81: You Left Your Money in a Bank


00:00:00   Yes, don't ask the question if you're not looking at the file.

00:00:04   [BEEPING]

00:00:05   All right, so let's start with some follow up.

00:00:10   To begin, we have some follow up about the TiVo OTA,

00:00:14   or OTA, if you're Marco.

00:00:16   It's OTA.

00:00:18   My apologies.

00:00:18   The OTA.

00:00:20   Yeah, this feedback was from Joseph.

00:00:22   Last week, we talked about who the OTA might be good for.

00:00:25   I said, get it.

00:00:26   Try it out if you don't like it.

00:00:28   Don't stop paying your $15 a month

00:00:30   Joseph points out that Tivo's require a one-year commitment of service and as a 30-day money-back guarantee in which you can cancel in return

00:00:38   It but you can't keep it for a couple months to see if you like it

00:00:41   I didn't I didn't actually check whether this is true, but I trust Joseph. He seems like a trustworthy guy with a

00:00:47   Loan first name with no last name. So there you go. He also says that

00:00:53   Over the air is not a wasteland of just four networks as in San Francisco insert Dan Benjamin, San Francisco rant here

00:00:59   There is over 90 distinct channels of content available over the air

00:01:03   I said so some of its like religious or shopping but there's tons of that stuff on cable, too

00:01:07   So apparently some places actually have lots of channels coming over the air

00:01:11   Yeah, but like what kind of channels like is there anything you'd actually want to watch see that's the thing. So

00:01:15   Aaron and I have season tickets to the University of Virginia football team and

00:01:21   we've gotten pretty serious about the tailgates with a mutual friend of ours Brian and

00:01:26   he brings a generator and we bring a TV and we bring an over-the-air HD antenna and

00:01:32   In Charlottesville, Virginia, which we've all established that you two think is basically the middle of nowhere

00:01:38   Actually, it's past the middle of nowhere into straight-up nothingness and here in Richmond as well because I've tried the antenna here

00:01:45   We get I think Fox CBS

00:01:48   NBC ABC I

00:01:50   Do know we get the CW which was I was a little surprised to see but that's basically it and then all the all the

00:01:58   Standard channels like Fox and ABC and whatnot they have like two or three sub channels like weather

00:02:04   Which just shows the weather non-stop. It's like a dashboard if you will and

00:02:09   And that's pretty much all we get so I'm sure there are places that get

00:02:17   Plenty of channels, but I tell you what this is where I live is not one of those places

00:02:22   All right, do we have any other follow-up? Yes, don't ask the question if you're not looking at the file

00:02:28   So next is from Nate boating I'm doing well he sent us a

00:02:36   Link to a tumblr dedicated to frayed lightning cables. It is appropriately named frayed lightning cables dot tumblr.com

00:02:44   In fact, it has more than just frayed lightning cables on it,

00:02:47   but a lot of these things,

00:02:48   I think they were chewed by animals.

00:02:50   I have no, there's no promise

00:02:52   about what made these things fray.

00:02:53   I think it's just a tumbler of frayed lightning cables.

00:02:55   But if you wanted to see a bunch of frayed lightning cables,

00:02:57   you know, rule 34 and all, go for it.

00:03:01   - All right.

00:03:03   - Yeah, next bit of follow-up is about Amazon buying Twitch

00:03:08   and how Google was, looked like they were interested,

00:03:11   but then bailed out and people didn't quite know why.

00:03:13   Here is a rumor sent to us by Hunter on Twitter

00:03:15   saying the rumor is that the breakup fee was too high

00:03:19   relative to the risk of regulators killing it.

00:03:21   So if Google was going to buy them,

00:03:24   normally as part of the deal they say,

00:03:25   okay, well, we agreed to buy you,

00:03:27   and it turns out that the US government

00:03:29   doesn't let us buy you for antitrust reasons or whatever.

00:03:31   There's some fee that will still pay you

00:03:35   as part of this deal,

00:03:36   and apparently Twitch wanted a breakup fee that was too high.

00:03:39   And according to this rumor,

00:03:40   this is not confirmed or anything.

00:03:41   But anyway, that explains why Twitch might have accepted

00:03:44   an offer from Amazon that is reportedly lower

00:03:47   than what Google was willing to offer for them,

00:03:50   because there's more to the deal than just,

00:03:52   the number is also what you're paying in cash versus stock,

00:03:55   and also things like breakup fees.

00:03:56   So this is a plausible rumor about why Twitch

00:04:00   might have gone with Amazon instead of Google.

00:04:03   - All right.

00:04:03   - Look at that, we breezed your follow-up.

00:04:05   - I know. - It's gonna be a short show,

00:04:06   forget it.

00:04:07   - I'm impressed.

00:04:08   All right, let's start with something cool,

00:04:09   and then we'll get into the real meat of the episode.

00:04:12   - We are sponsored this week,

00:04:13   once again by our friends at Harry's.

00:04:16   I don't think I ever actually spelled it last time,

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00:04:26   You know, like with the apostrophe,

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00:05:01   And this is not a coincidence because one of the founders

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00:05:22   The other founder, Andy, he was motivated to address shaving

00:05:26   because he went to a drug store one day

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00:05:30   and he had to ask for help and wait around

00:05:32   for more than 10 minutes for someone to come unlock

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00:05:37   And he was eventually permitted to buy a four pack of blades

00:05:40   and some shaving cream.

00:05:41   And for all this great privilege of, you know,

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00:05:44   and having a bunch of time wasted,

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00:05:52   Harry's makes amazing German engineered blades.

00:05:55   They care so much about the quality of these blades.

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00:06:02   They went to them like, you make great blades,

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00:06:08   Harry's is focused on providing men and women a great shaving experience for a

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00:06:26   what you've been paying if you've been getting a good deal. So this is you know

00:06:30   fantastic price and I tried these blades they sent me they sent me the big

00:06:34   starter kit and everything that I tried these blades and they're really good I

00:06:37   was I was surprised you know I I was worried that I might I might like try it

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00:07:35   Thank you very much to Harry's for sponsoring our show once again.

00:07:40   So Marco, when you were big into PCs, did you read Tom's hardware very often?

00:07:45   Of course. Yeah, I remember back when they made Intel recall the 1.1 gigahertz Pentium.

00:07:52   And Jon, I assume you were at least tangentially aware, if not a reader yourself.

00:07:56   No, well I knew about it, but I didn't read it.

00:07:59   Okay.

00:08:00   So, Tom's Hardware for Marco and myself was a really important resource and website, I

00:08:06   don't know, 10 years ago-ish, maybe even 15 now, to talk about the real nitty-gritty about

00:08:13   hardware for the PC world.

00:08:16   And to me, is it AnandTech or AnandTech?

00:08:20   I'm probably pronouncing it wrong both ways.

00:08:22   Do we know which one it is?

00:08:24   - John, you are in charge of pronunciation on the show.

00:08:26   - I got nothing on this one.

00:08:27   I have met the man in person,

00:08:29   still don't know how to pronounce it.

00:08:31   - So AnandTech seemed to me anyway,

00:08:34   to be very much the Tom's hardware

00:08:37   of the Apple world in 2014.

00:08:39   And if that doesn't sound like a compliment, it should,

00:08:42   because that is a huge compliment.

00:08:44   And apparently, now I'm gonna say Anand,

00:08:47   so I'm totally inconsistent, but Anand has left.

00:08:50   And as it turns out, he's going somewhere very interesting.

00:08:53   He's off to Apple.

00:08:55   So Marco, what do you think about all this?

00:08:58   - I think, I mean, I'm honestly, I'm disappointed

00:09:01   that we're not gonna get to read any more

00:09:03   of his awesome reviews because what he, you know,

00:09:05   like I compared him to John.

00:09:06   Like what John does for software,

00:09:09   and Ann would do for hardware.

00:09:10   And his insights on things like CPU design

00:09:14   and like where PC hardware was going

00:09:18   and what was becoming important and what wasn't.

00:09:20   And he was really just incredibly good

00:09:24   at both writing about this stuff,

00:09:26   at seeing what's here, seeing what's coming,

00:09:29   and explaining very, very complex things about,

00:09:32   you know, things like chip design,

00:09:34   you know, explaining that in a way that makes it relevant

00:09:37   to the readers of these reviews.

00:09:38   And so we don't know what he's doing at Apple.

00:09:41   We also know, like, they hired, is it Brian Klug?

00:09:44   Is that right?

00:09:45   - I believe that's right.

00:09:46   They hired Brian Klug, who was also a writer at OnanTech.

00:09:49   So Apple apparently hired him very quietly a few months back.

00:09:53   And so anyway, so now they got both of them.

00:09:57   It would be interesting to know what department

00:09:59   they're even working for.

00:10:01   I don't know what their qualifications are exactly.

00:10:03   I would venture a guess that--

00:10:05   I don't know much about Brian, but I

00:10:06   would venture a guess that Onan probably

00:10:08   has enough background to work on the chip design department.

00:10:11   But I really don't know.

00:10:13   Yeah, that's the question.

00:10:14   Like when he posted on the site that he was just retiring,

00:10:17   he didn't say where he was going.

00:10:19   He just said like, "I'm retiring from tech journalism,"

00:10:21   which is different than, "I'm leaving the website

00:10:23   that bears my name."

00:10:24   Like he didn't just say that,

00:10:25   so it's not like some power struggle

00:10:26   or something with the thing.

00:10:27   He wasn't just leaving the website to go for something

00:10:29   that said, "I'm retiring from tech journalism."

00:10:31   And my initial interpretation of that was,

00:10:34   he wanted to do something else, right?

00:10:36   Because he says retiring from tech journalism,

00:10:38   that means he's not going to show up writing reviews

00:10:40   of hardware on some other website.

00:10:41   He's not gonna start his own website with a different name.

00:10:43   you know, like that he was done with that

00:10:45   and he wanted to do something else, which is fine.

00:10:48   And then I tweeted the day like,

00:10:52   here are the list of companies

00:10:53   that should be trying to hire him.

00:10:54   And when I was doing that, I was trying to think like,

00:10:57   what value could he bring to a company

00:11:00   and to what company is he the most valuable?

00:11:03   And the top of my list was Intel

00:11:06   because aside from all his reviews and everything

00:11:08   and in all of his contact

00:11:10   with these various hardware vendors,

00:11:13   He definitely has some frustration with Intel,

00:11:15   like we all do, like trying to figure out

00:11:17   are they going to be, you know,

00:11:20   when they sold all their arm holdings to get rid of,

00:11:23   you know, they stopped trying to make arm chips

00:11:25   to do their own thing, the whole x86 on mobile

00:11:30   and how that's going and the various software initiatives

00:11:33   they occasionally have, are they just gonna be a fab,

00:11:35   are they gonna continue to sell chips?

00:11:38   He had interesting things to say about what he thought

00:11:40   Intel should be doing with their business

00:11:43   and how competitive their products actually are

00:11:45   and could potentially be in the future.

00:11:47   And I'm sure he told Intel all these things

00:11:50   and he told the same things to Nvidia,

00:11:51   which was another company I listed,

00:11:53   and a bunch of other people.

00:11:54   You know, it's kind of like an outsider's perspective

00:11:56   of like, look, inside the Intel bubble,

00:11:58   you maybe think you're doing the right thing,

00:12:00   but from my perspective, you are, you know,

00:12:02   you should be doing X, Y, and Z and you're not,

00:12:04   or you should do this sooner or that later,

00:12:06   or you should acquire this company

00:12:07   or start doing that or stop doing that.

00:12:09   So it seems like he had a lot of insight into their business and that would be valuable to them.

00:12:13   And same thing with the other companies, because that's what he'd be in contact with these hardware vendors

00:12:17   and he would meet with them and they would explain what their upcoming line of things are

00:12:21   and then he would write about it and presumably he would tell them to their faces like, you know,

00:12:26   "I think you should do this and this other company's doing that" and you know, like just giving his opinion,

00:12:30   like what he wrote on his website about all these issues.

00:12:33   Big picture things, not just like "let me tell you how many adders should be in your next CPU"

00:12:37   but just like, you know, a grand scheme of things strategy.

00:12:41   So then when he said, when it came out

00:12:44   that he was going to Apple, I didn't put Apple on a list

00:12:46   because I thought that of all the things he could offer,

00:12:51   Apple probably had existing people doing those same things

00:12:55   and didn't seem as like sort of rudderless, you know,

00:12:58   or as sort of flailing as some of these other companies,

00:13:01   like Apple seems to have it stuffed together, right?

00:13:04   But Apple did hire him, which again shows

00:13:05   they probably have their stuff together

00:13:06   more than the other companies, because the other companies probably don't even know they need someone like him,

00:13:09   but Apple does know that having someone like him is valuable.

00:13:11   And I was trying to think what he could do for Apple. A lot of people guessed that he would have something to do with

00:13:17   press relations, and he certainly does have a heck of a lot of experience at the interface between technology companies and press,

00:13:23   but he's always been on the other side of it. So I don't quite see what he would do for Apple on the...

00:13:28   I don't know. I mean, maybe... I think he has expertise in that area that could be used,

00:13:33   but I

00:13:35   Don't know if that would interest him. I don't know enough about his interest chip stuff

00:13:38   I don't know if he's ever designed a chip. He's got opinions on chip

00:13:41   He knows a lot about architecture in the broad level but down to the nitty-gritty

00:13:44   I don't know if he has that depth of knowledge about

00:13:47   You know laying out

00:13:50   Laying out circuits or deciding like I you know and and maybe you don't have to maybe it can be a more

00:13:55   You know an advisory supervisor role there

00:13:58   I really don't know enough about a skill set to even guess of what what department he could be in

00:14:03   It's kind of in the same situation that I always imagined myself to be in which is why Apple will never hire me

00:14:09   It's like the only job. I'm calling like to do at Apple is to tell everyone what to do

00:14:13   Those jobs are already filled by people who have earned the right to do that and not just by saying well, I have an opinion

00:14:19   Yeah, well, that's why you don't get that job, right?

00:14:21   But he has more than just an opinion. Like I think he has actual insights and has much more, you know

00:14:27   He has close contact with so many vendors in the hardware industry and such in-depth knowledge of all of their products that that

00:14:33   That is valuable to them. And so it seems like he would have to be in a position of

00:14:37   Some considerable authority like you're not gonna just make him be as simple as another cog in a machine

00:14:43   Like he left the website that he found it when he was 14 that has his name on it

00:14:47   so I think he's in a position where he's going to be able to make big moves and

00:14:54   be an important part of Apple's organization and I find that exciting.

00:14:58   Yeah, I hope so. So in the chat room, Pavan

00:15:02   linked to this thing we'll put in the show notes, this Apple Jobs

00:15:06   entry on their job site where the

00:15:10   job title is "Performance Marketing Analyst" and it says

00:15:14   "in this role you will develop test methodologies, test Apple devices and competitive

00:15:18   products, analyze test results and help prepare performance data to support

00:15:22   product managers in creating compelling performance stories

00:15:25   for product launch materials.

00:15:27   Okay, so anyway, what that all basically means is

00:15:31   he would be doing like reviews and comparisons

00:15:34   for internal use to put in marketing materials.

00:15:37   I cannot see him leaving his own site to do this.

00:15:41   Like this doesn't seem like it's a big enough cog

00:15:43   in an important enough part of the machine.

00:15:45   Like this--

00:15:46   - He's a little overqualified for that,

00:15:47   don't you feel like?

00:15:48   But on the other hand, Apple is the kind of company

00:15:51   get smart enough to get someone who's overqualified

00:15:53   to fill it because like, that position doesn't necessarily

00:15:56   have to be as kind of grunt worky as it seems

00:15:58   because you, it could influence the design

00:16:01   of future products.

00:16:02   Like it's, you know, from the outside,

00:16:04   and I can say like, oh well, here's what they did

00:16:07   with this CPU and this GPU combination

00:16:09   and really they would have ended up with a better platform

00:16:11   if they'd done X, Y, and Z,

00:16:12   but he can't actually make that happen.

00:16:13   Whereas if he's doing comparison tests

00:16:15   of like prototype hardware inside the company

00:16:17   and can say, okay, well, for this one,

00:16:19   you should tweak this, that, and the other thing,

00:16:20   for the next chip, I think these guys are gonna do X, Y, and Z that like he can actually

00:16:23   influence the roadmap as opposed to just commenting on it from the outside. So that is potentially

00:16:29   not this exact position, but like the head of all the people doing that is potentially

00:16:33   a powerful position within the organization because you can influence the hardware roadmap

00:16:37   of Apple's products. And that I mean, you know, that that's gonna be beneficial to Apple.

00:16:42   And I think it might be interesting to him. Yeah, I definitely think, you know, like if

00:16:46   if there is a chance that he's actually gonna be involved

00:16:48   in component selection, maybe, what you were saying,

00:16:52   trying to influence, not necessarily designing the chips,

00:16:55   but helping Apple figure out what kind of GPU

00:16:59   should they be looking for from PowerVR or whatever

00:17:02   for the next iDevice or whatever.

00:17:05   He could definitely be on that team.

00:17:07   I would imagine he's very much qualified

00:17:08   to do that sort of thing, but who knows?

00:17:11   This is very much a mystery, and I have a feeling

00:17:14   it might be a while before we even figure out, you know, what exactly he's doing.

00:17:19   Yeah, and the thing that's interesting to me about it is, he was kind of the big cheese

00:17:24   in this Apple bubble, or when it comes to hardware-related things. I mean, I think he

00:17:30   was certainly an extremely important person in the community, and if—I mean, maybe I'm

00:17:36   just an egotistic jerk, but if I were to—if I were Anand and I was thinking whether or

00:17:42   or not I should go to Apple, it would take a lot for me to say, "You know what? I'm

00:17:47   going to hang up my boots," or whatever the phrase is I'm thinking of, "and I'm

00:17:52   going to go work in a place that usually doesn't really smile upon being forthcoming and being

00:18:01   very public with what you do." And his whole existence up until this point was being forthcoming

00:18:07   and being public about what he did. And so whatever it is, it's got to have scratched

00:18:11   an itch that an Antec and Ontec couldn't scratch before.

00:18:16   So like you guys said, I'm extremely interested in seeing where he ends up.

00:18:22   And especially if he does end up in engineering, what is that going to mean?

00:18:27   I'm not sure what his background is.

00:18:28   It certainly sounds, the way he writes, it sounds like he's either got a formal or

00:18:32   an extensive informal education in engineering.

00:18:35   Like I said, I don't know his particular background.

00:18:37   But whatever it is, it's certainly an interesting move.

00:18:42   - Chat room says that Brian Klug is an optical engineer,

00:18:46   which you might've picked up by listening to the podcast

00:18:48   where he talks about cameras.

00:18:49   So I also don't know where he's working,

00:18:52   but if he is actually a trained optical engineer,

00:18:55   it makes sense that he might have something to do

00:18:57   with cameras in Apple's devices.

00:18:59   - Yeah, I mean, these are all very important areas.

00:19:02   So I think it's, you know,

00:19:03   if these guys wanted to keep doing press

00:19:06   or review type stuff, they would have kept doing that

00:19:09   on an Antec.

00:19:10   They had a great setup there.

00:19:11   They don't need to go to Apple to do that.

00:19:14   I think Casey, you're right.

00:19:15   They would need to go to Apple to do something else,

00:19:17   to do something more engineering focused maybe.

00:19:20   There's no way they're going to Apple to go make graphs

00:19:23   for the marketing department, not a chance.

00:19:25   - Yep, and since it's Apple,

00:19:27   it's not like we're ever going to know.

00:19:28   It's not like this is like, oh, well, we don't know now,

00:19:30   but I'm sure Apple will tell us exactly what.

00:19:32   No, they're never gonna tell us.

00:19:35   If we see him next year at WAC,

00:19:36   we can talk to him about it and maybe, you know,

00:19:38   but like how many people do we know at Apple?

00:19:41   And we know like what department they work in

00:19:42   and like, that's it.

00:19:44   You know, what specifically do you work in?

00:19:46   Oh, I can't tell you.

00:19:47   You know, it's like, well, you just accept it.

00:19:49   Like you're lucky if you can get, you know,

00:19:50   hardware or software, which hardware group,

00:19:52   which software group,

00:19:53   but that's as close as you can get usually.

