68: Siracusa Waited Impatiently For This


00:00:00   And you're gonna hear all the coughs and sniffles and everything else that normally we have

00:00:06   time to take out.

00:00:08   It has nothing to do with our studio, which is excellent, and I'm very enthusiastic about

00:00:11   this, but it has everything to do with the fact that we want to get this out immediately.

00:00:15   Meanwhile, I'm watching Jon and Tiff take pictures.

00:00:18   Put your camera down.

00:00:19   I'm trying to get every time I take a picture.

00:00:23   Okay, so this is our special WWDC episode.

00:00:28   We are recording it the day of the keynote, and it is right after the keynote, or I'm

00:00:33   sorry, right after the afternoon session.

00:00:35   We are at the Macworld Studios, so thank you very much to Jason Snell for letting us crash

00:00:40   his studio and use his equipment in order to get this podcast to you lickety-split and

00:00:44   not sound like garbage.

00:00:46   So thank you very much, Jason Snell.

00:00:49   Everyone tweet him a big thank you just so his inbox explodes.

00:00:51   At @jsnell.

00:00:52   Or you can listen to his podcast, The Incomparable, on 5x5.

00:00:55   Email Marco!

00:00:57   (laughing)

00:00:59   So some stuff happened today.

00:01:01   Today was a busy day.

00:01:03   And John, do you have any thoughts about today by chance?

00:01:08   - We should have talked about a plan of attack

00:01:09   for this podcast, 'cause there is way too much

00:01:12   that happened today for us to discuss

00:01:13   on one episode of the podcast.

00:01:14   No doubt we will be talking about these things

00:01:16   for many episodes to come, and it probably would have been

00:01:18   a good idea for us to have a plan of like,

00:01:20   okay, today we're just gonna talk about iOS 8,

00:01:22   or we're just gonna talk about Swift,

00:01:24   or we're just gonna talk about,

00:01:25   but we don't have a plan because we are disorganized.

00:01:27   - Are you suggesting that you did not do your homework?

00:01:29   - Oh, we didn't know it was gonna be enough until today,

00:01:31   so how could we, you know, but anyway,

00:01:32   I think that we, what do you wanna do?

00:01:34   Do you wanna focus on a particular area,

00:01:36   or do you just wanna do, give broad sweeping stuff?

00:01:37   'Cause if we wanna do everything,

00:01:39   we need to have a list of bullet points

00:01:40   and say, okay, we gotta talk about this, that, that, that,

00:01:41   and get through them all.

00:01:42   Otherwise, we're gonna dive into one of these topics

00:01:44   and spend the whole show on it, which I'm also fine with.

00:01:48   - Well, let's just start going down the list,

00:01:50   and if we end up going off on a tangent

00:01:52   that lasts 12 hours, then so be it.

00:01:54   So, what did we see today?

00:01:57   Well firstly, on the way in, we got celebrated

00:02:00   by the line people, which was weird.

00:02:04   I've never seen that before.

00:02:05   So as you're on your way in,

00:02:07   so you wrap around the block a couple times,

00:02:09   and then at something like 7, 7, 3,

00:02:11   well, something around 7, 30, they let you into Moscone,

00:02:16   and you end up going to the second level of Moscone.

00:02:19   And so you go up these escalators, and we hear cheering.

00:02:22   We hear cheering going on, and I'm thinking to myself,

00:02:24   what is happening?

00:02:26   And sure enough, they had, I guess they're Apple employees,

00:02:29   but they had all these Apple employees lined up,

00:02:31   saying like, "All right, yeah, be excited."

00:02:35   And it's like 7.30 in the morning,

00:02:36   we're all exhausted and jet-lagged,

00:02:38   and they're trying to pump us all up,

00:02:40   and I'd never seen that before, and it was odd.

00:02:42   - That's what they do with Apple Store openings, right?

00:02:44   They have the Apple Store,

00:02:45   they have employees come out and applaud for everybody.

00:02:47   I mean, at least at that point,

00:02:48   people know what they're excited about,

00:02:49   but on the way into the keynote,

00:02:51   we don't know what we're going to be excited about.

00:02:52   And there was plenty in the keynote worth applauding.

00:02:54   Had we known what we were going to see,

00:02:56   we would have been jazzed as well probably, but we didn't, so it was just a bunch of tired

00:02:59   people.

00:03:00   Yeah, it was different, to say the least.

00:03:01   Then they tried to get a dub-dub-DC chant going, which was extremely, I don't know,

00:03:05   it was odd.

00:03:06   But then we made it into the keynote room.

00:03:08   That worked out well.

00:03:09   And the keynote started fairly slow, I thought.

00:03:12   I didn't think it had that much speed to it.

00:03:14   And everyone seemed really confident and really relaxed.

00:03:19   And I didn't know what to make of it.

00:03:20   So what was the first, what was some of the first stuff they covered?

00:03:24   I didn't start taking notes until about halfway through,

00:03:25   so I don't know if you guys, all right.

00:03:28   This is an accidental podcast.

00:03:30   - I mean, one of the things I noticed first was,

00:03:31   you know, just like the mood of everyone.

00:03:32   Like, you know, Tim comes out,

00:03:34   and Tim is relaxed and laid back.

00:03:37   And this is a side of Tim we haven't seen a lot of,

00:03:40   if any, really, and he was kind of fiery.

00:03:43   And like, he was like taking jabs

00:03:45   at Google and Windows and stuff.

00:03:46   And it was the kind of thing, you know,

00:03:48   we've seen that from jobs in the past,

00:03:51   but Tim has always shown a more reserved approach

00:03:53   of those usually and he'll put in jabs here and there that are more subtle in the past

00:03:57   but I think this was the first time we saw him really like feel free to just dig in and

00:04:04   he seemed and I think what we saw play out is that the reason he was so confident and

00:04:11   laid back, which is the same reason that all the presenters were so confident and laid

00:04:15   back is because they knew they had a kick ass lineup that they were announcing and like

00:04:21   they were very proud and confident

00:04:23   in what they were about to show us,

00:04:24   and we didn't know yet.

00:04:26   So at the time, we just like, wow,

00:04:27   that's, they seem like they're really relaxed today.

00:04:31   And it flowed very well.

00:04:33   It was much more put together,

00:04:36   much more seamless than, I would say,

00:04:39   any Apple event in the last three years.

00:04:42   - I would say that he seemed less rehearsed.

00:04:44   Not that, I mean, we know they rehearsed like crazy, right?

00:04:46   But in Tim Cook's first several keynotes,

00:04:50   you could tell that he was well-rehearsed.

00:04:52   And he would come out there and say what he was going to say.

00:04:55   And it was like, oh, I can see that he is saying something

00:04:57   that he has pre-scripted.

00:04:58   Whereas, I mean, now it was the same exact thing this time,

00:05:00   but he sounded less rehearsed.

00:05:02   So again, because he was relaxed.

00:05:03   As for the rest of the keynote, there

00:05:06   was so much stuff in this keynote

00:05:08   that whole important technologies got

00:05:11   like a slide and five seconds.

00:05:13   And it was like, wait, what was that?

00:05:15   And then they're on to the next thing.

00:05:16   Because there just wasn't enough time.

00:05:18   And I mean, it's obvious they're trying

00:05:20   keep it to a two hour keynote.

00:05:21   They're trying not to go three hours, four hours,

00:05:23   whereas other companies, I mean Google's done that,

00:05:25   Microsoft's gone really long, Sony,

00:05:27   if you wanna go to the gaming space.

00:05:28   There have been press conferences

00:05:29   where when people have a lot to announce,

00:05:31   they say, well we've got a lot to announce

00:05:32   and everybody will love it, and they just go.

00:05:34   And Apple was like, we have a lot to announce,

00:05:36   but we're gonna hold it to two hours

00:05:37   'cause we've got a schedule to keep.

00:05:38   So there was so much in this keynote

00:05:41   that there were things that got one slide

00:05:44   that are more significant than things

00:05:45   that got like 10 minutes in previous years.

00:05:48   - Yeah, it was, you could tell, like, you know,

00:05:50   we were, what I love about this is that so much of it

00:05:53   was a surprise, you know, there were very few spoilers

00:05:56   of any value here, even like, you know,

00:05:58   one of the biggest spoilers, Healthbook,

00:06:00   was kind of wrong in, you know, how--

00:06:02   - And it was like an asterisk on the end of the presentation.

00:06:04   It was like, oh yeah, we got this health thing,

00:06:06   whatever. - Yeah.

00:06:07   - Well, I mean, it was like we said,

00:06:08   the possibility of like them introducing APIs

00:06:11   for integration with third-party things,

00:06:12   and then maybe something of their own in the future,

00:06:14   and so Apple was not going anywhere near anything wearable

00:06:16   or anything today, it's like we have a bunch of APIs,

00:06:19   and third-party applications can use it,

00:06:21   and I think that'll be great, guys, right?

00:06:22   Okay, moving on.

00:06:23   I mean, it was one, in the scope of this keynote,

00:06:25   it was a minor announcement.

00:06:27   - Yeah, it was really wild, and I gotta say,

00:06:29   to back up just a smidge, that I loved snarky Tim Cook.

00:06:33   Oh, I thought it was great.

00:06:34   I really, really did.

00:06:36   And I think that the corny jokes that Apple made,

00:06:40   like, during last WWDC, and I can't think of them

00:06:43   off the top of my head, maybe it was with Eddy Cue

00:06:46   and iWork and he did like the band poster, whatever it was.

00:06:50   And I just felt like that was so corny and contrived.

00:06:53   And this year, with the exception of the hair thing,

00:06:55   which I think we've taken a little too far,

00:06:57   I thought everything else was well done.

00:06:59   I thought it was the right amount of snark,

00:07:00   the right amount of humor,

00:07:02   which is not something I'm used to seeing from Apple.

00:07:05   I mean, Jobs had his own shticks here and there,

00:07:07   but generally speaking, they've been fairly by the book.

00:07:10   And I love this slightly more casual Apple.

00:07:13   the titles in the WWDC sessions where it was like,

00:07:17   "Well, wouldn't you like to know?"

00:07:19   And, "Well, we wish we could tell you."

00:07:20   I love this new Apple.

00:07:22   I don't know, Jon, as the old man of the three of us

00:07:24   in terms of Apple lineage,

00:07:26   what do you think about this more casual setup?

00:07:29   - The thing about the humor and the jokes is,

00:07:31   like, there's two parts to that.

00:07:31   One is how relaxed the people are making the things,

00:07:34   and we already said the people seem relaxed

00:07:35   'cause they were confident

00:07:36   'cause they had a lot of good stuff to show,

00:07:37   and because they're experienced.

00:07:38   When they brought out the newer people

00:07:39   who hadn't presented as many times,

00:07:41   they were shakier, kind of like Craig was in the beginning,

00:07:43   but now he's more experienced.

00:07:44   But the second thing is,

00:07:46   the jokes were just as silly and corny as they've always been

00:07:50   but when you're announcing things

00:07:52   that get the audience excited,

00:07:53   the audience is predisposed to forgive your mistakes

00:07:55   because they're so jazzed about what you just showed before.

00:07:57   And so that is the effect.

00:07:59   Basically, if you have great things to show,

00:08:01   if you have announcements that the audience is gonna love,

00:08:03   they will also be in the mood to laugh at your stupid jokes.

00:08:06   And if you're showing stuff that's boring

00:08:08   and you make a stupid joke, you're like,

00:08:09   not only are you not entertaining me

00:08:10   and releasing things that I want,

00:08:11   but you're making a stupid joke and wasting my time.

00:08:13   So it's all about audience atmosphere.

00:08:16   And we were, as the announcements rolled on,

00:08:20   we were all very receptive to anything.

00:08:22   - That's true.

00:08:23   And I think that the pace in general

00:08:25   seemed not that brisk in the beginning,

00:08:28   but by the end, my goodness, it was a fire hose

00:08:31   just getting leveled at all these developers

00:08:34   and in the best possible way.

00:08:35   But things got fast.

00:08:37   And this comes back to what you were saying earlier

00:08:38   about, oh yeah, well, we've got this health thing.

00:08:40   oh yeah, and we've got these new dev tools.

00:08:42   Oh yeah, and we've got this new language.

00:08:43   And it was unbelievable how quick it was.

00:08:46   There was a lot happening today.

00:08:47   - There was also just a level of refinement

00:08:49   that we haven't seen in a while.

00:08:51   And even with Jobs, this isn't really a Steve Jobs thing,

00:08:55   'cause even with Jobs, there were some weird

00:08:56   and sloppy moments in the events.

00:08:59   For the last couple years, Apple's events have seemed

00:09:02   stuffy, almost sterile, kind of uptight.

00:09:05   And I was even worried, 'cause when we saw Eddie Q

00:09:08   and Jimmy Iovine last week,

00:09:10   I think Eddy Cue did not come off that well either.

00:09:12   I think he came off a little uptight there.

00:09:13   And so I was kind of worried,

00:09:15   that's kind of the apple we've seen recently.

00:09:18   And like last year, like you said,

00:09:21   some of the jokes were kind of overplayed or stale.

00:09:24   They ran too many videos last year.

00:09:26   - Yeah, that's another good point.

00:09:27   - Yeah, and then they kept running the same video

00:09:30   for like three events in a row.

00:09:32   Like it was, this year they ironed out all those bugs

00:09:36   in their presentation and it was just a smooth presentation

00:09:40   from start to finish, there were no remote control cars,

00:09:43   it was just very, very well done.

00:09:46   And I mean, what they announced,

00:09:47   I don't even know where to begin.

00:09:49   It was just a lot.

00:09:53   - I think we can begin with OS X

00:09:54   because I think despite people thinking

00:09:56   that this is gonna be, and us also saying

00:09:57   this was gonna be a big OS X release,

00:09:59   and it is visually, I guess from the user perspective,

00:10:01   I think it was the smallest of the things

00:10:03   that they announced today.

00:10:04   'Cause they put up the big slide,

00:10:05   it's gonna be OS X, iOS 8,

00:10:06   and then dev, developer tools, right?

00:10:09   And all of those three things,

00:10:11   they led with the smallest one, like they always do,

00:10:12   you save the best for last.

00:10:13   So I think we could dispense with OS X pretty quickly

00:10:16   if you wanna cover that in the beginning.

00:10:18   - Oh, so your review is gonna be short as well then?

00:10:20   - It might be, I don't know.

00:10:21   I mean, the thing about it is,

00:10:22   I mentioned to you guys before,

00:10:24   a lot of the things they put in the iOS section

00:10:26   or in the dev developer tools section of the keynote

00:10:29   also apply to OS X.

00:10:30   It's just that we don't think of them that way

00:10:32   because anything that's shared between OS X and iOS

00:10:35   is gonna go into the iOS session

00:10:36   because that's what everyone cares about

00:10:37   because the Mac is a smaller platform.

00:10:39   But that stuff applies to OS X as well,

00:10:40   so I'm not entirely sure.

00:10:41   But I think we can start with OS X.

00:10:44   What we thought was gonna happen was a big visual refresh.

00:10:47   What we got was a big visual refresh.

00:10:49   - It wasn't that big a visual refresh though?

00:10:51   I mean, it's pretty big.

00:10:52   - I was actually surprised how radical it wasn't.

00:10:56   - Yeah, that's exactly my point.

00:10:57   - What did you expect that you didn't see?

00:10:59   - Well, I expected everything to be all white

00:11:01   and thin and wispy and it wasn't.

00:11:03   Like it was, it still looks like Mac OS X.

00:11:06   It's still, it's not a jarring change.

00:11:10   It is an evolutionary change and it's exactly, I think,

00:11:14   the kind of change that was warranted.

00:11:16   They didn't need to totally throw away everything.

00:11:18   Like remember, like I'm not supposed to talk about this

00:11:20   on Gruber's show, but remember like, you know,

00:11:22   Gruber was even saying like, you know,

00:11:23   what are they gonna do about shadows,

00:11:24   about layering windows?

00:11:25   And it turns out they didn't do anything different.

00:11:27   We still have window shadows because windows

00:11:29   still are windows, they still look like windows,

00:11:30   they're still layered.

00:11:31   You know, it wasn't as radical of a change

00:11:34   as I think a lot of people were assuming

00:11:36   or fearing that it would be.

00:11:37   And there are a few weird issues with it

00:11:41   that I'm not thrilled with.

00:11:43   I think the translucency difference

00:11:47   between the sidebar is translucent to the desktop

00:11:50   and the title bar is translucent to the view under it

00:11:53   within its own window.

00:11:54   And there's these weird layering things

00:11:56   that are conceptually a little odd,

00:11:57   but I think overall it looks great

00:12:00   and it looks like a nice modernization

00:12:03   of what they already had rather than throwing it all away

00:12:05   and making something totally, radically different.

00:12:08   - Here's the thing about that new look.

