ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Yes, don't ask the question if you're not looking at the file.

00:00:04 ◼   ► [BEEPING]

00:00:05 ◼   ► All right, so let's start with some follow up.

00:00:10 ◼   ► To begin, we have some follow up about the TiVo OTA,

00:00:14 ◼   ► or OTA, if you're Marco.

00:00:16 ◼   ► It's OTA.

00:00:18 ◼   ► My apologies.

00:00:18 ◼   ► The OTA.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Yeah, this feedback was from Joseph.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Last week, we talked about who the OTA might be good for.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I said, get it.

00:00:26 ◼   ► Try it out if you don't like it.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Don't stop paying your $15 a month

00:00:30 ◼   ► Joseph points out that Tivo's require a one-year commitment of service and as a 30-day money-back guarantee in which you can cancel in return

00:00:38 ◼   ► It but you can't keep it for a couple months to see if you like it

00:00:41 ◼   ► I didn't I didn't actually check whether this is true, but I trust Joseph. He seems like a trustworthy guy with a

00:00:47 ◼   ► Loan first name with no last name. So there you go. He also says that

00:00:53 ◼   ► Over the air is not a wasteland of just four networks as in San Francisco insert Dan Benjamin, San Francisco rant here

00:00:59 ◼   ► There is over 90 distinct channels of content available over the air

00:01:03 ◼   ► I said so some of its like religious or shopping but there's tons of that stuff on cable, too

00:01:07 ◼   ► So apparently some places actually have lots of channels coming over the air

00:01:11 ◼   ► Yeah, but like what kind of channels like is there anything you'd actually want to watch see that's the thing. So

00:01:15 ◼   ► Aaron and I have season tickets to the University of Virginia football team and

00:01:21 ◼   ► we've gotten pretty serious about the tailgates with a mutual friend of ours Brian and

00:01:26 ◼   ► he brings a generator and we bring a TV and we bring an over-the-air HD antenna and

00:01:32 ◼   ► In Charlottesville, Virginia, which we've all established that you two think is basically the middle of nowhere

00:01:38 ◼   ► Actually, it's past the middle of nowhere into straight-up nothingness and here in Richmond as well because I've tried the antenna here

00:01:45 ◼   ► We get I think Fox CBS

00:01:48 ◼   ► NBC ABC I

00:01:50 ◼   ► Do know we get the CW which was I was a little surprised to see but that's basically it and then all the all the

00:01:58 ◼   ► Standard channels like Fox and ABC and whatnot they have like two or three sub channels like weather

00:02:04 ◼   ► Which just shows the weather non-stop. It's like a dashboard if you will and

00:02:09 ◼   ► And that's pretty much all we get so I'm sure there are places that get

00:02:17 ◼   ► Plenty of channels, but I tell you what this is where I live is not one of those places

00:02:22 ◼   ► All right, do we have any other follow-up? Yes, don't ask the question if you're not looking at the file

00:02:28 ◼   ► So next is from Nate boating I'm doing well he sent us a

00:02:36 ◼   ► Link to a tumblr dedicated to frayed lightning cables. It is appropriately named frayed lightning cables dot tumblr.com

00:02:44 ◼   ► In fact, it has more than just frayed lightning cables on it,

00:02:47 ◼   ► but a lot of these things,

00:02:48 ◼   ► I think they were chewed by animals.

00:02:50 ◼   ► I have no, there's no promise

00:02:52 ◼   ► about what made these things fray.

00:02:53 ◼   ► I think it's just a tumbler of frayed lightning cables.

00:02:55 ◼   ► But if you wanted to see a bunch of frayed lightning cables,

00:02:57 ◼   ► you know, rule 34 and all, go for it.

00:03:01 ◼   ► - All right.

00:03:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, next bit of follow-up is about Amazon buying Twitch

00:03:08 ◼   ► and how Google was, looked like they were interested,

00:03:11 ◼   ► but then bailed out and people didn't quite know why.

00:03:13 ◼   ► Here is a rumor sent to us by Hunter on Twitter

00:03:15 ◼   ► saying the rumor is that the breakup fee was too high

00:03:19 ◼   ► relative to the risk of regulators killing it.

00:03:21 ◼   ► So if Google was going to buy them,

00:03:24 ◼   ► normally as part of the deal they say,

00:03:25 ◼   ► okay, well, we agreed to buy you,

00:03:27 ◼   ► and it turns out that the US government

00:03:29 ◼   ► doesn't let us buy you for antitrust reasons or whatever.

00:03:31 ◼   ► There's some fee that will still pay you

00:03:35 ◼   ► as part of this deal,

00:03:36 ◼   ► and apparently Twitch wanted a breakup fee that was too high.

00:03:39 ◼   ► And according to this rumor,

00:03:40 ◼   ► this is not confirmed or anything.

00:03:41 ◼   ► But anyway, that explains why Twitch might have accepted

00:03:44 ◼   ► an offer from Amazon that is reportedly lower

00:03:47 ◼   ► than what Google was willing to offer for them,

00:03:50 ◼   ► because there's more to the deal than just,

00:03:52 ◼   ► the number is also what you're paying in cash versus stock,

00:03:55 ◼   ► and also things like breakup fees.

00:03:56 ◼   ► So this is a plausible rumor about why Twitch

00:04:00 ◼   ► might have gone with Amazon instead of Google.

00:04:03 ◼   ► - All right.

00:04:03 ◼   ► - Look at that, we breezed your follow-up.

00:04:05 ◼   ► - I know. - It's gonna be a short show,

00:04:06 ◼   ► forget it.

00:04:07 ◼   ► - I'm impressed.

00:04:08 ◼   ► All right, let's start with something cool,

00:04:09 ◼   ► and then we'll get into the real meat of the episode.

00:04:12 ◼   ► - We are sponsored this week,

00:04:13 ◼   ► once again by our friends at Harry's.

00:04:16 ◼   ► I don't think I ever actually spelled it last time,

00:04:18 ◼   ► and so God knows how anybody actually thought

00:04:21 ◼   ► what I was saying, but anyway, it's H-A-R-R-Y-S.com,

00:04:25 ◼   ► that kind of Harry's.

00:04:26 ◼   ► You know, like with the apostrophe,

00:04:27 ◼   ► but you can't put an apostrophe in URLs, I don't think.

00:04:30 ◼   ► At least in host names.

00:04:31 ◼   ► Anyway, go to harrys.com and use promo code ATP

00:04:35 ◼   ► to save $5 off your first purchase.

00:04:37 ◼   ► So what is Harry's?

00:04:38 ◼   ► Harry's is less than one year old,

00:04:40 ◼   ► and they are already substantially disrupting

00:04:43 ◼   ► the shaving industry.

00:04:45 ◼   ► Harry's offers a better shaving experience

00:04:47 ◼   ► at better value than the giants in the space,

00:04:50 ◼   ► like Schick and Gillette.

00:04:52 ◼   ► So Harry's, this is very much like some of our other

00:04:55 ◼   ► sponsors, like what Warby Parker does for eyeglasses.

00:04:59 ◼   ► This is kind of what Harry's does for shaving.

00:05:01 ◼   ► And this is not a coincidence because one of the founders

00:05:05 ◼   ► of Harry's, Jeff, also was the co-founder of Warby Parker.

00:05:10 ◼   ► So there are many similarities here.

00:05:11 ◼   ► Both of them are disrupting huge stagnant industries

00:05:14 ◼   ► by offering great design, meticulous craftsmanship,

00:05:17 ◼   ► and great highly personal customer service.

00:05:19 ◼   ► And most of all, they're offering this at an amazing value.

00:05:22 ◼   ► The other founder, Andy, he was motivated to address shaving

00:05:26 ◼   ► because he went to a drug store one day

00:05:28 ◼   ► to restock on shaving stuff,

00:05:30 ◼   ► and he had to ask for help and wait around

00:05:32 ◼   ► for more than 10 minutes for someone to come unlock

00:05:34 ◼   ► the shoplifter resistant razor case.

00:05:37 ◼   ► And he was eventually permitted to buy a four pack of blades

00:05:40 ◼   ► and some shaving cream.

00:05:41 ◼   ► And for all this great privilege of, you know,

00:05:43 ◼   ► being treated like a criminal

00:05:44 ◼   ► and having a bunch of time wasted,

00:05:45 ◼   ► he had to pay over $25 for just four blades

00:05:48 ◼   ► and some shaving cream.

00:05:50 ◼   ► He knew there had to be a better way to do this.

00:05:52 ◼   ► Harry's makes amazing German engineered blades.

00:05:55 ◼   ► They care so much about the quality of these blades.

00:05:58 ◼   ► They actually bought a 93 year old German factory

00:06:01 ◼   ► that makes the blades.

00:06:02 ◼   ► They went to them like, you make great blades,

00:06:04 ◼   ► we're gonna just buy you out and we're gonna make a new company with this. So

00:06:08 ◼   ► Harry's is focused on providing men and women a great shaving experience for a

00:06:13 ◼   ► fraction of the price of their competitors. They charge less than

00:06:16 ◼   ► $2 per blade cartridge and if you go look around at what you've been paying

00:06:21 ◼   ► for razor cartridges from the big brands under $2 each is probably about half of

00:06:26 ◼   ► what you've been paying if you've been getting a good deal. So this is you know

00:06:30 ◼   ► fantastic price and I tried these blades they sent me they sent me the big

00:06:34 ◼   ► starter kit and everything that I tried these blades and they're really good I

00:06:37 ◼   ► was I was surprised you know I I was worried that I might I might like try it

00:06:42 ◼   ► and maybe I wouldn't like it and then I just wouldn't say anything it'd be kind

00:06:45 ◼   ► of awkward but I know I tried these and I like them a lot actually they I was

00:06:49 ◼   ► very impressed by the blades and by the handle the handles like nice and weighty

00:06:53 ◼   ► everything about it is very high quality the packaging is really nice I was I was

00:06:57 ◼   ► just very impressed by all of it. Harry's you get the convenience and ease of

00:07:01 ◼   ► ordering online, you get high quality blades, you get a great handle and

00:07:04 ◼   ► shaving cream, an excellent customer service, all this at half the price of

00:07:08 ◼   ► competitors. So you can get started today. You can try it yourself, you

00:07:11 ◼   ► can see what I'm talking about. Get started today with a set. It includes a

00:07:14 ◼   ► handle, three blades, and shaving cream for just $15 shipped to your door. That's

00:07:20 ◼   ► 15 bucks including shipping for a handle, three blades, and cream. You can't beat

00:07:24 ◼   ► that. Harry's even offers a custom engraving option on the handle if you are that kind

00:07:29 ◼   ► of person. So anyway, go to Harry's.com, use promo code ATP to save $5 off your first purchase.

00:07:35 ◼   ► Thank you very much to Harry's for sponsoring our show once again.

00:07:40 ◼   ► So Marco, when you were big into PCs, did you read Tom's hardware very often?

00:07:45 ◼   ► Of course. Yeah, I remember back when they made Intel recall the 1.1 gigahertz Pentium.

00:07:52 ◼   ► And Jon, I assume you were at least tangentially aware, if not a reader yourself.

00:07:56 ◼   ► No, well I knew about it, but I didn't read it.

00:07:59 ◼   ► Okay.

00:08:00 ◼   ► So, Tom's Hardware for Marco and myself was a really important resource and website, I

00:08:06 ◼   ► don't know, 10 years ago-ish, maybe even 15 now, to talk about the real nitty-gritty about

00:08:13 ◼   ► hardware for the PC world.

00:08:16 ◼   ► And to me, is it AnandTech or AnandTech?

00:08:20 ◼   ► I'm probably pronouncing it wrong both ways.

00:08:22 ◼   ► Do we know which one it is?

00:08:24 ◼   ► - John, you are in charge of pronunciation on the show.

00:08:26 ◼   ► - I got nothing on this one.

00:08:27 ◼   ► I have met the man in person,

00:08:29 ◼   ► still don't know how to pronounce it.

00:08:31 ◼   ► - So AnandTech seemed to me anyway,

00:08:34 ◼   ► to be very much the Tom's hardware

00:08:37 ◼   ► of the Apple world in 2014.

00:08:39 ◼   ► And if that doesn't sound like a compliment, it should,

00:08:42 ◼   ► because that is a huge compliment.

00:08:44 ◼   ► And apparently, now I'm gonna say Anand,

00:08:47 ◼   ► so I'm totally inconsistent, but Anand has left.

00:08:50 ◼   ► And as it turns out, he's going somewhere very interesting.

00:08:53 ◼   ► He's off to Apple.

00:08:55 ◼   ► So Marco, what do you think about all this?

00:08:58 ◼   ► - I think, I mean, I'm honestly, I'm disappointed

00:09:01 ◼   ► that we're not gonna get to read any more

00:09:03 ◼   ► of his awesome reviews because what he, you know,

00:09:05 ◼   ► like I compared him to John.

00:09:06 ◼   ► Like what John does for software,

00:09:09 ◼   ► and Ann would do for hardware.

00:09:10 ◼   ► And his insights on things like CPU design

00:09:14 ◼   ► and like where PC hardware was going

00:09:18 ◼   ► and what was becoming important and what wasn't.

00:09:20 ◼   ► And he was really just incredibly good

00:09:24 ◼   ► at both writing about this stuff,

00:09:26 ◼   ► at seeing what's here, seeing what's coming,

00:09:29 ◼   ► and explaining very, very complex things about,

00:09:32 ◼   ► you know, things like chip design,

00:09:34 ◼   ► you know, explaining that in a way that makes it relevant

00:09:37 ◼   ► to the readers of these reviews.

00:09:38 ◼   ► And so we don't know what he's doing at Apple.

00:09:41 ◼   ► We also know, like, they hired, is it Brian Klug?

00:09:44 ◼   ► Is that right?

00:09:45 ◼   ► - I believe that's right.

00:09:46 ◼   ► They hired Brian Klug, who was also a writer at OnanTech.

00:09:49 ◼   ► So Apple apparently hired him very quietly a few months back.

00:09:53 ◼   ► And so anyway, so now they got both of them.

00:09:57 ◼   ► It would be interesting to know what department

00:09:59 ◼   ► they're even working for.

00:10:01 ◼   ► I don't know what their qualifications are exactly.

00:10:03 ◼   ► I would venture a guess that--

00:10:05 ◼   ► I don't know much about Brian, but I

00:10:06 ◼   ► would venture a guess that Onan probably

00:10:08 ◼   ► has enough background to work on the chip design department.

00:10:11 ◼   ► But I really don't know.

00:10:13 ◼   ► Yeah, that's the question.

00:10:14 ◼   ► Like when he posted on the site that he was just retiring,

00:10:17 ◼   ► he didn't say where he was going.

00:10:19 ◼   ► He just said like, "I'm retiring from tech journalism,"

00:10:21 ◼   ► which is different than, "I'm leaving the website

00:10:23 ◼   ► that bears my name."

00:10:24 ◼   ► Like he didn't just say that,

00:10:25 ◼   ► so it's not like some power struggle

00:10:26 ◼   ► or something with the thing.

00:10:27 ◼   ► He wasn't just leaving the website to go for something

00:10:29 ◼   ► that said, "I'm retiring from tech journalism."

00:10:31 ◼   ► And my initial interpretation of that was,

00:10:34 ◼   ► he wanted to do something else, right?

00:10:36 ◼   ► Because he says retiring from tech journalism,

00:10:38 ◼   ► that means he's not going to show up writing reviews

00:10:40 ◼   ► of hardware on some other website.

00:10:41 ◼   ► He's not gonna start his own website with a different name.

00:10:43 ◼   ► you know, like that he was done with that

00:10:45 ◼   ► and he wanted to do something else, which is fine.

00:10:48 ◼   ► And then I tweeted the day like,

00:10:52 ◼   ► here are the list of companies

00:10:53 ◼   ► that should be trying to hire him.

00:10:54 ◼   ► And when I was doing that, I was trying to think like,

00:10:57 ◼   ► what value could he bring to a company

00:11:00 ◼   ► and to what company is he the most valuable?

00:11:03 ◼   ► And the top of my list was Intel

00:11:06 ◼   ► because aside from all his reviews and everything

00:11:08 ◼   ► and in all of his contact

00:11:10 ◼   ► with these various hardware vendors,

00:11:13 ◼   ► He definitely has some frustration with Intel,

00:11:15 ◼   ► like we all do, like trying to figure out

00:11:17 ◼   ► are they going to be, you know,

00:11:20 ◼   ► when they sold all their arm holdings to get rid of,

00:11:23 ◼   ► you know, they stopped trying to make arm chips

00:11:25 ◼   ► to do their own thing, the whole x86 on mobile

00:11:30 ◼   ► and how that's going and the various software initiatives

00:11:33 ◼   ► they occasionally have, are they just gonna be a fab,

00:11:35 ◼   ► are they gonna continue to sell chips?

00:11:38 ◼   ► He had interesting things to say about what he thought

00:11:40 ◼   ► Intel should be doing with their business

00:11:43 ◼   ► and how competitive their products actually are

00:11:45 ◼   ► and could potentially be in the future.

00:11:47 ◼   ► And I'm sure he told Intel all these things

00:11:50 ◼   ► and he told the same things to Nvidia,

00:11:51 ◼   ► which was another company I listed,

00:11:53 ◼   ► and a bunch of other people.

