49: Roamio and Siracusiet


00:00:00   They introduced the iMac. It was on a pedestal. The G4 Cube came up from the floor.

00:00:05   Phil Scheller had to jump onto an airbag. That's real power.

00:00:09   [

00:00:09   So, we got some email from an Apple store genius.

00:00:15   Yeah, last week we were talking about iCloud and who buys more storage for iCloud, and

00:00:21   I think I said that I imagined that people would go in, not knowing what this error message

00:00:26   on their phone means, saying "It says something about iCloud, blah blah blah, fix it, Mr.

00:00:31   Genius person at the bar."

00:00:33   And what I assumed they would do is say, you know, the genius would tell them, "Oh, it's

00:00:38   iCloud we only give you a certain amount of storage for free, you've run out of that,

00:00:40   if you want more you have to pay blah blah blah, and the customer would be pissed and

00:00:43   they would say I don't want to pay more money for this stupid thing or whatever, but I figured

00:00:46   they would eventually just pay because they just want to keep using their phone the way

00:00:49   they used to use it.

00:00:51   And then at the end of that I joke that it said oh I guess they could just turn back

00:00:54   off stuff entirely if they think nothing will ever happen to their phone.

00:00:57   Well according to this Apple store genius who's been there for two years, people do

00:01:01   come in with the message that they don't understand what it means, it says not enough storage,

00:01:05   And he says, "The customer's first reaction is not to pay for something they don't understand.

00:01:09   They just turn iCloud backup off and never think about it again."

00:01:12   So there you go.

00:01:13   Oh, God, that's so painful, but that's extremely believable.

00:01:18   The other thing is, "Or they don't understand how to turn the prompt off and will just hit

00:01:20   OK every morning when an iCloud backup was attempted."

00:01:23   So that's their new way they use the phone.

00:01:25   It's like, every morning there's this dialog box, then I hit OK and it goes away.

00:01:28   It doesn't bother me until the next few days.

00:01:30   And he says, "There are very few people who have actually paid for iCloud storage.

00:01:33   In recent memory, the only people I can think of that bought it are people that assume iCloud

00:01:36   storage will increase with the size of the phone's storage capacity.

00:01:41   We talked about that before, like how ideally, you know, whatever they're going to do with

00:01:46   iCloud storage, it would match the size of the total sum size of the devices you have.

00:01:51   So whether that's free or whether it's a fee or whatever, it seems like as you buy more

00:01:55   devices, your storage should expand.

00:01:56   Apple should somehow build that into the price of the devices or build that into the price

00:01:59   of iCloud, but they don't.

00:02:00   They give you its freemium.

00:02:02   They learned it from the App Store.

00:02:03   They give you a little bit for free,

00:02:06   and then you inevitably reach the limit,

00:02:08   and you get some sad thinking of people going,

00:02:10   oh, I know how to fix this.

00:02:10   I'll just turn iCloud backups off.

00:02:12   Done and done.

00:02:13   - If the problem is I get this box every morning

00:02:15   that's annoying, it does fix the problem, in quotes.

00:02:18   You know, I don't know.

00:02:20   I think this, you know, the more we hear about

00:02:24   these stories of how regular people hit these walls

00:02:27   on their iOS devices of this photo storage wall

00:02:31   like what to do once you've hit that wall.

00:02:34   It's just so sad.

00:02:36   Really, it's tragic how many people lose their photos

00:02:41   that they've taken.

00:02:42   And you know, keep in mind, a lot of people,

00:02:44   their phone is their primary or only camera.

00:02:47   And you know, they could be taking like the only pictures

00:02:48   they have of their kid.

00:02:50   You know, and look, actually I know somebody

00:02:52   who this happened to.

00:02:53   So, you know, these problems really are affecting

00:02:57   a lot of people in very big ways.

00:02:59   And I have to imagine, you know, what we have now with iCloud photo backup, this can't be

00:03:07   like it. Like this can't be the solution to this problem, period. Apple really has to

00:03:12   address this in a more serious way. And you know, we've talked so much in the past, I

00:03:17   don't want to go over it too much, we've talked so much in the past about the challenges of

00:03:20   things like upstream bandwidth and uploading all your photos and especially what the heck

00:03:24   you do with videos that gain space on the device way faster than most people could upload

00:03:30   them to a web service. But I think there's such a huge gap between the ideal of backing

00:03:37   up everything and where we are now of backing up kind of partially some things that are

00:03:43   very confusing. I think there's a lot of middle ground between those two that we can still

00:03:47   achieve today, you know, that Apple could still achieve today if they wanted to. And

00:03:51   It just seems like either they can't get their act together on that yet or it's not a priority

00:03:55   enough.

00:03:56   Yeah, and I actually have some sort of related follow-up.

00:03:59   So last episode, I lamented the fact that I had what I thought was multiple gigabytes

00:04:05   of messages data on my iPhone, and it was so much that it was preventing iCloud from

00:04:11   backing up my iPhone because I was running out of space and I hadn't paid for any extra,

00:04:15   et cetera, et cetera.

00:04:16   So I don't remember if I had hard facts at the time we recorded, but I can tell you I'm

00:04:19   I'm looking at my iPhone right now, and I have three and a half gigabytes of messages

00:04:24   data as per the settings than I believe it's general than usage, yeah, general than usage.

00:04:31   And so I concluded that I really need to get this off of my phone, and as much as I love

00:04:36   my animated GIFs, I can find them elsewhere.

00:04:39   And so tonight I paid $35 for iExplorer, which used to be known as iPhone Explorer, and I'm

00:04:45   sure someone will write and tell me, "No, you idiot, you should have done it this way,

00:04:48   Here's the secret hack to get to these things, but nevertheless I paid for this app, and it will let me extract

00:04:55   SMSes from an unencrypted iTunes backup, so I had to do an unencrypted iTunes backup well anyways

00:05:01   It will do many things it will save PDFs of your iTunes of your messages. It'll save

00:05:07   CSVs and it'll also save

00:05:10   text files and I

00:05:13   exported just

00:05:15   My conversations with Aaron my wife and as a PDF which does like the little chat bubbles and everything it was

00:05:21   217 megs as a CSV file where it's nothing but text it was still two megs of messages

00:05:28   and that's because I haven't deleted any to my recollection since I got my

00:05:31   3gs in what either 2008 or 2010 I always get that wrong so anyway

00:05:36   so the point is there I had a lot of messages on my phone, and I don't view this as

00:05:41   something abnormal and and this is something that I feel like a lot of regular people do and and I'm really

00:05:49   I'm surprised that Apple hasn't found a better way to handle this and it makes sense because

00:05:55   In Apple's perspective it stands to reason they wouldn't have to handle this because maybe normal people do delete their messages

00:06:02   But I would assume that not all normal people do and certainly I think of myself as slightly normal and I didn't

00:06:07   So this is kind of a bummer and and hopefully after the show

00:06:11   I'll be able to go through and delete all of these text messages and

00:06:15   all of the animated gifs and emojis that are associated with them and

00:06:19   Hopefully reclaim all that three and a half gigs and then be able to use iCloud for backups again

00:06:24   So I guess you don't need this new

00:06:26   romantic matic application

00:06:28   Do you know about this? No

00:06:31   Someone made an application. I think I think it was Greg Noss or somebody I know from the incomparable

00:06:36   Oh, is this the thing that pings you?

00:06:38   Reminds you to send the nice text messages to your significant other.

00:06:41   It seems like you're all set in that regard.

00:06:44   Oh, that could have been a fast text feature.

00:06:46   It could have been.

00:06:47   He doesn't need it, obviously.

00:06:49   Clearly not.

00:06:50   Which, by the way, I have a new icon for fast text.

00:06:53   My internet friend, Jacob Swydek, has been working with me.

00:06:57   That poor guy.

00:06:58   And I have a new icon.

00:07:00   I haven't quite finished the update to fast text,

00:07:03   but I don't need to hear any more complaining from John and Marco about the icons soon.

00:07:07   I'm going to complain if the new one doesn't have feet.

00:07:10   Doesn't have feet.

00:07:11   No!

00:07:11   I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

00:07:14   But the icon is so much better. Oh my goodness, it's so much better.

00:07:17   No feet, no sale.

00:07:19   Going back, I said to the photo thing, and the messages thing too. It's one of those problems

00:07:29   where iOS has this kind of idealized picture of conditions of usage. And this has been

00:07:38   a problem with a lot of Apple software, you know, the iPhoto storage and organization

00:07:43   methods, iTunes, etc. There's these idealized situations that I guess the designers at Apple

00:07:51   figure this is how people use this thing. And they try to hide the complexity of dealing

00:07:57   with computers and the reality of computers. And when you get to something like the photo

00:08:02   storage and backup issues on iOS, and even things like messages taking up a ton of space,

00:08:10   I think the big problem is that you're hitting these places where it's, to use a Joel on

00:08:15   Software term, it's a leaky abstraction. Like, you can't hide the realities of computing

00:08:21   devices have limited storage space, and photos and videos shot by good cameras are huge,

00:08:27   and upstream bandwidth in most places is not great, and oftentimes not free for very long.

00:08:34   And there's all these kind of inconvenient truths in the reality of using these computing

00:08:39   systems that iOS either ignores or buries so deeply that people do have to deal with

00:08:48   the problem of storage space. That's a reasonable thing to expect somebody using a computer

00:08:53   device to do is like, well, you have this much space and you're trying to store more

00:08:58   stuff than it holds, so you've got to make some decisions here. And iOS really makes

00:09:02   that hard. You know, Merlin talked about this a lot too. It makes it very hard to know where

00:09:07   the storage is being used. It's very hard to control that, to delete things intelligently,

00:09:13   to make space intelligently, to know what's being backed up somewhere and what isn't.

00:09:18   You know, a lot of the blame for this lays on the design of iOS for trying to pretend

00:09:24   like these realities don't exist, when in fact they're extremely common.

00:09:28   iOS loves to do the thing where, like the usage screen where I spend a lot of my time

00:09:32   because I always buy 32 gig iOS devices and I can barely fit my stuff on them. So I'm

00:09:37   always right up against the storage limit because of like movies for the kids and other

00:09:40   random things that I put on there. You know, video always pushes me over the edge. So I

00:09:43   So I spend a lot of time on the usage screen looking at that stupid scrolling list and

00:09:46   expanding it and seeing it.

00:09:47   And the solution to your out of room is look at that big list, find the application that's

00:09:55   like that's big that you don't think that you need or whatever and delete the entire

00:09:58   application because you're like, "Well, can't I just delete a couple of the things in that

00:10:03   application?"

00:10:04   In some cases you can, like video you can delete individual videos from the video application.

00:10:06   But in other cases, applications are not designed to say, "Hey, I'm Application Foo and here's

00:10:11   all the list of the data that I'm storing and you want, I can purge my caches, I can

00:10:15   delete these old things that you haven't seen in a while. I can, you know, just some way

00:10:19   to manage the data in the application. The only solution is, you know, hold down, go

00:10:23   into wiggle mode, hit the little X, nuke the whole application. I mean, I recently had

00:10:27   to do that with Instapaper because I was up to like 1.2 gigs. Instapaper was 1.2 gigs.