00:12:11   It's not the type of thing where you're gonna install

00:12:15   this new OS and all your apps are gonna look like the apps

00:12:17   that they showed in the keynote.

00:12:19   Because this stuff doesn't get enabled by default.

00:12:21   Like you have to opt into it.

00:12:22   And so Apple's apps are gonna look like that.

00:12:24   Apple's apps are gonna have title bars

00:12:27   with the window widgets right in line with them,

00:12:28   like they do already in some apps,

00:12:29   like the App Store app is like that, I think,

00:12:31   and a couple other ones.

00:12:33   and Apple's apps are going to have a translucent sidebar,

00:12:35   and Apple's apps are going to have translucent title bars.

00:12:38   It's not going to transform all your apps

00:12:40   into this crazy translucent thing.

00:12:41   So for the most part, what most people's Macs

00:12:45   are going to look like is they're

00:12:47   existing apps with different title bars, different fonts

00:12:49   in the menus, and a different doc,

00:12:51   but everything else looking more or less the same.

00:12:55   And I don't know if Apple will be

00:12:56   able to get everybody on board the "hey everybody,

00:12:59   make all your sidebars translucent,

00:13:01   make all your title bars translucent,

00:13:02   and tuck the content underneath it.

00:13:04   I don't know if they're gonna go in that direction.

00:13:06   So I'm trying to think about what real Macs

00:13:08   will look like running the F70,

00:13:10   not what we saw in the keynote.

00:13:13   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:13:14   The other thing that struck me about the visual refresh

00:13:17   was when I saw Windows 7 for the first time,

00:13:20   and this was when I'd already had a Mac at this point,

00:13:22   and I was already all in on OS X,

00:13:24   I felt like, what do they call the Windows 7 visual refresh?

00:13:28   I can't remember now.

00:13:29   It doesn't matter.

00:13:30   But anyway, but where everything got true--

00:13:31   - It's not Metro, right?

00:13:32   something else. No, it was pre-metro. But anyway, the point is, it was all very translucent

00:13:37   and similar ideas. And I actually thought, from the very first time I saw it, that the

00:13:40   Windows 7 stuff looked pretty good. I agree with Marco, especially with this odd amount

00:13:46   of translucence, where I'm translucent to one thing here, but I'm translucent to this

00:13:50   other thing there. It's Arrow, by the way. Feedback from the chat, sorry. It's what?

00:13:53   Oh, Arrow. Yes, thank you. So, Arrow I thought looked great from the beginning. And I don't

00:13:58   even know if Microsoft is backpedaled on that or not. But this new OS X setup, I look good,

00:14:04   but I have my reservations.

00:14:05   Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't think your screen is going to look like that. I

00:14:08   think it's going to look like what it looks like now, and then Safari might look different

00:14:12   and Mail will look different. Most of your apps will look the same.

00:14:14   That's a fair point.

00:14:15   I mean, the whole thing with the translucency is to what end? To what end? Why are these

00:14:22   things translucent? That is always the question. And it's Apple's job, I think, to justify

00:14:28   why someone would want to do this to their application.

00:14:30   Because there are downsides in terms of readability,

00:14:32   in terms of variability.

00:14:34   Is this something that people want?

00:14:35   Does it look really awesome on people?

00:14:37   Like Brush Metal, the justification was basically

00:14:39   people think it looks cool.

00:14:40   And so everybody made their apps Brush Metal.

00:14:42   Whether it was or not, that was, you know,

00:14:44   if you were to ask Apple, why should people do this?

00:14:46   Be like, well, people think it's cool.

00:14:47   And they did think it was cool,

00:14:48   and they used Brush Metal everywhere.

00:14:49   Well, I don't know if people think

00:14:51   this translucence is all that cool.

00:14:53   I mean, iOS 7 has it as well.

00:14:55   Granted, the APIs were not as open,

00:14:56   so everyone couldn't go hog wild with it.

00:14:57   But it will really depend on whether people think it's worth adopting these things.

00:15:02   Because if they don't, it's just OS X, but everything, you know, candy-colored and

00:15:07   iOS 7-ified.

00:15:08   Yeah, but didn't they say during the keynote that the idea was to give you some context

00:15:12   within your document, which I don't really buy for the record.

00:15:14   Yeah, but like, what does that mean?

00:15:15   What does the context mean?

00:15:16   Yeah, exactly.

00:15:17   Previously, I wasn't aware that my document continued off the top of this page, but now

00:15:19   that I can see the green image showing through my title bar, I'm aware that it goes off

00:15:23   the—like, how does that provide you any more context than simply clipping the image

00:15:26   at that point?

00:15:27   - And always showing a scroll bar

00:15:28   so you could see the scroll position.

00:15:30   I forget which word they were using,

00:15:32   I don't think it was context,

00:15:33   but they did have a talking point

00:15:34   of how translucency provides you.

00:15:36   One thing was you can pick your desktop background

00:15:39   and that will influence how your apps look

00:15:40   to let the personality of your desktop background

00:15:42   show through in your apps.

00:15:43   Is that something that people want?

00:15:44   Do they want the personality of their desktop background

00:15:46   showing through in their apps?

00:15:47   Do they just wanna use their apps

00:15:48   to read their mail and stuff

00:15:49   and they don't wanna see the desktop image behind it?

00:15:51   It looks like a big model mess.

00:15:52   But again, these are all opt-in things.

00:15:54   Your apps aren't just gonna all of a sudden

00:15:56   become translucent, Apple is obviously opting into them, and they will be a good test bed,

00:16:00   and it will be interesting to see if this is something people want. Whether developers

00:16:04   think it looks cool and they just ship it to people and then people complain, or developers

00:16:07   never even ship it and it just ends up being a different looking Mac OS.

00:16:11   So, anything else on the visual refresh? Because, I mean, I think that's pretty much all I had

00:16:16   to say about it.

00:16:17   I like the idea of them redoing the, trying to constrain the icons into the different

00:16:24   Arrangements of having circle icons and square icons and having all the little slanty

00:16:27   They showed them people taking pictures of the iMac screen up

00:16:30   But I'm sure there's more showing all the little slanted rectangle icons all looking identical identically slanted and everything. That's a reasonable unification

00:16:38   It's a nice middle ground between people thinking. Oh OS X is gonna use round recs for all its icons

00:16:42   It's not right. There are still distinct shapes and again

00:16:45   I think third parties might just ignore this and say well, that's good for you Apple

00:16:48   You can do whatever the hell you want with your icons, but we're still making our icons look like we want

00:16:52   So I think there will be a continued tension between what Apple is doing with Yosemite

00:16:58   and what third-party developers do with it.

00:17:00   And it might be a little weird, kind of like iOS 7 is, where some apps just don't come

00:17:03   all the way on the iOS 7 train.

00:17:05   You've got these apps that, you know, their icons haven't changed since iOS 6 and their

00:17:09   interfaces may be different but they don't look like iOS 7.

00:17:13   They still don't have the iPhone 5 screen size support?

00:17:17   Not that bad, but yeah.

00:17:19   All right, we are sponsored this week first by our friends at Igloo.

00:17:23   Igloo is the internet you'll actually like, and it's about to get even better.

00:17:27   Igloo's next release, Unicorn, is coming this summer.

00:17:31   With it comes social task management, a brand new feature fully integrated throughout the

00:17:35   Igloo platform, providing the perfect balance between project management and getting your

00:17:39   day-to-day work done.

00:17:40   You can manage projects with task lists, optimize for large groups of people, you can assign

00:17:45   tasks from any piece of content like requests and changes be made in a document and you

00:17:49   can create personal tasks that are assigned to you or another person and you can see all

00:17:53   your tasks in one unified view.

00:17:56   You can learn more about this at igloosoftware.com/atp or you can come see Unicorn in person.

00:18:05   Igloo is hosting an event in Toronto, which I think is in Canada, on June 12th with customer

00:18:10   presentations by Hulu and Nextel International.

00:18:13   So go to igloo.com, or sorry, igloosoftware.com/toronto to register for that event.

00:18:20   Otherwise once again, go to igloosoftware.com/atp to check out igloo, the internet you'll actually

00:18:26   like and all the cool stuff they're working on these days.

00:18:28   Thanks a lot to our friends at igloo for sponsoring our show once again.

00:18:32   Yeah, speaking of igloo and other like web type applications, you know all the web apps

00:18:35   that started to change their look to look like iOS 7 after iOS 7 came out?

00:18:40   "Hey, I'm just glad that websites aren't still trying

00:18:42   "to look like iOS old, because that looked terrible."

00:18:45   - Right, but a lot of people who have either

00:18:47   web components to their products or have web apps

00:18:49   took the hint from Windows 8 as well,

00:18:51   but also iOS 7, especially in the Mac world,

00:18:53   to make their websites look like that.

00:18:54   And with the change in look of OS X now,

00:18:57   that turns out to be a good move.

00:18:58   I mean, even Apple is doing it.

00:19:00   They showed what the App Store looks like,

00:19:01   and that's what they were showing, right?

00:19:02   The new App Store app on the Mac looks all different.

00:19:06   That look, that kind of flat, candy-colored look,

00:19:10   If you did that everywhere across your website

00:19:12   on your iOS device, and now the Mac has switched over to it,

00:19:14   that was a good planning because people like that look.

00:19:17   It's simple, it's clean,

00:19:18   and now it is across the entire Apple platform.

00:19:21   - Yeah, so this keynote was to some degree

00:19:25   wonderful and terrible for me.

00:19:27   And it was wonderful because they announced

00:19:30   that we're getting airdrop between devices,

00:19:32   between OSes, I guess I should say,

00:19:34   between Yosemite and between iOS 8, which is great.

00:19:38   But the downside was that we also learned later on that there's this handoff thing that

00:19:46   where if you're, say, working on an email or something like that, and then you want

00:19:51   to finish that email, you're working on it on your phone, you want to finish it on your

00:19:55   computer, and then all of a sudden you can just pitch this email through the ether, through

00:20:01   the air, onto the computer.

00:20:03   And that sounds awesome, and I'm really enthusiastic about it.

00:20:06   I think, and they never confirmed or denied, that that's probably using Bluetooth Low Energy,

00:20:12   and none of my Macs have Bluetooth Low Energy.

00:20:14   It could be using AirDrop, because if AirDrop works between them, and it's supposed to be—the

00:20:18   whole idea is it's proximity-based, so it's not—it's not like they mention, like, "Oh,

00:20:22   you won't have things from your home showing up on your work computer," or vice versa.

00:20:25   So it could be Bluetooth Low Energy.

00:20:26   It could also be AirDrop, which uses that, like, ad hoc Wi-Fi networking thing, I think.

00:20:32   But all of it requires developer support.

00:20:34   Like, this is not magic.

00:20:36   So Apple's Mail, if you use Apple Mail on your Mac and you use Apple Mail on your iOS

00:20:40   device, then yeah, you can do that.

00:20:42   But what if you use something else on either one of those places?

00:20:45   Or what if the things you use, the developer hasn't added support for this?

00:20:48   It still seems like a thing that you have to do, and it could kind of be fidgety enough

00:20:51   that, like, it demos really well, but I don't know.

00:20:55   Like, I understand the frustration they're getting at, because I know when I'm doing

00:20:58   something on one device and I want to just transition to it over there, it would be nice

00:21:01   everything picked up, but this requires so many parties to cooperate and everything to

00:21:06   work for that handoff to work.

00:21:09   Getting the handoff to work could end up feeling like, from the user's perspective, more trouble

00:21:13   than it's worth.

00:21:14   Like, maybe it's just better to just save it as a draft and then go over and pull up

00:21:18   the draft over there.

00:21:19   Like, the old things that we used to be.

00:21:20   It demos well, and I think it's a good idea for this product, but I'm skeptical about

00:21:24   how seamless it will really be in real life.

00:21:26   So I think we'll have to see.

00:21:28   I think it's gonna be one of those things

00:21:30   like notification syncing between devices

00:21:33   and how we were talking last week

00:21:34   how there seems to be this grace period

00:21:36   in current infrastructure that we have now

00:21:38   where if you get an iMessage and you're at your computer,

00:21:41   if the window's focused,

00:21:42   then your phone won't buzz in your pocket,

00:21:43   but if you don't attend to it within a few seconds,

00:21:45   your phone will buzz.

00:21:46   And it's that kind of thing,

00:21:47   and they have worked on that over time,

00:21:49   and it has gotten better over time.

00:21:51   It's still not perfect, but it's gotten better.

00:21:53   This is probably gonna be the same kind of thing

00:21:54   where it's gonna start out probably a little wonky

00:21:58   and then get better over time.

00:21:59   'Cause it's probably built on the Netexium system.

00:22:02   - Now, I'm hopeful that it is the peer-to-peer WiFi thing.

00:22:06   I'm skeptical, but I'm hopeful.

00:22:08   And we'll see what happens.

00:22:09   But what else did we learn OS 10-wise?

00:22:13   - Well, I mean, one thing that's very interesting, I think,

00:22:16   and I don't know if we're gonna talk about this yet,

00:22:17   is the iCloud Dropbox, basically.

00:22:20   - Yeah, I mean, we talked about whether they would backpedal.

00:22:23   Would they just decide to show the file system?

00:22:25   Or would they try to figure out something else?

00:22:27   And this is kind of like an interesting compromise.

00:22:30   What it seems to me is that they wanted to have their cake

00:22:32   and eat it too, which is they wanted

00:22:33   to have the existing iCloud experience, which is just

00:22:36   like, there's no file system.

00:22:37   You don't have to worry about that.

00:22:38   Every app owns its own files.

00:22:40   Everything is an iCloud.

00:22:41   Everything is ubiquitous and available everywhere.

00:22:45   They wanted to keep that because I think that's good.

00:22:47   But they also wanted to add the ability for people

00:22:49   who knew what they were doing to have something

00:22:52   that was more like Dropbox.

00:22:54   And they didn't want to destroy one with the other.

00:22:56   make it so like if you're using the system the way you've been using it for the past

00:23:00   several years, it will look the same to you.

00:23:02   But if you know what to do, then suddenly you get the equivalent of an open, say, a

00:23:05   dialog box that's showing you, like, you know, the iCloud sidebar and it suddenly shows you

00:23:09   documents.

00:23:10   And what I think will happen is once you put iCloud in the sidebar of the Finder, people

00:23:13   are going to click on it.

00:23:14   People are going to learn they can make new folders there, and people are going to use

00:23:16   it.

00:23:17   And they'll end up using it like Dropbox.

00:23:19   And I think Dropbox has proven that if you constrain—it doesn't make any sense—but

00:23:25   If you constrain the world of the file system to a single place that they can hang their

00:23:28   hat on, like, "It's in my Dropbox," or "It's on my desktop," people are fine with that.

00:23:33   It doesn't matter that the number of levels of hierarchy they create under that are the

00:23:36   same as they could make anyplace else.

00:23:38   It just gives them a starting point and it makes them feel comfortable.

00:23:40   So now, with iCloud in the sidebar, for people who... imagine someone who gets a computer

00:23:46   like, "Oh, you should install Dropbox," and you know they can't install Dropbox.

00:23:49   You know that phrase, "You should install Dropbox," is like Greek to them.

00:23:52   Like, "Well, I don't know what you mean.

00:23:53   I don't know how to install software.

00:23:54   I don't know, is there a website?

00:23:55   Do I do something?

00:23:56   Do I download a disk image?

00:23:57   Do I get it?

00:23:58   Like, nobody knows.

00:23:59   And it's just like, look, go to your finder, in the sidebar there's a thing called iCloud.

00:24:02   Anything you put there when you're, you know, you can put stuff there and you'll see it

00:24:06   everywhere.

00:24:07   And that is like Dropbox.

00:24:08   It's a folder that syncs.

00:24:09   And now iCloud, it's a cloud that syncs, we hope.

00:24:11   I mean, all this, well, to see how reliable it is.

00:24:15   But it's a reasonable compromise.

00:24:17   I like that it acknowledges the fact that Apple has failed to come up with something

00:24:21   so much better that eliminates all the evil of the file system.

00:24:24   and I think they've taken less of Dropbox is like,

00:24:26   the file system is big and confusing,

00:24:28   but if you constrain it to this one place,

00:24:31   whether it makes sense or not,

00:24:32   people suddenly are able, a larger group of people

00:24:34   are suddenly able to deal with it.

00:24:36   Not everybody, but a larger group.

00:24:38   - Yeah, and I think it's, there's also,

00:24:40   this has a huge value in PR for Apple,

00:24:44   'cause now, like, you know, we've been talking before,

00:24:46   like iCloud is always, is this umbrella term

00:24:49   that refers to lots of different things,

00:24:51   most of which are behind the scenes.

00:24:53   In fact, that Eddy Cue talked about this

00:24:55   in the Jamiyavine thing last week.

00:24:56   This is now a very public-facing version of iCloud

00:25:01   and it works the way people expect modern, quote,

00:25:04   cloud things to work.

