0:00:00I have too many freaking t-shirts.
0:00:01I made the mistake of using my,
0:00:04the system I have for storing t-shirts
0:00:05is like my nerd t-shirts go on hangers
0:00:08instead of being folded up.
0:00:09And I figured that's fine when I have two nerd t-shirts
0:00:12and I have a thousand nerd t-shirts
0:00:14and half my closet is nerd t-shirts and hangers.
0:00:17I just really need more closet space.
0:00:19That's the main problem.
0:00:20(electronic beeping)
0:00:22- We should probably actually start the show.
0:00:23So we have some follow-up from all the way
0:00:26across the planet in Australia.
0:00:28John, would you like to tell us about what Wade from Australia said?
0:00:31This is the best theory I've heard so far, although it's still kind of vague and shaky
0:00:36because based on fake products and rumors of why a 12-inch MacBook Air might only have
0:00:43one USB port on it instead of two.
0:00:46Oh, geez.
0:00:47I cannot wait for this thing to come out so we can stop talking about it.
0:00:49Yeah.
0:00:50No, but that's the worst part of the rumor.
0:00:51It's like, yeah, we're retinas green, really thin, blah, blah, blah, blah.
0:00:54And like the one they throw is like, one port?
0:00:56Why would you do that on purpose?
0:00:57And then you're like, I just, I need to have a reason
0:01:00because it just doesn't make any sense otherwise.
0:01:04So this is about the PCI express lanes.
0:01:06How many PCI express lanes are supported
0:01:09by the core M chip set that we assume
0:01:11this fake product will use.
0:01:12And according to Wade from Australia,
0:01:16it supports 12 lanes of PCI express, four gigabits per lane.
0:01:20So it means you need more than two lanes per USB 3.1 port
0:01:24if you want the full speed, which I would assume they do.
0:01:27So if you start adding up the ports,
0:01:29you end up with one lane for the PCI Express SSD
0:01:32and one for like Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and stuff like that.
0:01:35And you can get the chip set
0:01:37with different combinations of lanes.
0:01:38And Wade's speculation is that
0:01:41if you can fit everything in four lanes,
0:01:45then you don't have to,
0:01:46you can get a chip set that just has those four lanes
0:01:48you don't need to spend power
0:01:50like pulling the other lanes for devices.
0:01:51Like in other words, you could shut down some of the lanes.
0:01:55You're going to need more than four single lanes just for USB 3.1
0:02:00So you need three lanes for that and two more for other radios in the SSD
0:02:03So you're already at five if you want to add another port you have to bump it up at least from five to eight
0:02:09And I guess all this depends on do you really get a big power savings from keeping it at or under four at or under?
0:02:15Five like is there a point at which?
0:02:17You have to spend like the power budget takes a leap is just you know does it not scale linearly so
0:02:24PCI Express lanes are a sort of the
0:02:26the
0:02:28currency of the internals of
0:02:30modern Macs in terms of how many do you have and then what can you spend them on and stuff like that because you know
0:02:34Once you're out of them, you're out of them. And all the other thing is that USB
0:02:383.1 is not built into the chipsets. That's why you need to use PCI Express lanes
0:02:42not like it's not it's not integrated into the chipsets, so
0:02:48Buy more of these theories because it plays into
0:02:51hardware constraints that Apple doesn't have control over and also power saving but you know
0:02:56It's a speculated machine from a mock-up and we don't know exactly what kind of trash they have and you never know
0:03:02What kind of crazy stuff that Apple has inside their laptops again with the history of the repackaged chip in the original MacBook Air
0:03:09Who's to say the things that are offered by Intel right now are the things that constrain Apple specifically?
0:03:15So we'll wait and see I don't I don't think we've ever actually seen correct me if I'm wrong
0:03:19but just off the top of my head here,
0:03:21I don't think we've ever actually seen Intel
0:03:24give Apple access to a chipset, or even a chip itself,
0:03:29that wasn't available on the market,
0:03:31with the one exception of the original MacBook Air,
0:03:33but that was only a, that was like a physical repackaging,
0:03:36like to make the pins smaller, but like the chip,
0:03:38the die was still the same
0:03:39as what everyone else was getting.
0:03:40- Well, I assume Apple would be willing
0:03:42to put another chip on the board
0:03:44that's not part of Intel's chipset,
0:03:45like, well, the chipset has this,
0:03:46and then we buy from whatever other weird manufacturer
0:03:49that we have some relationship with for iOS hardware or something.
0:03:51This other chip that gives I mean, they have to add a chip anyway
0:03:55for the USB three controller.
0:03:56And so who is making that controller chip for them?
0:03:59They could probably get that company to make a special chip just for them.
0:04:03And I don't know, like I'm not willing to rule out almost anything
0:04:07because Apple has such incredible volumes and such leverage with with chip makers
0:04:12that, yeah, they more or less can't make Intel do special things for them.
0:04:15But at this point, like if you look at the Iris Pro graphics and everything,
0:04:18who has been leaning on Intel so hard for the many, many years to improve their GPUs?
0:04:24I would attribute a lot of Intel's recent GPU focus on the things that Apple said that
0:04:29it needs from them and has influenced their multi-year roadmap.
0:04:32They don't get it exclusively, everybody gets it, but that kind of focus and the fact that
0:04:38these chips show up in Apple's machines, I would assume there's a lot of influence there
0:04:42in terms of what Intel decides to make.
0:04:46So we also had some feedback from Tom Holliday.
0:04:51He had said that the rumored 12-inch lack of Thunderbolt sorrows me.
0:04:55The MacBook Air plus 27-inch Thunderbolt display configuration allows "sesile components"
0:05:00– I've never heard that word before.
0:05:02Look it up!
0:05:03I thought it was like a typo for several.
0:05:06I don't know.
0:05:07Nope, it's not.
0:05:08It's a word.
0:05:09"Sesile."
0:05:10SAT word.
0:05:11Of an organism, for example, a barnacle fixed in one place or immobile.
0:05:15Ah, gotcha.
0:05:16- There's a word, I learned that word as a description
0:05:18of my friend's cat when I was in high school.
0:05:21That was the SAT word association.
0:05:23(laughing)
0:05:24Dan's cat is sessile and it's true.
0:05:27- Okay, so the Thunderbolt,
0:05:28the MacBook Air plus 27 inch Thunderbolt display
0:05:30configuration allows sessile components
0:05:32like external hard drives, scanners, and printers,
0:05:34and a 27 inch display to be set up for the desktop
0:05:37while the MacBook retains portability.
0:05:39- Yeah, I put this in the notes because
0:05:42we talked about this in the past shows,
0:05:45But all these things that you get out of Thunderbolt,
0:05:48in terms of having multiple devices going through one
0:05:51particular chain, you could approximate them.
0:05:55You get the display.
0:05:56You get the USB.
0:05:58You could have a USB type hub thing.
0:05:59You could connect hard drives through USB.
0:06:03And it wouldn't be maybe as nice or as fancy as Thunderbolt is.
0:06:07But the question that I had that this brought to mind
0:06:09is, does this mean-- if Apple comes out with this thing,
0:06:13You know thunderbolts is off most of those machines and everything is USB 3
0:06:16Assuming they ever revise their stupid monitors does the next equivalent of the Thunderbolt display?
0:06:22Try to replace the Thunderbolt display with one that connects just through USB
0:06:28Or is that not something they're interested in anymore because I use the same arrangement like you have a portable machine you plug one cable
0:06:35Into it and then you have all the other ports that don't fit on the laptop and it's a really nice arrangement
0:06:40That will go away with this unless Apple comes out with a new display
0:06:44That's like their USB hub display where you know the the external monitor
0:06:48It's one cable you plug it in and you get a USB hub where you can hook up all your hard drives and everything and you
0:06:53Also get the display all through a single cable
0:06:55And I would certainly hope that they would because I have lusted after the Thunderbolt display since it was a thing
0:07:01It's been like two or three years now, right?
0:07:04But anyway, I've wanted one so badly
0:07:07but I'm way too cheap to buy one and I would hope that they would still do this kind of a setup, but I
0:07:12am extremely skeptical that they would do this kind of a setup because
0:07:16Apple just I mean when is Apple ever really believed in in a docking station there was that one where like the the whole entire
0:07:22Folded up laptop slid into it Stephen Hackett is furious right now. I don't remember the name of it duo doc
0:07:28Thank you
0:07:29But I mean other than that like docking station is not really a thing which is
0:07:32Actually kind of frustrating to me because I work in an office full of Dells where they all have these docking stations
0:07:37Which are aesthetically hideous, but functionally awesome, and I kind of wish that my Mac would do something similar
0:07:44But yeah, I I don't know. I don't see them really putting too much effort into that
0:07:49Well, I mean the answer to that is those like Belkin and Thunderbolt dock things, but nobody really buys those as far as I can tell
0:07:55Well, they're so expensive. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean now I think they're like 200 bucks down from 300
0:08:00but still it's still a lot but still like
0:08:02I don't see I think if this is the direction Apple is going with all of their laptops
0:08:07They might be concerned with things like this, but for this one model
0:08:11I don't think we need to read too much into again and again this is assuming it's all correct with these rumors
0:08:16but I don't think I have to read too much into it because
0:08:19You guys are all talking about from the perspective of people who use laptops
0:08:23much of the time or most of the time as desktops with a bunch of stuff plugged into them and have these these heavy external needs I
0:08:31I think it's a good idea for most of Apple's laptops to cater to that because that is probably how most laptops that are sold are actually used.
0:08:38Especially with power users where you're plugging a bunch of stuff in and might have an external monitor and stuff.
0:08:43But I think there is nothing wrong with Apple having a model in the lineup that does not cater to being plugged into stuff all the time.
0:08:51That won't be good at that. I mean the original MacBook Air was awful about that.
0:08:56The newer ones only got better because of Thunderbolt.
0:08:59I think there is nothing saying that Apple needs
0:09:04to solve the problem of lots of good external bandwidth
0:09:08or external ports or anything like that
0:09:10with this model of MacBook.
0:09:12I think they could be just fine with this one,
0:09:14mostly made to be portable, to not be used
0:09:18while plugged into a bunch of stuff most of the time.
0:09:20- Yeah, you know, I think you might be onto something there
0:09:23because now that I'm thinking about my own example
0:09:25of work in docking stations, I think a lot of the reason
0:09:28we have the docking stations everywhere and dual monitors everywhere is just because it's nice to
0:09:33have it. But for non-developers, you know, my company that I work for is probably half business
0:09:40consultants and half technical consultants like myself. For the business folks, I think they like
0:09:46having a second monitor, but I would guess that most of them would tell you, "Well, you know,
0:09:51if it went away, whatever." And so if I think about it, typically they're not plugging in an
0:09:57external hard drive. Typically they're not plugging in Ethernet. Typically they're not
0:10:01plugging in an external monitor unless it just happens to be sitting there. So generally
0:10:05speaking a lot of these folks all they plug in is power to your point Marco and that's
0:10:09it. And so would it really matter if this hyper portable computer only can take power
0:10:14in one other thing? Maybe not. You know the this Macbook Air two things about it like
0:10:21potentially like can't they just have one model on the line. One I think the rumor maybe
0:10:25Maybe not this specific when we were talking about the 9-5 Mac one, but for the past few
0:10:28years it was like, "Oh, the 11 and the 13 are going away and it will just be replaced
0:10:31by a single 12."
0:10:33If that ends up being the case, it's fine for them to have one model that would be like
0:10:37this, but if you're replacing two models with it, it seems weird that, you know, for the
0:10:42people who wanted something ultra-portable and you don't care about the ports, the 11
0:10:45inch makes sense, and for the people who want a bigger, sort of more full-sized laptop than
0:10:48the 13 inch, but if you replace them both with the 12, it's kind of weird for it to
0:10:53say that oh you know you can't use this one like use other ones like to revert to the original
0:10:57macbook air but there is an advantage to not using thunderbolt and it mostly has to do with the
0:11:02annoying nature of thunderbolt so as we have a thunderbolt display here and a macbook air
0:11:07and it's got the little little squid type cable coming out the end of it where it's got the mag
0:11:14safe power thing to power your laptop from the monitor and then it also has the thunderbolt cable
0:11:20And part of it is that they made the little squid tentacles too short,
0:11:24so that because they're on opposite sides of the MacBook Air,
0:11:26you have to put the Thunderbolt on the left side facing you and the power on
0:11:30the or whatever is the opposite, the power on the left side of the Thunderbolt
0:11:33on the right. And the Thunderbolt connector,
0:11:36because it has a chip in the connector itself,
0:11:38it sticks out like an inch from the computer with this big, you know, inflexible,
0:11:43you know, the hard plastic part of the connector.
0:11:46And it's just not it's not great.
0:11:48Like the cables have are sharp angles and it makes the thing wider and it's not nice-looking
0:11:54With the USB thing, even though it can't do all the things that Thunderbolt can do
0:11:59One the cable won't have a giant inch long hard plastic connector sticking out of it
0:12:04It can be a much, you know smaller more flexible thing and two if they combine the power with it
0:12:09You also won't need to have the split squid thing where you have the mag save on one side and you know
0:12:14You will literally be able to plug in just one cable instead of right now
0:12:17"Oh, it's one cable, but it splits in two at the end."
0:12:20And that splitting is kind of annoying.
0:12:21Every time you take it apart, you gotta take it,
0:12:23you know, pull the things out from each other
0:12:26and then it slides behind the thing.
