84: The Load-Bearing Finger


00:00:00   You guys are so sleepy. Kasey's gotta work on the whole getting ready to not have any sleep thing.

00:00:05   But lately, Marco's been the one saying he's all sleepy, so.

00:00:08   Yeah, well, my kid's in school now, so now I'm waking up like an hour earlier,

00:00:12   so I'm closer to Kasey's schedule.

00:00:13   I know, you already complained about your early wake-up time. Yeah, it's so bad.

00:00:18   It is horrible.

00:00:19   Then you go back home.

00:00:20   It's funny to me that when I complained and moaned for the first year and a half of this show,

00:00:26   it was, "Oh, get over it. You're fine."

00:00:28   Now that the king is having to get up early,

00:00:31   suddenly we all have to go to bed.

00:00:33   - Well, we should have a month where not only

00:00:35   does he have to get up early,

00:00:36   but like get dressed up in nice clothes

00:00:38   and not come back to his house after he drops the sun off.

00:00:41   Go to another building where you have to like

00:00:45   not smell bad and have already eaten

00:00:47   and be dressed nice.

00:00:49   - I can go to a parking lot.

00:00:51   - And then talk about parking lots afterwards.

00:00:53   What do you wear to work, Jon?

00:00:56   Do you have to wear khakis or can you wear like jeans?

00:00:58   I only have one set of clothes and you've seen them all.

00:01:01   That's what I wear.

00:01:03   I'm not as bad as Marco yet,

00:01:04   or not as good as Marco yet, I should say,

00:01:06   'cause he's already achieved my ultimate goal,

00:01:08   which is to not have to worry about clothes

00:01:10   and just have an outfit.

00:01:11   I have not achieved that, but I would like to.

00:01:13   But basically I have a small set of clothes

00:01:14   and you've seen them all, that's what I wear to work.

00:01:16   - Okay, so jeans and like a polo shirt.

00:01:19   - It's not a polo shirt.

00:01:20   You know what they are.

00:01:20   They're horizontal stripe rugby shirts.

00:01:22   That's all I own.

00:01:23   - Whatever, same difference.

00:01:24   They're James May shirts.

00:01:26   I guess they kind of are.

00:01:27   No, I mean, I will not dispute the value of having a uniform.

00:01:31   It doesn't really matter what the uniform is.

00:01:33   Yep, no, I envy you.

00:01:35   I kind of do have a uniform.

00:01:36   It just has more variety.

00:01:37   But the problem is all my uniforms, the sleeves shrink.

00:01:40   And then I have to-- otherwise, I would use them until they disintegrated, like my running

00:01:44   shirts that are 15 years old that I still have.

00:01:48   I feel like I am not a fashion-conscious kind of guy, but I feel like I would get bored

00:01:53   wearing the same crap every day.

00:01:54   - Everyone agrees that you are the best dressed

00:01:55   of all of us, Casey, so if that's what you're looking to hear

00:01:57   then it's--

00:01:58   - I'm not fishing for compliments.

00:02:00   That may be true, but I'm not fishing for compliments.

00:02:02   I'm just saying that I don't think of myself

00:02:04   as having any fashion sense yet.

00:02:06   - Everything's relative.

00:02:07   Among me and Marco, you have a lot of fashion sense.

00:02:10   - Oh yeah.

00:02:11   - Well, I guess that's true.

00:02:12   But I mean, regardless of fashion sense,

00:02:14   I just feel like looking down and seeing

00:02:16   the exact same uniform every day would get really boring.

00:02:19   - You don't look down and Marco doesn't care

00:02:20   what he's wearing, I don't care what I'm wearing.

00:02:22   - Yeah, that's exactly it.

00:02:23   We just want not to be pointed at and laughed at.

00:02:26   - Yeah, like we find something that lets us ignore this

00:02:29   for the rest of our lives, or at least for the next year

00:02:31   or two until these shirts all disintegrate.

00:02:34   - I guess.

00:02:35   - No, yeah, Casey, you definitely represent humanity

00:02:37   in this show.

00:02:38   (laughing)

00:02:40   - Normal, normal humanity, and let's not talk

00:02:42   of normal humanity too much.

00:02:43   Normal humanity has lots of downsides.

00:02:45   Did either one of you two actually read any of the follow-up

00:02:50   before we begin?

00:02:51   - No.

00:02:52   I at least skimmed all of it.

00:02:54   - Great, all right, well, so I also skimmed it.

00:02:56   We should just publish show notes in the chat room

00:03:00   and they can do follow up.

00:03:01   'Cause none of us have looked at it.

00:03:02   I put most of it there.

00:03:04   - Okay, would we like to start with a friend of the show,

00:03:08   Jason Snell's correction about the iPhone 6's CPUs?

00:03:13   - Yeah, so basically we said last show, I said last show,

00:03:18   someone said, I think it was me, someone said last show

00:03:20   that the iPhone 6 Plus had a slightly higher clocked CPU

00:03:24   than the 6, similar to the difference between the iPad Air

00:03:28   and the Retina iPad Mini, where the Air is like 10% faster

00:03:31   or something like that.

00:03:33   Turns out that is, I think, completely wrong,

00:03:37   or at least, like people have,

00:03:39   we've seen things all over the place here.

00:03:41   We've seen some benchmarks showing

00:03:43   that the 6 is faster than the 6 Plus

00:03:45   by some little amount like that.

00:03:47   We've seen some benchmarks saying they're the same.

00:03:49   We've seen some benchmarks saying the 6+

00:03:51   is faster than the 6.

00:03:53   So Jason Snell posted a follow-up thing.

00:03:55   He had originally said the 6+ was faster.

00:03:57   He, I think then, has corrected it and said,

00:03:59   "Actually, that was mismeasured or whatever,

00:04:02   "and it's wrong."

00:04:03   I don't think we know quite what's going on here yet, do we?

00:04:07   But I mean, there's a lot of things it could be.

00:04:09   There's things like dynamic clock speeds happening

00:04:12   where there could be throttling for thermal reasons.

00:04:15   Apple said it shouldn't happen,

00:04:16   that it can maintain the full speed all the time,

00:04:18   but we don't actually, you know,

00:04:19   we don't know what kind of conditions

00:04:20   some of these benchmarks were done in,

00:04:21   so maybe it's like, you know, extreme conditions

00:04:24   or in warm environments, who knows.

00:04:26   But regardless, there doesn't appear to be

00:04:28   a clear difference between the two that's actually reliable.

00:04:32   So there's occasionally a small difference,

00:04:33   but it kind of flip-flops as to which direction it goes,

00:04:36   and so I think it's more likely to be chalked up

00:04:38   to testing conditions or benchmarks mismeasuring things

00:04:43   than the actual differences in the CPU clock speeds.

00:04:46   Wouldn't it be nice if Apple just publish them?

00:04:48   Or at the very least, if there was like,

00:04:49   you can have like an Intel CPU,

00:04:50   like read off some registers and find out the clock speed.

00:04:53   Or like, this is all guesswork,

00:04:54   'cause it's all kind of get this benchmark app to run.

00:04:57   And like, well, does this benchmark app accurately

00:04:59   test the speed of this particular CPU?

00:05:02   Or yeah, I don't like this guesswork business.

00:05:05   But anyway, last show I had mentioned that

00:05:07   Jason had said conclusively the exact clock speeds

00:05:09   and he's now recanted.

00:05:11   And so we're back to just not knowing.

00:05:12   And we, as far as anyone knows,

00:05:13   they look like they're probably about the same,

00:05:15   but we'll see.

00:05:16   All right, and then we of course have a ton of follow-up about the Apple watch and

00:05:20   One of the most popular bits of follow-up, let me back up

00:05:24   actually

00:05:24   There are two popular bits of follow-up people saying either we are insane or we're right on the money

00:05:28   for saying that the watches will be expensive and we'll talk about that more in a moment and

00:05:32   people theorizing how you can justify the purchase procedure of

00:05:38   buying a 10 or 20 or 30 thousand dollar Apple watch and

00:05:42   what you would do once that piece of electronics gets sold and the really frustrating thing about the what you would do is that a

00:05:49   lot of people

00:05:51   Have sent in feedback saying hey if you have 18 karat gold it stands to reason you could you know

00:05:55   Melt that down or otherwise recycle it and so perhaps you'll lease the Apple watch or maybe there'll be a trade-in program or something like that

00:06:03   And this is really annoying because during the last episode I thought to myself, you know

00:06:06   I wonder if you could just like

00:06:08   trade in your watch and then you could get a new one and then during the time that you two were talking and I was

00:06:14   Reasoning through this in my head. I decided no, that's a stupid idea. I shouldn't share it and

00:06:18   Like 20 people sent it in. So the moral of the story is I should trust my instincts

00:06:24   I thought what I was actually said it

00:06:25   In fact, I thought all the ideas that have been sent to us by email and Twitter were actually mentioned offhand in the show

00:06:30   But it's obvious that the audience wants to hear more discussion of these things because many people offered

00:06:34   elaborate theories

00:06:37   Apple was gonna make this work. So we just like mentioned one or two things offhand, but

00:06:41   people want to hear expansions on these, so I figure it's worth discussing. Although you skip

00:06:45   the actually the first item in the follow-up right before this is someone who has worked in the

00:06:51   jewelry industry for 20 years says that over 5x markups on fashion and jewelry is normal. So in

00:06:57   case people wanted to put a number on what kind of what are these crazy margins that we're talking

00:07:01   about? What kind of complete disconnect between the cost of goods and the products? More than 5x

00:07:07   is routine. Yep. And so one of the examples of these theories were regarding how you could

00:07:15   handle upgrading or whatever. This was sent in by Phil Compton. Apple could have two easy

00:07:21   ways to handle the rapid obsolescence of the Apple watch. One upgrade ability and two trade-ins.

00:07:27   The upgrade ability would of course need to be done at an Apple store, but they should

00:07:30   be able to keep movements within a set of specifications that could allow easy upgrading

00:07:34   of the internals of one generation to a newer one. I assume they would always be making

00:07:39   the watch smaller, so although the same adapter maybe needed to fill the space, each new gen

00:07:42   should fit in the next." And actually, the genesis of my theory last episode that I never

00:07:47   shared so now it sounds like I fabricated it in order to sound smart, was they made

00:07:52   a lot of, well, relatively speaking, a lot of mention of, what is it, the S1? What is

00:07:57   powering this thing?

00:07:58   - Yeah, the S1 is their marketing name

00:08:01   for the entire computer in a little tiny case.

00:08:05   - Exactly.

00:08:05   - It isn't all on one chip,

00:08:07   but it's a whole bunch of components in some kind of case

00:08:10   that is most likely more for water resistance

00:08:12   than anything else.

00:08:13   - Yeah, but it made me think, you know,

00:08:14   if you keep the pinouts of that case

00:08:17   and the physical shape of that case the same,

00:08:20   even if the internals get considerably better,

00:08:23   maybe that's the way you upgrade it.

00:08:26   Is there some mechanism by which they can get

00:08:28   in there and replace the S1 and put in an S2.

00:08:31   That externally looks identical and operates identical

00:08:34   from an interface perspective,

00:08:36   but internally is twice the clock speed or what have you.

00:08:39   This all falls down though,

00:08:41   if displays get a lot better and, or,

00:08:44   well, if the displays get a lot better

00:08:46   and have different sizes or different pin outs.

00:08:48   And Jon, I'm waiting for you to blow a hole in my theory.

00:08:50   - Well, so here's the deal with the upgradeability.

00:08:54   This is definitely one of the things

00:08:55   that many different people suggested.

00:08:56   they suggested that there was a part of the watch

00:08:59   that would become obsolete,

00:09:00   and there was a part that would not come obsolete.

00:09:02   As I said, the gold case or whatever, that should be fine,

00:09:06   and presumably that's where most of the cost is.

00:09:08   You could swap out those internal stuffs,

00:09:10   they'd probably cost less than the band.

00:09:11   They're probably 50 bucks for the little S1

00:09:13   or whatever it is.

00:09:14   Here's the thing with that.

00:09:17   In Apple's history, and we'll get to this

00:09:19   if we actually do get to the iPhone 6 Plus bending,

00:09:22   Apple has always chosen, when they had a choice

00:09:24   between keep it the same thickness

00:09:25   to increase battery life or make it thinner,

00:09:27   they always choose to make it thinner.

00:09:29   And that's why we're mentioning I'm ready

00:09:31   for the iPhone 4S form factor of this watch.

00:09:34   We all assume that this is the first Apple Watch,

00:09:37   and just like the first Apple phone,

00:09:39   yeah, I'm gonna call it the Apple phone,

00:09:41   I'm gonna switch it around.

00:09:42   Instead of mistakenly saying Apple Watch,

00:09:43   I'm going to say Apple phone from now on.

00:09:46   Thanks a lot, guys.

00:09:46   - Apple touch.

00:09:47   - We all assume that they're gonna make the watch thinner

00:09:50   when they can.

00:09:50   They're not going to say, you know what,

00:09:52   let's keep the Apple Watch case exactly the same size,

00:09:55   and every year just make the battery a little bit bigger

00:09:58   and make the other components smaller or something

00:10:01   or have the S1 be swappable in and out

00:10:04   and that's the way we'll do upgrades or whatever like that.

00:10:07   This gets back to the product cycles on the watch.

00:10:10   Do we think they're gonna come up with a new watch

00:10:12   every year, every two years, every five years?

00:10:14   I think they'll do a new one every year.

00:10:16   If they do a new one every year,

00:10:17   will they try to make it thinner

00:10:18   or will they keep it the same size

00:10:19   and make the battery thicker?

00:10:20   This all goes towards upgradeability.

00:10:23   Nevermind that Apple really is not big on upgradeability,

00:10:25   period, not with their Macs, not with their iPhones,

00:10:27   not with their iPods, those days have long gone.

00:10:29   Like, my first Mac that I ever got was motherboard upgraded

00:10:33   from a Mac 128K to a Mac Plus,

00:10:35   something officially Apple used to sell and do.

00:10:39   The current Apple is a long way away from that.

00:10:41   So I have a hard time believing,

00:10:43   unless there's some really good financial reason

00:10:46   having to do with the way watches are normally sold,

00:10:49   that Apple would ever do something like this,

00:10:52   both because I just cannot see them keeping the case

00:10:56   the same over long periods,

00:10:58   and because they just want you to buy a new one.

00:11:00   Now I'm not willing to rule it out entirely,

00:11:02   simply because everything we know

00:11:03   about how Apple sells technology has to be reevaluated

00:11:06   in terms of, well, this isn't really technology,

00:11:08   this is fashion, so maybe they need a new plan.

00:11:10   And I don't know enough about fashion

00:11:11   to know if there's any precedent for this

00:11:12   in the watch world of replacing the movements

00:11:15   inside your thing and keeping the gold band

00:11:16   or something like that.

00:11:17   But right now it seems to me that the upgrading thing

00:11:22   is one of those things that nerds would like Apple to do,

00:11:26   kind of like replaceable batteries,

00:11:27   or can you just motherboard upgrade my Mac Pro

00:11:30   to a new Mac Pro instead of having me buy a new one?

00:11:32   And the answer from Apple is no, we cannot, we will not.

00:11:35   You'll just buy a new one or just use this one.

00:11:37   So I'm giving the upgrading thing, technically feasible,

00:11:41   yes, 100% technically feasible,

00:11:43   but I don't think it's something that Apple is going to do.

00:11:47   I'm giving that a maybe like thumbs down if I had to pick one and I've had to put a percentage by it

00:11:52   I'm gonna go like 80% against

00:11:54   Yeah, I would also bet strongly against it not only for all the reasons you mentioned but you know

00:11:59   Even even if you ignore the fact that they would probably almost certainly make less money over time doing it that way

00:12:04   I don't think they would want to constrain themselves and their future changes to the watch by an it by a commitment

00:12:13   Whether you know whether they said it or whether they've just been implied by past performance to keep the upgrades available

00:12:18   So, you know look at look at the massive

00:12:21   Poop fit that the world through when they change the dock connector into the lightning connector and that was like 10 years, right?

00:12:28   Yeah, 10 10 years with the same connector. I think it was

00:12:30   Yeah

00:12:30   and people people are still insanely upset and

00:12:33   thinking Apple did it just to make more money like that is a common a

00:12:37   Very very common opinion of that change is Apple just did it to make more money to make everyone buy new cables and accessories

00:12:42   If they ever made the watch upgradeable, the expectation to keep it upgradeable in the future would be so high that they would suffer such severe reputation damage and have so many angry people every time they made a backwards incompatible change.

00:12:57   change. And so that would either cause a bunch of poop fits from their customers on a regular

00:13:04   basis like every few years whenever they make a breaking change or it would constrain them

00:13:11   from oh well we'd like to make this change in next year's version but that would break

00:13:16   compatibility with upgrades and so we kind of can't or shouldn't do that. And I don't

00:13:20   see Apple ever wanting to be constrained that way in the design of such an important product

00:13:24   in their lineup.

00:13:25   So who does upgradeability benefit?

00:13:28   That's the real question you're like,

00:13:30   what are the benefits of upgradeability?

00:13:32   Is it a benefit to Apple?

00:13:33   Is it a benefit to consumers?

00:13:35   I think most people coming at it from the consumer's

00:13:37   perspective is, hey, if I spend--

00:13:39   they're imagining for the sake of argument

00:13:43   that they have enough money to buy

00:13:45   the super expensive Apple Watch.

00:13:46   And then they're further imagining that despite having

00:13:49   all that money, they also don't want to spend that money again

00:13:51   anytime soon.

00:13:52   So they would like to protect their investment in this Apple

00:13:54   watch by saying I spent $1200 on this stainless steel Apple watch with a stainless steel band,

00:13:59   now the new one is out and has a faster processor or it uses less power, I don't want to spend

00:14:05   all that money again.

00:14:06   And then it's the same thing, people want to upgrade prices for everything.

00:14:09   And if I told you how much my upgrade for my 128k that I didn't pay, obviously my parents

00:14:12   did too, plus it was you'd probably die and today's money is probably like three grand

00:14:15   or something.

00:14:16   But anyway, they assume that the upgrade will cost less money than buying the entire thing

00:14:19   outright again.

00:14:20   does a consumer benefit to say I bought this thing once the better thing is out

00:14:25   but I don't want to buy the better thing I want you to take as much as you can

00:14:28   from my current thing and just swap out the parts that are not good for the

00:14:32   better parts to save money that doesn't benefit Apple at all just mark I was

00:14:36   saying before this is gonna make Apple more money no this is not going to make

00:14:38   Apple more money like overall they will the average selling price of their

00:14:44   watches will go down if people can do these upgrades it does benefit consumers

00:14:49   but does it benefit consumers in a way that Apple feels like we should do this because it will make the experience better for consumer

00:14:54   and I don't even think like if you had to pretend you're

00:14:56   You know magnanimous Apple and say well, we'd like to do that

00:14:59   But we feel replacing the parts does not give the cohesive experience of the into we've designed the Apple watch too as an entire device

00:15:06   And it's it's a balanced system where everything works together

00:15:09   And if you would just take the insides out of the app, you know, there's all sorts of crazy BS reasons you come

00:15:14   But some of them have some merit and like,

00:15:16   oh look, are they designing a product

00:15:18   or are they designing serious parts

00:15:19   that you can assemble into a product?

