82: The Flash Storage Is Adequate


00:00:00   Stop downloading stuff during the podcast.

00:00:02   You're going to mess up your band.

00:00:03   No, not only am I downloading, not only am I downloading Songs of Innocence, but I'm

00:00:07   also downloading the 1080 keynote as well.

00:00:11   Maybe don't do that.

00:00:12   Like 6.8 gigs.

00:00:17   I already hear your MacBook Pro fan.

00:00:18   Do you not hear that?

00:00:21   I can hear it.

00:00:22   Mine was downloading at 5 megs a second, but my Mac Pro didn't get any louder.

00:00:26   - I'll kiss my butt.

00:00:27   - Oh, chin with the pickle.

00:00:29   (electronic beeping)

00:00:30   - This is gonna be a really depressing episode

00:00:32   because not only do we have to talk about

00:00:35   some of the news from today,

00:00:36   but we have to talk about a silly monitor.

00:00:40   - Is it silly?

00:00:41   - It's silly.

00:00:42   - Is that silly?

00:00:43   It is that monitor long promised.

00:00:45   - This is, so every time we've talked about desktop retina,

00:00:50   and every time I've written about desktop retina on my site,

00:00:52   the topic always comes up of,

00:00:55   sometime in the distant future,

00:00:57   what we actually want is two times

00:01:00   the current 27-inch resolution,

00:01:03   which would be 5120 by 2880.

00:01:05   - Do you remember what I called it?

00:01:06   I don't like the two times thing.

00:01:08   - Well, it's technically four times, but--

00:01:10   - Yes, it's the quad 27-inch.

00:01:12   That's back when we were talking about,

00:01:13   when are we gonna get a Mac Trove,

00:01:14   are we gonna get it?

00:01:15   I said, I really wanna wait for the quad 27-inch monitor.

00:01:18   I'm still waiting 'cause this is from Dell.

00:01:20   - Well, yeah, so anyway.

00:01:22   So we were saying that this,

00:01:23   like I was under the assumption,

00:01:24   because there are multiple problems with this.

00:01:26   Number one is that's just so many pixels,

00:01:29   it's such a density that like,

00:01:32   Dell was just able to ship 4K ones

00:01:34   at a reasonable price at 24 inches,

00:01:37   which is roughly the same density at 24 inches.

00:01:40   They were just able to ship those like last year,

00:01:42   or the beginning of this year.

00:01:43   So that was very, very new.

00:01:46   And that's 4K resolution.

00:01:48   Now this is like, I think it's like 70% more pixels.

00:01:51   It's a massive jump.

00:01:52   It's the same, exactly the same for the same reason,

00:01:54   the same type of jump as it was to go

00:01:56   from 24 inch monitors to 30 inch monitors.

00:01:58   It's like, it's a big, big jump in just number of pixels.

00:02:02   The second problem is that pushing that many pixels

00:02:07   uses more bandwidth at 60 hertz

00:02:09   than Thunderbolt 2 can supply.

00:02:11   And so the only way to do it is to split it using MST,

00:02:15   which is its own kind of mess of half support and bugginess,

00:02:20   to split it between two different Thunderbolt buses

00:02:22   and monopolize most of the bandwidth of both of them,

00:02:25   'cause you need 28 gigabits, I think.

00:02:29   Yeah, the max is 20, right?

00:02:31   So you need 28.

00:02:32   So you basically split it into two halves,

00:02:34   left half, right half, make the computer,

00:02:36   make the video card think it's two monitors,

00:02:37   and then in the OS, fix it to see it as one monitor,

00:02:41   basically, that's the gist.

00:02:43   Anyway, so you need a heck of a lot of bandwidth

00:02:48   do this and special hardware support, special software support. So we were all assuming

00:02:53   this would not come out for a very long time. My estimate was two to three more years. Turns

00:02:58   out Dell has announced they're shipping one this winter, possibly December-ish and it's

00:03:04   only quote "only $2,500" and actually for what that is and for the jump that represents

00:03:11   that I believe is a fair price. There are some caveats to this. One of the biggest is

00:03:17   We don't know yet whether it runs at 60 hertz.

00:03:20   That's a problem.

00:03:22   There have been some 4K monitors that will run at 30 hertz,

00:03:25   and it's bad.

00:03:27   It's like people who use it say it's really rough.

00:03:29   You do notice the difference.

00:03:30   It doesn't look right, it doesn't feel right,

00:03:32   causes eye strain sometimes or whatever.

00:03:34   Not good.

00:03:35   So you really need it to be 60 hertz.

00:03:37   Anyway, so we don't know that, and we don't know,

00:03:40   currently for Mac people, nothing in the entire Mac lineup

00:03:45   has two Thunderbolt buses except the new Mac Pro.

00:03:49   So even if this comes out, assuming it uses

00:03:52   two different cables to plug into two different

00:03:54   Thunderbolt buses to achieve that high bandwidth,

00:03:56   the only computer that it even might be compatible with

00:03:59   is the current Mac Pro.

00:04:01   And we don't even know if the Mac Pro will have

00:04:03   the hardware and software tweaks needed to treat it right.

00:04:05   So it's a pretty, there's a huge list of ifs here.

00:04:09   And then on top of all of that,

00:04:11   we don't know if this monitor's gonna suck.

00:04:13   We don't like, it could, as John, you know,

00:04:15   it could be like Dell's monitors have spotty quality.

00:04:18   Some of them are good, some of them are crappy.

00:04:21   The previous ones that used MST, the 24 inch one,

00:04:24   the 24 inch 4K one, there were some bugs

00:04:27   with the MST implementation.

00:04:28   Supposedly they've been fixed,

00:04:30   but there were some pretty big bugs when it launched.

00:04:32   So it's kind of iffy as to whether this is going to work.

00:04:36   To me, what I think gives me promise here

00:04:40   is that if Dell can ship one of these,

00:04:42   this winter for $2,500.

00:04:45   That means Apple could too if they wanted to.

00:04:47   Maybe not for that price,

00:04:49   maybe they'd put it in an iMac first,

00:04:50   I think they probably would honestly.

00:04:52   I think what we're very likely to see this fall

00:04:55   is a retina iMac with this resolution

00:04:58   that is positioned above the current generation of iMacs.

00:05:01   So it wouldn't replace them.

00:05:03   It would be a new higher end model

00:05:04   'cause it would have to be much more expensive,

00:05:05   possibly starting at 3,000 would be my guess.

00:05:09   So maybe we'll see that,

00:05:10   maybe they'll just do 4K and do scaling

00:05:12   the way they've been doing on the other devices,

00:05:13   I don't know, but this would be amazing.

00:05:17   If Apple released this or if Dell's is actually really good

00:05:22   in a way that works on any other Mac,

00:05:25   or any Mac, this would be truly amazing.

00:05:28   And this is the true desktop retina big monitor.

00:05:32   I think the only other true retina monitor out there

00:05:36   right now is the Dell 24 inch 4K,

00:05:40   because that's the one that gives you,

00:05:42   it gives you exact 2X resolution of a standard size

00:05:47   at a standard density.

00:05:48   Like all the other 4K monitors,

00:05:50   the 4K resolution is twice 1080p.

00:05:54   And so a monitor that is roughly 1080p,

00:05:57   which 24-inch monitor classes usually are,

00:06:01   24-inch monitor, like old 24-inch LCDs,

00:06:04   that is like the right size for 4K to be retina.

00:06:09   anything bigger than that and either everything

00:06:11   on the screen is too large or you have to like

00:06:14   not render it exactly at 2x.

00:06:17   This monitor or any monitor with identical specs

00:06:19   as this monitor is the only way to get true retina

00:06:22   at 27 inches or 30 inches.

00:06:24   So that's why this is a big deal

00:06:26   and we weren't expecting this for quite some time.

00:06:28   - I don't think they're gonna put anything like this

00:06:30   in an iMac this year 'cause I think it's still too far.

00:06:33   Like I don't think they want that,

00:06:34   I don't think that it makes sense for the iMac

00:06:36   to stretch that far upmarket.

00:06:38   Eventually, sure, you know, when it becomes cheaper,

00:06:41   but I mean, I think when they do retina on the iMac,

00:06:45   it will not be at this resolution.

00:06:46   It'll be something smaller,

00:06:47   'cause it just doesn't make sense to me

00:06:49   with the way Apple's been treating the iMac line lately.

00:06:52   - Do you think, Marco,

00:06:53   if there is this hypothetical iMac

00:06:57   that has this hypothetical retina display,

00:07:00   would you give up your beloved trash can for this?

00:07:03   - I would give it a couple of months

00:07:04   to see if they released

00:07:06   standalone Thunderbolt display version of it.

00:07:08   - Or you know, a year or two years or however long it takes.

00:07:11   What was the gap between the 27 inch,

00:07:13   maybe it wasn't that long, but in various--

00:07:15   - I think it was about a year.

00:07:16   - In various times in the past,

00:07:17   it has seemed like an awful long time

00:07:19   between the release of an Apple device with the display

00:07:22   and the standalone display.

00:07:23   And we're always like, it's like the iPod Classic

00:07:26   that we'll talk about.

00:07:27   Do they care about individual displays anymore?

00:07:28   Are they gonna do that?

00:07:29   I mean, they released the new Mac Pro

00:07:31   and they really didn't care about monitors.

00:07:33   They're like, "Here, buy this thing from Sharp."

00:07:35   - Yeah, exactly, and maybe the reason why is because

00:07:39   their monitor wasn't ready yet.

00:07:42   Maybe they are planning a big update

00:07:43   to the Thunderbolt displays, but it just wasn't ready yet,

00:07:45   and it wouldn't be ready for six months,

00:07:46   they're like, all right, well, here, take this.

00:07:48   So I think this fall, obviously they're busy

00:07:52   with things that we'll get to, but I think

00:07:55   the Mac lineup has not seen a lot of updates,

00:07:59   because everyone's waiting on Broadwell.

00:08:02   I think it would be nice to do something like this,

00:08:05   you know, not to say that that's a reason they would do it,

00:08:08   but I don't know.

00:08:10   I think this fall is gonna be awfully quiet

00:08:11   for the Mac lineup unless they do something like 4K iMacs,

00:08:15   which they would call Retina, but yeah.

00:08:17   - Well, it'll be nice if they actually update the Mac Pros

00:08:20   with the new CPUs, right?

00:08:22   So that'll kind of be like for us to test

00:08:24   how much do they really care about the macro?

00:08:26   'Cause there's no reason they have to upgrade

00:08:27   with the new CPUs when they're available, but they could.

00:08:31   So this will be a good way to gauge their interest

00:08:33   in this product line.

00:08:34   Like do they bother updating them?

00:08:36   Do they just say, you know what, we're gonna skip this.

00:08:38   The current Mac Pros are fine.

00:08:40   People are buying them, we'll wait till next year.

00:08:42   - Do you wanna talk about a funny tweet that you saw, Jon?

00:08:44   - I did, yeah.

00:08:45   We talked a lot about sexism and the games industry

00:08:50   and stuff in the after show last show.

00:08:52   And I saw a couple of interesting things go by

00:08:56   in the week since.

00:08:57   This one was a tweet that struck me as funny.

00:08:59   It is from someone whose name I'm not going to attempt to pronounce, but his Twitter handle is Y-E-Z-Z-E-R, Yezer, I guess.

00:09:06   And he has tweeted a picture. People love to do this. They take a screenshot and tweet a picture of it, which doesn't really make that much sense to me.

00:09:14   Because, as if a screenshot is proof of anything, and I'm always amazed at people who look at screenshots, like, they'll ask for screenshots as proof.

00:09:22   You would think like kids today would be savvy and know that screenshots prove nothing

00:09:27   Like you're just like you can can right-click on any web page and make any screenshot you want kids

00:09:33   Anyway, that's not the point of this is not a proof thing

00:09:35   I he tweeted a picture of someone's tweet who has an egg icon and blacked out the identifying information

00:09:41   Because he's not trying to like make fun of this person or get this person harassed or whatever

00:09:44   and the text of this tweet says

00:09:48   My biggest problem with Anita, meaning Anita Sarkeesian of the Feminist Frequency videos,

00:09:52   is that if I used her logic, I could see sexism everywhere. And the commentary added by this tweeter is

00:09:58   teetering on the brink of an epiphany.

00:10:01   [laughter]

00:10:03   I thought this was funny, because it's getting back to like seeing the matrix type thing.

00:10:06   That reaction is natural for a lot of people being exposed to this stuff, and they're like,

00:10:12   "Geez, it's just like they see this stuff everywhere."

00:10:15   like, you know, like a conspiracy theorist, like, sees, you know, that the government is trying to

00:10:18   hunt them down everywhere or whatever, and so this person is, you know, offering that opposite

00:10:22   saying, kind of, absurd notion of — if I saw things the way this person did, I would see sexism

00:10:28   everywhere, and obviously that would be crazy. Like, they're not quite there yet. Anyway,

00:10:33   I thought it was funny. And the other thing related to this topic is a couple people suggested

00:10:37   the Twitter account "Everyday Sexism" to follow if you just sort of want, like, sort of ambient

00:10:42   Exposure to this viewpoint without feeling like you have to engage without without feeling like you're being yelled at or whatever

00:10:48   I don't follow the accounts. I don't know what the tone it's like. I just looked at some of the tweets

00:10:51   It's like aggregating

00:10:54   People things that happen to people during the day are things they think are sexist

00:10:59   They will you know

00:11:00   Funnel into this account and you can just add it to your Twitter stream and and just let it go by don't feel like you

00:11:04   Have to argue with it. Don't feel like you have to agree with all of it

00:11:07   Just that's another way to sort of expose yourself. I

00:11:11   I don't know.

00:11:12   I don't follow the account, so I can't vouch for it, but other people do when they

00:11:14   find it's helpful.

00:11:15   So I thought I'd throw that out there.

00:11:17   And can I just kind of jump on the feedback regarding the last episode just to thank pretty

00:11:24   much all of our listeners, all the feedback that I've heard almost exclusively.

00:11:28   There's, of course, a couple of bad apples here and there, but almost exclusively all

00:11:32   the feedback has been really positive.

00:11:34   And I've seen a lot of people talking about following the Host of Isometric Show and starting

00:11:39   to listen isometric.

00:11:41   And given the subject matter,

00:11:44   that could have taken a turn for the worst

00:11:47   in terms of listener response.

00:11:48   And I am extremely glad and proud

00:11:51   that so many people seemed pleased with how it was handled

00:11:54   and also seemed to be, enlightened seems a bit dramatic,

00:11:59   but I can't think of a better word,

00:12:00   so enlightened by the conversation.

00:12:02   And so many thanks to all our listeners

00:12:04   for sticking that one out.

00:12:07   - It was much, much less noisy

00:12:11   and contentious follow-up feedback

00:12:15   than when we discussed like Android phones.

00:12:18   (laughing)

00:12:19   If you wanna take sort of take the temperature

00:12:20   of our audience, topics that we can discuss

00:12:22   without much angry email, sexism.

00:12:26   Topics that we can't discuss

00:12:27   without a lot of angry email, Android.

00:12:30   So there you go.

00:12:31   Not saying that's good or bad,

00:12:32   that's just, that's the audience we have.

00:12:34   And you know, I was pleasantly surprised as well.

00:12:35   I thought our listeners, you never know when you touch on a topic, even though it technically

00:12:40   is tech related and it's all part of this community or whatever, you never know if you're

00:12:44   just going to suddenly draw a gigantic red line down the middle of your audience and

00:12:47   half of them are going to send you angry emails.

00:12:49   That did not happen.

00:12:50   It could just be because they don't care.

00:12:52   It doesn't mean everyone agrees with us.

00:12:54   Just be like, "Yeah, whatever.

00:12:55   We're waiting for you to talk about tech stuff."

00:12:56   All right.

00:12:57   How about the Megativo?

00:12:59   That looks like a Synology, but isn't?

00:13:02   Everybody was sending this like, "Oh, look, the sub-tivo finally made a thing for Jon.

00:13:05   - Yes, and I think the people who said that

00:13:07   don't understand my TiVo needs.

00:13:09   (laughing)

00:13:10   Have not captured the nuances of it.

00:13:12   So this is a product called the TiVo Mega,

00:13:15   and it's a rack mount.

00:13:16   What does it look like, Marco, for you?

00:13:18   - I think it's a minimum, right?

00:13:20   If you put three and a half inch drives on their side,

00:13:21   I think the smallest you can make it is for you, right?

00:13:23   - Yeah, and it's around $5,000.

00:13:26   TiVo hasn't priced it.

00:13:27   It's got 24 terabytes of storage,

00:13:29   and like we said, it's rack mount.

00:13:31   So obviously this is not something

00:13:33   that you stick under your TV.

00:13:35   And hey, look, it's got all the storage.

00:13:36   Isn't that great?

00:13:37   It's like, you always say you buy the most expensive TiVo.

00:13:40   The problem with this device,

00:13:41   not that I would ever entertain buying it,

00:13:42   but the reason it doesn't fulfill any sort of even like

00:13:45   silly fantasy of a TiVo that I might have,

00:13:48   is that the part, the sort of working part of this,

00:13:51   not the storage, the storage is obviously

00:13:53   all these hard drives and there's a lot of them, right?

00:13:55   But the working part of it is exactly the same

00:13:56   as the TiVo I have now.

00:13:57   It doesn't have more tuners.

00:13:58   I assume the interface is just as slow or fast,

00:14:01   depending on how you want to get it.

00:14:02   Like it doesn't have any better features than the TiVo.

00:14:05   All it has is like my TiVo with tons more storage

00:14:08   and you know, cooling and everything and power supply

00:14:10   to power that storage and so on and so forth.

00:14:12   I'm not running out of room on my TiVo.

00:14:14   My problem is not storage.

00:14:15   I always want it to be like having all HD interface,

00:14:17   be faster, be more responsive, you know,

00:14:19   have the built-in apps be nicer.

00:14:20   That's what I want.

00:14:21   And this doesn't fulfill any of those things.

00:14:23   So it's not really my fantasy TiVo.

00:14:25   As for who this TiVo is for,

00:14:26   initially when I saw the announcement, I'm like,

00:14:28   oh, they're going after, you know,

00:14:30   shows like the Daily Show who like record tons of channels of television that have people reviewing them

00:14:34   So that's where they can you know

00:14:37   Get all that footage from and play it back sort of

00:14:39   Institutional DVR. It's not for an individual

00:14:43   But it's for like a company to try to capture all these channels and have a bunch of employees reviewing them or whatever

00:14:47   But that's not what this is for. There's another company that does that by the way. What's their name?

00:14:51   How to link this

00:14:54   Snap stream snap stream makes giant rack mount DVR type things for just that purpose

00:14:58   This TiVo is apparently for rich people

00:15:00   So it's not it's not for

00:15:03   Institutions to use because apparently doesn't have according to the Ars Technica article put in the show notes

00:15:07   It doesn't have like the the exporting

00:15:10   Facilities that the professional devices use to sort of get into the video workflow of broadcast television or whatever

00:15:15   It's more like if you are very wealthy and have a crazy entertainment center and have like a separate room or closet where all your television

00:15:21   Stuff is this is where you would put that rack, right?

00:15:25   So and you just want to record everything and it only has six tuners. There's not so much you can record

00:15:30   Maybe you just want to record it and hoard it. I don't know

00:15:32   I really don't think this is gonna be a big winner product for them because it's not sort of something they're going to sell television

00:15:38   studios and television shows and

00:15:40   I don't even not sure how many rich people really want to have a giant rack Mount Tevo

00:15:46   But there you go rack Mount Tevo. I disagree

00:15:48   I think a written your stereotypical rich person just wants the best darn Tevo that money can buy and when you say well

00:15:55   you could record three years of television. I want that.

00:15:58   But you can't. Think of the numbers they give. That's SD. Who records SD? They always inflate

00:16:03   the number.

00:16:04   This is also like, as somebody in the chat said, this is like for the custom installation

00:16:08   market. This is for people who have so much money and are building such an expensive home

00:16:12   theater setup that they're paying somebody else to design the whole thing for them and

00:16:17   install it in their home and build the little server rack closet and everything.

00:16:20   Yeah, oh, yeah, these people aren't installing it themselves. But even for that like it's not

00:16:24   Even with those people they say these are the features that I want, right?

00:16:27   I want this that and the other thing and I don't know if I don't even know if TiVo fits on a list like

00:16:31   What are those names of those crazy things that rip they rip blu-ray? I know what you're talking about

00:16:36   I forget what I don't think it's legal

00:16:38   No, it is that you have to keep the discs in the device. So they have giant jukeboxes

00:16:43   Yes, so they rip they rip all your blu-rays

00:16:45   But since it's illegal to play them back without the blu-ray in the drive is a giant like jukebox type thing says well now

00:16:51   It's legal because all the things are in the drive

00:16:54   Anyway, that is like I think it's called kaleidoscope because the chat room is attempting to spell kaleidoscope and spelling it in a bunch

00:17:01   Yeah, kaleidoscape

00:17:03   So those type of things you sell that as if you're an installer if you're a media center installer you say hey

00:17:09   Blu-ray is the best quality movies you can get now for you know that you can buy for yourself

00:17:13   Which is true unless I guess you're buying your own like film printer 70 millimeter film prints or something anyway

00:17:18   Blu-ray is the best digital copy you can get

00:17:20   You'd like to be able to have access to a giant collection of blu-rays on demand whenever you want

00:17:26   This device gives you that this TiVo thing. It's like well you could get just the plane

00:17:32   You know the regular person TiVo that I have now

00:17:35   But you'll run out of room if you don't if you don't watch anything that you record for like three weeks

00:17:40   And you record tons of stuff so really you should get this $5,000 thing that won't run out of room

00:17:45   That will last like you I mean you if you record this much stuff and never watch it like you're never gonna catch up

00:17:51   It's not it's too much storage like you know you don't have you only have six tuners

00:17:55   You can't you can't say like my old dream was record every single channel on television

00:17:59   You know for a week and that way whenever I want to watch something

00:18:03   I don't have to choose what to record you recorded everything all I have to choose is what I want to watch based on a

00:18:07   moving week window or two week window or whatever but this can't do that because

00:18:11   it's only got six tuners so I don't understand this product. This is such a

00:18:14   like super charging a horse problem this is ridiculous anyway which do you think

00:18:20   will sell more this or the Amazon Fire phone? If you're a rich person and you

00:18:26   say I want a DVR and money is no object and now I'm an installer and I think

00:18:32   well money's no object I better give them the best darn DVR they can that I

00:18:35   I can buy, they're going to get this ridiculous TiVo that really, to your point, serves no

00:18:39   particular purpose other than to make rich people feel like they have the best TiVo in

00:18:43   the world.

00:18:44   Right, and this, you know, like the kind of installation we're talking about that has,

00:18:48   you know, a custom home theater stuff and stuff like this going into it, that might

00:18:51   be like a 75-grant installation.

00:18:54   So like, you know, the $5,000 for one component is not that outrageous.

00:18:57   Oh no, it's funds $5,000 for an HDMI switch and those things.

00:19:01   Right.

00:19:02   I'm not saying the price is the limiting factor.

00:19:03   I'm just thinking like feature wise, I don't know if this is bringing anything to the table

00:19:07   that a regular TiVo wouldn't and the installer can can charge $5,000 for a regular TiVo like

00:19:12   the price of the thing has no bearing on what the person gets charged for the installation.

00:19:16   Our first sponsor this week is our friends at hover. Now, last time, I mentioned that

00:19:22   a lot of people kept writing and telling me I was pronouncing the name wrong. Turns out

00:19:27   I went and I asked them, Hey, can you send me in a recording of you pronouncing this

00:19:33   name for me. Hello and greetings from London. The correct pronunciation for your sponsor's

00:19:38   name is hover. I also had hover employees that I was in contact with. I had them record

00:19:44   themselves saying it. So I have the authoritative pronunciation of this company is hover. And

00:19:51   the main difference seems to be that if you are British or Australian or some other country

00:19:56   that speaks a variant of British English instead of real English like us, I love you. Please

00:20:02   email Casey. No! Well you have a whole podcast about that. So if you speak

00:20:08   some variant of British English you probably pronounce it hover with more of

00:20:14   more of an O instead of a U sound on the first O. And so that seems to be the

00:20:18   main difference but anyway hover which is the correct way to pronounce it is

00:20:22   the best way to buy and manage domain names. Hover. It gives you exactly what you

00:20:26   need to get the job done when you want to get a new name for yourself, your site,

00:20:30   your business, a new fun project, or even if you're just buying a .coffee domain to troll me,

00:20:35   whatever you're doing, Hover is a domain registrar that does not suck. That's saying a lot. There are

00:20:41   a lot of domain registrars out there. I've tried many of them myself. I have not been very happy

00:20:46   with most of them and Hover I'm happy with. And that should tell you something. The interface is

00:20:51   beautiful. The support is beautiful. They have all the new TLDs you can imagine. They have all these

00:20:56   built-in features that you don't have to pay extra for. They give you domain privacy built-in. They

00:21:00   They don't feel like nickel and diming you.

00:21:02   They know what people need and what people don't

00:21:04   and you don't have to uncheck 10 different boxes

00:21:07   to say please don't spam me,

00:21:09   please don't publicize my information

00:21:11   to the entire universe.

00:21:12   No, I don't want your additional 10 hosting packages,

00:21:15   thank you very much.

00:21:16   It's just simple.

00:21:18   The interface is nice, it's respectful.

00:21:20   It's respectful of your time

00:21:21   and it's respectful of your money.

00:21:23   It's a very good value.

00:21:24   So they also have amazing 24/7 phone support.

00:21:28   You can just call them if you want

00:21:29   And you can also do the usual things.