00:11:54 ◼   ► You know, it's kind of like an outsider's perspective

00:11:56 ◼   ► of like, look, inside the Intel bubble,

00:11:58 ◼   ► you maybe think you're doing the right thing,

00:12:00 ◼   ► but from my perspective, you are, you know,

00:12:02 ◼   ► you should be doing X, Y, and Z and you're not,

00:12:04 ◼   ► or you should do this sooner or that later,

00:12:06 ◼   ► or you should acquire this company

00:12:07 ◼   ► or start doing that or stop doing that.

00:12:09 ◼   ► So it seems like he had a lot of insight into their business and that would be valuable to them.

00:12:13 ◼   ► And same thing with the other companies, because that's what he'd be in contact with these hardware vendors

00:12:17 ◼   ► and he would meet with them and they would explain what their upcoming line of things are

00:12:21 ◼   ► and then he would write about it and presumably he would tell them to their faces like, you know,

00:12:26 ◼   ► "I think you should do this and this other company's doing that" and you know, like just giving his opinion,

00:12:30 ◼   ► like what he wrote on his website about all these issues.

00:12:33 ◼   ► Big picture things, not just like "let me tell you how many adders should be in your next CPU"

00:12:37 ◼   ► but just like, you know, a grand scheme of things strategy.

00:12:41 ◼   ► So then when he said, when it came out

00:12:44 ◼   ► that he was going to Apple, I didn't put Apple on a list

00:12:46 ◼   ► because I thought that of all the things he could offer,

00:12:51 ◼   ► Apple probably had existing people doing those same things

00:12:55 ◼   ► and didn't seem as like sort of rudderless, you know,

00:12:58 ◼   ► or as sort of flailing as some of these other companies,

00:13:01 ◼   ► like Apple seems to have it stuffed together, right?

00:13:04 ◼   ► But Apple did hire him, which again shows

00:13:05 ◼   ► they probably have their stuff together

00:13:06 ◼   ► more than the other companies, because the other companies probably don't even know they need someone like him,

00:13:09 ◼   ► but Apple does know that having someone like him is valuable.

00:13:11 ◼   ► And I was trying to think what he could do for Apple. A lot of people guessed that he would have something to do with

00:13:17 ◼   ► press relations, and he certainly does have a heck of a lot of experience at the interface between technology companies and press,

00:13:23 ◼   ► but he's always been on the other side of it. So I don't quite see what he would do for Apple on the...

00:13:28 ◼   ► I don't know. I mean, maybe... I think he has expertise in that area that could be used,

00:13:33 ◼   ► but I

00:13:35 ◼   ► Don't know if that would interest him. I don't know enough about his interest chip stuff

00:13:38 ◼   ► I don't know if he's ever designed a chip. He's got opinions on chip

00:13:41 ◼   ► He knows a lot about architecture in the broad level but down to the nitty-gritty

00:13:44 ◼   ► I don't know if he has that depth of knowledge about

00:13:47 ◼   ► You know laying out

00:13:50 ◼   ► Laying out circuits or deciding like I you know and and maybe you don't have to maybe it can be a more

00:13:55 ◼   ► You know an advisory supervisor role there

00:13:58 ◼   ► I really don't know enough about a skill set to even guess of what what department he could be in

00:14:03 ◼   ► It's kind of in the same situation that I always imagined myself to be in which is why Apple will never hire me

00:14:09 ◼   ► It's like the only job. I'm calling like to do at Apple is to tell everyone what to do

00:14:13 ◼   ► Those jobs are already filled by people who have earned the right to do that and not just by saying well, I have an opinion

00:14:19 ◼   ► Yeah, well, that's why you don't get that job, right?

00:14:21 ◼   ► But he has more than just an opinion. Like I think he has actual insights and has much more, you know

00:14:27 ◼   ► He has close contact with so many vendors in the hardware industry and such in-depth knowledge of all of their products that that

00:14:33 ◼   ► That is valuable to them. And so it seems like he would have to be in a position of

00:14:37 ◼   ► Some considerable authority like you're not gonna just make him be as simple as another cog in a machine

00:14:43 ◼   ► Like he left the website that he found it when he was 14 that has his name on it

00:14:47 ◼   ► so I think he's in a position where he's going to be able to make big moves and

00:14:54 ◼   ► be an important part of Apple's organization and I find that exciting.

00:14:58 ◼   ► Yeah, I hope so. So in the chat room, Pavan

00:15:02 ◼   ► linked to this thing we'll put in the show notes, this Apple Jobs

00:15:06 ◼   ► entry on their job site where the

00:15:10 ◼   ► job title is "Performance Marketing Analyst" and it says

00:15:14 ◼   ► "in this role you will develop test methodologies, test Apple devices and competitive

00:15:18 ◼   ► products, analyze test results and help prepare performance data to support

00:15:22 ◼   ► product managers in creating compelling performance stories

00:15:25 ◼   ► for product launch materials.

00:15:27 ◼   ► Okay, so anyway, what that all basically means is

00:15:31 ◼   ► he would be doing like reviews and comparisons

00:15:34 ◼   ► for internal use to put in marketing materials.

00:15:37 ◼   ► I cannot see him leaving his own site to do this.

00:15:41 ◼   ► Like this doesn't seem like it's a big enough cog

00:15:43 ◼   ► in an important enough part of the machine.

00:15:45 ◼   ► Like this--

00:15:46 ◼   ► - He's a little overqualified for that,

00:15:47 ◼   ► don't you feel like?

00:15:48 ◼   ► But on the other hand, Apple is the kind of company

00:15:51 ◼   ► get smart enough to get someone who's overqualified

00:15:53 ◼   ► to fill it because like, that position doesn't necessarily

00:15:56 ◼   ► have to be as kind of grunt worky as it seems

00:15:58 ◼   ► because you, it could influence the design

00:16:01 ◼   ► of future products.

00:16:02 ◼   ► Like it's, you know, from the outside,

00:16:04 ◼   ► and I can say like, oh well, here's what they did

00:16:07 ◼   ► with this CPU and this GPU combination

00:16:09 ◼   ► and really they would have ended up with a better platform

00:16:11 ◼   ► if they'd done X, Y, and Z,

00:16:12 ◼   ► but he can't actually make that happen.

00:16:13 ◼   ► Whereas if he's doing comparison tests

00:16:15 ◼   ► of like prototype hardware inside the company

00:16:17 ◼   ► and can say, okay, well, for this one,

00:16:19 ◼   ► you should tweak this, that, and the other thing,

00:16:20 ◼   ► for the next chip, I think these guys are gonna do X, Y, and Z that like he can actually

00:16:23 ◼   ► influence the roadmap as opposed to just commenting on it from the outside. So that is potentially

00:16:29 ◼   ► not this exact position, but like the head of all the people doing that is potentially

00:16:33 ◼   ► a powerful position within the organization because you can influence the hardware roadmap

00:16:37 ◼   ► of Apple's products. And that I mean, you know, that that's gonna be beneficial to Apple.

00:16:42 ◼   ► And I think it might be interesting to him. Yeah, I definitely think, you know, like if

00:16:46 ◼   ► if there is a chance that he's actually gonna be involved

00:16:48 ◼   ► in component selection, maybe, what you were saying,

00:16:52 ◼   ► trying to influence, not necessarily designing the chips,

00:16:55 ◼   ► but helping Apple figure out what kind of GPU

00:16:59 ◼   ► should they be looking for from PowerVR or whatever

00:17:02 ◼   ► for the next iDevice or whatever.

00:17:05 ◼   ► He could definitely be on that team.

00:17:07 ◼   ► I would imagine he's very much qualified

00:17:08 ◼   ► to do that sort of thing, but who knows?

00:17:11 ◼   ► This is very much a mystery, and I have a feeling

00:17:14 ◼   ► it might be a while before we even figure out, you know, what exactly he's doing.

00:17:19 ◼   ► Yeah, and the thing that's interesting to me about it is, he was kind of the big cheese

00:17:24 ◼   ► in this Apple bubble, or when it comes to hardware-related things. I mean, I think he

00:17:30 ◼   ► was certainly an extremely important person in the community, and if—I mean, maybe I'm

00:17:36 ◼   ► just an egotistic jerk, but if I were to—if I were Anand and I was thinking whether or

00:17:42 ◼   ► or not I should go to Apple, it would take a lot for me to say, "You know what? I'm

00:17:47 ◼   ► going to hang up my boots," or whatever the phrase is I'm thinking of, "and I'm

00:17:52 ◼   ► going to go work in a place that usually doesn't really smile upon being forthcoming and being

00:18:01 ◼   ► very public with what you do." And his whole existence up until this point was being forthcoming

00:18:07 ◼   ► and being public about what he did. And so whatever it is, it's got to have scratched

00:18:11 ◼   ► an itch that an Antec and Ontec couldn't scratch before.

00:18:16 ◼   ► So like you guys said, I'm extremely interested in seeing where he ends up.

00:18:22 ◼   ► And especially if he does end up in engineering, what is that going to mean?

00:18:27 ◼   ► I'm not sure what his background is.

00:18:28 ◼   ► It certainly sounds, the way he writes, it sounds like he's either got a formal or

00:18:32 ◼   ► an extensive informal education in engineering.

00:18:35 ◼   ► Like I said, I don't know his particular background.

00:18:37 ◼   ► But whatever it is, it's certainly an interesting move.

00:18:42 ◼   ► - Chat room says that Brian Klug is an optical engineer,

00:18:46 ◼   ► which you might've picked up by listening to the podcast

00:18:48 ◼   ► where he talks about cameras.

00:18:49 ◼   ► So I also don't know where he's working,

00:18:52 ◼   ► but if he is actually a trained optical engineer,

00:18:55 ◼   ► it makes sense that he might have something to do

00:18:57 ◼   ► with cameras in Apple's devices.

00:18:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, these are all very important areas.

00:19:02 ◼   ► So I think it's, you know,

00:19:03 ◼   ► if these guys wanted to keep doing press

00:19:06 ◼   ► or review type stuff, they would have kept doing that

00:19:09 ◼   ► on an Antec.

00:19:10 ◼   ► They had a great setup there.

00:19:11 ◼   ► They don't need to go to Apple to do that.

00:19:14 ◼   ► I think Casey, you're right.

00:19:15 ◼   ► They would need to go to Apple to do something else,

00:19:17 ◼   ► to do something more engineering focused maybe.

00:19:20 ◼   ► There's no way they're going to Apple to go make graphs

00:19:23 ◼   ► for the marketing department, not a chance.

00:19:25 ◼   ► - Yep, and since it's Apple,

00:19:27 ◼   ► it's not like we're ever going to know.

00:19:28 ◼   ► It's not like this is like, oh, well, we don't know now,

00:19:30 ◼   ► but I'm sure Apple will tell us exactly what.

00:19:32 ◼   ► No, they're never gonna tell us.

00:19:35 ◼   ► If we see him next year at WAC,

00:19:36 ◼   ► we can talk to him about it and maybe, you know,

00:19:38 ◼   ► but like how many people do we know at Apple?

00:19:41 ◼   ► And we know like what department they work in

00:19:42 ◼   ► and like, that's it.

00:19:44 ◼   ► You know, what specifically do you work in?

00:19:46 ◼   ► Oh, I can't tell you.

00:19:47 ◼   ► You know, it's like, well, you just accept it.

00:19:49 ◼   ► Like you're lucky if you can get, you know,

00:19:50 ◼   ► hardware or software, which hardware group,

00:19:52 ◼   ► which software group,

00:19:53 ◼   ► but that's as close as you can get usually.

00:19:55 ◼   ► - And we don't even know what Phil Schiller does.

00:19:58 ◼   ► We just know he does like everything

00:20:00 ◼   ► and his title is like marketing.

00:20:01 ◼   ► - He goes to Red Sox games, right?

00:20:04 ◼   ► And he mountain bikes, mountain bikes sometimes.

00:20:07 ◼   ► - He buys R8s for his team.

00:20:08 ◼   ► - All we know is that he does pretty much everything

00:20:12 ◼   ► and his title doesn't mean anything.

00:20:15 ◼   ► - And so real time follow up,

00:20:16 ◼   ► the chat room is telling us that Anand

00:20:19 ◼   ► has a computer engineering degree,

00:20:21 ◼   ► which sounds similar to myself in Syracuse,

00:20:24 ◼   ► from North Carolina State University,

00:20:25 ◼   ► which I actually very nearly went to.

00:20:28 ◼   ► It was between that and Virginia Tech,

00:20:29 ◼   ► and I chose Virginia Tech.

00:20:31 ◼   ► So he certainly has an engineering background.

00:20:33 ◼   ► Now, you could argue whether or not he's practiced that

00:20:35 ◼   ► in the traditional sense of the word in the last,

00:20:38 ◼   ► I don't know, 10 years or whatever,

00:20:39 ◼   ► but he certainly has the education to support him

00:20:42 ◼   ► being in the engineering department.

00:20:44 ◼   ► It's a question as to whether or not he actually is

00:20:47 ◼   ► in the engineering department.

00:20:48 ◼   ► - Right, like they wouldn't be hiring him

00:20:49 ◼   ► for the stuff he learned in college,

00:20:50 ◼   ► and they're hiring him for all this stuff he did on his web.

00:20:52 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:20:53 ◼   ► Because, yeah, and it can't be underestimated.

00:20:56 ◼   ► Like, who in the entire industry has had more contact

00:21:01 ◼   ► with the vendors that Apple feels competitive

00:21:04 ◼   ► with hardware-wise.

00:21:05 ◼   ► Like it's basically what kind of press goes to like

00:21:08 ◼   ► the Intel's IDF thing and goes to Samsung in Korea

00:21:12 ◼   ► and goes to all the manufacturers in the Far East

00:21:15 ◼   ► and like just is these incredibly detailed

00:21:18 ◼   ► technical briefings on hardware

00:21:20 ◼   ► and gets a sample hardware and tests it in benchmark.

00:21:22 ◼   ► Like who else has done that?

00:21:23 ◼   ► Like there's, maybe there's a couple other websites

00:21:26 ◼   ► that are maybe competitive, like real world tech

00:21:28 ◼   ► or Extreme Tech and Tom Hardware is still around or whatever,

00:21:31 ◼   ► but what kind of person is going on that circuit

00:21:34 ◼   ► and being in contact with these companies

00:21:36 ◼   ► over the course of years and years?

00:21:37 ◼   ► That is the experience that you can't buy

00:21:39 ◼   ► from someone who comes out of college,

00:21:41 ◼   ► which is an education, that's what they're hiring him for.

00:21:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I should also note more real-time follow-up

00:21:47 ◼   ► from a dear friend of the show, Ben Thompson.

00:21:49 ◼   ► Anand was more than just Apple, and he was,

00:21:53 ◼   ► and I didn't realize this, but apparently he and his site

00:21:57 ◼   ► were more of a general hardware review site.

00:22:00 ◼   ► - You never read that site?

00:22:01 ◼   ► You read Tom's Hardware, but not in OnTech?

00:22:03 ◼   ► - I did occasionally. - You were reading

00:22:04 ◼   ► the wrong sites.

00:22:05 ◼   ► He just got into Apple stuff like, you know,

00:22:07 ◼   ► sort of a late comer, like you and Marco,

00:22:09 ◼   ► you and Marco more or less, where it's like,

00:22:11 ◼   ► he reviewed, you know, all the PC hardware type stuff.

00:22:14 ◼   ► I was like, well, maybe Apple has some interesting stuff.

00:22:15 ◼   ► And he got sucked in because Apple stuff is really cool,

00:22:17 ◼   ► just like you two did.

00:22:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, wasn't the Retina MacBook Pro his first Mac?

00:22:20 ◼   ► - No, it was before,

00:22:21 ◼   ► oh, maybe it's for his first personal Mac.

00:22:23 ◼   ► But like, I mean, the Apple stuff leaked into his site

00:22:26 ◼   ► sort of slowly and then they just all got hooked.

00:22:29 ◼   ► I mean, it happened at Ars Technica too.

00:22:30 ◼   ► I may have had something to do with that.

00:22:32 ◼   ► - It's a lot like the way I read Ars Technica.

00:22:34 ◼   ► Like I always read your reviews

00:22:36 ◼   ► and then I'll read occasional things here and there.

00:22:38 ◼   ► I read occasional things that are non-tech.

00:22:40 ◼   ► I can't say I read every single post

00:22:43 ◼   ► by any stretch of the imagination.

00:22:45 ◼   ► - Well, like Marco said, in recent years,

00:22:46 ◼   ► it's been like, if you want a review of the iPhone

00:22:49 ◼   ► that is different than like, you know,

00:22:52 ◼   ► not just a product review,

00:22:53 ◼   ► but the guy who's gonna rip open the CPU

00:22:55 ◼   ► talk about all the art, you know, that's the site I would always go to. That was my go-to site for

00:22:59 ◼   ► that kind of review. Yeah, yeah. And then those are the reviews that I read, but I presume that

00:23:04 ◼   ► there's quite a bit more to a non-tech than just that in those I did not see. Yeah, I go there for,

00:23:08 ◼   ► I mean, they have storage reviews. I mean, there's lots of people writing there. I mean, the site,

00:23:12 ◼   ► I think, is in good hands. Like he doesn't write every single thing on the site, obviously, but I

00:23:15 ◼   ► go there for, you know, reviews about what's next and SSDs and, you know, graphic card stuff. And

00:23:20 ◼   ► That site is, like a lot of the PC-originated sites,

00:23:23 ◼   ► very big on benchmarks, lots of graphs.

