87: Not an Accurate Representation of My Mousing Skills


00:00:00   That's how long it takes me to reboot.

00:00:01   So nine minutes.

00:00:03   Yep.

00:00:03   Although I think there might still

00:00:04   be some spinners on some Chrome tabs and some Finder windows.

00:00:07   Finder windows are usually the last things

00:00:09   to get spinners off of them.

00:00:10   Are you referring to those wake from sleep spinners,

00:00:13   like since Mavericks or since Line, whatever?

00:00:16   No.

00:00:16   The spinners that are in the upper right corner of a Finder

00:00:19   window when it's trying to just display the contents.

00:00:21   Not the, here is a fake screenshot of a window

00:00:23   and I'm going to put a giant spinner or not those.

00:00:25   I've never even seen the ones you're talking about,

00:00:27   I don't think.

00:00:28   I know, because you have SSDs.

00:00:29   I don't see him at work either.

00:00:31   You get spinning disks and about four million files on them,

00:00:34   literally, and you get to see all sorts of spinners.

00:00:37   You get to see Chrome tabs die with the frowny face

00:00:39   because they just assume the world is broken.

00:00:41   They give up.

00:00:42   You get to see dock icons stop bouncing in the dock.

00:00:45   Have you seen that lately?

00:00:46   No.

00:00:47   So it's something most people don't even know about.

00:00:49   It's so bogged down that they can't bounce.

00:00:52   No.

00:00:52   So there's a certain-- I don't know

00:00:53   if it's a number of bounces or a number of time,

00:00:55   but at a certain point, the OS gives up animating the bounce.

00:00:58   It's just like, it doesn't mean the app is hung.

00:01:01   The app may eventually launch, but it's just like,

00:01:03   look, this is just taking too long

00:01:04   and it just gives up bouncing.

00:01:05   There's still no light under it.

00:01:07   It's still in the process of launching.

00:01:08   Eventually the little indicator light will appear under it.

00:01:11   But I see it all the time.

00:01:12   - That's amazing.

00:01:14   - Part of the reason I haven't upgraded my machine

00:01:15   is because it's so unusable because it has platter drives

00:01:19   and I just don't want to deal with it.

00:01:20   - I've almost bought an SSD so many times, so many.

00:01:23   - Well, actually, if you want a good deal on a new Mac Pro.

00:01:27   - Oh God, save it for the show.

00:01:28   - I told you, $5.

00:01:30   - Ugh.

00:01:31   - That's a good deal.

00:01:32   - Someday I will take that offer.

00:01:33   - No, I won't want it then.

00:01:35   - If you're willing to wait long enough.

00:01:36   - Right.

00:01:37   - On an infinite timescale.

00:01:38   - Oh Jesus, here we go.

00:01:40   - That's not how that works.

00:01:41   (laughing)

00:01:43   (electronic beeping)

00:01:44   I X'd out all the items in follow up except for one,

00:01:47   because we do have a lot of follow up

00:01:48   and I'm trying to trim it for today's show.

00:01:51   - Good, good.

00:01:52   - The one thing I wanted to follow up on was

00:01:54   on last week's show, which was so long ago now,

00:01:56   because we delayed the show for the Apple event, I was excited about the fact that the

00:02:00   GameCube controller adapter for the Wii U was going to let me use my GameCube controller

00:02:05   for any game on the Wii U that also supported the Wii U Pro controller.

00:02:09   And when I saw that on some random website, I didn't believe it, and I said, "I need confirmation

00:02:14   of this."

00:02:15   And the website linked back to Nintendo's official website that's owned by the company,

00:02:20   and right there on plain text on Nintendo's own website, it said that, "Yes, you can use

00:02:24   your GameCube controller with this adapter for any Wii U game that supports the Wii U

00:02:27   Pro controller. And I was very excited and we recorded last week's podcast. And then

00:02:32   right after the podcast was over, or maybe it was like the next day, but shortly thereafter,

00:02:37   Nintendo itself and all the articles that had cited Nintendo itself issued a correction

00:02:41   that, oh, no, just kidding. Actually, you can only use it for Smash Brothers. Sorry

00:02:44   about that. So I was sad.

00:02:46   Well, it makes me sad that you were sad.

00:02:48   I mean, like, that's just the worst ever. You know, it's kind of like these rumors where

00:02:52   You don't trust it until you see it.

00:02:53   It's like seeing something on apple.com saying,

00:02:55   you know, you can use the new iMac

00:02:59   as a retina display for your Mac Pro.

00:03:01   And you have like a day of that where you're super excited.

00:03:03   And then the next day Apple says,

00:03:04   oh, actually, no, you can't, sorry.

00:03:06   That was a mistake on our website.

00:03:08   - Nice.

00:03:09   All right, do we wanna talk about the event first

00:03:11   or do we wanna talk about your review first?

00:03:14   - Come on, you missed the chance to say,

00:03:15   so how's the review?

00:03:17   (laughing)

00:03:19   - You're right.

00:03:19   - You guys can pick,

00:03:20   but I think we have enough time for both of them

00:03:22   because we've only done that one item of follow-up,

00:03:24   so you can pick which one you wanna talk about first.

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00:06:21   - All right, so we are recording this on Friday night,

00:06:25   the 17th of October, and yesterday,

00:06:28   there was another Apple event,

00:06:30   this time talking about a lot of stuff we already knew about

00:06:34   and then some new iPads.

00:06:36   And I think the first thing I should note

00:06:38   is that the streaming for me,

00:06:41   and I was streaming to my iPad mini that is now sort of but not really old.

00:06:48   No, no, it's new. It's now the iPad mini 2. It got upgraded.

00:06:51   Yeah, that's true. It is new yet the same.

00:06:53   Anyway, so it's streaming to my iPad mini which is connected via the HDMI adapter to a TV in my office.

00:07:01   That worked pretty much flawlessly the entire time.

00:07:03   And that was a welcome change from the utter disaster that was the iPhone keynote.

00:07:09   And I wanted to ask you guys,

00:07:10   do you think that's because nobody cared

00:07:12   about the iPad keynote and there were a lot fewer viewers?

00:07:16   Or do you think that Apple actually got their stuff together

00:07:18   or a little of column A, little of column B?

00:07:21   - Oh, I'd say it's definitely a lot of column A

00:07:23   and maybe a little bit of column B.

00:07:25   I mean, every year the iPhone event is always by far

00:07:29   the more important and the more watched and listened to one.

00:07:34   Like if you ask people who run the big sites

00:07:36   who do live vlogs, they'll tell you the same thing

00:07:38   where the iPhone event is by far the bigger event

00:07:42   of the year.

00:07:42   And people do care about the iPad and stuff,

00:07:45   but it's a lot fewer non-nerds who will actually

00:07:49   go to the trouble of watching the stream live.

00:07:52   - Yeah, last time they had not just performance problems,

00:07:55   but just even if there was only one person listening,

00:07:57   they would have heard someone speaking in Chinese

00:07:59   over half of the thing, right?

00:08:00   So that's not a performance problem.

00:08:01   That's a you don't have your wires crossed kind of problem.

00:08:04   - Yeah.

00:08:05   - Or do have your wires crossed.

00:08:06   And so this was at the town hall,

00:08:08   And you got to think as a home field advantage there where it's their database their database their network connection their network people all their own

00:08:15   infrastructure

00:08:16   Their video guys where it seemed like there was a TV truck that perhaps was not affiliated with Apple

00:08:22   That was involved in the iWatch event

00:08:24   I can still call it the iWatch event because we called it that before we knew what the thing would be called

00:08:29   So it's gonna be forever be the iWatch event anyway

00:08:31   I don't know if that's the case

00:08:34   But it just seemed like when they that are in the Flint Center and this other big venue

00:08:38   They don't have control over every part of the experience of broadcasting and it just fell apart

00:08:43   Whereas when they do it in their little town hall thing or wherever they did the the iPad event they control everything

00:08:48   So yeah, no problems with streaming here. I had a running on two different streams

00:08:52   Then the game I played was try to get a stream that's farther ahead because one stream would be like

00:08:56   You know seven seconds ahead of the other one and I'd reload it just for the hell of it to see if it would jump

00:09:01   Forward but other than that no drops

00:09:03   Yeah, you know this time this event and the iPhone event I watched in the office and

00:09:08   This time what I did was I made sure that I had tweetbot

00:09:14   Always visible because I'm a really heavy user of them

00:09:18   What is it spaces where you know?

00:09:19   you have multiple virtual desktops and I made sure that we thought was always visible and I engaged the

00:09:25   Pin the timeline to the top thing or I forget I forget there's a better way of describing that

00:09:30   But anyways, so basically as all these tweets come in the timeline is always automatically scrolling to the top and that was

00:09:39   both the best and worst way to watch this keynote because I felt like I was thoroughly entertained by

00:09:47   Watching all these tweets go by with the exception of a thousand freaking dogs, which I was really bored of very quickly

00:09:53   but then again, so were the dogs and

00:09:56   And so it was almost more work watching the Twitter stream and all and I was almost more interested watching the Twitter stream than I

00:10:02   Was the event which probably speaks to the quality of the event?

00:10:05   Well when you saw them doing just like demo after demo of things we've seen before let's go over the adoption numbers

00:10:11   Let's show you what's in these different OS's and like not just mentioning them or putting up bullet points in a slide

00:10:16   But like here, let's show you iOS 8 again

00:10:18   It's like are you kidding me you knew there was not going to be a big exciting one more thing at the end of this

00:10:23   keynote it was just going to be

00:10:25   this little dog and pony show and then all the stuff that we knew was coming in, which is fine.

00:10:30   But I don't know why you need, I guess they feel like they have a captive audience,

00:10:34   but why do you need to re-demonstrate iOS 8 and Yosemite that long for this type of thing? Just

00:10:40   get in, get out, get done. Anyway, it wasn't that bad. I thought it was fine.

00:10:44   - All right, so they did all these demos. I do think that Federiki, and I've said this several

00:10:50   several times in the past, is my favorite presenter.

00:10:53   He pulls off the really dorky kind of dad jokes,

00:10:57   I think, better than anyone else.

00:10:59   I think Q tries to, and it doesn't always land well,

00:11:03   which is probably how it would be

00:11:04   if I was presenting these jokes,

00:11:06   but nevertheless, I love Craig.

00:11:09   I think he does a wonderful job presenting.

00:11:11   I know I've said this a thousand times,

00:11:12   but he's so much better now than he ever used to be,

00:11:15   and I will never forget that first presentation,

00:11:18   and gosh, he's so much better now.

00:11:20   It's almost, you could almost say that it's,

00:11:22   that I appreciate him more having seen

00:11:24   that first presentation in like 2011, 2012.

00:11:26   But I thought it was all really good.

00:11:29   And I thought the call with Stephen Colbert,

00:11:32   as these silly, ridiculous calls go,

00:11:34   was one of the better ones.

00:11:36   - So who's obsessed with the celebrities?

00:11:38   Who's, do we think it's Tim Cook

00:11:40   is obsessed with the celebrities?

00:11:42   - I don't know.

00:11:43   It's weird.

00:11:44   - So I mean, someone is,

00:11:45   because Steve Jobs was not in general.

00:11:47   Is Steve Jobs like to have a musical guest at the end

00:11:49   and he would schmooze with them and all that stuff.

00:11:50   That was his thing, but really limited amount

00:11:54   of stunt casting in the keynote,

00:11:57   because Steve Jobs was a star of those.

00:11:59   He felt like he should be there,

00:12:00   but now it's like, you just come to expect it now.

00:12:04   And I thought the Colbert thing was fine.

00:12:07   The problem with having Colbert on is even over a phone,

00:12:10   which I couldn't believe they did it over a phone.

00:12:11   He wasn't over, it didn't sound like he was over

00:12:13   a voiceover IP because the quality was terrible.

00:12:15   Like he was on a POTS line, it sounded like, really bad.

00:12:19   But even over that, you can see, for the three or four little stilted lines he had to read,

00:12:24   it was like, "See guys, this is what an actual performer is like."

00:12:27   I mean, I don't blame their executives at Apple.

00:12:29   Like, they're not actors, they're not comedians, which is probably why they shouldn't do comedy

00:12:33   skits in the middle of these things.

00:12:34   Like, don't plan it out, be spontaneously funny or pretend to be spontaneously funny.

00:12:38   Don't go into a skit.

00:12:39   But Colbert's line delivery, even when reading this silly script, was so much better than

00:12:44   the other side of the conversation.

00:12:45   So don't bring real comedians on it,

00:12:47   just highlights how you are not a real comedian.

00:12:49   But I thought it was fine.

00:12:50   All the people who were like Marco just went,

00:12:52   "Ugh, I know a lot of people were cringing

00:12:53   and couldn't handle the embarrassment of it."

00:12:55   It's like, whatever.

00:12:56   I mean, even the silly thing with Bono,

00:12:58   like that was painful because both Tim and Bono

00:13:02   are not natural in the environment of trying to,

00:13:05   whatever, it's like exposition plus comedy plus drama

00:13:08   plus whatever they're trying to do,

00:13:09   it is not their strengths.

00:13:11   Stephen Colbert was funny.

00:13:13   Craig was fine.

00:13:14   The little handshake thing I thought was funny.

00:13:16   You know, Eddy Cue not being able to do it.

00:13:18   The two guys who did do the handshake were funny.

00:13:20   - Oh, I forgot about that.

00:13:21   That was even worse.

00:13:22   - I thought that was cute.

00:13:23   And like I said, like I tweeted when it was going on,

00:13:26   showing the rumor site with the,

00:13:28   the spaceship campus taking off.

00:13:29   That was dumb, but I got,

00:13:31   I just was so excited to think about,

00:13:33   someone had to go to their graphics department and say,

00:13:35   "We need a fake rumor."

00:13:36   Make up a fake rumor and then make an awesome graphic

00:13:38   where like the quality of that fake flying

00:13:41   campus building room or thing was so much higher than you.

00:13:44   It's like a lot of effort in town going into a throwaway gag.

00:13:48   That's that's an area where they could help like Colbert and The Daily Show,

00:13:52   because those guys got to put together some motion graphics

00:13:54   or some little picture to be up to the right of the talking head in five minutes.

00:13:58   Whereas Apple, some poor guy at Apple probably sweated over that flying

00:14:01   circular building. But anyway, I whatever I don't get too hung up on

00:14:06   that part of the thing.

00:14:08   and we didn't expect great things out of this presentation

00:14:11   anyway, and so we got what we got, right?

00:14:14   - I would rather have a presentation

00:14:16   that's 10 minutes shorter than have one that includes

00:14:20   awkward and really painfully unfunny skits,

00:14:24   'cause they don't need that.

00:14:25   - You aren't amused a little bit by them?

00:14:27   Like, if I was gonna cut stuff,

00:14:28   I would cut that intro video showing everybody

00:14:31   happy to get iPhones, never do that again,

00:14:33   as someone tweeted, and I agree.

00:14:34   - Yeah, we've seen it too many times.

00:14:35   - I would cut all the demos of things

00:14:37   we've already seen demoed,

00:14:38   because this is a low, you know,

00:14:39   not many people are watching this.

00:14:41   The people who are watching it

00:14:42   already know what iOS 8 is about.

00:14:44   Don't re-demo that.

00:14:45   Maybe do a little recap of Yosemite, fine.

00:14:47   And then I would keep whatever the best segment was.

00:14:51   So maybe keep the Colbert thing in

00:14:52   and then drop the other one.

00:14:53   But, you know, I just think someone has,

00:14:58   someone likes celebrities.

00:15:00   And I don't know if it's all the way at the top,

00:15:02   Tim Cook likes them or as individual VPs like them,

00:15:05   or they just want to find excuses

00:15:07   to talk to their favorite celebrities,

00:15:08   which I wouldn't blame them for.

00:15:10   Hey, you know, what advantages are there

00:15:12   of being a senior vice president or CEO of Apple?

00:15:16   Well, I can meet all my favorite celebrities.

00:15:18   All right, go.

00:15:19   (laughing)

00:15:19   - I figure it's gotta be Tim Cook,

00:15:21   because you can see like when Tim is involved,

00:15:24   you can see he's like giddy about like

00:15:26   how incredibly happy he is.

00:15:28   And like, no one else is nearly as excited as he is

00:15:31   about what's happening, you know?

00:15:32   Like, I think it's definitely like you could tell like,

00:15:35   you know, Cook is the one who's really into celebrities.

00:15:36   and that's why they keep happening.

00:15:38   But man, I wish they wouldn't,

00:15:40   because it just doesn't work.

00:15:42   It's boring, it's not funny, it's painful,

00:15:45   and it detracts from the presentation.

00:15:47   It detracts from the whole reason we're there.

00:15:50   These are good presentations.

00:15:52   They have good things to announce.

00:15:54   There's no reason to bring them down

00:15:56   in this weird, awkward way.

00:15:57   I don't know, I don't see why it's worth it.

00:16:02   - See, I disagree.

00:16:03   I'm more with Jon in that

00:16:06   Although they work kind of silly and lame,

00:16:08   at least it shows that Apple has a little bit of personality

00:16:11   and it's not just a completely boring, stodgy,

00:16:14   this is what we've come up with, this is the new iPad,

00:16:18   this is the new iMac, hooray.

00:16:20   Like, I don't know, I felt like it at least added some color,

00:16:23   probably got beaten to death,

00:16:25   but it's at least add some amount of entertainment.

00:16:28   And Colbert's line about, you know what I see on my wrist,

00:16:33   or when I look at my wrist, my wrist get to work,

00:16:36   I thought that was hysterical.

00:16:37   - It was, but the problem, you know, like as Jon said,

00:16:39   the problem is like the delivery overall of the whole thing

00:16:43   is usually like too slow, too forced, too awkward,

00:16:46   and you know, and whether that's the side

00:16:47   of just the Apple people or both sides varies on the skit,

00:16:50   but they don't need it because it doesn't,

00:16:52   see, it doesn't seem to me like they're communicating

00:16:55   personality or adding personality.

00:16:56   To me, it seems forced to scripted,

00:17:00   'cause you know, we know these things are very scripted.

00:17:01   We know they've rehearsed, we know that almost every line

00:17:04   is considered and written beforehand.

00:17:06   - Well, that wrist line, I assume, was an ad lib.

00:17:09   - Yeah.

00:17:10   - Because Stephen Colbert, I have to read this,

00:17:11   like they give him a script and he looks at it and goes,

00:17:13   oh, this is crap, and then I'm assuming

00:17:15   he made that line himself at the end.

00:17:17   - Maybe, or maybe they approved it.

00:17:18   Whatever the case is, it's very clear these things are,

00:17:22   at least on the Apple side, extremely scripted

00:17:25   and extremely rehearsed, and they're read

00:17:28   at an extremely slow pace, which is good

00:17:30   when you're presenting details of a product

00:17:32   that the press has to write down.

00:17:33   but when you're doing some kind of entertainment bit,

00:17:37   it just feels really awkward and forced.

00:17:39   And it doesn't feel to me, it doesn't feel genuine.

00:17:43   It feels like we thought this would get you excited

00:17:46   and we're kind of excited to do something with a celebrity,

00:17:49   so we're doing it in this planned, artificial, forced way.

00:17:53   But it just does not feel genuine at all.

00:17:55   - Well, it breaks up the flow of the presentation,

00:17:57   which is the biggest downside for it.

00:17:59   But in the absence of genuine enthusiasm

00:18:03   by the presenter about the tech details

00:18:05   or the product features.

00:18:06   It's like this kind of, it was kind of filling the void.

00:18:10   And I don't think the filler is the problem.

00:18:12   It's the void that's the problem.

00:18:13   Like there was, I said this many times

00:18:15   that whenever Steve Jobs showed something

00:18:17   there was some aspect of it

00:18:19   that he was obviously super excited about.

00:18:21   And sometimes that aspect was stupid

00:18:23   but his excitement was genuine.

00:18:25   And he was, whatever it was, he's excited about a volume

00:18:27   button, he's excited about, you know, the edge of something.

00:18:30   He's excited about a particular software feature.

00:18:32   He was super excited about it.

00:18:34   And his enthusiasm, despite whether you yourself

00:18:37   were excited about it, was infectious.

00:18:39   You need something like that to drive the presentation.

00:18:41   And sometimes I get the idea that like, at this point,

00:18:45   Craig Federighi is no longer particularly excited

00:18:47   about iOS 8 extensions, 'cause he's like,

00:18:50   he's done with them.

00:18:51   Like he was excited about doing them.

00:18:53   He did them.

00:18:53   He's talked about them on stage 10 times.

00:18:55   Now they're gonna ship.

00:18:57   He's probably worried about bugs and iOS 8.1 and iOS 9

00:19:01   whatever he's worried about, he can't muster the enthusiasm

00:19:04   to tell you how excited he is about iOS 8 extensions,

00:19:06   what they mean for the iOS platform and stuff like that.

00:19:09   So to fill in that void of enthusiasm, that's like,

00:19:12   oh, now we'll have a celebrity skit because they are excited

00:19:16   about talking to Stephen Colbert.

00:19:17   And that's, that I think is the worst part of it.

00:19:19   Not the skits in themselves, but just that they seem

00:19:22   to be filling in for something that's missing.

00:19:25   - All right.

00:19:27   - Let's talk about actual products.

00:19:28   How about that?

00:19:29   - We certainly can.

00:19:30   So they retconned my beloved RetinaPad Mini,

00:19:35   and now it's the iPad Mini 2?

00:19:38   - Yeah, congratulations.

00:19:39   - Yeah, so now it will make Steven Hackett even more upset

00:19:43   when I call it the RetinaPad Mini,

00:19:45   which that's kind of enjoyable, I suppose.

00:19:47   But yeah, so it's now the iPad Mini 2.

