63: I Hold My Children To A Higher Standard


00:00:00   What the hell's on the live stream right now that everyone's freaking out about?

00:00:02   Warm it up, Chris!

00:00:03   I'm about to- Jesus.

00:00:04   We're not live yet, right?

00:00:08   We do have some follow-ups.

00:00:10   Something happened a few hours ago, thank goodness, because otherwise this would have

00:00:13   been a short show.

00:00:14   But yeah, we do have some follow-ups.

00:00:17   So, Jon, would you like to tell us about how people do or do not play games?

00:00:22   Yeah, last week I mentioned the average age of gamers and none of us knew what it was,

00:00:28   if someone wrote it in the chat room, I didn't notice, so I apologize for that.

00:00:31   But I looked it up, you know, it's not hard to find this information, so here are the stats.

00:00:36   This was in regards to both of you saying that you had grown out of playing games,

00:00:39   and me saying that's ridiculous, because most people who play games are even older than you,

00:00:43   or adults. Wait, hold on. Neither of us said we grew out of games. That's going to get us

00:00:49   some feedback, which it already has, which is not accurate.

00:00:53   I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something like you just felt like you were

00:00:57   out of it. Anyway, everyone responding thinks that's what you said. So obviously there was

00:01:00   a miscommunication and you can feel free to clarify because they keep saying, I agree with

00:01:03   Casey and Marco, I also grew out of games. Like we're seeing those responses. Again,

00:01:07   that doesn't mean that's what you said. But that's clearly the message that people were getting.

00:01:10   What we both said was that we didn't see games, correct me if I'm wrong Casey, that we didn't see

00:01:16   games as like a juvenile thing that you would grow out of, but rather we played games for a long time.

00:01:22   And then we, you know, in recent years or, you know, after we left college or whatever,

00:01:26   we just didn't choose to spend our time playing games or didn't have the time to play games

00:01:30   anymore. So it's not necessarily a growing out of it, because that implies that it's,

00:01:34   you know, like a juvenile thing. It's more that we just chose not to spend our time doing that

00:01:39   anymore. Yeah, I would agree with that. Our priorities shifted. Right. It's like the same

00:01:43   result, but with a different reason and with less judgment in the reason. Initially, one of you said,

00:01:50   I don't know. I guess I just grew out of it. Maybe that was a joke. And yes, later you did say that

00:01:54   at least Marco said that he didn't think they were juvenile or anything, but everyone latched on to

00:01:58   the growing out of it angle. But anyway, here is the information I was trying to get across.

00:02:01   This is the average age of gamers, and no one else knew what it was. The average age of game players,

00:02:06   according to the Entertainment Software Association, which is a trade association

00:02:10   that tracks these type of things for video games, is 31 years old. This is the United States

00:02:17   stats only, I think it's only US. Anyway, the average age of the US population is 37.2. So,

00:02:22   yes, the average age of the people in the United States is slightly older, but I think that makes

00:02:27   sense considering video games were introduced partially into the lives of many people who are

00:02:31   alive today, so you don't have a sample, you know, everyone alive wasn't born when video games were

00:02:36   introduced. The ratios are 52% male, 48% female, and out of the most frequent game purchasers,

00:02:43   The ratios are exactly even, 50/50 male/female.

00:02:46   They say 59% of Americans play video games.

00:02:50   And here are some stats and breakdowns.

00:02:52   Women over 18 are 36%.

00:02:54   Boys 18 or younger are 17%.

00:02:57   So twice as many adult women play games as juvenile boys do.

00:03:02   And they say 51% of U.S. homes have a game console,

00:03:05   and there's an average of two game consoles in each house that has any.

00:03:10   So, like I said, most game players are more or less our age.

00:03:13   I'm older than 31.

00:03:14   You guys are also-- you're both older than 31, right?

00:03:17   I am 31.

00:03:18   Yep.

00:03:18   There you go.

00:03:19   So you are exactly the average age of a gamer.

00:03:21   And I think it makes sense, because people your age, Marco,

00:03:24   and my age are basically like--

00:03:26   video games were invented more or less when we were young.

00:03:28   By the time we were old enough to play them, they were popular.

00:03:32   We played them.

00:03:33   We grew up.

00:03:33   We continue to play them.

00:03:34   Whereas people who were 30 years old before the Atari 2600

00:03:39   was introduced are much less likely, I think,

00:03:41   to have gotten into it.

00:03:42   So we are sort of the first generation of people to have grown up with games and it makes sense that we continue to play

00:03:46   them

00:03:47   Whereas the people who are sort of ahead of us may have never gotten into it at all

00:03:51   And I think I made all these points in the last show people talking about growing out of games and stuff

00:03:55   And tweeting about it and so on and saying well I do it

00:03:58   I don't do it as much now as I used to

00:04:00   You may grow out of the games that you played when you were a child in the same way you grow out of the books

00:04:05   That you read or you don't read little golden books anymore

00:04:07   You don't watch a Hannah-Barbera cartoons

00:04:09   Anyway, like there are many things you did as a child that you grow out of

00:04:11   but video games are a medium and they're fairly diverse.

00:04:16   And so even though you, of course, you don't have the time to play games that you use,

00:04:20   because you don't have time to do anything. You don't have time to just

00:04:22   pick any sort of leisure time activity. Of course, you have more time than that when you're a kid.

00:04:26   But as you get older, you will like different games, just like you like different movies and

00:04:31   different television shows and different books. And that, I think, is natural.

00:04:35   I think a lot of the people who say, "Well, I grew out of games. All I do now is..."

00:04:40   And then they insert like the three games that they play, but I barely have time for that

00:04:43   Well, yeah, so of course you barely have time, but if you're still playing games like that

00:04:46   Then you didn't really grow out of games. You just grew out of the games that you played as a child

00:04:50   It's true that some people never go out of the games. They played as a child. Maybe they played super mario

00:04:53   Bellas as a child they love super mario to this day and they keep playing it. That's fine, too

00:04:57   Same thing with books. I mean how many adults out there read young adult books as like

00:05:02   you know and love them like the harry potter series is a good example or a lot of these things even like the

00:05:07   Hunger Games and stuff like that. A lot of these books are technically young adult books,

00:05:10   but many adults enjoy them. Did they not grow out of that? Should they have grown out of books? Should

00:05:14   they have grown out of those specific books? I don't think it's an important distinction. But

00:05:18   the idea that games are something that most people played when they were a kid and don't

00:05:23   play anymore, I think is not borne out by the statistics, at least in the United States.

00:05:27   Do people count as gamers if they just have like Angry Birds and throw it on their phones

00:05:33   versus a console game or a PC game?

00:05:36   Is there a distinction and should there be a distinction?

00:05:39   And maybe the answer is no.

00:05:41   But should there be a distinction between people

00:05:43   who have a couple of casual games on their phone

00:05:46   versus people who own dedicated gaming hardware

00:05:49   or have bought a $40 or $50 game before?

00:05:53   - I don't think they're making those kind of distinctions.

00:05:56   I think they consider all games games and so would I.

00:05:59   If you say, well, I don't play games, all I do is

00:06:01   and then you insert some iOS game

00:06:02   that you obsessively play in every moment of your spare time.

00:06:04   Like, yeah, you play games.

00:06:06   They do add information on consoles,

00:06:09   which you would consider, like, that's not casual, right?

00:06:11   I don't know if that's still true,

00:06:12   but like, this thing is saying 51% of homes

00:06:14   have a game console in them.

00:06:16   Someone in those homes is playing those games, right?

00:06:19   And so it's, you know, it's not like,

00:06:20   well, 51% of homes have game consoles,

00:06:22   but the only people who play game consoles

00:06:24   are the 17% of gamers who are male and younger than 18.

00:06:28   Like, that seems unlikely.

00:06:29   But anyway, I count them all as games.

00:06:30   There's iOS, there are plenty of legitimate games on iOS.

00:06:34   I mean, maybe they're not counting like Solitaire and Minesweeper, but I think maybe these days

00:06:39   those have sort of fallen by the wayside.

00:06:41   But yeah, I don't think there's a useful distinction between them.

00:06:44   That's not a real game.

00:06:45   That's not a real book.

00:06:47   That's just a, I don't know, a mystery novel, a romance novel.

00:06:50   Do these not count as real books or something?

00:06:52   It has to be Tolstoy.

00:06:53   A game is a game is a game.

00:06:56   Fair enough.

00:06:57   Actually, I do have a question for you.

00:06:58   Does Tina get involved in any of the video gaming around your house?

00:07:03   She plays games on her phone a lot, and I think that's where she plays the majority

00:07:07   of her games, but at various times she has been very into, as an adult, very into both

00:07:11   console games and computer games.

00:07:14   But these days, any time she—I don't want to reveal her dirty gaming secrets, but I

00:07:20   would say certain iOS games that have the ability to get their hooks into people have

00:07:25   gotten their hooks into her.

00:07:26   And so she is very susceptible to that.

00:07:28   I don't approve of most of the games that she plays, but she definitely does play them.

00:07:32   Fair enough.

00:07:33   Now what about your kids?

00:07:34   Because I know your son, last I heard, is really into Minecraft.

00:07:39   Is that still the case?

00:07:41   Yes, Minecraft has destroyed his life and ours.

00:07:46   He had a very diverse gaming education up until the age of, I guess, nine.

00:07:51   Sometime in his ninth year of life, Minecraft came in and destroyed everything else having

00:07:57   to do with his life.

00:07:58   He is obsessed with Minecraft.

00:07:59   Has he played any game other than Minecraft recently?

00:08:03   I don't think so.

00:08:04   He's totally obsessed.

00:08:06   And neither your son nor daughter got into the Wii U very much?

00:08:09   Well, I mean, that's the other—when his friends come over, he plays the Wii U with

00:08:13   his friends, because I guess Minecraft is not as much of a social game.

00:08:17   So he does still play that, and I assume the next—recently I've been playing games

00:08:22   that he can't play with me, but I'm assuming the next game that we can all play together

00:08:25   comes out, he'll play with me, like the next Zelda game or—what do you call it,

00:08:29   God, I can't even remember the name anymore, because the Last Guardian, if that ever comes

00:08:33   out, he'll play that with me.

00:08:35   But he's not clamoring to play those games.

00:08:36   We have all his game consoles hooked up, and I've been playing games on them more than

00:08:40   he has.

00:08:41   But yeah, it's natural for kids his age to get obsessed with things like this, and

00:08:46   just ask Marco with his total annihilation units and everything.

00:08:49   You get really—at a certain point, you get really into one game.

00:08:52   Like, yeah, you like lots of games, but then a certain game comes and it absorbs you.

00:08:56   This has happened with Minecraft.

00:08:57   My daughter, I keep trying to get her to play games many, many times on many different consoles

00:09:02   and on the computer.

00:09:03   She'll play a little bit of kind of casual games on iOS, but she's just not into it.

00:09:08   I don't want to really push it, but I keep putting them in front of her.

00:09:11   I actually had her play Monument Valley, and that, I think, was about her speed.

00:09:14   I still haven't played that yet.

00:09:16   She just turned seven.

00:09:18   I did buy that game and have not even opened it.

00:09:20   Like now, ever since iOS 6, I believe, added that new badge on apps so that you could tell if you have an app that you've never launched before,

00:09:28   I've really been shamed by those badges on my phone because it's all games.

00:09:34   And there's like, there's, I probably right now on my phone probably have like seven or eight games that I bought in the last six months that I haven't even launched yet.

00:09:43   Like, I want to be a gamer in theory, but I never decide to spend the time doing that.

00:09:49   Monument Valley is actually a great example of an application that takes advantage of

00:09:54   retina.

00:09:55   They go, "Oh, it doesn't matter for games.

00:09:57   Who cares?

00:09:58   Half of those are low-res, 3D things scaled up to..."

00:10:00   But Monument Valley has graphics that really benefit from the retina resolution, because

00:10:06   they're just such beautiful little finely detailed things.

00:10:10   It's not like a typical 3D game with stuff flying all over the place.

00:10:14   It's very precise, and it looks great in retina, I think.

00:10:18   The game itself, I think it's more of a casual game.

00:10:21   I think it is very beautiful and interesting, but it's way too easy for anyone who's an

00:10:27   actual experienced gamer and plays games a lot.

00:10:31   And it's a little bit short.

00:10:32   I don't really care about length.

00:10:33   It's not like I'm buying it for the length.

00:10:34   If it was short and fulfilling, I feel like it just...

00:10:38   should have been a little bit more there in terms of the overall experience. Maybe if it was harder

00:10:42   and I had more of a challenge, but I recommend it for lots of people who find the games that I enjoy

00:10:48   too challenging. So I think that's why I had my daughter play. It's like, well, you'll be able to

00:10:52   play this. You'll be able to do well and it will challenge you a little bit. I think you'd be bored

00:10:57   by it, Margot, but you should still just launch it just to look at the graphics because, like I said,

00:11:00   it is the rare game that I can't even imagine on a non-retina screen being half as nice looking.

00:11:08   So you said that it's probably way too easy for an experienced gamer, so now a little

00:11:15   concern that I won't be able to handle it.

00:11:17   You will, it's not.

00:11:18   I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

00:11:20   I need to try it.

00:11:21   I haven't bought it yet.

00:11:22   I keep forgetting about it anytime I'm sitting in front of my phone or iPad just goofing

00:11:26   off.

00:11:27   I need to get it.

00:11:28   Although, I don't know.

00:11:29   Maybe my things are skewed, because I have seen tweets from people talking about not

00:11:33   so much getting stuck, but having difficulty, and I can't tell if they're joking.

00:11:36   So maybe my idea of what's difficult and what's not is totally skewed.

00:11:39   So one of you should just play it.

00:11:41   Just play through two levels, it'll take you five minutes.

00:11:42   And just tell me, wasn't that like, there's almost no choice.

00:11:46   Like it leads you, it is very linear.

00:11:50   There's not many places that you can go wrong.

00:11:52   I mean, the same could be said of Journey, but it's different.

00:11:56   Anyway, try it.

00:11:58   Homework for you two.

00:11:59   If I try the first two levels and it takes me 35 minutes, should I not admit that?

00:12:03   It will not.

00:12:04   The first level will take you 30 seconds,

00:12:05   the second level should take you about two minutes.

00:12:07   - One more quick theory about gaming

00:12:11   and losing interesting gaming over time.

00:12:14   And maybe this is just me, I don't know.

00:12:16   And Jon, I'm sure you're gonna have

00:12:17   a good explanation for this.

00:12:19   I've found that one of the biggest factors

00:12:23   I think that got me out of gaming,

00:12:24   and maybe it's just coincidence

00:12:25   'cause it overlapped my age progression

00:12:28   and my work progression,

00:12:29   but one of the things I think got me out of gaming

00:12:31   is so many of the types of games that I enjoyed

00:12:35   fell out of favor and we would get

00:12:38   almost none of them made anymore.

00:12:39   So for example, I love 2D platformer games.

00:12:43   Sonic, Mario, any of the good 2D platformers, I love those.

00:12:47   But almost nobody makes 2D platformers anymore.

00:12:49   - Incorrect.

00:12:50   - Well, hold on, hold on.

00:12:52   And I did play that awesome one on Xbox Live,

00:12:53   the Shadow Complex, I think it's called.

00:12:55   I did play that one and loved it.

00:12:58   So for a while-- and maybe now the indie scene

00:13:02   is getting this back, fortunately.

00:13:04   But for a while, once the 3D systems came out,

00:13:08   the PlayStation, the N64, the Saturn,

00:13:11   it became-- 2D platformers basically

00:13:15   went extinct for a while.

00:13:17   And the same thing happened with RTS games,

00:13:20   where I loved RTS games, as you mentioned in my Total

00:13:23   Annihilation phase earlier.

