85: The Unexpected Hard Part


00:00:00   This is a vocabulary day.

00:00:01   These will, you'll be quizzed on these

00:00:03   at the end of the year.

00:00:04   (beeping)

00:00:06   - We got a lot of follow-up today, go figure.

00:00:08   - I'm shocked and awed that we have so much follow-up

00:00:12   for some reason. - And dismayed as well.

00:00:14   - And I, let me take a wild guess

00:00:16   and say that we're gonna spend the first 90 minutes

00:00:18   of the show talking about follow-up.

00:00:19   - No, it's not that long.

00:00:20   It's like, it's not even a page.

00:00:22   You'll see, it'll be fast.

00:00:23   You guys don't know how to measure follow-up.

00:00:24   You just see like more than a screen full text view.

00:00:26   Oh, lots of follow-up.

00:00:27   These are all two second items.

00:00:29   - All right, well, we should probably start

00:00:31   with the most important piece of follow-up that we have,

00:00:34   which is most of the internet coming to the defense

00:00:38   of the load-bearing finger.

00:00:40   - That's not even in the notes.

00:00:41   - It is.

00:00:42   - It's not at the top of the follow-up.

00:00:43   Anyway, go ahead.

00:00:44   - No, it's not.

00:00:45   It's way at the bottom, but it's really important to me,

00:00:47   so I thought I'd bring it to the top.

00:00:49   - Because you and I were proven right,

00:00:50   and John was proven wrong.

00:00:52   - Right about what, exactly?

00:00:54   - Well, you were outvoted, at least.

00:00:56   - You were outvoted.

00:00:57   - Outvoted about what, exactly?

00:00:58   about whether you should or should not use the load-bearing finger?

00:01:03   I think the results from people telling us that they use their pinky are inconclusive

00:01:07   as to whether people should or should not use their pinky. All we have shown is that

00:01:12   many people who emailed us do use their pinky, and that doesn't prove anything. Because for

00:01:19   all we know, there are many, many more people who don't use their pinky who didn't email

00:01:22   us. But anyway, the people who do use their pinky wanted to tell us that they did, and

00:01:26   So they did.

00:01:27   None of which has anything to do with whether you should use your pinky or not.

00:01:30   Or what the values inherent in using your pinky are.

00:01:34   Is it, what is it good for?

00:01:35   What is it bad for?

00:01:36   All I know is, I saw a lot of email feedback, of Twitter feedback, a lot of it.

00:01:44   And it was almost universally in support of the armament/less load-bearing finger method.

00:01:52   You can put yourself first.

00:01:53   You're so nice.

00:01:54   You talked about it.

00:01:55   It was your subject.

00:01:56   - It's alphabetical.

00:01:57   Anyway, yes, a lot of people do use their pinkies,

00:02:00   but I don't think that's material to our discussion,

00:02:03   which was about why you should or shouldn't use your pinky.

00:02:05   - Well, here's the thing.

00:02:06   The reason you should use your pinky

00:02:08   is because even when I reach

00:02:10   to the way far corner of the screen,

00:02:13   which when I'm holding the phone in my right hand

00:02:15   is the upper left-hand corner,

00:02:16   you know, the most important corner in iOS

00:02:18   because that's the back button.

00:02:20   - See, I would say ever since the back gesture

00:02:22   in iOS 7 or 6, whatever that was added, 7.

00:02:26   Ever since the back gesture became commonplace

00:02:28   and default behavior within a kind of navigation controller,

00:02:30   I would say that is now a lot less important

00:02:33   than it used to be.

00:02:34   - That's true.

00:02:35   - It better be with the 6 Plus,

00:02:36   'cause forget it, no one's reaching that with the 6 Plus

00:02:38   with the one hand.

00:02:39   - That's true.

00:02:40   But anyway, so the point is, when I reach for that,

00:02:43   I have to pull my fingers from the,

00:02:46   again, I'm holding the phone in my right hand,

00:02:48   I have to pull my fingers from the left hand edge

00:02:52   of the phone to behind the phone in order to give me the reach to go to the upper left,

00:02:57   but the load-bearing pinky still holds strong.

00:03:00   With your six, you mean?

00:03:01   Yes, that's correct.

00:03:02   With my six.

00:03:03   The load-bearing pinky holds strong, though, and keeps me secure.

00:03:07   It's not much of a load-bearing.

00:03:09   You keep calling it that as if the entire weight of the phone is—

00:03:12   No, it's just because it sounds funny.

00:03:14   Yeah.

00:03:15   Well, anyway.

00:03:16   Yeah, now, I've done more research with—well, a lot of people are sending videos and pictures

00:03:21   of them doing stuff or whatever. And I hadn't noticed this, but many people sent in the

00:03:24   video of the, uh, what was it? The old, uh, five or five S ad where Apple was trying to

00:03:29   defend the fact that they didn't have a really big screen phones back when they didn't have

00:03:32   really big screen phones. And it was that ad where they showed that, uh, the thumb of

00:03:37   this male model and the ad can reach all four corners of the screen. And they say something

00:03:42   about, Oh, it's just common sense. See, that's why we have whatever, what is the four inch

00:03:45   screen on the five? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, they were, this was their like excuse out of why

00:03:49   We don't have a big phone, but in everyone who was asking me

00:03:52   I can't understand how you're saying to hold the phone. I tried to hold that way. I can't reach anything

00:03:56   I just something like the link to the video because that ad and most of Apple's video literature shows

00:04:01   hands male adult male model hands

00:04:05   Holding the phone the way I was describing more or less and and I got and last year

00:04:09   I was talking about why Casey was holding the phone wrong

00:04:11   Not why you are holding the phone wrong because if your hand is too small you can't hold it my way like bottom line

00:04:15   Right, but Casey's hands are similar size to mine. That's why it was relevant

00:04:18   So a couple people asked about they're like oh my hands are too small if your hands are just smaller

00:04:22   You just can't do it

00:04:23   But anyway that ad shows essentially how I hold my phone and I do have one additional piece of information on the phone holding thing

00:04:29   I

00:04:30   after watching myself use the phone in both my right and left hands what I realized is that I

00:04:34   Use the pinky to move the phone up into typing position because typing you know I can type with that grip some people like I can't

00:04:41   Type by the grip. How do you do it? Well you can look in the Apple ad I can do it that person the Apple

00:04:45   I can do it. Maybe other people can't depending on how their thumb bends or whatever. That's fine

00:04:48   But when I want to do serious one-handed typing, I will hoist the phone up so it's higher,

00:04:52   so I'm coming more from the bottom. And that hoisting operation, depending on how I'm doing it,

00:04:56   frequently involves me using my pinky to push the phone upward. So I am also in the load-bearing

00:05:02   pinky group for brief moments of time when repositioning the phone.

00:05:06   Yeah, I guess that makes sense. The funny thing about it is, I feel like I've gotten,

00:05:11   and I think Marco as well, have gotten, we've gotten a lot of feedback over the course of ATP,

00:05:17   almost two years now, it's a year and a half now,

00:05:19   a lot of feedback about,

00:05:20   "Oh, you're wrong because John says so,"

00:05:23   or, "Oh, you're wrong because you don't agree with John."

00:05:26   And finally, my crowning moment

00:05:29   when the internet comes to my defense

00:05:32   was about how I hold my fricking iPhone.

00:05:34   - Well, I don't think that people say that wrong

00:05:36   because I say it.

00:05:37   They may find my argument more convincing than the other.

00:05:39   Anyway, that would be a lousy reason to say that.

00:05:41   But like, so I still contend that all the things I said

00:05:45   about the different hold techniques hold true for KC whose hands are similar size

00:05:49   to mine and that it is more secure not to hold the thing like it's a sheet

00:05:53   music in a music stand and what most people didn't understand is that though

00:05:57   the whole thing with my grip is if suddenly you know I was I got jostled

00:06:03   or knocked over or whatever and I immediately gripped with my hand say whoa

00:06:05   I'm just about to get knocked over I better hold on to my phone what would

00:06:08   happen is I would be pressing on the far long edge of the phone and pressing the

00:06:13   corner into my palm. That's essentially the grip. Even if you're moving your fingers around,

00:06:17   and that's different from the grip where if suddenly you were pressed, what you would end

00:06:21   up doing is pinching the phone like you're pinching like a Hershey's bar or something.

00:06:24   That's what you have with your fingers are on the back. Or if you're doing the pinky thing,

00:06:28   it's just a fewer number of fingers on the back. But you know, you got to do what you got to do,

00:06:31   depending on the size of your hand. The I was trying to come up with a universal theorem of

00:06:37   phone gripping this for like for explaining why, for why people hold it in different ways. And what

00:06:43   What I started with was from the extreme of like,

00:06:45   if you just put the phone on the table,

00:06:47   and then you can't put any fingers around it at all,

00:06:49   and you just take your thumb,

00:06:50   then you can reach anywhere on the screen,

00:06:52   'cause your thumb is just, it's freeform.

00:06:53   You're not holding it anywhere.

00:06:55   That's what you would have to do

00:06:58   if you had little tiny minuscule hands.

00:06:59   Like if you were trying to use a 25-inch iPad,

00:07:02   you would just put it flat on the table,

00:07:04   and if you were gonna use it with one hand,

00:07:05   and you wanted to use your thumb to do stuff,

00:07:07   you would just move it around like that.

00:07:10   As the size of your hand and the size of the phone

00:07:13   get closer together, like as the phone gets smaller

00:07:15   and the size of your hand gets bigger or whichever direction,

00:07:17   you start to be able to put more portions

00:07:19   of your four fingers behind or under the phone.

00:07:22   If your hand is just barely big enough,

00:07:24   maybe you can put like four fingers

00:07:26   or two fingers behind the phone,

00:07:27   but the whole rest of your hand needs to be out

00:07:29   so you can reach the upper left hand corner, right?

00:07:31   As your hand gets bigger and bigger and bigger,

00:07:32   you can slide more and more of those four fingers

00:07:34   behind the phone and still be able

00:07:36   to reach things comfortably.

00:07:37   When your hand reaches a certain size,

00:07:39   you can fit all of your four fingers

00:07:41   and a lot of your hand behind the phone

00:07:42   and nestle the corner of it into your palm.

00:07:44   And that's essentially the hand size I am.

00:07:46   And if you keep going up to the,

00:07:47   Chockenberry, Craig Hockenberry size,

00:07:51   then maybe, I don't know how,

00:07:52   maybe he can fit like the entire,

00:07:54   and maybe he can fit all four of his fingers

00:07:55   in front of the phone and still be able

00:07:56   to reach all the corners with his thumb.

00:07:58   I don't know how big his hands are,

00:07:59   but that's essentially the continuum

00:08:00   that we could probably do some sort of 3D animation

00:08:03   to show the different various grips that are possible.

00:08:06   but I still strongly endorse nestling the corner of the phone into your palm so that you can grip it and

00:08:12   Press it in that direction with all four of your fingers

00:08:14   If you can reach all the corners of your phone with your thumb that way and if you can type comfortably

00:08:18   I can type comfortably that way I can hit the home button

00:08:21   But like I said when I want to do more serious long typing

00:08:24   I will hoist the thing up with my pinky pinky goes back and then I type in that position. I

00:08:29   Guess that's fair. I

00:08:31   To sort of make a subject change, I should note that another week on with having the

00:08:36   6, I definitely like it and I like having a screen that big, but I'm picking up one

00:08:43   of our 5S's and it feels to me anyway so much more comfortable in my hand.

00:08:49   I like the feel of it so much more, although I will tell you that this screen looks comically

00:08:54   small.

00:08:55   Furthermore, I think I tweeted about this, but we use 3GS to run a playlist for when

00:09:02   we're at a tailgate before a football game.

00:09:05   And that thing is like positively microscopic compared to the 6.

