62: Journey Would Be Wasted On You


00:00:00   You think if we wait another decade, this 90s musical will wrap around and become awesome,

00:00:06   like the 80s music did, or will that just never happen?

00:00:12   As I always do, I listened to this show last week, and I kept waiting for myself to make

00:00:16   a point that I meant to make during the show, and it's conceivable that I stopped paying

00:00:21   attention for three seconds and missed myself saying this, so if I'm repeating something

00:00:26   I said in the very last show, I apologize.

00:00:29   So to be clear, you are following up with your theoretical past self.

00:00:33   Yeah, like I mean, I didn't have, you know, I don't have notes or anything, but when we

00:00:36   were talking about PSEL, I'm like, this is one of the major points I want to make, and

00:00:40   it's about scaling, which we also talked about in the last show, and I don't know how I could

00:00:44   have possibly managed to miss it.

00:00:46   But just in case, anyway, one of the innovations that the company that makes the PSEL thing

00:00:53   is supposedly bringing to the table is the ability to solve this problem that we discussed

00:00:58   in the last show, we're just sort of solving for what signal needs to be sent out by all

00:01:05   the various towers so that the interference combines to make exactly the right signals

00:01:10   in exactly the right place. So not just for one phone, but for two, ten, five, a thousand,

00:01:15   whatever. Every single one of those, all the towers that are transmitting that could possibly

00:01:20   be overlapping and interfering with each other, need to do so in such a way that every individual

00:01:24   phone gets exactly the signal it's meant for it in exactly the spot that the phone is.

00:01:30   And that, as you can imagine, requires fast communication between all the nodes, but also

00:01:35   a lot of processing power.

00:01:36   And the supposed innovation that the companies bring—I think Artemis is the name of it—that

00:01:41   the companies bring is the ability to solve that problem.

00:01:44   "Hey, everybody, what signal do all these towers need to put out so exactly the right

00:01:47   signals go in exactly the right places?"

00:01:49   To solve it in real time, scaling linearly with the number of phones.

00:01:54   So instead of, "Oh, we can solve for two phones or three phones, but as we go up to 10 phones,

00:01:58   then it becomes like 100 times harder to solve.

00:02:01   And if we go up to 1,000 phones, it's like a million times harder to solve, and there's

00:02:03   no way we could do it."

00:02:05   Supposedly they have a system where they can just add computers in a more or less linear

00:02:09   fashion to support more phones within the cell area.

00:02:14   And so that's what allows this system to be possible, that they're saying, "We have the

00:02:20   computing capability to do this.

00:02:21   We have the communication infrastructure to do it.

00:02:23   And we have come up with a way to solve whatever this problem is, to solve for the output that

00:02:30   all these towers need to put out to make constructive interference in just the right way.

00:02:36   And we can do it linearly.

00:02:37   Because if you couldn't do it linearly, you can imagine that maybe it would work for like

00:02:41   a trade show or something, but for an entire city with thousands upon thousands of cell

00:02:45   phones, if it didn't scale linearly, you've got big problems in terms of computing power.

00:02:50   And so that is one of, perhaps the most important claim, that and the ability to do with existing

00:02:54   cell phones over existing LTE networks without requiring special hardware on the handsets.

00:02:58   Those two things are the two things that make P cell possible, again, according to the claims.

00:03:03   We'll see how it shakes out.

00:03:05   All right.

00:03:07   And the next bit of follow-up was actually for me for once.

00:03:10   It doesn't happen often, but it does occasionally happen.

00:03:13   Last episode at the end, I was discussing, or John and I, and occasionally Casey making

00:03:17   vinyl references, we're discussing scaling and the difference between scaling and performance.

00:03:23   And in it, I discussed how when I'm writing web apps, I don't use database joins. In fact,

00:03:30   I don't use them in local apps either, but that's more because of my framework. Anyway,

00:03:35   so I don't use database joins and the reason why I don't use database joins is for various

00:03:40   scaling concerns and basically to keep my options open for splitting up that database

00:03:44   in the future and also to shift as much work as possible onto the

00:03:48   easy and cheap to scale web/application servers

00:03:52   and leave the hard and expensive to scale database server with as light of a workload

00:03:56   as possible. Anyway, so I got a bunch of feedback on

00:04:00   that from a lot of people. A handful of people who agreed with me and a whole bunch of

00:04:04   people who disagreed. The people who agreed are typically people who had

00:04:08   done it before, who had worked on large

00:04:12   large scale applications before who had seen these exact problems and solved them in the same way.

00:04:17   So of course they would agree because they did it the same way themselves.

00:04:22   The biggest argument against my technique of not using joins was that

00:04:26   we've never needed that in our organization or in our project, or I've personally never needed that in my project.

00:04:33   So you might as well use database as much as you can and when you need it then you cross that bridge.

00:04:42   And to me, I wrote a quick thing on my blog,

00:04:44   so I'm not gonna go too far into it,

00:04:45   but basically I think that's kind of the wrong angle

00:04:48   to approach scaling questions from.

00:04:50   Scaling is constantly asking yourself, then what?

00:04:55   So, okay, you have this, so far you have all these things

00:04:59   on one server because that one server is enough.

00:05:01   But then what happens when it's not enough, then what?

00:05:04   And scaling well and building scalable systems

00:05:08   means trying to anticipate some of those

00:05:11   than what scenarios.

00:05:12   And having a decent answer for it

00:05:14   that's not gonna involve rewrite half your code

00:05:17   and comb through your whole code base

00:05:19   and make sure you aren't using joins anywhere anymore

00:05:22   or rewrite, 'cause if you think about,

00:05:25   not only is that a ton of work,

00:05:27   and it could potentially introduce tons of bugs

00:05:30   if you haven't written this way from the beginning,

00:05:33   but also you'd probably be doing that

00:05:36   under incredible pressure and time constraints

00:05:39   because you're probably doing that because you hit

00:05:41   an oh crap moment in your scaling and you realize,

00:05:44   oh wait a minute, I've added the most RAM to this

00:05:47   than I could possibly add and it's not helping.

00:05:50   Or this, I've done everything I can with one box

00:05:53   and it still isn't enough, what do I do?

00:05:56   And if you don't plan for those,

00:06:00   and obviously this is all qualified with,

00:06:04   to an extent or within reason.

00:06:06   You don't have to plan to be the next Facebook

00:06:08   because you probably won't be.

00:06:09   And if you do become the next Facebook,

00:06:11   you can hire a bunch of smarter people

00:06:12   that need to do all this as you get that big.

00:06:14   But even just going from tiny to small,

00:06:19   or from small to midsize,

00:06:21   you're gonna hit some of these questions

00:06:23   and you're not gonna have a giant IT staff,

00:06:26   you're not gonna have infinite money,

00:06:27   you're not gonna have infinite time.

00:06:29   And so it's worth considering that because,

00:06:31   and a lot of people would say,

00:06:34   oh, this is about premature optimization.

00:06:36   And premature optimization is wrong, period.

00:06:38   'cause you've heard that before and it sounds good.

00:06:41   And the fact is that's,

00:06:42   premature optimization is not always wrong or bad.

00:06:46   It's a trade-off.

00:06:47   You're trading, in most cases,

00:06:48   you're trading some complexity

00:06:51   for some or a lot of performance.

00:06:53   Or in the case of scaling,

00:06:57   options in the future for better scaling

00:07:00   or easier scaling or possible scaling.

00:07:02   And so premature optimization

00:07:05   and designing things to be scalable can be worthwhile

00:07:09   if it's relatively easy and if there's not a lot

00:07:12   of major costs to it, both in time and in maintenance

00:07:16   and limitations in the app and other things.

00:07:19   Like if it's relatively easy to make better decisions

00:07:23   that make your app more scalable the whole time

00:07:25   you're designing it, you should do it

00:07:27   because it's like a best practice.

00:07:30   It isn't that much more work and you might never need it,

00:07:34   But when you do need it, you'll be very glad you have it.

00:07:37   So I guess that's it on that topic for now.

00:07:40   Do you guys have any other follow up on scaling?

00:07:42   - I think there were two other threads of feedback

00:07:45   on the thing.

00:07:46   One were the people who were saying that it sounded

00:07:50   like you were using MySQL without using

00:07:52   any relational features.

00:07:53   So here are a bunch of non-relational data stores

00:07:56   that you could use instead.

00:07:57   So there was a couple people who had that.

00:07:59   And then the other one was, I think maybe it was

00:08:01   just one person, but I thought it was a good point

00:08:03   that we didn't get to, is that depending

00:08:05   on the nature of your application,

00:08:07   if you have something that's sort of non-interactive

00:08:09   and trivially silo-able, you could get away with--

00:08:13   you wouldn't have to worry about this join type thing,

00:08:15   because all you would do is just sort of shard up by customer.

00:08:18   And one customer's data would never mingle with another's.

00:08:21   And at that point, then you have your entire scale,

00:08:25   your entire horizontal scaling strategy

00:08:27   is entirely based on divvying users up

00:08:28   into smaller and smaller bins.

00:08:30   And you just need some way to figure out

00:08:31   user's bin is, and that could be something super fast and easily scalable.

00:08:37   And then just the bins, it's like, well, if the bin is too slow, my solution is to cut

00:08:40   the bin in half.

00:08:41   And that point, if you do joins against the bins, it doesn't matter.

00:08:44   All it does is make you have to cut them into pieces sooner.

00:08:47   Obviously, social applications are not like this, where there's some sort of global awareness,

00:08:53   or you're following that person's things and they're following yours or whatever.

00:08:57   Most systems are not this simple, but it was a good point that it really depends on the

00:09:00   shape of your system. What does the state look like in your thing? What state are you

00:09:05   tracking? How is the state related to the other state? And if you're sure that there

00:09:11   is no interrelations, nor will there be in the future, you can get away with just sharding

00:09:16   by user.

00:09:17   That's a very big if, though. And I agree. If you have something like, for instance,

00:09:23   if you look at something like Zendesk or FreshBooks, these hosted applications that they create

00:09:30   a little site or thing for you as the customer. And these are, by definition, very private

00:09:35   things that none of their other customers ever need to access your data. In fact, it

00:09:41   should not be possible for them to access your data. So it makes sense when you have

00:09:45   something that is that strictly divided by user, where the users will never have to interact

00:09:51   with each other or their data. It makes sense to then do that kind of sharding there.

00:09:56   But if you have any kind of consumer facing

00:10:00   general purpose service kind of thing,

00:10:02   like there are so many options for cross data referencing.

00:10:07   And if you start out with a system

00:10:12   that's charted in that way,

00:10:13   then first of all, that is a pretty big limitation

00:10:18   you put in yourself on your development

00:10:19   and it does add complexity

00:10:20   and it does add management complexity.

00:10:22   So that's the kind of thing that I would be very careful

00:10:26   decide, if you're deciding that up front to do that from the beginning, I would be very

00:10:29   careful with that decision, because that really will limit you later, and it might not be

00:10:35   necessary or it might not be right, or you might have to pivot into something that has

00:10:40   a little bit more data crossover.

00:10:44   Even consumer-facing systems, though, I think real systems that are out there, a lot of

00:10:48   the times they will take the part of their system that scales in this way and scale it

00:10:52   in that way, and then use a different strategy for the interrelated, because that's what

00:10:55   have to end up doing when you scale things is you're going to end up breaking apart the

00:10:59   functionality of your application, which is part of the reason why you're not doing joins,

00:11:02   but just like in the grand scheme of things, like maybe user information could be sharded

00:11:06   up nicely by user, but then all the interrelated information has an entirely different backend

00:11:10   with an entirely different scaling strategy.

00:11:12   You end up, you know, it's the whole service-oriented architecture thing, you end up with different

00:11:16   pieces of your application scaling in different ways, because very often it's not, there is

00:11:19   no one master scaling solution for your entire app, you have to look at it in pieces, and

00:11:23   like the login flow is like this, session management

00:11:25   is like this, user information is like this,

00:11:27   relationship management is like this.

00:11:29   I mean, one of the crazy examples,

00:11:30   I remember I wrote a story a while back

00:11:32   about how LinkedIn had a fairly standard looking back end

00:11:35   except for the part that handled all the relationships

00:11:37   and that had to be on a server where it was all in memory.

00:11:40   And I remember reading that and feeling bad for them

00:11:41   'cause it's like, you know,

00:11:43   that's like a built-in time bomb for scaling.

00:11:45   Like they're racing more as law to see

00:11:48   will the relationship information in LinkedIn

00:11:52   get big faster than we can buy machines,

00:11:54   faster than the amount of RAM

00:11:56   we can stuff into a single machine.

00:11:58   And so that's kind of an unfortunate thing,

00:11:59   but it's obvious they didn't use that same scaling strategy

00:12:01   for the user information,

00:12:02   it was just for the relationship information,

00:12:04   which is another system.

00:12:05   And then one more thing, that's the then what question.

00:12:08   One of the then what's that you haven't asked

00:12:11   and didn't have to ask for a Tumblr,

00:12:13   I guess probably will never have to ask

00:12:14   for any of your applications,

00:12:15   but I think a lot of people thinking about

00:12:18   the then what's should consider

00:12:19   is the idea of making database accesses from essentially a web

00:12:26   application, or any application for that matter,

00:12:28   like the code that is running your thing,

00:12:30   it connects to a database.

00:12:32   Very often in these large applications,

00:12:34   they need to find somewhere to scale.

00:12:36   They have to put a layer in between there.

00:12:38   So you want some kind of data access layer

00:12:40   that does not connect to the database to get information.

00:12:43   And so if you're using something like, what is it,

00:12:45   FC model or whatever you're using,

00:12:46   or any of these things that basically you're

00:12:49   you're putting SQL in your code somewhere, right?

00:12:52   And you're like, well, it doesn't matter.

00:12:53   You don't see the SQL.

00:12:54   It's all abstracted away, but essentially what you're making

00:12:56   is a front end to do SQL queries for you.

00:12:58   Like if I needed to, I could swap that out

00:13:00   for something that didn't talk directly to a database,

00:13:03   but it would be kind of painful.

00:13:05   And so if you make a data access layer

00:13:07   that is agnostic to the destination,

00:13:09   either you make it work over HTTP from the very start

00:13:11   and then have sort of a web service back end

00:13:14   that gets you that information, you're like,

00:13:15   well, that seems like it's gonna be slower

00:13:17   and it seems like a waste of time

00:13:19   and I'm never going to need to do that, maybe you're right.

00:13:20   But in my experience, a lot of applications,

00:13:23   one of the first things they run into,

00:13:24   even if they have perfect horizontal scalability

00:13:26   in terms of sharding users,

00:13:27   'cause it's that type of thing.

00:13:28   Say it's like a B2B business where you're always,

00:13:31   you know, your customers do want their things to be solid.

00:13:34   Like, oh, it's no problem.

00:13:35   Well, eventually you'll run into the realization

00:13:37   that most, especially if you're using a relational database,

00:13:39   most relational database products are not made

00:13:42   to support the number of connections

00:13:43   that are anything close to sort of the scale

00:13:45   of users on a website.

00:13:47   And so you have to conserve those database connections.

00:13:49   You need some sort of, I mean,

00:13:50   they have database connection pooling,

00:13:51   all the other strategies, but in general,

00:13:53   if you divorce your application as much as possible

00:13:55   from where it's getting its information,

00:13:57   even if that information is in a database now,

00:14:00   having some sort of transport layer in there,

00:14:02   like even something as dumb as HTTP for some kind of,

00:14:04   again, service-oriented architecture type of thing,

00:14:06   that seems terrible for performance,

00:14:09   and often is much worse for performance.

00:14:11   And that's why people say, no,

00:14:13   Casey's probably, he was complaining about

00:14:15   having to make a round trip to the database for multiple--

00:14:18   imagine if you had to make an HTTP request or something,

00:14:20   and then that something would potentially go to a database.

00:14:22   That's even more overhead.

00:14:23   And yes, you are sacrificing performance and complexity

00:14:26   for along an axis that you think you might need to--

00:14:30   if that then what says, OK, well, we're

00:14:35   out of database connections, then what?

00:14:38   Or having the application connect directly to the database

00:14:42   is a security concern or a networking issue or whatever,

00:14:46   then what?

00:14:47   If you do everything as a service,

00:14:48   then you could have multiple data centers and different--

00:14:52   do everything over HTTP and do geographic load balancing

00:14:55   and have all this-- it gives you more flexibility.

00:14:57   So that's a then what.

00:14:59   That's just one more then what that I've

00:15:01   come across many times in my working career.

00:15:03   And every time I've either designed or been working

00:15:06   on an application that connects directly to a database,

00:15:08   I've regretted it.

00:15:09   But your mileage may vary.

00:15:11   - No, I mean, I agree, and I'm pretty sure,

00:15:13   I don't actually know this for sure,

00:15:14   because when I left, I actually did leave,

00:15:17   but I'm pretty sure at Tumblr,

00:15:20   that was one of the big things they did

00:15:23   pretty soon after I left.

00:15:24   Once they got a more experienced staff in there

00:15:28   who had worked on systems of that size,

00:15:30   and it was, I mean, one of the reasons I left

00:15:32   was that it was getting pretty far beyond

00:15:34   my ability to scale it myself.

00:15:35   And that's one of the first things they did,

00:15:39   was moved to that kind of architecture.

00:15:41   And that does make sense.

00:15:42   That is one of those things again, where I'd like,

00:15:45   I think you can go a pretty long way without doing that.

00:15:49   And so again, and it's a premature optimization

00:15:53   that you, you know, it might be worth it for you to do that.

00:15:57   In my case, it almost never is.

00:16:00   And it never, well, it never has been so far,

00:16:02   but certainly that is something that might be worth doing.

00:16:05   - I don't like that phrase though,

00:16:06   but it's like it built into a premature optimization,

00:16:08   premature is saying you're doing it sooner than you need to.

00:16:11   These are optimizations.

00:16:12   Because that's one of the vocabulary tools

00:16:16   wielded by programmers and arguments.

00:16:17   Like, well, that's a premature optimization.

00:16:19   It's a tautology.

00:16:20   You are asserting that it is premature

00:16:22   by calling it premature.

00:16:24   Why is it premature?

00:16:25   Is it too early or is it not too early?

00:16:27   That's the whole argument that we're supposed to be having.

00:16:28   And you can't win that argument by pulling out

00:16:30   the term premature optimization.

00:16:32   That just explains what your position is,

00:16:33   but then you still have to defend it.

00:16:34   So all these optimizations, what you're saying, Marco,

00:16:36   is like, they're not premature.

00:16:38   this is in fact exactly the right time to do it,

00:16:40   because my expectation is x, y, and z.

00:16:42   And then you're arguing about, are we ever going to get big?

00:16:45   As we scale, which thing will break first?

00:16:48   You have to basically decide, what

00:16:49   is our maximum possible size?

