80: Tangled in Version Numbers


00:00:00   I want to see you discipline your kids, Jon.

00:00:02   - No, you don't.

00:00:03   You'll see how ineffectual I am

00:00:06   when we meet in person with my kids

00:00:08   sometime in the future.

00:00:10   - Do you use the "I'm really disappointed in you" approach?

00:00:13   - Kids don't care, kids don't care what you say.

00:00:16   You'll learn.

00:00:17   You are the least impressive, intimidating,

00:00:21   they get used to you, is what happens.

00:00:25   In so many respects, they look up to you

00:00:27   and the things that you do have such profound effects on them

00:00:29   but in so many other ways, strangers are much better able

00:00:31   to control and discipline them

00:00:33   until they get used to the strangers,

00:00:34   then they're screwed too.

00:00:35   Happens every school year.

00:00:36   I mean, just ask Aaron.

00:00:37   The beginning of the year, they're intimidated by you,

00:00:39   you're an authoritarian.

00:00:41   At the end of the year, the badly behaved kids

00:00:42   are just like, "I know that person,"

00:00:44   and they just start goofing off.

00:00:46   (electronic beeping)

00:00:47   - Okay, so let's do some follow-up.

00:00:49   So let's talk about iTunes on Windows,

00:00:51   and this was something that I did not know.

00:00:54   So John, you got an interesting tweet

00:00:56   in the last week or so.

00:00:57   - Yeah, obviously none of us know anything

00:00:59   I think the last time I even saw iTunes on Windows, it was probably like in my Windows

00:01:04   XP boot camp partition, it probably made me install it at some point and I probably accidentally

00:01:09   lost it at once.

00:01:10   But anyway, Chucker tweeted that Windows has a bunch of cocoa crap in it.

00:01:14   Apparently there's an objc.dll and a corevideo.dll.

00:01:18   I don't think corevideo is necessarily...

00:01:20   Does anyone remember if corevideo is an Objective-C API or a C API, Marco?

00:01:25   I've never even heard of it.

00:01:26   I mean, there's QuickTimeKit.

00:01:27   But I know I mean like what you're talking about like that and that actually beyond just iTunes for Windows

00:01:31   When they made Safari for Windows there was also a bunch of this stuff. They poured it over like the whole text system

00:01:36   Yeah, which is which is why Safari rendered fonts on Windows the way Macs render fonts

00:01:41   yeah, so anyway iTunes for Windows has been progressing and

00:01:45   Obviously, it's not stuck in the bad old days when it was I mean

00:01:49   It was originally based off those like libraries that they had ported for a quick time for Windows

00:01:53   but it has obviously expanded since then. From what we've heard from various people who still use iTunes on Windows, despite its

00:01:59   foundations being, you know, based partially on

00:02:04   Cocoa and Objective-C stuff, it is still not a good app on Windows. But it's an excellent app on the Mac.

00:02:09   People do not say that either.

00:02:12   Obviously, I see all the feedback that agrees with me,

00:02:14   but what have you guys been seeing of like Twitter feedback and email feedback about iTunes?

00:02:19   I'd say I saw probably two-thirds in favor of you and one-third in our camp roughly. Would you say the same Marco? I

00:02:26   Didn't really see much about this. Although my Twitter streams been filled with other things recently, but I think I

00:02:32   You know, I I think another another point to bring up here which

00:02:37   Isn't directly related

00:02:40   But I think is relevant

00:02:41   The way Apple software works on Windows first with QuickTime player back in the early days and then now then with iTunes and with Safari

00:02:48   It angers so many Windows people.

00:02:51   I know because I used to be one,

00:02:52   because it doesn't work the way Windows software works.

00:02:56   It is not a good platform citizen.

00:02:58   It is not native.

00:02:59   It is like, you know,

00:03:00   an Apple app was dropped poorly onto Windows.

00:03:03   It's always like this giant pile of hacks,

00:03:05   and Windows people hate them.

00:03:07   They absolutely hate them.

00:03:08   Geeks hate them.

00:03:09   And I think that actually contributes a lot

00:03:10   to PC users' hatred of Apple sometimes,

00:03:14   because like, you know,

00:03:15   the geeks have seen QuickTime player for years,

00:03:18   and all the crap it did,

00:03:20   and all the weird stuff it installed,

00:03:22   and the system tray thing,

00:03:23   and all the extensions it took.

00:03:25   It was a really bad citizen.

00:03:28   - Yeah, Safari for Windows didn't catch on for many reasons,

00:03:31   but that is one of the many reasons that it didn't catch on,

00:03:33   because it totally looked like a weird, gross version

00:03:36   of Safari for the Mac somehow made to lurch to life

00:03:39   on Windows, and they finally canned the thing.

00:03:41   What was it, a couple years back,

00:03:42   they stopped developing that?

00:03:44   - Yeah, I think it was about two years ago.

00:03:46   - Yeah, I mean, which is a shame,

00:03:47   because WebKit on Windows is definitely a viable thing to do.

00:03:50   I mean, Chrome is popular on Windows

00:03:52   and Chrome is not particularly Windows-like.

00:03:54   It is more Windows-like than Safari was,

00:03:56   but it just goes to show that Apple could have had

00:03:59   a viable browser on Windows if they weren't so married

00:04:02   to making it look and act as close as possible

00:04:05   as the Mac version, right down to the crazy text rendering

00:04:07   that Windows people hated

00:04:08   because it wouldn't use clear type.

00:04:09   It would use the Mac font rendering,

00:04:11   which looked wrong to everybody who uses Windows.

00:04:16   - All right.

00:04:17   Lightning cables.

00:04:18   Apparently this is becoming the follow-up that never ends.

00:04:21   We have some warranty clarification and damage causes

00:04:25   and other things to talk about.

00:04:27   - Yeah, we didn't talk about warranties last time.

00:04:28   And I said, you know, if you have a lightning cable

00:04:31   that's dead or something, bring it to the Apple store,

00:04:33   maybe they'll give you a new one, maybe they won't.

00:04:35   But I didn't say, what I hope it was clear,

00:04:37   but apparently it wasn't.

00:04:39   If you have something with one of your Apple devices

00:04:42   that goes wrong and it's still under warranty,

00:04:44   you can get a warranty replacement.

00:04:46   Now in the case of cables, there's still a gray area

00:04:48   where if you bring in something that was clearly chewed

00:04:50   by a cat, you're at the mercy of the Apple genius

00:04:53   if they wanna be nice, 'cause I think damage caused

00:04:56   by intentional misuse or something like,

00:04:59   you drop your iPhone in the water unless you have

00:05:01   that special AppleCare Plus that gives you replacements.

00:05:05   Anyway, there are nuances to this, but in general,

00:05:08   if you're within the warranty period,

00:05:09   yes, by all means bring it in,

00:05:10   you'll almost certainly get something new.

00:05:12   What I was talking about is if you're not

00:05:13   the warranty period and you still have a broken cable and you feel like boy this shouldn't

00:05:17   have broken after you know a year and a half you can bring that in and they may give you

00:05:22   a new one and we got some feedback here from Jem who said that the genius of the apple

00:05:28   bar set genius at the apple bar you know what I mean the standard rule is that you should

00:05:34   bring in before it fully splits like before the casing splits open because they're reluctant

00:05:39   to replace it once it's split so it's better to take in early so take in if it looks like

00:05:43   it's wearing out or whatever but then that's just one what one person said

00:05:46   lots of other people said hey I brought it in it was totally mangled and they

00:05:49   gave me a new one I brought something and it was like five years old no

00:05:51   problem gave me no you know lots of people saying they got new ones and it's

00:05:55   not a big deal I don't think anyone wrote in to say they had they took it in

00:05:59   a cable that was damaged and got turned away and you would think you would hear

00:06:04   a couple of those stories but anyway it seems like if you have a damaged cable

00:06:07   if you go to the Apple Store if you're under warranty or if you're nice or both

00:06:10   you'll probably get a new one.

00:06:12   And for the damage caused stuff,

00:06:14   a whole bunch of people speculated about

00:06:16   what might be causing it.

00:06:19   Like ours aren't broken, everyone else's are.

00:06:21   And we talked about pulling it out by the cable.

00:06:22   Another common thing cited by a lot of people

00:06:26   responding to us, who a lot of people attributed

00:06:28   this advice to Apple Geniuses as well,

00:06:29   is don't use your iOS device while it's plugged in,

00:06:32   you know, to the charger or whatever,

00:06:34   because obviously that puts extra strain on the thing.

00:06:36   And I think one person, I wish I had saved their tweet,

00:06:38   but I didn't.

00:06:39   that they had taken to using their iPad

00:06:42   with the lightning cable plugged in the bottom

00:06:44   with the iPad resting on the lightning cable.

00:06:46   So like in portrait orientation,

00:06:48   resting on the lightning cable.

00:06:50   That is not a good, you know,

00:06:52   that's exactly what people like us are thinking.

00:06:54   Like what are these people doing to their cables?

00:06:55   You know, are they resting on the lightning cable

00:06:57   while they read their book?

00:06:58   Don't do that.

00:06:59   That's not, it's terrible for the cable.

00:07:01   Yeah.

00:07:02   - Yeah, just turn it upside down.

00:07:03   You get better wifi reception that way too.

00:07:06   - Yeah, not everyone knows you can do that.

00:07:08   And not every app supports that, right?

00:07:10   'Cause that's a orientation mode

00:07:11   that apps have to actually explicitly support.

00:07:14   - And how about Sandeep Shetty?

00:07:18   - Yeah, good job.

00:07:19   I'm glad you tried to pronounce that one.

00:07:21   - He, I'm assuming said you're right about cable shape

00:07:23   being "Johnny Ive's situation well, sort of."

00:07:26   Tell me about this.

00:07:27   - Yeah, it was a couple of weeks ago.

00:07:28   I was saying, you know, it could be, I was mostly joking,

00:07:31   but I'm saying it could be one of those situations

00:07:32   where strain relief looks nicer

00:07:35   when it doesn't look like the traditional strain relief

00:07:37   with like the little, you know, concentric rings

00:07:39   or ridges or whatever, instead the Apple's cables

00:07:42   just have a smooth, slightly thicker sleeve

00:07:44   over the connector.

00:07:46   And we got a link to a Reddit thread

00:07:48   where someone who used to work for Apple claims

00:07:50   that that is exactly the case.

00:07:51   But the basis of this claims,

00:07:54   if it's he making these claims, I can't tell,

00:07:56   is not particularly solid.

00:07:58   He's basically saying industrial design

00:07:59   runs everything at Apple,

00:08:01   and he finds it totally plausible that, you know,

00:08:04   he says the industrial design department

00:08:06   hates how much strain relief looks like a power adapter.

00:08:09   They would much prefer to have nice clean transition

00:08:11   between the cable and the plug.

00:08:12   But it's not, you know, and then he says,

00:08:14   "I'm sure the engineering division gave every reason

00:08:16   "that robot strain relief should look like the little rings

00:08:19   "and I'm sure they got overridden."

00:08:20   So it's kind of like hearsay and speculation,

00:08:24   slightly more support because this person

00:08:25   used to work at Apple and he's claiming to know

00:08:29   that the industrial design department

00:08:30   hates that little ring pattern type thing.

00:08:32   I don't know, when I was reading this thing,

00:08:34   I was looking down at my headphones that are in my head now

00:08:36   and they just happen to have a strain relief thing of the cable going into the headphone part

00:08:40   and it looks like Apple's. Is it because Sony's engineers hate the little rings too?

00:08:45   I think that thicker sleeve type thing is a vaguely plausible technique for strain relief

00:08:50   it's just not as sturdy as the ring thing because the rings, you know, like

00:08:54   when you bend it the rings knock into each other and make sort of a smooth curve, but

00:08:58   anyway, I'm sure Apple knows what they're doing here, this is not new information to them

00:09:02   they know how many lightning cables wear out, they know how many replacements they have to hand out

00:09:06   If it's a problem, they will address it by either continuing to give out free cables

00:09:12   or maybe the next version will be a little bit stronger, we'll see.

00:09:16   Yeah, for whatever it's worth, I have a large quantity of headphones within eyesight right now

00:09:21   and I just took a look around as you were describing that and none of them have the little gapped ridge pattern.

00:09:27   All of them just have little cuffs at best, similar to the Apple lightning cable.

00:09:31   Yeah, and maybe it's like an expectation of like how much you know people don't expect to be yanking on the cable that goes into

00:09:37   Your headphones right you know even if you're dancing around with your headphone cables. I mean, I don't know like it

00:09:42   It's it's an expectation of you know

00:09:45   What is what does it typically usage look like and I think Apple appears to have misjudged?