00:09:11   And so it's tough because on the software side, I like the big screen quite a lot, but

00:09:16   physically, and I think this comes back to me being a one-handed user a lot of the time,

00:09:22   I just love the feel, the size of the 5S

00:09:25   so much more than the 6.

00:09:27   And I'm not sure which one is more important to me yet.

00:09:30   So ask me again in six months.

00:09:32   - Yeah, I think when you,

00:09:33   I still don't have anything six size yet.

00:09:35   I would imagine that maybe it will never turn around for you

00:09:40   like in terms of the hand holding,

00:09:41   but it's kind of like now when you pick up like a 3GS

00:09:44   and you're just like, this is the screen,

00:09:45   it's like a postage stamp.

00:09:46   Even though it's not that much shorter than the 5,

00:09:48   it's the same width and it's just a little tiny bit shorter,

00:09:51   but it just feels ridiculous.

00:09:53   I think once you get used to the screen,

00:09:55   you'd be like, well, this 6 still feels too big

00:09:57   for however I use my phone,

00:09:58   but I don't wanna go back to looking through

00:10:00   that tiny little porthole into the world of iOS.

00:10:03   - I think you're right.

00:10:03   Now, Marco, did you have your 6 Plus

00:10:05   at the time we recorded last week?

00:10:07   - Yes, but I had only had it for a few hours at that point.

00:10:09   - That's right, that's right.

00:10:10   Are you using it full-time by chance or no?

00:10:12   - Not at the moment.

00:10:13   For whatever reason, I don't know why I decided not to.

00:10:17   You know what I might do?

00:10:19   Maybe next week I'm going to Montreal

00:10:22   for the Singleton conference.

00:10:24   Maybe I'll use it like that whole weekend.

00:10:25   Like I'll just bring that one and see how that goes.

00:10:28   Because I do want to spend some time

00:10:29   using it as my primary phone.

00:10:31   That's one of the reasons I got it this way.

00:10:33   I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

00:10:34   It's been a crazy development week for me.

00:10:35   I didn't want to make any changes.

00:10:37   - That's fair.

00:10:38   But initial impressions, anything different

00:10:39   since we last spoke?

00:10:40   - I really haven't had a chance to use it

00:10:42   much more than that.

00:10:42   I have some opinions on the size classness of it,

00:10:46   the way Apple does iPad style width

00:10:51   when you hold it in landscape,

00:10:54   and it tells the apps basically

00:10:56   to use an iPad layout in landscape.

00:10:58   I've been battling that all week

00:11:00   with developing Overcast for it,

00:11:02   and I question whether that's a good idea

00:11:05   to have it do that,

00:11:08   and actually for Overcast 1.1,

00:11:10   the big update I'm working on

00:11:11   to make it all adaptive and universal and everything,

00:11:14   For that, I am disabling that behavior.

00:11:17   So that on the 6 Plus, it's just gonna show

00:11:20   the iPhone interface bigger in landscape.

00:11:22   - I wondered when they were talking about the size classes,

00:11:25   you know, at WWC, we all knew bigger things were coming.

00:11:27   I just assumed they would add a bunch of new enums

00:11:29   or whatever the hell they are for different size classes

00:11:31   when the different things came out.

00:11:32   But from what I understand, they just kept the same ones.

00:11:34   It's like, you know, the width in portrait mode

00:11:38   of any of their phones is all like compact or whatever.

00:11:41   Even though the difference in size

00:11:43   between the width of a 5s and the width of a 6 plus is huge,

00:11:46   but they're both the same.

00:11:47   They're all the same size class.

00:11:48   So it seems like they could throw in a few more size class

00:11:52   values in there and solve some of these.

00:11:54   Yeah, you know, it's a tough balance to walk.

00:11:56   So the way it is right now-- so you're right.

00:11:58   Basically, there is just two values

00:12:01   for each of horizontal and vertical, regular and compact.

00:12:04   And of course, there might be a future large value.

00:12:07   Maybe that's what the iPad Pro, if that thing is real,

00:12:10   will have.

00:12:11   but right now there's regular and compact.

00:12:13   And a phone is regular horizontal,

00:12:17   or regular vertical, compact horizontal.

00:12:19   If you rotate it to vertical mode,

00:12:22   it's compact in both dimensions,

00:12:24   which kinda doesn't make sense,

00:12:25   but if you think about it in practice,

00:12:27   that actually does work very well.

00:12:29   And then iPads are regular instead of compact

00:12:32   in both dimensions, no matter what orientation they're in.

00:12:34   And the weird thing is that the iPhone 6 Plus,

00:12:37   and only the iPhone 6 Plus,

00:12:39   is regular horizontal, compact vertical

00:12:41   when it's in landscape.

00:12:43   So it's a weird combination that,

00:12:46   you know, designing for a landscape iPhone in general

00:12:51   is very hard because, you know, in most cases

00:12:55   if you have like a navigation bar or something,

00:12:56   you still have the bars taking up a lot of horizontal space

00:12:59   and they get smaller, but it's still,

00:13:01   I mean vertical space rather,

00:13:02   they get smaller but it's still,

00:13:04   because you're then rotating the screen

00:13:07   and the bar's still going across the new top,

00:13:09   you're wasting a lot more screen real estate on those bars.

00:13:12   - Why are you doing a landscape iPhone,

00:13:14   why are you making it rotatable on phones, overcast, I mean?

00:13:18   - That's a good question.

00:13:19   So to date, the app that's in the store now does not rotate.

00:13:22   It's always portrait only.

00:13:24   Most people, I think, will wanna keep it that way.

00:13:26   And enough, myself included most of the time,

00:13:29   enough people such that I need to probably

00:13:32   add a rotation lock setting,

00:13:34   because having an app accidentally rotate

00:13:36   when you don't want it to on your iPhone is annoying.

00:13:39   But Apple is clearly pushing us towards universal apps.

00:13:43   An app that has to work on any sized iPhone

00:13:45   and any sized iPad and be able to transition

00:13:49   between those sizes while it's running on the same device.

00:13:53   Now we saw a couple of months ago,

00:13:55   our friend Steven Trout and Smith on Twitter,

00:14:00   he posted a video, I'm pretty sure it was him,

00:14:02   he posted a video, he had hacked the iPhone 8 simulator

00:14:06   or iOS 8 simulator, while it was running an iPad mode,

00:14:09   he had enabled some kind of undocumented hidden mode

00:14:13   that basically had resizable apps.

00:14:16   An app would run on the iPad in full screen normally,

00:14:19   and then by toggling these modes,

00:14:21   it would run at 2/3 width and 1/3 width.

00:14:25   And at 2/3 width, it just looks like a smaller iPad app.

00:14:28   At 1/3 width, it looked like a tall, skinny iPhone app.

00:14:32   It was very clear, Apple had built this functionality in,

00:14:35   And whether it will ship this fall, next week,

00:14:38   or whenever this iPad event will happen,

00:14:41   whether this will ship anytime soon, I don't know.

00:14:44   But the functionality is there.

00:14:46   I have to imagine, if you read the tea leaves,

00:14:48   like reading the tea leaves in WWDC sessions

00:14:52   and the new APIs in iOS 8, it was very clear

00:14:55   that they were gonna do different sized devices.

00:14:58   I think if you read the tea leaves a little bit further,

00:14:59   it's very clear that this is the way they plan to go

00:15:02   also in the case of resizable apps.

00:15:04   Like they're gonna do this, I bet.

00:15:06   And I don't know if it's gonna be this fall.

00:15:08   Maybe it might get delayed until a later version of iOS,

00:15:12   but I'm pretty sure that's one of the things

00:15:14   they plan to do to make the iPad cooler,

00:15:16   is to have side-by-side apps

00:15:18   with either full width, two thirds, or one third.

00:15:21   I would imagine your customers,

00:15:22   if you make an app that runs on the iPad,

00:15:24   I would imagine your customers are going to be pretty annoyed

00:15:27   if they can side-by-side tile most of their apps,

00:15:31   but not your app, because it doesn't support these modes.

00:15:34   It's important, I think, for developers

00:15:36   to be considering this very strongly right now,

00:15:38   that if you have an app that runs on the iPad at all,

00:15:42   you should probably make your app universal with iPhone,

00:15:45   and you should probably be doing this adaptive UI migration,

00:15:49   using something like a split view

00:15:50   to have it automatically collapse,

00:15:51   or doing your own thing to automatically collapse it.

00:15:54   You need to be doing this, because it's so obvious

00:15:59   that this has a very good chance of coming very soon in iOS.

00:16:02   And again, like your customers, if most apps do this

00:16:06   and yours doesn't, your customers are gonna tell you that.

00:16:10   Apple does not seem to care about the difference

00:16:13   between your business model, if you have iPhone only

00:16:18   and iPad only as two separate paid apps,

00:16:21   Apple does not care about that.

00:16:22   They've been very clearly pushing for a long time

00:16:25   into universal apps.

00:16:27   And I think, if you have an app that only runs on the iPad

00:16:31   because it just needs the space, for whatever reason,

00:16:33   for UI or whatever, then I think you're okay.

00:16:36   You can make do.

00:16:38   But for many apps that can run on iPhone or iPad

00:16:41   and they can resize to any value, anything,

00:16:43   I think there's been a lot of pressure from our community,

00:16:46   like the Mac nerd community,

00:16:49   there's been a lot of pressure in the past

00:16:50   to have these perfectly beautifully handcrafted interfaces

00:16:53   for each different device that you run on.

00:16:55   We've been seeing that, the writing on the wall for that

00:17:00   for a while now, iOS 7's redesign helped a lot.

00:17:03   Just like most of those perfectly handcrafted

00:17:06   custom interfaces, most of the design patterns of those

00:17:09   looked out of date with iOS 7.

00:17:11   So making more flexible layouts already

00:17:13   is getting in fashion.

00:17:14   But I think we're seeing a combination

00:17:17   of a bunch of effects happen to really kill

00:17:20   those unique interfaces for iPads.

00:17:23   There's very likely upcoming resizable apps thing

00:17:25   where if your app does anything beyond

00:17:28   one of the basic custom structures,

00:17:30   it's gonna be a pain.

00:17:31   It's gonna be hard to maintain.

00:17:33   We also have generally sagging iPad sales.

00:17:37   The iPad is no longer the powerhouse platform

00:17:40   to make money on for developers that it once was,

00:17:42   however briefly that was.

00:17:43   It is no longer that thing.

00:17:46   I think the iPad now is worth supporting,

00:17:50   but it might not necessarily be worth

00:17:52   a whole bunch of custom development time.

00:17:54   And I forget the third thing,

00:17:57   But basically, I think it's gonna be very important

00:18:02   that developers be a little easier on yourself

00:18:06   with whether you need to make the decision

00:18:09   of going universal or not, just do it.

00:18:11   Apple is making that decision for you effectively.

00:18:13   You have to be universal.

00:18:15   And secondly, I think it is really not worth

00:18:18   spending a whole lot of time making

00:18:20   a extremely custom iPad interface

00:18:23   if something simpler would suffice.

00:18:26   But anyway, Jon, to answer your actual question of,

00:18:29   why do I need to support rotation on the iPhone?

00:18:32   The small reason is that some customers have asked for that.

00:18:38   A lot of people say, and there's some good reasons,

00:18:40   a lot of people say that they want to put,

00:18:43   that they keep their phone in a mount in their car

00:18:45   that keeps it horizontal for some reason.

00:18:47   I don't know why a mount would do that.

00:18:49   - For maps maybe, you know,

00:18:50   you like the little flying through Apple Maps thing.

00:18:53   - I guess, but think of so many,

00:18:54   like the phone app doesn't rotate as far as I know.

00:18:57   Like there's a lot of other apps on phones

00:18:58   that don't rotate, so I don't know.

00:19:00   A lot of people ask for that.

00:19:02   The bigger reason why is because, you know,

00:19:05   Apple is clearly pushing in this direction

00:19:07   of your apps need to be adaptive,

00:19:09   they need to be resizable, they need to be rotatable.