00:10:32   Instapaper doesn't have any way like within it to like trim its data or whatever. I could

00:10:36   have gone through the individual things and deleted them off or whatever. The easiest

00:10:40   thing for me to do, because luckily Instapaper has a server-side component, was to delete

00:10:44   the whole app and then reinstall it. And there was basically no loss in functionality, but

00:10:48   whatever the hell Instapaper was keeping around was gone, and then Instapaper shrunk back

00:10:51   down to its normal size. And I'm sure it's slowly growing back up as I go. I mean, that's

00:10:55   an extreme case or whatever, but same thing with the SMS thing. You could have gone through

00:10:59   the SMS app and deleted individual messages if you wanted, but nobody, after a certain

00:11:03   - once you hit that limit with SMS, I know so many people have hit this limit in iOS,

00:11:07   No one's going to go back and delete individual messages.

00:11:10   And there's nothing in the messages application

00:11:12   that says delete messages older than x,

00:11:14   delete messages from, you know, do something complicated.

00:11:18   Do like a search query, find all those, delete.

00:11:20   Like there's not a lot of good solutions

00:11:21   and you can't delete the messages application

00:11:23   as far as I know.

00:11:24   So iOS tries to simplify things,

00:11:26   but then it ends up chunking it

00:11:27   into these big immutable blobs of data.

00:11:30   And people are forced to make choices like,

00:11:32   should I delete this entire application?

00:11:34   I guess it's my only choice.

00:11:35   I mean, and some people, maybe they don't even know

00:11:37   that you can go into the video

00:11:38   and delete individual videos, but yeah,

00:11:41   it's a difficult situation.

00:11:42   It will kind of be better if,

00:11:44   when Apple does a storage shift,

00:11:47   because I think most people can get away

00:11:49   with like a 64 gig device and be pretty sloppy,

00:11:52   but lots of people are buying 16s,

00:11:53   and that's just not enough for anybody to use

00:11:55   for more than like a year and not run out of room.

00:11:58   - Well, in either way, if you have the 16 gig device,

00:12:01   and if you have 16 gigs of legitimate data on it,

00:12:04   that's not gonna get backed up to iCloud

00:12:06   unless you pony up some money.

00:12:07   And this is where, like you guys had mentioned earlier

00:12:10   in Bradley Chambers,

00:12:10   I think was the first place I've seen this,

00:12:12   said, well, the amount of iCloud backup you have

00:12:15   should be the cumulative size of all of your devices

00:12:19   associated with that account.

00:12:20   So if you have a 32 gig phone and a 32 gig iPad,

00:12:24   then as far as we're concerned,

00:12:26   the size of the, your iCloud allotment should be 64 gigs,

00:12:32   which is a lot more than five obviously.

00:12:35   Even then though, like, I mean obviously we're not talking about, you know, desktop size

00:12:39   backup sets, but even that might hit problems with upstream limits.

00:12:43   Yeah, very much so. But I mean at least it's a step, it's an improvement.

00:12:48   True, yeah, definitely.

00:12:50   All right, we are sponsored this week. Our first sponsor is lynda.com. L-Y-N-D-A dot

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00:15:54   Thanks a lot to Linda, lynda.com/atp.

00:15:59   - So, we talked a lot about Google last episode

00:16:03   and buying Nest and so on and so forth,

00:16:05   and we've had at least a couple of people write in

00:16:08   and actually have some really interesting feedback

00:16:11   about that, but John, I believe it was you

00:16:13   that added something in particular?

00:16:15   - Yeah, I just wanted to note this one thing

00:16:17   that, not to go into too much depth,

00:16:19   but we were talking about why they buy Nest.

00:16:20   Is it because they want to get into consumer products,

00:16:22   because they want more information, blah, blah, blah.

00:16:24   And Troy Diamond wrote in to mention one specific product

00:16:28   that is actually directly connected to what Nest does,

00:16:30   which doesn't necessarily mean that it has anything to do

00:16:32   with why they bought Nest,

00:16:33   but it's an interesting coincidence.

00:16:36   There's this Genie project that they were doing.

00:16:38   It's about creating like a smart building

00:16:41   for sustainable construction

00:16:43   and environmentally friendly buildings and stuff like that.

00:16:46   And this was part another one of their pie in the sky things that Google does like self-driving cars or whatever

00:16:52   And apparently they spun it off into another company

00:16:56   So I don't know how much bearing this has a nest but it just goes to show that the type of things that nest is

00:17:01   Doing albeit on a very small scale using technology to make things that we all have that we've you know

00:17:07   We don't question like our thermostats or smoke detectors or whatever more intelligent to try to make for more efficient building

00:17:13   Google's already gone down that road

00:17:15   partially with this project.

00:17:17   I should put this link in the show

00:17:18   once people want to know more.

00:17:19   Again, I don't think this has much to do with Nest at all,

00:17:21   but it just goes to show the similarity of thinking.

00:17:24   Nest is not too far from something

00:17:25   that Google might have done, although the way Google does it

00:17:27   is to do some crazy far-reaching sci-fi thing

00:17:31   and then just lose interest and spin it off.

00:17:33   But Nest actually focuses on one small area

00:17:35   and ships a product that people might want to buy.

00:17:37   So I think this might turn into the John Syracuse show,

00:17:41   which will probably make a lot of people,

00:17:43   including me, very happy.

00:17:45   I hear that there's some things going on with TiVo that happened right before we recorded

00:17:50   and were recording on Wednesday night.

00:17:52   Yeah, so this is late breaking, so there's not much info right before I was going in

00:17:59   to set up my computer to record.

00:18:01   Someone tweeted some link to a Wired story that TiVo had laid off most of its hardware

00:18:08   design teams, supposedly, and that they're getting out of the hardware business, which

00:18:12   really annoys me mostly because I don't want to buy the new TiVo that came out. Like when it came

00:18:17   out people are like "oh aren't you gonna get this new TiVo it's supposedly faster" so on and so forth

00:18:21   and I read all the reviews and I said "no just wait for the next one" right? Well doesn't maybe

00:18:25   there won't be a next one. It's a confusing article where it says they laid off five people

00:18:29   and that was most of their hardware design team. I mean I guess that would explain some things but

00:18:33   I don't know it's still too early to know if this is like a a rumor gone bad and they just did some

00:18:38   some sort of reshuffling or whatever,

00:18:40   but it seems like TiVo wants to get into the business

00:18:43   of supplying software to other people who make set-top boxes

00:18:46   and doing server-side DVRs like the AT&T U-verse thing,

00:18:51   rather than selling you a box with a hard drive

00:18:53   and a CPU that you put in your home.

00:18:54   And I kind of like the box with the hard drive

00:18:56   and a CPU that you put in your home.

00:18:58   So as I tweeted, does this mean now I have to get

00:19:02   one of these TiVos because like my television,

00:19:06   it's like, well, it's the last one they're making

00:19:07   when it goes away, who knows what you'll be able to buy?

00:19:10   I don't know.

00:19:11   I just priced one out, and even with a discount code

00:19:14   that you get for filling out their stupid monthly survey

00:19:16   things, it's still like $900 something

00:19:20   dollars for me to get the big Honk and Tebow that I

00:19:23   want with lifetime service.

00:19:24   Wait, what?

00:19:26   Are you serious?

00:19:27   Half of that is the service cost.

00:19:29   So the box itself is $500 or less

00:19:32   for the big one that holds like 450 hours of HD content

00:19:35   with six tuners.

00:19:37   This is what we're talking about here.

00:19:38   This is the big guns.

00:19:39   I don't shop down at the low end of the range.

00:19:41   And then double that price for the service contract.

00:19:46   And the service contract is basically paying for them to send you program information for

00:19:51   the life of the device.

00:19:52   You could pay like $12 a month if you want to do it month by month, or you can pay some

00:19:56   big amount of money and get lifetime.

00:19:58   And I usually get lifetime because I keep my TiVo boxes for years.

00:20:01   I slowly rotate them and retire them out.

00:20:03   But most of the time, the lifetime thing more than pays for itself because I retire the

00:20:06   TiVo after 3, 4, or 5 years and it's, you know, at $12 a month doesn't take too many

00:20:11   years to equal like $100, $200 or whatever it used to be for lifetime.

00:20:14   But they keep bringing the prices up and I don't want to pay month to month so I always

00:20:18   look at the lifetime thing.

00:20:19   But my current lifetime on my TiVo Premier is not close to being paid for.

00:20:23   I forget what I paid for that lifetime thing.

00:20:25   But that's another reason I didn't buy the new Romeo DVR when it came out, even though

00:20:30   it does look like it's faster and nicer than mine.

00:20:32   Some of the menus still were in HD and I said, "Oh, I'll just wait for the next one.

00:20:35   I'm still in the middle of my lifetime in this, I don't need a new TiVo, my current

00:20:39   TiVo is fine, such as it is.

00:20:42   But now that they're getting out of this business, now I have to play that stupid game where

00:20:46   I wait and see if I can get one of these when they become cheap or maybe they'll never become

00:20:49   cheap and they'll just disappear.

00:20:51   I don't know.

00:20:52   I'm kind of sad about it though.

00:20:54   So everything you like is disappearing from under you.

00:20:57   I'm surprised there's a new Mac Pro.

00:20:59   Well...

00:21:00   Sort of.

00:21:01   Yeah.

00:21:02   It's not that like, the TV thing is just like a fluke kind of where, because there will be better

00:21:08   TVs eventually, like OLEDs will eventually become cheaper and they'll be way better than what I have

00:21:11   now, but it's just, you know, that we're in a lull period where the thing that I want is going away

00:21:18   and something better will come and replace it, but I don't know when that will be. But the television

00:21:24   I was, you know, it was a clear choice because my old TV, like you could buy almost any modern TV

00:21:29   and it would be better than my old one, just because technology had moved on in four years

00:21:33   for Plasmas.

00:21:34   But for TiVo, my current one is still pretty darn good.

00:21:38   It's very reliable.

00:21:39   Four tuners, I don't need six tuners.

00:21:41   Four tuners is enough.

00:21:42   The only reason I would get the new one is because the UI is faster, and that's the thing

00:21:45   that drives me crazy about my current one, that and the stupid ads.

00:21:50   So I don't know.

00:21:51   I haven't decided what I'm going to do, but I'm sad that they're apparently getting out

00:21:55   of the hard...

00:21:56   Like, I still think there's a market for this product.

00:21:58   What it does is amazing.

00:21:59   People who I know who have never had TiVo and they happen to buy one, like Scott McEltee

00:22:03   from The Incomparable had never had a TiVo I think and he bought one recently and he's

00:22:06   just amazed by it.

00:22:07   He's like, "Wow, this is great."

00:22:08   I'm like, "Yes, I could not watch television without TiVo.

00:22:13   I would never want to use a cable company's DVR.

00:22:15   I would never want to not have a DVR.

00:22:17   This is how I want to do it.

00:22:19   It's just that this hardware could be so much better.

00:22:21   It just needs a little bit of finesse and know-how applied to it to make the CPUs faster,

00:22:26   make everything about it better, improve the software.

00:22:30   It's so close and it's so much better than everything else, but to see them bail on the

00:22:35   business and just decide they're going to get in bed with the cable companies and just

00:22:38   supply software.

00:22:39   I don't know where their expertise lies.

00:22:42   Are they great at making hardware?

00:22:44   No, not really.

00:22:45   Are they great at making software?

00:22:46   No, not really.

00:22:47   The combination is something that didn't exist before.

00:22:48   The box that you could have in your house is kind of like transport.

00:22:50   A box in your house with the hard drive, with stuff on it, no cloud stuff needed.

