100: MacBook Shuffle


00:00:00   100 episodes gentlemen, I'm proud of us. Yeah, if I had remembered we should have planned something better, but oh well

00:00:05   We just had an episode

00:00:07   That's but that that's the us thing to do. Yep, that totally is and that's exactly what we did because we're us

00:00:12   But sometimes I like to think that we can be better than us but nope

00:00:18   Actually, that should be the pre show right there feel free sets expectations exactly what you're gonna get

00:00:28   It was a fine show. It was a reasonable show. It was a regular show.

00:00:30   [

00:00:37   100 oh my god. I forgot about that mm-hmm now. I'm excited

00:00:40   I thought about that like a week ago that we were coming up on a hundred, but I didn't remember it tonight well

00:00:45   so this shows were just a

00:00:47   Bunch of dudes who don't remember important dates, so we all forgot we all forgot our own birthday

00:00:51   No case you remember just me and you John we we forgot yeah

00:00:55   I guess so hypercritical made it to a hut to a hundred asterisk

00:00:59   What did build an analyze go to 108 like lost?

00:01:02   okay, so

00:01:05   If we make it to 101 then we have unequivocally done better than hypercritical is that fair to say?

00:01:13   That's not how that works

00:01:15   Well, I should have said better

00:01:17   That was a poor choice of words of I part thank you for keeping me honest we have perhaps completed more

00:01:25   Can I get that from you John believe more episodes? Yes, that's what it means when one number is bigger than another

00:01:31   I mean we technically have already completed more episodes because there was that one that was just like the promo

00:01:37   That was for the movie thing and there was the one that me and Merlin did when John couldn't do it

00:01:41   Which isn't really a real episode of hypercritical. It's a real episode of it's got a number and it's got a title

00:01:46   It's in the RSS feed. That's as real as real can be

00:01:48   Well, but it didn't have you on it doesn't matter was called hypercritical had a number had title

00:01:54   It had a page had show notes that had everything that an episode has I

00:01:59   I did think that was I mean, I haven't listened back but at the time I was actually very happy with how that turned out

00:02:03   It didn't feel like hypercritical at all, but I was very happy with it. I I wish Merlin like had a tech show

00:02:09   and and maybe maybe we're maybe it's better for everyone including him that that he doesn't that he instead just like

00:02:16   Makes parts of his other shows tech when he has something funny to say about it

00:02:20   but I like he is so good with the tech stuff so incredibly good and and provides a voice for it and and

00:02:27   opinion is for it that we really don't hear from other people and

00:02:30   And I always feel like like we're missing that you know if by good you mean makes me want to yell into the podcast

00:02:37   The best is when they do it on Roderick on the line here the two of them together talking tech just makes me want to

00:02:46   Throttle them both. Oh, I love it

00:02:48   I think it's the best that one they did like three or four episodes ago where like the whole first half was about tech was

00:02:53   amazing

00:02:54   All right, so the show bot is semi broken just like old times just like old times jerk

00:03:01   Do you want to is this a clip show?

00:03:04   Well play our hundredth episode spectacular

00:03:10   Would you like to wager a guest what happened?

00:03:13   Did you not properly non retain the closure to set timeout so the memory leak all over the place?

00:03:21   No, that's a good guess but now and I should say that I have not knowingly changed any of the code with relation to

00:03:29   The show bot specifically are you now gonna rewrite it and go no, but it is slightly tempting

00:03:34   Honestly, you probably should it's a fun exercise if you're right sitting go his site will pay him money for hosting

00:03:42   Go negative instead of being free. That's quite possible

00:03:46   No, that is not the case

00:03:50   So

00:03:51   Here it was I was thinking about making this big grandiose speech about how it really isn't so terrible

00:03:57   Relying on third-party code because it allows you to do things that are kind of cool more specifically

00:04:04   Earlier today. I decided that I was really tired of not being able to use markdown

00:04:10   Footnotes in my in my site because all the cool kids use markdown footnotes. I want to be a cool kid the particular

00:04:19   module or whatever that I was using was called marked and it's it's an NPM module or package

00:04:26   I get think is the word I'm looking for anyway, and so I

00:04:29   Swapped marked for markdown it which is a different package that also parses markdown

00:04:36   And I was all excited with myself because now I had markdown footnotes

00:04:41   the problem then that I ran into then was

00:04:45   Now on my main page, which is the only page that I can think of that has more than one complete post on a single page,

00:04:53   what happens when I have two posts that both have footnotes? Because they're both generated in isolation, and so they'll reuse the same anchors.

00:05:04   And so then I had to go through a humongous song and dance, which ended up being simple at the very end,

00:05:10   I tried like 34 different iterations to get to the simple answer of what to do and how

00:05:17   to make unique each of these Markdown footnote anchors.

00:05:21   So I got that accomplished.

00:05:22   Well, what I didn't think to do was check the Showbot, specifically the page that's

00:05:29   hosted on my regular site that handles the Showbot and see what the ramifications of

00:05:38   this markdown parser switch would be.

00:05:41   And it appears, for those of you who are not listening live, if this actually makes it

00:05:45   in the show, it appears that somehow it is emitting escaped HTML only for the links section

00:05:55   of the Showbot page.

00:05:57   So I'm seeing all the titles just fine, but the links are just the HTML header for the

00:06:04   table and nothing else.

00:06:06   So oops, sorry everyone.

00:06:07   All right, good talk.

00:06:09   All right, that was our 100th episode spectacular.

00:06:11   Hope everyone was happy.

00:06:13   - Yep, I guess the show's over now

00:06:14   'cause we can't go past 100.

00:06:15   - Something like that.

00:06:16   - We are joking, the show is still going on.

00:06:18   - Everybody relax.

00:06:20   - We've sold ads past 100.

00:06:21   So in fact, well past 100, so we have to keep doing it.

00:06:25   - That's actually a really good point.

00:06:27   All right, so let's do some follow up.

00:06:29   And I'd like to start with some very quick

00:06:33   anecdotal thoughts about using USB ports.

00:06:37   So we talked last episode about why is that so funny?

00:06:42   - And then we're gonna watch paint dry.

00:06:43   - Oh, come on, give me a chance here.

00:06:45   So last episode, we talked about how

00:06:49   on the potential iPad Pro/Macbook Air,

00:06:54   that there's theoretically only going to be one USB port,

00:06:58   it's USB type C port, and whether or not that's a big deal.

00:07:02   And particularly John and I were going back and forth as to whether or not that's a big deal.

00:07:06   And so I thought to myself, well, let me ask my family because they're normal computer users and see, okay, does anyone actually use USB ports?

00:07:13   Because one of the things I was, I was thinking during the show and hopefully explained during the show was, Hey, we have a lot of technologies now like airdrop, for example, that may, uh, obviate.

00:07:24   I think that's what I'm looking for.

00:07:25   That may obviate the use of USB keys.

00:07:27   And there's a bunch of other examples, Bluetooth for mice and keyboards.

00:07:32   So I asked my family, what do you use your USB ports for?

00:07:36   And Aaron and my mom both said,

00:07:38   well, I charge my Fitbit that way.

00:07:40   Well, you know, that's something,

00:07:42   you could find other means for doing that,

00:07:44   but that's a reasonable answer.

00:07:45   And Aaron also has an iPod shuffle.

00:07:47   And so she said, well, I also, you know,

00:07:49   load things onto my iPod shuffle that way.

00:07:51   And obviously that's not a big deal for a phone,

00:07:53   but for an iPod shuffle, you're really out of luck otherwise.

00:07:56   My immediate younger brother, I have two younger brothers,

00:07:58   my immediate younger brother who is a real adult

00:08:01   and works in the video game industry actually, said that he typically uses his USB ports

00:08:08   for keyboard, mouse, iPhone and USB key, oftentimes but not always simultaneously.

00:08:13   And my youngest brother who is studying out in California, he's doing a master's, he said

00:08:20   and I'm quoting, "I don't have enough and I have three."

00:08:24   So he was saying that he uses his for a mouse of his phone and oftentimes more than one

00:08:31   USB key and additionally at least one external hard drive. So it appears that my theory that

00:08:39   really you don't need USB ports, maybe not so solid after all.

00:08:43   Well, I think, you know, I think you're seeing, I bet there's like a big bifurcation of the

00:08:48   market here where if I had to guess, I would guess that what you have here is a pretty

00:08:54   good representative sample actually, just by luck. I mean, I don't think your family

00:08:58   is like the most average family ever made.

00:09:00   But you know, I think like if I had to guess how it was,

00:09:04   I would guess this is how it is,

00:09:05   which is that most people use very few of them,

00:09:09   and the primary reason they use them

00:09:10   is to charge things that charge over USB.

00:09:13   Phones, Fitbits, some cameras, stuff like that.

00:09:16   Like charging things over USB I think is a big thing,

00:09:20   especially in recent years when so many devices

00:09:22   have become chargeable over USB.

00:09:25   And for that, you don't necessarily need

00:09:29   to be using a port on your computer for that,

00:09:31   although it is convenient,

00:09:32   because your computer is right there on your desk,

00:09:34   and it has these ports,

00:09:35   and you don't have to take up more outlets,

00:09:37   and you don't have to bring so many adapters on trips.

00:09:40   So it is definitely convenient,

00:09:41   although it isn't strictly necessary.

00:09:43   And then you have the people like Brady, your brother,

00:09:46   where three ports is not enough,

00:09:49   because he has lots of devices.

00:09:50   This will apply to a lot of people

00:09:51   who have a bunch of peripherals,

00:09:53   who have a bunch of disks,

00:09:54   who have a big desk setup with an external keyboard,

00:09:58   mouse, disk maybe, other stuff.

00:10:00   If you have a big setup where you're parking

00:10:02   a laptop all the time, you're gonna need more than that,

00:10:04   in which case, no number of ports on a laptop

00:10:07   is going to be enough and you're gonna be using a hub.

00:10:10   Now, things that are attached via adapters or hubs

00:10:13   are inherently less reliable than built-in ports

00:10:16   most of the time in my experience.

00:10:18   And as we move towards computers that have fewer

00:10:22   and fewer internal devices and ports,

00:10:25   I think this is gonna keep being a problem.

00:10:28   Fortunately, the need for many of these things

00:10:29   is also going away as this transition happens,

00:10:31   but you might not need an ethernet port anymore

00:10:35   because you just use wireless,

00:10:36   and especially on a laptop

00:10:37   where that's probably very frequently the case.

00:10:40   Whereas on a desktop, you need some of these things.

00:10:43   Now, what I don't want, what I'm not looking forward to

00:10:47   is a world in which you have this one port on the computer

00:10:51   and then you just have to plug in some random hub

00:10:54   from Amazon from God knows what manufacturer

00:10:56   with God knows who's chip inside of it

00:10:58   that has some weird cheapo power supply

00:11:02   that's gonna flake out and get all weird

00:11:04   and start causing weird hard to diagnose errors

00:11:07   for the things that are plugged into it

00:11:08   or intermittent failures for things that are plugged into it.

00:11:11   Like I don't wanna get to the point

00:11:13   where I'm dependent on some cheap USB hub from Amazon

00:11:17   and trying to find like the best one

00:11:18   that actually will work because like I have

00:11:21   that now and like there's a certain subset of devices that I will only plug

00:11:24   in directly to the computer ports because the hubs just are never that

00:11:28   reliable and please don't email me as saying I bought this hub but it's

00:11:31   perfect if you look at every hub I looked at all of them and and all of

00:11:35   them have mostly reviews that say this is perfect and a bunch of you saying

00:11:39   this flaked out on me and it's like it seems like they're all basically the

00:11:42   same I bet the number of actual manufacturers of these things is

00:11:46   probably pretty small the number of chipsets they use is probably even

00:11:49   smaller. So like it's just the kind of thing like being dependent on like the

00:11:54   random PC peripheral hardware market for your stuff to work properly is not a

00:11:59   good place to be. Yeah. So if Apple was gonna do this thing where it's like oh

00:12:04   one port and if you need more you can always have a hub or break I think like

00:12:07   at the very least you would think that Apple would have to sign itself up to

00:12:11   make a high quality one of these that works because I have problems with hubs

00:12:16   all the time too. And in addition to like the things you just mentioned, some things

00:12:22   just plain not working, some things being flaky. The worst of course is if you have

00:12:26   a drive attached to a hub, because the last thing you want to be flaky is your connection

00:12:30   to a drive, especially if it's your backup drive and who knows what it's doing over there.

00:12:34   But then also like sleep/wake issues where it won't go to sleep with the hub attached

00:12:40   or won't wake with the hub attached or the hub will wake it up because something will

00:12:44   tickle it or it'll fire off a little thing and it'll make the computer think you've plugged

00:12:47   in a USB device when you haven't actually. So many problems. And the only way Apple can

00:12:52   sort of defend against them is that we sell, I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this because

00:12:57   like the Thunderbolt display had all the problems I had or associated with the ports that were

00:13:01   in it. It was effectively a big giant Apple made hub where you plug a Thunderbolt cable

00:13:05   into your computer and the power thing because it's actually powering your computer too.

00:13:09   And out of it you get Ethernet, USB, Firewire, like all these ports. And that was the problematic

00:13:13   part of the display, not the display part, but yeah, if that's going to be their solution,

00:13:19   they should make one and they should test that one and make sure it works and make sure

00:13:22   computers sleep and wake with it. And when I say that, I'm thinking they can't even make

00:13:25   sure their computers sleep and wake with nothing attached to them reliably. So sleep wake problems

00:13:30   are evergreen when it comes to all laptops and Apple laptops, I think are the same as

00:13:36   any other in that area. So yeah, but aside from all the reliability concerns, I still

00:13:42   come back to the convenience angle, which is like, why, you know, why the whole point

00:13:48   of the thing is supposed to be convenience and in the absence of some other reason, why

00:13:52   not put another one on if it can fit?

00:13:55   All right. So let's talk about re-clarification of context for the 12 inch air, Jon.

00:14:01   Yeah, the discussion we had, there's a lot of feedback about it, a lot of tweets, and

00:14:05   these aren't all tweets that were happening while people live tweeting while they listened

00:14:08   the show. To clarify again, how we were discussing the 12-inch air, we weren't making any judgment

00:14:15   about the validity of the rumors. We didn't spend any time, and I don't think we should

00:14:19   spend any time, discussing like, how likely is it that these rumors are true, that Apple

00:14:24   make this device, or whatever. We were just considering the rumored device as if it was

00:14:28   real, and saying, if Apple made this, would it be something that we would want? The only

00:14:33   thing we did about validity, and I think it's the main thing you should do about any rumors,

00:14:37   is like, is it technically possible?