00:25:05   It's a cloud sync service for this folder full of files.

00:25:08   That's exactly what people want from a cloud service today,

00:25:12   for the most part.

00:25:13   There's things you build on top of that,

00:25:15   but this is what people want.

00:25:17   And this is gonna be this big thing

00:25:19   that everyone's face uses a Mac,

00:25:20   saying, look, it's iCloud, it works, we get it,

00:25:23   We're in the cloud, we are doing web services,

00:25:25   and they mostly work most of the time.

00:25:27   (laughing)

00:25:27   - And it comes with your Mac, it uses the iCloud account

00:25:30   that they make you set up when you install the OS

00:25:32   or when you set up the device.

00:25:33   Like you don't have to go to a third party,

00:25:34   all the advantages of being part of the platform.

00:25:36   Like all those barriers that prevented people

00:25:39   from getting Dropbox installed.

00:25:40   And in fact, I think there are new APIs in OS X and in iOS,

00:25:45   and I guess we'll probably talk about the whole extensions,

00:25:47   is that what they call it, extensions?

00:25:49   - I believe that's right.

00:25:50   - That was in the iOS section,

00:25:51   But extensions apply to OS X as well.

00:25:53   And so there are extensions in OS X

00:25:55   that will let, for example, Dropbox make

00:25:57   their application better.

00:25:59   So Apple is not just saying, oh, iCloud is built in

00:26:01   and we'll be able to do Dropbox-y like things.

00:26:03   But in fact, we're helping Dropbox out here too,

00:26:05   or helping ourselves out as well.

00:26:08   For example, in not having Dropbox in memory

00:26:10   hacked the Finder to put those little badges on all your icons

00:26:13   to show the green.

00:26:14   And they've got an official API for that

00:26:16   through extensions, which is their safe mechanism

00:26:19   for extending functionality.

00:26:20   think the the notification widget things are similar. Aren't those under the

00:26:23   umbrella of extensions? I believe so. I don't know, the iCloud Drive

00:26:28   thing struck me as so interesting for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it was the

00:26:33   tangible manifestation of Dropbox as a feature not a product and I thought that

00:26:38   was kind of interesting. And then secondly, this was the I believe the

00:26:43   first thing we saw of a series of different features and enhancements and

00:26:49   products and whatnot that are all heavily relying on iCloud. And maybe I'm

00:26:55   amongst a group of people that are giving iCloud a bad rep for no really

00:26:59   good reason anymore. No, they're good reasons. Well, okay, so either way. But they're like, if they

00:27:04   double down on secrecy, which it appears they have, they've like quadrupled down

00:27:08   on iCloud being the bus for their entire ecosystem. And in

00:27:15   In principle, that's wonderful, but that's a lot of pressure to put on a system that

00:27:19   I'm not so sure can handle.

00:27:20   Yeah, they were saying a lot of the right things, like for example, I forget, maybe

00:27:24   this was in the State of the Union, we're not supposed to talk about it or whatever,

00:27:27   but one of the services they were talking about, they mentioned push notifications in

00:27:32   connection with it.

00:27:34   And as we've said on past shows, like, push notifications is one of the things that's

00:27:38   under the iCloud umbrella that seems to work pretty well.

00:27:41   And we're all hoping, more like that, less like iConcord data.

00:27:45   And this presentation was--

00:27:47   I mean, maybe it's just an optimistic thing.

00:27:48   But when they showed these things,

00:27:50   I'm like, I'm optimistic that these new things will

00:27:53   be more like push notifications and less like the things

00:27:56   that haven't come.

00:27:57   Although iMessages, I mean, they added tons of stuff

00:27:59   to iMessage as well.

00:28:00   And that still continues to be a little bit weird and creepy.

00:28:03   So yeah, you're right.

00:28:04   They really put a lot of eggs in this iCloud basket.

00:28:06   And basically what Apple is doing is, I'm assuming,

00:28:10   forcing themselves to get better at this crap.

00:28:12   Like, buy-- - Yeah, fair point.

00:28:13   - 'Cause it will be disastrous if they continue to fumble

00:28:15   and keep putting more and more important things

00:28:17   into the iCloud basket.

00:28:19   - I'm actually pretty confident in what they're doing

00:28:21   because it seems like, you know, Casey, you said like,

00:28:23   you know, they're building a lot of this stuff

00:28:25   on what appears to be the push notification/iMessage

00:28:29   part of iCloud, and that seems to be the part

00:28:32   that is operating at probably the biggest scale,

00:28:35   and is probably the most reliable.

00:28:37   I know people have had iMessage problems here and there,

00:28:39   but we don't know how much that is related to

00:28:41   like the client side software.

00:28:44   It seems like the server side end of that,

00:28:46   you know the push notification, the whole push system

00:28:48   has been really rock solid for the vast majority

00:28:52   of its existence and certainly recently.

00:28:54   So I'm actually pretty confident that the iCloud part

00:28:58   of this is probably not going to be a problem.

00:29:01   Other parts of it, you know,

00:29:02   like the client side code might be.

00:29:04   - Right.

00:29:05   - But it seems like the iCloud services end

00:29:07   of what they're doing, you know,

00:29:08   And people, iCloud core data sync was a disaster,

00:29:11   but that was also probably mostly a client side

00:29:14   and design issue, design of that capability.

00:29:17   - I mean, or even like documents in the cloud,

00:29:19   or a lot of those things kind of work,

00:29:22   but had weird things about them,

00:29:24   or they started off as synchronous,

00:29:25   then they made them asynchronous,

00:29:26   and there's not a lot of visibility,

00:29:28   and when it doesn't work, even today,

00:29:29   if you launch Apple's Notes app,

00:29:31   and you know there are notes that you put in

00:29:33   on your iOS device, the notes have to sit there for a while,

00:29:36   And then eventually your notes show up, you hope.

00:29:38   But if they don't, you have no recourse.

00:29:40   There's no visibility.

00:29:41   And that's why moving to iCloud in the sidebar

00:29:44   and putting stuff there for documents,

00:29:46   at least that gives you some visibility into what's

00:29:48   going on.

00:29:48   But the other APIs, that's still a problem with their cloud

00:29:51   system.

00:29:52   Making it better from a developer's perspective

00:29:54   so developers can tell what the hell's going on.

00:29:55   But from a user perspective, man, this stuff better work

00:29:57   because you have nowhere to go if it doesn't.

00:29:59   You just stare at your app.

00:30:00   It's not even a busy indicator.

00:30:01   You're just like, is my stuff there?

00:30:04   Is it going to come?

00:30:06   - It's so true.

00:30:07   Now aren't they, but they did mention,

00:30:08   I think this was in the NDAA session, so I'll be very vague,

00:30:11   but I believe they mentioned that they're dogfooding

00:30:14   a lot of the stuff they're providing to developers.

00:30:16   So a lot of the stuff that they're giving developers,

00:30:19   they're using those APIs for their own

00:30:23   new features and applications.

00:30:24   - Yeah, that was heartening, although it's like,

00:30:27   it's helpful.

00:30:30   What that means is that if they did a bad job,

00:30:32   Apple will know about it.

00:30:33   That is the best thing about it,

00:30:34   that they'll at least don't know they did a bad job.

00:30:37   It doesn't necessarily mean they did a good job,

00:30:38   and it's kind of bad if they didn't,

00:30:39   because now they're screwing up their own services.

00:30:42   Their own headline features are screwed up

00:30:43   by their own bad APIs,

00:30:44   but presumably because they are dogfooding it,

00:30:46   they'll find out that it's bad,

00:30:47   and it won't just be this, like,

00:30:49   we won't have to wait for developer backlash.

00:30:51   Like Apple's own engineers would be like,

00:30:52   "Your server-side crap is broken,

00:30:54   "and I can't ship my app because it's broken."

00:30:56   - So is there anything else that's fun

00:30:58   and exciting to talk about?

00:30:59   - Oh, I know, before we get to OS X,

00:31:00   I just want one more thing.

00:31:01   - Oh no, we're not done with OS X yet.

00:31:03   - Oh, then the notification center sidebar

00:31:05   and the widgets there, and everyone's like,

00:31:07   "What does that mean for Dashboard?

00:31:08   "Where is Dashboard?"

00:31:09   And they didn't say anything about it.

00:31:12   I'm pretty sure Dashboard's still there in Yosemite.

00:31:14   Jason can nod his head because, yep, he nods his head.

00:31:16   - Well, they didn't say, the implication is that

00:31:20   you should probably not get too attached to Dashboard.

00:31:21   - Right, but anyway, this is a grace period, it seems like.

00:31:24   Apple said nothing about the future of Dashboard,

00:31:26   but anyone who knows anything about Apple

00:31:28   will know that the future of Dashboard is not bright.

00:31:30   And this is not a--

00:31:31   - I'm saying next year it's gone.

00:31:32   Yeah, and this is--

00:31:33   Jason just pulled up Dashboard in Yosemite.

00:31:35   I'm staring at it.

00:31:35   Anyway, it's still there.

00:31:36   But this is not news.

00:31:39   Dashboard has been kind of stagnant

00:31:40   and just sitting there doing nothing for many, many years.

00:31:44   It is a pretty old feature.

00:31:45   What is it, come in 10.4 or something like that?

00:31:47   Yeah, something like that.

00:31:47   It's been around for a long time.

00:31:48   I use it every day.

00:31:49   I still think it's great, but it's clear

00:31:51   that it's not just like this year

00:31:53   that Apple decided to kill it.

00:31:54   It died of natural causes, essentially.

00:31:56   So Dashboard is still there.

00:31:57   You can continue to use it in Yosemite.

00:32:00   I don't know how much longer it will be around.

00:32:02   I bet most people won't mourn it, even though I will,

00:32:04   because I think it's kind of cool.

00:32:05   And you can't, I mean, it's not a direct replacement.

00:32:07   Like, the notification center is a skinny little sidebar

00:32:09   where it's dashboard took up your whole screen.

00:32:11   But third-party opportunity, people.

00:32:14   - We are also sponsored this week, once again,

00:32:16   by our friends at Warby Parker.

00:32:18   Go to warbyparker.com/atp.

00:32:22   Warby Parker is a new concept in eyewear,

00:32:25   although it's only new to you

00:32:26   if you haven't listened to our show ever.

00:32:29   Warby Parker, it was a collaboration between four friends,

00:32:31   And here's the thing, they believe that eyewear should not cost a fortune.

00:32:36   It should be available and affordable to everyone.

00:32:39   Eyeglasses should not cost as much as an iPhone, that's ridiculous.

00:32:42   So they have prescription eyeglasses, very high quality, and they start at just $95 including

00:32:48   the prescription lenses.

00:32:49   They even have a titanium collection starting at just $145 including prescription lenses

00:32:55   that includes premium Japanese titanium, French non-rocking screws, and all sorts of other

00:32:59   niceties.

00:33:00   All of their glasses include anti-reflective and anti-glare coatings at no additional cost.

00:33:06   All of their glasses come with a hard case, which is awesome, and a cleaning cloth.

00:33:09   There's no additional items you need to purchase.

00:33:11   They're not trying to nickel and dime you.

00:33:13   It's great.

00:33:14   They make buying glasses online easy and risk-free.

00:33:17   Now you're probably afraid if you think about buying glasses online and you've never done

00:33:20   it before, you're probably afraid like, "How will I know how they will look on my face?"

00:33:23   They have a couple of ways to address this.

00:33:25   They have these awesome online tools.

00:33:27   You can use your webcam.

00:33:28   They will show, they can even use webcams to help you measure in case your eye doctor

00:33:31   won't give you the prescription details about your sizing, which some of them are weird

00:33:35   about.

00:33:36   They can even help you measure and it's very good, very accurate.

00:33:39   And so you can preview everything there and that's cool, but the best thing about Warby

00:33:42   Parker I think is that they have this home try-on program.

00:33:45   So you can go online, you can pick out up to five styles of glasses that you think might

00:33:50   look good on you or look good in the preview thing and they will send them to you and you

00:33:55   can try them on in your home risk-free.

00:33:57   They send them to you for free, they come to the prepaid return label, you send them

00:34:01   back for free.

00:34:02   You can try them on in your home and you can see how they look on you in person.

00:34:06   And then if you want to buy them, you can.

00:34:08   If you don't want to buy them, no problem.

00:34:10   And not only that, these people aren't nice enough already, for every pair of glasses

00:34:14   that they sell, they distribute a pair of glasses to someone in need through Recognized

00:34:19   Vision Charities.

00:34:20   And this is great because, you know, there are so many people who lack access to eyeglasses,

00:34:28   and you know, if you need glasses, you need them to live, you need them to work, if you're

00:34:33   a kid in school, you need them to learn, to see what's on the board, you know?

00:34:36   It's so important to people, and so Warby Parker donates a pair of glasses for every

00:34:41   pair they sell to people in need, so it's really fantastic.

00:34:44   Anyway, go to warbyparker.com/atp to learn more and to check out their awesome glasses.

00:34:52   And that's it.

00:34:54   So thanks a lot to Warby Parker for sponsoring the show once again.

00:34:57   Yeah, I've told the story a hundred times and I'll make it really quick, but when I

00:35:01   got a set of Warby Parker sunglasses, I put in like four pairs, maybe three pairs of sunglasses

00:35:07   that I, that were my stereotypical, like this is Casey's style, and then I put in a pair

00:35:12   or two that were just completely not the sort of sunglasses I would normally buy.

00:35:16   And sure enough, the ones that I ended up choosing were one of the ones that I didn't

00:35:20   expect to like.

00:35:21   So it actually ends up working out pretty well.

00:35:24   So really quickly, real-time follow-up with regard to Dashboard.

00:35:28   I believe the quote, as I was informed by Jason, was "We suggest you quickly adopt this

00:35:34   new technology with regard to the notification center," which is basically Apple code for

00:35:41   This is going to die prepare yourselves

00:35:43   Yeah

00:35:44   And dashboard was like a weird one-off thing with these HTML you kind of widgets or whatever whereas their

00:35:48   Replacement is part of a larger system that spans both iOS and OS X its extensions system

00:35:53   And I mean maybe that's just an umbrella term and there's no real relation technologically

00:35:57   We haven't learned the details yet

00:35:58   But they're using that term to say you can write extensions for just I mean people in that audience don't know but extensions

00:36:04   We already use that term once on the Mac

00:36:06   And it has bad connotations.

00:36:08   These are different.

00:36:09   And in iOS, it has a totally different thing,

00:36:11   which we'll get to when we talk about iOS 8.

00:36:13   But these new widget things in the sidebar

00:36:15   are part of that system.

00:36:16   It's a way to extend the system.

00:36:18   And I look forward to new ways to extend the system.

00:36:20   Because what this means is Apple has basically

00:36:22   come up with a way for both iOS and the Mac for people

00:36:25   to write system extensions to extend

00:36:28   the functionality of the system.

00:36:29   And that whole idea has been like, yeah, right,

00:36:31   we'll let you put an icon in the menu bar,

00:36:33   but you should really make it black and white.

00:36:35   Because we don't like-- you know.

00:36:36   And we won't let you move yours around.

00:36:37   We can only do that with ours.

00:36:38   Yours just go in a random order.

00:36:40   Tough luck.

00:36:40   Download bartender.

00:36:42   So I'm hoping this is the dawning,

00:36:45   certainly on iOS, it's the dawning of a new age

00:36:47   of extending this.

00:36:48   And I'm hoping on the Mac as well

00:36:49   that it's a sort of a renaissance of extending the Mac

00:36:54   in interesting and safe ways, and Apple approved ways,

00:36:56   versus the old way, which is just like

00:36:58   third parties figuring out how to get it done.

00:37:01   - Yeah, you know, the keynote as a whole,

00:37:02   and perhaps this relates more to iOS than the Mac,

00:37:05   But I felt like the keynote as a whole was an exercise in Apple doing all the things

00:37:09   that we never thought they'd do.

00:37:11   They gave us a whole bunch of photo, well sort of, gave us a whole bunch of photo storage.

00:37:16   They are allowing extensions, like you were saying, both on OS X, which is to be expected,

00:37:21   but also on iOS, including stuff as wild as replacing the system keyboard.

00:37:25   And there were a couple other things, now I'm drawing a blank, but there were, oh, well,

00:37:29   Swift.

00:37:30   There are all these things--

00:37:31   The entire extension thing, I mean, that's a huge thing right there.

00:37:33   So there are all these things that we all,

00:37:36   I think the three of us, everyone really,

00:37:38   have been saying, oh, they've gotta do this,

00:37:40   but they're never gonna do it because they're Apple,

00:37:41   they're stubborn, they're belligerent.

00:37:43   - But I don't think it's like a stubbornness

00:37:45   or like a philosophical objection.

00:37:46   I mean, a lot of us say like, oh,

00:37:47   previously there was a philosophical objection

00:37:49   and now that has changed.