00:19:55   - And we don't even know what Phil Schiller does.

00:19:58   We just know he does like everything

00:20:00   and his title is like marketing.

00:20:01   - He goes to Red Sox games, right?

00:20:04   And he mountain bikes, mountain bikes sometimes.

00:20:07   - He buys R8s for his team.

00:20:08   - All we know is that he does pretty much everything

00:20:12   and his title doesn't mean anything.

00:20:15   - And so real time follow up,

00:20:16   the chat room is telling us that Anand

00:20:19   has a computer engineering degree,

00:20:21   which sounds similar to myself in Syracuse,

00:20:24   from North Carolina State University,

00:20:25   which I actually very nearly went to.

00:20:28   It was between that and Virginia Tech,

00:20:29   and I chose Virginia Tech.

00:20:31   So he certainly has an engineering background.

00:20:33   Now, you could argue whether or not he's practiced that

00:20:35   in the traditional sense of the word in the last,

00:20:38   I don't know, 10 years or whatever,

00:20:39   but he certainly has the education to support him

00:20:42   being in the engineering department.

00:20:44   It's a question as to whether or not he actually is

00:20:47   in the engineering department.

00:20:48   - Right, like they wouldn't be hiring him

00:20:49   for the stuff he learned in college,

00:20:50   and they're hiring him for all this stuff he did on his web.

00:20:52   (laughing)

00:20:53   Because, yeah, and it can't be underestimated.

00:20:56   Like, who in the entire industry has had more contact

00:21:01   with the vendors that Apple feels competitive

00:21:04   with hardware-wise.

00:21:05   Like it's basically what kind of press goes to like

00:21:08   the Intel's IDF thing and goes to Samsung in Korea

00:21:12   and goes to all the manufacturers in the Far East

00:21:15   and like just is these incredibly detailed

00:21:18   technical briefings on hardware

00:21:20   and gets a sample hardware and tests it in benchmark.

00:21:22   Like who else has done that?

00:21:23   Like there's, maybe there's a couple other websites

00:21:26   that are maybe competitive, like real world tech

00:21:28   or Extreme Tech and Tom Hardware is still around or whatever,

00:21:31   but what kind of person is going on that circuit

00:21:34   and being in contact with these companies

00:21:36   over the course of years and years?

00:21:37   That is the experience that you can't buy

00:21:39   from someone who comes out of college,

00:21:41   which is an education, that's what they're hiring him for.

00:21:44   - Yeah, and I should also note more real-time follow-up

00:21:47   from a dear friend of the show, Ben Thompson.

00:21:49   Anand was more than just Apple, and he was,

00:21:53   and I didn't realize this, but apparently he and his site

00:21:57   were more of a general hardware review site.

00:22:00   - You never read that site?

00:22:01   You read Tom's Hardware, but not in OnTech?

00:22:03   - I did occasionally. - You were reading

00:22:04   the wrong sites.

00:22:05   He just got into Apple stuff like, you know,

00:22:07   sort of a late comer, like you and Marco,

00:22:09   you and Marco more or less, where it's like,

00:22:11   he reviewed, you know, all the PC hardware type stuff.

00:22:14   I was like, well, maybe Apple has some interesting stuff.

00:22:15   And he got sucked in because Apple stuff is really cool,

00:22:17   just like you two did.

00:22:18   - Yeah, wasn't the Retina MacBook Pro his first Mac?

00:22:20   - No, it was before,

00:22:21   oh, maybe it's for his first personal Mac.

00:22:23   But like, I mean, the Apple stuff leaked into his site

00:22:26   sort of slowly and then they just all got hooked.

00:22:29   I mean, it happened at Ars Technica too.

00:22:30   I may have had something to do with that.

00:22:32   - It's a lot like the way I read Ars Technica.

00:22:34   Like I always read your reviews

00:22:36   and then I'll read occasional things here and there.

00:22:38   I read occasional things that are non-tech.

00:22:40   I can't say I read every single post

00:22:43   by any stretch of the imagination.

00:22:45   - Well, like Marco said, in recent years,

00:22:46   it's been like, if you want a review of the iPhone

00:22:49   that is different than like, you know,

00:22:52   not just a product review,

00:22:53   but the guy who's gonna rip open the CPU

00:22:55   talk about all the art, you know, that's the site I would always go to. That was my go-to site for

00:22:59   that kind of review. Yeah, yeah. And then those are the reviews that I read, but I presume that

00:23:04   there's quite a bit more to a non-tech than just that in those I did not see. Yeah, I go there for,

00:23:08   I mean, they have storage reviews. I mean, there's lots of people writing there. I mean, the site,

00:23:12   I think, is in good hands. Like he doesn't write every single thing on the site, obviously, but I

00:23:15   go there for, you know, reviews about what's next and SSDs and, you know, graphic card stuff. And

00:23:20   That site is, like a lot of the PC-originated sites,

00:23:23   very big on benchmarks, lots of graphs.

00:23:25   You know, if I want to know what video,

00:23:27   how does one video card compare to another,

00:23:30   I do some kind of search,

00:23:31   and I think they have a big searchable benchmark database

00:23:33   for that, like, they're very thorough in that same vein.

00:23:36   They're a great site.

00:23:37   I'll still go to it, even though he's not there anymore.

00:23:40   And I hope he does great things for Apple.

00:23:41   So thumbs up for this move.

00:23:42   - Yeah, good luck.

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00:26:38   Okay, so also this week, this week has been a rough week, but this week it's been even

00:26:45   more rough for a bunch of celebrities, and I believe all of them, or nearly all of them,

00:26:51   are women.

00:26:53   And they seem to have been targeted in order to get access to pictures that really the

00:27:00   internet should not have access to.

00:27:03   And what has happened is there's a ton of celebrities.

00:27:06   I heard, and I honestly don't know how long the list is, but I heard it was like 50 or

00:27:10   100 names long, a ton of celebrities that have had private photographs stolen from them

00:27:18   and posted around the internet.

00:27:20   And when this first happened, everyone seemed to blame iCloud.

00:27:25   And the going theory was that, I believe it was Find My iPhone specifically, did not have

00:27:31   rate limiting when you attempted to log into it.

00:27:34   So some enterprising, if you could call it that, individuals started firing away brute

00:27:41   force dictionary attacks against the Find My iPhone service, trying to figure out what

00:27:47   the iCloud password is for all these celebrities.

00:27:52   And eventually, by some mechanism, be it social engineering or this Find My iPhone thing or

00:27:57   whatever, they seem to have gotten access to a bunch of celebrities' private photographs

00:28:03   which have been leaked.

00:28:04   And so since this happened a few days ago, there's been a lot of debate whether or not

00:28:09   this is really the fault of Apple and iCloud.

00:28:12   And there's a lot of thoughts I have on this, but let me start with you, Jon.

00:28:18   Do you think this is Apple or do you think this is something else?

00:28:21   Where do you land on all this?

00:28:22   Well, here's the thing with the story.

00:28:25   The facts are thin on the ground.

00:28:29   It's not clear at all about anything about this.

00:28:31   Did the pictures come from Apple or from multiple places?

00:28:34   Are they old pictures?

00:28:35   Are they new pictures?

00:28:36   Was it an actual security flaw?

00:28:39   Was it a social engineering hit?

00:28:41   We know nothing.

00:28:42   All we know is these pictures are out there on the internet.

00:28:43   That's the nature of these type of things.

00:28:45   Someone stole a bunch of stuff.

00:28:46   Someone leaked it onto the internet.

00:28:48   We have no idea.

00:28:50   But it brings up all the same issues as we've talked about in the past.

00:28:56   Apple thus far has said they have not been able to determine that there's some kind of

00:29:00   security flaw, like the rate limiting thing has been fixed, so that's not an issue. And they

00:29:06   investigated and basically their statement was something to the effect that there is no like

00:29:10   inherent exploit or security flaw in like software-wise, they seem to be saying, in our

00:29:15   system that caused leaking of these pictures. My guess would be that these pictures

00:29:22   did not all come from Apple and did not all come from wherever they came from recently.

00:29:28   the theory that I've read, and again this is just a theory, it's not a fact, that sounds plausible to

00:29:33   me is that there is sort of an underground trading ring of, you know, illegally stolen digital data

00:29:41   that is fetched from servers where people have backups or whatever, and this was just a leak out

00:29:47   of that sort of little circle of people trading this illegally acquired data. So it's, you know,

00:29:53   because all these are leaked cell phones, they're not leaked from the people who took the photos,

00:29:57   They were stolen from the people who took the photos and then the people who stole them

00:30:00   Kept them to themselves in a little ring and then they were leaked out of that ring

00:30:03   That is the theory and it seems like a plausible theory to me because that type of sort of illegal

00:30:07   Software or illegally acquired digital goods being sort of a secret inner circle and then being pierced by somebody who lets something out and then

00:30:14   the inner circle is revealed

00:30:16   That sounds like a thing that you know, I've seen before on the internet and that sounds plausible

00:30:21   This is definitely people would want to do the question is

00:30:24   How did all these pictures get from the people's phones to the possession of the people who stole them?

00:30:30   And that's where we get into talking about Apple talking about security flaws

00:30:34   Apple is so big surely some of these things came from Apple. We've been through this before with the mat

00:30:40   What's his last name Matt Honan? Yep. Yeah that you know that the security flaws that we've been talked about

00:30:47   and the very worst ones are not technical flaws.

00:30:50   It's like, you know, read Kevin Mitnick's book,

00:30:52   like it's social engineering.

00:30:54   The fact that you can call someone on the phone,

00:30:56   pretend to be someone else,

00:30:57   answer their supposed security questions

00:30:59   that you can just look up on the internet about them,

00:31:01   like where they grew up or where they went to school

00:31:04   or what their mother's maiden name is or whatever,

00:31:07   and get their password, right?

00:31:09   And so that, no matter how strong your password is,

00:31:11   no matter how bug-free Apple security software is,

00:31:14   and the rate limiting thing is a software bug too,

00:31:15   But like even if all that was perfect,

00:31:18   if you can just call someone on the phone

00:31:20   and tell a sob story and get into their account,

00:31:22   like what the hell's the point of the rest of that software?

00:31:25   And that's the most difficult thing here.

00:31:27   You'd like to tell everybody,

00:31:28   "Hey everybody, make sure you have good passwords,

00:31:29   "don't reuse your passwords, blah, blah, blah."

00:31:30   But it doesn't matter if someone just call up Apple

00:31:32   and get all your crap anyway.

00:31:33   And what they're getting is usually like the backup

00:31:35   of your phone, like the iCloud backup of your phone.

00:31:38   And so, you know, and even that is encrypted,

00:31:41   but then once they have it in their possession,

00:31:42   they can decrypt it and you know,

00:31:43   once they get your password, they can do everything.

00:31:45   And it's in the interest of, if there is a group like this that's stealing pictures of celebrities and stuff like that,

00:31:50   it's in their interest not to like go into those accounts and like blackmail them or like erase all their stuff.

00:31:56   They just want to get in, get out, steal their pictures, and you know, this could have been going on for,

00:31:59   I'm sure it has been going on for years and years. And it's not just celebrities.

00:32:02   It's like everybody with an axe to grind and get somebody, you go to one of these little rings and say,

00:32:06   "Hey, can you get me a backup of my ex-girlfriend's phone? I want to see all her naked pictures or whatever."

00:32:10   It's just a criminal enterprise that's exploiting weaknesses in our systems, and they're weaknesses,

00:32:16   unfortunately, that most customers can't do much about except, I guess, complain.

00:32:20   The thing that was most ridiculous and surprising to me was that my understanding was a lot

00:32:28   of people were blaming the celebrities for using iCloud and Dropbox and things like that,

00:32:37   as though it was somehow their fault that somebody went in

00:32:42   and to your point, illegally stole their pictures.

00:32:45   Like, "Oh, you shouldn't have taken naked pictures

00:32:47   and put them on a high class."

00:32:48   Are you kidding me?

00:32:50   That's like saying, well, you left your house unlocked,

00:32:52   so it's your own fault that everything got stolen.

00:32:55   - It's not even unlocked.

00:32:55   It's like, well, you left your money in a bank.

00:32:57   What do you expect when the bank gets robbed?

00:32:59   Maybe you should've left your money in a bank.

00:33:01   Maybe you should think twice about using a credit card.

00:33:03   You know, well, you got your car stolen.

00:33:05   That's what you get for having a car.

00:33:07   I mean, this is not like leaving your house unlocked.

00:33:09   This is like having a car, having a bank account.

00:33:11   Everybody has a smartphone.

00:33:12   It's not an unfortunate bad thing to have.

00:33:14   Everybody takes pictures with their smart,

00:33:16   like it's ridiculous.

00:33:17   It's completely off the wall.

00:33:20   And you know, that's really,

00:33:22   this is not really the issue we're getting at here

00:33:24   with this iCloud hack,

00:33:25   but like what it really comes down to is

00:33:27   if you wanna go like keep cranking up the meta levels,

00:33:31   it's the weird attitude we have.

00:33:36   Maybe it's weird as a species if you look at it really broad view, go out to Mars or something, but certainly in the US

00:33:41   it's weird

00:33:43   puritanical view of nudity and sex that we have that it's like taboo and evil and like

00:33:49   that

00:33:51   the idea that like they're doing something wrong by taking naked pictures of themselves because if you were a good person you would not do

00:33:57   that and it's so and that that's how it's different in people's minds than keeping your money in the back.

00:34:01   Well keeping your money in the back is one thing but taking naked pictures, no, it's exactly the same thing. Two things

00:34:05   They're private that your possession that you're allowed to do. It's your money. It's your bank account

00:34:09   Other people shouldn't have access there your photos. So there's a photo of your plants

00:34:13   Your your house your kids you with clothes on without clothes on suddenly when you take clothes on it becomes this other category of craziness

00:34:20   That anyway, that's a whole we're not gonna fix the the problem of the United States and their

00:34:25   Screwed up attitude towards sex, but that is why that is why you get all this craziness

00:34:31   coming in here where people lose their minds about it.

00:34:34   And it's not even worth discussing that stupidity.

00:34:37   But I think the thing that's worth discussing is,

00:34:40   forget about what they stole.

00:34:41   I don't want anybody stealing backups of my phones.

00:34:44   I don't care what's on them.

00:34:45   Like, that's what we have to address here.

00:34:48   And I just, I wish Apple would work harder to,

00:34:53   I mean, like, so Gruber did a post about how the backups,

00:35:01   You know, the iCloud backups are a good thing

00:35:03   because people are much more likely

00:35:04   to lose all their photos of their kids

00:35:06   because their phone fell in a lake

00:35:07   than they are to get hacked.

00:35:08   And so it's a trade-off between,

00:35:10   well, if you just never do iCloud backups,

00:35:12   you're safe from hacking,

00:35:13   but you could lose all your pictures

00:35:14   and you're much more likely to lose all your pictures

00:35:16   of your kids than you are to get hacked.

00:35:19   And the other trade-off is in any security thing,

00:35:21   it's convenience versus security.

00:35:23   If they didn't have the stupid, you know,

00:35:25   tell me your mother's maiden name

00:35:26   in the high school you went to things,

00:35:28   people would get locked out of their accounts

00:35:29   and they'd be like, Apple would be like,

00:35:31   "Well, sorry, you lost your password.

00:35:32   "We never knew what your password is.

00:35:33   "You can't get it and just have to erase your phone."

00:35:35   And they would be like, "Are you kidding me?"

00:35:36   Like, people forget their passwords like crazy.

00:35:40   And so Apple is trying in the same terrible way

00:35:43   that everyone else is doing to make it

00:35:44   so that people aren't locked out of their phones

00:35:46   when they inevitably forget their password.

00:35:49   But what is it that you can replace a password with

00:35:51   that is as secure as a password or more secure

00:35:54   that people won't forget?

00:35:55   Like, there's no good solution for that,

00:35:57   except for maybe like touch ID or I think that like,

00:36:01   if I had to advise Apple on how to address this,

00:36:04   I would go more towards like the other systems

00:36:07   that we have for identity, like,

00:36:09   I don't know, do a video call with somebody

00:36:11   and record a video of them, get in touch with them,

00:36:13   make them prove through a trusted third party

00:36:15   that they are who they are,

00:36:16   some sort of really annoying process

00:36:18   that if you were concerned about security,

00:36:21   you could prove to them in a way,

00:36:23   in many different factors that you were who you were.

00:36:25   And then if someone wanted to reset their password,

00:36:28   they would have to reproduce that extremely annoying,

00:36:32   you know, proof that you are who you are.

00:36:35   But most people don't wanna do that.

00:36:37   And so Apple is kind of trying to aim

00:36:39   for the correct balance between security and convenience

00:36:43   that inconvenience is the fewest number of people.

00:36:46   But it is a trade-off and it is an imperfect trade-off

00:36:49   and it's an increasingly imperfect trade-off

00:36:51   when now it's so easy to find out the answers

00:36:54   people's security questions by just like trolling their Facebook and stuff.

00:36:57   Yeah, and I'm glad you jumped on me a few minutes ago in saying that it's like leaving your house

00:37:02   unlocked. That was an unfair analogy and you're absolutely right. These people did nothing wrong,

00:37:08   either by means of a flaw in Apple systems or perhaps some social engineering. They had

00:37:16   something stolen from them and that's just not fair. And the one interesting thing to me is that

00:37:22   When the internet decided that this was all Apple and iCloud's fault, nobody seemed to think that was

00:37:31   surprising. And that's a problem. Like if everyone, if there's this great, huge security leak,

00:37:40   and everyone says, "Oh, well, you know, that's iCloud," like that's a big freaking problem.

00:37:46   And-

00:37:47   Is a branding problem, you mean, right?

00:37:48   Yeah, and that's exactly right.

00:37:51   And here it is presumably with iOS 8 coming on Tuesday, or well, being talked about on

00:37:57   Tuesday and presumably they're going to talk about a lot of this photos in the cloud stuff

00:38:02   that they talked about at WWDC.

00:38:05   This is not a good time for this to be happening.

00:38:08   And so I just feel like at some point, and I know we've said this a thousand times, at

00:38:14   At some point, Apple's gonna have to get really serious

00:38:17   about their cloud services.

00:38:20   - But in this regard, it's not like the parts

00:38:22   where they're not good at online services.

00:38:24   This is the thing where seriousness won't save them.

00:38:29   It's not like there is something that other companies

00:38:30   know how to do that Apple is refusing to do or is bad at.

00:38:33   There is no good solution to this.

00:38:35   Like two-factor authentication,

00:38:36   where you have to authenticate not just with a password,

00:38:38   but also with something else that you possess.

00:38:40   Either they text your phone,

00:38:41   or someone pointed out today it's kind of ridiculous

00:38:44   with the SMS gateway on the Mac thing

00:38:46   that text will also appear on your Mac,

00:38:48   so if someone has access to your Mac and your Apple ID,

00:38:50   they can get that text too.

00:38:51   But anyway, two-factor authentication helps,

00:38:53   but the reason, it's like,

00:38:54   well, why doesn't everybody do two-factor?

00:38:57   You kidding?

00:38:58   People can't even remember their passwords.

00:38:59   Two-factor is still too complicated.

00:39:00   It's the balance between security and convenience.

00:39:02   And the current balance between security and convenience

00:39:04   is already, from most people's perspectives,

00:39:06   pushed too far into the side of security.

00:39:08   All these passwords they have to remember,

00:39:10   It's a crappy system.

00:39:11   Touch ID, I think, helps,

00:39:13   because that's a security convenience thing

00:39:15   where they can give you additional security

00:39:16   and also a little bit additional convenience.

00:39:18   It's not the usual trade-off that you can do there.

00:39:20   But there is not some obvious thing that Apple can do.

00:39:22   Like, boy, if only Apple was more serious.

00:39:24   The reason it's so easy to hack your accounts

00:39:26   is because it has to be that easy

00:39:28   for all the people who forget their passwords.

00:39:29   And there's just probably thousands and thousands of them

00:39:32   every day who forget their passwords

00:39:33   and use that system for its legitimate purposes

00:39:35   who would be pissed off if they couldn't.

00:39:37   You can't tell somebody, well, all your stuff is dead.

00:39:40   You forgot your password.

