93: I'm Not Running a Boarding House Here


00:00:00   Wait, we can't do it on 31st because Casey you might want to be at a New Year's party

00:00:03   I'm going to any parties anymore that part of his life is over now. Well, I notice I didn't even ask you John

00:00:08   That's my birthday. It is the 31st. It's his 40th birthday Marco get with the program. Oh, man, where have I been? Oh

00:00:14   You're the worst. Okay, so we won't record that day. Oh we can know it's a terrible. No, why is it a terrible idea?

00:00:20   I'm not going anywhere. Oh, that's bullshit. I'll be in the house. You should be going somewhere

00:00:25   So we're gonna should not be is my birthday gonna do what I want. I want to stay home

00:00:28   That's the BS where people think your birthday is about them and what they want to do.

00:00:33   I don't care what you want to do on my birthday. I care what I want to do.

00:00:37   Oh, Jon, I love you so much. Well, I'll talk to Tina and make sure that I understand that schedule.

00:00:43   We're not doing anything. We never do anything for my birthday. We're not doing anything for my birthday this year.

00:00:46   Is that her gift to you every year is not doing anything?

00:00:49   Yes, that's what I ask for every year. What do you want for your birthday? No gifts and no party.

00:00:52   Do you want to do some follow-up really quickly? Starting with batteries.

00:00:58   Sure, I think we were talking about how on the watch the components will have to go down

00:01:05   in power because the battery is not going to save it because batteries were only increasing,

00:01:09   not increasing as fast as the power usage of the internals of the watch might decrease

00:01:13   in their power thirst.

00:01:16   And I think I threw out a number like 15% year over year or something.

00:01:20   Anthony Fitti wrote in to say that the number is actually much lower than that and I talked

00:01:25   about this on hypercritical number 74 which is way back in when June of 2012 had a similar

00:01:31   show and wondered the same thing and probably got feedback probably from the same person

00:01:34   I don't even remember but anyway the actual number is more like seven to eight percent

00:01:38   year over year for battery increases so if you're looking for battery technology to save

00:01:44   the watch that's not going to happen it's going to be just like the phone where the

00:01:46   components are just going to have to go down in power usage and it's going to be a long

00:01:51   time before batteries are twice as good as they are now, four times as good, ten times

00:01:55   as good.

00:01:56   Yeah, there's something about the, a lot of the watch speculation from people has really

00:02:02   kind of annoyed me.

00:02:03   People keep saying, "Oh, well, you know, right now the watch is going to have this

00:02:07   battery life.

00:02:08   It's going to have, you know, one day.

00:02:09   But in only a few years it's going to have way better battery life."

00:02:13   And I think this is not only, you know, related to the feedback, it's not only an overestimation

00:02:17   of how quickly batteries get better, but also I think it's ignoring the way things usually

00:02:23   tend to happen with computer form factors.

00:02:27   Look at the phone, for instance.

00:02:28   Look at the iPhone.

00:02:29   The very first iPhone battery life was roughly a day of usage.

00:02:35   Almost every iPhone since then has been roughly a day of usage.

00:02:40   You know, like the 6 Plus, now it's like maybe two days for some people depending on

00:02:45   it. But the battery life in the entire iPhone line in the last, what, seven and a half years

00:02:52   has stayed pretty much the same, you know, give and take here and there, but in the same

00:02:57   ballpark. We're not talking about orders of magnitude difference here. You know, it's

00:03:01   not going from a day to a week or to a month. Because the reality is you're bound by how

00:03:08   how much mass you have to devote to battery space, and generally what kind of power outputs

00:03:15   you need. And things like radios, it's hard to make those lower power because you need

00:03:19   a certain amount of transmit power, etc. Screens, you know, you have to emit a certain amount

00:03:24   of light. And so even like the watch, I suspect they're going to go to OLED screens, either

00:03:30   in the first version or soon afterwards. And I suspect that's why everything is designed

00:03:35   with black backgrounds because OLEDs, as far as I know, actually only use electricity to

00:03:39   light up the lit pixels, is that right?

00:03:41   Yeah, each individual pixel emits light so if you have ones that are entirely off, they

00:03:45   don't.

00:03:46   Right, so if you have an all black screen with a few thin white lines, that actually

00:03:49   doesn't use a whole lot of power for the LED.

00:03:52   Anyway, ultimately I think the watch is always going to be extremely battery constrained.

00:03:57   It's always going to last roughly a day.

00:04:00   That's always going to be the target because what's going to happen when the battery gets

00:04:04   eight percent more efficient next year.

00:04:06   They're gonna make the watch eight percent thinner

00:04:08   or something, like that's what they do.

00:04:10   They're not gonna make it 10 times larger

00:04:13   and give you a week of battery life.

00:04:15   That's, like typically if you look at

00:04:17   different form factors of technology,

00:04:21   same thing in tablets.

00:04:22   Tablets have roughly 10 hours of battery life usually.

00:04:25   And that's not a coincidence, it's because everyone

00:04:28   just kind of figured, okay, well the best balance

00:04:30   of weight to brightness to computational power

00:04:34   to radios to size gives roughly these proportions

00:04:39   and it's roughly in that ballpark.

00:04:41   The watch I don't think is ever gonna be at the point

00:04:44   where it gets a month of battery life

00:04:47   like a traditional watch or even longer.

00:04:49   I think we're always gonna be measuring it

00:04:51   in small numbers of days for,

00:04:55   and well, not always on an infinite time scale,

00:04:58   but not, maybe not on a Syracuse time scale,

00:05:01   but for the foreseeable future,

00:05:04   and I'm talking probably a decade, possibly longer,

00:05:09   I think that's the kind of magnitude of battery life

00:05:12   we're gonna be talking about here.

00:05:13   I don't think that's going to change.

00:05:14   - For all the battery stuff for these things,

00:05:16   you can just think of the battery as constant,

00:05:18   even though it's seven to 8% a year.

00:05:19   Compared to everything else, it's basically constant.

00:05:21   And what Apple in particular has done,

00:05:24   even if you just ignore thickness and stuff,

00:05:26   which we talk about a lot,

00:05:27   If you just made it a little bit thicker every year they spend the additional resources like that

00:05:32   You know say they do a process shrink

00:05:34   Oh now we have all this extra power overhead because all our stuff takes less power or we switch to OLED. We just got

00:05:38   40 50 percent screen power back. What are we gonna do with all that?

00:05:43   Well, what they do with all is they spend it on compute they make the CPU faster

00:05:46   They make the GPU faster and how much faster they decide to make it how much do they spend on RAM?

00:05:50   CPU GPU they spend as much as they possibly can

00:05:53   while keeping the thing the same thickness or thinner and keeping the same battery life.

00:05:57   But that's where they spend it all because the CPUs keep getting faster and faster and they keep with the shrinks like

00:06:02   when they have the shrink if they had the shrink and said let's just keep the CPU the same as it was we're not gonna

00:06:07   go to 64-bit we're not gonna go to three cores we're not gonna go to two cores

00:06:10   we're just gonna have one core our battery life could be tremendous now, but they don't they always spend it

00:06:14   I mean as soon as they get the the additional power savings from the major components

00:06:20   Not the additional battery life, the additional power savings.

00:06:23   They spend as much as they can to meet their goal, which in Apple's case tends to be thinner

00:06:27   if possible and whatever the target battery life is.

00:06:31   Other people could be spending that same windfall, again, not a windfall from battery gains,

00:06:35   windfall from lower power components.

00:06:37   They could spend it in all sorts of ways.

00:06:39   They could spend it merely by increasing their battery life and just keep it the same.

00:06:42   Then we'd be using a CPU and a GPU that are as powerful as the iPhone 1, but our battery

00:06:46   life would be insane.

00:06:47   But nobody wants that, I don't think.

00:06:49   Yep, probably not. I don't know. This is going to be our photo management thing, like from the prompt,

00:06:57   isn't it? Where we just continually complain about the fact that Apple is insisting on thin

00:07:02   over everything. I don't complain about it. I think it's a reasonable thing to do. It's just

00:07:06   that when you diversify the line of products, maybe there's room finally for one that varies

00:07:11   in this way. You know what I mean? Like when there's just one product and then you're constantly

00:07:16   making it thinner, it seems like you might be missing out. But they have such a range,

00:07:19   especially with the big giant phone, it seems like there'd be room in their lineup to make a different compromise in this particular area.

00:07:25   Instead of going across the board, it's always got to be

00:07:28   thinner for the target battery life. Right, like what if there was an iPhone 6 thick?

00:07:33   One millimeter thicker than the 5s with the 6, not the 6 Plus, because that might be a little unwieldy at the 6 Plus size,

00:07:40   but with the regular 6,

00:07:43   slightly thicker than the 5S,

00:07:44   instead of being slightly thinner than it.

00:07:46   That might give it 40% more battery life,

00:07:49   and it would be a little heavier as a result.

00:07:50   And see, this is the problem with batteries,

00:07:52   is that they're heavy too.

00:07:53   Like it isn't just about making space for them,

00:07:56   it's also about weight.

00:07:57   - That's why I said you could go

00:07:58   for the iPhone 5 form factor,

00:08:01   like if they bring that back,

00:08:02   well, you know what I mean.

00:08:03   Make a new phone in that size,

00:08:04   instead of just continuing the 5S and the 5C.

00:08:07   If you made the cheap phone thick,

00:08:08   the cheap small phone, make it thick,

00:08:11   Then it's like, well, the top of the line one is super thin and sexy.

00:08:15   If you get the four inch model, which is, you know,

00:08:19   I guess it's still that the five s internals like put a thicker battery

00:08:23   on that one, then then it kind of makes sense in the lineup

00:08:25   rather than trying to make the big expensive one thick.

00:08:27   Because like you said, heavier feels like, hey, shouldn't I you know, this

00:08:31   this feels shouldn't I be getting the sleek one like the Palm

00:08:35   five was the sleek Palm and it was because it was so much thinner than the other.

00:08:38   Palm five was so good.

00:08:40   Go. You ever look at one recently?

00:08:41   - Yeah, I looked at mine recently, it's just gigantic.

00:08:43   - Really?

00:08:45   - Yeah, it just does not look like you remember it

00:08:47   in your mind.

00:08:48   - Yeah, 'cause I had the 5X after my 3X finally died.

00:08:52   Like it took so long for anything else to come out

00:08:55   that was as good as the 5X.

00:08:58   - Was that 160 by 160 pixel screen?

00:09:00   - I believe so, yeah, something like that.

00:09:02   - So that's almost as big as an iOS icon

00:09:04   or is it not even close?

00:09:05   - Yeah, it's not, it is as big as most iOS icons.

00:09:09   We are sponsored this week by Studio Neat once again.

00:09:13   The guys at Studio Neat designed tools

00:09:15   that make the things you have just a little bit better.

00:09:17   They started with the GLIF, that's the G-L-I-F, the GLIF,

00:09:20   a tripod mount and stand for iPhones.

00:09:23   Well now they have a new version of it that is adjustable.

00:09:26   So it adjusts with case size changes of the iPhone.

00:09:30   So now when the new iPhones came out,

00:09:32   when the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus came out,

00:09:34   it was compatible on day one.

00:09:35   And it works whether or not you have a case on your phone.

00:09:38   They also make the Cosmonaut stylus,

00:09:40   which I like a lot, it's my favorite stylus for iPads.

00:09:43   And now they've moved on to cocktails and cocktail products.

00:09:47   So the Studio Neat Guys, Tom and Dan,

00:09:49   are on a mission to convince you

00:09:51   making awesome cocktails at home isn't that hard.

00:09:54   Cocktails are simple,

00:09:54   you just need a few readily available ingredients.

00:09:57   You have access to everything a fancy cocktail bar does,

00:10:00   except clear and correctly sized ice.

00:10:03   To fix this, Tom and Dan made the Neat Ice Kit.

00:10:06   Neat Ice Kit is a set of tools

00:10:07   for creating the right ice for your at-home cocktails.

00:10:11   Now, Casey, you have a Neat Ice Kit, as do I.

00:10:13   Can you describe how it works?

00:10:15   - Sure, so the Neat Ice Kit has a few components.

00:10:18   It is a silicone sleeve, for lack of a better word,

00:10:23   and then a foam insulated thing that you put around it.

00:10:28   - It's like a giant cozy.

00:10:29   - Yeah, yeah, that's a very good word.

00:10:30   - By the way, is it cozy or coozy?

00:10:32   'Cause I always thought it was cozy.

00:10:34   - You're from Ohio.

00:10:35   Anyway, this is about the Neat Ice Kit,

00:10:37   And the neat ice kit is amazing.

00:10:38   And, um, we, I made a whole review on my, put a whole post on my blog, a review of

00:10:45   this thing, which I never do because I like it so darn much and what you do is

00:10:49   you have the silicone sleeve that you put some water in, I think it's like four

00:10:51   inches long, um, two inches deep and, um, two inches wide.

00:10:55   And so you fill it up with water.

00:10:58   You put that silicone sleeve inside the cozy, cozy, cozy, whatever.

00:11:02   And discuss the SCSI.

00:11:04   Right.

00:11:05   And you put that in the freezer, wait about a day, and what ends up happening is because of the way ice freezes,

00:11:11   you have a 4x2x2 block of ice that's about half really, really cloudy and half crystal clear.

00:11:18   And so what you do is you use the included mallet and chisel to break the block in half,

00:11:26   and you can use the cloudy part for things like martini shakers or something like that,

00:11:31   where it's not terribly important that you have clear ice.

00:11:34   And then you can use the clear piece for, you know,

00:11:37   just having a cocktail on the rocks

00:11:39   or in this case on the rock.

00:11:41   You can chisel it even further

00:11:44   and use it in like a Tom Collins glass, et cetera, et cetera.

00:11:47   This thing is amazing.

00:11:49   It is totally, totally a waste of time by most measures.

00:11:53   And oh my God, I love it so much.

00:11:55   I really honestly do.

00:11:56   And granted I'm paid to say that.

00:11:56   - It's a collage recommendation.

00:11:58   - Like I'm being paid to say I love it, but no, really.

00:12:02   Oh my God, it's the best.

