92: You Don't Know My Pants


00:00:00   I'm drinking a little hot chocolate right now, and now I've gone from freezing cold

00:00:03   to overheating.

00:00:05   What is your hot chocolate of choice?

00:00:07   I will answer that question.

00:00:08   You don't want me to answer that question.

00:00:11   If I had to choose just one—this is me dodging, by the way—it would be the Mud House in

00:00:16   Charlottesville, which is a little coffee house in Charlottesville, Virginia.

00:00:19   Do they have winter there?

00:00:21   Okay, I'm all right.

00:00:24   I had to really bottle that one up for a second.

00:00:26   Please take note of who is doing this to you.

00:00:28   Not me.

00:00:29   (laughing)

00:00:31   But this particular hot chocolate,

00:00:33   which I do find to be quite delicious,

00:00:34   is a Keurig K-Cup and, shoot, for the life of me,

00:00:38   I don't remember who makes this hot chocolate.

00:00:40   - Oh boy.

00:00:41   Well, I mean, on one hand,

00:00:42   when you said I was not gonna like the answer,

00:00:45   I never thought it would be that bad.

00:00:46   - Yeah, no, I wouldn't have predicted that either.

00:00:49   - Well, did you think it was

00:00:49   like the Swiss Miss Instant stuff?

00:00:51   - Yeah, yeah, which is probably better.

00:00:53   - That used to be my hot chocolate of choice.

00:00:55   - If you think about like what hot chocolate requires,

00:00:57   really, I mean, yeah, you can do it the good way

00:00:59   with milk in a pot and you slowly heat up

00:01:00   and dump it a bunch of powder.

00:01:01   - Oh, so much work.

00:01:02   - It really isn't that much work, just cleaning the pot.

00:01:04   But if you think about what most hot chocolate really is,

00:01:07   just like the packet where you add water and heat

00:01:10   and you mix it and that's it,

00:01:12   a Keurig machine probably does just as good of a job

00:01:15   at that as dumping a packet into a mug and stirring it.

00:01:17   Like it's not, it probably is not that much worse.

00:01:19   It might even be slightly better in some ways, so yeah.

00:01:22   That I think is an official Marco approved usage

00:01:27   of a Keurig machine.

00:01:28   is if you're not going to ever actually make coffee in it,

00:01:30   which I'm kind of curious

00:01:31   why you even own one of these machines

00:01:33   'cause you hate coffee, is it for Aaron?

00:01:34   - No, actually the funny thing about it is

00:01:37   this machine was given to me by Aaron

00:01:39   as a Christmas gift like two years ago

00:01:41   because I freaking love the hot chocolates

00:01:42   that come out of it in the winter time.

00:01:44   Now inevitably what ended up happening

00:01:45   is Aaron uses it constantly.

00:01:47   So it was like a bowling ball gift, you know what I mean?

00:01:50   Like the stereotypical bowling ball gift.

00:01:53   - Was the bowling ball say Aaron on it?

00:01:55   - Yeah, right, but no, I asked for it.

00:01:57   I was like, no, I really honestly want a Keurig.

00:01:59   And then she got it for me.

00:02:01   And inevitably I use it like three months out of the year.

00:02:03   You know, the only time that it's winter down in Virginia.

00:02:06   (phone ringing)

00:02:07   And she uses it the entire year.

00:02:09   - All right.

00:02:10   - You want to do some follow up?

00:02:12   - Let's do it.

00:02:13   - We got a really good email

00:02:14   from an anonymous former Apple employee.

00:02:18   And John, do you want to talk about this for us?

00:02:20   - Sure. This was about iWork,

00:02:22   which we've been kind of halfheartedly complaining about

00:02:26   for the past two shows,

00:02:28   speculating about Apple's commitment to the Office Suite

00:02:32   and what effect its mediocrity might or might not have

00:02:35   on the platform.

00:02:37   And here is a supposed report from an anonymous employee

00:02:41   from what's going on with iWork.

00:02:42   And he or she says, "iWork for the iPad basically needed

00:02:47   to be a rewrite for various reasons.

00:02:49   For compatibility on the Mac, though,

00:02:51   this basically meant we needed to port iWork

00:02:53   for the iPad to the Mac,

00:02:54   which meant we're re-implementing

00:02:55   a 10-year-old Office Suite.

00:02:57   So that's what we were talking about before,

00:02:59   Marco mentioned as well, the strategy tax,

00:03:01   of the idea that iWork has to be on the iPad and on the web,

00:03:04   and that's the strategy, and the tax is,

00:03:07   we have a personally good Mac version,

00:03:09   but tough luck, we have to basically take the iOS one

00:03:11   and port it to the Mac, even if it means losing features,

00:03:13   even if it means spending a lot of time on it,

00:03:16   and so here's anonymous confirmation of that.

00:03:20   And then the other, I guess this could be considered

00:03:22   attacks as well, the strategy is-- well,

00:03:25   it's not really a strategy attack,

00:03:26   but it is a cost of being a first party piece of software.

00:03:30   When Apple comes out with new features in its OS,

00:03:33   whether it's like autosave from Lion or Spotlight in Tiger

00:03:37   or Quick Look in Leopard or Continuity in Yosemite-- god,

00:03:41   I can't keep these names straight--

00:03:43   it's the responsibility of Apple's first party apps

00:03:47   to implement those features.

00:03:48   So in the same way, third party developers

00:03:51   feel harried by this stuff as well.

00:03:52   oh, there's a new version of the OS.

00:03:53   I've got to support all this extra stuff.

00:03:55   But Apple is even more pressure internally

00:03:57   to say iWork needs to implement all these great new features.

00:04:00   So when they would rather be working on features

00:04:03   that are important to the applications, like, well,

00:04:06   if we're going to do autosave, we have to have it on our apps

00:04:09   because it looks bad if we say, hey, developers, everyone,

00:04:10   you should do autosave.

00:04:11   But oh, by the way, iWork won't do autosave.

00:04:13   Or you should implement Quick Look,

00:04:15   but our applications don't implement Quick Look.

00:04:17   So this person concludes, yes, I can definitely

00:04:19   feel from the outside that iWork is understaffed and not

00:04:22   priority but the iWork team is actually pretty large for a team at Apple.

00:04:25   In some ways it's the fact that it is a priority and the consequent strategy taxes that push

00:04:30   the team this way and that, the results in less obvious future progress for iWork year-to-year.

00:04:35   So there you go, one report purportedly from the inside about what the deal is with iWork.

00:04:40   Excellent.

00:04:41   Yeah, it makes sense.

00:04:43   It's still a bummer and it's hard.

00:04:45   You know, if I wasn't a developer, I think I'd find that very hard to swallow but I mean,

00:04:50   I get it.

00:04:51   stinks. Yeah, I mean it's more or less what we thought like that you could see from the outside the whole

00:04:56   unification and how that's gonna be a cost, right?

00:04:59   And the the pressure to implement the new technologies, like I said, people, third-party developers feel that from the outside as well.

00:05:05   We just like to think that, and this is kind of a silly thing to think, but it's difficult to avoid, that

00:05:12   Apple's got so much money. Surely they can

00:05:15   get enough resources to do a good enough job on this Office Suite, right?

00:05:21   And money doesn't turn into developers and that's to get back to the sort of you know

00:05:25   the second level meta problem of how does Apple hire and retain good employees and

00:05:29   do good employees want to stay at a company where what they do is dictated so heavily and

00:05:35   constrain so heavily would they rather work at someplace like Google where you're allowed to try 20 different things and

00:05:41   It's it's a difficult problem that but we think oh, you know, you're the mighty Apple

00:05:45   You should be able to do this

00:05:47   You have all this time and all these resources all this fame and all this prestige and back in the day all these

00:05:52   potentially valuable stock options to give and yet somehow you can't manage to

00:05:56   Release a release and maintain a decent insert your favorite application that you think Apple is neglecting here, so

00:06:03   But yet, it's a lot more difficult than than it seems from the outside not excusing it

00:06:10   It's just like you said it's kind of a bummer all around yeah

00:06:13   Alright, so we also I don't know if it was we or me but somebody got a handful of tweets from

00:06:19   Jonathan Sullinger who is Sion West on Twitter regarding Microsoft and dotnet

00:06:24   I've not had the time to look into any of this since we spoke about it last week about the open sourcing of more bits

00:06:30   of dotnet but Jonathan said

00:06:32   You can take ASP.NET source and dump it on OS 10

00:06:36   It includes that the new dotnet stuff includes an IAS platform agnostic version of the server runtime

00:06:43   You literally run IIS on OS 10 or Linux Oh Roslyn compile. Yeah

00:06:48   Well, it's weird, but the new Roslyn compiler compiles the source at runtime

00:06:53   So if you deploy source to the server and I is compiles and loads it for you

00:06:57   And again, this is why a common language runtime or what's the Swift equivalent?

00:07:02   Cil is that right something like that? No, there is no

00:07:06   Time equivalent Swift. Well, I thought they'd compiled down to some alright, whatever

00:07:10   Well now that are you can compile it anything to LLVM bytecode, but that's not really buying you anything. Yeah. Well fine

00:07:16   Well here was I thought I was smart and I was wrong

00:07:18   Anyway, the new Roslyn compiler already talked about that deploying ASP dotnet source includes cross-platform dotnet runtime and IAS

00:07:26   Runtime so you can run it on Linux from thumbsticks

00:07:29   So you could actually run internet information server if you so desired which is what I is which is kind of the the

00:07:36   Microsoft equivalent of Apache if you'll permit me to make a terrible analogy

00:07:40   You could actually run that on os 10 which is either new easy milk a see please email me

00:07:45   I guess I don't know why you would want to necessarily but you could do it

00:07:49   Would be in the chat room says Microsoft has released Docker images for ASP dotnet

00:07:53   I guess this makes sense because I think we should have you know Jeff

00:07:56   if I would on or something, ask him how they deploy Stack

00:07:59   Overflow and Discourse.

00:08:00   Stack Overflow might actually be on Windows servers.

00:08:02   I don't know.

00:08:03   Anyway, they do ASP.NET, and I think

00:08:05   he's using it for Discourse as well.

00:08:06   And it makes sense.

00:08:07   They have Linux servers.

00:08:08   And the most interesting thing about this

00:08:10   is something that's, I'm sure, not new, but it's new to me.

00:08:12   The idea that you deploy the source to the server,

00:08:16   as if it's like a scripting language, and IAS

00:08:18   doesn't just-- IAS will compile it for you.

00:08:21   That seems nice to me.

00:08:23   I don't know why.

00:08:24   But I don't like the idea of building a binary

00:08:27   and then pushing a binary up.

00:08:28   It doesn't feel webby.

00:08:29   For someone who's spent so many years writing stuff

00:08:32   and then it just runs, like the JavaScript just

00:08:35   runs in the browser or whatever, PHP or Perl or Python

00:08:39   or whatever, runs on the server and there's

00:08:43   no compilation step.

00:08:44   And so it's neat that they're doing the same thing.

00:08:46   Which, I mean, it's not an amazing technical feat,

00:08:48   but I just think it feels webby to me.

00:08:50   Well, even in Windows, there are a lot of things

00:08:55   that get compiled at runtime,

00:08:57   the first time they're necessary.

00:08:59   And in fact, a project I did a few years ago,

00:09:02   we were using what is now Microsoft Dynamics,

00:09:05   but at the time was called CRM.

00:09:07   And what it ended up happening was

00:09:10   we were leveraging the CRM API,

00:09:13   which is a bunch of soap, of course,

00:09:15   because it's Microsoft.

00:09:16   And the way CRM works is

00:09:20   you can kind of build up entities on the, well, not on the fly, but you direct CRM to

00:09:24   build up these entities.

00:09:25   So, you know, a customer includes whatever unique fields you want it to include, and

00:09:29   you basically build a relational database in the UI.

00:09:32   Well, what ends up happening is they have strongly typed like classes and everything

00:09:37   for all of these different entities that you've built.

00:09:40   So in turn, what ended up happening was the wisdom for the particular CRM environment

00:09:46   we were trying to hit was something like 40,000 lines of XML.

00:09:51   It was enormous.

00:09:52   And what we were running into was every time we started IAS on a dev box, on the real box,

00:09:58   it didn't matter.

00:09:59   One way or another, every time we started IAS, it would pause for literally a minute.

00:10:04   And for the life of us, we couldn't figure out what was going on.

00:10:07   Well, fast forward a few days of playing with it, and it turns out what we were doing was

00:10:12   Since we were using proxy objects that were strongly

00:10:17   typed versions of classes that represented the WSDL,

00:10:21   those were all getting compiled at runtime as IIS started.

00:10:24   And so that took a really darn long time,

00:10:28   since it was a 40,000 line WSDL, or whatever the case may be.

00:10:31   And so what we ended up having to do was explicitly

00:10:34   precompile all of those proxy classes

00:10:38   and include that DLL in our deployment

00:10:41   in order to prevent that heinous runtime.

00:10:43   And I bring all this up, or load time,

00:10:45   and I bring all this up because my point is

00:10:47   IES was doing that compilation,

00:10:48   or perhaps the .NET framework was doing that compilation

00:10:51   based on a request on IES.

00:10:53   - Correction from the chatroom,

00:10:54   Discourse is Ruby, not ASP.NET.

00:10:56   Stack Overflow is ASP.NET.

00:10:58   - Well, the chatroom is saying Discourse is Ruby

00:11:01   in all capitals.

00:11:01   I'm not sure, is that something else?

00:11:03   Like R-U-B-Y?

00:11:04   Is that like an initialism for something?

00:11:05   - Other people capitalized it correctly.

00:11:08   - Anyway, Igloo is an intranet you will actually like,

00:11:11   and they are sponsoring our show this week,

00:11:12   which is why I'm telling you this.

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00:11:30   This is really, really, really good.

00:11:31   If you have a company of 10 people or fewer,

00:11:34   it is just free to use forever.

00:11:36   You can just use this internet product for free.

00:11:38   And then after that, it's very reasonably priced

00:11:40   if you're a larger company.

00:11:41   It was responsive design.

00:11:43   Your internet works like a champ on every device,

00:11:45   iOS, Android, even Blackberry.

00:11:48   And it will even work on iPhone 6 Plus,

00:11:50   iPhone 6, iPhone 5, all the different iPhones.