00:16:51   What's the first thing that's going to fall over?

00:16:53   How long can we go doing joins?

00:16:55   How long can we go directly connecting to the database

00:16:57   and just map them out and have arguments

00:16:59   about which one you think is going to come first?

00:17:01   And then you live and learn, and applications change shape

00:17:04   as you go, and inevitably you make some bad choices.

00:17:06   And maybe you go, oh, I thought we

00:17:07   were going to grow in this way.

00:17:08   but it turns out this feature ended up being much more popular, and we hit this thing before

00:17:11   we hit that thing. So you're always trying to second guess what the future is. But the

00:17:14   whole point is, don't do any premature optimizations. Do ones that you know are not premature, in

00:17:20   fact, they're exactly the right time to do them. And to know what that is, you kind of

00:17:25   have to guess, but you use your experience and your knowledge of building similar applications

00:17:29   in the past. Right, like maybe instead of thinking of them

00:17:33   as premature, you think of them as whether they're worthwhile or not. Anyway, and the

00:17:38   The only other thing I would say about having that multi-tiered architecture is, for whatever

00:17:44   it's worth, if database connections are your problem, you're in a weird situation I've

00:17:50   never seen before.

00:17:52   I have never seen a database be limited by its number of connections.

00:17:56   Maybe that's because I write my code to disconnect when it's done.

00:18:00   Connecting and disconnecting is another thing.

00:18:02   A lot of, especially old school relations databases, are not designed to handle connection

00:18:06   storms.

00:18:08   How many users can try to connect to your database once?

00:18:10   Say 100,000 users want to connect at the same time.

00:18:13   What does that do?

00:18:14   Versus those 100,000 users being spread out over a minute, over 30 seconds, over one second.

00:18:18   How does it handle that?

00:18:20   And then you're like, "Well, we'll have persistent connections."

00:18:22   Okay, but now you have people tying up connections, and now you have the number.

00:18:25   I see it all the time.

00:18:26   Yeah, fair enough.

00:18:28   That's probably more usage-specific with whatever your application actually is, and however

00:18:34   your layer actually treats the database connection.

00:18:37   And how good your pooling solution is, because again, relational databases, depending on

00:18:40   their vintage, may or may not have robust pooling solutions.

00:18:43   At Google scale, though, one of the fun things is you run out of port numbers.

00:18:47   Oh, yeah.

00:18:48   Right, so when they do the web sockets and they're like, you know, what do you get?

00:18:51   It's like a 16-bit number.

00:18:52   You get 65,000 of them or whatever.

00:18:54   And at Google scale, you run into limitations in the operating system.

00:18:59   You're like, well, this machine could support more connections, but we were literally out

00:19:02   of port numbers.

00:19:03   That's insane.

00:19:04   It makes sense, but that is not something I ever would think to be a problem.

00:19:07   - Yeah, well that's what Google's for,

00:19:08   to find those limits and patch Linux to overcome them

00:19:12   and figure something else out.

00:19:14   - Yeah, I'll say the other thing,

00:19:15   I never got into the level where I had to start

00:19:17   tweaking kernel settings and things like that.

00:19:19   Like we would use the kernel's stock

00:19:21   because that was like,

00:19:23   and again, I don't know what Tumblr's situation is now.

00:19:26   They're way bigger now,

00:19:27   especially now that Yahoo bought them.

00:19:28   They're probably getting a lot of help from Yahoo's people

00:19:31   and running on some of Yahoo's infrastructure, who knows.

00:19:33   But certainly at the time I left,

00:19:35   that we never had to get into that.

00:19:37   And yeah, anyway, we are sponsored this week

00:19:41   by our friends once again at HelpSpot.

00:19:43   Now, if you're still using email clients

00:19:45   for customer support,

00:19:46   you're probably losing track of important tickets,

00:19:49   trying to use Mark as Unread as an organizational tool,

00:19:51   and IMing coworkers to see who's working on what.

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00:21:16   - All right, I have a question for the both of you guys.

00:21:20   And I think it applies to both of you,

00:21:23   but I'm gonna start with you, Marco.

00:21:24   So how do you get outside of your comfort zone

00:21:28   and learn something new?

00:21:29   And if you think about your history,

00:21:33   You wrote Tumblr in PHP, you wrote Instapaper in PHP,

00:21:38   you used MySQL for both the magazine PHP and MySQL,

00:21:42   now Overcast PHP and MySQL, even Second Crack,

00:21:46   which was kind of a for fun pet project,

00:21:49   was PHP and MySQL, or well, I guess not MySQL, but PHP.

00:21:52   How do you learn something new?

00:21:56   How do you go about that?

00:21:57   Do you not care?

00:21:58   Does it not bother you?

00:21:59   Do you just don't think it's an issue right now

00:22:01   and you'll learn it when you need to?

00:22:03   because the only thing, the only example that I can think of knowing your history is when

00:22:06   you learned iOS development for Instapaper, but have, what have you done since then? And

00:22:11   what cued me off on this was everyone saying you should look at, you know, NoSQL databases,

00:22:17   and you basically said, "Well, I've got MySQL and it works fine for me."

00:22:21   Well, it's a combination of factors. I mean, one is certainly that I'm not very good

00:22:26   at making myself learn new things if I don't have to. You know, that's, that's just

00:22:30   a character flaw I guess. No question, that's one of the factors.

00:22:34   But also, there's two others. One is

00:22:38   conservatism. That, you know,

00:22:42   I've been on the cutting edge before. I have lived in the cutting edge

00:22:46   world before. And it's a lot of work. And it's a lot of

00:22:50   maintenance and versions of weird things running on your server that crash

00:22:54   in the middle of the night and need attention, or hitting weird bugs that

00:22:58   because you're running such a new version of things

00:23:00   or such a new technology that hasn't really

00:23:02   had all the bugs ironed out yet.

00:23:05   So that's another big part of it that I just,

00:23:08   I'm now at a point where I want to avoid

00:23:10   those kind of costs if I can.

00:23:12   And that's not always going to be the case.

00:23:14   And sometimes it's worth the cost.

00:23:16   So for instance, on overcast servers,

00:23:18   I've decided to run HHVM as the interpreter layer

00:23:23   because it is just so much faster than PHP.

00:23:26   And what I'm probably gonna do,

00:23:27   I was setting up my load balancing today,

00:23:30   and I'm probably going to have two web front-end VMs to start.

00:23:34   And one of them I'll run HHVM, and one of them I'll run PHP.

00:23:36   So if it crashes weirdly, I'll still

00:23:38   have something to take up the slack until I fix it.

00:23:42   But for whatever it's worth, generally speaking,

00:23:46   I try to avoid the cost of being on the bleeding edge,

00:23:50   because I've decided it's not worth it.

00:23:52   You might have a different calculation on that

00:23:54   for whatever your application might be.

00:23:55   For me, I've just decided it's not

00:23:57   being on the bleeding edge. Now that being said, obviously there's

00:24:01   a lot of things that I could learn besides PHP and MySQL and Objective-C

00:24:05   for iOS development. There's a lot of things I could learn that are mature

00:24:09   and are far from being on the bleeding edge these days. And for most of those

00:24:13   I haven't simply because it hasn't yet been really necessary.

00:24:17   Learning things has a big cost and I have to weigh whether

00:24:21   it's worth going through the learning period, going through the period of finding all of the

00:24:25   intricate details of the behavior and finding out the best ways to do things

00:24:29   and learning the APIs in enough depth to use them really

00:24:33   well. And I'm at that point with the technologies I know now for the most part.

00:24:37   And for me to learn a whole new language or platform

00:24:41   or something, it has to be worth that learning curve.

00:24:45   And I've decided that for what I'm doing currently it's not worth

00:24:49   that. And part of that, obviously like on the iOS side

00:24:53   I don't think there's anything I can learn that would be better than Objective-C.

00:24:56   I don't think there are any better things really than, you know, for what I'm doing,

00:25:00   I think I'm using the best things already.

00:25:02   For the website, certainly you can do a lot better than PHP these days.

00:25:07   I still would argue that that might not be the case for MySQL,

00:25:11   but certainly you can do a lot better than PHP.

00:25:14   The main reason I haven't gone there on the website

00:25:17   is not only that I don't really need to,

00:25:22   to, like nothing's forcing me, and not only do I already know it and it's

00:25:26   very stable, but also I just don't care that much about the website.

00:25:30   I am not that interested in running cutting edge web stuff or even

00:25:34   learning new web stuff that I don't really have to learn because the website to me

00:25:38   is a supporting role. I am not making a web app

00:25:42   that happens to have an iOS client. I'm making an iOS app that happens

00:25:46   to have a web backend. And that's where my focus is. I care

00:25:50   so much more about the iOS thing. That's why I want to be cutting edge on the iOS side.

00:25:54   I want to be doing everything right on the iOS side. But the

00:25:58   web side is really just serving a supporting role here and

00:26:02   it's more important for me. I don't care about new

00:26:06   web stuff. I'm very interested in learning new frameworks for iOS.

00:26:10   It's not like when so much of this cool stuff that's coming around like Grand Central Dispatch and stuff like that,

00:26:14   like so much of this cool stuff that's coming around in iOS, I'm really into. I love that stuff.

00:26:18   I find it very interesting.

00:26:19   - That's a fair point.

00:26:20   - New web stuff, I just don't care about.

00:26:22   I don't care about web programming.

00:26:24   I really don't enjoy web programming anymore.

00:26:26   I find it very boring.

00:26:27   And I do it because I have to

00:26:29   to build the products I want.

00:26:31   So the primary goal is,

00:26:34   I like client-side programming for iOS in C,

00:26:36   and Objective-C,

00:26:38   and I like the products that result from these things.

00:26:40   And so the web code base is really just a,

00:26:43   you know, supporting role for that.

00:26:44   So for me, my priority there

00:26:47   "Just get it done. I don't want to spend a ton of time on it. Just get it done so that it can do what I need it to do."

00:26:52   And that doesn't include, like, learn a bunch of new web languages when I'm

00:26:57   not really being presented with clear motivations to do that.

00:27:02   Yeah, that makes sense. And I think the

00:27:07   most surprising use of PHP for me isn't

00:27:12   or Instapaper or Tumblr, it's second crack.

00:27:15   And granted, it makes perfect sense

00:27:17   that you would use something you're familiar with,

00:27:18   especially for a project that's not gonna make any money

00:27:21   and you're just doing for the heck of it.

00:27:23   But when I write something outside of work

00:27:26   and I do it for fun,

00:27:28   I tend to force myself to use a different technology.

00:27:31   For example, I wrote FastText, which is an iOS app,

00:27:35   and I did that in Objective-C because I didn't know

00:27:37   Objective-C and I wanted to learn it.

00:27:39   And I have been dabbling with writing my own kind of second crack.

00:27:44   Let's call it third crack for the sake of a conversation.

00:27:46   I've been using Node because I've heard a lot of great things about Node and I wanted

00:27:49   to try it.

00:27:50   I've actually really, really come to like it.

00:27:52   And it's just surprising to me, perhaps because you don't have a corporate stooge

00:27:56   job so you have a lot more control over your own destiny, but it's surprising to me that

00:28:01   you don't have this thirst to learn something new.

00:28:06   When I don't learn a new language in about a six-month to one-year window, I start to

00:28:11   get kind of crabby and angsty and anxious, and I really need to learn something new.

00:28:17   And it seems like, for better or worse, that doesn't seem to apply to you.

00:28:21   Well, it does, and totally.

00:28:23   I get that, like, the programmer itch, basically.

00:28:26   I totally get that.

00:28:27   But I satisfy it in different areas than the web language I use.

00:28:32   crack, you know, for those who don't know or care, the second crack is my custom static

00:28:36   blogging engine that I wrote. And it's just like a bunch of command line scripts basically,

00:28:40   and they're all written in PHP. And I'm probably the only person in the universe using PHP

00:28:44   to write command line scripts, and that's fine. And you're right, that totally would

00:28:49   have been a great opportunity to try a new language, because it was a small project with

00:28:53   small needs that was not very pressing to get it done quickly and doesn't need to scale,

00:28:59   really, like, you're right, that would have been great,

00:29:01   and maybe sometime I will, you know,

00:29:04   rewrite that, 'cause it's pretty crappy, really,

00:29:06   I mean, so maybe sometime I'll rewrite that

00:29:09   in something else, but, you know,

00:29:11   for part of the reason why, as you said,

00:29:13   I don't have a day job, when I wrote Second Crack,

00:29:16   it was itself a procrastination from my actual apps.

00:29:21   Like, that's part of the problem when you work for yourself

00:29:23   is that anytime you're able to do work like that,

00:29:27   it's potentially taking away from your quote work,

00:29:31   like your official work that you're actually

00:29:32   getting paid for or trying to get done.

00:29:34   And I forget exactly which project I was procrastinating on

00:29:38   when I wrote Second Crack.

00:29:39   I'm pretty sure it was probably Instapaper,

00:29:42   but I'm not positive on the timing on that.

00:29:44   But either way, that was itself a procrastination.

00:29:47   And so I didn't wanna spend a lot of time on it.

00:29:49   So that's why I figured, let me just use PHP

00:29:52   because I can get it done very quickly with PHP.

00:29:55   I didn't want it to be a big time sink.

00:29:57   Yeah, that makes sense.

00:29:58   That being said, though, I still learn tons--

00:30:01   you know, as I said, I try to keep up as much as I can

00:30:03   with iOS APIs, especially low-level stuff.

00:30:06   Like, for instance, with Overcast,

00:30:10   I don't use AVPlayer or AVAudioPlayer.

00:30:15   And I'm not sure if I've said that publicly before.

00:30:17   I think I have, so this shouldn't be a big surprise.

00:30:19   But I'm playing audio files, and I'm not using AVPlayer.

00:30:24   And if you've ever worked on this stuff,

00:30:26   you should know therefore what that means I'm using raw core audio.

00:30:30   And that, like, this has been an amazing learning process.

00:30:34   And probably I didn't need to do that.

00:30:38   I have some reasons why I did it, but I probably didn't need to. Chances are

00:30:42   you could just do, you know, I could have used debut player and saved

00:30:46   myself a lot of time, but I wanted certain levels of control and I wanted to learn this

00:30:50   stuff. So I made extensive use of things like the accelerate framework

00:30:54   all the VDSP functions. So these functions that basically vectorize operations and use SIMD

00:31:01   instructions and stuff like that to really make these things awesomely fast if possible.

00:31:06   And I'm using that stuff all over the place in so many ways. And so I'm learning things like that.

00:31:10   I'm learning various different concurrency strategies and doing things like the crazy

00:31:17   ring buffer for the buffering of the samples that I'm reading from the files and everything.

00:31:22   That stuff I love.

00:31:23   That's all really interesting to me.

00:31:25   This is all, you know, that's where I've been learning

00:31:28   is in overcast client-side code.

00:31:31   And again, the web stuff I couldn't possibly care less about.

00:31:34   - So John, what about you?

00:31:35   Because your day job has been, as far as I know,

00:31:38   pretty much forever in Perl.

00:31:41   Do you ever have that itch?

00:31:43   What do you do to scratch it, if so?

00:31:46   - Well, with less time for like fun programming projects

00:31:50   for all the things that I've put on my own plate,

00:31:52   essentially, besides my job over the years,

00:31:54   whether it be writing for Ars Technica,

00:31:56   which I used to do much more of,

00:31:57   or podcasting more recently.

00:31:59   There's not as much time for fun programming projects.

00:32:01   I wrote my own little static blogging engine thing,

00:32:04   but that was kind of like Marco's,

00:32:06   and they were like,

00:32:07   yeah, it's supposed to be kind of a fun project,

00:32:08   but really it was a practical thing.

00:32:10   I just wanted to get it done quickly,

00:32:13   so I wrote it in Perl

00:32:14   'cause I knew we could get it done quickly,

00:32:16   and I intentionally stopped myself from making it good,

00:32:19   Because it was like, oh, because I, you know,

00:32:21   this is something I know how to do.

00:32:23   I could make this thing have bells and whistles

00:32:25   and be awesome and have this cool feature.

00:32:26   And I was like, no, make it as dumb as possible.

00:32:28   Get done with it.

00:32:29   Like, because I was, at that point I was trying

00:32:31   to not distract myself from writing,

00:32:32   which I'm not distracting myself from writing anymore

00:32:35   by making the engine, but I'm also not writing.

00:32:36   But anyway, back then it was like,

00:32:37   don't spend time writing the engine.

00:32:39   You do this all day, it's stupid.

00:32:42   Make the dumbest thing you can possibly do that works.

00:32:44   And I did, and it's super dumb,

00:32:46   and it didn't stop me from writing.

00:32:49   But the thing that I think has made me like try new things and stuff or whatever

00:32:53   is kind of the brutal nature of the tech job market starting in the mid to late

00:32:59   nineties in that I've had a lot of jobs.

00:33:01   And, uh, you know, like, how did I get to use, uh, MSQL, MySQL, SQLite, Oracle,

00:33:09   Informix, Postgres, like you're not going to get experience in all those databases,

00:33:14   probably in one place, even if you're there from the beginning, when it's like

00:33:17   three guys, maybe you'll touch on one or two of them.

00:33:20   But how will you ever take an in-depth survey

00:33:24   of all these different database products?

00:33:26   Well, you do it by having seven different jobs.

00:33:29   And the first place you work, there is no database,

00:33:31   so you get to pick something.

00:33:32   The second place maybe uses MySQL,

00:33:33   and the third place you decide to use Postgres

00:33:34   'cause you think that might be fine.

00:33:36   When you make commitments like that,

00:33:37   they tend to last for a long time.

00:33:40   Or if you're some big company

00:33:41   that are already using Oracle,

00:33:42   you're not gonna come in there and go,

00:33:43   "You know what, I'd really like to try out Postgres."

00:33:46   It's like, well, we're using Oracle, so get a different job.

00:33:51   And languages is the same way.

00:33:52   If you're a web developer, yes, every place I've worked has used Perl in some fashion,

00:33:56   but the proportion of my time spent writing Perl is very wildly.

00:34:00   For example, the company where I used Postgres extensively, a huge amount of the code was

00:34:04   in stored procedures in Postgres, and at various points, I was mostly a Postgres database designer/stored

00:34:12   procedure writer.

00:34:13   And in FormX, we also use a lot of stored procedures.

00:34:16   And if you're writing an application that is mostly,

00:34:18   essentially, a JavaScript application that just talks

00:34:21   to a faceless back end, the faceless back end

00:34:23   is pretty boring.

00:34:25   And the entire application lives on the client side.

00:34:28   And so at that point, you're writing a JavaScript

00:34:30   application.

00:34:31   It's not Node where it's server-side JavaScript,

00:34:33   but client-side JavaScript with all the frameworks.

00:34:34   Like, well, then what framework are you using?

