66: Boiling A Pretty Big Lake


00:00:00   Remember when Twitter was good?

00:00:02   [

00:00:08   But God, the decisions that make it terrible.

00:00:11   You know what I've noticed lately, by the way?

00:00:13   Maybe I'm just waking up to five years ago, but I've done a couple of searches recently

00:00:19   for hotels, like for WWDC and things like that.

00:00:23   And I was looking at Facebook recently and they were putting in ads for the destinations

00:00:31   I was searching for when I was not even anywhere near Facebook at the time, which is extremely

00:00:38   creepy.

00:00:39   Oh, that's the new internet. That's the modern privacy economy.

00:00:44   So now I'm extremely… So the net effect from that is that if I do look at Facebook,

00:00:49   I look at it and then I log the hell out because I feel like that makes a difference even though

00:00:53   it probably doesn't.

00:00:54   It doesn't, yeah. I mean, this is just like the boil the frog analogy. It's like, you

00:01:00   know, at some point we all say, "Oh, we can't do this. This is too creepy." And

00:01:05   And then, you know, six months later, that's fine.

00:01:07   And then move on to the next creepy thing.

00:01:09   And Facebook and Google and all these companies

00:01:11   that make money based on how creepy they're willing to be

00:01:14   will always get more and more creepy over time

00:01:17   because that's how they will keep making money

00:01:18   and keep staying ahead of each other and the competition

00:01:21   and keep their numbers growing every quarter.

00:01:23   It's a whole business built on

00:01:25   how creepy are you willing to be?

00:01:27   And if you take small enough steps,

00:01:29   it's pretty easy to justify pretty much anything.

00:01:31   - Anyway, you wanna do some follow up?

00:01:34   Actually, since I brought it up, let me interrupt you by saying we have recorded this on Monday

00:01:41   the 19th of May.

00:01:43   And we did that because our schedules over the next couple of weeks are a little wild.

00:01:47   But regardless of when we release this, if anything –

00:01:49   Wacky wild, Casey.

00:01:51   Something like that.

00:01:53   Regardless of when we release this, if something we say sounds really, really stupid because

00:01:57   of some news that has just recently come out, it's because we recorded this on Monday

00:02:01   rather than our normal day.

00:02:03   clearly that's why we sounded stupid and it couldn't possibly be because we actually said

00:02:09   something stupid.

00:02:10   Right, and that would be the only reason why we ever say anything stupid. It's only because

00:02:15   we record the show a couple days before we post it usually. That's the only reason we

00:02:18   ever get anything wrong.

00:02:19   I'm not going to bring up finals. So, tell me about Beats headphones.

00:02:26   So last week I kind of defended Apple's supposed acquisition of Beats, which we still don't

00:02:31   know anything about and we still have no confirmation about, but I defended it basically saying

00:02:37   that Beats is actually a really strong headphone brand and that their headphones, while they

00:02:42   are not what audiophiles want in a headphone, they are very appealing to a lot of people.

00:02:48   And well anyway, so today I actually spent the most time that I've ever spent with

00:02:53   Beats headphones because I had to go back to the Apple store.

00:02:56   Yeah, what's going on?

00:02:57   Is it anything worth sharing?

00:02:58   - No, the iPhone 5 sleep/wake replacement program.

00:03:02   I wanted to get mine replaced because I want to have

00:03:05   a very long life for development testing.

00:03:08   So, anyway, so I went to go pick it up today.

00:03:10   And you know, everything you do at an Apple store these days

00:03:13   this is probably its own topic,

00:03:15   but everything you do at an Apple store these days

00:03:17   takes like 45 minutes.

00:03:19   Because there are certain things that you can't really

00:03:21   make appointments for,

00:03:22   like picking up your phone from repair.

00:03:24   There are other things that you can make appointments for

00:03:26   if you're willing to make an appointment

00:03:27   17 days ahead of time and then you get there and it doesn't really matter that you made the appointment because they are already backed

00:03:32   Up and it still takes 40 minutes before anybody will see you like a doctor

00:03:35   Yeah, and they do this weird thing where?

00:03:38   The you go to the person well first you go to the person at the front door who seems to be doing nothing and they

00:03:44   Tell you to go back to the to you know

00:03:45   Ivan in the back or whatever and go register with Ivan back there with the line of people

00:03:49   so you go in the store and you think you're getting somewhere then there's this big line of people behind some guy with an iPad and

00:03:55   Eventually you get to him and you tell him what you need. All right here stand here at this table and wait and we'll have you

00:04:02   know

00:04:03   Jerry come out and talk to you

00:04:05   And so then then you stand and then you're like, all right. Well

00:04:08   You know five ten minutes in like okay

00:04:10   Can I can I move from this table like what will happen if I go look at the laptops over at that other table or go?

00:04:16   Start playing with the headphones at the table over there

00:04:18   And you kind of have to sit there standing around like waiting and playing this game like oh

00:04:23   "Well, maybe I'll just go over there and listen for my name

00:04:26   "and look for someone walking over there."

00:04:28   It's a really weird experience.

00:04:31   I definitely get the feeling that Apple retail stores

00:04:34   are not only having trouble keeping up

00:04:37   with the customer volume that they get,

00:04:40   but not doing a very good job with the solutions

00:04:43   they've come up with so far,

00:04:45   with creating good experiences with people.

00:04:47   I no longer enjoy going to the Apple store.

00:04:50   It's getting closer and closer to going to the DMV

00:04:53   in experience, quality, and things I would try to avoid.

00:04:57   - But it's really because you're an East Coaster

00:05:00   and we're too, I don't know, organized.

00:05:03   And we like order too much.

00:05:06   - Lines, we like lines.

00:05:07   - Exactly, I don't know.

00:05:09   Apple Stores are, to me, like the epitome of California.

00:05:14   Hey man, it's cool, just wait here for a while.

00:05:18   It'll be awesome.

00:05:19   - Yeah, I've never enjoyed going to Apple Stores.

00:05:22   I want to get in, I want to get out.

00:05:24   And it's just, they make it impossible.

00:05:26   It's like a game, you just have to try to get served.

00:05:29   Good luck.

00:05:30   - Yeah, seriously.

00:05:31   I will say that the Apple Store app

00:05:35   that lets you buy things, that is really nice,

00:05:38   but everything else about the experience

00:05:41   is pretty crummy these days.

00:05:43   - Yeah.

00:05:44   Anyway, so I had some time for my pickup

00:05:47   that's supposed to only take five minutes.

00:05:49   I had probably a good 20 minutes in there,

00:05:52   and I went back to the headphone tables

00:05:55   I mentioned last week.

00:05:56   Figured, well, you know, it was only two tables away

00:05:59   from my designated spot where I was supposed to stand,

00:06:01   but there was nothing.

00:06:02   So I figured, you know, oh well, I'll see what goes on.

00:06:06   And it turns out they did find me, it wasn't a big deal.

00:06:08   So nice top tip for all you life hacks out there.

00:06:11   (laughing)

00:06:13   So I got a chance to try all of the headphones they had.

00:06:16   I made it a point to try every single one,

00:06:18   So it was probably a total of, I don't know, maybe 20 sets, something like that.

00:06:22   And the good thing is this time there was a song on most of the iPods.

00:06:25   There was the Foo Fighters "Walk."

00:06:27   [music]

00:06:34   Which is a great song from a great album from a great band.

00:06:37   And the good thing about this song is that I actually knew it.

00:06:41   Normally I go to the iPods in these stores and I don't know any of the songs on them.

00:06:45   and they're all like, you know, crappy modern pop songs, which makes it very hard for me to judge sound quality.

00:06:50   And I'm always afraid to plug my own iPhone in because it looks like the headphone cable had some kind of security attachment on it as well.

00:06:56   So I never, I'm never willing to plug my own phone in to use my own music, so anyway.

00:07:01   So I was able to compare this song that I know very well. I know how it's supposed to sound on good headphones.

00:07:07   And it's a pretty rockin' song. It has a lot of bass, a lot of everything really.

00:07:12   It's a very all over the spectrum kind of song.

00:07:15   So it should give me a pretty good idea of how things sound.

00:07:19   And I tried every headphone they had that worked,

00:07:23   which is another problem,

00:07:24   about a quarter of them just didn't work.

00:07:26   A lot of them, they weren't plugged in maybe,

00:07:29   or they had noise canceling and the batteries were dead,

00:07:32   or whatever the case, doesn't matter.

00:07:33   Most of them I was able to try.

00:07:36   And the Beats had such an incredibly distinct sound.

00:07:41   And by that I mean it was all bass, like all, all bass.

00:07:44   It was shocking, like, you know, in this Foo Fighters song,

00:07:47   in order to turn, I had to turn it down far enough

00:07:52   that it wasn't blowing at my ears with bass,

00:07:54   but at the volume, at like the highest bass volume

00:07:57   I could tolerate for a sustained period,

00:08:00   you could barely hear the words that were being said.

00:08:03   Like the bass was so strong and the mid-range

00:08:05   was like tucked down under everything,

00:08:07   you could barely hear it.

00:08:09   And it was really strange.

00:08:10   And so I looked at a few other,

00:08:12   I tried a few other sets and verified that

00:08:15   they didn't just have a crappy version of the song,

00:08:16   it wasn't some weird EQ setting in the iPod settings area

00:08:20   or whatever.

00:08:21   It was just that the Beats headphones really sounded bizarre

00:08:24   and I don't know why anybody would want that.

00:08:29   I said last week that people do like it.

00:08:31   And that's true.

00:08:32   I mean, I guess this is a lot of the same opinion I have

00:08:35   when I drink Starbucks coffee.

00:08:36   but man, it was rough.

00:08:40   It was really rough.

00:08:41   And I tried every other set they had too.

00:08:44   And most of them, you know, like I tried all the Bose ones.

00:08:47   They had Bose has this new line called like accurate sound

00:08:50   or something, which was comical

00:08:51   because it doesn't sound accurate at all.

00:08:53   And there, you know, there's all sorts of,

00:08:55   all sorts of like other, you know, luxury brands.

00:08:57   There's Bang and Olufsen, there's B&W and not BMW,

00:09:01   B-N-W and all these other things.

00:09:05   And, oh, please BMW, never make headphones

00:09:07   'cause they would probably be terrible.

00:09:08   That would cause a conflict in my mind.

00:09:10   So generally, I got the opinion,

00:09:16   if you ever go into a Bang & Olufsen mall store,

00:09:19   you get the feeling it's like a Bose store times 10

00:09:26   where they have all these things around

00:09:28   that they'll have this crazy expensive speaker dock,

00:09:30   crazy expensive headphones,

00:09:31   crazy expensive speaker tower fan thing

00:09:34   and all these weird, bizarre, boutique electronics

00:09:38   that are ridiculously expensive and kind of cool

00:09:42   and gimmicky maybe, but probably not worth those prices.

00:09:45   That's how the Apple Store is getting

00:09:49   with all of its audio stuff.

00:09:50   And to some extent it's always been this way,

00:09:52   the Apple Store has never been a place

00:09:53   where you could go buy audio file grade headphones

00:09:55   or anything.

00:09:57   But that is, that's how their entire headphone department is.

00:10:03   It's these like two to $400 boutique, fancy,

00:10:08   fashiony, marketing heavy brands that are not very good

00:10:13   by most measures, but just cost a lot of money

00:10:17   and are fancy.

00:10:19   And I wonder, I hope this is wrong,

00:10:25   but I'm a little scared this might be a future direction

00:10:29   Apple takes or makes a bigger push into with their retail efforts, like becoming this fancy

00:10:37   upscale boutique thing and other things.

00:10:43   Apple has always had the reputation for being expensive and overpriced compared to other

00:10:47   computers and we all know because we're informed on these matters that Apple computers really

00:10:55   aren't that much more expensive than comparably priced other computers.

00:10:58   which doesn't really have the kind of low end

00:11:01   that everyone else will market.

00:11:03   Apple just pretty much has the mid-range

00:11:06   and high end of computers.

00:11:07   In fact, really just the high end these days.

00:11:09   And so Apple computers are not overpriced.

00:11:13   They are expensive, but it's a good value.

00:11:15   You get your money's worth for them.

00:11:17   All the headphones they have in their store

00:11:21   are not that way.

00:11:22   They don't have that same like,

00:11:24   okay, well, they're pricey, but it's worth it.

00:11:27   They're pricey and it's not worth it.

00:11:28   And it is just overpriced, kind of almost sham,

00:11:33   marketing sheep kind of stuff.

00:11:34   All the stuff that other fans accuse us of

00:11:38   for being Apple sheep or fanboys or whatever,

00:11:42   that's all, people who like the kind of headphone brands

00:11:45   that Apple sells, those accusations are a lot more accurate

00:11:49   for that and for the headphone business

00:11:51   that Apple's doing now.

00:11:52   And so I hope that Apple is not going to go further

00:11:54   in that direction because it scares me

00:11:56   because I think that would actually damage

00:11:57   their overall brand because people would start associating

00:12:01   Apple with, even more so, with overpriced stuff

00:12:06   that's not actually worth its price.

00:12:08   And for the rest of their products, that's not the case.

00:12:12   - But people like those headphones though.

00:12:14   People see the value in Beats headphones

00:12:16   because they're cool, right?

00:12:17   Whereas when you show them your Mac, you're like,

00:12:20   "Well, I like it because of such and such

00:12:22   "operating system and build quality and whatever."

00:12:25   and they're like, meh.

00:12:27   But you show them the Beats headphones

00:12:29   and they don't care about the Soundclaw.

00:12:30   They like them 'cause they're cool.

00:12:31   It's like those $100 pair of jeans.

00:12:33   The stores that sell $100 jeans,

00:12:35   try to convince someone who bought a $100 pair of jeans

00:12:37   that your $25 pair of Levi's is just as good.

00:12:41   Like you won't.

00:12:42   It's a different type of mindset of the experience.

00:12:43   So I think the advantage that Beats has

00:12:45   is that you don't have to convince a regular person

00:12:50   that the Beats headphones are worth that.

00:12:52   You do have to try to convince the regular person that your Mac is worth more than the

00:12:57   $300 Dell laptop because they don't see that.

00:12:59   We see the differences, but they don't.

00:13:01   I don't know if that's necessarily true, though.

00:13:04   I think that most people that don't have Macs would probably buy one and spend the hundreds

00:13:15   and hundreds of dollars that they think extra.

00:13:19   If a comparable PC is $500, the equivalent Mac in their minds is $1,000.

00:13:23   I think a lot of people would spend that extra $500, so to speak, but the thing is it's $1,000

00:13:31   they're spending to get this Mac, unlike spending just a couple hundred dollars on a pair of

00:13:36   headphones.

00:13:37   Like a couple hundred dollars is a lot of money, don't get me wrong, but it's a much

00:13:41   more approachable luxury price point in the same way that there are probably many people

00:13:46   that would, if they could, buy either a German luxury car or perhaps an Italian sports car.

00:13:53   But as you keep going up this ladder, the jump from agreeable to really nice is tremendous

00:14:01   and less and less and less affordable.

00:14:04   Think about Air Jordans when we were kids.

00:14:06   In the '80s and '90s, they were $100 in the '80s.

00:14:09   That's easily the amount of Beats headphones that were Air Jordans better than a basketball

00:14:15   plus shoe that costs half as much, probably not,

00:14:17   without the Reebok pump.

00:14:18   - Oh, I wanted some of those so bad.

00:14:20   - Yeah, you know, you wanted them because they're cool.

00:14:22   They got the charge, a Ridiculous Premium for them,

00:14:24   and they were similarly priced to Beats headphones today,

00:14:27   adjusting for inflation, depending on what, you know,

00:14:30   particular model you were getting.

00:14:32   - I have incredibly sad real-time follow-up.

00:14:35   This is the saddest thing I've ever seen.

00:14:37   - Oh, the Beats BMW headphones, yeah.

00:14:39   - Yeah.

00:14:40   There actually is a pair of Beats BMW headphones,

00:14:44   officially made by Beats licensed by BMW.

00:14:47   Wow. I can't even imagine

00:14:50   the level of douchitude required to wear those in public.

00:14:54   Wow. Wow.

00:14:57   But it's just it's just the BMW logo that adds that, though.

00:15:01   Beats by themselves are just Beats.

00:15:02   Once you add the BMW logo to it, it's like that's too much.

00:15:05   Yeah, that's that's rough.

00:15:07   That wow. Well, they have those didn't Porsche Porsche design did like

00:15:12   hard drive enclosure for Lacey at some point.

00:15:15   - Oh, please, Porsche and Ferrari are the worst

00:15:18   when it comes to licensing their logo for use

00:15:22   on everything under the sun.

00:15:23   - But it wasn't a logo, it was like they designed,

00:15:24   I didn't even think it had the Porsche logo on it.

00:15:26   It wasn't like a car type thing.

00:15:27   Porsche has a design studio.

00:15:28   They did a laptop like that too.

00:15:31   They didn't look bad.

00:15:32   Anyway, those Beats headphones, it's just logo branding.

00:15:34   All they did was stamp a BMW thing on there.