00:11:53   I'm guessing once they can make something

00:11:55   for the Apple Watch, I bet they will.

00:11:56   They're really good about responsive design,

00:11:58   making it work on every screen.

00:11:59   And what's really cool about this,

00:12:01   they have all sorts of HTML5 powered features

00:12:03   for things like document previews, annotations,

00:12:06   things like that where there's no Flash plugin required

00:12:08   for any of that stuff.

00:12:09   You can actually annotate a document with your coworkers

00:12:13   right on your phone.

00:12:14   And even if your phone has no native device

00:12:16   for this kind of thing, you can just do it right there.

00:12:18   All your design is carried over between all the devices.

00:12:20   If you customize the logo, if you customize colors,

00:12:22   all that stuff, all your custom design that you wanna do,

00:12:25   that carries across every device as well.

00:12:28   And Gartner even likes them.

00:12:29   So Gartner is a company that enterprises pay money to

00:12:32   to tell them where to pay money.

00:12:34   Igloo appears for the sixth consecutive year

00:12:37   in this magic quadrant, alongside tech giants

00:12:39   like Microsoft, IBM, Google, VMware, Salesforce.com, and SAP.

00:12:43   In a report that values the viability of the vendor,

00:12:46   Igloo is praised for their responsiveness

00:12:48   and customer experience.

00:12:50   This is what Gartner wrote about them.

00:12:51   Feedback from Igloo's reference customers

00:12:53   was consistently positive.

00:12:55   They praised the product's quick deployment,

00:12:56   configuration, and customization flexibility

00:12:58   with self-service options for non-technical users,

00:13:01   control over branding,

00:13:03   and information organization and ease of use.

00:13:05   They also praised the responsiveness of Igloo

00:13:06   as an organization.

00:13:08   So if your company, chances are,

00:13:10   if you work for a company of more than 10 people,

00:13:12   you almost certainly know what Gartner is,

00:13:15   and you probably need to tell your boss,

00:13:17   here, Gartner approved this, therefore we can use it.

00:13:20   - That's basically how it works, yeah.

00:13:21   - Like John, I mean, you work in the enterprise.

00:13:23   Would your company use an internet platform

00:13:26   that was not recommended by Gartner?

00:13:28   - I don't know what calculus goes into our choice

00:13:30   of internet platform, but whatever it is,

00:13:32   I don't like the result.

00:13:33   (laughing)

00:13:34   - Okay, well, if your company is like John's

00:13:37   and you don't like the result, which is pretty likely,

00:13:39   get them on Igloo, show them the Gartner Report

00:13:41   or have them look it up, give Igloo a try.

00:13:44   Free to use for up to 10 people,

00:13:46   very reasonably priced after that.

00:13:47   Sign up at igloosoftware.com/atp.

00:13:51   Thanks a lot to Igloo.

00:13:53   - So John, you wanna tell me about some of the stuff

00:13:55   that the Germans have been doing with bendy iPhones?

00:13:59   - Yeah, we gotta go entirely based on the feedback here.

00:14:01   This is from Julian pointing us to a website

00:14:03   that's written in German.

00:14:04   I didn't even bother doing the Google Translate thing or whatever because Julian was nice enough to summarize it for us, but this is

00:14:09   more on bending iPhones and gets into something that I mentioned on a

00:14:15   Couple of our past episodes about we don't know what the environment of the pocket is like on an iPhone

00:14:20   What kind of forces can be applied in the pocket and apparently this website?

00:14:25   Which is sort of the German equivalent of Consumer Reports according to Julian

00:14:30   Tried to figure this out by putting pants on people and having them sit down on different surfaces and so on and so forth

00:14:37   So here are the bullet point conclusions

00:14:39   He says it seems impossible to bend a phone when located in your front pocket

00:14:44   I think I think I could get it done

00:14:47   I feel like it's just a question of how tight the pants are whatever but you don't know my pants

00:14:50   Said it seems impossible

00:14:53   Sitting down on your phone in the back pocket results in defamation if you sit on a hard edge

00:14:58   The testing person reported that deformation was painful so no unconscious bending possible again. I contest this because

00:15:05   if I think it's possible to be wearing something very large and very tight on

00:15:12   A person who is not in good touch with their body or parts of their body have become numb

00:15:17   And and said and not notice, but anyway

00:15:22   And the iPhones and the Sony Xperia Z2,

00:15:26   which I assume is a phone,

00:15:27   were the only phones that bent in the wearing test.

00:15:31   So there are some results.

00:15:32   If you can read German,

00:15:33   you can figure out whether this summary is accurate or not.

00:15:36   But I'm glad people are continuing to delve

00:15:40   into the research here and say,

00:15:41   what is it like in a pocket for a phone?

00:15:44   - Any other followup?

00:15:45   - I don't know if it's followup or not,

00:15:46   but forever ago we were talking

00:15:48   about the new USB Type-C connector,

00:15:50   basically the USB clone of the Lightning connector,

00:15:53   where it's reversible and smaller.

00:15:55   And today the news came out about the Nokia N1 tablet,

00:15:59   which is basically Nokia's clone of the iPad mini.

00:16:03   And it includes a clone of the Lightning port

00:16:07   in the form of the new USB Type-C connector.

00:16:08   And I think this is the first one we've seen.

00:16:10   Is that true?

00:16:11   - I've never seen it.

00:16:12   I'm sure there was one that shipped on some PC somewhere

00:16:16   before that, but this is the highest profile one

00:16:18   I've seen anyway.

00:16:20   So here, you know, you can see on this Verge article,

00:16:22   they showed this, you know, this whole thing,

00:16:24   and it looks pretty much like,

00:16:27   it looks exactly like a lightning connector in the picture.

00:16:30   We don't have a good picture of like the,

00:16:32   of all the angles of the plug on it, I think.

00:16:34   Do we, do you know of any other ones besides these?

00:16:36   - We had them when we talked about it before,

00:16:38   but not in this particular shot.

00:16:39   I don't think it's fair to call the USB Type-C connector

00:16:43   the clone of lightning connector.

00:16:44   I wish it was a clone of lightning connector.

00:16:45   Instead, it's a small, rounded USB connector

00:16:49   with little pins on the inside instead of the outside.

00:16:52   - Oh, right. - Which is fine, whatever.

00:16:53   But this tablet is totally fair to call this

00:16:56   a clone of the iPad Mini because it's a type of clone where

00:17:00   when you see the places where they deviate,

00:17:03   you think to yourself, that deviation is intentional

00:17:06   so they can sleep at night.

00:17:08   Like, just different, when they did the holes

00:17:11   for the speakers in the bottom,

00:17:13   instead of having them be rectangular regions,

00:17:15   they put a little, you know, extra little curves

00:17:17   look kind of like rounded edge regions though.

00:17:19   And as John Gruber's son pointed out, a different number of rows, instead of having

00:17:23   two rows of dots, there's three rows of dots.

00:17:26   And it's like, you know when they're doing that, it's like, look, you know what you're

00:17:29   doing.

00:17:30   You're cloning the iPad mini.

00:17:31   And then you're like, well, we have to do something to be different.

00:17:35   And so they differ in the smallest, tiniest little details so they can feel like they're

00:17:40   not copying it.

00:17:41   This is an extremely shameless hardware design.

00:17:44   Yeah.

00:17:45   Like looking at this, do you think honestly,

00:17:48   like you said they do this so they can sleep at night.

00:17:51   I just think that they have just decided

00:17:53   that they are morally bankrupt.

00:17:55   Like they just don't even care.

00:17:56   And they can say, you know what,

00:17:57   if we're gonna partially clone it,

00:17:58   let's just go all the way.

00:17:59   - But they didn't though.

00:18:00   Like the holes for the speakers are like,

00:18:03   we're giving our own twist, right?

00:18:05   - That's such a little thing.

00:18:07   Like everything else is so close.

00:18:09   - It's basically like if you copy

00:18:11   and paste someone else's source code,

00:18:12   but you change the names of the variables.

00:18:13   This is basically the hardware equivalent of that.

00:18:16   - This is like you changed the name of one global variable

00:18:18   in one file and that was it.

00:18:19   - Yeah, I mean, and here's the argument against cloning.

00:18:22   Just take the other side of it,

00:18:23   'cause people are gonna look at this

00:18:25   and there is a kernel of truth underlying the BS

00:18:28   that I'm about to spew here.

00:18:29   And it's that when you have a tablet,

00:18:32   it's just basically like a rectangular screen.

00:18:35   There's only so many ways you can slice that.

00:18:37   There's no sense putting a bunch of lumps there

00:18:39   that don't need to be there.

00:18:41   Rounded edges, like you're not gonna make

00:18:43   the edges point to say, oh, well, your edges are rounded,

00:18:45   ours are pointy.

00:18:46   Pointy edges are dumb.

00:18:47   There is very little room for interpretation

00:18:49   in a utilitarian device like this.

00:18:52   That's the argument for, well, it's not really a clone.

00:18:55   It's got to be a screen, like this, or whatever.

00:18:57   But that is mostly BS, because never mind

00:19:01   that this thing copies not just the overall shape

00:19:03   of the details, but also it's only obvious

00:19:06   because it's been done.

00:19:07   It could have just as well been obvious,

00:19:10   say, if the surface came out, that every tablet has a kickstand.

00:19:12   Right?

00:19:13   And it would say, well, you know, of course,

00:19:15   it's gonna look like the surface.

00:19:16   Everyone knows tablets have kickstands.

00:19:18   Like if the iPad didn't exist and the surface

00:19:20   was a standard barefoot tablet,

00:19:21   it could have been very different.

00:19:22   It's only like, this is what tablets look like

00:19:24   because the iPad established the form.

00:19:27   And so I get people pass for aping the form,

00:19:30   like, yeah, it's a big rectangular screen with rounded edges.

00:19:33   I say, that's fine.

00:19:34   But even that, you have to admit like,

00:19:35   that comes from the existence of the iPad.

00:19:38   But this doesn't just copy the form

00:19:40   as so many other tablets have before.

00:19:42   it copies down to the minutest little details,

00:19:45   except for the parts where it consciously deviates

00:19:47   in the minute details to try to say,

00:19:48   see, we're not really copying.

00:19:49   So it is just, I almost have more respect

00:19:53   for like the iPhone clones from China

00:19:56   that try to clone it exactly right down

00:19:57   to trying to say the word iPhone on the back,

00:19:59   whether you use an F instead of a P or something.

00:20:01   At least they know what they're doing.

00:20:02   They say, we're going to copy the iPhone exactly,

00:20:05   appearance wise, unless you look really close.

00:20:09   And that I think is almost a more noble endeavor

00:20:12   than what Nokia is doing here.

00:20:14   Because Nokia is like, no, this is a legitimate product.

00:20:16   This is not like a clone.

00:20:17   We're not gonna get sued by Apple.

00:20:18   I just, ugh, it's ridiculous.

00:20:21   - Well, but this is Foxconn apparently.

00:20:22   If you look at this Verge article, now I'm quoting,

00:20:24   "Nokia is partnering with Foxconn to build the N1,

00:20:27   "licensing the industrial design, Nokia brand,

00:20:29   "and Z launcher software to the device maker."

00:20:32   Well, I guess the industrial design

00:20:33   means it was Nokia's design.

00:20:34   - Well, yeah, I mean, everyone's licensing things

00:20:35   to people like Foxconn to have them built.

00:20:37   - Well, but does that require licensing just to build it?

00:20:40   Like is Apple licensing the design to Foxconn

00:20:43   to build an iPad?

00:20:44   - I don't know the details of how that works.

00:20:46   I mean, like there were stories like

00:20:47   with the first BlackBerry,

00:20:49   and maybe the only BlackBerry playbook,

00:20:50   where like they were like, I think it was Foxconn,

00:20:53   one of the big manufacturers had this basically

00:20:56   stock tablet design and BlackBerry, you know,

00:21:00   just said, all right, make that, stick our name

00:21:02   in the front, stick our software in it,

00:21:03   and that's the playbook.

00:21:04   And then remember the first Kindle Fire

00:21:06   was almost the exact same thing.

00:21:07   It was like the same design by the same people

00:21:09   with like slightly different,

00:21:10   you know, they're basically just white labeling it.

00:21:13   It's like slightly different things on the front

00:21:14   and that was the Kindle Fire.

00:21:16   - I'm pretty sure Apple does not do that.

00:21:18   - No, Apple definitely does not do that.

00:21:20   They have occasionally done it with Intel

00:21:22   where from what I've heard,

00:21:24   feel free to write it and correct me.

00:21:25   From what I've heard, oftentimes Intel will do

00:21:28   a lot of the design work of Apple's motherboards.

00:21:33   What are they called?

00:21:34   Logic boards in Apple land.

00:21:35   And occasionally I forget, slip into my native tongue.

00:21:39   But yeah, but I don't think it extends really much past that

00:21:43   and even that it probably is not that frequent.

00:21:46   - Yeah, Apple has helped designs like this a little bit

00:21:48   though in that Apple's push for whatever those machines

00:21:52   that like, you know, the computer control milling machines

00:21:56   that take a block of aluminum, carve it into a case

00:21:58   or whatever, like Apple starting with a MacBook Air,

00:22:02   Apple has put a lot of money into buying more and more

00:22:05   of those machines or financing the purchase of those machines

00:22:09   for factories that build its stuff.

00:22:11   And now there are a bunch of factories with the ability

00:22:13   to, you know, the companies that make those machines

00:22:15   made money because they sold more of them

00:22:17   and they can make more of them, make them better.

00:22:18   So essentially the manufacturing technology

00:22:21   to make something like the products Apple has made

00:22:24   is now more available than it would have been

00:22:25   if Apple hadn't pushed for this type of design.

00:22:27   So there is sort of a global effect on the supply chain

00:22:30   of Apple selling a lot of devices like this

00:22:32   and putting a lot of money into the tooling

00:22:34   to make devices like this,

00:22:35   which means now this manufacturing capacity

00:22:37   and this manufacturing know-how

00:22:39   and the companies with experience doing this

00:22:41   is available to companies other than Apple,

00:22:43   partially because Apple did this.

00:22:45   In the same way Apple benefits

00:22:46   from all the semiconductor technology

00:22:49   that it takes advantage of and memory and stuff like that,

00:22:51   because other people are buying a lot of things.