00:19:50   I got that right, I think.

00:19:52   And what did they, they dropped the price $100?

00:19:54   Is that correct?

00:19:56   - Not even, not even, right?

00:19:57   It's $249, right?

00:19:58   - No, that's the old one, which is still for sale,

00:20:01   which is crazy that they are still for another year,

00:20:05   or at least for now, they are still selling

00:20:08   the A5 based iPad mini one, which is based on the iPad two,

00:20:13   which came out in 2011.

00:20:14   - And the iPod touch is the same as the mini, isn't it?

00:20:18   - Yeah, the A5, right?

00:20:19   It's still A5 based.

00:20:20   - Yeah, so I mean, even though they didn't announce

00:20:22   a new one, they're still selling the old one, I assume.

00:20:24   - Yeah, yeah.

00:20:25   So this, as a developer, that makes me nervous and a little frustrated because, you know,

00:20:31   the A5 was a great chip when it came out in 2011, in early 2011 at that.

00:20:37   But it is now no longer a great chip.

00:20:39   It is, you know, if anybody who tries to run iOS 8 on an original iPad mini, an iPad 3,

00:20:47   which uses the same A5 CPU just with bigger GPU.

00:20:51   So iPad mini, non-retina, iPad 3, any iPod touch, and the iPhone 4S.

00:20:57   Those are all the A5 devices.

00:20:59   If you've tried to run iOS 8 on an A5 device, you know that that's not a great experience.

00:21:05   It works, but it's pretty rough.

00:21:08   And that's, because they're now still selling devices that use that, that means that chances

00:21:16   are, so iOS 8, obviously we're stuck with this for the next year, but what's going to

00:21:20   happen next year when iOS 9 comes out. Is iOS 9 going to still need to support this

00:21:26   because they're still going to be selling it when it they're still gonna be selling

00:21:29   original iPad minis when it comes out? It's constricting everybody. It's especially

00:21:34   bad for game developers or anybody who depends on a lot of GPU power. The funny thing is

00:21:38   like they should they showed in the presentation that that wonderful big hockey stick graph

00:21:43   of the GPU power increase over the iPad's lifetime. And the hilarious thing is that

00:21:49   these models that they're still selling, the second dot on that graph, that's them.

00:21:54   That's the iPad 2.

00:21:56   That like, they're still selling that today.

00:21:59   Is it the case that developers can't do anything with their apps to basically not make it work

00:22:04   on the A5 devices?

00:22:06   That is correct.

00:22:07   Developers cannot exclude A5 devices.

00:22:10   They just, there's no mechanism to it.

00:22:14   Developers used to hack around this by like, they'd figure out like some hardware feature

00:22:17   that was added, like they'll be like,

00:22:18   "Oh, well this requires a gyroscope."

00:22:20   That didn't exist in like the iPhone 3GS.

00:22:22   They would figure out ways like that,

00:22:24   but there are no more of those ways

00:22:25   that would exclude only the A5 devices.

00:22:28   And it's also against the rules to do that anyway.

00:22:30   So if Apple caught you doing that,

00:22:32   like excluding based on a hardware thing

00:22:34   that you didn't really need to be excluding for,

00:22:36   they would ding you for that.

00:22:37   So there's really no way,

00:22:39   and it sucks for game developers who rely on this

00:22:41   because not only do they have to either

00:22:43   still support the A5 devices,

00:22:45   which is a huge burden on any kind of modern graphics

00:22:48   and modern stuff like that.

00:22:50   Or they have to say in their description,

00:22:52   which many of them do,

00:22:52   "Warning, do not buy this if you have devices X, Y, and Z."

00:22:56   - And then deal with all the one-star reviews

00:22:57   and the angry people that you can't respond to

00:22:59   'cause you don't know who they are, yeah.

00:23:01   - Right, 'cause nobody reads the descriptions.

00:23:03   So you get every single person who buy,

00:23:06   and it sucks that if it's paid up front,

00:23:08   then you can't refund it.

00:23:09   It's a bad situation for so many reasons.

00:23:13   This is why I think, we know in the industry

00:23:17   the idea of the strategy tax.

00:23:19   And the strategy tax basically,

00:23:21   some part of a big tech company,

00:23:25   their strategic needs are holding back

00:23:28   some other part of the company's strategic needs.

00:23:30   We knew in Microsoft, this was like Office and Windows

00:23:35   fighting and having to preserve Windows everywhere,

00:23:39   holding back their mobile strategy and stuff like that.

00:23:41   I think with Apple, their profit margins on their hardware

00:23:46   and someone deciding that they need to keep pushing devices

00:23:50   lower and lower and keeping them around longer and longer,

00:23:53   that is the Apple strategy tax that we're seeing,

00:23:55   besides their being massively overcommitted

00:23:58   on software needs.

00:23:59   But besides that--

00:24:00   - It doesn't have to be though,

00:24:02   because I think it's good for them to have a cheap product.

00:24:05   They're a big hang up and it's not like,

00:24:07   it doesn't fall out of their strategy

00:24:09   of we need to be at $249 for our iPads.

00:24:12   The problem is that, with the exception, I guess,

00:24:15   maybe of the iPhone 5C, they just refuse to make

00:24:19   a fresh, low-cost device.

00:24:21   They always just go with last year's,

00:24:23   and it's like, I've talked about this many times

00:24:25   when the 5C was coming out that I thought they should do it,

00:24:27   and they kind of did with the 5C, but not quite.

00:24:29   Like, you can make a better product at that price point

00:24:32   if you use modern technologies.

00:24:34   Like, I know that you already have the factories

00:24:35   up and going, I know you've been making this,

00:24:37   I know there are economies of scale, blah, blah, blah.

00:24:39   But, and I guess maybe there's margins, like you said.

00:24:42   Give up a little bit of margins,

00:24:44   make a new $249 device that, you know,

00:24:48   has an A6 or A7 in it.

00:24:49   Figure out a way to do that.

00:24:51   Like start from scratch

00:24:52   and make a intentionally low cost device.

00:24:55   So save money where you can,

00:24:56   use a crappier camera, so on and so forth.

00:24:58   But don't just say, well, we have this device

00:25:00   and now we can make it for cheaper.

00:25:01   So done and done.

00:25:03   We'll just keep it around.

00:25:04   Because things age out in that old hardware.

00:25:06   and like the old USB 1, USB 2 example from the PC world

00:25:10   from ages ago, eventually it becomes more expensive

00:25:13   to put USB 1 in your PC because USB 2 is everywhere

00:25:16   and you can't even find USB 1 anymore

00:25:18   and there's no real equivalent for that for iOS devices.

00:25:20   But just if you take a clean sheet and say,

00:25:24   with modern technology and modern prices on components,

00:25:27   can I hit that price point,

00:25:28   give up a little bit of margin

00:25:29   and just make a better product, a better product

00:25:31   because it gives a better impression to your customers,

00:25:33   maybe put a little more RAM in it,

00:25:35   A better product because it makes your developers happy.

00:25:36   And it's just this keeping around of the exact old product

00:25:40   for years and years, iPod Touch,

00:25:42   is just not a good look, as they say.

00:25:45   - Right, well, and it isn't just keeping around the old.

00:25:48   It's even the choices you get with the new.

00:25:50   So, for instance, the 1664/128 split.

00:25:54   - Yeah, yeah, we already went through that.

00:25:56   I mean, they did it again, but it's like,

00:25:58   what did we expect them to do?

00:25:59   They're not going to turn,

00:26:00   like that decision was made a year ago.

00:26:02   - Well, and the reason they made that decision

00:26:04   was not so they could make an extra $3 on the 16 gig one

00:26:09   by not putting a 32 gig chip in it.

00:26:10   - And it's trying to push you up to the middle model, right?

00:26:12   - Exactly, see this is, they did some,

00:26:14   they did an amazing trick with the new iPhone pricing.

00:26:17   They have managed to increase their average,

00:26:19   their likely average selling price by like $200 because,

00:26:22   so you figure like so many people

00:26:25   would have been okay with 32.

00:26:27   If 32 was the new baseline,

00:26:29   most people would have bought just the baseline.

00:26:31   That's why.

00:26:32   - I don't know if this plan is gonna work though.

00:26:34   Do you think it's gonna work?

00:26:35   Do you think it's gonna push people up?

00:26:36   I know that seems like it's the aim.

00:26:37   It's a typical anchoring thing where you try

00:26:39   to push people up, but I just wonder if people

00:26:41   are gonna be like, I don't know how flexible people

00:26:44   are to go up to them.

00:26:45   'Cause the people who buy the bottom model,

00:26:47   do they even know, do they know how much storage

00:26:49   they're using?

00:26:49   Do they know 16 of what?

00:26:50   Do they know how many of whatever those 16 things are

00:26:53   that they're currently using?

00:26:54   - I suspect most iPhone owners have run out of space before.

00:26:57   So I think people buying their very first iPhone

00:27:01   might not be fooled, or might be fooled into getting a 16,

00:27:05   but I think people who are buying their second or third

00:27:07   or fourth iPhone are gonna be way more likely to go

00:27:10   for a bigger size than the base model,

00:27:11   because they've probably faced a storage issue before.

00:27:14   - If only upgrading to iOS 8, right?

00:27:16   - Yeah, exactly.

00:27:17   That's yet another big, and so here's the thing,

00:27:19   by continuing to sell these small devices,

00:27:21   oh, and the other half of that is,

00:27:23   so they have this 1664 thing,

00:27:27   so that, again, if 32 was the baseline,

00:27:30   everybody would just buy 32.

00:27:32   They have kind of pushed a lot of people to go upmarket

00:27:35   and to raise their average selling price that way.

00:27:37   Also, keep in mind, the iPhone 6 Plus is $100 more,

00:27:42   and they're selling a lot of those as well.

00:27:44   So the entire pricing of the iPhone line is, I think,

00:27:48   very carefully designed to push

00:27:51   that average selling price upwards.

00:27:53   And if you look at the new iPad lineup,

00:27:56   you can see that when the first Mini came out,

00:28:00   that certainly pushed the average selling price down.

00:28:03   And I don't think it has caught back up

00:28:05   to where it used to be even now.

00:28:06   But if you look at the new lineup,

00:28:08   so you have the old crappy iPad Mini at 250, fine.

00:28:11   Wasn't it, was it 280 before?

00:28:14   Is that roughly the same price?

00:28:16   - 269, I don't remember.

00:28:17   - Something like that.

00:28:19   Retina iPad is now 300 instead of 400.

00:28:23   The iPad Mini 3, which is just the Retina Mini,

00:28:28   but now also available in gold

00:28:29   and with Touch ID, no other changes.

00:28:32   Gold option and Touch ID, $100 more.

00:28:35   And then you have the iPad Air, the old one,

00:28:41   which is still for sale at $400 also,

00:28:43   and then the iPad Air 2,

00:28:45   which is actually a substantial upgrade for $500,

00:28:48   the original price of full-size iPads.

00:28:51   All of this, and of course the same 1664

00:28:54   on most of those models.

00:28:55   So all of this is clearly made to push people up the line.

00:29:00   This is very carefully designed for upselling.

00:29:04   It's very obvious, like Apple's whole product line,

00:29:07   like if you look at their pricing intervals,

00:29:08   they're very, very carefully spaced out

00:29:10   so that there's always something else

00:29:12   that you or a salesperson can talk yourself into

00:29:15   to go like, oh, just a little bit more will get you this,

00:29:17   like until you hit like the absolute most you can spend.

00:29:20   And that is on one side of Apple,

00:29:23   the hardware profit margins side of it,

00:29:26   where they need to maximize that.

00:29:28   Then you look at what it does to developers.

00:29:31   Now, developers, first of all,

00:29:33   have to write to all these old CPUs forever.

00:29:35   Keep in mind, not only is that affecting all of us,

00:29:38   who Apple could kind of not care less about,

00:29:39   like, you know, if life is a little bit harder

00:29:41   for third-party developers in some way like this,

00:29:43   Apple doesn't care that much,

00:29:45   but Apple itself is one of the biggest iOS developers,

00:29:50   if not the biggest iOS developer.

00:29:51   And so Apple has to deal with this too.

00:29:53   When they're making all of their built-in apps,

00:29:56   when they're doing all of their own development,

00:29:58   the development of the OS itself,

00:30:00   what the OS can even do,

00:30:02   Apple is restricted by their own hardware margin needs

00:30:06   on their development side.

00:30:08   And that affects lots of things.

00:30:11   It also affects, you know,

00:30:12   the whole problem with iOS 8 upgrades

00:30:16   and the very likely cause of it being a disk space issue,

00:30:19   that upgrading to iOS 8 requires almost five gigs

00:30:22   of free space and Apple has been selling

00:30:25   eight and 16 gig devices in mass for a long time.

00:30:29   And so it's like the percentage of people

00:30:33   who can't do an over, and yes I know you can plug

00:30:35   into iTunes but no one knows that and no one does that.

00:30:38   The amount of people who have an iOS 7 device

00:30:41   and would upgrade except they don't have five gigs

00:30:44   of free space is substantial.

00:30:46   And so even that, that's the result of previous years,

00:30:50   Apple skimping on memory to boost their margins

00:30:54   and drive people to higher models.

00:30:55   Now that is affecting them this year,

00:30:57   that's affecting their development teams.

00:30:58   And so this is all related, this is why,

00:31:00   it's a clear strategy tax.

00:31:03   Like the hardware margin side of Apple is restricting

00:31:08   and causing problems for the software side of Apple

00:31:11   and the developer side of Apple.

00:31:13   - You know, I think for the most part

00:31:15   I agree with what you said.

00:31:16   One thing I take a little bit of issue with though

00:31:18   is your thought that a lot of regular people

00:31:23   would get not the baseline phone,

00:31:26   not get the 16 gig phone.

00:31:28   And I think in the same way, like you just said,

00:31:30   that not a lot of people realize,

00:31:32   oh, you can plug into iTunes and fix all these problems

00:31:34   to do the iOS 8 upgrade.

00:31:35   I don't think a lot of people really get

00:31:37   into the intricacies of which iPhone to buy.

00:31:41   And I haven't like interrogated my coworkers,

00:31:45   Certainly I've looked around the office over the last year as the 5C became a thing, as

00:31:50   the 5S was a thing, and now as the 6 and 6 Plus are a thing.

00:31:56   I believe one of my coworkers got the exact same phone I did, the 6 with 64 gigs.

00:32:02   Another one just got a 6, and because she is still on a family plan with her family,

00:32:07   apparently her parents just went and picked up a phone for her.

00:32:10   She didn't even know what capacity it was.

00:32:12   Now this is just one example, but it's an indicative example.

00:32:15   Additionally, there have been a handful of people that have shown up with five C's.

00:32:20   Now I can't think of any developers that have, but Manson has one.

00:32:23   Oh yeah, that's true.

00:32:25   I just meant my office, but yeah, but either way, um, these are typically like project

00:32:29   managers or HR people and a lot of them have ended up with five C's and these are people

00:32:34   who work in, in an environment, in a developing company and we, we do software

00:32:38   consulting and yeah.

00:32:39   And so if there was a quote-unquote regular person that would understand why you would want a bigger phone

00:32:45   These are the people that that would do that, but they don't get them and I wonder I haven't again

00:32:50   I haven't asked but I wonder if maybe it's because you know

00:32:53   It's hard to justify getting a hundred or two hundred or three hundred or shoot seven hundred dollar iPhone

00:32:59   over this equally pretty looking

00:33:02   Android phone that's like either free or a hundred bucks or whatever the case may be and heck now that I'm thinking of it

00:33:09   But pretty much Aaron's entire family is all on Android, generally speaking, not exclusively,

00:33:16   but generally speaking, because those phones were considerably cheaper than iPhones.

00:33:20   And I think that plays a much bigger role for your average consumer.

00:33:25   That being said, I agree with you that if somebody wanted to upgrade at all, or was

00:33:31   at all privy to the fact that 16 gigs is not a lot, they are absolutely, without a shadow

00:33:36   of a doubt, going to get a 64 gig phone.

00:33:39   The 5C is pretty awesome though, like in terms, like not in terms, we know what's wrong with

00:33:42   it, right?

00:33:43   But it comes in colors, which is just huge.

00:33:46   And it's really comfortable because the reason Manton got one, I assume is because it's just,

00:33:49   it's nicer to hold.

00:33:50   Like it's, if they had made, for example, a new low end, uh, iPad mini plastic color

00:33:57   back a six or a seven instead of an a five, same price point, that would just be a better

00:34:04   product all around.

00:34:05   Right.

00:34:06   you can't underestimate the attractiveness.

00:34:09   If you don't make it incredibly crippled,

00:34:11   like give it eight gigabytes or something, 5C,

00:34:13   that plastic is durable, it's attractive,

00:34:17   it's comfortable, it's cheap.

00:34:19   If you're gonna give a little iPad to a kid,

00:34:21   it comes in colors.

00:34:22   These are all big selling points that are easy.

00:34:24   It's like right, they're right in front of Apple

00:34:26   for it to grab.

00:34:27   And because the 5C didn't do as well as they hoped,

00:34:30   as far as we can tell, like it was hobbled by other reasons,

00:34:33   by the fact that it was alongside the much more desirable,

00:34:35   what was it, the 5S that it came with?

00:34:38   And so it was always the big end,

00:34:40   the high end model was gonna be,

00:34:41   and they kind of crippled it by, you know,

00:34:42   giving it not so great specs and not really improving it.

00:34:45   It was just like the 5 in a different case,

00:34:47   maybe with a slightly bigger battery.

00:34:49   I just wish they would make dedicated products

00:34:54   for lower price points instead of just having this cascade.

00:34:56   And the other thing with the storage, the RAM,

00:35:00   like pick any spec you want

00:35:01   that we complain about all the time.

00:35:03   This has been true of Apple for so long,

00:35:05   for like, you know, since the 90s,

00:35:07   since even before Steve Jobs came back,

00:35:10   Apple as a company will get it into its head

00:35:12   that like some number is the correct number for some spec.

00:35:17   Whether it's gonna be like every machine

00:35:18   has four megabytes of RAM, like I'm going way back here,

00:35:21   and it'll have four megabytes of RAM and it will be fine.

00:35:24   And then the next year, the bottom line,

00:35:26   we'll have four megabytes of RAM

00:35:27   and you'll be looking around and go,

00:35:28   well, everyone else doesn't have four megabytes

00:35:29   at the bottom.

00:35:30   And the next year will come and the bottom line

00:35:31   will have four megabytes of RAM.

00:35:32   You're like, okay, is Apple not looking

00:35:34   at the rest of the world?

00:35:35   nobody ships four megabytes of RAM anymore.

00:35:36   I'm like, it goes through this.

00:35:38   And until it just seems insane,

00:35:40   you're like surely this year they'll bump it.

00:35:41   And then finally they bump it.

00:35:43   It's been that way, you know,

00:35:44   Apple is actually in a good cycle with the RAM now.

00:35:46   They're not really skimping.

00:35:47   They finally bumped everyone up to 16,

00:35:49   but now it's a flash storage.

00:35:51   Someone got it into their head that, you know,

00:35:53   16 gigs is perfectly good for the low end model,

00:35:56   but just keep doing that year after year after year,

00:35:58   16, 16, 16, the rest of the world is like,

00:36:00   are you kidding?

00:36:01   Now, first of all, they all have SIM slots and everything,

00:36:03   or not sim slots, SD card slots,

00:36:05   and stuff on the other side of the fence.

00:36:06   So at the very least, those people buy something,

00:36:08   you just buy some cheap and probably slow

00:36:10   and probably crappy and whatever,

00:36:11   complain about your SD cards.

00:36:13   At least they have, you know,

00:36:14   buy a faster SD card if they wanna spend the money.

00:36:16   They have the option to at least upgrade it.

00:36:18   Apple's things are completely sealed up

00:36:19   and they just keep going with 16.

00:36:21   And so now we're at like the tail end of the 16th cycle

00:36:23   where it's just crazy that they're doing this.

00:36:25   It's just, it's hurting everybody.

00:36:27   And if you want to pick out something to blame

00:36:30   on the stereotypical Tim Cook, you know, character attributes,

00:36:34   the fact that he's an operations guy and wants to like, you know,

00:36:37   make all the numbers add up in the columns and, you know,

00:36:41   make sure that he's getting the best price for the best parts

00:36:44   and the most efficiencies and everything.

00:36:46   This would be something you could blame on on that instinct,

00:36:50   whether it's him or not, whether it's other people.

00:36:52   It's just like because, again, this type of thing has been going on Apple

00:36:55   for a really long time.

00:36:56   It happened under Steve Jobs. It happened before Steve Jobs came back.

00:36:59   but it is exactly in line with his expertise

00:37:04   at keeping costs down and profit margins high.

00:37:09   But I think it's over the line,

00:37:11   and it's really, like Marco said, it's hurting Apple,

00:37:14   it's hurting customers, it's not a good call.

00:37:17   - Yeah, and it isn't, again, 16 is not the minimum.

00:37:20   16 is the lowest that they do on new devices.

00:37:23   They will sell old devices with eight still.

00:37:26   - Yeah, I know, but I'm talking about

00:37:27   the flagship product, the fact that you can get

00:37:29   their flagship product with 16,

00:37:30   and you could get their flagship product with 16 last year,

00:37:32   and you could get their flagship.

00:37:34   Like, you know, the world moves on.

00:37:36   Prices go down, like, you're just hurting yourself.

00:37:39   - Yeah, and it has to impact Tim's customer sat.

00:37:43   You have to imagine that, you know,

00:37:46   the experience of using a memory constrained Mac

00:37:49   or a space constrained iOS device,

00:37:53   it is a worse experience.

00:37:54   It has to be causing increased load at the Genius Bar.

