86: Moving the Party to the Bar Down the Block


00:00:00   - Yeah, all right, all right, we can avoid it.

00:00:02   - Now you can have your minutes in the sun here.

00:00:05   - Oh, can I?

00:00:07   Do you even know what this is about?

00:00:10   - No. - Neither do I.

00:00:11   - No, neither one of you.

00:00:12   - Remember back in the day when I used to do an app.net

00:00:18   broadcast when we went live?

00:00:20   - Yeah, you don't do that anymore, do you?

00:00:21   - No, I haven't done that in a while.

00:00:22   - I don't even post the show links to app.net anymore.

00:00:25   - Right, well, with that in mind,

00:00:28   Do you wanna ask me how many people were complaining

00:00:31   about me not doing the app.net broadcast anymore?

00:00:34   - You know, actually, it would not surprise me

00:00:37   if there was like one or two people who did

00:00:39   because it seemed like the kind of person

00:00:40   who ever received an app.net broadcast

00:00:43   probably feels entitled to keep receiving

00:00:45   app.net broadcasts.

00:00:46   Is that correct?

00:00:47   - Actually, no, to my recollection,

00:00:49   not a single soul said anything.

00:00:50   - All right, that's also an equally explainable outcome.

00:00:56   - Right?

00:00:57   - Oh, that's too bad.

00:00:58   Hey, now we're all using "ello."

00:01:00   - Oh yeah, the thing I logged into once.

00:01:02   - Yeah, I logged in once, I followed anyone I could find.

00:01:04   - Yeah, define using.

00:01:06   (laughing)

00:01:07   - Fair point.

00:01:08   - We have accounts.

00:01:09   I think I did post something,

00:01:11   I were supposed to reply to someone.

00:01:13   Someone sent me a message and I replied.

00:01:15   But I don't know what's going on on that site at all.

00:01:18   I just wanted my username and now I didn't get it

00:01:19   and I'm sad.

00:01:20   - I got set up pretty well, I got my username.

00:01:24   Couldn't get Marco, of course,

00:01:25   but I got Marco Armentoli, so I got my username.

00:01:27   and I found some people to follow

00:01:30   and I'm like, all right, well, now what?

00:01:32   I've followed some people I wanna follow

00:01:34   and what do I put here?

00:01:37   And you can do the kind of like rich media,

00:01:39   it's kind of like halfway between Twitter and Tumblr.

00:01:42   You can do kind of like a rich media thing or combined thing

00:01:45   and this doesn't seem to be any kind of reasonable

00:01:46   post limit or anything like that.

00:01:47   But it's like, I don't really know what to put there

00:01:52   because I use Twitter, I hang out on Twitter,

00:01:55   people I talk to are on Twitter.

00:01:57   It's the exact same problem I had with app.net

00:01:59   even at the beginning, which was not,

00:02:01   it wasn't that nobody was there,

00:02:03   'cause a lot of people were there,

00:02:04   and LO is the same thing.

00:02:05   Lots of people are on LO officially,

00:02:07   but the question is, when I have a thought

00:02:10   that I want to post, or when I have a question

00:02:12   I want to ask, where do I put it?

00:02:14   If you put it on both, then it's kind of awkward

00:02:17   for people who follow you in both places,

00:02:19   it's kind of annoying.

00:02:20   And if you're only gonna put it on one place,

00:02:22   chances are Twitter is the better place for most purposes.

00:02:26   it doesn't really solve the problem

00:02:28   of how do you split yourself between these two services.

00:02:31   Like if Ello had come out when Twitter was pissing us all off

00:02:35   and App.net came out, it would have had a better chance.

00:02:38   App.net was a decent idea at the right time

00:02:43   for the most part that was not executed that well

00:02:47   and then the motivation for it kind of faded away.

00:02:50   'Cause Twitter is always going to be shifting

00:02:53   in directions that we don't like.

00:02:56   Twitter's moves are gonna be like the kid these days for us.

00:03:00   It's gonna, they're gonna just keep doing things

00:03:02   that push it in a direction,

00:03:04   'cause basically Facebook and Twitter

00:03:06   both extremely envy the other

00:03:09   and in ways that make both products substantially worse.

00:03:14   And so I think Twitter is going to keep adopting

00:03:19   the worst things about Facebook.

00:03:21   But they're gonna do it in a way,

00:03:23   it's gonna be like the boiling the frog thing.

00:03:25   They're gonna do like little things here and there

00:03:27   on the way, it's not gonna be like one massive change

00:03:31   that's gonna make all of us run fleeing.

00:03:33   I think five years from now, what Twitter is

00:03:37   would be nearly unrecognizable to us today.

00:03:40   But it's gonna be done that way over, you know,

00:03:43   in a gradual way, it's gonna be done over that span

00:03:46   so that we slowly won't notice that we're being boiled.

00:03:50   (laughing)

00:03:51   And so there's never going to be this one event

00:03:55   that kicks all of us off or drives us all

00:03:58   to go switch to something else.

00:04:01   To go like, we're all gonna leave at once,

00:04:03   the whole party's moving over to the bar down the block.

00:04:06   Like, there's not gonna be like one event

00:04:09   that pushes us all.

00:04:11   And if you are the bar down the block at that point,

00:04:15   you could benefit hugely from that,

00:04:16   but that probably won't happen.

00:04:19   And chances are we're gonna lose a bunch of people

00:04:21   on the way to other things, you know?

00:04:24   Like when Napster was shut down,

00:04:25   everyone didn't just go to one thing.

00:04:27   There was like five different things.

00:04:28   You know, like this always happens.

00:04:29   Whenever any kind of like community, major social site,

00:04:32   like when something goes away,

00:04:35   the people kind of scatter and fragment

00:04:37   over different places.

00:04:38   So as long as we want to keep talking to the people

00:04:41   that we're talking to on Twitter,

00:04:42   we're gonna be keeping using Twitter for that.

00:04:44   And no other service stands a chance.

00:04:46   - You know how like when you take copyrighted material,

00:04:49   like they call it piracy or whatever,

00:04:51   but it's not really theft in the digital realm

00:04:53   because when you download an item,

00:04:58   the person who gave it to you still has it.

00:05:02   Like it's not displacement, digital bits,

00:05:04   they get copied and everything.

00:05:05   So it's like, it's a different type of paradigm.

00:05:06   Well, in social networking,

00:05:08   the phenomenon of like LO,

00:05:11   usually the analogy of let's all move the party

00:05:13   to the bar down the block.

00:05:15   When anything like LO comes along,

00:05:17   Even though we're not, we have this baseline dissatisfaction

00:05:21   with Twitter that's kind of always simmering there.

00:05:23   We don't all leave Twitter.

00:05:24   What we do is we all go to the bar down the block,

00:05:27   but we also stay in Twitter.

00:05:29   So it's like when you take digital bits or whatever,

00:05:32   the original person still has them.

00:05:33   We're still on Twitter, but we're also,

00:05:35   we all run over to Ella.

00:05:37   And then when we get there and it's kind of like

00:05:38   this empty white room and it's kind of boring

00:05:41   and we try to get her username and then we leave.

00:05:44   But we never left Twitter.

00:05:46   So it's like the digital equivalent of let's go all to the bar.

00:05:48   We all do.

00:05:49   I think every time something new comes up, like, well, it's kind of like Twitter, but

00:05:52   not Twitter.

00:05:53   Someone asked me on Twitter, what is it that is supposed to be appealing about Ella when

00:05:58   I said it's kind of like Twitter, but not Twitter.

00:06:00   And that's the appeal of all these things.

00:06:02   I would love something that's kind of like Twitter, but isn't Twitter because Twitter

00:06:05   pisses me off in ways X, Y, and Z.

00:06:07   And so we all stay on Twitter, but we dupe ourselves and we go over to not D-U-P-E and

00:06:12   We all go over to, or maybe that as well,

00:06:15   go over to LO or to app.net or whatever,

00:06:18   because it looks, if you squint,

00:06:20   it looks kinda like Twitter,

00:06:22   and we all don't like Twitter,

00:06:23   and maybe this'll be the next thing we get there,

00:06:24   and it's like, meh.

00:06:26   I mean, you're right.

00:06:27   If there was a big event that actually kicked us out,

00:06:29   physically speaking, so we couldn't,

00:06:30   we had to leave Twitter,

00:06:31   but even then, even if we got all pissed,

00:06:33   we would all keep our Twitter accounts.

00:06:34   We would keep using it,

00:06:35   and we're going to keep using it

00:06:36   until something else is out there

00:06:39   that makes us want to move to it

00:06:41   Do stuff there instead. I don't think wherever is ever gonna be a time where we leave Twitter and start using something else in one

00:06:47   Fail swoop. Yeah, you know we're always gonna stay on Twitter and

00:06:50   Be there'll be some kind of transition phase

00:06:53   We just never make it over the hump during the transition and app.net we get pretty far there was conversations happening there

00:06:58   There are lots of people that we knew it. Just you know we also still stayed on Twitter

00:07:02   Yeah, and and Ello also has the the problems of like they seem to get

00:07:08   Really popular really quickly before they were quite ready for it not in a scaling way

00:07:12   I mean me I don't know bad challenges there Twitter did too. So well, that's true. But but in the way that

00:07:17   That like they don't have a mobile app. Their web app is just barely functional. Yeah, they don't have any apps

00:07:25   That's one of the reasons I'm not using it at all. Where's the app for my Mac? Where's the app for my iPod?

00:07:30   It's like well, I'm not gonna go to that website

00:07:32   I mean--

00:07:33   Right.

00:07:34   That's like, if you are launching

00:07:36   any kind of social product today and you

00:07:39   don't have at least an iPhone app, you're dead in the water.

00:07:44   That's where people go.

00:07:45   Launching in the web browser might seem like a good idea

00:07:48   to some web nerds, but the fact is

00:07:50   the web browser is no longer the preeminent platform

00:07:53   for this sort of thing.

00:07:54   The iPhone app is.

00:07:55   And the web browser is the worst for it.

00:07:58   If you're going to be anything like Twitter,

00:08:00   Twitter's whole thing is it's a text box that

00:08:02   holds a small amount of text and a button,

00:08:03   and then underneath it a big list of other blurbs of text.

00:08:06   Doing that in a webpage is not optimal.

00:08:10   It's practically designed for mobile.

00:08:13   It is the mobile Facebook.

00:08:16   Get rid of everything, just make one text field in a box,

00:08:18   and you put some words in there, not a lot of them,

00:08:21   and you press a button, and then you scroll

00:08:22   through this big giant table view.

00:08:24   Twitter is made for mobile.

00:08:25   - Yeah, that's true, but you're saying

00:08:28   that you wouldn't want to go to the website,

00:08:30   but don't you use the Gmail web interface

00:08:32   rather than like mail or airmail?

00:08:34   - Yeah, but Gmail is massive.

00:08:36   Emails are not 140 characters.

00:08:38   They're organized in complicated ways.

00:08:40   It's not just a big linear timeline.

00:08:42   So they require actions and filing and replies.

00:08:45   Like the email is not Twitter.

00:08:47   - No, it's not Twitter, but I don't know,

00:08:49   it just struck me odd that you immediately

00:08:52   snubbed the "ello" website.

00:08:55   - And it's also because like you want a dedicated place

00:08:59   to do this thing.

00:09:00   Everything on iOS obviously is dedicated,

00:09:02   takes over the screen or whatever,

00:09:03   but on the Mac, I don't want to dedicate

00:09:05   an entire browser tab to, nevermind that Twitter website

00:09:08   is just not nice these days.

00:09:10   And well, I don't like it anyway.

00:09:12   I know some people do, but--

00:09:13   - It never was nice, I mean, let's be honest.

00:09:15   - It was nicer, like it was, like,

00:09:16   all the things you're talking about Twitter doing

00:09:18   that we don't like, a lot of them manifest in the website

00:09:21   with the crazy lines between posts trying to show

00:09:23   that like, it's just, I just want a big,

00:09:25   linear time-ordered stream, and that's what you get

00:09:28   iOS devices, that's what I get in my little Mac app that I use and everything's good.

00:09:32   Yeah, and Elo, like their business model

00:09:36   their appeal, I think the reason why people are actually

00:09:40   using it is because it's a new thing that's kind of like Twitter

00:09:44   and everyone wants to establish their username there.

00:09:48   Wait, but hold on, is anyone actually using it? Because I'm not trying to like, you know, be funny or anything.

00:09:52   I've seen two or three posts on Elo that have been

00:09:56   linked probably on Twitter, and that's about it.

00:09:58   And I logged into Ello, like we were saying earlier,

00:10:01   once to grab my username and set the bare minimum

00:10:04   of profile information, and I literally

00:10:06   have not logged in since.

00:10:08   - Yeah, I'm the exact same way.

00:10:10   - I left email notifications on,

00:10:11   so just in case some people are trying to contact me there,

00:10:13   I'll get emailed about it, and that happened once,

00:10:15   and I replied, but that's it.

00:10:17   - Yeah, and that's, I think, the best hope

00:10:19   of drawing people in is those notifications

00:10:22   are on by default, but, you know,

00:10:24   And their whole appeal is supposed to be that

00:10:27   they're never gonna have ads, right?

00:10:29   That's what they're saying.

00:10:30   We're never gonna have ads, we're gonna somehow fund

00:10:33   ourself through basically donations and Kickstarter-like

00:10:37   things, something like that, I don't know the details,

00:10:38   but I don't see that working.

00:10:41   - They have their VC funded, they may say whatever they say,

00:10:44   but in reality they're VC funded.

00:10:46   - Right, and the thing is, a company can say

00:10:49   whatever it wants at the beginning.

00:10:50   You can say, and you can mean, I'm not saying

00:10:53   they're planning on lying to us, or that they're planning on changing direction later, I'm

00:10:57   not saying that, the people today can think and say and do whatever they want, but the

00:11:02   fact is, this can always change in the future. At any time in the future, maybe the founders

00:11:09   aren't there anymore, maybe someone else takes over the company. Like, Elo, if it even

00:11:14   started to take off, we would not really be getting anywhere compared to where we are

00:11:19   on Twitter because Twitter is a lot of great things,

00:11:23   but its main downsides for the good of society,

00:11:26   basically, its main downsides are that it's centralized.

00:11:31   And secondarily, it used to have a lot

00:11:34   of big scaling problems, though those are really

00:11:35   mostly a thing of the past now.

00:11:37   Now, if we go to Elo, Elo will have the exact same

00:11:41   scaling challenges if it actually gets enough people

00:11:43   and enough usage to be viable.

00:11:45   They're gonna face all the same scaling things.

00:11:47   we're gonna start again from zero,

00:11:49   start again from like 2005 on LO for scaling, right?

00:11:54   And then at the end, if they actually manage

00:11:57   to have a big mass of people using it,

00:12:00   and it can replace Twitter for us,

00:12:02   we still have one centralized company

00:12:05   controlling this medium.

