96: The Windows of Siracusa County


00:00:00   I was thinking of closing some of my pro windows that I've had open for five years now.

00:00:03   And then I thought better of it.

00:00:05   [

00:00:08   MUSIC ]

00:00:09   I have upgraded my podcasting setup, but I have not yet posted about it on my site.

00:00:10   Has it really happened then, Casey?

00:00:12   Probably.

00:00:13   The podcast setup upgrades in the woods, and no one hears about it on your blog.

00:00:17   I have spent $10 before tax to upgrade my podcasting setup.

00:00:22   Hmm.

00:00:23   Now, what could that be?

00:00:24   You will not guess, but I would love to hear you try.

00:00:27   $10 for the Snickers bars.

00:00:29   I'm guessing it's either software. Nope. Or Okay. Or I was

00:00:34   gonna guess like a giant blanket or something but you sound you

00:00:36   still sound a little bit echo. So it's probably not that.

00:00:39   Now it's the blankets on the wall even though Aaron keeps

00:00:41   asking me to take it down the chat room is getting in on it.

00:00:44   It is not a spit filter although I like that even better than pop

00:00:48   filter. The microphone that I'm using now has one built in. No

00:00:52   it is not gold audio table. No it is not a heating pad. Yes. 10

00:00:55   whole dollars. You can't get gold audio cable for $10. Yeah,

00:00:58   It's at least gold cables start at $30. All right, I will give you one better

00:01:02   I will try to give this away. I purchased this $10 item from Apple

00:01:07   Can you purchase anything for $10 from Apple? That's not software. Yeah, how about that? Yeah, I was gonna say

00:01:13   Thunder bolt it to ethernet adapter is like 19

00:01:17   Yeah, I mean like you can't go into the Apple store buy anything for less than at least 15

00:01:21   I succeeded in doing exactly that. Hmm. What does Apple sell for $10 and it was not software?

00:01:27   He said so it is not software. Hmm was it was that its actual like regular price or was it?

00:01:32   They don't really put something on sale at the stores

00:01:34   What do they sell at $10? Did you get a sim removal tool and somehow pay $10 for it?

00:01:39   This is much more protectors are 15 at least this is much more entertaining than I thought it was going to be

00:01:46   Actually, this would become a topic. It's like what can you buy it on Apple Store for $10?

00:01:50   Wait a second. Is it a retail Apple Store online? Yes. No, no retail and the chat room the chat room has figured it out

00:01:56   Oh magsafe adapter. Yep $10. Yep. Oh, wow. Wow. I thought though

00:02:00   I thought that would be $19 - just because it'd be like well, we can't sell something for $10

00:02:04   I thought for sure it must have been like a third-party product sold in an Apple store

00:02:07   So is this so your your laptop won't run out of battery power during the podcast or something? I

00:02:11   Used to use my work

00:02:14   Hi-res anti glare 2011 MacBook Pro 15-inch MacBook Pro

00:02:19   But the fans constantly screamed no matter what I did no matter what I did

00:02:23   they were always screaming and Marco was very gentle about basically telling me to shut up and deal and use a different computer and

00:02:30   so

00:02:32   Eventually I had gotten Erin a brand new MacBook Air. This was a few months ago

00:02:37   I got her a brand new MacBook Air and I started borrowing that in order to record well

00:02:43   Unbeknownst to Marco and John I was doing this on battery power on Wi-Fi

00:02:48   Oh my god, which if Dan Benjamin ever heard this he will probably fly to Richmond and murder me

00:02:54   I'm so happy you never told us that you're welcome. That was the right call now

00:02:58   I'm still on Wi-Fi, but now at least I'm plugged into the wall. No the the Wi-Fi thing

00:03:03   I'm less concerned about because I know you're a nerd

00:03:06   I know you're set up, but I know that you are like probably right next to your router

00:03:09   I am indeed so I'm and and Wi-Fi is not as unreliable as as it used to be

00:03:14   You know modern Wi-Fi is really not that bad

00:03:16   if you're if you're anywhere near the near the base station, but

00:03:20   The running on battery thing that would that would stress me out like crazy

00:03:24   Yep

00:03:24   Like even if even if I was 100% like I would always have that stress

00:03:27   Even if I even if I had a fully charged eight-hour battery, it would still stress me out

00:03:32   Yep, and the MacBook Air does last an eternity

00:03:35   But I kid you not those times that I told you I needed to go because my battery was dying

00:03:40   That was not a lie. That's because the battery was dying and real-time follow-up from me to me

00:03:45   It was ten dollars and fifty two cents with tax. Oh my god, that's incredible and that in that while I will also say

00:03:51   that I

00:03:53   walked in with my dad who happened to be in at the time and I was all smug and happy with myself because he has

00:03:58   A 5s I have a 6 I was going to go in use the Apple Store app

00:04:02   I was going to use Apple pay within the app and walk out and not have to speak to anyone

00:04:09   well

00:04:10   that would that would mean that you could actually

00:04:11   find this adapter on a wall display where you could get it and someone didn't have to go into the back or whatever and get

00:04:16   It for you, right?

00:04:17   So as it turns out it was on the floor

00:04:19   Although it was on the opposite side of the store from where I expected it was if you looking at any

00:04:24   Given Apple Store any normal one anyway, and you know the Genius Bar is in the back

00:04:27   I thought it was to the right it turns out it was to the left

00:04:29   and so I grant well actually a

00:04:32   person had

00:04:34   accosted me in a happy way when I walked in because it was surprisingly empty and

00:04:37   They directed me to the thing and I said, okay, I'll just pay for it with the app

00:04:41   You know very in a nice way you can go away now

00:04:44   Well, then I go to open the Apple Store app and it hangs and so I think to myself self

00:04:50   I'm a smart guy. I know there are eye beacons all over the place in this store

00:04:55   I wonder if having Bluetooth on is somehow confusing it so I turned Bluetooth off force quit started again

00:05:01   Nothing still hangs self. Maybe it realizes that the Apple Store Wi-Fi is nearby

00:05:07   You should kill the Wi-Fi and that'll do the trick. Well, then does it even work after that?

00:05:11   Yeah, because I have AT&T no, but I'm Stanley doesn't even know that you were in the Apple Store

00:05:15   If it doesn't have one of those things, ah, good point. Actually, I didn't think about that. That's a very fair point. So I

00:05:21   Force quit the app turned off the Wi-Fi

00:05:23   Started the app again did mark

00:05:26   So fine

00:05:26   So eventually I have to go over there to someone with my tail between my legs and say hey

00:05:30   Can I play for this please because I kind of can't do it on my phone all by myself and so then

00:05:35   This nice person allows me to pay and I say to my dad not thinking really about what I was saying

00:05:42   oh my my Apple pay moment is ruined and

00:05:45   then they the

00:05:48   Gentleman said well, no, it's not you can Apple pay right here

00:05:50   And then because I had like the thought of I beacons in my head

00:05:55   I thought oh and in the thought of using Apple pay an app

00:05:59   I thought oh well I guess I have to like turn Bluetooth on aren't I and I say that out loud and then I realized that

00:06:04   Absurdity of what I just said because it's all NFC. This is like how doctors make the worst patients. You know

00:06:10   Make the worst Apple pay it's so yeah, so so that's the thing is that I said out loud

00:06:16   That was my critical mistake was saying it out loud. Oh, I should probably turn Bluetooth on shouldn't I?

00:06:20   and then I realized the absurdity of what I said and he just sets his iPod touch on the on the counter and I

00:06:28   Realized what he means and so I put my phone on top of his iPod touch which sounds awkward

00:06:34   But it wasn't and sure enough everything worked. No problem. Well, then it gets better because I

00:06:39   Start to walk away thinking. Oh, he'll send me my receipt

00:06:42   No problem, because they know what my credit card is and they'll they'll send automatically

00:06:48   I just had this exact same issue and they go to walk away and then the guy says oh

00:06:52   Do you want your receipt and I said, oh, yeah

00:06:54   You can email to me and you know

00:06:55   whatever the email is on file and he looks and he's like, Oh, I don't have an

00:06:58   email on file. And at that point it occurs to me the whole freaking point in

00:07:01   Apple pay is that I have, you know, the device, whatever, whatever ID.

00:07:06   So it's a unique credit card number for the device. Of course they don't have it

00:07:09   because I've never used it there before. So basically I should not be allowed in

00:07:14   an Apple store unsupervised is a summary.

00:07:16   The only way this could have gone worse is maybe if your credit card was

00:07:19   declined and then if you left the thing in the store,

00:07:22   - That's true actually.

00:07:24   - Or like, or the payment didn't go through,

00:07:25   but you didn't know it, so you started walking out

00:07:26   and then you get tackled by security.

00:07:28   - Yeah, yeah.

00:07:29   - You stop lifting a $10 MagSafe adapter.

00:07:30   - Exactly.

00:07:31   Anyway, do you want to start with some follow-up?

00:07:34   - We have so much follow-up.

00:07:35   - We have a lot of follow-up.

00:07:37   - It's not a lot.

00:07:38   - Oh, it says the king.

00:07:40   All right, let's talk about Transmit, the app by Panic.

00:07:44   What happened with them, John?

00:07:45   - So they got their app rejected for, what was it,

00:07:48   for like send the exporting files to iCloud or something,

00:07:51   and we complained about in the past two shows.

00:07:53   And I think towards the end of our last show,

00:07:57   bemoaning the state of the App Store

00:07:59   and the various rejections,

00:08:00   I said both the worst and the best thing that could happen

00:08:03   is that these people who have had their apps rejected

00:08:06   get contacted by someone at Apple

00:08:08   and they quietly work out their differences

00:08:10   and their apps are reinstated.

00:08:11   And I said, that's the best thing that happened

00:08:13   because hey, yay, we get the apps that we wanted.

00:08:15   Those application developers get their apps onto the store

00:08:18   just like they wanted.

00:08:20   and it seems like everybody's happy,

00:08:21   but it's the worst thing that can happen

00:08:22   because this is what happens all the time.

00:08:25   Like there's some problem,

00:08:27   a bunch of people get their apps rejected

00:08:30   or pulled from the store.

00:08:33   There's lots of blog posts about it, we all complain.

00:08:35   Apple contacts them, quietly works it out with them

00:08:38   and puts them back in.

00:08:39   And then the cycle just repeats itself.

00:08:41   Like you're never going to,

00:08:42   we never get our Christ-tunity, right?

00:08:44   We're never gonna get,

00:08:46   it never gets bad enough that something has to be done.

00:08:48   Now I can't say that's necessarily the case.

00:08:50   this time because sometimes the outcome is the app gets pulled, there's a whole bunch

00:08:54   of brass people complain, and Apple doesn't change its mind.

00:08:57   An example of that from the early days would be NES emulators or MAME type things or all

00:09:03   sorts of things that have been on the store briefly and then immediately pulled because

00:09:06   you're not allowed to do emulation or run code or stuff like that.

00:09:09   Apple pretty much hasn't budged on that except for scripting engines and games and other

00:09:13   little gray areas that I think eventually got written to the guidelines.

00:09:17   doesn't always turn out positively but this type of thing where they make dumb

00:09:20   decisions they linger we have to make a bunch of noise and then it gets worked

00:09:24   out that never makes anything get better like we're not making progress we you're

00:09:28   you know we should if we were making progress a cycle wouldn't keep repeating

00:09:32   itself so that best worst thing that was going to happen did happen and I just

00:09:36   saw someone add to the notes that uh didn't just happen for transmit also

00:09:39   happened for drafts which got pulled for its extension and of course we talked

00:09:43   about pcalc which got rejected and then reinstated so it's good in that in this case the apps

00:09:50   that we want to see on the store actually did get on the store eventually it's bad and

00:09:54   that it seems like you know it doesn't seem like that apple is making forward progress

00:10:00   on it the only the only hope i have is that under this new apple regime where you know

00:10:06   it just seems like tim cook is is less stubborn tim cook's apple seems to me to be slightly

00:10:10   less stubborn than Steve Jobs' Apple was. Is it because Tim Cook is less stubborn than Steve Jobs?

00:10:15   Maybe I'm just projecting, I don't know, but we already talked about how the engineering

00:10:18   organization has made progress in doing things that previously they were quote unquote too

00:10:23   stubborn to do, you know, whether that was the, you know, a corporate directive or whatever,

00:10:27   but for years there were things we wanted that we didn't think, oh, they're never going to let you

00:10:30   use keyboards, custom keyboards in iOS, and they did, and extensions and all that other stuff.

00:10:36   That is good forward progress.

00:10:39   And it could be, I'm holding out hope maybe

00:10:41   that someone high up in the organization

00:10:45   has sent the word down that the App Store

00:10:47   needs to do less of this stuff,

00:10:48   and maybe this'll be, maybe the next time this happens,

00:10:53   we'll have a better, faster response,

00:10:54   or maybe this won't happen again in the same way.

00:10:56   I don't know, I mean, we'll just have to wait.

00:10:58   But for some reason, I find myself slightly more optimistic.

00:11:02   Even though the best worst thing did happen,

00:11:03   I found myself slightly optimistic

00:11:05   that Tim Cook's gonna be like,

00:11:07   "Why do we keep seeing all these stories about this stuff?

00:11:09   Why can't we get our acts together on that?

00:11:12   What is it that we're doing

00:11:14   that's making us do these things

00:11:15   and then reversing ourselves?"

00:11:16   Obviously, we're not even happy with our own decisions,

00:11:18   'cause it's not like they're reversing, I don't think,

00:11:20   because of pressure.

00:11:22   It's like inattention, you know?

00:11:25   Like the banal evil of inattention where it's like,

00:11:30   is there something going on over there?

00:11:31   Did somebody reject something?

00:11:33   Why don't we take a look at that?

00:11:33   And by the time people take a look at it,

00:11:35   They were like, oh, this is panic.

00:11:36   They're great. Why are we rejecting for this?

00:11:37   This thing is just fine.

00:11:38   You know, like they reverse because if the best minds

00:11:41   in the company were put on it,

00:11:42   they never would have rejected it in the first place.

00:11:44   So just to reject it because of, you know,

00:11:45   the whims of some individual reviewer or something.

00:11:48   And that is a structural problem.

00:11:49   The fact that that type of thing can happen

00:11:51   and not be resolved without a long time passing.

00:11:54   Anyway, so there you go.

00:11:57   - Well, and this is a little bit better.

00:12:00   A full on rejection is a little bit better

00:12:02   than what some developers go through.

00:12:04   Mark Christian wrote me a little while ago, a couple weeks ago, saying that, you know,

00:12:10   he's one of the developers of the app Dragndrop. That's D-R-A-G-O-N-D-R-O-P, which I've mentioned

00:12:16   a long time ago on the show. Well, anyway, he wrote in, he said, "I have another idea,

00:12:20   or excuse me, another app in the store called Timebar. When I tried to publish an update

00:12:23   for Yosemite, App Review decided that the fundamental idea of the app is unacceptable."

00:12:27   And I think that's because it kind of paints the menu bar as a progress meter. And the

00:12:32   The idea of this app, I guess, is to count down until you get up and walk around or maybe

00:12:38   you know, the turkey's done or what have you.

00:12:40   I don't know.

00:12:41   Anyway, so App Review decided that the fundamental idea of the app is unacceptable.

00:12:44   It violates the max menu bar and rejected me.

00:12:47   So he's stuck in limbo because it isn't kicked out of the store, but he can't update it.

00:12:53   And that's an even worse place to be than a full on rejection as far as I'm concerned.

00:12:59   And you know, get the hell out of here.

00:13:01   But I mean, I guess maybe that's what Panic had to deal with.

00:13:04   I don't know, I guess so.

00:13:05   Maybe that is the same.

00:13:06   - Well, you can always pull your own app, right?

00:13:08   - Yeah, I mean, I just did so.

00:13:09   - And it is, you know, it's different on the Mac,

00:13:11   'cause you don't have to use the Mac App Store.

00:13:13   You know, on iOS, if you have that limit on iOS,

00:13:16   your product is just dead.

00:13:18   Like, you will never be able to do that product again

00:13:20   in that way.

00:13:21   And so I feel less bad for Mac developers in this regard,

00:13:27   just because there is another option there,

00:13:30   and it's not a bad option.

00:13:31   Whereas the iOS option is like,

00:13:33   "Well, you can put it on the Cydia store."

00:13:35   (laughing)

00:13:37   Yeah, that's like the iOS equivalent of like,

00:13:39   "We can go live in the woods."

00:13:40   Like there's nothing, like that is not a business model.

00:13:44   Please email Casey if you disagree.

00:13:46   Now, I think that it's important to,

00:13:48   when we hear things like transmit and drafts,

00:13:53   getting their bad decisions reversed.

00:13:56   The reason why we were mad about this

00:13:59   is not that we disagreed with the rule.

00:14:03   I mean, some of us might've disagreed with the rule,

00:14:04   but that's not the main reason why this is so destructive.

00:14:08   The main reason why it's so destructive

00:14:09   is that we can't tell in advance what the rules will be.

00:14:13   And Apple's refusal to document more of these rules,

00:14:17   and again, part of that is just because

00:14:18   they haven't decided it yet.

00:14:19   And I recognize that that's an issue,

00:14:22   but part of it also is like,

00:14:23   at the very top of their rules document,

00:14:25   it says this is a living document,

00:14:26   and it's been pretty dead for a long time.

00:14:28   Like there's a lot of rules that are not on it.

00:14:30   A lot of newer rules that have seemingly no intention

00:14:34   of ever getting onto it.

00:14:35   And it just seems like, you know, when Apple does things,

00:14:40   like with many of the rules, it just seems like,

00:14:43   well, that makes sense.

00:14:44   Like it's common sense or you can see why they're doing it.

00:14:48   Like that's a sensible rule.

00:14:50   It's not, you can't really argue too much with it

00:14:52   or you at least see their point of view.

00:14:54   And you can predict when you're developing an app,

00:14:56   Like, launcher, I totally get that that was gonna be

00:15:00   rejected because they've had a long standing rule

00:15:02   against these home screen within an app style of apps,

00:15:07   launchers like that.

00:15:10   They've had a lot of issues with those in the past.

00:15:13   So there are certain rules that the developers all know,

00:15:16   okay, this idea for an app, before I even start building it,

00:15:20   this will almost certainly get rejected,

00:15:22   so I shouldn't build it.

00:15:24   The problem is when the rules start getting

00:15:25   really capricious and unpredictable and unjustifiable,

00:15:29   then developers start wasting time

00:15:33   or actually shipping apps first

00:15:35   and then they get rejected later,

00:15:36   which hurts their relationship with their customers

00:15:38   in addition to wasting all the time

00:15:39   of having the app being built.

00:15:41   It's pretty bad when developers waste months on something

00:15:44   that they're pretty sure is gonna get approved.

00:15:46   - And the worst part is that it's like,

00:15:49   Apple doesn't speak with one voice on any of these things.

00:15:52   I mean, again, the reversals are not because

00:15:55   changed their mind but just because the the the corporation as a whole believes that the Panix app

00:16:01   should be allowed but the people who were tasked with the individuals who were tasked with that

00:16:06   decision at that particular time said no so what i was thinking of is you know well what if we had

00:16:10   a you know if you have a questionable uh app or feature idea as part of your dev membership blah

00:16:15   blah you get two or three of these you know instead of a technical support instance you can say

00:16:19   uh ask apple i am playing a feature like this and you just describe it before you've written a line

00:16:25   of code. Will this be allowed in the store? And have a system whereby if they say yes,

00:16:30   it will be allowed in the store, that you have some reasonable hope that that answer

00:16:35   is meaningful in any way. Well, that's hard, though. Barring a rule change. If you were

00:16:41   to ask, you know, like, the same type of people who came up with the decision now to say transmit

00:16:46   is allowed in the store with that feature, right? When faced with this question, hey,

00:16:50   there's a feature. Say that same group of people, whoever they are, were faced with

00:16:53   with the same question before panic had written a single line of code and said,

00:16:57   we're thinking about this feature to transmit. It's going to do X, Y, and Z.

00:17:00   Uh, is that going to be allowed those same people hopefully could come up with

00:17:04   the same answer six months ago.

00:17:06   Like I don't think that much has changed since then and say, yeah, go ahead,

00:17:09   build that or, you know, or just be able to ask them ahead of time.

00:17:13   But the idea now is like,

00:17:14   if I can get somebody an app review and ask them,

00:17:16   depending on who I get an app review, the answer means nothing.

00:17:18   Because if I get a different person,

00:17:19   when my app is reviewed and they don't share information, Oh yeah.

00:17:21   I said that guy could do that feature and it's okay.

00:17:24   Or like, even if the answer is we don't know yet

00:17:27   and we have to like sort of regroup and have a big meeting

00:17:29   and decide whether it's like, do that beforehand.