00:09:50   The stress and strain of typical usage of lightning cables if our feedback is to be believed

00:09:56   indeed

00:09:58   Now kind of sort of speaking of lightning cables Frank Enderle wrote in to you to say that you were

00:10:05   Slightly incorrect about an assertion you made regarding the cables. Tell me more about this

00:10:11   Information was correct. It was incomplete. I said

00:10:14   secret to knowing how to

00:10:16   Orient an Apple USB connectors to look for the logo the logo faces up if it's a horizontal connector on an Apple device

00:10:22   That is true

00:10:22   That is also true for non-us apple USB devices the logo facing up thing is a part of the USB standard

00:10:29   so of course that doesn't mean that everybody does it because there are plenty of

00:10:32   Vaguely compliant USB devices out there on the market as we all know sometimes

00:10:38   They don't even fit in the plugs or they fit too loosely or whatever

00:10:41   But anyway, that's the USB standard not an Apple standard

00:10:43   In fact, I wonder if Apple is actually in violation of the standard because it doesn't emboss the little USB logo

00:10:49   It just sort of prints it on there. I don't know. I didn't actually read the

00:10:52   a thing of the standard to see if it demands

00:10:54   that it be embossed versus a printed thing.

00:10:58   But there you go, it's not just Apple,

00:11:00   that will work for you everywhere.

00:11:01   - Excellent, man, we're cruising through this followup.

00:11:04   All right, so just a little bit more.

00:11:06   There is a Mac that is sold with an optical drive.

00:11:09   A lot of listeners came out of the woodwork

00:11:12   to tell us that the 13-inch MacBook Pro,

00:11:15   non-retina, just the 13-inch MacBook Pro is still a thing.

00:11:19   It still has a platter hard drive,

00:11:21   And it still has a onboard SuperDrive.

00:11:25   And actually, I just noticed it's labeled in the

00:11:28   specifications page as an 8x SuperDrive, which just made me

00:11:32   remember-- do you remember back in the days when there

00:11:35   were just CD burners, and there were like 52x CD readers,

00:11:39   and they were like 8x burners?

00:11:41   And oh, man, you thought you were so cool when you had like

00:11:44   a 52x reader, and you could load whatever--

00:11:47   Wing Commander 3, well, that's too old.

00:11:49   But you know what I'm driving at.

00:11:50   one of these old CD-based games in no time

00:11:54   and the loading times were instant.

00:11:56   Well, Jon doesn't remember this,

00:11:57   but you remember this, Marco, I assume,

00:11:59   and oh God, those were the days.

00:12:00   - Well, the loading times weren't instant

00:12:01   because first you'd hear the CD spin up

00:12:04   and then spin up further.

00:12:05   It'd be like, vroom, vroom, vroom.

00:12:08   It has to like step through all the speeds.

00:12:10   So everything would just freeze on your computer

00:12:12   while this happened because I think,

00:12:14   I think this was before more advanced buses.

00:12:18   I think at that time, the type of IDE bus they put into,

00:12:22   one device would monopolize the whole bus still,

00:12:25   and which was later alleviated, I think,

00:12:27   but at that time it wouldn't, and so they would just,

00:12:31   like, as you'd sit there hearing that whirlwind spin up,

00:12:34   and spin up, and spin up, everything would just lock

00:12:37   on your computer while that happened.

00:12:38   Yeah, it was a great time for computers.

00:12:40   There was also the Kenwood 100x drive,

00:12:44   which used, if I remember correctly,

00:12:46   seven lasers in parallel and an actual spinning speed

00:12:50   of something like 12X.

00:12:51   And I actually had one of these

00:12:53   and it was a really nice drive.

00:12:54   'Cause it was way quieter than all the other ones.

00:12:57   But for whatever reason that never caught on,

00:12:59   probably just the complexity of it.

00:13:01   - Like you know the X's in like the, you know,

00:13:03   two X, five X, 52X, isn't it times the normal data rate

00:13:07   for the one X CD-ROM, which is super, it's like--

00:13:09   - Yeah, which is, it's 150 kilobytes a second per X.

00:13:12   - Right, it's ridiculous.

00:13:13   So that's why an 8x DVD is putting out way more data than a 100x CD, because DVD data

00:13:18   rate just from how much you get from a 1x spinning DVD is...

00:13:23   Yeah, they reset the rates.

00:13:24   DVD, I believe, DVD is something like nine times the CD speed, something like that.

00:13:29   Man, I never thought I'd need to know these again.

00:13:31   Yeah, and I remember just having this 52x drive and thinking it was so awesome, and

00:13:35   especially since my first CD-ROM drive was way early on, and it was actually, what was

00:13:41   term was it a caddy where you put the cd in a plastic thing with a lid on it and then you stuck

00:13:48   the plastic thing with the lid on it that had the cd inside of it into the cd rom drive and it was

00:13:53   slower than dirt and i remember playing like where in the world is carmen san diego on this

00:13:58   and oh god it was so cool i think this was the 386 machine that we had and then we made it smoking

00:14:04   fast by putting a mathco processor on it nice oh man those were the days this is a good time for

00:14:11   for us to appreciate Apple's URL rot on their website

00:14:14   because that link for the 13 inch MacBook Pro

00:14:16   with an optical drive, look at the URL.

00:14:18   It's www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs.

00:14:22   That's the whole URL.

00:14:23   I checked it like three times.

00:14:24   Like, did I put the wrong link in there?

00:14:26   MacBook Pro/specs is the link

00:14:28   to the one with the optical drive.

00:14:30   The ones to the current MacBook Pro

00:14:31   is macbookpro-specs-retina.

00:14:35   - Weird.

00:14:36   - So like they're not, I mean,

00:14:38   normally they do replacement.

00:14:39   Like, so the new MacBook Pros, you know,

00:14:41   like the OS X page, like there's a main OS X page

00:14:43   and then there's like /preview OS X for the new version.

00:14:46   And when the new version is released,

00:14:47   you know, Yosemite will just be at plain old /OS X

00:14:50   or whatever the URL is.

00:14:51   But somehow retina got stuck in the URL

00:14:53   and they didn't do full replacement on it

00:14:55   and they didn't manage their redirects well.

00:14:57   So anyway, they need to work on that.

00:15:00   At least there's no dot a WOA at the end of it.

00:15:03   - Which do you think will be the last Apple product

00:15:06   to include a spinning disk?

00:15:08   And your choices are probably that MacBook Pro,

00:15:11   the Mac Mini, the iPod Classic, or the iMac.

00:15:14   - Does the Mac Mini come with an optical

00:15:16   as an option anymore?

00:15:17   - No, a spinning disk, like a hard drive.

00:15:19   - Oh, oh, I'm gonna say the iMac.

00:15:23   - Normally I would say the iMac,

00:15:24   'cause I think you're right.

00:15:26   Well, see, the chat's all saying Mini.

00:15:28   I would actually vote for the iPod Classic,

00:15:30   because this thing is just, it's an undead zombie product.

00:15:33   It will never be killed.

00:15:34   - Oh yeah, if they just never get rid of it.

00:15:37   You're right.

00:15:37   It will win.

00:15:39   It will win by never ever changing,

00:15:41   but always being for sale.

00:15:43   Yeah.

00:15:44   Because I could totally see them designing the next iMac.

00:15:46   Because 3 and 1/2 inch drives are pretty large,

00:15:48   physically.

00:15:49   And I can totally see them designing one or two

00:15:52   generations from now an iMac that

00:15:54   is much thinner across the whole thing,

00:15:56   without that big pyramid in the back, much thinner,

00:15:59   and all solid state.

00:16:00   Just like a MacBook Pro.

00:16:01   They're right on a MacBook Pro.

00:16:03   That's why I think the Mini will go,

00:16:04   because its whole thing is it's small,

00:16:06   and you don't expect it to have tons of internal storage.

00:16:10   So it'll go full SSD, but did you see the recent

00:16:12   announcements, like see it has an eight terabyte drive,

00:16:15   three and a half inch, eight terabyte drive.

00:16:16   - Yeah, but Apple's already not,

00:16:18   do they even offer a four terabyte in the iMac?

00:16:20   I don't think they do, I think they talked about a three,

00:16:22   right? - I know,

00:16:23   they're always lagging behind,

00:16:24   but if there's gonna be one machine left

00:16:26   that actually has enough room for a three and a half inch

00:16:29   drive, it's gonna be the iMac,

00:16:32   'cause it's gated by the size of the screen.

00:16:34   I guess maybe they'll get sick of that bulge being so big

00:16:36   and they'll just keep shrink,

00:16:37   do they have 2.5 inch drives in the current iMac?

00:16:39   I don't even know if they still have 3 1/2.

00:16:41   - That's exactly what I was gonna ask.

00:16:42   - They say the chat room says it's 2.5 in the current iMac.

00:16:45   - I don't think that's true.

00:16:47   - I thought it was, but.

00:16:49   - Three people in the chat room said it,

00:16:50   and three people in the chat room are never wrong, so.

00:16:54   - Do three terabyte hard disks at 2.5 inches exist?

00:16:57   I don't think they do.

00:16:58   - All right, now there's that,

00:16:59   now there's the essential in the chat room.

00:17:00   If only we could look this up somewhere.

00:17:02   - I'm on iFixit, I can only go so quickly.

00:17:05   - All right, anyway, we'll move on

00:17:07   and Marco can cut that out.

00:17:09   - No, 'cause if I'm right, I'm gonna leave it in.

00:17:11   - Of course you are.

00:17:12   - That sure looks like a teardown

00:17:14   that has a three and a half inch drive to me.

00:17:16   - Oh, did somebody already post it?

00:17:17   - If this is the most recent one,

00:17:19   yeah, Tyty in the chat posted this link

00:17:21   that clearly shows a three and a half inch drive.

00:17:23   - I was with you, I was about to call you out

00:17:26   and say, no, I'm pretty sure that--

00:17:27   - Dan Stutters in the chat says,

00:17:29   two and a half in the 21 inch iMac

00:17:30   and three and a half in the 27.

00:17:32   - Oh, interesting.

00:17:34   You have failed me for the last time, chat room.

00:17:38   I'm sure that's a pop culture reference I'm missing.

00:17:40   But anyway--

00:17:41   Oh, lord, Casey.

00:17:42   All right, yes.

00:17:43   Let's move on.

00:17:43   So speaking of follow-up that never ends, John Casey--

00:17:48   no relation-- pointed out to me via email that, quote unquote,

00:17:52   "speed match" is coming to Verizon Fios, quote,

00:17:57   "in the coming months."

00:17:59   And so if you recall, I had sold my soul and Sprout

00:18:04   in order to get symmetrical internet.

00:18:08   And this John Casey said that,

00:18:11   "Well, if you were just a patient person,

00:18:14   "you would have been okay,

00:18:15   "and it will be in the coming months."

00:18:16   But let me tell you, my 75/75 internet is magnificent.

00:18:20   - I didn't get one of those emails.

00:18:21   Is it regional?

00:18:22   - I don't know, but I would assume so.

00:18:25   - Yeah, all right.

00:18:25   I'll just wait patiently.

00:18:27   Let me repent publicly that apparently that quote was from Star Wars and now the internet hates me even more than perhaps they might have so

00:18:34   My mistake. I'm sorry internet. So, you know who doesn't hate you

00:18:38   Fracture our friends at fracture are sponsoring our show once again fracture prints your photos in vivid color

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00:20:07   icon printed of it and I hang it on the wall. So now I have this little like trophy row of the apps

00:20:13   I've made on the wall and it looks great. I'll link to it in the show notes. And I've been doing

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00:20:20   every time we do one of these spots and I mention this,

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00:21:20   Okay.

00:21:21   So we had a request from dear friend of the show, Merlin man, and he had asked,

00:21:28   uh, I will quote him, I'd love to hear John's thoughts on the Tivo Romeo OTA,

00:21:34   who it's good for and why, and is it worth it given the fee now I know nothing

00:21:39   about Tivo, so John, can you start by explaining to me what makes the Tivo

00:21:44   Romeo OTA different than other Tivo's?

00:21:47   Do we know that it's not pronounced "O-TAH"?

00:21:49   We do not.

00:21:50   I'm gonna go with that.

00:21:51   Uh, so it's not out yet.

00:21:53   I've read a preview on CNET of it, and that's the only information I have about this thing.

00:21:58   It is a...

00:22:01   Romeo is the branding for the current line of TiVo DVRs.

00:22:03   It's got a little hard drive in it, it's got a CPU, it will record television that comes

00:22:09   into your house.

00:22:10   TiVo Romeo TA, like the name says, gets...

00:22:12   God, I don't even know what...

00:22:14   Over the air.

00:22:15   That's capital T is thrown at me.

00:22:17   Yes, it gets over-the-air broadcasts. It doesn't take in cable through either a cable card or anything like that.

00:22:24   It gets high-definition television from an antenna over the air, and that's all it does.

00:22:29   And it's interesting because I think this is the first TiVo since way back when, since you know, maybe the first version.

00:22:37   I don't remember. The first TiVo I got was Series 2, and I've always had it hooked up the cable.