00:14:40   And we covered that straight away in the last show.

00:14:43   And that's important because it's the easiest way

00:14:46   you can deal with rumors.

00:14:47   Like obviously there's, you don't know everything,

00:14:49   but if someone says that Apple is going to come out

00:14:52   with like a Mac Pro the size of a penny,

00:14:55   that'll be 10 times faster than the current model,

00:14:58   and it's coming out this year, you can dismiss it

00:15:00   because you know it's not technically feasible.

00:15:01   Like, and there's a range there.

00:15:03   If a rumor has a date or a technology or both,

00:15:06   You can, you know, like Apple is going to drive all of its ports over the headphone jack.

00:15:11   Well, we know that's not possible.

00:15:12   And, you know, barring some crazy thing that we've never heard of.

00:15:16   And if there's a crazy thing we've never heard of, it's probably bad

00:15:19   because it would be proprietary and Apple only and whatever.

00:15:21   But yeah, everything else about it, we weren't making guesses about it.

00:15:25   And then I was getting a couple of bits of angry feedback from people, mostly tweets.

00:15:30   And when I listened back to the show, I realized what they were all yelling at me about.

00:15:33   I wasn't responding to their tweets because I didn't understand what they were angry about or like worked up about and it was it was

00:15:39   the part of the episode where I think Margot or

00:15:43   Casey maybe was like what if the rumors are for like, you know an iPad Pro and 12-inch Mac

00:15:51   We get and I said these are not two separate devices

00:15:53   That was a reference to the iPhone keynote, but I said it like emphatically like Steve Jobs says it in the keynote. These are not

00:16:00   three separate devices

00:16:03   This is one device.

00:16:05   (audience cheering)

00:16:07   - For people who haven't memorized every second

00:16:09   of that keynote, it's a thing that Steve Jobs said

00:16:12   when the iPhone was introduced.

00:16:14   And watch the video and it will make more sense.

00:16:17   But it sounded like, if you just listen back to it,

00:16:18   it sounded like I was super emphatic

00:16:20   that these are not just, I don't know if they're just,

00:16:22   it was just a stupid rumor.

00:16:22   I was making a joke.

00:16:24   - Even we got that and we don't get anything.

00:16:26   - Yeah, well, if I'm gonna make a reference

00:16:27   that you're gonna get,

00:16:28   it's gonna be on the iPhone keynote, right?

00:16:30   (laughing)

00:16:31   It's not gonna, yeah, pop culture.

00:16:33   So we didn't even talk about iPad,

00:16:35   we've talked about iPad Pro in the past,

00:16:36   but because that story had renderings of a,

00:16:40   mock-ups of this rumored product,

00:16:41   and that's what we talked about.

00:16:42   Those renderings, those mock-ups, those rumors.

00:16:44   - Right, and the only reason I said that I was suspicious

00:16:46   whether this was two separate devices

00:16:47   is because the rumors over the last few months

00:16:51   have been all pointing towards two 12-inch Retina

00:16:55   ultra-portable devices from Apple

00:16:57   coming at about the same time.

00:16:59   And I thought, you know, the same size display,

00:17:02   the same, like, all this stuff, like all these rumors,

00:17:05   all this smoke around this, you know,

00:17:07   there's probably fire behind it.

00:17:08   It's like, is this really gonna be two different devices

00:17:11   that are like the exact same size

00:17:13   that are radically different from each other?

00:17:14   Like, I was skeptical of that.

00:17:17   I remain a little skeptical of that,

00:17:19   except that I've heard from so many people

00:17:21   who claim to have knowledge of this,

00:17:24   and it's all, you know, secondhand here,

00:17:25   say all this stuff, but so many people

00:17:26   who claim to have heard authoritatively

00:17:29   that no, this is really two separate devices.

00:17:30   - Yeah, well, we just gotta wait for the 9to5Mac store

00:17:33   with mockups of the iPad Pro,

00:17:35   and then we could talk about that too.

00:17:36   'Cause like, I mean, there are rumors everywhere.

00:17:39   And like the reason we discussed the 9to5Mac one

00:17:41   is because it was an interesting rumor at least.

00:17:44   And 9to5Mac's track record is reasonable enough

00:17:48   that we're not just like picking some random thing

00:17:50   from some website and saying,

00:17:51   "Somebody said this, let's talk about it."

00:17:52   Because, you know, and again,

00:17:54   because it was technically feasible

00:17:55   because it's a great rumor that takes advantage

00:17:58   of known technologies that we have.

00:18:00   Like the USB 3, the connector and what the bus can carry

00:18:03   makes new hardware designs possible.

00:18:05   So it's inevitable that Apple will use that connector

00:18:08   in interesting ways on its future Macs

00:18:10   and this rumor is one possible way that they could do it.

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00:22:05   - Okay, so John, would you like to tell us

00:22:07   a little bit about Hypercritical back in the day?

00:22:10   - Yeah, that's another person reminding me

00:22:12   of shows I did that I've forgotten.

00:22:13   This is Jason Becker.

00:22:14   Wait, is Hypercritical follow-up carrying you over to this show?

00:22:17   Yeah, more or less, because people keep reminding me that, like, "Hey, you talked about something

00:22:22   on Hypercritical that's relevant to what you're talking about on ATP," and hypercritical I

00:22:26   was talking about is probably one of my blog posts, so Hypercritical will go about things

00:22:29   getting thinner.

00:22:30   I think at the time it was about the iMac, because people were upset that the iMac was

00:22:33   super thin or whatever.

00:22:35   But it's relevant to the rumored 12-inch error, because the whole deal with the 12-inch error

00:22:39   is, like, they just keep making it thinner, and Marco was talking about, like, "Why do

00:22:42   you got to taper it?"

00:22:43   We've talked about this before, like if you don't taper it, you can fit way more battery.

00:22:46   And what does the taper give you?

00:22:48   That's another example of like, you know, give me the reason for this.

00:22:53   The reason I would imagine for the taper is perception of thinness and possibly weight.

00:23:00   Those are the two, like because the taper does make it feel like, wow, look at this

00:23:03   razor edge type thing.

00:23:05   It feels thinner than every uniform and making it actually be thinner reduces the weight.

00:23:11   Maybe there's room for a non tapered version to get more battery

00:23:14   But we don't know what the battery life is of this fictional project anyway, so we have to wait to see what it's like

00:23:17   But it always comes back to that question that we talked about with the phones

00:23:21   And I've always said that I even though it's frustrating that they don't expand the line to give a model that is a little bit thicker

00:23:28   And a little bit heavier in exchange for battery life

00:23:30   But just rely entirely on third-party you know battery cases and stuff or you know third-party

00:23:34   Recharge extra battery packs and other stuff they sell for laptops that you you know plug into it

00:23:39   On a long plane flight or whatever

00:23:41   Why do they keep making a thinner? Why and and why do I support that idea?

00:23:45   And one of the reasons that I supported it is I think I'll find I have to find this this post on my website

00:23:50   I didn't put in the show. It's

00:23:52   That you don't if you just keep making them the same thickness and keep making the battery bigger and just keep finding things to do

00:23:57   With the space available to you like oh we can use an even hotter GPU and now that the power of everything has gone down

00:24:03   We can you know, we have so much extra power budget

00:24:05   we can make the battery life even longer.

00:24:07   And you could do a lot if you stayed within a similar size.

00:24:10   But if you do that, you're never going to learn

00:24:12   how to make things really thin.

00:24:13   And it's not like five years from now,

00:24:17   someone's gonna be ready with some new technology,

00:24:20   like, wow, with that technology,

00:24:22   we can make a laptop even thinner.

00:24:25   And you won't have the expertise

00:24:27   to jump from your half-inch thick laptop

00:24:30   to the one that's the thickness of a credit card or whatever.

00:24:32   It works better with that analogy

00:24:33   when you talk about phones.

00:24:34   but I think that was the analogy I was using is like,

00:24:37   phones keep getting thinner and it's like stupid,

00:24:39   soon they're gonna be able to bend them,

00:24:41   like we've got the bending issues

00:24:43   with the iPhone 6 and everything

00:24:44   and they just, they start becoming thin enough,

00:24:46   you're like, geez, we're going in the wrong direction here,

00:24:48   we just need to stop.

00:24:50   You don't need to stop,

00:24:51   actually you need to just keep going and go through

00:24:53   and until your phone ends up the thickness

00:24:55   and weight of a credit card

00:24:57   and then when you drop it on the ground, who cares?

00:24:59   'Cause if you drop a credit card on the ground,

00:25:00   nothing happens to it, right?

00:25:01   It's flexible, it's thin, it's lighter,

00:25:03   it's more durable, but you're not gonna get to your phone

00:25:07   that is so light and thin and durable

00:25:08   that you don't even care about it.

00:25:09   You're never gonna get there

00:25:10   if you keep making your phone the thickness

00:25:12   of the original iPhone and you just keep adding more CPU

00:25:14   and RAM and battery to that thickness.

00:25:16   So this I think is part of the march of progress.

00:25:19   And as it relates to the MacBook Air, rumored 12 inch,

00:25:22   or even just any of the MacBook Airs that are out now,

00:25:25   why do they keep making that thinner?

00:25:27   What are they aiming for now?

00:25:29   I think part of it is weight,

00:25:31   because as Marco found out with the iPad Air,

00:25:33   Even though weight is like, oh, who cares,

00:25:35   a couple grams here, a couple grams there.

00:25:37   For things that you either hold all the time,

00:25:39   like the iOS devices, or carry around a lot,

00:25:41   from room to room, or put in your backpack,

00:25:44   there are little thresholds of weight.

00:25:47   I think, speaking of Merlin talking about tech,

00:25:48   Merlin has discussed this on his podcast a few times,

00:25:52   how once you pass a certain threshold of weight,

00:25:54   he doesn't notice when that Apple hardware

00:25:56   is in his backpack.

00:25:57   Like he says he notices more

00:25:58   if he brings his Leatherman with him,

00:26:00   like a metal tool.

00:26:02   He notices when that's in his backpack,

00:26:03   but he can't even tell, is my iPad mini in there

00:26:05   or is it not?

00:26:06   And the MacBook Air could be getting to that thing

00:26:08   where it's not a factor of like,

00:26:10   whoever used to be like,

00:26:11   "Oh, I'm gonna have a laptop in my backpack.

00:26:12   I don't wanna lug that big thing around."

00:26:14   MacBook Air has already kind of crossed the threshold

00:26:17   of like, it's not a big thing to lug around,

00:26:18   but you kinda know when it's in there.

00:26:20   And if they keep going along this path

00:26:21   and making it thinner and keeping with the taper,

00:26:23   making it lighter, they are,

00:26:25   they will eventually run up into a durability issue

00:26:27   because you can't make aluminum that thin

00:26:29   because it doesn't spring back like say,

00:26:30   carbon fiber would.

00:26:31   and then they got the screen problem there,

00:26:33   especially if you use glass anywhere in it for flexibility.

00:26:35   But they're approaching a place

00:26:37   where they'll have to do some materials redesign.

00:26:39   So within the current materials they're using,

00:26:41   they're just trying to keep it going thinner

00:26:43   to get the expertise of like, how thin can we make this?

00:26:45   How much can we remove?

00:26:46   What is actually essential?

00:26:47   Now you gotta get Johnny Iovine

00:26:48   in his white world talking about this stuff.

00:26:49   What is essential for a laptop?

00:26:52   Do you need a keyboard and a screen?

00:26:54   How about just a keyboard?

00:26:55   No screen.

00:26:56   The MacBook shuffle.

00:26:57   (laughing)

00:26:59   That's what I'm still thinking about these things,

00:27:01   which is why I'm not digging them so much for why you gotta make it something.

00:27:04   The port thing, I complain to them because if you think you need any ports, why would

00:27:11   you have one of them and not two?

00:27:12   So there's another follow up item about that.

00:27:15   I just wanted to follow that up because hey, I talked about an Africa critical and I actually

00:27:20   blogged about it and it is relevant to the rumors of this fictional product.

00:27:24   There was a really good post on Six Colors, Jason Snell's new website, with research help

00:27:29   from our friend Steven Hackett about Apple solving for X with battery life.

00:27:37   The gist of the post is, if you look, Apple has clearly decided what the right level of

00:27:43   battery life is for iPhones and iPads, and they've kept it fairly consistent, or at least

00:27:49   within a very small range.

00:27:51   iPads are exactly the same, and iPhones vary a little bit more, but it's clear that Apple

00:27:58   has decided through whatever, through research or experimentation or just thinking whatever

00:28:03   they think is best, they've decided clearly like, we don't need more battery life than

00:28:08   this in this device type.

00:28:10   And so any savings we get from advancements in technology or manufacturing, we can apply

00:28:15   to other areas like making it thinner and lighter.

00:28:19   And I think this, it's so obvious when you look at this that, okay, of course that's

00:28:24   what they're doing, that's what they have been doing.

00:28:27   And so looking at this I think it's pretty obvious that the "Macbook stealth" or

00:28:32   whatever this thing ends up being called, that's probably not its name, but whatever

00:28:36   this thing ends up being called if it's real, I think it's pretty obvious that it's

00:28:40   not going to be a quantum leap forward in battery life.

00:28:42   It is most likely going to, they're going to apply those savings towards the innocent

00:28:46   weight.

00:28:47   And I agree, John, with what you said about we do need to make progress in those areas

00:28:50   over time.

00:28:52   I do think though, like, I don't know anybody who has an iPhone who is extremely satisfied

00:28:58   with his battery life most of the time.

00:29:00   You do now.

00:29:02   I have an iPhone.

00:29:03   I am extremely satisfied with his battery life.

00:29:05   You've had an iPhone for like a day.

00:29:06   I know, but this is how I...

00:29:09   Part of the reason I didn't have an iPhone is because I don't really, you know, need

00:29:13   one, but now that I have one, I am completely satisfied with his battery life.

00:29:17   Like, I can forget to charge it for a day and I'm fine.

00:29:20   I go two days with it.

00:29:22   Who you know who uses an iPhone who goes two days with it?

00:29:25   It doesn't mean that it's not appropriate,

00:29:27   as I said before, for Apple to have a model of phone

00:29:30   that does a different trade-off for people,

00:29:32   for people who do use it heavily,

00:29:33   who do barely get through the day on a charge,

00:29:36   there should be a product for them,

00:29:37   but the current battery life is fine.