00:15:37   - And probably triple the price. (laughs)

00:15:39   - Well, it's on sale right now for only $150.

00:15:42   Whoo, you couldn't pay me to wear those

00:15:44   Before I get miserable as well anything else on beats?

00:15:47   No, I think I think that's it just that the Apple store is a terrible place to buy headphones

00:15:52   I will say by far the most comfortable pair of headphones there

00:15:56   It was night and day difference most comfortable pair of headphones by far was the B&O H6

00:16:03   Those like tan ones with like the white cups and the tan leather ear cups

00:16:08   extremely lightweight, very, very comfortable.

00:16:11   They were in a class of their own for comfort.

00:16:13   Unfortunately, they were like three or $400

00:16:15   and they didn't sound that good.

00:16:17   But those were great.

00:16:19   And all the other ones, like people kept asking,

00:16:21   oh, did you try like the BMW P5 and P7?

00:16:25   Yes, I did.

00:16:26   All the new Bose, the quiet comfort 15,

00:16:28   the new accurate whatever, which is a hilarious name,

00:16:32   all those things.

00:16:33   Everything I tried sounded weird and disappointing to me

00:16:36   in some way or another.

00:16:37   A lot of people have asked me what they should buy

00:16:41   instead of these things.

00:16:43   I don't have one solid answer for that

00:16:46   because it depends on what you're doing.

00:16:48   I guess I'll write it up on my site sometime.

00:16:51   But, and the challenge is that a lot of times

00:16:54   the luxury, these luxury overpriced marketing brands

00:16:58   will be better than the better sounding ones

00:17:00   in some of those factors like comfort or convenience,

00:17:03   noise isolation or like the clicker on,

00:17:07   they'll have the iPhone clicker

00:17:08   where some of the big ones won't.

00:17:10   So it's tough.

00:17:11   I can't just give one solid recommendation.

00:17:14   I would say in general there's five or six solid models.

00:17:19   I disagree with the wire cutter on a number of them,

00:17:21   but for the most part,

00:17:23   there's five or six good solid models.

00:17:25   Like the AKG makes a bunch of good ones,

00:17:27   Sony makes some good ones,

00:17:29   Beyerdynamic or Byerdynamic, however you say it,

00:17:31   I love their stuff.

00:17:32   The DT 770s would be a really good pick, I think,

00:17:35   which Casey's wearing right now.

00:17:37   There's a number of really good ones

00:17:40   that are not that expensive and are very good.

00:17:43   But it depends on do you need them to be portable.

00:17:45   Like for portable, if you're gonna be walking around

00:17:48   and you want them to be folded up and pocketable,

00:17:50   I haven't found anything better than the Sennheiser PX200 IIi

00:17:54   which is unfortunate because it's mediocre

00:17:57   in all other regards except portability,

00:18:00   but it destroys everything else in portability.

00:18:02   Like everything that's not an earbud, it's way better.

00:18:05   But anyway, if you can wear in-ear monitors or earbuds

00:18:10   without a lot of discomfort like what I have,

00:18:12   by all means do that because they're way more practical.

00:18:15   You can fold them up and put them in your pocket

00:18:16   and everything.

00:18:17   I just can't wear those, so you know,

00:18:18   I'm stuck with full-size headphones, but oh well.

00:18:22   Anyway, before we move on to anything else,

00:18:24   we should talk about our first sponsor.

00:18:25   It's a new sponsor this week.

00:18:26   It's called Dash.

00:18:28   It's thedash.com/atp.

00:18:30   That's thedash.com/atp.

00:18:33   Dash is run by a really nice guy

00:18:35   who I met last year, and I can't tell you why,

00:18:39   but he did a really nice thing for me.

00:18:41   Anyway, so this is thedash.com.

00:18:43   Now he's a paying sponsor, and his site is even better now

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00:19:09   So go to thedash.com/atp to see what I mean.

00:19:11   They have a bunch of different widgets pre-built for you.

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00:20:17   Go to thedash.com/atp.

00:20:21   Really great thing here and check it out.

00:20:24   Great guy behind it and I've tried it.

00:20:27   It's pretty fun to play around with

00:20:28   and you can make some pretty cool dashboards.

00:20:30   Thanks a lot to Dash at thedash.com/atp

00:20:33   for sponsoring our show.

00:20:35   - He made dashboards on that page.

00:20:36   I take a look at, he's got one for each one of us.

00:20:39   This looks really nice.

00:20:40   - Yeah, this does look awesome.

00:20:41   - Yeah, yeah, I mean, he's a fan.

00:20:42   He actually bought a few sponsorships.

00:20:44   I think we have him for the next three weeks.

00:20:47   So yeah, he's a fan of the show.

00:20:49   He's been following us for a long time,

00:20:51   and so we thank him very much.

00:20:53   This is really cool stuff.

00:20:54   - You know, I love that for each of these dashboards,

00:20:57   there's an image and for John,

00:20:59   it's I believe the correct toaster.

00:21:01   - That is the correct one.

00:21:02   - I was gonna say from my eyes, it looks right.

00:21:04   - See, attention to detail.

00:21:05   - For mine, it's a white BMW as,

00:21:08   well, that could be silver, but it looks white to me, BMW.

00:21:11   For yours, it's a picture of yourself,

00:21:15   which I just think is a hysterical commentary

00:21:18   on what the three of us think is important.

00:21:21   - Yep, this guy's such a fan, thank you.

00:21:23   (laughs)

00:21:25   He needs to add hypercritical.co to my server status widget.

00:21:28   This looks really nice.

00:21:29   Well, you can try it for free if you want to be public.

00:21:31   Yeah, we should move our download stats to this.

00:21:34   Anyway, all right.

00:21:35   So we have a little bit more follow up about net neutrality.

00:21:40   Yeah, this was just an article today

00:21:41   that reminded me of our past discussions of net neutrality.

00:21:44   It's by-- these guys confuse all the time,

00:21:46   so I wrote his name-- Ben Thompson.

00:21:47   He's a Strategery guy, or Stratechery

00:21:50   if he's given up on Strategery, but I still like Strategery.

00:21:55   It's about net neutrality and it touches on some of the things that we mentioned in the last show

00:22:02   about how there are tech companies that are lobbying Washington for their interests in net

00:22:09   neutrality debate, and then there are the ISPs and all the other companies lobbying on the other side

00:22:13   of this, and they're spending way more money than the tech companies. And this article basically

00:22:16   says that we shouldn't all be as cynical as we are about making changes.

00:22:24   Don't just assume, oh, we're never going to win or whatever.

00:22:27   Because if we do that, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:22:29   And I don't want to ruin the little arc of this article.

00:22:33   It's kind of short, but you should read it.

00:22:34   He describes some of his personal experiences

00:22:36   and how he says, despite his personal experiences,

00:22:39   it's important for all of us in the tech community not to give up on this

00:22:42   and not to be like, well, nothing's ever going to change, so why bother?

00:22:46   And particularly highlights the phenomenon of us doing that well, nothing's gonna change

00:22:51   Why bother and then waiting for some terrible bill to come up or for some terrible thing to be proposed?

00:22:56   And then everyone gets angry all of a sudden on the internet and like fills out these little petition forms

00:23:01   And I do this as well like, you know

00:23:03   just tries to rally people on twitter and

00:23:06   Use hashtags and do whatever you can and write your congressperson and call them

00:23:10   to try to stop whatever is like at the last minute, right and

00:23:14   his comparison is like, that's what we're doing.

00:23:16   And the other people have been lobbying Washington

00:23:18   steadily for 10 years.

00:23:20   And so our strategy of waiting until the last minute

00:23:23   and get all angry, it becomes less and less effective

00:23:26   as everyone gets bored of our anger.

00:23:28   So I mean, I'm actually even a little bit more cynical

00:23:34   than this article in that I think that even if we all

00:23:38   have the right attitude, the bottom line is

00:23:39   if we don't have the same number of zeros

00:23:43   before the decimal point and the amount of money

00:23:45   that we're throwing into Washington,

00:23:46   it doesn't really matter.

00:23:48   So maybe that's the next level of cynicism

00:23:51   that he has to shake me out of,

00:23:52   but I thought it was a good article

00:23:53   and I think everyone should read it.

00:23:55   We'll put it in the show notes.

00:23:56   - All right, so something we didn't get a chance

00:23:59   to talk about last week and perhaps even a week or two

00:24:02   before that is that Nintendo is not having a good time.

00:24:07   - Yeah, this keeps floating around the notes.

00:24:09   I don't know if there's that much to add.

00:24:11   I mean, I think the reason it went in there

00:24:12   because they announced some financial results which were bad and they made some projections

00:24:16   about how many Wii U consoles they think they're going to sell this year and it's not a lot.

00:24:19   And it's causing everyone to think about Nintendo again and I don't think anything has changed other

00:24:27   than us knowing now that the things that Nintendo has tried to do and seems to be trying to do

00:24:36   aren't working or at least they aren't working yet. I wrote something about this on

00:24:40   a hypercritical like a while back about Nintendo in crisis.

00:24:43   I went back and reread that.

00:24:45   And I think it basically that that's still my opinion.

00:24:47   It doesn't nothing has changed.

00:24:49   The Nintendo has the ability to get themselves out of the funk that they're in

00:24:54   because the whole thing was based on a premise that if

00:24:57   if there's no longer a market for devices that mostly play games,

00:25:01   Nintendo is screwed.

00:25:01   But if there is a market for devices that mostly play games,

00:25:04   then they have a chance.

00:25:06   And so there definitely is a market for things that just play games

00:25:09   because the PlayStation 4 is selling like crazy, and Xbox One is selling pretty well

00:25:13   as well, although they're kind of changing their strategy to try to keep up with the

00:25:17   PlayStation 4. And even the 3DS isn't doing that terribly, but the Wii U is doing terribly.

00:25:22   But anyway, the point is that it's not as if no one is buying things that mostly play

00:25:26   games. People are still buying them, it's still a big market, Nintendo has the ability

00:25:30   to get themselves out of their current crisis, they're just not doing it. So that was just

00:25:35   a you know, not necessary, but not sufficient again.

00:25:38   But it's a precondition for them getting out.

00:25:40   And so the question is, what do they do at this point?

00:25:44   Do they just keep trying to release games for the Wii U

00:25:47   and hope that some game catches on and people buy them like the Wii U

00:25:49   was kind of in the classic death spiral where they don't sell a lot of consoles,

00:25:54   which means the third party developers aren't going to bother making a game

00:25:58   games for it, because even if you sold to 100 percent of Wii U owners,

00:26:02   which you're never going to do, there would still be a small number.

00:26:05   And because there's no third-party games people have less and less reason to buy a Wii U and just goes down down down

00:26:10   So I don't know what they can or should do Mario Kart 8 is coming out soon. Mario Kart 8 is getting great reviews

00:26:16   Everyone says it's a great game. Is that gonna sell more Wii U consoles?

00:26:20   Probably not. I mean

00:26:23   It's the same choice they had before either make games that make people buy Wii U consoles

00:26:27   And if you if third parties won't do it

00:26:29   You got to do it yourself or figure out what your next thing is

00:26:31   I think Nintendo has enough money and stamina and corporate will to weather the storm of the terrible

00:26:36   Wii U sales and figure out what they're gonna do next and hopefully

00:26:39   Hopefully by the time they make their next move with either the next console or revision of the Wii U or whatever

00:26:44   We haven't passed through the period of time during which game mostly or game only hardware is something that people want to buy

00:26:50   So if you were Nintendo, what would you do? Can I go back in time to have a time machine or not?

00:26:58   If you took over today and you had enough political power

00:27:02   To to push through any change or initiative you you want it to what would you do?

00:27:06   I would start working on my next console which will be comparable in power to the

00:27:11   Competitive consoles and I would do basically what Sony did this generation

00:27:15   Which is look at what you did in the past generation and what everyone hated you for?

00:27:17   What the developers are pissed off at you about what their pyres pissed off with you about get all those people in the room

00:27:22   Have them all tell you what what you did wrong and how how your actions have hurt them

00:27:26   and then sort of like an intervention and then take that information and fix all those mistakes.

00:27:31   Sony did an amazing job with the PlayStation 4 and the PlayStation 3 had all sorts of problems. It was late,

00:27:37   it was expensive, it was a weird architecture,

00:27:39   third parties didn't like it,

00:27:41   you know, and so for the PlayStation 4 they brought all those people together and said just tell us what do you think we should do?

00:27:46   And they listened to them.

00:27:48   They actually listened, you know, instead of being like, oh, we know what the best thing is and the place,

00:27:51   that's one of the reasons the PlayStation 4 is doing so much better. It was relatively inexpensive,

00:27:56   They didn't commit lots of money to a motion control accessory of dubious value like Microsoft did.

00:28:01   They made the architecture much nicer for developers. They worked on their dev tools.

00:28:08   They were nicer to third parties and their reward is they're the clear leader in this generation of

00:28:13   consoles. So Nintendo needs a console that is on the same hardware level as whatever its competitors

00:28:20   are going to be. That's the price of entry where you can say, "Okay, at the very least

00:28:24   we can convince EA to give us, you know, the next iterations of all its games.

00:28:28   And like, you know, like make it make it a no brainer for people to port to you.

00:28:31   Like, well, we're making a cross platform game.

00:28:34   It's easy enough to port it to whatever the new Xbox is, whatever

00:28:37   the new PlayStation is and whatever Nintendo's console is.

00:28:40   And for two generations now, they've been out of that conversation

00:28:43   and they're getting farther and farther out of the conversation.

00:28:45   Whenever you're going to make a new game, you're going to be like,

00:28:46   well, we're going to make it for Microsoft console, Sony console.

00:28:49   And then maybe like a year later, we'll think about making some terrible cut

00:28:52   down port to go on Nintendo's console.

00:28:54   Last generation they didn't need the third party support because of the the magic of the Wii-mote and waggling your wrists and Wii Sports and all that good stuff.

00:29:01   This generation they didn't pull it off, their novelty with the gamepad was not enough to get people on board and they're in sort of a death spiral.

00:29:08   So the next generation they can't, they got to make competitive hardware. And if they can't make competitive hardware, this isn't optional for them.

00:29:13   They said, "Oh, they should get out of the hardware business." If they can't make competitive hardware and decide they're not going to be in the hardware business,

00:29:18   I guess they should partner with somebody like this is not my first choice, but I think about this a lot

00:29:24   It's like if this is not in Nintendo's wheelhouse to ever do hardware anymore

00:29:28   You know go over to Sony and say we really like what you've done with your hardware

00:29:32   How would you like it if we teamed up on the next console and made sort of a joint Sony Nintendo console worth into that?

00:29:38   Nintendo had some influence on the hardware and it was you know

00:29:41   Amazing great hardware that had lots of power was inexpensive and innovative and maybe had a VR headset or whatever

00:29:48   And then all the Nintendo franchises will be exclusively on that console

00:29:51   Again, I don't put that as my first choice

00:29:54   But I spend a lot of time thinking about it because I I look at the PlayStation 4 and I say

00:29:57   How great would it be if I knew that?

00:29:59   Nintendo was right now working on a Zelda game for that console and they're not they're working on it for the Wii U which is

00:30:04   Gonna be I'll enjoy it as well and it'll be interesting

00:30:06   but it's kind of a shame that they're gonna be that constrained when the

00:30:11   Contemporary consoles have so much more power so that's what I do

00:30:15   I would get working on the next console and make it competitive.

00:30:18   So if Nintendo gets in a really bad place, they continue marching down the hardware

00:30:25   path and that continues to go poorly.

00:30:28   And now they're legitimately starting to, to, you know, circle the drain.

00:30:32   Does Apple buy them?

00:30:34   No, I hope that that would be like terrible.

00:30:36   I, I would not want Apple to buy them because Apple doesn't, Apple slot into games.

00:30:41   But what if they want to be?

00:30:43   I don't know if you can you know, it's it's part it's either part of your culture or it's not.

00:30:48   I'm not going to say that Apple doesn't get games, but.

00:30:50   You know, it's it's like the what he called the terrible book from the 90s,

00:30:54   he's just not that into you. Apple, that's one of the notes in my notes,

00:30:59   that Apple and games, he's just not that into you like they're doing. Apple's just not that

00:31:03   into games like that. They like them on their platform, the fun and everything.

00:31:06   But all the other gaming companies, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo.

00:31:11   have people in positions of power who are really into games, who love games, who live and breathe

00:31:16   games. Like that is the same thing with any movie studio. Yeah, there's going to be a bunch of

00:31:20   bureaucrats and suits at movie studios, but there's also going to be people who love movies and movie

00:31:24   studios. You need to have that. Not everybody. There's going to be some stuff shirts and everything

00:31:28   to it. You need to have people. Same thing with car companies, the car guys who just love cars.

00:31:33   You absolutely need to have them. And thus far, I'm not convinced there is anyone high up in any

00:31:38   any position of power that has that passion for games at Apple, which is fine.

00:31:41   Like, Apple doesn't have to be a game company, but I would not want them to buy Nintendo.