00:37:57   It is definitely causing worse experiences

00:37:59   and people to have worse opinions of their Apple products

00:38:02   when they run into constant disk space issues

00:38:04   and stuff like that.

00:38:05   It is affecting them in other ways.

00:38:07   That's why I think this is long term.

00:38:09   I think it's a bad move.

00:38:10   - I think they'll learn from this.

00:38:11   This was in the notes for a couple weeks now,

00:38:13   but we didn't talk about the iOS 8 adoption.

00:38:15   And so they had to have, speaking of this presentation

00:38:17   that we've kind of wandered off from here,

00:38:19   they have the slide up, they had to,

00:38:20   oh, look at iOS 8 adoption.

00:38:22   And to make the typical super impressive slide,

00:38:24   they had to combine iOS 8 and iOS 7.

00:38:27   You know what I mean?

00:38:29   Like so they could show a big number,

00:38:31   because iOS 8 adoption is slower.

00:38:33   And now granted, the decision to go with the 16s

00:38:35   was probably made a year or two ago.

00:38:37   Like it's ancient history now.

00:38:38   But the one ramification that I think Apple can clearly see

00:38:42   is iOS 8 adoption is slower.

00:38:44   Is it because of the bugs?

00:38:46   Yeah, part of it's because of the bugs.

00:38:47   Is storage part of it?

00:38:48   Like in their big meeting where they talk about

00:38:50   why is iOS 8 adoption slow?

00:38:51   One of the points that has to come up is the storage thing.

00:38:54   And one solution is that, oh, we need a smarter installer.

00:38:56   It takes a less room.

00:38:56   But the other solution is stop shipping 16 gigs

00:38:59   as the low end storage size for years and years.

00:39:02   So hopefully Apple being the learning machine

00:39:06   that we think it is will come out of this and say,

00:39:08   we have made a misjudgment when we're planning

00:39:10   for the iPhone 8.

00:39:12   We need to not be ridiculous with the flash sizes.

00:39:17   - All right, so we wandered off a bit,

00:39:19   but let's get a summary of the iPad minis

00:39:23   and iPads Mini, whatever, and then let's talk iPad Airs.

00:39:28   So it seems clear to me that unless you are in dire need

00:39:32   of Touch ID on all your devices, I see no point

00:39:36   in spending an extra $100 in getting an iPad Mini 3.

00:39:41   - Yeah, I just agree with that.

00:39:43   I know the pricing is ridiculous.

00:39:44   I know that it is a ridiculous premium

00:39:46   for like if you wanna look like how much does it cost

00:39:50   to put Touch ID sensor or whatever,

00:39:51   but it's no more ridiculous than paying an extra $100

00:39:54   for an extra 16 gigs of flash,

00:39:55   in terms of like the physics

00:39:57   and the cost of materials type thing.

00:39:59   It's exactly as ridiculous, right?

00:40:01   But Touch ID is a tangible benefit.

00:40:04   Once you have a device with Touch ID,

00:40:06   you don't want one without it.

00:40:07   And having a mixed household with some Touch,

00:40:09   or a mixed personal repertoire of devices

00:40:12   that mostly have Touch ID, but then the iPad doesn't,

00:40:15   this is a case where I think much more so than the storage.

00:40:19   they are charging $100 for a benefit

00:40:21   that they think is worth $100 to some people.

00:40:24   And I think they're closer to being right

00:40:25   that this benefit is worth $100

00:40:27   than an extra 16 gigs of flash or something.

00:40:29   - Well, and they also had to overcome the problem

00:40:31   they introduced last year when the iPad Air

00:40:34   and Retina Mini came out,

00:40:36   which was that the Retina Air and the Mini,

00:40:39   the Air is supposed to be the higher end device,

00:40:41   but they were very, very similar

00:40:43   because they both had the A7.

00:40:45   They both had the same system on a chip.

00:40:48   the Air was something like 5% faster,

00:40:50   but otherwise, you know, it was minimal.

00:40:52   And so the Mini became just as high-end of a device

00:40:56   as the Air did.

00:40:57   That was the fluke last year,

00:40:59   where suddenly the Mini became high-end.

00:41:02   - That last year's Mini was a good deal,

00:41:04   relatively speaking.

00:41:05   - Exactly, and so this year,

00:41:07   they basically upgraded the Air and not the Mini

00:41:09   to create that gap again.

00:41:11   Again, it's all about ASP,

00:41:12   it's all about the average selling price.

00:41:13   Like, they wanna push people who want the best

00:41:17   to not say, well, the iPad mini is just as good

00:41:20   and it's smaller, so I want that and it's cheaper.

00:41:22   No, if you want the best, Apple wants you to go

00:41:25   all the way to the top of the line

00:41:26   and spend that money with that profit margin.

00:41:29   I can't blame them, I mean, that's business.

00:41:31   I'm not saying they're evil for doing this.

00:41:33   - Yeah, I mean, but what I'm saying,

00:41:34   I think of the mini with Touch ID,

00:41:36   whatever the hell number that is, three,

00:41:38   it's not a bad product.

00:41:40   Relatively speaking, we're like,

00:41:41   oh, they just added this tiny thing

00:41:43   and they added the price.

00:41:44   That's true, but at least this one gives you

00:41:46   like a real tangible benefit.

00:41:49   Like that's what they charge money for essentially.

00:41:52   It's something you can,

00:41:54   I think it's something that people appreciate more.

00:41:57   It's not worth $100 obviously.

00:41:59   Here's the deal, if you were talking to somebody

00:42:01   and they're trying to decide which iPad mini they should get,

00:42:03   you basically just go right for their budget.

00:42:05   Say, can you afford an extra 100 bucks

00:42:07   to have this touch thing?

00:42:08   And if you're like, well, it looks neat, but I don't know.

00:42:10   Then obviously you go for the cheaper model.

00:42:12   But if you happen, if $100 here or there

00:42:14   is not gonna break the bank,

00:42:16   and they're willing to spend that amount of money,

00:42:17   I'm not gonna say, even though you can afford it,

00:42:20   even though you've got the money in your pocket right now

00:42:22   and could buy that one, you shouldn't,

00:42:23   because it's not worth it,

00:42:24   because a Touch ID sensor is not worth $100.

00:42:26   Well, neither is 16 gigs of RAM, or flash,

00:42:28   but you tell people to do it anyways,

00:42:30   like, it will just make your life easier,

00:42:32   and if you can afford it, then go for it.

00:42:35   - Okay, so I can get behind that assessment.

00:42:37   The reason, though, that I'm hemming and hawing about,

00:42:39   or I guess even saying no, is for me,

00:42:42   And I love my iPad Mini 2.

00:42:45   I had to think about that really hard.

00:42:47   I love my iPad Mini 2, and it does not have Touch ID.

00:42:50   And honestly, the only time I really miss Touch ID

00:42:53   isn't when I'm unlocking the device,

00:42:55   but is instead when I'm using one password.

00:42:57   Because I have a reasonably long password,

00:43:00   and typing that constantly is a real pain in the butt.

00:43:03   And so I agree with what you said,

00:43:05   that hey, if you can afford that $100,

00:43:07   heck yes, absolutely go ahead and spend it.

00:43:10   But to me, I don't view it as a do or die feature

00:43:14   like say a retina screen was.

00:43:17   - Well, it depends on how you use your mini.

00:43:18   If you're using it kind of like a phablet

00:43:20   where you're carrying it around with you,

00:43:21   then like, because you know, for the unlocking and unlocking

00:43:24   obviously with a phone you do it all the time,

00:43:25   you wanna have the passcode, you wanna have the security.

00:43:28   But if your iPad never leaves your house,

00:43:30   maybe you don't even need it locked

00:43:32   and then it comes down to like touch ID,

00:43:33   which I was gonna bring it before,

00:43:34   like yeah, iOS 8 suddenly makes touch ID

00:43:36   a much more useful thing than it was with iOS 7

00:43:38   because now, you know, one password and type,

00:43:41   even if you never leave your house with it,

00:43:42   that can be useful.

00:43:43   Someone on Twitter has just mentioned that,

00:43:46   and a lot of people have brought this up,

00:43:47   I think I saw it on during Fireball as well, like,

00:43:50   well, Apple is using such a huge portion of the world's,

00:43:54   whatever it is, whether it's the flash memory

00:43:57   or RAM or whatever, and that's why, you know,

00:43:59   the iPhone 6 only has one gig of RAM,

00:44:00   or that's why they only put 16 gigs of flash or whatever.

00:44:04   And I think that's mostly BS,

00:44:06   because supply and demand are in a relationship

00:44:08   with each other, Apple plans years and years ahead.

00:44:11   They pay for the capacity they need.

00:44:13   They pay for people to build factories, to add tooling.

00:44:18   Like if someone is there to buy it, it will work it out.

00:44:24   It's economic.

00:44:25   It's not like, well, it's not like someone's

00:44:27   picking coconuts.

00:44:28   Like, well, we're all out of coconuts

00:44:29   and we can't plant anymore.

00:44:30   Like if there's a demand, someone

00:44:36   provide the supply and Apple in this case and in all cases is so willing to

00:44:41   sink huge amounts of capital upfront to get the capacity to manufacture whatever

00:44:45   it is they need at the volumes they need so I don't believe that supply is the

00:44:49   problem because as far as I know there is no like natural resource or climate

00:44:53   related issue or whatever that is like capping the amount of available you know

00:44:58   NAND capacity in the world other than the thing that's capping it is how what

00:45:03   the orders were put in two, three, or four years ago whenever the current could be, you

00:45:07   know what I mean?

00:45:08   There's a lead time and everything, but there are inputs into the system, and Apple's such

00:45:11   a huge input that if it wanted to plan for, say, three years from now, all of our devices

00:45:17   are going to have double the flash RAM.

00:45:20   They would start spending the money now, it would show up on their balance sheet, and

00:45:23   eventually the supply would be there for them.

00:45:24   So I still feel like this is a decision Apple makes about what they want.

00:45:28   It's not like, "Well, we'd love to put more flash in there, but it's just not available

00:45:32   for us."

00:45:33   - Yeah, all right, Mark, why don't you tell us

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00:48:18   - All right, so we should probably talk

00:48:19   about the iPad Air 2.

00:48:21   And as someone who converted from a large iPad

00:48:25   to a mini iPad.

00:48:28   To be honest, I didn't find this that terribly exciting.

00:48:32   However, the thing I thought most interesting,

00:48:35   or the two things I thought most interesting,

00:48:37   were the loss of the rotation lock,

00:48:41   or I guess it could also be a mute switch,

00:48:43   and the Apple SIM,

00:48:45   which wasn't even brought up during the keynote.

00:48:47   And I actually think that's the most intriguing to me.

00:48:50   As it turns out, and I've talked about it a lot in the past,

00:48:53   I have a T-Mobile SIM for my iPad Mini 2.

00:48:57   And it's actually-- it came with a Verizon SIM.

00:49:00   And I flip SIMs back and forth on a surprising regular basis

00:49:04   for a device that I very rarely pay for cellular data on.

00:49:08   And I really like being able to do that.

00:49:12   Now unfortunately, in this case, Verizon

00:49:13   isn't part of this Apple SIM agreement.

00:49:16   And it is fairly US-centric.

00:49:17   I think, what is it, EE?

00:49:19   That has it in the UK, I believe?

00:49:20   - It's pronounced E.

00:49:22   (laughing)

00:49:23   - So yeah, so E has it in e.co.uk.

00:49:27   But anyway, so--

00:49:28   - Hava.

00:49:29   - I think it's a clever, clever, clever idea

00:49:31   and I really like the idea of it

00:49:34   just as much as I dislike the idea

00:49:36   of losing the rotation lock

00:49:38   because I use that constantly on my iPad.

00:49:41   (crickets chirping)

00:49:44   All right, good talk.

00:49:45   Glad everyone agrees.

00:49:46   - Honestly, I hardly ever use my iPad anymore

00:49:48   so I have no opinion of this at all.

00:49:50   Like I'm not gonna get any of these and yeah.

00:49:53   I see why people like the iPad, but I don't.

00:49:56   So there you go.

00:49:57   - John.

00:49:59   - I like the big one.

00:50:00   I'm due to replace my iPad 3 eventually.

00:50:03   It's not really, I have so many other issues,

00:50:06   the hardware issues that I'm not like dying to get one,

00:50:08   but yeah, like it looks good.

00:50:11   And, you know, we talked in past shows

00:50:13   that like about Apple being,

00:50:15   I'm more convinced than ever that Apple

00:50:18   is tied to numbers for things like battery life.

00:50:21   Like why did they make it a millimeter thinner

00:50:23   and give me more battery life?

00:50:24   That it's like they have a target battery life

00:50:27   and they want it to be thinner.

00:50:28   And if they could reach the target battery life

00:50:30   while also making it thinner, then that's what they do.

00:50:32   And that's, that is basically their very simple rule set.

00:50:34   So what's the target battery life for an iPad?

00:50:36   10 hours.

00:50:37   Can you hit 10 hours and make it thinner?

00:50:39   Yes, we can.

00:50:40   Done.

00:50:40   Like, I don't think there's a lot of hemming and hawing.

00:50:42   Well, we can get 12 hours if we make it,

00:50:44   if we keep it the same thickness.

00:50:45   No, the rule is hit the target,

00:50:48   Make it thinner. Can you do both?

00:50:49   You can, good job, bonuses all around.

00:50:52   So 10 hours.

00:50:53   I guess it's fine.

00:50:55   I can't even imagine how thin that thing is

00:50:56   compared to my iPad 3.

00:50:58   So I have to go to the store and try not to touch them.

00:51:02   I'm still kind of annoyed by the iPad Air's border

00:51:05   being thinner because I always feel,

00:51:08   that's one of the reasons I hate the mini.

00:51:09   I hate the thumb rejection crap.

00:51:12   And I always feel like my finger,

00:51:14   I always feel like I can't get a secure grip on it

00:51:16   without accidentally touching the screen.

00:51:17   and they made the borders thinner with the Air

00:51:19   and they're still thinner and I just,

00:51:21   I think it will make the device

00:51:22   a little bit less comfortable for me.

00:51:23   But anyway, eventually I'll get one.

00:51:24   It's gonna be awesomely faster than my iPad 3.

00:51:28   Screen's better, lower glare, thumbs up,

00:51:29   I'm totally gonna get one.

00:51:30   Unless by the time I buy one,

00:51:32   they introduce an iPad Pro or something.

00:51:35   - All right, so quick follow on question to that.

00:51:38   Rick, do you know if you will get another LTE iPad

00:51:42   and does that relate to whether or not

00:51:44   you're going to be getting an iPhone?

00:51:46   I will get another LTE one.

00:51:47   All my iPads have been cellular,

00:51:49   and I use that capacity, and I like it.

00:51:51   So yes, I will pay whatever the insane, ridiculous prices

00:51:54   that they charge for the super duper, top of the line LTE.

00:51:58   Like that's the reason, you know, keep this iPad 3.

00:51:59   I paid, I can't even remember how much I paid for it,

00:52:01   but it was a lot.

00:52:02   - $900.

00:52:03   - Whatever it was, it was like a computer's worth.

00:52:05   And so I'll get my money's worth out of it.

00:52:06   But yeah, I always buy it with cellular,

00:52:07   'cause I use it when I'm on vacation.

00:52:09   Like I basically, I don't bring computers on vacation.

00:52:11   I bring a, you know, cellular iPad.

00:52:14   - Yeah, this is my first cellular iPad.

00:52:15   my third iPad, but my first cellular one.

00:52:18   And I always thought people were crazy

00:52:20   when they said, "Oh, get the cellular one."

00:52:22   But oh my goodness, I'm so glad I did.

00:52:24   Now part of that probably relates to

00:52:26   me not being able to tether to my phone

00:52:28   because I'm still grandfathered on the AT&T Unlimited plan.

00:52:31   But I still love having an LTE iPad.

00:52:35   And I suspect even if I could tether,

00:52:36   I would still get one.

00:52:38   All right, anything else on the iPad hardware?

00:52:41   - I don't think so.

00:52:43   I mean, they did spend a lot of time in the presentation

00:52:45   kind of overdoing the thinness thing.

00:52:47   - Yeah.

00:52:48   - But again, I think that is kind of their big

00:52:51   marketing point for the iPad Air too,

00:52:53   because there aren't that many more changes

00:52:56   that would be very marketable to a mass audience.

00:52:58   - Yeah, and I don't oppose that strategy.

00:52:59   Like I did that post on Hypercritical a while back

00:53:02   about the thinness thing.

00:53:02   Like, it's a reasonable strategy,

00:53:05   but it's just, it's so clear now that like, I mean,

00:53:07   and I think it's so much more reasonable with the iPad

00:53:08   than the phone even, because like the iPad battery,

00:53:11   like no one is like, oh, my iPad,

00:53:13   My full-size iPad is constantly running out of battery.

00:53:15   Like 10 hours is a reasonable target to hit

00:53:18   and it's an honest 10 hours and it's fine.

00:53:20   Whereas the iPhone, you're like,

00:53:22   well, the iPhone battery life is so incredibly variable.

00:53:26   If you're in an area with low signal

00:53:27   and the thing is constantly searching and everything,

00:53:28   it just kills your battery life

00:53:30   and then you do not wanna be stranded without a phone.

00:53:32   Whereas the iPad, 10 hours, real solid 10 hours,

00:53:37   you're not using it as your lifeline

00:53:38   to communicate with people and it's probably fine.

00:53:41   So I actually, I approve of the strategy.

00:53:43   It's just that like every time they bring up that 10 hour

00:53:45   thing, keep reemphasizing it.

00:53:46   It's so clear that that's what their requirements are.

00:53:49   - Yeah, the other thing I wanted to briefly mention

00:53:52   before we give Marco his two hours in the sun

00:53:55   to talk about his stupid new computer.

00:53:57   Did you guys feel like Schiller was phoning it in

00:54:01   or was it just me?

00:54:02   - You know, other people said that.

00:54:03   I re-watched it.

00:54:04   I didn't think it was anything wrong.

00:54:05   I mean, Schiller's always a little bit low key.

00:54:06   Like-- - That's what he's like.

00:54:08   That's Schiller.

00:54:09   I think that I think he was he was the way he always is. All right. I mean, I felt like he was

00:54:14   He's always reserved. You're absolutely right about that. But I felt like he was a little kind of going through the motions

00:54:20   Sometimes he seems distracted because but it's like I don't know what he's distracted by

00:54:24   You used to think he'd be distracted by the fear of steve job's laser eyes off stage staring at the back of his head

00:54:29   If he's doing something wrong, but his days tim is all having a cup of coffee probably so

00:54:33   Fair enough. All right, let's uh, knock out one more

00:54:38   a sponsor and then let's have Marco go on for two hours.

00:54:42   - That sounds great.

00:54:43   - I'm not sure it sounds great.

00:54:45   - Honestly, I'm probably not gonna go,

00:54:46   I'm not gonna talk that much about it anyway.

00:54:47   - I got my review to get to.

00:54:48   - Exactly.

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00:57:58   So thanks a lot to Igloo for sponsoring our show.

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00:58:02   and support of our show.

00:58:04   - So I completely forgot.

00:58:05   I asked you, Jon, and then you effectively dodged.

00:58:08   There was no iPod Touch at this event.

00:58:11   We have no indication that an iPod Touch is coming.

00:58:14   - Oh yeah, the iPod exists.

00:58:15   - So yeah, the iPod's still a thing.

00:58:17   So what is your plan with regard to smaller

00:58:20   than iPad mobile devices from here on out?

00:58:24   - Yeah, probably gonna get an iPhone.

00:58:26   I've had a loner iPhone for a little while.

00:58:29   Apple sent one because they took a lot of the functionality,

00:58:31   like the phone integration with Yosemite,

00:58:34   they took that out of the iOS 8 builds that were out there.

00:58:37   So if you wanted to test it with,

00:58:39   if you had iOS 8 GM and you couldn't use a lot

00:58:43   of these features, you needed 8.1.

00:58:44   So they sent me an iPhone 6 with 8.1 and I was using that.

00:58:49   And as soon as I got it,

00:58:52   I've been using it as my main actual phone.

00:58:54   So it's giving me a feel for what it's gonna be like.

00:58:57   You know, like I said, I'll probably eventually get one.

00:58:59   There's no iPad, what choice do I have?

00:59:00   There's nothing, there's no other choice for me to get.

00:59:03   Then I can, I'm not, I can't use that iPod touch anymore.

00:59:05   And I know you guys went through all this stuff

00:59:06   with your iPhone six a while ago.

00:59:08   There's just one thing that I would add

00:59:09   into the mix of all the things you talked about

00:59:11   about the screen size and all that stuff

00:59:13   is that the thing that surprised me most

00:59:14   even after hearing all your issues with the iPhone six

00:59:18   was how much heavier it feels than my iPod touch.

00:59:21   I know it is heavier.

00:59:22   I don't know how much heavier it is.

00:59:24   Can't be that much heavier.

00:59:25   I mean, they're both really light devices, but

00:59:26   and I think my RSI is a factor here as well.

00:59:28   So I'm super sensitive to changes in effort required from like, you know fingers and tendons and stuff like that

00:59:33   But boy, it just feels like a brick. No case. I've been using it with no case since I've had it

00:59:37   It just feels so damn heavy

00:59:40   But yeah, that's not gonna have to get one. I wonder if maybe honestly maybe you should get a 5s. I

00:59:47   hate that thing

00:59:50   Wow

00:59:53   What do you feel like the iPhone has?

00:59:57   monsterably changed the way you go about your day, and I'm not patronizing you

01:00:02   I'm honestly asking because when I got my 3GS which admittedly was a kind of different time it

01:00:06   dramatically changed everything because if I didn't know where

01:00:09   Something was I could look at a map on my phone if I didn't know something's phone number

01:00:13   I could look it up like what did you keep calling it in the keynote lines your information phone or whatever it is?

