102: Marco Is Not a Platform


00:00:00   - No.

00:00:00   - Oh no.

00:00:02   - Oh no.

00:00:03   (John groans)

00:00:04   (electronic beeping)

00:00:07   - All right, so you wanna do some follow-up?

00:00:09   We can start with handwriting recognition,

00:00:11   which I'm assuming is more of John's follow-up?

00:00:14   - Yeah, I don't know why none of us thought of this,

00:00:17   probably because we're all Westerners.

00:00:20   But the one thing we didn't talk about with iPads

00:00:22   and styluses or styli is that handwriting recognition

00:00:28   Good text input with a with a pen is good for people who don't write with

00:00:33   Roman characters who have tons and tons of characters Chinese Japanese

00:00:37   It's pain in the butt to enter those with the keyboard because they have to have these crazy multi-level keyboards, but you you know

00:00:43   Tap one key then tap another tap another work your way down to the actual character you want or combine multiple taps to make one

00:00:49   thing

00:00:50   Whereas these people know how to draw it with you just gave them a pen

00:00:52   So if you can recognize that it's actually way more convenient than trying to use a keyboard

00:00:56   So that I mean, I don't know if that's harder or easier than recognizing. I assume it's harder than recognizing, you know

00:01:03   regular Roman characters that we have

00:01:06   But it's definitely if you can get it to work

00:01:09   It's definitely more convenient for the person inputting the characters than hunting through some crazy keyboard

00:01:14   Yeah, absolutely. I will say that a friend a friend of mine will Haynes

00:01:19   He had shown me

00:01:22   He lives in Tokyo despite having grown up in Australia and he had shown me the Japanese keyboard

00:01:28   I'm sure there's like a name for like kanji or something like that and that's probably wrong, too

00:01:31   But anyway, he had shown me the Japanese keyboard which involves

00:01:34   you know drawing these little characters on the bottom of the screen very much like the palm was way back in the day and

00:01:41   As someone who has never seen that before it was amazing

00:01:45   It was extremely cool and I could see how having a stylus would make it that much better

00:01:48   Monk bent in the chat room is telling us that

00:01:52   Very few people write with characters these days and most most of the young people because everything is digital

00:01:57   Just deal with the crappy input systems

00:01:59   So it could be that everyone just gets over this and they forget how to write their traditional characters. I don't know

00:02:04   I mean like

00:02:05   We've been getting on the people on the Far East have been getting along without this for a long time with these with these various

00:02:10   hacks of keyboards that have hierarchies to them or

00:02:13   Graffiti like systems where you do a series of strokes to sort of narrow down and you know

00:02:17   It's kind of like autocomplete for individual characters, which represent entire

00:02:21   words or ideas.

00:02:24   So we may already be past that threshold.

00:02:29   This is where we need someone from the Far East

00:02:31   to come on the program and tell us whether this is something

00:02:33   that people actually like.

00:02:34   But it's so hard to say how--

00:02:36   I mean, we'll talk about this later when

00:02:38   we talk about Apple's earnings-- how things play in countries

00:02:40   other than the United States and what those markets really want.

00:02:43   And it's very difficult to tell how much of what Apple does

00:02:46   is influenced by people and cultures

00:02:49   that we know nothing about.

00:02:51   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:02:52   As a quick aside, Marco, Tif's car has the iDrive

00:02:56   with handwriting recognition, is that correct?

00:02:58   - It does, yes.

00:02:59   - Do you use it ever?

00:03:01   - I tried it, I think once, and it wasn't really worth it

00:03:05   because it was actually slower than just using the wheel

00:03:09   to go around picking the letters.

00:03:10   'Cause you have to draw the characters one at a time,

00:03:12   so you write the character, and then you wait,

00:03:13   and then it recognizes it, and then you keep going.

00:03:15   And so, just because of the lag inherent in those steps,

00:03:20   It just wasn't really any faster than using the wheel,

00:03:23   so I just use the wheel now when I drive her car.

00:03:26   - Fair enough.

00:03:27   I mean, it's not a one-to-one comparison,

00:03:28   but it was the closest that I could think of

00:03:31   off the top of my head.

00:03:32   - You could possibly argue it's better for safety

00:03:34   that you're not looking at the screen as much.

00:03:36   In practice, that's not true.

00:03:38   In practice, it is just as distracting as using the wheel,

00:03:40   and you still have to look at the screen just as much,

00:03:42   so I just try not to enter navigation directions

00:03:45   while I'm moving.

00:03:46   - Yeah, that seems like the smartest approach.

00:03:48   - Yeah.

00:03:49   - All right, so we had a very interesting email

00:03:51   from Matt Chandler and I really wanted to talk about this

00:03:55   and then I thought, well, maybe that's mean of me.

00:03:58   And then someone else who is not me

00:04:00   and I'm guessing is not Marco added it to the show notes.

00:04:03   - This is why Marco should look at the show notes

00:04:05   before the show.

00:04:06   (laughing)

00:04:06   So he'll know when he has a question that's directed to him.

00:04:09   - Oh, you picked out this one?

00:04:10   Oh boy, this will be good.

00:04:12   - Yeah.

00:04:12   - Okay, so from Matt Chandler,

00:04:15   "I listened to Marco on the talk show,

00:04:17   episode now it's all floppy where he discussed how Apple's feedback system is

00:04:21   quote extremely hostile quote because among other reasons you get no feedback

00:04:25   or response from Apple when you file a radar I was surprised by this as some of

00:04:29   my friends and I have filed bug reports for overcast both through Twitter

00:04:32   Twitter and email and have never received feedback any feedback no form

00:04:36   response tweet or favorite on Twitter this didn't bother me as I didn't expect

00:04:40   a response but I wondered why Marco called this behavior by Apple extremely

00:04:44   hostile while he takes the same approach with Overcast. Yes, Overcast is smaller,

00:04:47   but it certainly receives much less feedback as well. Thanks for the great

00:04:51   show and Marco, thanks for the great work on Overcast.

00:04:53   I can answer this one if you want. The reason I put it in here is not because necessarily I

00:04:57   thought Marco had to answer it, but I felt like anybody answered. Casey, do you want to answer it?

00:05:01   Marco, I know can answer it. I can answer it. Can anyone in the audience not answer this?

00:05:05   (laughing)

00:05:08   I mean, I'd be curious to hear both of your answers.

00:05:11   To me, it seems pretty obvious that even in operation

00:05:16   the size of Overcast, if one were to acknowledge

00:05:19   every single bug request and report and feature requests,

00:05:23   that that would be a tremendous mountain of just thanks

00:05:28   and okay and I got it and dupe and et cetera.

00:05:32   And I can see why Marco wouldn't want to do that.

00:05:36   But the difference is Marco's business isn't,

00:05:39   well, I don't know,

00:05:40   I already feel like this is a weak argument,

00:05:41   but Marco's business isn't to make

00:05:44   other people's bug reports his job.

00:05:48   Whereas when you're providing developer tools,

00:05:51   that kind of is your job.

00:05:53   - John.

00:05:54   - Yeah, what was your answer, John?

00:05:55   - Oh, you want my answer now?

00:05:56   Well, I think Matt Chandler knows the answer too.

00:05:58   Yes, Overcast is smaller.

00:06:00   You think?

00:06:01   Is it a little bit slower than Apple?

00:06:02   maybe a little bit smaller than Apple, I'm not sure.

00:06:04   We have to check Marco's earnings for this year

00:06:05   to see if he pulled in $18 billion in profit this quarter.

00:06:10   I don't think he did, but we'll check.

00:06:12   - I didn't quite hit that target, no.

00:06:14   - Yes, Overcast is smaller,

00:06:15   but it certainly receives much less feedback as well.

00:06:17   Exactly, it is smaller,

00:06:19   and proportionally receives less feedback.

00:06:20   How much smaller than Apple is Overcast?

00:06:23   And what proportion of his thing, you know?

00:06:27   So that's one thing.

00:06:27   Obviously it's pretty close to smaller.

00:06:28   It's one person.

00:06:29   He would spend all his time just dealing with bug reports.

00:06:31   in a second, in case you already covered it.

00:06:33   He's not a platform.

00:06:34   He is not publishing APIs for people to write code against.

00:06:38   He has no developers.

00:06:39   There is no overcast developer program.

00:06:41   There is no MarkerArmin developer program.

00:06:43   People are not paying for a membership

00:06:46   to a thing to be supported.

00:06:48   You're merely a customer and sending a report.

00:06:49   Now, all that said, that's not to say

00:06:52   that he shouldn't give responses,

00:06:55   form responses, personal responses, or whatever,

00:06:57   to the degree that he feels like he can

00:06:59   do sort of the Daniel Jowkut,

00:07:01   I give you amazing exceptional customer support,

00:07:04   he should by all means, it is a good thing to do that.

00:07:07   But on the list of priorities,

00:07:09   responding to every single bug report

00:07:12   and giving an acknowledgement that it was received

00:07:15   are probably pretty low for a one person shop

00:07:17   that's doing all the stuff that Marco is doing.

00:07:20   So I don't say that it's like he shouldn't send a response

00:07:25   and people shouldn't expect one,

00:07:27   but the explanation for why there was no response

00:07:29   and why he might say it's extremely hostile for Apple

00:07:32   to not send a response is fairly clear.

00:07:34   It's hostile for Apple because Apple does not have

00:07:37   any constraints that would make it have to be

00:07:39   such a big black hole.

00:07:41   We know that, I mean, look at App Review.

00:07:44   They're hiring people to look at every single

00:07:45   of these hoejillion apps that come in.

00:07:48   If Apple wanted to do this and listed as a priority,

00:07:51   they have more than enough money and resources

00:07:55   and expertise to do this.

00:07:56   So that's why it's hostile for Apple

00:07:59   because from Apple it's like a choice.

00:08:00   It's like a prioritization of something

00:08:02   that we think should be much more important

00:08:03   to Apple than it is.

00:08:05   And we know they have the resources to do it.

00:08:06   In Marco's case, you could still be angry at him

00:08:08   because you got exceptional support

00:08:09   but from this other one person operation

00:08:11   because they value support more than he does.

00:08:13   But if Marco shifts to do support differently,

00:08:16   he's got to pull from someplace else.

00:08:18   So what other part of Marco's business do you think

00:08:20   he should sacrifice to make sure

00:08:21   that everybody who sends a bug report gets a reply?

00:08:24   I, you know, that's, these are trade-offs that he makes

00:08:27   and you can argue whether they're the right trade-offs

00:08:29   or whether you like that kind of company,

00:08:30   but I don't think you should be confused

00:08:32   about why Marco can call Apple extremely hostile

00:08:36   for doing the same thing he does,

00:08:37   because he's not Apple and they're so different

00:08:39   than different standards apply.

00:08:40   - So Marco.

00:08:42   - This is gonna be possibly a little controversial.

00:08:46   Not that I should be that surprised,

00:08:48   or anybody who knows me should be that surprised

00:08:50   by me previously saying something I'm about to say with that.

00:08:53   (laughing)

00:08:55   - This should be good.

00:08:55   Wait, let me go make some popcorn.

00:08:56   Hold that thought.

00:08:57   - The sad truth is that it is not worth

00:09:02   answering your email.

00:09:03   You plural, not like you this guy, you everybody.

00:09:08   In general, on average, it is not worth

00:09:11   answering your email.

00:09:12   Now let me go into why that is.

00:09:13   I don't say this to be a jerk.

00:09:16   I'm saying this literally as like

00:09:18   just simple time constraints and economics.

00:09:22   So here's how this works.

00:09:24   This morning, so usually I go through the overcast

00:09:27   feedback email in the evening or like before bed

00:09:32   on the iPad, I'll go through it a lot there

00:09:34   because I respond to almost none of it.

00:09:39   Really, almost none.

00:09:40   I respond to maybe three or four emails a day

00:09:43   from that account.

00:09:44   Since last night when I last cleared it out,

00:09:47   I've received 207 and there's still three more hours today

00:09:51   before I go to bed.

00:09:52   So I expect to receive maybe 220, 250,

00:09:56   we'll see what happens.

00:09:57   That's pretty typical.

00:09:59   Most days I receive between 60 and 200.

00:10:02   I'm getting a little more now

00:10:03   'cause there's some sync bugs that I'm trying to squash.

00:10:06   When you buy my app, so I'm a one person company,

00:10:08   I blogged about how much I made,

00:10:10   it was like 160,000 before expenses and taxes

00:10:13   and all that stuff last year.

00:10:15   So that's roughly what I make.

00:10:17   It's like, it's one developer's good salary.

00:10:20   It's not stunningly great,

00:10:22   it's just a good developer salary

00:10:23   for the level of experience I have.

00:10:25   That's not so much that it would make

00:10:27   a lot of financial sense for me

00:10:28   to hire a support person, for instance.

00:10:31   And I've tried, I have tried

00:10:34   to outsource support services in the past.

00:10:36   I've had very mixed results with them,

00:10:39   and I question whether that was money well spent at all.

00:10:43   I could also attempt to answer more emails

00:10:47   by using TextExpander to make my few form answers

00:10:51   and just send those to everybody.

00:10:53   And I did that for the first couple of months of Overcast.

00:10:56   And I question whether that's better

00:10:57   than not answering them at all.

00:10:59   Because, and I should point out on Hello Internet

00:11:02   they had a similar conversation with this a few months back.

00:11:04   You know, is something that you're pretty sure

00:11:08   is like a form response, a template response,

00:11:10   is that actually better than no response at all?

00:11:13   Like, is a response that is clearly insincere

00:11:17   and that I didn't put a whole lot of time into,

00:11:19   is that really a good thing?

00:11:21   Like that's up for debate as well.

00:11:23   The simple fact is, when you get 200 support emails a day

00:11:28   and you're one person and, you know,

00:11:31   my job is not answering email, my job is making the product

00:11:34   and making it work for everybody.

00:11:35   And responding to email, and this isn't just support email,

00:11:38   this is email in general.

00:11:39   Responding to email is one of the least

00:11:42   time efficient things you can do.

00:11:44   Like it really, like, and of course it varies

00:11:47   depending on why you're responding to the email,

00:11:48   who you're responding to and for what.

00:11:49   But in general, responding to email

00:11:53   is an extremely inefficient use of limited time

00:11:57   because you are taking your time to produce something

00:12:01   that's only ever gonna go to one person.

00:12:03   Whereas if I spent that time instead fixing the bugs

00:12:08   that everyone's complaining about,

00:12:10   then they're fixed for everyone.

00:12:11   Or if I can make the product better in some way for everyone

00:12:16   that's way better use of that time

00:12:19   than responding to every email one by one saying,

00:12:22   thanks for the report, I'm looking into it,

00:12:23   or thanks, I'm about to fix this,

00:12:24   or this is fixing the next version,

00:12:25   or the version's pending approval.