00:12:03   It really, really is the best.

00:12:04   And if you at all care about the quality of your cocktails,

00:12:07   I cannot suggest enough that you pick one of these up.

00:12:09   It's amazing.

00:12:10   - Each neat ice kit includes the scuzzy mold

00:12:14   that we were just talking about,

00:12:15   a chisel that includes a bottle opener,

00:12:17   a club which also functions as a muddler, and a Lewis bag.

00:12:20   So you can use these things to create essentially

00:12:22   any ice type you could need for a cocktail.

00:12:24   You can make a big, beautiful, clear ice cube

00:12:26   for like an old fashioned or something.

00:12:28   You can make smaller ice chunks for a Tom Collins.

00:12:30   You can make crushed ice for a mint julep.

00:12:32   This makes an amazing gift for the holidays.

00:12:35   You can give people for wedding gifts and everything.

00:12:37   This is one of those things like,

00:12:39   I always joke every holiday season about like,

00:12:41   the entire category of gifts that are for other adults

00:12:46   that you don't really know what else to get them

00:12:50   and maybe they're hard to shop for

00:12:51   'cause they hate everything

00:12:52   or they already have everything.

00:12:54   This category of gifts is usually full of a bunch of garbage

00:12:57   There's a very small number of things

00:12:59   that I would recommend in this category

00:13:00   and this is one of them.

00:13:02   Thanks a lot to Studio Neat and the Neat Ice Kit

00:13:05   for sponsoring our show.

00:13:06   Once again, go to studioneat.com and use code ATP

00:13:11   to get 10% off anything in the store.

00:13:13   Once again, Studio Neat, N-E-A-T, studioneat.com,

00:13:17   use code ATP for 10% off.

00:13:19   Check out the Neat Ice Kit.

00:13:20   I also very highly recommend the Glyph and the Cosmonaut.

00:13:24   - Okay, so we also got some feedback from JP Toto,

00:13:29   who corrected, I think mostly me more than anyone else,

00:13:33   about IIS or the Microsoft web server

00:13:37   on anything other than Windows.

00:13:39   And so he or she said,

00:13:41   "Regarding the IIS on Linux.net business,

00:13:44   it won't actually be IIS running on Linux or the Mac.

00:13:48   It is a new web server called Kestrel built on libuv

00:13:51   and it's a lot like the Node web server.

00:13:53   I don't know the exact threading model,

00:13:54   but you can front end it within nginx, nginx,

00:13:57   how do you pronounce that, nginx?

00:13:59   - Engine X you got it.

00:14:00   - Okay, thank you.

00:14:00   Or something else.

00:14:02   So don't worry, nobody will be running big fat IES

00:14:04   on any Linux machines anytime soon.

00:14:06   So that makes a lot more sense

00:14:08   than what I think I said on the last episode.

00:14:11   So I appreciate the followup from JP Toto.

00:14:14   Moving on, can you manufacture that thing

00:14:19   like Apple does, John?

00:14:21   - You can't.

00:14:22   - It's kind of insulting.

00:14:23   - Yeah, so this is a story,

00:14:25   we talked a lot about this,

00:14:26   about how Apple manufactures things.

00:14:30   Last show we talked about how Apple deciding

00:14:33   that it was going to make essentially its entire product

00:14:35   line out of big blocks of aluminum

00:14:37   that precision machines into certain shapes

00:14:40   affected the rest of the industry

00:14:41   and helped the rest of the industry have the expertise

00:14:45   and have the machinery and the supplies

00:14:47   out there to do this for their products as well,

00:14:49   like that Nokia Mac mini clone thing.

00:14:52   And there was a whole article on Medium--

00:14:54   I forgot to copy down the author's name here.

00:14:56   20 you can look it up, about how you can't manufacture like Apple does.

00:14:59   And it's short, there's just a couple of throwaway one-liner anecdotes about things that Apple

00:15:05   has done.

00:15:06   Like they bought 10,000 CNC milling machines to make MacBook bodies instead of just a couple

00:15:11   of them.

00:15:12   To laser drill those holes that let you see the LED that shines through the aluminum,

00:15:16   like you can't see the holes when the light is off, when the light is on it magically

00:15:18   shines through.

00:15:20   There was only one company that made the drills that could make those little holes, so it

00:15:26   bought the company and took all of its existing imagery to do it and you know

00:15:29   they talk about manufacturing a battery to fit in some tiny space if no one

00:15:32   sells you a battery that fits in there and no one's willing to make you one

00:15:35   you just make one yourself from scratch that's usually not an option for most

00:15:38   people a lot of it just has to go with you know it's good to be the king it's

00:15:41   good to be a big gigantic company with tons of money and it also means that

00:15:46   other companies that don't make products that look as nice as apples or like try

00:15:53   - Try to imitate Apple's products.

00:15:55   Like they'll use aluminum, they'll use glass,

00:15:57   they'll use laser cut holes and everything like that.

00:16:00   If you're going to do exactly the same thing as Apple,

00:16:02   it may be very difficult for you to make something as good

00:16:05   or at a similar price or both.

00:16:07   Your best bet I would imagine is to make something

00:16:10   that feels, if you wanna make something

00:16:12   that's equally high quality,

00:16:13   if you're like, why doesn't everything feel

00:16:14   like it's made like an Apple product?

00:16:16   You can make something high quality,

00:16:19   you just might have to make it out of a material

00:16:22   that feels high quality but is either a more established process or you know it costs less

00:16:27   money or it doesn't require any special machinery.

00:16:29   It can still feel expensive and high quality.

00:16:32   You don't have to chase Apple exactly.

00:16:33   If you do chase Apple exactly you're going to have a very hard time doing exactly what

00:16:37   they do for the same cost that they do because they just have massive economies of scales

00:16:41   and a huge investment.

00:16:42   And probably people on their payroll or people who are locked into exclusive contracts that

00:16:47   are the best at doing whatever it is they do.

00:16:50   So you can take a look at that in the show notes.

00:16:52   I think I pretty much just summarized the entire article.

00:16:55   John, why don't you tell us about how awesome

00:16:58   it is to have an empty row on the bottom of your iPhone home

00:17:01   screen?

00:17:02   I told you about these people last week

00:17:03   when we were talking about leaving the empty row

00:17:05   and all that stuff like that.

00:17:06   And I said, some people don't have any rows.

00:17:08   And they just put everything in a set of folders.

00:17:10   And one of those people sent us a screenshot.

00:17:12   We'll put a link to their tweet in the show notes.

00:17:14   It just has four folders in the doc.

00:17:17   And each of the four folders has what looks like a color-coded

00:17:19   set of nine icons or there could be more,

00:17:21   you can't tell how many pages.

00:17:23   And so that's it, their screen is just blank.

00:17:26   It's just a big picture of the sun on the top.

00:17:28   And then, you know, so different strokes for different folks.

00:17:32   I mean, this could just be like

00:17:33   an artistic stunt type of thing.

00:17:35   But like I said, if you want everything to be two taps away

00:17:37   all the time, at least go for it.

00:17:40   - Yeah, when you said that some people did this.

00:17:43   - You didn't believe me.

00:17:44   - Yeah, I thought, yeah, maybe in theory,

00:17:46   somebody might be able to do this,

00:17:48   but there has to be nobody out there

00:17:50   who actually would make everything harder

00:17:53   to use on their phone.

00:17:54   - I mean, this could be a stump.

00:17:55   It's from the color coding.

00:17:56   It's like, you know, maybe this is just like a silly thing.

00:17:58   They just set up this way to take a screenshot,

00:18:00   but I've seen people in real life

00:18:01   who don't just have the dock.

00:18:02   Like what they will have is a row of folders at the top,

00:18:05   and the dock will have like, you know,

00:18:06   phone and mail and safari or whatever, you know,

00:18:09   like the dock will just have single icons,

00:18:11   but then they'll just have four icons

00:18:12   at the top of page one, all of which are folders.

00:18:16   - Whatever, I don't know.

00:18:17   This is not at all what my home screen looks like,

00:18:19   but I'll go with it.

00:18:20   I mean, this is why you have the ability

00:18:23   to customize it, I suppose,

00:18:24   so everyone can be their own special snowflake.

00:18:27   Tell me about Instagram completionist, Jon.

00:18:29   - Oh yeah, this was a complaint email from Jonathan,

00:18:33   another person suffering from my pain.

00:18:34   I put the whole thing in there

00:18:35   'cause I thought it was a nice summary.

00:18:36   - Suffering.

00:18:37   - It echoes my complaints.

00:18:39   Jonathan says, "I try hard not to be

00:18:42   an Instagram completionist, that is.

00:18:44   Instagram's behavior is maddening.

00:18:45   Not only does it forget where you are,

00:18:47   but as soon as a new image is posted,

00:18:48   you are returned to the top of your feed to see it.

00:18:50   I've never actually had this happen,

00:18:51   like where you're sitting there paging through images

00:18:53   and a new image appears,

00:18:54   'cause I don't follow enough people, I guess,

00:18:55   but if it scrolled me up to the top,

00:18:56   that would drive me mad as well.

00:18:58   You're also returned to the top of your feed

00:18:59   if you switch away from the app.

00:19:01   Whereas the feed has a fixed length,

00:19:02   if you get to the end of the feed,

00:19:03   you might be missing photos older

00:19:04   than the oldest one visible.

00:19:06   This leads me to the crazy behavior

00:19:07   of checking my feed twice a day so I don't miss anything.

00:19:09   This is probably exactly what Instagram wants.

00:19:11   I hate them.

00:19:12   (laughing)

00:19:15   You know, I have an Instagram completionist as well, and I don't know how many people

00:19:20   I follow.

00:19:21   I'll run my mouth for a second while I look, but I don't really have this kind of problem.

00:19:26   I agree with both you and Jonathan that it is maddening the way their app works for completionists,

00:19:33   but I don't run into these same kinds of problems that apparently you guys do.

00:19:36   Like I've never seen it jump to the top while I was browsing Instagram.

00:19:42   I don't think it even does that.

00:19:44   I don't follow I don't follow enough people to have it do that

00:19:46   But just merely the thing of just putting you at the top and you have to scroll back to find with the last picture you saw

00:19:50   Was and like Twitter does it intentionally like Twitter's thing is you're not supposed to care

00:19:54   You're not supposed to be Asian police and you're supposed to be just like what's happening now. What's in the moment?

00:19:57   It's like getting on a CB channel, you know in the 70s or whatever like hey

00:20:00   Ham radio or whatever keep going back in time everyone go on the Telegraph. Anyway, and what's going on?

00:20:06   What's going on now? You're not supposed to don't worry about the past the past of the past

00:20:10   what's going on now, which I think is not a great... I don't like that philosophy and

00:20:16   I certainly don't use Twitter that way. But anyway, that's what they're going for. Is

00:20:20   Instagram going for the same thing? Don't worry about what your people posted yesterday.

00:20:24   Only worry about the pictures that are happening today. I would wonder, what is their ideal

00:20:29   volume? How many photos come from people that you follow per day? Is it one? Is it seven?

00:20:35   Is it a hundred? Is it seven thousand? I don't know what their number is, but obviously my

00:20:39   My number is way below it.

00:20:40   And if they think it's very high,

00:20:42   if they think, like, I don't know, you're a teenager,

00:20:45   and all your friends are snapping

00:20:46   17 Instagram pictures a day, and you follow 50 people,

00:20:49   and it's just every day,

00:20:50   just hundreds and hundreds of pictures,

00:20:52   of course you're not gonna be a completionist.

00:20:53   You just wanna say, hey, what are people doing now?

00:20:55   Maybe you'll scroll back for one or two pictures,

00:20:57   but that's not how I use Instagram.

00:21:00   I'm not an experienced Instagram user,

00:21:02   so I can't say that's not what Instagram is

00:21:04   or what it started out as.

00:21:05   And certainly, Twitter did not really start out

00:21:08   as a completionist medium either, but I don't know.

00:21:11   I would love to ask if there is some person

00:21:14   who has a vision for both Instagram and Twitter,

00:21:16   why is it that the vision of don't worry about it

00:21:18   happened in the past?

00:21:19   What is appealing about that?

00:21:20   Why is that the goal?

00:21:21   I'm not saying it's a bad goal,

00:21:22   but it seems weird to me if Instagram is also like this

00:21:26   and Twitter is also like this.

00:21:27   Is there no room for anything where you care about,

00:21:31   especially things where you choose who you're gonna follow.

00:21:33   I guess you're just not supposed to care about everything

00:21:35   those people ever write.

00:21:36   I mean, Facebook, forget it.

00:21:37   Facebook is gone.

00:21:38   sees everything of anything anymore. It's all just...

00:21:41   Well, but there it's a monetization strategy. That's very different.

00:21:45   I know, but it's also to hold down noise, and they tied seeing things with friending

00:21:50   so you could silence people so they would still be your friends so you didn't hurt

00:21:53   their feelings but you'd never see any other stuff, and you could see things by friends

00:21:56   of friends, and it's... and you're right, the monetization strategy is in there too.

00:22:00   The mental model long ago on Facebook I feel like broke down to the point where regular

00:22:04   people don't understand the permutations, and they kept changing the rules anyway, so

00:22:08   and now it's just forget it.

00:22:08   But Twitter and Instagram are both so simple.

00:22:11   Vertical timeline, chronologically ordered

00:22:15   with a few variations thrown in, but not many,

00:22:18   that haven't changed that much.

00:22:20   And yet they also want you to just apparently be like,

00:22:22   in the moment, don't worry about what happened

00:22:23   five seconds ago.

00:22:25   Those pictures are dead to you, don't look back.

00:22:27   (laughing)

00:22:28   - Just real time follow up, by the way,

00:22:29   I follow about 90 people on Instagram.

00:22:32   And I would say based on no fact checking whatsoever,

00:22:35   just gut feeling,

00:22:36   I think I see between 10 and 20 pictures in a given day,

00:22:40   new photos in a given day.

00:22:42   So I don't see that many,

00:22:45   yet even in that small quantity,

00:22:47   this stuff all drives me crazy.