00:37:50   But with a lot of these things,

00:37:51   it's like Apple always wanted to do them,

00:37:53   but it had to wait for certain things.

00:37:56   And on iOS, which I guess we'll transition to soon anyway,

00:37:59   but like it was, and iOS was like,

00:38:01   we don't have the CPU to do that.

00:38:03   We don't have the memory to do that.

00:38:04   We don't have the whatever, like background and all that stuff, because they just had

00:38:07   priorities and didn't fit into them.

00:38:09   And you know, for the sandbox and stuff, we don't have a safe way to do that.

00:38:13   And so all of it was like, when we have the CPU, when we have the memory, when we've come

00:38:18   up with a safe way for you to do it, we will let you do it.

00:38:20   But not before then.

00:38:21   Not like, oh, just add it.

00:38:22   I know how you can get this to work.

00:38:23   Look, if I go to the jailbreak stores, I can get something that does this right now, that

00:38:28   lets me put widgets on the lock screen.

00:38:29   It's like Apple wanted to come up with—everything had to be in place, and the final thing that

00:38:33   had to be in place is we have to have a safe way for you to do things, so you're not compromising

00:38:37   the stability of the system, so you're not allowing malware, so you're not doing all—you

00:38:40   know.

00:38:41   Or your own privacy as well, because they talked about how extensions—very briefly,

00:38:45   they spoke about how extensions are going to be sandboxed, and this might be in the

00:38:49   NDA session, so I should probably shut up—but suffice to say, they took not only security

00:38:53   of the system, but also your information security very seriously.

00:38:56   - Seriously. - Like all the things

00:38:57   they prioritize for, you know,

00:38:59   you are safe using iOS in these ways

00:39:01   and we're not going to let you do all the things

00:39:04   that you guys all wanna do until we have safe ways

00:39:07   to do it within the current envelope of hardware.

00:39:09   And then of course it's a lot of work for them

00:39:11   to make those APIs and this is the year.

00:39:13   This is the year where finally they have crossed

00:39:15   the threshold for all these things.

00:39:16   And there probably is a philosophical aspect of it as well

00:39:19   and if there's been so much shakeup

00:39:20   at the high levels of Apple management

00:39:21   that you can't discount that as one of the possible reasons.

00:39:24   But you have to just look at the way

00:39:27   they're giving us all this stuff,

00:39:28   and all of it is not the same way

00:39:30   that the jailbreak stores gave it to us.

00:39:31   It is an official supported API

00:39:33   that works with their existing sandboxing

00:39:35   and prioritization stuff on the Mac as well as on iOS.

00:39:39   - Yeah, so as a way to transition from Mac to iOS,

00:39:43   I wanted to briefly talk about,

00:39:45   I forget what they called it,

00:39:46   what their marketing term for it was,

00:39:47   but when you can send traditional SMS messages via the Mac,

00:39:52   but your iPhone does the sending.

00:39:56   You can actually even take voice calls--

00:39:57   - Oh, I believe it's called BluePhone Elite.

00:39:59   - Yeah, like eight years ago.

00:40:01   - It is very much, in the demo you might be mistaken

00:40:04   for thinking it's like, oh, I've been able to do that

00:40:05   in Google Voice for years, but it's paired with your phone.

00:40:08   No iPhone, none of this stuff works.

00:40:10   So, but yeah, but it's the same thing,

00:40:12   like the third party products that would basically say,

00:40:14   you've got a phone, but you wanna do stuff

00:40:15   that your phone could only do on your Mac screen.

00:40:18   And it just connects the dots, and it looks really nice,

00:40:20   and it's very seamless, and it's something that we're like,

00:40:22   yeah, that should work that way.

00:40:24   Why do I have to go and pick up the phone

00:40:26   or do, you know, having the caller ID show up

00:40:29   as a notification, having you be able to answer

00:40:31   that call from your Mac.

00:40:32   It's using your phone, but they're all in the same house,

00:40:35   even if it's in another room.

00:40:36   They're all connected on the same network.

00:40:37   Why shouldn't this work?

00:40:38   And Apple made it work.

00:40:40   - I hope it works well, and here again,

00:40:42   I hope it doesn't rely on Bluetooth energy.

00:40:44   I presume in the case of phone calls, it certainly wouldn't.

00:40:47   But nevertheless, I just think it's a really impressive,

00:40:51   It's a really impressive way to leverage the platform and really do what you would hope

00:40:55   and expect these things to do.

00:40:58   And I'm really excited about that.

00:41:00   So with that in mind, let's kind of shift gears to iOS.

00:41:03   There's so much to talk about.

00:41:04   I don't even know where to begin.

00:41:05   I remember when I said that iOS 8 was going to be like the Mavericks of iOS, with just,

00:41:09   you know, not a lot going on the outside and, you know, and some stuff on the inside.

00:41:13   But this is way bigger than a Mavericks release.

00:41:16   It's true that it didn't change the appearance that much.

00:41:18   very little visually has been changed, but all the number of things they're

00:41:21   changing at every other part of iOS is just huge. Yeah, it's really surprising.

00:41:25   There were a couple things that jumped out at me really quickly because they're

00:41:28   things that have been that have really bothered me over the years. They didn't

00:41:32   talk a lot about it in the keynote, but it seems like for iMessages and SMSes

00:41:37   and things like that, it seems like all media is ephemeral by default. If you

00:41:42   look closely at the keynote after like an image or after one of these audio

00:41:46   clips that's I believe new or after a video clip. After each of these it says

00:41:51   "Keep." And so the implication, I think they made a very quick mention of it, but

00:41:55   the implication was if you don't hit the "Keep" button in the next three days or

00:42:00   whatever the number may be, then that's just gonna go away. And I especially

00:42:03   have lamented numerous times about how I had gigs upon gigs of, well probably

00:42:08   animated GIFs, but one way or the other, gigs upon gigs of photos in my

00:42:14   messages app on my phone that I didn't really need and I didn't really want. I wanted them

00:42:19   to go away and I wanted them to do that easily and quickly. And this seems like it's probably

00:42:24   going to be the answer for that.

00:42:25   - Yeah, I mean, they did so, I mean, and this leads very closely to the photos discussion,

00:42:29   I think.

00:42:30   - Yep, absolutely.

00:42:31   - So to recap, basically, they announced this new, a few new things around photos that's

00:42:37   basically, like, you know, it's basically what people wanted, which is like, you know,

00:42:42   Photo stream as a standalone thing is kind of going away

00:42:46   as what it was before.

00:42:47   You still have the shared photo streams,

00:42:49   that's more of a feature.

00:42:50   But as a storage mechanism, photo stream has been

00:42:53   massively upgraded and now you just have,

00:42:55   all of your photos are just in iCloud.

00:42:57   And they use your iCloud storage,

00:43:00   which now has a couple of bigger, cheaper plans.

00:43:03   And it's not, we're not talking about

00:43:06   like revolutionary pricing.

00:43:07   What was it like, it was 200 gigs for four bucks a month?

00:43:11   - Yeah, whatever was, I think it was--

00:43:12   - It was only like 20 gigs for four bucks,

00:43:14   but there was cheap plans.

00:43:16   I mean, it's much cheaper than it was, right?

00:43:18   But like--

00:43:19   - But it's still not like, you know, Google level pricing.

00:43:21   - We don't have enough information yet

00:43:22   to see what this is really gonna be like,

00:43:24   but they said the right thing.

00:43:25   One of the things they said that I'm glad about

00:43:28   was they said we keep your full res pictures, which is--

00:43:30   - And videos.

00:43:31   - Yeah, and videos, which is opposed to--

00:43:33   - It's huge.

00:43:34   - What Marco was saying in the past shows

00:43:35   that like, if Apple needs to,

00:43:37   they should just do a lower res stuff

00:43:38   if they can't handle it,

00:43:39   when Apple's basically saying,

00:43:40   no actually we can handle it.

00:43:41   Not only can we handle your florist pictures,

00:43:43   we'll handle your video too.

00:43:44   Which seems crazy, but hey, go for it, right?

00:43:47   And then the pricing, it's like all that announcement

00:43:49   means nothing unless they adjust the pricing.

00:43:51   And they did adjust the pricing.

00:43:52   Have they adjusted it enough?

00:43:53   We'll see, but the previous pricing was crazy and punitive.

00:43:56   - Well I'm not in love with this pricing,

00:43:58   'cause what was it, five gigs for free,

00:44:01   which I just think is absurd.

00:44:03   That is ridiculous.

00:44:04   And then I think it was 20 gigs, is that what you're saying?

00:44:05   20 gigs was-- - 20 and 200.

00:44:08   - With 20 gigs it's like-- - They have plans up

00:44:09   to a terabyte but they didn't say how much those cost.

00:44:11   But it's, I mean, either way we're talking,

00:44:12   you know, it's not dirt cheap, but it's not that expensive.

00:44:16   You know, you're not paying like S3 rates for this.

00:44:18   - Yeah, we would hope, what we would hope is that,

00:44:21   say you're starting off as an Apple customer now

00:44:23   and you're just becoming an adult

00:44:25   and taking pictures or whatever, like,

00:44:26   we would hope that as you accumulate pictures

00:44:28   that Apple's pricing keeps pace and comes down.

00:44:31   But for people with existing large collections,

00:44:33   we're gonna have to look at that and do the math

00:44:35   and say, is this worthwhile for me to do this?

00:44:36   And they didn't mention anything about iPhoto

00:44:38   and I have no idea what the fate of iPhoto is,

00:44:40   and they showed this Photos app, which is like the iOS--

00:44:41   - Oh, come on, you know what the fate of iPhoto is.

00:44:44   - No, because the iOS Photos app doesn't do anything close.

00:44:46   There's iPhoto on iOS too, you know what I mean?

00:44:48   The Photos app is on iOS, and there's also iPhoto on iOS.

00:44:50   - I think iPhoto's going with Dashboard.

00:44:52   - I don't know. - Earlier, even.

00:44:54   - You can't use them for the same,

00:44:55   like, the whole idea that, you know,

00:44:57   can you take your photo collection

00:44:58   and just put it all up into the cloud

00:45:00   and deal with your photos that way?

00:45:01   I don't know what the answer to that is yet.

00:45:03   I don't think that the keynote gave us enough information

00:45:06   to know that.

00:45:06   - I think the implication's very clear.

00:45:09   iPhoto has always had this problem where

00:45:12   iPhoto was originally conceived in a world before

00:45:16   the iPhone and sync and it never had multi-device sync

00:45:19   and everything else.

00:45:20   And PhotoStream kind of half-assed it in there,

00:45:23   but it wasn't a very good solution

00:45:24   and certainly was very confusing.

00:45:26   And then the iPhone comes out and the iPad comes out

00:45:28   and they have this Photos app which is not iPhoto,

00:45:31   distinctly not iPhoto and it has its own way to do things

00:45:34   and store things and manage things.

00:45:35   And then they bring iPhoto to iOS, which is weird,

00:45:38   'cause they didn't replace photos with it.

00:45:40   They just brought this other photo management program,

00:45:41   which iPhoto and iOS, in my opinion, has never been good.

00:45:45   But maybe that's just me, but it certainly,

00:45:46   I don't think, has gotten widespread adoption.

00:45:48   - How could iPhoto be any good on iOS

00:45:50   if all your photos were in the photo app?

00:45:51   - Exactly.

00:45:52   - But it seems like what they've done

00:45:53   is brought that same dichotomy to the Mac.

00:45:55   And I don't understand why iPhoto

00:45:57   can't be the same app it is today,

00:45:59   but all the photo storage done the iCloud way.

00:46:01   - Oh, I think the new Photos app on the Mac

00:46:04   they showed off that's coming out, was it next spring?

00:46:07   - They said it's not tied, they said next year.

00:46:09   And so basically it means it's not tied to an OS release

00:46:12   and it's not, like it got pushed basically.

00:46:14   It didn't make it into Yosemite, right?

00:46:16   - I'm pretty sure the implication there though

00:46:18   is that the new Photos app for Mac that's coming next year

00:46:21   is the replacement for iPhoto.

00:46:23   - But what they showed was not,

00:46:25   what they showed was the iOS Photos app inside a window

00:46:27   with a dinky little toolbar.

00:46:28   It doesn't come close to like doing keywords and maps

00:46:30   and slideshows and all the stuff that--

00:46:32   - I bet it will.

00:46:33   Because Photos app on iOS already has much,

00:46:37   it doesn't have the management stuff,

00:46:38   but it has the maps and the albums.

00:46:40   It's getting a lot of that already.

00:46:42   I think the implication of where they're going

00:46:44   is very clear.

00:46:44   iPhoto's going away, this is the replacement,

00:46:47   we're just not done with it yet.

00:46:48   - I mean, the good thing is that from the photos

00:46:51   in the cloud, it's what we're talking about with messages.

00:46:53   What they're basically saying is,

00:46:54   some of these photos will be on your local device,

00:46:56   but you have access to more photos.

00:46:57   Like, I mean, Everpix did it.

00:46:58   You didn't have every single photo in your photo library

00:47:00   on your phone just because you uploaded to Everpix,

00:47:02   but you could scroll through all of them

00:47:03   and you can show any one of them,

00:47:04   and Apple is doing that now.

00:47:06   Apple's saying, yeah, we're gonna do that too.

00:47:08   All your photos can't be on your iOS device.

00:47:10   We'll still borrow your photos,

00:47:11   but you can get to all of them from your iOS device,

00:47:13   and you can get to them all from your Mac

00:47:15   sometime next year, and that's what we're looking for.

00:47:16   Unified photos protected in the cloud,

00:47:19   hopefully locally cached on your Mac

00:47:21   when the hard drive is big enough,

00:47:22   and some of them on your phone.

00:47:23   - Yeah, and if the Mac version is good enough

00:47:28   and able to and willing to also import SLR pictures,

00:47:32   pictures from stand-alone cameras,

00:47:34   then that will be amazing.

00:47:36   So I don't know, I think it's very, very clear

00:47:42   where they're going.

00:47:42   - I agree.

00:47:43   - I think, do you think Aputure continues to?

00:47:46   I think it probably does, but.

00:47:48   - Yeah, the pro stuff will lag, but like the whole idea,

00:47:50   it's what we want, we want to have local fast access

00:47:53   to our photos, but we want not to worry

00:47:55   that if our computers die, that we lose our photos.

00:47:58   So we want Apple to store them and back them in the cloud,

00:48:00   have it be synced everywhere, but have fast local copies.

00:48:03   And Aperture, as the pro app, may be like,

00:48:06   well, the pro people don't want their stuff in the cloud,

00:48:08   and it's too big anyway, so let us have it on local hard drives.

00:48:11   But this is going to come.

00:48:14   The whole idea of a transparent storage hierarchy,

00:48:16   where the canonical version is stored in a data center

00:48:19   somewhere really safely for you, hopefully not in HFS Plus,

00:48:23   and all of your local versions are just caches of it.

00:48:26   And everything is synchronized, and everything

00:48:28   is fast because of local caching,

00:48:30   and it's all seamless. That's where all storage is going. And for giant bins of data that

00:48:35   we have, and our giant bins are basically photos and video for regular people, that's

00:48:38   what we want. A storage hierarchy that ends in the cloud and that is transparent to us.

00:48:42   Yeah, and I feel like the photo setup that Apple's building, I'm still grumbly about

00:48:49   the price, but if that's the most of my complaints, then we're still doing a pretty good job.

00:48:53   And I'm really looking forward to it. I'm really looking forward to trying it. The only

00:48:56   thing I wonder though is how are we going to get the years upon years upon

00:49:00   years of photos that we've already taken into... That's what I was thinking like if

00:49:05   they came up with a new version of iPhoto or if the Photos app is the new

00:49:07   version of iPhoto, they would import them or say okay now we're just gonna

00:49:11   transparently make your iPhoto library in the cloud and it'll take forever but

00:49:14   you know there's a path to that. Did they talk about in the keynote the

00:49:18   cloud kit for like a slide and a half right? Yeah, like Gruber said they gave

00:49:22   CloudKit like 90 seconds I mean it was it was quick. Did they mention the what

00:49:26   you get with CloudKit in terms of storage limits,

00:49:28   or was that only in the state of the union?

00:49:29   - No, they did say--

00:49:30   - They went over it very quickly.

00:49:31   They said that it was free with limits,

00:49:33   and you get like, well, there was, we don't,

00:49:35   we can't, the limits were not stated,

00:49:37   so we can't tell you which limits are.

00:49:38   - I thought they were.

00:49:39   - No, they was in a document that, yeah.

00:49:40   - Anyway, they said free with limits,

00:49:42   and those limits are pretty darn high,

00:49:45   we could say, from the discussions we've seen.

00:49:48   So high that I don't understand how Apple is able to give,

00:49:51   to provide the CloudKit free with limits,

00:49:53   to the, it looks too good to be true.

00:49:55   - Oh, to correct, they did give the limits

00:49:58   in the presentation for what the global,

00:50:00   you store whatever petabytes of data.