00:12:27   It's such a better use of time.

00:12:30   In an ideal world, you would have time to do both.

00:12:33   I recognize that.

00:12:34   But this is not an ideal world, this is reality.

00:12:36   And in reality, when you have an app that is free up front,

00:12:40   and at the most you can ever hope to make from somebody

00:12:42   is $3.50 before tax, it's really hard to justify

00:12:46   spending a ton of time on answering individual emails.

00:12:51   And I knew that going into it, I knew that for Instapaper.

00:12:54   So the entire app is designed in such a way

00:12:58   that it sets expectations accordingly.

00:13:02   You'll notice in the app, nowhere does it say support.

00:13:05   It only says feedback.

00:13:08   And on the feedback link, first, before it lets you email it

00:13:11   it shows you a page with an FAQ and known bugs

00:13:14   and what's being fixed in this version,

00:13:16   what's being fixed in the next version?

00:13:17   It shows you this page, so try to address

00:13:19   what you're about to tell me,

00:13:20   so maybe you don't have to tell me.

00:13:22   Maybe you can help yourself,

00:13:23   maybe you can save yourself the time sending me the email.

00:13:25   Certainly it saves me the time

00:13:26   having to read it or answer it.

00:13:29   And it says right there, I will read every email,

00:13:34   which by the way, even that takes a lot of time,

00:13:37   a lot more time than I would have expected

00:13:38   when I wrote that.

00:13:40   I read every email, and I say I will read every email,

00:13:42   but I also say, I'm just one person with limited time,

00:13:45   and so I cannot guarantee your response.

00:13:49   And the result of that is I respond to almost none of them

00:13:54   because I literally don't have the time.

00:13:56   I would so much rather spend that time fixing the bugs

00:14:01   and making the app better for everyone

00:14:03   than responding to one person.

00:14:04   And I know that sounds cold and I know that sounds harsh,

00:14:07   but that's the reality.

00:14:09   That's like when you're paying so little for apps,

00:14:12   that's kind of part of it.

00:14:14   That's kind of what you have to expect from that.

00:14:16   That's all involved in this.

00:14:17   And so the reason I don't answer my email most of the time

00:14:22   is because, it's not because I'm a jerk,

00:14:26   at least in my opinion,

00:14:27   you can make your own evaluation of that.

00:14:29   It's not because I'm trying to be a jerk.

00:14:30   It's because it is really,

00:14:32   I've decided it really is just an incredibly bad use of time.

00:14:37   And I know it's not gonna please everybody,

00:14:39   but I think it will please the most people overall

00:14:42   for me to be doing things that make the app better

00:14:43   for everyone rather than spending three hours a day

00:14:46   answering email.

00:14:47   - I don't remember if I've ever told this story publicly,

00:14:51   but I feel like I have.

00:14:54   I have a couple of thoughts.

00:14:55   First, I remember vividly that I,

00:14:59   when you and I kind of got reacquainted, so to speak,

00:15:03   'cause we were old friends, kind of fell out of touch,

00:15:05   not in an angry way, just fell out of touch,

00:15:07   and then we were starting to get back in touch,

00:15:09   And I would send emails to you periodically.

00:15:12   And this was when Tumblr was really starting to take off.

00:15:15   And then the Marco Arment was starting to become like a thing

00:15:18   more than it was just a person.

00:15:20   And I would send you emails, Marco, and I would never get a reply.

00:15:24   Or I would get a reply really, really late.

00:15:27   I remember one time Aaron and I were on our way to New York when this was when

00:15:30   you were at Tumblr, because we ended up visiting you at Tumblr, we were on our

00:15:33   way to New York to visit and I think I tweeted about it or something like that.

00:15:37   And you were like, wait, you're on your way to New York.

00:15:39   And I said, yes, I emailed you about that

00:15:41   like two months ago.

00:15:42   You said you did.

00:15:43   And so, and God did it annoy me so much at the time.

00:15:47   But then fast forward a few years

00:15:50   and suddenly I'm on a podcast and we get email.

00:15:55   Oh, do we get email?

00:15:56   In fact, we even got an email

00:15:58   about how we tell people not to send us email.

00:16:00   - Yes, we did. (laughs)

00:16:02   - Which actually made some really good points,

00:16:04   but I couldn't help but laugh at the irony of it.

00:16:07   But anyway, and so I don't know how to explain it

00:16:12   other than however much email that you, the listener, gets.

00:16:17   There's a decent chance that those of us on the show

00:16:22   get more than that and Marco gets more than that still.

00:16:25   And the other thought I had is how many shows

00:16:29   across how many podcasts have talked about

00:16:32   how email is such a problem?

00:16:34   There was that wonderful episode of Hello Internet.

00:16:36   I think Mike and I have talked about this on analog.

00:16:38   God knows that Merlin has talked about this constantly

00:16:42   and for good reason.

00:16:44   The reason everyone complains and moans about email

00:16:48   is because email is kind of an inherently selfish thing

00:16:52   that nobody really deliberately signs up for

00:16:55   and it just kind of happens to them.

00:16:57   And so how you deal with that, you do the best you can

00:17:02   and that's what Marco's doing.

00:17:04   - Yeah, that's really it.

00:17:06   Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk

00:17:08   by not responding to most of the email I get.

00:17:10   It's almost like a defense mechanism.

00:17:13   I have to defend my time and attention

00:17:16   because if I did respond to all that email,

00:17:19   all these bug fixes and improvements and things I'm making

00:17:23   would all take longer to come out

00:17:25   and I wouldn't be able to do as much.

00:17:27   - You could spend your entire day just doing email

00:17:30   because remember that email, once you respond,

00:17:32   Now you're engaging with that person.

00:17:33   And from that person's perspective, it's just them and you.

00:17:36   And from your perspective,

00:17:37   you're holding now 200 simultaneous conversations,

00:17:40   maintaining state in each of those conversations,

00:17:42   remembering who that person is

00:17:43   and what they said previously.

00:17:45   Basically imagine, you get 200 support emails today.

00:17:48   If you responded to all 200,

00:17:50   then those 200 send the response back.

00:17:52   Then tomorrow starts and you get another 200

00:17:53   and you start responding to those.

00:17:55   You will spend 100% of your time conversing over email

00:17:59   with people who have problems with your $5 application,

00:18:02   right?

00:18:03   And you are just one person.

00:18:05   And someone in the chat room says, I'm describing a CRM.

00:18:07   Says, yes, when you have a staff of people, you can do that.

00:18:10   But for a small business, with one person doing

00:18:14   all of the work, if that one person said,

00:18:17   I really need to support my customers,

00:18:19   that's all that one person would ever do.

00:18:21   They would never fix a bug, never write

00:18:23   a new version of a program, never create a program,

00:18:26   never do anything else, never do a podcast,

00:18:28   never have any sort of extracurricular activities.

00:18:30   They would just spend all their waking hours

00:18:32   conversing with individuals over email

00:18:33   about the problems they're having with their application

00:18:35   and never have any time to investigate them.

00:18:37   And so maybe you could say,

00:18:38   well, you should expand your company.

00:18:40   You shouldn't have a one-person company or whatever.

00:18:41   But the origin of this question is about hypocrisy.

00:18:45   How can you be so angry about Apple

00:18:47   doing something that you yourself do?

00:18:49   It's different context.

00:18:51   The conditions are entirely different.

00:18:53   Therefore, the conclusions are different.

00:18:55   - Absolutely.

00:18:56   And the input that the email gives me is very valuable.

00:18:59   Like, by the emails alone, the emails kind of help me decide,

00:19:04   like if I have a few big features that I want to do next,

00:19:07   the emails decide what comes first.

00:19:09   And the emails decide things like, for example,

00:19:12   I've mentioned this on Twitter a couple times,

00:19:15   my big feature plan over this winter was to do streaming.

00:19:19   And I started streaming a little bit last fall,

00:19:21   and I haven't worked on it since for two reasons.

00:19:24   Number one is that they're keeping other things

00:19:26   that keep coming up, bug fixes, sync issues,

00:19:29   watch kit, stuff like that.

00:19:31   But then number two is that by reading the email

00:19:34   and by reading all the tweets, which is even more,

00:19:37   you know, even more big stuff coming in that way,

00:19:40   I can see very clearly that streaming

00:19:43   is not what I should be doing next.

00:19:44   What I need to be doing next, which is what I am doing next,

00:19:48   is auto-delete control.

00:19:51   That right now, the app just deletes an episode

00:19:52   when you're done with it, 'cause that's how I listen

00:19:53   and I don't care. Like once I'm done with it, I never want to hear it again. Like that's

00:19:57   it, I'm done. And I thought that's how the app could always work. It keeps things very

00:20:01   simple with like the different states an episode can be in and things like that. It keeps a

00:20:05   lot of things very simple. That is by far and away the number one request, the number

00:20:11   one complaint, and the number one reason people choose not to use my app is that I don't have

00:20:15   that control, the finer control over whether something gets deleted or not and when it

00:20:19   gets deleted. By far, that's way more important than streaming based on what people are telling

00:20:24   me and what they've been telling me for months. And so, you know, I wouldn't have known that

00:20:28   had it not been for the email. At the same time, I get, I would say, literally 40 emails

00:20:34   a day about that. And, again, for a while, I was replying to all of them. It took hours.

00:20:40   It takes long enough just to read them, even that. Like, and I said, I'll read all my email.

00:20:46   I'm not necessarily sure that will always be the case.

00:20:48   I can definitely see a future in which I say

00:20:51   I can't even keep up with reading it all anymore.

00:20:54   But even that, like reading it takes probably,

00:20:59   probably an order of magnitude less time

00:21:01   than responding to it.

00:21:03   And even that's hard enough to keep up with.

00:21:04   That's how much email I'm talking about.

00:21:06   - All right, let's talk about something

00:21:08   that's a little more positive than how much email we all get.

00:21:12   Do you have any ideas, Marco?

00:21:13   - Well, it's not email.

00:21:15   It is Squarespace.

00:21:17   Squarespace is the all-in-one platform

00:21:19   that makes it fast and easy to create

00:21:20   your own professional website, portfolio, and online store.

00:21:23   For a free trial and 10% off,

00:21:25   visit squarespace.com and enter offer code ATP at checkout.

00:21:28   Now they emailed me something earlier today.

00:21:32   This is kind of cool.

00:21:33   So I guess the Super Bowl's coming up pretty soon.

00:21:35   - That's correct.

00:21:36   - Yeah, so that's football, right?

00:21:39   No, I--

00:21:40   - Oh, God, it's also Sunday.

00:21:42   Did you know that? - They have winter there,

00:21:43   right?

00:21:43   - Oh God, I hate you.

00:21:45   - So, you know Jeff Bridges, the dude?

00:21:48   He has partnered with Squarespace

00:21:51   to bring his project to life.

00:21:52   It is dreamingwithjeff.com.

00:21:56   That's dreamingwithjeff.com.

00:21:58   This is an actual project.

00:21:59   This is not just like a PR stunt.

00:22:01   It's an actual project created by Jeff Bridges

00:22:03   with his friends in various locations in LA.

00:22:07   He created an album of unique and relaxing sounds,

00:22:10   guided meditations, and stories designed

00:22:12   to lull you to sleep.

00:22:13   This includes tracks such as A Glass of Water, IKEA,

00:22:18   and Hum.

00:22:20   I don't know, I haven't listened yet.

00:22:21   I literally just got this right before the show.

00:22:23   - You have to listen.

00:22:24   You can listen to the tracks on the website,

00:22:26   go listen to some.

00:22:27   - Yeah, I've heard it's quite good.

00:22:28   So anyway, you can listen to it for free on the site

00:22:31   dreamingwithjeff.com.

00:22:33   If you wanna download it, they have a pay-what-you-like

00:22:35   streaming system in place.

00:22:36   This is all based on Squarespace.

00:22:38   You can do all this Squarespace, the publishing of the site,

00:22:41   listening, the buying, this is all Squarespace. You can bid on one of these box sets, it's

00:22:47   like a limited edition box set, or you can just pay what you want to download the thing.

00:22:52   Jeff Bridges is the face of No Kid Hungry, this is a charity group that the main mission

00:22:57   of it is that no child goes to bed hungry in America. All proceeds from this album will

00:23:01   go to No Kid Hungry, this wonderful charity. So really this is not a joke, this is not

00:23:06   a PR stunt, this is really Jeff Bridges work with Squarespace to make this happen. Dreamingwithjeff.com,

00:23:11   it out and you can watch the Super Bowl on 2/1, I assume that's this Sunday?

00:23:18   Do I have to tell anybody besides myself what date the Super Bowl is?

00:23:21   Yeah, tell me.

00:23:22   I didn't know which Sunday it was.

00:23:24   You guys!

00:23:25   Oh, God, you're so bad.

00:23:27   Anyway, so they've worked with Squarespace to, I guess he's going to be involved in their

00:23:30   Super Bowl commercial.

00:23:31   Like, they're doing a Super Bowl commercial again this year.

00:23:33   I think they were the first one last year.

00:23:35   So Jeff Bridges is going to be in the Squarespace Super Bowl commercial, all worked in with

00:23:40   with this DreamingWithJeff.com project.

00:23:42   So check it out, watch the Super Bowl.

00:23:44   I'm really gonna add to tell people to watch the Super Bowl

00:23:49   to see the full commercial for Squarespace

00:23:51   with Jeff Bridges.

00:23:52   Anyway, check out Squarespace.

00:23:54   It's the best way to build a website.

00:23:56   We talked about it so much in the past.

00:23:57   We'll talk about it more in the future.

00:23:59   They have all these new features for Squarespace 7,

00:24:01   this whole new design, tons of great new features.

00:24:04   It is still, as usual, beautiful design,

00:24:06   simple and powerful, 24/7 support.

00:24:08   All this for just eight bucks a month

00:24:10   and you get a free domain if you buy a year upfront.

00:24:14   And start a free trial.

00:24:15   This is a real free trial with no credit card required.

00:24:17   Start building your website today.

00:24:19   When you decide to sign up for Squarespace,

00:24:21   make sure to use the offer code ATP

00:24:23   to get 10% off your first purchase

00:24:24   and show your support for our show.

00:24:26   Thank you very much to Squarespace.

00:24:27   Start here, go anywhere.

00:24:29   - Did you look at the songs, Casey?

00:24:31   - No.

00:24:32   - You should.

00:24:33   I looked at my phone on the mobile site

00:24:34   and I have this cool little tape player thing

00:24:36   and little music players embedded in it

00:24:37   and they are absolutely crazy.

00:24:39   - Good, crazy?

