0:00:00I'll stall by saying the showbot is back.
0:00:03- For how long?
0:00:04- Yeah, probably not much longer.
0:00:06There have been a few poll requests
0:00:08from a couple different people who, as usual,
0:00:11I don't have their names in front of me because I'm a jerk,
0:00:13but we can all laugh together
0:00:16when this goes down momentarily.
0:00:18- Well, we're laughing with you, not at you.
0:00:21- I think it's both, but I don't blame you.
0:00:23- Laughing at your showbot with you.
0:00:25(laughing)
0:00:27- There's no known vulnerabilities left, right?
0:00:29Uh, known and no, but I'm sure that they exist nevertheless.
0:00:33So you read Zaro Boogs, you know Zaro Boogs?
0:00:36Nope.
0:00:37That's alright.
0:00:38We can count that as the pop culture reference for the show if you'd like.
0:00:40Because it's kind of pop culture, kind of programery.
0:00:42I'll put it in the show notes and then you guys will know what it means.
0:00:45Probably still won't.
0:00:48Follow up.
0:00:49Uh, last week, I think it was last week, we talked about Google's material UI that they
0:00:54demoed at the Google I/O keynote.
0:00:57And I mentioned that one of the things they showed in the keynote that I thought was neat
0:01:00was that they want this UI to be the same on the web and on their phones.
0:01:06And so they had a web version of it.
0:01:08And this is a website.
0:01:10I don't even know if it's an official Google website, but it's a website.
0:01:12And you can go to it and view the web version of a lot of the controls that Google showed
0:01:18in their presentation.
0:01:19Did you guys check this site out, preferably in Chrome, I suppose?
0:01:22I have it in Chrome right now, but I have not looked previously.
0:01:26I'll click around in it and see what you think.
0:01:28I mean, it looks like the stuff you saw up on the screen immediately on-- this was another
0:01:33thing spawned from Twitter today because Don Lodzki sent me this on Twitter and then I
0:01:37retweeted it and a bunch of other people responded and of course all the people who follow me
0:01:41true to form jumped on the fact that you can't click on the labels to activate the checkboxes,
0:01:46which is quite egregious, but in the web world it could just be that they didn't do the label,
0:01:51you know, four equals ID of the checkbox thing.
0:01:54Or these could be entirely custom controls, I haven't even looked at the source to see
0:01:57if there's actually any HTML.
0:02:00So anyway, I don't blame them for that.
0:02:01Mostly what I'm looking at is, does this UI feel, for lack of a better word, snappy?
0:02:07And I think it does, I think the animations are smooth.
0:02:10Yeah, but they take too long.
0:02:12Well yeah, but that's not a performance issue, that's like a decision, that's kind of like
0:02:16in iOS 7 where I have the transition things turned off, even though they don't take any
0:02:19shorter.
0:02:20I have that for the zooming effect or whatever.
0:02:22But anyway, that's like, they're deciding how long these things go.
0:02:25It's not like they're taking too long because they're slow.
0:02:26Well, and remember iOS 7.0, things did take too long.
0:02:30In 7.1 they fixed it, well they improved it.
0:02:33They tightened everything up and they said, "We made everything faster."
0:02:35Which they did by, you know, tweaking two values.
0:02:37But you know, Apple didn't really get those perfect either on step one.
0:02:41There's still a few areas where there's like unnecessarily long animations in OS X and
0:02:46in iOS.
0:02:47Well, there's like, you know, like I mentioned with turning off the reduce motion or whatever
0:02:51where it doesn't reportedly does not change the duration at all but it feels
0:02:54faster because it's a crossfade instead of a zoom or whatever there's lots of
0:02:59things you can do perception wise to handle that but this interface also
0:03:02shows off the big honking like ripple effect thing so you can tell where you
0:03:08clicked or the buttons having a ripple go across them I'm still not a fan
0:03:12having clicked around in it but I am reasonably impressed with the
0:03:17performance I wouldn't complain if I was clicking around on this like it doesn't
0:03:20look like a native control, doesn't feel like a native control, but it doesn't feel
0:03:24slow or clunky either. So it reduces all my complaints, not to technological ones,
0:03:28but to design complaints, which I think is a reasonable achievement. Like if what
0:03:32they're looking for is this should be exactly the same on the web and native. I
0:03:36haven't tried the native one, but I can't imagine it being any more or less
0:03:40responsive than this, so then you're just switch over to complaining about the
0:03:44actual design decisions. But it looks to me like they've achieved reasonable
0:03:48parity of performance between the platforms.
0:03:50- You know, I don't like if you look at the buttons
0:03:54and I'm looking at the raised button,
0:03:55the colored raised button where the kind of ripple effect
0:03:58is most obvious or at least as far as I can tell.
0:04:01I don't like that it doesn't look like
0:04:02you're depressing the button.
0:04:04Like if you're gonna have a raised button,
0:04:06it should get pressed when you tap it or click it.
0:04:10- Right, if anything, because the shadow gets larger
0:04:12as you tap it, so it looks like the button
0:04:15being raised up off of the page for a moment, but it's not moving, so it just kind of looks
0:04:22spatially wrong.
0:04:23Yeah, the z-index thing is weird. Like, if I understand what Casey's saying about the
0:04:26depress thing, but wouldn't that be like, wouldn't that change the z-value and then
0:04:31like momentarily it would be putting—I don't know, I'm trying to figure out their friggin'
0:04:35metaphor—but yeah, it is—this is what they've chosen to do. Like, you're not pressing the
0:04:39button down, you're merely activating the button, and so a shimmer goes across the button,
0:04:44the button does not move. It's kind of like those touch sensitive buttons, you guys probably
0:04:49don't remember this but way back when on televisions my grandfather had one of these, they had
0:04:52buttons on them that did not move in and out when you pressed them. They were like touch
0:04:56sensitive buttons, it was like a metal ring with a metal contact in the middle and you
0:04:59just touched them with your finger and it would activate to change the channel, but
0:05:02they would not actually push down and these were both on the television and on the remote
0:05:05and it was amazing technology in whatever year it was, 1986, but did not catch on for
0:05:11for obvious reasons because people want buttons that press down, like the home button on your
0:05:15iOS device.
0:05:16Yeah, I think we're just, like this is the kind of thing, it's hard to tell in a demo
0:05:20here, you know, in this artificially created demo on a webpage, which is not the intended
0:05:25use of this. I mean, I know it's a way you can use these things, but it's, obviously
0:05:29this is made for touch devices first. And, you know, this is the kind of thing where
0:05:33we're, you know, we're just not going to be able to really know how good it is because
0:05:38is none of us use Android full time.
0:05:39But we got a few people complaining about the way
0:05:42that we talked about Google last week.
0:05:44And I think it's worth pointing out
0:05:47and kind of telling ourselves as well,
0:05:49like the world of tech is really big.
0:05:51And no individual person or even small groups like this,
0:05:56it's hard to get like good, adequate coverage
0:06:01of everything in detail.
0:06:02We like to talk about things in great detail.
0:06:04We are all extremely focused, well for the most part,
0:06:07but we are extreme nerds at least.
0:06:09And so we will go into depth on crazy topics
0:06:14to crazy levels of detail.
0:06:16And that has to necessarily be at the exclusion of others.
0:06:20It's like nobody can be an expert in all programming
0:06:23because programming is massive.
0:06:25Maybe in the '70s you might have been able
0:06:27to become an expert in almost everything that was out there.
0:06:30Now that industry is simply too large.
0:06:34You can't be an expert in all programming
0:06:36because there's more out there than you have time
0:06:40to even look at or learn.
0:06:42You know, you have to at some point reject certain things
0:06:46implicitly just because you're choosing
0:06:48to focus your attention on something in particular.
0:06:51I don't think we should feel like we're barred
0:06:53from talking about things that we aren't experts in.
0:06:56Anything that sounded like we were doing that last week
0:06:58was our mistake.
0:06:59You know, I don't, I think I was doing
0:07:04a pretty reasonable job of disclaimers and being humble
0:07:09and giving the benefit of the doubt,
0:07:10but that's been a very unpopular opinion of me recently.
0:07:13Apparently I'm not doing that very well
0:07:16in almost everything I do.
0:07:18So I don't know if it's my problem
0:07:21or everyone else's problem.
0:07:22It's probably some of both, honestly.
0:07:24But we can't be expected to be experts on everything
0:07:29and we don't need to give everything equal time.
0:07:33And I think that's very important for all of us,
0:07:35both us and the audience, to understand
0:07:38and to be on the same page
0:07:39and to be in the same parking lot about.
0:07:41We, am I using that right?
0:07:44- No, that's okay. - We need to drive
0:07:45into the parking garage, level two.
0:07:47- Oh my god. - And maybe,
0:07:50and get one of those little tickets
0:07:51that you pay on the way out.
0:07:53- We need to have take your co-hosts to work day
0:07:56with you and me. (laughing)
0:07:59Just see how long you'll last.
0:08:02How long until your co-host gets fired from the job you didn't even have?"
0:08:07I think it's simpler than Marco.
0:08:09I think you're looking too deeply within yourself to figure this one out.
0:08:13It probably comes down to talking negatively about something that it's clear that you
0:08:18don't know a lot about.
0:08:20And that's the easy attack for people who are sort of on that team, is that "I don't
0:08:24like you saying bad things about the thing that I like.
0:08:26And by the way, you also don't know as much as I do about the thing that I like.
0:08:30Therefore, you're stupid for saying
0:08:32that you don't like the thing that I like.
0:08:34Which may be true.
0:08:35Maybe if you knew it better, you would like it better.
0:08:37But just as easily, it could be that you
0:08:39know enough about it to know that you don't like it.
0:08:41And that's just an easy avenue of an attack.
0:08:43So when you dismiss Android, or I call Android phones crappy
0:08:48or whatever, if you're on the Android team
0:08:50and you care whether other people like Android, which
0:08:53is some other thing in and of itself,
0:08:54then you're going to say, well, if you just knew it better.
0:08:57That's the nice way to say it.
0:08:58And the unkind way to say it is, you guys
0:08:59nothing about Android, you should not talk about Android because if you, you know, you
0:09:03say bad things about it, but it's clear that you guys don't even have Android phones, so
0:09:08stop talking about it. But that stuff doesn't bother me because the people who are on teams,
0:09:12like the partisans, the people who care, whether other people like Android stuff or Apple stuff
0:09:17or anything like that, there's a million of those, you're not going to change those people.
0:09:21What you do want to be is fair to the stuff, like, and not because anyone's on any particular
0:09:26but you don't want to misrepresent anything.
0:09:27And I think the criticism that we got that I think was not fair,
0:09:32but it was coming from a good place, was that we didn't, for instance,
0:09:36mention that Android has more market share than Apple.
0:09:39And we didn't mention that because we assume everybody already knows that,
0:09:43not because we don't know it and not because we're trying to deny it.
0:09:46But I can understand if you're coming at it, not having that background and sort of,
0:09:49you know, if you don't share those assumptions with us,
0:09:51then you could say they're misrepresenting Android,
0:09:54and making it seem like it is the inferior, lower selling phone platform.
0:09:59In reality--
0:10:00- Which we never said.
0:10:01- I know, exactly, but it's like we all know what we know,
0:10:03and a lot of our regular listeners know what we know.
0:10:05But if you're a new listener, you may be thinking,
0:10:07these guys are making it seem like Android is the loser,
0:10:09when really Android has the biggest market share.
0:10:11I try not to get too bogged down on those things.
0:10:13Anyway, most people were just yelling at Marcos,
0:10:15like, I just go onto the next email at that point.
0:10:17- Well, I think it's a topic worth addressing,
0:10:19because it's going to keep coming up here and there,
0:10:21up here and there where, you know, somebody gets upset that we didn't cover X, Y, or Z,
0:10:25or that we didn't consider their team when discussing topic X because we covered somebody
0:10:31else's team and they perceived that as a slight to them. And it's worth a disclaimer that when
0:10:37we talk about Android, none of us use it. But I don't think that removes our ability to talk
0:10:43about it intelligently. I think it's something we have to consider when we're talking about it
0:10:47intelligently, but I think we usually have.
0:10:49We shouldn't be afraid to talk about it
0:10:51or, you know, banned by our audience from talking about it
0:10:55as long as we keep that in mind.
0:10:56As long as we keep in mind, you know, none of us use it,
0:10:58so we can't really say in great detail about these things,
0:11:01but it is a major force in our market,
0:11:03and it would be, it would almost be stupid
0:11:07and negligent of us not to ever talk about it.
0:11:10- So this discussion has given me time
0:11:11to right-click on that little demo page,
0:11:13and I do not see an input HTML element
0:11:15anywhere inside on that checkbox.
0:11:17It's all div, Canvas style, which is fine.
0:11:20Like I was just wondering if they had tried
0:11:23to use the actual HTML elements and then enhance them.
0:11:26Maybe they have, because I didn't expect element.
0:11:27I don't know what was in the source code
0:11:28before the JavaScript got ahold of the DOM,
0:11:30but when the JavaScript was done with it,
0:11:32all I'm left with is a div soup and some Canvas elements
0:11:35and some inline styles.
0:11:36So that's some crazy stuff.
0:11:38- I like the slider.
0:11:39I like the 3D when you grab the little,
0:11:41what do you call that?
0:11:42Not a nubbin, but the thing or handle, whatever.
0:11:45- Thumb.
0:11:46- Thumb, that's what I was looking for, thank you.
0:11:47Anyway, when you grab the thumb,
0:11:49I think it's a little too much zoom.
0:11:51I think it comes at you a little bit too much,
0:11:53but I like-- - Whoa.
0:11:54It's not coming at you, it's getting bigger.
0:11:55If it came at you, the shadow would increase.
0:11:56Go to the Z-index thing at the bottom, like shadow thing,
0:12:00it shows distance, you know, the Z-index.
0:12:01So the thumb is actually getting bigger.
0:12:04- Okay, well, either way.
0:12:05And I also like that it becomes colorless at the left edge,
0:12:09although I do think if you're gonna do that game,
0:12:11it should be more of a gradient
0:12:13as you come across the slider.
0:12:16But no, there are definitely some good ideas here.
0:12:18It feels a little unnatural
0:12:20because it looks different than a lot of things.
0:12:22I think mostly like this layout
0:12:23where you've got that page card thing
0:12:27that kind of goes over the header
0:12:28that feels weird and different and uncomfortable,
0:12:31but I think it's just because it's different,
0:12:33not because it's bad.
0:12:34- Well, it's in a webpage.
0:12:35Like imagine it on a phone.
0:12:36Imagine that you were using this on a phone
0:12:38and one app was a web app
0:12:40because the whole thing with Google's,
0:12:42with their new OS is they're trying to, you know,
0:12:44tabs are mixed in with apps in your task switcher
0:12:46and everything in a way that's supposed to blur the line
0:12:48between what is a mobile website and what is an app.
0:12:51And so if you were using a Google app that used this UI
0:12:54that happened to be a web app
0:12:55and using a Google app that happened to be native,
0:12:57they want them to look and feel the same.
0:12:59And I mean, if the whole rest of the OS looks like this,
0:13:02you'll get used to it.
0:13:03And then if you happen to use a little mobile web app
0:13:05like this, it won't be as shocking as it is
0:13:07for us to load this up, you know, on our Macs
0:13:09in a little demo thing inside a Chrome window.
