90: Speculative Abandonware


00:00:00   So how's it going so far?

00:00:02   - Going well.

00:00:03   The prediction that you two had for night one at home,

00:00:09   would you like to guess if it went as you expected

00:00:13   or not at all as you expected?

00:00:15   - I already heard an analog, right?

00:00:16   You'd already told the world.

00:00:18   - Did I already tell the world?

00:00:19   Did that already come? - Yeah.

00:00:20   - That didn't come out yet, did it?

00:00:21   - That's out? - No.

00:00:22   - I listened live.

00:00:23   - Oh, okay. - Oh, that doesn't count.

00:00:24   You're cheating.

00:00:25   - Yeah, you absolutely cheated.

00:00:26   Okay, so Marco, did it go as you expected,

00:00:28   which is to say it went not swimmingly,

00:00:31   or did Declan surprise everyone

00:00:34   and it went pretty much flawlessly?

00:00:37   - First night home from the hospital,

00:00:39   I'm saying it did not go flawlessly.

00:00:42   - Oh, it was a disaster.

00:00:43   - Yeah, that's-- - It was a disaster.

00:00:45   - It's simply unrealistic to expect otherwise.

00:00:46   I mean, it's not really his fault.

00:00:48   You know, zero year olds are pretty rough.

00:00:50   - If it goes perfectly, you'd be worried

00:00:52   that there's something wrong with the baby

00:00:53   and you'd be bringing them back to the hospital.

00:00:55   - That's true. - Get them inspected.

00:00:56   - 'Cause you'd be like, "This not failing to thrive

00:00:58   He's just too sleepy all the time, yeah.

00:01:00   - Now, it's actually funny you say that

00:01:01   'cause we did mention the pediatrician Monday

00:01:04   that he was really sleepy and we were letting him go

00:01:07   something like four-ish hours overnight

00:01:09   'cause he really didn't wake up to feed

00:01:11   and the pediatrician was like, "Uh-uh, no, not yet.

00:01:14   "That ain't your thing yet.

00:01:15   "You gotta wake that baby up."

00:01:16   And so that's what we've been doing.

00:01:17   And it's been, I mean, all in all,

00:01:20   it's actually, he's been really good.

00:01:22   The first night was a disaster

00:01:23   because we hadn't yet come to the conclusion

00:01:26   that divide and conquer is the answer.

00:01:27   And so, you know, here it is, I'm trying to be supportive

00:01:29   of Erin who is the only one who can actually feed Declan.

00:01:33   And I'm waking up and just kind of staring at her

00:01:35   while she's feeding him, not,

00:01:37   and there's no point in me being up,

00:01:38   but I'd wanna be supportive.

00:01:40   And it took us until basically the end of that night

00:01:42   where I think I said to her, "Listen, he's pissed off.

00:01:46   You haven't slept in forever.

00:01:47   You're the one who actually needs sleep right now.

00:01:49   You go to bed, I'll just entertain him for a couple hours."

00:01:53   And that's when kind of we had the epiphany

00:01:55   that divide and conquer is really the way to do it.

00:01:58   - Yeah, there is a purpose to you staying up

00:02:01   at the same time, and that's like to offer moral support

00:02:05   if your wife is the type of person who would resent you

00:02:09   if you were sleeping peacefully in the other room

00:02:10   while she was sleeping.

00:02:12   But eventually, yes, you will both get over that

00:02:15   because you will realize if either one of us

00:02:17   ever wants to sleep, we have to get over the notion

00:02:19   that all suffering must be shared.

00:02:20   (upbeat music)

00:02:22   - Which one of us said Adam Sandberg?

00:02:24   Was that me or John?

00:02:25   I did and then you confirmed it. We were trying to remember the name of some movie.

00:02:29   I'm like, "Oh, that's the thing with Adam Sandberg." And you said, "Yep."

00:02:32   But it's not—

00:02:33   I don't know—yeah, I don't know why I let that slide, because I knew it was Andy Sandberg, but apparently we had a brain fire.

00:02:37   Yeah, so did I. I knew it was Andy Sandberg, too. It just, you know, came out wrong.

00:02:39   Anyway, in case you were wondering, the man's name is Andy Sandberg.

00:02:43   So everybody was wrong except me.

00:02:45   You didn't say anything.

00:02:46   Right.

00:02:47   It didn't make you right, but you were—you are correct in saying you are not wrong.

00:02:50   You should have—you should have corrected me in real time, so you wouldn't have had this follow-up.

00:02:54   you could have done a real-time follow-up.

00:02:55   - You assume I know who that is

00:02:56   or what you were talking about.

00:02:57   - You know who Andy Samberg is, come on.

00:03:00   - You overestimate me.

00:03:01   No, you don't. (laughing)

00:03:02   - If you saw him, you'd be like, "Oh yeah, it's that guy."

00:03:04   Maybe you don't know the name.

00:03:05   - Yeah, that's maybe also unlikely.

00:03:08   - I think you would.

00:03:09   I mean, if you've ever seen a recent "Saturday Night Live,"

00:03:13   not now recent, but within the last five, 10 years recent,

00:03:17   if you've seen "Brooklyn Nine-Nine,"

00:03:19   and he's been in a bunch of movies too,

00:03:20   although they're escaping me off the top of my head.

00:03:22   So far I'm at zero for two.

00:03:24   - How about Lazy Sunday, which was a--

00:03:28   - Never heard of it.

00:03:29   - The original reference that you made was on a boat.

00:03:31   He's seen the on a boat thing.

00:03:32   I'm on a boat.

00:03:33   - The first time I saw that was when I recorded it

00:03:35   to insert into the show last week.

00:03:37   - Wow.

00:03:38   - I heard about it,

00:03:39   so I knew roughly what you were talking about,

00:03:42   but I didn't know anything else about,

00:03:45   like I had never heard the whole thing.

00:03:47   Same thing with (beep) in a box,

00:03:48   like when that came out, same people, right?

00:03:50   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:03:51   - Like two weeks earlier or something.

00:03:52   Yeah, that was like the entire world was obsessed with that and I didn't hear it for like six months

00:03:56   It was really funny. Uh, so Adam I kind of did it again. Andy Samberg is part of a trio called lonely Island

00:04:03   They're the ones who did the I'm on I'm on a boat song and they came out with an album

00:04:08   I don't know two three months ago

00:04:10   Maybe a little more than that and I read a review of it

00:04:13   Which is weird because I never read album reviews

00:04:15   but I read a review of it on like Rolling Stone or Pitchfork or something hipster and

00:04:20   The point that they made about the album was you know, it's supposed to be satirical rap

00:04:24   And so it's sort of kind of weird alish. Although weird al is deliberately goofy

00:04:30   Whereas they're more satirical in my personal estimation

00:04:33   well

00:04:34   anyway

00:04:34   They said that the problem with the Lonely Island album is that the music is

00:04:39   Good enough and the writing is good enough that it's not really that satirical after all and that and so they totally kind of

00:04:46   escape or missed the point of the entire album which was to be satirical and silly so that they accidentally made an album that was

00:04:52   Just good enough to not be taken as a joke, which was their intention exactly, right?

00:04:56   Yeah, no, it's weird. Should I be a little bit embarrassed that first of all, I had never heard t-pain before

00:05:02   but while watching the on the boat video I was

00:05:04   Like the only music I was actually enjoying was when t-pain was saying because it was actually singing and not just yelling

00:05:09   I'm so not a rap guy clearly. I mean, well the comedy behind that though is that he was autotuned to death

00:05:16   Like that was T-Pain's thing was, or at least as far as I knew, was he was like the first person to

00:05:21   really embrace auto-tune. Well, that's not fair. The first person that everyone realized really embraced auto-tune.

00:05:28   I think you could argue that many artists such as maybe Britney Spears had embraced auto-tune a long time before him.

00:05:33   But, but yeah, that's kind of his shtick and, and yeah.

00:05:36   Either way, he was definitely the most musical part of that,

00:05:39   which I was trying to get some kind of musical enjoyment out of it because I'm like, well,

00:05:44   If I'm gonna listen to something called music, I might as well attempt to extract some some enjoyment out of it

00:05:50   And that was the only source of any any promise in that whole thing. You didn't like the lyrics at all. I

00:05:56   Think one verse was kind of funny maybe but like the whole I was sitting there like this is still going

00:06:01   Like I couldn't believe how long that like they I figured that it was like a 45 second SNL skit

00:06:07   Not that they had made an entire, you know, three or four minute or whatever song out of it

00:06:11   No, it's it's it's the real deal. I think it should have stayed as a 30 seconds good

00:06:15   You should there's there's a couple of other

00:06:18   Couple other videos that they've done that are pretty good. They're a semicolon video

00:06:23   I thought was pretty awesome and it's all about using semicolons properly which which I thought was enjoyable

00:06:28   Sounds incredible you've seen that one right Marco. No, that's a good one. Put it in the show notes force Marco to watch it

00:06:35   I have seen nothing you have you have to understand any any question that begins with you know, surely you've seen blank

00:06:41   No, you do all day. I start sending you more links

00:06:44   Seriously, you assume going to actually watch them make TIFF press your little hand on the mouse button

00:06:49   Yeah, but I'll have to like manually switch into Chrome to make flash work to play it yeah not worth it

00:06:56   Well, I pause my music open my chrome ghetto. It's just not worth it. Well, what do you mean pause your music?

00:07:02   You're listening to fish. That's not music pause your noise

00:07:05   Open your open your flash ghetto

00:07:09   Etc. Anyway, what else is going on? What is what did walrus CP tell us John? That's Colin Peck run

00:07:16   Road tweeted to say that

00:07:19   Last show I was talking about they were using bundles for upgrades a concept. We discussed long ago and and last week's show

00:07:25   We posted I hope the link is in the show

00:07:28   It's of a screenshot of this actually happening in the store

00:07:31   And I mentioned the scenario where it could actually be more expensive

00:07:35   to get a second app as part of an upgrade bundle than it would be if you just bought the second app on its own and

00:07:40   Colin wrote in to say that apparently

00:07:42   You the store now forbids you from purchasing a bundle if it would be cheaper for you to buy

00:07:47   the the other apps like individually so I

00:07:51   Guess that's one workaround to this problem with bundle pricing

00:07:56   But it still seems pretty weird to me and complicated like people

00:07:59   I don't know what the message looks like because I didn't test it

00:08:01   I didn't have a scenario where I owned half of a bundle and I could try it out, but

00:08:04   but what does it say to you to let you understand

00:08:07   why you can't buy this bundle

00:08:08   and what you should do instead?

00:08:10   I don't know, it's very confusing.

00:08:11   - Yeah, it's very weird.

00:08:13   Additionally, somebody had asked us for you to explain

00:08:17   how you're handling trim support

00:08:19   with your new found baby SSD.

00:08:23   Can you recap what trim is

00:08:24   and then talk about what you're doing about it?

00:08:26   - Yeah, this was a common question

00:08:28   when I mentioned that I've got an SSD

00:08:30   because people who have, and it's a third party SSD

00:08:33   and I'm sticking it into a Mac,

00:08:34   that never had, didn't ship with an SSD.

00:08:36   And everyone wants to know about TRIM support.

00:08:39   What am I doing with TRIM support?

00:08:40   And that's a bunch of wrinkles related to Yosemite.

00:08:43   So TRIM, I don't even know what it stands for,

00:08:45   but TRIM is a command that gets sent to an SSD

00:08:49   that tells it that a bunch of blocks of data on it

00:08:53   are no longer being used.

00:08:55   So the SSD is free to sort of reclaim them for future use.

00:08:57   And this sounds weird.

00:08:58   It was like, why would you need this on an SSD?

00:09:00   Why don't you need this on a disk?

00:09:02   And it has to do with the way disks are addressed

00:09:05   by computers.

00:09:06   We're gonna use the Unix parlance.

00:09:07   It's like a block addressable device where it's just,

00:09:10   it's this device hanging out there and you,

00:09:12   instead of addressing it in bytes,

00:09:14   you can address it in blocks like, you know,

00:09:15   whatever, 4K or whatever.

00:09:17   Actually, that's, I don't wanna get into blocks.

00:09:19   Forget it, forget about the block thing.

00:09:21   - Just kidding.

00:09:22   - Just concentrate, yeah, concentrate on that as a,

00:09:24   well, you know, because there's file system blocks

00:09:26   and then there's the block address.

00:09:28   Anyway, yeah.

00:09:29   Yeah, now we're gonna get into file system.

00:09:30   So when you're addressing a disk,

00:09:33   you have to write a file system to it.

00:09:35   And the file system is the structures that you put on it

00:09:37   to keep track of where everything is.

00:09:39   So you have a little index over here on the disk

00:09:41   and you write it like a little tree or something.

00:09:43   And this is where I'm gonna look up where the files are.

00:09:46   And then there's a whole bunch of different techniques,

00:09:48   depending on the file system to find

00:09:49   where are the pieces of this file.

00:09:50   Are they big, long, continuous string?

00:09:52   Probably not.

00:09:53   Probably there's a bunch of pieces

00:09:54   and then a pointer to another bunch of pieces

00:09:56   and a pointer to another bunch of pieces.

00:09:57   And you've got blocks that direct you to other blocks

00:09:59   You've got a doubly indirect blocks and triply indirect

00:10:02   Well, I mean, this is all the realm of file system

00:10:04   The file systems job is to put a bunch of things on disks that are structured so we can find the data

00:10:08   And when you delete a file on most file systems

00:10:11   All you do is go to the little place where you would look up where all the stuff for the file is and you just erase

00:10:16   That entry it's like erasing an entry and like the index of a book, right?

00:10:21   It doesn't touch the actual data that belonged to the file the data that belonged to the file is still sitting there

00:10:26   All you did was erase like the bookkeeping information that the structures in the file system that would tell you where to find that stuff

00:10:31   And that's why you can undelete files if people remember undelete utilities back from the DOS days and everything like that

00:10:37   Because you know when you delete something it doesn't take as long as writing you don't you don't overwrite all the disks once you do

00:10:44   Some kind of secure delete that's fine for spinning disks

00:10:47   But for SSDs these are a little bit weird everything about memory chips is weird

00:10:50   And I don't know if this is true of all SSDs, which is a point we'll get to in a little bit but

00:10:55   uh for in the early days of SSDs and probably still is the case for most of them, the way the

00:11:01   memory is addressed in the little chips that make up the SSDs, you can't just grab one little sort

00:11:07   of block size piece and read and write it. When you want to write something you have to write it

00:11:13   in a large chunk even if you're just interested in one little piece of it. And furthermore you

00:11:19   can't write to a bunch of memory that already has stuff in it. So what you have to do is read

00:11:25   Read that entire gigantic chunk into some other memory, temporarily.