00:24:40   - It reminded me of something that John Roderick would make

00:24:43   because they both have a similar kind of voice,

00:24:45   they're both a little beardy and just--

00:24:48   (laughing)

00:24:49   - How does one vocally sound beardy?

00:24:52   - There is a song called "Hmm"

00:24:54   and it's like, just because he talks over them

00:24:57   and there's this music, listen to them and tell me

00:24:59   if you don't picture John Roderick doing it.

00:25:01   Anyway, it's all for charity, you should go do it,

00:25:03   spend some money.

00:25:04   - Wow.

00:25:06   So we had another piece of feedback from Alberto.

00:25:11   And John, would you like to talk about this?

00:25:13   - Sure, this is a question,

00:25:14   well, we get lots of questions in the same vein.

00:25:17   Most of the questions are like,

00:25:19   I'm just starting out in Field X

00:25:21   and you people have some experience in Field X,

00:25:24   how do I get started, so on and so forth.

00:25:25   This is a little bit of indirectly related to that.

00:25:29   This is from Alberto, he says, he listens to episode 101

00:25:33   about how Marco just quote, went and learned,

00:25:36   unquote, a new computer language.

00:25:38   And he was wondering how you go about learning

00:25:40   something so complex by yourself in a short time.

00:25:43   Do you just sit there with a textbook and start reading?

00:25:45   Do you open up a compiler and try it and see what's what?

00:25:48   Alberto says he wants to expand his very simple

00:25:50   programming skills and any tips you will give will help.

00:25:52   This whole vein of feedback where people want advice

00:25:57   on how to get better at something they think we know

00:26:00   how to do better than they currently know how,

00:26:03   it's always very difficult.

00:26:04   People always ask me for recommendations of things to do

00:26:07   or books to read, and I wish I had to go to answers for them,

00:26:10   but I don't.

00:26:10   But for this specific answer,

00:26:12   I'll just let Marco answer it.

00:26:13   I think there is an explanation of how Marco was able

00:26:16   to pick up Go in such a short period of time.

00:26:19   - Well, can I interject before that happens?

00:26:21   We get this, notice I didn't wait for your answer.

00:26:23   We get this question constantly.

00:26:27   We get this question, what should I learn?

00:26:29   I wanna learn to program, where should I start?

00:26:31   or alternatively, I'm about to start iOS development,

00:26:34   should I learn Swift or Objective-C?

00:26:36   And we get this question so darn often

00:26:38   that I actually wrote a very short blog post about it.

00:26:41   And it's only a couple of paragraphs,

00:26:43   we'll put it in the show notes.

00:26:44   But suffice it to say,

00:26:46   I think the key phrase in that blog post,

00:26:48   which conveniently is in bold,

00:26:50   is find a problem to solve

00:26:52   and then solve it using the most appropriate tools.

00:26:54   And that's really all it comes down to

00:26:57   as far as I'm concerned.

00:26:58   And I think that Marco is about to tell you

00:27:00   that that's kind of the path that he followed

00:27:02   when learning Go.

00:27:03   - Yeah, that's pretty much it.

00:27:05   So, I mean, first of all, if you only know one language,

00:27:09   and if you're new to programming,

00:27:10   or if you don't know any programming languages yet,

00:27:13   this sounds like a bigger deal than it really is

00:27:15   once you know a lot.

00:27:16   Like, when you've been programming for long enough,

00:27:19   you start realizing,

00:27:20   especially if you're exposed to a lot of languages,

00:27:22   you start realizing that they're a lot more similar

00:27:24   than you think.

00:27:25   There's a lot of overlap.

00:27:26   Usually the differences are really relatively minor

00:27:31   and come down to minor syntax details

00:27:33   and then the available libraries

00:27:35   that are built into the language

00:27:35   or that are available for it.

00:27:36   So the names of things you're calling might be different,

00:27:39   the symbols that you're using for certain things

00:27:41   might be different, but you're kinda doing

00:27:43   the same kinds of things,

00:27:44   or at least there's a lot of overlap.

00:27:46   And the concepts carry over.

00:27:47   And so learning a new language really is,

00:27:52   it's nothing like learning a new human language.

00:27:55   I mean, I know they have similar concepts too,

00:27:56   but there's a much higher learning curve

00:27:59   for like human spoken languages.

00:28:01   - There are more keywords.

00:28:02   - Yeah, the vocabulary is much bigger.

00:28:05   They're a lot more complex.

00:28:06   Like going between programming languages

00:28:08   is a lot simpler than it sounds,

00:28:09   if you're not a programmer or if you're new at it.

00:28:12   It sounds like it's a lot, but it's really not.

00:28:15   And yeah, it's basically what Casey said.

00:28:18   The way I learn, and I don't know if everyone does this,

00:28:20   but the way I learn is basically,

00:28:23   I have a problem that I need to solve in that language,

00:28:25   that both the language is well suited for

00:28:28   and that I'm very motivated to do.

00:28:31   So when the App Store came out, I learned Objective-C

00:28:33   and I learned the frameworks around Cocoa and UIKit

00:28:37   because I really wanted to make the Instapaper iOS app

00:28:40   and that was the only way to do it, so I did it.

00:28:43   And I just plowed through.

00:28:45   And what that looks like, and same thing with Go.

00:28:47   I figured out I had these problems

00:28:49   and before I tried Node,

00:28:51   I did it the exact same way basically,

00:28:52   just a little bit smaller learning curve

00:28:54   'cause I already knew JavaScript somewhat,

00:28:55   but I had this problem that my existing toolkit

00:28:59   was not very well suited to solve,

00:29:01   and I knew that many other languages

00:29:04   would have been way better at it

00:29:05   as we discussed in the show.

00:29:06   I had heard good things about these, so I picked them,

00:29:10   and I just started kinda plowing through.

00:29:13   So Go has a pretty good online tutorial at golang.org.

00:29:17   Put it up, we'll put it in the show notes.

00:29:19   There's a pretty good online tutorial,

00:29:21   And actually the problem that I was solving

00:29:22   of basically being a feed crawler,

00:29:26   one of their examples on their site is a web crawler.

00:29:29   - Nice.

00:29:31   - And so my design of it is actually based on that.

00:29:35   And it's not very long, it was pretty easy to base on.

00:29:38   But a lot of the concepts of like,

00:29:40   oh how do I make it print status every second

00:29:42   to the log file and stuff like that.

00:29:45   How do I track what it's doing.

00:29:47   Managing the concurrency aspects, all that stuff,

00:29:50   That all came from that example first.

00:29:52   And then I built on that and I kind of made it my own.

00:29:55   But honestly, in general, the way to start a new language,

00:29:59   like you said before, is really just have a project

00:30:02   that you're motivated to do in it.

00:30:03   If you just say, I wanna make an iPhone app,

00:30:06   just in general, and you don't really know what,

00:30:08   you don't have a specific app in mind,

00:30:10   you just wanna make an app.

00:30:11   'Cause you heard making apps makes money

00:30:12   or it sounds interesting.

00:30:13   That's gonna be harder to get into.

00:30:16   It's much easier if you have a specific idea

00:30:19   of something that you really want to see,

00:30:20   something that you really want to make.

00:30:22   That's way easier to start with,

00:30:24   because then you're motivated to basically just start,

00:30:27   just plow through it.

00:30:29   And that's exactly how I do it.

00:30:31   I didn't read a book, I just plowed through.

00:30:33   You know, when I used to learn languages,

00:30:34   I used to read books,

00:30:35   like when I was in high school and college.

00:30:37   Now, there's so many great resources on the internet.

00:30:40   There's tutorials online,

00:30:42   there's places like our second sponsor, lynda.com,

00:30:46   which I'll get to in a second,

00:30:47   because this ties right into that.

00:30:50   There's all sorts of online documentation.

00:30:52   There's walkthroughs.

00:30:55   There's just so much available online that,

00:30:58   and Stack Overflow has been amazingly helpful

00:31:01   in this regard.

00:31:02   There's just so much available online now

00:31:04   that you can just kinda start,

00:31:06   just like start plowing through it,

00:31:07   like start with a tutorial and just start building it

00:31:10   into what you want it to be.

00:31:12   And you'll pick up a lot along that path.

00:31:16   You'll learn as you go.

00:31:18   You can do it the other way.

00:31:19   can read a book. I've never found that very helpful, but a lot of people do. It just,

00:31:22   you know, depends on how you learn. But in general, the way to learn is to just start plowing through.

00:31:27   Yeah, the only thing I'll add is that the specific question of how we go about learning something so

00:31:34   complex in a short amount of time. Both of us have been programming for a living for a long time now,

00:31:40   and the way we do it in such a short time is, as Marco said, we recognize the similarities between

00:31:47   programming languages and so we have a leg up on someone who's like "programming, what's that?"

00:31:51   You know, we don't have to relearn the concepts of, you know, what's a variable, what's a loop,

00:31:57   what's a conditional, like stuff like that. We don't have to relearn anything about functions or,

00:32:03   you know, now that we all know something like blocks or whatever the closures and stuff like

00:32:08   we don't have to relearn those concepts. It's just how are those concepts

00:32:11   implemented in this particular language. If you're starting from zero,

00:32:15   You will have to you will somehow have to learn these basic concepts, right?

00:32:19   But your second language you'll be able to learn quicker than your first and your third language you'll be able to learn even quicker

00:32:24   So that's how basically it's not like a technique of how do we go about learning something complex?

00:32:29   It's because we already know a bunch of similar things

00:32:31   So it's very fast for us to pick up something or what Marco in case you're both talking about is like, all right

00:32:36   Well assume you can pick up the language

00:32:39   It's still not gonna stick in our brains unless we use it to actually solve a problem because it'll just be like yeah

00:32:44   I mean, I don't know about you, but I can read an entire book on a language, which I've

00:32:48   done in the past, but if I don't use it to write a program of any significance, that

00:32:52   just leaves my brain.

00:32:53   And it's like, yeah, I can recognize it when I see it, and if you remind me, I'll be like,

00:32:57   oh yeah, but it doesn't stick unless you use it.

00:32:59   So you know, it's like, what's the trick?

00:33:02   The trick is, be a programmer for 10 to 20 years first, then you'll be able to pick up

00:33:06   new languages fairly quickly, unless it's a really weird language and you don't know

00:33:08   the concepts.

00:33:09   Like if we tried to learn something, like, I probably don't know a lot of the concepts

00:33:12   that are involved in Haskell.

00:33:13   So my first job there would be like, I can't just pick that up because I have no analog.

00:33:17   I need to first learn concepts that are not in any other language that I know that are

00:33:21   in Haskell or Erlang or something.

00:33:23   And then once they get that concept, then you know, it becomes easier.

00:33:26   Yeah, it's entirely true.

00:33:27   And kind of building on what you were saying, I'll read say NS Hipster.

00:33:32   And as of late, NS Hipster has been entirely in Swift and I have barely written any Swift

00:33:38   in my life, but I can still read it reasonably well because I can pick out bits and pieces

00:33:45   that remind me of other languages and kind of infer what this stuff is doing.

00:33:51   So I can look at Swift and say, "Oh, that looks a lot like JavaScript.

00:33:55   That's probably what they're doing there."

00:33:56   Or, "Oh, that looks a lot like C#.

00:33:58   I know exactly what's going on here."

00:34:01   And of course, that looks like Objective-C.

00:34:03   Well, I know what that means.

00:34:05   And so you can take this really nice and broad foundation, especially as you get more and

00:34:13   more experience, and apply that to all these other things, and you can do it quicker and

00:34:17   quicker with time.

00:34:20   What else is cool these days, Marco?

00:34:21   Well, as I mentioned a minute ago, if you're looking to learn something new, you should

00:34:25   check out our second sponsor, lynda.com.

00:34:30   They're an easy and affordable way to help you learn with high quality, easy to follow

00:34:33   video tutorials. You can instantly stream thousands of courses created by experts on

00:34:38   software, web development, graphic design, and more, including all these languages we've

00:34:42   just been talking about. Go to lynda.com/atp to see for yourself. lynda.com has fresh new

00:34:49   courses added daily. They work directly with the industry experts and software companies

00:34:54   to provide timely training, often the same day new versions hit the market, so you're

00:34:57   always up to speed. They have courses for all experience levels, whether you're a beginner

00:35:01   or advanced.

00:35:02   Every lynda.com course is produced at the highest quality.

00:35:05   This is not like the inconsistent homemade stuff you'll find like on YouTube and everything.

00:35:10   This is really high quality professional stuff.

00:35:12   I've watched them myself.

00:35:13   I cannot say enough good things about their quality.

00:35:15   Courses are broken into bite-sized pieces so you can learn at your own pace.

00:35:18   You can learn from start to finish or you can just jump in and find a quick answer if

00:35:21   you're looking up an answer to something.

00:35:24   They have searchable transcripts, they have playlists, they have certificates of course

00:35:28   completion you can publish to a LinkedIn profile.

00:35:30   You can even learn while you're on the go with the lynda.com apps for iPhone, iPad,

00:35:35   and Android.

00:35:36   Now all this is available, not per video, not per course, this is all available for

00:35:42   just one flat monthly price of $25 for unlimited access.

00:35:47   They have over 100,000 tutorials that you'll get with that.

00:35:49   So $25 a month to have access to all of their tutorials, which is again right now over 100,000

00:35:55   of them.

00:35:56   This is great for people like me.

00:35:58   I like to kind of learn a little about a lot.

00:36:00   I say sometimes that that's like, you know,

00:36:02   I want like a surface level understanding

00:36:05   of a lot of different things.

00:36:08   And lynda.com was a big help when I was learning

00:36:10   how to edit this podcast.

00:36:12   I learned a lot of stuff about audio editing,

00:36:14   working with logic, which is not an easy program to learn,

00:36:17   stuff like that.

00:36:18   So anyway, they also have an annual premium plan.

00:36:22   Premium members can download courses to your iPhone, iPad,

00:36:24   or Android and watch them offline.

00:36:26   You can also download sample project files

00:36:28   and practice along with the instructor

00:36:29   if you'd like with that membership.

00:36:31   Now they have all sorts of courses you might love.

00:36:33   As I said, app development, web development,

00:36:35   and many languages.

00:36:37   They also have productivity apps,

00:36:39   creative pro apps like the Adobe Creative Suite,

00:36:41   Logic, Final Cut, even professional skills

00:36:45   like management and negotiation.

00:36:46   Really, most of us use software for our jobs today.

00:36:50   For any software you rely on,

00:36:51   Lynda.com can help you with the ins and outs,

00:36:53   teach you tips and tricks,

00:36:54   and keep you current with updates and new features.

00:36:57   that's so useful that 30% of colleges and universities,

00:37:00   including most of the Ivy League schools,

00:37:02   offer lynda.com subscriptions to their students

00:37:04   and faculty members.

00:37:05   That's awesome.