00:39:41   You don't remember what it is.

00:39:42   Your backup is encrypted.

00:39:43   No one else can decrypt it but you.

00:39:45   Then you've lost all the pictures of your kids again.

00:39:48   Like, well, I can prove that I'm me.

00:39:49   Like, we don't know who you are.

00:39:51   We have nothing.

00:39:52   And so that's why I think you have to,

00:39:55   it just has to be a social, sort of a change in society

00:39:58   to realize that if you care about your stuff online,

00:40:00   you have to protect it in a way that is inconvenient for you

00:40:04   in terms of proving who you really are.

00:40:06   And at the very least start with having a system.

00:40:08   The two factor is one example of that.

00:40:09   If you care about it, you can go through with two factor

00:40:12   and go through the hassle for the increased security.

00:40:15   They should have a step up from that

00:40:17   that involves like authenticating who you are

00:40:19   in every possible way, using all technology

00:40:21   and our disposal and the legal system and everything else

00:40:23   to really, really prove you are who you are.

00:40:25   - Yeah, and to also quote Ben Thompson,

00:40:30   he wrote a piece today which is in the chat room,

00:40:33   we'll put in the show notes about how,

00:40:35   And I think the way he phrased it is really good.

00:40:38   The problem is that Apple has no reservoir of goodwill

00:40:42   when it comes to iCloud.

00:40:44   And in this case, it may or may not even be

00:40:46   that iCloud was the issue.

00:40:48   It may be, to your point, John,

00:40:49   a bunch of really, really great social engineering.

00:40:52   - But that's still iCloud.

00:40:54   I mean, social engineering of Apple's service.

00:40:57   - Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is

00:40:59   it could be that iCloud was reasonably proficient

00:41:05   at blocking these sorts of attacks.

00:41:07   I'm not saying it is or it isn't,

00:41:08   but it could be that it was.

00:41:10   Yet, because we all know and assume

00:41:13   that iCloud is a steaming pile of crap,

00:41:16   as soon as somebody theorized that iCloud was the problem,

00:41:19   the entire internet decided, oh, well, it must be iCloud.

00:41:22   - Yeah, 'cause people can't differentiate

00:41:24   between like, well, their services aren't responsive

00:41:27   and their uptime is bad,

00:41:28   versus like security flaws versus social engineering.

00:41:30   Yeah, you're right, it just goes all into the same bin.

00:41:32   And the fact that just iPhones are popular,

00:41:33   iPhones are popular with celebrities.

00:41:35   Celebrities are, you know, like I said,

00:41:37   who knows where these pictures came from?

00:41:38   Some of them surely came from iCloud,

00:41:39   some of them surely came from other places.

00:41:41   Doesn't matter, just really matters

00:41:42   what's the headline of the story.

00:41:44   But I mean, Apple can,

00:41:45   I'm sure Apple won't make reference to this,

00:41:48   I'm assuming they won't,

00:41:49   but like, we'll talk about this in a bit,

00:41:51   on the September 9th event when they're presumably

00:41:53   going to introduce new iPhones,

00:41:56   Touch ID is a step in the right direction with this.

00:41:59   It's, granted, you can fool it

00:42:01   and it's not as secure as whatever and blah, blah, blah,

00:42:03   but it's an additional factor, right?

00:42:05   And they have existing two-factor authentication.

00:42:08   Apple is clearly trying to find ways

00:42:11   to make things more secure and more convenient

00:42:14   instead of just saying, okay, we'll give you

00:42:17   what I was suggesting, which is make it more secure

00:42:18   and less convenient for the people who need that security,

00:42:21   give them the option.

00:42:22   And another thing, in response to this, as I usually do,

00:42:26   I'm like, well, time to change my password again.

00:42:27   I just, why not? (laughing)

00:42:30   Make it even more ridiculous.

00:42:31   Anyway, when I was doing that,

00:42:34   when I tried to log into my Apple ID,

00:42:37   it was like appleid.apple.com or something,

00:42:40   I actually, what I was originally going in was

00:42:43   to see what my security questions were

00:42:44   to make sure they weren't like,

00:42:46   make sure they were nonsense basically

00:42:48   and not the truth or something,

00:42:49   'cause someone could look up

00:42:50   because they only give you a choice

00:42:51   of like questions that anybody could look up.

00:42:53   And it wouldn't even let me into my account,

00:42:55   like let me see my security questions

00:42:57   or anything about my account

00:42:58   because as soon as I logged in,

00:42:59   it said, "Your password is too insecure,

00:43:01   please set a new one."

00:43:03   Again, I couldn't get to any of my other resources.

00:43:04   I couldn't see my email address,

00:43:06   couldn't see my mailing address, my payment info.

00:43:08   You couldn't get to the interface on the Apple ID site.

00:43:10   Everything worked fine.

00:43:10   I could still log in and use all my stuff,

00:43:12   but trying to manage your Apple ID,

00:43:15   they are apparently trying to enforce better passwords

00:43:18   by deciding whose password is or isn't secure.

00:43:21   So I changed my password to make it more secure.

00:43:24   I also looked at my security questions

00:43:26   and did a security pass.

00:43:28   You can do that.

00:43:29   I don't know how much that protects me.

00:43:30   If someone is really smooth and gets a bad telephone rep,

00:43:33   they could probably still social engineer their way in.

00:43:37   But yeah, I mean, and two-factor helps,

00:43:39   but security's a constant battle.

00:43:42   - And we can all keep talking about how Apple

00:43:47   could add all these things in to make things more secure,

00:43:49   give us options to lock things down

00:43:51   more tightly and everything,

00:43:53   but one of the biggest problems is

00:43:54   if these things are not the defaults

00:43:56   or the only way to do things,

00:43:58   then they're not really gonna protect most people.

00:44:01   And most of these celebrities who were targeted

00:44:05   for this mass theft over whatever amount of time it was,

00:44:08   they would, a good portion of them probably

00:44:13   would have all their phones on

00:44:14   whatever the default settings were.

00:44:16   And so unless you make the defaults crazy complicated

00:44:20   or make that the only option,

00:44:23   having the options is not gonna really help most people.

00:44:26   - Well, celebrities might be motivated

00:44:28   Like it made word who get around amongst celebrities like when you get an iPhone that asks you if you want to use your fingerprint

00:44:33   As a second factor say yes, like you know this this type of thing is something for people who are like

00:44:38   Targeted by likely to be targeted by these attacks even if they're not tech savvy because I think Apple does a pretty good job of

00:44:45   Like during your like phone setup dates like you should set a password passcode

00:44:49   and if you try to say no

00:44:50   It's like you sure you don't want to have a passcode and same thing with touch ID like

00:44:53   They are trying to encourage people to be more secure

00:44:56   And I think socially within groups of people who feel they are targeted for potential hacks have some motivation to talk amongst themselves

00:45:03   And say yes, you know your phone doesn't have a like like lock codes your phone doesn't have a lock code

00:45:07   You should totally have a lock code. Oh your phone doesn't also use touch ID. You should totally use that you know

00:45:11   So there's hope there. I think yeah, so breaking news as we're recording on this Thursday night

00:45:17   Apparently Tim Cook has given a statement or interview of some sort to the Wall Street Journal

00:45:25   because the Wall Street Journal is a bunch of idiots who thinks that they have to block all their content,

00:45:31   all I can read to you is the following. In his first interview on the subject, Apple chief executive Tim Cook said,

00:45:38   "Now it's getting really, really hard to read. Celebrity's iCloud accounts were compromised when the hackers correctly answered security."

00:45:44   Questions to obtain their passwords or when they were victimized by a...

00:45:48   Oh, thank you.

00:45:49   I deleted the thing on the DOM inspector.

00:45:51   [laughter]

00:45:52   - Yeah, that's the first thing I tried in their paywall,

00:45:55   but they actually don't put the whole text there,

00:45:56   which is a shame.

00:45:57   - The Google trick still works.

00:45:59   - I tried that and it didn't work for me,

00:46:00   but maybe it's user error.

00:46:01   - If I paste this into our Skype chat,

00:46:03   is that copyright infringement?

00:46:05   - Yeah, go ahead, but I don't think we need to read it,

00:46:07   but anyway, you can put a link to it

00:46:09   and do whatever everyone who has a website usually does.

00:46:11   You just put a link to the Google results so people can,

00:46:14   anyway, like they said, there's no flaw in our software

00:46:16   other than the rate limiting, which obviously they fixed

00:46:18   and they found, I'm not surprised that they found this.

00:46:21   that like they can find, okay,

00:46:23   pick some celebrity's account with their permission,

00:46:25   say we'd like to investigate how you got hacked,

00:46:27   find out how they got hacked

00:46:28   with someone called Apple's support line,

00:46:30   answer their security questions, got their stuff.

00:46:32   And that's exactly what I was talking about,

00:46:33   like that, that's not,

00:46:35   the security questions are less secure than a password.

00:46:38   And intentionally so,

00:46:39   because when you've forgotten your password,

00:46:41   they want you to have some way to get your stuff back.

00:46:44   And if you've forgotten your password,

00:46:45   we need to have something that you are less likely to forget.

00:46:47   You're less likely to forget

00:46:48   who your second grade teacher was, right?

00:46:50   than you are to have your password,

00:46:51   but it's also easier to get.

00:46:52   Like it's, you know, it's a trade off

00:46:55   and it is a very bad trade off for people

00:46:57   who could potentially be targeted.

00:46:59   So I think Apple is working in the right direction

00:47:02   with the biometric stuff

00:47:03   and I think they should continue to go even farther.

00:47:05   Who knows, maybe like little pictures, video, voice print,

00:47:07   like we can prove to each other more or less.

00:47:11   We don't have to worry about a couple of generations

00:47:13   having difficulty proving to each other

00:47:14   that we are who we are

00:47:15   because we have a distinctive look, people recognize us.

00:47:18   Eventually there's enough social proof that you are Mark Arment and people see you and

00:47:22   say that's him.

00:47:23   You don't have a twin brother as far as we know.

00:47:25   You know, plastic surgery is not good enough to match you exactly.

00:47:28   We don't have holograms.

00:47:29   They're like, we are in a place where we can prove you are who you are.

00:47:32   We just need to convey more of that.

00:47:35   And we have the thing is we have the technology to convey more of that information about proving

00:47:38   who you are.

00:47:39   We have video, we have audio, we have touch sensors.

00:47:43   We can make this happen.

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00:50:41   - So we are recording this on Thursday the fourth.

00:50:45   It will hopefully be out on Friday the fifth,

00:50:48   maybe Saturday the sixth.

00:50:49   And on the ninth, Apple is releasing something new.

00:50:55   So it would be wrong of us not to at least spend

00:50:59   a few moments discussing what do we expect to see.

00:51:03   So Marco, what do you expect to see?

00:51:05   - I mean, there's the obvious stuff.

00:51:07   The stuff that like the rumor sites have basically,

00:51:10   there's been enough smoke and enough parts leaks to--

00:51:13   - Stuff we've seen videos of.

00:51:14   (laughing)

00:51:16   Assembled, purported iPhone 6s, right?

00:51:19   - That one even powered on

00:51:20   and showed the firmware update screen.

00:51:22   - Yeah, seriously.

00:51:24   - Yeah, so I think if you can boot a new iPhone

00:51:26   into DFU mode, I think it's probably confirmation

00:51:29   that it exists.

00:51:30   (laughs)

00:51:31   So I think it's pretty clear we're getting a 4.7 inch

00:51:34   iPhone 6 at the bare minimum.

00:51:36   Now--

00:51:36   - Hold on, I'm not trying to be funny.

00:51:38   The thing in that video that was the 4.7 inch,

00:51:41   'cause that thing looked huge to me.

00:51:43   - No, no, we haven't seen, we've seen almost nothing

00:51:46   from a 5.5 inch.

00:51:47   I believe somebody got a back panel a couple days ago

00:51:50   or something that might be from it,

00:51:51   but we've seen in general,

00:51:53   we've seen effectively nothing about the 5.5.

00:51:56   - I saw this device, this reported new iPhone

00:51:59   in this person's hand, and I thought it looked enormous.

00:52:02   And if that's the 4.5, 4.7, whatever it is,

00:52:05   man, I don't know if I can handle that.

00:52:07   - Well, see, we're close enough to the event now

00:52:10   that if the 5.5 wasn't a real thing,

00:52:12   you would think that Apple would do that thing it does

00:52:15   where it gets the message out

00:52:17   that maybe a 5.5 is not a real thing.

00:52:19   - Right, like, so there'd be a leaked report

00:52:21   Bloomberg or WSJ saying like, "Oh, well, actually..."

00:52:24   Or even not like... They can make either official statements or statements through people that...

00:52:29   Like, remember in the WRC when they weren't going to have hardware, they made it clear

00:52:32   they weren't going to have hardware without saying they weren't going to have hardware.

00:52:34   They don't care in the months leading up to it. But right before the event, I feel like if there

00:52:39   wasn't going to be two sizes of iPhones, big and even bigger, they would have been saying something

00:52:45   by now.

00:52:46   - Yeah.

00:52:47   - Or getting the word out.

00:52:48   So I'm with Marco, 4.7, 5.5 iPhones.

00:52:52   I'm also totally in agreement that everyone has said that the 5.5 is gonna be more expensive,

00:52:57   not just because they wanna differentiate, but because the bigger screen costs more money,

00:53:01   bigger batteries cost more money, and that's a lot of the cost of the phone is in the screen

00:53:05   and the battery.

00:53:06   So yeah, those are the easy ones.

00:53:09   - Yeah, there's been a couple of very recent rumors, like in the last couple days, saying

00:53:12   that both the iPad Air 2 would be unveiled.

00:53:17   So a new iPad Air with an anti-glare screen,

00:53:20   which sounds interesting, and a better Touch ID sensor.

00:53:24   So apparently there's going to be a second generation Touch ID

00:53:26   sensor that then the iPad will get,

00:53:27   and then the phone, of course, will get it as well.

00:53:29   And another recent rumor is that the wearable device

00:53:32   will be announced, but won't ship until next year.

00:53:35   So there's a whole bunch of recent craziness

00:53:38   surrounding this event.

00:53:39   They're also building that giant white structure

00:53:41   that I think the most plausible speculation people have had is that it's actually a concert

00:53:46   venue for you two to perform. Who knows? What we do know is that anything we say in this

00:53:54   show predicting what's going to be there beyond a new iPhone, we're probably going to look

00:53:59   back at next week and laugh at because we're...

00:54:01   Don't you think we can all be safe in saying that there's a better than 50/50 chance that

00:54:07   they're going to announce a wearable?

00:54:09   I think so.

00:54:11   I feel safe in saying that.

00:54:12   Just because if this was gonna be only an iPhone event,

00:54:15   the invitation would have been more forthcoming.

00:54:17   - Did you see they have that countdown page

00:54:19   for the live stream?

00:54:21   And it's saying like there's so much more.

00:54:23   They're hyping this up a lot.

00:54:24   Apple is hyping this up more than usual.

00:54:26   - Right, and it's a giant venue.

00:54:28   The Flint Center is way bigger than the normal venues.

00:54:30   They invited tons of press to this thing.

00:54:33   It's not like in the little town hall.

00:54:36   It's not in the, it's a huge venue.

00:54:39   They're building this big structure,

00:54:40   which I assume is gonna be either be,

00:54:43   it's not the event's not gonna be there,

00:54:45   so it's either a hands-on area or a YouTube concert area

00:54:47   or like, who knows?

00:54:50   It seems like a much bigger deal.

00:54:53   And you wouldn't do this if it was just a bunch of iPhones

00:54:55   or even if it was iPhones and iPads.

00:54:56   And so what are we expecting from Apple?

00:54:58   Wearables or a TV thing?

00:54:59   A TV thing doesn't seem like it's in the cards.

00:55:02   I haven't heard much smoke about that.

00:55:03   So you gotta say it's a wearable thing.

00:55:05   And I also agree with the rumors that say

00:55:08   it probably won't ship because if it was shipping,

00:55:09   we'd be seeing the leaks.

00:55:10   Like they get to do the same thing they did

00:55:12   with the original iPhone.

00:55:13   Way pre-announce it, because it's not like

00:55:16   you're killing sales of an existing product.

00:55:17   And you have to do all this government FCC stuff

00:55:20   and other things that will cause it to leak,

00:55:21   and plus manufacturing and bazillion other things.

00:55:24   So, you know, announce it first, problem solved.

00:55:26   - Well, and also, I think this, like, so far,

00:55:31   if Apple makes any new product, we see parts leaks.

00:55:33   Like, if they make anything that's gonna ship imminently,

00:55:37   we see parts leaks in advance,

00:55:38   because they're making things at such big scales.

00:55:40   - That people care about.

00:55:42   Things that people care about,

00:55:43   because not enough people cared about the Mac Pro,

00:55:45   and that didn't leak. - That's true.

00:55:46   But they also weren't making that in massive volumes,

00:55:48   and that's-- - Yeah, exactly.

00:55:50   But you don't see leaks of new iMacs,

00:55:53   or for even the matter of laptops.

00:55:55   They're best-selling laptops.

00:55:56   It's like, "Eh, no one really cares enough."

00:55:58   - Well, but again, the volume that they're producing there,

00:56:01   they sell so many iPhones that they can't keep an iPhone

00:56:04   under wraps during the massive ramp-up

00:56:07   of getting the manufacturer and going before launch.

00:56:09   And so they definitely run the same risk

00:56:12   with a wearable thing,

00:56:13   but if they release a compelling wearable device,

00:56:16   they're probably gonna sell a butt ton of them

00:56:17   very, very shortly after launch.

00:56:19   And so they, especially,

00:56:21   well, it's probably gonna miss the holiday season,

00:56:22   but regardless, they're gonna sell a ton of them.

00:56:24   And so they're probably announcing it very far in advance,

00:56:28   if that is indeed what they're doing,

00:56:30   just so they can control the reveal of it.

00:56:33   it crushes them when they have this cool big secret thing

00:56:37   and then the internet ruins it with parts leaks

00:56:39   in months ahead of time or weeks ahead of time.

00:56:41   I'm sure Apple wants to control every bit of the narrative

00:56:45   of how this new device, if it exists

00:56:47   and it sounds likely to exist,

00:56:49   of how this device is unveiled to the world.

00:56:51   'Cause suppose we just got a parts leak.

00:56:54   Suppose some rumor site had some picture

00:56:58   of some wrist cuff with the screen on the top

00:57:02   and an Apple logo on the back

00:57:03   and that's all we knew about it.

00:57:05   That would be anti-climactic at least,

00:57:09   and possibly underwhelming.

00:57:13   It's like, oh, well, they're just making something

00:57:14   that looks like a nice smartwatch.

00:57:16   And that's all we would know.

00:57:17   And the whole narrative would be controlled

00:57:19   by the rumor cycle and the speculative press.

00:57:22   Whereas if they have this event to show it off to us

00:57:24   for the first time, they control everything

00:57:27   about how it's perceived.

00:57:28   They set the tone, they set the talking points,

00:57:30   they tell us why it's so cool.

00:57:32   And then we get to go around telling everyone else

00:57:34   their talking points about why it's so cool.

00:57:37   That's so much better than trying to fight with the leaks

00:57:40   and trying to stay ahead of the PR on those.

00:57:43   So I think it's very clear why they would do something

00:57:47   like this very far in advance

00:57:48   for a brand new kind of device like this.

00:57:50   - I'm trying to think of when they did it.

00:57:51   Again, obviously, if there's no existing product,

00:57:53   you get to do it because you get to pre-announce

00:57:55   'cause you're not killing sales of your existing product.

00:57:57   But then if it's an existing one like the phones,

00:57:59   like the things leak,

00:58:00   I think the last one I can remember, well, this is still an original type thing.

00:58:04   I was gonna say, like, the original iPad didn't leak.

00:58:07   People cared about the iPad, people cared a lot about the tablet, and I think they announced

00:58:12   that not too long before it went on sale, but we had no leak in that.

00:58:15   Not that there was that much leak, like, it's a tablet, the whole issue was, like, what's

00:58:19   gonna be on the screen.

00:58:20   But yeah, like, when they've had to combat leaks, like, think about the 5S, like, there

00:58:24   was gonna be a gold one, we already knew it was gonna be gold, and we saw all the parts.