00:29:39   And I think in their little graphs,

00:29:40   they showed like an uptick for the,

00:29:42   I can think of it as the 6 Plus that had the big uptick,

00:29:44   but I think--

00:29:45   - Yeah, the 6 Plus is the only big jump on it.

00:29:47   - But the 6 is up a little bit too.

00:29:48   I mean we've talked over the past year many many times about the same exact thing of like

00:29:54   Of how of how they there hold the hold the battery life

00:29:59   Constant and then make it thinner if you can and I

00:30:03   Margot you were saying that like they've decided decided that's the best for that. I don't think they've decided anything like that

00:30:10   I think that's just that's the battery life they have and when they made a follow-up device there was a mandate no regression on battery life

00:30:16   Make it thinner if you can

00:30:18   and that mandate wavered on the iPad 3.

00:30:21   Again, we've discussed this many times.

00:30:23   And so that has been their mandate,

00:30:25   but I wouldn't wager too much on them deciding,

00:30:30   the same way that they decided like,

00:30:31   "Oh, this size for the iPhone is exactly the right size."

00:30:33   No, that's just the size they made it.

00:30:35   Seemed like a good size at the time.

00:30:36   Later they tried taller.

00:30:37   That was all right too, and then they made it bigger.

00:30:39   That's all right too.

00:30:41   It's up for grabs, right?

00:30:42   And I think the battery life on all the products

00:30:45   being held more or less constant

00:30:46   is simply a matter of the follow-up product

00:30:48   can't be worse than the one that came before.

00:30:50   But if you try to make it better,

00:30:52   all the areas that you can make it better,

00:30:54   battery life seems like the last on the list.

00:30:57   Like you're not gonna regress,

00:30:58   you gotta make it at least the same

00:30:59   'cause the new phone's gotta be better

00:31:00   than the one that replaces it.

00:31:01   But we can make it better in CPU, in GPU, in screen,

00:31:05   in the interface, in cheapness in the manufacturer,

00:31:10   durability, like all these different categories.

00:31:11   And battery life is like, just don't regress.

00:31:13   Like it seems to be pretty darn low on the list

00:31:15   of things they're prioritizing.

00:31:17   And I think those are reasonable priorities,

00:31:18   again, for the reason I talked about with the thinness,

00:31:20   and also because faster CPUs and GPUs,

00:31:23   cell phones more than battery life.

00:31:26   You just need to make one model

00:31:27   that has decent battery, yeah,

00:31:28   but I guess maybe the 6 Plus is that model.

00:31:29   - Yeah, I think that's pretty clear

00:31:31   that that's their answer.

00:31:32   No, but I think similar to your arguing about thinness,

00:31:35   where we have to make progress gradually over time

00:31:39   to eventually have a major step forward in total,

00:31:44   you can apply the same thing to battery life,

00:31:45   And they have made incremental progress over time,

00:31:47   but it really has been fairly incremental.

00:31:50   And part of this is just because battery technology

00:31:53   changes so incredibly slowly.

00:31:54   And we're not gonna have--

00:31:56   - Compared to the silicon technology, basically.

00:31:58   Not that it changes that, I mean, it changes,

00:32:00   the speed is fine, it's just it compared

00:32:01   to almost every other component.

00:32:03   What you can do with those phones,

00:32:06   the screens are just twice as good,

00:32:08   twice, three times the resolution

00:32:09   in the lifetime of the phone.

00:32:10   The batteries have not gotten three times as good

00:32:12   in the lifetime of the phone.

00:32:13   is just the different rates of technology change.

00:32:15   - Right, and if you look at the laptops,

00:32:18   their battery lives have gone up substantially

00:32:21   over the last few years, where it wasn't that long ago

00:32:23   that a five hour battery life was top of the line

00:32:27   under the most ideal conditions only.

00:32:29   And now we're up to seven, eight, fairly regularly.

00:32:33   Although I've never gotten that,

00:32:34   but that could just be because I buy

00:32:35   the big four core models, I don't know.

00:32:36   Anyway, with battery life, where things get interesting,

00:32:41   where you get really interesting shifts

00:32:45   in what this enables you to do

00:32:47   is when you have a really big change in battery life.

00:32:49   When all of a sudden, if your laptop,

00:32:53   if you don't need to be plugging it in all day,

00:32:55   if you can actually work on battery all day

00:32:58   and not worry, not have range anxiety,

00:33:01   not worry about bottoming out and having to go plug in,

00:33:04   if you can treat it, if your laptop genuinely has 24 hour

00:33:08   in use with WiFi battery life,

00:33:11   then that enables uses, that enables freedoms

00:33:14   that you might not have before

00:33:16   or that you couldn't really count on reliably before.

00:33:19   That's where things get interesting

00:33:20   is when you can make jumps like that.

00:33:22   And over time, eventually maybe we'll get there,

00:33:24   I hope, maybe.

00:33:26   But if you look at the way Apple does these jumps,

00:33:28   it doesn't look like getting there is a very high priority.

00:33:33   Eventually they might get there accidentally,

00:33:37   but it doesn't seem like they're pushing for that.

00:33:40   And I think that's a lost opportunity.

00:33:42   - I think the rumored 12-inch MacBook is an indication

00:33:46   of how they might make the next step on that.

00:33:49   Because as we said, when they have this extra capacity,

00:33:54   the batteries aren't getting better that much faster.

00:33:56   But what is happening is that every other component

00:33:58   that's in the laptop gets lower power,

00:33:59   and that's how we get the current good MacBook Airs

00:34:02   that have better battery life than the old ones did.

00:34:05   But for this rumored thing, this could be a way

00:34:08   they make sort of a larger step forward.

00:34:11   Like, well, the batteries aren't really getting

00:34:12   that much better, but, you know,

00:34:15   some in the back of some designers mind,

00:34:17   hardware designer or Johnny Iver both,

00:34:18   they have the idea of, well, our components keep getting,

00:34:21   but you know, our screens,

00:34:22   even though we went to the retina 5K iMac screen,

00:34:24   it's actually lower power than the previous screen.

00:34:26   Eventually they're gonna get decent OLEDs in these things

00:34:29   and you'll have an even bigger drop,

00:34:30   especially if they make the entire interface black.

00:34:34   Lots of the components are going down in power usage,

00:34:37   but somebody has in the back of their mind,

00:34:39   can I just rip everything out of this freaking notebook

00:34:41   and just have like a tiny little two centimeter square

00:34:46   that's the whole laptop

00:34:47   and then just fill the rest of it with battery?

00:34:49   Like what can I pull out of this laptop?

00:34:51   Well, you gotta have a keyboard

00:34:52   and you gotta have a screen.

00:34:53   All right, what else can I remove?

00:34:54   Can I remove everything except, can I remove all the ports?

00:34:56   No, you can't remove all the ports.

00:34:58   We need some place for power to go in.

00:34:59   I mean, something like,

00:35:00   how about I remove every single interface

00:35:02   except for one low power USB three thing.

00:35:05   I can get rid of, you know,

00:35:07   If they could have rid of, I think they got rid of audio in.

00:35:09   I know they have like the hybrid cable

00:35:11   that like the headphone jack is the input thing,

00:35:13   but I'm still like--

00:35:14   - Well, those don't offer audio in anymore.

00:35:16   Sorry, I should clarify on most hardware.

00:35:20   The iMac does have audio in,

00:35:21   the Mac mini has audio in, but the laptops,

00:35:23   as far as I know, the laptops don't have audio in anymore.

00:35:26   - I mean, that's not really probably a power saving,

00:35:28   so maybe like with a chip set or whatever,

00:35:30   like they just, they want them to be like the phone,

00:35:32   where it's mostly just a giant battery

00:35:34   in a case with a screen, and then off to the side,

00:35:36   there's this tiny little thing

00:35:37   that is the entire computer.

00:35:38   And if you look inside the MacBook Air,

00:35:39   as you watch the battery slowly eat the rest of the computer

00:35:41   over the past few years.

00:35:44   It used to be like a board inside there,

00:35:45   and then the board became like two little skinny things.

00:35:47   And it's just like, it's running away

00:35:49   from this giant battery that's eating it.

00:35:50   And one of the ways you get power savings back

00:35:52   is just to be merciless about what you remove.

00:35:55   I guess we should probably skip to that follow-up item

00:35:58   because it's related to this.

00:35:59   Troy Gall wrote in with some reasons of like,

00:36:01   I kept asking for why, what do I get with one port

00:36:04   that I don't have with two?

00:36:05   Why would they do this?

00:36:06   is there a reason that we can think of?

00:36:08   And he's got two guesses for reasons.

00:36:10   One is related to power,

00:36:12   but in a slightly different way that I was talking about.

00:36:13   I'm like, well, maybe two means you can't have,

00:36:16   like maybe ripping out the port

00:36:17   means ripping out the supporting chip set

00:36:19   because the one port is like, I don't know.

00:36:20   If there's some large gain

00:36:22   that's not just like incremental,

00:36:24   like it's, you don't need supporting machinery

00:36:26   behind it to have two ports.

00:36:27   The one port wires directly into the thing

00:36:29   without a control.

00:36:30   Who knows? I don't know what the details might be, but.

00:36:31   - No, it isn't about,

00:36:32   it is almost certainly not about controller logic inside.

00:36:35   it's about the amount of power that port could draw

00:36:38   by its own spec.

00:36:39   So if you have like FireWire devices,

00:36:41   I think could draw like 10 Watts or something like that.

00:36:43   So a new USB is, I think, I don't know, sometimes.

00:36:47   So anyway, it's like, if you have multiple ports,

00:36:49   you have to, the laptop has to be able to supply

00:36:52   the maximum power draw to each of those ports.

00:36:54   So it has to have a power supply big enough and so on.

00:36:56   - That just shortens the battery life

00:36:57   if you have something plugged in.

00:36:58   Like I don't think they're optimizing

00:36:59   for the everything plugged in battery life.

00:37:01   I think they're optimizing for the battery life

00:37:03   with nothing plugged in.

00:37:04   Like that's the life they're gonna, you know,

00:37:05   whenever they show battery life,

00:37:07   they're not saying with a bunch of drive-sucking,

00:37:09   self-powered hard drives,

00:37:12   spinning hard drives sucking power from all your ports.

00:37:13   Like it's always with nothing.

00:37:15   So I'm thinking is there some passive power,

00:37:17   you know, that you need other components?

00:37:18   Anyway.

00:37:19   - No, I think it's more like, you know,

00:37:21   'cause if you have the port that can potentially

00:37:23   draw 10 watts or whatever,

00:37:25   then every, like the power supply circuitry

00:37:27   has to be bigger, the power brick has to be bigger,

00:37:29   the total power draw and thermal output of the laptop

00:37:32   has to be best to be higher.

00:37:34   - Well, the peak power, but yeah,

00:37:35   there could be some passive loss

00:37:37   to the larger supply or whatever.

00:37:39   But his angle on it is that if you had two ports,

00:37:41   he thinks that they would both have to support charging.

00:37:43   Like if you're gonna charge through it,

00:37:44   and then maybe that would be more complicated electrically,

00:37:47   and that would be the complication.

00:37:48   I would imagine that if they have two ports,

00:37:50   they would be perfectly fine,

00:37:51   so you can only charge through one of them.

00:37:52   It would be the one with the little like chargey symbol,

00:37:55   silk-screened on it and laser etched stuff

00:37:57   that no human being could see

00:37:58   without being two inches away.

00:38:01   And his second thought was there's no room for more ports

00:38:04   because the keyboard goes edge to edge

00:38:06   and you need space for the key travel

00:38:07   and they're putting the port in the one place

00:38:09   where it can be, where it doesn't interfere

00:38:11   with the keys going up and down

00:38:11   but the thing's so damn thin.

00:38:14   That doesn't explain why you can't have one on one side

00:38:16   and one on the other.

00:38:17   And the headphone port, I feel like you could shove that.

00:38:21   From looking from these fake mockups of a product

00:38:23   that doesn't actually exist,

00:38:24   it seemed to me that there was room on both sides

00:38:27   to have one USB on both sides

00:38:29   and still find a place to wedge in the thing.

00:38:31   But like, you're not constrained by a predefined case

00:38:36   or a mock-up rendering.

00:38:37   You get to design the product.

00:38:38   If you're gonna go keyboard edge to edge, fine,

00:38:40   like move it down an extra three millimeters

00:38:42   to make room for the, you know.

00:38:44   Anyway, I don't find any of these reasons

00:38:46   particularly convincing, but they're at least new theories.

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00:41:21   That's igloosoftware.com/atp.

00:41:24   Thanks a lot.

00:41:25   So we're going a little long on the follow up,

00:41:27   but I wanna try to trudge through all the 12 inch air stuff.

00:41:31   - Episode 100, all follow up.

00:41:34   - Yep, it probably will be, and that would be fitting.

00:41:37   So do you wanna talk, I think this is mostly aimed at Jon,

00:41:42   do you wanna talk about what Phil Compton said to us?

00:41:45   - There's a couple people who talked about

00:41:48   the rumored 12 inch air as he relates to Chromebooks,

00:41:52   and you mentioned it, wasn't you Casey in the last show

00:41:54   Talking about Chromebooks?

00:41:56   Well, anyway, the whole idea with Chromebooks,

00:41:57   people will know, it's like a laptop that, you know,

00:42:00   it's like the network computer all over again.

00:42:02   It's a laptop where,

00:42:04   the laptop itself doesn't have anything important on it.

00:42:06   Everything's on the cloud.

00:42:07   The laptop is just a local cache

00:42:09   and it's super simple and super cheap

00:42:10   and they like them for education.

00:42:11   And it's like, oh, if your Chromebook

00:42:13   just falls off a cliff, whatever, get a new one,

00:42:15   plug it in, sign in with your Google account,

00:42:16   all your crap's there again.

00:42:18   It's a really great idea.

00:42:19   The videos that Google has shown

00:42:22   when they presented it or whatever,

00:42:23   Like it's essentially the future of computing and Apple

00:42:25   and Google is there first and it's lonely there

00:42:29   because it's not ready yet, right?

00:42:32   Yeah, so, but there's two angles in the Chromebook.

00:42:35   People like the Chromebooks for the elimination

00:42:38   of all the headaches that come with like owning

00:42:40   and maintaining a computer to try and move it more

00:42:42   towards being a disposable type thing,

00:42:44   which obviously is the opposite

00:42:45   of the way Apple designs thing more or less.