00:37:06   Anyway, go to lynda.com, L-Y-N-D-A.com/ATP,

00:37:11   and you can get a 10-day free trial.

00:37:14   You can watch as much as you want in that 10 days.

00:37:17   L-Y-N-D-A.com/ATP to get a 10-day free trial

00:37:21   with access to all courses.

00:37:23   Thanks a lot to lynda.com for sponsoring our show once again.

00:37:26   So Apple made a little bit of money last quarter.

00:37:29   - I'm shocked.

00:37:31   - I know, I thought they were on the ropes.

00:37:33   I thought that Apple was doomed, but seemingly not.

00:37:37   Yeah, so Apple made a metric butt ton of money

00:37:41   is I believe the official measurement that I've been quoted.

00:37:44   I don't even know really what to say about this.

00:37:47   It's a tremendous amount of money

00:37:50   and Apple is doing really, really well.

00:37:55   And I don't know what to make of this.

00:37:57   Even as someone who is very new to the Apple ecosystem,

00:38:00   as we've talked about very recently, in fact,

00:38:02   it's odd for me to see Apple doing this well.

00:38:08   Like what's not going well financially for them these days?

00:38:13   Anything?

00:38:14   - I mean, even a tiny part of Apple's business,

00:38:19   like the iPod business, for instance,

00:38:20   even that is doing amazingly

00:38:23   relative to many other companies.

00:38:25   - Yep.

00:38:26   - You know, it's like, and people mentioned

00:38:28   apparently like the amount of money that they lost

00:38:30   due to currency fluctuations this quarter

00:38:34   was like Google's entire quarterly profit.

00:38:37   (laughing)

00:38:37   Something like that.

00:38:39   Like, they just make an insane amount of money.

00:38:41   I mean, honestly, I don't think this is that interesting

00:38:43   from the money perspective.

00:38:44   I think what's more interesting,

00:38:46   and even then only mildly, but what's more interesting

00:38:50   is kind of looking at the trends of like how well

00:38:53   things like the iPhones and the iPads are selling,

00:38:56   what does the growth curve look like?

00:38:57   Are they accelerating?

00:38:58   And I think what we're seeing right now,

00:39:01   we're seeing that the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus

00:39:04   were just massive hits.

00:39:06   And I think we all kinda knew that already,

00:39:08   but to see it officially recorded in the totals here

00:39:13   is really something to see.

00:39:16   They have made very strong inroads into other markets,

00:39:22   Asia, places like that, and also into the Android market

00:39:26   with the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus.

00:39:28   - Yeah, I think these financial stories

00:39:30   are mostly interesting in the ways

00:39:35   they sort of highlight Apple's impotence.

00:39:39   Not that that's the main story.

00:39:41   Not that that's the main story.

00:39:42   Like the main story we hear, the main story is like,

00:39:44   oh, they're making a lot of money,

00:39:45   then everyone, you know, Grubdust has claimed Chowder,

00:39:48   and everyone makes fun of the stock analysts

00:39:50   who thought they weren't gonna sell things,

00:39:51   and then we look at the trends, how are the Macs doing,

00:39:53   how are the iPads doing,

00:39:54   I think I've seen all those stories.

00:39:56   And there have been some good ones about that,

00:39:59   but what I always think about when,

00:40:02   well, two things, when Apple or any company

00:40:04   has these big earnings.

00:40:07   One is the old Ed Catmull quote that success hides problems.

00:40:10   And so when you see massive success, you think,

00:40:12   "Boy, that much success can hide a hell of a problem."

00:40:17   You can have just dinosaur-sized problems.

00:40:21   $18 billion, like what kind of problem

00:40:23   could $18 billion not hide, right?

00:40:25   And so that's what I think about.

00:40:27   And the second thing is the frustration of,

00:40:30   it's kind of like in those, you know,

00:40:31   not SimCity or they don't play that enough,

00:40:33   but any of those sort of like simulation games

00:40:35   with an economy where eventually you break the game

00:40:38   and you essentially have unlimited funds, right?

00:40:42   And yet there are things, even with unlimited funds,

00:40:44   there are things you can't do

00:40:45   because usually it was the game world doesn't allow it.

00:40:47   This is where the analogy breaks down.

00:40:48   but when I think about Apple with all this money,

00:40:51   is all this money is not enough for them

00:40:55   to buy their way to whatever you want to pick,

00:41:00   to do network services as well as Google or Amazon

00:41:04   or even Facebook, to be able to hire

00:41:06   and retain the world's best talent.

00:41:08   There are some problems that throwing money out of them

00:41:12   just will not solve, right?

00:41:14   And that must be frustrating because it's like,

00:41:16   How do you get these things that we need to get?

00:41:21   What do we need?

00:41:22   And most companies is like,

00:41:23   "Oh, if we only had more money."

00:41:24   But at Apple it's like,

00:41:25   "No, we have all the money in the freaking world.

00:41:27   Why can we not turn this money into,"

00:41:29   and certain thing that Apple feels that it's lacking.

00:41:31   And from the outside,

00:41:32   there are many things that we feel Apple is lacking.

00:41:34   And on the inside,

00:41:35   I bet the main thing I think they're lacking is,

00:41:37   how can we get people,

00:41:39   how can we get really good employees?

00:41:40   Because we all know what it's like at Apple

00:41:42   or any large organization.

00:41:45   Everyone can't be in charge at Apple.

00:41:48   Some people have more of a say in what the company does

00:41:50   than other, it's a hierarchy.

00:41:52   Every corporation has a hierarchy.

00:41:54   And so how can you get all of the world's best people?

00:41:58   You can only get all the world's best people

00:41:59   who wanna work for a company.

00:42:01   And only a certain number of those can ever rise

00:42:03   to a position in Apple where they're in charge or anything.

00:42:04   And really smart people wanna be in charge of something

00:42:06   because they're really smart people.

00:42:07   So that's why people come to Apple, get experience,

00:42:10   and if they're really awesome,

00:42:11   they leave and start their own companies

00:42:12   or do their own things, and maybe they come back.

00:42:15   It's frustrating to see talent leave you

00:42:18   and go to other companies or go to startups.

00:42:20   So that's kind of the nature of the business.

00:42:21   And so that's why it makes me think about

00:42:23   all this giant mountain of money.

00:42:25   If I was at Apple, I'd be like,

00:42:26   how do we transform this money into improvements

00:42:30   in our products and services?

00:42:31   And all we do on the show is talk about all the areas

00:42:34   where Apple is weak.

00:42:36   And I think of every one of those areas

00:42:37   and almost all those areas, money may be necessary,

00:42:41   but it is clearly not sufficient

00:42:43   Because if all it took was money,

00:42:46   they would be great at everything.

00:42:48   Because they have all the, and this is not like,

00:42:49   they had blowout quarters before.

00:42:51   They just have massive amount of money in the bank.

00:42:53   They have a massive amount of money.

00:42:55   Like, they could, you know, it's like,

00:42:56   why not just pay all your employees $5 million a year?

00:42:59   Apple could pay, like, done.

00:43:01   And then all your employees leave

00:43:02   'cause they retire on their $5 million in the first year.

00:43:04   And you're like, well, we just destroyed

00:43:05   the company with money.

00:43:06   That was a really bad idea, guys.

00:43:08   So it's actually, it's kind of like Brewster's Millions,

00:43:10   a reference that neither one of you get

00:43:12   because you weren't born, but the

00:43:13   - Nope. - Good movie.

00:43:14   - Nope.

00:43:14   - Everyone go watch Brewster's Millions

00:43:17   to understand the problem that Apple has.

00:43:20   Yes, Apple is Richard Pryor in this analogy.

00:43:23   - Oh, I love Richard Pryor.

00:43:24   Oh, see, now I actually wanna watch this.

00:43:26   - No, I think you're right.

00:43:27   I mean, as you said, there's just a lot of problems

00:43:30   that money either can't solve or makes worse

00:43:34   or isn't sufficient enough to solve.

00:43:36   And most, I mean, I would say looking at

00:43:40   what we identify as Apple's problems from the outside,

00:43:42   and assuming that they're at least partially true,

00:43:45   it seems like Apple's two biggest problems

00:43:50   are getting and retaining good talent, number one,

00:43:54   and number two, just like organizational inertia

00:43:57   of like the way things are set up,

00:43:58   the way like departments are structured,

00:44:01   the way the incentives are.

00:44:03   Like honestly, I think anyone interested

00:44:06   in the quality problems or perception of them,

00:44:11   whether you think they're real or not,

00:44:13   I think you should listen to this week's episode of Debug,

00:44:16   which is Neetan Ganatra and Don Melton, part three,

00:44:21   and they talk about this.

00:44:22   They talk about these accusations of quality issues.

00:44:25   And it was interesting to hear,

00:44:30   partially I think they were actually,

00:44:33   especially Neetan Ganatra,

00:44:34   I think they were actually quite defensive.

00:44:37   But it was little,

00:44:40   I had mixed emotions listening to it,

00:44:42   but it gives a lot of insight

00:44:44   into the way things are done at Apple.

00:44:48   And they don't work there anymore,

00:44:51   but they were there fairly recently,

00:44:53   and they were there for some fairly recent releases.

00:44:55   And the way things are done,

00:44:58   it sounds a lot like all the high priority bugs

00:45:02   tend to get fixed, but there's not a lot of time left

00:45:05   for the less high priority bugs.

00:45:08   - Well, this is how every company works.

00:45:09   like I haven't listened yet, it's in my queue,

00:45:10   but like they're probably defensive

00:45:12   because like what they're not saying,

00:45:14   whether they realize it or not is,

00:45:16   you don't know what it's like man,

00:45:18   to get anything done inside the company,

00:45:19   you have to do X, Y, and Z.

00:45:20   And when you're telling me that I should be doing this,

00:45:22   it's like, well, but you can't,

00:45:23   because like Apple, the structure of Apple

00:45:25   becomes the fixed thing.

00:45:27   And it's like to get anything done within the structure,

00:45:29   you have to do this.

00:45:30   Maybe that means within the structure,

00:45:32   the only thing you can do

00:45:33   is get the high priority bugs first,

00:45:34   because then you can get someone higher up

00:45:36   to pay attention to you

00:45:37   and you can make a priority for your team,

00:45:38   you can get it done.

00:45:39   anything lower priority, you can't work within the system.

00:45:41   So really what they're angry about

00:45:43   when they're being defensive is they're angry at the system

00:45:46   into which they are placed.

00:45:47   And then they're put into the system and told,

00:45:49   "Now get things done."

00:45:50   And they would like to do what they think

00:45:53   is the right thing, but within the system,

00:45:55   you have to work the system, right?

00:45:56   And who gets to change the system?

00:45:58   This gets back to, you know, who is in charge?

00:46:01   Are the people in charge the best people to be in charge?

00:46:03   You can't have a company where people move up the ranks

00:46:05   over many years and then someone realizes,

00:46:08   Like that guy has no idea what he's doing.

00:46:10   Get him out of there and bring someone.

00:46:11   Like people don't like it when you hire new people

00:46:12   and above them, they don't like when they bring in

00:46:14   new people that say all the current people there

00:46:15   don't know what they're doing.

00:46:17   Change like that takes time because egos get bruised

00:46:19   and people have to be kicked out of the company

00:46:21   and like, and if there's too much churn,

00:46:23   it seems like a volatile place and it's not fun to like.

00:46:26   All the problems of any human doing anything in a group

00:46:28   are magnified in a corporate setting.

00:46:30   And that is the main sickness of all corporations.

00:46:32   And I would say Apple has done better

00:46:34   than any other company to fight against

00:46:37   the sort of corporate malaise

00:46:39   to actually produce good products.

00:46:42   And they're rewarded with buckets of money.

00:46:44   But even those buckets of money

00:46:47   can't cure all the sicknesses within the organization.

00:46:50   And no amount of money can make it so that

00:46:53   people who wanna be chief

00:46:54   suddenly wanna be your Indians.

00:46:55   So you're never gonna have all the best people.

00:46:57   They're always gonna leave and do their own thing.

00:46:59   They're always going to be restless and do something else.

00:47:01   And, you know, I still say like the most practical thing

00:47:04   that Apple will do with this money

00:47:05   is address its shortcomings that can,

00:47:08   the money has the most effect on, for example,

00:47:10   prioritizing network services and infrastructure.

00:47:14   You can throw money at that.

00:47:16   If people learn that Apple was going to spend

00:47:19   $300 billion trying to catch up to Google

00:47:22   and Amazon and Facebook and network infrastructure

00:47:24   and data center expertise,

00:47:25   a lot of people who have network infrastructure

00:47:27   and data center expertise would go work for Apple.

00:47:29   But right now, those people don't wanna work for Apple

00:47:30   because the idea is that Apple is a place

00:47:33   where those things are not prioritized

00:47:35   and all the glory people are working on UIKit or whatever.

00:47:38   - Right, I mean that's like,

00:47:40   it seems like the two biggest problems in that area

00:47:44   of what frustrates the people who are there

00:47:46   are the way the system is set up

00:47:50   and the stress of working within that

00:47:54   and the deadlines of what you have time to work on

00:47:56   and what you don't have time to work on.

00:47:57   From what I've heard from so many people

00:48:00   in and out of Apple, those are the two biggest problems.

00:48:03   It's like, you know, you might be,

00:48:05   like a lot of people there are very happy

00:48:07   doing what they're doing,

00:48:08   but there's a lot of people there

00:48:09   who can't get the time or the staff

00:48:12   to fix the problems they wanna fix.

00:48:14   And there's a lot of people there

00:48:16   who are fighting the good fight

00:48:18   and working on things that need to be worked on,

00:48:20   but they don't get the support from above

00:48:22   or the resources from above.

00:48:24   I guess it's kind of the same problem.

00:48:26   Where like it's just not a high enough priority

00:48:27   for the company or it's kind of stuck

00:48:29   in this weird division somewhere

00:48:31   where like it kind of maybe should be somewhere else

00:48:33   or there's some roadblock in the middle of the hierarchy

00:48:36   that's making it hard for them or something like that.

00:48:38   There's these organizational challenges and you're right,

00:48:41   every company is gonna have problems like this.

00:48:44   That doesn't make them non-problems.

00:48:46   And really, I think you gotta listen to this debug.

00:48:51   It really encapsulates this so well

00:48:54   and even when Nitin Ganatra was attempting to argue

00:48:59   against this point, he was proving this point unknowingly.

00:49:03   Because he was saying, like, his point of view

00:49:07   is that he thinks this is like, I think he said,

00:49:11   it's probably like six P1, which means,

00:49:13   highest priority, the P1, six P1 bugs,

00:49:16   and then we'll all forget about this.