00:17:31   Like ideally do that before you even write the guidelines

00:17:34   and then put it in the guidelines.

00:17:35   But say it's something they never thought of,

00:17:36   like, hmm, we never considered this 'cause that can happen.

00:17:39   We never even considered doing this in an application.

00:17:41   We'll get back to you.

00:17:42   And then you're kind of in a holding pattern,

00:17:44   but at least you're not like either just guessing

00:17:47   or like asking the best sources you do have

00:17:49   and them telling you probably yes, no, maybe,

00:17:52   but those mean nothing, right?

00:17:53   The idea that the company can't decide,

00:17:55   can't speak with one voice on this.

00:17:58   There is no one voice, there is no,

00:18:00   and I know there's millions of app developers

00:18:01   and every single one of them can't be bugging Apple

00:18:03   and saying, can I have this feature?

00:18:04   But that's why I'm saying like,

00:18:05   it would have to be a limited resource,

00:18:06   like technical support incidents,

00:18:08   'cause there's a cost associated with it

00:18:09   and so on and so forth.

00:18:10   But this is, I think this is a system that could work

00:18:14   if again, Apple could get its act together

00:18:16   with App Store stuff.

00:18:17   And some of the things like, oh, you know,

00:18:19   It's a situation they didn't think of.

00:18:20   Some of these things with like sending a file

00:18:22   to iCloud Drive, like people were baffled

00:18:24   because like Marco just said,

00:18:25   "Well, it's not because we didn't like the rule."

00:18:28   In this case, like what rule?

00:18:29   What, you know, the rule they were signing

00:18:30   didn't even mention iCloud Drive.

00:18:31   And the second thing is everyone said,

00:18:33   "Isn't that the whole point of iCloud Drive?

00:18:34   Maybe we're misunderstanding

00:18:35   what the point of iCloud Drive was,

00:18:36   but are you supposed to be able to send files?"

00:18:38   Like it's, you know, it just, it doesn't make any sense.

00:18:41   And clearly, you know, the so-called living document

00:18:45   hasn't been updated to reflect

00:18:47   all these new things we've got.

00:18:48   Like there's no new clauses or anything in there

00:18:50   for all these features that we got in iOS 8.

00:18:52   I'm still gonna say that Apple's dealing

00:18:55   with server-side software and services is worse than this,

00:18:58   but this is probably the app store, the iOS app store,

00:19:02   I guess the Mac app store too,

00:19:04   are their worst externally visible administrative problems

00:19:08   in the company, I think.

00:19:10   - These kind of decisions are usually not

00:19:12   like one random reviewer somewhere.

00:19:14   Usually it gets escalated at least a couple levels up.

00:19:18   From what I understand and from what I'm kind of hearing rumblings of, this is a mid-level

00:19:22   fight with an Apple.

00:19:24   It's a mid-level conflict between mid-level department...

00:19:27   Well, there are always mid-level things, but when a mid-level thing...

00:19:31   Like when stories start coming out, and when people are writing blog posts, that becomes

00:19:35   the message of the day, is Apple did something bad and we're angry about it.

00:19:40   Eventually, those mid-level fights start to filter up to the higher levels, and the higher

00:19:44   level people go, "What's going on down there with you guys?

00:19:46   I saw some stories about this thing.

00:19:48   I think like nobody likes bad press.

00:19:49   Nobody likes to, you know,

00:19:51   and if it gets up to their level,

00:19:53   then all of a sudden, you know, whoever it is,

00:19:55   a more senior vice president

00:19:56   goes down to the mid-level people and says,

00:19:58   you know, get your stuff together.

00:20:00   What the hell are you guys doing?

00:20:01   Work it out.

00:20:02   When your internal problems end up,

00:20:04   you know, on the pages of, you know, tech news sites,

00:20:08   we have a problem.

00:20:09   And if that happens too many times,

00:20:10   hopefully somebody really high up will be like,

00:20:13   we have a structural problem here.

00:20:16   and we need to sort this out." Like it seems like they did sort out and decide to do on the

00:20:20   engineering side, they made massive structural changes that have resulted in what we feel on

00:20:27   the outside as positive change, right? Right, and you can tell, like, you know, we,

00:20:31   right now, nothing is resolved. You know, with Transmit getting approved, Draft getting re-approved,

00:20:36   this doesn't actually resolve anything yet. What will resolve this is if we stop hearing about

00:20:41   things like this, where it's like, "Oh, surprise, there's this rule no one could have predicted,

00:20:44   and we're going to half enforce it with some apps. That's the problem here. So this, I hope that

00:20:50   upgrade that happened in engineering that got them to increase collaboration in Tim Cook's words,

00:20:57   I hope they can apply that to this area too, because clearly this is not like one rogue

00:21:02   employee making bad decisions. This is clearly an ongoing conflict within the middle of these

00:21:08   organizations that somebody has to resolve and it's not going to resolve itself at the

00:21:14   levels it's at. Obviously there's some kind of back and forth going on here that's not

00:21:18   good.

00:21:19   We didn't even talk about this last time, but we had a link in last week's show notes.

00:21:22   It was about that post where I think it was someone quoting from, either quoting from

00:21:27   or like recalling what someone told them over the phone. And the idea was that, again, I

00:21:32   think this is hearsay.

00:21:33   Like the launcher developer.

00:21:35   That said that the App Store people said we rejected your app because it's a high-profile app and we figured by rejecting your app

00:21:41   It'll a lot of people will notice and it will get the message out to the rest of the developers that they shouldn't do things

00:21:46   Like you've done like they were making an example of you like that's there someone

00:21:50   Supposedly articulated this philosophy of App Store of this is how we communicate our policies

00:21:56   We don't write them into guidelines instead. We pick a high-profile app and make an example of it

00:22:00   So all the other application developers see its head on the pike and know not to go there

00:22:04   anymore, don't do what this developer did.

00:22:07   Which is, A, it's amazing someone would say that out loud to a developer, and B, even

00:22:11   if that's your secret strategy, it's a terrible secret strategy too.

00:22:15   That is not the correct way to communicate to your application developers.

00:22:18   There are better ways.

00:22:19   Yeah, that's what I called "disgusting" on my blog, because that is really truly disgusting.

00:22:24   And yeah, so it was the developer of Launcher, I think his name is Greg something, I'll look

00:22:28   and put it in the show notes.

00:22:30   And yeah, he was paraphrasing the conversation he had

00:22:35   with, like a reviewer called him in response

00:22:37   to some of his inquiries.

00:22:39   That's what they do, like you inquire,

00:22:41   and then if you're lucky, you get like a random phone,

00:22:43   this is what I said as the Agent Smith phone call,

00:22:45   you get like a random phone call from somebody

00:22:48   who usually you don't get a name or any way

00:22:50   to like contact them again.

00:22:51   If this is a one way, one time phone call

00:22:54   coming from like the main Apple switchboard number,

00:22:55   like you can't, there's nothing you can do about it.

00:22:58   And they're usually very terse.

00:23:01   I've gotten a couple of these calls

00:23:02   for various questions I've asked,

00:23:04   or issues I've run into,

00:23:05   and usually they're pretty terse,

00:23:08   'cause they know that there's a good chance

00:23:10   they're gonna be quoted and put on a blog somewhere.

00:23:13   And so they conserve words,

00:23:15   and they're very non-committal with many things they say.

00:23:18   And occasionally you'll get somebody

00:23:20   who is a little bit more helpful, and he did.

00:23:23   And I think they were a little too helpful

00:23:26   in explaining why they're doing some of these things.

00:23:28   And if that is true, I mean, we don't have any validation.

00:23:32   We will never get any validation from Apple

00:23:33   whether this is true or not.

00:23:35   I don't think he has any reason to lie about it.

00:23:37   And even if he's exaggerating about it,

00:23:39   even then it's still pretty terrible.

00:23:41   And those people who call, those are mid-level people.

00:23:45   That's not the person who spends six minutes

00:23:47   with 10,000 apps a day.

00:23:49   That is a mid-level manager you're talking to.

00:23:51   That's like through the approval review board

00:23:54   or whatever they call it.

00:23:55   that's where that phone call comes from.

00:23:58   So anything they say usually is pretty credible

00:24:02   as the current policy of App Review.

00:24:06   - Yeah, I know, but it's still hearsay

00:24:07   because we're going by what the developer says

00:24:08   that someone from Apple said.

00:24:10   So I'm just saying this is not a confirmed thing.

00:24:12   - No, but I'm saying, I'm sure,

00:24:14   the nitty gritty details are probably suspect

00:24:18   because people have bad memories.

00:24:20   I don't know if you recorded the call, probably not.

00:24:23   but the big picture, like the general idea,

00:24:26   is probably right.

00:24:27   And if the person who called him said that,

00:24:32   that is not the actions of just one little employee

00:24:34   somewhere buried in an apple,

00:24:35   that's the actions of a mid-level person,

00:24:36   and that's substantial.

00:24:39   - So I'm all depressed now,

00:24:40   so why don't you tell me about something that's really cool?

00:24:43   - Absolutely.

00:24:44   So we have something a little bit special this week,

00:24:46   a song sponsor.

00:24:48   This is a song, instead of me doing a sponsor read.

00:24:51   - It's not a fish song, is it?

00:24:53   (laughing)

00:24:54   No, it is way better than that.

00:24:56   It is a Jonathan Mann song.

00:24:58   - Oh, that is way better.

00:24:59   - Yeah, see, we got it.

00:25:00   We got a good one this time.

00:25:01   This is for Dash at thedash.com.

00:25:03   Before I split this, I gotta give you a quick story.

00:25:06   So I met Scott O'Reilly from Dash at Singleton this year.

00:25:11   He came up to me and said, "Hi, I'm the guy from Dash."

00:25:15   And for the first 20 or 30 seconds of that conversation,

00:25:20   I thought he was the guy who made

00:25:22   the developer documentation app Dash,

00:25:24   which is a documentation app that runs on the Mac.

00:25:27   - I was gonna guess Mrs. Dash.

00:25:29   - He was not salty.

00:25:32   The first 20 or 30 seconds, I said some things

00:25:35   that were like, that probably did not make any sense

00:25:38   to him at all.

00:25:39   Like looking back on it, it was pretty embarrassing.

00:25:41   And the truly embarrassing thing is I never corrected it.

00:25:44   Like I never said, "Oh, I'm sorry.

00:25:45   "I thought you were that other guy."

00:25:46   I just kinda, once I realized it,

00:25:48   I just kinda rolled with it.

00:25:50   So here I am during his ad rate.

00:25:52   I'm first going to apologize to him publicly

00:25:54   'cause I still haven't told him that.

00:25:56   So this is my coming out on that.

00:25:58   And second of all, he was such a nice guy

00:26:00   that even if he thought what I was saying

00:26:02   didn't quite make sense, he didn't let on at all.

00:26:04   Like he just rolled with it and as far as I can tell,

00:26:07   I was not busted there.

00:26:09   So if you knew, he was nice enough not to embarrass me.

00:26:12   And so anyway, he's a really nice guy.

00:26:15   And so here it is, the Jonathan Mann song

00:26:17   for Dash at thedash.com.

00:26:19   Well, goddamn it's Dash, where you can easily create real time.

00:26:25   Dashboards that show information.

00:26:27   There are dozens of pre-built widgets for services like app figures, Google Analytics,

00:26:34   GitHub, and don't forget Twitter.

00:26:37   Go to the Dash.com.

00:26:40   You don't need no credit card.

00:26:42   Go to the Dash.com.

00:26:45   Play with it because it is fun.

00:26:47   Well, goddamn, it's Dash You can also show custom data

00:26:54   It's got a great API to share from Dropbox or the web

00:27:00   Things like line charts, speedometers, tables, or used iframe

00:27:06   Pricing model is a lot like GitHub All the public dashboards for free

00:27:11   10 bucks a month, unlimited private dashboards could be yours

00:27:17   So go to thedash.com, they're currently running a promotion.

00:27:22   If you sign up at thedash.com, private dashboard you'll be able to get one.

00:27:28   Go to thedash.com, you don't need no credit card.

00:27:32   Sit, go to thedash.com and play with it because it is fun.

00:27:41   So thanks a lot to thedash.com.

00:27:43   there and check out Dash, it's pretty cool. And yeah, the guy who runs it, Scott, is really,

00:27:49   really nice. So thanks a lot to Dash. Go to thedash.com.

00:27:54   All right. So the whole of the internet has sent us a link with regard to Crossy Road,

00:28:01   which I almost called Crossy Bird. It was built by two Victorians, Andrew Sum, who is

00:28:07   was 24 in Matthew Hall, who is 39. And among other things, they said that the game has

00:28:13   generated enough for them to retire quote, seven figures is correct. One of them said,

00:28:21   so that answers the question as to whether or not they're making any money on this game.

00:28:25   And it sounds like the answer is, uh, yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, to be fair, my original statement

00:28:30   when they were positioned at like number five top free app, but number 200 top grossing,

00:28:36   My original statement was that basically it was probably out of proportion, that they

00:28:40   were not really making as much money as they probably should with that level of free downloads.

00:28:45   And then of course last week, after a couple of updates, changed it and dramatically improved

00:28:50   their rank.

00:28:51   So yeah, good job for them.

00:28:52   The most interesting thing in this story is that the -- who assisted?

00:28:56   One of the developers was saying, this is a quote, "We always wanted to build a popular

00:29:00   game, but we didn't think we could build a game that could generate money.

00:29:03   Everyone else in the industry will tell you that you need to squeeze people and you need

00:29:05   You do this and that and get some things behind a paywall

00:29:08   You're told that if you're not making clash of clans a clash of clans clone. You're doing it wrong

00:29:12   I felt very very strongly there were other ways of doing this so they have the same doubts about like can we make a game?

00:29:16   That isn't annoying that monetizes in a nice way

00:29:19   They you know they wanted to make a popular game

00:29:21   But they didn't think they could build a popular game that would actually generate money because they didn't want to do all the scummy things

00:29:27   That all those free-to-play games do and so this is a feel-good story because they made a great game

00:29:32   They did it the way they wanted with extremely gentle monetization

00:29:37   And they made a lot of money and you know as Marco said they could have made even more money

00:29:42   But once the once you're into

00:29:44   Enough money to retire. I think they're going to enjoy their retirement a lot more having made a game that they're proud of

00:29:49   Rather than having even double the money

00:29:52   But just feeling bad about the way they got it because they seem like that kind of people

00:29:56   And one of the developers said it took him

00:29:59   What did he say six weeks to get all the characters just by playing the game like not not paying any money

00:30:04   And he says other people have done in two weeks

00:30:06   So they made this game and they knew it was both possible and probably pretty darn fun

00:30:10   To not pay a cent and play the game and yet they're still ended up making tons of money because this is I mean

00:30:15   Half of it is make a really good game

00:30:17   And the other half is make it make a really good game that happens to get some traction in the market

00:30:22   And you kind of need both of those

00:30:24   But making a really good game helps a lot

00:30:26   Yeah, definitely and like you said it is a happy story and and that really does make me feel good for not having paid

00:30:32   I hate anything

00:30:33   You know, I still haven't paid anything for it because I don't I just play with the black sheep all the time

00:30:37   I want it in a gumball machine nice. I should I should give some money for it eventually

00:30:42   I don't know and and no one in my family's paid for it

00:30:44   none of my kids have paid my wife has found out that when you get the

00:30:48   The trial thing where it shows you hey try out these three characters for a limited time

00:30:52   She tells me that when they offer them to you the discounted price

00:30:56   that you can pay for them with the little coins that you get for free so you don't have to put any actual money in it

00:31:01   And you can still quote unquote buy the characters that are offered to you for trial

00:31:05   Which is yet another way that they're not getting money from you

00:31:08   It's like pick up these fake coins in the game and use the fake coins to buy the characters

00:31:12   No real money ever passes to us at all. Yeah, it really is surprising but it shows that it can be done

00:31:18   Which is which is really exciting tell us about your PlayStation 4 in DLNA support

00:31:23   Yeah, I was complaining about how crappy the ps4 is media center features are compared to the ps3

00:31:29   That was kind of part of the fact that the ps4 was like no, this is a game machine

00:31:34   It's not a media center like the Xbox one like it's kind of a differentiator

00:31:37   It's also probably a prior prioritization thing where like Sony was concentrating on making the best consoles or playing games hardware wise

00:31:43   And if that's your priority you're gonna put all the other stuff off

00:31:46   Alberto, Sandra sent a tweet that said the rumor is that

00:31:52   DLNA support is coming in early 2015 and that the holdup was it was waiting for a final

00:31:56   Certification on a new DLNA spec so that could have been also another reason it was being delayed

00:32:00   But I'm glad to hear that it's coming

00:32:02   And Benu was the first person to tweet at me the story

00:32:05   That Plex is coming to the ps4 in fact depending on what country we live in it may already be out for the ps4

00:32:11   It's not out yet for the US because as Plex says on the link we'll put in the show notes

00:32:18   Sony has multiple business units to cover different regions and each of the business units need to approve the app

00:32:22   And so the approval processes don't all go in sync and I think Sony's probably also preoccupied with things at this point

00:32:28   Anyway, we're waiting for them to approve the Plex app for the US store and once that is available

00:32:34   I don't know if it's gonna be free or pay or what but anyway Plex will be on the ps4 which kind of makes sense

00:32:38   It's an Intel processor and Plex is available for a million other things anyway, so

00:32:43   Multiple media related features are on their way for the ps4 and I'm happy about it

00:32:48   And we never found a compatible Bluetooth remote did we?

00:32:52   No one sent one I asked and no one has sent me any tweets or anything although a couple people have said their harmony remote

00:32:57   Works with it if you want to buy a harmony remote well didn't world in the chat says apologies for recommending the harmony apparently

00:33:04   It's limited aka no playback controls

00:33:06   Other people have tweeted at me that like there are if someone said hey

00:33:09   I use my harmony with it, and I tweeted them which mod

00:33:12   What's the exact model that you have and didn't get a reply?

00:33:14   I mean there are like I said there are IR solutions where you can buy a little you know

00:33:19   USB IR dongle or something and shove it in there and then but all those get bad reviews

00:33:22   and I don't want that anyway, but yeah, no no rumors of a media remote yet, but

00:33:26   I'll get the media center features first I guess

00:33:30   In the last episode I think it was or certainly recently we talked about Twitter ad creepiness, and this was spoken about

00:33:39   kind of violently on a recent episode of connected on relay FM and

00:33:44   A little birdie told us

00:33:46   That they had Twitter in their offices for a few hours in the last couple of weeks and supposedly Twitter said

00:33:53   They had over 20 million devices that opted into that creepy thing where the Twitter app will scan

00:34:00   What other apps are on your device?

00:34:02   So if you hear if you have the latest Twitter app

00:34:06   Version you could have opted out of this apparently I have never I haven't run the official Twitter app in ages

00:34:12   But the little like cancel or X or whatever was so small that everyone

00:34:18   Literally just missed it but apparently according to Twitter according to this little birdie

00:34:24   The it was done

00:34:26   entirely to build up some new ad targeting capability the rolling out next year and

00:34:31   With regard to what John was saying about well

00:34:35   well, maybe Apple's gonna do something about this,

00:34:39   but either because Twitter's big

00:34:41   or maybe they can't because Twitter is big,

00:34:43   well, apparently they're the number five

00:34:45   globally ranked iOS app,

00:34:46   and so Apple is extremely aware of what Twitter is up to.

00:34:51   All that from a little birdie.

00:34:53   - Aware, but then it's like, okay, so are they talking?

00:34:55   They're like, you know,

00:34:56   because like I said, they're not gonna just be like,

00:34:57   well, you know, some mid-level person,

00:34:59   that's just gonna pull the Twitter app.

00:35:01   That sounds like these are gonna be

00:35:02   more higher level negotiations between the companies

00:35:04   to discuss what their app is doing and to work out something.

00:35:07   I'm hoping that's happening now.

00:35:08   If it's not, then Apple is dropping the ball

00:35:10   because they're just not paying attention.

00:35:12   You know, or they see it happening and don't care

00:35:14   and figure, well, people don't know,

00:35:16   but I don't know, I can't fathom the strategy.

00:35:19   Like it's so, this whole thing is just so at odds

00:35:21   with everything else they do.

00:35:23   We just talked about the Apple Pay stuff

00:35:24   and how it's not sending even the information

00:35:27   Casey would like to share with the Apple Store.

00:35:29   It's just, you know, complete anonymity.

00:35:32   And you know, we don't collect your data.

00:35:33   we won't let the NSA look at your messages,

00:35:35   you know, all this stuff and then,

00:35:37   but we'll let the Twitter app scan every app on your thing

00:35:40   and report back for ad targeting.

00:35:41   Like that just seems crazy.