00:42:47   And the second aspect of it is they're so damn cheap.

00:42:49   Like remember the netbooks from a long time ago.

00:42:51   Oh, everyone loves netbooks.

00:42:51   Everyone loves cheap things.

00:42:52   Of course, everyone is like, "Apple needs to make cheap things to compete."

00:42:56   But that's not how Apple competes.

00:42:57   We went around in circles about that.

00:42:59   But the network book and the Chromebook seems to be bringing the issue back again.

00:43:03   I think the people who learned the lesson in the netbook error are fine, but now there's

00:43:06   a new crap of people who either weren't around during the network thing or have forgotten

00:43:13   who are saying Apple needs to come out with a $300 laptop.

00:43:17   If they don't, the Chromebook is going to eat their lunch and they're going to take

00:43:20   over the education market because schools are cheap and they want cheap laptops and

00:43:24   you know the Chromebook is less expensive than iPads even.

00:43:27   Even if you're buying iPad 2s and all this stuff.

00:43:30   So there's a lot of angles for when you see a small thin light thing you're like oh that's

00:43:36   gonna be Apple's competition with the Chromebook and every time someone tweeted that at me

00:43:40   or sent feedback related to Chromebooks all I could think was Apple's gonna compete with

00:43:44   the Chromebook with a product that's four times the price or maybe ten times the price.

00:43:49   We didn't talk about pricing of the rumored fictional product here, but do any of us expect

00:43:53   this laptop to be less than around $1,000?

00:43:56   Yeah, I mean Chromebooks start at about $200, right?

00:44:00   Right so it says like it's 5x the price.

00:44:03   I'm guessing $1,500 start.

00:44:05   Right, and it's the other thing, it could be even more expensive because of the thinness,

00:44:09   that's just not how Apple works.

00:44:11   I don't think anybody thinks this rumored 12 inch Air is going to be some super duper

00:44:15   cheap thing.

00:44:16   Maybe it'll be cheaper than the current Airs, somehow, possibly, because of all the crap

00:44:20   they rip out of it.

00:44:21   That's conceivable.

00:44:22   But is it going to be $200?

00:44:24   No!

00:44:25   And so it seems crazy to me to talk about competing with Chromebooks with a product

00:44:29   that's not in its price range.

00:44:32   No matter what you think about competition, it's very...

00:44:36   There's no sense in saying this competes...

00:44:38   It's like saying that my Honda Accord competes with a Ferrari.

00:44:41   They don't.

00:44:42   There is no competition between them.

00:44:43   You can't entertain thoughts of competition between them.

00:44:45   They're in a different market.

00:44:46   And no matter how much you think that, you know, Ferrari really needs to answer for the

00:44:50   new Honda Accord because the Honda Accord is going to eat up their market for like,

00:44:54   no, they don't.

00:44:55   They're just, what do you mean answer with us?

00:44:57   Actually, the new Ferrari, I think that the new Ferrari is Ferrari's answer to the new

00:45:01   Honda Odyssey.

00:45:02   How is it Ferrari's answer to the new Honda Odyssey?

00:45:04   Well, I know they're not, the pricing is, you know, multiples of each other, but I really

00:45:07   do think that's their answer.

00:45:08   No, they're not comparable.

00:45:10   So anytime I see the word Chromebook in relation to this thing, again, it's a rumored thing.

00:45:14   I don't know. Maybe it will cost $200. That'd be great. I'll buy three of them, right?

00:45:18   But I really don't really don't think it will you wouldn't even buy one you complain about the price

00:45:22   Yeah, I don't like laptops, but

00:45:24   See there's no there's no way until there is at least a pricing rumor about this. I don't think it's important

00:45:31   I do think that

00:45:32   Apple's competition is the idea behind the Chromebook and

00:45:35   Perhaps I think I think this was Casey was it perhaps like their answer to this?

00:45:40   Yeah, you were going the whole thing of like, oh we don't need ports anymore

00:45:43   We need to remove complications everything can be wireless or whatever that is eventually the future

00:45:48   It's just not quite the present and people buy computers

00:45:50   They want to use in the present and so in the present you can remove every single port from a laptop except for USB

00:45:54   We totally can do that. And by the way, someone just an hour ago tweeted us a picture showing us

00:45:59   USB type-c with DisplayPort going over it. I don't know how many times we have to reiterate this. Yes

00:46:04   It's not it's not a made-up crazy Apple thing. You can send DisplayPort over USB type-c connectors

00:46:09   It's part of the spec it is not and it can power retina 5k

00:46:12   It has enough bandwidth for that right like and just look up the spec

00:46:16   I will try to put in the show notes

00:46:18   They show you the pin outs to show you what goes over those pins. This is not a crazy proprietary Apple is and this is an

00:46:22   Industry-wide spec it is not speculation that we're saying this is technically possible. It really is technically possible

00:46:27   It's a thing so you'll be buying products with it anyway

00:46:29   I was I don't know why people keep sending us these things to show us the display can go over

00:46:33   Yeah, we know we said so

00:46:35   It's baffling to me

00:46:39   So, I do think Apple has to eventually have an answer to the idea behind the Chromebook,

00:46:46   but I think it's also, for now, it is trying to field products that fulfill needs, that

00:46:52   do the Apple thing.

00:46:53   They're premium products, they charge a premium for them, they make a lot of money, they're

00:46:56   fancy, they're nice.

00:46:57   Hardware-wise, we're all talking about here.

00:47:01   And thus far, Apple has not shown any interest in trying to compete with the various other

00:47:06   companies that sell similar devices for massively lower prices and I don't see

00:47:12   anything in this rumor that makes me think it's gonna be massively lower.

00:47:15   Again I can't entertain the idea that the entry-level model could have a three

00:47:18   digit price. I can't entertain the idea that it'll be 200 bucks. I don't think

00:47:23   it'll be anywhere near that cheap. I think you're both right that it'll be

00:47:26   around abouts of $1,000 if it's what we think it is which by the way obviously

00:47:31   it may be totally different but if it's less than $1,000 I will be stunned.

00:47:36   - I think also, I saw a few people make the comment

00:47:41   that Apple has to respond Chromebook style

00:47:44   because Chromebooks are apparently selling well

00:47:46   to education.

00:47:48   First of all, I think Apple's answer to the Chromebook

00:47:51   is the iPad.

00:47:52   I don't think it's a cheap laptop.

00:47:54   - And by the way, iPads can push up into $1,000

00:47:57   if you buy the fancy model, so it's not like iPads

00:48:00   are 200 bucks either.

00:48:01   - Oh yeah, and certainly the education market's buying

00:48:04   you know, the three and $400 models,

00:48:05   but still, you know, and that's still more than a Chromebook

00:48:09   and in many ways harder to manage for a big, you know,

00:48:12   school or fleet type use, but anyway.

00:48:15   I don't think Apple holds the educational relationship

00:48:18   as some kind of thing that they cannot ever lose.

00:48:20   Education customers are, you know,

00:48:23   just like big enterprise customers,

00:48:25   there is, there's a lot of buyers out there

00:48:28   that will buy the stuff,

00:48:29   but they're extremely hard to get,

00:48:31   And education, it's like enterprise but with no money.

00:48:35   Like there is money in education,

00:48:37   but not nearly as much as anybody wants.

00:48:41   - You can't fleece them like IBM will do

00:48:43   for its corporate customers by charging them insane fees

00:48:47   because they know it may look crazy,

00:48:48   but they have so much money, they'll pay it.

00:48:50   - Right, and many of, you know, the biggest buyers

00:48:53   are gonna be very high needs, high maintenance customers

00:48:57   that like you're gonna have to come to them on their terms

00:49:00   and make concessions to them because they have to buy

00:49:05   a couple hundred or thousand of these things

00:49:07   and then maintain them over time

00:49:08   and justify that to all these different committees

00:49:10   and funders and work within the grants and everything.

00:49:13   There's so, so much complexity in that system

00:49:17   and it's so hard to get and in the end,

00:49:19   there's not a whole lot of money to be made there.

00:49:20   And so, I don't think Apple looks at that

00:49:24   as something that they must keep.

00:49:26   I think education should be looked at

00:49:28   just like any other big enterprise customer

00:49:31   where they'll be happy to serve them,

00:49:34   but only on Apple's terms,

00:49:36   and they're not that scared to lose them.

00:49:39   And you can look at it and say,

00:49:40   well, you wanna catch kids early,

00:49:42   but I think the era of kids having their

00:49:47   primary computing experience at school

00:49:51   is certainly not going away,

00:49:53   and probably will never totally go away

00:49:54   from many demographics and kids,

00:49:57   But I think the relevance of that is being greatly reduced

00:50:00   by personal devices, smartphones,

00:50:03   iPod touches, and iPads at home.

00:50:05   - I was gonna say, Apple doesn't necessarily

00:50:07   have to be too concerned with keeping the education market.

00:50:11   It just has to be concerned with keeping the kids.

00:50:14   I think it's doing pretty well at keeping the kids

00:50:16   because, like you said, the kids have contact

00:50:19   with computing devices.

00:50:21   Computing is everywhere now.

00:50:23   It's not just in a school or work.

00:50:24   It's a part of life, right?

00:50:25   So as long as Apple keeps the kids, you're OK.

00:50:27   Now there is a danger here because like,

00:50:31   if Chromebooks ever did become pervasive,

00:50:33   which I don't think that Chromebooks are doing well,

00:50:36   but I don't think it's like they're wiping Apple out

00:50:38   of education.

00:50:38   But if they do become pervasive, Microsoft

00:50:41   hates it because all the kids are

00:50:42   going to be doing all their work in Google Docs instead of Word.

00:50:45   And Apple should hate it because kids

00:50:47   will become acclimated to the Google ecosystem, which

00:50:49   does not involve Apple.

00:50:50   And the Google ecosystem in terms of the cloud stuff

00:50:52   is actually pretty damn good.

00:50:53   Google, if you're email, Google, if you share documents,

00:50:55   Like that's Google's thing, a bunch of web applications,

00:50:58   lowest common denominator, works everywhere,

00:51:00   all your crap synced.

00:51:01   If kids get used to that, it's a short jump from there

00:51:04   to a Google phone where all your stuff is right.

00:51:05   So, you know, keeping the kids,

00:51:09   part of keeping the kids is keeping a toehold in education.

00:51:11   So far in sort of the jobs to error,

00:51:14   it seems like Apple's approach to education has been,

00:51:17   we in, if you are a prestige school,

00:51:19   if there's gonna be a news story

00:51:21   about your school getting fancy stuff,

00:51:22   we want to have our stuff in the prestige school.

00:51:24   And the prestige school is not necessarily

00:51:25   the rich kids school, but it's the school that's storyworthy.

00:51:28   Is it a school that's up and coming,

00:51:30   where it's doing much better now?

00:51:31   Is it a school that got a big grant?

00:51:33   Is it a school, you know, like, you want it to be a story.

00:51:36   You want it to be like the important ones.

00:51:38   And then it should be significant.

00:51:40   The kids in that school and teachers in that school

00:51:42   should feel lucky to have Apple hardware

00:51:44   because it's fancy and shiny, nice and expensive.

00:51:46   And that's where Apple seems to be in education these days.

00:51:50   It's not so much bending over backwards,

00:51:53   with the possible exception of keeping the iPad 2 around

00:51:55   for a long time, but they're not doing stuff like, remember, they used to do the EMAC and

00:51:59   the various Macs that were made just for education.

00:52:01   Those were all pretty short-lived, though.

00:52:03   Well, but they would do that.

00:52:04   They would say, "We're going to make a model of Mac that is only for education, and it's

00:52:07   going to make compromises that work for education."

00:52:09   Usually those compromises were ways to make it cheaper.

00:52:12   Sometimes it would be an education-only version.

00:52:13   I think they still have that on.

00:52:14   Right, like they're super cheap iMac and stuff.

00:52:17   Right, or a keeper on a model just for education.

00:52:19   So they still are doing stuff for the market, but I think the days are gone where they design

00:52:22   and like the giant tooth, the big molar,

00:52:25   you can look up what that is and put it in the show notes,

00:52:27   a computer that only ever sold to education.

00:52:30   Most of those were terrible by the way,

00:52:32   but they existed and Apple's not doing that anymore.

00:52:34   There's not a computer with a different name,

00:52:37   like it's not an iMac, it's not a Mac mini or whatever,

00:52:39   a different name that you can't buy

00:52:40   unless you're in education.

00:52:41   So Apple is out of that business.

00:52:44   - It's funny you mention education in Apple

00:52:46   because right around the time we moved to Richmond,

00:52:48   one of the surrounding counties,

00:52:49   they were using iBooks and issuing,

00:52:52   I believe all middle schoolers and high schoolers iBooks.

00:52:55   And they decided it was cheaper and better to go with Dells

00:53:00   and they've been using Dells ever since.

00:53:03   And you may have heard of this.

00:53:05   Oh, I did.

00:53:07   This was the area in which we live.

00:53:08   It made national news because they were selling these

00:53:11   like two or three, no four year old iBooks for 50 bucks

00:53:14   at the NASCAR track in downtown Richmond.

00:53:16   And there were actually like stampedes

00:53:19   trying to beat each other up to get to the front of the line

00:53:23   so you could buy a $50 four-year-old iBook.

00:53:25   And that was right around where we live.

00:53:28   And now they've been using Dells for years

00:53:29   and they're pieces of crap.

00:53:30   Although to be fair, these iBooks,

00:53:31   these iBooks were falling apart

00:53:33   by the time they were done with them.

00:53:34   - Yeah, it's like buying a used police car.

00:53:38   Like, there's a reason why used police cars

00:53:41   usually just become the crappiest taxis

00:53:44   for the crappiest taxi services in the world.

00:53:48   these devices are in such constant heavy use

00:53:52   for those four years, like you do not want them afterwards.

00:53:56   Although to be fair to those $50 iBooks,

00:53:59   can you imagine a stampede for four year old PCs

00:54:02   at any price?

00:54:03   - No, definitely not.

00:54:04   - Yeah, 'cause it's not a fashion item,

00:54:06   it doesn't have the prestige associated,

00:54:08   even an out of date technology thing

00:54:11   still has the fashion cache, so people are interested

00:54:13   and they feel like it's a steal at 50 bucks.

00:54:16   If you want to make the foreign listeners, the non-US listeners, feel even more that

00:54:21   we live in a third world country, we can describe the other common phenomenon for technologies

00:54:25   in schools.

