89: DeLorean + McLaren


00:00:00   Hi, I'm disheveled. So how's things? Good, good. I'm looking at the show notes. I don't know what

00:00:04   we're talking about. We're talking about your kid. Well, nobody wants to hear about that for

00:00:09   more than a moment. I don't think that's true. Pull together, dad, dad, daddy-o.

00:00:15   So this... Oh my God. That's the reference for Casey to get. I'm trying to lead him in gently.

00:00:21   That is Back to the Future? Boom. All right. See, I'm a changed man, guys.

00:00:28   - It's a gentle slope, you just get right up on that bicycle.

00:00:31   (laughing)

00:00:33   - Oh God.

00:00:35   - I've seen Back to the Future a lot

00:00:37   and I don't remember that at all.

00:00:39   - Not as much as Casey.

00:00:41   - Yeah, I am, let's see, what happened?

00:00:43   I am 397 tweets behind and I've declared bankruptcy

00:00:46   like four or five times over the last three days.

00:00:48   - Yeah, I think you, this might be the turning point

00:00:52   in your life for a number of things.

00:00:54   (laughing)

00:00:55   not least of which will be that you may no longer

00:00:59   be able to be a Twitter completionist.

00:01:01   - Well, I've already been slowly embracing

00:01:03   not being a Twitter completionist,

00:01:05   but yeah, I think that that is long gone now.

00:01:09   - I don't know, I managed to do it.

00:01:10   Two kids, just saying.

00:01:11   - I'm actually not that sleepy,

00:01:15   but I don't know what day it is.

00:01:16   I don't know what time it is.

00:01:18   I barely remember who you two are,

00:01:20   and I don't remember if we talk about Apple

00:01:22   or Microsoft on this podcast.

00:01:24   So if you're not that sleepy, then how do you

00:01:27   know what time it is?

00:01:29   Because it's been a blur.

00:01:31   And it's a wonderful, awesome, I'm so thankful for it blur,

00:01:34   but a blur nevertheless.

00:01:36   Yep, only 18 more years.

00:01:38   Yeah, I've already started the countdown.

00:01:40   Yeah, because you know, parenthood totally

00:01:42   ends when they go to college.

00:01:43   You definitely have to worry about them or do their laundry.

00:01:45   Best case scenario, I'm saying.

00:01:47   Yeah, right.

00:01:48   So best case scenario is, screw you, dad, I hate you.

00:01:51   I'm leaving and you can never talk to me again.

00:01:53   No, it goes off to college on a scholarship.

00:01:56   I see him on holidays, and then he goes off to get married

00:02:00   and have kids and get a job and live the American dream

00:02:03   with the white picket fence and blah, blah, blah.

00:02:04   Right, that's how it works.

00:02:06   - So you say that, but consider that

00:02:08   because we just had a baby,

00:02:11   Aaron's mom is downstairs pinch hitting for me

00:02:13   so I can talk to you two knuckleheads,

00:02:16   which by the way, and you're two defense,

00:02:18   neither of you were pressuring me to do this tonight,

00:02:20   so I just wanna make that plain.

00:02:22   But anyways, and then I've seen my parents and her dad probably four times in three days or something like that.

00:02:28   So, yeah. You say that it ends after 18 years, but it doesn't end after 18 years.

00:02:34   Or the other alternative is your son becomes a very important general in the water wars that happen when he's an adult.

00:02:41   Is that your conspiracy theory of choice, Jon?

00:02:44   No, I'm just saying it'll be ecological disaster and it'll be like Mad Max, but instead of fighting over gasoline, it'll be fighting over water because the earth will be destroyed.

00:02:51   destroyed. Cool. Well, that sounds fun. I'm glad we brought

00:02:55   him into the world for that. So laundry is looking pretty good

00:02:58   now, isn't it? Yeah. Casey did you miss us? It's obviously you

00:03:02   must have because this is this wonderful conversation. This is

00:03:07   of utmost importance. This is definitely worth you having

00:03:10   taken literally only 2 days and 30 minutes of paternity leave.

00:03:14   Well, the thing is I don't want this show to turn into a total

00:03:18   heap and I know you two and I know you'll turn it into one

00:03:21   if you don't have me guiding you along.

00:03:22   I mean, you'll get through one item of follow-up,

00:03:24   and that's just no fun.

00:03:26   - Oh yeah, I mean, the question came up

00:03:28   on some podcast I did a forever ago, I don't know.

00:03:32   Somebody asked, like, you know,

00:03:34   if this was before the show existed,

00:03:36   when Jon and I were both still on five by five

00:03:38   with our own shows, someone once suggested

00:03:41   somewhere publicly, you know, should we, you know,

00:03:43   should me and Jon team up and then do a show together?

00:03:46   And I believe my response at the time was

00:03:48   it would never work.

00:03:49   we would need some kind of third person

00:03:51   to help guide us along,

00:03:53   because the two of us would just talk forever

00:03:54   and it would never end and it would be very, very boring.

00:03:57   So here you are.

00:03:58   - Indeed, hi everybody.

00:04:00   Actually, I have that clip easily available

00:04:03   because I heard it, somebody called it to my attention

00:04:05   forever ago. - Yeah, yeah.

00:04:07   - And I saved it because I thought it was

00:04:09   extremely prescient of you.

00:04:11   It was "Build and Analyze" number 25.

00:04:13   - I think if you had both me and John Siracusa

00:04:17   on the same show,

00:04:18   If you weren't there at all, it would be terrible,

00:04:20   'cause we would both just ramble on forever,

00:04:22   'cause we're definitely the commentator type.

00:04:24   And there'd be nobody to drive us, right?

00:04:28   Like you drive us really well,

00:04:30   and there wouldn't be somebody there to do that.

00:04:32   And if you were there, and there were both of us there,

00:04:35   I think we both have so much to say

00:04:39   that I think it wouldn't work.

00:04:41   Like there would just be no room for the host,

00:04:44   'cause the guests would be talking so much

00:04:46   about so much stuff and not willing to yield the floor ever

00:04:50   that the host wouldn't have any time to get a word in,

00:04:53   and therefore it'd be almost like the host was absent.

00:04:55   (gentle music)

00:04:57   - Oh man, I can't even listen to those anymore.

00:04:59   - What, Build and Analyze?

00:05:00   - Yeah, I'm very critical of my own past work.

00:05:04   Build and Analyze was the first time

00:05:05   I ever did any kind of podcasting.

00:05:07   I didn't have a show before that anywhere.

00:05:09   So I mean, as much as I am aware of my own flaws today,

00:05:14   especially since I edit the show.

00:05:16   So I rehear my own flaws over and over again.

00:05:19   The old ones are even worse in every possible way.

00:05:21   Like, 'cause I was so new at it,

00:05:24   a lot of my personal flaws were more audible

00:05:28   or more frequent than they are now.

00:05:30   And I know, and most listeners probably don't notice

00:05:33   and don't care, but I notice,

00:05:35   and it makes it very hard for me to listen to it.

00:05:37   Plus I was just an idiot.

00:05:39   - What do you mean was?

00:05:40   - Right, exactly.

00:05:41   (laughing)

00:05:43   - Aye yai yai.

00:05:44   - Well, shouldn't one of us explain

00:05:46   like what's going on with Casey

00:05:48   for the people who don't follow us on Twitter?

00:05:50   - Jon, you are in charge of explaining things.

00:05:52   - No, Casey's in charge of explaining things.

00:05:54   That was Casey's cue.

00:05:55   He didn't lose his job.

00:05:58   His job is still the explaining things guy.

00:06:00   - The explaining things guy, right.

00:06:02   So Aaron and I have finally, or really Aaron,

00:06:05   has delivered our little baby boy.

00:06:07   We had referred to him as Sprout during her pregnancy

00:06:12   because we didn't have a name,

00:06:14   Even after he was born, we didn't have a name.

00:06:16   We had narrowed it down to a couple,

00:06:18   and we weren't really sure which one we were gonna use.

00:06:21   And so he was due on the 6th of November.

00:06:26   We're recording this on Halloween because we're nerds

00:06:30   and don't go out to parties, I guess.

00:06:32   We had him, or she had him Wednesday morning

00:06:35   at 5.30 in the morning.

00:06:36   He was eight pounds, six ounces, 20 inches long.

00:06:39   Every nurse that came to visit us said,

00:06:41   "Ooh, he's a big boy,"

00:06:43   It's like Aaron's yo thinking to herself. Oh, so what does that mean?

00:06:47   But in any case his name is Declan James lists. We are extraordinarily overjoyed to have him and

00:06:54   I I

00:06:57   Cannot even begin to put into words

00:07:00   how

00:07:03   Unbelievable it is to see this little thing that we created

00:07:08   especially after it took us so darn long to get him here.

00:07:12   And we'll put a link in the show notes about that

00:07:14   to explain that.

00:07:15   But suffice to say, it took us about three years to conceive.

00:07:18   And so to actually have Declan in your hands,

00:07:23   it's just the most amazing thing in the world.

00:07:25   He finally came out and I pretty much went fetal.

00:07:30   Not literally, but pretty close.

00:07:32   And so the two of us were balling.

00:07:35   I'm sure this is the same for everyone,

00:07:37   But yeah, we were a wreck, we were an absolute wreck.

00:07:41   But he is healthy, she is healthy, we're all adjusting.

00:07:45   We got home from the hospital earlier today

00:07:48   and so because I'm a masochist, I wanted to record

00:07:51   and get this out of the way so I'm not stressing

00:07:54   about how I'm holding up the works.

00:07:56   And we actually slept okay the last couple days.

00:07:58   We had the hospital nursery take him during the night

00:08:02   and then bring him in whenever he wanted food

00:08:03   So we didn't have them give him a formula or anything

00:08:08   because we're trying to breastfeed.

00:08:09   And so we slept reasonably well.

00:08:12   Ask me tomorrow morning how that works out

00:08:14   now that we're at home.

00:08:15   (laughing)

00:08:17   But life is excellent.

00:08:18   Life is super good.

00:08:19   I'm super, super thankful, super appreciative.

00:08:22   I don't know what to do.

00:08:24   I'm freaking out.

00:08:25   And I mean that in the best possible way.

00:08:28   - Oh, so this is your first,

00:08:29   you haven't even had your first night home yet?

00:08:31   - Correct.

00:08:32   - Oh, tonight's the first, oh.

00:08:33   boy. Well, congratulations, first of all, before you, before you encounter tonight,

00:08:39   let's keep this happy. So big congratulations, really. We couldn't be happy for you. I mean,

00:08:45   happy for you. I mean, even John, like, you know, the listeners might not know how much John loves

00:08:49   kids. This is true. This is not a lie. And like, you know, when John is presented with a child,

00:08:55   he basically gets like giddy and is extremely awesome with the kid and loves the kid.

00:09:00   Let's not oversell it here.

00:09:02   No, that's true.

00:09:02   That's absolutely true.

00:09:03   I like cute kids and kids that are nice.

00:09:05   And so I'm not one of those people who just loves kids

00:09:08   all the time.

00:09:09   But once you have your own kids, the fear of children

00:09:11   goes away.

00:09:12   So you don't feel like you're going

00:09:14   to break them or whatever.

00:09:15   And then when you see anybody else's kid, especially

00:09:19   a kid of someone who you're familiar with,

00:09:21   or you feel like you ought to be able to play with them just

00:09:23   like they're your kid.

00:09:24   But you can't.

00:09:25   Because so that's why every time I see a little Adam,

00:09:27   which is Marco's son, I want to pick him up.

00:09:29   And I do.

00:09:29   and he cries and then I give him back, which is terrible,

00:09:32   but you just feel like--

00:09:34   - In all fairness, he cries whenever anybody picks him up,

00:09:37   including us.

00:09:37   - Yeah, he's not a picking up kind of child,

00:09:39   but I do that to children all the time.

00:09:41   Like, you just wanna pick him up and play with them,

00:09:42   and especially when they're little like that,

00:09:44   especially now my kids are getting so big

00:09:46   that it's hard to carry them around, even though I still do.

00:09:49   But you see those little pint-sized kids,

00:09:51   like there were two or three, you just wanna scoop 'em up.

00:09:53   - Yeah, seriously, imagine like an 80-year-old grandma,

00:09:59   her reaction to a little baby and that's John's.

00:10:02   And I mean that complimentary, in a complimentary way.

00:10:04   I don't mean that in a nasty way at all.

00:10:06   - John is an 80 year old grandma, noted.

00:10:08   - So his eyes just get all super bright and shiny

00:10:11   and it's, "Oh, there's a little baby, oh my God."

00:10:13   - Yeah, I can verify that is not an exaggeration.

00:10:15   John will deny this, but that actually is how excited he is.

00:10:19   - That's the same reaction to dogs, to be fair.

00:10:21   (both laughing)

00:10:24   - Oh man, so yeah.

00:10:25   So I don't know what we're talking about tonight.

00:10:27   I'm probably gonna start snoring even though I just told you I'm not tired, just in general,

00:10:32   but…

00:10:33   Have fun tomorrow.

00:10:34   Yeah, his adrenaline will carry him for a couple more days.

00:10:36   Yeah.

00:10:37   No, but the—I mean, for us at least, like, the first night was a transition, certainly,

00:10:43   because it's—you know, it's the first time where there is no one else to take the

00:10:47   baby to let you sleep.

00:10:48   That's Casey's job.

00:10:49   He takes the baby.

00:10:50   Let his wife sleep.

00:10:51   Well, but Casey can't feed the baby yet, so it's…

00:10:53   I know, that's why his job is to take the baby so she can sleep.

00:10:56   Well, yeah, okay, but it depends on why the baby's waking up.

00:10:59   Right, exactly.

00:11:00   So, yeah, I mean, at this point, you know, this is like, you know, Casey just needs to

00:11:04   try to be as useful and supportive as possible, but there he's, at this point, you're relegated

00:11:08   to a few not very useful tasks because like you just, you can't like most of the time

00:11:14   the baby wakes up, it's going to be to feed.

00:11:16   There's not much you can do yet to help out, you know, except just be supportive.

00:11:20   Well, you're ahead of the game if the baby is waking up because that means the baby slept

00:11:24   at some point.

00:11:25   That's true.

00:11:26   You know, it's funny. I feel like Declan's setting us up for the, well, relatively long

00:11:32   troll. Actually, given that he's two days old, it's an extremely long troll because

00:11:36   we're talking about 80% of his life. But anyway, he's actually been very sleepy for

00:11:39   the most part. And so, I'm getting used to a baby that actually sleeps quite a bit

00:11:45   and we almost have to wake him up to feed him a lot of the time. And I bet you anything

00:11:50   that that's just like the, "Oh, I'm new and you worked so hard for me and I'm gonna make

00:11:57   you think I'm nice." And then in the next day or two, perhaps tonight, "I'm an asshole

00:12:02   and I'm waking up all the time."