00:31:45   Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that not only is Apple not caring about games, I don't think

00:31:53   they respect games. Like, I said this before a long time ago, so I'll just go over the quick

00:31:58   version, but basically, if you look at Apple's history of how they treat games on their platforms,

00:32:05   both on the Mac and on iOS.

00:32:08   On the Mac they basically said,

00:32:10   "Eh, we're never gonna do anything

00:32:11   "to really make games easier or possible

00:32:13   "to bring in this platform in a competitive way."

00:32:15   On iOS, games came there anyway for other reasons

00:32:19   and Apple found themselves in the position

00:32:21   of all of a sudden being in a really pretty powerful

00:32:26   and pretty important position in the gaming world

00:32:29   almost accidentally.

00:32:31   And the way they've treated it since then

00:32:32   has really just been kind of patronizing.

00:32:35   Like Game Center is one of the best examples of this.

00:32:37   And just like the mediocrity that Game Center is,

00:32:42   together with the design that it had at first,

00:32:45   does it still look like that in 7 or do they?

00:32:47   - It's in 7 it's got these bubbles and stuff.

00:32:49   Like every game that I have in a Game Center integration,

00:32:52   it makes it worse.

00:32:53   Like when I play Letterpress,

00:32:55   I'll get a notification in Letterpress that someone's moved,

00:32:58   and then I will, you know, swipe

00:33:00   and Letterpress will be the front most app.

00:33:02   I'm not swiping on the notification, I'm just swiping to reveal letterpress as the frontmost

00:33:05   app. And I can sit there and stare at it and like, oh, well, it said there was a move,

00:33:09   but I don't see it yet. And my solution is always go, you know, hit the home button,

00:33:13   then go back into letterpress. Then maybe it will load the move. Like it's stuff like that. It's like

00:33:17   no progress indication, long waiting times, a notification comes through, but the game doesn't

00:33:22   know about it yet. Like what? I mean, it's, it's great that Lauren didn't have to write all this

00:33:27   code himself and it probably really helped him get out a game that was popular. And so it's good for

00:33:31   for developers, but as a player,

00:33:33   I hate it when the little Game Center banner comes down

00:33:35   and causes a hitch in frame rate.

00:33:37   I hate it when Game Center tells me there's a move,

00:33:39   but I launch the game and it doesn't show the move

00:33:40   immediately and I have no progress indication.

00:33:42   And there's so many games with integration like this

00:33:44   that I can't say, well, it's just because that developer

00:33:46   didn't integrate with Game Center properly.

00:33:48   It just, it makes games worse.

00:33:51   - Yeah, it's always been, it's been like this,

00:33:54   I got the feeling that Steve Jobs might have,

00:33:56   this might have been like a Steve thing where

00:33:59   they would use like cheesiness and kitsch to kind of patronize and like just just pay lip service to

00:34:09   things they didn't really care about that that they were being forced to address in some way

00:34:15   you know or you know for some reason like they would try to appropriate you know the success

00:34:20   of gaming to do their oh let's this fun little game center like like you can kind of tell like

00:34:27   Not only was their heart not in, but they don't really like it.

00:34:29   And it just, it, I don't know, it resulted in this attitude that was very clearly like,

00:34:39   obviously Steve doesn't give a crap about games and that shows in the product, right? And it seems

00:34:46   in all the changes in Apple, you know, in the last few years, I haven't seen anything regarding

00:34:52   games change for the better? I think they're trying. It's just that they don't know the

00:34:57   right things to do. It would be as if the music application or whatever, the thing that you play

00:35:02   music on your iOS device, as if it had a theme like a music room and there was little batons

00:35:07   for conducting and there was little musical staffs and a little guy with a tuxedo as the conductor.

00:35:19   They understand it so much more see like it's it's not just the theme

00:35:22   it's the idea that there needs to be this kind of window dressing like that games are a

00:35:27   Diversion and like almost every app is more serious the photo app is more serious

00:35:31   They're like they understand like photos are an important thing and we weren't we're not gonna sort of

00:35:35   Put like a weird photo theme on there

00:35:38   I mean iOS 7 has helped with that a lot like the old ones were a little bit more

00:35:41   Skeuomorphic and everything, but it's just the whole idea that gaming as a realm

00:35:45   Needs to have some different treatment because games are this other thing and no one is really seriously into game

00:35:51   Whereas music is like, oh you're really into music. We would never want to screw up

00:35:55   We want to show the album art big we want to have a nice efficient application because music is important

00:36:00   And you want it to be powerful and have you know?

00:36:02   increase the capability so you to get your music anywhere enjoy it and show people enjoying it and

00:36:07   Games, it's like I mean there are casual gaming type of company. So when they show people playing games, they're like

00:36:14   you know, shaking their iPod touch around and some kid is playing some little game.

00:36:17   "Wow, look at that car, vroom, vroom!" But Game Center itself doesn't acknowledge how serious

00:36:23   and what an important part of people's lives. And for that matter, I think iBooks kind of

00:36:27   doesn't acknowledge how important books are in people's lives because they're kind of like,

00:36:30   a little bit of the old version of iBooks anyway, a little bit of the,

00:36:34   "You have to feel like you're in an old, musty library, otherwise books don't count."

00:36:38   [Laughter]

00:36:38   Well, and you know, with Game Center, it's very much about compartmentalization. It's like,

00:36:43   "Let's take this world of games that's happening all around us accidentally, and we're gonna

00:36:49   clean all this mess up and just kind of shove it in this drawer over here. All you game

00:36:53   things, you can stay in here. We don't really want you to seep out." Same thing with Newsstand.

00:36:58   Newsstand is exactly in the same position, if not even worse, because Apple's like, "Okay,

00:37:05   well we have this, we will benefit if magazine and newspaper people make their apps here

00:37:11   instead of making websites and we'll benefit from that.

00:37:14   And we want it to look good for our platform.

00:37:18   So we're gonna make this little newsstand area,

00:37:20   exactly the same thing, like this cheesy, kitschy,

00:37:24   condescending skeuomorphism that started out

00:37:27   in previous versions and then in 7,

00:37:30   it really didn't get a lot better.

00:37:32   Actually, in many ways, a newsstand is significantly worse

00:37:35   than iOS 7 and there's no more wooden shelves.

00:37:40   but now it's even more invisible

00:37:44   and there's all sorts of other problems with it.

00:37:47   And it's like Apple just takes the things

00:37:51   that they don't wanna really see,

00:37:52   that they don't want to be prominent

00:37:55   and creates areas for them to be segregated

00:37:58   and tucked away and hidden.

00:38:00   Because to them, it's like this is this sloppy, dirty,

00:38:04   juvenile or evil world of games or magazines respectively.

00:38:09   Yeah, and like iOS is not, it's a platform for certain kinds of games, but it's not for

00:38:15   the kinds of games that Nintendo does well, and those are the types of games I like to

00:38:19   play.

00:38:20   Like, you know, console games, handheld games, games that are really deep, really rich, that

00:38:24   have physical controls, that, you know, and VR games may be a separate thing entirely,

00:38:28   because that's, the industry is experimenting with VR now, and Sony's got their own headset

00:38:32   coming out, Nintendo could possibly do something interesting in that direction, we don't know

00:38:37   how well that's going to work out.

00:38:41   Is Apple going to have headset support for its iOS devices?

00:38:44   Maybe they will.

00:38:45   Maybe that'll be the way games get into it.

00:38:47   But for now, all iOS games are things where you tilt your device or you touch your screen.

00:38:52   And that is a fairly narrow range of things.

00:38:55   And the games that I've traditionally done on Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft platforms

00:38:59   are still really popular.

00:39:00   Just look at the sales numbers for the PlayStation 4 and the Xbox One.

00:39:03   People still want to play them, and you can't play them on iOS devices.

00:39:06   So it's like, why should Apple be interested in getting that serious about games when it

00:39:13   doesn't have a hardware platform you can play them on?

00:39:15   I mean, someday if they wake up and decide to turn Apple TV into a game console, maybe

00:39:18   then we'll have something going on there, but that hasn't happened so far.

00:39:21   Well, even like last year, they added the game controller framework to iOS 7, which

00:39:28   lets other it's like they could have just like gone the extra step, made their own official

00:39:33   controller attachment for their iPhones or iPod touches.

00:39:37   Why didn't they do that?

00:39:39   And the answer I think is because they just don't care that much or they weren't that

00:39:42   confident in the idea or whatever the case may be.

00:39:44   They didn't want to bother with that.

00:39:45   They didn't want to tarnish their product line with this cheesy little game controller

00:39:49   attachment.

00:39:50   They want, "Okay, we will make an API that will of course, if you want to make your own,

00:39:56   you can and of course you'll have to pay us to make your own."

00:40:00   But that's another thing entirely.

00:40:03   And of course the reality which anybody could have told them

00:40:07   anybody who has ever played video games ever in their life

00:40:11   could have told them if the first party vendor

00:40:14   doesn't have like an official hardware add-on

00:40:18   nobody will buy it.

00:40:19   Even official hardware add-ons like the Kinect

00:40:21   like usually those fail.

00:40:24   Like you know there was like this,

00:40:26   like we talked about a few episodes ago

00:40:28   the 32X, the Sega CD, the Jaguar CD attachment,

00:40:32   the TurboGrafx CD attachment,

00:40:33   all these hardware add-on things in the old console world

00:40:38   that almost all failed.

00:40:40   - Well, not all of them.

00:40:41   - I said almost.

00:40:42   - What was the memory pack for the Nintendo 64?

00:40:44   I forget what that was.

00:40:45   - Well, that's 'cause it came with Perfect Dark.

00:40:46   - Yeah, because they bundled it with a game, yeah.

00:40:49   And the same thing with the Rumble pack.

00:40:50   They bundled with Star Fox.

00:40:52   But even the Kinect, the original Kinect,

00:40:57   that had a pretty good sell-through for a peripheral.

00:41:00   People made games that supported the Kinect,

00:41:02   which is fairly unprecedented.

00:41:05   - Yeah, that was remarkable and very unusual.

00:41:07   - But it was certain dance games and stuff

00:41:09   that you couldn't do without the Kinect.

00:41:11   They weren't bundled with the Kinect.

00:41:12   You'd have to buy the Kinect and buy that.

00:41:14   And a lot of people bought,

00:41:15   I think Apple would be overjoyed if,

00:41:18   well, I don't know if they would be overjoyed,

00:41:19   but anyway, it would be,

00:41:20   have you ever seen anyone using one of those controllers

00:41:23   attached to an iOS OS?

00:41:24   I've still never seen one in the wild.

00:41:26   And so that makes me think that they're not selling a lot of those devices, and let alone

00:41:30   games that require them or take advantage of them.

00:41:33   Like none of those are really, like, I don't even know if it's financially feasible to

00:41:37   make a high quality game and say, "Oh, by the way, to play this game you need to have

00:41:41   a controller accessory."

00:41:43   And then the other problem is, the economics of the App Store are such that, I mean, there's

00:41:48   lots of, that could be a whole show of discussing the problems of economics in the App Store

00:41:52   for developers.

00:41:54   But in this particular area, one of the problems is if you make a game that requires a game

00:41:59   pad, you've cut down your market size so substantially that, you know, suppose 1% of

00:42:06   iPhones sold in the past year, you know, 1% of those also bought game pads.

00:42:11   That's probably extremely optimistic.

00:42:13   I bet the number is nowhere near that.

00:42:14   But let's say it was 1%.

00:42:16   Well, that means you're also cutting your audience down, you know, by 99% by making

00:42:20   game that requires it in a market where the only way to make any money at all is through

00:42:25   massive volume. That's a terrible, it's just a terrible situation. It's never going to

00:42:31   catch on.

00:42:32   That reminds me of the other story that I alluded to earlier. I don't know if you guys

00:42:34   heard about that. Microsoft is unbundling, making a version of the Xbox One that you

00:42:38   can buy without the Kinect 2.

00:42:40   Yeah, I'd heard that.

00:42:42   Yeah, and that's kind of a shame, but it's kind of, I mean, in the face of Sony's sales,

00:42:50   I guess they felt like they had to do something.

00:42:51   I believe they're still keeping the SKUs

00:42:53   that have it bundled,

00:42:54   but they want to make a cheaper one without it.

00:42:55   Bottom line is not a lot of games are coming out

00:42:59   that require the Kinect that are compelling enough

00:43:04   for someone to want to pay an extra $100 for the console.

00:43:06   So they're like, all right, well, here's a version.

00:43:08   We'll shave some money off the price.

00:43:10   You don't have to buy the Kinect with it.

00:43:12   And it's kind of a shame because I think the Kinect

00:43:15   was an interesting idea.

00:43:17   I think the second version of it

00:43:18   is way better than the first.

00:43:19   and you could do interesting things with it.

00:43:22   It's just that because they're selling

00:43:25   so much fewer consoles than Sony is,

00:43:30   they feel like they have to make this move.

00:43:32   And it's really like, I don't know how I feel about it

00:43:35   because in many respects,

00:43:37   like if they had just launched in every country,

00:43:39   instead of launching in like,

00:43:41   Sony's in way more countries than there.

00:43:42   I think Microsoft's in like 13

00:43:44   and Sony's in like 50 or something like that.

00:43:47   If their rollouts have been equal geographically,

00:43:49   Maybe the race would have been closer

00:43:51   in terms of sales numbers,

00:43:53   and they could have stayed the course,

00:43:54   but instead, because they're behind,

00:43:56   they want to have a way to catch up.

00:43:58   But once you open that door,

00:43:59   once you say that it's possible

00:44:00   that there's any Xbox One out there without the Kinect,

00:44:03   forget about it in this generation,

00:44:04   having some game that someone's gonna put tons

00:44:06   and tons of money behind,

00:44:08   that's gonna be like a tractor that pulls,

00:44:10   that shows everyone how amazing the Kinect is,

00:44:11   because like Marco said, now all of a sudden,

00:44:14   you have to look at the ratios.

00:44:15   It used to be, I could sell into 100% of the Xbox One market

00:44:18   if I made a Kinect game.

00:44:19   And now it's like, oh, it's 99%, 98%, 97%.

00:44:22   Like, depending on how that SKU sells without the Kinect,

00:44:24   the number's probably just gonna go down and down.

00:44:27   - And also, in the console world, it's very important,

00:44:29   as you said earlier, to be cross-platform.

00:44:30   You know, with these games having such massive budgets

00:44:33   to be competitive, if you can't be on PlayStation and Xbox,

00:44:38   it's gonna hurt pretty big time.

00:44:39   You know, that's gonna hurt a lot.

00:44:41   - Well, the Kinect games are always trying

00:44:43   to be the exclusives.

00:44:44   Like, you know, yeah, of course you can't port the same

00:44:46   because no one else has the amazing Kinect.

00:44:47   And same thing with Sony with VR.

00:44:49   If Microsoft doesn't have a VR headset and Sony does, Sony's got to get people to make

00:44:54   VR games or ports, VR ports of games, and those are not going to be able to be on the

00:44:58   Microsoft console.

00:44:59   And Sony, if you sell, again, if you sell the most hardware, you're in the power position.

00:45:02   It's like, who cares if you can put your game on Microsoft or Nintendo's consoles?

00:45:06   We have sold X number of million consoles, you're doing fine.

00:45:11   Nintendo can't even get those people to answer their calls.

00:45:14   And Microsoft, it tries to make that same argument for the Kinect.

00:45:17   People go like, we've looked at how well Kinect games sell

00:45:19   in the previous generation and the current one.

00:45:22   And it's not just about addressable market.

00:45:24   It's about the fact that no one has found a way to make a game

00:45:27   that will sell millions of copies for, you know, the Kinect.

00:45:30   Like, I hope Microsoft keeps trying.

00:45:32   I hope what they've done can combine with VR stuff,

00:45:35   can combine with the game pad stuff that Nintendo's done.

00:45:38   Like there is the making of some great next generation gaming experiences

00:45:43   down the line with all the technology that everyone has experimented with in the past two generations.

00:45:48   So Marco, what else is pretty neat these days?

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00:47:51   Is it, am I supposed to pronounce AOL as like Aol

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00:48:53   - So we should probably talk about things

00:48:57   that are probably gonna happen during WWDC.

00:49:01   - Think there's gonna be a keynote?

00:49:03   - There's gonna be a keynote, there's gonna be Odwalla,

00:49:06   Marco's gonna complain about the fact that Odwalla has bananas in almost all of them.

00:49:09   Now, do you think they're gonna bring back my flavor?

00:49:12   All I care about is that there's Mango Tango.

00:49:14   If there's Mango Tango, I'm happy.

00:49:16   That's all I care about.

00:49:18   We had a very interesting email a little over ten days ago, and it was an anonymous email

00:49:25   that went via the feedback form.

00:49:28   And the message is, "iOS 8 wishlist."

00:49:32   Yes.

00:49:33   And then there's a series of items.

00:49:35   and a series of items. This person did not specify who they are, didn't specify

00:49:42   if they're knowledgeable about anything, didn't specify any really anything at

00:49:48   all other than to say that they need to be anonymous. For now. It said "Anon for

00:49:53   now." So it basically has no credibility. However, I think it's an interesting list.