00:22:53   It's all part of an ecosystem.

00:22:54   So it's not too strange to see successful materials

00:22:58   and manufacturing processes

00:22:59   that Apple may have pioneered now being popular everywhere

00:23:03   because hey, it's a good idea,

00:23:04   more people should be doing it.

00:23:05   But I just feel like at the very least,

00:23:08   I don't mind you making a rounded rectangle screen thing

00:23:11   'cause that's what a tablet is more or less.

00:23:13   You know, I'll give you that it can be very iPad-like,

00:23:16   but there's something with the DLs.

00:23:19   I kind of like the, what was it?

00:23:20   The Nexus 6 tablet,

00:23:22   whichever one had like a rubbery back on it

00:23:24   and stuff like that.

00:23:25   That I think was better than an iPad.

00:23:27   I wish my iPad had a rubbery back like that

00:23:28   because I think it's great, you know,

00:23:30   it makes it grippy and more comfortable

00:23:31   and everything like that.

00:23:32   That's a way to differentiate yourself from Apple.

00:23:35   Do something different and better.

00:23:37   Don't try to do exactly the same thing.

00:23:39   - Right, do something Apple probably won't ever do.

00:23:41   - Yeah, even though they probably should.

00:23:43   - Because, yeah, there's a market for some of those things.

00:23:45   I said things like the rubberized back,

00:23:48   things like have a version of the tablet

00:23:52   that's half an inch thick and has amazing

00:23:54   week-long battery life.

00:23:55   Like things that Apple would probably never do,

00:23:59   many of those things can be markets

00:24:00   and it's perfectly respectful to address those.

00:24:02   Like I feel like if you're gonna knock it off,

00:24:04   knock it off all the way.

00:24:05   Like don't knock off 95% of it.

00:24:08   Really knock it off or go your own way

00:24:11   and make something that would not be mistaken

00:24:14   by many, many casual observers to be this other thing.

00:24:19   - Yeah, so I have two thoughts on this.

00:24:21   But first, some real time follow up from the chat room.

00:24:23   It's apparently the Nexus 7 that you were thinking of,

00:24:26   or so I'm told.

00:24:27   Either way, first question I have is,

00:24:29   looking at this Verge article, the hero image at the top,

00:24:31   is that Monument Valley on there?

00:24:33   - Yep, it's available for Android.

00:24:35   - Oh, it is? - Yep.

00:24:36   - Maybe that's like a 95% clone of Monument Valley.

00:24:38   - No, it's the real thing.

00:24:39   I'm pretty sure it's available.

00:24:40   That's definitely the real thing.

00:24:42   - Okay, I did not realize it was available for Android.

00:24:44   And then finally, if you look all the way at the bottom,

00:24:47   you can see a closeup of both ends

00:24:49   of the reversible USB port.

00:24:50   Obviously the one end looks just like any other USB port.

00:24:53   But the one that looks like the lightning connector,

00:24:56   I'm pretty sure we knew this,

00:24:57   but what with the pins being on the inside, I guess,

00:25:00   that just looks weird.

00:25:01   Not bad, just it looks so funny

00:25:03   because I think to myself,

00:25:05   oh, that's not a lightning connector.

00:25:07   - It's the USB version of this tablet.

00:25:09   (laughing)

00:25:11   On a quick glance,

00:25:12   you would definitely think it's a lightning connector

00:25:14   and then, oh no, it's actually not.

00:25:16   - I think it's bigger than the lightning connector.

00:25:18   like it's wider and thicker.

00:25:20   - Probably, but it's so hard to tell here.

00:25:23   - Yes, but it is very similar.

00:25:24   And there, that's a place that I wish the USB spec

00:25:27   had more closely copy of lighting connector,

00:25:29   despite the fact that we went through this

00:25:31   before everyone telling me that Apple's lighting cables

00:25:33   are garbage and shred and, you know,

00:25:36   I'm still going through never having destroyed

00:25:40   any first party Apple USB to anything connector.

00:25:44   So obviously I baby my hardware to a degree

00:25:46   that is outside the norm.

00:25:48   - And no one is surprised by that.

00:25:52   - You know what's actually a little bit funny?

00:25:53   And I don't know if this is

00:25:55   how these things are supposed to work,

00:25:57   but if I had to buy an Android tablet

00:25:59   like for testing something, I would probably buy this one.

00:26:03   - Because it's least different.

00:26:05   - It looks like it's most likely

00:26:07   to have the hardware not be horrible.

00:26:08   Like every time I bought an Android test device,

00:26:12   it's gone very poorly.

00:26:16   I always get like, I got a Kindle Fire,

00:26:18   I got one of the first Nexus 7s,

00:26:20   and it's, woo, and a Barnes and Noble Nook tablet,

00:26:25   which was a big mistake.

00:26:26   They've all been these awful devices, like just hideous,

00:26:28   like just terrible to use, awful like, you know,

00:26:31   battery issues and plastic, everything about them

00:26:35   was horrible.

00:26:36   I feel like if I'm gonna buy an Android tablet,

00:26:39   maybe like just get the one that's a complete rip off,

00:26:43   and it might be somewhat usable to what I'm,

00:26:46   compared to what I'm used to.

00:26:47   Not in software, obviously.

00:26:49   - Well, Nokia makes nice hardware,

00:26:50   so there's a chance that it would actually,

00:26:53   it would be high quality,

00:26:54   but the Chinese knockoff clone things

00:26:57   are always like they look the same from a distance,

00:26:59   but as soon as you press one button,

00:27:01   you're like, "Oh, this is not an iPhone."

00:27:02   - Yeah.

00:27:03   And see, what worries me is that this has,

00:27:05   they're talking about their Z launcher thing, something.

00:27:08   So this looks like this is gonna be crapped up

00:27:10   with their software, so it's probably still a good idea

00:27:13   just buy a Google tablet for Android testing.

00:27:15   Which is unfortunate because I'm not crazy

00:27:17   about their hardware and people in the chat

00:27:20   are like saying, oh, the first Nexus 7 was bad?

00:27:23   Yeah, why don't you ask any owners of the first Nexus 7

00:27:25   how it's doing these days and how it was doing

00:27:27   even a year after they bought it?

00:27:29   Anyway, in better news, things that are not cheap knockoffs

00:27:32   but are actually the best in their class,

00:27:33   we are also sponsored this week by our friends at Hover,

00:27:37   or the cheap knockoff version, hover.

00:27:40   (laughing)

00:27:41   - Hover is the best way to buy a Manx domain names.

00:27:43   Go to hover.com and use offer code

00:27:47   CaseyNeedsADrink this week.

00:27:49   (laughing)

00:27:51   To save 10% on your first order.

00:27:53   Hover is really a fantastic domain registrar.

00:27:56   Let's say you have a name for something,

00:27:58   you wanna go register it.

00:27:59   Hover is the place to do that.

00:28:01   They're well designed, they're respectful,

00:28:03   they are not scammy.

00:28:04   You get a great value.

00:28:06   So many things are included at no additional charge.

00:28:08   Their add-on services that are paid

00:28:10   are very reasonably priced and very good.

00:28:12   Things like their email hosting

00:28:15   and they have Google Apps for you,

00:28:17   domain hosting, stuff like that.

00:28:19   Hover gives you easy to use powerful tools

00:28:21   to manage the names after you've bought them.

00:28:24   So they have this awesome GUI interface.

00:28:26   It's very, did I hear Mike saying it's very Web 2.0?

00:28:29   - It very well could be.

00:28:29   - Beautiful designs here, very respectful of you, the user.

00:28:33   There's not like a billion different check boxes everywhere

00:28:35   with trying to like trick you into getting add-on services

00:28:38   or anything else.

00:28:39   It's really just, it's nice, it works,

00:28:41   it's highly functional and yet also still looks good.

00:28:43   If you have any trouble,

00:28:44   they have amazing customer support.

00:28:46   They have the usual phone,

00:28:48   or the usual email options and everything.

00:28:51   They also have phone support.

00:28:53   You can call them up during business hours

00:28:54   and a human being answers the phone who can talk to you.

00:28:57   There's a no hold, no wait,

00:28:59   no transfer phone support policy.

00:29:01   It's really, it's incredible.

00:29:04   If you need phone support,

00:29:05   even if you just kinda wanna talk

00:29:06   to somebody nice from Canada,

00:29:08   If you need phone support, call them up, they are fantastic.

00:29:11   They also have value transfer service,

00:29:13   where if you wanna transfer names into Hover,

00:29:15   no matter how many, if you're transferring one name,

00:29:17   if you're transferring 100 names,

00:29:18   if you're transferring names to Hover,

00:29:20   they will, if you want them to,

00:29:22   they will log into your old registrar

00:29:24   and do the transfers for you.

00:29:26   So they will move everything over properly,

00:29:28   DNS settings, email settings, stuff like that,

00:29:30   that's kinda tricky to get right and very error prone.

00:29:32   They'll do all that for you if you want them to.

00:29:34   If you wanna do it yourself, you can, no big deal.

00:29:37   There's no pressure, but if you're willing to give them

00:29:39   your login to your old site, they'll do it all for you,

00:29:41   and it's really, really great to not have to worry about,

00:29:43   oh, did I forget a DNS setting somewhere,

00:29:46   or if, you know, 'cause if you mess that up,

00:29:47   you're down for hours.

00:29:49   They're really, really great at this.

00:29:50   They have all the new crazy top-level domains.

00:29:53   If you wanna get like a .coffee or a .plumbing,

00:29:55   or I saw today there's .world is now available,

00:29:58   so you can make anything you want .world.

00:30:01   All these wonderful new domain names

00:30:02   to make wonderful new joke sites,

00:30:04   and maybe an occasional actual real site.

00:30:07   Go to hover.com, use promo code, CaseyNeedsADrink.

00:30:10   All one word, we will put that in the show notes

00:30:13   in case you forget.

00:30:14   Thanks a lot to hover.com for sponsoring our show.

00:30:17   - I wanna get Mac.world and Disney.world now.

00:30:20   - Oh, that's smart thinking.

00:30:21   - Those are probably taken and would probably be

00:30:24   under squatting trademark problems.

00:30:26   - Doesn't Disney, Disney.world sounds like something

00:30:29   that would be said on a sitcom in like 1994

00:30:31   when someone's trying to write a line about the internet.

00:30:34   Let's go to Disney.world.

00:30:36   - And now it's gonna be our real domain name.

00:30:37   It's gonna actually redirect to Disney.

00:30:39   - That's the problem with all these new TLDs.

00:30:40   They all sound like terrible jokes.

00:30:43   - We just need to be able to include backslashes

00:30:45   in our URLs and we will finally arrive at the,

00:30:47   I mean, OS X was essentially the movie OS.

00:30:50   Like OS is the do ridiculous animations that, you know,

00:30:52   they'd show in movies.

00:30:53   Like no real computer works like that.

00:30:54   And then Apple made a computer that actually works like that.

00:30:57   It's like, well, there's your movie.

00:30:58   Although it doesn't beep every time letters

00:30:59   appear on the screen.

00:31:00   And now we've got movie domain names.

00:31:04   Disney.world\, yeah, okay.

00:31:07   (laughing)

00:31:09   - It drives me nuts anytime I watch any television show

00:31:11   or movie where everything that the computer does

00:31:14   creates a noise or some sort of sound effect.

00:31:16   (mimicking sound effects)

00:31:18   - A window appears on the screen and it makes a noise.

00:31:20   No one has had the guts to do that yet

00:31:22   'cause people would smash their computers to bits

00:31:24   in about, you know, in an office space style,

00:31:26   you know, printer destruction sequence

00:31:28   in the first day of every window that appeared

00:31:31   made a noise.

00:31:32   - Well, there have been occasional system plugins

00:31:34   and stuff to do that as jokes based on movies,

00:31:37   but I would imagine it's the kind of thing,

00:31:39   kind of like if somebody in front of you in line

00:31:40   at the grocery store is trying to use currency,

00:31:43   I'm guessing if you tried to actually use one of those

00:31:45   things in an office, you would get your butt handed

00:31:48   to you pretty quickly.

00:31:50   - In an office, yeah, you're noisy by the people.

00:31:52   Even if you're just alone in your house, though,

00:31:54   it would drive you insane.

00:31:55   I mean, there's a whole, I think there's an Every Frame

00:31:57   a Painting talking about showing texts and stuff,

00:32:00   which is much more tasteful, but yeah, they do it in movies

00:32:03   so that you know to look at something, but it's just,

00:32:07   at this point, everyone is so familiar with computers

00:32:09   and phones of all kinds that,

00:32:11   again, I don't think you can get away with that anymore.

00:32:13   I think you have to come up with another way

00:32:15   to draw the viewer's attention,

00:32:17   because everybody knows what those look like.

00:32:18   It's not like, well, most people don't know

00:32:19   what computers work like anyway,

00:32:20   so we can do whatever we want.

00:32:21   No, you can't, everybody knows now.

00:32:23   Even little kids know.

00:32:24   (laughing)

00:32:26   - I'm just disappointed we don't have the,

00:32:28   what was it, like a spatial finder or whatever

00:32:30   from Jurassic Park.

00:32:32   - Oh God, don't get John started.

00:32:33   - That's not a Spatial Finder, come on.

00:32:35   - There goes the show.

00:32:36   - That was a real thing on SDI,

00:32:38   we had that when I was at BU,

00:32:42   the little flying through 3D interface thing.

00:32:45   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:45   - We had those in the SDI lab,

00:32:47   that is actual software that somebody made.

00:32:49   It was useless and stupid, but it was real.

00:32:52   - I want it.

00:32:53   It's a Unix system, I know this.

00:32:54   - Wow.

00:32:56   - See, I had that reference.

00:32:58   - That's good.

00:32:58   - Do I get any points for that?

00:33:00   Sure. Now that's just, you maintain a passing grade in that category.

00:33:05   It's not, you're avoiding failing. You're not, you're not achieving victory.

00:33:09   Hi, Priyesh from John Syracuse.

00:33:12   Yeah, thanks. I feel great now. All right, so let's talk about,

00:33:17   apparently something big happened today. Big week.

00:33:20   You want to talk about watch kit?