00:34:36   How did I get to use all these different frameworks,

00:34:38   going from plain old DOM to like prototype, Dojo, jQuery,

00:34:42   Angular, Ember, Backbone, Underscore.

00:34:46   How do you get to use all those?

00:34:47   You're not going to get to use all of them at one place.

00:34:49   Because once you start building an application on top

00:34:51   of one of those, you're probably going

00:34:52   to keep building it that way.

00:34:53   And then you say, oh, well, jQuery is really popular now.

00:34:56   So we've really picked the wrong horse

00:34:58   when we decided to do everything with prototype.

00:35:00   Rails did that a little bit to some degree as well.

00:35:02   And it's like, well, how many thousands of lines

00:35:05   are in this application now?

00:35:06   Do you want to rewrite it with jQuery,

00:35:08   or do we just continue plowing bravely onward?

00:35:10   And so, yeah, changing jobs, usually not voluntarily,

00:35:13   but more like when the company starts to go down the tubes

00:35:17   or have layoffs or changes direction or whatever,

00:35:21   you get a new job, that's a new opportunity

00:35:22   to learn a lot of new things.

00:35:23   Even if the whole time, like, I'm just a web developer.

00:35:26   What does web developer mean?

00:35:27   Web developer means being multilingual,

00:35:30   learning, and even CSS.

00:35:31   Like, well, I've got no CSS, I've got no HTML,

00:35:33   I've got to keep all the specs,

00:35:34   but there's all the languages on top of CSS,

00:35:35   like LESS and SAS and stuff.

00:35:37   you will find yourself learning new languages all the time just to keep up with the constant

00:35:42   amazing churn in web technologies.

00:35:45   And you will build products on whatever the web technologies are at the time that your

00:35:50   company chooses or you choose or whatever, and then when you go to the next job there'll

00:35:53   be a different set of technologies.

00:35:54   Not that I enjoy moving jobs, I don't.

00:35:55   I wish I could stay in one job for, you know, I don't like switching jobs, I find it stressful,

00:36:00   but the plain fact is that I have switched jobs many times and I think that has forced

00:36:03   me more than anything to learn new technologies.

00:36:06   That makes sense.

00:36:07   I'm a little surprised that neither of you seems to dedicate the time outside of work

00:36:15   to do this, but let's also not lose sight of the fact that you have children and I do

00:36:18   not. So that probably relates more than just a little bit.

00:36:22   I mean, I read a lot about it. I've never written a significant program in Objective-C,

00:36:28   but I feel like I know the language. And I've never written anything with any of these frameworks,

00:36:32   but I know a lot about them. And it's like, yes, it's kind of like a dilettante. It's

00:36:36   of like, "Well, I just read a lot of books about it." It's true. I read a lot of articles,

00:36:39   read a lot of books, read a lot of Ruby Python code, read a lot of Node.js code, read headers

00:36:44   from Cocoa to see what it's like. I'm not coding in those, but I feel like by surveying

00:36:49   them, I don't know if it's the same thing as like, it's certainly not the same thing

00:36:53   as doing a real project in it, but you kind of get a sense for what's out there, and so

00:36:56   it's not entirely alien to it. Like, why am I reading these big long Rust tutorials? Why

00:37:00   did I read all the documentation about Go? Because I have a project in mind because I'm

00:37:04   going to use them? Probably not, but I have an academic interest in that type of thing,

00:37:07   and I think reading through it gives you an idea of what it might be like to program in that.

00:37:11   [laughs]

00:37:11   Fair enough.

00:37:13   Actually, I did look at Go recently, because everyone kept telling me I should. It does look

00:37:18   really interesting, and I think if I were to go through the trouble of learning a whole new

00:37:22   web language, that might be the one I would go to, because it seems like it's made with my

00:37:26   sensibilities pretty well aligned. So, anyway. This would be a great opportunity to talk about

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00:38:20   For my podcast editing, I went through some of their videos on Logic and audio engineering,

00:38:25   and it's great. I mean, you've got to see this. You know, in case you were telling us

00:38:28   as last time, you gotta see how they have the video

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00:38:52   They don't need Flash or any stupid stuff like that.

00:38:55   Now, relative to our recent discussions,

00:38:58   They have courses in web development.

00:39:01   For instance, that you can learn Node.js,

00:39:04   you can learn AngularJS or CoffeeScript,

00:39:07   or as many people would tell me to learn,

00:39:09   NoSQL databases.

00:39:11   They have all these things.

00:39:13   There's a whole course they recently added

00:39:16   called Programming for iOS 7 for Non-Programmers.

00:39:20   So you can learn how to make an app.

00:39:22   If you're not a programmer,

00:39:23   there actually are about two or three of you out there

00:39:25   who listen to this show who can tolerate us

00:39:26   and yet who aren't programmers.

00:39:28   You three people can finally learn how to program

00:39:31   if you want to.

00:39:32   Programming for non-programmers for iOS 7,

00:39:35   this great course on lynda.com.

00:39:37   You can even, they recently,

00:39:39   so recently Adobe launched Lightroom for mobile,

00:39:42   Lightroom for iPad basically.

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00:40:17   That is L-Y-N-D-A dot com slash ATP.

00:40:20   Thanks a lot to Lynda for sponsoring our show once again.

00:40:23   Apple did something a little un-Apple-like today, and they've announced an OS X beta

00:40:29   program for regular people, for non-developers.

00:40:35   This is surprising to me.

00:40:38   What did you guys think?

00:40:39   I wasn't so old I could remember definitively what the details of the old Apple Free developer

00:40:47   program were, because Apple's developer program has had changed over the years.

00:40:53   Right now it's like $99 for the iOS dev program, $99 for the OS X dev program.

00:40:59   And those prices were a step down from the old program, which was like, you could be

00:41:04   a select developer for like $500 a year, you could be a premier developer for like $1200,

00:41:09   and there was no iOS, or maybe there was at the tail end of that, but anyway, there weren't

00:41:14   separate programs for iOS and OS X.

00:41:17   But there was also a free tier where you could be a developer at the free tier, and the things

00:41:21   I can't remember at the free tier whether you got early seeds of the early OS 10 betas

00:41:27   or not.

00:41:28   Yeah, so someone can write in and tell me the exact details of what the free programs

00:41:31   were like.

00:41:32   But anyway, this is kind of a return to the free thing.

00:41:34   It's like, hey, you can be a registered developer, kind of, sort of, not really, at Apple.

00:41:39   But it's not part of the, like, if you're just interested in getting the pre-release

00:41:41   software, sign up for free.

00:41:43   You don't have to pay $99, because I'm assuming you're not going to write your own applications.

00:41:47   You just want to get the early versions of the OS, which a lot of people did back in

00:41:50   the day.

00:41:51   You've got to be part of the dev program

00:41:52   if you want early releases, even if you're not going to make

00:41:56   your own application.

00:41:56   Which is essentially why I'm always

00:41:58   a member of the Mac developer program.

00:42:00   I'm not writing Mac applications,

00:42:01   but I've been a member of the Mac developer program,

00:42:05   a paying member for just years and years now.

00:42:07   Because that's how you get the early releases.

00:42:09   And this is an example of the ability

00:42:11   to get the early release, and I assume nothing else except for

00:42:14   just the early releases, like no developer technical support

00:42:18   incidents, no ability to sign apps and upload them to the App

00:42:21   Store and all that other stuff.

00:42:23   But anyway, for regular people.

00:42:26   So you do need an Apple ID.

00:42:27   You do need to agree to a confidentiality thing, where

00:42:30   you're not going to talk about the features that you see

00:42:32   and so on and so forth.

00:42:33   You do agree to let Apple collect diagnostics

00:42:36   from your computer and all the other normal stuff

00:42:38   that you might imagine agreeing to if you've decided

00:42:40   to run beta software to help out Apple.

00:42:45   And in return, you get to see an early peak at things.

00:42:48   So are you surprised by this?

00:42:51   Not really.

00:42:52   Because first of all, these people are not going to--

00:42:56   I assume they're not going to get the same seeds

00:42:58   that developers get.

00:43:00   Probably Apple's going to take their time and release maybe--

00:43:02   developers maybe get five or six seeds.

00:43:04   And of those, Apple will pick, here's

00:43:06   one seed that everybody gets.

00:43:07   And then there'll be a bunch of dev seeds.

00:43:09   And then one seed that everybody gets.

00:43:10   Then a bunch of dev seeds.

00:43:11   But nobody's getting anything until someone

00:43:13   goes on stage at WWDC and shows the new features and stuff.

00:43:16   It's not as if you will be seeing some secret thing

00:43:19   before everyone else.

00:43:20   Everyone's going to see it on stage at WWDC.

00:43:22   There's going to be a build at WWDC.

00:43:24   And at that point, it's like, well, who cares?

00:43:28   If you get the WWDC build, you get

00:43:30   the build a couple weeks after that,

00:43:31   like the cat's out of the bag.

00:43:32   So don't think that by signing up for this, wow,

00:43:34   I don't have to pay any money, and I

00:43:35   get to know all of Apple's secrets.

00:43:36   You're not going to know any secrets.

00:43:39   Continue to go to the rumor sites

00:43:40   if you want to see fuzzy screenshots of supposed

00:43:43   release things.

00:43:44   This is merely a way to let you, you know, it's basically, Apple is doing this because

00:43:49   I think they want wider testability of their OS and they're trying it out on the Mac because

00:43:53   that probably seems like a safer bet.

00:43:55   They just want more people to try stuff out so they're not surprised when they release

00:43:59   something to the public because there's a very small number of developers and they have

00:44:04   a, probably a less diverse set of hardware than the market at large.

00:44:08   And so Apple would prefer, I think, to get wider testing of its OS.

00:44:12   And not right away, in just certain builds, and you know, like, we think, you know, maybe

00:44:18   two or three releases leading up to it, these are the ones that we want to test widely to

00:44:21   check for, you know, driver compatibility issues or hardware issues or whatever.

00:44:26   That's why Apple's doing this, because Apple thinks it will benefit to them and make their

00:44:28   software more robust.

00:44:30   It's not them doing you a favor to let you see pre-release software.

00:44:33   is entirely, hey, we really need a wider testing base.

00:44:38   At a certain point in the development of our OS,

00:44:40   it comes to the point where we say,

00:44:42   we know all we can know with our small set of internal testing

00:44:46   in QA and our small set of developers who are using this.

00:44:49   If anyone wants to sign up for a wider beta,

00:44:52   we would love to know if something's

00:44:54   crashing on some obscure configuration

00:44:56   that we don't have here, and then we can collect the data

00:44:58   and figure it out.

00:44:59   And maybe they'll consider doing that with iOS eventually

00:45:02   as well.

00:45:02   but I think the Mac is like a safe place

00:45:04   to try out this type of program.

00:45:06   - Yeah, I tend to agree.

00:45:08   I thought that there were a couple of interesting things

00:45:13   that came from this.

00:45:14   Firstly, something that occurred to me was,

00:45:17   it's giving, or it's Apple participating

00:45:20   in a little bit more outreach

00:45:22   and a little bit more community involvement.

00:45:24   I know, especially after Microsoft Build,

00:45:27   there's been a lot of comparison

00:45:29   between Microsoft's approach to developers

00:45:32   and Apple's approach to developers.

00:45:33   Now granted, this isn't a developer specific program,

00:45:37   and that's kind of what I'm driving at,

00:45:39   is that you would think if Apple was going to reach out

00:45:42   into the public at all, in any capacity,

00:45:45   that perhaps it would be to be a little more friendly

00:45:48   to developers.

00:45:49   I agree with what you said, John,

00:45:50   that this is really about Apple doing what's good for Apple,

00:45:53   as Apple always does,

00:45:55   but it just seems kind of unfortunate

00:45:57   that they're reaching out to the wrong group.

00:45:59   And the other thing I was thinking about was, what if they've learned from iOS 7?

00:46:07   And iOS 7, even though a lot of the nerds knew it was going to look really different

00:46:11   and really flat, and that's really how you would describe it, but you know what I mean.

00:46:16   But it has depth.

00:46:17   Right, it has depth, of course.

00:46:19   And clarity.

00:46:21   And chamfered edges.

00:46:22   Oh, wait.

00:46:23   But anyway, what if Craig Hockenberry is right?

00:46:27   He wrote a really great post.

00:46:28   I think it was a post.

00:46:29   it was a series of tweets, but either way, he wrote something recently saying, "Hey,

00:46:33   there's a lot of indication that OS X is going to look pretty different in the next version."

00:46:39   And his point was, "Developers, you should really start testing with some of the fonts

00:46:43   we expect them to use," and so on and so forth.

00:46:45   Well, what if this is queuing up, or setting up for, is a better way of phrasing it, a

00:46:51   little bit more outreach to the public at large?

00:46:54   So at WWDC, we see the new OS X.

00:46:57   It looks really, really different.

00:47:00   And rather than nobody getting to see it

00:47:02   and nobody getting to play with it except developers

00:47:05   or those willing to pay the $100,

00:47:07   maybe they're trying to reach out

00:47:09   to some of the super Apple nerds

00:47:11   or maybe even like self-appointed evangelists, if you will,

00:47:14   and say, "Hey, you try it out

00:47:17   "and you spread the word that this isn't so bad."

00:47:19   I'm standing on a whole bunch of theory here,

00:47:22   but I don't know, it makes sense to me.

00:47:24   Well, it's not so much that they want them to be evangelists for them.

00:47:27   I think it's more like, to use an example from OS X instead of the iOS 7 thing, it's

00:47:31   kind of like their attempts to handle autosave and getting rid of the save command.

00:47:35   By sending out what's probably going to be a fairly significant UI overall of the OS

00:47:40   to a wider group of people, they hope to find out earlier rather than later that, oh, everybody

00:47:45   hates the new autosave and people want save as to be back and they want it to have a command

00:47:48   key.

00:47:49   thing you could have found out in a wider early beta, and that they only found out after

00:47:56   the release and had to patch up in Mountain Lion. You know what I mean? Again, it's serving

00:48:01   Apple. It's not just, "Hey, let's see if your thing crashes," or whatever, but also if people

00:48:06   flip out. Because when all those people who are looking at rumors or screenshots see something

00:48:11   like that, they may have trepidation about it, but Apple has no way to get feedback from

00:48:15   them. And really, a lot of them will think, "Well, I've got to try it and see what it's

00:48:18   like when I use it. But if all those people who are so enthusiastic that are reading a

00:48:21   rumor site had the actual pre-release of the OS and got to try it and said, "Oh, I can't

00:48:26   tell what's what." Like, for example, these buttons without borders, I can't tell whether

00:48:30   they're buttons, they just look like text or, you know, that's the iOS equivalent. But

00:48:34   if there's some big UI change that they're not so sure about, if they put it out to a

00:48:39   wider audience, they will get, A, they'll get informed feedback instead of like, "I

00:48:42   saw a screenshot that looks like it's going to be terrible." And B, presumably through

00:48:46   the mechanisms that they're going to distribute, there will be official channels to send that

00:48:49   feedback, not just complaining on Twitter or posting in web forums or whatever, but

00:48:54   actual feedback directly to Apple where people can write 20-paragraph missives about why they

00:48:59   don't like the new look and how they can't tell which window is in the front anymore

00:49:01   or whatever they're going to say. You know what I mean?

00:49:04   Yeah, that makes sense. I don't know. Marco, any thoughts on this?

00:49:09   I'm less excited about it than most people. I mean, first of all, it's mostly because

00:49:12   because I have zero interest in running a beta version

00:49:16   of OS X on my Mac, zero.

00:49:18   Like the only time I ever installed a beta

00:49:22   was when reading list was first added to it.

00:49:26   And I was tipped off that this was a thing in the betas

00:49:28   and I should see it 'cause at the time

00:49:29   I still owned Instapaper.

00:49:31   And so I signed up with the developer program,

00:49:34   paid the 100 bucks to see this reading list thing

00:49:37   and see how worried I had to be basically.

00:49:42   Even then, I installed it on a laptop that I didn't care that much about because it's

00:49:46   so important to me that my computer work perfectly, as much as possible.

00:49:51   And whenever my computer does not work perfectly, as much as possible, it's very disruptive

00:49:57   and it's potentially very costly to me.

00:49:59   And so I always want to make sure that I'm okay in that regard.

00:50:06   And so it's just not worth me running the betas, for the most part, ever.

00:50:11   I do it on iPhone because the iPhone is not that important to me.

00:50:13   If the iPhone, you know, if my iPhone reboots twice a day, that's annoying, but, you know,

00:50:21   oh well.

00:50:22   And it's more important for me in iOS because my software runs on iOS.

00:50:25   It's more important for me to get into that as early as possible and to have my software

00:50:29   running on my main phone.

00:50:31   When something like iOS 7 comes out that changes a whole bunch about the entire paradigm of

00:50:35   the UI, the entire style, it's good to start getting that ingrained in me earlier so I

00:50:40   so I can develop for it well, things like that.

00:50:43   But because it doesn't apply to me on the OS X side,

00:50:48   I just don't care at all.

00:50:49   Now, maybe the problem was not enough people

00:50:53   were testing things on the OS X side

00:50:55   to make the testing really worthwhile to Apple

00:50:58   or to accomplish their goals.

00:51:00   'Cause you know, do you see them doing this for iOS?

00:51:03   I sure as hell don't.

00:51:04   Because the iOS beta is like,

00:51:06   everyone who wants the iOS beta gets it.

00:51:08   You know, they find some developer

00:51:10   to get them to add it to their account,

00:51:11   and to add their device to their account,

00:51:13   and they get the beta.

00:51:14   Or everyone pulls together money

00:51:16   and buys a slot on someone's,

00:51:18   there's all these weird things people do

00:51:20   to get iOS betas these days.

00:51:22   And the reason they don't really need to do it there,

00:51:26   and they probably won't do it there,

00:51:28   is because there's all this demand to run iOS betas.

00:51:31   All that demand probably isn't really there

00:51:32   for the OS X betas.

00:51:34   And part of that's because Macs

00:51:36   aren't as interesting as iPhones.

00:51:38   There are a lot fewer people who have them.

00:51:40   And part of that's just because OS X

00:51:41   doesn't change that much.

00:51:43   Maybe this next beta will be so different,

00:51:46   you know, maybe 10.10 will be so different

00:51:49   that everyone will want it, who knows.

00:51:51   But I'm guessing they weren't getting enough people testing.

00:51:54   And that's why you had things like

00:51:56   the crazy Gmail problems in Mavericks

00:51:58   that like, why wasn't that caught in a beta?

00:52:00   You know, stuff like that.

00:52:01   Because I'm guessing most people who are on the OS X betas

00:52:05   probably have the same priorities I do

00:52:09   in that they probably don't wanna run them

00:52:10   on their main work machines.

00:52:12   So they probably are like developers who make Mac apps

00:52:16   who wanna make sure their Mac apps work.