00:22:41   So I don't remember what the old over-the-air analog stuff was like, but

00:22:45   This one does not take cable input, and it's only 50 bucks for the box, and it's a little tiny box

00:22:50   It has a small hard drive for 50 bucks. You wouldn't expect much

00:22:53   It's a 500 gigabyte hard drive which doesn't actually hold that much high def video

00:22:57   I guess for tuners, which is nice because it used to be for tuners was the top of the line

00:23:02   so they're making some progress there and

00:23:04   Making that technology go down market

00:23:06   And it costs $15 a month, and I think from looking at the CNET article

00:23:12   I don't think there's a lifetime thing like other Tivo's if you don't want to pay a monthly fee for the Tivo service

00:23:17   you can just

00:23:19   Pay a lump sum up front and if you plan on keeping it and using it for more the next number of years you

00:23:25   Can do the math and figure out what makes more sense for you?

00:23:27   I always buy the lifetime stuff with my Tivo's because I use them

00:23:30   Until they die and they haven't actually died yet, so I use them until I buy a new Tivo

00:23:36   I use them until I have gotten my money's worth out of the lifetime service

00:23:40   Frequently, but I don't think there's any lifetime service for this this $50 thing. So yes, it's super cheap

00:23:45   But then you have to pay $15 a month

00:23:48   so

00:23:51   Who is it good for and why I think maybe it's good for TiVo the company

00:23:56   because

00:23:58   it's a way to

00:24:00   $50 will trick people into buying because it's like oh, it's so cheap, you know, like I'm a cord cutter

00:24:04   I don't have cable service or whatever

00:24:06   But I like to watch my local sports or whatever something else that I can't get it in a convenient way if I just get this

00:24:11   $50 box I hook it up to my TV

00:24:13   I'll be able to record local sports games to get to use the same TiVo interfaces on their big fancy boxes

00:24:19   Which as we noted in the last show doesn't use flash anymore. It isn't horrendously slow, which is nice

00:24:23   And you know and they don't either don't think too much about or figure

00:24:28   They'll just you know

00:24:29   Stomach the $15 a month for a couple months to see if they like it and the reason I think this is good for TiVo

00:24:34   Is because once you get used to that experience like especially with cord cutters used to the you know firing up the Apple TV

00:24:40   You're watching something around their iPad

00:24:42   TiVo is super convenient like once you hook it up to your television you stop using your television the way you used to and

00:24:48   You get used to the convenience of having a built-in DVR right there like it's the screen you go to when you want to watch

00:24:54   Television and there's all your stuff, and you say well. I do the same thing with my Apple TV

00:24:58   Or I do the same thing with the HBO go

00:25:01   I guess you'd have to have a cable description of that or a shared password or whatever

00:25:04   But in my experience having used all these different kinds of ways to get video

00:25:07   TiVo is the most like old TV where you sit down in front of your television you turn on and there and you you know

00:25:13   point the remote at the TV and there's your stuff and there's no booting and there's no launching and

00:25:18   There's no waiting for it to wake from sleep and there's no doing any of this other stuff

00:25:22   Even if it's not a fastest interface in the world

00:25:24   It is a convincing sort of replacement for your television that changes the way you watch TV

00:25:28   And the reason I say this is good for TiVo and not for people buying this thing is because

00:25:32   Once you get used to this you're going to want to watch all your TV this way

00:25:37   Oh any television that you watch on a television set? I?

00:25:40   Really feel like once people get used to watching the television like that. They're gonna turn it on look for the show

00:25:46   They want to watch and remember. Oh, yeah

00:25:48   I have to watch that one on Apple TV

00:25:49   and I got a switch inputs and then go over to the thing and then wait for the Apple TV to eat awake from sleep and

00:25:53   Then move the little thing around and hold on and then you button to get back to the top level thing and go into the app

00:25:57   they want and then get an iTunes error and it's just it is you know it's not it's not as nice as

00:26:03   experience as TiVo and a tiny hard drive is not going to hold that much stuff and $15 a month is

00:26:10   just brutal so I can't imagine someone I would not recommend this box to anybody if someone wants to

00:26:16   record television that comes into their house in real time you know time shift it for later

00:26:21   I would recommend they get they either use their cables company DVR if they want to get something

00:26:25   super cheap and terrible. Although many people tell me they like their cable company DVRs,

00:26:30   but anyway it can be inexpensive. Or they get a good TiVo. I think this is like the thin edge of

00:26:35   a wedge for TiVo just trying to say, you know, we think that if we can just get our interface in

00:26:39   front of people they will realize that it's a nicer way to watch television than almost any

00:26:43   of the other alternatives. And I agree with them. It is better. I watch most of my television on TiVo

00:26:47   if I can help it. It is nicer than all the other ways I have to watch television. It's a shame this

00:26:53   This doesn't include the streaming stuff.

00:26:54   I don't know why, maybe they're cheaping out or whatever,

00:26:56   but like the fancy TiVos have, you can watch stuff,

00:27:00   you can transfer stuff to your iPad

00:27:02   and then take your iPad like on a plane

00:27:04   and watch something you pulled off your TiVo.

00:27:05   You can watch it by streaming it over the network

00:27:07   from your TiVo to yourself,

00:27:08   although the bandwidth required to do that with HD video

00:27:11   is pretty terrible.

00:27:12   I've done it a couple of times, but it doesn't look great.

00:27:15   But they don't have those features built into this $50 box.

00:27:17   You can buy this other much more expensive box.

00:27:19   It's like a TiVo stream or something

00:27:21   that adds this capability.

00:27:23   All these are reasons not to get this $50 box.

00:27:25   Don't recommend it for anybody,

00:27:26   but I do recommend if you have any interest in DVRs,

00:27:30   I mean, maybe, here, here's what I recommend for you.

00:27:31   If you wanna spend 15, you know,

00:27:33   you wanna spend like 80 bucks,

00:27:34   so two months for the $15 a month service

00:27:37   plus $50 for the thing, you just wanna try it out.

00:27:40   If you like it, I recommend getting a good TiVo.

00:27:42   If you don't like it, you're out at 80 bucks,

00:27:44   so what, not a big deal.

00:27:46   That's basically all I have to say about this.

00:27:48   - When I first saw this announcement,

00:27:50   whenever it was yesterday, whatever it was.

00:27:52   At first I was like, wow, this is really interesting.

00:27:54   I thought about it and then I realized,

00:27:57   first of all, yeah, the $15 a month is,

00:27:59   while that may at one time have seemed fine,

00:28:02   and also compared to an entire cable subscription

00:28:05   that people are paying,

00:28:06   compared to what some cable companies charge

00:28:08   to rent their stuff, that might seem reasonable,

00:28:10   but compared to what cord cutters are used to,

00:28:13   that's a lot of money.

00:28:14   So I'm a quote cable cutter.

00:28:17   I canceled my cable service in 2006,

00:28:21   realizing that I was just not using it enough

00:28:23   and I would rather spend that 80 bucks a month

00:28:25   or whatever was the difference elsewhere.

00:28:27   And now that I've gone this long without traditional TV,

00:28:31   and so I get most of my shows either through Netflix

00:28:33   or I buy them on iTunes.

00:28:34   I have to pirate stuff occasionally

00:28:35   that I can't get it any other way, but it's very rare now.

00:28:38   It's almost always iTunes and Netflix.

00:28:40   None of these methods have commercials

00:28:43   and none of these methods have the broadcast stream,

00:28:46   the cross promotion crap, the starting a minute off,

00:28:50   all this crazy stuff that you deal with

00:28:52   with TV sometimes or all the time.

00:28:55   And so when I watch regular TV,

00:28:57   like at family houses or something like that,

00:29:00   when I watch regular TV, it is terrible.

00:29:03   I recognize this is a massive first world problem.

00:29:07   That disclaimer aside, it is a terrible experience

00:29:11   and I look at that and I'm like,

00:29:13   it's like going back to using Windows.

00:29:14   I can't believe I ever thought that was normal.

00:29:17   And so I look at something like this,

00:29:19   and if you're the kind of person who is not a cord cutter,

00:29:23   but you're thinking about cutting a cord,

00:29:25   and you were looking at this as possibly a way to do it,

00:29:29   great, that sounds like a reasonable idea.

00:29:33   If you've already been a cord cutter though,

00:29:36   I think this will be a lot like going back

00:29:38   to visit your high school after you graduate.

00:29:40   You're gonna feel like, this is not a good idea.

00:29:43   No, because it's not like watching regular TV.

00:29:45   You don't have to see the commercials and everything.

00:29:47   I mean, you do--

00:29:47   You still have to skip them.

00:29:49   I know, but it's not as bad as--

00:29:51   like, the reason you would ever even consider this

00:29:53   is because there's something you're missing.

00:29:54   And I have to think that it's local sports is basically

00:29:56   what this is for, right?

00:29:57   Because everything else you can get,

00:30:00   or everything else requires cable.

00:30:02   Because you're like, oh, I want--

00:30:03   like, no, watch it.

00:30:04   Do people watch network TV?

00:30:05   I don't know.

00:30:06   Maybe you get this for someone who only watches network TV.

00:30:08   But the reason is to have a DVR, because you

00:30:10   want to watch shows right now.

00:30:12   You don't want to wait for even if it's 24 hours

00:30:13   You just don't want to wait for them to appear on Hulu or Apple TV or whatever wherever they're going to appear

00:30:17   Or you know even HBO go you don't to be locked out of Game of Thrones because everyone slams HBO go because they try to

00:30:23   Broadcast it simultaneously, and it doesn't work right. I never have that problem

00:30:26   I watch Game of Thrones exactly when it airs it's important enough to me that I pay for HBO right so it's either because you

00:30:32   Want to watch it now because you're super impatient and have a lot of disposable income or because there's something you literally can't get any

00:30:37   Place else like local sports because there's a local TV blackout and all sorts of other crap like that

00:30:42   And so that's the market for this thing.

00:30:45   I just think even those people are gonna be like,

00:30:48   geez, is it really worth, I mean,

00:30:50   you bring up cable again, maybe these days you can't get,

00:30:53   maybe this is still cheaper.

00:30:54   Like if you desperately wanna see local sports

00:30:56   but you can't be there for them,

00:30:57   you don't wanna miss a single second

00:30:58   of your favorite team, right?

00:31:00   Maybe this is the cheapest option.

00:31:02   What else?

00:31:02   Because the cheapest you can get a cable,

00:31:04   like if you say, give me the most basic of all basic cable,

00:31:07   because like I mentioned, a cable company is DVR,

00:31:10   but then I realized, if you get a cable company's DVR,

00:31:13   you have to pay for cable.

00:31:14   And how cheaply can you pay for cable?

00:31:15   It's probably more expensive than this.

00:31:18   - Yeah, well basic cable is usually about 15 bucks a month,

00:31:21   but usually by the time you add all the fees and everything,

00:31:23   and it's pretty hard to get those kind of plans these days.

00:31:24   - $15, I would guess it was like you couldn't get

00:31:27   any cable television with any signal over at your house

00:31:30   less than like $40 a month.

00:31:32   - That's standard cable, but I'm talking about basic.

00:31:34   There is almost always a level below standard,

00:31:37   they don't really advertise very much,

00:31:38   but you can ask for it.

00:31:39   This is the level I had growing up, which basically has the networks plus WGN and a

00:31:43   couple other, you know, not a great selection.

00:31:46   The problem I see with this is that it is, you know, compared to what cord cutters pay

00:31:52   for things, this is not expensive, but it's mid-priced, I would say, compared to everything

00:31:56   else.

00:31:58   It's also, though, substantially worse than a real standard cable package.

00:32:04   if you if you have an ATSC antenna and you get enough reception like you can get

00:32:10   Most of the value of this for free. You're just not getting the DVR part. Oh, yeah, you're not getting the commercials

00:32:15   All you're paying for is yeah commercials and in times shifting, but that's like that's worthwhile speaking of you know

00:32:21   That's the worst watching live TV when you can't skip commercials like that is the real bottom

00:32:25   But then like the best you can do is mute during commercials like that is really going back to Windows to use your analogy

00:32:31   Let's go back to DOS having to skip commercials. It's not so bad and

00:32:35   Depending on like I think it's the the AMC shows don't even have that many commercial breaks, but anyway, that's cable

00:32:41   Yeah, I don't know I like I think if you like the experience of

00:32:46   you know being able to time shift and being able to see the shows when you want to see them without having to wait another

00:32:51   day or whatever and and frankly the reliability of you know of

00:32:55   Knowing that you're not gonna get locked out of HBO go and you're not gonna have string problems or whatever or you're not gonna be

00:33:01   subject to stupid ISPs, you know, throttling your Netflix bandwidth and all

00:33:06   sorts of other terrible things that are going on. DVRs like this are still the

00:33:11   most reliable way to get TV when you want it, but I just

00:33:17   think this is not a very good TiVo because it's so expensive monthly and if

00:33:21   you like this, like save more money, I mean you can literally save more

00:33:25   like the CNET did the math and said if you keep this thing for three years

00:33:28   It's like the most expensive device TiVo sells because it's so much cheaper to just get one of the more expensive TiVos and just buy

00:33:33   A lifetime subscription and then keep it for more than three years

00:33:35   You know what? I don't understand is if you're a cord cutter

00:33:40   Oftentimes I would imagine it's because you don't want to spend the money on something that you may not

00:33:47   either enjoy that much or use that much or what have you and

00:33:51   So if you're in that mindset where you're either

00:33:55   I don't mean frugal dismissively, but I can't think of a better word so frugal

00:34:00   or what or whatever the reason is you're cost-sensitive and

00:34:04   Then you're gonna then TiVo saying well actually now that you've saved money by cutting the cord

00:34:09   Why don't you pay us $15 a month for something that really doesn't have?