00:13:25   loved RTS games through my, through almost my entire teenage

00:13:28   hood, if that's a word. And, and then RTS has kind of stopped

00:13:34   being made very well after maybe 2003, 2004-ish. Like, Supreme

00:13:40   Commander was kind of, was like a big one that was awesome, but

00:13:42   nobody bought it. And then they kind of went by the wayside as,

00:13:45   as fantasy and MMOs kind of took over. And so like that kind of

00:13:51   bothered me too and and and now like iOS and I also I also love turn-based

00:13:56   strategy games but those are very few and far between and are you almost never

00:14:00   commercial hits and now with iOS like some of the best casual games is you

00:14:07   know are they used to be great in iOS you get them for like five bucks and

00:14:10   they were awesome and now they've all been ruined with freemium and free-to-play

00:14:14   and all that crap and so I wonder like you know is this just me am I am I just

00:14:19   kind of missing the new stuff because I stopped looking around like I do with

00:14:24   PHP or is this like is this a legitimate reason why I've been kind of kicked out

00:14:29   of gaming for a while I don't know well there's two there's two things here one

00:14:33   there are genres that become more and less popular over time think of in terms

00:14:39   of movies like murder mystery movies where the whole plot of the movie is

00:14:43   someone is murdered and you have to figure out who it is you don't see a lot

00:14:45   of them anymore. You do see some of them, but that genre has become less popular over

00:14:51   time. So that does happen. And it comes in cycles, you know, what's popular now may not

00:14:54   be what's popular 50 years from now and goes around in circles. On that front, by the way,

00:14:59   the reason I said incorrect for the 2D games is right now there's a massive renaissance

00:15:03   in 2D platformers, which I don't particularly like because I'm not into 2D platformers,

00:15:06   but they're all over the place. And not just indie games. Nintendo has been putting out

00:15:10   brand new 2D Mario games that I enjoy way less than their 3D versions and there's just

00:15:16   a constant stream of them and those are not indie things, those are like, you know, they're

00:15:20   Nintendo flagship titles and tons of indie ones.

00:15:23   So if you're into 2D platforming, like, you cannot throw a rock without hitting a 2D platformer.

00:15:29   But one of the genres you mentioned, real-time strategy, the type of real-time strategy game

00:15:33   you're talking about, like, isometric sprite-based, you know, 2D map kind of thing, like even

00:15:40   before the age of 3D games.

00:15:41   Hey, wait.

00:15:42   Hang on a second.

00:15:43   Total Annihilation was none of those, by the way.

00:15:45   Go ahead.

00:15:46   All right.

00:15:47   I don't know what vintage your real-time strategy games are, but yes, they eventually went 3D

00:15:50   and you could, yeah.

00:15:52   Anyway.

00:15:53   They became less popular.

00:15:54   A lot of the reason they became less popular is because computers became more able to do

00:15:58   the genres that became more popular.

00:16:00   So once first-person shooters started to take over the entire universe and you could do

00:16:03   any genre in first-person perspective, so there was first-person everything, real-time

00:16:09   strategy games became less popular. They're still out there. I mean, there's still StarCraft.

00:16:14   There's the things that they've kind of, you know, that same type of perspective you'll

00:16:17   see, not that Diablo is not a real-time strategy game, but it's a similar perspective in that

00:16:21   you're looking down on what looks like a little board and clicking on people and doing things.

00:16:26   Yeah, if you get really into a particular game and a particular genre and a particular

00:16:32   implementation of that genre, because people will be like, "Well, I like real-time strategy

00:16:35   games, but I don't like the ones that do X, Y, and Z. I only like the ones that, like,

00:16:37   when I was, I think I talked about myth on a past show, about how much I liked it and

00:16:41   it was so different than other RTS games. If you're into those specifics, you may have

00:16:45   to wait for another one of those things to come around, but what I would say is that

00:16:49   the things you like about that type of game exist in other games, and you shouldn't really

00:16:53   be married to the genre. Like, if you just like watching murder mysteries, it's like,

00:16:58   what is it that I like about murder mysteries? Do I like the fact that someone gets killed

00:17:02   and I could get the same thing out of a horror movie? Do I like the fact that there's suspense

00:17:05   and I could get it out of a different kind of thriller or am I just looking for a puzzle that I have to solve and

00:17:10   Instead I should be watching the you know M. Night Shyamalan movies with a stupid twist

00:17:13   I mean like what you were getting out of those games the things you enjoy systemizing things

00:17:17   Micromanaging things you know do you enjoy like working the tech trees?

00:17:21   There's a lot of games you can play now perhaps like a role-playing game with a big crafting tree and like character

00:17:26   Develop like you may be able to get the same experiences out of different types of games

00:17:31   Or it may be that you just really like real-time strategy games

00:17:33   and you just have to wait until something like that becomes popular again.

00:17:36   That's conceivable too.

00:17:37   And like I said, it's the same thing in every other medium.

00:17:40   What kind of books are popular now?

00:17:42   What kind of movies?

00:17:43   What kind of TV shows?

00:17:44   I mean, look at TV for crying out loud.

00:17:45   If you are totally into formulaic half-an-hour sitcoms, it's there.

00:17:49   So hard to find now, but everyone has to have some sort of twist or angle, and the one-hour

00:17:53   drama is hugely popular now.

00:17:56   The one-hour drama was like an aberration 20, 30 years ago, and now it's like everything

00:18:00   has to be this gritty one-hour drama.

00:18:02   Like they make a show about Sleepy Hollow and it's like this big gritty thing, you know

00:18:05   and whereas like

00:18:06   The old sitcoms are they used to be everywhere now

00:18:09   They're very rare and each one of them has some weird twist about them

00:18:12   So I think that's part of it

00:18:14   But like I said, like gaming is not as broad as books movies or TVs not yet anyway, but it's getting close

00:18:20   But there's probably something out there that you would get the same type of enjoyment out of and who knows like maybe if you're like

00:18:25   Oh, they don't make murder mystery movies anymore. All of a sudden you start going to see like, you know

00:18:30   goofy comedies, you may find out, hey, I never watched goofy comedies before, but I really enjoy them. So there's a lot out there.

00:18:35   You know, the funny thing for me is, to take this aside just a smidge, is that I find that I get

00:18:42   really into certain games, but only for a very small window of time. And most recently it's been iOS games, but

00:18:49   I think I mentioned last episode, or I might have, that I played Metal Gear Solid

00:18:55   the whole way through. I used to love the Zelda games. Well, I played Ocarina of Time,

00:19:00   and I don't think I ever had whatever it was for the Wii. But I'll find these games that I just

00:19:05   am obsessed with. So I'm looking at my iPhone, and I only have a handful of games on there,

00:19:08   but like, you know, right when the iPhone came out, I played the crap out of flight control for

00:19:13   forever. When the incident came out, I loved that. Letterpress loved that. Tiny Wings.

00:19:19   Ramp Champ by the Icon Factory, which is a much better game than anyone, well,

00:19:23   then a lot of people gave it credit for threes when that came out recently. So all these games,

00:19:27   I just madly in love with them and I'll play them to death. Not unlike what I do when I find a song

00:19:33   I like, and then I just never look back. So I haven't played threes in like a month and I was

00:19:39   playing it nonstop for two or three weeks. And maybe that's just my personality, but I don't

00:19:43   know. It's just the way I've approached gaming lately. You're in the middle of a letterpress

00:19:47   game against me, Casey. So anytime you want to move like six months, I was about to say,

00:19:52   I haven't opened that that happened forever. It's not that it's bad

00:19:54   Like I still do enjoy it when I open it

00:19:57   But I just never think about it anymore and I think I heard Marco say that you're the same way like I get these

00:20:02   Obsessions, but then just as quickly as I get the obsession then it's done

00:20:07   That's why I like with my limited time as an adult and a parent and all this other stuff

00:20:11   The type of game that I gravitate to are two kinds one is the kind that I can just spend for a couple of minutes

00:20:17   Of fun like whatever less as asynchronous turn-based games like letterpresser

00:20:20   Words with friends and threes even though it's single-player. You know it's just like yeah, whatever just some quick fun and the other type of

00:20:26   Game I like is the kind

00:20:27   Kind of like the like true detective or the new popular thing of one hour dramas that have a season long arc that that that ends

00:20:34   And then the cast changes

00:20:36   There's a couple of shows doing that now and that I think is a good model because people like I don't want to invest in

00:20:41   This show that could go on some X number of seasons that might not have a satisfying ending or whatever like where I met your mother

00:20:49   I don't even watch that show.

00:20:51   But it's like, well, if people don't have a lot of time,

00:20:54   let's make a one-hour thing, a one-season arc

00:20:58   that you can consume as a thing and be satisfied with.

00:21:01   And so the video games that I--

00:21:03   the non-casual video games that I play

00:21:05   are ones that are going to give me

00:21:07   an experience for a defined amount of time.

00:21:08   And it's not going to be open-ended.

00:21:10   And I'm going to play through it.

00:21:11   I mean, not necessarily that they're story-based games,

00:21:12   because Journey is not really a story-based game.

00:21:14   But that's two hours of gameplay.

00:21:16   In and out, that is the perfect--

00:21:18   You know, it's cheap, I can get it as a digital download.

00:21:21   Amazingly enjoyable for me, loved it, two hours, done.

00:21:24   And even something like The Last of Us,

00:21:25   I think I only, I don't remember how many hours

00:21:26   I put into that, maybe 16 or 11 or 20,

00:21:28   I don't remember what the stat was,

00:21:30   but that's a little bit longer,

00:21:31   but it's a single player,

00:21:33   there is a multiplayer aspect that I don't care about,

00:21:35   single player game with a story,

00:21:36   I play it as a beginning, middle, and end, and I'm done.

00:21:39   It's not like I feel guilty, like,

00:21:40   "Oh, I never go back to it."

00:21:41   Yeah, I finished it, I played the game.

00:21:43   Like, there is a, it is a unit of entertainment,

00:21:45   This just happens to be a longer unit than a movie, but actually a similar length to

00:21:49   watching True Detective, for example.

00:21:52   We are sponsored this week by our friends at Fracture.

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00:22:35   In fact, I don't think you even could frame them.

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00:22:42   and it is a complete product already.

00:22:44   So if you look into buying a frame or getting framed,

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00:22:52   It looks nice, it looks modern,

00:22:53   and the print quality is fantastic.

00:22:55   - Well, let me actually, let me interrupt you.

00:22:57   I was at your house recently

00:22:58   and got to see fractures for the very first time.

00:23:01   I keep meaning to order one, or order several actually,

00:23:04   of my Instagram, some of my Instagram pictures,

00:23:06   but I can't freakin' pick which ones I want,

00:23:09   which is a personal problem.

00:23:10   But anyway, I saw the ones at your house,

00:23:12   And I expected them to look good or even great,

00:23:16   and they looked better than great.

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00:23:20   - Yeah, I'm very happy with them.

00:23:21   That's why I keep, even though some of these I've ordered

00:23:25   outside of coupon code times,

00:23:27   I still order them because I like them.

00:23:29   Anyway, all right, so,

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00:23:35   See, there isn't a whole lot of great stuff

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00:24:00   Really fantastic stuff, love their prints.

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00:24:06   Thank you very much.

00:24:07   So we should take note that we have finally the three of us figured out a

00:24:14   design that we felt was worthy of printing a t-shirt mostly because we

00:24:19   wanted to get it out for WWDC like all the cool kids do and we were running out

00:24:23   of time.

00:24:23   So we have t-shirts available for sale.

00:24:27   It we are recording this on the last day of April of 2014 and they are going to be

00:24:34   available for purchase until May 11. Is that right?

00:24:38   Something like that, yeah.

00:24:39   Yeah, they have a little over a week, so we'll talk about this one more time and only one

00:24:42   more time on the next episode. They are $19. They have basically a stylized version of

00:24:49   our show art on the front and a little surprise on the back. I don't know if you want to talk

00:24:53   about that or you want to leave it as a small surprise. That's up to you, Marco.

00:24:56   I think you should check it out. I think you should go to the final URL of the thing is

00:25:02   teespring.com/accidental. However, we made a little shortcut in case you don't know how

00:25:08   to spell teespring. If you go to ATP.fm/shirt, it will redirect you to the shirt. So ATP.fm/shirt.

00:25:17   You must buy this shirt within the next roughly 10 days or so. And actually by the time this

00:25:22   episode comes out, it's gonna be more like eight days. So hurry up and buy the shirt.

00:25:26   We've already sold a lot through past the goal. So this is awesome. Thank you very much.

00:25:31   And so these will definitely be printed and made.

00:25:34   They will make it in time for the US for WWDC probably.

00:25:38   Internationally, it depends on where you live.

00:25:41   We've heard reports of some of them coming right before,

00:25:43   some of them coming right after.

00:25:44   So we can't really guarantee internationally.

00:25:46   But in the US, they should be there in time for WWDC.

00:25:51   And yeah, so check it out, teespring.com/accidental

00:25:56   or atp.fm/shirt.

00:25:59   And keep in mind that since we are so--

00:26:02   it's so difficult for us to pick a design that we like.

00:26:05   If we have shirts next year, it's

00:26:07   very likely that it will be a different design.

00:26:09   So even if you are living internationally

00:26:12   or aren't going to WWDC at all anyway,

00:26:15   don't worry so much about whether you're

00:26:17   going to get it in time for this year's WWDC.

00:26:20   If you order it now, you'll have it for next year's WWDC.

00:26:22   And next year's shirt, if there is one,

00:26:24   will very likely be different.

00:26:25   So this may be the only time to buy this shirt.

00:26:28   You can decide whether that's a good or bad thing when you go look at the shirt, but please

00:26:31   do keep that in mind.

00:26:32   Because tons of people keep asking me if they want to order a Hypercritical shirts, and

00:26:36   I did Hypercritical shirts already, and I'm not sure I'm doing them again anytime soon,

00:26:41   if ever.

00:26:42   And those people should have ordered when they were available for sale, so don't let

00:26:44   this happen to you.

00:26:45   Order them when they're available for sale.

00:26:47   Yeah, and I also wonder, for those who are international, I have not tried this myself,

00:26:52   obviously, but I wonder if you could arrange with your hotel, "Hey, would you accept a

00:26:56   package for me or so on and so forth. So you might even be able to get it delivered to your hotel.

00:27:00   I know that is a possibility. So I mean, the hotels usually will charge for that.

00:27:04   But I know it is possible because I did that one year to get a shirt delivered to

00:27:08   the conference, to a hotel at the conference. But look into it anyway.

00:27:12   And also because, so Teespring is kind of like Kickstarter where they have like the buying period

00:27:18   for a limited time and then they do the whole run at once, they print them all and that's it. You

00:27:22   you can't order them after that. So it is very unlikely, I think, that we will get our act together and make a new design that we like in the next year.

00:27:30   So definitely, if you want a shirt anytime between now and next May, you should probably buy this one.

00:27:38   All right, thanks a lot.

00:27:41   Okay, so we were actually, I was a little nervous about not having a lot to talk about on this show,

00:27:47   And then just today Facebook decided to try their own hand at X callback URL.

00:27:53   Which was surprising for me anyway.

00:27:57   So they came out with Facebook app links and I should probably point out, I guess

00:28:01   it's the pulse, what is it like?

00:28:03   It's not a subsidiary of Facebook.

00:28:04   It's I'm not familiar with what pulse is, but I guess it came from there.

00:28:08   Do you guys know what that is?

00:28:10   Okay.

00:28:11   Good talk.

00:28:12   Well, anyway, so apparently it's some like sub section for lack of a better way of

00:28:16   phrasing it, Facebook.

00:28:18   And they came up with App Links.

00:28:20   And so one of you guys put this in the show notes.

00:28:23   And it's probably for the best if I read this very quickly.

00:28:26   Quote-- and this is from their website--

00:28:27   "With App Links, Facebook wants to standardize deep

00:28:29   linking to native apps by using special metadata attached--

00:28:33   excuse me-- added via HTML.

00:28:35   The basic premise of App Links is that if a user taps on a

00:28:38   link on a mobile device, and that link belongs to a website

00:28:41   that in turn offers the same content in a native app with

00:28:45   better features than a web view, the link could automatically redirect the user to the

00:28:49   app if installed on the App Store, with support for deep linking to content inside the app.