00:15:20   Like, can you just take the S1 out and put the S2 in

00:15:23   and suddenly your watch gets faster

00:15:25   and it takes less power?

00:15:26   Yeah, maybe for a generation or two,

00:15:29   but like Marco said, at a certain point,

00:15:30   you have to have a breaking design change.

00:15:33   Or you just want to.

00:15:34   You can do things in fashion

00:15:36   and just make it the same all the time.

00:15:37   Fashion has to change.

00:15:39   So I think this is mostly a tech nerd fantasy

00:15:43   having to do with people who probably would never drop that much money on a watch anyway,

00:15:47   even if they could afford it because they would feel like it's a waste, but then can

00:15:50   put themselves into that position and say, "But if I did do that, I would still have

00:15:54   my instincts that think it's a ridiculous expense, but I would want the new thing anyway,

00:15:58   but I wouldn't want to pay for it."

00:15:59   And it's a weird...

00:16:01   I don't think this actual character...

00:16:03   Casey can bring up the user story index cards.

00:16:06   I don't think this actual character that needs upgradability for the watch to be a viable

00:16:12   thing exists.

00:16:13   just a sort of a fantasy we're spinning out right now. Now the second item on this thing trade-ins

00:16:17   is an entirely different thing and I think that is way more plausible because Apple already does

00:16:21   that with stuff they have now. They will you know take your old stuff, most of them just take it and

00:16:25   recycle it but like give me your old thing for a discount on the new thing that I entirely see as

00:16:32   being plausible especially if it's made of precious metals but that's different than upgradeability.

00:16:35   Yeah I think the like recycling or trade-in approach is way more likely because as you

00:16:40   they already do it for certain things, you're right about that, they already do it, and

00:16:45   it just makes more sense. It avoids all of the issues of the upgradeability kind of constraining

00:16:50   their options and people's expectations thereof. It avoids all of that. And it sounds environmentally

00:16:57   friendly and it seems economically somewhat responsible if you want to upgrade and you

00:17:02   can get a good amount of money for your stainless steel one or whatever.

00:17:05   The gold one you're gonna get serious money for because that's you know, but this is the metal itself is

00:17:10   Innately valuable Apple can take it and melt it down and recycle it into new Apple watches and they will give you good money

00:17:16   They won't just give you like 50 bucks or like saved you the recycling cost

00:17:19   They will give you the good money for a gold trade-in

00:17:21   You know what? I'm thinking about and this is taking just a half step backwards is a lot of us will

00:17:28   spend a

00:17:31   somewhere between $500 and $1000 every year or every other year on a new phone.

00:17:36   And just for the sake of conversation, let's say it's every year and let's say it's

00:17:40   an even $1000 to make the math easy.

00:17:43   And let's say an average salary in the US is $50,000.

00:17:46   Again, just for the sake of making the math easy.

00:17:49   So if you get a new phone, which is $1000 and you have a $50,000 salary, that's 2%

00:17:54   of your gross salary is $1000.

00:17:59   So if you make $1.5 million, which granted is an unbelievable shed load of money, then

00:18:07   $30,000 is 2% of it.

00:18:10   And so what I'm driving at is even if an Apple Watch is $30K, if you're making a

00:18:16   million and a half as probably more people in at least the United States do than I care

00:18:22   to admit to myself, then getting a new $30,000 watch every couple of years, it's the same

00:18:27   is one of us getting a new iPhone every year or two. Everything is relative. And although

00:18:35   the market is surely smaller than the millions upon millions upon millions of iPhones that

00:18:40   are sold annually, it's still not a bad setup, especially since I would assume the markup,

00:18:46   as we spoke about earlier, is just tremendous. Yeah, it's worth reiterating again that we

00:18:51   keep concentrating on the high end just because this type of product is different for Apple,

00:18:55   type of fashion product where the price is so crazily out of whack but they're

00:18:59   you know volume wise they're gonna sell Apple hopes tons of the cheap one and so

00:19:05   such a small nut it'll be like the Mac Pro such a small number of these

00:19:09   expensive watches are gonna be sold that I doubt first of all I doubt Apple will

00:19:13   break it down for us because they never do but I think we can probably you know

00:19:16   or a Stadu or somebody will do the math and try to say it's reasonable to assume

00:19:20   that percentage wise you know 90% of Apple watches sold were the cheap one and

00:19:24   Then 10% with the super expensive one and that yeah, you do make a lot of money of it

00:19:28   But like really this is that's the thing about this this type of market is

00:19:32   Apple wants to go all the way up to the top and the top is really high and it's I

00:19:37   Maybe it's about exactly that I would love to see the breakdown of like how many Mac pros are sold versus how many?

00:19:42   You know of the reasonably priced max. I think it'll be even more extreme with this expensive watch

00:19:48   We're just obsessing over it because it's just such a novelty and we just can't figure out how it's going to work within

00:19:53   Apple's current business and customers and the way they sell things and everything else.

00:19:59   Our first sponsor this week is a new sponsor, but they aren't new to me.

00:20:04   It is Mobelux.

00:20:05   Oh, alright!

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00:23:18   Thanks a lot to our friends at Mobileux for sponsoring.

00:23:20   Really, I cannot recommend them enough.

00:23:22   - All right, let's keep talking about Apple Watch.

00:23:24   - Oh, do we have to?

00:23:26   - Yes, we do.

00:23:26   - It isn't even out yet.

00:23:27   - I know, but that doesn't stop us.

00:23:30   I mean, come on.

00:23:31   - We've got several more months of this.

00:23:33   - We have months of follow-up.

00:23:34   - It's never gonna end.

00:23:35   Another thing that we had a lot of discussion about

00:23:38   was how do you sell a 10, 20, $30,000 watch

00:23:44   in an existing Apple store.

00:23:46   And an anonymous Apple employee wrote in to say,

00:23:51   "Many existing Apple stores have private business

00:23:53   briefing rooms with the entire product line

00:23:55   not tethered to tables.

00:23:57   They exist as a space for Apple to meet with businesses

00:24:00   and discuss deals and how to integrate Apple.

00:24:02   These spaces are a perfect place to showcase

00:24:04   high-end watches to customers who would like

00:24:05   a private area away from the crowds.

00:24:08   All I really want to know is how do I get that kind of access

00:24:11   because--

00:24:12   - You gotta buy Mac Pros, Casey.

00:24:13   You are all about you are evil well played but you're evil because our Apple store our local Apple store

00:24:20   Just moved a few spots down in the local mall and now it's actually about the right size for the area in which we live

00:24:28   But goodness before it moved. It was like a locker room in there. No matter what time of day you went in

00:24:33   So I did not know this was a thing

00:24:36   but apparently this is a thing and I'm assuming if you're coming in looking like the kind of

00:24:42   Gentleman or woman who is going to buy a $30,000 watch not about how you look

00:24:47   It's what you were just asked. I would like to see the Apple watch edition

00:24:51   They say well you have to come into the back of this yeah this as Marco said last show

00:24:55   I think it's clear that Apple's stores are due for a

00:24:59   redesign or an overhaul and

00:25:02   Presumably someplace where you could sell really expensive gold watches would be part of that overhaul

00:25:07   But in the meantime whenever that happens to land in the meantime the fact that these rooms apparently exist that we don't

00:25:12   don't know about because none of us except for Marco would ever be invited into them.

00:25:17   It's nice to know that they have an out for some existing stores at least.

00:25:21   Exactly.

00:25:22   All right.

00:25:23   There was a tweet from Scott McIntyre.

00:25:27   He noted something that I had not realized that the Apple Watch Edition, which is a terrible

00:25:33   name, but it's the expensive Apple Watch.

00:25:35   Which do you think is worse, the Apple Watch Edition edition or the Ferrari LaFerrari?

00:25:40   La Ferrari but only by shade.

00:25:42   - No, I think the Apple Watch Edition is worse

00:25:44   because the Ferrari's way better than that watch

00:25:46   and you can forgive a lot.

00:25:47   (laughing)

00:25:48   You can forgive a lot for a Ferrari.

00:25:49   - And it isn't just a Camry with a gold coating.

00:25:51   - Yeah, exactly.

00:25:53   - No, it's just a Fiat with a gold coating, right?

00:25:55   Do they still own Fiat? - No, no.

00:25:58   - Or Fiat, Federico's gonna kill me.

00:26:00   Anyway, so.

00:26:02   - By the way, just while we're on the topic of Federico,

00:26:04   sorry to interrupt. - Yeah, it's all right.

00:26:05   - I thought it was interesting.

00:26:06   So there's these rumors that there's gonna be

00:26:08   a 12 inch quote iPad Pro coming out

00:26:12   like possibly next spring or something.

00:26:14   And I'm not sure I believe that,

00:26:15   but assuming that even if it does,

00:26:18   on a recent episode of, what's the new prompt,

00:26:20   it's called Connected, I always forget the names.

00:26:22   All right, so the new prompt called Connected,

00:26:25   a recent episode of that, Federico mentioned in passing,

00:26:27   he said he wouldn't buy that iPad Pro.

00:26:31   And I was thinking like, if this thing is real,

00:26:33   if Federico Viticci does not want to buy an iPad Pro,

00:26:37   Who will?

00:26:38   I would.

00:26:39   Really?

00:26:40   iPad Pro is my thing.

00:26:41   How long have I been talking about iPad Pro?

00:26:44   Since like before the iPad was released.

00:26:46   Yeah, that was me saying all that stuff.

00:26:49   Those were the past episodes.

00:26:50   Yes, I will buy a gigantic iPad.

00:26:52   Why?

00:26:53   It's gotta be retina obviously.

00:26:54   Why?

00:26:55   Because the way I use my iPad is not as a, you know, I use it like a magazine.

00:27:01   I like large format magazines.

00:27:02   I didn't like it when Edge magazines shrink to the smaller, shrunk to the smaller format.

00:27:06   I think next-gen also shrunk.

00:27:07   I always know magazines going downhill

00:27:09   when they shrink to the wired magazine.

00:27:10   I like that big format too.

00:27:12   I want big, not 27 inch, you know, but like a 12 inch,

00:27:16   I think that's fine.

00:27:18   And I want it to be faster and have multitasking

00:27:20   and do split screen and do all sorts of awesome stuff

00:27:21   like that.

00:27:22   We talked about this, don't you remember?

00:27:24   - I do, but it just, I think I've tried to force myself

00:27:28   to forget that you want an iPad that in almost no way

00:27:31   resembles an iPad.

00:27:32   - No, it's still a big screen that you hold in your hand

00:27:34   it resembles an iPad in all ways,

00:27:36   except it's slightly bigger, that's it.

00:27:38   And of course it's faster inside

00:27:39   and has more RAM and blah, blah, blah, blah,

00:27:41   but it totally resembles an iPad.

00:27:42   - Anyway, did we even finish this tweet?

00:27:47   I didn't even get through finishing a tweet, Dan.

00:27:49   - No, Scott McIntyre was saying

00:27:50   the digital crown matches the strap.

00:27:52   And yes, I knew that, I thought everybody knew that,

00:27:54   but he was offering it as an idea of saying,

00:27:57   well, that means maybe the straps aren't interchangeable.

00:28:01   Like they showed in the video,

00:28:02   the straps coming in and out.

00:28:03   It's a major selling point of the watch.

00:28:05   I can't believe some people still going,

00:28:06   "Well, you can't swap it now

00:28:07   because the little digital crown is color coded."

00:28:09   So what?

00:28:10   So what?

00:28:11   If the little crown is red, can you only get red bands?

00:28:14   No, you use black ones, you can use white ones.

00:28:16   I don't know anything about fashion, but I know that.

00:28:17   It's all right, right?

00:28:18   - Look at the cases for the iPhone 5C.

00:28:21   Half the point of all these different colors

00:28:24   was that you can mix and match them.

00:28:26   Remember, I think it was Schiller had talked about,

00:28:28   "Oh, you can have a blue phone with a red case

00:28:31   for this mood and a white case for that mood or something like that.

00:28:34   I forget exactly what he said, but you're exactly right that it would, they were

00:28:38   talking about flipping things up and deliberately getting clashing colors to be

00:28:42   in so everyone can be their own special snowflake.

00:28:45   And if you don't want that, buy it, get one with the neutral color, get one with

00:28:47   a black crown, because I'm sure they're all for that.

00:28:49   They have, I think the only color of crowns I saw was like a maroonish red that went

00:28:53   with like the dark red band and then a black one, but yeah, the fact that the

00:28:56   crowns match does not mean that the straps are not going to be interchangeable.

00:28:59   They're totally interchangeable.

00:29:00   All right, moving on, this was my addition to the follow-up.

00:29:06   Speaking of a friend of the show, Jason Snell, I was reading his Apple Watch Edition review.

00:29:12   Should we just call this the Apple Watch Apple, like the Ferrari LaFerrari?

00:29:17   So anyways, he said in his review, "Yes, there's a special box.

00:29:22   It's covered in leather.

00:29:24   Inside is a magnetic charging cradle, and on the back of the box base is a slot into

00:29:29   which you plug a lightning connector. That's right. The Apple Watch Edition is so fancy

00:29:33   that the box is its own accessory. And I bring that up for a couple reasons. Firstly, I didn't

00:29:38   know that that was a thing. And secondly, how is that something that Apple considers

00:29:49   the right thing to do? And if you're going to stand here and tell me that, "Oh, a $10,000

00:29:54   watch is way too expensive," look at what they're doing for the freaking box.

00:29:58   I wonder, does that mean it doesn't come with the charging cable?

00:30:01   Yeah, I can understand.

00:30:02   It's basically a dock.

00:30:03   Like, you know, remember when the iPhones used to come with docks?

00:30:05   I think the original came with a dock, did it?

00:30:07   I don't remember.

00:30:08   I think that's right.

00:30:09   But anyway, they used to sell docks.

00:30:10   But this seems like if you buy the Apple Watch Edition, it comes with essentially a dock

00:30:14   which also happens to be the box, which is a nice place for you to put the watch when

00:30:17   you're not using it, which also charges it.

00:30:20   But I'm sure Apple will sell the little charging doohickey thing for all the regular people

00:30:24   who don't buy the edition edition.

00:30:27   So you know it's it's all the same charging amongst all the boxes

00:30:30   but yeah this type of luxury thing of like how can we make this as

00:30:33   Fancy as possible and they do that with all their products like the boxes are so beautiful and you open them up

00:30:39   But it's all disposable stuff you throw away the cardboard box you throw away the little plastic pieces that you peel off and everything

00:30:44   This I assume you won't throw away because it's an actual accessory

00:30:48   What else is in here? Oh a lot of feedback about chip and pin you want to cover this John because I'm gonna stumble all over

00:30:56   Yeah, I don't I still don't understand also

00:30:58   We are getting glimpses of what payment is like in the rest of the world from individual people's email

00:31:03   So if these people are wrong, I'm sure we go right in and tell us

00:31:05   So Martin Gordon wrote in to say that he thinks it's worth clarifying that the u.s

00:31:10   Won't be getting chip and pin anytime soon instead

00:31:12   We're moving over to the nastier chip and signature our credit cards will come with chips

00:31:15   But we won't be issued a pin nor will be will we be required to enter a pin during a transaction

00:31:20   So that's kind of crappy

00:31:22   We'll have chips in our cards

00:31:24   But we'll have still have to sign our name on a piece of paper for transactions that require that type of thing

00:31:28   It doesn't surprise me, but that's if this is true. It is disappointing

00:31:33   Tom Phillips says chip and pin is so 2004 over the last year or so in the UK

00:31:39   We've had the introduction of contactless debit and credit cards colloquially called just contactless you pay a chip enabled terminals or dedicated

00:31:45   Contactless points for anything under 20 pounds, and I have no idea how much that is in real money

00:31:51   So he's saying if Apple pay were to arrive in UK Europe

00:31:54   I do I do wonder whether would succeed our payment system isn't as archaic as the u.s

00:31:58   With contactless becoming relatively well established and popular are the benefits of Apple pay attracted enough to get people to switch

00:32:03   I'm leaning towards no

00:32:05   So this gets back to Tim Cook's big thing about

00:32:07   It's not just that you get to wave a doohickey in front of a thing to pay for your stuff

00:32:10   It's that you get to not have to bring your wallet with you

00:32:12   You don't have to bring all I got to render my phone my car keys and my wallet

00:32:16   If you want to go out and you want to have a way to pay for things

00:32:20   you can just bring your phone and I guess you just hope the battery doesn't run out before the

00:32:23   Bar tab comes at the end of the night anyway

00:32:25   He's right like it

00:32:28   Apple pay is a lot a lot easier to sell

00:32:31   At sort of the dawning of contactless payment here in the US than it is in other countries where contactless is already well established

00:32:38   Yeah, I don't know how Apple's gonna do there

00:32:41   And if it seemed like all the deals Apple announced with the people who are accepting payments with the exception of like McDonald's and stuff

00:32:46   was international, but a lot of the other stores

00:32:49   looked like they were US only.

00:32:50   So since we live in the US, we'd probably be fine

00:32:55   if it just revolutionized payment in the US

00:32:56   'cause everything here is so horrible.

00:32:57   But yeah, I don't know how well it's gonna do

00:32:59   in other countries.

00:33:00   Some more Apple Pay.

00:33:04   Dave Copeland wrote in to say,

00:33:06   "In the US, the fraud policy of the banks

00:33:08   "heavily favor the cardholder.

00:33:09   "A cardholder can pretty easily have charges removed

00:33:13   "by calling the bank who issued the charge.

00:33:15   In the UK and Europe, the banks are not so lenient with the cardholders and it's much

00:33:18   more difficult to have charges removed.

00:33:20   That's why chip and PIN is so prevalent across the pond and that's why waiter brings the

00:33:23   charging device to you rather than whisking your card away to the back.

00:33:26   So that's another, you know, differences in the different payment environments of who

00:33:31   accepts the, who deals with fraud.

00:33:36   If something goes wrong, who has to pay for it?

00:33:37   In the US, we're all used to, this is one good thing about the US, I guess from a consumer's

00:33:40   perspective sort of, kind of, is that if someone steals your credit card and makes a bunch

00:33:44   bogus charges with it or some sort of fraud happens we all just assume oh I'll call the

00:33:48   credit card company and they'll just take care of it.

00:33:50   Like the credit card company just eats all that because they make so much more money

00:33:53   having huge interest rates on everyone who doesn't pay their bills on time which is why

00:33:57   they still make tons of money in the US.

00:33:59   And so they're totally willing to eat all those other charges.