01:00:18   Yeah, and so having an information phone just completely changed my world

01:00:23   Do you find that that's the case or do you find like it's whatever?

01:00:27   Yeah, well, you know, so I've had a surrogate information phone like

01:00:30   My wife I have her look things up on her information phone

01:00:34   We use her phone for navigation in the car

01:00:36   If we're you know

01:00:37   Like so I've had that for a while and if we're if we're somewhere and we're just waiting around and we're bored

01:00:42   She'll let me use her phone to read Twitter like her her Twitter and her thing assigned it to my account because she doesn't have

01:00:46   A Twitter account. She just reads my Twitter. So I read my Twitter on her phone. And so having this

01:00:51   I don't know how long have I had this like a week or I don't know that long enough

01:00:55   I think it's only been maybe three times when I've used it in that capacity once was when I was dropping my kids off

01:01:00   One of their activities on the day the Yosemite review was published and I wanted to catch up

01:01:04   I wanted to not fall farther behind on my Twitter

01:01:07   So while I was like in the waiting area dropping them off and picking them up and stuff

01:01:11   And then this place doesn't have Wi-Fi

01:01:14   I mean some of their activities have Wi-Fi in fact a lot of their activities do have Wi-Fi so I would use my iPod touch

01:01:18   But here I'm like, oh I can since I have my phone with me

01:01:22   Because I used it in the car ride over to listen to podcast I can use it to read Twitter while I wait and wait

01:01:27   For the kids to come right and once it at dinner with some friends

01:01:30   I looked up something on it, but if I hadn't I couldn't my wife was there too

01:01:33   I could have had her look something up on it as well. That's about it

01:01:36   I mean like it's all stuff

01:01:37   I've done before it's not it's not as mind-blowing as your experience because you were like I was never able to do this before and now

01:01:42   I'm able to write whereas now. It's like it's slightly more convenient

01:01:44   I'm mostly the most of the experience to me is getting coming to grips with this just gigantic

01:01:50   I know it's not even that big, but this big, heavy device and the weirdness of how it feels

01:01:56   and the caselessness is a thing too, because like I said, I've always had cases on my small

01:02:00   iOS devices. I will have a case on one, but I'm using this one without a case just because

01:02:04   what I'm going to do, buy a case for a loaner? That would be silly. But I really love Touch

01:02:07   ID. I'm such a total convert on Touch ID.

01:02:09   Oh, it's the best.

01:02:10   I've been using it on my wife's phone. Obviously, all my fingers are on her phone anyway. But

01:02:15   having it on your own device, I never had a lock on my iPod Touch. I put a lock on this

01:02:19   as soon as I got it, and I just use touch ID,

01:02:21   and it's just, it's amazing.

01:02:23   So yeah, I'll probably get an iPhone 6.

01:02:25   - Why don't you buy a case now,

01:02:28   you can return it within 14 days

01:02:30   if you've decided after that point

01:02:31   that you will not own an iPhone 6?

01:02:33   - No, I mean, I'm probably gonna get one.

01:02:34   It's just a matter of like,

01:02:35   just getting everything out of the way

01:02:37   and going through, you know, going through the whole thing

01:02:39   and getting my number ported over from my old crappy phone,

01:02:42   that's gonna be a hassle because, you know, whatever.

01:02:44   I don't need to get it.

01:02:46   Like, I wanna see what the cases are like,

01:02:48   I don't even know which one I want yet,

01:02:49   So I'll get it sorted out.

01:02:51   - You want the Apple leather one?

01:02:52   - Yep.

01:02:53   - Have you used your information pod at all

01:02:56   since you've had the review information phone?

01:02:58   - Oh, no, I've been intentionally avoiding it

01:03:00   'cause I don't wanna switch back and forth.

01:03:02   I just wanna say, nope,

01:03:03   this is it, you gotta use the big one.

01:03:04   There's only like, I think one or two times

01:03:07   that at once I needed to use the Google Authenticator app,

01:03:10   which can only be on like one of your iOS devices

01:03:12   or some crazy rule or whatever.

01:03:13   'Cause I didn't--

01:03:14   - Well, slow down, you're not using Authy?

01:03:16   - No, I use the Google one, should I be using Authy?

01:03:18   You should be using Authy, but anyway, carry on.

01:03:19   - What's better about it?

01:03:21   - You can have it on more than one device.

01:03:23   I think that it may optionally push some of the stuff

01:03:27   server side, which you may take issue with,

01:03:29   but I really like it, and it's much prettier

01:03:32   than the Google One was as of a year ago.

01:03:34   I haven't looked back since then.

01:03:35   - So I had to use it once for that,

01:03:37   and then I had to pick it up once

01:03:38   for something else related to, oh, ebook testing,

01:03:41   because when you load up iBooks on the iPhone 6,

01:03:45   I have my media queries treated differently for sizing,

01:03:49   so I needed an actual five portrait style thing,

01:03:53   so I needed to test that briefly.

01:03:54   But for the most part, I've been trying not to touch it,

01:03:56   'cause I wanna be like, immerse myself in the sticks

01:03:58   and then go back to my little thing and see how it feels.

01:04:01   - Fair enough.

01:04:02   All right, so sorry for that quick aside.

01:04:04   I just wanted to find out, so.

01:04:06   - It's gonna be a short show.

01:04:07   - Yeah, it's gonna be a super short show.

01:04:09   So before we get to the review,

01:04:10   which is what everyone's actually waiting for,

01:04:13   Marco, why don't you tell me about your computer that you're going to get that I'm so enthusiastic about?

01:04:18   Yeah, desktop retina happened, and I'm getting it.

01:04:21   Well, actually that was pretty quick. That makes me more enthusiastic.

01:04:24   Is there any, all kidding aside, is there anything you have to add because you have been, and I've seen you, I've seen

01:04:31   Sean Blanc, I've seen

01:04:33   Jason Snell, all hemming and hawing about, "Oh, should I get the upgrade for this? Should I not get the upgrade for that?"

01:04:39   Is there anything you'd like to add about your strategy?

01:04:41   Like what did you, did you order yet?

01:04:43   And if so, what did you end up ordering?

01:04:45   - I have, I've mostly ordered through,

01:04:47   I'm ordering through the business rep

01:04:49   for the local Apple store,

01:04:51   because you end up getting a couple hundred bucks off.

01:04:54   The big reason is that because it's being used

01:04:56   for primarily software development

01:04:58   in the state of New York, it is tax free.

01:05:01   So that saves a few hundred more dollars.

01:05:02   So the total savings is something like 500 bucks

01:05:04   doing it this way, or even more actually.

01:05:07   So anyway, yeah, I got it decked out, top of the line,

01:05:10   everything, because it basically is as good as the Mac Pro

01:05:15   or better for almost everything I do.

01:05:17   With the one exception of handbrake video encodes,

01:05:20   it is 15% slower.

01:05:22   However, for everything else, it's 25% faster.

01:05:25   So it's like anything single threaded,

01:05:28   it's actually substantially faster.

01:05:31   You know, this is definitely wasteful.

01:05:33   I'm going to lose probably as much as I'm saving

01:05:37   on the sales tax on the new one if I'm gonna lose that

01:05:39   in value when I resell my current Mac Pro.

01:05:41   But I said when I was buying this Mac Pro almost a year ago,

01:05:46   I said, when desktop retina is possible,

01:05:50   I will do whatever it takes to get it.

01:05:52   And that's how important it is to me.

01:05:53   A lot of people, it isn't that important to them,

01:05:55   and that's fine.

01:05:56   Or a lot of people, they'll like it,

01:05:58   but they're willing to wait until they buy

01:06:01   their next computer two or three years from now,

01:06:02   and that's fine.

01:06:04   A lot of people are like Syracuse,

01:06:05   and won't buy a generation one Apple product,

01:06:07   and there are some benefits to that.

01:06:09   - What are you talking about?

01:06:10   I bought the very first Power Mac G5,

01:06:13   the highest end model.

01:06:15   - Recently. (laughs)

01:06:17   - Well, this Mac Pro was,

01:06:19   I guess it's not the first generation,

01:06:20   but it's the first generation

01:06:22   to have this specific CPU in it.

01:06:23   I mean, they didn't change the computer.

01:06:24   - Well, they're all that.

01:06:25   Every Apple computer is the first.

01:06:28   - I bought the top of the line blue and white G3

01:06:30   when it came out too.

01:06:31   I have no problem buying

01:06:32   the first generation top of the line thing.

01:06:35   I mean, I'm wary about it like everybody else,

01:06:36   but it's not like I have a religion against it.

01:06:39   - All right, well, anyway.

01:06:40   So I said I would do whatever it takes

01:06:43   to get retina on the desktop,

01:06:45   because it is that important to me.

01:06:48   I thought, when I bought this Mac Pro,

01:06:50   that it would be able to drive a retina monitor.

01:06:55   And it can drive 4K monitors,

01:06:58   and you can get the Dell 24-inch 4K monitor

01:07:02   and have it be roughly the right DPI to do true 2X.

01:07:07   You can do all of those things with it,

01:07:09   but it's not great.

01:07:12   You have a desk covered in Dell monitors,

01:07:14   which themselves are not amazing,

01:07:17   and also from what I hear,

01:07:18   very buggy and inconsistent in this usage.

01:07:21   You can do it with the Mac Pro,

01:07:23   but what I really wanted was a giant 27 to 30 inch monitor,

01:07:28   like that size class,

01:07:30   And 4K to do that is either everything is too big

01:07:34   or you do software rendering and artificial scaling

01:07:37   and that reduces quality.

01:07:39   And you might not notice it,

01:07:41   I don't think you'd notice it on a 5K panel

01:07:44   if you simulated a different mode.

01:07:46   On a 4K panel at 27 inches, you might notice it.

01:07:49   We talked about this before,

01:07:50   so I'm not gonna go further into it.

01:07:51   Anyway, I was assuming the 5K monitor

01:07:54   was not going to exist for the next couple of years.

01:07:57   That turned out to be wrong.

01:07:59   I was also assuming that any desktop retina monitor

01:08:02   I would want would be available

01:08:04   in some kind of external form factor,

01:08:05   and that would plug into my Mac Pro with no problems,

01:08:08   and it would work just fine.

01:08:10   That has been wrong so far.

01:08:11   There's the Dell 5K one coming out this winter.

01:08:14   That might do it, but we don't know yet.

01:08:17   And the Dell 4K ones had some issues for a while

01:08:22   with running on certain computers, including the Mac Pro.

01:08:25   Various things like enabling the MST thing.

01:08:27   It's complicated the way it works.

01:08:28   so it's kind of a hack.

01:08:29   5K is even more of a hack

01:08:31   because it needs even more bandwidth.

01:08:33   It has to use two different Thunderbolt

01:08:34   or DisplayPort cables,

01:08:37   and the GPU has to be able to properly multiplex

01:08:40   those together into one signal for one panel.

01:08:43   And there's enough moving parts

01:08:46   or things that are kind of on the edge of standards

01:08:48   or not very well supported standards.

01:08:50   There's enough moving parts here

01:08:52   that I think the chances of the Dell 5K panel

01:08:54   working without weird issues on a Mac Pro are low.

01:08:58   So this came out and the combination of both 5K being available when I thought it wouldn't be for years,

01:09:06   plus the much faster CPU speed for single-threaded use, which is what I'm usually limited by,

01:09:14   that pushed me over the edge where I really did not expect to buy a Mac Pro and then want to sell it 10 months later,

01:09:22   but that's what's happening.

01:09:24   Fun.

01:09:25   Well, that was actually a lot less painful than I thought.

01:09:28   Yeah, I mean, honestly, what's most interesting about it is how relatively boring it is.

01:09:37   There's no weird tricks to how this exists.

01:09:41   No, it's kind of weird.

01:09:43   Two DisplayPort connections inside this thing?

01:09:46   It's weird enough that I'm glad that you're going to take one for the team and a bunch

01:09:49   of people are going to find out what are the weird issues.

01:09:52   I'm excited about the fact that they they tout a power reduction,

01:09:55   which means that it's, you know,

01:09:57   so there's other technologies involved with the screen.

01:09:59   Yeah, I don't know what they're doing to get the power reduction.

01:10:01   I don't know the details of it, but at least it means it's not going to be like

01:10:04   like the water cooled being the power Mac G5, like the water cool.

01:10:07   The computer is just like the hairy edge of what's possible.

01:10:10   But it is kind of at the hairy edge of what's possible,

01:10:12   just not in terms of power and heat.

01:10:13   It seems like they've got that more or less under control.

01:10:15   But I really just don't know what it's going to be like for,

01:10:19   you know, for just day to day use, for gaming, for anything like that.

01:10:23   So I really need I'm you know, I would never buy one of these sight unseen.

01:10:26   You'll probably be OK considering the amount of time something spends

01:10:30   in your house is low because something new and shiny comes along.

01:10:32   But considering I'm sitting here next to a 2008 Mac Pro,

01:10:37   I really want to know what I'm getting before I get it.

01:10:39   And, you know, my recent not so great experience with the Thunderbolt display,

01:10:43   which is brought relatively early in the life of that product,

01:10:45   though not sight unseen, I'd seen them before.

01:10:48   Like I just I'd like other people to sort this out. So you'll tell me all about it when you get one

01:10:52   Oh, yeah, definitely

01:10:53   And and you know, I'm I see a lot of our friends on Twitter Gruber said he ordered one and he buys a computer like every

01:10:59   Ten years so that we were all waiting for desktop red

01:11:02   I mean, what are we even talking about this whole life of the show Marco and I were like, you know

01:11:05   We just need a machine that can run desktop red and that we hope to be the Mac Pro and it wasn't but you Marco bought

01:11:09   one anyway, cuz he's Marco but like everyone all the nerds in our circle are like

01:11:14   Totally, but I mean Gruber is using I think the the 20-inch version of the screen that I have in front of me the the

01:11:20   Aluminum display with white plastic things on the side

01:11:23   I have the 23 and she had the 20 inch one connected like he's just he's been staring at ancient technology

01:11:29   So it was just gonna you know

01:11:30   He's gonna have the world's biggest upgrade in terms of what he's looking at all day

01:11:33   And those are the best kind of upgrades, but it's just like like the go the iPhone 4 you're like wow

01:11:38   No, this is a whole other world. We're in here so and John you're

01:11:43   definitely looking to upgrade your Mac Pro

01:11:46   and this is definitely at least in the running?

01:11:49   - It's in the running.

01:11:50   Like I, again, I was talking about

01:11:51   or before we started recording or before we went live anyway

01:11:55   that every time my poor Mac Pro is just super slow

01:11:58   because of the spinning disks and everything,

01:12:00   I almost buy an SSD.

01:12:01   So many times I'm on that Amazon page.

01:12:03   I'm like, oh, I'm like pricing things out.

01:12:05   I'm getting, you know, looking at reports.

01:12:07   I'm just almost buying it because if I got an SSD

01:12:09   it would seriously extend the life of this machine.

01:12:12   I have a very similar machine, one year newer at work, that's all SSD and it's fine.

01:12:18   But my home is so painful, like "why don't you just get an SSD, they're not that expensive"

01:12:21   and I say no no, what I should do is take that money that I'm about to spend on an SSD

01:12:25   and put it towards whatever my next computer is, whether that's a Mac Pro or an iMac or

01:12:29   whatever.

01:12:30   So looking at the specs of that iMac, it is not ideal.

01:12:33   I like something that's good for gaming.

01:12:35   I worry that even the high end GPU with that kind of resolution is not going to be great

01:12:40   for gaming.

01:12:41   like we're looking at the specs, it looks like it's maybe a little bit weaker than one of the good GPUs in the Mac Pro and

01:12:47   If you're gonna do the Mac Pro for gaming you can you know use them in crossfire mode

01:12:51   So you know at best it's half as fast as the Mac Pro for gaming

01:12:55   And driving more pixels than the Mac Pro has to drive obviously you wouldn't run games that resolution anyway

01:13:00   But anyway, I I want to see some benchmarks first because you know you can't replace it

01:13:05   It's all sealed into one big thing. There's not gonna be any upgrading of it like I upgraded the GPU on my Mac Pro

01:13:10   It is now it's still a vaguely viable gaming machine only because I upgraded the GPU

01:13:16   I can't upgrade the GPU in that iMac

01:13:18   So if I spend four grand on an iMac the screen's gonna look awesome, but how long will it last as my gaming machine?

01:13:23   So I'm still you know

01:13:25   It's like well if I don't buy this iMac

01:13:28   I'm just gonna wait another year for you know for the new Mac pros that can drive the

01:13:32   hopeful eventual

01:13:35   External version of this display. Well, I think it might be two years for that

01:13:39   that actually. If you look at the roadmap and what we're waiting for is DisplayPort

01:13:43   1.3 and Thunderbolt 3, which will most likely come together. And that's not slated to

01:13:50   go into Xeon chipsets for quite a while. It's not even slated to go into consumer chipsets

01:13:54   until at least a year from now, possibly longer if Intel delays anything, which happens a

01:13:58   lot. So I think you might be waiting. That's why I said in my article about the iMac stuff,

01:14:06   I would guess, if I had to guess when Apple would chip

01:14:09   an external version of this monitor, I'd say 2016.

01:14:11   - Yeah, I know, I might be, I mean,

01:14:14   if I had to wait that long,

01:14:15   and then I would just have to get an SSD,

01:14:15   and then it'd be like, okay, well, this is an SSD,

01:14:17   like, the thing that almost gets me

01:14:19   to click the button on the SSD is like,

01:14:21   I'm not gonna throw it away.

01:14:22   If I got a new computer, I would use the SSD

01:14:24   as like a backup drive or something, you know,

01:14:26   like, it's not like I wouldn't, like,

01:14:27   oh, that was a waste of money, 'cause I would use it,

01:14:30   but I'm just trying to, you know, save,

01:14:32   'cause I don't know what I'm gonna do.

01:14:33   But like, the pricing is just so ridiculous,

01:14:35   on like it's similar pricing to the Mac Pro,

01:14:37   but you get a free gigantic monitor with it.

01:14:39   Basically, it comes out there.

01:14:41   And the server versus consumer gap is just embarrassing.

01:14:46   But the other thing is that,

01:14:48   especially with huge amounts of RAM,

01:14:50   I really, it seems silly,

01:14:52   but Marco said it as well in your thing,

01:14:54   like we both have this feeling based on nothing,

01:14:57   which is probably false,

01:14:58   but it's like that ECC RAM

01:15:00   with huge amounts of RAM is a benefit.

01:15:02   And Marco, you attributed like,

01:15:04   well, you know, sometimes I have these weird kernel,

01:15:06   who knows if that's even what is true.

01:15:07   I just feel better.

01:15:08   This is what it comes down to.

01:15:09   I feel better with server class components in ECC RAM.

01:15:12   I just do.

01:15:13   And I don't know if it's completely in my head

01:15:15   or it's a placebo effect or I'm being a sucker

01:15:17   or if really that ECC is correcting one bit errors

01:15:20   all day long and saving me from kernel panics

01:15:22   'cause I cannot remember the last time

01:15:24   I had a kernel panic on this Mac Pro.

01:15:25   This thing is like a champion.

01:15:27   It just, other than its stupid spinning disks,

01:15:29   which I hate with the bloody passion,

01:15:30   it's not the Mac Pro's fault.

01:15:31   They spin, you know, it's spinning rust, whatever.

01:15:33   Everything else about the machine, 100 percent reliable.

01:15:37   And I like that.

01:15:38   And so I would have more faith in the reliability of a second

01:15:43   or third generation boom to Mac Pro.

01:15:46   Who's calls it the boom tube?

01:15:47   Is that wave saying that or was that you anyway?

01:15:49   I would have more faith in that machine just because it's all server

01:15:52   class components and just the cooling system is so incredibly efficient

01:15:55   and probably quieter and all the other things.

01:15:57   But it's ridiculously expensive and not that good at games,

01:16:00   which is why I don't have the current one.

01:16:01   So I don't know, no decision on desktop yet for me.

01:16:04   - Man, but this might be the year of John Syracuse,

01:16:08   as it turns out, 'cause you're gonna have a phone,

01:16:11   you're gonna have a new iPad,

01:16:12   you might have a new computer, you have a new car.

01:16:14   - The year of Casey, you're gonna be a dad.

01:16:16   I don't know if we ever said this on the show,

01:16:19   but you talk about someone who is good at doing dad jokes,

01:16:22   you are already such a dad.

01:16:23   (laughing)

01:16:24   That you were just like, all you're missing is the kid.

01:16:29   the terrible humor, the all this, you are already a dad.

01:16:32   - I'm glad you approve.

01:16:35   - Man, what's gonna happen to your jokes

01:16:36   after the kid's born?

01:16:37   - They'll actually be funny?

01:16:38   - No, he's like, he's been living the dad life

01:16:40   for so long now, just he just didn't have the kid.

01:16:43   All he needs to put it in,

01:16:44   all he needs is a young person to be embarrassed by him

01:16:47   and the system is complete.

01:16:48   (laughing)

01:16:50   - Oh my goodness, all right,

01:16:51   so Marco, you are going to order a maxed out iMac,

01:16:56   almost said iPad.

01:16:57   - Yes.

01:16:58   I think that that's what underscore did as well if I understood a developing perspective correctly

01:17:02   And that seems to be the trend these days. So enjoy your new computer and I am so this is exactly speaking

01:17:08   I like this is exactly what happened when you guys weren't in the Mac community back then

01:17:13   I don't think but when so there's the

01:17:15   Yosemite speaking to somebody g3 and there's the g4s and the wind tunnel and the quicksilver is in the crazy liquid cooled thing and

01:17:22   like all that stuff and the front side bus on Mac's was just ridiculous compared to the CPU speed and we just

01:17:27   It was so sad.