00:28:55   The goal, according to Facebook—actually, I guess it isn't from this site. Anyway,

00:28:58   the goal according to Facebook is to provide the best experience to a user who clicks a

00:29:02   link on a mobile device with features to control what happens when a link is clicked on iOS,

00:29:07   Android, or Windows Phone. Is that from Federico's write-up, actually?

00:29:10   Yeah, I think it is.

00:29:11   OK.

00:29:11   So I pasted in this paragraph.

00:29:14   First of all, I saw this Facebook app link thing

00:29:16   like 15 minutes before the show started,

00:29:17   so I know very little about it.

00:29:19   But I pasted in this thing because it sounds like something

00:29:21   I would never, ever want.

00:29:23   The idea that I'm on a web site, and I tap on a link,

00:29:27   and it takes me out of the web browser, puts me into an app,

00:29:30   and shoves me into some deep thing in the app.

00:29:32   The example in the video was like, say you're on a website,

00:29:34   and you see a movie, and you want

00:29:36   to know if it's playing towards you, and you tap on it.

00:29:37   And it launches a movie app and takes me into there.

00:29:39   I know that there are examples like,

00:29:41   yeah, it's annoying to have to go back to the home screen,

00:29:43   launch your ticket buying app,

00:29:45   do the same search you just did on the web.

00:29:47   But if I'm in a website and I found the thing,

00:29:50   I would like to buy it there on the web.

00:29:51   I hate that little banner that comes down and says,

00:29:54   hey, I know you're looking at our website,

00:29:56   but did you know we have an app?

00:29:57   You should try that.

00:29:58   The whole idea that the app could provide

00:30:00   better features than the web view.

00:30:02   Look, if I'm on a web browser and I'm doing stuff,

00:30:04   I wanna just do it on the web.

00:30:06   I'm not saying that native apps don't have a place,

00:30:07   but if I'm navigating around the web,

00:30:09   The last thing I want is to be chucked into an application,

00:30:12   deep linked or otherwise.

00:30:13   So I do not like the idea of this thing.

00:30:18   I'm assuming people are commenting on this

00:30:19   about the interapp communication thing

00:30:22   that maybe iOS 8 will do something about or whatever.

00:30:26   We'll talk about that in our WWC prediction show

00:30:29   in the future, I'm sure.

00:30:30   But that's about native apps talking to each other

00:30:32   and cooperating, multiple native apps coordinating

00:30:35   to get a single job done.

00:30:37   And I guess the web browser is one of those other native apps,

00:30:39   but if I'm on a web page, I don't like those two things

00:30:44   being-- I don't like switching between those two things.

00:30:46   I don't care how coordinated they

00:30:48   can be about where I jump back and forth.

00:30:50   I question whether jumping out at all

00:30:52   is ever the right thing to do.

00:30:54   Well, and see, generally speaking,

00:30:56   I would agree with you that if I'm in the browser,

00:30:59   it's probably a deliberate action,

00:31:01   and I want to remain in the browser.

00:31:04   And the app banners, whatever they're called, at the top,

00:31:07   They just get in the way and are very annoying, especially in the case that the app is already

00:31:11   installed.

00:31:12   Well, maybe less so if you're trying to advertise that you have an app.

00:31:15   In any case, the one time where I think this makes a lot of sense is if, for example, for

00:31:20   some reason I've browsed something in Safari and I end up on some really heavy media app.

00:31:26   Let's take Spotify, for example.

00:31:29   I'm probably going to want to listen to whatever the song or playlist or what have you is in

00:31:34   Spotify's app rather than in mobile safari. So for things like that, it makes sense. But other than that, I tend to agree with you, Jon.

00:31:42   I guess it's not the capability that's bad so much. It's just that I see the potential for abuse.

00:31:47   And that if there was a big badge that was like, "Open this up and insert name of native app here," and it was clear that that's what it was going to do, it's fine.

00:31:54   But these websites, these companies are so desperate to get you to install and use their app.

00:32:00   I don't know why they just, you know, better engagement with our, I'm not going to do Marco's voice, "Brains!"

00:32:05   Like, it's just annoying. It's like, I would rather you just make your website good, and I'll use your app if I want to, but like, now if we give them the ability to make every single link a potential minefield that's going to take you out into some native app, I'm not enthusiastic about this.

00:32:20   I'm not enthusiastic about this.

00:32:25   Yeah, I think definitely, I totally agree that

00:32:28   this has nothing to do with X callback URL

00:32:31   or internet communication, really.

00:32:33   That's a different problem.

00:32:36   I think there's a couple problems with this.

00:32:39   I agree with everything Jon said so far,

00:32:40   which is that, yeah, there are probably some conditions

00:32:42   where this is what you'd want as a user,

00:32:47   but there's also probably just as many, if not more,

00:32:46   where it's not what you'd want as a user.

00:32:48   And yeah, you could then prompt the user

00:32:50   to ask what they want,

00:32:51   but then that's more clunkiness, more complexity.

00:32:53   It's one of those things where,

00:32:56   I have a feeling this solves a problem

00:32:57   that Facebook thinks they have,

00:32:59   and they assume everyone else has the same problem,

00:33:01   but it doesn't really,

00:33:03   there's probably not a good problem

00:33:04   to be solved in a good way here.

00:33:06   Furthermore, I don't know how they could possibly get this

00:33:09   to work very well because,

00:33:11   or very effectively in the real world,

00:33:13   because the most common mobile browsers

00:33:15   are mobile Safari and Chrome,

00:33:17   at least the ones that are actually used for web browsing

00:33:20   instead of sitting in a drawer playing videos.

00:33:22   And I don't see, you know, Apple,

00:33:26   there's almost no chance in hell

00:33:28   they would ever implement this in mobile Safari,

00:33:30   so that's out.

00:33:31   Any chance of like, you know, a plugin architecture

00:33:34   in mobile Safari that would enable plugins for this

00:33:36   is probably also out.

00:33:37   Google implementing this in Chrome, maybe,

00:33:41   but Google hates Facebook,

00:33:43   so I don't know if that's gonna happen either.

00:33:45   What's in it for them? Probably nothing. Does this require browser support?

00:33:49   I didn't even read enough of it to know whether it requires browser support. Well in the documentation

00:33:53   I read through all the documentation and it did I didn't like it. I didn't think it was very good

00:33:57   I thought their examples were the

00:33:59   Examples are always contrived, but these were crummy. They were just crummy examples, but the way I understood it is if

00:34:06   You tap a link

00:34:09   In or if you end up on a page in a web browser

00:34:15   including like a UI web view in say Tweetbot for example,

00:34:18   then if you see all these meta tags, meta tags, whatever they're called, at the top of your of this HTML document,

00:34:25   you can say, oh I can build a URL based on the information in these meta tags and

00:34:32   make a check, you know with the with iOS and say hey does this URL, is this a URL that you know about?

00:34:38   And if so, just quietly, well, I guess not so quietly actually redirect into the app. So say I'm in Tweetbot,

00:34:44   I land on—I'm using a browser in Tweetbot—I land on a Spotify page,

00:34:49   then Tweetbot can say, "Oh, I see that there's this app link," or whatever it's called, and

00:34:54   I see that Spotify is installed on Casey's phone, so let me just punch you over to Spotify. Marco,

00:35:00   did you read into this at all?

00:35:01   No, I actually spent about five minutes before the show looking at this because I didn't see it before then,

00:35:06   but so I could be totally wrong on this. Yeah, I mean, that's the way I interpreted it.

00:35:11   hopefully we'll either get a lot of email saying I'm right or a couple emails saying I'm wrong.

00:35:16   Well, the key diagram on the site is the one that's like, "Hey, it works across, you know,

00:35:20   Windows Phone and Android and iOS." And like right away, well, Apple has no interest in this. And the

00:35:27   thing is if Apple has no interest in it, and I think as Renee tweeted, that's why the link to

00:35:31   Renee in our show notes is like doing this right before WWDC, there's a reasonable chance, I'm not

00:35:38   to say a good bet, but there's a reasonable chance that Apple might have some similar type of

00:35:42   thing having to do with maybe like a better version of xCallback URL or something.

00:35:46   Whatever Apple decides to do that's remotely in this area, that's what Apple's going to do,

00:35:50   that's what they're going to support, and that's what everybody on the iOS platform is going to

00:35:53   support. Making it cross-platform standard is so hard when one of the vendors, Apple,

00:35:58   is just going to ignore you forever and might potentially do its own thing. Because if Apple

00:36:03   does its own thing, people will do whatever the hell iOS supports because it is still by far the

00:36:08   most popular platform for games where people will actually give you money, or for applications,

00:36:12   not just games, but half games. Anyway, yeah, so I totally expect Apple to ignore this, and if Apple

00:36:19   ignores it, it's a non-starter for the Apple platform anyway, and that means it's never going

00:36:23   to be cross-cross platform. I know it's an open standard and blah blah blah, but good luck getting

00:36:26   Apple to sign in with that. Like, your best bet would be to get it to be supported as like a

00:36:30   W3C standard because Apple does support those. But something coming from Facebook and trying to

00:36:36   solve their cross-platform development difficulties, Apple is just not interested in that at all.

00:36:42   And that's not to say that Apple is the one who added that stupid annoying dialog box. And

00:36:46   I complained about that dialog box. It says, "Hey, download your app." But before they did that,

00:36:51   it was every individual website doing something even worse in client-side JavaScript to do the

00:36:56   the same feature. So really I'm mad at everybody who keeps trying to make me get their app.

00:37:00   Apple adding the feature to standardize it at least standardizes the annoyance and makes it like,

00:37:05   it doesn't slow down the browser as much because it's no longer terrible client-side JavaScript

00:37:09   running, but it's no longer a modal dialog box or something that would like animate,

00:37:14   but they wouldn't use this. The GPU is accelerated animation. So it would be like,

00:37:18   you know, JavaScript redrawing. Oh, it was bad. Yeah. So reading more on the Vitechy's article,

00:37:25   quoting again, "Apps that implement app links will be

00:37:28   able to scan a link that's been tapped by the user and,

00:37:30   in a matter of seconds, understand whether it can be

00:37:32   opened inside a native app through deep linking, fall

00:37:35   back to a web view, or offer a way to download the app from

00:37:38   the App Store." So this corroborates what I was

00:37:39   thinking earlier, that you're in Tweetbot.

00:37:41   You land on some page.

00:37:43   It looks at the page as HTML and says, hey, is there

00:37:45   something I can do with this or not, and then can handle it

00:37:48   and dump you into the app in question.

00:37:51   I mean, I guess that's nice.

00:37:52   but to both your points, without Safari supporting this,

00:37:55   I don't see how this is gonna be that fantastic.

00:37:58   - By the way, this also requires a page fetch.

00:38:00   It requires for, let's say you open a link in Tweetbot,

00:38:04   it requires Tweetbot to first fetch the HTML of the page,

00:38:07   parse it, look for these tags,

00:38:10   and then possibly offer you the option

00:38:12   to redirect into an app.

00:38:13   So that's pretty crappy.

00:38:15   - Yeah, the reason I put that quote in there,

00:38:17   that one that Casey just read,

00:38:18   was not because of the information in it,

00:38:19   but because I wanted to shame the copywriter

00:38:22   who wrote it, who's like-- so the little bit was like,

00:38:25   app links will be able to scan a link that's

00:38:27   been tapped by the user and comma in a matter of seconds,

00:38:30   comma.

00:38:30   Understand whether it can be opened in a matter of seconds.

00:38:33   I sure as hell hope not.

00:38:35   I know it's an expression, but the copywriter

00:38:38   is-- that's the wrong order of magnitude

00:38:39   for how long it should really take to scan for links in HTML.

00:38:42   Because if it really does take seconds,

00:38:44   there's a serious problem.

00:38:45   Well, and even the wording there, scan a link,

00:38:47   that's not really true.

00:38:48   It's fetch the contents of a link

00:38:50   and then look at the contents to see if maybe you can open it.

00:38:52   I mean, that's a different proposition.

00:38:55   I don't see this being widely adopted.

00:38:58   John, as you said, if there's no chance

00:39:00   that Apple's going to implement this, which I'm pretty sure

00:39:02   that's the case, then how much of a standard is it?

00:39:05   Facebook has a lot of this platform-itis going on,

00:39:08   and they always have.

00:39:09   This is nothing new.

00:39:10   Where Facebook always comes out--

00:39:12   Facebook and Apple both have their-- and Google and Amazon,

00:39:15   everyone-- they all have their own breed of arrogance.

00:39:18   And Apple's arrogance is well known and well documented.

00:39:22   Apple's arrogance is, we're just going to make our own thing

00:39:24   and you can make it a standard if you want to.

00:39:27   Facebook's arrogance is, we're going to launch

00:39:29   all these platforms and standards that are going to be useful

00:39:31   and implemented by everybody, even when that's almost

00:39:34   never actually the outcome to what they make.

00:39:37   And it almost always just serves them at best

00:39:40   and even they often abandon the things they make.

00:39:42   So, you know, it's, I think this is a nice sounding story,

00:39:47   But I don't see it being implemented by almost anybody

00:39:50   important, and certainly not widely enough to matter.

00:39:53   Yeah, Facebook is not a trusted actor in this relationship.

00:39:56   Right.

00:39:57   Because yes, they're trying to make an open standard,

00:40:00   but it's so clear that it is designed to solve a problem

00:40:03   that Facebook has, which is how do we

00:40:04   deploy our application on all the different platforms.

00:40:07   Apple does not have that particular problem,

00:40:09   or at the very least has it in a very small version

00:40:12   and that they still make iTunes for Windows.

00:40:14   But beyond that, they do not want

00:40:15   to deploy their software on every mobile platform.

00:40:18   So this isn't a problem they have.

00:40:19   And it's like, why would we get on board with this thing

00:40:23   that, yes, it's open and trying to be standardized,

00:40:25   but it clearly exists to serve Facebook

00:40:27   and will probably evolve to continue to serve Facebook

00:40:31   if we're not sure that-- the W3C is the only thing.

00:40:34   And even that is just like these big companies are all

00:40:37   on the whatever in these working groups for W3C

00:40:40   at each other's throats trying to fight for the little details

00:40:43   of what image elements can be used for multi-resolution images

00:40:47   on the web, and whether we should support Canvas

00:40:49   and all this other stuff.

00:40:50   And so that is a form in which they

00:40:52   feel like it's a more level playing field, where

00:40:54   all the big companies are at each other's throats trying

00:40:57   to deal with web standards.

00:40:59   And whatever gets through, more or less Apple implements.

00:41:01   But Apple also does the thing where it proposes a standard,

00:41:05   then implements it and ships it to millions and millions

00:41:07   of people, and says, well, we already kind of implemented

00:41:10   this and shipped it to everybody.

00:41:11   Does that help you guys think maybe you should adopt it

00:41:13   as a standard W3C?

00:41:16   It's not a-- yeah.

00:41:18   That's how standards work in the real world.

00:41:20   The sort of kumbaya, sit around the campfire,

00:41:24   think we're all going to get along type of thing.

00:41:26   Like, oh, Facebook released it at an open standard.

00:41:28   Everyone should use it now.

00:41:29   That's never what it's like.

00:41:31   So what is benefiting Facebook by having a standard way

00:41:37   with which to deep link into an app?

00:41:39   Because that's the ostensible premise behind this.

00:41:42   Not only that you can launch an app, which everyone knows how to do reasonably easily,

00:41:45   but here's a standard by which we define what data you're passing to that app,

00:41:51   or that needs to be passed to that app in order to get to the exact content you want.

00:41:54   So what's the play for Facebook here?

00:41:57   Well, it's pretty obvious. It's for Facebook's app.

00:41:59   It's so that, you know, if you...

00:42:01   Let's say, you know, Facebook obviously encourages sharing all their crap as much as possible.

00:42:05   Let's say you hit a sharing link in something that goes to a Facebook property.

00:42:10   they want to be able to launch one of their apps directly into that so that they control the whole experience and it isn't just showing their web page.

00:42:17   Or it goes right to their app and they get more information, or it's faster for the user so they don't have to go through the web first.

00:42:22   They clearly want this for themselves. I mean, that's why they did it.