00:52:18   So they probably run them in a VM or on some other hardware

00:52:21   that that's not their primary stuff.

00:52:23   And then they just test their app.

00:52:25   So if that's what most of the testers are doing,

00:52:27   it's in Apple's best interest

00:52:28   to try to broaden that tester base.

00:52:31   But again, I don't see this as that big of a deal.

00:52:33   I don't see how many people who are not developers

00:52:36   and/or who were unwilling to pay

00:52:38   for the developer account before,

00:52:39   I don't see how many people are gonna really get

00:52:42   who are gonna be dying to install

00:52:44   what's probably going to be a boring beta

00:52:47   of a boring OS on boring products

00:52:49   because they're all pretty mature at this point.

00:52:50   - Yeah, speaking of the Gmail thing,

00:52:52   that's one aspect of,

00:52:55   even if you do install the betas,

00:52:56   like I have to do, of course, for writing my review,

00:52:59   if that's something that you do,

00:53:02   whether you're a developer, whether you're writing a review,

00:53:04   or whatever you're doing with the betas,

00:53:06   if you're one of the people who has an account

00:53:09   like for a reason now because you're part of the press

00:53:12   or because you're a developer,

00:53:13   you almost never use it against your real data.

00:53:16   So you're not gonna use your real email account

00:53:19   or your real contacts, and with good reason,

00:53:21   because if you had done that,

00:53:22   you would learn eventually that some early beta version

00:53:24   of an OS scrambled all your contacts and now you're sad.

00:53:27   You always have usually multiple test accounts,

00:53:29   multiple test iCloud accounts,

00:53:31   multiple game center accounts, multiple everything.

00:53:33   Like, you know, dummy email accounts, dummy contacts,

00:53:37   like you don't put it on your real data.

00:53:39   And so are you gonna notice that the Gmail bug,

00:53:42   if all you're doing is just like,

00:53:44   you're not actually sending and receiving email,

00:53:46   you're not actually keeping track

00:53:47   of what you're marking red and what you haven't.

00:53:48   And so you wouldn't notice these bugs

00:53:50   because you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, mail.

00:53:52   Like why would you even go to the mail app

00:53:53   unless you just wanted to see

00:53:54   what the new features are, whatever.

00:53:55   If you don't use it for your real email every day,

00:53:57   like, huh, didn't I mark that messages on Reddit?

00:53:59   It's just a bunch of test messages.

00:54:00   Maybe you wouldn't notice at all.

00:54:02   And I think this actually will go to a different pool

00:54:05   of people, pool of enthusiasts who want to use it

00:54:07   and who are going to use it with their real data.

00:54:09   And I would say at this point,

00:54:11   if you find this program exciting

00:54:12   and you wanna use these betas,

00:54:14   keep in mind that like Marco said,

00:54:15   he doesn't use it on his main machine.

00:54:17   I never installed beta versions of OS X on my machine ever.

00:54:21   Like I have complete separation because I,

00:54:24   and even when it's like, oh, this is the golden master,

00:54:26   like, oh, have you installed the ultimate?

00:54:28   No, I wait until I can get it from these days from the Mac App Store.

00:54:32   And didn't they have a thing this most recent release where like the build number changed

00:54:36   at the last minute or whatever?

00:54:37   I never ever ever install anything from ADC on my real computer.

00:54:41   I always get it, I used to, you know, I would always get it from the actual CD that would

00:54:44   come in the mail, you know, like a retail CD or DVD, or these days the actual one from

00:54:50   the Mac App Store.

00:54:51   I won't even usually install the .0 release.

00:54:53   Yeah, well, occasionally I'll be worried about that,

00:54:57   but in the past few releases they've been pretty good.

00:54:59   So if you're thinking of doing this,

00:55:01   Apple has all these crazy warnings and everything

00:55:02   and have it backed up or whatever.

00:55:04   By all means, if you're an enthusiast

00:55:06   and you know what you're getting into,

00:55:07   but realize it could erase your entire hard drive.

00:55:10   It could scramble all your contacts in iCloud.

00:55:11   You're like, "Oh, don't worry, I got backups."

00:55:12   What if it scrambles all your contacts in iCloud?

00:55:14   Where are those backups?

00:55:15   How are you gonna restore that?

00:55:16   iCloud is very opaque

00:55:17   and it's difficult to wrangle it back into shape.

00:55:19   So be aware of what you're getting into.

00:55:21   I imagine that since this is free,

00:55:23   A lot of people are going to be like, oh, awesome, I'm going to try the beta.

00:55:25   And then it will hose them in some way.

00:55:26   They'll be like, wah.

00:55:27   The beta hose.

00:55:28   It's like, that's, it's, you know, that's, you knew what you were getting into,

00:55:32   but you don't know, like your enthusiasm kind of outrun.

00:55:34   And that's part of the experience.

00:55:35   I did the same thing back in the day with like, you know, Mecha was a betas and

00:55:39   stuff where they were just terrible and data destroying.

00:55:42   And it's, that's, I guess it's okay.

00:55:46   I'm trying not to generalize and say it's going to be like a bunch of enthusiastic

00:55:49   teenagers destroying their parents' Macs with beta versions of it.

00:55:52   but like I was that teenager, you know, why not? Why shouldn't it be? Like, I think that's

00:55:57   kind of a rite of passage. But, so, basically what I'm saying is I would recommend nobody

00:56:01   join this program, but I think that people will. And I think that the people who do join

00:56:06   the program will be providing a different kind of testing than the existing people who

00:56:10   pay $99 a year.

00:56:13   We are also sponsored this week. I feel good about the sponsor reads this week because

00:56:16   they printed on card stock. See?

00:56:17   Oh, thanks, Merlin.

00:56:19   because of a printer loading error.

00:56:22   So I have nice thick sponsor reads this week.

00:56:25   - PC load letter.

00:56:26   - Exactly, what does that mean?

00:56:27   - Office space.

00:56:29   - Hey, all right.

00:56:30   - Is that both of us?

00:56:32   - Yeah.

00:56:32   - All right.

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00:58:36   Thanks a lot to New Relic for sponsoring our show once again.

00:58:41   We learned today about some new Thunderbolt information,

00:58:45   about third generation Thunderbolt.

00:58:46   And I'm not really that excited about it,

00:58:50   mostly because I don't plan on getting a new computer anytime

00:58:53   soon.

00:58:53   But Marco, do you want to tell us about this?

00:58:57   Well, there's not a whole lot known yet.

00:59:00   So there's not really much to discuss.

00:59:02   I might as well just save it for three years from now

00:59:05   when these ports actually come out.

00:59:06   But basically, Intel,

00:59:09   there was some leaked Intel roadmap document

00:59:12   that showed details on the next Thunderbolt version,

00:59:15   Thunderbolt 3, it'll probably be called.

00:59:17   And basically, we'll put the link in the show notes

00:59:20   on MacRumors, basically doubling the bandwidth,

00:59:23   so up to 40 gigabits per second.

00:59:25   And they're gonna actually change the connector,

00:59:29   which is probably gonna be interesting in the community.

00:59:31   They're gonna make a smaller connector

00:59:34   that also apparently will be able to charge

00:59:36   up to 100 watts.

00:59:38   - Yeah, that's ridiculous.

00:59:40   - Underscore Kyle Cronin in the chat room

00:59:42   just asked a really good question.

00:59:43   Which direction does the power go here?

00:59:46   Does the peripheral power the computer or vice versa?

00:59:49   - I thought you asked that on Twitter already.

00:59:50   You were saying you could almost power a display.

00:59:52   Didn't you tweet that today?

00:59:53   - Yeah, that's interesting though that,

00:59:55   yeah, I didn't think about it that direction.

00:59:57   All this says is, enables system charging up to 100 watts.

01:00:02   Yeah, that actually--

01:00:02   ADC did it already.

01:00:03   Speaking of ADC, the other ADC, Apple Display Connector,

01:00:06   powered the 22-inch Apple Center of Display.

01:00:09   There was one cabling in it.

01:00:10   No, this is the other way.

01:00:12   This is the other way, though.

01:00:13   This is saying that a Thunderbolt display could

01:00:17   charge your laptop.

01:00:18   Right, without the little dangly MagSafe thing

01:00:20   like we have now.

01:00:21   Somebody pointed out on Twitter also

01:00:23   that this is the proposed,

01:00:25   the code name Alpine Ridge Controller from Intel.

01:00:28   And this is apparently like still three generations away

01:00:30   or something, it's pretty far off.

01:00:32   So we're probably not seeing it soon.

01:00:34   It's probably a year or two at least.

01:00:37   - I think it might be sooner than we think

01:00:39   because like it's maybe not across the line,

01:00:43   but soon enough that I think the change in connector

01:00:46   is a little bit upsetting 'cause it's like,

01:00:48   I know we didn't want Apple to wait any longer

01:00:50   to do what it's,

01:00:52   really want it to be longer for the Mac Pro. But even if it's like a one and a half to

01:00:57   three year gap, like you're going to change a Thunderbolt connector already? We just got

01:01:00   Thunderbolt ports on our Mac Pro. And then you're going to change them? And the difference

01:01:04   is 1.5 millimeters in height.

01:01:08   And I mentioned on Twitter that I had been staring at the edges of various Retina MacBook

01:01:12   Pros and meetings at work, because that's what you do in boring meetings, thinking about

01:01:17   which one of those connectors is going to get thinner next. Because if you look at the

01:01:20   the sides, what we have is kind of a menagerie of MacBook and MacBook Pros around the office,

01:01:26   depending on who got their hardware when. So you can see them slowly getting skinnier

01:01:29   and you can see like, oh, the ethernet port disappears, oh, the MagSafe gets squished,

01:01:33   oh, now it looks like the USB is practically edge to edge, and you can see them squeezing

01:01:36   and squeezing. And really, there's headroom there, but the way Apple designs their laptops,

01:01:41   there is a curved section that sort of gives you a place for you to hook your fingers underneath,

01:01:45   and then there's a flat section that's perpendicular to the table, and that's where the ports go.

01:01:50   And they squeeze that thing down.

01:01:52   MagSafe, USB, and Thunderbolt are squeezed pretty tightly in the flat section now.

01:01:57   If you want to make the laptop thinner, you could start giving up the little lip that

01:02:01   you tuck your fingers under, but you don't want to make something that's as thin as just

01:02:04   a flat section and flat on a table.

01:02:05   You wouldn't be able to pick it up.

01:02:06   You'd be trying to get your fingernails underneath it to try to pull it up off the table.

01:02:10   So things have to get thinner.

01:02:12   And Thunderbolt is probably, USB is probably the first one, but we already know, we talked

01:02:16   about it in the past show, the new USB 3 connector that it'll be skinnier.

01:02:19   so that takes care of the USB ports.

01:02:22   That leaves Thunderbolt as potentially the thickest thing

01:02:24   besides MagSafe, and MagSafe I think is due

01:02:26   to be revised as well because MagSafe 2,

01:02:29   everyone seems to hate, but due to the design,

01:02:32   it's like, well, it's a big magnetic surface,

01:02:34   and people hate MagSafe 2 because it's not as secure

01:02:36   as the old one because they made it skinnier.

01:02:39   If you make it skinnier still, won't it be even worse,

01:02:41   and maybe it's time for a new magnetic power connector

01:02:44   that, I mean, I don't think they want it to insert,

01:02:46   but the whole point, it's supposed to come off easily,

01:02:48   but I think they could use a designer revision as well.

01:02:51   But Thunderbolt, it seems kind of early for them

01:02:53   to be making the thing thinner,

01:02:55   and I'm a little bit worried about that.

01:02:56   I hope this bus comes sooner rather than later.

01:02:59   I hope actually 2015 that we would see this,

01:03:01   sometime in calendar year 2015,

01:03:03   if only for the retina angle,

01:03:06   because now we finally, in theory,

01:03:08   would have bandwidth to do my desired

01:03:11   quad 27-inch retina resolution display.

01:03:15   It'd still depend on the new display port specs

01:03:17   and everything else,

01:03:18   This lists a bunch of acronyms that could, in theory, provide this.

01:03:20   Like, I don't know what HDMI 2 encompasses.

01:03:22   I don't even know what TBT is.

01:03:25   So maybe one of those things could power a monitor at the resolution that I want.

01:03:31   But changing the connectors.

01:03:33   They mentioned there'd be an adapter.

01:03:34   An adapter?

01:03:35   You're going to get—it's like two years after Thunderbolt appears, and now we're

01:03:38   already at those adapters.

01:03:39   I guess I guess it's MagSafe 1 and 2 all over again.

01:03:41   Well, and to be fair, I mean, how many people really have Thunderbolt devices so far?

01:03:47   It's not going to be a massive problem to have all these people buy little $30 adapters

01:03:52   or probably even less than that.

01:03:56   The whole problem with Thunderbolt is that no one's using it.

01:03:58   Yeah, the stagnation of the market is an advantage because it's like, "Well, if I had anything

01:04:02   to plug in, I wouldn't need an adapter, but since I have nothing to plug in anyway..."

01:04:05   I guess even Apple's monitors, even for the people that are doing what I do with the MacBook

01:04:09   Air and the Thunderbolt display.

01:04:11   I bet a lot of people do that setup where you have Thunderbolt plugged into your laptop

01:04:16   So you don't have, it's the equivalent,

01:04:18   so we don't have to have a dock, you know,

01:04:19   the stupid docks, they have a PC laptop,

01:04:21   so you snap the thing in and 800 connectors connect.

01:04:23   We can do it all through Thunderbolt, right?

01:04:25   Well, now you're gonna need, like,

01:04:27   the poor Thunderbolt display.

01:04:28   First it came with the MagSafe one to two adapter,

01:04:30   like you used to get that with a display,

01:04:32   so you could, you know,

01:04:33   attach the charging thingy to the laptops,

01:04:35   and now it will also come with a Thunderbolt

01:04:37   one to two adapter.

01:04:39   (laughing)

01:04:40   - For what it's worth though,

01:04:41   ever since the Thunderbolt display came out,

01:04:43   I have lusted after it,

01:04:44   and I'm way too cheap to buy one,

01:04:46   but the thought of not having to have,

01:04:49   I don't know, four or five or six cables to plug in

01:04:52   every time I plug in my computer when I get home

01:04:54   and only have two just sounds awesome.

01:04:57   And to bring this down to just one,

01:04:59   if we're reading this right and the power would flow

01:05:03   from display into laptop, I mean, that sounds great.

01:05:06   It genuinely, genuinely does.

01:05:07   - The problem is that one connector's

01:05:09   probably gonna be crappy, 'cause I can tell you,

01:05:11   we don't disconnect our laptop a lot,

01:05:13   but I've done it enough that every time I do it,

01:05:15   it does not feel like a robust,

01:05:17   oh, you can connect and disconnect this 8,000 times

01:05:19   and it'll be fine every time I do it.

01:05:20   I'm so conscious of the potential number of connects

01:05:24   and disconnects this cable has in it

01:05:25   because there's a little chip in that thing

01:05:26   and it's like a long stiff thing

01:05:28   sticking out of the side of your laptop.

01:05:30   It's not as, you feel like I can plug and unplug

01:05:33   the lightning port in my iPhone forever

01:05:35   and I feel fine about it until maybe the cable will fray

01:05:37   but whatever, I'll get a new one.

01:05:39   The Thunderbolt thing going into the side

01:05:40   especially MacBook Air, feels pretty perilous,

01:05:44   and I have little faith that the 1.5 millimeter

01:05:46   thinner version will feel any less perilous,

01:05:48   unless they invert it and do like a lightning-style

01:05:50   connector, but I'm not holding my breath.

01:05:52   - Well, I've read somewhere, maybe this is just

01:05:54   somebody's reaction to this, but I did read somewhere

01:05:56   that maybe one of the reasons they were redesigning

01:05:58   the connector is that the new one really isn't that great,

01:06:01   that it does fall out easily,

01:06:03   or it becomes slightly pulled easily,

01:06:04   and there's really, like there's no part of its design

01:06:08   that's really high friction, or no little locking

01:06:10   ball bearings like the Lightning has or anything like that.

01:06:12   So it's, I've never felt that Thunderbolt

01:06:16   things were secure.

01:06:17   I mean, I mostly just use it like for ethernet.

01:06:19   - Yeah, that feels precarious, right?

01:06:21   - But yeah, exactly, exactly.

01:06:23   - All right, this is a little bit random,

01:06:26   but I keep meaning to ask you when we were asked on Twitter,

01:06:30   what's the Overcast update?

01:06:31   - I'm almost in beta.

01:06:35   That's basically it,

01:06:36   which is probably what I said last time,

01:06:37   but I'm way closer this time.

01:06:39   Today I was writing the directory to give you some idea,

01:06:42   making the ad podcast thing work more than just search.

01:06:46   That's what I'm doing right now.

01:06:49   It's getting close, the login thing is done,

01:06:52   all the account stuff is done.

01:06:54   Yeah, getting there, that's about it.

01:06:58   It isn't that interesting right now.

01:06:59   - That's fair, I just don't think we talked about it

01:07:02   in a while, that's quick and easy.

01:07:05   Are iPad sales leveling off?

01:07:08   There's been a little bit of chatter about this lately.

01:07:10   - Yeah, this I wanted to talk about.

01:07:12   So there was this post by, oh boy.

01:07:17   - Go ahead, John, save Marco.

01:07:20   - Please.

01:07:21   - Jean-Louis Gasset.

01:07:22   - Thank you so much.

01:07:23   All right, so he wrote this post,

01:07:27   which we'll link to in the show notes,

01:07:29   basically saying or suggesting that iPad sales

01:07:32   have or are about to be revealed to have leveled off.

01:07:36   And then Gruber linked to it

01:07:37   and added his own commentary as well.

01:07:40   And so the theory here is that maybe iPad

01:07:43   and overall tablet sales are not doing as,

01:07:46   they're not growing as well as everyone expected.

01:07:49   And maybe tablets have been overestimated

01:07:54   and maybe the expectations of tablets have been too high.

01:07:58   So I wanted to talk about this

01:08:00   because I personally have really had trouble

01:08:05   making my iPad useful to me.

01:08:07   And I've heard so many people who that's not the case for.

01:08:11   So many people are finding incredibly interesting,

01:08:14   creative ways to use their iPad to get all their work done

01:08:16   or just bring their iPad when they go on trips

01:08:18   and not bring a laptop or whatever else.

01:08:20   And I have not had that experience at all.

01:08:24   I mean, and part of that's just 'cause the work I do,

01:08:26   you know, being a lot of programming and stuff like that.

01:08:28   But even things that aren't programming,

01:08:30   I find myself, when I'm on the iPad,

01:08:33   I find myself like saving things

01:08:35   for when I go back to my Mac because it'll just be so much faster and easier to do it

01:08:38   there.