00:11:29   Erase that entire gigantic chunk, modify the little chunk you wanted to change in the copy

00:11:35   that you made in memory before you erased it, and then write the whole thing back.

00:11:38   Which seems incredibly inefficient, but that's the way SSDs work for a variety of reasons.

00:11:43   And that means that even if the space isn't used, like even if you erased the little entry

00:11:48   and said "Oh, that file's gone, I deleted it, I deleted that 5 gig movie," and it just

00:11:51   erases the little tiny lookup table of where those 5 gigs were, that 5 gig is data-driven,

00:11:55   is still in the chip so the next time you want to write something if it lands in one of those places

00:12:00   where that 5 gig file was it can't just go "oh I'm going to write that data there" it has to erase it

00:12:04   first you can't unlike a spinning disk where you can just write over any spot like writing is just

00:12:08   an operation where you say "I don't care where I'm writing" just start writing because it just you

00:12:11   know flips a little magnetic poles in the disk and you're all set you don't have to erase it before

00:12:15   you write but on SSD not only do you have to erase it before you write but you have to erase this big

00:12:19   gigantic block, modify the little bit in the copy that you got and then put the copy back on.

00:12:24   So the trim command is an optimization the operating system when it deletes a little file

00:12:29   It says okay. I'm going to delete this little entry from the file system

00:12:33   But also i'm going to send this command to the disk that says by the way

00:12:36   I deleted the entry for this for this file in the file system

00:12:38   So you should go and find all the blocks that belong to that thing or it'll tell you where those blocks are and say the

00:12:43   Mark, these is being freed. So it gives the ssd a chance

00:12:45   To erase those blocks so that when something needs to be written later

00:12:49   It doesn't find itself stumbling onto where you know

00:12:52   because here's the thing about the SSD, SSD has no idea about the file system

00:12:55   it is just a big addressable chunk of storage. The file system is all something that happens in the realm of the operating system

00:13:00   So the SSD has no idea what's a file, what's not a deleted file, it just obeys commands

00:13:05   It's just a stupid, you know, box for the most part

00:13:07   So that's why trim is useful because it lets the operating system tell the SSD

00:13:12   "I deleted a file" so all the blocks that belong to that file that were here, here, here, and here

00:13:17   They're not used anymore

00:13:19   So when you get a chance maybe in some idle time erase those because later when you need to write something

00:13:23   You can have some freshly erased spots

00:13:24   And this is by the way, one of the reasons that SSDs especially the early ones

00:13:27   would slow down when they got full because that would mean that the number of places that you can write like the places that are

00:13:32   Erased in an erase state would go down because you know, the SSD is almost full

00:13:37   So anytime I needed to write anything would have to read the entire chunk back

00:13:40   Erase the entire thing modify a little bit write it back. There wasn't any fresh sort of greenfield to put stuff in

00:13:46   So here's the here's the thing with trim Apple

00:13:48   I believe supports trim on most of its SSDs that it builds in most all I don't know what the situation is now

00:13:53   I think maybe all of them

00:13:55   But it doesn't support trim for third-party SSDs in general

00:14:00   So I bought a third-party SSD if you go to the system information application in Yosemite

00:14:06   You can you know select your little ATA bus or SATA bus or whatever your thing is on and it'll say trim support

00:14:13   Yes, or no and mine says no so people are asking hey

00:14:16   Did you use this thing called trim enablers all much as little system extension type things that will

00:14:20   Force the operating system to enable the trim command even if your SSD is not one supplied by Apple

00:14:25   That's what people have been doing in past versions of the US

00:14:29   But Yosemite will not load a kernel extension that has not been signed and to sign a kernel extension

00:14:35   You basically need to build it yourself

00:14:37   You need to sort of have the source code or something and compile it

00:14:39   But Apple does not release the source code to its what is it called?

00:14:42   AHCI advanced host something interface we should get that where is that in like that advanced host controller interface

00:14:49   Apple doesn't release the source code to those to that driver

00:14:53   For OS X so third parties can't make their own

00:14:57   Drivers and sign them and load them all they can do is these hacks they were doing before but Yosemite will basically refuse to load

00:15:04   kernel extension that isn't signed so the only way to get trim enabler to work in Yosemite is to turn off the thing that

00:15:10   Says I will only load signed kernel extensions

00:15:13   Which it's not a great thing to do because it is a good security feature in that

00:15:16   Like a virus or malware can't throw a kernel extension into your system like even if it gets like temporary root access because it tricks

00:15:23   You into entering your local password and it writes a kernel extension somewhere

00:15:26   And then you know you're rooted or whatever the system will not load a kernel extension

00:15:30   that isn't signed, and if they signed it,

00:15:32   presumably it's signed with an Apple developer ID,

00:15:34   Apple has some contact information,

00:15:35   like they could find the responsible parties.

00:15:37   Like if someone goes through the effort to make malware

00:15:40   with a signed kernel extension,

00:15:41   at least Apple would have some recourse

00:15:42   to find out who these people are,

00:15:43   because presumably that whatever

00:15:45   their authentication method is,

00:15:46   determining if you're a real person

00:15:47   and giving you a developer ID,

00:15:49   and they can also revoke your certificate

00:15:50   and validate that and do all sorts of other things

00:15:52   that we do with it.

00:15:53   So this is a very long-winded and possibly technically,

00:15:57   slightly technically inaccurate way

00:15:59   of getting to the question,

00:16:00   which was, am I doing this thing?

00:16:02   Am I using trim enabler?

00:16:04   And am I disabling kernel extension signing in Yosemite

00:16:09   or checking for kernel extension signatures in Yosemite?

00:16:11   And the answer is no.

00:16:13   And the reason I'm not doing it,

00:16:15   one is that I don't really like the idea

00:16:18   of bypassing the security feature in Yosemite,

00:16:20   even though it wasn't there in previous ones,

00:16:22   it just like, why would I do that unless I have a reason?

00:16:25   And that leads to the second reason,

00:16:26   which is until and unless I see performance problems

00:16:30   with my SSD and those performance problems are solved

00:16:33   by enabling trim, I'm not going to even consider doing this.

00:16:36   Like in other words, I'm gonna wait until there's a problem.

00:16:40   And if suddenly I feel like,

00:16:41   oh, this SSD used to be really fast,

00:16:42   but now it's getting slow.

00:16:43   And that leads to the final nuance in that SSDs

00:16:47   have on them like basically a little computer

00:16:49   that manages the storage,

00:16:50   it manages like the write leveling

00:16:51   and all sorts of other things

00:16:52   because you can only read and write flash

00:16:54   a certain number of times before it wears out.

00:16:55   And SSDs are over provisioned depending on

00:16:58   If they're like an enterprise SSD or consumer SSD,

00:17:00   they give you more storage than you think you have

00:17:02   because where leveling will use up sections.

00:17:04   And anyway, there's a complicated little computer in there

00:17:07   managing the chips.

00:17:08   And the complexity of what's going on inside an SSD

00:17:11   is increasingly divorced from the view of that SSD

00:17:15   from the operating system as just a simple box of bits

00:17:17   that you can address.

00:17:18   And so the assumptions about trim,

00:17:21   that you have to tell the thing to trim

00:17:23   because otherwise it's gonna be inefficient or whatever.

00:17:26   It's not that the SSD knows where the deleted files are,

00:17:28   but it's more like what's going on inside that SSD.

00:17:32   It's like the operating system can't know better

00:17:34   than the SSD when and how it needs to do its work.

00:17:37   Because in the grand scheme of things,

00:17:40   you're gonna have to erase the blocks

00:17:42   that belong to that five gigabyte pod

00:17:43   before you write to them anyway.

00:17:44   And maybe it's better to do it soon rather than later,

00:17:47   like send a trim command and tell the SSD to get rid of it

00:17:51   during like an idle period or whatever,

00:17:52   but the operating system can just send that as a suggestion.

00:17:55   for all it knows, the SSD reads the trim command

00:17:58   and files it away in a queue somewhere

00:17:59   and doesn't do it for a long time.

00:18:01   Or maybe it doesn't do it ever

00:18:02   because actually it turns out there was another IO operation

00:18:04   that addresses the same thing

00:18:05   and then validates the trim and whatever.

00:18:06   So I don't know the intricate details

00:18:09   that are what's going on inside SSDs these days,

00:18:11   but I do know that the storage management in SSDs

00:18:13   has been changing a lot.

00:18:14   So I'm not entirely sure whether trim is as necessary

00:18:19   as it used to be.

00:18:20   I think it probably still is useful

00:18:22   and most benchmarks bear out that if you don't enable trim,

00:18:24   you have serious problems,

00:18:25   especially when storage gets tight.

00:18:27   But anyway, what I'm doing is leaving Yosemite's

00:18:30   kernel extension signature checking the way it is.

00:18:34   And if I find that my SSD is getting slow,

00:18:36   I will follow the instructions,

00:18:38   which we will put in the show notes,

00:18:39   the very scary process of disabling

00:18:42   kernel extension signature checking and using trim enabler.

00:18:46   - So I've had on my work MacBook Pro,

00:18:50   I've had a third party SSD since I received the machine

00:18:53   in June of 2012, is that right?

00:18:58   Yes, June of 2012.

00:19:01   I did not knowingly do anything to enable

00:19:05   or disable trim support and the thing still screams.

00:19:09   - Yeah, it's way faster than a spinning disk, right?

00:19:11   Marco, have you ever enabled trim

00:19:13   on any of your various third-party SSDs?

00:19:16   - No, I always have just forgotten to do that.

00:19:18   I mean, one thing I always,

00:19:20   I mean this is now almost ancient history,

00:19:23   but when SSDs were first getting to consume our stuff

00:19:26   and they were getting popular,

00:19:28   the SandForce controllers came out and became a big splash

00:19:31   because, this was actually I think before Trim existed

00:19:36   as a command that you could send.

00:19:37   Basically, certain SSDs would do things kind of the dumb way

00:19:41   and would have to, they would fill up

00:19:44   and then they would have that,

00:19:45   have whatever it's called, like the write slowdown,

00:19:47   whatever that's, write degradation I think it's called.

00:19:50   - Write amplification where you just wanted

00:19:52   to write one little thing, but it turns out

00:19:54   what you have to do is erase a huge swath,

00:19:55   read a huge swath, modify, and then write a huge swath.

00:19:58   - Right, so it's like after the SSD was filled up once,

00:20:00   as you described earlier, like after it was ever filled up,

00:20:02   then all writes over time would then be slower

00:20:05   than that initial batch.

00:20:06   Anyway, so SandForce was a controller company.

00:20:10   They made those little computers on the SSDs

00:20:12   to figure out where to put things and how to write things.

00:20:14   And they figured out various techniques and optimizations

00:20:18   to basically avoid that problem and minimize that problem

00:20:21   without trim support,

00:20:22   just by like how they would spread the rights around

00:20:24   and how they would buffer them and things like that.

00:20:26   Various tricks, I don't know all the details.

00:20:29   So I would always just buy Sandforce controller SSDs

00:20:33   because I knew, first trim didn't even exist

00:20:36   and then when it was added,

00:20:39   Max didn't support it at all first.

00:20:41   And then when Apple did finally add support for it

00:20:44   in the OS, it would only work on these whitelists to disks,

00:20:46   which I didn't have any of them.

00:20:49   So for all of my third-party SSDs,

00:20:51   I just, I bought SSDs that didn't really need trim support

00:20:55   and just never bothered trying to hack my way

00:20:57   into enabling it.

00:20:58   - All right, why don't you tell us about something

00:21:00   that's pretty cool, though?

00:21:01   - Gladly.

00:21:02   We are sponsored this week, can you guess?

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00:22:05   We wanted to hack a couple of little things,

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00:23:51   A better web starts with your website.

00:23:53   - Mr. Syracuse, could you tell us about the source list

00:23:58   and opacity in Yosemite, please?

00:24:00   This is old feedback from when we were complaining

00:24:02   about Yosemite's transparency stuff

00:24:05   and the sidebars and all that.

00:24:06   This is from Robert Cooper and he was sending a note,

00:24:09   maybe we even talked about this before, I don't know,

00:24:11   that you can choose for the source list to be opaque,

00:24:14   you know, programmatically if you're writing an application.

00:24:16   Did we talk about this already?

00:24:17   Sounds familiar.

00:24:18   - I don't think we did.

00:24:20   - Anyway, we're talking about it again.

00:24:21   I think he's a developer for Skype

00:24:23   because he says in one of his tweets,

00:24:24   "We've chosen to do that in Skype 7."