00:12:03   **Matt Stauffer** Very newborn babies sometimes are sleepier

00:12:07   than you would expect and they sort of come to life in the next few days, right? But if

00:12:11   you had a baby who was a really bad slaver, you'd probably know it by now. Anyway, you'll

00:12:15   out. You can talk to us all tomorrow. But so far, it sounds like everything is average.

00:12:23   Everything is going the way it's supposed to. I think you're doing fine.

00:12:26   Yeah, I mean, next Wednesday night will come really soon. You will be surprised how, when

00:12:34   we have to record our next episode, it's going to just spring and you're like, "Oh

00:12:36   my God, it's time for that already?"

00:12:38   So are you going back to work, speaking of?

00:12:41   No, I actually was going to share that just because I figured we'd get questions.

00:12:45   So my work gives me a week of paternity leave and then I've saved up two weeks of vacation

00:12:51   on top of that.

00:12:52   So what I think I'm going to do is, without a shadow of a doubt, I'm taking off all

00:12:55   next week.

00:12:56   I think I'm probably going to take off the week after, maybe, maybe go back one day,

00:13:03   but I doubt it.

00:13:04   But the third week, I'm thinking I might actually stretch that and do maybe like a

00:13:08   a two or three day week that third week,

00:13:11   two or three day week of work that is, that third week,

00:13:14   and then take another couple days the following week

00:13:16   and kind of ease myself back into it.

00:13:18   We'll see.

00:13:19   - And so you've got grandparents helping you out and stuff?

00:13:22   - Yeah, so Aaron's parents are both in Richmond

00:13:26   and are super helpful.

00:13:27   I mean, Aaron's one of five kids,

00:13:28   so they've been around the block a couple times.

00:13:31   And my parents are retired, which is also super helpful

00:13:35   because Aaron's parents are not.

00:13:37   and they live outside Charlottesville about 45 minutes away.

00:13:40   So the good news is during the weekdays,

00:13:42   I can easily guilt my parents into coming down to help

00:13:47   and then on the evenings and weekends,

00:13:49   I can have Aaron's parents help.

00:13:51   And this is the first grandchild on both sides,

00:13:54   so he's going to be spoiled as hell no matter what I do.

00:13:59   - Oh yeah.

00:14:00   Now, did you, was it difficult to pick a name

00:14:03   to try to avoid lisp puns?

00:14:05   - Yes, and so actually it's funny you say that

00:14:08   because the way we came upon the name was

00:14:11   my two siblings are Adam and Brady,

00:14:14   then Casey, then blank, and then Aaron

00:14:17   because it's A, B, C, something, E.

00:14:20   And so we were so daunted by how to pick a name

00:14:25   that we needed some really ridiculous yet useful way

00:14:28   of narrowing it down.

00:14:30   And so I eliminated, I think it was me,

00:14:31   maybe it was both of us,

00:14:32   but I eliminated 25 letters of the alphabet by saying no,

00:14:35   We're going to start with D because A, B, C, D, E, and that's just kind of cutesy and

00:14:39   I think it's cool.

00:14:40   So then it was, well, what the crap?

00:14:43   Because you can't use, I mean Richard isn't our name, but you couldn't use Dick because

00:14:47   Dickless doesn't work.

00:14:49   And you couldn't use a whole bunch of other names.

00:14:50   And actually one of the things I've been worried about is I hope I didn't set Declan up for

00:14:55   a really awful like second through eighth grade stretch by Declan turning into Dec,

00:15:03   into Dick, now he's ha ha dickless. We'll see.

00:15:06   There's going to be seven other Declan's in his class, so don't worry about it.

00:15:09   I hope not. That's actually one of the other names we were really considering, which I'm

00:15:12   not going to share because I don't want to have half the internet say to me, "Oh, you

00:15:15   should use the other name." But one of the ones we considered, we felt we eliminated

00:15:21   because it's become super popular these days. And I am not 100% convinced that Declan isn't

00:15:27   also applicable in that category, but we—

00:15:29   It's pretty popular.

00:15:30   Well, whatever. We're committed now.

00:15:34   It's all right. I mean, they're popular because other people name their kids that. It's just

00:15:38   the way it goes. Not everyone can be named Marco.

00:15:40   Well, and to be fair, having a really unusual name in school is not necessarily a social

00:15:46   advantage, believe me.

00:15:47   Yeah. There's like three or four other Johns in my class. I mean, all the girls were named

00:15:51   Jennifer. It works out fine. So, my secret headcanon, as they call it, for Declan is

00:15:56   DeLorean plus McLaren equals Declan. It's a car theme.

00:16:00   Yeah, it's funny because my little brother-in-law who thinks he's like the king of movie trivia

00:16:07   and really isn't, I'm actually much better at movie trivia than he is. So that should

00:16:11   give you a rough estimate as to where he stands in this whole category. But anyway, he reminded

00:16:16   me that Richard Gere's character in the movie The Jackal was named Declan, which I'd

00:16:21   completely forgotten about. And it's actually my memory of the movie, although I haven't

00:16:25   it in 10, 15 years, is that it was a pretty good movie, all told. And I think Jack Black

00:16:30   was in it in like a semi-serious role, if memory serves. So, yep. I don't know. So,

00:16:36   yeah, it's amazing. It's the most amazing thing in the world. And it's weird because

00:16:39   I—and you were kind of alluding to this, Jon—I never liked carrying babies. I mean,

00:16:44   I think I picked Marco up—


00:16:46   JONATHAN GRUBER (OFFSCREEN): I picked Adam up.

00:16:47   JONATHAN GRUBER (OFFSCREEN): He's very small.


00:16:49   JONATHAN GRUBER (OFFSCREEN): You just cradle him in your arm. You just want to put him

00:16:51   I'll put him in a little pocket.

00:16:52   - Yep, well, he's so weensy.

00:16:55   But anyway, no, I picked Adam up a couple times, I think,

00:16:57   but every time I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm gonna drop him.

00:16:59   "Oh my God, I'm gonna drop him.

00:16:59   "Oh my God, I'm gonna drop him."

00:17:01   And when it's your own kid, or at least in my experience,

00:17:04   all of that, it just goes away,

00:17:06   and it's just, this is what I have to do.

00:17:08   And it sounds so cliche and silly,

00:17:10   but it really is the way it was.

00:17:12   And I'm so much more confident making decisions about him.

00:17:16   Not to say it's all on me.

00:17:17   Of course, Aaron's really doing all the work,

00:17:19   and I'm just taking credit for it.

00:17:20   But, you know, figuring out, oh, is he got a poopy diaper?

00:17:23   Is he sleepy?

00:17:24   Whatever the case may be.

00:17:26   It comes so much more naturally once you're there.

00:17:30   And I still can't even really believe I'm a dad.

00:17:32   Like, that's the most wild thing in the world.

00:17:35   - Yeah, I'm so happy for you to see you going through this,

00:17:39   to see you enjoying all of this.

00:17:41   I'm just so happy for you and Aaron.

00:17:42   And I think the entire internet is happy for you and Aaron.

00:17:44   - Yeah, I really appreciate it.

00:17:45   And actually, the outpouring has been

00:17:47   absolutely ridiculous.

00:17:48   and I cannot thank everyone enough.

00:17:51   If you happen to listen to my other show, Analog,

00:17:53   you'll know that I'm trying to come to terms

00:17:55   with not replying or favoriting everything under the sun,

00:17:57   and so I haven't done that,

00:17:59   and I will continue to not do that.

00:18:01   But it's been absolutely incredible, all the support,

00:18:04   and I know I speak for Aaron in saying

00:18:06   I really appreciate it.

00:18:07   - Well, and I think anybody who has any sense whatsoever,

00:18:11   especially anybody who was a parent,

00:18:13   will totally understand if you don't necessarily have time

00:18:16   to respond to every single outpouring message

00:18:19   of tweet and email right now,

00:18:21   literally two days after you've had a baby.

00:18:23   - You got two things going for you with this baby.

00:18:27   The first one is, I've already forgot the list.

00:18:30   (laughing)

00:18:32   - I thought I was the sleep deprived one.

00:18:33   - I'm a little sleep deprived too.

00:18:36   So since you tried so hard to have this baby,

00:18:37   like 'cause you had difficulty again,

00:18:39   we'll put the link in the show notes,

00:18:40   you will just appreciate it more

00:18:43   than people who didn't have a problem, right?

00:18:45   And that appreciation will carry you through the hard times.

00:18:49   Like that'll give you a little rocket boost

00:18:52   for when it's difficult,

00:18:53   because you'll always have that kind of

00:18:54   in the back of your mind,

00:18:55   but like how hard you worked for this

00:18:57   and how much you wanted it or whatever.

00:18:58   And I think that really will help.

00:19:00   - Yeah, I think the same thing.

00:19:01   - And the second thing is like,

00:19:03   now you are being indoctrinated into the secret club

00:19:07   of people who know how difficult it is to be a parent.

00:19:09   And you will now face the struggle that all of us face,

00:19:12   which is do not lord it over other people,

00:19:14   because that's obnoxious.

00:19:15   (laughs)

00:19:16   - I know.

00:19:17   Actually, it's funny you say that

00:19:18   because a lot of our friends have already had kids.

00:19:21   And so we always tried, Eric and I,

00:19:23   to be very understanding when somebody would have to cancel

00:19:27   at the last minute or if somebody was really particular

00:19:31   about, oh, I can't do that because it's nap time

00:19:33   or because it's within three hours of nap time or whatever.

00:19:35   And so I never understood it,

00:19:38   but we tried to be understanding of it.

00:19:40   And what I'm really curious to see

00:19:42   is how often we play those cards

00:19:44   now that they're in our deck.

00:19:46   Oh, well, we just can't do that

00:19:48   because Declan's gonna nap sometime between now

00:19:51   and three days from now.

00:19:51   So no, we can't, I'm sorry.

00:19:53   - Sometimes it's a card and sometimes it's the truth,

00:19:55   and that's the beauty of it,

00:19:56   is that the other person doesn't know.

00:19:58   - Yep.

00:19:59   - Yeah, usually I think it's the truth.

00:20:01   I mean, at least for us it is.

00:20:03   - Or the truth may be I haven't showered in three days.

00:20:06   - Right.

00:20:07   - And there's no way I can leave the house.

00:20:08   - No, but soon you will know firsthand

00:20:12   Like, you know, if when, when, you know,

00:20:14   somebody who doesn't really know about, you know,

00:20:17   how kids, how life with kids works,

00:20:19   they will be really surprised when you tell them

00:20:22   that you really can't go and meet them for dinner,

00:20:25   you know, a half hour away on a random weeknight,

00:20:29   you know, out of the blue for fun.

00:20:31   And it's like, really? No, like that's,

00:20:34   like, you'll see, like the assumptions that,

00:20:38   that people make before their parents about the life

00:20:41   of being a parent, if they even think about it,

00:20:45   just by nature of it being such a huge change in life,

00:20:49   the assumptions people make about how it is

00:20:52   usually are pretty far off.

00:20:54   You're not choosing to reject certain social events

00:20:59   and not go out to certain things.

00:21:01   You're not rejecting that because you wanna be uptight.

00:21:04   You're rejecting it because you actually would prefer

00:21:07   doing things your normal way to going out

00:21:10   because the consequences of going out are worse

00:21:13   and it's not worth it, if that makes any sense at all.

00:21:16   - Yeah, yeah, definitely.

00:21:17   And it's funny the things that I made,

00:21:20   I don't know if I should say I made declarations about,

00:21:25   but for example, the nursery in the house is,

00:21:30   I don't know, 10, 15 paces away from where our bedroom is.

00:21:34   And Aaron and I kept saying to each other,

00:21:36   the first thing we would say is,

00:21:38   well, you know, I think we're going to keep him in the nursery from the get-go.

00:21:41   So he doesn't get too attached to some really, you know, get this idea that he's

00:21:45   always going to be next to us, blah, blah, blah.

00:21:47   And the next thing we would say leading up to tonight was.

00:21:52   But we'll see what happens.

00:21:53   And when we started talking briefly about what the sleeping arrangements

00:21:57   were tonight, the first thing I asked was, can we easily get the pack and play

00:22:01   upstairs?

00:22:02   The second thing I asked was, well, actually, why don't we just drop the

00:22:05   Casper into Declan's room and we can just leave it there. So we're already, all these

00:22:10   promises we made to ourselves like, "Oh, we're going to go out to dinner in the first

00:22:13   month." Pretty much all bets are off already and we've had them for two days.

00:22:16   Yeah, no plan survives contact with the baby.

00:22:20   It's so true. But anyway, so yeah, thank you everyone, you guys especially, but everyone

00:22:27   for being so supportive, for being so interested or at least feigning interest in a way that

00:22:32   I don't realize you're full of it. So it's been a wild ride. It's going to continue

00:22:36   to be a wild ride. I'm sure you guys will periodically ask if for no other reason than

00:22:41   to laugh about what we're going through. And then I will get hopefully some amount

00:22:46   of pleasure into hearing you tell the stories of Arment Baby #2, which come to think of

00:22:53   it, I don't think we talked about. So congratulations to you as well.

00:22:56   Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that's happening in the spring, but tonight's about you.

00:23:00   We'll leave that for later.

00:23:01   Well, tonight is about other things too, so we should probably do the follow-up.

00:23:04   All right, it's also, though, about Hover for this next two minutes or so.

00:23:09   Hover is the best way—sorry, "Hovah" is the best way to buy Manix domain names.

00:23:15   Hover is a domain registrar that doesn't suck, basically.

00:23:18   That's my slogan, not theirs, but I think they should really take it.

00:23:21   When you're looking for a name for your project or you want a name for yourself or for funny purposes,

00:23:29   Generally speaking, you go to a domain manager store,

00:23:32   you search for what you need, you browse the list,

00:23:34   you find something, anything that is available,

00:23:37   which is increasingly difficult unless you go

00:23:39   to one of the crazy new TLDs.

00:23:40   And then you go through some kind of horrible shopping cart

00:23:43   where you got to say no to a bunch of add-on services,

00:23:46   and you got to uncheck the box that says please spam me,

00:23:50   and check the box that says please don't spam me,

00:23:53   and try to figure out exactly their wording there

00:23:55   and everything, and then uncheck a bunch

00:23:57   of recurring annual subscriptions

00:23:59   of things that sound really vague

00:24:01   that no one should say no to.

00:24:02   Like, I would like the freedom package, please.

00:24:05   Oh, that's $75 a year, but what does that do?

00:24:07   All this crazy stuff that so many registrars do.

00:24:10   Hover entered this market

00:24:11   to basically be the opposite of that.

00:24:13   So Hover is run by people who like other people,

00:24:17   who don't want to hurt them and annoy them.

00:24:19   And it's just run by good people.

00:24:22   It is a domain registrar that respects people.