00:34:02   We just had yet another one of our credit cards stolen online a couple weeks back and

00:34:07   we're just like oh no big deal yeah they bought a bunch of stuff but we know we're not gonna

00:34:10   have to pay for that.

00:34:11   Apparently in other countries it's not that way and so there is a demand to be more secure and not just have you know

00:34:17   Here you go waiter take my credit card walk away with it

00:34:19   I don't care what if you go if you skim it or buy something with it online or whatever

00:34:23   I'm just gonna have those charges reversed and they'll send me a new card and I won't have to pay for any of it

00:34:27   But that's not true in other countries. So they have much more secure payment systems. That's interesting

00:34:30   And his final point is something I've learned firsthand at one of the first e-commerce sites

00:34:35   I made I guess what 10 years ago now 12 years ago a long time ago

00:34:40   is that a lot of these things you see on websites

00:34:44   and in payment processing things like the CVV code

00:34:46   where you have to enter those little three digit number

00:34:49   to pay for something with the credit card

00:34:51   or signatures or anything like that,

00:34:52   that's entirely at the discretion of the person,

00:34:56   of the company selling something.

00:34:58   So when you do credit card transactions online,

00:35:00   you send the information to the payment processor

00:35:02   and they send you back a score that says,

00:35:04   here's how trustworthy this is.

00:35:05   And you can decide I'm gonna go forward with scores of,

00:35:08   you know, above whatever value.

00:35:10   So they'll send you back something like,

00:35:12   well, you know, the card has a middle name,

00:35:15   but they didn't enter middle name

00:35:17   and the street address doesn't quite match,

00:35:18   but everything else in the address matches.

00:35:20   Do you want to proceed with this transaction?

00:35:22   If you say yes, you know, the relationship

00:35:24   between the business and the credit card processor,

00:35:26   there's some relationship there over who covers

00:35:28   what percent of fraud or whatever.

00:35:30   So it's up to the merchant basically to decide

00:35:33   how flexible do you wanna be?

00:35:36   And I could say as someone who's implemented this,

00:35:39   you tend to be motivated highly to be very flexible,

00:35:42   believe it or not.

00:35:43   Because if you are super picky and like,

00:35:45   well, their address says, you know, 123 Main Street,

00:35:48   and the credit card address on file has 123 Main ST,

00:35:52   and ST is not the same as street,

00:35:53   and our processor is too stupid to figure that out,

00:35:56   and so it doesn't give it a perfect score or match on that.

00:35:58   Do we wanna go forward?

00:35:59   If you only went forward on like the highest possible score,

00:36:02   you would never make any money

00:36:03   because you would never accept anyone's credit cards.

00:36:06   You know, they got the zip code almost right,

00:36:09   or they got it right but they didn't add

00:36:10   like the plus four on the end of it.

00:36:12   Do you wanna go forward?

00:36:13   Everything lowers your score if you're not exactly right.

00:36:15   And so you have to decide what risk

00:36:17   you're willing to tolerate,

00:36:18   and usually you're willing to go forward

00:36:20   even if they miss tons of stuff.

00:36:21   Like if they're slightly off on their address,

00:36:23   don't quite get the name right,

00:36:25   didn't enter the zip code but the card number is right

00:36:27   and don't have a CVV.

00:36:29   He's like, just go forward because 99% of the time

00:36:31   it'll be fine.

00:36:32   And the other percentage of the time,

00:36:33   you just eat that and it'll work out.

00:36:35   So that's something else to keep in mind

00:36:36   with all of this secure payment type stuff.

00:36:39   Individual, that's why I imagine,

00:36:41   I don't know if this is to be the case,

00:36:42   but that's why I imagine a lot of places now

00:36:44   don't require you to sign your name anymore

00:36:46   is because the risk environment has changed.

00:36:48   They say, look, we're not getting any additional security

00:36:50   from having somebody scribble something on a piece of paper

00:36:52   for their $5 credit card purchase.

00:36:54   We'll just swipe the card and let's go.

00:36:58   - All right.

00:36:59   Do you want to tell me about streamlined Apple Watch shape ideas?

00:37:02   Yeah, that was in there from last week.

00:37:04   I'm trying to remember what I was thinking of.

00:37:06   I know the broad topic was, remember the first Apple Watch show, I was saying I was disappointed

00:37:11   that it looked like a little lunchbox on your wrist, just like a little rectangle with straps

00:37:15   coming out of it.

00:37:16   I was hoping that they would do something to blend the strap into the main part of the

00:37:24   watch in a way that was like forward thinking, like, well, now it's got to be a big chunky

00:37:27   thing in your wrist.

00:37:28   five years from now won't be quite as chunky and it's best to go with an aesthetic that

00:37:33   will seem natural then. But they didn't. They didn't try to mask that at all.

00:37:36   And there were lots of ideas from listeners about what they could do with a more streamlined shape.

00:37:44   If they had a sort of a taper from the big thick part with the battery and the screen

00:37:48   to the strap, they could still have removable straps. The straps would just have to incorporate

00:37:52   that taper somehow or whatever. But people were full of ideas of what they could do with that

00:37:56   extra volume. One of the most popular ideas is why don't they fill that place

00:38:01   with battery? Why don't those little wedges that lead from the fat part to the thin part?

00:38:04   That's just another opportunity to shove battery in there. I don't like that idea

00:38:08   because one, I don't like the idea of having battery wrapped around my wrist

00:38:11   because lithium-ion batteries can get very hot and catch fire and stuff and I

00:38:16   guess that's also true of the one that's inside the watch but that's inside metal

00:38:19   and I feel a little bit better about that. And two, I don't think lithium-ion

00:38:22   batteries take very kindly to being bent which means that the taper would have to

00:38:26   to be stiff and once you make the taper stiff,

00:38:29   then the number of different risks that it can fit on

00:38:33   is drastically altered.

00:38:34   'Cause like, you do not want, like it's bad enough

00:38:36   that you've got the stiff little rectangular part, right?

00:38:39   If you made little wings hanging off of the thing

00:38:42   that were also stiff because they contain battery,

00:38:44   then they would sit very awkwardly on people

00:38:46   with either make it so it sits okay on people

00:38:48   with very large wrists, but then it looks ridiculous

00:38:50   on people with small or vice versa.

00:38:51   So that I think is a non-starter.

00:38:53   If they made a taper, it would have to,

00:38:54   I don't think there's anything useful you can do with that taper.

00:38:58   Other than maybe put some sensors in it if you wanted to have the pulse sensors off-centered

00:39:02   or something else in there or shove an accelerometer in there.

00:39:06   But I don't think you can use it for battery and I don't think you can make it stiff.

00:39:08   And anyway, that's not the direction Apple went in.

00:39:10   But I think that's all I was thinking of with this one-line follow-up item.

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00:42:46   OK.

00:42:47   So we got a lot of feedback--

00:42:49   well, I thought-- about the casing of the text watch.

00:42:55   What?

00:42:55   Are we still talking about the watch?

00:42:57   Yes.

00:42:58   Hey, Jon insists that we got to do all this follow up.

00:43:01   It's not that long.

00:43:02   It's the quickies.

00:43:02   Robert Thompson brought up something I thought was funny.

00:43:05   We were talking about the small caps thing with the watch.

00:43:08   And I said, well, with the little Apple logo in front

00:43:11   of it, and it's kind of silly.

00:43:12   We just write it out, Apple Watch,

00:43:13   but they always use the little symbol

00:43:14   and when they do it in slides,

00:43:16   like well we've got a precedent with Apple TV

00:43:17   where they show the little Apple logo

00:43:19   and I'm like well of course TV is always capitalized,

00:43:21   it's you know, short for television or whatever,

00:43:23   but Robert Thompson points out that when they do Apple TV,

00:43:25   and I'd forgotten about this, they do lowercase TV,

00:43:28   so so much for that theory, they do the little Apple

00:43:30   and then the lowercase T with a little curl on the bottom

00:43:32   and anyway, there's no rhyme or reason to this.

00:43:35   Or so we thought until Jim sent us something that said,

00:43:41   references a classic vocabulary with the all caps,

00:43:43   like Omega, Rolex, Tag, or Tog, I don't know,

00:43:46   and that other thing that starts with a B

00:43:48   that I'm not gonna pronounce.

00:43:49   Apparently they do all uppercase

00:43:50   in their name brand things on their watches as well.

00:43:53   So maybe Apple's trying to go with that.

00:43:55   And again, I think it's crazy to do that

00:43:57   and just use the word watch.

00:43:59   It is like a silly parody of Rolex, Omega, also watch.

00:44:04   - All right, let me explain this to everybody.

00:44:08   Apple TV is lower cased in the marketing logo

00:44:11   where it's the Apple logo followed by lower cased TV

00:44:14   because somebody thought it looked good at the time.

00:44:17   Apple Watch, when it's spelled in the marketing way

00:44:19   with the Apple logo followed by the all small caps watch,

00:44:22   is that way because somebody thought it looked good that way

00:44:25   most likely because it's printed very small on the watch

00:44:28   and it's very small lettering looks great

00:44:29   when it's in small caps.

00:44:30   That is why it's that way.

00:44:31   It is marketing reasons only, it doesn't matter.

00:44:34   - You think they're gonna put the little Apple logo

00:44:36   on the watch next to the word watch?

00:44:38   like Apple logo watch.

00:44:39   - Yeah, didn't they already show that they are doing that?

00:44:42   - I don't know.

00:44:43   I know they put it up on the slide when they introduced it,

00:44:45   but that's, I didn't know they were gonna have it

00:44:47   on the watch itself.

00:44:48   - We've seen pictures of the back in the video and stuff.

00:44:50   I'm pretty sure that does, it doesn't matter.

00:44:51   Either way, it doesn't matter.

00:44:53   They thought it looked good, that's why it's there.

00:44:55   There was not, I guarantee you,

00:44:56   there was no thought put into,

00:44:58   oh well, it's different from the way we capitalize Apple TV.

00:45:01   I guarantee you, no one brought that up and no one cares.

00:45:03   - You can change the capitalization

00:45:05   and you can change whether you put a little Apple logo,

00:45:07   but it's gonna be hard to change the name

00:45:08   and the name is still Watch.

00:45:10   And I guess the name is still TV too.

00:45:12   Apple TV somehow sounds better to me than Apple.

00:45:16   Maybe I'll just get used to it,

00:45:17   but I feel like I still have not gotten used to MacBook,

00:45:19   so I think I'm gonna hold a grudge against this one.

00:45:22   - MacBook is permanently awkward, I'll give you that.

00:45:24   PowerBook was such a great name and MacBook was so awkward.

00:45:27   For whatever it's worth, I did think Apple TV at first

00:45:31   was extremely awkward and then I got used to it

00:45:32   and didn't care anymore.

00:45:33   But I also don't talk about it that much

00:45:35   'cause who cares, it's Apple TV.

00:45:36   - Yeah.

00:45:37   - All right.

00:45:39   And then John, would you like to defend yourself

00:45:42   regarding iWatch?

00:45:43   - No, I keep making that mistake.

00:45:47   I'm not doing it on purpose.

00:45:48   I'm trying to get better.

00:45:50   - So in the follow-up, Nathan Watkins Jr. sent us

00:45:54   that Microsoft paid the NFL 400 million to use the Surface

00:45:58   and a couple of commentators still called them iPads.

00:46:00   And so I assumed that you had placed that in the follow-up

00:46:03   strictly to defend your erroneous--

00:46:05   - Oh no, that's an interesting story.

00:46:07   Like, we're talking about watch being a generic term,

00:46:10   but no name that you pick can be defended against

00:46:14   whatever the term is for like Kleenex,

00:46:16   where the name brand becomes genericized into meaning,

00:46:20   do you have a Kleenex for me?

00:46:21   Or, God forbid, if you live in the south and someone says,

00:46:24   do you want a Coke?

00:46:25   And I say, yeah, what kind?

00:46:26   Oh, give me a Sprite, yeah, I know.

00:46:28   Anyway, anything can be genericized, anything.

00:46:30   You are not defended against that by picking watch,

00:46:33   by picking iPad.

00:46:35   little tablet things are so defined by the iPad product

00:46:38   in the same way, I guess, tissues are so defined

00:46:40   by the Kleenex brand that the commentators

00:46:43   in these NFL programs couldn't help but say,

00:46:45   oh, look at those guys in the sidelines holding iPads.

00:46:47   They're not, they're Microsoft Surface tablets.

00:46:49   But iPad is the word that is the placeholder

00:46:52   in lots of people's minds for a tablet thing,

00:46:55   even more so than I think iPhone is for smartphone

00:46:57   'cause that I think is, you know,

00:46:59   Android sells more than the iPhone

00:47:01   and it wasn't that far behind,

00:47:02   but Apple was so far ahead in the tablets,

00:47:04   They were only a company that made any tablet that anyone cared about at all

00:47:07   That was any worth a damn at all for so long like it was a year two years before I guess the Amazon

00:47:12   Tablets came out or whatever that in the public consciousness if you were holding a thing that looked like a disembodied screen

00:47:17   It was an iPad so now poor Microsoft pays 400 million dollars to get

00:47:21   Surface into the hands of all these NFL people and the commentators just called them iPads in the same way

00:47:26   They might call a tissue Kleenex even though it's not Kleenex brand

00:47:29   So I feel bad for Microsoft here

00:47:31   But my main point in putting this in is that no name you pick even if it's a name you totally make up like iPad

00:47:37   Or you know or Kleenex or anything else you're always at risk of being genericized

00:47:42   Indeed and then another piece of follow-up that I put in a while back. There's more I know no hey

00:47:48   I was trying to curb it, but we're almost done for plenty time for the stuff

00:47:52   But the King told us he decreed that we will do all of the f you

00:47:57   Anyway, so I like everyone else hates the if Steve were alive

00:48:01   I can't think of the word I'm looking for but but retort I guess for lack of a better word

00:48:06   But but trope thank you. That is that is a much better word for it

00:48:10   But somebody posted a little while ago a really really really great write-up about

00:48:16   How the Apple keynote announcing the six the six plus the watch?

00:48:20   Perhaps would have gone different

00:48:23   gone differently had Steve done it in the typical Steve style and if the whole if Steve were alive thing also really turns you

00:48:31   off just forget that and just

00:48:33   Read this this page which we'll put in the show notes

00:48:37   just as a general

00:48:40   Alternative approach to the keynote and there were certainly some like maybe not factual things

00:48:45   But there was some little idiosyncrasies about this that I didn't totally care for but overall

00:48:50   I do think that this approach to the keynote just sounded better in principle to me

00:48:57   Than the keynote we got and I don't know if either of you two read this and I or had any thoughts about it

00:49:02   But I definitely think it's worth those of you listening to read it at your convenience because it was very good

00:49:08   Yeah, I read it. It's on it's on jiggity.com

00:49:11   And apparently this is written by a person named Jong Moon Kim

00:49:14   And I apologize if I mispronounced that I

00:49:18   I saw this being spread around and I thought,

00:49:21   as probably many listeners thought when he first saw this,

00:49:23   I thought, oh God, it's gonna be somebody complaining

00:49:26   that Tim isn't Steve, basically.

00:49:28   And for some reason I eventually read it

00:49:31   against my better judgment.

00:49:33   And it really did surprise me with,

00:49:36   I thought for sure, again, like as you said,

00:49:37   I thought it was gonna be just complaints

00:49:39   that Tim is not Steve.

00:49:40   And 'cause Tim can't be Steve

00:49:43   and he's not trying to be Steve, he's trying to be Tim.

00:49:45   And that's, I think, for the best.

00:49:48   but, 'cause I think we've seen over time

00:49:50   from other tech companies, people who try to imitate

00:49:53   Steve Jobs' presentation style always fail

00:49:56   and it's really painful.

00:49:57   Like, if you've seen like, when Zuckerberg did it,

00:50:00   Jeff Bezos tries to do it, God knows everybody

00:50:03   from Samsung tries to do it, like, it's painful.

00:50:07   And, you know, if you just try to be yourself,

00:50:08   it's a much better idea.

00:50:11   Anyway, so, I read this and there was a lot in there

00:50:15   that I was like, you know, actually,

00:50:17   that's a really good point, why didn't they do it that way?

00:50:19   Or yeah, that would have actually been better.

00:50:23   And they plausibly could have done that.

00:50:24   And the main focus of it I think is,

00:50:28   and we've seen other people talk about this too,

00:50:32   our friend Ben Thompson talked about this a lot as well.

00:50:34   In the presentation, Tim basically introduces the watch,

00:50:41   not by saying here's why this is necessary,

00:50:45   but just by showing it, just being like,

00:50:47   here's this thing we built, it's really cool, look.

00:50:49   And there it is, and there's the planet,

00:50:51   and the sun rises above the planet,

00:50:53   and then this watch comes in,

00:50:55   and it's like a watch spaceship,

00:50:57   and you see all the cool light reflecting off of it,

00:50:58   then you see watches spinning around for five minutes,

00:51:01   and then Johnny Ives in his white world talking about it,

00:51:03   and it just really, it assumes,

00:51:06   the presumption of the video was,

00:51:09   this is really cool and you need to buy it,

00:51:11   and here's why it's so cool.

00:51:13   And this is gonna be really big.

00:51:16   As opposed to the way Steve would usually introduce

00:51:19   new product categories, like the way he did

00:51:20   with first the iPod and then the iPhone, of course,

00:51:24   and the iPad, he would introduce it kind of first

00:51:26   by saying why it needs to exist, why we need to want it,

00:51:31   and then showing it to us, and then saying,

00:51:33   given all of the things I just said

00:51:36   on why you should want this and why this device

00:51:37   needs to exist, here it is.

00:51:40   And Tim really didn't do that

00:51:43   with the Apple Watch introduction.

00:51:44   I almost said I watch.

00:51:46   Tim didn't really do that.

00:51:47   He just showed it and said, "Here it is."

00:51:49   And we're kind of left to our own devices

00:51:52   to figure out, well, okay, this thing is cool

00:51:55   and it looks cool, but why do we want to wear a watch?

00:51:58   Especially for the many of us

00:52:00   for whom we haven't been wearing watches

00:52:02   since we got cell phones,

00:52:04   because cell phones made watches unnecessary

00:52:05   for almost everybody except for fashion reasons.

00:52:07   And even then, it's not that common,

00:52:10   and especially among younger people.

00:52:11   So he didn't do that.

00:52:14   So I think there is a lot of valid criticism

00:52:16   to be made about the way this was introduced

00:52:19   in the presentation.

00:52:20   And this article on jiggity.com was really good.

00:52:25   I thought it was, at parts it was a little bit over the top,

00:52:29   or a little bit contrived, but overall,

00:52:30   I'd say it was very good, and way better

00:52:32   than I expected from the premise.

00:52:34   - Completely agree.

00:52:35   - I didn't really like this article.

