ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► I'll stall by saying the showbot is back.

00:00:03 ◼   ► - For how long?

00:00:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, probably not much longer.

00:00:06 ◼   ► There have been a few poll requests

00:00:08 ◼   ► from a couple different people who, as usual,

00:00:11 ◼   ► I don't have their names in front of me because I'm a jerk,

00:00:13 ◼   ► but we can all laugh together

00:00:16 ◼   ► when this goes down momentarily.

00:00:18 ◼   ► - Well, we're laughing with you, not at you.

00:00:21 ◼   ► - I think it's both, but I don't blame you.

00:00:23 ◼   ► - Laughing at your showbot with you.

00:00:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:27 ◼   ► - There's no known vulnerabilities left, right?

00:00:29 ◼   ► Uh, known and no, but I'm sure that they exist nevertheless.

00:00:33 ◼   ► So you read Zaro Boogs, you know Zaro Boogs?

00:00:36 ◼   ► Nope.

00:00:37 ◼   ► That's alright.

00:00:38 ◼   ► We can count that as the pop culture reference for the show if you'd like.

00:00:40 ◼   ► Because it's kind of pop culture, kind of programery.

00:00:42 ◼   ► I'll put it in the show notes and then you guys will know what it means.

00:00:45 ◼   ► Probably still won't.

00:00:48 ◼   ► Follow up.

00:00:49 ◼   ► Uh, last week, I think it was last week, we talked about Google's material UI that they

00:00:54 ◼   ► demoed at the Google I/O keynote.

00:00:57 ◼   ► And I mentioned that one of the things they showed in the keynote that I thought was neat

00:01:00 ◼   ► was that they want this UI to be the same on the web and on their phones.

00:01:06 ◼   ► And so they had a web version of it.

00:01:08 ◼   ► And this is a website.

00:01:10 ◼   ► I don't even know if it's an official Google website, but it's a website.

00:01:12 ◼   ► And you can go to it and view the web version of a lot of the controls that Google showed

00:01:18 ◼   ► in their presentation.

00:01:19 ◼   ► Did you guys check this site out, preferably in Chrome, I suppose?

00:01:22 ◼   ► I have it in Chrome right now, but I have not looked previously.

00:01:26 ◼   ► I'll click around in it and see what you think.

00:01:28 ◼   ► I mean, it looks like the stuff you saw up on the screen immediately on-- this was another

00:01:33 ◼   ► thing spawned from Twitter today because Don Lodzki sent me this on Twitter and then I

00:01:37 ◼   ► retweeted it and a bunch of other people responded and of course all the people who follow me

00:01:41 ◼   ► true to form jumped on the fact that you can't click on the labels to activate the checkboxes,

00:01:46 ◼   ► which is quite egregious, but in the web world it could just be that they didn't do the label,

00:01:51 ◼   ► you know, four equals ID of the checkbox thing.

00:01:54 ◼   ► Or these could be entirely custom controls, I haven't even looked at the source to see

00:01:57 ◼   ► if there's actually any HTML.

00:02:00 ◼   ► So anyway, I don't blame them for that.

00:02:01 ◼   ► Mostly what I'm looking at is, does this UI feel, for lack of a better word, snappy?

00:02:07 ◼   ► And I think it does, I think the animations are smooth.

00:02:10 ◼   ► Yeah, but they take too long.

00:02:12 ◼   ► Well yeah, but that's not a performance issue, that's like a decision, that's kind of like

00:02:16 ◼   ► in iOS 7 where I have the transition things turned off, even though they don't take any

00:02:19 ◼   ► shorter.

00:02:20 ◼   ► I have that for the zooming effect or whatever.

00:02:22 ◼   ► But anyway, that's like, they're deciding how long these things go.

00:02:25 ◼   ► It's not like they're taking too long because they're slow.

00:02:26 ◼   ► Well, and remember iOS 7.0, things did take too long.

00:02:30 ◼   ► In 7.1 they fixed it, well they improved it.

00:02:33 ◼   ► They tightened everything up and they said, "We made everything faster."

00:02:35 ◼   ► Which they did by, you know, tweaking two values.

00:02:37 ◼   ► But you know, Apple didn't really get those perfect either on step one.

00:02:41 ◼   ► There's still a few areas where there's like unnecessarily long animations in OS X and

00:02:46 ◼   ► in iOS.

00:02:47 ◼   ► Well, there's like, you know, like I mentioned with turning off the reduce motion or whatever

00:02:51 ◼   ► where it doesn't reportedly does not change the duration at all but it feels

00:02:54 ◼   ► faster because it's a crossfade instead of a zoom or whatever there's lots of

00:02:59 ◼   ► things you can do perception wise to handle that but this interface also

00:03:02 ◼   ► shows off the big honking like ripple effect thing so you can tell where you

00:03:08 ◼   ► clicked or the buttons having a ripple go across them I'm still not a fan

00:03:12 ◼   ► having clicked around in it but I am reasonably impressed with the

00:03:17 ◼   ► performance I wouldn't complain if I was clicking around on this like it doesn't

00:03:20 ◼   ► look like a native control, doesn't feel like a native control, but it doesn't feel

00:03:24 ◼   ► slow or clunky either. So it reduces all my complaints, not to technological ones,

00:03:28 ◼   ► but to design complaints, which I think is a reasonable achievement. Like if what

00:03:32 ◼   ► they're looking for is this should be exactly the same on the web and native. I

00:03:36 ◼   ► haven't tried the native one, but I can't imagine it being any more or less

00:03:40 ◼   ► responsive than this, so then you're just switch over to complaining about the

00:03:44 ◼   ► actual design decisions. But it looks to me like they've achieved reasonable

00:03:48 ◼   ► parity of performance between the platforms.

00:03:50 ◼   ► - You know, I don't like if you look at the buttons

00:03:54 ◼   ► and I'm looking at the raised button,

00:03:55 ◼   ► the colored raised button where the kind of ripple effect

00:03:58 ◼   ► is most obvious or at least as far as I can tell.

00:04:01 ◼   ► I don't like that it doesn't look like

00:04:02 ◼   ► you're depressing the button.

00:04:04 ◼   ► Like if you're gonna have a raised button,

00:04:06 ◼   ► it should get pressed when you tap it or click it.

00:04:10 ◼   ► - Right, if anything, because the shadow gets larger

00:04:12 ◼   ► as you tap it, so it looks like the button

00:04:15 ◼   ► being raised up off of the page for a moment, but it's not moving, so it just kind of looks

00:04:22 ◼   ► spatially wrong.

00:04:23 ◼   ► Yeah, the z-index thing is weird. Like, if I understand what Casey's saying about the

00:04:26 ◼   ► depress thing, but wouldn't that be like, wouldn't that change the z-value and then

00:04:31 ◼   ► like momentarily it would be putting—I don't know, I'm trying to figure out their friggin'

00:04:35 ◼   ► metaphor—but yeah, it is—this is what they've chosen to do. Like, you're not pressing the

00:04:39 ◼   ► button down, you're merely activating the button, and so a shimmer goes across the button,

00:04:44 ◼   ► the button does not move. It's kind of like those touch sensitive buttons, you guys probably

00:04:49 ◼   ► don't remember this but way back when on televisions my grandfather had one of these, they had

00:04:52 ◼   ► buttons on them that did not move in and out when you pressed them. They were like touch

00:04:56 ◼   ► sensitive buttons, it was like a metal ring with a metal contact in the middle and you

00:04:59 ◼   ► just touched them with your finger and it would activate to change the channel, but

00:05:02 ◼   ► they would not actually push down and these were both on the television and on the remote

00:05:05 ◼   ► and it was amazing technology in whatever year it was, 1986, but did not catch on for

00:05:11 ◼   ► for obvious reasons because people want buttons that press down, like the home button on your

00:05:15 ◼   ► iOS device.

00:05:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I think we're just, like this is the kind of thing, it's hard to tell in a demo

00:05:20 ◼   ► here, you know, in this artificially created demo on a webpage, which is not the intended

00:05:25 ◼   ► use of this. I mean, I know it's a way you can use these things, but it's, obviously

00:05:29 ◼   ► this is made for touch devices first. And, you know, this is the kind of thing where

00:05:33 ◼   ► we're, you know, we're just not going to be able to really know how good it is because

00:05:38 ◼   ► is none of us use Android full time.

00:05:39 ◼   ► But we got a few people complaining about the way

00:05:42 ◼   ► that we talked about Google last week.

00:05:44 ◼   ► And I think it's worth pointing out

00:05:47 ◼   ► and kind of telling ourselves as well,

00:05:49 ◼   ► like the world of tech is really big.

00:05:51 ◼   ► And no individual person or even small groups like this,

00:05:56 ◼   ► it's hard to get like good, adequate coverage

00:06:01 ◼   ► of everything in detail.

00:06:02 ◼   ► We like to talk about things in great detail.

00:06:04 ◼   ► We are all extremely focused, well for the most part,

00:06:07 ◼   ► but we are extreme nerds at least.

00:06:09 ◼   ► And so we will go into depth on crazy topics

00:06:14 ◼   ► to crazy levels of detail.

00:06:16 ◼   ► And that has to necessarily be at the exclusion of others.

00:06:20 ◼   ► It's like nobody can be an expert in all programming

00:06:23 ◼   ► because programming is massive.

00:06:25 ◼   ► Maybe in the '70s you might have been able

00:06:27 ◼   ► to become an expert in almost everything that was out there.

00:06:30 ◼   ► Now that industry is simply too large.

00:06:34 ◼   ► You can't be an expert in all programming

00:06:36 ◼   ► because there's more out there than you have time

00:06:40 ◼   ► to even look at or learn.

00:06:42 ◼   ► You know, you have to at some point reject certain things

00:06:46 ◼   ► implicitly just because you're choosing

00:06:48 ◼   ► to focus your attention on something in particular.

00:06:51 ◼   ► I don't think we should feel like we're barred

00:06:53 ◼   ► from talking about things that we aren't experts in.

00:06:56 ◼   ► Anything that sounded like we were doing that last week

00:06:58 ◼   ► was our mistake.

00:06:59 ◼   ► You know, I don't, I think I was doing

00:07:04 ◼   ► a pretty reasonable job of disclaimers and being humble

00:07:09 ◼   ► and giving the benefit of the doubt,

00:07:10 ◼   ► but that's been a very unpopular opinion of me recently.

00:07:13 ◼   ► Apparently I'm not doing that very well

00:07:16 ◼   ► in almost everything I do.

00:07:18 ◼   ► So I don't know if it's my problem

00:07:21 ◼   ► or everyone else's problem.

00:07:22 ◼   ► It's probably some of both, honestly.

00:07:24 ◼   ► But we can't be expected to be experts on everything

00:07:29 ◼   ► and we don't need to give everything equal time.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And I think that's very important for all of us,

00:07:35 ◼   ► both us and the audience, to understand

00:07:38 ◼   ► and to be on the same page

00:07:39 ◼   ► and to be in the same parking lot about.

00:07:41 ◼   ► We, am I using that right?

00:07:44 ◼   ► - No, that's okay. - We need to drive

00:07:45 ◼   ► into the parking garage, level two.

00:07:47 ◼   ► - Oh my god. - And maybe,

00:07:50 ◼   ► and get one of those little tickets

00:07:51 ◼   ► that you pay on the way out.

00:07:53 ◼   ► - We need to have take your co-hosts to work day

00:07:56 ◼   ► with you and me. (laughing)

00:07:59 ◼   ► Just see how long you'll last.

00:08:02 ◼   ► How long until your co-host gets fired from the job you didn't even have?"

00:08:07 ◼   ► I think it's simpler than Marco.

00:08:09 ◼   ► I think you're looking too deeply within yourself to figure this one out.

00:08:13 ◼   ► It probably comes down to talking negatively about something that it's clear that you

00:08:18 ◼   ► don't know a lot about.

00:08:20 ◼   ► And that's the easy attack for people who are sort of on that team, is that "I don't

00:08:24 ◼   ► like you saying bad things about the thing that I like.

00:08:26 ◼   ► And by the way, you also don't know as much as I do about the thing that I like.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Therefore, you're stupid for saying

00:08:32 ◼   ► that you don't like the thing that I like.

00:08:34 ◼   ► Which may be true.

00:08:35 ◼   ► Maybe if you knew it better, you would like it better.

00:08:37 ◼   ► But just as easily, it could be that you

00:08:39 ◼   ► know enough about it to know that you don't like it.

00:08:41 ◼   ► And that's just an easy avenue of an attack.

00:08:43 ◼   ► So when you dismiss Android, or I call Android phones crappy

00:08:48 ◼   ► or whatever, if you're on the Android team

00:08:50 ◼   ► and you care whether other people like Android, which

00:08:53 ◼   ► is some other thing in and of itself,

00:08:54 ◼   ► then you're going to say, well, if you just knew it better.

00:08:57 ◼   ► That's the nice way to say it.

00:08:58 ◼   ► And the unkind way to say it is, you guys

00:08:59 ◼   ► nothing about Android, you should not talk about Android because if you, you know, you

00:09:03 ◼   ► say bad things about it, but it's clear that you guys don't even have Android phones, so

00:09:08 ◼   ► stop talking about it. But that stuff doesn't bother me because the people who are on teams,

00:09:12 ◼   ► like the partisans, the people who care, whether other people like Android stuff or Apple stuff

00:09:17 ◼   ► or anything like that, there's a million of those, you're not going to change those people.

00:09:21 ◼   ► What you do want to be is fair to the stuff, like, and not because anyone's on any particular

00:09:26 ◼   ► but you don't want to misrepresent anything.

00:09:27 ◼   ► And I think the criticism that we got that I think was not fair,

00:09:32 ◼   ► but it was coming from a good place, was that we didn't, for instance,

00:09:36 ◼   ► mention that Android has more market share than Apple.

00:09:39 ◼   ► And we didn't mention that because we assume everybody already knows that,

00:09:43 ◼   ► not because we don't know it and not because we're trying to deny it.

00:09:46 ◼   ► But I can understand if you're coming at it, not having that background and sort of,

00:09:49 ◼   ► you know, if you don't share those assumptions with us,

00:09:51 ◼   ► then you could say they're misrepresenting Android,

00:09:54 ◼   ► and making it seem like it is the inferior, lower selling phone platform.

00:09:59 ◼   ► In reality--

00:10:00 ◼   ► - Which we never said.

00:10:01 ◼   ► - I know, exactly, but it's like we all know what we know,

00:10:03 ◼   ► and a lot of our regular listeners know what we know.

00:10:05 ◼   ► But if you're a new listener, you may be thinking,

00:10:07 ◼   ► these guys are making it seem like Android is the loser,

00:10:09 ◼   ► when really Android has the biggest market share.

00:10:11 ◼   ► I try not to get too bogged down on those things.

00:10:13 ◼   ► Anyway, most people were just yelling at Marcos,

00:10:15 ◼   ► like, I just go onto the next email at that point.

00:10:17 ◼   ► - Well, I think it's a topic worth addressing,

00:10:19 ◼   ► because it's going to keep coming up here and there,

00:10:21 ◼   ► up here and there where, you know, somebody gets upset that we didn't cover X, Y, or Z,

00:10:25 ◼   ► or that we didn't consider their team when discussing topic X because we covered somebody

00:10:31 ◼   ► else's team and they perceived that as a slight to them. And it's worth a disclaimer that when

00:10:37 ◼   ► we talk about Android, none of us use it. But I don't think that removes our ability to talk

00:10:43 ◼   ► about it intelligently. I think it's something we have to consider when we're talking about it

00:10:47 ◼   ► intelligently, but I think we usually have.

00:10:49 ◼   ► We shouldn't be afraid to talk about it

00:10:51 ◼   ► or, you know, banned by our audience from talking about it

00:10:55 ◼   ► as long as we keep that in mind.

00:10:56 ◼   ► As long as we keep in mind, you know, none of us use it,

00:10:58 ◼   ► so we can't really say in great detail about these things,

00:11:01 ◼   ► but it is a major force in our market,

00:11:03 ◼   ► and it would be, it would almost be stupid

00:11:07 ◼   ► and negligent of us not to ever talk about it.

00:11:10 ◼   ► - So this discussion has given me time

00:11:11 ◼   ► to right-click on that little demo page,

00:11:13 ◼   ► and I do not see an input HTML element

00:11:15 ◼   ► anywhere inside on that checkbox.