00:12:06   And Twitter has shown this really is its own medium,

00:12:10   but it's unfortunately a medium tied to its network,

00:12:12   and as we saw with tent.is or whatever,

00:12:17   whatever it's called, didn't they rename it,

00:12:18   whatever that is.

00:12:19   - Cupcake.

00:12:20   - Oh, is that it?

00:12:21   Okay.

00:12:22   - I think it's cupcake.io, maybe.

00:12:23   - Whatever that is or was,

00:12:26   decentralizing this is hard, it's a hard problem.

00:12:29   But, Elo is not solving that problem, neither was App.net.

00:12:32   These companies, they're starting just like a new Twitter.

00:12:36   And it's going to have, in the best case scenario,

00:12:39   if they succeed and actually make these things,

00:12:42   it's going to go through all the same challenges

00:12:44   Twitter has gone through with scaling

00:12:45   and growing the community and moderation or lack thereof

00:12:49   and spam and abuse, those are all gonna hit it.

00:12:53   And then at the end, we're still gonna have this one

00:12:56   centralized company that controls all of this.

00:12:58   And what if that company, you know,

00:13:01   Elo seems like they're nice and customer friendly now,

00:13:04   but so did Twitter when they started.

00:13:07   And that was a long time ago.

00:13:09   Most of those people have moved on

00:13:11   and it's a very different company with very different needs

00:13:13   and different stakeholders now,

00:13:16   and a different controlling party, really.

00:13:18   And so that can happen to any company like this.

00:13:21   What we need to be designing is an alternative

00:13:24   that can satisfy the roles that Twitter serves for us,

00:13:29   but in a way that is a decentralized protocol, a standard.

00:13:33   It is not one central server that does all this work

00:13:36   that is owned by a private company.

00:13:38   It is a protocol like email or DNS.

00:13:40   Like that's what we need.

00:13:42   whether it's RSS-based, I don't really care

00:13:44   about the implementation details.

00:13:46   Dave Weiner can have his RSS world if he wants it,

00:13:48   that's fine.

00:13:50   I don't care how it works,

00:13:51   but that's the kind of thing we need.

00:13:54   And I know people are saying,

00:13:56   'cause people in the chat are telling me,

00:13:57   I know that's what tent.io/cupcake was or is,

00:14:01   it didn't take off.

00:14:03   And maybe it's because it launched at the same time

00:14:05   as app.net and so it was too competitive, I don't know.

00:14:08   And there are a lot of problems,

00:14:10   There's a lot of challenges in developing that sort of thing

00:14:13   especially with things like identity and discoverability

00:14:15   of other people on the network.

00:14:17   But that is the kind of solution we need

00:14:21   to the Twitter being kind of a problem.

00:14:24   It's not to build another company up to this point.

00:14:29   It's to eliminate the need for these companies

00:14:32   for this medium.

00:14:33   - I just don't see how we're gonna get there.

00:14:36   And I say that because Twitter's really good at grabbing all walks of life.

00:14:43   It started with the super nerds and then it's ending, it's ended, it's carrying on through

00:14:50   superstars.

00:14:52   And I'm not trying to say that popular musicians or popular actors or whatever are not intelligent,

00:14:59   but they value very different things than the nerds do.

00:15:01   And it's taken a series of very specific decisions by Twitter the company in order to make Twitter

00:15:08   the product to be something that appeals kind of to everyone.

00:15:12   And yes, you know, the nerds like me and you, we all grumble about things that they do,

00:15:16   but in the end of the day, as you said before, this is the popular bar.

00:15:19   And what's weird about Twitter is it's a very, I can't think of a better word than democratic

00:15:25   or unifying perhaps.

00:15:26   Everyone is kind of sort of on the same page on Twitter.

00:15:29   yeah, I may have more or less followers than other people,

00:15:32   like I have a lot less followers than you two, for example,

00:15:35   but really anyone can pretty much talk to anyone else.

00:15:38   And that's not something you see in a bar.

00:15:41   It's not something you see in regular society.

00:15:42   And to have a regular shmo deal with something

00:15:46   that's decentralized,

00:15:48   that doesn't have a real easy onboarding experience,

00:15:51   that isn't something like the web

00:15:54   that is so deeply rooted in the internet

00:15:58   that it's gotten past the fact

00:16:01   that it's kind of a weird onboarding

00:16:03   and URLs are funny and what does .com really mean, et cetera.

00:16:06   I just don't see how a dentist,

00:16:08   cupcake, whatever we're calling it,

00:16:10   I don't see how it could get there.

00:16:11   - Well, look at email.

00:16:13   I think email is a great example

00:16:15   of how this kind of thing could happen

00:16:17   and the likely result.

00:16:19   So email is exactly what we're talking about.

00:16:21   It is a decentralized social network

00:16:24   that has, and it has discoverability challenges,

00:16:27   It has problems with spam and abuse,

00:16:30   but we've managed to make it all work.

00:16:32   It is like, we don't have this panacea of geekdom

00:16:36   where everybody has their own domain name

00:16:38   and everyone's, you know,

00:16:39   everyone owns their digital identity.

00:16:41   No, we have a lot of people like that,

00:16:43   but then we also have like Gmail and Yahoo Mail and MSN Mail,

00:16:47   these like massive conglomerates

00:16:48   that let anybody create an email account,

00:16:50   and a lot of people are fine just doing that.

00:16:52   And that is very centralized within that service,

00:16:55   but it still interoperates with everything else,

00:16:57   and none of the services are ever gonna get powerful enough

00:17:00   to control the medium, I hope, Google.

00:17:02   But it doesn't have to be like total decentralized,

00:17:06   like, you know, Bitcoin tour kind of style

00:17:08   of like every nerd has their own thing,

00:17:10   or rather every nerd is required to have their own thing

00:17:13   and every user is required to be a nerd.

00:17:14   It doesn't have to be that way.

00:17:16   It can be more like the way email does work,

00:17:18   which is the nerds can get their own identities

00:17:20   and their own domains if they want them,

00:17:22   and everyone else can go to some central provider.

00:17:24   This is really, isn't this exactly what Tent did?

00:17:27   everyone else can go to a couple of the big,

00:17:29   popular providers and get some kind of free identity

00:17:31   and not worry about it.

00:17:32   - Yeah, that's what Tent did,

00:17:34   but thinking of Casey's problem of how,

00:17:36   how do you get something like Tent,

00:17:37   which has existed for a long time,

00:17:39   or cupcake.io, which is the actual domain name,

00:17:41   how do you get that to catch on?

00:17:42   I think the best shot in the current environment

00:17:45   is for something, I don't know the technical details

00:17:48   of cupcake.io or whatever, but for something like that

00:17:52   to not actually be the product.

00:17:53   So if you can imagine, for instance,

00:17:55   if Bitcoin had caught on better

00:17:56   because it had a better user interface or whatever.

00:17:59   Some kind of sort of peer-to-peer network consensus-based

00:18:04   protocol for doing something that ends up being

00:18:07   very valuable to a lot of people,

00:18:11   like whether it's, you know,

00:18:12   other than people trying to launder money, right?

00:18:14   So I'm picking monetary things

00:18:15   just because Bitcoin is an obvious example,

00:18:17   but like the purpose of the system was like,

00:18:20   well, this is kind of a weird thing,

00:18:21   but actually people totally use it as a way

00:18:24   to transfer money from each other

00:18:25   without a central mediating authority

00:18:27   with consensus-based thing or whatever.

00:18:29   I mean, obviously we know how Bitcoin has ended up

00:18:31   and all the weirdness into her name.

00:18:33   But anyway, something like that,

00:18:34   where someone builds an underlying infrastructure for,

00:18:38   'cause that's what you need for this.

00:18:39   If you don't have a central server,

00:18:40   you need some way for it to be more or less peer-to-peer,

00:18:43   but for there to be consensus of everybody

00:18:45   about what is the nature of the timeline

00:18:47   and how do we agree that this is the timeline

00:18:50   and that it hasn't been poisoned with fake things.

00:18:53   And you really said,

00:18:54   Because Twitter serves that role in a centralized thing.

00:18:56   Twitter determines what is and isn't a tweet.

00:18:58   They give permalinks for all the things,

00:18:59   all this other stuff.

00:19:00   It's not like email where you can be storing forward

00:19:02   and you have your own private repositories

00:19:03   and you can delete them, it'll be gone.

00:19:05   Every email doesn't have a URL.

00:19:06   So you need some kind of centralized way

00:19:09   to figure out where the,

00:19:11   we're just gonna call it tweets,

00:19:12   where the tweets are, what is the URL of a tweet,

00:19:14   can I prove this tweet was really made,

00:19:16   verified checkmarks, all that stuff.

00:19:18   But you don't wanna have a central authority,

00:19:20   so that's kind of what Bitcoin does

00:19:22   with its weird hash-based consensus thing,

00:19:24   but it's peer-to-peer, but a large mesh network

00:19:28   where no one noticed the big,

00:19:29   and a tent is kinda like that.

00:19:30   A tent is more federated where it's islands,

00:19:32   and there could be very large islands,

00:19:33   the equivalent of Hotmail and Gmail or whatever.

00:19:36   But anyway, a system like that,

00:19:38   but not built for anything having to do with Twitter,

00:19:40   merely built for some other thing

00:19:42   that has a readily explainable, highly lucrative reason

00:19:46   for being that causes it to come into very common use

00:19:51   and to be built out everywhere,

00:19:52   and for every operating system to have it built in,

00:19:54   and to have a client on every platform,

00:19:57   and then it all comes tumbling down,

00:20:00   kind of like Bitcoin may, right?

00:20:02   But during the interim,

00:20:03   when that was getting distributed everywhere,

00:20:05   because lots of people were making money using this network,

00:20:07   the infrastructure that's made for that network,

00:20:10   people said, "Hey, you know what else we can do

00:20:11   on this network?

00:20:12   We can send you to our little messages

00:20:13   to talk about whatever it is we're doing,

00:20:14   transferring the money or whatever other,

00:20:16   even if it's a gaming thing, massively online,

00:20:19   peer-to-peer, multiplayer gaming,

00:20:21   whatever the infrastructure is,

00:20:22   at some point they'll say,

00:20:23   "You know, you could use the same infrastructure

00:20:25   to send tiny little messages to each other."

00:20:28   Kind of like SMS piggybacked

00:20:29   on the voice network for cell phones.

00:20:31   And that is the only way

00:20:33   we're gonna get a Twitter-like thing, I think,

00:20:35   because it has to be sort of snuck in

00:20:38   behind some other thing that pays for

00:20:42   and is the tractor to pull this massive,

00:20:43   really complicated infrastructure

00:20:45   to spread it across all devices and the entire network.

00:20:47   and then someone shoving little messages there

00:20:50   and then have the other thing probably implode or whatever.

00:20:52   And then what you're left with is like,

00:20:53   oh, well now we have all these clients

00:20:55   and all these servers and all this stuff

00:20:57   for this peer-to-peer network

00:21:00   with no centralized authority

00:21:01   to authentically exchange small messages with each other

00:21:04   and we'll just use that.

00:21:05   I mean, maybe, I was trying to think of like iMessage

00:21:08   but that's centralized as well.

00:21:09   But anyway, that I think is the best case scenario,

00:21:13   the most likely scenario,

00:21:14   because I just don't see a way like Casey

00:21:15   where something whose origin is in,

00:21:18   I wanna be a Twitter-like thing, but I'm distributed,

00:21:21   I don't see how that ever gets to critical mass

00:21:22   without being pulled behind something

00:21:24   as sort of camouflage for it.

00:21:27   - Complicating this problem,

00:21:28   like the way social sites grow is kind of random.

00:21:32   It's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like fashion.

00:21:35   It's like, you know, what's gonna succeed and fail?

00:21:37   You can increase your chances or decrease your chances

00:21:39   with choices you make, but ultimately,

00:21:42   it's kind of random what ends up being picked up

00:21:45   and taking off and it has a lot to do with things like,

00:21:48   like, you know, who goes there, exactly when it comes,

00:21:51   like when it comes around, when someone hears about it.

00:21:53   Like, we're all talking about tent like it's already dead.

00:21:56   We don't even know because at the moment

00:21:57   the tent was launched, we looked at it

00:22:00   and it didn't solve our problems at that moment,

00:22:02   so we moved on.

00:22:03   - No, I just logged in and my last message

00:22:05   is from five months ago.

00:22:06   (laughing)

00:22:08   - I think I squatted on either lists or KC lists on tent

00:22:12   And just like, hello, never looked back.

00:22:16   What I did want to ask you guys, and this is a genuine

00:22:19   question, have there been any sort of services or protocols

00:22:25   like email, like RSS, that have arisen significantly

00:22:30   after, say, the late '90s when the web and the internet, as

00:22:35   we know it today, kind of took off?

00:22:36   I'm thinking like BitTorrent is a protocol that's taken off

00:22:40   to a degree, but it's still a little bit on the fiddly side.

00:22:44   But there's been no Twitter, there's Facebook, I guess,

00:22:47   but that's still centralized.

00:22:48   Is there anything-

00:22:49   - BitTorrent and Bitcoin combined kind of,

00:22:52   'cause BitTorrent, its tractor was piracy, right?

00:22:55   That's the thing, like, no one wants to deal

00:22:56   with this stuff, but if it means you can get free stuff,

00:22:59   then, you know, so that spread,

00:23:00   you can get a BitTorrent client for everything, right?

00:23:02   - Although they have the tracker problem,

00:23:04   which like, it's like kind of centralized.

00:23:06   - Exactly, so, but it's not distributed.

00:23:07   Bitcoin, the tractor there was like laundering money

00:23:10   or buying drugs or whatever, like a way to exchange money

00:23:15   between parties who don't trust each other, right?

00:23:17   And, you know, speculative, you know,

00:23:20   trying to get rich quick, but anyway,

00:23:22   like there was a tractor behind Bitcoin as well.

00:23:26   And that is like BitTorrent

00:23:28   in that it had a tractor to pull it.

00:23:29   And also what I was talking about

00:23:31   where there's no central authority

00:23:33   or does have the consensus problems of like,

00:23:34   if anyone gets more than 51%,

00:23:36   more than half of the computing power,

00:23:38   you could in theory poison the blockchain

00:23:39   also that you know go listen to that big long Glen Fleischmann what was it New Disruptors I think?