00:23:25 ◼   ► You know, if I want to know what video,

00:23:27 ◼   ► how does one video card compare to another,

00:23:30 ◼   ► I do some kind of search,

00:23:31 ◼   ► and I think they have a big searchable benchmark database

00:23:33 ◼   ► for that, like, they're very thorough in that same vein.

00:23:36 ◼   ► They're a great site.

00:23:37 ◼   ► I'll still go to it, even though he's not there anymore.

00:23:40 ◼   ► And I hope he does great things for Apple.

00:23:41 ◼   ► So thumbs up for this move.

00:23:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, good luck.

00:23:44 ◼   ► All right, we are also sponsored this week

00:23:46 ◼   ► by our friends at Squarespace.

00:23:48 ◼   ► Squarespace is the all-in-one platform

00:23:51 ◼   ► that makes it fast and easy

00:23:52 ◼   ► to create your own professional website portfolio

00:23:55 ◼   ► and online store.

00:23:56 ◼   ► For a free trial and 10% off, visit squarespace.com

00:24:00 ◼   ► and enter offer code ATP at checkout.

00:24:03 ◼   ► A better web starts with your website.

00:24:05 ◼   ► Now Squarespace, they are simple and easy.

00:24:08 ◼   ► I told the story last week about how

00:24:10 ◼   ► I was tasked with redoing a website

00:24:14 ◼   ► for a group that I work with,

00:24:16 ◼   ► and my job was to put myself out of a job

00:24:19 ◼   ► as quickly as possible so they wouldn't need to come

00:24:21 ◼   ► to me for anything. (laughs)

00:24:23 ◼   ► And they were gonna go with some kind of custom development,

00:24:25 ◼   ► self-hosted thing, and I basically said,

00:24:28 ◼   ► hey, give me an hour, and I'll show you an alternative,

00:24:32 ◼   ► and then we can decide.

00:24:34 ◼   ► And I took an hour, and I copied their entire site

00:24:37 ◼   ► into Squarespace, and I gave them a nice modern theme

00:24:40 ◼   ► and everything, and it was glorious how easy it was,

00:24:44 ◼   ► how quickly I was able to do it and how great it looked.

00:24:47 ◼   ► Their old site was really antiquated

00:24:49 ◼   ► and probably made in the 90s, really, really old site.

00:24:52 ◼   ► And I got this new site going in one hour

00:24:55 ◼   ► and I showed it to them and I was, look here,

00:24:57 ◼   ► if you want, we can talk about your other option

00:24:59 ◼   ► or we can do this.

00:25:01 ◼   ► And this costs 10 bucks a month

00:25:03 ◼   ► instead of $3,000 plus hosting.

00:25:07 ◼   ► 10 bucks a month, you get all this stuff for free

00:25:09 ◼   ► and then you don't have to worry about it.

00:25:10 ◼   ► You can all edit the stuff as much as you want

00:25:12 ◼   ► without having to go through me or any of the developers.

00:25:15 ◼   ► You can change things, you can change the theme,

00:25:17 ◼   ► you can change the colors, you can change the pictures,

00:25:19 ◼   ► you can change all this stuff yourself.

00:25:20 ◼   ► And if you need help, Squarespace offers 24/7 support.

00:25:24 ◼   ► So you don't need to go through me or any other developer,

00:25:27 ◼   ► you get support from them.

00:25:28 ◼   ► And I met with them again this week to finalize this stuff.

00:25:32 ◼   ► And they're just so blown away that this is even possible.

00:25:35 ◼   ► And how much easier, cheaper, and better this is

00:25:39 ◼   ► than what they were going to do

00:25:40 ◼   ► with a self-hosting custom development installation.

00:25:42 ◼   ► And I really, I'm so happy for them

00:25:45 ◼   ► that they get to save a bunch of money and effort,

00:25:47 ◼   ► and I'm so happy for myself, I don't have to do any work,

00:25:49 ◼   ► and so everybody wins.

00:25:51 ◼   ► If you also want this, go to squarespace.com,

00:25:53 ◼   ► check it out, start a free trial.

00:25:54 ◼   ► You can get a free trial with no credit card required,

00:25:57 ◼   ► it's a real free trial.

00:25:59 ◼   ► I'm still on their free trial for this,

00:26:00 ◼   ► 'cause they're about to buy it,

00:26:01 ◼   ► I think in the next couple days,

00:26:02 ◼   ► and we, you know, 'cause I don't have their credit card

00:26:04 ◼   ► and all this stuff.

00:26:05 ◼   ► Anyway, I was able to do all this

00:26:06 ◼   ► without even having their credit card, just set it up.

00:26:08 ◼   ► It's great.

00:26:09 ◼   ► go to squarespace.com, check this out.

00:26:11 ◼   ► Start building your website today.

00:26:12 ◼   ► You don't even need to pay.

00:26:14 ◼   ► I didn't, start building your website today.

00:26:16 ◼   ► When you decide to sign up for Squarespace,

00:26:17 ◼   ► please make sure to use the offer code ATP.

00:26:20 ◼   ► That will get you 10% off your first purchase there

00:26:23 ◼   ► and that will also show your support for our show.

00:26:25 ◼   ► That'll tell them that you came from here

00:26:27 ◼   ► and they'll keep buying ads to help support us.

00:26:29 ◼   ► So please do that, use offer code ATP.

00:26:31 ◼   ► Thank you very much to Squarespace once again

00:26:33 ◼   ► for sponsoring our show.

00:26:35 ◼   ► A better web starts with your website.

00:26:38 ◼   ► Okay, so also this week, this week has been a rough week, but this week it's been even

00:26:45 ◼   ► more rough for a bunch of celebrities, and I believe all of them, or nearly all of them,

00:26:51 ◼   ► are women.

00:26:53 ◼   ► And they seem to have been targeted in order to get access to pictures that really the

00:27:00 ◼   ► internet should not have access to.

00:27:03 ◼   ► And what has happened is there's a ton of celebrities.

00:27:06 ◼   ► I heard, and I honestly don't know how long the list is, but I heard it was like 50 or

00:27:10 ◼   ► 100 names long, a ton of celebrities that have had private photographs stolen from them

00:27:18 ◼   ► and posted around the internet.

00:27:20 ◼   ► And when this first happened, everyone seemed to blame iCloud.

00:27:25 ◼   ► And the going theory was that, I believe it was Find My iPhone specifically, did not have

00:27:31 ◼   ► rate limiting when you attempted to log into it.

00:27:34 ◼   ► So some enterprising, if you could call it that, individuals started firing away brute

00:27:41 ◼   ► force dictionary attacks against the Find My iPhone service, trying to figure out what

00:27:47 ◼   ► the iCloud password is for all these celebrities.

00:27:52 ◼   ► And eventually, by some mechanism, be it social engineering or this Find My iPhone thing or

00:27:57 ◼   ► whatever, they seem to have gotten access to a bunch of celebrities' private photographs

00:28:03 ◼   ► which have been leaked.

00:28:04 ◼   ► And so since this happened a few days ago, there's been a lot of debate whether or not

00:28:09 ◼   ► this is really the fault of Apple and iCloud.

00:28:12 ◼   ► And there's a lot of thoughts I have on this, but let me start with you, Jon.

00:28:18 ◼   ► Do you think this is Apple or do you think this is something else?

00:28:21 ◼   ► Where do you land on all this?

00:28:22 ◼   ► Well, here's the thing with the story.

00:28:25 ◼   ► The facts are thin on the ground.

00:28:29 ◼   ► It's not clear at all about anything about this.

00:28:31 ◼   ► Did the pictures come from Apple or from multiple places?

00:28:34 ◼   ► Are they old pictures?

00:28:35 ◼   ► Are they new pictures?

00:28:36 ◼   ► Was it an actual security flaw?

00:28:39 ◼   ► Was it a social engineering hit?

00:28:41 ◼   ► We know nothing.

00:28:42 ◼   ► All we know is these pictures are out there on the internet.

00:28:43 ◼   ► That's the nature of these type of things.

00:28:45 ◼   ► Someone stole a bunch of stuff.

00:28:46 ◼   ► Someone leaked it onto the internet.

00:28:48 ◼   ► We have no idea.

00:28:50 ◼   ► But it brings up all the same issues as we've talked about in the past.

00:28:56 ◼   ► Apple thus far has said they have not been able to determine that there's some kind of

00:29:00 ◼   ► security flaw, like the rate limiting thing has been fixed, so that's not an issue. And they

00:29:06 ◼   ► investigated and basically their statement was something to the effect that there is no like

00:29:10 ◼   ► inherent exploit or security flaw in like software-wise, they seem to be saying, in our

00:29:15 ◼   ► system that caused leaking of these pictures. My guess would be that these pictures

00:29:22 ◼   ► did not all come from Apple and did not all come from wherever they came from recently.

00:29:28 ◼   ► the theory that I've read, and again this is just a theory, it's not a fact, that sounds plausible to

00:29:33 ◼   ► me is that there is sort of an underground trading ring of, you know, illegally stolen digital data

00:29:41 ◼   ► that is fetched from servers where people have backups or whatever, and this was just a leak out

00:29:47 ◼   ► of that sort of little circle of people trading this illegally acquired data. So it's, you know,

00:29:53 ◼   ► because all these are leaked cell phones, they're not leaked from the people who took the photos,

00:29:57 ◼   ► They were stolen from the people who took the photos and then the people who stole them

00:30:00 ◼   ► Kept them to themselves in a little ring and then they were leaked out of that ring

00:30:03 ◼   ► That is the theory and it seems like a plausible theory to me because that type of sort of illegal

00:30:07 ◼   ► Software or illegally acquired digital goods being sort of a secret inner circle and then being pierced by somebody who lets something out and then

00:30:14 ◼   ► the inner circle is revealed

00:30:16 ◼   ► That sounds like a thing that you know, I've seen before on the internet and that sounds plausible

00:30:21 ◼   ► This is definitely people would want to do the question is

00:30:24 ◼   ► How did all these pictures get from the people's phones to the possession of the people who stole them?

00:30:30 ◼   ► And that's where we get into talking about Apple talking about security flaws

00:30:34 ◼   ► Apple is so big surely some of these things came from Apple. We've been through this before with the mat

00:30:40 ◼   ► What's his last name Matt Honan? Yep. Yeah that you know that the security flaws that we've been talked about

00:30:47 ◼   ► and the very worst ones are not technical flaws.

00:30:50 ◼   ► It's like, you know, read Kevin Mitnick's book,

00:30:52 ◼   ► like it's social engineering.

00:30:54 ◼   ► The fact that you can call someone on the phone,

00:30:56 ◼   ► pretend to be someone else,

00:30:57 ◼   ► answer their supposed security questions

00:30:59 ◼   ► that you can just look up on the internet about them,

00:31:01 ◼   ► like where they grew up or where they went to school

00:31:04 ◼   ► or what their mother's maiden name is or whatever,

00:31:07 ◼   ► and get their password, right?

00:31:09 ◼   ► And so that, no matter how strong your password is,

00:31:11 ◼   ► no matter how bug-free Apple security software is,

00:31:14 ◼   ► and the rate limiting thing is a software bug too,

00:31:15 ◼   ► But like even if all that was perfect,

00:31:18 ◼   ► if you can just call someone on the phone

00:31:20 ◼   ► and tell a sob story and get into their account,

00:31:22 ◼   ► like what the hell's the point of the rest of that software?

00:31:25 ◼   ► And that's the most difficult thing here.

00:31:27 ◼   ► You'd like to tell everybody,

00:31:28 ◼   ► "Hey everybody, make sure you have good passwords,

00:31:29 ◼   ► "don't reuse your passwords, blah, blah, blah."

00:31:30 ◼   ► But it doesn't matter if someone just call up Apple

00:31:32 ◼   ► and get all your crap anyway.

00:31:33 ◼   ► And what they're getting is usually like the backup

00:31:35 ◼   ► of your phone, like the iCloud backup of your phone.

00:31:38 ◼   ► And so, you know, and even that is encrypted,

00:31:41 ◼   ► but then once they have it in their possession,

00:31:42 ◼   ► they can decrypt it and you know,

00:31:43 ◼   ► once they get your password, they can do everything.

00:31:45 ◼   ► And it's in the interest of, if there is a group like this that's stealing pictures of celebrities and stuff like that,

00:31:50 ◼   ► it's in their interest not to like go into those accounts and like blackmail them or like erase all their stuff.

00:31:56 ◼   ► They just want to get in, get out, steal their pictures, and you know, this could have been going on for,

00:31:59 ◼   ► I'm sure it has been going on for years and years. And it's not just celebrities.

00:32:02 ◼   ► It's like everybody with an axe to grind and get somebody, you go to one of these little rings and say,

00:32:06 ◼   ► "Hey, can you get me a backup of my ex-girlfriend's phone? I want to see all her naked pictures or whatever."

00:32:10 ◼   ► It's just a criminal enterprise that's exploiting weaknesses in our systems, and they're weaknesses,

00:32:16 ◼   ► unfortunately, that most customers can't do much about except, I guess, complain.

00:32:20 ◼   ► The thing that was most ridiculous and surprising to me was that my understanding was a lot

00:32:28 ◼   ► of people were blaming the celebrities for using iCloud and Dropbox and things like that,

00:32:37 ◼   ► as though it was somehow their fault that somebody went in

00:32:42 ◼   ► and to your point, illegally stole their pictures.

00:32:45 ◼   ► Like, "Oh, you shouldn't have taken naked pictures

00:32:47 ◼   ► and put them on a high class."

00:32:48 ◼   ► Are you kidding me?

00:32:50 ◼   ► That's like saying, well, you left your house unlocked,

00:32:52 ◼   ► so it's your own fault that everything got stolen.

00:32:55 ◼   ► - It's not even unlocked.

00:32:55 ◼   ► It's like, well, you left your money in a bank.

00:32:57 ◼   ► What do you expect when the bank gets robbed?

00:32:59 ◼   ► Maybe you should've left your money in a bank.

00:33:01 ◼   ► Maybe you should think twice about using a credit card.

00:33:03 ◼   ► You know, well, you got your car stolen.

00:33:05 ◼   ► That's what you get for having a car.

00:33:07 ◼   ► I mean, this is not like leaving your house unlocked.

00:33:09 ◼   ► This is like having a car, having a bank account.

00:33:11 ◼   ► Everybody has a smartphone.

00:33:12 ◼   ► It's not an unfortunate bad thing to have.

00:33:14 ◼   ► Everybody takes pictures with their smart,

00:33:16 ◼   ► like it's ridiculous.

00:33:17 ◼   ► It's completely off the wall.

00:33:20 ◼   ► And you know, that's really,

00:33:22 ◼   ► this is not really the issue we're getting at here

00:33:24 ◼   ► with this iCloud hack,

00:33:25 ◼   ► but like what it really comes down to is

00:33:27 ◼   ► if you wanna go like keep cranking up the meta levels,

00:33:31 ◼   ► it's the weird attitude we have.

00:33:36 ◼   ► Maybe it's weird as a species if you look at it really broad view, go out to Mars or something, but certainly in the US

00:33:41 ◼   ► it's weird

00:33:43 ◼   ► puritanical view of nudity and sex that we have that it's like taboo and evil and like

00:33:49 ◼   ► that

00:33:51 ◼   ► the idea that like they're doing something wrong by taking naked pictures of themselves because if you were a good person you would not do

00:33:57 ◼   ► that and it's so and that that's how it's different in people's minds than keeping your money in the back.

00:34:01 ◼   ► Well keeping your money in the back is one thing but taking naked pictures, no, it's exactly the same thing. Two things

00:34:05 ◼   ► They're private that your possession that you're allowed to do. It's your money. It's your bank account

00:34:09 ◼   ► Other people shouldn't have access there your photos. So there's a photo of your plants

00:34:13 ◼   ► Your your house your kids you with clothes on without clothes on suddenly when you take clothes on it becomes this other category of craziness

00:34:20 ◼   ► That anyway, that's a whole we're not gonna fix the the problem of the United States and their

00:34:25 ◼   ► Screwed up attitude towards sex, but that is why that is why you get all this craziness

00:34:31 ◼   ► coming in here where people lose their minds about it.

00:34:34 ◼   ► And it's not even worth discussing that stupidity.

00:34:37 ◼   ► But I think the thing that's worth discussing is,

00:34:40 ◼   ► forget about what they stole.

00:34:41 ◼   ► I don't want anybody stealing backups of my phones.

00:34:44 ◼   ► I don't care what's on them.

00:34:45 ◼   ► Like, that's what we have to address here.

00:34:48 ◼   ► And I just, I wish Apple would work harder to,

00:34:53 ◼   ► I mean, like, so Gruber did a post about how the backups,

00:35:01 ◼   ► You know, the iCloud backups are a good thing

00:35:03 ◼   ► because people are much more likely

00:35:04 ◼   ► to lose all their photos of their kids

00:35:06 ◼   ► because their phone fell in a lake

00:35:07 ◼   ► than they are to get hacked.

00:35:08 ◼   ► And so it's a trade-off between,

00:35:10 ◼   ► well, if you just never do iCloud backups,

00:35:12 ◼   ► you're safe from hacking,

00:35:13 ◼   ► but you could lose all your pictures

00:35:14 ◼   ► and you're much more likely to lose all your pictures

00:35:16 ◼   ► of your kids than you are to get hacked.

00:35:19 ◼   ► And the other trade-off is in any security thing,

00:35:21 ◼   ► it's convenience versus security.