00:54:27   Technologies or tissues and paper towels, which is there's no money in the budget for

00:54:30   it at all.

00:54:31   The only way your school is ever going to get any kind of technology or paper towels

00:54:36   or tissues for the kids to use is the parents themselves, or the parent-teacher's association

00:54:42   or some other like, you know, organization thing will raise money and the parents will

00:54:46   all pay for the computers for their kids' school.

00:54:50   That only works for all the parents are rich.

00:54:51   So you can guess how many people's schools have max in them.

00:54:55   It's only the schools that are in districts where, and even in the districts with rich

00:54:58   people, even those districts can't pass laws to raise taxes enough to pay for anything

00:55:02   for their schools, barely can keep the buildings up, you know, barely can pay the teachers

00:55:07   their meager salaries, can't afford any computers, can't, if you want your classroom to have

00:55:11   paper towels, napkins, or tissues, you also have to pay for those and do drives to put

00:55:15   around. This is in their rich neighborhoods. That's the state of education in our country.

00:55:18   That's absolutely true. When I went to high school, it was in Fairfield County, Connecticut,

00:55:22   which at the time as a county was the single most affluent county in the entire country,

00:55:27   because they had a whole bunch of like silly rich superstars that are that instead of living

00:55:33   in New York, they'd live in Fairfield County. Now, the particular town I lived in was, I mean,

00:55:38   I guess reasonably affluent, but not nothing remarkable.

00:55:41   And every spring without fail come about March or so all of our Xerox paper,

00:55:46   our copy machine paper,

00:55:50   it was perforated about two thirds of the way down and then again in half.

00:55:55   And at the bottom it said Danbury hospital radiology department.

00:55:59   Because despite the fact that we lived in the most affluent County in the entire

00:56:04   country,

00:56:05   All of the people that lived in the particular town we lived in didn't want to pay enough money to the schools

00:56:10   So that we had copy paper for the entire year and we needed to accept donations of like crappy leftover

00:56:17   Perforated copy paper from the local hospital. Oh my god, that's so sad. Oh goodness. All right

00:56:24   What other follow-up do we have one last note? This is from Oliver agar agar

00:56:29   apologies Oliver

00:56:32   He had tweeted at the three of us

00:56:34   It's pretty clear now that both Thunderbolt and lightning are

00:56:37   They're going to be the shortest live ports ever. I don't I don't know if I agree with that. It's certainly possible

00:56:44   But I I don't see lightning going away anytime soon. I think Thunderbolt is more likely to go away

00:56:51   But I'm still skeptical that that's gonna be the case

00:56:55   What do you guys think?

00:56:56   I think thunderbolts gonna last just as long as firewire did just because it'll be sticking out the back of that Mac Pro until Apple

00:57:01   Stops making that computer. Oh

00:57:03   Like it doesn't mean it's gonna like

00:57:05   Thunderbolt sure totally go away from the MacBook Air

00:57:08   They want because like it can go away from the MacBook Air because the innovation of Thunderbolt that was a simplification

00:57:14   Hey display, you know USB all over one port

00:57:17   But if USB 3 can do all that too then right

00:57:20   Thunderbolt port gone at the very least from the small laptops probably also from the big ones because what you know

00:57:26   It's only for basically high speed storage

00:57:28   like it's kind of an aberration that thunderbolt ended up being on sort of the low-end laptops because it was like

00:57:33   We're not so much into the high-speed storage part.

00:57:36   We like the idea that there's one connector that you can carry all this sort of stuff

00:57:39   over.

00:57:40   You can carry the display over it, you can carry it, you can do an Ethernet adapter.

00:57:42   It was kind of a shame that you could do each one of those things but you had to swap your

00:57:46   stupid adapters and crap like that.

00:57:47   But you could plug it into the Thunderbolt display and get a full complement of ports

00:57:51   through one connector.

00:57:52   I see no reason that USB 3.0 can't usurp that.

00:57:56   And so then the only reason left to have Thunderbolt is, alright, well actually it's a super high-speed

00:57:59   thing and of course the Mac Pro has a million Thunderbolt ports on it.

00:58:03   continue to have them, the Thunderbolt spec will continue to get revised, I think there

00:58:08   will still be Thunderbolt ports all over those things.

00:58:11   So I don't think Thunderbolt is going away, and Lightning I definitely don't think is

00:58:14   going away because Lightning is still smaller and more importantly thinner than I would

00:58:18   imagine potentially more durable than USB 3.

00:58:21   I don't think Apple is going to go through its entire iOS line and say "Oh, USB 3 Type

00:58:25   C is here, we can get rid of this silly Lightning thing and change it."

00:58:28   Nope, Lightning is going to be with us for a long time, at least as long as I think the

00:58:32   a 30 pin connector was for this.

00:58:34   - Yeah, I totally agree.

00:58:36   I don't see, you know, Thunderbolt I think is

00:58:39   just like Firewire 800, where it's gonna be

00:58:41   on the highest end pro products and that's about it.

00:58:44   It does have that advantage, as you said,

00:58:46   of because it is really just PCI express over a cable,

00:58:50   you can offer like direct full speed,

00:58:53   like bus connected versions of the other ports

00:58:56   without a big performance penalty or translation penalty

00:58:59   or anything like that.

00:59:00   but all those other ports it's offering

00:59:03   are getting less relevant over time

00:59:05   and less necessary over time.

00:59:07   So I think the biggest justification

00:59:10   for Thunderbolt in two years

00:59:13   is not even gonna be those PCI card case boxes

00:59:17   that you can use an old PCI video card,

00:59:19   video processing card in or anything.

00:59:22   I don't think that's it at all.

00:59:22   I think Thunderbolt in two years is gonna be looked at

00:59:27   only as the highest speed port for external SSD arrays

00:59:32   and disk arrays, like that's what it's mainly for.

00:59:35   And I think that's probably mostly what it's used

00:59:37   for today even, but I think that's gonna be like

00:59:41   its mainstay and everything else is gonna go to wireless

00:59:46   or USB three.

00:59:47   - And Thunderbolt will have to keep scaling up

00:59:49   because like, you know, I always imagined the Mac pros

00:59:52   with these Thunderbolt things having something to do

00:59:53   with video stuff, and 4K video eventually

00:59:57   becomes more common, like you just cranked up

00:59:59   your bandwidth requirements again.

01:00:00   So like these giant arrays of super fast storage,

01:00:03   and the only way you can let that storage run

01:00:06   at the full speed that it's capable of running at

01:00:07   and get the data into your computer

01:00:09   is either to have it inside your computer,

01:00:10   which Apple doesn't make any of those anymore,

01:00:12   or it's gotta be over the fastest possible external bus,

01:00:14   and right now, that is, even with USB 3,

01:00:17   Thunderbolt is still faster, and I imagine

01:00:19   they'll just keep making it faster and faster,

01:00:20   and it'll become more and more confined

01:00:22   the people who have insane data rates that are necessary to do like you know

01:00:27   uncompressed 5k video for Hollywood movies or God knows what they're doing

01:00:30   with these Mac Pros these days. And those enclosures cost more than a

01:00:35   MacBook Pro. Yeah, it's not the realm of regular people. I'm trying to

01:00:40   think is there any reason for a Thunderbolt to be to remain on like the

01:00:44   15-inch MacBook Pro or anything? Well it is the highest end laptop in the

01:00:48   lineup and there's always going to be demand from people who try to do

01:00:52   Pro work on laptops on the go or on site or on set or whatever.

01:00:56   So there's always going to be demand.

01:00:58   Whether they choose to address that demand is not a guaranteed thing.

01:01:03   They might choose at some point, "You know what?

01:01:05   We're done with that."

01:01:06   Just like how many things died with the 17-inch MacBook Pro.

01:01:09   I think the 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro I think is going to be the last Apple laptop with

01:01:20   Thunderbolt, but I don't know how soon it's going to come.

01:01:23   If I had to guess, I would say maybe two more years before it's relegated to only a handful

01:01:29   of models in the lineup.

01:01:31   I hope that they keep it around for at least a couple more years because I know we just

01:01:35   finally got done with the transition at work where every conference room has a mini display

01:01:40   board, a.k.a.

01:01:41   Display port, a.k.a.

01:01:42   Thunderbolt, to VGA connector so that every Mac that comes into the room can hook up to

01:01:48   the cruddy projector that's in the room.

01:01:49   It used to be that first everyone who had a Mac

01:01:52   had one of the adapters

01:01:53   and they'd write their names on them in a marker,

01:01:55   but then they'd lose them

01:01:56   and then you'd leave one in the conference room

01:01:57   and now they're like chained to the conference room.

01:01:58   So every conference room has one.

01:02:01   And if Apple drops Thunderbolt from their entire line,

01:02:03   it'll be like, well, we have,

01:02:04   every conference room has an adapter

01:02:05   that has no place to be plugged into any of the new Macs.

01:02:08   And that will be sad

01:02:09   because it seems like we haven't had enough time

01:02:11   where anyone with a Mac can go into any conference room

01:02:14   and plug into the projector.

01:02:15   Then I feel like we need to have a couple more years

01:02:18   before we have to redo all the adapters again.

01:02:21   - Yeah, 'cause they could put it over USB 3

01:02:23   in DisplayPort mode, the alternate mode,

01:02:26   which we talked about a few minutes ago.

01:02:28   And yeah, it's just another $30 adapter at the Apple Store.

01:02:31   - Right.

01:02:32   - Just this big, daily chain of that going

01:02:33   into a mini Thunderbolt to the HDMI or to DVI to VGA.

01:02:38   You'll have like this five adapter long chain.

01:02:41   - Sometimes it's VGA, sometimes it's HDMI.

01:02:43   That's not the problem.

01:02:44   It's the end that connects into the Mac that's the problem.

01:02:46   So it'd be nice to have some stability in that

01:02:49   for a little while longer,

01:02:49   because that's the other thing Thunderbolt does.

01:02:51   It's like, well, Thunderbolt,

01:02:52   I don't need high-speed stuff.

01:02:53   I don't care that I multiplex multiple things over it.

01:02:56   Then if you don't care about any of those things

01:02:58   and you look at the Thunderbolt port,

01:02:59   it's like, oh, that's just my external display port.

01:03:00   Like I think, I imagine most of the people in my company

01:03:03   who have Macs consider that their display port,

01:03:05   like this is where I hook up external monitors,

01:03:07   not knowing all the other things that that one port can do.

01:03:09   - Right.

01:03:10   And Apple's answer might be like,

01:03:12   for a big part of the line, it might just be,

01:03:14   Well, use AirPlay and have an Apple TV,

01:03:17   which of course is comical.

01:03:18   - There's lots of AirPlay enabled projectors.

01:03:21   - Right, exactly.

01:03:22   Anyway, our final sponsor this week is Fracture.

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01:05:51   - Yeah, I actually have a, I think four of them

01:05:55   on their way.

01:05:55   I copied your idea, but instead of apps,

01:05:58   I did it with the shows that I've been on,

01:06:01   that I've been around regularly.

01:06:03   And then I got that picture of Aaron and Declan

01:06:07   from the hospital that I really like printed.

01:06:09   And so they are on their way

01:06:11   and I'm very excited about it.

01:06:12   So definitely check them out.

01:06:13   - No feed icons?

01:06:15   - No feed icons.

01:06:16   I actually, the funny thing is as you were doing that read,

01:06:19   it occurred to me,

01:06:20   I don't know why I didn't put that in that order,

01:06:23   put fast text in that order.

01:06:24   Like that probably speaks poorly

01:06:26   to what I think about fast text these days.

01:06:29   - That's sad.

01:06:29   - Yeah, I know that is sad.

01:06:30   Actually, I'm a little upset with myself, but anyway.

01:06:33   - Well, use code ATP15 to go order one now.

01:06:35   - Yeah, exactly.

01:06:36   So let's be done with follow-up,

01:06:39   and let's try to answer the question,

01:06:42   what can Apple do to fix the reliability,

01:06:46   what did you call it, Marco Nosedive?

01:06:48   - Oh God, we were still talking about this.

01:06:51   Can we please stop talking about it?

01:06:52   - We talked about the issue last time,

01:06:54   but we didn't get to like, okay,

01:06:56   so we agree that this is an issue.

01:06:58   We may disagree about whether things are worse now

01:07:00   than they've ever been or have been

01:07:02   in the past X number of years,

01:07:03   whatever value you want to pay for X's.

01:07:04   But I think we all agreed that regardless of the history

01:07:09   and whether the trend and what the direction the trend is,

01:07:11   the current state of things is not satisfactory

01:07:13   for the products and customers that Apple currently has.

01:07:16   That the customers are dissatisfied,

01:07:18   they have a lot of products,

01:07:19   they all interoperate with each other.

01:07:20   Marker is like multiplying factor of like,

01:07:22   your problem multiplied, probability of problem here

01:07:24   multiplied by the probability of problem there.

01:07:26   The probability that you have a problem somewhere

01:07:27   just goes up, it's not just additive

01:07:29   because of the way they all interact.

01:07:30   - By the way, I'm not clear on that math.

01:07:32   That might, it might actually be exponential or factorial.

01:07:36   Yeah, I'm not 100% confident on that math, go ahead.

01:07:38   - It's not additive.

01:07:39   - Right, yeah, it's not a linear additive progression.

01:07:42   It is some kind of curve.

01:07:43   - Yeah, you can do the probability thing.

01:07:45   So just like if you have one thing

01:07:46   and you have a certain probability,

01:07:47   it's up 50% of the time, you have 50% reliability, right?

01:07:50   Or you have two things, they both have 50% of the time,

01:07:52   now you need them both to be up

01:07:53   and you can figure it out with marbles and jars

01:07:57   and all that other stuff and it's not, anyway, it's worse.

01:07:59   But so we all agree that they have a reliability problem,

01:08:02   the need to address it.

01:08:03   I don't-- yeah, and we talked all last show

01:08:05   about arguing about whether this is a new problem,

01:08:07   a no problem, whatever.

01:08:08   But so the question is, how does Apple improve its reliability?

01:08:11   If you say, how does it fix its problem,

01:08:12   it sounds like there's something,

01:08:13   and then there's someday there's going to be a fix to it.

01:08:15   I think a better way to phrase it

01:08:16   is, how does Apple improve the reliability of its products,

01:08:19   specifically the software reliability?

01:08:22   Because the hardware does have issues,

01:08:23   but whenever hardware has an issue,

01:08:25   you always wonder if it's like a driver issue.