00:23:44   I think it was a talk show. Maybe it was a talk show but yeah trying to explain anyway Bitcoin

00:23:48   is not it's it's a little bit to wrap your head around but for the most part like it's not a great

00:23:52   system for what I was describing but it's it's like BitTorrent plus this other thing and I feel like

00:23:56   there's something else out there if it's not piracy or buying drugs or laundering money

00:24:02   some maybe it's porn maybe it's games right some other tractor is going to pull whatever the next

00:24:08   iteration of this is because I don't think either one of those is sufficient to be an infrastructure

00:24:13   for a centralized twitter like thing but it proves that if you have a big enough tractor you can make

00:24:17   the craziest weirdest most unfriendly protocols and stuff spread everywhere I mean they're making

00:24:22   dedicated hardware for for bitcoin for right now you just need a tractor that is not like twitter

00:24:27   and then you need that to be successful long enough for someone to say hey we can put messages

00:24:30   and infrastructure and then you're off to the races because someone else has done the hard work

00:24:34   for you. Our first sponsor this week is our friends at Squarespace. Now I

00:24:38   actually went to Squarespace's press event today where they announced the

00:24:43   new Squarespace 7 and showed it off a bit. It's actually about to enter beta. I

00:24:46   think tonight they started rolling it out to certain users. You'll have the

00:24:50   option to like check a box and turn it on and I gotta say Squarespace is doing

00:24:55   some cool stuff. Really the things they're doing you think shouldn't be

00:24:59   possible in web browsers and they managed to do it.

00:25:02   And I know just enough about this stuff to know how hard it is and they're doing some

00:25:08   crazy good stuff.

00:25:09   Anyway, Squarespace is the all-in-one platform that makes it fast and easy to create your

00:25:14   own professional website portfolio and online store.

00:25:17   For a free trial and 10% off, visit squarespace.com and enter offer code ATP at checkout.

00:25:22   A Better Web starts with your website.

00:25:25   Squarespace is simple and easy.

00:25:27   They have beautiful designs for you to start with.

00:25:29   All of their stuff is mobile and responsive

00:25:31   right from the start.

00:25:32   You can pick, they're adding a bunch more templates now

00:25:35   as part of this update.

00:25:36   I'm not sure what else, there's like some things

00:25:39   are kind of embargoed I think, but they have a video of it.

00:25:42   You can go, I think it's squarespace.com/theword7,

00:25:45   S-E-V-E-N.

00:25:46   Anyway, Squarespace, it's awesome.

00:25:49   I really can't say enough good stuff about this.

00:25:51   Their editor, everything is drag and drop

00:25:54   and it's all WYSIWYG and it's all GUI stuff,

00:25:56   But you can also get in there if you want.

00:25:58   You can inject JavaScript, you can inject HTML,

00:26:00   you have full control.

00:26:01   Our site's hosted on Squarespace,

00:26:03   I've done a number of sites on Squarespace,

00:26:04   my wife's site is on Squarespace.

00:26:06   It's really, there's a lot of reasons for this.

00:26:09   It's a very, very solid platform.

00:26:12   You don't have to worry about things like scaling

00:26:13   or things going down.

00:26:15   Squarespace is all this giant platform

00:26:17   with CDNs and everything, everything's optimized,

00:26:19   they take care of SEO for you.

00:26:21   It is incredible, all the stuff you get.

00:26:23   They have commerce, you can build a store,

00:26:25   You can sell things, you can have a blog,

00:26:27   you can have a portfolio.

00:26:29   So much stuff is built into Squarespace

00:26:32   and you can do it all with no effort whatsoever.

00:26:34   It's really cool.

00:26:35   And one thing I like about it too,

00:26:37   you can see as they update the themes

00:26:40   and move your sites forward and everything,

00:26:43   I like when someone else takes care of fashion for me

00:26:47   because I'm not a fashionable person.

00:26:50   And Squarespace, you can keep your site

00:26:53   looking amazingly trendy and up to date,

00:26:55   if you just pick a new theme every year or two.

00:26:58   'Cause they're always adding all these new themes

00:27:01   that just look awesome.

00:27:02   You can look at it and be like,

00:27:02   "Wow, that is exactly what is in fashion right now."

00:27:06   And they're amazing at knowing how to bring that

00:27:10   to the masses, it's really quite good.

00:27:12   So anyway, plans start at just $8 a month.

00:27:14   This includes a free domain name,

00:27:16   we're trying to for a whole year up front.

00:27:17   They also have 24/7 live chat and email support

00:27:21   located all over the world.

00:27:23   Again, can't say enough good about Squarespace.

00:27:25   You can start a free trial today

00:27:26   with no credit card required.

00:27:28   Start building your website.

00:27:30   When you do decide to sign up for Squarespace,

00:27:32   make sure to use the offer code ATP

00:27:34   to get 10% off your first purchase

00:27:36   and to show your support for our show.

00:27:38   Thank you very much to Squarespace for sponsoring us

00:27:40   and so many other great podcasts.

00:27:42   Once again, Squarespace,

00:27:43   a better web starts with your website.

00:27:45   I'm reading the sponsor reads tonight on Parkschmidt paper.

00:27:50   Our printer ran out of regular paper earlier this afternoon.

00:27:53   - Was that after it ran out of paper when I was there?

00:27:56   - Yeah, when you were here, I put in the last clump

00:27:59   of regular paper I could find.

00:28:01   Now that's gone too.

00:28:02   - That's what they call paper, it comes in clumps.

00:28:04   - Yeah, exactly.

00:28:05   My wife and I came to realize that this evening

00:28:08   when I was discussing our lack of paper,

00:28:10   that we've been saving all of this,

00:28:11   we have resume paper and parchment paper

00:28:15   from back when these things mattered.

00:28:17   And it's the cheesiest stuff.

00:28:19   It's like, imagine if you had a resume,

00:28:21   if you have resume paper,

00:28:22   first of all, can you imagine when in the rest of your life

00:28:26   you will ever be applying for a job

00:28:30   where a paper resume would even be accepted?

00:28:32   Secondly, if you actually found one

00:28:35   and applied for it with a paper resume,

00:28:37   imagine how it would look if you gave this blue paper,

00:28:41   that's all like this blue parchmenty paper

00:28:43   that has this big Southworth watermark

00:28:45   across the middle of it.

00:28:46   Like, this is the cheesiest crap possible.

00:28:49   - That would be a big upgrade from what actually happens,

00:28:52   which you may not have experienced.

00:28:53   Here's what actually happens in the modern job age.

00:28:56   So if you're lucky, you apply to a job directly

00:28:59   through some crazy website.

00:29:00   If you're unlucky, you end up going through a recruiter.

00:29:02   Either way, no matter how you format your resume,

00:29:05   they will demand it be formatted in some other way,

00:29:07   including possibly pasting blocks of text

00:29:09   into multiple text areas on a webpage.

00:29:12   And that will go through seven different systems

00:29:13   so that by the time you sit down in front of someone,

00:29:15   what they will have done is printed from their web browser

00:29:19   whatever interface they see your resume in

00:29:21   and it will just come out as an unholy mess

00:29:23   of badly wrapped, ugly formatted, ugly,

00:29:27   like it will just look like your resume

00:29:29   had been put through a blender.

00:29:30   And that is what they have in their hand in front of them

00:29:33   when they're looking over quote unquote your resume.

00:29:35   It bears no resemblance whatsoever

00:29:36   to whatever your resume began as.

00:29:38   So actually it would be a huge upgrade

00:29:40   for them to have a piece of paper in their hand

00:29:43   that I printed with my resume formatted

00:29:45   the way I like it, but that's not the way it happens.

00:29:47   - Yeah, exactly, yeah.

00:29:48   When I was last applying for jobs, that had already started

00:29:51   and I made this awesomely formatted PDF resume

00:29:55   and everybody wanted either Word or a plain text

00:29:58   paced out of all the keywords.

00:30:00   - Word is an improvement, 'cause at least they can print

00:30:01   the Word document.

00:30:02   The worst is when it goes through a recruiter system

00:30:04   and an HR system then comes back out as a printed web.

00:30:06   But you can tell with the whole, it used to be worse

00:30:09   when the web browsers would put these insane footers

00:30:11   and headers, I don't know, they still do,

00:30:13   At least they use tiny text now, but just, yeah, it's terrible.

00:30:15   I guess that maybe we're just on our way passing through and eventually it'll just be like

00:30:18   my resume's on the web, pull it up on your iPad.

00:30:21   Wow.

00:30:22   So you want to do some follow-up?

00:30:24   Let's do it.

00:30:26   So we had some very interesting emails from Hendrik, who is @pocketpixels on Twitter.

00:30:34   I don't think I'm the most qualified of the three of us to talk about this, but John,

00:30:38   I think you were lamenting it the most.

00:30:40   Would you like to cover this particular piece of follow-up?

00:30:42   So last week we were discussing a piece of information posted to Twitter as an image of text

00:30:50   with no provenance that I could determine and it was discussed as a hypothetical.

00:30:57   If this is true, it would be gross. It turns out that it is not true. What we were talking about was

00:31:02   when viewing 1080p video on an iPhone, what is it, the 6 Plus, on the 6 Plus that actually has a

00:31:10   precisely 1080p pixel screen 1920 by 1080

00:31:14   Does it does the iPhone 6 plus

00:31:18   Blow the movie up to the off-screen 3x eyes and then shrink it back down to 1080 or does it just show it directly at

00:31:25   native 1080

00:31:26   and

00:31:28   That's what the the image of text said that it does that scaling and that was crazy because it's like you've got this you've got

00:31:33   The content you've got the screen there actually pixel for pixel perfect map for each other

00:31:38   Why would you ever pass through any scaling and shrinking process all you're doing is destroying information?

00:31:42   And we went back and forth to discussing that

00:31:44   None of us knew what actually went on what turns out is that they do do the crazy hard thing which we were discussing about

00:31:52   Changing resolutions or changing the native output, or I don't know what how you want to describe it

00:31:57   But the bottom line is that if you show 1080p content

00:32:00   Or if you just make a view of any kind you have the power as a developer on an iPhone 6 plus

00:32:06   To get exactly one to one pixel accurate rendering of whatever it is you want whether it's an OpenGL view or a video thing or

00:32:12   Even even actually I think you can do with just the UI could view I think it has to be OpenGL

00:32:16   I think I didn't look at the if was that native scale thing was that only in GLK view I

00:32:22   Don't have time to look at that

00:32:23   But anyway, this this is we will provide a link for this in the show notes

00:32:26   But it is on Apple's dev forum

00:32:28   So you only be able to follow the link if you have a developer account

00:32:31   But it was someone asking similar question like hey, I've got some content. It's perfect for 1080

00:32:35   I want to get it to be rendered exactly can I do that and they went back and forth the answer as you can and

00:32:40   So Hendrick did a bunch of experiments to see before

00:32:43   Finding these API's everything to show this and what he did was he played 1080p content

00:32:50   And it's very difficult to tell by looking at like we said it's gonna be very difficult tell with the naked eye whether it's scaling

00:32:56   It or not, but he played like one of those test pattern images with very fine lines with they have one pixel lines

00:33:02   Which is why it works.

00:33:03   So you can say is this how it's supposed to look?

00:33:05   Is that an MPEG artifact or whatever?

00:33:07   But the easy way you could tell is he would tap to show the player controls

00:33:11   Which are like, you know, UIKit views and when the UIKit views come on top of the image

00:33:15   Parts that are not covered by the UIKit views change appearance

00:33:19   So they get blurrier or you know

00:33:21   They look different and when those things go away then it goes back to what we assume is native one-to-one mode

00:33:26   So he posted a video of this

00:33:28   You could try it yourself with this Vimeo video, which is the 1080p test image or whatever

00:33:33   but anyway, this that was like the hypothetical practical proof and then the

00:33:37   More technical proof is in that Dev forums thread where you can see people from Apple saying yes

00:33:43   If you want a view that's one to one pixel accurate, you can get it. Here's how you get it

00:33:47   Here's the API as you can use so I

00:33:49   Would assume that in all cases where Apple can

00:33:52   Get that one-to-one like for example playing video without any controls over late on it

00:33:56   that they do, but it's interesting that they're able to

00:33:58   not only switch, but switch sort of seamlessly

00:34:00   when the UI appears and disappears.

00:34:02   Like apparently they're switching all the time,

00:34:04   not just from app to app,

00:34:05   but within a single app when elements appear.

00:34:07   So it seems like Apple has the various different

00:34:11   scaling modes for different views and alignment

00:34:15   with the hardware down to a science here

00:34:18   where they're able to switch at every opportunity

00:34:22   to do whatever is the most efficient

00:34:24   whatever is the best possible choice for the screen.

00:34:27   Yeah, hang on before there is actually a cricket in my office.

00:34:31   I got to go take care of that because you can hear it.

00:34:34   So where's Hopps when you need him? Come on.

00:34:36   He's lying on the rug asleep.

00:34:38   He's totally ignoring this cricket.

00:34:39   For what it's worth, I did find the article that the block O text came from.

00:34:45   Actually, I think somebody linked it to me.

00:34:47   I don't think I found it.

00:34:47   But anyways, it's the register.co.uk.

00:34:50   Actually, I'll just put it in the chat room.

00:34:52   It was in the show notes for last episode.

00:34:53   Well, if I don't see it, that origin is not reassuring.

00:34:57   Well, and the best part is the title

00:34:59   of this article on the register.co.uk

00:35:02   is Apple iPhone 6 Plus.

00:35:04   Gorgeous fat Pixel Destiny-- Density, excuse me.

00:35:08   But it's wasted.

00:35:10   Yeah, so whoever posted that or the registered people

00:35:14   were confused by the fact that it doesn't matter.

00:35:16   Screenshots always are taken in the high resolution,

00:35:18   even when you can prove to yourself,

00:35:20   either with your own code or with your own sample videos,

00:35:22   that it really is showing native one to one 1080 without any scaling up or down.

00:35:27   If you take a screenshot of that, it still ends up larger.

00:35:30   Like the screenshotting mechanism blows it up.

00:35:32   I can't find it. Nice.

00:35:34   So going back to that video can give me giving me a clean edit point here.

00:35:37   Did you say anything that we need to keep?

00:35:40   We found Casey.

00:35:42   Someone sent Casey a link to the video that that screen there is text was

00:35:47   so much for clean edit point.

00:35:51   This dog is supposed to eat these crickets.

00:35:53   Oh, OK.

00:35:56   The problem is no longer existing.

00:35:59   Murderer.

00:35:59   AF Waller, you know what I meant.

00:36:01   It's the same thing if they're taken in native resolution, but saved and higher.

00:36:04   The point is the file on disk is ends up at high res.

00:36:06   You want to go into arguments about what stage does it become high res?

00:36:11   Is it or is it not a living soul?

00:36:15   When is it? When is it a life job?

00:36:17   I don't understand the distinction you would be drawing there.

00:36:20   They're taken and made at rest, but say, at what point is it taken but not saved?

00:36:25   Are we discussing the memory buffers now?

00:36:27   Now we have to argue about whether the—well, technically, it's not really saved.

00:36:31   Oh my god.

