ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Wait, we can't do it on 31st because Casey you might want to be at a New Year's party

00:00:03 ◼   ► I'm going to any parties anymore that part of his life is over now. Well, I notice I didn't even ask you John

00:00:08 ◼   ► That's my birthday. It is the 31st. It's his 40th birthday Marco get with the program. Oh, man, where have I been? Oh

00:00:14 ◼   ► You're the worst. Okay, so we won't record that day. Oh we can know it's a terrible. No, why is it a terrible idea?

00:00:20 ◼   ► I'm not going anywhere. Oh, that's bullshit. I'll be in the house. You should be going somewhere

00:00:25 ◼   ► So we're gonna should not be is my birthday gonna do what I want. I want to stay home

00:00:28 ◼   ► That's the BS where people think your birthday is about them and what they want to do.

00:00:33 ◼   ► I don't care what you want to do on my birthday. I care what I want to do.

00:00:37 ◼   ► Oh, Jon, I love you so much. Well, I'll talk to Tina and make sure that I understand that schedule.

00:00:43 ◼   ► We're not doing anything. We never do anything for my birthday. We're not doing anything for my birthday this year.

00:00:46 ◼   ► Is that her gift to you every year is not doing anything?

00:00:49 ◼   ► Yes, that's what I ask for every year. What do you want for your birthday? No gifts and no party.

00:00:52 ◼   ► Do you want to do some follow-up really quickly? Starting with batteries.

00:00:58 ◼   ► Sure, I think we were talking about how on the watch the components will have to go down

00:01:05 ◼   ► in power because the battery is not going to save it because batteries were only increasing,

00:01:09 ◼   ► not increasing as fast as the power usage of the internals of the watch might decrease

00:01:13 ◼   ► in their power thirst.

00:01:16 ◼   ► And I think I threw out a number like 15% year over year or something.

00:01:20 ◼   ► Anthony Fitti wrote in to say that the number is actually much lower than that and I talked

00:01:25 ◼   ► about this on hypercritical number 74 which is way back in when June of 2012 had a similar

00:01:31 ◼   ► show and wondered the same thing and probably got feedback probably from the same person

00:01:34 ◼   ► I don't even remember but anyway the actual number is more like seven to eight percent

00:01:38 ◼   ► year over year for battery increases so if you're looking for battery technology to save

00:01:44 ◼   ► the watch that's not going to happen it's going to be just like the phone where the

00:01:46 ◼   ► components are just going to have to go down in power usage and it's going to be a long

00:01:51 ◼   ► time before batteries are twice as good as they are now, four times as good, ten times

00:01:55 ◼   ► as good.

00:01:56 ◼   ► Yeah, there's something about the, a lot of the watch speculation from people has really

00:02:02 ◼   ► kind of annoyed me.

00:02:03 ◼   ► People keep saying, "Oh, well, you know, right now the watch is going to have this

00:02:07 ◼   ► battery life.

00:02:08 ◼   ► It's going to have, you know, one day.

00:02:09 ◼   ► But in only a few years it's going to have way better battery life."

00:02:13 ◼   ► And I think this is not only, you know, related to the feedback, it's not only an overestimation

00:02:17 ◼   ► of how quickly batteries get better, but also I think it's ignoring the way things usually

00:02:23 ◼   ► tend to happen with computer form factors.

00:02:27 ◼   ► Look at the phone, for instance.

00:02:28 ◼   ► Look at the iPhone.

00:02:29 ◼   ► The very first iPhone battery life was roughly a day of usage.

00:02:35 ◼   ► Almost every iPhone since then has been roughly a day of usage.

00:02:40 ◼   ► You know, like the 6 Plus, now it's like maybe two days for some people depending on

00:02:45 ◼   ► it. But the battery life in the entire iPhone line in the last, what, seven and a half years

00:02:52 ◼   ► has stayed pretty much the same, you know, give and take here and there, but in the same

00:02:57 ◼   ► ballpark. We're not talking about orders of magnitude difference here. You know, it's

00:03:01 ◼   ► not going from a day to a week or to a month. Because the reality is you're bound by how

00:03:08 ◼   ► how much mass you have to devote to battery space, and generally what kind of power outputs

00:03:15 ◼   ► you need. And things like radios, it's hard to make those lower power because you need

00:03:19 ◼   ► a certain amount of transmit power, etc. Screens, you know, you have to emit a certain amount

00:03:24 ◼   ► of light. And so even like the watch, I suspect they're going to go to OLED screens, either

00:03:30 ◼   ► in the first version or soon afterwards. And I suspect that's why everything is designed

00:03:35 ◼   ► with black backgrounds because OLEDs, as far as I know, actually only use electricity to

00:03:39 ◼   ► light up the lit pixels, is that right?

00:03:41 ◼   ► Yeah, each individual pixel emits light so if you have ones that are entirely off, they

00:03:45 ◼   ► don't.

00:03:46 ◼   ► Right, so if you have an all black screen with a few thin white lines, that actually

00:03:49 ◼   ► doesn't use a whole lot of power for the LED.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Anyway, ultimately I think the watch is always going to be extremely battery constrained.

00:03:57 ◼   ► It's always going to last roughly a day.

00:04:00 ◼   ► That's always going to be the target because what's going to happen when the battery gets

00:04:04 ◼   ► eight percent more efficient next year.

00:04:06 ◼   ► They're gonna make the watch eight percent thinner

00:04:08 ◼   ► or something, like that's what they do.

00:04:10 ◼   ► They're not gonna make it 10 times larger

00:04:13 ◼   ► and give you a week of battery life.

00:04:15 ◼   ► That's, like typically if you look at

00:04:17 ◼   ► different form factors of technology,

00:04:21 ◼   ► same thing in tablets.

00:04:22 ◼   ► Tablets have roughly 10 hours of battery life usually.

00:04:25 ◼   ► And that's not a coincidence, it's because everyone

00:04:28 ◼   ► just kind of figured, okay, well the best balance

00:04:30 ◼   ► of weight to brightness to computational power

00:04:34 ◼   ► to radios to size gives roughly these proportions

00:04:39 ◼   ► and it's roughly in that ballpark.

00:04:41 ◼   ► The watch I don't think is ever gonna be at the point

00:04:44 ◼   ► where it gets a month of battery life

00:04:47 ◼   ► like a traditional watch or even longer.

00:04:49 ◼   ► I think we're always gonna be measuring it

00:04:51 ◼   ► in small numbers of days for,

00:04:55 ◼   ► and well, not always on an infinite time scale,

00:04:58 ◼   ► but not, maybe not on a Syracuse time scale,

00:05:01 ◼   ► but for the foreseeable future,

00:05:04 ◼   ► and I'm talking probably a decade, possibly longer,

00:05:09 ◼   ► I think that's the kind of magnitude of battery life

00:05:12 ◼   ► we're gonna be talking about here.

00:05:13 ◼   ► I don't think that's going to change.

00:05:14 ◼   ► - For all the battery stuff for these things,

00:05:16 ◼   ► you can just think of the battery as constant,

00:05:18 ◼   ► even though it's seven to 8% a year.

00:05:19 ◼   ► Compared to everything else, it's basically constant.

00:05:21 ◼   ► And what Apple in particular has done,

00:05:24 ◼   ► even if you just ignore thickness and stuff,

00:05:26 ◼   ► which we talk about a lot,

00:05:27 ◼   ► If you just made it a little bit thicker every year they spend the additional resources like that

00:05:32 ◼   ► You know say they do a process shrink

00:05:34 ◼   ► Oh now we have all this extra power overhead because all our stuff takes less power or we switch to OLED. We just got

00:05:38 ◼   ► 40 50 percent screen power back. What are we gonna do with all that?

00:05:43 ◼   ► Well, what they do with all is they spend it on compute they make the CPU faster

00:05:46 ◼   ► They make the GPU faster and how much faster they decide to make it how much do they spend on RAM?

00:05:50 ◼   ► CPU GPU they spend as much as they possibly can

00:05:53 ◼   ► while keeping the thing the same thickness or thinner and keeping the same battery life.

00:05:57 ◼   ► But that's where they spend it all because the CPUs keep getting faster and faster and they keep with the shrinks like

00:06:02 ◼   ► when they have the shrink if they had the shrink and said let's just keep the CPU the same as it was we're not gonna

00:06:07 ◼   ► go to 64-bit we're not gonna go to three cores we're not gonna go to two cores

00:06:10 ◼   ► we're just gonna have one core our battery life could be tremendous now, but they don't they always spend it

00:06:14 ◼   ► I mean as soon as they get the the additional power savings from the major components

00:06:20 ◼   ► Not the additional battery life, the additional power savings.

00:06:23 ◼   ► They spend as much as they can to meet their goal, which in Apple's case tends to be thinner

00:06:27 ◼   ► if possible and whatever the target battery life is.

00:06:31 ◼   ► Other people could be spending that same windfall, again, not a windfall from battery gains,

00:06:35 ◼   ► windfall from lower power components.

00:06:37 ◼   ► They could spend it in all sorts of ways.

00:06:39 ◼   ► They could spend it merely by increasing their battery life and just keep it the same.

00:06:42 ◼   ► Then we'd be using a CPU and a GPU that are as powerful as the iPhone 1, but our battery

00:06:46 ◼   ► life would be insane.

00:06:47 ◼   ► But nobody wants that, I don't think.

00:06:49 ◼   ► Yep, probably not. I don't know. This is going to be our photo management thing, like from the prompt,

00:06:57 ◼   ► isn't it? Where we just continually complain about the fact that Apple is insisting on thin

00:07:02 ◼   ► over everything. I don't complain about it. I think it's a reasonable thing to do. It's just

00:07:06 ◼   ► that when you diversify the line of products, maybe there's room finally for one that varies

00:07:11 ◼   ► in this way. You know what I mean? Like when there's just one product and then you're constantly

00:07:16 ◼   ► making it thinner, it seems like you might be missing out. But they have such a range,

00:07:19 ◼   ► especially with the big giant phone, it seems like there'd be room in their lineup to make a different compromise in this particular area.

00:07:25 ◼   ► Instead of going across the board, it's always got to be

00:07:28 ◼   ► thinner for the target battery life. Right, like what if there was an iPhone 6 thick?

00:07:33 ◼   ► One millimeter thicker than the 5s with the 6, not the 6 Plus, because that might be a little unwieldy at the 6 Plus size,

00:07:40 ◼   ► but with the regular 6,

00:07:43 ◼   ► slightly thicker than the 5S,

00:07:44 ◼   ► instead of being slightly thinner than it.

00:07:46 ◼   ► That might give it 40% more battery life,

00:07:49 ◼   ► and it would be a little heavier as a result.

00:07:50 ◼   ► And see, this is the problem with batteries,

00:07:52 ◼   ► is that they're heavy too.

00:07:53 ◼   ► Like it isn't just about making space for them,

00:07:56 ◼   ► it's also about weight.

00:07:57 ◼   ► - That's why I said you could go

00:07:58 ◼   ► for the iPhone 5 form factor,

00:08:01 ◼   ► like if they bring that back,

00:08:02 ◼   ► well, you know what I mean.

00:08:03 ◼   ► Make a new phone in that size,

00:08:04 ◼   ► instead of just continuing the 5S and the 5C.

00:08:07 ◼   ► If you made the cheap phone thick,

00:08:08 ◼   ► the cheap small phone, make it thick,

00:08:11 ◼   ► Then it's like, well, the top of the line one is super thin and sexy.

00:08:15 ◼   ► If you get the four inch model, which is, you know,

00:08:19 ◼   ► I guess it's still that the five s internals like put a thicker battery

00:08:23 ◼   ► on that one, then then it kind of makes sense in the lineup

00:08:25 ◼   ► rather than trying to make the big expensive one thick.

00:08:27 ◼   ► Because like you said, heavier feels like, hey, shouldn't I you know, this

00:08:31 ◼   ► this feels shouldn't I be getting the sleek one like the Palm

00:08:35 ◼   ► five was the sleek Palm and it was because it was so much thinner than the other.

00:08:38 ◼   ► Palm five was so good.

00:08:40 ◼   ► Go. You ever look at one recently?

00:08:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, I looked at mine recently, it's just gigantic.

00:08:43 ◼   ► - Really?

00:08:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, it just does not look like you remember it

00:08:47 ◼   ► in your mind.

00:08:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause I had the 5X after my 3X finally died.

00:08:52 ◼   ► Like it took so long for anything else to come out

00:08:55 ◼   ► that was as good as the 5X.

00:08:58 ◼   ► - Was that 160 by 160 pixel screen?

00:09:00 ◼   ► - I believe so, yeah, something like that.

00:09:02 ◼   ► - So that's almost as big as an iOS icon

00:09:04 ◼   ► or is it not even close?

00:09:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's not, it is as big as most iOS icons.

00:09:09 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by Studio Neat once again.

00:09:13 ◼   ► The guys at Studio Neat designed tools

00:09:15 ◼   ► that make the things you have just a little bit better.

00:09:17 ◼   ► They started with the GLIF, that's the G-L-I-F, the GLIF,

00:09:20 ◼   ► a tripod mount and stand for iPhones.

00:09:23 ◼   ► Well now they have a new version of it that is adjustable.

00:09:26 ◼   ► So it adjusts with case size changes of the iPhone.

00:09:30 ◼   ► So now when the new iPhones came out,

00:09:32 ◼   ► when the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus came out,

00:09:34 ◼   ► it was compatible on day one.

00:09:35 ◼   ► And it works whether or not you have a case on your phone.

00:09:38 ◼   ► They also make the Cosmonaut stylus,

00:09:40 ◼   ► which I like a lot, it's my favorite stylus for iPads.

00:09:43 ◼   ► And now they've moved on to cocktails and cocktail products.

00:09:47 ◼   ► So the Studio Neat Guys, Tom and Dan,

00:09:49 ◼   ► are on a mission to convince you

00:09:51 ◼   ► making awesome cocktails at home isn't that hard.

00:09:54 ◼   ► Cocktails are simple,

00:09:54 ◼   ► you just need a few readily available ingredients.

00:09:57 ◼   ► You have access to everything a fancy cocktail bar does,

00:10:00 ◼   ► except clear and correctly sized ice.

00:10:03 ◼   ► To fix this, Tom and Dan made the Neat Ice Kit.

00:10:06 ◼   ► Neat Ice Kit is a set of tools

00:10:07 ◼   ► for creating the right ice for your at-home cocktails.

00:10:11 ◼   ► Now, Casey, you have a Neat Ice Kit, as do I.

00:10:13 ◼   ► Can you describe how it works?

00:10:15 ◼   ► - Sure, so the Neat Ice Kit has a few components.

00:10:18 ◼   ► It is a silicone sleeve, for lack of a better word,

00:10:23 ◼   ► and then a foam insulated thing that you put around it.

00:10:28 ◼   ► - It's like a giant cozy.

00:10:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, that's a very good word.

00:10:30 ◼   ► - By the way, is it cozy or coozy?

00:10:32 ◼   ► 'Cause I always thought it was cozy.

00:10:34 ◼   ► - You're from Ohio.

00:10:35 ◼   ► Anyway, this is about the Neat Ice Kit,

00:10:37 ◼   ► And the neat ice kit is amazing.

00:10:38 ◼   ► And, um, we, I made a whole review on my, put a whole post on my blog, a review of

00:10:45 ◼   ► this thing, which I never do because I like it so darn much and what you do is

00:10:49 ◼   ► you have the silicone sleeve that you put some water in, I think it's like four

00:10:51 ◼   ► inches long, um, two inches deep and, um, two inches wide.

00:10:55 ◼   ► And so you fill it up with water.

00:10:58 ◼   ► You put that silicone sleeve inside the cozy, cozy, cozy, whatever.

00:11:02 ◼   ► And discuss the SCSI.

00:11:04 ◼   ► Right.

00:11:05 ◼   ► And you put that in the freezer, wait about a day, and what ends up happening is because of the way ice freezes,

00:11:11 ◼   ► you have a 4x2x2 block of ice that's about half really, really cloudy and half crystal clear.

00:11:18 ◼   ► And so what you do is you use the included mallet and chisel to break the block in half,

00:11:26 ◼   ► and you can use the cloudy part for things like martini shakers or something like that,

00:11:31 ◼   ► where it's not terribly important that you have clear ice.

00:11:34 ◼   ► And then you can use the clear piece for, you know,

00:11:37 ◼   ► just having a cocktail on the rocks

00:11:39 ◼   ► or in this case on the rock.