00:24:27   I haven't upgraded Skype 7, so I haven't seen it yet,

00:24:29   But what I think they're saying is that they chose to make the sidebar opaque in Skype 7

00:24:33   This I mean that you can programmatically do it. Yeah, of course. I mean you programmatically do anything right here

00:24:38   You know, you don't even have to use Apple sourceless

00:24:40   You could fake it if you wanted to but it's nice to see the easy option

00:24:43   But the important thing about the transparency in Yosemite is what the defaults are for

00:24:48   Applications that were compiled and built before Yosemite even shipped they can end up with like, you know, like Outlook 2011

00:24:55   they can ship with

00:24:58   They'll have translucent sidebars. They had no idea that we're ever gonna have a translucent sidebar that here

00:25:02   They are running on Yosemite with a transits a sidebar that they never planned on having

00:25:05   And those defaults show how dedicated Apple is

00:25:08   It's not like hey, we're gonna have this new feature

00:25:09   And if you want to use it just you know

00:25:11   Flip this little bit in this API when you make this call and you'll get a translucent sidebar

00:25:15   No, they opted everybody into it

00:25:17   Which is a bold move and you know

00:25:21   I don't particularly like it because I think the apps that never meant to have transparency the sidebars will look all weird

00:25:26   And even the ones that want to have it sometimes don't look great, but we've talked about that before

00:25:31   I've talked about it at length on this podcast and the talk show so reference those episodes you won't hear more whining about transparency in

00:25:38   Yosemite

00:25:39   Excellent. Do we want to finally clear out this GameCube controller follow-up that's been in our show notes for an eternity

00:25:47   Sure. This is from someone named rich

00:25:50   Long ago I was discussing the GameCube controller and the adapter that lets you use a GameCube controller with the Wii U

00:25:57   The adapter is so you can play Smash Brothers

00:25:59   And I was excited that the adapter would also let you play any other game that used the the pro controller for the Wii U

00:26:05   But that was not the case and I was sad about it

00:26:07   and I was mentioning this because I thought it was

00:26:09   pretty damning evidence against the pro controller the Wii U pro controller is the

00:26:14   Traditional looking controller with two analog sticks and buttons and triggers, you know, the typical looking controller

00:26:20   That Nintendo made for the Wii U specifically and yet when Smash Brothers came out

00:26:25   They offered this adapter for the GameCube controller

00:26:28   And I'm saying like if they if if the Wii U Pro controller was really any good

00:26:32   Nintendo would not have felt the need to make an adapter and rich was writing in to

00:26:36   Clarify

00:26:38   or to clarify that the GameCube controller was there just because Smash Brothers

00:26:43   Players are addicted to it and because it's wired instead of wireless if you're not using the wave bird

00:26:48   And I know this but it's worth it's worth pointing out why I still think

00:26:52   It's evidence that the Wii U pro controller has not is not fulfilling its job

00:26:57   Like if Nintendo is going to make a new traditional looking controller

00:27:00   They should make something that is satisfactory

00:27:03   to all but the hardest of hardcore Smash Brothers players and this

00:27:08   You know Apple is not going to make an adapter just for people who compete in Smash Brothers tournaments

00:27:15   It's just not enough of those people in the entire world

00:27:16   This adapter is for the wide range of people who play Smash Brothers and it's basically Nintendo admitting that even if you're not a professional

00:27:23   Smash Brothers player we understand that the pro Wii U pro controller is not is not it is not better than the GameCube controller

00:27:31   So here you go

00:27:31   We're actually gonna make a peripheral and

00:27:33   Advertise it and sell it to regular people and reissue the GameCube controller with a Smash Brothers logo on it again

00:27:38   This is not a product that is only for competitive Smash Brother players

00:27:42   They're gonna sell way more than them than just the people who compete in tournaments obviously for the people who compete in tournaments

00:27:48   Yes, this practice for them. They wanted wired. They need reaction times. They want to use the controller

00:27:52   They've used for a long time so and so forth

00:27:54   But I still feel like if Nintendo had made the Wii U Pro controller so that it was unequivocally

00:28:00   Unassailably better than the GameCube controller and was perceived as such by customers

00:28:06   It would not have felt the need to make a mass-market product like this

00:28:09   so you can use your GameCube controller Smash Brothers again, and I agree with them and I agree with popular opinion that the pro controller is

00:28:17   very well made

00:28:19   but I think the layout and the shape are not as good as the

00:28:22   GameCube controller except of course the d-pad which is X gurgle and everybody hates

00:28:27   But that's why the GameCube controller is not perfect is that the only reason?

00:28:31   That and the triggers are not great and of course the Z button that every hits

00:28:36   But you know the Z if they could that's part of the triggers that the Z button the triggers are passable

00:28:40   You can get by with them the triggers have something to recommend them, but they're not that great

00:28:45   But the main controls that you use in games thumb stick buttons

00:28:49   Like that's what you have your hand on your left thumb is on the thumb stick

00:28:52   Your right thumb is hitting a bunch of buttons

00:28:54   The GameCube controller is the current peak of controller design from Nintendo is traditional controller design as far as I'm concerned

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00:30:51   Really enjoyed the Harry stuff.

00:30:53   Apparently there's a month of Movember.

00:30:56   - Yeah, so I did it the last couple of years

00:30:58   and I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do it this year

00:31:01   because my life is so out of control at the moment, but--

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00:32:04   All right.

00:32:07   So we are actually into main topics only 30, 35 minutes into the show.

00:32:12   This might be a record for us for the last couple months.

00:32:14   I'm very proud of us.

00:32:15   Well, let's talk about this Microsoft band of which I have not had time to read anything

00:32:19   about outside of listening to underscore David Smith's podcast about it or a podcast episode

00:32:25   about it, which we will put in the show notes. So one of you guys tell me what this is about.

00:32:32   Not everyone at once.

00:32:33   You haven't seen it, Marco?

00:32:34   Uh, no, I haven't actually. I only saw people talking about it, but I don't know anything

00:32:39   about it except that it looks like what appears to be a pretty decent wearable for an ecosystem

00:32:43   that nobody's going to use.

00:32:45   I've seen it and played with it for a couple of minutes. And so I can't really talk about

00:32:48   usage of it, although Underscore had a good post about his usage of it, like why he bought

00:32:53   one and what he thinks of it, and we'll link that up in the show notes if you want to get

00:32:55   sort of a hands-on experience of using it.

00:32:57   I've just sort of played with it and I was looking at it from a hardware perspective,

00:33:00   and there's this great sort of exploded view diagram at Microsoft.com/Microsoft-band if

00:33:09   you scroll to the very bottom of the page, this little animation that shows how it's

00:33:12   constructed.

00:33:13   And it's an interesting take on how to get all the hardware they want into a band-type

00:33:20   shape.

00:33:21   So this thing is aiming for...

00:33:23   It's kind of weird.

00:33:24   It's not going to be like a full-fledged little computer on your wrist to the same degree

00:33:29   as an Apple Watch is, in that they don't expect you to do much on the screen, much interacting

00:33:36   in 2D.

00:33:37   Like, the screen is very long and thin, so it's kind of a one-dimensional device where

00:33:40   you're swiping white right and left but there's not a lot of up and down there's

00:33:44   not even a lot of like hitting the top button or the bottom button there's a

00:33:47   lot of like little sidebars and swiping to the sides and showing a little half

00:33:51   of half of a little letter poking off the other side of the screen so you know

00:33:55   there's more over there so you know which direction you know typical Windows

00:33:57   Phone style metro UI type thing so in that respect it's not like the Apple

00:34:03   Watch where you've got this 2d thing and you could have different sets of buttons

00:34:07   and a dial and all those other things like that.

00:34:09   But unlike the Apple Watch, for example,

00:34:11   this does have a GPS built in,

00:34:13   so you can go for a jog with it

00:34:15   without having your phone with you to do the GPS part

00:34:17   of like tracking what your route was and everything.

00:34:20   - That is so smart.

00:34:21   - Yeah, especially since like, you know,

00:34:22   who's gonna have a Windows phone to join it up with.

00:34:25   It does have all the sensors

00:34:26   or a lot of the same sensors as the band,

00:34:28   but it does an interesting thing

00:34:30   where instead of the sensors for like your pulse

00:34:32   and everything like that,

00:34:33   being underneath the sort of chunky top part of the watch,

00:34:36   They've split that stuff up so the sensors are sort of like

00:34:39   inside your wrist, like where you'd take your pulse

00:34:41   and the screen is on the outside of your wrist

00:34:43   where you'd look at your watch,

00:34:44   which is an interesting way to keep it thin on top

00:34:47   because they don't have to have the sensors there.

00:34:49   But that means that the bottom of the watch,

00:34:50   sort of the part where it clasps together has a lump.

00:34:53   There's a lump at the bottom of the strap basically

00:34:55   and that's where the sensors are.

00:34:56   And then to find a place to smuggle,

00:34:58   I think, I can't tell from the exploded diagram,

00:35:00   but I assume this is where they're smuggling the batteries.

00:35:02   They put the batteries in the sides of the band.

00:35:04   They have little stiff regions on the sides of the band, left and right side of the band,

00:35:08   that are curved plastic that doesn't bend, and inside there I'm assuming are little battery

00:35:12   packs or something, because otherwise I don't know where they'd be putting the battery.

00:35:16   What that means is the shape of this watch, the shape of this band, is kind of like a

00:35:21   square.

00:35:22   There's a stiff rigid screen on the top, there's a stiff rigid sensor bundle on the bottom,

00:35:26   and on the left and right side there's these sort of curved but still rigid regions, and

00:35:31   between that there's a little bit of flexing and the clasp that adjusts has like a little

00:35:35   groove, about an inch long groove that you can sort of slide it along in the groove and

00:35:39   whatever point in the groove you want it to you just release the thing and these two little

00:35:42   claws grab underneath the groove.

00:35:44   So there is some size adjustability and I think they offer the actual band in three

00:35:47   sizes because this is not like the Apple Watch where it's like a little computer and then

00:35:52   a flexible band that you can adjust the length of, right?

00:35:56   This computer is essentially all around your wrist.

00:35:58   This is a very, much more like what I was thinking,

00:36:00   although not quite as elegant,

00:36:02   but what I was thinking of in terms of you could take

00:36:04   advantage of the band to let you have more room

00:36:06   to put hardware.

00:36:08   But Apple has made a very different choice here.

00:36:10   And I think the biggest dividing line between these products

00:36:12   is not like, oh, Microsoft band has GPS

00:36:14   or the Microsoft band has to work with all sorts

00:36:17   of other phones because it can't just work

00:36:18   with Windows phone because that's like Marco said,

00:36:20   an ecosystem that's no one is into.

00:36:22   I think the big difference is that Microsoft band

00:36:24   is so clearly not going for anything having to do

00:36:26   with fashion.

00:36:27   And Apple Watch is so clearly focused on fashion,

00:36:31   at least half of it's, you know,

00:36:32   the effort of that product is,

00:36:34   of course we're not gonna make it like

00:36:36   all one color and computer we're looking in to have lumps.

00:36:38   We're gonna make something that looks like jewelry,

00:36:40   and we're not gonna put anything in the band

00:36:42   because that's supposed to be decorative.

00:36:43   And in fact, the device should be decorative,

00:36:45   the band should be decorative,

00:36:46   the entire thing has to be decorative

00:36:47   because it's a fashion accessory.

00:36:49   Microsoft band is absolutely not a fashion accessory

00:36:52   in any way.

00:36:53   And in that way,

00:36:54   maybe perhaps it plays more to Microsoft strengths.

00:36:56   I guess they've never been known to be a particularly fashionable brand, but

00:37:00   Anyway, I think it's a really interesting

00:37:03   design and a really interesting choice for Microsoft

00:37:06   And I'm excited by the fact that this wasn't like a demo it like

00:37:09   You know CES or something that never actually ships or doesn't ship for a year

00:37:13   It's a product that no one knew about that they announced and said here it is you can go buy it

00:37:16   So I give this this product and the effort from Microsoft a big thumbs up in the same way that it kind of did for

00:37:22   like the whole Windows Metro thing,

00:37:24   so they're kind of, they're doing their own thing,

00:37:26   they're not trying to copy Apple, they're not being Samsung,

00:37:30   and their own thing is actually pretty cool,

00:37:32   and I hope this has more success in the market, let's say,

00:37:35   than the various devices like Windows Phone

00:37:38   and the OS with the Metro interface.

00:37:40   - If I was into fitness, which is pretty far from the truth,

00:37:45   then I would buy this, I think, no question.

00:37:48   Because I'm not into fitness,

00:37:50   I don't have much of a use for it,

00:37:53   but I kinda like some of the trade-offs they've made.

00:37:56   - Why do you say just because you're not into fitness

00:37:59   that this seems useless to you?

00:38:00   - Well, I'm not gonna use Windows Phone.

00:38:02   - I mean, it does have integration with iOS,

00:38:04   as I was saying, it doesn't like,

00:38:05   Reid underscores the thing about it,

00:38:06   like it's kind of a,

00:38:08   I'm assuming he's not using it with a Windows Phone,

00:38:09   but he's saying like he,

00:38:10   it's like a one-way communication,

00:38:12   it's not two-way because it's not

00:38:14   completely platform integrated,

00:38:16   but he's getting the experience

00:38:17   of being able to be notified on his wrist.

00:38:19   - Oh, it'll show blues with notifications?

00:38:21   - What he compared it to, he divided the fitness bands,

00:38:23   let me just summarize this post here,

00:38:24   it's probably longer than just reading it

00:38:25   all out on the air, but he divided them into like,

00:38:28   the ones that are just always with you

00:38:29   and track information like the Fitbits,

00:38:31   and those necessarily, you know,

00:38:32   they focus on just long battery life,

00:38:35   it's just a sensor attached to you,

00:38:36   but there's not much interaction with it, right?

00:38:38   You're not flaking around a screen.

00:38:39   And then there are the ones that have screens,

00:38:41   but those have been like, I have to be sleepy all the time,

00:38:44   I can't really do anything like the Pebble,

00:38:45   where it's like, wake me up when you wanna use me,

00:38:47   and use me through some limited interface,

00:38:49   because I take a lot of energy to do all this stuff

00:38:51   and then I'll go back to sleep.

00:38:53   So they have an E Ink screen or a very limited screen

00:38:55   or they're not awake a lot of time.

00:38:57   And this is in kind of the same category

00:39:00   as like a combination of the two.

00:39:01   All the fitness sensors are there.

00:39:03   I don't know what the battery life on this thing is

00:39:04   by the way, but all the fitness sensors are there

00:39:06   and it can do the persistence fitness things.

00:39:07   But it's also like this other devices

00:39:09   where you can use it as a little computer.

00:39:10   And I think it does communicate with your iOS device

00:39:12   at least at one direction

00:39:13   to show you notifications and stuff.

00:39:14   And what Underscore said is basically

00:39:16   this convinced him that he will really like the Apple Watch

00:39:18   because the Apple Watch will be two-way communication,

00:39:21   and I guess you won't care that the Apple Watch

00:39:23   doesn't have GPS because that's not, again,

00:39:24   it was not into a fitness type thing.

00:39:27   The Apple Watch will count your steps

00:39:28   if that's all you care about.

00:39:29   If you wanna map your route,

00:39:30   then you don't have to run with your iPhone.

00:39:32   But I totally think the lack of GPS in the Apple Watch

00:39:35   is like three generations away from being a moot point

00:39:38   because they'll add it in as soon as they can afford

00:39:39   to do it with battery power.

00:39:41   - I think that's optimistic, but yeah.

00:39:43   - The reason I'm picking on you, Marco,

00:39:44   is because I think this is basically a pebble,

00:39:47   but better done and with the GPS.

00:39:50   And I don't view it building on what Underscore

00:39:53   and John were just saying,

00:39:54   I don't view it as just a Fitbit with the GPS.

00:39:57   I view it more as a Pebble with the GPS.

00:40:00   And my understanding of what I heard

00:40:02   on Developing Perspective was it uses the same sort of APIs

00:40:06   that for example, that iDrive uses in your car

00:40:10   so that you can read your text messages

00:40:12   on the iDrive screen if you set it up appropriately.

00:40:14   So just like John was saying, it's all one way,

00:40:16   All it's doing is saying, hey, you just got a text message

00:40:19   and here's the text message.

00:40:20   And there's not much you can do to respond to it

00:40:23   on the band, I almost called it a watch.

00:40:26   But nevertheless, at least you can see something there.

00:40:28   - Yeah, maybe I'll give it a try.

00:40:29   Because I am also curious just to see

00:40:33   what is the actual real life utility of such a device.

00:40:36   But that being said, I mean,

00:40:37   we're gonna be getting WatchKit this month, supposedly.