0:12:27If you just have one little cable that was a USB cable,
0:12:29I would, it would be easier to sort of plug and unplug.
0:12:32And I'm generally anti-dock
0:12:33because of the whole docking procedure being awkward.
0:12:36I'd much rather just put it down on the desk
0:12:38and plug in one small cable.
0:12:39- Yeah, I agree with you.
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0:13:40Now Casey, you're a consultant.
0:13:42- Indeed.
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0:13:46I've only been a consultant briefly,
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0:13:51Is this a challenge?
0:13:53- It's a challenge if you're doing more
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0:13:57I'm lucky enough that generally speaking,
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0:14:19I taught myself C#.
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0:15:28Once again, I'm letting Casey track his hours
0:15:30with C hashtag perfectly fine.
0:15:32(laughing)
0:15:34- Yeah, one more thing I'll add to the stall
0:15:36bottom of the power.
0:15:37We briefly mentioned it before,
0:15:39but it's worth mentioning again.
0:15:42The idea-- we talked about, oh, get rid of MagSafe.
0:15:44Can you power it through USB?
0:15:46Yes, you can.
0:15:47Despite that, that you could either use MagSafe or USB,
0:15:51people also are interested in the idea of powering it
0:15:53the way the watch is powered, with a thing that
0:15:56doesn't plug into it, but a thing that sort of attaches
0:15:58to the outside.
0:15:59Please don't.
0:16:00Please.
0:16:00It's such a bad idea.
0:16:02And I don't think that makes any sense, because USB will work.
0:16:06We know that.
0:16:07It'll be fine.
0:16:09I'm not sure what the advantage would be to having a big, warty sort of metal thing that
0:16:16you place on top of it.
0:16:19Space is already at a premium and I'm not sure where you would put that.
0:16:23And then who wants to have a bunch of connectors with a big circle metal thing?
0:16:27I'm not even sure how that will work with the watch.
0:16:29Another thing is having some kind of pad or something to use inductive charging where
0:16:34you put it on the pad and it charges.
0:16:36That is a little bit better appeal because then you're not plugging stuff in, you're
0:16:38just chucking it down and you put stuff on the pad.
0:16:40I'm not sure how fast those chargers are, but it could be done.
0:16:44The problem pads have is, I think you still need something that you plug in, because yeah,
0:16:49you've got a pad in the place where you put it in your home, but when you travel, do you
0:16:52want to travel with a big pad or a little adapter?
0:16:55Having something to plug, the smallest possible thing that you can plug in, would be nice.
0:17:00Someone in the chat room asked, "Why would the pad have to be big?"
0:17:02Well, if it's small, then again, you're worrying about alignment issues or something.
0:17:06The whole idea is you just want to put the thing down somewhere and not align it and
0:17:09not stick a little warty thing on it.
0:17:12Plugging a little tiny thing into a little tiny port is actually very straightforward
0:17:15and fast compared to, at least in the past, the type of things that they've had where
0:17:19you put your phone down on a certain pad or whatever.
0:17:21That's why you want it to be kind of like a big thing where it doesn't matter where
0:17:23you put it, just put it anywhere, it'll charge, it'll be fine.
0:17:26So that's possible, but Apple really hasn't gone there and I think it mostly has to do
0:17:30with just the space that type of solution would take up and the fact that plugging in
0:17:34seems to work.
0:17:35The final one, which I think is the most fun one, it was brought to my attention by someone
0:17:39whose name is now lost to the midst of time.
0:17:42Someone sent me a link to a YouTube video called "Wytricity for wirelessly sending power."
0:17:46We'll put links to it in the show notes.
0:17:49The website is wytricity.com.
0:17:50You can take a look at it.
0:17:52And it made me recall our past conversations about the Artemis PSEL stuff for sort of doing
0:17:59targeted wireless to avoid interference and everything where you pre-calculate the sort
0:18:04of interference map of all the different sources of wireless and you focus the signal destined
0:18:10for your laptop right on your laptop.
0:18:12And one of the vague, rumor-y kind of hinty things was like, "Oh, we might be able to
0:18:16use this for something more than just sending data."
0:18:18And I think that was a hint at like, we could do wireless power because once we have the
0:18:23ability to focus a particular signal on a particular location, we can power things that
0:18:28way as well.
0:18:31Both of those seem crazy to me, but crazy in a fun way.
0:18:34I guess you could like, you know, accidentally slowly bake the inside of your hand if it's
0:18:39aiming the wireless power at the wrong spot and it's sort of microwaving your hand, that
0:18:42would be bad.
0:18:45But I don't know, like all of these, all these things that are possible, you know, because
0:18:50every time powering stuff comes up, people are like, this is not new technology, inductive
0:18:53stuff is not new, wireless power is not new, this is the things that work, you know, someone
0:18:57will bring out Nikola Tesla and say that we had this hundreds of years ago and just, you
0:19:01know, whatever.
0:19:03The physics and the technology behind it all seems to be there, but the products, like
0:19:07the products that people... it hasn't caught on to the degree that other technology has.
0:19:12Where, usually, you know, when... if something is going to gain traction, like really high
0:19:16res screens, like, well, do people really want that?
0:19:18Yeah, they more or less do.
0:19:20Even though they can't really tell, it just catches on, it goes through everything, and
0:19:22pretty soon the giant chunky pixels will be gone from a handheld device.
0:19:25It's just because it's better, it's unequivocally better, everybody likes it better, you can
0:19:29do more things with it, it looks sharper, even if most people can't tell, it's good.
0:19:32inductive charging, wireless power, all those things have not made that
0:19:38breakthrough. Is it because they just haven't been done right or is it because
0:19:42the thing they're trying to replace is not as annoying as people think it is
0:19:47and people don't mind just plugging something in and it's more
0:19:50straightforward or I don't know. But I would love to see one of these things
0:19:56I've never used any of these for any appreciable period of time but I'd love to
0:19:59to see one of them actually end up being like the new thing because all of them have that
0:20:03sci-fi kind of feel where it's like plugging things in it's like you know Back to the Future
0:20:08which we should celebrate Back to the Future Part 2 which is celebrated because we are
0:20:10now in the year of Back to the Future Part 2 where he sees the what was it the name of
0:20:15the video game in the future.
0:20:18Diana what the hell was that?
0:20:20I haven't seen Back to the Future 2 in years.
0:20:24Anyway Marty McFly goes over to it and he picks up the little plastic like gun thing
0:20:29at the screen like use your hands it's like a baby's toy well you plug it in
0:20:34how barbaric we're not there yet but it would be cool John I love that Marco and
0:20:39I have beaten you down to the point that you have to go on a preamble to make
0:20:43your pop culture reference make sense I just couldn't remember the name of the
0:20:47thing was I don't know one in the chat room has it yet
0:20:49face was here she would know it's it's a like a Western and shoot-em-up game wild
0:20:53- I'm old.
0:20:54- I'm old.
0:20:55- Someone in the chat room thinks I can't tell if that's.
0:20:57- Right.
0:20:58- Anyway.
0:20:59I'm old.
0:21:01- Oh goodness.
0:21:02- Now I think everyone who's searching for
0:21:06all these crazy complex systems of charging this
0:21:09theoretical rumored laptop,
0:21:10I think you know, John, what you said a minute ago,
0:21:12like almost all of these, even if they worked,
0:21:15would probably be more annoying
0:21:16or have other big downsides in practice.
0:21:19The fact is, if it still has any ports at all,
0:21:23then it's worth just charging it with a cable
0:21:25because that's going to be better.
0:21:27No matter what kind of cable that is,
0:21:28that's going to be better
0:21:29than any other kind of weird induction or wireless
0:21:32or matte induction or clip-on induction kind of schemes.
0:21:35Like it's just none of those things,
0:21:38if you actually think about what it would be like
0:21:39to use them in practice, in real life,
0:21:42I just don't think any of those things
0:21:44would be overall less annoying and better
0:21:46than just a decent cable.
0:21:48And they already have decent cables.
0:21:49MagSafe is pretty good.
0:21:50Like there's nothing wrong with MagSafe.
0:21:54And if they end up using the USB power thing to do that,
0:21:57that's probably gonna be perfectly fine too.
0:22:00It's probably not a big deal.
0:22:01The only reason the watch has to do it really is
0:22:04because the watch is water sealed.
0:22:06So the watch has no openings.
0:22:08So they had to do some kind of other system
0:22:11besides a cable that just plugs in.
0:22:13And it clips onto this giant,
0:22:15is the back plate sapphire or is it ceramic or something?
0:22:19It's something that's not metal because if you would clip
0:22:22with MagSafe, this giant metal disk onto a metal laptop,
0:22:26it would scratch the hell out of it.
0:22:28Just like the iPad 3 smart cover,
0:22:30or the iPad 2 smart cover, the metal one.
0:22:33So all these things are like,
0:22:35they're searching for solutions to what really isn't
0:22:38that big of a problem, which is a laptop that has any ports
0:22:40at all can still have a power plug and that'll be fine.
0:22:43- Fair enough.
0:22:45You don't, wait, you don't think there's anything wrong
0:22:48with MagSafe?
0:22:49I will admit I liked MagSafe 1 better than MagSafe 2.
0:22:52MagSafe 2 comes out accidentally more easily in the vertical direction when pressed.
0:22:59But it's not that bad.
0:23:00Like other than that, that's my only problem with it.
0:23:03I'm a little bit...
0:23:05I think the weakness of MagSafe, both versions, is the tiny little contacts.
0:23:11I've seen a lot of pictures of and stories about MagSafe things that somehow either got
0:23:18misaligned or something wedged in there or something caused a short inside that little tiny area because it is everything is so fine and like
0:23:24You just need one little iron filing from a silly kids toy to float in over there
0:23:28And you plug it in and it fries the thing and it would be nice if it wasn't that if it was more resistant to
0:23:35Stuff I'm not sure what you would replace it with though because I think the tiny USB connectors probably had the same problem maybe
0:23:40But yeah, I agree that mag safe 2 is worse than 1
0:23:45But I'm not sure with the with the shrinking sizes. I'm not sure how
0:23:49What you can do to mag safe to make it better while also making it smaller whereas something that plugs in
0:23:56You know
0:23:58Again, it comes out of the question. We talked about before does if the USB
0:24:023 connector the tiny little one
0:24:04Does that come out just as easily as mag safe when you trip over the cable or does it not like what size does it?
0:24:10Start becoming like this is just as good as mag safe in terms of trip resistance
0:24:14and I don't know until someone buys one of these things
0:24:17or buy some other USB three device
0:24:18and start stripping over it.
0:24:20- All right, can we move on to any other topic?
0:24:24- Yes, we have corrections for you and Jon
0:24:27with regard to reliability probability.
0:24:30- Oh my God.
0:24:31- I don't think they're really corrections
0:24:32because both of us tried so hard
0:24:36to stay away from the math part.
0:24:37Like we didn't wanna talk about the math,
0:24:39we just hand-waved it.
0:24:40And yet the hand-waving,
0:24:41because we use mathematical words
0:24:42about like addition, additive, and multiplicative,
0:24:45you know, then that was enough to trigger
0:24:47the math people to come tell us how wrong we were.
0:24:49Like, I think we all knew we were gonna be wrong.
0:24:51We didn't know the math, but there's two posts about this.
0:24:55Actually, there was a good email about it too,
0:24:56which unfortunately we can't link the email,
0:24:58but it was too long and complicated to explain.
0:25:00But Dr. Durang has one explaining
0:25:02the actual math of the probability stuff.
0:25:05Kieran Haley has one explaining
0:25:06what he thinks we probably meant,
0:25:07and I think he's closer.
0:25:09If I had to re-summarize this discussion,
0:25:11I would say there were two points.
0:25:12both not involving math. One is the idea that if you have something with a
0:25:21certain reliability and you add a second thing, even if the reliability is just as
0:25:25good as the first thing, if for your entire system to be successful they both
0:25:29have to work, you've decreased the reliability of your system even though
0:25:32the thing you added is just as reliable as the other thing. So that was one
0:25:36counterintuitive thing that people might not think of. It's like, "Oh well if I add
0:25:39the second thing and it's just as reliable as the first thing, the total
0:25:41reliability is the same. No, it's worse. So that's one. And the second thing is, the sort
0:25:46of -- I don't want to use this phrase because it's probably wrong, but I'll say it anyway
0:25:49-- network effect of when you add more and more devices, you have three devices and when
0:25:54you had one before, you don't get three times the number of things you can do because if
0:25:58they all interact with each other, the number of possible connections and interactions between
0:26:01them goes up much faster than linearly. And that's the sort of multiplicative effect that
0:26:06I think Marco was the first one to mention.
0:26:07>> Yeah, the handshake problem, right?