00:11:17 ◼   ► It's all div, Canvas style, which is fine.

00:11:20 ◼   ► Like I was just wondering if they had tried

00:11:23 ◼   ► to use the actual HTML elements and then enhance them.

00:11:26 ◼   ► Maybe they have, because I didn't expect element.

00:11:27 ◼   ► I don't know what was in the source code

00:11:28 ◼   ► before the JavaScript got ahold of the DOM,

00:11:30 ◼   ► but when the JavaScript was done with it,

00:11:32 ◼   ► all I'm left with is a div soup and some Canvas elements

00:11:35 ◼   ► and some inline styles.

00:11:36 ◼   ► So that's some crazy stuff.

00:11:38 ◼   ► - I like the slider.

00:11:39 ◼   ► I like the 3D when you grab the little,

00:11:41 ◼   ► what do you call that?

00:11:42 ◼   ► Not a nubbin, but the thing or handle, whatever.

00:11:45 ◼   ► - Thumb.

00:11:46 ◼   ► - Thumb, that's what I was looking for, thank you.

00:11:47 ◼   ► Anyway, when you grab the thumb,

00:11:49 ◼   ► I think it's a little too much zoom.

00:11:51 ◼   ► I think it comes at you a little bit too much,

00:11:53 ◼   ► but I like-- - Whoa.

00:11:54 ◼   ► It's not coming at you, it's getting bigger.

00:11:55 ◼   ► If it came at you, the shadow would increase.

00:11:56 ◼   ► Go to the Z-index thing at the bottom, like shadow thing,

00:12:00 ◼   ► it shows distance, you know, the Z-index.

00:12:01 ◼   ► So the thumb is actually getting bigger.

00:12:04 ◼   ► - Okay, well, either way.

00:12:05 ◼   ► And I also like that it becomes colorless at the left edge,

00:12:09 ◼   ► although I do think if you're gonna do that game,

00:12:11 ◼   ► it should be more of a gradient

00:12:13 ◼   ► as you come across the slider.

00:12:16 ◼   ► But no, there are definitely some good ideas here.

00:12:18 ◼   ► It feels a little unnatural

00:12:20 ◼   ► because it looks different than a lot of things.

00:12:22 ◼   ► I think mostly like this layout

00:12:23 ◼   ► where you've got that page card thing

00:12:27 ◼   ► that kind of goes over the header

00:12:28 ◼   ► that feels weird and different and uncomfortable,

00:12:31 ◼   ► but I think it's just because it's different,

00:12:33 ◼   ► not because it's bad.

00:12:34 ◼   ► - Well, it's in a webpage.

00:12:35 ◼   ► Like imagine it on a phone.

00:12:36 ◼   ► Imagine that you were using this on a phone

00:12:38 ◼   ► and one app was a web app

00:12:40 ◼   ► because the whole thing with Google's,

00:12:42 ◼   ► with their new OS is they're trying to, you know,

00:12:44 ◼   ► tabs are mixed in with apps in your task switcher

00:12:46 ◼   ► and everything in a way that's supposed to blur the line

00:12:48 ◼   ► between what is a mobile website and what is an app.

00:12:51 ◼   ► And so if you were using a Google app that used this UI

00:12:54 ◼   ► that happened to be a web app

00:12:55 ◼   ► and using a Google app that happened to be native,

00:12:57 ◼   ► they want them to look and feel the same.

00:12:59 ◼   ► And I mean, if the whole rest of the OS looks like this,

00:13:02 ◼   ► you'll get used to it.

00:13:03 ◼   ► And then if you happen to use a little mobile web app

00:13:05 ◼   ► like this, it won't be as shocking as it is

00:13:07 ◼   ► for us to load this up, you know, on our Macs

00:13:09 ◼   ► in a little demo thing inside a Chrome window.

00:13:13 ◼   ► Well, or it'll be like an uncanny valley problem,

00:13:15 ◼   ► where it'll get-- it's like when all those sites-- I mean,

00:13:17 ◼   ► obviously we're way more advanced on this these days.

00:13:20 ◼   ► But when all those blog templates and everything

00:13:22 ◼   ► started making-- when the iPhone first came,

00:13:24 ◼   ► I started making mobile layouts that looked like an iPhone

00:13:27 ◼   ► navigation controller.

00:13:28 ◼   ► And so it would have the big gradient bar, which of course

00:13:31 ◼   ► aged really well.

00:13:34 ◼   ► But they did not perform like it.

00:13:36 ◼   ► They had to do the simulated JavaScript scrolling way back

00:13:39 ◼   ► because they couldn't even do the real, you know, GPU-accelerated scrolling.

00:13:42 ◼   ► But yeah, even when they did like a navigation where you'd hit an element, it would try to do a slide,

00:13:46 ◼   ► it was all stuttery, like, that was not fooling anybody.

00:13:48 ◼   ► I would like to see actually a blind test between,

00:13:51 ◼   ► "You tell me, is this a web page or is this a native app?"

00:13:54 ◼   ► I guess you'd start with something simple as just like this, like a control gallery.

00:13:57 ◼   ► So someone makes a native app on Google's new operating system with these controls,

00:14:01 ◼   ► and then someone makes the web equivalent, and doesn't tell you which is which,

00:14:04 ◼   ► and you have to fiddle around with them and guess, like, two devices, which one is the web one, which is--

00:14:08 ◼   ► That would be interesting.

00:14:09 ◼   ► That's the true test, I suppose.

00:14:11 ◼   ► - That's the Pepsi challenge?

00:14:12 ◼   ► - ABX testing.

00:14:13 ◼   ► - You have to take it serious.

00:14:16 ◼   ► Anything else on this?

00:14:18 ◼   ► - I share everyone else's opinion for the most part,

00:14:19 ◼   ► that it looks on first glance

00:14:22 ◼   ► to have way too much animation,

00:14:24 ◼   ► but again, we'll have to see how that plays out.

00:14:27 ◼   ► - All right.

00:14:28 ◼   ► Do we wanna go through this biomedical follow-up stuff?

00:14:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think we should,

00:14:34 ◼   ► before Apple comes out with an iWatch

00:14:35 ◼   ► and then becomes less relevant.

00:14:37 ◼   ► Plus, we just got to clear out the space out of our document.

00:14:39 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:14:40 ◼   ► Yeah, so this we got feedback a while back

00:14:42 ◼   ► when we were talking about wearables, probably before WWDC.

00:14:46 ◼   ► The first bit is from a biomedical engineer

00:14:48 ◼   ► named Ben Griffell.

00:14:49 ◼   ► And the second bit is from a doctor named--

00:14:53 ◼   ► oh, god, I'm not even going to do this one.

00:14:55 ◼   ► One of you sacrificed yourself.

00:14:56 ◼   ► Not it.

00:14:57 ◼   ► He actually put it in his email, try and pronounce that.

00:15:00 ◼   ► So he's just taunting us.

00:15:01 ◼   ► And we do not live up to his challenge.

00:15:04 ◼   ► His first name is-- the first name is P-E-R.

00:15:07 ◼   ► I'm going to go with per.

00:15:08 ◼   ► And his last name has a capital O with two dots on top of it,

00:15:11 ◼   ► and then it just goes on from there.

00:15:12 ◼   ► I'm going to say perostegren.

00:15:14 ◼   ► I think that sounds reasonable.

00:15:16 ◼   ► That's accurate enough.

00:15:17 ◼   ► It's probably not that far off.

00:15:18 ◼   ► So the biomedical engineer was responding

00:15:20 ◼   ► to our questions several shows ago about,

00:15:23 ◼   ► what do you need to get vitals from people?

00:15:26 ◼   ► What kind of hardware do you need?

00:15:30 ◼   ► And he says, getting a good heart rate

00:15:32 ◼   ► requires at least two sensor attachments to the body.

00:15:35 ◼   ► I actually saw someone running with one of those you receive one of those bands that goes around your chest

00:15:38 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, like forgetting your heart rate. I assume that's a similar thing where it has two sensors

00:15:42 ◼   ► Otherwise, why would it wrap around your whole body?

00:15:44 ◼   ► So having it having just the wrist thing might not be great for that and

00:15:50 ◼   ► Oxygen saturation he says it's feasible with current tech

00:15:55 ◼   ► but like the other person whose name I'm not going to pronounce again is

00:16:01 ◼   ► His main issue is what do you do with this information assuming you even can collect it and the doctor's opinion is that?

00:16:09 ◼   ► When dealing with any of this data you're faced with a couple problems one is that most people's vitals are

00:16:14 ◼   ► Stay within a reasonable range assuming they're healthy so it's not that interesting data if you were to chart it

00:16:19 ◼   ► There's not like you're gonna see big fluctuations because if you do you should probably be in the hospital because it's not you know

00:16:24 ◼   ► Certain things like blood oxygenation should not be radically out of bounds

00:16:28 ◼   ► He says that your pulse at oxygen level and blood pressure should only vary within a few percent.

00:16:34 ◼   ► So this is a boring graph, so I assume you could zoom in on the axes and exaggerate the differences.

00:16:38 ◼   ► But he says, "When dealing with data points in my work, context is everything.

00:16:42 ◼   ► Is that pulse rate normal or not? Depends on the context.

00:16:44 ◼   ► Same goes for with fever, blood pressure, etc.

00:16:46 ◼   ► Taken out of context, there is nothing to analyze."

00:16:48 ◼   ► And the whole idea is that the most important thing that doctors do is get a context for these readings,

00:16:54 ◼   ► and the numbers in isolation without a trained doctor to look at them are meaningless.

00:16:58 ◼   ► certainly meaningless to like an untrained person

00:17:00 ◼   ► just looking at these numbers

00:17:01 ◼   ► and trying to know what this information is.

00:17:05 ◼   ► So I mostly agree with all of this.

00:17:09 ◼   ► And a lot of people in the medical field

00:17:11 ◼   ► are nervous about this stuff ever being used

00:17:13 ◼   ► for anything remotely approaching medical purposes.

00:17:15 ◼   ► Like I'm sure these things

00:17:16 ◼   ► will have to come with these glammers.

00:17:17 ◼   ► Like this is not for you to self-diagnose.

00:17:20 ◼   ► This is not telling you whether you're sick or healthy.

00:17:23 ◼   ► This is not telling you whether you should or shouldn't

00:17:25 ◼   ► go to the doctor or the hospital.

00:17:26 ◼   ► like, I don't know, for entertainment purposes only,

00:17:29 ◼   ► like Fitbit, you know, like Fitbit is safe

00:17:32 ◼   ► 'cause it's, you know, steps and not even really steps,

00:17:34 ◼   ► just how many times the Fitbit has wiggled

00:17:36 ◼   ► in a step-like manner.

00:17:38 ◼   ► And that's kind of like gamified,

00:17:39 ◼   ► but once you start getting into things

00:17:40 ◼   ► and start looking like things

00:17:42 ◼   ► that you might measure in a hospital,

00:17:44 ◼   ► I guess Apple or any other company that does this stuff

00:17:46 ◼   ► has to be careful in saying,

00:17:48 ◼   ► "This information is not diagnosing you with anything.

00:17:51 ◼   ► It is not a doctor.

00:17:52 ◼   ► Consult your doctor before blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

00:17:54 ◼   ► I think all of that is true.

00:17:56 ◼   ► I also think there is a reasonable,

00:18:00 ◼   ► entertainment-only, gamified version of this

00:18:02 ◼   ► that could come into being.

00:18:03 ◼   ► And long-term, for people who do have chronic illnesses

00:18:06 ◼   ► and stuff, you would imagine,

00:18:07 ◼   ► like there we show this in the demos from the '80s and '90s,

00:18:09 ◼   ► and I'm sure they're doing it today with a million devices

00:18:11 ◼   ► that people will email us about.

00:18:12 ◼   ► But if you have a chronic condition

00:18:14 ◼   ► that requires monitoring,

00:18:16 ◼   ► having technology to have a device

00:18:18 ◼   ► that does monitor this information

00:18:19 ◼   ► and relays it to your actual doctor

00:18:21 ◼   ► so that you can have sort of, not 24/7 care,

00:18:24 ◼   ► but like redundant monitoring by health professionals

00:18:27 ◼   ► of your actual vitals, because as part of some condition.

00:18:31 ◼   ► Like you can imagine, imagine if there was a way

00:18:33 ◼   ► to constantly get your blood sugar level

00:18:36 ◼   ► for people with diabetes without pricking your finger.

00:18:38 ◼   ► You just put on this wrist strap

00:18:40 ◼   ► and then like your doctor would automatically have,

00:18:43 ◼   ► or like an entire medical staff somewhere

00:18:45 ◼   ► would automatically have your blood sugar

00:18:47 ◼   ► and could notify you when you're overdoing it

00:18:50 ◼   ► and remind you to, you know, take your insulin shot

00:18:52 ◼   ► before you go off to bed or whatever.

00:18:54 ◼   ► That's like the future world technology

00:18:55 ◼   ► they always show up for remote medicine.

00:18:57 ◼   ► And I suppose the silly entertainment stuff like Fitbit

00:19:00 ◼   ► is like a little miniature step along the way to that.

00:19:03 ◼   ► But anyway, it was mostly a pessimistic view of this stuff

00:19:07 ◼   ► that from the medical professionals,

00:19:10 ◼   ► they think it's not as useful as the fantasy scenarios

00:19:15 ◼   ► make it out to be, and I'm inclined to agree with them.

00:19:18 ◼   ► - Well, maybe this would provide context to a doctor.

00:19:21 ◼   ► I think you're right in that it could never be used for serious medicine.

00:19:26 ◼   ► But maybe you could say, maybe this app or the health kit or whatever could say, "Well,

00:19:33 ◼   ► your heart rate generally falls between this and that and right now it's at two beats

00:19:38 ◼   ► per minute so you might be dead."

00:19:40 ◼   ► And so maybe it will provide that context that you wouldn't have otherwise had because

00:19:45 ◼   ► you don't normally walk around with a heart rate monitor strapped to your body.

00:19:49 ◼   ► Oh yeah, this last bit that I wanted to get to, and anyone who has spent any time in a

00:19:53 ◼   ► hospital recently or ever recognizes that, like, talking about the existing automated

00:19:59 ◼   ► devices in hospitals for tracking vitals, and how many of them have warnings or alarms

00:20:05 ◼   ► that go off, and how often those warnings or alarms mean anything.

00:20:08 ◼   ► On TV shows, they always mean something.

00:20:09 ◼   ► When the little buzzy beepy thing goes off, doctors run around and it's something serious

00:20:12 ◼   ► and the dramatic music starts playing.

00:20:14 ◼   ► In actual hospitals, the stupid buzzy warning things go off all the time, and the staff

00:20:18 ◼   ► there knows whether it's serious or not and there's tons of false positives and

00:20:22 ◼   ► the thing that differentiates a false positive from time for doctors to run

00:20:25 ◼   ► around with their heads you know on fire is the trained medical professionals who

00:20:30 ◼   ► know what can be disregarded and what can and what's an equipment

00:20:33 ◼   ► malfunction and what's the sensor that just slipped off and what's a serious

00:20:35 ◼   ► situation you know and like I said I don't spend a lot of time on hospitals

00:20:39 ◼   ► but I spent enough time to know that BP things going off in the beginning started

00:20:44 ◼   ► freaking you out until you realize that BP things go off all the time and only

00:20:47 ◼   ► some small percentage of the time doesn't mean anything and when it does mean something hopefully

00:20:51 ◼   ► you know the doctors and nurses are on it but the rest of the time the doctors and nurses are

00:20:56 ◼   ► resetting the thing turning the thing off recalibrating the thing reattaching something and

00:21:00 ◼   ► that just goes to show how much of humans are a factor in this stuff and how little

00:21:05 ◼   ► automated devices even hospital-grade automated devices can do on their own.

00:21:09 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by our returning friends igloo the internet that you will actually

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00:21:22 ◼   ► Is there a market for somebody coming along to make an intranet that's good because,

00:21:27 ◼   ► you know, it kind of implies that other intranets are terrible. Would you generally say that's

00:21:32 ◼   ► the case?

00:21:33 ◼   ► Would you say there's a market for an iPod, a phone, and an internet communicator all

00:21:40 ◼   ► in one?