00:42:26   Didn't Facebook just have, I was seeing tweets about it today, didn't they have their little developer PR thing or some kind of...

00:42:33   Yeah, it's called Fate.

00:42:35   Oh god, I didn't even think of it that way.

00:42:37   Anyway, like, I did not watch this speech thing, but from what I've seen from Facebook

00:42:43   in past months, I'm going to pretend that I did and pretend this is what they said.

00:42:47   And I imagine that this is all part of the strategy that they have to stop being a single

00:42:53   thing called Facebook, which is a website that you go to, or more abstractly an application

00:42:57   that you use through the web browser and other things, and start being a series of more special

00:43:04   purpose applications circling around this giant hub of information that they have about

00:43:09   everybody.

00:43:10   And so I think things like paper, paper didn't replace the Facebook app.

00:43:16   It just kind of augments it.

00:43:17   I think what they want to make is a fleet of mobile applications, a fleet of native

00:43:21   mobile applications that all cooperate and interoperate with each other and with the

00:43:25   Facebook website to make one single unified Facebook experience.

00:43:29   And that's why they want to deep link from paper into the official Facebook app, from

00:43:33   the Facebook website into whatever other app they come out with, like the idea that they're

00:43:37   transitioning into, well, they already were a platform, but they want to be a different

00:43:41   kind of platform where all these different pieces on all these different platforms can

00:43:45   all talk to each other and sort of cooperate.

00:43:48   So in some ways it is kind of like inter-app communication, but all their data is on the

00:43:51   web and in the cloud, and so they have to, their version of inter-app communication is

00:43:56   a way to basically deep link from one application to another into the web out of the web.

00:44:01   So it makes sense from what they want to do.

00:44:03   Why do they think they want to do it as an open standard?

00:44:06   That just tends to be the way they do things.

00:44:08   And I think they would be happy if it became commonly supported

00:44:11   because then they would have some assurance that the OS

00:44:14   or the web browsers or whatever wouldn't change in a way that

00:44:16   prevents their nice standard from working.

00:44:19   Yeah, I guess.

00:44:20   I don't know.

00:44:21   At first, I was like, oh, this sounds-- actually, no, this

00:44:24   doesn't sound that impressive after all.

00:44:26   It sounds like a cool idea until you think about it a little bit

00:44:29   or try to implement it and start thinking

00:44:30   about the realities of it and how Apple will never support

00:44:33   Mobile Safari and everything.

00:44:35   It kind of falls apart under scrutiny, I think.

00:44:37   - Yeah, yeah, that's a very good way of phrasing it.

00:44:39   What else is cool these days?

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00:44:44   once again by Backblaze, which I still pronounce

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00:44:56   It's a Mac native app, and at five bucks a month

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00:45:03   We've talked a lot about the value

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00:45:06   and to quote one of John Gruber's sponsor reads,

00:45:10   if you don't use this, you're nuts.

00:45:12   I mean, online backup is amazing.

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00:45:32   both the main computer and the backup if all you have is the one in your house. And so

00:45:37   online backup takes care of that and a whole bunch of other problems. It's a fantastic

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00:45:56   through the web interface. You also have an iOS app that you can use to access any of

00:46:00   your backed up files and even share them if you want to. They just added email alerts

00:46:07   so that you can say, for instance, like every week or two weeks the email you is saying,

00:46:12   "Alright, this is the status of your backups. Here's what we have. We have this computer,

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00:47:14   Thank you very much to Backblaze for sponsoring the show.

00:47:18   So God help me, but I'm about to bring up comics.

00:47:20   Skip, skip, skip.

00:47:21   [laughter]

00:47:22   I actually don't really have that much to say about the ComiXology Amazon thing, but

00:47:28   I thought I should at least ask you two if you had anything to say.

00:47:32   To me, it seems like everyone is acting selfishly as expected and there's nothing here of

00:47:37   note.

00:47:38   But I don't know, what do you guys think?

00:47:39   I think Merlin covered it very well on Back to Work this week, so we'll just listen

00:47:43   to that.

00:47:44   He did a really good job of covering the nuance of this problem.

00:47:49   I mean, I had a quick blog post about it,

00:47:52   and I'm not going to rehash it here.

00:47:53   Basically, my opinion is that Amazon,

00:47:56   as the new owners of Comixology, Amazon

00:47:58   is doing what they always do, the kind of thing they always

00:48:00   do.

00:48:01   It's not really a surprise to anybody,

00:48:02   and it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody

00:48:04   that Amazon is acting the way they always do.

00:48:06   And it kind of sucks, but they have their reasons,

00:48:09   and that's it.

00:48:10   Whenever we talk about tech topics

00:48:13   where there is something that upsets, basically,

00:48:17   people who are into following the tech industry

00:48:20   and they get angry about it on Twitter

00:48:21   and they write blog posts and stuff like that.

00:48:24   There's a couple of different reactions

00:48:27   that I see that are sort of reaction types.

00:48:31   One is the easy one where people are

00:48:34   partisans for a particular company.

00:48:36   If they like one company, they don't like another company,

00:48:38   whatever happens, they're going to find out

00:48:39   why this proves that Google is evil,

00:48:41   why this proves that Apple is evil, like whatever.

00:48:42   Like they have their favorite company,

00:48:44   they have the companies they don't like.

00:48:46   whatever happens, those people will come out of the woodwork and do that.

00:48:49   So you have people who are really big Amazon fans defending Amazon,

00:48:52   and you have people who hate Apple saying it's Apple's fault, they come out, you know,

00:48:55   that is straight up.

00:48:57   The other way are as people trying to figure out what's really going on and saying, well,

00:49:01   it's really nobody's fault, and they're just kind of sort of trying to do the middle

00:49:05   of the road type thing where they don't want to assign blame, but they're sad about it,

00:49:10   and it's just like, well, it's just the way it is because everyone just has to be selfish,

00:49:12   is kind of what Casey said before.

00:49:15   And my reaction to it is always a little bit,

00:49:18   I don't know if it's less common

00:49:19   or people who have my reaction

00:49:20   just don't tweet about it as much.

00:49:22   I come in from like a parenting angle

00:49:24   where whatever company I like the best,

00:49:27   like in this case will be Apple, right?

00:49:29   Something bad will happen and I will decide

00:49:33   that I'm very disappointed in the company that I like.

00:49:35   And so-- (laughing)

00:49:37   - You give them a thumbs down?

00:49:38   - Instead of taking it out on the companies,

00:49:39   instead of taking out the companies that I don't like,

00:49:41   I'm like, oh, well, you are the company I don't like

00:49:44   and this is your fault.

00:49:45   Instead I will say, "What is it that my company did that caused this to happen?"

00:49:49   You know, it's like, I'm disappointed in my child, like that I hold my children to a higher

00:49:53   standard, right?

00:49:54   I don't care what other kids are doing.

00:49:56   Why were you involved?

00:49:57   And so, I mean, maybe that's not the real origin of this thing, but that's just, you

00:50:01   know, like, the way I was thinking was like, my first reaction is always to blame Apple.

00:50:05   Is it because I dislike Apple?

00:50:06   No, it's because I expect more of them, you know what I mean?

00:50:09   Like, I have a high standard and I'm disappointed in them.

00:50:12   Yeah, and we should point out, by the way, what we're talking about. In case anyone was living

00:50:16   under a rock this week and didn't realize what happened, Comixology, the popular comic buying

00:50:20   app for iOS, especially iPad, was bought by Amazon. And then like within a month, Amazon did

00:50:28   basically exactly what the Kindle app does, which is they removed the ability for Comixology to have

00:50:32   in-app purchase for new comic issues. And is that even the right term, comic issues? I'm sorry, I'm

00:50:38   I'm not a comics person.

00:50:39   So anyway, I'm not sorry.

00:50:41   Anyway, they removed in-app purchase.

00:50:44   And so now you have to go out to the Amazon website

00:50:47   separately, or the comiXology website owned by Amazon,

00:50:50   buy the comics there, and then go into the app

00:50:52   and download them, download things you've bought.

00:50:54   It's the exact same way the Kindle app works.

00:50:57   And that's almost entirely just to avoid paying Apple

00:51:02   their 30% on in-app purchases.

00:51:05   And Apple has a couple of rules

00:51:07   that you have to give them their 30% on an app purchases

00:51:11   and also that if you have a way on your site

00:51:16   for people to pay you without going through Apple

00:51:18   for something that is digital,

00:51:21   you can't advertise that in the app

00:51:22   and you can't link to it from the app.

00:51:24   So you can't, for instance, like,

00:51:26   you can't just have an app or like a link in the app

00:51:28   that kicks you out to Safari for a second,

00:51:30   you enter your credit card stuff on your site,

00:51:32   avoid Apple's charge, and then kicks you back into the app.

00:51:35   That's no longer-- that was only allowed for two weeks,

00:51:39   then they killed that.

00:51:42   So the issue is, obviously, Comixology under Amazon--

00:51:47   Amazon did not want to keep paying Apple 30%.

00:51:49   And many people are blaming Apple for this,

00:51:52   including John, I guess.

00:51:53   Many people are blaming Apple, saying, well, they

00:51:55   shouldn't be taking 30%, or they shouldn't have that rule

00:51:57   that you can't link to your store.

00:51:59   And that's certainly something worth discussing.

00:52:01   A lot of people are mad at Comixology,

00:52:03   because they're ruining the experience here,

00:52:04   making it much more clunky to buy things,

00:52:06   and probably eliminating a lot of impulse buys.

00:52:09   'Cause what would happen, I guess, from what I've heard,

00:52:11   is that you'd get to the end of a comic

00:52:13   and it would ask you to buy the next issue.

00:52:14   And you could buy it right there and start reading it.

00:52:16   And you can't do that as easily anymore.

00:52:18   So that's probably gonna impact sales.

00:52:20   - Let me explain why I blame Apple for this,

00:52:22   and have blamed Apple for it ever since they did

00:52:24   the same thing with the Kindle app way back when.

00:52:27   And it's not about the particulars,

00:52:29   it's about the big picture.

00:52:30   And the big picture is the technology exists

00:52:33   to provide an experience that customers like.

00:52:37   And not only just the customers like,

00:52:39   but that actually is beneficial

00:52:40   to the people selling the goods as well.

00:52:42   Like you said, the ability to just write in the app,

00:52:44   impulse purchase comics.

00:52:45   Every comic I've ever purchased in my life,

00:52:47   with the exception of I think one flimsy paperback

00:52:50   anime comic back when I was 15 years old,

00:52:52   has been through the Comixology app.

00:52:54   And why?

00:52:55   Because it is so ridiculously easy.

00:52:56   I'm not even into comics.

00:52:57   I don't even like comics,

00:52:59   but I've got the Comixology app,

00:53:00   and if you read one issue,

00:53:01   and if it puts that button and says,

00:53:02   "Do you wanna read the next one?"

00:53:03   And it puts a little price like, "Eh, whatever."

00:53:05   You tap the button.

00:53:06   Like that's the whole killer,

00:53:07   that is the killer app of the app store.

00:53:08   The fact that you could with your thumb go,

00:53:10   "Yeah, all right, I'll do that."

00:53:11   And the game goes, and you're like, "Oh, is it all right?"

00:53:13   I mean, that's why the 99 cents.

00:53:15   The barrier to entry is so low.

00:53:16   So technology exists for sure to do that.

00:53:19   And the experience is really awesome for customers.

00:53:21   They love it.

00:53:22   And it's usually pretty good

00:53:23   for the people selling the stuff too,

00:53:25   because they sell more stuff,

00:53:26   because the barrier to buying it is less.

00:53:29   Anything that prevents that from happening,

00:53:31   anything that says, yeah, we could do this,

00:53:32   and yeah, it would be good in all these sorts of ways,

00:53:34   but I don't care what the but is.

00:53:36   Is the but like, well, they have to get 30%

00:53:38   'cause it's fair and they wanna have a flat,

00:53:39   I don't even wanna hear about the reasons.

00:53:41   All I know is that this is technologically possible,

00:53:44   it is not financially infeasible, but it doesn't happen.

00:53:49   And so you say, well, Apple sets the rule,

00:53:51   Amazon is choosing not to follow them,

00:53:53   it's Amazon's fault for doing that.

00:53:55   This is not just one occurrence.

00:53:56   I mean, I guess Kindle is also Amazon as well,

00:53:58   but a lot of businesses don't have 30% to shave off

00:54:02   to give to Apple.

00:54:04   And you say, well, they used to pay way more

00:54:05   than that brick and mortar retail stores.

00:54:07   That's true as well.

00:54:08   We're supposed to be getting better over time

00:54:09   and the value you're getting out of being in the App Store,

00:54:14   is that worth 30%?

00:54:17   The relationship you had with retail establishments,

00:54:20   even though they took more off,

00:54:21   was much more complicated in terms of being able to ship,

00:54:23   for books, in the case of books,

00:54:24   being able to ship things back and dealing with inventory

00:54:27   and having a remainders market and like,

00:54:30   I would think that we would be having

00:54:31   more efficiencies in the system.

00:54:33   I'm not saying they should charge less than 30%,

00:54:35   I'm not saying they shouldn't charge 30% at all,

00:54:36   I'm saying that it is in Apple's interest

00:54:38   as the platform owner to figure out

00:54:41   what they have to do to make it so there's a good experience

00:54:43   that is definitely a win-win.

00:54:45   I don't know if it's a win-win-win

00:54:47   to use the business speak.

00:54:48   I don't know if everyone's gonna be happy,

00:54:50   but at least two of the three parties here

00:54:51   are gonna be happy with this.

00:54:53   They need to figure out a way to make it happen.

00:54:54   And the second thing that annoys me about it

00:54:56   the strategy tax thing and that, oh, by the way,

00:54:58   did you know that Apple has a bookstore?

00:54:59   And they pay themselves 30%, don't worry.

00:55:02   You know, that seems like, is that the reason

00:55:05   they're not doing it, 'cause they wanna promote iBooks?

00:55:07   Well, I don't think iBooks even sells comics,

00:55:08   so probably not in this case,

00:55:09   but in the Kindle store, it really burns me

00:55:11   that, you know, Kindle can't, you know,

00:55:13   if Kindle wants to sell their books inside the app,

00:55:16   which everyone who uses the Kindle app would love,

00:55:18   they've gotta give Apple 30%.

00:55:20   And really, there was just, I don't think there's 30%

00:55:22   hanging around to shave off of these things, right?

00:55:24   And so, yeah, they could just crank up their prices

00:55:26   by 30%, but then they have to match the store on the web store.

00:55:29   All these rules that Apple set up are made to introduce inefficiencies in the system

00:55:33   to force people to either use their system and therefore not be able to offer people

00:55:38   a discount for going to the website or whatever, or don't use it.

00:55:41   People are choosing not to use it.

00:55:42   You can say, "Well, they're playing hardball, and that's Amazon's fault."

00:55:45   At this point, I think it's clear that Apple's strategy of just holding the line on 30% and

00:55:49   saying, "Nope, it's going to be this way for everybody, and that's it," it's not working.

00:55:54   It's not making people-- it's having the opposite effect.

00:55:56   People aren't saying, well, what choice do we have?

00:55:58   I guess we just got to do it, because we

00:55:59   want to give our customers a good experience,

00:56:01   and we get more sales.

00:56:02   The opposite is happening.

00:56:03   They say, well, they're just opting out.

00:56:05   And if they think they're calling Apple's bluff

00:56:08   or whatever, I think Apple's bluff is called.

00:56:10   Apple needs to do something about it, because we

00:56:13   want to have--

00:56:14   I mean, there are so many other things that

00:56:16   aren't as good in Android.

00:56:17   But Android at least gives you the option

00:56:19   of not paying Google whatever percent if you

00:56:22   use your own payment processor.

00:56:23   - Right, yeah, so on Android you can,

00:56:25   if you use Google, they charge 30% just like the others,

00:56:29   but there's no rule against using your own,

00:56:31   so you can build on your own, and many of the big apps have.