01:17:29   It was like, what's going on here?

01:17:31   We don't, I forget what it was,

01:17:32   like 133 megahertz front side bus

01:17:34   with like a gigahertz and a half CPU,

01:17:36   whatever it was, it was obscene.

01:17:37   It was like, it was just a completely unbalanced machine

01:17:40   and we all hated it.

01:17:41   And everybody was just delaying their purchases,

01:17:43   just like there's no way in hell

01:17:44   I'm buying that piece of crap, you know,

01:17:45   whatever comes out.

01:17:46   You could tell it was just not a good machine.

01:17:48   And so as soon as the Power Mac G5 came out,

01:17:51   we all just bought the top end one.

01:17:52   Everybody, like everybody I knew

01:17:54   had the top of the line dual two gigahertz

01:17:56   Carmack G5 cheese grater.

01:17:58   We just all bought them because it's pent up demand

01:18:00   amongst our little circle of nerds.

01:18:02   So this is pent up demand for desktop retinas.

01:18:05   Now I see everybody I know,

01:18:07   obviously had been saving their pennies waiting patiently

01:18:09   and as soon as this thing dropped, like boom, that's it.

01:18:11   That's what I want.

01:18:12   You know, quad 27 inch displays.

01:18:15   I don't care about anything else.

01:18:16   I don't care if it's an iMac, must have it now.

01:18:17   So yeah, you guys are gonna all be great test drivers

01:18:20   for this new machine.

01:18:23   - Lovely.

01:18:24   - Yeah, I mean, and honestly, like looking at it,

01:18:25   I looked over it, and I was reading an article about

01:18:29   does anybody still need to buy the Mac Pro basically?

01:18:31   And I was partly writing it,

01:18:33   talking to myself about this problem.

01:18:35   Looking at this, I was trying to think like,

01:18:36   all right, what's the catch?

01:18:37   I was trying to find the catch.

01:18:39   And I thought it might be heat and fan noise,

01:18:41   and it turns out the total system power usage

01:18:44   is almost exactly the same as the old one,

01:18:46   whereas the CPU, if you get the big CPU,

01:18:49   which I definitely recommend, the i7 upgrade,

01:18:51   if you get that, it's like two more watts than the old one.

01:18:54   it's not that big of a difference.

01:18:56   The GPU, from what I've been told,

01:18:58   is slightly more power hungry,

01:19:01   but because the display is 30% less power hungry,

01:19:04   it bounces that out.

01:19:05   And so the total system heat and power needs

01:19:09   are pretty similar to the old one.

01:19:11   And the internal design looks exactly the same.

01:19:14   Like it's the same cooling, the same structure.

01:19:17   And that's why it's actually a pretty mature system.

01:19:20   Like this is the same iMac they've been shipping for years,

01:19:23   just with a crazy display on the front instead of,

01:19:26   but the rest of the internals,

01:19:28   like they're not doing anything new and crazy with that.

01:19:31   So I don't actually foresee major problems,

01:19:33   except that if there's a problem with the panels,

01:19:36   if there's a problem with image retention or--

01:19:39   - Yeah, that's what it comes down to,

01:19:40   this screen or the whole dealing

01:19:44   with basically two DisplayPort things coming into one

01:19:46   and integrating them all if there's any kind of weird lag,

01:19:49   like maybe you wouldn't care, but like for game purposes,

01:19:50   but is there any lag introduced with the synchronization?

01:19:54   Does it, you know, think about the dual GPU MacBook Pros

01:19:58   and stuff when that first came out with the GPU switching,

01:20:00   how that was kind of wonky with software,

01:20:02   will there be a similar issue like this?

01:20:03   Like, you never know.

01:20:04   - Yeah, well, but it isn't, see,

01:20:06   the way they've done this panel with the single controller

01:20:09   being treated as a single panel.

01:20:10   - Yeah, no, I understand.

01:20:11   Like, I'm not saying it's the exact same problem,

01:20:14   it's just like when there is a,

01:20:15   when Apple does something for the first time,

01:20:17   like they hadn't done this before,

01:20:18   Like they'd never done a display this way before.

01:20:21   They'd never done GPU searching before.

01:20:23   There's a lot of moving parts to it,

01:20:24   and even though they control the whole stack,

01:20:25   you never know if it's gonna be one of those things

01:20:27   that's like wonky and it gets worked out

01:20:28   in the next generation product, but you know.

01:20:30   - No question, next year when they update these

01:20:33   with desktop Broadwell, if that's coming out next fall,

01:20:36   whenever the case, like desktop Broadwell will come out,

01:20:39   it'll get faster, it'll run a little bit cooler,

01:20:42   it'll run a little bit faster.

01:20:43   Broadwell on the desktop is looking like

01:20:45   it's gonna be something like a 10 or 15% improvement.

01:20:47   These are roughly a 10 or 15% speed improvement

01:20:50   over the ones from last year.

01:20:51   Like that's just like, you know,

01:20:53   that's what you get with desktops.

01:20:54   And so if you really want this right now,

01:20:58   I don't think there's a huge reason to wait for next years.

01:21:01   Because it's no different than any other

01:21:03   one year generational gap in desktops.

01:21:05   Like every year it's gonna get a little bit better,

01:21:08   a little bit faster.

01:21:09   - I know, but like the second year

01:21:11   they do this screen in this way,

01:21:12   you figure they'll have more of the kinks worked out.

01:21:14   Like if there are any kinks,

01:21:15   if there are no kinks then fine, there are no kinks.

01:21:16   But the second year they do the screen,

01:21:18   they'll, you know, like even just like you said,

01:21:20   the image retention on the MacBook Pro is like,

01:21:23   that was an issue, they think they got their suppliers

01:21:26   sorting out, now it's not as bad as it was.

01:21:28   - Yeah, exactly.

01:21:29   And honestly, like the first generation

01:21:31   of Retina MacBook Pro, the image retention,

01:21:34   which only affected some of the screens,

01:21:36   and I happened to get one, which is annoying,

01:21:38   but the image retention didn't affect all of them,

01:21:41   and that was the only problem, like the hardware

01:21:44   in the first generation Retina MacBook Pro was fine

01:21:46   otherwise. Everything else about it I've had zero problems with. Yep, these could

01:21:50   be fine. We'll see. Like, the other thing is that there I think I feel like

01:21:53   there's, this is the wrong term, but like there's more margin of error in gigantic

01:21:57   machines than there is in these little tiny precious devices. Like, I've always

01:22:00   been down on laptops because it's everything is just jammed in there and

01:22:03   there's no margin for error. Whereas the iMac, even though it's all

01:22:06   stupidly thin on the edge and stuff, there's room enough to breathe where

01:22:10   you're like, I don't feel like they're like, if they're trying to wedge things

01:22:14   and don't have room, they're just doing it to themselves.

01:22:17   I feel like they have a better-- I mean, so far,

01:22:19   the Mac Pros-- well, actually, I have heard stuff

01:22:21   with the Mac Pros.

01:22:22   Here's some things I've heard with the Mac Pros,

01:22:24   like dropping network connections.

01:22:25   What is the other one?

01:22:26   It's one other thing that I've heard with Mac Pros,

01:22:29   like wonkiness with the hardware,

01:22:31   with the first generation boom tube Mac Pros.

01:22:34   Oh, yeah.

01:22:34   I totally forgot I've been using a first generation Mac Pro.

01:22:37   It's fine.

01:22:37   I've had zero problems.

01:22:38   Yeah, yours is fine, but I've heard other people have

01:22:41   a couple weird things here and there.

01:22:43   if they're using more demanding Thunderbolt type scenarios

01:22:45   or whatever, yours has been fine too.

01:22:46   Like, I mean, I bought a first generation power mic G5

01:22:49   and that machine was fine too.

01:22:50   Like it's a crap shoot, I just, you know.

01:22:53   And it's not like I've said never buy one,

01:22:56   just let everyone else buy one,

01:22:57   see how it is for a month or two,

01:22:59   and then, you know, patience is rewarded.

01:23:01   - Oh yeah, well although I was worried with this

01:23:04   that it might get into back order

01:23:06   because I suspect it's gonna be amazing

01:23:09   and because it is the computer

01:23:10   that all of us have been waiting for,

01:23:12   or many of us have been waiting for,

01:23:14   I suspect it's gonna, if there's any supply constraints,

01:23:17   we're gonna see that pretty soon.

01:23:19   - It was like the Mac Pro,

01:23:19   like that was so hard to get one of those,

01:23:21   and it's not because they were selling a bazillion of them,

01:23:22   it's just because it's so weird and exotic,

01:23:24   it's just not a lot of, you know.

01:23:26   - Exactly.

01:23:27   So, how's the review?

01:23:29   - Yeah, I always forget every year, like,

01:23:33   - Wow. - You think it's gonna come

01:23:35   and you're gonna be so relieved that it's done,

01:23:38   but then I forget, it doesn't, that's not how it goes,

01:23:40   Like you publish it and there's no like a moment of triumph or relief,

01:23:47   because as soon as it's published, you just you know, it's I mean,

01:23:51   Marco must I was like releasing software.

01:23:53   Then you're just inundated with like the bug reports and worrying about,

01:23:57   you know, how the launch is going and server capacity or whatever.

01:24:00   And like and that just kind of like fades away.

01:24:04   Like eventually like is this big rush of crap that you have to deal with?

01:24:07   And it's just a pain in the butt.

01:24:08   And you run around like a chicken with your head cut off

01:24:09   and you're worrying about this and you're worrying about that and you're fixing things and dealing with ebook stores and going back and forth and

01:24:14   you know responding to comments and Twitter and going through and just and that just that just slowly very gradually tapers and

01:24:22   Then eventually just Peters off and then you just left like that

01:24:25   It's not it's not as exciting

01:24:28   like I feel like it'd be more exciting if you're like a movie director and you work really hard in this movie for a long

01:24:32   Time and then you go to like the opening night and it's like there's nothing you can do about it

01:24:36   then like you're not even responsible for making sure the projector doesn't break.

01:24:39   It's like, well, the movie is done.

01:24:41   People are going to see it.

01:24:42   It's completely out of my hands.

01:24:44   Nothing I can do about it unless I decide to grow a really big neck beard and wait 16

01:24:48   years and ruin the year.

01:24:51   So it's not like that for software.

01:24:53   It's certainly not like that for web services or anything having to do with public facing

01:24:58   websites and stuff like that.

01:24:59   It's not really like that for my review either because it's not like I get it all put to

01:25:03   bed, publish it, and then just wash my hands of it.

01:25:05   and run around like crazy fixing things. And that never is fun, it doesn't feel good. But anyway,

01:25:12   done. So is this the last review? Probably. No, this is the worst possible time to ask you

01:25:19   that question though. I know, that's why I'm not committing to it. If people keep asking me,

01:25:22   I'm not going to give you a firm commitment, but I'm going to tell you realistically that

01:25:25   right now I'm thinking yes, definitely, but I'm not going to make the decision until later. Until

01:25:30   I can make the decision clear of this haze and whatever.

01:25:34   Fair enough. What was different about this review in terms of the creation process?

01:25:41   It's about the same as the past couple. Every year, I'm always worried about what things

01:25:49   I'm going to get wrong. What I've been trying to do is steer myself towards the places that

01:25:52   I can add value in the review because realistically speaking, I have to have this thing done,

01:25:58   edited, copy-edited ebooks generated and sent to the ebook store basically before the final version of the OS is done.

01:26:05   So if you know one of the things I can't one of the

01:26:09   you know one of the values that I cannot bring is I can tell you

01:26:15   intimate details about how the final retail

01:26:18   installer binary works because I don't even have the final retail install by until you're already reading the review right like my thing

01:26:25   goes live the second Apple pushes the button

01:26:27   to publish the thing.

01:26:28   And in fact, my thing went live before

01:26:30   people could actually get Yosemite.

01:26:31   So I have no idea how the retail installer

01:26:33   from the Mac App Store works.

01:26:34   I have no idea what it's gonna,

01:26:35   I just have to go based on what the latest GM candidate

01:26:38   I had at the time I made the things were.

01:26:40   So there's whole categories of things

01:26:42   that have to do with specific details of the final bits

01:26:45   that people are gonna get

01:26:45   that I just simply can't address.

01:26:46   Unfortunately, you have to kind of try to address

01:26:49   some of them and hope you get it right.

01:26:50   And then that's the frustrating part of like,

01:26:53   oh, actually they did change this in the very latest GM

01:26:56   that I didn't have a chance to test with.

01:26:58   Oh, this is actually different than the retail version,

01:27:00   the version that I never actually saw

01:27:01   until you already read my review.

01:27:03   And so, someone who reads my review six months from now

01:27:06   is gonna be like, huh, that doesn't happen to me

01:27:07   when I do it.

01:27:08   It's like, yeah, you're right, it doesn't.

01:27:10   But I had to go with the information I had at the time.

01:27:13   And of course by then, 10.10.3 will be out,

01:27:15   which could behave differently anyway.

01:27:17   So there's whole categories of things

01:27:19   that I just can't address in a reasonable manner.

01:27:22   And then even the things I can address, like tiny little details, those are the things

01:27:27   that change at the last minute.

01:27:28   So you can't spend, you know, three pages and then have it edited and copy edited talking

01:27:33   about some minute feature that changes three times in the last three developer builds.

01:27:37   Like when you just wasted all your time writing.

01:27:38   And if you're a full time writer, maybe you can dedicate those last three or four days

01:27:42   to just working like mad.

01:27:44   But my per day time that I can allocate to this is fixed and very small because I have

01:27:48   a full time job.

01:27:50   So yeah, that's a frustrating part of doing this.

01:27:55   So I try to basically steer the review towards the parts

01:27:57   that I can address.

01:27:58   It's like broad strokes, what does this OS mean

01:28:00   for the platform?

01:28:01   What are the important features and how do they impact

01:28:04   what the Mac is like to use and how the Mac fits in

01:28:06   with Apple's other platforms and blah, blah, blah.

01:28:08   So that's where I spent almost all my time.

01:28:10   And the last few reviews have been moving towards that.

01:28:12   But the process of writing it has just been the same

01:28:14   as I think the past three or four reviews,

01:28:16   especially since the past three or four have also had eBooks.

01:28:19   I've kind of been in this silly thing of writing and dealing with the production process and

01:28:24   dealing with the ebook stores and dealing with ebook formatting and every year it's

01:28:27   some different thing.

01:28:29   I think I more or less have it down now.

01:28:31   It's just disappointing.

01:28:32   Like, I have video and I entertain thoughts that perhaps I would have the video inside

01:28:35   the ebooks because the first year I was going to have inline video while also doing an ebook,

01:28:39   but inline video in ebooks is so insane.

01:28:41   You can do it!

01:28:42   It can be done in iBooks, but if you look at what the requirements are for inline video,

01:28:46   like, I stopped when I hit requirement number one.

01:28:49   number one dictated aspect ratio.

01:28:50   I'm like, no, I have this cute little movie of this window.

01:28:53   You've seen a little movie of the, you know,

01:28:55   showing the controls animated.

01:28:56   That's the aspect ratio I made the window.

01:28:58   I, you know, one story about the production process

01:29:01   of this book, and I want to go too far into it

01:29:03   'cause it's inside baseball and nobody cares,

01:29:04   but this is the one that drove me nuts in this one.

01:29:06   So this little movie, this little inline movie

01:29:07   showing animated controls with this little silly mock-up

01:29:10   I made in Interface Builder, just, you know,

01:29:12   with a bunch of check boxes so I can check them and stuff.

01:29:14   And I wanted to make the movie

01:29:15   a similar aspect ratio to this window.

01:29:17   And so I can't do it in iBooks right away.

01:29:19   It wants an aspect ratio that's like,

01:29:20   I don't remember if it was 16 by nine or four by three

01:29:22   or whatever it was, it wasn't my aspect ratio.

01:29:24   I'm like, well, screw you.

01:29:25   I'm not making a ridiculous video like that.

01:29:26   My thing is skinny.

01:29:28   I'll just link it, which works fine.

01:29:29   It's just not in line.

01:29:31   But to make that movie, it's on a retina screen, right?

01:29:36   I need to record the movie,

01:29:38   but I have so little knowledge about video production

01:29:42   and so little software having anything to do

01:29:44   with video production.

01:29:45   Like I probably could have done this with FFmpeg,

01:29:46   which I have installed, but I have no idea what I'm doing.

01:29:48   Right. So my only tool at my disposal is like, you know, rocks and sticks here

01:29:53   is to use QuickTime screen capture and QuickTime screen capture

01:29:58   as you capture a portion of the screen by dragging out a little rectangle.

01:30:01   I have to drag out a rectangle that's exactly twelve eighty pixels wide

01:30:06   by whatever. Oh, God.

01:30:09   On a retina screen.

01:30:10   So it has to be twelve eighty retina pixels.

01:30:13   you know, whatever it is, 960 points, right?

01:30:17   All right, and when you drag it out like that

01:30:19   in QuickTime Player with the exact picture dimensions,

01:30:22   you have to go through the motions of me,

01:30:24   go through the motions of me clicking the things

01:30:26   and tabbing from fields to fields

01:30:27   and unchecking the checkboxes.

01:30:29   You have to do that first.

01:30:31   Get a nice sequence, save the movie,

01:30:34   and then look at the movie you saved and see if you

01:30:36   got the dimensions right.

01:30:37   You know how many times I took that movie?

01:30:39   You know how many times I checked those checkboxes?

01:30:41   Oh, and by the way, Apple changed

01:30:42   the look of the controls and the control animations

01:30:44   like three times.

01:30:45   I've made that movie so many freaking times.

01:30:47   The system I had for trying to get like an exact movie,

01:30:53   some people think it's Snaps Pro, I have Snaps Pro,

01:30:55   but like I don't like to install third party things,

01:30:58   especially if they involve keks on Yosemite systems

01:31:01   or on the system that I'm testing,

01:31:02   'cause I don't wanna take third party software,

01:31:04   which may or may not be sort of validated for Yosemite,

01:31:06   'cause then I can say, oh, it was a buggy

01:31:08   and it was kernel panicking, maybe it was Snaps Pro doing it.

01:31:09   I just wanna use Apple software.

01:31:11   So my technique was to use Xscope,

01:31:13   the icon factory's great utility,

01:31:15   that has a million tools for making like retina hairline

01:31:18   guides and stuff like that.

01:31:19   And I had like wires all over my screen,

01:31:21   exactly framing the part that I wanted to do.

01:31:23   And then I would use the accessibility zoom

01:31:25   when making the rectangle.

01:31:27   It's just, it was insanity.

01:31:28   Anyway, that was the most ridiculous,

01:31:30   crazy part of doing this.

01:31:31   For a thing that nobody cares about,

01:31:33   it's not even an important part of the review,

01:31:34   but I sunk a lot of time into it.

01:31:36   So there, there's something that's different.

01:31:38   I had to make an inline movie this time.

01:31:41   - For whatever it's worth, that was a great movie.

01:31:43   It actually really helped a lot.

01:31:44   I really enjoyed watching it.

01:31:45   - That was like the worst performance of like,

01:31:47   because I had hooked up an external mouse

01:31:48   'cause I'm so bad with a touch pad.

01:31:50   The one that's in the review is a touch pad

01:31:52   and I hate how it looks like I'm like a handicapped person

01:31:54   moving that mouse around.

01:31:56   Like I'm not--

01:31:57   - I didn't get that impression.

01:31:58   - Limited mobility.

01:31:59   And I feel like it was not an accurate representation

01:32:03   of my mousing skills.

01:32:04   But like at that point I was so tired.

01:32:06   At that point, I was so tired of like,

01:32:08   as I just have one mouse and I have to disconnect it

01:32:10   from my own computer, I don't have a spare mouse.

01:32:12   And I was so tired of doing that,

01:32:13   I just did the last 17 runs to get that thing right

01:32:15   with the touch pad.

01:32:16   And I'm like, you know what?

01:32:17   It's the right dimensions.

01:32:19   It came out okay.

01:32:20   The background was correctly framed.

01:32:22   I don't care that the mouse looks a little stuttery.

01:32:24   - I'm sorry, I'm still stuck

01:32:25   on not an accurate representation of my mouse.

01:32:28   - I think everyone who uses the trackpad is,

01:32:30   I think the trackpad,

01:32:31   I think we've gone through this before,

01:32:32   is an inferior input method in terms of speed and accuracy.

01:32:36   Maybe I'll completely agree, but like yeah, if you just look if all you could see was a screen capture of cursor movement

01:32:42   I feel like I can tell if it's someone using a touchpad versus a mouse. I agree the people who use the magic trackpad

01:32:48   I believe that's what it's called. They I don't understand how they do it. They're more interested in comfort then which is fine

01:32:53   It's a reasonable trade-off like well. You know I don't care about accuracy. It's not a race

01:32:56   I'm more interested in the comfort of my hands, and you know they're more comfortable swiping their fingers across the surface

01:33:02   But I'm very interested in efficiency, and I grew up with the mouse so mouse forever

01:33:06   Yeah, I completely agree with you.

01:33:09   All right, do you want to go through—I do have some questions to ask about bits and

01:33:13   pieces of the review.

01:33:14   Is there any general thought—are there any general thoughts that you have before I ask

01:33:18   you these?

01:33:19   I have tons of general thoughts, but I wrote most of them down in a conveniently concealable

01:33:23   form.

01:33:24   So yeah, you can just—like, I'm sure I'll bring up Yosemite stuff later.

01:33:28   I mean, I'm sure I will talk more about why I think this will be my last one in some

01:33:34   future show, but one of the aspects of it is that I just have so much pent-up things

01:33:38   to say about this, and it pains me so much in the world where this public bid is that

01:33:43   everyone gets to talk about it.