00:35:23 ◼   ► If they didn't have the stupid, you know,

00:35:25 ◼   ► tell me your mother's maiden name

00:35:26 ◼   ► in the high school you went to things,

00:35:28 ◼   ► people would get locked out of their accounts

00:35:29 ◼   ► and they'd be like, Apple would be like,

00:35:31 ◼   ► "Well, sorry, you lost your password.

00:35:32 ◼   ► "We never knew what your password is.

00:35:33 ◼   ► "You can't get it and just have to erase your phone."

00:35:35 ◼   ► And they would be like, "Are you kidding me?"

00:35:36 ◼   ► Like, people forget their passwords like crazy.

00:35:40 ◼   ► And so Apple is trying in the same terrible way

00:35:43 ◼   ► that everyone else is doing to make it

00:35:44 ◼   ► so that people aren't locked out of their phones

00:35:46 ◼   ► when they inevitably forget their password.

00:35:49 ◼   ► But what is it that you can replace a password with

00:35:51 ◼   ► that is as secure as a password or more secure

00:35:54 ◼   ► that people won't forget?

00:35:55 ◼   ► Like, there's no good solution for that,

00:35:57 ◼   ► except for maybe like touch ID or I think that like,

00:36:01 ◼   ► if I had to advise Apple on how to address this,

00:36:04 ◼   ► I would go more towards like the other systems

00:36:07 ◼   ► that we have for identity, like,

00:36:09 ◼   ► I don't know, do a video call with somebody

00:36:11 ◼   ► and record a video of them, get in touch with them,

00:36:13 ◼   ► make them prove through a trusted third party

00:36:15 ◼   ► that they are who they are,

00:36:16 ◼   ► some sort of really annoying process

00:36:18 ◼   ► that if you were concerned about security,

00:36:21 ◼   ► you could prove to them in a way,

00:36:23 ◼   ► in many different factors that you were who you were.

00:36:25 ◼   ► And then if someone wanted to reset their password,

00:36:28 ◼   ► they would have to reproduce that extremely annoying,

00:36:32 ◼   ► you know, proof that you are who you are.

00:36:35 ◼   ► But most people don't wanna do that.

00:36:37 ◼   ► And so Apple is kind of trying to aim

00:36:39 ◼   ► for the correct balance between security and convenience

00:36:43 ◼   ► that inconvenience is the fewest number of people.

00:36:46 ◼   ► But it is a trade-off and it is an imperfect trade-off

00:36:49 ◼   ► and it's an increasingly imperfect trade-off

00:36:51 ◼   ► when now it's so easy to find out the answers

00:36:54 ◼   ► people's security questions by just like trolling their Facebook and stuff.

00:36:57 ◼   ► Yeah, and I'm glad you jumped on me a few minutes ago in saying that it's like leaving your house

00:37:02 ◼   ► unlocked. That was an unfair analogy and you're absolutely right. These people did nothing wrong,

00:37:08 ◼   ► either by means of a flaw in Apple systems or perhaps some social engineering. They had

00:37:16 ◼   ► something stolen from them and that's just not fair. And the one interesting thing to me is that

00:37:22 ◼   ► When the internet decided that this was all Apple and iCloud's fault, nobody seemed to think that was

00:37:31 ◼   ► surprising. And that's a problem. Like if everyone, if there's this great, huge security leak,

00:37:40 ◼   ► and everyone says, "Oh, well, you know, that's iCloud," like that's a big freaking problem.

00:37:46 ◼   ► And-

00:37:47 ◼   ► Is a branding problem, you mean, right?

00:37:48 ◼   ► Yeah, and that's exactly right.

00:37:51 ◼   ► And here it is presumably with iOS 8 coming on Tuesday, or well, being talked about on

00:37:57 ◼   ► Tuesday and presumably they're going to talk about a lot of this photos in the cloud stuff

00:38:02 ◼   ► that they talked about at WWDC.

00:38:05 ◼   ► This is not a good time for this to be happening.

00:38:08 ◼   ► And so I just feel like at some point, and I know we've said this a thousand times, at

00:38:14 ◼   ► At some point, Apple's gonna have to get really serious

00:38:17 ◼   ► about their cloud services.

00:38:20 ◼   ► - But in this regard, it's not like the parts

00:38:22 ◼   ► where they're not good at online services.

00:38:24 ◼   ► This is the thing where seriousness won't save them.

00:38:29 ◼   ► It's not like there is something that other companies

00:38:30 ◼   ► know how to do that Apple is refusing to do or is bad at.

00:38:33 ◼   ► There is no good solution to this.

00:38:35 ◼   ► Like two-factor authentication,

00:38:36 ◼   ► where you have to authenticate not just with a password,

00:38:38 ◼   ► but also with something else that you possess.

00:38:40 ◼   ► Either they text your phone,

00:38:41 ◼   ► or someone pointed out today it's kind of ridiculous

00:38:44 ◼   ► with the SMS gateway on the Mac thing

00:38:46 ◼   ► that text will also appear on your Mac,

00:38:48 ◼   ► so if someone has access to your Mac and your Apple ID,

00:38:50 ◼   ► they can get that text too.

00:38:51 ◼   ► But anyway, two-factor authentication helps,

00:38:53 ◼   ► but the reason, it's like,

00:38:54 ◼   ► well, why doesn't everybody do two-factor?

00:38:57 ◼   ► You kidding?

00:38:58 ◼   ► People can't even remember their passwords.

00:38:59 ◼   ► Two-factor is still too complicated.

00:39:00 ◼   ► It's the balance between security and convenience.

00:39:02 ◼   ► And the current balance between security and convenience

00:39:04 ◼   ► is already, from most people's perspectives,

00:39:06 ◼   ► pushed too far into the side of security.

00:39:08 ◼   ► All these passwords they have to remember,

00:39:10 ◼   ► It's a crappy system.

00:39:11 ◼   ► Touch ID, I think, helps,

00:39:13 ◼   ► because that's a security convenience thing

00:39:15 ◼   ► where they can give you additional security

00:39:16 ◼   ► and also a little bit additional convenience.

00:39:18 ◼   ► It's not the usual trade-off that you can do there.

00:39:20 ◼   ► But there is not some obvious thing that Apple can do.

00:39:22 ◼   ► Like, boy, if only Apple was more serious.

00:39:24 ◼   ► The reason it's so easy to hack your accounts

00:39:26 ◼   ► is because it has to be that easy

00:39:28 ◼   ► for all the people who forget their passwords.

00:39:29 ◼   ► And there's just probably thousands and thousands of them

00:39:32 ◼   ► every day who forget their passwords

00:39:33 ◼   ► and use that system for its legitimate purposes

00:39:35 ◼   ► who would be pissed off if they couldn't.

00:39:37 ◼   ► You can't tell somebody, well, all your stuff is dead.

00:39:40 ◼   ► You forgot your password.

00:39:41 ◼   ► You don't remember what it is.

00:39:42 ◼   ► Your backup is encrypted.

00:39:43 ◼   ► No one else can decrypt it but you.

00:39:45 ◼   ► Then you've lost all the pictures of your kids again.

00:39:48 ◼   ► Like, well, I can prove that I'm me.

00:39:49 ◼   ► Like, we don't know who you are.

00:39:51 ◼   ► We have nothing.

00:39:52 ◼   ► And so that's why I think you have to,

00:39:55 ◼   ► it just has to be a social, sort of a change in society

00:39:58 ◼   ► to realize that if you care about your stuff online,

00:40:00 ◼   ► you have to protect it in a way that is inconvenient for you

00:40:04 ◼   ► in terms of proving who you really are.

00:40:06 ◼   ► And at the very least start with having a system.

00:40:08 ◼   ► The two factor is one example of that.

00:40:09 ◼   ► If you care about it, you can go through with two factor

00:40:12 ◼   ► and go through the hassle for the increased security.

00:40:15 ◼   ► They should have a step up from that

00:40:17 ◼   ► that involves like authenticating who you are

00:40:19 ◼   ► in every possible way, using all technology

00:40:21 ◼   ► and our disposal and the legal system and everything else

00:40:23 ◼   ► to really, really prove you are who you are.

00:40:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, and to also quote Ben Thompson,

00:40:30 ◼   ► he wrote a piece today which is in the chat room,

00:40:33 ◼   ► we'll put in the show notes about how,

00:40:35 ◼   ► And I think the way he phrased it is really good.

00:40:38 ◼   ► The problem is that Apple has no reservoir of goodwill

00:40:42 ◼   ► when it comes to iCloud.

00:40:44 ◼   ► And in this case, it may or may not even be

00:40:46 ◼   ► that iCloud was the issue.

00:40:48 ◼   ► It may be, to your point, John,

00:40:49 ◼   ► a bunch of really, really great social engineering.

00:40:52 ◼   ► - But that's still iCloud.

00:40:54 ◼   ► I mean, social engineering of Apple's service.

00:40:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is

00:40:59 ◼   ► it could be that iCloud was reasonably proficient

00:41:05 ◼   ► at blocking these sorts of attacks.

00:41:07 ◼   ► I'm not saying it is or it isn't,

00:41:08 ◼   ► but it could be that it was.

00:41:10 ◼   ► Yet, because we all know and assume

00:41:13 ◼   ► that iCloud is a steaming pile of crap,

00:41:16 ◼   ► as soon as somebody theorized that iCloud was the problem,

00:41:19 ◼   ► the entire internet decided, oh, well, it must be iCloud.

00:41:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause people can't differentiate

00:41:24 ◼   ► between like, well, their services aren't responsive

00:41:27 ◼   ► and their uptime is bad,

00:41:28 ◼   ► versus like security flaws versus social engineering.

00:41:30 ◼   ► Yeah, you're right, it just goes all into the same bin.

00:41:32 ◼   ► And the fact that just iPhones are popular,

00:41:33 ◼   ► iPhones are popular with celebrities.

00:41:35 ◼   ► Celebrities are, you know, like I said,

00:41:37 ◼   ► who knows where these pictures came from?

00:41:38 ◼   ► Some of them surely came from iCloud,

00:41:39 ◼   ► some of them surely came from other places.

00:41:41 ◼   ► Doesn't matter, just really matters

00:41:42 ◼   ► what's the headline of the story.

00:41:44 ◼   ► But I mean, Apple can,

00:41:45 ◼   ► I'm sure Apple won't make reference to this,

00:41:48 ◼   ► I'm assuming they won't,

00:41:49 ◼   ► but like, we'll talk about this in a bit,

00:41:51 ◼   ► on the September 9th event when they're presumably

00:41:53 ◼   ► going to introduce new iPhones,

00:41:56 ◼   ► Touch ID is a step in the right direction with this.

00:41:59 ◼   ► It's, granted, you can fool it

00:42:01 ◼   ► and it's not as secure as whatever and blah, blah, blah,

00:42:03 ◼   ► but it's an additional factor, right?

00:42:05 ◼   ► And they have existing two-factor authentication.

00:42:08 ◼   ► Apple is clearly trying to find ways

00:42:11 ◼   ► to make things more secure and more convenient

00:42:14 ◼   ► instead of just saying, okay, we'll give you

00:42:17 ◼   ► what I was suggesting, which is make it more secure

00:42:18 ◼   ► and less convenient for the people who need that security,

00:42:21 ◼   ► give them the option.

00:42:22 ◼   ► And another thing, in response to this, as I usually do,

00:42:26 ◼   ► I'm like, well, time to change my password again.

00:42:27 ◼   ► I just, why not? (laughing)

00:42:30 ◼   ► Make it even more ridiculous.

00:42:31 ◼   ► Anyway, when I was doing that,

00:42:34 ◼   ► when I tried to log into my Apple ID,

00:42:37 ◼   ► it was like appleid.apple.com or something,

00:42:40 ◼   ► I actually, what I was originally going in was

00:42:43 ◼   ► to see what my security questions were

00:42:44 ◼   ► to make sure they weren't like,

00:42:46 ◼   ► make sure they were nonsense basically

00:42:48 ◼   ► and not the truth or something,

00:42:49 ◼   ► 'cause someone could look up

00:42:50 ◼   ► because they only give you a choice

00:42:51 ◼   ► of like questions that anybody could look up.

00:42:53 ◼   ► And it wouldn't even let me into my account,

00:42:55 ◼   ► like let me see my security questions

00:42:57 ◼   ► or anything about my account

00:42:58 ◼   ► because as soon as I logged in,

00:42:59 ◼   ► it said, "Your password is too insecure,

00:43:01 ◼   ► please set a new one."

00:43:03 ◼   ► Again, I couldn't get to any of my other resources.

00:43:04 ◼   ► I couldn't see my email address,

00:43:06 ◼   ► couldn't see my mailing address, my payment info.

00:43:08 ◼   ► You couldn't get to the interface on the Apple ID site.

00:43:10 ◼   ► Everything worked fine.

00:43:10 ◼   ► I could still log in and use all my stuff,

00:43:12 ◼   ► but trying to manage your Apple ID,

00:43:15 ◼   ► they are apparently trying to enforce better passwords

00:43:18 ◼   ► by deciding whose password is or isn't secure.

00:43:21 ◼   ► So I changed my password to make it more secure.

00:43:24 ◼   ► I also looked at my security questions

00:43:26 ◼   ► and did a security pass.

00:43:28 ◼   ► You can do that.

00:43:29 ◼   ► I don't know how much that protects me.

00:43:30 ◼   ► If someone is really smooth and gets a bad telephone rep,

00:43:33 ◼   ► they could probably still social engineer their way in.

00:43:37 ◼   ► But yeah, I mean, and two-factor helps,

00:43:39 ◼   ► but security's a constant battle.

00:43:42 ◼   ► - And we can all keep talking about how Apple

00:43:47 ◼   ► could add all these things in to make things more secure,

00:43:49 ◼   ► give us options to lock things down

00:43:51 ◼   ► more tightly and everything,

00:43:53 ◼   ► but one of the biggest problems is

00:43:54 ◼   ► if these things are not the defaults

00:43:56 ◼   ► or the only way to do things,

00:43:58 ◼   ► then they're not really gonna protect most people.

00:44:01 ◼   ► And most of these celebrities who were targeted

00:44:05 ◼   ► for this mass theft over whatever amount of time it was,

00:44:08 ◼   ► they would, a good portion of them probably

00:44:13 ◼   ► would have all their phones on

00:44:14 ◼   ► whatever the default settings were.

00:44:16 ◼   ► And so unless you make the defaults crazy complicated

00:44:20 ◼   ► or make that the only option,

00:44:23 ◼   ► having the options is not gonna really help most people.

00:44:26 ◼   ► - Well, celebrities might be motivated

00:44:28 ◼   ► Like it made word who get around amongst celebrities like when you get an iPhone that asks you if you want to use your fingerprint

00:44:33 ◼   ► As a second factor say yes, like you know this this type of thing is something for people who are like

00:44:38 ◼   ► Targeted by likely to be targeted by these attacks even if they're not tech savvy because I think Apple does a pretty good job of

00:44:45 ◼   ► Like during your like phone setup dates like you should set a password passcode

00:44:49 ◼   ► and if you try to say no

00:44:50 ◼   ► It's like you sure you don't want to have a passcode and same thing with touch ID like

00:44:53 ◼   ► They are trying to encourage people to be more secure

00:44:56 ◼   ► And I think socially within groups of people who feel they are targeted for potential hacks have some motivation to talk amongst themselves

00:45:03 ◼   ► And say yes, you know your phone doesn't have a like like lock codes your phone doesn't have a lock code

00:45:07 ◼   ► You should totally have a lock code. Oh your phone doesn't also use touch ID. You should totally use that you know

00:45:11 ◼   ► So there's hope there. I think yeah, so breaking news as we're recording on this Thursday night

00:45:17 ◼   ► Apparently Tim Cook has given a statement or interview of some sort to the Wall Street Journal

00:45:25 ◼   ► because the Wall Street Journal is a bunch of idiots who thinks that they have to block all their content,

00:45:31 ◼   ► all I can read to you is the following. In his first interview on the subject, Apple chief executive Tim Cook said,

00:45:38 ◼   ► "Now it's getting really, really hard to read. Celebrity's iCloud accounts were compromised when the hackers correctly answered security."

00:45:44 ◼   ► Questions to obtain their passwords or when they were victimized by a...

00:45:48 ◼   ► Oh, thank you.

00:45:49 ◼   ► I deleted the thing on the DOM inspector.

00:45:51 ◼   ► [laughter]

00:45:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's the first thing I tried in their paywall,

00:45:55 ◼   ► but they actually don't put the whole text there,

00:45:56 ◼   ► which is a shame.

00:45:57 ◼   ► - The Google trick still works.

00:45:59 ◼   ► - I tried that and it didn't work for me,

00:46:00 ◼   ► but maybe it's user error.

00:46:01 ◼   ► - If I paste this into our Skype chat,

00:46:03 ◼   ► is that copyright infringement?

00:46:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, go ahead, but I don't think we need to read it,

00:46:07 ◼   ► but anyway, you can put a link to it

00:46:09 ◼   ► and do whatever everyone who has a website usually does.

00:46:11 ◼   ► You just put a link to the Google results so people can,

00:46:14 ◼   ► anyway, like they said, there's no flaw in our software

00:46:16 ◼   ► other than the rate limiting, which obviously they fixed

00:46:18 ◼   ► and they found, I'm not surprised that they found this.

