91: Press Agree to Drive


00:00:00   - Pfft, denied.

00:00:01   Reject this offer immediately.

00:00:04   Furthermore, declare war against that podcast.

00:00:06   (electronic beeping)

00:00:07   - I think we have some exciting news.

00:00:10   - We do?

00:00:10   - I think it's time that we reach

00:00:12   the largest daily audience in the world

00:00:14   by connecting everyone to their world

00:00:15   via our information sharing and distribution platform

00:00:18   product and be one of the top revenue generating

00:00:20   internet companies in the world.

00:00:21   - Who puts revenue generation in your statement?

00:00:24   - That was in the mission statement?

00:00:25   - Isn't that like implied?

00:00:28   Like, we also want to make a lot of,

00:00:30   not make a lot of money,

00:00:31   we want a lot of money to flow through our corporation.

00:00:34   Hopefully, eventually our costs will be below that amount

00:00:37   and we'll realize some profit,

00:00:38   but really what we mostly want to concentrate on

00:00:40   is just throughput, you know?

00:00:42   Make it up in volume.

00:00:43   Just lots of revenue, that's our mission statement.

00:00:46   It's just so, it aims so low.

00:00:49   - Well, and to be fair, they corrected us,

00:00:52   this is not Twitter's new mission statement,

00:00:55   this is Twitter's new strategy statement.

00:00:58   I'm not entirely sure what the difference is.

00:01:00   Maybe this is just 'cause I'm not from this planet

00:01:02   and business people apparently are.

00:01:04   - No, it's the opposite.

00:01:06   - Okay, that's, 'cause something is,

00:01:08   geez, something is wacky in business.

00:01:11   Like is there, whatever they put in most businesses,

00:01:15   is there some kind of weird chemical

00:01:16   that off-gases from that that might cause

00:01:19   this kind of language to be understood and produced?

00:01:21   So maybe it's like the spider phones

00:01:23   or like cubicle walls, I don't know.

00:01:26   - Just meetings, it's just, you know,

00:01:28   you've seen a demotivational poster for meetings,

00:01:31   none of us is as dumb as all of us.

00:01:33   (both laughing)

00:01:35   - No, the thing of it is, I've talked about this in the past

00:01:37   and I'm not being funny right now.

00:01:39   I really believe that most large businesses,

00:01:44   and I have seen this firsthand in financial services firms,

00:01:47   they're entirely, not literally of course,

00:01:50   but they're entirely middle management.

00:01:51   And the problem is that every one of these middle managers

00:01:54   realizes deep down inside that they're redundant.

00:01:58   And so they all decide to have meetings constantly.

00:02:02   And they have these meetings so that at these meetings,

00:02:06   all of the middle managers can stick up their peacock tails

00:02:09   and say, "Ooh, look at me.

00:02:10   "I'm so smart, I'm not redundant.

00:02:12   "It's all you, Eddie, et cetera, the redundant ones."

00:02:15   And that's that.

00:02:15   This is the same thing that happens with lawyers.

00:02:18   They make up these ridiculous reasons to exist

00:02:22   simply so that they can continue to exist.

00:02:25   It's completely self-serving and ridiculous.

00:02:26   I mean, look at, reach the largest daily audience

00:02:30   in the world by connecting everyone to their world

00:02:32   via our information sharing and distribution platform

00:02:34   products and be one of the top revenue-generating

00:02:37   internet companies in the world.

00:02:38   I know you read that before.

00:02:40   I'm reading it again and I am miserable.

00:02:42   - Why don't you just tell us what it is

00:02:43   because we've just been talking about this

00:02:44   as if everyone knows and some poor person

00:02:45   is gonna be listening to this six months from now

00:02:47   I have no idea what we're talking about.

00:02:49   - This is the recently unveiled Twitter strategy statement.

00:02:51   At first everyone thought it was a mission statement.

00:02:54   It was later corrected to be a strategy statement

00:02:56   in some kind of, it was unveiled on some kind of investor

00:02:59   presentation that they held today.

00:03:01   Yeah, my favorite part is platform products.

00:03:06   - Yeah, that's where you stop being able

00:03:09   to parse the sentence and you're like,

00:03:10   is there missing punctuation or is this a typo or?

00:03:13   - I mean the whole thing is a tremendous run-on sentence

00:03:15   that really could benefit from some commas.

00:03:18   You can tell they don't even write,

00:03:19   like they don't write very well.

00:03:21   They don't, this doesn't even fit in a tweet

00:03:23   as many people pointed out.

00:03:25   As either a mission or a strategy statement,

00:03:28   it is, I would say, weak at best.

00:03:31   - And it doesn't finish strong, it gets worse,

00:03:33   especially at the bottom.

00:03:34   So revenue I just made fun of, like putting that in there

00:03:37   just seems crass, and putting revenue instead of product

00:03:40   just seems dumb, but the best part is it's one of the top.

00:03:43   Like they're not even gonna say number one.

00:03:45   - They're not gonna say biggest.

00:03:47   They're just gonna be like,

00:03:47   we just wanna be a contender for money

00:03:50   moving through our organization, really.

00:03:52   We're not gonna say we're gonna be number one.

00:03:53   Like, you know, everyone makes fun of Google's

00:03:56   don't be evil thing or whatever, but they're whatever.

00:03:58   They're, I don't know, their mission statement, whatever.

00:03:59   Isn't it like indexing all the world's information

00:04:02   or something like that?

00:04:03   And Microsoft's was the old, you know,

00:04:05   a computer on every desk running Microsoft software.

00:04:08   Like, those are simple, easy to understand goals

00:04:13   that don't say we really want our share price to be high.

00:04:17   Our goal is to make our CEOs options worth so much

00:04:20   that he can retire in five years and buy an island.

00:04:22   You might as well just put that in your mission statement.

00:04:25   Jason Snell in the chat room said his company's mission

00:04:26   statement at one point included revenue per employee.

00:04:30   - Wow. - That's amazing.

00:04:33   It's just aiming low.

00:04:36   It's terrible.

00:04:37   It's almost like you could say you can think that,

00:04:41   but don't write it down.

00:04:43   But really, you shouldn't even be thinking that.

00:04:46   When Microsoft and Google both have more noble, more

00:04:49   inspirational mission statements than you do,

00:04:51   you're not doing well.

00:04:53   Well, and what this shows, it's obviously--

00:04:56   this is a sentence designed by so much committee.

00:04:59   Yep, I don't think it's a sentence.

00:05:00   There's all these--

00:05:01   [LAUGHTER]

00:05:03   There's all these clauses that are bolted on that don't really

00:05:06   need to be there.

00:05:06   And they reflect like every department had a bolt on.

00:05:10   or the leadership couldn't decide what to say

00:05:13   until they said everything.

00:05:14   All of which is funny, 'cause that all kind of seems

00:05:16   to reflect Twitter's kind of wacky, weak leadership.

00:05:20   That Twitter has always had leadership issues

00:05:24   from the founders coming kind of in and out

00:05:26   and different CEOs and business people coming in and out.

00:05:29   They've always had really seemingly unstable leadership.

00:05:32   I mean, Dick Costolo I think has been there the longest

00:05:35   of anybody who's been near the top.

00:05:37   But it's always just kind of been all over the place.

00:05:40   and what they have with the sentences

00:05:42   is a very clear indicator to the outside world

00:05:45   that they still have struggles up at the very top

00:05:50   with getting, what the direction of the company

00:05:53   might even be or who gets to get recognized or whatever.

00:05:56   It's a little thing, this is not like a major disaster

00:06:00   or anything but it's an indicator of the kind of sloppy,

00:06:05   possibly out of touch, possibly shot in the dark

00:06:09   kind of leadership that they have.

00:06:12   I mean, look at, like I would,

00:06:13   reach the largest daily audience in the world.

00:06:16   You could end it right there and be done.

00:06:18   It's still a little weird.

00:06:19   - Although that, even that is like,

00:06:21   what do you mean reach?

00:06:22   When you reach them, what have you done?

00:06:24   Like, you're not, you know what I mean?

00:06:26   Like the Google thing, like they're whatever they're doing.

00:06:28   Indexing the world's information.

00:06:30   Like they're taking all the information in the world,

00:06:31   they wanna bring it all in and organize it

00:06:33   and make it accessible in a way.

00:06:34   Like they're doing a useful thing.

00:06:35   They're saying there's information,

00:06:37   it's hard to do anything with it.

00:06:38   we Google have this massive ambition

00:06:40   that all information world will take it in

00:06:42   and will make it so that you can do something useful with it

00:06:44   right, that is a useful thing.

00:06:45   - Well and even the next clause is also pretty good.

00:06:47   Connect everyone to their world.

00:06:50   That alone doesn't say a lot,

00:06:53   but it's better than the whole, you know?

00:06:56   And then of course the end,

00:06:57   be one of the top revenue-generating internet companies

00:06:58   in the world, okay, you know,

00:06:59   if that's what you wanna be, fine.

00:07:01   But like, if anybody with editing permission

00:07:06   got ahold of this, it probably would have been better

00:07:09   to just say, connect everyone to their world.

00:07:12   Like, that's it, that's all you need to say

00:07:14   out of this entire 65-word sentence that's awful.

00:07:17   - But even that is just like really weak.

00:07:20   It doesn't seem like they know what,

00:07:23   it would have been a more fun meeting

00:07:25   to take these same people who came up with this

00:07:27   and say, what do you think Twitter is doing now?

00:07:30   What do people use Twitter for?

00:07:32   Like, Twitter is a thing that exists, right?

00:07:33   You guys run the company, so can you describe

00:07:36   like what it is that Twitter is right now.

00:07:38   Like not what you want it to be,

00:07:39   not what you want the company to be,

00:07:41   not what your mission is,

00:07:42   but like right now there is something called Twitter

00:07:43   and people use it and try to describe that.

00:07:45   And I don't think they could

00:07:46   'cause I don't think they're Twitter users,

00:07:47   I don't think they understand what value that Twitter has.

00:07:50   That would have been a more instructive exercise for them.

00:07:53   - Yeah, I would be shocked

00:07:56   if most of Twitter's top leadership

00:07:59   really used Twitter very heavily.

00:08:01   - Yeah, I don't get this.

00:08:02   And I keep coming back to what you were saying earlier,

00:08:04   Marco, that this is definitely designed by committee.

00:08:06   This, this, what is, not a mission statement,

00:08:08   what do we call it, strategy statement?

00:08:10   - A strategy statement.

00:08:11   - Thank you.

00:08:12   This strategy statement seems like the text-based equivalent

00:08:16   of like a website's carousel.

00:08:18   Do you know what I'm talking about?

00:08:19   Where, you know, there are 10 different groups

00:08:22   that all are convinced that they should be

00:08:24   the hero image on this website.

00:08:27   And what ends up happening is nobody wants

00:08:29   to make a tough decision, and so they just say,

00:08:32   "Yeah, screw it, we'll put it on a rotating carousel

00:08:34   and that'll be good enough."

00:08:35   This is like the text version of that.

00:08:38   Just like you were saying, everyone,

00:08:39   you get three words a piece

00:08:41   and we'll just mash them together in some way

00:08:42   that vaguely resembles English.

00:08:44   So bad, so bad.

00:08:48   All right, you wanna do some follow up?

00:08:51   - Yeah, there was one other thing

00:08:53   I was trying to think about with the Twitter thing

00:08:54   and I totally lost my mind.

00:08:56   Maybe it'll come back to me later.

00:08:58   - Maybe the strategy statement melted your brain.

00:09:00   - Probably.

00:09:01   - It definitely did.

00:09:02   I was proud of myself that I remembered

00:09:03   the demotivational poster word for word.

00:09:06   Without looking it up.

00:09:09   - All right, so let's talk about App Store

00:09:12   not allowing purchase of bundles.

00:09:15   - Yeah, I didn't have an example of that last time.

00:09:17   I still don't have an example,

00:09:18   but I think the same person, Colin Pickren,

00:09:20   who sent in the original thing, sent us a screenshot.

00:09:23   And the weird thing about the screenshot,

00:09:25   if you take a look at it,

00:09:25   is it just gets rid of the purchase button.

00:09:29   I mean, it's not a big screenshot.

00:09:31   It's cropped, so I can't see,

00:09:32   but basically there's no purchase button.

00:09:33   He's got a big red arrow saying,

00:09:34   "This is where the purchase button would be."

00:09:36   And if he didn't include another shot

00:09:38   showing the purchase button, like that it would be there,

00:09:41   I wouldn't understand what the arrow was pointing to.

00:09:42   So basically if someone stumbles

00:09:43   upon one of these bundles, it's good.

00:09:44   I guess that the App Store won't let you buy it

00:09:46   for more than it would cost you

00:09:47   just to buy the one app you're missing.

00:09:49   But it's kind of weird.

00:09:50   Maybe somewhere else on the page

00:09:52   it tells you why there's no purchase button.

00:09:54   - This is like bug fix by display none.

00:09:57   - Right, exactly.

00:09:57   It's like, you know, maybe a button that says,

00:10:01   here's the problem, what would you put in the button?

00:10:04   You can't buy this because it would cost you more

00:10:06   than buying the individual app.

00:10:08   It does not fit in the button,

00:10:09   and let's try it in German, right?

00:10:10   So it's not gonna work out.

00:10:13   I don't know.

00:10:14   Bundles are a mess.

00:10:15   Anyway, thought I'd throw that in there.

00:10:17   We'll put it in the show notes.

00:10:19   - I'm still honestly trying to figure out

00:10:21   why Apple made bundles.

00:10:23   You know, obviously it was not for upgrade price hacks.

00:10:25   That's obviously not the intent here,

00:10:27   otherwise it would work better for that.

00:10:29   I really wonder, like, what, like,

00:10:32   it seems to only benefit, obviously,

00:10:34   it only benefits paid apps.

00:10:36   I don't think in-app purchases can contribute

00:10:37   in any possible way to this.