00:11:41 ◼   ► You can chisel it even further

00:11:44 ◼   ► and use it in like a Tom Collins glass, et cetera, et cetera.

00:11:47 ◼   ► This thing is amazing.

00:11:49 ◼   ► It is totally, totally a waste of time by most measures.

00:11:53 ◼   ► And oh my God, I love it so much.

00:11:55 ◼   ► I really honestly do.

00:11:56 ◼   ► And granted I'm paid to say that.

00:11:56 ◼   ► - It's a collage recommendation.

00:11:58 ◼   ► - Like I'm being paid to say I love it, but no, really.

00:12:02 ◼   ► Oh my God, it's the best.

00:12:03 ◼   ► It really, really is the best.

00:12:04 ◼   ► And if you at all care about the quality of your cocktails,

00:12:07 ◼   ► I cannot suggest enough that you pick one of these up.

00:12:09 ◼   ► It's amazing.

00:12:10 ◼   ► - Each neat ice kit includes the scuzzy mold

00:12:14 ◼   ► that we were just talking about,

00:12:15 ◼   ► a chisel that includes a bottle opener,

00:12:17 ◼   ► a club which also functions as a muddler, and a Lewis bag.

00:12:20 ◼   ► So you can use these things to create essentially

00:12:22 ◼   ► any ice type you could need for a cocktail.

00:12:24 ◼   ► You can make a big, beautiful, clear ice cube

00:12:26 ◼   ► for like an old fashioned or something.

00:12:28 ◼   ► You can make smaller ice chunks for a Tom Collins.

00:12:30 ◼   ► You can make crushed ice for a mint julep.

00:12:32 ◼   ► This makes an amazing gift for the holidays.

00:12:35 ◼   ► You can give people for wedding gifts and everything.

00:12:37 ◼   ► This is one of those things like,

00:12:39 ◼   ► I always joke every holiday season about like,

00:12:41 ◼   ► the entire category of gifts that are for other adults

00:12:46 ◼   ► that you don't really know what else to get them

00:12:50 ◼   ► and maybe they're hard to shop for

00:12:51 ◼   ► 'cause they hate everything

00:12:52 ◼   ► or they already have everything.

00:12:54 ◼   ► This category of gifts is usually full of a bunch of garbage

00:12:57 ◼   ► There's a very small number of things

00:12:59 ◼   ► that I would recommend in this category

00:13:00 ◼   ► and this is one of them.

00:13:02 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to Studio Neat and the Neat Ice Kit

00:13:05 ◼   ► for sponsoring our show.

00:13:06 ◼   ► Once again, go to studioneat.com and use code ATP

00:13:11 ◼   ► to get 10% off anything in the store.

00:13:13 ◼   ► Once again, Studio Neat, N-E-A-T, studioneat.com,

00:13:17 ◼   ► use code ATP for 10% off.

00:13:19 ◼   ► Check out the Neat Ice Kit.

00:13:20 ◼   ► I also very highly recommend the Glyph and the Cosmonaut.

00:13:24 ◼   ► - Okay, so we also got some feedback from JP Toto,

00:13:29 ◼   ► who corrected, I think mostly me more than anyone else,

00:13:33 ◼   ► about IIS or the Microsoft web server

00:13:37 ◼   ► on anything other than Windows.

00:13:39 ◼   ► And so he or she said,

00:13:41 ◼   ► "Regarding the IIS on Linux.net business,

00:13:44 ◼   ► it won't actually be IIS running on Linux or the Mac.

00:13:48 ◼   ► It is a new web server called Kestrel built on libuv

00:13:51 ◼   ► and it's a lot like the Node web server.

00:13:53 ◼   ► I don't know the exact threading model,

00:13:54 ◼   ► but you can front end it within nginx, nginx,

00:13:57 ◼   ► how do you pronounce that, nginx?

00:13:59 ◼   ► - Engine X you got it.

00:14:00 ◼   ► - Okay, thank you.

00:14:00 ◼   ► Or something else.

00:14:02 ◼   ► So don't worry, nobody will be running big fat IES

00:14:04 ◼   ► on any Linux machines anytime soon.

00:14:06 ◼   ► So that makes a lot more sense

00:14:08 ◼   ► than what I think I said on the last episode.

00:14:11 ◼   ► So I appreciate the followup from JP Toto.

00:14:14 ◼   ► Moving on, can you manufacture that thing

00:14:19 ◼   ► like Apple does, John?

00:14:21 ◼   ► - You can't.

00:14:22 ◼   ► - It's kind of insulting.

00:14:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, so this is a story,

00:14:25 ◼   ► we talked a lot about this,

00:14:26 ◼   ► about how Apple manufactures things.

00:14:30 ◼   ► Last show we talked about how Apple deciding

00:14:33 ◼   ► that it was going to make essentially its entire product

00:14:35 ◼   ► line out of big blocks of aluminum

00:14:37 ◼   ► that precision machines into certain shapes

00:14:40 ◼   ► affected the rest of the industry

00:14:41 ◼   ► and helped the rest of the industry have the expertise

00:14:45 ◼   ► and have the machinery and the supplies

00:14:47 ◼   ► out there to do this for their products as well,

00:14:49 ◼   ► like that Nokia Mac mini clone thing.

00:14:52 ◼   ► And there was a whole article on Medium--

00:14:54 ◼   ► I forgot to copy down the author's name here.

00:14:56 ◼   ► 20 you can look it up, about how you can't manufacture like Apple does.

00:14:59 ◼   ► And it's short, there's just a couple of throwaway one-liner anecdotes about things that Apple

00:15:05 ◼   ► has done.

00:15:06 ◼   ► Like they bought 10,000 CNC milling machines to make MacBook bodies instead of just a couple

00:15:11 ◼   ► of them.

00:15:12 ◼   ► To laser drill those holes that let you see the LED that shines through the aluminum,

00:15:16 ◼   ► like you can't see the holes when the light is off, when the light is on it magically

00:15:18 ◼   ► shines through.

00:15:20 ◼   ► There was only one company that made the drills that could make those little holes, so it

00:15:26 ◼   ► bought the company and took all of its existing imagery to do it and you know

00:15:29 ◼   ► they talk about manufacturing a battery to fit in some tiny space if no one

00:15:32 ◼   ► sells you a battery that fits in there and no one's willing to make you one

00:15:35 ◼   ► you just make one yourself from scratch that's usually not an option for most

00:15:38 ◼   ► people a lot of it just has to go with you know it's good to be the king it's

00:15:41 ◼   ► good to be a big gigantic company with tons of money and it also means that

00:15:46 ◼   ► other companies that don't make products that look as nice as apples or like try

00:15:53 ◼   ► - Try to imitate Apple's products.

00:15:55 ◼   ► Like they'll use aluminum, they'll use glass,

00:15:57 ◼   ► they'll use laser cut holes and everything like that.

00:16:00 ◼   ► If you're going to do exactly the same thing as Apple,

00:16:02 ◼   ► it may be very difficult for you to make something as good

00:16:05 ◼   ► or at a similar price or both.

00:16:07 ◼   ► Your best bet I would imagine is to make something

00:16:10 ◼   ► that feels, if you wanna make something

00:16:12 ◼   ► that's equally high quality,

00:16:13 ◼   ► if you're like, why doesn't everything feel

00:16:14 ◼   ► like it's made like an Apple product?

00:16:16 ◼   ► You can make something high quality,

00:16:19 ◼   ► you just might have to make it out of a material

00:16:22 ◼   ► that feels high quality but is either a more established process or you know it costs less

00:16:27 ◼   ► money or it doesn't require any special machinery.

00:16:29 ◼   ► It can still feel expensive and high quality.

00:16:32 ◼   ► You don't have to chase Apple exactly.

00:16:33 ◼   ► If you do chase Apple exactly you're going to have a very hard time doing exactly what

00:16:37 ◼   ► they do for the same cost that they do because they just have massive economies of scales

00:16:41 ◼   ► and a huge investment.

00:16:42 ◼   ► And probably people on their payroll or people who are locked into exclusive contracts that

00:16:47 ◼   ► are the best at doing whatever it is they do.

00:16:50 ◼   ► So you can take a look at that in the show notes.

00:16:52 ◼   ► I think I pretty much just summarized the entire article.

00:16:55 ◼   ► John, why don't you tell us about how awesome

00:16:58 ◼   ► it is to have an empty row on the bottom of your iPhone home

00:17:01 ◼   ► screen?

00:17:02 ◼   ► I told you about these people last week

00:17:03 ◼   ► when we were talking about leaving the empty row

00:17:05 ◼   ► and all that stuff like that.

00:17:06 ◼   ► And I said, some people don't have any rows.

00:17:08 ◼   ► And they just put everything in a set of folders.

00:17:10 ◼   ► And one of those people sent us a screenshot.

00:17:12 ◼   ► We'll put a link to their tweet in the show notes.

00:17:14 ◼   ► It just has four folders in the doc.

00:17:17 ◼   ► And each of the four folders has what looks like a color-coded

00:17:19 ◼   ► set of nine icons or there could be more,

00:17:21 ◼   ► you can't tell how many pages.

00:17:23 ◼   ► And so that's it, their screen is just blank.

00:17:26 ◼   ► It's just a big picture of the sun on the top.

00:17:28 ◼   ► And then, you know, so different strokes for different folks.

00:17:32 ◼   ► I mean, this could just be like

00:17:33 ◼   ► an artistic stunt type of thing.

00:17:35 ◼   ► But like I said, if you want everything to be two taps away

00:17:37 ◼   ► all the time, at least go for it.

00:17:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, when you said that some people did this.

00:17:43 ◼   ► - You didn't believe me.

00:17:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, I thought, yeah, maybe in theory,

00:17:46 ◼   ► somebody might be able to do this,

00:17:48 ◼   ► but there has to be nobody out there

00:17:50 ◼   ► who actually would make everything harder

00:17:53 ◼   ► to use on their phone.

00:17:54 ◼   ► - I mean, this could be a stump.

00:17:55 ◼   ► It's from the color coding.

00:17:56 ◼   ► It's like, you know, maybe this is just like a silly thing.

00:17:58 ◼   ► They just set up this way to take a screenshot,

00:18:00 ◼   ► but I've seen people in real life

00:18:01 ◼   ► who don't just have the dock.

00:18:02 ◼   ► Like what they will have is a row of folders at the top,

00:18:05 ◼   ► and the dock will have like, you know,

00:18:06 ◼   ► phone and mail and safari or whatever, you know,

00:18:09 ◼   ► like the dock will just have single icons,

00:18:11 ◼   ► but then they'll just have four icons

00:18:12 ◼   ► at the top of page one, all of which are folders.

00:18:16 ◼   ► - Whatever, I don't know.

00:18:17 ◼   ► This is not at all what my home screen looks like,

00:18:19 ◼   ► but I'll go with it.

00:18:20 ◼   ► I mean, this is why you have the ability

00:18:23 ◼   ► to customize it, I suppose,

00:18:24 ◼   ► so everyone can be their own special snowflake.

00:18:27 ◼   ► Tell me about Instagram completionist, Jon.

00:18:29 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, this was a complaint email from Jonathan,

00:18:33 ◼   ► another person suffering from my pain.

00:18:34 ◼   ► I put the whole thing in there

00:18:35 ◼   ► 'cause I thought it was a nice summary.

00:18:36 ◼   ► - Suffering.

00:18:37 ◼   ► - It echoes my complaints.

00:18:39 ◼   ► Jonathan says, "I try hard not to be

00:18:42 ◼   ► an Instagram completionist, that is.

00:18:44 ◼   ► Instagram's behavior is maddening.

00:18:45 ◼   ► Not only does it forget where you are,

00:18:47 ◼   ► but as soon as a new image is posted,

00:18:48 ◼   ► you are returned to the top of your feed to see it.

00:18:50 ◼   ► I've never actually had this happen,

00:18:51 ◼   ► like where you're sitting there paging through images

00:18:53 ◼   ► and a new image appears,

00:18:54 ◼   ► 'cause I don't follow enough people, I guess,

00:18:55 ◼   ► but if it scrolled me up to the top,

00:18:56 ◼   ► that would drive me mad as well.

00:18:58 ◼   ► You're also returned to the top of your feed

00:18:59 ◼   ► if you switch away from the app.

00:19:01 ◼   ► Whereas the feed has a fixed length,

00:19:02 ◼   ► if you get to the end of the feed,

00:19:03 ◼   ► you might be missing photos older

00:19:04 ◼   ► than the oldest one visible.

00:19:06 ◼   ► This leads me to the crazy behavior

00:19:07 ◼   ► of checking my feed twice a day so I don't miss anything.

00:19:09 ◼   ► This is probably exactly what Instagram wants.

00:19:11 ◼   ► I hate them.

00:19:12 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:19:15 ◼   ► You know, I have an Instagram completionist as well, and I don't know how many people

00:19:20 ◼   ► I follow.

00:19:21 ◼   ► I'll run my mouth for a second while I look, but I don't really have this kind of problem.

00:19:26 ◼   ► I agree with both you and Jonathan that it is maddening the way their app works for completionists,

00:19:33 ◼   ► but I don't run into these same kinds of problems that apparently you guys do.

00:19:36 ◼   ► Like I've never seen it jump to the top while I was browsing Instagram.

00:19:42 ◼   ► I don't think it even does that.

00:19:44 ◼   ► I don't follow I don't follow enough people to have it do that

00:19:46 ◼   ► But just merely the thing of just putting you at the top and you have to scroll back to find with the last picture you saw

00:19:50 ◼   ► Was and like Twitter does it intentionally like Twitter's thing is you're not supposed to care

00:19:54 ◼   ► You're not supposed to be Asian police and you're supposed to be just like what's happening now. What's in the moment?

00:19:57 ◼   ► It's like getting on a CB channel, you know in the 70s or whatever like hey

00:20:00 ◼   ► Ham radio or whatever keep going back in time everyone go on the Telegraph. Anyway, and what's going on?

00:20:06 ◼   ► What's going on now? You're not supposed to don't worry about the past the past of the past

00:20:10 ◼   ► what's going on now, which I think is not a great... I don't like that philosophy and

00:20:16 ◼   ► I certainly don't use Twitter that way. But anyway, that's what they're going for. Is

00:20:20 ◼   ► Instagram going for the same thing? Don't worry about what your people posted yesterday.

00:20:24 ◼   ► Only worry about the pictures that are happening today. I would wonder, what is their ideal

00:20:29 ◼   ► volume? How many photos come from people that you follow per day? Is it one? Is it seven?

00:20:35 ◼   ► Is it a hundred? Is it seven thousand? I don't know what their number is, but obviously my

00:20:39 ◼   ► My number is way below it.

00:20:40 ◼   ► And if they think it's very high,

00:20:42 ◼   ► if they think, like, I don't know, you're a teenager,

00:20:45 ◼   ► and all your friends are snapping

00:20:46 ◼   ► 17 Instagram pictures a day, and you follow 50 people,

00:20:49 ◼   ► and it's just every day,

00:20:50 ◼   ► just hundreds and hundreds of pictures,

00:20:52 ◼   ► of course you're not gonna be a completionist.

00:20:53 ◼   ► You just wanna say, hey, what are people doing now?

00:20:55 ◼   ► Maybe you'll scroll back for one or two pictures,

00:20:57 ◼   ► but that's not how I use Instagram.

00:21:00 ◼   ► I'm not an experienced Instagram user,

00:21:02 ◼   ► so I can't say that's not what Instagram is

00:21:04 ◼   ► or what it started out as.

00:21:05 ◼   ► And certainly, Twitter did not really start out

00:21:08 ◼   ► as a completionist medium either, but I don't know.

00:21:11 ◼   ► I would love to ask if there is some person

00:21:14 ◼   ► who has a vision for both Instagram and Twitter,

00:21:16 ◼   ► why is it that the vision of don't worry about it

00:21:18 ◼   ► happened in the past?

00:21:19 ◼   ► What is appealing about that?

00:21:20 ◼   ► Why is that the goal?

00:21:21 ◼   ► I'm not saying it's a bad goal,

00:21:22 ◼   ► but it seems weird to me if Instagram is also like this

00:21:26 ◼   ► and Twitter is also like this.

00:21:27 ◼   ► Is there no room for anything where you care about,

00:21:31 ◼   ► especially things where you choose who you're gonna follow.

00:21:33 ◼   ► I guess you're just not supposed to care about everything

00:21:35 ◼   ► those people ever write.