0:26:09Yeah, that by adding you may add one device than another one and you don't just get three times
0:26:14the number of things that you can do you get much much more than that if they all
0:26:17Interact with each other and so the first point combined with the second means that the sort of intuitive
0:26:23Sense that when I have a computer there's one thing and I have a computer and a phone
0:26:28That's two things and it should be roughly like, you know
0:26:31It should
0:26:33First people would think if the phone is just as reliable as the computer my total system
0:26:38Reliability has not gone down, but it totally has because if they both don't for features that cross between them or for syncing issues or whatever
0:26:44It's much worse than just having a phone or just having a computer and the second thing is as you get even more devices
0:26:50The number of connections between them possible interaction it goes way up. It goes up faster than linearly
0:26:55Especially if they all interact with each other
0:26:57Especially if some features on one aren't even unlocked until you get the second one like continuity is not even in your world unless you
0:27:03Have two devices
0:27:03So there's a whole new feature set that wasn't even there before that blooms on both of them
0:27:07and then you have the interaction between them and then three of them and in the cloud and everything like that
0:27:10That's more or less what we were getting at if you want to get into the nitty-gritty details of the math
0:27:14Dr. Drang has a good coverage there and the person who sent us an email
0:27:17said that even though things do get worse when you add something to a system if
0:27:21Most if most things are generally reliable like if the reliability is you know, 99% or whatever
0:27:27It doesn't get that bad the effect is maybe we're exaggerating the effect because it's not like we use an example like 50% reliability
0:27:34Yes, that would that you'd really feel it most things are very very reliable
0:27:37Adding another one to the system of the same reliability is not gonna pull down your overall reliability that much
0:27:42so that's why I think Kieran's post about the
0:27:45Number of possible interactions between the different devices going up is the real thrust of what we were getting at
0:27:51You with a smart girl and we still don't we still don't know the math
0:27:55We stubbornly refuse to address or learn any of the math. This will not be on the test people believe John
0:28:02Yeah, no, but that's what I wasn't strongly advocating for any specific thing. I was we were both saying stay away from the math
0:28:09We both don't know it look it up if you care
0:28:11Look it up if you care should be the motto of our feedback
0:28:15No, it's like, you know, we're neither one of us off the top of her head was going to say this is definitively
0:28:22How you calculate this or whatever? We both just hand waved it and ran away from it and we still got yelled at
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0:30:45There's been a rumor that the iPad Pro
0:30:51Might which we don't even know exists might come with a stylus which is something different. So what are we gonna do?
0:30:58Oh a stylus, right? We're gonna use a stylus
0:31:02No
0:31:04Who wants a stylus
0:31:07You have to get them and put them away and you lose them. Yeah
0:31:10Nobody wants a stylus. So let's not use a stylus
0:31:14Yeah, if you see a stylus then what is it? They've already failed if you need a stylus, you've already failed the point is
0:31:21One of the more reliable supply chain,
0:31:26I guess analysts I say,
0:31:29because I don't know, I hate that term,
0:31:31but anyway, has said that the next iPad,
0:31:35or the 13-inch iPad will have an optional stylus.
0:31:38And I don't think that most of us
0:31:41would have paid too much attention to this,
0:31:43or certainly I wouldn't have,
0:31:44except that this particular individual
0:31:46has an unbelievably good track record,
0:31:48which makes me think, okay, maybe this is real.
0:31:51So I can't, I don't own any styli, styluses for my iPad.
0:31:56I've never gotten any.
0:31:58I've never really had a particular need for them.
0:32:00I've tried the, what is it, the paper pencil?
0:32:03- Yep, I got one of those too.
0:32:05It sits in a drawer.
0:32:06- It seemed cool, I guess,
0:32:07but I'm just not one that needs a stylus.
0:32:11So I don't think I can really comment intelligently on this.
0:32:15It sounds like Marco, you have a bunch,
0:32:17'cause you've spoken fondly of the cosmonaut
0:32:19in the past, right?
0:32:20- Yeah, and of all the ones I have,
0:32:21that's my favorite one for general usage.
0:32:23The, if you use paper a lot, like the app Paper by 53,
0:32:28if you use that app a lot for artistic purposes
0:32:31and sketching purposes, their stylus offers some features
0:32:34in that app that other ones won't have, the paper pencil.
0:32:39For general use around the rest of the iPad,
0:32:40I don't think the pencil is better than the Cosmo,
0:32:42I think it's about the same, if not a little bit worse,
0:32:44'cause it has a little bit of a weird shape.
0:32:47The thing is, the reason why it's a big deal
0:32:50if Apple makes one of these
0:32:51is because if Apple makes a stylus,
0:32:53it's not going to be a $25 capacitive foam tip stick
0:32:58the way all the other ones are.
0:33:01It's going to be integrated with the OS
0:33:03and with the hardware.
0:33:05So right now, the reason why the styli on the market
0:33:09generally all suck or that they've basically hit a wall
0:33:13that they can't get any better than this
0:33:15is because to get better than that,
0:33:17you need system-wide recognition of Bluetooth
0:33:22and more precision on the tip.
0:33:25And so certainly, like the Paper by 53 stylus,
0:33:28I think that is, I'm pretty sure it is Bluetooth,
0:33:30it's some kind of, yeah, it must be.
0:33:31So that is Bluetooth, but it only works in their app.
0:33:35And it's still not as good as it can be
0:33:37because you need, 'cause like,
0:33:39the app has to try to do things like reject
0:33:42palm, the side of your palm touching the screen
0:33:44and not count that as a touch and things like that.
0:33:46And the low level OS frameworks for touch recognition
0:33:51have way more recognition and way more data to work with
0:33:55than what's exposed to apps in the public APIs.
0:33:58And so if Apple did this at the system level,
0:34:00they can not only use Bluetooth
0:34:02or some other kind of short range RF thing,
0:34:04probably be Bluetooth, but they can not only use Bluetooth,
0:34:07but they could do it system-wide
0:34:09so it would work in every app
0:34:11with all the sensitivity and precision
0:34:14and it would be able to tie in with the touch recognition
0:34:17and do like, you know, better touch rejection
0:34:20and things like that.
0:34:21None of which third party styluses can do really very well
0:34:24or everywhere right now.
0:34:26So that's why it's a big deal if Apple makes one.
0:34:29They might even, if this is gonna be a big deal,
0:34:32they might even switch to the different kind of touch screen
0:34:36and I believe it's a resistive touch screen
0:34:38or at least be able to put in a layer like that,
0:34:40like what the Wacom Cintiqs use.
0:34:43which is what the Microsoft Surface Pro,
0:34:46at least the two and the three,
0:34:47I don't know if the original one did, I think it did,
0:34:49but the Surface Pro uses this too,
0:34:50where it's basically, it's like a pen tablet
0:34:53integrated into the screen.
0:34:55And artists love these things.
0:34:57They are, you know, if you're a sketch artist
0:35:02or an illustration artist that would use a pen
0:35:04for your art form, these things are very,
0:35:07very widely recognized, very, very widely appreciated.
0:35:10And the iPad really doesn't do a very good job at that
0:35:13because of the imprecisions and limitations
0:35:15of the styluses that are available now.
0:35:17So I think if they did this,
0:35:20and I think they probably should do this,
0:35:22I think there's a market for it.
0:35:25It would make sense to limit it to only one model
0:35:27and to make it like a high-end thing,
0:35:29that would make sense.
0:35:30Just like Microsoft has done, really.
0:35:32And just like Wacom has done.
0:35:34I don't know, by the way, I know I'm pronouncing that wrong.
0:35:37I don't know what the,
0:35:38I usually even say whack 'em because it's more fun to me,
0:35:41just like the F'n key.
0:35:42(laughs)
0:35:43So anyway, I think it's a very good idea.
0:35:45Well, I don't know if they'll actually do it,
0:35:47but I think it's a very good idea.
0:35:49- I think it's inevitable because, I mean,
0:35:50for the same reason I think the bigger iPad is inevitable
0:35:53and multitasking and multi-windowing on the iPad
0:35:55is inevitable, like, that this platform has to expand
0:35:58to do more things because it's,
0:36:00because people like it better than the old platform.
0:36:02And you have to make it expand slowly
0:36:05and make it not lose as much of the advantages
0:36:07diversify the line so a particular product does it and but like it has to happen because I mean the
0:36:12amazing number of
0:36:14Artificial fingers for sale for iOS devices just goes to show that there is a market demand for this in the same way that people
0:36:20Wanted bigger phones, right? And that's why you know, you said like but that's that's why although they the
0:36:25existing ones stink because all they are is artificial fingers like all you are is simulating a finger and the OS is made for fingers and
0:36:34simulated fingers or real fingers or whatever. It's just a bunch of fingers and they're big squishy things. They're imprecise or whatever
0:36:38If Apple comes out with a stylus, not only does it have to deal with Bluetooth, but I think they have to do
0:36:43something different with the screen like you said and if you look at
0:36:46the you know huge number of patents that come out of Apple. Apple patents million things doesn't mean they're gonna make anything but I
0:36:52think in the case of the stylus even if we didn't see any patents
0:36:55I would think that a stylus is going to eventually come when we get to that point and
0:36:58Apple has tons of patents related to styluses or styli or whatever
0:37:02I wish we knew what the plural of that was
0:37:03'cause this is gonna be awkward
0:37:04for the whole time we talk about this.
0:37:06We should put that in a follow-up for next week.
0:37:08- Please, if you took Latin in high school, don't write in.
0:37:11- Yeah, I don't- - We don't care.
0:37:12- Mouses, mice, anyway.
0:37:14- I also took Latin in high school.
0:37:15- Why would they have all those patents?
0:37:16Usually their patents are about like,
0:37:18well, you user interface stuff.
0:37:19Like maybe they tried this user interface
0:37:21and it wasn't great so they didn't ship it,
0:37:22but they're gonna patent everything.
0:37:23You patent anything you do.
0:37:25But the number of stylists related patents
0:37:28that have come out of Apple over the years
0:37:29shows that they've had people doing stuff
0:37:32related to styluses or styli or whatever for so long
0:37:35that like, why are those guys still doing that?
0:37:38It's not like they just try this experiment once,
0:37:40like just year after year after year,
0:37:42people are in the lab with these little sticks doing stuff.
0:37:44And maybe they hate all those,
0:37:46maybe everything they patented
0:37:47is something they're not going to make.
0:37:48But someone is being employed at Apple
0:37:51to do stuff that produces things that are patentable
0:37:53related to drawing with a stick on a screen.
0:37:56So it seems to me that that is definitely something
0:38:01that they're working on, not just once, but over the years,
0:38:04and they're eventually gonna get something they like,
0:38:06maybe not this year, maybe not next year,
0:38:08but I think it's inevitable.
0:38:10And if they don't, if they don't hurry up,
0:38:12like Surface getting the cache with the artists,
0:38:14because finally it was a portable tablet type thing
0:38:17that had the hardware support
0:38:19for a decent stylus interface,
0:38:22if Apple doesn't do it soon enough,
0:38:23eventually it's gonna be like,
0:38:24well, every artist knows that if you wanna do art
0:38:27on the road, you have to get a Microsoft Surface
0:38:29because you're not gonna use a big plastic finger
0:38:31to scribble on an iPad, right?
0:38:34So I would say now is the correct time
0:38:35for them to do something.
0:38:36I hope they do something that is at least as good
0:38:39as what the Surface does.
0:38:40And I'm really hoping that at least one or two
0:38:42of those weird patents are something we haven't seen before
0:38:44because patents take a long time to come out.
0:38:46Something we haven't even seen that's patent pending
0:38:48will provide an interface that's even better.
0:38:53Now, the kind of the scary ghost floating around this
0:38:56has nothing to do with drawing pretty pictures on your iPad.
0:38:59and has everything to do with the other thing
0:39:01that you might do with a pen or a pencil
0:39:03or writing implement on a flat surface,
0:39:05which is write letters.
0:39:08And that's, you know, as in characters, as in AB.
0:39:10And Apple has big, scary egg freckles all over this topic.
0:39:15But the thing is, once you make a stylus
0:39:20and you're able to, you know,
0:39:21do fine art with it or whatever,
0:39:23are you gonna say, no, you can't write notes
0:39:28that will translate into text.
0:39:29I mean, that's one way to get out of it,
0:39:30just to avoid it entirely.
0:39:31It's just for drawing.
0:39:32No, you can write words, but it'll just stay,
0:39:35like we won't translate it into text.
0:39:36But boy, I think there's no way for them to avoid
0:39:40having to resurrect and finally defeat
0:39:43the ghosts of the Newton by doing handwriting recognition
0:39:46that is not embarrassing.
0:39:47And I think the technology is there to do it.
0:39:49And I think they more or less have to support it system-wide
0:39:52in a nice way.
0:39:53And I think very few people will use it
0:39:55because who likes writing with a pen and pencil?
0:39:57everyone who likes writing will send us email,
0:39:59which is fine, but I really feel like--
0:40:02- I mean, I don't like it that much either,
0:40:03but that's a pretty big group that does.
0:40:06- Is that, here's the thing.
0:40:10In what context are you going to use it?
0:40:13I can imagine using it for things like checking things off
0:40:18or scribbling a quick little note
0:40:20without bringing up the keyboard to tap things out,
0:40:22but I can't imagine someone using it to do text messages
0:40:26or write a long email or something.
0:40:27And maybe that's just me.
0:40:28Maybe I just don't see that anymore.
0:40:30But like, if you're gonna write along,
0:40:32unless it does cursive,
0:40:34because people are really fast with cursive,
0:40:35'cause those are the type of people
0:40:36who like to write handwriting,
0:40:37unless they tackle cursive, which I think--
0:40:39- Those people are jerks.
0:40:40(laughing)
0:40:41- To just do a long handwritten letter in cursive
0:40:44and have it translate that into text for you.
0:40:46But having really good stylist support in this day and age,
0:40:51you can let them write it in cursive
0:40:53and just send it as a giant image.
0:40:55Like you can do that now.
0:40:56That wasn't an option before,
0:40:58you had to translate it to text.