00:49:58   Agreed. And so what I thought I'd do is kind of start calling out the items on

00:50:04   this list and we'll talk about the ones that we think are worth talking about and then

00:50:10   we'll just blow by the ones that we don't think are very interesting.

00:50:15   So with that in mind, in the yes column, health book, monitor heart rate, VO2 level.

00:50:22   I'm not sure why it's VO2.

00:50:24   I'm assuming that's oxygen level?

00:50:25   Yeah, is that like a virtual oxygen?

00:50:27   Unless it was a fat-fingered CO2 level.

00:50:30   Anyway, hydration level, sleep, and steps.

00:50:34   What do we think?

00:50:35   - I mean, I think there's been enough smoke

00:50:37   around the health book thing that it's probably correct.

00:50:41   - I agree.

00:50:42   - You know, the details of which things are included,

00:50:44   I mean, steps and sleep can both be tracked by motion,

00:50:47   that's easy, you know, hydration,

00:50:49   hydration O2 and heart rate,

00:50:51   that would require some kind of extra sensor

00:50:53   that we don't know about yet,

00:50:54   so that's probably a question mark or a maybe.

00:50:56   - No, we know about it, it's gonna be the earbuds.

00:50:59   No, that was fake.

00:51:01   I know, I know, I'm kidding.

00:51:02   As opposed to this email, which is impeccably sourced

00:51:05   as a random person who typed things into a feedback form.

00:51:08   Yeah, exactly.

00:51:10   For the record, I was kidding.

00:51:11   I knew that was fake.

00:51:12   But yes, I would say the health book thing is plausible.

00:51:14   The details of it we don't really know for sure,

00:51:16   but it's certainly plausible.

00:51:18   Oh, we didn't even talk about that in the Nintendo thing,

00:51:20   how one of their strategies to get them out of their funk

00:51:21   was going to be health-related apps, which seems to be--

00:51:25   everyone seems to be doing this these days, the fact

00:51:27   that we have the technology, the networking, and the last piece we need is the sensors

00:51:32   and Fitbit has been sort of the spearhead into this, into health monitoring for individuals.

00:51:37   It seems to be reasonably popular and have positive results for people, so Apple getting

00:51:42   into it doesn't surprise me.

00:51:43   And of course, we've all seen all the screenshots of the health book looking app and stuff.

00:51:49   This is just an iOS 8 wish list, so we can't talk about whether Apple's going to have any

00:51:55   any devices like this where they're gonna launch this

00:51:58   kind of like the M7 without any accompanying hardware.

00:52:02   It's like, oh, well, our phone has this,

00:52:03   then these new APIs and so on and so forth,

00:52:05   and then third parties will make sensors for it,

00:52:07   or is it gonna integrate with the iWatch later, or, you know.

00:52:11   But I think it's a pretty sure bet

00:52:13   that some health monitoring stuff

00:52:15   is gonna be in iOS 8 software-wise.

00:52:18   - I agree, and I'm very curious to see what sensors,

00:52:23   if any, will be provided for this.

00:52:24   By the way, real time follow up, V02 is apparently aerobic capacity.

00:52:29   Thank you KJ Healey, friend of the show.

00:52:31   It's for volume, right?

00:52:33   So thanks for that KJ Healey.

00:52:36   Next, transit in the maps app, in the Apple Maps app.

00:52:40   I would suspect this would be something they would do because they got dinged on it or

00:52:47   they continually get dinged on it.

00:52:48   But I think we talked about, maybe it wasn't us, but somebody talked about it on one of

00:52:51   the podcast I listen to, about how hard that is.

00:52:55   Because to normalize all this disparate data

00:52:57   across gazillion cities across the planet

00:53:00   is not an easy task.

00:53:01   And given that Apple does so well

00:53:03   with normalizing all the data on their map themselves,

00:53:06   I'm not really too confident they're gonna get this right.

00:53:09   But it seems plausible.

00:53:12   - I think that's something that they want to do,

00:53:13   whether they're ready in time.

00:53:15   Like I think they're more cautious

00:53:16   about rolling out something half-baked at this point.

00:53:18   But-- - Especially in Maps.

00:53:19   - Yeah, on the maps effort, Apple seems committed

00:53:23   and they did not have a good initial showing.

00:53:26   And hopefully they're learning that the only way to do this

00:53:29   is to do what Google does.

00:53:31   You're not boiling the ocean,

00:53:32   but you're boiling a pretty darn big lake.

00:53:34   And that's what they have to end up doing.

00:53:35   You gotta put bodies in the ground.

00:53:37   You gotta put resources towards this.

00:53:40   It's a super big pain.

00:53:42   You can't half-ass it.

00:53:43   You gotta, there's no shortcut.

00:53:46   So, and the transit is like, oh, the shortcut will be

00:53:49   that we'll just have third parties do it.

00:53:50   It's a third party opportunity.

00:53:51   And people are like, no, we don't like that shortcut.

00:53:54   Google has transit, you don't, you suck.

00:53:57   So I really hope that this is true

00:54:01   that they're working on transit.

00:54:03   As for whether it's ready in time for a WOEC announcement,

00:54:07   I'm not sure.

00:54:08   - Yeah, all right, on device Siri.

00:54:11   - See that, I would love to see that.

00:54:12   So I assume what this means is that the dictation

00:54:16   would take place on the device,

00:54:18   which Android and Windows Phone already do,

00:54:21   and so do Macs, actually,

00:54:23   and just not iOS devices yet, right?

00:54:25   There's still no way to do it on iOS?

00:54:26   - That's right as far as I know.

00:54:28   However, isn't the download on OS X

00:54:30   something like a little shy of a gig?

00:54:32   - Yeah, it's like 800 megs, something like that.

00:54:34   - So given that Apple is ridiculously obsessed

00:54:37   with continuing to offer eight and 16 gig devices, really?

00:54:42   I mean, it seems like that'd be a lot of space

00:54:45   to take up on some devices

00:54:46   that really don't have enough space.

00:54:48   - Well, it would probably just be an optional download then,

00:54:50   just like it is on Mac.

00:54:52   'Cause how many people actually would care enough

00:54:55   to use that?

00:54:56   Probably a minority, but for those people,

00:54:59   it would be really nice to have.

00:55:00   - They're gonna need to concentrate on getting

00:55:02   their server-side implementation up to snuff

00:55:05   before worrying about adding another implementation

00:55:07   to the mix.

00:55:08   Like, because the problem with Siri is not that,

00:55:11   oh, it does everything over the network,

00:55:12   because for phone people,

00:55:13   like the size of data that it's transferring

00:55:16   is not that big, it's just the server's gotta be responsive.

00:55:18   They have to be available, they have to respond quickly.

00:55:20   You can't talk, record something, send it to the server,

00:55:24   wait, and get a response to say,

00:55:25   "Oh yeah, forget it, we couldn't talk to the server.

00:55:27   "Sorry about that, try again later."

00:55:29   Like that is unacceptable.

00:55:30   And so I don't think that experience of going to a server,

00:55:33   it would be all that terrible

00:55:35   if it just worked reliably and quickly.

00:55:37   And so hopefully that's where

00:55:38   they're concentrating their effort.

00:55:39   I don't use Siri enough to know

00:55:41   whether it's getting worse or better or whatever,

00:55:42   but anytime that fails for one of those,

00:55:45   "Yeah, you said a bunch of stuff and we recorded it,

00:55:47   but we couldn't make connect the dots."

00:55:49   "Yeah, I know you have a net connection.

00:55:51   It just didn't work out, sorry."

00:55:53   Anytime that happens, it's bogus.

00:55:54   And I'm not ready for them to say,

00:55:58   "Well, actually we have a second implementation

00:55:59   that's all on device and you don't have to worry

00:56:01   about the network.

00:56:02   You just have to worry about memory usage and storage area

00:56:07   and whether this on device thing works."

00:56:08   And again, it's another area where Google has on device

00:56:12   stuff working and their servers respond faster.

00:56:14   So this list reads more like a list of areas

00:56:18   where Apple needs to improve.

00:56:19   I guess it's a wishlist.

00:56:20   Like every area where they need to improve,

00:56:22   they should improve in all those areas.

00:56:24   But I don't see them going for on-device Siri.

00:56:29   I would rather see them address the server-side stuff

00:56:33   because I don't think it's that crazy for phones anyway,

00:56:36   to just say, "Yes, it's all server-side.

00:56:37   Don't worry about it.

00:56:38   We'll get the data through.

00:56:40   It's not a lot of data.

00:56:41   We'll just make sure our servers are all available and fast."

00:56:44   - Yeah, I mean, certainly that would be nice.

00:56:45   I mean, I would prefer they give us both, really.

00:56:48   Having on-device dictation, like, you know,

00:56:51   have the servers still do the smarts of like,

00:56:55   okay, we know what you said,

00:56:57   but then what do you mean by that?

00:56:58   Like, that's obviously an area

00:57:00   where the server-side infrastructure could benefit a lot

00:57:02   from continuing to be server-side with both resources

00:57:06   and with, you know, just updating the information

00:57:08   that it has and learning and stuff like that.

00:57:11   You know, that's very much like a big data problem.

00:57:13   they need big data to do it.

00:57:14   The actual dictation though,

00:57:18   while dictation does benefit from the big data approach,

00:57:21   you can also do a pretty good job

00:57:23   just having something local,

00:57:24   as you know by using all the Dragon stuff.

00:57:27   - Yeah, you need more RAM for that

00:57:28   as I think Casey pointed out.

00:57:29   Like that's hardware wise,

00:57:32   I mean the excuse has always been,

00:57:33   well more RAM requires more power

00:57:35   and it's a battery thing and blah, blah, blah,

00:57:37   but jeez, I mean forget about the storage

00:57:39   which we've already complained about,

00:57:40   16, 32, 64, eternal trinity.

00:57:44   You gotta get more RAM.

00:57:45   You gotta get more RAM on these devices.

00:57:47   You got like people, it's just, it's unacceptable.

00:57:49   One gigabyte is not enough.

00:57:51   And so like having more RAM,

00:57:53   and if they can deal with the battery stuff,

00:57:55   I think that would open the door for on-device,

00:57:57   what you're talking about, on-device.

00:57:58   Like I'll just figure out the text version of what you said

00:58:01   and send the text up to a server,

00:58:03   which is even lower bandwidth,

00:58:04   and it can do the smart stuff

00:58:05   of figuring out what you mean by those words.

00:58:07   - All right, next, notification center revamp.

00:58:09   more Siri like Google Now and less a list of notifications.

00:58:14   - Boy, I would hate this.

00:58:15   - So where does the list of notifications go?

00:58:18   - Yeah, I agreed.

00:58:19   - The last thing notification center needs

00:58:20   is for Apple to be more clever about it.

00:58:22   (laughing)

00:58:23   They need to become less clever about it, simplify it.

00:58:26   Just give me a straight list of notifications

00:58:29   would be better than what it is now

00:58:31   with like the confusing like all versus missed

00:58:34   and then some things just kind of disappear forever.

00:58:36   - Oh yeah, no, how many times does a notification appear

00:58:38   on your device and you do whatever the wrong thing is

00:58:42   and you say, "What did that notification say again?"

00:58:45   It's like, "Oh, sorry sucker,

00:58:46   "you're never gonna see that again."

00:58:48   Try to find it.

00:58:49   Is it a notification center?

00:58:49   No.

00:58:50   Is it a missed?

00:58:51   No, 'cause you didn't miss it.

00:58:52   You saw it and then it went away.

00:58:53   It's like, "Ah!"

00:58:54   You know, it's not, they could be clever,

00:58:57   but try to explain to somebody,

00:59:00   like, "I saw a word appear on my screen,

00:59:01   "but now it's gone, where is it?"

00:59:03   - And it's a hard problem.

00:59:04   Like, you know, trying to be smart about it,

00:59:06   like, I just think it kinda can't be done well.

00:59:08   It's the kind of thing that it sounds cool on paper,

00:59:11   it'll make for an interesting keynote,

00:59:12   as you see with things like Google Now and with Cortana.

00:59:16   Like you see the other platforms doing this.

00:59:19   In practice, it's really hard to make that right

00:59:22   all the time.

00:59:23   It's a classic AI problem of like,

00:59:25   it tries to be smart, but a lot of times

00:59:27   that's not really what you wanted,

00:59:29   and it's very frustrating.

00:59:30   - And it's battling against notification overload,

00:59:32   because if you did just do the dumb linear list,

00:59:34   like very quickly that list would be crazy

00:59:36   and people would just start ignoring it.

00:59:37   Like they're trying to strike a balance between

00:59:39   just show you what's important,

00:59:41   get rid of it when you've already seen it,

00:59:44   and don't ever present like this humongous list

00:59:46   that you have to scroll through to look.

00:59:47   Because sometimes people get a lot of notifications.

00:59:50   - That's how I would do it actually.

00:59:51   Like if you look on the Mac, on Mac Notification Center,

00:59:54   it groups it by application, similar to iOS,

00:59:57   but like they kind of just stick around forever

00:59:59   until you clear them.

01:00:00   It's very annoying actually.

01:00:01   And you can kind of see like okay,

01:00:03   well that's one approach, that's kind of weird.

01:00:06   I think what would actually be best

01:00:09   is for Notification Center to just be

01:00:12   one combined timeline of notifications

01:00:14   so that whatever order you receive them,

01:00:17   whatever order you saw them in on the lock screen,

01:00:19   whatever order they came in,

01:00:20   there's a list that shows those same ones

01:00:22   in that same order,

01:00:23   and maybe has a blue dot next to the unread ones,

01:00:25   but they're still there.

01:00:26   Even after they're read, they're still in the list.

01:00:29   I don't see, I can't come up with any better alternative

01:00:33   that's better all around,

01:00:34   'cause every other one you come up with,

01:00:36   It's like, well, it's good for this use case,

01:00:37   but it's bad for these three use cases.

01:00:39   And like, it's, if you just give it one big list,

01:00:42   I think that's probably the least crappy option.

01:00:45   - Oh, I think they need to have that thing

01:00:47   you're describing accessible somehow.

01:00:49   I'm not sure it needs to be the thing in people's faces,

01:00:51   but would you, like, you need lifestreams.

01:00:53   Remember lifestreams?

01:00:54   That was a big trend back in the whatever, 90s maybe.

01:00:57   To conceptualize--

01:01:01   - I once met a vlogger.

01:01:02   - To conceptualize your use of a computer.

01:01:05   It was weird.

01:01:06   Buy time rather than buy file name or application or project

01:01:11   or anything like that so that anything you've seen or done

01:01:14   in your computer, you could just scroll back through

01:01:15   time-wise, kind of like the time machine UI,

01:01:18   but just cross-cutting across everything,

01:01:21   like web pages you've seen, email that you've read,

01:01:24   things that, messages that you've sent,

01:01:25   then you could just go scroll back through time

01:01:27   and see things in that way.

01:01:28   And then what you're talking about is a sort of

01:01:30   livestream view of your interaction with notifications.

01:01:34   And I think that should be accessible

01:01:35   because if you can't find something,

01:01:37   I'll just go back to your whatever,

01:01:39   they'd come up with some buzzword for it,

01:01:40   hell, they could call it livestream if they wanted.

01:01:41   And here's everything, and just go back through it

01:01:43   and you will see the events of the day as they unfolded.

01:01:46   This is when the message came in, and then you read it,

01:01:48   and then you replied, and you did this, and you did that.

01:01:52   But I don't know if that needs to be the thing

01:01:55   in the person's face, because what they're trying to do

01:01:57   is make it so you don't feel overwhelmed by notifications

01:01:59   by making them go away, that's why they have the miss thing

01:02:01   and the all thing, and I think that does make

01:02:04   for a better experience until you're like,

01:02:08   oh, what did that thing say?

01:02:09   Let me just go to the livestream and look at it.

01:02:11   I shouldn't say livestream because it's a terrible name,

01:02:13   but I don't know what else to call it.

01:02:15   - But that's how people use text messages though,

01:02:18   all the time, and it's fine.

01:02:20   Text messages are one giant chronological list,

01:02:22   totally unsorted, just by time.

01:02:25   - No, but it's by person.

01:02:25   It's by person though, isn't it?

01:02:27   - Well, yeah, okay, that's fair.

01:02:28   But still, I know so many people who

01:02:30   they need to get a piece of information

01:02:33   out of their text messages.

01:02:34   Like that's the only place it lives,

01:02:35   and they can just scroll up and just keep going.

01:02:38   They know roughly where it is,

01:02:39   and then they eventually find it, and that's it.

01:02:40   - But they end up with three gigabytes of messages.

01:02:43   - Well, yeah, but.

01:02:44   - The other category on their device starts growing.

01:02:48   - How helpful.

01:02:49   - If only Apple could store those things in the cloud,

01:02:51   and when you scrolled,

01:02:52   it would just pull those messages down,

01:02:53   and yeah, no, dare to dream, right?

01:02:55   - We'll get there.

01:02:56   - All right, so notification center in iCloud,

01:02:58   clearing notifications across Mac, iPhone, and iPad.