00:49:19   And then they proceeded to talk about how the P2 bugs

00:49:22   hardly ever, everybody wants to work on the P2 bugs,

00:49:26   but they're hardly ever allowed to

00:49:27   because of the release cycle leaving so little time

00:49:29   and everything's just about like,

00:49:31   is it high priority?

00:49:32   Fix it.

00:49:33   If it's not a high priority,

00:49:33   we can't afford to work on it right now.

00:49:35   And so I'm not feeling,

00:49:38   when I say I'm feeling a lack of quality here,

00:49:41   I'm not feeling six P1 bugs.

00:49:43   I'm feeling 6,000 P2 bugs that have accumulated

00:49:46   over the last five years and aren't being fixed.

00:49:49   - Yeah, I agree.

00:49:49   I was gonna say that the success side problems thing,

00:49:54   The reason you can't get prioritization from your boss

00:49:57   to fix the P2s or whatever,

00:49:59   and the reason you think like they're, you know,

00:50:01   that's not a priority, these are the priority,

00:50:03   is because if you were to ever be able to make your case,

00:50:07   what you would say is,

00:50:12   we need to do this because of,

00:50:13   and you lay out all these reasons,

00:50:14   and what they would say is,

00:50:15   well, I don't think we need to do this because X, Y, Z,

00:50:17   and you'd have this argument,

00:50:18   and eventually what you'd come down to

00:50:19   as you move your way up the ladder is like,

00:50:21   well, obviously my priorities as the boss

00:50:26   are the correct ones

00:50:27   because look how successful as Apple has been.

00:50:28   And the higher you go up in the company,

00:50:30   the more the person can say,

00:50:31   well, I understand the people below me

00:50:33   might believe X, Y, and Z should be done,

00:50:36   but I believe it should be Q.

00:50:37   And history has shown that I've been pretty right

00:50:40   because Apple's been doing pretty well.

00:50:41   And like, it's the sort of,

00:50:43   that's the ultimate success hides problem thing

00:50:45   is that when you get into an argument

00:50:46   about what people should be doing,

00:50:47   that you need more staff to address this,

00:50:48   that and the other thing, everybody can't be in charge,

00:50:50   Again, for the millionth time,

00:50:51   there has to be people who are in charge,

00:50:52   and the people who are in charge always have at their back,

00:50:56   Apple is the most successful company in the world.

00:50:57   We make the best products.

00:50:58   We have 100% customer set.

00:51:00   Everybody loves us.

00:51:00   We make a bazillion dollars.

00:51:01   Everybody's buying iPhones.

00:51:03   They always have that sitting right behind them.

00:51:05   And so, no matter what argument you make based on reason,

00:51:07   in the end, and in the end,

00:51:09   the leaders might kind of be right.

00:51:10   It's like, well, what do you want?

00:51:11   We're the most successful company in the world.

00:51:12   Do you think the priorities I'm setting

00:51:13   as your boss or your boss's boss

00:51:16   or your boss's boss's boss or as Tim Cook,

00:51:18   are those priorities the wrong priorities?

00:51:19   In what way are they wrong?

00:51:21   Look how successful we are.

00:51:22   What criteria should we be judging ourselves on?

00:51:25   Pick a criteria, pick a metric, we are the best.

00:51:27   And you're saying, oh, it's not good enough

00:51:28   because you can't get people to fix your P2 bugs, right?

00:51:31   That's success side problems.

00:51:33   That's what you run up against.

00:51:35   And if you're one of the lower down people

00:51:37   and you can't convince the uppers,

00:51:38   it's like either you agree that they kind of have a point

00:51:40   and you become a company man,

00:51:41   and you argue that Apple doesn't have

00:51:42   reliability problems on podcasts,

00:51:44   or you leave the company and say,

00:51:47   well, these people are never gonna listen to me.

00:51:48   And whether they're right or not,

00:51:49   this is not the environment I wanna be in,

00:51:51   and so you leave.

00:51:52   - Yeah, you know, speaking of podcasts

00:51:55   that we haven't listened to yet, or at least I haven't,

00:51:58   a friend of the show, Ben Thompson,

00:52:00   was on the talk show this week,

00:52:02   and one of the things that I noticed in the notes

00:52:05   was them talking about Apple employees

00:52:07   who have gone on sabbaticals and then come back.

00:52:09   And I know that both of you guys

00:52:11   were mentioning that a minute ago.

00:52:12   And then with regard to the P2 bugs

00:52:14   that Marco was talking about,

00:52:16   I know I brought this up a couple episodes ago,

00:52:18   The Andy Matuszak interview on Objective-CIO,

00:52:21   he talks about that indirectly,

00:52:23   but just talks about how the incredible pace

00:52:26   and the priority of just getting new hardware

00:52:28   and other super important things done prevents them

00:52:33   from working on kind of the not as showy issues.

00:52:39   - Or major changes over time.

00:52:41   - Right, right.

00:52:42   So both homework assignments if you're bored.

00:52:45   All right.

00:52:47   Anything else on earnings other than that I want the bank account numbers for the hundred and seventy or whatever it is billion dollars

00:52:54   I haven't heard the the call yet, but I've read in many places that

00:52:59   Not that they gave a breakdown of six versus six plus

00:53:02   But they merely just said the six sold better than a six plus. Did you guys read that as well?

00:53:07   Yeah, that's that's what they said that that the six was the top seller in the line

00:53:11   But they didn't say him, you know what the ratio was and they don't usually break down the ratio like that

00:53:16   So I don't think we'd ever get good info on that.

00:53:19   I'm mostly interested in-- I'm always interested in not so much what they don't say, because

00:53:22   they don't say pretty much anything, but what they do say.

00:53:25   What value is there, or what would motivate them to tell us that the 6 sold more than

00:53:30   the 6 plus?

00:53:31   Right.

00:53:32   I don't know.

00:53:33   I mean, I can't even think of a cynical faking out your competitors.

00:53:41   Maybe they just-- I don't know.

00:53:42   I don't understand why they would say that.

00:53:43   And all I can think about is, why did you tell me that?

00:53:46   I assumed it.

00:53:47   I assumed it before the phones were even released.

00:53:49   The 6 was still better than the 6 Plus.

00:53:50   You're not telling me how much better,

00:53:51   so it doesn't give me any actual information

00:53:53   other than like 6 sold more than the 6 Plus,

00:53:55   but why are you telling me this?

00:53:57   I don't know.

00:53:58   - You know, it's funny.

00:53:59   I actually asked on Twitter, why wouldn't they say that?

00:54:02   Because I was having a dunce moment

00:54:06   and it was like, well, why not?

00:54:07   Who cares?

00:54:08   We're all friends, right?

00:54:10   And immediately I got a thousand replies

00:54:14   very gently telling me I'm an idiot.

00:54:16   But a lot of the responses were,

00:54:18   well, don't give your competitors anything.

00:54:20   And that makes sense.

00:54:22   And gosh, there was one or two others that were really good.

00:54:25   But it basically boiled down to what you're saying, Jon.

00:54:28   Why share that information?

00:54:31   What good does Apple,

00:54:32   what benefit does Apple gain from sharing it?

00:54:35   - Yeah, I mean, I guess Apple breaks down things

00:54:37   that it doesn't have to all the time,

00:54:38   but like product mix is one

00:54:40   that Apple has almost never broken down.

00:54:42   I've always assumed, there's lots of reasons,

00:54:43   like you said, of people who give you good responses.

00:54:45   I always assume the reason they don't break it down

00:54:46   is because they don't want to tell their competitors

00:54:50   sort of like, this is the mix of demand for these products.

00:54:53   So if you're going to make a line of phones,

00:54:55   this is roughly how many big ones this size

00:54:57   and how many small ones this size you wanna have, right?

00:54:59   - Exactly.

00:55:00   - Like they just, that's not the reason,

00:55:03   that's just the reason I always think of,

00:55:04   they're actually probably even better reasons.

00:55:06   But then that goes to make you think why?

00:55:08   I mean, someone in the chat room

00:55:09   said they were answering our question.

00:55:10   Yeah, but the press asks questions all the time

00:55:13   at these conferences and Apple just says,

00:55:14   "No, we're not gonna tell you that.

00:55:15   "Just do it all the time, right?"

00:55:17   Why decide to say that the six turns more?

00:55:20   It's not even anything, they're not even bragging about it.

00:55:22   It's not like a thing that you're bragging,

00:55:24   they're not countering a story, I don't think.

00:55:26   Is there a story out there that the, I don't know.

00:55:29   I can't figure it out.

00:55:30   But you know, maybe they just, you know,

00:55:33   they decided to throw the press a bone and tell them this

00:55:36   because it's another bullet point for a story.

00:55:38   But I don't think it puts Apple

00:55:39   in a particularly good or bad light.

00:55:40   Anyway, I haven't listened to the call yet.

00:55:42   We'll see what it was really like.

00:55:44   - All right.

00:55:46   So there's been a little bit of rumblings lately,

00:55:49   which I was not aware of until somebody else pointed it out.

00:55:53   And in this case, Wes Dart from Australia,

00:55:56   he or she said,

00:55:59   "It might be worth revisiting the new photo app for Mac.

00:56:02   I remember you guys were pretty excited about it.

00:56:05   I have a daily Google alert for all news about it.

00:56:08   It seems Apple have been removing references to it

00:56:10   their website. That doesn't instill a lot of confidence, does it? I mean, that's probably

00:56:19   not a good sign. And it also was funny to me, semi-related, that somebody pressed Tim Cook on

00:56:24   whether or not on the earnings call, whether or not the Apple Watch is really going to be released

00:56:30   early in 2015, because it's apparently coming out in April. And Tim said, from what I gather,

00:56:38   Well, the way we think of it is the first third of the year's early

00:56:41   The middle third is just the middle third and the last third is late. And so sure why not? It's still early, right?

00:56:48   We're all friends and I don't know it just struck me as funny. So are you guys?

00:56:53   Concerned about the fact that that photos apparently may not be the photo app may not be a thing anymore

00:56:58   Well, it seems like you know reading the tea leaves here and hearing a few rumblings here and there

00:57:05   I think the answer is not that the photos app is canceled or anything. I think it's just late

00:57:09   You know, it was I believe didn't did they say I thought I thought the initial release date was like last fall

00:57:16   But I think somebody else corrected me recently and said it was also early 2015. Yeah, it was always next year

00:57:21   So I think it was always supposed to be

00:57:23   2015 sometime. Okay, so, you know if if that means by the end of April 2015

00:57:28   And they're suddenly removing all these references to it. I mean I

00:57:33   It really does sound like based on a few rumblings here and there, from what I can tell, it's

00:57:39   just delayed.

00:57:40   It's not delayed.

00:57:41   It's not cancelled.

00:57:42   Yeah, and I always wonder with these stories, with the sort of implied, "Apple's removing

00:57:49   Robinson's photo map for the Mac," dot, dot, dot.

00:57:51   Those stories will never say, "This means Apple is canceling it," because that's

00:57:56   the implication, but they only want to imply it.

00:57:58   They don't want to say it, right?

00:58:00   or even speculate about it,

00:58:02   because my question would be,

00:58:03   all right, if you're saying this

00:58:04   because you think the photos app for the Mac is canceled,

00:58:08   is that really a thing that you think would happen,

00:58:09   that Apple would cancel both iPhoto and photos for the Mac,

00:58:12   and there would be no--

00:58:12   - And Aperture.

00:58:14   - Yeah, and Aperture,

00:58:14   and there would just be no photo management for the Mac.

00:58:16   I mean, I suppose that could be a thing.

00:58:18   Like, by all means, make that argument.

00:58:20   Tell me why Apple does not want to be in the business

00:58:22   of making first-party photo management applications

00:58:26   for your Mac anymore.

00:58:27   I would love to hear that argument,

00:58:28   but they will never make that argument.

00:58:30   They will just say that it's being fooled from the site

00:58:31   and let you just worry about something.

00:58:33   So in the absence of someone making a compelling argument

00:58:36   that Apple no longer wants to make photo apps for the Mac,

00:58:39   which I bet, you know,

00:58:40   and if I had to make that argument by the way,

00:58:42   I would say history has shown over the past several years

00:58:45   that Apple's not great at making phone management apps.

00:58:46   And if Apple didn't make one and give one away for free,

00:58:48   that would open up the market to third parties,

00:58:50   but then the third parties would have to work

00:58:52   with the photos in the cloud.

00:58:54   And if Apple doesn't have an API for that, blah, blah, blah.

00:58:56   Anyway, I'm not saying it's totally ridiculous.

00:58:57   It could happen, right?

00:58:59   but I don't see anyone making that argument.

00:59:01   So then it's just like, oh well,

00:59:02   late software is late, right?

00:59:04   You know, what else is new?

00:59:06   And you take it off the site just because

00:59:08   it's kind of embarrassing to have it up there

00:59:09   for a long time and not have it available.

00:59:13   And maybe, you know, it was on the website too soon.

00:59:16   You're showing screenshots of something that doesn't exist,

00:59:18   that people can't get.

00:59:21   Why are you enticing them?

00:59:22   Same thing with like still selling Aperture

00:59:24   when it's canceled, like that's not a good move either.

00:59:26   And so this just seems like a correction.

00:59:29   If this photos app doesn't come out until next year,

00:59:31   I don't care, just make it freaking work.

00:59:33   (laughing)

00:59:34   - That's the thing, I mean, you're right.

00:59:36   Photos on your Mac, that's such an important thing.

00:59:39   That's not something you can mess with.

00:59:42   If it was a beta, I wouldn't install it.

00:59:44   - I don't know if I'm gonna even install the final version.

00:59:48   When they say this is a really, seriously,

00:59:51   I barely trust iPhoto with my photos,

00:59:56   and this new system, whatever it is,

00:59:59   I'm gonna run it in parallel with iVoto

01:00:02   for a long time before I trust it.

01:00:03   - Yeah, I mean, whether I use it immediately

01:00:07   and whether I trust it with everything immediately

01:00:09   will entirely depend on whether I can read

01:00:12   its directory structure. (laughs)

01:00:14   If I can read it back out and I can back it up

01:00:17   with Time Machine and all that stuff

01:00:18   that we talked about months ago when they announced this,

01:00:21   I'll be comfortable using it.

01:00:22   If it doesn't have all those things,

01:00:23   it's gonna be a tough sell.

01:00:25   - Yeah.

01:00:26   Anyway, we didn't actually get a third sponsor this week,

01:00:28   so instead I decided to kind of throw this one

01:00:31   to two conferences that are run by our friends

01:00:33   and are really nice.

01:00:35   Both happening in March, both happening,

01:00:38   oh boy, I gotta consult the CGP Grey video.

01:00:40   Is Ireland the UK?

01:00:42   I think, hmm, I think the bottom half is, anyway.

01:00:46   (laughing)

01:00:48   - That's how they refer to it, I think, the bottom half.