0:40:59I think now this beautiful handwriting,
0:41:02you know, that people have,
0:41:03or, you know, they want to convey their,
0:41:05that you want to see someone's handwriting,
0:41:07why not just transfer it as, you know,
0:41:08a vector or a bitmap or something like that?
0:41:10Why do you have to turn it into text?
0:41:11I guess you have to turn it into text
0:41:12to make it searchable and so on and so forth.
0:41:14And I don't know.
0:41:16There's lots of different ways
0:41:17where they can go with this,
0:41:17but I think the art angle is a slam dunk.
0:41:20They're gonna do it.
0:41:21It's gonna be good, I hope.
0:41:22If it doesn't happen this year,
0:41:24they better hurry up because everyone else is doing it.
0:41:26And then the handwriting thing,
0:41:28I have no idea what they're gonna do
0:41:29and I see all sorts of crazy pitfalls there.
0:41:31- I think the opportunity is big.
0:41:34I would be surprised if anybody at Apple
0:41:37with the ability to make such a decision
0:41:40would restrict or stay away from these areas
0:41:43because of the Newton.
0:41:44I think they just don't care anymore.
0:41:46That was so long, that was ancient history
0:41:48and most of the public doesn't even remember the Newton
0:41:51and doesn't even care about it.
0:41:52- Not stay away from it because of the Newton,
0:41:54but because it's still a hard problem.
0:41:56Like look at how, like the Surface does it now.
0:41:58Microsoft does it and they do it obviously better
0:42:00than the Newton, right?
0:42:01You got way more computing power.
0:42:02- And they've been doing it for like a decade.
0:42:04Microsoft's been doing it for a long time.
0:42:06And their version is pretty good.
0:42:08- It's good, but it's like, here's the thing.
0:42:12People don't need to remember where the Newton is.
0:42:13It's just like, it's a hard enough problem.
0:42:15Kind of like a lot of the stuff,
0:42:16and unfortunately we're not gonna talk about this this week
0:42:18'cause I don't think you're gonna have time to watch it,
0:42:20but you know, the Windows 10 announcement
0:42:21and the holographic stuff, or in the past,
0:42:24the Kinect or whatever, things that are--
0:42:25- That was real?
0:42:27- Things that are really hard problems
0:42:29that make a really awesome tech demo
0:42:31that make you feel like you're living in the future,
0:42:33but if they don't deliver on it,
0:42:34like if they don't cross the threshold,
0:42:37kind of like how Siri didn't cross the threshold
0:42:39in the beginning of like, well, a demo is well,
0:42:41but if it doesn't quite work for you enough of the time,
0:42:43you just kind of give up on it.
0:42:44And that came up again because Daniel Jaka
0:42:46was talking about how Siri has gotten much better,
0:42:48and that went around the sort of Apple nerd sites
0:42:52this past week or so.
0:42:53- Oh, by the way, about that,
0:42:55So I, sorry, I interrupt for a second.
0:42:58So I have not used Siri in a long time
0:43:01because it just never works for me.
0:43:02Like the reliability was so bad for so long,
0:43:04I just stopped trying.
0:43:05'Cause I would say a complete command,
0:43:07it would sit there and spin for 20 seconds
0:43:09and then say, "I'm sorry, I can't help you right now.
0:43:11"There's been an error."
0:43:13So I stopped trying.
0:43:14After seeing all these things about Siri,
0:43:16I'm like, "All right, maybe I'll give it another shot."
0:43:17First thing I try yesterday, Siri, start the stopwatch.
0:43:22Sorry, Marco, I can't help you with the stopwatch.
0:43:26- It can do everything else in the clock app.
0:43:27It can't start the stopwatch.
0:43:29- Yep.
0:43:30- Like really, come on, this is easy stuff.
0:43:32Why, why?
0:43:34- Oh, but at least it worked, you know,
0:43:36understood what you said and gave you a reasonable answer.
0:43:39But it's similar in that like Siri is kind of bad
0:43:43or any kind of voice recognition thing.
0:43:44You just let a kid use it and you'll see it
0:43:47because like as soon as you start talking to it
0:43:49and it talks back to you, people are like,
0:43:50oh, well, I guess this is a complete human
0:43:52and if it doesn't do exactly what I say,
0:43:53I consider it stupid, right?
0:43:56And handwriting recognition is similar.
0:43:58As soon as it changes anything you write into text,
0:44:00you're like, "Oh, it understands handwriting."
0:44:02And then you write something else and it doesn't,
0:44:04you're like, "This thing is stupid."
0:44:05Because your only analog for something
0:44:08that understands spoken text
0:44:09and can read handwriting is other humans.
0:44:11And it's like, "Well, if you can read this word
0:44:13"on the shopping list, why couldn't you read this one?"
0:44:15There's no, you know, to a human being,
0:44:18if you can read one of those words, you can read both.
0:44:19Like, one is not incredibly sloppier than the other.
0:44:23But to a computer, which is not like a human,
0:44:24and not even close, you know,
0:44:26it's not even at the level of like a kindergarten student
0:44:28in terms of recognizing letters,
0:44:30it just has a bunch of heuristics,
0:44:31as long as they get tripped up by things
0:44:32that make no sense to you,
0:44:33because you have no idea how it's recognizing things.
0:44:35You also have no idea how your own brain
0:44:37is recognizing things, but it just works in us, right?
0:44:39Our brains just work.
0:44:40That's the real, it just works, right?
0:44:42We can't be taught to read and write.
0:44:44It just works, right?
0:44:45For the most part, in most people.
0:44:47- I still can't read all these cursive cards
0:44:49get from old people. You got dyslexia and you've got people who are out of practice
0:44:53and you've got people with terrible handwriting. But handwriting recognition is a promise that
0:44:57if you don't pass a certain bar, it's like... That's why I think the bitmap thing is a way
0:45:02out because maybe you try to do handwriting recognition. Even if you do it better than
0:45:06Microsoft, I still think that's below the minimum that will be acceptable by the general
0:45:10public where people will say, "Oh, it understands your handwriting." What they'll say instead
0:45:13is, "Sometimes it kind of understands your handwriting," which is not a ringing endorsement.
0:45:19But if you can use it to send bitmaps of your writing, then your only problem is the person
0:45:23at the other end can read your writing.
0:45:24And we've all had that where a spouse writes a shopping list for you and you can't make
0:45:29out whatever the last word is and you're not sure if it's like carrots or cucumbers or
0:45:33something with a C and then a bunch of squiggles.
0:45:35So if humans can't do it sometimes, I don't know.
0:45:40I think that is a difficult thing.
0:45:43And really, we're mostly talking about tablets here.
0:45:46I can't imagine someone doing it on the phone, but once you have it working on the tablet,
0:45:50do you put it in the 6 Plus?
0:45:52So a little place to put a stylus or something?
0:45:55Would you see, I mean, I know people see this now, someone with a, you know, the Galaxy
0:45:59Note or whatever, holding a big giant phone and stabbing at it with a little pencil thing.
0:46:04My own mother uses a little fake finger thing to stab at her iPod Touch.
0:46:09Some people just want to poke something with a stick.
0:46:11Have you seen that?
0:46:13(laughing)
0:46:14- Have you seen that?
0:46:15Have you seen people using a phone with a stylus?
0:46:17Obviously not an Apple phone.
0:46:18- Not a phone.
0:46:19I have, my father-in-law uses his iPad
0:46:21very often with the Cosmonaut.
0:46:23Like he just prefers to interact with it that way.
0:46:25It's just tapping UI buttons and everything.
0:46:27I totally get that.
0:46:29I don't know, I think the era of Apple sticking with
0:46:33a very small product line,
0:46:35I don't think they're really holding dearly to that.
0:46:37I mean, just look at the iPad lineup.
0:46:39Like you mentioned earlier about the new
0:46:4212 inch MacBook Air thing,
0:46:44possibly you need to replace the 11 and 13 Air.
0:46:47And even that, not anytime soon, maybe not ever,
0:46:51because they are fine having a bigger lineup.
0:46:54I think the Tim Cook era,
0:46:57and this didn't start with Tim, it started with Steve,
0:46:59but certainly I think the Tim Cook era has expanded this
0:47:02of Apple is fine keeping old products around
0:47:06and having more versions of new products now
0:47:09to address markets that they weren't serving before
0:47:11that were possibly a threat to them.
0:47:13- I think they're sticking to the,
0:47:15we remember the old quadrant thing
0:47:17with like pro consumer laptop, desktop,
0:47:18that was a simpler time, right?
0:47:19There was no watches, no phones, the tablets, whatever.
0:47:21But within their product setup, it's not crazy.
0:47:25Like they have a laptop line
0:47:27that they have more or less simplified
0:47:29by trying to MacBook Pro and MacBook versus the Air
0:47:33and getting rid of the non-pro MacBooks
0:47:35and everything or whatever.
0:47:36They have tablets, they have phones,
0:47:38they have laptops in a couple of varieties,
0:47:39they have desktop in a couple of varieties.
0:47:41What they're doing is within those sort of nameplates
0:47:44and brands, diversifying like how many different iPads
0:47:47are there, but the simplification thing is like,
0:47:49it's just an iPad.
0:47:50You don't have to know like, do I want an iPad
0:47:53or another tablet product?
0:47:54They're all iPads like perception wise
0:47:56and all it is is just like buying different sides
0:47:58of clothing or you know, whatever.
0:48:00It's like, it's as if a car manufacturer had one kind
0:48:04of car and you could get that car in SUV, wagon, you know,
0:48:08tricycle, motorcycle, but they called it all the same,
0:48:11you know, line of things, you know what I mean?
0:48:12Maybe it's not quite that big, but like--
0:48:14- Actually, that's not that far from what BMW actually does.
0:48:17- It's true, but like, so, but in Apple's world,
0:48:20the 3 and the 5 series would not be different cars, right?
0:48:23And maybe you'd have like the electric one
0:48:25would be a different line.
0:48:25Like, I think the iPad is the best example,
0:48:27'cause these are all iPads, and it's like,
0:48:30well, they're all rectangles of screen,
0:48:31but like, huge diversity of different guts,
0:48:34different Xs, outsides, different form factors,
0:48:36and the phone has slowly been diverse.
0:48:37And they're all iPhones, it's just one variety of iPhones,
0:48:40there's a range there as well.
0:48:42The iPod touches off in the corner, whatever.
0:48:43So with the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro,
0:48:46maybe there's still a little division there,
0:48:48but they're kind of unified in a MacBook.
0:48:50So I think Apple's appetite for taking existing product
0:48:54lines and just making more varieties is demonstrated,
0:48:58but their appetite for splitting, say,
0:49:03the MacBook line further splitting into MacBook,
0:49:06MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, MacBook, whatever,
0:49:08I think they, instead they're going the other direction.
0:49:10You know, making everything,
0:49:11getting rid of the plastic models,
0:49:13making it all aluminum,
0:49:14getting rid of the non-pro MacBooks,
0:49:16and you know, who knows how long the air,
0:49:18if this new one is called MacBook Stealth
0:49:19and the air is going away or something, I don't know.
0:49:22That kind of diversification is like
0:49:24having your cake and eating it too,
0:49:26because you address more of the customer base
0:49:28while still making it seem like
0:49:30you only need to have two or three tables in an Apple store
0:49:33and you can put all your products on them.
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0:52:18- So CES has already ended by like a week or two,
0:52:22is that right?
0:52:23- It's always hard to tell with CES,
0:52:25like if it's a real thing, if anything matters.
0:52:28I wonder if we can just paste in the Verge's summary of CES
0:52:33from last year and just paste it in this year.
0:52:36Would anybody notice?
0:52:37- Anyone who isn't John would have no idea
0:52:41that it was the same thing regurgitated,
0:52:44but John would notice and John has noticed.
0:52:46- Well, the first thing I have in here related to this
0:52:48is the Wirecutter did what they do,
0:52:50which is like they distilled it down to the things
0:52:52they thought were actually interesting
0:52:53and important out of CES.
0:52:55And CES, it actually is an important show
0:52:57if you care about consumer electronics.
0:53:00But there is so much there that it's like,
0:53:02what is the important thing this year?
0:53:04And so for me, I'm interested in televisions every year
0:53:07at CES, it's like, what do the new crop of televisions
0:53:11look like because people tend to announce
0:53:13their upcoming things that are,
0:53:15they have new technologies, is this the first year,
0:53:17you know, the first year an LCD TV is available,
0:53:19the first year an HDTV is available, you know?
0:53:21And those are the exciting years
0:53:23where there's some kind of technological advance.
0:53:25And then there are all the in-between years
0:53:26where you're like, okay, what is this current year's crop
0:53:28of plasma TVs like?
0:53:30Are they better than last year's problem?
0:53:31You know, so on and so forth.
0:53:32Those are more boring.
0:53:33That's just picking televisions as one category.
0:53:34But for every category, there's something like that.
0:53:36And then there's just tons and tons of noise.
0:53:40So the wire cutter thing gives a good summary.
0:53:42Out of the wire cutter summary of interesting gadgets
0:53:45and stuff from CES, I'm really, really interested
0:53:48in the TV part.
0:53:49So that's the only part I've highlighted here,
0:53:50but we'll put the link in the show notes
0:53:51and you can check it out.
0:53:52Because you can't, if you try to follow like CES coverage,
0:53:54you can't.