00:46:21 ◼   ► that like they can find, okay,

00:46:23 ◼   ► pick some celebrity's account with their permission,

00:46:25 ◼   ► say we'd like to investigate how you got hacked,

00:46:27 ◼   ► find out how they got hacked

00:46:28 ◼   ► with someone called Apple's support line,

00:46:30 ◼   ► answer their security questions, got their stuff.

00:46:32 ◼   ► And that's exactly what I was talking about,

00:46:33 ◼   ► like that, that's not,

00:46:35 ◼   ► the security questions are less secure than a password.

00:46:38 ◼   ► And intentionally so,

00:46:39 ◼   ► because when you've forgotten your password,

00:46:41 ◼   ► they want you to have some way to get your stuff back.

00:46:44 ◼   ► And if you've forgotten your password,

00:46:45 ◼   ► we need to have something that you are less likely to forget.

00:46:47 ◼   ► You're less likely to forget

00:46:48 ◼   ► who your second grade teacher was, right?

00:46:50 ◼   ► than you are to have your password,

00:46:51 ◼   ► but it's also easier to get.

00:46:52 ◼   ► Like it's, you know, it's a trade off

00:46:55 ◼   ► and it is a very bad trade off for people

00:46:57 ◼   ► who could potentially be targeted.

00:46:59 ◼   ► So I think Apple is working in the right direction

00:47:02 ◼   ► with the biometric stuff

00:47:03 ◼   ► and I think they should continue to go even farther.

00:47:05 ◼   ► Who knows, maybe like little pictures, video, voice print,

00:47:07 ◼   ► like we can prove to each other more or less.

00:47:11 ◼   ► We don't have to worry about a couple of generations

00:47:13 ◼   ► having difficulty proving to each other

00:47:14 ◼   ► that we are who we are

00:47:15 ◼   ► because we have a distinctive look, people recognize us.

00:47:18 ◼   ► Eventually there's enough social proof that you are Mark Arment and people see you and

00:47:22 ◼   ► say that's him.

00:47:23 ◼   ► You don't have a twin brother as far as we know.

00:47:25 ◼   ► You know, plastic surgery is not good enough to match you exactly.

00:47:28 ◼   ► We don't have holograms.

00:47:29 ◼   ► They're like, we are in a place where we can prove you are who you are.

00:47:32 ◼   ► We just need to convey more of that.

00:47:35 ◼   ► And we have the thing is we have the technology to convey more of that information about proving

00:47:38 ◼   ► who you are.

00:47:39 ◼   ► We have video, we have audio, we have touch sensors.

00:47:43 ◼   ► We can make this happen.

00:47:44 ◼   ► Our final sponsor this week is lynda.com, L-Y-N-D-A dot com.

00:47:49 ◼   ► lynda.com helps you learn and keep up to date with your software, pick up brand new skills,

00:47:53 ◼   ► or explore new hobbies with easy to follow, professionally produced video tutorials.

00:47:57 ◼   ► Whether you want to learn a new programming language, or create a graceful UI for your

00:48:02 ◼   ► website, or even get your first code open running, or even learn a pro app, something

00:48:06 ◼   ► like Logic or Final Cut to learn how to make podcasts or videos, or Illustrator to illustrate

00:48:11 ◼   ► things and make vector art or whatever the case. All these things. Lynda.com has thousands

00:48:16 ◼   ► of video courses on a huge variety of topics. They have over 2400 courses right now. They're

00:48:21 ◼   ► adding more every week. These courses are taught by industry experts. This is not just

00:48:26 ◼   ► some amateur stuff pulled off of YouTube. This is real in-house stuff produced by Lynda

00:48:30 ◼   ► and it's incredibly high quality. I've seen a lot of these myself. I learned a lot about

00:48:35 ◼   ► how to edit our podcast in Logic,

00:48:38 ◼   ► and it was really very, very good.

00:48:41 ◼   ► I can't say enough good things

00:48:42 ◼   ► about the quality of that material.

00:48:44 ◼   ► lynda.com has courses for all experience levels,

00:48:47 ◼   ► beginner to advanced, and specialty, overview,

00:48:50 ◼   ► all huge variety here.

00:48:53 ◼   ► All this is yours for one low monthly price of just $25.

00:48:58 ◼   ► That gives you access to the entire lynda.com library

00:49:01 ◼   ► as much as you can watch,

00:49:01 ◼   ► 25 bucks a month for unlimited access.

00:49:04 ◼   ► You can't beat that.

00:49:05 ◼   ► With lynda.com, you can improve your skills,

00:49:07 ◼   ► keep up with new technology, learn new software,

00:49:10 ◼   ► learn new versions of software.

00:49:11 ◼   ► Every time there's like a new version of Creative Suite

00:49:14 ◼   ► or Creative Cloud, I guess it is now,

00:49:15 ◼   ► a new version of Microsoft Office,

00:49:17 ◼   ► whenever these things happen,

00:49:18 ◼   ► lynda.com is there to have new videos out,

00:49:21 ◼   ► often on day one.

00:49:22 ◼   ► They will almost always work with the big software vendors

00:49:26 ◼   ► to get pre-release copies of the software

00:49:28 ◼   ► and get training materials

00:49:29 ◼   ► so that they can then make great videos for you on day one

00:49:32 ◼   ► as soon as new stuff comes out.

00:49:34 ◼   ► Courses are broken up into bite-sized pieces.

00:49:36 ◼   ► So whether you have 15 minutes or 15 hours,

00:49:39 ◼   ► you can learn at your own pace on your own terms.

00:49:42 ◼   ► You can also watch these courses from your computer, tablet,

00:49:45 ◼   ► or mobile device.

00:49:46 ◼   ► They even have a higher-tiered premium plan

00:49:49 ◼   ► where you can download them for offline watching

00:49:52 ◼   ► on your iPad or iPhone.

00:49:53 ◼   ► And I think even Android is supported here.

00:49:55 ◼   ► Yes, yes it is.

00:49:57 ◼   ► OK, so anyway, you can also download project files

00:50:00 ◼   ► with a premium plan.

00:50:01 ◼   ► You can download example files.

00:50:03 ◼   ► It's really great.

00:50:04 ◼   ► Anyway, courses are structured so you can learn from start to finish or you can just jump in to find a quick answer.

00:50:08 ◼   ► There's a great indexing of the content. You can click on any phrase. You can see a transcript on the side.

00:50:13 ◼   ► You can click on it to jump to that point in the video.

00:50:15 ◼   ► Now the great thing is you can try this for free. They have a free trial offer here for seven days.

00:50:20 ◼   ► So go to lynda.com. That's lynda.com/atp and you will get a free seven day trial.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Once again, lynda.com, L-Y-N-D-A dot com slash ATP.

00:50:33 ◼   ► For a free seven day trial,

00:50:34 ◼   ► check out Lynda for these great video tutorials.

00:50:37 ◼   ► I cannot recommend them enough.

00:50:38 ◼   ► I've used them myself and they're fantastic.

00:50:40 ◼   ► Thank you very much.

00:50:41 ◼   ► - So we are recording this on Thursday the fourth.

00:50:45 ◼   ► It will hopefully be out on Friday the fifth,

00:50:48 ◼   ► maybe Saturday the sixth.

00:50:49 ◼   ► And on the ninth, Apple is releasing something new.

00:50:55 ◼   ► So it would be wrong of us not to at least spend

00:50:59 ◼   ► a few moments discussing what do we expect to see.

00:51:03 ◼   ► So Marco, what do you expect to see?

00:51:05 ◼   ► - I mean, there's the obvious stuff.

00:51:07 ◼   ► The stuff that like the rumor sites have basically,

00:51:10 ◼   ► there's been enough smoke and enough parts leaks to--

00:51:13 ◼   ► - Stuff we've seen videos of.

00:51:14 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:51:16 ◼   ► Assembled, purported iPhone 6s, right?

00:51:19 ◼   ► - That one even powered on

00:51:20 ◼   ► and showed the firmware update screen.

00:51:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, seriously.

00:51:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I think if you can boot a new iPhone

00:51:26 ◼   ► into DFU mode, I think it's probably confirmation

00:51:29 ◼   ► that it exists.

00:51:30 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:51:31 ◼   ► So I think it's pretty clear we're getting a 4.7 inch

00:51:34 ◼   ► iPhone 6 at the bare minimum.

00:51:36 ◼   ► Now--

00:51:36 ◼   ► - Hold on, I'm not trying to be funny.

00:51:38 ◼   ► The thing in that video that was the 4.7 inch,

00:51:41 ◼   ► 'cause that thing looked huge to me.

00:51:43 ◼   ► - No, no, we haven't seen, we've seen almost nothing

00:51:46 ◼   ► from a 5.5 inch.

00:51:47 ◼   ► I believe somebody got a back panel a couple days ago

00:51:50 ◼   ► or something that might be from it,

00:51:51 ◼   ► but we've seen in general,

00:51:53 ◼   ► we've seen effectively nothing about the 5.5.

00:51:56 ◼   ► - I saw this device, this reported new iPhone

00:51:59 ◼   ► in this person's hand, and I thought it looked enormous.

00:52:02 ◼   ► And if that's the 4.5, 4.7, whatever it is,

00:52:05 ◼   ► man, I don't know if I can handle that.

00:52:07 ◼   ► - Well, see, we're close enough to the event now

00:52:10 ◼   ► that if the 5.5 wasn't a real thing,

00:52:12 ◼   ► you would think that Apple would do that thing it does

00:52:15 ◼   ► where it gets the message out

00:52:17 ◼   ► that maybe a 5.5 is not a real thing.

00:52:19 ◼   ► - Right, like, so there'd be a leaked report

00:52:21 ◼   ► Bloomberg or WSJ saying like, "Oh, well, actually..."

00:52:24 ◼   ► Or even not like... They can make either official statements or statements through people that...

00:52:29 ◼   ► Like, remember in the WRC when they weren't going to have hardware, they made it clear

00:52:32 ◼   ► they weren't going to have hardware without saying they weren't going to have hardware.

00:52:34 ◼   ► They don't care in the months leading up to it. But right before the event, I feel like if there

00:52:39 ◼   ► wasn't going to be two sizes of iPhones, big and even bigger, they would have been saying something

00:52:45 ◼   ► by now.

00:52:46 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:52:47 ◼   ► - Or getting the word out.

00:52:48 ◼   ► So I'm with Marco, 4.7, 5.5 iPhones.

00:52:52 ◼   ► I'm also totally in agreement that everyone has said that the 5.5 is gonna be more expensive,

00:52:57 ◼   ► not just because they wanna differentiate, but because the bigger screen costs more money,

00:53:01 ◼   ► bigger batteries cost more money, and that's a lot of the cost of the phone is in the screen

00:53:05 ◼   ► and the battery.

00:53:06 ◼   ► So yeah, those are the easy ones.

00:53:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's been a couple of very recent rumors, like in the last couple days, saying

00:53:12 ◼   ► that both the iPad Air 2 would be unveiled.

00:53:17 ◼   ► So a new iPad Air with an anti-glare screen,

00:53:20 ◼   ► which sounds interesting, and a better Touch ID sensor.

00:53:24 ◼   ► So apparently there's going to be a second generation Touch ID

00:53:26 ◼   ► sensor that then the iPad will get,

00:53:27 ◼   ► and then the phone, of course, will get it as well.

00:53:29 ◼   ► And another recent rumor is that the wearable device

00:53:32 ◼   ► will be announced, but won't ship until next year.

00:53:35 ◼   ► So there's a whole bunch of recent craziness

00:53:38 ◼   ► surrounding this event.

00:53:39 ◼   ► They're also building that giant white structure

00:53:41 ◼   ► that I think the most plausible speculation people have had is that it's actually a concert

00:53:46 ◼   ► venue for you two to perform. Who knows? What we do know is that anything we say in this

00:53:54 ◼   ► show predicting what's going to be there beyond a new iPhone, we're probably going to look

00:53:59 ◼   ► back at next week and laugh at because we're...

00:54:01 ◼   ► Don't you think we can all be safe in saying that there's a better than 50/50 chance that

00:54:07 ◼   ► they're going to announce a wearable?

00:54:09 ◼   ► I think so.

00:54:11 ◼   ► I feel safe in saying that.

00:54:12 ◼   ► Just because if this was gonna be only an iPhone event,

00:54:15 ◼   ► the invitation would have been more forthcoming.

00:54:17 ◼   ► - Did you see they have that countdown page

00:54:19 ◼   ► for the live stream?

00:54:21 ◼   ► And it's saying like there's so much more.

00:54:23 ◼   ► They're hyping this up a lot.

00:54:24 ◼   ► Apple is hyping this up more than usual.

00:54:26 ◼   ► - Right, and it's a giant venue.

00:54:28 ◼   ► The Flint Center is way bigger than the normal venues.

00:54:30 ◼   ► They invited tons of press to this thing.

00:54:33 ◼   ► It's not like in the little town hall.

00:54:36 ◼   ► It's not in the, it's a huge venue.

00:54:39 ◼   ► They're building this big structure,

00:54:40 ◼   ► which I assume is gonna be either be,

00:54:43 ◼   ► it's not the event's not gonna be there,

00:54:45 ◼   ► so it's either a hands-on area or a YouTube concert area

00:54:47 ◼   ► or like, who knows?

00:54:50 ◼   ► It seems like a much bigger deal.

00:54:53 ◼   ► And you wouldn't do this if it was just a bunch of iPhones

00:54:55 ◼   ► or even if it was iPhones and iPads.

00:54:56 ◼   ► And so what are we expecting from Apple?

00:54:58 ◼   ► Wearables or a TV thing?

00:54:59 ◼   ► A TV thing doesn't seem like it's in the cards.

00:55:02 ◼   ► I haven't heard much smoke about that.

00:55:03 ◼   ► So you gotta say it's a wearable thing.

00:55:05 ◼   ► And I also agree with the rumors that say

00:55:08 ◼   ► it probably won't ship because if it was shipping,

00:55:09 ◼   ► we'd be seeing the leaks.

00:55:10 ◼   ► Like they get to do the same thing they did

00:55:12 ◼   ► with the original iPhone.

00:55:13 ◼   ► Way pre-announce it, because it's not like

00:55:16 ◼   ► you're killing sales of an existing product.

00:55:17 ◼   ► And you have to do all this government FCC stuff

00:55:20 ◼   ► and other things that will cause it to leak,

00:55:21 ◼   ► and plus manufacturing and bazillion other things.

00:55:24 ◼   ► So, you know, announce it first, problem solved.

00:55:26 ◼   ► - Well, and also, I think this, like, so far,

00:55:31 ◼   ► if Apple makes any new product, we see parts leaks.

00:55:33 ◼   ► Like, if they make anything that's gonna ship imminently,

00:55:37 ◼   ► we see parts leaks in advance,

00:55:38 ◼   ► because they're making things at such big scales.

00:55:40 ◼   ► - That people care about.

00:55:42 ◼   ► Things that people care about,

00:55:43 ◼   ► because not enough people cared about the Mac Pro,

00:55:45 ◼   ► and that didn't leak. - That's true.

00:55:46 ◼   ► But they also weren't making that in massive volumes,

00:55:48 ◼   ► and that's-- - Yeah, exactly.

00:55:50 ◼   ► But you don't see leaks of new iMacs,

00:55:53 ◼   ► or for even the matter of laptops.

00:55:55 ◼   ► They're best-selling laptops.

00:55:56 ◼   ► It's like, "Eh, no one really cares enough."

00:55:58 ◼   ► - Well, but again, the volume that they're producing there,

00:56:01 ◼   ► they sell so many iPhones that they can't keep an iPhone

00:56:04 ◼   ► under wraps during the massive ramp-up

00:56:07 ◼   ► of getting the manufacturer and going before launch.

00:56:09 ◼   ► And so they definitely run the same risk

00:56:12 ◼   ► with a wearable thing,

00:56:13 ◼   ► but if they release a compelling wearable device,

00:56:16 ◼   ► they're probably gonna sell a butt ton of them

00:56:17 ◼   ► very, very shortly after launch.

00:56:19 ◼   ► And so they, especially,

00:56:21 ◼   ► well, it's probably gonna miss the holiday season,

00:56:22 ◼   ► but regardless, they're gonna sell a ton of them.

00:56:24 ◼   ► And so they're probably announcing it very far in advance,

00:56:28 ◼   ► if that is indeed what they're doing,

00:56:30 ◼   ► just so they can control the reveal of it.

00:56:33 ◼   ► it crushes them when they have this cool big secret thing

00:56:37 ◼   ► and then the internet ruins it with parts leaks

00:56:39 ◼   ► in months ahead of time or weeks ahead of time.

00:56:41 ◼   ► I'm sure Apple wants to control every bit of the narrative

00:56:45 ◼   ► of how this new device, if it exists

00:56:47 ◼   ► and it sounds likely to exist,

00:56:49 ◼   ► of how this device is unveiled to the world.

00:56:51 ◼   ► 'Cause suppose we just got a parts leak.

00:56:54 ◼   ► Suppose some rumor site had some picture

00:56:58 ◼   ► of some wrist cuff with the screen on the top

00:57:02 ◼   ► and an Apple logo on the back

00:57:03 ◼   ► and that's all we knew about it.

00:57:05 ◼   ► That would be anti-climactic at least,

00:57:09 ◼   ► and possibly underwhelming.

00:57:13 ◼   ► It's like, oh, well, they're just making something

00:57:14 ◼   ► that looks like a nice smartwatch.

00:57:16 ◼   ► And that's all we would know.