00:35:43   - Well, and it's important to clarify too,

00:35:45   that it isn't just Twitter that does this.

00:35:48   There are lots of other,

00:35:49   there are ad packages out there, ad analytics packages

00:35:51   that many apps integrate that do the same kind of like

00:35:55   super creepy scanning for all the apps

00:35:57   you have installed thing.

00:35:58   And that's why I think really,

00:36:00   I think Apple should care about this problem

00:36:02   because as I said last week, it does violate

00:36:05   the perceived walls that exist between apps and iOS.

00:36:09   Like, I as a user assume that apps can't creep on each other,

00:36:14   like that they can't look around

00:36:15   and see everything else on your system.

00:36:17   And they can't see your data,

00:36:19   but even the list of apps you have installed,

00:36:22   that can do things like probably pretty easily

00:36:25   uniquely identify you within like maybe an IP range,

00:36:28   and so all these different things Apple's trying to do

00:36:30   to reduce the ways they can uniquely identify you

00:36:33   between app installs, those are out the window,

00:36:35   or between apps from the same vendor,

00:36:36   those are all out the window,

00:36:37   all the advertising identifier stuff.

00:36:39   So Apple has done things in this area before

00:36:42   that show that they care about this problem.

00:36:43   I would say this is a similar facet to that problem

00:36:47   of user privacy expectations and device tracking

00:36:51   and uniqueness there.

00:36:53   And so I hope Apple is thinking about taking steps

00:36:56   in the OS to make this technically impossible,

00:36:59   or at least substantially more limited than how it is now.

00:37:03   Anyway, also related to this, I said last week

00:37:07   that in iOS 7 and forward,

00:37:08   MAC addresses were returned as all zeros.

00:37:10   The best QA engineer I've ever met, Nick Arnott,

00:37:14   who knows how to break everything that I write,

00:37:16   also broke that statement.

00:37:18   Points out that that's close,

00:37:22   but it's actually zero two followed by all zeros.

00:37:26   So there's mostly zeros,

00:37:27   that there's a single two in there.

00:37:29   Thank you to Nick Arnott for finding a little bug

00:37:32   in something I said once again.

00:37:33   - Mostly zeros means slightly non-zero.

00:37:36   - Something like that.

00:37:38   - Yeah, I don't know what that's from.

00:37:39   - It's all right.

00:37:41   - Sorry.

00:37:42   - I got nothing.

00:37:42   - I haven't done one of those in a while.

00:37:45   - All right.

00:37:46   John, why don't you tell us about

00:37:49   the Google Authenticator app that you are overjoyed with?

00:37:53   - Two groups of three.

00:37:55   So this is the Google Authenticator app that you run

00:37:58   that gives you your little time-based

00:38:01   two-factor authentication code.

00:38:02   It's just got a set of a six-digit number

00:38:04   that changes every 30 seconds or whatever the interval is.

00:38:08   And so when you log in with two-factor authentication,

00:38:10   you put in your name and your password,

00:38:11   and then it gives you a challenge.

00:38:12   It says enter your code, then you take your trusted device,

00:38:14   like your phone or whatever,

00:38:16   and you read this number off of it.

00:38:17   And it's a six-digit number,

00:38:18   and if you read this number off

00:38:20   and type it in a lot of boxes,

00:38:22   as you tend to do when you first enable it,

00:38:25   it's not so bad after that.

00:38:27   You'll find it annoying that you have

00:38:29   to transcribe a six digit number under mild time pressure.

00:38:33   Although some iOS apps make it worse,

00:38:35   because I've just recently used an iOS app where it challenges

00:38:39   you with the code.

00:38:40   But if your Google Authenticator is on the same device,

00:38:42   of course, then you have to either double tap home

00:38:44   if it's in the multitasking switcher,

00:38:45   or single tap home to go to the Google Authenticator app

00:38:48   to get the number.

00:38:49   Look at the number.

00:38:51   Now you have to memorize the number,

00:38:52   because you have to switch back to the other app.

00:38:54   you memorize the number, switch back to the other app.

00:38:57   And when I would do that with this one app,

00:38:59   I forget what it was.

00:39:01   I would resume the other app

00:39:02   and it would immediately take me back

00:39:04   to the username and password screen.

00:39:06   Away from the, and so then I was under a time pressure

00:39:09   based on how much time was left

00:39:10   to enter on the iOS keyboard with no auto-complete

00:39:13   my username and my password, which are pretty darn long,

00:39:16   and then enter that six digit code.

00:39:18   But my complaint many, many shows ago,

00:39:20   I don't remember when,

00:39:21   was that Google Authenticator app

00:39:23   presents a six digit number

00:39:25   and does not present it as two groups of three numbers.

00:39:27   It just is a six digit number all stuck together,

00:39:30   which is crazy because it's like the USB connector

00:39:33   and all these other things.

00:39:34   It's like, if your job is to make this application,

00:39:37   and if what this application does

00:39:38   is display a six digit number,

00:39:40   what are you even thinking about?

00:39:44   Is it, how can I do my job well?

00:39:45   Think for, your only job is to display a number.

00:39:48   Your only job is to make a connector.

00:39:50   Like what is it that makes a good connector?

00:39:51   What is it that makes it easy to look at

00:39:53   and transcribe a three digit number?

00:39:55   You always break bit long numbers into groups.

00:39:57   What do you think?

00:39:57   Credit card numbers are broken up into groups of four.

00:39:59   Like phone numbers,

00:40:00   like you don't just put all the numbers together.

00:40:02   Six is too many.

00:40:03   So anyway,

00:40:04   (laughing)

00:40:05   Alexandre Duhill tweeted at me

00:40:07   that the new update to the Google Authenticator app

00:40:10   has two groups of three numbers, finally.

00:40:12   And then later in the day, Romain, what is his last name?

00:40:16   Moisescat?

00:40:17   Is that the same as Moises Chuyen?

00:40:19   But different, anyway.

00:40:21   Romain said that when I worked at Google last year, after listening to one of your podcasts,

00:40:25   I filed a feature request for breaking out the digits in Google Authenticator iOS app.

00:40:29   Glad to see they finally paid out.

00:40:31   So whether this was directly in relation to his feature request or not, I thank Romain

00:40:35   greatly for connecting the dots, connecting my complaining to an actual feature request

00:40:40   inside Google, and then many months later, now finally, I get two groups of three numbers.

00:40:46   That is fantastic.

00:40:48   So your life is complete.

00:40:50   is right in the world. Well, let's not go crazy. I get annoyed about these things all out of

00:40:54   proportion because, and people posting a link to youhadonejob.org, it's not kind of like you

00:40:59   had one job, but just like if you think at all about doing some simple job well, like if you

00:41:05   had to put on a big whiteboard, okay, what are the things that contribute to me doing my job well,

00:41:10   like on the connector? What are the properties of a good connector versus bad? Just even just think

00:41:14   about it for a second unless like the top five, like a family feud or whatever, you know, it's,

00:41:18   And for showing numbers, like there's not that many things.

00:41:21   Make sure the numbers are readable.

00:41:22   Like it's just numbers.

00:41:23   You don't have to worry about like does the O look

00:41:24   like a zero or any other.

00:41:26   Just all you've got is numbers.

00:41:28   And you don't have to pick anything else about it.

00:41:29   It's already six digits.

00:41:30   You know everything about it.

00:41:32   They did stuff like make it flash red

00:41:33   when it's about to expire, like all subtle things like that.

00:41:36   But nowhere did they think, you know what?

00:41:37   Six digits shoved all together is kind of hard to transcribe

00:41:40   or memorize or read easily.

00:41:41   We do two groups of three, it'll be a lot easier.

00:41:44   And it's not like people are unfamiliar with grouping.

00:41:45   I don't know.

00:41:46   Anyway, it's done now.

00:41:47   I'm done complaining.

00:41:48   happy. And I will preemptively say once again, everyone who thinks I should not be using

00:41:54   Google Authenticator and I should be using whatever their favorite app is, I know about

00:41:57   it.

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00:44:02   'Cause you get, I think it's two a year, is that right?

00:44:07   - I think that's right, but I'm not sure.

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00:46:02   My GR in the chat room reminds me that if I'm doing the authentication code on iOS,

00:46:06   I can just copy and paste the code rather than memorizing it.

00:46:11   So accustomed to only using the authenticator app to enter it on my Mac or something, and

00:46:15   yes I know I can use a copy/paste synchronization utility.

00:46:17   I keep meaning to check out one of those because that frustrates me a lot, like when I have

00:46:21   something on my iOS device that I want to transfer to my Mac.

00:46:23   I know there's a million utilities that do that synchronization, but I never quite get

00:46:27   around to loading one.

00:46:28   But anyway.

00:46:29   Because I've also I've always intended to set something like that up and just never actually do it

00:46:33   Well, whatever happened to pay spot because that was amazing when it first came out and I don't even think it works anymore

00:46:38   Well originally the problem they had was that you had to go launch pay spot in order to get it to to copy because like

00:46:45   I remember they were the ones I believe yeah who did the silence. Yeah. Yeah, that's right

00:46:49   Try to keep running in the background

00:46:50   But now that's not a problem anymore and I assume all the good ones out there just you know

00:46:53   Do it as a background thing. Well, you still can't know you still are not running in the background constantly

00:46:57   unless you're playing audio.

00:46:58   Like I could build that into Overcast as a feature.

00:47:02   If you happen to be playing a podcast,

00:47:04   it'll continuously sync your clipboard to something.

00:47:07   - But you could use it as an extension.

00:47:08   I was saying you just flick up or go to, you know,

00:47:10   like it seems like there's other ways to do it

00:47:12   as a Today Center widget and watch Apple reject you.

00:47:15   - Yeah.

00:47:15   - So let's talk about hockey and I don't mean the sport.

00:47:20   So Microsoft acquired HockeyApp

00:47:23   And that's weird, but kind of awesome.

00:47:27   Um, I really like the.

00:47:29   Microsoft that, um, Azure like has spawned from in so far as they're not

00:47:37   the old guard where if it's not windows and not office, then get the crap out of

00:47:42   here, it's the new where we are all things to all people kind of Microsoft.

00:47:46   And I'm not sure what the play is with regard to hockey app, but I like the

00:47:51   thinking there. I like the idea and I think it's a really good idea that could fit in really well

00:47:58   with their existing Azure mobile services offerings. So I really dig it in principle,

00:48:03   but I was curious to hear what the two of you, especially Marco, thought about this.

00:48:07   Can you, before Marco chimes in, can you explain it to me? Because I know HockeyApp only because

00:48:12   I've been on betas that use HockeyApp to distribute the beta versions of their iOS apps to me,

00:48:17   but I don't understand what Microsoft would do with this.

00:48:21   Do they distribute beta versions of Windows phone apps?

00:48:24   Does the hockey already do that?

00:48:26   I don't understand the synergy here at all.

00:48:28   (laughing)

00:48:29   But I confess that I just don't know what hockey app,

00:48:31   maybe I just don't know what hockey app does

00:48:33   besides what I've used it for,

00:48:34   which is install betas on iOS.

00:48:35   - And to be clear, that's all I've used it for.

00:48:37   But the way I'm theorizing this is that

00:48:40   Microsoft is kind of quietly,

00:48:42   especially with Azure specifically,

00:48:43   trying to be kind of a one-stop shop

00:48:45   for all, all the backend stuff with regard to mobile apps.

00:48:48   So mobile services, um, Seems to do a really good job with, you know, Hey,

00:48:54   we'll give you a decent API to do some basic stuff.

00:48:58   Like I think that you can, they give you an API that'll make it really easy to do

00:49:02   user accounts based off of Twitter or Facebook.

00:49:05   Um, they make, there's a bunch of other things that they've, they've got in there.

00:49:09   I haven't looked at it in a while, but my guess is they're trying to make it so that

00:49:13   if you're writing like, let's say I thought about writing a shared grocery list app, and

00:49:19   I don't want any more recommendations of what to use.

00:49:21   I've got it under control.

00:49:23   But in the same way, john doesn't need any more recommendations about two factor stuff.

00:49:27   Well, anyway, I'd like to write that sort of app, but I need to have a way of doing

00:49:32   user accounts, I need to have a database back end, I need to have some sort of web based

00:49:37   API, and I would need to distribute beta builds.

00:49:40   Well, three of these things I could do on Azure and the beta builds I'll soon be able to do on

00:49:46   Azure if that's what envelops HockeyApp. So I'm assuming they're trying to be a one-stop shop

00:49:52   for anything that isn't on the device that your mobile app would need in order to be successful.

00:49:57   But like, isn't this is the type of play where that Apple doesn't play nice with anymore,

00:50:03   which is if you're doing something that is like a platform function, like I want to write

00:50:10   a compiler that lets you build iOS apps or I want to, you know, write something that

00:50:15   lets you manage the assets for your application or build your interfaces or anything having

00:50:20   to do with the development stack.

00:50:22   Apple wants to own the ID, they made their own compiler, like they own all the tools,

00:50:28   you know, verification tools, code signing tools, like it's all Apple stuff and beta

00:50:33   distribution, Apple bought test flight, you know, and before that like it's just

00:50:36   not that Apple's gonna go out of their way to break HockeyApp now because they

00:50:39   didn't before anyway and it's relying on technologies that Apple is making it but

00:50:44   if you're I would not sign up to try to make a tool that supports the Apple

00:50:51   ecosystem for developing applications because I would just know that even if

00:50:56   I'm allowed to live my time is limited because either Apple will start making a

00:51:00   free competitor to me or they'll do something that breaks my thing without

00:51:05   any pity because they'd be like look you should never been making that in the

00:51:08   first place not intentionally but it'll just happen like that is a that is a

00:51:11   very dangerous business to be in these days it's you know I mean I guess it's okay for

00:51:16   Microsoft because what do they care they get enough revenue to support this type

00:51:19   of effort but I mean I guess that's kind of part of the acquisitions like once

00:51:23   Apple bought test flight it's like well Apple has decided what they're gonna do

00:51:26   about this because there was a you know there was these third-party utilities

00:51:29   that Apple wasn't doing.

00:51:31   So Apple could have developed their own thing in house

00:51:32   or they could have bought somebody.

00:51:33   When they buy somebody, HockeyApp had to say,

00:51:35   well, they bought somebody and it wasn't us.

00:51:37   So now it's time to sell to whoever else wants to buy us.

00:51:39   And I guess that's Microsoft.

00:51:42   - Yeah, I mean, it's important to point out,

00:51:44   Hockey does other things beyond just the beta stuff.

00:51:47   For instance, they have, they're a crash reporting tool

00:51:51   and that creates all the crash logs

00:51:53   and it sends it in from the app and everything.

00:51:56   And they also have, you know,

00:51:58   obviously the cross-platform stuff.

00:51:59   So there is still some value even if they can't develop betas to Apple anymore, or they

00:52:06   can't ship betas to Apple devices anymore.

00:52:08   It's less value, certainly, and they are never going to be able to match what the new Apple

00:52:13   TestFlight does, because the new Apple TestFlight completely does away with the annoying UDIDs,

00:52:18   and you just get email address people, and it lets them install your app on all their

00:52:23   devices.

00:52:24   Well, they have the advantage that they'll hopefully be able to be more reliable and

00:52:27   responsive than Apple, because—

00:52:28   - Right, so right now,

00:52:29   so as soon as Apple Test Flight thing came out,

00:52:32   I canceled my hockey plan.

00:52:34   And I said, I'm never gonna use this again

00:52:35   because I don't need it for the crash reporting

00:52:37   'cause the other thing is,

00:52:39   I use Crashlytics for my crash reporting.

00:52:41   Crashlytics also has a beta shipping product.

00:52:44   They also have analytics and Twitter bought them.

00:52:48   - Don't you think crash reporting

00:52:49   is in this exact same category?

00:52:51   Like I want nice, symbolic crash reports

00:52:54   with all sorts of information.

00:52:56   iOS doesn't provide it for me natively.

00:52:58   I'll use Crashlytics, right?

00:52:59   Like that's exactly the type of tool

00:53:01   that it's like something that Apple should do.

00:53:02   There's a gap, a third party comes in to fill that gap,

00:53:05   is able to succeed until and unless Apple either buys them,

00:53:09   buys a competitor or does something else

00:53:11   that makes it so that everybody stops using them

00:53:15   and uses whatever Apple has officially blessed.

00:53:17   - In theory, yes.

00:53:18   In practice, most of the time Apple does things like this,

00:53:22   the Apple version sucks.

00:53:24   That was the case with the crash reporter.

00:53:25   - You're right, the Apple version often does suck,

00:53:27   But once the Apple version exists at all,

00:53:30   then there's even greater chance that

00:53:33   the way the third parties are doing it will

00:53:36   become less supported or break or whatever.

00:53:38   Because Apple then has a good story like,

00:53:40   "Oh, we're sorry, we didn't mean to break that,"

00:53:42   or whatever, but it's not really a high priority

00:53:44   for us to make sure that Crashlytics keeps working

00:53:46   because we do have our own offering,

00:53:47   and have you checked it out,

00:53:48   and then you can say, "Yeah, but your thing sucks."

00:53:51   - No, but I mean, theoretically,

00:53:52   that's been the case for a long time.

00:53:53   But in practice, like,

00:53:56   iTunes Connect has included crash logs since before Crashlytics has existed.

00:54:02   Since all of these crash loggers that came out, all have come out after Apple has included

00:54:07   crash logs in iTunes Connect.

00:54:08   Originally the iTunes Connect crash logs were delayed by like a week and they were never

00:54:13   symbolicated.

00:54:14   You had to like download them and symbolicate them yourself.

00:54:16   And I think some of that has been approved since then, but it's still... also they have

00:54:21   to abide by the system setting that says, "Do you want to send diagnostics to Apple?"

00:54:26   app developers. And if users say no to that, you won't get crash logs from them through

00:54:30   iTunes Connect, but your app doesn't know about that setting, it can't read that setting

00:54:33   even if you wanted to, and so your app bypasses that. And any crash logger that you embed

00:54:40   in the app, like Crashlytics or Hockey, those will send it regardless. So you're getting

00:54:45   more data from more people faster.

00:54:47   Yeah, you're just hoping with those type of tools that you are below the note—this feature

00:54:51   is below the notice of Apple. Like, Apple has bigger fish to fry, they're not going

00:54:55   to worry about making a much better crash reporting thing because they have something

00:54:58   there and you know like on their priority list it's really low down.

00:55:03   eventually you have to think they will get to it and this is the history of mac software

00:55:06   has been some third party makes something cool and it seems like apple will never do

00:55:11   something like that or is not interested in something like that.

00:55:14   sometimes these little things get snapped up relatively quickly like for the old timers

00:55:18   out there the clock in the menu bar was a third party application and fairly quickly

00:55:24   I think it was maybe it was less than a year. Maybe it was only a couple years but fairly quickly apple said

00:55:29   Hey clock the menu bar is a good idea. We should build that into the OS. All right, so that's the end of

00:55:35   You know, I'm not the end of third-party clocks in the menu bars

00:55:38   But for most people at the end of third party locks and menu visit people let us use the built-in one, right?

00:55:42   And other times there'll be something that third parties make

00:55:47   That everybody loves that Apple just doesn't do for years and years and years either because they they're just like

00:55:53   Philosophically opposed to it or because it's a frivolous thing that they're not they don't care that much about it

00:55:59   They have much higher priorities the crash reporting. It seems to me that

00:56:02   Eventually, they'll get around to making their crash reporting thing better

00:56:08   So it's closer to the best third party ones out there

00:56:11   But it hasn't happened in what how many you know, how many years of these things been out a couple years like six

00:56:15   It's been a lot of years

00:56:17   So it must be I mean

00:56:18   To be fair if you had to make a prioritized list of things that Apple has to work on in terms of developing for the Mac

00:56:23   and iOS you probably wouldn't put crash reporting very high unless either you probably put things like code signing and

00:56:27   provisioning and and beta stuff, I mean so test flight is obviously

00:56:32   the better thing to be concentrating on right now, but

00:56:35   It's difficult business the range between

00:56:38   Like what?

00:56:40   What's the what's the best third-party crash reporter that you that is possible to build given the structure that we have in iOS

00:56:47   versus what's the best crash reporter Apple can or is likely to ever build?

00:56:51   Like there isn't a whole lot of room for improvement there. The crash reporter is like between hockey and Crashlytics

00:56:57   I've used them both now. I first used hockey for Rivercast during the beta and then I switched over to Crashlytics

00:57:01   It's I'd say they're

00:57:05   Pretty much the same in the in the quality of the crashes they report and how they do that that role

00:57:09   Like there's only so so much you can do there

00:57:12   Realistically speaking with with the way the runtime works and everything. So that's all fine

00:57:16   So getting back to the topic of why Microsoft would want to buy Hoggy, I think the fact

00:57:23   is simple.