00:21:41 ◼   ► Well, I mean, a PC guy's not just gonna come in here and take the market. They're not

00:21:44 ◼   ► just walk in. Right, naturally. But if you are Igloo, you could just walk in and take

00:21:49 ◼   ► the market. Turns out most internets are terrible and Igloo is awesome. And that's actually

00:21:55 ◼   ► a really good business model. You know, go find something terrible and make an awesome

00:21:58 ◼   ► version. Anyway, Igloo has a super exciting release coming this summer called Unicorn.

00:22:03 ◼   ► Now we've talked about this before. A couple months ago, or a month ago, we told you about

00:22:08 ◼   ► Unicorn a little bit. So just to recap, Unicorn has a ton of new features. But the best is

00:22:13 ◼   ► integrated task management that will change how you stay on track with work.

00:22:17 ◼   ► Igloo tasks can be assigned in different ways depending on the work you're doing.

00:22:21 ◼   ► One of the coolest ways to use tasks is creating them directly on your content.

00:22:25 ◼   ► Why do you need this? So for instance when requesting updates on a graphic or

00:22:29 ◼   ► a text correction on a Word document, you can create these

00:22:34 ◼   ► tasks right on your content so you and your team stay up to date with what has

00:22:38 ◼   ► to be done next. When you're viewing content even if it's a blog, event, or

00:22:43 ◼   ► forum topic inside your igloo, because igloo can do all those cool things, these tasks are right

00:22:47 ◼   ► there informing everyone if all tasks have been completed or if it needs additional work. You can

00:22:52 ◼   ► assign these tasks to yourself or a teammate, comment on the tasks, and keep all of your

00:22:56 ◼   ► changes in one place. And when you're the one who's been assigned a task, all your tasks show

00:23:01 ◼   ► up in a unified dashboard within your igloo, with due dates clearly marked, making it super simple

00:23:06 ◼   ► to manage your day-to-day work and clarify your priorities. Man, I want to throw a parking lot

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00:23:20 ◼   ► Once again, that's igloosoftware.com/atp.

00:23:24 ◼   ► Thank you very much to Igloo for sponsoring our show

00:23:26 ◼   ► once again, good people over there.

00:23:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, they're very good people over there.

00:23:29 ◼   ► Up there, I guess I should say.

00:23:30 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, yeah, they're up in the great white north, right?

00:23:33 ◼   ► - Indeed.

00:23:34 ◼   ► Aperture and iPhoto are dead

00:23:37 ◼   ► and being replaced by iCloud Photos.

00:23:40 ◼   ► Any thoughts on this from somebody who actually pays attention to photography,

00:23:43 ◼   ► which I am not that person.

00:23:44 ◼   ► What do you guys use? Let's start with that.

00:23:47 ◼   ► I used in the past, I, uh, I photo occasionally,

00:23:52 ◼   ► but I felt like even for my photo collection pre children,

00:23:56 ◼   ► although it goes back to like 2002 or something like that, um,

00:24:01 ◼   ► it was really slow, like really, really slow.

00:24:04 ◼   ► And so I tried to buy into using that as my photo management

00:24:09 ◼   ► application and then it took me all of a couple of weeks to revert back to using the file system.

00:24:14 ◼   ► That system is not going to scale once your child gets here, let me just tell you.

00:24:18 ◼   ► Using the file system, jeez. I've used iPhoto and Aperture and I think I had a demo of Lightroom

00:24:25 ◼   ► installed for a while and I always kept going back to iPhoto despite the fact that it has gotten

00:24:29 ◼   ► worse and worse over the years and drives me insane for two reasons. One, I have invested a

00:24:36 ◼   ► a lot of time in adding metadata to my photos in iPhoto.

00:24:41 ◼   ► And yeah, I know Aperture shares library

00:24:43 ◼   ► and all that other good stuff.

00:24:44 ◼   ► But two, the features that I use most frequently

00:24:48 ◼   ► either aren't in Aperture now or weren't in Aperture

00:24:52 ◼   ► years ago when I continued on this path,

00:24:53 ◼   ► like face recognition came first iPhoto.

00:24:56 ◼   ► Is that even in Aperture yet?

00:24:57 ◼   ► - I believe they brought over all that stuff

00:24:59 ◼   ► in like a point one update.

00:25:01 ◼   ► - Like the photo books, the slide shows,

00:25:04 ◼   ► all the silly consumer grade things

00:25:06 ◼   ► they put in iPhoto, we use them. Not frequently, but every once in a while it's nice to have

00:25:09 ◼   ► them there. And again, with the library sharing it's probably not that big of a deal, but

00:25:12 ◼   ► basically we've, I've just sunk so many hours and so much time into iPhoto. All my photos

00:25:18 ◼   ► are in iPhoto, they're organized in there, they're rated, mostly keyworded, all sorts

00:25:23 ◼   ► of other stuff. And I just don't do any adjustments of them. I have no idea what I'm doing in

00:25:29 ◼   ► Aperture or Lightroom. My photos aren't that good quality anyway because I don't really

00:25:32 ◼   ► have a real camera. So yeah, I've been to iPhoto forever and that's where all my pictures

00:25:37 ◼   ► are.

00:25:38 ◼   ► So I've actually used all of these things before and it's been like it beyond just like

00:25:43 ◼   ► using it for like a day or two. I started out with all iPhoto. Then I tried Aperture

00:25:50 ◼   ► for I was all iPhoto through my first SLR phase for three or four years. Then I switched

00:25:58 ◼   ► over to Lightroom, I mean to Aperture first for about a year and a half or two years,

00:26:04 ◼   ► then Lightroom, then back to Aperture, then back to Lightroom. And each one with like

00:26:09 ◼   ► you know a six month interval there at the end. And now I've been at Lightroom for

00:26:13 ◼   ► a couple years and they've all driven me crazy in different ways. None of them are

00:26:18 ◼   ► great solutions. And you know the iOS situation is not great either. The iOS situation pre-8

00:26:27 ◼   ► with the Photos app on iOS being just kind of this browser

00:26:31 ◼   ► that could do very little,

00:26:33 ◼   ► the camera app being kind of half integrated into it,

00:26:35 ◼   ► and then the separate iPhoto app,

00:26:38 ◼   ► which I don't know anybody who uses iPhoto on iOS.

00:26:40 ◼   ► I tried it briefly, and it was so clunky and terrible to me

00:26:44 ◼   ► that I couldn't stand it.

00:26:46 ◼   ► But on the desktop, these programs have all had issues.

00:26:50 ◼   ► They've all driven me nuts.

00:26:52 ◼   ► My photo was by far the least aggravating

00:26:57 ◼   ► for the longest time in that if you wanna do

00:27:02 ◼   ► pretty passive management of your photos,

00:27:05 ◼   ► like you know what, I don't wanna create albums

00:27:08 ◼   ► and sets and tags and keywords,

00:27:10 ◼   ► I just wanna import everything

00:27:11 ◼   ► and be able to browse it quickly, that's it.

00:27:13 ◼   ► I know this is not maybe as common as other people think,

00:27:17 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:27:19 ◼   ► I've never used metadata features at all.

00:27:22 ◼   ► I tagged all the faces in iPhoto when that came out

00:27:24 ◼   ► and then I never looked at them again,

00:27:25 ◼   ► so that was a waste of time.

00:27:27 ◼   ► iPhoto has always been the simplest

00:27:31 ◼   ► because it didn't require much organization

00:27:35 ◼   ► and you could browse quickly and performance was critical.

00:27:40 ◼   ► Aperture has always had by far the worst performance

00:27:44 ◼   ► of any of these things.

00:27:44 ◼   ► Even on a Mac Pro, even with an SSD,

00:27:48 ◼   ► Aperture performance has always been much slower for me

00:27:51 ◼   ► than Lightroom or iPhoto.

00:27:53 ◼   ► And even in a fairly recent update,

00:27:56 ◼   ► I think like two years ago,

00:27:57 ◼   ► which for Aperture is recent

00:27:58 ◼   ► 'cause no one ever works on it,

00:28:00 ◼   ► but in a fairly recent update to Aperture,

00:28:01 ◼   ► they even did the thing where you could merge the library

00:28:03 ◼   ► where Aperture and iPhoto could share the same library,

00:28:05 ◼   ► which is an interesting move.

00:28:08 ◼   ► Even that didn't make Aperture fast.

00:28:10 ◼   ► It's always been very, very slow

00:28:12 ◼   ► just browsing through collections and stuff,

00:28:14 ◼   ► and it's also been very buggy.

00:28:16 ◼   ► And I tried a lot of different versions of Aperture

00:28:17 ◼   ► 'cause whenever a new one would come out,

00:28:19 ◼   ► all the Aperture fans would say,

00:28:20 ◼   ► oh, they finally made it better,

00:28:22 ◼   ► so I'd go back and try again.

00:28:24 ◼   ► And it was never really that much better.

00:28:25 ◼   ► It's like desktop Linux, everyone always says,

00:28:27 ◼   ► it's better now, go try it again.

00:28:30 ◼   ► And it never really is,

00:28:31 ◼   ► like at least not meaningfully enough

00:28:33 ◼   ► to people who don't use it every day

00:28:35 ◼   ► to really see that, oh, no,

00:28:36 ◼   ► this is still annoying the crap out of me

00:28:38 ◼   ► and having these weird bugs and weird performance issues.

00:28:41 ◼   ► Lightroom has by far the best performance

00:28:46 ◼   ► and the best stability compared to the other apps.

00:28:50 ◼   ► But Lightroom's interface is clunky.

00:28:52 ◼   ► And although, honestly, I found Aperture's interface

00:28:53 ◼   ► clunky as well.

00:28:55 ◼   ► Even iPhoto, like, I totally agree with Jon

00:28:58 ◼   ► that while I was still trying it,

00:29:00 ◼   ► and I still go back to it occasionally,

00:29:02 ◼   ► it does seem like every release is worse than the last one.

00:29:04 ◼   ► There's something about like,

00:29:06 ◼   ► the things they do to try to make it easier

00:29:09 ◼   ► usually end up making it clunkier,

00:29:11 ◼   ► which you wouldn't expect, but that's been the case.

00:29:13 ◼   ► And so I've tried all these apps, none of them are great,

00:29:16 ◼   ► and only the Apple apps have the integration

00:29:19 ◼   ► with the iOS devices.

00:29:20 ◼   ► So if you're an iOS device user

00:29:23 ◼   ► and you want nice sync between all these things,

00:29:26 ◼   ► only Aperture and iPhoto have that.

00:29:28 ◼   ► And Lightroom has, they recently launched

00:29:31 ◼   ► their own sync platform.

00:29:32 ◼   ► Adobe's had a weird history with this.

00:29:33 ◼   ► First they launched Adobe Revel

00:29:35 ◼   ► about two years ago, I think.

00:29:37 ◼   ► And it was a good idea.

00:29:40 ◼   ► In fact, a lot of the stuff

00:29:41 ◼   ► that the new Photos Cloud thing is doing,

00:29:44 ◼   ► Revel did it two years ago.

00:29:47 ◼   ► but it was a weird combo with weird limitations

00:29:51 ◼   ► that was never very well marketed.

00:29:52 ◼   ► It was very clear that it was not a top priority for Adobe.

00:29:56 ◼   ► So then Lightroom Cloud was,

00:30:00 ◼   ► are they calling it Lightroom Cloud, Lightroom Mobile,

00:30:01 ◼   ► whatever they're, Lightroom released a sync product

00:30:03 ◼   ► like two months ago or something like that.

00:30:05 ◼   ► And you had to manually drag over things that were synced.

00:30:09 ◼   ► It would not sync your whole library.

00:30:12 ◼   ► It wouldn't even let you sync a smart album

00:30:14 ◼   ► so you couldn't do a trick where you say,

00:30:15 ◼   ► all right, we'll just sync everything

00:30:16 ◼   ► from the last six years, you know?

00:30:17 ◼   ► Couldn't even do that.

00:30:18 ◼   ► You have to manually select what got synced,

00:30:20 ◼   ► which kind of ruins the way I wanted to use it.

00:30:23 ◼   ► And what I want is what Apple is giving us.

00:30:26 ◼   ► Now, I am sad that Aperture is going away

00:30:29 ◼   ► in the sense that there's gonna be less competition

00:30:31 ◼   ► for Lightroom, but there wasn't that much to begin with,

00:30:34 ◼   ► 'cause Aperture was so badly maintained by Apple.

00:30:36 ◼   ► It hardly ever got new releases.

00:30:39 ◼   ► It rarely got new features.

00:30:41 ◼   ► Does it even, I know this is probably,

00:30:44 ◼   ► some people consider this minor, but does it even have lens profiles yet for cameras?

00:30:47 ◼   ► Like Lightroom added that a couple years ago and it's, oh, it's such an incredibly good

00:30:51 ◼   ► feature because you don't realize how distorted your camera is until you click on that checkbox

00:30:55 ◼   ► that applies the lens profile in Lightroom and you see, whoop, oh.

00:30:58 ◼   ► Alright, people in the chat say no, didn't get lens profiles.

00:31:02 ◼   ► Don't you feel like it's kind of a shame that like, not that Aputure defined the category

00:31:06 ◼   ► but that Aputure essentially popularized a category of application that previously was

00:31:13 ◼   ► only used by professional photographers. It sort of made it prosumer. Because when we

00:31:17 ◼   ► were talking about Aperture and Twitter and everything, and everyone was chiming in with

00:31:19 ◼   ► the names of these applications that I've never heard of, probably because they're used

00:31:22 ◼   ► by pro photographers. And Aperture was like, prosumer. Oh, here's an application like the

00:31:27 ◼   ► ones that pros use, probably nicer because it's made by Apple and doesn't have any weird

00:31:32 ◼   ► -- you know, it's not made by some weird company that sells a small number of copies. This

00:31:35 ◼   ► is Apple. Is it going to be friendly? It's going to be prosumer. But it fulfills the

00:31:39 ◼   ► the same role and then Lightroom said,

00:31:42 ◼   ► that's great and all Apple, but here's how you actually

00:31:44 ◼   ► do that app and not make it suck.

00:31:45 ◼   ► - Right, and Aperture was just relentless in its updates

00:31:48 ◼   ► and like new cameras would come out

00:31:50 ◼   ► with crazy new raw formats.

00:31:52 ◼   ► - Lightroom you mean?

00:31:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, obviously.

00:31:54 ◼   ► Like new cameras would come out with crazy new raw formats

00:31:57 ◼   ► and Lightroom would beat Aperture to supporting

00:31:59 ◼   ► almost every single one and often by like weeks or months,

00:32:03 ◼   ► it was often a pretty big difference.

00:32:05 ◼   ► And just you know, the processing engine,

00:32:08 ◼   ► Like, I always liked, and this was, I was torn,

00:32:11 ◼   ► one of the reasons I kept switching back and forth,

00:32:14 ◼   ► I always liked the results I got from Aperture,

00:32:16 ◼   ► from editing in Aperture.

00:32:18 ◼   ► I edited some of my favorite pictures in it.

00:32:23 ◼   ► But Lightroom's editing controls are better.

00:32:26 ◼   ► I was really very, very impressed

00:32:29 ◼   ► with the output of Aperture,

00:32:30 ◼   ► but I hated every part of getting there.

00:32:32 ◼   ► Whereas with Lightroom, it's now,

00:32:35 ◼   ► like the tools are much more advanced

00:32:36 ◼   ► and they've slowly made it a little bit more artsy

00:32:39 ◼   ► rather than analytical and everything,

00:32:42 ◼   ► and so they're improving on that front.

00:32:43 ◼   ► But the biggest problem with these apps,

00:32:46 ◼   ► that's always been the case with Aperture and Lightroom,

00:32:49 ◼   ► and I know there's other apps out there.

00:32:50 ◼   ► My wife uses Bridge.

00:32:51 ◼   ► In fact, Casey, for the same reason.

00:32:53 ◼   ► She likes the file system approach.

00:32:55 ◼   ► We have a kid, we have many pictures of the kid,

00:32:57 ◼   ► and she uses the file system, John.