0:13:13Well, or it'll be like an uncanny valley problem,
0:13:15where it'll get-- it's like when all those sites-- I mean,
0:13:17obviously we're way more advanced on this these days.
0:13:20But when all those blog templates and everything
0:13:22started making-- when the iPhone first came,
0:13:24I started making mobile layouts that looked like an iPhone
0:13:27navigation controller.
0:13:28And so it would have the big gradient bar, which of course
0:13:31aged really well.
0:13:34But they did not perform like it.
0:13:36They had to do the simulated JavaScript scrolling way back
0:13:39because they couldn't even do the real, you know, GPU-accelerated scrolling.
0:13:42But yeah, even when they did like a navigation where you'd hit an element, it would try to do a slide,
0:13:46it was all stuttery, like, that was not fooling anybody.
0:13:48I would like to see actually a blind test between,
0:13:51"You tell me, is this a web page or is this a native app?"
0:13:54I guess you'd start with something simple as just like this, like a control gallery.
0:13:57So someone makes a native app on Google's new operating system with these controls,
0:14:01and then someone makes the web equivalent, and doesn't tell you which is which,
0:14:04and you have to fiddle around with them and guess, like, two devices, which one is the web one, which is--
0:14:08That would be interesting.
0:14:09That's the true test, I suppose.
0:14:11- That's the Pepsi challenge?
0:14:12- ABX testing.
0:14:13- You have to take it serious.
0:14:16Anything else on this?
0:14:18- I share everyone else's opinion for the most part,
0:14:19that it looks on first glance
0:14:22to have way too much animation,
0:14:24but again, we'll have to see how that plays out.
0:14:27- All right.
0:14:28Do we wanna go through this biomedical follow-up stuff?
0:14:32- Yeah, I think we should,
0:14:34before Apple comes out with an iWatch
0:14:35and then becomes less relevant.
0:14:37Plus, we just got to clear out the space out of our document.
0:14:39Yeah, exactly.
0:14:40Yeah, so this we got feedback a while back
0:14:42when we were talking about wearables, probably before WWDC.
0:14:46The first bit is from a biomedical engineer
0:14:48named Ben Griffell.
0:14:49And the second bit is from a doctor named--
0:14:53oh, god, I'm not even going to do this one.
0:14:55One of you sacrificed yourself.
0:14:56Not it.
0:14:57He actually put it in his email, try and pronounce that.
0:15:00So he's just taunting us.
0:15:01And we do not live up to his challenge.
0:15:04His first name is-- the first name is P-E-R.
0:15:07I'm going to go with per.
0:15:08And his last name has a capital O with two dots on top of it,
0:15:11and then it just goes on from there.
0:15:12I'm going to say perostegren.
0:15:14I think that sounds reasonable.
0:15:16That's accurate enough.
0:15:17It's probably not that far off.
0:15:18So the biomedical engineer was responding
0:15:20to our questions several shows ago about,
0:15:23what do you need to get vitals from people?
0:15:26What kind of hardware do you need?
0:15:30And he says, getting a good heart rate
0:15:32requires at least two sensor attachments to the body.
0:15:35I actually saw someone running with one of those you receive one of those bands that goes around your chest
0:15:38Yeah, yeah, like forgetting your heart rate. I assume that's a similar thing where it has two sensors
0:15:42Otherwise, why would it wrap around your whole body?
0:15:44So having it having just the wrist thing might not be great for that and
0:15:50Oxygen saturation he says it's feasible with current tech
0:15:55but like the other person whose name I'm not going to pronounce again is
0:16:01His main issue is what do you do with this information assuming you even can collect it and the doctor's opinion is that?
0:16:09When dealing with any of this data you're faced with a couple problems one is that most people's vitals are
0:16:14Stay within a reasonable range assuming they're healthy so it's not that interesting data if you were to chart it
0:16:19There's not like you're gonna see big fluctuations because if you do you should probably be in the hospital because it's not you know
0:16:24Certain things like blood oxygenation should not be radically out of bounds
0:16:28He says that your pulse at oxygen level and blood pressure should only vary within a few percent.
0:16:34So this is a boring graph, so I assume you could zoom in on the axes and exaggerate the differences.
0:16:38But he says, "When dealing with data points in my work, context is everything.
0:16:42Is that pulse rate normal or not? Depends on the context.
0:16:44Same goes for with fever, blood pressure, etc.
0:16:46Taken out of context, there is nothing to analyze."
0:16:48And the whole idea is that the most important thing that doctors do is get a context for these readings,
0:16:54and the numbers in isolation without a trained doctor to look at them are meaningless.
0:16:58certainly meaningless to like an untrained person
0:17:00just looking at these numbers
0:17:01and trying to know what this information is.
0:17:05So I mostly agree with all of this.
0:17:09And a lot of people in the medical field
0:17:11are nervous about this stuff ever being used
0:17:13for anything remotely approaching medical purposes.
0:17:15Like I'm sure these things
0:17:16will have to come with these glammers.
0:17:17Like this is not for you to self-diagnose.
0:17:20This is not telling you whether you're sick or healthy.
0:17:23This is not telling you whether you should or shouldn't
0:17:25go to the doctor or the hospital.
0:17:26like, I don't know, for entertainment purposes only,
0:17:29like Fitbit, you know, like Fitbit is safe
0:17:32'cause it's, you know, steps and not even really steps,
0:17:34just how many times the Fitbit has wiggled
0:17:36in a step-like manner.
0:17:38And that's kind of like gamified,
0:17:39but once you start getting into things
0:17:40and start looking like things
0:17:42that you might measure in a hospital,
0:17:44I guess Apple or any other company that does this stuff
0:17:46has to be careful in saying,
0:17:48"This information is not diagnosing you with anything.
0:17:51It is not a doctor.
0:17:52Consult your doctor before blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."
0:17:54I think all of that is true.
0:17:56I also think there is a reasonable,
0:18:00entertainment-only, gamified version of this
0:18:02that could come into being.
0:18:03And long-term, for people who do have chronic illnesses
0:18:06and stuff, you would imagine,
0:18:07like there we show this in the demos from the '80s and '90s,
0:18:09and I'm sure they're doing it today with a million devices
0:18:11that people will email us about.
0:18:12But if you have a chronic condition
0:18:14that requires monitoring,
0:18:16having technology to have a device
0:18:18that does monitor this information
0:18:19and relays it to your actual doctor
0:18:21so that you can have sort of, not 24/7 care,
0:18:24but like redundant monitoring by health professionals
0:18:27of your actual vitals, because as part of some condition.
0:18:31Like you can imagine, imagine if there was a way
0:18:33to constantly get your blood sugar level
0:18:36for people with diabetes without pricking your finger.
0:18:38You just put on this wrist strap
0:18:40and then like your doctor would automatically have,
0:18:43or like an entire medical staff somewhere
0:18:45would automatically have your blood sugar
0:18:47and could notify you when you're overdoing it
0:18:50and remind you to, you know, take your insulin shot
0:18:52before you go off to bed or whatever.
0:18:54That's like the future world technology
0:18:55they always show up for remote medicine.
0:18:57And I suppose the silly entertainment stuff like Fitbit
0:19:00is like a little miniature step along the way to that.
0:19:03But anyway, it was mostly a pessimistic view of this stuff
0:19:07that from the medical professionals,
0:19:10they think it's not as useful as the fantasy scenarios
0:19:15make it out to be, and I'm inclined to agree with them.
0:19:18- Well, maybe this would provide context to a doctor.
0:19:21I think you're right in that it could never be used for serious medicine.
0:19:26But maybe you could say, maybe this app or the health kit or whatever could say, "Well,
0:19:33your heart rate generally falls between this and that and right now it's at two beats
0:19:38per minute so you might be dead."
0:19:40And so maybe it will provide that context that you wouldn't have otherwise had because
0:19:45you don't normally walk around with a heart rate monitor strapped to your body.
0:19:49Oh yeah, this last bit that I wanted to get to, and anyone who has spent any time in a
0:19:53hospital recently or ever recognizes that, like, talking about the existing automated
0:19:59devices in hospitals for tracking vitals, and how many of them have warnings or alarms
0:20:05that go off, and how often those warnings or alarms mean anything.
0:20:08On TV shows, they always mean something.
0:20:09When the little buzzy beepy thing goes off, doctors run around and it's something serious
0:20:12and the dramatic music starts playing.
0:20:14In actual hospitals, the stupid buzzy warning things go off all the time, and the staff
0:20:18there knows whether it's serious or not and there's tons of false positives and
0:20:22the thing that differentiates a false positive from time for doctors to run
0:20:25around with their heads you know on fire is the trained medical professionals who
0:20:30know what can be disregarded and what can and what's an equipment
0:20:33malfunction and what's the sensor that just slipped off and what's a serious
0:20:35situation you know and like I said I don't spend a lot of time on hospitals
0:20:39but I spent enough time to know that BP things going off in the beginning started
0:20:44freaking you out until you realize that BP things go off all the time and only
0:20:47some small percentage of the time doesn't mean anything and when it does mean something hopefully
0:20:51you know the doctors and nurses are on it but the rest of the time the doctors and nurses are
0:20:56resetting the thing turning the thing off recalibrating the thing reattaching something and
0:21:00that just goes to show how much of humans are a factor in this stuff and how little
0:21:05automated devices even hospital-grade automated devices can do on their own.
0:21:09We are sponsored this week by our returning friends igloo the internet that you will actually
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0:21:22Is there a market for somebody coming along to make an intranet that's good because,
0:21:27you know, it kind of implies that other intranets are terrible. Would you generally say that's
0:21:32the case?
0:21:33Would you say there's a market for an iPod, a phone, and an internet communicator all
0:21:40in one?
0:21:41Well, I mean, a PC guy's not just gonna come in here and take the market. They're not
0:21:44just walk in. Right, naturally. But if you are Igloo, you could just walk in and take
0:21:49the market. Turns out most internets are terrible and Igloo is awesome. And that's actually
0:21:55a really good business model. You know, go find something terrible and make an awesome
0:21:58version. Anyway, Igloo has a super exciting release coming this summer called Unicorn.
0:22:03Now we've talked about this before. A couple months ago, or a month ago, we told you about
0:22:08Unicorn a little bit. So just to recap, Unicorn has a ton of new features. But the best is
0:22:13integrated task management that will change how you stay on track with work.
0:22:17Igloo tasks can be assigned in different ways depending on the work you're doing.
0:22:21One of the coolest ways to use tasks is creating them directly on your content.
0:22:25Why do you need this? So for instance when requesting updates on a graphic or
0:22:29a text correction on a Word document, you can create these
0:22:34tasks right on your content so you and your team stay up to date with what has
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0:22:43forum topic inside your igloo, because igloo can do all those cool things, these tasks are right
0:22:47there informing everyone if all tasks have been completed or if it needs additional work. You can
0:22:52assign these tasks to yourself or a teammate, comment on the tasks, and keep all of your
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0:23:01up in a unified dashboard within your igloo, with due dates clearly marked, making it super simple
0:23:06to manage your day-to-day work and clarify your priorities. Man, I want to throw a parking lot
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0:23:15coming this summer.
0:23:16So learn more at igloosoftware.com/atp.
0:23:20Once again, that's igloosoftware.com/atp.
0:23:24Thank you very much to Igloo for sponsoring our show
0:23:26once again, good people over there.
0:23:27- Yeah, they're very good people over there.
0:23:29Up there, I guess I should say.
0:23:30- Oh yeah, yeah, they're up in the great white north, right?
0:23:33- Indeed.
0:23:34Aperture and iPhoto are dead
0:23:37and being replaced by iCloud Photos.
0:23:40Any thoughts on this from somebody who actually pays attention to photography,
0:23:43which I am not that person.
0:23:44What do you guys use? Let's start with that.
0:23:47I used in the past, I, uh, I photo occasionally,
0:23:52but I felt like even for my photo collection pre children,
0:23:56although it goes back to like 2002 or something like that, um,
0:24:01it was really slow, like really, really slow.
0:24:04And so I tried to buy into using that as my photo management
0:24:09application and then it took me all of a couple of weeks to revert back to using the file system.
0:24:14That system is not going to scale once your child gets here, let me just tell you.
0:24:18Using the file system, jeez. I've used iPhoto and Aperture and I think I had a demo of Lightroom
0:24:25installed for a while and I always kept going back to iPhoto despite the fact that it has gotten
0:24:29worse and worse over the years and drives me insane for two reasons. One, I have invested a
0:24:36a lot of time in adding metadata to my photos in iPhoto.
0:24:41And yeah, I know Aperture shares library
0:24:43and all that other good stuff.
0:24:44But two, the features that I use most frequently
0:24:48either aren't in Aperture now or weren't in Aperture
0:24:52years ago when I continued on this path,
0:24:53like face recognition came first iPhoto.
0:24:56Is that even in Aperture yet?
0:24:57- I believe they brought over all that stuff
0:24:59in like a point one update.
0:25:01- Like the photo books, the slide shows,
0:25:04all the silly consumer grade things
0:25:06they put in iPhoto, we use them. Not frequently, but every once in a while it's nice to have
0:25:09them there. And again, with the library sharing it's probably not that big of a deal, but
0:25:12basically we've, I've just sunk so many hours and so much time into iPhoto. All my photos
0:25:18are in iPhoto, they're organized in there, they're rated, mostly keyworded, all sorts
0:25:23of other stuff. And I just don't do any adjustments of them. I have no idea what I'm doing in
0:25:29Aperture or Lightroom. My photos aren't that good quality anyway because I don't really
0:25:32have a real camera. So yeah, I've been to iPhoto forever and that's where all my pictures
0:25:37are.
0:25:38So I've actually used all of these things before and it's been like it beyond just like
0:25:43using it for like a day or two. I started out with all iPhoto. Then I tried Aperture
0:25:50for I was all iPhoto through my first SLR phase for three or four years. Then I switched
0:25:58over to Lightroom, I mean to Aperture first for about a year and a half or two years,
0:26:04then Lightroom, then back to Aperture, then back to Lightroom. And each one with like
0:26:09you know a six month interval there at the end. And now I've been at Lightroom for
0:26:13a couple years and they've all driven me crazy in different ways. None of them are
0:26:18great solutions. And you know the iOS situation is not great either. The iOS situation pre-8
0:26:27with the Photos app on iOS being just kind of this browser
0:26:31that could do very little,
0:26:33the camera app being kind of half integrated into it,
0:26:35and then the separate iPhoto app,
0:26:38which I don't know anybody who uses iPhoto on iOS.
0:26:40I tried it briefly, and it was so clunky and terrible to me
0:26:44that I couldn't stand it.
0:26:46But on the desktop, these programs have all had issues.
0:26:50They've all driven me nuts.
0:26:52My photo was by far the least aggravating
0:26:57for the longest time in that if you wanna do
0:27:02pretty passive management of your photos,
0:27:05like you know what, I don't wanna create albums
0:27:08and sets and tags and keywords,
0:27:10I just wanna import everything
0:27:11and be able to browse it quickly, that's it.
0:27:13I know this is not maybe as common as other people think,
0:27:17I don't know.
0:27:19I've never used metadata features at all.
0:27:22I tagged all the faces in iPhoto when that came out
0:27:24and then I never looked at them again,
0:27:25so that was a waste of time.
0:27:27iPhoto has always been the simplest
0:27:31because it didn't require much organization
0:27:35and you could browse quickly and performance was critical.
0:27:40Aperture has always had by far the worst performance
0:27:44of any of these things.