01:03:02   I will say that for iMessages, I think it's a little too quick to fall back to my other

01:03:11   devices, but in the last couple of months, maybe even more than that, if I'm in the midst

01:03:16   of a conversation on one of my devices, the other devices oftentimes will receive a new

01:03:23   text message, but generally speaking, nothing does any beeping or bonding or vibrating or

01:03:28   or anything like that, unless, let's assume I'm on my Mac,

01:03:33   unless I haven't acknowledged that new text message

01:03:36   on my Mac for like 10 or 15 seconds.

01:03:39   Now I think there should be a slightly longer grace period

01:03:42   than that because sometimes I'm,

01:03:43   especially on my Mac anyway, I'm looking at another window

01:03:46   or whatever the case may be and I haven't clicked back

01:03:48   to the messages window, but messages has actually

01:03:52   been working pretty well for me in this sense,

01:03:56   But I agree that in every other capacity,

01:03:59   it would be kind of neat to have one unified,

01:04:02   well, a unified timeline, actually.

01:04:04   - Man, your grace period is way more forgiving than mine.

01:04:06   With mine, like if I'm talking to you over iMessage,

01:04:09   and if the messages window is not my front-most window,

01:04:14   at the moment that comes in, it vibrates on all my devices.

01:04:18   I get zero grace period.

01:04:20   - Yeah, this thing reads even more like a wishlist item

01:04:22   of like, here's a problem I encounter using

01:04:25   Apple's cloud services on multiple devices,

01:04:27   and I want Apple to fix it, but I don't have any,

01:04:29   I don't have anything to say other than

01:04:31   it should do what I mean all the time.

01:04:32   And I, conceptually, we talked about this

01:04:34   when Messages first came out,

01:04:36   when iMessages first came out,

01:04:37   conceptually the thing that Apple is missing

01:04:39   is presence awareness, like figuring out

01:04:44   where you are and what you're doing.

01:04:45   Because if they can have a concept,

01:04:47   the concept of presence defined API-wise

01:04:51   so that each individual app isn't like

01:04:53   doing its own crazy heuristics,

01:04:54   like there was a framework for presence

01:04:56   and an awareness of where you are

01:04:58   and what device you're near

01:04:59   and what you're using or whatever,

01:05:01   then they could just improve that framework over time.

01:05:04   And applications that use that framework

01:05:06   would do the right thing,

01:05:06   including initially Apple's own,

01:05:08   like it would be a private framework

01:05:09   probably for a couple of releases.

01:05:10   And who knows, maybe they have a framework

01:05:12   that's supposed to do that, but it seems crappy.

01:05:14   Like we're all talking about situations where

01:05:17   because your messages window was hidden

01:05:19   or because it was in the front,

01:05:20   but you were looking at a different window,

01:05:22   it didn't go off on your iOS device,

01:05:24   then you, I have better luck getting messages

01:05:27   in the web interface to Gmail,

01:05:28   you know the little chat messages that come up.

01:05:30   I have missed fewer of those

01:05:32   than I have missed iMessages from my wife.

01:05:34   Like she'll send them from her phone

01:05:36   and I'll get the first one notification center

01:05:38   and I'll click on it and it'll launch the messages

01:05:40   and I'll converse with her

01:05:41   and then I'll go do something else

01:05:42   and another one will come in messages and I won't notice

01:05:45   and she'll be like, why didn't you respond to that one?

01:05:47   I didn't see it on my iOS device

01:05:48   'cause it wasn't there,

01:05:49   'cause messages was open

01:05:50   and it wanted me to say it was there

01:05:51   but it didn't even like,

01:05:52   or maybe bounce the icon once or something.

01:05:54   Like it's not, they don't have it yet.

01:05:57   So I think they have a long way to go there.

01:05:59   And I think this item for iOS 8,

01:06:01   iOS 8 will fix this.

01:06:03   Well, not in, it won't unless it has a cooperation

01:06:06   with the new version of OS 10

01:06:08   and all sorts of other things.

01:06:09   And this is just, you know, yes, I would like this too.

01:06:12   Make it so, but it's not,

01:06:14   it's a benefit more than a implementation.

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01:07:47   The sample they sent me is completely gone

01:07:50   because it was good.

01:07:51   (laughing)

01:07:52   - I've been very, very good about milking mine,

01:07:54   so to speak, but it is very good.

01:07:58   And very off the wall, which is kind of refreshing.

01:08:01   - It has some cool combination,

01:08:02   actually I should be honest, my sample was actually gone

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01:08:07   (laughing)

01:08:09   But yeah, it's really good stuff.

01:08:11   - All right, so continuing this list that at this point

01:08:15   absolutely confirms that it's a wishlist

01:08:17   and not a birdie telling us something they know.

01:08:20   Unlimited photo stream.

01:08:22   - Yeah, unlimited, just like unlimited bandwidth from AT&T.

01:08:26   - Everything in tech that claims to be unlimited,

01:08:29   that's always true, right?

01:08:30   - Totally.

01:08:31   - Well, sometimes, like think about it,

01:08:34   Backblaze for instance.

01:08:36   - Yeah, they actually manage to do it.

01:08:38   - They say it's unlimited.

01:08:39   Maybe it's not.

01:08:40   Maybe if I had like 300 terabytes

01:08:42   that someone would come to my house and talk to me.

01:08:44   - In person.

01:08:45   But so far, I have multiple terabytes there.

01:08:48   I mean, maybe they're relying on the fact

01:08:49   that you can't upload, like the ISPs,

01:08:52   how long would it take you to upload a petabyte of data?

01:08:55   It's like, you know, it would take a long time.

01:08:57   But so far, I haven't hit a back place limit.

01:09:00   - It's probably also used to the law of averages.

01:09:02   My mom's computer, I back up everything

01:09:05   I possibly can back up from that.

01:09:06   It's 37 gigs.

01:09:07   (laughs)

01:09:10   I'm paying the same 37 gigs there

01:09:12   I'm paying for one and a half terabytes on my desktop.

01:09:14   Yeah, PhotoStream, they don't have that same advantage, though, because I think people

01:09:18   just keep taking photos their whole life, and they, you know, it's not like with data

01:09:22   there's some turnover, like, you know, you're gonna, I don't know what the turnover is in

01:09:26   data, because maybe people delete their email after time, or it just doesn't seem like it

01:09:30   grows linearly, like maybe people aren't putting their photos into Photoshop or whatever. Anyway,

01:09:37   unlimited or not, yes, we all want PhotoStream to be better. We've had many past shows about

01:09:42   describing how frustrating it is that, with the Everpix gone and everything, that Apple

01:09:47   isn't picking up the baton and saying, "Don't worry. No matter how many pictures you take,

01:09:52   we'll take care of keeping them safe." For a fee, for not a fee, like, at least give us that option.

01:09:56   At this point, your options are not great, and no one company is ready to take care of your photos

01:10:03   forever or even try to make that promise. I really think this is the kind of thing,

01:10:07   I mean, and you know, we've talked at length about this, the prompt has talked at length

01:10:10   about this, even more so than us I think, which is saying a lot. I think this is one

01:10:16   of those things like Apple has to be the one to offer the photo solution finally. It doesn't

01:10:24   mean they will. I actually am not that confident that they will. But I think that's what

01:10:29   needs to happen long term. I really do. And there are so many question marks about how

01:10:34   they would do that and if they would do that and how they could pay for that. To me, I

01:10:38   I think the biggest question mark is still video.

01:10:40   What do you do with video?

01:10:41   And the answer is probably you just omit it

01:10:43   from PhotoStream or severely down sample it

01:10:46   so it fits within the one minute sending limit,

01:10:48   stuff like that.

01:10:50   But overall, I just think like,

01:10:53   if you look at how people actually use these devices

01:10:56   and what people's expectations of their data

01:10:59   and its safety actually are, I don't see any other solution.

01:11:04   That would actually be good long term.

01:11:07   Apple just has to do it and they have to find a way

01:11:09   to do it and pay for it.

01:11:10   And there are some shortcuts they can take

01:11:14   that could substantially cut down

01:11:17   on the cost and data volume.

01:11:18   Like for instance, just don't store,

01:11:20   obviously don't support raws and stuff from desktops.

01:11:23   Just don't store the full JPEG quality.

01:11:26   Like if they store every picture at quality 40,

01:11:29   almost nobody will ever be able to tell.

01:11:32   - No, I don't like that.

01:11:33   I think they need to store the full quality one

01:11:35   otherwise they're not really solving the problem.

01:11:36   I don't want crappy quality versions

01:11:38   of the pictures of my kids saved.

01:11:39   I'd say, oh, don't worry, all your devices went up in smoke

01:11:42   when your house burned down,

01:11:42   but we've got really crappy quality JPEGs.

01:11:44   No, I want the originals.

01:11:45   - No, but there's a lot of headroom in the JPEG format.

01:11:48   Like, for good JPEG encoders, there is a ton of headroom.

01:11:52   You can get the quality down really small.

01:11:55   Like, you know, you're not gonna bring

01:11:57   a full camera-sized picture down to 60 kilobytes or anything,

01:12:02   but you can bring it down from, you know,

01:12:05   What's a JPEG off an iPhone worth these days?

01:12:09   Like three and a half, four or five megs,

01:12:10   something like that?

01:12:11   - Somewhere around there.

01:12:12   - You could easily bring it down to one meg or less

01:12:15   and be very, and be transparent to almost anybody.

01:12:20   - Yeah, just like you can on a CD.

01:12:23   - Yeah, you can.

01:12:24   - Yeah, I don't like that solution.

01:12:28   I think they should take RAWs.

01:12:30   They just gotta figure out the economics.

01:12:31   Like, this is something that I think people

01:12:34   to be willing to pay for as long as it's reasonable.

01:12:36   And I think with $5 unlimited backup,

01:12:39   it shows that it's within,

01:12:41   it's gonna get more and more reasonable over time

01:12:43   'cause photos are not getting bigger at the same rate

01:12:46   that storage is getting cheaper at this point, I think.

01:12:48   So hopefully this will solve itself eventually.

01:12:50   A more realistic wishlist item for this would be

01:12:53   what we also talked about is for iCloud backups,

01:12:56   at least allow it to match the size of the device

01:12:59   for a reasonable price instead of being,

01:13:02   oh, you get a little bit free

01:13:03   and then we nickel and dime you.

01:13:04   And if you buy another device, oh, you

01:13:06   don't get any additional storage,

01:13:07   and you just keep paying more.

01:13:08   It would be nicer if they rewarded their good customers

01:13:12   who buy the biggest devices, who buy lots of devices,

01:13:15   by making each additional purchase help you

01:13:19   towards iCloud backup for them.

01:13:23   You know what would be really neat is if Apple--

01:13:25   and I don't think they'd ever do it-- but did a unified backup

01:13:29   solution.

01:13:30   So you've got backups of your iDevices, as big as they are,

01:13:36   as much as you want.

01:13:37   Time Machine now can refer to either a local drive and/or

01:13:43   the Apple MobileMe cloud or something like that.

01:13:49   PhotoStream goes on either forever more or considerably

01:13:53   longer than it does right now.

01:13:56   I could just see how that would be so awesome.

01:13:58   I would pay so much money to just be able to in one place or pay one entity

01:14:04   To make all of these backup problems go away. All right next on the wish list is auto downloading and updating iOS. I

01:14:12   don't see how

01:14:15   That would really be feasible without doesn't it already?

01:14:19   Yeah, this is like auto updating. Well, here's here's one problem

01:14:23   I mean like my mom can't upgrade to iOS 7 yet because she's in a free space

01:14:28   - Yeah.

01:14:29   - And it needs like 800 megabytes

01:14:31   and she doesn't have that.

01:14:32   And what I have to tell her to get that is,

01:14:35   well, if you want to do that,

01:14:36   you have to delete all your photos basically.

01:14:38   'Cause she has an eight gig iPhone 4.

01:14:39   There's like no space on there.

01:14:41   - Isn't this the one that you told her

01:14:42   expressly not to buy?

01:14:43   - Yes, yes it is.

01:14:45   - Have you reminded her of that fact?

01:14:46   - Every time I see her.

01:14:48   - And how does that go over for you?

01:14:50   - It's starting to not go over that well anymore.

01:14:53   (laughing)

01:14:54   Yeah, it's an eight gig iPhone 4.

01:14:57   so it's, yeah, they're really the best of everything.

01:15:00   Anyway, so I don't see, I think that's implausible.

01:15:04   It would anger so many people to have their phones

01:15:06   automatically update to like a major OS release.

01:15:09   Like everything, imagine if iOS 7 was an automatic update,

01:15:12   like not just an automatic download,

01:15:13   but if it just automatically installed

01:15:15   while your phone was charging one night.

01:15:17   - Oh yeah.

01:15:18   - I think that's coming, just not in iOS 8.

01:15:21   Distant future, the infinite version.

01:15:25   Jeff Atwood, blog post.

01:15:27   Chrome is already auto updating.

01:15:28   You have no choice.

01:15:29   - No, the Jeff Atwood thing is it's gonna be written

01:15:31   in JavaScript.

01:15:32   (laughing)

01:15:33   - No, not that.

01:15:34   The other, he wrote a blog post about,

01:15:36   called the Infinite Version,

01:15:38   about the trend of software that wants to update itself

01:15:40   and you just accept it because that's just the way it works.

01:15:42   And that's the way, you know, that's a totally an Apple move.

01:15:45   When that day comes, it will just happen

01:15:47   and you'll just deal with it.

01:15:49   - Yeah, I mean, I guess that's what happens with web apps,

01:15:51   but people get pretty angry at that too.

01:15:54   Just like anytime Facebook ever changes anything,

01:15:56   You see like half the world explode.

01:15:58   - I think they could make that the default

01:16:00   and people would just accept it.

01:16:03   Like, you know, maybe they're not ready for it in iOS 8.

01:16:06   I don't think this is gonna happen in iOS 8,

01:16:08   but in iOS 15, I would bet on it.

01:16:11   - All right.

01:16:13   Separate game store from app store.

01:16:15   - I would love that.

01:16:16   - I think it would be nice.

01:16:17   I don't think it'll happen.

01:16:18   - 'Cause if you look at the app store now,

01:16:20   and yeah, I agree.

01:16:21   I don't think there's a chance of it happening.

01:16:24   I just wish it would happen

01:16:25   because generally speaking,

01:16:28   I think if you're browsing the App Store,

01:16:32   you probably have one of those things in mind,

01:16:35   like are you looking for a game right now

01:16:37   or are you looking for something else, something non-game?

01:16:40   What that would do to App Store browsing

01:16:44   would be pretty substantial.

01:16:46   And it wouldn't all be good,

01:16:47   but I think it would be a net win.

01:16:50   You know, if you think about

01:16:51   if games had their own top charts,

01:16:54   assuming Apple's gonna keep the top chart,

01:16:56   which I still think they shouldn't,

01:16:58   I think the top apps ranking lists are very destructive

01:17:03   to quality of software and economics and so many things,

01:17:08   I think they're very, very bad for a lot.

01:17:11   But Apple seems to be pretty committed to keeping them,

01:17:15   at least by their inaction.

01:17:16   So assuming they're gonna keep the top lists

01:17:20   in the App Store,

01:17:22   having games have their own complete top list,

01:17:25   like not just this one category

01:17:27   with the little subcategories in the real App Store,

01:17:30   if you give it like its own entire store,

01:17:33   and then it has a completely different standard

01:17:35   for like editorial, you know, what's new and noteworthy,

01:17:39   the top list, all that stuff,

01:17:40   it would allow them to have more granular categories,

01:17:42   not that they would, but it'd be nice if they would,

01:17:45   stuff like that, that would be great.

01:17:47   And then in the newly separated App Store

01:17:51   with no games in it, it would be a lot easier to find apps

01:17:55   'cause you wouldn't have all the charts and lists

01:17:58   and features be cluttered up with games.

01:18:00   The problem I think is that, first of all,

01:18:05   very few people, relatively speaking,

01:18:07   most people would just visit the game store

01:18:10   and the app store would be pretty abandoned

01:18:14   by most customers I think for casual browsing.

01:18:18   And that might not be a bad thing anyway

01:18:20   'cause how many of them were actually going to the app store

01:18:23   looking for a new game to play

01:18:24   and then they ended up buying your PDF app?

01:18:26   Really, does that really happen a lot?

01:18:28   I mean, it might, but I don't know.

01:18:29   I would guess not.

01:18:31   And then the other problem would be,

01:18:34   how do you enforce the difference?

01:18:38   Like if you're an app that has a game type element

01:18:42   but you're a very useful productivity app also,

01:18:45   would you put yourself in the game store

01:18:46   to get more visibility?

01:18:47   Would Apple just allow that?

01:18:48   How would they judge certain apps

01:18:50   that are kind of like, kind of on the borderline

01:18:54   between like is this an app or is this a game?

01:18:56   So I think overall, it would have a few problems.

01:19:00   Apple could overcome this if they wanted to,

01:19:02   but I just think the chances of them doing this

01:19:05   are so low because it would be a massive change

01:19:10   to the App Store.

01:19:11   And if it's one thing Apple has shown us

01:19:13   over the last six, seven years, however long it's been,

01:19:16   it's that they don't really care

01:19:18   to make massive changes to the App Store.