00:56:35   And I wanna point out also,

00:56:36   Amazon, when they sell something,

00:56:40   they also tend to usually charge at least 30%,

00:56:44   especially on digital goods,

00:56:45   especially for smaller publishers, for self-published people

00:56:48   they actually often charge more than 30%.

00:56:51   And so this isn't like Amazon wants

00:56:54   to give more to the authors.

00:56:56   It's more like Amazon just wants that 30% for themselves.

00:56:59   Well, the authors will get more.

00:57:01   But we're ignoring how Amazon splits up its money.

00:57:04   Because that is a whole separate issue of yes,

00:57:06   you can definitely complain about Amazon.

00:57:08   They're not great about--

00:57:09   they want all the money for everything.

00:57:11   They want to sell your stuff below cost

00:57:13   and give you nothing for it.

00:57:14   They want to give your thing away for free.

00:57:15   Like Amazon deals with that.

00:57:16   I'm just talking about the relationship between Apple

00:57:18   and everyone else.

00:57:19   Because that's where the dysfunction is.

00:57:21   If we could address this and we could buy things

00:57:23   inside the thing, then the secondary dysfunction

00:57:25   would be like, okay, well how much of this purchase price

00:57:27   after Apple gets its cut goes to the creator or whatever.

00:57:30   So I think that's a little bit of a sideshow

00:57:32   and a lot of people are like, well this is better

00:57:33   because some of that 30% will go to the content creators

00:57:36   and that's probably true, but that's not why,

00:57:39   like don't hang your hat on that as the reason

00:57:41   we shouldn't be able to buy things inside an iOS app.

00:57:43   It is an artificial situation brought on by

00:57:46   a platform owner and someone who wants to be in the platform

00:57:49   butting heads and we are the loser.

00:57:52   The customers are the loser in this situation.

00:57:54   And in the beginning it was like,

00:57:55   well, let's just see how this shakes out.

00:57:56   But now after all these years,

00:57:58   I think Apple needs to do something different.

00:58:00   I don't know what that different thing is.

00:58:01   Is it different thing you buy Amazon?

00:58:03   No, maybe not.

00:58:04   Is it different thing you lower your percentage,

00:58:06   you come up with a different kind of deal?

00:58:08   Because consumers are suffering for it.

00:58:09   And that I think is the primary response.

00:58:13   Apple's like, oh, we just care about making great products.

00:58:15   It is not a great product when I can't buy a Kindle book

00:58:17   inside the Kindle app.

00:58:18   It's just not.

00:58:19   So yeah, I disagree on this point, on the idea that Apple has to do something, that

00:58:24   Apple is somehow losing here or they have to. I mean, there's one side of this that's

00:58:28   an entitlement argument that I don't think is entirely fair. One side of this is, well,

00:58:33   we should be able to do whatever we want on this computing platform because we're able

00:58:36   to do whatever we want on Macs and PCs. But the reality is, like, iOS is, yeah, it's

00:58:44   mostly like a computing platform, but there's no third-party software that doesn't go

00:58:49   through the App Store unless you jailbreak, but that doesn't really count.

00:58:51   But this isn't a technical issue. This isn't a safety issue. This isn't a technical issue.

00:58:55   This isn't an ease of use. It is like, it's a capability thing that we know is possible.

00:59:00   It's an artificial business constraint. Well, sure, but okay, so this is only a contentious

00:59:06   issue because iOS is the dominant tablet platform for people who buy things and read them on

00:59:12   tablets that they also use for anything else in the world. So what if the dominant portable

00:59:18   computing platform was, you know, what if it ended up differently? What if the dominant

00:59:22   tablet or the dominant portable computing platform was the Sony PSP? Or what if it was

00:59:27   the E Ink Kindle? You know, then you look at like the E Ink Kindles, no one ever had

00:59:33   apps on that. I mean, they had a quick little KDK thing that died, thank God, it was half

00:59:37   baked at best. You know, you couldn't make apps for the E Ink Kindle. Apple could not

00:59:41   make iBooks for the E Ink Kindle. Apple probably also couldn't make iBooks for the PSP. It's

00:59:47   game console. Game consoles work very differently, similar to how the App Store works, although

00:59:51   probably on worse terms, I would imagine. And so, you know, you look at other types

00:59:57   of computing devices that aren't just PCs and Macs, other types of computing devices

01:00:01   that are owned by one company, that are kind of vertically integrated, et cetera. They

01:00:08   work usually the same way that Apple does with the same kind of rules, or more restrictive,

01:00:11   where they take bigger cuts.

01:00:13   So, and including one of Amazon's own platforms

01:00:17   that is very, very popular,

01:00:18   which is the E and Kindle platform.

01:00:19   So I don't really think that it's,

01:00:23   that Apple has to do anything here,

01:00:25   or that they're necessarily unjustified,

01:00:26   or that they're being excessively greedy.

01:00:28   I really--

01:00:29   - So your argument is that because other people

01:00:31   do bad things, Apple is also entitled to do bad things?

01:00:34   - No, my argument is that you, as company X,

01:00:39   or as individual X, you are not entitled

01:00:42   to access Apple's customer base

01:00:44   on your own terms that you dictate.

01:00:47   - But it's not the Amazon that has the entitlement.

01:00:50   I'm having the entitlement as the customer.

01:00:51   I'm supposed to be the one that Apple is serving.

01:00:53   Like they're reducing the value of their products to me

01:00:56   through this fight that they're having

01:00:58   with Amazon over this.

01:00:59   Like Amazon is certainly, yes,

01:01:00   certainly not entitled to access to Apple's customers.

01:01:02   That's the hope that the whole fight is over.

01:01:03   Like those two companies are fighting,

01:01:04   but we are the losers.

01:01:05   We are caught in the middle.

01:01:07   And at a certain point, us being the losers affects Apple

01:01:11   more than it affects Amazon.

01:01:12   Because Amazon can go anywhere, can sell--

01:01:14   whoever-- Amazon cares much less about who the winner is

01:01:17   in the whatever space than Apple does.

01:01:19   Because Amazon is promiscuous.

01:01:22   Will try to get you to buy-- yes,

01:01:23   they have their own platform too,

01:01:25   but it's not like they're shunning iOS and Android.

01:01:28   They will still sell what they want to sell.

01:01:30   It's us that's losing.

01:01:31   And I was willing to give it a couple of years

01:01:34   to see how it would shake out.

01:01:36   But if, for example, Apple had become ridiculously dominant,

01:01:39   like they had 90% market share and everything,

01:01:41   maybe Amazon would have lost this one.

01:01:43   Maybe they would have gone back to selling in the app,

01:01:44   but it didn't work out that way.

01:01:46   And so now I think it's time to readjust.

01:01:49   - I see, I just don't see the pressure

01:01:53   being that strong on Apple here.

01:01:55   - I think Apple is not fulfilling its responsibility

01:01:58   as a platform owner to make its products

01:02:00   the best they can be for its customers in the long term.

01:02:02   Not just the short term.

01:02:03   Like I said, I was willing to give them

01:02:05   a year or two to play hardball and see how it went, but it is going badly for them.

01:02:10   And I blame Apple because they're my child.

01:02:15   I will disagree that it's going badly. But also, one more thing.

01:02:18   I think Apple could probably look at this from another angle and say,

01:02:21   "If you're proposing a change to App Store policy, you can't just look at it as what would good implementations do with that.

01:02:25   What would good people do with that? How would that be used well?"

01:02:33   You have to also look at it as,

01:02:34   how would that be used terribly?

01:02:36   How would that be used by scammy people,

01:02:37   by crappy companies like King?

01:02:39   Like how would that be used by terrible people

01:02:42   and terrible companies?

01:02:44   And if, and allowing other in-app purchase systems

01:02:48   that Apple does not run would also introduce a huge risk

01:02:53   of an erosion of trust in the payment system

01:02:56   by bad actors, like big game companies

01:03:00   with in-app purchase schemes, stuff like that.

01:03:02   Like bad actors having their own credit card input things

01:03:06   in their apps that then behave badly.

01:03:09   - But who's suggesting that though?

01:03:10   No one is suggesting that.

01:03:12   - Well, so that's one of the options.

01:03:14   There's a couple options to solve this.

01:03:16   One of the options is to reduce Apple's cut.

01:03:19   Let's say they cut it in half to 15%.

01:03:21   Do you think that would change Amazon's mind?

01:03:22   I'm guessing not.

01:03:24   Let's say all the rules stay the same,

01:03:25   but the cut goes down.

01:03:26   - The most feasible option for them,

01:03:28   if you're looking like what's the practical solution,

01:03:29   what do you actually want them to do?

01:03:32   Two things, one on the technical side,

01:03:33   they should make it possible for someone with a catalog

01:03:36   volume the size of Comixology, let alone Amazon itself.

01:03:39   If there's any limit, Amazon is going to hit it

01:03:41   with like an Amazon.com app, for example.

01:03:44   Like it sells everything that Amazon sells

01:03:46   'cause their catalog is massive.

01:03:47   But anyway, make sure that's all set,

01:03:50   make sure you have a system in place.

01:03:52   And then what I would change about it is it's ridiculous

01:03:55   that they have this hardline thing

01:03:56   where it's gotta be 70/30 with everyone.

01:03:58   Cut a deal with Amazon.

01:04:00   I think it's not insane, like, oh, it's unfair.

01:04:03   Why does Amazon get it?

01:04:04   They get a special deal because they're Amazon.com.

01:04:06   You are not Amazon.com, you get a different deal.

01:04:08   I don't think that's unreasonable.

01:04:10   And Apple seems so tied to like, it's 70/30,

01:04:12   it never changes, everyone is treated equally,

01:04:14   isn't that nice and fair for everybody?

01:04:17   It stops being a tenable strategy

01:04:20   when your consumers are made to have worse experiences

01:04:23   because of, I don't know, what crazy principle

01:04:25   that you want, like, you know,

01:04:26   in each individual Apple developer to feel fair.

01:04:29   I don't think it's unreasonable to cut a deal with Amazon.

01:04:31   Figure out what you have to do.

01:04:33   The terms of that deal don't even need to be public.

01:04:35   I don't care what Amazon and Apple have to do

01:04:37   to or with each other behind closed doors

01:04:40   to get this deal to happen.

01:04:41   Just do what you have to do.

01:04:43   If someone complains, hey, Amazon's getting a special deal.

01:04:46   When you get to be the size of Amazon,

01:04:48   then you'll get a special deal too.

01:04:49   Like, is that crazy?

01:04:50   Am I breaking secret rules of the App Store

01:04:53   by suggesting this insane idea?

01:04:55   - Well, it would be breaking with a lot of precedent.

01:04:58   Historically, Apple has generally very consistently

01:05:03   enforced the same rules for everybody, big and small.

01:05:06   And much of the big companies should grin in a lot of cases.

01:05:09   But they generally do not negotiate major exceptions

01:05:14   to rules like that, even with companies

01:05:16   as big as Amazon or Facebook or The New York Times

01:05:18   or anything like that.

01:05:19   They really have not done that.

01:05:20   I agree they haven't.

01:05:21   I think it's silly that they haven't.

01:05:23   See, I don't know.

01:05:24   I mean, there is-- a lot of the App Store,

01:05:27   and a lot of its problems, honestly,

01:05:30   are because of this almost mostly democratic system

01:05:35   that it has often been or it is in a lot of respects.

01:05:40   The top list is famously minimally filtered.

01:05:44   And so you see crappy scam apps up there all the time

01:05:47   because they're not really monitoring it that closely.

01:05:50   And it's worth arguing whether that's

01:05:52   a good thing or a bad thing.

01:05:55   But for the most part, the App Store is run

01:05:58   on a pretty level playing field,

01:06:00   where big companies are not allowed to break rules

01:06:04   that small companies can't also break.

01:06:06   - Well, it's not breaking a rule if you have a deal.

01:06:08   Like I said, there's anger in the chat room about this.

01:06:10   Here's, let me address a couple of the things.

01:06:11   Dented Meat says, "Do you really think

01:06:13   "that if Amazon is given a better deal,

01:06:14   "they will automatically pass the money

01:06:16   "to the content creators?"

01:06:16   No, of course not, I didn't say that.

01:06:18   I don't think anyone said that.

01:06:19   Again, we're not talking about

01:06:20   Amazon divides up the money.

01:06:21   That's a whole separate issue.

01:06:22   That's totally not what I'm talking about.

01:06:24   I don't know what Amazon would do with it, probably not,

01:06:26   because that's not how they work.

01:06:28   And then people say, comparing it to bribes and corruption.

01:06:32   It's a business relationship.

01:06:35   When Apple is buying parts from someone who makes

01:06:38   screens or widgets or whatever,

01:06:40   they negotiate a deal to buy those screens.

01:06:42   They get a better price than you do

01:06:43   if you wanna buy 10 of them.

01:06:44   That's business, that's not bribes and corruption.

01:06:46   That's just how business works.

01:06:47   You get volume discounts.

01:06:48   If you're going to drive a certain amount of business,

01:06:50   you get a better deal.

01:06:51   I don't think that's corruption or bribes.

01:06:53   That's just how business works.

01:06:56   It's a contract and no one else is entitled to see,

01:06:58   hey, how much is Samsung paying you for screens?

01:07:00   Apple's not entitled to see that.

01:07:02   That's individual contracts with businesses.

01:07:05   If someone's bringing up antitrust,

01:07:06   Apple doesn't have the market share in any market

01:07:09   to be even remotely considered for antitrust,

01:07:13   except for the crazy people who are gonna say

01:07:14   that Apple has a monopoly on Apple computers,

01:07:16   and I love that one, that everyone gets old.

01:07:18   (laughing)

01:07:20   You know, I understand why you'd want to have uniform rules.

01:07:24   And that's a good idea right up to the point

01:07:26   where it seems like there's some sort of problem.

01:07:28   Here, there is definitely a problem.

01:07:30   And maybe they can never come to a deal.

01:07:32   Like, if they can't come to a deal, they can't come to a deal.

01:07:34   But as far as any of us are aware,

01:07:36   they've never even considered this as an option.

01:07:38   I mean, another example is they held the line on--

01:07:42   I imagine a lot of the rumors are about Microsoft and Office

01:07:45   and why isn't Office available.

01:07:47   - Microsoft doesn't wanna give Apple 30%

01:07:49   of its software sales, right?

01:07:50   And so that went on for a really long time

01:07:52   until eventually Microsoft blinked and produced Office,

01:07:55   but they found a way to do it without giving Apple a cut

01:07:57   because you have to sign up for Office 365

01:07:59   and all this other--

01:08:00   - Wait, is that true?

01:08:01   I thought they were giving Apple the cut

01:08:03   if you bought it in the app.

01:08:04   - For the subscription, you mean?

01:08:06   - I thought it was a little of both.

01:08:07   I thought that the way that Microsoft hopes you go

01:08:11   is you already have an Office 365 subscription

01:08:13   you got on your own accord, but I believe, Marco,

01:08:16   you're also right that there is an in-app purchase of some capacity that Apple does get a cut of.

01:08:23   But like the thing everyone was talking about early on was Microsoft Office will be available

01:08:26   for the iPad, it'll be $99 and Apple will get 30% of that and that's not what Microsoft did,

01:08:30   that's not what happened. You know, like they have the subscription model and the apps are free,

01:08:36   right? It's a free download? Yep. Yeah, I mean, so that is, you know, it's a different monetization

01:08:41   strategy as opposed to simply selling Office at a premium price and giving Apple 30% right

01:08:47   off there. And in that case, there would be no way to get Office without paying Apple

01:08:51   30%. And now there is a way. You download a free app, go to Microsoft's website where

01:08:54   they offer you the same prices, you know, in-app purchase. And even that took a long

01:08:57   time to figure out. And I think customers didn't really lose out in that one. And I

01:09:01   think Apple kind of won that battle. But the battle over an application through which you

01:09:06   naturally want to buy things and consume them right in them, Apple is not winning that battle

01:09:10   for whatever reasons, and I think something should be done about it.

01:09:13   And I mean, thus far, because Google is so incompetent in this area

01:09:17   and has not been able to penetrate the market, people aren't like, well,

01:09:20   screw Apple, I'm just going to get an Android dress because you're not like,

01:09:22   I think the iPad is still better.