00:33:21   I actually did my homework. I watched the video.

00:33:23   I am stupefied that you have actually done your homework. And John,

00:33:27   did you also do your homework?

00:33:28   - I read a lot of stuff and read a lot of tweets

00:33:30   and I watched half of the video.

00:33:32   It is now paused halfway through.

00:33:34   - So you get a C.

00:33:36   - Yeah, that you are maintaining a passing grade.

00:33:39   - Yeah, I'll watch the rest of it later.

00:33:40   You know, it was, it's like a half an hour long.

00:33:43   So, and it does go kind of slowly.

00:33:46   - Yeah, it's given at like the WWDC video pace.

00:33:49   And the problem is like, WWDC videos,

00:33:51   you can open them up in QuickTime,

00:33:53   you can speed them up, play them at like 1.4X.

00:33:56   This video though was only a HTTP live streaming thing

00:34:00   and I had a half hour to watch it

00:34:02   and I knew it would have taken me about 15 minutes of that

00:34:05   to figure out how to get FFmpeg

00:34:07   to download all the little segments

00:34:09   and join them all together into a file that I could speed up

00:34:11   and I would therefore lose the gains

00:34:12   that I would have gotten from speeding it up.

00:34:14   But yeah, this is something that could use

00:34:16   a little bit of a speed boost.

00:34:18   But otherwise, I thought it was really interesting.

00:34:21   So did we ever talk about Underscore's article

00:34:24   like two weeks ago when he was basically predicting

00:34:26   what WatchKit would allow us to do

00:34:28   based on what Apple had said.

00:34:29   - Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.

00:34:31   I don't know if we ever spoke of it,

00:34:33   but he was more right than wrong, but not 100% right,

00:34:37   which is surprising 'cause I thought he had nailed it

00:34:39   when I read that article.

00:34:41   - Yeah, definitely.

00:34:42   So our friend, Undercrow David Smith,

00:34:44   wrote this article, we'll link to it.

00:34:45   I'm pretty sure we actually didn't get to it.

00:34:47   I think you're right.

00:34:48   But anyway, we're gonna have full native watch apps

00:34:52   allegedly later next year, is what Apple said originally.

00:34:56   And this was not announced today,

00:34:57   this was announced when the watch was announced.

00:35:00   So the most likely outcome is that at WWDC next year,

00:35:05   they will unveil the native SDK.

00:35:08   Between now and then, you don't get native apps,

00:35:11   you get limited access to the watch

00:35:15   and everything seems to run basically controlled

00:35:18   through an extension on your phone.

00:35:21   So your iOS app has a watch kit extension that,

00:35:25   I don't think any of this is ND8, right?

00:35:27   Isn't it like it's all public?

00:35:28   - No, that main public page,

00:35:30   the thing that I have quoted and bolded in the show notes

00:35:32   was right off of Apple's site,

00:35:33   you don't need to be logged in to get it.

00:35:35   - Right, exactly.

00:35:37   So your app is basically running as an extension

00:35:39   that launches on your phone

00:35:40   when the user taps the thing on the watch to launch you.

00:35:43   Also, if your app sends push notifications,

00:35:46   they'll show up on the watch, but we knew that already.

00:35:49   So the phone, this is all from video,

00:35:51   It's interesting, I think you should watch it

00:35:52   if you're at all interested in this stuff.

00:35:54   What we have now is more than I thought we would have,

00:36:00   but definitely less than a full native SDK.

00:36:02   So I thought we would only have what they are calling

00:36:06   glances and actionable notifications.

00:36:10   And actionable notifications are exactly what we see

00:36:12   in iOS 8 where notifications can have

00:36:14   a couple of buttons on 'em, so you could like,

00:36:16   get a notification for a podcast and tap a play button,

00:36:19   which yes, I know Overcast does not support yet,

00:36:21   I'm waiting for streaming to do that anyway.

00:36:24   So I figured you can show those on the watch as well

00:36:26   and have there be a couple of buttons

00:36:27   and that might be all you get.

00:36:28   And then a glance, I figured it'd be like a read only view

00:36:31   of some information from your app

00:36:33   and tapping it would do basically nothing.

00:36:36   And we have those kind of things.

00:36:39   I thought that was gonna be all we were gonna get

00:36:41   until next summer.

00:36:42   Turns out that we get a little bit more

00:36:46   And it's pretty interesting, it's pretty limited,

00:36:49   but it's all more than I thought we'd get.

00:36:52   So what we have in WatchKit so far,

00:36:56   with like the, not quite the native apps,

00:36:59   but like the apps that will run on the watch

00:37:00   that interact with your phone.

00:37:02   The phone is basically running

00:37:04   a very, very limited storyboard runner.

00:37:07   You define in your iOS app bundle,

00:37:11   you define this extension,

00:37:12   and you give it like a static storyboard.

00:37:14   All the graphics and everything

00:37:15   have to be included in that.

00:37:17   Some things can be dynamically generated,

00:37:19   like table rows obviously can be dynamically generated,

00:37:21   but most things are static.

00:37:24   Like you define them at compile time

00:37:26   and the watch OS basically plays through this

00:37:30   and any interaction that's taken,

00:37:32   it communicates back to your iPhone,

00:37:34   to the extension running on your iPhone

00:37:37   to have that do any kind of actual computation.

00:37:39   It's pretty limited and it looks pretty,

00:37:41   I haven't had time to actually write any code with it yet,

00:37:43   but it looks pretty limited in things like any kind of dynamic abilities,

00:37:48   besides table cells and stuff.

00:37:50   What's also very interesting is the layout system.

00:37:53   You can't specify an X and a Y coordinate

00:37:57   for an element that you're putting on screen.

00:37:59   You basically specify, "Here are the elements I want to be on screen,"

00:38:02   and by default, they just flow downwards, they're just stacked,

00:38:06   and it becomes like a scrolling downward view.

00:38:09   And then you can group things into these groups,

00:38:12   and groups can be arranged, they're like sub layouts.

00:38:17   So you can have a group that itself is arranged

00:38:20   with its own little stack or you can have it arranged

00:38:23   horizontally in a stack instead of vertically.

00:38:25   - Finally, all those table-based layout skills

00:38:27   that you've been left withering from the 90s,

00:38:29   they'll be relevant again.

00:38:31   - It's been a long time since I've seen any of this,

00:38:34   but isn't this a lot like Swing?

00:38:35   Remember the original Java UI toolkit?

00:38:38   - Well, there's a lot of you.

00:38:39   I think the first one I've ever seen did this

00:38:41   and we can find a show notes link for it,

00:38:43   see if anyone in the chat remembers is,

00:38:45   GEOS I think, G-E-O-S,

00:38:47   was a GUI with a similar layout paradigm.

00:38:49   It's like, right, I think Swing did it as well.

00:38:51   I forget what it's called.

00:38:52   It's not the packing problem,

00:38:54   but it's a similar type of thing where you,

00:38:58   you just take a bunch of boxes

00:38:59   and fill in the empty space with it.

00:39:00   I think GEOS had a little bit of gravity associated

00:39:03   with it as well.

00:39:04   But yeah, this is not a new way to lay out GUIs,

00:39:07   but it's not a great way to lay out GUIs either

00:39:10   for sophisticated things,

00:39:11   but for a very, very tiny screen,

00:39:13   when I was looking through all the SDK documentation,

00:39:15   it's like they are removing as many options as possible,

00:39:18   rather than making you lay out your UI

00:39:20   the same way you would on a phone or on a Mac,

00:39:23   but just in a small screen, they're saying,

00:39:24   just take away your ability to specify any of this stuff.

00:39:27   And how simple can we make it?

00:39:29   And this is pretty darn simple.

00:39:31   Bunch of boxes, they plunk in,

00:39:34   you get to control those,

00:39:36   you got settings for like foreground color,

00:39:38   background color, margins and spacing.

00:39:40   Again, it's like table-based layout, you know?

00:39:43   Cell padding, cell spacing.

00:39:45   - Yeah, it's a very rudimentary level of control.

00:39:50   And it seems as though multitasking,

00:39:53   it seems like is non-existent for these types of apps.

00:39:56   I'm sure in the future we'll have better multitasking

00:39:58   and I'm sure the watch system apps can probably multitask

00:40:01   to do things like continue playing audio

00:40:03   while you're looking at something.

00:40:04   But from the description, it sounds like

00:40:07   What's most likely to happen here is

00:40:09   when the user interacts with your app,

00:40:12   so when the user launches your app

00:40:14   or responds to your notification,

00:40:15   the extension on your phone launches,

00:40:17   it controls the watch session,

00:40:18   and then as soon as, they said in the video

00:40:20   that when the user stops interacting

00:40:22   with your WatchKit app, then your app is terminated.

00:40:26   So there's basically no multitasking

00:40:28   is what it sounds like.

00:40:29   And all the, so it's very similar in some ways

00:40:33   to the very first iPhone SDK, the iPhone OS 2.0,

00:40:37   the very first SDK for the App Store,

00:40:40   has a lot of similar kinds of restrictions.

00:40:42   In some ways, it's even more restricted than that.

00:40:44   Obviously, they can do a lot of things

00:40:46   that you couldn't do back then.

00:40:48   But I'd say it's a similar level of

00:40:51   permissibility and complexity,

00:40:52   where you're building pretty simple things,

00:40:55   you have pretty basic control over them,

00:40:59   there's a lot of guardrails set up,

00:41:01   there's a lot of restrictions set up,

00:41:03   there's a lot of limitations.

00:41:05   and we're not gonna see angry birds for the watch

00:41:09   in this kind of system.

00:41:10   And that's actually a big thing.

00:41:12   I think games are gonna be pretty much impossible.

00:41:14   I also think we can look at some of the recent

00:41:18   notification center app rejection drama on iPhone.

00:41:22   And looking at both that and some of the hints

00:41:25   they're dropping in the Watch Kit documentation and video,

00:41:28   it seems as though they're going to be more strict

00:41:33   about what you can and can't do in a Watch app.

00:41:35   Like on iPhone, where the frameworks limit you,

00:41:38   you know, if you can do something

00:41:41   without calling a private API,

00:41:43   so if you can do something really crazy,

00:41:45   like if, let's say there was no OpenGL on the iPhone,

00:41:49   if you can just make a buttload of CA layers

00:41:52   and do everything you need with that,

00:41:54   Apple wouldn't reject you for that.

00:41:57   You know, like, whereas on the watch,

00:41:59   and it seems like kind of the new Apple App Store stuff

00:42:02   with some of these new areas that we're allowed to put apps,

00:42:04   it seems like they're gonna be a little more restricted

00:42:07   in things that you can't do,

00:42:10   you actually are not meant to do,

00:42:12   and we won't let you do them.

00:42:14   And so it would not surprise me to see,

00:42:16   like back when the App Store first launched on iPhone,

00:42:18   before it was open, when we had the SDK

00:42:23   and we knew the rules, or at least we thought

00:42:25   we knew the rules, that changed quickly,

00:42:28   but during those few months where we could build apps

00:42:30   but we couldn't launch them yet,

00:42:32   one of the rules in the App Store guidelines originally

00:42:34   was like we're gonna look at your apps

00:42:36   and if they aren't high quality, we might reject them.

00:42:39   And I thought, as well as a bunch of other developers,

00:42:42   I thought that they would actually be pretty strict,

00:42:45   like your app would have to be Apple levels of quality

00:42:48   to be approved in the App Store.

00:42:50   And of course, that ended up not being the case at all.

00:42:52   There's tons of garbage apps in the App Store

00:42:54   because that's kind of an unenforceable standard to keep up.

00:42:58   It kinda seems like they might be trying to do that

00:43:00   with the watch, like with the things they've said,

00:43:04   with some of the implications they've made

00:43:05   and some of the notification center restrictions

00:43:07   we've seen so far, it wouldn't surprise me

00:43:10   if they are a lot more strict about what you can do

00:43:14   in a watch app and how good it has to be to be approved.

00:43:18   - Yeah, I'm curious to see how that goes,

00:43:21   but no matter what, I am really surprised by the fact

00:43:26   that this kind of paired or split apps

00:43:33   where the phone is doing pretty much all the heavy lifting.

00:43:36   I'm surprised that we're seeing that now.

00:43:39   And it's really exciting because that means

00:43:43   whenever the Apple Watch does come out next year,

00:43:45   there should be hopefully a fairly robust ecosystem of apps

00:43:50   available shortly after launch.

00:43:53   And that's really awesome.

00:43:54   And the only thing that you won't be able to do

00:43:56   is run an app where your iPhone isn't nearby.

00:44:00   So the most obvious example of that I can think of

00:44:03   is like a RunKeeper or RunMonster or something like that,

00:44:06   where you want to leave your iPhone at home,

00:44:10   but go for a jog or something along those lines.

00:44:13   - Or maybe your third-party podcast app.

00:44:15   - Yeah, and so something like that won't be permissible yet

00:44:17   or possible yet to your point, Marco,

00:44:20   but pretty much everything else that they've announced

00:44:24   will be available is available.

00:44:26   And that's really exciting,

00:44:28   and I'm really looking forward to it.

00:44:29   So when you think about this implementation here

00:44:31   with all these restrictions we just described,

00:44:34   I can't help but think the entire watch

00:44:36   is acting kind of like, choose your analogy,

00:44:38   either kind of like the push notification service on iOS

00:44:42   or kind of like what I had heard,

00:44:44   I'd never actually confirmed that the old

00:44:46   or possibly the current Apple TV is,

00:44:48   where it's just one process that does

00:44:49   that sort of loads loadable bundles

00:44:51   and that the resources are so constrained,

00:44:54   what they want to have is a single process

00:44:57   running all the time in memory with its working set

00:45:00   with what they can control the CPU use of.

00:45:02   And all it does is sort of receive and load

00:45:07   static packages of simple descriptions of UIs,

00:45:11   basically storyboards or whatever, static assets.

00:45:14   And that's all it does.

00:45:15   And display them and relay information over Bluetooth

00:45:18   to say, the person clicked this button.

00:45:21   You want me to transfer this bundle thing.

00:45:22   You want me to display this thing?

00:45:23   OK, I'll display this thing.

00:45:24   I'll wire this stuff up.

00:45:25   When someone presses, I'll tell you

00:45:26   which button they press and like, and that's it.