00:34:15   That much benefit other than maybe skipping commercials and maybe doing a little bit of time shifting

00:34:21   But to me if I'm in that mindset of I'm trying to save money and that's my priority

00:34:26   Then I'll just sit through the damn commercials. It's really not that big a deal. No you

00:34:31   Can't go back to sitting through commercials. Just you just can't oh I do it. I have a DVR. I do it all the time

00:34:37   Oh, I can't do it anyway like the other advantages gives you is the four tuners if you just watch network TV

00:34:44   So you're a bunch of old people you give this to your grandparents or something and all they watch is network TV

00:34:47   And they have a couple favorite shows, but there's time conflict this solves the problem

00:34:51   Right. Yeah, and you can tune to all four of the OTA channels you can actually receive and record them all the same time

00:34:56   You can see all of your TV at the same time. That's the problem. Like it's it's applying a great feature set to

00:35:03   What most people will consider woefully inadequate input like even people who watch network TV shows regularly

00:35:10   They probably also watch cable network shows. Yeah, at least one. There's also other things they want to see like that

00:35:16   That's why I'm thinking like this won't appeal to people who like to like TV too much to cancel cable

00:35:21   it won't appeal to them and it won't appeal to cord cutters because it is both too expensive and not good enough, but

00:35:30   The expensiveness is hidden like the only reason that I think this is an interesting product at all is because they chose to price it

00:35:35   at $50 that's the only reason that it's even worth discussing because I think that will get people to try it and

00:35:41   And I think TiVo is just hoping that they'll try it.

00:35:45   We'll get a little bit of money out of them.

00:35:47   They've probably calculated that the $15 a month

00:35:49   will make up the purpose.

00:35:50   This thing costs more than $50 to make, I'm sure, right?

00:35:52   So we'll get the money out of them

00:35:54   from our outrageous monthly fee.

00:35:56   Maybe a couple of those people we will convert to,

00:35:59   oh, this is terrible, but I would get cable again

00:36:02   if my interface to it was this

00:36:04   instead of whatever it was before.

00:36:06   - All right.

00:36:07   So let's talk about something else.

00:36:10   Let's talk about version numbering.

00:36:13   And today, we had a little bit of news

00:36:19   insofar as there's a new release from our friends at Lickability.

00:36:23   And we're probably going to talk about that

00:36:24   in just a few minutes.

00:36:25   But Brian Capps from Lickability wrote a very interesting

00:36:29   and relatively brief post on version numbering.

00:36:33   And I thought it was a really good post because in summary,

00:36:38   What Brian had said was, you know, version numbering, especially for major versions,

00:36:45   you really don't need a decimal or even multiple decimals.

00:36:50   When you're on version three of an app, just hypothetically, it doesn't need to be 3.0.

00:36:56   It doesn't need to be 3.0.0.

00:36:58   It can be just plain three.

00:37:02   And I just thought, I never really thought about version numbering this way until I read

00:37:06   this post and I thought it was a really interesting take on things and I would definitely love

00:37:12   to hear Marco what your two senses about this and how do you handle these sorts of things

00:37:17   for Overcast?

00:37:18   That's a good question.

00:37:19   So I stressed a lot about version numbers for Instapaper and I would like you know hold

00:37:27   features like oh I have a big 2.0 coming out soon I better hold back this good feature.

00:37:31   Even with Overcast, there's a great feature that I finally figured out how to do recently,

00:37:37   and I thought, "You know, should I save this for 2.0 at some mystery point in the

00:37:43   future and maybe get people to pay again for something?"

00:37:47   And I thought about it, and then I realized that was a bad idea for various reasons.

00:37:53   But I think version numbers need to exist for technical reasons.

00:38:00   There has to be some kind of identifier for the version for the programmers.

00:38:04   But what you expose to users and to your marketing efforts is of course up to you.

00:38:10   I think it's very important to consider version numbers that you're going to be publicizing

00:38:15   as marketing.

00:38:16   It's part of your marketing message.

00:38:18   And it probably matters less than you think most of the time.

00:38:22   Like, so I submitted an overcast version of 1.03.

00:38:25   That has semantic meaning to programmers.

00:38:27   It means that the base version is 1.0.

00:38:30   It is not a major update because it isn't 1.1, it's 1.0.3.

00:38:34   So it's a minor update, probably mostly bug fixes, not a lot of new features if any.

00:38:39   So that means something to nerds like us.

00:38:42   It doesn't mean crap to regular people.

00:38:45   You see like if you see the version numbers for Facebook or Chrome, like the Facebook

00:38:50   app on iOS or Chrome, they're comical, they're just meaningless numbers.

00:38:54   And we, you know, geeks make fun of them.

00:38:56   Facebook will be like, "Version 12.0, change log, bug fixes."

00:39:00   [laughs]

00:39:04   Chrome is like at version 273,000 something

00:39:08   and Chrome just increments the base number every time.

00:39:12   And the fact is, they don't really matter

00:39:16   to almost anybody. The very, very few people

00:39:20   who--oh sorry, I was corrected in the chatroom. The current version of Chrome is

00:39:24   0.2125.24 dev 64 bit.

00:39:29   Cool.

00:39:32   Not great for marketing, not a very human readable version,

00:39:33   but it doesn't matter.

00:39:37   If you're going to make a major update,

00:39:38   yeah, it makes sense to do a new version.

00:39:41   That carries meaning to people,

00:39:43   and that is how you can base your marketing around.

00:39:45   It's easier for marketing if you cluster together

00:39:50   big releases or big changes into these big

00:39:52   whole number releases.

00:39:54   I think there's also a good argument to be made,

00:39:56   which I believe Casey posted in the show,

00:39:58   somebody's posted in the show notes.

00:39:59   I'm gonna guess John, 'cause I don't think

00:40:00   Casey reads Coding Horror that much.

00:40:02   - No, I don't.

00:40:02   - Yes, I got it right?

00:40:03   All right, so John must have put the infinite version

00:40:06   when Jeff Atwood's post on Coding Horror,

00:40:08   we'll put this in the show notes.

00:40:10   I haven't read this post, but I have a feeling

00:40:12   I can figure out what it's about from the title,

00:40:14   which is does it really matter what version you're ever on,

00:40:17   just keep adding features whenever you can, and--

00:40:20   - That's not quite what it's about.

00:40:21   It's actually a pretty old post,

00:40:22   But I've linked to it like 1,000 times,

00:40:24   because it's one of those trends that I think some people have

00:40:29   seen coming.

00:40:30   I mean, this is like 2011.

00:40:32   I've been in favor.

00:40:33   I've been seen coming for a long time.

00:40:35   But other people are either blind to or are against,

00:40:38   because it's different.

00:40:40   The App Store, in some ways, is kind of holding us back

00:40:43   from this, because in the App Store,

00:40:46   if you want to charge money, like Marco

00:40:48   was just alluding to before, if you decide

00:40:50   to charge money for Tweety, you have to market it differently.

00:40:55   You have to say it's Tweety 2, and I suppose 2 might not

00:40:58   necessarily be a version number.

00:40:59   It could be like a Roman numeral, like a sequel,

00:41:01   like a movie sequel.

00:41:02   But you are forced to do something marketing-wise

00:41:05   to differentiate the new version from the old one

00:41:07   because you want to charge money for it again because there's

00:41:09   no upgrade pricing.

00:41:10   So that is possibly keeping versioning alive.

00:41:14   That and the fact that apps don't auto update--

00:41:17   I think this is true.

00:41:18   in iOS they still don't auto update by default.

00:41:20   I know it prompts you and it wants you to tell them

00:41:22   to auto update but I don't think it does it by default.

00:41:24   Is that correct?

00:41:25   Anyone know?

00:41:25   - No, I thought it was by default.

00:41:27   - Well, if it does, I can never keep track

00:41:30   with it, I think the Mac doesn't do it,

00:41:31   maybe iOS does, but anyway.

00:41:32   - I think that's right.

00:41:33   - What the Coding Horror Post is about is what Chrome did is

00:41:36   you have no choice.

00:41:37   If you run Chrome and you ever quit Chrome and relaunch it

00:41:41   like it will update itself,

00:41:42   it had been quietly downloading an update to itself,

00:41:44   the next time you launch it will install that update.

00:41:47   It doesn't really bother you too much about it.

00:41:49   It used to be a little bit more intrusive

00:41:51   and give you more options to defer it

00:41:53   or maybe say no or whatever,

00:41:54   but Chrome is going to update itself.

00:41:55   And this, I think, is exactly the right strategy

00:41:58   for web browsers today,

00:42:00   because you don't wanna get into an IE situation

00:42:03   where it's just old versions of IE,

00:42:05   you just can't get people off.

00:42:06   You have to be drop support for XP,

00:42:08   people still use it, or re-extend support for XP,

00:42:10   or it's just, it's terrible.

00:42:12   Like, you need browsers to be up to date.

00:42:13   And so Google's approach is,

00:42:15   If you run Chrome, we will shove the current version

00:42:17   down your throat.

00:42:18   Just deal with it.

00:42:19   And that's the infinite version.

00:42:20   It's like, do you have Chrome?

00:42:23   It's not what Chrome do you have.

00:42:24   Yes, I have Chrome.

00:42:25   What is Chrome?

00:42:25   Chrome is whatever Google says it is now.

00:42:27   And it will change over time.

00:42:29   And Google has no problem.

00:42:30   We'll totally change the UI.

00:42:31   We'll move menu commands around.

00:42:33   It drives some people nuts.

00:42:34   It drives me nuts sometimes.

00:42:35   I'm trying to get that stupid bell out of the menu bar

00:42:36   for the millionth time.

00:42:38   But that is the correct approach.

00:42:39   Not to the UI, obviously, but for the rendering engines.

00:42:42   That's the correct approach for the web.

00:42:43   every browser updated itself like Chrome as a web developer because they wouldn't have to deal with IE 8 anymore because everyone would be

00:42:48   Infinitely updated to Chrome 37, which I think is latest stable 38 is like the canary thing

00:42:53   And maybe 37 is beta and 36 is main. I don't know anyway, but the point is I don't want to know

00:42:57   I just want to know you've got Chrome then I then you have the latest Chrome and there are you know

00:43:01   There's different channels to get you know more bleeding edge of Chrome's but in general

00:43:04   That is a much nicer place to be now. Is that the appropriate versioning technique for every single application?

00:43:09   Maybe not today, but I think in the future

00:43:12   That is a much more viable approach from users perspective because usually users hate upgrades

00:43:16   They don't want to do them and it's kind of like kind of like autosave where people like but but what if I wanted to?

00:43:21   Keep the old version. I don't want you shoving the new version down my throat and blah blah blah

00:43:24   It's exactly the same thing people will say about autosave

00:43:26   They'd be like but what if I don't I just want to speculatively make changes

00:43:29   I don't want to automatically save I want to manually hit the save button, but nobody says that about iOS

00:43:33   Nobody says I need a save button and notepad if you sometimes it is speculatively type things into my notes

00:43:38   I would need a button to save it don't autosave

00:43:40   No

00:43:40   It's just something that people out there used to all of us will die

00:43:43   Future people will think it's crazy that we ever had to push a button to manually update our software

00:43:47   And it will just be accepted as the way things are and at that point

00:43:51   Yeah, the version number can just be a random string of letters doesn't matter. It's just it's just the unique

00:43:56   It could be they could be you know use UUIDs for versionals who cares like it's totally pointless

00:44:00   so that's where I think we're going and

00:44:05   hemming and hawing over whether it's 3.0 or 3 is kind of pointless.

00:44:09   I think the only thing that matters about versioning now on the App Store is, like Marco said, for marketing purposes,

00:44:14   and then developers can pick whatever they want. Because, believe me, nobody but us ever looks at that number

00:44:18   that's in light gray text next to Facebook. They don't even read the release notes.

00:44:21   They just, you know, if it's auto-updated by default, they just notice that it's a blue dot next to it,

00:44:25   and they don't know what that means, and they tap on it. It goes away.

00:44:26   Does it even get the blue dot if it's auto-updated? I don't think it does.

00:44:29   Well, maybe not.

00:44:31   But what Brian's point was in this article was not that version numbers should go away,

00:44:36   but that we should care about the version numbers and present them nicely to people

00:44:40   when it's significant.

00:44:41   Yeah, and I think that's not...

00:44:43   I don't think that's that important.

00:44:46   Like I think you don't present a version number to people, you present a product name to people,

00:44:50   and Tweety Two is a product name.

00:44:52   And is that two a version number?

00:44:53   Who knows?

00:44:54   Who cares?

00:44:55   Right, exactly.

00:44:56   more like, is Tweety Two still the product name a month

00:44:59   after it's out, or is it just Tweety then?