00:22:50   - I should also point out as a responsible developer,

00:22:52   the end skeptic,

00:22:53   that the reason why Instagram puts you up to the top

00:22:57   whenever you launch the app, whenever there's new stuff,

00:23:00   is probably at least,

00:23:01   it probably at least started out that way

00:23:03   because that's easier.

00:23:05   Like it's just a lot easier to say

00:23:07   every time you launch the app, you just load the feed,

00:23:08   whatever is the current feed, you load that up to X items

00:23:11   and you show that, period.

00:23:13   - Yeah, well that works up until well before

00:23:15   your purchase for a billion dollars.

00:23:17   You know what I mean?

00:23:18   That's like version one, minimum viable product,

00:23:20   don't worry about it, blah, blah, blah.

00:23:22   But then at some point you get around to that.

00:23:24   Some point in the multiple years before you're acquired

00:23:26   for a billion dollars, you get around to that,

00:23:27   if it's something that you want.

00:23:28   - Well that's not a given at all though,

00:23:30   because there's a lot of apps out there

00:23:33   from very large companies where the apps just suck

00:23:36   and where things just are never fixed.

00:23:37   For example, the Mac App Store.

00:23:41   - Well, Apple doesn't care about the Mac App Store.

00:23:43   - Right, how much does Instagram care about

00:23:45   the quality of their app for completionists?

00:23:48   - But like, it's the quality, their app is the main thing.

00:23:52   Like that is Instagram.

00:23:53   They don't even want you to use the website.

00:23:54   The website is like the Instagram website used to be.

00:23:56   It was just like, yeah, yeah,

00:23:57   and we have a website, whatever.

00:23:58   It's like the app is Instagram.

00:23:59   That's what was purchased for a billion dollars.

00:24:01   If they're not adding this feature,

00:24:02   it's because they don't feel like it's part of the product

00:24:04   they want to make.

00:24:05   And just like Twitter,

00:24:06   does not want you to be a completionist.

00:24:09   They don't want you to look back.

00:24:11   They don't want you to feel like you have to catch up.

00:24:13   They want it to be more kind of,

00:24:15   you just dip in to the stream,

00:24:16   look at it and dip and come back out.

00:24:18   But Instagram is like, I don't know,

00:24:22   for some reason, especially pictures,

00:24:24   it just seems like they're so much easier

00:24:26   to look at and skim and you'd be more likely

00:24:28   to be annoyed if you missed one.

00:24:29   Like you missed someone's tweet

00:24:30   about what they had for breakfast, who cares?

00:24:31   But if someone posted a baby picture and you missed it,

00:24:35   I don't know.

00:24:35   It's not the same as photo stream.

00:24:36   It's not the same as grandparents missing

00:24:38   pictures of their grandkids.

00:24:39   It is just kind of like, here's a bunch of photos

00:24:41   from people I know and follow.

00:24:42   But I guess I'm just not--

00:24:44   there's very few things that I'm interested in reading

00:24:48   or following or doing stuff with where I'm just going to dip

00:24:52   my toe in and be like, oh, let's see what's going on.

00:24:54   It's like not watching TV series.

00:24:55   Like, oh, I just turn on the TV and whatever's on.

00:24:57   I just watch a middle episode of some show

00:24:59   that I haven't watched anything about,

00:25:00   and then I just forget about it.

00:25:01   And the next day, if some other show was on, I watched.

00:25:03   Never watching whole seasons,

00:25:05   never watching shows in sequence,

00:25:06   just whatever's going on right now.

00:25:08   That does not appeal to me.

00:25:09   And I can't think of any media that appeals to me.

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00:27:53   - Really?

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00:28:04   Thank you very much to Hover

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00:28:25   - Sigh.

00:28:26   Anyway, John, I wanted to know what you have

00:28:31   on your iPhone's home screen.

00:28:35   And this is in part because Betaworks

00:28:38   has released an app called, what is it, Home Screen?

00:28:41   Is that the name of the app?

00:28:42   - It's Pound Home Screen.

00:28:44   - Ah, my bad, it's Pound Home Screen.

00:28:45   So, in any case, this has been flying around on Twitter

00:28:49   where everyone is posting their home screens

00:28:51   And I was curious, John, what do you have on your home screen of your iPhone?

00:28:57   I thought we talked about this last week.

00:28:59   I'll get to it in a moment.

00:29:01   But first I want to talk about this application, which I did download because

00:29:04   it was like, you know, everyone was downloading it and saying, oh, you know,

00:29:07   this home screen thing, or so I downloaded the home screen app.

00:29:09   I saw Marco complain that he couldn't find it for the search and then the app

00:29:13   store, because he searched for the exact app name and didn't come up with it, which

00:29:15   is great. Anyway, I downloaded the app and it wants you to take a screenshot of your

00:29:20   home screen, which I did, and it wants you to come back to the app and then it does something

00:29:24   and then it says, "Great, period.

00:29:26   Your screenshot is shared, period."

00:29:30   So I feel like I have now used this app for its intended purpose.

00:29:32   I have taken a screenshot of my home screen.

00:29:35   I have launched the app.

00:29:36   It gave me a confirmation message that says my screenshot is shared.

00:29:39   What it shows me on the screen of the app is a tiny picture of my home screen.

00:29:43   I'm like, "Yep, that's my home screen.

00:29:44   It is now shared."

00:29:45   I have no idea what to do from here.

00:29:47   It did put up a little window that said, "Would you tweet about this?"

00:29:49   no, I would not like to tweet about it, and I didn't.

00:29:52   And that's it, and now people are like,

00:29:53   "Hey, why isn't your home screen on there?"

00:29:55   Like, well, I shared it, can people not find my home screen

00:29:58   unless I tweet about it?

00:29:58   I don't wanna tweet about it.

00:30:00   I don't understand this application.

00:30:02   - All right. - Do you understand it?

00:30:03   Have you guys shared your home screen?

00:30:05   How are other people able to see my home screen?

00:30:08   - So by default, it, by the way, I didn't build this app.

00:30:12   - Yes, no, it's not Marco's app,

00:30:13   although I have been complaining to him directly.

00:30:15   - Yeah, so when I, so Betaworks, it's Betaworks' app,

00:30:18   and yes, I sold its paper to Betaworks,

00:30:19   and I know them, I don't work there.

00:30:22   And when I tweeted my screenshot,

00:30:24   so by default, it just shares it onto their website,

00:30:28   onto the home screen, I think it's homescreen.

00:30:31   - .is, right, but how can other people see it?

00:30:34   - So you can go there and there's a URL,

00:30:36   if you open up the tweet sheet,

00:30:37   you don't have to actually post the tweet,

00:30:39   it'll give you the URL, there is a public permalink

00:30:42   on that domain where you can view it.

00:30:44   The point of this is to tweet it though,

00:30:47   And so, anyway, to clarify, when I tweeted it,

00:30:51   I said in brackets, shameless app self-promotion.

00:30:55   And what I was saying was I was basically voting

00:30:59   for Overcast and Instapaper

00:31:01   because they were on my home screen.

00:31:03   And one of the cool things about this site

00:31:05   is that you can go to homescreen.is, is that it?

00:31:09   I already forgot the domain.

00:31:10   - That's what it says, but it's not loading for me.

00:31:12   - Anyway, you can go to the site and it'll show you,

00:31:16   It has like a, it keeps a tally of,

00:31:18   'cause what it does is it looks at the picture

00:31:21   of your home screen and then it actually uses

00:31:24   image recognition to recognize with pretty good accuracy

00:31:28   what apps those actually are.

00:31:30   And then it links to them, you can get to their iTunes pages

00:31:33   and then it keeps a tally of which apps are most popular.

00:31:36   So I was voting for my apps that are on my home screen

00:31:40   and that's why I said shameless app sale promotion,

00:31:43   not that I made the home screen app itself.

00:31:45   Anyway, why other people would wanna post it,

00:31:47   I don't know, it's up to them.

00:31:48   I mean, who knows?

00:31:50   (laughs)

00:31:51   A lot of people like to know that.

00:31:53   A lot of people like to share their home screens.

00:31:54   A lot of people ask us or other people they know on Twitter,

00:31:59   what is your home screen?

00:32:01   There used to be a whole site dedicated to it by somebody,

00:32:03   I forget who, I think it was one of our

00:32:05   Apple blogger friends, right?

00:32:07   - Yeah, a lot of people do that.

00:32:08   So in the app, there is a share button,

00:32:09   and it says tweet, which I don't wanna do.

00:32:11   Open in Safari, I suppose that'll take me to the URL,

00:32:14   Confirm app detection where you can go and confirm that it got your you know, did the image recognition

00:32:18   I did all that but other people can't find my homes. People were asking me when are you going to share your home screen?

00:32:23   I feel like I did I feel like it should be easier for people to find my home screen

00:32:27   Not that they care like my screen my home screen is a mess

00:32:30   So if you want to know what's actually on it, like I said, I have to fill in a row of icons before

00:32:33   I had to rearrange things to be in my thumb. I'm not really happy with my home screen

00:32:37   This is it's gonna change but it's just the usual stuff. Like I don't know there's anything exciting on here

00:32:43   I've got the main apps that I use every day which is overcast Twitter epic

00:32:48   You know Safari Gmail app which I use for my email

00:32:53   I've got you know, I'm on the dock. I've got phone photos video music

00:32:58   I've got Dropbox on near the App Store messages FaceTime

00:33:02   Google Maps and Apple Maps contacts like it just starts to tail off after that

00:33:07   I've got the WWDC app and like in a spot that has always been on my front screen

00:33:11   I've been doing that for the past few years just for the hell of it. Wait, really? Why is that there?

00:33:16   Is it to watch the videos? No, I don't use it

00:33:18   But like every year I replace it with the new version of the app like rather than having to rearrange everything

00:33:22   It is essentially a placeholder for itself

00:33:24   So so you have an app on your home screen that by definition you don't use for 51 weeks out of every year

00:33:32   Well, I use it on and off but like there's tons of apps in here that I don't use all the time

00:33:35   Like that's like a prime spot. That's like right right in thumb scanning range - well, I don't I don't have it

00:33:40   I have it far away.

00:33:42   I have it in a bad spot, right?

00:33:44   - It's in the middle row.

00:33:45   - It's far away from my thumb.

00:33:46   It's like I have to reach anything on that edge.

00:33:49   I suppose I could swap it with settings or whatever.

00:33:51   Like a lot of my problem has to do with muscle memory

00:33:53   for where things used to be

00:33:54   when I could reach the whole screen with my thumb.

00:33:56   I still keep reaching for upper left for Safari,

00:33:59   but it's not there anymore because it's too damn far away,

00:34:00   but I still reach past where it is.

00:34:02   So I have to adjust things.

00:34:04   And the Google Authenticator, I don't use that very often,

00:34:06   but I do want it on my home screen.

00:34:08   So there's just not enough apps

00:34:09   that I use frequently enough to be deserving

00:34:11   to be on the home screen.

00:34:12   So then it's like, maybe I should move these off

00:34:13   to find icons that look nicer.

00:34:15   'Cause I'm really not happy with the way this thing looks.

00:34:17   I really don't like the Instagram icon.

00:34:18   It still looks like iOS 6

00:34:20   and it's kind of mucking up my home screen.

00:34:22   - This is the most baffling home screen.

00:34:24   - It's not, this home screen is a mess.

00:34:26   Like this is not the way I want it.

00:34:27   Very few things.

00:34:28   The only things that I'm sure about more or less

00:34:30   are Twitter, I think, and Overcast,

00:34:31   which are really the main two apps I use every day.

00:34:33   Gmail and Safari used to be in totally different places

00:34:37   and I keep reaching for their old positions

00:34:38   and messages is kind of okay.

00:34:41   I didn't use it as much before I had an iPhone.

00:34:43   - I mean, Repost, do you use app.net a lot?

00:34:45   - I do, still check it.

00:34:47   - Oh my God.

00:34:48   - And the iTunes store, are you buying new albums a lot?

00:34:52   That's on your home screen?

00:34:53   - I want the App Store on the main page

00:34:55   'cause I do manual updates.

00:34:56   - App Store, yes, but the purple iTunes store.

00:34:59   - iTunes store, I'm like, it starts to tail off.

00:35:02   It's like, what else should I have in there?

00:35:04   So I kind of think like the official Apple stuff, you know?

00:35:07   like the main, because I don't use a lot of these apps a lot

00:35:11   so I just, I don't know, I have to sort it out.

00:35:13   - This is worse than the camera sound effect.

00:35:16   (laughing)

00:35:16   - Well, I mean, I've just moved to a new device,

00:35:18   my iPod touch home screen I was very happy with,

00:35:20   but here I'm kind of lost until I figure it out

00:35:23   and the subsequent screens are even worse,

00:35:25   it's just kind of a mess.

00:35:26   - You only get one more row, like you can't blame that.

00:35:29   - No, it's the row and the sizing.

00:35:31   The sizing threw off all my good positions of everything,

00:35:34   it's like, well now that is a bad position,

00:35:36   I would never put like calendar on the upper left.

00:35:38   I don't use it at all.

00:35:39   That used to be where Safari is.

00:35:41   It's impossible to reach my thumb.

00:35:42   So I gotta, you know, I have to put something

00:35:45   that I basically don't launch there.

00:35:46   And why is calendar on the front page?

00:35:48   I guess so I can see the date, I guess,

00:35:49   'cause it's the official calendar.

00:35:50   I don't use Apple's calendar, I use Google Calendar.

00:35:53   - See, the thing that drives me nuts about your home screen,

00:35:55   which R. Jonesy pointed out to me,

00:35:58   is you made the rookie iPhone user mistake

00:36:00   of having contacts and phone on the same screen,

00:36:03   because you can do, to the best of my knowledge anyway,

00:36:06   you can do everything in contacts,

00:36:09   everything you can do in contacts,

00:36:10   you can do in the phone apps.

00:36:11   So having both is just completely wasteful and redundant.

00:36:14   - But I don't use either one of those apps.

00:36:16   I don't use the phone, I use contacts.

00:36:18   - That's the thing, like Mac people make fun

00:36:20   of Windows people for maximizing all their windows.

00:36:23   I think iPhone people can make fun

00:36:24   of former iPod touch people for having the contacts app.