00:21:36 ◼   ► I mean, Facebook, forget it.

00:21:37 ◼   ► Facebook is gone.

00:21:38 ◼   ► sees everything of anything anymore. It's all just...

00:21:41 ◼   ► Well, but there it's a monetization strategy. That's very different.

00:21:45 ◼   ► I know, but it's also to hold down noise, and they tied seeing things with friending

00:21:50 ◼   ► so you could silence people so they would still be your friends so you didn't hurt

00:21:53 ◼   ► their feelings but you'd never see any other stuff, and you could see things by friends

00:21:56 ◼   ► of friends, and it's... and you're right, the monetization strategy is in there too.

00:22:00 ◼   ► The mental model long ago on Facebook I feel like broke down to the point where regular

00:22:04 ◼   ► people don't understand the permutations, and they kept changing the rules anyway, so

00:22:08 ◼   ► and now it's just forget it.

00:22:08 ◼   ► But Twitter and Instagram are both so simple.

00:22:11 ◼   ► Vertical timeline, chronologically ordered

00:22:15 ◼   ► with a few variations thrown in, but not many,

00:22:18 ◼   ► that haven't changed that much.

00:22:20 ◼   ► And yet they also want you to just apparently be like,

00:22:22 ◼   ► in the moment, don't worry about what happened

00:22:23 ◼   ► five seconds ago.

00:22:25 ◼   ► Those pictures are dead to you, don't look back.

00:22:27 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:22:28 ◼   ► - Just real time follow up, by the way,

00:22:29 ◼   ► I follow about 90 people on Instagram.

00:22:32 ◼   ► And I would say based on no fact checking whatsoever,

00:22:35 ◼   ► just gut feeling,

00:22:36 ◼   ► I think I see between 10 and 20 pictures in a given day,

00:22:40 ◼   ► new photos in a given day.

00:22:42 ◼   ► So I don't see that many,

00:22:45 ◼   ► yet even in that small quantity,

00:22:47 ◼   ► this stuff all drives me crazy.

00:22:50 ◼   ► - I should also point out as a responsible developer,

00:22:52 ◼   ► the end skeptic,

00:22:53 ◼   ► that the reason why Instagram puts you up to the top

00:22:57 ◼   ► whenever you launch the app, whenever there's new stuff,

00:23:00 ◼   ► is probably at least,

00:23:01 ◼   ► it probably at least started out that way

00:23:03 ◼   ► because that's easier.

00:23:05 ◼   ► Like it's just a lot easier to say

00:23:07 ◼   ► every time you launch the app, you just load the feed,

00:23:08 ◼   ► whatever is the current feed, you load that up to X items

00:23:11 ◼   ► and you show that, period.

00:23:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, well that works up until well before

00:23:15 ◼   ► your purchase for a billion dollars.

00:23:17 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:23:18 ◼   ► That's like version one, minimum viable product,

00:23:20 ◼   ► don't worry about it, blah, blah, blah.

00:23:22 ◼   ► But then at some point you get around to that.

00:23:24 ◼   ► Some point in the multiple years before you're acquired

00:23:26 ◼   ► for a billion dollars, you get around to that,

00:23:27 ◼   ► if it's something that you want.

00:23:28 ◼   ► - Well that's not a given at all though,

00:23:30 ◼   ► because there's a lot of apps out there

00:23:33 ◼   ► from very large companies where the apps just suck

00:23:36 ◼   ► and where things just are never fixed.

00:23:37 ◼   ► For example, the Mac App Store.

00:23:41 ◼   ► - Well, Apple doesn't care about the Mac App Store.

00:23:43 ◼   ► - Right, how much does Instagram care about

00:23:45 ◼   ► the quality of their app for completionists?

00:23:48 ◼   ► - But like, it's the quality, their app is the main thing.

00:23:52 ◼   ► Like that is Instagram.

00:23:53 ◼   ► They don't even want you to use the website.

00:23:54 ◼   ► The website is like the Instagram website used to be.

00:23:56 ◼   ► It was just like, yeah, yeah,

00:23:57 ◼   ► and we have a website, whatever.

00:23:58 ◼   ► It's like the app is Instagram.

00:23:59 ◼   ► That's what was purchased for a billion dollars.

00:24:01 ◼   ► If they're not adding this feature,

00:24:02 ◼   ► it's because they don't feel like it's part of the product

00:24:04 ◼   ► they want to make.

00:24:05 ◼   ► And just like Twitter,

00:24:06 ◼   ► does not want you to be a completionist.

00:24:09 ◼   ► They don't want you to look back.

00:24:11 ◼   ► They don't want you to feel like you have to catch up.

00:24:13 ◼   ► They want it to be more kind of,

00:24:15 ◼   ► you just dip in to the stream,

00:24:16 ◼   ► look at it and dip and come back out.

00:24:18 ◼   ► But Instagram is like, I don't know,

00:24:22 ◼   ► for some reason, especially pictures,

00:24:24 ◼   ► it just seems like they're so much easier

00:24:26 ◼   ► to look at and skim and you'd be more likely

00:24:28 ◼   ► to be annoyed if you missed one.

00:24:29 ◼   ► Like you missed someone's tweet

00:24:30 ◼   ► about what they had for breakfast, who cares?

00:24:31 ◼   ► But if someone posted a baby picture and you missed it,

00:24:35 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:24:35 ◼   ► It's not the same as photo stream.

00:24:36 ◼   ► It's not the same as grandparents missing

00:24:38 ◼   ► pictures of their grandkids.

00:24:39 ◼   ► It is just kind of like, here's a bunch of photos

00:24:41 ◼   ► from people I know and follow.

00:24:42 ◼   ► But I guess I'm just not--

00:24:44 ◼   ► there's very few things that I'm interested in reading

00:24:48 ◼   ► or following or doing stuff with where I'm just going to dip

00:24:52 ◼   ► my toe in and be like, oh, let's see what's going on.

00:24:54 ◼   ► It's like not watching TV series.

00:24:55 ◼   ► Like, oh, I just turn on the TV and whatever's on.

00:24:57 ◼   ► I just watch a middle episode of some show

00:24:59 ◼   ► that I haven't watched anything about,

00:25:00 ◼   ► and then I just forget about it.

00:25:01 ◼   ► And the next day, if some other show was on, I watched.

00:25:03 ◼   ► Never watching whole seasons,

00:25:05 ◼   ► never watching shows in sequence,

00:25:06 ◼   ► just whatever's going on right now.

00:25:08 ◼   ► That does not appeal to me.

00:25:09 ◼   ► And I can't think of any media that appeals to me.

00:25:12 ◼   ► - What does appeal to me is our second sponsor of the week.

00:25:15 ◼   ► It's Hover.

00:25:17 ◼   ► Hover is a domain registrar that is awesome.

00:25:20 ◼   ► Let's say you have a great idea for a name, an app,

00:25:24 ◼   ► a joke website, a blog, whatever the case may be,

00:25:27 ◼   ► you need a domain name for that.

00:25:29 ◼   ► You want something catchy and memorable

00:25:30 ◼   ► to represent your idea.

00:25:32 ◼   ► Hover gives you exactly what you need to get the job done.

00:25:36 ◼   ► You'll find the perfect domain for your idea

00:25:37 ◼   ► so you can get started actually working on it

00:25:39 ◼   ► and move on to the next big thing on your to-do list.

00:25:42 ◼   ► Hover gives you easy to use powerful tools

00:25:44 ◼   ► to manage your domains so that anybody can do it.

00:25:47 ◼   ► A beginner, advanced, it covers everything.

00:25:50 ◼   ► All you gotta do is search for a few keywords.

00:25:52 ◼   ► Hover has one of those auto suggest things

00:25:54 ◼   ► where if your name's not available,

00:25:56 ◼   ► they can use linguistic tricks to show you alternatives

00:25:59 ◼   ► that are available that you might be interested in.

00:26:01 ◼   ► And in my experience,

00:26:02 ◼   ► Hover's version of this is the best one I've ever seen,

00:26:04 ◼   ► for sure.

00:26:06 ◼   ► They have a very clean and simple website

00:26:08 ◼   ► from beginning to end, from the search

00:26:10 ◼   ► to the management of the domains after you buy them.

00:26:12 ◼   ► So you don't have to mess around

00:26:13 ◼   ► with weird complex interfaces.

00:26:14 ◼   ► And believe me, if you've ever registered domains,

00:26:17 ◼   ► you have probably seen your fair share

00:26:19 ◼   ► of terrible web interfaces.

00:26:21 ◼   ► Especially if you've ever done things like managing DNS

00:26:23 ◼   ► and everything else that you have to do

00:26:24 ◼   ► when you own domains.

00:26:25 ◼   ► And wow, there's a lot of terrible registrars out there

00:26:28 ◼   ► with terrible websites.

00:26:29 ◼   ► Happy to say Hover is not one of them.

00:26:31 ◼   ► Their website is easy to use,

00:26:32 ◼   ► nicely designed and respectful of you.

00:26:34 ◼   ► You also know that other registrars,

00:26:37 ◼   ► generally using them is unpleasant at best.

00:26:40 ◼   ► There's usually a lot of weird, tricky upsells

00:26:44 ◼   ► and just kind of like weird ads and sleazy scams

00:26:48 ◼   ► trying to get more money from you

00:26:50 ◼   ► and Hover doesn't do any of that stuff.

00:26:51 ◼   ► They respect you.

00:26:52 ◼   ► They do things the way that you wish everybody did things.

00:26:56 ◼   ► They also have this great service,

00:26:57 ◼   ► Valet Transfer Service,

00:26:59 ◼   ► where if you wanna give them your login

00:27:01 ◼   ► to your old registrar, they will, if you want them to,

00:27:04 ◼   ► log into it and move over all of your names properly

00:27:07 ◼   ► to Hover, or whatever names you want.

00:27:10 ◼   ► They're not gonna move things that you don't want them to.

00:27:12 ◼   ► So you can make sure that all your DNS settings

00:27:15 ◼   ► come over correctly, all your mail settings,

00:27:17 ◼   ► all the crazy stuff, all your little A records.

00:27:20 ◼   ► Bring all those over properly without missing anything

00:27:22 ◼   ► 'cause you don't wanna mess that up.

00:27:23 ◼   ► They also have amazing customer support.

00:27:26 ◼   ► You can call them on the phone and a human being

00:27:28 ◼   ► picks up the phone immediately and is able to help you.

00:27:33 ◼   ► It's amazing.

00:27:34 ◼   ► It sounds so basic, but if you've ever called

00:27:36 ◼   ► customer service for anything ever,

00:27:39 ◼   ► you'll realize how incredibly rare that is

00:27:40 ◼   ► and how valuable that is.

00:27:42 ◼   ► Go to hover.com, and that's H-O-V-E-R

00:27:46 ◼   ► for our British listeners who don't understand

00:27:47 ◼   ► a word I'm saying.

00:27:48 ◼   ► Go to hover.com and use offer code FISHRULES for 10% off.

00:27:53 ◼   ► - Really?

00:27:54 ◼   ► That is Phish spelled the correct way

00:27:56 ◼   ► with a P-H at the beginning instead of an F.

00:27:59 ◼   ► So P-H-I-S-H rules, Phish rules,

00:28:03 ◼   ► because of course they do.

00:28:04 ◼   ► Thank you very much to Hover

00:28:06 ◼   ► for sponsoring our show once again.

00:28:09 ◼   ► - I feel compelled to note

00:28:10 ◼   ► that despite that ridiculous coupon code,

00:28:12 ◼   ► Hover really is fantastic.

00:28:13 ◼   ► So don't use that coupon code

00:28:16 ◼   ► or don't hold that coupon code against them.

00:28:18 ◼   ► They really are amazing.

00:28:19 ◼   ► - Hey, if you want 10% off this week,

00:28:21 ◼   ► you have to use that code.

00:28:22 ◼   ► You have to actually type that.

00:28:24 ◼   ► You're welcome, everybody.

00:28:25 ◼   ► - Sigh.

00:28:26 ◼   ► Anyway, John, I wanted to know what you have

00:28:31 ◼   ► on your iPhone's home screen.

00:28:35 ◼   ► And this is in part because Betaworks

00:28:38 ◼   ► has released an app called, what is it, Home Screen?

00:28:41 ◼   ► Is that the name of the app?

00:28:42 ◼   ► - It's Pound Home Screen.

00:28:44 ◼   ► - Ah, my bad, it's Pound Home Screen.

00:28:45 ◼   ► So, in any case, this has been flying around on Twitter

00:28:49 ◼   ► where everyone is posting their home screens

00:28:51 ◼   ► And I was curious, John, what do you have on your home screen of your iPhone?

00:28:57 ◼   ► I thought we talked about this last week.

00:28:59 ◼   ► I'll get to it in a moment.

00:29:01 ◼   ► But first I want to talk about this application, which I did download because

00:29:04 ◼   ► it was like, you know, everyone was downloading it and saying, oh, you know,

00:29:07 ◼   ► this home screen thing, or so I downloaded the home screen app.

00:29:09 ◼   ► I saw Marco complain that he couldn't find it for the search and then the app

00:29:13 ◼   ► store, because he searched for the exact app name and didn't come up with it, which

00:29:15 ◼   ► is great. Anyway, I downloaded the app and it wants you to take a screenshot of your

00:29:20 ◼   ► home screen, which I did, and it wants you to come back to the app and then it does something

00:29:24 ◼   ► and then it says, "Great, period.

00:29:26 ◼   ► Your screenshot is shared, period."

00:29:30 ◼   ► So I feel like I have now used this app for its intended purpose.

00:29:32 ◼   ► I have taken a screenshot of my home screen.

00:29:35 ◼   ► I have launched the app.

00:29:36 ◼   ► It gave me a confirmation message that says my screenshot is shared.

00:29:39 ◼   ► What it shows me on the screen of the app is a tiny picture of my home screen.

00:29:43 ◼   ► I'm like, "Yep, that's my home screen.

00:29:44 ◼   ► It is now shared."

00:29:45 ◼   ► I have no idea what to do from here.

00:29:47 ◼   ► It did put up a little window that said, "Would you tweet about this?"

00:29:49 ◼   ► no, I would not like to tweet about it, and I didn't.

00:29:52 ◼   ► And that's it, and now people are like,

00:29:53 ◼   ► "Hey, why isn't your home screen on there?"

00:29:55 ◼   ► Like, well, I shared it, can people not find my home screen

00:29:58 ◼   ► unless I tweet about it?

00:29:58 ◼   ► I don't wanna tweet about it.

00:30:00 ◼   ► I don't understand this application.

00:30:02 ◼   ► - All right. - Do you understand it?

00:30:03 ◼   ► Have you guys shared your home screen?

00:30:05 ◼   ► How are other people able to see my home screen?

00:30:08 ◼   ► - So by default, it, by the way, I didn't build this app.

00:30:12 ◼   ► - Yes, no, it's not Marco's app,

00:30:13 ◼   ► although I have been complaining to him directly.

00:30:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, so when I, so Betaworks, it's Betaworks' app,

00:30:18 ◼   ► and yes, I sold its paper to Betaworks,

00:30:19 ◼   ► and I know them, I don't work there.

00:30:22 ◼   ► And when I tweeted my screenshot,

00:30:24 ◼   ► so by default, it just shares it onto their website,

00:30:28 ◼   ► onto the home screen, I think it's homescreen.

00:30:31 ◼   ► - .is, right, but how can other people see it?

00:30:34 ◼   ► - So you can go there and there's a URL,

00:30:36 ◼   ► if you open up the tweet sheet,

00:30:37 ◼   ► you don't have to actually post the tweet,

00:30:39 ◼   ► it'll give you the URL, there is a public permalink

00:30:42 ◼   ► on that domain where you can view it.

00:30:44 ◼   ► The point of this is to tweet it though,

00:30:47 ◼   ► And so, anyway, to clarify, when I tweeted it,

00:30:51 ◼   ► I said in brackets, shameless app self-promotion.

00:30:55 ◼   ► And what I was saying was I was basically voting

00:30:59 ◼   ► for Overcast and Instapaper

00:31:01 ◼   ► because they were on my home screen.

00:31:03 ◼   ► And one of the cool things about this site

00:31:05 ◼   ► is that you can go to homescreen.is, is that it?

00:31:09 ◼   ► I already forgot the domain.

00:31:10 ◼   ► - That's what it says, but it's not loading for me.