00:57:17 ◼   ► And the whole narrative would be controlled

00:57:19 ◼   ► by the rumor cycle and the speculative press.

00:57:22 ◼   ► Whereas if they have this event to show it off to us

00:57:24 ◼   ► for the first time, they control everything

00:57:27 ◼   ► about how it's perceived.

00:57:28 ◼   ► They set the tone, they set the talking points,

00:57:30 ◼   ► they tell us why it's so cool.

00:57:32 ◼   ► And then we get to go around telling everyone else

00:57:34 ◼   ► their talking points about why it's so cool.

00:57:37 ◼   ► That's so much better than trying to fight with the leaks

00:57:40 ◼   ► and trying to stay ahead of the PR on those.

00:57:43 ◼   ► So I think it's very clear why they would do something

00:57:47 ◼   ► like this very far in advance

00:57:48 ◼   ► for a brand new kind of device like this.

00:57:50 ◼   ► - I'm trying to think of when they did it.

00:57:51 ◼   ► Again, obviously, if there's no existing product,

00:57:53 ◼   ► you get to do it because you get to pre-announce

00:57:55 ◼   ► 'cause you're not killing sales of your existing product.

00:57:57 ◼   ► But then if it's an existing one like the phones,

00:57:59 ◼   ► like the things leak,

00:58:00 ◼   ► I think the last one I can remember, well, this is still an original type thing.

00:58:04 ◼   ► I was gonna say, like, the original iPad didn't leak.

00:58:07 ◼   ► People cared about the iPad, people cared a lot about the tablet, and I think they announced

00:58:12 ◼   ► that not too long before it went on sale, but we had no leak in that.

00:58:15 ◼   ► Not that there was that much leak, like, it's a tablet, the whole issue was, like, what's

00:58:19 ◼   ► gonna be on the screen.

00:58:20 ◼   ► But yeah, like, when they've had to combat leaks, like, think about the 5S, like, there

00:58:24 ◼   ► was gonna be a gold one, we already knew it was gonna be gold, and we saw all the parts.

00:58:28 ◼   ► had to, in their presentation, they had to sort of work their magic to say, "I know

00:58:32 ◼   ► you've seen lots of pictures of this gold backplate, and you've seen it compared in

00:58:35 ◼   ► different things, and you've seen the darker gold one, and you've seen the lighter gold

00:58:38 ◼   ► one, and you've seen it next to the grey one, and you've seen different colored blacks,

00:58:40 ◼   ► but we're going to show you a nice highly produced video with this liquid gold melting

00:58:44 ◼   ► stuff and tell you why it's great, and put Johnny Iov up there to tilt his head and tell

00:58:48 ◼   ► you about the diamond cut chamfer and all this other, oh, I'll say chamfer, and it'll

00:58:52 ◼   ► be great, and you will forget all about the other stuff."

00:58:55 ◼   ► You kind of do forget, but you're right Marco.

00:58:57 ◼   ► It's so much better to not have any of that to compete with

00:59:00 ◼   ► and just say your first picture,

00:59:04 ◼   ► your first introduction to this thing

00:59:06 ◼   ► will be through marketing materials that we have vetted.

00:59:08 ◼   ► You'll see it in the best light,

00:59:10 ◼   ► in the context we want you to see it,

00:59:11 ◼   ► and the purposes that we think this thing is gonna do.

00:59:13 ◼   ► And by the way, speaking of purposes,

00:59:14 ◼   ► a lot of people in the chat room have been talking about,

00:59:16 ◼   ► oh, you wanted better authentication for iCloud security.

00:59:19 ◼   ► Well, this wristwatch might help.

00:59:21 ◼   ► Yeah, it might if it has touch ID sensor.

00:59:23 ◼   ► I'm not sure something that's strapped

00:59:24 ◼   ► onto your wrist or on any other part of your body

00:59:27 ◼   ► has any better access to proving you are who you are

00:59:30 ◼   ► other than the same way as that a phone or a video

00:59:32 ◼   ► or some other thing can.

00:59:33 ◼   ► But anyway, that's an angle we can look for.

00:59:35 ◼   ► - It's interesting to me that Apple is so enthusiastic

00:59:41 ◼   ► to have put up a countdown.

00:59:47 ◼   ► It seems so not appley to me

00:59:52 ◼   ► to put up this countdown like this.

00:59:53 ◼   ► I mean, generally speaking, my impression of Apple

00:59:57 ◼   ► is they come out of nowhere and just drop this bomb

01:00:01 ◼   ► and say, "Hey, this thing that you never knew you wanted,

01:00:04 ◼   ► not only is it a thing, but guess what?

01:00:06 ◼   ► You want it."

01:00:07 ◼   ► And it's surprising to me to see this countdown

01:00:11 ◼   ► basically saying this thing that we all know

01:00:14 ◼   ► we're probably gonna talk about,

01:00:15 ◼   ► we're gonna talk about it in four days, 14 hours,

01:00:18 ◼   ► 49 minutes, and four seconds.

01:00:19 ◼   ► - I think they've done countdowns before.

01:00:21 ◼   ► Keep in mind, this is a countdown on a page

01:00:22 ◼   ► where the only line is "wish we could say more."

01:00:24 ◼   ► Like they don't even give you like a bad pun or a hint

01:00:28 ◼   ► or like they've gone so far as to make

01:00:30 ◼   ► the little twisting apple thing

01:00:31 ◼   ► to show a little lion behind it

01:00:33 ◼   ► with the back to the neck thing.

01:00:34 ◼   ► Like they give you some kind of vague,

01:00:36 ◼   ► even if the hint only makes sense in retrospect,

01:00:38 ◼   ► this one they're like you get nothing.

01:00:40 ◼   ► You get a white apple logo and you get a statement

01:00:43 ◼   ► that could only be construed if it's like

01:00:45 ◼   ► I wish we could make Siri say more things

01:00:47 ◼   ► or some BS stuff like that.

01:00:48 ◼   ► Like people are just desperate to mine

01:00:50 ◼   ► any nugget of information.

01:00:51 ◼   ► but they're essentially saying,

01:00:54 ◼   ► you know, I know that you know that I know

01:00:56 ◼   ► that you know that I have a wearable device

01:00:58 ◼   ► that I'm gonna, you know, and that's,

01:01:00 ◼   ► and really like, there's, the stakes in this

01:01:03 ◼   ► could not be higher.

01:01:04 ◼   ► Now first of all, putting aside like the poor CEO of Fitbit

01:01:07 ◼   ► who's gonna be watching this thing chewing on his fingernails

01:01:09 ◼   ► the whole time, right? (laughing)

01:01:11 ◼   ► Putting aside that, this is kind of, you know,

01:01:12 ◼   ► this is Tim Cook's like, not gonna say

01:01:15 ◼   ► make it or break it moment,

01:01:16 ◼   ► but this is an important moment for Tim Cook's Apple,

01:01:18 ◼   ► because previously the big complaint was,

01:01:19 ◼   ► yeah fine, Tim, you're doing well with the company

01:01:22 ◼   ► and the stock price has doubled or whatever

01:01:24 ◼   ► since you took over and selling more than ever or whatever,

01:01:26 ◼   ► but how come you haven't revolutionized the whatever world

01:01:29 ◼   ► and where is the iWatch, where is the, right,

01:01:32 ◼   ► so here's gonna be a new product category.

01:01:34 ◼   ► He's talked about it for a long time,

01:01:35 ◼   ► he's been talking about it probably too long.

01:01:38 ◼   ► If it happens, it seems very likely to happen now

01:01:42 ◼   ► or sometime this year and so this is,

01:01:44 ◼   ► people are gonna look at this and say,

01:01:47 ◼   ► Okay, well finally Apple enters a new product category

01:01:50 ◼   ► under Tim Cook.

01:01:51 ◼   ► Does it look like it's good?

01:01:53 ◼   ► Does it look like it's gonna be popular?

01:01:55 ◼   ► Does it look like a stinker?

01:01:56 ◼   ► Are people down?

01:01:56 ◼   ► And even then, like, you know,

01:01:58 ◼   ► people thought the iPad was a stinker too

01:02:00 ◼   ► and that sold pretty well.

01:02:01 ◼   ► So this is an important moment for Apple and for Tim Cook

01:02:06 ◼   ► and it will be an important rest of the year,

01:02:08 ◼   ► especially if the thing doesn't ship until next year

01:02:09 ◼   ► 'cause we won't really know until like

01:02:11 ◼   ► the first big burst of people who are desperate

01:02:13 ◼   ► to have this thing get it

01:02:14 ◼   ► and then the reviews come in and you know,

01:02:15 ◼   ► the whole nine yards.

01:02:16 ◼   ► So it's an interesting time.

01:02:19 ◼   ► The other interesting thing to me, and we alluded to this earlier, was a dear friend

01:02:24 ◼   ► of the show, underscore David Smith, pointed out the relative seating capacity of Apple

01:02:29 ◼   ► event venues.

01:02:30 ◼   ► The campus town hall, 301.

01:02:33 ◼   ► The urban center, 757.

01:02:37 ◼   ► Flint Center, where Tuesday's event is happening, 2,405.

01:02:42 ◼   ► I mean, obviously, and like you both said earlier, Apple is of the opinion that this

01:02:49 ◼   ► is going to be big.

01:02:50 ◼   ► If you look at the things that were released in the Flint Center, someone tweeted that

01:02:53 ◼   ► as well.

01:02:54 ◼   ► I think it was like the original Mac, the iMac, and then some product that was totally

01:02:57 ◼   ► forgettable.

01:02:58 ◼   ► You know, it's a bigger venue.

01:03:00 ◼   ► That's all you need to know.

01:03:01 ◼   ► It's like, it's way bigger.

01:03:02 ◼   ► It's not even close.

01:03:03 ◼   ► It's obvious.

01:03:04 ◼   ► I mean, they built a whole temporary building.

01:03:05 ◼   ► Like something is going down here.

01:03:06 ◼   ► And if they do this just for iPhones, it would be a terrible strategic blunder.

01:03:10 ◼   ► So it's not just gonna be iPhones.

01:03:13 ◼   ► Well, the iPhones will be great, you know,

01:03:14 ◼   ► I'm sure they will, and very interesting.

01:03:16 ◼   ► And by the way, we didn't even mention NFC,

01:03:18 ◼   ► with near field communications, you know,

01:03:20 ◼   ► the wireless thing that lets you

01:03:22 ◼   ► not touch your phone to something,

01:03:23 ◼   ► but sort of bring it nearby to sort of swipe over

01:03:26 ◼   ► and Apple's payment system that they're working on

01:03:28 ◼   ► has more and more rumors about that of, you know,

01:03:30 ◼   ► the deals they're making with,

01:03:31 ◼   ► group of just posted the deals they're making

01:03:33 ◼   ► with the banks to lower the fees to make, you know,

01:03:36 ◼   ► like it's all like all the things that we've,

01:03:38 ◼   ► We've been talking about NFC and iPhones for years now,

01:03:40 ◼   ► and now it looks like it might actually come to pass,

01:03:43 ◼   ► and that could be integrated with some sort of thing

01:03:45 ◼   ► that you wear as well.

01:03:46 ◼   ► So there's a lot of long rumored things coming to a head

01:03:49 ◼   ► in this September 9th event.

01:03:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think it's gonna be as big

01:03:55 ◼   ► as they're hyping it up to be,

01:03:56 ◼   ► because I think Apple is smart enough to know

01:03:59 ◼   ► not to hype up something that ends up

01:04:01 ◼   ► being another iPod Hi-Fi.

01:04:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, and by the way, I said they invited a lot of people.

01:04:05 ◼   ► I got invited to the event as well,

01:04:07 ◼   ► and much to the chagrin of everybody who knows me,

01:04:08 ◼   ► I will not be at the event.

01:04:10 ◼   ► Oh, come on.

01:04:10 ◼   ► Really?

01:04:11 ◼   ► You are the worst.

01:04:12 ◼   ► Yeah, I know you all hate it.

01:04:14 ◼   ► I hate you so much right now.

01:04:15 ◼   ► I mean, and so--

01:04:16 ◼   ► yeah.

01:04:17 ◼   ► So that's no heater there.

01:04:19 ◼   ► Trust me, there'll be plenty of people there to cover it.

01:04:22 ◼   ► If I went, I wouldn't be covering it.

01:04:24 ◼   ► Are they transferable tickets?

01:04:26 ◼   ► Because if so, I'm in.

01:04:27 ◼   ► No, there's nothing transferable.

01:04:29 ◼   ► Believe me, this will be a well-covered event.

01:04:31 ◼   ► It will be live streamed.

01:04:34 ◼   ► If this ends up being something really major

01:04:36 ◼   ► and like of historic value, you could have gone

01:04:39 ◼   ► and you're not going.

01:04:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, if I could go back in time

01:04:42 ◼   ► to the original Mac intro, maybe I would go.

01:04:44 ◼   ► I've seen a lot of Apple keynotes.

01:04:46 ◼   ► Like maybe I'll regret it, you're right.

01:04:47 ◼   ► But like I'm as exciting and important

01:04:49 ◼   ► as the wearable is to Apple thus far,

01:04:51 ◼   ► I am not particularly personally excited about a wearable.

01:04:55 ◼   ► - You don't even have an iPhone, of course not.

01:04:58 ◼   ► - That's exactly the only reason.

01:04:59 ◼   ► I don't even have an iPhone.

01:04:59 ◼   ► I might get this iPhone.

01:05:00 ◼   ► I could end up getting this iPhone.

01:05:03 ◼   ► Am I going to get a watch?

01:05:04 ◼   ► Look, Casey and I will watch your kids.

01:05:06 ◼   ► We will go to your house and watch your kids.

01:05:09 ◼   ► So you can go to this expense and I have to take time off work and we will buy your

01:05:12 ◼   ► ticket. Yeah, honestly, I am.

01:05:15 ◼   ► I would I would still wait.

01:05:17 ◼   ► I already told that I'm not going. I'm not going.

01:05:18 ◼   ► Ah, I would go have these with Marco on your ticket just to send your

01:05:22 ◼   ► curmudgeonly butt out there.

01:05:24 ◼   ► Oh, you are the worst.

01:05:26 ◼   ► Anyway, I will be watching it live with the rest of the world and I will get the

01:05:30 ◼   ► experience the same way.

01:05:31 ◼   ► I don't need to I don't need to be with the people who are actually

01:05:34 ◼   ► because I wouldn't be covering the event like when I go to WWDC.

01:05:37 ◼   ► I am doing something functional there.

01:05:39 ◼   ► I'm not just there for, you know, for my own edification.

01:05:44 ◼   ► I'm there to do research for a review that I then do.

01:05:47 ◼   ► So do you do anything for fun?

01:05:50 ◼   ► I do. Are you sure when?

01:05:56 ◼   ► Anyway, yeah. Don't anyway.

01:06:00 ◼   ► No, you're not off the hook yet, sir.

01:06:02 ◼   ► You have to at least give us one thing.

01:06:03 ◼   ► You guys can both answer this question for me.

01:06:05 ◼   ► I am confident.

01:06:06 ◼   ► What, do you do anything for fun?

01:06:08 ◼   ► Yeah, name some things I do for fun.

01:06:09 ◼   ► The answer's no.

01:06:10 ◼   ► No, name some things I do for fun.

01:06:11 ◼   ► I guess you might play a video game, but it seems like you hate-

01:06:13 ◼   ► Hey, that's a hard one.

01:06:14 ◼   ► Do you have to think a long time on that one?

01:06:16 ◼   ► Oh, what could he possibly do for fun?

01:06:17 ◼   ► And what else, Casey, do I do for fun that you can think of?

01:06:21 ◼   ► You watch a lot of TV.

01:06:22 ◼   ► And movies that I quote that you don't know.

01:06:24 ◼   ► Yeah, those two.

01:06:26 ◼   ► Don't you get angry with me, sir.

01:06:28 ◼   ► I'm just saying, like, what do you do for fun?

01:06:30 ◼   ► Like I pass through the things you know before, things that I do for fun.

01:06:33 ◼   ► You're like, I can't think of anything.

01:06:34 ◼   ► Oh God.

01:06:37 ◼   ► All I know is, so my dad has used to have, I guess they were like season tickets to

01:06:42 ◼   ► the Fillmore East, which I think was somewhere in either in New York City or

01:06:46 ◼   ► suburb of New York City years ago.

01:06:48 ◼   ► And he had like tickets to freaking every concert that was going on there.

01:06:53 ◼   ► And I think it was a new year's Eve show or something like that, that

01:06:56 ◼   ► Jimi Hendrix was playing and he thought, "Eh, well, I'll see him another time."

01:07:19 ◼   ► And let me tell you, my dad, I think this was like when he was roughly 20 when this

01:07:24 ◼   ► was an option for him.

01:07:25 ◼   ► He is just barely over 60 now and is still complaining about the fact that he didn't

01:07:30 ◼   ► go to that Jimi Hendrix concert.

01:07:32 ◼   ► But no, Jon, you do what you think it's like.

01:07:34 ◼   ► Well, Casey, I did see Steve Jobs's last keynote in person.

01:07:38 ◼   ► Keeping these devices in sync is driving us crazy.

01:07:43 ◼   ► I was sitting next to you.

01:07:45 ◼   ► And Marco.

01:07:46 ◼   ► So I feel like I didn't miss out on that.

01:07:47 ◼   ► And if this is Tim Cook's last keynote and I miss it in person, I'll be okay with it.