00:22:55   program information you can come down and it's got a lot of features now like

00:22:58   the iOS apps aren't that bad. You can control your TiVo from the other side of

00:23:02   the country with your phone or your iPad. You could stream to your

00:23:06   iPad from your house and what there's all sorts of things you can do with the

00:23:09   hardware that they have. They finally started to kind of get some useful

00:23:12   features under them. It's just that the hardware was not great and their

00:23:16   software was a little bit creaky. I don't know. I'm sad.

00:23:21   Well, if that makes you sad, what do you think of the Nintendo stuff?

00:23:26   Oh, you're evil.

00:23:28   That actually makes me less sad, yes.

00:23:30   That's the next thing I'll say.

00:23:31   But before we leave this topic, I want to ask you guys, do either one of you guys have

00:23:33   a TiVo?

00:23:34   No, I have Verizon's DVR that comes—well, I shouldn't say "comes" with your cable

00:23:41   service, but just a year ago, Aaron and I finally decided that I think $10 or $15 a

00:23:48   month was worth it for DVR.

00:23:49   So everyone else on the planet had had a DVR for easily five years and we just got one,

00:23:56   like I said, around a year ago.

00:23:58   And I really like it, but I feel like I could live without it and I don't find it to be,

00:24:04   I find it to be sufficient because I've never really used a Tebow.

00:24:08   All I needed to do is record the shows I want and play the show I want when I ask it to

00:24:12   play it.

00:24:13   I guess maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't see why you need anything more than that.

00:24:18   And my menus, if memory serves, are in HD.

00:24:22   How much programming can you fit on your...

00:24:25   Oh, I don't have the faintest idea.

00:24:26   We don't watch enough TV to ever get that close.

00:24:30   To me, I always avoided this stuff.

00:24:32   I had a DVR box from the cable company for a few years, and then I was one of those people

00:24:41   who cut cable.

00:24:43   And that was a while ago.

00:24:44   I mean, that was in like 2007, 2008 maybe?

00:24:48   So it was a while ago.

00:24:50   And to me, one of the reasons I did that is because,

00:24:54   like as a nerd, looking at DVRs,

00:24:57   it's just such a terrible hack.

00:24:59   And it's hacks on top of hacks on top of hacks.

00:25:02   Mixing in TiVo is even more hacky,

00:25:04   'cause then you have to deal with your cable company's crap

00:25:06   and it's like, it's layers upon layers of fragile,

00:25:09   hacky things that can and often do fail or break.

00:25:12   And I would rather just put the same amount of money

00:25:17   really or less, what ends up being less most of the time, into Netflix and iTunes purchases.

00:25:24   And it works for us because the shows we watch are available that way and the money works

00:25:29   out where we don't watch so many shows where that would be prohibitively expensive. It

00:25:35   doesn't work for everybody, of course. If you like live sports and stuff like that,

00:25:39   it's not going to work. But for us, it works very well. And so to me, that's a much more

00:25:44   elegant solution if you can fit within it,

00:25:47   'cause then you don't have to fast forward

00:25:48   through commercials, you don't have to worry about

00:25:49   what if the thing missed the start time by five minutes

00:25:52   'cause something changed at the last second.

00:25:54   All that crazy stuff you have to deal with with DVR,

00:25:56   storage space, I mean, all that crazy stuff,

00:25:59   I prefer to just do the 80% solution of,

00:26:03   I can get 80% of what we want in this far better way

00:26:08   that's usually cheaper and has all these other advantages,

00:26:11   like for example, no commercials ever.

00:26:12   all these other advantages.

00:26:14   It's just, to me, that's a much more elegant future.

00:26:16   And so the idea of buying a really decked out DVR for me

00:26:21   seems like investing in the wrong future.

00:26:25   But again, it's only because my consumption habits

00:26:28   fit within the way I've chosen to do things.

00:26:30   There are some advantages, even if you're not a heavy TV

00:26:32   watcher.

00:26:33   If you're a heavy TV watcher, like I am and my whole family

00:26:36   is, then you can't use a cable company to provide DVR

00:26:39   because they don't have enough storage space.

00:26:41   My thing has, I think it has like a three terabyte drive in there and we fill it constantly.

00:26:45   We're deleting stuff to make room for things.

00:26:47   So we fill the thing up because it's just four people's worth of programming in there.

00:26:51   Actually we have another two terabytes upstairs and we use the superset of that storage.

00:26:57   So if you're a heavy TV viewer, it's obvious that you can't get by with any other solution.

00:27:03   And if you're a heavy TV viewer, that also means you're not content to wait until they

00:27:06   show up on iTunes.

00:27:07   It's not even the money thing.

00:27:08   It's just like, can I watch it right now?

00:27:09   It's on right now.

00:27:10   I watch it right now or have one you're just torrented isn't available although

00:27:13   I have a good deal with the torrenting and stuff like that

00:27:15   It's like this this is the the solution that gets you the programming you want

00:27:19   When you want it more or less

00:27:22   And if you don't care about that then yeah, there's solutions better

00:27:25   But I would say even

00:27:25   Even if you're not a heavy TV watcher and even if you don't care about a little bit delay the main feature that I think

00:27:30   Of all these DVRs in the age of cable card is they make it so you don't have to have a cable box if you think

00:27:35   You want to have cable for whatever reason I can't imagine having a cable box

00:27:39   I've never had a cable box.

00:27:41   I've never had a cable box in any house that I-- let me see,

00:27:44   maybe in the apartment?

00:27:45   I don't think in any house that I've owned.

00:27:47   I've had a cable box at all.

00:27:48   When before, maybe before or around the time

00:27:51   my first child was born, we said, OK, we're

00:27:53   not going to have time to watch our TV shows the way

00:27:55   we normally have.

00:27:56   Because once you have a kid, you can't be like, oh, it's

00:27:57   8 o'clock.

00:27:58   Let's go sit down and watch the TV.

00:27:59   Because that doesn't work anymore.

00:28:01   And that's when I sort of said my goodbyes to live TV.

00:28:04   It's like saying your goodbyes to the light

00:28:06   when you become a vampire.

00:28:07   When I got my first TiVo like nine, ten years ago, that was it.

00:28:10   I said goodbye to live television.

00:28:12   I will never watch live television again.

00:28:14   I will never see a commercial again that I don't skip through with a 30-second skip

00:28:16   button.

00:28:17   Live television is dead to me.

00:28:19   Flipping through channels is dead to me.

00:28:21   All that, totally gone.

00:28:22   From that point on, for like the past decade of my life, television is like, go in front

00:28:26   of my television, turn it on, go to some box that's connected to it and select what I want

00:28:30   to watch from it.

00:28:31   And it just so happens that TiVo is filled with all the programming that I want to record.

00:28:37   in sort of real time. And even when we watch "live television" we always wait for the commercials

00:28:41   to queue up. We don't start watching our 8 o'clock programs until 8.30 because we know

00:28:45   we'll never have to see a commercial that way. You don't have to do it with HBO shows,

00:28:48   we can watch them in real time because they have no commercials. So I just think it's

00:28:51   a more civilized way to watch television because cable boxes, DVRs or no, cable boxes are disgusting.

00:28:57   Just terrible black boxes with those big red LEDs on them and the horrible remotes they

00:29:02   give you. I never want one of those things in my house at all. And this is like, you

00:29:05   You can buy your own box, get this little cable car,

00:29:07   put it in there, and get FiOS or something in the basement,

00:29:10   run the coax up there.

00:29:12   It's the same reason I don't use

00:29:13   the cable company's router.

00:29:14   I don't want their box, I don't want their router,

00:29:16   I don't want anything in the house.

00:29:18   So for that reason alone, I think if you subscribe to cable,

00:29:21   it is better to have one of the smaller TiVo DVRs

00:29:26   than to take their cable box.

00:29:28   But if you don't want cable,

00:29:29   then yeah, the TiVo's not doing anything for you.

00:29:32   And if you can get by with the, I think even Casey,

00:29:34   Depending on how much you use your Verizon DVR thing, you would probably like a TiVo

00:29:40   better but probably not to be worth the amount of money that it costs.

00:29:43   Although how much do you pay per month for that DVR thing?

00:29:46   I think it's about $15.

00:29:47   And I don't debate that a TiVo is surely better in every measurable way.

00:29:52   And probably a bunch of immeasurable ones as well.

00:29:55   But to me, having never had a DVR before, I'm just excited that I have a thing, a machine

00:30:02   if you will, that will record the television shows that we do watch without me having to

00:30:07   intervene. And to your point a moment ago, I used the Verizon piece of crap Action Tech

00:30:13   router that I was given when we moved into the house in 2008. And I haven't...

00:30:18   It's some kind of intervention.

00:30:20   Probably. But it hasn't caused me any issues. Now for Wi-Fi, I use a slightly old airport

00:30:29   extreme so really the only thing that this router is doing is getting internet to my

00:30:35   set top boxes and getting internet to my airport extreme.

00:30:39   And for that, it's fine.

00:30:43   And again, I completely understand and agree that not having to use the Verizon router

00:30:48   would probably be better and not having to use the Verizon DVR would probably be better

00:30:52   but it serves my needs just fine and so I don't have any compelling reason to upgrade

00:30:57   that I'm aware of.

00:30:58   15 dollars a month though, that adds up.

00:31:01   You should wait until they have a fire sale in the last Tivo Romeos and get one of the

00:31:04   small ones and just try it.

00:31:05   I think cost-wise it may end up being cheaper and it will be a nicer experience.

00:31:11   Probably.

00:31:12   And the chat room is saying, "Oh well, you're renting that equipment."

00:31:15   I'm absolutely renting the DVR.

00:31:18   I don't recall if I'm renting the router.

00:31:21   It stands to reason I am.

00:31:24   But again, for me it's sufficient and I mean our Verizon bill is somewhere around

00:31:30   $150, $160 for the baller but not obscene internet.

00:31:36   So not quite Marco level but really good internet and reasonable cable.

00:31:42   We have HD service of course but we don't get any like Cinemax or HBO or anything like

00:31:47   that and we even have a home telephone for a reason I haven't quite figured out yet.

00:31:51   And for that it's about $150.

00:31:53   And I actually, I love my Fios.

00:31:55   I would be devastated if we ever moved to a place

00:32:00   that didn't have Verizon Fios.

00:32:01   So, I mean, I don't think that that's a terrible deal,

00:32:04   but I don't know, maybe I'm missing out.

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00:34:14   All right, so we never actually got to Nintendo, right?

00:34:16   Or am I crazy?

00:34:17   No, we didn't.

00:34:18   I'm delighted.

00:34:18   OK.

00:34:19   OK.

00:34:19   Are they dead yet?

00:34:20   Oh.

00:34:21   Yeah, it's going to be a while.

00:34:24   Yeah, so they announced their financials,

00:34:26   or their expected financials or projections.

00:34:29   And they are forecasting a $240 million annual loss,

00:34:33   because the Wii U is not selling.

00:34:35   And they're cutting their forecast

00:34:36   on how many Wii U's they think they're going to sell.

00:34:39   They previously had saying they were going to sell 9 million, and now they're saying

00:34:42   they're going to sell 2.8 million.

00:34:44   And even Wii U games, they cut that from saying they were going to sell 38 million Wii U games,

00:34:49   saying they were going to sell 19 million.

00:34:52   So you know, everyone knows that Wii U is not selling.