01:09:24   You know, I think it's Apple still.

01:09:28   Maybe that's what they think, too.

01:09:29   Like we're still in the driver's seat.

01:09:30   Eventually we'll win this.

01:09:31   But there's a lot of years of suffering that's gone on already with the Kindle app.

01:09:34   And just the comiXology is a drop in the bucket.

01:09:37   And we just see a lot of it because, you know, we know people who

01:09:40   read comics and are angry about it, but I think it is a of a type that will continue coming up until

01:09:46   someone figures something out. So what about this as a proposed alternative? So the times in which

01:09:54   we all get bitter about the 30% seem to be, as far as I can tell, reselling. So Amazon or Comixology

01:10:03   is reselling the comics in their app.

01:10:07   What if Apple announced that, "Hey, if you come to us and can prove to us that you're

01:10:12   a reseller, then we'll drop the fee to 15%," or something like that.

01:10:17   And so for things like games where you're not really reselling anything, then you still

01:10:22   have to pay the 30%.

01:10:24   And you can't just make a shell company and say, "Yes, I promise that this shell company

01:10:28   isn't me."

01:10:29   You have to actually go to someone in Apple and prove to them by whatever means they want

01:10:35   that you are simply reselling and you are not providing your own original content, and

01:10:40   thus it's not reasonable to give Apple 30%, you will give them the lower tier cost.

01:10:46   Well, you don't need to think that hard about this.

01:10:48   You can do things, if you're so stuck on doing uniform rules for everybody, you just give

01:10:51   like volume discounts.

01:10:52   If you sell X amount of dollars, we get X percent, and if you sell 10 billion dollars,

01:10:56   I mean like there are plenty...

01:10:57   Right, which Microsoft does that.

01:10:58   These are not like new technologies in the world of business.

01:11:01   Like this is how business has worked forever.

01:11:03   It's just that the app store is the aberration.

01:11:05   Can we apply this uniformly to everybody and not have any variability for volume

01:11:09   so that if you sell three in-app purchases for virtual coins versus 30

01:11:13   billion in-app purchases, when you get exactly the same percentage,

01:11:16   it's nice and convenient to everyone, you know, but like, again,

01:11:18   it's only a problem until like it's making your platform worse to deploy

01:11:22   applications on it.

01:11:23   The Kindle app is worse on iOS in this respect than it is on other platforms

01:11:27   that allow purchase. And Comixology just got worse because the previous company that owned

01:11:31   it was willing to bite the bullet and give the 30% surely shaving its margins and potentially

01:11:37   also shaving how much money go to content creators, but who cares? They were willing

01:11:40   to do this because that was how they got traction. They got enough traction, they got bought

01:11:43   out by Amazon. Amazon doesn't need traction. Amazon is Amazon.com. So yeah, they take away

01:11:47   the 30% because that's what Amazon does. It's not like I'm saying Amazon is the scorpion

01:11:53   here. It's like, well, it's in its nature. It's going to do that. Like I think Amazon

01:11:55   and does plenty of evil things too.

01:11:57   All I'm thinking about is why is the platform

01:11:59   that I use on my tablet getting worse

01:12:00   for me to do things I like to do on it?

01:12:02   And I just want it to be worked out.

01:12:05   - Marco, before you jump in, I'd just like to point out

01:12:07   I understand the Scorpion reference.

01:12:08   - That's what you talked about on Hypercritical

01:12:10   and you listened.

01:12:12   - You know, Jon, you're assuming

01:12:14   that Apple needs to address this.

01:12:16   And in your position, you're arguing that,

01:12:19   it is an assumption, you're arguing

01:12:21   that Apple needs to fix this.

01:12:22   And I just don't see the urgent need.

01:12:24   And I think the Kindle app being this way for so long,

01:12:28   I mean it's been what, four or five years,

01:12:30   probably three or four years that the Kindle app

01:12:32   has been this way?

01:12:34   That's been there long enough and it doesn't seem

01:12:38   to really be affecting Apple sales or customer satisfaction.

01:12:41   You know, overall it doesn't seem to be that

01:12:45   you know, Apple's really like being held with a fire here,

01:12:47   that they really have to change this.

01:12:49   I don't see the big push, I don't see why they would

01:12:52   have to do any of these things,

01:12:54   And by the way, I think lowering their cut to anything

01:12:58   would not please Amazon.

01:12:59   I think Amazon wants to own that whole experience

01:13:00   and the whole processing of anything.

01:13:01   - That is potentially right, but at that point,

01:13:04   I could stop blaming Apple and say,

01:13:05   "Well, Apple offered them like 0.001%

01:13:08   and they just still rejected it."

01:13:09   It's like, "Well, then it's not Apple's fault anymore."

01:13:10   - Yeah, I mean, and honestly, I really do think

01:13:13   Amazon wants to own the entire customer process,

01:13:16   not just that commission.

01:13:17   They want everything to be going through them only.

01:13:20   And so they have full control and full access.

01:13:23   I really don't think that a rate cut would do it for them.

01:13:26   - Well, the idea that they don't need to do it

01:13:27   'cause it's like, well, they've been doing it

01:13:29   for years with Kindle and it hasn't hurt them, right?

01:13:30   It's difficult to sell what hasn't hurt them,

01:13:32   but the one thing I would point to, like a metric,

01:13:35   you're just like, well, maybe they would have sold more iPads

01:13:38   if you could have bought things.

01:13:38   Like, that's hard to prove, like, whatever.

01:13:40   But the one thing you could point to

01:13:42   is good old Tim Cook's favorite, customer sat.

01:13:44   Customer sat among people who read comics.

01:13:46   Has suddenly gone down, I can tell you that.

01:13:48   And I think customer, I mean, Kindle app didn't have it,

01:13:51   So like, customer sat among people who use the Kindle app would go, you know, way higher

01:13:56   for their iPads if they could buy things through it.

01:13:57   Because think about that.

01:13:58   Like, some people, they consider their iPad like, it's my comic reading device.

01:14:03   And like, that's what they use it for.

01:14:04   And I bet there are people out there who consider it their Kindle reader.

01:14:07   And if suddenly those people could buy the things, like they got to the end of series

01:14:10   one, of a book series, and there was a little page at the end of the Kindle thing that said,

01:14:13   "Do you want to start reading the next one?

01:14:14   Tap this button."

01:14:15   You tap the button, a little spinner appeared for two seconds, and you're reading the next

01:14:18   book.

01:14:19   sat with their iPad would go up.

01:14:21   Like, that is a metric that you can track,

01:14:23   that they talk about a lot, that they should be watching.

01:14:26   Is it causing people to not buy iPads?

01:14:28   I don't know.

01:14:29   Like, maybe customer satisfaction is disconnected

01:14:32   from their bottom line in vague ways,

01:14:34   but they do care about it, because that's their whole thing.

01:14:35   It's like, we're trying to make great products

01:14:37   that make people happy.

01:14:38   And here's a case where they're intentionally choosing

01:14:40   not to do something that they know will make people happy

01:14:42   because of a fight they're having

01:14:43   with a competitor about pricing.

01:14:45   And like I said, it's okay to do that for a while,

01:14:48   but the way it's shaking out doesn't seem like Amazon's

01:14:50   gonna budge and customer satisfaction with these experiences

01:14:54   is either still not going up to the level they know

01:14:57   it could be or going down in the cases where applications

01:14:59   have to backslide.

01:15:00   So assuming that there's no rate change that could get

01:15:04   Amazon to actually accept that and do everything directly

01:15:07   through Apple, assuming that the only thing that would allow

01:15:09   them to offer in-app purchases on Apple's platforms

01:15:12   in a way that Amazon would approve would be to do what

01:15:16   Google allows, which is to just have their own payment

01:15:18   processing in the app, and Apple would just remove the rule that you can't do that. Do

01:15:23   you think the net gain from that in overall Apple ecosystem customer satisfaction, assuming

01:15:30   that anybody else could do that same thing, assuming that anyone, as I said earlier, assuming

01:15:33   that King could put their own payment system in Candy Crush to make 30% more, and that

01:15:38   any random app could put their own credit card system in.

01:15:40   But you keep going back to your own payment system. No one is suggesting that. I would

01:15:44   never suggest that people be able to do their own payment systems.

01:15:47   So you're basically putting forth the idea that Apple should negotiate a lower rate with

01:15:51   Amazon and that Amazon would probably accept a lower rate.

01:15:55   It's not just Amazon.

01:15:56   Say Amazon plays hardball and we will not give you a red cent.

01:15:58   You'll never get anything if you don't.

01:16:01   For example, Amazon's policy was, "If you don't let us implement our own payment, then

01:16:05   screw you."

01:16:06   And then I would say it's in Apple's interest not to ever do that because we'd say, "Well,

01:16:09   you implementing your own payment system would make it worse for our customers."

01:16:12   So it's not actually, "We're not better than our customers, so I'll use this and forget

01:16:15   it."

01:16:16   mean like Marvel Unlimited and all these other like comicsology had white label

01:16:19   versions of their apps to other people so I don't know how it's gonna work out

01:16:21   now that Amazon owns them but there's a potential for other people in the market

01:16:25   to say well we'll do a deal for the people who own these comics and we will

01:16:28   sell comics electronically and we will let them but you buy them from within

01:16:31   our app and you would see the people who enter comics say well screw

01:16:33   comicsology I'm not using them anymore you can't even buy inside the app I'm

01:16:36   going to this other thing or I'm going to this description plan like those ones

01:16:38   where you pay a monthly fee and you can read X number of comics like the

01:16:42   competition hopefully at least in the realm of comics maybe not in the realm

01:16:45   with books or anything else, would make it so that other people would spring up and say,

01:16:49   "Well, you're not willing to pay Apple 2%, but I think 2% is a reasonable transaction

01:16:52   fee and we're going to pay it and now everyone's going to come to our app and no one's going

01:16:55   to buy through your thing because they don't want to go to your website to buy stuff."

01:16:58   I'm looking at just what effect these kind of decisions would have on the entire iOS

01:17:03   ecosystem and on all developers and all users of it. I don't see a scenario here where Apple

01:17:10   could make a change that would dramatically improve

01:17:14   the situation with Amazon stuff and would be a net benefit

01:17:18   and wouldn't have too high a cost in user satisfaction,

01:17:23   even ignoring the money Apple would lose on that reduced

01:17:26   or lost commission.

01:17:28   I don't see this as being a net win.

01:17:30   I see bad people taking advantage of it

01:17:34   and an erosion of trust in buying iOS apps

01:17:36   and paying for things on iOS,

01:17:37   which should reduce customer satisfaction.

01:17:40   What would the bad people do with a reduced rate based on volume or otherwise?

01:17:44   Yeah, the reduced rate, that's something that I think would probably only negatively

01:17:49   affect Apple, but I also don't—again, I don't see Amazon taking that deal.

01:17:53   And you're right, maybe someone else will, and maybe that'll be the situation.

01:17:56   But see, I just—again, I don't see the big need for this.

01:18:00   I mean, people are mad this week.

01:18:03   They'll be over it next week.

01:18:05   And even now, most of the anger is going to Comixology and Amazon.

01:18:08   Apple's not even getting hit by most of it.

01:18:10   Yeah, but the customer satisfaction with their iPads goes down.

01:18:12   They're less satisfied with their product.

01:18:15   Maybe it's like it doesn't reflect on Apple, maybe they blame Comixology, but what if the

01:18:18   next time they need to buy a tablet, by then they've long since heard that this isn't a

01:18:23   problem on Android and they read comics there and can buy them right in the app.

01:18:27   Maybe that will change their decision.

01:18:29   It's small, but these little things add up.

01:18:32   Books I think is bigger.

01:18:33   The Kindle app is bigger and the Kindle app has the advantage that I'm pretty sure you

01:18:35   you could never buy them inside the Kindle app,

01:18:37   so it's not like anything was ever taken away.

01:18:39   But if people find out that, oh, if you get a Kindle Fire,

01:18:41   you can buy within the app,

01:18:43   that may attract them more to a Kindle Fire,

01:18:44   especially if they start using their tablet mainly

01:18:46   as a Kindle device.

01:18:48   - I feel like, and you might have even said this earlier,

01:18:50   because the iPad, or maybe it was Marco,

01:18:51   because the iPad is so much better

01:18:54   than everything else on the market,

01:18:56   I don't think that customer sat,

01:18:58   will be influenced negatively enough

01:19:01   to level the playing field.

01:19:03   - Yeah, you're probably right,

01:19:05   And that's what Apple is counting on too, but these little things add up.

01:19:08   And I was going to say that Sam the Geek in the chat room says that the white label versions

01:19:11   of Comixology are keeping their in-app purchase.

01:19:13   But like I said, now that Amazon owns them, I wonder how long those white label versions

01:19:17   of Comixology app are going to be in the world at all.

01:19:21   But clearly the people who are currently using them, I think the companies that put out the

01:19:24   comics themselves actually white label them.

01:19:27   Those people are highly motivated to get away for people with iOS devices to be able to

01:19:31   easily buy their comics and apparently they have been willing to pay the 30%.

01:19:35   I assume they will continue to be willing to buy the 30% and that could be a way that

01:19:39   Apple quote unquote wins this one by basically saying, well, no one will use comicality anymore.

01:19:44   We'll still get 30% and we'll get 30% from these other people instead.

01:19:49   That's potentially true as well.

01:19:51   Like I'm just tired of the game of chicken.

01:19:53   I feel like it's gone on for too many years and I don't want to see apps coming onto the

01:19:59   platform and we'll all just assume, well, of course you can't buy within the application.

01:20:02   Of course you have to do this dance to go through a website and then like, some kid's

01:20:06   gonna ask me, "Grandpa, why can't I buy things inside applications?"

01:20:10   And I say, "Well, ten decades ago, three decades ago, wherever I went, I can't do math anymore

01:20:15   because I'm old, Apple decided that they wanted to charge everybody 30% and everyone else

01:20:20   decided they weren't gonna pay it.

01:20:21   And Apple still makes the best tablets, but we have to do this because of the fight between

01:20:24   these giant corporations."

01:20:25   Wow.

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01:21:19   But I've heard that in other businesses.

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01:21:21   like two companies and the customer kind of thing?

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01:22:14   - So are we done in the comics thing

01:22:15   that we don't have anything to say about?

01:22:17   - I didn't listen to the Back to Work episode yet.

01:22:19   I'm still behind, so I don't know what Merlin had to say

01:22:21   about it, but sorry if I repeated any of the stuff that he said.

01:22:25   He mostly took the middle, moderate round of this is all more complicated than we understand,

01:22:30   and we shouldn't be making assumptions like we understand everything going on with these

01:22:34   big companies.

01:22:35   Okay, well, I guess we didn't overlap. Although, I did talk about, I tried to add disclaimers

01:22:39   as far as we know. Because who knows what overtures any one company's making to Apple,

01:22:43   who knows what response Apple's making to them. We just know what these people announce

01:22:47   publicly and what they end up doing.

01:22:49   I don't think this issue's gonna be resolved anytime soon

01:22:51   between Apple with their 30% rules

01:22:54   and their no external payment processing rules

01:22:57   versus Amazon and their desires

01:22:59   versus customers and their experience.

01:23:00   I just, you know, the Kindle app has been this way for years

01:23:03   and it has not budged.

01:23:05   Neither side has budged at all,

01:23:08   so I don't see that changing for a very similar app

01:23:12   with the same parties involved

01:23:14   that has a much smaller audience.

01:23:15   I just don't see it changing.

01:23:16   The volume discount thing has the advantage that it lets everybody pretend that they didn't budge.