00:57:24   This is a multi-tool company.

00:57:27   They have multiple tools that support developers.

00:57:29   Twitter bought Crashlytics for the same reason.

00:57:32   Twitter bought Crashlytics because Twitter wanted to own a developer tools platform.

00:57:36   It gives them a lot of useful analytics.

00:57:38   It gives them a lot of in's with developers to sell their other SDK services on.

00:57:44   Microsoft wants the same thing.

00:57:46   That's what they're going for here.

00:57:47   They're going for developer tools.

00:57:49   And I think it's a good move for that.

00:57:52   The beta thing is basically, it's almost worthless now, where the beta thing is nice with hockey.

00:57:58   And the reason why I'm about to sign up with them again probably is the Apple TestFlight

00:58:04   beta occasionally requires app review.

00:58:08   And that makes it pretty inflexible.

00:58:11   And there's a limit of only two betas per day and everything else.

00:58:14   there's all these little limits and delays in place because it's Apple, and I've had

00:58:19   a build of Overcast sitting there for six days with nothing. It's in review, it isn't

00:58:25   even waiting for review, it's been in review for six days, a beta. So I can't cancel it,

00:58:29   I can't upload a new version, like my testing process has just stopped. Like it has completely

00:58:34   stalled for six days because something is wrong with Apple, and I'm sure it's going

00:58:39   into the holiday iTunes Connect shutdown in a few days, and I can't ship new versions.

00:58:45   I can't even ship versions to testers right now.

00:58:48   That's really crummy.

00:58:49   This is not confirmation of, but it's like the worst nightmare for the people who said

00:58:55   that Apple's going to buy a test flight and they're going to ruin it.

00:58:58   No, I mean, but so, you know, the Apple version of beta testing is way better than what third

00:59:03   parties can do.

00:59:04   When it works.

00:59:05   Yeah.

00:59:06   But what third parties can do is not useless.

00:59:08   It's not worthless, it's just not nearly as good

00:59:11   in the core function there.

00:59:14   But there is still value.

00:59:16   If you're shipping an app on iOS and Android

00:59:18   and Windows Phone, from what we hear,

00:59:21   Microsoft is getting into the cross-platform

00:59:23   developer tools game.

00:59:24   Somewhere, I don't know if it was a rumor

00:59:26   or if it was actual news, somewhere there was a thing

00:59:29   that said that early next year, Microsoft is gonna be,

00:59:34   or I don't know when, but sometime soon,

00:59:36   Microsoft is going to be releasing new Visual Studio type stuff that will be able to cross-compile

00:59:41   the same app onto all three platforms.

00:59:44   And that would be really cool.

00:59:45   A lot of developers will use that.

00:59:47   I mean, there are tools that do cross-platform stuff now, but from what I gather, none of

00:59:50   them are particularly good.

00:59:52   So if that's the business Microsoft is going into, I think it's a very smart business.

00:59:55   And hockey plays right into that, because with hockey, then, you can have testers on

01:00:00   all three platforms.

01:00:03   You can have like, you know, 10 people on iOS,

01:00:06   20 people on Android, and you can get the one guy

01:00:08   who uses Windows Phone, probably also,

01:00:10   he's probably also the Opera user.

01:00:11   If you're developing them together

01:00:13   with this Microsoft Stack, it makes sense

01:00:16   to be able to test them together

01:00:17   and be able to collect crashes from them together

01:00:19   and all this stuff.

01:00:20   Like, so, from that point of view,

01:00:22   it makes a lot of sense why they would want it.

01:00:25   - Well, and also consider that they're, you know,

01:00:27   open-sourcing .NET and really embracing Mono and Xamarin

01:00:31   even more than they ever have before.

01:00:33   So it certainly, this all seems to indicate to me,

01:00:37   just like you said, Marco, that they're kinda going all in

01:00:41   on being the developer platform for all people

01:00:44   for all platforms, you know what I mean.

01:00:46   - Is that, do we know, is that true?

01:00:48   - Aren't we kinda being the developer platform

01:00:52   for all people if what you want to make

01:00:54   is a kind of mediocre app for all platforms?

01:00:57   Like not mediocre, like, kinda middle of the road,

01:01:00   because they have to vend functionality

01:01:02   that is platform agnostic.

01:01:03   And so that means, I mean, I guess the server side things,

01:01:06   it makes sense because it's always platform agnostic.

01:01:08   At least you want it to be.

01:01:09   That's the benefit of Azure is their best bet

01:01:12   because it's like, I don't want my backend

01:01:13   to be tied to one platform.

01:01:14   It's the whole point of it.

01:01:15   I want it to be accessible from the web, Mac, blah, blah,

01:01:17   blah, but almost everything else, it's like,

01:01:19   I don't know, it's not write once, run anywhere,

01:01:23   but kind of, you really have to buy into

01:01:26   the native structures of the individual platforms

01:01:29   to make a really great app on the individual platforms.

01:01:32   The only exceptions are backend services

01:01:33   and things like games that are like,

01:01:35   I don't care about your platform.

01:01:36   I control the whole screen, I'm a game.

01:01:39   And so that's why you have things like, you know,

01:01:40   the middleware for games and stuff.

01:01:42   But everything else, like I wonder how much of a,

01:01:45   if that's their strategy, say they succeed.

01:01:46   It's like now we are the biggest and best middleware vendor

01:01:51   for mobile applications.

01:01:53   Is that a big win?

01:01:55   Like, I still feel like that's,

01:01:57   that entire business is kind of in the middle of,

01:02:01   I was gonna say, in the middle of a bunch of hungry tigers,

01:02:03   if we're going, continuing with animal analogies,

01:02:06   'cause you've got all the actual platform,

01:02:08   like, it just seems like Microsoft would be better off

01:02:13   if they were in Samsung's position

01:02:14   and Windows Phone was, you know, a big dominant platform.

01:02:17   Then they can make Windows Phone

01:02:19   and Windows Phone apps really awesome

01:02:20   instead of worrying about creating technologies

01:02:22   to help people make their mobile apps

01:02:24   on other people's platforms better.

01:02:26   - Yeah, but if you look at the position Microsoft is in,

01:02:29   like in reality, which I think, you know,

01:02:31   the problem with them in the later part of the Ballmer years

01:02:34   is that they weren't really looking at their reality,

01:02:36   or they were creating an even worse reality for themselves.

01:02:39   But if you look at the position they're actually in today,

01:02:42   I think this is a very smart move.

01:02:43   You know, like they've already shown that they are,

01:02:47   they have built no market share whatsoever,

01:02:52   realistically, in the new world of mobile at all.

01:02:55   And even their PC business is, it's not gonna go away,

01:02:59   but I think the growth is certainly gone.

01:03:03   And so there's a problem there.

01:03:05   And the whole move to Azure as a company focus,

01:03:08   having the guy who ran Azure become the new CEO,

01:03:12   this is a sign, like Microsoft is recognizing

01:03:15   not only a good business to be in,

01:03:18   but probably the best business that they can be in.

01:03:22   because their attempts at being otherwise have not worked.

01:03:27   And there are certain, in some ways it's too late.

01:03:30   No matter what they do to Windows Phone,

01:03:33   it is not gonna be significant.

01:03:35   Windows Phone has missed its window.

01:03:36   - I was gonna say it's never too late,

01:03:37   not for Windows Phone specifically,

01:03:38   but first of all, Windows Phone is not bad.

01:03:40   - It's always too late for Windows Phone.

01:03:41   - No, Windows Phone is not bad.

01:03:44   The hardware and the software is not bad.

01:03:47   But even if you agree that it's better,

01:03:50   they're in a Mac-like situation

01:03:51   or Apple was making better personal computers

01:03:53   with better software for years, but nobody cared

01:03:55   because it wasn't better enough

01:03:57   or because it was too expensive

01:03:58   or whatever other excuses you wanna make, right?

01:04:00   But you can't say like, well, there's no hope

01:04:02   because there was hope.

01:04:04   Like all, I guess all things to do

01:04:07   is make a translucent teal phone

01:04:09   and they're all set, right?

01:04:10   And you know, there's always hope to turn things around.

01:04:13   It seemed like the Mac couldn't get anywhere

01:04:16   and was never going to succeed,

01:04:17   but it's quote unquote succeeded

01:04:20   by A, having the iMac turn things around,

01:04:22   and B, hanging in there long enough

01:04:24   for everyone else to get destroyed,

01:04:25   and they're left with the only remaining paying customers

01:04:28   who pay a lot of money for their computers, right?

01:04:30   But then they also did the iPod and the iPhone, right?

01:04:32   And those are not the Mac, but they're similar

01:04:35   in that they're their own proprietary platforms

01:04:37   that Apple made.

01:04:38   And what I'm saying is, Microsoft still has the skillset

01:04:42   to make very competitive hardware and software products

01:04:47   like the PC was and like all the things that Apple makes.

01:04:51   It just so happens that the Windows Phone,

01:04:53   their timing was terrible

01:04:54   and two big competitors got there before them

01:04:57   and now they're kind of stuck and it's kind of unfair.

01:05:00   Windows Phone is not succeeding in proportion to its quality.

01:05:03   It's succeeding in proportion to its timing more or less.

01:05:06   But I wouldn't give up on that entirely

01:05:09   because it's kind of like Steve Jobs coming back to Apple

01:05:11   and saying, "Well, we lost the PC wars.

01:05:13   So what we really need to do is concentrate

01:05:15   on some business that is not like this.

01:05:17   We can't make a hardware software integrated product

01:05:19   like we were trying to with the Mac.

01:05:20   We should do something entirely different,

01:05:21   but become like a services company or whatever.

01:05:24   And it's weird with Microsoft

01:05:26   because Microsoft has so many different skills.

01:05:28   They're good at services.

01:05:29   They're good at hardware.

01:05:29   They're good at software.

01:05:30   They're doing a game console for

01:05:30   They're doing a game console for ground. They're good at so many different things

01:05:33   It's harder to know what to focus on but when Steve Jobs came back to Apple

01:05:37   He said no a we can make the Mac

01:05:39   Like people take notice of that again with the I'm I can be we can think of something new

01:05:43   That is very much like the Mac a hardware and software product

01:05:46   Integrated it takes advantage of all the things that quote unquote only Apple can do and all that stuff and then the iPhone the iPad

01:05:52   and so on and so forth like

01:05:53   Steve Jobs took a company that was failing to get traction with one product and made it

01:05:58   Get traction with products that are exactly the same like exactly the same strategy

01:06:02   Just just better executed and better timing and if Microsoft says well

01:06:05   I guess we can't be that company that we were now. We have to be a services company

01:06:10   There's some reputation

01:06:12   Management, you know resurrecting the reputation as people thinking Microsoft is cool and developers liking it and sort of the you know

01:06:18   The alpha geeks as we used to say when OS 10 was becoming popular the alpha geeks finally paying attention to Microsoft again

01:06:24   That's good. And if that's a good business for them fine, but I would not like to see Microsoft give up on

01:06:30   doing something else like Windows Phone and

01:06:33   Having that succeed because they don't wait, you know five years before they get off their butts and do something good

01:06:39   So, I don't know

01:06:42   it kind of scares me that

01:06:44   this sort of

01:06:47   Microsoft does become a

01:06:49   The Azure company or the company that does that type of stuff plus I guess exchange and SQL Server and stuff like that

01:06:54   that will be a sad end for the company.

01:06:56   I'd rather see them do more things like Windows Phone,

01:06:59   but better.

01:07:00   - Well, I don't think they're gonna lose control

01:07:02   of their software platforms.

01:07:04   I just think they're gonna become less and less relevant

01:07:07   over time.

01:07:07   And they're always gonna be there in the same way,

01:07:10   like IBM, I think still has a mainframe business,

01:07:13   but like it's, and I don't think it's gonna be that bad.

01:07:16   - No, but IBM is the worst example.

01:07:17   They're selling everything.

01:07:19   They even sold their x86 server business.

01:07:21   Aren't they doing that now?

01:07:21   Like they got rid of their PCs, the servers,

01:07:23   the mainframes are like all that's left and yeah, no, I don't, IBM is exactly what I don't

01:07:28   want Microsoft to become.

01:07:29   Right, but I'm saying like, like there are, there are healthy businesses in the computer

01:07:32   world like printers, you know, like printers are always going to exist, but they're just

01:07:38   going to get increasingly less and less important over time. They're already pretty much completely

01:07:42   forgettable and unmentionable. This is probably the first time you've heard about a printer

01:07:46   and that's, you know, no big deal, it doesn't matter.

01:07:50   You know, if that's where Windows and Office

01:07:55   and Windows Phone go, that's fine.

01:07:57   That's not a huge deal.

01:07:59   Like, they can be used every day by millions of people

01:08:03   and be completely unmemorable

01:08:05   and unimportant to the business.

01:08:06   - Microsoft should sell Office and Windows to Samsung

01:08:09   to destroy the company, to destroy Samsung.

01:08:11   Like as a virus, 'cause they'll be like, this is awesome.

01:08:14   You know, we're gonna have,

01:08:15   We're gonna own Microsoft Windows and Office those things are great and like trying to maintain

01:08:19   And work on that code base for products that people don't really like anymore

01:08:23   like that will just

01:08:25   It will distract and crush Samsung and then Microsoft can beat them to market with whatever the next big thing is and by the way

01:08:30   With IBM, I think what they sold their PC business and I'm pretty sure they sold their x86 service a long time ago

01:08:35   I think now they're serving their power server business that the power 7 power 8 processors and

01:08:39   Maybe they're also selling the mainframe thing or maybe they're one in the same. Anyway, Microsoft is the Marco of the corporate world

01:08:44   They're just selling everything. No IBM you mean? Yes, I've been like my brain said IBM

01:08:50   I'm out the dot you have no idea how much follow-up

01:08:53   I'm gonna get from my father over all this you can find out what they're actually selling, but I think they're selling everything everything must go

01:08:58   What else is cool

01:09:02   We're finally sponsored this week by automatic

01:09:05   That's with one T the normal way of spelling it not the WordPress way of spelling it automatic comm

01:09:11   ATP this is your smart driving assistant on your smartphone

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01:09:21   Not old dirty bastard onboard diagnostic. Yes, okay the obd port on your car

01:09:28   the automatic little device plugs into that and then it uses Bluetooth to talk to your phone and

01:09:34   It can do all sorts of useful things as you would expect from your phone next into your car

01:09:40   So anyway, it can monitor how you drive,

01:09:44   you can monitor your fuel economy,

01:09:46   you can monitor like, you know,

01:09:47   are you accelerating too hard to be less efficient?

01:09:50   You can also read any check engine light codes,

01:09:53   like anything that would cause your car

01:09:54   to throw an error code.

01:09:55   Cars don't throw exceptions,

01:09:57   they just have little error codes

01:09:59   and you have to read them with special devices.

01:10:01   Well, automatic can read them.

01:10:02   It's great, so you can actually read the code

01:10:04   that your car is telling you and you can decide like,

01:10:06   is this something I need to get checked right away?

01:10:08   Is this something I can do myself?

01:10:10   Things like that.

01:10:12   You can also, it can detect if your car has crash sensors,

01:10:15   which I think all modern cars do

01:10:16   with airbags and everything.

01:10:18   It can detect that your car has been in a crash

01:10:21   and it can automatically signal for help.

01:10:24   That's really, really cool.

01:10:25   That could be potentially very, very important to you.

01:10:29   So your car's in a crash, it senses it,

01:10:31   it communicates with your phone and actually calls for help.

01:10:35   So as you're driving, automatic intelligently monitors

01:10:39   your driving patterns.

01:10:39   And so it looks at, as I said earlier,

01:10:41   it looks at things like how you're accelerating,

01:10:42   how you're braking, the G-force and stuff like that.

01:10:45   It can look at all these things and it can tell you tips

01:10:48   to optimize your fuel economy.

01:10:50   So it gives you all the data you need.

01:10:52   You can track your fuel cost.

01:10:53   You can track your efficiency every week.

01:10:55   If you're like one of those, what are they called?

01:10:57   Hyper-milers, the Prius people?

01:10:59   - Yep, yep.

01:11:00   - So if you're the kind of person

01:11:02   who likes to quantify things,

01:11:04   you want to quantify your life and achieve goals

01:11:09   and look at metrics and optimize metrics,

01:11:11   this is made for you.

01:11:13   'Cause you can track all your costs,

01:11:14   track all your efficiency,

01:11:15   and then it'll give you little tips

01:11:17   of small changes you can make to your habits

01:11:19   if you want to save money in the long run.

01:11:21   And this fuel over time, that can save a lot of money.

01:11:24   You can even set it up if you want

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01:11:29   as kind of like a little error,

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01:11:33   Like I found, in my car I have one of those lane change

01:11:37   warning things where it vibrates the steering wheel

01:11:39   if you start getting close to a lane line without signaling.

01:11:41   And it has actually made me a better driver

01:11:43   because I used to signal like as I was crossing the line,

01:11:47   and I didn't even realize I was doing that.

01:11:49   Now I signal before I start crossing the line.

01:11:51   Just like from this little subtle thing

01:11:54   that just reminded me, hey, that's not quite right.

01:11:56   And so it actually did improve my driving.

01:11:57   So automatic can do the same thing with these audio cues.

01:12:01   If you're driving very inefficiently

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01:12:08   you can diagnose your check engine light,

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01:12:16   Both iPhone and Android devices are supported.

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01:13:15   All right, so our friend Whitby in the chat

01:13:18   suggested this topic, it's a Chromium,

01:13:23   they wrote a proposal sometime (laughs)

01:13:27   called Marking HTTP as Non-Secure.

01:13:30   So they're proposing that browser vendors

01:13:33   change their UI paradigm.

01:13:35   So instead of saying,

01:13:37   instead of like showing a lock or some indicator

01:13:39   when a site is served over SSL to show that it is secure,

01:13:43   to actually mark non-SSL sites as insecure in the browser,

01:13:47   to make, to kind of like yell at people into recognizing

01:13:50   like, hey, what you're doing here is insecure.

01:13:53   They're saying like the absence of an icon

01:13:56   doesn't really communicate much to people,

01:13:58   whereas like an active alert saying,

01:14:00   this is insecure, might be more helpful.

01:14:02   So they're saying they intend to transition Chrome

01:14:06   to this sometime in 2015,

01:14:08   and maybe other browser vendors will follow.

01:14:10   And there's a whole bunch of stuff going on

01:14:13   in browsers these days with SSL

01:14:15   and trying to make it a bigger deal.

01:14:19   Chrome seems to be leading the way on that,

01:14:20   but the other browser vendors tend to follow pretty quickly.

01:14:23   What do you guys think about this?

01:14:26   Do you think, 'cause I have my own opinions on this,

01:14:28   how much do you think this would help and does it matter?

01:14:32   - First of all, for dating this,

01:14:34   if you look at the screenshots,

01:14:35   that is not the current version of Safari,

01:14:37   so I hate web pages without dates in them.

01:14:40   But anyway, the potential for this to be old

01:14:43   because that is not Safari 8 in the screenshot.

01:14:45   - Well, but it says they intend to begin

01:14:47   a transition plan for Chrome in 2015.

01:14:50   So it has to be sometime recent, right?

01:14:51   - Yeah, I know, but who knows?

01:14:53   This could have been written at the beginning of 2014.

01:14:55   Anyway, for this particular idea,

01:14:59   my question is always, say you communicate this to people,

01:15:03   that you changed the wording.

01:15:05   You know, it's a death tax, not a state tax, right?

01:15:09   This is now insecure instead of the other one being secure.

01:15:12   What do people do about that?

01:15:14   What action, is there a readily available action

01:15:17   that people can take to make them not just ignore this

01:15:21   like all the other crazy technical things

01:15:23   that their computer yells at them

01:15:25   that they don't understand.

01:15:26   Like a big giant red button that says switch to secure.

01:15:29   If we can make that big giant red button,

01:15:32   why doesn't the browser just try it all the time anyway?

01:15:34   Why don't we just make it try HTTPS by default all the time

01:15:37   and fall back to it?

01:15:38   Like that's what you need.

01:15:40   Not so much like communicating to the user information

01:15:45   that they don't understand what they can do with,

01:15:47   but rather simply just doing the right thing.

01:15:49   Like making the browser do HTTPS by default all the time.

01:15:52   Now I know that's not quite easy.

01:15:54   I know you can't just try HTTPS first and then HTTP,

01:15:56   and although, you know, there are technical hurdles to,

01:16:00   you know, you break different websites

01:16:02   if you try this all the time.

01:16:03   Like maybe it has to be something that people click

01:16:05   or whatever, but that's my big question about this.

01:16:08   If you communicate this information,

01:16:09   what do I do with this information?