00:19:12   They're pushing in this direction,

00:19:14   and I think it's just easier if I can have an app

00:19:18   that works with any combination of these size classes,

00:19:20   with any combination, or any weird screen size

00:19:24   might come up with that, that the app will look reasonable, it won't, it won't, like the interface

00:19:28   won't break, things will be usable, it might not look amazing, but it will work. And I think

00:19:35   supporting every rotation is is just one part of that. It's a required part of that, I think. Also,

00:19:40   you know, on the iPad, you kind of have to and so once you build that, it's pretty easy to build the

00:19:44   other one. But so you're going to have an in application rotation lock separate from the system

00:19:50   them on though? I'm probably gonna try launching without one and and see how

00:19:55   big of an issue it is because the whole idea of adding an individual preference

00:20:01   in my app so that my app doesn't rotate. Yeah, it could be a lot of bug reports

00:20:04   from that. Yeah, it's tricky to implement I think in the code. I don't know, I

00:20:08   haven't looked yet how to do it now because every time Apple rewrites

00:20:12   the way apps handle rotation, which so far has happened three times, every time

00:20:17   they do that, the way you do this changes, and how possible it is to do it without weird

00:20:22   bugs and side effects changes. So I'll have to see. If it's some kind of bool callback

00:20:28   that I can return no from, then that's easy. But if it's something else, then we'll

00:20:33   see. I think it's just very clear that if you don't adapt to this world, it's going

00:20:38   to be difficult for you. And Brent Simmons talked a few months back about developer efficiency.

00:20:44   been hearing all these stories about how developers like me, people who make iOS apps and try

00:20:51   to sell them in the store, are having a harder and harder time making good money from that

00:20:55   and harder and harder time justifying further development.

00:20:58   The reality is, and we've seen this from many people, the reality is if you're an independent

00:21:02   developer, chances are you're going to need multiple sources of income and chances are

00:21:08   your apps are going to have to be cheaper and easier to develop. You can't afford to

00:21:12   to be able to spend a year and a half

00:21:15   making a custom iPad interface for your app anymore.

00:21:18   That's no longer economically responsible

00:21:21   for most developers to do if you need to make money from it.

00:21:24   If it's a hobby to do on the side, fine,

00:21:26   you can do whatever you want, but if you're trying

00:21:28   to make money from an app, you really can't reasonably

00:21:32   spend a whole lot of time on custom stuff like that.

00:21:34   So one of my design goals for Overcast

00:21:37   is not only to have things work okay and look okay,

00:21:42   it's also to use as little code as possible in the UI.

00:21:46   Like as few custom UI hacks as I can.

00:21:49   Because with Instapaper, I got tied up

00:21:51   with all sorts of crazy UI hacks to try to customize things

00:21:56   to work exactly as I wanted them to,

00:21:58   that was slightly different from the way

00:22:00   the system defaults worked.

00:22:01   Or to mimic something that other Apple apps did

00:22:06   that was not exposed publicly in the API.

00:22:08   or to do things that weren't possible yet manually.

00:22:12   So things like pagination or when I wrote the grid view

00:22:16   before there was a collection view API, stuff like that.

00:22:20   And almost every iOS developer has some kind of story

00:22:22   where they're like, oh, well, we were having this problem,

00:22:24   so we had to rewrite UI Navigation Controller.

00:22:26   It's like, oh, no, you've already lost.

00:22:30   Like if any part of your development story includes

00:22:34   we had to rewrite UI TableView Controller,

00:22:36   UI Navigation Controller,

00:22:38   any of these major iOS things that are really hard to get right if you do it yourself

00:22:42   chances are your priorities are

00:22:46   can use improvement. I have the luxury of being

00:22:50   one person and being both the designer and the developer of this app

00:22:54   I can edit the design if the implementation of it is going to

00:22:58   suck for development. I can say you know what

00:23:02   the reason why the tool bar is

00:23:06   why the mini player is toolbar size is because it's a toolbar.

00:23:09   Because it's easier to implement that way and I have to do less code.

00:23:12   The reason why the mini player does not go away

00:23:16   when there's nothing to play and it just says something like "Sync Complete"

00:23:19   is because you can't dynamically hide and show that reliably

00:23:23   without weird side effects. So it's always there. Period.

00:23:27   So I do things like this because

00:23:30   I've seen what happens when you don't.

00:23:33   So what happened with Instapaper was the code got so big and bloated because I was doing all these crazy hacks with the view hierarchy and custom animations and all this stuff to get things to look and work exactly right.

00:23:48   It became not only very brittle but just extremely cumbersome to maintain and very costly to implement in the first place.

00:23:55   It took so much time and effort to do all that stuff that I could have been spending on other features or improvements to the website or whatever else.

00:24:02   So one of my main goals for Overcats

00:24:04   has been just avoid those big hacks.

00:24:05   Like if I can't do something in a good reliable way

00:24:08   with the official APIs, usually I just don't do it.

00:24:12   And I'm keeping the code very simple.

00:24:14   So any kind of custom handling of do this on this one device

00:24:19   or do this when the screen size is less than this value,

00:24:22   that all adds a lot of that complexity

00:24:25   that I really would rather avoid.

00:24:26   And I think overall that will serve me better.

00:24:28   And I think overall, if more developers did that,

00:24:31   that would serve them better.

00:24:32   - Do you think that's like a failing of the API

00:24:34   and that like there's a prescribed way to do things

00:24:36   with a set of controllers that's sort of pre-made for you

00:24:38   with a bunch of callbacks that you can override

00:24:41   and things that you can set,

00:24:42   but if your needs fall outside the bounds of that,

00:24:44   for example, your need to say,

00:24:45   well, if you know, I would like to have a thing

00:24:47   that's down there that's like a toolbar,

00:24:48   maybe it won't be exactly the same size

00:24:50   and sometimes I wanna hide it.

00:24:51   And it's like, well, now you,

00:24:53   you know, that's the whole thing with frameworks.

00:24:55   Like they constrain you to some degree

00:24:57   in that there's a set of things

00:25:00   that they're trying to lead you towards,

00:25:02   but as you diverge from them,

00:25:03   you would hope that the framework would work with you

00:25:05   and not say, well, now you're starting to do something

00:25:07   that violates too many assumptions

00:25:09   of this little particular piece of code

00:25:12   that we've given you here.

00:25:13   And therefore, your only option now

00:25:15   is to throw that all away and do it all custom,

00:25:17   or like you said, rewrite the thing

00:25:18   by subclassing everything,

00:25:19   and then you're basically doing your own thing anyway.

00:25:22   Ideally, a framework would have a smoother path

00:25:26   between I just want to tweak one thing,

00:25:28   this thing you've given me does exactly what I want,

00:25:30   but I want to tweak things one, two, and three,

00:25:32   or like all the way down to, at this point,

00:25:36   all this behavior is my own,

00:25:39   and you want a smooth gradient between them.

00:25:41   You don't want to hit this point where you're like,

00:25:42   okay, I can tweak, I can tweak, I can tweak,

00:25:43   and then you find out you're just tweaking so much

00:25:45   that now you're just creating a monster

00:25:47   and it's unmaintainable and you can't figure it out

00:25:48   and the next version breaks all your crap.

00:25:50   And it's like, you would like that slope.

00:25:54   The ideal framework would never paint you into that corner.

00:25:56   You would smoothly move from changing one little property

00:26:00   on a canned class to having, to defining

00:26:03   all of the behavior yourself, you know?

00:26:05   - Ideally, yeah.

00:26:06   I mean, and I really have to give UIKit credit.

00:26:10   It has come a long way.

00:26:12   Like, many of those hacks that I did with Instapaper

00:26:15   would no longer be necessary.

00:26:16   I would even say probably most of them.

00:26:18   - Yeah, Apple's moving along that path.

00:26:19   Like, along the path to, I mean, tint color

00:26:22   and stuff like that, things that used to just, you know,

00:26:24   that's with the next version, like, oh, all those things

00:26:26   you were doing hacks for you don't need and it's just like

00:26:28   You keep it. How long do you continue that?

00:26:30   Do they ever get to the point where there actually is a smooth path and there's never that jump over the canyon where oh?

00:26:36   You've hacked this thing to bits and now you're just you know you are over the line like it

00:26:40   Seems like you know if you want to use one of our classes and subclass it

00:26:44   You always get if you're gonna start overriding things forever and ever eventually you get to the point where it's where you're actually making your

00:26:51   Life harder would have been easier if you just started from scratch because then you would have understood all the pieces

00:26:55   and you wouldn't be constantly fighting against

00:26:57   the behavior you don't want, you know?

00:26:59   - Oh yeah, I mean, I think, you know,

00:27:02   we've seen Apple take huge strides in that regard

00:27:05   to prevent people from having to rewrite everything,

00:27:07   rewrite things from scratch, and you know,

00:27:09   especially since, when did they introduce,

00:27:12   was it iOS 6 that brought in UI appearance, or was it iOS 5?

00:27:16   Either way, the appearance proxy stuff has been amazing.

00:27:20   iOS 8 makes a lot of it even better

00:27:22   with some of the new presentation controller stuff,

00:27:24   and this new adaptive split view

00:27:27   and all this stuff they're doing,

00:27:29   they are adding in those hooks.

00:27:31   Every iOS release adds more of those

00:27:36   new delegate methods that you can override,

00:27:38   new customizations you can set.

00:27:40   It removes more and more reasons

00:27:42   that you previously might have had

00:27:44   to subclass or replace something.

00:27:46   I think we're at a point now

00:27:48   where both the APIs have gotten really good

00:27:51   so that the need for massive time sync projects

00:27:56   of we need to rewrite UITableView, things like that,

00:27:58   the need for those has gotten so much lower

00:28:01   and lower over time.

00:28:02   And at the same time that the profitability

00:28:06   of handcrafted, well-made iOS apps

00:28:08   has also gone down dramatically.

00:28:10   That I think it's time to realize,

00:28:13   yeah, all those times where you said you should

00:28:16   rewrite UITableViewController, probably not.

00:28:19   Now granted, I'm a total hypocrite with this

00:28:21   because I rewrote core audio.

00:28:22   I mean, like this, like I rewrote AV player basically.

00:28:26   - Well, at least you were getting value out of that.

00:28:28   I always think of like Brent being a,

00:28:30   or you know, that whole crew over there

00:28:32   being somewhat prisoner to their own idiosyncrasies

00:28:36   in that a lot of the hacks Brent seemed like he was doing

00:28:38   were because they wanted a particular appearance

00:28:41   or transition effect and they could get the same job done.

00:28:45   It just wouldn't look the way they want it to look exactly.

00:28:47   And you know, probably the number of people

00:28:51   who are going to notice the difference between the incredible amount of work they had to

00:28:54   do to make some transition just so and the, what they considered the unacceptable version,

00:28:59   that number of people would be very small.

00:29:00   Whereas you at least did your core audio stuff because you, it's like a headline feature

00:29:03   of your application, you can put it on a bullet point on the description, you can describe

00:29:07   it to people and they see value in it, whereas if Brent tried to explain, and again I don't

00:29:10   know if these details are right so sorry Brent if I'm getting them wrong, if you tried to

00:29:13   explain, see how this cross fades into that and that doesn't start out as white but fades

00:29:17   in behind it?

00:29:18   effect was really hard to get and here's what I had to do to get it and they'd be like huh what

00:29:22   you know like they don't care so you're not really the things that you were serving by doing your

00:29:28   hustle implementation were things that make sense in like a business plan whereas some people just

00:29:33   can't abide by I mean we'll get to this if we get to the if we can ever get to the second item in

00:29:38   the follow-up some people just can't just can't abide by uh small aesthetic things that most

00:29:43   most people don't notice.