00:50:01   They did say that, but they didn't tell you

00:50:02   what you get per user.

00:50:03   - Right, well, yeah, but that's interesting, though,

00:50:05   because, sorry, so if they gave the petabyte stat,

00:50:07   they're saying if you make an iOS app,

00:50:09   and say your iOS app is gonna store something big,

00:50:11   like audio files or video,

00:50:13   who knows what it's gonna store, whatever,

00:50:15   for the limits are like, with the free thing,

00:50:18   before you start paying any money is,

00:50:19   oh, you can store a petabyte of data

00:50:21   for all users of your app combined.

00:50:22   And we don't know if anything is per user or whatever,

00:50:24   but why is it that if you develop an app,

00:50:26   you get to store a pan about it for free?

00:50:28   Where if you wanna store your photos on iCloud,

00:50:30   you have to pay 99 cents to get like 20 gigs

00:50:32   and $3 to get 200 gigs.

00:50:34   - I couldn't agree more.

00:50:35   - The per user, what you get per user,

00:50:37   I don't think we're allowed to say,

00:50:39   but it's pretty small.

00:50:41   I think it's safe to say that.

00:50:43   You'd have to have a lot of users of your app

00:50:46   to hit these limits. - I guess that's their way.

00:50:47   But still, and the bottom line is,

00:50:49   say you make some viral app like Candy Crush

00:50:50   and you store a bunch of crappy content for everybody

00:50:54   and you run into the petabyte,

00:50:55   Apple is storing a petabyte of your data for free.

00:50:58   - Well, Amazon and Microsoft are storing a petabyte.

00:51:01   - It just seems like that the pricing

00:51:03   is still a little bit out of whack.

00:51:04   Like I would rather see Apple try to,

00:51:07   I don't know how to rationalize that.

00:51:09   I don't know how to rationalize their willingness

00:51:10   to do this stuff for free for an app developer

00:51:13   while charging individual users so much more to get,

00:51:17   I mean, I like the new pricing better than the old pricing,

00:51:19   but I still can't decide whether it's something

00:51:22   that fits with their own offering for app developers

00:51:27   or fits with what people are going to be willing to pay for.

00:51:29   Because that's the whole thing with this.

00:51:31   If someone gets a Mac and you're like, oh, you

00:51:33   should totally sign up for iCloud and do this monthly bill,

00:51:35   I'm like, that's going to be a hard sell on people.

00:51:38   And same thing with when you get your iOS device

00:51:40   and you run into the free storage limits.

00:51:42   And you've got to say, oh, well, you have to pay money now.

00:51:45   And it just seems a little bit like a bait and switch.

00:51:47   I would rather have it be more upfront

00:51:48   and have some assurance that this is something

00:51:50   people are gonna do that we're all gonna take advantage of

00:51:53   and that is the price that we're going to deal with

00:51:55   instead of having it creep up on you.

00:51:57   - Yeah, oh and real time follow up quickly,

00:51:59   the limits per user are made public in a public document,

00:52:02   which we'll put in the show notes if I remember too,

00:52:03   which I probably won't because I'm very hungry and tired.

00:52:05   It is 100 megs per user for assets, one meg for database.

00:52:10   And then there's some transfer limits, but yeah.

00:52:12   - So those limits are tiny, but yeah.

00:52:14   So Apple's--

00:52:16   - Like you couldn't build Instagram with that.

00:52:17   Like that would, you would probably hit that.

00:52:19   - You'd have to have like a wildly popular app

00:52:22   that just saves like high scores or some crap like that.

00:52:23   But still, again, Apple's willing, this is like,

00:52:25   go ahead, try to make an app that has 300 million users,

00:52:28   then we will end up storing a petabyte of data for you,

00:52:30   but somehow that's okay with them.

00:52:32   - Right, and I think, you know,

00:52:35   there are limits with CloudKit.

00:52:36   As far as we know, we haven't learned much about it yet,

00:52:39   and I haven't looked at the docs much

00:52:41   'cause I haven't had time yet,

00:52:42   but as far as we can tell,

00:52:44   this is not gonna let you build a website.

00:52:46   - You can't even run anything server-side,

00:52:48   as far as we know.

00:52:49   - Yeah, it seemed like it's all local,

00:52:51   it's all client-side code that tells the servers

00:52:53   roughly what to do, but it's like, you know,

00:52:56   fetches and stuff, it's like, it doesn't seem like

00:52:58   there's a way, for instance, like for me with Overcast

00:53:00   or like Underscore with Feed Wrangler,

00:53:02   like it doesn't seem like there's a way to like run

00:53:03   persistent crawlers on their servers

00:53:06   and have them notify you when new stuff comes in like that.

00:53:08   - Well, they do have the notification thing.

00:53:10   - But like a client has to pick up that data

00:53:13   or generate that data to tell other clients

00:53:15   that it's available, like your server can't do it.

00:53:18   - Right, exactly.

00:53:19   And so you can't have a web version,

00:53:21   you can't have obviously Windows or Android versions,

00:53:23   so it's still a very limited system,

00:53:26   it's not gonna replace servers for a lot of people,

00:53:28   and it's not like, you're not gonna build

00:53:30   the next Instagram with this,

00:53:31   'cause the next Instagram is gonna wanna have to work

00:53:33   on Android at some point.

00:53:34   - But it is an improvement, like,

00:53:36   you can take it as a different take

00:53:40   on what Core Data to iCloud.

00:53:42   That's what Core Data is. - Oh, definitely.

00:53:43   - 'Cause now we have to have a schema-less database

00:53:45   with queries that they'll run for you to notify your app,

00:53:48   And that's the bucket you put your thing in.

00:53:50   But it's a different take on iCloud Core Data

00:53:52   in that it's not something that started local and went cloud.

00:53:54   It started cloud the whole time.

00:53:56   It's always in the cloud.

00:53:58   It's very similar things can be done with both of them.

00:54:00   I don't know what the interface is to programming.

00:54:02   Does it make it look like you just have a bunch of objects

00:54:03   and they magically persist?

00:54:05   But again, they say all the right words.

00:54:09   And it seems like this will be a more reliable, easier

00:54:12   to understand, easier to debug way

00:54:14   to do some of the same tasks that people are currently doing

00:54:16   with Core Data and iCloud.

00:54:18   - Exactly.

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00:56:01   - So I have a couple questions about iOS

00:56:02   and then I think we should talk about Swift before we wrap.

00:56:06   Firstly, we don't really know anything

00:56:10   about identification, authentication,

00:56:12   that sort of thing with regard to CloudKit, right?

00:56:15   Because it would be really neat,

00:56:17   even if I didn't use barely anything else

00:56:21   with relation to iCloud,

00:56:22   like say I'm Marco and I'm writing Overcast,

00:56:24   it would ostensibly be really great

00:56:26   to get the accounts system out of CloudKit,

00:56:31   but do everything else myself.

00:56:33   Just get a token from CloudKit

00:56:35   to identify who this person is,

00:56:37   and then everything else I take care of on my own.

00:56:39   We don't know that, right?

00:56:40   - Couldn't you do that already,

00:56:41   if you wanted to, through iCloud?

00:56:42   I guess you just sort of make yourself

00:56:44   a little vestigial iCloud document container

00:56:46   that you never use.

00:56:47   - I guess you could.

00:56:48   - Well, what you could do is you could just generate

00:56:51   like a random key, or you know, generate a random ID

00:56:54   and store it in key value storage

00:56:56   and then you could read that later.

00:56:58   But then, you know, when you base your authentication

00:57:01   on iCloud, you get this big benefit of,

00:57:04   they're already logged into this thing.

00:57:06   But it also comes with a lot of weird little downsides

00:57:08   and complexities that a lot of people don't--

00:57:10   - If they sign out of iCloud, then you have to like,

00:57:13   put their stuff off to the side in case they sign back

00:57:15   into it to restore it for them, and yeah.

00:57:17   - Right, so there's a number of weirdnesses with that.

00:57:19   Now the good thing is, something else

00:57:21   that's totally unrelated to this that they announced

00:57:24   is the family sharing, which--

00:57:25   - Oh, thank God.

00:57:26   - Yeah, I think, so family sharing,

00:57:28   you can have up to like six people,

00:57:31   if you all have the same credit card,

00:57:33   which is a good limitation to prevent weird fraud issues,

00:57:36   you can have up to six people have basically

00:57:37   pooled purchases for all the iTunes media

00:57:41   as well as apps and in-app purchases,

00:57:42   which is awesome because I think this will

00:57:45   dramatically cut down on people who need to keep signing in and out of different Apple

00:57:48   IDs because they have one ID that purchases everything that they share with their wife

00:57:52   or their kids or whatever. I think this is going to really help that anyway. So that's

00:57:56   besides the point.

00:57:57   If you use iCloud as your authentication mechanism, you're tied to that. Sometimes that isn't

00:58:03   what users expect. So if someone's signing into different iCloud accounts and they launch

00:58:09   your podcast app and all of a sudden everything's gone because they signed into a different

00:58:13   to download a movie and they forgot about that

00:58:15   and they launch your app and your app has no idea

00:58:18   who they are or where all the stuff is.

00:58:19   - Apple's always been pretty good about giving you

00:58:21   a different Apple ID for each of the individual apps.

00:58:24   Like I've learned that setting up old devices for my kids

00:58:26   and I'm surprised at the number of places

00:58:28   I have to go hunt down my Apple ID and remove them

00:58:30   and put in a different Apple ID.

00:58:32   Oh, I forgot that iMessage is still signed in as me.

00:58:35   Oh, I forgot that the app store was signed in as me.

00:58:38   They're pretty good about spreading it around

00:58:41   but the big thing with the families is

00:58:43   I mean, they haven't really finished this job, they've just started this job, but it's

00:58:47   acknowledging, I tweeted during the thing, acknowledging the existence of families.

00:58:51   It's acknowledging how regular people use their products, that we exist in families,

00:58:55   that kids might have their own devices, that they get to hand me their own devices, that

00:58:59   we don't want to buy the app multiple times.

00:59:03   One of the other acknowledgements is that in general the family has a family collection

00:59:06   of photos, whereas individual kids might have individual collection of photos, but like,

00:59:10   you don't want to, "Oh, I've got to go on my wife's computer because that's the photo

00:59:12   computer that's where all our photos are like they haven't gotten that point yet

00:59:14   so then the no I life is an island type of thing but at the very least they

00:59:18   acknowledge your kids want to buy stuff you don't want them to be able to sign

00:59:22   in so now you get a notification on your device that says so-and-so wants to buy

00:59:26   something approve or reject like that's what happens in real life anyway and so

00:59:30   they're building into the OS you know electronically which is you know they

00:59:34   must all have iOS devices in their family and it's taken this long to

00:59:37   create a product that acknowledges how everybody knows everybody's using these

00:59:41   products to begin with.

00:59:42   - Yup.

00:59:43   Yeah, and I mean this is just one of those things,

00:59:44   like the amount of crap they unveiled today,

00:59:47   it's, you know, like I said two weeks ago or last week

00:59:50   that Apple lacked server-side hustle.

00:59:53   And-- - Oh, that's a good point.

00:59:55   - And I think that's probably still the case in general

00:59:58   with their online services, but I think this shows

01:00:00   where all the hustle's been spent.

01:00:03   - I think you picked an unfortunate word,

01:00:05   because all I can think about is the kid who's like

01:00:08   running with a football or trying to go somewhere for a pass and doesn't get there in time,

01:00:14   but the coach says, "All right, all right, good hustle, good hustle."

01:00:16   But it's like, he didn't make it there.

01:00:18   But good hustle, son.

01:00:19   And sure, yeah, they are showing hustle.

01:00:21   I just don't know if they're the kid who wasn't fast enough and the coach just wants to sound

01:00:25   encouraging anyway.

01:00:26   We want to see them catch the touchdown pass, not just to say, "Good hustle, son."

01:00:32   And it seems like server and service side stuff, they are still keeping pretty limited,

01:00:37   But I think they're doing, like what we see today,

01:00:40   or what we saw today is that they're doing a lot more,

01:00:42   like the whole iCloud Dropbox copy thing,

01:00:45   I did not expect that at all.

01:00:47   Like that was like a line I didn't think

01:00:49   they would ever cross with iCloud.

01:00:50   And it solves a lot of problems that we've talked about

01:00:52   with iCloud, things like the file siloing

01:00:55   and document siloing and how the heck you address that.

01:00:58   - When they first showed it, the silos are right there.

01:01:00   Look, there's a folder called Keynote.

01:01:02   That's the Keynote silo.

01:01:03   And look, there's a folder called Pages.

01:01:04   That's the Pages silo.

01:01:05   I mean, the unification of those apps across

01:01:07   of the unification of iWork makes

01:01:08   them be able to have those silos in both places,

01:01:10   because otherwise it wouldn't make any sense.

01:01:11   You'd have iOS pages versus whatever, right?

01:01:14   The silos are still all there.

01:01:15   The whole idea is that if you just

01:01:16   want to be siloed like you are now, it's fine.

01:01:18   But there's other way you can look at things.

01:01:20   And the question is, when I look at that,

01:01:22   when I look at iCloud and it sees keynote and pages

01:01:24   or whatever, can I make my own folders alongside them?

01:01:26   Yes, you can.

01:01:27   And like, well, who's sandbox is that in?

01:01:29   Is that in the keynote sandbox?

01:01:31   Is that in the whatever sandbox?

01:01:32   And the answer is, no, it's not in the keynote.

01:01:34   Document container is over there.

01:01:36   Pages document container over there,

01:01:37   but within Pages on iOS, you can hit the little whatever

01:01:40   that brings up the iOS equivalent

01:01:41   of the open save dialog box,

01:01:43   and go to someplace else that's not in your document

01:01:45   container and get a document,

01:01:47   like the folder that you made called garage sale,

01:01:49   that's gonna be your project for all your crap

01:01:50   for the garage sale.

01:01:51   - Yeah.

01:01:52   - And so, like I said, having that cake and eat it too,

01:01:55   if you wanna work the old way,

01:01:57   it still works 100% the old way.

01:01:59   If you wanna work the new way,

01:02:01   you can just pretend that old way didn't exist

01:02:02   and just make a bunch of folders at the top level

01:02:04   and never look in your document container.

01:02:05   It's all from the little extension of the sandbox,

01:02:08   reaching out into this other world

01:02:09   and allowing you to access these files.

01:02:11   - Yeah, I should point out,

01:02:12   I do not like the look of that quote unquote

01:02:14   open save dialogue.

01:02:15   I think it looks like--

01:02:16   - They never showed ListView,

01:02:17   so I don't know what it looks like, ListView.

01:02:18   - Fair point.

01:02:19   - Yeah, it might be reasonable.

01:02:20   - Yeah, the other thing I wanted to talk about

01:02:21   really quickly about iOS,

01:02:22   and maybe you guys have some other stuff too,

01:02:24   but the leaving and muting of group messages is wonderful.

01:02:29   - Again, an acknowledgement of how people,

01:02:32   is there a larger concentration of people

01:02:34   who use iPhones and iOS devices than Apple employees,

01:02:36   they must all know what it's like to have the friends

01:02:39   with the green bubble so you can't talk about,

01:02:40   to not be able to leave the group chats,

01:02:42   to have, again, with the messages with the keep button.

01:02:45   Acknowledging that you have the wrong default.

01:02:48   Like you thought the default would be keep everything

01:02:50   and let people individually delete,

01:02:51   and it turns out that the right default is delete everything

01:02:53   and let people individually keep.

01:02:55   - Yeah, and I'm just so excited.

01:02:57   I'm excited that you can leave a conversation,

01:02:59   although it was never made clear to me

01:03:01   that this is SMS and iMessage.

01:03:04   Like, maybe this is just iMessage.

01:03:05   That's still unclear.

01:03:06   Right.

01:03:07   Yeah.

01:03:08   But not only can you leave a conversation, but you can also mute a conversation.

01:03:11   I think they called it a different term, but in effect, you don't get buzzes in your pocket

01:03:17   and so on, but nevertheless, you'll still receive the messages.

01:03:21   It should be SMS too, because they'll just ignore, like it's a software thing.

01:03:23   You'll still be getting the SMSes, they're just not, you know, you could do it all client

01:03:27   side essentially.

01:03:28   Oh, I completely agree with you, but it was never made clear, and so I don't want to count

01:03:31   my chickens before they hatch.

01:03:32   But I'm extremely, extremely excited about that because I get on these group messages

01:03:37   and it's like one or two people I know and then like ten random phone numbers and of

01:03:41   course nobody's courteous enough to just reply to the author individually.

01:03:46   And then I'm on these damn conversations that last two days, often at odd hours in the morning,

01:03:50   and it's just the most frustrating thing in the world.

01:03:52   So I'm really excited about that.

01:03:54   Anything else about iOS that you guys have?