00:24:24   So if you go to check out, you go to Hover,

00:24:27   It's a nicely designed site.

00:24:28   You search for what you want.

00:24:29   The search is extremely good.

00:24:31   It's fast, it searches all the crazy TLDs,

00:24:34   and it shows you everything available.

00:24:35   It does some language parsing a bit

00:24:37   so that if they don't have quite what you want,

00:24:40   it can kind of show alternate wordings

00:24:42   or slight variations that might be available.

00:24:45   You go to buy something and you check out and you're done.

00:24:49   There is no crazy add-on step.

00:24:51   There's no crazy upselling.

00:24:52   There's no crazy cross-promotional crap.

00:24:54   You just buy the name, you pay for it easily,

00:24:57   and you have it.

00:24:58   And they do offer some add-on services that are paid,

00:25:00   things like email hosting and stuff like that.

00:25:02   But for the most part, they give you a lot for free.

00:25:05   Every domain comes with free domain privacy,

00:25:07   all sorts of DNS tools and everything, everything you need.

00:25:10   They also have a really good valet transfer service,

00:25:13   where you can transfer names.

00:25:15   If you want to transfer names from another registrar to Hover,

00:25:18   if you want, you can have them do it for you.

00:25:20   You give them the login to your old registrar,

00:25:22   and they will do the transfers for you

00:25:24   for any number of domains.

00:25:25   If you have 100 domains, they'll still do it for you.

00:25:28   It's really great,

00:25:29   and it's no additional charge for that service.

00:25:31   If you need support, they have, you know,

00:25:33   of course the usual online support,

00:25:34   but they also have phone support during business hours.

00:25:37   You can just call them and they have a no hold, no wait,

00:25:40   no transfer phone policy.

00:25:42   So you call them up and a human being answers the phone

00:25:45   and that human being is able to help you.

00:25:48   I really can't recommend them enough.

00:25:50   Their prices are also really good.

00:25:51   They just lowered prices on a bunch of stuff,

00:25:53   but they were already good even before that.

00:25:55   Anyway, go to hover.com, H-O-V-E-R,

00:25:58   for anybody who doesn't know how to pronounce this word,

00:26:00   like the British.

00:26:01   Go to hover.com and enter offer code congratulationscasey

00:26:06   to get 10% off your first order.

00:26:08   Once again, go to hover.com or hovah.com,

00:26:11   depending on how you pronounce it,

00:26:12   and enter promo code congratulationscasey.

00:26:15   All one word.

00:26:16   I know it's very long.

00:26:17   But anyway, that's it.

00:26:18   Congratulations, Casey.

00:26:20   Thanks a lot to Hover for sponsoring the show.

00:26:22   So a quick story related to Hover.

00:26:24   I know that that was a little bit of a read, but I think this is worth sharing.

00:26:28   When I told Marco and John that Declan was born, all was well.

00:26:32   Yeah, we exchanged a few messages about that.

00:26:36   And then I believe it was Marco said to me, all right, here's what you need to do.

00:26:39   You need to buy DeclanLists.com and you need to get the DeclanLists Twitter handle

00:26:44   immediately before anyone else does.

00:26:46   And so I'm sitting in the hospital on the hospital wifi doing exactly that.

00:26:50   And Marco, would you like to guess where I registered DeclanLists.com?

00:26:53   GoDaddy? No, it was at Hova. Oh, wait, was it Hova or was it Hover? Actually, it was

00:27:01   Hover. I'm just being silly. You're infecting Casey with your inability to pronounce that

00:27:05   the British way. He's imitating you instead of trying to do it the British way. That's

00:27:10   true, that's true. Yeah, yeah. All right, so Marco, speaking of things that you're

00:27:14   either creating or buying, what's the story with your iMac Retina 5K, whatever, whatever?

00:27:21   The business rep ordering system is apparently not that reliable.

00:27:25   So I have between zero and three of them arriving.

00:27:28   I've only gotten ship notices for two, which is the correct number that we ordered.

00:27:33   So we will see how many arrive.

00:27:35   I've been charged for three, but I think I'm going to get refunded automatically.

00:27:38   It's a weird situation.

00:27:40   Anyway, they're on a boat or a plane.

00:27:43   Yeah, probably a plane.

00:27:44   I think a boat might be too slow.

00:27:45   So yeah, I'm pretty sure they're on a plane between Japan and Alaska right now.

00:27:49   We gotta drop in a clip of the Lonely Island song,

00:27:53   which you don't even know what that is.

00:27:55   In fact, I'd be surprised if Jon knows what that is.

00:27:58   - Nope.

00:27:58   - Is that Adam Sandberg thing?

00:28:00   - Yeah, good job, Jon.

00:28:02   I'm proud of you.

00:28:02   ♪ I'm on the phone ♪

00:28:03   ♪ I'm on the phone ♪

00:28:05   - Could you go?

00:28:06   - Yeah, I was gonna, too, Ed,

00:28:07   you already jumped into the follow-up,

00:28:08   'cause I was all ready to segue from baby talk

00:28:11   to the first item in the actual follow-up here.

00:28:13   - Well, what was the first, did I skip one?

00:28:15   - Yeah, so we're saying in the same way

00:28:16   that Casey has bonded to his child,

00:28:18   It turns out that the glass on the iMac 5K is laminated.

00:28:24   And what is this?

00:28:25   This is follow-up from a different podcast.

00:28:26   I was on the talk show recently.

00:28:28   I'm pretty sure I said this on the talk show.

00:28:30   Gruber and I were talking on the talk show about the iMac screen and talking about how

00:28:34   it wasn't laminated, but it totally is.

00:28:37   I was thinking of the Thunderbolt display, which is the same size, but in typical Apple

00:28:41   fashion.

00:28:42   They updated the iMacs to have the nice laminated screen, but did not update the Thunderbolt

00:28:47   or at least not the one I have anyway.

00:28:49   - No, you're right, and that also is not that recent.

00:28:51   They updated the iMacs to have the laminated

00:28:55   and lower glare screens like two years ago.

00:28:57   - Yeah, yeah, so anyway, iMac 5K, the screen is laminated.

00:29:00   There you go.

00:29:03   Does that show still don't have follow-up?

00:29:04   We have to do it here, what can I tell you?

00:29:06   - You know, for what it's worth,

00:29:07   that episode with you and Jon Gruber is really, really good.

00:29:11   I really enjoy the talk show always,

00:29:13   But some of the guests are just always,

00:29:17   without question, just amazing.

00:29:19   And having the two Johns together, always a good time,

00:29:22   always worth the listen, even though you guys ramble on

00:29:24   even longer than we do sometimes.

00:29:26   - Yeah, I'm also, I listen to every episode of the talk show

00:29:29   and I gotta say, John, your episodes, I think,

00:29:32   are consistently my best, my favorites.

00:29:35   - Your best. (laughs)

00:29:36   - We just need to get some,

00:29:37   you just need to get like smart speed for Gruber though,

00:29:39   'cause then the shows will be shorter.

00:29:41   In fact, the one you did with Gruber a long time ago,

00:29:45   that was one of my top three test files.

00:29:48   Like when I was making Smart Speed,

00:29:50   that was what played most of the time.

00:29:53   It was the one where you open up saying,

00:29:54   "You know what I had to do to get here?"

00:29:55   - That was a good imitation of my voice.

00:29:57   - Yeah, yeah, thanks.

00:29:58   (chimes)

00:29:59   - You know what I had to do to get this to happen?

00:30:02   - What'd you have to do?

00:30:03   - Reboot into my Super Duper clone.

00:30:05   (chimes)

00:30:07   - Oh my God.

00:30:07   All right, so we also got a lot of feedback.

00:30:11   myself especially, but we all got it,

00:30:13   about the AT&T Unlimited plan,

00:30:14   because I believe it was on this show

00:30:16   that I talked about how I still have

00:30:19   the grandfathered AT&T Unlimited plan,

00:30:22   and I don't remember if you guys had said,

00:30:24   "Oh, that's crazy," or if the chat room had said,

00:30:26   "Oh, that's crazy," but somebody did,

00:30:28   and look who's smart now, because as it turns out,

00:30:32   the FCC has said, "You know what, AT&T?

00:30:35   "If you're gonna make it unlimited

00:30:36   "and then severely throttle after three or five gigs of data,

00:30:40   I don't remember what it is.

00:30:41   Well, screw you, we're gonna sue you.

00:30:43   And gosh, only knows if anything will come of it,

00:30:46   probably not, but I do for this small stretch of time

00:30:50   until this lawsuit is concluded,

00:30:52   I get to feel smug about it, so that's really exciting.

00:30:55   - Yeah, and I think ultimately,

00:30:57   the most likely outcome of this

00:30:58   is either nothing will change

00:30:59   or they will just end those plans.

00:31:01   - Probably.

00:31:02   - There's nothing, they are not obligated

00:31:03   to keep offering that plan every month.

00:31:05   They're doing it, they chose to grandfather people in

00:31:08   and let them continue indefinitely,

00:31:10   presumably 'cause they figured it would do less harm

00:31:13   that way to their reputation

00:31:15   and to their customer relationships.

00:31:17   But if it comes down to offering real,

00:31:19   unthrottled, unlimited, like BackPlease,

00:31:22   which is our second sponsor, but anyway,

00:31:23   when it comes down to real, unthrottled, unlimited speeds,

00:31:26   they're not gonna offer that.

00:31:28   They'll just end these plans.

00:31:30   - Yeah, but like I said, for a brief moment in time,

00:31:33   I can feel smug.

00:31:34   So, Jon, tell us about ECC RAM, please.

00:31:38   I think I mentioned that when we were talking about whether I would want an iMac and how

00:31:41   I still feel better about having server class components, and in particular ECC RAM, because

00:31:46   we have just so much RAM these days, and the error rates of RAM have not decreased at the

00:31:53   same rate that capacity has increased, and so the more RAM you get, the more likely you're

00:31:57   going to have these 1-bit errors, and that's what, you know, error-correcting memory helps

00:32:01   to prove that reliability.

00:32:03   And I was like, well, maybe it's just all in my head, like, that I think I'm getting

00:32:07   fewer -- and Margot had said the same thing -- getting fewer kernel panics because ECC

00:32:11   memory is helping or whatever, you know, who knows?

00:32:14   But a couple people sent me this blog post, I think I got this link from Scott Ziegler

00:32:18   originally.

00:32:19   It's James Hamilton's blog, and he works, I think, in the data centers for Amazon, so,

00:32:24   you know, kind of like those Google people.

00:32:26   All those people who have fleets of hardware, or like, you know, for example, Backblaze

00:32:29   giving hard drive reliability numbers.

00:32:31   You can get some good data if you just have a tremendous amount of hardware, and then

00:32:34   just start tracking everything and showing the stats on it.

00:32:39   And so I'll put the link in the show

00:32:40   so people can read it and decide.

00:32:42   The numbers are still small.

00:32:45   How many errors do you get in RAM?

00:32:46   How much data do you have to shove in and out of RAM

00:32:49   before you get any errors?

00:32:51   But even one error bothers me.

00:32:52   And so ECC RAM is not that expensive.

00:32:56   The main problem is that Intel, I think,

00:32:58   still only puts controllers and everything for it

00:33:01   in their more expensive chipsets.

00:33:03   but inherently there's nothing about it that makes it so that it wouldn't be economically

00:33:08   feasible to put in cheaper stuff if Intel just didn't, you know, sort of segment their

00:33:12   line according to this quote-unquote "enterprise" feature. But anyway, I thought it was interesting.

00:33:17   It makes me feel slightly more justified in my still probably irrational and unfounded

00:33:23   belief that ECC RAM is something that I need in my life.

00:33:27   - Yeah, I mean, ECC RAM, like, you know, if,

00:33:29   like I've said this before, like I have always kind of felt

00:33:32   that Mac Pros were more reliable than the other Macs.

00:33:36   I have never owned an iMac, TIFF did for a while,

00:33:38   so we had one in our house, but I've never actually owned

00:33:42   an iMac and use it full-time myself.

00:33:44   But I have had a lot of laptops,

00:33:47   a lot of the Apple laptops, and they always just kind of

00:33:49   feel like, you know, there's always like occasional

00:33:54   kernel panics are occasional failures to wake from sleep

00:33:58   and everything, and Mac Pros, I've never seen

00:34:01   that kind of problem before.

00:34:03   I'd not say I've never had a kernel panic,

00:34:04   but they've been much more rare,

00:34:07   on the order of maybe zero to one a year,

00:34:12   whereas on the laptops, it was more like one to three

00:34:15   a year, so we're not talking big numbers here,

00:34:18   but it's enough that it matters

00:34:19   if you're doing something really important

00:34:20   or if they cause you to lose data.

00:34:23   But all that being said, I don't know

00:34:25   because I haven't had a non Mac Pro Apple desktop before.

00:34:29   I don't know how much of that is just because they're laptops.

00:34:32   Like the power management stuff, transitioning it

00:34:35   to and from sleep and everything,

00:34:36   that's something that a laptop has

00:34:37   to go through much more than a desktop.

00:34:39   And there's different thermal boundaries

00:34:42   and different thermal limits and stuff like that in a laptop

00:34:45   and different component tolerances and a lot of things.

00:34:47   And granted, all of Apple's desktops, except the Mac Pro,

00:34:52   use a lot of laptop components.

00:34:54   Like the Mac Mini and the iMac,

00:34:56   they're both full of laptop components.

00:34:57   The low ends of each of those,

00:34:58   the 1.4 gigahertz crappy models,

00:35:00   are just MacBook Airs, really.

00:35:02   And so it is a lot of the same components now,

00:35:06   between laptops and desktops.

00:35:07   So I don't know, I guess, ask me in a year,

00:35:11   how much of a problem this ends up being.

00:35:14   I'm guessing it's going to be probably not enough

00:35:17   to change which one you're using, just for that reason.

00:35:22   It's so hard to pinpoint the cause of those things, though.

00:35:24   Because it could be software.

00:35:27   That's why this article, "Isolate,"

00:35:29   but it gives people an idea of what

00:35:31   could be a tributal DCC RAM.

00:35:33   Just to give a little summary of it,

00:35:34   in this big measure of all these machines,

00:35:37   it said about a third of their machines

00:35:39   had at least one correctable RAM error per year.

00:35:43   So they're not big numbers.

00:35:47   It's not the difference between constantly crashing and not--

00:35:50   I imagine most of the problems I actually have with laptops and other things have to

00:35:53   do with software bugs and components that are put under more stress because there's

00:36:03   more heat involved and there's just more stuff in there.

00:36:06   You know, in the past when you'd get a desktop map it wouldn't even have Wi-Fi, for example,

00:36:10   but these all have Wi-Fi and Bluetooth and everything.

00:36:13   My Mac Pro does not, so it has Bluetooth, I think.