00:40:41   So I think this might just be for iOS developers

00:40:45   and iOS fans, this might just be a temporary distraction

00:40:49   for the next five months until we have a watch from Apple.

00:40:51   - Well, Underscore being his typical super industrious self

00:40:55   is like, he's gotta get this so he knows what the utility is

00:40:58   so he can create his fleet of watch out

00:41:01   and understand how this man possibly,

00:41:02   like there may be more than one of him.

00:41:04   Have you guys checked to see if like--

00:41:05   - I don't know how he does as much as he does.

00:41:07   - Is he always the same guy when you,

00:41:09   because he could be like one of seven identical,

00:41:12   Anyway, he could be a clone, that's what I'm saying.

00:41:14   But this gives him a chance to see

00:41:18   what kind of applications would be good on this device.

00:41:20   And he's sort of using it so that when the Apple Watch

00:41:22   comes along, he will know, he will have a top 10 list

00:41:25   of the applications he's gonna make

00:41:26   while Casey still thinks about getting his FastX for iOS.

00:41:30   - Why are you so mean to me?

00:41:31   - I'm just saying, if you're gonna feel shame

00:41:33   about not updating FastX,

00:41:34   don't feel shame that Overcast beat you out.

00:41:35   Feel shame that during the time

00:41:36   Overcast was being developed,

00:41:38   Underscore probably made seven apps.

00:41:39   (laughing)

00:41:40   - Yeah, he makes everyone else look bad.

00:41:42   - Yup.

00:41:43   Oh man, that's really funny.

00:41:45   And you're right.

00:41:46   I mean, if I had just a pool of money

00:41:48   just sitting there for me to waste away on silly devices,

00:41:52   I would absolutely buy one of these just to try it out.

00:41:56   And it definitely looks, well, I shouldn't say looks cool.

00:41:58   Its feature set seems very neat to me.

00:42:03   Like you were saying, Jon,

00:42:04   it's not aesthetically the most pleasing thing in the world,

00:42:06   but it certainly doesn't look bad either.

00:42:08   And I'm curious to see what comes of it,

00:42:10   but only time will tell.

00:42:13   You know, it's too bad that because it's Microsoft,

00:42:16   everyone just kind of fluffs it off immediately.

00:42:19   Because as a friend of the show, Ben Thompson,

00:42:22   was saying in the chat a minute ago,

00:42:24   you know, this ain't the old Microsoft.

00:42:25   This is kind of a new Microsoft that's really trying.

00:42:28   And John, you were talking about this earlier,

00:42:29   really trying to do something different and unique.

00:42:31   And a lot of times I think they hit the nail

00:42:35   really closer to the head than anyone gives them credit for.

00:42:38   And so it's kind of a bummer to me

00:42:40   that nobody's really given them any credit

00:42:44   from what I can tell.

00:42:45   - Well, that's not really the problem.

00:42:46   The problem isn't credit, the problem is action.

00:42:49   So it's the same thing that happened with WebOS.

00:42:53   Same thing happened with Windows Phone.

00:42:54   - Well, WebOS ran out of money,

00:42:56   that's not Microsoft's problem.

00:42:57   - Well, well, but the reason why,

00:42:59   so the same thing happened where the geeks like us

00:43:02   and maybe the tech press, you know, these things come out

00:43:05   and everyone's like, "Oh, you know what?

00:43:06   "This is really interesting."

00:43:08   Everyone says, "Oh, it's interesting."

00:43:10   This is really progressive,

00:43:11   or some word that means like, "This is cool,

00:43:15   "but then the conclusion is, but I don't want it."

00:43:18   Or, "This is great, I love this,

00:43:21   "but I'm not gonna buy this instead of an iPhone."

00:43:24   And so I think this is gonna have the same kind of problem,

00:43:26   which is, so you have this device from Microsoft

00:43:31   right before this probably big hit device from Apple, right?

00:43:36   So you have this device from Microsoft

00:43:38   that we're all looking at now and saying,

00:43:41   this is really interesting.

00:43:43   This might be really interesting.

00:43:45   They're doing a good job.

00:43:47   But how many people who say this

00:43:50   are gonna be using one of these in a year

00:43:51   instead of an Apple Watch?

00:43:53   - Well, they have the same problem as Apple of old did

00:43:55   where at a certain point it becomes like,

00:43:58   no matter what Apple did, it was always like,

00:44:01   yeah, but that's just Apple.

00:44:03   So like, who cares?

00:44:05   like it's exactly the same thing.

00:44:07   Like it's interesting or whatever, but you know,

00:44:09   come on real computers use Windows.

00:44:10   Like it's a sideshow, you're not interested.

00:44:12   And once you kind of get out of that position,

00:44:14   once people start thinking of you as not,

00:44:18   not part of the mainstream, not part of like the real thing,

00:44:21   then it's really difficult to ever,

00:44:25   to ever jump back up into the previous position

00:44:28   where to get people to like,

00:44:29   say I'm actually going to buy that

00:44:30   because it starts to feel like I'm not gonna buy a Mac.

00:44:33   I'm a PC guy, Macs don't run the programs that I want.

00:44:36   I'm not familiar with how they work.

00:44:37   It's just everything builds on top of everything

00:44:39   and it becomes insurmountable.

00:44:40   And the only way Apple could dig itself out of it

00:44:42   was with these spectacular flashy products.

00:44:45   Initially flashing ways that really weren't that substantial

00:44:48   like using fashion again.

00:44:49   Why do people care about the iMac?

00:44:50   It was just a computer.

00:44:51   Like it was an okay computer.

00:44:52   It wasn't a bad computer,

00:44:53   but the guts of the iMac were not all that impressive.

00:44:57   It was because it was teal and translucent and cool looking.

00:44:59   Like that's why the iMac made it.

00:45:00   And the iPod was them making a product

00:45:03   that had already existed but doing it so much better

00:45:05   than the other ones.

00:45:06   Like, and so is this so much better than the Apple watch?

00:45:08   No, it's not.

00:45:09   So it's not going to do that for them,

00:45:10   but they must feel like,

00:45:12   Microsoft must feel like Apple did where it's like,

00:45:14   we're making good stuff.

00:45:15   Like it's not bad, it's good.

00:45:17   Arguably sometimes it's the best or it's close.

00:45:20   And yet why is our reward not proportional

00:45:22   to the quality of the product we're making?

00:45:24   If we're making something that's like 80%

00:45:25   as good as something, like, and we get no market share,

00:45:28   it just seems like it's not fair.

00:45:31   And so I feel for them, but on the other hand,

00:45:34   I have a little bit of a glee about the fact

00:45:38   that they're in the position that Apple,

00:45:40   I'm trying not to hold a grudge.

00:45:41   Like in some respects I'm rooting for them,

00:45:42   but then when I think about rooting for them,

00:45:44   I'm like, you know what, if they got control,

00:45:47   they would just start making products I don't like again,

00:45:49   and it would make me sad.

00:45:50   - You said like, oh, if we make a product

00:45:52   that's 80% as good, then it should have to market share.

00:45:53   And the problem is like something like this,

00:45:56   I think most people are going to have

00:45:57   one wrist wearable at most.

00:45:59   Most people are only gonna have zero,

00:46:01   but I think that the most somebody will have

00:46:03   is likely to be one.

00:46:05   And so the question is,

00:46:06   not only is this good enough to buy,

00:46:09   but is this good enough to buy instead of the Apple Watch?

00:46:13   And that's the problem.

00:46:14   Most people don't carry two cell phones.

00:46:16   Most people carry ones, at least that they buy themselves,

00:46:19   most people carry one cell phone.

00:46:20   - Most of them are not a PC,

00:46:22   but a PC was like a $2,000 investment,

00:46:24   you didn't replace it every two years.

00:46:26   These type of devices are small enough

00:46:27   and there's enough advancement in the field.

00:46:30   be like for a lot of people would try the iPhone or try Android because you're like

00:46:34   well my two-year contract stuff like this isn't subsidized or anything but it just feels

00:46:37   like it's it's not as big of a commitment but it does get back to what you said earlier

00:46:41   about the ecosystem where you might feel like what am I what am I buying into here do I

00:46:45   have faith that this is going to be a supported product line for the future or is this going

00:46:49   to be like a one-off or you know what was that courier project that they had with like

00:46:53   remember that it was like a tablet that opened up like a book and they canned that before

00:46:56   even got out the door. So it seems like Microsoft may not, maybe kind of a hostile environment to

00:47:02   innovation at this point, or the Kin, what was that other one they made? The uh, yeah,

00:47:05   like the social smartphone platform that they made like two of, it was from the Sidekick guys,

00:47:09   and they released that and then canned it. Like, Microsoft needs to work on their, not so much

00:47:14   execution, because a lot of times the products are like, have something to recommend them,

00:47:17   but just like, the decision about when to release it, when to announce it, and whether this is going

00:47:23   to be a thing you follow through with. And if it's not going to be a thing you follow through with,

00:47:25   Like don't don't release the kin line on the hopes like hey, who knows maybe this will take off

00:47:30   But we probably don't think it will because it's actually kind of a crappy product and we really did a kind of a half-assed launch

00:47:34   And then when it doesn't catch on you're like, you know what a week later

00:47:37   Let's just cam the whole thing or a courier which you show to people people get excited about and then just say well

00:47:42   You know what? Let's just get rid of that

00:47:43   You know like I know a couple people are excited but we don't really like it and don't show it like all the things that

00:47:48   Apple tries out internally and gets rid of we never hear about those. That's what you have to do it

00:47:52   You really they really have to pick what they're going to do

00:47:55   do it really well put the company behind it and

00:47:59   not do these things that either look technically interesting and you're sad that they go away or

00:48:05   Kind of tumble out the door half-heartedly and that are canceled like when was the kin canceled like it was like two months

00:48:11   It was very soon

00:48:13   MTW in chat room says they didn't show courier that it just leaked

00:48:16   Oh, that's also I mean it's part of the same problem whether you show it or whether it leaks like we if we need to not

00:48:21   know about it. We need to not have pictures of it. We need to not, you know, for all of

00:48:24   the various like TV products and tablet products and all the watch prototypes that Apple made,

00:48:30   like we got the first thing we got to see out of Apple that was like a watch type thing

00:48:33   was the watch that they said they were going to make. We didn't, and we haven't seen all

00:48:36   whatever crazy TV stuff that they've tried and not released that we just assume was going

00:48:40   on in there. Apple's much better about deciding which products are good enough to go out the

00:48:46   door and once a product does go out the door, giving it a fair shot and putting the full

00:48:50   way to the company behind it.

00:48:52   And so we'll see if Band gets that from Microsoft.

00:48:55   Really quick aside, does, well, I don't know if either of you guys have seen much of this,

00:48:59   but watching the NFL these days is just a series of face palms because everywhere you

00:49:08   see these bright blue Microsoft Surface tablet-y things.

00:49:12   And it's so obvious that it's like, product placement is one thing and I know it's a thing.

00:49:19   It happens everywhere.

00:49:20   Hell, Apple does it constantly.

00:49:23   But I don't know, maybe I am biased, but it just seems to me that it's done in a much

00:49:27   more subtle way.

00:49:28   Like I'm thinking of house, for example, you would see Macs all over the place, but it

00:49:32   was subtle.

00:49:33   Whereas with the NFL, it's like, here's the bright blue surface and there's a row of bright

00:49:39   blue surfaces on the commentators desks.

00:49:42   And here it is on the sidelines and on the Microsoft surface, they're reviewing the play

00:49:46   right now.

00:49:47   Oh, it's so tacky to me.

00:49:49   - Yeah, similar problem in the most recent season

00:49:51   on Netflix of Parks and Recreation,

00:49:53   where like it was, which is not a very good season actually.

00:49:55   But anyway, they got some kind of big Microsoft sponsorship.

00:49:59   And so in previous seasons,

00:50:00   everybody had iPhones and stuff.

00:50:03   This season, every computing device you see

00:50:06   is a Microsoft device.

00:50:07   So every character is carrying a Windows phone

00:50:09   and using it proudly, like holding it up constantly.

00:50:12   And every computer that you see on the desk

00:50:15   is a Surface or at least running Windows 8

00:50:17   and it's always showing the Windows 8 home screen

00:50:19   prominently and you have all these screens

00:50:23   and Microsoft in your face and it's like,

00:50:25   good product placement should be both

00:50:29   unnoticeable and plausible.

00:50:31   - Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:50:33   - And what you're saying with the NFL,

00:50:34   it's like that also, it violates both these things.

00:50:36   You shouldn't notice that they're beating you

00:50:38   over the head with this one particular type of product.

00:50:41   It should just seem like, oh, I just kinda see people

00:50:43   subconsciously and it seems like everyone's using Apple products or

00:50:46   Microsoft products and the cool people are or something like that's what it's

00:50:49   supposed to do and you're not supposed to notice a wow they're really beating

00:50:54   me over the head with this one kind of product and B this is so unrealistic

00:50:58   because in reality I know for a fact that these things are not good enough or

00:51:03   popular enough that all these people would naturally have them yep and the

00:51:07   chat room is going berserk and we would be I was trying I want to take credit

00:51:11   I didn't for once I didn't get something from the chat room. I saw the story today and it was it was hilarious

00:51:16   This is on CNN and the same type deal

00:51:19   They have some kind of product placement deal with Microsoft services and you can tell it's a surface from the back because it sort of has

00:51:24   That you know iconic kickstand that they have, you know, the back of the surface looks like where little thing folds out

00:51:29   So it looks like a little easel, right?

00:51:31   And so what you see is just series of easels sitting in front of all the different commentators

00:51:36   But when they have camera shots from the side what you can see is a lot of the commentators

00:51:40   Have an iPad that they're sort of using behind the surface as like a shield, you know

00:51:46   So you can't see that they're using the iPad either either the iPad is resting against the surface

00:51:49   Like it actually literally is an easel or they just have an iPad in their hands and that's not good for Microsoft

00:51:54   It's not good at all

00:51:55   It's so bad. I don't know. It's just

00:51:58   Yeah, granted. I make my living off of Microsoft technologies

00:52:02   And so there's there's always going to be a special soft spot in my heart for Microsoft

00:52:07   But so much of what Microsoft does is so cheesy and silly and this is some of it and it makes

00:52:16   me sad.

00:52:17   >> Fashion is not their strong suit.

00:52:19   As Steve Jobs said, taste is not their strong suit.

00:52:22   >> Yep.

00:52:23   Oh well, what else is awesome these days, Marco?

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00:54:38   - So let's talk about iWork 2013.

00:54:41   - Wait, what?

00:54:42   We're talking about this?

00:54:43   - Yeah, well, okay.

00:54:43   What else are we talking about?