00:36:27   (laughing)

00:36:28   - No, I said the only reason it's there

00:36:30   is because it's like an official Apple app

00:36:33   that actually contains some data

00:36:36   that I might ever want to look at.

00:36:38   I understand you get through all the phone,

00:36:39   but I don't use the phone app.

00:36:40   I don't use, why would I ever go into the contacts app?

00:36:43   What would I do there?

00:36:44   Like if I'm gonna send someone messages,

00:36:45   I do it from messages, then we're gonna call someone,

00:36:47   I do it from, you know, like, I'm not, you know,

00:36:49   I'm not using, it's just there,

00:36:50   it's there for the same reason Notes is.

00:36:51   Like, what the hell is Notes there?

00:36:53   It's just the official Apple, I have 50 Notes apps.

00:36:55   Why is Notes on the front page?

00:36:57   'Cause it's the Apple one, I don't know.

00:36:59   - So to address your, what I think is the most egregious

00:37:02   icon taking up space on your home screen,

00:37:04   which is the WWDC one.

00:37:06   One of the big advantages of having a partially

00:37:09   or completely empty bottom row on your home screen

00:37:12   is that you can then place temporary use icons

00:37:15   in that bottom row.

00:37:16   - Yep.

00:37:17   - So like whenever I go to a conference or anything,

00:37:19   I always put conference related apps in the bottom row.

00:37:23   Whenever I'm going on a trip,

00:37:24   if there's like travel related apps for the trip

00:37:27   I'm going on, I'll put those in the bottom row.

00:37:28   - Oh, I don't like that idea.

00:37:31   I'm not running a boarding house here.

00:37:32   You don't have a temporary room for Rogers to come in.

00:37:35   No, I'm going to eventually get my home screen

00:37:38   to the way I like it.

00:37:39   It will settle down.

00:37:40   I had many, many years to hone my,

00:37:42   because the iPod Touch never changed.

00:37:43   I have many years to get that form factor right.

00:37:47   I'll settle it down.

00:37:48   I mean, I don't know.

00:37:49   Like really at this point, the home screen is so damn big

00:37:52   that it just seems like there's just not enough icons

00:37:55   that I care about enough to be there.

00:37:57   I guess, you know, it's really just that little row of three,

00:38:00   You know, I guess instapaper overcast Twitter epic letterpress the one game. I still play a lot

00:38:05   And I guess Instagram like that's and then everything else is just like man

00:38:10   I guess Safari and I guess and people are asking why I have videos and music in the dock videos

00:38:14   Occasionally I do watch I have a bunch of little like old TV shows and anime things and movies and stuff in there

00:38:20   I you know

00:38:21   Occasionally I do watch things like that or more likely open something for the kids so they can look at or whatever

00:38:27   Music I don't use either but it the lies out there because it's like it's in the dock

00:38:30   It's the official like the dock. I don't think is a great place

00:38:34   I never thought the dock was at a great place like people that I'll put your most important things a dock that way they'll always

00:38:38   Be there. I don't think it's good for thumb reaching. You know what I mean? Yeah, it used to be better for sure

00:38:42   So I never thought it was good

00:38:44   I always thought basically like overcast is essentially got the prime spot here overcast. So what I do every day

00:38:49   I wasn't the podcast in the car, you know overcast is the first thing, you know, I want to order Vic

00:38:53   I launch overcast.

00:38:54   So they were both like in the hotspots, right?

00:38:57   - And then you got Safari, Gmail messages.

00:38:59   That's probably good too.

00:39:00   - Right, but I keep missing them.

00:39:00   I keep going to their old spots.

00:39:02   So I really need to, and you know, messages, I don't know.

00:39:05   I'll figure it out eventually.

00:39:06   And I don't like how it looks either.

00:39:08   Aesthetically, it's kind of gross.

00:39:10   It's got problems.

00:39:12   - When we had your home screen on the topic list,

00:39:14   I never imagined we'd get this much enjoyment out of it.

00:39:17   - I think my home screen on topic list was dumb

00:39:19   and everyone who hates this topic, I agree with you.

00:39:21   (laughing)

00:39:24   - It's funny because the only reason

00:39:26   I even downloaded homescreen.is

00:39:28   is because we were talking about it.

00:39:30   Like I thought it was a little bit silly.

00:39:32   I mean, it's mildly intriguing to see

00:39:34   what somebody puts on their home screen,

00:39:36   but I don't know, it was like one of those silly fads

00:39:39   that just flew by Twitter

00:39:41   and I was seeing thousands of home screens,

00:39:45   but I don't know, seeing it how unbelievably bad you are

00:39:49   at managing your own home screen

00:39:50   does make me feel better about myself a little bit.

00:39:52   - My home screen looks better than both of yours though.

00:39:54   Marcos is a ghost town.

00:39:55   It's like, just he's got the dot on Instapaper

00:40:01   which truncates the name.

00:40:03   That's just, I mean, the dot is bad enough

00:40:05   but then having the dot actually push the name out

00:40:07   like the blue dot does sometimes,

00:40:08   that's in your home screen.

00:40:09   You gotta look at that all day.

00:40:11   And then the Instagram is screwing up your home screen too.

00:40:15   'Cause look at all the other nice iOS 70 style icons

00:40:17   and all of a sudden Instagram's there saying,

00:40:19   "Hey, look at me, I'm from iOS 6."

00:40:21   No good.

00:40:21   Casey's looks like an explosion of bad clip art.

00:40:26   (laughing)

00:40:28   Gift wrap is truncated with a red dot.

00:40:31   I don't like the icon.

00:40:32   Baby Connect has it, has it the icon,

00:40:35   exactly the icon you would think Baby Connect had.

00:40:37   ESPN Football One is like,

00:40:38   "We just took our logo and shrunk it down."

00:40:40   That's an icon, right guys?

00:40:41   Moneywell's not too hot looking.

00:40:44   Fast text does not have feet.

00:40:45   And he's got three folders on his front page.

00:40:48   - Three folders, that is three folders, but an empty row.

00:40:51   I need these things to be two taps away at all times,

00:40:54   but I'm not gonna put anything in the bottom row.

00:40:56   If I use fantastic, I did research.

00:40:58   Does anybody know if I tried searching the app store

00:41:01   and this was futile.

00:41:02   I went to read all the stupid descriptions

00:41:03   after disclosing them.

00:41:04   I was looking for a calendar app

00:41:06   that would show me in my Google calendar.

00:41:08   Does that not exist?

00:41:09   - Does Google not have one?

00:41:11   - No, no, no, slow down.

00:41:12   If Google, if your Google account is one of the

00:41:15   official accounts in your phone.

00:41:18   Is that the only way to do it?

00:41:19   - I believe that's right.

00:41:20   - 'Cause I don't wanna do that.

00:41:22   I was just hoping, like there's a Gmail app

00:41:24   that just says I'm an app

00:41:25   and I will just connect you to Gmail.

00:41:26   It's mostly a web view anyway, whatever.

00:41:28   Like I'm not saying it's like native versus web,

00:41:30   but I figured, I was looking at, you know,

00:41:32   Calendars 5 or Fantastic Cal

00:41:33   or many of the other much better calendar apps

00:41:35   that maybe I have a fighting chance of actually using

00:41:38   if they would connect directly to my Google Calendar

00:41:40   without having me add it as a calendar thing

00:41:42   and, you know, in my iCloud account.

00:41:45   Someone says Sunrise will do it.

00:41:46   I saw a couple in there.

00:41:48   Truth is I really don't look at my calendar on my phone,

00:41:50   so I don't know, maybe.

00:41:51   - So why are you looking for an app?

00:41:52   - Yes, seriously.

00:41:53   - Because I figured now maybe like I'll be on the phone

00:41:56   with somebody and wanna look at a calendar thing

00:41:58   at the same time.

00:41:59   I don't know.

00:42:00   I'm just trying to figure out how my usage might change

00:42:03   now that I have a net connection everywhere instead of,

00:42:06   because previously, I would never need to do that

00:42:09   because I'd be in my house with Wi-Fi or at work at Wi-Fi.

00:42:12   It usually means I'm near my computer

00:42:13   and I can look at Google Calendar

00:42:15   the big, you know, the web version, which is what I use.

00:42:17   - Oh, this is amazing.

00:42:18   See, I think one of the reasons why,

00:42:21   like this does seem stupid, I agree.

00:42:24   A whole service devoted to sharing your home screen

00:42:27   that does basically nothing else, that does sound stupid.

00:42:31   But it's like looking at people's houses.

00:42:33   It's like, you kind of, it's kind of interesting.

00:42:36   You can tell a lot about a person

00:42:37   by what they have on their home screen,

00:42:39   how it's arranged, maybe what their background is.

00:42:42   - Well, you can tell from mine

00:42:42   is this person just got an iPhone.

00:42:44   - That's true, that's very true.

00:42:47   - Like I'm intrigued, Jon, like you have rotation lock on

00:42:50   because I imagine you like to be controlling that factor,

00:42:54   but your battery is not fully charged

00:42:57   and I'm kind of surprised that you let,

00:42:59   and of course your Verizon and WiFi coverage

00:43:01   are both kind of weak,

00:43:02   and so I'm kind of surprised you let that out.

00:43:04   - So my battery is plenty charged,

00:43:06   like a brand new iPhone 6,

00:43:07   that is a long battery life there.

00:43:09   The Verizon signal, the cell signal in my house is terrible.

00:43:12   - Verizon is the best in terms of signal.

00:43:15   Some carriers can't even get a signal inside my house.

00:43:17   This is why I have a Verizon iPhone.

00:43:19   So two bars, I'll take it.

00:43:22   - Casey, I just noticed on your home screen

00:43:24   that the wonderful new fast text icon

00:43:27   is not being recognized

00:43:29   because that version is not yet in the app store.

00:43:32   You should really fix that problem.

00:43:33   - Oh, I know, don't even get me started.

00:43:35   - At least it doesn't have a dot next to it.

00:43:37   (laughing)

00:43:39   - Do they really need the truncate for the dot end?

00:43:40   I don't like that with the blue dot too, but like yeah

00:43:43   You don't think that like there's plenty of room for the full name and the dot it should know

00:43:47   It should do a better job of like if there is room like next to day one the gif wrap thing like this room you

00:43:52   Could show the rest of gift wrap shift that dot over it wouldn't be into the world

00:43:55   Well, and they also could just put the dot on the corner of the icon the way badges are done

00:44:00   Like maybe maybe put on the left corner so that it doesn't hide the badge

00:44:04   I don't understand who that badge is for like for people who have beta apps, but don't know they have beta apps

00:44:10   Do you forget which one is the beta?

00:44:11   I don't know.

00:44:12   It doesn't make any sense.

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00:46:49   - All right.

00:46:50   I'd like to yell at Marco for a little bit.

00:46:55   - Gladly.

00:46:56   - Where's my freaking Overcast Mac app?

00:46:58   - Wait, wait, wait, before you yell at him about that,

00:47:00   why do you want a Mac Overcast app?

00:47:03   Okay, so the reason I want a Mac Overcast app is because I actually do a lot of my podcast

00:47:10   listening at work, and if I'm going to do that, I'd like to do it on my Mac.

00:47:16   Because it seems silly in my personal opinion to have your phone or your iPad out just for

00:47:22   the purposes of listening to a podcast when I have a perfectly functioning computer right

00:47:28   in front of me that would do the trick.

00:47:31   And yes I am aware that Overcast has a web app and yes it is very good.

00:47:36   No it's not.

00:47:37   Well I mean it's pretty good.

00:47:38   No it's really not.

00:47:39   It's pretty terrible.

00:47:40   Go ahead.

00:47:41   Either way, but now that I've become addicted to smart speed, I must have that in my life

00:47:48   and I can't get that through HTML5 without you going away for 10 years and reinventing

00:47:54   half of the internet.

00:47:56   So I want to know where my Overcast for Mac app is please.

00:48:01   Okay, so first of all, there's a couple of cases to be made here, a couple of different options to take.

00:48:08   Obviously, I should make the web app better. That is point number one.

00:48:15   And if the web app is better, it will remove a lot of the reasons why people might want a Mac app.

00:48:20   Not all of them, granted, and not some big ones. But it will remove many of the reasons why people would want a Mac app.

00:48:28   It would also be a heck of a lot easier in many regards than making a whole Mac app

00:48:32   Especially because I've never made a Mac app before so I don't know

00:48:35   anything about like all of app kits intricacies and weirdnesses and limitations and and

00:48:41   So I would have to learn all that from almost from scratch like, you know

00:48:45   So some iOS knowledge would carry over but not a whole lot. I thought you did write a Mac app

00:48:50   Okay, I should clarify. I wrote one Mac app the tumblr backup app

00:48:55   It was terrible.

00:48:57   It was very clearly my first Mac app ever written

00:49:00   and I spent maybe two hours on it

00:49:02   and most of the actual work was done in a PHP file

00:49:05   that was embedded in the app itself.

00:49:07   - Are you really serious?

00:49:08   - I am totally serious.

00:49:09   - Oh my God, you are the worst.

00:49:11   - Because it was like connecting to the Tumblr API

00:49:13   and making a bunch of downloads

00:49:15   and making all these directories and everything

00:49:16   and I had actually already written the PHP script

00:49:20   just for my own personal use to back up my own Tumble log

00:49:23   And I asked David one day, "Hey, can I make a backup app?

00:49:27   "'Cause people keep asking me about this.

00:49:29   "And let me just make a Mac app."

00:49:31   And so I just made a wrapper that wrapped,

00:49:34   executing that PHP script, and that's it.

00:49:38   Anyway, so I basically have no Mac knowledge.

00:49:43   - So that's the reason?

00:49:45   - Well, that's a reason.

00:49:46   So another reason is, how do I put this gently?

00:49:50   - You don't, you just let it rip.

00:49:52   Look at other apps that are made by individual developers

00:49:56   in the podcast, RSS kind of space.

00:50:00   Look at other apps that started out on iPhone,

00:50:04   then went to iPad, and then went to Mac.

00:50:07   And then for many of them, development basically stopped.