00:52:37   I think I think what it leaned on a lot of is two things one the fact that we all miss Steve Jobs and leaned on

00:52:44   that it's like hey, wouldn't it be great with this guy was still alive. Yes, it would and

00:52:47   -

00:52:49   It played fast and loose with the actual things that they were announcing

00:52:52   It made Apple announce things that Apple didn't actually announce and boy

00:52:55   Wouldn't it be cool if Apple had said X Y & Z and did X Y & Z I?

00:52:59   Agree that Steve Jobs would have presented this better than Tim Cook

00:53:03   I don't think anyone will disagree that Steve Jobs is a better presenter

00:53:06   The root of it is most likely in the particulars of the person in that Steve Jobs was excited about different things than Tim Cook

00:53:14   Is excited about for the price? I think Tim Cook really is excited about the watch

00:53:17   He's putting his two hands in the air and shaking his fists

00:53:19   like I

00:53:20   Really believe he is excited but he's excited about different

00:53:22   Aspects of the product and Steve Jobs was excited about the same aspects of the product that we're excited about cool technology

00:53:29   Ways to change your life with with technology

00:53:32   particular small features

00:53:34   You know the little genie going in and out of the dock like all the things we you want about Steve Jobs also

00:53:40   It would not be Tim is excited about different stuff. So Tim is a less relatable presenter the

00:53:44   main value of those articles providing so what Marco got at is

00:53:48   There was no one there explained to us in the way that Steve Jobs felt like it was necessary to explain to us

00:53:54   Why we're doing this Tim tries to explain why or has other people come on stage to do it, but they speak in

00:54:01   It's more kind of like they speak in generalities or in sort of corporate speak or in big picture speak where Steve Jobs would

00:54:07   Break it down at a much more primal level and say here's the problem. Here's what we thought about this

00:54:12   We thought about that and here's our solution and we think you're gonna use it for this

00:54:14   And there's been good Steve Jobs presentation bad one. So the reason I like this article is like

00:54:19   Wouldn't it be great if this guy you really love is still alive and he he announced things in a super dramatic way and also

00:54:24   Announce some cooler things than were announced and that I feel like is just it's cheating

00:54:29   You know, this is not this article is not a guideline for how Apple can do better presentations

00:54:34   unless they can do cooler things and resurrect Steve Jobs. So I would have rather seen this article be

00:54:41   I mean I have yet to see the article that says if Steve Jobs was alive X Y & Z that I've liked and this continues

00:54:47   that trend. This article would have been better explaining what was wrong with Tim Cook's presentation

00:54:51   You can compare it to successful presentations by Steve Jobs

00:54:54   But I think if this actual presentation happened the way they said it would be overblown for what they actually announced

00:55:00   You know our personal universe company Apple if Apple has said that on stage even with Steve Jobs. It would be ridiculous. So yeah

00:55:07   Did not like it as much as you guys did but no, I mean, you know, it was not perfect

00:55:12   But I think it did it did make a lot of very good points and it did

00:55:14   It did show a lot of things that Apple could have done

00:55:18   plausibly and differently and and they chose not to I mean it also depends on like the context like I think the

00:55:23   Couple I mean it was at this most recent probably like this most recent WWDC I thought was not a Steve Jobs style presentation

00:55:31   But was really good. Like this is the type of stuff that Steve Jobs wouldn't have known how to describe in

00:55:36   an interesting way

00:55:38   All the the new language the development tools that they showing the new versions of the OS all that software and developer tool stuff

00:55:46   Was presented by people who knew about it in a style that is different than Steve Jobs's style

00:55:50   And I thought it was one of the better

00:55:52   WWC keynotes for the audience that it was given to maybe not to the press or whatever but for room for old developers

00:55:58   Everybody was just you know was jazzed if everyone had something to be jazzed about in that

00:56:03   WWC presentation I think I've only been to what for them in person or whatever. I think that was extremely

00:56:08   successful compared to the last jobs W obviously he was in very bad health there

00:56:13   But he just didn't have the type of stuff to announce that he likes to announce

00:56:16   So the watch one was definitely in Steve Jobs's wheelhouse

00:56:19   But there are other presentations that that are in the current apples wheelhouse

00:56:22   Yeah, it was very clear like it Steve Jobs was always very bad at hiding when he didn't feel that strongly about something

00:56:30   He was very bad at hiding that I think Tim Cook has kind of a different problem

00:56:36   Which is Tim Cook is really excited about certain things and he doesn't either

00:56:40   He doesn't understand that he needs to kind of lead us to that point before just telling us how excited he is

00:56:45   or he doesn't know how to lead us to that point.

00:56:48   - Or he's excited about things that we're not.

00:56:50   Like, I bet if he presented to like,

00:56:53   the organization of people who manage supply chains,

00:56:55   whatever their name is, like,

00:56:56   he would be super excited about the details of those things.

00:56:59   You know, like, he's excited about different things.

00:57:03   I don't want to say he wants to talk about finance

00:57:05   or supply chains or making deals or like,

00:57:09   take an example if we ever get to it.

00:57:11   The Charlie Rose interview

00:57:13   and the interviews that Tim Cook has given

00:57:15   show the things that he's excited about.

00:57:18   They just don't happen to be the same things

00:57:20   as Steve Jobs is excited about.

00:57:21   He's just a different person.

00:57:22   Like, Pavon in the chat room said that that article

00:57:25   struck him as Steve Jobs fan fiction.

00:57:27   I think that is a reasonable approximation of what it is.

00:57:30   And if you like Steve Jobs fan fiction,

00:57:32   then that's a good example of it,

00:57:33   but I was not in the mood for Steve Jobs fan fiction.

00:57:36   (laughing)

00:57:37   - I would say that, let's jump to the Tim Cook,

00:57:40   Charlie Rosen interview, 'cause we're talking about it anyway.

00:57:42   That was, first of all, very good.

00:57:44   It took me a second, I ended up downloading it

00:57:47   from somewhere and watching it with QuickTime Player

00:57:49   at like 1.5x because it typically is not a fast speaker

00:57:52   and it got a little bit slow at times.

00:57:54   But, so I had to get through it twice

00:57:58   before I really appreciated it.

00:58:00   'Cause the first time I just kept zoning out.

00:58:02   But, switched to other tabs and doing other things

00:58:05   and oh, that's right, that's playing in the background.

00:58:07   Anyway, so once I paid attention to it,

00:58:09   it really is quite good.

00:58:11   it does show like it shows Tim getting slightly at ease here and there and and

00:58:18   you could tell like the real Tim is coming out when he's slightly off the

00:58:23   cuff and you can tell he doesn't really go off the cuff ever like and this is

00:58:27   probably as far as he ever gets you know because he's a very like very controlled

00:58:31   person in public you could tell he says things very deliberately very

00:58:36   thoughtfully but just seeing that little bit more of his personality in this was

00:58:41   I think, extremely positive and interesting. And I want to see more of the Tim Cook that

00:58:47   we saw on Charlie Rose. I think he should let more of that come out because what we

00:58:54   saw there was Tim really caring very strongly about certain things like privacy. Where he

00:59:00   came out so hard on privacy, and we'll talk about that too I guess. Tim is not just some

00:59:06   boring paper pusher. He is a very strongly principled guy and he feels very strongly

00:59:12   about certain things and I feel like so far he has not let a lot of that out, possibly

00:59:18   because he didn't think it was the right time, there were so many eyes on him, everyone

00:59:25   looking for him to mess up or do something to indicate that he's not fit for the job

00:59:30   or whatever so you know maybe he's been going into it slowly but the the Tim

00:59:36   Cook that we saw in Charlie Rose I would like to see more from. Did you read that

00:59:41   was it a Bloomberg interview there's some lengthy interview with him. I

00:59:45   haven't gotten to it yet what was with those covers by the way what was that

00:59:48   yeah like those are real? Yeah I thought they were fake for the first several

00:59:52   tweets too and then the series of tweets came in where everyone being flabbergasted they was real and I

00:59:57   to join them in their surprise about that.

00:59:59   - In their flabbergastedness.

01:00:00   - I had forgot that was a paper magazine that had a cover.

01:00:03   I thought it was just online anyway.

01:00:05   But anyway, I think it was Bloomberg.

01:00:06   I'll try to find the link for the show notes.

01:00:08   There was an interview that was like a condensed version

01:00:10   of what I thought were the most revealing parts

01:00:12   of the Charlie Rose interview, and it gets at

01:00:14   what Tim Cook really cares about beyond the things,

01:00:19   beyond obviously his job, which is managing a big company,

01:00:22   and CEOs usually tend not to talk to the public

01:00:25   about aspects of their job, because who cares about others

01:00:28   except for other CEOs.

01:00:28   That's why I was saying if Tim Cook was talking

01:00:30   to a group of other CEOs or other people

01:00:32   who have similar jobs managing large organizations,

01:00:34   he would have a lot of interesting things to say to them,

01:00:36   but not to consumers.

01:00:37   And then there's a technology part which Tim Cook

01:00:40   appreciates and understands, but is not a geek about,

01:00:43   like Steve Jobs was, right?

01:00:44   He's not obsessed with one particular software feature

01:00:47   or one particular hardware feature

01:00:48   and just marveling over it and everything.

01:00:50   You can tell that.

01:00:51   When you're the CEO, you can imbue the company

01:00:54   with some aspects of your personality.

01:00:56   And like Margaret was saying,

01:00:58   Tim Cook has been hesitant to do that thus far,

01:01:03   kind of like just being the sort of guy behind the scenes

01:01:06   like he has been for so long.

01:01:07   But I think maybe in the Mac Pro, WDC keynote,

01:01:11   what was that, 2011 or 2012?

01:01:14   That's when his personality started to come out

01:01:15   a little bit more where he was starting to become willing

01:01:19   to use Apple, the company, as a vehicle

01:01:22   to achieve goals that are personally important to him.

01:01:26   And those goals, as expressed on Charlie Rosen

01:01:28   in his interviews, are about the environment,

01:01:32   privacy, and human rights and diversity.

01:01:35   Topics that have very little to do with Apple Watches

01:01:39   or IMAX or anything like that.

01:01:43   But now he is finally coming out and saying,

01:01:45   I'm the leader of the biggest company in the United States,

01:01:48   maybe the biggest company in the world.

01:01:50   I have tremendous power.

01:01:52   I want to use that power to achieve things

01:01:55   that are important to me because I think they're good ideas.

01:01:58   They're not the goals of the company.

01:01:59   Apple is not turning into an organization

01:02:02   that just deals with the environment

01:02:03   and human rights and privacy.

01:02:04   But in the course of doing the things that Apple does,

01:02:07   making great products that make people's lives better

01:02:09   that they really love and blah, blah, blah,

01:02:10   all that stuff, they can also do these things.

01:02:14   And part of that is him going on shows and saying,

01:02:16   "Here's what we really care about."

01:02:17   Like the diversity report that I was talking

01:02:19   in the text interview about that diversity report

01:02:22   they put up, I think we mentioned on the show,

01:02:23   saying what percentage of Apple's employees are,

01:02:26   what age, what race, what gender, all this other stuff.

01:02:30   And Tim Cook saying that internally there was friction

01:02:33   about like, should we publish this?

01:02:35   'Cause we look terrible.

01:02:36   Like our diversity numbers are not good.

01:02:38   Should we even publish this?

01:02:39   And Tim Cook made the decision, apparently,

01:02:41   over the objections of other people,

01:02:43   like no, we have to walk the walk.

01:02:45   I care about diversity.

01:02:47   If we're not doing a good job,

01:02:48   We want to be transparent about that.

01:02:49   We're going to put out this thing."

01:02:50   And right in the thing that they published,

01:02:52   just, you know, Tim Cook saying a little text

01:02:54   and things says, "We are not happy with these numbers.

01:02:57   How often do you see a gigantic company publish something

01:03:00   that they know will essentially make them look bad

01:03:02   and admit in plain language right in the thing,

01:03:05   this report shows that we are not achieving our goal

01:03:08   as well as I want to.

01:03:10   We're not happy with this.

01:03:11   We're going to try to do better,

01:03:12   but here's what it is anyway."

01:03:14   So that's what's fascinating to me is that

01:03:17   Now the biggest company in the world is being run by somebody who cares about things and

01:03:22   is willing to put his money and his company where his mouth is on them, like with their

01:03:26   whole data center, trying to run an entire data center off renewable energy, despite

01:03:30   the fact that it adds tremendous complication and cost, I'm sure.

01:03:33   And they're doing the same thing with a crazy spaceship type of thing.

01:03:35   Like, yeah, we have enough money, we can just throw a data center up there and we can just

01:03:38   pay for electricity, we'll be fine.

01:03:39   But can we build gigantic solar farms in North Carolina to do it?

01:03:42   You're just making it harder for yourself.

01:03:43   You're just like, it doesn't make business sense, right?

01:03:46   That's like when those people came up

01:03:47   in the shareholder meeting,

01:03:48   and Tim Cook practically shouted the guy down and said,

01:03:50   "Look, if you're looking for someone

01:03:51   "who's just gonna make decisions

01:03:52   "based on return on investment, get out of the stock.

01:03:55   "You know, tough luck."

01:03:57   That's the real Tim Cook.

01:03:58   And we don't relate to it as much because it's like,

01:04:01   "Oh, I like the Steve Jobs.

01:04:02   "He was totally into like the pixels

01:04:04   "and the cool edges and the designs,

01:04:05   "and Johnny Ive likes, you know,

01:04:07   "carving things with diamonds and whatever."

01:04:08   Well, Tim Cook cares about privacy,

01:04:10   human rights, and the environment, and overall health.

01:04:12   And those topics, although they may not be tech nerdy,

01:04:16   it's refreshing to see them sort of bravely and boldly

01:04:20   both expressed and acted on by someone

01:04:23   with as much power and money as Tim Cook.

01:04:25   - And I think what Tim is doing is not only

01:04:29   like interesting and progressive from like a social

01:04:32   and environmental perspective,

01:04:34   it's also just good business.

01:04:36   Like he's not gonna do anything that's gonna like

01:04:38   really damage Apple's business.

01:04:40   He's smarter than that.

01:04:41   Everything he does is carefully measured.

01:04:44   He knows what he's getting into,

01:04:46   and he's doing it because he has probably decided

01:04:50   it's worth it and that it will be a net gain

01:04:51   for the company.

01:04:52   When you're as big as Apple, as they know,

01:04:56   as we all know, you get people attacking you

01:04:59   for all sorts of crazy stuff,

01:05:01   and some of it is fair and some of it isn't.

01:05:03   And it is very important for Apple

01:05:06   to maintain its reputation, especially going into fashion.

01:05:09   but it's very important for them to not be known

01:05:12   as the company that has all these labor abuses in China

01:05:16   and not be known as the company that's destroying

01:05:17   the environment with all the data centers

01:05:18   and everything else, and not be known as the company

01:05:20   that sells all your data to advertisers.

01:05:22   It is very important for Apple to maintain these images,

01:05:27   to address the issues that are coming up in technology.

01:05:31   So a few years ago, those issues were environmental.

01:05:34   Today, they're diversity.

01:05:36   These issues are coming up and they're being talked about

01:05:38   and accusations are being thrown around.

01:05:41   What are you doing about it?

01:05:42   What are you doing about it?

01:05:43   Your company's the problem, your company's the problem.

01:05:45   Tim Cook is getting ahead of these things when he can,

01:05:47   or at least responding to them when he needs to.

01:05:50   And that, I think, serves Apple well overall.

01:05:53   Releasing a diversity report and saying,

01:05:57   I'm not happy with this,

01:05:58   and we're trying to do better than this, that is smart.

01:06:02   It is both socially responsible and good business.

01:06:06   And I think that, again, is what we're seeing

01:06:08   from Tim Cook all over the place.

01:06:09   He does things that are smart and good business,

01:06:13   and he, you know, 'cause the ROI thing on this stock,

01:06:17   like, it was addressing a question

01:06:20   about environmental stuff and making things

01:06:22   accessible by the blind and everything,

01:06:23   and it's like, that is not costing Apple

01:06:27   a meaningful amount, like, it is not making them

01:06:29   a severely less profitable company,

01:06:33   and it certainly is not making them

01:06:34   unprofitable company to care about things like this.

01:06:37   So it isn't harming their business meaningfully.

01:06:40   And shouting down some guy in a shareholder meeting

01:06:42   probably helped their business

01:06:44   because that was reported everywhere

01:06:45   as look how good this guy is.

01:06:47   He has things under control and he's principled.

01:06:51   He does things that help.

01:06:53   - Yeah, so I was trying to find the exact thing

01:06:56   in the interview with him,

01:06:58   but it was a similar question from the interviewer

01:07:00   about whether there is some tension

01:07:03   between you and the other people in your organization

01:07:05   about what the company should do.

01:07:07   And the question put Tim Cook in the role

01:07:10   of someone who wanted to just go ahead with something.

01:07:12   I think it was maybe like, you know,

01:07:13   what if Johnny Ive said it's not good enough,

01:07:15   but you said, well, we gotta ship something now.

01:07:17   And Tim Cook, maybe it was a different question,

01:07:19   but anyway, Tim Cook's answer made the point

01:07:20   that he's not a short-term CEO.

01:07:23   He's not looking for, we gotta make our numbers next quarter.

01:07:26   And that's what you were getting at, Marco,

01:07:27   with like, these things look like,

01:07:30   oh, you're being so brave or whatever,

01:07:31   but they also happen to be in the long run

01:07:34   better for the company, better for the planet,

01:07:36   better for everybody.

01:07:37   It's just that there's so much thinking,

01:07:38   especially in large corporations,

01:07:40   like I don't care what's good in the long run,

01:07:41   just make your money now, get it while the getting's good,

01:07:44   and forget about long-term consequences.

01:07:46   And the right decision,

01:07:47   if your time window is longer than a year or two,

01:07:50   the right decision is to care about renewable energy,

01:07:52   to care about diversity,

01:07:54   to care about the working conditions in China

01:07:56   and all that other stuff, right?

01:07:57   Those are actually not only the right thing to do,

01:08:00   but better for the company.

01:08:01   The same way that Apple has proven,

01:08:02   like if we just care,

01:08:03   if we pay attention to the products,

01:08:04   we don't make a million products

01:08:06   to try to sell into every little market category.

01:08:07   Some people want a hardware keyboard, some people don't.

01:08:09   Some people want a big computer, some people want a small.

01:08:11   We have to fill every single little thing?

01:08:13   No, they have a small number of products

01:08:15   that make them as good as they can,

01:08:16   that diversify as needed,

01:08:17   but they're not like all those other companies

01:08:18   that like HP, you just will make a product

01:08:20   for every single person, every single purpose.

01:08:22   We just gotta get the money now, get it, get it, get it.

01:08:24   Long-term, that's not good.

01:08:25   Long-term, Apple says focus on the product,

01:08:27   make a few products really awesome.

01:08:28   don't get into businesses where just for the hell of it,

01:08:30   like one of the things that we're talking about is

01:08:32   all the different kinds of products that Apple researched

01:08:34   and decided not to make.

01:08:36   Short-term, that looks dumb.