0:53:55There's too much stuff and a lot of the times the things that are covered by sort of live
0:53:59from CES stuff are the things that demo well, but you're never going to see them again.
0:54:03It's not a real product.
0:54:04It's not a real thing, but the booth and the demo is impressive and then just forget that
0:54:08it exists because you'll never see anything about it again.
0:54:10But the technology stuff, which is like more of the boring written stories that does not
0:54:14have anything fun to look at, it's just announcements of products.
0:54:20This is just, I mean we talked about it last year on the television front.
0:54:234K television and the technologies related to that are slowly, steadily marching forward.
0:54:294K we don't probably care too much about because of the size of the televisions we have and
0:54:33the distance we sit from them.
0:54:34It's probably not a factor, but as we discussed last year, 4K comes with more than just higher
0:54:39resolution.
0:54:40It also comes with a larger color gamut, different frame rates, and all sorts of stuff like that
0:54:44that people will notice.
0:54:45And then the one I was really interested in last year was this crazy "this is not really
0:54:48a product tech demo" type thing from Dolby, which was like high dynamic range to be able
0:54:53to have darker darks and brighter brights in your television and that is something much
0:54:58more so than 4K that you would notice if you put a regular TV next to one with this high
0:55:05dynamic range thing you would be able to tell the difference immediately in the same way
0:55:09that most people could with high definition television versus standard depth.
0:55:14And the exciting but boring announcement related to that is this UHD Alliance which is a consortium
0:55:21of a bunch of people who make hardware and a bunch of people who make content to try
0:55:24to get together on these standards because you don't want this to turn into a weird format
0:55:28war or whatever.
0:55:29If any of these things, if any of this sort of enhanced 4K with high dynamic range, if
0:55:33that's ever going to become a thing, it can't be confined to one vendor, it can't be confined
0:55:37to one distributor.
0:55:39And I think now it's good to see that the companies at least understand this a little
0:55:42bit.
0:55:43Various times they've been good and bad about this, like getting together on, you know,
0:55:46making a decision on Blu-ray finally after having the HD DVD thing or, you know, I think
0:55:51CDs they kind of came together a little bit.
0:55:53It's always an argument over who owns the patents and who's going to get the money and
0:55:55all that crap.
0:55:56But nobody benefits if it's like, if it's competing standards or if it's just available.
0:56:01Because if Just Sony had like this High Dynamic Range thing, right?
0:56:04If it was exclusively licensed through them and Just Sony movies were out like that.
0:56:08Nobody cares.
0:56:09Like who would ever get that TV?
0:56:10You're like, well that's great but you only watch Sony movies.
0:56:12No one knows what a Sony movie is.
0:56:13It has to be an industry standard.
0:56:15So I'm glad to see them doing this because I'm much more excited about the High Dynamic
0:56:19range stuff and the color enhanced and frame rate enhancements of 4K TV than I am about
0:56:24the 4K resolution itself.
0:56:27So I'm hoping good things will come from the UHD alliance and it won't splinter apart into
0:56:31a bunch of petty squabbling and other crap.
0:56:36And then the final thing is like, speaking of things that are sort of evergreen about
0:56:39CES, like you mentioned, we just reposted the Verge story.
0:56:42Every time I think about actually writing something about CES, which I actually do think
0:56:45about, I don't actually write anything but I think about it.
0:56:47And then I think back to the post I wrote in 2013 on hypercritical.co which is "CES
0:56:54colon worst products through software."
0:56:56And I don't want this to be an evergreen article.
0:56:59I want it to be, remember that moment in time when consumer electronics companies realized
0:57:04that they needed software in their products and they were super bad at it and every time
0:57:08they added software it made their products worse.
0:57:10And I'm hoping this will be a time that passes.
0:57:14will be a decade or something but I want this article to be out of date and look antiquated
0:57:21and look old-fashioned but this year I think it still applies.
0:57:25Every consumer electronics product that is not made by a company with a computing platform
0:57:31- Google, Apple, Microsoft, maybe kind of even Amazon - those are pretty much the only
0:57:36companies like companies that maintain, that have a software platform and that they maintain
0:57:42and advance it, they're the only companies that can do software worth a damn.
0:57:48Every other company that tries to add software to their product, it just makes the product
0:57:51worse because the software is awful and it replaces something that wasn't quite as awful
0:57:55and the new capabilities never make up for the difficulty of dealing with it.
0:57:58Like if your refrigerator comes with software, it's going to be worse than your refrigerator
0:58:01without software, like guaranteed because, you know, refrigerator makers have no idea
0:58:05what they're doing when it comes to software.
0:58:07Thus far neither do TV makers,
0:58:10the terrible bug updates, the terrible bug fixes,
0:58:12and the product itself, it doesn't start off very good
0:58:15and doesn't get any better.
0:58:16So I'm not writing anything new about that,
0:58:19it's still true, I wish it wasn't.
0:58:22Let's see, yes, worst products through software.
0:58:24- I'm not in the TV world,
0:58:27but I totally agree with that statement in other areas.
0:58:30I mean, things I've gotten off of Kickstarter
0:58:32that have like, oh, this is an oven thermometer
0:58:34that has an app on your phone to see the results.
0:58:37And it's like, ugh.
0:58:38And I threw it away and bought a real oven thermometer
0:58:40with an actual display and this stupid thing.
0:58:43You know, like the microphone interface I got for a week
0:58:46and then returned 'cause it was broken anyway.
0:58:48But like this thing that has this screen
0:58:50with just one button on it
0:58:52and everything else is controlled by software.
0:58:54And then of course the software is terrible.
0:58:56So I get this, I replace it with this box
0:58:58that is covered in knobs and buttons and it's way better
0:59:01and it will last way longer.
0:59:02I mean, just, ugh.
0:59:04I hate software so much and I'm a software developer
0:59:07and I hate software.
0:59:08I mean, it's, use software intelligently.
0:59:11Use software when it really does benefit things,
0:59:14but that is not everywhere,
0:59:16and that is not always necessary,
0:59:18and it is often better without it.
0:59:19- And the worst part is like,
0:59:20even in the places where you could totally see the benefit,
0:59:23like, there are things that have had,
0:59:25sort of, you know, visual interfaces for a long time,
0:59:28like, for example, thermostats or something,
0:59:30you're like, that's a perfect place for software,
0:59:31because having a bunch of little buttons
0:59:34under a panel that you open up,
0:59:35on this little dinky screen,
0:59:36you're like, boy, if I could have real software to do this,
0:59:39that would be better.
0:59:40And the Nest approach is kind of tied up with,
0:59:42also don't make it programmable or whatever,
0:59:43but so many opportunities exist for something
0:59:46that where software really is appropriate,
0:59:49but awful software is worse than just give me
0:59:52a bunch of fricking buttons and a dial, right?
0:59:54And what you were talking about,
0:59:55like on the thermometer type thing is like,
0:59:57this is actually not an appropriate place
0:59:58for software at this point.
0:59:59Just give me a mechanical device that works.
1:00:01And the cars are the best example,
1:00:03because like there are ample opportunities
1:00:04for good software to improve the experience inside a car.
1:00:08But they take the software and put it where it's not needed.
1:00:10And then the software that is there
1:00:12is usually pretty terrible.
1:00:13And we all use cars.
1:00:15And so we're all just kind of suffering
1:00:16as companies that do not know how to make software,
1:00:20I guess, hopefully slowly learn to make software better.
1:00:23I don't know if they're even learning.
1:00:25I mean, like you just talked about the BMW key fob
1:00:28with a screen on it.
1:00:29That is not an appropriate place for software.
1:00:32Something that's in your pocket that you wanna feel
1:00:34to be able to feel the buttons,
1:00:35or maybe you don't wanna touch it at all.
1:00:38(sighs)
1:00:39Yeah.
1:00:39- All right, and speaking of software,
1:00:43our friends at Rogue Amoeba released something new this week.
1:00:47- Audio Hijack 3.
1:00:48- Indeed.
1:00:49- It's not Pro though, so forget it.
1:00:51(laughing)
1:00:53- Well, that just means it doesn't have Thunderbolt ports
1:00:54on it anymore.
1:00:55- Yeah, exactly.
1:00:56- People don't get the joke.
1:00:57It used to be called Auto Hijack Pro,
1:00:59and with the version 3, they removed Pro from the name,
1:01:02because it was just like, you know,
1:01:04it's like Netscape Navigator gold, pro gold.
1:01:08Yeah, we don't need the,
1:01:10we don't need the suffixes and the modifiers.
1:01:12We can just say audio hijacked and it's version three.
1:01:15- Yep, and I have been fiddling with it.
1:01:18I have not used it to record a podcast yet.
1:01:21I didn't have enough time today to get my,
1:01:24I don't know, I guess workflow almost,
1:01:27a session I think is what they, the term they use.
1:01:29I didn't have enough time to get my session squared away
1:01:32before we recorded tonight, but I'm hoping to,
1:01:35in the next week, be able to set it up so that it records
1:01:39not only a copy of just my mic, but also a copy of you guys
1:01:42as well.
1:01:43And this will be super helpful for analog.
1:01:46But it's really, really slick the way
1:01:48they've done the kind of workflow-y interface
1:01:51where you're dragging boxes around.
1:01:53And it's, again, a very gentle way
1:01:58of trying to do very powerful things,
1:02:00much like the workflow app that I've talked about
1:02:02quite a few times, both on my website and here on the show.
1:02:05That's a very cool, very cool idea, very well done.
1:02:08And the thought of writing that UI scares the crap out of me
1:02:13'cause I'm a terrible UI developer as it is.
1:02:15And writing something that complex
1:02:18with like that kind of a dynamic layout
1:02:20just scares the bejesus out of me, but it's cool.
1:02:22- I wouldn't just describe it as gentle.
1:02:24And by the way, this is not a paid sponsorship.
1:02:26We're saying this because we think this app is needed.
1:02:28And the reason I'm excited about this app
1:02:29is because it takes an idea, concepts that have been,
1:02:34that have been related to audio for a long time.
1:02:37And it's like these capabilities,
1:02:39a lot of these capabilities more or less existed already
1:02:41in the previous versions of Audio Hijack
1:02:43or you could have done yourselves
1:02:44with the different audio things.
1:02:46The major innovation of this is kind of like,
1:02:48people are familiar with Quartz Composer,
1:02:50is it lets you visually design the flow of audio.
1:02:54Like if you were to,
1:02:56If you were to try to explain to somebody,
1:02:57what I need is I need to have the audio from this source
1:02:59going into over here,
1:03:00and I need to record into a file over there,
1:03:02but then be mixed with this one over here
1:03:03and have a volume adjustment
1:03:04and go through this output device,
1:03:05and you would draw it in an app and you're like,
1:03:06"Boy, how the hell am I gonna configure that in an app?"
1:03:09You just take that diagram and you make it in this thing.
1:03:13They have these little blocks that you can pull out
1:03:14for sources of audio.
1:03:16They have a little meter block, which I think is genius
1:03:18and shows the greatness of this approach.
1:03:20It's like, what does the meter block do?
1:03:21Doesn't do anything.
1:03:22It lets you know if you're clipping in that source, right?
1:03:25and then you have adjusters for different channels and volume things and you have a
1:03:28recorder where you can put the track down, you can put multiple tracks down into one
1:03:32recording, split them all into separate ones.
1:03:35The interface is the entire thing of this application.
1:03:37The capabilities were there and you could have used it with an old version of Audio
1:03:40Hijack or other applications but take a look at the screenshots of this.
1:03:43If you do anything related to audio, and maybe you don't, maybe it's just a bunch of podcasters
1:03:47who care about this stuff, but if you do anything related to audio or recording audio, this
1:03:51This one interface, this one window,
1:03:53like just drag a bunch of things
1:03:54and connect them with lines,
1:03:56lets anybody do things that previously
1:03:58almost nobody could do,
1:03:59because you'd have to understand
1:04:00some crazy arcane interface
1:04:02and a bunch of weird vocabulary.
1:04:04It's like, this is all visual vocabulary.
1:04:06Very simple, very straightforward.
1:04:07I was super impressed by this.
1:04:09- Yeah, it's a very neat app,
1:04:10and I'm hoping to get everything squared away
1:04:13so I can use it to record this next week.
1:04:16- We should have held out
1:04:17because they probably would have sponsored,
1:04:18and I could have done a good sponsor for them,
1:04:19but too late.
1:04:20(laughing)
1:04:21- Yeah, and Marco, you were on the beta for this,
1:04:24weren't you?
1:04:25- Yeah, I was, yeah, I like it a lot.
1:04:27What I like about it, I said it in this blog post too,
1:04:28like, in audio, like dealing with audio,
1:04:31and like, oh, I just need to record this
1:04:33and then run it through this mixer
1:04:35and combine it with this and then be able to mix this in
1:04:37and record over here and split this off
1:04:39and apply an EQ and a compressor over here,
1:04:42like, doing stuff like that can very quickly lead you
1:04:46into hardware complexity and just a hell
1:04:50of wires and cheap or expensive little boxes
1:04:53all over the place and lots of like just boxes
1:04:56all over your desk and complexity
1:04:58and not knowing where things are and costs.
1:05:02And this app is able to replace so much complexity,
1:05:06so much hardware, and even like if you try to do
1:05:09a lot of these things in software,
1:05:11there are like free open source things out there
1:05:14that you can do some of these things with
1:05:17or that you can combine in certain ways
1:05:20to do some of these things.
1:05:20And they're usually way harder to set up.