01:00:50   I remember seeing that on that video.

01:00:51   - Yeah, me too.

01:00:52   - Yeah, so anyway--

01:00:53   - Oh my god, you're gonna get so much email.

01:00:56   - To review, the two largest islands in the British Isles

01:00:58   are Ireland and Great Britain.

01:00:59   Ireland has under two countries,

01:01:01   the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland,

01:01:02   while Great Britain mostly contains three,

01:01:04   England, Scotland, and Wales.

01:01:05   These last three, when combined with Northern Ireland,

01:01:07   formed the United Kingdom.

01:01:08   - Anyway, NSConference@nsconference.com

01:01:12   is an awesome conference that is in, oh boy,

01:01:15   Lychester?

01:01:16   - I think it's Lyster.

01:01:18   - Oh, it's like the Boston style,

01:01:19   you just kind of delete the middle of the word.

01:01:21   - We can get some help from this in the chat.

01:01:23   There was a good video I saw

01:01:24   of Americans pronouncing British place names.

01:01:28   I should find that for the notes.

01:01:29   - Lysester.

01:01:30   - Lester.

01:01:31   - Like a creepy dude, Lester?

01:01:33   - Yeah, sure.

01:01:34   - My bad.

01:01:34   Here it was, I was so smug,

01:01:36   I thought I really nailed it, but I was wrong.

01:01:39   - Anyway, all right, so that's March 16th, 18th,

01:01:41   NSConference.com in Lester in the UK.

01:01:45   Speakers to this include some of my friends,

01:01:47   Jessie Char, Daniel Jockett, Paul Kvassus, Laura Savino,

01:01:50   Jamie Newberry and a bunch more people

01:01:52   who I don't know quite as well,

01:01:53   but it's a very, very good list.

01:01:54   And I will be speaking there as well.

01:01:57   I tend to speak at about one conference per year

01:01:59   and I've been wanting to do this one for a while

01:02:01   and the scheduling has never worked out until this year

01:02:04   and I'm very happy to finally work this out.

01:02:06   So check out NSConference.com.

01:02:08   Also, Oll, I apologize to Casey

01:02:11   'cause he really wants to go and probably won't go

01:02:13   because baby stuff is hard and so, not that I blame you.

01:02:17   So anyway, it's ull.ie.

01:02:20   This is March 30th and 31st in Killarney, Ireland.

01:02:24   Speakers to ull include lots of people we know,

01:02:26   Jason Snell, Guy English, Dal Rampell, Georgia Dow,

01:02:30   Dave Whiskus, Serenity, Renee,

01:02:32   some guy named John or Jonathan Gruber,

01:02:34   I think he's an economist and more.

01:02:37   Go to ull.ie, 'cause that's pretty cool.

01:02:41   Anyway, yeah, so NS Conference and ull,

01:02:43   wanted to give them a nice shout out

01:02:44   since we didn't have a third sponsor this week.

01:02:46   Anyway, what else?

01:02:48   - So we're gonna get so much hate mail

01:02:49   and I'm not looking forward to it.

01:02:51   Anyway, I wanted to quickly talk about a tweet

01:02:55   that I had seen retweeted by my friend Andre Arco.

01:02:58   This tweet is by Gary Barnhart.

01:03:02   It says, "The history of programming is much more

01:03:04   "about programmers unacknowledged emotional attachment

01:03:07   "to familiarity than it is about invention."

01:03:10   And the first thing I thought of when I read this tweet

01:03:13   was Marco's insistence on sticking with PHP forever

01:03:17   up until a month ago.

01:03:19   The difference though in Marco's defense

01:03:21   is that you acknowledge your ridiculous insistence

01:03:24   on this ridiculous language

01:03:25   rather than just stick your head in the sand.

01:03:29   Although I guess maybe I should have thought of John first,

01:03:31   but since I don't feel like there's any--

01:03:34   - Why were you thinking of me first?

01:03:35   - Perl is fine.

01:03:37   Why do you need to learn any languages?

01:03:38   Perl is the best language, period.

01:03:39   - I know a whole bunch of languages.

01:03:40   (laughing)

01:03:42   I learn new ones all the time.

01:03:43   When Go and Dart comes out, when Go comes out,

01:03:45   when all these new languages come out,

01:03:47   I read all the documentation for the languages.

01:03:49   - Yes, but the only one you really need,

01:03:52   like Marco said, is Perl.

01:03:53   Just dollar signs for everyone, John.

01:03:55   - I think it's JavaScript is the only one

01:03:56   you ever really need.

01:03:57   (laughing)

01:03:58   No matter where you work,

01:03:59   you will find yourself writing JavaScript.

01:04:01   - That's true, actually.

01:04:02   - JavaScript, the worst language everywhere.

01:04:04   - Yep, that should be the slogan.

01:04:06   - Oh, you guys.

01:04:08   Anyway, I don't really have much to say

01:04:10   other than that I thought the tweet was cool

01:04:11   and it reminded me of you guys.

01:04:13   Yeah, that's true not just of programming languages, though it's true of anything.

01:04:17   Like again, with any sort of group organization with a hierarchy where people are in charge,

01:04:25   there's going to be an attachment of the people in charge to the things that they are familiar

01:04:29   with and since they're in charge they get to impose that on everybody else.

01:04:34   And any attempt to change is met with resistance from the people who are attached to the thing

01:04:39   that they're familiar with.

01:04:40   There are specific instances in programming it,

01:04:43   whether it's specific language or technology

01:04:46   or a particular code base

01:04:48   that people get attachments with.

01:04:50   In many cases, specifically with tech,

01:04:54   what's required is somebody who's not a tech person

01:04:59   to make a decision and impose it on the tech people.

01:05:03   That's how you get situation,

01:05:05   that's how you get essentially Mac OS X, right?

01:05:08   because Apple had all sorts of next generation

01:05:11   operating system initiatives within its walls,

01:05:15   and none of them were focused enough,

01:05:18   and they were put under very difficult constraints,

01:05:21   and they just couldn't get the job done.

01:05:23   So the only way they could break out of that

01:05:25   was they had to, someone who is not a programmer,

01:05:27   who has no attachment to the Mac toolbox

01:05:30   or to anything involving classic Mac OS,

01:05:33   to come in and say, "We're doing something different,"

01:05:36   because none of the people who were there in the trenches

01:05:41   were going to do that because all those people were experts

01:05:44   in the current Mac operating system.

01:05:46   And they may have had ambitions

01:05:47   to make a new operating system,

01:05:49   but they certainly had an attachment to the current one.

01:05:51   And it takes kind of an outsider.

01:05:52   And usually an outsider is not a tech person.

01:05:55   In this case, the outsider was the CEO of the company

01:05:58   who decided to purchase another company

01:06:00   that came along with Steve Jobs.

01:06:01   And he did a little inside out takeover type thing.

01:06:03   Those are the people who decided

01:06:05   Apple's next generation operating system was built on next step nobody

01:06:08   You know inside the company working on a new kernel or whatever decided

01:06:13   That next step was going to be the thing so like there's a way out of this. How do you

01:06:18   Deal with that emotional attachment you have a you get a decision made by somebody who has no emotional attachment to those things

01:06:25   And you know who I didn't know who there is it was Gil amelio then was the CEO

01:06:31   oh, I can't even remember the frigging CEO progression

01:06:33   in Apple, he did not have an emotional attachment

01:06:35   to classic Mac OS.

01:06:36   So the idea of, you know, using the Windows NT kernel

01:06:40   or buying Next or buying B or any of those things,

01:06:43   he is not burdened by any emotional attachment

01:06:45   to technologies or languages or anything having to do

01:06:48   with the current technology stack.

01:06:50   That was kind of a Christ-tunity though,

01:06:53   because if your company's going down the tubes,

01:06:55   the person can, the person in charge is empowered

01:06:59   to do that, and again, the success sides,

01:07:00   problem things, who at Apple is empowered to make them massively change their

01:07:04   priorities for network services? Anyone who has that sort of ability, like there's

01:07:11   no crisis causing it to happen at this point because for all the noise we make

01:07:15   talking about Apple and their problems, like then they turn in these financial

01:07:19   numbers and it's like tell me again why I have to totally change the way we do

01:07:21   things or otherwise, otherwise what? What happens if we don't? We have another

01:07:24   record quarter? Hmm. Well you know Blackberry was doing great in 2006. I know,

01:07:28   I know it hides problems right up to the point

01:07:31   that it doesn't, right?

01:07:32   And Apple especially, because if Apple misses

01:07:34   its fantastical earnings by just a little bit,

01:07:36   it's like, oh God, Apple is doomed.

01:07:37   They only made 16 billion.

01:07:39   And last year they made 18.

01:07:40   If they make 16 billion this, you know,

01:07:42   the same quarter next year, are they doomed?

01:07:44   No, they made $16 billion in a quarter.

01:07:46   They're fine, right?

01:07:47   So it's, but people will still go crazy over it.

01:07:49   So I guess that's kind of the upside.

01:07:51   I guess no one really talks about this,

01:07:52   but the upside of the crazy Apple blogosphere

01:07:55   and the pundits who are like,

01:07:57   Apple is doomed no matter what Apple does.

01:08:00   They're about to be destroyed

01:08:02   by whatever their competitor is.

01:08:04   That is actually that sort of manufactured chrysotunity.

01:08:08   That's like, it's not real.

01:08:09   It's a phantom.

01:08:10   Oh, I don't want to say it.

01:08:11   All right.

01:08:12   It's not a real problem.

01:08:15   But the perception that there is a problem

01:08:18   is the only thing they could ever give anybody

01:08:20   inside Apple any sort of clout to make a, you know,

01:08:24   to have a crisis that leads to an opportunity, right?

01:08:27   'cause otherwise if there were any other company,

01:08:28   we would be like, nothing ever changes.

01:08:31   We're doing great.

01:08:32   I don't understand why I would ever listen to you.

01:08:36   Everything is fine.

01:08:37   - Yeah, and just to put a little bit of nuance on this,

01:08:41   when I complain about Apple's quality problems,

01:08:44   or what I perceive as those quality problems,

01:08:47   I'm not saying Apple's doomed.

01:08:49   They're not.

01:08:50   Apple's gonna be fine for a long time.

01:08:52   Apple's gonna be, even if they have a bad patch,

01:08:56   it's gonna be a little bit like Microsoft is today,

01:08:58   which is like, Microsoft is, you know,

01:09:02   I think by most of our estimations,

01:09:05   they're going through like their worst period ever

01:09:07   right now, and they're still making tons of money,

01:09:09   and they're still fine, and you know,

01:09:11   they're not making as much money necessarily

01:09:13   as they could be, or maybe as they were in the past,

01:09:15   I don't know about that, but you know,

01:09:17   they're still like, even in this state of them

01:09:21   producing things that don't do well on the market,

01:09:23   and things that tend to suck a lot, or fail at least,

01:09:27   they're still, as a company, and financially and everything,

01:09:30   so fine, it's not even funny.

01:09:32   And so, you know, Apple, even if they had a colossal series

01:09:36   of terrible moves and terrible products

01:09:38   that flopped in the marketplace,

01:09:39   which doesn't look like it's gonna happen anytime soon,

01:09:42   but even if that happened,

01:09:45   they have so much money coming in.

01:09:47   They're still gonna be selling to so many people.

01:09:49   They're still gonna have such great success

01:09:52   relative to the market as a whole,

01:09:53   relative to other companies,

01:09:54   relative to zero,

01:09:56   that they're gonna be fine.

01:09:59   So I'm not saying they're doomed.

01:10:01   I'm not even saying that they're gonna start

01:10:04   making less money.

01:10:05   I don't know that, you know, who knows?

01:10:07   I do think though that,

01:10:09   following the theme of success hides problems,

01:10:12   you can be selling tons and doing very well

01:10:17   in profit, in market share,

01:10:20   in any kind of like, you know,

01:10:21   money metric you want to measure,

01:10:23   and still not be making stuff that's good enough.

01:10:26   That is a different metric.

01:10:28   And you can, similar to how I said,

01:10:31   you can lose the functional high ground

01:10:34   without losing it to somebody else,

01:10:35   you can just lose it yourself.

01:10:37   You can still be doing very, very well.

01:10:40   You can still be making tons of money.

01:10:41   You can still be the market leader

01:10:44   in whatever metric you choose to be.

01:10:46   Despite that, your stuff might not be

01:10:50   as good as it could be or should be.

01:10:52   That is a totally separate measure

01:10:54   that often does not correlate to your market success.

01:10:56   - Yeah, I wasn't talking about you.

01:10:58   I was talking mostly about, you know,

01:10:59   like this bad assumptions article by Ben Thompson,

01:11:02   who may or may not be in our chat room,

01:11:04   that like it's the analysts who are like,

01:11:06   "Apple has to come out with a network, you know,

01:11:09   or the competitors are gonna crush them.

01:11:10   They need, their lower priced phones

01:11:12   are gonna destroy them in China."

01:11:13   Like all these people who just don't understand Apple

01:11:16   or their business, they're the people who are manufacturing,

01:11:19   like the drama on the stock market with their price,

01:11:22   like why Apple's PE ratio is not what it should be

01:11:26   according to almost any rational thought.

01:11:29   It's just like, as this big article says,

01:11:31   we'll put it in the show notes,

01:11:32   like Apple is eternally,

01:11:34   and I think Asympico has said similar things,

01:11:37   Apple is eternally like on the edge of doom.

01:11:40   Like I think this was an Asympico thing.

01:11:45   He said like they're constantly falling to earth.

01:11:48   they just keep missing it, so basically they're in orbit.

01:11:51   Right?

01:11:51   Like it's just, and it's not,

01:11:53   and this is from the people who matter,

01:11:56   like in the financial markets and everything like that.

01:11:58   And everybody hates that,

01:12:00   and you have whole websites dedicated to just like,

01:12:02   I mean the Maclope, like all he does is just,

01:12:05   he or she, has just take down these people

01:12:09   who just have no idea what they're talking about

01:12:10   and constantly are talking about Apple

01:12:12   and seemingly having people listen to them.

01:12:14   But there is a benefit to that,

01:12:17   And the benefit is if that chatter gets loud enough,

01:12:21   it can be fuel for things to happen inside the company

01:12:23   that otherwise wouldn't.

01:12:24   I mean, and the other fuel is what Marco talked about,

01:12:26   that any good company, and especially Apple knows,

01:12:29   don't let yourself be Blackberry, right?

01:12:30   Don't let yourself be Microsoft.

01:12:31   Don't miss the mobile revolution.

01:12:33   Don't decide that a hardware keyboard

01:12:35   is the way forward, dammit.

01:12:36   Like you can always get blindsided.