00:50:11   And so I see this in a few apps that I used to use

00:50:15   and it kinda scares me because clearly,

00:50:18   I mean, I don't know what anyone's story is.

00:50:21   I haven't looked into any of these in detail,

00:50:22   but it sure looks like when you go to that third platform,

00:50:26   especially 'cause the Mac is so different from iOS,

00:50:28   it sure looks like a lot of developers just get stuck

00:50:30   because there's just so much to keep up with at that point.

00:50:33   Then you have these three different,

00:50:35   possibly these three different code bases,

00:50:38   these, all this different platforms moving

00:50:40   at different times.

00:50:42   As the platforms advance,

00:50:43   you have to try to keep up with them,

00:50:45   and it just seems like the Mac app is like,

00:50:48   is like the kiss of death for indie developers

00:50:51   who started on iOS.

00:50:52   It's like, "I'm gonna make a Mac app."

00:50:53   And then inevitably, it doesn't seem like

00:50:55   they sell very well.

00:50:56   I never heard of anybody saying they made a ton of money

00:50:58   off their Mac apps after they came from iOS first.

00:51:01   I mean, obviously, if you're making productivity,

00:51:05   professional software, that's a different story.

00:51:06   But in this kind of space,

00:51:08   I haven't heard of great success there.

00:51:11   So it just, ooh, I'm very scared of it

00:51:15   basically bogging me down, weighing me down,

00:51:18   and making it very hard for me to keep everything updated.

00:51:21   So that's a major point.

00:51:23   I also, I don't think Overcast is really making

00:51:26   enough money where it makes sense for me

00:51:28   to pay somebody else to make it.

00:51:30   And I don't think it would,

00:51:32   I don't think it would bring in enough money itself, really,

00:51:37   to justify the expense of somebody else making it for me.

00:51:40   So I think it's the kind of thing where if it's going to,

00:51:41   it's just I'm gonna have to make it.

00:51:43   And so again, that just scares me from a total engineering

00:51:47   bandwidth perspective that is scary.

00:51:50   The other thing is how much of a gain am I getting

00:51:56   from the web app as a result?

00:51:58   So to me the big things are smart speed

00:52:00   and offline file saving.

00:52:02   And those are both very big things.

00:52:04   And there's a few other things like for instance,

00:52:07   I have, I don't think I ever said this publicly before,

00:52:11   but I have a file upload feature.

00:52:14   And it's only enabled on my account right now.

00:52:16   And I developed this a long time ago.

00:52:19   It's probably been there for a year.

00:52:20   And I was initially going to launch with file upload support

00:52:24   where you have a special folder,

00:52:26   it's just like your inbox or your uploads,

00:52:28   and you upload files to it

00:52:29   and then you can play arbitrary files.

00:52:32   This is useful for me

00:52:33   because I record the Howard Stern show

00:52:34   and then I can play the Howard Stern files

00:52:36   on my podcast app, which is very convenient.

00:52:38   I built, the whole feature is there,

00:52:40   it's built out on S3.

00:52:42   And I was a little scared with business concerns

00:52:44   and things like piracy concerns and takedown notices.

00:52:47   If I don't have to be responsible for these files,

00:52:51   for both the costs and liabilities

00:52:52   of hosting people's uploads, that would certainly be ideal.

00:52:56   At WWDC, when iCloud Drive was announced,

00:52:59   I thought, you know what, I'm just not gonna release

00:53:02   that S3 uploads feature that I made.

00:53:04   Ideally, I'm going to rebuild this feature

00:53:07   using iCloud Drive and very easily also support Dropbox,

00:53:10   like if it's easy to also support anything else

00:53:13   that uses the document picker, which it probably is,

00:53:15   I could do stuff like that.

00:53:16   So that is a way better feature.

00:53:18   That being said, that will never work in the web app.

00:53:22   So there are certain things like that,

00:53:25   like handoff I can do from the web,

00:53:27   a lot of people don't know this,

00:53:28   you can do handoff from web apps to iOS apps and vice versa.

00:53:32   So I could do a handoff playback,

00:53:34   but it isn't as good or as easy from the web

00:53:36   and there's a few little gotchas.

00:53:38   The web, I'm always facing issues of different browsers

00:53:42   being a pain in the butt about something.

00:53:45   One of the biggest problems actually,

00:53:48   and this could end up being really problematic

00:53:51   depending on the direction that web browsers go,

00:53:53   is mixed content security.

00:53:56   Right now it's considered bad for SSL

00:54:00   if you have a page that's served over HTTPS

00:54:03   that includes any assets that are not served over HTTPS.

00:54:07   The problem is Overcast does not host the podcast files

00:54:10   because that would be insanely expensive

00:54:12   and bring a lot of other problems like lack of control,

00:54:15   lack of download stats for the publishers,

00:54:17   things like that.

00:54:18   So most podcast files are hosted on regular HTTP links

00:54:23   that are not HTTPS because who cares?

00:54:26   So my web interface is all secure.

00:54:31   So almost every Overcast player page

00:54:33   has this mixed security problem.

00:54:36   And that prevents a lot of things.

00:54:38   For example, it prevents me from ever making

00:54:40   a Twitter card that includes the audio player feature,

00:54:44   which is really annoying,

00:54:45   'cause I would love for Overcast's Twitter links

00:54:47   to have a built-in player and a card,

00:54:49   if anybody uses the card interface, I don't know,

00:54:51   I don't know how Twitter works.

00:54:52   (laughing)

00:54:53   But Twitter cards are required to be all HTTPS,

00:54:56   including all the resources they load,

00:54:58   including the media they load.

00:55:00   So I can't do that unless I proxy all those files,

00:55:03   which again is very expensive

00:55:04   and has a lot of problems associated with it.

00:55:07   I'm also completely held at the whims of browser developers.

00:55:12   Let's say Chrome decides, oh, we think something is bad

00:55:17   and we're gonna stop supporting it next week

00:55:19   because of security or whatever.

00:55:21   If that something is some kind of behavioral detail

00:55:24   of the HTML5 audio player or something like that,

00:55:27   I'm just screwed.

00:55:28   So there's all these problems with the web app approach that it's not worth killing

00:55:35   the web app, it's not worth having overcast on Mac be the only way you could play overcast

00:55:42   files on a Mac, but there's a lot of reasons why a web app might not be the, probably shouldn't

00:55:48   be the only way you can play things.

00:55:50   That makes sense?

00:55:51   Like, relying on a web app for the kind of functionality I do, I mean if you're making

00:55:57   something else, that's a whole different story.

00:55:59   But if you're relying on serving

00:56:01   mixed security level resources

00:56:03   with this cutting edge HTML5 audio player,

00:56:07   and if I would try to build in things like effects

00:56:10   and speeds into it, which some of that can be done

00:56:13   with some of the new audio APIs,

00:56:14   smart speeds still can't, which is unfortunate,

00:56:18   although it would have to be written in JavaScript,

00:56:19   so it might be horribly slow. (laughs)

00:56:22   Anyway, the point is, I'm relying on a lot of

00:56:25   little edge cases and cutting edge features of web browsers

00:56:28   to make this work at all.

00:56:30   And that's not a good place to be in

00:56:31   because that could change at any time.

00:56:33   I also just hate web development.

00:56:35   I'm so sick of it from having done so much of it

00:56:39   in the last 15 years or whatever.

00:56:41   I'm so tired of web development.

00:56:43   The idea of making a really amazing JavaScript player

00:56:49   for the web does not interest me very much.

00:56:51   I will eventually have to make it better.

00:56:53   And I was actually gonna start doing that today,

00:56:55   but I got sidetracked, but I haven't really answered

00:56:57   your question at all, but that should give you some idea

00:57:00   of where my head is on this.

00:57:01   I have not started a Mac app,

00:57:03   and I still am not sure if I'm going to make one.

00:57:06   - Why don't you do just like a little player app

00:57:08   for the Mac that, you know, handoff or otherwise,

00:57:10   you're not gonna like make a Mac version

00:57:13   of the entire Overcast app where you can see

00:57:15   all your playlists and edit them or whatever,

00:57:16   just a simple way to say, somehow you will find your way

00:57:21   to the thing that you want to play somewhere else,

00:57:23   and you will say, "Play this on my Mac,"

00:57:25   And that will let KC use his play/pause button

00:57:27   on his keyboard to, you know, like just a playback app.

00:57:32   And I guess you'd have to either hand off from the web,

00:57:34   hand off from the iOS app or something similar.

00:57:37   But really what you'd be handing off is just the URL.

00:57:39   And then once you're into the Mac app,

00:57:40   it's like play this now.

00:57:41   And it would, I guess, have to show a title

00:57:43   and get some information and maybe show some artwork.

00:57:45   But it would save you from having to do the full UI.

00:57:49   And it would so clearly just be like a player.

00:57:53   - Yeah, but at that point, why half-ass it?

00:57:57   If that's all I'm gonna do, I mean, I don't know.

00:58:01   I guess anything's better than the current web app.

00:58:03   - I mean, what you can do then is on the web app,

00:58:06   which you'd be like, well, the web app might work for you,

00:58:08   but if it doesn't work for you, click this button

00:58:09   and it'll open whatever, X Overcast, whatever URL

00:58:13   that will launch the Overcast app when it's installed

00:58:15   and with that URL, then you'll be off.

00:58:18   I don't know, it would solve Casey's problem anyway.

00:58:21   He doesn't need the full Overcast app on his Mac.

00:58:23   He just wants to be able to play without it independently.

00:58:27   And I guess maybe it would be,

00:58:29   what would it do when it got to the end of the track?

00:58:31   Would you send it to the entire playlist

00:58:32   full of URLs and metadata?

00:58:34   Would it be slaved, kind of like your Mac is the watch

00:58:38   and the phone is running overcast

00:58:40   and it would be slaved out to communicating

00:58:42   across a hand-off initiated connection

00:58:44   to feed it what the next track is?

00:58:46   I don't know.

00:58:47   - Well, but I mean, ultimately,

00:58:49   all of my syncing code, that's all Mac compatible.

00:58:52   All of the audio processing code, that's all Mac compatible.

00:58:56   All I'm really talking about is I'd have to basically

00:58:57   write the entire UI from scratch.

00:58:59   But the UI doesn't necessarily have to be that complicated.

00:59:03   On iOS it's complicated because they do a lot

00:59:04   of customization, like a lot of appearance customization

00:59:07   to give my fonts and my styles and everything.

00:59:11   On OS X, maybe I don't need to do that.

00:59:13   I don't know, I haven't looked into any of this.

00:59:16   - You gotta do what Icon Factory did

00:59:18   and port UIKit to the Mac first, right?

00:59:21   - That's a pretty big prerequisite.

00:59:22   I'm not sure I'm gonna do that.

00:59:24   - They already did it for you, it's done.

00:59:25   - I thought they abandoned it 'cause nobody was interested.

00:59:28   - I know, probably, 'cause it's just a ridiculous prerequisite

00:59:31   to running a Mac app.

00:59:32   Like you think you're gonna save time,

00:59:33   but it's like, what, do we sign ourselves up

00:59:35   to maintain now?

00:59:36   - Right, exactly.

00:59:38   So anyway, that's why I don't have one yet,

00:59:40   and I might have one in the future.

00:59:43   There's a bunch of other stuff I wanna do first,

00:59:44   like, and this is the problem too, it's like,

00:59:46   do I work on a Mac app,

00:59:48   which will probably be a six month distraction, at least,

00:59:51   Or do I spend that six months making the iOS app even better?

00:59:56   Do I tackle some big problems like streaming,

00:59:59   maybe like chapter support, things people ask for.

01:00:02   Chapter support I'm less keen on

01:00:04   'cause there's just so little demand for it,

01:00:06   but the people who do demand it are very loud,

01:00:09   but there's very, very little demand for it in reality.

01:00:12   And very few podcasts even have chapters.

01:00:15   So that's kind of low on the list,

01:00:16   but like streaming, that's a big deal.

01:00:18   That's something that I really need to do

01:00:20   because that makes some other nice features

01:00:24   better and possible.

01:00:26   So for instance, let's say you have,

01:00:28   you're playing something on your phone

01:00:31   and I implement Handoff and you hand it off to a Mac app

01:00:34   or vice versa.

01:00:36   Let's say the app that is receiving the Handoff

01:00:38   has not yet downloaded that file.

01:00:41   If I don't have streaming yet, that sucks

01:00:43   because that means that you handed it off

01:00:45   and then you have to sit there and wait

01:00:47   while that entire file downloads

01:00:48   before you can play any of it.

01:00:50   That's not very good.

01:00:51   And yeah, maybe I can do some kind of weird

01:00:53   little Lansing thing where I try to send it quickly,

01:00:54   but that's also hacky and not great.

01:00:57   Ideally, it would have streaming so that you can click

01:00:59   any overcast share link, any handoff link,

01:01:03   anything like that, and just start playing the file

01:01:05   if you have an internet connection,

01:01:06   which if you're receiving handoff stuff

01:01:08   and browsing Twitter, you probably do.

01:01:09   So just start playing the file.

01:01:12   Just start wherever, start at a certain timestamp,

01:01:14   even like if you start in the middle, that's fantastic.

01:01:16   if I can do that, that's very hard to do,

01:01:19   but that's what I actually want.

01:01:24   And there's so many features that are kinda being held back

01:01:26   by streaming, that's why streaming is the thing

01:01:29   I'm tackling next, I kinda wrote some of it

01:01:31   and then got sidetracked with other problems.

01:01:34   And there's always gonna be something like that.

01:01:36   Next year when iOS 9 comes out, maybe iOS 9 adds

01:01:39   more things I want to do.

01:01:41   When am I ever gonna have time to make an entire Mac app?

01:01:44   This is what worries me.

01:01:45   And when I look around and I see like the kiss of death of the Mac apps from all these other indie developers,

01:01:49   it doesn't look like a good idea to do.

01:01:52   I am intellectually, I'm interested in doing it. I would like to do it, but it doesn't look like I should do it.

01:01:59   See, and I think the problem that you're running into is you have Marko Myopia, or Myopia, whatever.

01:02:05   Anyway, the point is, because this is not something that you necessarily feel is missing from your world,

01:02:12   it's never gonna happen.