1:05:23And you gotta install these three different packages
1:05:25and one of them is really made for Linux
1:05:27and all this stuff.
1:05:28You hit all these little bottlenecks
1:05:29and frustrations and limitations
1:05:32and just challenges in setting it all up.
1:05:34So to have it all in one app is pretty amazing.
1:05:36This kinda makes me sad because
1:05:39this is the kind of awesome utility
1:05:41that we will never see on iOS
1:05:43and that can never be in the Mac App Store.
1:05:45And those things make me very sad.
1:05:47- A second point I was gonna bring up is
1:05:49The innovation of this app,
1:05:52this is exactly like the original GUI.
1:05:53It's like, previously I could not do this with a computer
1:05:56because it was too complicated.
1:05:57But now when you make all my files little pictures,
1:05:59now I can actually arrange them.
1:06:01I don't know how to type commands to move files.
1:06:03I can't keep, simple things like file management.
1:06:05Once you made the files little pictures
1:06:07that people could drag around with a mouse,
1:06:08suddenly they were able to do it.
1:06:09And for professionals who are gonna have
1:06:12actual audio hardware with the XLR interfaces
1:06:15or all that stuff, this is not replacing
1:06:17a giant recording studio for them.
1:06:18But it's saying like you have a Mac that is capable of doing a lot of stuff in
1:06:22Software that you can also do a better job of a more fancy job of with hardware
1:06:28But maybe you don't want to buy thousands of dollars for the audio hardware and that like Marco said that is a whole other world
1:06:33Of complexity what if you just want to do something like I have a Mac everything here is happening on the back
1:06:37I've got a Skype call. I've got you know a Google hangout. I've got some music playing. I've got like why can't I I?
1:06:45Know my Mac is capable of this it hears all the audio
1:06:47I can route it in a simple way using the input and output control panels
1:06:50Why can't I just do this one thing that want to do is not that much more complicated
1:06:54So I would say this is like when I tweeted about us
1:06:56I was like if you don't have a big budget for hardware
1:06:59but you want to do something like what Marco does with like playing some music and mixing it to a live stream and stuff like
1:07:04that like or you know on the incomparable where we just want to play clips from on our clip show play clips from past episodes or
1:07:11drop in sound effects and like a game show type thing. You're not asking for much
1:07:14It's pretty simple, but it's like oh I can add stuff in but it won't record my sound effects
1:07:19You just hear them over the Skype chat or the only place I can get my sound effects is out of the completely mixed Skype
1:07:23chat or I'll play this clip and the other people in the show won't hear it
1:07:26but eventually it'll be in the final recording silly things like that are limitations of the simplicity of the way we can mix audio here and
1:07:32Providing an application that does that it's just such an incredible shame like this is this is like the kind of
1:07:38Innovative application that you would expect from a great Mac developer, right?
1:07:41Can't be on the Mac App Store can't be on iOS because of the way it works because it you know
1:07:46Hijacks the audio from other applications and stuff like that and I understand like it doesn't have any kernel extensions or anything
1:07:51But it's using you know, it's getting into other
1:07:54Processes and like, you know grabbing audio from them and I feel like it's my computer
1:07:59I there should be security restrictions about that like oh, do you want to hijack audio from this application?
1:08:04You know confirm that it's done have some sort of system level thing that prevents like
1:08:08I feel like this application could be on the Mac App Store
1:08:12if Apple cared enough about the functionality it provides
1:08:14to provide sort of the gateways of like,
1:08:17oh, do you wanna give this app access to contacts?
1:08:20The person says yes, that app has access to contacts.
1:08:22That's the only kind of barrier I think you need.
1:08:24It just, it's kind of sad that you cannot buy this
1:08:28in the Mac App Store, you have to buy it direct.
1:08:30- All right, I think we're good.
1:08:32- Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,
1:08:35Harvest, Backblaze, and lynda.com,
1:08:38and we will see you next week.
1:08:40♪ Now the show is over ♪
1:08:45♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪
1:08:48♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
1:08:49♪ Accidental ♪
1:08:50♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪
1:08:52♪ Accidental ♪
1:08:53♪ John didn't do any research ♪
1:08:55♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪
1:08:58♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
1:09:00♪ Accidental ♪
1:09:01♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪
1:09:02♪ Accidental ♪
1:09:04And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm And if you're into Twitter, you can follow
1:09:11them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M
1:09:20Auntie Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A Siracusa
1:09:30♪ It's accidental, accidental ♪
1:09:33♪ They didn't mean to ♪
1:09:35♪ Accidental, accidental ♪
1:09:38♪ Tech podcast so long ♪
1:09:41- You can find out how much money Marco is saving from Go.
1:09:46- It isn't that impressive.
1:09:47It's like a few hundred dollars a month.
1:09:48I mean, it's, you know.
1:09:49- That's what we wanna know.
1:09:50- It's a few hundred dollars a month.
1:09:52- There you go.
1:09:53- It's not like, we're not talking thousands.
1:09:55'Cause hosting overcast was already inexpensive
1:09:58compared to like Instapaper or Tumblr or something like that.
1:10:01- You say like it's nothing.
1:10:02A few hundred dollars a month is not nothing.
1:10:05- I mean, that's a car payment.
1:10:06- Well, but in my last business,
1:10:07I was spending like five to $7,000 a month.
1:10:09So like for this one, like this is a lot smaller
1:10:11because it's like five to $700 a month
1:10:14as opposed to a thousand.
1:10:15- Yeah, it's a pretty good bang for the buck though.
1:10:17Like how long did you spend rewriting it in Go?
1:10:19And then the savings will be realized going forward.
1:10:24So you've got a pretty good return
1:10:27on the investment and the time you spent to learn Go
1:10:30and rewrite this thing.
1:10:31- Yeah, I mean, and ultimately,
1:10:33I'm gonna have to spend a little more time on it
1:10:34because the current model I have
1:10:35has a couple of little problems,
1:10:37but overall it's been a huge win
1:10:40and I learned a new language and that is valuable too.
1:10:42And now I have a very, very good tool
1:10:47for certain types of problems in my tool belt, I guess.
1:10:51I learned something new,
1:10:53give us something to talk about on the show here and there
1:10:55and let's be seeing some money.
1:10:57I mean, like John said, a few hundred dollars a month,
1:10:59that's significant, that's impressive,
1:11:01and that's really awesome.
1:11:02And it's kinda crazy that you just choosing
1:11:06to attack this problem a little bit differently
1:11:10has had what I think to be a pretty big, tangible impact
1:11:15on your financial situation for Overcast.
1:11:19That's awesome.
1:11:20And who would have thought that ditching PHP
1:11:24would save you hundreds on cards,
1:11:26I mean on server costs.
1:11:29- And just not even ditching all of it,
1:11:30just ditching it for like this one hotspot,
1:11:32this one major bottleneck that was a huge resource hog.
1:11:36And that's why I like that I now have this in my tool belt
1:11:40because now I know problems like this,
1:11:43I have another way to attack them.
1:11:45I have something else that I know well enough
1:11:47and that I trust enough to do this kind of thing
1:11:50that's now available to me.
1:11:52And that will enable certain new things.
1:11:55And I didn't wanna learn certain things
1:11:57like Python or Ruby that much
1:11:59because they didn't seem to provide enough of an advantage
1:12:03to make it worth me adding that complexity
1:12:06and having that burden of having to learn that
1:12:08over a few weeks and dumping all that time into it.
1:12:12Go is different enough and good enough at certain things
1:12:16that it was worth it to me and I'm glad I did it.
1:12:19- Yeah, the bad old Marco would have spent many more months
1:12:23arguing with everyone else about why you didn't need to rewrite so true like you would have just
1:12:29The amount of time and energy you would have spent defending your decision not to rewrite it and go
1:12:33Would dwarf very quickly dwarf the amount of time it actually took you to rewrite it and go. Oh, yeah
1:12:39No, this this is what happens when there's a lot of money to be made on one side of an argument
1:12:42Yeah, well, it's all speculative. You're like, oh, I don't think it'll be that much faster
1:12:46Maybe I could reduce the number of machines from one to two even now you're saying it's not that much money
1:12:50Although I think it totally is
1:12:51And then you know the whole the arguments you just made about having us in your tool bit and so on and so forth
1:12:55You know we could have made those arguments
1:12:57You know you have and you know it doesn't seem like a big deal. It's not a whatever that's all
1:13:02I hope you you've learned from this that like
1:13:04trying new things is awesome and saves you money and
1:13:07It's
1:13:10Lesson I usually take from that is like I get this work all the time
1:13:13I have to do the calculation of like how much energy will it be for me to argue against this for just how much energy?
1:13:18will it take for me to just do it?
1:13:20And a surprising amount of time, it's like,
1:13:23it's more exhausting for me to think about
1:13:24arguing against it than just to just do it.
1:13:27Like, it's actually less work, 'cause then you're like,
1:13:30whatever, it's done.
1:13:31When it's done, the argument is over,
1:13:33there's no argument to be had,
1:13:34and it was less mentally exhausting
1:13:36than having to try to argue about this.
1:13:39- Well, I mean, in my case, it was really just about like,
1:13:43you know, I'm not gonna take like a sideways step
1:13:46and learn a language that is generally similar to PHP
1:13:49and what it does well and what it doesn't do well,
1:13:51because there's not a whole lot of upside for that.
1:13:55- Well, we'll work on that one next.
1:13:57I know that's what you think.
1:13:59- But with Go, the reason I went to it
1:14:02was because I had this problem that I was doing
1:14:06that PHP is especially bad at.
1:14:09If it was just something that PHP is kind of
1:14:11inconvenient for or not that well designed for,
1:14:14that's less of a gain.
1:14:15That's more like, well, in an ideal world,
1:14:17on an infinite time scale thing,
1:14:19maybe I would do something else.
1:14:20But in most cases, most of the problems
1:14:24I have to solve with web apps,
1:14:26the other languages don't solve it better than PHP enough
1:14:30to make it worth the jump
1:14:31and the hassle of having to rewrite things.
1:14:33I mean, this is costing me,
1:14:34this is gonna cost me probably two months
1:14:36of web programming time,
1:14:37because I not only had to rewrite the crawlers
1:14:40and debug all the problems that came with them,
1:14:42but I also had to rewrite a lot of these supporting tools.
1:14:44things like the logging infrastructure
1:14:46and the things that allow me to check and see
1:14:50when feeds were last crawled,
1:14:52how often, monitoring if there's delays,
1:14:55if there's queue congestion,
1:14:56being able to force one to crawl immediately.
1:14:59There's all sorts of little infrastructure supporting pieces
1:15:02that tie into the crawling system
1:15:04that I now have to modify or rewrite
1:15:06because it's a different system.
1:15:08So it is a pretty expensive change up front.
1:15:12It will pay off over time,
1:15:13but it's certainly taking a lot of time.
1:15:15And so that's why I'm not gonna rewrite
1:15:17the whole rest of the app in Python or something,
1:15:18because there doesn't seem to be enough benefit
1:15:22to doing that for the amount of time and work it would take.
1:15:25If I'm faced with a problem that PHP does really badly,
1:15:29like lots of parallel network requests,
1:15:33now I'm not gonna use it for that.
1:15:36So that's where the benefit is.
1:15:38- When you sell Overcast, your next product,
1:15:40the parts that are appropriate for Go,
1:15:42you won't write in PHP to begin with
1:15:44and it'll be go from the beginning.
1:15:45And the same thing with your queue management stuff.
1:15:47Like if you ever, if we've ever crossed the next hurdle,
1:15:49which is like third-party products
1:15:51for dealing with queues of things and managing the queues
1:15:53and dealing with failures and reporting and logging.
1:15:56There are lots of infrastructure type tools
1:15:58that deal with that.
1:15:59I know you probably don't like anything
1:16:00when you're really just write the thing,
1:16:01straightforward thing yourself.
1:16:03But in the similar way that if you were to try
1:16:05to use one of those, you'd be like,
1:16:06oh, I have this infrastructure that already works.
1:16:07Now I have to do this thing.
1:16:08And now I have this weird system
1:16:09where some of them use this system, some of them use that.
1:16:10It's like, again, the next time you do a project,
1:16:12if you have that tool in your tool belt,
1:16:15then you will say, okay, this part of the system
1:16:17I'm gonna write in PHP, this part I'm gonna write in Go,
1:16:19this thing I'm gonna use, you know,
1:16:21this Q system and this whatever, like,
1:16:24we'll work on the third party stuff next.
1:16:25But like, I feel like having,
1:16:27this is one of the things that having a crappy job
1:16:29forces you to deal with,
1:16:31because if you have either one crappy job
1:16:32or even better, multiple crappy jobs,
1:16:35crappy meaning of just like regular J-O-B jobs
1:16:37where you work for somebody else,
1:16:38you don't get to pick half the time
1:16:39what you're working with,
1:16:41what database you're working with,
1:16:42what logging infrastructure you're working with,
1:16:44what operating system, what any, you know,
1:16:46it just, you don't get to pick, right?
1:16:48And a lot of times you work with crappy things,
1:16:50but eventually you work with a whole bunch
1:16:51of different things so that when you come to a new situation
1:16:53you're like, look, I've tried these five things
1:16:56and these seven things in this realm or whatever,
1:16:58and you have, you're forced to have experience
1:17:00with lots of different things,
1:17:01and so you have a deeper tool chest to pull from,
1:17:04whereas if you're not forced by some pointy haired boss
1:17:07to use a particular technology,
1:17:09it's always up to you to do the cost benefit
1:17:11and like, I'm the only person here,
1:17:13is it really worth me learning to do this on my own,
1:17:15so on and so forth.