00:31:12 ◼   ► - Anyway, you can go to the site and it'll show you,

00:31:16 ◼   ► It has like a, it keeps a tally of,

00:31:18 ◼   ► 'cause what it does is it looks at the picture

00:31:21 ◼   ► of your home screen and then it actually uses

00:31:24 ◼   ► image recognition to recognize with pretty good accuracy

00:31:28 ◼   ► what apps those actually are.

00:31:30 ◼   ► And then it links to them, you can get to their iTunes pages

00:31:33 ◼   ► and then it keeps a tally of which apps are most popular.

00:31:36 ◼   ► So I was voting for my apps that are on my home screen

00:31:40 ◼   ► and that's why I said shameless app sale promotion,

00:31:43 ◼   ► not that I made the home screen app itself.

00:31:45 ◼   ► Anyway, why other people would wanna post it,

00:31:47 ◼   ► I don't know, it's up to them.

00:31:48 ◼   ► I mean, who knows?

00:31:50 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:31:51 ◼   ► A lot of people like to know that.

00:31:53 ◼   ► A lot of people like to share their home screens.

00:31:54 ◼   ► A lot of people ask us or other people they know on Twitter,

00:31:59 ◼   ► what is your home screen?

00:32:01 ◼   ► There used to be a whole site dedicated to it by somebody,

00:32:03 ◼   ► I forget who, I think it was one of our

00:32:05 ◼   ► Apple blogger friends, right?

00:32:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, a lot of people do that.

00:32:08 ◼   ► So in the app, there is a share button,

00:32:09 ◼   ► and it says tweet, which I don't wanna do.

00:32:11 ◼   ► Open in Safari, I suppose that'll take me to the URL,

00:32:14 ◼   ► Confirm app detection where you can go and confirm that it got your you know, did the image recognition

00:32:18 ◼   ► I did all that but other people can't find my homes. People were asking me when are you going to share your home screen?

00:32:23 ◼   ► I feel like I did I feel like it should be easier for people to find my home screen

00:32:27 ◼   ► Not that they care like my screen my home screen is a mess

00:32:30 ◼   ► So if you want to know what's actually on it, like I said, I have to fill in a row of icons before

00:32:33 ◼   ► I had to rearrange things to be in my thumb. I'm not really happy with my home screen

00:32:37 ◼   ► This is it's gonna change but it's just the usual stuff. Like I don't know there's anything exciting on here

00:32:43 ◼   ► I've got the main apps that I use every day which is overcast Twitter epic

00:32:48 ◼   ► You know Safari Gmail app which I use for my email

00:32:53 ◼   ► I've got you know, I'm on the dock. I've got phone photos video music

00:32:58 ◼   ► I've got Dropbox on near the App Store messages FaceTime

00:33:02 ◼   ► Google Maps and Apple Maps contacts like it just starts to tail off after that

00:33:07 ◼   ► I've got the WWDC app and like in a spot that has always been on my front screen

00:33:11 ◼   ► I've been doing that for the past few years just for the hell of it. Wait, really? Why is that there?

00:33:16 ◼   ► Is it to watch the videos? No, I don't use it

00:33:18 ◼   ► But like every year I replace it with the new version of the app like rather than having to rearrange everything

00:33:22 ◼   ► It is essentially a placeholder for itself

00:33:24 ◼   ► So so you have an app on your home screen that by definition you don't use for 51 weeks out of every year

00:33:32 ◼   ► Well, I use it on and off but like there's tons of apps in here that I don't use all the time

00:33:35 ◼   ► Like that's like a prime spot. That's like right right in thumb scanning range - well, I don't I don't have it

00:33:40 ◼   ► I have it far away.

00:33:42 ◼   ► I have it in a bad spot, right?

00:33:44 ◼   ► - It's in the middle row.

00:33:45 ◼   ► - It's far away from my thumb.

00:33:46 ◼   ► It's like I have to reach anything on that edge.

00:33:49 ◼   ► I suppose I could swap it with settings or whatever.

00:33:51 ◼   ► Like a lot of my problem has to do with muscle memory

00:33:53 ◼   ► for where things used to be

00:33:54 ◼   ► when I could reach the whole screen with my thumb.

00:33:56 ◼   ► I still keep reaching for upper left for Safari,

00:33:59 ◼   ► but it's not there anymore because it's too damn far away,

00:34:00 ◼   ► but I still reach past where it is.

00:34:02 ◼   ► So I have to adjust things.

00:34:04 ◼   ► And the Google Authenticator, I don't use that very often,

00:34:06 ◼   ► but I do want it on my home screen.

00:34:08 ◼   ► So there's just not enough apps

00:34:09 ◼   ► that I use frequently enough to be deserving

00:34:11 ◼   ► to be on the home screen.

00:34:12 ◼   ► So then it's like, maybe I should move these off

00:34:13 ◼   ► to find icons that look nicer.

00:34:15 ◼   ► 'Cause I'm really not happy with the way this thing looks.

00:34:17 ◼   ► I really don't like the Instagram icon.

00:34:18 ◼   ► It still looks like iOS 6

00:34:20 ◼   ► and it's kind of mucking up my home screen.

00:34:22 ◼   ► - This is the most baffling home screen.

00:34:24 ◼   ► - It's not, this home screen is a mess.

00:34:26 ◼   ► Like this is not the way I want it.

00:34:27 ◼   ► Very few things.

00:34:28 ◼   ► The only things that I'm sure about more or less

00:34:30 ◼   ► are Twitter, I think, and Overcast,

00:34:31 ◼   ► which are really the main two apps I use every day.

00:34:33 ◼   ► Gmail and Safari used to be in totally different places

00:34:37 ◼   ► and I keep reaching for their old positions

00:34:38 ◼   ► and messages is kind of okay.

00:34:41 ◼   ► I didn't use it as much before I had an iPhone.

00:34:43 ◼   ► - I mean, Repost, do you use app.net a lot?

00:34:45 ◼   ► - I do, still check it.

00:34:47 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:34:48 ◼   ► - And the iTunes store, are you buying new albums a lot?

00:34:52 ◼   ► That's on your home screen?

00:34:53 ◼   ► - I want the App Store on the main page

00:34:55 ◼   ► 'cause I do manual updates.

00:34:56 ◼   ► - App Store, yes, but the purple iTunes store.

00:34:59 ◼   ► - iTunes store, I'm like, it starts to tail off.

00:35:02 ◼   ► It's like, what else should I have in there?

00:35:04 ◼   ► So I kind of think like the official Apple stuff, you know?

00:35:07 ◼   ► like the main, because I don't use a lot of these apps a lot

00:35:11 ◼   ► so I just, I don't know, I have to sort it out.

00:35:13 ◼   ► - This is worse than the camera sound effect.

00:35:16 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:35:16 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, I've just moved to a new device,

00:35:18 ◼   ► my iPod touch home screen I was very happy with,

00:35:20 ◼   ► but here I'm kind of lost until I figure it out

00:35:23 ◼   ► and the subsequent screens are even worse,

00:35:25 ◼   ► it's just kind of a mess.

00:35:26 ◼   ► - You only get one more row, like you can't blame that.

00:35:29 ◼   ► - No, it's the row and the sizing.

00:35:31 ◼   ► The sizing threw off all my good positions of everything,

00:35:34 ◼   ► it's like, well now that is a bad position,

00:35:36 ◼   ► I would never put like calendar on the upper left.

00:35:38 ◼   ► I don't use it at all.

00:35:39 ◼   ► That used to be where Safari is.

00:35:41 ◼   ► It's impossible to reach my thumb.

00:35:42 ◼   ► So I gotta, you know, I have to put something

00:35:45 ◼   ► that I basically don't launch there.

00:35:46 ◼   ► And why is calendar on the front page?

00:35:48 ◼   ► I guess so I can see the date, I guess,

00:35:49 ◼   ► 'cause it's the official calendar.

00:35:50 ◼   ► I don't use Apple's calendar, I use Google Calendar.

00:35:53 ◼   ► - See, the thing that drives me nuts about your home screen,

00:35:55 ◼   ► which R. Jonesy pointed out to me,

00:35:58 ◼   ► is you made the rookie iPhone user mistake

00:36:00 ◼   ► of having contacts and phone on the same screen,

00:36:03 ◼   ► because you can do, to the best of my knowledge anyway,

00:36:06 ◼   ► you can do everything in contacts,

00:36:09 ◼   ► everything you can do in contacts,

00:36:10 ◼   ► you can do in the phone apps.

00:36:11 ◼   ► So having both is just completely wasteful and redundant.

00:36:14 ◼   ► - But I don't use either one of those apps.

00:36:16 ◼   ► I don't use the phone, I use contacts.

00:36:18 ◼   ► - That's the thing, like Mac people make fun

00:36:20 ◼   ► of Windows people for maximizing all their windows.

00:36:23 ◼   ► I think iPhone people can make fun

00:36:24 ◼   ► of former iPod touch people for having the contacts app.

00:36:27 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:36:28 ◼   ► - No, I said the only reason it's there

00:36:30 ◼   ► is because it's like an official Apple app

00:36:33 ◼   ► that actually contains some data

00:36:36 ◼   ► that I might ever want to look at.

00:36:38 ◼   ► I understand you get through all the phone,

00:36:39 ◼   ► but I don't use the phone app.

00:36:40 ◼   ► I don't use, why would I ever go into the contacts app?

00:36:43 ◼   ► What would I do there?

00:36:44 ◼   ► Like if I'm gonna send someone messages,

00:36:45 ◼   ► I do it from messages, then we're gonna call someone,

00:36:47 ◼   ► I do it from, you know, like, I'm not, you know,

00:36:49 ◼   ► I'm not using, it's just there,

00:36:50 ◼   ► it's there for the same reason Notes is.

00:36:51 ◼   ► Like, what the hell is Notes there?

00:36:53 ◼   ► It's just the official Apple, I have 50 Notes apps.

00:36:55 ◼   ► Why is Notes on the front page?

00:36:57 ◼   ► 'Cause it's the Apple one, I don't know.

00:36:59 ◼   ► - So to address your, what I think is the most egregious

00:37:02 ◼   ► icon taking up space on your home screen,

00:37:04 ◼   ► which is the WWDC one.

00:37:06 ◼   ► One of the big advantages of having a partially

00:37:09 ◼   ► or completely empty bottom row on your home screen

00:37:12 ◼   ► is that you can then place temporary use icons

00:37:15 ◼   ► in that bottom row.

00:37:16 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:37:17 ◼   ► - So like whenever I go to a conference or anything,

00:37:19 ◼   ► I always put conference related apps in the bottom row.

00:37:23 ◼   ► Whenever I'm going on a trip,

00:37:24 ◼   ► if there's like travel related apps for the trip

00:37:27 ◼   ► I'm going on, I'll put those in the bottom row.

00:37:28 ◼   ► - Oh, I don't like that idea.

00:37:31 ◼   ► I'm not running a boarding house here.

00:37:32 ◼   ► You don't have a temporary room for Rogers to come in.

00:37:35 ◼   ► No, I'm going to eventually get my home screen

00:37:38 ◼   ► to the way I like it.

00:37:39 ◼   ► It will settle down.

00:37:40 ◼   ► I had many, many years to hone my,

00:37:42 ◼   ► because the iPod Touch never changed.

00:37:43 ◼   ► I have many years to get that form factor right.

00:37:47 ◼   ► I'll settle it down.

00:37:48 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know.

00:37:49 ◼   ► Like really at this point, the home screen is so damn big

00:37:52 ◼   ► that it just seems like there's just not enough icons

00:37:55 ◼   ► that I care about enough to be there.

00:37:57 ◼   ► I guess, you know, it's really just that little row of three,

00:38:00 ◼   ► You know, I guess instapaper overcast Twitter epic letterpress the one game. I still play a lot

00:38:05 ◼   ► And I guess Instagram like that's and then everything else is just like man

00:38:10 ◼   ► I guess Safari and I guess and people are asking why I have videos and music in the dock videos

00:38:14 ◼   ► Occasionally I do watch I have a bunch of little like old TV shows and anime things and movies and stuff in there

00:38:20 ◼   ► I you know

00:38:21 ◼   ► Occasionally I do watch things like that or more likely open something for the kids so they can look at or whatever

00:38:27 ◼   ► Music I don't use either but it the lies out there because it's like it's in the dock

00:38:30 ◼   ► It's the official like the dock. I don't think is a great place

00:38:34 ◼   ► I never thought the dock was at a great place like people that I'll put your most important things a dock that way they'll always

00:38:38 ◼   ► Be there. I don't think it's good for thumb reaching. You know what I mean? Yeah, it used to be better for sure

00:38:42 ◼   ► So I never thought it was good

00:38:44 ◼   ► I always thought basically like overcast is essentially got the prime spot here overcast. So what I do every day

00:38:49 ◼   ► I wasn't the podcast in the car, you know overcast is the first thing, you know, I want to order Vic

00:38:53 ◼   ► I launch overcast.

00:38:54 ◼   ► So they were both like in the hotspots, right?

00:38:57 ◼   ► - And then you got Safari, Gmail messages.

00:38:59 ◼   ► That's probably good too.

00:39:00 ◼   ► - Right, but I keep missing them.

00:39:00 ◼   ► I keep going to their old spots.

00:39:02 ◼   ► So I really need to, and you know, messages, I don't know.

00:39:05 ◼   ► I'll figure it out eventually.

00:39:06 ◼   ► And I don't like how it looks either.

00:39:08 ◼   ► Aesthetically, it's kind of gross.

00:39:10 ◼   ► It's got problems.

00:39:12 ◼   ► - When we had your home screen on the topic list,

00:39:14 ◼   ► I never imagined we'd get this much enjoyment out of it.

00:39:17 ◼   ► - I think my home screen on topic list was dumb

00:39:19 ◼   ► and everyone who hates this topic, I agree with you.

00:39:21 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:39:24 ◼   ► - It's funny because the only reason

00:39:26 ◼   ► I even downloaded homescreen.is

00:39:28 ◼   ► is because we were talking about it.

00:39:30 ◼   ► Like I thought it was a little bit silly.

00:39:32 ◼   ► I mean, it's mildly intriguing to see

00:39:34 ◼   ► what somebody puts on their home screen,

00:39:36 ◼   ► but I don't know, it was like one of those silly fads

00:39:39 ◼   ► that just flew by Twitter

00:39:41 ◼   ► and I was seeing thousands of home screens,

00:39:45 ◼   ► but I don't know, seeing it how unbelievably bad you are

00:39:49 ◼   ► at managing your own home screen

00:39:50 ◼   ► does make me feel better about myself a little bit.

00:39:52 ◼   ► - My home screen looks better than both of yours though.

00:39:54 ◼   ► Marcos is a ghost town.

00:39:55 ◼   ► It's like, just he's got the dot on Instapaper

00:40:01 ◼   ► which truncates the name.

00:40:03 ◼   ► That's just, I mean, the dot is bad enough

00:40:05 ◼   ► but then having the dot actually push the name out

00:40:07 ◼   ► like the blue dot does sometimes,

00:40:08 ◼   ► that's in your home screen.

00:40:09 ◼   ► You gotta look at that all day.

00:40:11 ◼   ► And then the Instagram is screwing up your home screen too.

00:40:15 ◼   ► 'Cause look at all the other nice iOS 70 style icons

00:40:17 ◼   ► and all of a sudden Instagram's there saying,

00:40:19 ◼   ► "Hey, look at me, I'm from iOS 6."

00:40:21 ◼   ► No good.

00:40:21 ◼   ► Casey's looks like an explosion of bad clip art.

00:40:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:40:28 ◼   ► Gift wrap is truncated with a red dot.

00:40:31 ◼   ► I don't like the icon.

00:40:32 ◼   ► Baby Connect has it, has it the icon,

00:40:35 ◼   ► exactly the icon you would think Baby Connect had.

00:40:37 ◼   ► ESPN Football One is like,

00:40:38 ◼   ► "We just took our logo and shrunk it down."

00:40:40 ◼   ► That's an icon, right guys?

00:40:41 ◼   ► Moneywell's not too hot looking.

00:40:44 ◼   ► Fast text does not have feet.

00:40:45 ◼   ► And he's got three folders on his front page.

00:40:48 ◼   ► - Three folders, that is three folders, but an empty row.

00:40:51 ◼   ► I need these things to be two taps away at all times,

00:40:54 ◼   ► but I'm not gonna put anything in the bottom row.

00:40:56 ◼   ► If I use fantastic, I did research.