00:36:16   But anyway, it's so hard to know what to attribute these errors to, but I know that my Mac Pro

00:36:20   has been reliable and that's why I'm sort of got this voodoo about I would

00:36:24   like something in a similar class going forward it would just make me feel

00:36:28   better so Marco are you planning on getting rid of your trash can if the 5k

00:36:34   or all three of your 5k is ever show up what's the intention there yeah I'm gonna

00:36:39   sell it I mean it would be really stupid not to I mean it would you know because

00:36:44   I I have no use for a for like a big expensive desktop Mac that I'm not using

00:36:50   I've been thinking about maybe getting a Mac Mini for a backup server kind of needs,

00:36:54   and by the way, every time I try to configure, I try to price out a Mac Mini in Apple Store,

00:36:59   it always just makes me angry.

00:37:01   Because it's like, here's this computer that's $500, but only if you get a terrible

00:37:05   one.

00:37:07   If you get a Mac Mini worth owning, it's $1,000.

00:37:10   And it's like, oh, well, at this point, should I be looking at a MacBook Air?

00:37:14   It's so nicely designed to push you up the line.

00:37:19   and the new Mac Minis have even less upgradable

00:37:22   than the previous ones.

00:37:23   You can no longer upgrade the RAM.

00:37:25   It's now soldered onto the board

00:37:26   and the disks are very hard to get to

00:37:30   and you can't get an SSD with the low end CPU.

00:37:34   You have to go to the high end CPU.

00:37:36   It's just, there's so many little restrictions in place

00:37:39   to make sure that if you get a Mac Mini for less than $900,

00:37:41   it's gonna be a total piece of crap.

00:37:43   But that aside, I mean, this Mac Pro

00:37:46   is probably still worth a few thousand dollars at least

00:37:48   And so it would be stupid of me to keep this around

00:37:52   for file serving tasks.

00:37:54   I mean, I'd be better off selling it

00:37:56   and taking a third of the money and buying a Mac mini with it.

00:38:00   Now you're going to keep it around for like a month or two

00:38:02   to see how you feel about the 5K?

00:38:04   Or are you going to immediately unload it?

00:38:07   Well, it has 14 days to win me back.

00:38:11   Fair enough.

00:38:12   You know, if for some reason the 5K is horrible

00:38:14   and I return it, then I will go back to it.

00:38:18   based on the reviews, I mean, everyone getting these 5Ks

00:38:20   seems to be loving them.

00:38:21   Like, I have not found a lot of complaints about them.

00:38:24   I was a little worried about heat and fan noise,

00:38:27   and from what I can gather, what everyone's saying is

00:38:30   that you can hear the fan if you're like playing a 3D game.

00:38:35   Sean, that might be relevant to you, actually.

00:38:37   But if you're just doing other things,

00:38:40   even if you're stressing the CPUs,

00:38:42   like if you're running Handbrake,

00:38:43   as long as you're not stressing the CPU and the GPU,

00:38:46   everyone's basically saying it's effectively inaudible.

00:38:49   So I'll see when it gets here.

00:38:51   - Did you hear the audio file that someone sent us

00:38:53   of their Mac Pro fan, or iMac fan, rather?

00:38:54   - No.

00:38:55   - Someone played Portal basically on their iMac

00:38:58   and recorded the sound of the fan.

00:39:00   And of course you can't tell from recording

00:39:02   how loud it really is, 'cause it really depends

00:39:03   on how close the mic was and so on and so forth.

00:39:05   But you can kind of get a feel for the quality of the sound.

00:39:07   And it sounds, not surprisingly, very similar

00:39:10   to what it sounds like when you really crank up

00:39:13   the fans on a laptop, you know what I mean?

00:39:15   because it's a thin package and there's small openings.

00:39:18   - Right.

00:39:19   - It's got that kind of, I couldn't tell

00:39:20   if it was like the asymmetrical fan,

00:39:22   kind of like a fuzzy hiss instead of like the wine

00:39:26   that you'd get from a small symmetrical fan,

00:39:28   but there's pretty big fans in there, so.

00:39:30   - Well, there's just one fan.

00:39:32   It's in the back behind the stand.

00:39:34   - It's big, right?

00:39:35   - It is, it's big, but it's not nearly as big

00:39:37   as like the Mac Pros.

00:39:38   I mean, there's not enough room for a fan that big.

00:39:40   I've been looking around to see if anybody

00:39:42   has any information on this fan.

00:39:44   like I was looking around on it before I ordered.

00:39:47   iFixit shows you what it looks like,

00:39:48   but no one seems to say it has asymmetrical blades.

00:39:52   I can't find that information on Apple's side,

00:39:54   anywhere else, so I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

00:39:57   - The big difference between the Mac Pro fan

00:39:59   and that fan is the same reason, you know,

00:40:01   you can get an extra 10 horsepower

00:40:02   by changing your intake manifold.

00:40:04   - Nice.

00:40:05   - There's much better airflow through the Mac Pro

00:40:07   than you do trying to bring air in

00:40:09   through the little slits or whatever

00:40:11   at the bottom of that iMac,

00:40:12   and then shove it through a bunch of tubes or whatever.

00:40:13   So the Mac Pro is all nice and opened up plenty of power.

00:40:18   This analogy does not work anymore,

00:40:21   but you know what I mean?

00:40:22   - Yeah, no, I mean, literally,

00:40:24   I have never hurt my Mac Pro fan, ever.

00:40:27   Like, no matter what I do with this thing.

00:40:29   And granted, I don't play 3D games,

00:40:30   so I don't think I've ever stressed the GPUs

00:40:33   and the CPUs at the same time.

00:40:35   But doing just pure CPU maxing out,

00:40:40   I've never ever hurt the fan on this Mac Pro.

00:40:43   And I don't expect the iMac to match that level of awesomeness, but as long as it's

00:40:47   close, I'll be very happy with it.

00:40:49   And everyone's basically saying it's totally worth it because the screen is amazing.

00:40:52   Yeah, I saw one.

00:40:54   I went to the Apple store to check one out, and remember that I don't have any Retina

00:40:59   Macs in the house.

00:41:01   And I gotta tell you, that screen is beautiful.

00:41:03   It is absolutely the screen I would want in a mythical revised Thunderbolt display, which

00:41:09   as we've talked about many times in the past isn't going to happen for a long time.

00:41:13   But I'm personally not a desktop kind of guy.

00:41:16   And so as much as I think that screen is beautiful,

00:41:20   I'm not going to be buying an iMac anytime soon.

00:41:23   But it is pretty.

00:41:24   - I was actually about 100 feet from an Apple store

00:41:26   yesterday and didn't go in because I didn't want,

00:41:29   like I want mine to be the first one I see.

00:41:31   I know that's stupid, but like I just,

00:41:33   I know it's already coming.

00:41:34   Like it's like, I might as well wait until,

00:41:36   I think it's supposed to get here on Monday or Tuesday.

00:41:37   Like I might as well wait until then, you know?

00:41:39   So yeah.

00:41:41   But I realized too, as I was talking to our friend

00:41:44   underscore David Smith and reading

00:41:47   a few other people's reviews, one

00:41:49   of the great things about a retina screen for iOS

00:41:51   developers is that you can run the retina simulators

00:41:54   at regular sizes.

00:41:55   When you have a non-retina screen,

00:41:57   for those of you who don't know, the retina simulators

00:42:00   run by default at 1x of their actual pixels.

00:42:04   And so a retina iPad doesn't even

00:42:07   fit on your monitor most of the time,

00:42:08   especially if you're using a laptop.

00:42:10   Even the Retina iPhone 6 Plus doesn't fit on anything either

00:42:15   because it's so freaking big, 'cause it's 3X the pixels.

00:42:19   And on a Retina screen, it runs,

00:42:22   these things all run at their Retina sizes,

00:42:25   at their native point sizes, so they're smaller.

00:42:28   And you can hit Command + 2 and 3

00:42:31   to artificially shrink them if you need to

00:42:33   on a regular screen, but the performance is terrible,

00:42:35   it doesn't look good.

00:42:36   So even just doing iOS development,

00:42:39   There's a very, very good reason to have retina screens,

00:42:41   because it just makes it so much easier

00:42:44   to see what you need on screen the way it will actually

00:42:48   look on a device.

00:42:49   Yeah, that makes sense.

00:42:50   I saw a screenshot that _DavidSmith-- I

00:42:54   assume he sent you the same one-- of him running the iPad

00:42:58   simulator, I think in landscape, and having Xcode adjacent to it

00:43:02   all on the same screen, not using spaces or anything

00:43:05   like that.

00:43:05   And there was still plenty of room left over.

00:43:07   And I've done enough iOS development to know that's a big damn deal.

00:43:10   So I'm excited for you as much as it makes me grumble that you sh*t-canned the trash

00:43:17   can so quickly.

00:43:19   But anyway.

00:43:20   Believe me, that makes me grumble just as much.

00:43:23   I mean, it does not please me that I spent a lot of money on this computer that I thought

00:43:28   I was going to have for a while, expecting that I'd be able to get desktop retina the

00:43:32   way I wanted with it, only to find out something way, way better came out like nine months

00:43:39   later. I mean, that's, I guess, 10 months later. That is not a great feeling. But it

00:43:45   is a great feeling that the one I got, the Mac Pro I got, the resale value will probably

00:43:51   cover the iMac's cost, at least most of the way. We'll see though.

00:43:56   God, that's impressive.

00:43:58   All right, we have a little bit more follow-up,

00:44:00   but before we get to that,

00:44:01   since I think it may take a minute,

00:44:03   why don't you tell us about something else

00:44:04   that's really cool?

00:44:05   - We are also sponsored this week

00:44:07   by our unthrottled and unlimited friends, Backblaze.

00:44:10   Backblaze.com/ATP.

00:44:14   Backblaze is unlimited unthrottled online backup.

00:44:17   They also love to say it's uncomplicated and native,

00:44:21   and they have all these un-words except native.

00:44:23   It is very, very good online backup.

00:44:24   I use them myself.

00:44:26   It's always there.

00:44:27   It's always backing things up for you.

00:44:28   Your data is always secure.

00:44:30   There's an entire class of problems this protects you from.

00:44:34   Basically, anything that can happen physically

00:44:36   to your house.

00:44:37   If somebody could walk in and steal your computer

00:44:41   and the drive next to it, that's your backup drive.

00:44:44   That you could have a fire, you could have a flood,

00:44:46   you can have electrical surges,

00:44:48   and all sorts of weird issues like that.

00:44:49   If your data only exists in your house or in your office,

00:44:53   that's not really good enough,

00:44:55   if it's really that important to you.

00:44:56   You gotta have an offsite backup.

00:44:58   And there's also, because it's online,

00:45:00   they can offer you advantages.

00:45:01   Like they have an app for iPhone, iPad, and Android,

00:45:04   where you can access your files

00:45:06   that you've backed up on Backblaze wherever you are.

00:45:09   You can also log into their website.

00:45:10   So like what I sometimes do,

00:45:12   if I wanna get a file that's on my home desktop

00:45:15   and I'm traveling with my laptop,

00:45:16   I can log into the site

00:45:17   and pull that file right off the site.

00:45:19   All of this is just five bucks a month.

00:45:22   It is so good.

00:45:23   I mean, I use it, my wife uses it.

00:45:26   I set up my mom with it when I was there last time.

00:45:29   I just installed it on her computer

00:45:30   and so now I know my mom's all backed up

00:45:32   and I don't have to worry about it.

00:45:33   Of course, she doesn't have to worry about it.

00:45:35   It's so great.

00:45:36   I can't recommend Backblaze enough.

00:45:37   Go to backblaze.com/atp.

00:45:40   You get great unlimited unthrottled online backup,

00:45:43   really unlimited disk space, that is really impressive.

00:45:46   Unlimited online backup, five bucks a month.

00:45:49   Anyway, thanks a lot to Backblaze for sponsoring once again.

00:45:52   Oh, and we have a really good story about Backblaze.

00:45:57   Hi, guys.

00:45:57   About eight months ago, following a sponsor read on

00:45:59   your show, I signed one of my servers onto Backblaze using

00:46:02   your coupon code.

00:46:04   Previously, it had been using an alternative off-site

00:46:06   solution that had experienced some silent data loss.

00:46:10   Two months ago, our contracted engineers managed to

00:46:13   accidentally delete all of the data from our RAID set.

00:46:17   Our local backups of our most active projects were good, and

00:46:20   We had a backup of our email store from the previous evening, but our local copy of our

00:46:24   support files and archives and financial data was found wanting.

00:46:28   We are architects and by law we have to keep everything we do for seven years, and Backblaze

00:46:32   saved our business.

00:46:33   If it wasn't for the fact that Backblaze, or excuse me, if it wasn't for the fact that

00:46:37   we could get everything back from Backblaze's service, downloads or drives in the mail or

00:46:42   whatever, then I honestly believe that we would have had to shut the doors and 30 people

00:46:46   would be looking for new jobs.

00:46:49   you to them and thank you to you guys. So yeah, that's honest to goodness, hand on

00:46:54   heart, that is pretty much verbatim an email we got. So like Marco had said, get back please,

00:47:01   get some sort of online backup, it can save your bacon.

00:47:03   Yeah, and if nobody's told you yet, RAID and RAID-like systems like Drobo's and NASA's

00:47:10   and things like that, that is not its own backup. Those things serve to reduce downtime,

00:47:16   in the case of like Drobo and Synology's hybrid RAID

00:47:19   and stuff like that, it's things like,

00:47:22   I want to expand this drive volume

00:47:23   without erasing everything,

00:47:25   so you can get convenience from RAID.

00:47:27   But RAID is not a backup.

00:47:29   - That's what RAID stands for.

00:47:31   RAID stands for RAID is not a backup.

00:47:32   That's why it's spelled R-A-I-D.

00:47:35   - Exactly.

00:47:36   Just don't ask a geek what the I is for.

00:47:38   - Every year, everyone's gonna email us

00:47:40   about the different definitions of what the I is for in RAID.

00:47:42   - Yeah.

00:47:44   All right, so a couple other things

00:47:46   that we should hit in follow-up.

00:47:48   There's a couple of quick ones and one not so quick.

00:47:50   First, I've tried Apple Pay.

00:47:52   It is magical.

00:47:53   I have used it twice.

00:47:55   Both times were at McDonald's.

00:47:56   I don't care if you think that's gross

00:47:58   because I like McDonald's.

00:48:00   The first time was for breakfast

00:48:02   and it was just as socially awkward as I expected it to be

00:48:06   because I had told the clerk,

00:48:08   oh, how do I go about using the phone pay thing

00:48:13   I didn't want to say, "How do I use Apple Pay?"

00:48:16   Because I figured that they would be like, "What?"

00:48:19   So I made it worse by using hand-wavy generalisms, but eventually I realized near-field communication

00:48:28   isn't just near-field communication.

00:48:30   It's like, stick your darn phone on top of the reader communication.