00:34:55   Nintendo has not done anything to make it sell any better.

00:34:59   3DS is doing okay.

00:35:01   Not great, not terrible.

00:35:02   It was actually the best-selling console of all of 2013, which is not that impressive

00:35:06   because what did it compete with in 2013?

00:35:09   A bunch of old consoles that were on their way out the door,

00:35:11   but it was also the best-selling console in December,

00:35:14   which is kind of impressive because in December

00:35:15   the new consoles were just coming out

00:35:17   and you think they sold like a million dollars

00:35:19   in the million units in the first day or whatever.

00:35:21   So I mean, compared to the DS numbers, 3DS isn't big,

00:35:25   but compared to how dedicated gaming devices are selling now

00:35:28   3DS is doing pretty well for itself.

00:35:30   Wow, someone, real-time follow-up in the chat room,

00:35:34   someone, TiVo refutes the rumors and said hardware

00:35:36   a core component of its business." Okay, well, I'll read that link later to see.

00:35:39   Like, you know, I read that when somebody posted it earlier, and the actual response from the

00:35:46   TiVo person, it kind of... Double speak.

00:35:50   It basically sounds like they're trying not to scare people away from buying the Romeos.

00:35:56   So it's basically saying, like, "We're going to keep supporting the Romeo." But it doesn't...

00:36:00   It's a lot of double speak that basically sounds like, "We're going to keep supporting that,

00:36:04   but don't expect much else because we're focusing on cloud. Yeah, that's kind of like when Panasonic

00:36:10   was getting out of the plasma business for like a year leading up to that, there was like there'd

00:36:15   be a story saying, "Oh, Panasonic is getting out of the plasma business." Panasonic would issue some

00:36:19   statement that neither confirms nor denies, but kind of tries to tell you, "No, it's okay. You

00:36:23   should buy our existing TVs because we have inventory to clear," but never officially saying,

00:36:27   "We're getting out of the business," until like the whole year is up and then Panasonic then

00:36:30   finally officially says, "Yes, it's true. We're getting out of... So where there's smoke,

00:36:33   this fire but we'll continue with that. I'll look at that story after the show. That's

00:36:38   why I prefaced it with saying I just saw this link just before we came in. Who knows how

00:36:41   accurate it is. It's kind of fuzzy information but the signs don't look good. But anyway,

00:36:46   Nintendo, I don't think there's any news here. Like we all knew that the Wii U wasn't selling

00:36:50   that well. I guess they could have sold gangbusters in December but even if it did, I mean the

00:36:57   PS4 and Xbox One sold pretty well in December. Like they're coming out of the gate strong

00:37:03   and they got outsold by the 3DS.

00:37:06   And what I've always said about Nintendo,

00:37:08   and this is the time of year when people

00:37:10   are gonna keep posting more stories about it,

00:37:11   what Nintendo should or shouldn't do or whatever,

00:37:14   is that as long as there's a market

00:37:16   for dedicated gaming devices, Nintendo can,

00:37:19   Nintendo has a way to thrive and to be successful

00:37:23   and to be the Nintendo we want it to be.

00:37:25   Just because there is a way for them to do that

00:37:26   doesn't mean they will do it.

00:37:28   That's the distinction that,

00:37:30   you know, subtlety is that most people

00:37:32   will probably forget about. There is a way for Nintendo to win as long as people are

00:37:38   willing to buy hardware that mostly just plays games. If people stop being willing to buy

00:37:43   hardware that just plays games, Nintendo can't play anymore because Nintendo can't make a

00:37:48   general purpose OS, I don't think. They don't have the expertise. They can barely make a

00:37:51   dedicated gaming console software stack. They can't make something based on Android. They

00:37:57   can't make their own iOS. They can't be a platform. They just can't do that. They don't

00:38:00   don't have the people do that. It's very difficult to do. So as long as people keep buying dedicated

00:38:06   gaming devices, all Nintendo needs to do is make really good dedicated gaming devices

00:38:10   with really good games that people want to buy. That's it. It sounds easy, doesn't it?

00:38:14   Well, if they don't make game hardware that people want to buy and games that people want

00:38:19   to buy, they can still fail under that scenario, but at least it won't be like, "Well, it's

00:38:22   out of the question." They can't. I think there's nothing they can do to say, "We're

00:38:27   going to make our own operating system and our own app store and our own general purpose

00:38:30   platform that does more than games. That's just out of the question for them. The only

00:38:34   thing they can do and the only thing I think they should do is try to make game devices

00:38:39   that people really want to buy with great games that people want to buy on them. And

00:38:43   that's it. And they're not doing that now. They made the Wii U and no one seems to want

00:38:47   it for I think what should be fairly obvious reasons at this point. It's weak, it has bad

00:38:52   third-party game support because it's weak. It's like a previous-gen console that no one

00:38:57   is really interested in and that the novelty this time of the second screen is not catching

00:39:01   on with people and Nintendo hasn't demonstrated why it should catch on. It's just a bad situation.

00:39:07   But they do have $14 billion in the bank. As I said, I think a couple months ago when

00:39:11   this came up in the first round of Nintendo WoW, it's like they just need to reset and

00:39:16   think about what they're going to do for their next thing. They don't need to give up on

00:39:20   Wii U. They still need to put out whatever games they have planned for the Wii U, even if it doesn't

00:39:24   sell a lot of units, and third-party support is just disappearing for the Wii U, because who the

00:39:27   hell is going to make a game for a crappy console that can't run modern games and has very few,

00:39:33   you know, and is not selling a lot of units? No one's going to sign up to make games for that.

00:39:36   It's just grim. But Nintendo will make games for it, because Nintendo will make money off its games

00:39:40   for it. And, you know, what choice do they have? So I think that will just make games for the Wii U,

00:39:46   put them out, the thing will sort of fade away, and Nintendo just needs to think about what it's

00:39:50   going to do next. Spend that part of that $14 billion wisely and come out with a good idea,

00:39:56   with a good platform, and hope that by the time they do that, that the market for dedicated gaming

00:40:01   hardware has not disappeared. As I've said many times, I think there is room for one more

00:40:05   generation of dedicated gaming hardware, and this is it. PS4 and Xbox One. After the PS4 and Xbox One,

00:40:11   seven, eight years from now, I'll have to revisit that question and say, is there still a market for

00:40:15   for dedicated gaming hardware, maybe then the answer will be no and then Nintendo is

00:40:18   screwed. But for now, Nintendo just did a big swing and a miss this generation with

00:40:22   their consoles and maybe got like a foul tip with their handhelds.

00:40:27   Which, do you think, are they in worse shape now as they were when they launched the GameCube?

00:40:32   I know the GameCube was not a huge success, was it?

00:40:36   They're worse off now in terms of sales, but I'm assuming they have much more money in

00:40:40   the bank now than they did back then. Because the GameCube, you know, if you look at the

00:40:44   the GameCube sold more than, easily more than the Wii U. Like, if there were all the problems that

00:40:50   the GameCube had, Nintendo would kill if they get GameCube-like numbers on the Wii U. They do not

00:40:55   have that now. And the DS sold way better than the 3DS. But a lot of that is kind of like,

00:41:00   look at the downward trend of dedicated gaming devices. Like, overall, the market is slowly

00:41:05   declining. And so everything's like relative. It's like, well, the 3DS is doing well now,

00:41:10   but nothing compared to the DS. And the GameCube was seen as a failure because it was a third-place

00:41:14   console then, but boy, what Nintendo would give to sell GameCube-like numbers of Wii

00:41:19   U at this point.

00:41:21   So if you take off your Nintendo fanboy, and I mean that in a good way, hat, you're the

00:41:26   only one of us that has a Wii U, and when we visited I played it for five minutes, and

00:41:32   it seemed nice, but whatever.

00:41:35   Taking off the hat, the fanboy hat, is it a good system?

00:41:38   I know what you just said about it being not very powerful, but just in general, is it

00:41:42   good?

00:41:43   that Nintendo will make for the Wii U, and that they already have made, demonstrated

00:41:48   as a platform that you can have fun games on.

00:41:51   And as I said before, you can have kinds of fun and kinds of games on the Wii U that you

00:41:56   can't have on any other console because of that weird second screen thing.

00:42:00   It doesn't mean that they're the most amazing games in the world, but there's experiences

00:42:03   you can't have other places.

00:42:06   And like Nintendo Land, the thing that demonstrates, like here's umpteen different ways you can

00:42:10   use our combination of hardware.

00:42:12   Some of them are fun, some of them aren't, but out of that big collection of minigames,

00:42:15   there's three or four in there that are really interesting and novel that can't be matched

00:42:19   anywhere else.

00:42:20   And so if you're into games and you want to say, "Show me a new way to be entertained,"

00:42:23   instead of just another first-person shooter, Nintendo is showing you that.

00:42:27   Kind of like on the Xbox One and the Xbox 360 with Kinect, Microsoft said, "You can

00:42:33   stand up in front of the TV and wave your arms and legs around.

00:42:35   That's a new way to play games.

00:42:37   Try that.

00:42:38   Do you like it?

00:42:39   Is it fun?"

00:42:40   something you can't experience on the other consoles because they don't have the Kinect.

00:42:43   You know, they may have the eye toy and the other things, the cameras or whatever, but

00:42:46   Nintendo does have something novel with the Wii U. And so that's one aspect of it.

00:42:53   The second aspect is Nintendo makes great games and their games are going to be on the Wii U,

00:42:58   their games are not going to be on any of the other consoles. So if you're interested in playing

00:43:03   the next Zelda game, there's only one place to do that. And maybe the next Zelda game won't take

00:43:07   advantage of any of the Wii U unique features at all, but it'll still be a great game.

00:43:12   It's kind of the same reason I got a PlayStation 3 to play The Last Guardian, which has still

00:43:16   not been released. But you know, Journey is an example. Journey is not available on any

00:43:20   other platform. I would buy a PS3 just to play Journey. Journey could be on any platform,

00:43:24   it doesn't use any unique features, it's like analog stick and buttons, it's not like

00:43:27   you need the Kinect board, it's not like you need a second screen. It's a very straightforward

00:43:31   game, it could be a PC game, hell, it could probably even exist on iOS, god forbid.

00:43:35   but it was only on the PS3, so that's why I bought a PS3. And I continue to think that that's the way

00:43:43   forward for Nintendo is make awesome hardware that people want that third parties are willing

00:43:47   to support that sells in big numbers, and also make your very best games and put them only on

00:43:51   your hardware. That's it. Just simple as that. Nintendo, I don't know, see what the problem is.

00:43:55   You just got to make awesome games and hardware that people love.

00:43:58   [Joey] In order to win, you have to do well, geez.

00:44:00   [Joey] Yeah, I know. Well, I mean, like, people keep talking about structural things, like,

00:44:04   "Oh, they need a different strategy." Even Nintendo itself saying, "You know, we'll have to look at smartphones and do this and do that."

00:44:10   It's like, I don't think that's a winning strategy for Nintendo because I don't think Nintendo can

00:44:15   can do what it does. You know, people keep making this analogy and saying, "Well, it's not apt or whatever,"

00:44:21   but there's enough aspects of it that I think are apt that it's worth revisiting and thinking about. Again,

00:44:25   it's kind of like when Apple was in trouble and they were totally in trouble, like in the 90s, and people were saying, "Apple needs

00:44:30   to get out of the hardware business and just put Mac OS on Windows PCs."

00:44:34   Because what they're doing now is not working.