01:08:27   Or sometimes it's actually a hardware issue

01:08:28   where something is overheating, or some solder joints are bad,

01:08:31   or something like, but then sometimes,

01:08:33   I think the vast majority of the time,

01:08:34   it's like a driver issue,

01:08:36   or they just never quite get it working right over.

01:08:38   So what can Apple do to improve

01:08:42   the reliability of its products?

01:08:44   - We talked a little about this last step,

01:08:46   whatever episode it was,

01:08:48   in that they could either space out

01:08:51   the releases between OSs,

01:08:53   which I think we all pretty much agree

01:08:55   is never gonna happen, or just bite off less each time.

01:08:59   - I don't agree that it's never gonna happen,

01:09:00   'cause I could totally see them taking longer

01:09:03   between iOS releases or any iOS releases.

01:09:07   Not significantly longer, not like two years,

01:09:09   but I could see the Mac going to 18 months

01:09:11   and iOS going to like 14 or 15,

01:09:14   and it's slowly drifting through the year,

01:09:16   you know what I mean?

01:09:17   - Yeah, but they've set such a precedent,

01:09:20   and which they've broken precedents in the past,

01:09:22   but they've set such a precedent

01:09:24   of having a new version of iOS every fall.

01:09:28   And there was a time, not long ago,

01:09:30   when I think people, both nerds and non-nerds,

01:09:33   got really excited about that every fall.

01:09:36   Now, to be fair, they may not be so excited,

01:09:38   and we may not be so excited about that anymore,

01:09:41   and so maybe now is the time to break that precedent.

01:09:43   But I'm very skeptical they would do it on iOS,

01:09:47   and I'm fairly skeptical they would go less frequently

01:09:52   than every year on OS X.

01:09:54   But that's certainly one answer,

01:09:55   or just biting off less each time,

01:09:59   doing less new things and keeping yourself at a year release.

01:10:03   I mean, that's another option.

01:10:04   - Well, so the obvious option that's sitting in the notes

01:10:06   is, and the one that's been suggested by many people

01:10:08   and that I believe we talked about in the past many times,

01:10:10   is to go to what originally Intel dubbed the TikTok cadence

01:10:14   and which Apple has more or less de facto dubbed

01:10:18   the blank S cadence.

01:10:21   You get the four of the four S, the five of the five S,

01:10:23   and then who knows what they're gonna do with the six,

01:10:24   But the idea is you do a release that's your big release

01:10:29   with all your fancy crap in it.

01:10:31   And then the next one is pretty much the same

01:10:33   as the previous one, just modified in some way.

01:10:35   So after the four, you have the 4S.

01:10:37   The same hardware design, you tweak it,

01:10:39   you move the antennas around,

01:10:40   but it's not an entire redesign.

01:10:42   And in OS X, Apple did the same thing with Leopard.

01:10:46   That was their big release.

01:10:47   And then Snow Leopard is like,

01:10:49   "Well, it's like Leopard, but we just improved crap."

01:10:51   And then they had, what was it?

01:10:53   Lion, which is a big release, and they had Mountain Lion,

01:10:56   which was supposed to be the,

01:10:57   oh, it's like Lion, but we just improved some stuff.

01:10:59   They're off of that train in OS X

01:11:01   because Mavericks and Yosemite

01:11:02   are not related to each other in that way.

01:11:04   I mean, Yosemite's radically different than Mavericks was.

01:11:07   You could just say Mavericks was an in-between release,

01:11:09   and after Yosemite, they'll have one

01:11:10   that's like Yosemite but tweaked,

01:11:11   but it's very difficult to tell because without,

01:11:15   I mean, the names made it clear

01:11:16   with leopard, snow leopard, lion, mountain lion.

01:11:18   But then you could argue like,

01:11:20   well, did the contents of those releases

01:11:22   reflect the naming.

01:11:24   Only with Snow Leopard did Apple come out and say,

01:11:27   this is the no new features release,

01:11:29   all we're doing is frying stuff,

01:11:30   and even that was a lie because they added

01:11:31   tons of internal crap, and so.

01:11:33   - Right, it was a huge under the hood change,

01:11:35   just like it didn't look different to users.

01:11:37   - Right, and the big thing is if you don't add

01:11:40   user-facing features, even if you make tons

01:11:43   of under the hood changes, you can lie to people

01:11:45   and say no new features by basically saying

01:11:47   no new user-facing features, and if there's no new

01:11:50   user-facing features, your expectation is

01:11:52   that all they did was improve the functionality

01:11:55   of the existing user interface.

01:11:57   People weren't distracted by saying,

01:11:59   "Nevermind about making whatever work,

01:12:01   "make this new thing, or work better or whatever."

01:12:05   That is mostly, I think, a perception issue,

01:12:10   but I think trying to achieve that perception

01:12:14   from the customer base influences

01:12:18   the way the engineering organization operates.

01:12:21   Like in the same way that if you're trying to impress people

01:12:23   with gee whiz features, it influences how you assess

01:12:26   like risk reliability or whatever.

01:12:28   If you said straight out that like, oh,

01:12:30   this is gonna be a no new feature release,

01:12:32   that gives the engineering organization the freedom

01:12:34   to make different trade-offs internally

01:12:36   because there's no pressure to make the whizzy new feature

01:12:39   that's gonna be impressive in a demo

01:12:40   because you've already said like the public message

01:12:42   was no new features, so you don't have to do that.

01:12:45   And then you can make, when you make decisions about

01:12:47   what are we gonna refactor, what are we gonna rip out,

01:12:50   what giant new internal frameworks like GCD

01:12:52   we're gonna add, you can make all those decisions

01:12:54   without the pressure of having to serve

01:12:57   the external need to be impressive.

01:13:00   So it's kind of weird that the phone hardware

01:13:03   has been on that cadence for so long,

01:13:04   but the phone software has definitely

01:13:05   not been on that cadence, right?

01:13:07   - Well, and I would argue the hardware,

01:13:09   that's kind of a red herring.

01:13:10   Like, if you look at the 3S releases of iPhones

01:13:13   we've had so far, the 3GS, the 4S, and the 5S,

01:13:16   those were all major hardware releases.

01:13:18   the S minor revision designation is really only cosmetic

01:13:23   in all three of those cases.

01:13:26   - But it's not cosmetic because like,

01:13:28   it is cosmetic but it's like the cosmetics

01:13:32   are a huge part of the hardware design

01:13:35   because it's manufacturing lines,

01:13:37   it's the tooling, it's the materials,

01:13:39   it's the, you know, it's all that part of it

01:13:41   is a huge part of the product.

01:13:43   We think the product is like the tech specs of the CPU

01:13:46   or whatever and you're right, they made S things

01:13:47   is like the entire guts of this phone are different.

01:13:49   How is this like a minor revision?

01:13:51   There's like no shared part with the previous one.

01:13:53   But that's just the guts, right?

01:13:55   The big part of these phones is how do you make

01:13:57   a million little glass aluminum rectangle thingies

01:14:00   to the quality control that Apple wants?

01:14:02   And they put a huge investment into making

01:14:05   the production lines and the tools and everything,

01:14:08   the materials and the expertise to assemble these phones.

01:14:11   And they wanna get their bang for their buck out of that.

01:14:12   So they said, we're gonna make two years worth of phones

01:14:15   that use the same materials assembled

01:14:17   more or less the same way with only possibly minor external changes to, you know, like

01:14:21   again moving the antennas and the break points of the whatever, you know, construction techniques,

01:14:27   like whatever they're using or whatever, they want to get two years of value out of that.

01:14:30   CPU architecture?

01:14:31   Yeah, but like the silicon I think is easier because that's like, look, silicon revs when

01:14:35   it revs, right?

01:14:36   But that is a separate thing, but I'm saying the physical part of it is such a big part

01:14:40   of, you know, physical products that that's where they want to get the thing.

01:14:44   And like the fabs, like they don't have to make a new fab,

01:14:46   you know, except when they do die shrinks and stuff.

01:14:49   But it's like, once you have the fab up and running,

01:14:50   if you give it a different design,

01:14:52   then it just has a different design, right?

01:14:54   And if someone gets a new fab, like it's not part of,

01:14:56   it's not so much part of like the, you know,

01:14:58   the production line for a particular phone,

01:14:59   I think is more built for that phone

01:15:02   than a production line for a particular CPU

01:15:04   is built for that CPU.

01:15:06   - Yeah, but where they're having problems is not,

01:15:10   you know, oh, my 5S, you know,

01:15:12   the parts don't fit right together.

01:15:14   where they're having problems is in the software

01:15:18   and the low-level component interactions

01:15:20   and the services and stuff that like--

01:15:22   - But do you think that's hardware related?

01:15:24   Even the 64-bit transition,

01:15:25   I know there was problems with going from 33 to 64

01:15:28   and the 64-bit versions were buggy and stuff like that,

01:15:31   but I have to imagine,

01:15:33   you have to pay that transition some time.

01:15:34   They want it to be the first out of the gate.

01:15:36   I think they've reaped benefits of being the first,

01:15:38   but other than that,

01:15:39   I don't think any other silicon-based transition

01:15:42   has been particularly killer to them.

01:15:45   - No, no, I'm just saying that the idea

01:15:47   that the iPhone hardware is on this TikTok cadence,

01:15:51   I would say is mostly wrong.

01:15:52   It is on that TikTok cadence

01:15:56   in only the physical shell way,

01:16:00   but the parts inside seem to change

01:16:03   just as rapidly with every version of the iPhone

01:16:05   regardless of what letter is after its name.

01:16:07   - Yeah, no, I agree on that,

01:16:08   but I think the physical shell part

01:16:10   is a huge percentage of the hardware product.

01:16:13   And so that's why I don't think you can dismiss it

01:16:14   as like just cosmetics or just the visual thing,

01:16:17   because like when you think about

01:16:19   the physical hardware product,

01:16:20   it's almost as if the silicon part is like,

01:16:22   might as well be a separate thing.

01:16:23   Like you have a certain allotted amount of space

01:16:25   that you have to fit in,

01:16:26   but really the product designers of the iPhone

01:16:28   are designing a physical thing.

01:16:30   And by the way, this little silicon sliver

01:16:34   goes in whatever's left over when we put the battery in.

01:16:37   I mean, I don't know,

01:16:38   obviously it's not done that way or whatever,

01:16:39   If you look at the parts inside there, the phone is all everything else and then this little tiny thing

01:16:44   That's the actual phone phone

01:16:45   So I just see that I just see that as a separate cadence and that cadence has not so much been on the you know

01:16:53   Because like I think they just change everything every year like they get from year to year

01:16:56   They change like who's going to sell us the our radio chip this year like forget about the stuff

01:17:01   You know who's gonna sell the display controller this year or the battery controller like from year to year

01:17:05   It's just like whoever has the best chips with the best specs or if Apple needs to do custom designs itself

01:17:09   It just changes all the time on the phones and that hasn't been a you know a particular source of problems

01:17:16   I think if it is we don't have an insight to know like oh

01:17:19   This one phone had problems because of some flaky chip, and you didn't know about it

01:17:23   But next year Apple picked a different manufacturer and ironed out those problems

01:17:26   Or you know OS X or iOS was working around this problem and this buggy chipset

01:17:31   And you didn't know but it took a lot of engineering effort from Apple, but for OS X Apple you know

01:17:36   The Mac lines change much more slowly in a much more predictable way with you know

01:17:42   We kind of know is going into them with the Intel chipsets. We know it's available for them to go in to go into and

01:17:47   I think

01:17:49   For the OS 10 cadence like Apple is just again

01:17:52   You know chasing itself chasing its own tail of or as someone said like I was asking who they're chasing so they're chasing iOS

01:18:00   It's like well. That's just chasing yourself because they are iOS as well

01:18:02   They can make the decision of how to move along with two things and cadence to each other

01:18:07   But I think that type of cadence

01:18:09   formalized that type of kid is formalized and the reason you had to formalize it is like perception PR like if you formalize it

01:18:14   like Intel did Intel formalized it too because they

01:18:18   Recognized that if you just do this internally kind of sort of secretly

01:18:21   Then the marketing PR organization still has to come up with some reason why everything is awesome every single year

01:18:27   Whereas if you if you announce this is this is our new strategy for the foreseeable future

01:18:31   then only every other year do you have to impress

01:18:34   and everyone just gets used to,

01:18:36   oh, this is the year where they just make stuff work better.

01:18:38   And that becomes a story in itself and people like that.

01:18:41   Like customers like it and you don't get the bad stories

01:18:43   about, well, it was WWC,

01:18:45   but Apple didn't have any new features.

01:18:46   You just know this is a talk year or whatever.

01:18:48   I forget which one is the frigging ticker that talk.

01:18:49   - Yeah, I never, I always forget that every time.

01:18:52   - You know what I mean.

01:18:53   - It's like, it's always, it's the opposite of what you think

01:18:54   like the tick, I think the tick is the minor one.

01:18:57   - Yeah, and the talk is like the loud one

01:18:59   'cause it's, I don't know.

01:19:02   It doesn't make sense.

01:19:03   But anyway, a TikTok cadence,

01:19:05   Apple has considered and sort of played around with

01:19:10   in the past and continues to play around with arguably

01:19:13   on the non-silicon part of the hardware side.

01:19:16   I think that has the best sort of, you know,

01:19:21   the best features of any solution I can think of

01:19:23   other than the silly solution.

01:19:24   People will say, "Just be more careful and do stuff better."

01:19:27   Like that's not a solution, right?

01:19:29   because of the external effects of this,

01:19:32   because it is a thing that you announced to the world

01:19:35   and that announcement frees up things

01:19:39   inside your organization to act in a way

01:19:40   that they wouldn't be able to

01:19:42   if you tried to do it only as an internal change.

01:19:45   - You know, I read something earlier today

01:19:48   that I thought was really fascinating

01:19:50   for a bunch of reasons, but it's relevant here.

01:19:52   On Objective-CIO, they had an interview

01:19:54   with Andy Matuszak, I hope I pronounced that right,

01:19:58   I'm so sorry if I didn't.

01:19:59   Anyway, he used to work on UIKit of memory serves,

01:20:03   and they had an interview with him.

01:20:06   And the question that they asked was,

01:20:08   what effect do you think Swift will have

01:20:09   on Apple's framework APIs?

01:20:11   Do you expect something here in the short term?

01:20:13   And his answer was very interesting and relevant.

01:20:16   I don't actually have insider knowledge here,

01:20:18   so this is just speculation,

01:20:19   but I think it will be a long process.