01:19:20   whether they can't or whether they choose not to,

01:19:22   I don't know, but one of those things.

01:19:24   Either they can't or they choose not to,

01:19:25   and it's very, very clear,

01:19:27   and I'm expecting no substantial changes to the App Store.

01:19:30   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:19:33   I feel like at some point they're gonna have to piss

01:19:37   or get off the pot when it comes to--

01:19:39   - That is not the metaphor, but go ahead.

01:19:40   - Well, I'm trying to be polite-ish.

01:19:43   - That was the polite version?

01:19:44   - Yeah, ish. (laughing)

01:19:46   So they're gonna have--

01:19:47   - They're trying to play flight controller,

01:19:48   get off the pot.

01:19:49   Nice.

01:19:50   They're going to have to do something.

01:19:54   And I concur that I don't think that this is going to be the time for them to do it,

01:20:00   but I just, I don't understand why the outward, all outward indication is Apple just does

01:20:09   not give a crap that all of their best, all of their best third party developers really

01:20:16   are getting, I don't know if disenfranchised is the right word, but getting grumbly about

01:20:22   the ecosystem.

01:20:23   And a friend of the show, _DavidSmith, had a really, really good episode of Developing

01:20:29   Perspective that, if we remember, we'll put in the show notes, that wherein he talks about

01:20:34   kind of how the prevailing feeling in the community is very pessimistic and way more

01:20:43   pessimistic than it's been in a long time, and I agree with him completely, that there's

01:20:48   a lot of grumbling going on, a lot more than usual.

01:20:51   And I don't know, not that it all comes down to the store, but you put a little money in

01:20:56   everyone's pockets and typically everything looks a little bit better as a result.

01:21:01   So we'll see.

01:21:02   I don't know how much separating the game store from the app store is really going to

01:21:06   help.

01:21:07   I know it'll help make anything other than a game stand out a little bit more, but I

01:21:14   think we've got much bigger, much more fundamental problems than that.

01:21:17   I mean, here's the problem, the way I see it.

01:21:21   That if you look at the people who are actually complaining, it's the small potatoes for

01:21:26   the most part.

01:21:27   It's people like us, it's people like Underscore, it's people who are in the Apple Geek blogger

01:21:35   community, you know, it's people who read

01:21:38   Daring Fireball basically, those people are complaining.

01:21:41   But if you look at what's actually in the App Store,

01:21:44   all those people who are on those top lists,

01:21:47   they're probably like, well, look, we're fine,

01:21:49   this is great.

01:21:49   Our community has always complained about the App Store

01:21:54   from day one, we were complaining about some different

01:21:57   things back then, but it was mostly the same stuff,

01:22:00   mostly the same people.

01:22:02   There's always been, we've always been complaining

01:22:03   about this and if they fix some of the issues we have,

01:22:07   we will complain about different ones.

01:22:09   So I don't actually think it's that different now.

01:22:13   Now there's just some of the directions

01:22:17   that the App Store was taking at the beginning,

01:22:20   like the race to the bottom in pricing,

01:22:22   like some of those have just played out further

01:22:25   than they were at the beginning,

01:22:26   but I think for the most part,

01:22:27   it's the same group complaining, but the same complaints.

01:22:31   And I don't know how much Apple cares about that

01:22:34   because what I was saying earlier about how they kind of

01:22:37   put Game Center stuff and newsstand stuff,

01:22:41   they put these things in a drawer

01:22:43   and just kind of forget about it.

01:22:45   I think that's how they see apps.

01:22:47   I think that's how they see the entire

01:22:48   third-party development community.

01:22:50   Not quite as severely, but the same kind of feeling

01:22:55   where it's like we're gonna have this major community here

01:22:59   that we kind of just, we have to deal with them

01:23:03   because of market forces.

01:23:04   Like we have to interact with them,

01:23:06   but we're gonna try to compartmentalize it

01:23:07   as much as possible and kind of patronize it

01:23:10   to the degree we have to and just kind of, you know,

01:23:15   I don't know, just kind of like shove all these people

01:23:20   together in this way that will make them shut up

01:23:23   and get them out of our face so we can keep doing

01:23:24   our pristine stuff over on this side of the fence.

01:23:27   Like that's, and I know this doesn't represent everybody

01:23:31   who works at Apple, there's a lot of great people there

01:23:34   who try to make developers' lives better.

01:23:36   But the actions of the company as a whole

01:23:39   indicate that that's what they think of us.

01:23:42   And that has been the case for the entire history

01:23:46   of the App Store, and I don't see that changing,

01:23:49   and I don't really see a pressing need for it to change.

01:23:51   'Cause if you look at it from the super hype executive's

01:23:54   point of view, and you look at it from Tim Cook

01:23:56   from Phil Schiller, who I think the app store is actually under Schiller's reign, I think,

01:24:02   but I'm not entirely sure. It doesn't matter. Whoever's reign it's under, if you look at

01:24:09   it from their point of view, they can, every quarter they can point to some number like,

01:24:13   "Look, here's how much we've paid the developers overall. We're doing great. We have all these

01:24:16   apps in our store. People keep buying them or people keep putting coins into candy, whatever,

01:24:21   and it's fine. There's no problems."

01:24:23   Yeah, that metric-based approach, though, is what annoys me the most,

01:24:27   because they get up there and this is what they say.

01:24:29   They have these numbers to say,

01:24:30   "Here's how many bajillions of dollars we gave to developers.

01:24:33   Here's how many apps we have in the store.

01:24:35   And let me show you this awesome app that is great."

01:24:38   And if they lay them all out like that, you're like,

01:24:41   "Wow, the app store is great."

01:24:42   But what they don't realize is the awesome app that's great sells nothing.

01:24:46   All that money is from bilking a bunch of whales

01:24:49   out of money for in-app purchases for crappy games,

01:24:53   And the number of apps in the store is high because there's millions of keywords, spam, clone, piece of crap things.

01:24:57   And like those three numbers are big on their own.

01:25:01   But like together, they don't make an app store filled with awesome games and developers making a lot of money.

01:25:07   You know what I mean? And I don't know if they know that or if they think they just look at their metric and say that metric is good, that metric is good, that metric is good.

01:25:14   Therefore, the app store is good because I think when they see these games like this app, isn't this beautiful app used for medical imaging or that sells like 10 copies?

01:25:21   No one buys it.

01:25:22   Everyone is buying Candy Crush and getting their money sucked out of their pockets.

01:25:26   And there's so many apps.

01:25:27   Look how many billions of apps we have.

01:25:29   We have more apps.

01:25:30   Yeah, they're all crap.

01:25:31   Like we just it's what we're all complaining about is because we want we

01:25:35   realized that those things are so different and we want there to be a store

01:25:38   with lots of good, high quality apps made by developers who get a fair price for

01:25:43   them and customers who are satisfied about them.

01:25:44   And that's not the app store that exists.

01:25:46   But the individual metrics are the numbers look good, right?

01:25:50   And I really wonder whether they are fooled

01:25:54   by those numbers or whether they just bring those numbers

01:25:56   out and say, well, this makes good for good PR,

01:25:58   but we know internally there's a bunch of problems.

01:26:01   - That's a good question.

01:26:02   - But if they know internally there's a bunch of problems,

01:26:04   we've had a lot of time for those problems to get fixed.

01:26:07   And Marco's right, there's been a decided lack of action.

01:26:12   So at what point do we just throw our hands in the air

01:26:14   and say, you know what, this is obviously the way it is

01:26:17   and we're just gonna have to live with it?

01:26:19   I mean, a lot of it, like if you look at the App Store,

01:26:23   it's obviously built on the same infrastructure

01:26:24   as the iTunes Store.

01:26:26   And the iTunes Store has the exact same issues,

01:26:29   where it doesn't really change very often.

01:26:31   If you look at the iTunes Store today,

01:26:35   versus the iTunes Store in 2008,

01:26:37   when the App Store was launched, it has not changed much.

01:26:41   - Yeah, but any joker with $99 can't put a song up there

01:26:44   that uses the same title as a Beyonce song

01:26:46   and trying to make money by people accidentally buying it.

01:26:48   - Right, that's true.

01:26:50   But, well it probably isn't that different actually.

01:26:52   But anyway, it seems like anything that involves

01:26:56   the iTunes Store infrastructure, for whatever reason,

01:26:59   whether it's technical, political, whatever the reason is,

01:27:03   it's like it's frozen in time and Apple can never

01:27:06   meaningfully improve it or they just choose not to.

01:27:09   And I don't know what that, like forever ago Casey,

01:27:12   our friend, I probably shouldn't name him,

01:27:15   but forever ago our friend told us a number of times

01:27:18   that the iTunes store is not run by Apple,

01:27:22   it's run by some contractor in Virginia,

01:27:24   something like that.

01:27:25   And I don't know if that's true or not,

01:27:26   but if that is true, it would explain a lot.

01:27:28   But either way, it just seems like Apple doesn't care

01:27:32   that much about the iTunes store,

01:27:33   or they are paralyzed by some kind of technical debt

01:27:37   that they haven't repaid or choose not to repay,

01:27:40   and just can't change anything about it.

01:27:42   Or whatever reason they don't change anything about it.

01:27:45   - They're paralyzed by the success

01:27:47   in terms of the volume.

01:27:48   Some of those numbers they tried out how many apps are there how many things are downloaded how many bytes how many songs and those?

01:27:54   Numbers are so big and any interruption in that is so you know like

01:27:58   You know this this should be something that the company can handle doing but I think that

01:28:03   As the biggest thing they have the biggest online thing that money comes in and data goes out is basically a app store and iTunes

01:28:11   Store combined right that's their biggest thing

01:28:13   If your plan is we're gonna totally change that thing

01:28:17   And you're an organization that feels nervous about your,

01:28:21   you know, not so confident about your ability to deploy

01:28:24   sort of web scale, Google scale services.

01:28:27   You're gonna be like,

01:28:28   eh, my bonus depends on not being down on Christmas morning

01:28:31   and letting people set up their new devices

01:28:33   and be able to buy apps and iTunes things.

01:28:35   And this works for that.

01:28:36   And people have complaints,

01:28:37   but like it's pretty easy to convince yourself

01:28:39   that the safe move is to just stick with the infrastructure

01:28:42   you have and just keep improving it by bits and pieces.

01:28:44   - How long can Apple keep going

01:28:46   with their web services feeling like they're running on DOS

01:28:49   and everyone else is in this century.

01:28:50   - Yeah, the longer they go, the bigger it gets.

01:28:52   Like if they had these same feelings back when the iTunes,

01:28:55   when the App Store didn't exist

01:28:56   and the iTunes Store was half the size

01:28:57   and now just the problem keeps getting bigger

01:28:59   and bigger over time.

01:29:00   So the longer they wait, the harder it is to replace it

01:29:03   with something better that also happens to work

01:29:05   at that scale.

01:29:06   It's just by Google.

01:29:08   - Well, you know, I think we're all losing sight

01:29:11   of the fact that it's only a matter of time

01:29:13   before WebObjects has a resurgence

01:29:15   because clearly that's what's going to happen.

01:29:17   - And I don't even know if they're still using WebObjects.

01:29:19   Who knows?

01:29:20   It doesn't-- - They are.

01:29:21   - They are, really?

01:29:22   - They are. - Oh, boy.

01:29:23   - On the backend, like we can see the WOAH URLs

01:29:26   and the web page, but you know.

01:29:27   - It could have been legacy URLs.

01:29:29   Nah, probably not.

01:29:31   - No, no, no.

01:29:32   My extremely limited understanding,

01:29:35   influenced in part by Friends of Birdies

01:29:39   and things in Birdies occasionally,

01:29:42   it is all mostly WebObjects, as far as I know,

01:29:44   if not all Web objects in the backend?

01:29:46   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:29:47   I mean, that probably, the language

01:29:49   might not be the problem.

01:29:51   I think it's pretty clear the problem

01:29:52   is just cultural within Apple.

01:29:54   It's like they, for whatever reason,

01:29:57   they just do not consider it a priority

01:30:00   to modernize these systems in a significant major way

01:30:04   or to make significant changes to the stores themselves

01:30:09   or the way they work to benefit users and developers

01:30:12   in a substantial way.

01:30:14   They just don't care.

01:30:15   That's the reality of it.

01:30:16   They just don't care.

01:30:18   - Well, and I wonder if part of the reason they don't care

01:30:22   is because from my understanding of the Google Play Store,

01:30:27   that is so full of, I don't know if I should call it spam,

01:30:31   but full of things that probably don't belong,

01:30:35   and you can define that however you'd like.

01:30:37   It's such a, it's an even worse Wild West out there.

01:30:41   And so since nobody's showing them up

01:30:44   and making them look bad.

01:30:46   And additionally, since so many really hot apps

01:30:48   are still on iOS first,

01:30:51   like Instagram is a great example,

01:30:53   which is quite old now, but take Instagram.

01:30:56   What's compelling Apple to make it better?

01:30:59   A bunch of whiny nerds talking on a podcast

01:31:02   that maybe none of them listen to anyway.

01:31:04   I don't see what the impetus is

01:31:08   to really make it better from their point of view.

01:31:10   - Yeah, that's a good point.

01:31:11   I think we would all agree

01:31:11   that they still have the best store, as crappy as it may be,

01:31:15   because the problems are worse elsewhere.

01:31:17   And so Apple responds to competitive pressure.

01:31:21   Android getting better.

01:31:22   If you look at the past major iOS versions

01:31:26   and look at the features they've added,

01:31:28   a lot of them have been in iOS first

01:31:30   and that competitive pressure really had,

01:31:33   when Apple's deciding what's gonna go in iOS 5,

01:31:35   what's gonna go in iOS 6,

01:31:37   strategic and competitive things.

01:31:39   Like strategic is like, oh, we gotta do maps on our own

01:31:41   because we hate Google now, and notifications.

01:31:44   Why did they get those?

01:31:45   Well, Android had them for a while, and people wanted them,

01:31:47   so they had to do something like that.

01:31:48   Apple can add lots of different features to their OS.

01:31:51   They very often choose to add ones

01:31:53   that competitors had before them because it's

01:31:55   competitive pressure.

01:31:56   And so who is making the better curated, more pleasant, less

01:32:00   spam-filled app store?

01:32:02   Nobody, I guess.

01:32:03   Well, what is it?

01:32:05   Findio, fnd.io.

01:32:07   Isn't that Mute Winner that did that?

01:32:09   - No, I'm saying like which other platform?

01:32:10   Like, I mean, maybe Windows Phone

01:32:12   because it doesn't have a lot of apps,

01:32:14   so all of them in there, like, I don't know.

01:32:16   I don't wanna make fun of Windows Phone, but.

01:32:18   - I don't know.

01:32:19   Right, so back to this list,

01:32:22   which the longer we spend going through it,

01:32:24   the more I think it's not actually somebody with knowledge,

01:32:27   but anyway.

01:32:28   - Yeah, I think at this point it's pretty clear.

01:32:29   - Instead of going to the next item,

01:32:31   is there anything in the remainder of the list

01:32:32   that we think is interesting enough to talk about?

01:32:35   - I think the one month auto-delete messages thing

01:32:37   could be interesting,

01:32:38   you know, we've talked before, as has the prompt,

01:32:41   we've talked before about, you know,

01:32:42   the issue of people's text messages getting so big,

01:32:46   because what ends up happening is like,

01:32:48   if somebody messages you a photo,

01:32:50   that photo sticks around and your message is forever

01:32:52   until you delete that entire conversation. (laughs)

01:32:55   Or I think you can delete individual items,

01:32:57   but nobody ever does.

01:32:58   So that photo sticks around forever

01:33:00   and just takes up space on your device.

01:33:03   And so having some kind of auto-delete, I think,

01:33:07   is a solution, I don't think it's the solution.

01:33:10   I think the solution, like John, you mentioned earlier,

01:33:13   is to store those things in iCloud

01:33:16   and just have some kind of retention

01:33:19   where maybe you don't delete photos after a month,

01:33:24   maybe you keep somebody's photos for the last year.

01:33:27   - Well, just keep everything.

01:33:28   Like people aren't gonna use,

01:33:29   it's not like people say,

01:33:31   "Oh, I'm gonna use Gmail as a file backup,

01:33:32   "was gonna email myself things."

01:33:33   Like I don't think anyone's gonna exploit it by saying,

01:33:35   Just just send me through iMessage all the photos because Apple will start them forever. It's just text mostly

01:33:40   Yes, this pictures in there, but just keep them

01:33:42   Just bite the bullet look the battery in these iOS devices is gonna run out in like three years is things gonna be dead

01:33:50   They're gonna buy a new one because technology is advancing. They're gonna give you more money just store all our messages

01:33:56   Forever their text and plus a little bit of images John

01:34:01   You clearly never exchanged text messages with me because they are way heavy on the images and way light on the text

01:34:09   Yeah, but even total how many years you since 2007 you have like three gigs or something

01:34:14   I forget what it was because I have since deleted mostly I know but you had like three days

01:34:18   It's not that much like if it really needs it really needs to be I think people would be willing to pay some sort of

01:34:23   Thing of like Apple keep all my stuff forever in the default could be deleted after a year or two years or something reasonable like

01:34:28   that. But yeah, like Marco said, deleting off the device is so primitive. Like, if only

01:34:32   there was some other place we could put text. It's like, this server, just stick it up there.