00:10:39   And Apple usually doesn't do anything to help paid apps

00:10:44   because most of the apps that actually get downloaded

00:10:47   aren't paid apps, and most of the money in the app store

00:10:49   does not come from paid apps anymore.

00:10:50   I think the number is something like, you know, 10%

00:10:53   or something of the money comes from paid apps.

00:10:55   It's some kind of very low number by most of the reports

00:10:57   to try to measure it.

00:10:58   So I wonder what was the goal here?

00:11:02   Was it some kind of weird like,

00:11:05   you know, serve certain game companies kind of thing?

00:11:07   I honestly have no idea.

00:11:09   - It's a sales tool.

00:11:11   So it's yet another thing that Apple can do

00:11:13   to make software cheaper,

00:11:15   if you think of it in that light, right?

00:11:16   So there are some apps that are paid,

00:11:18   and it's like, well, we can't make those people

00:11:20   make their apps free,

00:11:21   but maybe we can make it so that the cost of those apps

00:11:23   is less by letting people bundle them up

00:11:25   so that if people were gonna buy these three apps anyway,

00:11:28   now you can buy those three apps for less money.

00:11:29   It's basically just lowering the purchase price.

00:11:31   So all sorts of sale tactics, obviously free is magic,

00:11:35   but people like lower prices as well.

00:11:36   So the price of individual apps gets driven down.

00:11:39   But this is a tool to say,

00:11:42   if you make a suite of applications

00:11:43   and people aren't gonna buy them individually

00:11:46   for $2.99 each 'cause that's just too much money.

00:11:50   So put them all into a bundle together for five bucks,

00:11:53   put four $2.99 apps in the bundle for five bucks

00:11:55   And then you basically, once again,

00:11:57   found a way to lower the price of software for customers.

00:11:59   They get more software for less money.

00:12:01   That's my guess.

00:12:03   Because that's Apple's big thing,

00:12:04   they want software to be cheap.

00:12:07   And if there are some applications that are not cheap,

00:12:10   they're like, what if we get-- and it's good.

00:12:12   It's a win-win for the developer, too.

00:12:14   They say, you have multiple apps,

00:12:15   so you're having trouble selling them individually.

00:12:17   What if we gave you a way to sell them together

00:12:19   for a lower price?

00:12:20   That would save the consumer money.

00:12:22   Anyone who was going to buy both those apps anyway saves money.

00:12:24   and you maybe make a sale where you wouldn't before

00:12:27   because before it's perceived as a bargain.

00:12:29   It's the same reason everything is on sale all the time

00:12:32   at the big department stores.

00:12:33   - Right, but still, it just seems like Apple

00:12:37   is doing something pretty redundant here.

00:12:40   Like if they're trying to reduce the price

00:12:43   that paid software sells for,

00:12:45   they can just do that by inaction

00:12:47   because everything else about the App Store

00:12:50   encourages prices to go down to free.

00:12:52   - People love bundles though.

00:12:54   - Back when I was at the e-book store place,

00:12:57   we had many different kinds of bundles

00:12:59   and they were a popular thing to have.

00:13:02   We like making them, people like buying them.

00:13:04   I'm surprised more electronic store,

00:13:08   I mean, I guess they kind of do.

00:13:10   Does the iTunes store do that when you complete this album?

00:13:13   Is that always just straight math or do you get a bargain?

00:13:15   - I believe it is straight math,

00:13:16   but I'm not 100% sure on that.

00:13:18   - Oh, anyway, bundles, it's a thing.

00:13:21   - Free slogan, they can have that.

00:13:22   How about iWork?

00:13:24   Yeah, iWork, speaking of bundles and cheaper software, so John G, not John Gruber, wrote

00:13:30   in to comment on what I said about iWork, about how having a mediocre to crappy office

00:13:37   type program doesn't make Apple's hardware more valuable.

00:13:40   It doesn't help Apple sell hardware in the way that iLife used to back when iLife was

00:13:44   really good.

00:13:45   iWork has never been really good and doesn't really help sell Macs.

00:13:49   If anything, maybe it's just neutral.

00:13:51   John G says that he thinks they're all defensive strategies

00:13:54   to ensure the companies don't get squeezed out.

00:13:56   He says, "What if the Surface 6th generation

00:13:57   is amazingly caught up to the iPad

00:13:59   and comes with Office Free?

00:14:00   Apple might get squeezed out."

00:14:01   So basically by having its own Office Suite

00:14:04   then it'll be holding to Microsoft

00:14:06   and they won't be afraid that whatever their platform is,

00:14:11   iPad or whatever will become less viable

00:14:13   if Microsoft suddenly decides

00:14:14   they don't wanna offer Office for iOS.

00:14:16   Now, first of all, the odds at this point of Microsoft

00:14:19   not offering Office for iOS seemed very low

00:14:21   since Microsoft seems very gung ho

00:14:24   on cross-platform these days.

00:14:25   Second of all, Office wasn't on iOS for a really long time,

00:14:28   didn't seem to hurt it.

00:14:29   But the biggest counterargument to this idea

00:14:32   that Apple needs to make an Office suite

00:14:34   so they don't get squeezed out

00:14:36   by someday having Office taken away or something

00:14:40   is that Apple having a mediocre Office suite

00:14:43   subsidized by hardware profits

00:14:45   makes it way harder for third-party developers

00:14:47   to make a living selling Office-type applications.

00:14:51   I work as a free thing,

00:14:52   and I think it's free now, right, all the time.

00:14:54   Comes with new devices anyway,

00:14:56   you can just download the apps automatically, right?

00:14:57   - Right.

00:14:58   - That makes it really hard for anybody else

00:15:00   to try to make Office-style applications.

00:15:02   Microsoft can because they're subsidized

00:15:04   by whatever is making them money,

00:15:05   and I think they just made Office for iOS free

00:15:08   or something like that.

00:15:09   - But mostly, sort of.

00:15:11   - Yeah, I know, it's always confusing

00:15:12   with the 365 thing, the subscriptions and everything.

00:15:14   - Yeah, it's mostly free.

00:15:16   - Yeah, but so if Apple is really concerned

00:15:18   about making its platform not too reliant on office

00:15:22   or any other particular type of thing,

00:15:24   the best thing it could do is foster a thriving market

00:15:28   for office type applications.

00:15:30   And by making, putting tons of money into iWork

00:15:32   and then giving it away for free,

00:15:34   or at the very least as it was before, below cost,

00:15:37   that makes it impossible for you to have a thriving ecosystem

00:15:39   of office applications.

00:15:40   You're basically guaranteeing

00:15:41   it's only just you versus office.

00:15:43   So I think rather than iWork being neutral,

00:15:47   it's actually, in terms of the fear of being squeezed out,

00:15:50   it's actually a negative because they're making sure

00:15:53   that no one else will ever try to make

00:15:55   a suite of Office applications because, you know,

00:15:57   well, Microsoft plus Apple are both making sure

00:16:00   that no one else is gonna try to do that.

00:16:01   And so we're at the mercy of Microsoft,

00:16:04   which so far hasn't been that great,

00:16:05   and iWork, which also has not been that great.

00:16:08   - How about the Rymac GPU being throttled?

00:16:12   Is that a thing?

00:16:13   - I think it is a thing, at least for people

00:16:15   who are interested in playing games in Windows.

00:16:17   A lot of people sent me this link to MacRumors forum thread

00:16:20   about iMac 5K GPU throttling.

00:16:24   And it started where someone was doing

00:16:26   some gaming benchmarks in Windows,

00:16:29   in bootcamp on iMac 5K,

00:16:32   and saw that the GPU would start throttling

00:16:35   way below the temperature it's supposed to.

00:16:39   So like, according to this person,

00:16:41   thinks that the GPU is supposed to start throttling at 105 degrees Celsius and

00:16:45   instead it started throttling like seconds after it started to be used in

00:16:49   Windows it would start throttling like 70 degrees Celsius. So that's not good but

00:16:53   that could just be bad Windows drivers and lots of people in the rest of this

00:16:57   thread talk about, you know, well maybe better bootcamp drivers will come out

00:17:00   and this will be a problem. But then other people later in the thread said

00:17:04   it's not just Windows I can run a game on my Mac and it's really easy to get

00:17:09   the GPU up to 105 degrees Celsius.

00:17:11   And for people who don't know what Celsius is,

00:17:13   (laughing)

00:17:15   that's really hot.

00:17:16   100 degrees Celsius is the boiling point of water, right?

00:17:19   - Yes, yes.

00:17:20   - Yeah, as the Americans confidently say,

00:17:21   "Yes, yes, Celsius."

00:17:23   Anyway, the point is that's really hot.

00:17:25   And a lot of people in the thread are concerned

00:17:28   that this is near the thermal limits of the GPU.

00:17:30   It's gonna shorten the life of the GPU.

00:17:32   Then other people in the thread say,

00:17:33   "Don't you think Apple would have tested this

00:17:34   with temperatures?"

00:17:35   And other people come back with,

00:17:37   if we'll look at all these historic GPU failures

00:17:39   in Apple portable machines.

00:17:41   So at the very least, this is not encouraging

00:17:44   if you're planning on gaming on an iMac.

00:17:46   Temperatures aside, if you're not worried

00:17:50   about the particular temperatures,

00:17:51   or maybe it's the way it's measured

00:17:53   because it's peak temperature

00:17:53   instead of at the edge of the die or whatever,

00:17:56   I think the more important point is,

00:18:00   and there's other length to open the show,

00:18:01   it's the gaming benchmarks.

00:18:03   So ignore temperatures, ignore temperatures entirely.

00:18:06   Ignore the longevity of your GPU, whatever that may or may not be.

00:18:11   If you look at gaming benchmarks like this BareFeets thing did of the new, fanciest 5K iMac

00:18:17   versus the lesser GPU in the 5K iMac versus the old, non-retina iMac,

00:18:23   the top of the line iMac you can buy is not even the fastest iMac ever made depending on your game.

00:18:30   And when it does win, it doesn't win by a large margin.

00:18:33   Margin so these benchmarks are kind of depressing from game. It's not bad game performance

00:18:37   It's fine, but you would expect you know this to be a next generation iMac with an entirely different GPU

00:18:43   You expect it to do better than the previous generation GPU and for the most part it does

00:18:49   But it's not a really convincing win in a couple benchmarks. It actually is a little bit slower and so

00:18:54   Regardless of throttling that's not great either

00:18:57   So it's kind of not

00:19:01   Yeah, I would say I'm a mixed bag with a lot of unknowns right now for the 5k iMac

00:19:06   I don't know much about the temperature stuff. I can't really tell if this is crazy or not. Although

00:19:11   People running similar benchmarks against their old

00:19:14   iMacs are getting way lower temperatures and you can't tell like is that because the sensor is showing

00:19:19   There's a temperature different location. What is the

00:19:22   reasonable temperature for this GPU

00:19:25   Is it okay for it to be showing a measurement of 105 degrees Celsius all the time?

00:19:30   The throttling window seems like a driver issue,

00:19:33   like it shouldn't be throttling at 70 degrees Celsius

00:19:36   and so that's really killing Windows gaming performance

00:19:38   there, so I don't know.

00:19:41   Anyway, depressing thread for anyone who is looking forward

00:19:44   to gaming on their iMac 5K.

00:19:46   - I think you're right, John, that is disappointing.

00:19:48   It doesn't affect me or my priorities at all,

00:19:50   but that is disappointing.

00:19:51   For whatever it's worth, I've been running the iStat menu's

00:19:55   fan monitor just so I could get an idea of like,

00:19:59   you know, when the fan spins up,

00:20:00   under what temperatures, under what kind of load,

00:20:02   just so I can have some idea of how this computer behaves.

00:20:05   Right now, it's letting the CPUs idle

00:20:07   at about 130 Fahrenheit.

00:20:10   I don't have this in Celsius mode, sorry.

00:20:12   You'll have to do your own translations.

00:20:14   But CPUs are idling at about 130, GPUs idle at about 100.

00:20:18   One of them just sitting here doing not much.

00:20:20   I noticed that the fan will only spin up on the CPU,

00:20:24   well, it's one fan in the whole system,

00:20:25   but the fan will spin up when the CPU temperature

00:20:27   reaches about 190 Fahrenheit.

00:20:30   So it's getting very close to that 100 Celsius number

00:20:32   before the fan even spins up.

00:20:34   It doesn't ever cross 200, so it's keeping it right below

00:20:38   whatever it is in Celsius, like 95 or whatever.

00:20:40   It's keeping the CPUs right below that under full load.

00:20:43   But it's not spinning up at all until then,

00:20:46   whatever that's worth.

00:20:46   Anyway, but yeah, I have found so far in my kind of use,

00:20:51   I'm actually extremely happy.

00:20:54   The more I use this machine, the happier I am with it.

00:20:56   It is really, really nice.

00:20:59   I mean, it's like, even like I mentioned last week,

00:21:02   the fan noise under full load,

00:21:03   I did the one test with the full load fan noise,

00:21:06   then I didn't load it up like that for a few days,

00:21:09   and like the memory of it got louder in my mind

00:21:11   over those few days. (laughs)

00:21:13   And then like when I ran a handbrake conversion

00:21:15   the other day for a totally legal movie file

00:21:18   that a totally legal podcast friend of mine got me

00:21:21   for a totally legal BBC car show,

00:21:23   (laughing)

00:21:24   when I ran a handbrake transcode of that file

00:21:27   to make it on my totally legal Apple TV,

00:21:29   I was matching out the CPUs again,

00:21:32   and the fan was way quieter than I imagined it in my head.

00:21:37   Like, it is loud.

00:21:39   It is like a laptop fan in that when it spins to full speed,

00:21:43   you will hear it.

00:21:44   But it is, I would say, I'd say a little quieter

00:21:48   than a 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro fan, after all.