01:33:45   And this thing is in that review that I wrote a week after WWDC, and I just had to sit there

01:33:50   with gritted teeth for three months while everyone else has these same discussions,

01:33:54   and then just hope that I don't end up saying all exactly the same things, and I can't

01:33:57   be like, "Well, I totally wrote that a week after WWDC!"

01:34:00   It was just...

01:34:01   Ugh.

01:34:02   Anyway.

01:34:03   of things to say about Yosemite, and a lot of them have already been said by other smart

01:34:07   people, which is a shame, but what can you do?

01:34:10   Fair enough. I'd like to start my dissection of your review by asking you if the reference

01:34:17   on page 15, the caption on page 15, which I believe is a movie reference, this is the

01:34:22   picture of your family. Is that a reference to the Godfather? Because if so, I'd like

01:34:26   to celebrate that victory quietly by myself.

01:34:29   - You're embarrassing yourself by asking that question, Case.

01:34:31   (Case laughs)

01:34:33   Shouldn't have to ask.

01:34:34   You should proudly say that,

01:34:36   "Hey, did you know that I got the reference

01:34:38   "under this picture," or whatever,

01:34:39   and I would say that in a good case.

01:34:40   - But the thing is, I've only seen like 10 minutes

01:34:42   of that movie.

01:34:43   I've just heard the quote a thousand times.

01:34:44   - Don't tell me that.

01:34:44   Don't tell me that.

01:34:45   - That's not a lie.

01:34:46   - Watch "Godfather I" and "II."

01:34:47   They're great movies.

01:34:48   - Actually, I was just listening to Snell and Mike

01:34:51   talk about how "Godfather III" doesn't exist.

01:34:53   - They're more or less right.

01:34:55   But like I said, you'll have plenty of time late at night

01:34:59   you pace back and forth in front of the television holding your child you can

01:35:02   watch the entire movie many times over. Also, ph15 included my favorite line of

01:35:06   the review which is "in Yosemite as in life think carefully before starting a

01:35:11   family." Oh yes! Everybody loved that is that is the most popular line of the review and I

01:35:16   am I don't like that line at all I almost didn't put it in because I

01:35:18   thought it was terrible. Oh it's so good I actually wrote that down and I almost

01:35:22   skipped right over some glad Marco that you remembered. I give that line of

01:35:25   - Thumbs down, everyone else likes it though.

01:35:27   - Double thumbs up for sure.

01:35:29   - You're reviewing your own review.

01:35:32   - I think I deleted it like three times.

01:35:33   I'm like, you know, whatever, it's not good.

01:35:37   - John, I love you.

01:35:38   - Oh my God.

01:35:39   - On page 19, you talked about SMS and messages.

01:35:47   And I have a couple thoughts on that.

01:35:48   First of all, I think that's huge

01:35:52   because I spend an inordinate amount of time

01:35:55   in front of my computer, particularly during the workday.

01:35:58   And although I don't exchange that many traditional SMSs

01:36:01   with that many people, being able to fire one off,

01:36:05   well, receiving one and more importantly,

01:36:08   being able to fire one off by using the keyboard on my Mac,

01:36:11   that strikes me as awesome.

01:36:14   But one of the things I wanted to ask you,

01:36:16   which you may or may not know the answer is,

01:36:18   does that piece of continuity,

01:36:21   does that require BTLE as well, or is that just Wi-Fi?

01:36:26   - I don't know the answer to that actually.

01:36:28   I think, no, I think it just requires

01:36:32   plain old Bluetooth and might work over Wi-Fi,

01:36:34   but no, I do not know the answer to that.

01:36:35   Like with these things that require iPhone integration,

01:36:39   a lot of these didn't work in a reasonable way

01:36:42   until very late, and then they stopped working entirely

01:36:44   and then worked again with the 8.1 beta,

01:36:45   so I did not have a lot of time to go into these.

01:36:47   I just basically had enough time to do them,

01:36:49   to see that they work, to see what it was like to do them,

01:36:51   to try to use them with these little fake conversations

01:36:53   with my wife in various places.

01:36:55   And this, by the way, was an advantage of me

01:36:58   having my non-smartphone.

01:37:00   I can send SMSes, not easily,

01:37:01   'cause I gotta type them in on a number pad,

01:37:03   but I had a device ready at hand

01:37:06   that could not use iMessage,

01:37:08   and so I was sending myself SMSes and stuff like that.

01:37:10   - You could have just turned iMessage off on that phone,

01:37:13   but whatever.

01:37:14   - Yeah, I mean, this is like, like I said in the review,

01:37:16   this is kind of like a, it should have always been this way,

01:37:18   like there should have always been this symmetry

01:37:20   between, you know, if the iPhone can do it,

01:37:23   why can't the Mac?

01:37:23   Once you have messages on the Mac, it's like,

01:37:25   well, but of course you can't get SMS

01:37:26   'cause it's tied to blah, blah, blah.

01:37:27   Like, you just need, if you've got the phone

01:37:31   and you've got the messages and the phone can,

01:37:33   like, these are all things,

01:37:35   this is a lot of the stuff in Yosemite, it's like,

01:37:37   it's almost like the iPhone and the Mac

01:37:39   were made by two different companies

01:37:40   for the amount of integration they had.

01:37:42   Like I said in the review, in retrospect,

01:37:44   it's shocking how little integration there was

01:37:46   between these two platforms for no good reason.

01:37:49   Like the technologies were there.

01:37:50   It's not like Apple suddenly invented Bluetooth and Wi-Fi.

01:37:53   Like these things could have been talking to each other,

01:37:55   could have been cooperating,

01:37:56   could have been on the same page for so long.

01:37:58   So now it's almost like SMS,

01:38:00   I don't know if it's going away.

01:38:02   It's hard, you know,

01:38:03   if you're in a circle with everyone who uses iPhones

01:38:05   and your whole family uses iPhone,

01:38:06   you're like, "Oh yeah, SMS is dead."

01:38:07   But in reality it's everywhere, right?

01:38:09   But I see the rise of these messaging services

01:38:13   like Line and whatever those other, you know,

01:38:15   like non-SMS messaging services

01:38:18   that are very popular throughout the world.

01:38:20   And I just have to feel like-- and I hate SMS

01:38:22   for the past-- I have to feel like that technology-- not

01:38:24   the idea of sending people text messages,

01:38:26   but that particular technology for doing so,

01:38:28   I'll be glad when that's gone.

01:38:30   But if it ends up hanging around for a much longer time,

01:38:33   it's good that it's integrated and everything.

01:38:36   I still worry about reliability issues, not so much

01:38:41   of the software, but of the server component of messages

01:38:45   and SMS and the gateway and all that.

01:38:47   It's now just-- now you've got one more thing that can be out

01:38:50   of sync or only in one place or inexplicably out of order or whatever. But, you know, better

01:38:56   late than never.

01:38:57   I think also, I really enjoyed what came, I think, right after this, which was the unification

01:39:02   of the phone calls thing. I thought you made some very good points there. And I'm looking

01:39:08   forward to this world of like, I can, you know, if somebody calls me and I'm sitting

01:39:13   at my computer with my headphones on, I can just swing the mic over and pick it up and

01:39:17   talking to them like that. I didn't quite appreciate really

01:39:21   until I read the over that part of your review. I didn't quite

01:39:23   appreciate like how that will change the world of being a

01:39:27   human being in front of a computer most of the day in this

01:39:30   subtle and and quickly forgettable way. But that's

01:39:34   that's substantial. I think

01:39:35   Yeah, I don't know how much I time you'll find out how much

01:39:38   time you spend on the phone, but I don't spend a lot of time on

01:39:40   the phone. But I totally expected that phone feature to

01:39:42   be wonky or weird. And there's a potential just like a lot of

01:39:46   the iCloud stuff for it to be wonky or weird because if it is wonky or weird

01:39:50   you like so many iCloud features you have no place to go to check for it

01:39:54   right but it you know I didn't put this in the review because I refused but it

01:39:58   more or less just worked like and it's just worked for a long time like the

01:40:02   betas and everything like this I never had a problem with it it did what it's

01:40:06   supposed to do like you call and the thing appears and you can answer it

01:40:09   there and like if they had all sorts of little nice feature like your ring your

01:40:13   ringtones and everything are there and I think someone said I didn't try this

01:40:15   someone said like if you do, if that UI is up and you do the numeric keypad on your keyboard,

01:40:20   it makes the little beepy sound like the tone sounds if you're using a touch tone,

01:40:23   you know, menu system. Like I can imagine doing it, for example, like I've always, you know,

01:40:28   you have to be like on hold with Amazon for a year and a day or some are more likely on

01:40:32   home with like a cable company or something and like to be able to do that while farting around

01:40:36   on your computer without having to keep your phone on speakerphone on your desk with the sound

01:40:40   bouncing off of your desk, like to just have it all integrated into the computer thing. Or even

01:40:44   or even if you just want to record a call,

01:40:47   sometimes you use Google Voice or Grand Central,

01:40:49   whatever that is, where you can do calling

01:40:53   from your web browser.

01:40:54   And it's just nice to have everything integrated.

01:40:56   And again, this technology was there.

01:40:57   It's not rocket science, it's just audio.

01:40:59   The integration is nice.

01:41:02   And as long as it doesn't fall down,

01:41:05   which I didn't see it fall down, it's just like,

01:41:06   oh yeah, we should always have done that.

01:41:09   Why were we not doing that?

01:41:11   It's just, they could have done that with the iPad,

01:41:13   with the iPhone 1 practically, like if they did it over Wi-Fi.

01:41:16   Like it's not, you know, telephone voice, it's nothing.

01:41:20   - Well, I think they're doing it over Bluetooth for,

01:41:23   I assume, 'cause you know, the whole handoff thing,

01:41:25   it has the ability to create an ad hoc Wi-Fi connection

01:41:28   for higher bandwidth stuff like file transfers,

01:41:30   which is what AirDrop does.

01:41:32   But this could plausibly work entirely

01:41:35   over Bluetooth's bandwidth.

01:41:36   - Oh yeah, certainly.

01:41:37   And you'll also be shocked at how bad,

01:41:39   again, how bad phone sound quality is.

01:41:41   - Yeah.

01:41:42   - My wife calling your other parts of the house,

01:41:43   Like it sounds terrible, 'cause phones sound terrible.

01:41:45   Plain old regular phones, not, you know.

01:41:49   Yeah, but it's cute, the interface is nice.

01:41:52   Yeah, good job Apple.

01:41:54   - Well, it also, this will make phone calls less disruptive.

01:41:59   Like when you're at a computer and you get a phone call,

01:42:01   you gotta get the phone under your pocket,

01:42:03   you gotta take your headphones off

01:42:04   if you were wearing headphones.

01:42:05   - See who it is. - See who it is, yeah.

01:42:07   This makes that so much less disruptive.

01:42:09   - It'd be easier to screen your calls

01:42:10   without having to dig stuff.

01:42:12   - Yeah.

01:42:13   - I mean, I have the same thing at work,

01:42:15   even with my non-smartphone.

01:42:16   When I hear my non-smartphone ringing,

01:42:18   I have to pull it out of whatever drawer

01:42:20   or like pocket or backpack it's in

01:42:22   to see is it my wife calling

01:42:24   or is it someone with the wrong number

01:42:25   speaking to me in Spanish?

01:42:27   And it's like 50/50.

01:42:28   And I would much rather just look

01:42:29   at the upper right corner of my screen

01:42:31   and tap a little button to ignore

01:42:32   when I know it's not, you know.

01:42:34   - See, but this is evidence that Marco works

01:42:37   out of the house because if I get a phone call,

01:42:40   my first reaction is to grab my phone and run away

01:42:44   from the team area that I'm sitting in

01:42:46   so I can be prepared to answer the phone.

01:42:49   And half the time when it's the person

01:42:50   who doesn't know me speaking Spanish,

01:42:52   I don't realize that until I'm already like 10 steps away

01:42:55   from my desk area out of earshot of all of my coworkers.

01:43:00   - Yeah, well that's like,

01:43:01   even if you're gonna answer it on your phone,

01:43:04   merely just using it as a caller ID type of thing.

01:43:07   - Oh yeah, oh I completely agree, yeah, yeah.

01:43:09   - Yeah, which is a feature I had with BluePhone Elite

01:43:11   in 2005, and then as soon as the iPhone came out,

01:43:15   that stopped working. (laughs)

01:43:17   But it was, when I had it for that one year

01:43:19   on my dumb phone, it was amazing.

01:43:21   - Yeah, like I said, it's almost like these platforms

01:43:24   made by two different companies

01:43:25   for the incredible lack of integration they have,

01:43:27   which is supposedly supposed to be

01:43:28   like Apple's big advantage,

01:43:29   like, oh, one company makes everything

01:43:31   and it can all work together,

01:43:32   but there was this crazy separation

01:43:34   between the Mac and the iPhone

01:43:35   that now is finally coming down in a meaningful way.

01:43:38   Yeah, and I think your point was very apt that until now, Apple's internal org chart

01:43:48   division was showing up too much in the products. And I think this is, as you said, this is

01:43:53   like an important tearing down of that wall.

01:43:56   Yeah, and really, I think the introduction and conclusion are very similar, as they always

01:44:01   are. But I really felt this with using this OS and writing this review. It now feels like

01:44:08   I can't include the watchness because who knows what the hell's going on there, but iOS and the Mac at least feel like

01:44:13   One sort of unified platform being worked on by one team like in that that every idea they come up with

01:44:20   It'll be like how does this idea apply to both platforms like extensions?

01:44:25   So they could have just done iOS 8 extensions and be like well iOS needs some way to extend it because it's been this super

01:44:30   Lockdown platform. We totally don't need those on the Mac right because the Mac you can already do all sorts of crazy stuff

01:44:34   I said no

01:44:34   We're gonna make an extension thing and we're gonna bring it to the max like why would you why would you want to bring extension?

01:44:38   You can already do all sorts of crazy stuff with the Mac.

01:44:40   The Mac doesn't need it.

01:44:41   iOS needs it.

01:44:42   Don't waste your time on that.

01:44:43   It's like we are making this extension mechanism

01:44:46   we think is the best extension mechanism we've ever made

01:44:49   in terms of safety and, you know,

01:44:51   an API that we can support and blah, blah, blah.

01:44:54   And why wouldn't we bring this to every one of our platforms?

01:44:57   Why would we say,

01:44:58   "And the Mac can continue just to have loadable bundles

01:45:00   that will, you know, crash system UI server

01:45:02   and make everybody sad."

01:45:03   Like, no, they bring it to both of them

01:45:05   and they bring it to both of them in a way

01:45:06   like you can actually share code between them.

01:45:07   I know it's not exactly the same

01:45:09   and no, you don't have to make the Mac use UI kit,

01:45:11   but there's enough sharing between them.

01:45:12   Like it's being addressed as a holistic thing.

01:45:15   And I don't know if I went into this too much

01:45:17   in the conclusion.

01:45:18   I would have liked to hammer on it more,

01:45:19   but like the idea that Apple is viewing its customers

01:45:23   as people who use multiple devices in their lives

01:45:25   rather than viewing their devices

01:45:27   as targets for software that they make, right?

01:45:29   Where it stopped thinking about the iPhone

01:45:33   as a piece of hardware

01:45:34   and we want to write awesome software for it

01:45:35   to make it a great product.

01:45:36   And the iPad is a piece of hardware.

01:45:37   we want to add awesome software for it

01:45:38   to make it a great product.

01:45:39   And the Mac, blah, blah, blah, like,

01:45:41   that is, you're looking at hardware

01:45:43   and then you're writing software for it

01:45:44   and then you see this product and you're like, done.

01:45:46   Whereas what they should be looking at is,

01:45:47   people who buy our stuff are individual people.

01:45:50   One person, and that one person,

01:45:53   if they're a good Apple customer,

01:45:54   has an iPhone, has a Mac, maybe has an iPad.

01:45:57   And that one person does not divide themselves up

01:45:59   between those three devices, it's just one person.

01:46:02   They have one set of stuff,

01:46:03   they have one set of people that they know,

01:46:05   it's all like the cloud stuff comes into it

01:46:06   and the Google stuff as well, but like,

01:46:09   we should be addressing that person's need

01:46:11   and that person's needs have nothing to do with

01:46:14   what we think in the abstract we should make,

01:46:16   this is the best phone we can make,

01:46:17   this is the best Mac we can make.

01:46:19   And that person says, but I'm just one person,

01:46:20   I don't care that that phone is awesome over there,

01:46:22   the Mac is awesome over there,

01:46:23   how can you make them both awesome for me?

01:46:25   So I really like the fact that it seems like

01:46:28   Apple's platforms are now being addressed

01:46:31   as a sort of, you know, one thing, you know,

01:46:35   We want you as the customer to be able to use our stuff

01:46:39   and it's all one big thing.

01:46:41   And if we can blur distinctions between these,

01:46:43   if you can move from one into the next

01:46:45   and your stuff comes with you

01:46:46   and we can make them not look the same

01:46:49   but like have a similar feel,

01:46:50   it's another big thing I might not have gone into

01:46:52   as much as I really wanted to.

01:46:53   Like how Yosemite does not look like iOS 7

01:46:56   but there's a family resemblance.

01:46:58   Like it's not like we have to make it pixel for pixel

01:47:00   to act like iOS 7, but they look similar enough.

01:47:03   And so you feel like you're going from room to room

01:47:05   in a big house, but you own the whole house

01:47:07   and all your stuff is everywhere.

01:47:09   This is why I didn't write that, that's a bad analogy.

01:47:11   (laughing)

01:47:14   - Oh goodness.

01:47:15   The other thing I wanted to mention on page 19 was,

01:47:18   this one line is a great example

01:47:22   of what I love about reading your reviews.

01:47:24   Because your reviews are very approachable,

01:47:28   even for someone who doesn't have the background

01:47:30   that say all of us have.

01:47:32   And the best part is they have this tone and character

01:47:36   to them that's very serious.

01:47:37   And then there's these little drops,

01:47:39   like what Marco brought up a minute ago

01:47:41   with the quote from the other page

01:47:44   about think carefully before starting a family.

01:47:47   And here on page 19, also,

01:47:49   that dog totally looks like Harrison Ford.

01:47:51   That's so random and so delightful.

01:47:55   - It's not random.

01:47:56   Did I say-- - No, that was a meme.

01:47:57   I've seen that before, yeah.

01:47:57   - Yeah, it was a meme.

01:47:58   Like, I hope-- - Oh, I didn't even know that.

01:48:00   I just thought-- - I know, there's a lot

01:48:01   references you don't get Casey just assume that I know I think I've said

01:48:04   before on the show I you know people always ask like are you gonna make like

01:48:08   a compendium of old ebooks or and that's to be like a huge amount of work and I

01:48:11   have no idea if I'm ever gonna do that but one thing I always fantasize about

01:48:14   doing which I probably also won't do is just going back through all my overviews

01:48:18   and annotating all the references which I don't know who that would be for other

01:48:21   than me maybe it has an audience of one but I guarantee nobody who's not me no

01:48:26   got everything because they're super obscure like they're practically from my

01:48:30   own private life like oh this is a reference to a friend I had in

01:48:33   kindergarten like you know with it it's from that all the things that everybody

01:48:36   should know right but they're everywhere like I put them it's how I entertain

01:48:40   myself while I write stuff so anyway the Harrison Ford dog that was a meme and

01:48:43   everyone sent it to me and I thought it was awesome and I thought I sent it to

01:48:45   you but apparently I didn't send it to Casey but it's super small in the review

01:48:49   so if you don't know that meme you might still squint at the dog and go that tiny

01:48:53   squinty dog does kind of look like Harris but that's exactly what I did

01:48:56   Super looks like go Google for the mean.

01:48:58   All right.

01:49:00   Good to know.

01:49:00   Um, on the next page, you made an extremely bold claim, or maybe I shouldn't say

01:49:06   claim statement that was just in the middle of, or actually it was at the very

01:49:11   end of the page, Apple's cloud services may finally be on the right track.

01:49:15   I'm going to ask you the stupid quest leading question.

01:49:19   Do you really mean that?

01:49:20   I do.

01:49:21   I didn't remember when I came out of the cloud kit, a WBC session.

01:49:24   I think everybody who came out of the session was like,

01:49:27   "Oh, geez, finally."

01:49:28   Because if you have any experience either implementing

01:49:31   sort of web services yourself

01:49:32   or being a customer of other people's web services,

01:49:34   you know what's out there.

01:49:35   Like if you've used Azure or the Amazon things

01:49:38   or you've written services yourself,

01:49:39   you kind of know what everybody's doing in the web space.

01:49:42   And then over here, it was like Cloud Core Data,

01:49:44   which is this mutant alien.

01:49:45   There was nothing like any of the other services.

01:49:47   And Cloud Kit was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah,

01:49:50   that's more or less what we've all been doing that.

01:49:52   And now you're doing that.

01:49:53   and you're doing a good job at it.

01:49:54   It looks totally plausible,

01:49:56   like it's the way someone implementing it,

01:49:59   you know, way someone like well-versed in the art

01:50:01   who is not an Apple would implement something like that,

01:50:04   is kind of like that.

01:50:05   And it's the way people who write Mac apps

01:50:07   have been writing their own little services to, you know,

01:50:10   when they had to sort of roll their own,

01:50:11   everyone was making stuff like that.

01:50:13   And now Apple's making one and it's a really good one

01:50:15   and it's well thought out

01:50:16   and it has all the advantages that Apple had

01:50:17   and it's like, oh, geez, finally,

01:50:19   like no more web objects,

01:50:20   no more porting a local only API to suddenly be cloud-based.

