72: Take Your Co-Host To Work Day


00:00:00   I'll stall by saying the showbot is back.

00:00:03   - For how long?

00:00:04   - Yeah, probably not much longer.

00:00:06   There have been a few poll requests

00:00:08   from a couple different people who, as usual,

00:00:11   I don't have their names in front of me because I'm a jerk,

00:00:13   but we can all laugh together

00:00:16   when this goes down momentarily.

00:00:18   - Well, we're laughing with you, not at you.

00:00:21   - I think it's both, but I don't blame you.

00:00:23   - Laughing at your showbot with you.

00:00:25   (laughing)

00:00:27   - There's no known vulnerabilities left, right?

00:00:29   Uh, known and no, but I'm sure that they exist nevertheless.

00:00:33   So you read Zaro Boogs, you know Zaro Boogs?

00:00:36   Nope.

00:00:37   That's alright.

00:00:38   We can count that as the pop culture reference for the show if you'd like.

00:00:40   Because it's kind of pop culture, kind of programery.

00:00:42   I'll put it in the show notes and then you guys will know what it means.

00:00:45   Probably still won't.

00:00:48   Follow up.

00:00:49   Uh, last week, I think it was last week, we talked about Google's material UI that they

00:00:54   demoed at the Google I/O keynote.

00:00:57   And I mentioned that one of the things they showed in the keynote that I thought was neat

00:01:00   was that they want this UI to be the same on the web and on their phones.

00:01:06   And so they had a web version of it.

00:01:08   And this is a website.

00:01:10   I don't even know if it's an official Google website, but it's a website.

00:01:12   And you can go to it and view the web version of a lot of the controls that Google showed

00:01:18   in their presentation.

00:01:19   Did you guys check this site out, preferably in Chrome, I suppose?

00:01:22   I have it in Chrome right now, but I have not looked previously.

00:01:26   I'll click around in it and see what you think.

00:01:28   I mean, it looks like the stuff you saw up on the screen immediately on-- this was another

00:01:33   thing spawned from Twitter today because Don Lodzki sent me this on Twitter and then I

00:01:37   retweeted it and a bunch of other people responded and of course all the people who follow me

00:01:41   true to form jumped on the fact that you can't click on the labels to activate the checkboxes,

00:01:46   which is quite egregious, but in the web world it could just be that they didn't do the label,

00:01:51   you know, four equals ID of the checkbox thing.

00:01:54   Or these could be entirely custom controls, I haven't even looked at the source to see

00:01:57   if there's actually any HTML.

00:02:00   So anyway, I don't blame them for that.

00:02:01   Mostly what I'm looking at is, does this UI feel, for lack of a better word, snappy?

00:02:07   And I think it does, I think the animations are smooth.

00:02:10   Yeah, but they take too long.

00:02:12   Well yeah, but that's not a performance issue, that's like a decision, that's kind of like

00:02:16   in iOS 7 where I have the transition things turned off, even though they don't take any

00:02:19   shorter.

00:02:20   I have that for the zooming effect or whatever.

00:02:22   But anyway, that's like, they're deciding how long these things go.

00:02:25   It's not like they're taking too long because they're slow.

00:02:26   Well, and remember iOS 7.0, things did take too long.

00:02:30   In 7.1 they fixed it, well they improved it.

00:02:33   They tightened everything up and they said, "We made everything faster."

00:02:35   Which they did by, you know, tweaking two values.

00:02:37   But you know, Apple didn't really get those perfect either on step one.

00:02:41   There's still a few areas where there's like unnecessarily long animations in OS X and

00:02:46   in iOS.

00:02:47   Well, there's like, you know, like I mentioned with turning off the reduce motion or whatever

00:02:51   where it doesn't reportedly does not change the duration at all but it feels

00:02:54   faster because it's a crossfade instead of a zoom or whatever there's lots of

00:02:59   things you can do perception wise to handle that but this interface also

00:03:02   shows off the big honking like ripple effect thing so you can tell where you

00:03:08   clicked or the buttons having a ripple go across them I'm still not a fan

00:03:12   having clicked around in it but I am reasonably impressed with the

00:03:17   performance I wouldn't complain if I was clicking around on this like it doesn't

00:03:20   look like a native control, doesn't feel like a native control, but it doesn't feel

00:03:24   slow or clunky either. So it reduces all my complaints, not to technological ones,

00:03:28   but to design complaints, which I think is a reasonable achievement. Like if what

00:03:32   they're looking for is this should be exactly the same on the web and native. I

00:03:36   haven't tried the native one, but I can't imagine it being any more or less

00:03:40   responsive than this, so then you're just switch over to complaining about the

00:03:44   actual design decisions. But it looks to me like they've achieved reasonable

00:03:48   parity of performance between the platforms.

00:03:50   - You know, I don't like if you look at the buttons

00:03:54   and I'm looking at the raised button,

00:03:55   the colored raised button where the kind of ripple effect

00:03:58   is most obvious or at least as far as I can tell.

00:04:01   I don't like that it doesn't look like

00:04:02   you're depressing the button.

00:04:04   Like if you're gonna have a raised button,

00:04:06   it should get pressed when you tap it or click it.

00:04:10   - Right, if anything, because the shadow gets larger

00:04:12   as you tap it, so it looks like the button

00:04:15   being raised up off of the page for a moment, but it's not moving, so it just kind of looks

00:04:22   spatially wrong.

00:04:23   Yeah, the z-index thing is weird. Like, if I understand what Casey's saying about the

00:04:26   depress thing, but wouldn't that be like, wouldn't that change the z-value and then

00:04:31   like momentarily it would be putting—I don't know, I'm trying to figure out their friggin'

00:04:35   metaphor—but yeah, it is—this is what they've chosen to do. Like, you're not pressing the

00:04:39   button down, you're merely activating the button, and so a shimmer goes across the button,

00:04:44   the button does not move. It's kind of like those touch sensitive buttons, you guys probably

00:04:49   don't remember this but way back when on televisions my grandfather had one of these, they had

00:04:52   buttons on them that did not move in and out when you pressed them. They were like touch

00:04:56   sensitive buttons, it was like a metal ring with a metal contact in the middle and you

00:04:59   just touched them with your finger and it would activate to change the channel, but

00:05:02   they would not actually push down and these were both on the television and on the remote

00:05:05   and it was amazing technology in whatever year it was, 1986, but did not catch on for

00:05:11   for obvious reasons because people want buttons that press down, like the home button on your

00:05:15   iOS device.

00:05:16   Yeah, I think we're just, like this is the kind of thing, it's hard to tell in a demo

00:05:20   here, you know, in this artificially created demo on a webpage, which is not the intended

00:05:25   use of this. I mean, I know it's a way you can use these things, but it's, obviously

00:05:29   this is made for touch devices first. And, you know, this is the kind of thing where

00:05:33   we're, you know, we're just not going to be able to really know how good it is because

00:05:38   is none of us use Android full time.

00:05:39   But we got a few people complaining about the way

00:05:42   that we talked about Google last week.

00:05:44   And I think it's worth pointing out

00:05:47   and kind of telling ourselves as well,

00:05:49   like the world of tech is really big.

00:05:51   And no individual person or even small groups like this,

00:05:56   it's hard to get like good, adequate coverage

00:06:01   of everything in detail.

00:06:02   We like to talk about things in great detail.

00:06:04   We are all extremely focused, well for the most part,

00:06:07   but we are extreme nerds at least.

00:06:09   And so we will go into depth on crazy topics

00:06:14   to crazy levels of detail.

00:06:16   And that has to necessarily be at the exclusion of others.

00:06:20   It's like nobody can be an expert in all programming

00:06:23   because programming is massive.

00:06:25   Maybe in the '70s you might have been able

00:06:27   to become an expert in almost everything that was out there.

00:06:30   Now that industry is simply too large.

00:06:34   You can't be an expert in all programming

00:06:36   because there's more out there than you have time

00:06:40   to even look at or learn.

00:06:42   You know, you have to at some point reject certain things

00:06:46   implicitly just because you're choosing

00:06:48   to focus your attention on something in particular.

00:06:51   I don't think we should feel like we're barred

00:06:53   from talking about things that we aren't experts in.

00:06:56   Anything that sounded like we were doing that last week

00:06:58   was our mistake.

00:06:59   You know, I don't, I think I was doing

00:07:04   a pretty reasonable job of disclaimers and being humble

00:07:09   and giving the benefit of the doubt,

00:07:10   but that's been a very unpopular opinion of me recently.

00:07:13   Apparently I'm not doing that very well

00:07:16   in almost everything I do.

00:07:18   So I don't know if it's my problem

00:07:21   or everyone else's problem.

00:07:22   It's probably some of both, honestly.

00:07:24   But we can't be expected to be experts on everything

00:07:29   and we don't need to give everything equal time.

00:07:33   And I think that's very important for all of us,

00:07:35   both us and the audience, to understand

00:07:38   and to be on the same page

00:07:39   and to be in the same parking lot about.

00:07:41   We, am I using that right?

00:07:44   - No, that's okay. - We need to drive

00:07:45   into the parking garage, level two.

00:07:47   - Oh my god. - And maybe,

00:07:50   and get one of those little tickets

00:07:51   that you pay on the way out.

00:07:53   - We need to have take your co-hosts to work day

00:07:56   with you and me. (laughing)

00:07:59   Just see how long you'll last.

00:08:02   How long until your co-host gets fired from the job you didn't even have?"

00:08:07   I think it's simpler than Marco.

00:08:09   I think you're looking too deeply within yourself to figure this one out.

00:08:13   It probably comes down to talking negatively about something that it's clear that you

00:08:18   don't know a lot about.

00:08:20   And that's the easy attack for people who are sort of on that team, is that "I don't

00:08:24   like you saying bad things about the thing that I like.

00:08:26   And by the way, you also don't know as much as I do about the thing that I like.

00:08:30   Therefore, you're stupid for saying

00:08:32   that you don't like the thing that I like.

00:08:34   Which may be true.

00:08:35   Maybe if you knew it better, you would like it better.

00:08:37   But just as easily, it could be that you

00:08:39   know enough about it to know that you don't like it.

00:08:41   And that's just an easy avenue of an attack.

00:08:43   So when you dismiss Android, or I call Android phones crappy

00:08:48   or whatever, if you're on the Android team

00:08:50   and you care whether other people like Android, which

00:08:53   is some other thing in and of itself,

00:08:54   then you're going to say, well, if you just knew it better.

00:08:57   That's the nice way to say it.

00:08:58   And the unkind way to say it is, you guys

00:08:59   nothing about Android, you should not talk about Android because if you, you know, you

00:09:03   say bad things about it, but it's clear that you guys don't even have Android phones, so

00:09:08   stop talking about it. But that stuff doesn't bother me because the people who are on teams,

00:09:12   like the partisans, the people who care, whether other people like Android stuff or Apple stuff

00:09:17   or anything like that, there's a million of those, you're not going to change those people.

00:09:21   What you do want to be is fair to the stuff, like, and not because anyone's on any particular

00:09:26   but you don't want to misrepresent anything.

00:09:27   And I think the criticism that we got that I think was not fair,

00:09:32   but it was coming from a good place, was that we didn't, for instance,

00:09:36   mention that Android has more market share than Apple.

00:09:39   And we didn't mention that because we assume everybody already knows that,

00:09:43   not because we don't know it and not because we're trying to deny it.

00:09:46   But I can understand if you're coming at it, not having that background and sort of,

00:09:49   you know, if you don't share those assumptions with us,

00:09:51   then you could say they're misrepresenting Android,

00:09:54   and making it seem like it is the inferior, lower selling phone platform.

00:09:59   In reality--

00:10:00   - Which we never said.

00:10:01   - I know, exactly, but it's like we all know what we know,

00:10:03   and a lot of our regular listeners know what we know.

00:10:05   But if you're a new listener, you may be thinking,

00:10:07   these guys are making it seem like Android is the loser,

00:10:09   when really Android has the biggest market share.

00:10:11   I try not to get too bogged down on those things.

00:10:13   Anyway, most people were just yelling at Marcos,

00:10:15   like, I just go onto the next email at that point.

00:10:17   - Well, I think it's a topic worth addressing,

00:10:19   because it's going to keep coming up here and there,

00:10:21   up here and there where, you know, somebody gets upset that we didn't cover X, Y, or Z,

00:10:25   or that we didn't consider their team when discussing topic X because we covered somebody

00:10:31   else's team and they perceived that as a slight to them. And it's worth a disclaimer that when

00:10:37   we talk about Android, none of us use it. But I don't think that removes our ability to talk

00:10:43   about it intelligently. I think it's something we have to consider when we're talking about it

00:10:47   intelligently, but I think we usually have.

00:10:49   We shouldn't be afraid to talk about it

00:10:51   or, you know, banned by our audience from talking about it

00:10:55   as long as we keep that in mind.

00:10:56   As long as we keep in mind, you know, none of us use it,

00:10:58   so we can't really say in great detail about these things,

00:11:01   but it is a major force in our market,

00:11:03   and it would be, it would almost be stupid

00:11:07   and negligent of us not to ever talk about it.

00:11:10   - So this discussion has given me time

00:11:11   to right-click on that little demo page,

00:11:13   and I do not see an input HTML element

00:11:15   anywhere inside on that checkbox.

00:11:17   It's all div, Canvas style, which is fine.

00:11:20   Like I was just wondering if they had tried

00:11:23   to use the actual HTML elements and then enhance them.

00:11:26   Maybe they have, because I didn't expect element.

00:11:27   I don't know what was in the source code

00:11:28   before the JavaScript got ahold of the DOM,

00:11:30   but when the JavaScript was done with it,

00:11:32   all I'm left with is a div soup and some Canvas elements

00:11:35   and some inline styles.

00:11:36   So that's some crazy stuff.

00:11:38   - I like the slider.

00:11:39   I like the 3D when you grab the little,

00:11:41   what do you call that?

00:11:42   Not a nubbin, but the thing or handle, whatever.

00:11:45   - Thumb.

00:11:46   - Thumb, that's what I was looking for, thank you.

00:11:47   Anyway, when you grab the thumb,

00:11:49   I think it's a little too much zoom.

00:11:51   I think it comes at you a little bit too much,

00:11:53   but I like-- - Whoa.

00:11:54   It's not coming at you, it's getting bigger.

00:11:55   If it came at you, the shadow would increase.

00:11:56   Go to the Z-index thing at the bottom, like shadow thing,

00:12:00   it shows distance, you know, the Z-index.

00:12:01   So the thumb is actually getting bigger.

00:12:04   - Okay, well, either way.

00:12:05   And I also like that it becomes colorless at the left edge,

00:12:09   although I do think if you're gonna do that game,

00:12:11   it should be more of a gradient

00:12:13   as you come across the slider.

00:12:16   But no, there are definitely some good ideas here.

00:12:18   It feels a little unnatural

00:12:20   because it looks different than a lot of things.

00:12:22   I think mostly like this layout

00:12:23   where you've got that page card thing

00:12:27   that kind of goes over the header

00:12:28   that feels weird and different and uncomfortable,

00:12:31   but I think it's just because it's different,

00:12:33   not because it's bad.

00:12:34   - Well, it's in a webpage.

00:12:35   Like imagine it on a phone.

00:12:36   Imagine that you were using this on a phone

00:12:38   and one app was a web app

00:12:40   because the whole thing with Google's,

00:12:42   with their new OS is they're trying to, you know,

00:12:44   tabs are mixed in with apps in your task switcher

00:12:46   and everything in a way that's supposed to blur the line

00:12:48   between what is a mobile website and what is an app.

00:12:51   And so if you were using a Google app that used this UI

00:12:54   that happened to be a web app

00:12:55   and using a Google app that happened to be native,

00:12:57   they want them to look and feel the same.

00:12:59   And I mean, if the whole rest of the OS looks like this,

00:13:02   you'll get used to it.

00:13:03   And then if you happen to use a little mobile web app

00:13:05   like this, it won't be as shocking as it is

00:13:07   for us to load this up, you know, on our Macs

00:13:09   in a little demo thing inside a Chrome window.