00:21:50   Like, it's similar kind of noise, a little quieter,

00:21:52   still noticeable, still audible,

00:21:54   still annoying if it's always that loud.

00:21:56   But either way, I would say this is a computer

00:22:00   that is really great if you're not loading up

00:22:02   to full blast every day constantly.

00:22:04   You know, if full blast on the CPUs or GPUs

00:22:08   is an occasional thing, then that's great

00:22:10   and it won't be a problem.

00:22:11   - Yeah, that's the concern about this for gaming.

00:22:14   People who game like spend just hours

00:22:16   with everything going full tilt.

00:22:18   - Right, and that I would be concerned.

00:22:19   - If you're doing a first person shooter,

00:22:21   just hours and hours a day for months and months on end.

00:22:23   What people are saying about the old iMac problems and other things is that it doesn't it doesn't kill it right away

00:22:28   But like by the time your Apple care runs out if you bought like a couple extra years of Apple care

00:22:32   Just around that point just from the constant constantly running at a very high temperature

00:22:36   and what they're saying is it shortens the life of the components and

00:22:38   If the gaming could performance was like this where it's like it's mostly faster than the previous top-end

00:22:44   But not really by much and in a few benchmarks is a little bit under you'd be like

00:22:47   Okay, if it was like also lower power and cooler and quieter

00:22:51   but it seems almost like a downgrade,

00:22:54   whereas the previous one got similar benchmark numbers

00:22:56   running it at a lower indicated temperature

00:22:58   according to whatever these sensors are or anything.

00:23:00   So it gives the feeling that,

00:23:02   what am I doing all this stuff,

00:23:03   or more, what do you call it, more VRAM, I guess,

00:23:06   because I don't think I've ever had four gigs,

00:23:08   but it's not, this doesn't look like a good GPU upgrade

00:23:13   from the previous one.

00:23:14   It's more kind of like a lateral move at best.

00:23:17   - Right, and this is, I mean,

00:23:19   I continue to believe, you know, like if you're looking at the Mac lineup with the goal of

00:23:25   playing games, like playing, you know, high-end games a lot, I think you're going to be

00:23:31   sad. And there's just not a lot of, you know, of greatness to that. Like, the best

00:23:36   case scenario is you buy a Mac Pro, which is spending a lot of money for a video card

00:23:42   that actually isn't very good at gaming. Like, it can do it, but it's, like, you're

00:23:46   you're not getting your money's worth on the video card,

00:23:49   'cause that's not really what you're paying for.

00:23:51   You're not paying for gaming ability

00:23:53   on the Mac Pro's $5,000 purchase price.

00:23:56   So, really, I continue to say that your best choice,

00:24:01   if you want to play PC games,

00:24:04   is to either settle for a game console

00:24:06   or build a gaming PC, 'cause it's--

00:24:08   - Game console is not an equivalent for PC games.

00:24:11   People who wanna play PC games need a keyboard and a mouse.

00:24:14   - Right, so then build a gaming PC.

00:24:15   It's like you can build a great gaming PC for like 1200 bucks. I wouldn't call it great

00:24:19   Well better if you wanted to match the current Mac Pro with its with its best video card option

00:24:27   I bet you could build a gaming PC that that has roughly similar gaming performances that for total thought in my head

00:24:33   I would say 1500 or less. Oh, yeah, but we're not talking about performance

00:24:37   Like when you say a great PC

00:24:38   Like the reason people buy max is they're not just interested in what is the frame rate for amount of money?

00:24:42   Like obviously they would just get a gaming PC if you wanted to do that, but what you're

00:24:47   looking for from a Mac is like the whole package you wanted.

00:24:50   Nice and elegant and lots of extraneous stuff and you're sure it'll all work together

00:24:54   and you don't have to worry about driver issues and it looks nice and in the case of

00:24:57   the Mac Pro it's quiet and it's cool and interesting and all that stuff, you know.

00:25:01   So the Mac Pro is still the best gaming Mac, which is sad because it's got, like you

00:25:05   said, not a great video card for gaming and you just pay a tremendous amount of money

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00:27:38   - So let's talk about Trim for a second.

00:27:41   We brought this up last episode

00:27:43   with regard to Jon's new purchase

00:27:45   and we got some feedback about that, Jon.

00:27:49   - Yeah, this is from a former Apple engineer.

00:27:52   This is something we didn't mention in the past show

00:27:54   but it's worth clarifying in case people were wondering

00:27:57   Why is it that Apple only supports initially only supported trim on its own

00:28:02   drives and

00:28:04   To this day still doesn't support it on a lot of third-party drives

00:28:07   Is it a punitive thing where Apple wants you to buy their drives and doesn't want to support trim on third-party drives?

00:28:13   No, not really

00:28:14   The reason they don't support trim on third-party drives the same reason Apple doesn't support a lot of third-party stuff

00:28:19   is

00:28:21   You know, they wanted they want to decrease their their support burdens. They sort of

00:28:26   Qualify they whitelist which devices they can send trim command secure and this this former Apple engineer. It says that

00:28:32   in the first two years after trim showed up as a thing a lot of the

00:28:37   Flash controllers out there had firmware

00:28:39   They would trim the wrong range of blocks so the OS would tell it to trim a certain set of blocks

00:28:43   and it would do it like off by one or

00:28:45   Or even worse there is taking logical block numbers and using them as physical block numbers with no mappings

00:28:50   And there was other bugs like not invalidating trim in the queue if it'll later write was given for the block

00:28:56   So, basically bugs.

00:28:59   If Apple simply said, "Oh, we'll support trim everywhere

00:29:02   and we'll send the correct trim commands

00:29:03   to any third-party drive you plug in."

00:29:06   That would be bad because Apple knew for a fact

00:29:09   that there were many buggy drives out there

00:29:12   that would do bad things if you send the trim command,

00:29:15   some of which could result in data loss.

00:29:16   So what they did is the typical Apple thing of,

00:29:19   they made sure that their own SSDs that they shipped

00:29:22   worked with the trim command.

00:29:25   and said some of them, the internal flash shipped

00:29:27   with firmware that Apple wrote or firmware

00:29:29   that they could get in source code form and could modify.

00:29:32   And later on when some firmware came from vendors

00:29:36   that was okay, Apple whitelisted it.

00:29:38   And so basically if you connect an SSD to OS X,

00:29:43   if it's not one of the ones that Apple is absolutely sure

00:29:46   is going to behave correctly,

00:29:47   either because they wrote the firmware

00:29:48   or they qualified it as an internal drive

00:29:50   or they whitelisted it as the third part,

00:29:52   exact third party make and model and drive

00:29:54   that works correctly, they don't do it.

00:29:57   And that is the most conservative approach

00:30:00   and the safest approach.

00:30:01   But I could probably also guess that Apple

00:30:04   does not spend a lot of its time buying

00:30:05   every single third party SSD,

00:30:07   testing its trim support and increasing the size

00:30:12   of that whitelist, which is why the third party hack,

00:30:15   the trim enabler thing is out there.

00:30:17   If you feel like you have a drive

00:30:18   that you're sure responds correctly to trim commands

00:30:21   and would benefit from using them,

00:30:23   you could use that enabler,

00:30:24   but then Yosemite, they have the kernel,

00:30:26   you know, extension signing thing,

00:30:28   listen to the previous show for all the details on that.

00:30:29   So if anyone thought that our description last week

00:30:34   was implying that Apple was malicious in this case,

00:30:36   at worst, you could say they're lazy

00:30:38   because they're not buying and qualifying every single drive

00:30:42   so they can increase the sizes of their whitelist.

00:30:44   But at best, they're just being typical conservative Apple

00:30:48   and trying to keep their driver burden low.

00:30:51   So, and I think a couple other people

00:30:54   who send information about,

00:30:56   I think we alluded to this last week,

00:30:58   the utility of the TRMM command may or may not be lessened

00:31:01   depending on the little storage computer

00:31:03   that's inside of each of your SSDs

00:31:05   and how it manages storage.

00:31:07   Again, the drive can't know when blocks are freed up

00:31:10   for use, but it can make more intelligent decisions

00:31:13   about right leveling and stuff like that.

00:31:15   So, as I said last week,

00:31:18   I am open to the idea that my Samsung 850 Pro

00:31:21   that I have will eventually get super slow.

00:31:23   And I'm also open to the idea that if that happens,

00:31:26   it's possible that enabling trim using this hack

00:31:30   will solve the problem for me.

00:31:31   But until the first problem happens,

00:31:33   I am not interested in the experiment of discovering

00:31:36   whether the second thing solves the problem or causes more.

00:31:39   - Fair enough.

00:31:41   And then do we wanna briefly talk about

00:31:44   whether or not the six plus is selling well?

00:31:47   - Yeah, what was it like last week?

00:31:49   That 50/50 number came from the T-Mobile CEO or something.

00:31:52   He was saying, yeah, the 6, 6 Plus seemed

00:31:55   to be in about even numbers.

00:31:56   And who knows what that means from T-Mobile.

00:31:58   Here's another one from this locallytics company

00:32:02   that is some kind of app analytics company.

00:32:04   And they gave numbers that are closer

00:32:05   to my original prediction from, I think,

00:32:08   right after the phones were announced

00:32:10   that I expected the 6 to way outsell the 6 Plus.

00:32:12   And locallytics says that the 6 is outselling the 6 Plus 6 to 1.

00:32:16   And as usual, Apple says nothing.

00:32:18   So we don't know.

00:32:18   but we'll put the link in the show notes.

00:32:20   Now we have two extremely widely varying guesses,

00:32:23   both from unreliable sources, but I'm still very curious.

00:32:26   I mean, what have you guys seen like out in the wild,

00:32:29   when you've seen people with iPhone 6s,

00:32:30   what is your ratio of spotting 6+s to 6s?

00:32:33   - I don't go outside.

00:32:34   - Chicken salad, nobody in line at the deli has a...

00:32:38   - I have not seen a single 6+ in the deli.

00:32:41   - Yeah, I've seen a handful of 6+s.

00:32:46   Is that true?

00:32:48   I think I've seen only one or two,

00:32:50   and I know a handful of people that have them.

00:32:53   And I remember when I was asking around,

00:32:56   around the time that everyone was making purchases,

00:32:59   so I was asking around amongst all of our friends,

00:33:02   like Mike Hurley and Ben Thompson and Ray Ritchie

00:33:05   and all of them.

00:33:06   At that point, I would say it was like two third sixes,

00:33:11   one third six pluses, although I do believe

00:33:14   some of these people have relented and gone to six

00:33:17   from 6 Plus.

00:33:19   So I'd say it's not 6 to 1, but certainly a few to not many,

00:33:26   if that makes any sense.

00:33:28   First time I saw a 6 Plus in person

00:33:29   was this weekend when I went into the Apple Store

00:33:31   to look at the 5K iMac.

00:33:33   And I've seen lots of 6s in person

00:33:35   from co-workers and people walking around,

00:33:39   but had never seen a 6 Plus before.

00:33:41   There you go, science from accidentaltechpodcast.

00:33:43   All right.

00:33:44   Yeah.

00:33:44   Anyway, so the bottom line, we still have no idea.

00:33:46   And yeah, and I'm still curious to know.

00:33:51   Maybe Apple will tell us, who knows, someday.

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00:36:07   So Marco, you recently released an update to Overcast, and I'd like to hear about

00:36:12   that, but most specifically I'd like to hear about this CarPlay thing that apparently

00:36:17   you've added.

00:36:18   Yes, I added CarPlay.

00:36:20   All right, moving on.

00:36:22   So, Microsoft, no, so how did that come to be?

00:36:26   Because my understanding of CarPlay is that's not the sort of thing that you can just decide

00:36:30   you want to be a part of.

00:36:32   So how did that happen?

00:36:36   What are you willing to share?

00:36:38   - Well, I started asking people at Apple,

00:36:41   how do I become a CarPlay app?

00:36:42   And over time, I eventually got to the right person

00:36:46   and got through the process.

00:36:49   - That was a much less exciting story than I owe.

00:36:54   - It was a pretty unexciting process, to be honest.

00:36:56   I mean, I'm not sure if I can really reveal the details,

00:36:58   but they're not that exciting.

00:37:00   I asked around for a long time and eventually got in.

00:37:05   That's the story, that's it.

00:37:07   - So how did you get, you posted a picture

00:37:09   of the little like screen, car screen thingy

00:37:13   that you have hooked up to a converter

00:37:16   so you can feed it 12 volts DC.

00:37:18   What is that?

00:37:19   Why did you buy it?

00:37:20   Was it a recommended thing?

00:37:21   Did it come as part of the program?

00:37:24   All that stuff.

00:37:26   - It is exactly as boring as of a story

00:37:28   as you would imagine.

00:37:30   I wanted to test on real CarPlay hardware

00:37:32   before I released it.

00:37:34   So I went to Best Buy and bought the cheapest car radio

00:37:37   that supported CarPlay,

00:37:39   and I bought a cheap 12 volt power supply on Amazon

00:37:41   for 20 bucks, and I brought it home,

00:37:44   plugged it in and tested it.

00:37:45   - Does your car support CarPlay?

00:37:47   Did any of your cars support it?

00:37:48   - No.

00:37:49   - Oh, so you couldn't actually use the car.

00:37:50   It wasn't just a matter of you didn't want to be sitting

00:37:51   in a garage with your car or whatever.

00:37:54   You wanted to have it on your desk,

00:37:55   but you don't even have anything we can use.

00:37:56   So this is a feature you're not even going to use yourself.

00:37:59   The only place you're ever gonna use it

00:38:00   is on your desk in front of this little screen.

00:38:02   - Correct.

00:38:03   I did it because the effort to reward ratio,

00:38:08   I thought was worth it.

00:38:10   It was very low effort.

00:38:12   You know, it was a lot of asking,

00:38:14   but that's like, you know,

00:38:15   you send an email every few months.

00:38:16   I mean, it wasn't that big of a problem.