00:36:33   See, and if people ever wonder why we sometimes leave, like, these somewhat flippant responses

00:36:40   to pedantic points and questions, this is why.

00:36:44   Because all we do is get people being completely pedantic to us.

00:36:47   Uh, F Waller said he was trolling me, so congratulations, you successfully trolled.

00:36:51   [laughs]

00:36:53   Oh man, this show is such a train wreck, I love it.

00:36:56   Is your cricket dead now?

00:36:58   I don't want to talk about the cricket.

00:37:00   [laughs]

00:37:01   So what, did it go badly? Mistakes were made?

00:37:03   [laughs]

00:37:05   Well, I did my usual move of just dropping something heavy on it and just leaving it there.

00:37:10   And I'll deal with it later.

00:37:11   [laughs]

00:37:14   That is

00:37:16   Truly a new low of procrastination. What's even worse is what is that I what I dropped on it was a

00:37:22   iPad 2 in a in one of those like bookcases

00:37:25   Because that was like the nearest thing that was big enough and flat enough to do what I wanted to do and gosh darn it

00:37:32   people like me

00:37:34   So Tiff I hope you didn't if you're listening I hope you didn't need your old iPad 2 case anymore

00:37:39   Because it's going to be sacrificed forever

00:37:43   It should it should be cleanable easily. Yeah, I hope she makes you clean the guts off of it

00:37:48   But and I have found a use for an iPad 2

00:37:50   I'm not even drinking and this is the best. Oh man. All right

00:37:57   So do we want to actually try to come back to this f you are we just gonna give up on this one?

00:38:00   No, so I actually I actually put the test video on my six plus to see how you know, how noticeable is this?

00:38:08   You know in the last episode almost everything I said was wrong

00:38:11   in the last episode. I had said both, "you won't notice the quality difference" and

00:38:18   there's no way Apple went through the trouble of making this work because who cares, it

00:38:22   doesn't matter, they probably just double scale it. And so it turns out they did go

00:38:26   through the trouble to make this work, they did care, and on the test video, showing a

00:38:31   test pattern, the quality difference is noticeable. And not, you know, I don't think it would

00:38:37   think it would be noticeable in regular video watching. I don't think anybody would ever

00:38:42   notice but if you watch the test video, you know, when it's full screen you see it unscaled

00:38:49   and then if you tap the screen to show the bars you see it get scaled and everything

00:38:53   kind of, well the lines, the way it alternates one pixel black, one pixel white in these

00:39:00   lines so that way you can see if it gets blurred at all because it just turns gray. It's very

00:39:06   clear, like the switch is obvious. So it's interesting, but

00:39:10   again, I still don't think it's worth the effort to just do it for this

00:39:14   I think the way they did it was clearly for OpenGL

00:39:18   that makes more sense. Like they can bypass the scaler for OpenGL

00:39:22   to have direct access to the pixels, that makes a lot of sense. I totally understand

00:39:26   why that is there, and I just didn't think of that as a potential reason

00:39:30   why else this would have to exist when I was saying this wouldn't be worth it. Because I still

00:39:34   maintain that while you can see the difference in the test

00:39:36   video, I don't think it matters for video playback.

00:39:39   And the interesting thing is, as pointed out by Hendrik,

00:39:41   which I assume he confirmed with experimentation,

00:39:43   if you put an opaque UIKit view on top, it does not scale.

00:39:47   Like, it knows it only needs to do it

00:39:49   if it needs to composite it.

00:39:50   So like I said, they're taking every opportunity to say,

00:39:52   do we really have to go up and then down again?

00:39:55   And if every single view on top of your OpenGL view is opaque,

00:39:59   the answer is no, you don't.

00:40:00   I can still go direct to screen.

00:40:02   So it's going direct to screen with the UI.

00:40:04   I mean, I suppose I would wonder,

00:40:06   I guess even if you had like a 3X image

00:40:09   as part of your UI, right,

00:40:10   it would scale that image in the off-screen

00:40:13   and then put that and composite it together,

00:40:15   or not composite it together,

00:40:16   just split it together because it's completely opaque.

00:40:19   So even though you had a 3X resource,

00:40:21   it would be displayed at native,

00:40:23   a scaled native down version of itself.

00:40:26   So I think they did the best you could expect

00:40:30   with the hardware that they had on hand.

00:40:32   And there was another little piece of information

00:40:35   added about this, I forget if it was the same person,

00:40:39   it was Hendrik or somebody else,

00:40:40   but they're talking about why would you ever,

00:40:43   why did you wanna take video

00:40:45   and then there was a perfectly native fit for the screen

00:40:47   and scale it up and scale it back down, that's crazy.

00:40:49   And this bit of information is offered

00:40:52   for a somewhat related scenario, but not quite,

00:40:55   in the realm of digital video,

00:40:57   where if you shoot video in a certain resolution,

00:41:02   and then you, the question is why would you ever scale

00:41:05   that video up to be a much higher resolution

00:41:08   for editing purposes, only to scale it back down later

00:41:12   for the final product, or not scale it back down?

00:41:14   Like why would you ever want to do that?

00:41:16   Or scale it back down not to the original size

00:41:18   but slightly smaller size?

00:41:19   And the answer was that, and this forum post

00:41:22   that we'll put in the show anyway,

00:41:23   was that when you scale something up,

00:41:26   you're making it like blurrier and you're stretching it out

00:41:28   and you're doing all that stuff.

00:41:29   But you're essentially adding information.

00:41:32   Now it's interpolated information

00:41:33   based on the information that was there.

00:41:34   You're synthesizing information,

00:41:36   that's how the scaling works.

00:41:38   But by synthesizing that additional information,

00:41:40   it does actually add information for the image.

00:41:42   Fake information, made up information, guesses,

00:41:45   but that information is added.

00:41:46   So when you scale it back down,

00:41:48   if you don't scale it all the way back down,

00:41:49   what you get in the end is an image

00:41:51   with more visible detail than the one you started with

00:41:54   because it made up the details.

00:41:55   and made up when it interpolated them.

00:41:56   So if you take a 2K image, scale it up to 4K,

00:41:59   and then, well, that's, you know,

00:42:00   take a 2K image, scale it up to 8K,

00:42:02   and then back down to 4K, it will look better

00:42:04   than if you just took the 2K image and scale it up to 4K,

00:42:06   because you added all that information,

00:42:08   and then you shoved it, and then you made it,

00:42:10   you know, you shrunk it back down.

00:42:12   And that was the argument anyway.

00:42:14   I don't know anything about film editing.

00:42:14   That's the argument in this film editing forum,

00:42:16   and you can read about it.

00:42:18   But that's an interesting point.

00:42:19   I don't think it applies to UIs,

00:42:20   which are not photographic images,

00:42:22   but for video, I can understand how you might say,

00:42:25   well, fake information made up by, you know,

00:42:29   bicubic interpolation is better

00:42:31   than not having the information at all

00:42:32   because it will leave you with a more detailed image.

00:42:35   - Our second sponsor this week is,

00:42:38   I think they're new to our show,

00:42:39   but anyway, they're not new to us.

00:42:41   It's Studio Neat.

00:42:43   So you've probably heard of Studio Neat

00:42:45   or at least one of their products.

00:42:47   They've made a couple of things that I really enjoyed.

00:42:49   So they started out with the Glyph, G-L-I-F.

00:42:53   They started out as a Kickstarter project, I believe.

00:42:55   Right, that was Kickstarter first?

00:42:57   - I believe that's right.

00:42:58   - Yeah.

00:42:59   I think most of the stuff has been Kickstarter first.

00:43:01   Anyway, started out with the Glyph,

00:43:03   which is a tripod mount and a stand for iPhones.

00:43:07   And what's interesting too is that they made this adjustable

00:43:10   at the outset, and so because it's adjustable,

00:43:14   it already works with the new iPhones,

00:43:16   including the 6 Plus with or without cases,

00:43:19   which is pretty awesome.

00:43:20   There's a lot of iPhone accessories out there

00:43:22   that many of which become effectively worthless

00:43:26   and unusable once the size of the iPhone changes.

00:43:29   And they've by foresight and probably some luck

00:43:34   been able to buck that trend

00:43:37   and their stuff ends up staying useful.

00:43:38   So good on them for that anyway.

00:43:41   So that's the Glyph Studio needs tripod mount

00:43:43   and stand for iPhones.

00:43:46   But what we're actually talking about today

00:43:48   is that they've moved on to cocktails

00:43:50   and cocktail related products.

00:43:52   So this is Casey's wheelhouse here.

00:43:53   (laughing)

00:43:54   Not the parking lot, right?

00:43:55   Do you drink in the parking lot?

00:43:57   - It does happen before a football game,

00:43:59   but you wouldn't know about that either.

00:44:01   - I'm from Ohio, I know about that.

00:44:02   So anyway, Studio Neat has moved on to cocktails

00:44:06   with the Neat Ice Kit.

00:44:08   And now Casey, both you and I have Neat Ice Kits.

00:44:11   - We do.

00:44:12   - So Tom and Dan, the guys at Studio Neat,

00:44:14   they're on a mission to convince you

00:44:16   that making awesome cocktails at home is not that hard.

00:44:19   Cocktails are simple.

00:44:20   You just need a few readily available ingredients.

00:44:23   And you already have access to everything

00:44:25   a fancy cocktail bar does,

00:44:27   except for clear and correctly sized ice.

00:44:31   So to fix this, Tom and Dan made the Neat Ice Kit.

00:44:34   The Neat Ice Kit is a set of tools

00:44:36   for creating the right ice for your at-home cocktails.

00:44:39   So Casey, can you describe how this works?

00:44:43   - Sure, so the way this works is you order a kit

00:44:45   and it has some foam insulation,

00:44:48   and within that you place this, what is it, silicone mold.

00:44:53   And you fill this mold with just tap water,

00:44:56   or maybe if you really fancy stuff

00:44:58   out of a pure water filter,

00:45:00   and you put that silicone mold in the foam insulation,

00:45:05   you put all of it into the freezer,

00:45:07   and you let it sit for around a day.

00:45:09   And then a day later, what happens is you have this,

00:45:12   I think it's about two inches wide

00:45:14   by two inches long by four inches deep,

00:45:17   recta-- or not a cube, what's the word I'm looking for?

00:45:20   - A rectangular solid.

00:45:22   - Yeah, that.

00:45:23   Thank you.

00:45:24   So anyway, so you have this basically 3D rectangle

00:45:26   and you, half of it is really cloudy

00:45:28   and the top half of it is perfectly, perfectly clear.

00:45:32   And the reason that happens from what I understand

00:45:34   is as the foam insulation keeps the bottom

00:45:38   and sides insulated, the top is exposed to the freezer air.

00:45:42   and so it freezes from top down and so all the impurities end up at the bottom.

00:45:46   Well, then they give you a mallet and a chisel and you can break this rectangular prism,

00:45:52   whatever Marco just called it, in half.

00:45:54   Solid.

00:45:55   Thank you, solid.

00:45:57   And then you have now a two by two by two perfectly clear block of ice.

00:46:02   It is extremely fussy, extremely silly.

00:46:07   It is by most arguments a complete waste of time and every time I have a drink, this is

00:46:12   exactly what I do and I love it and I am so jealous. I mean we are kind of paid to say this

00:46:17   but hand on heart this is absolutely true. I love my neat ice kit. I love it so much that I actually

00:46:24   stockpile uncut bricks. So if for some reason someone comes over unexpectedly or maybe I've

00:46:30   just had a very bad day then I have plenty of crystal clear big ass ice cubes as they call them

00:46:38   in order to put my vodka on top of.

00:46:40   And I cannot recommend it enough.

00:46:43   It really is fantastic.

00:46:44   I did a review of it on my website,

00:46:46   which we may or may not remember to put in the show notes,

00:46:48   but buy 10 of them because they're awesome.

00:46:52   - Yeah, I actually ordered one for myself

00:46:54   before they sponsored the show

00:46:56   just 'cause I thought it was interesting.

00:46:57   And they didn't tell me to say this,

00:46:59   but I've tried a few of the other solutions out there

00:47:02   to try to make fancy ice at home.

00:47:05   and none of the other ones were as easy to use as this one.

00:47:10   So anyway, each Neat Ice Kit includes the mold,

00:47:14   the chisel, the chisel also includes a bottle opener

00:47:16   right in it, so it's pretty cool,

00:47:18   a club that doubles as a muddler, and a Lewis bag.

00:47:21   And I didn't know this, but apparently a Lewis bag

00:47:23   is a bag you crush ice in.

00:47:25   Like you put the ice in the bag,

00:47:26   you hit the bag with your club,

00:47:28   and then out comes crushed ice.

00:47:29   Is that roughly correct, Casey?

00:47:30   - Yeah, that's the idea.

00:47:31   So if you had a situation where you have

00:47:34   cocktail that requires a thin but tall glass and I forget which ones they are

00:47:38   off the top of my head but you could take your big-ass crystal-clear ice cube and

00:47:42   then chop it up a couple more times throw that ice into the Lewis bag use

00:47:46   that muddler like Marco was talking about bang bang bang and crush all that

00:47:50   ice in the Lewis bag and now you've got crystal-clear crushed ice instead of a

00:47:54   cube right or you can even you can you can crush up the cloudy half of the cube

00:47:59   that you would have otherwise put in your dog bowl like I did but because

00:48:03   Hopstich did not care about the cloudiness. He was happy to have ice in his bowl regardless

00:48:06   of whether it was clear or not, but people care. So we can have the cool clear ice for

00:48:11   ourselves. Anyway, the Neat Ice Kit also makes an amazing gift for the holidays, for weddings.

00:48:15   I actually, they, I ordered one for myself and they also sent me one like two weeks later

00:48:20   just because they like me. And so I gave the second one away. I regifted actually, yeah,

00:48:25   but I gave it away because it makes a great gift. So anyway, check it out. Go to StudioNeat.com

00:48:31   Use code ATP when you check out to get 10% off anything in their store

00:48:35   Really? I love these guys. I they have so many great products can't recommend them enough studio neat calm. Don't forget code ATP

00:48:42   Thank you very much. I could go on forever about studio neat and they're such nice guys

00:48:47   Yeah, they're awesome. Like it's even better that they're such nice guys. Oh, yeah, I would still go on and on I've met them

00:48:53   They're they're fantastic. They're that nice in person as well. Yeah

00:48:56   Yeah, and I would go on and on about the neat ice kid

00:48:58   even if they were jerks because it's that wonderful,

00:49:00   but they are also that wonderful.

00:49:02   - Yeah, I'm a big fan of their Cosmonaut.

00:49:04   It's a stylus for iPads.

00:49:07   - I've got that one.

00:49:08   - Yeah, it's like, I've tried, that's another thing,

00:49:10   I've tried a lot of Styleye for text devices

00:49:13   and none of them really worked for me

00:49:17   as well as the Cosmonaut does.