00:21:31   You can email them.

00:21:31   They have knowledge bases and stuff online,

00:21:33   but you can also call them during business hours

00:21:35   and a person, a real person who works for Hover,

00:21:38   Hover, Hover,

00:21:41   Hovercast, picks up the phone and they can help you.

00:21:47   There's no holds, no wait, and no transfers.

00:21:49   They just pick up the phone and help you.

00:21:51   It's amazing.

00:21:52   - Hovercast, it's Hovercast.

00:21:54   My favorite podcast app is Hovercast, Hovercast.

00:21:59   Also, they have this fantastic service called Valley Transfer Service, where if you have

00:22:04   a bunch of domains somewhere else, or even multiple different registrars, let's say

00:22:07   you have a bunch of domains you've collected in like three different registrars over the

00:22:11   years, they will move them all over for you. And this is at no charge, and they will do

00:22:17   everything correctly. They will import your DNS correctly, which is something that is

00:22:20   very hard to do without making a mistake every time. Everyone has messed up DNS at some point

00:22:26   who's tried to move domain somewhere,

00:22:28   and they will do all this for you.

00:22:29   It's really fantastic.

00:22:30   So--

00:22:31   - Hover.

00:22:31   - Is great.

00:22:32   I really can't say it any better than that.

00:22:33   So thank you very much to--

00:22:34   - Hover.

00:22:35   - For proving me right about pronunciation,

00:22:37   and also for sponsoring our show.

00:22:39   If you do decide to support them,

00:22:42   use our coupon code for this week.

00:22:43   It is necessary but not sufficient.

00:22:46   (laughing)

00:22:47   So if you can actually remember and spell all of that,

00:22:50   necessary but not sufficient will get you 10% off.

00:22:54   - Is it Hoover?

00:22:55   Hoover like vacuum. So go to hover.com, register your domain names. And don't forget to use

00:23:00   offer code necessary but not sufficient to get 10% off your first purchase. And to show

00:23:05   your support for our show. Thank you very much to hover for sponsoring our show once

00:23:08   again.

00:23:10   If you if we got through that ad read, and you're still wondering if you're American,

00:23:13   and you're still wondering what the heck people were talking about with the alternate pronunciation,

00:23:17   I the best word I can think of, it's a sound alike that I think most Americans will pronounce

00:23:22   in the sound-alike way, is a small crappy house, a hovel. Just take that first syllable and put

00:23:28   "er" at the end. Hover. Sorry, I can't do it. But anyway, that's amazing.

00:23:35   You can't do it because it's not right.

00:23:36   The thing that kills me about this whole pronunciation debate is that all the people

00:23:41   who wrote us were so incensed in a way that they wouldn't be if we said—like, just think of any

00:23:49   other word you can say in a British accent. American and British English sound different.

00:23:53   We all know they sound different. There are words they say different than us. And this

00:23:56   one was something like, "Oh, you just don't have an accent. You're not saying like..."

00:23:59   I don't know. What do you think of a word that sounds different in British English than

00:24:04   regular? We all accept all these other words. But this one was like, "You're not just speaking

00:24:08   with an American accent. You are saying the word wrong, and you're saying it wrong in

00:24:11   a crazy way." Which makes me think that British people haven't seen enough American movies

00:24:15   that involved the word hover in the script, because it's not weird at all.

00:24:19   And it was so easy to tell.

00:24:20   As soon as we said, "What are we saying?

00:24:22   We're at everybody else."

00:24:23   And everyone who wrote it was, "Oh, by the way, I'm in insert British colony here that's

00:24:26   not America."

00:24:27   [Laughter]

00:24:28   So, all you people need to get together and add this to your list with, like, "lift"

00:24:32   and "Lory" and "torch" and all those other things.

00:24:35   Like, just add the list of things and everyone will tell each other, "This is one more

00:24:39   way that American and British English is different."

00:24:41   And there's not a bunch of American people mispronouncing a word.

00:24:44   We just speak differently.

00:24:45   All right, so we have to go from this to a bunch of genuinely sad news.

00:24:52   I'm not trying to be funny anymore.

00:24:54   There was some really, really, really unfortunate news today about Macworld.

00:25:02   I speak for all three of us in saying that we have a whole bunch of friends that work,

00:25:09   I guess, worked at Macworld, and many of them got laid off today.

00:25:16   And that's a really awful thing, and I've been so lucky not to have ever been through

00:25:20   that.

00:25:21   Although, Jon, I think you had said you had, and so maybe you can talk about that in a

00:25:24   second.

00:25:25   But these are really, really, really, really awesome people.

00:25:28   And a couple of them have already been moving in the direction of new things anyway, and

00:25:32   so I'm very thankful for that.

00:25:35   But it's a really, really terrible thing.

00:25:37   And even as someone who never really read all that much Macworld, I'm still disappointed

00:25:44   by it because I know what it meant to the community.

00:25:46   And it stinks.

00:25:48   And I feel real bad for all of our friends.

00:25:50   So best wishes to all of them.

00:25:52   Yeah, this is probably more significant for old people like me because I grew up reading

00:25:57   these paper—before the internet—these paper magazines about the Macintosh, MacUser,

00:26:01   in MacWorld Magazine from the beginning, and a lot of the names and faces that are associated

00:26:09   with MacWorld either have been there for a long time or came from MacUser, which I also

00:26:13   read.

00:26:14   MacUser was my old favorite back in the day, mostly because it was probably friendlier

00:26:17   to 11- and 12-year-old me or whatever age I was when I was reading that.

00:26:22   But Jason Snell came from there, and then he was in charge of MacWorld and then in charge

00:26:26   of even more things at the parent company of MacWorld.

00:26:29   Yeah, pretty much everybody almost everybody that I knew and almost the entire staff of macro magazine got laid off which sucks

00:26:37   I have been through many jobs and many similar situations my usual sort of

00:26:44   Way I handle this is when I feel like the company is going down the drain

00:26:48   I start looking for something else and I get out before I actually get laid off

00:26:53   But that is not you would think oh, that's a better way to do it

00:26:55   It's not really like doing it's exactly the same thing because it's basically you're in a situation where you realize your job is

00:27:01   Going away, and if it's not you don't know when it's gonna be could be tomorrow could be next week could be next year

00:27:07   But you have to do that whole thing where it's like I don't want a new job. I enjoy my job

00:27:11   I like the people I work with but now I need to get a new job and

00:27:14   It's it's a terrible feeling no matter how it happens, and it's it's probably even worse although

00:27:21   This has never happened to me to just come into work one day and say guess what you don't have a job anymore. Sorry

00:27:25   And that's got to really suck for the people who were just totally blindsided.

00:27:30   I wish the company, the parent company that runs Mac Pro, could have figured out how to make a successful business.

00:27:38   From this, it's difficult to make that transition from the old world where they were dominant paper magazines to the new world where paper magazines are not as important.

00:27:47   But they had all the pieces, they had all the talent, they had all the people. It wasn't a bunch of old fogies there.

00:27:52   Like, it was, they had a complete age range of people who knew what they were doing, who

00:27:57   were savvy with all the things.

00:27:58   It's just like, the people steering the ship just couldn't figure out how to make it work.

00:28:03   And someone tweeted earlier today, like layoffs are basically when someone who makes a lot

00:28:07   more money than you is bad at their job and you suffer for it, right?

00:28:10   Because it's not these people's job to make the company, you know, figure out how the

00:28:15   company is going to make money, like big picture wise.

00:28:16   Like, they don't have control of that.

00:28:18   Their job is to like, do the best writing and reporting they can, do the best reviews

00:28:21   they can or whatever their individual jobs are they could be doing their jobs

00:28:24   amazingly well and I think they were it doesn't matter because they don't get

00:28:28   make the decisions about what the company does and that in the end is what

00:28:32   ended up costing them their jobs that's just the way of the world so I feel

00:28:35   terrible for these people and the thing I think about when they're out there in

00:28:38   the marketplace now if you're thinking of hiring these people some there is you

00:28:44   know we just talked about the you know paper print magazines being sort of a

00:28:48   thing of the past and having to make that transition. There are some aspects of that world

00:28:52   that are, I think, still valuable and now suddenly become unique. So if you run a website like Ars

00:28:59   Technica or, you know, MacRumors or iMore or anything like that, these things came up in the time where

00:29:05   part of the excitement of that is you could type whatever you want, hit a button, it went out and

00:29:10   to millions of people could read it. And it was much less formal and much more sort of personal

00:29:16   and exciting and raw, right?

00:29:20   As opposed to like a print magazine process

00:29:22   where you write it and it goes through editing,

00:29:24   copy editing, and it gets smoothed over and it comes out.

00:29:26   I'm not gonna say it's like more professional

00:29:28   'cause it makes it sound like the websites

00:29:29   aren't professional, they are.

00:29:30   It's just a different tone, right?

00:29:32   And the people who work or worked for Macworld

00:29:36   are the people who know how to work in that environment.

00:29:39   And like, for example, if there was some writer

00:29:42   working for Macworld and wrote just something crazy

00:29:44   and just start filling it with expletives

00:29:46   and yelling about things and just being terrible,

00:29:50   that wouldn't get out in Macworld.

00:29:53   Macworld, I'm not gonna say it was like a family magazine,

00:29:55   but that wasn't done in the print world.

00:29:57   You didn't just have someone just go off

00:29:59   on a crazy unsubstantiated rant

00:30:01   and then you wouldn't publish that

00:30:02   because paper pages were precious

00:30:03   and you wouldn't do that type of thing.

00:30:06   And the new world is not like that.

00:30:07   And so I'm not saying one is better than the other,

00:30:08   but suddenly the people who are used to writing

00:30:10   in that environment are now different.

00:30:13   Now they are the oddball.

00:30:16   Now they are the interesting, unique thing

00:30:18   because there are tons of websites out there

00:30:19   with sort of a less formal process

00:30:22   and more sort of raw, exposed writing.

00:30:26   These people know how to write a sort of like,

00:30:28   maybe you could say they know how to write

00:30:29   a boring sounding or whatever.

00:30:31   I just think, you know, I'm gonna say it again,

00:30:33   it's not really what I even,

00:30:34   the professional is the word that I'm thinking of,

00:30:35   but it's not really the right word,

00:30:37   but like you read it and you feel like these are adults

00:30:40   writing for adults in a mature manner that is considered and

00:30:45   and well written and well articulated.

00:30:48   And that's something that I think needs to be part of the current sort of stew

00:30:55   of tech journalism.

00:30:57   And it is part of it.

00:30:58   Some some publications skew one way or the other.

00:31:00   Like not everything is like, you know, BuzzFeed.

00:31:02   And at the other end of the spectrum, I don't know what you would put on there.

00:31:05   but the people coming out of Macworld know how to do that.

00:31:10   If you want somebody who knows how to do that,

00:31:12   these are the people, and I think that skill

00:31:14   is much more rare than somebody

00:31:15   who knows how to just bang out.

00:31:17   I tried the iWatch and it was,

00:31:19   I'm still calling it the iWatch,

00:31:20   I tried the Apple Watch and it was really cool

00:31:22   and it was shiny, and there's a place for that.

00:31:25   I'm not saying that's bad.

00:31:26   People like to read that, it's exciting,

00:31:28   but I feel like we have much more of that now

00:31:30   than we have Macworld.

00:31:31   Macworld's sort of not entirely going away.

00:31:33   The print magazine is going away,

00:31:34   the website's gonna be together,

00:31:35   but all those people who are writing all those words,

00:31:39   I hope they find someplace to write in,

00:31:45   to put their skills that they've gained,

00:31:46   those hard-earned skills they've gained to use,

00:31:49   because I think that type of voice

00:31:50   needs to be part of the tech journalism ecosystem.

00:31:54   - And the other interesting thing about Macworld,

00:31:59   to be completely selfish for a second,

00:32:00   was that they actually published something I was a part of,

00:32:02   which was extraordinarily exciting.

00:32:05   And I mean that genuinely.

00:32:06   I mean, I called my mom to say, hey mom, guess what?

00:32:10   I'm a published magazine writer, sort of-ish, kinda.

00:32:15   But nevertheless, it was extremely cool.

00:32:17   And like I said, everyone I've met there

00:32:19   is just so phenomenally awesome.

00:32:20   And I'm really bummed.

00:32:22   I'm bummed for all of them,

00:32:24   but I'm also happy because I'm sure,

00:32:26   I'm absolutely unequivocally confident

00:32:28   that they are all gonna find some new and exciting venture.

00:32:31   Someone in the chatroom suggested formal

00:32:33   instead of professional.

00:32:34   That's a better word because I don't wanna say professional

00:32:36   because it makes it sound like the websites

00:32:37   aren't professional and they totally are.

00:32:39   Like formal or family friendly, I don't know, considered.

00:32:44   I mean, I think it's a hybrid because this Macworld crew,

00:32:48   like it's a shame this came right after

00:32:50   the Apple Watch event and everything.

00:32:52   They would descend on an event and they would file

00:32:54   tons of stories, well-written, correct,

00:32:58   fact-checked, researched, just like in an amazing speed, especially like I was always amazed by how

00:33:04   fast everyone can write well there. Like everyone on their staff could not only bang out story after

00:33:09   story, they were all good stories and they were all well written. Someone like me who really

00:33:12   struggles to get any words out that I am, that I find remotely acceptable, I was always amazed

00:33:17   that they could just be like, "Oh, I gotta write this story out, da-ka-da-da-da-da-da-da-da."

00:33:20   Half an hour later, it's done. I'm like, I don't even know, I'm just like magic. It's like watching

00:33:23   magic happen. Right, because they're professionals. Like, you know, you, you are a professional

00:33:26   but you very rarely write,

00:33:29   like you write this one big thing a year,

00:33:31   whereas they do this every day.

00:33:32   Like this is their job.

00:33:34   Their job is to write in that way,

00:33:37   to that quality, to that standard.

00:33:39   And they do that, they did that full time.

00:33:42   - And other websites, like every website,

00:33:44   like iMore does it, Ars Technica does it,

00:33:46   MacRumors does it, they all do it.

00:33:47   It's just that like, it just seems so much harder

00:33:49   to do it in the way that MacWorld does it.

00:33:51   Or again, at the very least, it is now a rarity.

00:33:54   What was once like the only way you could write about technology you know every magazine was like that is now a rarity and becoming more

00:34:01   Rare so what I'm saying is I just hope that that stays in the mix somewhere

00:34:04   You know I want someplace where I can read stuff like that like beside

00:34:07   Macworld was in my rotation of things that I would read I have tabs open with

00:34:11   Macworld stories right now like for you know things from my os 10 review because they've done the whole bunch of previews

00:34:17   And I want to make sure I don't miss anything they covered or I want to get their point of view and things like this

00:34:20   Like it's just and what am I gonna do when that's not there? You know it's gonna be disappointing

00:34:24   - Yeah, they also, they're leaving behind

00:34:27   this very much like a real world impact

00:34:31   in this technology world.

00:34:31   Like Macworld Magazine is the only magazine

00:34:34   I've ever written for that I didn't own.

00:34:37   It's the only time I've ever written something

00:34:40   that was in print.

00:34:41   It's the only time anybody else has ever paid me

00:34:43   to write something.

00:34:44   I wrote one thing for one issue of Macworld.

00:34:46   And that was a huge honor.

00:34:48   I also have in the corner of my office

00:34:52   a Macworld Eddy trophy for Instapaper

00:34:54   from let me see if I can see it. I believe it says 2010. Yeah. So I have a Mac world

00:34:58   Eddie. It's when you get a Mac world Eddie, it's like their annual editors choice awards.

00:35:03   It is it is this tremendous heavy statue. It's like this giant trophy. It's actually

00:35:08   it's got it. It's got to be 15 inches tall. And it can't come in this big box weighs a

00:35:13   ton. It's great. It's this nice like physical artifact, this big trophy of something you

00:35:18   did in the virtual world that you don't usually get real life impact for, you know, and that's

00:35:23   nice and like when I was printed in the magazine, my grandparents went out and bought like 10

00:35:28   copies of the magazine. My mom went out and bought copy and like showed all of her friends

00:35:31   like yep. It's and like this is like without old publications like Mac world. It's hard

00:35:38   to start to impress old people. Yes, I really old people like pair our parents and grandparents.

00:35:43   Yes. I mean, it's really it's an end of an era like was it used to be Mac world expos

00:35:47   were Apple to announce their stuff paper magazines were the king they had huge staffs. I'm I

00:35:51   I remember talking to Jason the first times I met him about,

00:35:54   I really love when MacWorld and MacUser used to do those reviews of printers

00:35:57   and they would show magnified versions of the serifs on the different letters,

00:36:01   the output of laser printers, and you'd have like,

00:36:04   it was kind of like DPReview as today for a photographer,

00:36:06   where you'd see like an entire page spread of like all the little serifs on a letter T

00:36:10   with all the different printers so you could see which printer did the serifs better,

00:36:13   and they're like huge, extensive, really detailed reviews,

00:36:16   and he said, "But we just don't have the staff for that anymore."

00:36:18   Like, I mean, it's the, you know, it's the same everywhere.

00:36:20   It's a slow steady decline of paper publications,

00:36:22   whether it be newspaper, paper magazines, and everything else.

00:36:25   It just seems like under different or better leadership,

00:36:28   Macworld had the staff and the skills

00:36:31   to make the transition completely

00:36:32   into a viable website like all the other tech websites.

00:36:35   It's just that it just didn't happen.

00:36:39   And I think no matter how you do it, it's a hard business.

00:36:42   I mean, I ran a magazine briefly.

00:36:45   And even running a small iPad magazine

00:36:50   that had no full-time staff,

00:36:52   and then eventually one full-time staff,

00:36:54   and then had no print edition, had no photographers,

00:36:58   no like half of an editor first, then a full editor.

00:37:01   I was doing it on such a tiny scale,

00:37:05   and it was really hard to make that work,

00:37:07   even with almost no overhead, with no history,

00:37:12   no old obligations, like nothing like that,

00:37:14   and it was impossible for me to make that work myself.

00:37:18   I know this, and even just running my own website

00:37:21   and seeing other people run their websites,

00:37:23   and I know the economics of this are challenging.

00:37:26   And it's very easy to be a hobbyist

00:37:30   or a part-timer in this field.

00:37:34   It is very hard to have a big enough company

00:37:37   that you can afford to hire other people full-time

00:37:39   and do things properly, do things well,

00:37:43   do things with professional journalist standards.

00:37:45   It is extremely hard to fund that.

00:37:48   And I think you can look around and see how few places

00:37:51   are that way and how well they're doing.

00:37:53   And you can kind of see that, you know,

00:37:56   this was, you know, I don't know the Macworld management.

00:37:58   I don't know how they were running things over there.

00:38:01   But I would say that under any management,

00:38:04   this probably would have still happened.

00:38:06   - Yeah, it's just really crummy.

00:38:08   - We are also sponsored this week by Warby Parker.

00:38:11   Warby Parker believes that prescription eyeglasses

00:38:13   simply should not cost $300 or more.

00:38:16   They bypass the traditional retail channels and sell higher quality, better looking prescription

00:38:20   eyeglasses online at a fraction of the usual retail prices.

00:38:25   Their glasses start at just $95.

00:38:27   You can see this for yourself at warbyparker.com/att.

00:38:37   Warby Parker's designs are vintage inspired with a contemporary twist.

00:38:41   Every pair is a custom fit to you.

00:38:43   anti-reflective, anti-glare polycarbonate prescription lenses and every pair comes

00:38:48   with a very nice hard case and a cleaning cloth so you don't need to buy

00:38:51   any overpriced accessories on top of that additional price. They now offer

00:38:55   progressive lenses starting at just $295 including frames. This is a very advanced

00:39:00   type of lens. I believe from from listening to Dan and Merlin's slow

00:39:04   descent into insanity, from what I gather this is like what replaced bifocals

00:39:09   and modern lenses.

00:39:10   Do I have that right?

00:39:11   Well, anyway, if you wear progressive lenses,

00:39:14   or if you need progressive lenses,

00:39:16   they now have that at Warby Parker now

00:39:18   for a great price compared to what you pay anywhere else.

00:39:21   Progressive lenses have a distance prescription at the top

00:39:24   and then transition to a reading lens near the bottom.

00:39:26   That's how they work.

00:39:27   So it is, I think it is like old bifocals, right?

00:39:29   They probably just look a lot better and work a lot better.

00:39:31   Anyway, Warby Parker's progressives

00:39:33   are digital freeform lenses,

00:39:35   which this is the most advanced progressive technology

00:39:37   for manufacturing.

00:39:38   This is higher precision and a larger field of vision

00:39:41   than traditional progressive lenses.

00:39:43   Now, buying glasses online sounds like it would be risky.

00:39:46   Like, how would you know whether they'll fit

00:39:48   or whether they'll look good on you?

00:39:50   Warby Parker has you covered.

00:39:52   First, their website has a helpful tool

00:39:53   that uses your computer's webcam to give you a preview

00:39:56   of how the glasses will look on your face.

00:39:57   It can even help you measure your eyes and face

00:39:59   to get the fit exactly right.

00:40:01   And I actually know, my wife did this exact same thing

00:40:03   on their site and it was really nice.

00:40:06   I was very impressed by how good their online tools were.

00:40:10   Now, once you get past that though,

00:40:12   they have this great thing called the Home Try-On Program.

00:40:15   So you can borrow up to five pairs of glasses risk-free.

00:40:18   They will ship them to you for free.

00:40:20   You can try them on in the comfort of your own home

00:40:22   for five days, and then you can send them back

00:40:24   with a prepaid return label.

00:40:26   There is no obligation to buy,

00:40:27   and all of it is completely free.

00:40:30   They also offer prescription and non-prescription

00:40:32   polarized sunglasses, which is one of the reasons

00:40:34   I'm looking at them.

00:40:35   because I have definitely lost the biological lottery

00:40:38   in a few areas, but fortunately I have very good eyes.

00:40:41   So I at least have that going for me.

00:40:44   So I don't need prescriptions,

00:40:45   but I'm looking at them for sunglasses

00:40:46   because it is so hard to find good sunglasses

00:40:49   for reasonable prices and they have a great selection.

00:40:52   And if you need prescription sunglasses,

00:40:54   of course they got you covered there too.

00:40:56   And they are polarized,

00:40:57   which I know this might be controversial on the talk show,

00:41:00   but I love polarized sunglasses

00:41:01   and I don't have any problems with various LCD screens

00:41:04   looking weird at the angle that I look at them

00:41:06   with polarized glasses.

00:41:07   Warby Parker also believes in giving back to the world.

00:41:10   For every pair of glasses they sell,

00:41:11   they also give another pair to someone in need

00:41:14   through various vision charities.

00:41:16   So anyway, go to warbyparker.com/atp.

00:41:19   Check out their great selection

00:41:21   of premium quality affordable eyewear.

00:41:23   Get yourself one of the risk-free home try-on kits for free.

00:41:27   Try on up to five pairs of glasses for five days

00:41:29   right in your own home.

00:41:30   You can see how they look,

00:41:31   you can ask your significant other,

00:41:32   you can even wear them outside if you want to

00:41:34   ask other people. Anyway, thanks a lot warbyparker.com/ATP.

00:41:40   I have some bad news for you about your perfect vision, Marco.

00:41:44   Look, I don't expect it to last. Right about when your son is entering high school,

00:41:48   you'll be able to take advantage of those prescription lenses. Anyway,

00:41:52   so there was an Apple event that we almost saw. That we almost saw, and then we saw

00:41:56   it in multiple languages all at once. Can we just start by

00:42:00   saying that, I'll start by saying that I'm so disappointed that this story that

00:42:04   someone, this post that someone wrote about what they think caused Apple's

00:42:07   streaming problems, it's just passed around everywhere and like every time I

00:42:11   saw it on upside I'm like no not you too. If you saw a story today trying to

00:42:16   explain what Apple streaming's woes were, chances are you saw this story whose

00:42:21   link I don't even have in the show notes. I believe it's like streaming media

00:42:24   blog.com or streaming something blog. Yes it did not appear to have any good

00:42:28   information and it looked it just didn't make any sense and everyone who knows

00:42:33   anything about websites or web technology all said that and yet it

00:42:37   still ran on every single site so I find that disappointing it was talking about

00:42:42   like the interactive blog stuff and the JSON things like there were nuggets of

00:42:45   truth in there but none like there was no inside information and the

00:42:49   speculation didn't make any sense and yet everyone ran it like here's an

00:42:52   explanation of why Apple streaming sucked it did not explain it very well

00:42:55   well at all. It did not seem to have conclusive inside information and yet it

00:42:59   gets spread everywhere. Anyway, let's ignore that for now. I didn't think that was a good

00:43:02   article. We don't know why they screwed up. Apple has done streaming many times

00:43:06   in the past and not screwed up. This week was not one of those times they

00:43:12   screwed up. Although I will say, you know, since I don't trust their streams will

00:43:15   ever be good, I had a multi-redundant solution going here with Apple TV,

00:43:20   a VPN connection and then my actual home ISP, you know, regularly.

00:43:25   And among those three of those, I always had a stream that was working.

00:43:29   Now granted, the stream that was working very often had Chinese over the top of it.

00:43:33   And then after the Chinese was gone, it had Japanese.

00:43:35   But eventually, when we got to the good part, everything was solid.

00:43:40   They had serious problems with their AV stuff, but I was happy that all those technical difficulties

00:43:44   happened in like the first half an hour, 40 minutes or whatever.

00:43:47   when they got to the big announcement,

00:43:48   everything was nice and clear.

00:43:49   Anyway, let's talk about what they announced

00:43:52   because we don't have that much time left.

00:43:54   - Can we start at the very beginning with the intro video?

