a supercar with P1 is.

02:14:28   - It's not?

02:14:29   - And the Ferrari, like, the top of the line

02:14:31   are the supercars.

02:14:32   They kept trying to change the name of like,

02:14:33   oh, those are hypercars.

02:14:34   What is every Ferrari a supercar?

02:14:36   No.

02:14:37   - I don't think I'd buy your argument.

02:14:38   - Anyway, yes, it's very expensive,

02:14:40   but like, it's the same thing as like,

02:14:41   if you got a convertible.

02:14:42   Like, if you got a convertible,

02:14:44   you can get a convertible version.

02:14:45   - No, I can't, I'm bald and I burn easily.

02:14:47   - No, I know.

02:14:47   But like, that would be a different driving experience.

02:14:50   Like, the experience of driving is,

02:14:51   even if you drive it in the same way,

02:14:52   the sensations and sounds of driving the exact same distance

02:14:56   and speed in this car would be so different.

02:14:57   Not to mention the whole idea of like the thing that you're,

02:15:00   like the view out of this thing

02:15:01   and the view behind this thing.

02:15:03   And like just, it's a different experience driving this car

02:15:06   than it is driving something that's like,

02:15:08   it feels like a different type of, you know,

02:15:10   like that's what you're looking for.

02:15:11   - Is there a view behind you?

02:15:12   Can you see anything out the rear window?

02:15:14   - Barely, right?

02:15:15   But that's part of the experience.

02:15:17   Like it will feel different.

02:15:18   And it's kind of the same way you have the, the 1M,

02:15:21   like that it's giving you a different experience.

02:15:23   That's why I think a super cheap convertible anything

02:15:26   would be different enough from your M5

02:15:27   that you may consider it the fun car.

02:15:29   And then you could say, well, yes,

02:15:30   it's half the speed of my M5, but it's a convertible.

02:15:33   That makes it very different.

02:15:35   - Yeah, that's fair.

02:15:36   That's why the slightly older Cayman

02:15:40   is an interesting option to me,

02:15:41   because so it's smaller, lighter, mid-engined, lower.

02:15:44   But I think the problem, when I had the 1M,

02:15:48   The problem was I never wanted to drive the 328 anymore.

02:15:52   I couldn't balance it.

02:15:53   I only wanted to drive the 1M because I have family

02:15:57   obligations and space reasons, and I was stressed out about

02:15:59   ever getting a single little scratch on it because it was

02:16:01   this irreplaceable, unique, limited edition car.

02:16:05   It stressed me out too much to own it, and it was always a

02:16:07   struggle to balance that.

02:16:09   That's why I think my ultimate best choice is to just keep

02:16:13   buying really nice four-door sedans.

02:16:15   Plus, I never liked sitting basically on the ground.

02:16:18   You already are on the ground.

02:16:20   No, this is lower than that.

02:16:22   I was talking about Marco's height.

02:16:24   No, any of these, including most likely the Caymans,

02:16:27   you know, any of these,

02:16:28   like you're basically sitting on the street.

02:16:30   You can just get a phone book

02:16:31   and you can sit on those phone books

02:16:33   they deliver to your house

02:16:34   and you have a reason to use them for something.

02:16:36   (door slams)