00:49:18   I even have the fancy one from Paper, the Pencil,

00:49:21   and I'm not an artist at all,

00:49:24   and so it doesn't really work for me,

00:49:26   but the Cosmonaut is awesome.

00:49:28   It's like a dry erase marker, basically.

00:49:31   Like that's the feel it has,

00:49:33   which the reason they made it so big and chunky like that

00:49:35   is because that's roughly the precision you have

00:49:39   with any of these things.

00:49:40   And so they made it kind of fit that.

00:49:43   They made the form of it fit the precision

00:49:45   that you actually get.

00:49:46   And so it just makes it feel like more right, you know?

00:49:49   - I hear you.

00:49:51   - Anyway.

00:49:51   - I'm attempting to make it through this episode

00:49:53   and get to a topic, but it's not looking good so far.

00:49:56   - It's not gonna happen.

00:49:56   Now, so let's talk about some bent iPhone tests,

00:50:00   because we haven't done that enough.

00:50:01   - Technically we started with a topic.

00:50:03   - That's true.

00:50:04   - Yeah, that's Marco's new move,

00:50:06   is he derails either before or just in the beginning

00:50:09   of the follow up, he just adds whatever he wants

00:50:10   to talk about to make sure we get to it,

00:50:12   even though it's not follow up.

00:50:13   - Exactly.

00:50:14   - Add that to the bingo board, people.

00:50:15   - Hey, it works, otherwise we'd be all follow up every week.

00:50:18   Nobody wants that.

00:50:19   - No, it would be the same total amount of time,

00:50:22   whether that part is at the beginning or the end,

00:50:23   it would just be appropriate if it was at the end.

00:50:25   Anyway, last week we talked about the Consumer Reports test

00:50:28   and I mentioned a bunch of stuff that I didn't see

00:50:32   in that report, apparently it was there

00:50:33   and either I missed it or I saw an early version

00:50:35   of the report or maybe a reblog of the report

00:50:37   that didn't quite correctly copy and paste the content.

00:50:39   It's hard to tell when you're following things from Twitter

00:50:41   and your iOS device doesn't show the full URL anyway.

00:50:45   But anyway, Consumer Reports did test not just

00:50:48   how much force does it take to break these things

00:50:50   but also how much force can be applied

00:50:52   before what they call deformation,

00:50:54   which is what I was saying.

00:50:55   How much force can you apply before it doesn't spring back?

00:51:00   And so you can see, we'll put the link in the show notes again to those consumer reports.

00:51:03   As you can see, they tested that for the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus as well.

00:51:08   And speaking of bending iPhone 6 and 6 Plus and warranty repairs, we got some interesting

00:51:15   feedback from listener Jared.

00:51:18   And he says, "I made the mistake of looking at my iPhone 6 from the side, bending from

00:51:22   carrying it in my not at all skinny jeans.

00:51:25   That was his emphasis.

00:51:26   Uh, I'm sorry.

00:51:28   Skinny jeans and suit pants.

00:51:29   Bent point is right at the bottom of the lower volume bot button.

00:51:32   Went to the Apple store yesterday, Chicago's Lincoln's Lincoln park, which

00:51:36   is usually super awesome and accommodating.

00:51:38   And here's where it gets interesting.

00:51:39   The genius proceeded to tell me that based on an article in scare quotes, they had

00:51:45   received as of October 3rd, that the bending of the phone only occurs because

00:51:50   a lot of pressure or blunt force and the scratches on my case, which were because of keys in

00:51:55   my pocket by accident, was an indication that my phone had been mistreated and they wouldn't

00:52:00   cover the bend under warranty.

00:52:01   Thus, I would have to pay them $300 on top of the $900 that he already shelled out because

00:52:08   he bought a T-Mobile 128 gig non-contract phone.

00:52:12   So that's a change.

00:52:15   And it seemed at first that Apple was pretty happy

00:52:17   to do a warranty return or exchange on these,

00:52:20   and now apparently not so much.

00:52:23   - Well, it didn't seem that way.

00:52:24   That's what Marco said.

00:52:24   He thought that if you brought it to an Apple store

00:52:27   and had a bend and it was still under warranty,

00:52:29   maybe Apple would be nice and replace it.

00:52:31   - Well, because we had heard reports

00:52:33   from people who did that.

00:52:34   - Yeah.

00:52:35   - Did we get one from someone who said that they--

00:52:36   - I don't know whether it was Twitter or feedback,

00:52:38   but I did read reports like the second or third day

00:52:41   after this started coming out that this might happen,

00:52:44   They were saying people who brought us to the Genius Bar

00:52:46   and they were like, oh yeah, that shouldn't have happened,

00:52:49   here's a new one.

00:52:50   And now we've heard not just from Jared,

00:52:53   but we've heard from a number of people.

00:52:55   I've seen, we have at least two feedback emails here

00:52:58   and I got a couple of tweets to this point as well

00:53:01   that it sounds like in the last few days,

00:53:04   Apple has changed their policy

00:53:06   and has issued some kind of directive from above

00:53:08   saying they're no longer gonna replace phones for being bent

00:53:12   And I don't know, I mean,

00:53:15   I think we don't know enough about this problem yet

00:53:17   to know whether it's actually a real problem or not.

00:53:19   It was sounding at first like it was gonna be a big problem

00:53:22   and then the Consumer Reports thing came out

00:53:24   and then it's like, oh well, it's not really a problem

00:53:26   as much, maybe, probably not.

00:53:28   But we're not gonna know for like six months.

00:53:31   Like in six months, if half the people you know

00:53:34   who have iPhone 6s, they're bent

00:53:36   and these people aren't like totally abusive,

00:53:39   then I think we'll know,

00:53:40   oh, yeah, this actually was a bit of a problem.

00:53:42   - Well, the Consumer Reports does give us the information

00:53:45   because they test, they show a range.

00:53:48   And let me look, did they do the 5S in that test as well?

00:53:51   'Cause that's what we can compare it to

00:53:52   is the most recent Apple phone that we may be familiar with.

00:53:56   I mean, the iPhone 6 was not super weak.

00:53:59   Like the 6 and 6 Plus were not the bottom of the barrel.

00:54:02   They were more towards the middle, middle-low end,

00:54:04   but it wasn't, yeah.

00:54:06   So they were the same as the HTC One.

00:54:08   And you haven't heard lots of stories about the HTC One M8

00:54:11   getting bent, right?

00:54:12   But the HTC One was the weakest.

00:54:14   - There's no one's buying it.

00:54:15   - Yeah, well, you know.

00:54:16   (laughing)

00:54:18   HTC One was the weakest in their test.

00:54:19   The 6 was the second weakest.

00:54:21   The 6 Plus was the third weakest.

00:54:23   But the range is not astronomical.

00:54:25   Yeah, so the iPhone 5 was considerably stronger.

00:54:30   It didn't get deformed until 130 pounds of pressure

00:54:33   versus the 6, which deforms at 70,

00:54:35   and the 6 Plus, which deforms at 90.

00:54:37   So this is a range from 70 to 150 pounds of pressure

00:54:40   for the deformation for best to worst, right?

00:54:43   And so the iPhone 6 Plus is just shy of the middle,

00:54:46   it's on the low end and they, you know, so,

00:54:48   but like those seem like ballparks and like,

00:54:50   is it a difference?

00:54:52   That's why I got into what I talked about last show,

00:54:54   which is, all right, so these tests tell us

00:54:56   what they deform at,

00:54:57   but we don't know what the expected range of pressures

00:55:01   that a phone in your pocket gets subjected to are.

00:55:04   Both based on the length of the phone,

00:55:05   which is what I was talking about last week,

00:55:06   but also just forget the length of the phone,

00:55:08   just say uniform phone length.

00:55:10   If it turns out that the pressures in a person's pocket

00:55:14   generally peak around 100 pounds of pressure,

00:55:17   that means that Apple's iPhone 5

00:55:19   was comfortably above that range,

00:55:21   and now the line of phones they've released

00:55:23   is below that range, right?

00:55:24   And so it could just be there's just a threshold,

00:55:26   like in general, you know,

00:55:28   the worst you're gonna feel in a pocket

00:55:30   is 100 pounds of pressure.

00:55:31   So as long as your phone clears 100 pounds, you're fine.

00:55:32   Like we don't know where that dividing line is.

00:55:34   What is the expectation of pressure?

00:55:36   And so this second email from Chris M

00:55:39   is sort of a contrast to the previous one.

00:55:42   It says he had a phone that was kept in his left pocket

00:55:45   while he played a podcast during a flight.

00:55:48   He said there was no tightness in my pocket

00:55:51   nor was it pressing against anything, et cetera.

00:55:53   Not a mark on it, took it to the Genius Bar.

00:55:56   The Genius person agreed that it had not been mistreated,

00:55:58   it looked perfect, but couldn't replace it under warranty

00:56:01   because of this aforementioned order from above

00:56:03   that they're not doing that anymore, right?

00:56:05   Now, we've seen the numbers for the pressure,

00:56:08   and you say, "Oh, I've never felt any tightness."

00:56:10   Like, these things aren't bending themselves.

00:56:11   It's not Uri Geller bending your phone.

00:56:13   It's like, they're bending because pressure

00:56:14   is being applied to them.

00:56:16   It could be that the pressure is applied in such a way

00:56:17   that it's distributed across your leg so you don't feel it,

00:56:20   but somewhere, somehow, there's at least 70 pounds

00:56:23   of pressure being applied to the center of that.

00:56:25   That's like best case, because it would be harder to bend it

00:56:27   if you apply it 70 pounds of pressure to someplace

00:56:28   other than directly in the middle,

00:56:30   using the edges of the fulcrum.

00:56:31   Like, they're using a three-point press,

00:56:32   holding the very edges, putting the pressure right.

00:56:34   That's the worst case scenario, right?

00:56:36   You would have to apply more pressure

00:56:38   if you were applying it,

00:56:39   if the distance from the fulcrum

00:56:42   and the edge of the thing was shorter.

00:56:44   So somehow pressure is being applied to these phones.

00:56:47   The thing we're missing now is the expected,

00:56:50   what is the environment of the pocket like

00:56:52   in terms of pressures?

00:56:53   And if you're going to build something

00:56:55   to withstand those pressures,

00:56:57   is this phone just under a warranty?

00:57:00   And that I guess we'll find out, like Margo said,

00:57:02   experimentally, it's just like all your friends

00:57:04   who keep their phones in their pockets

00:57:05   are all of them slightly bent in a couple months.

00:57:08   - Right, and when a new iPhone comes out,

00:57:11   when it has any kind of potential physical or design flaw,

00:57:14   you don't really know until a few months in

00:57:17   how bad is it really.

00:57:18   The iPhone 5 came out and the edges scuffed up pretty easily

00:57:21   and showed the lighter color metal underneath.

00:57:23   It took us a while to figure out

00:57:25   that that was gonna be a thing, right?

00:57:26   The iPhone 4 came out,

00:57:27   everyone thought Intenagate was the big problem

00:57:29   when really the big problem with the iPhone 4

00:57:30   was the proximity sensor.

00:57:32   - Was it the home button too on that one?

00:57:33   - Yeah, that was the one where the home button always died.

00:57:36   And you know, so like there's, you don't really know,

00:57:38   like not every iPhone is perfect,

00:57:40   some are better than others.

00:57:41   I think with this one,

00:57:42   I see, I'm actually seeing this table on Consumer Reports,

00:57:47   case separation I don't really care about,

00:57:49   'cause I don't think, like I think the deformation

00:57:52   is the more important column,

00:57:53   the one that people will actually more likely to hit

00:57:55   and get upset by in regular use.

00:57:58   What's interesting, two things, first of all,

00:58:00   that by their measurements, the 6 Plus was actually

00:58:03   stronger than the 6, which I think is the opposite

00:58:06   of what you'd probably expect.

00:58:07   Secondly, the 6 withstood only slightly more than

00:58:12   half as much force as the iPhone 5.

00:58:17   And so that's a pretty big difference.

00:58:20   To only be able to withstand roughly half the force,

00:58:23   that's substantially weaker.

00:58:26   And again, because this test is synthetic,

00:58:28   and you're right, we don't know how this will hold up

00:58:31   in practice, but that does look like a problem.

00:58:36   - The round numbers make me worry about it a little bit too.

00:58:39   Why is it 70, 90, 130?

00:58:42   I don't know if they're just kind of saying

00:58:45   this reflects the imprecision in our experiment

00:58:47   and we didn't wanna show you the exact numbers

00:58:49   because that would show a degree of certainty

00:58:52   that doesn't actually exist in the experiment.

00:58:55   I mean, there are a lot of variables here.

00:58:57   These devices are not uniform solids.

00:58:59   They vary on the inside.

00:59:01   They have different materials at different points,

00:59:03   and there's the weak points with the volume buttons,

00:59:05   but little strengthening strips,

00:59:06   and there's a printed circuit board on one side,

00:59:08   and a battery on the other.

00:59:09   So there's all sorts of variables going on here.

00:59:11   So it's not a straightforward test,

00:59:13   but like I said, what really matters is the environment,

00:59:16   the environment that these phones are subjected to.

00:59:20   But the HTC One up there showing similar,

00:59:23   being the weakest in the test,

00:59:24   and being a phone that's been out for a while,

00:59:26   and that we've heard nothing about bending,

00:59:29   makes you think it can't be that terrible

00:59:31   because if there's gonna be a group of people

00:59:33   who are going to baby their phones,

00:59:34   it's not going to be HTC One owners.

00:59:37   Like the Apple ones are the people who are gonna care

00:59:39   about their little device

00:59:40   and not getting scratches on and stuff like that.

00:59:42   I know the HTC devices are really nice

00:59:43   and appeal to people who like nice things.

00:59:45   I think that HTC makes really good looking phones.

00:59:47   But if I had to take entire groups,

00:59:51   iPhone owners versus HTC One owners and say,

00:59:54   of these groups,

00:59:55   which one will treat their phones nicer.

00:59:56   I'm gonna pick the iPhone one,

00:59:57   'cause I think it attracts a certain kind of hardware nerd.

01:00:01   And so if we haven't heard anything

01:00:02   about HTC One and yes,

01:00:03   is it because they haven't sold any of them?

01:00:05   It's because you don't get any excitement

01:00:08   from telling people that HTC One is bending.

01:00:09   I think we would have seen the story anyway,

01:00:11   if it was a big deal, just because we'd be like,

01:00:13   "Oh, HTC, they can't catch a break.

01:00:14   "They make these great phones that no one seems to buy,

01:00:16   "and now they made one and it bends."

01:00:18   - Honestly, I don't think that's,

01:00:20   I think the things that you just kind of disregarded

01:00:24   are pretty big things.