00:32:59 ◼   ► But, (laughs)

00:33:01 ◼   ► 'cause Bridge is, it comes with Photoshop,

00:33:04 ◼   ► and it's basically Lightroom's editing controls,

00:33:07 ◼   ► or rather Lightroom is really Bridge's editing controls,

00:33:09 ◼   ► but regardless, it's Lightroom's editing controls,

00:33:12 ◼   ► all the same tools, even with the same names,

00:33:14 ◼   ► just with a different skin,

00:33:16 ◼   ► in a way that operates directly on the file system.

00:33:19 ◼   ► So it's more of like a fancy image browser

00:33:21 ◼   ► that just browses your folders on your disk,

00:33:23 ◼   ► but can do these operations to them.

00:33:25 ◼   ► Anyway, the problem with these apps is that

00:33:28 ◼   ► you have the professional workflow stuff.

00:33:31 ◼   ► Like if you're doing shoots for clients,

00:33:34 ◼   ► these are not your personal photos.

00:33:35 ◼   ► You don't want to keep one giant library

00:33:38 ◼   ► of every photo you've ever shot for a client

00:33:40 ◼   ► merged in with the photos of your dog.

00:33:42 ◼   ► That doesn't really make sense,

00:33:44 ◼   ► doesn't really work, doesn't really scale.

00:33:46 ◼   ► And so Photoshop and Lightroom and Aperture

00:33:49 ◼   ► were both built to address this market of professionals

00:33:52 ◼   ► who do shoots with these big collections,

00:33:55 ◼   ► these big sets that you have to bring in

00:33:56 ◼   ► and out of your library and manage your storage

00:33:59 ◼   ► in different crazy ways and everything.

00:34:01 ◼   ► That's what they're for.

00:34:03 ◼   ► There's also this entire community of people like us,

00:34:06 ◼   ► people who might buy an SLR or a fancy camera

00:34:10 ◼   ► and want really advanced editing controls

00:34:13 ◼   ► for making our photos look good after we take them,

00:34:15 ◼   ► or fancy RAW controls or things like that,

00:34:19 ◼   ► or RAW handling rather,

00:34:20 ◼   ► and then lossless editing controls.

00:34:23 ◼   ► There's people like us who want that power,

00:34:25 ◼   ► the power of those editing tools,

00:34:27 ◼   ► who don't need or necessarily even want

00:34:30 ◼   ► that crazy pro photographer workflow and storage

00:34:34 ◼   ► and collection management that these apps bring

00:34:37 ◼   ► and kind of force you to use.

00:34:39 ◼   ► iPhoto actually has a very,

00:34:41 ◼   ► it has always had a very small amount of RAW options.

00:34:44 ◼   ► The way it used to work, and please chat,

00:34:46 ◼   ► correct me if I'm wrong, with new versions,

00:34:48 ◼   ► but the way it used to work,

00:34:49 ◼   ► the first time you edited a RAW photo,

00:34:51 ◼   ► you would actually have lossless RAW controls there,

00:34:54 ◼   ► and you could make great adjustments.

00:34:56 ◼   ► It wouldn't really indicate that

00:34:57 ◼   ► except for like a little RAW badge in the corner,

00:34:59 ◼   ► but you were doing, it wasn't like importing a JPEG

00:35:03 ◼   ► and operating on that, you were actually working

00:35:04 ◼   ► on the RAW first, but as soon as you exited that first edit,

00:35:08 ◼   ► it would write the changes, it would bake them

00:35:11 ◼   ► into the JPEG preview, and then you'd never have

00:35:13 ◼   ► lossless editing on that file after that

00:35:14 ◼   ► unless you totally reverted it back to original

00:35:17 ◼   ► and then reprocessed it.

00:35:19 ◼   ► And so iPhoto had these half-assed RAW editing controls.

00:35:23 ◼   ► It looks to almost all of, almost all the hints we got,

00:35:27 ◼   ► all the info we got and if you look at the articles that reported the apertures

00:35:32 ◼   ► being discontinued they all came with this additional screenshot of the photos

00:35:35 ◼   ► app that we haven't seen before that wasn't in the keynote that shows

00:35:38 ◼   ► controls and things that weren't in the keynote and it looks a lot like aperture

00:35:43 ◼   ► and Lightroom it looks like it has a ton of editing controls on in the right-hand

00:35:48 ◼   ► column really advanced stuff beyond what you normally get in iPhoto and looks

00:35:53 ◼   ► like the same kind of stuff you get in aperture and Lightroom it sure looks

00:35:57 ◼   ► like what they've really done here is now we will have the

00:36:01 ◼   ► simplified management of iPhoto and all the convenience of the

00:36:05 ◼   ► files being synced and being part of our official photo library on our Macs and iPhones

00:36:09 ◼   ► and our iPads and it looks like they've finally given

00:36:13 ◼   ► iPhoto or the new Photos app rather, but they finally brought

00:36:17 ◼   ► those pro-level editing tools into the consumer level photo

00:36:21 ◼   ► management app, which is something we've never had before. As I said iPhoto used

00:36:25 ◼   ► to have kind of this half-assed version, but it sure looks like they're giving us exactly

00:36:31 ◼   ► what people like us want. This is not what pro photographers really need, but it certainly

00:36:36 ◼   ► is what people like me and you guys need, you know? Where it's still a consumer app,

00:36:42 ◼   ► it's going to have simple management I'm sure, probably very similar to the iOS Photos app,

00:36:47 ◼   ► but it has all these advanced controls. And that, to me, I'm very excited about this.

00:36:52 ◼   ► I don't think I'm gonna stop using Lightroom,

00:36:55 ◼   ► but I might.

00:36:56 ◼   ► Like it looks like it's good enough

00:36:58 ◼   ► that it might be good enough for me

00:37:00 ◼   ► to drop Lightroom entirely.

00:37:02 ◼   ► - Well, their editing controls,

00:37:03 ◼   ► the big thing they were showing in the keynote was,

00:37:05 ◼   ► you know, not just prosumer,

00:37:07 ◼   ► but going down to consumer level.

00:37:08 ◼   ► When consumers are faced with the actual controls available

00:37:11 ◼   ► in Aperture or Lightroom, they'd have no idea what to do.

00:37:13 ◼   ► I don't know what to do.

00:37:14 ◼   ► Like it's just, it's too complicated.

00:37:15 ◼   ► There's too much involved.

00:37:16 ◼   ► You're never gonna get anything right.

00:37:17 ◼   ► So that's why iPhoto just has a big red button

00:37:19 ◼   ► called enhance that tries to do something reasonable.

00:37:21 ◼   ► and then it's got a few tweaks for, you know,

00:37:23 ◼   ► a few other minor controls.

00:37:25 ◼   ► The Photos app is trying to take it farther.

00:37:27 ◼   ► It's like, we are going to sort of kind of expose

00:37:30 ◼   ► all the crazy controls you see,

00:37:31 ◼   ► but we're also gonna give you a big friendly slider

00:37:34 ◼   ► that says, please make picture better now along some axes,

00:37:38 ◼   ► and that slider won't adjust any one thing.

00:37:40 ◼   ► That slider will adjust 17 factors

00:37:42 ◼   ► and not even in a constant ratio,

00:37:44 ◼   ► just trying to do like a smart adjustment,

00:37:46 ◼   ► because they know that most people don't know enough

00:37:48 ◼   ► to correctly adjust the little sliders

00:37:50 ◼   ► to get everything right,

00:37:51 ◼   ► want to and they know that the big red enhance button is also the other end of

00:37:55 ◼   ► the spectrum it's not good enough they want to give you some control you tell

00:37:58 ◼   ► oh this picture is a little bit too dark this picture looks like it's a little

00:38:01 ◼   ► bit underexposed like if you can get a few basic concepts and then grab a hold

00:38:04 ◼   ► of one of those sliders they will do sophisticated stuff behind the covers

00:38:08 ◼   ► that involves adjusting a hundred sliders to try to get you something nice

00:38:11 ◼   ► and this is moving farther and farther away from professionals and towards the

00:38:14 ◼   ► realm of consumers but trying to make it useful you're like if we give this

00:38:17 ◼   ► picture to a pro they could make it look better than you ever will but how close

00:38:21 ◼   ► can we get you without teaching you really anything but some basic concepts about

00:38:26 ◼   ► photography

00:38:28 ◼   ► And did you see the larger screenshot this on put in the chat room? Yeah. Yeah, it confirms

00:38:32 ◼   ► I think pretty much everything yeah, it does actually it's hard to see in this picture

00:38:37 ◼   ► But actually almost looks kind of light roomy in terms of like the UI, you know

00:38:40 ◼   ► Like I like less like aperture with this strange squinty Pro interface and all that

00:38:46 ◼   ► Stuff but so I made I made a list of pros and cons for the photos app

00:38:50 ◼   ► that's going to be replacing this from my perspective because

00:38:52 ◼   ► Despite all the editing stuff that you just talked about. I think most people don't edit their photos

00:38:57 ◼   ► I bet that people most people don't even hit the big red enhance button. I bet most people don't even crop their photos

00:39:02 ◼   ► I think they just

00:39:04 ◼   ► Collect them and then have want to find have some way to go through them

00:39:08 ◼   ► So organization is the more important thing

00:39:11 ◼   ► But so from my perspective what I do with things in iPhoto is the reason I add all this metadata is for organizational purposes

00:39:17 ◼   ► So that I can do things like I just have too many damn pictures so I can do things like

00:39:22 ◼   ► three plus stars featuring my daughter from Long Island in 2010 and that will give me like seven photos if I wanted to make a

00:39:29 ◼   ► Calendar page if we're printing out a family calendar of cute pictures of my daughter from on the beach in that time and

00:39:36 ◼   ► How do I get to do that out of my thousands and thousands and thousands of photos because I rate every single one of them

00:39:41 ◼   ► Because I keyword them because I make sure the face recognition works so that I can do

00:39:45 ◼   ► smart searches and smart albums that very quickly give me the seven or eight good pictures out of the hundreds or thousands that I

00:39:51 ◼   ► Took and I would say that's that puts you in a severe minority

00:39:54 ◼   ► I mean, I I would bet you're totally right. Most people don't even edit their photos don't even crop them

00:39:59 ◼   ► But I would also bet almost, you know comparably nobody

00:40:03 ◼   ► Actually edits metadata, right? Well, I'm not saying that's the that's the right solution

00:40:08 ◼   ► I'm saying that's what I've done

00:40:09 ◼   ► But like what I think actually before I get to my pros and cons

00:40:11 ◼   ► but I think the correct solution for the photos app is

00:40:13 ◼   ► Dump all the photos into one big thing and give people like the the ability to like

00:40:17 ◼   ► Not the obviously you can't use Facebook's like but I think that's something people can do people and take a bunch of photos

00:40:22 ◼   ► People can go there's maybe all the photos that someone takes the person who took the pictures goes through them at least once like they want

00:40:28 ◼   ► To look at the pictures they took. I'm not even sure that's a safe assumption

00:40:31 ◼   ► But good. I think they take the photos they go through them once they say oh, that's a good one

00:40:35 ◼   ► And if they had a little button that would you know do like or star or whatever then at the end of their vacation?

00:40:40 ◼   ► 1% of their photos or 2% or depending how how kind they are to themselves have little stars in them and then in the future

00:40:47 ◼   ► When they want to see show me all the good pictures from that vacation

00:40:49 ◼   ► They don't want to go through a thousand pictures

00:40:50 ◼   ► Just show me the ones that I said were good that kind of binary good bad

00:40:54 ◼   ► Type thing where you don't say bad you just say good

00:40:56 ◼   ► Maybe there's a bad option to I guess put in the trash or whatever. Is there a parking lot?

00:41:01 ◼   ► Well, no, but the thing is, so let me use myself as a quote unquote normal insofar as I take pictures only with my iPhone

00:41:09 ◼   ► We have no point-and-shoot other than that. We have no SLR

00:41:12 ◼   ► I know that we'll all probably change when Sprouts here, but nevertheless as it is today

00:41:17 ◼   ► we we only have our iPhones and

00:41:19 ◼   ► What inevitably happens is I'll take a picture because if the occasion strikes my fancy

00:41:26 ◼   ► And I think that I might want to capture that moment and it goes into my photo

00:41:30 ◼   ► stream roll thing, whatever, on the phone.

00:41:33 ◼   ► And then every couple of months, I remember that,

00:41:36 ◼   ► ooh, I should probably take this off my phone.

00:41:38 ◼   ► I hook up image capture, I hook it up to the Mac,

00:41:41 ◼   ► run image capture, dump everything into one folder,

00:41:44 ◼   ► and never look at it again.

00:41:46 ◼   ► And these photos are extremely important to me,

00:41:50 ◼   ► yet I never ever look at them.

00:41:51 ◼   ► - But no one wants to see pictures of you and your wife.

00:41:53 ◼   ► People are gonna wanna see pictures of your child.

00:41:55 ◼   ► And so you're going to be faced with the problem of,

00:41:58 ◼   ► send me three good pictures,

00:41:59 ◼   ► and or you're gonna be making cute little kid things,

00:42:02 ◼   ► like I mentioned the calendars,

00:42:03 ◼   ► or little books or some like,

00:42:05 ◼   ► baby's first year type things like,

00:42:07 ◼   ► stuff like that comes up,

00:42:09 ◼   ► and you wanna distribute them,

00:42:10 ◼   ► so you will be faced with some kind of sorting problem,

00:42:12 ◼   ► because A, you'll have way more pictures

00:42:14 ◼   ► than you have of yourself and your wife,

00:42:15 ◼   ► because you'll take a million pictures of your kid,

00:42:17 ◼   ► and B, people will want them,

00:42:19 ◼   ► but people won't want a million of them,

00:42:20 ◼   ► they just want the one or two good ones, right?

00:42:22 ◼   ► So you will be faced with that task eventually,

00:42:25 ◼   ► of having vastly increased volume,

00:42:28 ◼   ► but also having the task before you

00:42:30 ◼   ► to come up with two or three good ones.

00:42:31 ◼   ► And you're gonna wanna,

00:42:32 ◼   ► because you're gonna wanna show your kid

00:42:33 ◼   ► being the cutest possible.

00:42:34 ◼   ► - And I understand that, but I think if,

00:42:37 ◼   ► again, sitting here now, very ignorant,

00:42:39 ◼   ► because I don't know what it's like to be a parent yet,

00:42:41 ◼   ► I think I would just think to myself, hmm,

00:42:44 ◼   ► when did Sprout, or whatever we're going to name him or her,

00:42:48 ◼   ► when did Sprout look cute?

00:42:51 ◼   ► When do I remember taking a good picture?

00:42:53 ◼   ► What day was that?

00:42:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, he thinks his memory's gonna work

00:42:57 ◼   ► after the child gets here.

00:42:59 ◼   ► So cute.

00:43:00 ◼   ► - Honestly, I think that's what most people do.

00:43:01 ◼   ► I think most people, they just browse on a timeline.

00:43:05 ◼   ► That's all I do.

00:43:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, the timeline gets big.

00:43:08 ◼   ► I mean, like I said, I'm not saying people need

00:43:10 ◼   ► to be rating each individual one and cropping it.

00:43:12 ◼   ► I'm saying, even when people put stuff on Facebook,

00:43:15 ◼   ► people like other people's photos on Facebook.

00:43:17 ◼   ► People say, yes, that is a good picture.

00:43:19 ◼   ► No, that is not a good one.

00:43:20 ◼   ► Just the binary, that little binary thing,

00:43:22 ◼   ► because every picture on Facebook gets one or two likes,

00:43:26 ◼   ► but individual people don't like

00:43:27 ◼   ► every single photo they see.

00:43:29 ◼   ► So too with your own pictures.

00:43:30 ◼   ► If you look at them at all ever,

00:43:32 ◼   ► it's not too much to ask, oh, that's a cute one,

00:43:34 ◼   ► and just click a little thing.

00:43:35 ◼   ► Like people fave tweets for crying out loud.

00:43:37 ◼   ► It's the same thing.

00:43:38 ◼   ► Do people read all their Twitter stream?

00:43:39 ◼   ► No, but sometimes they see one and they fave it.

00:43:41 ◼   ► I think that is the appropriate level

00:43:43 ◼   ► of granularity for sorting.

00:43:45 ◼   ► - And I'm with you.

00:43:46 ◼   ► And the funny thing is I actually believe

00:43:48 ◼   ► in having the metadata,

00:43:50 ◼   ► which is what I did in that two months that I spent

00:43:52 ◼   ► or whatever it was with iPhoto.