01:08:39   You know, for me, the limitations of iOS work on a phone. The limitations of how apps are

01:08:46   so incredibly isolated from each other and so multitasking is very limited. There is

01:08:52   no like, you know, the document model of iOS where you don't have your files, you just

01:08:58   have each app and it has its own little silo of data. You know, all that stuff makes it

01:09:03   very hard for me to work the way I want to work.

01:09:07   And so I have not found the iPad to be very useful,

01:09:09   and in fact I hardly ever use mine.

01:09:11   I have stopped buying every version of it,

01:09:14   even for developer testing purposes.

01:09:17   Now that I have the Retina Mini,

01:09:19   and my wife has the iPad Air,

01:09:21   I really can't see us buying the next ones

01:09:23   that come out either,

01:09:24   'cause these are gonna be fine for a while.

01:09:26   - Yeah, I'll remind you of that.

01:09:27   - Sounds like you need an iPad Pro, Margot.

01:09:30   (laughing)

01:09:31   And so I wonder, how many people is this the case for?

01:09:35   So for me, what I've found,

01:09:37   and this is why I think the iPhone lineup

01:09:40   might make this more interesting,

01:09:42   I've found that there's things that a phone does well,

01:09:47   and the iPad does most of those things well,

01:09:49   but the things that the phone does poorly,

01:09:52   the iPad doesn't do a lot of them much better.

01:09:56   And the iPad is worse than the phone in a few major ways.

01:09:59   Number one, it is not always with you.

01:10:01   Your phone is always in your pocket.

01:10:03   Your iPad, you might not have it with you.

01:10:05   In my case, I almost never have it with me.

01:10:08   'Cause it doesn't fit in clothing or jacket pockets

01:10:11   and I don't carry bags big enough for it

01:10:12   most of those places I go.

01:10:13   So, you know, the phone is always with you

01:10:17   and your phone always has a data connection for most people.

01:10:20   iPads, yes, you can get them with data connections

01:10:22   but it's not the common case, I don't think.

01:10:26   And even if you have data connection,

01:10:27   like I feel kind of bad paying 20 bucks a month

01:10:31   for this data connection that I hardly ever use,

01:10:33   but my iPad becomes even less useful if I don't have that.

01:10:36   But I'm not happy about that.

01:10:38   Most people just don't get data connections

01:10:40   or data plans for their iPads.

01:10:42   And so, you know, that major difference

01:10:45   between always being with you

01:10:47   and always having a data connection,

01:10:50   that actually makes the iPad even less useful for me

01:10:53   than it normally is.

01:10:55   And so I have to wonder, like, you know, I've said before,

01:11:00   I don't think it's wise to ever bet against the smartphone.

01:11:03   I think the smartphone is an amazing ideal

01:11:08   and it's like the intersection of the best of so many things

01:11:11   and it's so good and it's so useful

01:11:13   and there's so much potential in the smartphone.

01:11:16   For me, if the smartphone had a little bit bigger screen,

01:11:19   which it's probably about to,

01:11:21   which in the non-Apple world, that's old news,

01:11:25   and they've had big screens for years,

01:11:28   I really don't think I'm gonna have a use for an iPad

01:11:32   at all.

01:11:34   Even today, if my iPad got stolen today,

01:11:37   please don't come steal it, but if it got stolen today,

01:11:40   I'm pretty sure I would not replace it.

01:11:43   And so, but you know, if my, like my phone,

01:11:47   the combination of a phone and a computer

01:11:49   is so great for me and I'm wondering, you know,

01:11:52   whether the iPad is really necessary long term

01:11:55   as a product category and whether it's succeeding

01:11:57   long-term as a product category, or whether it will become more of a narrow niche product

01:12:02   as most people realize that a phone and maybe a computer is good enough.

01:12:08   So I would like to argue with everything you just said.

01:12:12   Cool.

01:12:13   So I had an iPad One.

01:12:16   I had an iPad 3rd gen, so the first Retina iPad.

01:12:20   And now I have what I like to call the RetinaPad Mini, which drives Stephen Hackett nuts, which

01:12:25   which makes me want to call it that even more.

01:12:28   And I got the RetinaPad Mini with LTE for the first time.

01:12:32   I'd always had WiFi-only iPads,

01:12:34   and this one I got with LTE.

01:12:36   I got a Verizon RetinaPad Mini,

01:12:38   and then right around the time I got it,

01:12:41   T-Mobile started doing that crazy thing

01:12:42   where you can buy a SIM for $10 one time,

01:12:46   and then they'll give you 200 megs of data for free

01:12:49   every single month.

01:12:51   And the idea is, or I presume the idea is that

01:12:54   It's a gateway drug to get you to pay T-Mobile for data.

01:12:58   Well, what I found is the combination of moving from big iPad to iPad mini,

01:13:06   as paired with this T-Mobile plan that really, quite honestly, gives me enough

01:13:11   data for pretty much any usage I would want away

01:13:14   from a wi-fi hotspot like a friend's house or family

01:13:17   member's house or at home or work, the combination of having an LTE iPad

01:13:22   with just a little bit of data every single month and having it be an iPad Mini made me fall in love

01:13:30   with this iPad Mini so much more than I did my prior iPads, which I kind of went in and out of

01:13:37   love with. I would use them a lot, then I wouldn't use them at all. Then I would use them a lot,

01:13:40   not at all. And I love my iPad Mini. And I wonder if, I wonder if the, by virtue of it having LTE

01:13:52   And either if I could tether against my iPhone, which I can't because I'm still on the AT&T

01:13:57   Unlimited plan, or if I had a plan wherein I could share my data with my iPad for very

01:14:04   little extra per month.

01:14:06   Any of these combinations or the T-Mobile thing that I've done makes me absolutely

01:14:10   adore my iPad.

01:14:11   And generally speaking, when I travel, I don't bring a computer with me unless I'm traveling

01:14:18   for work.

01:14:19   And in fact, we were traveling all of last week.

01:14:23   And the only reason I had a computer with me

01:14:25   was because I had to record the podcast

01:14:27   while we were on the road.

01:14:28   And if it wasn't for that,

01:14:29   I would have left the computer at home.

01:14:31   So it's funny because everything you just said,

01:14:34   it makes sense to me, but I like my iPad

01:14:37   for all the reasons you don't like your iPad.

01:14:40   I know, John, what do you think about this?

01:14:43   - I think the thing that's holding the iPad back

01:14:45   is two aspects.

01:14:46   One is that, as I said in past shows when I was talking about the iPad Pro, if the iPad

01:14:53   wants to take over more of the functionality currently occupied by PCs, it has to expand

01:14:57   its ability to do the things that PCs can do in some vague, as yet unspecified way,

01:15:03   possibly having a larger screen, possibly better multitasking, possibly better document

01:15:08   management, better inter-application communication, all the things that we discussed, right?

01:15:11   So that is, it's like, okay, well, what can you do with that?

01:15:13   Well, the PC market is not as big as the phone market.

01:15:16   Phone market's growing.

01:15:17   PC market, I think, is either growing slowly

01:15:20   or possibly shrinking.

01:15:21   So say the iPad takes over some portion of that.

01:15:25   That still doesn't get you the kind of growth

01:15:26   that people are expecting from it.

01:15:28   It's still like gangbusters, but that's one area

01:15:31   where it probably has to move

01:15:33   if it wants to get some growth.

01:15:34   And the other area is it's gotta come way, way down in price

01:15:37   because what it's competing against is psychologically,

01:15:40   if not in actuality,

01:15:41   competing against cell phones which are free. And they're not free. Like, "Oh, they cost thousands

01:15:47   of dollars a year for your cell phone plans, and iPhone's incredibly expensive." All of that is

01:15:50   true. But psychologically speaking, cell phones are practically free, because most people in

01:15:56   first world countries feel like they need to have a cell phone, and eventually all cell phones will

01:15:59   be what we currently call smartphones. And it's like, you know, it's not free because it costs

01:16:05   a lot of money, but people's like, "Well, I have to have a phone." Right, like the tablet is

01:16:08   is competing against nothing. If you don't buy a tablet, you will spend zero, because

01:16:16   no one's going to say, "Oh, you know what? I'm going to replace my phone with a tablet."

01:16:19   Well, that's the phablet phenomenon, right? But yeah, what they're competing against is

01:16:25   they consider a phone as like, "I have to pay for that. That's a sunk cost, and that's

01:16:30   basically free. Now you're telling me I've got to pay more?" And the thing is, if they

01:16:34   have some task they need to do that is just not convenient or possible to do on even a

01:16:38   very large phone. Their choice is a PC or a tablet, and PCs are traditionally more expensive,

01:16:44   but tablets, especially Apple's tablets, are still pretty darn expensive. If Apple could,

01:16:49   say the Retina iPad Mini was $99, just throw out some fantasy scenario there, there's no

01:16:55   doubt that that would move the needle on sales. And even if you think, "Well, I'm not sure

01:17:00   how I'm going to use this, and I'm not sure how that would shake out," but I just think

01:17:05   The idea that every single home that has a smartphone would also have an iPad just hanging

01:17:10   around just to be that thing that, like the modern, the future world equivalent of a magazine.

01:17:15   I'm just going to sit on the couch and read a magazine.

01:17:17   Well, you're not going to read a magazine.

01:17:18   You're going to look at webpages on your iPad.

01:17:20   Or I'm just going to go up to my room and watch some Netflix or stream something from

01:17:24   my DVR or whatever.

01:17:25   Like the idea that just having a flat screen, even if it never leaves the house, it's just

01:17:29   a convenient thing to have around the house.

01:17:31   and I think the uses of it are fine,

01:17:33   but when it costs $700, you're like,

01:17:35   do I need one of those Future World things, $700 worth?

01:17:38   No, I don't, even $500.

01:17:40   And I think they'll sell a lot more than

01:17:43   if they go down in price, and I guess there's three things.

01:17:45   The final thing is that many people have mentioned,

01:17:48   they're just a little bit too,

01:17:50   they're just a little bit too good so far.

01:17:51   I know so many people who are using iPad 1s

01:17:53   and see no reason to upgrade.

01:17:55   That is the, again, they're competing against the phone

01:17:57   where there's many reasons to upgrade

01:17:58   because of the subsidies and all the other things

01:18:00   or whatever, like, it's tough.

01:18:02   First of all, they don't feel like they should,

01:18:03   'cause they say, "Well, I spent $500 on an iPad,

01:18:05   "I'm keeping it for years."

01:18:06   And the second thing is, well,

01:18:08   I guess unless games stop working,

01:18:11   they don't care if they don't run iOS 7.

01:18:13   I guess they do kind of cycle down to the kids

01:18:15   and let them use it, but it's just,

01:18:17   they are incredibly long-lasting and, I mean,

01:18:20   surprisingly durable for a $500 piece of glass.

01:18:22   You would think they'd all be destroyed by now,

01:18:24   but I've seen so many go through the grubby paws of kids

01:18:27   and just, they survive.

01:18:29   In a home environment, those things survive

01:18:30   for a long period of time.

01:18:32   And so, if there were $99, you'd be like,

01:18:34   "Eh, every year or two I'll get a new one

01:18:35   "of these flat things."

01:18:36   'Cause it's what we use to like, you know,

01:18:38   it's what we use to like read stuff

01:18:40   and read, you know, read web pages.

01:18:42   It's better than reading it on my phone.

01:18:43   I won't drain my phone's battery.

01:18:44   And I use it to watch a video

01:18:45   'cause it's a little bit bigger screen.

01:18:47   And if you could get the price way down,

01:18:49   and if you could get a little bit more capable,

01:18:51   that would make sure that there's an iPad

01:18:53   in everybody's home.

01:18:54   And that would also make sure that when people go on trips

01:18:57   So maybe I don't need to buy a laptop and I can eat into the PC market by just saying

01:19:01   I can take this with me because I can do more or less everything I need to do.

01:19:04   And you would say, when do you reach your limit?

01:19:06   Can developers do everything they need to do?

01:19:08   Probably not, but can you keep going down?

01:19:10   Can people do regular word processing work?

01:19:12   That's still pretty annoying.

01:19:13   That's where the iPad Pro comes in.

01:19:14   So it's not like Apple needs to like, "Hey, you need to sell your iPads at a loss right

01:19:18   now."

01:19:19   But I think just the natural...

01:19:20   Take a look at the Apple TV.

01:19:22   It took a while for the Apple TV to get down to $99.

01:19:26   The iPad is going to take even longer because that screen is tough to really push down much

01:19:30   farther, but give it five, seven years.

01:19:34   When Apple has tablet things that span the same range as iPods do, I think there is a

01:19:40   legitimate reason for every house that has a smartphone to have a tablet device.

01:19:45   If Apple can get its price point down, it could be that device.

01:19:47   I think that's where the growth potential is for tablets.

01:19:49   Yeah, that makes sense.

01:19:52   The thing that I think about is what is really holding the iPad especially, but the iPhone

01:20:00   and just iOS in general, what's holding it back?

01:20:04   And we've talked in the past around this time last year about what's the low-hanging

01:20:09   fruit for iOS.

01:20:12   And I guess maybe low-hanging fruit is a poor way of phrasing it, but what's the thing

01:20:18   that bothers everyone the most?

01:20:20   And copy-paste is the seminal example from years back, that it infuriated everyone to

01:20:27   not have copy-paste. Obviously, that had to show up quickly. Well, inter-app communication,

01:20:32   I feel like we're getting to the point that we're really going to need to crap or get

01:20:35   off the pot, or Apple is really going to need to. I mean, is this the—I don't want to

01:20:39   get into a WWDC prediction episode, but is this the time? Is that enough to make iOS

01:20:46   a little bit more powerful?

01:20:49   Interapp communication itself is a phrase we throw around, it's a concept we throw around

01:20:55   that we think, first of all, we all assume that iOS 8 will improve this somehow because

01:21:02   there's a lot of, you can see that there's a lot of the groundwork already laid in 6

01:21:05   and 7 for this. You have things like remote view controllers, things like the UI activity

01:21:09   system. You can tell that they're taking steps towards allowing this. But the problem

01:21:16   is that Internet communication itself does not really solve the problem. It makes some

01:21:24   things a little bit better. Suppose iOS does something very similar to the contracts you're

01:21:30   intents on Windows Phone and Android, which is what most developers are asking them to

01:21:35   do, myself included. I think that would be great. But I think a big part of the problem

01:21:40   is the document model, the file system model.

01:21:44   You know, where you store your data, how you access your stored data,

01:21:49   where things are

01:21:52   divided, and where things are not accessible from.

01:21:56   And I think that, you know, there's

01:21:59   all this simplicity on these devices of not having to manage your files,

01:22:04   not having to figure out where things are, not having to

01:22:06   go to your parents' house and see everything's on the desktop and that their

01:22:09   hard drive is "full" because they're out of space for their icons.

01:22:14   You avoid all those problems, but the amount of power that that removes from usage is pretty

01:22:20   dramatic.

01:22:21   And I think that, more than anything, is what limits iOS from being used in more productivity-type

01:22:27   roles.

01:22:28   Yeah, Apple's still holding the line on that, and I think most people agree with the sentiment,

01:22:36   And we just hope that, like, well, presumably Apple

01:22:40   has thought of this and has some solution.

01:22:42   Like, the geeks just say, oh, just show us the file system,

01:22:44   and they just want to reproduce all the same problems.

01:22:46   And like, yeah, that would solve it for geeks, right?

01:22:48   But-- modular sandboxing, I guess.

01:22:50   But for everybody else, it's like, well, siloed per app

01:22:54   is simple, but it has all these problems.

01:22:56   And we're all hoping for a solution that does not

01:22:59   give up all the simplicity and go all the way back

01:23:02   to just raw access to the file system,

01:23:03   again, if only for security concerns.

01:23:06   but has the benefits of being able to like,

01:23:08   you know, work, even normal people seem to grasp Dropbox

01:23:13   because Dropbox essentially took the file system problem

01:23:15   and narrowed it down to a single place,

01:23:17   kind of like the desktop, which was the old place

01:23:19   that everyone, you mentioned your icon-swelling desktop.

01:23:21   That was the one place that people felt comfortable,

01:23:23   I just put everything in desktop.

01:23:24   And then what people would do is like,

01:23:25   well, I have all my crap on my desktop,

01:23:27   is this the one place I know how to find?

01:23:29   And I make folders on my desktop for subprojects.

01:23:31   And it's like training wheels for the real file system.

01:23:34   And Dropbox is like that as well.

01:23:35   and it's like, it's the same as the file system.

01:23:38   It's just narrowed,

01:23:39   like your Dropbox is equivalent to the desktop.

01:23:40   But once you start making folders in your Dropbox,

01:23:42   it's like the person who finally starts making folders

01:23:44   on the desktop because lots of stuff.

01:23:45   And they start organizing things.

01:23:46   And like, you just wanted to say,

01:23:47   just go a little bit farther.

01:23:48   Like the whole file system is your oyster.

01:23:50   It's not just the desktop.

01:23:52   - New folder one.

01:23:53   - Yeah, you can put folders anywhere.

01:23:54   - New folder 17.

01:23:55   - Yeah, so I hope that Apple doesn't give up,

01:24:01   but at a certain point, like,

01:24:04   it's kind of like that, you know,

01:24:05   that give up and use Table's CSS joke site from years ago.

01:24:08   It's like at a certain point, it's like, well,

01:24:09   Apple, you've been thinking about this for years,

01:24:11   and if you really can't think of something that's better,

01:24:13   at a certain point, you need to just like say,

01:24:16   we failed in our ability to give you something

01:24:18   that's both simpler and equally powerful

01:24:19   or close to as powerful,

01:24:21   and just give us back the freaking file system.

01:24:23   And I do not want them to do that.

01:24:24   I think that would be not only an admission of failure,

01:24:27   but an actual failure.

01:24:28   So I really keep hoping that they come up with some scheme

01:24:32   that has the security benefits of sandboxing,

01:24:36   but that lets applications easily work,

01:24:38   multiple applications work on the same document.

01:24:40   I mean, that's part of my whole vague,

01:24:41   cloudy iPad Pro vision,

01:24:43   is the idea of using multiple applications

01:24:45   to make a sort of composite document,

01:24:47   or work on a project that has some images,

01:24:50   and some text files, and some this, and some that,

01:24:52   like you would do on your Mac

01:24:54   when you're doing any sort of remotely complicated project,

01:24:57   without it being, you know,

01:25:00   oh, I just do everything in one app.

01:25:01   Like even Xcode's going that direction.

01:25:02   Xcode is like, yes, it's a whole bunch of different things.

01:25:05   You've got images, you've got header files,

01:25:08   you've got source code, you have interface builder documents,

01:25:11   you've got all this stuff, but like it's all in Xcode.

01:25:13   I guess some of the image editor,

01:25:14   once they embed an image editor in Xcode,

01:25:16   we'll know they've really just given up.