01:02:14   And that makes sense.

01:02:16   I mean, I don't fault you for that,

01:02:18   but like would the iPad app have happened

01:02:21   if you didn't kind of accidentally make it a few weeks ago?

01:02:25   Like what was the genesis of the iPad app, remind me?

01:02:28   - There was a bug with using storyboards as launch images

01:02:30   that would enable iPad sizing and iPad mode on apps

01:02:35   that were not actually iPad apps.

01:02:36   - Right, and do you think you would have still

01:02:39   had an iPad app version if it wasn't for that?

01:02:44   - Probably not yet.

01:02:45   - Exactly, okay.

01:02:46   So that's what I'm kind of driving at is

01:02:49   the iPad thing didn't really scratch an itch for you.

01:02:52   And so the only reason it exists today is because,

01:02:54   well, it kind of accidentally farted its way into existence.

01:02:58   And I think the Mac app, again,

01:03:00   because it doesn't really scratch an itch for you,

01:03:03   it's always going to be a lower priority.

01:03:06   That makes sense because if it doesn't really scratch

01:03:08   an itch, you're not gonna care as much as you would

01:03:10   if it was scratching an itch.

01:03:12   - I don't think it's so much about what he wants.

01:03:13   He's trying to address a market,

01:03:15   he doesn't feel like there's market demand.

01:03:17   As in, correct me if I'm wrong, Mark,

01:03:19   but it's not just like, oh, well,

01:03:20   I wouldn't use it there for a while.

01:03:21   If 50% of your users were clamoring for a Mac app,

01:03:24   you'd be considering it much more strongly,

01:03:26   whether you used it or not.

01:03:27   - Yeah, so it's complicated.

01:03:29   So first of all, there is certainly the calculus

01:03:33   that goes on about, okay, well,

01:03:34   how many people are likely to even want this and use this,

01:03:37   you know, is there any money in it, is there going to be any meaningful user growth as

01:03:40   a result of it, and you compare that versus how much time it takes to implement. The iPad

01:03:45   version I don't think is doing much for me long term because I just don't think,

01:03:50   like I think podcasts, most people who listen to podcasts probably listen on their phone.

01:03:53   I'm pretty sure other people have discovered this information already. I don't think

01:03:57   this is an outrageous guess. The iPad app was only worth doing because it was relatively

01:04:02   easy and is not going to impose a massive ongoing cost of maintenance with things changing.

01:04:08   The way I did it was fairly low effort.

01:04:10   I did an adaptive UI with a split view.

01:04:13   So I'm doing a lot of Apple stock UI stuff.

01:04:17   It is never going to win me a design award or anything like that.

01:04:20   No one is ever going to look at the Overcast iPad app and say, "This is an amazing iPad

01:04:24   app.

01:04:25   This really shows off what the iPad can do."

01:04:26   It doesn't.

01:04:27   It's not.

01:04:28   why I made it and there isn't enough of a market

01:04:31   on the iPad as far as I know to justify doing that

01:04:34   for this type of app.

01:04:36   So I did what made sense because basically

01:04:38   it was cheap and easy.

01:04:40   The Mac is a totally different story.

01:04:42   The Mac, I'm guessing the size of the possible audience

01:04:47   of people who would play podcasts on a Mac with this app

01:04:51   is probably about the same size as the iPad audience.

01:04:55   But it's way harder to actually get there.

01:04:58   It takes way more effort because I have to rewrite

01:05:00   the entire UI from scratch and maintain that over time

01:05:04   and deal with, you know, like, it's so nice

01:05:08   being able to like, you know, listen to core intuition

01:05:10   and hear Daniel Jocko and Matt and Rhys talk about

01:05:12   like how terrible the Mac App Store is being some week

01:05:15   with some terrible signing bug or something like that.

01:05:18   It's so nice to listen to that and know that I don't have

01:05:20   to worry about that because I don't have anything

01:05:21   in the Mac App Store.

01:05:23   And the fact is if I did this, I'd be in the Mac App Store

01:05:24   'cause I'd wanna use things like Handoff

01:05:27   and iCloud syncing and stuff like that,

01:05:29   like for certain things, make things better.

01:05:31   So like it's, going to the Mac would be

01:05:36   a very expensive proposition in time

01:05:39   and in ongoing maintenance.

01:05:40   And I'm very doubtful that enough of a market there exists

01:05:45   to make that worth the loss.

01:05:47   - Yeah, I understand it.

01:05:50   I don't know, it's hard to say because I am,

01:05:53   I'm no more convinced that I am right

01:05:56   and also that you are wrong.

01:05:58   You know, I know I want a Mac app really badly,

01:06:03   but for all I know, I'm the only one.

01:06:04   So it very well could be that I'm steering you

01:06:08   directly into financial ruin, you know,

01:06:11   figuratively speaking.

01:06:12   But man, I feel like it would be a relatively good

01:06:16   differentiator as well because something,

01:06:19   what has a Mac app?

01:06:19   Does Downcast have a Mac app?

01:06:22   - They definitely do.

01:06:23   I don't know if Instacast does, I'm not sure.

01:06:25   - Downcast definitely does, I think Instacast might.

01:06:28   - Yeah, I think Instacast does.

01:06:29   - And Underscore released a pod Wrangler Mac app,

01:06:33   I thought, in a beta capacity,

01:06:36   and it was very much what you're describing visually.

01:06:38   I mean, it was super simple, very stock,

01:06:42   nothing too exciting, but it was functional

01:06:46   and it got the job done, and I miss having that quite a bit.

01:06:49   And I'm not saying I'm the only one,

01:06:51   but I may be the only one at the same time.

01:06:55   Now Marco, how do you listen to podcasts as you're,

01:06:58   you're listening to fish as you work?

01:06:59   - Yeah, I'm listening to music as I work.

01:07:01   It's often fish.

01:07:02   - When you're in front of the computer,

01:07:03   my point is you're not listening to podcasts

01:07:06   most of the time.

01:07:07   - Right, I almost never listen to podcasts on my Mac

01:07:11   or on any Mac, which is one of the reasons why

01:07:13   I have not been motivated to either make this

01:07:15   or make the web app better.

01:07:16   - Right, that's exactly my point earlier.

01:07:18   - Yeah, yeah, you're exactly right.

01:07:19   I mean, that is probably the biggest reason, honestly.

01:07:22   It isn't about market demand.

01:07:24   The biggest reason is that I don't care.

01:07:27   There are features I would like to enable

01:07:29   that would be cool, like I mentioned

01:07:31   some of the cool handoff stuff.

01:07:33   I would love to do stuff like that in a Mac app,

01:07:35   but ultimately I would very rarely use my own Mac app

01:07:39   as far as I can predict,

01:07:42   'cause I don't listen to podcasts while I work,

01:07:43   'cause I can't concentrate on both.

01:07:46   And I know a lot of people are like that.

01:07:48   - Oh yeah.

01:07:49   Now, let me ask you honestly,

01:07:51   Do you have any interest in people tweeting at you

01:07:54   or anything like that if they are interested in the Mac app

01:07:57   or is that not going to change your mind?

01:08:00   - I mean, people have tweeted at me about that before.

01:08:03   Whenever I bring up the topic,

01:08:05   whenever someone else does,

01:08:06   I always get people saying, well, I'd buy it.

01:08:08   And that is nice to hear.

01:08:09   That does help, but it doesn't really indicate to me

01:08:13   how much of a market there is.

01:08:14   It just says the market is probably greater than zero.

01:08:17   But that doesn't really mean,

01:08:19   hearing from a handful of people on Twitter

01:08:22   does not really tell me,

01:08:24   this will probably bring in 50 grand a year or something.

01:08:28   Like it doesn't tell me something I need to know

01:08:31   or this might bring in 20,000 new users a year

01:08:35   or it doesn't tell me any of that information.

01:08:39   - It's gotta charge 10 bucks for it.

01:08:41   9.99.

01:08:43   - Well that's the other thing.

01:08:44   So maybe I could make more money with it.

01:08:47   It would be--

01:08:48   - 'Cause it's bigger on the screen

01:08:49   and the bigger it is than square inches,

01:08:51   the more money you can charge.

01:08:52   That seems to be the logic that's in people's heads.

01:08:55   - Sure, yeah.

01:08:55   However, if I'm gonna charge good money for it,

01:08:58   and I probably wouldn't make it

01:09:00   if I wasn't gonna charge another five or 10 bucks

01:09:03   for the unlock for the things like smart speeds and stuff,

01:09:05   but if I'm gonna charge good money for an app,

01:09:06   I want it to be really good.

01:09:07   I don't wanna charge money for a terrible app.

01:09:10   And so, again, this is going back to the half-assed thing.

01:09:14   I'm not gonna make a terrible Mac app

01:09:16   that has almost no features,

01:09:18   with a $5 in-app purchase to unlock,

01:09:20   it's almost no features.

01:09:21   Like that's not a very,

01:09:23   that's just not, I don't wanna do that.

01:09:25   I would feel bad doing that.

01:09:26   But I'm also not gonna make one

01:09:28   that I don't feel good charging for

01:09:31   and just release it for free and have that be it.

01:09:34   So if I'm gonna do it,

01:09:37   I wanna do at least a reasonable job on it.

01:09:40   It doesn't have to be like amazing.

01:09:41   Again, it could be the same approach as the iPad

01:09:44   where it's like I'm going for pure utility value,

01:09:46   doesn't need to be fancy with the UI,

01:09:48   will never win an Apple Design Award or anything like that.

01:09:52   Most people would never even notice or care it's there,

01:09:55   would never get any recognition whatsoever.

01:09:56   But I would at least want it to be functional

01:10:01   and to have the basic features of,

01:10:04   the iPhone app only has three levels of navigation.

01:10:07   I mean, it's not like it's a very complicated UI.

01:10:11   So I don't know, maybe I could do a basic

01:10:12   little three-pane kind of thing.

01:10:14   I don't know.

01:10:15   - It makes sense.

01:10:16   I just don't want it to make sense.

01:10:17   I want you to say, you know what?

01:10:18   That's a brilliant idea.

01:10:20   I will do it tonight.

01:10:21   - No, I mean, honestly, I would like to do it

01:10:23   because I'm curious about Mac development.

01:10:25   This is one of the reasons why,

01:10:27   every time there's a new OS X release,

01:10:29   I hope for some kind of bringing over of something

01:10:33   from UIKit into AppKit,

01:10:37   or some kind of replacement to AppKit

01:10:39   that is more like UIKit.

01:10:41   'cause there are so many pretty fundamental differences

01:10:44   between the two, between the way they work,

01:10:46   that, and I don't know how hard it's gonna be yet,

01:10:50   I've never tried really,

01:10:51   but I know it's gonna be really irritating

01:10:53   and it's gonna slow me down a lot

01:10:55   as I learn all these flaws and limitations of AppKit

01:10:57   and all these little weird behavioral details

01:10:59   and differences.

01:11:00   And I think it would,

01:11:02   not only it would enable some of my laziness,

01:11:05   but I think it would serve Apple well

01:11:07   to reduce that barrier between the two,

01:11:09   to make development for the Mac

01:11:12   more like development for iOS.

01:11:13   And I'm not saying bring over all of UIKit,

01:11:16   'cause all of UIKit doesn't make sense on the Mac,

01:11:18   and there's a lot of things that the Mac does

01:11:20   that don't make sense in UIKit.

01:11:21   So I'm not saying they have to be unified,

01:11:23   but to at least be closer together,

01:11:26   to be more similar than they are now,

01:11:28   because right now, like the prospect of developing

01:11:33   a Mac app for an iOS developer has all this expense

01:11:37   and all this risk I was just talking about.

01:11:39   And if Apple can do anything to reduce that barrier,

01:11:42   to reduce the expense, to make it less overall

01:11:47   additional time to maintain a Mac app,

01:11:49   then there will be more Mac apps,

01:11:51   and people will be happier with their Macs,

01:11:53   and Apple will make more money on the Mac App Store,

01:11:55   and all of these benefits.

01:11:57   So I really hope they're going in that direction

01:11:58   sometime soon, so maybe I should start a Mac app

01:12:01   so they can then make everything easier a year later.

01:12:03   (laughing)

01:12:05   - Yeah, we'll see.

01:12:06   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.

01:12:08   Overcast for Mac, no.

01:12:10   Thanks a lot for the three sponsors this week.

01:12:12   Studio Neat, Hover, and Backblaze,

01:12:14   and we will see you next week.

01:12:15   (upbeat music)

01:12:18   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:12:20   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:12:23   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:12:26   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:12:29   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:12:31   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:12:33   'Cause it was accidental, it was accidental

01:12:38   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:12:43   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:12:48   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:12:52   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:12:57   ♪ Anti-Marco, Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:13:02   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

01:13:07   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:13:08   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:13:11   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:13:12   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:13:13   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:13:16   - Hey, on a extremely random note,

01:13:21   you know what I think a little sliver of me kinda wants?

01:13:24   - An overcast backup?

01:13:25   - Oh, no, that's more than just a little sliver.

01:13:27   I kind of am intrigued by the Gulf are

01:13:30   The oh the car the Volkswagen Golf at this Gulf. Mm-hmm. I thought he said Gulf - we may have found another hover Oh golf golf

01:13:38   Yeah, I think we did find another hover. That's how they say it in the south

01:13:41   Of here in winter we say golf

01:13:44   fine

01:13:47   What so so tell me what the golf are maybe you're not southern anymore

01:13:52   Maybe you're becoming European because the Americans don't like hot hatches. Oh, I hate hatchbacks

01:13:56   I absolutely hate hatchback. Well, then why you into the golf. I don't know. I don't know. That's the problem

01:14:02   I need an intervention quickly. No, I

01:14:04   Don't like hatchbacks. I don't like hatchbacks either even though on paper

01:14:09   They make a ton of sense because you know, there's just plenty of root

01:14:12   Well plenty ish of room this golf bar looks like it has rubber bands wrapped around its wheels

01:14:16   Like the tires are so low-profile it's like hurt hurting my butt just looking at the picture

01:14:22   (laughing)

01:14:24   - Oh, that's marvelous.