00:48:34   And once I got the phone a lot closer, it prompted me to pay and it worked no problem.

00:48:39   And then last night I used it again in order to get a chocolate milkshake for Aaron when

00:48:43   I was returning from home to the hospital.

00:48:46   But it is pretty awesome and I'm really stoked to use it in pretty much any store I could

00:48:51   possibly use it in.

00:48:53   And another quick one, someone's Shallonman on Twitter.

00:48:59   Let me see if I can find their actual name.

00:49:01   It's M. Night.

00:49:04   Nicely done.

00:49:05   It's Magnus, apparently.

00:49:07   Um, he had told us that there is perhaps a way to do upgrade pricing or bundles

00:49:14   To use bundles to do upgrade pricing in the app store. I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on that

00:49:19   Yeah, we talked about that like that, you know someone

00:49:21   It broached that idea and we talked about how terrible it would be because it's not it's like yeah

00:49:27   You can kind of get upgrade pricing that way but trying to explain it to people

00:49:30   It's like I know you just want to to get a cheaper way to get the next version of this program

00:49:34   But what you really have to do is buy this bundle. It looks like it has two programs

00:49:38   But you will subtract the amount that you paid

00:49:40   for the other one which is not the same as the amount that it's currently for sale for in the store and like it's it's

00:49:46   All this convoluted system and you know

00:49:48   Marco in particular thought it was a bad idea

00:49:51   I also agreed

00:49:52   But the bottom line is we thought someone would try to do it if Apple didn't stop them

00:49:56   And this is I think the screenshot from a German

00:49:58   App store, but anyway apparently someone has tried to do it is doing it and Apple hasn't stopped them yet

00:50:03   and I'm sure people are very confused by it because all they want is one program and they have to buy a bundle with two and

00:50:10   Hope they're getting the right things and it's kind of a mess

00:50:12   Right and as Kyla Cronin points out in the chat

00:50:15   You have to still be selling the old program in the store like the old version has to still be there

00:50:19   Which means that you'll have people buying the old version

00:50:22   thinking it's the new version and then it there are so many like so many problems in practice with with

00:50:28   this arrangement and trying to hack upgrade pricing

00:50:32   into this, this system was clearly not made to do that.

00:50:35   And the more you try to wedge upgrade pricing

00:50:38   into that system, the more it's just gonna hurt

00:50:40   your support costs, your reviews,

00:50:44   your relationship with your customers.

00:50:45   I think it's worth looking at, our friends,

00:50:48   Supertop bought Unread from Jared Sinclair.

00:50:51   And they just, this past week or the week before,

00:50:54   they just released their new update.

00:50:56   And it's a separate app, they had to do that

00:50:58   various reasons. And they have a fantastic monetization plan where it's a free download

00:51:04   and you get, I don't know, 50 articles to read in trial mode, something like that. So

00:51:09   some trial limits to it. And then you got to pay. And so they do upgrade pricing with

00:51:14   in-app purchase and it just sees if you have the old version installed. It's not like

00:51:18   as secure, I'm sure you could fake it pretty easily or hack your way around it, but who

00:51:22   cares? I mean, that's not worth worrying too much about.

00:51:25   It's so obvious that Apple really wants people to just make the apps free up front and figure

00:51:31   out your monetization some other way.

00:51:35   Use an app purchase for that purpose.

00:51:36   It's so much better for so many use cases.

00:51:38   It's so much better for customers.

00:51:40   It sucks when an app is paid up front and then you download it and it sucks.

00:51:45   That's one of the reasons why that generates a lot of customer hostility.

00:51:49   It makes people lose faith in the app store.

00:51:52   It makes a lot of one-star reviews.

00:51:55   I don't want to say that free apps don't have that,

00:51:56   but if you can avoid making your app paid upfront,

00:51:59   you should.

00:52:00   And Apple's never gonna make it easy for you

00:52:03   to have upgrade pricing or automatic free trials

00:52:06   or anything like that.

00:52:08   They're never gonna make that easy.

00:52:09   The way forward is free app with some kind of trial mode

00:52:12   or limitations in-app purchase to upgrade it.

00:52:15   And any other system is just gonna be a world of pain

00:52:17   for you and your customers.

00:52:20   - Yeah, the unread thing was very cool.

00:52:23   I mean, it was a little goofy in that you could tell

00:52:26   it was probably, like you said, a URL scheme,

00:52:28   and it bounced back and forth between the apps

00:52:31   a couple, once or twice, but the fact that they

00:52:33   pulled it off, and well, that Super Top is the one

00:52:37   that did it, or one of the ones that did it,

00:52:38   isn't surprising, but the fact that they pulled it off

00:52:40   was very impressive.

00:52:42   - The fact that Apple approved it was impressive.

00:52:43   - Yeah, that too, but it was very cool,

00:52:46   and I certainly appreciated it as an unread user, so.

00:52:50   even ignoring the using bundles as upgrade pricing, just bundles by themselves, like

00:52:55   doing the thing they're supposed to do. Like, you know, I would like these other applications,

00:53:00   but I already have one of them. Can I get a discount by buying them in a group, but then have

00:53:06   the, you know, the, my purchase of that other one subtracted from and so on and so forth. And panic

00:53:11   is, has a bundle out now. I don't know if they have more than one, uh, panic software makers

00:53:15   of transmit and many other fine products. And they had like a fact or something trying to explain.

00:53:20   and I saw them supporting people over Twitter and I think this is right, I'm not going, again,

00:53:23   no research, I'm not going off any notes or whatever, just going by memory, but I'm

00:53:27   pretty sure that like people were confused because they would have purchased one program and they

00:53:32   would go buy a bundle with two programs in it and it would be more expensive, the bundle would be

00:53:38   more expensive than if they had just bought the second program themselves and they would be

00:53:41   confused like isn't the whole idea of the bundle that hey it has two programs I already bought one

00:53:45   of them so I can get the second one for less and it's like actually more expensive to buy the

00:53:49   bundle and the reason I think if I'm remembering this correctly is that the bundle subtracts the

00:53:54   price that you paid for the application not the price of the other application so if you bought

00:53:58   the other application when it was like on sale for 99 cents for a 24-hour sale or something it will

00:54:03   only subtract 99 cents from the bundle so you could so you could end up essentially finding a

00:54:09   really expensive way to buy that second app if you just bought the second app by itself maybe it's two

00:54:12   bucks but because you're only getting 99 cents subtracted from the bundle and the bundle price

00:54:17   was like, you know, $6 or something, you could end up paying more than two bucks for the

00:54:21   second app by buying the bundle, which is also not a good experience and weird. And

00:54:24   I don't know if that's like, it's, it's certainly not obvious. And it's basically a support

00:54:28   cost or like angry, again, angry customers who you can't get in contact with leaving

00:54:33   bad comments on your bundle saying this bundle is a ripoff. It's cheaper for me to buy the

00:54:37   other app separately. Don't do this. It's a scam. And you can't respond to that person.

00:54:41   It's just, it's just terrible. Well, we're running out of things to complain

00:54:45   about that Apple has done in terms of app store policy, so why not this?

00:54:51   So I wanted to quickly mention as well that we talked last episode about a tweet that

00:54:56   Michael Jurowitz had written that very, very conveniently and succinctly summarized what

00:55:02   is required for the different kinds of continuity in iOS 8 and Yosemite.

00:55:07   And listener Jared sent a tweet that we will put in the show notes that has two links to

00:55:13   Apple K base articles that explain what is required for each of the

00:55:18   different kinds of continuity.

00:55:19   So we'll put those in the show notes.

00:55:20   John, how did you, how would you like to eliminate support for certain

00:55:26   kinds of devices in an iOS app?

00:55:28   Yeah.

00:55:29   Marco was, I asked Marco on a previous show, if there was a way to sell an app,

00:55:34   but exclude devices with the A5 system on a chip because they're slower.

00:55:39   And you say you want to like sell, sell something that you know is not going to

00:55:42   run on those and like basically how the a5 devices are dragging down app

00:55:45   development because you can't make something really awesome because you

00:55:48   have to support the a5 because there's no way for you to exclude I mean

00:55:50   technically of course there are but like that Apple doesn't let you exclude it by

00:55:54   making up something bogus you know like checking for a screen resolution and and

00:55:59   retina versus non-retina something like that and a lot of people are going to

00:56:03   tell us that one of the things you can specify is you can require metal support

00:56:07   and apparently metal is not supported on some the a5 devices I don't know the

00:56:11   details but that's correct the problem is it's also not supported on the a6

00:56:15   devices so metal can require iPhone 5s and up but if you require metal you are

00:56:21   ruling out the iPhone 5 and 5c and the iPad 4 which is annoying because the a6

00:56:28   is a pretty good chip it's a pretty big jump over the a5 and it would be a shame

00:56:32   to to lose those and and so it's probably not worth most apps except the

00:56:37   highest end games doing this trick. And plus, I think, you know, and Apple would still probably

00:56:43   not appreciate it. Like if some podcast app said, "Oh, I require Metal." And it's like,

00:56:47   you know, "Really? Do you? Like, for what?"

00:56:49   Yeah, so that's why I put this in here. Like, again, there are many things you could possibly

00:56:53   do that may be possible with public APIs, but the only thing that actually matters is

00:56:57   whether Apple frowns upon the practice. So, Metal is one where you could say, "Okay,

00:57:02   well, I have legitimate use. I'm using Metal. It's not supported in these things." Like,

00:57:05   fine. But what if you have a game that requires one of the sort of upper tier devices to work

00:57:13   correctly and you just can't scale it down because it uses some lighting effect that's like essential

00:57:17   to your gameplay or whatever, but you don't use Metal. You're still like, "Okay, well now I can

00:57:22   check for some other GPU quality or whatever." That essentially this seems to be a use case that

00:57:27   not only is Apple not actively trying to support, but also it seems like if you were a clever

00:57:32   developer and came up with a way to exclude those devices that they might, you know, smack you down with the

00:57:37   with the hammer of the App Store and say, "Oh, sorry, you're out." And I think these are in the show notes somewhere. A couple people sent us

00:57:43   links to screenshots of things they bought on the App Store that when they launched them on their sort of

00:57:49   unsupported device, like technically it's supported, as far as the App Store is concerned, yeah, you can totally buy this device.

00:57:53   It'll run fine. When you launch it, it just puts up a big graphic that says, "Sorry,

00:57:56   you can't run this on this device." And those are the type of apps that I feel like

00:58:00   Maybe App Store review didn't test this on every possible piece of hardware and has no idea this is happening and if Apple knew about

00:58:06   It these that apps would be pulled from the store because I can't imagine

00:58:08   Apple letting you do that basically sell an application because Apple has a rule that like if your application doesn't meet some minimum threshold of

00:58:15   Usefulness like the I am rich app will probably get directed and get rejected these days

00:58:20   Then doesn't go in the store and this app if you run it like an iPad mini just puts up a graphic that says sorry

00:58:25   You can't play this game and that's like after you download it and whether it's free or not

00:58:29   That is something that I imagine Apple would not approve of.

00:58:32   So this is another place where developers have a problem in how do I develop my product,

00:58:40   how do I formulate a business plan, and how do I sell this product to people,

00:58:45   how do I even conceptualize a product that can be sold,

00:58:48   and Apple is not quite doing enough to create an environment

00:58:52   that lets developers do what they want to do in a reasonable way, which is a shame.

00:58:56   Our final sponsor this week is lynda.com.

00:59:01   lynda.com is an easy and affordable way to help you learn with high quality, easy to follow video tutorials.

00:59:06   You can instantly stream thousands of courses created by experts on software, web development, graphic design, and more.

00:59:11   And these are very high quality courses. This is not like the homemade YouTube videos where it's pretty much inconsistent.

00:59:16   This is high quality, professionally produced courses by working professionals in their fields.

00:59:21   high quality, professionally produced courses by working professionals in their fields.

00:59:26   You can even learn while you're on the go with the Lynda.com apps for iPhone, iPad, and Android.

00:59:31   They also offer an annual premium plan. If you're a premium member, you can download courses to your iPhone,

00:59:36   iPad, or Android app and watch them offline. And you can also download sample project files and practice

00:59:41   along with the instructor. So that's great. Like if you're getting on a plane, you might get them all offline.

00:59:46   courses you might love.

00:59:47   They have app and web development stuff

00:59:48   in many languages.

00:59:50   They also have things like productivity apps,

00:59:52   creative pro apps like Adobe Creative Suite, Logic,

00:59:54   Final Cut, and even professional skills like management

00:59:58   and negotiation.

00:59:59   What I like about Linda myself is

01:00:02   you can watch whatever you want.

01:00:04   There's no pressure to pick, well, which one of these

01:00:06   am I going to watch because it's going to cost me money.

01:00:08   Because the great thing is it's flat rate priced.

01:00:10   You pay $25 a month, and that gives you unlimited access

01:00:13   their entire catalog, over 100,000 video tutorials, 25 bucks a month, that's it, unlimited.

01:00:19   I love learning little quick things about things I'm doing or things I need. In my case,

01:00:25   I use lynda.com a lot for learning some podcast editing techniques. lynda.com is so useful

01:00:31   that 30% of colleges and universities and most of the Ivy League schools offer lynda.com

01:00:36   subscriptions to their students and faculty members. So that's really great. Anyway, go

01:00:41   Go to lynda.com, they're offering a free seven-day trial.

01:00:44   You can access all of their courses for free.

01:00:46   Go to lynda.com/atp.

01:00:49   Seven-day free trial.

01:00:51   L-Y-N-D-A dot com slash ATP.

01:00:54   Thanks a lot to lynda.com for sponsoring our show once again.

01:00:56   So we should probably talk at least a little bit about the after show from the last episode

01:01:03   which was talking about Gamergate.

01:01:07   And there's a couple of links that we wanted to share with you guys, and I'm guessing,

01:01:12   Jon, you were the one that added these?

01:01:14   Yeah, I think we got—I got most of the links I wanted to put out in last week's show

01:01:18   notes, so if you haven't—we didn't talk about all the things that I linked, but if

01:01:20   you go back to last week's show notes and look at the links, there's some good stuff

01:01:23   there.

01:01:24   And then shortly after the show, either this came out after the show or at least I read

01:01:28   it after the show, there was one more that I thought was good that got passed around

01:01:31   a lot that's worth reading.