0:27:44Even on a Mac Pro, even with an SSD,
0:27:48Aperture performance has always been much slower for me
0:27:51than Lightroom or iPhoto.
0:27:53And even in a fairly recent update,
0:27:56I think like two years ago,
0:27:57which for Aperture is recent
0:27:58'cause no one ever works on it,
0:28:00but in a fairly recent update to Aperture,
0:28:01they even did the thing where you could merge the library
0:28:03where Aperture and iPhoto could share the same library,
0:28:05which is an interesting move.
0:28:08Even that didn't make Aperture fast.
0:28:10It's always been very, very slow
0:28:12just browsing through collections and stuff,
0:28:14and it's also been very buggy.
0:28:16And I tried a lot of different versions of Aperture
0:28:17'cause whenever a new one would come out,
0:28:19all the Aperture fans would say,
0:28:20oh, they finally made it better,
0:28:22so I'd go back and try again.
0:28:24And it was never really that much better.
0:28:25It's like desktop Linux, everyone always says,
0:28:27it's better now, go try it again.
0:28:30And it never really is,
0:28:31like at least not meaningfully enough
0:28:33to people who don't use it every day
0:28:35to really see that, oh, no,
0:28:36this is still annoying the crap out of me
0:28:38and having these weird bugs and weird performance issues.
0:28:41Lightroom has by far the best performance
0:28:46and the best stability compared to the other apps.
0:28:50But Lightroom's interface is clunky.
0:28:52And although, honestly, I found Aperture's interface
0:28:53clunky as well.
0:28:55Even iPhoto, like, I totally agree with Jon
0:28:58that while I was still trying it,
0:29:00and I still go back to it occasionally,
0:29:02it does seem like every release is worse than the last one.
0:29:04There's something about like,
0:29:06the things they do to try to make it easier
0:29:09usually end up making it clunkier,
0:29:11which you wouldn't expect, but that's been the case.
0:29:13And so I've tried all these apps, none of them are great,
0:29:16and only the Apple apps have the integration
0:29:19with the iOS devices.
0:29:20So if you're an iOS device user
0:29:23and you want nice sync between all these things,
0:29:26only Aperture and iPhoto have that.
0:29:28And Lightroom has, they recently launched
0:29:31their own sync platform.
0:29:32Adobe's had a weird history with this.
0:29:33First they launched Adobe Revel
0:29:35about two years ago, I think.
0:29:37And it was a good idea.
0:29:40In fact, a lot of the stuff
0:29:41that the new Photos Cloud thing is doing,
0:29:44Revel did it two years ago.
0:29:47but it was a weird combo with weird limitations
0:29:51that was never very well marketed.
0:29:52It was very clear that it was not a top priority for Adobe.
0:29:56So then Lightroom Cloud was,
0:30:00are they calling it Lightroom Cloud, Lightroom Mobile,
0:30:01whatever they're, Lightroom released a sync product
0:30:03like two months ago or something like that.
0:30:05And you had to manually drag over things that were synced.
0:30:09It would not sync your whole library.
0:30:12It wouldn't even let you sync a smart album
0:30:14so you couldn't do a trick where you say,
0:30:15all right, we'll just sync everything
0:30:16from the last six years, you know?
0:30:17Couldn't even do that.
0:30:18You have to manually select what got synced,
0:30:20which kind of ruins the way I wanted to use it.
0:30:23And what I want is what Apple is giving us.
0:30:26Now, I am sad that Aperture is going away
0:30:29in the sense that there's gonna be less competition
0:30:31for Lightroom, but there wasn't that much to begin with,
0:30:34'cause Aperture was so badly maintained by Apple.
0:30:36It hardly ever got new releases.
0:30:39It rarely got new features.
0:30:41Does it even, I know this is probably,
0:30:44some people consider this minor, but does it even have lens profiles yet for cameras?
0:30:47Like Lightroom added that a couple years ago and it's, oh, it's such an incredibly good
0:30:51feature because you don't realize how distorted your camera is until you click on that checkbox
0:30:55that applies the lens profile in Lightroom and you see, whoop, oh.
0:30:58Alright, people in the chat say no, didn't get lens profiles.
0:31:02Don't you feel like it's kind of a shame that like, not that Aputure defined the category
0:31:06but that Aputure essentially popularized a category of application that previously was
0:31:13only used by professional photographers. It sort of made it prosumer. Because when we
0:31:17were talking about Aperture and Twitter and everything, and everyone was chiming in with
0:31:19the names of these applications that I've never heard of, probably because they're used
0:31:22by pro photographers. And Aperture was like, prosumer. Oh, here's an application like the
0:31:27ones that pros use, probably nicer because it's made by Apple and doesn't have any weird
0:31:32-- you know, it's not made by some weird company that sells a small number of copies. This
0:31:35is Apple. Is it going to be friendly? It's going to be prosumer. But it fulfills the
0:31:39the same role and then Lightroom said,
0:31:42that's great and all Apple, but here's how you actually
0:31:44do that app and not make it suck.
0:31:45- Right, and Aperture was just relentless in its updates
0:31:48and like new cameras would come out
0:31:50with crazy new raw formats.
0:31:52- Lightroom you mean?
0:31:53- Yeah, yeah, obviously.
0:31:54Like new cameras would come out with crazy new raw formats
0:31:57and Lightroom would beat Aperture to supporting
0:31:59almost every single one and often by like weeks or months,
0:32:03it was often a pretty big difference.
0:32:05And just you know, the processing engine,
0:32:08Like, I always liked, and this was, I was torn,
0:32:11one of the reasons I kept switching back and forth,
0:32:14I always liked the results I got from Aperture,
0:32:16from editing in Aperture.
0:32:18I edited some of my favorite pictures in it.
0:32:23But Lightroom's editing controls are better.
0:32:26I was really very, very impressed
0:32:29with the output of Aperture,
0:32:30but I hated every part of getting there.
0:32:32Whereas with Lightroom, it's now,
0:32:35like the tools are much more advanced
0:32:36and they've slowly made it a little bit more artsy
0:32:39rather than analytical and everything,
0:32:42and so they're improving on that front.
0:32:43But the biggest problem with these apps,
0:32:46that's always been the case with Aperture and Lightroom,
0:32:49and I know there's other apps out there.
0:32:50My wife uses Bridge.
0:32:51In fact, Casey, for the same reason.
0:32:53She likes the file system approach.
0:32:55We have a kid, we have many pictures of the kid,
0:32:57and she uses the file system, John.
0:32:59But, (laughs)
0:33:01'cause Bridge is, it comes with Photoshop,
0:33:04and it's basically Lightroom's editing controls,
0:33:07or rather Lightroom is really Bridge's editing controls,
0:33:09but regardless, it's Lightroom's editing controls,
0:33:12all the same tools, even with the same names,
0:33:14just with a different skin,
0:33:16in a way that operates directly on the file system.
0:33:19So it's more of like a fancy image browser
0:33:21that just browses your folders on your disk,
0:33:23but can do these operations to them.
0:33:25Anyway, the problem with these apps is that
0:33:28you have the professional workflow stuff.
0:33:31Like if you're doing shoots for clients,
0:33:34these are not your personal photos.
0:33:35You don't want to keep one giant library
0:33:38of every photo you've ever shot for a client
0:33:40merged in with the photos of your dog.
0:33:42That doesn't really make sense,
0:33:44doesn't really work, doesn't really scale.
0:33:46And so Photoshop and Lightroom and Aperture
0:33:49were both built to address this market of professionals
0:33:52who do shoots with these big collections,
0:33:55these big sets that you have to bring in
0:33:56and out of your library and manage your storage
0:33:59in different crazy ways and everything.
0:34:01That's what they're for.
0:34:03There's also this entire community of people like us,
0:34:06people who might buy an SLR or a fancy camera
0:34:10and want really advanced editing controls
0:34:13for making our photos look good after we take them,
0:34:15or fancy RAW controls or things like that,
0:34:19or RAW handling rather,
0:34:20and then lossless editing controls.
0:34:23There's people like us who want that power,
0:34:25the power of those editing tools,
0:34:27who don't need or necessarily even want
0:34:30that crazy pro photographer workflow and storage
0:34:34and collection management that these apps bring
0:34:37and kind of force you to use.
0:34:39iPhoto actually has a very,
0:34:41it has always had a very small amount of RAW options.
0:34:44The way it used to work, and please chat,
0:34:46correct me if I'm wrong, with new versions,
0:34:48but the way it used to work,
0:34:49the first time you edited a RAW photo,
0:34:51you would actually have lossless RAW controls there,
0:34:54and you could make great adjustments.
0:34:56It wouldn't really indicate that
0:34:57except for like a little RAW badge in the corner,
0:34:59but you were doing, it wasn't like importing a JPEG
0:35:03and operating on that, you were actually working
0:35:04on the RAW first, but as soon as you exited that first edit,
0:35:08it would write the changes, it would bake them
0:35:11into the JPEG preview, and then you'd never have
0:35:13lossless editing on that file after that
0:35:14unless you totally reverted it back to original
0:35:17and then reprocessed it.
0:35:19And so iPhoto had these half-assed RAW editing controls.
0:35:23It looks to almost all of, almost all the hints we got,
0:35:27all the info we got and if you look at the articles that reported the apertures
0:35:32being discontinued they all came with this additional screenshot of the photos
0:35:35app that we haven't seen before that wasn't in the keynote that shows
0:35:38controls and things that weren't in the keynote and it looks a lot like aperture
0:35:43and Lightroom it looks like it has a ton of editing controls on in the right-hand
0:35:48column really advanced stuff beyond what you normally get in iPhoto and looks
0:35:53like the same kind of stuff you get in aperture and Lightroom it sure looks
0:35:57like what they've really done here is now we will have the
0:36:01simplified management of iPhoto and all the convenience of the
0:36:05files being synced and being part of our official photo library on our Macs and iPhones
0:36:09and our iPads and it looks like they've finally given
0:36:13iPhoto or the new Photos app rather, but they finally brought
0:36:17those pro-level editing tools into the consumer level photo
0:36:21management app, which is something we've never had before. As I said iPhoto used
0:36:25to have kind of this half-assed version, but it sure looks like they're giving us exactly
0:36:31what people like us want. This is not what pro photographers really need, but it certainly
0:36:36is what people like me and you guys need, you know? Where it's still a consumer app,
0:36:42it's going to have simple management I'm sure, probably very similar to the iOS Photos app,
0:36:47but it has all these advanced controls. And that, to me, I'm very excited about this.
0:36:52I don't think I'm gonna stop using Lightroom,
0:36:55but I might.
0:36:56Like it looks like it's good enough
0:36:58that it might be good enough for me
0:37:00to drop Lightroom entirely.
0:37:02- Well, their editing controls,
0:37:03the big thing they were showing in the keynote was,
0:37:05you know, not just prosumer,
0:37:07but going down to consumer level.
0:37:08When consumers are faced with the actual controls available
0:37:11in Aperture or Lightroom, they'd have no idea what to do.
0:37:13I don't know what to do.
0:37:14Like it's just, it's too complicated.
0:37:15There's too much involved.
0:37:16You're never gonna get anything right.
0:37:17So that's why iPhoto just has a big red button
0:37:19called enhance that tries to do something reasonable.
0:37:21and then it's got a few tweaks for, you know,
0:37:23a few other minor controls.
0:37:25The Photos app is trying to take it farther.
0:37:27It's like, we are going to sort of kind of expose
0:37:30all the crazy controls you see,
0:37:31but we're also gonna give you a big friendly slider
0:37:34that says, please make picture better now along some axes,
0:37:38and that slider won't adjust any one thing.
0:37:40That slider will adjust 17 factors
0:37:42and not even in a constant ratio,
0:37:44just trying to do like a smart adjustment,
0:37:46because they know that most people don't know enough
0:37:48to correctly adjust the little sliders
0:37:50to get everything right,
0:37:51want to and they know that the big red enhance button is also the other end of
0:37:55the spectrum it's not good enough they want to give you some control you tell
0:37:58oh this picture is a little bit too dark this picture looks like it's a little
0:38:01bit underexposed like if you can get a few basic concepts and then grab a hold
0:38:04of one of those sliders they will do sophisticated stuff behind the covers
0:38:08that involves adjusting a hundred sliders to try to get you something nice
0:38:11and this is moving farther and farther away from professionals and towards the
0:38:14realm of consumers but trying to make it useful you're like if we give this
0:38:17picture to a pro they could make it look better than you ever will but how close
0:38:21can we get you without teaching you really anything but some basic concepts about
0:38:26photography
0:38:28And did you see the larger screenshot this on put in the chat room? Yeah. Yeah, it confirms
0:38:32I think pretty much everything yeah, it does actually it's hard to see in this picture
0:38:37But actually almost looks kind of light roomy in terms of like the UI, you know
0:38:40Like I like less like aperture with this strange squinty Pro interface and all that
0:38:46Stuff but so I made I made a list of pros and cons for the photos app
0:38:50that's going to be replacing this from my perspective because
0:38:52Despite all the editing stuff that you just talked about. I think most people don't edit their photos
0:38:57I bet that people most people don't even hit the big red enhance button. I bet most people don't even crop their photos
0:39:02I think they just
0:39:04Collect them and then have want to find have some way to go through them
0:39:08So organization is the more important thing
0:39:11But so from my perspective what I do with things in iPhoto is the reason I add all this metadata is for organizational purposes
0:39:17So that I can do things like I just have too many damn pictures so I can do things like
0:39:22three plus stars featuring my daughter from Long Island in 2010 and that will give me like seven photos if I wanted to make a
0:39:29Calendar page if we're printing out a family calendar of cute pictures of my daughter from on the beach in that time and
0:39:36How do I get to do that out of my thousands and thousands and thousands of photos because I rate every single one of them
0:39:41Because I keyword them because I make sure the face recognition works so that I can do
0:39:45smart searches and smart albums that very quickly give me the seven or eight good pictures out of the hundreds or thousands that I
0:39:51Took and I would say that's that puts you in a severe minority
0:39:54I mean, I I would bet you're totally right. Most people don't even edit their photos don't even crop them
0:39:59But I would also bet almost, you know comparably nobody
0:40:03Actually edits metadata, right? Well, I'm not saying that's the that's the right solution
0:40:08I'm saying that's what I've done
0:40:09But like what I think actually before I get to my pros and cons
0:40:11but I think the correct solution for the photos app is
0:40:13Dump all the photos into one big thing and give people like the the ability to like
0:40:17Not the obviously you can't use Facebook's like but I think that's something people can do people and take a bunch of photos
0:40:22People can go there's maybe all the photos that someone takes the person who took the pictures goes through them at least once like they want
0:40:28To look at the pictures they took. I'm not even sure that's a safe assumption
0:40:31But good. I think they take the photos they go through them once they say oh, that's a good one
0:40:35And if they had a little button that would you know do like or star or whatever then at the end of their vacation?
0:40:401% of their photos or 2% or depending how how kind they are to themselves have little stars in them and then in the future
0:40:47When they want to see show me all the good pictures from that vacation
0:40:49They don't want to go through a thousand pictures
0:40:50Just show me the ones that I said were good that kind of binary good bad
0:40:54Type thing where you don't say bad you just say good
0:40:56Maybe there's a bad option to I guess put in the trash or whatever. Is there a parking lot?