00:44:37   They're not making hardware that people want to buy.

00:44:39   People kind of like their software.

00:44:40   Why not just put that software on other people's hardware?

00:44:43   And you could argue that had Steve Jobs not returned, Apple would have gone down the tubes

00:44:48   and gone bankrupt and people would have said, "See?

00:44:50   You should have just put macOS on PC hardware.

00:44:53   Your stupid thing of selling it, you know, why did you keep doing that?

00:44:56   Why did you keep keeping your software just to your hardware that nobody wanted?

00:44:59   Why didn't you just put it on generic x86 hardware?"

00:45:03   And now you're out of business.

00:45:04   listen to me. But instead Steve Jobs came back and did the thing that I'm teasingly saying is so easy.

00:45:08   How about you just make computers that people actually want to buy? And then you put your good

00:45:13   software on it, you make that even better too. And then when you have hardware and software that

00:45:16   people want to buy, you can become successful. That's not as simple as that because Apple did

00:45:21   other things as well, but there is a definite analogy in that what Nintendo makes is a

00:45:27   combination of hardware and software that gives a unique experience that is potentially better

00:45:31   than all of its competitors and that's why people buy it. People bought the Wii because

00:45:35   it was crazy waggly remote mixed with some software that made that crazy waggly remote

00:45:39   fun. That's it. All you gotta do is make something that people want to buy. And if you said,

00:45:46   "Okay, well why don't you just make software?" All you gotta do is make software that people

00:45:49   want to buy. How many copies of software does Intender need to sell for iOS to make the

00:45:55   kind of money they make even off of their crappy failing Wii U and their so-so 3DS.

00:46:01   You know, 3DS games are like $30 a pop, Wii U games are like $60 a pop, and they gotta

00:46:08   be making money in the Wii U consoles itself. Nintendo can't come into iOS, put out $60

00:46:14   games and expect, like, I mean, just do the revenue graphs, I'm like, "Well, if I sell

00:46:17   it $1, how many do I have to sell? If I sell it $60, we know how much I'll sell compared

00:46:21   if I sell at $1.

00:46:22   Does Nintendo have to start making freemium games?

00:46:25   It's a whole different market.

00:46:27   Never mind what kind of games could you make on iOS.

00:46:29   And now you're dependent on a different hardware vendor, and you can't innovate gameplay because

00:46:34   you're at the mercy of what kind of hardware Apple wants to put out and how well they're

00:46:37   going to support your games.

00:46:39   And whole category games can't even exist without the physical controllers.

00:46:41   Oh, well, you just sell to people with physical controllers.

00:46:43   Nintendo can make a physical controller.

00:46:45   Now you're selling to a fraction of a fraction of a market.

00:46:48   Anybody willing to buy a physical controller to play Nintendo games on their iOS device

00:46:51   would also be willing to buy a 3DS.

00:46:54   And television game consoles with a controller there, they could just buy a Bluetooth controller

00:46:59   and AirPlay their iOS device and you worry about the lag.

00:47:02   There is no good way out for Nintendo in those areas.

00:47:04   I think Nintendo should pay no attention to the smartphone space because they can't be

00:47:09   a player there.

00:47:10   They're never going to have their own platform.

00:47:11   They're never going to have their own OS.

00:47:13   That becomes the price of doing business.

00:47:15   They're doomed.

00:47:16   For now, it looks like there's still a market for dedicated game consoles.

00:47:19   They should just make one that people want to buy.

00:47:22   Sounds easy.

00:47:23   Yeah.

00:47:24   I don't know why they didn't consult me before they made the Wii U.

00:47:26   I would have told them.

00:47:27   There's a couple of articles like, you know, the hindsight of 2020 articles, kind of like,

00:47:31   I was at a game developer and they showed us the Wii U and I totally knew that they

00:47:34   shouldn't be making this because the hardware was too weak.

00:47:39   You know, it's easy to say that in retrospect, but I mean, they probably would have said

00:47:42   the same thing about the Wii.

00:47:43   A standard definition of game console?

00:47:44   Everyone else go in HD.

00:47:45   doomed, well, they weren't so doomed there. But yeah, I think they could pull that off

00:47:50   a second time and they didn't.

00:47:51   Yeah, I think part of the problem with that is that the Wii was really successful because

00:47:57   of this fad that it introduced.

00:48:00   No, it is totally not a fad. A fad is something that comes and goes quickly and has no lasting

00:48:06   value. Motion control—

00:48:08   I would say that is—what you just said—comes and goes quickly and has no lasting value.

00:48:14   I bet that is the pattern for the majority of Wii owners of how they use their Wii.

00:48:19   It lasted an entire generation. The Wii dominated the entire generation. Motion control is not going

00:48:25   away. Every single modern console has motion control coming out the butt. It's like saying,

00:48:31   "Well, the Macintosh," because the Macintosh lost the--

00:48:33   That sounds uncomfortable.

00:48:35   The Macintosh lost to Windows because that GUI thing was just a fad. And yeah,

00:48:39   now every modern computer has a GUI, but they're not Macintosh, so I guess that whole GUI thing was

00:48:42   a fad. Motion control was not a fad.

00:48:44   Well, that's not a fair assessment. I think because, you know, stuff like a GUI is, you

00:48:52   use it and then you keep using it and it keeps being awesome. Whereas the Wii, I bet, almost

00:48:58   everyone I've ever heard from who has a Wii has said that they had the same problem where

00:49:03   they got it, they played it, they played the crap out of it for like, you know, a couple

00:49:07   of weeks or months, and then they never turn it on again, and then it eventually goes in

00:49:12   in the closet and then it eventually goes away.

00:49:13   - Like a computer, it needs software.

00:49:15   So if you got a Macintosh and then people just stopped

00:49:17   making applications for it and Doom wasn't out for the Mac

00:49:19   and like all these other programs you wanted to play

00:49:21   weren't out for the Mac, you're just like,

00:49:23   well, I had a Mac and I used it a lot,

00:49:24   but then like I'd played the few games that I had

00:49:28   and I'd used the software I had,

00:49:29   but all the new applications were coming out for Windows.

00:49:32   So I put the Mac in the closet and I got a Windows machine

00:49:34   and I used their GUI apps.

00:49:35   Like it's a platform, you do need software

00:49:37   to be released for it.

00:49:38   And making it standard definition didn't help.

00:49:40   And Nintendo's relationship with third parties didn't help.

00:49:43   And eventually the only thing available on the Wii

00:49:44   were terrible crappy shovelware ports

00:49:47   of like ancient PC games or last gen console games.

00:49:51   And all the new titles that people wanted to play

00:49:53   weren't available for the Wii at all.

00:49:54   So what are you gonna do?

00:49:55   Keep playing Wii Sports for eight years?

00:49:56   Of course you're not gonna.

00:49:57   Of course it's gonna go into the closet.

00:49:58   It's a platform, right?

00:50:00   But you can't say that the motion control was a fad

00:50:03   and it went away and that's why.

00:50:04   It's because no one made new games for it.

00:50:06   No one made new exciting popular games for it.

00:50:08   where everyone else wanted to play, like Mass Effect and the new Halo games, and even in

00:50:13   the exclusive titles, you know, multiplayer, Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare,

00:50:18   like all these games came out, they're available for PC, 360, and PS3. PC, 360, or PS3. Never

00:50:24   the Wii, because the Wii can't play because it was too weak, it just aged out, and no

00:50:28   one made new software for it.

00:50:30   So what you're saying is I was right.

00:50:32   No, it's not that the motion control was a fad, you're saying like, oh, but--

00:50:35   I didn't say the motion control was a fad, I said the Wii was a fad.

00:50:38   The Wii is not a fan.

00:50:40   The Wii was just a console that didn't have good third-party support.

00:50:42   The GameCube was similar.

00:50:43   As the GameCube got older, third-party games came out for the other platforms and not for

00:50:48   the GameCube.

00:50:49   Nintendo was really bad about third-party support because it's caught between, "Well,

00:50:53   we can support our own platform with our first-party games," and, "Well, we kind of want third-party

00:50:57   games to round out the platform, but we don't really care if those guys make any money."

00:51:00   And then people are like, "Well, screw you.

00:51:01   We're not going to make games for your platform anymore unless you sell in huge numbers."

00:51:05   Even when they sold huge numbers, all they did was attract the vultures to say, "Well,

00:51:08   I'll make a stupid tying game for my movie and sell a Wii version just to get some free

00:51:12   cash because there's so many Wiis out there in the world."

00:51:15   And then people would buy the crappy movie tying game for the Wii, and the kids would

00:51:18   play it and say, "This sucks."

00:51:19   And it was like the 2600, the Atari, where eventually everybody was making 2600 games,

00:51:26   and it just devalued the entire concept.

00:51:28   So the Wii as a product was a good idea and a good product.

00:51:33   the relationship with third parties was terrible and they didn't support it and it just fizzled

00:51:37   out. I mean, any console can do that. Like, if any of the other console makers had the

00:51:41   same problem, if they put out hardware that was too weak to play modern games and didn't

00:51:44   have a good relationship with third parties, they would fizzle out and die too. If Nintendo

00:51:48   had simply made a PlayStation 4 with a second screen on it and had Sony or Microsoft level

00:51:54   of intelligence about third party support, then we would be selling like hotcakes. Because

00:51:58   who wouldn't want a PS4 that can play the next Mario and Zelda game? Everybody would.

00:52:01   you have your cake and eat it too. There's no reason you have to choose between those two things,

00:52:05   except for price. But Nintendo has always said, "Well, we want to keep it as cheap as possible,

00:52:11   and we think that'll work great," and it did with the Wii, kind of, but even that ran into

00:52:15   their stupidity about third-party relationships. Well, the reason I brought up this thing inside

00:52:20   of this big fire is because it's always a strategic flaw in business if you don't really recognize

00:52:31   why you have been successful in the past or the present.

00:52:37   Because if you attribute present or past success to the wrong factors, then you'll probably

00:52:43   do the wrong things on your next project in your upcoming direction.

00:52:46   And so I think for Nintendo to say, "Oh, well, the Wii sold really, really well, and therefore

00:52:52   we have to keep doing gimmicks like this."

00:52:56   It's not a gimmick.

00:52:57   Well, hold on.

00:52:58   So this has kind of been Nintendo's MO in the last few generations of consoles, where,

00:53:04   you know, it used to be in the olden days of like 8 and 16 bit, and even the N64, Nintendo

00:53:09   was basically doing the same kinds of things as everyone else, and in some ways they would

00:53:15   do things better. And then they had these awesome games to carry them and to really

00:53:19   be the foundation of their business. The Wii was this new hardware gimmick that, excuse

00:53:26   me, this new hardware method that was very successful in the market, briefly, you know,

00:53:34   at least in that one generation.

00:53:35   For eight years, yeah, briefly for eight years.

00:53:37   Well, okay, regardless, it was very successful and it had this new hardware thing, this new

00:53:43   kind of thing. The DS had these two screens. That was very successful, right? But is the

00:53:50   reason it was very successful because it had two screens or because Nintendo made really

00:53:54   good games and they happen to make the best portable game system and it happened to have

00:53:58   two screens. You're right that they're misattributing things but it's not that

00:54:01   misattribution because the Wii sold and the Amazing Numbers did because it had a novel input

00:54:06   method, right? Their problem, here's the Nintendo's problem, is they competed with Sony and the

00:54:13   original PlayStation 1 and Nintendo 64, that was kind of where the turning point was for them.