01:08:37   It seems like a waste of money.

01:08:39   Long-term, Apple has proven that it's a winning strategy.

01:08:41   So all these things that Tim Cook does

01:08:44   and that Apple the company does

01:08:45   are always focused on the long-term

01:08:47   and to people so focused on the short-term,

01:08:50   it seems like they're making the wrong call,

01:08:53   but it is actually the right thing to do

01:08:55   And also the thing that will make Apple successful

01:08:58   years and years down the line.

01:09:00   Whether investors care about that

01:09:03   'cause they wanna get in and out of the stock

01:09:04   'cause the average, what is the average time

01:09:06   a stock is held now these days is like less than a year

01:09:08   when we are-- - I think it's a few minutes.

01:09:10   - Well, we're not talking about high-frequency trading,

01:09:12   but yeah, it's just a different mindset.

01:09:14   And it is the correct mindset and it's kind of,

01:09:17   that's nice, that's fine for Merlin type of situation

01:09:19   where it's like, well, if you're Apple,

01:09:20   you can afford to have that thing, but it's the reverse.

01:09:23   If you have that attitude,

01:09:24   That's your only chance of ever becoming a company like Apple.

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01:12:38   - Marco and I both received our new iPhone 6s

01:12:43   on this past Friday.

01:12:46   We are recording on Wednesday night.

01:12:48   I've had a couple of work days with the iPhone 6

01:12:52   that I ordered.

01:12:53   To recap, I ordered a iPhone 6 Space Gray 64 gig

01:12:57   like pretty much everyone on Twitter.

01:12:58   And I don't know what to think.

01:13:03   It is too big.

01:13:04   - What, the 4.7 is too big?

01:13:07   - It's too big.

01:13:08   - I played with one this week.

01:13:09   I gotta say I disagree.

01:13:10   I was pleasantly surprised at how not big

01:13:13   the small one felt.

01:13:15   So I think the problem is, is that I like using my iPhone one-handed quite a lot.

01:13:24   You could make a legitimate argument that I don't need to most times, but nevertheless,

01:13:29   I tend to use my phone one-handed.

01:13:34   And so because of that, when I hold my phone the way I'm used to, which is my pinky covering

01:13:41   the lightning port as kind of like the weight bearing, the load bearing finger if you will.

01:13:48   My ring and middle fingers on the left, this is my right hand, ring and middle fingers

01:13:54   on the left hand side of the phone. My pointer finger basically on the Apple logo and then

01:14:00   my right thumb doing all the operating. I can only get about two thirds up the screen.

01:14:04   You're holding it wrong, Casey. You're totally holding it. I don't know how you're

01:14:08   you're doing that.

01:14:10   - Because it's what I'm used to.

01:14:11   - I actually gotta watch you more closely

01:14:12   the next time I see you.

01:14:13   That seems like the most precarious way to hold this thing.

01:14:16   Like, I don't have my iPod touch with me,

01:14:18   I did the reach test on the iPhone 6

01:14:20   to see what I could reach with my normal grip.

01:14:22   And I thought this was everybody's normal grip,

01:14:24   but hearing you just describe that,

01:14:25   that is not the way I hold the phone.

01:14:27   I have with the corner sort of nestled

01:14:28   in the palm of my hand,

01:14:29   I can reach everywhere across the face of the 6

01:14:31   with my thumb except for the farthest corner.

01:14:34   And the farthest corner,

01:14:35   I am, this is like maybe half an inch at most

01:14:40   I'm missing from it.

01:14:40   This is without me shimmying or moving my palm at all.

01:14:43   Just palm anchor, you might, all four fingers

01:14:46   wrapped on one side of the phone.

01:14:47   The other corner of the phone nestled into my palm

01:14:49   and my thumb sweeping the thing.

01:14:51   I can reach the top right corner,

01:14:52   I can reach the bottom left corner,

01:14:54   I can reach the bottom right corner.

01:14:55   Top left I can't quite reach,

01:14:56   I would have to adjust my grip.

01:14:58   But that's more than I thought I would be able to reach.

01:15:01   I was envisioning me not be able to reach any corners

01:15:03   except for the one closest to my palm.

01:15:05   You with the balancing on the pinky

01:15:06   with your pointer finger on the Apple logo,

01:15:08   I don't know what you're doing.

01:15:09   Put all four fingers on the side of the,

01:15:10   especially now that they have the power button on the side,

01:15:12   you can hit it with your thumb.

01:15:13   - Yeah, and to be honest, I think you're probably right,

01:15:16   that I just need to give up several years of habit

01:15:19   and adjust, and that's reasonable.

01:15:22   But--

01:15:23   - It'll be more secure.

01:15:24   I'm saying this other grip, even with the five size thing,

01:15:28   that grip is better for that one

01:15:29   because you're less likely to drop it.

01:15:31   - No, I'm less likely to drop it

01:15:32   because I have my pinky blocking it from being dropped.

01:15:35   No, that's just making this little bounce cradle someone jostles your hand to go flipping out of the thing because you're not actually gripping it

01:15:40   You're just sort of balancing it on it. It's like sheet music sitting on on the sheet music stands. It's on bumps into it

01:15:46   It's gonna go tumbling off mine. I'm actually holding in my hand. No in Casey's defense

01:15:50   I hold it

01:15:51   I think it sounds like the same way as Casey and it is it is a quite secure hold if you if you just hold

01:15:57   It like with you know thumb and and you know your thumb pad

01:16:00   whatever that's called on one side and then like all four fingers on the other side across the middle then it can slide up and down

01:16:06   Whereas if like if you take if you just take the pinky and you bring it down on the bottom

01:16:11   Then you're anchoring the bottom right corner

01:16:13   Exactly. It's not moving. I've got my iPod touch. It's not moving anywhere

01:16:18   I can't go down because it's literally in the palm of my hand

01:16:20   It can't go up because I'm gripping with all four fingers in my and the side of my hand like it

01:16:24   I have it in a vice grip

01:16:25   It's not I don't have to daintily hold it and have it sort of nestled in a holster shaped like my hand

01:16:30   I'm actually holding it

01:16:32   so

01:16:34   Anyway, we could are we I'm sure I'm also causing antennae issues as well because I'm holding it wrong. Anyway

01:16:41   I do like if you leave aside

01:16:45   The one-handed use which I still haven't come to grips with be that my fault be at the phone's fault one way or another

01:16:51   I haven't come to that was a pun. I

01:16:54   I haven't come to grips with one handed use, but nevertheless, the screen itself, I do

01:17:00   like.

01:17:01   I do like it being a little bigger.

01:17:03   I do think it looks better, although I don't, that must be in my head because the 4.7 inch

01:17:09   screen is pretty much identical to the 5S screen, isn't it?

01:17:12   No, no, it has better viewing angles, better color depth.

01:17:17   And what about that curved glass?

01:17:18   I love the curved edges and the curved glass.

01:17:21   Love it.

01:17:22   So here's the thing about the curved glass.

01:17:23   When I first got my phone, and I did not have a case for it yet, I really liked the curved

01:17:29   glass.

01:17:30   And the most awesome part about the curved glass to me was the swipe from the left edge

01:17:37   to the right, which is a back gesture and also an unlock gesture, although obviously

01:17:42   you don't use that too terribly often with Touch ID.

01:17:45   It makes that gesture so much nicer than it was on the squared off 5S.

01:17:51   But I had an Apple leather case for my 5S and it was far and away the best case I've

01:17:59   ever used on any phone.

01:18:01   I had had bumpers before.

01:18:02   I occasionally would use battery cases if I'm at a conference.

01:18:05   And I loved the leather case in the 5S, so I got one for the 6.

01:18:10   And the problem with the Apple leather case for the 6 is that the way it mounts, it kind

01:18:16   of covers up the nice bit of the curved edge of the glass and just kind of ruins that feel.

01:18:24   Yeah, I am worried about cases on the curve thing. That's what I was thinking about when

01:18:27   I was holding it. How are you going to put a case on this and preserve the things that are good

01:18:31   about it? I don't know. They don't really work. I actually got to hold Casey's phone and I had

01:18:36   the exact same problem with it. It's like, once you have the case on it, it really does ruin that

01:18:40   curve.

01:18:41   And so I don't know what to do because I am enough of a klutz that I often bang my

01:18:46   phone into things because I'm not paying attention to what I'm doing.

01:18:49   Knock on—well, there's no wood nearby—but knock on glass.

01:18:53   Knock on bent aluminum.

01:18:54   Yeah, exactly.

01:18:55   Knock on bent aluminum.

01:18:56   I haven't dropped a phone ever to the point that the screen shatters, but I'm so scared,

01:19:02   especially since the back and the sides of this thing are so darn slippery or slippy

01:19:06   or whatever. I'm so scared I'm going to drop it, especially since I can't anchor it on

01:19:11   my pinky ahem.

01:19:12   Just grip it. You won't drop it if you grip it. Yeah. Did you buy the extra insurance?

01:19:18   I did not.

01:19:19   It's like 50 bucks, right?

01:19:20   It's 70 or 80, isn't it now?

01:19:22   I'll probably buy it just because it's still cheaper than getting it. I don't trust myself

01:19:26   not to drop it. We've got it on my wife's phones. Of course, that means she hasn't dropped

01:19:29   them, but I just feel better buying it in the grand scheme of things. I worry less about

01:19:33   it.

01:19:34   on that is I stopped buying AppleCare

01:19:38   and various protection plans and warranties a few years ago.

01:19:40   And my current policy is the first time I really need one

01:19:44   and regret not having bought one,

01:19:46   I'll start buying them again.

01:19:47   So far it hasn't happened, I'm coming out way ahead.

01:19:50   - Yeah, I tend to agree with you,

01:19:51   but remind me of that when I take the case

01:19:53   off this thing and drop it.

01:19:55   - I don't buy it on my Macs.

01:19:58   I've never really bought it on my Macs

01:19:59   'cause I always assumed like they're not going to be

01:20:01   in a harsh environment.

01:20:02   But once I'm carrying something around,

01:20:03   I have dropped my iPod touch many, many times.

01:20:05   Just so happens it hasn't broken.

01:20:07   I do have a case on it.

01:20:09   If I can find a case that I like for the six,

01:20:12   assuming I buy one, that is like this TPU Belkin case

01:20:17   I have on my iPod touches, I really like this case.

01:20:20   And this case totally annihilate the curve.

01:20:23   But if the edges feel like this iPod touch case was,

01:20:26   does, it's got, it feels like the 5C.

01:20:28   It's like a little bathtub, like a squared off bathtub.

01:20:31   (laughing)

01:20:32   - I would be fine with that.

01:20:33   I like how the 5C feels as well.

01:20:35   I think the 6 is great.

01:20:37   Without a case, I'll have to see what it's like

01:20:39   with cases to decide.

01:20:40   But anyway, the result of my trying the 6 in person

01:20:44   is that I think the 6 is not too ridiculous

01:20:46   and now all I'm doing is just waiting for the October event

01:20:48   to see if there's any iPod Touch action happening there.

01:20:51   - So are you implying that if there is no new iPod Touch,

01:20:55   you're gonna finally get an iPhone?

01:20:56   - Probably.

01:20:57   - Wow, this is big. - I'm so happy.

01:21:00   - And I'm guessing if there's a new iPod touch,

01:21:03   it would not have these bigger screens.

01:21:05   I'm guessing it would be like, you know,

01:21:07   basically a 5S or less. - Let's see.

01:21:09   - Because, I think we discussed this already,

01:21:11   but yeah, I think the bigger screens

01:21:14   really require that hardware display scaler,

01:21:16   which is probably only in the A8.

01:21:18   - Well, I don't mean the Plus, I just mean the 6 size.

01:21:20   - No, I know, same thing.

01:21:21   It also has a scaler. - Put an A7 in there.

01:21:23   It doesn't have a scaler in the--

01:21:25   - Sure it does. - Does it?

01:21:26   - Yep, sure does.

01:21:27   - It's not scaling up anything.

01:21:29   It's just a higher resolution.

01:21:30   - It scales up the apps

01:21:31   when they aren't made for the screen.

01:21:33   - Oh, well yeah, but the display,

01:21:35   that's only for apps that aren't updated for the 6, right?

01:21:37   - Yeah, but either way,

01:21:38   I'm pretty sure the scaler is there,

01:21:40   and I'm pretty sure that they would not have a device

01:21:43   with that size screen in this day and age

01:21:46   without that scaler, which probably means,

01:21:48   and they also probably wouldn't make a custom part

01:21:50   for the iPod touch since nobody buys them.

01:21:52   - They made a big deal about the scaler,

01:21:54   but my iPad 3, you can run,

01:21:55   you run doubled iPhone apps on the iPad for years.

01:21:58   it's fine.

01:21:59   - I'm guessing they're not gonna do it

01:22:01   until they can put an A8 in it.

01:22:02   - Well, I was saying is like this,

01:22:05   not the big size 'cause that one,

01:22:07   I think you would need the A8 in there to do that.

01:22:09   But for the other size, that would make a great iPod touch.

01:22:13   Like that size screen for the kids thing

01:22:16   where you don't wanna give your kid a phone,

01:22:18   but you want them to be able to play iOS games.

01:22:20   It's thin, it's got a bigger screen.

01:22:22   It's a total win for an iPod.

01:22:23   If they still feel like an iPod touch

01:22:25   is the thing they wanna make,

01:22:26   I think that size is a natural fit.

01:22:27   the bigger size, not so much.

01:22:29   - That's an interesting point, I agree with you.

01:22:31   To come back to the iPhones and to get toward the 6 Plus,

01:22:36   a couple other quick thoughts about the 6.

01:22:38   The Apple leather case no longer covers

01:22:40   the bottom of the phone, which looks a little jankier,

01:22:45   but is actually kind of convenient

01:22:47   because there's no real headphone cutout anymore

01:22:49   so that you have to worry about.

01:22:50   And additionally, there's no lightning port cutout anymore

01:22:53   because I found that, I think it was the Amazon

01:22:57   Lightning cables were too thick at the head in order to get into the little cutout for

01:23:03   the lightning port on the 5S case.

01:23:05   So I do kind of like that.

01:23:07   And I do love the feel of the Apple leather cases.

01:23:10   And it makes the protruding lens not be an issue anymore.

01:23:14   But I don't know, sitting here now, I love, I think the phone looks good.

01:23:20   I like having a little bit more real estate, more than I thought I would in fact.

01:23:24   However, every time I pick up Erin's phone and she's staying with the 5S by her own choice,

01:23:30   I think to myself, "Well, the first thought is, 'Holy crap, this is tiny.'

01:23:34   The second thought I have is, 'My goodness, it feels so much better in my hand.'"

01:23:39   Now what do you think, Marco?

01:23:41   Well, first of all, let me address the cosmetic angle.

01:23:45   Both of our friends, CGP Grey on the most recent episode of Hello Internet, which I

01:23:49   highly recommend, it's a fantastic podcast, I'll put that in the show notes, CGP Grey

01:23:54   went on a nice rant in the last episode of Hello Internet

01:23:57   where he basically said he can't believe

01:24:00   how unbelievably ugly the iPhone 6 is.

01:24:02   - Really?

01:24:03   - And also our friend Virginia Roberts,

01:24:05   I wrote a blog post I believe it was the other day,

01:24:08   we'll put that in the show notes as well,

01:24:10   making some similar complaints about the appearance of it.

01:24:13   So CGP Grey's main complaints were the rounded glass,

01:24:18   first of all, and I think Virginia complained about it too.

01:24:21   The rounded glass, I think they are right,

01:24:23   It doesn't look as good.

01:24:25   Like if you see the way the light reflects off of it,

01:24:28   it does almost look like a plastic covering.

01:24:30   It does not look as good.

01:24:31   However, I think it feels so much better

01:24:35   that I think it's worth it.

01:24:36   - I think it looks good too.

01:24:38   The ugliest phone design is the 5 and 5S design.

01:24:42   Maybe the 3GS comes close,

01:24:44   but I really didn't like the 5, 5S design.

01:24:47   I thought it was just terrible in all ways.

01:24:48   It could be just super boring, sharp edges, no interest.

01:24:53   Whereas the curved glass, the whole thing is that it's curved but it's actually made

01:24:57   of glass.

01:24:58   Apple's not the first one to do this.

01:25:01   So the Android people don't write in.

01:25:02   Yes, we are aware that many, many Android phones have had curved glass in all sorts

01:25:06   of curves in every different direction.

01:25:07   This is the first Apple one.

01:25:08   Fine.

01:25:09   I'm just saying I like it.

01:25:10   I liked it when it was on the Android phones.

01:25:11   I liked it when it was on other phones.

01:25:12   I liked it when it was on Apple's phones.

01:25:14   It's because it's glass and it's hard and it's not some squishy little thing.

01:25:17   And especially the joint that it makes with the rest of the thing, tight panel gaps.

01:25:24   Lexus, the relentless pursuit of perfection.

01:25:26   Ball bearings.

01:25:27   Accidental neutral.

01:25:28   Anyway, all that stuff.

01:25:31   I think it reflects well on the device.

01:25:33   I can understand some people being annoyed by the antenna lines on the back.

01:25:37   Yeah, that was the other thing.

01:25:38   And Gray definitely complained about it.

01:25:40   I think Virginia did as well.

01:25:42   I think the antenna lines are indeed ugly.

01:25:44   I think the backs of these phones are a little ugly.

01:25:48   I wouldn't say it's as severe as what Gray seemed to think.

01:25:52   I do think those antenna bands are indeed ugly and I wish they didn't have them.

01:25:57   However, I will also say that I have noticed significantly improved Wi-Fi reception from

01:26:02   the 5S.

01:26:04   There are a number of areas in and around my house where I used to be like right on

01:26:07   the edge and sometimes would drop the connection with Wi-Fi and with every previous phone up

01:26:13   up to the 5S and then the 6 that I've had

01:26:16   for the last few days has not had that problem.

01:26:18   Like in those same areas it has like two arcs

01:26:21   of WiFi reception and holds connections just fine

01:26:24   and is able to transfer data just fine.

01:26:27   So whatever it's worth, the WiFi is definitely

01:26:30   better reception in this current design.

01:26:31   And whether it's due to something that requires the bands,

01:26:35   who knows, I don't like the bands but if that's what

01:26:39   it takes to get good WiFi reception on edge areas

01:26:41   of my house, I'll take them.

01:26:42   Well see, with the bands, they have the same decision.

01:26:46   Like first of all, metal is not radio transparent.

01:26:49   And they wanna have metal for it.

01:26:50   Like they have the plastic one.

01:26:51   The 5C I think is great, it looks great,

01:26:53   but they obviously wanna have a metal one,

01:26:55   but you can't have the antennas,

01:26:56   you have to have something, plastic or some other material

01:26:59   that the radio waves can get out of.