00:38:17   But then the actual implementation of it

00:38:21   is very, very simple, because CarPlay apps are limited.

00:38:24   The APIs that you use as a CarPlay app are public.

00:38:28   You can go see them right now.

00:38:30   it's the MP Playable Content Manager, I think.

00:38:34   That's the CarPlay API for third-party audio apps.

00:38:38   So, you know, and the Apple program

00:38:39   simply gets you approved to use that

00:38:41   and to be integrated properly with the CarPlay receivers,

00:38:44   like to appear on their home screen and everything.

00:38:46   The interface that your app has to CarPlay

00:38:49   is very, very simple.

00:38:51   If you look at the MP content,

00:38:52   or MP Playable Content Manager thing, that's it.

00:38:54   Like that is, you basically provide a hierarchical menu,

00:38:58   like the old iPods where you have items

00:39:00   and then you click on the item and it says,

00:39:01   all right, now you're at this level of the tree

00:39:03   and what are the items for this level of the tree

00:39:05   and is this one playable or not

00:39:07   or does it pop under their menu?

00:39:08   And that's about it, it's very, very simple.

00:39:11   So because of that, it's actually very easy to test.

00:39:14   I don't feel that I need to be using this myself full time

00:39:17   to really make sure it's working properly.

00:39:20   I think it's the kind of thing I can test only occasionally

00:39:21   and it works just fine.

00:39:23   That's about it and I don't know how many

00:39:25   carplay compatible vehicles and head units

00:39:29   are out there yet, I have no idea.

00:39:30   I'm sure it's not a huge number,

00:39:33   but it was relatively easy to do,

00:39:35   and for the people who do have it, it matters quite a bit.

00:39:39   So, and I was, you know, one of the reasons

00:39:41   why I kept asking Apple about this is because,

00:39:45   you know, I was interested from the beginning,

00:39:46   but whenever the carplay stuff first started

00:39:48   becoming available to customers,

00:39:50   I think it was like two months ago or three months ago,

00:39:52   It was fairly recent, but ever since that point,

00:39:56   I've had people asking me on Twitter almost every day,

00:39:59   "Hey, why don't you support CarPlay?"

00:40:00   Like, the handful of people who have CarPlay radios,

00:40:04   apparently a big portion of them used Overcast

00:40:06   and were very upset that I wasn't supported properly

00:40:08   on there yet.

00:40:10   So again, it matters a lot to a small number of people

00:40:13   and it was very easy to do, so that's why I did it.

00:40:16   - So I've forgotten so much about CarPlay.

00:40:17   It requires you to connect with a wire still

00:40:20   or can you do a wireless thing?

00:40:21   I believe it's wired only.

00:40:23   I mean the radio, honestly I don't know that much about it.

00:40:25   The radio I got, which is the Pioneer AppRadio 4,

00:40:28   which is now, it's called the AppRadio 4 in so many places

00:40:32   except the box or any part of the Pioneer website,

00:40:35   where it's called the SPH-DA120.

00:40:37   You know, this is great consumer electronic stuff.

00:40:40   People keep asking me if I recommend that one.

00:40:42   The answer is I have no idea.

00:40:43   I've literally only used it for this purpose.

00:40:46   I find most third party car radios to be pretty tacky

00:40:51   and kind of overly happy with things like blue LEDs

00:40:55   and ugly menus.

00:40:56   (laughing)

00:40:56   And this is no exception.

00:40:59   So I'm just not a good person to ask about that.

00:41:02   So I have no idea, I cannot,

00:41:04   and because I'm not using it in a car,

00:41:06   I can't tell you about things like the utility

00:41:08   of the other functions.

00:41:09   - And so does it have a USB connector

00:41:11   and you're just connecting an Apple USB lightning thing

00:41:13   in it and that's all there is to it?

00:41:15   - That's exactly it.

00:41:16   - All right, and for the CarPlay thing,

00:41:18   could you have basically implemented

00:41:20   all this functionality before getting approval from Apple?

00:41:23   And like is the thing you got from Apple simply permission

00:41:26   to upload an app to the App Store that they won't reject

00:41:28   because it uses the CarPlay APIs?

00:41:30   - Yes, and I did.

00:41:32   In fact, I wrote this code months ago when the CarPlay API,

00:41:35   in fact, this code was in Overcast 1.0,

00:41:38   it just was inactive.

00:41:40   Because at the time, when the AMP Playable Content Manager

00:41:44   API first came out, CarPlay wasn't,

00:41:47   I don't think it was officially announced,

00:41:49   or like it was announced at the same event,

00:41:50   but the documentation of that, where it now says,

00:41:53   this is for CarPlay, didn't explain it.

00:41:56   It just said, this is for certain types of AV components

00:42:00   and receivers and everything.

00:42:01   So I thought, I wonder if there are a special

00:42:04   made for iPod receiver, where if there's a home theater

00:42:08   receiver that can display this hierarchical menu

00:42:10   I'm creating.

00:42:11   So I thought there was gonna be something else out there

00:42:14   besides CarPlay that could show this,

00:42:16   maybe in homes or whatever.

00:42:17   So I thought maybe I should get in on that

00:42:19   and make sure that I work properly on those things.

00:42:22   So I wrote all this code months ago

00:42:23   and had no way to test it 'cause I had no hardware

00:42:26   that would actually interact with it.

00:42:27   And nothing, I couldn't find any information on it,

00:42:30   so I just, I basically commented it out.

00:42:32   (laughs)

00:42:33   I just didn't instantiate the class that manages this

00:42:36   in my code in versions 1.0 through 1.04.

00:42:41   - Well, okay, I really thought there was gonna be

00:42:43   a lot more drama there.

00:42:44   - You think like, you would think that if Apple

00:42:47   really interested in getting like why would why would it be this process that it takes you months

00:42:51   because of you know don't you think it would be just as easy to join the CarPlay thing as it is

00:42:58   to upload an app to the App Store like the App Store was successful because hey anybody with

00:43:02   a couple bucks can sign up as a developer write an app with our free tools and upload it and now

00:43:07   you're on the App Store and there you go whereas CarPlay seems like a much harder system to get

00:43:13   into and it doesn't make any sense if Apple's interested in car playing becoming a thing,

00:43:17   but maybe they're not, maybe this is like the version 1.0 and they're not that interested

00:43:20   in getting too many people to fiddle with it, I don't know.

00:43:23   The problem with car stuff is there's major concerns with safety and driver distraction,

00:43:29   and secondarily there's also a lot of laws, and the laws vary in different countries and

00:43:34   sometimes even different states. The laws vary on what kind of interaction is legal

00:43:40   to provide to a driver while the car's in motion,

00:43:43   whether animations, any kind of moving content

00:43:47   is permitted or not permitted in certain contexts

00:43:49   and certain places.

00:43:50   All these, there's so many regulations for,

00:43:53   and just simply just concerns for safety,

00:43:56   because this is pretty serious stuff.

00:43:59   You don't wanna have somebody simulating Angry Birds

00:44:03   in the dashboard display by changing the item artwork

00:44:06   every half second or whatever.

00:44:07   there's like all these crazy ways

00:44:09   that these kind of systems could be abused.

00:44:12   Certainly app review could probably catch a lot of that,

00:44:15   but I don't know how much app review is testing CarPlay.

00:44:18   I can understand if Apple wants to be cautious.

00:44:21   Like I can understand why this might not be

00:44:24   open to everybody.

00:44:25   - I don't know, it still seems kind of weird to me.

00:44:27   Like you said, that's the whole point of app review

00:44:29   and if they're not, you know,

00:44:31   if app review is the bottleneck,

00:44:32   like what's the point of, you know,

00:44:35   if this is a thing that they want to happen,

00:44:36   They should be paying more money for more people

00:44:39   to review more carefully.

00:44:40   Like, there are medical applications in the App Store.

00:44:44   Somehow that seems OK.

00:44:46   But I don't know.

00:44:47   It just-- it's not a formula for success.

00:44:50   If Apple really says like, if CarPlay had to make a strategy

00:44:54   statement, and it was like CarPlay

00:44:56   in every car in the world by 10 years or whatever,

00:45:00   like that's obviously not what they're going for.

00:45:02   It just seems like they are--

00:45:03   it seems like a hobby, like Apple TV used to be.

00:45:05   Like, we have a car solution, it's a thing,

00:45:08   it's in Ferraris I guess, and also Hondas maybe,

00:45:12   but we're not that into it, you know.

00:45:14   'Cause there is, like you said, there is that

00:45:16   sort of adversarial, sort of standoffish relationship

00:45:19   with the car makers themselves trying to sort out

00:45:22   how are we going to arrive at car interiors

00:45:24   that aren't terrible, as we discussed at length on neutral.

00:45:28   - Right, well and also like, you know, similar to

00:45:31   Like all the concerns that Apple or app makers

00:45:35   should have about liability and safety problems,

00:45:38   the car makers have their own concerns too.

00:45:41   Like if you're driving a BMW using Angry Birds

00:45:44   simulated in CarPlay Art Org and you crash,

00:45:47   so many people are upset about that.

00:45:49   And it's so many people's problem.

00:45:51   You know, it's obviously your problem in a lot of ways.

00:45:55   Your family might have to deal with things.

00:45:57   But it's Apple's problem, it's the app's problem,

00:45:59   it's BMW's problem.

00:46:00   Like, the bad PR and lawsuits and everything can fly

00:46:04   in all those different directions.

00:46:05   Everyone has to really cover their own butts here.

00:46:08   And I really can't blame anybody in this situation

00:46:11   for being overly cautious,

00:46:14   because it is something that should be taken seriously.

00:46:17   - Yeah, but so many of these things are covered over by like

00:46:20   the screens that come up when I start my car

00:46:22   that are like, press OK to agree that you shouldn't look

00:46:26   at this screen when you're driving, and if you do,

00:46:29   the screen goes away at its own,

00:46:30   You don't actually have to press like it, but like the little like one screen

00:46:34   EULA type thing or just it's it's meaningless. Nobody reads it. It just becomes a constant annoyance

00:46:40   This is actually one one of the things that makes

00:46:42   One of the many things that makes the electronics and cars annoying like the ass covering messages

00:46:48   That you're just gonna see for the entire life of the car. They will have no effect on

00:46:53   How you use the car and we'll just and probably no effect legally speaking because it's not like it absolves anybody from you

00:47:00   You know, anyway, it's stupid, I don't like it.

00:47:03   - Yeah, my car shows me a license agreement

00:47:05   every time I start it.

00:47:06   - That's so bad.

00:47:07   - Press agree to drive.

00:47:08   - Yeah.

00:47:09   (laughs)

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00:49:54   - All right, so today was somewhat unexpectedly,

00:49:59   or at least for me, big day in my world

00:50:01   because Microsoft has open sourced,

00:50:04   or has said they're going to open source

00:50:06   a considerable portion of .NET.

00:50:08   And not only open source it,

00:50:09   but bring it to be cross platform.

00:50:11   And this is, to me, a pretty darn big deal.

00:50:15   And it's probably not gonna change

00:50:17   my day-to-day life very much,

00:50:20   But it's a very interesting statement from a company

00:50:24   that very much didn't believe that there were platforms

00:50:27   other than Windows.

00:50:29   And so what they did today is they said

00:50:31   they're going to open source a few additional components

00:50:34   of .NET and the best write-up I found

00:50:37   in the few minutes I had to look at this

00:50:39   was by Miguel de Iqaza, I hope I pronounced that right.

00:50:42   He is the head and I believe founder of the Mono Project,

00:50:46   which is a project to take .NET and make it cross-platform.

00:50:50   And what they were doing was,

00:50:51   what's the term for when you don't look at

00:50:53   any sort of source and you don't reverse compile

00:50:57   or anything like that, you just--

00:50:57   - Clean room, reverse engineer, clean room, whatever.

00:51:00   - Thank you, sir.

00:51:01   So they were doing a clean room version of .NET.

00:51:04   And then over time, as Microsoft has open sourced

00:51:06   little bits here and there,

00:51:08   they would incorporate those as licensing would permit.

00:51:12   Well, we'll put a link to Miguel's post in the show notes,

00:51:16   but basically he breaks it down.

00:51:19   And there are three things that are being open source.

00:51:22   .NET framework libraries, .NET Core framework libraries,

00:51:25   and the Ryujit, which sounds like Hadouken to me,

00:51:28   but anyway, VM.

00:51:30   And so the framework class libraries is basically--

00:51:33   so if you think of .NET as both a series of languages

00:51:37   and then the class library that these languages sit on top of,

00:51:44   or I guess maybe vice versa, for them

00:51:46   to release the .NET Framework classes,

00:51:50   that's a really big damn deal.

00:51:52   And so if you want to see how all of the foundational stuff

00:51:57   in .NET is implemented, you can go and check it out.

00:52:01   And so they're open sourcing .NET Framework class

00:52:03   libraries, .NET Core, which as Miguel says,

00:52:06   The .NET Core is a redesigned version of .NET that is based on the simplified version of

00:52:10   the class libraries as well as a design that allows for .NET to be incorporated into applications.

00:52:15   And this should sound a lot like, and I'm going to get the, is it Clang or LLVM that's

00:52:21   leveraged within Xcode, not just for compilation, but for just-in-time stuff?

00:52:26   It's not quite, I think it's just the underlying libraries that power both the Clang compiler

00:52:33   and Xcode.

00:52:34   I don't know what you call this library.

00:52:35   Someone probably knows.

00:52:36   - That's right.

00:52:37   The point is you can build tools that leverage the compiler,

00:52:42   not on, like in IDE, for example.

00:52:44   So anyway, so all this stuff is gonna show up on GitHub.

00:52:46   I was poking around GitHub earlier tonight,

00:52:48   and not all of it's there yet,

00:52:50   but it's certainly going to arrive there.

00:52:53   And there's also a good post,

00:52:55   the official Microsoft blog post about all of this,

00:52:58   and it talks about, or it's kind of almost an FAQ,

00:53:02   Why do we open source .NET Core?