01:03:55   Well, I think they did everything that we ever wanted for iOS except for—that we talked

01:03:59   about previously—except for letting you pick a different default app.

01:04:02   They did widgets on the lock screen.

01:04:05   They didn't do widgets on the home screen.

01:04:06   They did widgets on the lock screen.

01:04:08   Being able to share documents between applications

01:04:11   for interactive communication, they just didn't do,

01:04:13   hey, I want to use Chrome as my default browser.

01:04:15   I don't want to use Apple Mail as my default mail.

01:04:17   - And that was, I mean, wishing for that

01:04:18   has always been a stretch.

01:04:19   They might still do it someday, but that's--

01:04:21   - I think that is exactly, I think third-party keyboards

01:04:23   is even more of a stretch.

01:04:24   Like, that is exactly in the ballpark

01:04:26   of the things they did.

01:04:27   Like, they did things that are as radical

01:04:30   as letting you change your default app, I feel like.

01:04:31   - Oh yeah, and the entire extension system

01:04:35   is just shockingly robust and just changes everything.

01:04:40   I mean, it's gonna take us,

01:04:44   I was talking to Underscore about this earlier,

01:04:45   I think all of a sudden now,

01:04:48   for all of iOS's history,

01:04:50   for a lot of listeners of this show,

01:04:51   certainly for me,

01:04:53   people who have been working on iOS apps

01:04:55   all this time so far,

01:04:57   there has been these entire categories of apps

01:05:00   that were impossible or impractical to make on iOS.

01:05:04   Entire capabilities that we lacked,

01:05:07   that we couldn't do well.

01:05:08   Stupid hacks, like for Instapaper,

01:05:10   having to make the stupid bookmarklet.

01:05:12   Stupid hacks like that.

01:05:14   The entire URL scheme thing that we've been hacking around

01:05:17   now, so many of these things are totally obsolete now

01:05:21   with the new extension system.

01:05:23   So not only do we have all these existing things

01:05:26   we've been doing that will now be able to be a lot better

01:05:29   and a lot more robust, but there's entire classes of apps

01:05:34   that have never been possible to make before

01:05:37   that are now possible, or entire classes of activities

01:05:40   that before you could do, but it was so clunky

01:05:42   it would never really take off and would never really be

01:05:44   that much of a good product.

01:05:45   Now those things can be native and can be good.

01:05:47   And it's gonna take, I would say, at least a year

01:05:51   for many of us who have been doing this for a while

01:05:56   to forget that we can't do these things.

01:05:59   It's like, 'cause now we have so many new capabilities

01:06:01   that all came at once in addition to this whole new language

01:06:03   that we have to learn, which we'll get to.

01:06:04   Like, we have all these new things that we can now do.

01:06:06   Like, it's gonna take a while for us to finally

01:06:09   internalize these things so that we can start realizing,

01:06:11   wait a minute, we can do X, Y, and Z.

01:06:13   Like, oh man, this would be a great idea for an app

01:06:15   or this would be a great enhancement to our existing app.

01:06:18   Now we can do this.

01:06:19   Like, it's, that list is so long of what you can now do

01:06:22   that this is just, it's gonna be ridiculously good for us,

01:06:27   I think, long term, and it's gonna take a while

01:06:28   to see the full effects.

01:06:29   And they did the obvious implementation.

01:06:31   Like, I remember when we were talking about, oh,

01:06:32   what if they let you do an activity sheet thing where

01:06:34   you can have your thing like add to Instapaper, add to Pinterest.

01:06:37   And like, well, if they do that, then every dog and his brother

01:06:39   is going to have a little stupid icon in the thing.

01:06:41   So they'll need some kind of preference for you

01:06:42   to turn them on and off.

01:06:43   And with the simplicity of iOS, notification center

01:06:47   was the first thing that showed they're not

01:06:49   afraid to give you a wall of checkboxes or switches in iOS.

01:06:52   And so they do that.

01:06:53   Like, the obvious implementation is

01:06:54   you register that you're able to hand you a rail,

01:06:56   you let the user have a gigantic wall of on/off switches

01:06:58   to tell which ones they want to see.

01:07:00   Done and done.

01:07:01   That's what we were all saying.

01:07:02   You're like, oh, you can't do that.

01:07:03   And it's just like, no, they can.

01:07:05   And the great thing about Apple doing it is like,

01:07:07   the ecosystem they're creating now

01:07:09   is not just like one app vendor manages to do something

01:07:11   within their like, oh, my three apps cooperate.

01:07:13   All the apps are gonna be able to cooperate.

01:07:15   So you are going to be able to reap the benefits

01:07:17   or latch onto and enhance some other app

01:07:20   because if you can work on the same data

01:07:22   and integrate with each other,

01:07:24   you don't need third parties to cooperate with each other

01:07:27   outside the realm of the store.

01:07:28   App developers that never knew each other,

01:07:31   the user can now use their apps to work together

01:07:33   on a single thing.

01:07:34   And that's what it's been like on the Mac always,

01:07:36   but now it'll be like that on iOS.

01:07:37   - Yeah, it's really impressive.

01:07:38   And I feel like we're seeing a whole new,

01:07:41   I don't know if progressive is the right word,

01:07:44   but a whole new progressive Apple

01:07:45   that's willing to do the things

01:07:47   that we never thought they would be willing to do.

01:07:50   And I'm really excited about it.

01:07:51   Now granted, I'm always amped up and really excited

01:07:54   and jazzed after the keynote and so on,

01:07:56   But I feel more excited today about not only what they've announced, but what we can imagine

01:08:04   in the future.

01:08:05   Because all of these impenetrable doors that have been triple locked and cement sealed

01:08:10   and welded shut, a few of them were blown open today.

01:08:14   And so if they're willing to do a new keyboard, gosh knows what they're going to be willing

01:08:17   to do in the future.

01:08:18   And so I'm really, really excited.

01:08:20   It's almost like they came out with a new...

01:08:22   Oh wait, they did come out with a new language today, didn't they, Jon?

01:08:26   But I think a lot of this is decision changes at Apple,

01:08:31   possibly it's leadership changes.

01:08:32   But I think what Jon said earlier is very correct,

01:08:34   where it's like they were able to do all this stuff

01:08:36   because of both hardware advances with now the ability

01:08:39   to have more things in memory at once,

01:08:41   and also all the security features that they've added.

01:08:45   That they've--

01:08:45   - They had to build the infrastructure

01:08:47   to enable these features.

01:08:49   - Like many of these features,

01:08:50   now that they're doing them,

01:08:53   and the way they're doing them now,

01:08:55   many of them have no downside.

01:08:57   Like there's no cost to doing this now.

01:08:59   There was always a good reason not to before,

01:09:02   but once you have the infrastructure

01:09:04   and once the hardware is caught up enough

01:09:07   to allow a lot of these things,

01:09:09   like they didn't give us home screen widgets on Springboard

01:09:12   because the home screen's always showing.

01:09:14   But when you pull in the notification center,

01:09:16   now they can intelligently refresh those

01:09:19   only when you pull in notification center.

01:09:21   A lot of people never pull in a notification center,

01:09:23   so they never have to update them.

01:09:24   Like there's all sorts of optimizations they can do,

01:09:27   all sorts of just restrictions and limits

01:09:29   on where they're choosing to do these things

01:09:31   and how they're choosing to do these things,

01:09:33   make them possible and make them come with low or no cost

01:09:37   overall to the experience.

01:09:37   - That's part of Apple's secrecy thing is that,

01:09:40   it's obvious now in hindsight how they were laying

01:09:42   the groundwork for all these things.

01:09:44   They're laying the groundwork by allowing technology

01:09:45   to advance, by the hardware getting better,

01:09:47   but also building all the APIs, enhancing them

01:09:49   so that they're able to deliver this.

01:09:50   And you could say, oh, this was the grand plan all along,

01:09:53   three years ago when we were complaining about this stuff,

01:09:55   it's just Apple couldn't say it was a secret

01:09:56   they were doing this.

01:09:57   And we don't know whether that's the case or not,

01:09:59   but it seems like from the outside

01:10:01   that their priorities haven't changed.

01:10:04   Every time we've gotten a new feature,

01:10:05   it's been like now within the bounds of the priorities

01:10:08   we set out for iOS in terms of safety and responsiveness,

01:10:11   we are now able to deliver this feature

01:10:13   that you've wanted a long time.

01:10:14   And it's like, aha, Apple has changed direction.

01:10:17   They've simply stuck to their priorities and waited,

01:10:19   not just waited in terms of the hardware,

01:10:21   but also said, "If we're going to ever do this, let's figure out the steps we would

01:10:25   have to take."

01:10:26   And over a series of iOS releases, they lay the groundwork slowly, slowly, and then now

01:10:30   finally they can come out.

01:10:31   And in iOS 8, it seems like a whole bunch of those things came to a head at the same

01:10:35   time.

01:10:36   Like, finally they had the infrastructure to do all of these things, and they did all

01:10:40   of them.

01:10:41   Yeah, it's been really impressive.

01:10:43   So, we should talk about this new language.

01:10:46   Jon, what do you think?

01:10:48   I don't know.

01:10:50   I feel vindicated in some ways, because if you think about the Copeland 2010 thing, and

01:10:58   2010 came and went and nothing happened.

01:11:01   One was revisited.

01:11:02   Was that 2012?

01:11:03   2010 was when I revisited.

01:11:04   Oh, right, right, right, right.

01:11:05   Because you would have written the original in like 2003 or something like that.

01:11:09   2003?

01:11:10   2005.

01:11:11   Or 2005, as you say.

01:11:14   Where's Jason when we need him?

01:11:16   How many numbers are there?

01:11:17   Anyway.

01:11:18   John is right.

01:11:19   is right. The whole debate, you know, amongst us on the outside of Apple is about like,

01:11:28   why do you think they need a new language and runtime? Why can't they just use Objective-C

01:11:31   and continue to enhance it? And what Apple came out with was not a continued enhancement

01:11:38   of Objective-C, it was a new language. Unequivocally, a new language. It looks different, it's got

01:11:43   a different name.

01:11:46   The only thing they haven't changed is the API seems to be under the covers, the same

01:11:50   API, but the way you use it is different because there are so many language features that essentially

01:11:55   convert to a big whole mess of Objective-C code.

01:12:00   So they're sort of getting a new API without getting a new API, which is very clever.

01:12:05   They're not saying, "Oh, this language is so different, we are going to need all new

01:12:08   APIs, all new function names, all new arguments," or whatever.

01:12:11   They said, "Here's this compact way to say something that essentially is this big, long

01:12:16   block of -- not block, but you know, this big wad of Objective-C code.

01:12:20   You don't have to write that big wad anymore.

01:12:22   All of that intent is expressed in this thing, and it's not a new API."

01:12:26   And that, I think, is very clever.

01:12:28   Now, I haven't had time to look at the language itself.

01:12:32   It looks a lot like a language written by people who like C and C++ and Objective-C.

01:12:38   I'm not necessarily one of those people, but for people, it should be familiar to them.

01:12:42   I heard Joel Spolsky say on Twitter that it looked a lot like Go, and his comparison was

01:12:47   C# is to Java as Swift is to Go.

01:12:51   And again, not having looked at it very long, that seems vaguely apt.

01:12:56   But the bottom line is they have a new language.

01:13:00   They're committing to it going forward.

01:13:02   It builds on everything they've done before.

01:13:04   Builds on LLVM, it builds on their whole compiler infrastructure, builds on their IDE.

01:13:08   On Arc.

01:13:09   Yeah, on Arc.

01:13:10   And you know, it is the compromise you talked about, Objective-C without the C, which was

01:13:14   actually on a slide.

01:13:15   The actual phrase, "it's not Objective-C without the C," I couldn't even friggin'

01:13:17   believe it.

01:13:18   I was trying to remember who originally came up with that phrase on the web.

01:13:21   It wasn't me.

01:13:22   But it was in the discussion, like, why don't they just keep shaving the edges off Objective-C?

01:13:25   Like, it's Objective-C, but you won't need pointers.

01:13:27   Like, Swift doesn't have the friggin' stars.

01:13:30   You can mix it with Objective-C code, there are pointers behind the scenes, but you don't

01:13:33   have access, you have to dereference them and start doing random crap, and this is their

01:13:37   Unsafe code mixed with safe code, but the safe code is so very clearly safe

01:13:41   And it's super fast because under the covers it's compiling down to

01:13:45   You know LVM intermediary code which gets optimized. I mean you know it's the same. It's calling the same API's

01:13:52   Someone was asking when they get the RC for benchmark like look how much faster Swift is at RC for benchmark that objective C

01:13:58   How could objective C be so slow?

01:14:01   And doing this RC for benchmark

01:14:04   What is it about Swift that makes it faster? I mean people would say okay, so fine. So Swift is just as fast good

01:14:09   How can how can Swift be faster? I don't know the answer to that having just come out of the keynote, but my guess is that

01:14:13   Swift lets you

01:14:16   Express what you want to do in a way that doesn't have all the baggage of C and C++

01:14:20   And all those other languages because they have to be so cautious about well I can do this optimization

01:14:26   But what if the thing that I call actually writes to this memory address exactly and Swift can say I?

01:14:31   I tell you that's not going to happen,

01:14:32   because they have no way to get at that.

01:14:34   There's no way for them to dereference something

01:14:35   and go scribble over the section of it.

01:14:37   Like, trust me, it's going to be the same.

01:14:40   What was that?

01:14:41   Anyway.

01:14:42   We're back.

01:14:42   Trust me, it's going to be safe to do this optimization,

01:14:45   because the program has expressed its intent.

01:14:47   And we don't have to worry about all these cases in a C and C++

01:14:50   compiler that are unsafe, that the compiler cannot make strong

01:14:54   guarantees about-- it has to do with the cautious thing.

01:14:57   Now, I don't know if that's why the RC4 benchmark is faster,

01:15:00   But that's what I've always been talking about,

01:15:02   is about what can you do with a new language?

01:15:04   It's not just syntactic sugar.

01:15:06   It's because you can allow the pro-order

01:15:08   to express their intent without having

01:15:10   all these details of the implementation of a memory

01:15:12   unsafe language that the runtime and compiling system

01:15:14   has to worry about.

01:15:15   Yeah, I think you're exactly right.

01:15:17   The performance gains don't make a lot of sense otherwise.

01:15:20   But it has to be about optimizations and all

01:15:24   the assumptions that the compiler can make.

01:15:26   And optimizing compilers are so advanced these days.

01:15:29   And the more information you can give them

01:15:32   about what they need to do and what they don't need to do,

01:15:34   the better optimized code they can generate.

01:15:36   It makes a huge difference.

01:15:37   - I think there was a big presentation

01:15:39   by someone on the LLVM thing,

01:15:40   it might have been Chris Ladd or somebody else,

01:15:41   that was going through undefined behavior

01:15:43   according to the C specification.

01:15:44   C specification says if you do X or Y,

01:15:46   it's undefined behavior.

01:15:47   And there are so many cases that it comes up

01:15:49   and it ties, they're rigging LLVM and the optimizer

01:15:52   and the code generator, it ties their hands.

01:15:54   It's like, boy, we would love to do this optimization,

01:15:57   But according to the C-Spec, it's not safe for us to do it.

01:16:01   And so they would just be sitting there just waiting to unleash these optimizations.

01:16:04   And with Swift, they can define a language that is not impaired in that way, that doesn't

01:16:08   have all these edge cases and say, "Now, finally, we can pull out all this optimization."

01:16:12   It is safe to do this, guaranteed.

01:16:14   Do it and make your code faster.

01:16:15   Yeah, the other thing that was really impressive about Swift, which comes back to what you

01:16:19   were saying earlier about constant priorities, is the protections around doing something

01:16:25   stupid.

01:16:26   being overrunning an array. So if this array is 20 items and you ask for item

01:16:31   25, it's gonna catch that and not let you do something either stupid or dangerous.

01:16:35   And it's gonna probably fail dramatically, but that's a much better

01:16:39   approach than just letting you run amok in memory that really doesn't belong to

01:16:43   you. And that's just one example of many different protections they've made in

01:16:47   order to prevent something like the Heartbleed book. Yeah, they didn't want to

01:16:51   give up anything. So like compile time, static analysis, strong typing, like you

01:16:55   So we can catch that, you know, if there was an array out of bounds error, they would catch

01:16:59   that at compile time if they could, you know, if it wasn't a runtime value being put in

01:17:02   there because they didn't give up any of the typing stuff.

01:17:03   Like I saw this tweet that I didn't read it myself, but someone was saying in the Swift

01:17:07   book that Apple put out on the iBook store, which you can go get for free right now, it

01:17:10   was saying, Swift is designed to be a language that you can use to write everything from

01:17:14   operating systems up to applications.

01:17:16   Like a single language that it's not like, oh, well, you just use this to make your fancy

01:17:19   GUI apps.