00:45:02   - It's Tweety Two 1.0.

00:45:04   (laughing)

00:45:04   It's the first version of Tweety Two.

00:45:06   - I don't know about that.

00:45:07   - You're like, getting tangled up in version numbers

00:45:10   is something that really only we,

00:45:11   like I guarantee if you asked a random person

00:45:14   if they know the version number of any apps on their phone,

00:45:17   or you know, they have no idea.

00:45:18   In fact, the only reason, the only app that Marco

00:45:21   probably knows the version number is his own apps.

00:45:23   - Yeah, pretty much.

00:45:24   - You tell me what version, nobody knows.

00:45:25   And we look at the release note.

00:45:27   I do manual updates.

00:45:28   I turn down the little disclosure thing

00:45:30   to see what they change so I can see their one sentence

00:45:32   thing that says bug fixes or whatever they're going to say.

00:45:34   I actually read that and I don't know the version numbers.

00:45:37   - It's interesting to me that over the last few years

00:45:40   it's gotten to be important to consider URLs.

00:45:45   We were just talking about this with Apple earlier.

00:45:48   And having clean and easy to understand URLs

00:45:55   has gotten pretty important.

00:45:56   And maybe I'm--

00:45:57   Wait, wait, wait.

00:45:58   What do you say, gotten pretty important?

00:45:59   What do you mean by that?

00:46:00   You think this is a recent development?

00:46:02   In the last few years.

00:46:03   Maybe I'm looking at this through a very Microsoft

00:46:05   developer lens.

00:46:06   But in years past, especially in the Microsoft community,

00:46:10   having these god-awful URLs with .aspx on the end of it

00:46:13   all over the place, yeah, it's just the way it was.

00:46:15   No big deal.

00:46:16   Yeah, but yeah, that's always been gross over there.

00:46:18   Believe me, the cleaning realm has been important from day one

00:46:20   on the web.

00:46:21   It's just, I agree with you.

00:46:22   Microsoft has historically not considered

00:46:24   that to be the case, but we've all been laughing at them.

00:46:27   - Well, okay, and I think it's more than just Microsoft.

00:46:30   Do you remember when, what was it,

00:46:33   the exclamation hash that Twitter was doing?

00:46:36   Did I get that right?

00:46:37   - Yeah, yeah, that was because they didn't,

00:46:39   they thought their browsers didn't support

00:46:41   history push state, and so they used this crazy thing.

00:46:43   - Yeah, there was like six months

00:46:45   where every major website started doing

00:46:46   the bang hash thing when they picked up JavaScript

00:46:49   as an everything all-encompassing framework for their site.

00:46:53   It was a very dark time.

00:46:54   That was worse than 52X CD-ROM drives.

00:46:56   - And now web plays just say, you know what, screw you.

00:46:59   You better be using a browser that supports history.

00:47:01   I think even IE8 supports that,

00:47:03   you don't have to do that kind of hack anymore.

00:47:05   That's why everyone's using Chrome

00:47:06   'cause we could have all been updated to that sooner.

00:47:08   The one I always think of is the hilarious city desk URLs

00:47:12   that Joel still has on the--

00:47:13   - Yeah, with all the zeros?

00:47:14   - Zero padding, like that's the type of thing,

00:47:16   I don't wanna pick on Fog Creek and those guys over there,

00:47:20   but like there are windows,

00:47:23   people founded by someone who spent a lot

00:47:26   of his formative years in Microsoft.

00:47:27   I don't know if it's a cause and effect

00:47:29   or just a correlation, but can you imagine anybody

00:47:32   who's sort of in the Apple nerd, Apple enthusiast camp

00:47:36   ever choosing that as a URL structure?

00:47:40   Even if, forget about your personal website

00:47:42   where you're gonna hand tune everything.

00:47:43   If you're making a product for other people to use,

00:47:45   you would still be like,

00:47:47   God, I don't want people to use my product

00:47:48   and have their URLs look like this,

00:47:49   but Joel was like, good, good to go, thumbs up.

00:47:52   I think he got shamed into changing the URLs

00:47:54   in that software so they're not quite as ugly.

00:47:57   - And I can't even imagine that was an easy change to make.

00:48:00   Like whatever reason it was that way,

00:48:01   which I assume the reason it was that way at first

00:48:05   was so that file names would sort in order

00:48:07   because this would be for any OS did natural number sorting

00:48:11   in its file browsers.

00:48:12   - Oh no, didn't they use a database backend?

00:48:15   I assume it's just so they could have a big zero padded

00:48:17   number that he would increment 'cause he's a Windows user.

00:48:19   He just wanted to like it.

00:48:20   He wanted to do like a sprintf present 0.52s or whatever,

00:48:26   a d for the--

00:48:27   Anyway, the point I'm driving at is,

00:48:29   looking at this from a Windows developer's point of view,

00:48:32   REST-style URLs got popular, I don't know,

00:48:36   four or five years ago, maybe a little more than that now.

00:48:38   And all of a sudden, all the Windows developers, Windows web

00:48:40   developers, were like, oh, holy crap.

00:48:42   We should kind of take URLs seriously.

00:48:44   And so over the last few years, again, from my point of view,

00:48:48   over the last few years, it got to be really important to have really clean URLs.

00:48:52   And it's interesting to me that that same care put into URLs and sweating of the details,

00:49:01   those of us who do native applications just didn't really have a similar amount of care

00:49:06   for version numbering.

00:49:07   And I think that Brian's point was just, "Hey, we should care about this."

00:49:12   And this is marketing.

00:49:14   It can be important to some users and you should give a crap.

00:49:17   And I think that was mostly his point.

00:49:19   Most people care about version numbers.

00:49:21   As someone in the chat room pointed out, the Mac has had a longstanding tradition of the

00:49:24   three section version numbers for major, minor, and patch version, or major and minor and

00:49:27   update or whatever, like down to the old vers resources that enforce that and that the Finder

00:49:32   would render by reading that resource and parsing them.

00:49:35   But there's always been, it's always kind of a convention.

00:49:39   Like back in the Apple days, there was version numbers with letters in them.

00:49:43   So you could have D releases, which was before alpha, which had a little A in the name.

00:49:47   and then B would have a B, so 1.0, you know, B3 or 1.0, D5,

00:49:52   and then sometimes you get an RC or an FC thrown in there.

00:49:55   These are all like little idioms and conventions

00:49:58   among developers that most users

00:50:00   don't have any interaction with.

00:50:01   But I still think there was care.

00:50:03   It's not like there was a file name extension.

00:50:05   It wasn't like 1.0.5.aspx.

00:50:08   Like that was never, you know,

00:50:09   that was the worst things of the,

00:50:11   the worst of the URLs in the web

00:50:13   was where you would expose the implementation

00:50:15   of your web application through an extension in the URL

00:50:18   as if that had any meaning to anything

00:50:19   except for your crappy server software, right?

00:50:22   Like, do the people on the other end of it care

00:50:24   that it's like a .asp or .pl or .CGI?

00:50:28   Like they don't care.

00:50:30   They don't care what technology used to implement this.

00:50:32   - That's not entirely true

00:50:34   because a lot of people would see /pages/something.aspx

00:50:39   and they would immediately say,

00:50:40   oh, that's SharePoint, this is going to suck.

00:50:42   - Yeah, there's some of that.

00:50:43   And there was the thing like early proxy servers

00:50:47   would be like, well, I won't cache anything

00:50:49   that has that CGI in the URL and all sorts of stupid crap

00:50:52   like that.

00:50:53   It's the same exact thing as file name extensions

00:50:55   anyplace else.

00:50:56   You are overloading-- you're inlining information

00:50:59   into another location because you feel like there's

00:51:01   no other place to put it.

00:51:02   Only in HTTP, there is totally another place to put it.

00:51:04   And this piece of information doesn't need to put it anywhere

00:51:06   because it doesn't matter to anybody except for the server.

00:51:08   So it's just stupid, and people should not

00:51:10   manage the URL space as if it's invisible.

00:51:14   Now, there's the open question of whether

00:51:16   that should be visible at all,

00:51:17   and we'll talk more about that after Yosemite is released,

00:51:19   I suppose, but we talked about it once when Chrome

00:51:22   tried to do that thing to replace the address bar

00:51:23   with the thing that doesn't show the address anymore.

00:51:27   - Oh, it was the awesome bar or something, right?

00:51:30   Or no, that was Firefox.

00:51:31   - No, it was like a URL, they called it the URL chip.

00:51:34   It was in Chrome Canary for a while.

00:51:36   - That's right.

00:51:36   - Might still be there, I turned it off.

00:51:38   - It was awesome.

00:51:40   So speaking of LickAbility, Marco,

00:51:41   is there anything else you'd like to tell us

00:51:42   about these guys?

00:51:43   - As a matter of fact, yes.

00:51:45   So we had a last minute sponsor dropout

00:51:49   'cause of a miscommunication this week,

00:51:50   and literally about an hour before we recorded the show,

00:51:54   we went to Twitter and said, "Hey, anybody want this spot?"

00:51:56   And our friends at LickAbility jumped at it.

00:51:58   They were the very first ones to respond and say,

00:52:00   "We want it, we will take it."

00:52:02   And the reason they took it

00:52:03   is because they're awesome people.

00:52:05   LickAbility is three guys, Matthew Bischoff, Brian Capps,

00:52:08   who we just mentioned wrote the article, and Andrew Harrison.

00:52:11   I've definitely hung out with Matthew and Brian a lot.

00:52:15   I think Andrew Harrison, I saw his Twitter picture

00:52:17   on the site, he looks familiar, I'm pretty sure

00:52:19   I've met him, possibly at New York Times

00:52:21   when I went to visit the other two, anyway.

00:52:23   Matthew Bischoff used to be at the New York Times,

00:52:26   he's now at Tumblr, Brian Capps I believe still is

00:52:29   at the New York Times, please correct me if I'm wrong,

00:52:32   and Andrew Harrison, I've seen him somewhere,

00:52:36   so probably at the New York Times.

00:52:37   These are really great guys and if you follow what they do online you can see that yourself.

00:52:43   If you see their work you can see it even more.

00:52:45   These are the people who actually wrote the New York Times app and Matthew now works on

00:52:49   the Tumblr app.

00:52:50   These are really high quality, high skilled people.

00:52:53   I even talked about on debug how if I was going to hire another programmer I would try

00:52:59   very hard to hire Matthew Bischoff although I probably couldn't get him.

00:53:02   But this is how good these people are and what they've chosen to do in their free time

00:53:06   is this company called Lickability.

00:53:09   And Lickability has this app called Quotebook.

00:53:12   And Quotebook version three, there's no dot in that,

00:53:15   there's no zero, there's no large number,

00:53:17   there's no meaningless number, Quotebook version three

00:53:20   was released today in the app store.

00:53:22   So just by coincidence, they released a giant new version,

00:53:25   it's been eight months in the making,

00:53:27   it's a complete redesign and rewrite from the ground up.

00:53:30   And just by coincidence, they released that today,

00:53:32   right as we record, and that's why they decided

00:53:33   to buy this spot.

00:53:34   So, QuoteBook 3 is a universal app for iPhone and iPad that lets you collect quotes that

00:53:40   matter to you and share them anywhere.

00:53:43   You can collect lines from movies, lines from books, song lyrics, crazy stuff you hear in

00:53:48   real life from your friends and family, even quips from Twitter.

00:53:52   You can save tweets directly into it.

00:53:55   All these things are perfect things you can use QuoteBook for.

00:53:57   All of your quotes are synced via iCloud between all of your devices.

00:54:02   I trust these guys to do iCloud right,

00:54:04   'cause I know they care a lot and they test it a lot.

00:54:07   I was in the beta too.

00:54:08   You should see the things they sweat about,

00:54:12   like the details they worry about are stunning.

00:54:15   Like they really have, they have the attention to detail

00:54:20   that we wish Apple actually had,

00:54:22   that we sometimes think Apple always has,

00:54:24   but a lot of times Apple doesn't.

00:54:27   They have that attention to detail with their stuff.

00:54:29   So anyway, quotes that are saved in QuoteBook 3

00:54:32   can have an author, a source, a rating, and tags.

00:54:36   So you can do all sorts of great organizational

00:54:38   and search options on these.

00:54:40   So for example, you can say show all quotes about Apple,

00:54:43   show all quotes from John Syracuse.

00:54:46   That's just one tap in the interface to do stuff like that.

00:54:49   The app is localized into four languages.

00:54:51   It's fully accessible via voiceover

00:54:53   and other accessibility options.

00:54:55   All the good stuff you expect

00:54:56   from high quality app developers.

00:54:58   So new in version 3.

00:55:00   Also, you can now add images and descriptions

00:55:03   to authors and sources.

00:55:04   You can probably have a little John Siracusa head

00:55:06   on his name there.

00:55:08   It can even pull information and pictures

00:55:11   for your authors and sources automatically from Wikipedia,

00:55:14   if you'd like.

00:55:15   I think it's pretty cool.

00:55:16   It's like, come on, this kind of feature is,

00:55:19   like, that's just awesome.