00:29:45   - Yeah, and to be fair, I think that is part

00:29:48   of their business plan.

00:29:49   Like when you have an app like Vesper,

00:29:51   the whole selling point is, it's basically a note-taking app

00:29:56   but they've done it in this extremely custom way

00:30:00   where everything is extremely well thought out

00:30:03   and well designed and well implemented and everything.

00:30:05   That is their selling point to a large degree

00:30:08   because there are so many other note-taking apps out there.

00:30:12   It's a less compelling selling point

00:30:14   than what you can list in your bullet points for.

00:30:16   Like I had to do this Core Audio stuff

00:30:17   because this feature, you know, Smart Speed,

00:30:19   everyone can understand it, it's a good feature,

00:30:21   you press a button, like, whereas trying to explain

00:30:24   to somebody, no yeah, it takes notes,

00:30:26   but let me tell you exactly how beautiful

00:30:28   and perfect this UI is.

00:30:29   And you're right, that is their value proposition.

00:30:31   I just think it's a more narrow one than yours.

00:30:34   - Yeah, and I think I would say too,

00:30:36   like a lot of that works because of who they are

00:30:39   in the audience they have.

00:30:40   I think one of the problems like Jarrett Sinclair

00:30:42   with Unread, which actually I started using it this week

00:30:44   'cause Reader, well neither of them are updated yet,

00:30:47   but I started trying Unread this week.

00:30:48   And actually like, I actually like it.

00:30:50   I'm not quite as fast in it as I was with Reader yet,

00:30:54   and I'm not sure if I'll get there, I probably will.

00:30:56   I think Unread was a victim of many problems

00:31:01   and shortcomings that happened to it,

00:31:03   but also bad defaults.

00:31:05   Like there were some settings I didn't even know existed

00:31:08   and I went digging and I've now customized it to be,

00:31:10   in my opinion, much better fit for me.

00:31:13   So anyway, if you gave Unread a very quick look before

00:31:17   and didn't give it much thought,

00:31:20   poke around in the settings

00:31:21   and you might be able to set it up the way you like.

00:31:23   Anyway, Unread was a similar kind of thing.

00:31:25   It's like a fairly simple UI with lots of custom work

00:31:30   to have this highly polished custom look and feel.

00:31:35   And it got a lot of good reviews and everything,

00:31:38   but it didn't sell that well.

00:31:41   And I think that that kind of shows,

00:31:43   like it is, that can be a selling point,

00:31:46   and for Vesper it is, and I don't know how well

00:31:48   Vesper sells, but I think it's safe to say

00:31:51   it hasn't taken over the world yet.

00:31:53   And I think it's, you know, you can look at that

00:31:56   as a selling point, that like handcraftedness

00:31:58   and design and implementation, like the combination

00:32:01   of all those tiny details as a selling point.

00:32:04   It's very hard to sell people on that.

00:32:06   That's why I'm advising, if you have an iPad app,

00:32:10   I'm telling you, that kind of stuff

00:32:12   is probably not worth doing.

00:32:13   There are certain areas where that will make sense.

00:32:15   The App Store three years ago or more, four years ago,

00:32:19   that would have made more sense

00:32:21   because you could make more money off of that crowd.

00:32:23   You could make more money off of that as a selling feature.

00:32:25   These days, it's just so much harder.

00:32:27   You have to work so much leaner.

00:32:30   I don't think it's a good trade-off for most people.

00:32:33   - Well, here's the flip side to that.

00:32:34   Flipside is the easy flipside that you used to hear more years ago than you do now, which

00:32:39   is everyone involved here is, to some extent, probably more in the case of Esper, making

00:32:46   the application that they want to make that expresses their values.

00:32:49   They're making the note-taking application that they want to use.

00:32:53   So they're expressing their values through their work.

00:32:55   The same way when you blog, you're blogging the type of thing that you think you might

00:32:58   want to read.

00:32:59   You're making the app that you want to make.

00:33:00   It's like, I want a note-taking app that's

00:33:02   beautiful in all these ways.

00:33:04   And so this is the app that I'm going to make.

00:33:06   And that business model of expressing yourself

00:33:10   through your work is something--

00:33:14   if you want to talk about like Daring Fireball, the website,

00:33:16   it's the same thing.

00:33:17   It's expressing yourself through your work.

00:33:19   And it's satisfying to do that.

00:33:21   And if you're lucky enough that the things you want to express

00:33:23   resonate with other people, then you can get an audience for it.

00:33:25   And you, to some degree, are doing that with the audio

00:33:27   quality, because you, with all your crazy headphones

00:33:29   and your amplifiers and everything care about audio quality.

00:33:31   So even though it also is explainable in a business plan,

00:33:35   you care about audio.

00:33:36   And so it makes sense that you express those values

00:33:39   by spending all this time,

00:33:39   you started the podcast application as a prototype,

00:33:42   you know, audio engine.

00:33:43   That's where you began the whole thing.

00:33:44   You're not just going to accept the system.

00:33:46   Yeah, and I call it, make a system call and it plays audio.

00:33:49   You know, you dug into that part of it.

00:33:51   And so I think that is also an expression of yourself.

00:33:54   You obviously care more about that than you do care about.

00:33:57   I really wish the mini player could be seven points higher,

00:34:02   so I'm going to write an entirely custom control for it,

00:34:05   because otherwise it has to be toolbar height.

00:34:09   - I think maybe an important distinction to make here is,

00:34:13   I've said before when talking about Overcast,

00:34:17   even when talking about Instapaper originally,

00:34:19   I've said before that a good recipe for an app

00:34:23   is to do one really hard thing,

00:34:25   and everything else do it the easy way.

00:34:28   So like one really hard thing and a bunch of easy things.

00:34:30   And with Instant Paper that really hard thing

00:34:33   was probably the text parser or things like that.

00:34:36   Do a very small number of very hard things

00:34:38   and then everything else do it the easy way.

00:34:41   And with Overcast, clearly the audio engine is the hard part.

00:34:44   - Well, and the downloader.

00:34:46   No.

00:34:47   - Oh, the downloader.

00:34:48   - Zing.

00:34:48   - I gotta rewrite it again.

00:34:49   - It's the unexpected hard part.

00:34:50   - I know, I, oh, I hate the downloader so much.

00:34:54   No, I actually spent three hours today

00:34:56   figuring out how to pop up an action menu

00:34:59   when you long tap a link in a web view.

00:35:01   And I did it, and I even published the code,

00:35:03   and it's in FC Utilities on GitHub,

00:35:05   but oh my god, that was, ugh.

00:35:08   Anyway. (laughs)

00:35:11   And that might be an example of things

00:35:12   not to spend your time on, but what I'm saying is,

00:35:16   you know, with Overcast, the hard part

00:35:17   that I invested tons of time in was the audio engine,

00:35:20   because that gave me marketable features

00:35:24   that I wouldn't have had otherwise

00:35:26   that it's easy to advertise,

00:35:28   it's the kind of feature that people will talk about

00:35:30   and that will get more people to download the app.

00:35:32   It's the kind of feature that will set you apart

00:35:33   from competitors for at least a little while

00:35:35   and that has clear direct selling value.

00:35:40   Whereas if you do a bunch of those hard things in the UI

00:35:44   or even one giant hard thing in the UI,

00:35:47   you're very unlikely to see that kind of return from it.

00:35:50   Like it's so much easier to get that kind of return.

00:35:52   If you're gonna do one or two hard things

00:35:54   and a bunch of easy things,

00:35:57   make sure those hard things are things

00:35:59   that will be result in marketable improvements for your app.

00:36:02   - But you do care about audio though.

00:36:03   Like I mean all the things that,

00:36:05   even just speeding up and slowing down,

00:36:07   if you just use whatever a lot of the other podcast apps do

00:36:09   it like skips around and just kind of stutters

00:36:11   and it doesn't sound good.

00:36:12   Like you care about audio.

00:36:13   I don't say that's the main reason

00:36:15   and you could channel that personal value

00:36:19   into, oh well also there are these much more rational reasons for doing it, but it helps that

00:36:24   it's something that you care about. There are plenty of other things that might also be marketable

00:36:27   features that you care less about, or even just making the app that you want. Like think about

00:36:32   all the people who want like much more sophisticated storage management, but that doesn't push your

00:36:36   buttons, so that's not the application you made, even though it might be just as marketable as,

00:36:41   you know, playback speed. Yeah, that's true, and for a lot of people that is.

00:36:45   Yeah, so anyway, the expression of your personal values within the application is sort of this

00:36:52   silly like follow your passion, whatever type thing. But that can work. And the thing you can

00:36:57   take home from that is don't make an application that you don't like that doesn't express any of

00:37:03   your values just because you think that's what the public wants. Because at least if you fail making

00:37:07   an application that expresses some of your values and whatever you picked for the hard part,

00:37:11   at least then it's like, well, it was like more like a noble endeavor. Whereas if you make an

00:37:15   an application that you wouldn't even want to use and nobody buys it I think

00:37:17   that's a worse outcome. That's true. Alright now that we are like 40 minutes

00:37:23   in let me give our first sponsor read in case you know no one's heard me talk

00:37:27   enough in the last 30 minutes. Our first sponsor this week is our return sponsor

00:37:32   it is Casper. Casper is an online retailer of premium mattresses for a

00:37:37   fraction of the price. Now Casey you actually have a Casper mattress and I

00:37:41   got a chance to see this when I was there I was I was pretty impressed with

00:37:44   the quality. What do you think of it?

00:37:46   - It is very nice.

00:37:47   We've slept on it once or twice

00:37:50   because we got it for a spare bed

00:37:52   that really needed a mattress.

00:37:54   And it's really, really nice.

00:37:56   The thing I like about it is it has,

00:37:59   it has like that kind of memory foam topper,

00:38:02   which I'm sure you'll tell us about in a moment,

00:38:03   but I'm not usually a fan of memory foam

00:38:06   and it's kind of like this,

00:38:08   I don't wanna use the word hybrid,

00:38:09   but I can't think of a better one.

00:38:11   - Well, they use the word hybrid.

00:38:13   It is a hybrid mattress that combines premium latex foam

00:38:16   with memory foam.

00:38:17   - See, perfect, I couldn't have planned that better.

00:38:19   So as a not memory foam kind of guy,

00:38:22   that was the perfect happy medium

00:38:24   between just a straight up mattress

00:38:26   and having that little bit of extra cushion on top.

00:38:28   It's delightful.

00:38:30   - Yeah, they call it just the right sink

00:38:32   and just the right bounce.

00:38:33   - Exactly.

00:38:34   - Latex foam and memory foam come together

00:38:36   for better nights and brighter days.

00:38:38   Yeah, I was really impressed by it.

00:38:41   It felt really cool and I like memory foam,

00:38:45   so that actually means a lot that I was impressed by this.

00:38:48   I really liked it a lot.

00:38:50   Anyway, regularly mattresses can cost well over 1500 bucks.

00:38:54   If you've ever bought a mattress, like as an adult,

00:38:56   and bought like a real good mattress,

00:38:59   you're lucky to come out under 1500 bucks.

00:39:01   You pretty much can't.

00:39:03   Casper is really affordable.

00:39:06   It's $500 for a twin, 750 for full,

00:39:10   850 for Queen, 950 for King.

00:39:13   These prices, I mean, I would say,

00:39:15   for the quality they give,

00:39:16   I would say that's roughly half the price

00:39:17   of what you pay with most other people,

00:39:19   or maybe even less than half.

00:39:21   Those are really good prices.

00:39:24   The cool thing is, you buy these mattresses online,

00:39:26   and you might think it's kind of weird

00:39:30   to buy a mattress online.

00:39:31   Like when I was first asked about

00:39:34   whether we wanted to take this spot,

00:39:35   I was like, are you sure?

00:39:36   A mattress company online, really?