00:13:13   Well, or it'll be like an uncanny valley problem,

00:13:15   where it'll get-- it's like when all those sites-- I mean,

00:13:17   obviously we're way more advanced on this these days.

00:13:20   But when all those blog templates and everything

00:13:22   started making-- when the iPhone first came,

00:13:24   I started making mobile layouts that looked like an iPhone

00:13:27   navigation controller.

00:13:28   And so it would have the big gradient bar, which of course

00:13:31   aged really well.

00:13:34   But they did not perform like it.

00:13:36   They had to do the simulated JavaScript scrolling way back

00:13:39   because they couldn't even do the real, you know, GPU-accelerated scrolling.

00:13:42   But yeah, even when they did like a navigation where you'd hit an element, it would try to do a slide,

00:13:46   it was all stuttery, like, that was not fooling anybody.

00:13:48   I would like to see actually a blind test between,

00:13:51   "You tell me, is this a web page or is this a native app?"

00:13:54   I guess you'd start with something simple as just like this, like a control gallery.

00:13:57   So someone makes a native app on Google's new operating system with these controls,

00:14:01   and then someone makes the web equivalent, and doesn't tell you which is which,

00:14:04   and you have to fiddle around with them and guess, like, two devices, which one is the web one, which is--

00:14:08   That would be interesting.

00:14:09   That's the true test, I suppose.

00:14:11   - That's the Pepsi challenge?

00:14:12   - ABX testing.

00:14:13   - You have to take it serious.

00:14:16   Anything else on this?

00:14:18   - I share everyone else's opinion for the most part,

00:14:19   that it looks on first glance

00:14:22   to have way too much animation,

00:14:24   but again, we'll have to see how that plays out.

00:14:27   - All right.

00:14:28   Do we wanna go through this biomedical follow-up stuff?

00:14:32   - Yeah, I think we should,

00:14:34   before Apple comes out with an iWatch

00:14:35   and then becomes less relevant.

00:14:37   Plus, we just got to clear out the space out of our document.

00:14:39   Yeah, exactly.

00:14:40   Yeah, so this we got feedback a while back

00:14:42   when we were talking about wearables, probably before WWDC.

00:14:46   The first bit is from a biomedical engineer

00:14:48   named Ben Griffell.

00:14:49   And the second bit is from a doctor named--

00:14:53   oh, god, I'm not even going to do this one.

00:14:55   One of you sacrificed yourself.

00:14:56   Not it.

00:14:57   He actually put it in his email, try and pronounce that.

00:15:00   So he's just taunting us.

00:15:01   And we do not live up to his challenge.

00:15:04   His first name is-- the first name is P-E-R.

00:15:07   I'm going to go with per.

00:15:08   And his last name has a capital O with two dots on top of it,

00:15:11   and then it just goes on from there.

00:15:12   I'm going to say perostegren.

00:15:14   I think that sounds reasonable.

00:15:16   That's accurate enough.

00:15:17   It's probably not that far off.

00:15:18   So the biomedical engineer was responding

00:15:20   to our questions several shows ago about,

00:15:23   what do you need to get vitals from people?

00:15:26   What kind of hardware do you need?

00:15:30   And he says, getting a good heart rate

00:15:32   requires at least two sensor attachments to the body.

00:15:35   I actually saw someone running with one of those you receive one of those bands that goes around your chest

00:15:38   Yeah, yeah, like forgetting your heart rate. I assume that's a similar thing where it has two sensors

00:15:42   Otherwise, why would it wrap around your whole body?

00:15:44   So having it having just the wrist thing might not be great for that and

00:15:50   Oxygen saturation he says it's feasible with current tech

00:15:55   but like the other person whose name I'm not going to pronounce again is

00:16:01   His main issue is what do you do with this information assuming you even can collect it and the doctor's opinion is that?

00:16:09   When dealing with any of this data you're faced with a couple problems one is that most people's vitals are

00:16:14   Stay within a reasonable range assuming they're healthy so it's not that interesting data if you were to chart it

00:16:19   There's not like you're gonna see big fluctuations because if you do you should probably be in the hospital because it's not you know

00:16:24   Certain things like blood oxygenation should not be radically out of bounds

00:16:28   He says that your pulse at oxygen level and blood pressure should only vary within a few percent.

00:16:34   So this is a boring graph, so I assume you could zoom in on the axes and exaggerate the differences.

00:16:38   But he says, "When dealing with data points in my work, context is everything.

00:16:42   Is that pulse rate normal or not? Depends on the context.

00:16:44   Same goes for with fever, blood pressure, etc.

00:16:46   Taken out of context, there is nothing to analyze."

00:16:48   And the whole idea is that the most important thing that doctors do is get a context for these readings,

00:16:54   and the numbers in isolation without a trained doctor to look at them are meaningless.

00:16:58   certainly meaningless to like an untrained person

00:17:00   just looking at these numbers

00:17:01   and trying to know what this information is.

00:17:05   So I mostly agree with all of this.

00:17:09   And a lot of people in the medical field

00:17:11   are nervous about this stuff ever being used

00:17:13   for anything remotely approaching medical purposes.

00:17:15   Like I'm sure these things

00:17:16   will have to come with these glammers.

00:17:17   Like this is not for you to self-diagnose.

00:17:20   This is not telling you whether you're sick or healthy.

00:17:23   This is not telling you whether you should or shouldn't

00:17:25   go to the doctor or the hospital.

00:17:26   like, I don't know, for entertainment purposes only,

00:17:29   like Fitbit, you know, like Fitbit is safe

00:17:32   'cause it's, you know, steps and not even really steps,

00:17:34   just how many times the Fitbit has wiggled

00:17:36   in a step-like manner.

00:17:38   And that's kind of like gamified,

00:17:39   but once you start getting into things

00:17:40   and start looking like things

00:17:42   that you might measure in a hospital,

00:17:44   I guess Apple or any other company that does this stuff

00:17:46   has to be careful in saying,

00:17:48   "This information is not diagnosing you with anything.

00:17:51   It is not a doctor.

00:17:52   Consult your doctor before blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

00:17:54   I think all of that is true.

00:17:56   I also think there is a reasonable,

00:18:00   entertainment-only, gamified version of this

00:18:02   that could come into being.

00:18:03   And long-term, for people who do have chronic illnesses

00:18:06   and stuff, you would imagine,

00:18:07   like there we show this in the demos from the '80s and '90s,

00:18:09   and I'm sure they're doing it today with a million devices

00:18:11   that people will email us about.

00:18:12   But if you have a chronic condition

00:18:14   that requires monitoring,

00:18:16   having technology to have a device

00:18:18   that does monitor this information

00:18:19   and relays it to your actual doctor

00:18:21   so that you can have sort of, not 24/7 care,

00:18:24   but like redundant monitoring by health professionals

00:18:27   of your actual vitals, because as part of some condition.

00:18:31   Like you can imagine, imagine if there was a way

00:18:33   to constantly get your blood sugar level

00:18:36   for people with diabetes without pricking your finger.

00:18:38   You just put on this wrist strap

00:18:40   and then like your doctor would automatically have,

00:18:43   or like an entire medical staff somewhere

00:18:45   would automatically have your blood sugar

00:18:47   and could notify you when you're overdoing it

00:18:50   and remind you to, you know, take your insulin shot

00:18:52   before you go off to bed or whatever.

00:18:54   That's like the future world technology

00:18:55   they always show up for remote medicine.

00:18:57   And I suppose the silly entertainment stuff like Fitbit

00:19:00   is like a little miniature step along the way to that.

00:19:03   But anyway, it was mostly a pessimistic view of this stuff

00:19:07   that from the medical professionals,

00:19:10   they think it's not as useful as the fantasy scenarios

00:19:15   make it out to be, and I'm inclined to agree with them.

00:19:18   - Well, maybe this would provide context to a doctor.

00:19:21   I think you're right in that it could never be used for serious medicine.

00:19:26   But maybe you could say, maybe this app or the health kit or whatever could say, "Well,

00:19:33   your heart rate generally falls between this and that and right now it's at two beats

00:19:38   per minute so you might be dead."

00:19:40   And so maybe it will provide that context that you wouldn't have otherwise had because

00:19:45   you don't normally walk around with a heart rate monitor strapped to your body.

00:19:49   Oh yeah, this last bit that I wanted to get to, and anyone who has spent any time in a

00:19:53   hospital recently or ever recognizes that, like, talking about the existing automated

00:19:59   devices in hospitals for tracking vitals, and how many of them have warnings or alarms

00:20:05   that go off, and how often those warnings or alarms mean anything.

00:20:08   On TV shows, they always mean something.

00:20:09   When the little buzzy beepy thing goes off, doctors run around and it's something serious

00:20:12   and the dramatic music starts playing.

00:20:14   In actual hospitals, the stupid buzzy warning things go off all the time, and the staff

00:20:18   there knows whether it's serious or not and there's tons of false positives and

00:20:22   the thing that differentiates a false positive from time for doctors to run

00:20:25   around with their heads you know on fire is the trained medical professionals who

00:20:30   know what can be disregarded and what can and what's an equipment

00:20:33   malfunction and what's the sensor that just slipped off and what's a serious

00:20:35   situation you know and like I said I don't spend a lot of time on hospitals

00:20:39   but I spent enough time to know that BP things going off in the beginning started

00:20:44   freaking you out until you realize that BP things go off all the time and only

00:20:47   some small percentage of the time doesn't mean anything and when it does mean something hopefully

00:20:51   you know the doctors and nurses are on it but the rest of the time the doctors and nurses are

00:20:56   resetting the thing turning the thing off recalibrating the thing reattaching something and

00:21:00   that just goes to show how much of humans are a factor in this stuff and how little

00:21:05   automated devices even hospital-grade automated devices can do on their own.

00:21:09   We are sponsored this week by our returning friends igloo the internet that you will actually

00:21:15   like. Now, I know Casey, you work in the world of intranets frequently, is that correct?

00:21:22   Is there a market for somebody coming along to make an intranet that's good because,

00:21:27   you know, it kind of implies that other intranets are terrible. Would you generally say that's

00:21:32   the case?

00:21:33   Would you say there's a market for an iPod, a phone, and an internet communicator all

00:21:40   in one?

00:21:41   Well, I mean, a PC guy's not just gonna come in here and take the market. They're not

00:21:44   just walk in. Right, naturally. But if you are Igloo, you could just walk in and take

00:21:49   the market. Turns out most internets are terrible and Igloo is awesome. And that's actually

00:21:55   a really good business model. You know, go find something terrible and make an awesome

00:21:58   version. Anyway, Igloo has a super exciting release coming this summer called Unicorn.

00:22:03   Now we've talked about this before. A couple months ago, or a month ago, we told you about

00:22:08   Unicorn a little bit. So just to recap, Unicorn has a ton of new features. But the best is

00:22:13   integrated task management that will change how you stay on track with work.

00:22:17   Igloo tasks can be assigned in different ways depending on the work you're doing.

00:22:21   One of the coolest ways to use tasks is creating them directly on your content.

00:22:25   Why do you need this? So for instance when requesting updates on a graphic or

00:22:29   a text correction on a Word document, you can create these

00:22:34   tasks right on your content so you and your team stay up to date with what has

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00:22:43   forum topic inside your igloo, because igloo can do all those cool things, these tasks are right

00:22:47   there informing everyone if all tasks have been completed or if it needs additional work. You can

00:22:52   assign these tasks to yourself or a teammate, comment on the tasks, and keep all of your

00:22:56   changes in one place. And when you're the one who's been assigned a task, all your tasks show

00:23:01   up in a unified dashboard within your igloo, with due dates clearly marked, making it super simple

00:23:06   to manage your day-to-day work and clarify your priorities. Man, I want to throw a parking lot

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00:23:11   Unicorn is a free update for all Igloo customers

00:23:15   coming this summer.

00:23:16   So learn more at igloosoftware.com/atp.

00:23:20   Once again, that's igloosoftware.com/atp.

00:23:24   Thank you very much to Igloo for sponsoring our show

00:23:26   once again, good people over there.

00:23:27   - Yeah, they're very good people over there.

00:23:29   Up there, I guess I should say.

00:23:30   - Oh yeah, yeah, they're up in the great white north, right?

00:23:33   - Indeed.

00:23:34   Aperture and iPhoto are dead

00:23:37   and being replaced by iCloud Photos.

00:23:40   Any thoughts on this from somebody who actually pays attention to photography,

00:23:43   which I am not that person.

00:23:44   What do you guys use? Let's start with that.

00:23:47   I used in the past, I, uh, I photo occasionally,

00:23:52   but I felt like even for my photo collection pre children,

00:23:56   although it goes back to like 2002 or something like that, um,

00:24:01   it was really slow, like really, really slow.

00:24:04   And so I tried to buy into using that as my photo management

00:24:09   application and then it took me all of a couple of weeks to revert back to using the file system.

00:24:14   That system is not going to scale once your child gets here, let me just tell you.

00:24:18   Using the file system, jeez. I've used iPhoto and Aperture and I think I had a demo of Lightroom

00:24:25   installed for a while and I always kept going back to iPhoto despite the fact that it has gotten

00:24:29   worse and worse over the years and drives me insane for two reasons. One, I have invested a

00:24:36   a lot of time in adding metadata to my photos in iPhoto.

00:24:41   And yeah, I know Aperture shares library

00:24:43   and all that other good stuff.

00:24:44   But two, the features that I use most frequently

00:24:48   either aren't in Aperture now or weren't in Aperture

00:24:52   years ago when I continued on this path,

00:24:53   like face recognition came first iPhoto.

00:24:56   Is that even in Aperture yet?

00:24:57   - I believe they brought over all that stuff

00:24:59   in like a point one update.

00:25:01   - Like the photo books, the slide shows,

00:25:04   all the silly consumer grade things

00:25:06   they put in iPhoto, we use them. Not frequently, but every once in a while it's nice to have

00:25:09   them there. And again, with the library sharing it's probably not that big of a deal, but

00:25:12   basically we've, I've just sunk so many hours and so much time into iPhoto. All my photos

00:25:18   are in iPhoto, they're organized in there, they're rated, mostly keyworded, all sorts

00:25:23   of other stuff. And I just don't do any adjustments of them. I have no idea what I'm doing in

00:25:29   Aperture or Lightroom. My photos aren't that good quality anyway because I don't really

00:25:32   have a real camera. So yeah, I've been to iPhoto forever and that's where all my pictures

00:25:37   are.

00:25:38   So I've actually used all of these things before and it's been like it beyond just like

00:25:43   using it for like a day or two. I started out with all iPhoto. Then I tried Aperture

00:25:50   for I was all iPhoto through my first SLR phase for three or four years. Then I switched

00:25:58   over to Lightroom, I mean to Aperture first for about a year and a half or two years,

00:26:04   then Lightroom, then back to Aperture, then back to Lightroom. And each one with like

00:26:09   you know a six month interval there at the end. And now I've been at Lightroom for

00:26:13   a couple years and they've all driven me crazy in different ways. None of them are

00:26:18   great solutions. And you know the iOS situation is not great either. The iOS situation pre-8

00:26:27   with the Photos app on iOS being just kind of this browser

00:26:31   that could do very little,

00:26:33   the camera app being kind of half integrated into it,

00:26:35   and then the separate iPhoto app,

00:26:38   which I don't know anybody who uses iPhoto on iOS.

00:26:40   I tried it briefly, and it was so clunky and terrible to me

00:26:44   that I couldn't stand it.

00:26:46   But on the desktop, these programs have all had issues.

00:26:50   They've all driven me nuts.

00:26:52   My photo was by far the least aggravating

00:26:57   for the longest time in that if you wanna do

00:27:02   pretty passive management of your photos,

00:27:05   like you know what, I don't wanna create albums

00:27:08   and sets and tags and keywords,

00:27:10   I just wanna import everything

00:27:11   and be able to browse it quickly, that's it.

00:27:13   I know this is not maybe as common as other people think,

00:27:17   I don't know.

00:27:19   I've never used metadata features at all.

00:27:22   I tagged all the faces in iPhoto when that came out

00:27:24   and then I never looked at them again,

00:27:25   so that was a waste of time.