00:54:17   And a little bit of the SNES as well. And they didn't do as well as they thought they should.

00:54:21   They said, "We have a great product.

00:54:23   We have great games.

00:54:25   Why are we losing to Sony, this newcomer into the market?

00:54:28   Why are we having trouble with Sega and their Genesis and stuff like that?

00:54:32   We should be crushing them.

00:54:33   We're Nintendo.

00:54:34   We should do great."

00:54:35   And the GameCube really brought that to a head because the GameCube is just an amazing

00:54:39   piece of hardware.

00:54:41   It was the best console of that generation hardware-wise.

00:54:44   And they're like, "We should really be killing these guys.

00:54:47   We made this thing and we came in last place.

00:54:50   Why?

00:54:51   people want to buy our stuff?

00:54:52   Aren't our games good?

00:54:54   And so when the Wii came around, they're like,

00:54:56   we keep failing, we need to do something different.

00:54:58   And they look back at why they had failed and they said,

00:55:01   I think we failed because we're not giving people

00:55:03   something different.

00:55:04   We're just trying to make the same thing as everyone else.

00:55:06   And they said, here's what we can do,

00:55:08   but we'll make something different.

00:55:09   How about we use motion control?

00:55:11   And they were actually thinking about motion control

00:55:12   for the GameCube as well.

00:55:13   We'll do motion control.

00:55:13   And they couldn't figure out why they kept losing.

00:55:16   And they're losing because they're just obstinate

00:55:18   in about third-party relationships with other developers.

00:55:20   Like Sony won because it was nice to third parties

00:55:23   and Nintendo always wanted to screw them.

00:55:24   Because Nintendo said, "We sell our first party games

00:55:26   "and you pay us through the nose

00:55:28   "for the privilege of being on our platform."

00:55:29   And another company came in there and said,

00:55:31   "We won't be such bastards to third parties."

00:55:34   And Nintendo continues to refuse to believe

00:55:36   that that's why everyone is crushing you.

00:55:37   It's not because they make better hardware.

00:55:39   It's sure as hell not because they make

00:55:40   better first party games.

00:55:42   It's because they're not jerks to the third parties.

00:55:44   And Nintendo doesn't wanna hear that.

00:55:46   And unfortunately, the idea that,

00:55:49   here's what the problem was.

00:55:50   problem was we didn't make something that was interesting enough. We're just doing the same

00:55:53   thing as everyone else. It's just something interesting. That worked for them. They said,

00:55:55   "Aha! See, that was it." It wasn't that all that stuff people were saying about us not having a

00:55:59   good relationship with third parties. It was just because we wanted to give people something new.

00:56:01   So when it came time to make the Wii U, they said, "We can do that thing again where we make

00:56:05   something new." And so they made something new, and it is new, and it is interesting. It's just

00:56:09   not as interesting as motion control was coming from a previous world without motion control. And

00:56:14   and they kept having the weak hardware and it fell on its face because

00:56:18   you know they continue not to realize that the reason they keep failing is

00:56:22   because they don't have good third-party resources. Again

00:56:24   if you could buy a Nintendo console and had all the modern games on it, all of the

00:56:28   you know, it had Grand Theft Auto, it had Call of Duty, it had everything, it looked great, it was

00:56:32   competitive with everybody else

00:56:33   any third-party game came out for the next eight years you should be sure it will be on the

00:56:37   new Nintendo console

00:56:38   it was just like the 360 or the PS3 sometimes on the 360, sometimes on the PS3

00:56:43   It's probably on the PC.

00:56:44   Nintendo is not even in that conversation for multiple generations now.

00:56:48   And if they can't be in that conversation, the only people who are going to buy a Nintendo

00:56:51   console are people who just want it for the first-party games.

00:56:54   And they're stupidly limiting themselves.

00:56:56   I almost wonder if there's a parallel to Apple here, in that Apple is getting more and more

00:57:05   anger directed at them by third-party developers.

00:57:10   You know, we've gone through the ratings kerfuffle a thousand times and the review kerfuffle a thousand times and

00:57:18   I was fiddling with

00:57:21   with certificates and provisioning profiles last night for fast text and I wanted to throw myself off the roof of my house and

00:57:27   I'm definitely reaching here, but I

00:57:31   can't help but wonder if

00:57:36   Nintendo and Apple both were were or are in a position where

00:57:41   they had the ability to be smug and to act like the king of the world and

00:57:47   Eventually what we've seen with Nintendo is that

00:57:51   didn't last and the more friendly to third-party developers upstarts came around and ate their lunch and

00:57:59   I'm being overdramatic, but I can't help but wonder if that's the future for Apple if if they don't start

00:58:05   improving things like iTunes Connect, improving things like developer relations, and they

00:58:10   certainly have gotten a heck of a lot better.

00:58:12   Marco, you would know better than any of us how much better it's gotten, but I don't know,

00:58:16   it strikes me as a vaguely parallel path.

00:58:18   Yeah, the difference with Nintendo is that their heyday when they really were the king

00:58:23   was back with the NES.

00:58:24   That was so long ago, and maybe the SNES, and it's just like, it's that carryover.

00:58:28   It's kind of more like Microsoft, where they weren't as dominant as long as Microsoft was,

00:58:33   But they were as dominant as Microsoft for a brief moment in time.

00:58:36   And that's their image of themselves.

00:58:38   And even a change of CEOs, like the change of CEOs, the old guy Yamauchi got pulled back

00:58:43   and like, finally, now we'll get someone who realizes they're not the king of the world

00:58:46   anymore.

00:58:47   And the new guy did the Wii, which looks like, hey, new guy comes in.

00:58:49   It's kind of like the return of a new job.

00:58:51   New guy comes in and suddenly Nintendo is back on top of the console heat.

00:58:54   But again, they were on top.

00:58:56   Like they didn't recognize their previous problems.

00:58:58   They just happened to find something else that would give them a turbo boost above everyone

00:59:02   but they kept all the same old attitudes, like the expectation that you can make a new console

00:59:06   and do it just like the Wii again and think that everything will work out fine because

00:59:11   you'll just be that much more amazing than everyone else. It's like Microsoft thinking that

00:59:16   for so long, "Well, we're Microsoft. When we make a tablet, people will buy it. And when we make a

00:59:20   phone, OS people will buy it. And Windows Phone will soon be the dominant phone platformer. We'll

00:59:23   be in strong second place or whatever." You just get that image in your head of like, "We're

00:59:28   Microsoft. We're the king of everything. Obviously, anything we do is going to be successful."

00:59:32   and it takes repeated failures to get through your corporate head that actually, no, you're

00:59:37   not going to automatically win. You can't do that. You have to know developer tools.

00:59:41   It's more like Apple did it to the other developer tools with PhoneOS. If you look at Apple's

00:59:49   developer tools for writing apps for iOS, yeah, we may complain about them and everything,

00:59:53   but compare it to phone development before the iPhone. Using Xcode to write applications for iOS

01:00:00   is so far beyond using whatever SDK to write Nokia apps or whatever. It's like night and

01:00:07   day. And so no wonder suddenly Apple has tons of third-party support for applications and

01:00:12   every other phone platform just goes away. At this point, Nintendo's not that bad compared

01:00:17   to their competitors, but Nintendo's strength is not making developer tools or middleware

01:00:23   or other things. Not that it's really Sony's or Microsoft's strength either, but Sony and

01:00:26   Microsoft have gotten better at it faster than Nintendo. Same thing with online. Xbox

01:00:30   Live and the PlayStation Network, again, they're not great at it, but Nintendo was terrible.

01:00:35   And so it's kind of like, Nintendo was the king a long time ago, and it does everything

01:00:39   worse than all of its competitors now except make fun games. And that stuff is coming home

01:00:44   to roost.

01:00:45   Do you think some part of it also is, you know, back in the 8 and 16 bit era, I mean

01:00:52   actually even 32/64 era, the first one, that back then the best games for a platform, both

01:01:03   the best critically acclaimed ones and the ones that would sell the most, were usually

01:01:07   first party games by the platform vendor. And that is no longer the case these days

01:01:12   as far as I know, it seems like these days the big blockbuster games are made by third

01:01:16   parties who have really no reason, unless they have some kind of big pricey business

01:01:20   deal, they really have no reason to limit themselves to just one of the consoles. And

01:01:24   so it becomes, you know, like if you want to play the latest Call of Duty or the latest

01:01:28   Madden Football you can do it on anything. And it's in their best interest to put out

01:01:32   the games for all the consoles and so it's a lot less of an advantage to have the strong

01:01:38   first-party library as it used to be because most of the games people are buying and getting excited about are available on all the platforms

01:01:44   It's so expensive now to make a triple-a title that

01:01:47   People can't afford to have exclusives like if you're going if you're going to be EA or something

01:01:52   You're gonna make Madden and someone wants you to make it exclusive to their platform

01:01:56   He's gonna be like do you realize how much money you'd have to pass to do that?

01:01:59   Because in a sort of even horse race between one, you know between two or three competitors

01:02:05   It's like, are you going to pay for all the copies that we could have sold on the Xbox?

01:02:09   You know, if Sony wants it to be exclusive?

01:02:12   Pick any game like that.

01:02:14   You can't afford to pay them.

01:02:15   That's why these people buy studios, because Microsoft buys Bungie.

01:02:18   Well, now we don't have to pay you to make Halo exclusive to the Xbox.

01:02:21   We bought your whole company.

01:02:22   Make it for the Xbox only, right?

01:02:24   And even that Bungie found a way to wriggle its way out so its next game could be multiplatform.

01:02:28   It's just so expensive.

01:02:30   The only people who can afford to make a game exclusive to a platform are like gaming studios

01:02:35   that are going down the tubes and need tons of money and they'll take whatever cash payout

01:02:39   they can to go exclusive, or first parties.

01:02:43   I don't know if there was ever a heyday where the first party games are always the best.

01:02:45   I guess maybe in the NES days, Nintendo's first party games have always been among the

01:02:51   best on any platform anywhere, so that's an easy one.

01:02:54   Sega, I guess they had Sonic in the Genesis days, but was that really the best games?

01:02:59   the only one who's been so dumb. Sega had a lot of, I was a Sega guy back then, they had a lot of

01:03:03   really good games in the 8 and 16-bit era. Even, I would even say for the Saturn, you know, which

01:03:08   didn't sell well. Well, yeah, that was, they were the only games for the Saturn. Right, yeah, that's

01:03:12   true. Even for that generation, you know, I think Sega had the best Saturn games, I think Nintendo

01:03:16   had by far the best N64 games. PlayStation changed that though, like that was their deal.

01:03:21   Like, think of the first-party PlayStation games like Crash Bandicoot, you know. Well,

01:03:25   Well, the first-- the PS1 games really were not that great.

01:03:29   The PS1 mainly succeeded because the Saturn was a bomb.

01:03:32   I mean, the Saturn kind of made space for it, and the N64 wasn't out yet.

01:03:38   And it used cartridges when it came out.

01:03:40   Right.

01:03:41   Although, I will stand by that being a good decision, actually.

01:03:44   Looking back at the load times and everything, like--

01:03:47   Well, it was a really bad decision for Nintendo.