1:17:16It's much harder to,
1:17:17you don't have the time to just screw around with stuff
1:17:21and try everything out and survey the landscape.
1:17:23You really just have to go with what you know.
1:17:26And so now you overcoming that hurdle to say,
1:17:29I am going to screw around for a little while
1:17:31just because I think there'll be a benefit from it.
1:17:33It's a sort of a slow motion version
1:17:35of having a series of crappy JOB jobs
1:17:37where you forced to use 50 different technologies.
1:17:40- It's so true.
1:17:40I also think it's kind of funny for you
1:17:42to just kind of wave your hand at,
1:17:44oh, it won't be any better than PHP.
1:17:46- Well, that's not what I said.
1:17:48I said it won't be better enough
1:17:50to make it worth the transition costs.
1:17:52- Okay, even then, I think that's a very bold claim
1:17:56for, not for Go necessarily, because you know Go,
1:18:00but to just kind of wave off, I don't know,
1:18:02Python as an example,
1:18:04and just assume that it's not going to be that beneficial.
1:18:08I think that's pretty bold.
1:18:09Now, it doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong.
1:18:12It just means that's pretty bold.
1:18:13And I am proud of you and remain proud of you
1:18:16for having explored GO.
1:18:17And I echo what Jon is saying that I think this is a baby
1:18:21step in the right direction for you understanding
1:18:23that you don't necessarily need to personally solve
1:18:25every problem under the sun.
1:18:27And there are more than one ways,
1:18:29there's more than one way to skin a cat and that's okay.
1:18:32The part where Marco's right about this thing, though,
1:18:34is like, it's not even Python versus PHP,
1:18:36it's that he found the hotspot, right?
1:18:38Like, you reduced your number of servers by like half,
1:18:40didn't you?
1:18:41So it doesn't matter how much better something is than PHP,
1:18:43this was clearly the hotspot.
1:18:45Like, he's not gonna halve it again, right?
1:18:47- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You know what I mean?
1:18:48So that's the, again, that's just true of anything,
1:18:51not just working it yourself,
1:18:51but especially when you're working it yourself,
1:18:53put your effort towards the thing
1:18:54that's gonna give you the biggest bang for your buck.
1:18:56And so if you halve the number of servers,
1:18:58it's silly to expect that the next change
1:19:01will also have the number of servers,
1:19:02because eventually it'll have 1/1000 of a server.
1:19:05And that's not gonna happen, right?
1:19:07So decide where the bottleneck is and address that.
1:19:12And then if the current state of things is fine,
1:19:15then your work is done, you don't need to work further.
1:19:18I don't think, for example, if he decided the hotspot is PHP,
1:19:21I need to replace PHP with Python,
1:19:23he would not have had the number of servers.
1:19:24That's the type of thing, even without using language,
1:19:26you can kind of ballpark and say,
1:19:28are these of the same level of abstraction?
1:19:30Go is clearly lower level and it's clearly giving him
1:19:33something that PHP wasn't that he knew
1:19:34would be a big bang for the buck.
1:19:36- Yeah, yeah, definitely.
1:19:37- Even been doing watch kit a lot.
1:19:40Lots of watch kit this week.
1:19:41I'm liking it a lot.
1:19:43- Yeah?
1:19:44- 'Cause it's so limited that there's not a lot of pressure
1:19:48on me to make something amazing like that's,
1:19:50like there's not a lot of pressure on me
1:19:52to cram the entire app into this because I just can't.
1:19:57Like it is not possible to.
1:19:59So the limits I have are very challenging
1:20:04and in that way kind of interesting to me.
1:20:07- Can you do a thing with like,
1:20:09do you have accelerometer access on the watch?
1:20:12Like if I shake my wrist?
1:20:13- Nope, no sensors.
1:20:14- No, that would be like,
1:20:16a lot of the time when I'm listening
1:20:17to a podcast or something,
1:20:19I hate, I've talked to you about this before,
1:20:20I hate the stupid little clicker,
1:20:22like going forward and back
1:20:23of doing two clicks and three clicks,
1:20:24which when you have cold fingers
1:20:26and like, I don't know if I accidentally hold too long
1:20:28and ends up being the click and the hold.
1:20:29I know all the patterns, but I just can't make my fingers do it with the stupid Apple
1:20:33Clicker.
1:20:34But you run out of gestures.
1:20:36You don't have enough...
1:20:37There's not enough input.
1:20:38You don't have enough buttons.
1:20:39So a lot of the time it's like, I just missed the last few seconds of what was said on a
1:20:44podcast.
1:20:45I would shake my wrist for it to go back seven seconds and just have that be the one unambiguous,
1:20:49vigorous wrist shaking.
1:20:51I feel like you could make it vigorous enough so you wouldn't accidentally do it or whatever.
1:20:55And that is much easier than me trying to triple click the stupid headset thing to go
1:21:00back and hear what somebody said.
1:21:02Actually I have a prototype class that's a pocket tap recognizer that will try to recognize
1:21:08if you tap the phone while it's in your pocket.
1:21:10Like if you just like hit it with your finger from the outside of your jeans or whatever.
1:21:14And I got that working decently but I could never get it working reliably enough to actually
1:21:21ship it.
1:21:22Like it's just not good enough.
1:21:23there's too many false responses in either direction,
1:21:27like falsely detecting if you just step really hard
1:21:29as a tap and missing real taps.
1:21:32I just could not get it to work properly.
1:21:34- Yeah, and it's kind of small for gestures.
1:21:36That's why I was thinking the one input you have
1:21:38is the shake, and the shake.ndo is silly in iOS,
1:21:42but I'm pretty sure I've never accidentally done it,
1:21:46and I very frequently have A, done it on purpose,
1:21:49and be shaking an app in the dim hope
1:21:53that this app will actually support undo through shake.
1:21:56And I'm really excited when it does,
1:21:57and when it doesn't, I'm just sad.
1:21:58- You've never kicked that off accidentally?
1:22:01- Never.
1:22:02- Oh, I do it all the time,
1:22:03'cause I'll be holding my iPad,
1:22:05so I'll be in bed on my back,
1:22:07holding my iPad up with both hands using it.
1:22:10And then I'll kind of like drop it intentionally
1:22:13to let it land on my chest
1:22:14so I can like type or something like that
1:22:15and not support the weight of the iPad
1:22:18with my hands anymore.
1:22:19- I have an iPad three,
1:22:20if I did it, it would break my ribs.
1:22:22- That's true.
1:22:23That is an excellent point, sir.
1:22:26But yeah, every time I do that deliberate drop
1:22:30onto my chest in order to make it
1:22:33so that I don't have to support it anymore,
1:22:35then it kicks the undo.
1:22:40Do you wanna undo the typing you just did?
1:22:42And it drives me nuts every time.
1:22:43But as a developer, I know that it makes perfect sense
1:22:47why that's happening.
1:22:48It's not my fault, but it's kind of my fault.
1:22:51- Yeah, for all I know, I am accidentally triggering it.
1:22:53I'm just doing it in apps that don't support undo.
1:22:55(laughing)
1:22:56But I've never seen stuff go away on my screen
1:22:59and realize it's because I jostled the thing too much.
1:23:01And like I said, I very frequently,
1:23:03after accidentally performing some action,
1:23:05just futilely shake the device.
1:23:07Even if it doesn't undo, it lets me get revenge, I guess,
1:23:10on the device.
1:23:10You stupid phone.
1:23:12Didn't mean to tap that.
1:23:13You know I didn't mean to tap that.
1:23:14- No, so I've actually,
1:23:16I've been doing a lot of WatchKit stuff.
1:23:17I'm just gonna talk about it now, screw it.
1:23:19So I like it a lot.
1:23:23I think it's important for people's expectations
1:23:26of what WatchKit apps will actually be
1:23:29to actually know how it works a little bit.
1:23:31So basically, when Apple Watch launches in a few months
1:23:36or whenever, it doesn't matter,
1:23:38developers can only,
1:23:39Apple can do whatever they want with their apps,
1:23:41but third-party developers can only make
1:23:42Watch apps with WatchKit.
1:23:44So what this is is,
1:23:47WatchKit is actually an extension that runs on the phone
1:23:51from the main parent app.
1:23:53And it runs in the background.
1:23:55Whenever you select the apps icon on the watch,
1:23:58it launches the WatchKit extension on the phone
1:24:01to boot up, give it data, and control it.
1:24:04And then the third-party developer's code
1:24:06never actually runs on the watch.
1:24:08All the third-party code is running on the phone,
1:24:11and it's literally just like,
1:24:12it's reading data from the parent app on the phone.
1:24:14If you're making network calls,
1:24:15it's also happening on the phone.
1:24:17and then you send commands to the watch
1:24:21to just update the screen.
1:24:22The watch is playing through a static storyboard
1:24:24where you've defined your controllers and everything
1:24:26and the elements they have.
1:24:28Those are all static.
1:24:28You can't generate elements dynamically at runtime.
1:24:32You can hide and show them, but you can't generate new ones.
1:24:34And so the phone is basically commanding the watch
1:24:38over Bluetooth how to update your interface in it.
1:24:42So it's sending over commands like,
1:24:45set this label's text to this string.
1:24:48And like all the commands, it's hilarious,
1:24:50all the commands, they're write only,
1:24:52you can't read from them.
1:24:53So you can set the color of the text
1:24:56but you can't read it back.
1:24:57'Cause it's literally just like this thin layer
1:25:00on top of this command structure
1:25:01that's just like telling the watch
1:25:02how to update its interface.
1:25:04So there's a number of challenges with this
1:25:06and the biggest one is latency
1:25:07'cause Bluetooth has some latency.
1:25:10In modern Bluetooth it's pretty small.
1:25:12But there is some latency.
1:25:14And there's also just a lot,
1:25:16there's pretty limited bandwidth there.
1:25:18And the watch, as far as we can tell
1:25:20from hints and things here and there,
1:25:22the watch is not gonna keep your app running for very long.
1:25:25Like as soon as you stop looking at it,
1:25:27it closes, the extension closes and everything's cut off.
1:25:30So there's gonna be major challenges
1:25:33in just getting these watch apps to be dynamic
1:25:38and to be useful and to be rich.
1:25:39Because if you're sending over images,
1:25:43Even like, you know, I'm having this problem with the album art of like, how do you send
1:25:47over album art in a way that is efficient?
1:25:49And you can have it cache up to 20 megs of album art for you, but not a lot.
1:25:57All these little limitations, little problems, but overall the biggest thing about it is
1:26:02just this lack of dynamic interface and the latency involved in updating things.
1:26:08And everything is based around trying to minimize it.
1:26:11So if you're really chatty over that protocol,
1:26:13over the Bluetooth, you're gonna keep the radios on,
1:26:15and you're gonna burn a bunch of battery life
1:26:16on both sides.
1:26:18So there's a lot of challenges, a lot of limitations here.
1:26:22I would say for the first wave of third party apps,
1:26:26which I think is gonna be a year roughly,
1:26:29I would say don't expect a lot of dynamic interaction.
1:26:34It is like a static menu that you're dealing with,
1:26:37or like static interface elements.
1:26:38there's almost nothing dynamic that you can do.
1:26:40I would not expect a whole lot from games.
1:26:44I think some games will work on it,
1:26:46things where you can have very simple controls
1:26:48like which of these five actions do you wanna do next?
1:26:51Touch this button, like that's it.
1:26:53Like there's not a lot of interaction
1:26:54that's gonna be reasonably possible with the system.
1:26:57On the plus side, it's really quick to develop for
1:27:00and it's really easy to get something going
1:27:02and I think it's a smart move overall from Apple
1:27:07and the tools are pretty good.
1:27:10There's a couple of bugs here and there,
1:27:12but overall for this limited set of things that it's doing,
1:27:15it's pretty well suited for that.
1:27:16So I'm actually really happy about it.
1:27:19I'm, again, as I mentioned earlier,
1:27:20I'm happy that I don't have to kind of be forced
1:27:24to cram the whole app into it because I just can't.
1:27:27So instead I can do this limited subset
1:27:29that I can do in a month or two
1:27:30and have a really great app out there and be done with it.
1:27:35So overall, I like it.
1:27:37Again, set expectations low if you're gonna be buying
1:27:40one of these things.
1:27:41Don't expect a whole lot from third party apps,
1:27:43but what you have I think will be interesting
1:27:46and certainly will be enough for the first year.
1:27:49- That's good for Apple because what they wanna say is,
1:27:52boy, the Apple Watch is out and already there are,
1:27:56insert very large number of third party applications for it
1:28:00because if it's really easy for you to add like,
1:28:02why don't you just add trivial Apple Watch support?
1:28:04Well, all Apple Watch support at this point is trivial
1:28:07without native apps and stuff like that
1:28:08and the incredible limitations.
1:28:09So if you make it easy for people to go,
1:28:11that's a nice bullet point we could add to our iPhone app.
1:28:13I could say we have watch support
1:28:14and then everyone is thinking of,
1:28:15is there anything sensible I can show on the watch?
1:28:17And if there's anything remotely sensible,
1:28:19no matter how simple it is, you don't feel too bad,
1:28:21but it's like, everyone has to be simple.