00:45:28   And that makes me think like,

00:45:31   why would they launch different processes for that?

00:45:33   Why wouldn't it just be one small process

00:45:37   that's always in memory that is responsible

00:45:39   for doing all these types of things,

00:45:41   glances, actionable notifications,

00:45:43   and these, you know, watch kit,

00:45:45   whatever they're gonna be called,

00:45:46   not quite native app type things.

00:45:48   Maybe that's three separate applications instead of one,

00:45:51   but the whole idea is constrain your resources

00:45:54   in the same way there's only one push notification service

00:45:56   on iOS, like that process will be running.

00:45:59   It will be in memory and it will do work on behalf

00:46:01   of the applications that need to work done

00:46:03   rather than every single application.

00:46:04   This was back before background.

00:46:05   Rather than every single application running

00:46:07   in the background, there'll be one process that runs

00:46:09   in the background and it would tell you,

00:46:10   tell your application when, you know,

00:46:12   basically resource constraints.

00:46:14   And what it's making me think is,

00:46:16   what are the resource constraints of this phone?

00:46:19   Is it memory?

00:46:20   Is it CPU?

00:46:21   Is it battery?

00:46:21   I mean, it's all those things to a degree more than iOS,

00:46:23   but what is the key one that would make

00:46:26   that type of implementation,

00:46:28   assuming it is what they're doing, possible?

00:46:30   And whatever it is, I have to think like,

00:46:33   how are they gonna do native apps on this same hardware?

00:46:37   I mean, that's, I guess that's the real question.

00:46:40   Like, why don't we have native apps now?

00:46:41   And I guess one answer is like,

00:46:42   they're just not ready with the software stack

00:46:44   in the same way they weren't ready,

00:46:45   well, they didn't plan on an iPhone 1.0.

00:46:47   But anyway, the SDK is not ready for the native apps, right?

00:46:52   But as the other part of it that like native apps,

00:46:55   they have to figure out how to let you run native apps

00:46:59   without letting people do something

00:47:00   that will destroy the watch's battery in 15 minutes.

00:47:03   Like, I don't know how this is all gonna work out,

00:47:05   but this seems so incredibly constrained

00:47:07   and makes me think the implementation

00:47:10   is being so careful with everything,

00:47:14   with memory, with CPU, with battery,

00:47:16   that I'm having trouble envisioning

00:47:20   what the native app interface is gonna look like

00:47:23   if this is so constrained.

00:47:25   - Yeah, I mean, part of it, I think you're right

00:47:28   that the tools are most likely the biggest cause

00:47:31   for why we don't have it up front.

00:47:33   But there's also side effects to that.

00:47:37   I think that's the cause,

00:47:39   but there's a couple other fortunate side effects

00:47:40   to that being the case that Apple will benefit from.

00:47:44   One of the biggest is people are going to be forming

00:47:47   their opinions and their evaluations

00:47:49   of the watch's battery life before there are these full native apps. So, you know,

00:47:55   it, you know, because people, you can't tell people like, "Oh, well, you shouldn't

00:47:59   run these things or you shouldn't overuse these types of things because that will negatively

00:48:04   affect battery life." No, people will do whatever they want to do and then they'll

00:48:07   yell at Apple if the battery is not as good as they want it to be. So by restricting what

00:48:11   they can do for the first X months of the thing being out, that is, it's forcing people

00:48:18   to do things the way Apple wants them to be done and to keep things kind of reasonable

00:48:24   during the time when everyone's figuring out what kind of battery life does this thing

00:48:27   get, what is this thing used for.

00:48:29   And secondarily, having that kind of training wheels period where you can't do everything

00:48:33   you want also gives – it kind of forces people to think about like, "Do I really

00:48:41   want these things on a watch?

00:48:42   Like do I really need a native app for whatever function I want?"

00:48:44   Like, I mean, for Overcast, I'm probably gonna have

00:48:47   to make a native app to be able to play

00:48:49   when the phone's not around, like in the jogging scenario.

00:48:52   But for a lot of apps, a watch kit iPhone hybrid app

00:48:56   might be all they need.

00:48:58   And so maybe this is also having the fortunate side benefit

00:49:02   of Apple kind of forcing developers,

00:49:05   if you want to get in early, if you wanna be aggressive

00:49:07   and get into watch kit now,

00:49:09   or get into watch development now,

00:49:11   you have to do it the simple way first.

00:49:13   And then later on when we unveil this,

00:49:16   then you'll be faced with the question of,

00:49:18   do I throw that all away and rewrite it

00:49:22   with this new system or not?

00:49:23   And many developers are gonna choose no.

00:49:26   And that benefits Apple and it benefits the watch

00:49:28   and it benefits users as long as they don't need

00:49:30   all those extra functions they would have been getting

00:49:33   because then there's less for the watch to do.

00:49:35   It gets better battery life, you know, like all these things.

00:49:38   So I think like Apple needs this time

00:49:43   to both let people love the watch for its battery life,

00:49:48   hopefully, and also to force both customers and developers

00:49:53   to not just jump to, oh, I need to port my game

00:49:56   to the watch, or oh, I need to port everything I ever do

00:49:58   to the watch, like to force us to kind of give the watch

00:50:02   a clean start.

00:50:03   - Yeah, I think you're right.

00:50:06   And it's just a really interesting engineering decision

00:50:10   on both the software and the hardware sides

00:50:12   to limit everything, and this is what John was driving at,

00:50:15   to limit everything so severely

00:50:17   in order to presumably preserve battery life.

00:50:20   But before we talk any more about WatchKit,

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00:53:03   All right.

00:53:04   John, any other thoughts on WatchKit?

00:53:06   Yeah, on the resource constraints and everything,

00:53:10   the advantage that the iPhone had,

00:53:13   and maybe the Watch will have too,

00:53:14   was that there was no SDA in the beginning

00:53:16   because you were going to write web apps or whatever,

00:53:18   and then they sort of hastily slapped one together for 2.0,

00:53:21   and it was very immature and didn't do a lot,

00:53:25   and your apps were extremely constrained.

00:53:27   And then slowly over time, we got push notifications,

00:53:30   then we got real backgrounding,

00:53:31   we got multitasking, then we got real backgrounding.

00:53:34   All the things that were slowly added to iOS

00:53:37   came along with advancements in hardware.

00:53:40   Lower power chips, more CPU power, more RAM.

00:53:44   The batteries probably stayed about the same size,

00:53:47   but basically the hardware became more power efficient,

00:53:51   did more with that power, and we definitely got more RAM.

00:53:55   So if the watch is gonna start off

00:53:56   really constrained like this,

00:53:59   and we're gonna have native apps, presumably,

00:54:03   within the first year of the thing,

00:54:05   those native apps you would imagine would be,

00:54:08   have to be like at least as constrained,

00:54:10   probably more constrained than the very first,

00:54:12   what was it, iOS 2.0 was the first SDK?

00:54:15   - Yep.

00:54:16   - Than the very first iOS apps.

00:54:18   So that means no background processing.

00:54:20   Like they already have push notifications,

00:54:22   so they're already up ahead of what iOS apps were

00:54:26   at that time.

00:54:28   It could be even more constrained,

00:54:30   like these two tweets,

00:54:31   or one from Craig Hockenberry saying

00:54:33   that you can't even subclass the WatchKit classes,

00:54:37   WK interface things,

00:54:39   you can't even subclass them with the current paradigm.

00:54:42   And then Pete Burtis replied on Twitter,

00:54:44   it's not like that would help

00:54:46   'cause there's no draw rect for you to override.

00:54:48   They aren't views.

00:54:49   It's just like really constrained way to draw applications.

00:54:52   It's not like, oh, hey,

00:54:54   you can just start drawing whatever you want,

00:54:56   our custom controls do, you know, I have to imagine this is going to be super constrained

00:55:01   and those constraints will only be lifted if and when the watch hardware becomes more

00:55:06   capable because it's not like Apple suddenly discovered how to do multitasking in iOS 4.0

00:55:11   or whatever.

00:55:12   It was like, this is what we can do with the hardware available.

00:55:14   And so everything for the original iPhone, including complete lack of third party apps,

00:55:19   was made so, like Marco said, so you could show like, look how awesome this phone is.

00:55:24   Isn't it amazing?

00:55:25   it was fake, like you can't make a UI that faster.

00:55:27   Well, you can do it if you just have,

00:55:29   if you control everything and put incredible constraints

00:55:32   in everything and have one process running at a time

00:55:34   and have the entire phone dedicated to trying to give you

00:55:36   that smooth animation, right?

00:55:38   And so the watch is going to follow that same path,

00:55:41   not because Apple doesn't know how to do those things,

00:55:43   but because the hardware just isn't ready for it yet,

00:55:45   even more so than the first iPhone.

00:55:47   So I'm really looking forward to seeing how they can get,

00:55:52   how they can hardware themselves out of this situation

00:55:55   to eventually get to the point where the watch hardware

00:55:58   can start to get some of those things

00:56:00   that iOS 3.0 and 4.0 and 5.0 had.

00:56:04   And I think that's gonna be a long road

00:56:05   because as we said when we were talking

00:56:07   about power constraints many, many shows ago,

00:56:10   battery technology, the capacity of batteries

00:56:14   for a given massive battery,

00:56:16   how much energy can you get out of it,

00:56:17   is getting better slowly.

00:56:19   But that, I think what would be,

00:56:21   had a graph that showed it was like 15% year over year,

00:56:23   if you're lucky or something like that.

00:56:26   That's not the way you're gonna get any big wins.

00:56:27   The way you get big wins is by making everything

00:56:29   on the electronics device use less power.

00:56:32   So the CPU uses less power, the screen uses less power.

00:56:36   The radios use less power.

00:56:37   That is the only way forward because you can't rely on like,

00:56:40   well, next year we'll have double the battery capacity.

00:56:42   No, you won't unless you're gonna make the watch

00:56:43   twice as thick or much thicker anyway.

00:56:46   And that finally, this all gets back to the idea

00:56:48   that if you buy the very first Apple Watch,

00:56:52   will your Apple Watch ever have multitasking?

00:56:55   Probably not, the first iPhones didn't, right?

00:56:56   You couldn't run iOS 4.0 or whatever it was.

00:56:59   Will it have background processing?

00:57:00   Not the original iPhone, could not do background processing

00:57:02   because by the time the OS could do that,

00:57:03   it couldn't run on the original iPhone.

00:57:06   And if you're going to buy a piece of hardware

00:57:07   and it's gonna be obsolete

00:57:09   'cause it can't have these features

00:57:10   that we think are gonna be added over the years,

00:57:12   how do you deal with your 10K gold version of the watch?

00:57:15   (laughing)

00:57:16   - Right. - So there we are.

00:57:17   We've come full circle on the Apple Watch again.

00:57:20   I mean, I'm honestly, seeing what we get today in WatchKit,

00:57:24   and as I mentioned earlier, this is actually more

00:57:26   than I expected that we would be able to do,

00:57:29   compared to what we saw earlier.

00:57:33   As we see this, and then also knowing that next fall,

00:57:37   there's gonna be this supposed new SDK with,

00:57:40   or next summer and fall with native apps,

00:57:43   I think you're right.

00:57:44   Unless they're gonna make a new watch next fall,

00:57:47   which would be really terrible,

00:57:49   (laughing)

00:57:50   Like unless there's gonna be like

00:57:51   a six month product cycle there.

00:57:53   I'm kind of surprised, that's why I think

00:57:56   it almost certainly is because of just tools limitations.

00:57:59   That it doesn't make sense that if this is all we can do

00:58:02   for iWatch, or jeez, for Apple Watch 1.0 hardware,

00:58:07   why next fall can we suddenly do more?

00:58:10   Like that doesn't make a lot of sense.

00:58:12   - Yeah, well that's, you know, next fall is when

00:58:15   you're gonna be able to do sort of the,

00:58:17   If you could pretend that third party applications

00:58:20   were available on iOS 1.0 or iPhone OS,

00:58:23   how constrained would they have been?

00:58:26   That's what you're gonna get to do, even more so maybe.

00:58:29   - All right.

00:58:30   - Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

00:58:32   Igloo, Hover, and lynda.com,

00:58:35   and we will see you next week.

00:58:37   (upbeat music)

00:58:39   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

00:58:41   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

00:58:44   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

00:58:46   ♪ Accidental ♪

00:58:47   Oh it was accidental John didn't do any research

00:58:52   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental

00:58:56   Oh it was accidental And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

00:59:05   And if you're into Twitter You can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

00:59:14   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-Marco-Armin S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-Uza

00:59:26   It's accidental (It's accidental)

00:59:29   They didn't mean to (It's accidental)

00:59:32   Accidental (Accidental)

00:59:34   Tech podcast so long

00:59:39   So John, what's going on with your iPhone?

00:59:42   because you've received an iPhone, but is it activated?

00:59:46   What's happening?

00:59:47   - Yeah, I forgot when I ordered it.

00:59:49   Like I ordered it at the beginning of the month, I think.

00:59:51   I mentioned on the show when I had ordered it,

00:59:53   and then it was like expected to ship in seven to 10 days,

00:59:57   and it did, and it finally arrived,

00:59:59   and it arrived on Monday,

01:00:01   and I stayed over in work to sign for it.

01:00:05   And I was all excited, took it out of the box,

01:00:08   and you see that little screen that says hello

01:00:10   several languages and you swipe to the right and then it makes you pick a language and

01:00:15   then it makes you pick the country that you're in.

01:00:18   And then what does it do after that?

01:00:19   Then I think it wants you to connect to either a Wi-Fi network or a cellular network and

01:00:23   I connected it to my Wi-Fi and put in my Wi-Fi password.

01:00:27   And then it says activating your phone and then it says your phone could not be activated

01:00:32   because the activation servers are temporarily unavailable.

01:00:34   This problem persists call, you know, contact to apple.com/support blah blah blah blah.

01:00:39   And I'm like, all right, well, maybe the server had Hiccup there.

01:00:44   I'll try it again.

01:00:45   And I went, you know, there's a try again button at the bottom.

01:00:49   That didn't work.

01:00:50   And I said, well, maybe something weird with my Wi-Fi network.

01:00:51   Let me try it over cellular.

01:00:52   So I turned off the Wi-Fi.