00:55:21   This is what happens when you take people

00:55:23   who are extremely talented at what they do

00:55:26   and you give them what is in theory

00:55:29   a relatively simple database app,

00:55:31   and this is how they do it.

00:55:33   It's pretty crazy.

00:55:35   All the polish they put into this,

00:55:36   all the awesome features they put into this,

00:55:39   they have really, as I said,

00:55:40   they've sweated the details like crazy.

00:55:43   More things, you can autocomplete authors,

00:55:45   sources and tags from within the app,

00:55:47   your contacts, and your music library.

00:55:49   So it scans all these data sources on the phone

00:55:52   for autocomplete information,

00:55:53   so that as you're typing, autocomplete.

00:55:55   So it's not doing anything creepy

00:55:56   anything like sending it to anybody.

00:55:57   It's just a local app that syncs with iCloud.

00:55:59   So these are good people doing good stuff here.

00:56:01   Let me see what else.

00:56:03   They can import quotes from your Tumblr posts

00:56:05   and your Facebook profile.

00:56:07   So you can have something to start with.

00:56:08   You can start organizing things you've already posted.

00:56:11   Really great stuff here.

00:56:12   Good onboarding experience.

00:56:13   We can talk about those for a whole episode as well.

00:56:16   You can then share your quotes after you save them

00:56:18   or look them up later.

00:56:19   You can share them too.

00:56:20   Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Day One.

00:56:24   Now, auto detection even works,

00:56:26   so it will detect a quote on your clipboard from iBooks,

00:56:29   and it will even extract and parse

00:56:31   the relevant book and author automatically.

00:56:33   So if you hit something in iBooks,

00:56:35   select something in iBooks, hit quote,

00:56:37   switch over to a quote book,

00:56:38   and it will recognize all that stuff for you.

00:56:41   Anyway, this is really great.

00:56:43   Go to quotebookapp.com.

00:56:45   Once again, that is quotebookapp.com.

00:56:48   Download the app or just search for quote book,

00:56:50   one word in the App Store.

00:56:52   It's five bucks, and I can tell you,

00:56:53   this is worth every penny.

00:56:55   I was gonna say I wish these guys would do even more apps,

00:57:00   but the amount of politics they put into this one,

00:57:03   it's just, oh man, I just want them to keep doing this.

00:57:06   Again, it's a concept, the idea of an app to save quotes in

00:57:11   sounds simple, but there's so many ways

00:57:14   that it could have been done with mediocrity,

00:57:16   and they did such an incredibly awesome job with it,

00:57:20   and they have such great values and such great talent,

00:57:22   and it really shows through.

00:57:23   So anyway, thank you very much to Lookability

00:57:26   for sponsoring our show for Quotebook.

00:57:27   Go to quotebookapp.com or look up Quotebook

00:57:30   in the app store.

00:57:32   - Yeah, we really appreciate them jumping in

00:57:33   at the last minute like that.

00:57:36   All right, we got a question from a listener

00:57:39   regarding the podcast Patent Troll.

00:57:43   And the question was basically,

00:57:45   why the crap aren't you three talking about this?

00:57:48   I can't verbalize my feelings about it

00:57:51   other than I think it's crummy,

00:57:53   But I don't know, John or Marco,

00:57:55   which if ever one of you added this to the show notes,

00:57:57   would you care to explain why you didn't want

00:57:59   to talk about it?

00:58:00   - Yeah, I put it in there and I think,

00:58:01   well first, to recap what it is,

00:58:03   there's some patent troll out there that--

00:58:06   - Personal audio.

00:58:07   - Yeah, that thinks they have a patent

00:58:09   on like podcasting basically.

00:58:10   And said, "You are doing anything

00:58:11   "that looks like a podcast.

00:58:13   "We have the patent on that and you would have never thought

00:58:15   "to do it without our hard work

00:58:16   "and we need to search for you paid

00:58:17   "and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

00:58:18   Right.

00:58:19   And they've gone after lots of different podcasters.

00:58:21   One of the ones they went after was Adam Carolla,

00:58:23   who has a very popular podcast.

00:58:25   Is it the world's most popular podcast?

00:58:27   It's very popular anyway.

00:58:28   And they did a big lawsuit and he raised a bunch of money

00:58:31   along with the EFF, helped me fight off this patent troll.

00:58:34   He raised like half a million dollars.

00:58:35   He was going to lawsuit with them.

00:58:37   They decided to drop the suit for whatever reason.

00:58:40   Like they might've thought that like

00:58:41   they didn't have as much money as he thought.

00:58:44   They dropped it in a way that they can file it again.

00:58:46   For a little while it looked like

00:58:48   was going to try to continue the fight anyway, but basically they both bailed out. They both

00:58:53   reserved the right to go back at it again in the future. EFF is still trying to get

00:58:58   their patent invalidated, which if this is the same world should be easy because their

00:59:02   patent is dumb and there's tons of prior arts. Hopefully that will go well. The question

00:59:07   for the listener is why haven't we talked about this? And I think the reason is that,

00:59:12   Well, on Hypercritical, I talked about patents a ton,

00:59:17   and basically I am not in favor of any patents on anything.

00:59:20   So anything that has to do with patents is kind of like--

00:59:24   I'm not going to argue about this.

00:59:25   It solves the entire, what's your position on this?

00:59:27   I think patents shouldn't exist.

00:59:28   Next question, right?

00:59:29   So that's all I have to say about that.

00:59:31   Marco has a similar anti-patent stance,

00:59:34   maybe not as severe as mine.

00:59:37   No, it's the same.

00:59:37   Yeah.

00:59:38   And so we're not going to get into the nuances

00:59:41   of this type of thing.

00:59:42   Yeah, so we all think this patent troll is terrible. We think patents is terrible at Casey. What do you how do you feel about patents?

00:59:47   Um, I don't think I have nearly as strong an opinion about it. Certainly. I don't think software patents should be a thing

00:59:53   I think that's kind of insane regular patents

00:59:56   I haven't really put enough thought into into it to come to any particular conclusion, but I don't know

01:00:03   That's a very good non answer I suppose

01:00:05   The real reason we haven't talked about it though is because the patent system is so absurd and ridiculous

01:00:11   is that there's nothing to talk about.

01:00:12   Like if they decide to come after us, we're screwed, right?

01:00:15   And that's true of anybody because the patents,

01:00:17   to litigate a patent case costs way more

01:00:19   than half a million dollars.

01:00:20   If Adam Carolla wanted to actually go through

01:00:22   with this case, like if they hadn't dropped it,

01:00:24   he would have needed to raise millions of more dollars,

01:00:26   even when you're in the right.

01:00:27   And usually you don't get your legal fees back

01:00:29   because they all have these things take place

01:00:31   in some East Texas court that's incredibly favorable

01:00:34   to patent trolls.

01:00:35   And it's just, it's a terrible rigged system

01:00:38   that punishes everybody and there's no point in discussing it.

01:00:43   Like, it's like, why don't we discuss

01:00:46   whether we get struck by lightning?

01:00:47   If we get struck by lightning, we're dead.

01:00:49   There's nothing you can do about it, right?

01:00:50   We can't even put little lightning rods on.

01:00:52   So the patent system is terrible.

01:00:54   Hopefully we are small enough

01:00:55   that no one will ever come after us.

01:00:56   If they do, we're screwed.

01:00:57   We all hate patents to the end.

01:01:00   - The interesting thing about this case,

01:01:02   one of the interesting things about this case,

01:01:04   is it really what appears to have happened,

01:01:06   The patent is not from somebody familiar with podcasting.

01:01:10   The patent, if I remember correctly,

01:01:12   from a write-up on ours forever ago,

01:01:14   I believe it was something like some guy

01:01:15   was sending cassette tapes through the mail.

01:01:18   - What? - Yeah.

01:01:19   It's bogus-y within the realm of bogus patents.

01:01:22   Even if you believe totally in patents,

01:01:23   you would look at this and you'd be like,

01:01:25   "What, they want money from everybody who does podcasts now?"

01:01:28   It was updated, I think, to not be tapes in the mail.

01:01:31   Whatever, it doesn't even matter.

01:01:32   That's why it doesn't matter.

01:01:33   I was arguing about the nuances of this.

01:01:35   If you believe patents as a concept shouldn't exist,

01:01:37   who cares about the nuances?

01:01:38   That's why I don't really have any interest in like,

01:01:41   well, is it about tapes or about this?

01:01:43   And more like, it's just bogus.

01:01:46   Even if he had exactly come out

01:01:47   with the entire concept of podcasting,

01:01:50   it's stupid because I've never heard of him

01:01:52   until he started suing people.

01:01:53   So obviously I didn't get the idea for podcasting from him.

01:01:55   Oh, you got it from the person who got it

01:01:56   from the person who got it from him?

01:01:57   Like, I don't care.

01:01:58   They don't think they deserve any money.

01:02:00   That's not how I wish the world worked.

01:02:02   But it is the way our legal system works.

01:02:04   So we just basically shut up and hide, right, more or less.

01:02:07   - Pretty much, I mean, 'cause you're right.

01:02:09   Like, it is pretty much a crapshoot

01:02:11   with patent lawsuit threats from patent trolls,

01:02:14   or even, you know, the term patent troll

01:02:17   is thrown around here, and there's a lot of scapegoating

01:02:20   that, oh, well, patent trolls are the problem.

01:02:22   No, not really, patents are the problem.

01:02:24   And it doesn't really matter who owns them.

01:02:26   Patents themselves are the problem.

01:02:28   And even when used entirely in the way

01:02:31   that people's like storybook version

01:02:33   of what they think patents are for,

01:02:36   protecting some small inventor,

01:02:37   even when used in that exact, quote, intended way

01:02:41   by people who are really making things supposedly

01:02:44   and really need protection.

01:02:46   Even then, they don't work.

01:02:48   Even then, they're a net loss on society.

01:02:51   And that story is so rarely even the case,

01:02:54   and all the other times they're used

01:02:56   are way worse than that.

01:02:57   The problem is not trolls, the problem is patents.

01:03:02   And because of the way our civil legal system

01:03:05   is set up in the US, you know, John was right,

01:03:07   like if you're attacked by somebody

01:03:10   with an actual filed lawsuit,

01:03:13   or the threat of filing a lawsuit,

01:03:15   there's pretty much nothing you can do except, you know,

01:03:20   comply with whatever settlement offer they make you,

01:03:22   and give them money.

01:03:24   It's really quite a racket,

01:03:27   but there's nothing more anybody can really intelligently do

01:03:31   because what are you gonna do?

01:03:32   Fight it and lose hundreds of thousands, if not more?

01:03:37   - Millions, it will cost you millions of dollars

01:03:39   to win a patent suit.

01:03:40   - Yeah, if it actually goes to trial,

01:03:42   then you're really screwed,

01:03:42   but even just to begin to fight,

01:03:46   even just to begin a lawsuit,

01:03:48   you will lose all of your money,

01:03:50   you will lose tons of time,

01:03:52   you will lose all motivation to work and to do anything,

01:03:56   and for what?

01:03:57   It's a terrible system.

01:04:00   is if anything in this country is a tax on innovation more than the lack of government

01:04:06   healthcare, it's the patent system. It is so incredibly destructive to innovation and

01:04:13   is so destructive to small companies and large companies actually, but small companies just

01:04:17   feel it more I think. And so this is a horrible thing, however, this particular case I don't

01:04:24   think I'm that qualified to talk about because I don't know that much about it. And I agree

01:04:29   with John, it's not really any different than any other case. I think it would have been

01:04:32   great if Adam Carolla and his people succeeded in invalidating this patent because I believe

01:04:40   that's what they were going for.

01:04:42   They wanted to fight it in court and just win the suit and invalidate as part of the

01:04:45   court, but I mean, I don't blame them for settling. Some people are like, "Oh, we gave

01:04:48   you half a million dollars and you just settled." They spent all that money getting to the point

01:04:51   now where they can, you know, get out of it. Like the suit was dropped, the company reserves

01:04:57   the right to file suit again, but it seems like the company has decided that there's

01:05:00   just not enough money to be had there or whatever. But the EFF as an organization I believe is

01:05:04   still going forward with the patent office itself and saying, you can like go to the

01:05:08   patent office and say, we think this patent is invalid and go through this crazy Byzantine

01:05:12   process to try to get it invalidated. And I think EFF is still doing that, independent

01:05:15   of Attica Roll entirely. So we can only hope that like this patent troll, patent troll

01:05:22   probably has 50 more patents that they can throw out, but we can only hope that this

01:05:24   patent drill by raising its head above and like picking on somebody with it with a microphone and some publicity

01:05:29   Has caused the FF decide to go after them and you know

01:05:33   Hopefully they get punished for being publicly terrible instead of privately terrible like a lot sis for example

01:05:39   Oh, you mean like Nathan Mirrold intellectual ventures? Yeah, all those guys. Let's Lena. Let's call it right out there. Yeah. Yes

01:05:45   We all hate patents. Yeah, I forget how much I really hate this stuff until we bring it up again

01:05:51   Maybe I should listen to that episode of Hypercritical

01:05:53   or episodes of Hypercritical one more time

01:05:55   to get myself all fired up.