01:07:53 ◼   ► You are the worst.

01:07:54 ◼   ► I had a chance to go to the fish concert with the giant meat stick a few years

01:07:57 ◼   ► ago, that new year's Eve concert.

01:07:59 ◼   ► Somebody offered me a free.

01:08:00 ◼   ► Terrible.

01:08:14 ◼   ► And now Ben Thompson's in the chat taunting Marco and I saying, oh, well, I

01:08:19 ◼   ► got an invite too, but I don't think it's worth flying 26.

01:08:21 ◼   ► You people are terrible.

01:08:23 ◼   ► another person is not going. It's like, you know, we're gonna I'm gonna see the announcement in real time

01:08:27 ◼   ► It's not like I'm not gonna know about it. It's not a secret thing that's happening. We're all gonna see it

01:08:31 ◼   ► I'll probably have a better view here than I would in that giant auditorium

01:08:35 ◼   ► It's not like I'm gonna get a review unit. It's not like I'm going to write a review

01:08:39 ◼   ► I'm not even gonna cover the event. There's no reason for me to be there

01:08:42 ◼   ► Well, you could you would probably be invited to the hands-on area at least

01:08:45 ◼   ► Yeah, so you spend five seconds with it until Walt Mossberg slaps your hands away and sits at the table

01:08:50 ◼   ► Is that how they usually go I don't know I know I've never been in one of those hands-on rooms who knows

01:08:54 ◼   ► It'll be fine trust me it'll be okay, so angry at you

01:09:02 ◼   ► Are we done I'm so angry right now oh

01:09:06 ◼   ► My god

01:09:09 ◼   ► This is the worst we have a big after show to get to so I say we're done unless unless you can think of anything

01:09:13 ◼   ► Else to say about the September 9th event last chance to get in predictions

01:09:17 ◼   ► Hi, I have nothing bright to say I'm so angry at you right now. It's clouding my ability to think

01:09:23 ◼   ► Thanks to our three sponsors this week

01:09:26 ◼   ► Harry's Squarespace and lynda.com and we'll see you next week when John is not going to this event

01:09:34 ◼   ► Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:09:45 ◼   ► Oh it was accidental.

01:09:48 ◼   ► John didn't do any research.

01:09:50 ◼   ► Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:09:53 ◼   ► Because it was accidental.

01:09:56 ◼   ► It was accidental.

01:09:59 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:10:04 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:10:13 ◼   ► So that's Casey List, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-E-N-T-Marco-R-Men S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-Racusa

01:10:24 ◼   ► It's accidental (It's accidental)

01:10:28 ◼   ► They didn't mean to (Accidental)

01:10:31 ◼   ► (Accidental)

01:10:33 ◼   ► Tech podcast so long

01:10:37 ◼   ► I'm so glad you didn't know this. Casey has been yelling at me all week about it, but I didn't realize you hadn't even known.

01:10:43 ◼   ► This is going on. You didn't know this Marco? It seems like you didn't. No, I knew. I was just

01:10:47 ◼   ► saving my rage. Yeah, well you did a good job saving it. Yeah. All I know is, I see this is

01:10:54 ◼   ► not a joke. When you told me originally, which was around a week ago, I seriously had a mental

01:11:01 ◼   ► argument with myself debating whether or not to go telling your wife that you got an invite.

01:11:08 ◼   ► And if that- I told her as soon as I got there, what do you think? I'm keeping secrets from her?

01:11:12 ◼   ► I told her, she knows. We discussed it.

01:11:15 ◼   ► I didn't tell your wife because I didn't think that was an appropriate course of action,

01:11:20 ◼   ► and I didn't want to get involved in your marital stuff.

01:11:24 ◼   ► Well, good call, but it's silly to think that I wouldn't tell her.

01:11:27 ◼   ► Well, I told my wife, and she thinks you're crazy.

01:11:30 ◼   ► Yeah, I know. I get that a lot.

01:11:31 ◼   ► Ah, God, I'm so angry right now. All right.

01:11:35 ◼   ► Now that I'm all fired up and angry, let's talk about what's going on with women in gaming.

01:11:40 ◼   ► Oh, man, what a disaster that is, huh?

01:11:42 ◼   ► I read all these things all the time.

01:11:45 ◼   ► Like I follow a lot of people who are involved in the gaming industry.

01:11:48 ◼   ► I follow a lot of people who are women related to the gaming industry.

01:11:52 ◼   ► They post links to articles. I follow those links.

01:11:55 ◼   ► I read them. I read all the blog posts.

01:11:57 ◼   ► I read all like I mean, I I read a lot of gaming sites.

01:11:59 ◼   ► I read all these stories on them in this particular ticket.

01:12:01 ◼   ► I read a lot about it.

01:12:02 ◼   ► So I feel like I'm just soaking in and you just assume that everyone else

01:12:04 ◼   ► knows all the things that are happening, but they don't.

01:12:07 ◼   ► So that's why I think it's worth talking about because not everyone has read 9,000 articles on this already.

01:12:14 ◼   ► Yeah, so

01:12:17 ◼   ► the difficult thing to talk about this is there's no actual like the difficulty of YouTube getting up to speed is like there's no actual like

01:12:23 ◼   ► news there. There's nothing

01:12:25 ◼   ► there's nothing substantive for you to it's all like a meta story.

01:12:29 ◼   ► It's all a story about a story. The substantive parts like that you would think it's like a controversy where there's like one side

01:12:37 ◼   ► and another and they're against each other, but it's almost entirely one side.

01:12:41 ◼   ► It's essentially a bunch of women in the industry who are

01:12:45 ◼   ► fighting for more equality in the most like

01:12:50 ◼   ► tame, non-controversial way you could possibly imagine. The best example of this is Anita Sarkeesian's famous frequency videos.

01:12:58 ◼   ► She had a Kickstarter for it. Go watch these videos that she puts up. It's a critique of the treatment of women in gaming.

01:13:04 ◼   ► It is the most calm, like, gentle, hand-holding, like, non-controversial, like, in some ways

01:13:14 ◼   ► almost boring, like, just--

01:13:16 ◼   ► Emanently reasonable.

01:13:18 ◼   ► Example after example, she is not yelling at you.

01:13:21 ◼   ► She does not have unreasonable demands.

01:13:24 ◼   ► She explains things slowly and carefully in a way that people will understand with clear

01:13:28 ◼   ► language, right?

01:13:31 ◼   ► This is one example of the type of thing that drives people nuts, and that's why there's

01:13:33 ◼   ► is not a controversy because it's like,

01:13:35 ◼   ► what is it that you are opposed to in these things?

01:13:38 ◼   ► All right, so anyway, there's stuff like that out there.

01:13:40 ◼   ► There's articles about her,

01:13:41 ◼   ► there's articles about related issues.

01:13:42 ◼   ► I mean, just the general treatment of women in video games

01:13:45 ◼   ► and actual women who work in the gaming industry.

01:13:48 ◼   ► On the other side of this are people who are terrible

01:13:51 ◼   ► doing terrible things to other people.

01:13:53 ◼   ► Harassing them, posting their personal information,

01:13:56 ◼   ► sending them death threats, sending them terrible pictures.

01:13:58 ◼   ► This goes on all the time.

01:13:59 ◼   ► This is not new.

01:14:00 ◼   ► This is just a flare up of something that happens

01:14:03 ◼   ► time to women everywhere, not just in the gaming industry, but in particular these women

01:14:07 ◼   ► who are doing this terrible thing in the gaming industry by merely talking about these issues.

01:14:11 ◼   ► And in recent weeks it's been getting worse because the terrible people are trying to organize

01:14:17 ◼   ► and trying to be even more super terrible and women are leaving the industry because they can't

01:14:21 ◼   ► take the harassment and I don't blame them for doing it and that's like a victory fee. And so

01:14:26 ◼   ► it's not like you would say, "Well, there's a debate here. There's these people who did these

01:14:30 ◼   ► these bad things and these people got angry.

01:14:31 ◼   ► It's mostly just people doing bad things.

01:14:33 ◼   ► There's no other side to that.

01:14:35 ◼   ► And that's why I've been hesitant to discuss it

01:14:37 ◼   ► because I'm like, well, there's no story.

01:14:38 ◼   ► It's not like we can talk about this bad thing people did

01:14:40 ◼   ► and then people's overreaction to it.

01:14:41 ◼   ► No, we can talk about this completely tame,

01:14:44 ◼   ► totally rational, calm, normal, everyday thing

01:14:46 ◼   ► that happens all the time that is not bad in any way

01:14:50 ◼   ► and then these terrible people.

01:14:51 ◼   ► And so now this has just become a story

01:14:53 ◼   ► about the terrible people of like,

01:14:55 ◼   ► it doesn't matter what anyone,

01:14:56 ◼   ► even if they had done something like

01:14:58 ◼   ► a written a really mean blog post,

01:15:00 ◼   ► It doesn't matter, like they haven't,

01:15:01 ◼   ► it doesn't justify the crazy behavior that's going on.

01:15:03 ◼   ► And so I don't know what more there really is to say

01:15:08 ◼   ► about this other than whenever people ask me

01:15:10 ◼   ► about it on Twitter, my position is that the people

01:15:14 ◼   ► who are angry have no idea what they're angry about.

01:15:17 ◼   ► They think they know what they're angry about.

01:15:19 ◼   ► They think they're angry about ethics.

01:15:20 ◼   ► They think they're angry about people taking away

01:15:23 ◼   ► their games.

01:15:24 ◼   ► They think they're angry about people lying.

01:15:25 ◼   ► They have no idea what they're angry about.

01:15:28 ◼   ► It is the biggest case of self-delusion,

01:15:31 ◼   ► you know, like, and they will never be convinced

01:15:33 ◼   ► that they don't know what they're angry about.

01:15:35 ◼   ► What they are doing is trying, in their mind,

01:15:37 ◼   ► they're gonna be like, actually, what I really care about

01:15:39 ◼   ► is journalistic integrity in the video games.

01:15:41 ◼   ► Already really caring about is that someone is lying

01:15:45 ◼   ► or something like, they make up all these crazy conspiracy

01:15:47 ◼   ► theories and decide that they are really,

01:15:49 ◼   ► that they have a righteous cause.

01:15:50 ◼   ► They do not have a righteous cause.

01:15:52 ◼   ► What they are actually angry about has nothing to do

01:15:54 ◼   ► with the things they claim they're angry about,

01:15:55 ◼   ► which is so easy for everyone on the outside

01:15:57 ◼   ► bubble to see but inside the bubble that's what they really think and they're like oh well you

01:16:02 ◼   ► know they have a million issues they could you could just just look at any of these the reply

01:16:07 ◼   ► streams so any of these people and just see all the things they think they're angry about

01:16:10 ◼   ► these people are not angry about that they're they're they don't know the definition of

01:16:15 ◼   ► intellectual honesty they're intellectually dishonest both with themselves and other people

01:16:19 ◼   ► and it's it's just terrible and by the way this is this is gaming is where we're talking about this

01:16:25 ◼   ► This happens everywhere. Women are treated badly everywhere to varying degrees.

01:16:28 ◼   ► Like, if you don't believe it, talk to a woman in your life and ask them for stories.

01:16:33 ◼   ► And if they actually trust you enough, they will tell you these stories and it will sound

01:16:37 ◼   ► insane to you. And my advice to everyone listening to this and thinking I'm a crazy person is

01:16:41 ◼   ► Like, how do you... what do you do about this? Do you just like...

01:16:45 ◼   ► You know, what can you possibly do about it?

01:16:49 ◼   ► And I think that the thing that you can do about it if you are, and the odds are high,

01:16:55 ◼   ► a plain old American white male person listening to our tech nerd podcast

01:16:59 ◼   ► Just try reading these blog posts and watching these videos

01:17:04 ◼   ► Just like just do sort of like immersion therapy or whatever it is when you just have like

01:17:08 ◼   ► Just just immerse yourself in it

01:17:11 ◼   ► Not the ones you agree with

01:17:13 ◼   ► The other side the people who's saying it would be nice if women were treated better in video games

01:17:17 ◼   ► Just read those for like a year without saying anything

01:17:20 ◼   ► That's the only way I feel like you can get through to people like what you know

01:17:24 ◼   ► What actually what is the reality of the situation on the other side there?

01:17:27 ◼   ► if you just read things that you agree with or try to find things that like

01:17:29 ◼   ► Reinforce your own prejudices and make you feel better about the things that you feel because we were all brought up

01:17:35 ◼   ► We brought this up in the women's show. We're all brought up in a culture that

01:17:37 ◼   ► embeds in us biases, I

01:17:41 ◼   ► You know against all sorts of things

01:17:44 ◼   ► race religion

01:17:46 ◼   ► Gender everything we're all brought up in that environment

01:17:49 ◼   ► We don't want to think of ourselves as bad people. There's a cognitive distance thing going on there

01:17:52 ◼   ► the best thing you can do is just to immerse yourself in

01:17:54 ◼   ► the sort of the equality debate and

01:17:58 ◼   ► That's the only way I think people can get turned around because there's no way me arguing with someone on Twitter is gonna convince them

01:18:03 ◼   ► They're not mad about journalistic ethics and they don't know what intellectual honesty is and they have and they have really have no legitimate complaints

01:18:09 ◼   ► There's no way I can convince them like it's so clear that they're so far gone

01:18:13 ◼   ► There's no point in arguing with them

01:18:15 ◼   ► And the only thing I think in turn people around including people like us who are just like sort of you know

01:18:18 ◼   ► "Well, I'm not really involved in this. I'm not a terrible person. I'm not sending death threats.

01:18:21 ◼   ► I think there should be more equality in games too, but I don't want to get involved because it's a fight."

01:18:25 ◼   ► To get out of that mindset, I think you have to

01:18:29 ◼   ► really understand what's going on. And the way to really understand what's going on in a way that you might feel comfortable with is just to,

01:18:35 ◼   ► if you care about this issue, just to immerse yourself in it.

01:18:39 ◼   ► And read everything everybody has to say. It doesn't mean you have to take it all at face value,

01:18:43 ◼   ► but just feel like you can get a picture of it

01:18:45 ◼   ► that's beyond a picture that just reinforces

01:18:47 ◼   ► the things that make you feel good about yourself.

01:18:49 ◼   ► Read some things that actually make you

01:18:51 ◼   ► feel bad about yourself.

01:18:52 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:18:53 ◼   ► - So earlier today, and I'm not sure

01:18:56 ◼   ► if this is why he's bringing this up,

01:18:58 ◼   ► and I'm gonna bring it up and we'll see where it goes.

01:19:01 ◼   ► Earlier today, I made a perhaps dubious choice

01:19:06 ◼   ► of saying, and somebody said,

01:19:10 ◼   ► "We should talk about this tonight."

01:19:12 ◼   ► And I had said, "I'm not sure how to talk about it, and I'm not sure what to do."

01:19:17 ◼   ► Because I feel like, well, the people who are ostracizing women and threatening women

01:19:26 ◼   ► unequivocally, like Jon said, unequivocally are wrong.

01:19:29 ◼   ► And that's a terrible thing.

01:19:30 ◼   ► And how these people look at themselves in the mirror, I don't understand.

01:19:33 ◼   ► How they sleep at night, I don't understand.

01:19:35 ◼   ► It's terrible.

01:19:36 ◼   ► But I don't want to just shout into the echo chamber.

01:19:40 ◼   ► I want to try to do something to move things forward.

01:19:43 ◼   ► And whether or not I did a good job of portraying

01:19:46 ◼   ► that viewpoint on Twitter in 140 characters minus probably

01:19:50 ◼   ► 20 or 30 characters worth of @mentions,

01:19:54 ◼   ► I may not have done a good job.

01:19:56 ◼   ► But one way or another, I said, the way

01:20:00 ◼   ► in which I approach this I think is nuanced.

01:20:02 ◼   ► And I don't think that the discussion is nuanced.

01:20:06 ◼   ► I think that it's unequivocally these people are jerks,

01:20:09 ◼   ► and that's the end of it.

01:20:10 ◼   ► women should be treated better. That's the end of it. But the way I approach it is a little

01:20:14 ◼   ► nuanced. And I got what I felt was a considerable amount of hate and a considerable amount of yelling

01:20:23 ◼   ► directed at me on Twitter because I had said that I wanted to think for a minute before I spoke.

01:20:30 ◼   ► And it really upset me a lot. And it really bothered me. And I felt

01:20:38 ◼   ► a little bit like I think Marco felt, I think a week or two ago, with regard to the wire cutter

01:20:43 ◼   ► thing. Because here it was, I felt like I was trying to just be intelligent about it rather

01:20:49 ◼   ► than screaming about it. And I was getting yelled at for that. And the thing that was really

01:20:58 ◼   ► upsetting about all this, the thing that really bothered me and continues to bother me about all

01:21:03 ◼   ► all this now that I've got a few hours

01:21:05 ◼   ► to separate myself and relax,

01:21:07 ◼   ► is I dealt with three hours of a handful of people

01:21:12 ◼   ► being meaner than I think was necessary.

01:21:17 ◼   ► And it kinda messed me up for a while.

01:21:21 ◼   ► That was three hours.

01:21:23 ◼   ► Nobody threatened to rape me.

01:21:25 ◼   ► Nobody threatened to murder me.

01:21:28 ◼   ► Nobody sent me disgusting pornography.

01:21:31 ◼   ► nobody like came to your house.