01:00:26   Like, yeah, no one's buying HTC phones in general,

01:00:29   which is part of the problem HTC is having

01:00:31   with their business.

01:00:31   And you never hear about like minor physical flaws

01:00:36   or minor design flaws of Android phones.

01:00:39   It just doesn't happen.

01:00:40   They're not nearly as high profile.

01:00:42   There is not nearly as much money and attention

01:00:44   to be had by pointing out flaws in them.

01:00:46   It like, it just doesn't happen.

01:00:48   Like that is not a fair comparison.

01:00:49   - I still think it would get reported though.

01:00:52   I mean, the HTC One got reviewed everywhere.

01:00:54   I've seen them in practice.

01:00:55   I've seen people have them.

01:00:56   Like it's not, they're not so rare that you're like,

01:00:58   I've still never seen anyone using a Surface in real life,

01:01:00   but I've seen plenty of HSC ones.

01:01:02   And they got reviewed on all the major sites.

01:01:04   Why would they review it if no one buys HSC?

01:01:06   Like it's not, wouldn't be a big story.

01:01:08   It wouldn't be the Wall Street Journal, right?

01:01:09   But on the sites that we travel in,

01:01:11   I think we would have seen it by now if it was a problem.

01:01:14   - Let me do our final sponsor for the week.

01:01:16   It is our friends at Hova.

01:01:18   Did I do that right?

01:01:21   Why are you, why are you pandering to them or why don't?

01:01:25   And no, no, you did not do it right.

01:01:27   Just yeah, I figured, I mean, what they're all, they're all crazy.

01:01:31   Don't don't listen to that.

01:01:32   I completely agree.

01:01:33   Anyway, hover is the best way to buy a managed domain.

01:01:38   Can you do this entire read in a fake British accent?

01:01:41   I can't anyway, hover is the best way to buy a managed domain names.

01:01:45   Um, I can't really say it better than that.

01:01:48   Hover is a domain-maker star that's awesome.

01:01:51   They have so many great things.

01:01:53   A domain-maker star that is respectful of your time

01:01:56   and your money and your preferences and your privacy,

01:01:59   that's pretty rare right there.

01:02:01   But they back all that up with, they have great design,

01:02:04   they have easy to use powerful tools

01:02:06   to manage your domains, they have all these crazy features

01:02:08   you can add and many of them come for free.

01:02:10   You get privacy built in for free.

01:02:13   Hover believes that certain things should be included

01:02:16   for free with names.

01:02:16   that you shouldn't have to pay extra

01:02:18   to avoid getting spammed at your home address or whatever.

01:02:22   So they give you the privacy feature for free.

01:02:24   They have all these great things you can add on to it,

01:02:26   like email services and everything else.

01:02:28   They have this great valet transfer service

01:02:30   where you can, if you're going to give them your login

01:02:33   to your old registrar, they will log into it

01:02:35   and transfer all your names over to Hover

01:02:38   by themselves for free.

01:02:40   This is no cost, no matter how many names

01:02:41   you're transferring in, they will do it for you.

01:02:43   And they'll do all the settings properly,

01:02:45   they'll do all the DNS properly,

01:02:46   to do all the stupid transfer codes they have to do.

01:02:48   It's a great service.

01:02:50   If you need any support with your domains

01:02:52   or any of your other products you buy through Hover,

01:02:54   they have the best customer support around.

01:02:56   They have step-by-step instructions online,

01:02:58   they have email support, and they have this awesome thing

01:03:01   I love to talk about, the no-wait, no-hold, no-transfer

01:03:05   telephone support service.

01:03:06   They wrote phone, but I said telephone

01:03:08   to make it sound more impressive.

01:03:09   They have telephone support service

01:03:11   because it is pretty impressive these days

01:03:14   that here's like, you know, a website that you can call

01:03:16   and have people actually pick up the phone who can help you.

01:03:19   And they really is like no wait, no hold,

01:03:21   no transfer policy.

01:03:22   You call them up, a person picks up the phone

01:03:25   and they can help you.

01:03:26   There is none of this bouncing around,

01:03:27   no, let me direct you to this department,

01:03:29   let me put you through this stupid touchstone menu

01:03:30   or the even worse, the ones that make you speak

01:03:33   to the robot menus.

01:03:34   Oh, those are the worst.

01:03:36   Track a package.

01:03:37   Those are awful.

01:03:38   Anyway, so when you call them,

01:03:40   a real life human being is there who can actually help you

01:03:43   and they pick up right then.

01:03:44   Their customer support, they know their stuff.

01:03:47   They're very friendly.

01:03:47   They're Canadian, I think.

01:03:49   The company is Canadian.

01:03:49   I don't know if it's, I'm pretty sure

01:03:51   the customer support is right there in their office.

01:03:53   So the customer support's probably also Canadian,

01:03:55   so of course they're gonna be that nice.

01:03:57   Super friendly people, and getting your problem solved

01:03:59   is quick and painless.

01:04:01   They also have volume discounts.

01:04:02   This is a new thing.

01:04:03   If you're buying tons of domains,

01:04:05   more than just, let me see.

01:04:06   Starting at just 10 domains is where the volume discounts

01:04:08   start kicking in, and then they go up in value from there.

01:04:10   The more you buy.

01:04:11   Really great stuff at Hover.

01:04:14   I, again, I can't possibly tell you how great this is

01:04:16   in one ad read, which is why they have given me

01:04:19   three pages of things I can choose to read,

01:04:21   and I go through them all on my parchment paper.

01:04:25   I am going through them all every week,

01:04:29   going through a few new ones.

01:04:29   Anyway.

01:04:30   So, when you're ready to buy your domain name,

01:04:34   go to hover.com, check out what's available.

01:04:36   They have all the new TLDs,

01:04:37   many of which are on sale recently.

01:04:40   They did a huge sale in September.

01:04:42   I'm pretty sure they're still doing one in October as well.

01:04:44   They have all sorts of great domain names.

01:04:46   All the new like stupid crazy ones that you can get,

01:04:49   they have them all and you can register them all

01:04:51   right there at Hover.

01:04:52   So you can go to Hover, you can get a .plumbing name

01:04:54   if you want to, they have that.

01:04:56   They have like .nyc, like all these like crazy new TLDs,

01:05:00   they have them all.

01:05:02   Go to hover.com, use the promo code at checkout,

01:05:05   invisible spreadsheet to get 10% off your order.

01:05:09   Once again, go to hover.com,

01:05:11   and don't forget to use coupon code, invisiblespreadsheet,

01:05:14   all one word, invisiblespreadsheet.

01:05:17   That will get you 10% off your first order.

01:05:19   Thank you very much to Hover

01:05:20   for sponsoring our show once again.

01:05:21   - We're almost through the follow-up.

01:05:24   - No, we're done, skip everything else.

01:05:26   - Oh, I thought you wanted to defend your iPhone grip,

01:05:29   which is wrong.

01:05:29   - No, someone gave us that link last weekend,

01:05:31   you never put it in the show notes,

01:05:32   now it's stale, but whatever.

01:05:34   - You know, I do wanna mention one more thing

01:05:35   about the iPhone 6 physical design and grip.

01:05:38   So first of all, I used my 5s briefly today

01:05:41   to set up the live streamer.

01:05:42   And yeah, the 5s is such a better looking phone.

01:05:46   Especially the back.

01:05:47   You look at the back and it's like, man, this thing--

01:05:49   the 5s looks downright sexy on the back.

01:05:51   And the 6 and 6 Plus look stupid on the back.

01:05:55   I don't like how the 5 looks on the back.

01:05:57   I can see the argument for the 6 looking worse on the back,

01:06:00   but I just do not like the back.

01:06:01   It just looks so boring to me.

01:06:02   The 5 I'll give you-- the 5s I disagree with.

01:06:05   Because the 5s, the way they change

01:06:07   tone of the of the dark color I know but like it like all the things that look

01:06:10   good about the 5 and 5s back look good in Apple's close-up shots from a human

01:06:15   distance not and met with macro photography it's just a a matte metal

01:06:21   bathtub with you know chamfered edges that are probably nicked no but like the

01:06:26   whit like they'd with like the two-tone back with like the glass windows and

01:06:29   everything that it's just I think it looks so much anyway anyway so first of

01:06:33   all yes impression going back to it is oh my god this thing is tiny secondly oh

01:06:37   my god I can reach everything this is glorious because I'm still still having

01:06:43   trouble reaching everything yeah and and I've definitely I've decided this week

01:06:47   Tiff gave in and got a case for hers and I've decided I'm gonna get a case too

01:06:51   and I have never had a case on my phone before I carried phones I carried Palm

01:06:57   pilots I never had a case on those I have never had a case on an electronic

01:07:01   device I've ever carried around, as far as I can remember.

01:07:04   I might be wrong, but as far as I can remember,

01:07:05   I've never had.

01:07:06   The closest I came was I had like this leather,

01:07:09   like a leather cling stick-on thing

01:07:12   on the back glass panel of my 4 and 4S, which is awesome.

01:07:14   And actually, I ordered new ones to try on the big phone,

01:07:18   or on the current phone.

01:07:19   - You just killed a cricket with a case, didn't you?

01:07:22   - That was Tiff's iPad.

01:07:23   - All right. (laughs)

01:07:24   - She has used cases before, although never on phones.

01:07:27   But I have never used one, as far as I can remember.

01:07:30   - So what did you get case wise?

01:07:32   - Tiff got the Apple leather case.

01:07:34   I am waiting for my leather thing to come in the mail

01:07:36   to see if that will be enough.

01:07:39   Which is great, it's actually only,

01:07:40   it's like 20 bucks so it's great but.

01:07:41   - So why are you getting the case though?

01:07:43   Why have you decided this is the one you need a case for?

01:07:46   - It's because when I hold this phone on my hand,

01:07:50   it just feels slippery.

01:07:51   And I know that was, you know,

01:07:54   everyone says the new phones feel slippery

01:07:55   when new phones come out.

01:07:57   This is, even when the 4 and 4S came out

01:07:59   the glass back, which actually grips pretty well.

01:08:01   People said it felt slippery

01:08:02   because it did compare to the 3GS.

01:08:04   People always say that, but this time,

01:08:06   I've now been using this phone for what,

01:08:08   two and a half weeks, however long it's been?

01:08:10   And it still feels very precarious.

01:08:12   I have almost dropped it many times.

01:08:14   And I have never, as far as I can remember,

01:08:16   I've never dropped an iPhone or any other electronic device.

01:08:20   - So you think it's the rounded edges, the thinness?

01:08:23   It's not the material.

01:08:24   - I think it's a combination of all,

01:08:25   I think it's a combination of the rounded edges,

01:08:28   the thinness and the back.

01:08:30   - Well you think, do the, you can do the tilt test right now.

01:08:33   Do the tilt test with the 5S and the 6,

01:08:35   just to see at what angle do I have to tilt my hand

01:08:37   before it starts sliding off,

01:08:38   'cause everyone I've known who's done that test

01:08:40   has said that the 6 is either more grippier

01:08:42   or equally grippy with the 5

01:08:44   in terms of just, you know, friction with your skin.

01:08:46   But the rounded edges and the thinness

01:08:48   do make it feel slipperier.

01:08:49   Like that, you know, like it's like a little,

01:08:51   you don't have the sharp edges

01:08:53   that you feel like you're gonna hold onto.

01:08:54   - Yeah, I guess try to do the tilt test,

01:08:56   and I can't, I can't, I mean, I'm not gonna drop them,

01:08:58   but I can get almost 90 degrees.

01:08:59   So that's not really, but mostly 'cause my hands

01:09:01   are slightly moist 'cause I'm warm, but anyway.

01:09:03   - But you just put the five and the six next to each other

01:09:06   in the same hand and it's not a problem.

01:09:07   Anyway, the point is like, I don't think the material

01:09:09   is at fault, but the rounded edges and the thinness

01:09:11   definitely need to make it feel like that.

01:09:12   Maybe this one is getting, finally has crossed

01:09:14   your naked robotic core threshold where you're like,

01:09:16   okay, now this is clearly not the device.

01:09:19   This is clearly the core of the device

01:09:22   that I will slot into something that I'm going to hold.

01:09:25   - Well, it's a combination of factors.

01:09:26   To me, the big things that make this phone

01:09:29   feel more precarious and possibly be more precarious

01:09:32   to hold are the combination of the side design,

01:09:36   like the sides themselves don't dig into your hands at all.

01:09:39   They don't grip your hand.

01:09:41   Like the sides of the five with the squared side

01:09:44   and like the sharp edges,

01:09:45   that does kind of nicely grip your hand.

01:09:48   There's like a big surface there

01:09:49   for friction to stay in place.

01:09:51   So that's a big part of it.

01:09:53   Secondly, I think the possibly bigger part,

01:09:56   besides not having grippy sides,

01:09:59   is that I have to so often change my grip on the phone

01:10:04   in use to be able to reach something.

01:10:07   And that I think is by far the biggest risk

01:10:12   to dropping it, is like when you're holding it one handed,

01:10:14   you're walking around, you're holding it, doing something,

01:10:17   and you gotta go hit a button in the upper corner

01:10:19   that you can't reach.

01:10:20   And so you gotta change your grip,

01:10:21   you gotta like choke up on it,

01:10:23   and then it is much more precarious in your hand

01:10:25   at that point because you have lost your supporting pinky,

01:10:29   your load-bearing pinky at the bottom,

01:10:31   or you've just used your grip the whole time,

01:10:32   which God knows how that works.

01:10:33   (laughing)

01:10:36   And so I have to reach up and you have a lot less support

01:10:41   in that time and you are literally,

01:10:43   you're scooting the phone down your hand

01:10:47   so that you are intentionally loosening your grip on it

01:10:50   to change where you're holding it.

01:10:51   And so what I'm looking for,

01:10:54   so I still don't have a case on my phone yet,

01:10:58   but I picked up TIFs a couple times in the last couple days

01:11:02   to check something on it, and it feels glorious.

01:11:05   I'm like, oh my god, I need this,

01:11:06   with the Apple leather case on it.

01:11:08   That is how I want this phone to feel.

01:11:12   It improves so many things.

01:11:13   And it does make the edge swipe gestures a little,

01:11:17   it's slightly annoying to do,

01:11:19   'cause you have to hit the edge of the case

01:11:20   with your finger.

01:11:21   However, when I'm not using the case on the phone,

01:11:26   which is how I'm using my phone,

01:11:27   there's a different problem,

01:11:28   which is that you have to make sure

01:11:31   that you're not accidentally touching the screen

01:11:33   with any part of your grip.

01:11:34   Because the screen is so close to the edges

01:11:36   and they are so nicely rounded,

01:11:38   that it's very easy to accidentally

01:11:40   touch the edge of the screen.

01:11:41   Especially if you're reaching across it.