00:58:28   had to, in their presentation, they had to sort of work their magic to say, "I know

00:58:32   you've seen lots of pictures of this gold backplate, and you've seen it compared in

00:58:35   different things, and you've seen the darker gold one, and you've seen the lighter gold

00:58:38   one, and you've seen it next to the grey one, and you've seen different colored blacks,

00:58:40   but we're going to show you a nice highly produced video with this liquid gold melting

00:58:44   stuff and tell you why it's great, and put Johnny Iov up there to tilt his head and tell

00:58:48   you about the diamond cut chamfer and all this other, oh, I'll say chamfer, and it'll

00:58:52   be great, and you will forget all about the other stuff."

00:58:55   You kind of do forget, but you're right Marco.

00:58:57   It's so much better to not have any of that to compete with

00:59:00   and just say your first picture,

00:59:04   your first introduction to this thing

00:59:06   will be through marketing materials that we have vetted.

00:59:08   You'll see it in the best light,

00:59:10   in the context we want you to see it,

00:59:11   and the purposes that we think this thing is gonna do.

00:59:13   And by the way, speaking of purposes,

00:59:14   a lot of people in the chat room have been talking about,

00:59:16   oh, you wanted better authentication for iCloud security.

00:59:19   Well, this wristwatch might help.

00:59:21   Yeah, it might if it has touch ID sensor.

00:59:23   I'm not sure something that's strapped

00:59:24   onto your wrist or on any other part of your body

00:59:27   has any better access to proving you are who you are

00:59:30   other than the same way as that a phone or a video

00:59:32   or some other thing can.

00:59:33   But anyway, that's an angle we can look for.

00:59:35   - It's interesting to me that Apple is so enthusiastic

00:59:41   to have put up a countdown.

00:59:47   It seems so not appley to me

00:59:52   to put up this countdown like this.

00:59:53   I mean, generally speaking, my impression of Apple

00:59:57   is they come out of nowhere and just drop this bomb

01:00:01   and say, "Hey, this thing that you never knew you wanted,

01:00:04   not only is it a thing, but guess what?

01:00:06   You want it."

01:00:07   And it's surprising to me to see this countdown

01:00:11   basically saying this thing that we all know

01:00:14   we're probably gonna talk about,

01:00:15   we're gonna talk about it in four days, 14 hours,

01:00:18   49 minutes, and four seconds.

01:00:19   - I think they've done countdowns before.

01:00:21   Keep in mind, this is a countdown on a page

01:00:22   where the only line is "wish we could say more."

01:00:24   Like they don't even give you like a bad pun or a hint

01:00:28   or like they've gone so far as to make

01:00:30   the little twisting apple thing

01:00:31   to show a little lion behind it

01:00:33   with the back to the neck thing.

01:00:34   Like they give you some kind of vague,

01:00:36   even if the hint only makes sense in retrospect,

01:00:38   this one they're like you get nothing.

01:00:40   You get a white apple logo and you get a statement

01:00:43   that could only be construed if it's like

01:00:45   I wish we could make Siri say more things

01:00:47   or some BS stuff like that.

01:00:48   Like people are just desperate to mine

01:00:50   any nugget of information.

01:00:51   but they're essentially saying,

01:00:54   you know, I know that you know that I know

01:00:56   that you know that I have a wearable device

01:00:58   that I'm gonna, you know, and that's,

01:01:00   and really like, there's, the stakes in this

01:01:03   could not be higher.

01:01:04   Now first of all, putting aside like the poor CEO of Fitbit

01:01:07   who's gonna be watching this thing chewing on his fingernails

01:01:09   the whole time, right? (laughing)

01:01:11   Putting aside that, this is kind of, you know,

01:01:12   this is Tim Cook's like, not gonna say

01:01:15   make it or break it moment,

01:01:16   but this is an important moment for Tim Cook's Apple,

01:01:18   because previously the big complaint was,

01:01:19   yeah fine, Tim, you're doing well with the company

01:01:22   and the stock price has doubled or whatever

01:01:24   since you took over and selling more than ever or whatever,

01:01:26   but how come you haven't revolutionized the whatever world

01:01:29   and where is the iWatch, where is the, right,

01:01:32   so here's gonna be a new product category.

01:01:34   He's talked about it for a long time,

01:01:35   he's been talking about it probably too long.

01:01:38   If it happens, it seems very likely to happen now

01:01:42   or sometime this year and so this is,

01:01:44   people are gonna look at this and say,

01:01:47   Okay, well finally Apple enters a new product category

01:01:50   under Tim Cook.

01:01:51   Does it look like it's good?

01:01:53   Does it look like it's gonna be popular?

01:01:55   Does it look like a stinker?

01:01:56   Are people down?

01:01:56   And even then, like, you know,

01:01:58   people thought the iPad was a stinker too

01:02:00   and that sold pretty well.

01:02:01   So this is an important moment for Apple and for Tim Cook

01:02:06   and it will be an important rest of the year,

01:02:08   especially if the thing doesn't ship until next year

01:02:09   'cause we won't really know until like

01:02:11   the first big burst of people who are desperate

01:02:13   to have this thing get it

01:02:14   and then the reviews come in and you know,

01:02:15   the whole nine yards.

01:02:16   So it's an interesting time.

01:02:19   The other interesting thing to me, and we alluded to this earlier, was a dear friend

01:02:24   of the show, underscore David Smith, pointed out the relative seating capacity of Apple

01:02:29   event venues.

01:02:30   The campus town hall, 301.

01:02:33   The urban center, 757.

01:02:37   Flint Center, where Tuesday's event is happening, 2,405.

01:02:42   I mean, obviously, and like you both said earlier, Apple is of the opinion that this

01:02:49   is going to be big.

01:02:50   If you look at the things that were released in the Flint Center, someone tweeted that

01:02:53   as well.

01:02:54   I think it was like the original Mac, the iMac, and then some product that was totally

01:02:57   forgettable.

01:02:58   You know, it's a bigger venue.

01:03:00   That's all you need to know.

01:03:01   It's like, it's way bigger.

01:03:02   It's not even close.

01:03:03   It's obvious.

01:03:04   I mean, they built a whole temporary building.

01:03:05   Like something is going down here.

01:03:06   And if they do this just for iPhones, it would be a terrible strategic blunder.

01:03:10   So it's not just gonna be iPhones.

01:03:13   Well, the iPhones will be great, you know,

01:03:14   I'm sure they will, and very interesting.

01:03:16   And by the way, we didn't even mention NFC,

01:03:18   with near field communications, you know,

01:03:20   the wireless thing that lets you

01:03:22   not touch your phone to something,

01:03:23   but sort of bring it nearby to sort of swipe over

01:03:26   and Apple's payment system that they're working on

01:03:28   has more and more rumors about that of, you know,

01:03:30   the deals they're making with,

01:03:31   group of just posted the deals they're making

01:03:33   with the banks to lower the fees to make, you know,

01:03:36   like it's all like all the things that we've,

01:03:38   We've been talking about NFC and iPhones for years now,

01:03:40   and now it looks like it might actually come to pass,

01:03:43   and that could be integrated with some sort of thing

01:03:45   that you wear as well.

01:03:46   So there's a lot of long rumored things coming to a head

01:03:49   in this September 9th event.

01:03:52   - Yeah, I think it's gonna be as big

01:03:55   as they're hyping it up to be,

01:03:56   because I think Apple is smart enough to know

01:03:59   not to hype up something that ends up

01:04:01   being another iPod Hi-Fi.

01:04:02   - Yeah, and by the way, I said they invited a lot of people.

01:04:05   I got invited to the event as well,

01:04:07   and much to the chagrin of everybody who knows me,

01:04:08   I will not be at the event.

01:04:10   Oh, come on.

01:04:10   Really?

01:04:11   You are the worst.

01:04:12   Yeah, I know you all hate it.

01:04:14   I hate you so much right now.

01:04:15   I mean, and so--

01:04:16   yeah.

01:04:17   So that's no heater there.

01:04:19   Trust me, there'll be plenty of people there to cover it.

01:04:22   If I went, I wouldn't be covering it.

01:04:24   Are they transferable tickets?

01:04:26   Because if so, I'm in.

01:04:27   No, there's nothing transferable.

01:04:29   Believe me, this will be a well-covered event.

01:04:31   It will be live streamed.

01:04:34   If this ends up being something really major

01:04:36   and like of historic value, you could have gone

01:04:39   and you're not going.

01:04:40   - Yeah, if I could go back in time

01:04:42   to the original Mac intro, maybe I would go.

01:04:44   I've seen a lot of Apple keynotes.

01:04:46   Like maybe I'll regret it, you're right.

01:04:47   But like I'm as exciting and important

01:04:49   as the wearable is to Apple thus far,

01:04:51   I am not particularly personally excited about a wearable.

01:04:55   - You don't even have an iPhone, of course not.

01:04:58   - That's exactly the only reason.

01:04:59   I don't even have an iPhone.

01:04:59   I might get this iPhone.

01:05:00   I could end up getting this iPhone.

01:05:03   Am I going to get a watch?

01:05:04   Look, Casey and I will watch your kids.

01:05:06   We will go to your house and watch your kids.

01:05:09   So you can go to this expense and I have to take time off work and we will buy your

01:05:12   ticket. Yeah, honestly, I am.

01:05:15   I would I would still wait.

01:05:17   I already told that I'm not going. I'm not going.

01:05:18   Ah, I would go have these with Marco on your ticket just to send your

01:05:22   curmudgeonly butt out there.

01:05:24   Oh, you are the worst.

01:05:26   Anyway, I will be watching it live with the rest of the world and I will get the

01:05:30   experience the same way.

01:05:31   I don't need to I don't need to be with the people who are actually

01:05:34   because I wouldn't be covering the event like when I go to WWDC.

01:05:37   I am doing something functional there.

01:05:39   I'm not just there for, you know, for my own edification.

01:05:44   I'm there to do research for a review that I then do.

01:05:47   So do you do anything for fun?

01:05:50   I do. Are you sure when?

01:05:56   Anyway, yeah. Don't anyway.

01:06:00   No, you're not off the hook yet, sir.

01:06:02   You have to at least give us one thing.

01:06:03   You guys can both answer this question for me.

01:06:05   I am confident.

01:06:06   What, do you do anything for fun?

01:06:08   Yeah, name some things I do for fun.

01:06:09   The answer's no.

01:06:10   No, name some things I do for fun.

01:06:11   I guess you might play a video game, but it seems like you hate-

01:06:13   Hey, that's a hard one.

01:06:14   Do you have to think a long time on that one?

01:06:16   Oh, what could he possibly do for fun?

01:06:17   And what else, Casey, do I do for fun that you can think of?

01:06:21   You watch a lot of TV.

01:06:22   And movies that I quote that you don't know.

01:06:24   Yeah, those two.

01:06:26   Don't you get angry with me, sir.

01:06:28   I'm just saying, like, what do you do for fun?

01:06:30   Like I pass through the things you know before, things that I do for fun.

01:06:33   You're like, I can't think of anything.

01:06:34   Oh God.

01:06:37   All I know is, so my dad has used to have, I guess they were like season tickets to

01:06:42   the Fillmore East, which I think was somewhere in either in New York City or

01:06:46   suburb of New York City years ago.

01:06:48   And he had like tickets to freaking every concert that was going on there.

01:06:53   And I think it was a new year's Eve show or something like that, that

01:06:56   Jimi Hendrix was playing and he thought, "Eh, well, I'll see him another time."

01:07:19   And let me tell you, my dad, I think this was like when he was roughly 20 when this

01:07:24   was an option for him.

01:07:25   He is just barely over 60 now and is still complaining about the fact that he didn't

01:07:30   go to that Jimi Hendrix concert.

01:07:32   But no, Jon, you do what you think it's like.

01:07:34   Well, Casey, I did see Steve Jobs's last keynote in person.

01:07:38   Keeping these devices in sync is driving us crazy.

01:07:43   I was sitting next to you.

01:07:45   And Marco.

01:07:46   So I feel like I didn't miss out on that.

01:07:47   And if this is Tim Cook's last keynote and I miss it in person, I'll be okay with it.

01:07:53   You are the worst.

01:07:54   I had a chance to go to the fish concert with the giant meat stick a few years

01:07:57   ago, that new year's Eve concert.

01:07:59   Somebody offered me a free.

01:08:00   Terrible.

01:08:14   And now Ben Thompson's in the chat taunting Marco and I saying, oh, well, I

01:08:19   got an invite too, but I don't think it's worth flying 26.

01:08:21   You people are terrible.

01:08:23   another person is not going. It's like, you know, we're gonna I'm gonna see the announcement in real time

01:08:27   It's not like I'm not gonna know about it. It's not a secret thing that's happening. We're all gonna see it

01:08:31   I'll probably have a better view here than I would in that giant auditorium

01:08:35   It's not like I'm gonna get a review unit. It's not like I'm going to write a review

01:08:39   I'm not even gonna cover the event. There's no reason for me to be there

01:08:42   Well, you could you would probably be invited to the hands-on area at least

01:08:45   Yeah, so you spend five seconds with it until Walt Mossberg slaps your hands away and sits at the table

01:08:50   Is that how they usually go I don't know I know I've never been in one of those hands-on rooms who knows

01:08:54   It'll be fine trust me it'll be okay, so angry at you

01:09:02   Are we done I'm so angry right now oh

01:09:06   My god

01:09:09   This is the worst we have a big after show to get to so I say we're done unless unless you can think of anything

01:09:13   Else to say about the September 9th event last chance to get in predictions

01:09:17   Hi, I have nothing bright to say I'm so angry at you right now. It's clouding my ability to think

01:09:23   Thanks to our three sponsors this week

01:09:26   Harry's Squarespace and lynda.com and we'll see you next week when John is not going to this event

01:09:34   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:09:45   Oh it was accidental.

01:09:48   John didn't do any research.

01:09:50   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:09:53   Because it was accidental.

01:09:56   It was accidental.

01:09:59   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:10:04   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:10:13   So that's Casey List, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-E-N-T-Marco-R-Men S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-Racusa

01:10:24   It's accidental (It's accidental)

01:10:28   They didn't mean to (Accidental)

01:10:31   (Accidental)

01:10:33   Tech podcast so long

01:10:37   I'm so glad you didn't know this. Casey has been yelling at me all week about it, but I didn't realize you hadn't even known.

01:10:43   This is going on. You didn't know this Marco? It seems like you didn't. No, I knew. I was just

01:10:47   saving my rage. Yeah, well you did a good job saving it. Yeah. All I know is, I see this is

01:10:54   not a joke. When you told me originally, which was around a week ago, I seriously had a mental

01:11:01   argument with myself debating whether or not to go telling your wife that you got an invite.

01:11:08   And if that- I told her as soon as I got there, what do you think? I'm keeping secrets from her?

01:11:12   I told her, she knows. We discussed it.

01:11:15   I didn't tell your wife because I didn't think that was an appropriate course of action,

01:11:20   and I didn't want to get involved in your marital stuff.

01:11:24   Well, good call, but it's silly to think that I wouldn't tell her.

01:11:27   Well, I told my wife, and she thinks you're crazy.

01:11:30   Yeah, I know. I get that a lot.

01:11:31   Ah, God, I'm so angry right now. All right.

01:11:35   Now that I'm all fired up and angry, let's talk about what's going on with women in gaming.

01:11:40   Oh, man, what a disaster that is, huh?

01:11:42   I read all these things all the time.

01:11:45   Like I follow a lot of people who are involved in the gaming industry.

01:11:48   I follow a lot of people who are women related to the gaming industry.

01:11:52   They post links to articles. I follow those links.

01:11:55   I read them. I read all the blog posts.

01:11:57   I read all like I mean, I I read a lot of gaming sites.

01:11:59   I read all these stories on them in this particular ticket.

01:12:01   I read a lot about it.

01:12:02   So I feel like I'm just soaking in and you just assume that everyone else

01:12:04   knows all the things that are happening, but they don't.

01:12:07   So that's why I think it's worth talking about because not everyone has read 9,000 articles on this already.

01:12:14   Yeah, so

01:12:17   the difficult thing to talk about this is there's no actual like the difficulty of YouTube getting up to speed is like there's no actual like

01:12:23   news there. There's nothing

01:12:25   there's nothing substantive for you to it's all like a meta story.

01:12:29   It's all a story about a story. The substantive parts like that you would think it's like a controversy where there's like one side

01:12:37   and another and they're against each other, but it's almost entirely one side.

01:12:41   It's essentially a bunch of women in the industry who are

01:12:45   fighting for more equality in the most like

01:12:50   tame, non-controversial way you could possibly imagine. The best example of this is Anita Sarkeesian's famous frequency videos.

01:12:58   She had a Kickstarter for it. Go watch these videos that she puts up. It's a critique of the treatment of women in gaming.

01:13:04   It is the most calm, like, gentle, hand-holding, like, non-controversial, like, in some ways

01:13:14   almost boring, like, just--

01:13:16   Emanently reasonable.

01:13:18   Example after example, she is not yelling at you.

01:13:21   She does not have unreasonable demands.

01:13:24   She explains things slowly and carefully in a way that people will understand with clear

01:13:28   language, right?

01:13:31   This is one example of the type of thing that drives people nuts, and that's why there's

01:13:33   is not a controversy because it's like,

01:13:35   what is it that you are opposed to in these things?

01:13:38   All right, so anyway, there's stuff like that out there.

01:13:40   There's articles about her,

01:13:41   there's articles about related issues.

01:13:42   I mean, just the general treatment of women in video games

01:13:45   and actual women who work in the gaming industry.

01:13:48   On the other side of this are people who are terrible

01:13:51   doing terrible things to other people.

01:13:53   Harassing them, posting their personal information,

01:13:56   sending them death threats, sending them terrible pictures.

01:13:58   This goes on all the time.

01:13:59   This is not new.

01:14:00   This is just a flare up of something that happens

01:14:03   time to women everywhere, not just in the gaming industry, but in particular these women

01:14:07   who are doing this terrible thing in the gaming industry by merely talking about these issues.

01:14:11   And in recent weeks it's been getting worse because the terrible people are trying to organize

01:14:17   and trying to be even more super terrible and women are leaving the industry because they can't

01:14:21   take the harassment and I don't blame them for doing it and that's like a victory fee. And so

01:14:26   it's not like you would say, "Well, there's a debate here. There's these people who did these

01:14:30   these bad things and these people got angry.

01:14:31   It's mostly just people doing bad things.

01:14:33   There's no other side to that.

01:14:35   And that's why I've been hesitant to discuss it

01:14:37   because I'm like, well, there's no story.

01:14:38   It's not like we can talk about this bad thing people did

01:14:40   and then people's overreaction to it.

01:14:41   No, we can talk about this completely tame,

01:14:44   totally rational, calm, normal, everyday thing

01:14:46   that happens all the time that is not bad in any way

01:14:50   and then these terrible people.

01:14:51   And so now this has just become a story

01:14:53   about the terrible people of like,

01:14:55   it doesn't matter what anyone,

01:14:56   even if they had done something like

01:14:58   a written a really mean blog post,

01:15:00   It doesn't matter, like they haven't,

01:15:01   it doesn't justify the crazy behavior that's going on.

01:15:03   And so I don't know what more there really is to say

01:15:08   about this other than whenever people ask me

01:15:10   about it on Twitter, my position is that the people

01:15:14   who are angry have no idea what they're angry about.

01:15:17   They think they know what they're angry about.

01:15:19   They think they're angry about ethics.

01:15:20   They think they're angry about people taking away

01:15:23   their games.

01:15:24   They think they're angry about people lying.

01:15:25   They have no idea what they're angry about.

01:15:28   It is the biggest case of self-delusion,

01:15:31   you know, like, and they will never be convinced

01:15:33   that they don't know what they're angry about.

01:15:35   What they are doing is trying, in their mind,

01:15:37   they're gonna be like, actually, what I really care about

01:15:39   is journalistic integrity in the video games.

01:15:41   Already really caring about is that someone is lying

01:15:45   or something like, they make up all these crazy conspiracy

01:15:47   theories and decide that they are really,

01:15:49   that they have a righteous cause.

01:15:50   They do not have a righteous cause.