00:43:54 ◼   ► And I tried to create and generate all that metadata

00:43:57 ◼   ► so I could do exactly what you're describing.

00:43:59 ◼   ► And the thought of being able to say,

00:44:01 ◼   ► oh, the picture of Aaron that I liked

00:44:03 ◼   ► when we were at some friend's wedding

00:44:05 ◼   ► and getting there instantly,

00:44:07 ◼   ► that sounds extremely appealing to me, it really does.

00:44:10 ◼   ► But all of the work I would have to go through

00:44:13 ◼   ► to get to that point, I have no interest in whatsoever.

00:44:16 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, face detection is an example.

00:44:18 ◼   ► Like I was using keywording before face detection, as I said, to keyword each of the people,

00:44:22 ◼   ► but if you have face detection, the computer can do that part for you.

00:44:24 ◼   ► You don't have to find keyword things as having Aaron in them, face detection will narrow

00:44:28 ◼   ► that down for you, it's not going to be 100% effective, but look at all the work at CIFU.

00:44:32 ◼   ► You didn't have to categorize pictures as having Aaron in them or not, the program did

00:44:35 ◼   ► it for you.

00:44:37 ◼   ► Program probably could get to the point where it can fave things for you in terms of framing

00:44:40 ◼   ► and composition and whether it's in focus or not.

00:44:45 ◼   ► That's where they're trying to get there.

00:44:46 ◼   ► What Apple is trying to do is make it so that normal people can have the photo experience

00:44:50 ◼   ► that I have through diligent work that I put into my photo library.

00:44:54 ◼   ► I don't think that's it.

00:44:56 ◼   ► I think they're trying to adapt from a world of people hoping to use it like you and usually

00:45:03 ◼   ► not and failing.

00:45:04 ◼   ► They're trying to adapt from that world to the way people actually use their photo libraries

00:45:10 ◼   ► today.

00:45:11 ◼   ► I know, but they want them to have the advantages that I have without the work.

00:45:15 ◼   ► That's what I'm getting at.

00:45:16 ◼   ► Same thing with the editing.

00:45:17 ◼   ► They want them to be able to edit photos kind of sort of like a pro without knowing anything

00:45:22 ◼   ► that the pros know.

00:45:23 ◼   ► They want them to be able to find their photos quickly, the ones that they like, without

00:45:26 ◼   ► having to put any work into organizing them and saying which ones are good and putting

00:45:29 ◼   ► them into little albums and doing all that stuff.

00:45:32 ◼   ► That's what all their things are towards.

00:45:33 ◼   ► They want you to have powerful features without putting in a lot of work.

00:45:36 ◼   ► All right.

00:45:37 ◼   ► So what are your pros and cons?

00:45:38 ◼   ► All right.

00:45:39 ◼   ► So this is from my perspective, obviously, as an iPhoto user.

00:45:42 ◼   ► So we already touched on a lot of these pros, but just to go down the list here.

00:45:45 ◼   ► So full cloud backup of everything, assuming you pay enough money.

00:45:49 ◼   ► That's what we've talked about this forever.

00:45:51 ◼   ► What they seem to be saying is all your photos will be everywhere.

00:45:55 ◼   ► We'll take care of it.

00:45:56 ◼   ► They'll all be in the cloud.

00:45:57 ◼   ► They'll be full resolution, assuming you pay us enough money.

00:46:00 ◼   ► But I mean, fine, whatever.

00:46:01 ◼   ► Like if they come through on that and the pricing is not outside my price range, I would

00:46:06 ◼   ► call that a pro because right now I have to roll my own solution for that.

00:46:11 ◼   ► whereas in this system, I wouldn't need to.

00:46:14 ◼   ► No one device has to hold all your photos.

00:46:16 ◼   ► So if my Mac isn't big enough to hold my photo library,

00:46:18 ◼   ► if my phone isn't big enough to hold my photo library,

00:46:20 ◼   ► if my iPad isn't big enough, doesn't matter.

00:46:21 ◼   ► They don't all need to be in any one device.

00:46:23 ◼   ► They're all in the cloud.

00:46:24 ◼   ► Some subset of them is on your devices.

00:46:27 ◼   ► You don't have to worry about it.

00:46:28 ◼   ► But all photos are browsable,

00:46:30 ◼   ► are available to you on all devices.

00:46:31 ◼   ► So just because all your pictures can't fit on your phone,

00:46:34 ◼   ► if you scroll back to, you know, 1996,

00:46:36 ◼   ► you should still be able to browse through there,

00:46:38 ◼   ► even though those aren't, you know,

00:46:39 ◼   ► So dynamically taking care of what's on the device,

00:46:41 ◼   ► what's not.

00:46:43 ◼   ► That's the whole promise of this system,

00:46:45 ◼   ► getting us out of individual applications

00:46:47 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:46:48 ◼   ► Presumably edits show up everywhere.

00:46:50 ◼   ► So if you crop a photo on your phone,

00:46:51 ◼   ► if you crop it on your Mac, if you crop it on your iPad,

00:46:53 ◼   ► wherever you do that work to it,

00:46:55 ◼   ► that edit would show up everywhere.

00:46:57 ◼   ► You don't, oh, I cropped that on my phone,

00:46:58 ◼   ► but the version on my iPhone library isn't cropped.

00:47:00 ◼   ► Or the one in PhotoStream is cropped,

00:47:01 ◼   ► but the one in my library isn't.

00:47:02 ◼   ► Like all these weird things like that,

00:47:04 ◼   ► presumably would show up everywhere.

00:47:06 ◼   ► and also presumably organizational changes

00:47:09 ◼   ► that show up everywhere.

00:47:10 ◼   ► If they have a concept of an album

00:47:11 ◼   ► and if you happen to make an album,

00:47:13 ◼   ► I would hope that that album shows up

00:47:15 ◼   ► everywhere that your pictures are.

00:47:17 ◼   ► So if you make the album on your Mac,

00:47:18 ◼   ► the album would show up on your phone.

00:47:19 ◼   ► If you make the album on your phone,

00:47:20 ◼   ► it shows up on your iPad.

00:47:22 ◼   ► That's the dream of this arrangement

00:47:25 ◼   ► of being divorced from a program that lives in one place

00:47:28 ◼   ► that has a library that's in a folder

00:47:30 ◼   ► or in some big bundle thing or whatever.

00:47:34 ◼   ► Now, on the con side, the one I immediately think of is,

00:47:37 ◼   ► how do I make a backup of this?

00:47:39 ◼   ► How do I make a local backup?

00:47:40 ◼   ► Because if all my photos aren't on my Mac,

00:47:42 ◼   ► and all my photos aren't on my iPod,

00:47:43 ◼   ► and all my photos aren't on my iPad,

00:47:47 ◼   ► what if I want to have a hard drive in my house,

00:47:50 ◼   ► or even just do my own online backup

00:47:52 ◼   ► to Backblazer or whatever, how do I do that?

00:47:54 ◼   ► How do I make a backup of this?

00:47:56 ◼   ► Or am I out of the picture on that?

00:47:58 ◼   ► Now, no, I'm sorry, you're not allowed to have a backup of it.

00:48:00 ◼   ► And that leads me to the second con,

00:48:02 ◼   ► which is, what's my recourse

00:48:03 ◼   ► if some of my pictures disappear.

00:48:04 ◼   ► Say I buy into the system, upload all my stuff,

00:48:07 ◼   ► all my pictures are in the cloud,

00:48:08 ◼   ► some subset of them is all my devices,

00:48:10 ◼   ► then I try to go back to some pictures from 2004

00:48:13 ◼   ► that I know we took a beach vacation and I can't find them,

00:48:17 ◼   ► or they're there and they're all blank white,

00:48:18 ◼   ► or they're all scrambled or whatever.

00:48:19 ◼   ► What is my recourse?

00:48:20 ◼   ► I don't have a local backup, remember,

00:48:22 ◼   ► and now they're all screwed up.

00:48:23 ◼   ► Or what if they all spawn duplicates

00:48:24 ◼   ► and I have three of every picture

00:48:26 ◼   ► and I have to go through and manually delete them?

00:48:28 ◼   ► What is my reset?

00:48:29 ◼   ► How do I start over if I don't have a local backup?

00:48:33 ◼   ► This is like reliability basically saying,

00:48:35 ◼   ► do I trust Apple to be the cloud storage for all my photos?

00:48:38 ◼   ► And I clearly I don't.

00:48:39 ◼   ► How severely will the organizational tools

00:48:42 ◼   ► that I happen to use be curtailed?

00:48:43 ◼   ► I presume they will curtail the organizational tools

00:48:46 ◼   ► because like Marco said,

00:48:47 ◼   ► most people don't use half of these tools.

00:48:48 ◼   ► Why would they include them in the photos app?

00:48:50 ◼   ► Ratings, keywords, albums, faces, events,

00:48:53 ◼   ► like all these things,

00:48:54 ◼   ► all these concepts that exist in iPhoto,

00:48:56 ◼   ► I imagine almost all of them would be gone in photos.

00:48:59 ◼   ► And that's fine for most people,

00:49:01 ◼   ► but it's not good for me

00:49:02 ◼   ► because I put a lot of time and effort into those.

00:49:05 ◼   ► And what happens to that data when, you know,

00:49:07 ◼   ► how will I import my existing iPhoto library

00:49:10 ◼   ► into the system?

00:49:11 ◼   ► Will there be a way for me to do that?

00:49:13 ◼   ► Even just saying stuff like crops.

00:49:14 ◼   ► Like I spend a lot of time cropping pictures that I like.

00:49:16 ◼   ► Like that's not a big complicated edit.

00:49:19 ◼   ► Is that something I'm gonna lose?

00:49:20 ◼   ► Are all my crops gonna be gone?

00:49:22 ◼   ► Will there be a migration path from iPhoto into this thing

00:49:25 ◼   ► that maintains as much of my metadata as possible?

00:49:28 ◼   ► Or will it just be like, nope, sorry,

00:49:29 ◼   ► will just read your original JPEGs off disk again and upload them and you'll have to do

00:49:33 ◼   ► or re-edit them and everything.

00:49:35 ◼   ► So in these pros and cons, I'm kind of excited about the pros, but if some of these cons

00:49:39 ◼   ► can't be addressed, I don't know what I'm going to do, because I mean, particularly

00:49:43 ◼   ► about the backup thing, I want to have an out if this thing gets flaky or screws up

00:49:48 ◼   ► my pictures in some way, I need to have a local backup.

00:49:50 ◼   ► And if I can't figure out how to do that, I'm just going to have to like, I don't know,

00:49:55 ◼   ► keep using iPhone until it doesn't run anymore or try to maintain two copies of everything.

00:49:59 ◼   ► in my iPhoto library and one in this cloud thing. I'm very nervous about this.

00:50:04 ◼   ► Well, why can't you just do image capture like I do and put that somewhere that gets

00:50:08 ◼   ► backed up everywhere? But then they wouldn't be in the cloud thing.

00:50:12 ◼   ► If I want to buy into this photos thing, I like the idea of having access to my one photo

00:50:17 ◼   ► library everywhere without having to have literally 500 gigabytes of photos attached

00:50:22 ◼   ► to every Mac in my house, and I can't fit it on any of my iOS devices. I want to see

00:50:27 ◼   ► my photos from everywhere. I wanted to have one big shared library that everyone can see,

00:50:31 ◼   ► or at least the same Apple ID in every system can see. This gets into the family sharing

00:50:35 ◼   ► thing that drives me nuts.

00:50:36 ◼   ► But no, no, I'm with you. I'm saying maybe even just leave the pictures on your iPhone,

00:50:43 ◼   ► if you will, or, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what you would do with an SLR. But in

00:50:47 ◼   ► addition to whatever the normal procedure is for the new way to handle photos, also

00:50:55 ◼   ► take all the pictures, dump them on your Synology, for example, in some drive somewhere that

00:51:00 ◼   ► you're also backing up offsite?

00:51:01 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, that doesn't—presumably, when I bring the photos in, I do mess with

00:51:07 ◼   ► them a little bit.

00:51:08 ◼   ► At the very least, I crop them and find the ones that are good.

00:51:11 ◼   ► And that work is not preserved by having a backup of folders full of pictures, whereas

00:51:16 ◼   ► now, what I'm backing up is essentially my iPhoto library, which has all the original

00:51:20 ◼   ► JPEGs, yes, but also has all the associated metadata with all the stuff.

00:51:23 ◼   ► So if my house burns down and I restore from a backup, what I get back is not just my original

00:51:29 ◼   ► photos, I get back all my crops from them, all my metadata from them, whatever metadata

00:51:32 ◼   ► there is to preserve, I get back.

00:51:35 ◼   ► Whereas if I'm just backing up the individual files, but then investing my time and continuing

00:51:40 ◼   ► my metadata regimes as much as I'm allowed to, at the very least with simple things like

00:51:44 ◼   ► albums and if not ratings and some kind of star type system, I'm not backing that up

00:51:50 ◼   ► anywhere.

00:51:51 ◼   ► That goes away.

00:51:52 ◼   ► And it's not like I think my house is going to burn.

00:51:53 ◼   ► going to go away because the earlier versions of this are going to be buggy and it's going

00:51:56 ◼   ► to screw up in some way and I'm going to want to reset or I'm going to want to restore

00:51:59 ◼   ► from backup or whatever and I'm not going to be able to.

00:52:02 ◼   ► Well I think this is really though a very uncommon case. I mean first of all I think

00:52:08 ◼   ► this is going to work like almost all these other iCloud type services and for Android

00:52:13 ◼   ► whatever their thing is, for Amazon for their new thing. Most people are not going to have

00:52:18 ◼   ► their own backup. Most people are going to be totally at the whims of the system, and

00:52:24 ◼   ► it'll work fine for most of them. I really think that it's just not going to be an issue

00:52:30 ◼   ► for most people.

00:52:31 ◼   ► I said these were my pros and cons, but even for things like contacts, the entirety of

00:52:36 ◼   ► people's contacts is probably the size of one photo from an SLR, and yet people have

00:52:42 ◼   ► trouble with contacts. Duplicate contacts, contacts being lost, edits to one contact

00:52:46 ◼   ► without showing up in another place.

00:52:47 ◼   ► If Apple can't get that right,

00:52:48 ◼   ► with such an incredibly low data volume,

00:52:50 ◼   ► and if that continues to be as I think it is,

00:52:52 ◼   ► from dealing with my relatives at least,

00:52:54 ◼   ► managing contacts continues to be a problem.

00:52:57 ◼   ► Keeping them in sync,

00:52:58 ◼   ► even if you're 100% on the Apple system,

00:52:59 ◼   ► keeping them in sync,

00:53:00 ◼   ► making sure all your edits are available in all places,

00:53:03 ◼   ► contacts are less precious than photos.

00:53:05 ◼   ► And I'm not sure Apple has proven that it's up to the task

00:53:08 ◼   ► to even doing, forget about metadata,

00:53:10 ◼   ► forget about anything else,

00:53:11 ◼   ► just the concept of I've taken a photo,

00:53:13 ◼   ► it exists or doesn't exist,

00:53:14 ◼   ► and it is accessible everywhere.

00:53:16 ◼   ► Simply that, it may be below the bar of things that Apple is able to pull off, or is thus

00:53:21 ◼   ► far proven that it's able to pull off, because I can't think of a single system that involves

00:53:25 ◼   ► data goes in one place and is available everywhere that works flawlessly and has reasonable debugging

00:53:30 ◼   ► recourse in Apple's environment. Whether it's photos, or we just talked about messages last

00:53:35 ◼   ► time, which is just simple text, my confidence is low. Yeah, and I think that's fair. I think

00:53:44 ◼   ► what's going to happen is it'll work great for most people and and by the way

00:53:50 ◼   ► I think most people once the photos thing is clouded I guess Wow yeah sorry

00:53:58 ◼   ► most people might lose most of the need for their own backups because you figure

00:54:04 ◼   ► like what most people do with their computers is pretty basic by by geek

00:54:10 ◼   ► standards it's the you know you internet stuff which is kind of always inherently

00:54:14 ◼   ► backed up because you can just log into stuff.

00:54:16 ◼   ► And then, you know, photos, maybe some documents

00:54:18 ◼   ► here and there.