01:34:38   When I get to the end of the scroll thing, pull them down from— basic cloud stuff that

01:34:45   we all take for granted is like, well, of course Apple can't do that. They'll just

01:34:48   have to delete them off the device when they get too old.

01:34:51   That's the sad part. They can't. They have shown us so many times, they actually can't.

01:34:57   It's embarrassing, they're one of the most, they're certainly probably the most influential

01:35:04   tech company in the world.

01:35:06   They are one of the biggest, one of the most successful.

01:35:10   They are on top of their game in so many ways and yet once it comes to touching something

01:35:15   on a server somewhere, again it's like they're living in the DOS days.

01:35:21   And certain parts of their infrastructure are great, like the push notification system

01:35:26   is really good. It's rock solid most of the day. I mean, maybe in its first few months

01:35:31   it might have had some problems, but it's been rock solid for me the entire time. Like,

01:35:37   they have these couple of things that are amazing and then everything else is just like,

01:35:43   you know, half-assed, crappy, unreliable, or relevant to this part of the discussion,

01:35:49   extremely limited in ways that would seem that would seem like archaic and too

01:35:55   limited on the internet ten years ago. Or built on a framework that like doesn't

01:35:59   acknowledge the existence of servers. Like it's built on a framework that's

01:36:02   entirely a client-side framework and then there's some kind of like shim or

01:36:05   adapter to get it. Like it's not it's not sort of like web native you know what I

01:36:09   mean? Right. Even even as native as you think of like a stupid infinite scroll

01:36:13   web page that when you get to the end it makes an AJAX request and pulls down

01:36:16   some more data and sticks it in.

01:36:17   Like, they're like, "No, no, that's too primitive.

01:36:21   We have a framework that deals with this."

01:36:22   Of course, it works only client-side, and if you wanted to pull it down server-side,

01:36:25   there's not even any good hooks for that.

01:36:26   And then when they try to take something like that, like, "Oh, we'll make core data, but

01:36:29   we'll also make it work over iCloud," that didn't work out all that great so far either.

01:36:33   So I'm not saying they have to be web-first and do all their UIs in HTML and JavaScript,

01:36:39   but everything, every API they make, every framework they make for dealing with data

01:36:44   at this point should have some acknowledgement

01:36:47   that it may be useful for some or all of this data

01:36:49   not to be local and build that into how the framework works.

01:36:53   - Yeah.

01:36:54   - You know what I just thought of is,

01:36:55   I've met a handful of Apple engineers,

01:36:59   I don't know, maybe between five and 15,

01:37:02   and every single one of these people,

01:37:04   and firstly, they're all software engineers,

01:37:08   and they're not hardware engineers,

01:37:10   but every single one of these people,

01:37:12   I can't think of any that have been anywhere near servers.

01:37:16   And it's extremely anecdotal and not really representative

01:37:19   of anything real.

01:37:21   But I don't know, do you guys know anyone

01:37:23   that works at Apple on the server side?

01:37:25   Nope.

01:37:26   Are there that many of them?

01:37:28   I've talked to some people who have done work

01:37:30   on the back end for iCloud, .Mac type stuff back in those days.

01:37:38   So those people are there.

01:37:40   But I mean, we've talked about the same problem so many times, like it's just,

01:37:44   if you're going to do this type of thing, just look at the client side.

01:37:47   Apple does the client side so well.

01:37:48   Look at the things they do there and how they do them.

01:37:51   Look at how they make new frameworks for solving problems

01:37:54   and extend those frameworks and support them and fix bugs in them

01:37:57   and replace old ones with new ones.

01:37:58   And they build an infrastructure

01:38:00   from the compiler all the way up for doing client side stuff very well.

01:38:03   And they just, you know, it's just constant improvement,

01:38:06   improving the language, improving the IDE,

01:38:08   proving the compiler, making new frameworks, on and on and on.

01:38:11   There's no equivalent to that on the server side, or if there is,

01:38:14   we don't see it at all.

01:38:16   Versus Google, which does exactly that equivalent on the server side.

01:38:19   They have tools for storing data, for synchronizing data,

01:38:22   tools for managing their data center on the hardware side.

01:38:24   There's just constant revision, constant improvement

01:38:27   to every piece of the infrastructure from the bottom up.

01:38:29   That's all they do all day long, all year, like the whole company

01:38:32   is built around that.

01:38:33   And Apple does that on the client side. It's just that

01:38:37   Apple doesn't invest in infrastructure on the server side in a way that is visible to us on the outside.

01:38:41   It could be that they do all exactly the same things that Google does internally and we just don't see it because why would

01:38:46   anyone outside need to see these things? But I think that's part of the culture.

01:38:50   Why do we know about Spanner and Bigtable and MapReduce? Because Google

01:38:54   told us about them and shared their knowledge and expertise and open sources stuff and protocol buffers and like all these, you know,

01:39:01   even Facebook with all its different projects and HHVM and

01:39:05   Scribe and all this other stuff.

01:39:07   That culture doesn't exist at Apple

01:39:09   and I don't see how they're ever gonna be competitive

01:39:11   with those companies unless they get some of that religion.

01:39:13   - I think to summarize what I see from the outside,

01:39:18   it's that Apple completely lacks hustle

01:39:21   in the entire category of web services.

01:39:25   You see Apple is pulling the industry forward

01:39:30   when it comes to hardware design forever

01:39:34   and a lot of the software design as well.

01:39:36   They're like dragging the industry forward,

01:39:38   like look at how awesome we are,

01:39:39   we're gonna force you all to keep up with us

01:39:41   in hardware and software design.

01:39:43   And then it comes to things like web services

01:39:46   and the rest of the industry is doing that to Apple

01:39:49   and Apple is just like being dragged along,

01:39:52   kicking and screaming like fine,

01:39:53   I guess I'll do the bare minimum

01:39:55   that might solve your problem on a web service.

01:39:57   And it's like they are only doing what's required,

01:40:03   often not even that, and just putting no,

01:40:08   seemingly to the front, putting no heart into it,

01:40:12   no substantial effort that's above and beyond,

01:40:15   they're just like, to them it's just a checkbox,

01:40:17   fine, I guess we have to do something with the web service,

01:40:21   eventually here you go.

01:40:23   There's no hustle there, we don't see,

01:40:26   there's never anything where they launch it

01:40:27   and then all of a sudden everyone else

01:40:29   has to scramble to keep up.

01:40:31   Siri might have been one of those things,

01:40:33   but even then they got lapped pretty quickly

01:40:36   after they launched it.

01:40:38   Like they just completely lack that hustle

01:40:42   on the services end.

01:40:43   Whereas they have it in other areas of their business,

01:40:46   but you just don't see that at all for services.

01:40:50   Whereas then Google and Facebook and Amazon,

01:40:52   but especially Google,

01:40:54   I think they're the best at this by far,

01:40:56   Google just nails that.

01:40:58   Google will destroy anybody with sheer server-side hustle.

01:41:03   They are so good at it, they just have

01:41:06   infinite server-side engineering resources

01:41:08   to just beat everyone up with web service capabilities

01:41:16   and advancements and new expectations set by other people,

01:41:21   by customers because of how awesome their web services are.

01:41:24   And so Google does with web services

01:41:26   what Apple does with hardware design.

01:41:28   And Apple just seems to not want to close that gap at all.

01:41:33   - Someone on Twitter asked why we don't use

01:41:35   a shared pages document for a show notes,

01:41:37   instead we use the Google thing.

01:41:39   And it's because I don't like the pages thing.

01:41:43   Like, I looked at it again just to make sure

01:41:45   that I still didn't like it when he did that tweet.

01:41:47   And I went to iCloud, I went to pages,

01:41:50   created a new document, it opened a new window,

01:41:51   it resized it, and it looked like a big, you know,

01:41:55   word processing window from 1997.

01:41:57   And I said, nope, close that up.

01:41:59   Like, it's not what I want.

01:42:02   And I don't even know, does it even support

01:42:04   all the like, you know, Sub-Etha edit,

01:42:06   kind of multiple people editing in the document

01:42:08   at the same time with different colored cursors

01:42:09   that we take for granted in Google Docs,

01:42:11   which is like, how old now?

01:42:12   - I think it's supposed to, but I don't know that it does.

01:42:16   - Like, that's an example of like, those apps may be great,

01:42:19   but you know, mind share wise,

01:42:21   I'm not even gonna consider them

01:42:22   'cause I assume they're not great

01:42:23   and I assume they're not reliable.

01:42:25   And interface wise,

01:42:26   they're trying to imitate a desktop application

01:42:28   and then that's not what I want out of a web application.

01:42:30   I want something that I can open in a tab

01:42:32   that we can all type in at the same time

01:42:33   and Google provides it

01:42:34   and it'll be up and fast and reliable

01:42:36   and won't do weird things

01:42:37   and it'll work in whatever browser I try to use it in.

01:42:40   - Right, it'll just be a little bit creepy.

01:42:41   - I mean, whatever.

01:42:42   Like the reason we're not using pages,

01:42:45   I think Casey suggested it

01:42:46   and you said you wanted to do it, I said, no.

01:42:48   It's not because I hate Apple.

01:42:50   It's because I know Google Docs works

01:42:52   And it's reliable.

01:42:54   And it's very difficult to gain that trust back,

01:42:57   even if you match it.

01:42:58   Even if you're better, it's hard to gain that trust back.

01:43:00   It's like, why does everyone use Google Hangouts?

01:43:02   'Cause they work.

01:43:03   'Cause it's a way that people can communicate

01:43:05   with each other.

01:43:06   And Google introduced this thing,

01:43:07   and they've steadily improved it.

01:43:08   And people have learned that's the thing that works.

01:43:11   Everyone gets a web browser.

01:43:13   If you can't figure out what web browser works,

01:43:15   just get Chrome.

01:43:16   We know that'll work.

01:43:17   Not too hard to set up.

01:43:19   And they get the job done.

01:43:22   Yeah, we'll see.

01:43:23   I don't know, I just, at some point,

01:43:25   at some point, Apple's gotta take this seriously.

01:43:28   And maybe they're taking it seriously already,

01:43:31   but they gotta show someone outside of Cupertino

01:43:35   that progress is being made.

01:43:37   And it's not, it's not an Apple's MO

01:43:41   to be self-deprecating or really admit things are wrong

01:43:45   unless they're pretty sure it's already fixed.

01:43:48   But man, some sort of, not even State of the Union,

01:43:52   but some sort of nod that says,

01:43:55   hey guys, this is pretty crummy,

01:43:58   but here's what we're doing and here's what's coming,

01:44:01   which is exactly the sort of thing

01:44:03   one would expect to see WWDC if that's a card

01:44:06   up their sleeve, but I don't know.

01:44:09   Running out of time on that,

01:44:10   and we're actually kind of running out of time on the show.

01:44:13   So let me scoot forward.

01:44:15   cellular fallback was in the maybe category on this wish list.

01:44:19   That has appeared on and off in betas of various versions of iOS.

01:44:23   And I have always loved it because, and cue the first world problem violin music, when

01:44:29   I walk out of the office, if I'm fiddling with my phone, after our office is on the

01:44:33   third floor of the building, as I walk down the stairs and eventually out of the building,

01:44:38   a lot of times my iPhone will try to cling to the office Wi-Fi and I'll be trying to

01:44:43   to peruse Twitter or something like that, and I don't get any response back because

01:44:48   my phone is being too persistent clinging to Wi-Fi. And there was a brief window of

01:44:53   time, like I said, when on a beta you could tell it, "You know, just go ahead and fall

01:44:57   back to cellular if you're not really getting an answer quick enough."

01:45:00   - Isn't that what multi-path TCP is for? - I believe so, but now you're outside my

01:45:04   wheelhouse. I've heard of it, but I'm not really sure about it. And man, I would love

01:45:09   for that to come back and be a thing. - I think it's supposed to be in 7. Maybe

01:45:13   Maybe it doesn't work as well as we want, I don't know.

01:45:15   - Well, and I think that, I don't know,

01:45:16   I'm waiting for John to correct me,

01:45:18   but I think multipath TCP is supposed to help,

01:45:23   but isn't that supposed to be like two different,

01:45:24   you could use cellular and Wi-Fi simultaneously

01:45:27   for speed boost?

01:45:28   I don't know, I should look this up.

01:45:30   - Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:45:32   Dash, Hover, and NatureBox,

01:45:35   and we will see you next week.

01:45:37   (upbeat music)

01:45:40   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:45:42   They didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

01:45:46   (Accidental)

01:45:47   Oh, it was accidental.

01:45:49   (Accidental)

01:45:50   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, 'cause it was accidental.

01:45:56   (Accidental)

01:45:57   Oh, it was accidental.

01:45:59   (Accidental)

01:46:00   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:46:05   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:46:15   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:46:19   E-N-T, Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C

01:46:24   U-S-A, Siracusa, it's accidental

01:46:30   They didn't mean to accidentally

01:46:35   Tech podcast so long.

01:46:40   I actually wrote down a couple things.

01:46:42   I have to look back and see if any of these are worthwhile.

01:46:45   Oh, what are they going to do about interapp communication?

01:46:49   I wasn't even on this person's wish list.

01:46:52   He doesn't care about it.

01:46:53   Do you want to talk about that weird iOS 8 side

01:46:55   by side on iPad thing that came up last week?

01:46:57   Yeah, I don't buy it.

01:46:58   Well, shouldn't we talk about it-- next week's show,

01:47:01   we'll do real predictions and talk about the whole keynote.

01:47:03   This was a good overview of iOS 8,

01:47:05   but we need to like, you know, say hardware announcements,

01:47:08   what software announcements, you know,

01:47:10   just the whole nine yards.

01:47:11   - New Mac Pros.

01:47:12   - And that'll be our last chance before W3C for next week.

01:47:15   So I think we should save iOS side by side

01:47:17   'cause I think it'll come up there.

01:47:18   - Yeah, maybe.

01:47:19   - I mean, 'cause that's something that's, you know,

01:47:21   I don't know if it has any more credence

01:47:23   than an anonymous email, but I,

01:47:25   it was on, it didn't,

01:47:26   didn't what's-his-name have it on 9to5 Mac?

01:47:29   - Yeah, it's like, that's,

01:47:30   I think the only reason anyone's even talking about it

01:47:32   is because Mark Gurman had it on 9to5

01:47:34   and he has a really good history.

01:47:35   Like he is a pretty reliable leaker of rumors.

01:47:40   - That's exactly how he likes to be known.

01:47:43   - Yeah, sorry.

01:47:44   - Reliable leaker.

01:47:45   - Pretty reliable leaker of rumors.

01:47:47   - Yeah, he has pretty reliable sources

01:47:48   and he chooses, like the things he chooses to report,

01:47:51   his record is pretty good.

01:47:53   So what I'm saying is he's good at his job.

01:47:55   So for him to report this as what seemed

01:47:59   like a pretty sure thing,

01:48:02   there's certainly some weight to that.

01:48:04   Whether it will actually ship is another story,

01:48:07   but it would not surprise me if the side-by-side thing

01:48:11   has at least been tested for iOS 8

01:48:15   and is being considered for inclusion in iOS 8.

01:48:17   Although I would imagine by now,

01:48:20   like a week and a half from the keynote,

01:48:22   they've probably already decided

01:48:23   whether it's gonna be there or not,

01:48:24   and whether it's gonna be mentioned or not, who knows?

01:48:27   - Yeah, I mean, yeah, you have to think

01:48:30   that something that big, if it appears in the keynote,

01:48:32   people are gonna expect it to ship.

01:48:33   But in the past, things have appeared in keynotes

01:48:35   and then just not shipped in the version of the OS,

01:48:38   but they've been more minor features.

01:48:39   Something this big, I feel like they'd have to commit to.

01:48:41   - It's different talking about it anyway.

01:48:44   I couldn't possibly care less about this feature.

01:48:45   I think it's not, maybe they've thought of something

01:48:49   that I haven't and it's gonna be amazing,

01:48:52   but I think the biggest problem with iOS multitasking

01:48:57   is not side-by-side apps.

01:48:59   it's the file system problem.

01:49:03   It's sharing the data,

01:49:04   it's like where do you keep the documents,

01:49:07   where do you keep files, do you keep files?

01:49:09   - You would assume something would be part of this though.

01:49:12   Like I don't have a place to put a thing

01:49:15   so that this app can write it

01:49:17   and this other app can read it, right?

01:49:18   But if you have them side by side

01:49:20   and they made something like,

01:49:21   oh, well, if you drag it from one thing to the other,

01:49:23   then we will make some temporary location,

01:49:26   put the thing in it, like some plumbing to make that happen.

01:49:28   I don't know if that will be part of side-by-side apps,

01:49:30   but when I see side-by-side apps,

01:49:32   I immediately think I would like to be able

01:49:34   to drag things between them.