00:43:56   - I give a thumbs down to the intro video.

00:43:59   - So the problem I have,

00:44:01   I watched, I sort of watched the stream when it happened.

00:44:04   And then last night in preparation for today,

00:44:06   I watched it again and it actually worked this time.

00:44:11   A lot of what happened during the presentation

00:44:16   made me just kind of cringe and do the thing.

00:44:20   And like the beginning intro video,

00:44:22   when they first did it, I don't know,

00:44:24   like a WWDC or two ago, I was like,

00:44:26   "Oh yeah, that's pretty awesome."

00:44:29   But I feel like doing this every time

00:44:31   is getting a little self-indulgent.

00:44:33   And I feel like a lot of the things they did,

00:44:37   if this was Samsung that did the exact same thing,

00:44:41   the internet would have lost it.

00:44:43   - No, you need to watch the Samsung thing

00:44:45   to know what you're really talking about.

00:44:47   Watch the Samsung, what was it, Galaxy S4 was it?

00:44:50   You don't know, I dare you to watch the Samsung,

00:44:55   and you'll feel better about this.

00:44:56   But anyway, I didn't like this intro,

00:44:58   I think it's because of this specific intro video.

00:45:00   The intro video with the dots that they showed seven times,

00:45:02   I thought that was fantastic.

00:45:03   It was short, it was to the point.

00:45:04   - Yeah, the first three times it was great.

00:45:06   - Yeah, it was short, it's to the point, it's clever,

00:45:09   it makes its point in both words and in images.

00:45:13   This one was overly long, was showing us a trick

00:45:17   that we've all seen from that OK Go video,

00:45:18   and OK Go is apparently all pissed about that.

00:45:20   By the way, if you haven't seen this video,

00:45:21   we're talking about it, it's the very beginning

00:45:23   of the show, those things where you look at a room

00:45:26   from a certain angle and all the little markings

00:45:27   in the floor and wall line up to make it look like text

00:45:30   that's sort of floating in front of you.

00:45:32   It's a whole bunch of real world physical optical illusions

00:45:35   that they bring the camera through.

00:45:37   Anyway, it just dragged on and the things it was saying

00:45:41   and the little words were just, it wasn't as tight.

00:45:46   It was, you know, it just, you know, anyway,

00:45:48   I think having intro video fine,

00:45:50   especially on an event like this that's so important

00:45:52   with the whole Apple Watch being introduced

00:45:53   and all this other stuff,

00:45:55   I think having intro video was appropriate,

00:45:56   this just wasn't a great one.

00:45:58   - See, I'm with you, like, I think it was just boring.

00:46:02   Like, you know, we have to realize

00:46:04   that what we're watching here, this is a marketing event,

00:46:07   and we're watching a two-hour long commercial.

00:46:11   And when you have great, amazing products being announced

00:46:14   and you have great personalities announcing them,

00:46:18   it's easy to forget that and see it

00:46:20   as this great, exciting event and actually really get into it

00:46:23   and get into the fun and the wonder of it.

00:46:26   But when you get too far into the pre-produced videos

00:46:31   and marketing messages and everything,

00:46:33   the illusion starts to fall apart a little bit.

00:46:35   And that's why moments like that, I thought,

00:46:38   or when they are too video heavy in general in the keynote,

00:46:41   or when they're like,

00:46:42   here, we're gonna show you three commercials we've made.

00:46:45   I don't like the movie showing off the commercials

00:46:48   in the keynote, 'cause it helps contribute

00:46:52   to breaking that illusion and to reminding us

00:46:54   that we're watching a two-hour-long commercial

00:46:56   rather than the way we probably like to think of it

00:46:59   as an exciting announcement for our industry

00:47:02   and the future of our society using these devices.

00:47:04   That's how the good ones make us feel.

00:47:08   but whenever they go off on too much

00:47:10   like commercial video basically and marketing messages,

00:47:14   I think this, I think it breaks that a little bit.

00:47:16   - I think it really depends on the thing.

00:47:17   Sometimes they show us a commercial

00:47:19   and especially when it was Steve Jobs,

00:47:20   commercials are 30 seconds, they're usually funny,

00:47:24   it's not a big deal, it's over quick

00:47:25   and he was always so excited to show you

00:47:26   whatever commercial he was excited about.

00:47:28   The videos where it's some talking head

00:47:31   on a white background telling you about what they had to do

00:47:33   to design the whatever part of the whatever,

00:47:35   those can at least sometimes be interesting and cool

00:47:38   and they spend a lot of time on them.

00:47:40   I think incorporating one into a keynote

00:47:43   is a reasonable thing to do.

00:47:44   It's the sort of touchy-feely ones

00:47:49   where it's really easy to go off the rails.

00:47:51   And I think the touchy-feely intro was a little bit--

00:47:55   I don't know.

00:47:56   It seemed just too fuzzy and vague.

00:47:59   It did not seem as precise as the other little dots

00:48:03   and lines video.

00:48:04   It seemed just like a bunch of weird platitudes

00:48:07   that did not connect in a way the other video did

00:48:11   with either things we already believe about Apple

00:48:13   or things that we were going to believe

00:48:15   after seeing the thing, it just ended up, you know.

00:48:17   But anyway, I don't think they'll ever show that one again.

00:48:18   I hope they don't, unlike the DOTS one,

00:48:20   which they obviously really loved.

00:48:22   - Yeah, and the intro video was nowhere near as bad

00:48:26   as the infomercial that was in the center

00:48:28   of the presentation, but we'll get to that later.

00:48:30   - Which one, the watch one?

00:48:31   - Here's how you pay with a credit card,

00:48:35   and oh my God, it's so hard.

00:48:36   - That was actually funny at least.

00:48:38   - Oh no, it was not.

00:48:39   - I think it was unintentionally funny.

00:48:41   - Oh God, this is gonna last so long.

00:48:43   All right, so let's talk about the iPhones,

00:48:46   which was the first thing they announced.

00:48:49   The iPhone 6, my initial impressions,

00:48:51   6 and 6 Plus, excuse me.

00:48:53   My initial impressions, it's bigger, meh.

00:48:55   Remind me of this when I eventually get a bigger phone

00:48:58   and I tell you it's the best thing ever.

00:49:01   I really am not digging the lens protruding

00:49:04   on the back of the phone.

00:49:06   And I'm surprised that the internet didn't lose their crap

00:49:09   about that either.

00:49:10   - Some people have, but take it from me

00:49:12   as an iPod Touch owner with a protruding lens

00:49:14   for many years, it's not as bad as you think it is,

00:49:17   it's fine, you'll be okay, trust me.

00:49:18   (laughing)

00:49:20   - Yeah, I think it's one of those things like,

00:49:22   I did see, I'm sorry, I forget who it was

00:49:24   and I should credit, but I totally forgot,

00:49:27   but I saw there was a series of tweets by somebody

00:49:29   that was retweeted a million times and eventually got to me

00:49:31   where it was like, you know,

00:49:34   the entire world is asking for better battery life.

00:49:37   - Yeah, that was Forgotten Towel, I believe.

00:49:40   - Everyone is asking for more battery life.

00:49:43   Nobody is saying, boy, I really love my iPhone 5,

00:49:46   but it's too thick.

00:49:46   Everyone is saying, boy, I really love my iPhone 5S,

00:49:49   but I wish the battery lasted longer.

00:49:51   But anyway, I think, you know, we'll see.

00:49:53   I don't think that the battery life

00:49:56   for the 5S is that terrible.

00:49:58   I like the idea of things getting thinner

00:50:01   if you really care, get a giant phone.

00:50:03   The most noteworthy thing about the iPhone part

00:50:06   is that once again, all the parts leaks were dead on.

00:50:09   The only thing that people didn't know

00:50:12   were the resolutions, which Gruber had obsessed over

00:50:15   and he got one right and one wrong.

00:50:18   And the whole Sapphire screen thing,

00:50:20   the screen has some kind of coding on it,

00:50:23   I forget what word they're using for it.

00:50:24   - They said like an ion deposited screen or something, right?

00:50:27   - Yeah, it probably is the screen they were testing

00:50:29   in all those videos. - Yep.

00:50:30   but it's not made of Sapphire or any other.

00:50:33   There's Sapphire in it.

00:50:34   Apple didn't mention it.

00:50:36   So there you go.

00:50:37   That was obviously not the thrust of the phones.

00:50:40   Otherwise they're exactly what everybody showed

00:50:42   in all those different parts leaks.

00:50:44   And they have all the things we wanted.

00:50:45   The A8 we didn't know much about.

00:50:46   We still don't know much about.

00:50:47   I assume the phones all have one gig

00:50:49   or I would have heard about it by now.

00:50:50   Do you guys all know?

00:50:51   - That's what I've heard.

00:50:53   - I mean, maybe, I don't know.

00:50:54   I think, I feel like I would have heard about it.

00:50:56   It was gonna be two gig.

00:50:57   It looks like an A7 that's tweaked

00:50:59   because the speed increase was, what did they say,

00:51:01   like 15% or 20%?

00:51:02   It's not like when the AA7 came out today,

00:51:05   this is twice as fast as the A6.

00:51:06   It's not like that kind of leap.

00:51:08   The GPU makes a bigger leap,

00:51:09   but it's always easier to make a bigger leap with GPU

00:51:11   because you just add more execution units.

00:51:14   It's 20 nanometer, which is good.

00:51:16   That's sort of a, you know, of the same,

00:51:19   like, so Intel is going to 14 nanometer with Broadwell

00:51:22   if it can ever ship them.

00:51:23   So Intel is still ahead,

00:51:25   but Intel's previous process was 22 nanometers.

00:51:27   So this is kind of like,

00:51:28   It's a big leap up from 28.

00:51:30   It's not down to 14, but it's significant.

00:51:33   So these look like good phones,

00:51:36   the camera with the extra optical stabilization

00:51:39   and all that other stuff.

00:51:40   The protruding, like I said, won't be a big deal,

00:51:42   especially with people who use cases,

00:51:43   the protruding will actually be a non-issue entirely.

00:51:47   - Also, the optical image stabilization

00:51:49   is only in the big one.

00:51:50   And what I thought was interesting was

00:51:53   when they were describing the optical image stabilization

00:51:55   and how it worked, they said it uses the M7

00:51:58   and the CPU to move the lens around.

00:52:02   Now, see, I don't know how optical stabilization

00:52:05   works in point-and-shoots,

00:52:07   but I do know how it works in SLRs,

00:52:08   and in SLRs, optilinear stabilization is like,

00:52:12   the lens element itself spins.

00:52:15   And, at least this is how Canon's works.

00:52:17   And so, it has its own gyroscopic effect

00:52:20   so that the movement is instantaneous, and so it's awesome.

00:52:23   I can't imagine, if it's shifting the element around,

00:52:27   like using software to sense gyroscopic input

00:52:30   and then shift the thing around.

00:52:32   How is that fast enough?

00:52:33   Software is really fast.

00:52:35   Computers are really fast.

00:52:37   Instructions execute in nanoseconds.

00:52:39   And it's probably like the things that are moving it.

00:52:42   First of all, it's not moving it much.

00:52:45   And second, it can move at those small distances very quickly.

00:52:49   So the thing they showed in the video

00:52:51   is obviously a crazily exaggerated.

00:52:52   Like, they can move up and down.

00:52:55   It's more like a barely visible vibration, I would assume.

00:53:00   Obviously, it's not going to be as good as optical image

00:53:03   stabilization and SLR, but they're

00:53:05   doing what they can to try to make it so that if they have

00:53:07   to leave the shutter open a little bit longer because it's

00:53:09   dark, you don't get as much blur.

00:53:11   Don't expect miracles from this.

00:53:12   It's still a camera the size of a thimble.

00:53:14   Yeah, and the other thing is-- and it's in only the big one.

00:53:17   Now, have you guys done the printed out paper things?

00:53:21   Of course.

00:53:22   No, but I saw you did.

00:53:23   I did not.

00:53:24   I'm just going to wait.

00:53:25   So I printed out the paper,

00:53:26   I'm willing to in the show notes of, you know,

00:53:28   where you can get these PDFs.

00:53:30   I think what's interesting,

00:53:33   so before I printed this out,

00:53:35   I was saying, you know what,

00:53:37   if the big one has a better camera,

00:53:39   I'll just get the big one,

00:53:40   because having a better camera is important to me.

00:53:42   And if it has any other major improvements,

00:53:45   I'll get the big one.

00:53:46   Then I printed this out, and then I cut them out,

00:53:48   and then I actually tried holding the big one

00:53:51   and the small one.

00:53:53   And oh my God, it is so frickin' big.

00:53:56   Like the 5.5, the 6 Plus, wow.

00:54:00   Like it is so big that if I hold it

00:54:02   the way I usually hold a phone,

00:54:03   which is I hold it on my left hand,

00:54:05   corner of the phone is resting in my palm,

00:54:09   fingers are wrapped around the right side,

00:54:10   thumbs on the left side, I can't reach the home button.

00:54:15   Like that's how, like I can't,

00:54:16   my thumb can't reach the home button.

00:54:18   - Oh God, that's a good point.

00:54:19   - Like it's crazy.

00:54:20   Like, so even even they're like their thing that drops the screen down to reachability.

00:54:25   That's what they're using that word.

00:54:27   So janky.

00:54:28   Yeah.

00:54:29   Even that, which is Yeah, that's not a great salute.

00:54:31   It I mean, I guess it's better than like, putting it in a corner.

00:54:35   I guess it's better than shrinking the hospital corner, but maybe just barely better.

00:54:38   Like it's not that much.

00:54:40   But people don't use those giant phones that way.

00:54:41   I've seen a lot of people using a giant and they don't use them holding them the way you're

00:54:44   holding them.

00:54:45   They use them either like a sidekick where you're holding it in landscape and using your

00:54:48   your thumbs to type or they use it two handed.

00:54:50   And sometimes they're using it like the Galaxy Note,

00:54:52   sometimes they're using it two handed and with the stylus.

00:54:54   Now there's no stylus for this,

00:54:55   but you can buy after market ones.

00:54:56   In fact, my mother has one of those and she likes using it.

00:54:59   It's very strange.

00:55:00   But anyway, they're not using it the way you're using it.

00:55:02   You're trying to use it like a traditional iPhone

00:55:04   with your one hand and it's totally awkward that way.

00:55:08   Now the one handed mode thing,

00:55:09   that is a very pragmatic solution.

00:55:11   It's not great, but it's certainly better than nothing.

00:55:14   The worst thing I think it might do is encourage people

00:55:17   to think that they can use it that way,

00:55:19   because that's not gonna save you.

00:55:20   The little double tap home button would slide down,

00:55:22   that's not gonna save you from,

00:55:23   like you said, you can't even get to the home button

00:55:24   if you try to hold it that way.

00:55:26   I feel like the people who know they want this phone

00:55:29   already are handling giant phones like this,

00:55:31   or have had them in the past,

00:55:33   or they're gonna use them differently.

00:55:35   It's kind of like saying when the iPad came out,

00:55:37   I can't even wrap my hand around this thing,

00:55:39   my hand's already, you don't hold it that way,

00:55:40   you don't use it that way, it's a different form factor.

00:55:43   So if this was the only phone, it would be disastrous,

00:55:45   but it's not and everyone who's tried the 4.7

00:55:48   tells me it's reasonable.

00:55:50   I am reserving judgment until I can try one myself,

00:55:52   not made of paper.

00:55:54   - Oh yeah, I mean obviously this could be different

00:55:56   once you get it in your hand,

00:55:57   but the paper prototypes make it,

00:56:01   it makes it so that I am definitely gonna get the 4.7.

00:56:05   And so, and let me tell you why also,

00:56:07   like this is why it was also easier for me

00:56:09   to make this decision and just like,

00:56:11   if I can pre-order it, which actually I can't

00:56:13   'cause of stupid upgrade eligibility, anyway,

00:56:15   I'm just gonna get the 5.7, the 4.7.

00:56:17   I'm not gonna try to try to get both and return one

00:56:20   and try to get the 5.5 and try to try it first in the store

00:56:23   'cause I know I won't be able to.

00:56:25   The reason why is twofold.

00:56:27   Number one, it's not like this is the only year

00:56:29   we're gonna have this size.

00:56:31   4.7 is already a huge upgrade, so let me go to that first

00:56:34   and then see if that's big enough

00:56:36   before I start jumping over another size.

00:56:39   Second, the 5.5 is so big and unwieldy

00:56:43   and it's so poor for single-handed use,

00:56:46   apparently, obviously I can't confirm it yet,

00:56:49   that I feel like it will do better

00:56:53   in a world where the watch is commonplace.

00:56:56   Because the watch will, in many situations

00:57:00   in which you'd be taking out your phone

00:57:01   and having to use it one-handed,

00:57:01   like if you have to take out your phone

00:57:03   while you're walking down the street,

00:57:05   or like walking the dog, something like that,

00:57:08   that's a situation where you'd use your phone

00:57:10   with one hand to do something quick.

00:57:12   the watch will presumably eliminate a lot of those needs

00:57:16   to take the phone out of your pocket

00:57:17   for that kind of situation.

00:57:19   And so I'm thinking the 5.5 might make more sense

00:57:23   to get next year, 'cause the watch isn't even gonna be out,

00:57:26   supposedly, until early 2015 or spring,

00:57:29   whatever word they used.

00:57:30   That probably means April, you know,

00:57:33   or maybe later, and that's if it's on time.

00:57:35   It might mean June, you know, like we don't know.

00:57:37   And then the next iPhones will be out

00:57:39   next September probably.

00:57:41   And so, you know, this is the kind of thing like,

00:57:45   once the watch is commonplace,

00:57:47   I think the bigger phone will be more palatable

00:57:50   to more people and it might be a better trade off

00:57:52   'cause like, I would like a better camera,

00:57:54   I would like better battery life,

00:57:55   I would like a big screen when I'm using certain things,

00:57:58   when I'm reading certain things,

00:57:59   when I'm browsing websites,

00:58:00   like I would like the bigger screen in some cases.

00:58:04   But because I still have to keep taking it out of my pockets,

00:58:06   do all sorts of one handed things so often,

00:58:08   that's gonna be a problem.

00:58:09   Whereas in the future, that might not be the case.

00:58:12   - Which one do you think you're gonna get, a 64 or 128?

00:58:15   - That's the great thing that made this decision easy.

00:58:16   I've been getting 64 for the last few revisions

00:58:19   of the device, only because 32 just wasn't

00:58:22   quite enough space sometimes, but a 64,

00:58:25   I've never filled up a 64 gig device reasonably.

00:58:28   So I'm gonna keep getting 64,

00:58:30   now it's just 100 bucks cheaper.

00:58:32   I think, and John, I'm curious,

00:58:34   what do you think of the new capacities in pricing?

00:58:38   It didn't predict it.

00:58:39   It's a very clever way to succumb to the realities

00:58:44   of reduced parts prices over the years.

00:58:47   Like Apple has been living in a fantasy world

00:58:49   where 1632 and 64 gigs of flash of the required spec

00:58:54   is somehow has not changed in price

00:58:56   in like the however many years

00:58:58   they've been running these capacity.

00:58:59   - Seven years or something.

00:59:01   - No, because they used to be, anyway,

00:59:03   they have, it's just been way too long

00:59:04   and they're like, all right, all right, here's a 128,

00:59:07   Here's the 64, but the low end model is still 16.

00:59:11   It seems punitive.

00:59:11   Like I've said, it's like the RAM thing.

00:59:13   I think this is a decision made by people

00:59:18   who are worried about Apple's margins

00:59:20   more than they're worried about Apple's customer experience.

00:59:23   Not that I'm saying you can't have a 16

00:59:24   or even an eight for people who want it,

00:59:26   but if you're only gonna have three models,

00:59:28   to continue to sell the 16 and make it the cheapest one

00:59:30   is gonna drive a lot of people who are price sensitive

00:59:32   into a phone that does not have enough capacity

00:59:35   for the things they're gonna do with it.

00:59:36   It's not saying that 16 isn't,

00:59:38   people are gonna say, "I have a 16, I never fill it."

00:59:40   That's fine, that's great.

00:59:41   It's just that because it's a low-end model,

00:59:43   people are gonna say, either they're gonna say,

00:59:45   "I have no idea what a gigabyte is,

00:59:47   "I just want the cheapest phone."

00:59:49   And they don't realize that they're the type of person

00:59:51   who take tons of video, or take a lot of pictures,

00:59:54   or wanna put a lot of, they don't know what their usage is.

00:59:56   And 16, I can tell you, even moderate usage,

01:00:00   if you fill it up with videos you take yourself,

01:00:03   and pictures and a couple of movies that you buy

01:00:07   and a lot of big apps, especially games,

01:00:09   which can be gigantic, you can fill 16 really quickly.

01:00:13   And that's a disappointing experience.

01:00:15   And there's really, like,

01:00:16   there's no price justification for that 16.

01:00:19   That 16 could have been a 32, which is twice as much.

01:00:21   And it's a big deal because that extra 16 is all storage,

01:00:25   whereas the original 16, part of that is by the OS

01:00:27   and all the other stuff.

01:00:29   So I think there's going to be an ever so slightly larger

01:00:32   group of people who are disappointed because they're price sensitive, they can't afford

01:00:37   the 32er, don't want to pay it, and they either don't know or have that they're going to fill

01:00:42   a 16 or have no choice but to try to fit their stuff in a 16.

01:00:45   And that's not a good experience because iOS generally does not behave well when it's out

01:00:48   of storage and it makes a bad experience.

01:00:51   Maybe the deleting of, you know, the auto deleting of message attachments, unless you

01:00:56   say save, will help a little bit in this regard for storage sizes.

01:00:59   But it's really disappointing to me, especially like in the in the six, like if they're going

01:01:03   to do that on the five or something or one of the other or the five C or whatever, like

01:01:08   you can keep that like I understand you have to have that in but for the flagship six line

01:01:13   to go 16 64 128 that 16 really sticks in my craw.

01:01:17   I do not like it.

01:01:18   Yeah, I wonder I wonder if they would mid cycle bump it up.

01:01:21   I mean, probably not.

01:01:22   They have done things like that in the past, but it's been a while.

01:01:25   But yeah, it just it looks like it's screwing you.

01:01:29   It doesn't look nice.

01:01:30   It looks like a cheap move.

01:01:32   - And they're differentiating on,

01:01:34   that's what they've chosen to differentiate on.

01:01:36   They don't differentiate on RAM, obviously,

01:01:38   'cause they don't tell you anything about RAM.

01:01:40   And I think it is also disappointing

01:01:41   they still only have one gig,

01:01:42   but I can kind of excuse the RAM for power requirements.

01:01:46   You know, if, again, we get back to the thinness thing,

01:01:48   well, if you made the thing a millimeter thicker,

01:01:49   you wouldn't have to worry about that, would you, Apple?

01:01:50   But you can kind of excuse that,

01:01:54   but I mean, it should really have two gigs of this.

01:01:56   So it's not as important as it is in the iPad.

01:01:58   I really hope the next iPad Air does have two gigs

01:02:01   because it's just that, you know,

01:02:02   the assets and everything there are just so much bigger

01:02:06   in terms of like texture sizes and all this stuff.

01:02:08   It's not like there's a dedicated pool

01:02:10   of VRAM hanging off the side of this thing.

01:02:13   You know, so the RAM situation is more dire

01:02:15   on a thing with a giant screen

01:02:17   and the power constraints are much bigger on the iPhone.

01:02:20   But I mean, how long can we keep this up?

01:02:23   How long do we go with one gig?

01:02:26   this has got to be the last generation, right?

01:02:28   And I hope next, I mean, they're not going to do this

01:02:30   'cause it's SOC thing, but like mentioned they went to,

01:02:32   okay, and the, you know, the iPhone 6S

01:02:34   or whatever the heck they're going to call it,

01:02:36   has two gigs of RAM, except for in the low end model,

01:02:38   which has 16 gigs of flash.

01:02:39   And anyway, they won't do that probably.

01:02:41   Yeah, they have to pick some,

01:02:45   what can you differentiate?

01:02:46   They come in colors, but those will cost the same.

01:02:49   They use the storage sizes as their tiering structure

01:02:51   for making you pay more money and to help their margins.

01:02:55   And now the screen sizes.

01:02:57   - Yeah, well the screen size too.

01:02:58   The screen size, I don't think they're using

01:02:59   the screen size for tiering,

01:03:01   'cause a bigger screen just really does cost more.

01:03:03   Like, not $100 more, but that's kind of like their increment.

01:03:07   You know what I mean?

01:03:08   Like it's like, well, you know, that's very good.

01:03:11   Especially since like, people will pay more

01:03:14   for a larger television.

01:03:15   Like they understand you will pay more money

01:03:17   because it's bigger and has a bigger screen.

01:03:18   That's a thing that people will already accept.

01:03:20   Storage sizes is kind of like the thing

01:03:23   that they will differentiate on

01:03:24   that people don't really understand.

01:03:26   Like people don't even know the difference

01:03:26   between RAM and flash storage.

01:03:28   And they said, this is what we're gonna use as our dial

01:03:30   to make you pay more money.

01:03:31   - So John, if you were to get an iPhone,

01:03:33   which I'm assuming that you have no interest in still,

01:03:37   hypothetically, which model would you be getting?

01:03:40   - I have a lot of interest

01:03:41   if they don't ever update the iPod Touch again.

01:03:44   Suddenly my interest becomes very great, doesn't it?

01:03:47   Yeah, I would go for a 64, 4.7 inch iPhone 6.

01:03:52   - Wow.