01:05:57   Oh well.

01:05:58   - We have one more sponsor this week

01:05:59   which is way better than patents.

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01:06:19   Now I'm gonna skip the rest of the read for now.

01:06:21   I have a cool Squarespace story this week.

01:06:23   So there's a small organization that my kids involved in

01:06:28   and I volunteered to be on the computer website committee.

01:06:32   They contacted me when I said I wanna be in this committee

01:06:34   and they said, "Oh, good, we're gonna redo

01:06:36   "the website this year.

01:06:37   "We have a budget of $3,000 that we're gonna,

01:06:39   "we need to pick a new web developer to have them redo

01:06:41   "our website for $3,000 and we're also gonna,

01:06:44   "we're gonna go to WordPress and we're gonna buy a theme

01:06:46   "and we're gonna have this designer design us a new theme

01:06:48   and everything, a new template to use for its site.

01:06:50   And I'm like, hold on, give me an hour.

01:06:52   And I literally, in the span of about an hour,

01:06:56   went to Squarespace, took everything off of their old site,

01:06:59   which is one of those 10-page info sites

01:07:01   with a couple of forms here or there.

01:07:03   It's fairly simple, a little gallery, a calendar,

01:07:06   stuff like that.

01:07:07   I took their entire existing site,

01:07:09   imported it into Squarespace, gave it a whole custom theme,

01:07:13   took pictures, put a header image and everything.

01:07:17   I did all of this in an hour.

01:07:18   And I went back to them and I said, "Okay,

01:07:20   "rather than spending that $3,000

01:07:22   "and having some developer involved

01:07:24   "that's gonna be custom work, it's gonna take forever,

01:07:26   "I just did all this for us,

01:07:28   "and we can use that $3,000 for any other purpose

01:07:32   "and just spend 10 bucks a month on this."

01:07:34   And needless to say, I won that bid.

01:07:39   My option won. (laughs)

01:07:41   And this is something that I can set up once,

01:07:45   or they could set it up, I could set it up

01:07:47   and then just hand it over to them.

01:07:49   And they can edit things without messing anything up.

01:07:50   They can change, you know, if they wanna change the colors,

01:07:53   they can change the colors, it's no big deal.

01:07:54   And the best thing is, if they want support,

01:07:56   Squarespace has support, so I don't have to support it.

01:07:58   They can just go to Squarespace,

01:08:00   and they have 24/7 support.

01:08:01   So I think this is, honest, this is all honest to God,

01:08:05   true story, this is what happened.

01:08:07   I'm actually meeting tomorrow to show them the final site,

01:08:10   which took me literally an hour to make,

01:08:12   and saved a good cause, $3,000,

01:08:16   by not having to go do something more complicated than this.

01:08:19   So if you also wanna do that, or for any other reason,

01:08:23   go to squarespace.com and use offer code ATP at checkout.

01:08:27   You can start a trial with no credit card required,

01:08:30   which is what I did.

01:08:30   I started a trial and I showed them the trial account,

01:08:32   URL here, I didn't pay a thing yet.

01:08:34   And then when they say okay,

01:08:35   they're gonna put in their credit card,

01:08:37   and I'm gonna put in our promo code.

01:08:38   And of course, anyway, when you decide to sign up

01:08:43   for Squarespace, you should also put in our promo code,

01:08:45   if you heard it most recently.

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01:08:48   in your favorite podcast, but use our promo code ATP.

01:08:51   It'll get you 10% off anything at Squarespace

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01:08:57   Thank you very much to Squarespace

01:08:59   for supporting our show.

01:08:59   Once again, a better web starts with your website.

01:09:03   - Should always use our promo code

01:09:04   'cause it's three letters long.

01:09:06   It is the ultimate promo code, ATP.

01:09:07   Type it in every single box.

01:09:08   - That's true.

01:09:09   - On checkout.

01:09:10   Who knows, it might work.

01:09:12   So Marco, you recently posted a large headphone review.

01:09:16   Is there anything to add about that

01:09:18   or is that pretty much self-contained?

01:09:20   - That's pretty much self-contained.

01:09:21   I did face a little bit of a problem with this review,

01:09:26   which was--

01:09:27   - Oh, you're gonna talk about how you're being ridiculous

01:09:29   about in-ear monitors?

01:09:31   - No, actually.

01:09:32   The problem I had with this, which is really boring,

01:09:33   I'm not gonna spend too much time on it,

01:09:35   is where do you put it on the site?

01:09:37   Because what I've done in the past,

01:09:41   I've mostly just made blog posts here and there with,

01:09:45   here's what I think of this pair of headphones,

01:09:47   or here's my current recommendations.

01:09:50   This one I just, I decided that I'm gonna make it

01:09:53   its own page that I can update continuously,

01:09:55   'cause blogs always have a problem

01:09:59   with accessing old content.

01:10:01   How do you make old content useful?

01:10:02   How do you deal with old content that's out of date?

01:10:05   Do you go back and edit and put little headers

01:10:07   on all of it saying, this is now out of date,

01:10:08   go here for an updated version?

01:10:09   There's all sorts of challenges there.

01:10:12   I decided rather than doing all that,

01:10:13   I'm just gonna have one continuously updated page.

01:10:15   And that was even more boring than I expected.

01:10:18   So that's pretty much it, that's all I got.

01:10:20   - It's funny you bring it up

01:10:21   because when I looked at Marco.org,

01:10:23   I noticed that your very long headphone post

01:10:26   was very, very short, but it was a link post.

01:10:31   And so I thought to myself, well, weird.

01:10:34   I guess he added some sort of read more functionality

01:10:37   to his, uh, to second crack, because to my knowledge that didn't exist at the time.

01:10:42   And then I clicked the link posts to your own post and realized, oh, you

01:10:47   just had this as a singular file or a singular URL, just sitting off the route.

01:10:52   And, and I did notice that, and it did take me by surprise that that's how you

01:10:56   handled it.

01:10:56   And then once I saw what you had done, it made perfect sense

01:10:58   why you had done it that way.

01:10:59   I don't think it made perfect sense.

01:11:01   I totally, I saw that too.

01:11:02   And I said, oh, that's not the way I would have done that.

01:11:04   What I would have done, like, I understand the reason you did it, but what I would

01:11:07   have done is made the new post like just as a regular long post and then gone

01:11:11   back into all my old headphone posts and put as the very first line this is old

01:11:16   you should go look at the new one here something nice to that you know because

01:11:21   I don't like the idea of updating an old article to say well these you know ten

01:11:27   years ago these were this was the headphone this this is what I thought

01:11:30   all the headphones that are available but and this has a lot of Google juice

01:11:33   because a lot of people have linked to it over the years so if you landed here

01:11:36   from Google, you know, I don't want you to see that.

01:11:39   I want you to see my new review.

01:11:41   I'd rather leave what I wrote as a sort of historical

01:11:44   document at that URL and then just have a constantly updated

01:11:47   redirect, like not a redirect, constantly updated

01:11:49   like header at the top says,

01:11:50   hey, you're about to start reading.

01:11:52   In case you didn't, because people totally don't notice

01:11:54   the date and this drives me insane.

01:11:55   I feel like the new trend should be on people's blogs

01:11:58   instead of all the other design trends that we've had

01:12:00   of making really big text and, you know, centering everything

01:12:03   and all that stuff.

01:12:04   Nutrient should be making the date just bigger and bigger until all you see in the entire screen is

01:12:08   2004 so because people read things that I tried your instructions on how to you know set up

01:12:14   MySQL full-text searching and it didn't work and like

01:12:16   2004 dude like look at people do not see dates

01:12:20   But anyway, they will read the first sentence of the review you hope and the first sentence should be this is old

01:12:25   The most recent one is here and yeah

01:12:27   It's a pain to have to keep going back through those and re-updating the links or whatever

01:12:30   but you can automate that if you really feel like it, but

01:12:33   That's the way I would have done it, but I understand why you did it the way you did. It's just it just seems weird

01:12:39   Sorry

01:12:42   You can do it better next time

01:12:44   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week

01:12:47   Fracture, Quotebook 3 from Lickability and Squarespace and we will see you next week

01:12:53   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:13:02   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:13:11   Cause it was accidental, it was accidental

01:13:17   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:13:21   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:13:26   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:13:33   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C USA, Syracuse

01:13:41   It's accidental (it's accidental) They didn't mean too accidental (accidental)

01:13:48   Tech broadcast so long

01:13:55   So how's the review coming?

01:13:58   I made progress this weekend, but every time I make progress I try to reassess percentage-wise,

01:14:03   "Oh, what percent done do you think you are now?" and I keep coming up with the same number.

01:14:08   It's been like 70% for the past three weekends.

01:14:10   I'm like, "Oh, I feel like I'm about 70% done.

01:14:12   I wrote like 7,000 words this weekend.

01:14:14   Well, I feel like I'm 70% done."

01:14:16   And I just found out that I've been taking my screenshots in the wrong size, or some

01:14:20   of them in the wrong size.

01:14:21   Not that I've taken many of them anyway, but I have so much stuff to do.

01:14:24   I don't know.

01:14:26   Just rooting for a late October release date

01:14:28   and then everything should be fine.

01:14:30   - So what are you gonna do if they release early?

01:14:32   Would you like rage quit the review

01:14:34   even if you were half cooked on it or 70% cooked?

01:14:36   - No, I would rush to get it done even sooner than possible.

01:14:40   I would probably miss the release

01:14:42   and people would just have to wait and it would be terrible

01:14:44   and you know, what can you do?

01:14:46   Like, takes the time that it takes.

01:14:50   - All right.

01:14:51   I don't know about this TiVo thing

01:14:53   and everyone's saying, oh, it's for sports,

01:14:55   it's for, well, not everyone.

01:14:56   People saying it's for sports,

01:14:57   that doesn't make sense to me.

01:14:59   - I figure if you're that into sports,

01:15:00   you probably have cable, right?

01:15:02   - Right.

01:15:03   - They're trying to, like, it's cord cutters

01:15:05   who still want sports, I don't know.

01:15:07   Like I said, $50, that's the whole point of this thing is,

01:15:09   it's $50, if they'd made it free,

01:15:11   it would be even more, yeah, an interesting product,

01:15:14   but just, if you're on a TiVo, get a real TiVo.

01:15:18   - Do you wanna talk about this Twitch thing,

01:15:19   or is that gonna go on for two hours?

01:15:20   - It won't go on for long, we can talk about it,

01:15:22   'cause I don't think I have much to say about it.

01:15:25   Do you guys both know what Twitch is?

01:15:27   - Have any of the three of us actually like seen Twitch?

01:15:30   - I have, yes.

01:15:31   - I watched like 10 seconds of it once

01:15:34   when, what was it?

01:15:36   Something about playing Pokemon,

01:15:37   like some chat room or something was playing Pokemon.

01:15:39   - So like old people, haven't you guys seen the YouTube?

01:15:42   (laughing)

01:15:42   Have you seen the YouTube?

01:15:43   I've seen the YouTube.

01:15:44   Like as if YouTube is one thing.

01:15:46   As if Twitch is like, oh yeah, I've seen Twitch.

01:15:48   Have you seen Twitch?

01:15:49   Yes, I've gone to the website.

01:15:50   - Have you seen Google?

01:15:51   - Yeah, well, at least the Google is kind of one thing.

01:15:54   Twitch is, you know.

01:15:55   - You're right to call me out.

01:15:56   So I've seen a video game being played live on Twitch.

01:15:59   I believe it was one of the Pokemon.

01:16:01   Is it Pokemon or Pokemons?

01:16:03   I guess Pokemon games.

01:16:04   - It's Pokemen.

01:16:05   (laughing)

01:16:07   - Anyway, point being,

01:16:10   it was something that went around like a couple months back

01:16:13   where it was like an entire chat room

01:16:16   was trying to collaborate and play one of the Pokemens.

01:16:20   - Don't actually say that Casey, please.

01:16:22   - I was kidding, I was kidding.

01:16:24   So it was the chat room or something.

01:16:26   Was it a chat room?

01:16:27   Shoot, I don't know what it was, but anyway.

01:16:29   - They had fish playing it, they have chat rooms playing it.

01:16:31   Many different things have played

01:16:33   these various Pokemon games.

01:16:34   - Yeah, and so I watched like 10 seconds of that

01:16:37   and was impossibly bored after those 10 seconds

01:16:41   and never looked back.

01:16:42   - So I think we had in our show, it was way back when,

01:16:45   and since I just recently caught up on Isometric,

01:16:46   I heard them talking about it.

01:16:47   There was some rumor a while ago

01:16:49   that Google was gonna buy Twitch.

01:16:50   remember that maybe we had it in our show notes briefly but we never talked

01:16:54   about it because Google never did buy twitch it was like oh it's a done deal

01:16:56   who was gonna buy twitch was months ago right and they didn't and then you know

01:17:02   people thought they might because it made sense and now I don't even know is

01:17:06   the Amazon actually a done deal I think I mean I don't know I always wait I want

01:17:11   to see a press release on the company's websites that's what I want to see

01:17:14   that's when it's confirmed but this is like you know sources say that whatever

01:17:17   Anyway, the story about this is Amazon buying Twitch.