01:27:00   So they decided, we know we have to have a plastic part,

01:27:03   we don't wanna make plastic panels top and bottom,

01:27:05   we don't wanna make glass panels top and bottom,

01:27:08   we don't wanna do all those other things we've done before,

01:27:10   we can't shovel it all through a little glass Apple logo.

01:27:12   we have to have these plastic parts.

01:27:14   What can we do to make them attractive?

01:27:16   And what they've done with them is,

01:27:18   like the curved glass interfacing with the aluminum,

01:27:21   they're showing off their ability

01:27:22   to manufacture to tolerances

01:27:24   by making the plastic exactly flush

01:27:26   with the metal behind it.

01:27:28   If those stripes were like slightly indented

01:27:31   or you could catch your fingernails on them,

01:27:33   or if they ever become that way,

01:27:34   like after a month or two months or a year of use,

01:27:37   if they start to get all uneven

01:27:38   and they expand and contract at different rates

01:27:40   or become warped or whatever,

01:27:42   that will ruin the effect.

01:27:43   But you know, these iPhone 6s that we've all seen

01:27:45   that are brand new from the factory,

01:27:47   I think them showing off again, like panel gaps,

01:27:49   they're like, look, it is like one seamless material.

01:27:51   Isn't that amazing?

01:27:52   I agree that from a distance looking at it,

01:27:54   it's like, why are those ugly stripes all over it?

01:27:55   But in the details close up,

01:27:58   I appreciate the craftsmanship demonstrated.

01:28:00   Like it's kind of like when you do,

01:28:01   I forget what it's called, like wooden lays,

01:28:03   where you, someone,

01:28:04   and we don't have woodworkers in the chat room anyway.

01:28:06   Like we do, where you cut out pieces of wood

01:28:09   to precisely fit inside next to other pieces of wood

01:28:12   and you polish all together

01:28:13   so it looks like one continuous piece of wood.

01:28:16   That's kind of what they've done.

01:28:17   They've got antenna inlays.

01:28:18   They're not ornamental, they're fairly straightforward,

01:28:22   but I think it's a nice look for a necessary evil.

01:28:27   Again, I think the 4S design is still the best one

01:28:30   because it took the necessary evil

01:28:31   and incorporated it into the design

01:28:33   by making the entire back glass, the entire front glass.

01:28:35   We all know what the problems with that were,

01:28:36   but as a piece of sculpture, the 4S wins.

01:28:39   But as something I hold in my hand

01:28:41   and probably won't ever see the back of, I like the 6.

01:28:44   - Yeah, honestly, I think, you know,

01:28:46   I totally agree with some of the concerns

01:28:49   that it is indeed harder to reach things on the 6.

01:28:51   Like, you know, going from the 4S to the 5,

01:28:54   certain things on screen were hard to reach,

01:28:56   especially like if you hold it on the bottom,

01:28:57   like most of us do,

01:28:58   the upper corners became much harder to reach.

01:29:01   With the new one, the 4.7 and the 5.5,

01:29:05   that it takes it in bigger directions.

01:29:07   Even more things are now harder to reach

01:29:10   without an awkward regrip or reachover kind of thing.

01:29:13   No question that part is worse.

01:29:16   However, I think overall,

01:29:20   overall the 6 feels way better in the hand,

01:29:23   even with the awkward reaching needs.

01:29:26   - Now, have you noticed improved battery life?

01:29:29   Because, granted these are new devices,

01:29:32   and Steven Hackett took me to task on that.

01:29:35   and naturally any new battery is gonna feel a little better

01:29:39   or feel like it lasts longer than an older battery.

01:29:41   But that being said, and I'm making up numbers here,

01:29:45   but when I got done with an average workday with my 5S,

01:29:48   I would be at something around 30 or 40%.

01:29:51   I don't have the battery percentage on my status bars.

01:29:55   This is all just visually,

01:29:56   but I feel like I'm coming home from an average day at work

01:29:59   with 10 or 20% more battery power remaining on my 6

01:30:04   than I ever did on my five asks.

01:30:06   And I was curious, Marco,

01:30:07   if you've seemed to have noticed similar results

01:30:09   or if perhaps I'm just crazy.

01:30:11   - I guess it's better.

01:30:14   I don't have a regular schedule,

01:30:16   so every day I treat my phone weirdly differently.

01:30:19   Yeah, I don't know.

01:30:21   I think it's close enough.

01:30:24   You're not talking about twice as long.

01:30:26   - No, no, no, no, no.

01:30:27   - You're talking about maybe 20% longer.

01:30:29   I think it's close enough that it's within the realm

01:30:31   of like everyday variances of how it's being used,

01:30:35   or the age of the battery being one year newer,

01:30:37   things like that.

01:30:38   Like I don't think we can draw a big conclusion from that.

01:30:41   - Fair enough.

01:30:41   That's the biggest one with batteries is

01:30:43   when you get a new device,

01:30:44   your old one has at least a one year old battery.

01:30:47   - Right.

01:30:48   - That it's always, if you had just simply gotten

01:30:50   a new version of the phone you already had,

01:30:51   you'd be like, wow, this battery is better.

01:30:53   That's just a fact of life with lithium ion batteries.

01:30:56   - It's even more severe in laptops

01:30:57   when you only get a new one like every four years.

01:30:59   - Yeah, and it's even bigger than the,

01:31:02   hey, I just installed a new version of the OS

01:31:04   and it feels faster, but it's just because I rebooted,

01:31:05   because the battery thing is real measurable difference,

01:31:09   even just from a year old battery,

01:31:10   use your phone every day.

01:31:11   Yes, the new battery is always such a nice big win.

01:31:14   I mean, I see it, even we got my son an iPod touch

01:31:17   and like, how old is this iPod touch?

01:31:18   Not three years old, it's got two years old,

01:31:20   whatever it is.

01:31:21   When he got a brand new one,

01:31:22   his battery is way better than mine.

01:31:24   And I should have just given him my old one,

01:31:26   but I didn't.

01:31:28   - All right, so let's, well any other thoughts

01:31:30   about the six, and then I'd like to talk about the six plus?

01:31:33   - Well I think something that might bridge the two

01:31:35   is software thoughts, like what it's like to use apps

01:31:40   that are just bigger.

01:31:41   So you know, Casey, you and I have used the six now

01:31:43   for about a week or whatever, a little less than a week.

01:31:46   It's weird because obviously a lot of apps

01:31:48   aren't updated yet, which is unfortunate

01:31:50   because they really do look awful when they're not updated.

01:31:53   And I really, I hope developers listening to this,

01:31:57   If you thought that an update was something

01:31:58   that you had to like maybe kinda casually get to

01:32:01   and you haven't really,

01:32:02   and you haven't even submitted it yet,

01:32:03   I know there's a long submission queue,

01:32:05   so if you're stuck in the submission queue,

01:32:07   this does not apply to you.

01:32:09   But if you're a developer who's like,

01:32:10   oh well, we'll get to it sometime soon,

01:32:13   you should reconsider that position.

01:32:14   You should really get on that

01:32:16   because non-updated apps really do look awful.

01:32:20   And most importantly, they don't work very well

01:32:23   if you ever bring up the keyboard

01:32:25   because the keyboard is scaled.

01:32:26   Also, which means that everything on the keyboard

01:32:29   is slightly differently sized than the native keyboards

01:32:32   in every other app on the phone.

01:32:34   And so you make tons of typos because you like,

01:32:37   it's slightly off from what you're used to.

01:32:40   So definitely get your apps updated as soon as you can.

01:32:43   Anyway, for apps that have been updated,

01:32:46   including all the built-in ones

01:32:48   and a handful of third-party ones,

01:32:50   I think it's kind of like, you know, so on iOS,

01:32:53   it's like every window is always maximized

01:32:56   or whatever OS X calls zoomed, well it's different.

01:33:00   On iOS, it's like every window is always maximized

01:33:03   the way maximize means on Windows.

01:33:06   Everything's always full screen, edge to edge,

01:33:08   unless we get that crazy iPad resizing apps thing,

01:33:10   but we'll see about that.

01:33:12   And so when you get a bigger screen,

01:33:14   you don't have more room to put apps side by side

01:33:17   or anything, all the apps just get larger,

01:33:20   they get more space.

01:33:21   And so some of the apps I think are suffering from

01:33:24   not knowing how to use this space very well.

01:33:27   It's, you know, like, even looking at something like Mail,

01:33:29   like, I even, this isn't even,

01:33:31   I'm not even talking about the six plus,

01:33:32   even just on the six, I'm having this problem with Mail,

01:33:36   where it just kind of looks like

01:33:38   they don't know what to do with the space yet.

01:33:40   Like, it looks like you've maximized a window

01:33:43   on a new, bigger monitor,

01:33:45   and everything just spread out more,

01:33:47   and it, you know, it doesn't,

01:33:48   it isn't proportionally scaled, it's--

01:33:50   - Like your accidental, accidental overcast app for iPad.

01:33:54   - Yeah, exactly, it's a little less severe than that,

01:33:56   but it is that same kind of effect where it's like,

01:34:00   this was clearly designed for a differently sized screen

01:34:03   and it's just being scaled up to this new one,

01:34:07   but it was obviously designed for a smaller screen

01:34:10   and it kinda looks ridiculous.

01:34:12   To an extent, I'm getting that feeling

01:34:14   all over the place with the 6.

01:34:17   The 6 Plus, I would imagine, is probably worse.

01:34:20   I did end up getting both.

01:34:22   My 6 Plus just arrived a few hours ago,

01:34:24   so I haven't had a lot of time to spend with it.

01:34:25   The reason I got both is for developer purposes.

01:34:28   I think we developers have been lucky

01:34:31   in all previous years for developing

01:34:33   for the iPhone or iPad in that we've never really

01:34:37   had to buy extra ones.

01:34:38   Forgive me if I gave this rant last week, I forgot,

01:34:40   but I at least gave it on Twitter.

01:34:42   We've never had to buy extra phones.

01:34:45   If you're an Android developer, that sounds ridiculous,

01:34:47   'cause Android developers generally have to buy extra phones

01:34:50   beyond the ones they would normally get for themselves

01:34:52   just because you need more stuff to test on.

01:34:54   iOS people, if you just bought a new iPhone

01:34:56   every year or two, you were mostly okay.

01:34:58   This was the first time I really felt like

01:35:01   I had to buy an extra one, because the 6 and 6 Plus

01:35:06   are very different from each other,

01:35:08   not to mention all previous iPhones.

01:35:10   I think if you're a developer, it's very clear,

01:35:13   both from just looking at the sales numbers,

01:35:16   even though they're combined,

01:35:17   looking around, seeing what is selling.

01:35:19   I even, I asked the guy in the Apple store today,

01:35:22   what roughly is the sales mix between the two.

01:35:26   And he said, well, you know, they're getting a lot fewer

01:35:28   of the six pluses, so they're selling more sixes,

01:35:31   but if they had them both in stock,

01:35:33   they'd probably be selling about equally,

01:35:35   'cause there's so many people asking for the six plus.

01:35:38   So I think this is very clear, like,

01:35:41   we're not gonna have one of these being

01:35:43   the massive majority winner over the other one.

01:35:47   We're gonna see, I think both of these

01:35:49   are gonna be major selling devices.

01:35:51   And it's important for developers to be able to test on both of them because they're different.

01:35:55   The 6 Plus is not just the 6 but bigger.

01:35:58   It has different size classes, it displays miniature iPad interfaces and landscape, it

01:36:02   has a scaler and it runs at 3x.

01:36:05   The entire screen runs differently and the way you hold it is different.

01:36:10   The ergonomics are different.

01:36:11   Where you should put controls might be different.

01:36:14   These are very different devices from each other and from past ones and so I think it's

01:36:18   important for developers to have both.

01:36:20   So what I did was I got my regular AT&T one

01:36:22   for the small one, and the big one I got an unlocked one

01:36:26   at full price in the same capacity, same color, Black64,

01:36:31   so that I could swap the SIM into it.

01:36:33   And so what I'm going to actually do is

01:36:36   I'm going to switch to the big one

01:36:38   for like a week or two here or there,

01:36:40   just so I can get a feel for what it's like to use one

01:36:42   so I have some idea of what I should be developing on it.

01:36:45   Like where should controls go?

01:36:47   How should things work?

01:36:49   I think it's important for developers to familiarize

01:36:51   ourselves with both of these devices because they're huge.

01:36:54   Not in size, well that too, but they're gonna be huge

01:36:57   in sales and influence.

01:36:59   Anyway, all that being said, I think the 6+ is gonna have

01:37:02   this problem even more of having apps just kind of be

01:37:06   scaled up and not like in the old, un-updated way,

01:37:09   but even after you update your apps, like okay,

01:37:12   you make your app run in this bounding rectangle.

01:37:16   It's still not really redesigned for it

01:37:18   until you do something special for it.

01:37:20   And I think it's gonna be a while before developers

01:37:24   and Apple with its own apps really know

01:37:27   how to use this space well enough.

01:37:29   I think, and so in combination with what I said last week

01:37:34   where I think in a world where the Apple Watch

01:37:37   is commonplace, I think the five plus,

01:37:40   or the six plus will make more sense

01:37:43   because a bigger phone is harder to take in

01:37:45   and out of your pocket or wherever it happens to be stored.

01:37:48   If you have a watch to check notifications

01:37:51   and to do minor actions on,

01:37:53   you don't need to take it out of your pocket as much.

01:37:55   So I think next year and in future years,

01:37:58   the six plus line or the large size line

01:38:02   will be more compelling for more people

01:38:03   because it's mostly sitting in your pocket

01:38:06   and you're just glancing the watch all day

01:38:07   and then you're using it when you have two hands available.

01:38:10   This year I think it'll be very successful

01:38:15   but a lot of geeks like us won't be switching to it.

01:38:18   That being said, it's, again, it's gonna be big.

01:38:22   And I think it's gonna take us a year or two

01:38:26   to even figure out how to use the space.

01:38:28   - I think you're right.

01:38:31   We actually saw each other, Marco and I, this past weekend.

01:38:35   And I had gotten a few friends together over the weekend,

01:38:39   and one of my friends, Phil, actually had gotten his six plus

01:38:44   that Friday, this past Friday.

01:38:47   And so I got to play with this iPhone 6 Plus for a little while.

01:38:53   And my initial impressions about it were, firstly, oh my God, enormous.

01:38:59   Secondly, it just felt to me a little bit wrong.

01:39:05   Like the 6 still feels like a phone to me.

01:39:09   Granted, I just spent a little while earlier telling you I do think it's a little too

01:39:13   big, but maybe over time I'll adjust.

01:39:16   The 6 Plus is indisputably freaking huge.

01:39:20   And huge to the point that I almost, I think,

01:39:25   mentally associate it more as a very small iPad

01:39:29   than I do a very large iPhone.

01:39:32   - Oh yeah, I think if the iPad was the better selling device

01:39:37   they might have called this the iPad Nano.

01:39:39   - I agree, I agree completely.

01:39:42   I did briefly use it in landscape mode

01:39:45   in mail where it had the split view going on.

01:39:48   And I actually really, really liked that.

01:39:51   And I really thought that was really nice

01:39:53   to have that extra bit of context

01:39:56   as you're going through your email.

01:39:58   And so presumably that would apply to many other apps

01:40:01   that will eventually support these split views.

01:40:03   But overall, it just felt completely wrong to me.

01:40:08   And even if I was bumping into battery issues constantly,

01:40:14   like Mike Hurley is, I would be hard-pressed to want to carry something that large all

01:40:21   the time.

01:40:22   To me, I have my phone when I'm on the go, and I have my iPad when I don't need to create

01:40:29   a lot of things, but I want something with a little more breathing room, iPad mini I

01:40:35   should say, and I have my laptop if I really need to sit down and do work.

01:40:40   I don't personally see where a 6 Plus fits in my life,

01:40:45   but I mean, apparently a bunch of people do think so.

01:40:49   But man, it's just so big.

01:40:51   - Yeah, the more I think about the 6 Plus,

01:40:53   which I still haven't even seen in person,

01:40:54   but the more I think about it in the abstract,

01:40:57   the more I relate it to my beloved still,

01:41:01   but similarly troubled iPad 3,

01:41:04   in that it just seems like a compromised device.

01:41:08   the 3x resolution scaled down.

01:41:11   I know some people say that you can't tell

01:41:14   and it doesn't matter and it looks great and blah, blah, blah

01:41:16   but I'm pretty sure I will be able to tell.

01:41:19   And even if I can't tell, it's just such an awkward,

01:41:21   like what am I gaining out of that?

01:41:23   Like 400 DPI fine, but rendering it 3x and scaling down,

01:41:28   that's not gaining me anything, right?

01:41:30   That is not, it's making the hardware work harder,

01:41:33   render at a higher resolution and then taking away,

01:41:37   throwing away a lot of that information

01:41:39   when it scales it down.

01:41:41   I don't know if they just couldn't hit the target,

01:41:44   you know, they couldn't get screens at the actual resolution.

01:41:47   3X bothers me, 'cause I don't care

01:41:50   if the screen resolutions are multiples of 16,

01:41:52   but I do care that they're evenly divisible.

01:41:54   And again, it's like, well, you're supposed to be

01:41:55   moving away from pixel perfect design,

01:41:56   who cares or whatever, like,

01:41:58   why make that compromise if you don't have to?

01:42:01   Because they can't do it in 4X, that's why it's 3X.

01:42:03   'Cause 4X is too much, they can't even do native 3X,

01:42:05   So they do 3x and scale down.

01:42:07   Just the whole thing seems like a transition point

01:42:11   towards something else.

01:42:12   Because we had 1x and we had 2x and it was a clear,

01:42:15   like we waited a while to get 2x,

01:42:16   when we got it, it was a clean win.

01:42:18   3x scaled down is not a clean win.

01:42:20   Bigger 2x, fine.

01:42:22   4x, which we're not there yet, fine.

01:42:25   But this just seems like a way station

01:42:27   in between where we are now and where we might like to be.

01:42:31   Or maybe we could just decide that the 2x is enough

01:42:33   and there's not any benefit to going to 4 or 3x scale down.

01:42:36   But just the Plus as a hardware device,

01:42:40   mostly defined by its screen,

01:42:42   because it's mostly just one big screen, I don't like it.

01:42:45   - I think your opinion might change if you see one.

01:42:49   Academically, I get your points about

01:42:52   how the scaling is kind of gross, no question.

01:42:55   But in person, it doesn't really matter,

01:42:58   and the screen just looks really, really good.

01:43:00   - You don't see the hairline shimmering when you scroll?

01:43:02   single native pixel lines, basically hair lines,

01:43:06   scroll with them, you can see them shimmer, I think.

01:43:08   - Yeah, I'll check.

01:43:09   So far I haven't noticed that.

01:43:11   - Now that I've brought it to your attention.

01:43:13   - Oh yeah, there it is.

01:43:14   Very, you have to be scrolling a table view extremely slowly

01:43:18   to see it and looking for it.

01:43:20   - I mean, it's not so much, it's really in the idea

01:43:24   that this hardware is compromised.