01:16:11   What action do I take?

01:16:13   - Casey, what do you think?

01:16:14   - I understand the idea, but it just seems weird

01:16:17   to kind of flip everything on its head like that.

01:16:21   But I'm also probably reading too much into it

01:16:23   in so far as, does anyone, and does any regular human

01:16:27   really pay attention to whether or not a website

01:16:28   they're looking at is secure?

01:16:30   - I know people look, they used to,

01:16:32   back when web browsers were more stable

01:16:35   and there were fewer of them,

01:16:36   and it was just Netscape and Internet Explorer,

01:16:39   and people usually used one of them.

01:16:41   They knew to look for the little lock icon or whatever,

01:16:44   like in their browser, Chrome, and they'd be like,

01:16:46   is this secure before, like,

01:16:48   I just wanna look for the little lock.

01:16:49   And certain people were kind of trained

01:16:51   to look for the little lock,

01:16:52   but then a little lock started moving all over the places

01:16:54   and browsers got weird and sometimes the lock

01:16:57   had a line through it if there was like a certificate error

01:17:00   and it just, it started to sort of become just more noise

01:17:03   that your computer throws at you.

01:17:05   Sometimes it puts up a dialogue box

01:17:06   and it says allow or disallow.

01:17:07   And you ask, you know, you talk to people about computers

01:17:10   and they will be, they're either the people

01:17:12   who just always say allow or the people

01:17:13   who just always say disallow.

01:17:15   And you may be thinking that the people who always say allow

01:17:18   are, you know, stupid and naive and are doing insecure

01:17:21   things, but if you've ever had to try to help a person who's one of the disallow

01:17:26   people or deny people or whatever they do, I just always say disallow, I just

01:17:29   always say deny, and then they wonder why nothing works on the web because they

01:17:32   refuse to enable JavaScript or something, like it's, neither approach is great and

01:17:36   the problem is that regular users shouldn't have to understand all this

01:17:40   technical mumbo-jumbo just to get the thing they want done done, so that's

01:17:44   why I'm thinking exposing more of this technical mumbo-jumbo to regular people

01:17:49   is not really helping matters.

01:17:51   What I would be more in favor of is,

01:17:54   I mean, they're kind of doing,

01:17:55   wasn't the EFF doing the thing

01:17:56   where they're giving SSL certificates for free

01:17:58   just to encourage more sites to have them?

01:18:00   Make more sites SSL by default.

01:18:02   Make, have the web, people who run the websites

01:18:04   redirect HTTP to HTTPS all the time immediately on first hit

01:18:08   and just, people don't have to know about that, right?

01:18:11   If they don't care, if they don't know

01:18:12   where the lock icon is anymore, it should just,

01:18:15   this is a discussion that should take place

01:18:17   amongst the people who are making websites,

01:18:19   less so amongst the people who are using web browsers.

01:18:21   Maybe also amongst the people who are making web browsers,

01:18:24   but their customers are the individual users,

01:18:26   not the websites.

01:18:27   So I feel like this should be, you know,

01:18:29   more speaking inwards as an industry

01:18:32   and less outwards to the users.

01:18:34   - Yeah, I mean, I think the main problems with this,

01:18:38   number one, I would even question, Jon,

01:18:41   when you said that at the beginning,

01:18:42   when we only had very few browsers,

01:18:43   people knew to look for the log hog hunt.

01:18:45   I bet nobody even did then.

01:18:46   Like I bet the percentage of internet users

01:18:48   who look for the lock icon is about the same

01:18:50   as it's always been, which is probably embarrassingly low.

01:18:53   I think the problem is like,

01:18:56   this is trying to address,

01:19:00   it'd be the same thing as like forming a consortium

01:19:03   to figure out how can we make people

01:19:06   better read text and error dialogues?

01:19:09   Like, you probably can't.

01:19:12   - You're lucky if they read the button text.

01:19:14   - Yeah, like there's very little you can do.

01:19:16   Maybe they just recognize the shape of okay

01:19:18   and hit it before even reading it.

01:19:20   - Yeah, or in their head they're saying,

01:19:23   how do I cancel out of this?

01:19:25   Just get rid of this, I don't know what to do.

01:19:27   It's a very hard problem that is multiply unsolvable.

01:19:31   So same thing here, it's like,

01:19:32   how do you make people pay attention

01:19:34   to the level of connection encryption

01:19:37   that they have in there?

01:19:38   I mean, we can't even make people pay attention

01:19:40   to the host they're connected to.

01:19:42   That's its own problem.

01:19:44   So the other problem with this scheme is that all it does,

01:19:49   you know, it's hard to say you are secure

01:19:52   or you are insecure because what does that mean?

01:19:55   If you are reading a blog or the New York Times

01:19:58   or something and it's insecure, what does that mean?

01:20:02   Does that mean the blog is going to hack you?

01:20:03   Like that's confusing to people at best if they even look

01:20:07   and it's misleading, certainly.

01:20:09   Similarly, if you say you are secure, you are secure,

01:20:13   like somebody in the chat said, a secure connection to totally.bankofamerica.lols.ru is not a

01:20:21   good thing. It's like, you can have an SSL certificate to a totally different domain

01:20:28   that is still a phishing domain, and you can still be insecure. Yes, you can look into

01:20:32   the EV stuff and get like the name of your company, Bank of America Incorporated, to

01:20:36   show a green button on the bar, but it's like, those can probably also be easily faked,

01:20:42   with enough effort, and also no one looks for those either.

01:20:45   Like, all the people who don't look for lock icons, they don't look for EV certificates either.

01:20:48   Or even if you're looking for it, like, it appears so differently, or sometimes not at all,

01:20:53   in different browsers. I met people who used to look at the lock icon, but once it became more

01:20:57   complicated than that, once it became more complicated than a binary thing that was

01:21:01   generally represented the same way everywhere, then people can't be bothered. And speaking of

01:21:05   the secure thing, I don't know if anyone's posted this in the chat room yet, because I'm scrolled

01:21:10   to look at something else, but I think Eric Schmidt had something where he was telling people to use incognito mode in Chrome

01:21:16   to avoid the NSA. Like that's what gets back to what Mark was saying. What does secure mean?

01:21:21   Or what does insecure mean? They don't mean what those words read as to a technically unsavvy user.

01:21:28   Because it's like either I'm safe or I'm not safe. That's what they're looking for.

01:21:30   It's basically all they can handle and even that only conscientious people can handle. Am I safe or am I not safe?

01:21:35   And like the real answer is so much more complicated than a binary you're safe and you're not safe.

01:21:39   That you can't like even if you could successfully communicate

01:21:42   That simple narration it's misleading and if you could sexually successfully communicate the the more nuanced information, which you can't but if you could

01:21:50   People would still be left with okay. Now I understand the exact

01:21:53   Parameters of the situation. I'm in what do I do about it?

01:21:57   Do I not use the web browser anymore?

01:21:58   And then you just go I said the two two strategies are allow everything or deny everything dismiss everything with cancel

01:22:03   them is everything with okay and I think there are more dismiss every allow allow all I think

01:22:08   there are more allowers than deniers because deniers really just can't get anything done

01:22:12   and they're they're very frustrating people but they're like no I just deny everything

01:22:16   I need I need a long explanation of why I'm supposed to not you know and it's like well

01:22:21   you can just keep hitting deny but you're never gonna be able to install any software you're

01:22:24   never gonna be able to watch any videos on the web all your websites will be broken but you're

01:22:27   like I feel safer this way right people learn very quickly that if you hit okay to everything

01:22:31   you get overall fewer boxes.

01:22:33   - Right, that's basically the strategy.

01:22:35   It's like a--

01:22:36   - The SSL question, it doesn't assure you

01:22:39   that the site is secure.

01:22:41   All it ensures you is that you have

01:22:42   an encrypted connection to the site,

01:22:44   and even that's kind of a questionable validity these days.

01:22:47   - And the incognito has nothing to do with anything,

01:22:49   but even SSL, we could say at this point,

01:22:50   does not protect you from, you know,

01:22:53   with heart bleed and everything.

01:22:53   That doesn't protect you really anyway.

01:22:55   - Right, well, and even then, it's like,

01:22:56   there's a whole class of security issues

01:23:00   that SSL doesn't protect you from.

01:23:01   things like password leaks and hacks.

01:23:04   Like if you see the secure icon,

01:23:07   does that mean you can type in the one password

01:23:09   you use for everything including your bank

01:23:11   and use that on this website because it's a secure site

01:23:13   and won't lose your password?

01:23:14   Like no, of course not.

01:23:16   But you know, so again, what does that mean?

01:23:17   So I think this is, you know,

01:23:21   the move to do HTTPS everywhere

01:23:24   that a lot of people are moving towards,

01:23:27   I think in many ways that's a good move

01:23:29   and that is probably the way we're going.

01:23:31   - Yeah, but this conversion to SSL reminds me of,

01:23:34   I mean, it's amazing that it's taken this long.

01:23:36   It's taken this long because the sort of artificial barrier

01:23:39   to this happening earlier was that SSL certificates

01:23:41   cost money, and it's not a lot of money,

01:23:43   but they cost money and they're annoying,

01:23:45   and the people who sell them are generally annoying.

01:23:48   And so EFF trying to reduce that barrier is better,

01:23:51   but it's like, what it reminds me of is the transition

01:23:54   from the old days of Telnet and FTP to basically SSH,

01:23:59   and SSH was free and open source,

01:24:01   and that's why it spread everywhere,

01:24:03   and nobody's telnetting into their machines anymore,

01:24:05   and nobody's using FTP with plain text passwords anymore,

01:24:08   because that would be crazy,

01:24:09   and yet we still continue to use essentially

01:24:12   the web equivalent, totally unencrypted telnet FTP,

01:24:15   like unencrypted protocols are crazy, right?

01:24:17   But we use HTTP all the time,

01:24:19   and yeah, we hope that when we're typing in a password,

01:24:21   I mean, I know I don't even check.

01:24:22   Do I look up to see it's HTTPS?

01:24:24   I just assume, 'cause what kind of crazy website

01:24:25   would put up a password prompt and not have it to be HTTPS?

01:24:28   But you don't, so really--

01:24:31   - Everyone fish John.

01:24:32   - We should be HTTPS everywhere instead of,

01:24:37   just like we're SSH everywhere,

01:24:38   'cause nobody uses Telnet anymore.

01:24:39   Although I'm glad it's still installed

01:24:41   'cause I still use it to debug web servers.

01:24:43   - The big problem with adoption of SSL everywhere,

01:24:47   of HTTPS everywhere rather,

01:24:48   is that the certificates expire.

01:24:51   And I think it used to be you could get a five year one

01:24:53   and I think they killed that last year, right?

01:24:55   Now can you only get like a three or two year one?

01:24:58   something like that, SSH keys never expire.

01:25:01   So you can have the same SSH key for 10 years

01:25:05   and it'll continue to work.

01:25:06   - But a website is more heavyweight than a server,

01:25:09   the server that you remotely connect into, right?

01:25:12   I just feel like the main barrier was that it cost money

01:25:15   and that you had to deal with these weird vendors

01:25:17   and if they could make it easier

01:25:18   and make it simpler to update these things,

01:25:20   and it just has to happen,

01:25:22   because if you're running a website,

01:25:24   that's a big thing that's worth an investment

01:25:26   of like a couple minutes every three years.

01:25:29   - Sure, yeah, the problem is that it is a very highly

01:25:32   technical process that is very error prone,

01:25:35   very intimidating and very complicated

01:25:38   that you have to do every two or three years.

01:25:41   And that's like on a grand scheme of things,

01:25:43   like in the grand scheme of the internet,

01:25:45   no one's gonna do that.

01:25:45   Like yeah, the big sites will do it.

01:25:47   But everything else out there, it's not gonna do it.

01:25:51   - But people, what's left is not a big site.

01:25:53   People don't run their own websites so much anymore

01:25:55   And if they do, they're probably tech nerds anyway.

01:25:56   We just need the big sites to do it.

01:25:58   And like Facebook, you know,

01:26:01   WordPress has to have like idiot-proof support for it

01:26:04   built in where you just click a button

01:26:05   and it connects everything.

01:26:06   You know, like it's possible to get this to happen.

01:26:10   And I think the money,

01:26:11   making it free if this actually works out.

01:26:13   Like if you had like the SSL certificate equivalent

01:26:16   of hover, I don't know if hover sells SSL.

01:26:19   - I think they do.

01:26:20   - Well, there you go.

01:26:21   But like, but they can't do the thing.

01:26:22   They don't, can't do a thing where you set up

01:26:24   your own WordPress ID and just press a button and then it says I'm gonna buy

01:26:27   and install an SSL certificate for you this is how much it cost you want me to

01:26:31   do this and you know it auto renews like every couple years oh and it sends you

01:26:35   an email by the way we're gonna update your SSL certificate in a couple of

01:26:37   weeks you want us to do that yeah go ahead that's not how it works now you

01:26:41   know look at different encryption protocols and include the right ones and

01:26:46   create your key with some crazy command line program that asks you a million

01:26:49   questions you don't know the answers to that uses vocabulary you're not

01:26:51   familiar with even if you are familiar with you forget which thing you're

01:26:53   supposed to write their your name or your company name or whatever.

01:26:56   Oh yeah, well and then like and the instructions are gonna say like these last three things

01:26:59   you must skip them don't enter anything in like these these three fields and it's like

01:27:02   oh come on.

01:27:03   But anyway I still think all that stuff the people who have to deal with that are better

01:27:08   equipped to deal with it than users are to deal with more interface elements telling

01:27:13   them something that they don't understand about the the pages they're using.

01:27:18   I mean, my mother still emails me things and says,

01:27:20   I got an email and it wants me to go to this site.

01:27:26   Is this site safe?

01:27:27   And just in my default answer, I'm now, no, I'm the denial.

01:27:31   I've said, no, denied, denied.

01:27:33   Just do not do anything.

01:27:34   That email didn't come from who you think it came from.

01:27:36   - Yeah.

01:27:37   - And like even, I remember early on in the days

01:27:39   of the internet, I demonstrated how you can send email

01:27:41   from anybody, but you know, tell Netink to port 25,

01:27:45   back when that was all, back when that was all encrypted

01:27:47   like, you know, president@unitedstates.com,

01:27:49   look, you got an email from president

01:27:51   of the United States, see how I did that?

01:27:52   And that didn't take.

01:27:53   And so still to this day, she's like,

01:27:55   but the email came from you.

01:27:57   I'm like, it did not come from me.

01:27:58   I know it looks like it came from me, but it didn't.

01:28:01   Did it?

01:28:02   So even that concept, like it's just,

01:28:06   the mental model of how people think the internet works

01:28:08   is so different from how it actually works

01:28:10   that it's very difficult to, you know,

01:28:12   you can't get the models in sync

01:28:14   because the way the internet really works

01:28:15   is too complicated for people to know or care about.

01:28:18   And so you really just have to not give them choices

01:28:22   and sort of be safe by default

01:28:24   and make it so that you don't have to do anything

01:28:27   through no action of your own.

01:28:29   You are slightly more protected now than you were before.

01:28:32   - All right.

01:28:34   - Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:28:36   Automatic, lynda.com and Dash.

01:28:39   And we will see you next week.

01:28:41   (upbeat music)

01:28:43   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:28:48   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:28:51   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:28:54   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:28:59   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:29:01   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:29:04   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:29:09   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:29:14   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:29:18   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:29:23   Anti-Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:29:28   U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:29:30   It's accidental

01:29:33   They didn't mean to

01:29:36   Accidental

01:29:38   Tech podcast so long

01:29:43   Want to address

01:29:44   Esketologist concern that that the clock in the menu bar wasn't integrated into the OS quickly

01:29:50   It didn't come until some system 7.5 and I'm going to say yeah, that was quick

01:29:55   It was only four years between the time was introduced in the time. We got scooped up

01:29:58   That's in a 30 year history of the Mac. That's relatively quick compared to oh

01:30:01   I don't know like theming which almost made it in but then no not at last minute and we were still waiting for it to come

01:30:07   But anyway, yeah, the history of the Mac from 1994 until today

01:30:11   has had a clock in the menu bar.

01:30:13   It's a pretty long time.

01:30:14   And for a couple of years before that,

01:30:16   it was a third-party utility.

01:30:17   Was Windows Shade third-party?

01:30:18   You guys don't know.

01:30:19   Maybe someone in the chat room knows.

01:30:21   I remember Windows Shade, and I remember getting a crappy

01:30:24   knockoff for my PC because I thought it was awesome.

01:30:26   It is awesome.

01:30:27   It was awesome, and it is.

01:30:29   Windows Shade had to go back to being third-party after being

01:30:32   integrated to the OS because they took it out in OS X.

01:30:35   And they had-- so in practice, you guys

01:30:37   Have like all these like sticks around your screen like these windows

01:30:39   Awesome window shade was awesome. Yes Marco. That is basically how it works. Why would you want that?

01:30:45   This is why window shade was awesome

01:30:47   I'm a screen full of sticks if you're a person like me who arranges your windows on the screen

01:30:52   Like doesn't maximize everything doesn't tile everything but actually arranges them like you'd arrange items on a desk in front of you

01:30:58   So, you know where everything is. No, I I do that. I

01:31:00   Always got very mad whenever anybody would move my my like aim window or something. All right

01:31:05   Well, they're not just anyone know but everything all your terminal windows all your editor windows stuff like that. All right being able to

01:31:11   Essentially minimize them without having them move

01:31:15   So when you want them back you go to where they were but they don't take they don't take up visual space on your screen

01:31:20   Anymore, you just have the little little stick thing like

01:31:23   Displaced minimization like into the dock or you know hidden also has its place

01:31:28   But being able to sort of maintain the spatial state of your windows while having them

01:31:34   Minimize themselves having them hide having them curl up and get out of your way until you want them

01:31:38   Let's you quickly find them again without going to a menu without hovering over a bunch of little identical looking icons to talk because you know

01:31:44   Exactly where it is because you can visualize where it was and now you just have the top part of it

01:31:47   So I miss window shade it wasn't the ultimate thing for randomization all the other all the other tools

01:31:53   We currently have now are all so good, but they took away that one

01:31:56   It's kind of a shame and it's probably just as well because nobody arranges their windows anymore

01:32:00   They just do everything full screen or just have no idea where their windows are I?

01:32:03   I can't I can't imagine having like all these sticks all over the place and be like because it seems like well

01:32:08   You don't minimize all of them. It's not you have a million sticks. You just minimize the ones you're not using right now

01:32:12   Why is that so much better than hiding because hiding gets it all the way gone like how do you how do you get it?

01:32:17   Back then you hit the icon on the dock or you use the alt tab thing

01:32:20   What I kind of dog there's seven icons in the dock that are all bad from the same application

01:32:23   I mean, you don't know which one is the one you want

01:32:25   You got a home you got to do the mystery meet hover and find out which one it is

01:32:27   Oh, I never minimize that I only hide but what if you hide you had you had you get it back then?

01:32:33   You have to go back to the application go to go to some menu or yeah go to the doc

01:32:37   I kind of pull it up by its name

01:32:38   And I hope you remember the name and I hope your application is good about giving titles to the windows that make sense in it

01:32:43   You know especially if it's a window that has tabs and it doesn't convey the tab title up

01:32:47   Spatial memory is a lot better for me anyway. I think for most people yeah, I spatial memory of where things are on the dock

01:32:52   Seriously like like the things are always in the same place in the dock so I know the application icon or the little yeah

01:32:59   But you have to the application icon doesn't magically make the window appear

01:33:02   You have to look at the list of windows that are minimized under it. How many windows do you keep in one app?

01:33:07   a lot of window maybe this is our disconnect here like I I generally

01:33:11   Don't like in each app

01:33:14   I usually keep between one and two windows like and I use tabs very heavily and in terminal and the browsers

01:33:19   But yeah, I don't keep a whole lot of windows open. I have 11

01:33:24   Windows and colloquy right now to give it an example. Oh my god in B in B B ad in B B edit

01:33:30   I frequently have I don't know. I think I've pushed up into a hundred before maybe 20 or 30 most of the time

01:33:37   I don't even know colic we had multiple either in terminal. I terminal usually have one two three four five six

01:33:44   Seven eight eight or nine maybe that was wrong with each of those windows tabs in it. Do you not believe it?