00:39:38   But it turns out they're really good,

00:39:40   and they ship it to you in this relatively small box,

00:39:44   kind of like crushed up, and then you open it up

00:39:47   and it basically explodes into a mattress.

00:39:49   Is that roughly right?

00:39:50   - Yeah, it's the trippiest but most awesome thing to witness.

00:39:55   It is extremely cool.

00:39:56   I guess I'm assuming they like vacuum pack the thing.

00:39:59   So they give you a little tool that lets you open

00:40:02   the plastic wrapping that it's packed in,

00:40:04   and you give it about five or 10 minutes,

00:40:06   and it just sucks all the air out of the room

00:40:09   and into itself and expands, it's very neat.

00:40:12   - Exactly, this is an obsessively engineered mattress

00:40:15   at a shockingly fair price.

00:40:17   And now the cool thing is,

00:40:18   another reason you might be worried about mattress

00:40:21   buying online besides delivery challenges,

00:40:23   is they have a risk-free trial and return policy.

00:40:26   You can try sleeping on a Casper mattress

00:40:28   for up to 100 days with free delivery and painless returns.

00:40:33   These mattresses are also made in America,

00:40:36   which is pretty cool.

00:40:37   So definitely check out Casper.

00:40:38   go to casper.com/ATP and use coupon code ATP at checkout,

00:40:43   and you'll get 50 bucks off.

00:40:47   So these prices get even better.

00:40:49   And really, you know, regular price,

00:40:50   850 for Queen, 950 for King, those are incredible prices.

00:40:54   And really, it's a pretty cool mattress, I gotta say.

00:40:57   Once again, go to casper.com, C-A-S-P-E-R.com/ATP,

00:41:02   and use coupon code ATP at checkout for 50 bucks off.

00:41:05   Thank you very much to Casper for sponsoring our show.

00:41:08   Once again, it is a really great mattress

00:41:10   at a shockingly fair price.

00:41:12   - So we are 45-ish minutes in

00:41:16   and we're through one follow-up item.

00:41:18   - And one sponsor.

00:41:19   - I totally blame Marco for that derail

00:41:21   'cause he was talking about stuff

00:41:22   that was not in the follow-up.

00:41:24   - That is totally fair.

00:41:25   - It's breaking the format.

00:41:26   - See the problem is I've been developing,

00:41:28   I've been coding like a madman all week

00:41:31   and so I haven't blogged at all.

00:41:35   All that should have been a blog post,

00:41:36   or a few blog posts actually,

00:41:39   but I haven't had time to write it up

00:41:42   and it's just easier to spew it all out

00:41:43   at you guys on the show.

00:41:45   - So accidental build and analyze.

00:41:47   - Exactly.

00:41:48   - All right, why don't you tell us, John,

00:41:51   about whether or not the rest of the world uses NFC.

00:41:55   - Yeah, that's enough.

00:41:56   I was going to mostly just absorb this feedback,

00:42:00   but enough people have sent it

00:42:01   that I think it's worth clarifying

00:42:02   in case other people are misunderstanding as well.

00:42:05   We keep talking about Apple Pay, contactless payment

00:42:07   in the UK, various other countries that

00:42:09   have ways that you can pay for things by waiving something

00:42:11   next to something.

00:42:12   We kept getting feedback saying, you

00:42:16   think this is a reason that Apple Pay might not

00:42:18   get adopted, but don't you know that all of these things--

00:42:21   and they list out whatever the things are, contactless, Apple

00:42:23   Pay, or whatever the brand name for the thing

00:42:26   is in their country-- they all use NFC,

00:42:28   so the hardware is all there.

00:42:29   And I just wanted to clarify that, yes, we

00:42:31   know that they all use NFC.

00:42:32   If you don't know, they always NFC,

00:42:35   look up NFC on Wikipedia and read all about it.

00:42:37   That's the underlying technology of all these wave something

00:42:40   near some other thing.

00:42:41   Some of them use RFID, but it's very similar type of thing.

00:42:44   So yes, we understand the hardware they install very often

00:42:47   is the same in all those cases, they all work with NFC.

00:42:49   The reason we're talking about Apple Pay adoption is

00:42:51   having the hardware isn't sufficient.

00:42:53   You also need business deals to connect up

00:42:55   the parties involved in accepting the tokens

00:42:57   that come from the device and validating them

00:43:00   and doing all that other stuff.

00:43:01   So that's, it's not like we're saying that Apple Pay

00:43:03   will have a hard time getting adoption

00:43:04   because the UK uses different hardware for the contact list.

00:43:06   It's all about business deals, basically.

00:43:09   - So would you say that the hardware is necessary,

00:43:11   but maybe not sufficient?

00:43:13   - Yeah, and that was a question in the beginning.

00:43:15   'Cause it was, like the question was,

00:43:17   well there's a couple questions about Apple's NFC.

00:43:19   So building NFC into the phone,

00:43:20   the first thing we learned is that Apple is, I think,

00:43:22   not providing access to third parties

00:43:24   to screw with that NFC hardware

00:43:25   in the same way as they can on an Android phone.

00:43:27   Which is fine, I guess,

00:43:29   the typical Apple way of doing stuff.

00:43:30   And the second one was, is there anything at all special

00:43:33   about the other end of the thing that you

00:43:35   have to wave an Apple phone against to use the NFC device?

00:43:39   And I think what we've learned is that there's

00:43:40   nothing special about it.

00:43:41   It's all about who's connecting to what on the back end.

00:43:45   But the actual point of sale hardware,

00:43:47   if it's NFC and has that little industry standard logo thing,

00:43:51   then it's just a matter of getting the deal set up.

00:43:55   All right.

00:43:56   Moving on.

00:43:57   why don't we talk about the iPhone 6 Plus scaling,

00:44:01   which has been really grinding some designers' gears

00:44:04   this week, as I think Marco alluded to earlier.

00:44:07   What do we know about this?

00:44:09   - This is not substantiated by anything,

00:44:11   because it was posted,

00:44:12   I hate when people do this on Twitter,

00:44:14   but they do it often,

00:44:14   they will post an image of text,

00:44:17   they will link to an image of text,

00:44:18   rather than linking to the source webpage or whatever.

00:44:21   And so this was a tweet with an image of text,

00:44:23   and usually I figure I can do a Google verbatim search

00:44:26   Pick out a unique phrase and find the web page with that text, and I just couldn't find this one

00:44:30   I tried a couple of different phrases and could not find whatever this thing was referencing so who knows maybe it was a secret email

00:44:36   To somebody so I don't even know if this is true, but this gets back to my sort of

00:44:40   Discomfort with the scaling and the iPhone 6 plus which I will once again re-emphasize

00:44:45   I do not think is a problem for regular people it is only a problem for people who care about these things and we

00:44:50   Are small in number so anyway for people telling me that it doesn't matter that this happens you're right

00:44:54   It doesn't matter just matters to me anyway without out of the way

00:44:57   Here's another thing that if true is it makes me dislike it even more

00:45:02   So the iPhone 6 plus has basically a 1080p

00:45:05   Resolution like the actual native pixels on the screen

00:45:08   And you would think well

00:45:11   That's not great because they're drawing things at 3x which is much bigger than they scale down to 1080

00:45:15   And that's the thing that's bothering me with the hairline shimmering and stuff like that

00:45:18   But it's actually great if you're watching 1080p video that you might have downloaded onto the device from the iTunes Store

00:45:24   or something, hey, perfect native screen for that.

00:45:27   Not only is it the right aspect ratio,

00:45:28   but it is actually exactly the native resolution

00:45:31   of the movie or whatever.

00:45:33   But this random image attached to a tweet says

00:45:37   that if you do a screen capture during video playback,

00:45:40   you'll see that the video is rendered at 2208 by 1242.

00:45:44   So the 1080p video is scaled up

00:45:46   to the actual off-screen render 3x resolution

00:45:48   and then scaled back down to 1080 for display purposes,

00:45:51   which is crazy pants if true,

00:45:53   because you'd hope that in this one instance

00:45:55   in full screen video playback, they'd say,

00:45:57   "You know what, just decode the video

00:45:58   "and show it natively on the pixels

00:46:00   "'cause everything matches up perfectly."

00:46:02   I'll be sad if this is true

00:46:04   and it will make me not like it even more.

00:46:06   - Oh, it's almost certainly true.

00:46:08   The reasons why, what it would take to not do that,

00:46:13   like the amount of exceptions and special processing

00:46:16   it would take in the hardware and software

00:46:18   to let the OS output different pixel mapping

00:46:23   for just the video?

00:46:24   - It just needs to capture the screen.

00:46:26   Like back in, I complained,

00:46:28   this is one of my first blog posts ever on the internet

00:46:29   complaining about this.

00:46:30   Like if you'd launch a Mac game

00:46:31   and it wouldn't use the API to,

00:46:33   I think it was called capturing the screen or whatever.

00:46:35   There's an API that you can call and say,

00:46:36   "Look, I'm taking over the screen.

00:46:38   "I'm gonna screw with the screen.

00:46:39   "I don't want any other applications

00:46:41   "that are currently running to have any idea

00:46:42   "that I'm screwing with the screen."

00:46:43   So all the notifications they would normally get

00:46:45   about like, "Hey, by the way, did you know

00:46:47   "that the user just changed the resolution of the screen?"

00:46:48   This is on a Mac I'm talking about.

00:46:50   You might wanna move your windows around

00:46:52   or you might want to adjust something or whatever,

00:46:54   I'm going to call the API that says,

00:46:55   don't send anybody those things,

00:46:57   'cause I'm gonna change it to 640 by 480

00:46:58   so I can play Quake or whatever is going on.

00:47:00   I do not want you to hose every single window on the screen.

00:47:03   And you know me, games that didn't do that,

00:47:05   you'd launch them, it would change your screen resolution,

00:47:07   destroy all your window placements,

00:47:08   and I would just be incredibly angry

00:47:10   'cause there's no one due for that operation.

00:47:11   And it's like, you just have to call one API.

00:47:13   So anyway, on the phone, if they had,

00:47:16   and this is on OS X I'm talking about,

00:47:18   something related to those APIs somewhere in there

00:47:20   that you could capture the display device essentially,

00:47:23   change the output resolution

00:47:25   while you're in full screen playback,

00:47:27   and then just do your full screen playback in that way.

00:47:30   - Yeah, but then what happens when you tap the screen

00:47:32   to show the bars?

00:47:33   - It has to uncapture,

00:47:35   it has to do the whole,

00:47:35   the same thing would happen if you alt tabbed on OS X.

00:47:38   We have the technology to do this,

00:47:39   you're right, it's a little bit more of a hassle.

00:47:41   - And it has always sucked whenever anything has ever done it.

00:47:44   - Well, no, you can do it.

00:47:45   The Mac games that did it well, it was fine.

00:47:47   You would alt tab and you'd see the alt tab menu

00:47:50   at the resolution that the game had changed into,

00:47:52   but then when it switched to the other app,

00:47:53   it would go back to the other res,

00:47:54   and none of the other apps would have any idea

00:47:56   that the game was running in different resolutions.

00:47:58   Sometimes they'd even show the game in a little window.

00:48:01   The full screen thing would go into a window

00:48:03   at whatever the native resolution of the, anyway.

00:48:05   This is all probably weird in iOS,

00:48:06   and it's probably much more straightforward to do it

00:48:09   the straightforward way, but that's really a shame,

00:48:12   don't you think?

00:48:13   Like taking 1080p, scaling it up, and shrinking it back down.

00:48:15   You're just losing data and smudge,

00:48:18   And again, no one will notice this.

00:48:20   I totally agree that you will never be able to see this

00:48:22   with your naked eye.

00:48:22   It's all in my head.

00:48:24   - That's exactly the thing.

00:48:25   Like academically, if you think about it as a geek like us,

00:48:30   everything that the 6+ does is gross and weird

00:48:33   with the way it scales the screen.