01:15:52   What they are actually angry about has nothing to do

01:15:54   with the things they claim they're angry about,

01:15:55   which is so easy for everyone on the outside

01:15:57   bubble to see but inside the bubble that's what they really think and they're like oh well you

01:16:02   know they have a million issues they could you could just just look at any of these the reply

01:16:07   streams so any of these people and just see all the things they think they're angry about

01:16:10   these people are not angry about that they're they're they don't know the definition of

01:16:15   intellectual honesty they're intellectually dishonest both with themselves and other people

01:16:19   and it's it's just terrible and by the way this is this is gaming is where we're talking about this

01:16:25   This happens everywhere. Women are treated badly everywhere to varying degrees.

01:16:28   Like, if you don't believe it, talk to a woman in your life and ask them for stories.

01:16:33   And if they actually trust you enough, they will tell you these stories and it will sound

01:16:37   insane to you. And my advice to everyone listening to this and thinking I'm a crazy person is

01:16:41   Like, how do you... what do you do about this? Do you just like...

01:16:45   You know, what can you possibly do about it?

01:16:49   And I think that the thing that you can do about it if you are, and the odds are high,

01:16:55   a plain old American white male person listening to our tech nerd podcast

01:16:59   Just try reading these blog posts and watching these videos

01:17:04   Just like just do sort of like immersion therapy or whatever it is when you just have like

01:17:08   Just just immerse yourself in it

01:17:11   Not the ones you agree with

01:17:13   The other side the people who's saying it would be nice if women were treated better in video games

01:17:17   Just read those for like a year without saying anything

01:17:20   That's the only way I feel like you can get through to people like what you know

01:17:24   What actually what is the reality of the situation on the other side there?

01:17:27   if you just read things that you agree with or try to find things that like

01:17:29   Reinforce your own prejudices and make you feel better about the things that you feel because we were all brought up

01:17:35   We brought this up in the women's show. We're all brought up in a culture that

01:17:37   embeds in us biases, I

01:17:41   You know against all sorts of things

01:17:44   race religion

01:17:46   Gender everything we're all brought up in that environment

01:17:49   We don't want to think of ourselves as bad people. There's a cognitive distance thing going on there

01:17:52   the best thing you can do is just to immerse yourself in

01:17:54   the sort of the equality debate and

01:17:58   That's the only way I think people can get turned around because there's no way me arguing with someone on Twitter is gonna convince them

01:18:03   They're not mad about journalistic ethics and they don't know what intellectual honesty is and they have and they have really have no legitimate complaints

01:18:09   There's no way I can convince them like it's so clear that they're so far gone

01:18:13   There's no point in arguing with them

01:18:15   And the only thing I think in turn people around including people like us who are just like sort of you know

01:18:18   "Well, I'm not really involved in this. I'm not a terrible person. I'm not sending death threats.

01:18:21   I think there should be more equality in games too, but I don't want to get involved because it's a fight."

01:18:25   To get out of that mindset, I think you have to

01:18:29   really understand what's going on. And the way to really understand what's going on in a way that you might feel comfortable with is just to,

01:18:35   if you care about this issue, just to immerse yourself in it.

01:18:39   And read everything everybody has to say. It doesn't mean you have to take it all at face value,

01:18:43   but just feel like you can get a picture of it

01:18:45   that's beyond a picture that just reinforces

01:18:47   the things that make you feel good about yourself.

01:18:49   Read some things that actually make you

01:18:51   feel bad about yourself.

01:18:52   (laughing)

01:18:53   - So earlier today, and I'm not sure

01:18:56   if this is why he's bringing this up,

01:18:58   and I'm gonna bring it up and we'll see where it goes.

01:19:01   Earlier today, I made a perhaps dubious choice

01:19:06   of saying, and somebody said,

01:19:10   "We should talk about this tonight."

01:19:12   And I had said, "I'm not sure how to talk about it, and I'm not sure what to do."

01:19:17   Because I feel like, well, the people who are ostracizing women and threatening women

01:19:26   unequivocally, like Jon said, unequivocally are wrong.

01:19:29   And that's a terrible thing.

01:19:30   And how these people look at themselves in the mirror, I don't understand.

01:19:33   How they sleep at night, I don't understand.

01:19:35   It's terrible.

01:19:36   But I don't want to just shout into the echo chamber.

01:19:40   I want to try to do something to move things forward.

01:19:43   And whether or not I did a good job of portraying

01:19:46   that viewpoint on Twitter in 140 characters minus probably

01:19:50   20 or 30 characters worth of @mentions,

01:19:54   I may not have done a good job.

01:19:56   But one way or another, I said, the way

01:20:00   in which I approach this I think is nuanced.

01:20:02   And I don't think that the discussion is nuanced.

01:20:06   I think that it's unequivocally these people are jerks,

01:20:09   and that's the end of it.

01:20:10   women should be treated better. That's the end of it. But the way I approach it is a little

01:20:14   nuanced. And I got what I felt was a considerable amount of hate and a considerable amount of yelling

01:20:23   directed at me on Twitter because I had said that I wanted to think for a minute before I spoke.

01:20:30   And it really upset me a lot. And it really bothered me. And I felt

01:20:38   a little bit like I think Marco felt, I think a week or two ago, with regard to the wire cutter

01:20:43   thing. Because here it was, I felt like I was trying to just be intelligent about it rather

01:20:49   than screaming about it. And I was getting yelled at for that. And the thing that was really

01:20:58   upsetting about all this, the thing that really bothered me and continues to bother me about all

01:21:03   all this now that I've got a few hours

01:21:05   to separate myself and relax,

01:21:07   is I dealt with three hours of a handful of people

01:21:12   being meaner than I think was necessary.

01:21:17   And it kinda messed me up for a while.

01:21:21   That was three hours.

01:21:23   Nobody threatened to rape me.

01:21:25   Nobody threatened to murder me.

01:21:28   Nobody sent me disgusting pornography.

01:21:31   nobody like came to your house.

01:21:33   - Nobody said they knew your address

01:21:35   and knew your family's address

01:21:36   and were going to go and kill them.

01:21:37   And it sort of showed you pictures of your family

01:21:39   that they had taken secretly.

01:21:40   - Yes, and I felt like a piece of crap

01:21:43   after this three hours, which had none of those things.

01:21:47   And it occurred to me,

01:21:49   if I feel like a piece of just utter crap

01:21:52   after three hours of people saying,

01:21:54   "Oh, you're not doing enough.

01:21:56   You shouldn't think about that.

01:21:57   Nuanced, are you kidding me?"

01:21:59   three hours of that and I felt like I wanted to crawl in a hole and just go away for a week.

01:22:05   And that was three hours. I cannot freaking fathom what it's like to be a woman in the tech…

01:22:16   well, really at all, but in technology and especially in gaming where there's so many just

01:22:22   absolute jerks. I cannot fathom what it's like. And as much as I didn't want to go through what

01:22:28   what I went through today, which I'm not trying to play the victim.

01:22:31   Really in the grand scheme of things was not a big deal.

01:22:34   But as much as it hurt and as much as I didn't want to go through it today, I'm kind of

01:22:38   glad that that happened because it made what women go through that littlest bit more real.

01:22:46   Because I just got the tiniest, tiniest little taste and I hated it.

01:22:51   I cannot fathom what it's like to actually deal with this.

01:22:55   That's probably one of the only other ways that you could convince somebody.

01:22:58   Now, you don't have this kind of control, but if you did, if you could, you know,

01:23:02   do the Freaky Friday body swap, another movie Casey hasn't seen, and let people...

01:23:05   [laughter]

01:23:07   I have seen it.

01:23:09   Let a bunch of... the original Casey.

01:23:11   I've seen both, you big jerk.

01:23:12   All right, all right. Let a bunch of men see what it's like to actually be a woman. Because,

01:23:16   again, so many things are just in our culture. We don't see them as bad because it's like,

01:23:23   like, well, it's just the way things are.

01:23:25   And there's always something like that.

01:23:26   In every era, there's stuff like that now,

01:23:28   100 years from now, people are gonna look back on us

01:23:30   and then things that we accept as just the way things are.

01:23:33   One way you can see them is if you suddenly became a woman

01:23:35   and spent a few years as a woman,

01:23:38   and you had spent the rest of your life as a man,

01:23:40   you would be super pissed about how terrible you were treated.

01:23:43   You would be the most angry, obnoxious,

01:23:46   you would just be livid that people don't respect you,

01:23:51   treat you like a piece of meat,

01:23:53   look down on you, talk to you condescendingly,

01:23:56   just all the terrible things that happen to women

01:23:58   all the time, or even are just overly protective of you

01:24:02   or assume that you can or can't do certain things

01:24:04   or whatever, it's difficult to understand what that's like

01:24:08   if you haven't experienced that.

01:24:09   And Casey, you have the experience you had

01:24:13   of people being mean to you and stuff.

01:24:16   Imagine if that happened to you all the time

01:24:18   and then you were looking,

01:24:19   it would feel like an injustice.

01:24:22   you'd be like, "Hey, everybody knows this is happening to me, right?

01:24:24   Like what are you guys going to do about it?"

01:24:25   Because it's not just me, it's like everybody whose name is Casey is getting this kind of

01:24:28   abuse and it's not fair to people, "Just because my name is Casey, I get this kind of abuse."

01:24:32   And me and the rest of the Casey are like, "What the hell, guys?"

01:24:34   And everyone else is like, "Oh, I don't want to get involved.

01:24:35   Looks like it's a big mess."

01:24:36   Or like they don't want to get comments like this person in the chat room said, "John isn't

01:24:40   an expert on feminism.

01:24:41   He shouldn't talk about it."

01:24:42   And MTW in the chat room says, "Calling them out on it won't change anything."

01:24:47   I'm not an expert in feminism.

01:24:48   That's not a reason I shouldn't talk about it.

01:24:50   and calling them out on it like this is like negative feedback. Oh because I got

01:24:54   involved now I got to deal with negative feedback right? Well yeah I do. Calling

01:24:57   them out I won't change anything. That's why I say like arguing with people

01:25:00   trying to convince them that they're wrong is not a fruitful endeavor. The

01:25:03   people who need to be changed are the people who are good people who just feel

01:25:06   like they need to stay out of it because they're afraid of getting the kind of

01:25:10   feedback we are getting in the chat room, they're afraid of getting the kind of

01:25:12   feedback Casey got. You know that's like you have to you have to decide what you

01:25:19   think is important and if this is actually something that's important to

01:25:22   you you have to be willing to to do something about it and and it's it's

01:25:26   people like us who all agree like oh I totally agree with all these people it's

01:25:32   just that I don't want to get involved well then you're not really helping so

01:25:35   just I mean do something to help like you shouldn't be afraid that you're

01:25:39   going to do something that is going to turn you into a bad person right you may

01:25:44   do things that cause people to give you negative attention and complain about

01:25:47   about what you're doing, you may find out

01:25:51   that there are beliefs that you have,

01:25:53   like this is part of my experience of being steeped

01:25:56   in this stuff for the past several years.

01:25:57   You may find yourself having to re-examine beliefs

01:26:01   that you hadn't even thought were like beliefs at all,

01:26:03   but you're like, well, it's just the way things are.

01:26:04   You will find your own biases.

01:26:06   They will not feel good for you to find these things.

01:26:08   You will realize that you have said things

01:26:10   and done things in the past that do not live up

01:26:12   to the standards that you supposedly hold for yourself.

01:26:14   That is part of the experience.

01:26:16   but I think that is where the fruitful effort

01:26:19   can be put towards.

01:26:21   Not towards trying to save these terrible people

01:26:24   from whatever pain in their life is causing them

01:26:26   to lash out in this way, not by trying to convince them

01:26:28   that they're really not mad about journalistic ethics

01:26:30   'cause they'll never be convinced,

01:26:30   'cause they think that, you know, it's like self-delusion,

01:26:33   but by talking to the people who are already on your side

01:26:36   and just getting them to better understand the issue

01:26:40   and to be more willing to do something about it.

01:26:42   I'm not saying everybody has to jump in,

01:26:43   I'm not demanding that everyone take action

01:26:45   But like think of it if you were if everyone named Casey was constantly being harassed and the whole rest of the country was like

01:26:50   Sitting there with our arms folded you going well

01:26:52   I just don't want to get involved in that all the cases like are you kidding me like every day this happens?

01:26:56   You know and all the cases are getting harassed and everyone is like this is okay

01:27:00   Don't you feel like it's not you know it's it's you know, you know bring up the J word, but it's justice

01:27:04   It's like should this be happening. Well, no, it shouldn't be happening

01:27:07   I totally disagree with it, but it's not I can do about it there

01:27:09   there actually is like we need to make it as as

01:27:12   socially unacceptable to have these attitudes towards women. It's already socially unacceptable to harass people,

01:27:18   but it's not socially unacceptable to have all these attitudes towards women that

01:27:22   create these these terrible situations where people have

01:27:25   problems in their life and pain that they redirect in this direction. Why does it go in this direction? It's not random.

01:27:31   It's because of the media and culture that we're saturated in from the day we're born that leads in these directions.

01:27:36   And it's not just video games. It's movies, it's televisions. Everything's equally bad. Not equally bad, but it's bad everywhere.

01:27:41   It may be particularly bad in games.

01:27:43   Again, if you think this is all crazy talk, I encourage you to just watch the Feminist Frequency videos. We'll link them.

01:27:49   They are not super entertaining. You will not be blown away by witty jokes and everything like that, right?

01:27:54   Sometimes they're depressing. Sometimes they're just plain boring. Just watch them.

01:27:58   Don't, like, watch them and think you have to agree or disagree.

01:28:01   Don't watch them and think you have to go out and change the world or you have to send her angry email.

01:28:05   Just watch them. That's a start. Read articles about them. Read things that you disagree with.

01:28:11   and just try to understand the issue.

01:28:14   This is to all the good people,

01:28:15   terrible people, just go away, stop being terrible.

01:28:17   (laughing)

01:28:18   - I think it's important too, like what you said,

01:28:22   this has to become socially unacceptable

01:28:24   to a much more severe level than it is right now.

01:28:27   There are certain lines that are considered so offensive

01:28:32   and so socially unacceptable that, for instance,

01:28:35   if somebody tells, suppose you're in a small group of people

01:28:39   hanging out at a bar and somebody tells a really racist joke, like horrible racist joke.

01:28:47   In most groups of people now, that is considered so offensive that, and we have a long way

01:28:53   to go on racism as well, but in most groups of people now, that is considered so offensive

01:28:58   that somebody would be like, somebody would say something like, "Hey, that's not cool."

01:29:02   Like, you know, like you'd be called out on that for doing that in a lot of groups.

01:29:06   Not enough, but in a lot of groups.

01:29:08   And I think you'd be called out in a constructive manner

01:29:11   at this point, especially in the circles we travel in

01:29:12   of our little privileged tech nerds, right?

01:29:14   You would be called out in a way that you would not

01:29:16   immediately be ostracized from the group.

01:29:18   You would be told that that's not cool,

01:29:20   and if you argued about it,

01:29:21   then you would just do it from the outs, right?

01:29:23   But if you're like, oh, you're right, that's not cool.

01:29:26   We're trying to enforce social norms in a way

01:29:29   that doesn't, you're not immediately ejected

01:29:31   from the group if you tell a racist joke,

01:29:32   but if you tell a racist joke,

01:29:33   someone tells you it's racist and you argue with them,

01:29:35   that shows something, right?

01:29:37   or if you argue that it doesn't matter that it's racist. And so we need to get to that point with

01:29:43   sexism issues, and we're not there yet. And again, even racism, we haven't gotten to a

01:29:49   good enough point yet, but I think we're further ahead on it. People like me and Casey, people like

01:29:57   us who are wondering, "What can we do?" I think that's a big thing that everybody can do, that

01:30:02   everybody can start holding the people around them and themselves to a higher standard and to say and like

01:30:08   Call people out if they if they say something and again, you don't have to be a dick about it

01:30:14   You can do it constructively if if you could tell they didn't really mean it badly, you know

01:30:18   Like because again like as I said like this stuff is is subtle. It's it's big into our culture

01:30:23   It's it's very hard to even realize

01:30:25   Yeah

01:30:26   You won't notice it unless unless you've read 8,000 blog posts about stuff with crazy stuff that you don't agree with

01:30:32   unless you just steep yourself in it, you have to re-examine things that you just assume that are just okay,

01:30:37   that's just the way they are. Everybody has these beliefs, everybody. There is no person anywhere in the world who does not have

01:30:43   what are essentially regressive, non-rational beliefs because of the way they were brought up. And you will never examine them if you just

01:30:50   stay within the group of people that you're in, right? You have to extend yourself, you have to become uncomfortable.

01:30:56   Yeah, it's just so tough because

01:31:01   You know what the the things that bothered me that happened with me today. I

01:31:05   Think it was people that were

01:31:08   That that that were trying to defend

01:31:12   Feminism and trying to say, you know, oh this isn't nuanced. It's just plain wrong and oh your opinions aren't nuanced

01:31:19   it's either you you agree that it's wrong or you don't and

01:31:22   What I left that conversation there those conversations with

01:31:29   Even though it was conversations with people who I think by and large I agree with that. This is BS and that it is wrong. I

01:31:36   left with this feeling like oh my god, I'm never gonna talk about this again and

01:31:41   That doesn't help and

01:31:44   Just a few minutes later some person on Twitter started saying that oh tech me out

01:31:51   The tech industry is a meritocracy and oh, there's no sexism there and blah blah blah and for a minute

01:31:57   I thought—

01:31:58   Wait, somebody said that?

01:31:59   Yeah.

01:32:00   You should look at my—

01:32:01   Oh my god.

01:32:02   —at replies.

01:32:03   Oh, it was absolutely—

01:32:04   That's ridiculous.

01:32:05   Right, that's the thing.

01:32:06   And again, here it is—

01:32:08   That's worse than John not going to the Apple event.

01:32:10   Only barely, but yeah.

01:32:12   No, I'm just kidding.

01:32:13   But no, that's the thing is that to me, this is so absurd and ridiculous.

01:32:19   And this person was vehemently arguing that, "Oh, you don't know what you're talking

01:32:23   about.

01:32:24   Nursing is 92% feminine or female or what have you.

01:32:27   So clearly that's sexist.

01:32:29   Oh my God, it was so ridiculous.

01:32:31   And for a minute there, I thought, "You know what?

01:32:33   I'm just going to ignore this just completely backwards individual.

01:32:37   And I'm just going to let this go away."

01:32:38   Because I was just right off of being lectured about not wanting to shoot from the hip and

01:32:45   how wrong that was.

01:32:46   And then I thought, "You know what?

01:32:48   Screw that.

01:32:49   This person's being an idiot.

01:32:50   And I'm going to tell them they're being an idiot."

01:32:52   And this kind of gets into the conversation of should you or should you not feed the trolls?

01:32:56   And if there's anything I've learned, it's that I'm not good at drawing that line and

01:33:00   I'm not good at deciding when to feed the trolls and when not to.

01:33:04   But it felt more wrong to me to not do anything and not say anything than to take the easy

01:33:13   way out and just thinking to myself, "Well, this person is just completely backwards and

01:33:16   there's nothing I can do about it."

01:33:18   There's a lot of like tropes if you want to call them that and in this debate and like like I said in the past show

01:33:25   When we talked about you know women in the tech industry and everything

01:33:28   I'm trying not to use all the vocabulary because a

01:33:30   People who don't know what this is don't know the vocabulary and be people who do know the vocabulary

01:33:34   Find it to be charged, but one of the things that you said and that thing which caused people to flare up

01:33:38   I think is the sort of not feeding the trolls thing that is a nugget of net wisdom

01:33:44   From you know from ages ages ago, which is basically like if someone is doing someone is engaging in bad behavior online

01:33:50   Don't engage with them and they'll go away because all they want is attention

01:33:55   and that is an anti pattern when it comes to the women in tech and harassment issue because

01:34:00   That's what everyone used to say like these people would come in they would start harassing things and

01:34:04   Everyone else would say nothing because they weren't being the ones harassed and they would and they would defend this act this inaction by saying

01:34:10   "Oh, don't feed the trolls, don't engage with them."

01:34:13   Not engaging is fine when you're not

01:34:15   the target of the harassment.