00:54:19 ◼   ► Well, documents are now being moved to iCloud

00:54:21 ◼   ► in a lot of cases, or at least people are using Dropbox

00:54:25 ◼   ► or things like Dropbox.

00:54:26 ◼   ► With the new iCloud Drive thing, even more people

00:54:29 ◼   ► will be using something like that.

00:54:30 ◼   ► So that's kind of all covered, especially if iCloud Drive

00:54:33 ◼   ► becomes like the default place to save files by the system,

00:54:37 ◼   ► which it almost certainly would be.

00:54:38 ◼   ► That's backed up.

00:54:39 ◼   ► You have all the contact calendar, all that data backed up.

00:54:42 ◼   ► You have everything on your phone, you know,

00:54:44 ◼   ► Your music collection, your media collection,

00:54:46 ◼   ► that's all backed up through iTunes Match if you have that.

00:54:50 ◼   ► If you bought it through iTunes, it's backed up anyway.

00:54:53 ◼   ► And then now we're gonna have all your photos backed up.

00:54:55 ◼   ► I think this is gonna really remove the need

00:54:58 ◼   ► for a lot of people to have backups.

00:55:00 ◼   ► And furthermore, for people who don't have backups,

00:55:03 ◼   ► which is unfortunately most people,

00:55:05 ◼   ► having their photos be one of the things

00:55:07 ◼   ► that is always inherently backed up,

00:55:10 ◼   ► when they do have catastrophic data lost,

00:55:12 ◼   ► it'll be much less of an issue.

00:55:14 ◼   ► It'll be much less devastating

00:55:16 ◼   ► because they will have all their photos again.

00:55:18 ◼   ► That, and that's something that people almost always,

00:55:20 ◼   ► like that's their number one regret

00:55:22 ◼   ► when they have data loss,

00:55:23 ◼   ► that they lost their photos from X time interval

00:55:25 ◼   ► or this entire kid's existence or something like that.

00:55:28 ◼   ► So I think the benefit here is impossible to overstate.

00:55:32 ◼   ► - Well, we've talked about this many times.

00:55:34 ◼   ► We all want this.

00:55:35 ◼   ► We all want it to be,

00:55:36 ◼   ► to someone to take care of our photos.

00:55:37 ◼   ► What I'm saying now is not that I think it's a bad idea

00:55:40 ◼   ► for our photos to be in the cloud,

00:55:41 ◼   ► is that I want someone to take care of my photos

00:55:43 ◼   ► and I'm not sure that Apple is the one that I trust.

00:55:46 ◼   ► And even the Everpix scenario,

00:55:48 ◼   ► the reason Everpix was exciting was because

00:55:51 ◼   ► Everpix would promise to take care of all your photos,

00:55:53 ◼   ► but I was not entrusting my photos to Everpix

00:55:56 ◼   ► because I still had my iPhoto library, you know what I mean?

00:55:58 ◼   ► I was still backing up.

00:55:59 ◼   ► It was one more thing.

00:56:01 ◼   ► It's the scariness of saying,

00:56:03 ◼   ► not only is Apple volunteering to take care of your photos,

00:56:06 ◼   ► and not only do you hope Apple's gonna do this right,

00:56:08 ◼   ► but your photos won't be anyplace else.

00:56:11 ◼   ► Like, you know, you have like, all your eggs

00:56:14 ◼   ► are in one basket, and you just better watch that basket,

00:56:16 ◼   ► right?

00:56:17 ◼   ► And if it works, like that's exactly what we want.

00:56:19 ◼   ► Apple, please take care of the photo problem for us.

00:56:21 ◼   ► And like you said, like the amount of local data,

00:56:23 ◼   ► like why don't we just all buy Chromebooks at this point?

00:56:25 ◼   ► Because we think if we won't, you know,

00:56:26 ◼   ► everything's in Dropbox or in iCloud,

00:56:28 ◼   ► and your photos are all backed up,

00:56:29 ◼   ► and your iMessages are all backed up.

00:56:31 ◼   ► What local data is that?

00:56:32 ◼   ► You know, your email's all on a server somewhere

00:56:34 ◼   ► using IMAP, like the stuff that's local to your device,

00:56:38 ◼   ► it becomes just like a local cache,

00:56:40 ◼   ► which is again what we're all looking for,

00:56:41 ◼   ► is like tiered storage with a grid-fast local cache,

00:56:44 ◼   ► but none of your data needs to be there,

00:56:46 ◼   ► so you could smash your computer with a hammer,

00:56:48 ◼   ► get a new one, sign in with your Apple ID,

00:56:50 ◼   ► download Dropbox, install it,

00:56:52 ◼   ► wait a day and a half for your caches to warm up,

00:56:54 ◼   ► and then you're back in business.

00:56:56 ◼   ► That's where we wanna all get,

00:56:57 ◼   ► it's just that I'm not sure Apple has proven

00:57:00 ◼   ► that it's the one to take us there.

00:57:02 ◼   ► CloudKit, which apparently this is all based on,

00:57:03 ◼   ► is way better technologically speaking

00:57:05 ◼   ► from a understandability standpoint

00:57:07 ◼   ► than the previous one.

00:57:08 ◼   ► So, signs point in the right direction, as does the idea that they're even doing this

00:57:12 ◼   ► at all, that they're having the guts to say, "They're putting all their eggs on

00:57:15 ◼   ► baskets too. Aperture gone, iPhoto gone, Photos is the way, it's cloud backup for everything."

00:57:20 ◼   ► And then they say, "Trust us," and wink.

00:57:22 ◼   ► Right. And I think I totally agree with you that it is very important, like, how they

00:57:26 ◼   ► implement the Mac client. Things like, how does it store its files? Is there an option

00:57:32 ◼   ► somewhere to say, "Always store my entire library on this computer"? So you can do

00:57:37 ◼   ► do things like maintain your own backups.

00:57:39 ◼   ► 'Cause look, I think that's important too.

00:57:42 ◼   ► As much as I put a lot of faith in the Apple ecosystem,

00:57:45 ◼   ► I'm also not an idiot, and I will always maintain

00:57:49 ◼   ► my own backups as well, and I wouldn't use a photo system

00:57:53 ◼   ► that didn't give me that option to easily and reasonably

00:57:56 ◼   ► do that, and automatically do that.

00:57:59 ◼   ► It is very important, and I hope Apple knows that

00:58:02 ◼   ► when they're implementing this.

00:58:03 ◼   ► And this might be one of those things where it might

00:58:05 ◼   ► get worse before it gets better.

00:58:07 ◼   ► Maybe version one might not have much of that visibility or might not have the right limits

00:58:12 ◼   ► or the right options rather.

00:58:13 ◼   ► Well, like you said, like the people who care about that, that's not who this is designed

00:58:17 ◼   ► for.

00:58:18 ◼   ► And I wouldn't blame Apple for never having that feature in there.

00:58:20 ◼   ► It's just that they just, they need to get it right.

00:58:22 ◼   ► Like the rest of it.

00:58:23 ◼   ► Like they're, the big thing is there needs to be some recourse.

00:58:25 ◼   ► Say something goes weird and all your pictures are black, like mine were in photo stream

00:58:28 ◼   ► for awhile, you know, or like you just get a bunch of black squares that are the right

00:58:32 ◼   ► aspect ratios and the right sizes, but they're all black.

00:58:35 ◼   ► What do I do in that case?

00:58:37 ◼   ► Do I just stare at it and hope?

00:58:39 ◼   ► Do I delete the photo stream and reinstall it?

00:58:41 ◼   ► Do I delete all my local photos and resync them?

00:58:44 ◼   ► Like I have very, and I tried all those things and they kept coming back black.

00:58:48 ◼   ► What do I do at that point?

00:58:49 ◼   ► And if that was the only place my photos are, I'd be freaking out, right?

00:58:52 ◼   ► And so I'm not saying that, again, I'm not saying they need a way to debug this.

00:58:55 ◼   ► They just need to either get it right all the time or give people some kind of tool

00:59:00 ◼   ► to fix it when it's not.

00:59:01 ◼   ► saying it right all the time is preferable,

00:59:03 ◼   ► but maybe asking too much.

00:59:06 ◼   ► - As we move to this world of cloud stuff

00:59:08 ◼   ► and cloud hosted things,

00:59:10 ◼   ► we do lose a lot of that flexibility

00:59:13 ◼   ► and a lot of those fail safes of,

00:59:15 ◼   ► like if I want to, for example,

00:59:17 ◼   ► if I want to move my entire iTunes library

00:59:20 ◼   ► to a new computer,

00:59:22 ◼   ► the way I would always do it would be

00:59:24 ◼   ► to actually just move the entire directory over.

00:59:27 ◼   ► And it worked, like 'cause everything,

00:59:29 ◼   ► all the data it read was there.

00:59:31 ◼   ► and it was all baked into this one folder

00:59:34 ◼   ► and you could quit the app, move this folder,

00:59:37 ◼   ► restart the app, bing, all of a sudden

00:59:39 ◼   ► there's all your stuff.

00:59:40 ◼   ► Whereas something like this that's more opaque

00:59:41 ◼   ► or something that's cloud-based, you can't do that.

00:59:44 ◼   ► And so you're right, it does make it hard to do things

00:59:45 ◼   ► like restore from a backup or undo a major bulk change.

00:59:50 ◼   ► - Or like sign out of one Apple ID

00:59:52 ◼   ► and sign into another Apple ID and then you're like,

00:59:54 ◼   ► oh, is it gonna blow away all my photos

00:59:55 ◼   ► from the previous Apple ID?

00:59:56 ◼   ► Is there gonna be smart and save them?

00:59:59 ◼   ► Like iPhoto, I mean, they designed it in,

01:00:02 ◼   ► but then it kind of hid the feature.

01:00:03 ◼   ► That's why you had applications like iPhoto Library Manager,

01:00:06 ◼   ► or just hold down the option key when you launch iPhoto,

01:00:08 ◼   ► if you don't know about that,

01:00:08 ◼   ► to like pick a different library.

01:00:09 ◼   ► So we have multiple iPhoto libraries,

01:00:11 ◼   ► where we've split things off various times,

01:00:13 ◼   ► but that is not, it's even less commonly used feature,

01:00:16 ◼   ► I think.

01:00:17 ◼   ► - Right, exactly.

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01:03:50 ◼   ► - All right, so are we done with this photos thing?

01:03:52 ◼   ► - We're never done with the photos thing,

01:03:53 ◼   ► but we can be done tonight.

01:03:55 ◼   ► - Oh, that's what I meant.

01:03:56 ◼   ► I mean, we're turning into the prompt at this point.

01:03:59 ◼   ► - We're probably gonna get a mountain

01:04:00 ◼   ► of feedback on this too.

01:04:01 ◼   ► - The next exciting step in the photos thing

01:04:03 ◼   ► will be like after the release versions

01:04:07 ◼   ► of all these different OSs come out,

01:04:09 ◼   ► and I, assuming there is any upgrade path,

01:04:11 ◼   ► I try taking my iPhoto library and saying,

01:04:14 ◼   ► here you go photos, what do you make of this?

01:04:16 ◼   ► And then we wait, I suppose, and see what happens.

01:04:19 ◼   ► Does it, do I end in a functional final situation?

01:04:23 ◼   ► Does it, you know, how long does it take

01:04:25 ◼   ► to get the photos there?

01:04:26 ◼   ► You know, does it, do I require double the amount

01:04:28 ◼   ► of storage space to get to the final destination?

01:04:31 ◼   ► I don't know, that will be an exciting day.

01:04:33 ◼   ► Certainly I will do lots of backups first.

01:04:35 ◼   ► - One thing though, I mean this is a really,

01:04:37 ◼   ► really promising thing for people who have smaller devices.

01:04:41 ◼   ► Like this is, I think this is gonna dramatically reduce

01:04:44 ◼   ► the amount of space a lot of people need

01:04:45 ◼   ► on their iOS devices, which is funny,

01:04:47 ◼   ► 'cause like, you know, the rumors are this might be,

01:04:49 ◼   ► this might finally be the year where they start at 32.

01:04:51 ◼   ► - By the year they finally do a storage bump, yeah.

01:04:53 ◼   ► I keep hoping that for iTunes match,

01:04:55 ◼   ► 'cause I like iTunes match,

01:04:56 ◼   ► except when it totally destroys my installation of iTunes,

01:04:58 ◼   ► causing it to absorb gigabytes of memory

01:05:00 ◼   ► every time I launch it.

01:05:01 ◼   ► But other than that, when it works, I like it.

01:05:04 ◼   ► And I like the idea that, you know,

01:05:06 ◼   ► I enable it on my iOS devices,

01:05:08 ◼   ► because the whole idea is that

01:05:09 ◼   ► if I start to run out of space,

01:05:10 ◼   ► the OS is supposed to say,

01:05:11 ◼   ► "Oh, well, let me just start ditching some of these,

01:05:15 ◼   ► you know, some of these audio files,

01:05:16 ◼   ► because I know they're on iTunes match,

01:05:17 ◼   ► if the person listens to them, I'll just stream them down later.

01:05:21 ◼   ► You know what I mean? It's supposed to be like cash space. It's expendable.

01:05:24 ◼   ► I don't need to sync a particular playlist onto my iPod.

01:05:27 ◼   ► I can have my entire music collection available and just the songs

01:05:30 ◼   ► that I play can be there. And there's a little cloud button.

01:05:32 ◼   ► You can say download this whole playlist and stuff like that.

01:05:34 ◼   ► And I hope that doesn't mean that it's now going to refuse

01:05:37 ◼   ► to expunge from memory the ones I forcibly downloaded.

01:05:41 ◼   ► But every time I start to fill up in disk space, I'm like,

01:05:44 ◼   ► why don't you just pull things some stuff off iTunes match?

01:05:46 ◼   ► That's the kind of the point of it.

01:05:47 ◼   ► So photos I'm hoping for the same thing that I'll have access to all my photos

01:05:50 ◼   ► But that at any one time I don't guarantee that any of them are actually on the device because you know, they wouldn't all fit

01:05:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that's how it was advertised to work

01:05:59 ◼   ► We'll have to go we'll have to see what happens

01:06:01 ◼   ► But I'm pretty sure that was the whole idea was that

01:06:03 ◼   ► All your photos will be backed up as long as you subscribe to one of these plan things

01:06:07 ◼   ► And what do you get for free? You get a pretty good amount - wasn't it like 20 gigs or something?

01:06:11 ◼   ► Whatever it is. It's pointless for me. But yeah for regular people

01:06:14 ◼   ► Well it's a good starter thing to get you suckered into eventually having to pay.

01:06:17 ◼   ► Right and but yeah I think the whole idea was like this is this is a big part of I think

01:06:23 ◼   ► their solution to iOS storage management which is just start removing some of them some of

01:06:28 ◼   ► the biggest things that fill up everyone's space.

01:06:30 ◼   ► Yeah and make it so they're removable make it so they can be purged basically if space

01:06:35 ◼   ► starts to get tight because you can't really purge apps I mean they haven't gotten to that

01:06:38 ◼   ► point they'll the apps are gonna stay so if you download some big giant game.

01:06:41 ◼   ► Well, they do run the cleaning things.

01:06:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:44 ◼   ► The cleaning pass that kills all the apps temporary things

01:06:46 ◼   ► and deletes all your new standard issues.

01:06:48 ◼   ► In theory, they could delete like,

01:06:49 ◼   ► oh, we're gonna get rid of Infinity Blade

01:06:51 ◼   ► 'cause it's gigantic.

01:06:51 ◼   ► And the next time you play, we'll download after you tap.

01:06:54 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:06:55 ◼   ► It will still keep the icon there,

01:06:56 ◼   ► but when you tap it, it'll be like,

01:06:57 ◼   ► oh, actually we removed that from your system earlier.

01:06:59 ◼   ► I'll see if there's room now and download.

01:07:01 ◼   ► Can't get blood from a stone like storages.

01:07:04 ◼   ► They don't have magical transparent tiered storage

01:07:06 ◼   ► ending in the cloud quite yet,

01:07:07 ◼   ► but this is all along the path there.

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01:09:30 ◼   ► - John, you wanna tell me what you think

01:09:32 ◼   ► about the airport extreme?