00:54:44   - What, did news happen?

00:54:46   - No, I think this is a topic,

00:54:48   I mean, it's not news news,

00:54:49   but it's one of those things that people complain about

00:54:52   and I keep seeing it and the complaints don't go away.

00:54:54   And the more I think about it,

00:54:55   the more it reveals to me something that Apple,

00:54:58   like something that Apple is doing

00:55:00   It just doesn't make sense and coincidentally for the people who are upset about us bashing

00:55:05   Microsoft into something that Microsoft does much better than Apple.

00:55:08   And I don't really understand why Apple is doing what it's doing.

00:55:13   So have you, do either one of you have the new version of iWork?

00:55:17   Yep.

00:55:18   Yep.

00:55:19   I don't think I have it on the Mac.

00:55:20   I think I probably have it on iOS.

00:55:21   Isn't it like free on iOS or it comes free with your devices or something like that?

00:55:24   I think it's free everywhere now.

00:55:25   Yeah.

00:55:26   It's not about the specific programs which have their problems, right?

00:55:31   And the file formats are weird, but it's about how they're handling backward compatibility.

00:55:36   And I grabbed this quote from an InfoWorld article, I'm assuming it's reasonably accurate,

00:55:40   but if it's not, the gist of it is right, if not the details.

00:55:44   And so the details as listed here is basically if you get the new version of iWork, you can't

00:55:48   open files created with any version of iWork earlier than iWork 09.

00:55:53   If you try to do that, iWork detects that you're trying to open a document from something

00:55:58   earlier than iWork 09 and says, "Oh, you should find a copy of iWork 09 and open the file

00:56:03   with that instead."

00:56:05   And so this is sort of leaving behind your own file format from not that long ago, like

00:56:11   less than a decade certainly, probably less than five years ago, whatever it is, those

00:56:17   documents can't be opened by the new version.

00:56:21   And a lot of the time when Apple sort of races forward, leaving behind legacy things, whether

00:56:25   it's ditching everything except for USB on the original iMac or dropping support for

00:56:31   an API or some hardware thing or whatever, there's a reason.

00:56:36   It helps them to make...

00:56:39   It helps them get ahead of their competition, because they're not encumbered by legacy stuff,

00:56:43   and so they can go and make the new shiny thing without worrying about dragging along

00:56:47   this baggage of backward compatibility because the baggage just gets bigger and bigger, especially

00:56:53   if you have a successful product in your past. Eventually all your time is spent trying to

00:56:56   like support the past instead of worrying about the future so you can never make anything

00:57:00   great. But I don't see how that philosophy can be or should be applied to file formats

00:57:06   because it's not as if we're asking that these old file formats be supported forever in their

00:57:11   current form. All I think most reasonable people are asking is if I create a bunch of

00:57:15   of documents with iWork over the years,

00:57:17   and I get the latest version of iWork,

00:57:19   I just wanna be able to open them.

00:57:21   And I don't care that much that if I open them,

00:57:22   it converts them to the new format.

00:57:24   As long as if it does the conversion, it's not lossy,

00:57:27   like this looked fine in the old version of iWork,

00:57:29   but when I converted it to the new version,

00:57:30   all my fonts were screwed up

00:57:31   and everything looked broken or whatever.

00:57:34   You just, for file format compatibility,

00:57:37   making new file formats, for example,

00:57:39   one of the reasons that speculated

00:57:40   they made these new file formats

00:57:41   that are like zip archives and stuff,

00:57:43   is for better compatibility with iOS

00:57:45   because they want it to unify the code base,

00:57:47   it's fine, that's a perfectly valid reason

00:57:48   to change your file format and to rev the program.

00:57:50   And maybe you can argue if it's a good reason

00:57:53   to dumb down the feature set

00:57:54   to a common set of functionality

00:57:55   that can work on iOS on the web and on the Mac.

00:57:58   But anyway, whatever, they're gonna do that, that's fine.

00:58:01   But by not reading the old file formats,

00:58:03   it shows a lack of respect for the work

00:58:06   that people have done with previous versions

00:58:07   of this program, especially since probably

00:58:09   the pre-iWork 09 versions are gonna stop working

00:58:11   on modern Macs pretty soon,

00:58:12   that's the thing that Apple does which I think that does have a reason but you

00:58:15   have to support the old file formats because if you don't what you're

00:58:18   signaling to people and Apple signals this to people in iARC and also in

00:58:23   pretty much everything that's ever done on the web do not trust us with your

00:58:27   data make a bunch of picture galleries in like you know .Mac oh well those are

00:58:32   gonna be gone when we switch over to the mobile me galleries make a bunch of

00:58:35   mobile me websites with iWeb oh iWeb is not supported anymore I hope you didn't

00:58:39   Hope you didn't write too much in your little blog that you made

00:58:41   We're converting over to this thing

00:58:43   And by the way, there's no way to get that content back out and make a bunch of documents with iwork

00:58:47   Well five years are gonna pass and you can't open them up

00:58:49   I hope you save a version of iwork or a nine which by the way won't run on the computer that you buy three years

00:58:53   from now

00:58:54   It's telling everybody do not trust Apple with your data because we will abandon it. We will race ahead

00:59:00   We will leave behind like I feel so bad for people who like we put a lot of work into iwork websites

00:59:05   It that tool what it did was basically give you a native Mac

00:59:09   Application at lake let people who know nothing about the web make web pages and it put them up on little hosting that was part

00:59:14   Of your service that you bought it was not a very good program

00:59:16   the results were not very nice with the bottom line is people dragged in little pictures and type lots of words and

00:59:21   Made a series of posts and Apple is just like well, sorry, that's going away

00:59:25   Hope you have some way to pull that down and back it up or something

00:59:27   I remember that year that I was going around to people in my family and and

00:59:32   trying to find a way to like pull down the file and and modify the links so they still work locally so they can just

00:59:37   Have a local copy because people invested time in that and Apple has no respect for the time that people spent on that and with file

00:59:43   Formats Apple has no respect for the work that people put in making word processing documents

00:59:46   so the lesson they're teaching everybody is

00:59:48   Don't use our programs or our web services if you care about

00:59:52   Being able to open this thing or view this thing in five or ten years

00:59:55   and I

00:59:57   Think Apple's probably with I work and what is done with the web properties?

01:00:01   Probably the worst of the big companies like, you know

01:00:05   Apple Microsoft Amazon or whatever in breaking compatibility with no way forward with no sort of like

01:00:10   Import or export option or anything like that?

01:00:12   I don't know. I'm angry about it. I don't even use I work and by the way, I don't work for

01:00:17   For this and many other reasons. I mean part of the problem, you know, you're definitely right. I agree with everything you just said

01:00:25   Part of the problem is is bigger than than just this was a bad decision in I work

01:00:29   I mean part of that one of the biggest parts of the problem is that I work doesn't get a lot of attention from Apple

01:00:34   There's a reason like there was literally no new update from

01:00:38   2009 until 2013 and the 2013 versions were not written during that whole time

01:00:45   They were written like at the last minute and rushed out the door

01:00:48   It seems like they spend a lot of time trying to do the sync up between there's an iOS version

01:00:53   There's a web version as the Mac version and try to make them all work on the same thing and all work together

01:00:57   Like that seems like what they put the effort in. It's probably not you're right a multi-year effort like that

01:01:01   But who knows? I don't know what their schedules are like internally, but

01:01:04   The result was a program that didn't satisfy people because that that synchronization between all the platforms

01:01:10   Sort of dumbed down the applications to the common subset of functionality that will work across all of them and people are angry about that

01:01:16   and the execution wasn't great, but

01:01:20   Yeah, go on. I just I don't I don't think it's because they didn't put enough effort into it because it seems like they did

01:01:26   Put a lot of resources into it. They just they just put them towards the wrong things

01:01:29   Well, I mean the I work file formats have always been kind of a disaster

01:01:33   So like the first versions of I work before oh nine

01:01:35   They saved everything as a as a Mac bundle which for those of you who don't know a bundle or a package whatever

01:01:43   It's called a package is just a directory with this

01:01:45   How is it like a special flag set to make it into a package? How does that work?

01:01:49   Now the Finder is the thing that interprets the bundle that is set now. That's classic my quest

01:01:55   I believe it's the Finder that interprets them as something other than a directory because if you look at them anyplace else other than

01:02:01   The Finder it looks like exactly what it is a directory with a bunch of files in it, right?

01:02:05   So the first versions of I work their file format was these

01:02:09   These fake files which are actually directories full of other files and that causes a lot of problems whenever that file has to leave the Mac

01:02:18   Biggest thing is email attachments.

01:02:21   Secondarily, you also can't put them in upload forms

01:02:25   on websites, in the file input type,

01:02:28   because those expect single files

01:02:29   and these are actually directories.

01:02:31   And you can imagine that was pretty annoying

01:02:33   when you couldn't really email these things around

01:02:36   very easily through most email servers or email programs,

01:02:38   and certainly not through Windows at all,

01:02:41   if it had to bounce through Windows.

01:02:42   You couldn't email these files around

01:02:43   from this Office suite of applications.

01:02:46   that was a pretty stupid move really.

01:02:48   And so then in the later version,

01:02:51   I think in the '09 version, they moved to,

01:02:54   I believe it was just like a zip file.

01:02:57   It was basically like, it was either an SQL file

01:02:59   or a zip file that was just all that data shoved

01:03:02   into this container, which is a much better way to do it.

01:03:04   And then with the new versions, I think they,

01:03:06   didn't they move back?

01:03:08   I think with the new versions, there were some kind of,

01:03:11   we'll have to look this up and write this up and link to it.

01:03:13   There were some kind of move,

01:03:15   It was a move, like a step backwards

01:03:18   because the justification was this is gonna be easier

01:03:22   to sync between iOS and iCloud documents

01:03:24   and Mac and everything because of the structure

01:03:27   they've picked.

01:03:27   Regardless, the file formats have always kind of been

01:03:31   a disaster, they've always changed dramatically

01:03:34   and many times have had very weird decisions

01:03:36   and again, it just seems like,

01:03:40   it seems like they just, the iWork team

01:03:42   is not getting the resources it needs

01:03:44   or it is not a high enough priority

01:03:47   for iWork to ever be truly great.

01:03:49   And I use iWork, I don't use Microsoft Office

01:03:51   because I hardly ever need Office programs,

01:03:53   so it's not worth me buying Office.

01:03:55   I just use iWork stuff and get away with it just fine.

01:03:58   And I've used iWork as my only Office suite for,

01:04:02   I don't know, at least six or seven years now.

01:04:04   So it's, I use this not every day,

01:04:09   but I use it regularly,

01:04:10   and I know these programs pretty well now.

01:04:13   And they're always like 75% of the way there.

01:04:18   They could be so good, but it just seems like

01:04:22   they don't get attention from Apple.

01:04:24   And I think what you're saying is true.

01:04:26   It's very fair what you're saying,

01:04:28   especially about things like the MobileMe photo galleries

01:04:31   and stuff like that, like all the photo stuff,

01:04:33   that is very valid.

01:04:35   I think with iWork, I think it's mostly just an issue

01:04:41   of these apps getting NOLA from Apple.

01:04:43   And secondarily them not caring about drop-in compatibility.

01:04:47   But it wouldn't surprise me at all

01:04:49   if they were going to write in support

01:04:51   for the new apps to rebuild formats

01:04:54   and it just got cut because they didn't have enough time

01:04:56   because they didn't give this project

01:04:57   enough resources from the beginning.

01:04:59   - Oh, they have that thing where they put out a version

01:05:01   that dropped a huge number of features

01:05:03   and then kind of backfilled apologetically as time allowed.

01:05:06   - Right, yeah, that's the 2013 version,

01:05:09   which is still, I think, worse than the previous ones.

01:05:13   - And like, I don't use a lot of these things regularly,

01:05:14   but I follow people who do.

01:05:15   And it's like, even Keynote,

01:05:17   which used to be like the one,

01:05:18   the best program in that suite is like,

01:05:20   everyone loves Keynote,

01:05:21   is like been getting worse over time, not better.

01:05:23   And that's something that Microsoft has always done so well.

01:05:25   One, support backwards compatibility support

01:05:28   for their file formats, like forever, basically.

01:05:31   Like they are the masters of that.

01:05:32   And you don't have to go to that extreme,

01:05:33   but you should be good at it at least.

01:05:35   And it's not like Microsoft didn't change their formats.

01:05:37   They went to, you know, a zip file full of XML stuff.

01:05:40   And, you know, they Docx and XLSX and all that stuff.

01:05:43   Like they advanced, but when they advanced,

01:05:47   they tried to be compatible

01:05:49   because like that's their big selling point.

01:05:50   If you make documents in Microsoft Office,

01:05:52   Microsoft Office will up to them.

01:05:53   I remember when like Office 97 came out

01:05:55   and like there was a split in format between 97 and 95

01:05:58   and people were freaking out or whatever.

01:05:59   I don't remember the exact details of the year.

01:06:01   So I'm sorry if I got it wrong, but that, you know,

01:06:05   They condition their user base to accept

01:06:08   that the format will change and feel safe

01:06:10   that it's not like the documents

01:06:12   are gonna become unreadable.

01:06:13   And Apple is doing the opposite.

01:06:15   They're conditioning all the users to fear these applications

01:06:18   and not trust any important data to it.

01:06:20   And the other thing Microsoft has done

01:06:22   with a few bumps in the road, like, you know,

01:06:24   Word 6 for the Mac and all that terrible stuff,

01:06:26   they tend to make their programs better with time.

01:06:30   The programs get faster, documents open faster.

01:06:32   They have more features.

01:06:33   They wouldn't like, if one version of a program

01:06:35   had really interesting typography controls,

01:06:39   the next version of the program

01:06:40   would not drop all those features

01:06:41   because like they're not possible in iOS

01:06:43   or can't be done on the web or something.

01:06:44   Like they would never do that.

01:06:45   There's no major regression in functionality

01:06:49   without some good reason.

01:06:50   Like, oh, we're deprecating the access database.

01:06:52   So forget about that whole integration.

01:06:54   Like, you know, but just like,

01:06:56   hey, this thing adds a new ability

01:06:59   to tweak the kerning on text.

01:07:02   And the next version says,

01:07:02   yeah, you know all that kerning stuff, forget it.

01:07:04   We pulled it out, it's gone.

01:07:05   And if you open a document that had a custom kerning,

01:07:07   we're just gonna show it a different way.

01:07:09   Like that's not progress.

01:07:10   It's over time, the reason we all love software

01:07:13   is it gets better, faster, stronger.

01:07:15   You know, it does not sort of stumble along.

01:07:19   Occasionally features that you used

01:07:20   and relied on disappear with no explanation.