01:49:35   And if that's not part of it in version one,

01:49:37   I would hope that if they keep going down that road,

01:49:39   they'll work on that.

01:49:40   And yes, that means that like the side-by-side part

01:49:42   is not what's making that work.

01:49:43   It's whatever the underlying system is they have

01:49:45   for having these solid applications

01:49:48   share data between each other.

01:49:49   But even a really stupid one

01:49:51   that's basically like copy and place with file,

01:49:54   temporary file backing, even that could go a long way

01:49:57   because that solves the problem of like,

01:49:59   where do I put this so that when I leave this app

01:50:02   and go into this other app, it can see it?

01:50:04   And there's no putting, if you drag it between there,

01:50:08   then it's just like, oh, well, this is a single action

01:50:11   and we have a framework that handles a single action

01:50:13   and it will do whatever it needs to do

01:50:14   to deal with the sandboxing stuff to make that happen.

01:50:17   - Yeah, that would definitely help a lot.

01:50:19   - I feel like there's some sort of

01:50:22   inter-app communication fix that none of us can conceive

01:50:25   And as per usual, as soon as Apple shows us,

01:50:28   we're gonna say, oh, of course that's the way it works.

01:50:30   But I mean, I don't know,

01:50:32   if there isn't any sort of

01:50:34   internet communication improvement,

01:50:36   well, first of all, Federico is probably going

01:50:38   to just quit the internet.

01:50:39   But secondly, it's just, I don't know,

01:50:42   what else is really, really egregiously broken about iOS,

01:50:46   other than bugs?

01:50:47   - And HFS Plus.

01:50:48   I'd trade it to rapid communication

01:50:50   for a new file system any day.

01:50:52   - For everyone other than John Syracuse.

01:50:54   - Oh, you'd like it too.

01:50:55   (laughing)

01:50:57   What else is going on?

01:50:58   - There's not really a lot going on, right?

01:51:00   I mean, this is the problem with trying to record

01:51:05   our crazy schedule of working around our travel needs

01:51:08   and everything and recording basically three episodes

01:51:11   in about eight days.

01:51:13   There hasn't been a lot happening during these eight days.

01:51:16   - Yeah, we're gonna miss the week before WNBC

01:51:18   when all the good leaks come out.

01:51:19   But anyway, we'll have to,

01:51:22   What, is the next recording a Thursday?

01:51:24   - Yes.

01:51:25   - We'll just have to, we have to make sure

01:51:26   that we go through all the things,

01:51:26   hardware announcements, software announcements,

01:51:28   and not get too bogged down in any one thing like,

01:51:31   you know, the split screen iOS app.

01:51:32   - Have you guys met yourselves?

01:51:35   - For our homework, we should all have lists of things

01:51:38   that we think are going to be announced.

01:51:39   And we should just go through our list

01:51:40   and then we can go back and talk about the individual things.

01:51:43   - Okay, I'm sure that will work perfectly.

01:51:46   - Totally, we will definitely do our homework.

01:51:48   - And Marco will play Monument Valley

01:51:50   and everything will be fine.

01:51:52   Oh yeah, yeah, because everything that prevented me from playing it the last couple of weeks,

01:51:56   that's all gone now, so now I'll be able to play it.

01:51:58   Yeah, I'm saving all of my overcast complaints for future show, because I look at the activity

01:52:04   on the beta and most people are hitting on most of the things that, but I am trying to

01:52:07   use it.

01:52:08   Speaking of a complaint, this is not your fault, but...

01:52:09   I'm thrilled that you're trying to use it.

01:52:11   That alone is a compliment.

01:52:12   Yeah, I'm trying to use it.

01:52:14   I used it in my commute to work today, and this weekend I'm like, "Let me just set it

01:52:18   with my car with Bluetooth because if I'm gonna be using this iPod touch as my podcast

01:52:22   thing.

01:52:23   Your podcatcher?

01:52:24   Yeah, whatever.

01:52:25   And my car has Bluetooth support, and my iPod touch has Bluetooth, but they don't talk to

01:52:31   each other at all.

01:52:33   When I turned on the Bluetooth pairing thing on my car, it said, "Do you want to connect

01:52:36   to," and it said my wife's iPhone 5S, which apparently has been in the car before, and

01:52:40   the car is detected and is all ready to pair with it.

01:52:43   Does the car support music streaming?

01:52:45   like it used to be called H-U-D-P,

01:52:47   I don't know if it still is,

01:52:48   but does it support music streaming or just voice?

01:52:51   'Cause some cars, like I rented a Maxima

01:52:54   when I was in Phoenix a couple weeks ago,

01:52:56   and it had Bluetooth but only for phone calls,

01:52:59   which actually led me to think about,

01:53:00   it would be a really cool feature

01:53:02   if I could simulate a phone call over Bluetooth

01:53:05   but just play the podcast through it from my app

01:53:08   so that you could play it in cars

01:53:09   that didn't have that feature enabled.

01:53:12   But I don't know if that's possible with iOS.

01:53:14   It supports music streaming and handset pairing for voice, everything, but only with iPhones.

01:53:19   It doesn't even see my iPod touch.

01:53:21   Bluetooth is on, discoverable, everything, no devices detected.

01:53:24   So that was disappointing.

01:53:25   So I'm using the USB adapter for it, which is kind of crappy, but I'm still going.

01:53:29   Anyway, I have tons of complaints.

01:53:30   I'll tell you them all next time we see each other.

01:53:33   I'm honored, thank you.

01:53:34   But really, the beta people are really getting a lot of them.

01:53:37   You're getting a lot of good feedback from the beta.

01:53:39   And any time I have any complaint, I just go look through the beta feedback.

01:53:41   I'm like, "Yep, that person said that. I agree with that."

01:53:43   I mean, I can me-too them if you want me to vote, but mostly they're getting--

01:53:47   Yeah, actually that would help. Yeah, voting helps. Just file a bug and I'll mark it as

01:53:51   a duplicate.

01:53:52   I should put favorites, but we're doing it on Glassboard, so I'll put little faves next

01:53:56   to the ones that are like, "Can't tell what the hell's downloading, don't want it to play

01:53:59   when I tap on the thing because I just want us to do the description," all that good stuff.

01:54:01   Aw, thank you. I'm glad you agree with me on that.

01:54:03   Yeah, everyone agrees. Everyone agrees.

01:54:05   No, it's definitely going to play, but I'll give you a detailed disclosure button.

01:54:09   And you and your stupid many toolbar icons.

01:54:13   You're still holding the line on that.

01:54:15   Yeah, well, I don't want a room.

01:54:17   What it is, I just I'll complain about it after you release the thing.

01:54:20   If you don't end up falling back to the icon that you know

01:54:22   you should use, but refuse to.

01:54:24   No, I'm not going to do it.

01:54:25   But you should because it would work and everyone knows what it means.

01:54:27   You're right. But I don't want to use that icon.

01:54:29   I want to see it's it's an experiment.

01:54:31   I want to see if I can get along without using it.

01:54:32   I know. But why?

01:54:33   It's like it's like you're no settings in the magazine.

01:54:36   There's always one thing that you really like.

01:54:39   "God damn it, I'm gonna hold the line on this."

01:54:41   - Well, yeah, I always try experiments in my apps,

01:54:46   and sometimes they bomb out and don't work.

01:54:49   Most of the time, they bomb out and don't work,

01:54:52   but occasionally, they work really well,

01:54:54   and people end up loving my apps

01:54:59   for those occasional times where those things work.

01:55:01   So many of the little features

01:55:02   that people loved about Instapaper

01:55:04   were those kind of experiments.

01:55:06   I'll just wait for the support email influx of people

01:55:09   who can't figure out where the hell the thing

01:55:11   that's behind that button is.

01:55:12   - Yeah, we'll see.

01:55:13   (laughing)

01:55:15   - Anyway, I don't wanna disclose anything about the app,

01:55:20   so we'll talk more about it probably long after WWDC

01:55:23   when you start getting to the point where you either

01:55:25   wanna release it or talk about it more publicly.

01:55:27   - Yeah, I don't know when the hell I'm gonna release it.

01:55:29   I'm thinking maybe, I'm not even gonna give a date.

01:55:34   If I had to give a date--

01:55:35   I was just waiting.

01:55:36   - Yeah, if I had to give a date today,

01:55:39   seeing what I have to do in the next few weeks,

01:55:42   like just like life, like going to this conference

01:55:44   and family stuff and travel stuff.

01:55:47   - And iOS 8, I mean, forget it, just like.

01:55:49   - Yeah, iOS 8, like I'm thinking like,

01:55:51   I'll be lucky to get it out in July maybe.

01:55:54   - Plus you got plenty of plain old bugs in there.

01:55:57   Like this is what happens when it goes from a one user app

01:55:59   to like a 30 user app, they find all the bugs.

01:56:02   - Oh yeah, yeah, that's why.

01:56:04   It's amazing how many bugs have been found.

01:56:08   It's really quite shocking.

01:56:10   In my typical me naivety,

01:56:14   in my initial email to the testers,

01:56:17   I wrote something on the lines of,

01:56:19   I'm pretty sure this is pretty close to 1.0.

01:56:21   I'm mainly looking for bug fixes,

01:56:24   but feature-wise and design-wise,

01:56:25   I'm pretty sure this is pretty close to 1.0.

01:56:28   And yeah, it's nowhere close.

01:56:30   - You're just too close to it

01:56:31   because you understand the app entirely

01:56:33   and then you throw this thing in front of people who haven't been looking at it for months and it's like

01:56:36   You know, I don't understand how even even to this day. There's still features

01:56:41   I don't want you to explain them to me like but that I don't entirely understand

01:56:45   I'm able to get the app to do what I want, which is interesting

01:56:48   But the conceptually there are things in there that I don't understand at all

01:56:50   And it's like I could just ask Marco and he would explain it to me

01:56:53   But other people aren't gonna be able to ask you that you know what I mean?

01:56:55   So I'm trying to like see if as the betas progress it starts to reveal itself to me

01:57:00   But already I like it better than any other iOS podcast app with the UI that I've used

01:57:08   because I can configure it to let me manage my podcast the way I've been manually doing

01:57:12   it terribly, painfully, manually on my iPod Shuffle.

01:57:16   So thumbs up for the utility department there, but I may go back to my Shuffle if I get sick

01:57:21   of plugging this stupid USB thing into my car.

01:57:24   - Yeah, and the problem is that there's nothing I can do

01:57:28   really reliably to sync with desktop iTunes.

01:57:33   That's like a wall that podcast clients can attempt to,

01:57:37   like if you have a Mac client,

01:57:38   you can try to read the iTunes library,

01:57:40   it kind of works, it kind of doesn't.

01:57:42   On the iPhone, you can,

01:57:46   I haven't enabled this feature in the betas yet,

01:57:49   but one of the things I wanted to do

01:57:50   was like have an import from Apple Podcasts option.

01:57:54   And the problem is you can read the library

01:57:56   through public APIs, but only actual downloaded episodes.

01:58:00   So if you have a podcast that you've listened to everything

01:58:04   and deleted it all, that won't show up to me at all.

01:58:07   I have no way to tell that you're subscribed to a podcast

01:58:10   that currently has no episodes downloaded on your device.

01:58:13   So there's these limitations that it's just gonna make it

01:58:17   really, really hard to ever support iTunes importing

01:58:20   that's to a degree that people would expect it to work very well.

01:58:23   Yeah, I wish I could just configure playlists in Overcast and then they would magically

01:58:27   appear on my iPod Shuffle.

01:58:29   Your obsession with your iPod Shuffle is kind of comical.

01:58:31   Because it's so easy, I can clip it onto my clothes, it's a wearable.

01:58:36   Plug it right into my car.

01:58:39   The parts that are painful about it are trying to get songs on it ever, which is just super

01:58:44   painful, it's like torture, and accidentally hitting buttons on that stupid...

01:58:49   put the play/pause button in the middle of a circle trying to figure out which button

01:58:52   you're hitting, not accidentally hit forward or back.

01:58:56   The physical UI is crappy as well, but it's much easier than having to deal with it.

01:59:01   You know what I really need to get?

01:59:02   I really need to get a clicker headphone.

01:59:04   I keep saying that.

01:59:05   I've been saying it for years.

01:59:06   One of Apple's headphones puts a little clicker thingy on it.

01:59:08   Yeah, that's the problem.

01:59:10   And that's actually one of my big problems with the headphone market is for portable

01:59:15   headphones.

01:59:16   headphones that sound really good are all like, you know,

01:59:19   the full-size ones that you use at your desk

01:59:21   and they have like these big long cables.

01:59:23   Oftentimes the cables are coiled or they might have like

01:59:25   the giant quarter inch plug on the end

01:59:27   instead of a nice little eighth inch plug.

01:59:29   Almost none of the headphones that sound great

01:59:32   have the iPhone clicker.

01:59:34   And so the iPhone clicker, like it's, but it's,

01:59:37   the iPhone clicker is really, really useful

01:59:39   if it's not like you at your desk at your computer.

01:59:43   If you're out walking, if you're on a plane,

01:59:45   like you can keep the iPod or whatever in your pocket

01:59:48   and just have the clicker there to do all your control.

01:59:51   And there are just very few headphones that are both good

01:59:56   and have the clicker and have a good clicker.

01:59:59   Like 'cause there are different clickers.

02:00:01   Like Sennheiser makes a really good one,

02:00:02   AKG makes the worst one I've ever used in my life.

02:00:05   Some of the like fashion brands,

02:00:07   some of them have good ones,

02:00:08   like the ones I tried in the Apple store,

02:00:09   like some of them were good, some of them were awful.

02:00:12   It's, and as Dashie points out,

02:00:15   many headphones have detachable cords,

02:00:17   you can like kind of swap one in,

02:00:19   but most headphones don't have detachable cords.

02:00:22   So you're kind of like stuck either doing

02:00:23   like a really tiny sensitive soldering job

02:00:26   just to kind of hack your own cable on there

02:00:27   because it's a terrible idea,

02:00:29   or just use the cable that comes with it,

02:00:31   which will eventually fray somewhere internally and die.

02:00:34   - Well, maybe iWatch will solve this problem for me,

02:00:37   but like, basically the problem is like,

02:00:38   if you're doing, if you have,

02:00:39   listen to a podcast while you do dishes,

02:00:41   which is a reasonable thing to do,

02:00:43   and your spouse comes into the room, wants to talk to you,

02:00:45   you get to fish this thing out of your pocket,

02:00:47   hit the button, swipe to unsleep the device,

02:00:50   find the pause button and pause.

02:00:52   Compare it to just click on a clicker

02:00:55   or just tap the little button on, you know,

02:00:57   things that can become reflexes

02:00:58   because they're physical devices.

02:00:59   There's no way in hell I want to fish an iPhone

02:01:03   or an iPod touch out of my pocket

02:01:04   and interact with the UI to pause it.

02:01:06   And by the time I do that,

02:01:07   my wife is already rolling her eyes and saying,

02:01:09   Why are you always listening to podcasts?

02:01:11   - You know what you could do is you could just get an iPhone

02:01:13   that comes with the headphones with the clicker.

02:01:16   - Does it come with it?

02:01:17   - Yes.

02:01:18   - I don't think so.

02:01:19   - Yeah, they do.

02:01:19   - It does.

02:01:20   And then when you go into your car,

02:01:22   by the magic of Bluetooth,

02:01:24   you don't have to plug anything in.

02:01:26   - My wife has an iPhone 5S,

02:01:27   and I'm pretty sure there are no clicker headphones

02:01:29   in this house.

02:01:30   So you're thinking--

02:01:31   - There is not a debate in my mind.

02:01:33   - They're under it in the box.

02:01:34   You ever lift up the little white thing?

02:01:36   - Maybe I left them in the box,

02:01:37   but that's the case I gotta go fish those things out.

02:01:39   - Yeah, every iPhone has come with earbuds.

02:01:42   The first one even came with a dock.

02:01:44   But yeah, that was short-lived.

02:01:46   - No, of course they come with earbuds,

02:01:47   but with the clicker on them?

02:01:48   - Yeah. - With the clicker.

02:01:49   - I'm gonna go find that right after the show,

02:01:52   'cause I have not seen that.

02:01:53   - Yeah, every earbud set that has ever come with iPhones,

02:01:56   and every iPhone has come with earbuds,

02:01:58   they've all had clickers.

02:01:59   There have been a couple of generations of them,

02:02:01   but they've all had them.

02:02:02   - I can't believe you don't know that, Jon.

02:02:04   - There's one iPhone in this house,

02:02:06   or one iPhone 5S in this house,

02:02:07   and I was pretty sure it didn't come with clickers.

02:02:09   - She had a, she's had an iPhone for a while, I thought.

02:02:11   - She had a 4S and a 5S, and neither one of them--

02:02:13   - You're wrong.

02:02:14   - Maybe she never used the headphone.

02:02:15   I mean, it's conceivable they're still sitting

02:02:17   in the package coiled up.

02:02:18   I'm just saying I've never seen them in the house.

02:02:19   Or maybe she's got them and hides them from me.