01:20:21   At least when I was there,

01:20:23   the team spent the majority of their time

01:20:25   not maintaining and improving frameworks,

01:20:28   but really supporting market features

01:20:30   like new screen sizes or support for new hardware.

01:20:34   That's what takes most of the time.

01:20:36   So it will take a conscious decision

01:20:38   to do anything non-trivial,

01:20:39   and I don't see that forthcoming.

01:20:41   - Yeah, that actually mirrors what we heard

01:20:44   when somebody who works on iWork

01:20:46   wrote into us a couple of, maybe a month or two ago now,

01:20:49   who wrote in, 'cause we were talking about how,

01:20:52   we were complaining about iWork

01:20:54   and how there seems to be nobody working on it for years

01:20:56   and all of a sudden it gets rushed together.

01:20:57   And this person who wrote in basically said,

01:21:01   that's not the case, that instead,

01:21:03   the team is constantly working on it,

01:21:05   but that iWork always has to show off

01:21:07   the latest and greatest OS features

01:21:09   and directions of the company's sharing

01:21:12   and cloud platforms and everything.

01:21:13   And so they're constantly having to keep up

01:21:16   with the new marketing features

01:21:18   and the new directions of things like iCloud

01:21:21   instead of working on the core product functionality.

01:21:24   So it's actually very,

01:21:26   it sounds like this is possibly

01:21:29   infecting many parts of Apple.

01:21:30   And this is like, their market features

01:21:33   are moving so quickly and are so aggressive

01:21:36   that the rest of the engineering department

01:21:39   is maybe not able to keep up with things like quality

01:21:43   and long-term feature maintenance.

01:21:45   Is that, you think that's fair

01:21:46   based on what we've heard so far?

01:21:48   - Certainly sounds right to me.

01:21:49   - One thing that gives me hope here,

01:21:50   I mentioned this on the talk shows, I'll be quick,

01:21:52   but the watch is gonna be where Apple focuses

01:21:55   most of their PR for the next little while.

01:21:57   And we'll see how it goes, how long that lasts.

01:22:01   Maybe the watch is gonna be the primary focus

01:22:04   of Apple's marketing for the next year or two or three,

01:22:07   I don't know.

01:22:08   But I think that might help take some of the marketing burden

01:22:12   off of the other products.

01:22:14   And so maybe by focusing so much on the watch

01:22:17   and first watch kit stuff, and then later

01:22:20   on the native SDK and then the second generation

01:22:22   of the watch hardware, maybe that will be such the focus

01:22:25   of the marketing that just like the Mac was kind of

01:22:29   playing second fiddle when the iPhone came out,

01:22:31   maybe the watch will then make the iPhone and iPad

01:22:35   and the Mac now, it'll give them like a break

01:22:37   for a little while from being in the spotlight

01:22:39   and give them a chance to stabilize.

01:22:41   - Yeah, the whole idea of like having to support

01:22:44   new hardware factors or new APIs.

01:22:47   New APIs you have a little more control over

01:22:49   because you can just lay off on that.

01:22:51   But new hardware features, that kind of

01:22:53   gets back to what kind of company Apple is.

01:22:55   They're trying to make entire products that

01:23:00   have hardware and software integrated

01:23:02   and trying to improve both aspects of that.

01:23:04   And it seems like hardware is like, oh, I

01:23:07   want to make a nicer phone, a cooler laptop,

01:23:09   like I want to make a better product or whatever.

01:23:11   And that thing I was just talking about,

01:23:14   changing the chipsets you use for your radios

01:23:18   or the manufacturers for your power controller,

01:23:20   your display controller inside the phone.

01:23:22   You're just changing that all the time

01:23:23   because you wanna get the one that has the best features,

01:23:25   the lowest power, the best contract deal for parts,

01:23:28   and all these other things that change year over year.

01:23:31   I can imagine lots of time being spent supporting that.

01:23:35   It's like, can't you guys just pick one manufacturer

01:23:37   for like the, you know, whatever IO controller

01:23:39   for iOS devices and keep it for one or two years in a row

01:23:43   so that we can do something else or display controller.

01:23:46   you know, like that would make their lives easier,

01:23:49   but it would mean, well,

01:23:51   but the new one is slightly lower power

01:23:53   and it has this extra little feature

01:23:55   and we can combine these two things into one chip.

01:23:57   And it's like, if we don't do that,

01:23:59   if we try to make it easier for the software guys

01:24:01   by trying to make a stable, like a more stable platform,

01:24:03   kind of like the Intel, you know, motherboard,

01:24:07   Intel based motherboards and chip sets are whatever,

01:24:09   like a little bit more stable,

01:24:10   then the other guys will have a better phone than us.

01:24:12   And we will, every year we have to be,

01:24:14   we have to be better, better battery life,

01:24:15   better everything like I think the screen size changes.

01:24:19   That is a big hassle for them to do.

01:24:21   But part of that is like they're paying the price

01:24:23   for their expedience and doing the original version of iOS.

01:24:26   It's like, let's just get it working on this one phone.

01:24:28   Like they didn't do what Android did,

01:24:30   which was, was forced to do, which is,

01:24:33   let's make a generic, let's try at least

01:24:34   to make a generic framework for doing UI

01:24:36   on variable screen sizes.

01:24:38   And the Apple was like,

01:24:39   we're at the edge of what is even possible.

01:24:42   Just make it work on the original iPhone.

01:24:44   that is the mandate no matter what you have to do.

01:24:46   And so they've paid the price and like, you know,

01:24:48   they reap the benefits being the first person out

01:24:50   with the iPhone that no one else could even think

01:24:52   was possible.

01:24:53   And then the price is the engineering compromises

01:24:55   you had to do to get there,

01:24:56   meaning you have a long road ahead of you

01:24:57   to be able to support arbitrary resolutions,

01:25:00   arbitrary screen sizes, like,

01:25:01   and so that how many years has it taken

01:25:03   to get to where we are now with like multiple screen sizes

01:25:05   and auto layout and all the scaling and the high res screens?

01:25:08   Like it was very much unlike OS X

01:25:12   where in the beginning of OS X,

01:25:14   they had this model of what the future

01:25:15   of the display system is gonna be like,

01:25:17   and the hardware wasn't there to support it,

01:25:19   and it was terrible, and they're just like,

01:25:20   "We just gotta hold on for like six more years,

01:25:23   and this crap will work right."

01:25:26   And even then, they had to do

01:25:28   some fairly large architectural changes

01:25:30   to get stuff off the CPU and onto the GPU.

01:25:32   So everything in engineering, software, hardware,

01:25:36   engineering is a trade-off, and I just think

01:25:38   what we see now, and this whole idea of the UI

01:25:40   kept people spending their time treading water

01:25:42   and doing marketing features,

01:25:43   is the result of engineering trade-offs made

01:25:46   many, many years earlier,

01:25:47   just kind of coming home to roost now.

01:25:50   - Yeah, that makes sense.

01:25:51   All right, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:25:55   Squarespace, Igloo, and Fracture,

01:25:57   and we will see you next week.

01:25:59   (upbeat music)

01:26:02   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:26:04   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:26:07   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

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01:26:11   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:26:17   'Cause it was accidental, or it was accidental

01:26:22   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:26:27   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:26:32   @CASEYLISS

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01:26:57   Tech podcast

01:26:59   So long

01:27:02   A hundred episodes in the bag.

01:27:05   God, we're getting old.

01:27:08   So how about the Detroit Auto Show?

01:27:10   Did anything happen to the Detroit Auto Show other than the Ford GT?

01:27:14   The NSX.

01:27:15   Oh, yeah, but everyone knew about that.

01:27:17   Everyone saw pictures.

01:27:19   What was new that we learned about the NSX?

01:27:20   I haven't looked at any of the news, so I'm asking you.

01:27:22   What was new that we learned about the NSX at the Detroit Auto Show?

01:27:25   We learned it's a twin turbo V6.

01:27:27   We learned it- You didn't know that already?

01:27:29   I don't keep up with Honda because I don't drive a Honda, but I didn't know that.

01:27:35   I didn't know for sure it would be mid-engined, although it's a safe assumption, and it is

01:27:39   mid-engined.

01:27:40   What do you mean you didn't know it would be mid-engined?

01:27:41   We've seen final pictures of the NSX for what seems like a year now.

01:27:45   You can just look at the car.

01:27:46   Where do you think they're putting the engine?

01:27:47   Really?

01:27:48   Have we seen it?

01:27:49   Yeah, no.

01:27:51   More or less, the complete NSX, maybe with camouflage or whatever, we've known what this

01:27:57   car is going to look like for a long time.

01:27:59   No, fair enough.

01:28:00   Well, I guess I just don't follow Honda as closely as you do, John.

01:28:03   I don't follow it at all, but I've, you know, when it was like, it was like a year ago and

01:28:06   they said, this is the new SX and they were selling like drawings and then you get to

01:28:09   see the one with the camouflage paint all over it.

01:28:11   And I guess now this is the first time we're seeing the one like, you know, painted and

01:28:14   presented the way Honda wants to do that.

01:28:17   But anyway, I think it's kind of ugly.

01:28:19   You know what I did like is on their intro video, which to my eye looked 100% CGI.

01:28:27   I mean, it was good CGI, but it looked like to me anyway, it looked like it was completely

01:28:32   CGI.

01:28:33   On the bottom of this CGI video of the NSX driving around, it said "Professional Driver

01:28:41   Close Course."

01:28:43   And it was a completely fabricated video.

01:28:46   Alright, if it wasn't it was very poorly recorded because it looked it's gonna watch the video. It didn't look CG

01:28:51   Is that one with the little kid playing with the toy old? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, look like it could be real to me

01:28:57   I mean maybe modified after the fact, but I just thought that was funny. It's new Ford GT looks good

01:29:02   Yeah, I'm not that excited about the NSX the GT

01:29:05   GT makes me uncomfortable because I don't I don't like the idea of

01:29:14   styling driven nostalgia or

01:29:16   nostalgia driven styling to the degree that has been practiced by US automakers over the past like say decade or two where they make like

01:29:23   oh make the new Mustang and make it look like a

01:29:27   Modernized version of a particular model of all the Mustang which usually makes it look worse. Oh see I think they all look good

01:29:34   Yeah, you live in the south

01:29:36   But I agree with you that this whole idea is getting pretty played now

01:29:40   Because like it's okay to be inspired by cars of the past

01:29:44   But you have to know what the difference between inspired is and like a style parody

01:29:48   Where like you're not even like a style pair like you're taking me like the Ford GT

01:29:52   Is a great example like the the previous Ford GT the GT 40 thing right that

01:29:57   Like it's like the same freaking cars the old one

01:30:00   It's just like you know puffed up into modern like they're taking the same design

01:30:04   It's not inspired by it's the same design and this new one is more different, but still I mean

01:30:10   I don't know if we have enough carlisses. I know someone right now is writing an angry email that mentions the word 9/11 in it

01:30:17   Right, we understand 9/11. Yeah, it's like

01:30:20   Are the Volkswagen Beetle for that matter but like I feel like the 911 has come by that honestly

01:30:27   By never moving away from that the 911 is a Volkswagen Beetle. Oh

01:30:30   But you know to me like it it is it has not

01:30:34   Every year they just change it a little bit a little bit a little bit

01:30:38   And yeah, they all look the same and it's all kind of the same family resemblance

01:30:40   But it's not like like the difference in the 9/11 the beetle is great because the beetle was the beetle and then there was a large

01:30:46   Gap of time then they made the new beetle which was exactly the same

01:30:49   You know, it's like let's make a modern version of the old beetle, right?

01:30:53   And then they have the new revision of that or whatever, right?

01:30:55   The 9/11 every single revision was just like a little change a little change a little change

01:30:59   It just never drifted too far, right?

01:31:01   I feel like that is more honest than waiting for a huge gap of time and then making a new car that looks like an old

01:31:06   I don't like new cars that that are modern versions of old cars all the way down to it

01:31:10   Is that aren't even a mix of like well this this grill is reminiscent of the grill on the blah blah blah and this tail

01:31:15   Is reminiscent of this and this isn't new like that is more appropriate

01:31:18   Don't just make me a new version of the old one, but I have to say the new GT

01:31:21   Moves farther away from the old ones

01:31:25   You can still kind of see the GT 40 and all the predecessors under there

01:31:30   But I think I think what is what's the pillar right behind the door the B pillar is that right?

01:31:35   Yes

01:31:37   From the B pillar to the front. It looks almost identical but from the B pillar to the back. It looks totally different

01:31:42   Yeah

01:31:43   and let's see the thing is it's a nice looking car all versions that the original one the the

01:31:47   GT40 from like a decade ago or whatever and the new crazy looking one. These are all no, you've got that backwards

01:31:54   It's the GT from a decade ago and the GT 40 from the 60s or 70s or whatever it was

01:31:59   So you think these are good-looking cars? Well, I thought when they did the revision one, it was to call the G

01:32:04   I don't remember the name.

01:32:05   - So the one that Clarkson had

01:32:06   that was from like the early 2000s.

01:32:09   - That was just called the GT as well?

01:32:10   - That's just the Ford GT.

01:32:12   The original one that started it all

01:32:14   in the 60s and 70s whenever it was, that was the GT40.

01:32:17   I'm pretty sure about this.

01:32:18   - These are hideous.

01:32:20   - I think this is hideous.

01:32:21   I think the NSX is hideous.

01:32:22   - The NS, oh, the new NSX or the old one?

01:32:24   - The new one.

01:32:25   The old one looks, I think, very nice.

01:32:27   And I think the design of the old one

01:32:29   actually ages fairly well for a car that's designed,

01:32:32   that was designed as long ago as it was.

01:32:34   I'm not excited, I mean I was never a huge NSX person,

01:32:39   I never got that into high-end cars back then,

01:32:41   so I don't really have any nostalgia either way,

01:32:43   but to me, the GT is at least continuing

01:32:47   what it has been more recently.

01:32:49   The NSX is like, this car was gone for a long time,

01:32:52   and now we're bringing it back.

01:32:53   But to me, this is kind of like bringing it back

01:32:55   to tech for a second, please get me out of this terrible

01:32:58   car conversation, 'cause these cars are cars

01:33:00   I don't care about.

01:33:01   (laughing)

01:33:02   Sorry, it's kinda like the new Star Wars movie.

01:33:07   Where like I am not excited about the new Star Wars movie

01:33:10   because, like inherently because it is Star Wars.

01:33:13   - Wait, wait, can I make some popcorn?