01:07:23   File formats get abandoned.

01:07:24   The application changes its looks

01:07:27   in ways that seem like lateral moves.

01:07:29   Items move around the interface for no discernible reason.

01:07:33   that is a web version you don't care about.

01:07:35   Are there any like rabid iWork fans

01:07:37   with the possible exception of Keynote,

01:07:39   which I think did have rabid fans and may still have them?

01:07:41   The rest of iWork is just like, meh.

01:07:43   - You know, what's funny is,

01:07:47   especially listening to what Markowitz said

01:07:49   about how iWork is 80% of the way there,

01:07:52   I feel like so many of the things you just said about iWork,

01:07:55   you could make a reasonable substitution of say iCloud

01:08:00   or any number of other Apple software products.

01:08:04   Heck, even iOS 8, a lot of people,

01:08:06   I mean, I think iOS 8 is fine, but.

01:08:09   - No, I think it's not fair for iOS 8 and iCloud.

01:08:11   iOS 8 is not worse than iOS 7,

01:08:16   and it adds a bunch of things that you felt like

01:08:20   you would be happy if you had them.

01:08:21   Like iOS 7 didn't have extensions, which is a big thing.

01:08:23   - Sure, sure, no, no, I'm on a different point.

01:08:26   My point was when Marco was saying,

01:08:28   Oh, it's so close, but it's not quite there.

01:08:31   And iCloud has gotten better,

01:08:32   but it seems like you could say that about a lot of things.

01:08:36   Like so great example is in iOS 8,

01:08:38   the ordering of the extensions and the share sheets,

01:08:42   or I think that's what it is,

01:08:43   wherever the one password icon lives,

01:08:45   how you could at least put one,

01:08:47   you could have a one password extension,

01:08:49   yet when you tried to reorder

01:08:51   what the order of those extensions were,

01:08:54   the order got reset constantly.

01:08:57   Now I believe that's been fixed in the latest beta,

01:08:59   but that's a great example of, oh, you were so close,

01:09:02   but then there's this one really annoying thing

01:09:04   that you didn't quite get right.

01:09:05   - I think that's much closer than iWork.

01:09:07   Even iCloud, which has had it stumbled,

01:09:09   on the long term, you have to say,

01:09:12   iCloud Drive versus basically everything else

01:09:14   they've ever done with documents.

01:09:15   iCloud Drive is better than that.

01:09:16   CloudKit versus everything else they've done

01:09:18   in the same realm, CloudKit is better.

01:09:20   Maybe it's not there,

01:09:21   but you just wanna see forward progress.

01:09:23   When you have a long running program like iWork

01:09:25   or long-running suite like iWork,

01:09:27   that is around for a long time,

01:09:30   is not updated on sort of on a regular basis,

01:09:33   such that you just often wonder like, is the product dead?

01:09:36   Are they just not gonna do it anymore?

01:09:37   Like iLife was the same way,

01:09:38   where they were doing iLife with years in the name,

01:09:40   and then all of a sudden a year would come and go

01:09:41   and there'd be no new iLife,

01:09:43   and you're like, so is iLife still a thing?

01:09:46   And then they release a point update

01:09:47   to keep the old version working.

01:09:48   You're like, well, there's someone,

01:09:49   it's gotta be someone over there working on it

01:09:50   because they're doing some work

01:09:52   to make sure it works with the new OS,

01:09:53   like versus Microsoft Office back in its heyday especially,

01:09:57   was like regular updates,

01:09:58   you know they're gonna keep trying to make it better,

01:10:00   maybe you'll disagree with something they've done

01:10:03   or some weird interface

01:10:04   or they implemented new crazy menus in Office

01:10:07   because Microsoft has organized like a crazy,

01:10:12   I don't know what the right word is, Tower of Babel

01:10:13   and one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.

01:10:16   But anyway, they always look like they were developing it

01:10:19   and so many things with Apple

01:10:21   are sort of like speculative abandonware,

01:10:24   just like Marco was doing.

01:10:25   (laughing)

01:10:26   Is anyone working on this?

01:10:28   Probably, like I guess, but maybe not.

01:10:33   And I mean, the Mac Pro is speculative abandonware hardware

01:10:37   for the longest time, but in software,

01:10:38   there seems like a lot of that.

01:10:39   And it has to be said at some point that like,

01:10:42   maybe it has something to do with the fact

01:10:44   that Apple feels like it shouldn't or can't

01:10:48   sell the software anymore, that everything has to be free,

01:10:50   that even the stuff that used to be $400 has to be $79 now.

01:10:54   You know, like if iWork could be priced at something

01:10:58   other than, you guys were saying it's free,

01:11:00   I haven't even looked at it,

01:11:01   but like priced at some price that is closer to sustainable,

01:11:06   maybe it wouldn't really fund all this development,

01:11:08   but just something.

01:11:09   But if they feel like they just have to give it away

01:11:10   for free as a perk to try to make their hardware

01:11:12   more valuable, I don't see how a bunch of mediocre,

01:11:15   mediocre to crappy programs

01:11:17   make their hardware more valuable.

01:11:19   You know what I mean?

01:11:20   You're not adding value. No one is going oh, and if you get an iOS it used to be like remember

01:11:24   How you used to be like that with I life it was like if you want to get I life you have to get

01:11:27   A Mac that was practically a system seller to use game console parlance, right?

01:11:31   Oh, yeah, people would play with GarageBand in the store and be like, oh my god

01:11:34   If I got a Mac I could make music right design. Do they have I like for Windows?

01:11:38   No, you have to have a Mac like it was a system seller

01:11:40   It was like all these things that you know

01:11:42   I know I have a computer and people tell me I can use it to make movies to make music to burn CDs

01:11:47   But I know I personally can't use it to do those things because it's way too complicated

01:11:50   I wouldn't know where to begin and I life was like hey

01:11:52   We will make you successful at doing these things that you know are possible with a computer

01:11:57   But you still feel are beyond your ability and I work is not a system seller

01:12:00   Nobody is buying Macs or iPads or doing anything involving Apple to say oh no goody now. I get to use I work

01:12:07   I can never do word processing before

01:12:09   It's not it's not a system seller

01:12:12   Yeah, and I think you're I mean, I don't think it's a pricing issue at all

01:12:16   I don't think they ever sold high enough volumes of iWork to make the price of it matter much to their bottom line at all

01:12:22   But it is very important to push the usefulness of their platforms

01:12:28   And you know not only from like an independence perspective like it's an insurance policy

01:12:33   against Microsoft ever stopping making Office for Macs first of all and it's also to serve

01:12:39   their iOS interest to say

01:12:42   Look at how useful, especially the iPad,

01:12:45   which really needs some help right now,

01:12:46   look at how useful the iPad can be for work.

01:12:49   And IBM can go and sell it for them,

01:12:51   they can sell and they can say,

01:12:52   "Look, it runs all these Office apps."

01:12:54   'Cause if Microsoft Office, well, for a while,

01:12:56   Microsoft Office didn't exist on the iPad,

01:12:59   now it does, but who knows if it always will

01:13:02   and how good it will always be,

01:13:03   now Apple can go around and say,

01:13:05   "Look, you can get for this one low price of this iPad

01:13:11   that might be three years old, A5,

01:13:13   for this one price you can get this iPad

01:13:16   and all this free software on it that's awesome

01:13:19   and you should really buy this iPad because of it

01:13:21   and you'll be able to get all this work done.

01:13:23   And the problem is that, so that's like,

01:13:26   again, the strategy tax, that's, well not really,

01:13:28   that's their goal is to make their hardware sell more units

01:13:32   'cause that's where they make most of their money

01:13:33   but if the software is mediocre or absent,

01:13:38   it makes it very hard to do that.

01:13:40   The weird thing is that with iOS 8 now

01:13:42   They've essentially given Microsoft all the tools needed to do the thing that previously would say well only Apple does like only apples are gonna

01:13:50   Ever bother to make it an office type suite of programs that work on the web on iOS on the Mac with the same file

01:13:56   Format all sharing between all synchronized, but now with the advent of iCloud Drive Yosemite iOS 8

01:14:01   Extensions to like Microsoft. There's no reason Microsoft can't

01:14:05   unify its office suite across all of its platforms using one drive or whatever their services and having that integrated into iOS and having that

01:14:12   available on Macs and you know like

01:14:14   Not only Apple can do this now and I wonder if Apple would be like relieved if someone else picked up the mantle of

01:14:21   because that's what Apple wants to sell is like

01:14:23   We have a way for you to do word processing and it doesn't matter where you do it

01:14:27   If you do it on your Mac, if you do it on a website if you do it on your iOS device

01:14:31   It's all the same documents. It's all the same program

01:14:33   It you know it looks and works kind of roughly the same everywhere with a native interface and each one of those things

01:14:39   with a feature set that's the same across all of them so on and so forth like that's what they're selling but

01:14:44   If you do it with a bunch of mediocre applications these the sort of unification they're going for like I don't think that is

01:14:52   As attractive if they say oh well especially what you know an establishment like we're like I know how to do that in Word

01:14:58   I know how to make pivot tables in Excel. I don't know anything about numbers

01:15:01   I don't know what this pages thing is and it's weird and it's kind of buggy and I use the old version now

01:15:06   I can't open those documents anymore and you know, like that's why office is still popular because

01:15:10   Microsoft for all its weirdness and all its troubles

01:15:13   Still has held to the contract of office like as a standard, you know

01:15:17   That like if you make your documents in this you'll be able to open them. We'll do a good job with compatibility

01:15:22   We'll try to make them look the same

01:15:24   I mean again, there's been stumbles with that too with like if you open it on the windows version of office

01:15:29   looks different than on the Mac version, this font differences, there's that whole thing

01:15:32   about the Mac's epoch being, what is it, January 1904 or something like that, which is different

01:15:37   than the Windows epoch, so all your dates and your PowerPoints would be offset, and

01:15:40   like, there are always problems.

01:15:42   But Apple is not even, it's not even a contender, like they're, they're defeating themselves,

01:15:48   like it's, you know, stop hitting yourself, Apple, like they're punching themselves in

01:15:51   the face with "I work".

01:15:52   They're just not, not a contender in this race.

01:15:56   And to play devil's advocate for a second here, all of the characteristics that make

01:16:00   Microsoft so good and reliable at being an office software supplier also make them very

01:16:06   boring and unable to compete in a lot of consumer space.

01:16:09   Because all those values, you need the opposite characteristics to make a lot of great products

01:16:15   in the spaces that we care more about these days.

01:16:17   But that being said, a lot of Apple's problems are just botched execution or bad decisions.

01:16:25   the people in the chat were pointing out earlier,

01:16:26   like you can make a lot of these same arguments

01:16:28   about Final Cut Pro X when that came out.

01:16:31   That like it was Apple clearly like moving the ball forward

01:16:36   way too aggressively and cutting way too much out

01:16:39   and starting over and angering every user

01:16:42   of this software basically.

01:16:45   - I think Final Cut Pro X is more defensible

01:16:47   because they were moving forward.

01:16:50   They felt like, I think they miscalculated their power maybe.

01:16:54   Like they thought that they could make this great leap

01:16:57   and that they would leave some people behind

01:16:59   but that this future destination is better.

01:17:01   And that in the end it would work out.

01:17:03   They could bring their market,

01:17:06   they could bring everybody ahead with them.

01:17:07   There would be stragglers, people would grumble about it,

01:17:09   kind of like OS X where it was kind of a mess

01:17:11   in the beginning, people grumbled,

01:17:13   but in the end the greatness of it

01:17:14   like compelled everyone to move along.

01:17:17   And plus it got this other audience of people

01:17:18   who were never interested in the Mac.

01:17:19   'Cause hey, this has Unix underneath it

01:17:20   and it has a nice GUI.

01:17:21   Like that strategy worked with them for OS X.

01:17:24   They did essentially the same thing with Final Cut Pro.

01:17:27   It was also combined with like the crazy price drop thing.

01:17:29   Like forget about iWork being like, you know,

01:17:31   that was never sustaining itself

01:17:32   'cause not enough things were sold.

01:17:34   I think the Pro apps were much closer

01:17:36   to sustaining themselves as, you know,

01:17:38   marketable products in their own right.

01:17:40   But even those got the ax and say like,

01:17:42   no, you can't be $300 anymore.

01:17:44   You gotta be 79 bucks.

01:17:45   I was like, this is the max we'll charge.

01:17:46   And so now you know they're not sustainable

01:17:48   and then they get less updates

01:17:49   and the Final Cut Pro 10 thing didn't work out

01:17:51   the way they wanted it to.

01:17:52   And it's just been a series of miscalculations.

01:17:55   And the pro apps are not things

01:17:57   that are trying to help them sell hardware, right?

01:18:00   It's not that there's just too small of a market.

01:18:02   They were for Apple is for a while

01:18:04   in the business of selling software to pros.

01:18:07   And they seem to have sort of,

01:18:10   in the same way that lost interest

01:18:11   selling the X serve and X serve rate and everything,

01:18:13   seem to have lost interest in pro software

01:18:15   canceling programs, they cancel Shake or something like that.

01:18:18   And Final Cut Pro X.

01:18:21   I still thought Pro X was a good idea.

01:18:24   It just didn't quite work out as well for them

01:18:26   as you know, OS X did.

01:18:27   - Well, exactly.

01:18:28   And that's, you know, this is the problem.

01:18:30   The Apple hardware is like firing on all cylinders.

01:18:33   The hardware these days is great.

01:18:35   Last few years, you can see like,

01:18:37   almost every hardware product Apple has made

01:18:39   in the last three to five years has just been awesome.

01:18:43   Like there's been very few exceptions to that.

01:18:45   And yet, on the software side, they're just crumbling

01:18:49   on so many different fronts so frequently.

01:18:52   I really worry about them,

01:18:53   'cause it used to be that they moved much more slowly

01:18:56   and were much smaller,

01:18:57   but they had a solid reputation of reliability

01:19:01   and ease of use and stability.

01:19:04   And all of this was,

01:19:06   that's what carried their brand for so long.

01:19:08   That's why people would buy Apple products

01:19:11   because it would quote, "Just work."

01:19:13   Because they would be better.

01:19:16   They would be more stable.

01:19:17   They would be more intuitive.

01:19:18   everything would work better than in the PC world.

01:19:22   And in the last few years, this has crumbled so far

01:19:26   that I don't necessarily think,

01:19:28   I mean, unless PCs have gotten really bad, I don't know,

01:19:30   I haven't used them in a while,

01:19:31   but I think the Apple platform no longer has

01:19:35   that high ground nearly as much as it used to

01:19:38   if it still has it at all.

01:19:40   - Maybe not in the application space, in the OS space.