01:03:54   I have to wait until they get into the store. I'm not gonna pre-order or anything like that

01:03:56   I have to wait until they get into the store. I have to try it in my hand

01:03:59   See what it's like. I really do like the rounded edges because I never liked how the five design

01:04:03   I like how this one looks and it's sort of it's in the black front sort of glamour shots that they make and

01:04:07   I like the idea of how I think it's going to feel in my hand because of the rounded edges. So I'm I

01:04:13   Like this design. I like this phone. I just don't know if it'll be too big

01:04:16   And if they do rev the iPod touch presumably it will be big anyway, so size may not be a factor because

01:04:22   you know, like I won't have a choice.

01:04:26   Like I can't keep using this old iPod touch.

01:04:28   The battery's getting a little wonky.

01:04:30   - So wait, so all three of us agree

01:04:32   that the phone that we choose would be a 64 gig,

01:04:37   well presumably different colors,

01:04:39   but 64 gig, 4.7 inch iPhone 6?

01:04:41   - No, we'd all get the same color.

01:04:43   - Black.

01:04:44   - Oh, I thought Marco you had a white one.

01:04:46   - Tim has a white one.

01:04:48   I was considering white and then I didn't get it.

01:04:50   And I actually, I like the new,

01:04:51   Like, because the black on the 5 was way too dark, but in the 5S, the new space gray color,

01:04:56   it's more like a gunmetal color, that's very nice.

01:04:59   I like that a lot.

01:05:00   Now, I love the space gray on my 5S.

01:05:04   Now, one thing I'd like to quickly talk about is, do we know—is Tiff going to upgrade,

01:05:11   and do we know what she's going to get?

01:05:13   Because I saw a lot of tweets fly by about her trying on the paper cutouts in different

01:05:18   and so on and so forth.

01:05:21   I was curious, has she concluded yet?

01:05:24   - I don't think she has.

01:05:25   We'll have to have her on at some point.

01:05:26   Maybe next week she's busy right now,

01:05:27   but maybe next week I'll have her on.

01:05:30   Or Tiff, if you're listening, please come in and tell us.

01:05:33   I would get, 'cause the problem,

01:05:36   and this is a problem that especially a lot of women

01:05:38   are gonna have, if you've been keeping your phone

01:05:40   in your pocket, because women's clothing usually,

01:05:43   if it has pockets at all, which is not always given,

01:05:46   if it has pockets at all, usually they're smaller.

01:05:48   So Tiff always keeps the pockets,

01:05:50   Tiff always keeps her phone in her jeans.

01:05:52   And the front pocket is almost never big enough.

01:05:54   So usually just keeps it in the back pocket.

01:05:57   And it's like, we'll have to have her tell you all

01:06:00   about this, but basically it really is not a good fit.

01:06:05   The 5.5 doesn't even come close to fitting.

01:06:07   And even the 4.7 no longer fits.

01:06:10   Like it either, it will either stick out visibly at the top

01:06:14   or like it, or you gotta like put it in like only one pocket

01:06:18   in such a way that it makes a giant long rectangle

01:06:21   put longways, it's weird.

01:06:23   So I have a feeling this is gonna be an issue,

01:06:27   especially for women.

01:06:28   I think we're gonna have to see how the market shakes out.

01:06:32   We're gonna have to see how these sell,

01:06:34   and Apple's gonna have to see.

01:06:35   I'm sure they're gonna be looking at their stores

01:06:37   to see how many people who would have otherwise bought

01:06:41   the bigger one go with the iPhone 5S instead

01:06:44   because it's smaller.

01:06:46   You know I hope they're watching that I'm sure they will because I'm guessing there's gonna be a lot of people who actually prefer the smaller size

01:06:54   especially women

01:06:56   You mean you mean like the smaller is in the 5s size or the 4 point mmm

01:07:00   Yeah, I think they're gonna sell a ton of the 4.7 inch sixes

01:07:04   Like that will be the best-selling model kind of like last gen the the 5s was the best-selling modern way over the 5c

01:07:11   And people seem surprised by that my prediction for for this set of models is that the?

01:07:16   the 4.7 and 6 will be the best selling model.

01:07:20   - Really quickly, a couple more thoughts on the iPhone Plus.

01:07:23   Firstly, do you remember the title

01:07:25   of the very, very, very first episode of ATP?

01:07:28   - Did we call it iPhone Plus?

01:07:29   - We sure did.

01:07:30   - Yeah, it was the iPhone math, remember?

01:07:32   - That's right. (laughs)

01:07:34   - And what we said, there was a likely mistranslation

01:07:36   of iPhone Plus.

01:07:37   Even the name leaked on this thing.

01:07:38   I can't keep secrets anymore.

01:07:40   (both laughing)

01:07:42   - That was like two years ago.

01:07:43   - I am pretty proud of us for that.

01:07:45   This was February 7th of 2013.

01:07:48   - But it's not the iPhone Plus, it's the iPhone 6 Plus.

01:07:50   It's a bit technical.

01:07:51   - Oh, whatever. - We didn't quite get it.

01:07:53   Anyway. - Anyway.

01:07:54   - Names are names.

01:07:56   - And then what do you guys think about,

01:07:58   and I'm gonna start with Marco,

01:07:59   when you go to landscape on the iPhone 6 Plus,

01:08:04   you get a split view controller

01:08:06   if the app that you're using supports that.

01:08:09   How does that make you feel to have an iPad

01:08:12   that isn't an iPad?

01:08:14   - I think it's smart.

01:08:15   I mean, the iPhone, first of all,

01:08:18   designing an app for iPhone landscape views

01:08:21   has always been challenging,

01:08:22   especially if you have to support text input,

01:08:24   because the iPhone landscape view with the keyboard up,

01:08:27   you basically have no space.

01:08:28   And so, it's always been tricky to design that.

01:08:33   The iPhone 6 Plus has so much space in both dimensions,

01:08:37   but especially in that height dimension,

01:08:39   it has so much space that if you saw

01:08:42   any other normal interface scaled to that

01:08:45   without the split view style.

01:08:47   It's gonna look ridiculously weirdly wide and short.

01:08:50   And so I think what that's doing is just like,

01:08:54   it isn't necessarily like,

01:08:55   oh, we're gonna bring the iPad to this.

01:08:57   I think it's more like we have to solve

01:08:59   this really weird interface situation here.

01:09:02   What tools do we have that we can do that with?

01:09:04   And so that's what I think they're doing there with that.

01:09:07   First of all, it is a differentiator.

01:09:11   it is a way to get people to buy the bigger one,

01:09:12   to say like, look, the apps are a little bit better

01:09:14   in these ways, you know, so that helps.

01:09:17   But I think ultimately it's just about like,

01:09:18   how do we make apps not look weird on this?

01:09:21   - Yeah, all those APIs in WWDC talking about

01:09:24   the adaptive sizing stream, we all knew,

01:09:25   I mean again, talk about Apple leaked this itself

01:09:28   essentially, like we all knew it was coming,

01:09:29   they told us in a million sessions that we're gonna be,

01:09:32   you know, they had, if you just watch those,

01:09:34   if they're free to watch, watch those WWDC sessions,

01:09:37   it's obvious what they're talking about,

01:09:38   and no one was surprised that,

01:09:41   "Oh, hey, look, when you rotated a different thing,

01:09:43   it's suddenly this panel."

01:09:44   Like, they told you how to do that.

01:09:46   And he was like, "This seems strange.

01:09:48   When would this come in handy?"

01:09:49   Hmm, you know, it was,

01:09:50   they were in an awkward situation

01:09:52   where they had to tell developers

01:09:53   how to adjust their layouts

01:09:55   or what we knew were going to be differently sized phones.

01:09:57   And one of the features was, you know,

01:09:59   some elements might not even appear

01:10:00   if the width is compact

01:10:02   or whatever the size class thing is, right?

01:10:03   So, timing-wise, it must've been weird for them to do that,

01:10:07   But every developer knew it was coming.

01:10:09   And I think users don't care about that stuff

01:10:14   as much as we think they do in terms of what it requires.

01:10:16   So maybe it was like, oh, if you get the big phone,

01:10:19   you get this better stuff.

01:10:19   And they don't even know if it's the same app,

01:10:21   as far as they're concerned.

01:10:22   Or they might think, like Casey just kind of said,

01:10:23   like, oh, this is an iPad.

01:10:25   No, it's not an iPad app.

01:10:26   They don't need to know anything about adaptive layouts.

01:10:28   They don't need to know anything about size classes.

01:10:29   They just know you buy this product,

01:10:31   your experience is different.

01:10:32   Especially with the wide keyboard,

01:10:34   with the weird larger keys on the side for doing doodles

01:10:37   and the larger emoji key

01:10:39   and whatever other things they had there.

01:10:42   The fact that those buttons are there

01:10:43   is gonna be a selling point.

01:10:44   Like, oh, well this one has the keyboard

01:10:45   with the little buttons.

01:10:47   I don't know, I feel like the people

01:10:48   who want this big phone already know they want it

01:10:50   and this is all just gonna be icing for them.

01:10:52   And Apple is wise to continue to evolve its UI toolkit,

01:10:57   for lack of a better word,

01:10:59   to handle differently sized screens.

01:11:01   They crept on it bit by bit

01:11:03   and now they're essentially entering a world where we can make flat rectangular screens

01:11:07   with rounded corners of any size and your app should run on them.

01:11:11   The only thing left is the weird gap between iPad and iPhone apps.

01:11:17   And I wonder if eventually they'll get to the point, because if you look at their products

01:11:20   now if you line them up, it's a series of little rectangles with screens on them that

01:11:23   scale nicely from really small to really big.

01:11:26   It's a pretty smooth stair step.

01:11:27   And yet you have to draw this red line.

01:11:29   well, this is an iPad app, and these are iPhone apps.

01:11:32   And that red line will start to get thinner

01:11:34   over the next few years, because eventually it'll be like, look,

01:11:37   you're just making iOS apps, and they adapt themselves

01:11:40   to whatever size screen they're on,

01:11:42   and there's no artificial distinction between an iPad

01:11:44   and an iPhone app anymore.

01:11:45   We're not there yet, but check back in three years.

01:11:49   Yeah, and I think the message to W3C

01:11:52   couldn't have been more clear on that front, too.

01:11:55   Your apps should stop caring about whether they're

01:11:58   running on an iPad or an iPhone.

01:12:00   And you should instead just read these collections

01:12:03   of traits to know, oh, well, this is a small, horizontal,

01:12:07   but big vertical screen, or something like that.

01:12:09   And to basically bring responsive design to apps.

01:12:14   And Apple has been absolutely clear,

01:12:18   that is the way to go now and in the future.

01:12:21   And the implication, of course, is

01:12:23   because we're going to have this big variety of hardware.

01:12:25   And now we've seen the beginning half of that.

01:12:28   I think we're going to continue to see that when

01:12:30   the new iPads are announced.

01:12:31   And if that resizable app thing becomes a part of the iPad OS,

01:12:37   it'll use the same kind of system.

01:12:38   And that's just as important then.

01:12:39   Yeah, the multitasking thing where you split the screen

01:12:42   and have one thing on one side.

01:12:43   Yeah, if that ever ships, it's going

01:12:45   to be an even bigger draw for this sort of thing.

01:12:47   And I think for developers, the message

01:12:50   could not be more clear.

01:12:51   Build universal apps and use this kind of responsive design.

01:12:55   they couldn't be more clear about that.

01:12:57   And if your business model depends on having separate

01:12:59   iPhone and iPad apps, you should probably figure out

01:13:01   a way around that really soon.

01:13:03   - Yeah, even now, just the iPhone 6 Plus

01:13:08   next to an iPad mini, try explaining to a regular person

01:13:10   that, well, this is an iPad app and it only works

01:13:13   on this rectangle, and it won't work at all

01:13:14   in that rectangle.

01:13:15   It'd be like, what?

01:13:16   These are practically the same thing.

01:13:18   It's like, oh, no, that's an iPad and this is an iPhone.

01:13:19   They'd be like, because it makes phone calls,

01:13:22   it can't run, I don't understand.

01:13:24   Yeah, that's you know, the direction is clear that that confusion will be cleared up

01:13:28   Maybe clean clear up sooner than we think for all we know the new ipads come out and apple says oh and by the way

01:13:33   Uh, you can't ever upload an ipad only app anymore. All your apps have to be that I think it's still a ways off

01:13:39   But like apple could do that if they were in a hurry. I don't think they're in a hurry, but

01:13:42   It's at this point

01:13:44   It's silly with that with the iphone 6 plus and the ipad mini both in apple's line

01:13:47   The division between them makes no sense. Yeah

01:13:52   Alright, let's make some money and then talk about some money.

01:13:56   We are also sponsored this week by our friends at Squarespace, the all-in-one platform that

01:14:00   makes it fast and easy to create your own professional website, portfolio, and online

01:14:05   store.

01:14:06   For a free trial and 10% off, visit squarespace.com and enter offer code ATP at checkout.

01:14:11   A better web starts with your website.

01:14:14   Squarespace is simple and easy to use.

01:14:17   They have beautiful designs for you to start with and you can customize them to your heart's

01:14:20   content in their nice graphical interface. It's drag and drop, you can edit things so

01:14:24   easily. If you really want to though, you can even dive in and inject your own HTML,

01:14:28   CSS, and JavaScript code. So you can do crazy custom things if you want to, but usually

01:14:33   most of what you have to do, they have a nice GUI for it, nice and drag and drop, and you

01:14:36   don't really have to know coding. They have 24/7 support through live chat and email.

01:14:42   They have support people in New York City and Dublin, Ireland, and they're always adding

01:14:46   Squarespace plans start at just $8 a month,

01:14:49   and that includes a free domain name

01:14:50   if you sign up for a whole year up front.

01:14:53   And they even have this cool new thing.

01:14:55   So they've been adding so many things

01:14:57   in the last few months, it's crazy.

01:14:58   They have Squarespace logo,

01:14:59   where you can design your own logo for them.

01:15:01   And the big thing is they have Squarespace commerce,

01:15:03   where you can have a whole online store.

01:15:06   It integrates with Stripe for payment processing.

01:15:08   You can sell digital or physical goods.

01:15:10   And all of that comes at no additional charge.

01:15:13   It just comes with all their plans.

01:15:15   So it's amazing.

01:15:16   And all their designs are all responsive.

01:15:19   I told the story in the last couple sponsorships

01:15:21   about how I made a site for this nonprofit group

01:15:24   and it saved them thousands of dollars

01:15:27   over their previous solution.

01:15:28   And now they can edit things whenever they want to with it.

01:15:32   And it took me like an hour to do.

01:15:33   It was so easy.

01:15:34   It took me no effort.

01:15:36   And I set them up and they could have done it themselves,

01:15:37   really, they just didn't know that at the time.

01:15:39   But it was crazy.

01:15:41   Anyway, you can start a free trial today

01:15:43   with no credit card required

01:15:44   and start building your website right now.

01:15:47   When you do decide to sign up for Squarespace,

01:15:48   make sure you go to squarespace.com

01:15:50   and use offer code ATP to get 10% off your first purchase

01:15:54   and to show your support for our show.

01:15:56   We thank you very much, thank you Squarespace

01:15:58   for supporting our show.

01:15:59   A better web starts with your website.

01:16:02   - So there's a way to pay for things with your phone.

01:16:10   Yeah, this is gonna be really interesting, I think.

01:16:13   Like this is, so, you know, first of all,

01:16:17   yes, we all know that NFC is not new,

01:16:20   that Apple is not the first one to do this.

01:16:22   They won't be the last ones to do this.

01:16:24   We know Android was there first.

01:16:26   We know probably things were there before, Android even.

01:16:28   We know NFC is very popular in some parts of the world.

01:16:31   We know the US payment system is horrible and outdated.

01:16:34   And yes, we still even use checks sometimes,

01:16:37   which is horrendous.

01:16:38   So all that aside, I think this is a great move.

01:16:43   I hope it gets a lot of adoption.

01:16:46   And I think if it does, I think this might actually

01:16:50   be more important than the watch long term for Apple.

01:16:53   I think they're gonna end up making some money from it,

01:16:57   no question, you know, because they're getting a surcharge

01:17:00   off of each transaction.

01:17:01   But it's not very much money based on most of the reports

01:17:03   we've seen, it's a very, very small surcharge.

01:17:06   they make it up in volume, or want to anyway.

01:17:08   - And they, yeah, and there will be,

01:17:10   if this actually works, there will be a lot of volumes.

01:17:13   - Well, so that's the question,

01:17:14   what makes anyone think this has any more chance of working

01:17:17   and becoming widespread than any of the past efforts,

01:17:19   or Passbook for that matter?

01:17:21   - Well, I think the biggest reason,

01:17:24   first of all, you know, Passbook was a tough sell,

01:17:26   because Passbook didn't really offer

01:17:29   either side massive benefits.

01:17:31   It's like, it wasn't that easier, that much easier,

01:17:35   It didn't, like it was a pain to implement slightly,

01:17:39   'cause you had to do something instead of nothing.

01:17:41   So you had to do special support to implement it

01:17:43   on the service side.

01:17:45   And then on the usual side, there's this weird app

01:17:47   that they go in and it kinda, you gotta find the link

01:17:51   somewhere in your confirmation email that says

01:17:52   download to Passbook if they even had that,

01:17:54   which they usually didn't.

01:17:55   And I feel like the benefits there were not big enough

01:17:59   for all the work on both sides to be worth it

01:18:02   for most people.

01:18:03   Whereas for this, I feel like if this actually works

01:18:07   the way it's advertised, and granted,

01:18:09   the video was hilarious in how,

01:18:11   like the doing it wrong side of the video, how that was--

01:18:14   - So bad, so bad. - It was comical.

01:18:17   - No, it was not comical, it was embarrassing how bad it was.

01:18:21   - I like when they ask for, she asks for ID

01:18:23   and the swipe doesn't work on the first time,

01:18:24   two things that almost never happen.

01:18:26   - It was so uncomfortable.

01:18:29   - That was an example of Apple,

01:18:30   Like what you want is it Apple to be fair?

01:18:33   Like when Steve Jobs put up the picture

01:18:35   of what phones look like with all the different keyboards,

01:18:37   that was fair.

01:18:38   Those were good publicity shots

01:18:40   of those actual popular phones.

01:18:41   It was not finding the ugliest phones in the world

01:18:43   and putting them up to show how nice yours looks next to it.

01:18:45   It was like, these are the popular phones now.

01:18:48   And then we're gonna show you the iPhone

01:18:49   and it's different than them.

01:18:50   This was not a fair comparison.

01:18:52   This was like, this does not accurately represent

01:18:55   the inconvenience of using your credit card in America.

01:18:58   - Right, and that's the thing

01:19:00   is that this is one of those parts of the keynote

01:19:03   where I was just sitting there

01:19:04   and I wanted to crawl into a hole

01:19:06   because it was so ridiculous.

01:19:08   I was like kind of embarrassed just watching it.

01:19:11   And I'm probably being a bit dramatic,

01:19:13   but the thing of it is is that Apple keynotes or events,

01:19:16   whatever we're calling this,

01:19:17   are usually so spot on and so good.

01:19:21   And this was just awkward.

01:19:25   I don't know.

01:19:25   Most of it was great,

01:19:26   but this part was just really awkward.

01:19:28   So for the success rate of this thing over Passbook,

01:19:31   I ask that mostly just to throw that out there.

01:19:34   I think this will be more successful than Passbook.

01:19:37   And I think the main reason is,

01:19:39   this is all again, totally US centric.

01:19:41   And like Marco said, we all know about chip cards.

01:19:43   We all know how backwards we are.

01:19:44   Yes, yes, yes, we live in America.

01:19:46   We care about our backwardness getting fixed,

01:19:48   not how awesome it is in your amazing country.

01:19:50   Anyway.

01:19:51   (laughing)

01:19:53   So if we don't speak your language,

01:19:54   we'd move there if we did.

01:19:55   Anyway.

01:19:56   (laughing)

01:19:57   The reason this is gonna work is because of the massive concentration of power in the

01:20:06   US payment industry to these few big banks and few big credit card companies, most of

01:20:11   which Apple seems to have cut a deal with.

01:20:13   So right there, you've got just huge...

01:20:15   It's kind of like when Apple did a deal for iTunes, they just got whatever is the big

01:20:18   five record labels or whatever they were.

01:20:20   That's all they needed to do deals with because they covered most of the music people cared

01:20:25   about.

01:20:26   Apple is doing deals with MasterCard, Visa,

01:20:29   Bank of America.

01:20:30   They're just covering a huge portion of the entire market

01:20:33   just by doing deals with these gigantic companies that

01:20:36   have what probably should be illegal levels of power

01:20:40   and concentration of wealth.

01:20:42   And anyway, that makes it--

01:20:43   On the retail side, too, there's a similar--

01:20:46   the US is so much based on the big chain stores

01:20:50   that all you need are a handful of the big chains

01:20:52   to have a massive footprint of the transactions that

01:20:55   happen in the US every day, and then you can start getting

01:20:58   more support from the smaller people just because,

01:21:00   well, we have all these people using this,

01:21:02   you'll benefit from this, blah, blah, blah, you know?

01:21:03   - Yeah, and that's what they need to make it work,

01:21:05   is you need to like, it's not the thing in the phone,

01:21:08   it's not the software, it's not NFC,

01:21:10   what it is is that stupid ugly reader thing.

01:21:12   That is the most important part of this product

01:21:14   as a solution for people, is that stupid ugly reader thing.

01:21:17   That stupid little NFC reader and the way it's hooked up,

01:21:21   and that has to be in millions and millions of places.

01:21:25   That is the hard part of this project.

01:21:27   Like you said, people putting NFC in phones forever.

01:21:29   Like it's so easy to do all those other parts.

01:21:31   The hard part is to cut the deal with all the people.

01:21:33   So they say, use our payment thingy,

01:21:35   accept our payment tokens,

01:21:38   put these things in all of your stores.

01:21:41   That is the hard part.

01:21:42   That's the biggest, kind of like the Amazon level

01:21:45   type of thing where they're like,

01:21:46   or even Google, like we're gonna scan every book

01:21:48   in the world, and we're gonna make self-driving cars

01:21:49   or whatever.

01:21:50   This is one of the first things that I've seen

01:21:51   Apple sort of dip its toe into of saying,

01:21:54   we're going to try to do this big thing.

01:21:56   'Cause it doesn't work unless those little scanners

01:21:58   are all over the place hooked up to Apple service.

01:22:00   And so them cutting the deal

01:22:02   with the big credit card companies

01:22:03   so that you'll be able to make something

01:22:05   that you can pay with and it will connect

01:22:07   to your bank or your credit card or whatever.

01:22:08   That's one half.

01:22:09   But then the other half is getting these little scanners

01:22:12   in a bunch of stores hooked up to those things.

01:22:15   And I think the amount of stuff

01:22:16   that they've announced in this deal

01:22:20   is probably just barely enough.

01:22:22   maybe, maybe barely enough to get them over the hump.

01:22:25   'Cause you need some kind of critical mass

01:22:26   if this doesn't want to become like Passbook.

01:22:28   Even though Passbook's like,

01:22:29   "Oh, didn't they get all the airlines?"

01:22:30   People don't fly every day,

01:22:32   and even if they do, the airlines were kind of spotty

01:22:34   in the beginning about whether that was there,

01:22:36   and people weren't, you know, like,

01:22:37   is this really, you really need to get some critical mass

01:22:40   before, until this, you know,

01:22:42   for this to become something that is more than just

01:22:45   a curiosity that a bunch of rich people do in San Francisco

01:22:48   when they go to Whole Foods, you know?

01:22:50   - Right, well, and the timing of this is actually

01:22:52   amazingly good because the US,

01:22:56   there's finally now a big movement to move to chip and pin

01:22:59   ever since what I believe was started out

01:23:01   as the target credit card hack thing.

01:23:03   I apologize to whoever was talking about this

01:23:08   and I overheard it on a podcast and I forgot who it was,

01:23:10   but basically in the last couple years

01:23:12   there have been so many massive scale credit card hacks

01:23:15   in the US, especially the big target one,

01:23:17   that it's finally getting so expensive

01:23:20   for the credit card processors to deal with

01:23:22   all the resulting fraud and everything,

01:23:23   that they're now finally pushing the US

01:23:26   to adopt chip and PIN.

01:23:27   - Well, the fraud rate has been really low

01:23:29   and it has gone up slightly with these hacks.

01:23:32   But all it takes is for the fraud rate to go up slightly

01:23:34   for these business credit card companies

01:23:36   live and die based on their terrible fees

01:23:38   that they charge you, their crazy interest rates,

01:23:42   but also the fraud rates.

01:23:44   And so the fraud rate goes up 1%,

01:23:46   that is enough for them to say,

01:23:47   "All right, finally, we have to get rid of this

01:23:48   "through magnetic stripe stuff."

01:23:49   Like there is a big turnover in that type of like that's the reason they drag their feet like everything we have now is fine

01:23:55   Why would we invest in changing it?

01:23:57   All you need is the fraud rate to take up like a percent or two and suddenly it becomes economically feasible to go to something

01:24:03   better and it's I suppose there's a competition between the

01:24:06   Little chip things they have in the rest of the civilized world and something like this NFC thing

01:24:11   exactly, and and that's why I think like because this shift is finally happening in the US and because you know you what you said earlier

01:24:19   about the concentration of power in the US

01:24:20   being such that the US is a fairly straightforward market

01:24:24   to dominate if you can get a handful of people on board.

01:24:27   That's why I think this has a very good chance of succeeding

01:24:31   because all those credit card terminals all over the place

01:24:34   are gonna have to get upgraded in the next few years anyway.

01:24:36   And so they're probably gonna get upgraded

01:24:38   to something that supports NFC

01:24:39   if NFC is widely out there, which now it will be.