1:28:22So I think this will help Apple have a lot of,
1:28:25you know, a lot of quote unquote phone apps,
1:28:28you know, iOS apps that support the,
1:28:30phone, watch apps,
1:28:32iOS apps that support the watch out of the gate,
1:28:34because that's what they wanna say.
1:28:35They want to say, "Our platform is exciting, it's popular."
1:28:38And if it was possible to make full-fledged applications,
1:28:41then if you just made some silly thing
1:28:43that was barely interactive, you would look bad.
1:28:45But now everyone will look bad together,
1:28:47and comparatively, you'll look good.
1:28:49- Yeah, I mean, it really does serve
1:28:52their interests very well.
1:28:54And again, I think it helps us too.
1:28:56I mean, I know a lot of developers
1:28:58are probably very frustrated with the limitations
1:29:00of the very long list of things you can't do,
1:29:03things you don't have access to.
1:29:04Like for instance, if your phone moves out of range
1:29:09of the watch, from what we've been told,
1:29:10we don't know that we don't have hardware yet,
1:29:12but from what we've been told,
1:29:14if your phone loses that Bluetooth connection to the watch,
1:29:16so like if you go running with it or whatever,
1:29:19your app just terminates, like it just ends,
1:29:22because it can't keep the UI updated anymore.
1:29:24It's like the head gets cut off, like it just ends.
1:29:28So nothing can run detached from a phone that's third party.
1:29:32and again, there's so many limitations on the things,
1:29:36the kinds of things you can't do with the interface
1:29:39is very long and we still, in the simulator,
1:29:43they have attempted to simulate latency
1:29:47with some of these commands,
1:29:48but it's just artificial insertion of a sleep command
1:29:52in the UI, so we don't really know
1:29:56what the latency will be like on a real device.
1:29:58Like, if I'm showing a list of podcast episodes
1:30:02like I do in the playlist screen.
1:30:04I wanna have artwork on each one,
1:30:05showing you what show they're from.
1:30:07At this point, and I'm compressing the images down
1:30:09so they're really tiny, they're like a couple of kilobytes
1:30:12each maybe, but in the simulator,
1:30:14it takes a long time to load that.
1:30:15And I don't know if that's a bug,
1:30:18I don't know if that's because it's simulating latency
1:30:21like per request instead of by byte size,
1:30:24or I don't know if that's really how latent it's going to be
1:30:26in which case I'm gonna have to change that design entirely.
1:30:29- You gotta think like Yosemite in iTunes 7
1:30:31and just average the color of the album art,
1:30:34pick one color out of it,
1:30:35and then just set a square to that one color.
1:30:38- So I have an honest question,
1:30:42and you may choose not to answer it,
1:30:44but you've talked several times
1:30:46about how limited WatchKit is, which makes sense.
1:30:49Can you give it a couple of examples
1:30:50of things you really wish you could do or have tried to do,
1:30:53but couldn't make work
1:30:54with the current set of WatchKit limitations?
1:30:58- Oh, sure.
1:30:59I mean, one of the biggest ones is,
1:31:01I can't do my play animation at all.
1:31:03I mean, I could render it to a bunch of images
1:31:07and try to send the commands over to be like,
1:31:08all right, set this bar of the EQ to be this height.
1:31:12- No, no, no, no, put them all on the storyboard
1:31:15and you just cycle between those four frames
1:31:17in the storyboard.
1:31:18- Right, yeah. - It's done.
1:31:19- Exactly. - Remember the old,
1:31:20I think the old, you know, a lot of UIs do this
1:31:22where they want it to look like level meters,
1:31:24but they just have like four images
1:31:25that they just cycle between randomly.
1:31:27- Oh, yeah. - Put that on the storyboard.
1:31:28It's all static, Marco, you're overthinking it.
1:31:30- No one will know, no one knows what the waveform
1:31:32is supposed to look like.
1:31:33- That's how Apple does it when, in iOS 7 and on the watch,
1:31:36when they have their music app and they have
1:31:37the little now playing animation bars, those are fake.
1:31:40- Yeah, I think the one in the QuickTime 7 player
1:31:42is real, isn't it?
1:31:43- I don't know, I think so.
1:31:45But yeah, the ones in iOS 7, like the little three bar
1:31:48animation on the now playing item, that's totally fake.
1:31:51And like, seeing that and being annoyed that it was fake
1:31:53is what made me try to do my own that was real
1:31:55and see that it worked.
1:31:56- But the fake ones do serve a purpose.
1:31:58Like, I'm joking about doing a fake one with storyboards,
1:32:00but something to let people know that audio is playing
1:32:04is probably a good idea.
1:32:06I guess it's probably much better
1:32:07to do it with a static thing,
1:32:08like a red light on the camera
1:32:10that shows camera is on or whatever.
1:32:12But if you show anyone that looks anything
1:32:16like a level meter, people know,
1:32:18oh, that means something is playing now.
1:32:19And if I can't hear it, something is screwed up
1:32:21because my headphones don't work.
1:32:22Is the music playing?
1:32:24You would think most people would just look at it
1:32:25and see the pause symbol and say,
1:32:26of course it's playing,
1:32:27otherwise there wouldn't be a pause symbol.
1:32:28but I found my experience that people do not recognize
1:32:31that reality is staring them in the face.
1:32:33But if you show a level meter anywhere,
1:32:34they know something should be playing it,
1:32:36or not hearing it, something's broken.
1:32:38- Right, I mean, so Casey, I mean, to answer your question,
1:32:40like, you know, limitations I've hit directly,
1:32:42I mean, you know, again, one of the biggest ones
1:32:44is just, you know, not knowing how much latency
1:32:47I can actually expect in real life
1:32:49when sending images over and stuff like that.
1:32:51But, you know, some of the actual, like,
1:32:53hard limits are things like,
1:32:55I can't even show efficiently the seconds remaining
1:33:00indicator because there is, there's like a built-in widget
1:33:04that you don't have to keep updating for counting up
1:33:06or down to a certain time or certain time interval
1:33:09or showing the current time.
1:33:10So I can't, like the only way for me to have it count down
1:33:14with like second, with the actual seconds remaining
1:33:16is to update it every time that number changes,
1:33:18so at least once per second, which I probably can't
1:33:21and probably shouldn't be doing.
1:33:23So instead, I have it actually update
1:33:25a minutes remaining counter.
1:33:27And whenever the number of minutes remaining changes,
1:33:30I send an update over the Bluetooth
1:33:32and have it update the label to show that.
1:33:35And I have a progress bar in the current mockup
1:33:38that only it's images, and it only has, you know,
1:33:42like I think 150 increments across the screen.
1:33:46And so whenever like the progress through the episode
1:33:48changes by enough to matter, to be worth a couple of pixels,
1:33:52I update that image to be the new value.
1:33:53- Oh, you're still doing better than Windows 95.
1:33:56- That's true, yes.
1:33:57That was just pallet cycling, right?
1:33:59- No, the Windows 95 is a segmented progress bars.
1:34:02- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:34:03- And you have more than 100,
1:34:04it didn't have 150 segments.
1:34:05- Right, so there's limitations like that
1:34:08that I just can't get around.
1:34:10The biggest limitation is the width of the screen
1:34:15is just really narrow.
1:34:17Like, you just can't fit a lot on the screen.
1:34:20and I've managed to make it work, I think.
1:34:24I won't know until I actually get one of these watches
1:34:26and start using it,
1:34:26but I think I've managed to make it work acceptably.
1:34:29But that is, I mean, the hardest challenge
1:34:31is just a design challenge right there.
1:34:33But then there's also like little details.
1:34:35So if you have a navigation stack,
1:34:38so you have like your root controller,
1:34:39and then it pushes when you select an element
1:34:41on the table view, it pushes the new one.
1:34:43And then you select again, it pushes another one.
1:34:46Any of the ones that are below the current item in the stack
1:34:49that you've pushed something on top of,
1:34:52those stop receiving UI updates
1:34:54and those can no longer send UI updates for themselves.
1:34:59So let's say you have at the base of the navigation hierarchy
1:35:03a list of the podcasts you subscribed to.
1:35:07Then you push on top of that the playlist view
1:35:10and the now playing view.
1:35:11So you're in the middle of a podcast.
1:35:13The list of podcasts you subscribe to
1:35:15changes for some reason.
1:35:16Something new comes into the download, you delete one,
1:35:19Whatever the case, the list changes.
1:35:21So now the root controller,
1:35:22which is not currently shown on screen,
1:35:24'cause it's buried below the now playing,
1:35:26the root controller needs to update itself.
1:35:29It's still memory, it will recognize,
1:35:31if your data layer is set up,
1:35:33it'll recognize that there's been a change,
1:35:35but you have to check to see if it's active,
1:35:36and if it's not active, you have to just enqueue that,
1:35:40and just set like a boolean flag somewhere saying,
1:35:43this is invalid data that I have now,
1:35:45and I need to reload it next time I'm shown.
1:35:47And the next time it's shown,
1:35:48you have to check for that flag and say,
1:35:49oh, if I'm invalid, reload the data.
1:35:51All this stuff, this doesn't really exist
1:35:54in UIKit on the phone.
1:35:56These problems don't really exist.
1:35:57You can just do things anytime you want and it's fine.
1:36:01The watch is really,
1:36:02the watch kit communication is really basic.
1:36:05As I said, it's write only, it's very limited,
1:36:08it's all just sending remote desktop commands
1:36:11over the wire, basically.
1:36:16There's a lot of stuff you have to do very manually.
1:36:19A lot of stuff you just have to choose not to do
1:36:21or choose to do in very minimal or clever ways.
1:36:25And that's kind of why I like it,
1:36:26'cause I enjoy challenges like that.
1:36:28- Then you're gonna get like screen flicker though,
1:36:29when you go back to the podcast list, you know,
1:36:33only once that thing is active,
1:36:34will it even have a chance to update its UI.
1:36:36So as soon as you go back to that screen,
1:36:37if that Boolean is set,
1:36:38you're just now within a couple, you know,
1:36:41fractions of a second, it's gonna update everything.
1:36:43Whereas before it could have been updated
1:36:44behind the scenes sort of.
1:36:45So now you're putting that UI flicker in people's faces,
1:36:48which is kind of crappy.
1:36:49- Yeah, and again, and it sucks,
1:36:51and I don't think there's anything I can do about it,
1:36:53but you know, again, there's just nothing you can do.
1:36:56- Someone needs to discover the hack of like,
1:36:58if you just make the currently active view
1:37:00larger than the actual screen,
1:37:02and like, you know, like sort of like CSS sprites,
1:37:04CSS sprites for UI.
1:37:06- Yeah, right.
1:37:07- Like, I'm not really pushing a view,
1:37:09I'm just shifting the viewport.
1:37:10And so really this view is always active,
1:37:13so I can update the podcast list whenever it's an update.
1:37:15- Yep, nope, can't even do that.
1:37:17- Yeah, I'm sure they would reject your app
1:37:18if you tried to anyway.
1:37:19- I would also, I would love to do like,
1:37:20like the force press gesture on the watch,
1:37:23which is, functionally it's kind of like a right click,
1:37:26it shows that menu of like, of overlaid icons.
1:37:28- When you use the force to press your watch?
1:37:30- Yeah, you just concentrate really hard
1:37:31and this menu comes up.
1:37:33And that, you can only do it per screen.
1:37:38Like you can't force press on say, a table list item
1:37:42and get options for that item.
1:37:44you just have to do it for like the whole screen.
1:37:46Like this screen has the force press.
1:37:47- Yeah, the force press is on the screen,
1:37:49but then it ignores what part of the screen
1:37:51your finger is touching.
1:37:52And I can kind of see that because
1:37:54if that gesture becomes part of the vocabulary
1:37:56of using the watch, it's kind of weird
1:37:59to make people care about where their finger is
1:38:01on the screen, you know what I mean?
1:38:02Like that's two different things
1:38:03because then you'd have to be thinking,
1:38:05is this one of those force presses in this app
1:38:07where it doesn't matter where my finger is,
1:38:09or is this one of those force presses in this app
1:38:10where it does whatever my finger is?
1:38:12Now you can just shove your meaty paw under the watch
1:38:15and just press it and it'll do something.
1:38:17- Yeah, exactly.
1:38:18But I mean, really, I was not really that excited
1:38:21about the watch until I started playing with WatchKit.
1:38:23Now I'm very excited.
1:38:24Now that I see what I can do with not that much effort,
1:38:28and how useful that would probably actually be in practice,
1:38:30which I think is pretty useful.
1:38:31There's a lot of situations where I'm walking my dog
1:38:35all bundled up in the cold, and I'm like,
1:38:36"Man, I would really like to have
1:38:37"a basic little watch control right now."
1:38:39(laughs)
1:38:40lot of situations where this is coming up where I'm like, "Yeah, this would actually
1:38:43be nice to have." So I'm looking forward to it.
1:38:45You've got to wait five years before we can live in the real future where we can have
1:38:49a great view of your nose hair when you're out on your walk because you'll have a live
1:38:53video on your watch just like Dick Tracy. We'll all be able to see up each other's noses.
1:38:59That sounds awesome. The future.
1:39:01I can't wait. Yeah, because like this whole thing, you just
1:39:04look at your watch and your wrist vibrates a little bit and you pick up your wrist and
1:39:10there's your wife's tiny little face on there telling you something and she can see right
1:39:13up your nose.
1:39:15Yay.
1:39:16The future!
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