01:17:20   When you write the OS, you have to do it in C. It seems like Apple is saying, we can be

01:17:24   Swift from top to bottom. Everything we make, all the software we make as Apple from the

01:17:28   operating system itself all the way up to all of our GUI applications in theory could

01:17:31   be written in Swift because that's how it's designed. It's designed to be as efficient

01:17:35   as the low-level languages, but even more pleasant to use than Objective-C was. And

01:17:39   that is an ambitious goal, and I applaud them for it. I'm not sure they've achieved it

01:17:42   yet because I haven't read enough about the language, but I mean, what more can you

01:17:46   ask? New language, you know, from top to bottom, fully committed.

01:17:51   - Yeah, I mean, it always seems,

01:17:53   like this is one of the reasons why

01:17:54   I don't learn new languages very often,

01:17:55   much to your chagrin.

01:17:57   It always seems like a waste of technology

01:18:01   and resources and effort to have these languages

01:18:04   that have great feature X, Y, and Z,

01:18:08   and then oh, but it doesn't run on Linux,

01:18:10   or you can't use it to build GUIs,

01:18:12   or like there's all these limitations

01:18:14   that's like it's not really the fault of the language,

01:18:16   it's more of a library issue usually,

01:18:18   or an implementation or VM issue or something like that.

01:18:20   You know, and it just seems like a waste to have,

01:18:24   you know, to become an expert in a language

01:18:26   that you then can't use for X, Y, or Z.

01:18:28   Like, you know, at least from my point of view

01:18:30   of not wanting to learn new languages very often.

01:18:32   But, like this is the kind of thing, like looking at this,

01:18:35   obviously yes, I'm going to learn this because I think,

01:18:37   I think every Objective-C programmer today

01:18:40   should start learning Swift as soon as they can

01:18:42   because it's-- - Absolutely.

01:18:43   - You know, it's not gonna, it's not like Objective-C

01:18:45   is going to be deprecated or start, or go away in a year.

01:18:50   Look at how long Apple has supported the old C APIs,

01:18:54   all the core foundation stuff, C++ compilation

01:18:58   and everything, this is gonna be here for,

01:18:59   Objective-C's gonna be around for a while.

01:19:01   - I mean, but they map to each other,

01:19:02   that's the freaky thing about it.

01:19:03   Like, they showed the thing where they said,

01:19:05   you can look in the Objective-C header

01:19:06   and we'll translate it mechanically to the Swift header,

01:19:09   because they didn't change the API.

01:19:11   Underneath it is like, you can write

01:19:13   the equivalent Objective-C code,

01:19:14   the Objective-C code that would be unsafe,

01:19:16   'cause you could dereference anything and do crazy stuff.

01:19:18   The Swift code is safe because what you write doesn't include any of that stuff.

01:19:21   That's fairly genius, like saying that we're going to make—I mean, in that respect, it's

01:19:26   like Go.

01:19:27   This is a low-level language with a high-level syntax.

01:19:30   And the other interesting thing to me was that as much as we all bemoan Xcode, they

01:19:35   spent enough time to make the Xcode tooling good.

01:19:38   Just like you said, when you look at documentation, it will mechanically translate from Objective-C

01:19:44   to Swift.

01:19:45   they have, what is it, Playground, is that right? Which is basically like not quite

01:19:49   a command-line like interactive interpreter. It's better than that and

01:19:53   it's GUI based. And so they were showing demos of, you know, rewinding and playing

01:19:59   animations and doing things that I would love to be able to do. And

01:20:03   this is just Xcode's Swift tooling. There's a bunch of other

01:20:07   tooling, I think most of which is ND8, that's also extremely impressive. And they

01:20:13   didn't just throw this language out there and say, "Hey, you're probably gonna

01:20:15   need to learn this," and, "Oh, you know, we're not really gonna help you. Just

01:20:18   there's some documentation, go figure it out." There's the iBook that Jon

01:20:22   mentioned. There's this Playground thing within Xcode. There's a whole bunch of

01:20:27   documentation on their website. I mean, they're really, they've taken this

01:20:31   seriously. And the rumblings I've heard from a few friends is that not

01:20:36   everyone at Apple knew about this, but those that did have been working on it

01:20:39   for a long time, and I think that's pretty apparent pretty quickly.

01:20:42   Yeah, and all the more impressive that it was kept secret all those times.

01:20:45   Absolutely.

01:20:46   I mean, there were people—from what I've gathered—there were people at Apple that

01:20:48   had no freaking clue this was about to happen, which to me is just mind-boggling.

01:20:52   I mean, again, that's the genius of the transparency is they didn't need to know, because it's

01:20:56   not as if—once you saw them translate that header file, it's like, they could translate

01:21:02   your Objective-C source to Swift, mechanically perhaps, if they wanted to.

01:21:06   I mean, probably not because you have the C parts that they wouldn't be able to—you

01:21:09   I bet they could do a lot of it.

01:21:11   So the rest of the organization doesn't need to know, because it's all binary compatible.

01:21:16   In the State of the Union thing, which someone just tweeted that you could stream the State

01:21:19   of the Union without any kind of password so that it must be public, or they mentioned

01:21:23   that...

01:21:24   They said it was going to be binary compatible, but not...

01:21:29   Not necessarily source compatible, because what they're saying is, "We don't know whether

01:21:32   we even have the syntax of this thing nailed down, even though we've been developing it

01:21:35   for who knows how long internally, they're reserving the right to change their mind about

01:21:39   the syntax before the release of any of the OSs that are built on it during the dev period.

01:21:44   And of course, they'll go on Swift 1.0, Swift 2.0, like they've done with Objective-C that

01:21:48   extended it like crazy, but Swift is designed, they're saying it was defined in terms of

01:21:51   itself, which any Perl 6 fans out there, the five of you, hi guys, will know, you know,

01:21:58   Perl 6 is also defined in terms of itself, you know, the language spec was written, you

01:22:03   the language itself is written in Perl 6. It doesn't have the mutable syntax of Perl 6, but

01:22:08   that whole philosophy that Swift is sort of designed to be self-hosting and that these things

01:22:12   that we think that are intrinsic to the language like arrays and collections or whatever are

01:22:15   actually not, but rather like it's library-based. They're part of the libraries that build on it. So

01:22:19   it's a modern construct of how to build language. Don't just define a syntax and say this is the

01:22:24   language forevermore and then have different versions of it. Rather, design a language like

01:22:28   Like LLVM, LLVM is a compiler system

01:22:30   made as a series of libraries.

01:22:32   Swift, made by the same people, surprise,

01:22:34   is a language made as a series of libraries,

01:22:36   and the libraries will change and be added to over time.

01:22:39   And the core language itself is very, very small and tight.

01:22:42   - Yeah, and this is also a very wise way to do it

01:22:44   in that they didn't replace the frameworks.

01:22:47   They didn't, you know, 'cause--

01:22:48   - I mean, they couldn't, it's too much work.

01:22:49   - Right, and that's the thing.

01:22:50   And that's, we were always kinda worried,

01:22:52   like, well, they sure do seem to be

01:22:53   adding a lot of frameworks, and this is gonna be

01:22:57   a big job to ever convert this to a new language.

01:22:59   And instead they just designed a language

01:23:00   that didn't need that conversion.

01:23:02   And that's gonna help us too.

01:23:04   It's not gonna take very long for us to learn Swift

01:23:06   because we'll learn the syntax in a weekend

01:23:09   and we'll get the bits and pieces,

01:23:10   like the fringes over time,

01:23:12   but we already know the entire library.

01:23:15   The libraries have not changed.

01:23:16   We know the entire, we know all the frameworks already

01:23:19   and that's a huge win.

01:23:21   - I mean there's still the win that they're not getting

01:23:23   which is like using some of these APIs from Swift

01:23:26   may seem silly.

01:23:28   In other words, if these APIs are designed

01:23:30   in a world with Swift, would these APIs

01:23:31   look the way they do?

01:23:33   I mean, even stuff like-- I don't

01:23:34   know how they're going to handle error parameters,

01:23:36   you know, with write back error parameters, stuff like that.

01:23:39   I'm sure there's massaging to be done there.

01:23:41   So it's the right compromise for them,

01:23:44   but it is still a compromise in that if you were designing

01:23:46   a new API in a world where Swift was the beginning instead

01:23:49   of the end point of language evolution,

01:23:51   your API would look different.

01:23:53   But that's just not an option for them.

01:23:54   And so this compromise, like ARK kind of,

01:23:57   is the right compromise for Apple this time.

01:24:00   I'm just happy that--

01:24:02   I'm not going to say that they saw the light,

01:24:04   because I'm not convincing anybody of anything.

01:24:06   But I mean, I'm just happy that it happened,

01:24:08   because I thought it needed to happen,

01:24:10   and I'm excited that it did.

01:24:13   And assuming this process has been going on for years,

01:24:16   this means I've been having conversations

01:24:18   with people from Apple who knew that Swift was happening,

01:24:22   and could not tell me.

01:24:24   And we would talk about--

01:24:25   I can just imagine what they must have been thinking

01:24:27   as I'm talking to them and saying,

01:24:28   well, look at what you can do with a whole new language

01:24:30   instead of just extending Objective C. And they would--

01:24:33   yeah, well.

01:24:35   They knew.

01:24:36   They did it.

01:24:38   At some point, they're going to start making

01:24:40   APIs that only work in Swift.

01:24:43   There's so many APIs in previous transitions,

01:24:45   like when going from Carbon to Cocoa--

01:24:47   Block-based APIs, right?

01:24:49   Exactly.

01:24:49   They don't work without blocks.

01:24:51   Right.

01:24:51   And yeah, there are certain things

01:24:52   where they're just not going to,

01:24:54   certain APIs, they're probably just not gonna make

01:24:56   Objective-C versions anymore.

01:24:58   But the amazing thing about these tools

01:25:00   and the way they built this thing is that

01:25:02   you can opt into Swift, it's just like,

01:25:04   oh, you can opt in per compilation unit,

01:25:05   which is per source file.

01:25:07   And so you can have an app,

01:25:09   you don't have, I don't have to convert my entire app

01:25:11   to Swift to use any of it.

01:25:13   I can convert one file.

01:25:15   I can just start writing new modules in Swift

01:25:17   and eventually port the whole application slowly over time

01:25:20   as I update things.

01:25:22   There's so many, the way they're doing this

01:25:24   is so immensely practical for the environment

01:25:28   that we're actually in today.

01:25:29   - And now think of hindsight.

01:25:30   Remember how gross the block syntax looks and looked

01:25:32   with the carrot and all that crazy stuff?

01:25:34   And remember the dot syntax?

01:25:35   It was like, I don't know about the dot

01:25:36   and the regular thing, some people stuck with a square bracket.

01:25:38   In hindsight, you're like,

01:25:40   don't worry about the ugly block syntax, guys.

01:25:42   In Swift, it'll just be curly braces.

01:25:45   Don't worry about the stupid dot syntax, guys.

01:25:47   In Swift, it'll all be dots.

01:25:48   Like, if you look backwards at the Objective-C enhancements

01:25:51   Some of them are awkward and weird or whatever.

01:25:53   All of them are just like laying the groundwork

01:25:55   to get Swift up to speed.

01:25:56   And that's what makes me think Swift must have been

01:25:58   a multi-year long process.

01:25:59   And it would be poetic if I think back to like,

01:26:02   did this project start in 2010?

01:26:03   (laughing)

01:26:05   - That actually, based on some things we're hearing,

01:26:07   it sounds like that might be around when it started.

01:26:10   That's certainly in the ballpark.

01:26:12   And you think about how long this kind of effort

01:26:13   takes anyway.

01:26:14   It would have to have been at least,

01:26:16   I'm sure they didn't start this in 2013, 2012.

01:26:20   probably 10, 11-ish, but this is,

01:26:24   I'm so happy with how they're doing this.

01:26:28   It's just--

01:26:29   - It's extremely pragmatic.

01:26:30   - Yes, exactly, it really is.

01:26:32   And it's a way to use their strengths.

01:26:38   Apple's really good at recognizing

01:26:40   when they have something good,

01:26:42   and being able to leverage their strengths

01:26:43   in new creative ways.

01:26:45   The DevTools team especially is just so, so good.

01:26:49   The only thing I'm upset about here,

01:26:53   besides that I have to learn something new,

01:26:54   which I guess is probably a good thing,

01:26:55   the only thing I'm upset about is

01:26:58   I finally figured out block syntax.

01:26:59   - Yeah, I know.

01:27:00   - I finally stopped having to go to our

01:27:02   effing block syntax friend site.

01:27:03   Like I finally stopped having to go there like last month.

01:27:06   I finally got it.

01:27:07   I can write block as method parameters.

01:27:10   I can write it as variables.

01:27:11   Like I finally figured out block syntax reliably

01:27:14   like this month and now it's all--

01:27:17   - Don't feel bad Marco.

01:27:18   I know how to do Perl 4 formats.

01:27:20   No one knows what that is in this room.

01:27:22   The five people out there who do the Perl 6 stuff

01:27:24   understand that, and that information

01:27:25   became useless as well.

01:27:27   - So today, your knowledge of blocks,

01:27:29   the syntax of blocks went out the window.

01:27:31   Marco is wearing the ATP shirt,

01:27:34   and now all the code on the back is basically deprecated.

01:27:37   - Yeah, why didn't you write that in Swift?

01:27:39   - What's wrong with you?

01:27:41   But no, it's been an extremely exciting day.

01:27:44   I can't wait to learn more about it,

01:27:45   'cause just like John was saying,

01:27:47   We've had no time today to look at this.

01:27:49   And so at a glance, this all looks really compelling.

01:27:53   And I presume that as we look deeper and deeper,

01:27:55   it's going to look more and more compelling,

01:27:57   but you never know.

01:27:58   But I'm so excited to see what the next four days bring

01:28:02   and see what we're gonna learn about all of this.

01:28:05   I mean, I noticed that in the sessions,

01:28:07   there's like beginner level Swift, advanced level Swift,

01:28:10   or intermediary and advanced, like all this week.

01:28:13   And maybe that's under NDA and if so, my bad.

01:28:15   but suffice to say, they're doing multi-tier Swift sessions

01:28:19   all in the span of a week.

01:28:20   So I don't know who they think is going

01:28:22   to intermediate level in the span of like 24 hours.

01:28:24   - No, no, I think it's like if you've never seen,

01:28:26   like if you're a new developer, period,

01:28:28   like they're gonna go through the basics,

01:28:29   whereas if you have experience with seven languages,

01:28:31   I think you could jump right into the advanced Swift thing

01:28:33   and they'd be like, oh, I understand, like, you know.

01:28:36   If you don't know what closures are,

01:28:37   them just showing you that in the advanced thing,

01:28:39   like wait, I don't even know what it is you're talking about

01:28:41   let alone how it behaves in, you know,

01:28:43   in terms of like, again with all the Swift code,

01:28:46   I didn't send it in double underscore weeks or strongs,

01:28:48   or you know, like what is the scope of the variables,

01:28:51   how are they retaining the Swift, it's like,

01:28:53   you don't need to worry about that anymore.

01:28:54   I'm hoping you don't need to, I haven't looked people up.

01:28:55   - Well, because it does use the Arc model underneath,

01:28:58   so like, things like weak references,

01:29:01   - Right, but do you need to annotate?

01:29:02   - That's still a thing.

01:29:02   - Do you need to annotate that anymore

01:29:04   is what I'm getting at, or is it built into the language

01:29:06   like that there are guarantees,

01:29:07   what do we have to notice about that?

01:29:08   - Well, there are certain things, like you know,

01:29:09   like you can't, within the Arc model,

01:29:11   you can't prevent retain cycles in certain scenarios

01:29:14   without having the concept of a weak reference.

01:29:16   And so, what we've seen so far of Swift

01:29:19   is we've seen the curated good stuff that demos well.

01:29:23   We haven't seen the ugly stuff that they have to have yet.

01:29:28   And it might get less pretty, but the fact is,

01:29:30   I'm sure it'll be close enough, it'll be good.

01:29:34   - They remove so much noise, even just with type inference,

01:29:36   which again, I'm talking about last year,

01:29:38   was like, oh, they could add type inference to Objective-C.

01:29:40   They kind of did, but that wasn't

01:29:41   the next thing on the list.

01:29:42   But it's part of the big giant language that

01:29:45   incorporates everything you've seen before.

01:29:46   And getting rid of the types everywhere,

01:29:48   getting rid of-- obviously retain release went away with arc.

01:29:52   And I'm hoping the silly annotations

01:29:54   needed for the compiler to figure out what to do.

01:29:57   Like you said, you probably need something to break cycles.

01:30:00   But I don't know what that's going to look like.

01:30:02   And it could be that they just have strong guarantees

01:30:04   in the language.

01:30:05   And it won't allow you to create cycles

01:30:07   if you use the structures in this way.