01:11:44   If you're like diagonally reaching across

01:11:45   with your thumb to one of the upper corners,

01:11:47   then like the pad of your hand below your thumb,

01:11:49   it's very easy to accidentally hit the screen with that.

01:11:52   And so there's all these problems,

01:11:54   and I even thought the other day

01:11:57   that the digitizer on my phone was broken around the edges

01:12:00   because all of my edge tasks were not registering

01:12:02   and I frequently have problems

01:12:04   bringing up the lock screen camera, which is an edge drag.

01:12:08   And a bunch of people tweeted back

01:12:10   basically saying they've had the same thing

01:12:12   even on their 5Ss after iOS 8.

01:12:15   So it appears to be a software bug

01:12:16   of the automatic finger rejection

01:12:18   that's always been more prevalent on the iPad.

01:12:20   They're applying it to the iPhones now as well.

01:12:22   I don't know if they always have,

01:12:23   but it's at least doing it in iOS 8.

01:12:25   The new phones, the screen goes so close to the edge

01:12:29   that they have to do that.

01:12:30   So, and it seems like it calibrates

01:12:33   based on whenever you unlock the phone.

01:12:34   Like if you lock it and then unlock it,

01:12:36   it seems to recalibrate.

01:12:38   And so if you're getting edge tapped, ignore, do that,

01:12:41   it tends to fix it.

01:12:42   But like, if you have a case on it,

01:12:44   you are far less likely to accidentally be touching the edge

01:12:47   So it will also improve the reliability

01:12:50   of edge touch gestures in normal use.

01:12:53   So I feel like this is the first phone

01:12:56   where the stock design of it

01:13:01   is just not that compatible with me.

01:13:04   Like it's the first iPhone where I felt this way

01:13:06   where I actually need a case or something

01:13:10   to make this more ergonomic and more usable to me.

01:13:15   And I'm hearing very similar complaints

01:13:19   from a lot of people.

01:13:21   I think we're going to look back on this design

01:13:24   in the future once we have a different design

01:13:26   and once we've had the benefits of hindsight and time,

01:13:30   I think we're gonna look back on the iPhone 6 design

01:13:33   as a low point.

01:13:34   Not to say it's a failure,

01:13:36   but that it's not up to the usual standards

01:13:39   of what we come to expect from iPhone designs.

01:13:42   - Do you think the curved glass,

01:13:44   The fact that the screen, so I assume this is the case,

01:13:47   I didn't look closely at the one when I was handling it,

01:13:48   but there's part of the glass in the front of the iPhone 6

01:13:52   that is not the screen.

01:13:54   - That's right.

01:13:55   - Because the curved part, the screen image is not displayed

01:13:57   on the entire curved part.

01:13:58   At a certain point the screen stops,

01:13:59   but the glass keeps going.

01:14:01   So it doesn't make it clear to your finger

01:14:04   or any part of you, I'm touching glass now,

01:14:06   but is this part of the glass that I'm touching

01:14:08   part of the screen image or part of the digitizer

01:14:11   that detects my touch?

01:14:12   And that, I think, could lead to some confusion,

01:14:16   both about edge touches and touch rejection

01:14:19   and just feeling in your hand what it is that you're doing.

01:14:23   Whereas before, I think--

01:14:25   I don't know.

01:14:26   I don't have my iPod touch with me.

01:14:27   I think the screen image went up to something

01:14:29   that you could feel.

01:14:30   Do you have an iOS device?

01:14:31   And you look at it and tell me if that's the case?

01:14:34   I have every iOS device.

01:14:37   So screen images go to the edge of the--

01:14:39   can you feel where the lights stop or no?

01:14:42   - No, no, and I can't on a 5S either.

01:14:44   - All right, well, nevermind.

01:14:45   - But on a 5S, like on a 5S, you never had any reason

01:14:48   for any part of your finger or hand to be resting

01:14:50   on the front face of the phone

01:14:51   that was not going to the screen.

01:14:52   Whereas because of the curved edge,

01:14:54   you're kind of always partially on it.

01:14:56   - Yeah, you can feel the edge now.

01:14:58   That would be your dividing point for feeling in your hand.

01:15:01   Am I touching the screen?

01:15:02   Or I mean, not since that corner is there.

01:15:03   Like, well, once I round the corner,

01:15:05   even though that's not technically the screen right there,

01:15:07   you would keep your hands out

01:15:08   where the curve can sort of lead you into touching it.

01:15:11   I've had cases on all of my iPod touches always I used to always use silicone cases because they were the most grippy and that's

01:15:17   what I wanted and then I eventually gave up on that because I couldn't find a good one for my

01:15:21   Current gen iPod touch and moved to TPU which I like as well and now Apple's making a silicone case

01:15:27   Where were they, you know five years ago?

01:15:28   But I'm probably gonna try their so okay

01:15:30   So I get one of these because I like it to be super grippy

01:15:33   For all the reasons that you said it, but I've just always felt that way

01:15:36   I've always felt that all the iPod touches were too thin and slippery for me to use without a case

01:15:39   So I'd like to go back a minute and explore what happened in your head when you picked up that 5S.

01:15:46   And Erin is still on the 5S by her own choice. And I use her phone probably once every day, once every couple of days, because it's the nearest one and I need to look something up.

01:15:59   And every time I pick up Aaron's phone, the first thought I have, which is what you said, Marco, is, "Holy crap, this feels so much better in my hand."

01:16:11   I think I actually prefer, from a feel point of view, I prefer having the flat sides. Certainly, I can reach everything, which is marvelous because I never realized how much I use my iPhone with only one hand.

01:16:26   But the second thought I have is,

01:16:30   holy crap, the screen is a postage stamp.

01:16:33   And when I was expecting what came to be the six,

01:16:38   I didn't think I really was yearning

01:16:41   for more screen real estate.

01:16:43   And now that I have it,

01:16:44   which is exactly what everyone said would happen,

01:16:46   I really don't like going back.

01:16:48   But the hardware is so much better.

01:16:51   And so I was curious, Marco,

01:16:52   do you also get that feeling of,

01:16:54   oh my gosh, this is so cramped

01:16:56   when you're using the phone?

01:16:58   - I mean, granted, I haven't used it that much.

01:17:00   I just picked it up and played with a few things

01:17:02   for minutes here and there, but what I notice is that

01:17:07   I think the screen is really tiny.

01:17:09   I think, oh my God, I can never go back to this.

01:17:12   However, then I notice, not only does it feel better,

01:17:15   not only can I reach everything,

01:17:17   but because of those two factors,

01:17:19   I can actually use it much faster.

01:17:21   Like, whatever I'm trying to do on the 5S,

01:17:23   I can do faster than I can do it on the six.

01:17:26   And this is even after now being pretty used to the six.

01:17:29   And I think it's because I can reach everything

01:17:32   so much faster.

01:17:33   And I wanted more screen space.

01:17:36   I was on the side of people that said,

01:17:38   "Please give us bigger screens."

01:17:40   I think Louis Mantilla, he tweeted, I think it was him,

01:17:43   he tweeted like, I don't know, a week ago,

01:17:46   something along the lines of,

01:17:48   "They should have done two different sizes."

01:17:51   like I think he said like 4.5 and 5.0 and I don't know what the big one you

01:17:57   know people who have the big phone like it so maybe 5.5 was the right size for

01:18:00   the big one but I think 4.5 rather than 4.7 might have been the better size for

01:18:06   the 6. I think that would have made it you know a little closer to to the 4

01:18:12   inch thing that was so easy to feel and reach everything for so many people you

01:18:15   know obviously 0.2 inches is not a big difference but it is it is a noticeable

01:18:19   I don't think we even really know yet the full value

01:18:23   of having more screen space on the phones

01:18:25   because so much software doesn't take advantage of it yet.

01:18:27   So all this might change in a year

01:18:30   when more apps are updated, you know,

01:18:31   but for now I think it's kind of like the,

01:18:35   like you know, buying the contrast ETV in the store.

01:18:38   When I look at the six and I look at the screen,

01:18:40   I would much rather, like it's more appealing to me,

01:18:43   but when I actually try to use the phone,

01:18:45   The 5S, I think, is more usable for me.

01:18:50   - Yeah, I would agree with that.

01:18:52   It's funny because I don't know

01:18:57   if I were to do it all over again,

01:18:59   and let's suppose in some hypothetical world

01:19:01   I could have the six internals in a 5S case.

01:19:05   I'm leaning toward I would choose the,

01:19:09   I don't know, hypothetical iPhone 6 mini,

01:19:12   but it's a tough call.

01:19:13   And what I'm really curious to see,

01:19:15   and I'd be curious to hear what you guys think.

01:19:16   Do you think that next year,

01:19:19   Apple will make a iPhone 6S in a four inch form factor?

01:19:24   I'm leaning towards no, but I think I want them to.

01:19:29   - I think they gotta look at the sales numbers though.

01:19:32   It's like, they don't have to make that decision right away.

01:19:35   Although they already probably have

01:19:36   enough sales information.

01:19:37   Like they know, you know,

01:19:38   how well did the 4S sell when we put out the five?

01:19:41   How well did the five, well, five selling,

01:19:43   but the 5S like,

01:19:44   If it looks like the 5S and 5C are selling way out

01:19:49   of proportion to the numbers we would expect

01:19:50   for like last year's phone, they're gonna be like,

01:19:52   okay, this shows there is an appetite for the smaller model

01:19:57   that is disproportionate to it.

01:19:59   Like every year someone always buys last year's model,

01:20:01   but this year we sold like five times as many

01:20:04   of last year's model, and what we're showing is that

01:20:06   people who had fives rather than upgraded to sixes

01:20:09   chose to get last year's model.

01:20:13   I think those numbers will be compelling to Apple,

01:20:15   but in the absence of those numbers,

01:20:17   if it just looks like, oh, well, it's the same as every year

01:20:19   a couple of people buy the last year's phone

01:20:21   and then more people buy the new one.

01:20:23   It seems like if they wanted one in that size,

01:20:26   with, you know, if they wanted to keep one in that category,

01:20:30   they would have maybe done something to,

01:20:33   besides leaving the 5S and 5C exactly as they are.

01:20:35   I don't know, like if they had come out

01:20:37   with three different size phones,

01:20:38   would we have all freaked out?

01:20:39   Two phones, three phones?

01:20:41   What's one phone more or less?

01:20:42   Just feel like they have the manufacturing lines up for those other ones

01:20:45   They're just gonna keep making them

01:20:45   But once those age out and God knows how long that'll be cuz are they still selling the 4s somewhere in the world

01:20:50   maybe anyway

01:20:53   The lesson is are they selling 3.5 inches anymore? No, they're not so like

01:20:58   If the if their sales patterns match every every other sales pattern that they've done when they've bumped the size

01:21:04   They will let the smaller size age out if the sales patterns are do not match that phenomenon in a significant way

01:21:09   They're gonna say oh now we have to backfill that with a different phone

01:21:11   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:21:14   I'm with you on that.

01:21:15   I think it will depend, like right now,

01:21:18   for this next year at least, or at least right now,

01:21:21   you can get a 5S, 32 gig for 150 on contract.

01:21:25   And that's a pretty good deal,

01:21:27   and that's a pretty good phone,

01:21:29   and in many respects it's very close to the 6.

01:21:32   Going from the 5S to the 6 is,

01:21:36   if you don't care about the screen size difference,

01:21:40   In other respects, it's a fairly small difference,

01:21:43   except unfortunately the camera is noticeably better.

01:21:46   - I would also add that the battery life,

01:21:49   even a couple weeks in on my 6,

01:21:51   yes, I understand it's a brand new battery,

01:21:53   yes, I understand the 5S battery was a year old,

01:21:55   but I feel like the battery life is noticeably better

01:22:00   on my 6 than it was on my--

01:22:02   - It's rated higher, isn't it?

01:22:03   Like Apple's numbers put it as higher, right?

01:22:05   - I honestly don't know.

01:22:07   - I think it's like an hour or two over,

01:22:08   Yeah, like any you know like we said before like the numbers when you look at them on Apple spec sheet

01:22:12   There's an oh the success slightly higher numbers than the 5s, but slightly higher like those are hours

01:22:18   They're showing even if it's one higher one extra hour feels like an eternity like oh my god

01:22:23   I still have a whole hour to go on this phone. It's amazing you know so

01:22:25   Yeah, like that. I said the new battery stuff last time a lot of people can been complaining about that

01:22:30   That's to remind people that it's that that advantage is going to be massively exaggerated with your one or two year old phone

01:22:36   But I'm pretty sure Apple actually in the specs shows it as being yes the 6 gets better battery life than the 5s

01:22:41   Even if they were both brand new out of the box. I

01:22:43   think if enough people either buy the 5s in the next year like more more than however many people usually buy the year-old phone and

01:22:52   If enough and and you know say next year

01:22:55   I wouldn't expect them to bring out a new 4 inch phone next year, you know next year is like the s cycle

01:23:01   I'll likelihood it they'll be like, you know the 6s and the 6s plus or whatever

01:23:05   But the year after that, when it's time for a likely

01:23:09   redesign, on a two year redesign cycle,

01:23:12   it wouldn't surprise me if they had a smaller phone

01:23:16   as part of that next redesign.

01:23:17   So I'm thinking for small phone fans,

01:23:18   it's gonna be a rough next two years.

01:23:20   Or yeah, it's gonna be a rough next two years,

01:23:22   but then there might be something.

01:23:25   Because the thing is, with the screen size,

01:23:28   there is not a lot of ways they could have better executed

01:23:33   the physical design of this phone

01:23:35   that would have made the screen not be too big

01:23:39   to the people who think the screen is too big today.

01:23:41   Like, or that think the phone is too big.

01:23:43   Because there's already,

01:23:45   like they couldn't really make the phone

01:23:47   that much smaller than what it is right now

01:23:49   and still have this size screen.

01:23:51   So I think if the 6 is too big for you,

01:23:54   any phone with a 4.7 inch screen in the future

01:23:57   is likely to be too big for you.

01:23:59   I don't think they can fix this problem

01:24:01   with design improvements, really.

01:24:03   So either the problem will go away

01:24:06   and people will just deal with it

01:24:07   'cause they want the other advantages of the phone

01:24:11   or those people will start choosing non-Apple phones

01:24:14   which I'm sure Apple does not want.

01:24:16   So we'll see what happens there, I guess.

01:24:18   - So if Apple on either the 6S or the 7,

01:24:23   they bring back the four inch form factor,

01:24:25   how do they spin that from a marketing perspective?

01:24:29   - They completely ignore it

01:24:30   and they say give it some cool name like iPhone Air,

01:24:33   iPhone Mini, iPhone Nano.

01:24:34   - They don't have to spin it because if they time it right,

01:24:37   all they'll be doing is making sure that they continue

01:24:39   to have a phone of that size in their lineup.