00:27:27   iPhoto has always been the simplest

00:27:31   because it didn't require much organization

00:27:35   and you could browse quickly and performance was critical.

00:27:40   Aperture has always had by far the worst performance

00:27:44   of any of these things.

00:27:44   Even on a Mac Pro, even with an SSD,

00:27:48   Aperture performance has always been much slower for me

00:27:51   than Lightroom or iPhoto.

00:27:53   And even in a fairly recent update,

00:27:56   I think like two years ago,

00:27:57   which for Aperture is recent

00:27:58   'cause no one ever works on it,

00:28:00   but in a fairly recent update to Aperture,

00:28:01   they even did the thing where you could merge the library

00:28:03   where Aperture and iPhoto could share the same library,

00:28:05   which is an interesting move.

00:28:08   Even that didn't make Aperture fast.

00:28:10   It's always been very, very slow

00:28:12   just browsing through collections and stuff,

00:28:14   and it's also been very buggy.

00:28:16   And I tried a lot of different versions of Aperture

00:28:17   'cause whenever a new one would come out,

00:28:19   all the Aperture fans would say,

00:28:20   oh, they finally made it better,

00:28:22   so I'd go back and try again.

00:28:24   And it was never really that much better.

00:28:25   It's like desktop Linux, everyone always says,

00:28:27   it's better now, go try it again.

00:28:30   And it never really is,

00:28:31   like at least not meaningfully enough

00:28:33   to people who don't use it every day

00:28:35   to really see that, oh, no,

00:28:36   this is still annoying the crap out of me

00:28:38   and having these weird bugs and weird performance issues.

00:28:41   Lightroom has by far the best performance

00:28:46   and the best stability compared to the other apps.

00:28:50   But Lightroom's interface is clunky.

00:28:52   And although, honestly, I found Aperture's interface

00:28:53   clunky as well.

00:28:55   Even iPhoto, like, I totally agree with Jon

00:28:58   that while I was still trying it,

00:29:00   and I still go back to it occasionally,

00:29:02   it does seem like every release is worse than the last one.

00:29:04   There's something about like,

00:29:06   the things they do to try to make it easier

00:29:09   usually end up making it clunkier,

00:29:11   which you wouldn't expect, but that's been the case.

00:29:13   And so I've tried all these apps, none of them are great,

00:29:16   and only the Apple apps have the integration

00:29:19   with the iOS devices.

00:29:20   So if you're an iOS device user

00:29:23   and you want nice sync between all these things,

00:29:26   only Aperture and iPhoto have that.

00:29:28   And Lightroom has, they recently launched

00:29:31   their own sync platform.

00:29:32   Adobe's had a weird history with this.

00:29:33   First they launched Adobe Revel

00:29:35   about two years ago, I think.

00:29:37   And it was a good idea.

00:29:40   In fact, a lot of the stuff

00:29:41   that the new Photos Cloud thing is doing,

00:29:44   Revel did it two years ago.

00:29:47   but it was a weird combo with weird limitations

00:29:51   that was never very well marketed.

00:29:52   It was very clear that it was not a top priority for Adobe.

00:29:56   So then Lightroom Cloud was,

00:30:00   are they calling it Lightroom Cloud, Lightroom Mobile,

00:30:01   whatever they're, Lightroom released a sync product

00:30:03   like two months ago or something like that.

00:30:05   And you had to manually drag over things that were synced.

00:30:09   It would not sync your whole library.

00:30:12   It wouldn't even let you sync a smart album

00:30:14   so you couldn't do a trick where you say,

00:30:15   all right, we'll just sync everything

00:30:16   from the last six years, you know?

00:30:17   Couldn't even do that.

00:30:18   You have to manually select what got synced,

00:30:20   which kind of ruins the way I wanted to use it.

00:30:23   And what I want is what Apple is giving us.

00:30:26   Now, I am sad that Aperture is going away

00:30:29   in the sense that there's gonna be less competition

00:30:31   for Lightroom, but there wasn't that much to begin with,

00:30:34   'cause Aperture was so badly maintained by Apple.

00:30:36   It hardly ever got new releases.

00:30:39   It rarely got new features.

00:30:41   Does it even, I know this is probably,

00:30:44   some people consider this minor, but does it even have lens profiles yet for cameras?

00:30:47   Like Lightroom added that a couple years ago and it's, oh, it's such an incredibly good

00:30:51   feature because you don't realize how distorted your camera is until you click on that checkbox

00:30:55   that applies the lens profile in Lightroom and you see, whoop, oh.

00:30:58   Alright, people in the chat say no, didn't get lens profiles.

00:31:02   Don't you feel like it's kind of a shame that like, not that Aputure defined the category

00:31:06   but that Aputure essentially popularized a category of application that previously was

00:31:13   only used by professional photographers. It sort of made it prosumer. Because when we

00:31:17   were talking about Aperture and Twitter and everything, and everyone was chiming in with

00:31:19   the names of these applications that I've never heard of, probably because they're used

00:31:22   by pro photographers. And Aperture was like, prosumer. Oh, here's an application like the

00:31:27   ones that pros use, probably nicer because it's made by Apple and doesn't have any weird

00:31:32   -- you know, it's not made by some weird company that sells a small number of copies. This

00:31:35   is Apple. Is it going to be friendly? It's going to be prosumer. But it fulfills the

00:31:39   the same role and then Lightroom said,

00:31:42   that's great and all Apple, but here's how you actually

00:31:44   do that app and not make it suck.

00:31:45   - Right, and Aperture was just relentless in its updates

00:31:48   and like new cameras would come out

00:31:50   with crazy new raw formats.

00:31:52   - Lightroom you mean?

00:31:53   - Yeah, yeah, obviously.

00:31:54   Like new cameras would come out with crazy new raw formats

00:31:57   and Lightroom would beat Aperture to supporting

00:31:59   almost every single one and often by like weeks or months,

00:32:03   it was often a pretty big difference.

00:32:05   And just you know, the processing engine,

00:32:08   Like, I always liked, and this was, I was torn,

00:32:11   one of the reasons I kept switching back and forth,

00:32:14   I always liked the results I got from Aperture,

00:32:16   from editing in Aperture.

00:32:18   I edited some of my favorite pictures in it.

00:32:23   But Lightroom's editing controls are better.

00:32:26   I was really very, very impressed

00:32:29   with the output of Aperture,

00:32:30   but I hated every part of getting there.

00:32:32   Whereas with Lightroom, it's now,

00:32:35   like the tools are much more advanced

00:32:36   and they've slowly made it a little bit more artsy

00:32:39   rather than analytical and everything,

00:32:42   and so they're improving on that front.

00:32:43   But the biggest problem with these apps,

00:32:46   that's always been the case with Aperture and Lightroom,

00:32:49   and I know there's other apps out there.

00:32:50   My wife uses Bridge.

00:32:51   In fact, Casey, for the same reason.

00:32:53   She likes the file system approach.

00:32:55   We have a kid, we have many pictures of the kid,

00:32:57   and she uses the file system, John.

00:32:59   But, (laughs)

00:33:01   'cause Bridge is, it comes with Photoshop,

00:33:04   and it's basically Lightroom's editing controls,

00:33:07   or rather Lightroom is really Bridge's editing controls,

00:33:09   but regardless, it's Lightroom's editing controls,

00:33:12   all the same tools, even with the same names,

00:33:14   just with a different skin,

00:33:16   in a way that operates directly on the file system.

00:33:19   So it's more of like a fancy image browser

00:33:21   that just browses your folders on your disk,

00:33:23   but can do these operations to them.

00:33:25   Anyway, the problem with these apps is that

00:33:28   you have the professional workflow stuff.

00:33:31   Like if you're doing shoots for clients,

00:33:34   these are not your personal photos.

00:33:35   You don't want to keep one giant library

00:33:38   of every photo you've ever shot for a client

00:33:40   merged in with the photos of your dog.

00:33:42   That doesn't really make sense,

00:33:44   doesn't really work, doesn't really scale.

00:33:46   And so Photoshop and Lightroom and Aperture

00:33:49   were both built to address this market of professionals

00:33:52   who do shoots with these big collections,

00:33:55   these big sets that you have to bring in

00:33:56   and out of your library and manage your storage

00:33:59   in different crazy ways and everything.

00:34:01   That's what they're for.

00:34:03   There's also this entire community of people like us,

00:34:06   people who might buy an SLR or a fancy camera

00:34:10   and want really advanced editing controls

00:34:13   for making our photos look good after we take them,

00:34:15   or fancy RAW controls or things like that,

00:34:19   or RAW handling rather,

00:34:20   and then lossless editing controls.

00:34:23   There's people like us who want that power,

00:34:25   the power of those editing tools,

00:34:27   who don't need or necessarily even want

00:34:30   that crazy pro photographer workflow and storage

00:34:34   and collection management that these apps bring

00:34:37   and kind of force you to use.

00:34:39   iPhoto actually has a very,

00:34:41   it has always had a very small amount of RAW options.

00:34:44   The way it used to work, and please chat,

00:34:46   correct me if I'm wrong, with new versions,

00:34:48   but the way it used to work,

00:34:49   the first time you edited a RAW photo,

00:34:51   you would actually have lossless RAW controls there,

00:34:54   and you could make great adjustments.

00:34:56   It wouldn't really indicate that

00:34:57   except for like a little RAW badge in the corner,

00:34:59   but you were doing, it wasn't like importing a JPEG

00:35:03   and operating on that, you were actually working

00:35:04   on the RAW first, but as soon as you exited that first edit,

00:35:08   it would write the changes, it would bake them

00:35:11   into the JPEG preview, and then you'd never have

00:35:13   lossless editing on that file after that

00:35:14   unless you totally reverted it back to original

00:35:17   and then reprocessed it.

00:35:19   And so iPhoto had these half-assed RAW editing controls.

00:35:23   It looks to almost all of, almost all the hints we got,

00:35:27   all the info we got and if you look at the articles that reported the apertures

00:35:32   being discontinued they all came with this additional screenshot of the photos

00:35:35   app that we haven't seen before that wasn't in the keynote that shows

00:35:38   controls and things that weren't in the keynote and it looks a lot like aperture

00:35:43   and Lightroom it looks like it has a ton of editing controls on in the right-hand

00:35:48   column really advanced stuff beyond what you normally get in iPhoto and looks

00:35:53   like the same kind of stuff you get in aperture and Lightroom it sure looks

00:35:57   like what they've really done here is now we will have the

00:36:01   simplified management of iPhoto and all the convenience of the

00:36:05   files being synced and being part of our official photo library on our Macs and iPhones

00:36:09   and our iPads and it looks like they've finally given

00:36:13   iPhoto or the new Photos app rather, but they finally brought

00:36:17   those pro-level editing tools into the consumer level photo

00:36:21   management app, which is something we've never had before. As I said iPhoto used

00:36:25   to have kind of this half-assed version, but it sure looks like they're giving us exactly

00:36:31   what people like us want. This is not what pro photographers really need, but it certainly

00:36:36   is what people like me and you guys need, you know? Where it's still a consumer app,

00:36:42   it's going to have simple management I'm sure, probably very similar to the iOS Photos app,

00:36:47   but it has all these advanced controls. And that, to me, I'm very excited about this.

00:36:52   I don't think I'm gonna stop using Lightroom,

00:36:55   but I might.

00:36:56   Like it looks like it's good enough

00:36:58   that it might be good enough for me

00:37:00   to drop Lightroom entirely.

00:37:02   - Well, their editing controls,

00:37:03   the big thing they were showing in the keynote was,

00:37:05   you know, not just prosumer,

00:37:07   but going down to consumer level.

00:37:08   When consumers are faced with the actual controls available

00:37:11   in Aperture or Lightroom, they'd have no idea what to do.

00:37:13   I don't know what to do.

00:37:14   Like it's just, it's too complicated.

00:37:15   There's too much involved.

00:37:16   You're never gonna get anything right.

00:37:17   So that's why iPhoto just has a big red button

00:37:19   called enhance that tries to do something reasonable.

00:37:21   and then it's got a few tweaks for, you know,

00:37:23   a few other minor controls.

00:37:25   The Photos app is trying to take it farther.

00:37:27   It's like, we are going to sort of kind of expose

00:37:30   all the crazy controls you see,

00:37:31   but we're also gonna give you a big friendly slider

00:37:34   that says, please make picture better now along some axes,

00:37:38   and that slider won't adjust any one thing.

00:37:40   That slider will adjust 17 factors

00:37:42   and not even in a constant ratio,

00:37:44   just trying to do like a smart adjustment,

00:37:46   because they know that most people don't know enough

00:37:48   to correctly adjust the little sliders

00:37:50   to get everything right,

00:37:51   want to and they know that the big red enhance button is also the other end of

00:37:55   the spectrum it's not good enough they want to give you some control you tell

00:37:58   oh this picture is a little bit too dark this picture looks like it's a little

00:38:01   bit underexposed like if you can get a few basic concepts and then grab a hold

00:38:04   of one of those sliders they will do sophisticated stuff behind the covers

00:38:08   that involves adjusting a hundred sliders to try to get you something nice

00:38:11   and this is moving farther and farther away from professionals and towards the

00:38:14   realm of consumers but trying to make it useful you're like if we give this

00:38:17   picture to a pro they could make it look better than you ever will but how close

00:38:21   can we get you without teaching you really anything but some basic concepts about

00:38:26   photography

00:38:28   And did you see the larger screenshot this on put in the chat room? Yeah. Yeah, it confirms

00:38:32   I think pretty much everything yeah, it does actually it's hard to see in this picture

00:38:37   But actually almost looks kind of light roomy in terms of like the UI, you know

00:38:40   Like I like less like aperture with this strange squinty Pro interface and all that

00:38:46   Stuff but so I made I made a list of pros and cons for the photos app

00:38:50   that's going to be replacing this from my perspective because

00:38:52   Despite all the editing stuff that you just talked about. I think most people don't edit their photos

00:38:57   I bet that people most people don't even hit the big red enhance button. I bet most people don't even crop their photos

00:39:02   I think they just

00:39:04   Collect them and then have want to find have some way to go through them

00:39:08   So organization is the more important thing

00:39:11   But so from my perspective what I do with things in iPhoto is the reason I add all this metadata is for organizational purposes

00:39:17   So that I can do things like I just have too many damn pictures so I can do things like

00:39:22   three plus stars featuring my daughter from Long Island in 2010 and that will give me like seven photos if I wanted to make a

00:39:29   Calendar page if we're printing out a family calendar of cute pictures of my daughter from on the beach in that time and

00:39:36   How do I get to do that out of my thousands and thousands and thousands of photos because I rate every single one of them

00:39:41   Because I keyword them because I make sure the face recognition works so that I can do

00:39:45   smart searches and smart albums that very quickly give me the seven or eight good pictures out of the hundreds or thousands that I

00:39:51   Took and I would say that's that puts you in a severe minority

00:39:54   I mean, I I would bet you're totally right. Most people don't even edit their photos don't even crop them

00:39:59   But I would also bet almost, you know comparably nobody

00:40:03   Actually edits metadata, right? Well, I'm not saying that's the that's the right solution

00:40:08   I'm saying that's what I've done

00:40:09   But like what I think actually before I get to my pros and cons

00:40:11   but I think the correct solution for the photos app is

00:40:13   Dump all the photos into one big thing and give people like the the ability to like

00:40:17   Not the obviously you can't use Facebook's like but I think that's something people can do people and take a bunch of photos

00:40:22   People can go there's maybe all the photos that someone takes the person who took the pictures goes through them at least once like they want

00:40:28   To look at the pictures they took. I'm not even sure that's a safe assumption

00:40:31   But good. I think they take the photos they go through them once they say oh, that's a good one

00:40:35   And if they had a little button that would you know do like or star or whatever then at the end of their vacation?

00:40:40   1% of their photos or 2% or depending how how kind they are to themselves have little stars in them and then in the future

00:40:47   When they want to see show me all the good pictures from that vacation

00:40:49   They don't want to go through a thousand pictures

00:40:50   Just show me the ones that I said were good that kind of binary good bad

00:40:54   Type thing where you don't say bad you just say good

00:40:56   Maybe there's a bad option to I guess put in the trash or whatever. Is there a parking lot?