00:53:05   Why are we doing it on GitHub?

00:53:08   And one of the things they said was, and this is from the blog post, "As a principle, we

00:53:13   don't want to ask the community to come to where we are.

00:53:16   Instead we want to go to where the community already is."

00:53:19   And so they're going to GitHub.

00:53:21   All this stuff is going to show up.

00:53:23   And it's funny because on the one side, from my day to day, like I said earlier, I don't

00:53:28   I don't think it's really gonna change a darn thing,

00:53:30   except maybe I could use .NET on OS X without using Mono,

00:53:35   but I mean, whatever, I don't really think,

00:53:37   know why I would wanna do that.

00:53:39   But I think it indicates a pretty big shift in Microsoft

00:53:43   away from the Windows is everything

00:53:46   and there's nothing else in the world mentality.

00:53:48   And that's what I think I'm most amped up about.

00:53:51   - So what does this make possible

00:53:53   that wasn't possible before?

00:53:55   Because Mono was already cross-platform.

00:53:57   - Sure.

00:53:58   - So anything that, if you could say,

00:54:00   well now I can use C# and .NET to write applications

00:54:05   that run on platforms other than the window.

00:54:09   You already kind of could with Mono.

00:54:11   What can, I don't quite under, other than,

00:54:13   all those things that Mono had to,

00:54:18   Xamarin had to clean room, reverse engineer,

00:54:20   and re-implement that now they don't have to anymore.

00:54:22   They can just take the actual source and incorporate it.

00:54:24   But does this make anything new possible

00:54:26   that wasn't possible before?

00:54:27   or feasible like it was possible before,

00:54:29   but you'd be worried about how supported it was.

00:54:32   Microsoft said it's gonna be officially supported.

00:54:34   - I think you hit the nail on the head.

00:54:36   It's that it's no longer third party, it's now first party.

00:54:39   And to go back to Miguel's blog post, and I'm quoting now,

00:54:42   we have a project underway that,

00:54:45   actually let me back up, I'm sorry.

00:54:47   Mono will be able to use as much as it wants

00:54:49   from this project.

00:54:50   We have a project underway that already does this.

00:54:53   We are replacing chunks of Mono code

00:54:54   that was either incomplete, buggy,

00:54:56   or not as fully featured as it should be with Microsoft's code.

00:55:00   So it certainly will improve Mono's robustness, reliability,

00:55:05   decrease in bugs, et cetera.

00:55:07   But on the surface, I agree with you, John,

00:55:09   that it doesn't really necessarily enable anything

00:55:12   that wasn't there already.

00:55:14   The only thing I can think of that might be a bit different

00:55:17   is I haven't looked closely at Mono or Xamarin in a long time.

00:55:21   But if you wanted to hypothetically run an ASP.NET website on something other than IIS,

00:55:30   I would assume that as part of this open sourcing of, among other things, ASP.NET, you could

00:55:38   do that on top of Apache or something like that without necessarily having to leverage

00:55:43   Mono.

00:55:44   I think Mono has done this at least in part in the past, but certainly it should be easier

00:55:48   now or well in the future.

00:55:49   - Yeah, that was my next question,

00:55:51   but it's like not included in this,

00:55:53   if I'm reading it correctly,

00:55:55   is any of the sort of the GUI libraries

00:55:56   that you use to make applications for Windows.

00:55:59   - Right, Windows Forms I've not seen any mention of,

00:56:01   and so I believe you are correct.

00:56:03   - So this is all kind of faceless server-side stuff,

00:56:05   and then for the server-side stuff, it's like,

00:56:06   well, sorry, so I can, you know, ASP.NET is here.

00:56:09   If I can build something,

00:56:11   I don't even know what you build for ASP.NET,

00:56:13   but like, and I know what the API looks like,

00:56:15   but I don't understand the deployment outside of IIS.

00:56:17   Do you just build like a library that gets loaded?

00:56:20   I don't know, I have no idea.

00:56:21   I've never done anything involving .NET inside Apache.

00:56:24   - Well, that's the thing, and I'm not sure either,

00:56:25   but the theory is is that there's nothing stopping you

00:56:28   from writing some sort of glue between Apache

00:56:31   and the ASP.NET DLLs or whatever output

00:56:35   that comes from that.

00:56:37   - Yeah, Horatio Boston in the chat room says

00:56:39   that one new thing that's possible

00:56:41   is that you could use Visual Studio

00:56:43   to build something that doesn't run out of Windows.

00:56:45   So you can build an executable that runs on OS X.

00:56:49   And that's the thing with this kind of like,

00:56:52   if you want to use Xcode, you have to use a Mac.

00:56:54   If you want to--

00:56:55   I think this is still the case for all these open source

00:56:58   components.

00:56:59   Can you use anything other than Visual Studio or the Xamarin

00:57:02   stuff to build this?

00:57:04   Is there like a Mac command line thing,

00:57:06   or you could just run like-- there's got to be, I guess.

00:57:08   Well, I don't think there is, but they're open sourcing--

00:57:11   I believe they're open sourcing Roslyn,

00:57:12   which is their compiler stack.

00:57:14   - They already did that, but I was wondering if,

00:57:16   practically speaking, does that mean

00:57:18   that you can get a command prompt and a bunch of files

00:57:20   and start compiling source code on your Mac

00:57:22   that runs on your Mac, or did you need,

00:57:24   basically, do you need Windows?

00:57:25   Do you need Visual Studio, 'cause Visual Studio is the IDE,

00:57:28   and that's what you need to compile this stuff.

00:57:31   I don't know how far people have gone

00:57:32   in taking the open source compiler

00:57:33   and trying to make it so that you could actually

00:57:35   do development of faceless, non-GUI applications

00:57:38   on the .NET stack using only a Mac

00:57:40   and not having a Windows machine anywhere.

00:57:42   - Right, I understand the question,

00:57:43   And as far as I know, the only Mac native compiler binary that exists is mono's compiler.

00:57:50   But I mean, you've got the entire source of Roslin.

00:57:53   So in principle, you could, although it is self-hosted, so yeah, I guess that is a little

00:57:58   weird.

00:57:59   Yeah, I don't know how that would work.

00:58:00   But I'm sure someone is or has done it.

00:58:03   I don't know.

00:58:05   But this is interesting.

00:58:06   It's certainly an interesting move.

00:58:07   It's something that I didn't expect from Microsoft.

00:58:09   Even though this has sort of been going on for a while now, it took me a little bit by

00:58:13   surprise that this much was going to get open sourced as quickly.

00:58:17   And the only somewhat crummy thing about it, which I understand, but they said publicly

00:58:22   in one of these posts that this isn't about, for a lot of the projects that they're open

00:58:29   sourcing, this isn't about asking for poll requests and making a true community project.

00:58:34   It was more just saying, hey, if you want to fork it,

00:58:37   here it is, but we're going to continue forward in our own way

00:58:41   and that's the way it's going to be.

00:58:42   I think this is heartening in the same way

00:58:44   that Apple's recent sort of opening up and doing things

00:58:48   that previously they seemed not interested in doing,

00:58:51   even extensions or third party keyboards or whatever in iOS.

00:58:54   This is another thing that people have always wanted

00:58:56   Microsoft to do, like take the core part of your stack

00:58:59   and make it open source for the same reasons that--

00:59:01   kind of for the same reasons that Apple has open sourced

00:59:04   the core part of its OS and everything,

00:59:05   although hopefully with better results.

00:59:07   And that the lower level stuff, there's

00:59:11   not much competitive advantage to keeping that close source.

00:59:14   And there's a lot of advantage to people developing

00:59:16   on your platform and to you as a platform maker

00:59:18   to make it open source.

00:59:20   Even if you don't get that much benefit of other people,

00:59:24   every little bit helps.

00:59:25   And it just makes it feel like it's a development environment

00:59:29   where you can see what's going on.

00:59:30   The fewer black boxes, the better.

00:59:32   Like if you're debugging something,

00:59:34   it would be nice to be able to have the source code

00:59:36   to all the stuff you're debugging.

00:59:37   Obviously that's not the case on the Mac,

00:59:39   it never has been, it's not the case on iOS.

00:59:41   There's some parts of it that are open source,

00:59:42   but then eventually you get into Cocoa and UIKit

00:59:44   and AppKit and all that stuff.

00:59:45   And that's not open source,

00:59:46   and I bet that would be great if that was open source too.

00:59:48   But like, so you have to balance,

00:59:50   or these companies think they have to balance,

00:59:52   what source do we keep closed,

00:59:54   and what source do we open up,

00:59:55   because there's no advantage just to keeping it closed.

00:59:57   And Microsoft, I'm not surprised to see this,

01:00:00   because it seems like Microsoft has long since realized

01:00:02   that keeping this stuff,

01:00:04   like as people stop paying attention to you,

01:00:06   as you are no longer the big dog in the market

01:00:09   and you're not like, oh, Microsoft,

01:00:11   they rule the entire PC industry.

01:00:12   Like they don't anymore.

01:00:13   Like mobile is more important.

01:00:14   Microsoft is not on mobile.

01:00:16   If you continue to act like

01:00:18   you are the most important company

01:00:21   and you're never gonna show your crown jewels,

01:00:22   it's making you less and less relevant.

01:00:25   If you want to bring people back to your camp,

01:00:27   you have to be more open.

01:00:29   It's not a power play.

01:00:30   It's more of a realization of the new shape of the market.

01:00:33   And I think it's helpful.

01:00:34   Like you're saying, how will this affect your job?

01:00:36   Maybe you'll come across something

01:00:38   where you have some bug

01:00:38   and you can't figure out what's going on

01:00:40   and it'll be useful to be able to step through

01:00:42   in the debugger a bunch of bottom level .NET code,

01:00:46   stepping through the source.

01:00:47   Maybe you could have already done that anyway,

01:00:48   because I think the source was already available

01:00:50   because, but it wasn't available in a way

01:00:52   that was open source that could be integrated.

01:00:53   So I don't know. - Correct.

01:00:55   - Microsoft is just hoping that people will build on this

01:00:58   and it will become a foundation for lots of other projects.

01:01:00   I mean, the best thing that could happen to them

01:01:02   is someone finally takes this core stuff

01:01:05   and builds some great new thing on top of it

01:01:07   because they can and they couldn't before.

01:01:09   Like they didn't wanna have to deal with that stuff.

01:01:10   That we need a language runtime and we need a good compiler

01:01:15   and we wanna be able to do our development in a nice IDE

01:01:17   and we're gonna use that as a jumping off point

01:01:19   to build some bigger, better thing.

01:01:20   But I don't know what the odds of that happening are,

01:01:23   but they're non-zero now, I guess.

01:01:26   So just for grins and giggles, let's say that Swift is not a thing.

01:01:31   It's not even in progress.

01:01:33   Would Apple have used C# and/or .NET to become what is now Swift?

01:01:40   I think the answer is absolutely not because they want total control.

01:01:43   But let's assume that...

01:01:45   Well, they could have total control with this, couldn't they?

01:01:47   Isn't it?

01:01:48   I think there's going to be pieces that are missing.

01:01:50   In the same way that, shoot, what is it?

01:01:54   Is it Darwin is the open source project,

01:01:56   but mock, or am I getting that backwards?

01:01:59   You know what I'm thinking of

01:02:00   where you could build most of OS X.

01:02:01   - Well, they're just like the closed source drivers

01:02:03   and everything, like things for ATI

01:02:04   that has proprietary code.

01:02:05   There's a bunch of like legal stuff.

01:02:07   It's not like they're hiding that stuff.

01:02:08   It's just that any code that involves,

01:02:09   anything that involves code that is owned

01:02:12   by companies other than Apple,

01:02:13   like video card makers or even like,

01:02:16   there's a bunch of drivers that aren't open source.

01:02:19   You can't build a Yosemite kernel from the open source

01:02:22   because it's just stuff that's not included in there.

01:02:24   But for ownership, like KHTML was not owned by Apple,

01:02:29   but they took it, forked it, and ran with it.

01:02:31   WebKit is owned by Apple, you know what I mean?

01:02:33   So they could, but I think that Apple would not adopt

01:02:36   this open source or not just because knowing enough

01:02:39   about the people involved in the process,

01:02:41   this is not what they want.

01:02:43   And so it's not so much that, oh, we would have taken .NET

01:02:46   if only it was open source.

01:02:48   Swift is a different direction, right?

01:02:50   Swift is not common language runtime.

01:02:52   It is not garbage collection.

01:02:53   It is so many things that it's not.

01:02:56   So for that reason alone, they wouldn't take it.

01:02:59   But if the current set of people who make these decisions

01:03:03   at Apple did not work at Apple,

01:03:04   but in different set of people who did,

01:03:06   this would have changed the math on can we adopt .NET,

01:03:09   suddenly it'll become a lot more viable.

01:03:11   - Yep, and okay, so I agree with you completely there.

01:03:14   Now, what is this name?

01:03:16   Andy Rubin is just creating Android today.

01:03:19   Android does not exist yet.

01:03:21   Does he still use-- don't call it Java Java?

01:03:24   They picked something that was not owned by them.

01:03:27   It was, at that time, sort of invented by Sun.

01:03:30   And they're in a legal fight with Oracle

01:03:33   over the copywriting APIs.

01:03:35   And even though they're using a different VM

01:03:38   that they wrote themselves, the thing

01:03:41   that they did end up picking, Java,

01:03:42   It's not a clean, they didn't make a clean getaway

01:03:45   with that legally speaking.

01:03:47   So I don't see how .NET is any worse.

01:03:50   - Their official strategy was just steal it,

01:03:52   we'll worry about it later.

01:03:54   - Yeah, well it's like, is it stealing,

01:03:56   'cause it gets into the whole can you copyright an API,

01:03:58   'cause they did-- - Excuse me.

01:03:59   Just rip it off, we'll worry about it later.