01:30:09   if you create them in this way and you do create them,

01:30:11   there's no way to break them, so just don't do that.

01:30:13   We don't know yet.

01:30:14   - I think they're still gonna need it,

01:30:14   'cause for certain delegate methods, anyway,

01:30:17   I'm sure they'll need it, but, and just--

01:30:20   - You know what we learned today is that,

01:30:21   I feel like I learned today that Apple is not only floored,

01:30:25   but they are standing on the gas.

01:30:27   And so many things, like, there are a bunch of things

01:30:31   I talked about with regard to layouts,

01:30:32   so if you're not doing auto layout, which I'm not,

01:30:35   and I need to learn it, if you're not doing auto layout,

01:30:38   you gotta get on that train,

01:30:40   'cause you're getting left behind.

01:30:41   You know, if you're not using dot syntax,

01:30:43   you gotta get on that train, you're getting left behind.

01:30:45   - Oh, you gotta get on the Swift train,

01:30:46   like Margo said, like learn Swift.

01:30:47   And we should talk about that section of State of the Union,

01:30:50   which is apparently public, about,

01:30:52   what was it called?

01:30:54   Size, what are they called?

01:30:56   - Oh, yeah. - Oh, adaptive UI

01:30:57   is their approach. - Yeah, but what are the,

01:30:58   but they're like size modes, or size?

01:31:00   - Yeah, it's-- - Size class,

01:31:02   that's what it is. - I mean, they were basically,

01:31:03   they were like screaming with a megaphone of subtlety.

01:31:06   We are making a bigger iPhone.

01:31:08   Get ready.

01:31:08   And also possibly side-by-side apps on the iPad,

01:31:10   but we're not sure yet.

01:31:12   Get ready.

01:31:13   Get ready now.

01:31:13   Yeah, start using this stuff, please.

01:31:16   And I'm actually curious.

01:31:17   I haven't even looked at the APIs.

01:31:18   I hope you don't have to use storyboards

01:31:19   to get a lot of that.

01:31:20   Yeah, I don't think you do.

01:31:21   I think that's just their-- like, you could do it all in code.

01:31:23   I hope the storyboard is the way to lay it out.

01:31:25   And it may be complicated to do in code, but yeah.

01:31:27   Like we said on the previous show,

01:31:28   it could be that they just don't say anything about these things

01:31:30   and just have a bunch of APIs about making your app different

01:31:32   sizes.

01:31:33   They totally do.

01:31:34   there was a long section of that thing about that.

01:31:37   - And it was extremely awkward,

01:31:38   'cause they were dancing all around the fact

01:31:42   that they're basically saying,

01:31:44   there are bigger iPhones coming, prepare yourselves.

01:31:47   - And even the side-by-side app things,

01:31:48   which require exactly the same thing.

01:31:50   And their sizes were so vague,

01:31:53   it was like, compact vertically, compact horizontally.

01:31:56   It was just, forget about resolution.

01:31:59   Like, it's all-- - I'm telling you,

01:32:00   they're making a square iPhone.

01:32:01   'Cause there's a new, like, you can do square--

01:32:02   - Yeah, well, that was the iWatch.

01:32:03   It was a gigantic square watch.

01:32:05   That's it.

01:32:06   I mean, this is another example where Android, I think,

01:32:09   from the beginning would always have kind of like your UI

01:32:11   could be any size because our phones are--

01:32:13   we're not going to control the size, so your UI better adapt.

01:32:16   So you have like a bag grid type of things

01:32:18   where you put items in in constraints.

01:32:19   And Apple was just like, the iPhone is here.

01:32:21   It's fixed.

01:32:22   This fixed pixel size is just deal with it.

01:32:24   And they worked over the series of eight releases

01:32:27   to slowly creep up on this concept.

01:32:28   And what they've come up with is kind of a weird mongrel

01:32:31   of half fixed layout, half auto layout, and people

01:32:33   in the transition.

01:32:34   But during that whole period, they

01:32:36   had the right product for the right time.

01:32:37   And now is finally the right time

01:32:39   for what Android was at from the beginning, which is like,

01:32:41   look, you're not going to know what side of your device

01:32:42   is trying to make a UI that looks good everywhere.

01:32:44   Apple made a UI that looks good in all of its previous devices.

01:32:48   And now Apple is trying to show people

01:32:50   how to continue to make UIs that look good in any size device,

01:32:54   and not quote unquote, "any size."

01:32:56   And it's a difference in philosophy.

01:32:58   because Android apps, trying to make a UI

01:33:01   that scales to any size and shape is really hard,

01:33:04   and that's why a lot of Android UIs were weird,

01:33:06   especially like the stretched out apps

01:33:07   on the Android tablets and everything.

01:33:10   Apple never did that.

01:33:10   At every step of the way, Apple says,

01:33:12   we have a way for you to make awesome looking apps

01:33:14   in every possible size thing,

01:33:15   and that way keeps changing as the number of sizes change,

01:33:17   and this is the newest way.

01:33:19   And it is the most complicated way,

01:33:20   but still also the most capable.

01:33:22   - But I think this way is also probably

01:33:23   like the end game of that path,

01:33:25   because first it was, the Spring since Ruts,

01:33:28   just like a very, very basic model of scalable windows

01:33:31   and views and everything.

01:33:32   Then you have auto layout which is much more advanced

01:33:35   but the main limitation with auto layout is like,

01:33:37   you know, without being all crazy with dynamic checks

01:33:40   and everything, you basically were applying

01:33:42   the same constraints, the same layout to a view

01:33:45   regardless of what size it was.

01:33:46   And now you have more of a concept of like

01:33:48   responsive web design which is like,

01:33:50   all right, for this size class,

01:33:54   you're gonna use this set of constraints.

01:33:55   For this size class, you're gonna adjust them in this way

01:33:57   you can use this entirely different set of constraints.

01:33:59   That I think is like, it's the end of that road

01:34:03   and they can make it better,

01:34:04   but I think that's like the kind of system

01:34:08   that they'll pretty much need for the next 15 years.

01:34:11   - Because now all they have to do is add size classes.

01:34:13   - Right, exactly. - I mean the size classes

01:34:14   in the beginning are stupid, it's like compact,

01:34:16   what does that even mean?

01:34:17   But they use the same constant values for the enums

01:34:20   or whatever the hell they are

01:34:21   and just keep adding size classes

01:34:22   and then it's like, well now we have the Apple

01:34:24   that works on your wall size display

01:34:26   with the new Apple wallpaper that you paint on in 2075,

01:34:29   and then it just has a different size class.

01:34:31   - Yeah, why not?

01:34:31   So, we should probably wrap, but what do you think, Marco?

01:34:35   Thumbs up, thumbs down, are you excited, are you happy,

01:34:38   are you disappointed, what do you think?

01:34:40   - I'm extremely happy and excited.

01:34:42   I'm a little afraid of my future workload,

01:34:45   but again, most of the things they've added,

01:34:50   I was afraid going into this,

01:34:51   what if iOS 8 adds something ridiculous that I must have

01:34:55   and then I have to then delay my app until eight ships.

01:34:58   And I don't, assuming that you can get the widgets types

01:35:02   and all the embed type stuff,

01:35:04   if you can get that conditionally compiled,

01:35:07   the way you've been able to do it with previous versions,

01:35:08   like if I can ship an app with the SDK when it ships,

01:35:13   that I can have all these things

01:35:15   but still be compatible with seven, then that's fine.

01:35:19   I can still ship the app this summer or sometime.

01:35:21   I don't have to wait until October or whenever.

01:35:24   I do have a lot more work to do now

01:35:26   with getting all this stuff supported

01:35:29   by the time it ships, but I'm not like, you know,

01:35:33   freaked out about having to massively change my plans.

01:35:37   And the new things that they gave us are so good.

01:35:40   I mean, they gave us so much of what we both wanted

01:35:45   and never thought we'd get that it's,

01:35:48   I'm just so excited to get it.

01:35:50   I mean, and this week, we're gonna be here

01:35:53   of the next four days and learn about some of these things

01:35:56   in sessions, but we're not gonna get a full appreciation

01:35:58   for it until we go home and start actually using

01:36:01   these things, and that's gonna happen over the span

01:36:03   of months and years, and over months and years,

01:36:06   we're all going to appreciate the scale

01:36:09   of what we got today.

01:36:11   Right now, it's still very new, and it's still gonna take

01:36:14   a lot of thought and experience with it

01:36:16   before we realize the full effects.

01:36:18   - Are you gonna do the size class stuff

01:36:19   so you're ready for the bigger iPhone?

01:36:22   I will probably do that once I make an iPad interface.

01:36:27   That'll probably be part of that work.

01:36:28   I haven't done that yet.

01:36:29   I'm not gonna launch as far as I know with an iPad version.

01:36:32   So that'll probably come later fall or winter or whatever.

01:36:36   - All right, so John, how do you feel?

01:36:38   - I'm kind of overwhelmed by the amount of stuff

01:36:40   that they've put out there.

01:36:41   I'm not sure, ostensibly all that I care about

01:36:45   in these announcements is the OS X stuff

01:36:46   and I'm thinking about my review

01:36:48   and I still don't have that OS pinned down.

01:36:50   I still haven't even used it.

01:36:51   I don't really know what to make of that.

01:36:53   People think, oh, this is going to be a big review.

01:36:55   But my initial impression is that it's not

01:36:57   going to be that big.

01:36:57   It's going to be small.

01:36:58   But I may be misled by the things that are OS 10--

01:37:02   that are relevant to OS 10 that were presented

01:37:04   in the other parts of the keynote.

01:37:05   So I don't know yet.

01:37:07   But Yosemite, it's interesting.

01:37:11   It's strange.

01:37:12   The Mac was due for a visual refresh.

01:37:14   I'm not sure if I like it or not yet.

01:37:17   I'll have to spend some time with it and see.

01:37:19   But all the other stuff--

01:37:20   I mean, I'm excited as a user about the iOS 8 stuff.

01:37:22   I'm excited to use all the apps that people

01:37:24   will make on iOS 8 to take advantage of these features.

01:37:28   Like really, this is--

01:37:30   iOS is time to shine.

01:37:31   It's finally coming into its own.

01:37:32   And that's what I'm excited about from a user perspective.

01:37:34   And of course, the language stuff

01:37:35   from an academic perspective seems like just-- yeah.

01:37:38   I mean, I will--

01:37:40   the never-ending nitpicking of Swift

01:37:41   itself will begin once I learn what the heck I can get out

01:37:43   right now.

01:37:44   But bottom line is, like, they did it.

01:37:46   They, you know, they've got a new language.

01:37:48   and it may not have been the way I wanted it

01:37:52   or all the things that I wanted out of a new language,

01:37:55   but just merely the acknowledgement

01:37:57   that it's not objectivity forever, it just feels good.

01:38:00   - Yeah, now like I said, I'm just so pleased

01:38:02   to see that Apple is really moving

01:38:04   and they're moving quick.

01:38:05   And sitting here now, I have no reason to doubt

01:38:08   that any of this is gonna work well.

01:38:09   Ask me about this in three or four months

01:38:11   when iOS 8 comes out and all this iCloud stuff

01:38:14   actually happens and maybe nothing works

01:38:16   and then I regret being excited about how quick

01:38:19   Apple's moving, but sitting here now,

01:38:20   it's really encouraging and I'm really excited

01:38:24   to play with all of this stuff.

01:38:25   And it should be really awesome.

01:38:27   We'll see what happens.

01:38:28   - Yeah, I really can't wait.

01:38:30   They're clearly firing on all cylinders.

01:38:33   And we didn't even mention the lack of hardware updates today

01:38:37   because the simple fact is it just didn't matter.

01:38:39   They gave us so much on the software and dev tools end,

01:38:43   which is appropriate for a developer conference,

01:38:45   They gave us so much there that we're content for a while.

01:38:49   I can learn Swift on my old crappy monitor.

01:38:52   (laughing)

01:38:54   They've made me busy enough that I can temporarily forget

01:38:57   for maybe the next couple of months,

01:38:59   I can forget that we don't have

01:39:00   retina thermal screens yet.

01:39:01   And thank goodness they didn't release a TV and a watch

01:39:06   for us to also develop for this summer.

01:39:08   You know, come on.

01:39:09   - I mean, yeah, no new category but nobody cares.

01:39:11   But the thing is, at WWDC, the hardware announcements,

01:39:13   as much as I love them, are a distraction

01:39:15   from everything else.

01:39:16   Because for the rest of the week at the conference,

01:39:19   they don't talk about the hardware.

01:39:20   Like, it's all about software.

01:39:21   This is a developer's conference,

01:39:23   and we love it when there's hardware,

01:39:24   and it's exciting, and you see them in the little glass too,

01:39:25   but then they go away, and for the rest of the week,

01:39:27   people are not talking about,

01:39:29   I mean, maybe if they have retina screens,

01:39:31   that's a developer-facing feature,

01:39:32   but there's so much developer-facing stuff.

01:39:34   It's like, this whole keynote was filled with stuff

01:39:36   that the rest of the week is gonna be filled with.

01:39:39   - Yeah, and there was enough consumer stuff in there too

01:39:43   that it wasn't like a PR disappointment for Apple today.

01:39:47   I mean, I'm sure some site analyst is saying

01:39:51   that Apple's doomed 'cause they didn't release

01:39:53   an iUnicorn or whatever, but the fact is,

01:39:55   I think most of the sensible places

01:39:58   that are usually sensible about these things

01:40:00   will see the value here for everyone,

01:40:02   consumers and developers, and this is just,

01:40:04   this is like, this is just showing

01:40:06   that Apple does have hustle, like the real hustle.

01:40:08   They do have massive engineering resources

01:40:12   that they're not applying to things like street view cars

01:40:16   and everything else, but they are applying

01:40:19   to different problems that we didn't get transit directions

01:40:24   and maps and everything, and that stuff can come in time.

01:40:27   I'm not trying to criticize Google for,

01:40:30   'cause Google has engineering resources to spare,

01:40:34   and it shows with their weird side projects,

01:40:36   but their core stuff is still really good.

01:40:38   this is showing that Apple can not only still compete

01:40:42   on core stuff, just a different set of it,

01:40:45   not only can they still compete,

01:40:46   but they can still compete really well,

01:40:48   like really, really competitively,

01:40:50   and they're raising the bar in so many areas

01:40:53   that other companies and platforms aren't or lag behind in.

01:40:57   And so Apple, I think, is fine.

01:41:01   They're doing great.

01:41:01   - This is an end of a lull, I feel like.

01:41:03   It's like there was a lull where we were making

01:41:06   a lot of demands, but we didn't even talk about

01:41:07   the Appstar changes, but we were making a lot of demands and people wanted things and

01:41:12   Apple wasn't releasing it.

01:41:13   And it's almost like a whole bunch of stuff all came out of the oven at once.

01:41:17   We don't know how long any of those things were baking in there, but the bottom line

01:41:20   is they opened the oven doors and 50 cakes spilled out.

01:41:23   They're all done.

01:41:24   They're all ready now.

01:41:26   And from the outside, it would be like, "Well, they must have heard what we complained about

01:41:30   since iOS 7 and done all this stuff."

01:41:33   So much of the stuff in this keynote must have taken more than a year.

01:41:36   They just all came due at the same time.

01:41:38   And so, again, we haven't even gotten to a new category.

01:41:41   TV forget about that stuff.

01:41:43   This is a lot of like their sort of quiet period of just doing small incremental things.

01:41:48   Arguably it ended with iOS 7 making the big transition, but like, man, a lot of stuff

01:41:53   came out today.

01:41:54   A lot of big things that we wanted for a long time.

01:41:57   Yeah, it was really awesome, and I'm so stoked for the rest of the week.

01:42:01   So thank you so much to Jason Snell and the people at Macworld for letting us steal his

01:42:05   studio for a while. It's extremely kind of you, so thank you. And we have some sponsors

01:42:10   to thank as well.

01:42:11   And thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Warby Parker, Igloo, and Squarespace.

01:42:17   And we'll see you next week.

01:42:19   [music]

01:42:20   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental. Accidental.

01:42:29   It was accidental.

01:42:31   John didn't do any research.

01:42:34   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:42:37   Cause it was accidental.

01:42:39   It was accidental.

01:42:42   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:42:47   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:42:53   ♪ C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

01:42:56   ♪ So that's Casey Liss ♪

01:42:58   ♪ M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

01:43:01   ♪ N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N ♪

01:43:04   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:43:06   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A ♪

01:43:08   ♪ It's accidental, accidental ♪

01:43:12   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:43:14   ♪ Accidental, accidental ♪

01:43:17   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:43:20   - Man, we got a lot to talk about, but yeah,

01:43:22   We will see you next week.

01:43:24   - Thanks guys.

01:43:25   - Or tomorrow on a different podcast, but whatever.

01:43:27   (laughing)

01:43:29   - There's that too.

01:43:30   [BLANK_AUDIO]