01:33:50   Yeah, I was gonna say do you not believe in tabs? Oh my no the with the terminal windows have tabs

01:33:54   though I love terminal tabs obviously my browser windows have tabs how many

01:33:57   browser I don't have a lot of browser windows open now right now I have I love

01:34:01   I love that every week we're finding out like some crazy computer habit from John

01:34:06   that we that nobody would have expected I have 19 Safari windows open right now

01:34:09   Oh my windows 19 Safari windows not even tens of tabs in those windows if only

01:34:17   there is a way for you to like save things to a reading list or something to

01:34:20   Later that's not what this is for. Yeah, I have this is why I need a bigger screen to like

01:34:25   This is like giving a hoarder a bigger house like you don't that's not gonna fix your problem

01:34:31   Oh, no, I'm not I'm not hoarding things not collecting windows. They each have a thing that I'm doing in them

01:34:35   It's kind of sounds like you

01:34:37   John you cannot have 19 windows with multiple tabs for window that you're and I'm using scare quotes doing things

01:34:43   I definitely can I sometimes that sort of like sedimentary layers like

01:34:48   For example the work my work windows as I was doing work earlier today are you know separate from my other windows?

01:34:54   I don't use spaces either. Oh, how could you manage all that without space my 19 call crew windows by the way are

01:35:00   Precisely arranged in the same place. They've been for years the same windows because each one window per channel one window per channel

01:35:07   And they are precisely arranged and you hang out in 19 channels. Oh my how do you get anything done during the day?

01:35:14   I'm not in them. I'm just idling. You know how IRC works. You don't have to be there paying attention

01:35:18   Yeah, they're all in like the little tabs in the side. They're not no no the windows are open

01:35:22   I see how would having little us little minimized window sticks everywhere. How would that help you problem?

01:35:28   For for colloquy when I'm doing a podcast

01:35:31   I don't want to look at any of the windows except for the one I'm doing so I have to minimize all them to the

01:35:36   Docs ever the one that I'm doing if I could option

01:35:38   Window shade them and they would all shade up and then shade down the one I want I wouldn't have to do that

01:35:43   Oh my god, I know I can often click to make them all and minimize or whatever

01:35:47   I probably wouldn't use it for college. They probably use it for editing windows more

01:35:50   This user for finder windows - I'm stuck on I cannot maybe I cannot cognitively handle

01:35:57   More than a couple of Safari windows your window users. You're used to maximizing everything

01:36:03   You know handle one window at a time. I know no

01:36:05   No, I can only I can only handle like a sum total of maybe ten tabs across like two windows

01:36:11   You should see my work computer.

01:36:12   It has so many windows on it.

01:36:13   Like there is unbelievable amount of windows.

01:36:17   My home one, sometimes I have to go through

01:36:18   and clean up things.

01:36:19   Like I know what's in a lot of these windows.

01:36:20   And sometimes that, you know,

01:36:22   sometimes these things are from Instapaper,

01:36:24   but a lot of times there are things that I can't view.

01:36:26   I look at Instapaper on my iPad and some video won't play

01:36:29   'cause it's like flash or 'cause the thing is choking on it.

01:36:31   Today on my poor iPad 3, I was reading a blog post

01:36:34   and it had like text and then like a Google ad next to it.

01:36:37   And I double tap the text

01:36:38   to just have the text fill the screen.

01:36:40   And it was some crazy JavaScript on this page.

01:36:42   It was like, no, I will always have to show you the ad.

01:36:44   So the largest you can make this page

01:36:46   is where it shows my little pretty blue margin

01:36:50   and then my white margin and then the text

01:36:52   and then another white margin and then the ad,

01:36:54   then a blue margin.

01:36:55   And if you pinch to zoom,

01:36:56   all it did was make the text smaller

01:36:57   so it could fit the ad in.

01:36:58   And scrolling the page was super slow.

01:37:00   So it's like, I just want to read that in.

01:37:02   I need a 2.8 gigahertz processor

01:37:04   to read this frigging blog post apparently,

01:37:06   because I'm not going to scroll this on my iPad

01:37:08   and watch it like stutter

01:37:09   and accidentally make it seem like I clicked the ad

01:37:11   when I'm trying to scroll, very frustrating.

01:37:13   Anyway, there are reasons that I might have thing

01:37:15   in a browser window instead of looking

01:37:17   through an Instapaper on my iPad.

01:37:19   - Wow, I just, I don't even know what to say right now.

01:37:23   Like 19 Safari windows is, did I hear that right?

01:37:26   19? - Yeah.

01:37:28   - How do you tell which one, oh, no, that is the one.

01:37:31   Number 17 is the one I want.

01:37:34   - I have them arranged.

01:37:35   - It just seems like there would be a lot

01:37:37   of churning going on here, 'cause you can't, I mean--

01:37:39   - Yes.

01:37:40   - You can't fit 19 windows on screen.

01:37:41   And you said you don't use virtual desktops.

01:37:43   - It's called, they overlap.

01:37:45   It's called tiling.

01:37:46   - You know?

01:37:47   - And you have only one physical monitor

01:37:49   connected to your machine, is that right?

01:37:50   - Yeah, I'm one monitor person.

01:37:51   - And it's a, what is it?

01:37:52   A 24 inch class or a 30 inch or what?

01:37:54   - Yeah, a 1920 by 12 inch.

01:37:56   - Right, so 24 inch, okay, so wow.

01:37:59   - This is making me hurt.

01:38:00   I wanna cry just thinking of you trying to manage all this.

01:38:03   - It's not managing it, like this is just how I work.

01:38:05   This is like seeing someone's messy decks and saying,

01:38:07   "How can you do anything done

01:38:08   with all those markers and pencils everywhere

01:38:10   and there's just paper and erasers,

01:38:11   I don't understand how you get anything done.

01:38:13   It's like, no, I'm concentrating on the thing

01:38:14   I'm concentrating on and I know where the things are.

01:38:17   All these paints and cups and buckets

01:38:19   and how do you get anything done?

01:38:20   You have a stick and an easel

01:38:22   and I don't understand how you get anything done.

01:38:23   How do you know where everything is?

01:38:25   - Right, I have 367 sticks on my desktop

01:38:27   and I can tell exactly which one is the window I need.

01:38:31   - Well, it's like a mechanic

01:38:32   who's got an entire tool chest next to him

01:38:34   and everything is in a drawer

01:38:35   and in every drawer there's a little cubby

01:38:37   and everything is there

01:38:38   It's all within arm's reach when he's working on a car.

01:38:40   I think that's how the mechanic sees it in his head, and in real life it's a giant pile

01:38:44   of unsorted tools.

01:38:45   Oh, I know where it is.

01:38:46   I can find it.

01:38:47   I can quit whenever I want.

01:38:48   Anyway, the beauty of the computer is things never get dirty, and the beauty of the computer

01:38:54   for window arranging should be, I still want this utility and I don't think anyone's ever

01:38:59   going to make it because it's something that Apple should make, is I want something that

01:39:02   lets me arrange windows with constraints.

01:39:05   First of all, I'm pretty sure that many of those exist.

01:39:07   Second of all, this is your app, Jon.

01:39:09   This is your great idea.

01:39:11   This is your--

01:39:12   But it's the type of app I would never make,

01:39:13   because I would know this is a doom from the start,

01:39:15   because Apple would never--

01:39:16   they would have to use private APIs,

01:39:18   and it can never go in the Mac App Store,

01:39:20   and there'd be one user of it, me.

01:39:21   Like, the apps you're talking about,

01:39:23   everyone always-- every time I mention this,

01:39:24   people send me the million apps.

01:39:25   Like, they're mentioning a chat already.

01:39:26   Here comes Moom.

01:39:27   What's that other one called?

01:39:29   Divvy is going to come up next.

01:39:30   Like, I know all these apps, right?

01:39:31   Like, these apps are made by people who like the Ion Window

01:39:34   Manager.

01:39:35   They're like for tiling, or like even Windows does it where,

01:39:37   Like I can make it half my screen or a third of my screen.

01:39:39   It's like, no, I'm not subdividing my screen.

01:39:41   - You want auto layout for windows.

01:39:43   You want to be like, all right,

01:39:44   this window has the same center X coordinate

01:39:48   as this window from this app,

01:39:50   but is always 30 pixels to the right of the window edge.

01:39:53   - Not that, but that's too complicated.

01:39:54   Like there is an app that does that.

01:39:56   There's an app where you can like type in

01:39:58   those types of things and have like bind them to keyboard

01:40:00   shortcuts and stuff like that.

01:40:02   I don't think it does auto layout stuff,

01:40:03   but it does basically spring through the stress type thing.

01:40:05   Like you can vary precisely,

01:40:06   but I would never want to do that.

01:40:07   I would need it to be a GUI.

01:40:08   What I want is something that apps used to do,

01:40:10   a couple of neat little apps used to do,

01:40:12   like individual apps would do it.

01:40:14   It wasn't a system wide thing.

01:40:16   And you know, some apps still do it kind of like

01:40:17   where you would drag a palette

01:40:19   and it would kind of snap the palette

01:40:20   into the corner of your screen,

01:40:22   but it wouldn't be touching in the corner.

01:40:23   It would leave a little margin.

01:40:24   And if you brought one of the other palettes

01:40:26   of the application up below it,

01:40:27   this is before everyone's palettes were dockable,

01:40:29   like, you know, in the Adobe apps today,

01:40:31   you bring another pallet below it,

01:40:32   it wouldn't stick to the bottom of the other pallet,

01:40:34   but it would leave a little margin

01:40:35   that margin was the same.

01:40:36   What I basically want is, for example, my colloquy windows.

01:40:39   I have arranged in a particular way,

01:40:41   and I have them in groups,

01:40:42   and the groups I want all to be the same width,

01:40:44   and I want them to be vertically aligned with each other.

01:40:47   And if they're not overlapping,

01:40:49   I want them to be a consistent margin between them,

01:40:51   above and to the ones to the right,

01:40:52   but if they are overlapping,

01:40:53   I just want them to stay within their right and left edges.

01:40:56   Like, basically sort of magnetic,

01:40:58   sticky, smart guide kind of things,

01:41:00   kind of like what Keynote does,

01:41:02   kind of like what OmniGraffle does

01:41:04   with its layout constraints,

01:41:05   a combination of those two things.

01:41:06   It would take some experimentation to get it right.

01:41:08   And you need modifier keys when you don't want it to snap

01:41:10   and stuff like that.

01:41:11   Just a few simple snapping rules.

01:41:13   - Oh, totally.

01:41:14   Just a few small rules.

01:41:15   - Yeah, for making things the same width

01:41:17   and lined up with each other and stuff like that.

01:41:19   Now I just do it manually and it's fine.

01:41:21   It's not that big of a deal.

01:41:22   But you know, or tiling, just regular tiling windows.

01:41:25   Like there are certain tiling offsets

01:41:26   that you don't want it to happen.

01:41:27   Don't let me tile a window and leave like two pixels visible

01:41:30   on the left and right edges

01:41:31   'cause that's not good enough.

01:41:32   Like I want sort of magnetic kind of snap to gritty,

01:41:37   but not really a grid.

01:41:39   Like I don't care about the screen grid.

01:41:42   I only care about what your position is relative

01:41:43   to other related windows in the same app

01:41:46   or something like that.

01:41:47   It's complicated.

01:41:48   That's why no one makes this app.

01:41:49   I don't think anyone would actually want it,

01:41:50   but for people who are meticulous window arrangers,

01:41:55   all five of us really like it.

01:41:57   - You know, John, maybe if you didn't have

01:41:58   19 Safari windows, you wouldn't need to be quite

01:42:01   meticulous with your arrangement. No, no, but it wouldn't help. That's just one application.

01:42:05   Terminal, I get bad in terminal. Terminal tabs have like, they're a problem because now every

01:42:11   window has like a million tabs in it. You know, you could just not have as many windows and tabs.

01:42:16   No, I use them for work. Like they, they have a purpose. You could use a, well, I'm gonna choose

01:42:23   not to throw stones on the pearl issue, but yeah. That's not what I'm doing with the terminal

01:42:28   all the pearls open in bbedit.

01:42:30   - And how many windows are there?

01:42:32   - At home now I just have one window open in bbedit,

01:42:35   but at work I have many more than one.

01:42:37   Every once in a while I flush everything out,

01:42:39   close all the windows in an application.

01:42:41   Start over again, but I do it by checking what I have there

01:42:44   and making sure there's nothing I still wanna save.

01:42:47   - Does that happen like annually?

01:42:48   - Oh, like bbedit, like when I'm done with the project,

01:42:51   usually I will review all of my windows

01:42:52   and make sure I'm not keeping anything open

01:42:53   that I don't want to and close everything in.

01:42:57   BB edits are cool.

01:42:59   Quit is now bound to save all my window positions in state

01:43:03   and then quit.

01:43:05   So I never close anything.

01:43:06   I just quit BB edit, and I relaunch it.

01:43:07   Everything is back where I found it.

01:43:09   That's the way I like the apps to be.

01:43:11   Just 19 Safari windows.

01:43:13   Oh my god.

01:43:14   How many Chrome windows do I have open?

01:43:17   Oh.

01:43:17   Oh.

01:43:18   [LAUGHTER]

01:43:20   Oh my god.

01:43:20   I didn't even think about that.

01:43:21   Of course, there's multiple browsers.

01:43:22   Of course.

01:43:23   12 Chrome windows.

01:43:24   Oh my god.

01:43:25   - In addition to the 19th century.

01:43:26   - Yeah, I run Safari and Chrome all the time.

01:43:29   - Oh my God.

01:43:30   - Why?

01:43:31   Why on God's green earth do you need

01:43:34   more than 30 web browser windows open?

01:43:37   Why is that necessary?

01:43:39   How many fricking tabs are in all 30 of these web browsers?

01:43:42   - I can close them now.

01:43:43   I can close the thing and make a web browser secure.

01:43:45   - Oh, woo!

01:43:45   I can close like four of them, woo!

01:43:47   - I can close the pages with the dates of,

01:43:49   the super clock dates in it.

01:43:50   - What's the average number of tabs per window, you think?

01:43:54   It like, so you can still see the titles,

01:43:56   like usually, you know.

01:43:57   - So like eight?

01:43:58   - No, that's too many.

01:43:59   One, two, three, four, like five or six.

01:44:01   Like for example, when I was looking up,

01:44:02   I wanted to look up the dates for Super Clock.

01:44:04   I had one window dedicated to looking up the date

01:44:06   that Super Clock was released.

01:44:09   One window looking up the date

01:44:11   that System 7.5 was released.

01:44:14   And within those windows, I have the Google thing

01:44:16   and then I have tabs for the Google search results

01:44:19   that I thought would be likely.

01:44:20   And then one of the tabs eventually led to the answer.

01:44:22   window is done off to the side next window why is it off to the side and why is it not closed so

01:44:28   i could refer to it when i just discussed this and did the math in my head about what the dates were

01:44:32   right and why did not why did i not close the tabs behind it but i knew when i would come in at the

01:44:36   end of the show i could close this entire window it's like little mini research windows that entire

01:44:40   window goes that entire window goes oh my god i had uh the email that i wanted to talk about in

01:44:45   the after show from grant opening a window here i have a tp notes another window

01:44:51   know.

01:44:52   John, now you have to be honest with us, please.

01:44:55   We're doing this because we're your friends.

01:44:58   Do you have any other browsers?

01:45:01   Open right now?

01:45:02   Just do you keep any other browsers?

01:45:06   We're trying to help you.

01:45:07   Do you keep any other browsers in my application folder or run them?

01:45:11   I don't run any other browsers, but I do have the latest version of, what do you call it?

01:45:17   Firefox.

01:45:18   Firefox.

01:45:19   Maybe I have a version of Hopper in there somewhere.

01:45:22   - Wenzel, how often do you use Firefox, John?

01:45:24   - Never.

01:45:25   (laughing)

01:45:26   - Okay, you're still saying it.

01:45:27   - Every once in a while I launch it just to see,

01:45:30   I got in a situation before where when I launched it,

01:45:32   the in-application updater didn't even know about

01:45:35   the newest version of Firefox.

01:45:36   The updater wasn't new enough to know

01:45:38   that actually they're on Firefox version 30 or something

01:45:41   and it wanted to download,

01:45:41   it wanted to go to version 12 or something,

01:45:44   and it thought that was the latest.

01:45:45   So sometimes I don't run it so long

01:45:47   that it just goes completely.

01:45:48   Occasionally I fire it up just to see what it's like. I used to have made our funds back in the day

01:45:53   But Chrome totally replaced it for me. So you only use Firefox socially

01:45:56   You still like when I mean maintain like to get Firefox to be tall tolerable back in the day

01:46:02   I had a series of themes that I had to apply and the themes would break with new versions

01:46:06   So every time the new version came out

01:46:07   I would update Firefox and try to find the new version of the cool theme that I liked and then just Firefox went crazy

01:46:12   I said forget it. I

01:46:16   I'm still bad. So you have 30 web browsers open with roundabouts of six tabs per per window

01:46:23   Oh god, what do you need 180 tabs for?

01:46:27   The stuff there's stuff in there. Look at this one. I have of course there's stuff in there

01:46:31   There's 180 things of stuff stuff's gonna be worth something someday. I have to keep it the UX the UX of mobile settings

01:46:37   I'm gonna read that one eventually

01:46:39   Because things tend to get buried in is the paper because they fall off the end but if this one I really wanted to lead

01:46:45   I read I can leave it open in a web browser

01:46:47   How are you gonna find it you have 180 to go?

01:46:50   There's some cleaning now this Swift blog post I read already so I can close that one. I got read it at work

01:46:55   This is hoarders. This is just this is hoarders. Yeah

01:46:59   Did you hear the latest rhetoric on where they're going through this the the levels of hoarding I haven't finished it yet

01:47:06   I'm like halfway. Well. This is a relevant topic to them

01:47:09   But anyway, this is definitely not because as you will find out when you listen to the episode hoarders don't know where their stuff is

01:47:14   So you are you are just an indexed hoarder? No, it's not it's not hoarding at all. It's a key

01:47:20   characteristic of the hoarders. They just don't know where their stuff is. And I'm not saving this stuff to think it's gonna be worth something someday.

01:47:25   I bet hoarders, first of all, you are saving it because you think you're gonna actually get to it.

01:47:29   I will I do get to it. How do you think things close? Things close because I've got them.

01:47:33   I don't necessarily get to them on this computer, but I might get them someplace else.

01:47:36   Oh, see I can close this one because this is from last night's incomparable. Boom. Another window with four tabs gone.

01:47:41   All right, so why was it open all day? Well, it wasn't open all day because I just got on my computer

01:47:46   I've been I've been busy

01:47:47   I haven't had time to like sit at my computer and do anything except for open one more new since when?

01:47:52   96 someday I'll clean it all out when I retire

01:47:54   No

01:47:55   I hope I opened that window with all those tabs in it for movie information for an incomparable that I did like last night and

01:48:01   I didn't close all the windows before I left the computer because it's late. Oh my god

01:48:05   My way of computing is extremely efficient

01:48:09   People people for me people don't understand that like how can you have all these windows open?

01:48:14   How can you find anything and I see somebody else when I tell them to open up a new file they?

01:48:18   They open a terminal window. They CD into the directory

01:48:22   They said VI the file name they edit the file then my ass open a new file

01:48:26   They close that file they CD to another directory

01:48:29   They type VI that file name and they edit the file that is inefficient

01:48:32   And then all the while they're doing this in one window zoom to their entire gigantic 23 inch screen

01:48:36   Instead instead I have different terminal windows open in different locations. I don't need to walk over to a different directory to do stuff

01:48:42   I shortcuts it for commands to do things

01:48:45   It is much more efficient than the people who think I should I need everything clean just one window that covers my entire screen

01:48:50   I'll do everything there. You're basically it's multitasking versus single tasking. Yeah, there's a lot of room between those two extremes

01:48:57   Yeah, oh my I may be towards one end, but it's not it's not like that's one

01:49:02   I think you are the end.

01:49:03   Yeah, you're looking back on the rest of society

01:49:05   and saying, geez, I remember what that's like.

01:49:08   I think you'll find a lot of old school Mac users

01:49:11   work like this with multiple windows.

01:49:13   And people who didn't grow up managing windows,

01:49:16   and windows are their enemy.

01:49:17   They just want to get them off the screen.

01:49:18   They can't handle them.

01:49:20   It doesn't occur to them to try to arrange or shape them

01:49:22   as they would physical objects.

01:49:23   And so they just appear randomly

01:49:25   and they're at the mercy of their windows.

01:49:27   And so their only solution is to have very few windows

01:49:30   'cause it's the only way they can feel like

01:49:31   have any mastery of the computer. I don't have that problem.

01:49:34   Jon, let me assure you that whether or not you are aware of it, Windows are your enemy

01:49:38   as well. They are not. They're my friend.

01:49:40   We need to have like a Windows zero intervention. Here's the tip for the two of you who both,

01:49:47   I assume, use Terminal at various times. Yeah.

01:49:50   Have a Terminal window arrangement that you can save in Terminal where you dedicate sizes,

01:49:56   shapes and regions for windows dedicated to specific purposes. For example, here

01:50:01   are my remote windows for this type of machine. This is my log tailing window.