00:41:01   Well, no, but the thing is, so let me use myself as a quote unquote normal insofar as I take pictures only with my iPhone

00:41:09   We have no point-and-shoot other than that. We have no SLR

00:41:12   I know that we'll all probably change when Sprouts here, but nevertheless as it is today

00:41:17   we we only have our iPhones and

00:41:19   What inevitably happens is I'll take a picture because if the occasion strikes my fancy

00:41:26   And I think that I might want to capture that moment and it goes into my photo

00:41:30   stream roll thing, whatever, on the phone.

00:41:33   And then every couple of months, I remember that,

00:41:36   ooh, I should probably take this off my phone.

00:41:38   I hook up image capture, I hook it up to the Mac,

00:41:41   run image capture, dump everything into one folder,

00:41:44   and never look at it again.

00:41:46   And these photos are extremely important to me,

00:41:50   yet I never ever look at them.

00:41:51   - But no one wants to see pictures of you and your wife.

00:41:53   People are gonna wanna see pictures of your child.

00:41:55   And so you're going to be faced with the problem of,

00:41:58   send me three good pictures,

00:41:59   and or you're gonna be making cute little kid things,

00:42:02   like I mentioned the calendars,

00:42:03   or little books or some like,

00:42:05   baby's first year type things like,

00:42:07   stuff like that comes up,

00:42:09   and you wanna distribute them,

00:42:10   so you will be faced with some kind of sorting problem,

00:42:12   because A, you'll have way more pictures

00:42:14   than you have of yourself and your wife,

00:42:15   because you'll take a million pictures of your kid,

00:42:17   and B, people will want them,

00:42:19   but people won't want a million of them,

00:42:20   they just want the one or two good ones, right?

00:42:22   So you will be faced with that task eventually,

00:42:25   of having vastly increased volume,

00:42:28   but also having the task before you

00:42:30   to come up with two or three good ones.

00:42:31   And you're gonna wanna,

00:42:32   because you're gonna wanna show your kid

00:42:33   being the cutest possible.

00:42:34   - And I understand that, but I think if,

00:42:37   again, sitting here now, very ignorant,

00:42:39   because I don't know what it's like to be a parent yet,

00:42:41   I think I would just think to myself, hmm,

00:42:44   when did Sprout, or whatever we're going to name him or her,

00:42:48   when did Sprout look cute?

00:42:51   When do I remember taking a good picture?

00:42:53   What day was that?

00:42:54   - Yeah, he thinks his memory's gonna work

00:42:57   after the child gets here.

00:42:59   So cute.

00:43:00   - Honestly, I think that's what most people do.

00:43:01   I think most people, they just browse on a timeline.

00:43:05   That's all I do.

00:43:06   - Yeah, the timeline gets big.

00:43:08   I mean, like I said, I'm not saying people need

00:43:10   to be rating each individual one and cropping it.

00:43:12   I'm saying, even when people put stuff on Facebook,

00:43:15   people like other people's photos on Facebook.

00:43:17   People say, yes, that is a good picture.

00:43:19   No, that is not a good one.

00:43:20   Just the binary, that little binary thing,

00:43:22   because every picture on Facebook gets one or two likes,

00:43:26   but individual people don't like

00:43:27   every single photo they see.

00:43:29   So too with your own pictures.

00:43:30   If you look at them at all ever,

00:43:32   it's not too much to ask, oh, that's a cute one,

00:43:34   and just click a little thing.

00:43:35   Like people fave tweets for crying out loud.

00:43:37   It's the same thing.

00:43:38   Do people read all their Twitter stream?

00:43:39   No, but sometimes they see one and they fave it.

00:43:41   I think that is the appropriate level

00:43:43   of granularity for sorting.

00:43:45   - And I'm with you.

00:43:46   And the funny thing is I actually believe

00:43:48   in having the metadata,

00:43:50   which is what I did in that two months that I spent

00:43:52   or whatever it was with iPhoto.

00:43:54   And I tried to create and generate all that metadata

00:43:57   so I could do exactly what you're describing.

00:43:59   And the thought of being able to say,

00:44:01   oh, the picture of Aaron that I liked

00:44:03   when we were at some friend's wedding

00:44:05   and getting there instantly,

00:44:07   that sounds extremely appealing to me, it really does.

00:44:10   But all of the work I would have to go through

00:44:13   to get to that point, I have no interest in whatsoever.

00:44:16   - Well, I mean, face detection is an example.

00:44:18   Like I was using keywording before face detection, as I said, to keyword each of the people,

00:44:22   but if you have face detection, the computer can do that part for you.

00:44:24   You don't have to find keyword things as having Aaron in them, face detection will narrow

00:44:28   that down for you, it's not going to be 100% effective, but look at all the work at CIFU.

00:44:32   You didn't have to categorize pictures as having Aaron in them or not, the program did

00:44:35   it for you.

00:44:37   Program probably could get to the point where it can fave things for you in terms of framing

00:44:40   and composition and whether it's in focus or not.

00:44:45   That's where they're trying to get there.

00:44:46   What Apple is trying to do is make it so that normal people can have the photo experience

00:44:50   that I have through diligent work that I put into my photo library.

00:44:54   I don't think that's it.

00:44:56   I think they're trying to adapt from a world of people hoping to use it like you and usually

00:45:03   not and failing.

00:45:04   They're trying to adapt from that world to the way people actually use their photo libraries

00:45:10   today.

00:45:11   I know, but they want them to have the advantages that I have without the work.

00:45:15   That's what I'm getting at.

00:45:16   Same thing with the editing.

00:45:17   They want them to be able to edit photos kind of sort of like a pro without knowing anything

00:45:22   that the pros know.

00:45:23   They want them to be able to find their photos quickly, the ones that they like, without

00:45:26   having to put any work into organizing them and saying which ones are good and putting

00:45:29   them into little albums and doing all that stuff.

00:45:32   That's what all their things are towards.

00:45:33   They want you to have powerful features without putting in a lot of work.

00:45:36   All right.

00:45:37   So what are your pros and cons?

00:45:38   All right.

00:45:39   So this is from my perspective, obviously, as an iPhoto user.

00:45:42   So we already touched on a lot of these pros, but just to go down the list here.

00:45:45   So full cloud backup of everything, assuming you pay enough money.

00:45:49   That's what we've talked about this forever.

00:45:51   What they seem to be saying is all your photos will be everywhere.

00:45:55   We'll take care of it.

00:45:56   They'll all be in the cloud.

00:45:57   They'll be full resolution, assuming you pay us enough money.

00:46:00   But I mean, fine, whatever.

00:46:01   Like if they come through on that and the pricing is not outside my price range, I would

00:46:06   call that a pro because right now I have to roll my own solution for that.

00:46:11   whereas in this system, I wouldn't need to.

00:46:14   No one device has to hold all your photos.

00:46:16   So if my Mac isn't big enough to hold my photo library,

00:46:18   if my phone isn't big enough to hold my photo library,

00:46:20   if my iPad isn't big enough, doesn't matter.

00:46:21   They don't all need to be in any one device.

00:46:23   They're all in the cloud.

00:46:24   Some subset of them is on your devices.

00:46:27   You don't have to worry about it.

00:46:28   But all photos are browsable,

00:46:30   are available to you on all devices.

00:46:31   So just because all your pictures can't fit on your phone,

00:46:34   if you scroll back to, you know, 1996,

00:46:36   you should still be able to browse through there,

00:46:38   even though those aren't, you know,

00:46:39   So dynamically taking care of what's on the device,

00:46:41   what's not.

00:46:43   That's the whole promise of this system,

00:46:45   getting us out of individual applications

00:46:47   and stuff like that.

00:46:48   Presumably edits show up everywhere.

00:46:50   So if you crop a photo on your phone,

00:46:51   if you crop it on your Mac, if you crop it on your iPad,

00:46:53   wherever you do that work to it,

00:46:55   that edit would show up everywhere.

00:46:57   You don't, oh, I cropped that on my phone,

00:46:58   but the version on my iPhone library isn't cropped.

00:47:00   Or the one in PhotoStream is cropped,

00:47:01   but the one in my library isn't.

00:47:02   Like all these weird things like that,

00:47:04   presumably would show up everywhere.

00:47:06   and also presumably organizational changes

00:47:09   that show up everywhere.

00:47:10   If they have a concept of an album

00:47:11   and if you happen to make an album,

00:47:13   I would hope that that album shows up

00:47:15   everywhere that your pictures are.

00:47:17   So if you make the album on your Mac,

00:47:18   the album would show up on your phone.

00:47:19   If you make the album on your phone,

00:47:20   it shows up on your iPad.

00:47:22   That's the dream of this arrangement

00:47:25   of being divorced from a program that lives in one place

00:47:28   that has a library that's in a folder

00:47:30   or in some big bundle thing or whatever.

00:47:34   Now, on the con side, the one I immediately think of is,

00:47:37   how do I make a backup of this?

00:47:39   How do I make a local backup?

00:47:40   Because if all my photos aren't on my Mac,

00:47:42   and all my photos aren't on my iPod,

00:47:43   and all my photos aren't on my iPad,

00:47:47   what if I want to have a hard drive in my house,

00:47:50   or even just do my own online backup

00:47:52   to Backblazer or whatever, how do I do that?

00:47:54   How do I make a backup of this?

00:47:56   Or am I out of the picture on that?

00:47:58   Now, no, I'm sorry, you're not allowed to have a backup of it.

00:48:00   And that leads me to the second con,

00:48:02   which is, what's my recourse

00:48:03   if some of my pictures disappear.

00:48:04   Say I buy into the system, upload all my stuff,

00:48:07   all my pictures are in the cloud,

00:48:08   some subset of them is all my devices,

00:48:10   then I try to go back to some pictures from 2004

00:48:13   that I know we took a beach vacation and I can't find them,

00:48:17   or they're there and they're all blank white,

00:48:18   or they're all scrambled or whatever.

00:48:19   What is my recourse?

00:48:20   I don't have a local backup, remember,

00:48:22   and now they're all screwed up.

00:48:23   Or what if they all spawn duplicates

00:48:24   and I have three of every picture

00:48:26   and I have to go through and manually delete them?

00:48:28   What is my reset?

00:48:29   How do I start over if I don't have a local backup?

00:48:33   This is like reliability basically saying,

00:48:35   do I trust Apple to be the cloud storage for all my photos?

00:48:38   And I clearly I don't.

00:48:39   How severely will the organizational tools

00:48:42   that I happen to use be curtailed?

00:48:43   I presume they will curtail the organizational tools

00:48:46   because like Marco said,

00:48:47   most people don't use half of these tools.

00:48:48   Why would they include them in the photos app?

00:48:50   Ratings, keywords, albums, faces, events,

00:48:53   like all these things,

00:48:54   all these concepts that exist in iPhoto,

00:48:56   I imagine almost all of them would be gone in photos.

00:48:59   And that's fine for most people,

00:49:01   but it's not good for me

00:49:02   because I put a lot of time and effort into those.

00:49:05   And what happens to that data when, you know,

00:49:07   how will I import my existing iPhoto library

00:49:10   into the system?

00:49:11   Will there be a way for me to do that?

00:49:13   Even just saying stuff like crops.

00:49:14   Like I spend a lot of time cropping pictures that I like.

00:49:16   Like that's not a big complicated edit.

00:49:19   Is that something I'm gonna lose?

00:49:20   Are all my crops gonna be gone?

00:49:22   Will there be a migration path from iPhoto into this thing

00:49:25   that maintains as much of my metadata as possible?

00:49:28   Or will it just be like, nope, sorry,

00:49:29   will just read your original JPEGs off disk again and upload them and you'll have to do

00:49:33   or re-edit them and everything.

00:49:35   So in these pros and cons, I'm kind of excited about the pros, but if some of these cons

00:49:39   can't be addressed, I don't know what I'm going to do, because I mean, particularly

00:49:43   about the backup thing, I want to have an out if this thing gets flaky or screws up

00:49:48   my pictures in some way, I need to have a local backup.

00:49:50   And if I can't figure out how to do that, I'm just going to have to like, I don't know,

00:49:55   keep using iPhone until it doesn't run anymore or try to maintain two copies of everything.

00:49:59   in my iPhoto library and one in this cloud thing. I'm very nervous about this.

00:50:04   Well, why can't you just do image capture like I do and put that somewhere that gets

00:50:08   backed up everywhere? But then they wouldn't be in the cloud thing.

00:50:12   If I want to buy into this photos thing, I like the idea of having access to my one photo

00:50:17   library everywhere without having to have literally 500 gigabytes of photos attached

00:50:22   to every Mac in my house, and I can't fit it on any of my iOS devices. I want to see

00:50:27   my photos from everywhere. I wanted to have one big shared library that everyone can see,

00:50:31   or at least the same Apple ID in every system can see. This gets into the family sharing

00:50:35   thing that drives me nuts.

00:50:36   But no, no, I'm with you. I'm saying maybe even just leave the pictures on your iPhone,

00:50:43   if you will, or, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what you would do with an SLR. But in

00:50:47   addition to whatever the normal procedure is for the new way to handle photos, also

00:50:55   take all the pictures, dump them on your Synology, for example, in some drive somewhere that

00:51:00   you're also backing up offsite?

00:51:01   Yeah, I mean, that doesn't—presumably, when I bring the photos in, I do mess with

00:51:07   them a little bit.

00:51:08   At the very least, I crop them and find the ones that are good.

00:51:11   And that work is not preserved by having a backup of folders full of pictures, whereas

00:51:16   now, what I'm backing up is essentially my iPhoto library, which has all the original

00:51:20   JPEGs, yes, but also has all the associated metadata with all the stuff.

00:51:23   So if my house burns down and I restore from a backup, what I get back is not just my original

00:51:29   photos, I get back all my crops from them, all my metadata from them, whatever metadata

00:51:32   there is to preserve, I get back.

00:51:35   Whereas if I'm just backing up the individual files, but then investing my time and continuing

00:51:40   my metadata regimes as much as I'm allowed to, at the very least with simple things like

00:51:44   albums and if not ratings and some kind of star type system, I'm not backing that up

00:51:50   anywhere.

00:51:51   That goes away.

00:51:52   And it's not like I think my house is going to burn.

00:51:53   going to go away because the earlier versions of this are going to be buggy and it's going

00:51:56   to screw up in some way and I'm going to want to reset or I'm going to want to restore

00:51:59   from backup or whatever and I'm not going to be able to.

00:52:02   Well I think this is really though a very uncommon case. I mean first of all I think

00:52:08   this is going to work like almost all these other iCloud type services and for Android

00:52:13   whatever their thing is, for Amazon for their new thing. Most people are not going to have

00:52:18   their own backup. Most people are going to be totally at the whims of the system, and

00:52:24   it'll work fine for most of them. I really think that it's just not going to be an issue

00:52:30   for most people.

00:52:31   I said these were my pros and cons, but even for things like contacts, the entirety of

00:52:36   people's contacts is probably the size of one photo from an SLR, and yet people have

00:52:42   trouble with contacts. Duplicate contacts, contacts being lost, edits to one contact

00:52:46   without showing up in another place.

00:52:47   If Apple can't get that right,

00:52:48   with such an incredibly low data volume,

00:52:50   and if that continues to be as I think it is,

00:52:52   from dealing with my relatives at least,

00:52:54   managing contacts continues to be a problem.

00:52:57   Keeping them in sync,

00:52:58   even if you're 100% on the Apple system,

00:52:59   keeping them in sync,

00:53:00   making sure all your edits are available in all places,

00:53:03   contacts are less precious than photos.

00:53:05   And I'm not sure Apple has proven that it's up to the task

00:53:08   to even doing, forget about metadata,

00:53:10   forget about anything else,

00:53:11   just the concept of I've taken a photo,

00:53:13   it exists or doesn't exist,

00:53:14   and it is accessible everywhere.