01:09:34 ◼   ► - I didn't think much about it at all

01:09:35 ◼   ► because I don't have one other than I didn't like it

01:09:36 ◼   ► it as a fan, but we've discussed that in the past.

01:09:39 ◼   ► But today, someone—I saw something retweeted from Jim Ray on Twitter, I forget who retweeted

01:09:45 ◼   ► it, and it was about the new airport, you know, the big tower thing, the thing that

01:09:53 ◼   ► looks like a tissue box stood on its end, and it's designed to hold a hard drive, but

01:09:56 ◼   ► only the time capsule version holds a hard drive, but both the time capsule and the hard

01:10:03 ◼   ► hard drive-less airport, use the same case. Anyway, this was not about the fans or the

01:10:09 ◼   ► hard drive, this was about ports on the back. Do you guys load the pictures that I put in

01:10:13 ◼   ► there?

01:10:14 ◼   ► I saw that, and he's totally right.

01:10:16 ◼   ► Alright, so here's the tweet from Jim Ray, it says "design is how it works" in quotes.

01:10:21 ◼   ► "Hey Johnny" which he spelled wrong, but that's okay. "Maybe turn the ports 90 degrees so

01:10:25 ◼   ► we can actually unplug the goddamn things." And what he's talking about is the Ethernet

01:10:29 ◼   ► jacks on the back of this vertical tower airport base station. The Ethernet ports are done

01:10:36 ◼   ► so the little clicky, whatever you call it, release thing on the RJ45 things is on the

01:10:41 ◼   ► top. But the ports are stacked on top of each other, so to release the middle one you have

01:10:46 ◼   ► to wedge your finger between the middle one and the top one and get your fingernail onto

01:10:50 ◼   ► that little thing and then try to disengage it. And he's saying rotate them 90 degrees

01:10:55 ◼   ► so that all of the little whatever their release thingies would all be accessible.

01:11:00 ◼   ► They'd all be on the left side or on the right side instead of having them instead of having

01:11:04 ◼   ► to shove your fingers between the two little ports. The picture explains it better. We'll

01:11:07 ◼   ► put the picture in the show notes so you can take a look at it. And I retweeted this because

01:11:11 ◼   ► I thought this was a very good point and it reminded me of a sore spot that I have.

01:11:16 ◼   ► I'm calling it Johnny Eye of design which is not fair because he's just the head of a large design

01:11:21 ◼   ► He's not designing all these things himself. He's not even like telling people how they should be designed

01:11:26 ◼   ► He has a team of people designing them presumably he approves them or disapproves or gives advice, but it's not all his fault

01:11:31 ◼   ► But can you imagine Johnny Ive sitting around like for like 90 days working on this brand new revolutionary design for a wireless router?

01:11:38 ◼   ► Well, but the thing is like people think that he's there and he designs everything so they come out

01:11:42 ◼   ► You know, it was his idea to make the the Mac a trashcan

01:11:46 ◼   ► It was his idea to design the I'm I get like and certain things are his idea

01:11:49 ◼   ► Like he has he has certain things that are his designs, but so many other things aren't he's got an entire team

01:11:55 ◼   ► but he's the figurehead and so

01:11:57 ◼   ► I'm blaming it all on him because you know the Bucks got to stop somewhere

01:12:01 ◼   ► When I look at this, I know exactly why the ports are that way on this thing or least so I tell myself

01:12:07 ◼   ► and you know because I just go into the mind of Johnny I've or the mind of his organization that he runs and

01:12:12 ◼   ► I've looked at all the products they've made over the years and and it seems clear to me that they're like they are that way

01:12:18 ◼   ► because it looks better that way. And this is the tension, aesthetics versus usability.

01:12:23 ◼   ► And the whole design is how it works thing makes it sound like that the balance is way over,

01:12:29 ◼   ► oh usability is the most important thing and aesthetics are secondary. But if you look at

01:12:34 ◼   ► any device that came out of the Johnny Ive apple, even in the pre-Steve Jobs era, that he had a hand

01:12:40 ◼   ► in designing or was ahead of the design studio when it was made, aesthetics is a huge part of

01:12:45 ◼   ► out is designed. And far be it for me to say that aesthetic shouldn't be a factor because then

01:12:49 ◼   ► everything will look like oxo good grips, right? Oh, I bet even then there's some aesthetics

01:12:53 ◼   ► creeping in there. But there's a balance between make it usable but also make it look nice,

01:12:59 ◼   ► but hopefully don't compromise on the usability too much for the sake of aesthetics. And I think

01:13:06 ◼   ► the "Johnny Ive" apple, if we're going to call it that, has crossed the line many, many times

01:13:10 ◼   ► and is stubborn about it and will not go back. And this, the back of the airport, looks like

01:13:15 ◼   ► a situation where they cross the line. Not a big deal, because all the people on Twitter replied,

01:13:19 ◼   ► said, "Oh, how often do you plug and unplug things? Who really cares? It's not so hard to

01:13:25 ◼   ► wedge your fingers in there. If they rotated them 90 degrees it would have been more expensive,"

01:13:30 ◼   ► and all sorts of other things like that. And I mostly didn't pursue these avenues,

01:13:36 ◼   ► except for the most expensive, more expensive one, so I looked at it, I immediately went to

01:13:39 ◼   ► the iFixit teardown to see what the heck was going on inside there. And that's in another link in the

01:13:43 ◼   ► notes. And it turns out that the ports, which should not be surprising to anybody who has seen

01:13:47 ◼   ► one of these towers or the new Mac Pro, the ports are already at 45 degree angles coming off of the

01:13:54 ◼   ► printed circuit board. So there are obviously expense is not this is not like what's the

01:13:59 ◼   ► cheapest way we can make these ethernet ports pop out of this board just solder them on. They're

01:14:03 ◼   ► already coming out at a 45 degree angle and they're coming out at a 45 degree angle with the contacts

01:14:08 ◼   ► running, I don't know how to explain this, the distance from each contact to the printed circuit

01:14:16 ◼   ► board is different. So the contact closest to you when you're looking at the printed circuit board

01:14:21 ◼   ► flat is much longer than the contact closest to the board because it's in an angle that way. If

01:14:25 ◼   ► they were rotated 90 degrees as suggested it seems to me that if anything it would either be the same

01:14:30 ◼   ► price or cheaper to mount them that way because then all the contacts from the Ethernet connectors

01:14:34 ◼   ► would have equal distances to the board. But who knows, maybe it's the same price. But the point

01:14:38 ◼   ► is this device was not designed with cost concerns.

01:14:42 ◼   ► If you look at how it was constructed,

01:14:43 ◼   ► it's kind of like the Mac Pro with the hard drive

01:14:46 ◼   ► on an angle in the middle with fins

01:14:49 ◼   ► and sort of a chimney type effect.

01:14:50 ◼   ► And it's a very fancy design.

01:14:53 ◼   ► It is not made to be the cheapest possible thing

01:14:55 ◼   ► to manufacture.

01:14:55 ◼   ► Inside it looks fairly expensive.

01:15:00 ◼   ► So I'm not gonna buy cost there.

01:15:01 ◼   ► You get back to, all right, so if it's not,

01:15:04 ◼   ► if a cost is not concerned, why are these things vertical?

01:15:06 ◼   ► And I really do think it looks better when they're vertical.

01:15:09 ◼   ► It's symmetrical.

01:15:09 ◼   ► If you were to divide the device in half vertically,

01:15:12 ◼   ► if you were to draw a straight line down the middle

01:15:14 ◼   ► of these ports and split it in half,

01:15:16 ◼   ► it's symmetrical on the right and left side.

01:15:17 ◼   ► Whereas if the ports were sideways,

01:15:19 ◼   ► the rest of the device would be vertically symmetrical,

01:15:21 ◼   ► but then the ports would not be.

01:15:22 ◼   ► One half would have the little flanges,

01:15:23 ◼   ► one half wouldn't have it.

01:15:24 ◼   ► And this is not that big a deal,

01:15:28 ◼   ► but it's emblematic of the line

01:15:32 ◼   ► that I think the modern Apple crosses many other times.

01:15:36 ◼   ► And I put a couple of examples,

01:15:37 ◼   ► other examples in the show notes

01:15:38 ◼   ► that I've complained about previously on the show.

01:15:41 ◼   ► The MacBook keyboards, this is a little bit economics too.

01:15:44 ◼   ► So you can throw Tim Cook under the bus for this one as well.

01:15:47 ◼   ► Why does the 15 inch and why did back in the day,

01:15:50 ◼   ► the 17 inch one have the exact same keyboard

01:15:52 ◼   ► as the smaller model?

01:15:53 ◼   ► Makes no sense.

01:15:54 ◼   ► There's no reason that the current 15 inch MacBook Air

01:15:57 ◼   ► can't have full size arrow keys.

01:15:58 ◼   ► Oh, there's a reason,

01:15:59 ◼   ► 'cause they wanna use the same exact keyboard they do

01:16:01 ◼   ► on all the other MacBooks, and on the Airs for that matter.

01:16:05 ◼   ► There's an economy of scale there,

01:16:07 ◼   ► but it's also making the larger product worse,

01:16:11 ◼   ► most charitably to save money, and least charitably,

01:16:14 ◼   ► because if you put full-size arrow keys,

01:16:16 ◼   ► then the keyboard wouldn't be symmetrical anymore,

01:16:18 ◼   ► and it looks ugly.

01:16:19 ◼   ► So that's why it doesn't have full-size arrow keys,

01:16:20 ◼   ► 'cause the little inverted T would be on one side,

01:16:22 ◼   ► but not on the other.

01:16:23 ◼   ► Or any sort of key-type arrangement

01:16:25 ◼   ► to try to get a reasonable inverted T in there

01:16:28 ◼   ► would necessarily bump out somewhere

01:16:30 ◼   ► or push some other keys around or otherwise be awkward.

01:16:33 ◼   ► Ports in the back of the iMac,

01:16:36 ◼   ► it's great being able to plug things

01:16:37 ◼   ► into the front of my old style tower Mac Pro,

01:16:39 ◼   ► even if I have to bend down a little bit for it.

01:16:42 ◼   ► Having ports accessible to you

01:16:43 ◼   ► when you wanna plug something in quickly is great.

01:16:45 ◼   ► The iMac has all the ports in the back

01:16:47 ◼   ► because it's prettier.

01:16:48 ◼   ► Every time you wanna plug and unplug something,

01:16:49 ◼   ► you gotta dig around back there.

01:16:51 ◼   ► It is not comfortable, it's not a good experience.

01:16:53 ◼   ► - That's actually one of the frequent annoyances

01:16:55 ◼   ► with the new Mac Pro is that there isn't,

01:16:57 ◼   ► I don't have two front USB ports anymore.

01:17:00 ◼   ► And I use those all the time on my old Mac Pro.

01:17:03 ◼   ► And the new one, if I want a USB port,

01:17:06 ◼   ► I need to turn the thing around and go to the back

01:17:08 ◼   ► and get fingerprints all over it.

01:17:09 ◼   ► And it's not nearly as useful as having them

01:17:12 ◼   ► right there on the front, but I recognize that

01:17:14 ◼   ► it would not look as good if it had USB ports

01:17:17 ◼   ► on the front side of it.

01:17:18 ◼   ► - Now that's a little bit of a size constraint too,

01:17:20 ◼   ► 'cause that machine got so much smaller

01:17:21 ◼   ► that so many things become, oh, the answer is now

01:17:23 ◼   ► I have a breakout box.

01:17:24 ◼   ► And so you could have a little breakout USB hub

01:17:26 ◼   ► and stick that on your desk somewhere.

01:17:27 ◼   ► Like that's always the answer for that tiny little Mac Pro

01:17:29 ◼   ► Oh, you can't fit it inside and you can't fit it on but you can connect the cable to and then have a peripheral

01:17:35 ◼   ► I give it a little bit of an out for the size thing, but it's similar in

01:17:38 ◼   ► You're mentioning how weird it is to try to plug things into the back of it like are are the ports aligned?

01:17:45 ◼   ► Along a line that goes through the center of the Mac or are they I don't even know the answer to this you can tell

01:17:51 ◼   ► Me are they are the ports parallel to each other in the two rows or are they all?

01:17:57 ◼   ► perpendicular is the horizontal surface of the ports perpendicular to a tangent of the circle I

01:18:02 ◼   ► Don't think I know what you mean. However, the the the surface that the ports are on is curved with the case

01:18:08 ◼   ► Right, but what are the ports like are the two USB ports?

01:18:12 ◼   ► Parallel to each other if you were to extend lines out along the USB ports

01:18:17 ◼   ► Would they be parallel to each other or would they would they the lines intersect they would diverge?

01:18:23 ◼   ► Yeah, because they basically the two USB ports are pointed in different directions. Yeah, because they follow the curvature, right?

01:18:28 ◼   ► So you could make the two USB ports both exactly like flat and going forward instead

01:18:34 ◼   ► They both go towards the center

01:18:35 ◼   ► And so you have to sort of calculate the angle when you're plugging in back there

01:18:38 ◼   ► So your cables jut out of it at angles instead of driving out stream and all the ports feel the same too

01:18:42 ◼   ► which so you have like

01:18:43 ◼   ► You have to turn it around and look because all like all the ports are

01:18:46 ◼   ► Almost the same size and all feel the same like you have you have the four USBs and then the six thunderbolts right next to each

01:18:52 ◼   ► other. Everything's very close to each other. And so yeah, it's not made to be done blindly.

01:18:57 ◼   ► Someone in the chat room is saying that USB ports are parallel. We're all using the wrong

01:19:01 ◼   ► terms here. I'm visualizing the right thing in my head. But anyway, what we're saying is that if

01:19:05 ◼   ► you took that USB port and pushed it really, really hard and just tunneled through the device

01:19:09 ◼   ► in exactly the direction of the port, it would hit the center of the Mac Pro. And that's true for both

01:19:13 ◼   ► of the ports. And they would intersect. That's correct. Yeah. And if you plugged in two cables

01:19:17 ◼   ► to them that were not flexible at all, were just straight rods, they would form diverging lines.

01:19:21 ◼   ► Right, and so what we were saying for parallel was the other option they could have gone with is that the USB ports were exactly parallel

01:19:26 ◼   ► And if you were to extend cables out from them forever perfectly stiff, they would never hit each other

01:19:30 ◼   ► That's what we're talking about. Anyway, I don't know if that's a compromise for aesthetics

01:19:35 ◼   ► but you know

01:19:36 ◼   ► The ports in the back of the iMac stand out because the iMac is such a massive machine and it's supposed to be a home

01:19:41 ◼   ► Machine it's the type of thing that people might plug and unplug things in but they had to be hidden there

01:19:44 ◼   ► I was gonna pick the Mac cube

01:19:45 ◼   ► But that's kind of a low blow where the ports were not only on the back

01:19:50 ◼   ► but underneath on the back and it was super hard to get at those because it looked better and the final I put in there

01:19:55 ◼   ► was a

01:19:56 ◼   ► IOS 7 buttons, I mean that they got rid of the button outline because it looked nicer

01:20:00 ◼   ► But then it wasn't always clear whether something was a button or not

01:20:03 ◼   ► I'm not saying these are like fatal flaws and that or that they're always over this line

01:20:07 ◼   ► I'm saying there is a line and you have to decide where in that line you fall and I feel like my

01:20:11 ◼   ► opinion of good design is

01:20:15 ◼   ► closer to usability or at the usability side of the spectrum in that in the challenge in the

01:20:21 ◼   ► Tension between aesthetics and usability and I appreciate the aesthetics. I like that they are pretty but

01:20:26 ◼   ► I'm not just designing them in a lab and looking at plans and

01:20:30 ◼   ► Looking at the beautiful polished fingerprint free thing on a pedestal and saying yeah, my work is done

01:20:34 ◼   ► I'm using the things every day and that's where the aesthetics start to fade and

01:20:39 ◼   ► You know not so much because I don't want some ugly PC tower. Like I like the aesthetics. I like having beautiful things

01:20:44 ◼   ► on my desk. They make me feel better to have nice things like, I mean, Marker, you talked about looking at your little Mac Pro.

01:20:49 ◼   ► It makes you happy to have that thing there. But there's a line between that and usability.

01:20:55 ◼   ► It depends on how much do you value that niceness over difficulty of getting into ports.