0:41:01Well, no, but the thing is, so let me use myself as a quote unquote normal insofar as I take pictures only with my iPhone
0:41:09We have no point-and-shoot other than that. We have no SLR
0:41:12I know that we'll all probably change when Sprouts here, but nevertheless as it is today
0:41:17we we only have our iPhones and
0:41:19What inevitably happens is I'll take a picture because if the occasion strikes my fancy
0:41:26And I think that I might want to capture that moment and it goes into my photo
0:41:30stream roll thing, whatever, on the phone.
0:41:33And then every couple of months, I remember that,
0:41:36ooh, I should probably take this off my phone.
0:41:38I hook up image capture, I hook it up to the Mac,
0:41:41run image capture, dump everything into one folder,
0:41:44and never look at it again.
0:41:46And these photos are extremely important to me,
0:41:50yet I never ever look at them.
0:41:51- But no one wants to see pictures of you and your wife.
0:41:53People are gonna wanna see pictures of your child.
0:41:55And so you're going to be faced with the problem of,
0:41:58send me three good pictures,
0:41:59and or you're gonna be making cute little kid things,
0:42:02like I mentioned the calendars,
0:42:03or little books or some like,
0:42:05baby's first year type things like,
0:42:07stuff like that comes up,
0:42:09and you wanna distribute them,
0:42:10so you will be faced with some kind of sorting problem,
0:42:12because A, you'll have way more pictures
0:42:14than you have of yourself and your wife,
0:42:15because you'll take a million pictures of your kid,
0:42:17and B, people will want them,
0:42:19but people won't want a million of them,
0:42:20they just want the one or two good ones, right?
0:42:22So you will be faced with that task eventually,
0:42:25of having vastly increased volume,
0:42:28but also having the task before you
0:42:30to come up with two or three good ones.
0:42:31And you're gonna wanna,
0:42:32because you're gonna wanna show your kid
0:42:33being the cutest possible.
0:42:34- And I understand that, but I think if,
0:42:37again, sitting here now, very ignorant,
0:42:39because I don't know what it's like to be a parent yet,
0:42:41I think I would just think to myself, hmm,
0:42:44when did Sprout, or whatever we're going to name him or her,
0:42:48when did Sprout look cute?
0:42:51When do I remember taking a good picture?
0:42:53What day was that?
0:42:54- Yeah, he thinks his memory's gonna work
0:42:57after the child gets here.
0:42:59So cute.
0:43:00- Honestly, I think that's what most people do.
0:43:01I think most people, they just browse on a timeline.
0:43:05That's all I do.
0:43:06- Yeah, the timeline gets big.
0:43:08I mean, like I said, I'm not saying people need
0:43:10to be rating each individual one and cropping it.
0:43:12I'm saying, even when people put stuff on Facebook,
0:43:15people like other people's photos on Facebook.
0:43:17People say, yes, that is a good picture.
0:43:19No, that is not a good one.
0:43:20Just the binary, that little binary thing,
0:43:22because every picture on Facebook gets one or two likes,
0:43:26but individual people don't like
0:43:27every single photo they see.
0:43:29So too with your own pictures.
0:43:30If you look at them at all ever,
0:43:32it's not too much to ask, oh, that's a cute one,
0:43:34and just click a little thing.
0:43:35Like people fave tweets for crying out loud.
0:43:37It's the same thing.
0:43:38Do people read all their Twitter stream?
0:43:39No, but sometimes they see one and they fave it.
0:43:41I think that is the appropriate level
0:43:43of granularity for sorting.
0:43:45- And I'm with you.
0:43:46And the funny thing is I actually believe
0:43:48in having the metadata,
0:43:50which is what I did in that two months that I spent
0:43:52or whatever it was with iPhoto.
0:43:54And I tried to create and generate all that metadata
0:43:57so I could do exactly what you're describing.
0:43:59And the thought of being able to say,
0:44:01oh, the picture of Aaron that I liked
0:44:03when we were at some friend's wedding
0:44:05and getting there instantly,
0:44:07that sounds extremely appealing to me, it really does.
0:44:10But all of the work I would have to go through
0:44:13to get to that point, I have no interest in whatsoever.
0:44:16- Well, I mean, face detection is an example.
0:44:18Like I was using keywording before face detection, as I said, to keyword each of the people,
0:44:22but if you have face detection, the computer can do that part for you.
0:44:24You don't have to find keyword things as having Aaron in them, face detection will narrow
0:44:28that down for you, it's not going to be 100% effective, but look at all the work at CIFU.
0:44:32You didn't have to categorize pictures as having Aaron in them or not, the program did
0:44:35it for you.
0:44:37Program probably could get to the point where it can fave things for you in terms of framing
0:44:40and composition and whether it's in focus or not.
0:44:45That's where they're trying to get there.
0:44:46What Apple is trying to do is make it so that normal people can have the photo experience
0:44:50that I have through diligent work that I put into my photo library.
0:44:54I don't think that's it.
0:44:56I think they're trying to adapt from a world of people hoping to use it like you and usually
0:45:03not and failing.
0:45:04They're trying to adapt from that world to the way people actually use their photo libraries
0:45:10today.
0:45:11I know, but they want them to have the advantages that I have without the work.
0:45:15That's what I'm getting at.
0:45:16Same thing with the editing.
0:45:17They want them to be able to edit photos kind of sort of like a pro without knowing anything
0:45:22that the pros know.
0:45:23They want them to be able to find their photos quickly, the ones that they like, without
0:45:26having to put any work into organizing them and saying which ones are good and putting
0:45:29them into little albums and doing all that stuff.
0:45:32That's what all their things are towards.
0:45:33They want you to have powerful features without putting in a lot of work.
0:45:36All right.
0:45:37So what are your pros and cons?
0:45:38All right.
0:45:39So this is from my perspective, obviously, as an iPhoto user.
0:45:42So we already touched on a lot of these pros, but just to go down the list here.
0:45:45So full cloud backup of everything, assuming you pay enough money.
0:45:49That's what we've talked about this forever.
0:45:51What they seem to be saying is all your photos will be everywhere.
0:45:55We'll take care of it.
0:45:56They'll all be in the cloud.
0:45:57They'll be full resolution, assuming you pay us enough money.
0:46:00But I mean, fine, whatever.
0:46:01Like if they come through on that and the pricing is not outside my price range, I would
0:46:06call that a pro because right now I have to roll my own solution for that.
0:46:11whereas in this system, I wouldn't need to.
0:46:14No one device has to hold all your photos.
0:46:16So if my Mac isn't big enough to hold my photo library,
0:46:18if my phone isn't big enough to hold my photo library,
0:46:20if my iPad isn't big enough, doesn't matter.
0:46:21They don't all need to be in any one device.
0:46:23They're all in the cloud.
0:46:24Some subset of them is on your devices.
0:46:27You don't have to worry about it.
0:46:28But all photos are browsable,
0:46:30are available to you on all devices.
0:46:31So just because all your pictures can't fit on your phone,
0:46:34if you scroll back to, you know, 1996,
0:46:36you should still be able to browse through there,
0:46:38even though those aren't, you know,
0:46:39So dynamically taking care of what's on the device,
0:46:41what's not.
0:46:43That's the whole promise of this system,
0:46:45getting us out of individual applications
0:46:47and stuff like that.
0:46:48Presumably edits show up everywhere.
0:46:50So if you crop a photo on your phone,
0:46:51if you crop it on your Mac, if you crop it on your iPad,
0:46:53wherever you do that work to it,
0:46:55that edit would show up everywhere.
0:46:57You don't, oh, I cropped that on my phone,
0:46:58but the version on my iPhone library isn't cropped.
0:47:00Or the one in PhotoStream is cropped,
0:47:01but the one in my library isn't.
0:47:02Like all these weird things like that,
0:47:04presumably would show up everywhere.
0:47:06and also presumably organizational changes
0:47:09that show up everywhere.
0:47:10If they have a concept of an album
0:47:11and if you happen to make an album,
0:47:13I would hope that that album shows up
0:47:15everywhere that your pictures are.
0:47:17So if you make the album on your Mac,
0:47:18the album would show up on your phone.
0:47:19If you make the album on your phone,
0:47:20it shows up on your iPad.
0:47:22That's the dream of this arrangement
0:47:25of being divorced from a program that lives in one place
0:47:28that has a library that's in a folder
0:47:30or in some big bundle thing or whatever.
0:47:34Now, on the con side, the one I immediately think of is,
0:47:37how do I make a backup of this?
0:47:39How do I make a local backup?
0:47:40Because if all my photos aren't on my Mac,
0:47:42and all my photos aren't on my iPod,
0:47:43and all my photos aren't on my iPad,
0:47:47what if I want to have a hard drive in my house,
0:47:50or even just do my own online backup
0:47:52to Backblazer or whatever, how do I do that?
0:47:54How do I make a backup of this?
0:47:56Or am I out of the picture on that?
0:47:58Now, no, I'm sorry, you're not allowed to have a backup of it.
0:48:00And that leads me to the second con,
0:48:02which is, what's my recourse
0:48:03if some of my pictures disappear.
0:48:04Say I buy into the system, upload all my stuff,
0:48:07all my pictures are in the cloud,
0:48:08some subset of them is all my devices,
0:48:10then I try to go back to some pictures from 2004
0:48:13that I know we took a beach vacation and I can't find them,
0:48:17or they're there and they're all blank white,
0:48:18or they're all scrambled or whatever.
0:48:19What is my recourse?
0:48:20I don't have a local backup, remember,
0:48:22and now they're all screwed up.
0:48:23Or what if they all spawn duplicates
0:48:24and I have three of every picture
0:48:26and I have to go through and manually delete them?
0:48:28What is my reset?
0:48:29How do I start over if I don't have a local backup?
0:48:33This is like reliability basically saying,
0:48:35do I trust Apple to be the cloud storage for all my photos?
0:48:38And I clearly I don't.
0:48:39How severely will the organizational tools
0:48:42that I happen to use be curtailed?
0:48:43I presume they will curtail the organizational tools
0:48:46because like Marco said,
0:48:47most people don't use half of these tools.
0:48:48Why would they include them in the photos app?
0:48:50Ratings, keywords, albums, faces, events,
0:48:53like all these things,
0:48:54all these concepts that exist in iPhoto,
0:48:56I imagine almost all of them would be gone in photos.
0:48:59And that's fine for most people,
0:49:01but it's not good for me
0:49:02because I put a lot of time and effort into those.
0:49:05And what happens to that data when, you know,
0:49:07how will I import my existing iPhoto library
0:49:10into the system?
0:49:11Will there be a way for me to do that?
0:49:13Even just saying stuff like crops.
0:49:14Like I spend a lot of time cropping pictures that I like.
0:49:16Like that's not a big complicated edit.
0:49:19Is that something I'm gonna lose?
0:49:20Are all my crops gonna be gone?
0:49:22Will there be a migration path from iPhoto into this thing
0:49:25that maintains as much of my metadata as possible?
0:49:28Or will it just be like, nope, sorry,
0:49:29will just read your original JPEGs off disk again and upload them and you'll have to do
0:49:33or re-edit them and everything.
0:49:35So in these pros and cons, I'm kind of excited about the pros, but if some of these cons
0:49:39can't be addressed, I don't know what I'm going to do, because I mean, particularly
0:49:43about the backup thing, I want to have an out if this thing gets flaky or screws up
0:49:48my pictures in some way, I need to have a local backup.
0:49:50And if I can't figure out how to do that, I'm just going to have to like, I don't know,
0:49:55keep using iPhone until it doesn't run anymore or try to maintain two copies of everything.
0:49:59in my iPhoto library and one in this cloud thing. I'm very nervous about this.
0:50:04Well, why can't you just do image capture like I do and put that somewhere that gets
0:50:08backed up everywhere? But then they wouldn't be in the cloud thing.
0:50:12If I want to buy into this photos thing, I like the idea of having access to my one photo
0:50:17library everywhere without having to have literally 500 gigabytes of photos attached
0:50:22to every Mac in my house, and I can't fit it on any of my iOS devices. I want to see
0:50:27my photos from everywhere. I wanted to have one big shared library that everyone can see,
0:50:31or at least the same Apple ID in every system can see. This gets into the family sharing
0:50:35thing that drives me nuts.
0:50:36But no, no, I'm with you. I'm saying maybe even just leave the pictures on your iPhone,
0:50:43if you will, or, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what you would do with an SLR. But in
0:50:47addition to whatever the normal procedure is for the new way to handle photos, also
0:50:55take all the pictures, dump them on your Synology, for example, in some drive somewhere that
0:51:00you're also backing up offsite?
0:51:01Yeah, I mean, that doesn't—presumably, when I bring the photos in, I do mess with
0:51:07them a little bit.
0:51:08At the very least, I crop them and find the ones that are good.
0:51:11And that work is not preserved by having a backup of folders full of pictures, whereas
0:51:16now, what I'm backing up is essentially my iPhoto library, which has all the original
0:51:20JPEGs, yes, but also has all the associated metadata with all the stuff.
0:51:23So if my house burns down and I restore from a backup, what I get back is not just my original
0:51:29photos, I get back all my crops from them, all my metadata from them, whatever metadata
0:51:32there is to preserve, I get back.
0:51:35Whereas if I'm just backing up the individual files, but then investing my time and continuing
0:51:40my metadata regimes as much as I'm allowed to, at the very least with simple things like
0:51:44albums and if not ratings and some kind of star type system, I'm not backing that up
0:51:50anywhere.
0:51:51That goes away.
0:51:52And it's not like I think my house is going to burn.
0:51:53going to go away because the earlier versions of this are going to be buggy and it's going
0:51:56to screw up in some way and I'm going to want to reset or I'm going to want to restore
0:51:59from backup or whatever and I'm not going to be able to.
0:52:02Well I think this is really though a very uncommon case. I mean first of all I think
0:52:08this is going to work like almost all these other iCloud type services and for Android
0:52:13whatever their thing is, for Amazon for their new thing. Most people are not going to have
0:52:18their own backup. Most people are going to be totally at the whims of the system, and
0:52:24it'll work fine for most of them. I really think that it's just not going to be an issue
0:52:30for most people.
0:52:31I said these were my pros and cons, but even for things like contacts, the entirety of
0:52:36people's contacts is probably the size of one photo from an SLR, and yet people have
0:52:42trouble with contacts. Duplicate contacts, contacts being lost, edits to one contact
0:52:46without showing up in another place.
0:52:47If Apple can't get that right,
0:52:48with such an incredibly low data volume,
0:52:50and if that continues to be as I think it is,
0:52:52from dealing with my relatives at least,
0:52:54managing contacts continues to be a problem.
0:52:57Keeping them in sync,
0:52:58even if you're 100% on the Apple system,
0:52:59keeping them in sync,
0:53:00making sure all your edits are available in all places,
0:53:03contacts are less precious than photos.
0:53:05And I'm not sure Apple has proven that it's up to the task
0:53:08to even doing, forget about metadata,
0:53:10forget about anything else,
0:53:11just the concept of I've taken a photo,
0:53:13it exists or doesn't exist,
0:53:14and it is accessible everywhere.
0:53:16Simply that, it may be below the bar of things that Apple is able to pull off, or is thus
0:53:21far proven that it's able to pull off, because I can't think of a single system that involves
0:53:25data goes in one place and is available everywhere that works flawlessly and has reasonable debugging
0:53:30recourse in Apple's environment. Whether it's photos, or we just talked about messages last
0:53:35time, which is just simple text, my confidence is low. Yeah, and I think that's fair. I think
0:53:44what's going to happen is it'll work great for most people and and by the way
0:53:50I think most people once the photos thing is clouded I guess Wow yeah sorry
0:53:58most people might lose most of the need for their own backups because you figure
0:54:04like what most people do with their computers is pretty basic by by geek
0:54:10standards it's the you know you internet stuff which is kind of always inherently
0:54:14backed up because you can just log into stuff.