01:00:53   I didn't forget this network.

01:00:55   Tried over cellular, same message.

01:00:57   Activation servers are temporarily unavailable.

01:00:58   I figured what the exact wording of the message was.

01:01:01   Something like that.

01:01:02   Basically, the error messages, you know, have no real bearing on what's actually going on.

01:01:05   But that was the error message I got.

01:01:08   And so I put it aside and continued working for the rest of that day and then tried it

01:01:13   again later and it was still going.

01:01:14   I'm like, "Alright, well it said try again in a few minutes and if the problem persists,"

01:01:17   I'm like, "Well, now the problem is persisting."

01:01:20   So I contacted Verizon to try to figure out what the problem was because it was an activation

01:01:25   problem.

01:01:26   I said, "Hey, I've got this new iPhone, just came out of the box.

01:01:27   I can't activate it."

01:01:29   And there's a little, on the first screen that says "Hello," or in several languages,

01:01:32   there's a little "I" in a circle in the lower right corner.

01:01:35   If you tap that, it gives you all your information

01:01:36   about the phone, like the SIM ID and the IME ID

01:01:39   and all those different numbers.

01:01:40   So I'm like, all right, I have enough information

01:01:42   I can call Verizon here.

01:01:43   So I spent a while talking to Verizon,

01:01:45   eventually got disconnected, called back again,

01:01:48   got disconnected again, like just Verizon's phone support,

01:01:52   their phone system is not great.

01:01:55   The people who work there seem nice enough.

01:01:59   They more or less knew what they were doing

01:02:01   or could transfer me to someone who did.

01:02:02   but this is not good for a phone company.

01:02:06   The audio quality of the phone interface

01:02:08   as you're going through the menus and everything

01:02:09   is just terrible.

01:02:10   It just sounds all staticky and gross.

01:02:13   You get disconnected a lot.

01:02:15   I get disconnected mid-sentence with people.

01:02:16   They're not disconnecting me.

01:02:17   They're in the middle of talking

01:02:18   and then click, click, boom.

01:02:20   And the worst part is, in whatever call center they're in,

01:02:23   you can hear all the conversations going on around them.

01:02:26   I can listen to them.

01:02:28   It's just the basic requirement of a call center.

01:02:29   I shouldn't be able to hear other people's conversations.

01:02:31   like a privacy concern more than anything else. It just sounded like they were calling

01:02:34   from Grand Central Station. It was just so... Grand Central Station is a post office. You're

01:02:38   thinking of Grand Central Terminal. I was waiting for it. Thank you, Marco. Oh, yeah,

01:02:42   yeah, yeah. Frankenstein's monster, right? I know all about it. They're like, "I feel

01:02:48   for these people's work environment." But anyway, they looked everything up, and they're

01:02:52   like, "Okay, well, they went through this thing, and like, 'Well, make sure this number

01:02:55   is activated,' figured out what my phone number is, because I couldn't, since I have a track

01:02:59   phone when you buy the iPhone online you can't port your number during the

01:03:03   online you can only bring it for if it's another Verizon number or something you

01:03:06   can't like basically if you have a track phone and you want to order an Apple

01:03:09   phone online you have to let them give you a new number which is fine whatever

01:03:11   I just wanted to get activated on the new number so Verizon activated my

01:03:14   number told me what it was this is my wife's a Verizon account so I had to go

01:03:18   through this whole rigmarole every time I call explaining that I'm not the

01:03:22   account owner we eventually worked that out so I'm allowed to do this now but

01:03:24   they did a lot of calling her to ask for permission for me to do things anyway

01:03:28   Anyway, it was silly.

01:03:30   And they said like everything is active.

01:03:31   After going through like five or six people

01:03:33   and several calls and several transfers,

01:03:34   I kept working my way up to people

01:03:36   with quieter and quieter offices.

01:03:38   Until I eventually was talking to somebody

01:03:40   unlike my third call in my seventh transfer

01:03:44   who I could not hear anything in the background.

01:03:45   So this person actually had a nice office

01:03:47   and they're like, "Look, everything on our end is active.

01:03:49   Your phone number is activated."

01:03:51   We tried every possible remedy up to and including

01:03:55   taking the SIM out and putting it back in,

01:03:56   which led me to tweet, which I now regret.

01:03:59   Hey, these things don't come with SIM removal tools anymore.

01:04:01   And then for the next month,

01:04:03   I'll be getting tweets from people telling me

01:04:04   whether they did or didn't get a SIM removal tool.

01:04:06   Bottom line is everybody thinks

01:04:08   whatever their experience with phones are,

01:04:10   with iPhones is the same for everybody.

01:04:12   So some people are like, I always get a SIM removal tool.

01:04:15   And other people are like, I have never gotten one.

01:04:17   And other people will tell me

01:04:19   what the Apple store told them about it.

01:04:21   I have no idea.

01:04:22   If there's a SIM removal tool in my case,

01:04:24   I have not yet found it.

01:04:25   Yes, I've looked in the paper packet.

01:04:27   No, it's not connected to the cardboard thing

01:04:29   with a little semicircle thing that folds out,

01:04:31   like many people send me screenshots of.

01:04:34   I'm willing to believe that it's still in there somewhere

01:04:36   and I haven't found it, but anyway, it's not obvious.

01:04:38   It doesn't matter, I used a paperclip.

01:04:39   But anyway, taking the SIM in and out.

01:04:41   - Why don't you delete the tweet?

01:04:42   - I mean, like it was more,

01:04:43   I wasn't really asking a question,

01:04:44   it was just like amusing,

01:04:45   like do these things not come with,

01:04:46   or no, I think I said what the,

01:04:48   and eventually, later in the story,

01:04:50   I said I got on the phone with Apple support

01:04:51   and they told me, I asked about the SIM removal tool

01:04:53   and the person didn't really know,

01:04:54   They're like, "I think it only comes with unlocked phones."

01:04:56   And then people are like, "No, I've bought unlocked phones and never had one."

01:04:59   Or, "I've bought locked phones and I always have one."

01:05:01   Like every possible combination of answer I've gotten from Twitter people.

01:05:04   Yeah, I've bought unlocked phones before, I've bought locked phones before, I've

01:05:09   never gotten a SIM removal tool in any of them.

01:05:10   Yeah, people are like, "Oh, you only get a SIM removal tool if your phone doesn't

01:05:14   come with the SIM?"

01:05:15   Basically, like if there's no SIM inside the phone when you buy it, then you get a

01:05:17   tool, you know.

01:05:18   I guess use a paperclip.

01:05:20   For the longest time, I thought SIM removal tool was a joke.

01:05:22   Yeah, no.

01:05:23   They use liquid metal to make it. Remember the liquid metal thing?

01:05:26   Oh yeah, that's right. Everyone was wondering like what they're gonna use that for and that's kind of it's so far

01:05:30   That's the only thing that we know they've used it for right or we think I don't know if it's ever confirmed that they use

01:05:34   It for it, but it looked kind of liquidy and metal II I have no idea anyway

01:05:37   Yeah, so they bought a whole company just to replace paper clips as much as they possibly as the best paperclip replacement

01:05:44   You could possibly make it's it's it's seamless. It's really true the material now really quickly for the record

01:05:49   I have received definitely one sim removal tool and it was

01:05:52   was encircling the little half circle tab.

01:05:56   - Yeah, I know.

01:05:57   - Which is, yeah, that's what you were describing earlier.

01:05:58   So that was my experience, but we've had, I don't know,

01:06:01   something like six or seven iPhones

01:06:03   between the two of us over the last few years.

01:06:04   I think I've only gotten maybe one of them.

01:06:06   And that never really occurred to me

01:06:08   until you were talking about it earlier today.

01:06:11   - Yeah, the weird thing is a lot of,

01:06:12   all the people telling me that like,

01:06:13   that they didn't have the little semicircular thing,

01:06:15   but that it was kind of buried in with like

01:06:17   the quote unquote manual,

01:06:18   the little paper packets they give you, you know,

01:06:20   and like that it slides down in there

01:06:22   and it's easy to get lost and I can see that happening.

01:06:24   I don't see it in mine yet,

01:06:25   but I haven't torn the thing apart

01:06:26   'cause I don't really care.

01:06:27   Anyway, we did all Verizon during the various calls,

01:06:31   all the Verizon people have to go through

01:06:33   all the brand menus, most of which I tried already anyway,

01:06:35   but I was willing to humor them

01:06:36   because they weren't doing things on their end

01:06:37   or at least said they were in response to these things.

01:06:39   Turning the phone all the way off

01:06:41   and having them do server things,

01:06:42   turn it back on, trying it on cellular or not,

01:06:45   doing a restore from iTunes

01:06:47   where you put it into recovery mode and reinstalling.

01:06:49   And by the way, this is at the same time

01:06:50   of the iOS 8.1.1 release came out.

01:06:53   So people were like, "Oh, that's what the problem is.

01:06:54   Apple servers are down because of the release."

01:06:57   But Apple servers, this is all before I even called

01:06:59   to check their service status page.

01:07:00   Like I had exhausted my possibilities

01:07:02   before calling Verizon, believe me.

01:07:04   And Verizon had me redo a lot of the things

01:07:05   that I had already done, but I'm like, well, whatever.

01:07:07   It was nice because I had already downloaded

01:07:09   all the software updates, so I didn't have to wait

01:07:10   for the 1.9 gig download of iOS 8.1.1 or whatever it was.

01:07:15   - Yeah, before you leave the Verizon topic,

01:07:18   'cause I assumed they did not fix your problem

01:07:20   because they never fix any problems.

01:07:21   Because every time I, so when I was a Verizon wireless

01:07:24   customer for a few years before the iPhone came out,

01:07:27   every time I called Verizon to do anything to my account,

01:07:30   they messed it up.

01:07:31   Like whether it was adding a data plan, removing services,

01:07:34   like changing things, asking a question,

01:07:36   every single time they touched the account,

01:07:38   they messed it up in some horrible way

01:07:40   that would cause me to get like triple billed,

01:07:42   or they would like remove the plan

01:07:44   for the first half of the month that was there,

01:07:46   so then I'd be billed like the per minute rate,

01:07:48   and all this crazy stuff they would do,

01:07:50   everything they did would screw something up.

01:07:53   - Yeah, I was kind of afraid to ask them about that

01:07:54   because when I did the,

01:07:56   I ordered this from the Apple online store,

01:07:58   which I had to explain to several Verizon people

01:08:00   and they're very confused about this.

01:08:02   I wanted to say store.apple.com, that's where I went

01:08:05   because they thought I was in an Apple retail store.

01:08:06   Like, "Oh, they should have activated that for you

01:08:08   before you left the store."

01:08:09   I'm like, "No, store.apple.com."

01:08:11   Anyway, when you do that, it asks you,

01:08:13   are you adding an existing line?

01:08:15   And it wants you to put in the previous number.

01:08:16   I answer my wife's iPhone line and all of her information and it asks you for crazy information about your Verizon account your username

01:08:23   Your billing password which is different than your regular password

01:08:27   Last four digits of your social security number

01:08:31   The the Verizon phone thing has you this is like I think I've told the story before the first time I was on a

01:08:37   telephone answering tree type thing and I got to a menu that wanted me to say what I wanted to happen and I froze because I

01:08:44   was like

01:08:45   What do you mean say could they possibly have a system that it you know with a limited vocabulary could they do speech right?

01:08:51   So my brain is just trying to think of like this is like whatever

01:08:53   1987 or whenever they first came out like trying to think is this technically possible or someone playing a joke on me

01:08:58   So anyway this one. I think this is the first time this has happened to me

01:09:03   They wanted they said please enter the password for your Verizon wireless account, and I'm like I'm calling you on a phone

01:09:11   It's got a number pad. Do you want me to enter?

01:09:15   my path, but that would reduce the possibilities by like a factor of

01:09:19   like I'm trying to do the math in my head of like

01:09:22   how many passwords are now hashed to the same bucket because like they you know that the seven key is three different letters on it or

01:09:29   And here's the best thing about that

01:09:31   I got I got to be an old pro at this because I called them a million times

01:09:34   every time it said that like I sort of figured out their menu system to like

01:09:38   Hold down the zero key then speak a certain phrase to get to the voice thing and then get eventually will ask you to enter

01:09:43   to your Verizon password, which you type out

01:09:47   on the number pad, like just pick whichever number

01:09:49   has the letter you want, the capitals, lowercase,

01:09:51   don't matter, and you know, if it's anywhere

01:09:53   in these group of letters, doesn't matter.

01:09:55   Every time I did it, the first time,

01:09:56   it told me the password didn't match.

01:09:58   I was willing to believe the first two or three times

01:10:00   that I had mistyped it the first time,

01:10:01   but it always worked on the second try.

01:10:03   It's like the seventh time I was doing it,

01:10:04   I'm like, you know what, this never works on the first try.

01:10:06   Maybe the first letter is missed because I'm not,

01:10:09   I don't know what the problem is.

01:10:10   Anyway, their system is very weird.

01:10:12   So I did all that stuff and they basically did everything

01:10:15   they could do on their end.

01:10:16   Like I exhausted, I tweeted this,

01:10:17   I exhausted all support possibilities with Verizon.

01:10:20   Not because they were not doing what they could,

01:10:21   but basically they did everything they could.

01:10:23   They said this number is active, it's active in our system,

01:10:25   here's what it is, here's all this, you know,

01:10:27   like your account isn't good standing,

01:10:29   it's connected to the right account.

01:10:30   It's like just everything as far as they're concerned

01:10:33   is working.

01:10:34   And I was totally willing to believe that

01:10:35   because it seems to me like this software I'm going through,

01:10:38   these white screens at the beginning of iPhone setup,

01:10:42   connect to Apple servers to do something.

01:10:44   Apple servers then probably connect to Verizon servers,

01:10:46   but the bottom line is I totally imagine

01:10:48   that I was using Apple software on an Apple device

01:10:50   that's connecting to an Apple server,

01:10:52   and it's giving me a response that says something,

01:10:55   and I'm getting the, you know, server's unavailable,

01:10:58   even though on Apple status page

01:10:59   it says the server is available.

01:11:00   So that was the end of Verizon.