01:25:19   'Cause then they can just port Xcode 7 right to the iPad Pro

01:25:22   and it's like, hey, you don't need to launch

01:25:23   a separate app, all your stuff is in one place.

01:25:26   - Does it seem like the iPad app library is stagnating?

01:25:31   Because it seems that way to me, but because I'm not that into using my iPad, that could

01:25:36   just be because I use Tweetbot and it hasn't been updated yet, or whatever.

01:25:41   What do you mean by that?

01:25:42   Which kinds of apps are you talking about, specifically?

01:25:44   It seems to me that, again, anecdotally, so whatever this is worth, I'm not seeing a lot

01:25:51   of iPad apps come out anymore that are interesting or exciting, and a lot of the previously good

01:25:58   apps still either have been updated to iOS 7 and are very dated or are just on really

01:26:06   slow update cycles so they're seemingly abandoned or some of them actually have been

01:26:09   abandoned, some of them have been updated but have been made worse. It seems like the

01:26:14   iPad was a priority for app developers for about two and a half years and now it's

01:26:20   just not. And I can point to lots of, if this is the case beyond just what I'm seeing,

01:26:26   I can think of lots of reasons why that might be the case.

01:26:30   I've been meaning to write a blog post about this,

01:26:33   but I keep forgetting to do it.

01:26:35   But one of the biggest would be the App Store pricing model

01:26:40   and the top list model and how that encourages

01:26:43   the race to the bottom in pricing

01:26:44   and very low prices made up at very large volume.

01:26:47   All of that depends on there being very large volume.

01:26:52   But if the iPad is not being used that much

01:26:54   to buy a bunch of apps, and if instead most of them

01:26:56   are being used to watch videos and browse the web,

01:26:59   and we know they don't sell nearly as well

01:27:01   as iPhones do already, maybe that's a big problem.

01:27:06   I mean, it certainly, it seems to me,

01:27:09   like maybe, like to me, one of the reasons

01:27:11   why I'm not using the iPad is because, like,

01:27:13   the Twitter app is better on my phone,

01:27:15   the RSS app is better on my phone,

01:27:17   like half the things I do on my iOS devices,

01:27:21   like the iPhone, the apps I have on my iPhone

01:27:24   are better than any I can find on the iPad.

01:27:26   Is this just me, or is this a broader thing?

01:27:29   - I think the sales numbers definitely aren't in floats

01:27:31   'cause there's way more iPhones,

01:27:32   but I think there's a bifurcation of applications.

01:27:34   And in the beginning it was like,

01:27:36   well everyone's gonna make all their apps everywhere.

01:27:37   And then eventually people learned which apps

01:27:39   are better suited to which environment.

01:27:41   So to give an example, these days if a new game comes out

01:27:44   I don't have fear that there's not gonna be an iPad version.

01:27:47   And if there's anything that has to do

01:27:49   with reading experience, a magazine app, a comic reader,

01:27:54   something for watching video.

01:27:55   There's no concern that it's not gonna have an iPad version.

01:27:59   Or even anything for like a controlling application,

01:28:01   like the TiVo application.

01:28:02   I'm not concerned that's not gonna, you know,

01:28:04   but anything that's not sort of on the go.

01:28:06   'Cause on the go style apps like Twitter clients

01:28:08   and stuff like that, I don't expect to find them on the iPad

01:28:11   'cause those are like clearly focused on the phone.

01:28:12   Anything that is clearly something you'd wanna use

01:28:14   like a mobile type application,

01:28:17   that's gonna be phone first or phone only.

01:28:18   Whereas any application that benefits

01:28:21   from having a larger screen,

01:28:22   that's gonna be iPad only or iPad first.

01:28:25   And so I definitely do see that split.

01:28:27   And I have the same frustration and it's like,

01:28:30   well, I know most of the time I'm not reading Twitter

01:28:33   on my iPad, but I would like to have a universal version

01:28:36   of whatever my favorite Twitter client,

01:28:37   as a matter of fact I do 'cause I use Twitterrific,

01:28:39   but those type of applications like Glassboard, for example,

01:28:43   there's no iPad version of that and it frustrates me.

01:28:45   I kind of make sense, but on the other hand,

01:28:48   it's like a mobile on the go app, but it's like,

01:28:51   but I'm on my iPad, I have to run that 2X thing,

01:28:54   I just feel bad.

01:28:55   So I just think it's kind of the application splitting

01:28:57   and going to where they need to go.

01:28:58   And unfortunately, some of that split is,

01:29:00   if you need X number of sales to be profitable,

01:29:03   forget the iPad, because there's not that many iPads

01:29:05   out there, but I think a lot of it is just

01:29:07   appropriateness of screen size.

01:29:09   - Well, and to answer your question, Marco,

01:29:11   I'm gonna kind of ask myself and then answer it

01:29:14   with a different question, which is,

01:29:15   what have I been excited about?

01:29:17   What have I been excited about on the iPad lately?

01:29:19   And I'm really excited that the 1Password iOS 7 update just came out.

01:29:24   That's universal.

01:29:25   I'm waiting with bated breath for a Tweetbot update for iOS 7.

01:29:32   And Fantastical 2 came out, and I'm really pumped about that.

01:29:35   That's about it.

01:29:36   I mean, 3s came out for the iPad.

01:29:38   I was excited about that too.

01:29:39   But do you see what I'm saying?

01:29:41   To your point, there's not a lot that's been brand new that has happened on the iPad.

01:29:46   Fantastic Isle is a good example though that I've been really really really excited about

01:29:50   That's happened shoot months if not around a year now. Well, I mean there's games like if you're into playing games

01:29:57   I mean, there's a pretty pretty regular cycle of

01:30:00   Exciting new games that are available for the iPad that come out

01:30:04   I mean, it's not you know, like it's not there are tons of the games that come out

01:30:08   Most of them are crappy but I'm talking about the good games like the current one is like Monument Valley and before that was threes and

01:30:12   and you had things like The Room and Year Walk.

01:30:16   And there's always lots of great software out there,

01:30:19   games that take advantage of a large screen.

01:30:21   But I think a lot of the iPad stuff,

01:30:23   thinking of it as the thing you have around the house, yeah,

01:30:25   it's going to be a video app.

01:30:26   And through it, you're going to consume stuff.

01:30:28   Or it's going to be a comic reader through which you're

01:30:29   going to spend a continual stream of money on comics.

01:30:32   I mean, just ask Merlin.

01:30:33   Like, is he excited that there's a new version of Comixology

01:30:36   out?

01:30:36   No, but it's just like it's a fixture.

01:30:38   It becomes part of that appliance.

01:30:39   And it's an appliance through which you funnel money.

01:30:41   So it's not like there's not money to be made there,

01:30:43   because if you have that app and use it to buy things,

01:30:46   or even just magazine subscriptions,

01:30:48   it's a continual faucet of money,

01:30:51   versus just like, oh, I can sell you one app for $1.99

01:30:54   if I'm lucky.

01:30:55   It's like, no, you'll spend 50, $100 a month on comics

01:30:58   through this one app that we will continually update

01:31:00   and develop, but it's not exciting.

01:31:02   It's not like there's amazing new apps coming out.

01:31:04   But I think there's less of that on the phone,

01:31:06   with the exception possibly of music streaming services

01:31:09   that you pay a subscription for.

01:31:10   the phone is less of a venue for,

01:31:13   I'm gonna download this one app

01:31:14   and yeah, the app will be updated,

01:31:16   but for the next year or two years or my entire life,

01:31:18   I will continue to funnel money through this application

01:31:20   'cause it's the way I get my video, my comics,

01:31:23   or my games or whatever.

01:31:25   - Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it also depends on,

01:31:28   you know, for any, whatever app you're talking about,

01:31:30   like how hard is it, how much work is it

01:31:33   to maintain a separate iPad interface

01:31:35   or a separate iPad app entirely?

01:31:37   And for certain types of things like,

01:31:39   You know, video type apps, it's a lot less work

01:31:42   than something like a word processor would be.

01:31:45   You know, like games, it's, you know,

01:31:48   some work in the interface layout and stuff,

01:31:50   but for the most part, you're getting that fairly easily.

01:31:54   There's, you know, there's all these productivity apps.

01:31:58   That's, it's a lot more work.

01:31:59   Like, you know, I'm not even making Overcast

01:32:02   for iPad when I launch.

01:32:03   And, you know, maybe I'll add it later,

01:32:04   but I'm launching without any iPad interface,

01:32:06   even though I could just say in the P list,

01:32:09   yeah, I work on the iPad, sure,

01:32:11   and just let the interface scale itself up,

01:32:14   but it would look terrible.

01:32:15   I'd rather not do that, and so I'm not doing that.

01:32:18   I'd rather do it well or not at all.

01:32:22   So right now I'm gonna choose not at all,

01:32:23   and then maybe I'll address well later.

01:32:26   But I wonder for how many developers,

01:32:29   how many developers are gonna make that call and say,

01:32:31   you know what, it's probably not worth it.

01:32:33   Like almost every other podcast app on the store

01:32:36   that's popular at all has a dedicated iPad version.

01:32:39   'Cause all of them were written like two to three years ago

01:32:41   when that was a thing you all did.

01:32:43   Like everyone, you had to have an iPad version

01:32:45   two or three years ago 'cause it was like the hotness.

01:32:48   But now, for so many types of apps,

01:32:50   and a lot of apps are still fine on the iPad.

01:32:52   Things that are, you know, you had games,

01:32:54   probably fine, you know, as well as an iOS game

01:32:58   could be doing fine.

01:32:59   You know, so they're probably fine.

01:33:02   Reading apps, things like ComiXology,

01:33:04   you know, reading apps are fine

01:33:06   'cause reading is substantially better on the iPad,

01:33:08   but other kinds of things, utilities, things like that.

01:33:12   It's just-- - Well, I mean,

01:33:13   what about, you mentioned word processors.

01:33:16   Things like ComiCology and Microsoft Word or whatever,

01:33:19   there's no iPhone version of the Office apps, is there?

01:33:23   I don't know, I didn't even look.

01:33:24   - No, I don't think so.

01:33:25   - But I mean, ComiXology, again,

01:33:27   I don't know if that's universal either,

01:33:28   but really, who wants to try to read comics

01:33:29   on their phone screen?

01:33:30   There are certain applications where the big screen

01:33:32   is not only desirable, but it's like,

01:33:34   I'm not going to bother making-- even for games,

01:33:37   depending on what your interface is,

01:33:38   sometimes the games just don't make sense on the phone.

01:33:40   I mean, obviously games are highly

01:33:42   motivated to get on the platform that has more users.

01:33:44   But there are classes of applications,

01:33:46   and I think kind of like Office-style applications

01:33:48   and stuff like that.

01:33:50   It doesn't make sense to make a phone version,

01:33:52   because you have a certain UI in mind,

01:33:54   and that UI only works minimum on the iPad Mini.

01:33:57   It's just not feasible.

01:33:58   It's like, why even bother on the phone?

01:34:00   And I think the reverse is also true for things

01:34:03   like with the podcast app. Maybe you'll find out you're mistaken, but it's like, why even bother?

01:34:07   Who's carrying around their iPad to listen to podcasts while they walk their dog, right? It's

01:34:11   not a scenario you have in mind. Oh, believe me, I'm going to hear from all of them.

01:34:15   Oh, you will. You will. It could be that there is an actual usage scenario where having an iPad

01:34:21   version is useful. It might not just be that those people made it back when it was the thing to do.

01:34:25   You'll find out, I guess, with the feedback. Oh, I can think of one. What if I'm at home

01:34:29   and I want to broadcast via AirPlay or something like that.

01:34:32   And I don't want to use my phone for whatever reason.

01:34:35   It doesn't matter why.

01:34:36   I'm at home and I want to beam to something else over AirPlay.

01:34:40   I would reach for my iPad before I'd reach for my phone.

01:34:43   Well, you could just run the iPhone version of 2x

01:34:45   like I did with Glassboard.

01:34:46   It's not like you're being prevented from it.

01:34:48   What is it about a podcast application

01:34:50   that you would want a specific-- iPad-specific version?

01:34:54   Because for podcast apps, you're not

01:34:56   spending your time manipulating the UI.

01:34:58   You're spending time with the screen turned off, listening.

01:35:01   Sure, but I'm going to want something

01:35:04   that looks good on the iPad.

01:35:05   So to Marco's point, yes, I can absolutely

01:35:08   get away with a 2x version of the iPhone version of Overcast,

01:35:11   hypothetically.

01:35:12   But I wouldn't want it.

01:35:14   I wouldn't be happy about it.

01:35:15   And that may make me come back to my iPhone, which, granted,

01:35:19   this is a huge first world problem.

01:35:21   But nevertheless, I can absolutely

01:35:24   tell you that if I could listen to a podcast on my iPad,

01:35:28   I would in a lot of cases.

01:35:29   Yeah, I mentioned Twitter apps before, and I was kind of speaking to the general case

01:35:33   where Twitter apps imagine it much more popular when you're on the go on your phones, right?

01:35:37   But I do read Twitter actually a lot from my iPad, mostly because what I'm doing when

01:35:42   I'm reading Twitter is following links, and when I'm following links, oh, all of a sudden

01:35:45   I'm browsing the web, and I would much rather browse a web page, A, not get the crazy iPhone

01:35:49   mobile version if they have some crappy iPhone mobile version, and B, just get the much bigger

01:35:53   screen to read things.

01:35:56   Or even if I'm going to Instapaper them from the Twitter application, browsing—it's not

01:36:01   the Tweets themselves that, "Oh, you need an iPad screen to see a Tweet."

01:36:04   Tweets look fine on my iPod.

01:36:05   But most of the time, what I'm using Twitter for is following links that people put in.

01:36:10   It's kind of my on-demand replacement for RSS.

01:36:13   And yeah, I want to read those links on the big screen, or I want to watch those videos

01:36:17   on the big screen.

01:36:18   If someone links to a new Godzilla trailer, I'm much happier to watch that Godzilla trailer

01:36:22   on my iPad than to try to look at the tiny thing on my iPod touch and have to turn off

01:36:28   the rotation lock so I could rotate it so the image isn't microscopic.

01:36:32   How much does this change if there's a 5-inch phone?

01:36:35   We'll see, I guess.

01:36:37   None of us have used a 5-inch phone, right?

01:36:39   So we don't know, like, does it make a difference?

01:36:42   Does it make a significant difference?

01:36:43   Do all of a sudden I feel comfortable watching the Godzilla trailer, or do I still wish I

01:36:46   had it on my iPad?

01:36:47   I guess we'll all find out.

01:36:49   who are using Android phones now already know the answer for themselves, but for the people

01:36:53   in the Apple camp, I, you know, presumably we get these phones, we'll find out how much

01:36:57   it really makes a difference in practice.

01:36:59   See, I think it'll make a big difference for non-power users, for, I don't want to call

01:37:05   them normal people, but non-geeks. And I can't cite a specific example, but I know a lot

01:37:11   of like friends and family who either have been saying, "Oh man, I really hope there's

01:37:16   a bigger iPhone or I left the iPhone because it never got bigger and I wanted something

01:37:23   bigger.

01:37:24   Now, some of these people carry phablets, which personally I think look ridiculous and

01:37:28   I would not want to try to stuff in a pant pocket, but that's just me.

01:37:33   And typically everything I poo-poo, I end up coming around and liking, like Apple, like

01:37:37   Macs, like iPhones, like BMWs, etc. etc.

01:37:41   But anyway…

01:37:42   Oh, and who recommended all these things to you?

01:37:43   Yeah, whatever.

01:37:44   The point is, I think Marco you're right, that for a lot of people, having a much bigger

01:37:50   phone will prevent the need for an iPad.

01:37:56   Although with that said, I wonder, I think John was right in saying having a bigger screen

01:38:02   and not hitting the mobile version of websites is really, really refreshing.

01:38:06   Because in my experience, a lot of times if there's a responsive site, it will either

01:38:12   be considerably better at iPad sizes or the iPad will just see the full bore desktop version.

01:38:20   And I'm curious to see if a five inch or maybe even six inch iPhone comes out this

01:38:27   year, what will happen with responsive sites?

01:38:31   Will they just stretch the current 4, what is it, 4.3 inch version of their site a little

01:38:37   bit?

01:38:38   Will that be a different break point?

01:38:39   And as silly as that sounds, I think that would make a big difference to me.

01:38:42   I think everything's coming up iPad Pro again, because this whole—a larger phone, what

01:38:46   it does is it pushes the iPad to be like, "Okay, differentiate yourself now."

01:38:51   Now with the difference in size between the mini and whatever phone Apple comes up with,

01:38:55   that gap is narrowed.

01:38:57   What is it that you're good at, iPad?

01:38:58   You're like, "Well, I've got a bigger screen."

01:39:00   You're like, "Well, how much bigger?"

01:39:01   Again, do people want to read ComiXology on their bigger phone?

01:39:04   No, maybe not, but maybe it encroaches—it starts to encroach on some things that people

01:39:07   thought they needed an iPad mini for, and they're like, "Well, I can actually get away

01:39:10   with that on my thing."

01:39:11   So to make a spot for itself in that in-between area that the article's talking about, that

01:39:17   find a home between the phone and the laptop, maybe it has to continue to move upscale and

01:39:22   to continue to encroach on PC territory and to take things away from there and to go with

01:39:26   bigger screens, or maybe the mini gets scaled up and the other one becomes the pro and it

01:39:33   gets even bigger.

01:39:36   I think that's inevitable with phones getting larger.

01:39:38   I mean, I guess it depends on how large they get.

01:39:40   If it gets just a little bit larger, then not a big deal.

01:39:42   But some of these phones that I see,

01:39:44   it's like, is that a phone or is that an iPad Mini?

01:39:46   It's really close.

01:39:48   And at that point, what place is there

01:39:50   for an iPad Mini in your life?

01:39:51   All it is is a slightly larger phone

01:39:53   that doesn't work as a phone.

01:39:54   And so then if you're gonna get something at all,

01:39:56   it's gonna be like, what is this tablet uniquely good at?

01:39:59   It's uniquely good at reading magazines.

01:40:01   'Cause I don't wanna read a magazine on my phone

01:40:02   'cause it's still too small.

01:40:03   It's uniquely good at reading comics,

01:40:04   uniquely good at having video, because I don't want to watch a video on this little tiny

01:40:08   thing. And, you know, it's uniquely good at being a multifunction word processor, email,

01:40:13   handling app, blah, blah, blah, within an extendable keyboard, and it becomes the Microsoft

01:40:17   Surface and like, whatever. I feel like there's a potential for it to be pushed upmarket kind

01:40:22   of in terms of capabilities and size.

01:40:24   Right, like, I'm not arguing that the iPad is going to go away or that it's bad at everything.