01:50:07   This is my window for root on a local machine. This is my window for starting

01:50:12   and stopping the web server. And then those windows you can have tabs for

01:50:15   sub-purposes, whatever, but dedicate a few major regions to the things that you do.

01:50:18   The things I listed are things I commonly do, but whatever the things are you

01:50:21   commonly do, have windows size shapes and regions for them. You will never find

01:50:26   yourself command tilting through windows again. You will never find yourself

01:50:30   hunting for a window because everything will be exactly where you need. And

01:50:33   terminal windows are the type of thing where you can actually have them not

01:50:35   overlapping that much because you don't need that many terminal windows,

01:50:38   especially with tabs, to cover all of your bases and all of your needs. And

01:50:42   then you never need to wonder where to look, you never need to rearrange things

01:50:45   so you can see a log being tailed or something because everything is always

01:50:49   exactly where you want it. Try that just in one application.

01:50:51   - Well, I have that. I mean, I know where things are.

01:50:54   I just get by with fewer windows.

01:50:56   - So how many, what are your categories of windows of like,

01:50:59   you know, for the type of task?

01:51:03   Describe them.

01:51:04   - What, for terminal?

01:51:05   - Yeah.

01:51:06   - Okay. I can't believe this is the show.

01:51:09   All right, so I have right now four terminal windows,

01:51:13   most of which are single tab except the main,

01:51:16   I have like one main one on the bottom

01:51:18   that's where I keep like six or seven tabs open.

01:51:20   And they're always in a similar order.

01:51:23   Like the far left tab is always like,

01:51:26   just like somewhere in my home directory,

01:51:28   whatever I'm currently working on,

01:51:30   like that's the current project terminal window.

01:51:32   And then as you go to the right,

01:51:34   one of them is like the most recent ATP

01:51:36   if I'm working on that,

01:51:37   'cause I do encoding on the command line

01:51:38   and transcoding on the command line.

01:51:40   - Do you have tab titles?

01:51:41   - No, no, it just shows the command.

01:51:44   'Cause I can tell like,

01:51:45   and this one says like root at db1.

01:51:47   I know what that means.

01:51:49   So I have a couple of web servers.

01:51:53   Again, depending on what I'm doing,

01:51:54   if I'm doing local web development,

01:51:55   I'll have a MySQL window open,

01:51:57   I'll have a PHP window open,

01:51:59   but it's always in the same spot.

01:52:01   And I keep the same tabs in the same spots,

01:52:04   I just get by with a lot fewer of them.

01:52:06   - No, I do the same thing within tabs.

01:52:09   I have different builds that I'm working in,

01:52:11   arranged in tabs by date order,

01:52:13   and I always have the release build in the far left tab

01:52:15   for the window that I'm doing on the dev machine,

01:52:17   which is the window where I'm typing commands into.

01:52:20   Then I have a separate window for a separate project

01:52:22   in a different place with a similar arrangement.

01:52:24   And then my log talent windows is in a totally different

01:52:26   spot and it's much wider because of log, along log lines.

01:52:29   - Yeah, I got one of those up top, yeah.

01:52:30   I mean, I feel like, so a while ago,

01:52:33   I think this was in Bruce Takamazini's talk

01:52:36   on interface book from, I don't know,

01:52:39   when was that from, like the late 80s or early 90s,

01:52:41   whenever that was from.

01:52:42   And he mentioned there was a study that like they were doing

01:52:45   when they were designing the original Mac UI

01:52:47   and stuff like that,

01:52:48   that comparing keyboard shortcuts

01:52:51   to doing things with the mouse.

01:52:52   And at the time, and this probably is not true anymore,

01:52:56   but at the time, they said that,

01:52:58   you know, they were doing these UI studies

01:53:00   and people would always think the keyboard shortcuts

01:53:04   were faster than doing things with the mouse.

01:53:06   But then when they actually observed people,

01:53:09   they actually measured how fast people were doing tasks,

01:53:12   oftentimes, I think in their study,

01:53:14   I think it was the majority of the time.

01:53:15   Again, I don't think this would hold true today,

01:53:17   but even though people thought that the keyboard

01:53:20   was always gonna be faster,

01:53:21   in practice, the way people actually worked

01:53:24   using the mouse was faster, and they didn't think so.

01:53:26   But when you actually measured it by wall clock time,

01:53:29   it was faster.

01:53:30   - That's the other thing that drives people crazy,

01:53:33   especially nerds who are like,

01:53:35   the big power nerd thing is,

01:53:36   I do everything from the keyboard.

01:53:38   My hands never leave the keyboard.

01:53:39   I'm a touch typist.

01:53:40   My hands never leave the home keys.

01:53:41   Everything is a keyboard shortcut.

01:53:43   I never need to touch the mouse if you watch me use the computer

01:53:45   I am constantly bouncing between the mouse and the keyboard sometimes using them both at once if it's a modifier thing and people think

01:53:51   That must be incredibly inefficient, but it's not because there are certain things

01:53:55   I mean, especially if you're doing especially if you're doing things spatially arranging anything the whole point of spatially

01:54:01   Arranging things is you can grab at it in a moment's notice. You know exactly where it is, right?

01:54:05   And part of the little game the gamification of spatially arranging things is look you're not gonna have room for everything things are gonna overlap

01:54:12   What you need to have is a region that can be rely some corner of a thing that can be reliably visible

01:54:17   You're like, oh well you don't arranging things like a little puzzle so you can find the corner

01:54:20   But it becomes second nature where you quickly grab the mouse

01:54:23   Snag the corner of the window you're interested in because it's always in the same place

01:54:27   You know exactly what's in it if you need to change tabs within that window some people be like

01:54:31   Oh, I can just cycle through them with a keyboard shortcut

01:54:33   It's faster

01:54:33   Your hand is already on the mouse click the tab that you know that you want to do because you want to go to the release

01:54:37   build this the far left tab

01:54:39   You could never have gotten to that prompt faster with a series of keyboard shortcuts

01:54:43   You just couldn't because you'd have to like you'd have like it's like you know it's like iterative versus

01:54:47   versus you know

01:54:50   Declarative

01:54:53   the opposite of imperative versus declarative

01:54:55   They're probably not the opposite anyway like you're running a program in your head some people do that some people are good at running programs in

01:55:02   Their head like in VI down five lines over three words insert character like that's not the way I think though

01:55:06   I think it's over there and I just grab it with the mouse and that is second nature to me and I don't have to

01:55:10   Think about it. Well, okay. So two devil's advocate points number one

01:55:14   the reason I brought up that whole talking interface study is like

01:55:18   like

01:55:20   You might be thinking what you're doing is faster, but it might not be faster

01:55:24   I know it's faster because when people see when people see me use my computer, they can't follow it. Like what are you doing?

01:55:29   I didn't wait. I didn't see that we go. They cannot follow what I'm doing

01:55:32   Well, I think a person who is who is like an experienced power user for computers like that

01:55:38   I think that would apply to almost all those people like people who are really fast with working on a computer regardless of how they're arranging

01:55:43   things

01:55:43   so anyway

01:55:44   my the second that was having a point is

01:55:46   The way the way you arranged is how you're describing this the the reasons you're citing for doing this make it sound like what you're trying

01:55:53   to avoid is

01:55:54   Like having to like pull something back out of like where it where it lives like in in offline storage

01:56:00   So like having to open up a new window to go to something having to like, you know

01:56:04   pull out a file out of a finder window or open up a new terminal window and CD of the right directory or SSH

01:56:09   You know the right thing or whatever but in reality

01:56:11   like if that's what you're accustomed to like if somebody with the same level of skill and familiarity with with computers and using them and

01:56:19   And whatever system they've built up over time if they do it the other way

01:56:24   Which is I think is closer to what Casey and I do which is like a smaller number of windows with a higher

01:56:29   Tolerance of having to go fetch something from disk or whatever

01:56:32   I can't stand to watch over the shoulder those people because they're like, oh I have to go do this thing

01:56:36   Let me open a new window. Let me go into the right directory

01:56:39   You're already there and then you end up and then let me get let me close the window when I'm done

01:56:44   To clean everything up and then let me do the same thing five minutes later

01:56:48   but if that was the system that you had chosen to implement if that was if that was the way that you worked I

01:56:53   Would posit that you would be

01:56:56   Very similarly fast if not

01:56:58   Indistinguishably fast. It's not it's not about fast

01:57:01   It's like it's like I said before it's efficiency and efficiency doesn't just involve speed

01:57:05   But also involves cognitive load and this is the type of so so your cognitive load there is manageable

01:57:11   Yeah, yes

01:57:12   Because you don't things that are within reach you don't think about if you find yourself thinking words in your head or thinking little programs

01:57:18   Or macros or series of steps that is a much higher

01:57:22   cognitive load, then you're not thinking about it at all.

01:57:24   In the same way you don't think about it when you pull your phone out of your pocket, it's

01:57:27   always in the same pocket.

01:57:28   You don't think, "Okay, reach down and get phone out of pocket."

01:57:30   I only have one pocket.

01:57:31   I don't have a hundred frickin' pockets to go searching through.

01:57:34   I know, but you have a working set of things.

01:57:36   I'm just trying to show you that spatial memory is different than having-

01:57:39   I know where every pocket is.

01:57:40   Like, it's the same reason that what's going on with Marco doesn't name his tabs, right?

01:57:43   How do you know where they are?

01:57:44   Well, you know where they are by position.

01:57:45   You don't need to have custom tab titles on them, because if you had custom tab tiles,

01:57:48   that would imply that you're reading the titles of the tabs.

01:57:50   And once you find yourself reading the tiles of the tabs,

01:57:52   it shows you don't know where the thing is

01:57:53   you're looking for.

01:57:54   - Well, they also have labels to help that.

01:57:56   Just like, you know, they're pretty lightweight,

01:57:57   but like, you know what it looks like.

01:57:59   - So my main Chrome window always has Gmail

01:58:02   as the far left tab.

01:58:03   I don't even know what the title of the Gmail tab is.

01:58:05   It's always in the same place.

01:58:06   I'd always know exactly where it is.

01:58:08   I have all my tabs on my main Google window

01:58:11   are always in exactly the same order.

01:58:12   It's not just because like occasionally

01:58:14   I have accidentally closed that window

01:58:15   and lose it in history.

01:58:16   I can recreate it.

01:58:16   I know where everything is by position

01:58:19   because those are the tabs that I use most frequently.

01:58:21   And going for something based on where it is

01:58:25   or what shape it is or even like the color it is

01:58:27   or whatever, like recognizing the icon,

01:58:29   that does not require high level neurocognitive functions.

01:58:33   It just happens.

01:58:33   It's the same way you can find all the light switches

01:58:35   in your house and you can recognize what your car looks like

01:58:38   in the parking lot without reading the model number

01:58:39   off the side of the thing.

01:58:40   It's just visual recognition and where things are in space

01:58:43   and especially as it relates to you reaching for them,

01:58:45   even if it's virtually with a mouse,

01:58:47   it's so much more efficient than ever having to read

01:58:49   account things.

01:58:49   John, I always have terminal open on my computer. It always

01:58:56   has no less than three tabs. And they are always showing the

01:59:01   same things. I didn't even know it was possible to name a tab

01:59:06   because I only have three frickin tabs open at a time.

01:59:09   You just don't do a lot of things at once.

01:59:10   I guess I just, oh my god, it stresses me out so much just

01:59:17   thinking about the way you work. I mean, obviously it works for you. I'm not trying to,

01:59:20   I mean, I think you're freaking nuts, but it shouldn't, it shouldn't stress you. It really

01:59:24   is just the amount of things you have to do. And also your tolerance for like, if you can't manage

01:59:29   this mess, if you can't sort of like deal with this swarm of things, if they, if they feel like

01:59:34   they're overwhelming you rather than you controlling them, then that's a problem.

01:59:37   Right. But it should, you know, like these things don't come into existence on their own. I make

01:59:41   them and I put them in places. The thing that bothers me are things that are created that I

01:59:44   I can't arrange that like any application for example like met the messages app where as far as I know

01:59:51   Well, I guess you can pull out a separate conversation

01:59:53   But really it really wants you to use a single window for everything and I can't stand that because I have no control over what?

01:59:58   Order things are in the left sidebar and it's just one window and if something happens in some other conversation

02:00:03   I have to go find it click on it. I have to go find it and click on it

02:00:06   Whereas I'm gonna use a DM

02:00:07   It remembers window positions on a per person basis and I can tell who I'm talking to like how many times do I accidentally type?

02:00:13   the wrong thing to the wrong person in ADM? Almost never. How many times do I do it in

02:00:18   Messages? All the freaking time. Because it's the same text box for everybody. If you didn't

02:00:21   notice that you didn't change the mode to switch to the conversation you wanted to talk

02:00:24   in, you end up typing the wrong thing to the wrong person. ADM, that doesn't happen, even

02:00:28   though every single ADM window looks identical, visually speaking. Like, the colors are the

02:00:32   same and everything's the same. The only thing that's different is the size and position

02:00:36   of the windows. And if I have four conversations going out at the same time, I can keep track

02:00:39   of which four people I'm talking to, not by memorizing, "Okay, this person's in the upper

02:00:43   But just their window never moves unless I move it

02:00:45   It's tied to the person I'm talking to my wife's window is always in the same spot on the screen

02:00:49   And so I never accidentally typed something to a QA person that I should be typing to my wife because I would never do that

02:00:54   It's totally in a different position

02:00:55   I would never grab for that window

02:00:57   Whereas in messages I have to pay super careful attention to which little thing is scrolled up to the top and which little message

02:01:02   I've clicked on it's it's terrible

02:01:04   All right, so can we do titles before I just got weep?

02:01:10   My favorite title so far that was actually said during the regular show is something that we can say right now, which is

02:01:16   Nothing is resolved. Where is the

02:01:19   Where is the title thing?

02:01:22   Wait, wait

02:01:24   You didn't know where it was

02:01:26   I was expanding the little link thing on the top of the my my IRC window and I said where is the link to the

02:01:34   Titles, why don't you already have a window sounds like you just lost it

02:01:37   You didn't know exactly where it was because I well here's let me tell you why because I expand

02:01:42   I expand with the link not the window. I didn't have any windows over

02:01:46   Why didn't I have any windows open with the title thing because I close it when the show was over

02:01:49   Anyway, I turned down a little thing

02:01:51   And what I was looking for was titles because the incomparable one is titles dot incomparable calm

02:01:55   And so I didn't read all the Texas in the topic recording most Wednesdays 9 p.m. Blah blah blah

02:02:01   I didn't read it

02:02:01   I was just looking for the word title and didn't see it and

02:02:04   So I unexpanded it and then re-expanded it and then I said oh, yeah show bought it doesn't say title. Oh

02:02:09   my god

02:02:11   Titles dot in comparable calm something like that anyway

02:02:14   Oh my god, and see this is a hoarder would leave that leave the show bought open all the time

02:02:19   Yes, I do not I close it as soon as we're done with titles you hoard everything under the Sun, but you know

02:02:26   I don't I don't God that's gotta hear your self-esteem. It does. Oh my god

02:02:31   What things do you think I keep open that aren't like I mean I keep Gmail open because mail is always coming in you know

02:02:37   if there's something if I'm done reading something or if I don't need it now it gets closed and

02:02:41   If I don't need if I don't want to do like I have to remember the titles are a thing

02:02:45   I have to look at no, there's no pending task for titles. Oh

02:02:48   My god, I haven't been this upset since the Mac Pro episode

02:02:52   You think I should keep titles open all the time?

02:02:53   I'm afraid it's gonna open a bunch of web sockets and exhaust my file descriptors

02:02:57   I don't think I don't think it actually even works

02:03:00   you could leave it open all the time because it clears itself out eventually breaks and then dies

02:03:03   yeah it eventually times itself out but oh god I just can't handle this I just I literally can't

02:03:11   even nothing is resolved this is this is either the best or worst ending to the show that I've

02:03:16   ever heard I didn't even get to talk about the the follow-up by the PlayStation 4 controller

02:03:19   but I'll save it for next week we'll need something next week so that's fine that windows

02:03:24   always open to ATP show notes set a tab in my main window always the show notes

02:03:30   are our closest show notes are always there yeah because I'm all week I'm

02:03:33   finding things thrown in the show notes don't need to open a new window for it

02:03:36   don't need to go to a bookmark don't even know what the URL is because there's

02:03:39   some crazy Google Docs thing I just never close it so here's a here's a

02:03:42   question why don't you do that with more things that you keep in tabs do what

02:03:48   like why don't you take so many of those tabs that you have open for a month and

02:03:52   and make a document somewhere with them

02:03:54   or save them somewhere so that you can recall them later

02:03:57   so you don't have to have all these tabs open.

02:03:58   - That's what Instapaper is.

02:03:59   - Right.

02:04:00   - If they're open in a browser window,

02:04:01   it's because they've gone up to another level

02:04:03   because it's like, I don't want this to get buried

02:04:05   in Instapaper because I'll forget about it.

02:04:06   I actually do want to read it.

02:04:08   So leave it here.

02:04:09   Either you want to read it or show it to somebody

02:04:10   or it's something that I can only do on my Mac

02:04:12   so I want to remember.

02:04:13   Oh yeah, when I'm on my Mac,

02:04:14   there was that one thing that I couldn't look at

02:04:15   on my iPad for some reason.

02:04:17   Trying to remember to like,

02:04:19   oh, now that I'm on my Mac doing something,

02:04:21   I should look at that one thing that I couldn't a good example, which I have open right now is zero punctuation

02:04:26   Which does this thing of like pay if you want the HTML 5 version?

02:04:29   So you they intentionally make it so you can't watch it on iOS device

02:04:31   Which is generally when I want to watch these videos, so I have the window open to remind me

02:04:36   Hey, you're sitting out at your Mac

02:04:37   And you have some free time to do something zero punctuation is there and you can only watch it when you're here

02:04:41   So don't leave the computer until you do and I did watch a bunch of them the other day

02:04:44   But I'm not all caught up. Sorry if the window open

02:04:46   (sighs)

02:04:48   (laughs)

02:04:49   - I can't even concentrate right now.

02:04:52   - I hope the seven rabid window shade fads all right in.

02:04:56   - I like window shade, that I don't take issue with.

02:04:58   I take issue with you having 300 windows open at a time.

02:05:01   - Marco couldn't handle the sticks, the sticks.

02:05:03   - No, it looks really weird to me.

02:05:04   Like why, I don't know.

02:05:05   - Think of it as like a phantom window.

02:05:07   Like only like, it's like the shadow of the window is there.

02:05:10   Like we-

02:05:11   - Well, then why not just leave the window there?

02:05:12   Like the whole point of hiding or minimizing windows

02:05:14   is to get them off the screen completely.

02:05:15   I know, but like most of the window is gone,

02:05:17   it's just the title bar.

02:05:18   And title bars tend to be near the top anyway, so.

02:05:21   But you can see like where the window was,

02:05:23   you can visualize it being there.

02:05:24   And the other thing is like it used to be

02:05:25   for like peeking behind a window,

02:05:27   like you just wanna see what's behind it briefly,

02:05:29   but you don't wanna change the focus,

02:05:31   you just go, you know, double click or click

02:05:33   and zip, zip, you know, like actually shade

02:05:35   to peek at the thing that's behind.

02:05:37   You don't have a good way to do that these days,

02:05:38   you can, you know, if you option click the window behind,

02:05:41   you've hidden the one before and you can't get back to it.

02:05:43   If you minimize the dock, you had to go chase it down there

02:05:45   to get it to come back out or do a keyboard combo for it.

02:05:47   But if you peek, peek, peek,

02:05:49   you would use it if it was there.

02:05:50   Surprisingly useful.

02:05:52   Maybe you wouldn't use it as like all the time

02:05:53   or have lots of things minified,

02:05:54   but I think that peeking thing actually comes in handy.

02:05:58   - Oh man.

02:05:59   I'm telling you, this is your app.

02:06:01   - I know this is an app that I wanted,

02:06:03   but I'd never write an app like that.

02:06:05   'Cause it's really complicated to make

02:06:07   and you have to tie deeply into like the Windows server,

02:06:10   essentially using like private undocumented APIs.

02:06:13   Who wants to maintain that?

02:06:15   - Maybe instead of making this be your app,

02:06:18   the file system, you know,

02:06:19   I think that the file system crusade has been fought

02:06:23   as much as you can fight it.

02:06:25   And I think it's out of your hands now.

02:06:26   Like there's nothing more-

02:06:27   - Like it was ever in my hands, when was it in my hands?

02:06:29   Tell me about that time.

02:06:30   - There's nothing more you can do

02:06:32   to try to convince Apple to make a new file system.