01:11:02   And the Verizon helpfully connected me,

01:11:05   transferred me directly from Verizon

01:11:06   to an Apple support person,

01:11:08   to a knowledgeable Apple support person,

01:11:09   not just like, you know,

01:11:10   So they have like a direct line in on like the good,

01:11:13   not the, you know what I mean?

01:11:14   Like the higher tier support people.

01:11:16   So I didn't have to go through the lower tier

01:11:18   of Apple support,

01:11:19   but connected to the higher tier support person.

01:11:21   And the Apple support person was excellent.

01:11:23   It was clear they were a, you know,

01:11:25   again, no voices in the background, very helpful,

01:11:28   very professional.

01:11:29   So it was the top tier Verizon person I got to.

01:11:31   So it was a nice, they were nice.

01:11:32   They transferred me over.

01:11:33   I explained the situation.

01:11:35   They looked at everything on there and he,

01:11:38   The Apple guy started by explaining to me

01:11:40   how the system works on their own,

01:11:42   which I've since forgotten,

01:11:43   but it's something like what I was saying before.

01:11:44   Like the iPhone connects to an Apple server,

01:11:47   the Apple server tries to authenticate

01:11:49   with the Verizon server and wants to get a response back

01:11:51   so it can proceed or whatever.

01:11:53   It seemed to me that basically,

01:11:54   if I could have a DNS poison the iPhone

01:11:57   and spoof the Verizon server

01:11:58   and figured out what the correct response is,

01:12:00   I could have gotten past these white screens

01:12:01   and like that everything was fine.

01:12:03   Like as far as Verizon is concerned,

01:12:04   all I needed to do was get past this software.

01:12:06   You know, there's probably more to it than that.

01:12:07   But anyway, they said they couldn't figure out

01:12:10   what the problem was, but they would open a ticket for it

01:12:12   and get back to me the next day.

01:12:14   So that was the end of that support thing.

01:12:15   It was like several hours,

01:12:17   most of it spent on hold or waiting for things.

01:12:19   So it wasn't really that bad.

01:12:21   The next day came and the Apple people gave me

01:12:24   their direct number and told the guy told me

01:12:25   he was gonna be off today, but you know,

01:12:27   said you can call this number to get,

01:12:29   anyway, someone else called me back.

01:12:31   And they said they figured out what the problem was.

01:12:34   And it was some problem with, I forget what it is,

01:12:36   not provisioning profile, it's just in my head

01:12:38   from all the Apple developers I see complaining

01:12:40   on Twitter all the time, but like,

01:12:42   something having to do with the profile for the phone

01:12:44   was screwed up in there, and anyway,

01:12:45   the bottom line, it was something that Apple could fix.

01:12:47   And Apple said they did fix it,

01:12:49   and so I tried to activate my phone again,

01:12:50   and I got farther, and it said,

01:12:52   your phone number is blah, blah, blah, is that correct?

01:12:54   I'm like, yep, that's what Verizon told me,

01:12:55   that's supposed to be my phone number,

01:12:56   and I hit the next button, I still got the error,

01:12:59   so I had to call Apple back again,

01:13:01   and they said, you need to do something special,

01:13:02   which I don't wanna describe,

01:13:03   because it's probably some terrible security flaw

01:13:06   that they don't want revealed.

01:13:08   But anyway, there was something special I had to do

01:13:10   on the phone to get past that process.

01:13:12   I did it, I got past that process, my phone was up

01:13:15   and I'm happy.

01:13:16   So it was maybe 30 hours, 36 hours after I got the phone

01:13:21   plus like maybe three or four hours on hold

01:13:24   with various people that I actually did activate my phone.

01:13:27   The next step of course is to get my old number ported

01:13:30   and I began that process with Verizon.

01:13:33   And when my wife got her number ported,

01:13:35   Took a couple days for it to activate.

01:13:36   But at least I have a working iPhone right now

01:13:38   with a phone number that will soon go away

01:13:40   as soon as my old number gets ported to it.

01:13:43   - All right, so has your life been changed thus far?

01:13:48   - No, although I had the fun ceremony today

01:13:50   where like when I got the phone out of the package,

01:13:52   I didn't put the leather case on it,

01:13:53   the case that I've had for a week or whatever.

01:13:56   I wanted to get the phone set up first

01:13:57   before I put the case on it.

01:13:58   And I'm like, this was a good plan

01:14:00   because if I have to return this phone

01:14:02   because there's something hardware-wise wrong with it,

01:14:04   which by the way, I didn't think there was.

01:14:05   Lots of people were tweeting at me,

01:14:06   "Why don't you go to the Apple store?

01:14:07   Don't you have an Apple retail store?"

01:14:08   But my nerd Spidey sense was telling me

01:14:13   there is nothing wrong with this phone hardware wise.

01:14:14   Like I could look at it, everything worked.

01:14:16   It seemed to, all the radios seemed to work correctly.

01:14:18   The SIM looked fine.

01:14:19   Like it did not seem like that I needed my phone

01:14:21   to be swapped.

01:14:22   Although many people tweeted to me

01:14:23   that when they had similar problems,

01:14:24   they had to get their phone swapped to get it activated.

01:14:26   I felt like this was all happening on the server side

01:14:28   and it actually was all happening on the server side.

01:14:31   But anyway, I was putting off putting the case on

01:14:33   until it was working.

01:14:34   I finally got the thing working and got to springboard

01:14:38   or whatever, then finally I could put the case on it.

01:14:40   Now it has become my iPhone case and all.

01:14:42   And leather case is pretty nice so far.

01:14:45   It's not changed my life otherwise.

01:14:47   - You've said more about the case

01:14:48   than you have about the phone.

01:14:49   - Yes, seriously.

01:14:50   Well, I had an iPhone 6 before.

01:14:52   I know we talked at length about all the sizing things.

01:14:55   I haven't decided, I think leather case does make it nice.

01:14:58   Like I said, I've always had a case

01:15:00   on my handheld iOS devices.

01:15:03   So this is not anything new for me.

01:15:04   In fact, it was new for me to use it

01:15:06   without a case for a week,

01:15:07   but I think it definitely improves with the case.

01:15:10   - Well, but this is the first time

01:15:12   that you're really getting to move into a phone, right?

01:15:14   - Well, I just started that.

01:15:16   So I did that, when I was on the phone,

01:15:19   I did a setup with this new iPhone,

01:15:20   and I finally did a restore from iTunes to,

01:15:22   by the way, iTunes, I hate it so much.

01:15:24   I did a backup of my iPod Touch

01:15:26   right before I knew I was gonna do this.

01:15:28   And then, okay, now I'm gonna plug in the iPhone,

01:15:30   and I'm gonna restore from backup,

01:15:31   And it says, "What do you want to restore from?"

01:15:33   And I see like seven backups.

01:15:35   Some of them are like iPhone 4G

01:15:37   that I know are like old, right?

01:15:39   I don't want those.

01:15:40   About 50% of them have dates after them.

01:15:43   And then there's three called John's iPod Touch

01:15:46   that don't have dates next to it.

01:15:47   - Nice.

01:15:48   - I'm like, "Why do some have dates

01:15:50   and some don't have dates?

01:15:51   That makes no sense."

01:15:52   But of course, me being a clever longtime computer user

01:15:55   immediately knew the solution to this problem.

01:15:57   Can any of you guess?

01:15:58   - To look at the files and see their modification dates?

01:16:01   - No, 'cause the files are in,

01:16:02   don't you know what mobile backups directory looks like?

01:16:03   There are these big giant hash things.

01:16:05   - Yeah, no, I'm honestly kind of surprised

01:16:06   'cause you just moved into an SSD also.

01:16:08   How are you still keeping all these backups?

01:16:10   You should only have like the one device you use.

01:16:13   - I have a terabyte SSD.

01:16:15   I did amazing house cleaning.

01:16:16   Like I moved tons of stuff.

01:16:17   (laughing)

01:16:18   I moved like all my video and movies to the Synology,

01:16:21   you know, and like I have plenty of room with.

01:16:23   But no, like the mobile backups directory is all

01:16:26   like the directories are named big long hexadecimal.

01:16:28   - Yeah, they're all like G IDs.

01:16:30   - Right, no, no, the solution is,

01:16:31   so all I need to do is plug in my iPod Touch,

01:16:35   change the name of my iPod Touch

01:16:36   to something that doesn't exist in the list,

01:16:39   do another backup, then just look for that crazy name

01:16:40   I just put in.

01:16:42   - Oh, that is not how I would have done it, but cool.

01:16:44   - But that's exactly how,

01:16:46   to work in software long enough,

01:16:49   you learn this is the immediate solution to the problem.

01:16:52   I don't care what the actual problem is.

01:16:53   I don't care why some don't have dates, just make work now.

01:16:56   (laughing)

01:16:56   And so I change it to like, you know,

01:16:59   iPod touch, this is the one, and then did a backup,

01:17:02   and then plugged in my iPhone and said,

01:17:04   where do you wanna restore from?

01:17:05   I wanna restore from iPod touch, this is the one,

01:17:06   which by the way, still did not have a date,

01:17:08   but that was the right one.

01:17:09   And then what I learned is for the second handheld

01:17:12   iOS device in a row, I'm screwed on my icons

01:17:16   because I went from the 3.5-inch iPod touch to the four inch

01:17:21   and I had an extra row of icons,

01:17:24   and now I just went from the four inch to the six,

01:17:26   and now I need an extra row of icons again.

01:17:27   So I spent a while tonight rearranging my icons

01:17:31   to try to figure out how I'm gonna fill these out.

01:17:32   And I'm basically rearranging everything

01:17:34   into being within the new thumb sweep.

01:17:36   So like the top row is dead to me now.

01:17:38   I gotta take all the things that I used to have up there

01:17:39   'cause they were important, like Safari was upper left.

01:17:41   Safari's not upper left anymore, so.

01:17:43   - Wait, so this is even more, I think,

01:17:46   revealing than that you leave the camera shutter sound on.

01:17:50   You're saying you don't leave any empty rows

01:17:51   and that you actually hate empty rows so much

01:17:53   that you fill them when they occur?

01:17:55   - Why would I leave empty rows?

01:17:57   My iOS background has always been complete black.

01:18:00   There is nothing behind my icons, it's complete black.

01:18:03   But my lock screen is a picture of my dog.

01:18:05   - Is it your extended dog?

01:18:07   - It is, it is my extended dog.

01:18:08   I had to use my extended dogs, I forget who it was,

01:18:11   but someone with Photoshop skills extended the background

01:18:13   on a dog picture I had and finally I got to use it.

01:18:16   So that's my lock screen, but my home screen is all black.

01:18:19   Why would I leave an empty row?

01:18:20   What would I be, especially an empty row at the bottom,

01:18:22   that's prime thumb reaching area.

01:18:24   - Wow.

01:18:25   Well, the argument in the past has been both it looks nice and also can give you some forgiving

01:18:31   dead swipe zone if you want to flip between pages more easily.

01:18:35   You don't need a swipe zone.

01:18:36   You grab anywhere and swipe, it will...

01:18:38   I've never accidentally launched an app while swiping home screens.

01:18:42   Never, not once.

01:18:43   No, you don't need a swipe zone, but it helps.

01:18:45   It's nice.

01:18:46   It may make you feel better, but have you ever accidentally launched an app by trying

01:18:50   to film a swipe?

01:18:52   Probably not, but I always leave it in empty rows.

01:18:54   The empty row is the only purpose for an empty row.

01:18:57   What we discussed in the past show is if you have a picture of your kids or something you

01:19:00   want to see or a beautiful background or a sunset or whatever, you want to see more of

01:19:04   the picture.

01:19:05   That is the only, I think, legitimate reason for the empty row.

01:19:08   Swipe area does not strike me as a legitimate reason.

01:19:11   I keep an empty row at the bottom as well, and I believe it was because Marco had said

01:19:15   something and I was like, "You know, let me try that."

01:19:17   And especially with the new phone, I really think pretty much anything I use on a regular

01:19:23   basis is indeed on the first screen with the empty row.

01:19:28   But the empty row has to be on the bottom, doesn't it?

01:19:30   You can't get an empty row on the top, right?

01:19:32   No, which would be...

01:19:33   Well, you can if you use underscores.

01:19:34   Oh, the black icons, yeah.

01:19:36   Right.

01:19:37   That should tell you.

01:19:38   The fact that you have to use black icons, what are you getting out of that empty row?

01:19:42   It doesn't even make it symmetrical because you still have the dock at the bottom, right?

01:19:46   Yeah.

01:19:47   I don't know.

01:19:48   I just feel like it looks cleaner that way.

01:19:50   It makes no logical sense.

01:19:51   I'll be the first to tell you, but I don't know. I just,

01:19:54   I like it better that way. And like I said,

01:19:55   anything that I use on a regular basis is on that first screen,

01:19:59   even with the empty row, you get a bigger phone, but then you don't put,

01:20:02   you leave the row empty. It's just, well, no, no, I, but I added a row.

01:20:06   So I have one more row than I used to.

01:20:08   You're just always an off by one error. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, no, I,

01:20:14   I backfilled. I had to,

01:20:15   I had to promote a bunch of new things to the front page.

01:20:17   I have a bunch of apps in the front page that don't really use that much.

01:20:19   So what, what did you promote? Are you willing to share?

01:20:21   I put reader on the front page, even though I basically only read that on my iPad.

01:20:26   I put Instagram on my front page.

01:20:29   I guess I do use that a lot.

01:20:30   Yeah, have you ever posted a picture to Instagram?

01:20:33   If you followed me, you'd know that.

01:20:34   I could swear I follow you, and I do not think—

01:20:36   I've posted like a grand total of five pictures to Instagram ever, but I look at other people's

01:20:40   pictures, basically what I'm doing.

01:20:42   What else do I have on the front page?

01:20:43   Well, now you have an iPhone.

01:20:45   Now you actually can take a picture of your breakfast every morning and put it on your

01:20:49   phone.

01:20:50   going to change having an iPhone will not change my habit of not posting

01:20:54   pictures for my life that is not not what I do usually you can make an

01:20:57   artistic statement and just post a blank black picture every day no are you

01:21:02   Syracuse on Instagram no I I forget what my Instagram name is but like every very

01:21:08   I joined so late because I was not you know I didn't have an iPhone why am I

01:21:11   gonna use Instagram by the time I joined Instagram which was like two years ago I

01:21:14   think every variation of my name was taken so I am some big long crazy thing

01:21:18   I'll I'll send you I don't even know if I follow you I follow Marco. Oh, thanks. I don't know

01:21:24   I should follow you now. You're gonna post something might be interested in

01:21:26   What baby or yeah, baby pictures instead of like constant pictures of your food?