01:24:42   - So do you think it'll be socially awkward to do this,

01:24:46   to be early on in the Apple Pay adoption?

01:24:50   - No, I don't think so at all.

01:24:53   Because I mean, think of,

01:24:54   the convenience just trumps everything.

01:24:56   Like, do you remember when the little kiosks

01:24:59   where you had to swipe your own card first came out?

01:25:01   - Oh yeah, yeah. - Right?

01:25:03   And it was a change and everyone just got used to it

01:25:05   and that was it.

01:25:06   Do you have one of those little dongly things

01:25:07   that you use at the gas station

01:25:08   so you don't have to swipe your card?

01:25:10   - No, no.

01:25:11   - I have one of those.

01:25:12   I've had one of those for what, 10, 15 years?

01:25:14   They're awesome.

01:25:15   you get one, you never go back to the old way.

01:25:18   Like, and this is the equivalent of that.

01:25:19   As soon as people can like rub some part of their purse

01:25:22   or whatever up against the thing and pay for things.

01:25:24   - Oh my goodness.

01:25:25   - Yeah, you're gonna rub your purse against the gas pump?

01:25:27   Yeah, okay.

01:25:28   - You know what I mean?

01:25:29   Like the convenience of just like the,

01:25:32   like it is so much easier than the,

01:25:34   and even though the video was ridiculous,

01:25:36   like, oh, it's so hard to get cards out of a wall.

01:25:38   I just really expected eggshells to crack

01:25:39   on top of the person's hair when she was doing that.

01:25:41   Like, like from the infomercials.

01:25:43   Spill the person onto the floor. Yeah, just all things are everywhere anyway as silly as that is this is kind of like the whole

01:25:50   I watch thing we talked about before

01:25:52   Taking away the the need to rummage through your purse to pull out the card to hand it to the person to hand it to

01:25:58   Back they didn't show the part of signing which some places still make you do do the stupid signature on the thing

01:26:02   That's decreased a lot lately without requiring sign, but like that little dance is not that inconvenient

01:26:09   But if you can cut most of it out it is addicting to be able to do that. It is nice

01:26:14   Why would you ever like it's like well, okay, that wasn't a problem. I had no problem doing that, but this is slightly more convenient

01:26:21   What is the reason you would ever go back to the other way and this actually has it as they pointed out many times like

01:26:26   You know this has advantages over the old way and that you don't have to give your credit card number to anybody

01:26:30   They don't have to know anything about you or your name like using the tokens is more secure reveals less information

01:26:36   to Apple anyway, the credit card company still knows what you bought and where and when but you know

01:26:39   It's not Apple's not helping with that, but they're not it is a potentially more secure

01:26:46   Which is why everybody likes it reduce fraud and everything

01:26:48   Service that is more convenient to you and it's not that it's going to be such a life-changing thing

01:26:52   It's just to give you once once that is an option for you

01:26:54   You will never like you will never go to one of the stores that has that option and say you know what I want to

01:27:00   Dig my credit card out of my wallet instead. You just won't what's the point?

01:27:02   There's no upside and so it will just completely switch over to doing it the more convenient way

01:27:06   If they can get these things in enough places, it will hopefully not be a novelty

01:27:10   But more like be like the defaults for the the three stores that you you know

01:27:15   Where I shop for my groceries where I go for my you know

01:27:18   Home supplies or whatever if if the three or four stories you frequent all have this it will just become the way you pay for

01:27:23   things

01:27:24   That I think it's going to be a interesting challenge for them to get in enough locations fast enough for this not to be some weird

01:27:32   again, a curiosity that is only in a few places.

01:27:36   - And also, think about the lock-in effects they have

01:27:39   once this is everywhere.

01:27:41   This is not gonna force everyone to buy iPhones,

01:27:44   but it will make it harder to ever move away from an iPhone.

01:27:46   It's gonna be like one more thing that,

01:27:50   if you have an iPhone and you're thinking about

01:27:51   switching to some new Android hotness or whatever,

01:27:54   you'll have to think about, oh,

01:27:55   then I won't be able to use this in the exact same way.

01:27:57   And even if the other thing supports NFC,

01:27:59   it'd be like, well, it might be different,

01:28:01   might not work as well, you know.

01:28:02   - I wonder what kind of lock-in they're really getting,

01:28:05   'cause like the hardware is capable of doing anything.

01:28:07   So if Android does some sort of thing

01:28:09   and Google does stuff with payment processor,

01:28:10   like there's no reason that other companies

01:28:12   couldn't strike the same deals.

01:28:13   And presumably if the hardware is there,

01:28:16   it is a business and software decision.

01:28:19   Like once the readers are everywhere,

01:28:21   I don't think Apple has any particular lock-in

01:28:24   to those readers, 'cause those readers could be repurposed

01:28:26   to read payments from Android phones just as easily.

01:28:29   So it's more of a can other companies do the deals

01:28:33   with all of the credit card companies and banks

01:28:36   and retailers in the same way that Apple has done.

01:28:39   - Oh yeah, I'm not saying they can't,

01:28:40   but I'm saying like you, not you,

01:28:42   but most people as users might consider that like,

01:28:45   oh, I've gotten used to waving my iPhone in front of this

01:28:48   and using Touch ID to do this.

01:28:50   If I move to Android phone, it might not work that well,

01:28:52   or it might be different, or it might not work at all,

01:28:54   depending on the setup and everything.

01:28:57   I know, of course, these are standard NFC things,

01:28:59   and I know that other things will work with it,

01:29:02   but there will be that kind of psychological lock-in effect.

01:29:05   That's one more thing about my life

01:29:07   that I will have to change,

01:29:09   and possibly lose, if I switch.

01:29:12   And the watch, we'll get to the watch,

01:29:14   but the watch is exactly the same.

01:29:16   It has exactly the same effect,

01:29:18   which is like, this is one more thing

01:29:20   that I'm gonna have to change if I switch away from this.

01:29:24   - As someone pointed in the chat rooms,

01:29:26   The touch ID is a factor in this because it gives Apple the rate that you get if the credit

01:29:32   card is present at the transaction.

01:29:35   You have a lower surcharge than if you're just entering the number.

01:29:40   These are all weird details, investages of the credit card processing industry, but basically

01:29:44   Apple can make better deals because it was able to convince the credit card companies

01:29:49   that touch ID is a sufficiently secure thing that they should get the same rate that someone

01:29:53   gets if they physically have the card there with them.

01:29:55   So you won't need to have your credit card with you, but Apple will pay the smaller surcharge.

01:29:58   And like, basically, you know, Apple is doing what it does best, making deals with the big

01:30:02   companies, making deals that are as favorable as possible to it, that also make their partners

01:30:07   happy and using technology to do that.

01:30:09   Because Apple Pay only works from devices that have Touch ID or devices that require

01:30:14   a device that has Touch ID, like the watch.

01:30:17   And Android will find a much harder time doing that because even if they come out with something

01:30:21   like Touch ID, it will be forever or possibly never

01:30:24   that it is everywhere on every Android device.

01:30:26   Like it's so much harder to make penetration

01:30:28   versus like this Apple's already got,

01:30:29   what are they, was it 200 million?

01:30:31   I think, I don't know if they were talking about

01:30:32   the fives, the stuff that worked at the watch already.

01:30:34   - Yeah, 200 million was the number of iPhone five

01:30:37   and above owners.

01:30:38   - So the five S's and the six is very soon,

01:30:42   a huge number of iOS devices will have Touch ID.

01:30:45   Touch ID is a big strategic advantage to Apple

01:30:47   when it comes to stuff like this,

01:30:49   because it is another factor in the authentication soup

01:30:51   and it's helping Apple make better deals

01:30:53   and I think it will actually help people

01:30:55   feel slightly better about doing this transaction.

01:30:59   Like that it's not just, oh, if you steal my phone,

01:31:02   you can buy things.

01:31:03   You can unless you have their thumbprint or whatever.

01:31:04   And I've just from repeatedly unlocking my wife's phone

01:31:08   with Touch ID and repeatedly redoing the stupid Touch ID

01:31:11   every time I put a new build of iOS 8 on it,

01:31:13   which kind of annoys me.

01:31:15   I'm a big fan of Touch ID.

01:31:16   I have great success rates.

01:31:17   I think it is.

01:31:18   We wondered when it first came out,

01:31:19   will this be good enough to be,

01:31:21   like will it be like Siri where it's like,

01:31:23   well you play with it for a while,

01:31:24   but then you realize the success rate is too low

01:31:25   for you to really trust it for anything.

01:31:27   Touch ID I feel like has totally crossed that bar.

01:31:29   I trust it for the intended purpose.

01:31:31   It works.

01:31:32   If it ever misses, I try it.

01:31:33   Like, it's convenience trumps the whatever small percentage

01:31:37   of failure rate that I get on it.

01:31:38   Just don't try to use it when you come out of the shower

01:31:40   'cause your skin is all floppy and it doesn't work.

01:31:42   (laughing)

01:31:43   - Now before we move on, somebody did find TIFF,

01:31:46   And in fact, it was Drunk Casey, right?

01:31:49   Yeah, so Drunk Casey alerted Tiff to our call earlier

01:31:52   to see if she could come in and she saw it

01:31:54   and she now is in.

01:31:55   And if we are still interested in hearing

01:31:58   one woman's opinion on the iPhone's sizes,

01:32:03   you wanna put her on?

01:32:05   - Yeah, it's fine.

01:32:06   - All right.

01:32:07   - Hey guys, what's up?

01:32:08   - Hi.

01:32:09   So I'd asked earlier what your conclusion was

01:32:15   about which phone you're going to potentially get

01:32:18   because you used trying the phone on as a convenient excuse

01:32:22   to show the internet your butt.

01:32:24   And so I was curious if you reached a conclusion.

01:32:29   - Well, I did enjoy showing the internet my butt.

01:32:33   I asked Marco if it would be okay.

01:32:36   And he's like, "I don't own your butt."

01:32:37   - Yeah, exactly.

01:32:38   I was just gonna say the same thing.

01:32:39   Why are you not asking permission?

01:32:41   It's your butt, you do what you want with it.

01:32:42   - I would ask him to ask me permission

01:32:44   if he wanted to show the internet his butt.

01:32:46   - He doesn't.

01:32:47   - You know, it's a give and take kind of thing.

01:32:48   (laughing)

01:32:50   But no, I think my conclusion is that I might stick

01:32:53   with the phone I have because--

01:32:55   - What?

01:32:56   Like a crazy person. - I know.

01:32:57   - You're gonna use the same iPhone for two years?

01:33:00   - I know, like an animal.

01:33:01   Like--

01:33:02   (laughing)

01:33:04   I don't know because it's just gonna be so big.

01:33:06   But I mean, I thought that this one,

01:33:09   I was appalled by how light it felt at first, you know,

01:33:12   and you got the new one, the most recent new one.

01:33:13   what is this the five something was this five s Yeah, you're probably appalled by the lightness

01:33:18   when you get the five because that's when it got taller and it was also very light compared

01:33:21   to the four s Yeah, like anytime it changes. I'm like, this is the worst and then you know,

01:33:26   when the new IO iOS Yeah, I'm saying the right things, right? Yeah, when that came on and

01:33:30   it all looked like all candy pop and I'm like, this is terrible to everything's ruined and

01:33:35   so I hated everything and then I like, you know, had it for two weeks and I looked at

01:33:39   at my old phone, I'm like, this phone is so old. Why did I ever want that old phone? It's

01:33:45   the worst. So I have a little bit of that still in my mind that I might, you know, look

01:33:51   at it, look back and be like, Oh, that little phone was so old. You know, once I get the

01:33:55   bigger one being bigger, I mean like the 4.7 so the five five is in a no fly zone is out

01:34:01   of the question out of the question. I can't my hand. I mean, you can't like scroll all

01:34:07   the way I can't even reach the other side of the phone. I'm holding the paper right

01:34:10   now looking at it my little lady thumb and I'll drop it. Marco's little man throat

01:34:15   can't reach the home button.

01:34:16   Well, everything is weensy on Marco that's to be expected. He's dainty. Oh, man, I don't

01:34:24   even I was about to ask you something that would totally derail. Okay, so the theory

01:34:28   is sitting here now on a Wednesday night before the pre order, you are going to ask Marco

01:34:34   to pre-order nothing to get you nothing and then if Marco ends up coming back with the

01:34:41   four seven, what do you think the chances are that you're going to look at it and say,

01:34:44   "Holy crap, I need that."

01:34:48   Probably a 70% chance that I'll say that I need that because I can't help it. I like

01:34:52   having the new stuff. But I don't know. I just like my little, I like being able to

01:34:58   just, it's in my pocket and it's small and like I discussed on Twitter and showed everyone

01:35:03   on Twitter that my pockets are small and it doesn't. I mean, my phone currently barely

01:35:07   fits in there. Do you do really keep your iPhone in your back pocket and then sit down

01:35:11   with it? I really do. And you sit down and share a hard chairs with the iPhone in your

01:35:15   back pocket? Well, it depends on the surface is from sitting down on the soft chair it

01:35:18   stays in if it's a hard chair comes out. Weird. I evaluate or you know, depending on the situation.

01:35:24   That sounds like way too much work. I know it is. If I'm at the park, it usually comes

01:35:28   out and into my front pocket because I'm like up and down with the you know, with our son.

01:35:31   So it's in and out.

01:35:34   Plus the sand, you know, usually have it out.

01:35:37   - Fair enough.

01:35:38   And since you're here and I presume

01:35:39   you're about to be banished,

01:35:41   immediate thoughts on whether or not

01:35:43   you would desire an Apple Watch?

01:35:45   I almost did it too.

01:35:46   - I like wearing jewelry too much

01:35:48   to kind of mess that all up.

01:35:50   I think my accessories, I decide to choose what I'm wearing.

01:35:53   You know, that's just the type of girl that I am.

01:35:55   I never was at watch wear,

01:35:57   so I don't think I would get into it.

01:36:00   Let's see previous comments about Marco getting something new and shiny.

01:36:03   Yeah, but I mean, come on.

01:36:05   If I had if I got the big phone and I can't Oh, he's putting it on my wrist.

01:36:08   Is that the little one?

01:36:09   Little one?

01:36:10   Oh, that looks kind of nice.

01:36:13   That one's too big.

01:36:14   Yeah.

01:36:15   That may I might be changing my mind.

01:36:17   The gold one looks nice.

01:36:18   Marco, we should do that one.

01:36:19   What do you think?

01:36:20   It's pretty thick.

01:36:21   Yeah.

01:36:22   I don't know.

01:36:23   Well, if I got the big phone, then the big phone might end up living in my purse.

01:36:28   And I could take it out when, you know, our son is sleeping and I could do Twitter on

01:36:32   it.

01:36:33   But if I need notifications, it could be right on my wrist.

01:36:34   So that's convenient.

01:36:35   And you could send Marco your heartbeat.

01:36:37   Exactly.

01:36:38   And, you know, we could draw a little doodles that are important.

01:36:42   All right.

01:36:43   Before I lose all capacity to be an adult.

01:36:46   So we're saying no fly zone for the five five tentative.

01:36:49   Yes.

01:36:50   On the four seven and tentative.

01:36:52   Yes.

01:36:53   On the Apple watch.

01:36:54   Yeah.

01:36:55   Yeah.

01:36:56   I might need to go to the watch for notifications for you know, like little text messages stuff

01:37:00   So I know when to take my phone out of the purse

01:37:02   Plus you'd buy like all the bands so you could have a choice each day

01:37:05   Oh, yeah

01:37:06   That's what I'd have to do if I were to get the watch because it needs to match

01:37:09   But then you can only you had then I have to get two faces because one's gold and one silver so

01:37:14   Depends that have faces. That's two watches. Yeah, feel free to get to watch some people wear both at once. Yeah, exactly

01:37:20   Marco's over there. He's rubbing his eyes and like holding his head. He's like, oh god

01:37:25   Why wouldn't you have a day watching a night watch - I know I mean come on

01:37:30   Alrighty. Well, thank you for the feminine influence for tonight. Oh, you're very welcome. Here is dainty Marco back. Oh

01:37:37   Man I don't think we get away with calling him dainty Marco. Hi such a good idea to have your wife on the show

01:37:46   Isn't it Marco?

01:37:48   Regretting it in the background. No, that was great. I can't wait to hear the your no

01:37:52   I was sitting there like right in my eyes like I wasn't concerned about like having to buy multiple devices

01:37:58   I was thinking like oh my god

01:38:00   I'm gonna have to wait on like five different lines to get all the watches that we're gonna want

01:38:05   And all the different bands. Yes. Yeah

01:38:07   All right. So let's let's talk about some are we done with Apple pay?

01:38:12   Actually one one quick observation. I know this doesn't relate to iCloud, but it is kind of funny to me that

01:38:22   after all of this angst and agita about iCloud just what a week or two ago now Apple's saying to the world

01:38:28   Yes, trust us with your credit cards and trust us with your with all of this

01:38:32   We will be okay

01:38:33   And I mean I understand because I'm an engineer that one is not really related to the other

01:38:39   But it is kind of funny to me that there wasn't even like even a snicker or a nod to the fact that there was

01:38:45   All sorts of iCloud agita just a week or two ago. Well, I mean, yeah, first of all, like I think the geeks

01:38:51   Even people who are extremely critical of Apple

01:38:53   Know that like okay. Well, the credit cards aren't being stored in iCloud and stuff like that. Like like it there's like

01:39:01   Even that like it's hard to argue

01:39:03   You know like falsehoods about that being related or not related

01:39:07   Secondly people have a very short memory with this kind of stuff very very short and and you know Apple pay isn't even out yet

01:39:16   It's not gonna launch for at least another like month and a half or they said they said October

01:39:20   It's right now early September

01:39:22   That might be like Halloween when it launches like it or it might be November and like oh well

01:39:27   You know we started launching it in October like they're like

01:39:29   That that's long enough away that the celebrity nude hack thing is gonna be forgotten people have already forgotten you can yeah

01:39:37   It's a week old and they forgotten

01:39:39   Yeah

01:39:39   Not that we're saying that they should and it's not a big deal

01:39:41   But reality wise like that that type of news story

01:39:44   The cycle that it the news cycle that it's in will turn over 97 times for that

01:39:49   I think it could still be in the back of people's minds, but

01:39:51   You know for Apple Pay in particular Apple has a good story to tell customers

01:39:56   The story unfortunately involves credit card companies and banks knowing everything they currently know and and you know

01:40:02   But as you say well at least Apple is not adding another party

01:40:05   That's gonna know everything because Apple is not participating in that information exchange and has no

01:40:09   No reason to it doesn't base its business model around having that information or controlling it or selling or anything. It doesn't even want it

01:40:17   Everybody else still has it people are totally okay with that now with credit cards

01:40:20   It seems except for the people who only pay for everything with cash. So I

01:40:24   Think that'll be a non-factor at least an Apple pay

01:40:26   All right. Do you want to whine about the iPod touch and or iPod classic anyone?

01:40:32   That's the best follow-up is like we were just for trying to predict like one or two episodes ago

01:40:37   Like oh the iPod class is gonna be around forever. They're never gonna kill it and then yesterday killed it

01:40:41   Well, no, we said they could kill it at any time when we always expect them to and so far they haven't, you know

01:40:45   But there you go

01:40:47   It really is remarkable that they did kill it like of all of all the changes they made yesterday

01:40:51   To everything to their site to their store like how did how is that a high enough priority to even be removed from the site?

01:40:58   It's nice and symbolic if you want to go into their whole like oh the revolutionary input methods to finally retire the last

01:41:04   Well, I guess does the nano have a click wheel didn't retire the last one with the click wheel

01:41:07   I guess I think it's touch but I mean so was the class, you know what I mean?

01:41:11   like the wheel. Anyway, it's like phasing out of the original iPod form factor. And

01:41:17   also all that's left now is the Nano and the Shuffle and the Touch, which isn't really

01:41:20   an iPod.

01:41:21   Fair enough. All right. So let's talk about this Apple Watch, which, by the way, don't

01:41:27   call it an iWatch.

01:41:29   That's going to be difficult. I'll slowly train myself out of it.

01:41:32   Why do you think we're abandoning the i?

01:41:36   Maybe it's kind of dated.

01:41:37   It's not so much just that it's dated.

01:41:40   I think it may be misguided because I understand why they're doing it, but using generics is

01:41:47   not a great way to do it.

01:41:48   It's kind of the same reason that car makers all move to the BMW Mercedes naming convention.

01:41:55   We've talked about this back on neutral.

01:41:57   So a BMW has a series of numbers and letters, and Mercedes has numbers and letters as well.

01:42:03   has a, you know, a and then followed by a number or whatever, but when Acura came into

01:42:10   the luxury car business, which is Honda's luxury brand, they had the Acura Legend and

01:42:14   the Acura Integra, and what happened is that people would refer to their Legend or their

01:42:19   Integra, they wouldn't say the word Acura, and that's bad, so the theory goes for Acura

01:42:24   brand recognition, so Acura changed all his cars from the Legend and the Integra to a

01:42:30   a series of nonsensical letters like TL and RSX and also kind of made its car scraper

01:42:34   too, but anyway that's another story for a different podcast.

01:42:38   The theory being that if you give your cars names that are just a bunch of alphabet soup

01:42:43   or numbers, people will have to say the word "accura" more and the word "accura" will

01:42:47   be in their mind more.

01:42:48   So by calling our things the Apple Watch and Apple Pay and the Apple TV, it makes people

01:42:55   say Apple repeatedly or associate these products more with Apple, whereas you could say iPod

01:43:00   iWatch, there's the possibility in the mind, again in the mind of marketers, and maybe

01:43:05   in reality that people don't even understand who makes the iPod.

01:43:08   Is that Microsoft?

01:43:09   They know iPod.

01:43:10   They know iPhone.

01:43:12   They might know iWatch, but to the really casual person, connecting that all back to

01:43:16   Apple requires a leap of brand knowledge which may or may not be as strong as Apple would

01:43:21   like it to be.

01:43:22   Now, Apple does have a tremendously strong brand, one of the strongest brands in the

01:43:24   entire world.

01:43:25   This is probably not a problem for them, but I can see some marketer in a meeting saying,

01:43:30   this will really help people continue to hammer

01:43:33   the word Apple into their mind.

01:43:35   Oh, you wanna pay with Apple Pay instead of saying I pay?

01:43:37   Oh, you have an Apple Watch, is that your Apple TV?

01:43:40   The reason I think it might not be a great idea

01:43:43   is because they're using generics.

01:43:45   Watch, TV, pay, mail, I hate Apple Mail.

01:43:49   Every time I write an OS X review,

01:43:51   I have to write Apple Mail,

01:43:52   'cause I just write mail with a capital letter,

01:43:53   people think I misplaced a capital letter or something,

01:43:57   Or am I talking about like mail,

01:43:59   like the internet as like a concept?

01:44:01   No, I'm talking about, I'm never gonna write mail.app

01:44:03   'cause screw file name extensions.

01:44:05   So I always have to say Apple Mail, right?

01:44:08   Using a generic Apple Watch, like it would be better,

01:44:13   like in that respect, I think iPad and iPod

01:44:17   is not great with the A and the O or whatever,

01:44:19   but I think iPod and iPhone are better than a generic

01:44:24   because you can't just say watch by itself.

01:44:26   you have to say Apple Watch.

01:44:28   So I think I see what they're going for,

01:44:32   but to me it feels a lot like MacBook,

01:44:34   where it's like, I don't like it,

01:44:35   I still think MacBook is dumb,

01:44:37   I still think PowerBook was a better name,

01:44:38   but in that case they were getting the Mac name out there,

01:44:41   it's in iMac, it's in MacBook, you know it's a Mac.

01:44:44   Maybe the next computer will be the Apple Mac,

01:44:48   instead of just Mac, because it's not enough to, you know,

01:44:51   that's my theory behind it.

01:44:52   - The Apple 15.

01:44:54   - I'm not a fan.

01:44:55   - Well, I mean, a couple things.

01:44:57   I mean, first of all, Apple TV did this too.

01:44:59   It was, when it was in development, it was called ITV.

01:45:02   In fact, they even called it ITV.

01:45:03   They went through this similar thing

01:45:05   where people were first referring to it as the ITV,

01:45:07   and then when it was released,

01:45:08   it was released as the Apple TV.

01:45:09   And it sounded weird.

01:45:10   - Oh, that was the BBC, or not was it BBC, I don't know.

01:45:13   One of those various things, UK people,

01:45:15   you need more things to correct us on, there you go.

01:45:17   (laughing)

01:45:18   Whatever that ITV thing that you guys have,

01:45:21   it made us not be able to call it ITV.

01:45:23   - Right, so there was that,

01:45:24   where it's like, I think it sounds weird,

01:45:28   you know, yesterday and today.

01:45:29   I think, like Apple TV doesn't sound weird to me anymore.

01:45:31   It sounded weird the first day.

01:45:33   I think we'll get over it quickly.

01:45:35   Secondly, I don't think it's quite as much about

01:45:39   trying to boost the Apple brand.

01:45:41   I think that's part of it.

01:45:42   But I think another big part of it is fashion.

01:45:46   It is high fashion and high fashion branding.

01:45:50   As a society, we are okay having phones in our pockets

01:45:53   and taking them out occasionally,

01:45:54   and having computers in our bags,

01:45:56   and taking them out when we're using them.

01:45:57   When you're wearing something all the time,

01:46:00   like all day, every day, you're wearing something on you,

01:46:02   that is jewelry, that is an accessory,

01:46:04   the standards are so much higher

01:46:08   for what people are willing to wear

01:46:10   than what they're willing to carry in their pocket.

01:46:13   And I watch kind of sounds geeky.