01:33:15   - You're not excited about the old

01:33:16   Star Wars movies either, so.

01:33:18   - No, I like them.

01:33:19   I mean, I was never that obsessed with them,

01:33:20   but I like them.

01:33:21   But to me, like calling this an NSX

01:33:24   and calling the new Star Wars movie Star Wars

01:33:27   is really just like, it's like licensing the name.

01:33:30   It's a branding thing. - No, no, no, no.

01:33:33   - 'Cause it's totally different people working on it.

01:33:34   - What are you talking about?

01:33:35   Yes, of course, but the people who work on the new Mustang

01:33:38   have nothing to do with the people

01:33:39   who work on the old Mustang.

01:33:40   You still use the Mustang name.

01:33:42   It's a franchise, but every Mustang

01:33:43   doesn't have to look like a particular past model.

01:33:45   There wasn't time. - No, no,

01:33:46   I'm not talking about appearance.

01:33:47   I'm talking more about spirit and continuity.

01:33:49   So making a new Star Wars movie today

01:33:52   versus making a new Star Wars movie in 50 years

01:33:55   when everyone who made the first one is dead,

01:33:57   is it any different really?

01:33:59   You're just taking the name.

01:34:00   - Everyone who made the NSX is not dead.

01:34:02   - I know, but it's been gone for long enough

01:34:05   and the market has moved on in so many ways.

01:34:07   And I'm sure the people at Honda have changed staff

01:34:10   a little bit since then.

01:34:11   I think it's, we're talking about brand names

01:34:15   the way that companies want you to talk about brand names

01:34:18   as if they have some kind of like a major significance

01:34:21   with what the product will actually be like.

01:34:23   And the fact is, it's just a nameplate on this.

01:34:26   It's just a nameplate on Star Wars.

01:34:28   Like, it doesn't matter.

01:34:29   That's how cars have always worked. Ignore movies for a second. That's how cars have always worked.

01:34:32   It's not, there's no relation between the 911 today and the 9, like, yes, you just keep calling it the 911.

01:34:38   You keep calling it the Mustang, keep calling it the Camaro, keep calling it the Corvette. That's how car labels work.

01:34:42   It's just not an aberration.

01:34:43   Right, the M5 is an abomination compared to the M1 that originally started the whole M moniker.

01:34:49   Or even just M5 compared to M5s. Compare this M5 to three generations ago. What do they share? Just the M5.

01:34:55   It's just a way that, like, that's how car naming works.

01:34:57   So I don't begrudge it that at all what I complain about is when you make for the styling

01:35:01   Specifically when you pick a particular old car and you say make a modern version of that where you don't even mix elements of other cars

01:35:07   But it's just like a you know

01:35:08   I complete facsimile and the Mustang is and I think they've done a little bit with the new Dodge Charger

01:35:13   Like I don't like that. It's like it's like saying we can't figure out how to we made a good-looking car once in the 60s

01:35:19   70s we can't figure out how to make a good-looking car again

01:35:21   So just make us a modern version of that car that we made that was good-looking

01:35:25   Yeah, I mean normally I totally agree with that is that is what it is

01:35:29   And normally I would say in this conversation Wow, you know look at look at how ugly the American car is, but honestly I

01:35:37   Cannot imagine what Acura has been thinking with their styling over the last decade or so either like to me. These are both hideous cars

01:35:45   Acura has lost its way with the styling

01:35:47   I I'm kind of disappointed that there aren't more cues from the old

01:35:52   NSX in the new one like I don't think you need to make a modernized version

01:35:55   But just take some cues like the same way that the kidneys are a cue like you can do so much with the kidneys and BMW

01:36:00   You don't say because like RS kidneys. It looks exactly like you know

01:36:03   BMW from the

01:36:05   Two decades ago or something like just styling elements should there should be some commonality in styling elements

01:36:10   I think for example the the modern Cadillac takes that too far where the cars don't look like each other

01:36:15   Exactly, but the styling elements are so dominant, and they're so repeated everywhere that there's a sameness to them. That's boring

01:36:21   Although that CTS-V, what is it, 600 and change horsepower?

01:36:26   - Speaking of ugly cars.

01:36:28   - Oh, they've always been ugly.

01:36:29   - You got the ATS if you don't want the fat one,

01:36:31   but they look too similar.

01:36:34   - Have you guys seen the new Lexus M3?

01:36:36   - No.

01:36:37   - Oh, it's rough.

01:36:38   - Well, Lexus has been rough.

01:36:40   - I know, but Lexus's styling was always very comfortable

01:36:43   if you wanted to drive an upscale marshmallow

01:36:45   for old people.

01:36:46   (laughing)

01:36:47   And that's a perfectly valid market

01:36:50   and they've done very well there

01:36:51   and that's well deserved.

01:36:52   But with their new sport F line or whatever it is,

01:36:57   they're trying to get in on the BMW territory

01:37:00   of the sports sedans and oh my god,

01:37:03   they're hideous in person.

01:37:04   I hope you get a chance to see one sometime soon.

01:37:07   Oh my goodness, they are rough.

01:37:09   It's so, so bad.

01:37:12   - What model of car are you talking about?

01:37:13   I don't even recognize it.

01:37:14   Lexus M3?

01:37:16   - Well no, it's Lexus's answer to the M3.

01:37:18   So I think it's the ISF.

01:37:20   It's one of the, it's like the F Sport versions.

01:37:22   - The RCF, you're talking about the RCF,

01:37:23   that big, giant, fat car?

01:37:25   - No, it's a sedan.

01:37:27   It might be the ISF.

01:37:28   - No, it's the RCF.

01:37:30   Do a Google for it.

01:37:31   - Yes, you're right, you're right.

01:37:32   It's the RCF now.

01:37:33   It used to be the ISF.

01:37:34   - Oh, okay.

01:37:35   - It's fat because it's heavy, you know, because, yeah.

01:37:38   All the reviews I've read of it is just like,

01:37:41   too much weight, can't get out of its own way.

01:37:44   It's like a really bad iteration of the GT-R.

01:37:48   - Yeah, this is what I'm talking about.

01:37:48   Yep, I'm seeing it.

01:37:49   - And also, I believe, am I wrong?

01:37:51   I think they also have added F-Sport trim levels

01:37:55   to a lot of the other models.

01:37:56   - They have.

01:37:57   - That doesn't sound like anything I'm familiar with.

01:37:59   - Exactly, it's the same thing.

01:38:01   I mean, it's the same BS that BMW pulls.

01:38:02   - I think every luxury car maker should have this thing.

01:38:05   Whether it's the AMG model, and Mercedes have two,

01:38:10   so it had the AMG model, but also the black.

01:38:13   Multiple layers of things.

01:38:15   - M-Sport and M.

01:38:16   - Yeah, and BMW had to have the M,

01:38:18   and they said, "You know, we can apply that M

01:38:19   We got the M Sport.

01:38:20   And so Lexus-- and same thing with Infiniti and these other companies--

01:38:24   have taken too long to figure out what they're going to do.

01:38:26   And I think Lexus is finally settling on the F. Audi

01:38:28   has the RS and the S model and then the RS model.

01:38:34   So you do need these levels.

01:38:36   This is the thing that luxury car makers do these days.

01:38:39   And I'm glad Lexus has found one.

01:38:40   I'm sad that whenever they add F to their models,

01:38:42   it makes them uglier and crappier.

01:38:45   Did you also see that BMW had a pretty big presence at CES,

01:38:49   - Yeah, that was interesting.

01:38:50   Showing off not only their version of CarPlay,

01:38:54   all sorts of, their gesture interface,

01:38:56   their backseat Samsung tablets,

01:38:58   and all sorts of weird stuff.

01:39:00   What annoyed me most about what they showed off there

01:39:03   is that almost none of it is anything I would actually want

01:39:06   and much of it I think was a step backwards.

01:39:08   Like the big key fob with the screen on it,

01:39:13   the touch screen, like,

01:39:14   no BMW, thank God that will always be

01:39:17   like a thousand dollar option,

01:39:19   'cause I'm never buying that option.

01:39:21   Because like, the last thing you want

01:39:23   is your key fob to get bigger.

01:39:25   And they're already so big,

01:39:27   they're already so chunky in your pocket.

01:39:28   - And you don't wanna have to look at it either.

01:39:30   Like why would you wanna look at it?

01:39:31   You wanna be able to do it in your pocket, just, you know.

01:39:33   Like is there anything you need to do with it at all?

01:39:35   If it's a proximity key, there shouldn't be anything,

01:39:36   but what if you wanna open the trunk?

01:39:37   So you should be able to reach in

01:39:38   and press the little thing that opens the trunk.

01:39:39   You shouldn't have to look at the screen, like.

01:39:41   - And why would you want your key fob

01:39:42   to have another battery draining feature on it?

01:39:45   That's a terrible idea.

01:39:46   Like, it's just so many bad ideas about that.

01:39:48   - Well, you'll be able to get a new battery for,

01:39:50   you get the battery replacement dealer for $700,

01:39:52   so it'll be fine.

01:39:53   (laughing)

01:39:54   - That's true.

01:39:54   But John, what was the name of the memory stick

01:39:56   for the Dreamcast that had a little display on it?

01:39:59   - VMU, Visual Memory Unit.

01:40:01   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what it reminds me of.

01:40:03   - I think it might have color screen though.

01:40:04   - Yeah, well, that's true.

01:40:05   The VMU had like one of those god-awful,

01:40:07   like original Game Boy style screens, but.

01:40:10   - And unfortunately, the BMW is probably gonna sell 'em

01:40:12   a lot more of them.

01:40:13   - Yep, that's also true.

01:40:14   But yeah, I don't know.

01:40:16   I just thought it was interesting seeing

01:40:18   that BMW took CES so seriously.

01:40:20   I don't, I still don't totally understand,

01:40:22   well, I shouldn't even say totally.

01:40:23   I still don't understand the laser headlights.

01:40:26   I don't, I mean, I've read that they're more directional

01:40:30   so they can leave a gap for like people

01:40:32   in other cars on the road.

01:40:34   - They're lasers, Casey.

01:40:35   What more do you need to know?

01:40:36   (laughing)

01:40:38   - Yeah, I mean, LEDs aren't cool enough anymore.

01:40:40   Like-- - Are you kidding?

01:40:41   Marketing people, once marketing people even find out

01:40:43   that it's possible to use lasers for lights,

01:40:45   like do that, I don't care what it takes.

01:40:47   I don't care if they're worse in every possible way,

01:40:49   laser lights.

01:40:50   - That's true.

01:40:51   But I did see also that they have OLED tail lamps now

01:40:56   or they're trying them, which I thought was very peculiar.

01:41:00   Like I'm not really sure why one would want that,

01:41:04   but I'm sure there's a good reason I'm not thinking of.

01:41:06   - You can make them thinner for more light output maybe.

01:41:10   And obviously they're a little bit lower power,

01:41:11   I don't think it's a big deal for brake lights, but yep. I don't know. I'm looking at the NSX here

01:41:17   it's not too terrible like that has the

01:41:19   schnoz problem that

01:41:21   Accurus have had but the cheese grater nose, and yeah, it's not it's a beak

01:41:26   It's more of it's not a cheese grater

01:41:27   But like from from the it's only like head-on right and I think a lot of cars have a little bit of a nose problem

01:41:32   Lately too, but it's fairly restrained like you know the headlights aren't bad the little scoops on the side are okay

01:41:39   The back is ugly.

01:41:40   - You think this is restrained?

01:41:42   - Yeah, well, compared to the new Ford GT,

01:41:46   if it looks like it's-- - Well, yeah.

01:41:47   - It's ridiculous, or even just to the Corvette.

01:41:50   - But compared to good taste,

01:41:51   none of these are good examples,

01:41:53   including the new Corvette, by the way.

01:41:55   - Yeah, no, the Ferrari looks like a car from "Night Rider"

01:41:57   that's supposed to look like it.

01:41:59   I guess I know "Night Rider" was not a Corvette.

01:42:01   - The new Corvette is, of all the cars you've mentioned

01:42:03   so far, I think the new Corvette

01:42:04   is by far the best looking one.

01:42:05   - Ugh, the back of the Corvette is worse

01:42:07   in the back of all these cars.

01:42:09   That's probably true.

01:42:10   Yeah.

01:42:11   If you've seen one in the parking lot,

01:42:12   it's just terrible.

01:42:14   It's like the unibrow of--

01:42:16   it's like a big, just ugly--

01:42:18   yeah.

01:42:20   The NSX is fine.

01:42:21   It's fine.

01:42:22   I just feel like there's not--

01:42:24   it's a little bit puffy, and there's not

01:42:25   enough of the old NSX in it.

01:42:27   And the GT is like a mutant amphibian fish

01:42:31   version of the previous GT, which was a puffed up

01:42:33   version of the original GT.

01:42:35   And none of these cars look as nice as any Ferrari probably,

01:42:39   except for the weird four-wheel drive one.

01:42:41   - The Ferrari left Ferrari?

01:42:43   - No, no, the one with four-wheel drive

01:42:45   that looks like a shoe.

01:42:46   - Isn't that the FF?

01:42:47   - Yeah.

01:42:48   - That four-wheel drive was weird though.

01:42:50   Did you see how that worked?

01:42:51   Did we talk about that at some point?

01:42:52   - Yeah, it is weird.

01:42:53   Didn't it suck?

01:42:54   - No, I don't think it sucked.

01:42:56   - Oh, I don't know.

01:42:56   Do you think anyone's ever driven one in the snow yet?

01:42:58   (laughing)

01:42:59   - That's true.

01:43:00   No, but it basically,

01:43:01   didn't it have like a second drive shaft

01:43:03   coming out the front of the motor

01:43:04   or something along those lines?

01:43:05   - Yeah, it was a really weird layout.

01:43:07   - Yeah, I mean, like I said, that one, even that one,

01:43:10   if you just don't look at the back of the car,

01:43:12   even the front of the car is much nicer,

01:43:13   but I think they're making, like I said in the past,

01:43:16   they're making a regular shaped version

01:43:19   of a non-hatchback or whatever you wanna call the thing.

01:43:22   So it's basically, so you're gonna have two 12-cylinder

01:43:24   front-engine Ferraris.

01:43:26   Why are they different?

01:43:26   Well, this one is four-wheel drive

01:43:29   and it used to be really ugly.

01:43:31   (laughing)

01:43:33   You can get an ugly version if you like ugly cars.

01:43:35   I don't know whatever.

01:43:36   (door slams)