0:54:16And then, you know, photos, maybe some documents
0:54:18here and there.
0:54:19Well, documents are now being moved to iCloud
0:54:21in a lot of cases, or at least people are using Dropbox
0:54:25or things like Dropbox.
0:54:26With the new iCloud Drive thing, even more people
0:54:29will be using something like that.
0:54:30So that's kind of all covered, especially if iCloud Drive
0:54:33becomes like the default place to save files by the system,
0:54:37which it almost certainly would be.
0:54:38That's backed up.
0:54:39You have all the contact calendar, all that data backed up.
0:54:42You have everything on your phone, you know,
0:54:44Your music collection, your media collection,
0:54:46that's all backed up through iTunes Match if you have that.
0:54:50If you bought it through iTunes, it's backed up anyway.
0:54:53And then now we're gonna have all your photos backed up.
0:54:55I think this is gonna really remove the need
0:54:58for a lot of people to have backups.
0:55:00And furthermore, for people who don't have backups,
0:55:03which is unfortunately most people,
0:55:05having their photos be one of the things
0:55:07that is always inherently backed up,
0:55:10when they do have catastrophic data lost,
0:55:12it'll be much less of an issue.
0:55:14It'll be much less devastating
0:55:16because they will have all their photos again.
0:55:18That, and that's something that people almost always,
0:55:20like that's their number one regret
0:55:22when they have data loss,
0:55:23that they lost their photos from X time interval
0:55:25or this entire kid's existence or something like that.
0:55:28So I think the benefit here is impossible to overstate.
0:55:32- Well, we've talked about this many times.
0:55:34We all want this.
0:55:35We all want it to be,
0:55:36to someone to take care of our photos.
0:55:37What I'm saying now is not that I think it's a bad idea
0:55:40for our photos to be in the cloud,
0:55:41is that I want someone to take care of my photos
0:55:43and I'm not sure that Apple is the one that I trust.
0:55:46And even the Everpix scenario,
0:55:48the reason Everpix was exciting was because
0:55:51Everpix would promise to take care of all your photos,
0:55:53but I was not entrusting my photos to Everpix
0:55:56because I still had my iPhoto library, you know what I mean?
0:55:58I was still backing up.
0:55:59It was one more thing.
0:56:01It's the scariness of saying,
0:56:03not only is Apple volunteering to take care of your photos,
0:56:06and not only do you hope Apple's gonna do this right,
0:56:08but your photos won't be anyplace else.
0:56:11Like, you know, you have like, all your eggs
0:56:14are in one basket, and you just better watch that basket,
0:56:16right?
0:56:17And if it works, like that's exactly what we want.
0:56:19Apple, please take care of the photo problem for us.
0:56:21And like you said, like the amount of local data,
0:56:23like why don't we just all buy Chromebooks at this point?
0:56:25Because we think if we won't, you know,
0:56:26everything's in Dropbox or in iCloud,
0:56:28and your photos are all backed up,
0:56:29and your iMessages are all backed up.
0:56:31What local data is that?
0:56:32You know, your email's all on a server somewhere
0:56:34using IMAP, like the stuff that's local to your device,
0:56:38it becomes just like a local cache,
0:56:40which is again what we're all looking for,
0:56:41is like tiered storage with a grid-fast local cache,
0:56:44but none of your data needs to be there,
0:56:46so you could smash your computer with a hammer,
0:56:48get a new one, sign in with your Apple ID,
0:56:50download Dropbox, install it,
0:56:52wait a day and a half for your caches to warm up,
0:56:54and then you're back in business.
0:56:56That's where we wanna all get,
0:56:57it's just that I'm not sure Apple has proven
0:57:00that it's the one to take us there.
0:57:02CloudKit, which apparently this is all based on,
0:57:03is way better technologically speaking
0:57:05from a understandability standpoint
0:57:07than the previous one.
0:57:08So, signs point in the right direction, as does the idea that they're even doing this
0:57:12at all, that they're having the guts to say, "They're putting all their eggs on
0:57:15baskets too. Aperture gone, iPhoto gone, Photos is the way, it's cloud backup for everything."
0:57:20And then they say, "Trust us," and wink.
0:57:22Right. And I think I totally agree with you that it is very important, like, how they
0:57:26implement the Mac client. Things like, how does it store its files? Is there an option
0:57:32somewhere to say, "Always store my entire library on this computer"? So you can do
0:57:37do things like maintain your own backups.
0:57:39'Cause look, I think that's important too.
0:57:42As much as I put a lot of faith in the Apple ecosystem,
0:57:45I'm also not an idiot, and I will always maintain
0:57:49my own backups as well, and I wouldn't use a photo system
0:57:53that didn't give me that option to easily and reasonably
0:57:56do that, and automatically do that.
0:57:59It is very important, and I hope Apple knows that
0:58:02when they're implementing this.
0:58:03And this might be one of those things where it might
0:58:05get worse before it gets better.
0:58:07Maybe version one might not have much of that visibility or might not have the right limits
0:58:12or the right options rather.
0:58:13Well, like you said, like the people who care about that, that's not who this is designed
0:58:17for.
0:58:18And I wouldn't blame Apple for never having that feature in there.
0:58:20It's just that they just, they need to get it right.
0:58:22Like the rest of it.
0:58:23Like they're, the big thing is there needs to be some recourse.
0:58:25Say something goes weird and all your pictures are black, like mine were in photo stream
0:58:28for awhile, you know, or like you just get a bunch of black squares that are the right
0:58:32aspect ratios and the right sizes, but they're all black.
0:58:35What do I do in that case?
0:58:37Do I just stare at it and hope?
0:58:39Do I delete the photo stream and reinstall it?
0:58:41Do I delete all my local photos and resync them?
0:58:44Like I have very, and I tried all those things and they kept coming back black.
0:58:48What do I do at that point?
0:58:49And if that was the only place my photos are, I'd be freaking out, right?
0:58:52And so I'm not saying that, again, I'm not saying they need a way to debug this.
0:58:55They just need to either get it right all the time or give people some kind of tool
0:59:00to fix it when it's not.
0:59:01saying it right all the time is preferable,
0:59:03but maybe asking too much.
0:59:06- As we move to this world of cloud stuff
0:59:08and cloud hosted things,
0:59:10we do lose a lot of that flexibility
0:59:13and a lot of those fail safes of,
0:59:15like if I want to, for example,
0:59:17if I want to move my entire iTunes library
0:59:20to a new computer,
0:59:22the way I would always do it would be
0:59:24to actually just move the entire directory over.
0:59:27And it worked, like 'cause everything,
0:59:29all the data it read was there.
0:59:31and it was all baked into this one folder
0:59:34and you could quit the app, move this folder,
0:59:37restart the app, bing, all of a sudden
0:59:39there's all your stuff.
0:59:40Whereas something like this that's more opaque
0:59:41or something that's cloud-based, you can't do that.
0:59:44And so you're right, it does make it hard to do things
0:59:45like restore from a backup or undo a major bulk change.
0:59:50- Or like sign out of one Apple ID
0:59:52and sign into another Apple ID and then you're like,
0:59:54oh, is it gonna blow away all my photos
0:59:55from the previous Apple ID?
0:59:56Is there gonna be smart and save them?
0:59:59Like iPhoto, I mean, they designed it in,
1:00:02but then it kind of hid the feature.
1:00:03That's why you had applications like iPhoto Library Manager,
1:00:06or just hold down the option key when you launch iPhoto,
1:00:08if you don't know about that,
1:00:08to like pick a different library.
1:00:09So we have multiple iPhoto libraries,
1:00:11where we've split things off various times,
1:00:13but that is not, it's even less commonly used feature,
1:00:16I think.
1:00:17- Right, exactly.
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1:03:50- All right, so are we done with this photos thing?
1:03:52- We're never done with the photos thing,
1:03:53but we can be done tonight.
1:03:55- Oh, that's what I meant.
1:03:56I mean, we're turning into the prompt at this point.
1:03:59- We're probably gonna get a mountain
1:04:00of feedback on this too.
1:04:01- The next exciting step in the photos thing
1:04:03will be like after the release versions
1:04:07of all these different OSs come out,
1:04:09and I, assuming there is any upgrade path,
1:04:11I try taking my iPhoto library and saying,
1:04:14here you go photos, what do you make of this?
1:04:16And then we wait, I suppose, and see what happens.
1:04:19Does it, do I end in a functional final situation?
1:04:23Does it, you know, how long does it take
1:04:25to get the photos there?
1:04:26You know, does it, do I require double the amount
1:04:28of storage space to get to the final destination?
1:04:31I don't know, that will be an exciting day.
1:04:33Certainly I will do lots of backups first.
1:04:35- One thing though, I mean this is a really,
1:04:37really promising thing for people who have smaller devices.
1:04:41Like this is, I think this is gonna dramatically reduce
1:04:44the amount of space a lot of people need
1:04:45on their iOS devices, which is funny,
1:04:47'cause like, you know, the rumors are this might be,
1:04:49this might finally be the year where they start at 32.
1:04:51- By the year they finally do a storage bump, yeah.
1:04:53I keep hoping that for iTunes match,
1:04:55'cause I like iTunes match,
1:04:56except when it totally destroys my installation of iTunes,
1:04:58causing it to absorb gigabytes of memory
1:05:00every time I launch it.
1:05:01But other than that, when it works, I like it.
1:05:04And I like the idea that, you know,
1:05:06I enable it on my iOS devices,
1:05:08because the whole idea is that
1:05:09if I start to run out of space,
1:05:10the OS is supposed to say,
1:05:11"Oh, well, let me just start ditching some of these,
1:05:15you know, some of these audio files,
1:05:16because I know they're on iTunes match,
1:05:17if the person listens to them, I'll just stream them down later.
1:05:21You know what I mean? It's supposed to be like cash space. It's expendable.
1:05:24I don't need to sync a particular playlist onto my iPod.
1:05:27I can have my entire music collection available and just the songs
1:05:30that I play can be there. And there's a little cloud button.
1:05:32You can say download this whole playlist and stuff like that.
1:05:34And I hope that doesn't mean that it's now going to refuse
1:05:37to expunge from memory the ones I forcibly downloaded.
1:05:41But every time I start to fill up in disk space, I'm like,
1:05:44why don't you just pull things some stuff off iTunes match?
1:05:46That's the kind of the point of it.
1:05:47So photos I'm hoping for the same thing that I'll have access to all my photos
1:05:50But that at any one time I don't guarantee that any of them are actually on the device because you know, they wouldn't all fit
1:05:56Yeah, I think that's how it was advertised to work
1:05:59We'll have to go we'll have to see what happens
1:06:01But I'm pretty sure that was the whole idea was that
1:06:03All your photos will be backed up as long as you subscribe to one of these plan things
1:06:07And what do you get for free? You get a pretty good amount - wasn't it like 20 gigs or something?
1:06:11Whatever it is. It's pointless for me. But yeah for regular people
1:06:14Well it's a good starter thing to get you suckered into eventually having to pay.
1:06:17Right and but yeah I think the whole idea was like this is this is a big part of I think
1:06:23their solution to iOS storage management which is just start removing some of them some of
1:06:28the biggest things that fill up everyone's space.
1:06:30Yeah and make it so they're removable make it so they can be purged basically if space
1:06:35starts to get tight because you can't really purge apps I mean they haven't gotten to that
1:06:38point they'll the apps are gonna stay so if you download some big giant game.
1:06:41Well, they do run the cleaning things.
1:06:43Yeah.
1:06:44The cleaning pass that kills all the apps temporary things
1:06:46and deletes all your new standard issues.
1:06:48In theory, they could delete like,
1:06:49oh, we're gonna get rid of Infinity Blade
1:06:51'cause it's gigantic.
1:06:51And the next time you play, we'll download after you tap.
1:06:54(laughs)
1:06:55It will still keep the icon there,
1:06:56but when you tap it, it'll be like,
1:06:57oh, actually we removed that from your system earlier.
1:06:59I'll see if there's room now and download.
1:07:01Can't get blood from a stone like storages.
1:07:04They don't have magical transparent tiered storage
1:07:06ending in the cloud quite yet,
1:07:07but this is all along the path there.
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1:09:30- John, you wanna tell me what you think
1:09:32about the airport extreme?
1:09:34- I didn't think much about it at all
1:09:35because I don't have one other than I didn't like it
1:09:36it as a fan, but we've discussed that in the past.
1:09:39But today, someone—I saw something retweeted from Jim Ray on Twitter, I forget who retweeted
1:09:45it, and it was about the new airport, you know, the big tower thing, the thing that
1:09:53looks like a tissue box stood on its end, and it's designed to hold a hard drive, but
1:09:56only the time capsule version holds a hard drive, but both the time capsule and the hard
1:10:03hard drive-less airport, use the same case. Anyway, this was not about the fans or the
1:10:09hard drive, this was about ports on the back. Do you guys load the pictures that I put in
1:10:13there?
1:10:14I saw that, and he's totally right.
1:10:16Alright, so here's the tweet from Jim Ray, it says "design is how it works" in quotes.
1:10:21"Hey Johnny" which he spelled wrong, but that's okay. "Maybe turn the ports 90 degrees so
1:10:25we can actually unplug the goddamn things." And what he's talking about is the Ethernet
1:10:29jacks on the back of this vertical tower airport base station. The Ethernet ports are done
1:10:36so the little clicky, whatever you call it, release thing on the RJ45 things is on the
1:10:41top. But the ports are stacked on top of each other, so to release the middle one you have
1:10:46to wedge your finger between the middle one and the top one and get your fingernail onto
1:10:50that little thing and then try to disengage it. And he's saying rotate them 90 degrees
1:10:55so that all of the little whatever their release thingies would all be accessible.
1:11:00They'd all be on the left side or on the right side instead of having them instead of having
1:11:04to shove your fingers between the two little ports. The picture explains it better. We'll
1:11:07put the picture in the show notes so you can take a look at it. And I retweeted this because
1:11:11I thought this was a very good point and it reminded me of a sore spot that I have.
1:11:16I'm calling it Johnny Eye of design which is not fair because he's just the head of a large design
1:11:21He's not designing all these things himself. He's not even like telling people how they should be designed
1:11:26He has a team of people designing them presumably he approves them or disapproves or gives advice, but it's not all his fault
1:11:31But can you imagine Johnny Ive sitting around like for like 90 days working on this brand new revolutionary design for a wireless router?
1:11:38Well, but the thing is like people think that he's there and he designs everything so they come out
1:11:42You know, it was his idea to make the the Mac a trashcan
1:11:46It was his idea to design the I'm I get like and certain things are his idea
1:11:49Like he has he has certain things that are his designs, but so many other things aren't he's got an entire team
1:11:55but he's the figurehead and so
1:11:57I'm blaming it all on him because you know the Bucks got to stop somewhere
1:12:01When I look at this, I know exactly why the ports are that way on this thing or least so I tell myself
1:12:07and you know because I just go into the mind of Johnny I've or the mind of his organization that he runs and
1:12:12I've looked at all the products they've made over the years and and it seems clear to me that they're like they are that way
1:12:18because it looks better that way. And this is the tension, aesthetics versus usability.