01:12:40   And if I had, you know, an Apple to its credit,

01:12:42   and perhaps better than anyone else,

01:12:44   has been really good over the past decade or so

01:12:47   about trying not to let that happen to himself,

01:12:49   not resting on, like that's what the watch is all about.

01:12:51   Is the watch the right thing?

01:12:53   Is Apple TV the right thing?

01:12:54   Like these are things that Apple is trying.

01:12:56   They don't try a million things,

01:12:57   but they know we're gonna be the iPhone company forever.

01:13:01   That is not a viable strategy.

01:13:02   You will end up as a BlackBerry eventually.

01:13:04   It may take a while, but it'll eventually happen.

01:13:07   Like if I had to pick out something that is dangerous

01:13:09   to Apple right now, I would pick out like VR or something.

01:13:13   Maybe VR will be a fluke and it's not a big deal,

01:13:15   but Apple should be worried about it.

01:13:16   Apple should have contingency plans.

01:13:18   Apple should be working on VR.

01:13:20   Like, maybe it's not a big deal.

01:13:22   Maybe VR comes and goes and it's like, you know,

01:13:24   we didn't need to be worried about it, but.

01:13:26   - Doesn't VR come and go every seven or eight years?

01:13:28   - I know, like, you don't know, like,

01:13:30   but you never know what's gonna take.

01:13:32   Maybe it won't take now.

01:13:33   If you had said, like, tablet computers,

01:13:35   you better be worried about that Apple

01:13:36   when, like, pen for Windows came out,

01:13:38   or like the grid pad or whatever.

01:13:41   Oh my God, Apple, you better be worried about this.

01:13:43   They'd be like, what if they said,

01:13:45   no, we don't need to worry, that's stupid.

01:13:46   And then it went away and you're like,

01:13:47   see, we were totally right.

01:13:49   The whole thing with like tablets, that's pointless.

01:13:51   No one's gonna be, that stuff is useless.

01:13:53   And Paul was like, oh, you better do it in this PDA space.

01:13:56   We tried the Newton, it was crappy.

01:13:57   Nobody wants to have like a smart device

01:13:59   with a touchscreen, that's stupid, right?

01:14:01   If Apple kept having that attitude,

01:14:03   they would have never made the iPhone, right?

01:14:06   And so VR comes and goes, like you said,

01:14:07   and it's like, see, we were right, we didn't have,

01:14:09   no, you have to, you absolutely have to explore every avenue.

01:14:12   Maybe nothing comes to it,

01:14:13   but you have to be on the lookout for it.

01:14:14   I think Apple has that going for it,

01:14:17   that it's always gonna be on the lookout

01:14:18   for what the next thing that's gonna blindside it

01:14:21   and trying to stay ahead of it.

01:14:22   But the more difficult thing is

01:14:24   when you don't have anybody who's competing with you

01:14:27   in terms of product quality, profits, customer set,

01:14:30   anything like that,

01:14:31   what do you have to motivate you to be better

01:14:34   or to change the way you do business?

01:14:37   Because any argument you make about changing

01:14:39   the way you do a business can eventually end in,

01:14:42   what is it do you think,

01:14:44   How could we do better in some way?

01:14:46   Which metric that we can measure would we do better in?

01:14:48   Would we make more money?

01:14:49   Would we have higher customer satisfaction?

01:14:51   I guess maybe you could say we would have more market share,

01:14:53   but then they have a counter to that.

01:14:55   Like if you sold a lower priced phone,

01:14:58   you would increase your market share.

01:14:59   And then Apple said,

01:15:00   "Yes, but we don't care about market share.

01:15:01   We care about making the best products

01:15:02   and making a lot of money."

01:15:04   Possibly in that order.

01:15:05   - All right.

01:15:07   - Still waiting for that Sega VR headset.

01:15:09   - Okay.

01:15:11   Let me know how that works out for you.

01:15:14   Sony's making one, you got the Oculus,

01:15:16   you'll be able to get a VR headset someday.

01:15:18   - Thanks a lot to our sponsors this week,

01:15:20   Squarespace and lynda.com, and I guess Jeff Bridges.

01:15:24   And we will see you next week.

01:15:26   (upbeat music)

01:15:29   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:15:32   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:15:34   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:15:37   ♪ Oh it was accidental ♪

01:15:40   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:15:42   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, 'cause it was accidental.

01:15:47   It was accidental.

01:15:50   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

01:15:55   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:16:00   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:16:09   ♪ Anti-Marco, Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:16:14   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

01:16:18   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:16:19   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:16:22   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:16:23   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:16:24   ♪ Tech broadcast so long ♪

01:16:28   - What else is going on?

01:16:30   Anything fun?

01:16:31   - I mean, at this point, I think we're never gonna watch

01:16:33   the Microsoft thing, right?

01:16:34   'Cause we all forgot to do it for two weeks in a row, right?

01:16:36   - Oh, were we supposed to?

01:16:37   I'll probably watch a little bit.

01:16:39   I read articles with highlights, and I know more or less

01:16:42   what was announced.

01:16:43   I just want to see it, I guess.

01:16:45   I mean, sometimes when I watch those things,

01:16:48   it very quickly becomes not about what's been announced,

01:16:51   but about how it's being announced.

01:16:53   Yeah, yeah.

01:16:54   And sometimes that could be good,

01:16:55   and sometimes it can be bad.

01:16:56   If it's really long and boring, then it's bad.

01:16:58   But you can always be surprised.

01:17:00   I would remember that one of the best Microsoft things I watched

01:17:02   in a long time was that when Windows 8 Metro was announced,

01:17:07   and it was like the UI guy explaining the UI philosophy

01:17:11   behind the Metro interface.

01:17:13   That was really good.

01:17:14   - Yeah, I think, I mean, I've heard so many people

01:17:18   talking about this Microsoft thing

01:17:20   and various things about it.

01:17:22   I think the biggest red flag for me

01:17:27   is that all these features that are designed for like,

01:17:30   it sounds like they have basically one continuous UI

01:17:33   between phones, tablets, and PCs,

01:17:37   and convertible laptops and everything,

01:17:40   everything, rather than the Windows 8 environment

01:17:43   of these two separate environments and Windows RT,

01:17:46   which I think no one's even really mentioned yet recently

01:17:49   with this stuff.

01:17:50   - I think they canned that, didn't they?

01:17:52   - I think so, but I don't know if that's been confirmed.

01:17:55   I think it's just been implied.

01:17:56   But all that stuff, the problem is that whole system of,

01:18:01   oh, it'll be wonderful, you can have these apps

01:18:03   that run the same on all these different platforms,

01:18:05   you can have things being handed off, all that stuff.

01:18:08   You have to not consider what happens

01:18:11   if you have all the Microsoft devices,

01:18:14   because that's not gonna happen.

01:18:16   Like, that's unrealistic.

01:18:17   So you have to instead be like,

01:18:20   all right, so what happens if I only have one or two of these?

01:18:24   Maybe I only have the laptop and the Xbox,

01:18:28   or maybe it's just like the tablet and the laptop,

01:18:31   or something like that.

01:18:33   No one's gonna buy the Windows Phone anytime soon.

01:18:35   So what happens then in a mixed environment

01:18:38   where I'm not totally bought in?

01:18:41   Is this stuff still compelling, if it works at all?

01:18:44   Is it still compelling?

01:18:46   That I think is, I hope Microsoft is smart and practical

01:18:51   and humble enough to recognize that they need

01:18:54   to be worried about that and they need

01:18:56   to make sure that works well.

01:18:58   I don't know yet if they are.

01:19:00   In general, the new Microsoft is moving in that direction

01:19:04   of being more pragmatic and honest

01:19:07   about their position in mobile, but we'll see.

01:19:11   And then HoloLens, I mean, HoloLens from what everyone says

01:19:14   is a really awesome tech demo that everyone hopes

01:19:18   will come out sometime soon with some kind

01:19:20   of reasonable hardware that performs something well

01:19:24   and works with some kind of mystery software,

01:19:25   but that's a whole lot of ifs, you know?

01:19:29   That's a big line of pretty big problems to solve

01:19:33   before this thing is truly compelling.

01:19:36   And so I hope it succeeds.

01:19:38   I think it'd be cool.

01:19:39   I think it would be cool to kinda like shake things up

01:19:41   in the industry and to have Microsoft be at the front

01:19:44   of it again is kind of exciting

01:19:45   because they haven't been for a while.

01:19:48   So I think that would be interesting.

01:19:50   I think it'd be cool.

01:19:50   I hope it works.

01:19:51   But there's so many ifs and people are comparing it

01:19:57   to the original demos of Kinect,

01:20:00   back when it was still called Project Natal, I think.

01:20:02   Right, that was what that was?

01:20:04   - Sounds familiar.

01:20:05   - Yeah, yeah.

01:20:05   So people are saying the original demos of that

01:20:08   were like insanely awesome, ridiculous stuff,

01:20:11   and then the real thing came out

01:20:12   and it wasn't nearly that good in reality.

01:20:14   And so that could happen here,

01:20:15   but from what everyone has said

01:20:17   who has tried the HoloLens at the press event,

01:20:19   everyone said it was really good.

01:20:21   It was actually really good.

01:20:22   But of course it was all prototype hardware,

01:20:24   prototype software, pretty far from reality,

01:20:27   pretty far from release, so.

01:20:28   - Yeah, but like, I saw some people

01:20:31   who were normally skeptical say it was really good too,

01:20:32   but it's like really good, like a fun amusement ride,

01:20:36   but like what problem is this solving for me?

01:20:38   Like in gaming, it's easier,

01:20:41   because like gaming is an amusement ride.

01:20:42   That's the problem it's solving for you.

01:20:44   It's entertainment, right?

01:20:45   But for something that's not a gaming system,

01:20:47   the demo could be amazing because you didn't know

01:20:49   the things you're experiencing were possible,

01:20:51   and it was a super rock solid implementation of these ideas,

01:20:53   but then it's like, if you gave this to me

01:20:56   and put it in my house, what would I use it for?

01:20:58   Games are easy, I would use it to have fun, right?

01:21:00   If it doesn't make me sick,

01:21:01   and it's fun and novel and interesting,

01:21:03   and it makes new gameplay, it's just fun.

01:21:06   So that's all you need out of that.

01:21:08   But for, like I kept showing people

01:21:09   like 3D modeling and stuff, are you kidding me?

01:21:12   Take someone who uses Maya all day

01:21:14   and tell them you're gonna do everything with HoloLens.

01:21:15   It could get there eventually, maybe you have to do,

01:21:18   but like those applications are fiendishly complex.

01:21:21   They just, they're like the UI looks like

01:21:23   the dashboard of a 747, right?

01:21:25   You're gonna try to do that by waving your hands

01:21:29   around in space.

01:21:30   What is it making easier that,

01:21:33   like what is it making possible or easier

01:21:35   for people in those complex,

01:21:36   are you gonna use it for word processing?

01:21:38   Are you gonna use it for web browsing?

01:21:39   Like maybe, I don't know,

01:21:40   but like it's up to Microsoft to figure that out.

01:21:43   And putting a bunch of people in these little things

01:21:46   and having them be wowed by technology is,

01:21:49   it's a start, I guess, but you know,

01:21:52   the Apple thing is you have to come up with at least

01:21:54   one thing that you think this thing can do better

01:21:56   than something else and you have to be right about it.

01:21:58   And I don't know what that is yet.

01:22:00   - Yeah, there was a good discussion about this on Rocket,

01:22:03   our friend's new podcast by Brianna Wu

01:22:04   that she was talking about, you know, like three,

01:22:06   like she does 3D work all day and she knows,

01:22:09   and other people who do it, and she knows like

01:22:11   that's not really how people do 3D work and everything.

01:22:14   I think too, you know, we've seen as, you know,

01:22:19   tablets have gotten big and phones and everything, and we've seen all these weird peripherals

01:22:27   that the computing industry has tried over time. I think we've mostly figured out the

01:22:34   things that work really well for most tasks. And I'm not saying that we can never do

01:22:40   anything different or that we can never find better ways, but a lot has been tried and

01:22:45   a lot has failed and I think it's,

01:22:48   when you look at like to get a lot of work done,

01:22:51   a lot of precise complicated work done,

01:22:54   a keyboard and a pointing device and a screen

01:22:57   is really, really effective.

01:23:00   And again, that might not be the most ideal solution

01:23:03   but we have a lot of inertia behind that solution.

01:23:05   - Well you just gotta wait until it becomes the,

01:23:09   it becomes the best way to do it.

01:23:11   Like touch screens, we had touch screens forever.

01:23:12   People hated them, people just hated touch screens.

01:23:14   How long have we had touchscreens?

01:23:15   My whole, practically my whole life

01:23:17   we've had touchscreens and universally reviled, right?

01:23:20   And does that mean touchscreens are a bad idea?

01:23:22   It's like, no, someone eventually has to do them

01:23:24   right enough that you go, oh yeah, touchscreens.

01:23:27   Apple happened to be the one that got there, right?

01:23:29   And so VR is the same way.

01:23:31   We've had VR forever.

01:23:32   Every time we've seen it, it's like,

01:23:35   half the time it wasn't even good as an amusement,

01:23:36   like those big giant heavy things you put on

01:23:38   in the '90s in a video arcade.

01:23:39   It wasn't even fun, right?

01:23:41   We're probably at the point now

01:23:43   or you can make fun games with it

01:23:44   if they can work out all the problems.

01:23:47   But we'll know it when someone finally

01:23:49   crosses that threshold.

01:23:50   And it's not like VR is a bad idea.

01:23:53   The reason people keep trying is because it's an amazing idea.

01:23:56   You just gotta be the first one to do it right enough

01:23:58   that people go, "Oh, yes, every other,"

01:24:00   and people will say, "Every other previous effort

01:24:02   "of VR or AR sucked, and this is the one that's good."

01:24:06   And you won't even have to convince people

01:24:07   because no one needs to be convinced now

01:24:08   that touch screens are a good thing.

01:24:10   and people born in the post smartphone era

01:24:14   will never believe you.

01:24:15   And we said, well, for all my life,

01:24:16   touch screens were terrible and everybody hated them.

01:24:18   And it's like, well, what was different about them?

01:24:20   They were slightly less responsive.

01:24:21   Like that's it?

01:24:22   (laughing)

01:24:23   Yeah, that's pretty much it.

01:24:24   Some of them had to press real hard.

01:24:25   Some of them were a little bit less responsive.

01:24:27   Like it doesn't take much, right?

01:24:29   So that's why people are excited about Oculus

01:24:30   because it seems like,

01:24:32   and again, I haven't tried it myself,

01:24:33   but it seems like they've crossed that threshold

01:24:35   into no longer sucking for games.

01:24:37   And we'll see.

01:24:38   - I've tried an Oculus Rift.