01:50:25   It's just no more weird impedance mismatches,

01:50:28   no more doing things differently

01:50:31   based on weird technologies that Apple really loves

01:50:33   but that no one else likes.

01:50:34   It was just straightforward, simple, good,

01:50:38   kind of like SceneKit was too,

01:50:40   where it's like, it's not like they bring in people

01:50:42   from the outside world and don't force them to do it

01:50:45   like the "Apple way" and just say,

01:50:48   use current best practices to do a really good job

01:50:51   and then leverage Apple's expertise

01:50:52   and infrastructure to do that.

01:50:54   And that's what cloud could look like.

01:50:55   And like I said in the review,

01:50:57   if it's not, Apple is screwed too,

01:50:58   'cause they're building everything on it.

01:51:01   There's still the server backend to worry about,

01:51:03   there's still reliability concerns,

01:51:04   there's still plenty of ways they can screw this up,

01:51:07   but it seems like it's on the right track.

01:51:10   Because if you're trying to build something weird

01:51:12   and it's buggy, you're like, look,

01:51:13   first of all, you're building some weird thing

01:51:15   and no one else is doing it like that,

01:51:16   are you sure this is the right way?

01:51:17   And second of all, it's full of bugs.

01:51:18   If you're building something more straightforward

01:51:20   or more in line with best practices,

01:51:22   and then it's buggy, you're like,

01:51:23   well, you're building the right thing.

01:51:24   You just gotta get better at it.

01:51:25   Like, I feel like you're halfway there, you know?

01:51:28   - Yeah.

01:51:29   No, and I mean, I'm not arguing.

01:51:30   I'm just, it was a bold statement.

01:51:33   I'm impressed.

01:51:34   - I mean, I don't think I said that

01:51:35   when iCloud came around.

01:51:36   Like, mobile me going, like, that was a good move,

01:51:38   like, to can that and to, you know, to, yeah.

01:51:41   It was a good idea to clean house and pick a new name,

01:51:43   but that wasn't a big turnaround.

01:51:45   CloudKit, that WWC session really convinced me that there are at least some people there

01:51:52   who know what the right thing to do is and are being allowed to do it.

01:51:57   Which is definitely an improvement.

01:52:00   The next page is page 21, and it's the beginning of the Swift section.

01:52:06   And I should point out to begin with that Chris Latner actually linked to this review

01:52:14   saying, "Hey, the Swift section was really good."

01:52:16   And I thought that was tremendous.

01:52:19   So congratulations for that.

01:52:21   Genuinely, I think that's extremely awesome.

01:52:24   - Everyone should follow him

01:52:24   because he is the ideal person to follow

01:52:27   in that he is interesting and famous and smart

01:52:31   and does not tweet a lot.

01:52:33   So you just follow him, you forget you even follow him,

01:52:36   and then one day he'll tweet something

01:52:37   and you'll be the first one to know

01:52:38   'cause no one else follows him.

01:52:39   So everyone follow Chris Lattner.

01:52:41   - Yeah.

01:52:44   I'm trying to find it and I can't, so I'll just move along.

01:52:46   But it was a really short tweet, but a really nice tweet.

01:52:49   And that to me is a pretty big stamp of approval.

01:52:53   So you should be proud of that.

01:52:55   The Swift section was great.

01:52:56   I also liked the end of the first page of the Swift section,

01:52:59   which again is page 21,

01:53:01   wherein you said, "Print line, are you not entertained?"

01:53:04   That would be Gladiator, just FYI.

01:53:06   - I think that predates Gladiator.

01:53:10   I know that's where everyone knows it from.

01:53:11   That's basically where I know it from.

01:53:13   Are you really taking my moment away from me right now?

01:53:16   Don't you think like anyone?

01:53:18   You are the worst.

01:53:19   Yeah, but that but seriously, though, like when when I found out you could do that,

01:53:22   which was at WWDC, you know, because we didn't know anything.

01:53:25   The switch was announced and like, you know,

01:53:29   pound bang user in the Swift and just start typing.

01:53:31   I'm like, what?

01:53:32   And then you say, oh, you're not entertained.

01:53:34   Oh, come on.

01:53:37   I almost use an entire bag.

01:53:39   Are you?

01:53:40   - You almost used an interopag, oh my lord.

01:53:44   - It's impressive, like that, you know,

01:53:46   if you didn't have a handle on what Swift was,

01:53:48   like you come out of the keynote, you're like,

01:53:49   I don't know what this crazy Swift thing is,

01:53:50   but it's like, it's crazy, I don't know what's up here.

01:53:52   And then you find out that it's like,

01:53:54   it's what I tried to lay out in the Swift thing,

01:53:56   it's so much of the Swift discussion on the web

01:53:59   has been not ignorant enough,

01:54:02   'cause everybody knows this,

01:54:03   but focusing on whatever they wanted to focus on

01:54:05   and not focus on like Swift's obviously

01:54:09   very publicly, right in front of your face, stated goal.

01:54:12   And the goal sounds crazy and stupid, and maybe it is.

01:54:15   Like I went into that, maybe that's the problem,

01:54:16   like their goal is crazy and stupid,

01:54:18   but their goal is to make this language

01:54:20   that goes right from these little,

01:54:21   you just start typing, you put a little line

01:54:23   at the top of your thing, you just start typing the file,

01:54:24   you just run it.

01:54:25   You go from that all the way up to,

01:54:27   oh, you write in HoloOS in this.

01:54:28   And that sounds ridiculous.

01:54:29   And maybe, you know, maybe it is ridiculous,

01:54:31   and maybe that is the root problem with the language,

01:54:32   but people will be like,

01:54:33   I don't understand why Swift is doing this thing.

01:54:35   It's like, it's in the goal,

01:54:37   like if someone gave you this project and said,

01:54:39   I want you to make a language that can scale from scripts

01:54:42   all the way up to writing an operating system.

01:54:44   That would inform everything you did about language design.

01:54:47   And when people complain about features, they're like,

01:54:50   "Oh, I don't like this, you could have done this."

01:54:51   I was like, "Yes, but then the language

01:54:53   wouldn't have been able to span this ridiculous range."

01:54:55   And so I feel like what people should be disagreeing with

01:54:57   is the mission of the language.

01:54:59   That's where people should be focusing their anger

01:55:00   and say, "It's stupid to make a language

01:55:01   that spans this range."

01:55:02   What you should be doing is just making

01:55:03   a really good Objective-C replacement.

01:55:05   And I like the idea of the ambition of this.

01:55:12   It's easy for me to say because I'm not an iOS developer

01:55:14   or a Mac developer who's going to be forced

01:55:16   to deal with this transition.

01:55:17   We're just going to be bumpy.

01:55:19   But as an outside observer, I like the guts

01:55:23   of someone trying to do that.

01:55:24   Saying that's what they're going to do,

01:55:26   not keeping it a secret, but saying,

01:55:27   this is what we want to make, and we think it's possible,

01:55:30   and this is how we think we can do it.

01:55:31   And that just incredible clarifying lens

01:55:34   for everything having to do with Swift.

01:55:36   The things you like, the things you don't like,

01:55:38   the directions you might think it will go in the future,

01:55:40   you have to look at that mission.

01:55:42   And it could be they changed that mission.

01:55:43   They said that mission was dumb,

01:55:44   it unnecessarily hamstrung us,

01:55:46   we're dropping one into the other of it

01:55:47   and we're changing language.

01:55:48   But if you were to look back at what Objective-C looked like

01:55:51   in 1989 or whenever when it first came out

01:55:54   and compare it to Objective-C today,

01:55:55   I'm gonna say it's time to at least give Swift a chance.

01:55:59   It is so incredibly new,

01:56:01   it is gonna look so amazingly different

01:56:04   and hopefully much better if it's given a couple years to cook, especially at the rate

01:56:09   Apple has been improving its dev tools over the past, you know, say five, 10 years.

01:56:13   Objective-C did not get that much better until Apple sort of took it and ran with it in the

01:56:18   last decade or so.

01:56:20   Yeah.

01:56:21   One of the things that was interesting to me about the review, specifically about Swift,

01:56:25   was that there was a lot of very subtle,

01:56:28   I don't know, like get on board guys kind of tone to it.

01:56:35   And I agree, I mean, I haven't really played

01:56:37   with Swift much because I've barely had time

01:56:40   for anything lately, but everything I've seen

01:56:42   is really impressive.

01:56:43   And your review just made it even more impressive,

01:56:47   being able to see exactly how a lot of this stuff

01:56:51   is held together.

01:56:52   And so I agree with you.

01:56:54   I mean, for all the curmudgeons out there,

01:56:56   I don't think that's really necessary.

01:56:58   I really think this is going somewhere good.

01:57:00   - That's what I was most interested in.

01:57:01   Like, I was coming at it from my perspective,

01:57:03   I'm using high-level languages all day,

01:57:04   I'm using Perl, JavaScript, stuff like that,

01:57:06   that is so far from dealing directly with memory

01:57:10   or so far from being efficient,

01:57:12   basically I'm dealing with incredibly slow languages

01:57:14   from the perspective of someone dealing

01:57:15   with C objectives here, C++, right?

01:57:18   But it's great because you don't have to worry

01:57:19   about all these concerns that people dealing

01:57:22   with lower-level languages have to deal with.

01:57:23   deal with. It's just so much more efficient and productive and just and Swift the promise of Swift was like

01:57:28   We're going to be you know, it's a it's a low-level language of the high-level syntax

01:57:33   We're going to we're gonna span this huge range and when you use it, it's gonna feel like so nice

01:57:37   You don't have to worry about all these little details. We'll take care of it for you or whatever when you run it

01:57:40   it's gonna be fast like those other languages that you had to spend all day writing type names a million times and and

01:57:44   using funny syntax and worrying about memory and

01:57:48   and pointers and all sorts of stuff like that's the promise of the language and

01:57:51   What I was interested in is from the perspective as a high-level language programmer

01:57:56   How can you possibly make that fast because all these other high-level language you've uses

01:57:59   Even when huge amounts of money and time and effort and brain power has been put towards them

01:58:05   It's really hard to make them fast

01:58:06   And JavaScript is the best example that it has had just like millions and millions probably billions of dollars and some of the the smartest

01:58:12   programmers in the entire world

01:58:15   Focusing on trying to make this terrible language that someone made a long time ago fast because everywhere because you have to it's in the web

01:58:20   Browser right and then lesser languages like Perl or Ruby or Python have far fewer brains and far less money

01:58:26   Also trying to make them fast because they're running on the servers, you know, and then you've got Java which is a whole other thing

01:58:31   But like the nice high-level languages that people really love

01:58:34   trying to trying to make that language fast and

01:58:38   It's easy to make a low-level language fast

01:58:41   It's straightforward like C. You can say like I can totally you know I can see but if you look at C

01:58:46   You can see the assembly is like portable sound like

01:58:48   Exactly what that goes into like all the dots connected whatever, but if you're gonna have a high-level language like Java

01:58:53   It's so much harder to be efficient because you have to like

01:58:56   To make things fast you have to tie things down

01:58:59   But if you tie things down it's a pain in the butt to use and so I wanted to know is that you know in

01:59:03   A language like Swift where even the what we think of as the basic types like integers and strings are defined in a library

01:59:09   how can you possibly get that to be fast?

01:59:12   How can you sort of bolt that infrastructure

01:59:15   all the way down into the compiler?

01:59:16   And it's not easy.

01:59:17   Like if Swift had been invented in a vacuum, right?

01:59:20   So it just, this is the syntax, it looks like this,

01:59:22   but all I'm doing is typing.

01:59:23   And then you just handed that language spec off to somebody

01:59:25   and said, now make this really fast.

01:59:28   There are so many different approaches you can take.

01:59:30   If you are not, you know, Chris Ladner and his team

01:59:33   or someone who has written LLVM and Clang and everything,

01:59:36   you could take the approach that for example,

01:59:37   Perl or Python or Ruby have taken

01:59:40   and they have changed their approaches over the years,

01:59:41   there are lots of different, or JavaScript for that matter,

01:59:43   there are lots of different ways to make engines

01:59:45   for high level languages.

01:59:46   The way they made this engine for a high level language,

01:59:49   you know, for example, in Perl or JavaScript

01:59:53   or Ruby and stuff, well, I don't know enough

01:59:55   about Ruby to say this, but in Perl or JavaScript,

01:59:58   like the basic types that you use are not defined

02:00:02   in a library whose source code you can see,

02:00:04   like they're part of the language.

02:00:05   I didn't even see, like, integer is part of the language,

02:00:07   or short, or float.

02:00:09   Like, that's part of the language.

02:00:11   That's not a library that you can plug in.

02:00:13   And in Swift, they made everything a library,

02:00:15   and then just found this clever way

02:00:17   to bolt that library to what they knew

02:00:18   would be the implementation of the language.

02:00:21   So that I found fascinating.

02:00:23   And what I tried to pick was the easiest possible example,

02:00:25   and it still expanded into, like, thousands

02:00:27   of words of annotated source dumps or whatever.

02:00:31   But that's more or less as simple as I can get it.

02:00:33   But I think the implementation is fascinating.

02:00:35   I think the language, like I'm a high level language type of guy,

02:00:39   and I hate all of these static typing stuff

02:00:41   that everyone complains about about Swift.

02:00:42   Like I hate that stuff too.

02:00:43   I don't want to deal with types at all.

02:00:45   I want everything to be dynamic.

02:00:47   I don't want anything to be tied down.

02:00:48   So in that respect, Swift is totally against my personal taste in this.

02:00:53   I don't think static typing is necessary to make good code.

02:00:56   I linked to a lot of things that people, you know,

02:00:57   there's a lot of things on the web on both sides of this argument.

02:00:59   I linked to some of the better known pieces in the Swift section

02:01:02   about how dealing with type systems is BS

02:01:05   and it just gets in your way

02:01:06   and I don't wanna deal with that crap at all

02:01:08   and the errors that you think it's saving,

02:01:10   it's all just voodoo

02:01:10   and really if you just had a dynamic language,

02:01:12   everybody would be better and happier and more productive

02:01:14   and that's what really matters and blah, blah, blah.

02:01:16   We can all have that debate

02:01:17   but bottom line is Swift is not that kind of language.

02:01:20   Swift is trying to be the button down, tied down,

02:01:23   static everything language that I really hate

02:01:25   but trying to make it palatable

02:01:27   and it's super interesting in that respect.

02:01:29   So if you came away from that thing,

02:01:30   I think Swift is awesome.

02:01:32   Swift is not the language that I would design.

02:01:34   It doesn't look like, it doesn't match my tastes at all.

02:01:38   But it does match its creator's tastes,

02:01:40   and it does match the, it is a good fit for the mission

02:01:45   that the creator set out for the language.

02:01:47   What it doesn't match up with so much is,

02:01:50   if you really, really like Objective-C,

02:01:52   and you love dynamic dispatch, and you love calling,

02:01:56   you know, selectors, making selectors out of strings,

02:01:58   and then calling them and doing all that good stuff,

02:02:00   which again, I'm with you.

02:02:01   I'm using even higher level languages.

02:02:04   I'm doing all sorts of crazy stuff.

02:02:05   I'm doing string of als.

02:02:06   You don't even know what's going on in JavaScript

02:02:07   and Perl these days, right?

02:02:09   I'm totally with you, right?

02:02:11   But that's not the language Swift did.

02:02:12   And that is a source of tension.

02:02:13   And that's, I don't know how they're gonna deal with that.

02:02:15   Plus Swift has to deal with all the Objective-C integration,

02:02:17   which is such a pain in the butt

02:02:18   that's putting warts all over,

02:02:20   like, why is this wart in Swift?

02:02:21   Why the hell is this here?

02:02:21   Why does this work this way?

02:02:22   What's this special case rule?

02:02:23   It's all because it's gotta work

02:02:24   with existing Objective-C libraries in a semi-idiomatic way.

02:02:28   And it's all, you know, that it's not afraid to have warts

02:02:31   and it's got plenty of them.

02:02:33   But I just hope five years from now,

02:02:35   this experiment goes well and that all the people who

02:02:39   are cranky about it, I guess, will join the people who

02:02:41   are cranky about dot syntax.

02:02:43   I guess it's probably the same people.

02:02:44   [LAUGHTER]

02:02:46   It's just like, you know, time marches on

02:02:49   and some new kid coming up five years from now,

02:02:51   hopefully, will start learning his iOS development in Swift

02:02:54   and think it's perfectly fine and natural.

02:02:56   And if he ever sees Objective-C, it'll be like,

02:02:58   "Oh God, what were you guys doing?"

02:03:01   I hope it will be okay, I think it'll be okay.

02:03:05   Smart people behind it, so I'm optimistic.

02:03:08   - Yeah, it's funny how many people I've talked to,

02:03:10   developer friends of mine, usually in the Microsoft world,

02:03:13   but nevertheless, developers I've spoken to

02:03:15   over the last few years who have said,

02:03:17   "Oh yeah, you know, I'd really like to mess around

02:03:19   "with writing an iPhone app, but oh God,

02:03:21   "that Objective-C syntax, I can't even look at it,

02:03:24   "it's so bad."

02:03:25   - Those people are never gonna write an app anyway.

02:03:27   Oh, yeah, yeah, it's like the square brackets is the least of them, but I'm just saying like if you come from another mobile platform

02:03:32   and you're like

02:03:33   What I have to dereference pointers. Why are all these stars on your declarations like have you seen C?

02:03:38   It's like what are you guys doing? I don't have to deal with any of that stuff

02:03:41   I don't you know

02:03:42   So like that in that respect

02:03:44   And I've gotten people complaining to me that Swift is not a higher language level language than Objective C

02:03:48   Which I think is crazy like that's why I put that whole section in there

02:03:50   Which is a reference that Casey doesn't get the title of

02:03:53   To show look it looks like a high-level language right guys like if you use Python if you use Perl or Ruby or JavaScript like

02:04:00   This on if you know if you just have a passing familiar look high-level language look no pointers ma look

02:04:05   Maybe native quote unquote native strings. I can just do basic things

02:04:09   I have collection classes there is just all that stuff that we've been adding to objective C with literals and everyone's happy

02:04:14   It's like no regular language. Just have that

02:04:16   It is a convincing a high-level language at a glance before you know

02:04:21   what's going on with it and everything.

02:04:23   And yet some people were saying,

02:04:23   "Swift's not really a high level language

02:04:25   because it has static dispatch

02:04:26   and I need to make my selector names out of strings

02:04:28   and call them and if I can't do that, it sucks."

02:04:30   (laughing)

02:04:32   Inherit from NSObject, use the Objective-C runtime.

02:04:35   You can still kind of do it.

02:04:36   But anyway, that chasm will be solved

02:04:40   by old people retiring.

02:04:42   (laughing)

02:04:44   Oh my God.

02:04:45   - I love you, John.

02:04:48   All right, so on page 22,

02:04:50   a couple of quick notes. First, there is a link, the first of actually what ended up

02:04:55   being many links to MSDN, which made my C# developing heart smile. And additionally,

02:05:02   I wanted to ask you, was all of the work figuring out this glue between Swift and the x86 op

02:05:12   code? Was that all your work by yourself? Did you have help with that? How did that

02:05:15   come to be?

02:05:16   Well, I have helped with all these things.

02:05:18   Like, I lean on these smart people

02:05:20   that I have contact with to ask questions

02:05:22   and to help me run experiments or whatever.

02:05:24   But I mean, the good thing is that you only

02:05:26   need a little shove in the right direction by smart people.

02:05:30   They don't need to hold your hand through everything.

02:05:32   Because I have all the tools at my disposal.

02:05:34   All these-- this is one good-- the developer tools,

02:05:37   even though Swift has changed a million times,

02:05:39   maybe it's just because as an environment,

02:05:41   I feel natural and like I'm programming all day.

02:05:43   That's my job.

02:05:43   All you got to do is point me in the right direction.

02:05:46   I have the command line tools, I can write code,

02:05:48   I can figure out flags to commands,

02:05:51   I can write a little test programs, I can figure it out.

02:05:56   I just need to be like, you should look over here

02:05:59   and think about this, and that's why I picked

02:06:01   a super simple example, because I'm not particularly

02:06:03   familiar with x86-64 assembly, so I can't just look at this

02:06:06   and know what it is, I had to look up all those stupid things

02:06:09   and that's why it's like, what's the simplest thing?

02:06:11   Adding two numbers together, I can handle that.

02:06:13   Like, I don't wanna get fancy, it's gonna be hard enough

02:06:15   to figure out the adding two numbers together. But I just had questions. I just didn't know how

02:06:18   it worked. I wanted to figure it out. And so, yeah, I had a lot of help with this,

02:06:23   but mostly in terms of like, here's what you want to look at. Here's what you want to do.

02:06:29   This example will be instructive for this thing because I would have questions about,

02:06:37   well, what about this and that or whatever? And it would be like, actually, if you're interested

02:06:40   in that concept, this example is different. And so even some of my examples I was led to was like,

02:06:45   Like the example you're trying to do

02:06:47   will never explain that concept to you.

02:06:50   Use this example instead.

02:06:51   So, I mean, it's true with all these things.

02:06:53   So like Arc was the other one was in a similar vein of like,

02:06:57   you know, Arc was explained fairly well,

02:06:58   but there's like a lot of questions about like,

02:07:00   how exactly does it work inside and how does it relate to it?

02:07:03   And like, and you know, even just like the why's like,

02:07:06   getting to talk to people who are involved in the process

02:07:08   and they're like, why Arc and not garbage collection?

02:07:12   Like why specifically let's get into mitigation?

02:07:14   Like the Swift section was the most similar, I think,

02:07:16   to the Arc section.