01:24:41   Because they have phones of that size in their lineup now,

01:24:43   the 5C will eventually go away,

01:24:45   you're left with the 5S, the 5S goes away,

01:24:47   and that's the point you replace it

01:24:48   with your new four inch phone.

01:24:50   I don't think that requires any explanation.

01:24:52   - All right, we good?

01:24:54   - Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:24:56   Hova, Studio Neat, and Squarespace,

01:24:59   And we will see you next week.

01:25:01   - If it's even possible,

01:25:02   you're saying hover even more incorrectly,

01:25:04   even more like they don't like.

01:25:06   Like you're saying you're forcing the you

01:25:08   even more than you were before.

01:25:10   - Sorry, hover. - I can't do it either, so.

01:25:12   No, I can't do it, I'm just, I don't know.

01:25:14   - It's because it's incorrect.

01:25:15   That's why you can't do it.

01:25:16   - Yeah.

01:25:17   (upbeat music)

01:25:20   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:25:22   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:25:25   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:25:26   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:25:27   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:25:29   John didn't do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn't let him, cause it was accidental,

01:25:36   it was accidental.

01:25:39   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM, and if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:25:50   @CASEYLISS so that's Kasey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:25:59   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:26:04   USA, Syracuse, it's accidental (it's accidental)

01:26:10   They didn't mean to, accidental (accidental)

01:26:15   ♪ Don't take my cast so long ♪

01:26:18   - Little more on the screen thing

01:26:21   since now we have more time,

01:26:22   'cause we're in the after show.

01:26:23   - Is that how this works?

01:26:25   - So again, as I said earlier,

01:26:27   I wanted a bigger screen before we had bigger screens.

01:26:29   I really, I wanted this.

01:26:30   I was hoping to get one and we got one.

01:26:33   However, I kind of questioned the value

01:26:35   of relatively small screen size improvement

01:26:39   or screen size increases on devices

01:26:41   that you almost always hold in portrait orientation.

01:26:45   Because you pay a lot in phone size

01:26:47   for these diagonal increases,

01:26:49   but you get so little horizontal space with each game.

01:26:54   Like the horizontal size difference is very small

01:26:57   between these three models.

01:26:59   And I would argue that that actually matters a lot more

01:27:02   for a lot of things, things like reading

01:27:04   and a lot of applications, any kind of email kind of stuff.

01:27:10   width matters so much for all these apps,

01:27:12   it is so often the limiting factor

01:27:13   in how usable something is,

01:27:14   web page and stuff like that, that--

01:27:17   - You want that square Blackberry phone.

01:27:19   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:27:21   Yeah, but like, I can, honestly,

01:27:23   I can see why some crazy person there

01:27:25   thought that was a good idea.

01:27:26   Like, because you really, like,

01:27:29   you're making the phone so much bigger

01:27:32   in ways that only really get you a little bit

01:27:34   of verticals or horizontal space.

01:27:37   Well, like you said, you want the apps to get updated.

01:27:40   If they update the apps, a few pixels does matter.

01:27:43   Suddenly layouts that were not feasible before

01:27:45   become feasible due to the average length,

01:27:47   the average size of post titles and avatar images.

01:27:51   You just need the software to be updated,

01:27:53   because if all you're doing is stretching

01:27:54   the existing iPhone UI, like you saw in that scene

01:27:56   that when you stretched overcast the iPad,

01:27:59   then you're not getting any value out of those extra pixels.

01:28:01   But I think there are enough extra pixels

01:28:02   that a UI designed for them

01:28:04   can actually derive value from it.

01:28:06   - Maybe, but there's also the factor that

01:28:09   when you, by making the screen bigger,

01:28:11   you also had to abandon certain areas of the screen

01:28:15   that are no longer easily reachable in your designs.

01:28:18   - Yeah, but not for control,

01:28:19   I'm saying just for display purposes.

01:28:20   Like most of the larger size is not so,

01:28:22   you know, it hurts you in terms of control placement,

01:28:24   but it helps you in terms of how much information

01:28:26   can you put on the screen.

01:28:27   Like, it's the type of thing where

01:28:28   if you're so used to using an app on the iPad,

01:28:31   and then you go use the iPhone version

01:28:32   and you're missing half the UI,

01:28:33   you're like, oh yeah, they can't show that part of the UI,

01:28:36   even in landscape mode because they just don't have room.

01:28:38   And it just feels like you're looking at the app

01:28:40   through like an overlay with a cutout in it.

01:28:42   You can only see the table view.

01:28:44   You can't see the sidebar.

01:28:45   Apps that are updated, especially for the six plus,

01:28:48   but maybe also for the six,

01:28:50   it may take longer to do that for the six to say like,

01:28:53   okay, we're in a world where I can assume

01:28:55   that you're gonna have these extra pixels available,

01:28:56   but I think that will make a difference.

01:28:58   And even if just simple things of like,

01:29:00   you can read more text on a webpage before you have to flick,

01:29:02   you know, that type of thing.

01:29:04   - See, but the thing is, it's most obvious to me

01:29:07   that the vertical real estate is a big deal

01:29:10   when I go to the Messages app on Aaron's phone.

01:29:14   And yes, some of that is horizontal,

01:29:16   but I feel like a lot of the difference is

01:29:19   I can see so much more context on my phone

01:29:22   as to the last several messages that have been sent,

01:29:25   or in my case, the last several GIFs,

01:29:27   that I can't see on Aaron's phone

01:29:30   because the screen is vertically a lot shorter as well.

01:29:33   I think the biggest benefit of larger screen is for people who have trouble seeing things

01:29:37   on a squinty little screen.

01:29:39   The zoom mode, or just using it in regular mode but cranking up the text size, both of

01:29:43   those things.

01:29:44   The fact that zoom mode, which we haven't really talked about much, exists on both the

01:29:46   6 and the 6 Plus shows not only are we going to give you a bigger thing, but we're going

01:29:51   to allow you to crank it even more.

01:29:53   And a large and only increasing proportion of the potential customer base has bad vision

01:30:00   and likes to see things bigger.

01:30:02   All right, what else is going on? Anything else for the after show or are we gonna wrap

01:30:06   this somewhat early?

01:30:07   GameCube controllers.

01:30:08   I was hoping to avoid GameCube controllers.

01:30:11   Yeah, all right, all right. We can avoid it.

01:30:13   Now, you can have your minutes in the sun here.

01:30:16   Oh, can I? Do you even know what this is about?

01:30:21   No.

01:30:22   Neither do I.

01:30:23   No? Neither one of you?

01:30:24   I know you're really excited about GameCube controllers for some reason.

01:30:26   Oh, you too. See, I should say this when I go on gaming podcasts

01:30:31   and then I can talk about my controller stuff.

01:30:33   OK. I mean, no, I'd love to hear it.

01:30:35   So what what happened?

01:30:37   It looks like they're like they're now for sale again. No, there's

01:30:40   no, no, no. Yeah, I don't know.

01:30:44   I guess. Oh, I see what this is.

01:30:46   I can understand why you guys don't follow this stuff.

01:30:48   Yeah. So did you click the little link?

01:30:49   It's just an adapter. Let's use the game controller.

01:30:51   Like so Smash Brothers is coming out of the fighting game for.

01:30:54   It's out for three days coming out for the Wii U.

01:30:56   It's very popular and for a while we've known that they were going to sell an adapter that lets you use

01:31:03   Your GameCube controller with your Wii U and they're selling a special Smash Brothers branded one with a little logo on it

01:31:09   Specifically for this purpose so the adapter is one thing and then they were going to reissue the GameCube controllers with logo on it

01:31:14   Saying we know you love playing Smash Brothers with the GameCube controller and your GameCube here you go

01:31:19   You'll be able to keep doing that on the Wii U and that's kind of like

01:31:24   Kind of like if we were just talking about the iPhone being replaced and like okay well the small ones are aging out

01:31:28   It's time to make a new four inch version, and if what they did instead

01:31:33   was

01:31:35   Brought back the exactly the 5s and like gave you a way to use your 5s with iOS 10

01:31:39   Right or with iOS 9 or whatever they're up to at that point

01:31:43   It would be like aren't you gonna make a new like I know you like that that phone size was good

01:31:47   But aren't you gonna make a new small phone?

01:31:48   Well see here they say well you like that controller so much we've given up on ever making a better controller

01:31:53   So we're just gonna bring back. We're gonna sell you a $20 adapter. Let's you use your old controller from whatever year that was

01:31:59   2001 maybe 2002

01:32:03   Just bring that one back. We're gonna keep we'll keep making them. We never really stopped making them

01:32:07   We're just gonna keep making them again, and I think it's right

01:32:11   I'm happy because the news is the news now is that not only will you be able to use this GameCube controller with Smash Brothers

01:32:17   Which everybody knew but Apple Apple Nintendo has officially announced that you will be able to use this GameCube controller adapter with any

01:32:23   game that supports the Classic Controller, the Wii Classic Controller Pro, and the Wii

01:32:27   U Pro Controller.

01:32:28   Which is basically like if you have a Virtual Console game or some other game, like, this

01:32:31   adapter isn't just, you know, the only reason you'd buy this adapter is if you have this

01:32:35   one game.

01:32:36   The adapter will essentially allow you to use your GameCube controller in all the reasonable

01:32:39   scenarios where you would expect a GameCube-like controller to work.

01:32:42   And I'm very happy about that because I don't like the Wii U Pro Controller for a variety

01:32:46   of reasons.

01:32:48   But I'm also like this this announcement makes me think a Nintendo is a mid admitting that

01:32:54   the Wii U Pro controller is crappy.

01:32:56   It's not like it's not shoddily made.

01:32:58   It's nicely made.

01:32:59   It looks nice.

01:33:00   It feels reasonably good.

01:33:01   But there's a reason people prefer the GameCube patrol, which is inferior in many ways, especially

01:33:06   the D-pad.

01:33:07   The D-pad on the GameCube controller is a total write off.

01:33:08   Like the GameCube controller is not perfect, but it is better overall, I think, than the

01:33:12   Wii U Pro controller.

01:33:13   that Nintendo is reissuing this controller and making an adapter for it says we admit

01:33:19   that our fancy new Wii U Pro controller has not met with the enthusiasm that we hoped it would,

01:33:25   especially among people who like the GameCube controller. And then they're further admitting

01:33:31   that we can't do any better or we're not going to try to do any better right now. So all we're

01:33:37   going to do is let you use your old controller. And that's kind of exciting and depressing at

01:33:41   at the same time because what you would expect them to do, like we're expecting them with the phones,

01:33:45   if the small ones are popular, make me a new 4-inch phone that is better than my old 4-inch phone that

01:33:51   brings along all the things I liked about my 4-inch phone, but is new and improves on the things that you would expect, like,

01:33:57   how about something that's like a GameCube controller, but has a D-pad that's worth a damn? Or,

01:34:02   you know, fix the shoulder buttons to be more interesting than the GameCube shoulder buttons because they were a little bit weird.

01:34:06   I don't know. So it's happy news, sad news,

01:34:10   But all I know is I'm getting this adapter and I already ordered two new GameCube controllers.

01:34:14   So question, why are there two USB connectors on this?

01:34:21   And more importantly, why are they different colors?

01:34:24   Because one USB connector is not enough for four controllers, apparently.

01:34:29   Who knows what's crazy? I don't know. I mean, look at the look at the connectors on this.

01:34:33   Like this is ancient technology. You know, this is before wireless, before USB controllers.

01:34:39   Yeah, but you're still not answering my question. Why the hell would you make one gray and one black? That's hideous.

01:34:43   Oh, I'm assuming that because you have to plug one into one board and one into the other, like, they want you to differentiate them.

01:34:49   Someone's saying one is for data and one is for power for the rumble.

01:34:52   Oh, yeah.

01:34:52   So you can power four rumble packs.

01:34:54   My best guess, too, does the Wii U only have two USB ports?

01:34:57   Uh, I think it only has two. I have never plugged anything into them.

01:35:00   My best guess is that they don't want you to be able to plug in two of these adapters.

01:35:04   Nah, I would just reject that. I like the theory in the chat room that one is for power and one...

01:35:08   that you need two connectors to be able to power four rumbles

01:35:11   But who knows but why make them why make them different colors though? That's oh god. That's so hideous

01:35:16   Maybe one has to be in one port at one has to be in another. I don't know. I hope not that would be so

01:35:21   Amen, it's Nintendo. You don't we can't put anything past them. Well. I got it. I got a Nintendo credit

01:35:26   They are doing what they do best which is they're finding ways to make people buy large quantities of 20 and 30 dollar accessories

01:35:35   Yeah, well like I was posting on Twitter

01:35:37   I was looking for some control as if we were playing some GameCube games and the the analog stick eventually wears out of these things

01:35:43   if you use it long enough like it's loose and sloppy and

01:35:45   so I was looking for some new ones to buy and

01:35:49   you can still buy a white one which they made specially for the Wii with a longer cord and

01:35:54   What else can you buy?

01:35:56   I think I might have seen some black ones hanging around but they made them in a variety of colors

01:36:00   And if you want one of the fancy colors and you want new in box not used

01:36:04   It's extremely hard to find you can you know you can immediately find them for like $200 on eBay

01:36:09   You know new in the box platinum or spice

01:36:13   GameCube controllers or wavebirds similar the wireless version version of those things very expensive if you want them new like they're collectors items at this point

01:36:22   So them reissuing them with a Smash Brothers logo on them

01:36:24   I didn't want that one because I didn't want a Smash Brothers logo on top of the day

01:36:27   I and it was also black and boring so I bought a white one and then on eBay

01:36:30   I bought a silver one which is supposedly new in the box. We'll see if that turns out to be the case

01:36:35   Because it's eBay, but yeah, I would I would really like them to make a new controller

01:36:41   That's better than the GameCube controller, but so far. They have not done that

01:36:44   All right I

01:36:48   Feel better for having known how'd you feel like picking up a controller right now and playing all your favorite GameCube games?

01:36:54   All my favorite GameCube games. Yeah, well

01:36:57   I don't think I ever played any GameCube games,

01:36:59   but I did have random flashback to F-Zero

01:37:03   on the Super Nintendo recently, which I loved.

01:37:05   I miss that game.

01:37:07   - Yeah, that would be another thing.

01:37:08   So they could issue an adapter for NES and SNES controllers.

01:37:13   You can probably buy them online now anyway,

01:37:15   but they sell NES and SNES games

01:37:18   on the virtual console thing.

01:37:20   And yet they want you to play them

01:37:22   with these variety of remade controllers.

01:37:24   And so that's the case where you would want,

01:37:26   oh, it's a nostalgic game.

01:37:27   Obviously you're playing an 8-bit or 16-bit game.

01:37:29   You want the original controller

01:37:30   'cause the whole point is nostalgia.

01:37:32   Fine, but here I feel like

01:37:34   they should just make a better controller.