1:12:23And the whole design is how it works thing makes it sound like that the balance is way over,
1:12:29oh usability is the most important thing and aesthetics are secondary. But if you look at
1:12:34any device that came out of the Johnny Ive apple, even in the pre-Steve Jobs era, that he had a hand
1:12:40in designing or was ahead of the design studio when it was made, aesthetics is a huge part of
1:12:45out is designed. And far be it for me to say that aesthetic shouldn't be a factor because then
1:12:49everything will look like oxo good grips, right? Oh, I bet even then there's some aesthetics
1:12:53creeping in there. But there's a balance between make it usable but also make it look nice,
1:12:59but hopefully don't compromise on the usability too much for the sake of aesthetics. And I think
1:13:06the "Johnny Ive" apple, if we're going to call it that, has crossed the line many, many times
1:13:10and is stubborn about it and will not go back. And this, the back of the airport, looks like
1:13:15a situation where they cross the line. Not a big deal, because all the people on Twitter replied,
1:13:19said, "Oh, how often do you plug and unplug things? Who really cares? It's not so hard to
1:13:25wedge your fingers in there. If they rotated them 90 degrees it would have been more expensive,"
1:13:30and all sorts of other things like that. And I mostly didn't pursue these avenues,
1:13:36except for the most expensive, more expensive one, so I looked at it, I immediately went to
1:13:39the iFixit teardown to see what the heck was going on inside there. And that's in another link in the
1:13:43notes. And it turns out that the ports, which should not be surprising to anybody who has seen
1:13:47one of these towers or the new Mac Pro, the ports are already at 45 degree angles coming off of the
1:13:54printed circuit board. So there are obviously expense is not this is not like what's the
1:13:59cheapest way we can make these ethernet ports pop out of this board just solder them on. They're
1:14:03already coming out at a 45 degree angle and they're coming out at a 45 degree angle with the contacts
1:14:08running, I don't know how to explain this, the distance from each contact to the printed circuit
1:14:16board is different. So the contact closest to you when you're looking at the printed circuit board
1:14:21flat is much longer than the contact closest to the board because it's in an angle that way. If
1:14:25they were rotated 90 degrees as suggested it seems to me that if anything it would either be the same
1:14:30price or cheaper to mount them that way because then all the contacts from the Ethernet connectors
1:14:34would have equal distances to the board. But who knows, maybe it's the same price. But the point
1:14:38is this device was not designed with cost concerns.
1:14:42If you look at how it was constructed,
1:14:43it's kind of like the Mac Pro with the hard drive
1:14:46on an angle in the middle with fins
1:14:49and sort of a chimney type effect.
1:14:50And it's a very fancy design.
1:14:53It is not made to be the cheapest possible thing
1:14:55to manufacture.
1:14:55Inside it looks fairly expensive.
1:15:00So I'm not gonna buy cost there.
1:15:01You get back to, all right, so if it's not,
1:15:04if a cost is not concerned, why are these things vertical?
1:15:06And I really do think it looks better when they're vertical.
1:15:09It's symmetrical.
1:15:09If you were to divide the device in half vertically,
1:15:12if you were to draw a straight line down the middle
1:15:14of these ports and split it in half,
1:15:16it's symmetrical on the right and left side.
1:15:17Whereas if the ports were sideways,
1:15:19the rest of the device would be vertically symmetrical,
1:15:21but then the ports would not be.
1:15:22One half would have the little flanges,
1:15:23one half wouldn't have it.
1:15:24And this is not that big a deal,
1:15:28but it's emblematic of the line
1:15:32that I think the modern Apple crosses many other times.
1:15:36And I put a couple of examples,
1:15:37other examples in the show notes
1:15:38that I've complained about previously on the show.
1:15:41The MacBook keyboards, this is a little bit economics too.
1:15:44So you can throw Tim Cook under the bus for this one as well.
1:15:47Why does the 15 inch and why did back in the day,
1:15:50the 17 inch one have the exact same keyboard
1:15:52as the smaller model?
1:15:53Makes no sense.
1:15:54There's no reason that the current 15 inch MacBook Air
1:15:57can't have full size arrow keys.
1:15:58Oh, there's a reason,
1:15:59'cause they wanna use the same exact keyboard they do
1:16:01on all the other MacBooks, and on the Airs for that matter.
1:16:05There's an economy of scale there,
1:16:07but it's also making the larger product worse,
1:16:11most charitably to save money, and least charitably,
1:16:14because if you put full-size arrow keys,
1:16:16then the keyboard wouldn't be symmetrical anymore,
1:16:18and it looks ugly.
1:16:19So that's why it doesn't have full-size arrow keys,
1:16:20'cause the little inverted T would be on one side,
1:16:22but not on the other.
1:16:23Or any sort of key-type arrangement
1:16:25to try to get a reasonable inverted T in there
1:16:28would necessarily bump out somewhere
1:16:30or push some other keys around or otherwise be awkward.
1:16:33Ports in the back of the iMac,
1:16:36it's great being able to plug things
1:16:37into the front of my old style tower Mac Pro,
1:16:39even if I have to bend down a little bit for it.
1:16:42Having ports accessible to you
1:16:43when you wanna plug something in quickly is great.
1:16:45The iMac has all the ports in the back
1:16:47because it's prettier.
1:16:48Every time you wanna plug and unplug something,
1:16:49you gotta dig around back there.
1:16:51It is not comfortable, it's not a good experience.
1:16:53- That's actually one of the frequent annoyances
1:16:55with the new Mac Pro is that there isn't,
1:16:57I don't have two front USB ports anymore.
1:17:00And I use those all the time on my old Mac Pro.
1:17:03And the new one, if I want a USB port,
1:17:06I need to turn the thing around and go to the back
1:17:08and get fingerprints all over it.
1:17:09And it's not nearly as useful as having them
1:17:12right there on the front, but I recognize that
1:17:14it would not look as good if it had USB ports
1:17:17on the front side of it.
1:17:18- Now that's a little bit of a size constraint too,
1:17:20'cause that machine got so much smaller
1:17:21that so many things become, oh, the answer is now
1:17:23I have a breakout box.
1:17:24And so you could have a little breakout USB hub
1:17:26and stick that on your desk somewhere.
1:17:27Like that's always the answer for that tiny little Mac Pro
1:17:29Oh, you can't fit it inside and you can't fit it on but you can connect the cable to and then have a peripheral
1:17:35I give it a little bit of an out for the size thing, but it's similar in
1:17:38You're mentioning how weird it is to try to plug things into the back of it like are are the ports aligned?
1:17:45Along a line that goes through the center of the Mac or are they I don't even know the answer to this you can tell
1:17:51Me are they are the ports parallel to each other in the two rows or are they all?
1:17:57perpendicular is the horizontal surface of the ports perpendicular to a tangent of the circle I
1:18:02Don't think I know what you mean. However, the the the surface that the ports are on is curved with the case
1:18:08Right, but what are the ports like are the two USB ports?
1:18:12Parallel to each other if you were to extend lines out along the USB ports
1:18:17Would they be parallel to each other or would they would they the lines intersect they would diverge?
1:18:23Yeah, because they basically the two USB ports are pointed in different directions. Yeah, because they follow the curvature, right?
1:18:28So you could make the two USB ports both exactly like flat and going forward instead
1:18:34They both go towards the center
1:18:35And so you have to sort of calculate the angle when you're plugging in back there
1:18:38So your cables jut out of it at angles instead of driving out stream and all the ports feel the same too
1:18:42which so you have like
1:18:43You have to turn it around and look because all like all the ports are
1:18:46Almost the same size and all feel the same like you have you have the four USBs and then the six thunderbolts right next to each
1:18:52other. Everything's very close to each other. And so yeah, it's not made to be done blindly.
1:18:57Someone in the chat room is saying that USB ports are parallel. We're all using the wrong
1:19:01terms here. I'm visualizing the right thing in my head. But anyway, what we're saying is that if
1:19:05you took that USB port and pushed it really, really hard and just tunneled through the device
1:19:09in exactly the direction of the port, it would hit the center of the Mac Pro. And that's true for both
1:19:13of the ports. And they would intersect. That's correct. Yeah. And if you plugged in two cables
1:19:17to them that were not flexible at all, were just straight rods, they would form diverging lines.
1:19:21Right, and so what we were saying for parallel was the other option they could have gone with is that the USB ports were exactly parallel
1:19:26And if you were to extend cables out from them forever perfectly stiff, they would never hit each other
1:19:30That's what we're talking about. Anyway, I don't know if that's a compromise for aesthetics
1:19:35but you know
1:19:36The ports in the back of the iMac stand out because the iMac is such a massive machine and it's supposed to be a home
1:19:41Machine it's the type of thing that people might plug and unplug things in but they had to be hidden there
1:19:44I was gonna pick the Mac cube
1:19:45But that's kind of a low blow where the ports were not only on the back
1:19:50but underneath on the back and it was super hard to get at those because it looked better and the final I put in there
1:19:55was a
1:19:56IOS 7 buttons, I mean that they got rid of the button outline because it looked nicer
1:20:00But then it wasn't always clear whether something was a button or not
1:20:03I'm not saying these are like fatal flaws and that or that they're always over this line
1:20:07I'm saying there is a line and you have to decide where in that line you fall and I feel like my
1:20:11opinion of good design is
1:20:15closer to usability or at the usability side of the spectrum in that in the challenge in the
1:20:21Tension between aesthetics and usability and I appreciate the aesthetics. I like that they are pretty but
1:20:26I'm not just designing them in a lab and looking at plans and
1:20:30Looking at the beautiful polished fingerprint free thing on a pedestal and saying yeah, my work is done
1:20:34I'm using the things every day and that's where the aesthetics start to fade and
1:20:39You know not so much because I don't want some ugly PC tower. Like I like the aesthetics. I like having beautiful things
1:20:44on my desk. They make me feel better to have nice things like, I mean, Marker, you talked about looking at your little Mac Pro.
1:20:49It makes you happy to have that thing there. But there's a line between that and usability.
1:20:55It depends on how much do you value that niceness over difficulty of getting into ports.
1:20:59And, you know, the other one I wanted to mention is the edges of the MacBooks,
1:21:04where they used to be super sharp when they were unibody things, and you're not supposed to rest your wrist,
1:21:08please, everybody, if you're resting your wrist on something when you type, do not rest your wrist.
1:21:11But the bottom line is people do occasionally rest their wrists, and it was way too sharp
1:21:15And why because it looked really nice it really did it looked very elegant, but there's a line there
1:21:20It's like that mean they took the edge off in later models, so they said okay. Let's not quite make it that sharp
1:21:24I still think it's a little bit over the line in terms of
1:21:26It looks like a beautiful piece of sculpture
1:21:28But it's not quite as pleasing to handle as it would be if it was a little bit more rounded over
1:21:32But anyway, these are just a couple examples sure people come with their own. I just feel like this balance
1:21:37That we have a difference of opinion if I ever got to interview Johnny I if this is all I would talk to him about
1:21:41Is how do you manage the tension between?
1:21:43Aesthetics and usability and why are you so wrong in all these cases?
1:21:47We'll be a great interview. He would love it. Yeah, I
1:21:50Think everyone else would love it at least no one ever talks to him about design
1:21:54That's a shame like when they get interviews with them
1:21:56They just talk to him in a way that he can speak in generalities. No one ever I mean, that's not an interview
1:21:59That's why I'm a terrible interviewer like an interview is you let the interviewer talk about things
1:22:03You don't have an axe to grind with them. But anyway yours is an interrogation. Yeah
1:22:06Yeah, mine would be more of an interrogation style, less of an—yeah, this is why I don't
1:22:11interview people. But anyway, I think I would enjoy it at least.
1:22:14I think, honestly, most people would enjoy listening to an interrogation, but most people
1:22:19would not enjoy being interrogated.
1:22:22I think it would be a fruitful discussion, because I'm sure he has reasons behind all
1:22:25these things, and it's not like one is totally wrong and one is totally right. It's just
1:22:28where do we draw that line and why? And I mean, maybe I'm alone in thinking that I
1:22:33is a little bit farther on the aesthetics
1:22:36towards the aesthetic spectrum than I think most people are.
1:22:39We all love aesthetics, we all love beautiful Macs,
1:22:41we all love our beautiful iOS devices,
1:22:43we obviously value aesthetics probably way more
1:22:45than the average person we're willing to pay
1:22:47all this money for,
1:22:47like in just the hardware, the software, everything,
1:22:50we place value on this, it's just that there is,
1:22:54sometimes it just seems to go a little bit too far
1:22:56in one little tiny area and you feel like
1:22:59I would give up that little aesthetic flourish,
1:23:02I would give up perfectly symmetrical ports
1:23:03to just turn them 90 degrees.
1:23:04Even if I don't unplug and plug these things,
1:23:06the three times a year when I have to reach back there
1:23:09to unplug something, it drives me nuts.
1:23:10And I say, "Oh, Johnny,
1:23:11"if you just could have rotated them 90 degrees."
1:23:13I never look at the back of this thing anyway.
1:23:15It would make life so much easier.
1:23:17And he would be tasked with defending
1:23:19the beauty of the symmetrical arrangement
1:23:22of something that people don't look at
1:23:24and doesn't give them as much joy as, say,
1:23:26a super shiny Mac Pro does.
1:23:27- Well, also like, "Oh, Johnny,
1:23:29"could you maybe add more than three ethernet ports?"
1:23:31like really on a top of the line wireless router.
1:23:35- I don't think he's picking that.
1:23:36I'm not gonna blame him for the number of ports.
1:23:38- Well, but it's like, you know, like you have to,
1:23:39and this is a part of design, you have to consider design
1:23:42in practice, in real life, what people actually do,
1:23:44applied design, right?
1:23:46And the reality is, if you only have three ethernet ports,
1:23:50a lot of people are going to ruin your awesome design
1:23:52by putting a big fat ugly switch right next to it.
1:23:55Similar thing with the Mac Pro, like,
1:23:56if you don't build in enough stuff people use
1:23:58or enough storage capacity or enough things,
1:24:00enough capabilities, you're gonna have this beautiful metal cylinder sitting next to the
1:24:04crappiest blue LED filled USB hub and 10,000 Thunderbolt enclosures and drive enclosures
1:24:11and all this crap. That ruins the design. To me, that's actually a design flaw. If you're
1:24:18making a design that doesn't account for real life and then in real life it will simply
1:24:22become worse.
1:24:23And see, when I think of these designers' desks, and I think this was even mentioned
1:24:27in one of the Johnny Ives books, maybe about his desk or someone else, but when I think
1:24:29of their desk, I think of them arranging their beautifully designed products in the number
1:24:34and like, that they would buy special white ethernet cables to exactly fit this. They
1:24:38would arrange just on their desk, they would just have their MacBook and they would probably
1:24:42not even have a cable to a big display and maybe like these two beautiful little speakers.
1:24:46What they would do is say, if this doesn't have enough ports and this doesn't have any
1:24:50items, then I don't want it. Because having that item would destroy the aesthetic value,
1:24:56not purity, but like just that that this is a beautiful arrangement and I
1:25:00Would really like it if I could have an extra hard drive or more USB ports
1:25:03But I do not want that feature enough to take an ugly USB hub and shove it on here
1:25:07You know, I that's that's where they're drawing the line. They say maybe it would be nice to have more USB ports
1:25:12But I'm willing to forego the USB ports to have a nicer desk arrangement and I make a different value judgment for my desk
1:25:19I'm gonna say I would rather have the USB port despite the fact that I can't stand how ugly it is. Like you just said
1:25:25And at that point, then you revisit,
1:25:28and why does this have so few USB ports?