00:48:36   Like it is rendering at not the right size

00:48:40   and scaling it down to the right size.

00:48:43   And by the way, the right size is at a weird DPI of 3X.

00:48:48   Like, all of that is gross to people like us.

00:48:52   The reason why it works is because you don't notice.

00:48:55   Yes, I know, as I said last time,

00:48:57   if you scroll table view very slowly

00:48:59   and look at the borders, you can probably see them shimmering.

00:49:02   Yes, that is visible when you're looking for it.

00:49:05   No, you don't see it in real life.

00:49:07   And I think thinking about what this would require

00:49:11   to make this exception for 1080p video.

00:49:13   First of all, how many people even watch

00:49:15   1080p video on their phones?

00:49:17   Well, isn't that what iTunes serves up these days, doesn't it?

00:49:20   Well, if you're streaming it, maybe if you're streaming it over a very good

00:49:24   connection in an app that will actually serve that to a phone, maybe.

00:49:28   No, I mean, if you get if you buy if you buy a movie from iTunes,

00:49:31   don't you get 1080 these days?

00:49:33   You do, but isn't it like four gigs?

00:49:35   Oh, yeah. But you download it onto your phone.

00:49:38   I don't know what they send to phones.

00:49:40   They could be sending a down res version of them.

00:49:42   I mean, YouTube plays 1080 for crying out loud on the desktop anyway.

00:49:45   I don't know if it still does.

00:49:46   iTunes used to, when you'd buy a 1080 movie,

00:49:49   it would download two versions.

00:49:49   It would download like a 1080 version and like a lower,

00:49:53   I don't know whether it was 720

00:49:54   or something even lower than that,

00:49:56   mostly for putting on iPods and iPhones.

00:49:58   And anyway, it doesn't really matter.

00:50:01   I think the number of people who will watch

00:50:04   actual 1080p video files or streaming video on their iPhone

00:50:08   is probably pretty low.

00:50:09   I think most of the time, people watching video on phones

00:50:11   are seeing lower resolutions than that.

00:50:13   And then secondly, for the people who are seeing 1080p

00:50:17   video on their phone, I think that the chances that they

00:50:20   would ever notice anything wrong with the scaling,

00:50:24   you know, any artifacts from that notice,

00:50:25   any extra blurriness or pixilation from that,

00:50:27   I think the chances of that are so incredibly low

00:50:31   that it is definitely not worth what would probably be

00:50:34   some pretty big complexity required

00:50:37   to get that feature to work.

00:50:38   - See, we don't even know if this is what they're

00:50:40   actually doing, so for all we know,

00:50:41   they already are doing the more complex thing.

00:50:43   It's mostly a shame in 1080 because it's such a perfect fit, but in 720 it might actually be more noticeable

00:50:48   I have more of a chance to notice things because it's got to go

00:50:50   From 720 all the way up to 2208 by 1242 and then back down to you know 1080p

00:50:57   So it's a strange transition. Good real-time follow up from the chat from

00:51:01   Nathan uh how about 1080p video taken with the phone's camera?

00:51:05   Yeah, there you go, and that's that's a very good point

00:51:07   That is that is probably the most common source of 1080p video on the phone is from the camera

00:51:11   but that's a very good point, I didn't think of that.

00:51:13   I think that it still holds that most people

00:51:16   would not notice the difference

00:51:17   between these two rendering modes,

00:51:19   and therefore I really don't think,

00:51:22   I would question honestly whether anybody

00:51:24   could tell the difference.

00:51:25   If they could set it up as a blind test

00:51:27   and do it both ways.

00:51:28   - The shimmering hair lines you can't see,

00:51:29   and the one we kept getting feedback about was like,

00:51:32   I can't notice it anywhere except for the battery indicator.

00:51:34   Because the battery indicator is on the screen

00:51:36   so much of the time in iOS,

00:51:38   and because people are so familiar with the way it looks

00:51:40   and iOS 7 on their other Retina iOS 7 devices.

00:51:44   People, regular, all right, they're not regular,

00:51:46   but they're slightly closer to regular people

00:51:49   can pick it up in the battery indicator.

00:51:50   Regular people still don't care.

00:51:52   But the reason I bring this up again

00:51:54   is because I was thinking back to the keynote

00:51:57   when they introduced the, and I know it's not a keynote,

00:51:59   we got feedback about that, it's only a keynote.

00:52:01   When you're setting the tone for a week of conferences,

00:52:03   this was not a keynote, this is a press thing.

00:52:04   But we called a keynote, the application is called keynote.

00:52:08   we will continue to use the idiomatic definition of keynote

00:52:11   when in the context of Apple stuff,

00:52:13   we mean a speech where Apple executive

00:52:15   introduced products.

00:52:16   Anyway, where they made a specific point

00:52:19   of talking about the desktop quality hardware scaler.

00:52:23   And at the time that seemed weird

00:52:25   because like why emphasize that?

00:52:27   But it's kind of like, it's not exactly like so,

00:52:30   please don't send me emails telling me this analogy

00:52:32   is not apt because I already know it's not.

00:52:33   But it reminded me of the narrative device

00:52:37   of hang a lantern on it, where if you've got a plot point

00:52:39   in a story that doesn't make any sense,

00:52:42   rather than trying to figure out a way

00:52:44   to make it make sense, you just have one of the characters

00:52:46   in the scene point out the thing that doesn't make sense.

00:52:49   Like, you know, the audience is gonna go,

00:52:51   "Hey, that doesn't make any sense."

00:52:52   But if you have a character on screen say,

00:52:53   "That's impossible, that can't be happening,"

00:52:55   then that makes it okay.

00:52:56   Well, this is kind of like, they knew they had a device

00:52:59   that was a weird compromise with the 3X scaled down

00:53:02   to fit the screen, and they're trying to turn a weakness

00:53:05   to a strength by explicitly bragging about the thing they have that makes this hack possible,

00:53:09   which is their desktop quality scaler whatever, and by hanging a lantern on it, by basically

00:53:16   having the person on the stage say the thing that the nerds might be thinking, "Oh, actually

00:53:21   that's something cool about this thing, the scaler they have, you know, no one has ever

00:53:25   thought of scaler, which is probably just, you know, it's more hardware in the GPU.

00:53:29   GPU scale things really fast anyway.

00:53:30   I don't think this is any dedicated hardware, people can correct me if I'm wrong, but anyway,

00:53:35   The fact that they're pointing it out is kind of an admission that they're not particularly

00:53:39   happy with this whole scaling thing either, but they're trying to submit it as something

00:53:42   good.

00:53:43   And this all gets back to the mystery that we still have of, what's the deal with this?

00:53:48   Did they plan to do a native 3x screen and couldn't do it?

00:53:50   Or did they always plan to do it this way?

00:53:53   And we don't know the answer to that.

00:53:54   I've got conflicting feedback from two separate, completely unreliable, you know, random sources

00:54:01   saying they totally planned to do a native 3x screen and they just couldn't do it because

00:54:04   of availability and stuff and other feedback saying the exact opposite that they always

00:54:09   plan to do it this way and it's not because they couldn't do native 3x so I don't know

00:54:14   what to think all I know is that it bothers me and yes it will probably not bother almost

00:54:18   anyone else in the world.

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00:56:13   - Okay, so we're still talking about iPhones that can bend.

00:56:19   That's still a thing.

00:56:21   - I guess.

00:56:22   - Well, there's been more action on the internet about it.

00:56:24   Consumer Reports did a bending test

00:56:26   using actual equipment for bending.

00:56:28   Although, I just read the Consumer Reports thing

00:56:31   that's linked to there, and I'm glad that they took out

00:56:34   the little three-point bending machine

00:56:35   and measured the force with a bunch of different phones,

00:56:37   because that's more or less what I was asking for,

00:56:39   but I didn't see a bunch of tables showing all the results.

00:56:42   What they basically came down to is,

00:56:44   there are some phones that are stronger

00:56:46   than the iPhone 6 Plus, there are some phones that are weaker

00:56:50   The 6 Plus I think actually did better

00:56:51   than the plain old 6.

00:56:54   It was enough to sort of kind of say with more confidence

00:56:59   that this is not really much of a story

00:57:02   because the 6 and 6 Plus are not appreciably,

00:57:06   they're not the bottom of the barrel,

00:57:07   they're not weaker than all the other phones

00:57:09   that are out there, they're not stronger than,

00:57:10   they're kind of in the mid-pack.

00:57:13   But as usual, Dr. Drang had some more interesting posts

00:57:16   in and around this topic that got,

00:57:18   I mean, people just give the phones to him

00:57:20   because he can run the tests and give us real results,

00:57:23   that got closer to the heart of the matter,

00:57:24   because force applied to the phones to break them,

00:57:28   like at what point did the phone break or bend or whatever,

00:57:31   it's not as important as some other more subtler things,

00:57:35   like how much force do you have to apply

00:57:39   before there is measurable permanent deformation?

00:57:42   Because that seems to be happening

00:57:44   to a lot of people's phones,

00:57:44   and maybe people care about that.

00:57:45   It's like, okay, well, we figured out for breaking,

00:57:48   the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus are kind of mid-pack,

00:57:51   'cause they pressed all the phones until they broke, right?

00:57:54   But there may be many forces that a plastic phone

00:57:57   can tolerate and spring back from

00:57:59   right back into its full normal shape.

00:58:02   They would permanently deform an iPhone

00:58:05   because it's made of aluminum.

00:58:06   And the other factor that they could have delved into more

00:58:12   was how much force is typically applied

00:58:18   to a phone based on the size.

00:58:19   So if you have a really long skinny phone,

00:58:21   you can get more leverage and apply more force to it.

00:58:24   I don't know how they would measure this one,

00:58:25   but this is also a factor like saying that the,

00:58:27   the six plus did better than the six in the force test.

00:58:30   But what are the expected forces in the front pocket

00:58:34   of someone's pants of a taller phone versus a shorter phone?

00:58:37   Like the machines are applying measurable force

00:58:39   to each thing, but you don't know,

00:58:40   like when I put this in my pocket,

00:58:42   is the six plus going to experience much more force

00:58:44   because it's longer and there's more leverage.

00:58:46   And so even though the six is technically weaker,

00:58:49   it takes much stranger moves with your leg or whatever to apply that force to the thing.

00:58:53   So, anyway, I'm pretty convinced that the 6 and 6 Plus are material-wise, not any weaker

00:59:03   substantially than any other phones, but because the 6 Plus is taller, I think the

00:59:07   likelihood that forces will be applied to the 6 Plus that are much harder to apply to the

00:59:14   the shorter phones is high and so I think we'll still see lots and because aluminum

00:59:19   doesn't spring back like plastic does I still think we'll see this story ongoing and I saw

00:59:24   a tweet from somebody whose last name is Swearing Jim which I think is great if you're a fan

00:59:29   of the show whose name escapes me now come on you two are useless.

00:59:34   Is it Deadwood?

00:59:35   Yes there you go.

00:59:36   Deadwood.

00:59:36   Jeremy Swearing Jim.

00:59:38   How did I know that?

00:59:39   It's a very popular show.

00:59:40   I didn't even watch that show.

00:59:41   It's a good show you should.

00:59:42   I got through the first episode and didn't like it, so I stopped.

00:59:44   A lot of cursing.

00:59:45   You should try it. It gets better.

00:59:47   Then it ends too soon, so it's sad.

00:59:48   So maybe you shouldn't watch it.

00:59:49   It's kind of like Firefly Casey.

00:59:50   Hey, a show you know.

00:59:51   I do know that show.

00:59:52   Yeah.

00:59:52   So he said he bent his iPhone 6

00:59:55   and kept it in his back pocket and it never felt tight and posted pictures of it.

01:00:00   And these are slight bends.

01:00:02   I mean, if you search, you can find tons of pictures of bent iPhone 5s

01:00:05   and everything as well, too, which is why I think this is just, you know,

01:00:08   the the media machine making these things more visible is one issue.