01:34:16   You have the luxury of not engaging

01:34:18   and saying, "Oh, don't feed the trolls."

01:34:19   Not feeding them does not stop them

01:34:21   from doing the terrible thing

01:34:21   they're doing to their targets, right?

01:34:23   And that's why "don't feed the trolls" is such a sort of,

01:34:26   when people hear that, who are steeped in this debate,

01:34:31   they're like, you've fallen victim

01:34:33   for one of the classic blunders.

01:34:35   They just know this is one of those things,

01:34:37   like, "Oh, don't you know?"

01:34:39   everyone thinks like, oh, you should know everything

01:34:40   about this debate already.

01:34:41   Don't you know that Don't Feed the Trolls

01:34:43   is exactly the wrong thing to say?

01:34:44   But anyone who is new to this debate

01:34:46   is gonna come in and make all the same mistakes,

01:34:48   all the sort of beginner mistakes that everybody does,

01:34:50   and then you're gonna get jumped on by people

01:34:51   like, oh my God, don't you know Don't Feed the Trolls

01:34:53   is the worst thing ever?

01:34:54   You really have to stand up for these people

01:34:55   because they feed on your silence

01:34:57   and that allows them, and you know, you don't know,

01:35:01   'cause you're not steeped in this debate,

01:35:03   and so you are coming, and that's gonna happen, right?

01:35:05   That's not, you know, even within the debate,

01:35:07   There's like those arguments over tactics like how should we achieve our radical goals of not being beat on constantly?

01:35:13   Yeah

01:35:13   should we achieve them in this way by being angry people yelling should we achieve them in that way by engaging and trying to work

01:35:19   With people or is that too much compromise and like and you know Marco brought up racism before like this

01:35:23   It's not just an individual thing. There's institutional levels of all this

01:35:26   It's all down the chain of like well

01:35:28   even if at a personal level everyone feels

01:35:30   The certain way and espouses certain beliefs if as an institution as a group we behave in a different way

01:35:36   Then that perpetuates all the other things if the media we create is only created by people who unconsciously

01:35:41   Put their biases into it and that feeds our children and it's loop like this is a big

01:35:45   You know, but look at how long we've been fighting against racism and you know making progress

01:35:50   but it's very slow and sexism is you know, it's probably even gonna be harder to knock down because

01:35:56   You know in some ways you might say it's better than racism in the US anyway, but in other ways it's worse

01:36:02   They're both really bad and they're both not going to bow easily.

01:36:05   Someone in the chat was asking what we can do about it at an individual level.

01:36:11   My suggestion is at an individual level is a combination of what Margo said before, which

01:36:16   is basically if someone does something that you think that you know is bad based on your

01:36:21   current worldview of, you know, like if you see someone doing something that's sexist,

01:36:26   that's unkind to women or unkind to anybody for crying out loud, don't be like, oh, don't

01:36:30   feed the trolls. Like, you know, if you know it's wrong, do something about it even if

01:36:36   you're not the target, right? Even though you know there are going to be consequences

01:36:39   for you. That's just like, that's something you can do. Because not doing anything is

01:36:43   not an option. Not doing anything leads to the current situation. Because, you know,

01:36:47   like whatever, you know, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing,

01:36:51   right? All it takes for evil to triumph is for completely neutral, non-interested people

01:36:54   to do nothing. Just like, don't do nothing, right? And the second thing you should do

01:36:59   is try to learn about the things

01:37:02   that will reveal your own biases

01:37:04   and so you can re-examine them.

01:37:05   Like all the good people who already agree with everything,

01:37:08   who already agree that these people are terrible,

01:37:09   those are the people who we need to see.

01:37:10   Not only, we know you're not terrible like that,

01:37:13   but there are things that you are not seeing as well

01:37:16   and that once you see them,

01:37:18   it's kind of like seeing the Matrix,

01:37:20   once you see them, you're like,

01:37:21   how did I ever not see this before?

01:37:22   Many things can make you see them.

01:37:23   It could be reading blog posts,

01:37:25   it could be, as I've discussed in the past show,

01:37:26   having a daughter and finally seeing the world

01:37:28   through her eyes.

01:37:29   It could be just getting married or dating someone

01:37:31   and asking the significant other who's a woman in your life

01:37:34   what it was like for them if you don't know what that's like.

01:37:36   I mean, all these things can change your worldview.

01:37:38   And once your worldview has changed,

01:37:40   you can't see things that you thought were like normal

01:37:42   and okay as being okay.

01:37:43   You will watch TV shows that you've watched and enjoyed

01:37:45   and realize how insanely sexist they are.

01:37:47   Just like we watch like "Mad Men" now,

01:37:48   like, oh, how the '60s were so sexist, right?

01:37:50   Everything we see on our current video,

01:37:52   television and movies and entertainment

01:37:54   is exactly like that now.

01:37:56   And you can fast forward your brain

01:37:59   so that our current world looks like madmen to you.

01:38:01   And it's not an illusion.

01:38:02   That is the reality that's behind everything else.

01:38:04   And once you can see that, it will change how you act,

01:38:06   change how you raise your children,

01:38:07   change how you run your company,

01:38:09   change how you do everything.

01:38:10   That's what individuals can do.

01:38:11   The individuals who already are good people

01:38:13   can do things to affect change.

01:38:16   And that's what I would suggest for individuals,

01:38:18   what you can do.

01:38:19   Obviously, there's much more you can do.

01:38:20   The people who we're talking about are doing way more.

01:38:22   They're putting their careers, their lives,

01:38:26   their sanity on the line by trying to make changes that are much larger than

01:38:29   one person. We've got Anita Sarkeesian doing that, Brianna Wu doing

01:38:34   that. All these people who could just be quietly doing their job somewhere have

01:38:37   chosen not to, have chosen to speak out and be very loud and expose themselves

01:38:43   to harassment and criticism and abuse because they think the change is

01:38:47   important enough to do that. Those people are heroes. Not everyone can be a hero

01:38:51   but everybody can make themselves better and everyone can lend a hand, I think.

01:38:53   And don't be so... be open to the idea that you might be part of the problem, because

01:39:02   in some subtle way you probably are without realizing it.

01:39:05   And there's no shame in realizing you've been wrong about something in the past and

01:39:12   fixing it.

01:39:15   It's very hard for people to do that, but that's so much better than continuing to

01:39:20   be a part of the problem and just plug your ears and yell

01:39:24   or deny that you're part of the problem

01:39:27   or become even more a part of the problem.

01:39:30   And if any of our listeners are being part of this problem,

01:39:34   for God's sakes, cut that (horn honks) out.

01:39:37   - Yeah, I'm pretty proud of my Twitter followers

01:39:39   for the most part because a lot of people

01:39:41   when they tweet about anything like this

01:39:42   get like tons of crazy people yelling at them.

01:39:45   And for the most part, when I tweet about this

01:39:47   retweet about this. Most of the people who follow me, I think, are either not interested at all and

01:39:53   say nothing or are good people who say supportive things. But I know that is not true of other

01:39:58   people. Lots of other people say, "I accidentally retweeted something from Feminist Frequency and

01:40:02   got a million crazy people yelling at me." And I just want to say thank you to all my followers

01:40:06   for not being like those people. Well, that's the thing. Like, something that struck me,

01:40:10   especially today, having seen some of the vitriol in this individual who was trying to

01:40:17   explain to me that the technology industry is a meritocracy.

01:40:23   I travel with, both in my online circles and in meat space,

01:40:27   I travel with people that are of at least enough intelligence

01:40:32   to realize that diversity is a good thing for everybody.

01:40:38   It is a good freaking thing.

01:40:40   And it just blows my mind that so much of both America

01:40:44   in the world at large seems to think that the only people that can do anything intelligent

01:40:52   are white men.

01:40:54   How does that make any frickin' sense?

01:40:56   It just stupefies me what these people genuinely believe.

01:41:02   And I'm not going to get into politics, but there's a political side to this as well.

01:41:05   I don't understand how people can think that.

01:41:09   It is so eminently obvious to me that diversity is the way it should be.

01:41:14   Being diverse is the way it should be.

01:41:16   It's the best possible way.

01:41:20   If I just lived in a world where everyone agreed with me, I would be furious.

01:41:24   I love my wife to death and sometimes she drives me crazy because we don't see eye to

01:41:31   eye and that's part of the reason why I love her so much is because we don't see eye to

01:41:36   eye all the time.

01:41:38   Just having a "yes woman" or "yes man" around, that just sounds so mind-numbingly

01:41:44   terrible to me.

01:41:46   I'm so glad, Jon, that you have—and I think I do too, generally—have the followers that

01:41:51   realize that diversity is good.

01:41:54   But what all of us, myself very much included, don't realize is there are so many people

01:42:00   out there that are backwards, that do live in 50, 100, 200 years ago and think that women

01:42:07   are evil and black people are stupid and it's just how can you think that how is that a

01:42:12   reasonable course of action in 2014?

01:42:14   Yeah, for the gaming industry in particular, it's like, again, I don't think this is the

01:42:19   approach I don't think you should try to convince people, like the terrible people that are

01:42:23   not terrible, but like, it's easier to convince the people who are sort of neutral or like

01:42:27   don't want to get involved or think they're just fine because they're not terrible. If

01:42:32   you just like look at it from a business perspective, like there's enough evidence people done this

01:42:37   with the movies too.

01:42:38   Like, there is a, you know, we just went over the demographics a couple shows ago, like,

01:42:42   you know, 48% of gamers are women, there's more adult women who play games than males

01:42:46   under 18, right?

01:42:48   This is an unserved market.

01:42:50   Like just from economic business point of view, like, replace women and men with some

01:42:54   other demographic that is less politically charged for your perspective, this is an underserved

01:42:59   market.

01:43:00   These people are buying things, they're buying games that were not made with them in mind

01:43:03   at all.

01:43:04   games that are terrible to them, that objectify women, that don't have their interest in mind.

01:43:08   And it's not just women. There are huge underserved markets in the gaming world.

01:43:14   And how are you going to make products to serve these markets? You can't just take the existing

01:43:18   teams of people who know how to make games for straight male gamers. You'll never serve those

01:43:23   markets with these people, or at least it'll be a hell of a lot harder. Hire some people with

01:43:27   different points of view who want to make different kinds of games. It's just like movies

01:43:33   in the theaters recently with female leads have been doing better than those with male

01:43:38   leads and there's like action movies and stuff like that.

01:43:40   And yet still, like, I mean, movies are more progressive than games in this regard.

01:43:45   Just look at like the Isometric Podcast, a gaming podcast with a bunch of women that

01:43:48   came out of nowhere and became very popular.

01:43:50   Why?

01:43:51   Because it's an underserved market.

01:43:52   Gaming podcasts mostly hosted by women, there's not enough of those.

01:43:55   There's not enough good ones of those.

01:43:56   There's lots of good podcasts hosted by men.

01:43:58   Those are good.

01:43:59   Those are fine.

01:44:00   You want to listen to them?

01:44:01   Fine.

01:44:02   There are people out there who are not having games made for them by people who understand

01:44:07   what they might like.

01:44:08   Ignore everything else.

01:44:09   It's just a stupid business sense.

01:44:11   Same thing with Hollywood, making the same stupid movies all the time.

01:44:16   Figure it out, people.

01:44:17   You can make more money and sell more games and more products.

01:44:21   I mean, Apple, to its credit, does a little bit better at figuring it out.

01:44:24   Apple does not make things just for straight white males.

01:44:27   They try to make things that appeal to lots of people.

01:44:30   possible thing. Do you like high technology? Do you like, I mean, they're going to go into

01:44:34   the fashion world. They have to make things that are interesting to people who care about

01:44:39   a diversity of issues. Do they just feature men in their commercials? Do they just feature

01:44:43   old people? Do they just feature children? Do they just, like, no, they show everybody,

01:44:47   they're trying to make products for everybody. You make more money that way, people. So that's

01:44:50   my gaming industry talk. If you are making games, if you are selling games, if you are

01:44:55   thinking of what games you're going to sell, if you're making a gaming product, half of

01:44:59   "But your buyers or women don't have your product made entirely by men for men."

01:45:03   And you say, "Oh, my products are made entirely by men, but they're not entirely for men."

01:45:07   It is almost impossible to have a product made entirely by men and not have that product

01:45:11   end up being a little bit more for men than otherwise. Because again, everyone's got all our

01:45:15   unconscious biases and we're really familiar with what we like, not so familiar with

01:45:19   what different type of people like. And replace gender with any other axes along which

01:45:23   people can vary. Economic background, age, race,

01:45:27   everything. That's like you said, Casey, diversity. People

01:45:29   think it's a dirty word. It's like it's just good business

01:45:31   sense. It just makes sense. You're leaving money on the

01:45:34   table. It also just makes you a better person. You know, like

01:45:38   it it broadens your world view to to bring more diversity into

01:45:43   your life, into your work and it makes you a better person to

01:45:46   not be aggravating these tensions, to not to not be

01:45:50   attacking people over trivial matters and and it you know,

01:45:55   some people are just miserable

01:45:56   and they're gonna do this regardless.

01:45:58   And I don't know how to solve that problem.

01:46:00   I don't think anybody really does know

01:46:01   how to solve that problem.

01:46:02   It's a terrible problem, but I don't know how to solve it.

01:46:05   But even if you're the kind of miserable person

01:46:09   who likes being very argumentative,

01:46:11   you can win more arguments if you take the high road

01:46:14   and don't leave people these areas

01:46:15   to attack what you're saying.

01:46:17   Like if you're some kind of awful sexist person

01:46:20   making awful sexist comments,

01:46:23   every time you try to win an argument about anything else,

01:46:25   you're gonna lose because of that.

01:46:27   And there's just so many reasons why it,

01:46:30   you know, even if you can't be motivated

01:46:33   by being a better person, which is unfortunate,

01:46:36   there are so many other reasons why you should do this.

01:46:38   But ultimately, I think the best thing we can really do

01:46:41   is, you know, what we said earlier,

01:46:43   just encourage the people who actively are trying,

01:46:47   or actively are intending to make things better,

01:46:50   and actively would like to help, to actually help.

01:46:54   Give them the tools and the social permission

01:46:59   to actually help.

01:47:01   It's important to realize,

01:47:03   like I saw Brianna Wu talking, I think,

01:47:06   earlier today or yesterday about how she's never talked

01:47:10   to a man who thought he was part of the problem

01:47:13   or something like that.

01:47:14   All of us listening, we all probably think,

01:47:19   oh well, we aren't part of the problem.

01:47:21   It's all the other people.

01:47:23   the other guys are the part of the problem.

01:47:25   But that's probably not true,

01:47:26   we probably are part of the problem

01:47:27   in ways you don't realize.

01:47:28   And so it's just so important to keep an open mind

01:47:30   about that and to add people to our social circles

01:47:35   like Brianna and like anyone who will help

01:47:40   point these things out to us when we do things

01:47:43   or say things that are unintentionally harmful to somebody.

01:47:47   I would like to know that, it's like having my fly open.

01:47:49   Like I would like somebody to tell me that, you know?

01:47:52   Because that's a problem that I would like to fix

01:47:56   rather than denying that it exists.

01:47:58   - The invisible fly that you can't see

01:47:59   until someone points out.

01:48:00   Did you know you have a fly, and by the way, it's open?

01:48:02   Yeah, that's, I mean--

01:48:03   - And by the way, it's archived forever,

01:48:04   and anyone can see it forever.

01:48:07   - If you're on these social networks,

01:48:08   that's another thing you've done.

01:48:09   And it takes a conscious effort that, you know,

01:48:11   I've been trying to do this over the past few years

01:48:13   with mixed results, but like I keep trying.

01:48:16   Follow people who you wouldn't normally follow, right?

01:48:19   And so you can see what they have to say.

01:48:21   read their blogs, like go outside of your comfort zone

01:48:24   or your normal thing, make a conscious effort

01:48:26   to expose yourself to these viewpoints.

01:48:29   If there is some kind of standard bearer

01:48:31   for a particular movement that you agree with in principle

01:48:34   but don't really know what you can do about,

01:48:35   just follow that person.

01:48:37   And again, every movement has different people.

01:48:38   There's always, there's your Malcolm X,

01:48:40   there's your Martin Luther King Jr.

01:48:42   Like there's the whole spectrum of people.

01:48:44   Maybe you don't like one person's approach,

01:48:46   maybe you like another person's approach,

01:48:47   but maybe you'd rather see a video or a blog

01:48:49   or read a Twitter feed, but just open yourself up to them.

01:48:53   And you don't have to do anything about it

01:48:54   like in the beginning, just let yourself see

01:48:56   what they have to say.

01:48:58   And if you follow them, maybe you'll find

01:49:00   it needs to reply, maybe they'll reply back to you,

01:49:02   and maybe that one time you say something

01:49:03   that you need to get called up on,

01:49:05   maybe they'll be there to call you out on that.

01:49:07   If you happen to have a lot of Twitter followers

01:49:09   like we do, make it a point to amplify the voices

01:49:12   of people who normally don't get heard,

01:49:14   or who are, if you're an individual Casey

01:49:18   in your house being harassed by the Casey haters,

01:49:20   you would really like it if someone with a large audience

01:49:22   would amplify your message that,

01:49:24   hey, by the way, did you know someone keeps

01:49:25   putting a flaming C on my lawn every morning

01:49:27   'cause the anti-Casey people hate all Casey's

01:49:29   and this has been going on for years

01:49:30   and it seems like you guys don't care.

01:49:32   Just so you know, I'm out here, I'm getting harassed.

01:49:35   Amplify those signals to your audience of people.

01:49:39   And if you find yourself saying,

01:49:41   yeah, I would do that, I agree with them in principle,

01:49:44   but I don't wanna be like that guy

01:49:46   and have all the people who are following me

01:49:48   be like angry and be like,

01:49:49   we just wanna hear you talk about technology.

01:49:51   Don't talk about this.

01:49:51   It's like, well, decide, do you care about this

01:49:53   or do you not care about it?

01:49:54   Do you think all your followers are terrible anti-Casey

01:49:57   people or are they, you know,

01:49:59   like do you really want these people following you?

01:50:01   Like what do you actually care about?

01:50:02   You can't say, well, I agree in principle,

01:50:04   but I don't wanna do anything

01:50:05   that inconveniences me in any way.

01:50:06   Like at some point you have to,

01:50:08   some point you have to put your aura in.

01:50:10   - No, it's so true.

01:50:11   And one of the best things I've done in regard to this

01:50:17   is following Brianna Wu, who is SpaceCatGal on Twitter,

01:50:21   and seeing things through her eyes,

01:50:26   to the best as one can through Twitter,

01:50:28   is so fascinating and so enlightening.

01:50:31   And if you follow her and you get tired

01:50:35   of all the things that she's saying

01:50:36   about women in tech and whatnot,

01:50:38   because she says it a lot, then you know what?

01:50:40   Imagine what it's like to deal with that.

01:50:43   Like you're getting one, a hundredth

01:50:45   of what she has to deal with.

01:50:47   - Right, and you can turn yours off whenever you want to.

01:50:49   Whereas like women have to live with this every day.

01:50:52   - Exactly, and there are times I'm like,

01:50:55   holy crap, Rihanna, relax for a second.

01:50:57   Then I'm like, what are you talking about?

01:50:58   No, don't relax, this is terrible.

01:51:00   - But I would say like, you know,

01:51:02   it's not like you have to follow any specific person

01:51:03   because if Rihanna's approach to this problem

01:51:05   is off-putting to you, that's fine.

01:51:07   You can still not agree with her approach

01:51:09   to solving this problem.

01:51:10   Find someone else to read to follow or whatever.

01:51:12   Like there's a lot, like, just because you don't agree

01:51:14   with someone's tactics does not mean you, like,

01:51:16   I don't feel like you need to expose yourself

01:51:18   to some tactics that you find are off-putting, right?

01:51:21   But you should expose yourself to the viewpoint.

01:51:23   There are plenty of viewpoints out there.

01:51:25   There is a viewpoint that you will feel comfortable with

01:51:27   that can expose you to things you haven't thought of,

01:51:29   that can show you the experiences of other people.

01:51:31   And, you know, it's going to make you

01:51:33   a little bit uncomfortable.