01:23:21   Because Apple can say, "Well, we still apply the same rules to everybody." And other people say,

01:23:25   "Well, we weren't going to do it, but we got Apple to change the rules." Because what that encourages

01:23:30   is you are encouraged to drive more business through iOS. Sell tons of crap, because the more

01:23:36   stuff you sell, the lower our percentage goes. And so that would let everybody save face. And

01:23:41   like you said, maybe it wouldn't bring Amazon back to the table. But even if it'd ignore Amazon,

01:23:45   If they're going to be butts about it, then fine. Tons of other people would be like, "Oh,

01:23:49   now I am much more highly motivated to figure out a way to sell goods through

01:23:52   the App Store," because if I just sell a little bit of them, fine, but if I sell tons of them,

01:23:57   the percentage that gets taken goes down. Unfortunately, the people selling the most

01:24:01   stuff for the App Store are the companies you mentioned who are using the existing in-app

01:24:05   purchase system to sell digital coins to people for bazillions of dollars.

01:24:11   - Right, well and there too, there is pretty much,

01:24:14   besides Amazon, what other major examples are there

01:24:19   that would have enough of an impact,

01:24:23   that are inconveniencing customers enough,

01:24:27   and are bad enough and inconvenient enough for customers

01:24:29   that Apple would be more pressured to act

01:24:32   beyond just, let's just keep our 30%

01:24:34   'cause it's working great for us.

01:24:36   - Yeah, I mean you're looking for potential things.

01:24:39   Like if Apple wants some people to buy things through iPads,

01:24:44   and I think they should, because I think that's

01:24:46   a great way to buy a lot of content that can be digital.

01:24:49   And I think it should use a single unified system

01:24:51   that Apple controls for in-app purchases,

01:24:53   so everyone is like, all the things about it that we like,

01:24:56   if there was more of that, it would be better.

01:24:58   So anybody who's gotten anything to sell that could potentially

01:25:00   find its way through the invisible airwaves

01:25:02   to your iPad should be encouraged to do so.

01:25:05   Someone in the chat room brought up,

01:25:07   look where the revenue is coming from.

01:25:09   If it's all coming from the big guys,

01:25:10   then they wouldn't want to change the rate

01:25:12   because then every,

01:25:13   they basically, Apple would be losing money.

01:25:15   Like why would Apple ever do a volume discount

01:25:16   if all their income or a huge amount of their income

01:25:19   is coming from the big guys?

01:25:20   Yeah, Apple would make less money.

01:25:22   Like this is the problem with this whole thing

01:25:23   is that people used to be like,

01:25:25   oh, Apple runs the iTunes store at break even

01:25:27   and it's not really a profit center.

01:25:28   And oh no, the app store is like, yeah, they take a cup.

01:25:30   It's really just enough to keep the lights on.

01:25:32   But it has always been like Apple's,

01:25:34   I don't know if it's their secret strategy or whatever,

01:25:36   but it's been pretty clear.

01:25:37   Like, you could see Apple five years ago

01:25:40   rubbing their hands together saying,

01:25:41   "Yes, ignore our breakeven businesses.

01:25:43   "They're totally not there to make money.

01:25:44   "It's just to make our devices more valuable."

01:25:47   They know that it is, you know, this is what you want.

01:25:50   The type of system where we don't have to do anything more

01:25:53   and we magically get money.

01:25:54   Like, people can drive more and more money

01:25:56   through our systems.

01:25:57   Like, we like that.

01:25:57   The margin is better than having to make

01:25:59   another metallic widget to sell to somebody.

01:26:02   It's much easier to just simply let someone

01:26:04   tap another button and send, get another 30% cut

01:26:07   of a transaction is going through our system.

01:26:08   And lo and behold, years down the line,

01:26:10   suddenly Apple's businesses like iTunes and stuff

01:26:12   that were, oh, just run at break even,

01:26:14   are starting to make some significant money.

01:26:15   And the app store, same thing, like, oh, it starts out

01:26:17   as just enough for us to cover our costs or whatever.

01:26:19   But I have a feeling that Apple would like it

01:26:22   if these businesses stopped being break even

01:26:24   and started making some serious money.

01:26:25   And while people aren't paying attention,

01:26:26   that's where they're going.

01:26:27   So any potential plan that says, oh, we're gonna give you

01:26:30   less revenue because of your volume discount,

01:26:32   it's like Apple might be thinking,

01:26:35   I know we've always kind of pretended this is like a break-even business, but if we're gonna do this

01:26:38   It might actually be a break-even business and we're not Amazon. We don't we actually want profits. So

01:26:43   there are forces against any

01:26:45   idea like this but

01:26:48   It's almost like I wish it would hurt them more because you're right that it's not hurting them enough

01:26:52   That it's clear that they have to do this. They're gonna be out of business or they're doing that's totally not the case

01:26:56   It's just like it's it's just like a little thorn in your side where you know, it could be better and someday

01:27:02   You are going to have to explain to your mom who got a Kindle fire when she gets her iPad. I'll get the iPad

01:27:07   It's better but on my Kindle fire

01:27:08   I could buy the books and the thing you will have to explain that to her and good luck making it sound

01:27:12   Reasonable. This is impossible. It's not reasonable. Apple's product is worse than this one small way and it it galls me

01:27:18   Or she'll just get an iPad and just buy things and iBooks

01:27:21   That's a fate worse than death

01:27:24   Alright thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week fracture back blaze and new relic and we will see you next week

01:27:32   [music]

01:27:34   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:27:39   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:27:44   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:27:50   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:27:55   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:28:00   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:28:10   So that's K-C-L-I-S-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:28:22   ♪ It's accidental, accidental ♪

01:28:25   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:28:28   ♪ Accidental, accidental ♪

01:28:30   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:28:33   - You wanna talk about this weird test flight thing

01:28:38   that we've been putting off forever?

01:28:39   It's really old news now.

01:28:40   - I've forgotten what it is by now.

01:28:42   - So Bursley was acquired.

01:28:44   Do we even know, like is there any actual confirmation

01:28:47   that Apple was the acquirer?

01:28:48   - The internet said so?

01:28:50   - Right, like I think even that is not definite,

01:28:54   like not confirmed, but TestFlight basically

01:28:57   just like very quietly shut down.

01:29:00   Like it stopped accepting new applicants or new customers

01:29:04   to beta test the apps with it.

01:29:06   And it's just like quietly shutting down.

01:29:09   And they never made an announcement about this,

01:29:11   they never explained it,

01:29:13   it's just like a very, very quiet shutdown.

01:29:15   And so the theory is that Apple bought them

01:29:19   and they're probably going to integrate maybe first party,

01:29:24   maybe Apple might actually integrate TestFlight-like

01:29:26   functionality into the provisioning portal for iOS apps

01:29:29   so that we could stop doing the stupid UDID dance

01:29:31   with things like Hockey and TestFlight

01:29:33   and other beta testing type things.

01:29:36   But I don't know.

01:29:38   I would love that to be the case.

01:29:41   I would love for the story with TestFlight

01:29:43   to be that Apple's building something like this in,

01:29:46   and that's why it's shutting down.

01:29:48   but first it was also a big mobile ad company, right?

01:29:51   Wasn't that, or analytics, one of those things?

01:29:53   So Apple might've wanted it for that,

01:29:55   and TestFlight was this little side project they had

01:29:57   that wasn't making any money,

01:29:58   so Apple just made them quietly shut it down.

01:30:00   Like it could be any of these things.

01:30:01   - I would put money that they're going to do the thing

01:30:03   that TestFlight did inside Apple,

01:30:05   just because it makes so much sense.

01:30:07   I mean, anytime you see a bunch of third-party sites

01:30:10   popping up that developers are using,

01:30:12   like lots of developers using HockeyApp,

01:30:14   lots of developers are using TestFlight,

01:30:16   Apple hates that.

01:30:19   If there's something that third-party developers need

01:30:22   to be done, there should not be a thriving ecosystem

01:30:25   of companies that serve these developers' needs to do

01:30:28   these things if the thing they're doing

01:30:31   is something like-- it's common.

01:30:34   So Apple wants to eventually have a solution to do that.

01:30:36   If they bought this company and this company did that,

01:30:39   I would say it's almost guaranteed

01:30:40   that what they're trying to do is

01:30:41   get something in-house that does similar to the thing

01:30:43   that they did.

01:30:45   See, I don't know.

01:30:46   this is probably just like--

01:30:47   - You're saying nothing can ever get better

01:30:48   in the App Store, but it can sometimes.

01:30:50   - Yeah, it's some kind of psychological barrier

01:30:53   that I have where, especially in areas like this,

01:30:55   like the provisioning of devices, the UDID limits,

01:30:59   the beta testing being such a pain,

01:31:01   I can't fathom Apple actually making

01:31:05   a major improvement to this.

01:31:06   And again, I would love to be proven wrong.

01:31:08   - They'll probably still give you a fixed list of IDs

01:31:11   that only rotates at a certain,

01:31:13   there will still be plenty of things to annoy you, I'm sure,

01:31:15   Like just the general experience of provisioning

01:31:18   and the ability for people to easily download betas

01:31:21   and distribute them.

01:31:22   Like I'm assuming they will fix some of the annoyances

01:31:25   but I guarantee there'll be more of the remainder.

01:31:26   Just don't worry, code signing will still be terrible.

01:31:28   So you'll have that.

01:31:29   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:31:31   I mean like I've heard rumblings here and there

01:31:34   from the rumor sites and everybody that like,

01:31:36   you know, this might finally be the year

01:31:37   where Apple like really makes things better

01:31:40   for developers in the App Store.

01:31:42   So like, you know, the tools side,

01:31:43   like the Xcode is fantastic.

01:31:45   It's been improved a lot.

01:31:46   You have to see the language has been improved a lot,

01:31:48   and all the tools are really great.

01:31:50   But then you cross over into the provisioning

01:31:53   and the iTunes Connect and the App Store rules

01:31:56   and the pricing mechanism and upgrades and trials

01:32:00   and all that stuff that developers have been wanting forever.

01:32:03   I have no faith that Apple will ever improve that stuff

01:32:08   because they just haven't.

01:32:10   The App Store has been running now for, what,

01:32:13   six years, five years, and this stuff has almost not changed

01:32:17   at all, there have been very minor changes.

01:32:20   - But don't you think they've been kind of in the middle

01:32:22   of a multi-year arc where they've been adding lots of stuff

01:32:25   so fast that they haven't had enough time

01:32:27   to essentially make it work?

01:32:28   - Yeah. - You know what I mean?

01:32:29   Like the whole, I mean there's the iOS thing,

01:32:32   and there's like, they've been doing a lot of stuff

01:32:34   to code signing provisioning profiles and betas,

01:32:37   and like, and sandboxing, and the sandbox bookmarks

01:32:40   on the Mac for opening up, like, they're adding all sorts

01:32:42   things you can do and revving their compiler toolchain like they've kind of

01:32:46   been outrunning themselves leaving a trail of crappy half implemented things

01:32:49   behind them hopefully at some point they will get to a point where they can

01:32:53   circle back and say that's what I hope they're doing by buying test fly it's

01:32:55   like okay we had a way to do this before the way sucked for years now we finally

01:33:00   have a chance to take a breath and say let's go back and instead of adding a

01:33:03   new capability let's merely make it less incredibly unpleasant to do with

01:33:07   something that you could previously do you know I mean I'm hoping that they're

01:33:11   at that point. I mean iOS 8 maybe I'm moving that direction as well now that we're over the 7 hump.

01:33:15   You know, so we'll see. Yeah, maybe. I hope you're right. I don't have high hopes or I don't have a

01:33:23   lot of faith, but I hope you're right. It might not be this year. It could be next year. Yeah, maybe.

01:33:27   Anything else going on? Nope. I quietly relaunched my website that's not on Tumblr anymore.

01:33:38   What is the URL?

01:33:39   www.caseylist.com. Really inventive.

01:33:42   And that's my second crack,

01:33:46   or third crack, if you will. I don't really have a name for it.

01:33:50   What is the directory called for the project? It has to have something.

01:33:54   It does. It's camel, C-A-M-E-L, which is

01:33:58   kind of a port menu. I don't know how to pronounce the word,

01:34:02   but you see it on Wikipedia all the time. It's a mash of my first

01:34:06   middle names. But anyway, so yeah, so that's all written in Node and everyone's probably breaking it now, and that's okay.

01:34:12   So what's it going to take to get you off of the using your last name as a pun thing? Is that an impossible task?

01:34:18   It's never going to happen. No, I mean, I couldn't think of a good name. And I was, so that site, in many ways, is kind of a mashup of underscores and your two sites, both in terms of inspiration for CSS, inspiration for layout, things of that nature.

01:34:33   nature. And, um, and so I, I looked at underscore site after I had decided to call this thoughtless

01:34:42   and, um, he just calls his David Smith and obviously there's hypercritical there's Marco.org.

01:34:48   I didn't like Casey list.com. Um, I don't have a fancy pants name, like hypercritical

01:34:53   that I've been using for forever. Um, so I dunno, this was the first thing that I came

01:34:59   up with that didn't make me gag, but I'm not in love with it either.

01:35:04   Didn't you read that whole post that you wrote about not doubting yourself? You should

01:35:08   not have a title of the thing that says that you're thoughtless.

01:35:12   I knew that was coming. That's why, like I said, I'm not in love with what I've

01:35:15   got here, but that's all right.

01:35:18   You see, I've never seen you use the list last name pun in a way that wasn't self-deprecating.

01:35:24   Well, yeah, and that's kind of my shtick.

01:35:27   Well, because it sounds like less and there's not a lot of good words.

01:35:30   Weightless, I don't know, whatever.

01:35:35   But anyway, this is node and I I've been piddling with it a little bit lately.

01:35:40   Let me do a clock on it.

01:35:42   405 lines of code.

01:35:43   Basically the way it works is there's a series of Markdown files in a, in

01:35:49   directories that match the directories you see in the URLs, and then there's a

01:35:54   header and footer Markdown file.

01:35:56   And so if you go to any of these, any of these URLs and during fireball style,

01:36:01   if you put dot MD at the end, it'll show you the source.

01:36:04   And so I have a little bit of metadata at the top.

01:36:06   And then other than that, it just processes the markdown files, throws on a

01:36:11   header, throws on a footer and calls it a day.

01:36:13   And so it's a 405 lines of, of node using several packages because I haven't yet

01:36:21   been horribly burned by third-party software.

01:36:24   And I know I'm pretty proud of it.

01:36:25   I like it. It's not flawless, but I like it. I should call it flawless. That's what I should call it.

01:36:30   There you go. Finally, you figured one out that is not self-deprecating.

01:36:35   No, because that has "flaw" in it. It's like, "The flawless? Is this a list with the flaw?"

01:36:39   It's not. It doesn't. It's like, you can't use the last name as a pun.

01:36:43   I know, I know. I gotta think of a better name.

01:36:45   That's great. Even your brag had a self-deprecating root in it.

01:36:51   If this software didn't use Markdown, I might replace mine with it, but it does, so I won't.

01:36:56   What's wrong with Markdown? I don't like it.

01:36:58   You're a purist, right? Don't you write everything in actual HTML straight?

01:37:01   Yeah, I find that, for me, I find it better in all ways than writing in a Markdown. I don't want

01:37:06   to go through another translation. I'm going to publish HTML. I know how to write HTML. I write

01:37:12   it. I publish it. There's no, I don't have to say, "How is this going to transform? I don't need to

01:37:16   do a transformation." It's just, I don't know. That's how I work. I don't say that everyone else

01:37:20   has to do that, but that's the way I do it.

01:37:22   But anyway, most people seem to like Markdown,

01:37:23   and so they make all these apps that work with Markdown,

01:37:25   and if you don't want to use Markdown, it's not good.

01:37:27   Well, for what it's worth, Mark--

01:37:30   how am I-- I'm going to phrase this wrong, but Markdown is HTML?

01:37:33   No, that's the other way around.

01:37:34   Yeah, I know.

01:37:34   You can just write HTML and Markdown too,

01:37:36   but it's like, once I'm doing that,

01:37:37   then what the hell is the point?

01:37:38   Well, so what I'm saying is, with the-- so

01:37:40   if you look at any one of these URLs and put the .md at the end--

01:37:43   I did.

01:37:44   So I'm looking at the ATP Shirts one as an example.

01:37:48   You would have to have the at at and then, you know, the couple of metadata entries,

01:37:52   but everything below those, everything below that can all be straight HTML.