01:46:16   Like to me, I watch sounds nerdy.

01:46:19   It's you know, CamelCase itself is pretty nerdy,

01:46:22   And it just kinda like, that sounds nerdy to me.

01:46:25   Whereas Apple Watch sounds like a higher class brand name.

01:46:29   Even though I know it's a trick in certain ways,

01:46:33   but it just sounds like iWatch is a geek thing

01:46:38   and Apple Watch is a fashion thing.

01:46:42   - They really wanted to go fashion,

01:46:43   they could've called it Watch by Apple.

01:46:46   (laughing)

01:46:48   The weird thing about fashion is,

01:46:49   we talked about this before I think,

01:46:52   The tolerance for being a billboard is strangely high in the fashion world because then maybe I'm still getting this wrong

01:46:58   I think I got it wrong another show and I re get it wrong people can re-correct me the whole idea being that you can't

01:47:02   copyright or

01:47:03   Otherwise protect the intellectual property of a design of something like a purse or a shoe

01:47:07   But you can protect your logo because that's your trademark

01:47:10   So they put their logos all over everything right and so now logos become part of the design because you know you have a we

01:47:17   Need tiff to come back and tell me but you know

01:47:18   Louis Vuitton bag or something with little logo all over it and that becomes like a pattern and you know

01:47:23   It becomes the logo itself becomes fashion and so it's like Apple doesn't put their logos

01:47:28   You know the logo on the back of the phone but not on the front and on the Apple watch

01:47:32   I don't think was there a logo anywhere on that thing?

01:47:34   I think on the back it has the little Apple but but Rolex has the little Rolex symbol in the word Rolex and Louis Vuitton

01:47:39   bags and also things are just

01:47:41   Covered with things like that and an apple does not have its logo everywhere

01:47:45   They say look they said logos on the back engraved anyway

01:47:48   Well, I said watch by Apple, but that's like it doesn't have a name like a product and

01:47:54   I think maybe it could benefit from one especially if it's gonna be like a high-end watch because all these Rolex is like

01:48:01   It's a product name for the type of watch it

01:48:03   I don't know enough about high-end watches to know but like you can't just say watch by itself you have to say Apple watch every

01:48:08   Time and it's a little bit of a mouthful

01:48:10   Is that your watch? Yeah, it's an Apple watch

01:48:12   You're right that iWatch sounds geekier, but Apple Watch just seems like

01:48:15   kind of a mouthful and kind of

01:48:18   generic and boring, but even swatch is better. Is that a swatch? Like that's a brand too, but it's just you know

01:48:24   a sub brand of some Swiss company that make you know, I mean like I don't I

01:48:27   don't know. I'm not I

01:48:30   really wish I almost wish it'd be cold out.

01:48:33   Because iPhone like has worked out really well. Don't you think iPhone has worked out well? Like granted it is more of a geek product

01:48:38   but I think

01:48:40   because this is fashion

01:48:41   That's maybe a reason not to make it so geeky, but it's geeky fashion

01:48:46   I mean, we'll get to this when we talk about the thing itself

01:48:48   But like there's no escaping it

01:48:49   The iPhone was a geeky kind of phone and eventually everybody had phone but everyone was totally comfortable to having their iPhone

01:48:54   sure, well, but also that was seven years ago and

01:48:57   And so not only is is that name coming from a different era, but it might even be played out

01:49:02   Well, I mean I'm not saying that I had to go on forever

01:49:06   I'm not a great fan of the eye either but like it will here's what we'll find out if this goes all eye touchy

01:49:11   You know the same way everyone calls the iPod touch the iTouch because they just like know Apple we do not accept your name

01:49:16   It's an iTouch forever and ever so creepy people could choose to just call this the iWatch

01:49:20   I mean we're doing it accidentally because we've been calling it that watch for a long time

01:49:24   We'll probably come around because we're the kind of geeks who care about what things are named

01:49:27   But just let's convene back

01:49:30   What if this watch has been out for six months and see if everybody you know still calls it an iWatch or if they call

01:49:35   It because a MacBook caught on people said MacBook, but people did not say iPod touch. They say iTouch right so

01:49:40   We'll see how this goes.

01:49:42   Really, it's not up to us, and it's not up to Apple's marketers whether this gets pulled

01:49:45   off.

01:49:46   It's up to the world at large.

01:49:48   And the little thing with the Apple logo and then the word, and then writing it out sometimes,

01:49:54   then having the little logo with the thing in it, that always struck me as weird with

01:49:57   Apple TV.

01:49:59   We're all used to it.

01:50:00   Everyone knows how they're going to do it.

01:50:02   The rule is you just write it out the long way if you're writing about it, but if you

01:50:04   want to make it as a little logo mark or whatever the word is, you put the little Apple logo

01:50:08   and the thing next to it.

01:50:09   And the small caps for watch, also not a fan of that.

01:50:13   - Well, that's just stylization in the marketing materials.

01:50:16   That's not the name.

01:50:17   - I know, but isn't that, the StrikeU is weird.

01:50:19   Like I can't think of, I guess, I mean,

01:50:20   technically Apple did it for Apple TV,

01:50:22   but TV is always, you know, all caps are small caps,

01:50:25   so it doesn't look as weird there.

01:50:27   - Yeah, I wouldn't put too much thought into that.

01:50:29   I mean, technically 5S, the S is lowercase,

01:50:31   but we all write it uppercase.

01:50:33   - Yeah, yeah, I know.

01:50:35   But it just seems like you like naming

01:50:38   to be like a nice clean win.

01:50:40   And lately the naming has been weird.

01:50:44   Not consistent with itself

01:50:47   and there's always some little problem.

01:50:51   - So do you think in the next year or two

01:50:53   that the iPhone will become the Apple phone?

01:50:55   - No.

01:50:56   - On account of?

01:50:58   - Because there's just too much brand equity in iPhone.

01:51:00   It's a great name.

01:51:01   - Yeah, iPhone is established.

01:51:03   - When are we gonna give up numbers?

01:51:05   - Yeah, that's coming sooner than that I think.

01:51:07   the number thing, like again, talk about the naming stuff,

01:51:10   ditching it for the iPad for being the new iPad

01:51:12   'cause they wanna stop doing it, but like,

01:51:14   the time is coming for the end of iPhone numbers.

01:51:17   Like, I don't think they're gonna go too far

01:51:19   into double digits with the iPhone

01:51:20   'cause it'll just start seeming--

01:51:22   - I don't think they'll get to double digits.

01:51:24   - I mean, 'cause people will just lose track.

01:51:25   Do you have the iPhone 13 or nine or 10,

01:51:28   like, just like, whatever.

01:51:30   - See, it wouldn't surprise me if they did make it

01:51:32   at least like to eight or nine,

01:51:34   because like, the public kinda names these for them.

01:51:37   Like, remember when I blogged briefly about like,

01:51:39   when the 4S came out and everyone freaked out

01:51:41   because it wasn't the iPhone 5?

01:51:44   And like, the response was so incredibly brutal,

01:51:49   unnecessarily and unfairly brutal,

01:51:52   because the 4S was like, quote,

01:51:54   "Not the real iPhone 5," or like, or not an iPhone 5.

01:51:58   And so the next year, even though the iPhone 5

01:52:00   was the sixth iPhone, they called it iPhone 5,

01:52:03   because like everybody was demanding iPhone 5

01:52:07   and the entire world was calling it iPhone 5

01:52:09   before it was even announced.

01:52:11   And so they just adopted that

01:52:12   'cause it was probably presumed to be better

01:52:15   for overall brand recognition and blah, blah, blah.

01:52:18   So this year it's the iPhone 6.

01:52:21   Next year I assume they're gonna do a 6s,

01:52:23   and after that they're probably gonna do a 7.

01:52:26   - I think they can make it easily

01:52:27   into 7, 8, and possibly even 9.

01:52:30   I just feel like once you start getting to doubles,

01:52:31   the numbers start to blur in people's minds

01:52:34   and they can't, like it's easier for people to remember

01:52:35   five, six, seven, then for them to remember 13, 14, 15.

01:52:39   - Right, but if we keep having these S steps,

01:52:41   we still have like eight more years to go.

01:52:44   - They've got time.

01:52:45   I mean, ditching them on the iPad has worked out,

01:52:50   more or less, like people don't care.

01:52:51   iPad, iPad Air.

01:52:55   - It is, but that also came with a massive revision.

01:52:59   Like, we'll see, what are they gonna call this fall's iPad?

01:53:02   The latest rumor is that the Retina Mini

01:53:04   won't even be updated, and there's gonna be

01:53:08   basically an iPad Air 2.

01:53:10   Is that gonna be the name?

01:53:11   Is it gonna be the iPad Air in parentheses late 2014?

01:53:16   (laughs)

01:53:17   What's it gonna be?

01:53:18   - They haven't been renaming the Mac Pro.

01:53:20   It's not the Mac Pro 2, the Mac Pro 3.

01:53:22   It will work out.

01:53:24   - The difference though with these products

01:53:25   is that phones seem to get upgraded either annually

01:53:29   if you're impatient and spoiled, or biannually,

01:53:32   at least in the US, biannually if you're a normal person.

01:53:35   Does that mean every other year?

01:53:36   - Don't go into that.

01:53:37   - Yeah, so the point is--

01:53:38   - It means both.

01:53:39   - I think it means fortnightly.

01:53:41   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:53:43   You know what I mean though, so--

01:53:44   - Fort annually.

01:53:45   - The thing is that these other products like the iPad,

01:53:49   generally speaking, those aren't upgraded on an annual

01:53:53   or every couple year basis, unlike a phone.

01:53:56   And so I think having the numbers on the phone

01:53:59   makes a little more sense,

01:54:01   and it will be harder to get rid of than on an iPad,

01:54:03   which you may only upgrade every two to three years.

01:54:07   - Yeah, we shall see.

01:54:08   We went off on a long tangent.

01:54:09   Let's talk about the watch.

01:54:11   - I love that we are now two hours in

01:54:13   and we haven't talked about the watch really yet.

01:54:15   - People are gonna kill us.

01:54:17   - So when I was watching this video,

01:54:20   I know there's gonna be,

01:54:21   I was pretty sure there's gonna be a watch.

01:54:24   They did the one more thing,

01:54:25   which I don't wanna get distracted on.

01:54:26   I think it's fine.

01:54:27   If you're gonna hold it back for something,

01:54:29   this is what you hold it back for.

01:54:30   I don't really care what Steve Jobs would have thought about them using his whole ideas.

01:54:33   They're supposed to do what they think is right.

01:54:35   They thought this was right.

01:54:36   I thought it was fine.

01:54:37   This is a significant product.

01:54:39   Then they showed the little intro video.

01:54:43   Tim Cook talked about it and he's like, "This is so important.

01:54:45   It's a new product category."

01:54:46   He didn't say it was a watch or anything like that.

01:54:48   He's like, "And here it is."

01:54:49   And you see the video and they show you.

01:54:51   This is going to be your first glimpse of this thing.

01:54:53   And they show you close-ups of parts of it.

01:54:54   You can't tell what's what.

01:54:55   So they showed the sensors in the back and you couldn't really...

01:54:58   They look crazy.

01:54:59   What the hell is this some sort of alien device and they show you the little crown, but you don't know

01:55:03   It's the crown yet, and it looks really weird

01:55:05   and

01:55:07   so

01:55:08   Watching this video. I thought the little details. They showing were really cool like this is something unexpected

01:55:14   This does not look like any watch. I've seen and it's kind of like one of those things at the back of the was like yeah

01:55:18   Games magazine anyway one of those kids magazines where they show you an extreme close-up of something you have to guess what it is

01:55:25   And it's hard to tell because it's really close up

01:55:27   That's what the beginning of his video was for and when they like in the third or fourth shot when they finally show you the

01:55:32   Watch itself and it rotates into view my first

01:55:35   Impression immediate was disappointment that it looked

01:55:38   Like a smartwatch that was my immediate first impression. What was your guys the reaction to that?

01:55:44   Same I I was

01:55:47   Starting to feel more and more smug about my own theory that

01:55:51   It wouldn't look like a pebble or anything like that and it would be more about sensors than anything else

01:55:56   It's sort of about sensors, but I was way off base and I was hoping for and expecting something that looked

01:56:04   Totally different and I think and you touched on this the digital crown

01:56:08   That's sort of different in that it's using something. We already know but in a very different way

01:56:13   But it I was surprised to see that it didn't look that

01:56:18   wild however the

01:56:21   the

01:56:23   bands when they showed those.

01:56:25   I actually got surprisingly excited about those.

01:56:27   I thought they all looked really cool

01:56:29   and it was clever the way that they have the little slide

01:56:33   in and out in order to change them.

01:56:35   - So what was your first gut reaction?

01:56:37   It rotates into view, you finally see what it looks like.

01:56:39   What do you think immediately?

01:56:40   Not what you think now,

01:56:41   but what did you just feel that second?

01:56:44   - I completely agree with Casey, basically.

01:56:48   When I first saw it, at first,

01:56:51   actually a few days beforehand, a few days ago,

01:56:54   some site leaked some CAD drawing of,

01:56:57   turned out to be exactly right,

01:56:58   a CAD drawing of the watch's body.

01:57:00   And it was like the EVT, the engineering test drawing

01:57:03   of something like that.

01:57:04   And so when I saw that I was disappointed.

01:57:06   I was like, oh man, it's just like a lumpy rectangle.

01:57:08   Like I was hoping either for a round face

01:57:10   or for a really minimal thin kind of design,

01:57:14   like something else that didn't look like

01:57:16   the other smartwatches.

01:57:18   And I think, you know, all of us in the tech business,

01:57:22   I've been drafting a blog post about this

01:57:23   that I'm still to finish, but before the iPad came out,

01:57:28   I made this post, basically we were all calling it

01:57:32   the tablet, I think 'cause Goober started

01:57:34   calling it the tablet, and we knew there was a tablet

01:57:37   that was very heavily removed,

01:57:38   we didn't know anything about it.

01:57:39   And this was December '09, like about a month

01:57:42   before the iPad was actually announced.

01:57:44   And during this time, I made a couple of posts

01:57:48   and one of them I was saying like,

01:57:49   the big problem with tablets is input.

01:57:52   How is Apple gonna solve the input problem?

01:57:55   And virtual keyboards aren't mediocre,

01:57:59   physical keyboards are clunky with a tablet,

01:58:01   and I went through all the different things

01:58:03   like what they could do,

01:58:04   and my conclusion was basically like,

01:58:07   they're probably just gonna do something

01:58:09   I haven't thought of.

01:58:10   And a few other people had similar thoughts

01:58:15   and were writing about that.

01:58:17   And then you actually, John, I found an article by you

01:58:20   on ours called Antacid Tablet that I'll just paste it

01:58:23   in the chat that I'm going to link to.

01:58:25   And you basically said, yeah, there's a common notion

01:58:30   that Apple's gonna have to do something crazy,

01:58:32   but they probably won't, and they'll probably just use

01:58:34   existing stuff that we all know about and just do it well.

01:58:37   And that's what happened.

01:58:39   And it turned out the iPad came out and they didn't invent

01:58:42   any crazy new input mechanism.

01:58:44   They just did the ones we knew about well.

01:58:47   And it had problems.

01:58:50   Input on the iPad is challenging.

01:58:52   Keyboards on the iPad are still an unsolved problem.

01:58:55   It has these shortcomings, but Apple just kind of punted,

01:58:59   like, well, we don't really know how--

01:59:01   whenever people say, oh, well, they'll

01:59:03   have to just come up with something we can't think of,

01:59:06   the number of times Apple has come up

01:59:08   with something we are not thinking of

01:59:10   is actually pretty low.

01:59:12   Usually they do things that people have thought of before

01:59:14   and they just do them better.

01:59:16   Apple is not made of crazy gods, they're made of people.

01:59:21   And chances are, if you can't think of a practical,

01:59:26   reasonable, doable way to solve a problem,

01:59:29   they probably can't either.

01:59:31   And so we saw a lot of that leading up to this watch thing.

01:59:35   Where we saw tons of people we know,

01:59:37   and ourselves even included, just saying things like,

01:59:40   well you can look at smartwatches that are out there

01:59:42   and they have a number of problems,

01:59:43   mainly size, battery life, and display,

01:59:47   and interaction really.

01:59:48   And so it's very, very challenging to try to figure out

01:59:53   how to interact with a screen this small

01:59:55   that is going to be functionally so busy,

01:59:58   like have so many functions on it.

02:00:00   You can't just cover the thing in buttons, that's weird.

02:00:02   You can't do much with a touchscreen 'cause it's so small.

02:00:05   And if it is an LCD screen, if it is a touchscreen,

02:00:08   then you have battery challenges,

02:00:10   which you already have battery challenges to begin with

02:00:12   and that makes it even harder.

02:00:13   And so you take this thing and so we were all saying,

02:00:18   well, they're gonna do something we haven't thought of yet.

02:00:20   They're gonna solve the battery issue or the display issue.

02:00:24   They're gonna have a weird display

02:00:25   that wraps around the whole thing

02:00:27   or somebody doesn't even have a display.

02:00:29   It's probably not gonna just gonna be a square LCD,

02:00:32   like a touchscreen like everyone else has.

02:00:33   When then it comes out and it is what everyone else has.

02:00:37   It's just done better.

02:00:38   And so, you know, I was disappointed to see that.

02:00:42   I was disappointed to see like, well,

02:00:44   it's, you know, I've been relatively uninterested

02:00:48   in all these smartwatches so far.

02:00:51   And part of this is I don't wear a watch.

02:00:52   I mean, I wore a watch in middle school,

02:00:54   but I haven't worn one since then.

02:00:56   So, you know, so it's a bigger jump for me

02:00:59   to go from no watch to a watch.

02:01:02   But I was disappointed that they didn't come up

02:01:05   with some magic, but I also, like,

02:01:06   I can't fault them for it, because like,

02:01:07   well, I don't know what they should have done

02:01:09   instead of this.

02:01:10   I think a round one would have looked better,

02:01:12   but otherwise, it still would have been probably large.

02:01:15   And look, I printed out paper printouts of these two,

02:01:19   and the small one looks better on my wrist, I think.

02:01:24   See, I don't know, fashion-wise,

02:01:27   are men allowed to wear the small one?

02:01:29   I don't even know.

02:01:30   - Yeah, that's what I was thinking,

02:01:30   that there'd be a lot of men who would pick the small one.

02:01:33   - Regardless, the small one, looking at them now,

02:01:37   It does look nicer on my wrist, but I'm worried that I won't be able to see anything

02:01:41   on the screen because it is noticeably smaller.

02:01:45   That I think will be a problem for anybody who picks the small one, that it does fit

02:01:49   noticeably less.

02:01:50   It is substantially smaller in person.

02:01:52   Also, the biggest problem with these to me is that they're just so tall.

02:01:56   They're thick.

02:01:58   That I think is going to be challenging fashion-wise to get around.

02:02:02   Now that being said, you can go back,

02:02:06   probably you can pick some time in history

02:02:07   and you can say, well, seeing a big phone rectangle

02:02:10   in your pocket is unfashionable.

02:02:12   And these days, it doesn't matter nearly as much

02:02:14   because everybody's carrying around phone rectangles

02:02:15   and everybody who has owned any given pair of jeans

02:02:19   for more than about two months,

02:02:20   you can probably see a slight wear outline

02:02:23   in the phone rectangle pocket.

02:02:25   You can see where they keep their phone.

02:02:27   And that's just become acceptable

02:02:29   because we've all decided

02:02:30   that it's worth carrying these devices around.

02:02:32   So maybe, like to me, the Apple Watch,

02:02:37   it looks big and chunky to me,

02:02:41   but we might decide as a society that's worth doing.

02:02:45   But for now, similar to Casey, I saw it and I thought,

02:02:50   you know, that's bigger, thicker,

02:02:53   and more square than I would have preferred.

02:02:54   - So I was excited to see Tim Cook echo very closely

02:02:59   on stage that what I said when we talked about the iWatch on a recent, not that recent show

02:03:04   or whatever, we talked about all the other existing watches and I'm like, whatever Apple

02:03:08   does, all these things that these Android devices are doing, you can't just take a smartphone,

02:03:17   shrink it down and shove it on your wrist, which is what all these Android devices were

02:03:20   doing and it was just like this Android Wear or even a lot of the Motorola watch, it was

02:03:24   like take our existing smartphone, OS and interface, squish it down, now you have little

02:03:29   a tiny smartphone on your wrist.

02:03:30   That just does not work, it's terrible, can't do it.

02:03:32   And Tim Cook said as much on stage,

02:03:35   and he was talking about it in terms of the software,

02:03:37   of like, you can't just take your iPhone and shrink it down.

02:03:39   He was talking entirely about,

02:03:40   you can't just take an iPhone app,

02:03:41   so you can't have pinch zoom,

02:03:42   you can't have all the same UI,

02:03:44   you can't have all this stuff.

02:03:45   So I was like, right on, Tim, we agree there.

02:03:47   Where we differ, and it gets back to my initial gut reaction

02:03:51   to the phone is looking like a little, you know,

02:03:53   Airstream trailer on your wrist,

02:03:55   and a little rectangle and just the whole thing,

02:03:57   is that I thought what they would go for

02:04:01   is something that technology doesn't exist for now,

02:04:05   but will eventually, and that is,

02:04:08   like, we knew it was gonna be big.

02:04:10   We knew it was gonna be thicker than you would think it was,

02:04:12   and by the way, big, thick, chunky watches, I think,

02:04:14   have been in fashion at various times, at least for men,

02:04:16   so that's not even that big of a deal,

02:04:18   but when you have something like that,

02:04:19   like, okay, well, it's gotta be big

02:04:21   because reasons X, Y, Z, the screen,

02:04:23   and battery life, big, thick battery,

02:04:25   you can try to minimize that by making the transition

02:04:29   between the strap and the thing be less abrupt.

02:04:34   Because a thin strap that goes into the edge

02:04:37   of your little Airstream trailer on your wrist

02:04:39   highlights the fact that the thing is thick

02:04:42   and the strap is thin.

02:04:43   Again, totally expected replaceable straps, totally.

02:04:46   I mean, even again, with the getting back

02:04:47   to the naked robotic core thing,

02:04:50   like kind of like Fitbit does.

02:04:51   If you've ever heard of Fitbit,

02:04:52   they give you this little,

02:04:53   they give you an actual little naked robotic core

02:04:55   and it shoves into the little rubberized wrist thing.

02:04:57   And not that I'm saying Apple's gonna make

02:04:58   a rubberized Fitbit type thing,

02:05:00   but the same type of idea that the overall shape,

02:05:02   you'd have replaceable bands,

02:05:04   perhaps have replaceable everything,

02:05:05   and the only thing, the iWatch part of it

02:05:07   would be a literal naked robotic cord

02:05:09   that slid into this thing,

02:05:09   and you'd try to minimize the fact that it's so darn thick

02:05:13   by tapering it somehow.

02:05:14   And I'm sure they investigated this or whatever,

02:05:16   and probably what they came up with was,

02:05:18   look, we know how to make rounded rectangles

02:05:20   with screens on top really well.

02:05:22   Let the, you know, the iMac,

02:05:24   Let the thing be true to itself.

02:05:25   It is a little tiny rounded rectangle.

02:05:27   It has a CPU in it, it has a screen on top,

02:05:29   it has a battery, it's a little sandwich.

02:05:31   We know we're gonna make it thinner as time goes on.

02:05:34   Let's just stick with this design now.

02:05:36   But it just really does look like a lunchbox on your wrist.

02:05:38   And they can make it fancy all they want,

02:05:40   and they can put a comically oversized crown on it

02:05:43   as a UI thing and have it be off center

02:05:45   with a big giant button.

02:05:46   And we know this will all shrink down,

02:05:48   but I was really expecting them to

02:05:53   to try to mask the fact that it's so big

02:05:56   and instead they've essentially,

02:05:58   and this is a totally John I.M.O.V.E.

02:06:00   embraced it, like this is the watch,

02:06:02   this is the thing, it's a metal thing,

02:06:04   we can make it shiny and nice and make the details nice

02:06:07   and we'll have these straps intersected in the middle

02:06:09   so the thickness is kind of minified

02:06:11   because if you have the straps in the bottom,

02:06:13   the whole Airstream trailer will be poking up on your wrist.

02:06:15   That's why when people put it on they say,

02:06:16   "Oh, it doesn't look that thick, it's not so bad."

02:06:20   It's just that they are not trying to smoothly transition from the watch, let alone the crazy mock-ups that had like,

02:06:27   "Oh, the whole thing is a screen and like it'll be longer until we get that or whatever so they can revise that when they want to."

02:06:32   But this design is definitely more jarring in and on a macro scale than I would have liked.

02:06:44   But on the micro scale, it is everything you would have expected of Apple.

02:06:47   the UI itself and the details of it, the way the screen works, even the transition between the screen and the case and the

02:06:53   little gentle curve and the force push on the thing. Like every other detail of it that they've done

02:06:58   I'm very impressed with. They are basically showing everybody else. This is how you do a smartwatch.

02:07:02   You do not shrink iPhone apps down on them. It has to be a totally new interface.

02:07:05   It has to be a companion to the phone for now. We're not going to put...

02:07:10   People asking why the hell doesn't have a lightning port.

02:07:13   That I think that's obvious you don't want any place where there are contacts that you can you know a splash of water can get

02:07:19   Up inside you don't want crap to collect and bottom line lightning part takes it takes up a huge amount of space relative to the

02:07:24   Size of that watch where something has to go in its hollow space

02:07:27   And you have to put you know forget a lightning port was out the inductive charging is very clever like everything else about it

02:07:32   I'm totally on board with just that it's a it's a little

02:07:36   You know little little lunchbox on your wrist with the very nice strap around it and that is

02:07:42   is like I said, when I tweeted during the presentation,

02:07:47   I wanna fast forward right now

02:07:48   to the iPhone 4S design of this.