01:43:27   Like it's because they couldn't do 4x,

01:43:29   but they didn't want to just do 2x that size,

01:43:31   So they want because they wanted to get higher DPI.

01:43:33   And so this is all, this is the compromise.

01:43:35   And I'm only like in the same way that I sit there

01:43:38   and just wait and don't buy any new hardware

01:43:39   until the hardware comes out that I want, right?

01:43:42   - I just often never.

01:43:44   - Well, with the iPad,

01:43:45   I waited until they had a retina model.

01:43:47   And even that I got compromised

01:43:48   because it's the very first retina one.

01:43:49   And if I cared about like 3D performance or whatever,

01:43:51   I would be, which I don't,

01:43:53   but even just things like scrolling or whatever,

01:43:55   like wait for the thing that you want.

01:43:57   And I didn't buy an iPad,

01:43:58   despite the fact that I knew I would love one

01:43:59   until it went retina.

01:44:00   I don't regret that decision.

01:44:02   I'm sitting here with this 2008 Mac Pro,

01:44:04   not buying a new one until it's just the right thing.

01:44:06   And in that sort of mindset, the plus is not the one.

01:44:10   Like in terms, you know, I know where they're going,

01:44:13   they're not there yet.

01:44:14   This is a transitional fossil.

01:44:16   It will come and go.

01:44:17   We will forget that it ever existed.

01:44:19   And the, you know, the correct one that is a better fit

01:44:23   between CPU, GPU screen and resolution.

01:44:27   3X, just, I don't think I'll ever be happy with that.

01:44:30   - I don't, well, the 3X itself,

01:44:33   like if it was native to the panel,

01:44:35   I don't think that would be a problem.

01:44:36   But I mean, first of all,

01:44:37   I think you're holding it to too high of a standard.

01:44:39   You know, like the way--

01:44:40   - Oh yeah, the regular people don't care.

01:44:42   This is just me personally.

01:44:43   No one else has these values, but I totally understand that.

01:44:45   - Like if your phone is subsidized by your carrier

01:44:48   and you can get a new one every year for,

01:44:50   or every two years for like 300 bucks,

01:44:53   you don't have to worry about,

01:44:54   like you know, your Mac Pro decision is,

01:44:56   am I gonna be okay using this computer

01:44:57   for the next five years?

01:44:59   your phone decision is am I gonna be okay

01:45:01   using this computer for the next one to two years?

01:45:02   - It's esoteric, like I just have specific demands

01:45:05   of the hardware, very little people

01:45:06   can't even tell retina versus not retina.

01:45:07   This is totally irrelevant.

01:45:09   To like, I'm just not, I'm talking about me personally,

01:45:11   like when I look at the arc of the hardware,

01:45:13   if you are a hardware aficionado,

01:45:15   there are certain machines that are just like,

01:45:17   that was just the right time, just the right combination

01:45:19   of all the parts were in harmony,

01:45:22   no part was unnecessarily compromised

01:45:24   by being in a transition between an old one and a new one.

01:45:27   like the retina screen.

01:45:29   Like they didn't do much with the screen.

01:45:31   They didn't change the resolution.

01:45:32   They didn't change the size until they could go retina.

01:45:34   And that was just such a big leap, such a clean win.

01:45:37   And they could have done compromises in between

01:45:39   by tweaking the resolution and increasing the DPI,

01:45:40   but they didn't.

01:45:42   This 3X one just smells to me like we couldn't do 4X.

01:45:46   We had to do 3X, but we couldn't even get a screen

01:45:51   that did that.

01:45:52   So we had to do 3X scale down and here's your device.

01:45:55   And maybe the only hope this gives me

01:45:57   that maybe it means that a plus-size iPod touch actually is in the works because if you're going to give a kid something to play

01:46:03   games on or watch video on in the back of the car and you don't want to give them an iPad a

01:46:07   Plus-sized iPod touch would be great and maybe it's like well

01:46:10   We could have had the super high-end screen on the the iPhone 6 plus if we added another 50 bucks

01:46:15   But we knew we were going to use the exact same screen in the plus-sized iPod touch

01:46:19   And so we had to go with this crazy compromise, but I don't know I'm just making excuses for them now

01:46:22   it does not it it offends me on a

01:46:26   tech nerd hardware level, none of this has anything to do

01:46:29   with how successful the product will be in the market.

01:46:31   - I think also, you're calling this a compromise device,

01:46:36   similar to the iPad 3, and I think by that,

01:46:39   let me know if this is fair, I think you're saying

01:46:42   design compromises had to result in something mediocre.

01:46:46   Is that a fair characterization?

01:46:47   - Not just mediocre, but like Gruber said,

01:46:49   again, this is all academic 'cause I haven't seen it,

01:46:51   but he saw a couple of animations that looked like

01:46:53   they might have stuttered a little more on the plus.

01:46:55   That's something that a consumer could notice,

01:46:57   that it is smoother on the 6,

01:46:59   but even though this is the more expensive model.

01:47:02   - See, I think the compromises on this

01:47:05   are a lot less significant and less obvious

01:47:08   than what you might be thinking.

01:47:11   Like the 3X divide, again, I think you're,

01:47:14   I see what you're saying about how it's offending you

01:47:16   like on a nerd level.

01:47:17   That I get.

01:47:19   I think the overall device, looking at it,

01:47:22   I'm holding one in my hand now, looking at this device,

01:47:24   Like, I think this is,

01:47:27   rather than saying it's a compromised device,

01:47:29   I would say it's more like the 17 inch PowerBook.

01:47:31   Remember that?

01:47:32   Or a MacBook Pro?

01:47:33   - That was also compromised by the ridiculous keyboard

01:47:35   floating in the giant sea of aluminum.

01:47:37   (laughing)

01:47:39   - Of course you'd have a problem with that.

01:47:40   - It's the same keyboard on the 13 inch Mac PowerBook

01:47:45   and on the 12 inch PowerBook.

01:47:47   - They called it a feature.

01:47:48   I think I called it a feature too, but no.

01:47:50   - Tim Cook called it a feature because part sharing,

01:47:51   but it was just ridiculous.

01:47:53   No, it was nice to be consistent with your finger feel.

01:47:55   Anyway, consistently, let's standardize

01:47:57   on the worst keyboard.

01:47:58   (laughing)

01:48:01   - Oh, Jon, are you ever happy?

01:48:03   - Anyway. (laughing)

01:48:05   - Wait, like the 6 Plus does benefit from having,

01:48:07   I would assume, exactly the same fit and finish

01:48:09   and cool design and curved corners and everything.

01:48:11   Like all the things that I said I like about the 6,

01:48:13   this has them too, it's just bigger.

01:48:15   Like I'm not saying the hardware,

01:48:16   it's just the balance of the internals

01:48:19   and the screen seems off to me.

01:48:21   I think like the 17 inch power book,

01:48:24   people are going to love this thing

01:48:26   and not, maybe not all people,

01:48:27   maybe not even the majority, we'll see.

01:48:29   I think the majority, how do they might go for this?

01:48:32   Either way, it's--

01:48:34   - Regular people don't care about any of these things

01:48:35   I just said.

01:48:36   This is totally immaterial,

01:48:37   I might as well just been babbling.

01:48:38   All they care is it's a bigger screen.

01:48:40   For them, it's price.

01:48:42   Do I want $100 more for the bigger one?

01:48:44   As I said, I think the 6 will be the more popular model.

01:48:46   It's so hard to tell now because the 6+s

01:48:48   are so incredibly supply constrained

01:48:50   that they're always sold out everywhere.

01:48:51   And that could fool people into thinking

01:48:53   that they are the more popular model, but they're not.

01:48:55   It's like the gold iPhones.

01:48:57   - Sure, yeah.

01:48:57   But I think like, you know,

01:49:00   if they made a retina 17 inch MacBook Pro today,

01:49:05   for my next laptop, I might buy that.

01:49:09   Because I'm almost always limited on what I can do

01:49:12   on my laptop by the screen space.

01:49:14   And yes, it has the scaling modes,

01:49:16   but they make things really tiny and it's hard to see.

01:49:18   I would almost certainly buy a 17 inch Retina MacBook Pro

01:49:21   if one was available.

01:49:23   The 17 inch old MacBook Pro and PowerBook,

01:49:27   it didn't sell well as far as I know,

01:49:29   but it sold because if that was your only computer,

01:49:33   and if you only had a laptop and you were a power user,

01:49:36   and portability was a little bit less important

01:49:39   than screen space and being able to use

01:49:42   as much screen space as you could in one thing

01:49:44   'cause you had to be very productive

01:49:46   on just the laptop screen with no external monitor.

01:49:48   If those were your needs, that was a fantastic computer.

01:49:52   And those were, granted, edge case needs,

01:49:55   but that was a really great solution to it.

01:49:57   Now I think there's a parallel to draw between that

01:50:00   and your iPhone being your only mobile device

01:50:04   if you don't have a tablet,

01:50:06   and possibly your primary or only computer.

01:50:09   If you don't even have a PC or you don't use one anymore

01:50:11   or you hardly ever use one,

01:50:14   so many people use their phones as their only

01:50:17   or primary computer these days,

01:50:19   it does make sense to have a big screen,

01:50:22   to basically have as big of a screen as you can tolerate

01:50:24   carrying around and using in your hand

01:50:26   because so many things on a computer

01:50:29   are better on big screens.

01:50:31   And so I think from that point of view,

01:50:33   this actually isn't a compromised device.

01:50:36   It's simply another option for people

01:50:38   for whom this is their primary computer.

01:50:39   - No, I think it's a compromised implementation

01:50:42   A device that everyone knows that there's a demand for which is a big honking phone. I'm saying except that a big honking phone

01:50:48   It's two levels of compromise one category is big honking phone

01:50:51   You're consciously choosing a happy medium between all the other devices that you're not gonna get cuz you're just gonna have one phone fine

01:50:58   Once you'd establish that that's the type of thing we want to make

01:51:00   How do you make a really good big honking phone and the answer is not render 3x and scale down to HD

01:51:05   With the GPU that can barely handle it. I don't know honestly, I'm

01:51:11   I think in the back of my mind,

01:51:13   there's like a 40% chance or so

01:51:17   that I'm actually, during my trial of this thing,

01:51:19   I'm actually gonna like it better

01:51:20   and switch to it full-time.

01:51:21   Because I'm exactly the kind of user who would like this.

01:51:25   - Yeah, I'd upset them.

01:51:26   If you like a big phone, you're like,

01:51:27   I'm not saying that, again, that category of thing,

01:51:30   if it turns out that you want a big phone,

01:51:31   this is the only big iPhone, so a really big iPhone,

01:51:35   so this is your only choice, and it's fine.

01:51:37   It's just not, it just bothers me.

01:51:40   What it looks like is something that if they,

01:51:43   if they had their choice,

01:51:44   they would have done it differently,

01:51:45   but couldn't for reasons of parts availability,

01:51:49   or, you know, just like something didn't work out,

01:51:52   is what it seems like to me.

01:51:53   - Yeah, and again, that's fair.

01:51:55   I just think in real world use, it doesn't really matter.

01:51:59   - No, no, it doesn't.

01:52:00   It's just, just bothers me.

01:52:00   I mean, my iPad 3 is exactly the same deal.

01:52:03   It gets too hot, it's big and it's thick.

01:52:05   It's got the 30 pin connector.

01:52:06   The GPU can barely handle the screen res.

01:52:08   I mean, I was happy with it

01:52:09   because I was holding out for as long as I possibly could

01:52:11   to get a retina screen.

01:52:12   And retina versus non-retina, it was totally worth it.

01:52:14   But I also recognize that of all the retina iPads,

01:52:18   this one is the bad one, right?

01:52:19   This is the one like we can just barely do retina.

01:52:22   The four came out so quickly after,

01:52:24   four has lightning port, right?

01:52:26   - Yeah.

01:52:27   - Anyway, that's many, many parallels.

01:52:29   And I say this as like, I'm still using my iPad 3

01:52:32   and this is part of Apple's curse that like,

01:52:34   I've not seen a reason so far.

01:52:36   I'm gonna get replace it with an Air eventually too,

01:52:38   but I've watched generations of iPads come and go

01:52:40   and every time I've said, you know what,

01:52:42   my iPad is still pretty darn good.

01:52:43   That screen looks good, I use it when I'm on my couch

01:52:46   and in my bed and it's just fine

01:52:48   and I can go two, three years without getting a new iPad

01:52:51   and I bet Apple hates that,

01:52:52   but that is a testament to the longevity

01:52:55   of even the worst-written iPad they have ever made.

01:52:57   It was a compromised device.

01:52:58   And I actually kinda like it when it gets warm

01:53:00   because my hands are always cold, so maybe that's not it.

01:53:02   (laughing)

01:53:03   - Well, to me, on a personal level for a minute,

01:53:08   I would say, now in retrospect, now having seen

01:53:12   both the iPad Air and now big phones,

01:53:16   I would say the iPad Mini is kind of a compromised device.

01:53:19   - The non-retina one, let's just get rid of that entire one.

01:53:21   - Well that one, yeah.

01:53:22   I wish, oh god, I hope they stop selling that next month

01:53:24   so we can stop supporting A5 chips anytime soon.

01:53:27   The iPad Mini doesn't fit in most pockets

01:53:30   unless you carry a significantly larger bag or a big jacket.

01:53:35   You know, the iPad mini, it's not always with you

01:53:38   like a phone.

01:53:39   It is also not as spacious and feel as the full-size iPad,

01:53:43   even though I know it's the same resolution,

01:53:44   but the full-size iPad is just much nicer.

01:53:46   It also, the full-size iPad is just a higher-end device.

01:53:49   You know, the Retina mini,

01:53:50   because it's unsubsidized like all the iPads,

01:53:55   it really is a very low-end device.

01:53:57   It is similar to the iPod Touch in like the quality

01:54:00   of components that it will probably usually end up getting.

01:54:04   I think the current one was a fluke

01:54:05   in that it had the same A7 as the big one

01:54:07   and the same capabilities and the same,

01:54:10   I think it even had the same cameras and everything.

01:54:13   It was just slightly clocked lower

01:54:15   and a lower quality screen.

01:54:17   Well, looking at the iPad Air now

01:54:21   and having owned now the Retina Mini,

01:54:22   I think if I buy another iPad,

01:54:26   well of course I'm going to buy another iPad at some point,

01:54:28   whatever iPad I buy next,

01:54:30   I'm almost certainly, I'm going to get the full sized one.

01:54:32   because I think the full-sized iPad is a better iPad.

01:54:37   Like, to serve an iPad-like role

01:54:40   for the kind of things I would use it for,

01:54:43   which is not bringing it around

01:54:45   as my portable device anymore,

01:54:47   but as a small tablet in the house.

01:54:50   Like, a small tablet to be next to my bed

01:54:53   or next to the couch, browse the internet on furniture.

01:54:58   It's great for that.

01:55:00   I think for portable use, the big phones are just gonna

01:55:03   eat its lunch because they're just so much better

01:55:06   at portable use, they're so much smaller,

01:55:08   they are always with you, they have better cameras

01:55:10   and they're higher end devices, there's way, way more profit

01:55:14   in them so they can afford to have better components,

01:55:16   better cameras, like all that stuff.

01:55:17   And they're always going to be higher end devices

01:55:19   and they're always gonna have cell plans

01:55:21   'cause you already have a cell plan,

01:55:22   like you don't have to worry about getting the cellular iPad

01:55:24   and having a separate plan or pooling it

01:55:25   with your existing one, like it's just such a more

01:55:27   compelling argument for portable use

01:55:30   to have just a little bit bigger phone,

01:55:32   and then to have no iPad, and then have the iPad,

01:55:35   if you're gonna have an iPad at all,

01:55:37   have it be the in-your-house portable casual tablet,

01:55:42   in which case the tending size, I think,

01:55:44   is better than the Mini.

01:55:45   - You know, my brain knows that you're right,

01:55:49   but God do I love my Retina iPad Mini,

01:55:53   and I, having had a third generation iPad,

01:55:57   and that's Aaron's iPad now,

01:56:00   I just don't see myself ever wanting

01:56:03   to go to a big iPad again.

01:56:05   But, you know, to each their own,

01:56:06   that's what makes the world go round.

01:56:07   - When the 12 inch comes out,

01:56:08   the 10 inch one will be the smallest,

01:56:10   so that's what you'll get.

01:56:12   - Maybe, we'll see.

01:56:13   - Can we bend some iPhones now, finally?

01:56:16   - No, oh my God, we're over two hours.

01:56:19   Are we really gonna keep going?

01:56:20   - We'll do it in the after show.

01:56:21   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.

01:56:23   Mobilux, Harrys, and Hover, and we will see you next week.

01:56:27   (upbeat music)

01:56:30   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:56:32   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:56:35   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:56:37   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:56:37   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:56:39   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:56:40   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:56:42   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:56:45   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:56:47   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:56:48   ♪ It was accidental ♪

01:56:50   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:56:51   ♪ And you can find the show notes ♪

01:56:53   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:57:01   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:57:05   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:57:09   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:57:14   U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A

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01:57:27   ♪ So long ♪

01:57:29   - All right, so you're bending your iPhone already?

01:57:32   You haven't even gotten one yet.

01:57:33   - No, the bent iPhone's thing,

01:57:35   this reminds me so much of our, you know,

01:57:37   the quartz screen and testing it

01:57:39   and scratching it with glass and stuff like that.

01:57:40   And I'm only gonna slam this one video

01:57:43   'cause it's the only one I saw,

01:57:44   but it was the one featured on time.com

01:57:45   that everyone linked to of the guy bending.

01:57:48   Did you guys see this?

01:57:49   bending his iPhone 6 Plus.

01:57:52   Mm-hmm.

01:57:53   Well, so it's one part--

01:57:54   if you're going to make a video of this,

01:57:56   obviously you're sacrificing a piece of hardware.

01:57:58   You're like, I'm going to see-- it's kind of like that guy was

01:58:00   doing with the screen.

01:58:01   I'm going to stab it with a knife.

01:58:02   I'm going to do this.

01:58:03   It's like a torture test to see what

01:58:06   can this device stand up to.

01:58:07   If you're going to go through all this trouble

01:58:09   and destroy a multi-hundred dollar device,

01:58:12   it's like the USB connector.

01:58:16   Wouldn't you spend some time, since it's such a big deal,

01:58:18   this connector is gonna be using a million devices.

01:58:20   This video is gonna cost me hundreds of dollars.

01:58:22   Let me think for five minutes about how I can,

01:58:25   how much value can I get out of this device,

01:58:27   of bending this device?

01:58:29   How much value can I get out of

01:58:30   stabbing the screen with a knife?

01:58:32   And I think you would have to say,

01:58:34   like you just bending the thing

01:58:36   or submitting it to a stress test,

01:58:38   or even if you had like a really complicated,

01:58:40   you know, Dr. Drang metal stressing machine,

01:58:43   there would be like digital readout

01:58:45   showing how much force and where the fulcrum is,

01:58:47   and all of a sudden it's like,

01:58:48   you have to compare it to something,

01:58:50   otherwise we have no idea if it's better or worse

01:58:52   than the other ones.