01:01:32   And this one is—it's weird because it's from a movie reviewer, and it's from a movie

01:01:36   Reviewer who has a sort of who writes it underneath sort of a persona. It's film crit Hulk as in film critic Hulk and

01:01:44   He assumes that he who knows

01:01:47   writes as if it's the Hulk writing movie reviews sort of talking like caveman like this like or like Hulk talks or whatever and

01:01:54   It's all in caps and that

01:01:57   Prevents a lot of people from reading anything that he writes because it's all in caps

01:02:02   So there are two before I discuss what he actually wrote about game or get there two things you will need one

01:02:07   There is the D Hulk of fire

01:02:09   There are many ways that you can you know, you could just go in and if you're a web developer

01:02:13   Just change everything the lower case really easily but the D Hulk of fire tries to actually make things sentence case for you

01:02:17   So if you're going to try to read this don't try to read it in all caps, you'll you'll probably go blind

01:02:23   Look into the D Hulk of our first

01:02:25   So that's one link and the second link is an interview with the guy or none is an interview

01:02:30   I think it's just writing about him, but asking him questions about, "Why do you do this?

01:02:36   Why do you write your movie reviews in all caps as if you're the Hulk?

01:02:39   What's the point of that?

01:02:40   It seems like it's annoying.

01:02:41   You're reducing your readership.

01:02:42   Is it a gimmick?"

01:02:43   Whatever, so on and so forth.

01:02:44   So you can read that to explain why he does this.

01:02:45   I read the explanation.

01:02:46   I understand the purpose behind it, but bottom line, I find it very difficult to read very

01:02:51   long things of text that are all in caps.

01:02:53   And he writes really long things all the time.

01:02:56   All right, so anyway, the actual article that he wrote here, his is from a perspective of

01:03:00   of despair and sadness about this thing has happened

01:03:05   and he feels helpless to do anything about it

01:03:09   and it looks like it's horrible.

01:03:10   It's kind of like viewing a tragedy from afar.

01:03:13   Everyone is all just,

01:03:15   all these people are smashing together

01:03:17   and not understanding each other

01:03:20   and there are bad outcomes

01:03:22   and it doesn't bode well for the future

01:03:25   and so on and so forth.

01:03:26   And so if you're looking to read something

01:03:29   try to understand the people who find the whole movement sort of the whole phenomenon upsetting

01:03:38   right like they're not so much a cheerleader for one side or the other but they think

01:03:43   gamergate has been incredibly damaging and they try and they try to explain why uh i mean he's

01:03:49   he's against gamergate as everyone is at this point i believe you know most of the mainstream

01:03:55   media has come down pretty hard on a side of being against gamergate but this is not like it's not

01:03:59   cheerleading for like we need to get those gamer gate guys I think it is very

01:04:04   very understanding and empathetic and if you can get into the headspace of the

01:04:09   people who are viewing this sort of not entirely from the outside but more like

01:04:14   I don't know it's super long you should just give it a try and and read it

01:04:21   Film Crit Hulk, his movie reviews are similar, very long, very rambling, very emotional.

01:04:32   I find them interesting sometimes even when I disagree with them.

01:04:34   So if you still feel like there's something of substance to Gamergate and you don't understand

01:04:41   why people are upset about it, this is one more thing that you can read and it's a little

01:04:45   game where you have to try to turn it into a sentence case before you get to read it

01:04:49   without going crazy.

01:04:50   So that's it.

01:04:51   want to go into too far. Did either one of you perchance even attempt to read this?

01:04:56   No.

01:04:57   I don't know if I can answer that question because it was really long.

01:05:04   You have an excuse now, Casey. Play the baby card. Pull it out. Come on.

01:05:07   Yeah, so I have a new baby, so I have no time for that BS.

01:05:10   I was totally busy. Couldn't read it. You totally meant to read it. But anyway…

01:05:13   No, honest to goodness, I really do intend to. And now that I know that there's a way

01:05:17   to take away the all caps. I probably will, but I looked at the length and I looked at

01:05:22   the all caps and I was like, "No, I can't do this."

01:05:25   And honestly, it could be shorter. With the many things that he writes, that's one of

01:05:28   the major complaints. It's long and doesn't seem like it needs to be that long. But there

01:05:32   is a certain char between maybe reading one of those things. But anyway, I'm on to talk.

01:05:38   I ramble on in my writing as well before anyone calls me out on that.

01:05:43   I wish that he actually wrote this in the source code

01:05:45   in regular case, and then just use CSS text transform

01:05:49   to make it uppercase on display.

01:05:50   Because then you could just copy it out.

01:05:52   Yep.

01:05:52   And that's the easiest way to change it to lowercase,

01:05:53   is just do text transform for lowercase.

01:05:55   But the extension will try to sentence case it for you.

01:05:58   Yeah.

01:05:58   Nice.

01:05:59   And of course, getting rid of the all caps

01:06:01   doesn't change the sort of Hulk write like this, like that.

01:06:05   It won't add-- it won't put the articles back in.

01:06:08   So there's always going to be a little bit of that Hulk flavor

01:06:11   to it.

01:06:12   but he slips in and out of that.

01:06:13   He can't maintain that character, I found,

01:06:16   over the long haul and in the middle of the thing,

01:06:17   he just starts writing regular sentences

01:06:19   that happen to be in all caps.

01:06:20   - Can we get Jonathan Colton to sing this to us?

01:06:22   Maybe that would be easier.

01:06:24   - That would be a long song.

01:06:25   - It'd still be better.

01:06:27   (laughing)

01:06:27   - It's true.

01:06:29   All right, are we finally done with follow-up?

01:06:30   I think we are.

01:06:31   - Yes.

01:06:32   - We are never done with follow-up.

01:06:33   - Fair point.

01:06:34   So on a sort of tangentially related note

01:06:38   with regard to people being, I don't know, made fun of.

01:06:43   I'm losing the word I'm trying to think of,

01:06:45   but anyway, persecuted.

01:06:47   So people being persecuted that shouldn't be.

01:06:50   Tim Cook came out today, is that right?

01:06:52   Or officially came out as being gay

01:06:54   and wrote a really good and reasonably short piece about it

01:06:59   and about why he's saying it and what it's all about.

01:07:03   And I definitely recommend reading it.

01:07:04   It is not in all caps.

01:07:06   It is written like a regular human should write it.

01:07:09   It is not written like a superhero.

01:07:11   And it's a really, really wonderful article,

01:07:14   and I can't recommend it enough.

01:07:16   We'll put a link in the show notes.

01:07:18   - Yeah, I'm really happy he did this.

01:07:20   I mean, a lot of people have assumed he was gay,

01:07:24   but just never said anything,

01:07:27   'cause it's not other people's place to say, really.

01:07:31   If he didn't wanna be out, that's his choice.

01:07:34   And it's sad, really, in our society,

01:07:39   it's sad that this matters, but the fact is it does.

01:07:44   It's sad that this is major news.

01:07:46   Ideally, your sexual orientation,

01:07:49   the sexual orientation of the CEO of a big company

01:07:52   shouldn't matter any more than

01:07:54   how they like their steak cooked.

01:07:55   It's like, who cares?

01:07:56   That's not relevant to his job at all.

01:07:59   That is not relevant to his public persona,

01:08:03   the role he needs to play in public and what the public needs to know about him,

01:08:07   his sexual orientation is not at all relevant. But the fact is, and he writes this in the essay,

01:08:15   the fact is it does still matter because society as a whole is still nowhere near

01:08:23   even mainstream, let alone full acceptance of homosexuality and various other LGBTQ states

01:08:32   and identities, and not to mention things like gender identity. I mean, there's so many things

01:08:36   that we're still way behind on. So the fact is, it is still very significant that he is coming out in

01:08:44   public, because that is still a risk to a lot of people, and that is still significant. And again,

01:08:53   like, I wish he didn't have to, but I see why he wanted to do it. Yeah, that's the—this type of

01:09:01   issue, you know, people who make the sort of the comment that like, like you just said this,

01:09:06   they're like, well that that doesn't, that shouldn't matter, it's irrelevant, and the fact that he's

01:09:10   writing an article about it to declare this is just such BS because why is he emphasizing this,

01:09:16   it's really not important, like, uh, it should just be, it should just be, you know, sort of

01:09:21   unspoken, there's no need, you need, you don't need to throw this in my face, you know, uh, or

01:09:26   just saying like by talking about it and by emphasizing it you're actually making the

01:09:32   issue worse and really we should just all be equal and stuff and like this is very similar

01:09:37   to the sexism issue in that events like this don't happen in isolation if you view it in isolation

01:09:42   by saying this you are drawing attention to the issue and you're just making it so you're never

01:09:46   going to be accepted because you keep trying to show yourself as being different and so on and so

01:09:49   so forth, but viewing anything like that,

01:09:53   viewing any event or any action in isolation

01:09:58   and then trying to apply logic to it

01:10:00   and saying therefore this is illogical to be doing this,

01:10:04   or you shouldn't, it doesn't make any sense

01:10:05   because it's happening in the context of a world

01:10:08   where we know that there is prejudice against gay people.

01:10:12   There are laws on the books that you can be fired

01:10:15   for saying that you're gay.

01:10:18   That's the world this is taking place in, which is why he said in the article,

01:10:22   "This is why I have to do this, because it's the context of the world that I live in,

01:10:26   that I have to do this." Nobody is writing an article, a one-page article in Business

01:10:31   Week that's getting this kind of coverage and saying, "I'd like to come out and tell you now

01:10:35   that actually I am married." Nobody's writing that, because the context is that we do not live in a

01:10:41   society where being married is something that can get you fired, something that can make people

01:10:48   prejudice is against you. There are not huge groups of people who are just against married

01:10:51   people. We could live in that society. It's just as arbitrary as, you know what I mean?

01:10:56   **Matt Stauffer** Try to get a job as a married woman who's 30.

01:10:58   **Matt Stauffer** I didn't say women. The women issue is the same thing when people say,

01:11:03   anything that happens that women will say about sexism, and they'll say, "Oh, that doesn't make

01:11:07   any sense, blah, blah, blah." It's happening, and racism is exactly the same. In isolation,

01:11:12   your crazy, you know, sort of pseudo-rationalist logic works, but this event, this person,

01:11:17   this action, this thing is happening in the context of a society where, you know, we're at a country

01:11:23   that used to have slavery, where there's massive institutional racism, where there's millennia of

01:11:27   oppression of women. That is the context in which this action is taking place, and you have to view

01:11:32   the things in context. And I think people have a reasonable time with this, because people

01:11:36   People understand, for the most part at this point, I think, the context of being gay.

01:11:41   They know gay people have been oppressed and discriminated against.

01:11:47   We know we're in the active process of trying to get our laws straight on this with marriage

01:11:51   equality, right?

01:11:52   Just in the same way in the civil rights movement, it's like, "Oh, I can see that this was bad

01:11:56   and now it's getting better when this transitions."

01:11:58   The problem is when you get into situations where you either think that has already come

01:12:01   and gone and it's not a problem anymore, like racism, or you think it's never been a problem

01:12:05   Like sexism where you're like, that's just the way things are or you can't even remember

01:12:08   No one is alive who was around, you know for women who were getting suffrage

01:12:11   anyway, I

01:12:12   I am also sad that mostly sad that he felt like he had to keep this part of him hidden for so long

01:12:18   not that I thought that it is irrelevant to his job in any way other than making him empathetic to other people who are also

01:12:25   marginalized but

01:12:26   yeah, you know, it's just can you imagine being him being like

01:12:31   even when Steve Jobs still I've just a tremendously powerful person in a successful company and yet feeling like you had to

01:12:38   Not so much keep it secret secret

01:12:41   but basically this is part of me that I know I can't I can't talk about because there may be damaging consequences damaging consequences for

01:12:47   the company that I work for for my career for you know for like

01:12:54   Imagine if he had come out as soon as he was named CEO or just before like how that would you know?

01:12:59   Oh that it could mess up our transition, you know, it's like it's such a shame that that's the case

01:13:05   so that's that's the world that we live in that

01:13:07   This had to be a carefully controlled

01:13:10   Thing where you know and and by the way speaking of carefully controlled in typical apple fashion

01:13:15   I think he did an amazing job in terms of

01:13:17   Not letting anyone else dictate the story

01:13:20   Not sort of getting outed or pressured into answering questions about his private life or anything like that

01:13:25   Even though this has been a persistent sort of you know

01:13:27   rumor for a long time

01:13:29   press was mostly good about squashing that and saying,

01:13:32   it's not, this is not something that you should be discussing in the tech press,

01:13:36   because it's not a tech issue. So he owned this issue.

01:13:39   He came out on his own terms, the way he wanted to,

01:13:42   in a way that shows why he's such a great Apple CEO, right?

01:13:46   Because like he controlled the messaging and,

01:13:48   and just the timing and everything to be like, you know,

01:13:52   after, after the transition from Steve jobs,

01:13:56   after the Apple Watch announcement and no one's asking if Apple can ever make another great product and it's just

01:14:02   Yeah, I don't know. I have a lot of feelings about it. I'm excited that he's out. I'm happy that he is providing an example

01:14:09   You know to more marginalized people to say

01:14:13   You can be whatever you want to be in life there there is no glass ceiling that should be preventing you from you know becoming

01:14:21   Becoming you know, whatever you want to be, you know, we're still not all the way there

01:14:26   like the same way Barack Obama's, you know, kids growing up in a world where there's a president

01:14:30   who looks like them. Long way to go on all fronts in these things. No gay presidents, no woman

01:14:37   presidents, no atheist presidents, which probably never happen in any of our lifetimes. But, you

01:14:41   know, every little bit helps, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, like, that's like, you know, before he came

01:14:47   out, it was like he was in a position of power. You know, he wasn't not coming out publicly because

01:14:54   he was afraid, I always assumed that he was not coming out publicly because he didn't

01:15:00   think that should be relevant to his job, and so he was choosing, you know, from that

01:15:05   position of power, from that position of being in control.

01:15:07   - But also because he knew this was a thing that some people don't like. Again, he wasn't

01:15:12   saying he's going to come out, I'm going to come out as left-handed. Nobody cares.

01:15:15   Like literally nobody cares that he's left-handed, but he knows that there are people who do

01:15:19   care that he's gay, which is terrible, but that is the context in which that decision

01:15:23   is being made and you can keep saying like oh it's about my privacy and it's like it's

01:15:26   like not coming out to say you have bad vision like no one knows you wear glasses because

01:15:30   you always wear contacts and that's technically a health matter and it's like private information

01:15:34   and if anyone asks you a question do you wear glasses that's private information I'm sorry

01:15:37   I won't reveal that people will think you were crazy because there is no context in

01:15:40   which you wearing glasses is meaningful to anybody like that's when people throw out

01:15:45   those issues of like well it's private information you shouldn't have to say it or whatever your

01:15:48   health information, like your eyesight, is more private than your sexual orientation.

01:15:53   The only reason we think sexual orientation is private is because there's so many people

01:15:57   in institutions and laws that are prejudiced against it. That is the maddening thing, and

01:16:02   that's why I think you can't—I don't ever hear people making those comparisons

01:16:05   in either direction. It's like, context, it is all about context.