02:07:50   So go however many generations that is,

02:07:52   it's gonna look a lot better

02:07:54   like three or four years from now.

02:07:55   Now it totally looks like,

02:07:58   I think even the first iPhone looked better.

02:08:00   I mean, there's obvious similarities

02:08:01   'cause they're both kind of rounded lozenge type things,

02:08:03   but yeah.

02:08:05   - You know, it's funny.

02:08:07   The thing that I keep thinking about

02:08:11   with regard to the Apple Watch, other than,

02:08:13   I don't get why I would want this,

02:08:15   and as I've said numerous times in the past,

02:08:17   any time I say that, I end up wanting it.

02:08:19   But the other thing I was thinking about is,

02:08:23   it looks to me to be extremely thick,

02:08:28   and I don't think I'd be into that.

02:08:31   And so I completely agree with you, Jon,

02:08:33   that I've got to assume over the next couple of years

02:08:37   it'll get thinner and thinner and thinner,

02:08:39   And that starting to sound more appealing to me.

02:08:43   - Well, like I said, I don't know enough about watches,

02:08:45   but I do know that I have seen some ridiculously thick,

02:08:48   like normal watches on people.

02:08:50   And I think that is a fashion thing.

02:08:53   Like at various times in history,

02:08:55   and we may be in one of them now,

02:08:56   that comically thick watches were not embarrassing, right?

02:09:01   That they were, you know,

02:09:03   that it was something you wanted to have,

02:09:04   that it was manly, that it was exciting,

02:09:06   that it was interesting, not only thick, but huge.

02:09:08   Having this come in two sizes,

02:09:11   that was the best part of the announcement.

02:09:13   I'm like, oh, thank God.

02:09:14   Because the size of this thing,

02:09:16   it's like people have different size wrists.

02:09:18   You cannot put something that big,

02:09:19   it's not gonna look good on everybody.

02:09:21   Having a smaller one,

02:09:22   it's hopefully the battery life is reasonable on it,

02:09:25   shows they understand there's a limit to the size of,

02:09:29   there's basically a limit to the size of the screen

02:09:31   you can put on your wrist and not feel ridiculous

02:09:33   until the screens get much thinner and much, you know,

02:09:35   like the futuristic sort of giant holo band thing

02:09:38   that has, you know, we're not there yet, right?

02:09:40   So I'm glad that they have a smaller version,

02:09:43   but I think the thickness, I mean, I don't know.

02:09:48   I'm trying to think, will this be a barrier?

02:09:50   Other than me just saying like,

02:09:51   I wish they had like, minimized it so it didn't look so bad,

02:09:53   I'm wondering if thickness will bother anybody

02:09:55   who's interested in a smartwatch.

02:09:57   'Cause if you're interested at all on a smartwatch,

02:10:00   this one's fine.

02:10:01   Like, it looks better than all the other smartwatches

02:10:03   I've seen in terms of the details.

02:10:04   It is not any more ridiculous than the existing lunchboxes

02:10:08   on your wrists that are out there.

02:10:10   Maybe the Motorola one has a little bit more panache

02:10:12   'cause it's round, sort of, flat, tiring round,

02:10:15   but I think the Motorola one looks bigger and more,

02:10:20   like I've seen women wearing the Motorola,

02:10:22   what is it called, 360 or something?

02:10:23   - Yeah.

02:10:24   - That their imaginative name, not as good as watch,

02:10:26   that's a name, they should come up with a name like that.

02:10:28   Anyway, that one I think looks,

02:10:32   I think they did an excellent job in their publicity shots

02:10:34   of showing real people wearing the watch

02:10:36   in a way that it looks normal.

02:10:38   And I was just amazed that I'm like,

02:10:39   do they Photoshop that?

02:10:40   Is that really how the watch looks?

02:10:41   'Cause all those beautiful people wearing the watch

02:10:44   and those shots of like joggers

02:10:47   or the person holding a baby or sit, like all those people,

02:10:50   the watches just look normal on their wrist.

02:10:52   And it almost made me think like that it had to be fake

02:10:54   'cause they did not look like ridiculous smartwatch.

02:10:56   And that's what everyone says who puts it on,

02:10:58   that they may look huge on Apple's website

02:11:01   when it's gigantic floating Airstream trailer

02:11:02   coming at you, but on your wrist,

02:11:04   it does not look as ridiculous.

02:11:06   I still think it looked a little ridiculous

02:11:07   on Johnny Ive and Tim.

02:11:08   Like sometimes you could see the watch was so heavy

02:11:10   that it was like rotating around their wrist, you know,

02:11:12   from the weight of the watch

02:11:13   was like twisting the band on their arm.

02:11:15   And some of the bands, like that big glaring white,

02:11:18   like the bands look really thick and chunky too,

02:11:20   even, you know, so. - Yeah.

02:11:22   - I don't know, I don't,

02:11:23   as a fashion accessory,

02:11:26   I think they're doing everything they can

02:11:27   with the current technology.

02:11:28   But I was very surprised by the conventionalness

02:11:33   of the design.

02:11:36   Yeah, like it was like we were all expecting something radically different from the other ones and it really isn't that radically different from the other ones. It's just better.

02:11:43   I didn't think it needed to be radically different. I'm just like it's a design choice.

02:11:46   You could they could make like technology wise they could make the thing that I'm envisioning.

02:11:49   Still has replaceable straps but like tapered so that like so they're envisioning the time when the difference between the strap and the watch will start to go away.

02:11:57   Now we know there is a huge difference in the strap and the watch and Apple has chosen

02:12:01   to embrace that difference and say we are not going to mask that difference. We're not going to hide it.

02:12:05   we're going to say yes, there's the strap and there's the watch and the watch is actually much thicker than the strap and

02:12:10   there's no getting around that and we're going to own up to it and here it is as opposed to a

02:12:15   More tapered type solution within the same technology

02:12:19   It's like I'm not asking for a giant curved screen that goes around the whole thing or anything crazy like that

02:12:22   like I think you know

02:12:23   It's just it's just the design choice and that's more of a I'm surprised by a style choice

02:12:29   It really shouldn't have been in retrospect in terms of that's the type of style they've you know, they've expressed

02:12:34   Interest in before especially Johnny I but like the the flower I Mac and everything like that of letting the base be true itself down

02:12:40   The ground letting the thing float in the air. It's just a different direction. They could have gone

02:12:44   and I think the rectangular nests also of the screen and

02:12:48   the like the fact that the the crown is off-center like there's a lot of the surprising amount of asymmetry for

02:12:55   Johnny I've designed don't you think?

02:12:57   Yeah, I wanted to quickly go back to a point you made earlier about traditional watches that are sometimes big in a fashion statement

02:13:04   And that doesn't really bother me when I see like a Panerai or something that's just really really big

02:13:11   And I think the reason is is because we've seen that there are watches

02:13:16   You know regular traditional watches that are really really small

02:13:20   And so it's obvious to me that when you have a really big watch

02:13:23   That's a deliberate choice by that watch manufacturer that they want to make this large because we've seen small ones and they know they exist

02:13:32   Conversely, we've never seen a really tiny smartwatch, or whatever we're calling these,

02:13:38   and the Apple Watch appears to be big because it's out of necessity.

02:13:44   And I think that's why it doesn't look innately good like a Panerai or a Rolex or something

02:13:50   like that would.

02:13:51   Well, we've seen mock-ups of smartwatches that are small, like the technology doesn't

02:13:55   exist for us to do.

02:13:57   But most of those mock-ups aren't as usable as Apple's, because the bottom line is you

02:14:01   need someplace like I've talked about it on the past shows like if you made one of those

02:14:05   mock ups like how the hell would you deal with the screen is it just one like you just swipe like

02:14:10   those ones that look like the screen curves halfway around your wrist how would you how

02:14:13   would you deal with that would you scroll and flick and like move like the the dial as in like

02:14:17   a physical thing that you can you know you know interact with the watch and manipulate what's on

02:14:24   the screen without covering what's on the screen in a secure way where you're not going to

02:14:27   accidentally start rotating the watch around your wrist or anything like that that is an important

02:14:30   feature like those are problems that they're solving not in like ways that no one could

02:14:35   have thought of because as many people want it like the blackberry had the various dials

02:14:38   and the little balls and stuff like that like this is well trod territory for small devices

02:14:42   of how you interact with them without touching the screen but apple is the first one to just

02:14:48   i think what's on the screen is just as important like the interface they're choosing to do

02:14:53   there the sort of minimal interface it doesn't look like anything like an iphone interface

02:14:56   It's entirely new UI with entirely new controls and entirely new and way of interacting with it and all that stuff

02:15:01   that is where

02:15:03   It's obvious that and and then the physical design of the little dial and everything is where Apple has spent all its time because you like

02:15:09   Someone ABC news reporter asked them in one of these exclusive interviews like it's so hard making something when that a lot of people are gonna

02:15:15   Have to use but people don't get to use it until you make it

02:15:18   I'm like you dummy like they've been using this thing in Apple for like God knows how many years

02:15:23   That's all they do is use it just using it and use it like crazy

02:15:25   If they seriously, you know, how many protests in there?

02:15:28   Like that's all they do is use them. They they're not guessing that this dial situation is gonna work out

02:15:34   They've used it for like a year two years

02:15:36   God knows how long and and they threw away all the ones that didn't work and this is the best one they can you know

02:15:40   So I have faith that they have made good decisions about this because it's not like they rush this out to

02:15:46   Brush this out to get into the smartphone market like some other smart watch market like some other companies

02:15:51   - I do have one concern about the,

02:15:54   well, I have a number of concerns,

02:15:55   but one of my concerns was just me personally using it.

02:15:58   You know, until this point,

02:16:00   if I'm walking down the street

02:16:02   or if I'm sitting in the subway

02:16:04   or if I'm otherwise in public,

02:16:06   you can't know what technology I own unless I have it out.

02:16:11   This is always out.

02:16:12   - I don't know about that.

02:16:14   I think you have a,

02:16:15   we can't know what kind of technology you own.

02:16:17   Hmm, black t-shirt, jeans, you know.

02:16:20   [LAUGHTER]

02:16:22   You are not as stealth as you think you are.

02:16:25   Right down to the rectangle worn into your pants pockets.

02:16:27   That's true.

02:16:28   Well--

02:16:28   And the BMW M5 that you just got out of.

02:16:30   [LAUGHTER]

02:16:32   Well, even then, I get that in black, so it's less conspicuous.

02:16:34   Oh, yeah.

02:16:35   It's totally less conspicuous.

02:16:36   You're right.

02:16:36   It's a very inconspicuous car with ridiculously huge wheels.

02:16:40   An enormous mouth.

02:16:42   And yeah, you're totally right, Marco.

02:16:44   And additionally, how often do you

02:16:45   go walking down the street in Manhattan just whistling

02:16:47   and looking about?

02:16:49   - When I'm walking around my home next to Wayne Manor.

02:16:52   (laughing)

02:16:54   Yeah, all right.

02:16:55   - Well no, so my concern is partially being mugged

02:17:00   and partially being obnoxious.

02:17:03   And I'm sure in time this will probably become

02:17:07   less of an issue, just like how,

02:17:10   I remember when I first got my first Discman,

02:17:14   my first portable CD player,

02:17:17   my mom advised me not to show it out anytime

02:17:21   because people would get mugged for their Discmen.

02:17:24   Same problem with every portable electronics thing

02:17:27   that became popular and that thieves started learning

02:17:29   was valuable.

02:17:31   The New York City subway for years was advising people

02:17:34   not to use the stock Apple white earbuds

02:17:37   because that was a clear signal to anyone around you

02:17:40   that you had an expensive Apple device in your pocket.

02:17:43   And they were telling you,

02:17:45   "Leave it in your pocket, don't take it out."

02:17:48   And so I think this is gonna have similar issues as that,

02:17:53   where this is going to telegraph to everybody,

02:17:56   not only do I have an iPhone in my pocket,

02:17:58   'cause this only works with iPhones,

02:18:00   but this thing itself is expensive

02:18:02   and possibly made of gold and other things.

02:18:04   And it's always out there.

02:18:07   I mean, you can wear long sleeves maybe,

02:18:09   but otherwise, for the most part,

02:18:11   this is always gonna be there.

02:18:12   And so it both screams mug me,

02:18:15   And it also screams, I'm a nerd at first,

02:18:20   and maybe over time that will get less,

02:18:22   so I hope it does, and I'm sure Apple hopes it does.

02:18:24   - It totally will.

02:18:25   Remember what it was like to use a smartphone in public

02:18:27   when the iPhone first came out?

02:18:28   Oh, you have an iPhone?

02:18:29   Now nobody cares you have an iPhone,

02:18:31   I mean, except for muggers, but like whatever.

02:18:34   Worrying about being robbed is kind of silly,

02:18:35   'cause you know, whatever.

02:18:36   You have nice things, people are gonna wanna steal them,

02:18:39   robbery rates have been going down for years,

02:18:41   you'll be okay.

02:18:42   The embarrassment just among your peers of being that guy.

02:18:46   Even like, think of the first person to use a Bluetooth,

02:18:49   one of those Bluetooth headphone things,

02:18:50   talking to the cell phone,

02:18:51   and it looked like you were talking to yourself.

02:18:52   People got over that, and that still amazes me.

02:18:54   I think people will get over the watch

02:18:56   if they sell a lot of them.

02:18:57   You just gotta sell a lot of them.

02:18:58   Now the weird part, and I tweeted this as well

02:19:01   during the thing of like, oh, Apple Watch starts at $349.

02:19:04   I said, that's great, that's where Apple Watch starts.

02:19:08   Where does Apple Watch end?

02:19:10   - That's a good question.

02:19:11   and people were continuing to talk.

02:19:13   As soon as I put that price up,

02:19:14   I asked that question on Twitter,

02:19:15   and today people are still talking about it.

02:19:16   So what do you guys think?

02:19:18   If you bought the most expensive Apple Watch,

02:19:22   how much would it cost you?

02:19:23   - So we're talking about the edition edition.

02:19:26   - Oh, you assume that's gonna be the most expensive,

02:19:28   but anyway, just what's the number?

02:19:30   It starts at 350, where does it stop?

02:19:32   - I have a hard time seeing them going above 1,000

02:19:36   for the watch itself.

02:19:37   I mean, we'll see what the band,

02:19:39   some of the bands will be premium,

02:19:40   some of them will be more pedestrianly priced.

02:19:43   I'm guessing if you get the edition edition

02:19:48   and get some kind of reasonable band for it,

02:19:50   I'm guessing you're spending over 1,000,

02:19:52   but not by a whole lot.

02:19:53   - Oh, that's the question.

02:19:54   We don't even know if the band is separate.

02:19:55   Like when they said it starts at 349,

02:19:58   I assume that gets you a watch and a band, right?

02:20:01   - I would bet not, but we'll see.

02:20:02   Or maybe it gets you the really crappy nylon band

02:20:05   or whatever, and then it's like to get anything good,

02:20:06   you gotta spend another 100 bucks or whatever on the band.

02:20:09   Who knows, we'll see.

02:20:11   It would not surprise me to see the gold ones cross 1,000,

02:20:15   but it would surprise me to see them go very far past it.

02:20:18   - Casey?

02:20:19   - I think with watch and ban together,

02:20:22   you're gonna look at between one and 2,000

02:20:24   for anything that Apple offers.

02:20:26   - For the top end one, you mean?

02:20:27   - Mm-hmm.

02:20:28   - Yeah, we're not talking about aftermarket.

02:20:30   Obviously, someone's gonna buy this,

02:20:31   put diamonds all over it, do silly things like that.

02:20:33   So on Twitter, Dr. Wave was asking

02:20:37   if it was gonna be over 1,000.

02:20:38   said gotta be definitely certainly over a thousand that's yeah that's a gimme

02:20:42   the question is how far above a thousand the thing I don't know about is what

02:20:47   kind of I don't know how much like just the cost of the gold on the gold ones is

02:20:52   like I don't do the math to figure out like the plating and all the other just

02:20:55   so like just just getting down to brass tacks of like what are the parts here

02:20:59   because once you start using precious metals like even before you consider

02:21:02   markup there's some minimum amount that it's gonna go so I really have no idea

02:21:05   that but I say definitely over a thousand. 2000 I think if you bought the

02:21:12   best watch in all the bands you could break 2000 but but one watch in one band

02:21:16   I do not expect it to be over 2000 but I admit fully admit that I have no idea

02:21:21   how much jewelry costs or gold costs or anything about that so and here's the

02:21:25   thing here's what it gets down to though is like luxury items like jewelry or not

02:21:30   just really but like you know fancy watches are not priced based on the

02:21:33   Materials put into them that's like when you pay 30 grand for a watch

02:21:36   There's not 30 grand worth of material or labor in that right the price is wholly

02:21:40   Disconnected from the parts the labor or any other part of it is just it's just the price has to do with

02:21:46   It's not I mean even Ferrari's a closer connection between the parts the labor and the price of them because they use expensive exotic

02:21:53   Materials and a lot of labor to put them together

02:21:56   There is a closer connection between that, but the watch is just totally nonsensical. I mean

02:22:01   Anything with fashion like that dress does not cost you know

02:22:04   $20,000 just doesn't period right you're paying for something else, and I do not feel like Apple is

02:22:11   Going to price any of its products nor has it really ever priced any of his product that

02:22:16   Disconnected from the parts and labor that go into it. They're gonna have big margins sometimes the margins are ridiculous

02:22:22   Like they were on the 20th anniversary Mac or even the Mac 2 FX

02:22:25   Which was like like 13 grand in today's money or something like that

02:22:29   But maybe it's like you know, what is the base will put it another way?

02:22:33   What is the margin that Apple would feel too embarrassed to put on its product 200% markup 500 a thousand?

02:22:40   I don't think they're going to go

02:22:42   they're gonna go much over $2,000 if

02:22:45   Really they could sell the watch at a thousand or fifteen hundred and have like, you know

02:22:51   The best margins of any product they ever sold for sure

02:22:55   but not the kind of margins like on a 50 grand Rolex.

02:22:58   Like I just don't see that.

02:23:00   - Yeah, I mean, I think the edition,

02:23:04   like the gold, that could be crazy.

02:23:06   But okay, so we already know the starting point, 350.

02:23:09   Even if we assume that's for only the small one

02:23:12   and with no band included,

02:23:14   I'm guessing most people who own this thing

02:23:17   probably aren't going over a total of five or 600.

02:23:21   Like I'm guessing most of the ones that actually get sold

02:23:24   are gonna be in like that $500 total range

02:23:26   of watch plus band.

02:23:27   Most people are probably not gonna have multiple bands

02:23:30   or multiple watches.

02:23:31   And this is the kind of thing I would expect

02:23:34   that you don't replace as often as you replace a phone

02:23:38   or even an iPad.

02:23:39   - I think the average selling price might be similar

02:23:41   to the phone price.

02:23:42   Not the phone that people pay price,

02:23:44   but like the real price.

02:23:46   What is the iPhone 5S?

02:23:47   It's like $600, $700 to Apple when they sell one of those?

02:23:53   Yeah, it's almost 650, yeah.

02:23:54   Yeah.

02:23:55   That seems about right for-- which is crazy to think about.

02:23:58   It's like, oh, the watch is going to be cheaper.

02:24:00   Like, it seems like another product that, revenue-wise,

02:24:04   if they sold as many of them as they sell phones,

02:24:06   could have a similar impact.

02:24:07   Because that's-- for the first generation,

02:24:10   kind of like how the first iPhones

02:24:11   had that ridiculous price and then came down or whatever.

02:24:14   But I think you could be right about that.

02:24:16   So one thing I'm curious about is,

02:24:18   will there be different capacities?

02:24:20   What do you mean capacities?

02:24:21   - Yeah, so let's talk about the software side of this,

02:24:23   'cause I think that's very interesting.

02:24:25   - Yeah, because, was it Kevin Lynch who did the demo?

02:24:27   Is that, did I get the name right?

02:24:29   - Yep, Adobe guy, who would've said,

02:24:30   "What is that guy from Adobe working on?

02:24:32   "Now you know."

02:24:34   - He had said, and I tried to get a verbatim quote,

02:24:37   but it may not be perfect,

02:24:39   "The music that's stored right here on your Apple Watch,"

02:24:43   when he was talking about playing music,

02:24:45   which implies to me that there is some amount

02:24:48   of traditional style flash capacity,

02:24:52   and then that makes me wonder,

02:24:53   will there be, like the iPhone and like the iPad,

02:24:56   different tiers of capacities?

02:24:58   - Yeah, so the iPhone doesn't tell you how much RAM it's in,

02:25:01   the iWatch doesn't tell you how much flash.

02:25:03   The flash storage is adequate.

02:25:06   What car maker is it?

02:25:06   (laughing)

02:25:07   - That's Rolls, isn't it?

02:25:08   - There you go.

02:25:09   - Even I knew that one.

02:25:10   Finally, a reference all three of us knew.

02:25:12   - Everyone gets it and no one in the audience got it.

02:25:14   - Nope, not at all.

02:25:15   - Of course.

02:25:16   I think we're gonna learn more about this

02:25:20   over the coming months.

02:25:20   Presumably they're gonna launch an SDK,

02:25:22   I would guess probably January.

02:25:24   Based on what they've said,

02:25:26   the way they describe how the software works,

02:25:27   some of the little wording they've used here and there

02:25:29   in the keynote that I've heard back and everything else,

02:25:33   I think the most likely arrangement here

02:25:35   is that the apps mostly run on the phone

02:25:39   and the apps that run on the watch

02:25:40   are extensions of phone apps.

02:25:42   They're like the iOS 8 extensions.

02:25:44   - Yeah, that's just a packaging detail.

02:25:45   like the bottom line is you're transferring binaries

02:25:48   to the watch by way of the phone,

02:25:50   by way of the app store in a bundle.

02:25:51   They get on there, they have to be stored somewhere.

02:25:53   - Right, and if you want to like add or delete apps,

02:25:56   you probably do that from the phone.

02:25:58   You know, it's probably just like

02:25:59   every other iOS 8 extension.

02:26:01   - Quick aside, what did you think of the

02:26:02   quote unquote springboard?

02:26:04   - I loved it, I thought it was great.

02:26:06   - It seems to me to be not too easy to use

02:26:10   in so far as all those tap targets looked really small.

02:26:14   - Well that's why you got the little zoomy thing.

02:26:16   Digital crown.

02:26:17   - Again, I highly recommend doing the paper printout

02:26:20   because when you see this, even on the biggest,

02:26:24   even on the big screen one, quote big,

02:26:26   it is such a small area.

02:26:27   I think it's gonna be challenging.

02:26:29   And I think it's the kind of thing where

02:26:31   we're not gonna know how easy or hard it is

02:26:33   until we actually try to use one

02:26:35   because it's gonna be very hard to predict.

02:26:37   - But that's why they do the magnifying effect.

02:26:38   Like the whole, I like, first of all,

02:26:40   I just like the aesthetic, right?

02:26:41   All I see is the little circles nestled onto each other.

02:26:43   But they're nestled into each other and the little ones that are in the outer gaps

02:26:47   magnify when they come towards the middle. So it's kind of like they're trying to give you big touch targets near the center of the

02:26:52   thing and then you just sort of slide around until what you want to tap is near the center and then as the maximum size and

02:26:57   yeah, it does look small, but you can use them but like I think most that well

02:27:02   they're also trying to give you a shortcut so things you commonly do. Side button gives you the people's faces,

02:27:05   replying or you know if something comes in a notification

02:27:08   you got the dial to pick what you want to do with it. Any sort of dialogue if you want to call them

02:27:12   that is three giant buttons to take up a third of the screen

02:27:14   each. So I don't think people are going to spend a lot of time

02:27:17   trying to hunt and peck little dots on that home screen.

02:27:20   I think obviously these are these are extensions, they I'm

02:27:23   sure they've run natively on the watch. Like it's probably like,

02:27:26   you know, binary compiled for the watch. But it's using the

02:27:29   extension mechanism to communicate back with the phone.

02:27:32   Well, it's not the extension mechanism is just a matter of

02:27:34   packaging communicating back to the phone. That's the that's the

02:27:37   question like because I

02:27:38   there's the shared data containers and everything.

02:27:40   There's there's some weirdness going on there. But well, they

02:27:42   - They can't have a shared data container

02:27:43   when they're running on a different device, right?

02:27:45   - Right, so how do they communicate?

02:27:46   - Right, so that's the question,

02:27:47   because I don't think you can do a handoff style

02:27:49   open a stream between the things.

02:27:50   So I think the phone has to be an island

02:27:53   in the same way that the entire iPhone used to be an island,

02:27:55   where it's like, you don't get to do anything

02:27:56   in the background.

02:27:57   If you want to do anything with push notifications,

02:28:01   there's one push notification service,

02:28:02   and we will dole out your things to you,

02:28:03   and that's not even, you know,

02:28:04   like it's gonna be incredible isolation.