01:51:34   I'm not saying like, you know,

01:51:35   like don't make your Twitter stream filled with like,

01:51:38   find the angriest person you can.

01:51:40   And by the way, as I said before,

01:51:41   I feel like if I was forced to switch genders right now,

01:51:43   I would be the angriest feminist the world has ever seen.

01:51:46   And so would most men, because we would just be incensed

01:51:49   at the injustice of being treated the way women

01:51:51   are treated all the time, because we know what it's like

01:51:52   on the other side.

01:51:54   Or changing to be black in the US or any other type of thing

01:51:57   or changing to be super short or like any other thing

01:52:01   that like is bad, not you Mark, you know.

01:52:03   (laughing)

01:52:04   Like this, you know, all of us would be just totally enraged

01:52:10   have to deal with any sort of prejudice that we don't that we didn't grow up with right

01:52:14   uh and so what you're just trying to do is be aware of those things somehow by exposing

01:52:20   yourself to different viewpoints uh we can put a list of people in the show notes everyone

01:52:24   on isometric would be great to follow this but even just like right like uh what's her

01:52:28   last name i always mispronounce it i'll put in the show notes susan aren't is that her

01:52:33   name i'm asking you guys you don't know remember you are the pronunciation agent for our show

01:52:37   Yeah, female journalists in the game industry, if they have been there for a while, they

01:52:42   have a valuable viewpoint.

01:52:43   They probably have something interesting to say on this topic.

01:52:45   And increasingly, like you can find the crazy terrible people who are making this big like

01:52:49   list of people who you should hate because they support equality and list of websites

01:52:55   you shouldn't visit.

01:52:56   Go find that list, you know, from these terrible websites and like follow those people and

01:53:00   read what they have to say, like use it for the opposite purpose.

01:53:03   uh yeah susan it's a-r-e-n-d-t but i guess it's just aren't anyway uh she's great i enjoy her

01:53:12   uh samus clone on uh on twitter maddie myers uh from uh isometric as well as another good person

01:53:18   to follow uh point is there there are things out there for you to follow and to read uh

01:53:25   something will suit your needs uh the worst thing you can do is nothing

01:53:28   and also i highly recommend wearing button fly pants because then your fly will never be

01:53:33   open accidentally, among other benefits. They really are better.

01:53:39   So much work though. No, see you get past it. Like, it's, you

01:53:45   know, you have to convert all your pants at once. You can't just have like one buttonfly

01:53:48   pair because then you'll hate them. But once you have, once you've converted to buttonfly,

01:53:53   you'll realize how superior they really are. And they loosen up after like the first couple

01:53:57   of days. That's the thing is unbroken in buttonfly

01:54:01   pants are the worst. Yeah, but that's like literally it's like a couple of days and then

01:54:05   then they're fine and they're nice. You know, then this is the worst the most inappropriate

01:54:09   segue of topics ever going from they really are better but pervasive systemic sexism to

01:54:16   flies on pants, you know, both both genders can wear button fly pants and often do this

01:54:23   is this is not a gender issue. I mean there there is a benefit to men. There's a there's

01:54:27   an extra safety involved there, but most of the benefits apply to both genders.

01:54:32   Oh, God. I think we should stop. Does that mean we're done with this topic

01:54:36   now? We're never going to be done with this topic.

01:54:39   This topic is not going to go away in our lifetimes, and I think we should keep talking

01:54:42   about it regularly. Yeah, it will come up again on the show,

01:54:46   I'm sure. It's sad that it only comes up when things get super bad, but that's just

01:54:52   the nature of it's just the nature of a topical show yeah it's homework for

01:54:58   everybody who listens yeah seriously do do something nice for for a woman in

01:55:03   your life and you'll be better for it and keep an open mind about pants as

01:55:08   well except for the people in the chat who are saying a velcro fly what you

01:55:13   got to be kidding that's the worst of everything skip that I I think we're

01:55:17   done I I got more fired up about that than I expected

01:55:19   God makes me so angry.

01:55:21   No, I think this is I think I think we

01:55:24   we're not going to regret having talked about this for this long.

01:55:27   If you guys like

01:55:29   Bionic, which I still have never listened to, but it sounds like

01:55:32   the type of show like you like Bionic, you should try asymmetric

01:55:36   because you're like, well, I'm not interested in games.

01:55:38   It's barely a game about games.

01:55:41   Just try it.

01:55:42   Throw throw a couple episodes in your podcast feeds and see what you think.

01:55:47   Yeah, I actually I did.

01:55:49   I did listen to a few, but they were pretty gaming heavy.

01:55:51   Yeah, I guess. I mean, I guess it is like, I guess.

01:55:54   I mean, it depends if they spending a long time talking about hand turkeys,

01:55:56   then that's not gaming related, but I guess they do spend some time on stuff.

01:56:00   But anyway, I find the show amusing in the same way.

01:56:01   It seems like you guys found Bionic amusing and it's like,

01:56:04   what is the show really about?

01:56:05   It's a lot of nonsense, a lot of fun. But.

01:56:07   Anyway, it's it's it's a viewpoint that usually don't hear like I don't.

01:56:12   There's a couple of gaming podcasts that I've listened to,

01:56:14   but none really regularly.

01:56:15   and I find myself listening to this one because it's like it's

01:56:18   it's viewpoints I don't get elsewhere.

01:56:20   Yeah, I'll give it another shot, because I want to hear that cast talk.

01:56:24   Like I follow most of them on Twitter.

01:56:27   Like I want to hear them talk, but I just I'm so not I'm so not a gamer.

01:56:32   Yeah, I feel I feel the same way.

01:56:35   There's a lot of references and vocabulary and, you know, like

01:56:38   they just assume everyone knows what these things are

01:56:41   and have a little discussion about it.

01:56:43   And it's like I don't have the context to even know what it is

01:56:45   you're talking about but i mean i don't know maybe casey will notice he's a lapsed gamer or whatever

01:56:49   i think casey and i are probably equally lapsed or similarly lapsed yeah i was actually about to

01:56:54   say that you're the bigger x gamer than i i think so you and i can fight over who's the who who used

01:57:00   to be a bigger gamer and is it is the worst gamer now and i think it's good actually to listen to

01:57:05   the show because if you only follow like like uh brianna or maddie on twitter and you only see them

01:57:11   as like the person who is, you know, fighting for equality and being the victim of harassment and

01:57:16   everything like that, you might start to forget that they're actual people. You listen to an

01:57:20   aspect of the age symmetric, you will realize they're actual normal people who just like,

01:57:24   they don't spend their entire time just being angry about feminism, like, which is the crazy

01:57:28   viewpoint people might get if they just like, well, they only ever see them when they're

01:57:31   retweeted by somebody a million times or whatever. Like, these are people, these are actual people

01:57:37   who have actual interests and lives and jobs and families and feelings and all this stuff.

01:57:42   That is a side benefit of happening to listen to a podcast of these type of people who are active on

01:57:48   these issues to realize just because you're active on this issue, it's like, "Oh my God,

01:57:52   they're regular people too, imagine." Yeah, the reason I haven't listened to it yet is because,

01:57:58   not at all because of the hosts. In fact, everything I've heard is that the hosts have

01:58:02   have an incredible amount of chemistry,

01:58:05   but because I am completely ignorant and clueless

01:58:09   about anything video game related,

01:58:13   I just kind of assumed that I would be completely lost.

01:58:16   - You should listen to the episode where Steve admits

01:58:18   that he's never seen Terminator 2

01:58:20   and then he watches it and didn't like it.

01:58:22   He is the Casey List of that show.

01:58:24   - Thanks, I think.

01:58:26   (laughing)

01:58:28   - Wow.

01:58:29   - How do you really feel, John?

01:58:30   - I don't think I've seen it.

01:58:31   Oh, you're perfect.

01:58:33   - I've seen it.

01:58:34   I've seen it.

01:58:34   I've seen it many times.

01:58:35   - Ding.

01:58:37   - Brianna's only said this on Twitter,

01:58:38   but I can't wait for the episode where she talks

01:58:40   about how much she likes the prequels,

01:58:41   the Star Wars prequels.

01:58:42   - Oh my God, that's gonna be amazing.

01:58:45   - I told you this is a diversity of opinions.

01:58:47   Some of them are terribly wrong, but they're diverse.

01:58:50   - You know, for what it's worth,

01:58:52   Terminator 2 and Top Gun were the two movies

01:58:56   that we had on Laserdisc that we,

01:58:59   well, now we had many movies on Laserdisc.

01:59:00   laser disc player. Yeah, yeah. But no, no, no. But the thing of it is, these two movies

01:59:04   in particular were amazing for using the scroll wheel that was on the remote control. Do you

01:59:11   know what I'm talking about? So it was kind of like, what do you call the thing on the

01:59:15   iPod, the click wheel or whatever you call it? But there was no clicking to it. But you

01:59:19   could go frame by frame because it was digital. Well, it kind of wasn't. You're right. It

01:59:25   It was weird, like it represented analog video signals on a digital medium.

01:59:31   It was very strange.

01:59:32   I'm not too familiar with the details, but...

01:59:34   One of the things was digital.

01:59:35   Was it the audio that was digital?

01:59:36   Audio I believe was digital, but the video was not.

01:59:40   It was weird, yeah.

01:59:41   It was digital-ish.

01:59:42   Yeah, it was very strange.

01:59:44   So the point I'm driving at though is when T2, the Terminator thing, would come out of

01:59:48   the wrecked 18 wheeler, spoiler alert,

01:59:51   and go from like liquid to person.

01:59:55   I remember just sitting there with the remote control

01:59:57   spinning backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards,

01:59:59   watching the special effect go frame by frame,

02:00:02   and it was amazing.

02:00:03   And then Top Gun was awesome

02:00:04   because it was a perfect example of surround sound,

02:00:07   which back in whatever the hell year this was,

02:00:09   was like a really new thing to have at home.

02:00:12   And oh my goodness, it was amazing.

02:00:17   somethingologist in the chat-ish-tologist,

02:00:21   says the controller in the remote

02:00:22   was a jog shuttle controller.

02:00:23   Some of the higher end VCRs had them too.

02:00:25   That's what I'm talking about.

02:00:26   And yeah, it was amazing.

02:00:28   Laserdiscs was better than, laserdiscs were better than,

02:00:32   I think they got credit for.

02:00:33   - Oh, we just, I forgot we had this.

02:00:35   You want to throw in a markdown?

02:00:36   Because we're never going to get to it

02:00:37   once the September 9th event comes in as well.

02:00:40   - Whatever, let's do it.

02:00:41   - Yeah, let's do it.

02:00:42   What the hell?

02:00:42   - Cut out all this stuff by laserdiscs in the middle.

02:00:43   - Yeah, yeah.

02:00:44   - Tag the stuff on with it, but yeah.

02:00:45   I think we can dispense with this quickly because we all agree.

02:00:48   I'm keeping in the pants stuff though.

02:00:49   All right, go for it.

02:00:50   Of course.

02:00:51   Button fly agenda.

02:00:52   Let's talk about markdown, standard markdown, complex markdown, conventional markdown, whatever

02:00:58   the current flavor is, strict markdown.

02:01:03   Can one of you give me a quick summary about this?

02:01:05   All right, so the summary is John Gruber made markdown a long time ago.

02:01:08   He likes it.

02:01:09   Other people think there are problems with it, but they want to use variants of markdown.

02:01:14   There are many variants of Markdown that exist.

02:01:16   There's multi Markdown, there's GitHub-flavored Markdown, there's all sorts of different kinds

02:01:20   of Markdown.

02:01:21   One particular person has been upset with the way John Gruber's Markdown works for a

02:01:25   long time.

02:01:26   That's Jeff Atwood of Coding Horror.

02:01:28   He made a blog post two years ago that said, "I really wish that Markdown could be better

02:01:32   maintained and better defined and the spec could reduce ambiguities and bugs could be

02:01:37   fixed because we all want to use Markdown, but everybody uses a different implementation

02:01:41   of Markdown.

02:01:42   It's just a giant mess."

02:01:44   So recently he came out with something that he was calling standard markdown, which was

02:01:47   a much more highly specified variant of markdown where they removed or reduced, vastly reduced

02:01:56   the ambiguities in language to say this is how we want it to work, here's a test suite,

02:02:01   here's sample implementations, here's a specification, there if everyone complies with this we will

02:02:06   help markdown the degrees with each other and everything will be fine.

02:02:09   That was all well and good except for the fact that he called it standard markdown,

02:02:13   which was a slap in the face to Gruber,

02:02:15   because how can, he might as well have called it

02:02:18   the official real markdown.

02:02:19   (laughing)

02:02:20   That might as well have been the name.

02:02:22   The one and only genuine official real markdown.

02:02:24   That was a bad choice of name, it's for many, many reasons.

02:02:28   It makes it seem like that this is the one

02:02:31   and only official markdown, when that is clearly

02:02:32   not the case, there's a million different kinds of markdown.

02:02:34   It makes it seem like they are the people

02:02:37   who sort of own and control markdown,

02:02:38   which is not the case, they don't own and control markdown.

02:02:41   And so that was dumb.

02:02:43   And it's a shame because I agree with the goals

02:02:46   of a better markdown specification,

02:02:48   even though I don't like markdown.

02:02:50   But I don't agree with the idea of calling your thing

02:02:53   the one and only superficial, totally the main,

02:02:55   forget about all other ones markdown.

02:02:57   They should have, you know, used a different name.

02:03:03   Like just, and here's the thing about the name.

02:03:05   If they had picked a different name, like football,

02:03:07   like that was the name, just football,

02:03:09   that would have been fine too.

02:03:11   Like, I don't think it would have hurt their cause at all.

02:03:13   Anyway, they since renamed it to Common Markdown.

02:03:16   - I don't see how that's any real--

02:03:18   - Well, no, here's the best thing about that.

02:03:19   I don't know if you read this.

02:03:20   - I think it's slightly less terrible.

02:03:22   - Well, no, but here's the best thing about the post.

02:03:23   Like, I read it beforehand.

02:03:24   It starts off good, it's like, we're sorry,

02:03:26   we made a mistake, John Gruber made demands,

02:03:30   he wants us to take down our domain,

02:03:31   standardmarkdown.com, not have it redirected.

02:03:34   He wants us to rename our thing

02:03:35   and he wants us to apologize.

02:03:36   And he did all those things, but what they renamed it to

02:03:39   was like we sent a bunch of these names

02:03:41   and we said what about this name, that name,

02:03:43   and the other name, and we didn't get a reply

02:03:44   so we're using common markdown.

02:03:46   What are you doing?

02:03:46   You can't change the name, like the whole point is

02:03:49   call it something that doesn't have markdown in the name,

02:03:52   you're fine with that, call it whatever you want,

02:03:53   call it hand turkey, call it whatever you want.

02:03:57   That's fine, right?

02:03:59   Or call it something with markdown in the name

02:04:02   that Groober approves of.

02:04:03   You can't say we're gonna do everything you say,

02:04:05   we're gonna rename it and we'll send you a suggestion

02:04:06   of a name, but we got tired of waiting

02:04:08   So we just picked one that we felt like it and common is not really much better

02:04:11   It sounds like it's like common lisp. Like it sounds like the official one and only like

02:04:15   They're sabotaging their own cause their own cause is good

02:04:19   I think it is good to have what they're doing technically is good what they're doing socially is bad

02:04:23   It's very bad and they seem to just like it's like shoot themselves in the foot reload the gun point at the other foot and

02:04:30   Yeah, like just grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory here

02:04:35   I mean and that's the thing with this like, you know following Jeff I follow Jeff Atwood loosely and

02:04:41   And even following him loosely I've seen ever since they started Stack Overflow

02:04:46   How many years ago was that eight years ago? It's it's been a long time ever since they started Stack Overflow

02:04:53   Which which included markdown?

02:04:55   Jeff Atwood has been

02:04:58   very hostile dismissive and condescending towards John Gruber and his ownership of markdown and

02:05:05   The hostility has been so clear the entire time. It's it's very very clear that Jeff does not respect John

02:05:12   And and that and and that Jeff feels that he is entitled and yeah, and now there's other people involved

02:05:19   But but I think I think Jeff was pretty much running it for a while and probably is still very important in this process

02:05:24   This group of people very much obviously feels that they have the right to co-opt markdown

02:05:32   because Gruber has not done that much with it recently.

02:05:36   And the fact that it has not changed

02:05:39   in the better part of a decade,

02:05:41   that, like, there's so many,

02:05:44   I got into this a little bit on Twitter earlier,

02:05:45   like, there are so many bad counterarguments

02:05:47   people keep making to try to support

02:05:49   what they're doing here.

02:05:51   One of those bad counterarguments is,

02:05:53   well, Gruber hasn't touched it in like a decade.

02:05:55   Well, yeah, the MP3 file format hasn't changed

02:05:59   in a few decades, neither has the JPEG file format.

02:06:01   Like there are things that don't change,

02:06:03   that doesn't mean they're neglected or abandoned.

02:06:05   - But that doesn't matter.

02:06:06   Like I mean, it doesn't matter whether it's changed.

02:06:09   It doesn't, none of that really matters.

02:06:11   That's like-- - Yeah, it's true.

02:06:11   - That's explaining why Jeff is frustrated.

02:06:14   That's what it explains.

02:06:15   Why are people frustrated?

02:06:16   Why are people doing this all?

02:06:18   John Gruber's stewardship of Markdown explains

02:06:20   why people have the feelings they feel, right?

02:06:22   'Cause I think that is, you know,

02:06:24   and I share those feelings, frankly.

02:06:25   Like I don't even use Markdown, so I don't care.

02:06:27   But I share, like, but then what do you do

02:06:29   with those feelings?

02:06:30   That's where the rubber hits the road.

02:06:31   Like, hey, I feel frustrated.

02:06:33   Then what?

02:06:34   Then do you demand that something happens?

02:06:36   No, 'cause you have no right to the demand.

02:06:38   Would you like to fork it?

02:06:39   By all means, to call it whatever you want.

02:06:42   You know, make your own thing.

02:06:43   Like, you have so much freedom available

02:06:45   to you to do these things.

02:06:46   And Gruber is even okay with things like multi-Mark Hammon

02:06:49   and GitHub Markdown.

02:06:50   They ask him, hey, we're GitHub, we're gonna make,

02:06:52   I assume that, I think GitHub Markdown

02:06:53   asks for permission, right?

02:06:54   We're gonna make some variant of Markdown.

02:06:56   We'd like to call it X, Y, and Z.

02:06:57   Thumbs up or thumbs down?

02:06:59   Why does he have the quote unquote right to give that?

02:07:02   Because he made Markdown.

02:07:03   It's a name that he made up for a thing that he made.

02:07:05   Like, it's just common courtesy.

02:07:08   Like, it's just, ignore all legalities entirely.

02:07:11   It's just like, it's just common courtesy.

02:07:13   Like, you're gonna say like,

02:07:15   "Well, if Markdown didn't exist,

02:07:16   "I would have made my own thing."

02:07:17   Maybe you would have, but it wouldn't be called Markdown,

02:07:19   would it?

02:07:19   It would be called whatever the hell name you made up.

02:07:21   So make up your own name.

02:07:22   And so like, the technical issues are just all,

02:07:24   and like, you know, the entitlement or whatever,

02:07:27   Like, that is all just an explanation of why people feel the way they feel, but none of

02:07:31   it justifies the actions that are going on.

02:07:32   And the actions, and justified like in terms of just, not even like morally or ethically

02:07:37   or legally, but just like being a nice person-ly, whatever word that is.

02:07:43   And even practically speaking, forget about being a nice person, practically speaking,

02:07:47   if you want your project to be successful, like don't shoot it, like don't get it off,

02:07:52   start off on the wrong foot.

02:07:53   Like, there's no reason, I totally applaud this effort, the technical effort they've

02:07:56   gone through to try to standardize what is an ill-specified, just probably untenable

02:08:03   markup system to be everything in spite of it. Like, they've made a heroic effort and

02:08:07   then they just destroy it all by doing something jerky. Like, why? Why would you do this?

02:08:10   Yeah, it's so unnecessary. Like, they, you know, no one is objecting to them making a

02:08:17   standardized markdown syntax. No one is objecting to that. The only thing people are objecting

02:08:23   to legitimately is the name.