01:03:50   It had advantages, but like, the reason Nintendo did it was because A, they're stubborn, and

01:03:54   be they, people would pay Nintendo to make their cartridges. If you wanted to make a

01:03:58   game for N64, Nintendo, like they did with the other stuff, you'd have to pay Nintendo

01:04:03   to make your cartridges for you. And Nintendo charged profit on that. It was like free money.

01:04:08   Like, why would we let you make a 10 cent CD when we can charge you for these cartridges?

01:04:13   Right. But, you know, my point is that in this new era of most of the big, popular games

01:04:20   are multi-platform. Nintendo will always lose that battle because they're not in

01:04:25   the cutting-edge hardware and ecosystem game. Like, they're not in that game at

01:04:28   all and so they're going to keep losing. But they could be though, like, the GameCube

01:04:32   proves that they could be because the GameCube, hardware-wise, was more than a

01:04:37   match for its competitors. Like, there's no reason that they can't be because

01:04:40   they don't make, you know, they pay ATI and IBM or whoever makes, you know, they

01:04:44   like, look at the PS4 or the Xbox One. Is it AMD? They both have AMD CPUs with, you

01:04:49   know, it's like, they could, Nintendo can go to the same vendors, just like they did

01:04:53   with the GameCube. You know, the GameCube is even more extreme because IBM and ATI

01:04:57   were also in the Xbox 360, so it was like, you know, it was right there. Like,

01:05:03   we're all using the same vendors, you don't have to make this stuff yourself.

01:05:06   They just chose not to compete in that. It's not, there's not something

01:05:09   structural about Nintendo that prevents them from making a console that can host

01:05:13   all the modern games. It's a business choice. Well, I don't know, it's because it

01:05:17   isn't just about the hardware anywhere. Now it's about these online services, integration

01:05:21   with cable boxes and stuff like that. It's all these things that Nintendo really has

01:05:25   never shown any interest in doing.

01:05:28   Sony is terrible at that too, and they've been slowly like... Microsoft is the only

01:05:31   company that knew anything about online, because they're a PC company, they know about platforms,

01:05:36   they know about networking, stuff like that. Sony didn't know anything about that. Sony's

01:05:38   stuff sucked, and they slowly learned, and Nintendo's stuff has always sucked, continues

01:05:43   to suck. It sucks slightly more than Sony. But it's not outside. I think this is something

01:05:49   that Nintendo can do. Nintendo can make online games they have. Nintendo can make social lobby

01:05:55   type things. They have done that. They just do it badly. Sony also does it badly. Microsoft does it

01:06:00   less badly. But there's nobody who's like... I guess maybe Microsoft is out ahead of both of

01:06:04   the other ones. But Sony's pretty crappy at that too. So the bar is low. I feel like they could

01:06:09   crossed that hurdle. And again, now it may be a little bit too late, but they had so many years.

01:06:14   Xbox Live came out so many years ago. Nintendo, if they got their head out of the butt, would have

01:06:18   said, "All right, we suck at this now. Let's get good at it slowly over many years." This was what

01:06:23   Sony did, and Sony is still terrible at it. They lost all those passwords, and their service is not

01:06:27   as good as Xbox Live. But when the PS4 came out, it has integration with streaming and the headset

01:06:33   support and stuff. I think they learned it's possible. Nintendo is just a much slower learner,

01:06:38   and or too stubborn or whatever but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility.

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01:08:45   All right, what else do we want to talk about?

01:08:48   Should we breach the net neutrality topic?

01:08:50   Because this could go for hours.

01:08:52   Even I have a lot to say about this.

01:08:55   There's a lot there.

01:08:56   I think any loss of net neutrality is really bad and really, frankly, a

01:09:01   likely disaster for our industry and many others. But I legally, I don't know enough

01:09:06   about what just happened. I don't have a good legal understanding of it and I haven't done

01:09:10   all the reading on it. I still have to read New Life Patel's article on it. So I don't

01:09:16   really have a lot to say on that right now.

01:09:17   Well, I just wanted to briefly add, and then John, I'll ask for your two cents. Somebody

01:09:22   tweeted, and I'll put a link in the show notes and in the chat, and this may not be the original

01:09:28   instance of it, but somebody tweeted a really interesting graphic that basically said,

01:09:33   "Hey, if you want really fast Netflix, that's an additional $10 a month, and if you want really

01:09:39   fast blah blah blah, that's an additional $15 a month." And it was extremely interesting and

01:09:45   a really ominous sign of what net neutrality could mean, or the loss of net neutrality could

01:09:52   mean for the future. And it was a really clever way to hammer it home that if not all traffic is

01:09:57   is created equal, that could lead to some very bad things. And it's very frightening.

01:10:02   And just like you said, Marco, it's very, very potentially dangerous for the industry.

01:10:06   Also I thought the Fred Wilson post was really good too. Fred Wilson is, in case you don't

01:10:10   know him, he's a big investor. I actually know him, he's a really nice guy. And his

01:10:14   blog is avc.com because he is a VC. Anyway, he had this great post on it, basically just

01:10:21   like these scenarios of these theoretical future investor meetings where he's meeting

01:10:26   some young startup founder who wants to get some funding and they're describing like,

01:10:32   "Oh, well, I had this great idea for this new music startup where this is like a new

01:10:36   streaming service. It's going to have these differences from other streaming services."

01:10:39   And he's like, "Sorry, we can't take that because Apple and RDO and Spotify and Beats

01:10:45   have all paid all the telcos to get their transfer to not count towards your data allotment."

01:10:50   and you won't have that power or money,

01:10:52   so no one's gonna buy your service

01:10:55   because it's gonna count against their data,

01:10:56   so we're not gonna fund you.

01:10:58   And that's gonna happen, that kind of thing where

01:11:01   it's not gonna affect everything.

01:11:03   If you're running text and transmitting text all around,

01:11:06   it's probably not gonna be big enough to matter

01:11:08   or get throttled like that, but you don't know.

01:11:10   And there's all these other,

01:11:13   it dramatically affects any kind of large transfers.

01:11:16   Definitely would affect podcasts, no question about it.

01:11:18   And so that hits home for me, certainly.

01:11:21   And it showed it for you if you're listening.

01:11:23   And so there's that aspect.

01:11:25   There's also, one thing I liked a lot

01:11:27   was Matt Drance's piece on Apple outsider,

01:11:32   where he also, not only does he link

01:11:33   to all these other good ones, but he also says,

01:11:35   there's also a problem of privacy,

01:11:37   where now, yeah, right now your ISP

01:11:40   can look at everything passing through and where it's going,

01:11:43   but there's not really much of a reason for them to.

01:11:45   There's no business case for it,

01:11:46   so they probably aren't and generally there's not, you know, they don't really have motivation

01:11:51   to do that. But with this, they would have to look at everything you're doing and they

01:11:56   would have business reasons to do it. And so there's massive privacy implications for

01:11:59   it as well. And so there's all these problems with, you know, what a lack of net neutrality

01:12:06   will cause. And, you know, the arguments about free markets and everything else and, you

01:12:14   regulations, benefits in some cases, don't really apply because there's not a lot of

01:12:19   competition in most broadband markets. And mobile, the rules are different. And again,

01:12:25   I don't know if I'm about to really talk at length, but the rules are different for mobile

01:12:28   networks. And you could look at that and say, well, mobile is competition for the broadband,

01:12:33   which it is. But, you know, as long as mobile data caps can be burned up with like watching

01:12:40   Netflix for an hour. I don't think we're in the same league here. And so, you know, home

01:12:45   broadband still has a big role for a lot of people. And as the cable companies and phone

01:12:51   companies and these home broadband companies, as they add things like phone service to them

01:12:56   and their own on-demand video, and as people start cutting cable service to say, "Oh, well,

01:13:02   I don't need to pay for your TV service because I just buy everything online," those ISPs

01:13:06   are going to have more and more really big business reasons to do evil crap like this,

01:13:12   to do things like throttle Netflix, throttle Skype, you know, all these, all these, you

01:13:17   know, I mean look at what happened with Vonage forever ago, that was one of these first cases.

01:13:22   They're going to have reasons to do all this stuff, big business reasons, and so you know

01:13:25   they're going to do it. It's not like they have morals and are sitting around saying,

01:13:28   "Oh yeah, you know, oh yeah, we're Verizon, we're Comcast, we're just going to be nice

01:13:32   to our customers." No, they're going to screw you at every chance you possibly get. I mean,

01:13:36   I can't become on these companies the they they have in their DNA to be

01:13:40   complete everybody that's every company that that's how companies work that's

01:13:44   you know that's the if there's a business case to do some big thing

01:13:46   they're gonna do it

01:13:48   and so it would be foolish to think

01:13:51   that if these companies were permitted to do stuff like this that they wouldn't

01:13:53   do it of course they're gonna do it

01:13:55   and where you gonna turn there's nowhere to go there's

01:13:58   chances are you know most people have

01:14:01   at most

01:14:02   to options for their broadband at home usually usually you can choose between

01:14:06   one cable company and one D-cell company in the US. And I think in the rest of the world,

01:14:10   it's some places are better, some places are worse. I think overall it's not that much better

01:14:14   on average. It might even be worse. Yeah, generally speaking, you have between one and two broadband

01:14:21   companies to choose from in the US. And so, you know, if... and in most places, those one or two

01:14:28   are like the same one or two. Like there's not that many ISPs. There's like five or six big ones

01:14:32   in the whole country maybe. And so it doesn't take much. Like if Comcast or Verizon say,

01:14:38   "Okay, we're not doing this thing," that's going to affect like a quarter of the country

01:14:43   or something. It's a big number. And so this is a big deal and we need regulation.

01:14:51   The role of government regulation is where the market can't do the right thing for whatever

01:14:57   a reason, where it's dysfunctional or impossible or completely impractical for the market to

01:15:04   do the things that are best for the people, best for the overall industry.

01:15:09   That's when government regulation is most needed.

01:15:14   And that's definitely the case with broadband.

01:15:16   Broadband, there is no competition, and we need the government regulation, and it's

01:15:20   not happening, and that's really scary.

01:15:21   JE: Yeah, the problem with net neutrality—and I've experienced this problem myself with

01:15:26   trying to explain it to my mother and for all the people who are going to complain that I always use

01:15:30   my mother as an example and that's insulting because who's to say that mothers don't know

01:15:34   stuff about technology. I'm using my mother example in this case and in many other cases because

01:15:38   she's the one of my parents who is most interested in and knowledgeable about technology. So she's the

01:15:43   one who's actually willing to entertain the discussion with me about net neutrality,

01:15:47   not because she's less competent. So let's get the mother as a it's it's not a hypothetical this is

01:15:52   my actual mother and I actually explained to her and that's the reason I explained it to her and

01:15:55   and not my father because my father doesn't care, doesn't know about it, doesn't give

01:15:59   a crap about this.

01:16:00   Anyway, I try to explain net neutrality to her, and it's difficult.

01:16:03   That image that Casey was talking about showed the big price sheet of like, "So you want

01:16:08   internet access?

01:16:09   Well, for an extra five bucks you get Netflix, or ten bucks."

01:16:11   My impression was that you get faster Netflix.

01:16:13   It's like, "Oh, so you want Netflix with your internet?

01:16:15   That'll be five extra dollars.

01:16:16   Oh, so you want to have HBO go with it?

01:16:19   That'll be ten extra dollars.

01:16:20   Oh, you want to go on Facebook?

01:16:21   That'll be twelve extra dollars."

01:16:23   It's made to look just like it does when you buy cable now.