02:28:07   Like the number of interactions with the phone,

02:28:09   what initiates them, and how long they'll last,

02:28:11   expect to be severely constrained so yeah because battery life is going to be brutal so they cannot

02:28:16   have like oh it's just like handoff you can just open up a screen and have an NS stream between

02:28:20   these two things and just talk you'll destroy the the the watch's battery that way so i expect some

02:28:25   kind of regimented structured way that this is the straw through which you have to sip this is

02:28:30   how many times you get to sip to communicate with the phone and then it will gradually open up just

02:28:34   like you know background tasks and everything have on the on main devices yeah something i was

02:28:39   wondering about as well is I could swear during the presentation there was a lot of talk of

02:28:43   communicating via your phone's Wi-Fi and maybe that was, maybe I'm misconstruing that, but I

02:28:50   wonder if, I don't remember the term, but the thing on a Mac or on a phone where you have two

02:28:57   simultaneous connections going, one to the quote unquote house Wi-Fi and one for like AirDrop,

02:29:03   Perhaps the watch will use that for, you know, doing a burst data transfer for

02:29:09   bigger things. Like, for example, if it's uploading a binary or something like that.

02:29:13   I mean, I would presume it uses Bluetooth low energy as much as possible, but perhaps

02:29:17   does this like Airplay-esque sort of dual Wi-Fi thing to transfer anything big?

02:29:23   Oh yeah. Does that like, I fully expect that the watch will only be communicating with your phone.

02:29:28   It will not be communicating with your house's Wi-Fi, even though the watch may have be Wi-Fi

02:29:33   capable in terms of like radio frequencies and stuff that it would totally do airdrop style ad hoc to your phone and

02:29:38   Only then when it needs that bandwidth and it can't get by with Bluetooth

02:29:41   Santa key just said Wi-Fi is confirmed. I'd love to is there do we have a source on that?

02:29:46   Oh, I guess Apple PR says it's saying it has Wi-Fi

02:29:48   Very much the last show where we talked about the little SD card or the iFi that goes into your

02:29:55   Camera and has you know and draws all its power from your SD card slot and yet has Wi-Fi then it talks to your computer

02:30:02   and everything like that. Like, I think they can get away with it, especially since I don't

02:30:06   think like they're not going to give us a number for talk time on on even though even

02:30:11   though the watch has a microphone, they don't expect you to be going on three hour phone

02:30:15   calls. And that just because it's probably awkward to hold your wrist up to it. Like

02:30:18   they expect you to fire off responses to text, send messages to people, do quick calls like

02:30:23   that. You know, like, I don't think they expect it to be sustained streaming audio and, you

02:30:29   certainly not video at this point, it's not even a camera on the watch, although you can go in the

02:30:34   other direction, right? But all of those things are not going to be good for battery and so it

02:30:39   seems like the whole idea with the watch is, you know, sort of on the go, pick up things,

02:30:45   looking at notifications, doing small things, and I think that's necessary for battery life. And

02:30:49   I guess we'll see for convenience, like does it feel weird to hold your wrist up? Can you

02:30:54   actually sustain a long conversation by talking into your wrist or does that just never

02:30:58   feel right, you know.

02:31:01   - Also, a real-time follow-up,

02:31:02   it does indeed confirm to have Wi-Fi only BG,

02:31:05   which is interesting, but it does have Wi-Fi

02:31:07   according to the Apple press release.

02:31:08   - Yeah, you wouldn't think it would need AC

02:31:10   'cause it's only got, the rumor for the storage

02:31:12   is like eight gig or something, I saw,

02:31:13   go by in the chat room.

02:31:14   But that's the interesting, so that S1 thing,

02:31:16   which is, what a great, you know,

02:31:18   we've got a bunch of stuff in here,

02:31:19   it's all encased in the thing for water resistance,

02:31:21   we're just gonna call the whole thing S1.

02:31:23   We have no idea what's in there, but you would assume,

02:31:26   first of all, we all assume it's an ARM chip,

02:31:28   even though they didn't say, right?

02:31:30   Is it like an old Apple,

02:31:33   sort of like we took the CPU core from the A4

02:31:35   and did it at 20 nanometers and put it like,

02:31:39   the thing that impressed me most about little demos

02:31:40   is that there's obviously a powerful enough GPU in there

02:31:43   to do those particle effects

02:31:44   and to do them in a way that's energy efficient,

02:31:46   because like when you draw those little doodles,

02:31:48   they wipe away with the particle effect.

02:31:49   Like that's all OpenGL stuff,

02:31:50   or not OpenGL, it's probably metal, right?

02:31:52   Silly, but anyway, same thing.

02:31:53   Like those flourishes mean they feel like that is okay to do power wise which means that it doesn't just have a reasonable CPU in there

02:32:02   But it's got a GPU that it meets some minimum standard granted the screen is super tiny. It doesn't need to push a lot of pixels

02:32:07   But that makes me really wonder what is inside that s1 if it's like a cut down GPU from it for

02:32:14   An iPhone 4 and a cut down CPU made it a smaller process

02:32:17   This is an entirely new chip that has nothing to do with any Apple a whatever chip that has ever been made

02:32:23   I'm really curious about the architectural details of what they could show into a watch.

02:32:26   I think it's also worth thinking about like, you know, how how does that like, you know,

02:32:32   the the flash guy mentioned about, you know, you can play music directly stored on it.

02:32:36   How much does it work without an iPhone? So I'm guessing one of the reasons it has Wi Fi is

02:32:42   because that way it can work with handoff properly within your house. Like if it if it only has

02:32:49   Bluetooth that means if your phone is more than you know 15 20 feet away

02:32:54   In most places it loses the connection

02:32:57   So if your phone is like in your bag and you're up walking around your house somewhere or your office somewhere and your phone's back

02:33:02   At your desk, you know, that's gonna be a problem. Well, but you can hand off to your Mac

02:33:05   I would imagine you come up to your Mac with the thing and handoff works as a combination of Bluetooth and Wi-Fi

02:33:10   So that's why I'm guessing that's why handoff it or that's why Wi-Fi is there

02:33:16   So and also like what do you think?

02:33:19   Like I'm I'm guessing that if you are totally gone from your iPhone

02:33:24   Let's say you go out on a jog around the around your neighborhood. You leave your iPhone at home. You leave the watch on

02:33:29   Right, that's obviously a situation they're considering because they're focusing so much on on fitness stuff

02:33:34   And I'm sure they know that not everybody brings their iPhone on a jog

02:33:38   so

02:33:40   I'm guessing it can work in a limited mode totally disconnected and it can probably it probably works like an iPod

02:33:46   where it can probably play a limited amount of music,

02:33:49   whatever it has stored on it.

02:33:50   That's why it can store music on it,

02:33:51   is for exercise reasons.

02:33:53   And as you're out, it basically becomes an iPod Nano

02:33:57   with a watch.

02:33:58   - Yeah.

02:33:59   - And then, although there's no headphone port,

02:34:00   so you're only doing Bluetooth headphones,

02:34:01   which is gonna kill the battery,

02:34:03   but that's another story.

02:34:05   But that's what I'm guessing.

02:34:07   I'm guessing third-party apps probably can't do anything

02:34:10   in that mode, or very little.

02:34:12   - I bet they can do something.

02:34:13   I mean, what would they even wanna do?

02:34:16   is if you don't have any communications

02:34:17   to the outside world, maybe you could provide visualizations

02:34:21   of information being picked up by the M8 or whatever,

02:34:23   the little, you know, something like,

02:34:25   something fitness related to make a better lap counter,

02:34:28   like all the type of things that you might want to watch

02:34:30   to do when you're on a run or something, or walking,

02:34:32   or even just like a compass app.

02:34:33   Can't do GPS 'cause it doesn't have,

02:34:36   I don't think you can do, it doesn't,

02:34:37   do we know if it has GPS?

02:34:38   I assume it doesn't, just for power reasons.

02:34:41   - They said in the keynote,

02:34:42   they said something like that it can use the GPS

02:34:46   from your iPhone, which I'm pretty sure

02:34:48   is pretty clearly saying it does not have its own GPS.

02:34:50   - Yeah, we're gonna have to wait many more years

02:34:53   before they can jam more crap into here,

02:34:54   but I assume if we go five years in the future,

02:34:57   this thing might actually have GPS,

02:34:58   it might actually have a camera, it might be thinner,

02:35:01   we just gotta wait for technology to catch up

02:35:03   for them to stick more of this stuff in there,

02:35:04   but for now, this is definitely,

02:35:06   they snuck it in early in the keynote

02:35:09   and then emphasized it more later,

02:35:11   this needs to go with your iPhone,

02:35:12   which I think is fine for this product in the beginning,

02:35:14   is who's going to buy a really expensive, fancy smartwatch.

02:35:18   They probably already have an iPhone anyway.

02:35:20   Well, and that's the thing.

02:35:22   If this does take off as a fashion item,

02:35:25   that's going to drive iPhone sales.

02:35:27   Because there's going to be some people out there

02:35:29   who have an Android phone who see this and want this.

02:35:31   Yeah.

02:35:32   Until and unless there can be an Android equivalent to this--

02:35:35   I know there's tons of Android smartwatches or whatever,

02:35:38   but I don't think any of them have

02:35:39   executed fashion-wise to the caliber

02:35:42   that this thing appears to be.

02:35:43   So if someone wants it as a fashion accessory,

02:35:46   they don't actually have a good Android-based alternative

02:35:50   that I think lives up to the fashion standards

02:35:52   set by this phone in terms of fit and finish,

02:35:54   and probably cache because of the popularity

02:35:57   of it and everything.

02:35:58   - And I think also it would,

02:36:00   I think it would probably be unlikely

02:36:02   to see something like this from the Android camp

02:36:04   anytime soon.

02:36:05   - Well, I'm sure we'll have some sort of

02:36:07   awful knockoff really quickly.

02:36:08   - Well, no, I'm saying, I'm like,

02:36:10   it's unlikely that we're gonna see

02:36:12   anyone else besides Apple make one that is this desirable

02:36:16   and cool in the fashion sense?

02:36:18   Like most people are not gonna be like,

02:36:20   oh I can't wait to get my, you know,

02:36:22   to wrap one of the new Motorola,

02:36:24   whatever is around my wrist.

02:36:25   - No, Samsung will make one that looks exactly identical.

02:36:28   So there's that going for it.

02:36:29   - Well one thing also, like if you've been reading

02:36:32   some of the tweets from people who know more

02:36:34   about manufacturing than we do,

02:36:36   some of the really basic traits of this

02:36:38   are just really hard to manufacture.

02:36:40   Like Apple can do it because they are so advanced

02:36:42   in that field.

02:36:43   They have such advanced manufacturing techniques

02:36:45   and so much power and margin to use them.

02:36:47   Whereas not everybody has that.

02:36:50   And like somebody was saying, even just like the design

02:36:54   of the crown, it requires some insane lathe

02:36:58   to make the little things and make everything right.

02:37:01   And even like the design of the latches that'll latch

02:37:04   onto the band and how even those are hard to make

02:37:07   in that specific shape and with that kind of precision

02:37:09   everything. Regular people don't make those distinctions though. Like the

02:37:13   Samsung phones are not made to the same fit and finish that Apple phones are, but

02:37:16   most people don't notice. But high-end watch nerds certainly will, but I

02:37:20   don't know, I really don't know how this watch will be reacted to by a high-end

02:37:23   watch nerd. Yes, I haven't read that article that's been going around today

02:37:25   about the high-end watch nerd talking about the Apple Watch, just haven't gotten

02:37:28   around to it. We'll put it in the show notes so you guys can read it

02:37:31   maybe before I do. Okay, so we should probably try to wrap this sometime

02:37:37   before Friday. One of the things I wanted to quickly touch on is the kind of interactive

02:37:44   and what are they, intimate was the word they used, which I don't know about that, but the

02:37:49   interactive bits that you can do with the watch. So when you can like draw little doodles and you

02:37:54   can do the heartbeat thing, which I think that's more creepy than not, but I'm not really sure.

02:38:02   But what I just noticed, which I don't recall them saying during the keynote, is that this is a full-on

02:38:08   Dick Tracy watch because it has a walkie-talkie on it. And I'm reading from Apple's website,

02:38:13   "For a fun alternative to a phone call, use the built-in speaker and microphone to trade spur-of-the-moment

02:38:19   sound bites with friends." I wonder if it really is a walkie-talkie. Like, again, getting back to

02:38:23   Marco saying, "No phone. Take all the phones out. Two people with iWatches. Can they walkie-talkie

02:38:27   with Apple watches? Sorry. Can they walkie-talkie to each other?" I can't imagine that being the

02:38:32   the case because they could do ad hoc Wi-Fi between the watches or something

02:38:35   and it worked as well as airdrop anyway that's like that was the throwing stuff

02:38:43   against the wall part of the keynote to like oh and it does this and it does

02:38:46   that and who knows maybe these things will be useful lots of you know try it

02:38:50   to see are is there usefulness hampered by the fact that they have to be tied to

02:38:54   the phone and if I have the phone what I would have just use it to text the

02:38:57   person because you're not doing text input on the you know right the watch

02:39:00   and everything so we'll see. Here's a really basic question. This thing is

02:39:04   supposedly slightly water resistant right? Yep. I mean I would assume like a

02:39:08   mass market watch has to be somewhat water resistant so you can like you know if

02:39:11   you're like washing the dishes and it gets splashed. It's splash

02:39:14   resistant but it cannot immerse it. The charging thing on the back and the

02:39:18   general sealed nature of this thing looks like it is right where you would

02:39:23   expect a fancy watch to be and that it's like okay it's not a waterproof watch

02:39:28   but we'll do our best to keep water out of the thing.

02:39:31   - To go back to the experience,

02:39:33   the digital crown seemed like a clever idea

02:39:36   to solve this problem,

02:39:37   which we talked about a little bit earlier.

02:39:38   What didn't make sense to me, having never touched one,

02:39:42   was why is the home button pressing the crown?

02:39:45   It seemed to me to be much more logical

02:39:47   that pressing the crown is like okay,

02:39:50   and pressing that big, huge button below the crown

02:39:54   is the home button.

02:39:55   - This is like mute and rotation lock all over again.

02:39:58   I'm sure the Apple Canon will change its nine.

02:40:00   Like the thing that baffles me

02:40:01   is so much about the digital crown is like,

02:40:03   that would have been the logical place

02:40:04   to try to cram touch ID, but I guess it's too small.

02:40:07   Like there's no touch ID on this thing.

02:40:08   - Well, but it's never leaving your person ever in theory.

02:40:11   - I know, but like if you're gonna pay with it,

02:40:13   like when you pay with the phone,

02:40:14   you have to touch ID authenticate,

02:40:15   but when you pay with the watch, you don't?

02:40:18   I don't.

02:40:18   - Yes, somebody was saying how like it'll,

02:40:20   like it'll use the skin sensor on the bottom

02:40:22   to like see if it's still attached to you or whatever.

02:40:24   But that sounds, that might change, we'll see.

02:40:27   - Yeah, that could be, we don't know

02:40:28   how that authentication works and yeah.

02:40:30   It's kind of like they could take it off your wrist

02:40:32   if they could replace the little,

02:40:34   I was gonna do an Indiana Jones reference, but anyway.

02:40:37   - I've seen those movies.

02:40:39   - Yeah, I think it, you know when he replaces the idol

02:40:41   with the sandbag, like are you gonna take the wrist,

02:40:43   the watch off the wrist, but you have to make it think

02:40:45   it's still up against skin or whatever.

02:40:47   - Yeah, I thought it was interesting too,

02:40:49   like Casey, I think your point is very valid

02:40:50   about how I think clicking the wheel should be okay.

02:40:55   And I think they only have two buttons on this watch.

02:40:59   So obviously this is at an extreme premium,

02:41:02   similar to the iPhone, there's only two buttons.

02:41:05   I think it's interesting that the second button,

02:41:07   rather than being home, the second button is like,

02:41:11   bring up your list of friends.

02:41:12   It shows you where their focus is.

02:41:16   Their focus is on making this a very social device,

02:41:19   as opposed to show me more notifications

02:41:22   or go launch threes.

02:41:25   Like this is very much like,

02:41:27   this is meant to be a very social device.

02:41:30   And honestly, one part of that

02:41:31   I thought was a little bit weird is like,

02:41:34   I'm probably only gonna have my wife on that list,

02:41:37   first of all.

02:41:38   Like, I don't think I wanna see anyone else's heartbeat.

02:41:40   - You can leave a solitary life,

02:41:42   but other people who are going amongst,

02:41:44   like think of a teenager who's got all their friends

02:41:47   are gonna be on there, right?

02:41:48   If you have teenagers, rich teenagers, fine.

02:41:50   - Yeah, right.

02:41:51   Their friends are gonna hate them for having an iWatch.

02:41:53   It's interesting with the social aspects of it

02:41:55   because I agree that's something you want to use it for,

02:41:57   but there's no text input.

02:41:58   And so that's why they have like the animated emoji

02:42:01   and the little drawings.

02:42:02   They want you to use this thing to sort of quickly

02:42:04   communicate with people,

02:42:05   with the tapping and all that other stuff.

02:42:06   They want you to use it for that,

02:42:08   but they know how much people love texting.

02:42:09   It's like, well, you can't text in this.

02:42:11   We're not going to throw up a little keyboard.

02:42:12   You can probably do, you can do dictation.

02:42:14   You can talk to Siri,

02:42:16   but what can you do without doing any of that stuff?

02:42:18   Well, you can draw little pictures,

02:42:19   which I think is clever.

02:42:20   You can do the little tapping,

02:42:22   The little animated emoji is like fun.

02:42:24   They're trying to say, we want you to communicate

02:42:28   in ways other than typing to each other.

02:42:30   And thus far the world has said,

02:42:31   we want to text each other like crazy.

02:42:32   So this will be an interesting challenge to see

02:42:35   if they can convince the world

02:42:37   to use these alternate means of communication

02:42:41   for more than just, hey, I just got an iWatch,

02:42:42   just play with all these novelty things

02:42:43   and then get bored of it.

02:42:45   - You know, the first thing I thought of

02:42:46   when I saw the like tap feature,

02:42:49   so you can just like tap on it

02:42:51   and you can do it many times in a row or just once.

02:42:54   Immediately I thought of Journey

02:42:56   and inventing your own little language.

02:42:58   - I thought you were gonna say the Yo app.

02:43:00   I tweeted the Apple Watch and the Yo app built in

02:43:02   because that's basically like, it is like you want to,

02:43:05   what is tapping do?

02:43:06   Like you just wanna get someone's attention like,

02:43:07   "Hey, hey," and a little tap on their wrist, right?

02:43:10   And the Journey thing is like communicating with glyphs.

02:43:12   A lot of people said that,

02:43:13   but the key of the glyphs in Journey

02:43:16   is that you don't get to pick what yours is.

02:43:18   Whereas with the little drawing pictures

02:43:20   and making little language within each other,

02:43:23   as many, many people, including me, tweeted,

02:43:25   this is an opportunity for them to let

02:43:28   a million rudimentary drawings of penises bloom,

02:43:30   because that's all people are gonna draw on this thing,

02:43:32   is send each other little tiny, terrible fallacies

02:43:35   that they drew with their finger on their phone.

02:43:37   - Naturally. - Or on their watch.

02:43:39   I wonder, maybe we can bring back graffiti.

02:43:41   - Oh, that's interesting.

02:43:43   - Yeah, they didn't bring that up,

02:43:44   but it's got, like, they just totally did not want you

02:43:46   to do text input on this thing,

02:43:48   like, unless you're talking to Siri, like, that's it.

02:43:49   They do not want you to draw letters.

02:43:51   They don't want you to type letters.

02:43:52   Like, how would you feel about manipulating

02:43:54   a little 3D happy face and then sending that to somebody?

02:43:56   Does that make you feel good?

02:43:58   How about a hand that you can pose in different positions?

02:44:00   No, it won't make a middle finger.

02:44:01   Maybe a third party app will do that for you.

02:44:03   - Which, by the way, I did see somebody

02:44:05   with a square or rectangular shaped Android watch

02:44:09   just a few weeks ago trying to type out

02:44:10   like a text message on it,

02:44:11   and it looked absolutely ridiculous.

02:44:13   - No, no, it's not good.

02:44:15   - All right, anything else on the watch?

02:44:17   - Well, there's a, I mean, I think we should save

02:44:19   for next week, questions such as why,

02:44:22   which is a good question, I think.

02:44:24   - I agree.

02:44:25   - It has been foretold, that's why.

02:44:27   - Yeah. (laughs)

02:44:29   - So it is written, so let it be, I mangled that quote.

02:44:31   Does anyone know that quote?

02:44:32   You two don't know it, forget it.

02:44:33   - Nope. - No.

02:44:34   You knew that before you even asked.

02:44:36   All right, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.

02:44:39   For, they probably didn't even listen to the whole thing.

02:44:42   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.

02:44:44   - Hover.

02:44:45   - Warby Parker and Squarespace.

02:44:48   and we will see you next week.

02:44:49   (upbeat music)

02:44:52   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

02:44:54   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

02:44:57   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:44:59   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:45:00   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

02:45:01   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:45:03   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

02:45:05   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

02:45:08   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:45:09   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:45:10   ♪ It was accidental ♪

02:45:12   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:45:13   ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm ♪

02:45:18   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:45:27   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M E-N-T Marco Arment

02:45:34   S-I-R-A-C USA, Syracuse

02:45:39   It's accidental (It's accidental)

02:45:42   They didn't mean to (accidental)

02:45:46   An accidental tech podcast for so long

02:45:52   I think people who listen to this will be disappointed that you two didn't try to make me feel bad about not going but I

02:45:57   Think you both correctly understood that nothing that happened during this event changes any of the things they went into me not going

02:46:04   Although I will say when that stream kept cutting out on TV

02:46:09   We're like we were like I bet Syracuse was kicking him kicking himself now

02:46:12   Oh, we didn't have to say anything because the internet was attacking you and it was wonderful

02:46:17   I know but like but see first of all

02:46:19   Like I said, I didn't I always had one stream that was working

02:46:21   Sometimes it was an SD which is kind of disappointing but it totally evened out by the time the watch got there

02:46:26   So the streaming wasn't fine

02:46:27   But none of that makes up and I can't tell you that what did I feel after the event was over?

02:46:32   Relief that I didn't now have to fly home

02:46:34   You could have had like the hands-on area. You could have told us more about the watch. No, like I totally I am

02:46:41   Totally not disappointed. I'm not disappointed. They didn't get to see you - I don't really care like it's just everything

02:46:46   I mean, I'm disappointed.

02:46:48   I was disappointed they didn't get to see my friends

02:46:50   who went to the thing,

02:46:51   but I totally do not regret my decision.

02:46:54   I made the right one.

02:46:54   There's pretty much almost nothing they could have done.

02:46:58   Here's what they could have done.

02:46:59   If they gave everyone in the audience a Mac Pro,

02:47:00   I would have regretted not going.

02:47:01   - HFS Plus, dead.

02:47:03   - No, I would not have regretted not being there for that.

02:47:04   It's like, unless there's something I could have gotten

02:47:07   by being there, whether it's an experience

02:47:10   or like an actual thing or something like that,

02:47:13   and looking at the iWatches,

02:47:15   I guess it's like the fifth time I've said it.

02:47:17   Sorry guys.

02:47:17   Looking at the Apple Watches and everything,

02:47:19   I'll see them eventually.

02:47:20   I'm not like, it's not,

02:47:21   like this is exactly what I thought the event was gonna be.

02:47:23   New iPhones and the watch and I guess the payment stuff.

02:47:27   Yeah, it's fine.

02:47:28   - The best thing was when U2 comes out,

02:47:30   'cause don't you like U2 a lot?

02:47:32   - Yeah, but not like, I mean,

02:47:34   you're gonna say only the earlier stuff.

02:47:36   - Yeah. (laughs)

02:47:37   - I used to follow them a lot more than I do.

02:47:41   Now they're kind of an aging band,

02:47:43   the musical style they've been doing lately is not particularly to my tastes in their in the grand

02:47:49   scheme of things. I was glad I got the album for free. I mean, I probably would have bought that

02:47:53   album anyway. I still buy the albums when they come out. But I think you were better off like

02:47:58   anybody who likes you too. When they first started playing, I was like, Oh man, Syracuse is gonna

02:48:03   hate that he missed this. Then after they played and they were still on stage and Tim Cook comes

02:48:08   back out and does that horribly awkward skit with them.

02:48:10   Oh, so bad.

02:48:12   I think anybody who likes either you two or Tim Cook or Apple or anything good in the

02:48:18   world is better off not having seen that.

02:48:21   I think Bono did pretty well considering this is not his job.

02:48:25   Like he doesn't know how to come up and like he thinks they have to say we're going to

02:48:28   do this thing and like, you know, Tim Cook was more embarrassing because like he seems

02:48:32   a little silly and starstruck and red faced and flustered and it's like,

02:48:36   Well, in the the finger touch was just the icing on the awkward cake.

02:48:42   Yeah, when I rewatched the thing, I did not watch that part again because it's not.

02:48:46   It's a little bit too painful. And everyone who was there said YouTube was way too loud.

02:48:50   So we actually got a better experience of that not being there either. I didn't like that song

02:48:54   I played though. Yeah, I think I'm going to treat it like most Apple events where they have a

02:48:58   closing band where the music is the end of the event. Like that's it. Like that's like usually

02:49:04   when the musical guest starts playing all the live blogs stop and they say all right that's it

02:49:08   we're we'll see you later nothing's gonna happen after this if you two well even then i was gonna

02:49:13   say if you two was in like the press area afterwards mingling and i could have hung out with them but

02:49:17   really that's not gonna happen either so it's too many what if you if you could if you saw you know

02:49:23   the edge you said that like you said it like butthead the edge

02:49:32   - Yeah, what would you ask in a setting like that?

02:49:37   Like, do you have like a prepared questions?

02:49:39   - Yeah, you can't.

02:49:39   Like in a setting like that, you can't.

02:49:41   Like people are just like, you know,

02:49:43   they'd have to come over for a nice dinner.

02:49:44   We would chat.

02:49:45   [ Silence ]