01:04:01   (laughing)

01:04:02   - It's kind of like a clean room re-implementation,

01:04:04   but it's like, there's a spec,

01:04:06   there's a public spec out there,

01:04:07   we're gonna make our own VM.

01:04:09   I'm assuming they didn't use any source code

01:04:10   from any of the Java virtual machines,

01:04:12   that is their own thing that does things in a different way.

01:04:14   It's all just of like, oh, well,

01:04:15   you implemented this all yourself

01:04:16   and you wrote all your own source code,

01:04:18   but the API, the functions, the parameters,

01:04:20   the, you know, all that, that's copyrighted.

01:04:23   And so they basically did a clean reimplementation of Java.

01:04:26   I don't know what the details are of like,

01:04:28   you can argue about what things got used where,

01:04:30   but I don't like the idea of an API being copy,

01:04:34   a published API being copyrighted.

01:04:37   So I'm not gonna blame Google for doing this,

01:04:40   So practically speaking though, I don't see how .NET,

01:04:44   the current open source .NET could possibly be any worse

01:04:46   than the situation they're currently in with Java.

01:04:48   So, and I think it would be a better choice for them

01:04:51   than Java, 'cause they would have to do less work.

01:04:53   Like they could take the virtual machine

01:04:56   and everything free and clear.

01:04:57   Like it's an open source license.

01:04:58   It's not like they have to re-implement it, right?

01:05:01   - Right, right.

01:05:02   - So, and I also like C# better than Java, so there's that.

01:05:05   - Yep, well, that's the thing is that C#,

01:05:08   I've talked in the past to a handful of people about how C# really is good.

01:05:13   And most worldly developers in the Apple community at least appreciate it, if not agree with

01:05:21   me.

01:05:22   But there's certainly some that are like, "Oh, God, it's Microsoft.

01:05:24   I can't stand it."

01:05:25   No.

01:05:26   And C# really is a really, really great, really robust language.

01:05:30   And even though it tries to be in many ways all things to all people, it actually does

01:05:35   a pretty darn good job of it all in all.

01:05:38   And it's moving forward but not at a breakneck pace.

01:05:42   So it's moving forward in a way that's sustainable.

01:05:45   There's not bugs everywhere, at least in any of the things that I touch in my day-to-day

01:05:49   life.

01:05:50   It's a really robust language.

01:05:51   And as much as I don't have that much love for Microsoft, I really do love C#.

01:05:57   And if I were to just flip a switch and become a full-time Objective-C or Swift developer

01:06:02   tomorrow, there are certainly things about C# that I would miss.

01:06:07   And there's a lot that I really think they got right.

01:06:09   And so I'm very curious to see,

01:06:12   does this change how C# is treated?

01:06:16   Not from a like, oh, it's good or oh, it's bad.

01:06:18   But like you were saying earlier, John,

01:06:20   is someone going to take C#

01:06:22   and really run with it in the future?

01:06:24   Or, I mean, strictly speaking,

01:06:25   I guess you could do that with VB as well.

01:06:27   I mean, .NET is more than just C#.

01:06:29   But I don't know, I'm curious to see what this brings.

01:06:33   - I think it's unlikely because C# is kind of,

01:06:35   Like the reason C# is, I think, nicer than Java

01:06:39   is 'cause it got to learn the lessons of Java.

01:06:41   - Sure. - Right?

01:06:42   So someone went first, made a bunch of mistakes.

01:06:45   C# didn't make those same mistakes.

01:06:47   And I think C# has been developed steadily

01:06:50   with a little bit more singular vision, let's say,

01:06:54   instead of the sort of committee design of Java

01:06:56   seems to be lurching forward

01:06:58   and not quite as confident in a way.

01:07:00   But at this point, both of those languages are of a vintage

01:07:04   that people, like, I'm not gonna say people

01:07:07   are more likely to build something in Swift

01:07:09   if Swift was suddenly open source,

01:07:10   but the kinds of projects that get built,

01:07:14   like the kind of applications it seems like

01:07:17   that the CLR is most appropriate for

01:07:19   is I would get server-side stuff

01:07:21   and like GUI client-side stuff.

01:07:23   But like, I can't imagine the next WebKit killer

01:07:27   being implemented in C# on top of .NET, right?

01:07:32   But just because it seems like it's still,

01:07:34   there's still this thing

01:07:36   and we can't quite get away from it of like,

01:07:38   you're either gonna use C, C++,

01:07:40   or one of these new breed of languages like Swift

01:07:43   that aims to be as fast as them,

01:07:45   but gives you these high level conveniences.

01:07:47   Or as soon as you go up into

01:07:49   something with garbage collection,

01:07:50   like server-side is totally okay with it,

01:07:52   which is weird because server-side is like,

01:07:53   the performance is so demanding there in terms of,

01:07:56   you know, a specific performance profile

01:07:59   is demanding there,

01:08:00   not quite the same thing as a GUI application.

01:08:02   But for I'm thinking of Linux like the open source people. I don't see them latching on to C# as their language

01:08:08   I mean, they're the people who were going crazy with QT and everything

01:08:10   So they still seem to be stuck in sort of a lower level mindset

01:08:13   So I'm not sure maybe

01:08:14   Maybe need one more generation of people to wake up and say I'm gonna write a new great thing and I'm not gonna do in C++

01:08:19   Or C. Why don't I just use C#? It's like we need the infrastructure to be there first

01:08:23   We need like every Linux distribution to come

01:08:25   not just with mono but with like a

01:08:28   more officially supported like

01:08:31   Microsoft-blessed stack that's in sync with Microsoft's code releases to be able to use

01:08:37   C# as your development language.

01:08:39   See, I don't know.

01:08:40   I think a lot of the reason that the Linux community hasn't embraced, like, Mono, for

01:08:44   example, is because there's such a bunch of neckbeards that love C and C++ so damn much.

01:08:50   And granted, I haven't been a participant in the Linux community in seven, eight years,

01:08:55   something like that.

01:08:56   At the time, it seemed like it was all about having a barrier of entry.

01:09:05   And if you weren't like a god at C or C++, then you know what? You're not good enough to be in our cool kid club.

01:09:11   And last I heard, that hasn't really changed, but again, I haven't paid attention in almost a decade.

01:09:16   Yeah, I don't know. Open source is difficult because whenever I think of open source stuff, I don't think of the GUI stuff.

01:09:21   Even though there have been GUI things based on every language you could possibly imagine.

01:09:25   All the way up to including like Tcl or whatever, right?

01:09:28   You know, it's not as if people aren't doing it.

01:09:30   This is just not one unified phase of hell.

01:09:32   There was a, what was the OpenStep port?

01:09:34   What the hell was that called?

01:09:37   - I don't know.

01:09:38   - Anyway, someone ages ago,

01:09:40   Goodoostep, there you go,

01:09:41   ported the OpenStep APIs.

01:09:43   And that's like, what if someone,

01:09:45   what if AppKit was available for Linux?

01:09:47   Boy, that would change things.

01:09:48   Well, AppKit was practically available for Linux

01:09:51   for a long time, but you know,

01:09:54   It wasn't officially sanctioned.

01:09:56   It was a small group of people making it,

01:09:57   and it's not like people are clamoring

01:09:59   to make apps like that.

01:10:00   So the most important things to come out of

01:10:02   sort of the Linux open source community

01:10:04   are things like KHTML and earlier Apache and stuff like that

01:10:09   like faceless applications written in low level languages.

01:10:14   Those are okay, but as soon as you get into anything gooey,

01:10:16   it's like just don't look to the Linux community for any,

01:10:18   or file systems, another example,

01:10:21   coming from ZFS coming from Sun, BTRFS,

01:10:23   Like those things tend to come out of the open source world.

01:10:28   And so if .NET and C# want to help in that regard,

01:10:31   they can give some new tools to that crowd,

01:10:34   but it's not, you don't see anything coming out of there

01:10:37   that's like anything higher level than that.

01:10:39   Can you think of like an exciting thing that is not faceless

01:10:43   that has come out of the open source/Linux community

01:10:47   in the last decade or so that has made an impact

01:10:50   on the wider world of computing?

01:10:53   - Mm, Wireshark, Audacity, both nerdy tools.

01:10:56   - Adium, also a nerdy tool.

01:10:58   - Someone said Git, that's not, that's faceless.

01:11:00   - Yeah, and Git needs a million front ends on it

01:11:03   to make it usable.

01:11:03   - Yeah, and Git should get,

01:11:05   Git is not only a backend in faceless, but it's just gross.

01:11:09   - Like even the Git commands that you use

01:11:11   in the command line are themselves front ends

01:11:13   to like five other commands under the hood

01:11:15   that are actually doing the thing you want to do.

01:11:17   - Yeah, Git is not a great example of user interface,

01:11:22   even in a faceless application.

01:11:24   - Git is exactly what you would expect

01:11:26   from the creator of Linux making something complicated.

01:11:30   Like version control and distributed version control

01:11:33   are already very complicated problems.

01:11:35   Add to that the creator of Linux making the one

01:11:37   that he wants to use,

01:11:39   and Git is exactly what you'd expect that to be.

01:11:42   - Oh, here's an example.

01:11:43   Selenium, someone suggested Selenium.

01:11:45   That's still kind of server related.

01:11:48   Do you guys wanna use Selenium?

01:11:50   I guess there's a lot of tools that are either web-based

01:11:53   or have to do with testing things

01:11:55   that have to do with the web that probably count, maybe.

01:11:59   I don't know.

01:12:00   - PHP BB?

01:12:02   - No.

01:12:03   (laughing)

01:12:04   Of course you would type up with that.

01:12:05   - A lot of regular people have interacted with that.

01:12:08   - I mean, Xamarin has had more of an impact

01:12:11   because they let you write iOS apps, right?

01:12:12   Like that whole strategy of you can use this other stack

01:12:17   to write things, that's cross-platform, right?

01:12:20   You sort of shared core of an application

01:12:22   and you deploy on iOS and also on other platforms.

01:12:25   - Yeah, that's right.

01:12:26   I looked at Xamarin back when it was Mono Touch 1,

01:12:31   excuse me.

01:12:32   And at the time anyway,

01:12:34   it was exactly what I would have done

01:12:38   if I was trying to write a cross-platform setup for iOS,

01:12:43   in so far as basically they just wrote glue classes

01:12:49   classes where if you had, I don't know, UI activity view controller, whatever it is,

01:12:56   in Objective-C, you're going to have the exact same thing in C# with basically the

01:13:00   same API, just things translated to be a little more friendly to the C# world.

01:13:06   And the C# classes were just really heavily annotated with attributes and whatnots to

01:13:10   describe what is supposed to happen.

01:13:13   And so what that meant was, and this is true, I believe, of monodroid or whatever it's

01:13:17   called Xamarin for Android now.

01:13:19   And so basically what that means is if you're going to write a cross-platform app, you would

01:13:24   presumably have the same business logic across both iOS and Android, and those would be the

01:13:29   exact same classes, completely shared, et cetera.

01:13:32   But you would be pretty much compelled to have a user interface specific for each platform.

01:13:38   This is in contrast to something like a phone gap, which is all JavaScript-based, and they

01:13:43   try to make the user interface code generic amongst both platforms as well.

01:13:48   And PhoneGap does a reasonably good job given what it is.

01:13:51   So for example, when you ask for, I think it's maybe I'm thinking of

01:13:54   titanium actually, it doesn't matter.

01:13:56   One of the JavaScript ones, um, when you ask for tab bar, you'll get a UI

01:14:00   tab bar and iOS, and it'll be at the bottom.

01:14:03   And if you ask for tab bar and Android, you'll get whatever the

01:14:05   Android equivalent is, and it'll be on the top, but it's still trying

01:14:10   to be all things to all people.

01:14:11   Whereas Xamarin at the time anyway, was not that way.

01:14:15   And you would have to definitely write

01:14:18   separate user interfaces per platform.

01:14:20   - But you would share all your core logic

01:14:22   and your sort of your business objects

01:14:24   and everything like that.

01:14:25   So I think that C# already probably has done more

01:14:29   to bring or Xamarin and Monotetchnals

01:14:33   have done more to bring Microsoft's tools

01:14:35   to the wider GUI community than probably

01:14:37   the accumulated mass of every GUI effort

01:14:40   that has come out of the Linux world.

01:14:42   Anyway, it's just interesting.

01:14:43   I'm very curious to see where it goes.

01:14:45   To be honest, like I said, I don't

01:14:46   know that it'll affect much unless somebody, like John

01:14:48   had said, embraces this to make some wonderful new thing.

01:14:52   But I was somewhat surprised to see it,

01:14:56   and I'm excited to see what comes of it.

01:15:00   Now, before we move on, out of curiosity,

01:15:03   what do you guys use at work or in retirement for you, Marco?

01:15:08   What do you use for version control if not Git?

01:15:10   - Oh, I use Git for the same reason

01:15:12   that a lot of people use Git,

01:15:13   which is that GitHub's really good,

01:15:15   and that if I want to use a lot of open source anything,

01:15:19   like if I want to open source a library,

01:15:22   if I want to open source something,

01:15:23   generally speaking, you need,

01:15:26   it is wise if you want to have any contributions

01:15:30   or any interaction with other developers,

01:15:32   it is wise to use GitHub, and therefore I use Git.

01:15:36   I don't know, there's a lot of areas in my life

01:15:37   before I kind of pick the alternative team.

01:15:41   And for whatever reason, I didn't do that this time,

01:15:43   because there's a lot of downsides to that approach

01:15:44   a lot of times, like when I bought the DVD+RW drive,

01:15:47   that was dumb.

01:15:49   (laughing)

01:15:50   So many things that I've done this time.

01:15:52   - As long as you didn't have DVD RAM, then you're fine.

01:15:54   - I did not have DVD RAM.

01:15:56   I don't know why there's a DVD RAM emoji.

01:15:58   DVD RAM was never popular.