1:25:29Or why does it have so few Ethernet ports?
1:25:31Maybe that's a cost thing,
1:25:32maybe that's a feature thing or whatever,
1:25:33but those are the trade-offs.
1:25:34Even the sides of a lot of the MacBooks,
1:25:36you're like, hmm, this 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro
1:25:39probably had room for one more USB port on the side,
1:25:41and it would really make my life easier.
1:25:43Again, you can't tell if that's cost-concerned
1:25:46or space constraints inside there or whatever,
1:25:47but some issues are more cut and dry,
1:25:49and I think the keyboarder on the 15-inch
1:25:52is probably my biggest issue.
1:25:55Economics aside, this is an expensive piece of hardware,
1:25:57giving me full-size arrow keys,
1:25:58giving me a different keyboard.
1:26:00- Well, although I can also see the benefit there of,
1:26:04as a user, that all the keyboards
1:26:06and all the Apple products are all the same keyboard,
1:26:08like that, or they're close enough, rather, but--
1:26:10- I'm rotating through my fleet of Apple devices.
1:26:12How many laptops do people have?
1:26:14I'm willing to say, when I'm on the 13-inch one,
1:26:17I will use the compact keyboard.
1:26:19When I'm on the 15-inch, I want the expensive keyboard.
1:26:21Like, I mean, at that point,
1:26:22why not just have all of your Macs have
1:26:23whatever the smallest screen any of them have.
1:26:25Because then your screen arrangement
1:26:27will always be the same.
1:26:28- Oh boy, all right.
1:26:29We should probably end the show.
1:26:31Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,
1:26:33Igloo, Hover, and Lynda.com.
1:26:36And we will see you next week.
1:26:38(upbeat music)
1:26:41Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin
1:26:46'Cause it was accidental (accidental)
1:26:48Oh, it was accidental (accidental)
1:26:51John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him
1:26:56'Cause it was accidental (accidental)
1:26:59It was accidental (accidental)
1:27:02And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm
1:27:07And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
1:27:16So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M
1:27:20Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-Racusa
1:27:28It's accidental (It's accidental)
1:27:31They didn't mean to (It's accidental)
1:27:36Tech.com so long
1:27:40Hey guys. Oh yeah, you're here. You're still here. Hi. Hi.
1:27:45Show butts still up. That's amazing. I thought they said
1:27:48it. I thought they said it died. I saw a message in the
1:27:50chat room like an hour ago that said it was down. They're
1:27:54crazy. Does it have any data in it or is it just like they're
1:27:58empty? No, it's real. It's there, man. You don't give me
1:28:02any respect. Alright, alright. I'm loading the page now but
1:28:05I'm gonna see the word connecting in a really big font.
1:28:08- You will no matter what.
1:28:09- No, actually I'm just gonna see
1:28:11the loading animation in Safari.
1:28:12Safari does this to me occasionally
1:28:14where I will try to load a page
1:28:16and it makes me think that it thinks
1:28:18the OS is out of file descriptors.
1:28:20But I'm like, why is it waiting?
1:28:22This site should be fast, why is it not opening?
1:28:25And I know the system is not out of file descriptors
1:28:27that would manifest in a different way,
1:28:28but I've actually run into situations
1:28:29where the system has been out of file descriptors
1:28:31because I run local databases and that happens sometimes
1:28:33if you don't adjust your kernel parameters.
1:28:36And it'll just be sitting there.
1:28:37And in the time that I'm waiting for the Safari page to load,
1:28:40I will copy the URL out of the address bar,
1:28:42go over to Chrome, make a new tab,
1:28:43paste it in, load the web page.
1:28:45Loads instantly.
1:28:46I go back to Safari, and it'll still be waiting.
1:28:48Anyway, now it says list is more.
1:28:50The blue gradient in the Safari address bar
1:28:52is about a little bit less than halfway.
1:28:55I still see nothing underneath the little nav bar.
1:28:58Still waiting for it to load.
1:28:59You should restore your phone.
1:29:01I agree.
1:29:02I'm going to do it right now.
1:29:03I'm going to take this text.
1:29:04I'm going to go over to Chrome.
1:29:06Paste in the URL, load it, it says connecting,
1:29:09titles have loaded.
1:29:09Boom, done.
1:29:11Let me go back to Safari, see how it's doing.
1:29:13Oh, it's finally loaded.
1:29:14- Wow.
1:29:15- People wonder why I run both Safari and Chrome all day.
1:29:18This is why.
1:29:20- So now that it has survived an entire show,
1:29:23because even if it craps out now, I'm counting it.
1:29:25- Is there a sort by votes?
1:29:28- No, and that's exactly what I was about to say,
1:29:29is I think the next step is sort by votes.
1:29:32- Well, I mean, there's no sort by,
1:29:33what's the point of the show bot
1:29:34if there's no sort by votes?
1:29:35Because I wanted to make sure the showbot could live John.
1:29:38I wanted life to find a way.
1:29:41Can I complain about the layout again?
1:29:42Yeah, I don't know.
1:29:43I, you can, because I don't remember.
1:29:45I took notes on a couple of them and I did change it.
1:29:47I like that.
1:29:48They're not centered line anymore, but you have, you have a number.
1:29:52Then sometimes you have a blue plus or minus thing that I can't
1:29:56tell if it's a control or something.
1:29:57Then you have a title, then you have author and time.
1:30:00So the time fine, whatever author seems to work.
1:30:03The titles are OK, a little bit close to votes, but I have no idea what's in the votes column.
1:30:07I see a number in the blue.
1:30:09What is the blue plus one sometimes there for?
1:30:11It's to vote.
1:30:12So this is the Johnny Ive again.
1:30:14I could not tell these were controls, but because you made the text blue, I'm supposed
1:30:17to surmise that this is a button.
1:30:18I suppose I could mouse over and see the hand cursor as well, but that is not obvious to
1:30:23me as a control at all.
1:30:24So you'd rather see like an up arrow or something?
1:30:26I don't know, something that looks like a control.
1:30:28I mean, that's the challenge.
1:30:29Like it used to be the way you made something look like a control is you drew a little puffy
1:30:32fake 3D mound, you know, like you drew something that was raised or beveled or shaded or seemed to be raised, you know,
1:30:40like you drew something that looked like you could press it in and then the iOS 7 thing is no, just change the text color
1:30:45No border needed doesn't need to be raised doesn't need to be anything. That's fair
1:30:49It looks like uh based on my list and i've not yet looked at Brad Schoetz's list
1:30:54Uh laughing at your showbot with you has the most votes
1:30:57Showbot lives is number one. No, it's not sorted. Oh god
1:31:01(laughter)
1:31:04- Can we go over the working show bot
1:31:05and sort these titles somehow?
1:31:06- Oh, man.
1:31:09- You gotta have sorting.
1:31:10What good is it if it's no sorting?
1:31:12The first thing you do is sort by votes.
1:31:14- No, the first thing you do is keep them.
1:31:16Keep them away.
1:31:17(laughter)
1:31:18- Yeah, it's like a speed and correctness
1:31:20and you went for speed.
1:31:21- No, I went for the thing that doesn't self-destruct.
1:31:25That's what I went for.
1:31:26- Also, your program can be really fast
1:31:28if it's not correct and your show bot
1:31:29can be up all the time,
1:31:30but if it doesn't have sort by titles,
1:31:31the first thing that we want to use a showbot for.
1:31:34It doesn't help.
1:31:35Anyway, congratulations on its thing up.
1:31:37Like I said, all, Zara Boogs.
1:31:38I gotta go find that for you for the show notes.
1:31:41- Oh no, it just died.
1:31:42Oh no.
1:31:43- Really?
1:31:44- Yeah.
1:31:44- Connecting, oh, that's it.
1:31:45- It threw an error again.
1:31:49- You were so close.
1:31:50- I know.
1:31:51Well, no, it still counts.
1:31:52- Well, it didn't make it through the whole show.
1:31:54We're not actually able to use the data.
1:31:57- All right, just stall while I'm doing this.
1:31:58I don't know what happened.
1:31:59- It says basically I tried to do something on a socket
1:32:02that apparently was not open.
1:32:04Hold on.
1:32:06- Oh my God, I've had a hell of a week.
1:32:08- Oh, what's going on?
1:32:09- I'm almost ready to ship.
1:32:11- I was gonna say, sold to overcast.
1:32:13- Wait, did you say you're almost ready to what now?
1:32:16- Ship.
1:32:19- Ah, okay.
1:32:20- Yeah, ship or get off the pot, Marco.
1:32:22- Exactly.
1:32:23(laughing)
1:32:24- Have you started potty trading yet?
1:32:27Not you personally, but.
1:32:28- No, I'm afraid of that.
1:32:30- Speaking of, yeah, well,
1:32:31it's one of those things that has to happen.
1:32:33- Yeah, I know, it's out there.
1:32:37- We schedule it for his 18th birthday.
1:32:39- Yeah. (laughs)
1:32:40Just hope he figures it out on his own.
1:32:42- That tends not to work, from my experience.
1:32:44- You know, I think what happened is,
1:32:46I think it was a race condition where,
1:32:48and actually Jeremy Banks has just put in a poll request.
1:32:51God, I love open source.
1:32:52Anyway, looking at it, not having seen what he said
1:32:55in his poll request, it looks like there was
1:32:56race condition where perhaps a socket disconnected
1:33:00but it hadn't been removed from my internal list O sockets.
1:33:04- Looking at the show bot that works again.
1:33:07Take your co-host to work day is probably
1:33:09is the number one that actually would be usable I think
1:33:12and it isn't about the show bot being up
1:33:14at the beginning of the show.
1:33:16That system is not going to scale.
1:33:18I like that a lot.
1:33:19- What was that in reference to?
1:33:20- You said it to Casey in reference to his
1:33:22photo non-management technique.
1:33:24- Yeah.
1:33:25(laughing)
1:33:26I mean, I guess if you never look at your photos, any system scales put them in the trash. I mean
1:33:30If you never look at them even one time after you took them why bother even putting them into date organized photos
1:33:38Yeah
1:33:38I like the idea that you think you're gonna remember
1:33:40like the year let alone the month or week that some memorable event happened and then you're gonna go to the you're gonna go right to
1:33:46That folder and find the picture that you want. That is a fantasy scenario of a young person
1:33:50I bet there's a lot of people who never look back at their photos
1:33:55Yeah, they have an easy photo Mandarin scheme for them, right?
1:33:58Beautifully rendered trash can in your dock. Well, that's that's kind of that's my my strategy
1:34:02So I have one of these Fujitsu scan snap scanners that everybody bought five years ago. Well, I did too and
1:34:07And so any kind of anything any paperwork I get in the mail
1:34:12I scan it and then I you know, I deal with it I scan it and I shred it
1:34:15So I have my I was I was really trying to like make this folder system where I'd organize
1:34:21"All right, the electric bills all go in this folder
1:34:23"and the gas bill all goes in this folder
1:34:25"and everything else."
1:34:26And I gave up on that within a couple of weeks.
1:34:29And since a few weeks after I got this thing,
1:34:32my system has been,
1:34:34I just scan everything into one giant folder
1:34:36and the file names are just timestamp based, just data.
1:34:39- But it does OCR though, isn't the whole point
1:34:41that it OCRs them so you can just type the name
1:34:43of your gas or electric company in Spotlight and find them?
1:34:46It doesn't OCR them?
1:34:47- It doesn't by default and mine is the S510M.
1:34:50It's a pretty old one, I think I got it in like 2007
1:34:53or something, it's pretty old.
1:34:54And the software it came with was very, very slow to OCR
1:34:59and was this whole separate app that would launch
1:35:01and that would quit.
1:35:02And so it added too many steps to the process.
1:35:05So I stopped doing that too.
1:35:07Now I just have the images.
1:35:09And my strategy is they all just get scanned
1:35:12into this one giant folder sorted by date.
1:35:15If I ever have to find something,
1:35:18I just go and flip through and I flip the flip
1:35:20with the up arrow key using quick look.
1:35:22- Presumably the volume is lower there,
1:35:24like the number of photos you take in a year
1:35:25is lower than the number of bills you get in a year.
1:35:27And that is where you're looking for years,
1:35:29'cause when the IRS comes in and you want your stuff
1:35:30from 2013, you want data organized,
1:35:32everything from 2013, here you go.
1:35:34- Right, but I'm saying it's a similar kind of thing
1:35:36where it's mostly a write-only system.
1:35:39It's write most of the time, read very occasionally,
1:35:43and so writes need to be quick and simple,
1:35:46and reads don't need to be that.
1:35:48And so it's a similar kind of thing.
1:35:51That's how most people, I think,
1:35:53treat their photo library,
1:35:54where you have to be able to just add to it
1:35:57without any effort whatsoever.
1:35:59Even if that comes at the expense of
1:36:01if you wanna find some particular one,
1:36:03it might take you a few extra minutes
1:36:05because you haven't spent hours over the last few years
1:36:09building up this giant system of metadata
1:36:11and sorting and organizing.
1:36:12- Well, someone said that actually the iOS 8
1:36:14has a little heart on every picture
1:36:16you can just tap kind of Instagram style to fave, right?
1:36:18And I think the next step in that would be,
1:36:21it could be that like,
1:36:23not that I'm saying they have the wrong default,
1:36:24but kind of in the messages where like in iOS 8,
1:36:27you have to say that you wanna keep them.
1:36:29What if it decided that if you didn't pay
1:36:32for iCloud storage, it would slowly delete the ones
1:36:34that you did in HART, you know, like your pictures.
1:36:37I mean, I don't think that's the right thing to do,
1:36:38but like, because so few pictures come out well
1:36:42or ever need to be looked at again,
1:36:45I bet most people's photo collections could be reduced by like 80% without any sentimental
1:36:50loss because of just the huge volume of garbage pictures that people have in their collections.
1:36:55And it's like, what they really care about is one or two or three good pictures of their
1:37:00kid at every age that they were, or a particularly memorable event, but not the hundreds of pictures
1:37:04that people end up taking, you know, just seven shots of the same person within a second,
1:37:11especially with like burst mode stuff on like real cameras.
1:37:13I mean real photographers have to discard that stuff because they can't keep all of
1:37:18it forever and they just pick the one or two good ones.
1:37:19A lot of the aperture work throw was about, they used to advertise like, "Oh, here's
1:37:23how you can pick your seven good shots out of the 800 you took," right?
1:37:27Regular people are not that severe, but that whole idea that you're going to take a lot
1:37:31of pictures, most of them are going to be crap, put the little hearts in the ones that
1:37:35you like, and that's your tool later for if you want to thin out your set of photos.
1:37:40Ditch the ones with no hearts.
1:37:41Oh yeah, I mean, just anecdotally, like the few times,
1:37:45I'll occasionally be in the mood
1:37:47to clean out my photo library,
1:37:48and I'll go back and like,
1:37:49I'll go back to whatever pictures from like a year ago,
1:37:53and I'll find this tremendous folder,
1:37:55and I'm like, why did I keep like 80% of these?
1:37:58And I'll go through, and it takes like hours
1:38:01to go through like a year worth of photos
1:38:02and delete all the crap, the blurry ones,
1:38:06the alternate takes that I ended up using a different one,
1:38:09or that I took three different photos
1:38:11the same thing and I picked the best one to use,
1:38:12but I forgot to delete the other two.