01:19:43   Like, I mean, I know a lot of people complain

01:19:44   about you, somebody, but like I said in my review,

01:19:47   Truth like I upgrade all my machines sooner and sooner like I just I just upgrade everything and it's just been

01:19:53   remarkably

01:19:55   problem-free

01:19:57   IOS 8 not so much which is weird because that's their like more important platform. I always say it was super buggy for me

01:20:03   I still occasionally can't copy a URL and paste it into another application. I have no idea why I'm on 8.1 now

01:20:10   Drives me insane and no I don't have one password installed and no I don't have any custom keywords installed

01:20:15   It's mysterious, but I think they're their OS, you know OS 10 at least

01:20:20   Those guys are doing a good job

01:20:22   I mean you can still argue about whether they want to yearly releases and stuff

01:20:25   But then if you look at their application software, that's not part of the OS any application software

01:20:31   That's not part of the s like I think this came up on one of our podcasts in the past

01:20:34   It was like name an Apple application that like they're like would win an ADA

01:20:38   That that is it is an example an Apple to Apple design award for people who don't know

01:20:42   There is a shining example of what it's like to be an awesome Mac application name one

01:20:47   That's not bundled with the OS and that used to be pretty easy to do like the whole iLite suite was pretty amazing

01:20:53   It's like, you know, they're the original version of iPhone that would win an ADA. This is an amazing application

01:20:58   Now I don't think anyone would say that about iPhone

01:21:01   No one would say about anything in the iWork suite. Like I don't think Apple is

01:21:05   Leading in software by saying if you were awesome. These are the kind of Mac apps you would make

01:21:11   All right. Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week Squarespace, Harry's and Lynda.com and we will see you next week

01:21:19   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:21:28   It was accidental

01:21:31   John didn't do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

01:21:40   It was accidental

01:21:42   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:21:47   And if you're into Twitter

01:21:50   You can follow them at

01:21:53   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:21:57   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:22:01   Auntie Marco Arment

01:22:04   S-I-R-A-C

01:22:06   USA, Syracuse

01:22:09   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:22:11   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:22:12   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:22:15   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:22:16   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:22:17   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:22:19   ♪ So long ♪

01:22:22   (man snoring)

01:22:24   (laughing)

01:22:25   Oh, you're gonna snore some more now Casey.

01:22:26   I didn't wanna put this in the controller part

01:22:28   'cause I thought we'd spend enough time.

01:22:29   But every time I talk about controller stuff,

01:22:31   the Wii U Pro Controller people keep coming out and saying,

01:22:34   "What's wrong with the Wii U Pro Controller?

01:22:36   Why do you keep saying bad things

01:22:37   about the Wii U Pro Controller?"

01:22:38   And I how many times have I talked about what I don't like about it like you two have heard it before right?

01:22:42   Mmm. I'm sure I have but I don't remember which now I'm giving you giving you the excuse to tell me more

01:22:48   Remember because I say it and immediately I put links in the chat room so people can look at them

01:22:53   The Wii U Pro controller and the game you control it

01:22:56   I guess the Wii U Pro controller if you looked at it in your hand you're like oh like like any Nintendo peripheral they make

01:23:02   solid hardware in that like

01:23:04   I'm not gonna say it's indestructible, but it's pretty darn tough like it feels like a solid thing you can abuse it

01:23:11   It does not fall apart in general Nintendo is really good at making solid hardware

01:23:16   So this feels like a solid product, but the problems with our the same

01:23:19   I mean if you listen to my hypercritical

01:23:21   I know we talked about this is I'd like we linked the hypercritical episodes a couple times to hypercritical episodes where I talked about

01:23:26   video game controllers

01:23:29   the main problem with the Wii U pro controller is that the

01:23:34   The right thumb stick is the place where the button should be sort of the primary control location. Oh, yes. Yes

01:23:40   You have talked about this

01:23:41   Yeah

01:23:41   And so they're just in reverse now if you if you use two stick shooters

01:23:44   Maybe but even then I I like the octagonal surrounds for the sticks and they have round surrounds

01:23:49   I don't like having uniform buttons that are all the same size laid out in a diamond pattern

01:23:53   Because not every button is equally important and games most have a main button in a secondary button tertiary buttons

01:23:59   And it doesn't feel as comfortable so like it's in almost every way the controller can can be inferior to the GameCube controller

01:24:07   it is except the d-pad which is much better and the triggers are probably better - and

01:24:10   The build quality is maybe a little bit

01:24:13   It looks a little bit higher end because of the glossy finish on top or whatever and of course

01:24:17   It's wireless and USB chargeable and all that modern technology type stuff, but

01:24:20   No, that's why I don't like the Wii U Pro controller. That's why nobody likes the Wii U Pro controller

01:24:24   That's right. Nobody in the entire universe what I'm saying is there's not a single person in the world

01:24:28   Oh, yeah likes the Wii U Pro controller. Even its designer doesn't like it. That's right

01:24:32   And the mother of the designer doesn't like it. Email John, please email John. I said every time I say that I don't like it

01:24:38   It's like wait a second. Are you saying that nobody likes that controller? I like it. I had the pony

01:24:42   You know that you got that reference case? No. Nope. That's okay. I

01:24:46   Got a I got a silver game cue controller. I forgot if I told you that I saw that

01:24:50   I think you tweeted a picture of it mint in box. Well, it's in box

01:24:54   anyway the box is not mint but anyway point is hasn't been opened hmm how much

01:24:59   does that cost you not too much 200 bucks no I'm not paid $200 for it speaking of

01:25:06   things that cost $200 I ordered my phone what hey alright of course there's a

01:25:11   wait you know which what'd you get what'd you get the gold one yeah I got the

01:25:17   phone that everyone gets 64 black yep space gray please yeah right yeah are

01:25:23   - Are you gonna do a case?

01:25:25   - I already kept the case is already here.

01:25:26   The phone is not, but they can't see.

01:25:28   I got the black leather case.

01:25:30   - You have exactly my phone then,

01:25:31   or will have exactly my phone.

01:25:33   - And mine.

01:25:34   - I considered getting a red one,

01:25:35   but I just, I don't know, I couldn't do it.

01:25:37   - The case, the colored cases do not wear gracefully.

01:25:41   - I definitely love the case.

01:25:43   Like I definitely think you're making the right move

01:25:46   getting a case and I question whether you're making

01:25:48   the right move getting a six, but oh well.

01:25:50   - What, instead of a six plus?

01:25:52   - Instead of a five S.

01:25:53   - Oh no, come on.

01:25:55   You think I'm gonna finally buy an iPhone

01:25:58   after like six years,

01:25:59   then I'm gonna buy a generation old one?

01:26:01   Not gonna happen.

01:26:02   I had one for a week, I know what I'm getting into.

01:26:04   It's not like I'm gonna be surprised.

01:26:05   - All right, that's fair.

01:26:07   - So Marco, if you were to buy a new phone tomorrow,

01:26:10   the 6S is out and you can get it in four

01:26:14   or four point whatever inches, seven?

01:26:16   - Seven, yeah.

01:26:17   - What are you buying?

01:26:19   - That would, so does the smaller one

01:26:21   have the same camera as the bigger one?

01:26:23   - Sure, it's identical in every way,

01:26:25   except that it's physically smaller.

01:26:28   - Battery life?

01:26:30   - We'll call it equivalent,

01:26:32   because the screen is so much smaller.

01:26:34   - I think I go smaller.

01:26:36   - The thing of it is is that I still

01:26:39   just drastically prefer the feel in the hand of the 5S,

01:26:43   but golly, I am getting used to the new screen

01:26:46   and I am liking it.

01:26:48   - Oh, I like it when I'm using it,

01:26:50   unless I'm using it one-handed,

01:26:51   like while walking around doing something.

01:26:53   And unfortunately, that's a pretty major role of a phone

01:26:55   for most people.

01:26:57   So I just really, it's like getting a 17 inch MacBook Air

01:27:01   or MacBook Pro.

01:27:02   It's like, it seems like a good idea

01:27:05   if you park it at a desk most of the time

01:27:07   and don't bring it with you most of the time.

01:27:08   But if you're carrying it with you back and forth to work

01:27:11   in a backpack every single day,

01:27:13   you might regret that decision.

01:27:14   That might not be the best choice for you.

01:27:17   With a phone, it's like you have to consider

01:27:18   how it's actually used.

01:27:19   And yes, a bigger screen is nicer while it's being used.

01:27:23   Like in two-handed, you know, it's stationary.

01:27:26   It is indeed nicer.

01:27:28   But is it worth the trade-off in portability

01:27:31   in the sense that it makes it harder to use while portable

01:27:34   for a lot of people?

01:27:35   And obviously that's an individual decision.

01:27:39   For people who are going back to the 5S

01:27:41   or who are still using the 5S and not upgrading,

01:27:44   I totally get that decision.

01:27:45   I totally respect that decision.

01:27:46   And I've almost made that decision.

01:27:48   I think I will ultimately stick with the 6,

01:27:50   but I've come very close to going back to the 5S

01:27:54   because every time I pick it up,

01:27:56   I think not only does it look way better,

01:27:57   but it just feels so much better to use.

01:28:00   And yes, it does look tiny,

01:28:01   but everything I do is a million times faster,

01:28:04   my grip is more secure, I can reach everything,

01:28:07   it's less frustrating,

01:28:08   'cause the fact is, as I've said earlier,

01:28:10   iOS and iOS apps are still largely designed

01:28:15   with the assumption that you can always reach

01:28:16   all four corners.

01:28:17   So many important buttons are up on the upper corners

01:28:20   that are hard to reach on the 6.

01:28:21   And that, maybe over time that changes.

01:28:25   But we're not there yet, both in the OS and all the apps.

01:28:28   And it's gonna be a while.

01:28:30   So I think in the future this might be easier

01:28:32   to use a larger phone because like the software

01:28:34   will be more finger local in a lot of ways.

01:28:38   Like it will assume that you're only holding

01:28:41   the bottom two thirds of the phone.

01:28:43   But until that point, and that point is not here yet,

01:28:46   And again, when the watch comes,

01:28:50   and when your phone is less often needed

01:28:53   to be used one-handed,

01:28:55   if you can do certain things on the watch

01:28:56   that you'd previously take your phone

01:28:59   out of your pocket to do while walking somewhere,

01:29:01   while doing something, then again, that will also help.

01:29:04   But we're not there yet either.

01:29:06   So I think for this year, it makes sense

01:29:08   for a lot of people who are sensitive to this

01:29:11   to not upgrade it to the 6.

01:29:12   And then maybe next year, we'll see what happens.

01:29:14   As the environment around it changes,

01:29:16   as we get the watch,

01:29:17   as we get different software considerations,

01:29:20   we'll see what happens.

01:29:21   But as of today, I think it's a tough call.

01:29:24   - Well, consider the rumored mix of 6 and 6 Plus.

01:29:28   I don't know if this is rumored or announced,

01:29:29   but I've seen numbers thrown around

01:29:31   that make the mix of 6 and 6 Plus look way closer to 50/50

01:29:35   than I ever thought it would be.

01:29:37   Do you know any sources of authoritative numbers

01:29:39   or have heard similar rumors?

01:29:41   - I haven't seen anybody with any credibility.

01:29:43   Yeah, I don't forget where I saw it.

01:29:45   I mean, I'm assuming I saw it from like maybe a Simco

01:29:48   or maybe some related thing.

01:29:49   I don't know.

01:29:49   I don't know if they'll ever tell us the mix,

01:29:51   but what I can pretty confidently say

01:29:56   is that I think we would have heard a story

01:29:57   if it turned out that the 5S was like selling massively.

01:30:01   You know, like the people weren't getting the 6

01:30:03   that all the hardcore people were buying 5S's

01:30:05   and it was just a crazy, I mean,

01:30:07   and the thing against the 5S now is not so much

01:30:10   just that it's older and slower,

01:30:12   but also no Apple Pay, right?

01:30:14   No NFC.

01:30:15   And so if Apple does continue to make a smaller line,

01:30:18   which is still up for grabs,

01:30:19   what they do, if they gave it feature parity,

01:30:22   then it would be like the iPads were last year,

01:30:25   just pick the size.

01:30:25   And if you had three sizes to pick from,

01:30:27   they would have really covered

01:30:28   pretty much every base you can imagine.

01:30:31   - Well, and the Apple Pay, again,

01:30:32   that's another thing where you have to look and say,

01:30:34   well, Apple Pay just launched,

01:30:37   it is still not supported widely yet.

01:30:40   And in a year from now, then a lot of American places

01:30:44   will have replaced their terminals

01:30:45   with the new touchless terminals and everything,

01:30:47   so you'll have more of that.

01:30:48   I feel like over time,

01:30:51   the usefulness of the larger phones will grow,

01:30:54   but today it's more of a tough call.

01:30:56   That also being said,

01:30:57   all of this is not to say they won't sell well

01:31:01   or that they aren't selling well.

01:31:02   It's just like the TV in the store bright picture problem.

01:31:06   People are going to buy these things in large numbers,

01:31:09   regardless of whether they're actually easy,

01:31:11   easy or better to use than the smaller ones.

01:31:14   - Well, don't you think this is pent up demand

01:31:15   for people who knew they wanted a bigger phone?

01:31:18   - Oh yeah.

01:31:18   - You know, like they knew,

01:31:19   like it wasn't like they were speculating,

01:31:21   they're like, I think I might like a bigger phone.

01:31:22   They're like, maybe they were coming from a bigger phone

01:31:24   and they're just like, I would buy the iPhone

01:31:25   except it's too small.

01:31:26   It's the whole reason they needed a bigger phone.

01:31:27   So I, you know, and the number that I probably read,

01:31:30   MTW in the chat room said the T-Mobile CEO

01:31:33   said it was close to 50/50.

01:31:34   Obviously he can only report on his own sales,

01:31:36   but if that's true, we could try to find a link to it.

01:31:41   That is at least one data point.

01:31:43   - Yeah, I mean, who knows what the truth is?

01:31:46   I think you're right that we'll probably never know.

01:31:48   I do think it would be interesting if large apps

01:31:53   with analytics packages, they could start tracking things.

01:31:56   Or large analytics companies,

01:31:59   they could start publishing numbers,

01:32:00   like what does Flurry say?

01:32:02   What percentage that they're installed on

01:32:03   is this versus this model?

01:32:05   That we can definitely, we'll have that information

01:32:07   if we don't already have it.

01:32:08   Yeah, again, I think they're gonna do fine with this

01:32:12   and that's fine and in the future

01:32:13   it might be better to use them,

01:32:15   but that doesn't make these large phones

01:32:19   a great solution today for a lot of priorities.