01:20:59 ◼   ► And, you know, the other one I wanted to mention is the edges of the MacBooks,

01:21:04 ◼   ► where they used to be super sharp when they were unibody things, and you're not supposed to rest your wrist,

01:21:08 ◼   ► please, everybody, if you're resting your wrist on something when you type, do not rest your wrist.

01:21:11 ◼   ► But the bottom line is people do occasionally rest their wrists, and it was way too sharp

01:21:15 ◼   ► And why because it looked really nice it really did it looked very elegant, but there's a line there

01:21:20 ◼   ► It's like that mean they took the edge off in later models, so they said okay. Let's not quite make it that sharp

01:21:24 ◼   ► I still think it's a little bit over the line in terms of

01:21:26 ◼   ► It looks like a beautiful piece of sculpture

01:21:28 ◼   ► But it's not quite as pleasing to handle as it would be if it was a little bit more rounded over

01:21:32 ◼   ► But anyway, these are just a couple examples sure people come with their own. I just feel like this balance

01:21:37 ◼   ► That we have a difference of opinion if I ever got to interview Johnny I if this is all I would talk to him about

01:21:41 ◼   ► Is how do you manage the tension between?

01:21:43 ◼   ► Aesthetics and usability and why are you so wrong in all these cases?

01:21:47 ◼   ► We'll be a great interview. He would love it. Yeah, I

01:21:50 ◼   ► Think everyone else would love it at least no one ever talks to him about design

01:21:54 ◼   ► That's a shame like when they get interviews with them

01:21:56 ◼   ► They just talk to him in a way that he can speak in generalities. No one ever I mean, that's not an interview

01:21:59 ◼   ► That's why I'm a terrible interviewer like an interview is you let the interviewer talk about things

01:22:03 ◼   ► You don't have an axe to grind with them. But anyway yours is an interrogation. Yeah

01:22:06 ◼   ► Yeah, mine would be more of an interrogation style, less of an—yeah, this is why I don't

01:22:11 ◼   ► interview people. But anyway, I think I would enjoy it at least.

01:22:14 ◼   ► I think, honestly, most people would enjoy listening to an interrogation, but most people

01:22:19 ◼   ► would not enjoy being interrogated.

01:22:22 ◼   ► I think it would be a fruitful discussion, because I'm sure he has reasons behind all

01:22:25 ◼   ► these things, and it's not like one is totally wrong and one is totally right. It's just

01:22:28 ◼   ► where do we draw that line and why? And I mean, maybe I'm alone in thinking that I

01:22:33 ◼   ► is a little bit farther on the aesthetics

01:22:36 ◼   ► towards the aesthetic spectrum than I think most people are.

01:22:39 ◼   ► We all love aesthetics, we all love beautiful Macs,

01:22:41 ◼   ► we all love our beautiful iOS devices,

01:22:43 ◼   ► we obviously value aesthetics probably way more

01:22:45 ◼   ► than the average person we're willing to pay

01:22:47 ◼   ► all this money for,

01:22:47 ◼   ► like in just the hardware, the software, everything,

01:22:50 ◼   ► we place value on this, it's just that there is,

01:22:54 ◼   ► sometimes it just seems to go a little bit too far

01:22:56 ◼   ► in one little tiny area and you feel like

01:22:59 ◼   ► I would give up that little aesthetic flourish,

01:23:02 ◼   ► I would give up perfectly symmetrical ports

01:23:03 ◼   ► to just turn them 90 degrees.

01:23:04 ◼   ► Even if I don't unplug and plug these things,

01:23:06 ◼   ► the three times a year when I have to reach back there

01:23:09 ◼   ► to unplug something, it drives me nuts.

01:23:10 ◼   ► And I say, "Oh, Johnny,

01:23:11 ◼   ► "if you just could have rotated them 90 degrees."

01:23:13 ◼   ► I never look at the back of this thing anyway.

01:23:15 ◼   ► It would make life so much easier.

01:23:17 ◼   ► And he would be tasked with defending

01:23:19 ◼   ► the beauty of the symmetrical arrangement

01:23:22 ◼   ► of something that people don't look at

01:23:24 ◼   ► and doesn't give them as much joy as, say,

01:23:26 ◼   ► a super shiny Mac Pro does.

01:23:27 ◼   ► - Well, also like, "Oh, Johnny,

01:23:29 ◼   ► "could you maybe add more than three ethernet ports?"

01:23:31 ◼   ► like really on a top of the line wireless router.

01:23:35 ◼   ► - I don't think he's picking that.

01:23:36 ◼   ► I'm not gonna blame him for the number of ports.

01:23:38 ◼   ► - Well, but it's like, you know, like you have to,

01:23:39 ◼   ► and this is a part of design, you have to consider design

01:23:42 ◼   ► in practice, in real life, what people actually do,

01:23:44 ◼   ► applied design, right?

01:23:46 ◼   ► And the reality is, if you only have three ethernet ports,

01:23:50 ◼   ► a lot of people are going to ruin your awesome design

01:23:52 ◼   ► by putting a big fat ugly switch right next to it.

01:23:55 ◼   ► Similar thing with the Mac Pro, like,

01:23:56 ◼   ► if you don't build in enough stuff people use

01:23:58 ◼   ► or enough storage capacity or enough things,

01:24:00 ◼   ► enough capabilities, you're gonna have this beautiful metal cylinder sitting next to the

01:24:04 ◼   ► crappiest blue LED filled USB hub and 10,000 Thunderbolt enclosures and drive enclosures

01:24:11 ◼   ► and all this crap. That ruins the design. To me, that's actually a design flaw. If you're

01:24:18 ◼   ► making a design that doesn't account for real life and then in real life it will simply

01:24:22 ◼   ► become worse.

01:24:23 ◼   ► And see, when I think of these designers' desks, and I think this was even mentioned

01:24:27 ◼   ► in one of the Johnny Ives books, maybe about his desk or someone else, but when I think

01:24:29 ◼   ► of their desk, I think of them arranging their beautifully designed products in the number

01:24:34 ◼   ► and like, that they would buy special white ethernet cables to exactly fit this. They

01:24:38 ◼   ► would arrange just on their desk, they would just have their MacBook and they would probably

01:24:42 ◼   ► not even have a cable to a big display and maybe like these two beautiful little speakers.

01:24:46 ◼   ► What they would do is say, if this doesn't have enough ports and this doesn't have any

01:24:50 ◼   ► items, then I don't want it. Because having that item would destroy the aesthetic value,

01:24:56 ◼   ► not purity, but like just that that this is a beautiful arrangement and I

01:25:00 ◼   ► Would really like it if I could have an extra hard drive or more USB ports

01:25:03 ◼   ► But I do not want that feature enough to take an ugly USB hub and shove it on here

01:25:07 ◼   ► You know, I that's that's where they're drawing the line. They say maybe it would be nice to have more USB ports

01:25:12 ◼   ► But I'm willing to forego the USB ports to have a nicer desk arrangement and I make a different value judgment for my desk

01:25:19 ◼   ► I'm gonna say I would rather have the USB port despite the fact that I can't stand how ugly it is. Like you just said

01:25:25 ◼   ► And at that point, then you revisit,

01:25:28 ◼   ► and why does this have so few USB ports?

01:25:29 ◼   ► Or why does it have so few Ethernet ports?

01:25:31 ◼   ► Maybe that's a cost thing,

01:25:32 ◼   ► maybe that's a feature thing or whatever,

01:25:33 ◼   ► but those are the trade-offs.

01:25:34 ◼   ► Even the sides of a lot of the MacBooks,

01:25:36 ◼   ► you're like, hmm, this 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro

01:25:39 ◼   ► probably had room for one more USB port on the side,

01:25:41 ◼   ► and it would really make my life easier.

01:25:43 ◼   ► Again, you can't tell if that's cost-concerned

01:25:46 ◼   ► or space constraints inside there or whatever,

01:25:47 ◼   ► but some issues are more cut and dry,

01:25:49 ◼   ► and I think the keyboarder on the 15-inch

01:25:52 ◼   ► is probably my biggest issue.

01:25:55 ◼   ► Economics aside, this is an expensive piece of hardware,

01:25:57 ◼   ► giving me full-size arrow keys,

01:25:58 ◼   ► giving me a different keyboard.

01:26:00 ◼   ► - Well, although I can also see the benefit there of,

01:26:04 ◼   ► as a user, that all the keyboards

01:26:06 ◼   ► and all the Apple products are all the same keyboard,

01:26:08 ◼   ► like that, or they're close enough, rather, but--

01:26:10 ◼   ► - I'm rotating through my fleet of Apple devices.

01:26:12 ◼   ► How many laptops do people have?

01:26:14 ◼   ► I'm willing to say, when I'm on the 13-inch one,

01:26:17 ◼   ► I will use the compact keyboard.

01:26:19 ◼   ► When I'm on the 15-inch, I want the expensive keyboard.

01:26:21 ◼   ► Like, I mean, at that point,

01:26:22 ◼   ► why not just have all of your Macs have

01:26:23 ◼   ► whatever the smallest screen any of them have.

01:26:25 ◼   ► Because then your screen arrangement

01:26:27 ◼   ► will always be the same.

01:26:28 ◼   ► - Oh boy, all right.

01:26:29 ◼   ► We should probably end the show.

01:26:31 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:26:33 ◼   ► Igloo, Hover, and Lynda.com.

01:26:36 ◼   ► And we will see you next week.

01:26:38 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:26:41 ◼   ► Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:26:46 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:26:48 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:26:51 ◼   ► John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:26:56 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:26:59 ◼   ► It was accidental (accidental)

01:27:02 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:27:07 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:27:16 ◼   ► So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:27:20 ◼   ► Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-Racusa

01:27:28 ◼   ► It's accidental (It's accidental)

01:27:31 ◼   ► They didn't mean to (It's accidental)

01:27:36 ◼   ► Tech.com so long

01:27:40 ◼   ► Hey guys. Oh yeah, you're here. You're still here. Hi. Hi.

01:27:45 ◼   ► Show butts still up. That's amazing. I thought they said

01:27:48 ◼   ► it. I thought they said it died. I saw a message in the

01:27:50 ◼   ► chat room like an hour ago that said it was down. They're

01:27:54 ◼   ► crazy. Does it have any data in it or is it just like they're

01:27:58 ◼   ► empty? No, it's real. It's there, man. You don't give me

01:28:02 ◼   ► any respect. Alright, alright. I'm loading the page now but

01:28:05 ◼   ► I'm gonna see the word connecting in a really big font.

01:28:08 ◼   ► - You will no matter what.

01:28:09 ◼   ► - No, actually I'm just gonna see

01:28:11 ◼   ► the loading animation in Safari.

01:28:12 ◼   ► Safari does this to me occasionally

01:28:14 ◼   ► where I will try to load a page

01:28:16 ◼   ► and it makes me think that it thinks

01:28:18 ◼   ► the OS is out of file descriptors.

01:28:20 ◼   ► But I'm like, why is it waiting?

01:28:22 ◼   ► This site should be fast, why is it not opening?

01:28:25 ◼   ► And I know the system is not out of file descriptors

01:28:27 ◼   ► that would manifest in a different way,

01:28:28 ◼   ► but I've actually run into situations

01:28:29 ◼   ► where the system has been out of file descriptors

01:28:31 ◼   ► because I run local databases and that happens sometimes

01:28:33 ◼   ► if you don't adjust your kernel parameters.

01:28:36 ◼   ► And it'll just be sitting there.

01:28:37 ◼   ► And in the time that I'm waiting for the Safari page to load,

01:28:40 ◼   ► I will copy the URL out of the address bar,

01:28:42 ◼   ► go over to Chrome, make a new tab,

01:28:43 ◼   ► paste it in, load the web page.

01:28:45 ◼   ► Loads instantly.

01:28:46 ◼   ► I go back to Safari, and it'll still be waiting.

01:28:48 ◼   ► Anyway, now it says list is more.

01:28:50 ◼   ► The blue gradient in the Safari address bar

01:28:52 ◼   ► is about a little bit less than halfway.

01:28:55 ◼   ► I still see nothing underneath the little nav bar.

01:28:58 ◼   ► Still waiting for it to load.

01:28:59 ◼   ► You should restore your phone.

01:29:01 ◼   ► I agree.

01:29:02 ◼   ► I'm going to do it right now.

01:29:03 ◼   ► I'm going to take this text.

01:29:04 ◼   ► I'm going to go over to Chrome.

01:29:06 ◼   ► Paste in the URL, load it, it says connecting,

01:29:09 ◼   ► titles have loaded.

01:29:09 ◼   ► Boom, done.

01:29:11 ◼   ► Let me go back to Safari, see how it's doing.

01:29:13 ◼   ► Oh, it's finally loaded.

01:29:14 ◼   ► - Wow.

01:29:15 ◼   ► - People wonder why I run both Safari and Chrome all day.

01:29:18 ◼   ► This is why.

01:29:20 ◼   ► - So now that it has survived an entire show,

01:29:23 ◼   ► because even if it craps out now, I'm counting it.

01:29:25 ◼   ► - Is there a sort by votes?

01:29:28 ◼   ► - No, and that's exactly what I was about to say,

01:29:29 ◼   ► is I think the next step is sort by votes.

01:29:32 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, there's no sort by,

01:29:33 ◼   ► what's the point of the show bot

01:29:34 ◼   ► if there's no sort by votes?

01:29:35 ◼   ► Because I wanted to make sure the showbot could live John.

01:29:38 ◼   ► I wanted life to find a way.

01:29:41 ◼   ► Can I complain about the layout again?

01:29:42 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know.

01:29:43 ◼   ► I, you can, because I don't remember.

01:29:45 ◼   ► I took notes on a couple of them and I did change it.

01:29:47 ◼   ► I like that.

01:29:48 ◼   ► They're not centered line anymore, but you have, you have a number.

01:29:52 ◼   ► Then sometimes you have a blue plus or minus thing that I can't

01:29:56 ◼   ► tell if it's a control or something.

01:29:57 ◼   ► Then you have a title, then you have author and time.

01:30:00 ◼   ► So the time fine, whatever author seems to work.

01:30:03 ◼   ► The titles are OK, a little bit close to votes, but I have no idea what's in the votes column.

01:30:07 ◼   ► I see a number in the blue.

01:30:09 ◼   ► What is the blue plus one sometimes there for?

01:30:11 ◼   ► It's to vote.

01:30:12 ◼   ► So this is the Johnny Ive again.

01:30:14 ◼   ► I could not tell these were controls, but because you made the text blue, I'm supposed

01:30:17 ◼   ► to surmise that this is a button.

01:30:18 ◼   ► I suppose I could mouse over and see the hand cursor as well, but that is not obvious to

01:30:23 ◼   ► me as a control at all.

01:30:24 ◼   ► So you'd rather see like an up arrow or something?

01:30:26 ◼   ► I don't know, something that looks like a control.

01:30:28 ◼   ► I mean, that's the challenge.

01:30:29 ◼   ► Like it used to be the way you made something look like a control is you drew a little puffy

01:30:32 ◼   ► fake 3D mound, you know, like you drew something that was raised or beveled or shaded or seemed to be raised, you know,

01:30:40 ◼   ► like you drew something that looked like you could press it in and then the iOS 7 thing is no, just change the text color

01:30:45 ◼   ► No border needed doesn't need to be raised doesn't need to be anything. That's fair

01:30:49 ◼   ► It looks like uh based on my list and i've not yet looked at Brad Schoetz's list

01:30:54 ◼   ► Uh laughing at your showbot with you has the most votes

01:30:57 ◼   ► Showbot lives is number one. No, it's not sorted. Oh god

01:31:01 ◼   ► (laughter)

01:31:04 ◼   ► - Can we go over the working show bot

01:31:05 ◼   ► and sort these titles somehow?

01:31:06 ◼   ► - Oh, man.

01:31:09 ◼   ► - You gotta have sorting.

01:31:10 ◼   ► What good is it if it's no sorting?

01:31:12 ◼   ► The first thing you do is sort by votes.

01:31:14 ◼   ► - No, the first thing you do is keep them.

01:31:16 ◼   ► Keep them away.

01:31:17 ◼   ► (laughter)

01:31:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's like a speed and correctness

01:31:20 ◼   ► and you went for speed.

01:31:21 ◼   ► - No, I went for the thing that doesn't self-destruct.