02:07:17   It's no coincidence that it's, you know,

02:07:18   both developer technologies, both, you know,

02:07:21   in sort of the same vein

02:07:23   and the same kind of team doing stuff, so.

02:07:25   - No, I thought this, the section was extremely interesting

02:07:30   and I haven't worried about assembly in a long time

02:07:34   and getting pretty much all the way down to that level

02:07:37   was a fun adventure into things I've long forgotten.

02:07:40   So I really enjoyed it.

02:07:42   And people who actually know this stuff,

02:07:45   and use it, like Mike Ash or something,

02:07:47   there's nothing groundbreaking.

02:07:49   Anyone who cared could have figured all this out

02:07:51   and probably did, right?

02:07:52   All the people who are actually writing Swift,

02:07:54   like if you go to, what is Mike Ash's thing,

02:07:57   Friday Q&A or whatever, there is some,

02:07:59   like those guys actually know it.

02:08:01   They don't need any help from Apple to,

02:08:02   Apple should hire them if they're not,

02:08:04   like Apple's probably tried to hire them any time.

02:08:06   You know what I mean?

02:08:08   That's a whole other category of things.

02:08:11   I'm just pecking on the outside here,

02:08:13   getting help from those type of people.

02:08:15   So there is no groundbreaking stuff here.

02:08:17   It's just, this is what I,

02:08:19   which is why I think I try to explain it

02:08:21   to people even farther outside.

02:08:23   If I can have it explained to me and figure it out,

02:08:27   I feel like I might be able to explain it to someone else.

02:08:29   So that's why, even though that section

02:08:31   seems like it's impenetrable,

02:08:33   I feel like anybody,

02:08:34   even if you know almost nothing about computers,

02:08:35   can be led through it and you get the gist of it.

02:08:38   You're not gonna know all the little details.

02:08:39   I don't know all the little details.

02:08:41   A lot of it is just output from the compiler

02:08:44   that I can sort of figure out more or less what it's doing.

02:08:47   Again, because the thing is so simple

02:08:49   and I can say, this is that inline.

02:08:51   Why is this that inline?

02:08:52   'Cause I can look, it's the same stuff,

02:08:53   but it's put over there.

02:08:54   And I can figure out these,

02:08:55   I know enough about assembly, I can figure out,

02:08:57   well, some things are different

02:08:58   because the arguments are in different places,

02:09:00   but I can, if you know the concepts,

02:09:01   it's like, how do you return from a function?

02:09:03   Like, they're basic concepts that everybody would learn

02:09:05   in like a CS class.

02:09:07   Armed with even just that,

02:09:08   you can more or less make heads or tails

02:09:10   of this type of thing.

02:09:11   So I'm sort of an ambassador to people

02:09:13   who know slightly less than I do,

02:09:15   and I know way less than the people

02:09:17   who actually know what the heck they're doing.

02:09:18   (laughing)

02:09:20   - Fair enough.

02:09:20   The next thing I wanted to comment on was the,

02:09:26   what's SIL stand for, Swift Intermediate Language?

02:09:28   Is that right?

02:09:29   - Intermediate or intermediary, yeah,

02:09:30   one of those two words.

02:09:31   - All right, well, either way.

02:09:33   You had written at some point,

02:09:36   and I believe it was on page 23,

02:09:38   although I don't know if that's correct.

02:09:40   It's possible that the larger purpose of SIL

02:09:43   has not yet been revealed.

02:09:45   Do you have any particular thoughts

02:09:46   about what that might mean?

02:09:49   Like, do you have any thoughts

02:09:50   as to what SIL would be used for?

02:09:53   - No, if I had it, I would have put it in there.

02:09:54   I just, I could just get it like,

02:09:56   so in those diagrams, like this is not a minor thing, right?

02:10:00   Adding an entirely new intermediate representation

02:10:03   and language that essentially,

02:10:05   like that no one writes things in, right?

02:10:09   That is a significant step.

02:10:11   And is that, it's just like, well, we needed to do that

02:10:13   because LLVM IR doesn't have,

02:10:15   doesn't retain enough information about the source language

02:10:17   for us to perform certain optimizations.

02:10:18   Yes, that's totally true.

02:10:19   That's like why it's there, right?

02:10:21   And it is interesting, but that's a long way to go.

02:10:24   So I have, maybe that's all there is to it.

02:10:26   Like I don't have any inside information.

02:10:27   I'm not hinting at anything.

02:10:28   If I had a theory, I would be telling it to you now.

02:10:31   All it is is like,

02:10:33   it just seems like another big box in the diagram

02:10:35   and another language to support

02:10:37   for those people building these tools,

02:10:39   they must've thought it was important enough to,

02:10:41   'cause they could've left that phase out

02:10:43   and just tried to bridge the gap between LVM IR

02:10:48   and the source code with a smarter compiler.

02:10:52   I mean, it's like what Clang does for C and C++.

02:10:54   They didn't make a new intermediate language

02:10:56   for those things.

02:10:56   We can more or less draw a line from those languages,

02:10:59   even though they're fairly complicated, especially C++.

02:11:01   We don't need a whole other third representation

02:11:04   in the middle there, but for Swift they did.

02:11:06   And I assume they have, again, it's so young,

02:11:11   this may be a future-proofing thing.

02:11:15   So much of Swift, when I look at it,

02:11:16   I say this has nothing to do with where Swift is today,

02:11:19   but they're like, three years from now,

02:11:22   there's an end game in mind.

02:11:23   These are the type of optimizations

02:11:26   I would like to be able to do three years from now.

02:11:28   They're barely a glimmer in my eye now.

02:11:29   There's no way in hell we can do those optimizations now,

02:11:31   but I'm going to do everything in my power

02:11:33   not to preclude them later.

02:11:35   So maybe CIL has something to do with like

02:11:38   leaving those doors open and saying,

02:11:40   if I'm gonna do that optimization,

02:11:41   what am I gonna need is a thing like this.

02:11:43   And so make a thing like this now for these reasons

02:11:45   and later on we hope it will be useful for these reasons.

02:11:48   There's a lot of, that's kind of like a programming

02:11:50   anti-pattern like a YAGNI ain't gonna need it.

02:11:52   They need it now, they need CIL now

02:11:55   to do the optimizations that I talked about

02:11:56   for the generics and the, they don't need,

02:11:59   but it's useful for that purpose.

02:12:01   as I said in the review,

02:12:02   the optimization I showed in similar ones,

02:12:04   would be awkward or impossible.

02:12:09   Like would it be impossible, impossible?

02:12:10   No, you can always do it.

02:12:11   I mean, you can always write whatever you want

02:12:14   when you're writing the compiler for this thing,

02:12:15   but it's certainly a lot easier with CIL,

02:12:17   which is much closer to the source than LLVM IR,

02:12:21   which is much closer to assembly.

02:12:23   So no, nothing specific there.

02:12:25   - All right.

02:12:26   I'm a little disappointed.

02:12:27   I was hoping you were being coy, but that's all right.

02:12:30   So I only have two more quick points or questions, I guess more points that I wanted to make.

02:12:36   On that same page, which is 23, in the Shape of the Future section, you made passing reference

02:12:43   to Pearl having too many funny characters, which made me extremely happy because I forget

02:12:49   that you actually do acknowledge that Pearl is not the best thing that's ever been conceived.

02:12:54   Well, what I was acknowledging was that other people think it has too many funny characters.

02:12:58   Oh, God.

02:12:59   Never mind.

02:13:00   to say because it's like saying English has funny characters. What's all this punctuation?

02:13:05   It's pointless and it's noisy. It would be so much nicer if it was just all a series

02:13:08   of lowercase letters, which is how a lot of people write online because it's like this

02:13:12   weird affectation. But no, punctuation and capital letters serve a purpose.

02:13:15   What's the point of all these types? They're just noisy.

02:13:18   Well, that's bad Huffman coding because it is frequently typed and really super long.

02:13:27   If you can distinguish between arrays, dictionaries, and scalars, having a single character to

02:13:32   denote each of them is much better than doing some crazy Hungarian notation, which is also

02:13:35   much better than having no distinction and just having to remember.

02:13:38   So I do not agree that Perl has a bunch of line-wise.

02:13:42   I think all the punctuation in Perl, with the exception of the global variables, which

02:13:45   are just silly nonsense left over from Shell, Auke, Hangover from years ago, but dollar

02:13:49   sign, at, percent sign, Swift should have them, and it doesn't.

02:13:53   But I didn't design Swift, so there you go.

02:13:56   All right.

02:13:57   final point which I wanted to make was from the very last page, page 25. And it might

02:14:02   have even been the very last line. Let me see. No, it's not. But you had said, and

02:14:07   I'm quoting, "Apple has shown that it wants to succeed more than it fears being seen as

02:14:13   a follower." And I thought that was extraordinarily astute and a really, really, really good summary

02:14:18   of Apple today. And I just wanted to congratulate you on that.

02:14:21   Well, that's like, you know, the other part that's in a similar vein, I think, on that

02:14:25   that same page was like, the list of things Apple will never do is slowly turning into

02:14:29   the list of things Apple has done.

02:14:32   With the absence of Steve Jobs and Tim Cook coming on and Scott Forstall leaving or whatever,

02:14:39   the rule set has changed, mostly for the better.

02:14:43   And iCloud Drive is what I was thinking of with Apple being more afraid of not having

02:14:52   a good product than they were like say well aren't you just copying dropbox like what's worse being

02:14:56   someone saying you're copying dropbox or not having a feature like dropbox that people have

02:14:59   proven that they love so icloud drive is like you know is it an admission of defeat

02:15:04   yeah and then that's that's what stops them from doing it like we can't do that we've

02:15:09   had all this time we're saying we're not going to show people the file system it's like well

02:15:11   we can do folders but we'll do them like on ios where you got to drag things on top of each other

02:15:15   you know like it was in a mountain lion and stuff like just what are you are you afraid of people

02:15:19   saying you're copying Dropbox or you're afraid of having a crappy product. Well,

02:15:22   for the past couple years you've had a crappier product than you needed to because of this,

02:15:26   you know, Dropbox is a feature not a product. It's like, and I don't even know if it was the

02:15:30   right move. Like maybe the right move would be to stick to your guns and actually do come up with

02:15:34   something better. But if you can't do that, going with the thing that you know people like is better

02:15:39   than sticking with something super crappy. So it's a spectrum. I don't think this is the biggest move,

02:15:44   but it shows that Apple's willing, shows that Apple's willing to do it. And, you know, again,

02:15:49   Again, I don't even know if I'm gonna use iCloud Drive.

02:15:51   I, like everybody else who's a nerdy person

02:15:54   probably listening to this show,

02:15:55   we've all been using Dropbox, right?

02:15:56   I have some complaints about Dropbox,

02:15:58   but it still has some advantages over iCloud Drive.

02:16:00   I'm wigged out by not knowing

02:16:02   whether everything's all synced to iCloud Drive.

02:16:04   I'm used to looking at my little menu bar icon

02:16:05   and seeing a little green check mark

02:16:06   to know that everything is synced,

02:16:08   not just an individual file.

02:16:09   So I don't know, but yeah, I'm glad.

02:16:15   This is the new Apple doing things

02:16:17   that they normally don't do.

02:16:18   talking to the press more, being more open with developers,

02:16:23   having a swift blog that actually has more than one post

02:16:26   on it, you know, it's a brave new world.

02:16:30   - It is indeed.

02:16:31   Any closing thoughts?

02:16:33   - I don't know, you just read the conclusion

02:16:35   of my review out loud and then we'll close the podcast.

02:16:38   (laughing)

02:16:40   - I think we're done.

02:16:41   I think we're done.

02:16:42   - Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.

02:16:44   I forgot who they even were.

02:16:46   (laughing)

02:16:47   It's been so long.

02:16:48   - I mesmerized you.

02:16:50   - Mandrill, Squarespace, and Igloo.

02:16:52   And I'll see we, and we'll see you next week.

02:16:55   (upbeat music)

02:16:59   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

02:17:01   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

02:17:04   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:17:05   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:17:06   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

02:17:08   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:17:09   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

02:17:11   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

02:17:14   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:17:16   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:17:17   is accidental. And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm. And if you're into Twitter, you

02:17:24   can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M. Anti-Marco Arment,

02:17:40   S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

02:17:45   It's accidental, accidental

02:17:48   They didn't mean to

02:17:50   Accidental, accidental

02:17:53   Tech podcast so long

02:17:58   Oh man, I'm tired.

02:18:00   You know what, do you want to give any more references that you got in the review or is that it?

02:18:04   That's all you said.

02:18:05   In terms of movies, that was it.

02:18:07   That's pretty bad.

02:18:08   Thanks.

02:18:09   I was a trap for you. I'm sorry, Casey, but I feel like, all right, that's fine.

02:18:13   That's cool. I know I'll never be good enough for you, John. It's cool. I go to a lot of

02:18:19   therapy for this.

02:18:21   Again, how low do we have to make the bar?

02:18:24   Oh, God! You are such a jerk!

02:18:29   Is there any pop culture reference that you would feel like if another person didn't know

02:18:35   it, you would be surprised? Another person who lives in the same country as you, similar

02:18:39   age, similar sort of like income, like similar life experience. And you would just be shocked

02:18:44   if they did not get this reference. Like, is there anything?

02:18:47   - You know something from Super Troopers, Spaceballs?

02:18:50   - No, I'm saying like, go deeper than that. Go to like Mickey Mouse. How about that? Someone

02:18:54   who's never heard of Mickey Mouse has no idea who Mickey Mouse is, what Mickey Mouse looks like.

02:18:57   Is it a mouse that like crawls around the ground? Does it have fur? Nothing. Would you be like,

02:19:02   oh my God, how can you not know Mickey Mouse? Like, is that what we have to go to?

02:19:04   - Do you really want an answer to this question?

02:19:07   - No, you're like super troopers, like that is pretty,

02:19:10   I'm saying like, you know, 'cause for me,

02:19:13   in my generation, which granted you guys

02:19:14   are maybe a little bit younger, Star Wars is the one.

02:19:17   Like have you heard of Star Wars?

02:19:19   Maybe you haven't seen it, I don't even care if you've seen

02:19:20   it, but you know Star Wars is a thing.

02:19:22   Maybe you've heard of lightsabers, maybe you know

02:19:23   what Darth Vader looks like, that's all I'm asking, right?

02:19:25   And so, and then as you go close, like that's my sort

02:19:28   of baseline, as you go up, like if I'm gonna make

02:19:30   a Star Wars reference, like a well known,

02:19:31   like if I say may the Force be with you,

02:19:33   and you're like what the hell are you talking about,

02:19:34   what do you mean by Force?

02:19:35   then I'm gonna, you know, and if you're the same age as me

02:19:37   and have similar life experience to me,

02:19:39   I'm gonna be surprised.

02:19:40   And so you always shock me with the things

02:19:42   that you don't know.

02:19:44   And in this review, I had references to things

02:19:46   on the caliber of and sometimes identical to Star Wars

02:19:49   that apparently you didn't see.

02:19:51   - Such as?

02:19:51   I mean, I'll tell you if I didn't get it.

02:19:54   - You didn't get it.

02:19:55   - Well, I mean, maybe I did

02:19:56   and I just didn't think it was remarkable.

02:19:58   - They're not remarkable.

02:19:59   Like maybe sometimes they're just so obvious,

02:20:00   like yeah, yeah, whatever Star Wars force, whatever.

02:20:02   Like it's not remarkable.

02:20:03   - It doesn't come off, it crosses clever, but anyway.

02:20:08   - Sorry to disappoint you, daddy.

02:20:11   - It's all right, I just have to adjust my expectations.

02:20:14   It doesn't make you a bad person.

02:20:14   - What do you mean you have to adjust?

02:20:16   I thought I firmly placed your expectations of me

02:20:20   so far down the crapper

02:20:21   that they can't even be found anymore.

02:20:22   - But sometimes you surprise me

02:20:24   and then I move you up a few notches

02:20:26   and then you just don't get an obvious Star Wars reference

02:20:28   and then it was like, well,

02:20:29   I don't know what I'm dealing with here.

02:20:30   - Wow, how come I'm the one

02:20:32   who's getting dragged through the mud?

02:20:33   know Marco's still here. I think Marco has seen Star Wars. I have seen Star Wars.

02:20:38   It's been a little while. I have too! But I've seen it a number of times like most

02:20:41   human beings. Yep. I've seen all six of them. When Adam is old enough to start

02:20:47   watching Star Wars, Marco will see it a few more times. Yeah I will say I've

02:20:51   only seen the episodes two and three. I think I've only seen those once each.

02:20:56   Don't worry about those. You're not gonna, you will not be quizzing that.

02:20:59   It's not on the test.

02:21:01   - I figured.

02:21:02   Have you even seen them more than once?

02:21:04   - Yes, unfortunately.

02:21:05   - I'm curious.

02:21:07   You mentioned earlier that you refuse to write the phrase,

02:21:12   "It just works" in the review.

02:21:14   - Yep.

02:21:15   - What is your full list of banned phrases

02:21:18   that you won't use?

02:21:19   - I don't know, but you know what I mean.

02:21:21   You don't want to write cliches.

02:21:22   And if you're writing about Apple

02:21:24   and you're gonna make an "it just works" comment,

02:21:26   whether snarkily or sincerely,

02:21:29   just if you can say it in some other way and try to do it,

02:21:32   you know, like we've read that too many times.

02:21:35   It's all, you know, we write about the same,

02:21:37   if you write about the same company's products

02:21:39   for a long enough time,

02:21:41   you will find yourself inevitably saying exact same things

02:21:44   that not only other people have said,

02:21:45   but that you have said in the past.

02:21:46   It was a constant struggle for me

02:21:47   not to write the exact same sentence I wrote three years ago

02:21:50   and it happens all the time.

02:21:51   I will write something and I will go back,

02:21:53   I'll go back and like, you know, to the 10.6 review

02:21:55   and I'll see like the exact paragraph.

02:21:57   'Cause I'm the same person more or less.

02:21:58   And if you give me the same inputs,

02:21:59   I tend to produce the same outputs.

02:22:01   And I will almost word for word,

02:22:02   write a sentence I wrote three years ago.

02:22:04   And I was like, oh, you know.

02:22:05   And if it's not me, then something someone else wrote.

02:22:07   And so it's a constant struggle to try to say the same

02:22:10   things in a fresh and interesting way that lends new

02:22:13   insight and doesn't just, you know,

02:22:15   it's the you're snapped a grid with Marco type thing.

02:22:17   - Yep.

02:22:18   - It doesn't just snap to grid and like people mentally

02:22:20   scan, it just works and it snaps to a grid point.

02:22:23   And they don't even read the words.

02:22:25   and it's like they're not paying attention anymore.

02:22:26   So I'm always trying to find some better way to say things.

02:22:30   Maybe failing, maybe it's like, I'm not doing it.

02:22:32   It's not a stunt.

02:22:33   It's not like, you know,

02:22:34   it's not like I have this silly list

02:22:35   that it's just like when I'm writing,

02:22:36   I feel like, is that what you want to go with?

02:22:37   Really, you want to go with it?

02:22:38   It just works.

02:22:39   (laughing)

02:22:40   It's just, you know, after whatever,

02:22:43   15 years of doing this, I feel like I don't,

02:22:46   I don't want to have that crutch.

02:22:48   - That's fair.

02:22:49   All right, I'll give you that.

02:22:51   - Titles?

02:22:53   I'm a big fan of Raw Out of Coconuts.

02:22:55   - Yeah, that's barely part of it.

02:22:56   You just like, this is the capital O on Of.

02:22:58   - Because I wrote it.

02:22:59   - Yeah.

02:23:00   - Surrogate Information Phone is also very good.

02:23:03   - That I also like a lot.

02:23:04   - Those were also tangential, I don't know.

02:23:07   - Well, all the good titles are tangential,

02:23:08   but that doesn't mean they're not good.

02:23:10   - Well, sometimes they're unlike whatever the...

02:23:12   We spent a lot of time talking about the Apple event

02:23:15   and Yosemite were the two big topics,

02:23:16   and those were about like neither.

02:23:18   - Well, if we add up all the variations,

02:23:21   the masking skills one is a clear winner.

02:23:23   - I don't like coconuts, but I'm happy with the other two.

02:23:26   Actually, that's true.

02:23:27   I really don't like coconut.

02:23:29   - Neither do I, but I like the title.

02:23:30   - You don't like coconut?

02:23:31   - Coconut's terrible.

02:23:32   - Yep. - No, no way.

02:23:34   - And the worst is when you have

02:23:36   unexpected coconut in things.

02:23:37   - Is it a texture thing?

02:23:39   Like it tastes like paper to you?

02:23:41   - It just doesn't taste good.

02:23:42   - You got toasted coconut on the outside of a donut?

02:23:45   - Ew.

02:23:46   - Coconut shrimp is good.

02:23:47   - You don't like mounds?

02:23:48   - No.

02:23:49   well, it's not a great candy, but no, I like coconut.

02:23:53   No, unexpected coconut, when you bite into a candy or when it's on some kind of cake,

02:23:57   that's the worst. Or if it's in cookies, that's the worst.

02:23:59   I think it's a texture thing. Like, do you like coconut drinks if the texture was removed?

02:24:03   No.

02:24:04   Yeah, I don't know. You're crazy.

02:24:06   I mean, the texture is terrible, but so is the taste. They're both terrible.

02:24:10   Yep. The texture definitely takes some getting used to, but most people, again, most people

02:24:14   born here get used to the same way we get used to peanut butter, which grosses out the

02:24:17   rest of the world.

02:24:18   Most people who are around here get used to coconut, which has a weird texture, I totally

02:24:22   admit, but I like the flavor.

02:24:24   I have it with your Sprite.

02:24:28   Coconut Sprite as a drink.

02:24:29   [BLANK_AUDIO]