01:00:12   The second issue is that if you make phones out of aluminum people keep them in their pockets

01:00:15   Aluminum can accept amounts of force that do not break the phone

01:00:20   But nevertheless the phone does not spring back from and then you have a slightly bent phone. Do you care about that?

01:00:25   Maybe you don't care

01:00:26   Maybe you don't notice maybe people are running around with slightly bent iPhone 5s now and have no idea until they like put it on

01:00:30   Table and like a look at it from the side really carefully and say you know what this is a little bit bent

01:00:34   So anyway that this continues to go on I think we can expect to see more stories about it

01:00:40   but I'm much more chill about it now than I was before,

01:00:42   except for in the case of the Plus,

01:00:43   where I think the outstanding issue is that

01:00:46   it's plenty sturdy, plenty strong,

01:00:48   but because it is a larger phone,

01:00:49   there is a potential for higher forces to be applied to it

01:00:52   because of the leverage you get between the edges

01:00:54   and the middle of the phone, so.

01:00:55   - It's a little odd to me that aluminum

01:00:57   was the choice of metal.

01:00:59   It is, but it isn't.

01:01:00   I mean, aluminum is soft,

01:01:02   and I know other harder metals are a lot more expensive,

01:01:06   and this is where Dr. Drang is ripping his hair out,

01:01:08   But I don't know, it just seems like an interesting choice.

01:01:12   It's something that--

01:01:13   - It's lightweight, though.

01:01:14   - I know, and that's the obvious answer, but--

01:01:17   - And there's also all sorts of other properties, too,

01:01:19   that might be desirable, like the way it dents or shatters

01:01:22   or doesn't dent or doesn't shatter.

01:01:24   - Oh, that's a good point.

01:01:24   - And it's plenty strong.

01:01:26   I mean, they make cars out of aluminum, too.

01:01:28   Like, you just have to apply,

01:01:30   like, this is what I was getting at

01:01:31   if you made it a little bit bigger.

01:01:32   It's not just you could fit more battery,

01:01:33   but you could put the little side impact beams,

01:01:35   like strengthening things,

01:01:37   make certain parts of it thicker and stuff like that.

01:01:39   I don't think you need to do it with the smaller sizes

01:01:41   and maybe even with the bigger one it's not an issue,

01:01:43   but again, we need someone with,

01:01:48   I don't know how you do the scientific test of forces

01:01:50   that might be applied to a phone in a pocket,

01:01:52   but that I think is the open question.

01:01:54   But anyway, this increased awareness

01:01:56   is kind of like the medical students' disease

01:01:58   where once you know all the things

01:01:59   that can go wrong with your body,

01:02:00   suddenly you think all of them are happening to you, right?

01:02:03   You become a hypochondriac temporarily.

01:02:05   Well, now that everyone knows that bending phones is a thing,

01:02:08   like everyone should take their 5s and 5s

01:02:11   and put them all on the table and see if they're slightly cupped.

01:02:14   - Looking forward to that.

01:02:15   I'm gonna get right on that.

01:02:16   - Yeah, I don't know what I would do with that.

01:02:17   - You joke about it, but I bet you will.

01:02:19   After you use the 6 Plus for a couple of weeks,

01:02:21   you will find yourself inevitably saying,

01:02:24   "You know, I wonder if I have added a slight bend."

01:02:26   And you'll look, you can't help yourself, you'll look.

01:02:29   Not that you'll care if you see,

01:02:30   "Oh, you know, it is a bend," like whatever.

01:02:32   Like you'll go back to your life,

01:02:33   but it's impossible not to check

01:02:35   if you're into this type of thing.

01:02:37   Just out of curiosity.

01:02:39   - If this really does happen to you,

01:02:40   where you're six or six plus bends,

01:02:43   I bet if you take it to the Genius Bar,

01:02:44   you know, unless it looks like your phone

01:02:45   was run over by a car,

01:02:46   I bet they'll probably replace it for you.

01:02:48   - Well, this is like the high pitch noise from my SE30.

01:02:51   If you come in with a phone that looks perfect,

01:02:53   but you say, "But, but, hey, watch.

01:02:55   "If you put it on the table,

01:02:56   "and the table's perfectly flat, and you shine a light,

01:02:57   "you can see a little light peeking through the middle,

01:02:59   "but the edge is dead." (laughing)

01:03:01   Then you'll seem like a crazy person,

01:03:02   like I did when I said that my power supply

01:03:04   made a high-pitched wine on my SE30, but it totally did.

01:03:06   - Mm-hmm.

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01:05:01   A better web starts with your website.

01:05:03   - Jon, tell me about the iPod touch.

01:05:06   - It still exists?

01:05:07   - I was just wondering, like, you know,

01:05:09   I use an iPod touch so a few people do,

01:05:11   except for kids, right?

01:05:13   I wonder if the people who want small,

01:05:17   you know, who want iPhone 5 size things

01:05:18   will become the new iPod touch people.

01:05:21   Like, there's a group of people who want that, definitely,

01:05:23   but that most other people don't,

01:05:25   and don't understand that desire, and don't care about it.

01:05:27   and when the small phone people are marginalized,

01:05:30   they'll be sad, but everyone else will just be like,

01:05:32   well, whatever, and Apple and the rest of the industry

01:05:34   will move on to big giant phones,

01:05:35   and you'll complain about the iPhone 6 being too big for you

01:05:39   the same way I complain about the iPod touch

01:05:41   not getting updated.

01:05:42   - Possibly, and I'm on the verge of being

01:05:45   one of those people.

01:05:46   I did get a lot of, and I think a lot of this

01:05:48   came to you guys as well, got a lot of feedback

01:05:50   about how perhaps the 6 is a little too big,

01:05:54   And a lot of it's relative.

01:05:57   It was a lot more than I expected is I think what I'm trying to say.

01:06:00   And a lot of people came out of the woodwork to say, you know what?

01:06:03   I agree with you.

01:06:03   The six is too big and I really miss my five S and then a couple of people even

01:06:07   emailed or tweeted to say, I actually returned my six and bought a five S.

01:06:11   Presumably these are people who were on the five previously.

01:06:14   And they didn't like the size so much that they actually went to a year

01:06:20   old product because they felt like it was a better fit for them.

01:06:24   Huh?

01:06:24   So, it's certainly possible that you will get an iPhone and then I'll be the idiot

01:06:31   that's lamenting the days when we used to have, you know, four-inch phones and how much

01:06:35   better that was.

01:06:37   Just like you lament the days when the—well, no, the iPod Touch has never really been updated,

01:06:40   so never mind.

01:06:41   It was the fastest iOS device at one time.

01:06:43   When I got my first iPod Touch, it was faster than the iPhone.

01:06:46   Those were the days or weeks or months.

01:06:49   You sound like me with my Subaru.

01:06:51   When I bought my Subaru Legacy, it was quicker than the WRX at the time, and that lasted

01:06:55   like a year.

01:06:57   But man, that was a good year.

01:07:00   Tell me about wood inlays.

01:07:01   I love that we have follow-up about this.

01:07:03   There's a question I asked the chat room and you guys last time, and we got bad answers.

01:07:07   What is that?

01:07:08   We're talking about the antenna lines on the back of the 6, and how the antenna lines are

01:07:15   ugly, but they tried to give them some aesthetic interest by making them so beautifully flush

01:07:22   with the back of the device, and I was saying I hope they stayed that way because that is

01:07:25   their main and possibly only redeeming aesthetic value is the position with which they're made.

01:07:30   And I said it was like that wood end lay thing where you make these intricate designs by

01:07:34   fitting pieces of wood all next to each other, looks like one big flat surface, and I asked

01:07:37   what that was called and nobody knew, it's called Marketry.

01:07:40   Steven...

01:07:41   Cyrek?

01:07:42   Yeah, they gave us that answer.

01:07:44   We will link to the Wikipedia page.

01:07:46   Markitree, it's cool.

01:07:48   - All right.

01:07:50   - All right, wow.

01:07:51   - And speaking of interesting words.

01:07:53   - Yes, we went to another word we asked for.

01:07:56   This might've gone by in the chat room

01:07:57   and I just missed it.

01:07:58   Kleenex and Q-tips and all those other things

01:08:01   that are actually product names

01:08:02   but that have become placeholders

01:08:03   for the entire category of device.

01:08:05   That's called a proprietary eponym.

01:08:07   So there you go.

01:08:08   This is a vocabulary type.

01:08:10   You'll be quizzed on these at the end of the year.

01:08:13   Marco, do you also feel better knowing these pieces of vocabulary that I've already forgotten?

01:08:17   I can't even, I've already forgotten even how many we've learned.

01:08:22   I'm gonna forget, proprietary eponym, I can say right now, I'm probably gonna forget that

01:08:25   one, but marquetry I'll probably remember.

01:08:27   So the less useful one, I'll remember.

01:08:29   All right, so we are in roughly an hour and a quarter into the show.

01:08:33   Is there any other follow-up that you'd like to do before we start the show?

01:08:37   Please no.

01:08:38   Are we gonna start the show or are we just gonna go straight to the post show?

01:08:42   to our three sponsors this week Casper Squarespace and Ray's Labs and we will

01:08:47   see you next week. Oh before I forget our friend Jonathan Mann who read our theme

01:08:51   song and who's generally awesome the song of day man he has a Kickstarter

01:08:56   project called the Harry Potter EP and he asked me to see if I can see if we

01:09:01   can give it a quick mention on the show because he's running out of time and he

01:09:05   really wants to make this he's only asking for a few thousand dollars it's a

01:09:07   Very easy ask.

01:09:09   He recorded five songs about Harry Potter

01:09:12   and he basically wants to make them into full productions

01:09:15   with the rest of the band.

01:09:18   Hire a drummer to record for the session

01:09:19   and everything else and make an EP.

01:09:21   You can get it for just five bucks.

01:09:23   Go to Kickstarter.JonathanMannwithTwoEnds.net

01:09:27   and I'll put a link in the show notes as well.

01:09:29   So thanks to Jonathan and we will see you next week.

01:09:31   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:09:37   They didn't even mean to begin 'Cause it was accidental

01:09:41   Oh, it was accidental John didn't do any research

01:09:47   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him 'Cause it was accidental

01:09:51   Oh, it was accidental And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:09:58   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:10:05   @CASEYLISS

01:10:09   So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:10:14   E-N-T Marko Arman S-I-R-A-C

01:10:19   U-S-A Syracusa

01:10:21   It's accidental (It's accidental)

01:10:24   They didn't mean to.

01:10:27   Accidental.

01:10:28   Accidental.

01:10:29   Tech podcast so long.

01:10:34   In the tradition of continuing to follow up into the after show--

01:10:38   Oh my god.

01:10:39   Wait, is that a tradition?

01:10:40   Have we established this?

01:10:42   No, we're doing it now, yeah.

01:10:43   The invisible spreadsheet thing.

01:10:45   I got a lot of comments on that.

01:10:46   Didn't I talk about this?

01:10:47   The last show that was in the show when I heard it, right?

01:10:50   Yeah.

01:10:51   But I was referring back to a conversation in past shows

01:10:55   where this was originally brought up.

01:10:56   - Well, I believe you were referring back to

01:10:58   something you had quickly stated

01:11:01   in another one of the after shows.

01:11:02   So it was a callback to an after show throwaway line.

01:11:07   - Did it stay in the edit though?

01:11:09   Did you leave that in?

01:11:10   - It did.

01:11:10   Oh, I would not have taken that out.

01:11:12   (laughing)

01:11:13   - People have bad memories

01:11:14   'cause lots of people were sending feedback

01:11:16   about the invisible spreadsheet

01:11:16   as if the first time I said it was in the past episode.

01:11:19   but I was referring back to something

01:11:21   that I had said in the past, anyway.