02:08:26   or what the name represents. Co-opting, trying to co-op something, that's what it's like. The name

02:08:31   is the embodiment of that attempt to co-op, but the name is like, we are trying to co-op this

02:08:35   thing because we feel like it has not been maintained. Even the attitude in Jeff's post

02:08:40   tonight that they, that after the public outcry from a lot of people about standard markdown,

02:08:46   which is an incredibly arrogant name, to co-opt someone else's project and call yours the standard,

02:08:53   after that, this post saying that they renamed it calm markdown, it's like we

02:08:57   what he basically says is, uh, so we replied to John Gruber with these list of names that all

02:09:05   still contain the word markdown and are all compatible markdown, regular markdown, like,

02:09:12   I mean, Gruber said he's okay. He's okay with like some variant of markdown like, but you know,

02:09:17   he's like he gave like pedant pedantic markdown was it that he thought he might have, but the

02:09:21   But the whole point is--

02:09:22   He said strict markdown, which I think

02:09:24   that would be descriptive.

02:09:26   I would not be OK with strict markdown

02:09:27   either, because that still sounds like--

02:09:29   What they should do is don't use the word markdown at all.

02:09:33   That would leave them completely in the clear,

02:09:37   morally, argumentatively, and let their project proceed

02:09:41   into something productive.

02:09:42   Right now, it's always going to have this asterisk on it.

02:09:46   It's always going to be controversial.

02:09:48   And the worst thing is-- so if you read this post--

02:09:51   So Jeff said, so Gruber and them,

02:09:54   he, Gruber apparently sent them an email.

02:09:57   They reply back with this list of suggestions last night.

02:10:01   And tonight, since they hadn't received a response

02:10:04   in 24 hours, they just picked one of their suggestions

02:10:07   and assumed Gruber's okay with it.

02:10:09   - You were reading the post while I said that before,

02:10:10   but yes.

02:10:11   - Like, I can't.

02:10:13   - Like, why go forward?

02:10:14   You know you haven't gotten permission.

02:10:17   That is so, it's so rash and unnecessarily inflammatory.

02:10:22   Like seriously, just call it something else.

02:10:24   You will avoid all of these problems.

02:10:26   Just call it anything else so that your project can have

02:10:30   100% credibility without all this controversy.

02:10:35   There is no reason, and even this post,

02:10:38   the way they went about this and the way they just assumed

02:10:41   they had permission after 24 hours of no objection.

02:10:44   - It's like what's the hurry?

02:10:45   - That's so arrogant, that is so just,

02:10:49   that's a terrible move, it's such a huge dick move.

02:10:52   - It's attempting to force someone's hand,

02:10:55   by like, well, we didn't hear it for you for a day,

02:10:56   so we're just gonna go forward with this,

02:10:57   and that's gonna force you to react,

02:10:58   and he's not playing that game, and it's just ridiculous.

02:11:00   - Yeah, this is awful, I mean,

02:11:03   I don't think Jeff Atwood's a bad guy,

02:11:05   I've met him a couple times,

02:11:06   I've talked to him a couple times,

02:11:07   I don't think he's a bad guy,

02:11:08   but this is just so incredibly tone deaf,

02:11:12   And it really just, it just,

02:11:14   and it's so easily avoidable.

02:11:16   This project is brand new.

02:11:18   Jeff Atwood has a hell of a microphone.

02:11:21   You can call it anything you want

02:11:23   and it will get off the ground just as well

02:11:25   as if you called it anything marked out.

02:11:27   You can call it anything.

02:11:29   - Yeah, it'll survive on its own merits.

02:11:31   And the merits are substantial

02:11:32   because they're fulfilling a market need

02:11:35   for these three big, very popular websites

02:11:36   that want a standard on this thing.

02:11:38   Go ahead, standardize it, pick a name out of a hat.

02:11:40   you know, like have a little contest for a name

02:11:42   like you did for the Stack Overflow logo.

02:11:43   Like, you know, you have the tools to do this.

02:11:46   - Yeah, like you can, you can really,

02:11:47   you can call it anything.

02:11:50   And this is the time to do that.

02:11:51   When the project has just gotten off the ground,

02:11:52   it's just starting, it's brand new,

02:11:55   you know, your version of it is brand new.

02:11:57   And that's the only thing that's a problem, is the name.

02:12:01   Just fix it, not a big deal.

02:12:04   - Yeah, there was a couple of people in the chat room

02:12:05   and elsewhere on the web were like,

02:12:06   "Well, the BSD license on markdown.pl,

02:12:09   Which is the Perl file that implements markdown to Groovermade says that you can't use the name markdown and blah blah blah

02:12:14   All that is irrelevant because that applies to the source code and nobody's using that source code

02:12:21   They're all trying to do their own independent implementations

02:12:23   Anyway, this has nothing to do with legality has everything to do with like not sabotaging yourself and not being a jerk

02:12:30   Like that's it like, you know

02:12:31   And I don't think we're gonna ever pursue it legally because that would be kind of pointless way

02:12:35   It's like it's just all about being nice to people and the reason they don't get replies is because they've been

02:12:40   You know obnoxious to him so many times. Would you keep replying to them? It's like what do you expect?

02:12:45   It's like well if you're not gonna reply

02:12:47   We're just gonna co-opt your thing and be jerks about it, and it's like well

02:12:50   If you're gonna be jerks about I'm not gonna respond to email well if you're not gonna respond to my email

02:12:53   I'm just gonna pick another name anyway. It's like there's needless

02:12:55   Needless drama that just yeah

02:12:58   I mean I I knew as soon as it said standard markdown that there was that there was a start your timer

02:13:03   That's not gonna last very long and sure enough

02:13:05   but I I have to admit that I was surprised when the rename post came and the new name was

02:13:10   With no permission and no blessing common markdown. It was like oh like I was so hopeful and like oh, this is speedy

02:13:17   They realized their mistake soon and they're correcting it. They're doing everything they're supposed to and they blew it

02:13:21   Yeah, well and again it's you can you can tell in the attitude of this post and that how they've gone about this

02:13:28   It's more of the same that they not only do they feel entitled to own Markdown themselves

02:13:34   But they really do not respect John Gruber at all

02:13:38   And and they don't respect him as a person even and that's that's what's become very clear here

02:13:43   They they really really look down upon him

02:13:46   Well, they don't respect him as an open source project maintainer, and I think he's a terrible open source project maintainer

02:13:51   But this doesn't give you the right to be a jerk about it

02:13:53   Like you can you can have it ever opinion you want about that you could be like, oh, I don't like how way you sound

02:13:57   fine, great, you don't like the way you handle it, but he doesn't like the way you handle a lot of your projects too.

02:14:01   And that doesn't, therefore I get to do this. No, not therefore you get to do that.

02:14:05   No, it doesn't follow. So it's like they're giving in to their frustrations on technical and sort of, you know,

02:14:12   issues of stewardship and stuff.

02:14:13   It's like, feel free to have those feelings, but like you cannot parlay those feelings into being a jerk and say, well,

02:14:19   it's justified because this guy's not good. He isn't running this project the way I would run it.

02:14:23   Yeah, well, get your own project, run it the way you want.

02:14:26   So I try, because I'm an idiot, to respond to most of the email I get.

02:14:33   And occasionally, I'll get just extremely kind, generous, wonderful emails.

02:14:41   You know how long it takes me to reply to most of those?

02:14:44   Somewhere between one and three weeks, because I get so much freaking email.

02:14:47   And I am nowhere near the level of celebrity that Jon Gruber is.

02:14:52   He did not respond because he's overwhelmed in email.

02:14:54   didn't respond because he didn't want to respond.

02:14:56   And like honestly, even if he totally planned to respond,

02:14:58   what's wrong with him taking a day or two to think about it?

02:15:01   Like, what's the big rush?

02:15:02   It's like--

02:15:03   - Here's the big thing about this.

02:15:05   Like somebody in the chat just said, here, let me see.

02:15:07   A tangible ghost in the chat just said,

02:15:09   "Yeah, I think all the disrespect comes from the fact

02:15:11   "that Gruber doesn't want to blank or get off the pot

02:15:13   "when it comes to Markdown."

02:15:15   Like, what people I think are not understanding well

02:15:21   in this argument is that John Gruber has no obligation

02:15:24   to do anything with Markdown.

02:15:25   He has no obligation at all to respond

02:15:29   to Jeff Atwood's emails.

02:15:31   He has no obligation at all to make changes

02:15:33   that people want or to fix perceived or actual bugs

02:15:35   or problems with Markdown.

02:15:37   It's his project.

02:15:38   He owns it.

02:15:40   Again, leaving aside the legalities of things

02:15:43   like trademarks, those are all arguable.

02:15:46   I think just common sense looking at this, he owns this.

02:15:49   And to think that you can just go up and take it as yours

02:15:54   and say, well, he doesn't seem to be using it,

02:15:57   so we're just gonna take the project over,

02:15:59   you know, there's a way to do that respectfully.

02:16:02   And the way to do that respectfully is to fork it

02:16:05   and use your own branding, period,

02:16:07   and not try to commandeer his,

02:16:10   because it does not matter what he is doing

02:16:14   or not doing with it, it is still his.

02:16:18   And there is nothing wrong with you doing your own take on it

02:16:23   with your name.

02:16:24   And see, in the normal open source world,

02:16:26   people get super pissed about forks and stuff.

02:16:28   And Gruber is like, fine, fork it.

02:16:29   Like, he is being much nicer than most maintainers

02:16:32   of open source projects who are like,

02:16:34   who view any kind of fork as a hostile attempt to take over,

02:16:37   especially if you give it a new name,

02:16:38   and it's like you want to be the new thing.

02:16:40   It's like, no way.

02:16:41   We're like-- they hate that.

02:16:42   Gruber's like, go ahead.

02:16:43   Like, do whatever you want.

02:16:45   Like, Markdown is not hard to munt yourself.

02:16:47   don't need his source code at all. It's a BSD license if you want to but then you

02:16:50   can't use it. But he's even willing to give you the source code as long as you

02:16:52   don't use the name Markdown. But like he's like go ahead call whatever the

02:16:55   hell you want make your own thing. Do like I don't care this is my thing feel

02:16:58   free to have your thing. He is in the grand scheme of maintainers open source

02:17:03   he is incredibly generous of what he's willing to let you do with his idea and

02:17:08   his source code. It's not even like GPL it's like a BSD variant. He's willing to

02:17:12   let people make things called insert modifier here Markdown which is way more

02:17:16   than most other open source people would let you do.

02:17:18   Yeah, try doing that with Twitter.

02:17:19   Right.

02:17:20   Try to make-- I don't know.

02:17:21   Maybe Postgres is good, but try to make a standard MySQL

02:17:25   and see how much the MySQL people like it.

02:17:27   [LAUGHTER]

02:17:28   You know, like, what-- and it all just

02:17:30   comes from frustration, like he's not running the project

02:17:33   the right way.

02:17:33   He's not running the project the way I would want.

02:17:35   I agree with all those things.

02:17:36   I do not think he's running the project the right way.

02:17:38   I don't think he's running the way I would want it.

02:17:40   But you can't then just-- it doesn't follow.

02:17:43   There's this huge gap between disagreeing

02:17:45   what someone's doing with their project and you deciding that you are now

02:17:49   you are now the the standard bearer for that project that you did not start.

02:17:53   All right. We got that pretty easily. I don't know.

02:17:56   I think it's pretty open and close.

02:17:58   I think common markdown will not last as a name and we will see more of this.

02:18:01   But the September 9th event will come and erase all this.

02:18:03   And so maybe we'll talk about it five shows from now when it is called something

02:18:06   that does not have marked on the name and we can finally get this all behind us.

02:18:09   Do you really think he's going to change the name again?

02:18:11   I don't think he will. He's got a chance.

02:18:12   He can't leave it as common. It's ridiculous.

02:18:14   If there's too much, too many people think he's a jerk

02:18:17   for doing it and they're right.

02:18:18   - But the attitude he has in this post,

02:18:21   it does not fill me with hope that he's going to admit

02:18:25   that this was not good and change it again.

02:18:27   - He admitted it once, he admitted that he screwed up

02:18:31   the first time and then screwed up a second time.

02:18:33   So he admitted he screwed up a second time

02:18:35   and get it right at the third time, right?

02:18:37   - I think it's interesting, not one of the names

02:18:40   that he suggested to Gruber didn't contain Markdown.

02:18:44   - But Gruber had said he's okay with like

02:18:46   pedantic markdown or maybe even strict markdown.

02:18:48   Like there is a precedent for modifier markdown

02:18:50   that Gruber is okay with.

02:18:51   All you gotta do is get permission.

02:18:52   If he says fine, use it.

02:18:53   But if he doesn't say fine to any of your names,

02:18:56   then just pick a new one.

02:18:58   It's really easy.

02:18:59   - Yeah, again, it's just, you know,

02:19:00   getting back to your discussion about good and bad business,

02:19:02   like, which admittedly was on a much more important topic,

02:19:05   but still, like, this is just bad business.

02:19:08   Like if you want your standard to actually have power,

02:19:12   to have a chance of becoming, quote, a standard.

02:19:15   Instead of just you saying it's a standard,

02:19:17   you know, insert XKCD comic here,

02:19:19   instead of just you saying that,

02:19:21   for it to actually be adopted, to be widely out there,

02:19:25   to be powerful, to be the standard,

02:19:28   it can't have stupid crap like this tying it down,

02:19:31   like stupid crap, like stupid arguments about the name.

02:19:34   - It's a sideshow, it's a distraction.

02:19:36   And people say, well, this sideshow is good for publicity.

02:19:38   Jeff Atwood does not need this sideshow to make publicity.

02:19:41   Like some people may need this kind of,

02:19:43   because otherwise no one would know it existed.

02:19:45   Jeff Atwood does not need this.

02:19:46   It is all downside for him.

02:19:48   - Exactly, and it's angering a lot of people

02:19:51   in the community of people he needs to attract.

02:19:54   - People who like Markdown, those people.

02:19:56   - Yeah.

02:19:57   - There's a lot of those, like those are the people

02:19:58   you don't want to piss off.

02:19:59   People like me, who cares?

02:20:00   I don't use Markdown and I don't care,

02:20:02   and even I'm against them.

02:20:03   And so it's like the people who love Markdown

02:20:05   really hate you for doing this.

02:20:06   - Yeah, because like, and Markdown has spread.

02:20:09   It has become so widespread because of people like

02:20:13   Jeff Atwood and like Markdown is on Tumblr

02:20:17   because I put it there.

02:20:18   'Cause David didn't really know what it was or care

02:20:21   and I wanted it there.

02:20:22   So one day when Tumblr was still really small,

02:20:24   I just put it there.

02:20:26   Markdown is on Stack Overflow because Jeff Atwood

02:20:29   was the co-founder of Stack Overflow

02:20:31   and one day he wanted it there so he put it there.

02:20:34   It's this kind of community of people.

02:20:37   It's people who read John Gruber's site,

02:20:40   who follow stuff like this, who are a part of this community,

02:20:42   who are, you know, programmers who are into this sort

02:20:45   of stuff, who follow this stuff online.

02:20:47   It's people like us who are responsible for the spread

02:20:50   of this kind of technology and the spread

02:20:52   of these kind of standards or non-standards.

02:20:55   It's this community that he is polarizing

02:20:58   by being a dick about the name,

02:21:00   and that will really harm this.

02:21:03   He has to not let people object to it

02:21:07   on such a trivial ground as he stole the name

02:21:11   in a kind of dickish way.

02:21:12   Like, let people object to it over its merits,

02:21:16   or let it win on its merits.

02:21:17   Don't give people stupid ammo like this

02:21:20   that is so easily avoided, it's so easily changed,

02:21:23   'cause that ultimately is harming

02:21:26   the goal he's trying to achieve,

02:21:27   in what I think is a bigger way than he realizes.

02:21:31   - Yep, but it's only been, what, 12 hours and 24 hours now?

02:21:35   So anyway, we'll revisit after the September 9th event,

02:21:38   see if anything came of it.

02:21:40   In the meantime, just keep doing what you were doing.

02:21:43   If you're using tiny American flags

02:21:46   for some markdown for others.

02:21:47   - So apparently there's, personally,

02:21:50   I don't understand that reference.

02:21:52   Second-- (laughing)

02:21:53   - I screwed up the quote, so you're forgiven.

02:21:55   - It's also the second time

02:21:56   you've used that reference on our show.

02:21:57   - I've used it way more than two times in my life,

02:22:00   believe me.

02:22:01   - Let's do titles.

02:22:03   Accidental Markdown, no.

02:22:05   Do you do anything for fun? I feel like that's worth it just to shame John, but it's probably not the best

02:22:11   Shame me for what? It's a shame you two for not being able to think of things I do for fun

02:22:15   Despite the fact that we talk about them constantly. Because you do nothing for fun

02:22:18   Nothing other than those things that we constantly talk about. You do nothing outside the house for fun

02:22:23   Ooh, stumped it, you got him there

02:22:27   Waiting for you guys to come up with the things I do for fun outside the house. I bet you can

02:22:31   I guess you can play games outside of your house on portable devices. Oh, no, that's true. But are the movies

02:22:37   Yeah, where are the movies there at the movie theaters on times? Where's the movie theater outside the house?

02:22:42   About restaurants do I ever go to restaurants are they in the house? Do you enjoy restaurants?

02:22:46   I know he does not enjoy them in New York more than I enjoy them here, but I do enjoy them. That's bullshit

02:22:51   Don't enjoy restaurants I do I

02:22:56   How's the prime rib who doesn't enjoy that that's good stuff

02:22:58   That was pretty good that happens once a year. I know in the middle of a trip that makes you miserable

02:23:04   Although the night after the house of primary always feel like someone should wheel me back to the hotel, but that's part of experience

02:23:13   How tall are you John?

02:23:16   Six two ish three ish something like so all 150 pounds and six foot two inches of you

02:23:22   Yeah, you really hey I clean my plate. There's nothing left when I'm not doing a whole Brent Simmons thing

02:23:28   That's he gets the dessert slice. That's hardcore. I'll forget it. I can't do that

02:23:33   Two years in a row I have eaten the entire thing

02:23:36   So good

02:23:38   It is so good. Everyone likes the markdown titles

02:23:41   the real official markdown would be a good title for

02:23:44   The markdown part of the thing, but that's you know

02:23:47   Two and a half hours in yeah, all right

02:23:50   Someone's gonna see the title and be like what are they gonna get to the fireworks factory another reference?

02:23:53   I've made a million times and I will keep making you cannot stop me

02:23:56   Did you don't have to make me give a shit either oh you should

02:24:01   Well, you can have your own references you can reference things that I haven't seen like saved by the Bell or something

02:24:07   You know, I don't know what you kids are into

02:24:08   I made a hunt for an October reference on Twitter earlier and I've seen a handful people got it and I was very happy with

02:24:14   Myself say we have common ground for references

02:24:17   I'm just saying you can feel free to make references that I don't get if you think there are any

02:24:20   That's not like a challenge. I said there should be plenty like it was fish saved by the Bell Dave Matthews band

02:24:26   I don't know anything about that crap. What's that thing something tycoon train tycoon rail tight railroad tycoon?

02:24:32   Transport tycoons for it's not just railroads. It's all trans about railroad tycoon was was worse. Please email Casey. I

02:24:39   Cannot believe you're not going to this event John

02:24:41   I seriously thought about it. I had a plan

02:24:46   But in the end I could not justify the time and expense

02:24:49   and yes the the discomfort of the travel

02:24:53   That is a factor cannot discount it the spreadsheet said no. I cannot go no. It's not a spreadsheet

02:25:00   It's just called weighing reasons for and against everybody does in their head whether they know it or not

02:25:05   Unfortunately a lot of people when they make decisions have invisible columns weighing down their invisible spreadsheet

02:25:12   They don't know there's a spreadsheet and they don't know what's in any of the columns

02:25:14   and they just make decisions and don't understand what they're made by.

02:25:16   Just because I understand what factors into my decision does not mean I'm making decisions

02:25:20   in a different way than other people.

02:25:22   All of your columns are labeled.

02:25:24   They're least visible.

02:25:25   Most of them, I think.

02:25:27   Most of them are visible.

02:25:28   [ Silence ]