01:16:00   It's not like it was just outdated,

01:16:01   like it was never ever popular among anybody,

01:16:04   but regardless, I did not,

01:16:06   I almost, I was tempted to buy DVD RAM

01:16:08   because it's so much better for data integrity.

01:16:10   It actually is way better in so many ways for integrity.

01:16:14   But I resisted it and instead bought DVD plus RW

01:16:18   back before they were combo drives, which was very stupid.

01:16:21   But anyway, yeah, this time I didn't go

01:16:25   for the alternative team, I went for the big team

01:16:27   and like I said, let's root for the Yankees

01:16:29   and it'll be easier and hey, I made a sports metaphor.

01:16:32   - I was about to say.

01:16:34   - Good is not the Yankees, please.

01:16:36   Is that up to date or is that outdated information?

01:16:38   - No, it was never, Git was never the Yankees.

01:16:40   - So what do you use at work, Jon?

01:16:42   - Oh, you know, it's not you have a choice at work.

01:16:44   I use Perforce at work.

01:16:45   And for the centralized version,

01:16:48   non-distributed version control systems,

01:16:50   so non-material, not Git, not Bitlock,

01:16:52   or like the old school style,

01:16:54   a sort of CVS subversion style,

01:16:56   I like Perforce better than any of these

01:16:59   other centralized ones I've used.

01:17:00   - Yep, completely agree.

01:17:02   - It has many things not to recommend it.

01:17:04   (laughing)

01:17:06   It's so once, so the decentralized ones come on the scene

01:17:10   and they all work according to a paradigm

01:17:12   that is totally foreign to Perforth, right?

01:17:13   And so it can't change, it can't change its stripes,

01:17:15   can't be like, now I'm decentralized, it's just not.

01:17:18   It's like everything about it,

01:17:20   it's baked into the design of Perforth.

01:17:22   It's never going to be like it or Mercurial or something.

01:17:25   But it feels the need to add weird

01:17:28   sort of half-hearted marketing features

01:17:31   like the P4 shell feature that showed up a few years ago

01:17:33   but it's like, just don't even try.

01:17:35   Like that's not, ugh, I don't know.

01:17:37   So Perforce does bother me every time I think

01:17:40   about how much easier this would be

01:17:41   on one of the more modern version control systems.

01:17:44   But if I just go backwards into the old mindset,

01:17:46   it's my favorite of an old outdated lot.

01:17:51   - Yeah, I used Perforce at my very first job

01:17:54   and this was 2004 and at the time I really liked it,

01:17:57   but obviously the world has moved on, like you said.

01:17:59   So if you were to do a personal project right now,

01:18:02   or if work asked you, "Hey, John, what would you like to use?"

01:18:06   And the whole company will use that.

01:18:08   What would you recommend?

01:18:10   - I would use Git, but I would hold my nose the whole time.

01:18:12   Like, one person in the chat room

01:18:15   apparently has never heard people say that Git is gross.

01:18:17   Git is totally gross, not in the functionality that it has,

01:18:21   but in the user interface.

01:18:22   And yes, command line programs have a user interface,

01:18:25   and Git's user interface, when you design a program,

01:18:27   the user interface is sort of,

01:18:29   you have to build sort of the user model

01:18:31   of how this program works, right?

01:18:32   you've got the model of how the internal guts

01:18:34   of the program work and you have to provide a user model

01:18:36   and a set of vocabulary and a series of nouns and verbs

01:18:40   that expose the functionality that you've made possible

01:18:43   with your application in a friendly way

01:18:44   and Git totally fails in that, just totally fails.

01:18:46   The words they pick for everything,

01:18:48   the options they use to represent those words,

01:18:50   the whole big structure of the Git subcommands

01:18:53   and the flags and how they go to it and the different,

01:18:54   oh, it's just terrible.

01:18:55   I mean, there's a million web pages about it.

01:18:56   It is a total user interface failure.

01:18:59   But you know, the functionality is great and it's free

01:19:02   and it's open source and GitHub exists.

01:19:04   So there are many other things to recommend

01:19:05   and it comes out ahead in net net,

01:19:08   but that doesn't mean it's not gross.

01:19:09   I mean, yuck.

01:19:11   - Now, have you played with Mercurial,

01:19:15   which I cannot pronounce apparently,

01:19:17   because was it Daniel Jalkut

01:19:19   that was on a tirade about that?

01:19:21   - Yeah, Jalkut's still rocking the Mercurial, I think.

01:19:24   Like he made the more elegant choice,

01:19:26   but it's just like, it's swimming against the tide, right?

01:19:29   'Cause everything, like so much infrastructure

01:19:32   and is built around Git,

01:19:34   and people just expect you to use it.

01:19:35   And it's like, if Mercurial had won,

01:19:38   it's like, you know, if Betamax had won instead of VHS,

01:19:42   but bottom line is, you know, VHS won, and so here we are.

01:19:46   That's a better analogy than the Yankees, I think.

01:19:48   (laughing)

01:19:49   - Here it is, Marco, you tried that one time,

01:19:51   and this is what you get for it.

01:19:53   - I'll never try again.

01:19:54   - Yeah, in the chat room,

01:19:57   someone whose name I'm not gonna try to pronounce

01:19:58   says that Mercurial is basically Git with fewer features,

01:20:01   a better UI and a slower implementation.

01:20:03   Speed is actually a concern, speaking of operations in Git,

01:20:06   and someone from the chat room will correct me

01:20:08   within 30 seconds as soon as they hear this if I'm wrong,

01:20:11   scale linearly with the number of files, which is fine

01:20:13   if you have a small repository.

01:20:15   At work, we have a ridiculous, gigantic repository

01:20:19   that is way too big.

01:20:21   And Perforce is actually faster than Git

01:20:23   for doing common operations.

01:20:26   So that's not a slam against Git.

01:20:28   Does it slam against how we manage our code?

01:20:32   But that is something to consider,

01:20:34   and that's another reason.

01:20:35   Mercurial is not a clean win over Git.

01:20:37   It may have a nicer interface,

01:20:39   and a more well thought out sort of way

01:20:41   that describes its functionality,

01:20:43   but Git has a lot of developer time behind it,

01:20:45   and Git has a lot of features,

01:20:48   and can do a lot of amazing things,

01:20:49   and the tools and the ecosystem built around Git

01:20:51   make it more valuable than Mercurial.

01:20:53   - Cool.

01:20:55   - On that bombshell,

01:20:57   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:20:59   Mandrill, Squarespace, and Hover,

01:21:02   and we will see you next week.

01:21:04   (upbeat music)

01:21:06   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:21:09   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:21:11   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:21:13   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:21:14   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:21:16   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:21:17   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:21:19   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:21:22   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:21:23   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:21:25   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:21:26   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM And if you're into Twitter, you can follow

01:21:33   them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:21:43   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:21:53   It's accidental, accidental.

01:21:56   They didn't mean to.

01:21:59   Accidental, accidental.

01:22:01   Tech podcast so long.

01:22:06   Because of the agreement that you have with analog,

01:22:12   first of all, how is your baby monitor doing?

01:22:14   What is this agreement?

01:22:16   I'm not caught up in analog, even though I

01:22:18   heard a recent one live.

01:22:19   Basically, Mike had said, mostly jokingly,

01:22:22   that he is going to,

01:22:24   actually I don't think we've released this one yet,

01:22:26   this might be the one.

01:22:27   - Well he's proposing some kind of agreement

01:22:30   between the two shows,

01:22:31   that most of the feelings will go on their show

01:22:35   'cause most of the tech is gonna go on our show.

01:22:38   - Denied.

01:22:39   (laughing)

01:22:40   Yeah, I think I remember here,

01:22:41   now this is ringing a bell, that's total bogus,

01:22:45   just reject this offer immediately,

01:22:48   furthermore declare war against that podcast.

01:22:50   Oh, God, that's awesome.

01:22:51   No, the baby monitor is good.

01:22:56   We basically have the same baby monitor that you have.

01:22:58   Yeah, yeah.

01:22:59   But no, baby's good.

01:23:04   Every day is a little different, but in ways I can't describe, which is the oddest thing.

01:23:08   He looks a little bit different, kind of acts a little bit different.

01:23:12   And again, I wish I could tell you a specific way in which that's the case, but every

01:23:16   day is just a little bit different.

01:23:18   you're that young. I mean he's two weeks today actually. It's just everything is expected in

01:23:23   some ways to be different. Like today we noticed actually here's an empirical example or a specific

01:23:27   example we noticed that I think he's starting to be able to cry as in generate tears. Obviously he

01:23:33   wails and moans on occasion sometimes often but I don't think he was able to generate tears until

01:23:39   tonight we saw yeah wait wait wait I think that's a tear. I think that's a tear you know so that's

01:23:46   new but I mean all in all everything's fine still sleeping more than expected less than

01:23:51   desired but you know it's all good.

01:23:54   So as some general advice things change quickly and like like he in in six months he's going

01:24:01   to look completely different.

01:24:02   Oh yeah.

01:24:03   Six months after that he'll look completely different again and and he'll you know of

01:24:08   course he'll act different he'll get more abilities.

01:24:12   What I would recommend is, you probably already do this,

01:24:15   but don't forget to take pictures

01:24:17   and don't forget to take video.

01:24:20   I would suggest leaving your camera out,

01:24:22   like leave it on the coffee table

01:24:24   or somewhere on a kitchen counter,

01:24:26   leave it out so that taking a picture of him

01:24:30   doesn't require setup.

01:24:33   Like you can always just grab the camera and take a picture.

01:24:35   Make it very casual, make it an everyday easy thing to do.

01:24:41   if you, and again, and don't forget to take videos.

01:24:45   Whether it's just iPhone videos

01:24:47   or fancy camera videos is fine.

01:24:49   It doesn't, it matters less for video

01:24:51   with the technical quality of it,

01:24:53   but video really captures time and captures a moment

01:24:58   in a way that a lot of photos, they can,

01:25:01   but video just captures a whole other dimension of it.

01:25:03   And so don't go six months without taking a video.

01:25:08   'Cause what you're gonna see is you're gonna look back

01:25:11   in a year and be like, oh my god,

01:25:14   I can't believe he used to look like that,

01:25:16   or I don't even remember that time when he was doing that.

01:25:20   Because it does change so quickly,

01:25:22   especially during this first two years.

01:25:24   - Yeah, it's funny you bring that up

01:25:25   because a friend of the show, underscore David Smith,

01:25:28   actually came down this morning.

01:25:30   I had the morning off from work,

01:25:32   and so he came down to visit and meet Declan,

01:25:34   and I've had our fancy cameras

01:25:37   basically sitting on our coffee table just about always,

01:25:39   So either Aaron or I can grab it and take a picture.

01:25:42   And at one point, he allowed Aaron and I

01:25:46   to hold Declan for a moment.

01:25:48   And I mean that in a good way, not in a bad way.

01:25:51   And so all of a sudden I heard the shutter

01:25:54   going in the background because Dave's a nice guy

01:25:57   and he picked up the camera and started taking

01:26:00   a few pictures of the three of us,

01:26:03   which I actually, that reminds me,

01:26:04   I haven't gone back to look and I'm sure they're gorgeous

01:26:06   because he's a really good photographer.

01:26:08   But it's because it was just sitting there

01:26:11   and because he knows that I wouldn't mind him doing that.

01:26:15   In fact, I appreciated it.

01:26:16   You know, he was able to take a few shots of us.

01:26:18   And I got to assume that at least one,

01:26:19   if not several of those are gonna be really awesome.

01:26:21   Especially because it's not often

01:26:23   that you have all of us, all three of us in one shot,

01:26:25   because usually it's either me or Aaron taking the picture.

01:26:28   So I hear you.

01:26:30   - Yeah, that was a good move by underscore.

01:26:32   - He's the best.

01:26:33   - Do you have a picture taking, first of all,

01:26:36   are you going to have formal pictures taken

01:26:38   on any sort of schedule, and if so, what is that schedule?

01:26:41   - I need to know your schedule.

01:26:43   - So it depends on how you define formal.

01:26:46   We are taking pictures every week.

01:26:48   - I mean, like, you have a professional photographer

01:26:50   take them, of all of you, basically.

01:26:52   - We haven't really talked about it.

01:26:53   We did have professional shots taken

01:26:56   when we were at the hospital,

01:26:57   which, if you'll permit me to go on a rant,

01:27:00   I can go on a rant about,

01:27:01   but I don't know about other than that.

01:27:04   I was thinking, and I haven't talked to Aaron about this yet,

01:27:06   maybe like every year we might do it,

01:27:08   especially in the beginning,

01:27:09   when he's still changing all the time.

01:27:12   I don't necessarily feel like we need to do that

01:27:15   every year forever more, but I don't know,

01:27:16   remind me of that after I've done this

01:27:18   for 18 years straight, so. (laughs)

01:27:21   I don't know.

01:27:22   - You should ask Erin about it,

01:27:23   'cause you haven't had this discussion before,

01:27:24   she may have a different plan in mind.

01:27:26   - Oh, very much so.

01:27:27   I mean, who knows?

01:27:28   But we'll see.

01:27:29   I mean, I'm just happy that we have friends and family

01:27:33   around that will take pictures of us with a decent camera and

01:27:37   that we have a decent camera, but obviously there's something

01:27:39   to be said for professional shots.

01:27:41   And so when we were in the hospital, and this, this isn't

01:27:43   going to make it in the release show because it's stupid, but it

01:27:45   pisses me off when we were in the hospital, um, you know, the, the

01:27:49   blessed hospital photographer company comes around to say, would

01:27:53   you like us to take pictures?

01:27:54   And I knew this was coming because a coworker of mine, his wife does

01:27:56   it, but for a different company.

01:27:58   So it's, yeah, sure.

01:27:59   You don't take some pictures.