00:53:16   Simply that, it may be below the bar of things that Apple is able to pull off, or is thus

00:53:21   far proven that it's able to pull off, because I can't think of a single system that involves

00:53:25   data goes in one place and is available everywhere that works flawlessly and has reasonable debugging

00:53:30   recourse in Apple's environment. Whether it's photos, or we just talked about messages last

00:53:35   time, which is just simple text, my confidence is low. Yeah, and I think that's fair. I think

00:53:44   what's going to happen is it'll work great for most people and and by the way

00:53:50   I think most people once the photos thing is clouded I guess Wow yeah sorry

00:53:58   most people might lose most of the need for their own backups because you figure

00:54:04   like what most people do with their computers is pretty basic by by geek

00:54:10   standards it's the you know you internet stuff which is kind of always inherently

00:54:14   backed up because you can just log into stuff.

00:54:16   And then, you know, photos, maybe some documents

00:54:18   here and there.

00:54:19   Well, documents are now being moved to iCloud

00:54:21   in a lot of cases, or at least people are using Dropbox

00:54:25   or things like Dropbox.

00:54:26   With the new iCloud Drive thing, even more people

00:54:29   will be using something like that.

00:54:30   So that's kind of all covered, especially if iCloud Drive

00:54:33   becomes like the default place to save files by the system,

00:54:37   which it almost certainly would be.

00:54:38   That's backed up.

00:54:39   You have all the contact calendar, all that data backed up.

00:54:42   You have everything on your phone, you know,

00:54:44   Your music collection, your media collection,

00:54:46   that's all backed up through iTunes Match if you have that.

00:54:50   If you bought it through iTunes, it's backed up anyway.

00:54:53   And then now we're gonna have all your photos backed up.

00:54:55   I think this is gonna really remove the need

00:54:58   for a lot of people to have backups.

00:55:00   And furthermore, for people who don't have backups,

00:55:03   which is unfortunately most people,

00:55:05   having their photos be one of the things

00:55:07   that is always inherently backed up,

00:55:10   when they do have catastrophic data lost,

00:55:12   it'll be much less of an issue.

00:55:14   It'll be much less devastating

00:55:16   because they will have all their photos again.

00:55:18   That, and that's something that people almost always,

00:55:20   like that's their number one regret

00:55:22   when they have data loss,

00:55:23   that they lost their photos from X time interval

00:55:25   or this entire kid's existence or something like that.

00:55:28   So I think the benefit here is impossible to overstate.

00:55:32   - Well, we've talked about this many times.

00:55:34   We all want this.

00:55:35   We all want it to be,

00:55:36   to someone to take care of our photos.

00:55:37   What I'm saying now is not that I think it's a bad idea

00:55:40   for our photos to be in the cloud,

00:55:41   is that I want someone to take care of my photos

00:55:43   and I'm not sure that Apple is the one that I trust.

00:55:46   And even the Everpix scenario,

00:55:48   the reason Everpix was exciting was because

00:55:51   Everpix would promise to take care of all your photos,

00:55:53   but I was not entrusting my photos to Everpix

00:55:56   because I still had my iPhoto library, you know what I mean?

00:55:58   I was still backing up.

00:55:59   It was one more thing.

00:56:01   It's the scariness of saying,

00:56:03   not only is Apple volunteering to take care of your photos,

00:56:06   and not only do you hope Apple's gonna do this right,

00:56:08   but your photos won't be anyplace else.

00:56:11   Like, you know, you have like, all your eggs

00:56:14   are in one basket, and you just better watch that basket,

00:56:16   right?

00:56:17   And if it works, like that's exactly what we want.

00:56:19   Apple, please take care of the photo problem for us.

00:56:21   And like you said, like the amount of local data,

00:56:23   like why don't we just all buy Chromebooks at this point?

00:56:25   Because we think if we won't, you know,

00:56:26   everything's in Dropbox or in iCloud,

00:56:28   and your photos are all backed up,

00:56:29   and your iMessages are all backed up.

00:56:31   What local data is that?

00:56:32   You know, your email's all on a server somewhere

00:56:34   using IMAP, like the stuff that's local to your device,

00:56:38   it becomes just like a local cache,

00:56:40   which is again what we're all looking for,

00:56:41   is like tiered storage with a grid-fast local cache,

00:56:44   but none of your data needs to be there,

00:56:46   so you could smash your computer with a hammer,

00:56:48   get a new one, sign in with your Apple ID,

00:56:50   download Dropbox, install it,

00:56:52   wait a day and a half for your caches to warm up,

00:56:54   and then you're back in business.

00:56:56   That's where we wanna all get,

00:56:57   it's just that I'm not sure Apple has proven

00:57:00   that it's the one to take us there.

00:57:02   CloudKit, which apparently this is all based on,

00:57:03   is way better technologically speaking

00:57:05   from a understandability standpoint

00:57:07   than the previous one.

00:57:08   So, signs point in the right direction, as does the idea that they're even doing this

00:57:12   at all, that they're having the guts to say, "They're putting all their eggs on

00:57:15   baskets too. Aperture gone, iPhoto gone, Photos is the way, it's cloud backup for everything."

00:57:20   And then they say, "Trust us," and wink.

00:57:22   Right. And I think I totally agree with you that it is very important, like, how they

00:57:26   implement the Mac client. Things like, how does it store its files? Is there an option

00:57:32   somewhere to say, "Always store my entire library on this computer"? So you can do

00:57:37   do things like maintain your own backups.

00:57:39   'Cause look, I think that's important too.

00:57:42   As much as I put a lot of faith in the Apple ecosystem,

00:57:45   I'm also not an idiot, and I will always maintain

00:57:49   my own backups as well, and I wouldn't use a photo system

00:57:53   that didn't give me that option to easily and reasonably

00:57:56   do that, and automatically do that.

00:57:59   It is very important, and I hope Apple knows that

00:58:02   when they're implementing this.

00:58:03   And this might be one of those things where it might

00:58:05   get worse before it gets better.

00:58:07   Maybe version one might not have much of that visibility or might not have the right limits

00:58:12   or the right options rather.

00:58:13   Well, like you said, like the people who care about that, that's not who this is designed

00:58:17   for.

00:58:18   And I wouldn't blame Apple for never having that feature in there.

00:58:20   It's just that they just, they need to get it right.

00:58:22   Like the rest of it.

00:58:23   Like they're, the big thing is there needs to be some recourse.

00:58:25   Say something goes weird and all your pictures are black, like mine were in photo stream

00:58:28   for awhile, you know, or like you just get a bunch of black squares that are the right

00:58:32   aspect ratios and the right sizes, but they're all black.

00:58:35   What do I do in that case?

00:58:37   Do I just stare at it and hope?

00:58:39   Do I delete the photo stream and reinstall it?

00:58:41   Do I delete all my local photos and resync them?

00:58:44   Like I have very, and I tried all those things and they kept coming back black.

00:58:48   What do I do at that point?

00:58:49   And if that was the only place my photos are, I'd be freaking out, right?

00:58:52   And so I'm not saying that, again, I'm not saying they need a way to debug this.

00:58:55   They just need to either get it right all the time or give people some kind of tool

00:59:00   to fix it when it's not.

00:59:01   saying it right all the time is preferable,

00:59:03   but maybe asking too much.

00:59:06   - As we move to this world of cloud stuff

00:59:08   and cloud hosted things,

00:59:10   we do lose a lot of that flexibility

00:59:13   and a lot of those fail safes of,

00:59:15   like if I want to, for example,

00:59:17   if I want to move my entire iTunes library

00:59:20   to a new computer,

00:59:22   the way I would always do it would be

00:59:24   to actually just move the entire directory over.

00:59:27   And it worked, like 'cause everything,

00:59:29   all the data it read was there.

00:59:31   and it was all baked into this one folder

00:59:34   and you could quit the app, move this folder,

00:59:37   restart the app, bing, all of a sudden

00:59:39   there's all your stuff.

00:59:40   Whereas something like this that's more opaque

00:59:41   or something that's cloud-based, you can't do that.

00:59:44   And so you're right, it does make it hard to do things

00:59:45   like restore from a backup or undo a major bulk change.

00:59:50   - Or like sign out of one Apple ID

00:59:52   and sign into another Apple ID and then you're like,

00:59:54   oh, is it gonna blow away all my photos

00:59:55   from the previous Apple ID?

00:59:56   Is there gonna be smart and save them?

00:59:59   Like iPhoto, I mean, they designed it in,

01:00:02   but then it kind of hid the feature.

01:00:03   That's why you had applications like iPhoto Library Manager,

01:00:06   or just hold down the option key when you launch iPhoto,

01:00:08   if you don't know about that,

01:00:08   to like pick a different library.

01:00:09   So we have multiple iPhoto libraries,

01:00:11   where we've split things off various times,

01:00:13   but that is not, it's even less commonly used feature,

01:00:16   I think.

01:00:17   - Right, exactly.

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01:03:50   - All right, so are we done with this photos thing?

01:03:52   - We're never done with the photos thing,

01:03:53   but we can be done tonight.

01:03:55   - Oh, that's what I meant.

01:03:56   I mean, we're turning into the prompt at this point.

01:03:59   - We're probably gonna get a mountain

01:04:00   of feedback on this too.

01:04:01   - The next exciting step in the photos thing

01:04:03   will be like after the release versions

01:04:07   of all these different OSs come out,

01:04:09   and I, assuming there is any upgrade path,

01:04:11   I try taking my iPhoto library and saying,

01:04:14   here you go photos, what do you make of this?

01:04:16   And then we wait, I suppose, and see what happens.

01:04:19   Does it, do I end in a functional final situation?

01:04:23   Does it, you know, how long does it take

01:04:25   to get the photos there?

01:04:26   You know, does it, do I require double the amount

01:04:28   of storage space to get to the final destination?

01:04:31   I don't know, that will be an exciting day.

01:04:33   Certainly I will do lots of backups first.

01:04:35   - One thing though, I mean this is a really,

01:04:37   really promising thing for people who have smaller devices.

01:04:41   Like this is, I think this is gonna dramatically reduce

01:04:44   the amount of space a lot of people need

01:04:45   on their iOS devices, which is funny,

01:04:47   'cause like, you know, the rumors are this might be,

01:04:49   this might finally be the year where they start at 32.

01:04:51   - By the year they finally do a storage bump, yeah.

01:04:53   I keep hoping that for iTunes match,

01:04:55   'cause I like iTunes match,

01:04:56   except when it totally destroys my installation of iTunes,

01:04:58   causing it to absorb gigabytes of memory

01:05:00   every time I launch it.

01:05:01   But other than that, when it works, I like it.

01:05:04   And I like the idea that, you know,

01:05:06   I enable it on my iOS devices,

01:05:08   because the whole idea is that

01:05:09   if I start to run out of space,

01:05:10   the OS is supposed to say,

01:05:11   "Oh, well, let me just start ditching some of these,

01:05:15   you know, some of these audio files,

01:05:16   because I know they're on iTunes match,

01:05:17   if the person listens to them, I'll just stream them down later.

01:05:21   You know what I mean? It's supposed to be like cash space. It's expendable.

01:05:24   I don't need to sync a particular playlist onto my iPod.

01:05:27   I can have my entire music collection available and just the songs

01:05:30   that I play can be there. And there's a little cloud button.

01:05:32   You can say download this whole playlist and stuff like that.

01:05:34   And I hope that doesn't mean that it's now going to refuse

01:05:37   to expunge from memory the ones I forcibly downloaded.

01:05:41   But every time I start to fill up in disk space, I'm like,

01:05:44   why don't you just pull things some stuff off iTunes match?

01:05:46   That's the kind of the point of it.

01:05:47   So photos I'm hoping for the same thing that I'll have access to all my photos

01:05:50   But that at any one time I don't guarantee that any of them are actually on the device because you know, they wouldn't all fit

01:05:56   Yeah, I think that's how it was advertised to work

01:05:59   We'll have to go we'll have to see what happens

01:06:01   But I'm pretty sure that was the whole idea was that

01:06:03   All your photos will be backed up as long as you subscribe to one of these plan things

01:06:07   And what do you get for free? You get a pretty good amount - wasn't it like 20 gigs or something?

01:06:11   Whatever it is. It's pointless for me. But yeah for regular people

01:06:14   Well it's a good starter thing to get you suckered into eventually having to pay.

01:06:17   Right and but yeah I think the whole idea was like this is this is a big part of I think

01:06:23   their solution to iOS storage management which is just start removing some of them some of

01:06:28   the biggest things that fill up everyone's space.

01:06:30   Yeah and make it so they're removable make it so they can be purged basically if space

01:06:35   starts to get tight because you can't really purge apps I mean they haven't gotten to that

01:06:38   point they'll the apps are gonna stay so if you download some big giant game.

01:06:41   Well, they do run the cleaning things.

01:06:43   Yeah.

01:06:44   The cleaning pass that kills all the apps temporary things

01:06:46   and deletes all your new standard issues.

01:06:48   In theory, they could delete like,

01:06:49   oh, we're gonna get rid of Infinity Blade

01:06:51   'cause it's gigantic.

01:06:51   And the next time you play, we'll download after you tap.

01:06:54   (laughs)

01:06:55   It will still keep the icon there,

01:06:56   but when you tap it, it'll be like,

01:06:57   oh, actually we removed that from your system earlier.

01:06:59   I'll see if there's room now and download.

01:07:01   Can't get blood from a stone like storages.

01:07:04   They don't have magical transparent tiered storage

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01:07:07   but this is all along the path there.

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01:09:30   - John, you wanna tell me what you think

01:09:32   about the airport extreme?

01:09:34   - I didn't think much about it at all

01:09:35   because I don't have one other than I didn't like it

01:09:36   it as a fan, but we've discussed that in the past.

01:09:39   But today, someone—I saw something retweeted from Jim Ray on Twitter, I forget who retweeted

01:09:45   it, and it was about the new airport, you know, the big tower thing, the thing that

01:09:53   looks like a tissue box stood on its end, and it's designed to hold a hard drive, but

01:09:56   only the time capsule version holds a hard drive, but both the time capsule and the hard

01:10:03   hard drive-less airport, use the same case. Anyway, this was not about the fans or the

01:10:09   hard drive, this was about ports on the back. Do you guys load the pictures that I put in

01:10:13   there?

01:10:14   I saw that, and he's totally right.

01:10:16   Alright, so here's the tweet from Jim Ray, it says "design is how it works" in quotes.

01:10:21   "Hey Johnny" which he spelled wrong, but that's okay. "Maybe turn the ports 90 degrees so

01:10:25   we can actually unplug the goddamn things." And what he's talking about is the Ethernet

01:10:29   jacks on the back of this vertical tower airport base station. The Ethernet ports are done

01:10:36   so the little clicky, whatever you call it, release thing on the RJ45 things is on the

01:10:41   top. But the ports are stacked on top of each other, so to release the middle one you have

01:10:46   to wedge your finger between the middle one and the top one and get your fingernail onto

01:10:50   that little thing and then try to disengage it. And he's saying rotate them 90 degrees

01:10:55   so that all of the little whatever their release thingies would all be accessible.

01:11:00   They'd all be on the left side or on the right side instead of having them instead of having

01:11:04   to shove your fingers between the two little ports. The picture explains it better. We'll

01:11:07   put the picture in the show notes so you can take a look at it. And I retweeted this because

01:11:11   I thought this was a very good point and it reminded me of a sore spot that I have.

01:11:16   I'm calling it Johnny Eye of design which is not fair because he's just the head of a large design

01:11:21   He's not designing all these things himself. He's not even like telling people how they should be designed

01:11:26   He has a team of people designing them presumably he approves them or disapproves or gives advice, but it's not all his fault

01:11:31   But can you imagine Johnny Ive sitting around like for like 90 days working on this brand new revolutionary design for a wireless router?

01:11:38   Well, but the thing is like people think that he's there and he designs everything so they come out

01:11:42   You know, it was his idea to make the the Mac a trashcan

01:11:46   It was his idea to design the I'm I get like and certain things are his idea

01:11:49   Like he has he has certain things that are his designs, but so many other things aren't he's got an entire team

01:11:55   but he's the figurehead and so

01:11:57   I'm blaming it all on him because you know the Bucks got to stop somewhere

01:12:01   When I look at this, I know exactly why the ports are that way on this thing or least so I tell myself

01:12:07   and you know because I just go into the mind of Johnny I've or the mind of his organization that he runs and

01:12:12   I've looked at all the products they've made over the years and and it seems clear to me that they're like they are that way

01:12:18   because it looks better that way. And this is the tension, aesthetics versus usability.