01:40:30   my position, which I think you agreed with,

01:40:32   'cause I think you said this,

01:40:34   is that it's just going to,

01:40:36   there are things the iPad is better at,

01:40:38   but it's no longer going to be assumed

01:40:44   that everyone who has the means to buy an iPad

01:40:46   should buy one.

01:40:48   That's kind of been the assumption.

01:40:49   Like if you're into this kind of stuff at all,

01:40:52   and you have enough money to afford an iPad,

01:40:54   you should buy an iPad.

01:40:55   - I think it'll be, like I said,

01:40:56   I think it'll be more assumed as we go on,

01:40:58   because it'll just, as the price comes down,

01:41:00   Every house will, if you have a smartphone,

01:41:02   I would assume you also have a tablet

01:41:04   to do the things you do on tablets,

01:41:05   a big tablet, not a little one.

01:41:07   - Yeah, maybe, and I do think that you're,

01:41:10   you know, you're positioning it as like the thing

01:41:13   you have in your home and just keep around the house.

01:41:16   That I think it has a better future for

01:41:19   than being traveling productivity devices.

01:41:23   - Yeah, see, I couldn't disagree with you more,

01:41:25   but I think we're both right is the thing.

01:41:28   It depends on what you're after,

01:41:29   And typically if I'm on the road, I just want to browse Twitter.

01:41:32   Like John was saying, catch up on RSS, do, you know, the things that people

01:41:37   always say are content consumption.

01:41:39   And that's all I need when I'm on the road.

01:41:40   And I prefer to do that on an iPad.

01:41:42   And so I think it would be great.

01:41:46   I would continue to have an iPad for travel if for no other reason.

01:41:49   People do want to leave their laptops at home.

01:41:52   Like there still is that people want to, whether they're ready to or not.

01:41:55   I don't know.

01:41:55   But like, I know I like going places with just my iPad.

01:41:58   And in many cases, I can pull it off.

01:42:00   And there is a desire to do that.

01:42:02   It's just the question of does the iPad yet fulfill that?

01:42:06   Does it live up to the way you want to use it?

01:42:08   And sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

01:42:10   Again, if it starts to push up market a little bit,

01:42:12   people still won't want to bring their full-fledged laptop,

01:42:14   especially if it's their work laptop

01:42:15   or they associate it with work.

01:42:17   But they'll want to have a powerful tablet with them.

01:42:20   - See, I think that the distinction of this idea

01:42:24   of people that don't want to bring their laptops with them,

01:42:27   there's two sides to this.

01:42:28   One is that if it's their work laptop and it's not like,

01:42:33   they're not self-employed or they are self-employed

01:42:35   but they hate themselves,

01:42:37   a lot of people don't want to bring their work with them

01:42:38   because they don't like their work and that's fine.

01:42:40   And so the work laptop has this emotional baggage

01:42:45   of being your work, that you're on vacation,

01:42:48   you don't want to bring this.

01:42:49   But that's one side and you're never gonna get over that.

01:42:52   Eventually you'll have a work tablet

01:42:53   if this goes the way that everyone thinks it will

01:42:56   and you won't want to bring that either

01:42:57   'cause that's your work tablet, so whatever.

01:42:59   That I think we can safely disregard it as a thing

01:43:02   'cause eventually that will be merged.

01:43:04   But the other side of it is people who say,

01:43:07   I don't wanna bring this whole laptop with me.

01:43:10   Laptops in the last couple years

01:43:12   have gotten so much thinner and lighter and smaller

01:43:15   and battery life is going through the roof.

01:43:17   Laptops are getting so awesome

01:43:19   that a lot of people who say that,

01:43:22   they have like a two or three year old laptop.

01:43:24   Well, it turns out modern laptops

01:43:26   are a lot better than that. The last few years have been amazing in laptops.

01:43:30   And if half of the rumors are true about what Apple's lineup is going to have in laptops

01:43:34   in the near future, it's going to be even better. Like they're talking about this

01:43:38   supposed 12 inch Retina Air that might not even have fans

01:43:42   and maybe it might even run on an ARM chip, who knows.

01:43:46   Laptops are really, really good.

01:43:50   And there's a reason why laptops have taken over the world as the

01:43:54   computer of choice for almost everybody who can make that choice.

01:43:58   Laptops are awesome. And they keep getting more and more and more awesome.

01:44:02   They keep getting smaller, thinner, lighter, better battery life, better displays, everything

01:44:06   about them. And the OS's are, you know, well, Windows.

01:44:10   Now you're getting to it, but it's not just the size and everything. It's like the reason

01:44:14   people feel like I don't want to bring my laptop isn't just because it's my work thing. It isn't just because

01:44:18   it's heavier because I have an old laptop. It's also because the experience of using an iPad

01:44:22   because it runs iOS and it's so simplified,

01:44:25   is more relaxing for a vacation type atmosphere.

01:44:29   And again, that gap could narrow as well.

01:44:31   That's what Apple's trying to do.

01:44:32   They're trying to simplify Mac OS X,

01:44:34   they're trying to shave off the edges.

01:44:36   Like these things are on a collision course,

01:44:38   but it's still debatable which one will get

01:44:40   to the critical point first, especially with pricing,

01:44:44   because if a tablet can be 99 bucks

01:44:46   and Apple's best MacBook Air is still 599

01:44:49   in some distant future, the tablets are gonna win

01:44:52   just based on price.

01:44:54   So it used to be definitely a size thing.

01:44:57   I don't wanna be lugging this big thing with me.

01:45:00   As the size issue becomes less, then you get down to,

01:45:02   okay, now it's down to price,

01:45:03   and now it's down to OS simplicity.

01:45:05   And OS simplicity, the PC has a fighting chance

01:45:09   if you look at what Microsoft's trying to do

01:45:11   with Windows 8 and Apple trying to simplify its OS.

01:45:14   On the price front, I don't know, maybe that's a closer,

01:45:19   I was going to say I would give the edge to the tablet, but now that I think about it,

01:45:21   especially if they go to an ARM-based Air, that might be a reasonably fair fight too.

01:45:26   Because in the end, what's the difference between an ARM-based MacBook Air and a Microsoft

01:45:30   Surface and an iPad with a keyboard in terms of pricing?

01:45:33   Like that could be close too.

01:45:35   I don't know.

01:45:36   This is too close to call this race.

01:45:37   I mean, the funny thing is if you think about what people want out of a "iPad Pro," most

01:45:42   people who try to get productivity work on their iPads either use or at some point have

01:45:45   tried keyboards for their iPads.

01:45:48   So you think about, okay, what do you do with the keyboard?

01:45:50   If you've ever used a keyboard on an iPad,

01:45:52   you realize how much the pointing device situation sucks

01:45:55   because you have to keep using the keyboard on the bottom

01:45:57   and then reaching up to touch the screen

01:45:58   to move things around on screen, that sucks.

01:46:00   It seems like what people want out of an iPad Pro

01:46:05   is to make it more like a laptop.

01:46:06   And what if this 12 inch thing is pretty much

01:46:10   the iPad Air's hardware with a keyboard

01:46:13   running a ported version of OS X?

01:46:16   That would solve multitasking,

01:46:17   it would solve document management, it would solve all of the "productivity needs."

01:46:21   Well, it wouldn't solve "solve." People don't like OS X

01:46:25   compared to iOS. It's more relaxing to use iOS.

01:46:29   I know, geeks do, but the appeal of

01:46:33   tablets is broad-ranging in terms of not just

01:46:37   the physical parts of it, it's also the software parts, the same software parts that we're complaining against.

01:46:41   The limitations, that's the line Apple is trying to walk. How do I make the iPad

01:46:45   capable without making it crappier?

01:46:46   How do I make the Mac less annoying to use without removing its capabilities?

01:46:51   Yeah, see, and I come back to what Jon has been saying, which is part of the reason I

01:46:57   ditch the laptop is because it's old and heavy and doesn't have a great battery, but partly

01:47:02   because for the things I do when I'm traveling, which is basically just catch up on Twitter

01:47:07   and RSS and email and so on, I'll just bring the iPad.

01:47:11   And maybe if I'm feeling really exotic, I'll bring my Apple Bluetooth keyboard and

01:47:15   throw it in a suitcase and use it in situations where I'm sitting down at the desk in the

01:47:20   hotel or whatever and cranking out a few emails.

01:47:23   But I'd much prefer that over a small Mac because I find using iOS more enjoyable in

01:47:31   that situation.

01:47:32   I don't know.

01:47:33   We'll see.

01:47:34   Time will tell.

01:47:35   And I guess we also forgot the input method.

01:47:38   Like Marco mentioned the terrible keyboard support in iOS, which really is grim, especially

01:47:42   like cursor control.

01:47:43   And really doing cursor control with touch is also grim.

01:47:46   But for all other applications, people like just being able to touch the screen and move

01:47:51   stuff around.

01:47:52   Say you're using Apple or Google Maps to do nav on your iPad and you want to move the

01:47:57   thing around.

01:47:58   There's just direct manipulation as part of the relaxation.

01:48:00   You're not swiping on a track pad.

01:48:02   You just can touch the screen.

01:48:03   And again, Apple can do something.

01:48:05   They can make some kind of convertible MacBook Air

01:48:09   that the keyboard folds around the back on it,

01:48:11   and then you can touch the screen.

01:48:12   And there are ways out of this, but then it's

01:48:13   like how to use Mac OS X with touch and blah, blah, blah.

01:48:18   The attractiveness and the relaxation factor of the iPad

01:48:22   is about the whole product.

01:48:23   It's about the interaction.

01:48:24   It's about the size.

01:48:25   It's about the OS.

01:48:26   It's about the simplicity.

01:48:27   It's about the applications.

01:48:28   It's about the history, the lack of baggage.

01:48:30   Like, there is a lot to it.

01:48:33   in the same way that there's a lot to,

01:48:34   what's stopping it from being a PC replacement?

01:48:37   There's a huge laundry list of things there as well.

01:48:40   It's not just one thing, and so it's difficult to sort of,

01:48:43   it's difficult to say who's going to be able to make moves

01:48:47   the best and the fastest.

01:48:49   If we fast forward seven years, what does the,

01:48:52   in terms of how many tablets are sold

01:48:55   versus how many PCs are sold,

01:48:56   what do those ratios look like?

01:48:57   Is it like 80% tablets and 20% PC?

01:49:00   Is it 50/50?

01:49:01   We'll know who got to the sweet spot first by looking at those ratios in a decade or

01:49:08   two.

01:49:09   I mean, I think it's going to end up shaking out with basically…

01:49:15   I suspect we're going to see the category which ironically Microsoft started with these

01:49:23   pretty much like laptop tablets.

01:49:26   that are basically just really small laptops,

01:49:31   running laptop type OS's, laptop type software,

01:49:35   whether they're convertible or not, I don't think is that relevant. I think we're going to see the market split

01:49:39   as it matures into, you know, phones are going to keep getting bigger

01:49:43   until they're all pretty much as big as they can be and still fit in most people's pockets.

01:49:48   So we'll have these big phones that'll cut out a lot of the tablet use cases,

01:49:53   tablet rationality at least. Then we're going to have the tablet for consumption people

01:49:59   who like things like big screens or who need to draw on them or do things that most people

01:50:04   could do on a phone but are better on something with a bigger screen. And those might be used

01:50:09   at home a lot or whatever. And then we're going to have people who want to do productivity

01:50:13   type tasks who are really going to want these lap tablets, like the Surface type things

01:50:19   and maybe that's what this 12 inch thing is,

01:50:22   that kind of thing.

01:50:23   I think that's gonna be,

01:50:24   it's gonna split into the more casual

01:50:27   or non-traditional productivity use cases

01:50:31   will keep the current tablet form factor

01:50:35   as their best thing where they run best.

01:50:38   But I think people who keep trying to put their iPads

01:50:41   in these big folio cases and attach a keyboard

01:50:43   to the bottom and all these iPad bolt-ons

01:50:46   trying to make it more like a computer,

01:50:49   I think we're gonna see that usage merge into

01:50:52   just really compact laptops that whether they run,

01:50:55   you know, whether they run Intel chips or not,

01:50:57   whether they run OS X,

01:50:58   I'm guessing it would be really small laptops

01:51:00   running OS X or Windows 8.

01:51:02   Like, you know, really small computers running

01:51:04   regular PC operating systems

01:51:06   with tablet-like hardware, but with a keyboard.

01:51:10   - With touch screens?

01:51:11   - No, well, maybe touch screens optionally,

01:51:13   but probably not.

01:51:14   Probably just, what I'm really talking about

01:51:17   is really like an iPad Air hardware running an ARM port

01:51:20   of OS X, as I said earlier.

01:51:22   I really think that the productivity use

01:51:25   is gonna be so much better on that.

01:51:27   - That's just a laptop though.

01:51:28   I mean, that's not a laptop.

01:51:31   I mean, Microsoft's really taking the bullet on this one

01:51:32   because they're trying to do the thing we're describing

01:51:35   and not doing well at it for a variety of reasons,

01:51:38   not all of which have to do with the design of their product.

01:51:40   A lot of them is just like market timing

01:51:41   and issues with their OS and all sorts of other issues.

01:51:44   - They're basically being the Sega CD of this generation.

01:51:46   Yeah, but the bottom line is they haven't figured out the--

01:51:49   ignore all the software, ignore all the market things,

01:51:51   ignore all the timing things.

01:51:52   They just haven't figured out the hardware,

01:51:54   like kickstand, floppy keyboard, hinge, no hinge.

01:51:58   I mean, everything they've done, it's like an 11-inch MacBook

01:52:01   Air does all those things better in terms of--

01:52:03   it's got the stiff hinge.

01:52:05   That's why I keep thinking of give you stiff hinge,

01:52:08   a keyboard that folds all the way on the back,

01:52:11   and then a touch screen, and then an OS that you

01:52:13   can actually use with touch.

01:52:14   Those are the ingredients they're missing so far.

01:52:16   And I think Microsoft will keep trying with Surface.

01:52:18   Hopefully they will eventually find

01:52:22   the correct combination of physical attributes

01:52:24   and then who knows if they'll ever get the timing right

01:52:26   or their software right.

01:52:28   But Apple, there's still an opportunity for Apple

01:52:30   to figure that out before them if they decide to.

01:52:32   So I guess we'll be watching for this 12 inch Retina Air.

01:52:36   Is it just another Air that happens to be a different size

01:52:39   or are they gonna try to do something special there?

01:52:41   I think Apple does not have an appetite

01:52:45   to try to make a hybrid device of the type that I described

01:52:48   many, many years ago in a back page, Pecan and Macworld.

01:52:51   I think I was saying dual OS,

01:52:53   and certainly Apple's not gonna do that,

01:52:55   but I'm not sure they're even trying to find the solution.

01:52:59   I think they're happy to allow things to evolve

01:53:00   independently and just let them duke it out in the market.

01:53:04   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:53:04   Again, I'm more skeptical that I think it's really just like

01:53:08   in the same way that phones getting larger screens

01:53:14   will eat a lot of the tablet use from the bottom.

01:53:17   I think laptops getting a lot smaller, thinner, lighter,

01:53:20   and having better battery lives

01:53:21   will eat a lot of the top end of the market.

01:53:23   And so I really don't,

01:53:25   I think so many of the people

01:53:27   who are using tablets for productivity

01:53:30   are gonna be very satisfied in a few years

01:53:32   with a really small laptop

01:53:34   that has a lot of the benefits of a tablet hardware

01:53:37   while not having a lot of the limitations

01:53:38   of tablet software.

01:53:40   - Marco, we tried the netbook thing, it didn't work out.

01:53:43   Yeah, that's true.

01:53:45   All right, well thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.

01:53:48   HelpSpot, Lynda.com, and New Relic,

01:53:52   and we will see you next week.

01:53:54   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:53:59   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:54:02   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:54:04   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:05   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:54:06   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:08   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:54:10   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:54:13   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

01:54:15   It was accidental (it was accidental)

01:54:18   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:54:23   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:54:28   @c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s

01:54:32   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:54:37   ♪ Anti-Marco, Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:54:42   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

01:54:46   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:48   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:54:50   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:51   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:52   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:54:54   ♪ So long ♪

01:54:57   I feel like I need to explain my Sega CD reference

01:55:00   'cause the chat room's getting it all wrong.

01:55:02   Saying that maybe I meant the 32X or the CDX even,

01:55:06   I think that was what the Jupiter project became that like it looked like a toilet and it was like a Genesis with Sega CD combo

01:55:13   anyway, I

01:55:15   Don't even think that even came out. But if it did, oh, well, no one bought it

01:55:18   The reason I said Sega CD and not 32x

01:55:21   Is because I was I was using the reference just to you know, Sega Sega was infamous for

01:55:28   putting out technology long before it could be good or at least trying to and

01:55:36   The Sega CD was one of the first

01:55:40   widespread CD-ROM gaming systems, if not the first widespread one.

01:55:44   And it was just awful. It was a 1X drive

01:55:48   and load times were insane. The graphics really weren't

01:55:52   that much better than any Genesis games. It didn't really add much

01:55:56   hardware-wise to the Genesis. It was just very expensive. The games were terrible.

01:56:00   They were mostly FMV adventure games. The only game worth getting really was

01:56:04   CD, almost every game besides that was terrible. And the reason why I made that reference in

01:56:09   relation to the Surface was like the Surface I think was Microsoft having this interesting

01:56:14   hardware idea of doing it like a generation too early basically. Before it could really

01:56:18   be, if it was going to be good I think they did it too early to be good. So that's why

01:56:25   I suggested the Sega CD because that was like they did it like a generation before the other

01:56:30   CD ROM gaming systems, and the other ones were way better than Hit because they had

01:56:35   the benefit of having better technology available to them, whereas the Sega CD was just way

01:56:39   too early, way before its time, and pretty bad as a result.

01:56:44   And that's why the 32X is not an appropriate reference, because the 32X failed for lots

01:56:48   of reasons that had nothing to do with its technology.

01:56:50   The technology was actually pretty good, but it failed for lots of other reasons.

01:56:53   Yeah, I was a Nintendo kid.

01:56:57   As you can tell, I was a Sega person.

01:56:59   What happened to you both?

01:57:01   I grew up.

01:57:02   Ooh!

01:57:03   Yeah, what happened to me was the Sega CD and 32X, and then I stopped being a Sega person.

01:57:09   I might have told the story on the podcast, I don't recall, but when I was in high school

01:57:15   and for the beginning of college when I was at home, I worked at a Babbage's, which

01:57:21   was a subsidiary of GameStop, and I remember vividly peddling the Dreamcast like you couldn't

01:57:28   imagine before it came out. "Oh, it's going to be so much better, it's going to be awesome,

01:57:32   it's going to be awesome, it's going to be so much better, it's going to be awesome."