01:11:22   - Right, so now we have follow up on your previous joke

01:11:25   about the after show that you had said before that

01:11:27   in the after show. - It's not a joke, Casey.

01:11:29   I just called you Casey, that's fine.

01:11:30   - It's all right, I watch, I touch, yeah.

01:11:32   - Yeah, Apple phone.

01:11:35   Anyway, it's not a joke.

01:11:37   (laughing)

01:11:39   Oh my God.

01:11:39   I don't even know what to do right now.

01:11:43   Yeah, we are so done.

01:11:45   We are so done.

01:11:48   Holy hell.

01:11:50   Oh, oh, oh, oh, I completely forgot.

01:11:52   How's the review?

01:11:53   Oh, yeah, because the GM came out.

01:11:56   This this is like crunch time, right?

01:11:57   Yeah, I went through it all and had to change some screenshots.

01:12:01   It was good going through it all.

01:12:02   Like I saved I'd taken all my screenshots already.

01:12:05   So after doing this long enough, I'm trying to get a feel for like,

01:12:08   when do I feel like the graphics are locked down and the UI locked down?

01:12:12   And you have to pick something.

01:12:13   So I think I picked the right builds to do all my screenshots and things did change.

01:12:17   I took the GM as my chance to go back through all my screenshots and diff them all essentially to make sure and I found

01:12:23   Some ones that they were really old that actually if I had retaken them for the bill, you know

01:12:28   I took some screenshots early and then was sad because everything kept changing I stopped and then I took all my screenshots later

01:12:33   But didn't retake the ones I had taken earlier

01:12:35   So anyway, I had to do some replacement and some fixing and all that other stuff

01:12:38   I would really like a release date. That would be nice. Don't you think?

01:12:42   You know, it really helps with the whole lead time on getting books into stores and stuff like that

01:12:47   But I'm adding a few tiny little things to you know

01:12:52   the end where you just throw in like a two sentences on some new little feature and throw in a screenshot or whatever and after that

01:12:58   I feel like I'll be done and I can

01:13:00   Start I mean I've already started the production process of trying to get the e-book stuff in

01:13:04   Checking to find out that still the iOS version of the Kindle app doesn't read the kf8 format which just blows my mind, but whatever

01:13:14   Yeah

01:13:15   Hacking up my terrible pearl scripts that make these ebooks making them even more disgusting is there any other kind of pearl script there is

01:13:23   I'm at the point now like if this is my last review

01:13:26   I'm just over the line of like you know what the sloppy lazy programming type thing like well. This is a throwaway thing

01:13:31   I got to do once

01:13:32   I'll just write a crappy no big deal right

01:13:34   But at a certain point if you use it a certain amount or number of times you would have been your time would have been better

01:13:38   Spent making like a real version of it in the beginning right I think I'm just crossing that line now

01:13:43   I'm like, okay, now I've used this enough times

01:13:46   that if I had just written it right the first time,

01:13:48   I would have saved time in the long run,

01:13:50   but it's way too late to write it the right way this time,

01:13:52   so I'm just carrying even less

01:13:53   and just hacking it up and making it work.

01:13:55   So if this is the last time,

01:13:58   this will be a sad goodbye

01:13:59   to my so-called ebook production system.

01:14:03   And every year there's differences.

01:14:06   It's gonna be a slightly different presentation

01:14:08   on the ARS website and some slightly different features

01:14:10   I have them add to the CMS for my review and blah, blah,

01:14:12   lot but I would like a release date I could still get caught on my heels if they release

01:14:17   a thing tomorrow or Tuesday or any other if they don't give me you know several days notice

01:14:21   to get this book built and you know get the review edited and copy edited then because

01:14:26   you can't build the book until everything's edited and copy edited then you build the

01:14:29   book then you submit to the books at the store then they come out available anyway it'll

01:14:33   probably be okay I just want it to be over.

01:14:35   So you don't have any little birdies telling you even a theoretical release date?

01:14:40   tells me anything. I mean, nobody tells anyone anything really. So they probably don't even

01:14:44   know what the release date is. They'll decide when they decide and we'll all find out together.

01:14:48   And I just hope there's some lead time, but they don't care about ebook production when

01:14:51   they're picking their release dates. You can build apps with the Xcode GMC and submit them

01:14:56   to the Mac App Store. So in theory, they could release the thing tomorrow.

01:15:00   Yeah, I would say I mean, we haven't heard anything about like another press event happening

01:15:05   for new iPads and maybe some fall iMac retina maybe happening and Yosemite, like that's

01:15:12   all going to be probably announced at some kind of press event sometime this month. But

01:15:17   we haven't even heard of that yet and usually they announce them at least a week ahead of

01:15:21   time so.

01:15:22   There's no reason Yosemite has to be tied to that, like even if they have even if they

01:15:25   have retina iMacs being announced the thing you like you can release the Yosemite order

01:15:29   the hell you feel like it like hold it for the event hold it till after the event like

01:15:34   'cause the iMacs aren't gonna ship like the next day, right?

01:15:37   It's unlike the,

01:15:39   and this has been a topic of conversation in various blogs,

01:15:41   like unlike iOS, OS X does not seem to be tied to some

01:15:46   gotta ship, gotta put it out there,

01:15:49   make or break the company product like the iPhone,

01:15:51   where it's like the new iPhones are coming,

01:15:52   they're gonna have iOS 8, when the phones are ready,

01:15:54   the OS better be ready, when the OS is ready,

01:15:56   you know, hopefully the phones are ready.

01:15:58   There's no tie like that for Yosemite, so, you know,

01:16:01   that's why it's not out yet.

01:16:02   They're like, "Meh, we'll get around to Yosemite."

01:16:04   And it's good, like it gives them more time

01:16:05   to work out bugs and all that other stuff.

01:16:07   But it also means that I have no idea when it's coming out.

01:16:11   - So sitting here now, last time.

01:16:14   - Yeah, it feels like it.

01:16:16   - Yeah, I'm sad to hear, I'm not surprised,

01:16:21   but I am sad to hear that.

01:16:22   Like I think when 10.11 or whatever gets released

01:16:27   and there's not a Syracuse review to read,

01:16:30   it is gonna feel like we're missing something big.

01:16:33   - Yep.

01:16:34   - I'll talk, if I, I mean, I still have a year

01:16:35   to make the decision, so I'm not, you know,

01:16:37   I'm not committing to anything now or whatever,

01:16:38   just I'm saying that's what it feels like now.

01:16:40   But if I do make the decision,

01:16:43   I will probably write up something explaining my reasoning,

01:16:46   certainly, and we'll explain it on here.

01:16:47   There are plenty of good reasons to not do it,

01:16:53   but like, again, I don't have to decide this

01:16:55   until many months from now, and I probably won't,

01:16:58   so there we go.

01:16:59   - You know, if the choice is between you continuing

01:17:02   to do the review and still whining about the iPod Touch

01:17:07   or getting an iPhone and not doing the review,

01:17:10   I'm happy for you to continue whining about your iPod Touch.

01:17:13   - Independent decisions, there is no connection

01:17:15   between those two things.

01:17:16   - I'm just making sure, just in case.

01:17:18   - And I'm still thinking that I'm waiting

01:17:20   for the October event to see what's happening

01:17:22   in the iPod Touches and even if there are iPod Touches,

01:17:24   I might still get an iPhone.

01:17:25   So iPhone chances are looking pretty good.

01:17:28   I still don't have the case issue solved

01:17:30   then I'll have to look at what the iPod touches like

01:17:32   to make a final decision, but.

01:17:34   - Yeah, I'm still not in love with the Apple leather case,

01:17:38   but I really, I feel like the thing is too slippery

01:17:43   if I don't have a case on it.

01:17:45   And I'm too much for klutz anyway.

01:17:46   I don't know.

01:17:48   - Yeah, you guys didn't bring that up

01:17:49   in the iPhone gripping section.

01:17:51   All the people complaining,

01:17:52   "Oh, you said you drop your..."

01:17:54   - Oh, that's true, I'd forgotten about that.

01:17:56   - Yeah, no, but like, you're wise not to bring it up

01:17:59   because then I drop it.

01:18:01   Well, you can tell me, when do you guys,

01:18:02   if you have ever dropped an iOS device,

01:18:04   when does that happen?

01:18:05   Does it happen when you're holding it and typing it?

01:18:06   Not for me.

01:18:07   - No, it's when I'm swinging my arm around

01:18:10   like a crazy person, like walking or whatever.

01:18:13   - Mine always does it when I'm going into

01:18:15   or out of the pocket,

01:18:16   because if you miss the pocket going in, that's a problem.

01:18:18   And if you're trying to take it out of a pocket in a hurry

01:18:20   and like it's a tight pocket and you're trying to grip it,

01:18:22   like, or it's like a loose pocket in your jacket

01:18:24   and you're trying to pull it out into an out of pocket

01:18:27   or being picked up or put down on some shelf

01:18:30   or some other thing where you don't pay enough attention,

01:18:31   you don't quite put it all the way on the shelf

01:18:33   or you try to take it off and you slide it to the edge

01:18:34   but you slide it right off.

01:18:36   That's where my poor iPod Touch has done many tumbles.

01:18:38   Not when I'm holding it in my hand,

01:18:40   so the grip and me dropping it are

01:18:42   not related to each other.

01:18:44   - Yeah, see I've run into edges,

01:18:46   like I will hold it in my hand and I am not using it.

01:18:50   I'm just holding it for whatever reason,

01:18:52   it's not in my pocket.

01:18:53   And I'll like be walking and swinging my arms

01:18:56   as one normally does when you walk,

01:18:58   but apparently I kind of flail or something when I walk.

01:19:01   And so a lot of times I'll like clip an edge

01:19:04   on a doorframe, for example, or something like that.

01:19:07   - That's brutal, yeah.

01:19:08   - But I mean, that's why I have a case.

01:19:10   - Have either one of you ever broken a screen

01:19:12   on an iOS device ever?

01:19:14   - No.

01:19:15   - I refuse to answer that.

01:19:16   - So Casey has, I haven't.

01:19:18   - No, I actually, I refuse to answer it

01:19:20   because I know as soon as I say, no, I haven't,

01:19:22   I'm going to break it.

01:19:23   - Yeah, there's some people that like,

01:19:24   You can, there's people in your, that you know,

01:19:27   like there are screen breakers and non-screen breakers.

01:19:30   Like it's, because if someone has ever broken the screen

01:19:33   on their iPhone, chances are high that they've done it

01:19:36   more than once if they had an iPhone for years.

01:19:38   Whereas people who have never done it

01:19:39   just have these clean, and it's just different

01:19:41   in habits and handling, I think.

01:19:42   'Cause you can't just set up the chance, like,

01:19:45   it feels like people go into two bins there.

01:19:47   And it's mostly like people who are like obsessively careful

01:19:49   with their little things and don't want it to be scratched

01:19:51   and they're babying it or they're more likely not to drop it

01:19:54   than the people who just treat it like it's supposed to be treated, and every once in

01:19:57   a while they break.

01:19:58   Yeah, I haven't broken one yet.

01:20:00   I've put some small dents, but big enough dents that they're noticeable in both my

01:20:07   iPads and my iPhones, although not the 6 yet.

01:20:12   But I've never—not yet—have I shattered a screen, and I know it's only a matter

01:20:17   of time.

01:20:18   I think the worst thing I've done to an iOS device was the first time I brought my

01:20:21   iPad 3 to WWDC and I had it in my backpack and I had it in like a little

01:20:25   paddy case thing but my backpack didn't have a lot of padding at the bottom so

01:20:28   when I put my backpack down like in front of me you know sitting down in the

01:20:32   seat I must have bumped the corner of the iPad and if you look at it really

01:20:36   really closely you can see the aluminum is slightly dented in on one of the

01:20:40   corners only I would notice this but that's the worst I've done to an iOS

01:20:44   device so far