01:12:23   And the whole design is how it works thing makes it sound like that the balance is way over,

01:12:29   oh usability is the most important thing and aesthetics are secondary. But if you look at

01:12:34   any device that came out of the Johnny Ive apple, even in the pre-Steve Jobs era, that he had a hand

01:12:40   in designing or was ahead of the design studio when it was made, aesthetics is a huge part of

01:12:45   out is designed. And far be it for me to say that aesthetic shouldn't be a factor because then

01:12:49   everything will look like oxo good grips, right? Oh, I bet even then there's some aesthetics

01:12:53   creeping in there. But there's a balance between make it usable but also make it look nice,

01:12:59   but hopefully don't compromise on the usability too much for the sake of aesthetics. And I think

01:13:06   the "Johnny Ive" apple, if we're going to call it that, has crossed the line many, many times

01:13:10   and is stubborn about it and will not go back. And this, the back of the airport, looks like

01:13:15   a situation where they cross the line. Not a big deal, because all the people on Twitter replied,

01:13:19   said, "Oh, how often do you plug and unplug things? Who really cares? It's not so hard to

01:13:25   wedge your fingers in there. If they rotated them 90 degrees it would have been more expensive,"

01:13:30   and all sorts of other things like that. And I mostly didn't pursue these avenues,

01:13:36   except for the most expensive, more expensive one, so I looked at it, I immediately went to

01:13:39   the iFixit teardown to see what the heck was going on inside there. And that's in another link in the

01:13:43   notes. And it turns out that the ports, which should not be surprising to anybody who has seen

01:13:47   one of these towers or the new Mac Pro, the ports are already at 45 degree angles coming off of the

01:13:54   printed circuit board. So there are obviously expense is not this is not like what's the

01:13:59   cheapest way we can make these ethernet ports pop out of this board just solder them on. They're

01:14:03   already coming out at a 45 degree angle and they're coming out at a 45 degree angle with the contacts

01:14:08   running, I don't know how to explain this, the distance from each contact to the printed circuit

01:14:16   board is different. So the contact closest to you when you're looking at the printed circuit board

01:14:21   flat is much longer than the contact closest to the board because it's in an angle that way. If

01:14:25   they were rotated 90 degrees as suggested it seems to me that if anything it would either be the same

01:14:30   price or cheaper to mount them that way because then all the contacts from the Ethernet connectors

01:14:34   would have equal distances to the board. But who knows, maybe it's the same price. But the point

01:14:38   is this device was not designed with cost concerns.

01:14:42   If you look at how it was constructed,

01:14:43   it's kind of like the Mac Pro with the hard drive

01:14:46   on an angle in the middle with fins

01:14:49   and sort of a chimney type effect.

01:14:50   And it's a very fancy design.

01:14:53   It is not made to be the cheapest possible thing

01:14:55   to manufacture.

01:14:55   Inside it looks fairly expensive.

01:15:00   So I'm not gonna buy cost there.

01:15:01   You get back to, all right, so if it's not,

01:15:04   if a cost is not concerned, why are these things vertical?

01:15:06   And I really do think it looks better when they're vertical.

01:15:09   It's symmetrical.

01:15:09   If you were to divide the device in half vertically,

01:15:12   if you were to draw a straight line down the middle

01:15:14   of these ports and split it in half,

01:15:16   it's symmetrical on the right and left side.

01:15:17   Whereas if the ports were sideways,

01:15:19   the rest of the device would be vertically symmetrical,

01:15:21   but then the ports would not be.

01:15:22   One half would have the little flanges,

01:15:23   one half wouldn't have it.

01:15:24   And this is not that big a deal,

01:15:28   but it's emblematic of the line

01:15:32   that I think the modern Apple crosses many other times.

01:15:36   And I put a couple of examples,

01:15:37   other examples in the show notes

01:15:38   that I've complained about previously on the show.

01:15:41   The MacBook keyboards, this is a little bit economics too.

01:15:44   So you can throw Tim Cook under the bus for this one as well.

01:15:47   Why does the 15 inch and why did back in the day,

01:15:50   the 17 inch one have the exact same keyboard

01:15:52   as the smaller model?

01:15:53   Makes no sense.

01:15:54   There's no reason that the current 15 inch MacBook Air

01:15:57   can't have full size arrow keys.

01:15:58   Oh, there's a reason,

01:15:59   'cause they wanna use the same exact keyboard they do

01:16:01   on all the other MacBooks, and on the Airs for that matter.

01:16:05   There's an economy of scale there,

01:16:07   but it's also making the larger product worse,

01:16:11   most charitably to save money, and least charitably,

01:16:14   because if you put full-size arrow keys,

01:16:16   then the keyboard wouldn't be symmetrical anymore,

01:16:18   and it looks ugly.

01:16:19   So that's why it doesn't have full-size arrow keys,

01:16:20   'cause the little inverted T would be on one side,

01:16:22   but not on the other.

01:16:23   Or any sort of key-type arrangement

01:16:25   to try to get a reasonable inverted T in there

01:16:28   would necessarily bump out somewhere

01:16:30   or push some other keys around or otherwise be awkward.

01:16:33   Ports in the back of the iMac,

01:16:36   it's great being able to plug things

01:16:37   into the front of my old style tower Mac Pro,

01:16:39   even if I have to bend down a little bit for it.

01:16:42   Having ports accessible to you

01:16:43   when you wanna plug something in quickly is great.

01:16:45   The iMac has all the ports in the back

01:16:47   because it's prettier.

01:16:48   Every time you wanna plug and unplug something,

01:16:49   you gotta dig around back there.

01:16:51   It is not comfortable, it's not a good experience.

01:16:53   - That's actually one of the frequent annoyances

01:16:55   with the new Mac Pro is that there isn't,

01:16:57   I don't have two front USB ports anymore.

01:17:00   And I use those all the time on my old Mac Pro.

01:17:03   And the new one, if I want a USB port,

01:17:06   I need to turn the thing around and go to the back

01:17:08   and get fingerprints all over it.

01:17:09   And it's not nearly as useful as having them

01:17:12   right there on the front, but I recognize that

01:17:14   it would not look as good if it had USB ports

01:17:17   on the front side of it.

01:17:18   - Now that's a little bit of a size constraint too,

01:17:20   'cause that machine got so much smaller

01:17:21   that so many things become, oh, the answer is now

01:17:23   I have a breakout box.

01:17:24   And so you could have a little breakout USB hub

01:17:26   and stick that on your desk somewhere.

01:17:27   Like that's always the answer for that tiny little Mac Pro

01:17:29   Oh, you can't fit it inside and you can't fit it on but you can connect the cable to and then have a peripheral

01:17:35   I give it a little bit of an out for the size thing, but it's similar in

01:17:38   You're mentioning how weird it is to try to plug things into the back of it like are are the ports aligned?

01:17:45   Along a line that goes through the center of the Mac or are they I don't even know the answer to this you can tell

01:17:51   Me are they are the ports parallel to each other in the two rows or are they all?

01:17:57   perpendicular is the horizontal surface of the ports perpendicular to a tangent of the circle I

01:18:02   Don't think I know what you mean. However, the the the surface that the ports are on is curved with the case

01:18:08   Right, but what are the ports like are the two USB ports?

01:18:12   Parallel to each other if you were to extend lines out along the USB ports

01:18:17   Would they be parallel to each other or would they would they the lines intersect they would diverge?

01:18:23   Yeah, because they basically the two USB ports are pointed in different directions. Yeah, because they follow the curvature, right?

01:18:28   So you could make the two USB ports both exactly like flat and going forward instead

01:18:34   They both go towards the center

01:18:35   And so you have to sort of calculate the angle when you're plugging in back there

01:18:38   So your cables jut out of it at angles instead of driving out stream and all the ports feel the same too

01:18:42   which so you have like

01:18:43   You have to turn it around and look because all like all the ports are

01:18:46   Almost the same size and all feel the same like you have you have the four USBs and then the six thunderbolts right next to each

01:18:52   other. Everything's very close to each other. And so yeah, it's not made to be done blindly.

01:18:57   Someone in the chat room is saying that USB ports are parallel. We're all using the wrong

01:19:01   terms here. I'm visualizing the right thing in my head. But anyway, what we're saying is that if

01:19:05   you took that USB port and pushed it really, really hard and just tunneled through the device

01:19:09   in exactly the direction of the port, it would hit the center of the Mac Pro. And that's true for both

01:19:13   of the ports. And they would intersect. That's correct. Yeah. And if you plugged in two cables

01:19:17   to them that were not flexible at all, were just straight rods, they would form diverging lines.

01:19:21   Right, and so what we were saying for parallel was the other option they could have gone with is that the USB ports were exactly parallel

01:19:26   And if you were to extend cables out from them forever perfectly stiff, they would never hit each other

01:19:30   That's what we're talking about. Anyway, I don't know if that's a compromise for aesthetics

01:19:35   but you know

01:19:36   The ports in the back of the iMac stand out because the iMac is such a massive machine and it's supposed to be a home

01:19:41   Machine it's the type of thing that people might plug and unplug things in but they had to be hidden there

01:19:44   I was gonna pick the Mac cube

01:19:45   But that's kind of a low blow where the ports were not only on the back

01:19:50   but underneath on the back and it was super hard to get at those because it looked better and the final I put in there

01:19:55   was a

01:19:56   IOS 7 buttons, I mean that they got rid of the button outline because it looked nicer

01:20:00   But then it wasn't always clear whether something was a button or not

01:20:03   I'm not saying these are like fatal flaws and that or that they're always over this line

01:20:07   I'm saying there is a line and you have to decide where in that line you fall and I feel like my

01:20:11   opinion of good design is

01:20:15   closer to usability or at the usability side of the spectrum in that in the challenge in the

01:20:21   Tension between aesthetics and usability and I appreciate the aesthetics. I like that they are pretty but

01:20:26   I'm not just designing them in a lab and looking at plans and

01:20:30   Looking at the beautiful polished fingerprint free thing on a pedestal and saying yeah, my work is done

01:20:34   I'm using the things every day and that's where the aesthetics start to fade and

01:20:39   You know not so much because I don't want some ugly PC tower. Like I like the aesthetics. I like having beautiful things

01:20:44   on my desk. They make me feel better to have nice things like, I mean, Marker, you talked about looking at your little Mac Pro.

01:20:49   It makes you happy to have that thing there. But there's a line between that and usability.

01:20:55   It depends on how much do you value that niceness over difficulty of getting into ports.

01:20:59   And, you know, the other one I wanted to mention is the edges of the MacBooks,

01:21:04   where they used to be super sharp when they were unibody things, and you're not supposed to rest your wrist,

01:21:08   please, everybody, if you're resting your wrist on something when you type, do not rest your wrist.

01:21:11   But the bottom line is people do occasionally rest their wrists, and it was way too sharp

01:21:15   And why because it looked really nice it really did it looked very elegant, but there's a line there

01:21:20   It's like that mean they took the edge off in later models, so they said okay. Let's not quite make it that sharp

01:21:24   I still think it's a little bit over the line in terms of

01:21:26   It looks like a beautiful piece of sculpture

01:21:28   But it's not quite as pleasing to handle as it would be if it was a little bit more rounded over

01:21:32   But anyway, these are just a couple examples sure people come with their own. I just feel like this balance

01:21:37   That we have a difference of opinion if I ever got to interview Johnny I if this is all I would talk to him about

01:21:41   Is how do you manage the tension between?

01:21:43   Aesthetics and usability and why are you so wrong in all these cases?

01:21:47   We'll be a great interview. He would love it. Yeah, I

01:21:50   Think everyone else would love it at least no one ever talks to him about design

01:21:54   That's a shame like when they get interviews with them

01:21:56   They just talk to him in a way that he can speak in generalities. No one ever I mean, that's not an interview

01:21:59   That's why I'm a terrible interviewer like an interview is you let the interviewer talk about things

01:22:03   You don't have an axe to grind with them. But anyway yours is an interrogation. Yeah

01:22:06   Yeah, mine would be more of an interrogation style, less of an—yeah, this is why I don't

01:22:11   interview people. But anyway, I think I would enjoy it at least.

01:22:14   I think, honestly, most people would enjoy listening to an interrogation, but most people

01:22:19   would not enjoy being interrogated.

01:22:22   I think it would be a fruitful discussion, because I'm sure he has reasons behind all

01:22:25   these things, and it's not like one is totally wrong and one is totally right. It's just

01:22:28   where do we draw that line and why? And I mean, maybe I'm alone in thinking that I

01:22:33   is a little bit farther on the aesthetics

01:22:36   towards the aesthetic spectrum than I think most people are.

01:22:39   We all love aesthetics, we all love beautiful Macs,

01:22:41   we all love our beautiful iOS devices,

01:22:43   we obviously value aesthetics probably way more

01:22:45   than the average person we're willing to pay

01:22:47   all this money for,

01:22:47   like in just the hardware, the software, everything,

01:22:50   we place value on this, it's just that there is,

01:22:54   sometimes it just seems to go a little bit too far

01:22:56   in one little tiny area and you feel like

01:22:59   I would give up that little aesthetic flourish,

01:23:02   I would give up perfectly symmetrical ports

01:23:03   to just turn them 90 degrees.

01:23:04   Even if I don't unplug and plug these things,

01:23:06   the three times a year when I have to reach back there

01:23:09   to unplug something, it drives me nuts.

01:23:10   And I say, "Oh, Johnny,

01:23:11   "if you just could have rotated them 90 degrees."

01:23:13   I never look at the back of this thing anyway.

01:23:15   It would make life so much easier.

01:23:17   And he would be tasked with defending

01:23:19   the beauty of the symmetrical arrangement

01:23:22   of something that people don't look at

01:23:24   and doesn't give them as much joy as, say,

01:23:26   a super shiny Mac Pro does.

01:23:27   - Well, also like, "Oh, Johnny,

01:23:29   "could you maybe add more than three ethernet ports?"

01:23:31   like really on a top of the line wireless router.

01:23:35   - I don't think he's picking that.

01:23:36   I'm not gonna blame him for the number of ports.

01:23:38   - Well, but it's like, you know, like you have to,

01:23:39   and this is a part of design, you have to consider design

01:23:42   in practice, in real life, what people actually do,

01:23:44   applied design, right?

01:23:46   And the reality is, if you only have three ethernet ports,

01:23:50   a lot of people are going to ruin your awesome design

01:23:52   by putting a big fat ugly switch right next to it.

01:23:55   Similar thing with the Mac Pro, like,

01:23:56   if you don't build in enough stuff people use

01:23:58   or enough storage capacity or enough things,

01:24:00   enough capabilities, you're gonna have this beautiful metal cylinder sitting next to the

01:24:04   crappiest blue LED filled USB hub and 10,000 Thunderbolt enclosures and drive enclosures

01:24:11   and all this crap. That ruins the design. To me, that's actually a design flaw. If you're

01:24:18   making a design that doesn't account for real life and then in real life it will simply

01:24:22   become worse.

01:24:23   And see, when I think of these designers' desks, and I think this was even mentioned

01:24:27   in one of the Johnny Ives books, maybe about his desk or someone else, but when I think

01:24:29   of their desk, I think of them arranging their beautifully designed products in the number

01:24:34   and like, that they would buy special white ethernet cables to exactly fit this. They

01:24:38   would arrange just on their desk, they would just have their MacBook and they would probably

01:24:42   not even have a cable to a big display and maybe like these two beautiful little speakers.

01:24:46   What they would do is say, if this doesn't have enough ports and this doesn't have any

01:24:50   items, then I don't want it. Because having that item would destroy the aesthetic value,

01:24:56   not purity, but like just that that this is a beautiful arrangement and I

01:25:00   Would really like it if I could have an extra hard drive or more USB ports

01:25:03   But I do not want that feature enough to take an ugly USB hub and shove it on here

01:25:07   You know, I that's that's where they're drawing the line. They say maybe it would be nice to have more USB ports

01:25:12   But I'm willing to forego the USB ports to have a nicer desk arrangement and I make a different value judgment for my desk

01:25:19   I'm gonna say I would rather have the USB port despite the fact that I can't stand how ugly it is. Like you just said

01:25:25   And at that point, then you revisit,

01:25:28   and why does this have so few USB ports?