01:16:11   You can look at this from the way of, like, well, was he sending a more powerful message

01:16:17   never addressing this issue in public and just being who he was and just never letting

01:16:22   this even enter the public discussion or coming out publicly. And I think, you know, you could

01:16:28   argue it either way, but I think he made the right move coming out publicly because I think

01:16:33   if being gay was more societally accepted, then it would make sense for him to just never

01:16:39   address personal matters he didn't think were relevant to his job. But because we're

01:16:43   not there yet, I think this was a strong move. But why would he—if we were in a society where

01:16:50   nobody cared, he would never have felt the need to hide in the first place. Because again, you don't

01:16:56   hide your left-handedness. Nobody cares. Literally nobody cares. And we're never probably going to be

01:17:00   to that point where nobody, nobody cares, because human evolution takes longer than that, right?

01:17:04   And who knows if we're selecting for the right things at this point. Anyway,

01:17:10   if he's going to come out and do this in the context of the world that we live in,

01:17:13   there is a good way it can happen, and there's a bad way that it can happen. And not happening at

01:17:18   all is perhaps the worst outcome, because then it would feel like he was the most powerful,

01:17:22   you know, the CEO of the biggest company in the world, and even he felt it wasn't safe for him

01:17:26   to do this, right, because of the world we live in. So I'm glad that he did it, and I'm glad that he

01:17:34   did it in a way that was positive, like it was not negative, it was not he was his hand was not

01:17:40   forced. It does not did not disrupt anything else. Because if he had come out and had disrupted

01:17:45   things, the lesson would be Oh, be careful, you better you better stay in the closet if you're

01:17:48   a powerful CEO, because look what it could do to your stock price, right? That would totally be

01:17:52   unfair. But that would be the takeaway for the if you know, if there was a problem with it. And now

01:17:56   I think he's entirely owning it and owning the message. And it's been universally positive as

01:18:02   as far as I can tell. I mean even the timing was masterful. Like there's not a

01:18:06   lot going on in you know in tech this week. He's not like you know it doesn't

01:18:10   appear as though he's like trying to like bury some bad Apple PR or overshadow

01:18:15   someone else's news or anything else. In the Apple product cycle like they've

01:18:20   already announced their fall products we're not gonna hear from Apple again

01:18:22   for the rest of the year in all likelihood. The next major Apple event is

01:18:25   gonna be in the spring whenever the watch comes out and we're also like

01:18:28   right between their last announcements and Black Friday and holiday shopping so

01:18:33   it's like it's like a perfect little window where like nothing else is really

01:18:35   going on it's not going to appear so this is some kind of political move or

01:18:40   some kind of like you know move for Apple's political gain because it's not

01:18:43   like you could tell that this was this was not for that reason moves like this

01:18:47   it just seems over and over again man Tim Cook is so freakin good like he is

01:18:54   - He is so good at his job.

01:18:57   He is, I mean, if anyone had any doubts,

01:19:00   watching what Apple has announced, what they've released,

01:19:05   and how Tim has handled things in the last year, wow.

01:19:09   Like, it is just so clear that, yeah,

01:19:13   he was the right guy for this job, no question.

01:19:16   - I'm still sorry about the 1664 and 28 storage split, though.

01:19:20   - No, that's fair.

01:19:22   Yeah, that's fair.

01:19:22   - And whether that lands on him

01:19:24   because the CEO or that lands on him because he had a closer influence. So there's still room for

01:19:30   improvement. Steve had some moves too. I mean, no, he totally, yeah, he totally, you know, they all

01:19:34   had their idiosyncrasies. It just like, I knew what I felt like I knew what Steve Jobs' issues

01:19:40   were and Tim Cook. I can only speculate at this point. Like, well, Apple did this thing I don't

01:19:44   like. Was that despite Tim Cook's better wishes or was he the one pushing for it or neither? And I

01:19:49   have no idea because I don't, I don't know. I don't know his personality yet. I think one thing we can

01:19:53   say about Tim Cook is that he is exceptionally deliberate. Like, he does not do anything

01:20:01   he doesn't want to do. He does not do anything without really thinking it through. Like,

01:20:07   he is extremely, you know, his actions, his statements, they're all very deliberate.

01:20:14   You know, it doesn't seem like he's holding back. Like, you know, even like when he, you

01:20:18   know, all the things like analyst calls and interviews and stuff like that, like, you

01:20:21   You can tell, he's not like holding back

01:20:25   and trying to calculate every move because he's afraid.

01:20:29   He's just, he is extremely deliberate in,

01:20:33   this is what I'm going to say,

01:20:35   this is how I'm going to say it.

01:20:37   I'm not going to talk about those other things.

01:20:39   Like I'm not gonna tell you about our TV unicorn

01:20:42   super watch thing, like just very deliberate.

01:20:46   That's the best word I can use.

01:20:48   - I think to wrap this up,

01:20:50   I think Jimmy Fallon had the best--

01:20:52   or his writing staff had the best one-liner about this.

01:20:55   Did you hear this joke?

01:20:55   It went around a lot on Twitter.

01:20:57   So Apple CEO Tim Cook officially came out as gay.

01:20:59   But knowing Apple and new Tim Cook

01:21:01   will probably be out next week.

01:21:02   [LAUGHTER]

01:21:05   Which is a good general purpose, because any Apple fan

01:21:07   would be like, Apple doesn't come out

01:21:09   with products every week.

01:21:09   But you get what they're getting at.

01:21:11   Seems like that to people who don't follow the tech industry

01:21:13   that every time you get an iPhone, the new one comes out

01:21:14   and you feel sad.

01:21:15   So the joke works broadly, but it's definitely

01:21:18   Tonight Show style joke. Yeah, it doesn't work to anybody who actually pays

01:21:22   attention. I was like, "Yeah, they release them every year at about the same time."

01:21:26   Doesn't work on nerds. You would say, "Uh, so, excuse me, but Apple releases iPhones

01:21:33   every year, so, yeah." Was that you trying to do Merlin's comic book guy? That was like

01:21:39   Lumbergh mixed with Van Hote. Yeah. Alright, we should probably be done.

01:21:47   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Hava, Backblaze, and Lynda.com, and we will

01:21:52   see you next week.

01:21:54   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:22:01   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:22:06   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:22:11   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:22:17   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:22:22   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:22:26   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:22:31   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:22:35   Auntie Marco Arment

01:22:38   S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A Syracuse

01:22:43   It's accidental

01:22:46   They didn't mean to

01:22:48   Accidental

01:22:51   Tech

01:22:53   Is we'll save Microsoft banned for next week, are you gonna get one I saw one so on the other day

01:23:01   Are they is it out people have them already? It's for sale. You can go to storm by right now

01:23:05   They announced it like 10 p.m. Like two days ago

01:23:08   It was

01:23:11   It's we'll talk about next week. I have things to say about it

01:23:16   My other exciting arrival not as exciting as Casey's but I did actually buy myself an SSD

01:23:21   Whoa, that's huge

01:23:24   Congratulations. I'm calling him Declan. Yeah

01:23:26   You should call him discipline. How about how about discless? Not nice?

01:23:31   I finally gave in because I just couldn't take it anymore

01:23:34   and but like and I knew it was gonna be painful and it was because like I had a 1.5 terabyte drive and

01:23:41   And the biggest SSD I think you can buy anywhere is one terabyte.

01:23:45   And so I'm replacing a 1.5 terabyte drive with a one terabyte SSD.

01:23:49   And I was spending a lot of time in Disk Inventory X trying to find where am I going to dump

01:23:54   the 200 or 300 gigs or whatever surplus that I had.

01:23:59   And just spinning disks are so damn slow.

01:24:01   The first thing to go is my virtual machines.

01:24:03   So I put them on another spinning disk and I'm pulling everything off and doing some

01:24:06   final clones of the drive before I pull it out.

01:24:08   and then I have to take that delta and put it somewhere.

01:24:12   And I was putting the delta down onto the Synology,

01:24:14   and then I was cloning that thing out.

01:24:15   And just it takes so long when there's lots of little files.

01:24:17   Like my old iPhoto library that I like to have there,

01:24:20   it was like 90 gigs, like a really old iPhoto library

01:24:22   when it used to be on my computer.

01:24:24   So many little files, and the spinning disk takes so long

01:24:27   to back them up, it just took forever.

01:24:29   But I think I'm out the other side now.

01:24:32   I've taken my old 1.5 terabyte drive

01:24:34   and just put it up on a shelf.

01:24:36   I'm gonna leave it there for a while

01:24:37   just to make sure I didn't lose anything on it.

01:24:40   Think I pulled everything else off onto the Synology

01:24:42   and I'm up and running and it's nice.

01:24:45   I got a Samsung 850 Pro, it went all out.

01:24:48   It's just everything is so much faster.

01:24:50   So I think I got another year on this.

01:24:51   Basically, I've basically decided

01:24:53   that I'm not gonna get the 5K iMac.

01:24:54   I'm gonna cruise with this for another year.

01:24:56   - Wait for Broadway, see what happens.

01:24:58   - Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do, more or less.

01:25:00   - Same deal with the iPhone.

01:25:01   - No, I'm gonna get that.

01:25:03   I haven't gotten it yet, but I will.

01:25:04   - I'm gonna win this bet, you'll see.

01:25:06   - Oh.

01:25:08   - Roughly how much is the, what's the SSD out of curiosity?

01:25:10   - It's like 600 bucks, it's expensive.

01:25:12   - For a terabyte?

01:25:13   - For a terabyte, yeah.

01:25:15   You can get a terabyte cheaper if you buy

01:25:17   like last year's model or like a lesser,

01:25:20   the 850 Pro is like the new hotness.

01:25:23   Anatec has a good review of it.

01:25:25   It's not that much better than any of the older ones,

01:25:27   but I'm like, look, I'm just gonna buy it.

01:25:28   Like I'm not, I'm gonna be using this SSD for a long time.

01:25:31   I'm gonna carry it with me across my next machines, right?

01:25:34   I'll buy one of those little, you know,

01:25:36   bus powered cases for it or something,

01:25:37   which is a great thing you can do with an SSD really easily.

01:25:40   And with USB 3, it's not, you know, it's not that slow

01:25:42   and I'll end up using it as a backup drive and stuff,

01:25:44   but it's nice and fast.

01:25:46   Now it feels like my work computer.

01:25:48   Nice and fast and quiet.

01:25:51   - Yeah, all those spinning disks,

01:25:52   you don't have to hear anymore.

01:25:53   - Clock and a clock and a clock and a clock, oh yeah.

01:25:55   That was terrible.

01:25:57   So my reboot times are way faster now.

01:25:59   - Nice.

01:26:00   - Gotta have priorities.

01:26:01   - I'm about to pass out, can we do titles?

01:26:03   (laughing)

01:26:03   Why, are you tired for some reason, Casey?

01:26:05   - Oh my God, it hit me like a wall

01:26:07   like 10 or 20 minutes ago.

01:26:08   I'm dying, obviously.

01:26:09   - Oh, don't worry, you'll have a solid sleep tonight.

01:26:11   - Oh yeah, totally.

01:26:13   - At least you don't have to go to work, then.

01:26:14   I think after my second was born,

01:26:17   I think I took two days off work.

01:26:19   Like the first one, you take all the pictures,

01:26:21   take all the time off.

01:26:22   The second one's like, yeah, yeah, another baby, whatever.

01:26:23   We'll see how Marco goes.

01:26:25   - Okay, so quick aside before we do titles.

01:26:27   So we got a Micro Two Thirds camera,

01:26:31   the one that Sean Blanc recommended,

01:26:32   And I really, really like it.

01:26:34   Olympus OMDEM10, I think.

01:26:37   That's probably slightly wrong.

01:26:38   But anyway, look at the Tools and Toys website.

01:26:40   They have the worst model names.

01:26:41   They really do.

01:26:42   You wrote a blog post about it, right?

01:26:43   Yeah, that's right.

01:26:44   I wrote a blog post about it.

01:26:46   So anyway, I really like it.

01:26:48   But I've been snapping photos incessantly.

01:26:50   And it's funny because as I'm taking

01:26:52   like 35 photos of him sleeping and doing nothing,

01:26:55   I'm thinking to myself, there's no chance

01:26:57   I'm ever going to look at this picture again.

01:26:59   Ching, ching, ching, ching, ching.

01:27:00   I'm already that parent that's taking photos of him doing nothing, and there's no point

01:27:07   in it whatsoever.

01:27:08   So you can extrapolate that out, again, with your organization where you're putting your

01:27:12   photos into folders.

01:27:13   Yep.

01:27:14   That you throw by day.

01:27:16   That's out the window.

01:27:17   Yeah.

01:27:18   Start graphing your number of photos taken per day.

01:27:20   I haven't looked since yesterday at how many pictures I've taken of Declan.

01:27:25   And to be fair, I'm shooting in RAW and JPEG, which is also probably silly, but nevertheless.

01:27:32   And of course, there's like a gazillion duplicates of him sleeping where he moved three centimeters

01:27:38   across 34 pictures.

01:27:40   But in the two days that he has been alive, I've taken by my estimation somewhere between

01:27:46   definitely more than six, I would guess closer to 10 gigs of pictures, our freaking wedding,

01:27:53   The photographer took about 10 gigs worth of pictures.

01:27:58   So I am so screwed.

01:27:59   - Well, to be fair, the photographer's pictures

01:28:01   were smaller each.

01:28:02   - Yeah, that's true.

01:28:04   But I'm so screwed.

01:28:05   - You guys are killing me.

01:28:06   My wedding photographer took pictures on film.

01:28:08   - You're old.

01:28:11   You are definitely old. - So old.

01:28:12   And we had to pay a bazillion dollars

01:28:16   to get them professionally scanned too

01:28:18   and eventually got around to that.

01:28:19   So now they are in my photo library.

01:28:21   We also have the negatives.

01:28:23   All your digital pictures will be gone, but our wedding will be preserved in these negatives.

01:28:27   My parents are actually going and taking boxes of VHS tapes to Costco to get them to put

01:28:34   them on DVD.

01:28:35   And I'm sure that's—well, I don't know the details in terms of cost, but I do know

01:28:39   that it's heinously expensive.

01:28:41   Well, it's not—that's not—like, my parents did that with their—maybe you don't

01:28:44   have to do the eight—like, eight millimeter.

01:28:46   It was an eight millimeter?

01:28:47   Yeah, but anyway, that was—anyway, they transferred that, and that looks terrible,

01:28:51   right?

01:28:52   like these are high quality photos,

01:28:53   even though it was film.

01:28:54   And so you want to get them like high quality scans

01:28:57   and that is expensive and nerve wracking

01:28:59   because like you send those off and that's all you've got.

01:29:02   - Yeah, that I think is the worst.

01:29:04   Like we have like some old VHS tapes

01:29:06   that we'd like to get transferred,

01:29:07   but like I'm not crazy about the idea of like,

01:29:09   you know, mailing them off to somewhere

01:29:10   and maybe I should do like a raid kind of setup.

01:29:12   Like I'll send like one to one place,

01:29:14   I want to another place.