1:38:14And I can cut down a year of photos down by 80 or 90%
1:38:19without really losing anything of value just by doing that.
1:38:22But even that, most people don't even do that.
1:38:25I hardly even do that, and I just talked about it.
1:38:28Most people never do that.
1:38:29- A great cross-site scripting attack
1:38:32just popped up on Casey's Showbot.
1:38:34- Which is funny because I literally just pushed the fix
1:38:37to my website like two seconds ago.
1:38:40So if you're--
1:38:41A little alert just popped up that says,
1:38:44page at www.caseyless.com says, you
1:38:46should follow me on Twitter @jeremybanks.
1:38:49I post rarely, so it won't hurt your stream much.
1:38:51OK.
1:38:52Good job, Jeremy Banks.
1:38:53Not going to follow you, though, because your name
1:38:54wasn't clickable, and it would take too much effort
1:38:56to copy and paste it out of the dialogue.
1:38:58Also, you just hacked Casey's poor showbot.
1:39:00You're kicking a bot when it's down.
1:39:01No, no, no.
1:39:02He gets a buy because--
1:39:02I don't think he hacked it.
1:39:04Well, it was an issue.
1:39:05It wasn't really a hack.
1:39:06But he gets a buy because he's been actively trying
1:39:09to fix these vulnerabilities rather than just find them in--
1:39:13- Well, I'm assuming he just pasted JavaScript
1:39:15into the titles and then you've just
1:39:17beautifully rendered the JavaScript into the DOM
1:39:19and whee, off we go.
1:39:20(laughing)
1:39:21- Exactly.
1:39:22- Escaping, what's that?
1:39:23- So we got slightly sidetracked.
1:39:26So Overcast, you're pretty much ready.
1:39:28What's the holdup?
1:39:29- The holdup was, well, you know what the holdup was
1:39:31'cause you're on the beta, but I basically had
1:39:34a pretty sizable feature that I really decided
1:39:37that I wanted to add last minute.
1:39:39And so I probably, I had something that was almost 1.0
1:39:42a few days ago, and then I realized, oh, you know what?
1:39:45This feature I was gonna delay until sometime later.
1:39:48I actually really wanna have it in 1.0.
1:39:50So I bumped it up and I did that in a few days.
1:39:53And so I basically only have,
1:39:56I have probably two more betas to ship.
1:39:59I have the next beta, which is gonna be
1:40:01like the feature complete one.
1:40:03And then after that is gonna be like the release candidate
1:40:07in old Windows parlance.
1:40:09Does anyone else still use like RC1, RC2,
1:40:11or is that only an old Windows thing?
1:40:13- It's still a Windows thing as far as I knew,
1:40:15although I don't really keep up with that
1:40:16very much anymore.
1:40:17- Anyway, yeah, so that's where I am.
1:40:19I'm like the build before release candidate,
1:40:23probably going out in the next couple days,
1:40:26release candidate probably going out later this week,
1:40:28and then I'll probably submit next weekend
1:40:33or early the week after that, I don't know.
1:40:36I'm very, very close.
1:40:38- Did you ever find that bug that someone reported
1:40:40about the UI showing up gray, like tint color all gone?
1:40:43- No, oh God.
1:40:44- I've been experiencing it lately.
1:40:47- Yeah, I should spend more time trying to find workarounds.
1:40:51Yeah, there's a bug, you've probably,
1:40:53if you've ever used an iOS 7 device,
1:40:55you've probably run into this at least once,
1:40:58maybe in mail or some other like standard app
1:41:00that uses a tint color,
1:41:01where the tint color gets stuck as gray.
1:41:05'cause what happens is when there's an alert box popped up
1:41:09or something like an alert box,
1:41:10any kind of system mode will view like that.
1:41:12UIKit usefully changes the tint color
1:41:16on the background window to gray,
1:41:19so that way all the controls that have this bright color
1:41:22for their tint color fade into gray in the background
1:41:26so they aren't loud and obnoxious
1:41:29while you're looking at this alert box
1:41:30that's in front of them.
1:41:31And then when you cancel that box out,
1:41:35then it goes and puts the color back.
1:41:38The problem is it doesn't always put the color back.
1:41:41And under certain conditions that I haven't quite
1:41:43figured out, your tint color will get stuck at gray
1:41:47and not all controls will update or it's a mess.
1:41:52And it happens occasionally in overcast
1:41:55and it drives me nuts.
1:41:56- And it doesn't recover.
1:41:58Like if it loses, if it misses that chance to do it,
1:42:00like you can just hang out and use a gray UI for a while.
1:42:02Like it's not gonna, unless you like,
1:42:03mine is always, you know, waking it up from sleep.
1:42:05So the only way to get it to get,
1:42:07have a second chance of doing that is put it to sleep again,
1:42:09go to another app, switch back to it,
1:42:10see if it's, you know, switch back to orange.
1:42:13- Yeah, this, it's driving me nuts.
1:42:15And I can't, I can't figure out what to do about it.
1:42:18I mean, 'cause I want that behavior.
1:42:20I want the behavior of--
1:42:21- Did you file a radar?
1:42:23- No, actually, I don't think so.
1:42:25I don't think so.
1:42:26- The ghost of jury will haunt you now.
1:42:28- It definitely seems like it's a UI kit,
1:42:30bug and I could try to work around it,
1:42:33but I'm not willing to do too much of a crazy hack
1:42:37to do that.
1:42:38That's one thing I decided early on with Overcast
1:42:41and so far I've stuck to it for the most part.
1:42:44With Instapaper, I would try to use crazy, crazy hacks
1:42:49to work around limitations or bugs in UI kit,
1:42:52usually limitations, usually not actual bugs,
1:42:54but it was so hard to maintain
1:42:56and it wasn't really worth it.
1:42:57Like I would work around it to achieve
1:43:01a certain transition or animation or feature
1:43:03that you weren't supposed to be able to do in the API
1:43:06or to try to mimic built-in Apple behavior
1:43:10in a way that wasn't publicly exposed.
1:43:12And it just was never worth it.
1:43:13Even some of the big stuff like pagination.
1:43:16Oh my God, pagination was such a pile of hacks
1:43:19because until iOS 7, there was no API
1:43:22to paginate a web view, so you had to do it manually.
1:43:24And I did it a few different ways.
1:43:26They all were horrible hacks.
1:43:27they all worked, but they were all horrible hacks.
1:43:29It really, it dramatically complicated the code
1:43:32and it took tons and tons of time
1:43:34to write and maintain all that.
1:43:36And at the end of the day, it wasn't that big of a deal.
1:43:39It wasn't that major of a feature.
1:43:40I thought it would be and it really wasn't.
1:43:42So with Overcast, early on, I decided,
1:43:45I'm just going to avoid most of those things.
1:43:47I'm using a lot of stock UI kit
1:43:49with appearance customization,
1:43:50but still, I'm not rewriting my own navigation controller.
1:43:54I'm using the built-in stuff.
1:43:55I'm hardly even doing custom transitions anywhere.
1:43:58In fact, I don't know if I have any
1:43:59custom transitions anywhere.
1:44:01It's mostly UIKit stuff because, first of all, it's 1.0,
1:44:05and I didn't wanna get too bogged down on all that stuff
1:44:07because it turns out, turns out,
1:44:09podcast apps have a lot of screens and stuff.
1:44:11It's a lot more than I expected.
1:44:15This is a much larger app than Instapaper.
1:44:18That's one of the reasons it's taken me so long,
1:44:20is that there is just so many screens
1:44:22and so much functionality that needs to be built in
1:44:25considered to get what I think most people would consider like the bare
1:44:29minimum necessary function set of a modern podcast app and so it's just tons
1:44:35and tons of code and interfaces and screens and designs and strings and
1:44:40localization potential and and so I didn't want to also have this big pile
1:44:45of hacks that would that would make all that more complicated and that would
1:44:50take time that I needed to to do all this stuff in a reasonable amount of time.
1:44:54People are asking if I ruined the surprise of your color scheme. You showed the gigantic
1:44:58icon at XOXO like a year ago.
1:45:01Yeah, and it's also on the Twitter bio and on the webpage. The webpage even has the font.
1:45:07I mean, yeah, it's pretty obvious by looking at the preview page I have for it on the website
1:45:16roughly what the app looks like. No big deal. Anyway, so that's where I am. I'm very close.
1:45:22I recognize, by the way, that this is completely ridiculous to rush to ship an app now as opposed
1:45:28to waiting for iOS 8.
1:45:30And I've thought about this a lot because I'm going to require iOS 8 as soon as I possibly
1:45:35can.
1:45:36Pretty much as soon as it's out, I'm going to require it.
1:45:39The reality is that's still a few months away probably.
1:45:41We don't know exactly.
1:45:43It might be September, it might be October.
1:45:45That's still a few months out and I really want to ship before then.
1:45:50I'm already embarrassed that it took this long.
1:45:53I would have liked to ship months ago,
1:45:54but oh well, I didn't.
1:45:56Now I'm now at a shippable point.
1:45:59So I don't see much of a reason to wait.
1:46:01You know, I am gonna require eight immediately,
1:46:03which means that there's gonna be the awkward phase of
1:46:06I'm going to support the iPhone 4
1:46:09and the old iPod touches for like two months.
1:46:12And then I'm gonna cut off support for these people.
1:46:14And that sucks, but I don't think there's a better way
1:46:17to do that while also taking full advantage
1:46:20of what iOS 8 offers.
1:46:21So does that make sense?
1:46:23- You've got that, you just, you explained in the beta thing
1:46:28how you're handling that to not disappoint users, correct?
1:46:31I don't want to reveal too much, but.
1:46:32- Yeah, I mean, and I'm gonna anger people anyway.
1:46:35I mean, like there's no question,
1:46:36like people are going to be annoyed
1:46:38that I have this app that supports these devices
1:46:42and then like two months later,
1:46:44I stop supporting those devices.
1:46:45You know, that is going to annoy people,
1:46:47but I'd rather get it out there sooner
1:46:49And, 'cause right now, I haven't even started
1:46:51iOS 8 stuff yet on it.
1:46:52Like, I haven't written a single line
1:46:55of iOS 8 code for it.
1:46:57I'm not even using the iOS 8 SDK to build it.
1:46:59I have the 8 SDK installed on my laptop secondarily,
1:47:03but on my desktop that I'm doing my main development on,
1:47:06I don't even have it installed yet.
1:47:07I haven't written any Swift yet.
1:47:09I haven't written, I haven't done anything
1:47:11with 8's new APIs, I haven't done anything
1:47:13with rotation or the size class stuff,
1:47:15or you know, the stuff that replace rotation.
1:47:18I'm delaying all of that.
1:47:19until I ship the iOS 7 version.
1:47:21And then after the 7 version ships
1:47:23and is reasonably stable,
1:47:25then I will start doing the 8 version.
1:47:28And try to prepare it in time for 8 launch,
1:47:31which I know it's cutting it close
1:47:32and I might not make it quite on time.
1:47:34- Well, you'll be spending all your time doing the,
1:47:37making all the UI handle different size classes
1:47:39for the bigger iPhones.
1:47:40- Yeah, exactly, oh yeah, I mean that's totally, yeah.
1:47:42'Cause that's, I don't intend to actually have
1:47:44an extension or anything on day one of 8.
1:47:47Mostly 'cause I'm not really sure what an extension
1:47:49would be immediately.
1:47:51There's obviously I could do an add to Overcast
1:47:54kind of thing, but I wanna do that right.
1:47:57And so I'm probably not gonna have that on day one.
1:48:00I'm going to ship it soon is the very short version
1:48:02of this very long story that goes nowhere.
1:48:05- Now whenever you submit,
1:48:08and you can choose not to answer this question,
1:48:10but whenever you submit, are you going to hold release
1:48:14for some big marketing push or just like a day or two
1:48:17to get your stuff squared away and then let it rip?
1:48:20- I'm going to set it on hold release,
1:48:22but once it is releasable,
1:48:24I don't think I would really hold it back
1:48:27for much of anything unless,
1:48:28like if Apple is gonna feature it,
1:48:31they might ask me to hold it back till Thursday or whatever,
1:48:33but I don't know if that's going to happen or not.
1:48:36I would guess off the top of my head, probably not,
1:48:39obviously, 'cause most apps don't get featured on launch.
1:48:41Chances are I'm gonna have to release it
1:48:43when I'm ready to.
1:48:45So I wanna do something a little more on the website.
1:48:48I wanna have a marketing page and the site,
1:48:50so I'm gonna have to, while it's submitted,
1:48:52I'm gonna have to write that.
1:48:53And if that's not done, I might wait until it's done,
1:48:56but I'm not gonna wait more than a few days.
1:48:57- Do you need help thinking of three things
1:48:59to put in the standard bootstrap-powered layout
1:49:01of a product marketing page?
1:49:03'Cause you know, you gotta have the icon,
1:49:05and then you gotta have three boxes,
1:49:06and it's like powerful, simple, orange.
1:49:09That's my suggestion.
1:49:10(laughing)
1:49:13- That's fantastic.
1:49:13- Yeah, no, I've actually, I've considered marketing
1:49:16from the very beginning, and I have in my giant
1:49:19task paper document that's kind of my to-do list
1:49:23and forecast for this app, I've been considering
1:49:26marketing the whole time, and so I've even considered
1:49:29what features go into 1.0 or don't go into 1.0
1:49:33based on how they support my overall strong
1:49:36marketing points, and I know just talking about marketing
1:49:40for developers is weird and sometimes even taboo,
1:49:43but it shouldn't be because it's kind of stupid
1:49:46not to consider these things.
1:49:47And if you can consider these things,
1:49:48and if you can play to your strengths, why not do it?
1:49:51And so I have, I've been considering that very strongly
1:49:54from the very beginning, and I'm pretty sure
1:49:55what I'm gonna put in these.
1:49:56It's just a matter of doing it.
1:49:57And yes, this is a bootstrap site.
1:49:59I'm not sure if I'm gonna do that same front page
1:50:02everyone else does, but it's probably gonna have boxes
1:50:06with features in them.
1:50:07- And how's the review?
1:50:09- Oh my god.
1:50:11I mean, like, I think now finally I have the outline, like I have it all in my head of
1:50:16what needs to be written, it's just, I need to write.
1:50:19You know.
1:50:20Actually, not true.
1:50:21I, this, the Swift section I'm still trying to decide how I'm going to make it not be
1:50:27ridiculous.
1:50:28I'm trying to focus on a few things.
1:50:29I have one of the things, sort of an idea of what I'm going to write there, and the
1:50:33second one I'm just putting off for now, but the rest of the stuff I more or less know
1:50:37what I'm going to write now.
1:50:38thinking about like, should I bother taking screenshots?
1:50:42Should I just wait?
1:50:43Of course I can't do a lot of the testing
1:50:44with the handoff stuff or if they're gonna support
1:50:46the dark UI like they said they were gonna,
1:50:49I just need to write, I need to plow forward bravely.
1:50:52I got through the introduction though, so that's good.
1:50:55- Hey, that's something.
1:50:56- It is.
1:50:58- Casey, how about that fast text update for iOS 7?
1:51:00- I was really hoping you weren't gonna ask me that.
1:51:03- I'm really going to beat you to shipping.
1:51:05- Yeah, you are.
1:51:05- He's putting all his time into the showbot,
1:51:08Mark on and distracted.
1:51:09Yep.