01:24:40   - Which one?

01:24:41   - I have no idea.

01:24:42   As soon as I tweeted about it, everyone was like,

01:24:43   "Which one, which one, I'm not lying."

01:24:45   Fricking clue.

01:24:46   But I tried one.

01:24:47   I genuinely don't know which one.

01:24:49   I'm not trying to be funny.

01:24:50   I tried it for two minutes and it was cool as hell.

01:24:55   And I was playing like one game where I was flying around

01:24:59   and like shooting at something or other.

01:25:02   And I played another game where basically I was just,

01:25:04   well, I don't even know if it was a game to be honest.

01:25:05   I was just walking around like a balcony

01:25:07   on the edge of a cliff.

01:25:08   and it's freaking trippy, man.

01:25:11   It is weird.

01:25:12   I am not typically prone to motion sickness,

01:25:15   so I didn't get any,

01:25:16   and I only had the headset on for a couple of minutes,

01:25:19   but I would assume since there is even the slightest bit

01:25:24   of potential latency between real world and it,

01:25:27   that, Jon, you would vomit profusely.

01:25:30   But I mean, I thought it was spot on.

01:25:33   I thought it was really cool.

01:25:34   - Well, I think that that's the challenges they're taking.

01:25:36   One of them is motion sickness.

01:25:37   can you make this so that a reasonable percentage

01:25:41   of the population does not get motion sick

01:25:42   and you just have to keep trying to make it,

01:25:44   you know, reduce the lag and, you know, make it

01:25:47   because most people don't get motion sick

01:25:49   just walking around all day in a 3D world.

01:25:51   Once you put that thing on your head,

01:25:52   any disagreement between what your inner ear is telling you

01:25:57   and what your eyes are seeing is going to be interpreted

01:25:59   by people who are prone to motion sickness as, you know,

01:26:01   maybe you've eaten poison, you should vomit that up now.

01:26:06   So like that's the problem they're working on.

01:26:08   Essentially, you know, what they're saying is,

01:26:09   oh, we're looking at low latency displays

01:26:11   and reduced tearing and reduced latency,

01:26:13   but then all that builds up to,

01:26:14   is this something that a large enough portion

01:26:16   of the population can use and we'll find fun?

01:26:18   Because that's the goal, you want people to buy it, right?

01:26:21   And it seems like they're getting closer

01:26:23   to that threshold, right?

01:26:25   But that's just for games.

01:26:26   Microsoft, nothing so far that I've read or seen,

01:26:29   I've read a lot but not seen much,

01:26:32   has convinced me that they have reached the iOS moment,

01:26:37   the iPhone moment for touch screens.

01:26:40   Like they have, you know,

01:26:41   this is a thing that everyone will wanna use.

01:26:43   It's not just an entertainment,

01:26:45   it is actually a better way for you to interact

01:26:47   with software because of recent XYZ.

01:26:50   And I haven't seen that yet.

01:26:52   - Yeah, it seems like a very good technical achievement

01:26:57   in the labs so far that might make

01:27:00   for a very good product, but that no one has quite figured out what's the killer app.

01:27:08   What will make it worth spending $500 or $1000 on one of these things and possibly changing

01:27:15   the entire way you work physically or your desk setup or whatever? What will make it

01:27:19   worth all that cost and change? That's so much better on this thing than on what you

01:27:26   have.

01:27:27   that you sound old, killer app.

01:27:28   That's what people used to say of like,

01:27:30   well, it's great and all,

01:27:31   but you need the killer app for your platform.

01:27:32   But like the touchscreen did not have a killer app

01:27:35   in the sense of like, you know, an application made touch,

01:27:38   like the whole thing, the whole experience

01:27:41   of a handheld thing that's mostly a screen,

01:27:44   that was essentially the quote unquote killer app.

01:27:46   But like that phrase was back from the days

01:27:48   when it was literally a single application.

01:27:50   Like, oh, you need a Mac because it has page maker, right?

01:27:53   Or you can get Photoshop or whatever.

01:27:54   Like that was a killer app

01:27:55   that was attractive for your platform.

01:27:57   The killer route for touch screens was,

01:27:59   touch screens are better for everything on a phone,

01:28:01   practically.

01:28:03   Maybe borderline keyboard,

01:28:04   but they're so much better at everything else

01:28:06   that the trade-off is worth it.

01:28:08   - I think, I mean, one of the biggest challenges

01:28:10   they might have with this,

01:28:11   and I know this sounds really superficial,

01:28:13   but trust me, it will matter, is portability.

01:28:17   You know, the reality is, I think most people today

01:28:19   do their work on a laptop.

01:28:21   Desktops are really a dying breed,

01:28:24   and again, they're never gonna be dead,

01:28:27   but certainly laptops are the default computer

01:28:30   for most people.

01:28:32   And mobility matters for a lot of those people,

01:28:34   not all of them, interestingly,

01:28:36   but for a lot of them it matters.

01:28:38   And if this thing is something that goes on your head

01:28:40   and has these screens or whatever,

01:28:42   that actually might not fold nice and flat

01:28:46   and skinny and light into a bag.

01:28:48   - Oh, HoloLens is actually better than Oculus

01:28:50   because Oculus is like giant ski goggles, right?

01:28:52   And so, you know, they seem to actually be,

01:28:54   because they're AR and not VR,

01:28:55   like you can see through the lenses.

01:28:57   You're wearing glasses that you can see the real world in

01:28:59   and they just overlay images onto it.

01:29:02   VR is like, you know, completely covered.

01:29:04   You can't see anything outside,

01:29:05   which is why it's mostly better for entertainment

01:29:08   where you don't need to see the outside world,

01:29:10   but not so good for an office setting

01:29:12   where you'd have a bunch of people

01:29:13   who are essentially blindfolded.

01:29:15   - Well, also I would expect to have,

01:29:17   not knowing anything about this, admittedly,

01:29:19   I would expect that AR is probably a lot easier

01:29:22   to work out the motion sickness problems for.

01:29:24   - Yeah, probably because you do have the visual cues

01:29:27   of everything else, but then what that does

01:29:29   is it reveals all of your,

01:29:30   that's what people were saying about the tech demo.

01:29:32   Like it reveals any latency or miscalibration you have

01:29:35   is revealed because the real world is, you know,

01:29:37   it stays perfectly steady.

01:29:39   And they would say, like, I looked at a coffee table

01:29:41   and there was a Minecraft structure on it.

01:29:43   And they'd pretty much say,

01:29:45   it looks solidly stuck to the table.

01:29:46   I couldn't, when I wiggled my head,

01:29:48   the Minecraft structure didn't like,

01:29:49   well, it moved, you know, move from side to side

01:29:51   or jiggle like, or it looks like there was a hole

01:29:53   in the coffee table and there was like a thing down

01:29:55   and like, no matter how I looked at that hole,

01:29:57   it still looked like a hole.

01:29:58   I'd never sort of lost track of where the coffee table was

01:30:00   and accidentally drew it a millimeter to the left

01:30:02   and then to the right,

01:30:03   because that takes you out of the illusion.

01:30:04   It's like bad special effects, like, oh, okay, well,

01:30:07   the coffee table's real,

01:30:08   but the little castle on top of it isn't, you know,

01:30:10   ignoring like photorealism and lighting,

01:30:12   just to have it connected to the world.

01:30:14   And that's one of the big problems in AR

01:30:16   and it seems like Microsoft has solved that pretty well,

01:30:18   But it's like, OK, now what do you do with that?

01:30:21   Besides put Minecraft castles on tables.

01:30:24   Why wouldn't you?

01:30:26   I have one. I put it in the after show.

01:30:28   I have sad TV news for before we go.

01:30:31   Oh, no, what happened?

01:30:33   Sad, sad, sad TV news.

01:30:35   It's sad on multiple levels.

01:30:37   So I've got my fancy TV that I like.

01:30:40   It's a Panasonic plasma TV.

01:30:42   I know all about plasma TVs and their limitations.

01:30:46   I take very good care of my television, or so I thought, encouraging all the kids not

01:30:53   to leave television shows paused, making my children watch 4x3 live action television

01:30:58   shows stretched out into 16x9 just so I fill the entire screen.

01:31:02   But recently, I recently got a Playstation 4 and I've been playing a lot of Destiny on

01:31:06   it and that turned out to be a mistake.

01:31:09   We got about maybe 80 hours into Destiny split between me and my son and we both really liked

01:31:15   the game despite its flaws, perhaps because of its flaws I'm not sure anymore.

01:31:20   But Destiny has one feature that I should have paid more attention to and didn't.

01:31:24   And in the lower left corner of the screen while you're playing Destiny is a heads up

01:31:28   display that shows a 100% yellow line and 100% white silhouettes of guns.

01:31:35   And when I was flipping inputs the other day I noticed that I could still see the yellow

01:31:39   line and the little silhouettes of the guns in the corner of my screen and I said "Noooooo!"

01:31:43   - Oh no. - Oh no.

01:31:45   - So this is sad for multiple reasons.

01:31:49   Now one,

01:31:50   so quick Googling led to a giant jackpot of people

01:31:58   begging Bungie to make the HUD transparent

01:32:00   or to make it optional.

01:32:02   This is something that most games are good about,

01:32:05   giving you a way,

01:32:07   all you need to do is make it a little bit transparent

01:32:09   because the background is constantly changing, right?

01:32:11   The problem is when you make something opaque,

01:32:13   then it never changes and it's just there

01:32:15   for just hour after hour and it's terrible.

01:32:17   Bungie hasn't done that yet.

01:32:18   I saw one acknowledgement that they acknowledged

01:32:20   that they've heard this complaint before

01:32:22   and they can't give any timelines and blah, blah, blah,

01:32:23   but that was back in November.

01:32:24   So there hasn't been a patch yet to fix this.

01:32:27   And the second thing is regarding Plasma TVs,

01:32:30   there is image retention and burn-in.

01:32:33   And the only difference is as far as I can tell

01:32:35   that burn-in is considered permanent

01:32:36   and image retention is considered not permanent.

01:32:38   Is what I have permanent or not?

01:32:40   Many stories from people who have played past games

01:32:42   in their Plasma TVs, not just Destiny,

01:32:44   but many other games say, "I stopped playing the game

01:32:47   and it took months for it to go away, but it eventually did."

01:32:49   Other people say, "It never went away."

01:32:51   And so like the people who say it never went away,

01:32:52   they had burned it and the other people had image retention.

01:32:54   And there's different debates.

01:32:56   So they're, if your Plasma TV supports 3D,

01:32:58   it's more susceptible to either image retention

01:33:00   or burn-in or whatever.

01:33:01   And anyway, my TV has a screen wipe feature

01:33:04   that puts white across bar across the screen

01:33:06   that's supposed to help.

01:33:08   But the bottom line is from what I've read,

01:33:11   The best cure is to just simply continue to use your TV as normal, don't play that game anymore,

01:33:15   wait several months to a year, and maybe it will go away.

01:33:18   I think it has faded already, but the worst part of this is now Destiny is banned from my television

01:33:24   until they pass that to the thing, which means that I can't play Destiny,

01:33:28   which also means that my son can't play Destiny, and that is the worst part of this.

01:33:32   Well, second worst, I think. If that thing stays on my screen, I'll be super pissed.

01:33:35   No one else at this point, I think no one else would even notice it unless I pointed it out,

01:33:38   because it is actually fairly faint, but you know me.

01:33:41   So my solution to this is I'm buying a gaming monitor,

01:33:45   1080p gaming monitor,

01:33:46   and I'm gonna move the PlayStation 4

01:33:48   into the computer room and play it there

01:33:50   instead of on the television,

01:33:51   because we got a player destiny.

01:33:53   These guns aren't gonna level themselves.

01:33:57   - Wow, so let me ask you a serious question.

01:34:00   I'm not trying to troll you.

01:34:04   You bought this TV, this specifically a plasma TV.

01:34:08   If I understand things correctly

01:34:10   because the blacks are better,

01:34:13   but otherwise it's mostly the same as any other TV.

01:34:17   Is that?

01:34:18   - No, pretty much everything about it's better.

01:34:20   It handles motion better, the color accuracy is better,

01:34:23   the blacks are better.

01:34:24   It is better than any television you could buy

01:34:27   except for the possibility of OLEDs,

01:34:30   but OLEDs by the way also have burning problems.

01:34:32   Well, anyway, what I'm driving at is you bought this TV for a difference that probably only

01:34:40   your robot eyes can see.

01:34:42   No, anybody could see it.

01:34:44   Anybody could see it.

01:34:45   Put them next to each other in a showroom.

01:34:46   You will pick my TV as the better looking one.

01:34:48   Yet, you can't use the TV to do the one thing you want to do with it, which is play Destiny.

01:34:52   No, because Destiny, like for video games, I don't-

01:34:54   Oh, it's all the game's fault, right.

01:34:56   No, no.

01:34:57   Well, the motion is an important thing in gaming, right?

01:35:00   But the thing I really want good picture for is for television and movies, like live action,

01:35:05   because games, they're limited by the graphics that are in the games.

01:35:08   They're not photorealistic.

01:35:10   And I want to watch my favorite movies and television shows and all that other stuff

01:35:16   on my nice fancy screen.

01:35:17   I'm perfectly happy to move my gaming to a little 23-inch monitor in the computer room,

01:35:23   right?

01:35:24   But I am not happy...

01:35:25   I wouldn't be happy to watch like my Studio Ghibli Blu-ray on a little tiny computer screen

01:35:31   or to watch Godfather movies on a little tiny computer screen or to watch the next season

01:35:35   of Game of Thrones on a little tiny computer screen.

01:35:37   So what I'm trying to do is preserve my TV for its intended purpose, which is watching

01:35:43   television and movies.

01:35:45   Its intended purpose is not gaming.

01:35:47   In fact, the monitor will probably have a much lower input lag and lower latency than

01:35:51   my television does for gaming.

01:35:52   I tried to get a TV that has a low input lag as possible to make it acceptable for gaming

01:35:56   But it'll probably be much better on this monitor that I got

01:35:58   All right, well, I'm sad to hear that

01:36:01   Yeah, and I worried about it for other games too like Zelda games have HUDs and stuff too

01:36:05   But all you need is a little bit of transparency

01:36:06   And you know it has not been a problem with any and I've gamed a lot of that like hundreds and hundreds of hours

01:36:11   I've gamed on this TV and my previous TV so

01:36:15   Some of the chair who's complaining that stretching 4x3 is a crime. I'm not saying I watch shows like that

01:36:20   I'm saying I make my kids watch

01:36:22   They're watching Full House. It's standard death there. I'll make I make them stretch it they watch Full House

01:36:27   Yeah, that's their reruns for it that the show looks awful in any in any aspect ratio. Oh come on cut it out

01:36:34   No