02:06:35   Like you've done everything you possibly could to do that.

02:06:38   - I can continue to complain.

02:06:39   but you still, now you could refocus your efforts

02:06:44   from that, which I think is, probably has reached the end

02:06:47   of what you can really do with that.

02:06:49   Now you can start not making a window shade app,

02:06:51   but trying to make Apple add that feature back to the OS.

02:06:54   - Well, it was a window shape.

02:06:55   It was a window shape for OS X for a long time, remember?

02:06:58   You guys don't remember that.

02:07:00   - No. - It was an insanity thing.

02:07:01   It was a haxy.

02:07:03   - Oh, okay, well, that doesn't count, yeah.

02:07:04   - Well, but I used it for years.

02:07:05   That was the last one I used.

02:07:07   Eventually, you know, I re-read my system

02:07:08   of all those weird system extensions

02:07:10   and that was the last one to go.

02:07:11   But now, you know, it's long gone.

02:07:14   I don't use any of those things anymore.

02:07:16   And you know, when the shit I get along with that,

02:07:18   I don't miss it that much.

02:07:19   I don't miss it as much as like a, you know,

02:07:21   a working finder.

02:07:22   That I miss more.

02:07:25   Oh my God, all right.

02:07:27   - Can I go to bed and like weep for John?

02:07:30   - No, don't try to weep for my computing.

02:07:34   If you saw me using my computer,

02:07:37   it wouldn't seem that weird to you.

02:07:38   You have no idea how happy this crystal meth makes me.

02:07:40   Just let me keep abusing it.

02:07:41   - No, it doesn't do it.

02:07:43   There's no harmful effects.

02:07:44   In fact, the harmful effect seems to be on you, not me.

02:07:46   - It does.

02:07:47   That's why I want you to stop doing it.

02:07:49   - I mean, like I said, I feel the same way

02:07:50   when I see someone using a computer,

02:07:52   this incredibly powerful computer with a huge screen

02:07:54   and they have like two windows open.

02:07:56   And every time they want something new,

02:07:57   they open a new window, use it, and then close it.

02:08:00   Like they never sort of arranged their workspace

02:08:02   into like a set of things that they're currently working on.

02:08:05   - And you never close a window.

02:08:06   - Well, like I said, the worst thing

02:08:07   when someone's working, you know, if you're doing programming you end up editing multiple

02:08:10   files even if you know like if you have a header file and implementation file and there's

02:08:14   multiple like programming is necessarily dealing with multiple files, web programming even

02:08:19   more so because it's just a lot of files and you're working on them all at the same time.

02:08:22   It's not like you're working on one then you stop and you work on another then you stop

02:08:26   I mean you kind of do but you're cycling between them so often that if the overhead of going

02:08:31   to fetch the other one is too high you'll kill yourself.

02:08:33   So when I see people, they will only have one window,

02:08:37   one, they call it the text editing window.

02:08:39   And it fills the entire screen and whatever their editor is,

02:08:41   they work on one document and then they close it.

02:08:43   They open another document, they work on it

02:08:45   and they close it.

02:08:46   They open another document, work on it and close it.

02:08:47   And occasionally they'll split the view

02:08:49   and open one document in like a single splitter

02:08:51   so they can see them both at once.

02:08:53   But this is on a giant screen,

02:08:55   often in portrait orientation.

02:08:56   And that is like,

02:08:57   and then if you want them to like do something

02:08:59   in the command line, they close all their editing windows

02:09:02   because that's also the terminal window

02:09:03   and then they type a command.

02:09:04   And if that command doesn't return

02:09:06   and give them their prompt back,

02:09:07   like the frequent phrase I find myself saying to people is,

02:09:10   open another terminal window

02:09:13   or get me another shell prompt.

02:09:14   It's like, they just work with one

02:09:16   and whatever that one shell prompt

02:09:17   and just, this is the equivalent of Casey

02:09:20   not understanding my millions of windows.

02:09:22   I can't understand if people get anything done with one,

02:09:24   like they just use one, no tabs, no multiple windows.

02:09:28   - This is such a false dichotomy.

02:09:30   - Well, I'm not, this is the other end of the spectrum.

02:09:32   And I'm trying to say, I understand Casey's frustration

02:09:35   in seeing someone use a computer the way they don't think,

02:09:37   but the thing is, he's not even seeing me use a computer.

02:09:39   He's just visualizing it in his mind.

02:09:41   But that's the way people feel comfortable.

02:09:43   Like that's what they can keep track of

02:09:45   is one thing at a time.

02:09:46   Or you guys can keep track of is like,

02:09:47   your four terminal windows with a couple of tabs.

02:09:50   I can keep track of a lot.

02:09:51   I've been doing this a long time.

02:09:53   - The thing of it is, is if you told me you had like

02:09:57   four Safari windows open and there's a few tabs in each,

02:10:01   - Yeah, I would still think you're a little crazy,

02:10:03   but you know, whatever.

02:10:04   But what did you say?

02:10:05   30 windows with something to the order of six tabs a window?

02:10:08   No human being, I don't, even you.

02:10:10   - Well, not every window has six tabs.

02:10:12   Like, I mean, you know, so my bug tracking window

02:10:15   has four tabs here.

02:10:16   My titles window has no tabs

02:10:19   'cause it's just the bug tracker.

02:10:21   Occasionally I consolidate,

02:10:22   but I don't like consolidating things

02:10:23   that aren't grouped together.

02:10:24   Like I wouldn't stick,

02:10:26   I would never stick the zero punctuation window

02:10:29   as a tab in the same window as the titles thing.

02:10:31   'Cause they're not related.

02:10:32   - God, I can't handle this.

02:10:34   - And we still haven't picked the title.

02:10:35   - Nothing is resolved.

02:10:37   - Nothing is resolved, Marco.

02:10:39   Oh God.

02:10:40   I'm frustrated enough that I looked at CMF saying

02:10:43   the windows of Syracuse accounting

02:10:45   and almost thought to myself,

02:10:46   you know, maybe we should use that.

02:10:48   It doesn't really matter obviously,

02:10:50   but oh, just thinking about it just stresses me out.

02:10:54   Let's talk about the Mac Pro some, just to calm me down.

02:10:57   Look, there's another window shade app out there.

02:11:00   I'd never heard of this one.

02:11:01   Not that I'm gonna install it

02:11:02   'cause I'm assuming it's a crazy system hack,

02:11:03   but WindowMizer.

02:11:06   WindowMizer is an application

02:11:07   that lets you see what's behind the front window

02:11:09   without minimizing the current window to the dock.

02:11:11   They're pitching it at that use as the main feature.

02:11:14   - Oh my God. - No thanks.

02:11:16   - All right, your choices are nothing is resolved

02:11:17   or the county one?

02:11:19   - No, that is not a choice.

02:11:20   (laughing)

02:11:21   - We'll see.

02:11:23   Now I'm tempted to do it just 'cause I know

02:11:24   it'll bother you.

02:11:25   - If there was ever a time to do a Syracuse County title,

02:11:27   This is it. I think you're right. No, we're not doing there is no time. What are you talking about?

02:11:32   Like suddenly a time for this. There's no time

02:11:35   Coming around I'm coming around it once you give in to the

02:11:39   That's the thing I can't give CMF his her her no, but

02:11:45   Nothing is resolved. So if there was ever a time like I was ever a time. Oh, there's not

02:11:51   County about this

02:11:53   Windows doesn't sound like bridges. You'd have to go for a bridges angle

02:11:56   That's where it came from. It was a bridge, it was a show about bridges.

02:12:01   You can't just take like, "Well, I'm gonna take the Syracuse County part."

02:12:04   Like, there's nothing geographic. It doesn't make any sense.

02:12:06   You just take the blank of Syracuse County. That's the worst of the Syracuse County titles.

02:12:10   This means, you know, you can take anything and stick it there.

02:12:12   [laughter]

02:12:13   This is still all you're doing. He's encouraging us to do it now.

02:12:17   It'd be your show with this title on it. Think about it.

02:12:20   No, I have never, in every other suggestion that people have had

02:12:25   of some stupid Syracuse County title I have never thought it was worth using I

02:12:29   agree how is this one better how is this noun stuck into the Mad Libs better than

02:12:33   the other this I think this is completely worth it I think if we if we

02:12:40   use a Syracuse a county title once in this entire podcast in the entire run of

02:12:44   however long we end up doing this I think this is a good candidate for that

02:12:47   oh god I agree are you committing to only do it once then yes yeah I think we

02:12:52   only could do it once, and I think this is such a good opportunity. I would do it.

02:12:55   Well, feel free and see if you want to do it.

02:12:58   Yes! All right!

02:12:59   But it's terrible titles. And then enjoy the crazy amount of suggestions that you will, like,

02:13:05   That's the thing. We are all agreeing, ahem, CMF, ahem, that we are never going to recommend

02:13:11   this again if this works.

02:13:12   Yeah, I'm sure this will work, yeah.

02:13:14   No, I'm telling you, that's it. That's the deal.

02:13:16   At least we stopped getting "That's fine for Buddha."

02:13:18   That was the thing? I never noticed that.

02:13:20   It wasn't yes, it was a it was it was a holdover from back to work that somehow leaked into our titles early on

02:13:25   I thought we don't talk about tonight me too. I thought this was gonna be a short show

02:13:36   We'd like barely get like to an hour 20

02:13:38   I have no idea what to talk about because as you know, the news isn't that interesting and I

02:13:42   Thought we'd be scraping around for you know desperation topics

02:13:46   Well, I can talk to people all day about how they're not using their computers to their false potential.

02:13:51   [laughter]

02:13:58   Alright, like, think of it this way. When you see somebody else use a computer,

02:14:01   do you feel like they could be doing it better or faster?

02:14:05   Of course! Yeah, all the time.

02:14:08   I have that feeling so much. I cannot look at other people who use computers.

02:14:11   I can't imagine what it's like for you.

02:14:13   I like that just that they're that they're like, this is the hell of your life

02:14:17   It's not as bad as like having two hands on the mouse slowly

02:14:20   To the clothes box, but that's what it feels like

02:14:23   And I feel better when I see you ever see the people who do everything in one window

02:14:28   but do everything on keyboard those touch typist people at least I feel better about those people because

02:14:32   They may not be as efficient as they could be but it's clear that they have a system and so it's like

02:14:39   Just a flurry of commands and the screen is splitting and flashing and changing from one thing to the other and they're probably doing more

02:14:45   Work than they have to but things are happening

02:14:47   versus the person who you see using the computer and

02:14:50   You make a suggestion. It's like alright, so I got to go to that that server

02:14:55   I guess I get a new window here and I could type

02:14:59   You go to the server every day you

02:15:03   know

02:15:05   There's no shortcut. There's no alias. There's no there's no keyboard shortcut. There's no existing open window

02:15:10   It's like a brand new thing every time an open and terminal and no type

02:15:15   G-o-o-g-l-e dot cons. I know so I can't you know, that's I feel

02:15:22   when I see anybody using a computer and I have a

02:15:25   Lighter version of that same feeling when I see someone using a computer a massively powerful computer with a huge screen that has three windows open

02:15:33   So would it just drive you insane if I told you I kind of like the full screen mode and whatever came in online

02:15:40   Not full screen like is appropriate for certain things like especially if you have an 11 inch MacBook Air or something

02:15:45   Yeah

02:15:46   The full screen is not that big anyway

02:15:48   And you just want to get rid of the window chrome and fill it up and people use spaces

02:15:51   I can kind of see what they're doing at least something is happening

02:15:54   I am obsessive about space as they swipe from place to place of spaces

02:15:57   It makes you arrangements like this is my goofing off space and this is my workspace and this is my you know

02:16:02   Console logging space or whatever and it makes people sort of arrange things

02:16:05   I think swiping between them with the animation gets a little tiresome and kind of make me seasick

02:16:10   Which is one of the many reasons I don't use it and I hate forgetting what space something is in every time I've tried

02:16:14   To use it. I guess I don't have a system but it is a system

02:16:17   It is not I just have like a window here and like when I watch my parents use a computer

02:16:21   I want them to only have one window because they cannot handle overlapping windows at all

02:16:24   Like once there's one window behind another window, they've lost it. It's gone

02:16:27   They don't have object permanence for windows. Like where did that go?

02:16:31   - No, it's the same place where it was before,

02:16:33   unless you moved it.

02:16:34   - Right, they have the same number of windows as you,

02:16:36   but for a completely different reason.

02:16:37   - No, they have like two windows.

02:16:39   They have two, maybe three windows.

02:16:41   Like they do not have a lot of windows,

02:16:43   but even two or three, because they can't all be

02:16:45   on the same, because they want the browser window

02:16:46   to be really big, eventually it hides all the other ones

02:16:48   and they lose track of them.

02:16:50   So they have a very different problem.

02:16:52   - Oh my God. - I can't even handle this.

02:16:54   - We have to go to bed.

02:16:56   - We do. - And you wondered why

02:16:57   I was excited about us splitting the screen in the iPad.

02:17:00   No, I don't how many how many icons do you have on your desktop?

02:17:04   My desktop is pretty neat. I have a cluster to the left. Oh, yeah, okay

02:17:09   Yeah, when's the last time you've seen your desktop? I just see right now. You know how I saw it without even thinking about it

02:17:14   How do you think I did it hot corner? Yes hot corner. Of course hot corners are awesome

02:17:18   I did not have to think about how how many go my desktop

02:17:21   Should I click on the finder and then command option H? No it happened before without even thinking look at my desktop. Boom

02:17:27   It's there in front of me. I don't know how it happened my hand flick the cursor into the car

02:17:31   On my left side I've got a couple of folders for the things I'm working on now, I've got my

02:17:38   Call recorder recording folder. I got a folder that my wife keeps on my thing

02:17:43   My arse technical folder I have the my media drive alias

02:17:47   I hate server aliases they do you have server aliases break for you in the finder?

02:17:51   Like you'll make an alias of a server that you mount and you're like now

02:17:54   I'll be able to mount that easily and then every once in a while the icon just goes generic and it doesn't work anymore

02:17:58   I don't know what else I have never been able to reliably reconnect to a finder network share in any way besides going to the

02:18:05   Computer in the list and remounting it like every other method has always failed and eventually

02:18:09   aliases work for me for a while and I keep recreating because I use a lot and then I've got nothing in the whole middle of

02:18:15   The desktop and on the right side of the desktop

02:18:17   I have a bunch of files that are kind of like temp scrap files for work

02:18:21   One of the files is a garage band file that he used to check my levels occasionally

02:18:25   Because it shows the waveform when I talk into it. I don't make sure I'm not clipping to adjust the gain and stuff like that

02:18:30   I've got Kate's coloring pages in a folder there

02:18:33   She's always having me find pictures for her and print them out so she can color them in

02:18:37   I've got a couple of podcasts that I wish I could put into overcast, but I can't because Marco won't let me upload files

02:18:48   link to

02:18:50   What is this a link to a toilet part that I just bought that I need to like

02:18:54   File that away somewhere and that's about it

02:18:56   So it's maybe like one two three four five six seven eight eight nine icons and then to drive icons

02:19:01   Yeah, how many I have one? No, you're not doing a lot of stuff. You didn't just repair a toilet

02:19:06   You're not checking your microphone levels

02:19:08   You don't know that so I I did you prepare a toilet three times actually because I kept doing it wrong

02:19:12   Did you save links to the place where you got the part so you can find it next time it breaks? Nope

02:19:17   Because first of all who cares second of all I bought them all on Amazon and Amazon keeps a whole history of everything

02:19:24   I ever bought yeah

02:19:24   No

02:19:25   I always end up getting it from these random

02:19:26   Plumbing supply companies whenever I sound I like I really just need to turn that into a noting your Jimbo like for example when I get

02:19:32   replacement wiper blades

02:19:33   I always forget what sizes they are for the different cars so the first time I buy them

02:19:36   I just write them down with links to the things and yeah Amazon is good about finding your orders although

02:19:40   Sometimes when I search their order history. I wonder if it's like losing things

02:19:43   It's difficult because sometimes I buy through my wife's Amazon account sometimes through mine

02:19:47   But anyway, I keep a pretty neat desktop. I mean I want to see I want to see the pictures there

02:19:51   That's not a lot of icons for a big screen

02:19:54   You know what you know what desktops look like of people who don't manage their desktops. It's just basically covered with like yeah

02:19:58   They look like your browser windows is what they look like no everything's managed

02:20:02   I know exactly where everything is it has a place everything has a place

02:20:05   I don't I just I can just mouse over it just happens

02:20:07   I don't even know how it gets there my mouse just guides itself right there

02:20:10   I could close any of these anytime. I just choose not to it's true

02:20:14   Also, how many icons you have on your desktop, Margo?

02:20:16   I don't want to count. So eyeballing it's probably about 10 or 12.

02:20:20   See? Same as me. It's just whatever stuff you happen to be working on that's in flight.

02:20:24   And like the kids coloring page stuff I just leave in the desktop just because, I mean, I could put it in Quicksilver too if I wanted.

02:20:29   But it's just convenient to have it there. Also because I drag things out of Safari windows, I want to drag them, you know,

02:20:34   once you get to the full-size version of the image, it's convenient just to be able to drag it out of a window and drop it into the folder.

02:20:40   You know I mean and so then the folder folder was on the desktop is easy to do that because just start the drag flicking

02:20:45   To the corner or since they're on the right edge half time they're visible anyway

02:20:48   Why don't you just leave the window open all the time with the image?

02:20:51   You don't have you don't have to say they print it and when I print it. It's gone. It's done

02:20:54   I'm not leaving things around for for no reason they all have a purpose and once the purpose is done

02:20:59   They close yes

02:21:01   Unless it's a monitoring type thing that I'm looking at all the time like Gmail

02:21:04   And the wonderful thing is John on an infinite time scale everything has a purpose

02:21:09   That's not how the infinite timescale argument works

02:21:11   An infinite timescale every window closes

02:21:16   We're done we're done I can't take this anymore

02:21:25   The thing the infinite timescale argument we're not done because you can't keep bringing this up like it's a running gag

02:21:32   And you don't quite understand it the infinite timescale argument

02:21:36   For the benefit of the chat room and the people and the other two hosts of this program the

02:21:41   argument is for when

02:21:43   Somebody agrees with you that something will happen, but anytime you you try to pin it down with a date

02:21:48   They say oh well no that won't happen then so it's like you agree. This is going to happen

02:21:52   But the only way I can get you to agree with that is say well

02:21:56   What about 500 years in the future and say oh yes? Well of course that'll happen to 500 years future

02:22:01   What about next week never what about next year never what about next five years never what about 500 years in the future?

02:22:06   Okay, I agree. So if you agree, it's somewhere between 500 years in the future and now where between there is it?

02:22:12   You're trying to get someone to you know, is this something that you both agree will eventually happen

02:22:16   but every time you throw out a date in this sent in the

02:22:18   Conceivable future they say no

02:22:21   So that's what the that that's what you're doing with an infinite timescale argument is basically

02:22:24   Getting someone to agree this who we both think this is going to happen

02:22:28   All we're arguing about is when and the only way you can get to that is by throwing out a ridiculous date

02:22:33   Like well, what about 500 years in the future?

02:22:35   Then will we have more than 16 gigs of flash memory on iOS devices?

02:22:38   And you say oh sure 500 in the future. Of course you will right and that's like, alright

02:22:43   Well, then let's back that up and see where we can get it's not

02:22:46   Let's extrapolate into the future and say that something is going to happen if we just keep advancing time

02:22:51   It's not quite the same thing. Is that a saying, you know, every window has a purpose if you wait long enough

02:22:55   It's a nuanced thing when you guys keep using it wrong and I want you to be able to employ this in your life as well

02:23:02   I forget I felt what I really originally used it. He was convincing Marco of some what was the original?

02:23:08   It was something with me you're right, but I forget it was something about like, you know

02:23:14   a feature hardware feature coming to max or something. Oh, you know, I think I think it was was

02:23:18   Whether Apple needed what ended up being Swift like what the whole, you know, Copeland 20, whatever

02:23:25   Yeah, it was like I was saying like objective C is fine and it will be fine for a long time and right

02:23:29   And I was like, okay, what does a long time mean? It's like, I don't know, you know

02:23:32   It's like well eventually they're gonna need a language and you know

02:23:35   What does eventually mean or whatever turns out eventually mean it like six months from then?

02:23:38   Yeah, right

02:23:39   But that's the whole point

02:23:40   The whole point was not to convince you that if you wait for the heat death of the universe Apple have a new program

02:23:45   The point was to get us to both agree that they need a new one and an over arguing about is when?

02:23:50   Okay, glad we got that resolved and that eventually I win that argument

02:23:58   Okay, are we really done now?

02:24:00   [