01:58:53   You have to bend to 5S, you have to,

01:58:55   you can't just do it in isolation.

01:58:57   So he takes the phone and he bends it

01:58:58   and it's really hard and it bends.

01:58:59   It's like, so what does that tell me?

01:59:00   You just bent your phone for hundreds of dollars.

01:59:02   You didn't tell me, well, I've bent to 5S

01:59:05   and it was harder, it was easier.

01:59:06   It was like, we assume that maybe it's easier.

01:59:10   Again, Dr. Duran can tell us exactly the equations,

01:59:13   how much more leverage do you get on a longer phone

01:59:15   and every extra millimeter gives you X amount of force

01:59:17   because of depending on where you put the fulcrum also.

01:59:20   You have to compare it.

01:59:21   You have to say stab this screen with a knife,

01:59:23   stab the old screen with a knife.

01:59:25   One is harder.

01:59:26   It's just basics.

01:59:27   I'm not asking them to be scientists here,

01:59:29   but if you're gonna destroy a phone,

01:59:31   the main thing we wanna know is,

01:59:33   is this big giant phone more susceptible to bending

01:59:36   than the old phones?

01:59:37   Don't just assume that because you can bend the new phone,

01:59:39   you have therefore imparted that information

01:59:41   that like, okay, well, we bent the new phone

01:59:44   And the only, the story is about the new phone,

01:59:46   therefore the new phone is worse.

01:59:47   No, bend the old phone too.

01:59:49   Like, it's just, it's so, so incredibly painful.

01:59:53   But as for bending it,

01:59:54   the only interesting information out of the bending was,

01:59:57   one, it looked really hard to bend,

01:59:59   and two, it bent, as the guy pointed out in the video,

02:00:02   it bent in the weak spot in the side

02:00:04   where the volume buttons come through

02:00:05   because that's the part, the little, you know,

02:00:07   semicircular curve is the most weak

02:00:08   because it's got, you know, the,

02:00:10   it's got holes in it or whatever.

02:00:13   All that said, I completely believe the story

02:00:16   that someone had an iPhone 6 Plus

02:00:18   in the front pocket of their pants

02:00:20   and that they ended up bending it.

02:00:21   And the reason I believe that is because

02:00:24   cloth is very strong, surprisingly strong,

02:00:27   especially to the strength of pulling on it.

02:00:29   It's not going to tear apart.

02:00:30   That's why we make pants out of cloth.

02:00:32   They don't rip apart when you wear them.

02:00:35   And a big man's thighs,

02:00:39   plus a bunch of really tight-fitting dress pants,

02:00:42   plus a phone and a pocket, I can totally see them

02:00:44   imparting enough force on a large phone to bend it.

02:00:48   But it's still, that doesn't answer any of my questions

02:00:53   which are, is this a problem unique to the 6 Plus

02:00:55   or would he also have bent any of the past models?

02:00:59   Would he also have bent an iPad Mini?

02:01:01   Who knows, we don't know.

02:01:02   So I feel like this story is still an open question.

02:01:06   If the iPad is more susceptible to bending

02:01:10   because it is larger and because you get more leverage on it.

02:01:13   Maybe a little bit of this responsibility

02:01:18   can go into Apple in that if you're making a device

02:01:20   slightly larger, people still might try to use it

02:01:22   like an old device by putting it in their pocket.

02:01:24   But hey, I put my old phone in my pocket.

02:01:26   This is a little bit bigger.

02:01:27   This fits in my pocket, I'll do that too.

02:01:28   Whereas I think no one was ever trying to shove

02:01:31   iPad minis into their pockets.

02:01:33   And if they did, they would be just as bendy

02:01:35   or even more bendy 'cause you get even more leverage on it.

02:01:38   Anyway, I don't think this is as big a non-story

02:01:40   as everyone else does, but first of all,

02:01:43   don't put your devices in your pockets.

02:01:45   I think when Tiff was on the show,

02:01:46   I couldn't believe that she put it in her pocket,

02:01:48   but even she said, "Well, I take it out before I sit down."

02:01:50   Don't sit on your vices,

02:01:51   don't put it on the front pocket of your pants,

02:01:53   because just because I think that it is possible

02:01:55   to put it in the front pocket of your pants and bend it,

02:01:57   you should still feel that,

02:01:58   like you still have feeling in your leg.

02:02:00   The amount of force you need to impart

02:02:02   on these metal things to bend them is substantial,

02:02:04   and when you feel that happening in your front pocket,

02:02:05   go, "Oh my God, I get like,

02:02:06   I put my tiny little iPod touch in my front pocket.

02:02:09   Sometimes when I sit down on a couch,

02:02:11   I feel a little bit of tension in the pocket.

02:02:13   Oh, I get right back up.

02:02:14   Just don't do that.

02:02:15   Don't think it's indestructible.

02:02:18   - I disagree with your statement

02:02:19   that people should not put their devices in their pockets.

02:02:22   - Yeah. - But--

02:02:23   - The six plus, it's not so much that you don't put

02:02:25   in your pocket, but for your back pocket.

02:02:28   No one's putting their phone in their back pocket

02:02:31   and sitting down on concrete, right?

02:02:34   My very limited understanding of these matters is that a lot of women do precisely that because their front pockets

02:02:40   Simply aren't large enough to handle even a 5s

02:02:43   I mean

02:02:43   But you'll crack the screen like just from like plopping your butt down on something

02:02:46   There's not enough cushion between the glass screen

02:02:49   Especially if you have no case and the thin back pocket of your pants and the concrete you'll end up chipping the glass on

02:02:54   The screen well you put you put the screen side towards the butt or the leg. It's screen side in

02:02:58   What kind of gadget owner are you?

02:03:00   - Well, see, here's the thing with putting the screen side in.

02:03:03   If you try to do that in your front pocket

02:03:04   and you got that little fake pocket

02:03:05   where the iPod Nano goes,

02:03:07   there's a little metal thing poking out of that.

02:03:08   So if you put the screen in,

02:03:10   and when you go into that pocket,

02:03:10   you will be putting that metal thing against your screen.

02:03:12   - Well, that's why your left pocket is made for devices,

02:03:16   because the little change pocket thing

02:03:18   is always only on the right side.

02:03:20   - Yeah, but that's only for lefties.

02:03:22   I agree with Jon.

02:03:22   - No, you guys are wrong.

02:03:24   - Anyway, putting in your pocket is like,

02:03:26   you can have it in your pocket

02:03:27   as long as you don't get that feeling like,

02:03:29   oh my God, I'm now crushing the thing that's in my pocket.

02:03:31   Right, 'cause you know that feeling when you sit down

02:03:33   with it in your pocket the wrong way,

02:03:35   or it's in your, like when you're standing up, it's fine.

02:03:38   When you start putting it under tension,

02:03:39   like you're gonna feel that.

02:03:40   If you put enough force with your pants pockets

02:03:43   on a device to bend it, you will feel that happening.

02:03:45   And if you feel it happening, going, oh, it's fine,

02:03:47   I'm sure it's indestructible, nothing will happen to it.

02:03:49   That's on you, but this gets back to what we just talked

02:03:53   about with the watch.

02:03:54   If Apple had made the iPhone 6 Plus two millimeters thicker

02:03:59   and strengthened it so it was heavier

02:04:01   and got better battery life,

02:04:02   would people have thought that was a worse device

02:04:05   or a better device?

02:04:06   - I think a better device, personally,

02:04:09   but that's not what Apple wants,

02:04:10   as you've said several times.

02:04:11   - Well, yeah, exactly.

02:04:12   The other angle is, well,

02:04:14   why do they keep making it thinner?

02:04:15   'Cause you don't get too radically thinner in one big jump.

02:04:18   You have to get there by little increments.

02:04:20   And if you don't keep getting thinner every year,

02:04:21   you're never going to get to the end point

02:04:23   and someone else will and you'll be screwed.

02:04:24   And so I understand Apple's philosophy behind this.

02:04:28   I just think there's room in their product line

02:04:30   for one device that doesn't make the same trade-offs.

02:04:32   I think overall they still need to keep going thinner

02:04:35   because that's making progress.

02:04:38   And I think that's moving towards something

02:04:39   that is radically better.

02:04:41   But along that path there are allowed to be bumps.

02:04:43   And if I was gonna make a bump,

02:04:45   I would make it with the big honkin' iPhone 6 Plus.

02:04:48   - We are moving towards a world,

02:04:49   and this is the first year

02:04:50   where there's been more than one new iPhone.

02:04:52   The 5C I don't think counts.

02:04:54   This is the first year where there's been more than one

02:04:56   radically new iPhone.

02:04:57   And so if there's gonna be,

02:05:00   obviously the only new iPhone of the year

02:05:03   is not gonna be some big thick battery monster.

02:05:05   But there is room in the lineup, as you said,

02:05:07   for multiple entries.

02:05:09   And if they had, say, a third entry

02:05:11   and it was a six plus plus 99

02:05:15   where it had an extra battery capacity in the back,

02:05:19   that would be fine.

02:05:22   That said, we all keep saying, oh yeah, we'd love

02:05:25   if they made it a little thicker and had more battery.

02:05:27   Battery twice as big or whatever.

02:05:29   But I'm not entirely sure that is what we would actually want

02:05:34   like we haven't held a device like that.

02:05:36   We don't know, batteries are so freaking heavy

02:05:40   that we don't know how that would actually feel.

02:05:44   Apple has most likely tried this.

02:05:46   They have labs, they try lots of things.

02:05:48   they've probably tried that, you know,

02:05:51   let's see how big we can make the battery

02:05:53   and balance the thickness and--

02:05:55   - I don't think they're balancing it that way.

02:05:57   I think their design goals are based on

02:06:00   thinner than last year.

02:06:01   As thin or thinner than last year.

02:06:03   I think it killed them to do the three

02:06:04   with the extra humpback.

02:06:06   - No, and that's, I agree, and I think Jason Snow

02:06:08   also had a good point on his new show,

02:06:10   what is it called, I gotta remember the name

02:06:12   of these things. - Upgrade?

02:06:13   - Upgrade, yes.

02:06:14   On Upgrade episode, I believe episode one,

02:06:16   he was talking about how it seems like Apple has

02:06:18   a target battery life, and they don't really feel the need

02:06:23   to give more battery life than roughly what we have now.

02:06:27   - Well, it's a minimum.

02:06:29   It has to be as thin as last year or thinner,

02:06:31   and it has to get as good battery life or better.

02:06:33   And or better and or thinner are always good,

02:06:36   but if you can't, you know, if you can't reach those goals,

02:06:39   it's like a barrier, you can't be below that.

02:06:41   And again, they had to compromise for the first Retina,

02:06:43   iPad, make it a little bit thicker than the two,

02:06:46   and I bet that was awful for them,

02:06:48   but you gotta do what you gotta do.

02:06:50   The thickness mostly has to do with battery life,

02:06:52   but the weight, what you were getting at, Margo,

02:06:54   is the key point, as someone points out in the chat room,

02:06:56   the HTC One M8 is two millimeter thicker,

02:06:58   and he says that it still bends.

02:07:00   That's why I mentioned not just making it thicker

02:07:01   to put in more room for the battery,

02:07:02   but also being willing to make it heavier.

02:07:04   And what do you do with the heavier?

02:07:06   You put heavier strengthening materials in there.

02:07:07   But the bottom line is all these things are bendable.

02:07:10   They're made of aluminum and glass, aluminum bends,

02:07:12   it does not spring back like plastic does.

02:07:14   Plastic shatters or breaks apart.

02:07:16   So like, you have to just not apply enough force

02:07:20   on these things to bend them.

02:07:21   I can take my iPad, put half on, half off the table,

02:07:23   and lean on one end of it and break it.

02:07:25   Like, you know, or bend it, or damage it in some way.

02:07:28   And that's why I think pockets and the pocketability

02:07:30   of this becomes a factor, or at the very least,

02:07:33   awareness of what's in your pocket

02:07:35   and what forces are being applied to it in your pocket.

02:07:36   Just because it can kind of barely fit in your pocket,

02:07:38   and then you sit down on concrete,

02:07:40   and you feel a bunch of clunks,

02:07:41   or you feel that stretching in your pockets.

02:07:44   Like, don't ignore that feeling.

02:07:46   It's not, they're not made of adamantium or unobtainium

02:07:50   or any other made up metal that's indestructible.

02:07:53   They can bend and they can break.

02:07:55   I mean, we know they can break when they drop them.

02:07:57   We just, we know we try to avoid dropping them.

02:07:59   We know they can bend when you apply lots of force on them.

02:08:01   Don't put them in a pocket that's going to apply

02:08:03   a lot of force to it.

02:08:04   - Yeah, I think it's important to keep in mind

02:08:07   two major factors when, whenever anyone brings up

02:08:11   a problem with the new iPhone, which happens every year.

02:08:14   Number one is you have to ask yourself,

02:08:17   does this happen to every phone?

02:08:19   Is this a problem with every cell phone that comes out

02:08:22   and therefore it's kind of probably unavoidable

02:08:26   or at least somewhat reasonable?

02:08:28   Number two, you have to consider that

02:08:30   when the new iPhone comes out,

02:08:32   if you can show a flaw with it,

02:08:36   you will get tons of attention,

02:08:38   you will get tons of page views,

02:08:39   you will get tons of ad money from those page views.

02:08:43   you have a lot to gain by pointing out a major flaw

02:08:46   in the new iPhone.

02:08:48   And this will happen every year,

02:08:50   and people will always try to figure out

02:08:51   what that flaw might be.

02:08:53   First, it was the antenna thing on the iPhone 4.

02:08:56   - The antenna was a much more solid case

02:08:58   than bending though, because the antenna was like,

02:09:00   you don't need a weird use case.

02:09:01   I can just show you that like,

02:09:03   and again, it gets with like, well, so that's fine,

02:09:06   but show me with other phones,

02:09:07   which is essentially what Apple did

02:09:08   when they did their video.

02:09:09   They didn't just say, hey, here's this,

02:09:11   because all the videos were, here's my iPhone,

02:09:13   then let me wrap my hands around it in a crazy way

02:09:15   and look, it gets no signal.

02:09:16   I was like, okay, well then show me

02:09:18   either last year's iPhone or previous ones.

02:09:20   And some videos eventually did do that, but that's the key.

02:09:23   If you can just do something and say, isn't this bad,

02:09:25   you have to compare it to something

02:09:27   that we either are familiar with or find acceptable,

02:09:30   which is why no one complained about bending

02:09:32   with every single other iOS device before.

02:09:34   Maybe all the previous iOS devices

02:09:37   were more bendable than the current range.

02:09:39   We don't know 'cause that comparison hasn't been made.

02:09:41   all people care about is,

02:09:42   well, I can bend this one if I try real hard.

02:09:44   Well, try to bend all the other ones

02:09:46   or don't bother telling me anything.

02:09:48   But bending is a crazy.

02:09:50   - Right, find other giant phones,

02:09:51   like try to bend the Samsung ones,

02:09:53   try to bend the HTC ones.

02:09:55   - Yeah, a couple of the people,

02:09:56   they built like, they built, someone bent an S4

02:09:59   and you can see it sort of comes to parts of the seams

02:10:01   'cause it's not just plastic

02:10:02   and then eventually the screen cracks

02:10:04   'cause the plastic allows more bending

02:10:05   than the aluminum does.

02:10:07   And once you bend the glass a certain amount, it shatters.

02:10:11   You're right that it's all just sensationalism.

02:10:14   From being the highest profile,

02:10:18   not the most popular in terms of sale,

02:10:19   but certainly the most popular in terms of like

02:10:22   what people care about, celebrity essentially.

02:10:24   The iPhone, the iOS devices are the celebrity devices.

02:10:27   Yeah, you're gonna get a lot of interest in any story

02:10:30   that shows something bad about them.

02:10:31   But as a consumer, there is an actual consumer angle here,

02:10:33   and the consumers want to know,

02:10:35   is this something I should care about,

02:10:36   or is it just one of those things?

02:10:37   And the way you do that is by saying,

02:10:39   How does it compare to products that I previously owned

02:10:42   that I am familiar with?

02:10:43   And the best way to do that is to compare it

02:10:45   to previous iPhones or previous iPads

02:10:48   or something like that to say,

02:10:49   is it better, worse, or the same?

02:10:50   'Cause that gives consumers actual information.

02:10:52   And then they can choose to ignore it or not,

02:10:55   not based on the whole idea of like,

02:10:56   oh, everyone always complains about Apple stuff

02:10:58   and so I should not pay attention to this.

02:10:59   Or, oh, that darn Apple, they're always doing bad things

02:11:02   so this is terrible.

02:11:03   Let me know, is it worse than a 5S,

02:11:05   better than a 5S, or the same as a 5S?

02:11:07   That gives me information.

02:11:08   and I can say, this person did this comprehensive test

02:11:11   that compared it against all these other things,

02:11:12   and it turns out that the iPhones are no worse

02:11:14   or better than any of the other ones,

02:11:15   then I know I can ignore the story,

02:11:17   but I haven't seen that story yet.

02:11:19   I can ignore it 'cause I'm not gonna stick these things

02:11:20   in my pocket and sit down with them,

02:11:21   but if that's the type of thing that you do,

02:11:23   you should be looking for a story that tells you

02:11:24   whether this is a concern or not.

02:11:26   - So, titles?

02:11:27   - I like the load-bearing finger.

02:11:30   - That is pretty good, actually.

02:11:32   Where is that?

02:11:33   - I like your holding your own case

02:11:34   better than load-bearing finger,

02:11:35   just because I disagree with Casey's whole holding technique.

02:11:38   - But I think he's right.

02:11:40   - No, it's not.

02:11:41   - You know, it's funny to me that both of you

02:11:44   are the self-declared official arbiters of everything,

02:11:48   of all the things.

02:11:49   - You're just realizing this now?

02:11:51   - No, I'm not.

02:11:51   - No, we're evaluating your holding technique

02:11:54   based on the things that you would measure

02:11:57   a holding technique on.

02:11:58   One of them is comfort, one of them has to be security.

02:12:01   Like there's criteria.

02:12:02   We're not just arbitrarily saying,

02:12:03   because you do it, it's bad.

02:12:05   We're trying to the way you evaluate anything what qualities of a of a way that you hold the phone are important when considering which?

02:12:10   Way of holding phone is better than another I

02:12:12   Don't even know what to say right now. It's not the way you evaluate anything

02:12:16   Whether you know it or not you do again to get back to the invisible spreadsheet that should be the title of one of our episodes

02:12:23   There is a spreadsheet it may be invisible to you. You may not have control over all the columns and numbers

02:12:28   You may not be even aware that they exist, but they do

02:12:30   do.

02:12:30   [BLANK_AUDIO]