01:29:15   So send them all individually.

01:29:17   - Nice.

01:29:18   All right, so let's do some titles.

01:29:20   So Casey, I have to give you a photographic tip,

01:29:23   well, two tips.

01:29:24   Number one, the secret to good photography

01:29:26   is lots of bad photography.

01:29:28   - Yeah, well, still I'm getting there.

01:29:30   - Yeah, like, it will, no, but like, even,

01:29:32   like, it will, you will need to take a lot of pictures

01:29:35   to get one great one, and that's fine.

01:29:37   That's what every photographer does.

01:29:38   They just don't talk about it.

01:29:39   Similarly, I suggest that you get as good as you can

01:29:44   at capturing motion while Declan is not doing

01:29:47   a lot of motion. - Yeah.

01:29:48   because kids move very, very quickly.

01:29:51   I've never used that camera before.

01:29:53   I assume it has interchangeable lenses

01:29:54   like most micro four thirds.

01:29:56   Pay attention when you select lenses

01:29:58   to their focusing speeds because that matters a lot.

01:30:03   - That's exactly why I ended up convincing myself.

01:30:06   Well, there's actually two reasons I convinced myself

01:30:08   to get a lens that was, I think,

01:30:11   almost as much as the body, if not more than the body,

01:30:13   which for someone who's never had a fancy camera,

01:30:15   that's like, are you kidding me?

01:30:16   I am spending more on a couple pieces of glass than I am the actual camera itself.

01:30:21   Anyway, one of the reasons was because it focuses silly quickly.

01:30:27   Although I haven't really gotten a grasp of how to do shutter priority on the camera.

01:30:34   I need to work on that.

01:30:35   So, crank the shutter speed way the hell up, or at least I think I do.

01:30:39   I'm not a very good photographer, obviously.

01:30:41   But the other reason I wanted to get the lens that we ended up getting, and I could tell

01:30:44   I'll tell you what it is, but I forget.

01:30:45   I just know it goes really, really low, f-stop.

01:30:49   It's like 1.4, 1.8.

01:30:51   - Right, you've discovered blur, yep.

01:30:52   - Oh, God, Bokeh, or whatever it's called, B-O-K-E-H.

01:30:56   Oh, it's my favorite thing in the world.

01:30:57   - We're gonna have everybody telling us

01:30:58   how to pronounce, please don't.

01:31:00   - Please don't.

01:31:01   - Yeah, I don't actually know the correct pronunciation,

01:31:02   either, I've only ever read it.

01:31:04   - I've heard Bokeh, it's based on a Japanese word,

01:31:08   and so we're gonna argue about how to pronounce it,

01:31:10   it doesn't matter, anyway.

01:31:11   - Nobody cares how to pronounce it,

01:31:12   don't even bother emailing us.

01:31:13   But yeah, that thing, my favorite thing in the world.

01:31:16   - Yeah, also consider infant photography,

01:31:18   like Marco was saying.

01:31:19   Practice because the, you know,

01:31:22   infants are terrible little pink worms,

01:31:26   or harp, or anything, right?

01:31:27   Like, they don't do anything exciting.

01:31:30   If they do anything that looks cute, it's accidental.

01:31:32   Like, it's gas, it's whatever, right?

01:31:35   What you're gearing up for is honing your skills

01:31:37   for when they turn two or three

01:31:39   and start doing the super cute stuff intentionally.

01:31:41   and by then you'll be an old pro at it.

01:31:43   So this is all like batting practice,

01:31:46   like figure out your camera, figure out photography,

01:31:50   figure out the best places in your house to take pictures

01:31:52   in terms of natural lighting and everything like that,

01:31:54   and you have plenty of practice.

01:31:56   And you'll get one or two good shots

01:31:57   where the kid looks like he's smiling

01:31:58   or making a funny face,

01:31:59   or looks like a movie star from the 30s or whatever.

01:32:03   - Yeah, generally speaking, if you ever use the flash,

01:32:05   you're probably doing it wrong.

01:32:08   And yeah, so the more light you can get,

01:32:10   the better as long as it doesn't come from a flash

01:32:13   that's on the camera.

01:32:14   And I don't think you're gonna be getting

01:32:15   into remote flash setup, so yeah.

01:32:17   As long as it doesn't come from a flash,

01:32:19   you want a ton of light.

01:32:20   Generally speaking, now that you have a wide aperture lens

01:32:25   and you're gonna be obsessed with blur for a while,

01:32:27   keep in mind that while blurred background does look good

01:32:31   in most cases, your subject should always be completely

01:32:35   in focus for the most part.

01:32:36   I mean, yes, this is a rule photographers can break

01:32:38   once they know how to break the rules,

01:32:39   But the most common thing that I see,

01:32:42   and I went through this phase briefly.

01:32:43   - And their nose is in focus.

01:32:45   - Yeah, like you step it down to like F1.4

01:32:48   on your new prime lens, and yeah,

01:32:50   you have like a centimeter of depth in focus.

01:32:53   And literally, yeah, it's like just the nose

01:32:55   and the rest of their face or just their eyes

01:32:56   and their nose is blurry.

01:32:58   Like that looks really annoying.

01:33:01   And like the blurriness of the background

01:33:03   will look cool temporarily until you realize,

01:33:05   oh, I can't actually see any of the subjects

01:33:08   except for this one centimeter slice of them.

01:33:11   (laughs)

01:33:12   - Not to mention if Aaron is behind holding the baby,

01:33:15   like Aaron is completely blown out.

01:33:17   Sorry, you're outside my one inch thick focus plane.

01:33:21   - Yeah, and I think that I am doing that.

01:33:23   I am guilty of that for sure.

01:33:25   And some of that is because I really want that

01:33:28   bokeh, bokeh, bokeh, whatever it is.

01:33:31   - It's pronounced hovah.

01:33:32   (laughs)

01:33:33   - But either way, I gotta get better about that.

01:33:36   But it is really nice to have an actual camera

01:33:40   rather than the iPhone,

01:33:41   as much as I do love the iPhone's pictures.

01:33:44   And I gotta tell you,

01:33:46   I am not used to having any sort of physical shutter,

01:33:49   and it is really damn satisfying having that shutter,

01:33:53   that machinery move about in your hand

01:33:56   as you're clicking the shutter,

01:33:58   whatever the shutter button.

01:33:59   It's deceivingly satisfying.

01:34:02   For someone who grew up with physical cameras,

01:34:04   with film cameras.

01:34:05   Yeah, so Micro Four Thirds, does it have a viewfinder

01:34:09   and a mirror?

01:34:10   - No, there's no mirror, it's mirrorless.

01:34:12   So he's not hearing the mirror clash.

01:34:14   - So you're just hearing the shutter.

01:34:16   - Correct. - Okay.

01:34:17   - Mine is like Marco's car,

01:34:19   where it just plays a shutter sound from a little--

01:34:21   (laughing)

01:34:23   - You don't turn that off?

01:34:24   That's like the first thing?

01:34:25   - No, I leave it on because I wanna know

01:34:27   when the shots go off.

01:34:29   Like maybe I'm, again, an old person.

01:34:31   I need to hear that sound, right?

01:34:33   Otherwise, I just feel like I don't.

01:34:35   It's like the people, I guess it's the same

01:34:36   as the people leave key click on.

01:34:37   I do not leave key click on.

01:34:39   I don't understand people who do.

01:34:40   But for cameras, I mean I guess it's the same thing.

01:34:43   I have an established history of cameras

01:34:45   that make a noise when you press a button.

01:34:46   Like they have an established history of keyboards.

01:34:48   But I just feel like when the keyboard's on the screen,

01:34:50   it's not close enough.

01:34:51   Whereas the cameras I held that made that noise

01:34:53   back in the day felt like these cameras.

01:34:55   Like they were physical things.

01:34:56   This is not a camera on a screen.

01:34:57   Like I would never, like the shutter sound

01:35:00   on my, you know, the iOS camera,

01:35:02   I could do without that.

01:35:03   But I don't know.

01:35:04   I can't believe-- this is a shocking revelation

01:35:06   that you leave on an artificial shutter sound

01:35:10   effect on a camera.

01:35:11   I would never have guessed that.

01:35:12   I mean, it doesn't have to be a shutter sound.

01:35:14   I just need--

01:35:14   I think I just need to have something, especially

01:35:16   since my camera's-- like, I have cheap cameras, right?

01:35:18   So they're slow.

01:35:19   Like, it doesn't take the-- it's not ready to take a picture

01:35:22   immediately.

01:35:22   The flash takes a long time to recharge.

01:35:24   Even without the flash, it takes a long time for the image

01:35:25   processor to be ready.

01:35:26   Like, it's not a pro-level camera.

01:35:28   I don't have, like, real cameras.

01:35:30   So I need that little clickiness to know

01:35:32   when the picture went off.

01:35:34   And you know when I can take the next one. So what do you what do you have now?

01:35:38   I thought you had like I would we have we had I can uh,

01:35:41   We had a canon 5d mark 2 for my brother's wedding. Like he borrowed it

01:35:45   He borrowed it from mit. Don't tell anyone. Um

01:35:48   And uh and I had that for like a couple days surrounding his wedding to take pictures with

01:35:54   And I shouldn't have done that because it lets you know what a real camera is like, you know, I go, you know, but

01:35:59   We got our first digital camera. We got our kid and we did have point shoots and then I moved up

01:36:04   to super zooms, which is what I stick to, which is kind of like a really big zoom lens that's not

01:36:10   interchangeable on a camera with a sensor that's not really that big. But I use it for when we go

01:36:17   to the beach. I can get the ocean pictures where the kids are in the waves and I'm standing up to

01:36:20   my waist in the water. I can still get pictures of them when they're out farther. Yeah, but you're

01:36:24   12 feet tall. Super zooms are very versatile. They're not going to take really good pictures,

01:36:29   but they are very versatile for situations where you can't zoom with your feet, but just frequently with kids like I can snag my

01:36:36   Kid from across the auditorium when he's up on stage

01:36:38   You know doing something or across a field or at family events wherever and sitting around in the backyard

01:36:44   I can grab a close-up of someone who is on the other side of the yard from me that looks really good

01:36:48   Because it's bright sunlight because the camera, you know camera doesn't have good low light quality

01:36:52   So that's what I've been sticking with the super zooms and super zooms are getting almost kind of respectable

01:36:57   Not still not going into like an interchangeable lens camera, but the recent super zooms especially that new Sony one

01:37:03   I forget the the model number for it have

01:37:06   Somewhat decent sensors sort of on the level with the micro four-thirds things or sometimes even better

01:37:12   Attached to a non interchangeable lens that app that is actually okay is actually pretty good

01:37:17   You know, so it has served me well well enough anyway, especially with the zooms like I was gonna say if you want to see

01:37:25   good

01:37:27   childhood photography

01:37:29   follow the the

01:37:31   Morgan's I don't know how to pronounce her last name. Yeah

01:37:34   And whatever is they have they have lots of cute kids and they take again. They they post some really cute pictures

01:37:40   They have it. They have a new baby as well and they they demonstrate how to take good pictures of a baby who is otherwise

01:37:46   Not very interesting because you know, they just sort of sit there although their baby

01:37:51   I think he's like three months old now and he now he's starting making real faces. He is a character

01:37:56   Don't look at Adam Liscor's baby though. Oh, I've seen his baby. Yes. He's the cutest baby entire planet and the Sun. Yep

01:38:03   Yep, that baby's ridiculously so you look at your baby. You're like, why don't you look like baby sandwich kills us every time?

01:38:10   Unbelievable as a little pumpkin head. I can't stand it

01:38:13   See, this is this is John. We told you everyone you both agree. This is like the cutest baby in the world totally agreed

01:38:20   Oh, it's so true

01:38:21   It is absolutely true, but that that you can tell from the sound of your voice that you're just dying in the best possible way

01:38:27   He's adorable. He hurts me when I look at him like stop being so and then he's got the little videos where he does a dancing

01:38:32   And everything. Yeah

01:38:34   Yeah, all right. Can we do titles before I die?

01:38:37   You have no idea what you're in for it. I guess this is so cute. No, I don't

01:38:41   I'm gonna go pass out and by pass out

01:38:43   I mean get woken up by my screaming baby as soon as I shut my eyes. Yeah, but he's so cute. It's worth it

01:38:48   Oh, no, I'm not complaining babies aren't that cute?

01:38:50   Babies aren't that cute until they until they start, you know what they're like like in the first the first month. They're just well, I

01:38:58   My first baby was was terrible yours

01:39:01   Not sound like he's terrible, but still

01:39:04   It's a Simpsons reference for Casey. I'll preload it for you. We called our first baby screamer pillar

01:39:11   Nope, nope. Well, anyway, if you google for a simpsons screamer pillar your front it's so hard to find Simpsons video clips

01:39:18   I wish there was like a clearinghouse for them.

01:39:19   But anyway, yeah, Screaming Pillar.

01:39:22   It was fitting.

01:39:23   - Did you like The Simpsons movie?

01:39:24   - It was all right.

01:39:26   - I don't remember, but I thought it was okay.

01:39:27   And that was back when I actually watched The Simpsons.

01:39:29   - Yeah, the movie wasn't better than a good episode.

01:39:32   - Was the movie the one with Pinchy?

01:39:34   No, that was an episode.

01:39:35   - No, that was a good one though.

01:39:36   I quote that one a lot.

01:39:37   - Pinchy is a good one.

01:39:38   All right, I'm really going to bed.

01:39:39   And by going to bed, I mean staying up all night.

01:39:41   So you guys, as you wake up all refreshed

01:39:43   and happy tomorrow morning, think of me.

01:39:47   - I can't even say that and actually like play like--

01:39:49   - You can't because we've been there and done that.

01:39:51   - Not only that, but I'm so excited to like not sleep.

01:39:54   I will take this problem over any of the problems

01:39:56   we were running into for three years, so.

01:39:57   - I gotta say, just as you, another thing to carry you over

01:40:01   like you tried so hard to have this baby

01:40:03   and that will help carry you over.

01:40:04   The other thing is what you can look forward to is like,

01:40:07   there will come a point, I mean you're already

01:40:09   kind of at it now, but like eventually you'll,

01:40:11   you'll go back to work, you'll become more routine.

01:40:14   I just remember when my first child was two or three

01:40:19   or whatever, I would just be so excited to come home

01:40:22   because I knew that's where my children were.

01:40:24   I was like, coming home is like Christmas every day.

01:40:25   You get there, and the kids would be there,

01:40:27   or the one kid would be there.

01:40:28   Seriously, it was like I would realize that I was at work,

01:40:30   and I was excited to go home because my kids were there.

01:40:34   The same way you'd be excited to go downstairs for open

01:40:36   Christmas presents.

01:40:37   So think about that as a screaming baby is in your arms,

01:40:43   you're pacing back and forth.