00:40:58 ◼   ► Does anybody know if I tried searching the app store

00:41:01 ◼   ► and this was futile.

00:41:02 ◼   ► I went to read all the stupid descriptions

00:41:03 ◼   ► after disclosing them.

00:41:04 ◼   ► I was looking for a calendar app

00:41:06 ◼   ► that would show me in my Google calendar.

00:41:08 ◼   ► Does that not exist?

00:41:09 ◼   ► - Does Google not have one?

00:41:11 ◼   ► - No, no, no, slow down.

00:41:12 ◼   ► If Google, if your Google account is one of the

00:41:15 ◼   ► official accounts in your phone.

00:41:18 ◼   ► Is that the only way to do it?

00:41:19 ◼   ► - I believe that's right.

00:41:20 ◼   ► - 'Cause I don't wanna do that.

00:41:22 ◼   ► I was just hoping, like there's a Gmail app

00:41:24 ◼   ► that just says I'm an app

00:41:25 ◼   ► and I will just connect you to Gmail.

00:41:26 ◼   ► It's mostly a web view anyway, whatever.

00:41:28 ◼   ► Like I'm not saying it's like native versus web,

00:41:30 ◼   ► but I figured, I was looking at, you know,

00:41:32 ◼   ► Calendars 5 or Fantastic Cal

00:41:33 ◼   ► or many of the other much better calendar apps

00:41:35 ◼   ► that maybe I have a fighting chance of actually using

00:41:38 ◼   ► if they would connect directly to my Google Calendar

00:41:40 ◼   ► without having me add it as a calendar thing

00:41:42 ◼   ► and, you know, in my iCloud account.

00:41:45 ◼   ► Someone says Sunrise will do it.

00:41:46 ◼   ► I saw a couple in there.

00:41:48 ◼   ► Truth is I really don't look at my calendar on my phone,

00:41:50 ◼   ► so I don't know, maybe.

00:41:51 ◼   ► - So why are you looking for an app?

00:41:52 ◼   ► - Yes, seriously.

00:41:53 ◼   ► - Because I figured now maybe like I'll be on the phone

00:41:56 ◼   ► with somebody and wanna look at a calendar thing

00:41:58 ◼   ► at the same time.

00:41:59 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:42:00 ◼   ► I'm just trying to figure out how my usage might change

00:42:03 ◼   ► now that I have a net connection everywhere instead of,

00:42:06 ◼   ► because previously, I would never need to do that

00:42:09 ◼   ► because I'd be in my house with Wi-Fi or at work at Wi-Fi.

00:42:12 ◼   ► It usually means I'm near my computer

00:42:13 ◼   ► and I can look at Google Calendar

00:42:15 ◼   ► the big, you know, the web version, which is what I use.

00:42:17 ◼   ► - Oh, this is amazing.

00:42:18 ◼   ► See, I think one of the reasons why,

00:42:21 ◼   ► like this does seem stupid, I agree.

00:42:24 ◼   ► A whole service devoted to sharing your home screen

00:42:27 ◼   ► that does basically nothing else, that does sound stupid.

00:42:31 ◼   ► But it's like looking at people's houses.

00:42:33 ◼   ► It's like, you kind of, it's kind of interesting.

00:42:36 ◼   ► You can tell a lot about a person

00:42:37 ◼   ► by what they have on their home screen,

00:42:39 ◼   ► how it's arranged, maybe what their background is.

00:42:42 ◼   ► - Well, you can tell from mine

00:42:42 ◼   ► is this person just got an iPhone.

00:42:44 ◼   ► - That's true, that's very true.

00:42:47 ◼   ► - Like I'm intrigued, Jon, like you have rotation lock on

00:42:50 ◼   ► because I imagine you like to be controlling that factor,

00:42:54 ◼   ► but your battery is not fully charged

00:42:57 ◼   ► and I'm kind of surprised that you let,

00:42:59 ◼   ► and of course your Verizon and WiFi coverage

00:43:01 ◼   ► are both kind of weak,

00:43:02 ◼   ► and so I'm kind of surprised you let that out.

00:43:04 ◼   ► - So my battery is plenty charged,

00:43:06 ◼   ► like a brand new iPhone 6,

00:43:07 ◼   ► that is a long battery life there.

00:43:09 ◼   ► The Verizon signal, the cell signal in my house is terrible.

00:43:12 ◼   ► - Verizon is the best in terms of signal.

00:43:15 ◼   ► Some carriers can't even get a signal inside my house.

00:43:17 ◼   ► This is why I have a Verizon iPhone.

00:43:19 ◼   ► So two bars, I'll take it.

00:43:22 ◼   ► - Casey, I just noticed on your home screen

00:43:24 ◼   ► that the wonderful new fast text icon

00:43:27 ◼   ► is not being recognized

00:43:29 ◼   ► because that version is not yet in the app store.

00:43:32 ◼   ► You should really fix that problem.

00:43:33 ◼   ► - Oh, I know, don't even get me started.

00:43:35 ◼   ► - At least it doesn't have a dot next to it.

00:43:37 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:43:39 ◼   ► - Do they really need the truncate for the dot end?

00:43:40 ◼   ► I don't like that with the blue dot too, but like yeah

00:43:43 ◼   ► You don't think that like there's plenty of room for the full name and the dot it should know

00:43:47 ◼   ► It should do a better job of like if there is room like next to day one the gif wrap thing like this room you

00:43:52 ◼   ► Could show the rest of gift wrap shift that dot over it wouldn't be into the world

00:43:55 ◼   ► Well, and they also could just put the dot on the corner of the icon the way badges are done

00:44:00 ◼   ► Like maybe maybe put on the left corner so that it doesn't hide the badge

00:44:04 ◼   ► I don't understand who that badge is for like for people who have beta apps, but don't know they have beta apps

00:44:10 ◼   ► Do you forget which one is the beta?

00:44:11 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:44:12 ◼   ► It doesn't make any sense.

00:44:14 ◼   ► - Our final sponsor this week is Backblaze.

00:44:17 ◼   ► Backblaze is unlimited, unthrottled,

00:44:19 ◼   ► uncomplicated online backup.

00:44:22 ◼   ► And it's just $5 a month, unlimited space.

00:44:25 ◼   ► It's really a fantastic deal.

00:44:27 ◼   ► I highly recommend that you use online backup.

00:44:29 ◼   ► There's so many reasons why you should.

00:44:31 ◼   ► There's so many classes of problems

00:44:33 ◼   ► that online backup completely protects you from.

00:44:36 ◼   ► Like, you know, if all your backups for all your stuff

00:44:38 ◼   ► are directly connected to your computer

00:44:40 ◼   ► or if they're in your house,

00:44:41 ◼   ► then there's things like power surges, fires, floods, theft,

00:44:46 ◼   ► there's all sorts of environmental problems

00:44:48 ◼   ► that can happen to your house

00:44:50 ◼   ► that could wipe out all of your data at once,

00:44:52 ◼   ► even your backups.

00:44:53 ◼   ► With Backblaze, that's a thing of the past.

00:44:56 ◼   ► You are paying them to manage all this for you,

00:44:59 ◼   ► you don't have to worry about disks failing.

00:45:01 ◼   ► If your computer doesn't backup properly to Backblaze

00:45:05 ◼   ► after a certain amount of time,

00:45:06 ◼   ► it will email you and warn you,

00:45:08 ◼   ► "Hey, something's wrong.

00:45:09 ◼   ► "We haven't heard from you in a while."

00:45:10 ◼   ► So many problems to protect you from.

00:45:13 ◼   ► They have these great mobile apps also for iOS and Android,

00:45:17 ◼   ► where you can browse your files right from your device,

00:45:20 ◼   ► you know, the files on your home computer.

00:45:21 ◼   ► So if you go on a trip or something, you forgot a file,

00:45:24 ◼   ► you can access it there.

00:45:25 ◼   ► You can also share the files right from your device.

00:45:27 ◼   ► Very, very handy.

00:45:28 ◼   ► Backblaze was founded by ex-Apple engineers.

00:45:30 ◼   ► They respect the Mac quite a lot,

00:45:32 ◼   ► and their app is fully native on the Mac.

00:45:34 ◼   ► This is not like a weird Java app

00:45:36 ◼   ► or some other weird runtime.

00:45:38 ◼   ► It is a native app, it runs very well.

00:45:40 ◼   ► I've backed up many terabytes of stuff

00:45:42 ◼   ► to back plays over the years.

00:45:44 ◼   ► I've used them for, before they were a sponsor,

00:45:47 ◼   ► I was even using them then.

00:45:48 ◼   ► And I use them for my computer, my wife's computer,

00:45:50 ◼   ► my mom's computer.

00:45:52 ◼   ► It's great this weekend for Thanksgiving,

00:45:54 ◼   ► if you're going home, set it up on your parents' computers.

00:45:57 ◼   ► It's fantastic because then if it doesn't hear

00:46:00 ◼   ► from your parents' computers in a while,

00:46:01 ◼   ► it'll email you if you're the account holder.

00:46:03 ◼   ► So you can then go help out your parents,

00:46:05 ◼   ► say, "Hey, your backup's not working.

00:46:07 ◼   ► let me go fix it. Backblaze, I love it. It is unthrottled, you can upload as quickly

00:46:12 ◼   ► as you can. I've had issues with a few other providers with that and I've never had an

00:46:17 ◼   ► issue with Backblaze. It really is simple. It really is just five bucks a month unlimited,

00:46:22 ◼   ► no gimmicks, no add-ons, five bucks a month for unlimited disk space and it's really great.

00:46:28 ◼   ► I love Backblaze. Go to backblaze.com/atp. I definitely think you should use online backup

00:46:35 ◼   ► And if you're gonna use one,

00:46:36 ◼   ► I'd say Backblaze is by far the best.

00:46:38 ◼   ► And I'd say that even if they weren't paying me to say it,

00:46:40 ◼   ► and in fact, before they were paying me to say it,

00:46:42 ◼   ► I was saying that.

00:46:43 ◼   ► Anyway, thank you very much to Backblaze

00:46:45 ◼   ► for sponsoring the show.

00:46:46 ◼   ► Go to backblaze.com/atp.

00:46:49 ◼   ► - All right.

00:46:50 ◼   ► I'd like to yell at Marco for a little bit.

00:46:55 ◼   ► - Gladly.

00:46:56 ◼   ► - Where's my freaking Overcast Mac app?

00:46:58 ◼   ► - Wait, wait, wait, before you yell at him about that,

00:47:00 ◼   ► why do you want a Mac Overcast app?

00:47:03 ◼   ► Okay, so the reason I want a Mac Overcast app is because I actually do a lot of my podcast

00:47:10 ◼   ► listening at work, and if I'm going to do that, I'd like to do it on my Mac.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Because it seems silly in my personal opinion to have your phone or your iPad out just for

00:47:22 ◼   ► the purposes of listening to a podcast when I have a perfectly functioning computer right

00:47:28 ◼   ► in front of me that would do the trick.

00:47:31 ◼   ► And yes I am aware that Overcast has a web app and yes it is very good.

00:47:36 ◼   ► No it's not.

00:47:37 ◼   ► Well I mean it's pretty good.

00:47:38 ◼   ► No it's really not.

00:47:39 ◼   ► It's pretty terrible.

00:47:40 ◼   ► Go ahead.

00:47:41 ◼   ► Either way, but now that I've become addicted to smart speed, I must have that in my life

00:47:48 ◼   ► and I can't get that through HTML5 without you going away for 10 years and reinventing

00:47:54 ◼   ► half of the internet.

00:47:56 ◼   ► So I want to know where my Overcast for Mac app is please.

00:48:01 ◼   ► Okay, so first of all, there's a couple of cases to be made here, a couple of different options to take.

00:48:08 ◼   ► Obviously, I should make the web app better. That is point number one.

00:48:15 ◼   ► And if the web app is better, it will remove a lot of the reasons why people might want a Mac app.

00:48:20 ◼   ► Not all of them, granted, and not some big ones. But it will remove many of the reasons why people would want a Mac app.

00:48:28 ◼   ► It would also be a heck of a lot easier in many regards than making a whole Mac app

00:48:32 ◼   ► Especially because I've never made a Mac app before so I don't know

00:48:35 ◼   ► anything about like all of app kits intricacies and weirdnesses and limitations and and

00:48:41 ◼   ► So I would have to learn all that from almost from scratch like, you know

00:48:45 ◼   ► So some iOS knowledge would carry over but not a whole lot. I thought you did write a Mac app

00:48:50 ◼   ► Okay, I should clarify. I wrote one Mac app the tumblr backup app

00:48:55 ◼   ► It was terrible.

00:48:57 ◼   ► It was very clearly my first Mac app ever written

00:49:00 ◼   ► and I spent maybe two hours on it

00:49:02 ◼   ► and most of the actual work was done in a PHP file

00:49:05 ◼   ► that was embedded in the app itself.

00:49:07 ◼   ► - Are you really serious?

00:49:08 ◼   ► - I am totally serious.

00:49:09 ◼   ► - Oh my God, you are the worst.

00:49:11 ◼   ► - Because it was like connecting to the Tumblr API

00:49:13 ◼   ► and making a bunch of downloads

00:49:15 ◼   ► and making all these directories and everything

00:49:16 ◼   ► and I had actually already written the PHP script

00:49:20 ◼   ► just for my own personal use to back up my own Tumble log

00:49:23 ◼   ► And I asked David one day, "Hey, can I make a backup app?

00:49:27 ◼   ► "'Cause people keep asking me about this.

00:49:29 ◼   ► "And let me just make a Mac app."

00:49:31 ◼   ► And so I just made a wrapper that wrapped,

00:49:34 ◼   ► executing that PHP script, and that's it.

00:49:38 ◼   ► Anyway, so I basically have no Mac knowledge.

00:49:43 ◼   ► - So that's the reason?

00:49:45 ◼   ► - Well, that's a reason.

00:49:46 ◼   ► So another reason is, how do I put this gently?

00:49:50 ◼   ► - You don't, you just let it rip.

00:49:52 ◼   ► Look at other apps that are made by individual developers

00:49:56 ◼   ► in the podcast, RSS kind of space.

00:50:00 ◼   ► Look at other apps that started out on iPhone,

00:50:04 ◼   ► then went to iPad, and then went to Mac.

00:50:07 ◼   ► And then for many of them, development basically stopped.

00:50:11 ◼   ► And so I see this in a few apps that I used to use

00:50:15 ◼   ► and it kinda scares me because clearly,

00:50:18 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know what anyone's story is.

00:50:21 ◼   ► I haven't looked into any of these in detail,

00:50:22 ◼   ► but it sure looks like when you go to that third platform,

00:50:26 ◼   ► especially 'cause the Mac is so different from iOS,

00:50:28 ◼   ► it sure looks like a lot of developers just get stuck

00:50:30 ◼   ► because there's just so much to keep up with at that point.

00:50:33 ◼   ► Then you have these three different,

00:50:35 ◼   ► possibly these three different code bases,

00:50:38 ◼   ► these, all this different platforms moving

00:50:40 ◼   ► at different times.

00:50:42 ◼   ► As the platforms advance,

00:50:43 ◼   ► you have to try to keep up with them,

00:50:45 ◼   ► and it just seems like the Mac app is like,

00:50:48 ◼   ► is like the kiss of death for indie developers

00:50:51 ◼   ► who started on iOS.

00:50:52 ◼   ► It's like, "I'm gonna make a Mac app."

00:50:53 ◼   ► And then inevitably, it doesn't seem like

00:50:55 ◼   ► they sell very well.

00:50:56 ◼   ► I never heard of anybody saying they made a ton of money

00:50:58 ◼   ► off their Mac apps after they came from iOS first.

00:51:01 ◼   ► I mean, obviously, if you're making productivity,

00:51:05 ◼   ► professional software, that's a different story.

00:51:06 ◼   ► But in this kind of space,

00:51:08 ◼   ► I haven't heard of great success there.

00:51:11 ◼   ► So it just, ooh, I'm very scared of it

00:51:15 ◼   ► basically bogging me down, weighing me down,

00:51:18 ◼   ► and making it very hard for me to keep everything updated.

00:51:21 ◼   ► So that's a major point.

00:51:23 ◼   ► I also, I don't think Overcast is really making

00:51:26 ◼   ► enough money where it makes sense for me

00:51:28 ◼   ► to pay somebody else to make it.

00:51:30 ◼   ► And I don't think it would,

00:51:32 ◼   ► I don't think it would bring in enough money itself, really,

00:51:37 ◼   ► to justify the expense of somebody else making it for me.