01:14:27   - Maybe that's a concept?

01:14:29   - You definitely could not drive that

01:14:31   in the state of New York.

01:14:33   Our roads are not that good.

01:14:34   - I don't know, I kinda want one.

01:14:35   And I really like that blue, actually,

01:14:37   that they do all the press shots in.

01:14:40   - See, the problem that you'd have with this, I think,

01:14:42   is that while it would be small and fun,

01:14:47   it would most likely be a giant step down

01:14:49   in so many interior amenities and interior qualities

01:14:52   things that I'm not so sure.

01:14:54   I think you might've ruined yourself with your current car

01:14:56   and it's gonna be hard to step down to this.

01:14:58   - I mean, it looks like the inside of a hatchback.

01:15:01   A lot of shiny stuff.

01:15:02   - It's a little shinier, I will give you that,

01:15:04   but it doesn't look that dissimilar from what I've got now.

01:15:07   - What's the deal with flat bottom steering wheels?

01:15:10   - Is that so like you can have your legs crunched up more?

01:15:12   I don't know.

01:15:13   - My theory, and I don't know if this is correct,

01:15:14   someone can correct me,

01:15:15   is that flat bottom steering wheels have their origin

01:15:18   in race cars where they cram the driver

01:15:20   into some little tiny thing and there's not enough room

01:15:22   for a full steering wheel so they had a flat bottom.

01:15:25   And then that wormed its way up into cars

01:15:27   where there's plenty of room just because,

01:15:29   oh, flat bottom steering wheel equals race car.

01:15:31   That may be entirely wrong,

01:15:32   but that's the only theory I can come up with.

01:15:33   Because as far as I can tell, functionally speaking,

01:15:36   I don't see what advantage the flat bottom would give you

01:15:39   because you can already tell what orientation the wheel is

01:15:42   because the spokes, you know,

01:15:43   like if you're looking for, and the lumps,

01:15:45   like there's so many other things that you can tell,

01:15:46   like you don't need a flat side to say,

01:15:48   I can tell what angle I'm at.

01:15:50   You can always tell, like they're not,

01:15:51   It's not a smooth symmetrical wheel.

01:15:53   So I don't understand the flat bottom.

01:15:56   - So I think I kind of want one.

01:15:57   Like not enough that I would get rid of the 335,

01:16:01   but there's something appealing now that I'm a dad

01:16:05   to having a little bit more trunk space

01:16:06   'cause the 335's trunk not big.

01:16:09   - You think this would have more trunk space?

01:16:10   It's a pretty small car.

01:16:12   - You've got one tiny child.

01:16:13   You have plenty of trunk space.

01:16:14   What do you think you're storing?

01:16:16   - Oh no, I don't, I don't know, man.

01:16:17   but when I put the stroller in my trunk,

01:16:21   I'm losing, well, without some seriously creative

01:16:24   Marco level packing, I'm losing a significant amount

01:16:27   of trunk just with the damn stroller.

01:16:29   And the reason we got the stroller we got

01:16:30   was strictly because it folded up as small as it does.

01:16:34   - Well, if you just wait a year,

01:16:36   and then definitely can go in an umbrella type stroller,

01:16:39   which is just so much smaller,

01:16:41   they fold up so much smaller.

01:16:43   And then they're almost the size

01:16:46   like a skinny golf bag, like where you can then put it

01:16:50   long ways either direction and well in your car

01:16:52   you probably can't put it parallel to the car

01:16:54   but you could definitely put it perpendicular to the car

01:16:56   and yeah, fits great.

01:16:59   But yeah, if you're talking about trunk space

01:17:01   this is not going to help you.

01:17:03   Hatchbacks, you know, yes they have wider trunk openings.

01:17:08   - And more vertical space.

01:17:10   - Yeah, vertical space and if you're willing

01:17:11   to fold the seats down you can get, you can replace

01:17:13   most of the interior with effectively trunk space.

01:17:16   But if you have a car seat there,

01:17:18   like you're not folding the seats down,

01:17:19   or at least not both of them,

01:17:21   I would almost guarantee that your current car,

01:17:24   your 3 Series, has overall roughly the same amount

01:17:28   of space as this or slightly more for cargo area.

01:17:32   - Eh, maybe.

01:17:33   - And what you're really, really, I mean,

01:17:34   if you're looking at like larger trunk space,

01:17:36   you're looking at either a hatchback or GT version

01:17:40   of a 3 Series sized car, or you're looking at a larger car,

01:17:43   like a 5 Series or an Accord or something like that.

01:17:45   Like that's, I don't think,

01:17:47   like if you do more trunk space,

01:17:48   this is not the way to get it.

01:17:50   - I mean, I don't even know what I need trunk space wise.

01:17:52   I just feel like it will probably become an issue

01:17:55   sooner rather than later.

01:17:56   - Only if you let it.

01:17:58   - Yeah, fair point.

01:17:59   The other thing I was curious to hear your two cents

01:18:01   on the both of you is,

01:18:03   Erin has no desire for a new car.

01:18:06   She has a 2007 Mazda 6, which is,

01:18:09   I think as nicely appointed as it came at the time,

01:18:12   if memory serves, and she loves that car.

01:18:16   I would probably get murdered if I ever tried

01:18:19   to take it away from her, but if we were to get her

01:18:23   something different, what would we get her?

01:18:26   The obvious answer to me is X5, you know, used X5.

01:18:30   The bonus answer, which is a little more unique,

01:18:34   but probably a terrible idea, is an SRT-8 Grand Cherokee,

01:18:37   which is crazy fast and crazy fun,

01:18:40   but she would be stopping at a gas station every 10 miles.

01:18:44   - What's happening to you that you're considering

01:18:45   quote unquote high performance SUVs?

01:18:49   - Why not?

01:18:50   - What's going on?

01:18:51   What do you mean why not?

01:18:52   It's like either get...

01:18:55   No, it doesn't make any sense.

01:18:57   It's like getting an off-road Lamborghini,

01:18:59   which I know they're working on an SUV,

01:19:01   but I mean like, you know, if you have...

01:19:04   It's the wrong combination of things.

01:19:08   If you're gonna get some sort of big, tall,

01:19:11   four-wheel drive SUV-ish type thing,

01:19:14   don't get it with low profile tires and a super fast,

01:19:17   you're mixing things that don't work together.

01:19:20   - Yeah, but that's what makes it so magical.

01:19:22   - No, that makes it so ridiculous.

01:19:25   I keep trying, the Lamborghini was my example,

01:19:27   but they're making an SUV, so I can't think,

01:19:28   I can't, it's as if you had a Porsche SUV,

01:19:30   but they make one, it's as if you had a Ferrari SUV.

01:19:33   I think they've got one in the works too,

01:19:35   so there's no more examples I can use that are like,

01:19:38   I don't know, maybe like a Lotus,

01:19:40   they're probably gonna make a SUV too.

01:19:42   There's no good examples, but anyway,

01:19:43   it's not a good mix of things.

01:19:45   If you're gonna get something that's big and tall

01:19:47   and off-roady, get something that's big and tall

01:19:49   and off-roady, don't try to make it into a performance car,

01:19:52   'cause it doesn't make any sense.

01:19:53   - Well also, SUVs have a similar problem

01:19:56   as what I was saying a minute ago about cargo space being,

01:19:59   so like a lot of people get these compact SUVs

01:20:03   that are based on the Civic size platform.

01:20:06   In BMW land, that would be definitely the X1,

01:20:09   which is based on the actual 1 Series,

01:20:11   and probably even the X3,

01:20:14   where it's based on a compact car.

01:20:16   Definitely the Lexus RX is one of these.

01:20:18   I think it's the best-selling luxury one by a long shot.

01:20:21   So the problem is, again,

01:20:25   they have a nice trunk size opening,

01:20:28   and if you're willing to lose all the seats temporarily,

01:20:30   you can carry large things in it,

01:20:31   but if you have one or both of the seats up,

01:20:34   you're not getting that much more space.

01:20:36   sometimes you're getting less space

01:20:38   compared to just a larger sedan.

01:20:40   Or especially if you're willing to go wagon

01:20:42   or like crossover style hatchback,

01:20:45   you can often get more space than you can in an SUV

01:20:49   or at least comparable space

01:20:50   without actually having to get an SUV

01:20:52   and deal with the very different

01:20:54   and generally worse handling, the large size,

01:20:56   the worst gas mileage, all that stuff.

01:20:58   So if what you're looking for is hauling around

01:21:02   large pieces of furniture occasionally, yeah, SUV.

01:21:05   You know, that's your best.

01:21:07   But even then, if you're gonna get an SUV

01:21:09   for cargo space reasons, don't get a compact one,

01:21:12   because they're usually not any more space

01:21:15   than a reasonable size car.

01:21:17   You're gonna have to go X5 size.

01:21:18   You're gonna have to go full-size sedan base

01:21:22   or small truck base to get massive cargo space in an SUV.

01:21:26   - I pasted your answer in the chat room, Casey.

01:21:28   - What, oh, the Tesla?

01:21:30   - That's unaffordable.

01:21:31   - You were looking at an X5, suddenly this is unaffordable?

01:21:34   - Well, no, I wouldn't buy it in X5 new.

01:21:36   I couldn't afford it new.

01:21:37   It would have to be a few years old.

01:21:39   - Well, then you'd have to wait a little bit longer.

01:21:40   But this will have plenty, this solves your problem

01:21:43   because it is SUV-like, it's going to have

01:21:47   pretty good performance and tons of car space,

01:21:49   this is no engine.

01:21:50   (laughing)

01:21:51   We're talking about the Tesla Model X, by the way.

01:21:53   - If you're going Tesla, you can just do the Model S

01:21:55   because the Model S has tons of, it's a very large stand

01:21:59   and it doesn't have the engine in the front.

01:22:00   So it has, the Model S has more space than my car

01:22:04   by a pretty big margin.

01:22:06   'Cause it's just, I think it's like four inches longer.

01:22:08   It's a very long car, and it's a huge SUV.

01:22:12   It's a huge sedan.

01:22:13   It is basically as big as a sedan can get

01:22:15   without being completely outrageous in this day and age.

01:22:19   So I would say, if you're gonna go Tesla,

01:22:22   just get the Model S.

01:22:23   - I just, I can't believe,

01:22:24   I was going to ask you if they're suicide doors,

01:22:26   because it looked like the door handles in the back

01:22:28   are butting up. - Oh, go with it.

01:22:30   - Yeah, are butting up against the door handles

01:22:32   from the front.

01:22:33   And then I realized, oh, they're actually not gull wings, John.

01:22:36   According to this website, they are Falcon wings.

01:22:39   What are they faster?

01:22:41   Like do they open faster than the DeLorean doors?

01:22:44   I don't even know.

01:22:44   Is that the idea here?

01:22:45   Oh, no, I didn't even realize that have those kinds of doors.

01:22:48   Now I know I take back the recommendation.

01:22:50   Nevermind.

01:22:50   No, I got to read the, see whoa.

01:22:52   Falcon wings, calling them doors would be an understatement while

01:22:54   earning serious style points.

01:22:56   They're functional first Falcon wings open up and out of the way.

01:22:59   and even the narrowest of parking spots,

01:23:02   you easily step, not climb, into a Model X.

01:23:05   - That's really stupid.

01:23:08   - I also don't think this is a particularly

01:23:10   good looking car.

01:23:11   - No, it's not.

01:23:12   It's like Catfish.

01:23:13   - I think that the Teslas are getting progressively

01:23:17   less good looking.

01:23:18   Like the Model S, I like it.

01:23:20   - No, the Model S is a step up from the Roadster.

01:23:23   - The Roadster was a Lotus.

01:23:24   - I know, but it was ugly.

01:23:26   - Model S, I think, was pretty good in person.

01:23:29   In person, it does look large.

01:23:31   It does not look like a small car, 'cause it isn't one.

01:23:34   But besides how large it is, it looks pretty good.

01:23:37   - To go back a step, the right answer to my question,

01:23:40   which is purely hypothetical,

01:23:41   of what do you get as a family bombing around car,

01:23:45   it is a minivan.

01:23:46   Without question, that is the right answer.

01:23:47   - For one kid, though, I feel like that's not time

01:23:50   for a minivan.

01:23:51   - I'm just saying, like, hypothetically.

01:23:54   - For one kid, the largest you're allowed to go

01:23:55   is a Subaru Outback.

01:23:56   And I think like especially you have to decide do you want a car?

01:24:00   Do you want a truck like or do you want an SUV right?

01:24:02   That's the first decision because you go into often totally different directions if you decide I want something

01:24:07   That's car like because then maybe you can look at wagons

01:24:09   But still you're looking at cars if you want something that's SUV like that's a whole different category of things

01:24:13   And I feel like that that should rule out any anything with low-profile tires anything you're with performance aspirations

01:24:19   Because you should be going off in a different direction

01:24:21   right so the thing is

01:24:24   So I think the right answer is a minivan for like once if and when we ever have another kid and

01:24:29   Then all the other than the two kids want to bring their friends along to wherever we're going

01:24:33   It's understand. I'm not saying it's required

01:24:34   You should go and test drive a minivan and that will dissuade you because they're so terrible to drive by the way

01:24:40   I should also point out that this con the context of what you're saying is what you'd replace your wife's car with not your car

01:24:47   Exactly. I think Aaron would kill you right? Yeah, but I'm just saying at some point

01:24:53   You may end up having to you may have to drive the minivan and minivan driving is like it's just it's not good

01:24:58   no, so here's the thing Aaron and I have spoken about this in very big hypotheticals and

01:25:02   She has said she would

01:25:05   Probably prefer to have an SUV but would absolutely entertain the idea of a minivan

01:25:09   But would absolutely vehemently refuse to have a wagon. That's weird though. Yeah, I guess just like driving a car

01:25:17   You should really really look at the 3gt. Just saying mm-hmm

01:25:21   It's if I wanted a super outback I drive a super outback, but it's better it is but it's a super outback

01:25:28   It really isn't if you see a super outback

01:25:30   It's it's more like think of it as an ugly 3-series really an outback is definitely a wagon like an outback is

01:25:36   unquestionably a wagon a 3gt does not really look like a wagon in person because it's it's it's a pretty different shape. Mmm

01:25:43   Plus I'm telling you the giant backseat is amazing for car seats

01:25:48   It is so it has so much backseat room because it's the Chinese platform. So it has the long wheelbase platform

01:25:54   It is right so amazing how much rear seat room there is in that car and for car seats. It's it's just luxurious

01:26:01   Yeah, I don't know. I mean this is all entirely hypothetical

01:26:07   I just thought it'd be an interesting discussion to have that. Probably everyone will tell us that they hate but

01:26:11   Well screw man. It's the after show we can do whatever we want. But I mean, I mean really I think the answer is

01:26:18   is that you replace your wife who's taking care of your child full-time, you replace her car with whatever she wants.