01:57:34   And then it came out, and it was so much better, I would argue. Although I'm not going to

01:57:39   stand on this one like I did the vinyl argument. Anyway, point being, it came out, like three

01:57:44   people bought it, and then it disappeared and Sega all but folded after that.

01:57:48   I mean, the problem was that by all accounts—I never had a Dreamcast, but I played one a

01:57:52   few times here and there—by all accounts, the Dreamcast was a good system. The problem

01:57:57   was Dreamcast followed the Sega CD, the 32X, and the Saturn, all of which were terrible

01:58:02   game systems. And so Sega's fan base was pretty burned by that point. And there were other

01:58:07   factors involved as well that made the Dreamcast kind of fail. But the biggest problem with

01:58:13   the Dreamcast had nothing to do with its hardware. The hardware was actually really good.

01:58:16   Yeah, agreed.

01:58:18   So Jon, out of curiosity, what should we have been talking about besides the Sega CD and

01:58:24   Casey's Nintendo fanboyism. What was the proper answer to what game systems we used in the early 90s?

01:58:32   I was saying what happened to you. You were both enthusiastic gamers as kids and then

01:58:36   fell off the wagon or onto the wagon. I don't know whichever analogy is the one that's bad.

01:58:40   Yeah, I'm never straight on that actually. I mean, for me personally, it was getting into things like

01:58:47   personal side projects and like side programming projects and making and then eventually working

01:58:51   for myself and writing and podcasting, like all this other stuff I'm doing with my free time,

01:58:56   where I just don't, like there's never a time during the day when I think I would like to spend

01:59:01   the next hour playing a video game. Like, I used to have those moments and now I just don't. There

01:59:06   are other ways I'd rather spend that time now. Yeah, same here. Like, when I was younger,

01:59:12   the Nintendo 64 came out and I was still hugely into that. Like, I blew so many hours on

01:59:18   Goldeneye and Mario Kart, I can't even tell you.

01:59:21   And then I just kind of stopped playing games.

01:59:24   I think I might've found girls around that point,

01:59:26   or more appropriately, I might've actually started

01:59:28   to have some modicum of success with girls.

01:59:30   But I remember vividly buying a PlayStation,

01:59:34   the original PlayStation with my own money,

01:59:37   and getting Metal Gear Solid in one of the Final Fantasies,

01:59:40   and playing the crap out of those.

01:59:43   And then I never really looked back at games ever again.

01:59:47   Well here's what you two are missing right now.

01:59:50   For the same reason that I assume you both like to watch

01:59:53   television and movies, like you still both do that,

01:59:55   and it's a thing that you enjoy,

01:59:57   the experience afforded by the best modern games

02:00:02   is like the best movie you've ever seen

02:00:05   combined with the best TV you've ever seen

02:00:06   multiplied by 20.

02:00:07   For people who are into games and who are, you know,

02:00:10   fluent in the interface and vocabulary of gaming,

02:00:14   a great game, I think all gamers would agree,

02:00:17   is a superior experience to a great movie to them,

02:00:21   'cause they're gamers, right?

02:00:22   And so even if you're not that into games,

02:00:24   I would think that a really great game

02:00:26   could give you the equivalent experience

02:00:28   of a really great movie or a really great TV show.

02:00:31   And just like movies and TV,

02:00:32   there's gonna be a lot of crap,

02:00:33   there's gonna be a lot of stuff you're not interested in,

02:00:35   there's gonna be stuff that's disappointing,

02:00:37   but that's why I continue to find time in my schedule

02:00:40   to play these games.

02:00:43   A, I like to follow the industry, so it's just a hobby,

02:00:45   just reading about it or whatever,

02:00:46   what games do I play? I don't have a lot of time to play games, but I make time to play

02:00:50   the games that I think are going to be great, and I enjoy them immensely, and I'm glad I

02:00:54   carve out that time in the same way that I carve out time to watch Game of Thrones or

02:00:59   In the Past, The Wire or The Sopranos or all those other things that you find time in your

02:01:02   schedule. I'm not going to watch every TV show. TV is mostly crap, but The Sopranos

02:01:06   is great, and I'm going to watch it. And I feel the same way about playing The Last of

02:01:10   Us or certainly Journey or anything like that. So it's not like, you know, I'm not saying

02:01:14   You both have to be. Not saying you both have to be gamers or whatever, but I think that it isn't.

02:01:20   It's reasonable to assume that were you to pursue gaming, there would be games that you would enjoy

02:01:25   as much as you enjoy your favorite television programs or movies.

02:01:28   Yeah, but let's consider that I tend to have terrible taste in music, television, and movies.

02:01:43   But I mean like you like what you like like there's a bazillion games out there

02:01:46   There's a bazillion movies and TV shows if you like to watch you know

02:01:49   Supernatural then that's the kind of show you want there are gaming equivalents of that like I'm saying it's at this point

02:01:55   It's a genre as rich as television or movies or books for that matter

02:01:59   Well, maybe not as rich as those things but moving in that direction, but certainly in mass-market appeal. There's

02:02:06   Probably something that you could find that would appeal to you the problem

02:02:09   I think for people who aren't into it is like well

02:02:11   how do I know what to pick? Like, to me it's just one big giant blob of games, and if you're

02:02:15   not following the game industry and reading game magazines and reading gaming news sites

02:02:18   and following gaming people on Twitter, you don't know which thing to pick. And if you're

02:02:22   just going to the store like, "Oh, I'll just try this game," you'll try it, it will be

02:02:25   crap, you'll be annoyed, and you're like, "See, this is why I don't play games, they're

02:02:28   stupid." Right? So there is that barrier. I'm not saying it's easy to come into, but

02:02:32   I think that there's nothing about the two of you, including your age or maturity level,

02:02:37   is preventing you, but is making you incapable of enjoying modern gaming.

02:02:40   Because for a reasonable approximation, everybody enjoys modern gaming.

02:02:45   Everybody's a gamer, to some degree or another.

02:02:48   And if anything, you two are standing out as oddities in that you used to be gamers,

02:02:52   and now as adults just sort of cut them out of your life entirely, and that's becoming

02:02:55   increasingly rare.

02:02:56   Wait, you think this is like unusual?

02:02:58   Yeah!

02:02:59   What?

02:03:00   I don't think so.

02:03:01   Yeah.

02:03:02   I'm with Marco.

02:03:03   Go look at the numbers on the gaming industry.

02:03:06   go look at the average age of a gamer. You are not in the majority.

02:03:11   You're saying that it's unusual for people to play games when they're younger and then

02:03:14   not play games when they're like in their 30s?

02:03:16   Yep. What do you think the average age of a gamer is?

02:03:18   No, I know it's going up, but that doesn't necessarily mean what you just said.

02:03:22   Yeah, but just look at the distribution. Look at how many people—how big is the gaming

02:03:25   industry? How many copies do games sell? How many people say they play games at all? Like,

02:03:31   it's massive. It is mass market. Most people play games. Certainly most people who have

02:03:35   any kind of computing device do? I don't know. I'm with Marco on this. I have no facts to back me up,

02:03:40   but well, that never stopped me before. Yeah, me neither.

02:03:43   That just doesn't pass the smell test for me. And what's interesting is...

02:03:49   It does. You sound like my parents. I'll let the readers read it and tell you all this.

02:03:54   It doesn't say... You're still playing games? You haven't grown out of those? The equivalent

02:03:58   I always used to give my parents, which they found non-convincing at all, and you also find

02:04:01   non-convincing, but I will do it again. It's kind of like if my grandparents' parents could

02:04:09   see them at 85 years old and say, "You guys are still playing PNUCKLE? You didn't grow out of

02:04:14   cards? How can you be playing?" It's like they played it their whole life. They played card

02:04:17   games when they were kids. They played it till the day they died. That was their version of games,

02:04:22   is these card games. They didn't grow out of them. And in the same way, anyone who's actually a

02:04:26   game, of course, never grows out of them. But at this point, anyone who grew up with games

02:04:32   continues to play them their whole life. They don't stop playing them in the same way that

02:04:34   my grandparents never stopped playing P-Nuckle. It's not something you grow out of. It's not like

02:04:39   a child's toy. There's no such thing as adults would never want to do it. Games are not like

02:04:47   that. It's like saying, "You still watch movies? Isn't that a kid thing? You still read books?

02:04:51   That's not just something for kids?" I don't want to suggest that games are juvenile,

02:04:55   because that's not at all what I mean, and that's not why I stopped playing them for the most part.

02:04:59   It's literally just like, there are many different ways to entertain yourself these days,

02:05:03   and I have chosen to not play very many games anymore, to hardly play any at all anymore,

02:05:08   because all of the alternatives, all the alternatives to amusing myself or to spending time

02:05:15   things like browsing the internet or socializing online or watching TV series on Netflix,

02:05:22   Like, I've chosen to do all of those things instead.

02:05:25   But that's not true because you and Tiff both love board games.

02:05:29   And yes, it's not video games, but it's games.

02:05:32   And if I'm moving the goalpost, that to me counts.

02:05:37   And similarly, I don't really play games anymore, but if I'm in a group setting,

02:05:41   I love to play a game of Cards Against Humanity.

02:05:44   Or I enjoyed, what was it, Puerto Rico that we played in South Carolina, Marco.

02:05:49   And what was it we played just this past weekend?

02:05:51   I already forgotten.

02:05:52   JONATHAN HARRIS Thank you. Games like that I really enjoy.

02:05:56   And the other thing I've found that I fill my free time with, if I'm not just farting

02:06:00   around on the internet, is I've gotten really back into reading novels again, which I used

02:06:05   to do a lot as well as a kid, and now I've gotten back into that. And so realizing that

02:06:11   the local library is one of the best inventions of the world, I've pretty much had a book

02:06:16   with me almost always for the last six months to a year.

02:06:19   Well, see, now you're back in the minority again, because most Americans anyway don't

02:06:24   read.

02:06:25   You ever see those scary statistics about how many people don't read a novel after they

02:06:28   graduate from high school?

02:06:30   That is not, yeah.

02:06:31   Yeah, I don't want to think about it.

02:06:32   But gaming is much more a mass market than reading novels.

02:06:35   Yeah, that's probably true.

02:06:36   Oh, yeah, definitely.

02:06:37   I mean, and really, you guys too game a little bit.

02:06:39   Like you're saying, you're thinking like, if I'm not playing Grand Theft Auto, I'm not

02:06:42   gaming.

02:06:43   I mean, like, letterpress counts, you know?

02:06:46   total annihilation or whatever you're playing with your friends at your friend's wedding.

02:06:50   Like that counts. That's not like...

02:06:52   That didn't happen by the way.

02:06:53   Well, you tried.

02:06:54   Failing to play total annihilation.

02:06:56   That's PC gaming. PC gaming is attempting to get a game to play.

02:07:00   No, I know. But even console... Like I have a PS3. The only game I have for it is the

02:07:06   Wipeout version that was a download game. I bought it thinking I'd get more gaming out

02:07:10   of it, but I also just wanted a Blu-ray player. And at the time it was about the same price

02:07:15   as a Blu-ray player, so I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'll get the PS3," and yeah, never use it as a gaming console.

02:07:19   Wait, that's not true either, is it? Because I thought you had something to learn the Nürburgring on.

02:07:24   Was that the PS3 or the Xbox? I forget which one I chose. You know what that might have been the PS3?

02:07:29   I forget, but I used that for like three nights total, so okay, I might have two games for it.

02:07:35   The problem for getting into these type AAA-type games is that, like, if you're out of it for a

02:07:41   for a long time. Again, you're lacking in the literacy of the current gaming conventions

02:07:45   and genres. And so, yeah, you can fire up a driving game, because driving games are

02:07:49   driving games. But were you to-- I mean, that's why I don't spend my time encouraging you

02:07:54   too much to play Journey, because I feel like if you played it, it would be lost on you,

02:07:57   in that you're missing the context to appreciate that game fully. And it's almost like--

02:08:00   You have spent so much time encouraging me to play Journey.

02:08:03   I know. But it's clear that you're not going to do it. And so now I'm almost like, I'd

02:08:08   I'd rather you not play it.

02:08:09   I'd rather you have a bunch of warmup games

02:08:11   if you ever got to that point.

02:08:12   Because you'd play it and you'd be like,

02:08:14   man, it's all right, it's kind of boring.

02:08:17   The game would be lost on you.

02:08:18   And the same thing with like, you have a PS3,

02:08:20   should you play The Last of Us?

02:08:21   No, if you haven't played a AAA video game

02:08:23   in years and years, The Last of Us is not,

02:08:25   it's not gonna work for you the way it works

02:08:27   for the people who are still sort of

02:08:31   in the AAA gaming thing.

02:08:32   You were definitely both of you

02:08:34   in more of the casual gaming space.

02:08:35   So I'd say, yeah, get Monu and Valley, it's fun.

02:08:37   like, I don't think it's, you know, it's all right. It's not amazing. I think it's a little

02:08:42   bit too easy and a little bit too short and not even as I think your walk was a much better

02:08:47   game. For example, I think ridiculous fishing is a better game, for example. But those are

02:08:50   types of games where you don't need a lot of context, you can just dive right into them.

02:08:54   And I think, for example, both of you probably enjoy ridiculous fishing.

02:08:56   I played ridiculous fishing for about 10 minutes and didn't see the appeal. And I know everyone

02:09:01   loved it. And so that's I assume, you know, what happens is I will try these games that

02:09:05   that everyone says are amazing and they're being big hits.

02:09:09   I'll try them and most of them, I mean, you know,

02:09:12   like I got into threes and letterpress, you know,

02:09:14   like the kind of, and dots, like, you know,

02:09:15   I get into some iOS casual games, but most of these games

02:09:19   that people just totally obsess over,

02:09:22   I don't find them that fun.

02:09:24   And so I assume there's something wrong with me

02:09:25   that I'm just not a gamer because I don't like

02:09:28   what everyone else likes.

02:09:29   - But you are, like you made your own units

02:09:31   for whatever that was, was that total annihilation?

02:09:33   I mean, like-- - Yeah, when I was 16.

02:09:35   Right, but you still had the instinct to want to play.

02:09:39   That's still inside you.

02:09:40   It's just that now all of your touchstones are now out of date, so when you try to play

02:09:44   something modern, it doesn't work.

02:09:45   Casual games like Ridiculous Fishing, when I first tried it too, I thought, yeah, whatever.

02:09:49   But there is a hook in the game, and if you're allowed to go, maybe you need to be a little

02:09:53   bit more of a gamer for that hook to find purchase.

02:09:55   Monument Valley is simpler, but I think it's more of a trifle.

02:10:00   Year Walk is probably, you would need to be a gamer to play that.

02:10:03   I'm just trying to think, like, threes and letterpress,

02:10:06   you guys both have no problem getting to that.

02:10:08   Because it's more like a board game,

02:10:09   which Marco does play actively,

02:10:10   like, and then you're like,

02:10:11   "Oh, I understand what this is about, more or less."

02:10:13   It's like--

02:10:13   - By the way, by actively, like, I'll play,

02:10:15   we'll play board games, meanwhile,

02:10:16   we'll play board games with, with like, you know,

02:10:18   friends who are over sometimes.

02:10:20   I would say we probably play board games

02:10:22   for maybe an hour and a half every two months.

02:10:26   Like, we're not talking about a frequent hobby.

02:10:28   I would like to play more of them, 'cause I do enjoy them.

02:10:31   But, but yeah, it doesn't,

02:10:32   I don't get the chance that often.

02:10:35   That's more of a time investment from my perspective than a video game, because you've got to get

02:10:40   all the stuff out, and you get to multiple people, and they all have to be there, whereas

02:10:44   a video game you can steal time to play more conveniently than you can steal, because you

02:10:47   can't play one of these complicated German board games that requires five people, and

02:10:51   they all have to know the rules already, otherwise you're going to be there for an hour.

02:10:54   That is not something you can steal time and just grab a quick game of, or even put in

02:10:58   an extra hour of, "How did I play The Last of Us?

02:11:01   I played it when the kids were asleep, when my wife was out of town in a series of, you

02:11:05   know, one or two hour sittings.

02:11:08   And I could not play a...

02:11:10   If I had a board game that I was interested in, I would be like you and waiting around

02:11:12   to have time to gather a bunch of people who also want to play a board game, who also know

02:11:16   the rules to play the board game.

02:11:18   So I think that's...

02:11:19   It's harder to find time to do that, but you manage to do it.

02:11:22   And it's fine.

02:11:23   I'm just saying, I think there is enjoyment to be had.

02:11:25   There is nothing in you that's making you like, "Oh, I'm just not a gamer.

02:11:28   I guess I don't love these games that everybody loves."

02:11:30   A lot of times you're just missing the context for it.

02:11:33   And I think there are games out there that you would enjoy.

02:11:37   Yeah, I'm sure there are.

02:11:38   But I think you're right that I'm not

02:11:41   willing to put in a massive time investment

02:11:43   to try to find these things.

02:11:45   I'm not willing to say, oh, yeah, I'm

02:11:49   going to spend this whole Saturday afternoon--

02:11:51   like if my wife's out of town and my kid's asleep,

02:11:54   the thing I would most want to do is go to my computer

02:11:58   and write or program.

02:12:01   I love doing those things.

02:12:02   I would rather do that than go to the TV and play a game.

02:12:07   - Someday you'll be ready for Journey, Marco.

02:12:09   Maybe Adam will do it for you.

02:12:10   'Cause Adam will wanna play games probably

02:12:12   'cause they're a fun thing to do

02:12:13   and kids have nothing to do about,

02:12:15   you know, they have nothing but free time, right?

02:12:16   So maybe he'll help you get you into them.

02:12:18   But someday when you're ready,

02:12:20   Journey will be there for you presumably

02:12:21   with the PS5 remastered version.

02:12:24   - Yeah, and you know, if that happens,

02:12:25   like, you know, if my kid ends up liking games,

02:12:26   Yeah, and I agree. That's that's likely you know, if he ends up liking games and I'll play with him

02:12:30   That's a whole different story then I would you know because then I'm spending time with my kid and you know interacting with him while playing

02:12:36   These games that makes sense. Of course, then you'll suck and you'll be the dad who can't play games

02:12:39   Well, but isn't that how it always has to be you probably suck too. You just don't realize it. No, not my family

02:12:44   I will tell you the day when my any of my kids can beat me in any video game and I am determined that day

02:12:50   Will never come

02:12:51   Alright, now it's time for titles.

02:12:54   So let's see what we've covered in this episode so far.

02:12:57   We've had OS X reviews, Journey...

02:13:01   File systems, yep, file systems.

02:13:03   We had it earlier.

02:13:04   We have seriously hit the John Syracuse, like, quadfecta.

02:13:08   We're not even close, we didn't even mention TiVo.

02:13:10   Like, there's so many things that I didn't even touch on.

02:13:14   [BLANK_AUDIO]