01:21:31   My tolerance for my tolerant pictures of what people are eating is very low

01:21:34   No, no, if you look at my Instagram feed profile, whatever. It's actually very little food, but an extraordinary amount of cars and

01:21:42   Maybe I should I should do that. Okay. Yes, see maybe I am following. Let me see

01:21:47   Where's I can't this app kills me the stupid icons in the bottom little house magnifying glass

01:21:51   Circle in a square heart favorite thing people who am I following? I'm gonna guess if I hit the people icon

01:21:59   Yeah, is it right? Hey, I got it. No, wait. No, that's just me. It says yeah in the upper right

01:22:03   Follower is 26. I'm following 26 people do I tap 26? That's actually a button

01:22:08   Can we have this be a new segment on the show just John does it UI review of an app?

01:22:12   Well, they are alphabetical it looks like

01:22:15   What is your ukc list? Mm-hmm?

01:22:18   Yeah, I'm following you oh and you are the way may I share your name or is it a secret no

01:22:24   It's not a secret you can see all five of his picture John C, Syracuse

01:22:28   Yeah, and I was already following you and I do recall the beach pictures now that I'm looking at them again

01:22:33   I posted ten pictures total lifetime now. Is that like a firm Catholic?

01:22:38   Are you are you planning on posting any more ever or do you want to keep it at a good round number?

01:22:41   - No, I don't think I'm doing Instagram right

01:22:43   because all these pictures were not taken with an iOS.

01:22:46   Well, that's not true.

01:22:46   A couple of them are taken with an iOS device,

01:22:48   but most of them were taken with my Canon Super Zoom camera

01:22:51   when I was on vacation.

01:22:52   And some of them are,

01:22:53   but the first one is a scan of a picture from 1979.

01:22:57   So that wasn't taken with an iPhone either.

01:22:59   (laughing)

01:23:01   - I definitely have started cheating

01:23:04   and using the Micro Four Thirds camera that we got

01:23:08   and posting some of those pictures to Instagram,

01:23:10   which I will be the first to tell you is indeed cheating,

01:23:13   but I don't really care.

01:23:14   - I don't understand why that's cheating.

01:23:15   Like, are you sharing images from your life

01:23:17   or is it like a video game

01:23:19   where you're trying to use your crappy camera

01:23:21   attached to your iOS device to take good pictures?

01:23:23   I'm not interested in the video game.

01:23:25   I'm only interested in the pictures from people's life.

01:23:28   - Oh, and that's why I started cheating

01:23:30   and I am not being repentant about it, but.

01:23:33   - While we're complaining about Instagram, by the way,

01:23:34   am I the only person in the entire world

01:23:37   that reads Instagram like I read Twitter?

01:23:40   I would think this would be a more common thing.

01:23:41   You know, Twitter, the Twitter application I use,

01:23:45   when I launch it, puts me where I last left off.

01:23:49   And then I can scroll, read, treat, read, treat,

01:23:50   and then hit the home screen, and I'm back, right?

01:23:53   When I launch it again, it's right where I left off.

01:23:56   And obviously if I wait two days,

01:23:57   I'm gonna be missing stuff and go.

01:23:58   But within like 15, 20 minutes, an hour, two hours,

01:24:03   it picks up where I left off.

01:24:05   Every time I launch Instagram, it scrolls me to the top,

01:24:07   and I have to scroll backwards 75 pictures

01:24:09   to find out where, like, do people think I don't care

01:24:12   about the people I follow?

01:24:12   I'm not interested in seeing that picture.

01:24:14   Like, what's the point of the application?

01:24:16   I follow these people 'cause I wanna see the pictures.

01:24:17   Now I have to scroll backwards until I find the one picture

01:24:19   of like, whatever, you know, tree or something that I,

01:24:22   I'm like, was that the last picture I saw?

01:24:24   The worst part is because a lot of people tweet

01:24:25   the same things they put on Instagram.

01:24:26   It's like, oh, I've seen that picture already.

01:24:28   I must be up to that point.

01:24:29   But no, because I just saw that one

01:24:30   because it was on Twitter.

01:24:31   - Yep.

01:24:32   - This is basic functionality for Instagram.

01:24:33   This is a billion dollar company.

01:24:35   They can't send me back to where I was

01:24:36   last time I launched the application.

01:24:38   or doesn't want to.

01:24:39   - I could not agree more.

01:24:40   - It actually ended up being worth a lot less than ability

01:24:41   'cause Facebook stock tanked.

01:24:43   - Well, whatever.

01:24:44   Point is they can retain a little bit more state

01:24:46   than they are.

01:24:47   - Yeah.

01:24:48   - Now that does drive me absolutely nuts,

01:24:50   the not holding your position thing.

01:24:53   - I've never read a complaint about that either.

01:24:55   I follow a lot of people who are heavy Instagram users.

01:24:57   So apparently other people don't use Instagram

01:24:59   the way I do.

01:25:00   - Oh, I do.

01:25:01   Well, you and I are of the same mold,

01:25:02   cut from the same mold, whatever the phrase is.

01:25:05   And I agree with you.

01:25:06   They broke the cloth when they made us, Casey.

01:25:09   - Yeah, that too, or whatever.

01:25:10   I know I'm the worst, I don't really care.

01:25:14   - We gotta get Jon using Vine.

01:25:16   - Oh, don't get me started on Vine.

01:25:18   - 'Cause Vine, the Vine app is like the Instagram app,

01:25:21   but a little bit worse in almost every regard.

01:25:24   - Don't you remember when Vine first came out?

01:25:26   People would tweet Vines, and you could tap the Vine URL,

01:25:31   and it would launch in Safari.

01:25:32   - Oh, that's right, we did a whole thing about this.

01:25:34   - On your iPad and you couldn't watch the Vine.

01:25:37   - Yep.

01:25:38   - On any iPad, at least certainly on the iPad.

01:25:40   And I think sometimes some Vines would half play

01:25:43   and it was like, how long did this go on?

01:25:45   Months?

01:25:46   - A lot longer than it should have.

01:25:47   - Yeah, and this was, it was what, like 2012 or something?

01:25:50   Like the iPad had been out for a while at that point.

01:25:52   - Yeah, and it was just like,

01:25:53   I guess that market's not important.

01:25:54   We don't want people in iOS to be able to watch our Vines

01:25:57   when someone tweets them.

01:25:59   But let's not bother making this thing work

01:26:02   in mobile Safari.

01:26:03   It's a minor browser we're not interested in.

01:26:05   - And you will never forgive them for it.

01:26:07   - I go through momentary,

01:26:08   like moments where I'm really enamored with Vine,

01:26:13   but those moments last like 45 seconds

01:26:15   when I think of something clever to Vine.

01:26:17   And then I almost have no use for it outside of that.

01:26:22   I don't know.

01:26:24   It seems like a great idea.

01:26:25   I just never really use it.

01:26:26   - Yeah, I'm not into it.

01:26:27   I don't see myself ever posting a Vine.

01:26:29   Sometimes you can see ones that are clever,

01:26:31   but I just feel like do it on YouTube instead.

01:26:35   - Well, it's a very different thing.

01:26:37   - I know, but like at least YouTube has a client ecosystem

01:26:41   where I feel confident that I can watch what you produce

01:26:44   instead of it being some sort of game

01:26:46   where I have to try to get my,

01:26:48   try to get your 30 second movie to play

01:26:51   or three second or 10 second or whatever the hell it is.

01:26:52   - Six.

01:26:53   - See, I kind of feel the opposite.

01:26:55   Like I hate watching anything on YouTube

01:26:57   because YouTube is such garbage itself.

01:26:59   Like the experience of watching it on YouTube

01:27:01   terrible, it's always covered in all these little rectangles and ads and everything,

01:27:03   the apps are terrible and like I know there's all this great stuff going on in the YouTube

01:27:09   ecosystem, all this great like stuff. I even have like a few things I've subscribed to

01:27:13   because like things like I aspirationally want to watch YouTube frequently so I never

01:27:18   actually do but there's you know funny stuff like CGP Grey's videos or like Dave Whiskas'

01:27:24   new video like stuff I want to follow and I just never go to YouTube to watch it because

01:27:29   I just hate everything about YouTube.

01:27:33   - They have the YouTube app,

01:27:35   my one complaint with the YouTube app

01:27:36   is they did an opposite Instapaper,

01:27:38   where I wanna end up using YouTube like I use Instapaper,

01:27:41   which is probably not a healthy way to use it,

01:27:43   but it's the way I use it,

01:27:44   where everything I look at that I'm interested in,

01:27:46   I'm like, I don't have time to read that now,

01:27:47   but I will read later.

01:27:48   And I do it like crazy,

01:27:49   so much so that my Instapaper queue is gigantic.

01:27:53   And I know I'm never gonna get, things go by,

01:27:56   I just keep shoving on this queue,

01:27:57   and every once in a while I go back through it

01:27:58   and read stuff, but there are things

01:28:00   I'm never gonna get back to.

01:28:01   But the key feature of Instapaper

01:28:03   with regard to this workflow is

01:28:05   that when I launch the app,

01:28:06   the thing at the top of the app

01:28:07   is the most recent thing that I added.

01:28:09   So it gives me a fighting chance.

01:28:11   YouTube, on the other hand,

01:28:13   puts things in the watch later thing at the end.

01:28:15   So when I launch the YouTube application

01:28:17   and go to my watch later list,

01:28:18   I have to scroll and then it says,

01:28:20   click here for more, load, scroll,

01:28:23   click here for more, load, scroll,

01:28:25   click here for more, load.

01:28:27   And then I get down to the one I added like,

01:28:29   and it's just ridiculous.

01:28:30   And I think I maybe have a hundred and something

01:28:32   in my watch later queue,

01:28:33   which I think is not unreasonable

01:28:35   considering the size of my Instapaper queue,

01:28:37   which Marco knew when he was running the thing

01:28:38   and probably doesn't want to know now,

01:28:40   and it's ridiculous, but that really hampers my ability to go

01:28:44   and I still do it

01:28:44   'cause I still go back down there and get stuff.

01:28:46   And then after I watched them,

01:28:47   I tried to delete them from the watch later queue

01:28:49   and then the YouTube app tells me

01:28:50   there was an error trying to delete them.

01:28:51   And I try to remind myself to go delete them

01:28:53   from the web interface later.

01:28:54   - Nice.

01:28:55   Now, what I would recommend is,

01:28:57   'cause I only follow support choice of words,

01:29:00   but I only subscribe-ish to a couple of YouTube channels,

01:29:05   CGP Grey being one, and Whiskuses,

01:29:09   Better Elevations, another.

01:29:10   And what I've done is gone to their video page

01:29:14   or their uploads page,

01:29:16   and then grabbed an RSS feed from there

01:29:18   and just stuck that in Feed Wrangler.

01:29:20   And I find that that works pretty well

01:29:22   because it just is another RSS item.

01:29:25   Whereas if I had to go to like the YouTube app

01:29:27   in order to check these things out,

01:29:29   I would never watch them.

01:29:31   - Yeah, the app isn't great,

01:29:32   but like I subscribe to a bunch of channels too.

01:29:34   Like some of the ones you mentioned also

01:29:37   the Vihearts channel is great

01:29:38   and the secret Vihearts Vihearts channel

01:29:40   and what is it that sequelitis one

01:29:43   that is infrequently updated.

01:29:45   There's a whole bunch of good things to subscribe to,

01:29:47   but like YouTube has this problem

01:29:49   where it's really good related searches

01:29:51   because my children navigate YouTube entirely

01:29:54   by going to one video that leads to another

01:29:56   that leads to another, like that is their interface.

01:29:58   And it works amazingly.

01:29:59   It's like, how did they even find this?

01:30:00   It's just because one thing led to another.

01:30:02   They click on something that interests them

01:30:03   and it is an entirely viable way.

01:30:05   It's like their version of channel surfing.

01:30:07   Instead of just flipping through the channels or whatever,

01:30:09   it amazes me the things they find through this, you know,

01:30:11   sort of word association thing.

01:30:12   Without ever typing anything, all they do is click.

01:30:14   So that works great.

01:30:15   But when I find something that says like, you know,

01:30:19   how to cook some meal part three of seven,

01:30:23   Like, show me where the other parts are.

01:30:25   Sometimes they're in related videos.

01:30:28   Like, it's amazingly good at showing you

01:30:29   here's part four, part five, part one,

01:30:31   but you'll be missing part two.

01:30:32   And you'll be like, for crying out loud.

01:30:34   The person who put up these videos

01:30:36   is trying to give you the metadata.

01:30:38   Like, if you put a field that said,

01:30:39   like maybe this field exists and people just don't use it,

01:30:41   I don't know, that said, this is a multi-part series

01:30:43   and this is part two, give me arrow keys to show.

01:30:46   And those are called playlists and they exist or whatever,

01:30:48   but anytime I land on one of those,

01:30:50   like, it should know, if it says part one in the title,

01:30:52   I want the other parts.

01:30:53   And if the people didn't enter the metadata

01:30:54   and didn't make a playlist, YouTube can do that for me.

01:30:57   There's nothing more frustrating

01:30:58   than trying to search for part two.

01:31:00   When you've got all the other parts

01:31:01   and you just can't find it because, you know,

01:31:03   it doesn't come up in the search

01:31:04   and it's not related videos and it's just, yeah.

01:31:07   Things could be improved greatly.

01:31:08   I understand your frustration with the interface,

01:31:10   but my, like I said, my bottom line is,

01:31:12   can I watch the video?

01:31:14   And when I watch YouTube videos,

01:31:15   especially on an iOS device,

01:31:16   you just make it full screen and everything's black anyway.

01:31:18   So that's, I feel like I can see the content

01:31:22   if I can somehow find it.

01:31:24   - So you really love YouTube and Instagram, huh?

01:31:26   - I like YouTube more than Vine, I'll tell you that.

01:31:29   [BLANK_AUDIO]