01:26:24   Oh, absolutely.

01:26:25   That's the right answer to this question.

01:26:27   Without question, you are absolutely correct.

01:26:29   I was just curious, you know, what would you guys do in this hypothetical

01:26:34   where it's probably going to end up being a SUV or a minivan?

01:26:40   I like wagons, and I think like it's the greatest compromise between like you get a whole bunch of extra space

01:26:47   But you still get to drive a car like a real-life car. Like it's not there's nothing about it

01:26:51   That's not a car like it handles that way. The weight is usually similar like it's it's far fewer compromised

01:26:58   What I would have done if this was like a year or two ago and this was all happening and I needed to have the

01:27:03   Family car absolutely would have rocked a CTS v-wagon which is hideous. It is like every other CTS of you. Yeah, pretty much

01:27:10   It is unbelievably unbelievably hideous

01:27:13   But God to just smoke anything anything I run into except maybe Marco's car maybe would be amazing

01:27:21   I mean you can look at like to answer your you know, what would we do in this scenario?

01:27:26   You can I had the exact same scenario and I did do something and I got a 3 GT for it for to have a 3 GT

01:27:32   I

01:27:33   would you know

01:27:35   Among the forgiving your priorities given Aaron's priorities that I'm mostly just guessing based on her her liking of the Mazda 6

01:27:41   I

01:27:43   Would say first of all, it's worth looking into the current Mazda 6s. I did they still make them?

01:27:47   I don't even know. Yeah, and actually they had several ugly years right after errands, but they've gotten very pretty again

01:27:55   Yeah, so I would you know, look at that. I I would I would argue that

01:27:59   You so how long is Aaron likely to have this car? Are we talking like a decade five years less?

01:28:06   Like what are we talking about? Oh, you mean like a hypothetical new one you mean? Yeah

01:28:09   Oh, well, I mean her car we bought in

01:28:12   2007 and it's 2014 and she'd probably kill me before she gave up that car. Okay, so we're talking like, you know

01:28:20   Pretty long term so you figure like, you know

01:28:23   You have to ask yourself like are you gonna have in this interval that you're gonna have this car not forever

01:28:27   But just in the interval that she's gonna be likely to own this car

01:28:31   How many kids are you likely to have total and how old will they be? Oh, yeah fair point

01:28:36   And so you so yeah, so you have to look at that, right?

01:28:38   So in the next let's say let's say five to ten years in the next seven years, whatever it is

01:28:42   How many kids like what is your likely need going to be in this time span?

01:28:47   That should in that right there because one kid you're fine with anything one kid you're fine with the three series

01:28:53   It is extremely likely that you'd be very fine with any full-size sedan

01:29:00   You know a cord size

01:29:03   Series size model s would certainly do it. It's kind of overkill, but you can do it

01:29:07   You know a full-size sedan would serve you very well

01:29:11   Aaron currently drives a full-size sedan and so, you know chances are she probably likes full-size sedans

01:29:17   So I would start with other full-size sedans if you want to go upscale

01:29:23   Consider things like the Lexus ES which is not our style at all

01:29:28   But overall a very nice car and it's not that ridiculous. I don't think

01:29:32   like, just mom drove them for years,

01:29:35   and I spent a lot of time on them

01:29:37   in various family trips with them,

01:29:38   and they hold a ton, they're huge cars,

01:29:40   they're based on the Avalon,

01:29:42   and so they're huge cars, they're luxurious inside,

01:29:46   and they're not sporty at all, that's the problem.

01:29:48   But overall, they're pretty good.

01:29:50   Things like the Accord, I mean look,

01:29:54   John, you have a family with two kids,

01:29:57   you've never had an SUV, right?

01:29:58   You have an Accord.

01:30:00   - Before I went to the Accord,

01:30:01   What I would actually buy for myself,

01:30:03   if I was buying a bigger car with more space,

01:30:05   if I felt like I needed one, is I would probably look at,

01:30:08   I would maybe decide against,

01:30:09   but I would look at Volvo wagons.

01:30:12   - Oh yeah.

01:30:13   - Back in the day, I still have it in my head

01:30:14   that Volvo is still the most safety-focused company,

01:30:18   now that they've changed it under seven times or whatever,

01:30:20   who knows, that's still true.

01:30:22   But I have good memories of Volvos,

01:30:24   and I think they make a four-wheel drive wagon

01:30:26   that's actually a wagon.

01:30:28   I would look at them.

01:30:29   Maybe I would just decide that they're way too expensive

01:30:32   and that they don't drive as well as a car

01:30:34   that costs the same amount of money.

01:30:35   I could never bring myself to Pulla Dragna,

01:30:36   but I would look at that because I see lots of people

01:30:38   around the neighborhood driving around in Volvo wagons

01:30:40   and I like the idea of wagons to have something

01:30:43   that's car-like or whatever,

01:30:44   and it would not be a nice car inside

01:30:46   and it would not handle nicely and not drive nicely,

01:30:48   but I would have a feeling that it was safe,

01:30:50   whether that's true or not.

01:30:51   So that's what I would look at.

01:30:53   - Volvos used to be very into offering five speeds

01:30:58   back in the day, even in like wagons.

01:31:00   Is that still true?

01:31:01   - Yep, no, I had that.

01:31:02   That's what I learned, that's what I learned stick on.

01:31:04   I doubt it's still true, I'm sure.

01:31:05   Not anymore, but yeah, I think Volvo has changed a lot

01:31:09   from the Volvo that I knew in my youth.

01:31:11   But that's what I would look at.

01:31:14   And I think if I decided that a wagon was something

01:31:17   that I wanted, I would wander over to the Audi.

01:31:19   But in reality, I don't have the money

01:31:20   for either one of these cars.

01:31:22   So that's why I have a Honda Accord,

01:31:24   and that's why I would continue to buy.

01:31:25   - Well, and again, the key here is that

01:31:29   if in this hypothetical thought exercise,

01:31:32   it would almost certainly be like a two or three year old

01:31:34   used car because we don't have the money to spend

01:31:36   on one of these ridiculous monstrosities.

01:31:38   - Yeah, I don't like used cars.

01:31:40   I mean, realistically speaking,

01:31:41   if I really needed more room,

01:31:43   I would end up with the Honda Odyssey.

01:31:44   That's just what I would end up with.

01:31:45   Like, I would not like it, but that's what I would get

01:31:47   'cause there's tons of them around here.

01:31:49   That is the minivan that I can most stomach.

01:31:51   I have driven in one.

01:31:53   I do not like them.

01:31:55   But you know, you gotta do what you gotta do.

01:31:59   - And you can also, you know,

01:32:00   the world of full-size sedans and medium-sized SUVs,

01:32:05   like the X5 and stuff,

01:32:08   if you're looking at the luxury brands,

01:32:09   you know, you can do the same thing you do with your car.

01:32:11   Get one that's, you gotta use one,

01:32:12   get one that's three years old or something.

01:32:13   Like, get a three-year-old 5 Series or A6,

01:32:17   I think would be a pretty solid car.

01:32:19   You know, it's a bit of money for that,

01:32:21   but certainly cheaper than a Tesla.

01:32:24   So yeah, I would start with full-size sedans

01:32:29   and evaluate your needs based on how many kids

01:32:32   you think you're gonna have

01:32:33   and how old they're gonna be during this time span.

01:32:36   'Cause the reality is a full-size sedan

01:32:38   can hold enough for two kids.

01:32:40   It's like, you can't be the school bus

01:32:43   that brings all of the kids on a field trip,

01:32:45   but by the time that is likely to happen,

01:32:49   that might be like eight years from now,

01:32:51   'cause your kid's gonna be older by the time

01:32:53   that's actually a thing that happens, right?

01:32:55   So that might be the end of this car's lifespan.

01:32:58   - Right, right.

01:32:59   - Every time this debate comes up,

01:33:00   I always just think about our Volkswagen Rabbit

01:33:03   that my parents took the three of us skiing in

01:33:06   for a week, routinely.

01:33:09   - That's insane.

01:33:10   - Three kids, Volkswagen Rabbit, skis,

01:33:12   ski equipment, boots, no rentals,

01:33:14   bringing everything with us, one week packing.

01:33:17   - And then that's the thing, growing up,

01:33:19   My family always had Corollas and then Camrys,

01:33:21   and that was it, and there were two kids, and that was it.

01:33:23   And we made it work.

01:33:25   You'll make it work, no matter what size car you have,

01:33:28   people make it work all the time.

01:33:29   People in Europe think we're all big fat slobs

01:33:32   and we're crazy for buying these giant things,

01:33:34   'cause-- - Because we are.

01:33:34   - Well, they are right. - Exactly, they are right.

01:33:37   But families in Europe deal with much smaller cars,

01:33:41   and they just make it work.

01:33:42   That's what people do.

01:33:43   Whatever size car you have, you're gonna make it work.

01:33:45   And that's it.

01:33:47   It might be more or less convenient at certain times,

01:33:50   but also don't choose your vehicle

01:33:53   for this imagined scenario of something

01:33:57   that you might wanna do once or twice while you have it.

01:34:00   This is why so many people buy giant SUVs

01:34:03   who will never really need a lot of that space

01:34:07   or capability or off-roadness or whatever.

01:34:09   Hey, well, what if I need to move furniture?

01:34:11   Okay, well, how many times in the last three years

01:34:13   have you moved furniture that needed an SUV?

01:34:16   Ask yourself things like that.

01:34:17   - Rent a van from U-Haul.

01:34:19   - Yeah. - Be done with it.

01:34:20   - Or pay the 70 bucks to get it delivered,

01:34:22   because how many times are you gonna need to do that?

01:34:24   You know, so that's like,

01:34:26   look at your priorities like that.

01:34:29   Just think about what you would actually need

01:34:33   and use most days, and just get something that fits that,

01:34:38   because most of the time, you're not gonna be

01:34:40   carting around your kid and five of their friends

01:34:44   in the next six years.

01:34:46   that's very unlikely to happen.

01:34:48   - Oh, you're absolutely right.

01:34:49   And on the list of things that I just do not understand,

01:34:53   along with people who don't carry cash,

01:34:55   is people who buy pickup trucks and use the pickup bed

01:34:59   to haul like pick-uppy things twice a year,

01:35:02   just like you're saying.

01:35:03   - They do it zero times a year, they have covers on it.

01:35:05   Nothing is allowed to touch the bed, you'll scratch it,

01:35:07   I don't have a bed liner, I do have a bed liner,

01:35:09   but you can't scratch the bed liner.

01:35:11   That's why they have four-door pickup trucks.

01:35:13   There's a serious problem.

01:35:15   There's massive sections of this country where

01:35:18   a truck is just what you get.

01:35:20   Everybody has trucks.

01:35:23   - Ford F-150, the best selling car in America

01:35:25   for many, many years when we were growing up.

01:35:27   I think it has been displaced by the Camry

01:35:29   and the Accord now, but it's still always in the top few.

01:35:32   - Yeah, and it always depends

01:35:33   whether you include fleet vehicles or not also.

01:35:35   - Oh, but you're so right about SUVs.

01:35:37   The old SUV thing used to be like,

01:35:38   "Oh, you're never gonna take that off-road."

01:35:40   But no one says that anymore because everyone realizes

01:35:42   these are not made for off-road,

01:35:44   with the exception of maybe a couple of Range Rover stuff.

01:35:47   So everyone's fine that they're just cars,

01:35:49   but then it's like, what is it that you're getting?

01:35:51   And so many SUVs have just squeezed in the edges so much

01:35:55   that they have so little room for luggage,

01:35:58   and they only have two rows of seats,

01:36:00   and the middle seat is not more comfortable.

01:36:02   And so it's like, what you're getting is a really tall,

01:36:05   bad-handling gas-guzzling car.

01:36:07   And that's what people want, 'cause I need to be up high.

01:36:09   Like, that is the big selling point, you know?

01:36:11   I wanna be up high.

01:36:13   There is some image stuff,

01:36:15   same thing with the image stuff with the pickup truck,

01:36:16   like some part of your image,

01:36:17   you know, you're buying a car like it's like fashion.

01:36:19   I'm the kind of person who drives a whatever, right?

01:36:22   And some people feel like I'm the kind of person

01:36:24   who drives a Lexus SUV, because you know,

01:36:27   I'm a suburban dad and I want to show that I'm a family man

01:36:30   or whatever it is that you're,

01:36:31   whatever it is that you're, as John Roddick would say,

01:36:34   repping with your vehicle, that's part of the message, right?

01:36:39   And it used to be there was like off-road stuff,

01:36:41   So that went away so quickly.

01:36:43   So now I feel like for the thing that you're

01:36:47   presenting to yourself, you are trading a lot with the SUVs

01:36:50   because you're no longer getting more luggage space.

01:36:54   You're never getting anything really off road wise.

01:36:57   A lot of them are just front wheel drive,

01:36:59   not even four wheel drive.

01:37:00   The best selling models are always

01:37:01   the front wheel drive ones.

01:37:02   - Yep.

01:37:03   - So it's like, it's a big sacrifice in terms of cost

01:37:07   and mileage and handling and the possibility

01:37:10   tipping over or whatever other things you might be giving up for this

01:37:14   image that you're putting out. In the end, plain old boring cars and maybe wagons

01:37:20   still offer the best compromise in exchange for having something that says

01:37:24   nothing that you want to say about you. Like, no one. What does a Camry say about

01:37:28   you? It says you bought the default car.

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