00:51:40 ◼   ► So I think it's the kind of thing where if it's going to,

00:51:41 ◼   ► it's just I'm gonna have to make it.

00:51:43 ◼   ► And so again, that just scares me from a total engineering

00:51:47 ◼   ► bandwidth perspective that is scary.

00:51:50 ◼   ► The other thing is how much of a gain am I getting

00:51:56 ◼   ► from the web app as a result?

00:51:58 ◼   ► So to me the big things are smart speed

00:52:00 ◼   ► and offline file saving.

00:52:02 ◼   ► And those are both very big things.

00:52:04 ◼   ► And there's a few other things like for instance,

00:52:07 ◼   ► I have, I don't think I ever said this publicly before,

00:52:11 ◼   ► but I have a file upload feature.

00:52:14 ◼   ► And it's only enabled on my account right now.

00:52:16 ◼   ► And I developed this a long time ago.

00:52:19 ◼   ► It's probably been there for a year.

00:52:20 ◼   ► And I was initially going to launch with file upload support

00:52:24 ◼   ► where you have a special folder,

00:52:26 ◼   ► it's just like your inbox or your uploads,

00:52:28 ◼   ► and you upload files to it

00:52:29 ◼   ► and then you can play arbitrary files.

00:52:32 ◼   ► This is useful for me

00:52:33 ◼   ► because I record the Howard Stern show

00:52:34 ◼   ► and then I can play the Howard Stern files

00:52:36 ◼   ► on my podcast app, which is very convenient.

00:52:38 ◼   ► I built, the whole feature is there,

00:52:40 ◼   ► it's built out on S3.

00:52:42 ◼   ► And I was a little scared with business concerns

00:52:44 ◼   ► and things like piracy concerns and takedown notices.

00:52:47 ◼   ► If I don't have to be responsible for these files,

00:52:51 ◼   ► for both the costs and liabilities

00:52:52 ◼   ► of hosting people's uploads, that would certainly be ideal.

00:52:56 ◼   ► At WWDC, when iCloud Drive was announced,

00:52:59 ◼   ► I thought, you know what, I'm just not gonna release

00:53:02 ◼   ► that S3 uploads feature that I made.

00:53:04 ◼   ► Ideally, I'm going to rebuild this feature

00:53:07 ◼   ► using iCloud Drive and very easily also support Dropbox,

00:53:10 ◼   ► like if it's easy to also support anything else

00:53:13 ◼   ► that uses the document picker, which it probably is,

00:53:15 ◼   ► I could do stuff like that.

00:53:16 ◼   ► So that is a way better feature.

00:53:18 ◼   ► That being said, that will never work in the web app.

00:53:22 ◼   ► So there are certain things like that,

00:53:25 ◼   ► like handoff I can do from the web,

00:53:27 ◼   ► a lot of people don't know this,

00:53:28 ◼   ► you can do handoff from web apps to iOS apps and vice versa.

00:53:32 ◼   ► So I could do a handoff playback,

00:53:34 ◼   ► but it isn't as good or as easy from the web

00:53:36 ◼   ► and there's a few little gotchas.

00:53:38 ◼   ► The web, I'm always facing issues of different browsers

00:53:42 ◼   ► being a pain in the butt about something.

00:53:45 ◼   ► One of the biggest problems actually,

00:53:48 ◼   ► and this could end up being really problematic

00:53:51 ◼   ► depending on the direction that web browsers go,

00:53:53 ◼   ► is mixed content security.

00:53:56 ◼   ► Right now it's considered bad for SSL

00:54:00 ◼   ► if you have a page that's served over HTTPS

00:54:03 ◼   ► that includes any assets that are not served over HTTPS.

00:54:07 ◼   ► The problem is Overcast does not host the podcast files

00:54:10 ◼   ► because that would be insanely expensive

00:54:12 ◼   ► and bring a lot of other problems like lack of control,

00:54:15 ◼   ► lack of download stats for the publishers,

00:54:17 ◼   ► things like that.

00:54:18 ◼   ► So most podcast files are hosted on regular HTTP links

00:54:23 ◼   ► that are not HTTPS because who cares?

00:54:26 ◼   ► So my web interface is all secure.

00:54:31 ◼   ► So almost every Overcast player page

00:54:33 ◼   ► has this mixed security problem.

00:54:36 ◼   ► And that prevents a lot of things.

00:54:38 ◼   ► For example, it prevents me from ever making

00:54:40 ◼   ► a Twitter card that includes the audio player feature,

00:54:44 ◼   ► which is really annoying,

00:54:45 ◼   ► 'cause I would love for Overcast's Twitter links

00:54:47 ◼   ► to have a built-in player and a card,

00:54:49 ◼   ► if anybody uses the card interface, I don't know,

00:54:51 ◼   ► I don't know how Twitter works.

00:54:52 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:54:53 ◼   ► But Twitter cards are required to be all HTTPS,

00:54:56 ◼   ► including all the resources they load,

00:54:58 ◼   ► including the media they load.

00:55:00 ◼   ► So I can't do that unless I proxy all those files,

00:55:03 ◼   ► which again is very expensive

00:55:04 ◼   ► and has a lot of problems associated with it.

00:55:07 ◼   ► I'm also completely held at the whims of browser developers.

00:55:12 ◼   ► Let's say Chrome decides, oh, we think something is bad

00:55:17 ◼   ► and we're gonna stop supporting it next week

00:55:19 ◼   ► because of security or whatever.

00:55:21 ◼   ► If that something is some kind of behavioral detail

00:55:24 ◼   ► of the HTML5 audio player or something like that,

00:55:27 ◼   ► I'm just screwed.

00:55:28 ◼   ► So there's all these problems with the web app approach that it's not worth killing

00:55:35 ◼   ► the web app, it's not worth having overcast on Mac be the only way you could play overcast

00:55:42 ◼   ► files on a Mac, but there's a lot of reasons why a web app might not be the, probably shouldn't

00:55:48 ◼   ► be the only way you can play things.

00:55:50 ◼   ► That makes sense?

00:55:51 ◼   ► Like, relying on a web app for the kind of functionality I do, I mean if you're making

00:55:57 ◼   ► something else, that's a whole different story.

00:55:59 ◼   ► But if you're relying on serving

00:56:01 ◼   ► mixed security level resources

00:56:03 ◼   ► with this cutting edge HTML5 audio player,

00:56:07 ◼   ► and if I would try to build in things like effects

00:56:10 ◼   ► and speeds into it, which some of that can be done

00:56:13 ◼   ► with some of the new audio APIs,

00:56:14 ◼   ► smart speeds still can't, which is unfortunate,

00:56:18 ◼   ► although it would have to be written in JavaScript,

00:56:19 ◼   ► so it might be horribly slow. (laughs)

00:56:22 ◼   ► Anyway, the point is, I'm relying on a lot of

00:56:25 ◼   ► little edge cases and cutting edge features of web browsers

00:56:28 ◼   ► to make this work at all.

00:56:30 ◼   ► And that's not a good place to be in

00:56:31 ◼   ► because that could change at any time.

00:56:33 ◼   ► I also just hate web development.

00:56:35 ◼   ► I'm so sick of it from having done so much of it

00:56:39 ◼   ► in the last 15 years or whatever.

00:56:41 ◼   ► I'm so tired of web development.

00:56:43 ◼   ► The idea of making a really amazing JavaScript player

00:56:49 ◼   ► for the web does not interest me very much.

00:56:51 ◼   ► I will eventually have to make it better.

00:56:53 ◼   ► And I was actually gonna start doing that today,

00:56:55 ◼   ► but I got sidetracked, but I haven't really answered

00:56:57 ◼   ► your question at all, but that should give you some idea

00:57:00 ◼   ► of where my head is on this.

00:57:01 ◼   ► I have not started a Mac app,

00:57:03 ◼   ► and I still am not sure if I'm going to make one.

00:57:06 ◼   ► - Why don't you do just like a little player app

00:57:08 ◼   ► for the Mac that, you know, handoff or otherwise,

00:57:10 ◼   ► you're not gonna like make a Mac version

00:57:13 ◼   ► of the entire Overcast app where you can see

00:57:15 ◼   ► all your playlists and edit them or whatever,

00:57:16 ◼   ► just a simple way to say, somehow you will find your way

00:57:21 ◼   ► to the thing that you want to play somewhere else,

00:57:23 ◼   ► and you will say, "Play this on my Mac,"

00:57:25 ◼   ► And that will let KC use his play/pause button

00:57:27 ◼   ► on his keyboard to, you know, like just a playback app.

00:57:32 ◼   ► And I guess you'd have to either hand off from the web,

00:57:34 ◼   ► hand off from the iOS app or something similar.

00:57:37 ◼   ► But really what you'd be handing off is just the URL.

00:57:39 ◼   ► And then once you're into the Mac app,

00:57:40 ◼   ► it's like play this now.

00:57:41 ◼   ► And it would, I guess, have to show a title

00:57:43 ◼   ► and get some information and maybe show some artwork.

00:57:45 ◼   ► But it would save you from having to do the full UI.

00:57:49 ◼   ► And it would so clearly just be like a player.

00:57:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, but at that point, why half-ass it?

00:57:57 ◼   ► If that's all I'm gonna do, I mean, I don't know.

00:58:01 ◼   ► I guess anything's better than the current web app.

00:58:03 ◼   ► - I mean, what you can do then is on the web app,

00:58:06 ◼   ► which you'd be like, well, the web app might work for you,

00:58:08 ◼   ► but if it doesn't work for you, click this button

00:58:09 ◼   ► and it'll open whatever, X Overcast, whatever URL

00:58:13 ◼   ► that will launch the Overcast app when it's installed

00:58:15 ◼   ► and with that URL, then you'll be off.

00:58:18 ◼   ► I don't know, it would solve Casey's problem anyway.

00:58:21 ◼   ► He doesn't need the full Overcast app on his Mac.

00:58:23 ◼   ► He just wants to be able to play without it independently.

00:58:27 ◼   ► And I guess maybe it would be,

00:58:29 ◼   ► what would it do when it got to the end of the track?

00:58:31 ◼   ► Would you send it to the entire playlist

00:58:32 ◼   ► full of URLs and metadata?

00:58:34 ◼   ► Would it be slaved, kind of like your Mac is the watch

00:58:38 ◼   ► and the phone is running overcast

00:58:40 ◼   ► and it would be slaved out to communicating

00:58:42 ◼   ► across a hand-off initiated connection

00:58:44 ◼   ► to feed it what the next track is?

00:58:46 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:58:47 ◼   ► - Well, but I mean, ultimately,

00:58:49 ◼   ► all of my syncing code, that's all Mac compatible.

00:58:52 ◼   ► All of the audio processing code, that's all Mac compatible.

00:58:56 ◼   ► All I'm really talking about is I'd have to basically

00:58:57 ◼   ► write the entire UI from scratch.

00:58:59 ◼   ► But the UI doesn't necessarily have to be that complicated.

00:59:03 ◼   ► On iOS it's complicated because they do a lot

00:59:04 ◼   ► of customization, like a lot of appearance customization

00:59:07 ◼   ► to give my fonts and my styles and everything.

00:59:11 ◼   ► On OS X, maybe I don't need to do that.

00:59:13 ◼   ► I don't know, I haven't looked into any of this.

00:59:16 ◼   ► - You gotta do what Icon Factory did

00:59:18 ◼   ► and port UIKit to the Mac first, right?

00:59:21 ◼   ► - That's a pretty big prerequisite.

00:59:22 ◼   ► I'm not sure I'm gonna do that.

00:59:24 ◼   ► - They already did it for you, it's done.

00:59:25 ◼   ► - I thought they abandoned it 'cause nobody was interested.

00:59:28 ◼   ► - I know, probably, 'cause it's just a ridiculous prerequisite

00:59:31 ◼   ► to running a Mac app.

00:59:32 ◼   ► Like you think you're gonna save time,

00:59:33 ◼   ► but it's like, what, do we sign ourselves up

00:59:35 ◼   ► to maintain now?

00:59:36 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

00:59:38 ◼   ► So anyway, that's why I don't have one yet,

00:59:40 ◼   ► and I might have one in the future.

00:59:43 ◼   ► There's a bunch of other stuff I wanna do first,

00:59:44 ◼   ► like, and this is the problem too, it's like,

00:59:46 ◼   ► do I work on a Mac app,

00:59:48 ◼   ► which will probably be a six month distraction, at least,

00:59:51 ◼   ► Or do I spend that six months making the iOS app even better?

00:59:56 ◼   ► Do I tackle some big problems like streaming,

00:59:59 ◼   ► maybe like chapter support, things people ask for.

01:00:02 ◼   ► Chapter support I'm less keen on

01:00:04 ◼   ► 'cause there's just so little demand for it,

01:00:06 ◼   ► but the people who do demand it are very loud,

01:00:09 ◼   ► but there's very, very little demand for it in reality.

01:00:12 ◼   ► And very few podcasts even have chapters.

01:00:15 ◼   ► So that's kind of low on the list,

01:00:16 ◼   ► but like streaming, that's a big deal.

01:00:18 ◼   ► That's something that I really need to do

01:00:20 ◼   ► because that makes some other nice features

01:00:24 ◼   ► better and possible.

01:00:26 ◼   ► So for instance, let's say you have,

01:00:28 ◼   ► you're playing something on your phone

01:00:31 ◼   ► and I implement Handoff and you hand it off to a Mac app

01:00:34 ◼   ► or vice versa.

01:00:36 ◼   ► Let's say the app that is receiving the Handoff

01:00:38 ◼   ► has not yet downloaded that file.

01:00:41 ◼   ► If I don't have streaming yet, that sucks

01:00:43 ◼   ► because that means that you handed it off

01:00:45 ◼   ► and then you have to sit there and wait

01:00:47 ◼   ► while that entire file downloads

01:00:48 ◼   ► before you can play any of it.

01:00:50 ◼   ► That's not very good.

01:00:51 ◼   ► And yeah, maybe I can do some kind of weird

01:00:53 ◼   ► little Lansing thing where I try to send it quickly,

01:00:54 ◼   ► but that's also hacky and not great.

01:00:57 ◼   ► Ideally, it would have streaming so that you can click

01:00:59 ◼   ► any overcast share link, any handoff link,

01:01:03 ◼   ► anything like that, and just start playing the file

01:01:05 ◼   ► if you have an internet connection,

01:01:06 ◼   ► which if you're receiving handoff stuff

01:01:08 ◼   ► and browsing Twitter, you probably do.

01:01:09 ◼   ► So just start playing the file.

01:01:12 ◼   ► Just start wherever, start at a certain timestamp,

01:01:14 ◼   ► even like if you start in the middle, that's fantastic.

01:01:16 ◼   ► if I can do that, that's very hard to do,

01:01:19 ◼   ► but that's what I actually want.

01:01:24 ◼   ► And there's so many features that are kinda being held back

01:01:26 ◼   ► by streaming, that's why streaming is the thing

01:01:29 ◼   ► I'm tackling next, I kinda wrote some of it

01:01:31 ◼   ► and then got sidetracked with other problems.

01:01:34 ◼   ► And there's always gonna be something like that.

01:01:36 ◼   ► Next year when iOS 9 comes out, maybe iOS 9 adds

01:01:39 ◼   ► more things I want to do.

01:01:41 ◼   ► When am I ever gonna have time to make an entire Mac app?

01:01:44 ◼   ► This is what worries me.

01:01:45 ◼   ► And when I look around and I see like the kiss of death of the Mac apps from all these other indie developers,

01:01:49 ◼   ► it doesn't look like a good idea to do.

01:01:52 ◼   ► I am intellectually, I'm interested in doing it. I would like to do it, but it doesn't look like I should do it.

01:01:59 ◼   ► See, and I think the problem that you're running into is you have Marko Myopia, or Myopia, whatever.

01:02:05 ◼   ► Anyway, the point is, because this is not something that you necessarily feel is missing from your world,

01:02:12 ◼   ► it's never gonna happen.

01:02:14 ◼   ► And that makes sense.

01:02:16 ◼   ► I mean, I don't fault you for that,

01:02:18 ◼   ► but like would the iPad app have happened

01:02:21 ◼   ► if you didn't kind of accidentally make it a few weeks ago?

01:02:25 ◼   ► Like what was the genesis of the iPad app, remind me?