01:25:29   Or why does it have so few Ethernet ports?

01:25:31   Maybe that's a cost thing,

01:25:32   maybe that's a feature thing or whatever,

01:25:33   but those are the trade-offs.

01:25:34   Even the sides of a lot of the MacBooks,

01:25:36   you're like, hmm, this 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro

01:25:39   probably had room for one more USB port on the side,

01:25:41   and it would really make my life easier.

01:25:43   Again, you can't tell if that's cost-concerned

01:25:46   or space constraints inside there or whatever,

01:25:47   but some issues are more cut and dry,

01:25:49   and I think the keyboarder on the 15-inch

01:25:52   is probably my biggest issue.

01:25:55   Economics aside, this is an expensive piece of hardware,

01:25:57   giving me full-size arrow keys,

01:25:58   giving me a different keyboard.

01:26:00   - Well, although I can also see the benefit there of,

01:26:04   as a user, that all the keyboards

01:26:06   and all the Apple products are all the same keyboard,

01:26:08   like that, or they're close enough, rather, but--

01:26:10   - I'm rotating through my fleet of Apple devices.

01:26:12   How many laptops do people have?

01:26:14   I'm willing to say, when I'm on the 13-inch one,

01:26:17   I will use the compact keyboard.

01:26:19   When I'm on the 15-inch, I want the expensive keyboard.

01:26:21   Like, I mean, at that point,

01:26:22   why not just have all of your Macs have

01:26:23   whatever the smallest screen any of them have.

01:26:25   Because then your screen arrangement

01:26:27   will always be the same.

01:26:28   - Oh boy, all right.

01:26:29   We should probably end the show.

01:26:31   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:26:33   Igloo, Hover, and Lynda.com.

01:26:36   And we will see you next week.

01:26:38   (upbeat music)

01:26:41   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:26:46   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:26:48   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:26:51   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:26:56   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:26:59   It was accidental (accidental)

01:27:02   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:27:07   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:27:16   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:27:20   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-Racusa

01:27:28   It's accidental (It's accidental)

01:27:31   They didn't mean to (It's accidental)

01:27:36   Tech.com so long

01:27:40   Hey guys. Oh yeah, you're here. You're still here. Hi. Hi.

01:27:45   Show butts still up. That's amazing. I thought they said

01:27:48   it. I thought they said it died. I saw a message in the

01:27:50   chat room like an hour ago that said it was down. They're

01:27:54   crazy. Does it have any data in it or is it just like they're

01:27:58   empty? No, it's real. It's there, man. You don't give me

01:28:02   any respect. Alright, alright. I'm loading the page now but

01:28:05   I'm gonna see the word connecting in a really big font.

01:28:08   - You will no matter what.

01:28:09   - No, actually I'm just gonna see

01:28:11   the loading animation in Safari.

01:28:12   Safari does this to me occasionally

01:28:14   where I will try to load a page

01:28:16   and it makes me think that it thinks

01:28:18   the OS is out of file descriptors.

01:28:20   But I'm like, why is it waiting?

01:28:22   This site should be fast, why is it not opening?

01:28:25   And I know the system is not out of file descriptors

01:28:27   that would manifest in a different way,

01:28:28   but I've actually run into situations

01:28:29   where the system has been out of file descriptors

01:28:31   because I run local databases and that happens sometimes

01:28:33   if you don't adjust your kernel parameters.

01:28:36   And it'll just be sitting there.

01:28:37   And in the time that I'm waiting for the Safari page to load,

01:28:40   I will copy the URL out of the address bar,

01:28:42   go over to Chrome, make a new tab,

01:28:43   paste it in, load the web page.

01:28:45   Loads instantly.

01:28:46   I go back to Safari, and it'll still be waiting.

01:28:48   Anyway, now it says list is more.

01:28:50   The blue gradient in the Safari address bar

01:28:52   is about a little bit less than halfway.

01:28:55   I still see nothing underneath the little nav bar.

01:28:58   Still waiting for it to load.

01:28:59   You should restore your phone.

01:29:01   I agree.

01:29:02   I'm going to do it right now.

01:29:03   I'm going to take this text.

01:29:04   I'm going to go over to Chrome.

01:29:06   Paste in the URL, load it, it says connecting,

01:29:09   titles have loaded.

01:29:09   Boom, done.

01:29:11   Let me go back to Safari, see how it's doing.

01:29:13   Oh, it's finally loaded.

01:29:14   - Wow.

01:29:15   - People wonder why I run both Safari and Chrome all day.

01:29:18   This is why.

01:29:20   - So now that it has survived an entire show,

01:29:23   because even if it craps out now, I'm counting it.

01:29:25   - Is there a sort by votes?

01:29:28   - No, and that's exactly what I was about to say,

01:29:29   is I think the next step is sort by votes.

01:29:32   - Well, I mean, there's no sort by,

01:29:33   what's the point of the show bot

01:29:34   if there's no sort by votes?

01:29:35   Because I wanted to make sure the showbot could live John.

01:29:38   I wanted life to find a way.

01:29:41   Can I complain about the layout again?

01:29:42   Yeah, I don't know.

01:29:43   I, you can, because I don't remember.

01:29:45   I took notes on a couple of them and I did change it.

01:29:47   I like that.

01:29:48   They're not centered line anymore, but you have, you have a number.

01:29:52   Then sometimes you have a blue plus or minus thing that I can't

01:29:56   tell if it's a control or something.

01:29:57   Then you have a title, then you have author and time.

01:30:00   So the time fine, whatever author seems to work.

01:30:03   The titles are OK, a little bit close to votes, but I have no idea what's in the votes column.

01:30:07   I see a number in the blue.

01:30:09   What is the blue plus one sometimes there for?

01:30:11   It's to vote.

01:30:12   So this is the Johnny Ive again.

01:30:14   I could not tell these were controls, but because you made the text blue, I'm supposed

01:30:17   to surmise that this is a button.

01:30:18   I suppose I could mouse over and see the hand cursor as well, but that is not obvious to

01:30:23   me as a control at all.

01:30:24   So you'd rather see like an up arrow or something?

01:30:26   I don't know, something that looks like a control.

01:30:28   I mean, that's the challenge.

01:30:29   Like it used to be the way you made something look like a control is you drew a little puffy

01:30:32   fake 3D mound, you know, like you drew something that was raised or beveled or shaded or seemed to be raised, you know,

01:30:40   like you drew something that looked like you could press it in and then the iOS 7 thing is no, just change the text color

01:30:45   No border needed doesn't need to be raised doesn't need to be anything. That's fair

01:30:49   It looks like uh based on my list and i've not yet looked at Brad Schoetz's list

01:30:54   Uh laughing at your showbot with you has the most votes

01:30:57   Showbot lives is number one. No, it's not sorted. Oh god

01:31:01   (laughter)

01:31:04   - Can we go over the working show bot

01:31:05   and sort these titles somehow?

01:31:06   - Oh, man.

01:31:09   - You gotta have sorting.

01:31:10   What good is it if it's no sorting?

01:31:12   The first thing you do is sort by votes.

01:31:14   - No, the first thing you do is keep them.

01:31:16   Keep them away.

01:31:17   (laughter)

01:31:18   - Yeah, it's like a speed and correctness

01:31:20   and you went for speed.

01:31:21   - No, I went for the thing that doesn't self-destruct.

01:31:25   That's what I went for.

01:31:26   - Also, your program can be really fast

01:31:28   if it's not correct and your show bot

01:31:29   can be up all the time,

01:31:30   but if it doesn't have sort by titles,

01:31:31   the first thing that we want to use a showbot for.

01:31:34   It doesn't help.

01:31:35   Anyway, congratulations on its thing up.

01:31:37   Like I said, all, Zara Boogs.

01:31:38   I gotta go find that for you for the show notes.

01:31:41   - Oh no, it just died.

01:31:42   Oh no.

01:31:43   - Really?

01:31:44   - Yeah.

01:31:44   - Connecting, oh, that's it.

01:31:45   - It threw an error again.

01:31:49   - You were so close.

01:31:50   - I know.

01:31:51   Well, no, it still counts.

01:31:52   - Well, it didn't make it through the whole show.

01:31:54   We're not actually able to use the data.

01:31:57   - All right, just stall while I'm doing this.

01:31:58   I don't know what happened.

01:31:59   - It says basically I tried to do something on a socket

01:32:02   that apparently was not open.

01:32:04   Hold on.

01:32:06   - Oh my God, I've had a hell of a week.

01:32:08   - Oh, what's going on?

01:32:09   - I'm almost ready to ship.

01:32:11   - I was gonna say, sold to overcast.

01:32:13   - Wait, did you say you're almost ready to what now?

01:32:16   - Ship.

01:32:19   - Ah, okay.

01:32:20   - Yeah, ship or get off the pot, Marco.

01:32:22   - Exactly.

01:32:23   (laughing)

01:32:24   - Have you started potty trading yet?

01:32:27   Not you personally, but.

01:32:28   - No, I'm afraid of that.

01:32:30   - Speaking of, yeah, well,

01:32:31   it's one of those things that has to happen.

01:32:33   - Yeah, I know, it's out there.

01:32:37   - We schedule it for his 18th birthday.

01:32:39   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:32:40   Just hope he figures it out on his own.

01:32:42   - That tends not to work, from my experience.

01:32:44   - You know, I think what happened is,

01:32:46   I think it was a race condition where,

01:32:48   and actually Jeremy Banks has just put in a poll request.

01:32:51   God, I love open source.

01:32:52   Anyway, looking at it, not having seen what he said

01:32:55   in his poll request, it looks like there was

01:32:56   race condition where perhaps a socket disconnected

01:33:00   but it hadn't been removed from my internal list O sockets.

01:33:04   - Looking at the show bot that works again.

01:33:07   Take your co-host to work day is probably

01:33:09   is the number one that actually would be usable I think

01:33:12   and it isn't about the show bot being up

01:33:14   at the beginning of the show.

01:33:16   That system is not going to scale.

01:33:18   I like that a lot.

01:33:19   - What was that in reference to?

01:33:20   - You said it to Casey in reference to his

01:33:22   photo non-management technique.

01:33:24   - Yeah.

01:33:25   (laughing)

01:33:26   I mean, I guess if you never look at your photos, any system scales put them in the trash. I mean

01:33:30   If you never look at them even one time after you took them why bother even putting them into date organized photos

01:33:38   Yeah

01:33:38   I like the idea that you think you're gonna remember

01:33:40   like the year let alone the month or week that some memorable event happened and then you're gonna go to the you're gonna go right to

01:33:46   That folder and find the picture that you want. That is a fantasy scenario of a young person

01:33:50   I bet there's a lot of people who never look back at their photos

01:33:55   Yeah, they have an easy photo Mandarin scheme for them, right?

01:33:58   Beautifully rendered trash can in your dock. Well, that's that's kind of that's my my strategy

01:34:02   So I have one of these Fujitsu scan snap scanners that everybody bought five years ago. Well, I did too and

01:34:07   And so any kind of anything any paperwork I get in the mail

01:34:12   I scan it and then I you know, I deal with it I scan it and I shred it

01:34:15   So I have my I was I was really trying to like make this folder system where I'd organize

01:34:21   "All right, the electric bills all go in this folder

01:34:23   "and the gas bill all goes in this folder

01:34:25   "and everything else."

01:34:26   And I gave up on that within a couple of weeks.

01:34:29   And since a few weeks after I got this thing,

01:34:32   my system has been,

01:34:34   I just scan everything into one giant folder

01:34:36   and the file names are just timestamp based, just data.

01:34:39   - But it does OCR though, isn't the whole point

01:34:41   that it OCRs them so you can just type the name

01:34:43   of your gas or electric company in Spotlight and find them?

01:34:46   It doesn't OCR them?

01:34:47   - It doesn't by default and mine is the S510M.

01:34:50   It's a pretty old one, I think I got it in like 2007

01:34:53   or something, it's pretty old.

01:34:54   And the software it came with was very, very slow to OCR

01:34:59   and was this whole separate app that would launch

01:35:01   and that would quit.

01:35:02   And so it added too many steps to the process.

01:35:05   So I stopped doing that too.

01:35:07   Now I just have the images.

01:35:09   And my strategy is they all just get scanned

01:35:12   into this one giant folder sorted by date.

01:35:15   If I ever have to find something,

01:35:18   I just go and flip through and I flip the flip

01:35:20   with the up arrow key using quick look.

01:35:22   - Presumably the volume is lower there,

01:35:24   like the number of photos you take in a year

01:35:25   is lower than the number of bills you get in a year.

01:35:27   And that is where you're looking for years,

01:35:29   'cause when the IRS comes in and you want your stuff

01:35:30   from 2013, you want data organized,

01:35:32   everything from 2013, here you go.

01:35:34   - Right, but I'm saying it's a similar kind of thing

01:35:36   where it's mostly a write-only system.

01:35:39   It's write most of the time, read very occasionally,

01:35:43   and so writes need to be quick and simple,

01:35:46   and reads don't need to be that.

01:35:48   And so it's a similar kind of thing.

01:35:51   That's how most people, I think,

01:35:53   treat their photo library,

01:35:54   where you have to be able to just add to it

01:35:57   without any effort whatsoever.

01:35:59   Even if that comes at the expense of

01:36:01   if you wanna find some particular one,

01:36:03   it might take you a few extra minutes

01:36:05   because you haven't spent hours over the last few years

01:36:09   building up this giant system of metadata

01:36:11   and sorting and organizing.

01:36:12   - Well, someone said that actually the iOS 8

01:36:14   has a little heart on every picture

01:36:16   you can just tap kind of Instagram style to fave, right?

01:36:18   And I think the next step in that would be,

01:36:21   it could be that like,

01:36:23   not that I'm saying they have the wrong default,

01:36:24   but kind of in the messages where like in iOS 8,

01:36:27   you have to say that you wanna keep them.

01:36:29   What if it decided that if you didn't pay

01:36:32   for iCloud storage, it would slowly delete the ones

01:36:34   that you did in HART, you know, like your pictures.

01:36:37   I mean, I don't think that's the right thing to do,

01:36:38   but like, because so few pictures come out well

01:36:42   or ever need to be looked at again,

01:36:45   I bet most people's photo collections could be reduced by like 80% without any sentimental

01:36:50   loss because of just the huge volume of garbage pictures that people have in their collections.

01:36:55   And it's like, what they really care about is one or two or three good pictures of their

01:37:00   kid at every age that they were, or a particularly memorable event, but not the hundreds of pictures

01:37:04   that people end up taking, you know, just seven shots of the same person within a second,

01:37:11   especially with like burst mode stuff on like real cameras.

01:37:13   I mean real photographers have to discard that stuff because they can't keep all of

01:37:18   it forever and they just pick the one or two good ones.

01:37:19   A lot of the aperture work throw was about, they used to advertise like, "Oh, here's

01:37:23   how you can pick your seven good shots out of the 800 you took," right?

01:37:27   Regular people are not that severe, but that whole idea that you're going to take a lot

01:37:31   of pictures, most of them are going to be crap, put the little hearts in the ones that

01:37:35   you like, and that's your tool later for if you want to thin out your set of photos.

01:37:40   Ditch the ones with no hearts.

01:37:41   Oh yeah, I mean, just anecdotally, like the few times,

01:37:45   I'll occasionally be in the mood

01:37:47   to clean out my photo library,

01:37:48   and I'll go back and like,

01:37:49   I'll go back to whatever pictures from like a year ago,

01:37:53   and I'll find this tremendous folder,

01:37:55   and I'm like, why did I keep like 80% of these?

01:37:58   And I'll go through, and it takes like hours

01:38:01   to go through like a year worth of photos

01:38:02   and delete all the crap, the blurry ones,

01:38:06   the alternate takes that I ended up using a different one,

01:38:09   or that I took three different photos

01:38:11   the same thing and I picked the best one to use,

01:38:12   but I forgot to delete the other two.