01:17:21   I think the big story is, from my perspective,

01:17:25   why hasn't someone bought Twitch already?

01:17:27   Because Twitch does tremendous traffic

01:17:30   in an area that is underserved essentially.

01:17:33   For people that don't know, Twitch allows you,

01:17:36   it's a website where people put videos

01:17:38   of them playing video games,

01:17:39   and you can stream to it live,

01:17:41   and you can, a lot of the consoles

01:17:43   have a button you can press

01:17:44   that will stream what you're playing up to Twitch.

01:17:46   you can do pre-recorded stuff.

01:17:48   And it's like, why would you not want to buy this?

01:17:53   Because millions of people watch.

01:17:54   I think that like some esports championship thing

01:17:59   had like 41 million viewers or 70 million viewers

01:18:02   or something like that.

01:18:03   Huge viewership on this.

01:18:06   The question is like, well,

01:18:08   why isn't this all just happening on YouTube?

01:18:09   Well, YouTube is a different kind of environment.

01:18:11   YouTube is for people making like their own little shows

01:18:14   channels and stuff, but YouTube is really harsh on cracking down on copyrighted material.

01:18:20   And Twitch is specifically tailored to gamers, it has integration with the consoles and everything

01:18:25   like that.

01:18:26   Now in recent weeks or months or however long it's been, Twitch has been starting to clamp

01:18:30   down on the copyrighted stuff as well.

01:18:32   If it does that content detection, if it detects copyrighted music, it will just mute the audio

01:18:37   track, and what's happening is people are getting their entire videos muted because

01:18:41   there's copyrighted music like in the game the game people paid for and like just all these problems of having machines try to enforce

01:18:47   Copyright, so I don't understand why that's going on. I have but like the biggest thing

01:18:51   I don't understand is why why didn't Google buy twitch? Why didn't you know?

01:18:55   Like they are a hot commodity

01:18:58   They are a place where lots of people are going to look at things that isn't well served by any existing properties

01:19:05   But is in that same vein like this is not like YouTube you say oh, it's kind of like TV

01:19:09   But instead of TV shows you watch YouTube and people who have kids of a certain age know that kids do watch YouTube just the way

01:19:14   They watch TV

01:19:15   Well twitch is like that for people who were into games only that never really was a TV analog because there was never any real

01:19:19   TV channel you could go to where you just watched you know hundreds of channels of people playing video games live or recorded and that's

01:19:25   What twitch is?

01:19:27   so

01:19:28   I'm not quite sure that Amazon buying them is good for anybody including Amazon

01:19:33   I think Google was a better fit because I feel like

01:19:35   What's happening in twitch should be happening on YouTube and if YouTube is not doing something to make that happen

01:19:40   And they need it to be in a separate branded site then fine

01:19:42   Google should have bought twitch and made it like as an offshoot of YouTube or tried to roll it into one or whatever

01:19:47   but I think what twitch does is only going to

01:19:51   Go away or fade if it gets screwed up by like stupid copyright stuff or whatever. I just think it's inevitable

01:19:57   It's obviously something that people want to do all over the world. It's gonna happen with or without twitch

01:20:03   If you people should be interested in those people those people buy games are worth advertising to their in a there in a you know

01:20:10   a demographic that people want to advertise to

01:20:12   Why did Amazon buy them Google reportedly bid for them and didn't get them and then Amazon did did Google?

01:20:20   Say too rich for my blood and just bail out of Amazon outbid them

01:20:24   These days I don't feel particularly good about Amazon buying things anymore

01:20:28   I used to feel good about Google buying things and then not so much you know now Amazon

01:20:33   I used to feel okay about them buying companies and now maybe not so much with like the comixology and stuff

01:20:38   So I don't know. I mean, I guess maybe this is better than Facebook buying them

01:20:42   I just think it's a shame for everybody who's into twitch

01:20:44   It's kind of a shame for twitch although presumably the people involved get a big payday

01:20:48   Twitch is not something that I watch regularly twitch is not something you guys watch it also

01:20:54   It's it's very younger demographic, but that's why I think like it's the future man doing what twitch does

01:21:01   Has a future and I just hope Amazon doesn't screw it up. I

01:21:05   Have nothing to add. This is one of those things that you should be old Casey

01:21:09   This is one of those things that is really popular that you and it's not like soccer where you understand that

01:21:14   It's really popular and always has been it's just not your thing

01:21:16   But this is like a worldwide really popular and you just have no interaction with it all I could be Facebook

01:21:21   Like we don't may not use Facebook, but we know Facebook exists. We know what it's like or whatever

01:21:25   So if you don't want to get out of touch with the kids, you should spend some time on Twitch

01:21:29   I've genuinely been dreading the thought of Minecraft still being a thing and

01:21:33   It's gonna be like

01:21:37   It's one of those games. It just gets ported everywhere. You know

01:21:39   Because it was like it had dated graphics the day it was made right so it's not as if it's gonna

01:21:44   Oh, we'll get old and people won't like it. Nope. It'll it will never die

01:21:47   They'll probably open source it at some point, and then you're really screwed so is a world of Warcraft or Minecraft dying first

01:21:54   World of Warcraft definitely that requires humans to maintain and run and presumably

01:21:59   eventually that will become

01:22:01   You know unfeasible like whatever Blizzard's next big project is will eventually I assume supply

01:22:06   Oh, they keep they keep revving it and releasing it. I guess they have enough people

01:22:09   Addicted to it, but that requires way more maintenance minecraft. You can just let it into the wild like a virus

01:22:15   You don't need any human intervention first

01:22:17   Blizzard needs to pay people you know millions of dollars a year just to keep a world of warcraft

01:22:22   Keep them in new content every year and keep the servers up and running and maintained

01:22:26   enough in wildly unrelated news I

01:22:30   Was somewhat stunned that it only took the internet a week to find Marco coffee. Yeah, I didn't even know

01:22:38   I thought Marco had registered that site ages ago. I didn't know

01:22:42   It says I don't try it. I'm trying to say nice things about your websites Marco, but I think I'm not Marco Casey

01:22:50   I think everyone has already yelled at you.

01:22:51   - Oh yeah, oh yeah.

01:22:52   - For the formatting of that site.

01:22:53   - Oh God, it's terrible, but I threw it together

01:22:55   in like 20 minutes, so I didn't care.

01:22:57   - It probably is not worth a whole lot of effort.

01:22:58   - Exactly, oh I knew it was horrible.

01:23:00   - It's worth just enough effort to make the one page

01:23:04   that is on that site look reasonable, that's all I'm saying.

01:23:06   - I really don't even care.

01:23:08   The point was to give a few people like 10 seconds

01:23:11   worth of laughs or giggles or what have you,

01:23:14   and I think I succeeded in that.

01:23:16   It's funny, people are complaining and moaning

01:23:18   about the fact that it's frames

01:23:20   because I was too lazy to figure out

01:23:21   how to get GitHub pages to accept--

01:23:22   - It's frames?

01:23:24   - Yeah, it is.

01:23:24   Well, it's framed because it's a hover redirect

01:23:28   and so I had it cloak the URL.

01:23:30   - Oh, yeah, yeah. - So it's just a big

01:23:32   iframe, I guess.

01:23:33   And getting the layout the way I wanted

01:23:36   was a pain in the butt without using tables,

01:23:38   which I don't think I ended up doing.

01:23:40   So yeah, because I suck at CSS,

01:23:43   I'm freaking terrible at CSS.

01:23:45   - This is one of those differences.

01:23:46   You would have been the person

01:23:47   to make those city desk URLs,

01:23:49   'cause you'd be like, "Eh, just good enough,

01:23:51   I don't care that much, this is a URL."

01:23:53   (laughing)

01:23:53   It's just like there's something,

01:23:55   and I'm not saying there's something wrong with you,

01:23:57   you are in the majority, believe me,

01:23:59   but like there, I know if I was putting up

01:24:01   a single page site that just had text in it,

01:24:03   I would be there making sure that text

01:24:04   was like exactly where I wanted it to be

01:24:06   and the font that I wanted it to be.

01:24:07   - Well, that's because you're extraordinarily critical.

01:24:10   - Well, I mean, the joke still works

01:24:11   if it's Marco.coffee/pages/troll.aspx, right?

01:24:16   (laughing)

01:24:18   And the funny thing is, I think it was TJ Luoma,

01:24:20   I'm probably getting that pronunciation wrong

01:24:22   and I'm sorry about that,

01:24:22   but I believe he was the first person to point out to me,

01:24:25   in retrospect, I should have just had a redirect to Starbucks

01:24:29   and I really had a missed opportunity there.

01:24:31   - Well, that's what I did with bad.coffee.

01:24:34   So I own bad.coffee, redirects to Starbucks's Wikipedia page

01:24:38   and then I also have overcast.coffee and podcast.coffee.

01:24:42   - How did you not register Marco.coffee?

01:24:45   - Yeah, that for some reason didn't cross my mind

01:24:47   when I was entering all these in.

01:24:48   (laughs)

01:24:50   - Oh man, that's funny.

01:24:52   Anyway, I noticed this the other day.

01:24:55   This was a week to the day.

01:24:56   It was last Wednesday,

01:24:59   and I noticed that Marco.coffee was available,

01:25:01   and I thought, what could I do with this?

01:25:05   And actually, my first thought was,

01:25:07   hey, did you know that Marco.coffee,

01:25:09   to say to you, hey, Marco.coffee is available?

01:25:11   And then I was like, wait a second,

01:25:13   there's an opportunity here.

01:25:14   And so yeah, so I figured trolling you for a year

01:25:18   is worth $25 of my money.

01:25:20   So I will go ahead and register this

01:25:22   and throw up the world's crappiest single serving site.

01:25:26   - And you did.

01:25:27   - And I did.

01:25:28   (laughing)

01:25:29   So.

01:25:29   - That's good.

01:25:30   It's funny, I'm proud of you for even doing this joke.

01:25:34   - Yeah, originally it was coffee is stupid

01:25:37   and then I felt like that didn't have the same ring to it

01:25:39   as coffee is silly, so.

01:25:41   - You're so polite even in your trolling.

01:25:42   [LAUGHTER]

01:25:43   Something like that.

01:25:45   I had a domain registered for the Flop House

01:25:47   for a couple of years, but I just

01:25:49   let it expire in protest because no one would accurately

01:25:52   represent the joke I was making on that website.

01:25:55   Of course.

01:25:56   [LAUGHTER]

01:25:57   Of course.

01:25:59   It was frustrating.

01:26:00   But anyway, you're talking about paying $25 for a year.

01:26:03   I think I paid for three years, maybe it was even four years,

01:26:06   of that domain.

01:26:07   And it was nothing but a redirect.

01:26:09   It was the whole point of the domain is like, oh,

01:26:11   type this you'll get those redirects aren't as much fun back in the days when if you were

01:26:16   in the circle of Mac users all the popular Mac browsers would first append I forget which

01:26:21   order the first appended.com and then www.com or the reverse but if you typed any word that's

01:26:27   what they did before the the age of the various awesome bars and integrated you know search

01:26:31   address bar if you just typed a word by itself into your address bar it would try the dot

01:26:35   and/or the triple w.com.

01:26:38   And that was a cool way to navigate,

01:26:40   but that time has passed, so.

01:26:43   Half the time people just type stuff

01:26:45   and they end up with a Google search anyway,

01:26:46   so you are getting a domain.

01:26:49   It's not as much fun as it used to be.

01:26:51   - Do you wanna do titles real fast

01:26:54   before Snell steals you from us?

01:26:55   - Three people are never wrong.

01:26:58   - Oh, that was about the chat room.

01:27:00   You failed me last time, chat room.

01:27:02   When in Star Wars was that?

01:27:04   I want to really, really get everyone to hate me.

01:27:06   - There's no mention of the chat room in Star Wars.

01:27:08   Don't look for it.

01:27:09   - What?

01:27:10   - I said, there's no mention of the chat room in Star Wars.

01:27:14   Don't look for-- - Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

01:27:15   - A mention of the chat room in Star Wars.

01:27:17   - I know, you failed me for the last time.

01:27:19   - Admiral.

01:27:20   - Oh, yeah, that does ring a vague bell.

01:27:23   I haven't seen Star Wars movies in years.

01:27:26   - It's not the same line.

01:27:27   That was a line in a similar scene.

01:27:28   Don't you remember in "Empire Strikes Back"?

01:27:30   - I couldn't even tell you the plot of "Empire Strikes Back".

01:27:32   Darth Vader is mad at people.

01:27:34   Darth Vader is mad at people because they're

01:27:36   doing things wrong, and he kills them.

01:27:38   And why does he kill them?

01:27:39   Because he failed him for the last time.

01:27:41   Because he'll be dead now, you see,

01:27:43   so he can't fail him anymore.

01:27:44   It's very complicated.