01:37:56   This looks, I know, but like this looks like my thing. Like I have the same format.

01:38:00   I only don't have at ats. I just have metadata on the top. I just use the mail format where

01:38:04   the first blank line ends the header section. And then I have the HTML.

01:38:08   Yeah. I do something similar, which is I have, I have like header format on top.

01:38:13   I don't know. Yeah. Keep talking. I'll, I'll show you one of mine.

01:38:17   Mine's weird, but it makes sense to me.

01:38:21   So that's what this is about.

01:38:23   It made sense to me.

01:38:24   I wanted to try something that I hadn't done before, which is Node.

01:38:28   And I like the code.

01:38:31   I don't love the code.

01:38:32   A part of me wants to throw it on GitHub and embarrass myself, but I really want to fix

01:38:38   a few things up before I do it.

01:38:40   Like for example, it's a good thing I only have two posts on there because if I go past,

01:38:45   I don't know, 10, it's gonna look ridiculous because I don't do pagination at the moment.

01:38:49   You'll figure that out.

01:38:51   Yeah, I mean, I actually already have a plan. I just haven't implemented it yet. I'm

01:38:55   gonna do like the world's worst pagination, which is kind of a loose pagination. Once

01:39:00   I get it worked out, maybe we'll talk about it in another after show. But yeah, so I'm

01:39:04   pretty proud of it. It's white, not because, "It's Casey who always says white."

01:39:08   It's white because I couldn't figure out a background color that I wanted.

01:39:12   It's white, of course.

01:39:14   But I don't know, I felt like I needed to spend all this time working out better CSS

01:39:19   because I suck at CSS.

01:39:21   For a brief moment, I thought about copying the Marco one color at the top and then everything

01:39:25   else below.

01:39:26   And then I looked at it the way it was and I was like, "You know, it's good enough.

01:39:30   Why fuss over it?"

01:39:31   So I'm pretty proud of it, as simple as it is, and maybe I'll open source it, maybe

01:39:36   I won't.

01:39:37   If you're even thinking about showing this code to anybody, it is a lot better than the

01:39:40   code that's running my chat because I would never show it to anybody.

01:39:43   I don't even like looking at it myself.

01:39:45   It's bad, but it's not awful.

01:39:47   There's definitely a lot of places where it could be cleaned up and spruced up and

01:39:53   made a lot cleaner.

01:39:54   I'm repeating myself in several places, but by and large, I don't think it's terrible.

01:39:59   I mean, to be honest, how bad can you really screw up 405 lines of JavaScript,

01:40:02   leaving aside the fact that it's JavaScript?

01:40:04   I've seen a lot of bad JavaScript.

01:40:06   Right.

01:40:07   It's definitely possible.

01:40:09   And the other thing is this, this, and I'm looking at the, uh, source that you

01:40:13   paste in the chat, Marco, uh, this is not a link blog.

01:40:17   I have no.

01:40:18   I have no support for like a link post versus a regular post, but so it's just

01:40:24   a blog, but I don't know, I dig it so far.

01:40:26   Yeah.

01:40:27   I don't have any support for link things either.

01:40:29   Not that I ever post them, but I mean, if I did, I would guess I would go and add

01:40:33   support to whatever the real, here's the real problem with adding links.

01:40:36   Everyone has already used up all the obvious characters for indicating links.

01:40:39   Yep, I completely agree. I 100% agree.

01:40:43   There's 100% the problem.

01:40:45   Well, you could steal my arrow afterwards. Is it arrow after arrow before?

01:40:48   It's not your arrow. Everybody uses the arrow. And then Daring Fireball uses a star for none,

01:40:53   and a lot of other people use it. Everyone uses the infinity for permalinks. And it's just like,

01:40:57   there's no more glyphs left. So the game over.

01:40:59   Well, what's wrong with just using the standard glyphs that everyone else uses?

01:41:03   Because you want to be different, Marco. You want to be your own special snowflake.

01:41:06   - Exactly, you wanna be a brand.

01:41:08   - Well you can't be your own special snowflake

01:41:09   'cause that's Dr. Drang.

01:41:10   - The real problem with link blogs, I think,

01:41:13   is that, you know, whether, there's two problems.

01:41:17   Number one is like what the feed items link to.

01:41:21   No matter which option you pick,

01:41:23   people will be upset and confused.

01:41:25   It's just different people.

01:41:26   - Yep, that's true.

01:41:27   - So that's one problem.

01:41:28   There's no good solution to that.

01:41:30   The other problem is when you choose a title

01:41:35   and a length of the post, it's confusing as to whether

01:41:38   you wrote this, whether that's your title of your post,

01:41:41   and then some people will get to your link post

01:41:46   permalink page and not realize that that big title

01:41:50   at the top is a link to something else.

01:41:52   - Well, I mean, you can avoid that by not making

01:41:54   the title be a link to anything on the page

01:41:57   when you're viewing it, you know what I mean?

01:41:59   When you're viewing just the page that just shows

01:42:03   that story, the title is not a link.

01:42:05   Every place else the title is a link

01:42:06   and then you have to choose where you want it to go.

01:42:08   But I would say you would make it go to the,

01:42:09   you know, I don't know, it's.

01:42:11   - Like where does the link go in a link post

01:42:13   on its promo page?

01:42:15   - I would mostly say it goes to the story.

01:42:16   Like I like the idea of linking from the text

01:42:20   that you write to the thing you're talking about

01:42:22   and not relying on the title to fill that role.

01:42:25   - Then it's kind of redundant, but then I don't know.

01:42:27   Like the big problem with link blogging

01:42:29   is that all of these questions,

01:42:32   like there's no clear good solution.

01:42:34   Like whatever you pick is gonna have issues.

01:42:37   - Yeah, you just have to pick one

01:42:38   and people just have to get used to it.

01:42:40   - Yeah.

01:42:41   - The RSS one is worse,

01:42:42   but most people don't seem to use RSS anymore these days,

01:42:44   so that kind of takes care of itself.

01:42:45   - I just use both.

01:42:46   I have an alternate feed in my footer

01:42:47   that has the other link style.

01:42:51   - I just noticed that earlier today,

01:42:52   which I'd never seen before, obviously.

01:42:54   The other thing I wanted to talk about briefly about this

01:42:56   was how I'm hosting it,

01:42:59   which is to say that I put it on Heroku

01:43:02   because for a one web dino, as they call it, it is absolutely free.

01:43:08   And from what I can tell, this didn't get absolutely crushed under the load of live

01:43:12   listeners.

01:43:15   But what was unique to me was that when I went to deploy to Heroku, having never used

01:43:22   Heroku before, I looked at how to do it.

01:43:27   And what it amounted to was I needed to add a proc file

01:43:31   to my source, which specifies that it is a website,

01:43:35   not like a worker or anything like that,

01:43:38   and its node and which node file to run.

01:43:42   I needed to clean up my package JSON,

01:43:45   which defines what my dependencies are, but that was it.

01:43:49   And then I pushed to a Git repository that they set up,

01:43:53   and suddenly I had a website.

01:43:55   - All right, now I'm not using your system anymore,

01:43:57   I thought it was generating static files, but I forgot that you're actually using it. Code runs when you yeah

01:44:02   No, I got a static. Well, and so basically everything is generated on the fly lazily

01:44:09   But once it's generated it's held in memory for some amount of time. I don't recall so you're right. It isn't static but

01:44:16   Nevertheless, I would assume that it should hold up to some pretty heavy load

01:44:23   Well, you can do the the cruddy thing which I considered doing before I decided even this was too much work with make a system

01:44:29   of dynamic generates web pages and then just crawl it yourself to create your static pages and then just upload the static ones

01:44:35   Maybe it's my own ignorance coming through but if I have everything in memory

01:44:39   How is it going to be that hard to answer a gazillion requests?

01:44:44   Like it's all there. It's rendered HTML in memory

01:44:48   I just got to look it up from a hash and dump it to the to the

01:44:52   to the request or to the response object.

01:44:55   So what else is there to worry about?

01:44:58   - That's the thing, I mean,

01:44:59   with all these static blogging systems,

01:45:01   static blogging is really great,

01:45:04   but, and I use it on my site,

01:45:06   but you can get almost all of the benefit

01:45:09   from just caching.

01:45:11   I mean, 'cause static blogging,

01:45:12   you have to change a few things.

01:45:14   If you do static, one of the main things is

01:45:16   you have to serve the same markup to everybody

01:45:18   and the same, like you have to serve the same content

01:45:21   for every hit.

01:45:22   You can't do server-side browser detection

01:45:25   or device detection and altering what you send,

01:45:28   mobile layout separately.

01:45:30   You have to serve everyone the same markup,

01:45:31   but with responsive design and with the removal of comments

01:45:35   or even outsourcing comments to other services

01:45:37   like Disqus where you used to embed a static JavaScript link

01:45:40   and the thing works,

01:45:41   if you relegate all dynamic functionality

01:45:45   to JavaScript embeds or to CSS with responsive design,

01:45:50   then it works.

01:45:50   you can do that exact same thing

01:45:53   either through a static system

01:45:54   or just put like a caching proxy in front of your server

01:45:58   and put like Varnish or Nginx in caching mode,

01:46:03   put those in front of your server,

01:46:04   just have it cache every hit for one second.

01:46:08   That's it, cache every page it serves

01:46:09   with a TTL of one second

01:46:12   and you'll be able to tolerate

01:46:13   almost every possible flood of traffic you will ever get

01:46:16   even if the thing is being generated from a database

01:46:19   on every hit that actually gets through.

01:46:21   It's static blogging, it does offer high performance,

01:46:25   but it also just offers a pretty strong degree

01:46:27   of simplicity for deployment.

01:46:29   - That's what I get, I'm not doing it for performance

01:46:31   reasons, I'm doing it 'cause I'm cheap,

01:46:33   and 'cause then you can deploy anywhere,

01:46:35   super, like I don't need anything to run any code,

01:46:37   and that's like, it's not just cheap,

01:46:39   but like you have the most options,

01:46:40   like it will literally work everywhere.

01:46:41   There is no, you don't need to run anything,

01:46:43   you don't need to have any software,

01:46:45   there is no software, like that's,

01:46:47   I mean, static blogging is not done for performance reasons.

01:46:49   It's just mostly for just you have all the options

01:46:52   in the world, it's gonna work everywhere,

01:46:54   on every single hosting system you could possibly imagine.

01:46:56   And yes, it will also happen to be performant

01:46:58   in all of them, but that's not really why you're doing it.

01:47:01   Like it just keeps--

01:47:01   - But hold on though.

01:47:02   There is software, they just move it.

01:47:04   I mean, that's the thing, like you said,

01:47:05   there is no software, but unless you're actually

01:47:06   writing HTML pages, which most people are not doing,

01:47:09   there absolutely is software involved

01:47:11   and that has to be maintained and it has to run somewhere.

01:47:14   It's just running on your computer.

01:47:16   like the thing that generates the files.

01:47:18   - Oh yeah, no, yeah, well I mean, yeah,

01:47:20   but you control that.

01:47:21   Like it's not, your deployment options are unlimited.

01:47:24   You can move from one hosting provider to another.

01:47:26   You don't have to worry if they don't support Node.js

01:47:29   or have a different version

01:47:30   or make some sort of complicated thing

01:47:32   or need a different deployment.

01:47:33   It's like you just are syncing files somewhere.

01:47:36   And that's, you know,

01:47:36   and if you have a site that actually gets traffic,

01:47:38   then you don't have to worry about this, then fine, right?

01:47:40   Some code deployed, but like,

01:47:42   my site doesn't get any traffic.

01:47:43   I want the cheapest possible thing I can possibly get,

01:47:46   and that ends up being static hosting.

01:47:48   And you know, you get what you pay for,

01:47:50   but that's why I did it static,

01:47:52   not because I was looking for performance.

01:47:54   Although occasionally I do get traffic bursts,

01:47:56   and it's nice that I don't have to worry about them

01:47:58   because, again, it's static.

01:47:59   I don't even use, it is super static.

01:48:02   Some people are like, "Well, it's static,"

01:48:03   but I use some server-side include system

01:48:07   or something to put in headers.

01:48:08   Nope, 100% static.

01:48:10   - Yeah, and that's the thing is that,

01:48:12   Admittedly, this is dynamic the first run, but like I said, you know as soon as I've parsed the markdown for any of these pages

01:48:18   It's held in memory for at least half an hour

01:48:21   If not more than that until I either deliberately toss the cash or you know at times out or whatever

01:48:28   So this isn't a challenge or anything like that

01:48:31   But I I feel like I should in principle be able to understand to

01:48:35   Handle a crud load of traffic without crumbling

01:48:38   Yeah, you should.

01:48:39   But yours is static in the respect that really matters

01:48:42   for performance in that you're not talking to a database.

01:48:45   For example, the files that you're reading are static.

01:48:48   They just happen to be filled with Markdown,

01:48:50   and you do a little bit of post-processing in memory.

01:48:52   And it's not even like-- Node is a single process,

01:48:54   like event-driven, right?

01:48:56   Yep.

01:48:56   It's a single process.

01:48:57   So you don't even have to worry about your cache getting

01:48:59   divided through Apache Children or some other concern

01:49:01   that you might have with-- yeah, you're fine.

01:49:04   And really, just like me, no one's

01:49:06   going to read your blog, so we're both fine.

01:49:08   Except really, really no one's going to read my blog.

01:49:11   Whereas nobody reads yours.

01:49:13   We can compete.

01:49:13   You'd be surprised how few people read my blog.

01:49:15   Well, you never post, which that's exactly.

01:49:18   If you never post anything, nobody reads it.

01:49:20   I don't know how that works.

01:49:21   And admittedly, I'm not good at that either.

01:49:22   And I'm hoping this will make me better, but I don't know.

01:49:25   So yeah, I don't, I just, it was a lot of fun.

01:49:27   It was a lot of fun to do.

01:49:28   I'm still, I'm still very impressed with how unbelievably simple Heroku was to

01:49:33   deploy to because truly I had heard of it, but never really done anything with it.

01:49:38   And it must have been well under half an hour, maybe even under 15 minutes between the time

01:49:43   I said, "You know what?

01:49:44   Let me just see if I can throw this on Heroku and if it'll work," and the time that I had

01:49:47   it not only up there, but I'd updated my DNS to point to it.

01:49:51   It was unbelievably quick and easy, and that really is awesome.

01:49:55   Yeah, but is it $5 a month?

01:49:58   It's $0 a month.

01:49:59   Oh, that's right.

01:50:00   You're doing that.

01:50:01   Yeah.

01:50:02   Yeah, he's beating you, Jon.

01:50:03   Yeah, I guess that's true, but then he's stuck deploying someplace that supports Node.js.

01:50:06   You know, they also support PHP.

01:50:08   - Yeah, great.

01:50:09   What are the limits?

01:50:11   Like when do you start to start paying?

01:50:12   - I have no, I honestly don't know.

01:50:14   I mean, basically if I add more web front ends,

01:50:17   then that costs money.

01:50:19   But in terms of like bandwidth or, you know,

01:50:22   I don't know if after 30 gigs used or something like that.

01:50:25   - Well, you're not gonna hit the bandwidth limit.

01:50:26   It might be like CPU time or something.

01:50:28   What we need to do is get one of your stories

01:50:30   to go up on like Hacker News

01:50:32   and like a bunch of other sites simultaneously

01:50:33   And the Daring Fireball link, and Marco will link it.

01:50:36   And everyone will tweet it, and we'll

01:50:38   see if you get into the pay zone.

01:50:40   Because even though I don't have anything on my blog

01:50:42   and don't post anything, every once in a while,

01:50:44   some random story will land on some social media site.

01:50:46   And all of a sudden, I'll have a spike.

01:50:48   It's not a big spike, but it's big enough

01:50:49   that I would worry that I would go out of the free zone

01:50:51   and start getting charged some crazy amount of money.

01:50:54   I love how that's how the world control Casey,

01:50:57   by making him popular.

01:50:58   Yeah.

01:50:59   We need a way to test the system here, right?

01:51:01   [BLANK_AUDIO]