01:21:33 ◼   ► - Nobody said they knew your address

01:21:35 ◼   ► and knew your family's address

01:21:36 ◼   ► and were going to go and kill them.

01:21:37 ◼   ► And it sort of showed you pictures of your family

01:21:39 ◼   ► that they had taken secretly.

01:21:40 ◼   ► - Yes, and I felt like a piece of crap

01:21:43 ◼   ► after this three hours, which had none of those things.

01:21:47 ◼   ► And it occurred to me,

01:21:49 ◼   ► if I feel like a piece of just utter crap

01:21:52 ◼   ► after three hours of people saying,

01:21:54 ◼   ► "Oh, you're not doing enough.

01:21:56 ◼   ► You shouldn't think about that.

01:21:57 ◼   ► Nuanced, are you kidding me?"

01:21:59 ◼   ► three hours of that and I felt like I wanted to crawl in a hole and just go away for a week.

01:22:05 ◼   ► And that was three hours. I cannot freaking fathom what it's like to be a woman in the tech…

01:22:16 ◼   ► well, really at all, but in technology and especially in gaming where there's so many just

01:22:22 ◼   ► absolute jerks. I cannot fathom what it's like. And as much as I didn't want to go through what

01:22:28 ◼   ► what I went through today, which I'm not trying to play the victim.

01:22:31 ◼   ► Really in the grand scheme of things was not a big deal.

01:22:34 ◼   ► But as much as it hurt and as much as I didn't want to go through it today, I'm kind of

01:22:38 ◼   ► glad that that happened because it made what women go through that littlest bit more real.

01:22:46 ◼   ► Because I just got the tiniest, tiniest little taste and I hated it.

01:22:51 ◼   ► I cannot fathom what it's like to actually deal with this.

01:22:55 ◼   ► That's probably one of the only other ways that you could convince somebody.

01:22:58 ◼   ► Now, you don't have this kind of control, but if you did, if you could, you know,

01:23:02 ◼   ► do the Freaky Friday body swap, another movie Casey hasn't seen, and let people...

01:23:05 ◼   ► [laughter]

01:23:07 ◼   ► I have seen it.

01:23:09 ◼   ► Let a bunch of... the original Casey.

01:23:11 ◼   ► I've seen both, you big jerk.

01:23:12 ◼   ► All right, all right. Let a bunch of men see what it's like to actually be a woman. Because,

01:23:16 ◼   ► again, so many things are just in our culture. We don't see them as bad because it's like,

01:23:23 ◼   ► like, well, it's just the way things are.

01:23:25 ◼   ► And there's always something like that.

01:23:26 ◼   ► In every era, there's stuff like that now,

01:23:28 ◼   ► 100 years from now, people are gonna look back on us

01:23:30 ◼   ► and then things that we accept as just the way things are.

01:23:33 ◼   ► One way you can see them is if you suddenly became a woman

01:23:35 ◼   ► and spent a few years as a woman,

01:23:38 ◼   ► and you had spent the rest of your life as a man,

01:23:40 ◼   ► you would be super pissed about how terrible you were treated.

01:23:43 ◼   ► You would be the most angry, obnoxious,

01:23:46 ◼   ► you would just be livid that people don't respect you,

01:23:51 ◼   ► treat you like a piece of meat,

01:23:53 ◼   ► look down on you, talk to you condescendingly,

01:23:56 ◼   ► just all the terrible things that happen to women

01:23:58 ◼   ► all the time, or even are just overly protective of you

01:24:02 ◼   ► or assume that you can or can't do certain things

01:24:04 ◼   ► or whatever, it's difficult to understand what that's like

01:24:08 ◼   ► if you haven't experienced that.

01:24:09 ◼   ► And Casey, you have the experience you had

01:24:13 ◼   ► of people being mean to you and stuff.

01:24:16 ◼   ► Imagine if that happened to you all the time

01:24:18 ◼   ► and then you were looking,

01:24:19 ◼   ► it would feel like an injustice.

01:24:22 ◼   ► you'd be like, "Hey, everybody knows this is happening to me, right?

01:24:24 ◼   ► Like what are you guys going to do about it?"

01:24:25 ◼   ► Because it's not just me, it's like everybody whose name is Casey is getting this kind of

01:24:28 ◼   ► abuse and it's not fair to people, "Just because my name is Casey, I get this kind of abuse."

01:24:32 ◼   ► And me and the rest of the Casey are like, "What the hell, guys?"

01:24:34 ◼   ► And everyone else is like, "Oh, I don't want to get involved.

01:24:35 ◼   ► Looks like it's a big mess."

01:24:36 ◼   ► Or like they don't want to get comments like this person in the chat room said, "John isn't

01:24:40 ◼   ► an expert on feminism.

01:24:41 ◼   ► He shouldn't talk about it."

01:24:42 ◼   ► And MTW in the chat room says, "Calling them out on it won't change anything."

01:24:47 ◼   ► I'm not an expert in feminism.

01:24:48 ◼   ► That's not a reason I shouldn't talk about it.

01:24:50 ◼   ► and calling them out on it like this is like negative feedback. Oh because I got

01:24:54 ◼   ► involved now I got to deal with negative feedback right? Well yeah I do. Calling

01:24:57 ◼   ► them out I won't change anything. That's why I say like arguing with people

01:25:00 ◼   ► trying to convince them that they're wrong is not a fruitful endeavor. The

01:25:03 ◼   ► people who need to be changed are the people who are good people who just feel

01:25:06 ◼   ► like they need to stay out of it because they're afraid of getting the kind of

01:25:10 ◼   ► feedback we are getting in the chat room, they're afraid of getting the kind of

01:25:12 ◼   ► feedback Casey got. You know that's like you have to you have to decide what you

01:25:19 ◼   ► think is important and if this is actually something that's important to

01:25:22 ◼   ► you you have to be willing to to do something about it and and it's it's

01:25:26 ◼   ► people like us who all agree like oh I totally agree with all these people it's

01:25:32 ◼   ► just that I don't want to get involved well then you're not really helping so

01:25:35 ◼   ► just I mean do something to help like you shouldn't be afraid that you're

01:25:39 ◼   ► going to do something that is going to turn you into a bad person right you may

01:25:44 ◼   ► do things that cause people to give you negative attention and complain about

01:25:47 ◼   ► about what you're doing, you may find out

01:25:51 ◼   ► that there are beliefs that you have,

01:25:53 ◼   ► like this is part of my experience of being steeped

01:25:56 ◼   ► in this stuff for the past several years.

01:25:57 ◼   ► You may find yourself having to re-examine beliefs

01:26:01 ◼   ► that you hadn't even thought were like beliefs at all,

01:26:03 ◼   ► but you're like, well, it's just the way things are.

01:26:04 ◼   ► You will find your own biases.

01:26:06 ◼   ► They will not feel good for you to find these things.

01:26:08 ◼   ► You will realize that you have said things

01:26:10 ◼   ► and done things in the past that do not live up

01:26:12 ◼   ► to the standards that you supposedly hold for yourself.

01:26:14 ◼   ► That is part of the experience.

01:26:16 ◼   ► but I think that is where the fruitful effort

01:26:19 ◼   ► can be put towards.

01:26:21 ◼   ► Not towards trying to save these terrible people

01:26:24 ◼   ► from whatever pain in their life is causing them

01:26:26 ◼   ► to lash out in this way, not by trying to convince them

01:26:28 ◼   ► that they're really not mad about journalistic ethics

01:26:30 ◼   ► 'cause they'll never be convinced,

01:26:30 ◼   ► 'cause they think that, you know, it's like self-delusion,

01:26:33 ◼   ► but by talking to the people who are already on your side

01:26:36 ◼   ► and just getting them to better understand the issue

01:26:40 ◼   ► and to be more willing to do something about it.

01:26:42 ◼   ► I'm not saying everybody has to jump in,

01:26:43 ◼   ► I'm not demanding that everyone take action

01:26:45 ◼   ► But like think of it if you were if everyone named Casey was constantly being harassed and the whole rest of the country was like

01:26:50 ◼   ► Sitting there with our arms folded you going well

01:26:52 ◼   ► I just don't want to get involved in that all the cases like are you kidding me like every day this happens?

01:26:56 ◼   ► You know and all the cases are getting harassed and everyone is like this is okay

01:27:00 ◼   ► Don't you feel like it's not you know it's it's you know, you know bring up the J word, but it's justice

01:27:04 ◼   ► It's like should this be happening. Well, no, it shouldn't be happening

01:27:07 ◼   ► I totally disagree with it, but it's not I can do about it there

01:27:09 ◼   ► there actually is like we need to make it as as

01:27:12 ◼   ► socially unacceptable to have these attitudes towards women. It's already socially unacceptable to harass people,

01:27:18 ◼   ► but it's not socially unacceptable to have all these attitudes towards women that

01:27:22 ◼   ► create these these terrible situations where people have

01:27:25 ◼   ► problems in their life and pain that they redirect in this direction. Why does it go in this direction? It's not random.

01:27:31 ◼   ► It's because of the media and culture that we're saturated in from the day we're born that leads in these directions.

01:27:36 ◼   ► And it's not just video games. It's movies, it's televisions. Everything's equally bad. Not equally bad, but it's bad everywhere.

01:27:41 ◼   ► It may be particularly bad in games.

01:27:43 ◼   ► Again, if you think this is all crazy talk, I encourage you to just watch the Feminist Frequency videos. We'll link them.

01:27:49 ◼   ► They are not super entertaining. You will not be blown away by witty jokes and everything like that, right?

01:27:54 ◼   ► Sometimes they're depressing. Sometimes they're just plain boring. Just watch them.

01:27:58 ◼   ► Don't, like, watch them and think you have to agree or disagree.

01:28:01 ◼   ► Don't watch them and think you have to go out and change the world or you have to send her angry email.

01:28:05 ◼   ► Just watch them. That's a start. Read articles about them. Read things that you disagree with.

01:28:11 ◼   ► and just try to understand the issue.

01:28:14 ◼   ► This is to all the good people,

01:28:15 ◼   ► terrible people, just go away, stop being terrible.

01:28:17 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:28:18 ◼   ► - I think it's important too, like what you said,

01:28:22 ◼   ► this has to become socially unacceptable

01:28:24 ◼   ► to a much more severe level than it is right now.

01:28:27 ◼   ► There are certain lines that are considered so offensive

01:28:32 ◼   ► and so socially unacceptable that, for instance,

01:28:35 ◼   ► if somebody tells, suppose you're in a small group of people

01:28:39 ◼   ► hanging out at a bar and somebody tells a really racist joke, like horrible racist joke.

01:28:47 ◼   ► In most groups of people now, that is considered so offensive that, and we have a long way

01:28:53 ◼   ► to go on racism as well, but in most groups of people now, that is considered so offensive

01:28:58 ◼   ► that somebody would be like, somebody would say something like, "Hey, that's not cool."

01:29:02 ◼   ► Like, you know, like you'd be called out on that for doing that in a lot of groups.

01:29:06 ◼   ► Not enough, but in a lot of groups.

01:29:08 ◼   ► And I think you'd be called out in a constructive manner

01:29:11 ◼   ► at this point, especially in the circles we travel in

01:29:12 ◼   ► of our little privileged tech nerds, right?

01:29:14 ◼   ► You would be called out in a way that you would not

01:29:16 ◼   ► immediately be ostracized from the group.

01:29:18 ◼   ► You would be told that that's not cool,

01:29:20 ◼   ► and if you argued about it,

01:29:21 ◼   ► then you would just do it from the outs, right?

01:29:23 ◼   ► But if you're like, oh, you're right, that's not cool.

01:29:26 ◼   ► We're trying to enforce social norms in a way

01:29:29 ◼   ► that doesn't, you're not immediately ejected

01:29:31 ◼   ► from the group if you tell a racist joke,

01:29:32 ◼   ► but if you tell a racist joke,

01:29:33 ◼   ► someone tells you it's racist and you argue with them,

01:29:35 ◼   ► that shows something, right?

01:29:37 ◼   ► or if you argue that it doesn't matter that it's racist. And so we need to get to that point with

01:29:43 ◼   ► sexism issues, and we're not there yet. And again, even racism, we haven't gotten to a

01:29:49 ◼   ► good enough point yet, but I think we're further ahead on it. People like me and Casey, people like

01:29:57 ◼   ► us who are wondering, "What can we do?" I think that's a big thing that everybody can do, that

01:30:02 ◼   ► everybody can start holding the people around them and themselves to a higher standard and to say and like

01:30:08 ◼   ► Call people out if they if they say something and again, you don't have to be a dick about it

01:30:14 ◼   ► You can do it constructively if if you could tell they didn't really mean it badly, you know

01:30:18 ◼   ► Like because again like as I said like this stuff is is subtle. It's it's big into our culture

01:30:23 ◼   ► It's it's very hard to even realize

01:30:25 ◼   ► Yeah

01:30:26 ◼   ► You won't notice it unless unless you've read 8,000 blog posts about stuff with crazy stuff that you don't agree with

01:30:32 ◼   ► unless you just steep yourself in it, you have to re-examine things that you just assume that are just okay,

01:30:37 ◼   ► that's just the way they are. Everybody has these beliefs, everybody. There is no person anywhere in the world who does not have

01:30:43 ◼   ► what are essentially regressive, non-rational beliefs because of the way they were brought up. And you will never examine them if you just

01:30:50 ◼   ► stay within the group of people that you're in, right? You have to extend yourself, you have to become uncomfortable.

01:30:56 ◼   ► Yeah, it's just so tough because

01:31:01 ◼   ► You know what the the things that bothered me that happened with me today. I

01:31:05 ◼   ► Think it was people that were

01:31:08 ◼   ► That that that were trying to defend

01:31:12 ◼   ► Feminism and trying to say, you know, oh this isn't nuanced. It's just plain wrong and oh your opinions aren't nuanced

01:31:19 ◼   ► it's either you you agree that it's wrong or you don't and

01:31:22 ◼   ► What I left that conversation there those conversations with

01:31:29 ◼   ► Even though it was conversations with people who I think by and large I agree with that. This is BS and that it is wrong. I

01:31:36 ◼   ► left with this feeling like oh my god, I'm never gonna talk about this again and

01:31:41 ◼   ► That doesn't help and

01:31:44 ◼   ► Just a few minutes later some person on Twitter started saying that oh tech me out

01:31:51 ◼   ► The tech industry is a meritocracy and oh, there's no sexism there and blah blah blah and for a minute

01:31:57 ◼   ► I thought—

01:31:58 ◼   ► Wait, somebody said that?

01:31:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:32:00 ◼   ► You should look at my—

01:32:01 ◼   ► Oh my god.

01:32:02 ◼   ► —at replies.

01:32:03 ◼   ► Oh, it was absolutely—

01:32:04 ◼   ► That's ridiculous.

01:32:05 ◼   ► Right, that's the thing.

01:32:06 ◼   ► And again, here it is—

01:32:08 ◼   ► That's worse than John not going to the Apple event.

01:32:10 ◼   ► Only barely, but yeah.

01:32:12 ◼   ► No, I'm just kidding.

01:32:13 ◼   ► But no, that's the thing is that to me, this is so absurd and ridiculous.

01:32:19 ◼   ► And this person was vehemently arguing that, "Oh, you don't know what you're talking

01:32:23 ◼   ► about.

01:32:24 ◼   ► Nursing is 92% feminine or female or what have you.

01:32:27 ◼   ► So clearly that's sexist.

01:32:29 ◼   ► Oh my God, it was so ridiculous.

01:32:31 ◼   ► And for a minute there, I thought, "You know what?

01:32:33 ◼   ► I'm just going to ignore this just completely backwards individual.

01:32:37 ◼   ► And I'm just going to let this go away."

01:32:38 ◼   ► Because I was just right off of being lectured about not wanting to shoot from the hip and

01:32:45 ◼   ► how wrong that was.

01:32:46 ◼   ► And then I thought, "You know what?

01:32:48 ◼   ► Screw that.

01:32:49 ◼   ► This person's being an idiot.

01:32:50 ◼   ► And I'm going to tell them they're being an idiot."

01:32:52 ◼   ► And this kind of gets into the conversation of should you or should you not feed the trolls?

01:32:56 ◼   ► And if there's anything I've learned, it's that I'm not good at drawing that line and

01:33:00 ◼   ► I'm not good at deciding when to feed the trolls and when not to.

01:33:04 ◼   ► But it felt more wrong to me to not do anything and not say anything than to take the easy

01:33:13 ◼   ► way out and just thinking to myself, "Well, this person is just completely backwards and

01:33:16 ◼   ► there's nothing I can do about it."

01:33:18 ◼   ► There's a lot of like tropes if you want to call them that and in this debate and like like I said in the past show

01:33:25 ◼   ► When we talked about you know women in the tech industry and everything

01:33:28 ◼   ► I'm trying not to use all the vocabulary because a

01:33:30 ◼   ► People who don't know what this is don't know the vocabulary and be people who do know the vocabulary

01:33:34 ◼   ► Find it to be charged, but one of the things that you said and that thing which caused people to flare up

01:33:38 ◼   ► I think is the sort of not feeding the trolls thing that is a nugget of net wisdom

01:33:44 ◼   ► From you know from ages ages ago, which is basically like if someone is doing someone is engaging in bad behavior online

01:33:50 ◼   ► Don't engage with them and they'll go away because all they want is attention

01:33:55 ◼   ► and that is an anti pattern when it comes to the women in tech and harassment issue because