01:28:00   And so they set up Declan and like basically she took the end of Aaron's hospital bed

01:28:05   and

01:28:05   which had all white sheets and like did some magic where she fluffed the sheets in such a way that it looked like a

01:28:11   freaking like set like a photography set and you'll put Declan in it and you know took pictures with Declan on it on his side

01:28:19   and on his back and then we were holding him and then there was one that's really adorable where that's just his feet with our

01:28:25   wedding rings on him and

01:28:27   And so they were there were only about 10 or 20 shots that we got

01:28:31   in the mail because of course we paid for them and blah blah blah and

01:28:34   The thing that really bothered me was when the woman was in there the photographer was in there

01:28:38   she was um

01:28:40   She was really really nice and seemed to be very good at what she does and she was using either a Canon or Nikon

01:28:46   DSLR I don't recall exactly what well I get these pictures in the mail and of among other things I got a CD with

01:28:53   with with the digital files on it and

01:28:56   And these pictures that I got in the mail, the file size of each of these pictures that came off a DSLR that mustn't have been more than a year or two old was one and a half megs.

01:29:09   What?

01:29:10   Yeah, you got, you definitely got, you know, resized JPEGs out of something. Yeah, that's...

01:29:16   Anything they're selling you in the hospital is always, it's like anything you get inside a theme park.

01:29:22   Yeah, exactly.

01:29:23   Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.

01:29:24   It's so true and the doubly annoying thing was just on principle not because it mattered but just on principle not only was

01:29:31   The JPEG hyper compressed. I think it was like 2500 pixels by 1500 pixels or thereabouts

01:29:36   but

01:29:38   Right, I mean you especially Marco should know how funny that is

01:29:41   But but not only that they deliberately stripped all the exif data

01:29:45   Do I need that exif data? No, of course not but the fact that some way during their whatever workflow

01:29:52   They stripped out the the the exif data. That's just insane to me and so obviously

01:30:01   It's been post-processed in some way and so I wrote an extraordinarily

01:30:05   Angry yet mildly polite email to them saying are you freaking kidding me? You should be giving me raw files for the $150

01:30:13   I paid you

01:30:15   But I would I would just be happy with the un-pity version of the J of the compressed, you know

01:30:20   the JPEGs off the camera. I would really like a copy of those or my money back

01:30:25   and I got an extremely short email back from them saying...

01:30:29   Too bad.

01:30:30   No, no, it actually it said basically we're shipping you something don't throw away

01:30:34   the... or you you can feel free to throw away the thing you already have when the

01:30:38   new thing arrives.

01:30:39   All right.

01:30:40   I don't know if that means that they're sending me a new CD with different files, if they're

01:30:43   sending me a CD with the same files. I have no idea but I'm hopeful that

01:30:48   perhaps I will eventually be vindicated and they will send me files that are

01:30:53   bigger than 1500 by 2500. Good luck with that. Oh I know I'm there's no chance.

01:30:59   If you think $150 is expensive to get digital versions of professional

01:31:03   pictures you had taken maybe you should factor that into your schedule you're

01:31:07   planning. Yeah we should have Tiff come in if she's if she's around because this

01:31:12   is this is like a big part of of the photography business model and and it's

01:31:17   It's very challenging if you are a customer looking for a photographer who will give you

01:31:23   the digital files at a reasonable cost, especially like, and just give you the right to print

01:31:29   them yourself if you want to and post them to Facebook and everything.

01:31:32   That is not common among photographers.

01:31:35   It's slowly becoming more common, but it's still very uncommon.

01:31:38   - Well, it's common, but they'll charge you a bazillion dollars.

01:31:41   Charge you so much money that you are deterred from ever doing that.

01:31:44   The interesting thing about this though was, to their credit, they did on the CD that came

01:31:49   with these shitty versions of the digital pictures, they actually had a PDF, which was

01:31:55   a copyright release for personal use.

01:31:57   And that was extremely surprising to me because I remember when we were interviewing photographers

01:32:03   for our wedding, and this was in 2007, the guy we ended up going for very clearly was

01:32:11   extremely particular about how we were going to use the digital files he gave us.

01:32:17   And he did give us un-watermarked, completely unmolested JPEGs of every picture he took.

01:32:24   And in fact, when I asked him if he was going to strip the EXIF data, he looked at me funny

01:32:27   and said, "Wow, I've never had anyone ask me that before."

01:32:31   But that being said, he lectured us like 13 different times about how the only way you

01:32:36   can use this is to print things for yourself and your family, anything else, and he will

01:32:40   basically take us to court. And again, for the hospital pictures, it was very nice of

01:32:47   them to include a copyright release. I don't know why it would ever be an issue, but nevertheless,

01:32:52   if it is an issue, it's right there. And I can print it and say, "No, no, no, look,

01:32:55   I'm just printing it for myself. I'm not trying to sell it. Here's the copyright

01:32:58   release." I remember talking to Tiff about this at one point a year or two ago, just

01:33:03   out of curiosity, because it struck me weird that he was that into holding the copyright

01:33:09   for these pictures and my understanding is he wanted to be able to resell the

01:33:13   pictures he took of us to like wedding magazines and you know a bride old

01:33:18   magazines and wedding dress magazines. Well that's not that's not the real

01:33:23   reason because you can you can have like co-copyright like you like the

01:33:27   photographer can retain the copyright of the pictures that he or she takes but

01:33:31   can also grant you the rights to do whatever you want with them. And I think

01:33:34   that's what basically sort of kind of happened with these hospital pictures. It

01:33:38   it was not exactly clear what happened

01:33:40   with the wedding photographer pictures.

01:33:42   - Yeah, that's, well, and, you know,

01:33:46   especially the older photographers,

01:33:48   photographers who have been working before digital even,

01:33:50   like, you know, old school photographers,

01:33:52   they make such a big percentage of their money

01:33:57   from the prints and the books and all the crap

01:33:59   that you have to buy after the wedding,

01:34:00   they make so much money from that

01:34:02   that if you ask them for the source,

01:34:04   whether it's negatives or digital files,

01:34:07   to go do whatever you want with,

01:34:10   the reason why they don't want you doing that

01:34:11   is 'cause that's gonna cut into a lot of their money.

01:34:14   And it's a lot better, it's a simpler business model

01:34:18   if you just charge more upfront.

01:34:21   Just say, all right, well, if I need to make $2,000

01:34:25   from your shoot, rather than charging $1,000 for the shoot

01:34:28   and then $600 for each book that you wanna order,

01:34:31   and of course you wanna get one from your grandparents

01:34:33   and one from your parents and one for yourself

01:34:35   and one for this aunt.

01:34:37   instead of doing all that, just charge $2,000 up front

01:34:41   and then just let them buy prints at cost.

01:34:45   And that's what Tiff does, that's been Tiff's,

01:34:46   I wish she should come in here and tell you this,

01:34:50   that's Tiff's entire business model for her photo business.

01:34:53   That's how she does it.

01:34:54   She just charges more up front

01:34:56   and gives people digital files,

01:34:58   'cause what most people wanna do is post them to Facebook

01:35:00   and send them to their friends and stuff,

01:35:01   and no one gets prints anymore.

01:35:04   - Right, right, exactly.

01:35:06   And she's integrated with a big professional printer

01:35:10   and she just offers those prints at some tiny margin

01:35:15   above cost to make it worth her sending the files in.

01:35:18   She's basically offering them at cost.

01:35:21   So people can get professional prints made,

01:35:24   but most people don't.

01:35:26   And that's what most people want.

01:35:29   Most people want that out of their photographer.

01:35:33   And the younger photographers are more likely

01:35:37   to be willing to do that, but it's still a problem

01:35:40   when you get one of the old school ones

01:35:42   who still wants to do things the old fashioned way

01:35:44   where you spend hundreds of dollars

01:35:46   for prints after the fact.

01:35:48   - Yep, and it's funny because just the other day,

01:35:50   I don't know why I did, but I went looking up

01:35:52   to try to find the wedding photographer's website

01:35:56   to see kind of if he was still around or whatever.

01:35:58   Definitely not, he's definitely not

01:36:01   a wedding photographer anymore.

01:36:02   so I'm pretty sure I'm okay on the copyright stuff

01:36:05   because apparently he's not really making money

01:36:07   from it anyway.

01:36:09   - Well, 75 years after he dies,

01:36:11   you can do whatever you want with them.

01:36:12   - Hooray!

01:36:13   - Yeah, US copyright law.

01:36:15   - Yeah, but yeah, so we'll see what happens.

01:36:17   I should be getting this new CD in a week or two,

01:36:20   but it also strikes me as extremely peculiar

01:36:22   that it is the year 2014 and I'm still waiting on a CD

01:36:27   to get digital copies of pictures

01:36:28   that were taken two weeks ago.

01:36:31   - And you probably paid quite a premium for that CD.

01:36:34   - Oh hell yeah, it was around $150,

01:36:37   and we did get a few prints out of it.

01:36:39   But to your point a minute ago,

01:36:40   basically it was the CD is $130,

01:36:44   or something along those lines.

01:36:46   And for $20 more, you could get like 13 prints.

01:36:51   Again, I'm making up the details,

01:36:53   but something along those lines.

01:36:54   And so at that point it's like, well,

01:36:56   why not just get the 10 prints or whatever for the $20,

01:37:01   and so we got like a humongous picture of Declan

01:37:03   that's like 15 by 10 inches or something like that.

01:37:06   - Right, and see, and why not just charge $120 for the shoot

01:37:09   and have them email you the photos?

01:37:11   - Exactly, exactly.

01:37:13   - They'll make more that way.

01:37:16   It's actually like, they're wasting their money

01:37:18   making this stupid printed crap, and nobody wants it.

01:37:22   - Yeah, I don't get it.

01:37:23   - Well, don't forget to actually make prints though,

01:37:25   because you wanna have everything in digital.

01:37:27   You want the original files,

01:37:29   but if you want the aliens to dig up pictures of your child

01:37:32   after a human civilization is wiped out,

01:37:34   you gotta have paper ones so they'll get compressed

01:37:37   with all the rest of the stuff

01:37:38   and maybe be preserved in some little bubble

01:37:40   and they'll be able to find those.

01:37:42   'Cause they won't be able to read your digital stuff.

01:37:45   Even for your things,

01:37:46   like if you have a catastrophic data loss or something,

01:37:49   it's good to have prints of your family at relatives' houses.

01:37:54   - Yeah, oh yeah.

01:37:55   - Yeah, I mean, we'll see,

01:37:57   But I'm very anxious to see what happens.

01:37:59   And I had somebody in the chat, I think it was Brian Ash,

01:38:02   somebody said something along the lines of,

01:38:04   what happened with my email was a secretary read it,

01:38:07   thought that the CD was damaged,

01:38:09   and I'm about to get another copy of the exact same CD

01:38:12   that I already have, which is probably true.

01:38:14   - We just took a formal pictures,

01:38:16   we're on a yearly schedule at this point,

01:38:17   and we just took them, what, yesterday actually,

01:38:20   and the CD they gave us for the first time was unreadable.

01:38:23   So that was a shame.

01:38:24   - Can you get like a replacement?

01:38:26   Yeah, we got a replacement, but it was it was unreadable in a way

01:38:30   that revealed the first set of terrible Yosemite bugs that I've seen.

01:38:34   Is he stuck on a readable CD and finder freezes and eventually everything freezes

01:38:38   and I had to hard power down on my Mac, which is sad.

01:38:41   Oh, that's cool.

01:38:42   It doesn't even say like this disk is unreadable or like, you know, it's just

01:38:46   it was totally useless and does it while spinning the CD at high speed.

01:38:50   Yeah, I tried it in both of my optical drives, the optical drive

01:38:54   on the MacBook Pro and the optical drive on my Mac Pro at work,

01:38:56   which didn't freeze.

01:38:57   The Mac at work and the Mac here didn't freeze,

01:39:01   but my Mac Pro did.

01:39:02   Anyway, it was sad.

01:39:03   They put it on a thumb drive for us

01:39:06   and gave us a new CD, so it was fine.

01:39:08   - Yeah, Tiff actually started,

01:39:10   usually for her bigger photo packages,

01:39:13   she would always get these beautiful custom CDs

01:39:15   printed by the photo printing company

01:39:18   with custom booklets and everything.

01:39:19   The problem is, who has a CD drive anymore?

01:39:22   Those are on their way out for most people's computers.

01:39:25   Like, it is very possible if you make a CD for a photo client this year, they might not

01:39:31   own a computer that can read it.

01:39:33   And so she finally started switching over to thumb drives for the big clients, and for

01:39:38   the small ones she just sends them a Dropbox link.

01:39:42   And that's all most people need.

01:39:43   Like all this physical media is so quickly becoming outdated.

01:39:47   When we got this technology, one of the first things I did was I took our two or three DVDs

01:39:52   full of wedding pictures and immediately put them on the Synology, not only because I was

01:39:57   scared that eventually we wouldn't have a DVD drive in the house, but even more so,

01:40:02   and I think Jon you've talked about this a lot in the past, what if those DVDs eventually

01:40:05   rot to the point that I can't read them anymore?

01:40:08   Yeah, yeah, I have tons of opticalists that are probably bad.

01:40:11   Actually I pulled a bunch of old like anime and stuff out of opticalists and I think most

01:40:15   of them are good, but that's the thing with no data integrity.

01:40:17   I have no way of knowing.

01:40:19   I put them all in this analogy, but until and unless I watch every single one of them

01:40:23   through at one X speed, I don't know which one of them has gone corrupt.

01:40:26   I'll never know.

01:40:27   Yep.

01:40:28   So, yeah, so that's wedding—excuse me, not wedding photography.

01:40:31   That's baby photography in the year 2014.

01:40:34   See, we talked tech.

01:40:35   Mike should be happy with that.

01:40:36   Yeah, actually, that did kind of work out, didn't it?

01:40:39   I didn't think of it that way.

01:40:42   That's pretty funny.

01:40:42   [BLANK_AUDIO]