01:38:14   And I can cut down a year of photos down by 80 or 90%

01:38:19   without really losing anything of value just by doing that.

01:38:22   But even that, most people don't even do that.

01:38:25   I hardly even do that, and I just talked about it.

01:38:28   Most people never do that.

01:38:29   - A great cross-site scripting attack

01:38:32   just popped up on Casey's Showbot.

01:38:34   - Which is funny because I literally just pushed the fix

01:38:37   to my website like two seconds ago.

01:38:40   So if you're--

01:38:41   A little alert just popped up that says,

01:38:44   page at www.caseyless.com says, you

01:38:46   should follow me on Twitter @jeremybanks.

01:38:49   I post rarely, so it won't hurt your stream much.

01:38:51   OK.

01:38:52   Good job, Jeremy Banks.

01:38:53   Not going to follow you, though, because your name

01:38:54   wasn't clickable, and it would take too much effort

01:38:56   to copy and paste it out of the dialogue.

01:38:58   Also, you just hacked Casey's poor showbot.

01:39:00   You're kicking a bot when it's down.

01:39:01   No, no, no.

01:39:02   He gets a buy because--

01:39:02   I don't think he hacked it.

01:39:04   Well, it was an issue.

01:39:05   It wasn't really a hack.

01:39:06   But he gets a buy because he's been actively trying

01:39:09   to fix these vulnerabilities rather than just find them in--

01:39:13   - Well, I'm assuming he just pasted JavaScript

01:39:15   into the titles and then you've just

01:39:17   beautifully rendered the JavaScript into the DOM

01:39:19   and whee, off we go.

01:39:20   (laughing)

01:39:21   - Exactly.

01:39:22   - Escaping, what's that?

01:39:23   - So we got slightly sidetracked.

01:39:26   So Overcast, you're pretty much ready.

01:39:28   What's the holdup?

01:39:29   - The holdup was, well, you know what the holdup was

01:39:31   'cause you're on the beta, but I basically had

01:39:34   a pretty sizable feature that I really decided

01:39:37   that I wanted to add last minute.

01:39:39   And so I probably, I had something that was almost 1.0

01:39:42   a few days ago, and then I realized, oh, you know what?

01:39:45   This feature I was gonna delay until sometime later.

01:39:48   I actually really wanna have it in 1.0.

01:39:50   So I bumped it up and I did that in a few days.

01:39:53   And so I basically only have,

01:39:56   I have probably two more betas to ship.

01:39:59   I have the next beta, which is gonna be

01:40:01   like the feature complete one.

01:40:03   And then after that is gonna be like the release candidate

01:40:07   in old Windows parlance.

01:40:09   Does anyone else still use like RC1, RC2,

01:40:11   or is that only an old Windows thing?

01:40:13   - It's still a Windows thing as far as I knew,

01:40:15   although I don't really keep up with that

01:40:16   very much anymore.

01:40:17   - Anyway, yeah, so that's where I am.

01:40:19   I'm like the build before release candidate,

01:40:23   probably going out in the next couple days,

01:40:26   release candidate probably going out later this week,

01:40:28   and then I'll probably submit next weekend

01:40:33   or early the week after that, I don't know.

01:40:36   I'm very, very close.

01:40:38   - Did you ever find that bug that someone reported

01:40:40   about the UI showing up gray, like tint color all gone?

01:40:43   - No, oh God.

01:40:44   - I've been experiencing it lately.

01:40:47   - Yeah, I should spend more time trying to find workarounds.

01:40:51   Yeah, there's a bug, you've probably,

01:40:53   if you've ever used an iOS 7 device,

01:40:55   you've probably run into this at least once,

01:40:58   maybe in mail or some other like standard app

01:41:00   that uses a tint color,

01:41:01   where the tint color gets stuck as gray.

01:41:05   'cause what happens is when there's an alert box popped up

01:41:09   or something like an alert box,

01:41:10   any kind of system mode will view like that.

01:41:12   UIKit usefully changes the tint color

01:41:16   on the background window to gray,

01:41:19   so that way all the controls that have this bright color

01:41:22   for their tint color fade into gray in the background

01:41:26   so they aren't loud and obnoxious

01:41:29   while you're looking at this alert box

01:41:30   that's in front of them.

01:41:31   And then when you cancel that box out,

01:41:35   then it goes and puts the color back.

01:41:38   The problem is it doesn't always put the color back.

01:41:41   And under certain conditions that I haven't quite

01:41:43   figured out, your tint color will get stuck at gray

01:41:47   and not all controls will update or it's a mess.

01:41:52   And it happens occasionally in overcast

01:41:55   and it drives me nuts.

01:41:56   - And it doesn't recover.

01:41:58   Like if it loses, if it misses that chance to do it,

01:42:00   like you can just hang out and use a gray UI for a while.

01:42:02   Like it's not gonna, unless you like,

01:42:03   mine is always, you know, waking it up from sleep.

01:42:05   So the only way to get it to get,

01:42:07   have a second chance of doing that is put it to sleep again,

01:42:09   go to another app, switch back to it,

01:42:10   see if it's, you know, switch back to orange.

01:42:13   - Yeah, this, it's driving me nuts.

01:42:15   And I can't, I can't figure out what to do about it.

01:42:18   I mean, 'cause I want that behavior.

01:42:20   I want the behavior of--

01:42:21   - Did you file a radar?

01:42:23   - No, actually, I don't think so.

01:42:25   I don't think so.

01:42:26   - The ghost of jury will haunt you now.

01:42:28   - It definitely seems like it's a UI kit,

01:42:30   bug and I could try to work around it,

01:42:33   but I'm not willing to do too much of a crazy hack

01:42:37   to do that.

01:42:38   That's one thing I decided early on with Overcast

01:42:41   and so far I've stuck to it for the most part.

01:42:44   With Instapaper, I would try to use crazy, crazy hacks

01:42:49   to work around limitations or bugs in UI kit,

01:42:52   usually limitations, usually not actual bugs,

01:42:54   but it was so hard to maintain

01:42:56   and it wasn't really worth it.

01:42:57   Like I would work around it to achieve

01:43:01   a certain transition or animation or feature

01:43:03   that you weren't supposed to be able to do in the API

01:43:06   or to try to mimic built-in Apple behavior

01:43:10   in a way that wasn't publicly exposed.

01:43:12   And it just was never worth it.

01:43:13   Even some of the big stuff like pagination.

01:43:16   Oh my God, pagination was such a pile of hacks

01:43:19   because until iOS 7, there was no API

01:43:22   to paginate a web view, so you had to do it manually.

01:43:24   And I did it a few different ways.

01:43:26   They all were horrible hacks.

01:43:27   they all worked, but they were all horrible hacks.

01:43:29   It really, it dramatically complicated the code

01:43:32   and it took tons and tons of time

01:43:34   to write and maintain all that.

01:43:36   And at the end of the day, it wasn't that big of a deal.

01:43:39   It wasn't that major of a feature.

01:43:40   I thought it would be and it really wasn't.

01:43:42   So with Overcast, early on, I decided,

01:43:45   I'm just going to avoid most of those things.

01:43:47   I'm using a lot of stock UI kit

01:43:49   with appearance customization,

01:43:50   but still, I'm not rewriting my own navigation controller.

01:43:54   I'm using the built-in stuff.

01:43:55   I'm hardly even doing custom transitions anywhere.

01:43:58   In fact, I don't know if I have any

01:43:59   custom transitions anywhere.

01:44:01   It's mostly UIKit stuff because, first of all, it's 1.0,

01:44:05   and I didn't wanna get too bogged down on all that stuff

01:44:07   because it turns out, turns out,

01:44:09   podcast apps have a lot of screens and stuff.

01:44:11   It's a lot more than I expected.

01:44:15   This is a much larger app than Instapaper.

01:44:18   That's one of the reasons it's taken me so long,

01:44:20   is that there is just so many screens

01:44:22   and so much functionality that needs to be built in

01:44:25   considered to get what I think most people would consider like the bare

01:44:29   minimum necessary function set of a modern podcast app and so it's just tons

01:44:35   and tons of code and interfaces and screens and designs and strings and

01:44:40   localization potential and and so I didn't want to also have this big pile

01:44:45   of hacks that would that would make all that more complicated and that would

01:44:50   take time that I needed to to do all this stuff in a reasonable amount of time.

01:44:54   People are asking if I ruined the surprise of your color scheme. You showed the gigantic

01:44:58   icon at XOXO like a year ago.

01:45:01   Yeah, and it's also on the Twitter bio and on the webpage. The webpage even has the font.

01:45:07   I mean, yeah, it's pretty obvious by looking at the preview page I have for it on the website

01:45:16   roughly what the app looks like. No big deal. Anyway, so that's where I am. I'm very close.

01:45:22   I recognize, by the way, that this is completely ridiculous to rush to ship an app now as opposed

01:45:28   to waiting for iOS 8.

01:45:30   And I've thought about this a lot because I'm going to require iOS 8 as soon as I possibly

01:45:35   can.

01:45:36   Pretty much as soon as it's out, I'm going to require it.

01:45:39   The reality is that's still a few months away probably.

01:45:41   We don't know exactly.

01:45:43   It might be September, it might be October.

01:45:45   That's still a few months out and I really want to ship before then.

01:45:50   I'm already embarrassed that it took this long.

01:45:53   I would have liked to ship months ago,

01:45:54   but oh well, I didn't.

01:45:56   Now I'm now at a shippable point.

01:45:59   So I don't see much of a reason to wait.

01:46:01   You know, I am gonna require eight immediately,

01:46:03   which means that there's gonna be the awkward phase of

01:46:06   I'm going to support the iPhone 4

01:46:09   and the old iPod touches for like two months.

01:46:12   And then I'm gonna cut off support for these people.

01:46:14   And that sucks, but I don't think there's a better way

01:46:17   to do that while also taking full advantage

01:46:20   of what iOS 8 offers.

01:46:21   So does that make sense?

01:46:23   - You've got that, you just, you explained in the beta thing

01:46:28   how you're handling that to not disappoint users, correct?

01:46:31   I don't want to reveal too much, but.

01:46:32   - Yeah, I mean, and I'm gonna anger people anyway.

01:46:35   I mean, like there's no question,

01:46:36   like people are going to be annoyed

01:46:38   that I have this app that supports these devices

01:46:42   and then like two months later,

01:46:44   I stop supporting those devices.

01:46:45   You know, that is going to annoy people,

01:46:47   but I'd rather get it out there sooner

01:46:49   And, 'cause right now, I haven't even started

01:46:51   iOS 8 stuff yet on it.

01:46:52   Like, I haven't written a single line

01:46:55   of iOS 8 code for it.

01:46:57   I'm not even using the iOS 8 SDK to build it.

01:46:59   I have the 8 SDK installed on my laptop secondarily,

01:47:03   but on my desktop that I'm doing my main development on,

01:47:06   I don't even have it installed yet.

01:47:07   I haven't written any Swift yet.

01:47:09   I haven't written, I haven't done anything

01:47:11   with 8's new APIs, I haven't done anything

01:47:13   with rotation or the size class stuff,

01:47:15   or you know, the stuff that replace rotation.

01:47:18   I'm delaying all of that.

01:47:19   until I ship the iOS 7 version.

01:47:21   And then after the 7 version ships

01:47:23   and is reasonably stable,

01:47:25   then I will start doing the 8 version.

01:47:28   And try to prepare it in time for 8 launch,

01:47:31   which I know it's cutting it close

01:47:32   and I might not make it quite on time.

01:47:34   - Well, you'll be spending all your time doing the,

01:47:37   making all the UI handle different size classes

01:47:39   for the bigger iPhones.

01:47:40   - Yeah, exactly, oh yeah, I mean that's totally, yeah.

01:47:42   'Cause that's, I don't intend to actually have

01:47:44   an extension or anything on day one of 8.

01:47:47   Mostly 'cause I'm not really sure what an extension

01:47:49   would be immediately.

01:47:51   There's obviously I could do an add to Overcast

01:47:54   kind of thing, but I wanna do that right.

01:47:57   And so I'm probably not gonna have that on day one.

01:48:00   I'm going to ship it soon is the very short version

01:48:02   of this very long story that goes nowhere.

01:48:05   - Now whenever you submit,

01:48:08   and you can choose not to answer this question,

01:48:10   but whenever you submit, are you going to hold release

01:48:14   for some big marketing push or just like a day or two

01:48:17   to get your stuff squared away and then let it rip?

01:48:20   - I'm going to set it on hold release,

01:48:22   but once it is releasable,

01:48:24   I don't think I would really hold it back

01:48:27   for much of anything unless,

01:48:28   like if Apple is gonna feature it,

01:48:31   they might ask me to hold it back till Thursday or whatever,

01:48:33   but I don't know if that's going to happen or not.

01:48:36   I would guess off the top of my head, probably not,

01:48:39   obviously, 'cause most apps don't get featured on launch.

01:48:41   Chances are I'm gonna have to release it

01:48:43   when I'm ready to.

01:48:45   So I wanna do something a little more on the website.

01:48:48   I wanna have a marketing page and the site,

01:48:50   so I'm gonna have to, while it's submitted,

01:48:52   I'm gonna have to write that.

01:48:53   And if that's not done, I might wait until it's done,

01:48:56   but I'm not gonna wait more than a few days.

01:48:57   - Do you need help thinking of three things

01:48:59   to put in the standard bootstrap-powered layout

01:49:01   of a product marketing page?

01:49:03   'Cause you know, you gotta have the icon,

01:49:05   and then you gotta have three boxes,

01:49:06   and it's like powerful, simple, orange.

01:49:09   That's my suggestion.

01:49:10   (laughing)

01:49:13   - That's fantastic.

01:49:13   - Yeah, no, I've actually, I've considered marketing

01:49:16   from the very beginning, and I have in my giant

01:49:19   task paper document that's kind of my to-do list

01:49:23   and forecast for this app, I've been considering

01:49:26   marketing the whole time, and so I've even considered

01:49:29   what features go into 1.0 or don't go into 1.0

01:49:33   based on how they support my overall strong

01:49:36   marketing points, and I know just talking about marketing

01:49:40   for developers is weird and sometimes even taboo,

01:49:43   but it shouldn't be because it's kind of stupid

01:49:46   not to consider these things.

01:49:47   And if you can consider these things,

01:49:48   and if you can play to your strengths, why not do it?

01:49:51   And so I have, I've been considering that very strongly

01:49:54   from the very beginning, and I'm pretty sure

01:49:55   what I'm gonna put in these.

01:49:56   It's just a matter of doing it.

01:49:57   And yes, this is a bootstrap site.

01:49:59   I'm not sure if I'm gonna do that same front page

01:50:02   everyone else does, but it's probably gonna have boxes

01:50:06   with features in them.

01:50:07   - And how's the review?

01:50:09   - Oh my god.

01:50:11   I mean, like, I think now finally I have the outline, like I have it all in my head of

01:50:16   what needs to be written, it's just, I need to write.

01:50:19   You know.

01:50:20   Actually, not true.

01:50:21   I, this, the Swift section I'm still trying to decide how I'm going to make it not be

01:50:27   ridiculous.

01:50:28   I'm trying to focus on a few things.

01:50:29   I have one of the things, sort of an idea of what I'm going to write there, and the

01:50:33   second one I'm just putting off for now, but the rest of the stuff I more or less know

01:50:37   what I'm going to write now.

01:50:38   thinking about like, should I bother taking screenshots?

01:50:42   Should I just wait?

01:50:43   Of course I can't do a lot of the testing

01:50:44   with the handoff stuff or if they're gonna support

01:50:46   the dark UI like they said they were gonna,

01:50:49   I just need to write, I need to plow forward bravely.

01:50:52   I got through the introduction though, so that's good.

01:50:55   - Hey, that's something.

01:50:56   - It is.

01:50:58   - Casey, how about that fast text update for iOS 7?

01:51:00   - I was really hoping you weren't gonna ask me that.

01:51:03   - I'm really going to beat you to shipping.

01:51:05   - Yeah, you are.

01:51:05   - He's putting all his time into the showbot,

01:51:08   Mark on and distracted.

01:51:09   Yep.