01:02:28 ◼   ► - There was a bug with using storyboards as launch images

01:02:30 ◼   ► that would enable iPad sizing and iPad mode on apps

01:02:35 ◼   ► that were not actually iPad apps.

01:02:36 ◼   ► - Right, and do you think you would have still

01:02:39 ◼   ► had an iPad app version if it wasn't for that?

01:02:44 ◼   ► - Probably not yet.

01:02:45 ◼   ► - Exactly, okay.

01:02:46 ◼   ► So that's what I'm kind of driving at is

01:02:49 ◼   ► the iPad thing didn't really scratch an itch for you.

01:02:52 ◼   ► And so the only reason it exists today is because,

01:02:54 ◼   ► well, it kind of accidentally farted its way into existence.

01:02:58 ◼   ► And I think the Mac app, again,

01:03:00 ◼   ► because it doesn't really scratch an itch for you,

01:03:03 ◼   ► it's always going to be a lower priority.

01:03:06 ◼   ► That makes sense because if it doesn't really scratch

01:03:08 ◼   ► an itch, you're not gonna care as much as you would

01:03:10 ◼   ► if it was scratching an itch.

01:03:12 ◼   ► - I don't think it's so much about what he wants.

01:03:13 ◼   ► He's trying to address a market,

01:03:15 ◼   ► he doesn't feel like there's market demand.

01:03:17 ◼   ► As in, correct me if I'm wrong, Mark,

01:03:19 ◼   ► but it's not just like, oh, well,

01:03:20 ◼   ► I wouldn't use it there for a while.

01:03:21 ◼   ► If 50% of your users were clamoring for a Mac app,

01:03:24 ◼   ► you'd be considering it much more strongly,

01:03:26 ◼   ► whether you used it or not.

01:03:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's complicated.

01:03:29 ◼   ► So first of all, there is certainly the calculus

01:03:33 ◼   ► that goes on about, okay, well,

01:03:34 ◼   ► how many people are likely to even want this and use this,

01:03:37 ◼   ► you know, is there any money in it, is there going to be any meaningful user growth as

01:03:40 ◼   ► a result of it, and you compare that versus how much time it takes to implement. The iPad

01:03:45 ◼   ► version I don't think is doing much for me long term because I just don't think,

01:03:50 ◼   ► like I think podcasts, most people who listen to podcasts probably listen on their phone.

01:03:53 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure other people have discovered this information already. I don't think

01:03:57 ◼   ► this is an outrageous guess. The iPad app was only worth doing because it was relatively

01:04:02 ◼   ► easy and is not going to impose a massive ongoing cost of maintenance with things changing.

01:04:08 ◼   ► The way I did it was fairly low effort.

01:04:10 ◼   ► I did an adaptive UI with a split view.

01:04:13 ◼   ► So I'm doing a lot of Apple stock UI stuff.

01:04:17 ◼   ► It is never going to win me a design award or anything like that.

01:04:20 ◼   ► No one is ever going to look at the Overcast iPad app and say, "This is an amazing iPad

01:04:24 ◼   ► app.

01:04:25 ◼   ► This really shows off what the iPad can do."

01:04:26 ◼   ► It doesn't.

01:04:27 ◼   ► It's not.

01:04:28 ◼   ► why I made it and there isn't enough of a market

01:04:31 ◼   ► on the iPad as far as I know to justify doing that

01:04:34 ◼   ► for this type of app.

01:04:36 ◼   ► So I did what made sense because basically

01:04:38 ◼   ► it was cheap and easy.

01:04:40 ◼   ► The Mac is a totally different story.

01:04:42 ◼   ► The Mac, I'm guessing the size of the possible audience

01:04:47 ◼   ► of people who would play podcasts on a Mac with this app

01:04:51 ◼   ► is probably about the same size as the iPad audience.

01:04:55 ◼   ► But it's way harder to actually get there.

01:04:58 ◼   ► It takes way more effort because I have to rewrite

01:05:00 ◼   ► the entire UI from scratch and maintain that over time

01:05:04 ◼   ► and deal with, you know, like, it's so nice

01:05:08 ◼   ► being able to like, you know, listen to core intuition

01:05:10 ◼   ► and hear Daniel Jocko and Matt and Rhys talk about

01:05:12 ◼   ► like how terrible the Mac App Store is being some week

01:05:15 ◼   ► with some terrible signing bug or something like that.

01:05:18 ◼   ► It's so nice to listen to that and know that I don't have

01:05:20 ◼   ► to worry about that because I don't have anything

01:05:21 ◼   ► in the Mac App Store.

01:05:23 ◼   ► And the fact is if I did this, I'd be in the Mac App Store

01:05:24 ◼   ► 'cause I'd wanna use things like Handoff

01:05:27 ◼   ► and iCloud syncing and stuff like that,

01:05:29 ◼   ► like for certain things, make things better.

01:05:31 ◼   ► So like it's, going to the Mac would be

01:05:36 ◼   ► a very expensive proposition in time

01:05:39 ◼   ► and in ongoing maintenance.

01:05:40 ◼   ► And I'm very doubtful that enough of a market there exists

01:05:45 ◼   ► to make that worth the loss.

01:05:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, I understand it.

01:05:50 ◼   ► I don't know, it's hard to say because I am,

01:05:53 ◼   ► I'm no more convinced that I am right

01:05:56 ◼   ► and also that you are wrong.

01:05:58 ◼   ► You know, I know I want a Mac app really badly,

01:06:03 ◼   ► but for all I know, I'm the only one.

01:06:04 ◼   ► So it very well could be that I'm steering you

01:06:08 ◼   ► directly into financial ruin, you know,

01:06:11 ◼   ► figuratively speaking.

01:06:12 ◼   ► But man, I feel like it would be a relatively good

01:06:16 ◼   ► differentiator as well because something,

01:06:19 ◼   ► what has a Mac app?

01:06:19 ◼   ► Does Downcast have a Mac app?

01:06:22 ◼   ► - They definitely do.

01:06:23 ◼   ► I don't know if Instacast does, I'm not sure.

01:06:25 ◼   ► - Downcast definitely does, I think Instacast might.

01:06:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think Instacast does.

01:06:29 ◼   ► - And Underscore released a pod Wrangler Mac app,

01:06:33 ◼   ► I thought, in a beta capacity,

01:06:36 ◼   ► and it was very much what you're describing visually.

01:06:38 ◼   ► I mean, it was super simple, very stock,

01:06:42 ◼   ► nothing too exciting, but it was functional

01:06:46 ◼   ► and it got the job done, and I miss having that quite a bit.

01:06:49 ◼   ► And I'm not saying I'm the only one,

01:06:51 ◼   ► but I may be the only one at the same time.

01:06:55 ◼   ► Now Marco, how do you listen to podcasts as you're,

01:06:58 ◼   ► you're listening to fish as you work?

01:06:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm listening to music as I work.

01:07:01 ◼   ► It's often fish.

01:07:02 ◼   ► - When you're in front of the computer,

01:07:03 ◼   ► my point is you're not listening to podcasts

01:07:06 ◼   ► most of the time.

01:07:07 ◼   ► - Right, I almost never listen to podcasts on my Mac

01:07:11 ◼   ► or on any Mac, which is one of the reasons why

01:07:13 ◼   ► I have not been motivated to either make this

01:07:15 ◼   ► or make the web app better.

01:07:16 ◼   ► - Right, that's exactly my point earlier.

01:07:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, you're exactly right.

01:07:19 ◼   ► I mean, that is probably the biggest reason, honestly.

01:07:22 ◼   ► It isn't about market demand.

01:07:24 ◼   ► The biggest reason is that I don't care.

01:07:27 ◼   ► There are features I would like to enable

01:07:29 ◼   ► that would be cool, like I mentioned

01:07:31 ◼   ► some of the cool handoff stuff.

01:07:33 ◼   ► I would love to do stuff like that in a Mac app,

01:07:35 ◼   ► but ultimately I would very rarely use my own Mac app

01:07:39 ◼   ► as far as I can predict,

01:07:42 ◼   ► 'cause I don't listen to podcasts while I work,

01:07:43 ◼   ► 'cause I can't concentrate on both.

01:07:46 ◼   ► And I know a lot of people are like that.

01:07:48 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

01:07:49 ◼   ► Now, let me ask you honestly,

01:07:51 ◼   ► Do you have any interest in people tweeting at you

01:07:54 ◼   ► or anything like that if they are interested in the Mac app

01:07:57 ◼   ► or is that not going to change your mind?

01:08:00 ◼   ► - I mean, people have tweeted at me about that before.

01:08:03 ◼   ► Whenever I bring up the topic,

01:08:05 ◼   ► whenever someone else does,

01:08:06 ◼   ► I always get people saying, well, I'd buy it.

01:08:08 ◼   ► And that is nice to hear.

01:08:09 ◼   ► That does help, but it doesn't really indicate to me

01:08:13 ◼   ► how much of a market there is.

01:08:14 ◼   ► It just says the market is probably greater than zero.

01:08:17 ◼   ► But that doesn't really mean,

01:08:19 ◼   ► hearing from a handful of people on Twitter

01:08:22 ◼   ► does not really tell me,

01:08:24 ◼   ► this will probably bring in 50 grand a year or something.

01:08:28 ◼   ► Like it doesn't tell me something I need to know

01:08:31 ◼   ► or this might bring in 20,000 new users a year

01:08:35 ◼   ► or it doesn't tell me any of that information.

01:08:39 ◼   ► - It's gotta charge 10 bucks for it.

01:08:41 ◼   ► 9.99.

01:08:43 ◼   ► - Well that's the other thing.

01:08:44 ◼   ► So maybe I could make more money with it.

01:08:47 ◼   ► It would be--

01:08:48 ◼   ► - 'Cause it's bigger on the screen

01:08:49 ◼   ► and the bigger it is than square inches,

01:08:51 ◼   ► the more money you can charge.

01:08:52 ◼   ► That seems to be the logic that's in people's heads.

01:08:55 ◼   ► - Sure, yeah.

01:08:55 ◼   ► However, if I'm gonna charge good money for it,

01:08:58 ◼   ► and I probably wouldn't make it

01:09:00 ◼   ► if I wasn't gonna charge another five or 10 bucks

01:09:03 ◼   ► for the unlock for the things like smart speeds and stuff,

01:09:05 ◼   ► but if I'm gonna charge good money for an app,

01:09:06 ◼   ► I want it to be really good.

01:09:07 ◼   ► I don't wanna charge money for a terrible app.

01:09:10 ◼   ► And so, again, this is going back to the half-assed thing.

01:09:14 ◼   ► I'm not gonna make a terrible Mac app

01:09:16 ◼   ► that has almost no features,

01:09:18 ◼   ► with a $5 in-app purchase to unlock,

01:09:20 ◼   ► it's almost no features.

01:09:21 ◼   ► Like that's not a very,

01:09:23 ◼   ► that's just not, I don't wanna do that.

01:09:25 ◼   ► I would feel bad doing that.

01:09:26 ◼   ► But I'm also not gonna make one

01:09:28 ◼   ► that I don't feel good charging for

01:09:31 ◼   ► and just release it for free and have that be it.

01:09:34 ◼   ► So if I'm gonna do it,

01:09:37 ◼   ► I wanna do at least a reasonable job on it.

01:09:40 ◼   ► It doesn't have to be like amazing.

01:09:41 ◼   ► Again, it could be the same approach as the iPad

01:09:44 ◼   ► where it's like I'm going for pure utility value,

01:09:46 ◼   ► doesn't need to be fancy with the UI,

01:09:48 ◼   ► will never win an Apple Design Award or anything like that.

01:09:52 ◼   ► Most people would never even notice or care it's there,

01:09:55 ◼   ► would never get any recognition whatsoever.

01:09:56 ◼   ► But I would at least want it to be functional

01:10:01 ◼   ► and to have the basic features of,

01:10:04 ◼   ► the iPhone app only has three levels of navigation.

01:10:07 ◼   ► I mean, it's not like it's a very complicated UI.

01:10:11 ◼   ► So I don't know, maybe I could do a basic

01:10:12 ◼   ► little three-pane kind of thing.

01:10:14 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:10:15 ◼   ► - It makes sense.

01:10:16 ◼   ► I just don't want it to make sense.

01:10:17 ◼   ► I want you to say, you know what?

01:10:18 ◼   ► That's a brilliant idea.

01:10:20 ◼   ► I will do it tonight.

01:10:21 ◼   ► - No, I mean, honestly, I would like to do it

01:10:23 ◼   ► because I'm curious about Mac development.

01:10:25 ◼   ► This is one of the reasons why,

01:10:27 ◼   ► every time there's a new OS X release,

01:10:29 ◼   ► I hope for some kind of bringing over of something

01:10:33 ◼   ► from UIKit into AppKit,

01:10:37 ◼   ► or some kind of replacement to AppKit

01:10:39 ◼   ► that is more like UIKit.

01:10:41 ◼   ► 'cause there are so many pretty fundamental differences

01:10:44 ◼   ► between the two, between the way they work,

01:10:46 ◼   ► that, and I don't know how hard it's gonna be yet,

01:10:50 ◼   ► I've never tried really,

01:10:51 ◼   ► but I know it's gonna be really irritating

01:10:53 ◼   ► and it's gonna slow me down a lot

01:10:55 ◼   ► as I learn all these flaws and limitations of AppKit

01:10:57 ◼   ► and all these little weird behavioral details

01:10:59 ◼   ► and differences.

01:11:00 ◼   ► And I think it would,

01:11:02 ◼   ► not only it would enable some of my laziness,

01:11:05 ◼   ► but I think it would serve Apple well

01:11:07 ◼   ► to reduce that barrier between the two,

01:11:09 ◼   ► to make development for the Mac

01:11:12 ◼   ► more like development for iOS.

01:11:13 ◼   ► And I'm not saying bring over all of UIKit,

01:11:16 ◼   ► 'cause all of UIKit doesn't make sense on the Mac,

01:11:18 ◼   ► and there's a lot of things that the Mac does

01:11:20 ◼   ► that don't make sense in UIKit.

01:11:21 ◼   ► So I'm not saying they have to be unified,

01:11:23 ◼   ► but to at least be closer together,

01:11:26 ◼   ► to be more similar than they are now,

01:11:28 ◼   ► because right now, like the prospect of developing

01:11:33 ◼   ► a Mac app for an iOS developer has all this expense

01:11:37 ◼   ► and all this risk I was just talking about.

01:11:39 ◼   ► And if Apple can do anything to reduce that barrier,

01:11:42 ◼   ► to reduce the expense, to make it less overall

01:11:47 ◼   ► additional time to maintain a Mac app,

01:11:49 ◼   ► then there will be more Mac apps,

01:11:51 ◼   ► and people will be happier with their Macs,

01:11:53 ◼   ► and Apple will make more money on the Mac App Store,

01:11:55 ◼   ► and all of these benefits.

01:11:57 ◼   ► So I really hope they're going in that direction

01:11:58 ◼   ► sometime soon, so maybe I should start a Mac app

01:12:01 ◼   ► so they can then make everything easier a year later.

01:12:03 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:12:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, we'll see.

01:12:06 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.

01:12:08 ◼   ► Overcast for Mac, no.

01:12:10 ◼   ► Thanks a lot for the three sponsors this week.

01:12:12 ◼   ► Studio Neat, Hover, and Backblaze,

01:12:14 ◼   ► and we will see you next week.

01:12:15 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:12:18 ◼   ► ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:12:20 ◼   ► ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:12:23 ◼   ► ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:12:26 ◼   ► ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:12:29 ◼   ► ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:12:31 ◼   ► ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:12:33 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental, it was accidental

01:12:38 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:12:43 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:12:48 ◼   ► @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:12:52 ◼   ► So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:12:57 ◼   ► ♪ Anti-Marco, Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:13:02 ◼   ► ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

01:13:07 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:13:08 ◼   ► ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:13:11 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:13:12 ◼   ► ♪ Accidental ♪

01:13:13 ◼   ► ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:13:16 ◼   ► - Hey, on a extremely random note,

01:13:21 ◼   ► you know what I think a little sliver of me kinda wants?

01:13:24 ◼   ► - An overcast backup?

01:13:25 ◼   ► - Oh, no, that's more than just a little sliver.