01:32:21   And look, a lot of people are very happy with them.

01:32:24   A lot of people love these things.

01:32:26   I was even one of the people saying I want a bigger phone

01:32:29   and I jumped to get one as soon as I could,

01:32:31   But maybe there's a better point between 4.0 and 4.7.

01:32:36   That's a pretty big range.

01:32:39   You know, like maybe a 4.3 would be great.

01:32:42   You know, you get a little bit more space.

01:32:44   I don't know.

01:32:44   - 4.7 is the compromise size.

01:32:47   Like you're not just shaving inches.

01:32:49   You're gonna be like, you know,

01:32:51   you just need bigger hands.

01:32:52   That's what it comes down to.

01:32:53   - Yeah, I'll just upgrade them next year

01:32:55   when I'm off contract with you.

01:32:57   - With my week with the six, like I said,

01:32:59   I think what happened was that I just upgraded my hand motions.

01:33:02   I upgraded my little hand gymnastics.

01:33:05   And you hold the phone differently than everybody else in the world.

01:33:08   Well, you know, like the moves you do to get to the parts that you have to do, because

01:33:12   like you said, the software just isn't updated.

01:33:14   I'm using apps that were made for at best the iPhone 5 screen and at worst, you know,

01:33:18   the smaller 3.5 inch.

01:33:21   And I upgraded my hand moves so much so that it went back to the smaller one, I would find

01:33:26   myself starting to do the hand move that I needed to do to hit the done button in Twitter

01:33:30   if I can realize, oh, I don't need to do that move. I can go back to my other move to do,

01:33:34   you know. I think that will mostly take care of itself, though. And like, the reason I

01:33:37   think I'm not bothered by it is because once I sort of upgrade all my, you know, my hands

01:33:42   move set, then it's fine. Like, the only, I think the only persistent bothersome thing

01:33:47   about the iPhone 6 for me was how much room it took out, took in whatever pocket I had

01:33:52   it in. Because that didn't go well. It always felt like it was bigger, it was more, you

01:33:56   It was taking up more if I put it in my front jeans pocket

01:33:58   It was more likely to feel it under stress if I sat down and i'm a little paranoid about bending it

01:34:02   if it's in my coat pocket it pokes out a little bit farther than the other one did but

01:34:05   That that I think will get over because I really do use mine

01:34:09   more like a little mini tablet

01:34:12   so

01:34:13   Do you think there will ever come a time that?

01:34:15   If you think back to

01:34:19   The tweety days polder refresh wasn't a thing and then lauren brichter did it with tweety

01:34:24   And then it became a thing.

01:34:26   It literally became a system level thing.

01:34:28   So do you think there may come a time where iOS transitions to a back button at

01:34:36   the bottom of the screen kind of layout, be it because some popular app like

01:34:41   Tweety does it and everyone embraces it, or perhaps because the SDK changes and

01:34:47   suddenly, um, tab bars are at the top, Android style and back buttons are at

01:34:52   the bottom.

01:34:52   Do you think that would ever happen?

01:34:54   I think they're going for the system back gesture.

01:34:57   That's their attempt to say, here's

01:34:58   a new paradigm for navigation.

01:35:00   Instead of having a toolbar that you

01:35:01   have to reach a back button that's really hard to find,

01:35:04   do the system swipe.

01:35:05   But I think that swipe is--

01:35:07   I know I almost never do it.

01:35:09   It is not obvious.

01:35:10   Even if you show someone to it, they don't--

01:35:11   Oh, I do it all the time.

01:35:13   Yeah, I pretty much almost never do it.

01:35:14   And I don't think it's the type of thing

01:35:16   that if you show somebody, they will do all the time,

01:35:19   because it's not reliable.

01:35:20   It depends on which application you're using,

01:35:22   whether it works or not.

01:35:23   to it is a fairly precise gesture.

01:35:25   It's not, there's not a lot of slop on it

01:35:28   because if you just do a swipe sideways

01:35:30   that may do something, but it's not the back one

01:35:32   that has to involve the edge.

01:35:33   And like, I think there's too much nuance to it.

01:35:35   So I think what you were saying, Casey,

01:35:36   is more likely that application developers will,

01:35:41   especially if the 6+ ends up being like super popular,

01:35:44   they'll have to redesign their applications

01:35:47   to be inside like the thumb, you know, the thumb hot zone,

01:35:50   like where you can reach, where, you know,

01:35:52   put everything that's important within reach and then suddenly the phone doesn't feel as big anymore because the apps are designed not to have

01:35:58   You do that and whatever paradigm it is that that does that whether it's moving everything to the bottom or you know

01:36:03   I don't know what the solution is reachability is definitely not it

01:36:06   That's like a hack that I'm sure a few people might use but that's not the best solution

01:36:12   But yeah

01:36:12   I am hoping that the UI is redesign themselves and we standardize on

01:36:16   Even though it's not Apple doing it even it's just like, you know

01:36:19   the hamburger button thing which Apple is not popularizing that and like you said that pull to refresh, you know

01:36:24   Come out of the third-party world and have there be some kind of

01:36:27   Consensus and have all the applications start to look the same and then Apple roll it in that's that's plausible

01:36:32   Yeah now in other news Marco. Have you played with your retina iMac at all?

01:36:37   Yeah, I'm using it right now. No and yeah, I've been using a full-time for about two days

01:36:42   Oh, I didn't realize and things are amazing or whatever. Oh my god. It's amazing. Oh good. Oh my god

01:36:48   It's, yeah, it's amazing.

01:36:51   There's, so there's actually a few things

01:36:54   that I've had to change as a result of going to Retina

01:36:58   that are very, very boring.

01:37:00   So I'm gonna tell you about them.

01:37:02   So the first thing is, that's fair.

01:37:05   So as John knows with Yosemite stuff,

01:37:08   this was also an upgrade to Yosemite.

01:37:11   So as John has pointed out, Yosemite takes cues

01:37:15   from the desktop wallpaper to do most of its blurriness.

01:37:19   So please email Jon with the details

01:37:22   of how I got that wrong.

01:37:23   So the problem is before, for years,

01:37:26   I've used just like a static, like medium gray background,

01:37:29   and I've put a whole bunch of crap on my desktop,

01:37:32   and I save everything on the desktop,

01:37:33   and everything's all, it's Jon's disaster scenario.

01:37:35   It's like everything is saved on the desktop.

01:37:37   In Yosemite, if you have a solid color desktop

01:37:39   that has some drab dark color,

01:37:42   many windows will pick that up in some little way,

01:37:45   and just look terrible.

01:37:46   You know, you just have these awful,

01:37:48   I mean, Jon, you saw this, right?

01:37:49   In your testing and stuff?

01:37:51   - Yeah, like my background at work, I said, has pumpkins.

01:37:54   Pumpkins are nice and beautiful and orange,

01:37:55   but they make everything look terribly sick and rusty.

01:37:59   - Well, yeah, but even like,

01:38:00   like you can't just do a solid color,

01:38:02   a flat color background even that,

01:38:03   because even the flat color backgrounds

01:38:05   now will make many things in Yosemite look terrible.

01:38:08   - If you want to get away from this effect,

01:38:11   use a background that has enough light colors in it.

01:38:14   Like if it has like blue sky with fluffy white clouds your menu bar will look sane and most of your windows and menus

01:38:21   Won't look that crazy

01:38:23   Maybe maybe they'll like it'll look like the color temperature on your monitor is off because it'll be a little bit blue

01:38:27   Because that's what that's what I have here at home

01:38:29   I have a desktop background that has a white sky with fluffy clouds moving up to top it and my menu bar

01:38:35   Looks okay and the menus I pulled down from it look a little blue, but like there's something about anything

01:38:40   that's like brown or green it just it just makes the whole interface look sick

01:38:44   like it's like sick house syndrome but for your Mac. Funny that you mentioned

01:38:47   that so basically I have I tried a few different things and what I've come to

01:38:54   is I started using the wallpaper I've been using on my retina MacBook Pro

01:38:58   since I got it in 2012 which is a bright sky blue photo I took in New Zealand of

01:39:05   of the bright sunlit sky and a bright blue ocean.

01:39:09   And so it's this nice, like sunny, bright blue picture

01:39:13   and it's crisp and it looks amazing

01:39:15   on the retina resolution.

01:39:16   It's fantastic for this purpose

01:39:19   'cause it works with everything as you said.

01:39:21   Like a light blue color is great for this.

01:39:24   I also then had to declutter my desktop

01:39:26   because it looked terrible covered in files.

01:39:29   (laughing)

01:39:30   - Good.

01:39:31   - Especially if like, when they change the iTunes icon,

01:39:33   of course they also change the file.

01:39:34   Like if you have an MP3, it gets the iTunes file icon.

01:39:37   So all of a sudden, everything that used to have

01:39:39   a blue dot on it has this big shining red dot,

01:39:41   it looks like the Japanese flag all over your desktop.

01:39:43   (laughs)

01:39:44   - Yeah, so I clean up my desktop,

01:39:47   like that had to change also, 'cause that was part of it.

01:39:50   Also, my monospace font had to change,

01:39:54   because I was a Monaco holdout.

01:39:56   All these years, I was doing Monaco non-anti-aliased

01:39:59   on my desktop.

01:39:59   - Go to Inconsolata.

01:40:01   - I haven't tried that yet.

01:40:02   So right now I'm on Menlo,

01:40:03   'cause I basically inherited what I've been doing

01:40:06   on my Retina laptop since that existed.

01:40:08   So I went from Monaco 10 to Menlo 11.

01:40:12   I had to go up a size also.

01:40:14   And part of that is just because of,

01:40:16   I think it just looks better on Retina.

01:40:17   And part of that is because I went

01:40:19   from a 30 inch screen to a 27.

01:40:21   So I actually have a decrease in the size

01:40:24   of elements on screen.

01:40:25   'Cause it's the same point width,

01:40:27   but three inches smaller diagonal.

01:40:29   So it actually is like everything is noticeably

01:40:31   a little bit smaller.

01:40:33   But other, so I'm actually like,

01:40:34   I'm fitting less per line in Xcode.

01:40:36   I have to like go change my line wrap settings

01:40:38   and adjust my standards and everything.

01:40:40   - Not the same point width as your 30 inch, is it?

01:40:42   - Yeah, 2560.

01:40:44   - Really? - Yep.

01:40:45   It's a little bit shorter vertically,

01:40:46   but horizontal is the same. - Oh, that's the difference.

01:40:47   All right. - Yeah.

01:40:48   - Yeah, I've been thinking about what I'm going to go to

01:40:52   because I'm also a bitmap Monaco holdout.

01:40:54   I'm still on bitmap Monaco 9,

01:40:55   but obviously once I go red now,

01:40:56   that is not tenable anymore,

01:40:57   so I'll have to pick a different font.

01:40:59   - You're a nine.

01:41:00   Wow, I was always 10.

01:41:01   - Monaco, yeah, Monaco 9 has been my font.

01:41:03   hardcore since the since the old days when lowercase l and capital I looked exactly the same

01:41:07   hardcore Monaco 9 users

01:41:10   Yeah, that's been the biggest difference like so like you know now

01:41:13   I'm basically using like this this like clean wallpapered beach scene computer with all these big smooth fonts on it

01:41:20   compared to my old like super geek Monaco pixel font, but I got used to it very quickly and then so

01:41:27   So Tiff's iMac arrived today and I've been I've been back and forth with her computer setting it up and

01:41:32   Going from her old computer to her new one. I keep having to briefly use

01:41:36   her

01:41:38   27 inch Thunderbolt display which of course is a non retina same size very similar finish the iMac though is less glossy

01:41:45   But it's still still reflective just you know less so

01:41:48   Same size same pixel dimensions and and the 27 inch Thunderbolt is no slouch

01:41:54   It's a very good looking monitor like but my old my big 30 inch HP

01:41:58   Mediocre monitor always had you know far more drab colors

01:42:03   And you know worse contrast and everything than this awesome little 27 inch that if always had

01:42:07   Well now that I was using the retina for I was using it for one day

01:42:12   And I go to see TIS monitor, and it just looks like complete garbage like you see every pixel

01:42:17   It's like it looks like you're going back to DOS like it's you you can't believe how much worse

01:42:22   it looks like once once every screen you see all day is retina when you see it non retina one it is

01:42:30   Shocking like it's a it's a big big difference. So yeah, that's how it's going. I'm loving it. It's great. The there is fan noise

01:42:38   Not in not in most workloads, but if you if you stress the CPUs for more than about a minute or so

01:42:46   Like if you're using handbrake to encode a video or something like that

01:42:49   that if you max out all the CPUs for more than about a minute, you will hear the fan

01:42:54   spin up. And I would say the overall noise level is similar to the Retina MacBook Pro

01:43:00   when it's spun up. So it's like a nice kind of like medium, it sounds more like white

01:43:06   noise than the old fans, like Casey's fan.

01:43:09   Oh yes.

01:43:10   It sounds more like white noise. It has like the asymmetrical blades, I assume, to do that.

01:43:15   And it is not, I would not call it loud,

01:43:19   but you do definitely hear it.

01:43:22   And it is, yeah, I would say it's very similar

01:43:25   to the 15 inch Retina Mipro Pro under full load.

01:43:29   So it's fine, I'll see in practice over time

01:43:32   if that ends up being a problem.

01:43:34   While recording this podcast,

01:43:36   I've been monitoring the fan speed

01:43:38   and it has not gone above its idle speed

01:43:40   during this entire time,

01:43:41   so I'm not worried about things like this being a problem.

01:43:44   We'll see what happens if I have to encode a bunch of video

01:43:47   or something with edits.

01:43:49   The reality is I need CPU speed,

01:43:53   but I usually need it in short bursts,

01:43:55   like compiling an Xcode or encoding the MP3 for the show.

01:43:59   I need it in short bursts,

01:44:00   and so I don't think the fan noise

01:44:02   is ever really gonna be a huge problem for me,

01:44:05   but I'll see what happens.

01:44:07   This might be the one factor that in two years

01:44:10   makes me want the new Mac Pro

01:44:11   that can drive the new 5K standalone display,

01:44:13   but we'll see.

01:44:14   For now, I'm very, very happy with this.

01:44:15   Good.

01:44:16   I'm X for everyone.

01:44:17   Yeah, something like that.

01:44:19   Titles?

01:44:20   Before I really do start snoring.

01:44:22   How are you still awake?

01:44:23   I'm dying.

01:44:24   I am absolutely dying, if I'm honest.

01:44:27   It should be less of a hardship for you because day and night just cease to have all meaning,

01:44:30   and this should be just like if we were doing it at like 11am in the morning.

01:44:35   [BLANK_AUDIO]