01:13:27 ◼   ► I kind of am intrigued by the Gulf are

01:13:30 ◼   ► The oh the car the Volkswagen Golf at this Gulf. Mm-hmm. I thought he said Gulf - we may have found another hover Oh golf golf

01:13:38 ◼   ► Yeah, I think we did find another hover. That's how they say it in the south

01:13:41 ◼   ► Of here in winter we say golf

01:13:44 ◼   ► fine

01:13:47 ◼   ► What so so tell me what the golf are maybe you're not southern anymore

01:13:52 ◼   ► Maybe you're becoming European because the Americans don't like hot hatches. Oh, I hate hatchbacks

01:13:56 ◼   ► I absolutely hate hatchback. Well, then why you into the golf. I don't know. I don't know. That's the problem

01:14:02 ◼   ► I need an intervention quickly. No, I

01:14:04 ◼   ► Don't like hatchbacks. I don't like hatchbacks either even though on paper

01:14:09 ◼   ► They make a ton of sense because you know, there's just plenty of root

01:14:12 ◼   ► Well plenty ish of room this golf bar looks like it has rubber bands wrapped around its wheels

01:14:16 ◼   ► Like the tires are so low-profile it's like hurt hurting my butt just looking at the picture

01:14:22 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:14:24 ◼   ► - Oh, that's marvelous.

01:14:27 ◼   ► - Maybe that's a concept?

01:14:29 ◼   ► - You definitely could not drive that

01:14:31 ◼   ► in the state of New York.

01:14:33 ◼   ► Our roads are not that good.

01:14:34 ◼   ► - I don't know, I kinda want one.

01:14:35 ◼   ► And I really like that blue, actually,

01:14:37 ◼   ► that they do all the press shots in.

01:14:40 ◼   ► - See, the problem that you'd have with this, I think,

01:14:42 ◼   ► is that while it would be small and fun,

01:14:47 ◼   ► it would most likely be a giant step down

01:14:49 ◼   ► in so many interior amenities and interior qualities

01:14:52 ◼   ► things that I'm not so sure.

01:14:54 ◼   ► I think you might've ruined yourself with your current car

01:14:56 ◼   ► and it's gonna be hard to step down to this.

01:14:58 ◼   ► - I mean, it looks like the inside of a hatchback.

01:15:01 ◼   ► A lot of shiny stuff.

01:15:02 ◼   ► - It's a little shinier, I will give you that,

01:15:04 ◼   ► but it doesn't look that dissimilar from what I've got now.

01:15:07 ◼   ► - What's the deal with flat bottom steering wheels?

01:15:10 ◼   ► - Is that so like you can have your legs crunched up more?

01:15:12 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:15:13 ◼   ► - My theory, and I don't know if this is correct,

01:15:14 ◼   ► someone can correct me,

01:15:15 ◼   ► is that flat bottom steering wheels have their origin

01:15:18 ◼   ► in race cars where they cram the driver

01:15:20 ◼   ► into some little tiny thing and there's not enough room

01:15:22 ◼   ► for a full steering wheel so they had a flat bottom.

01:15:25 ◼   ► And then that wormed its way up into cars

01:15:27 ◼   ► where there's plenty of room just because,

01:15:29 ◼   ► oh, flat bottom steering wheel equals race car.

01:15:31 ◼   ► That may be entirely wrong,

01:15:32 ◼   ► but that's the only theory I can come up with.

01:15:33 ◼   ► Because as far as I can tell, functionally speaking,

01:15:36 ◼   ► I don't see what advantage the flat bottom would give you

01:15:39 ◼   ► because you can already tell what orientation the wheel is

01:15:42 ◼   ► because the spokes, you know,

01:15:43 ◼   ► like if you're looking for, and the lumps,

01:15:45 ◼   ► like there's so many other things that you can tell,

01:15:46 ◼   ► like you don't need a flat side to say,

01:15:48 ◼   ► I can tell what angle I'm at.

01:15:50 ◼   ► You can always tell, like they're not,

01:15:51 ◼   ► It's not a smooth symmetrical wheel.

01:15:53 ◼   ► So I don't understand the flat bottom.

01:15:56 ◼   ► - So I think I kind of want one.

01:15:57 ◼   ► Like not enough that I would get rid of the 335,

01:16:01 ◼   ► but there's something appealing now that I'm a dad

01:16:05 ◼   ► to having a little bit more trunk space

01:16:06 ◼   ► 'cause the 335's trunk not big.

01:16:09 ◼   ► - You think this would have more trunk space?

01:16:10 ◼   ► It's a pretty small car.

01:16:12 ◼   ► - You've got one tiny child.

01:16:13 ◼   ► You have plenty of trunk space.

01:16:14 ◼   ► What do you think you're storing?

01:16:16 ◼   ► - Oh no, I don't, I don't know, man.

01:16:17 ◼   ► but when I put the stroller in my trunk,

01:16:21 ◼   ► I'm losing, well, without some seriously creative

01:16:24 ◼   ► Marco level packing, I'm losing a significant amount

01:16:27 ◼   ► of trunk just with the damn stroller.

01:16:29 ◼   ► And the reason we got the stroller we got

01:16:30 ◼   ► was strictly because it folded up as small as it does.

01:16:34 ◼   ► - Well, if you just wait a year,

01:16:36 ◼   ► and then definitely can go in an umbrella type stroller,

01:16:39 ◼   ► which is just so much smaller,

01:16:41 ◼   ► they fold up so much smaller.

01:16:43 ◼   ► And then they're almost the size

01:16:46 ◼   ► like a skinny golf bag, like where you can then put it

01:16:50 ◼   ► long ways either direction and well in your car

01:16:52 ◼   ► you probably can't put it parallel to the car

01:16:54 ◼   ► but you could definitely put it perpendicular to the car

01:16:56 ◼   ► and yeah, fits great.

01:16:59 ◼   ► But yeah, if you're talking about trunk space

01:17:01 ◼   ► this is not going to help you.

01:17:03 ◼   ► Hatchbacks, you know, yes they have wider trunk openings.

01:17:08 ◼   ► - And more vertical space.

01:17:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, vertical space and if you're willing

01:17:11 ◼   ► to fold the seats down you can get, you can replace

01:17:13 ◼   ► most of the interior with effectively trunk space.

01:17:16 ◼   ► But if you have a car seat there,

01:17:18 ◼   ► like you're not folding the seats down,

01:17:19 ◼   ► or at least not both of them,

01:17:21 ◼   ► I would almost guarantee that your current car,

01:17:24 ◼   ► your 3 Series, has overall roughly the same amount

01:17:28 ◼   ► of space as this or slightly more for cargo area.

01:17:32 ◼   ► - Eh, maybe.

01:17:33 ◼   ► - And what you're really, really, I mean,

01:17:34 ◼   ► if you're looking at like larger trunk space,

01:17:36 ◼   ► you're looking at either a hatchback or GT version

01:17:40 ◼   ► of a 3 Series sized car, or you're looking at a larger car,

01:17:43 ◼   ► like a 5 Series or an Accord or something like that.

01:17:45 ◼   ► Like that's, I don't think,

01:17:47 ◼   ► like if you do more trunk space,

01:17:48 ◼   ► this is not the way to get it.

01:17:50 ◼   ► - I mean, I don't even know what I need trunk space wise.

01:17:52 ◼   ► I just feel like it will probably become an issue

01:17:55 ◼   ► sooner rather than later.

01:17:56 ◼   ► - Only if you let it.

01:17:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, fair point.

01:17:59 ◼   ► The other thing I was curious to hear your two cents

01:18:01 ◼   ► on the both of you is,

01:18:03 ◼   ► Erin has no desire for a new car.

01:18:06 ◼   ► She has a 2007 Mazda 6, which is,

01:18:09 ◼   ► I think as nicely appointed as it came at the time,

01:18:12 ◼   ► if memory serves, and she loves that car.

01:18:16 ◼   ► I would probably get murdered if I ever tried

01:18:19 ◼   ► to take it away from her, but if we were to get her

01:18:23 ◼   ► something different, what would we get her?

01:18:26 ◼   ► The obvious answer to me is X5, you know, used X5.

01:18:30 ◼   ► The bonus answer, which is a little more unique,

01:18:34 ◼   ► but probably a terrible idea, is an SRT-8 Grand Cherokee,

01:18:37 ◼   ► which is crazy fast and crazy fun,

01:18:40 ◼   ► but she would be stopping at a gas station every 10 miles.

01:18:44 ◼   ► - What's happening to you that you're considering

01:18:45 ◼   ► quote unquote high performance SUVs?

01:18:49 ◼   ► - Why not?

01:18:50 ◼   ► - What's going on?

01:18:51 ◼   ► What do you mean why not?

01:18:52 ◼   ► It's like either get...

01:18:55 ◼   ► No, it doesn't make any sense.

01:18:57 ◼   ► It's like getting an off-road Lamborghini,

01:18:59 ◼   ► which I know they're working on an SUV,

01:19:01 ◼   ► but I mean like, you know, if you have...

01:19:04 ◼   ► It's the wrong combination of things.

01:19:08 ◼   ► If you're gonna get some sort of big, tall,

01:19:11 ◼   ► four-wheel drive SUV-ish type thing,

01:19:14 ◼   ► don't get it with low profile tires and a super fast,

01:19:17 ◼   ► you're mixing things that don't work together.

01:19:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, but that's what makes it so magical.

01:19:22 ◼   ► - No, that makes it so ridiculous.

01:19:25 ◼   ► I keep trying, the Lamborghini was my example,

01:19:27 ◼   ► but they're making an SUV, so I can't think,

01:19:28 ◼   ► I can't, it's as if you had a Porsche SUV,

01:19:30 ◼   ► but they make one, it's as if you had a Ferrari SUV.

01:19:33 ◼   ► I think they've got one in the works too,

01:19:35 ◼   ► so there's no more examples I can use that are like,

01:19:38 ◼   ► I don't know, maybe like a Lotus,

01:19:40 ◼   ► they're probably gonna make a SUV too.

01:19:42 ◼   ► There's no good examples, but anyway,

01:19:43 ◼   ► it's not a good mix of things.

01:19:45 ◼   ► If you're gonna get something that's big and tall

01:19:47 ◼   ► and off-roady, get something that's big and tall

01:19:49 ◼   ► and off-roady, don't try to make it into a performance car,

01:19:52 ◼   ► 'cause it doesn't make any sense.

01:19:53 ◼   ► - Well also, SUVs have a similar problem

01:19:56 ◼   ► as what I was saying a minute ago about cargo space being,

01:19:59 ◼   ► so like a lot of people get these compact SUVs

01:20:03 ◼   ► that are based on the Civic size platform.

01:20:06 ◼   ► In BMW land, that would be definitely the X1,

01:20:09 ◼   ► which is based on the actual 1 Series,

01:20:11 ◼   ► and probably even the X3,

01:20:14 ◼   ► where it's based on a compact car.

01:20:16 ◼   ► Definitely the Lexus RX is one of these.

01:20:18 ◼   ► I think it's the best-selling luxury one by a long shot.

01:20:21 ◼   ► So the problem is, again,

01:20:25 ◼   ► they have a nice trunk size opening,

01:20:28 ◼   ► and if you're willing to lose all the seats temporarily,

01:20:30 ◼   ► you can carry large things in it,

01:20:31 ◼   ► but if you have one or both of the seats up,

01:20:34 ◼   ► you're not getting that much more space.

01:20:36 ◼   ► sometimes you're getting less space

01:20:38 ◼   ► compared to just a larger sedan.

01:20:40 ◼   ► Or especially if you're willing to go wagon

01:20:42 ◼   ► or like crossover style hatchback,

01:20:45 ◼   ► you can often get more space than you can in an SUV

01:20:49 ◼   ► or at least comparable space

01:20:50 ◼   ► without actually having to get an SUV

01:20:52 ◼   ► and deal with the very different

01:20:54 ◼   ► and generally worse handling, the large size,

01:20:56 ◼   ► the worst gas mileage, all that stuff.

01:20:58 ◼   ► So if what you're looking for is hauling around

01:21:02 ◼   ► large pieces of furniture occasionally, yeah, SUV.

01:21:05 ◼   ► You know, that's your best.

01:21:07 ◼   ► But even then, if you're gonna get an SUV

01:21:09 ◼   ► for cargo space reasons, don't get a compact one,

01:21:12 ◼   ► because they're usually not any more space

01:21:15 ◼   ► than a reasonable size car.

01:21:17 ◼   ► You're gonna have to go X5 size.

01:21:18 ◼   ► You're gonna have to go full-size sedan base

01:21:22 ◼   ► or small truck base to get massive cargo space in an SUV.

01:21:26 ◼   ► - I pasted your answer in the chat room, Casey.

01:21:28 ◼   ► - What, oh, the Tesla?

01:21:30 ◼   ► - That's unaffordable.

01:21:31 ◼   ► - You were looking at an X5, suddenly this is unaffordable?

01:21:34 ◼   ► - Well, no, I wouldn't buy it in X5 new.

01:21:36 ◼   ► I couldn't afford it new.

01:21:37 ◼   ► It would have to be a few years old.

01:21:39 ◼   ► - Well, then you'd have to wait a little bit longer.

01:21:40 ◼   ► But this will have plenty, this solves your problem

01:21:43 ◼   ► because it is SUV-like, it's going to have

01:21:47 ◼   ► pretty good performance and tons of car space,

01:21:49 ◼   ► this is no engine.

01:21:50 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:21:51 ◼   ► We're talking about the Tesla Model X, by the way.

01:21:53 ◼   ► - If you're going Tesla, you can just do the Model S

01:21:55 ◼   ► because the Model S has tons of, it's a very large stand

01:21:59 ◼   ► and it doesn't have the engine in the front.

01:22:00 ◼   ► So it has, the Model S has more space than my car

01:22:04 ◼   ► by a pretty big margin.

01:22:06 ◼   ► 'Cause it's just, I think it's like four inches longer.

01:22:08 ◼   ► It's a very long car, and it's a huge SUV.

01:22:12 ◼   ► It's a huge sedan.

01:22:13 ◼   ► It is basically as big as a sedan can get

01:22:15 ◼   ► without being completely outrageous in this day and age.

01:22:19 ◼   ► So I would say, if you're gonna go Tesla,

01:22:22 ◼   ► just get the Model S.

01:22:23 ◼   ► - I just, I can't believe,

01:22:24 ◼   ► I was going to ask you if they're suicide doors,

01:22:26 ◼   ► because it looked like the door handles in the back

01:22:28 ◼   ► are butting up. - Oh, go with it.

01:22:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, are butting up against the door handles

01:22:32 ◼   ► from the front.

01:22:33 ◼   ► And then I realized, oh, they're actually not gull wings, John.

01:22:36 ◼   ► According to this website, they are Falcon wings.

01:22:39 ◼   ► What are they faster?

01:22:41 ◼   ► Like do they open faster than the DeLorean doors?

01:22:44 ◼   ► I don't even know.

01:22:44 ◼   ► Is that the idea here?

01:22:45 ◼   ► Oh, no, I didn't even realize that have those kinds of doors.

01:22:48 ◼   ► Now I know I take back the recommendation.

01:22:50 ◼   ► Nevermind.

01:22:50 ◼   ► No, I got to read the, see whoa.

01:22:52 ◼   ► Falcon wings, calling them doors would be an understatement while

01:22:54 ◼   ► earning serious style points.

01:22:56 ◼   ► They're functional first Falcon wings open up and out of the way.

01:22:59 ◼   ► and even the narrowest of parking spots,

01:23:02 ◼   ► you easily step, not climb, into a Model X.

01:23:05 ◼   ► - That's really stupid.

01:23:08 ◼   ► - I also don't think this is a particularly

01:23:10 ◼   ► good looking car.

01:23:11 ◼   ► - No, it's not.

01:23:12 ◼   ► It's like Catfish.

01:23:13 ◼   ► - I think that the Teslas are getting progressively

01:23:17 ◼   ► less good looking.

01:23:18 ◼   ► Like the Model S, I like it.

01:23:20 ◼   ► - No, the Model S is a step up from the Roadster.

01:23:23 ◼   ► - The Roadster was a Lotus.

01:23:24 ◼   ► - I know, but it was ugly.

01:23:26 ◼   ► - Model S, I think, was pretty good in person.

01:23:29 ◼   ► In person, it does look large.

01:23:31 ◼   ► It does not look like a small car, 'cause it isn't one.

01:23:34 ◼   ► But besides how large it is, it looks pretty good.

01:23:37 ◼   ► - To go back a step, the right answer to my question,

01:23:40 ◼   ► which is purely hypothetical,

01:23:41 ◼   ► of what do you get as a family bombing around car,

01:23:45 ◼   ► it is a minivan.