01:16:25   You want cable TV?

01:16:26   Okay, well here's the base price.

01:16:27   If you want ESPN, it'll be this price, and if you want HBO, it's part of our premium

01:16:30   package.

01:16:31   That's $12.

01:16:32   It's like buying a BMW.

01:16:33   You know, you got to get the whole other package.

01:16:35   The problem with that image, as terrifying as it is to nerds, is that to a regular person,

01:16:40   you're like, "Oh, that's already how I buy TV, and that's not that bad."

01:16:42   We're like, "No, it's terrible when you buy TV.

01:16:44   Don't you understand?"

01:16:45   And with the television, it's terrible in some ways, but on the other hand, it also

01:16:49   subsidizes a lot of channels, so there are good things about bundling and bad things,

01:16:53   But in general, if you go from a situation,

01:16:56   like it's different because those are services

01:16:58   that are being bundled together in a package

01:17:01   of things that you have to pay for

01:17:02   and all those things you have to pay for.

01:17:03   This is basically taking a wire and saying,

01:17:06   we're only gonna let certain,

01:17:07   it's a negative instead of a positive.

01:17:09   We're only gonna let certain things through on it.

01:17:10   Oh, so you want us to let Netflix traffic in?

01:17:12   Pay us this amount of money,

01:17:13   and now we'll let Netflix traffic go through your house.

01:17:15   That's not an internet service provider anymore.

01:17:17   I don't know what that is,

01:17:18   but that's not someone providing you access to the internet.

01:17:21   someone preventing you from having access to the internet to varying degrees based on

01:17:25   how much you're going to pay them or how much they're going to pay the companies or whatever.

01:17:29   The problem with that image, I think, is it looks too familiar to people, and it won't

01:17:32   be terrifying to people because they won't realize the implications.

01:17:35   And this is the difficulty I have trying to explain net neutrality to my mother or to

01:17:39   anyone else, is that it's very difficult to impart on them the thing that we all know

01:17:44   in our gut, that this is the end of the internet as we know it.

01:17:47   But if you don't have an interconnected network of computers that can all talk to each other,

01:17:52   but instead have an interconnected series of toll booths that you have to pay money

01:17:56   for for information to get one person to the other, that defeats the entire purpose of

01:17:59   the internet.

01:18:00   And ISPs don't want to be dumb pipes, and we all want them to be dumb pipes.

01:18:04   And that's the constant tension that's there between us and them.

01:18:07   And the role of government regulation, like in any free market type system, it's not like

01:18:14   companies can't do the right thing. The incentives are aligned for companies to maximize their profits.

01:18:21   And if those are the only incentives in the system, then yeah, the companies will go off and

01:18:26   do those things that will cause incredible damage in the long run because that will make them the

01:18:31   most profits. They'll become monopolies, we have anti-monopoly laws. And if they will end net

01:18:37   neutrality because it will make them more money, we need a counterbalance to that. And the

01:18:40   counterbalance can't be other private market companies. Like that's something someone said

01:18:43   me on Twitter. Well, if ISPs do this, won't other net neutral ISPs crop up to compete with them?

01:18:50   That's an interesting fantasy scenario. But unfortunately, with the exception of wireless,

01:18:55   all of the wires and fiber optic cables going to people's houses is the barrier to entry to

01:19:01   saying, "Okay, well, Comcast is terrible and Verizon is terrible, and they're all net neutral

01:19:05   anymore. I'm going to start my own ISP. Great. Well, let me know when you run wires to everybody's

01:19:09   house in the United States. That's a significant barrier to entry. Or even for wireless, let

01:19:16   me know when you paid for all the spectrum you plan to use. And again, the regulations

01:19:19   are different about divvying up spectrum between people and common carrier stuff. And the same

01:19:23   thing with the wires. There's some regulations in this area already. But you can't rely on

01:19:27   the private market not to totally remove net neutrality, because it will make them more

01:19:33   money. And if there are companies that are trying to make more money, that are not trying

01:19:36   be magnanimous or advanced civilization. They're trying to make more profit. So there needs to be

01:19:41   a counterbalance to that. And that's why all the nerds are hoping the government will fulfill its

01:19:45   role as being a counterbalance to private industry to prevent private industry from doing what it

01:19:50   does. Like those machines are aligned in a certain way to make money. And we should let them run off

01:19:55   and do that right up to the point where they start causing damage and there needs to be a

01:19:58   counterbalance. And it's just, it's too esoteric and weird and nerdy. And even if it slowly happens,

01:20:06   It would just happen in pieces one at a time, and everyone who it was happening to would

01:20:10   just simply accept it as the way things are until two generations from now, the internet

01:20:14   could be dead as we know it, and no one would care, and no one would ever have put up a

01:20:17   fuss.

01:20:18   It's one of those type of things, like a slow-moving type of disaster, where you have to be a little

01:20:23   bit chicken little and say the sky is falling to get people's attention.

01:20:25   Otherwise, this terrible thing will slowly happen to them, and they'll accept it.

01:20:31   They won't even wake up one day and be in a dystopia.

01:20:33   They'll just be like, "Well, it's just the way things are.

01:20:35   the way things have always been, oh well.

01:20:37   You know, I'm glad we don't have much to say about this.

01:20:40   Yeah, we'll have to talk about it some other time.

01:20:42   Well, we weren't talking about the events.

01:20:44   We were just talking about net neutrality in general as a concept.

01:20:46   And that, I think, is enough.

01:20:48   Instead of talking about what happened in this court case or how is the battle going

01:20:52   for net neutrality, just the concept of net neutrality, the concept that one computer

01:20:56   could talk to another computer and send data through it, and they all pay for internet

01:21:00   access to get access to the internet and it's undifferentiated and the ones and zeros flow

01:21:06   through the tubes.

01:21:08   That doesn't sound like much, but if you take that away and turn it into some crazy toll

01:21:12   booth thing, it just destroys the whole endeavor.

01:21:14   It destroys every part of it.

01:21:16   And even as someone who doesn't directly make my living on the internet in the same way

01:21:22   that say Marco does, obviously I still indirectly make my living on the internet because the

01:21:27   consulting that I do in my day job is all web-based.

01:21:31   And even despite being slightly removed from all this, it absolutely scares me.

01:21:37   It petrifies me, the thought of losing net neutrality.

01:21:41   And net neutrality was the great equalizer that, you know, there's no reason that Marco

01:21:47   couldn't make a read later service or that Marco and David couldn't make a new blogging

01:21:52   engine because they had the same right to the same pipes as everyone else did.

01:21:57   And to take that away, that's scary.

01:22:00   You know, we're in such a wonderful time right now where anyone in a—well, I guess

01:22:06   you could argue anyone in the garage could always do something incredible, but it's

01:22:10   so much easier now.

01:22:11   I mean, hey, look at the three of us.

01:22:12   Three people in three, you know, converted bedrooms in three houses across the eastern

01:22:17   United States are able to reach tens of thousands of people on a weekly basis, and that's

01:22:22   really powerful and really incredible and we're very lucky for that. The three of

01:22:25   us most especially, but I like to thank all of our listeners as well. And just like Marco

01:22:31   alluded to earlier, you know, imagine if we had to subsidize, the three of us had to subsidize

01:22:37   getting our podcast to our listeners. You think ads are bad now, my goodness, the show

01:22:41   would be 80% ads if that were the case.

01:22:43   Right. Well, and the funny thing is like we already pay for that. Like the cable companies

01:22:49   and stuff wanting payments from like Verizon and Google and Apple and Netflix and stuff

01:22:55   like that. Google and Apple and Netflix are already paying to upload that data. They're

01:23:01   already paying for their data centers to have connectivity to all the big backbones. And

01:23:06   we already pay for the bandwidth for this show. And thank God Libsyn is unlimited because

01:23:11   if Libsyn wasn't unlimited, this show would cost like $1,000 a month in bandwidth alone.

01:23:16   And we already pay for that. Everyone already pays for their upstream bandwidth. And the

01:23:20   cable companies don't get that money directly. They are offering access to these big backbones.

01:23:27   And I don't, unfortunately, know the details of how all of that works and the way peering

01:23:31   agreements work and who pays who and all the cases and everything. But they didn't build

01:23:35   that infrastructure. They have parts of it. They have their own infrastructure to their

01:23:38   home. But they are offering you this product that's out there that everyone else is already

01:23:43   paying to be into, and they want money too. They want a cut too, even though no one's ever had to

01:23:49   pay for that before, to get to that final, that last mile. The thing is, data is not water. There's

01:23:55   not a volume of water going through pipes. Like, well, a certain volume of water goes through our

01:24:00   pipes, and they wear down our pipes, and we have maintenance for our valves in the pipes. And there

01:24:03   is telecom equipment that you have to have, but at a certain point, once you have the equipment set

01:24:09   up, the amount of data going through it, if it's anything less than 100% or 90% of the capacity,

01:24:13   where if you're using 1% of the capacity of the hardware, that's just wasted. It's not as if,

01:24:17   well, there'll be less wear and tear on our routers now that there's less traffic on them.

01:24:21   I guess someone's going to write it and say, well, the heat generated by a fully-stressed

01:24:24   restaurant. You know what I mean? But it's not the same as cars going over roads. Cars destroy

01:24:31   roads as they go over them, right? And it's not water through a pipe. At a certain point,

01:24:38   the marginal cost of putting extra data, which is why they have these peering agreements. It's like,

01:24:42   well, otherwise this bandwidth would just be idle, so I'll pay you and you'll pay me and it'll all

01:24:47   work out. And there's all this strange kind of make-believe money changing hands or peering

01:24:52   agreements just to make the entire internet work, because the data has to change hands,

01:24:55   it has to go from one place to the other, and everyone is always jockeying for a position of

01:24:58   who can make a little bit more money off of this. But in the end, what we just want it to be is the

01:25:03   internet, this conceptual thing, kind of like iCloud, that is just a giant umbrella term for

01:25:08   for these huge networks of computers and hardware and wires and software that is run by a giant

01:25:13   conglomeration of people all trying to make this one big sort of emergent living entity

01:25:17   called the internet work where any computer can talk to any other computer if it has its

01:25:20   IP address.

01:25:21   IPv6 will be a topic for another show.

01:25:24   And that's the system we're trying to preserve here.

01:25:27   And at every turn, companies are trying to say, "Yeah, but we can make more money if

01:25:32   X, Y, and Z."

01:25:33   And it's terrible.

01:25:34   And the worst argument I hear about this is the free market thing.

01:25:37   regulation is bad, you're stifling competition and blah, blah, blah. Marco talked about it before.

01:25:43   The net neutral internet has been the largest driver of free market capitalism and economic

01:25:51   growth that the world has ever seen. Two guys start Tumblr and it makes how many, what is it,

01:25:57   how many billion dollars did Yahoo pay for it or whatever? If you don't have a net neutral internet

01:26:02   and can't let two guys, like, it is, if you take that away and say, well, now only the big guys

01:26:07   can, like, you have destroyed so much more of the economy, like, yes, you made the ISPs get richer,

01:26:12   the price has been, like, a huge amount of innovation and market value that you've totally

01:26:18   destroyed by not making it easy to enter this market. Like, it's so incredibly short-sighted

01:26:23   for people to say government regulation is always bad, free market is better, because, you know,

01:26:27   You know, the Internet is the free market.

01:26:29   It is the thing that has enabled more businesses to spring into existence, to add value to

01:26:34   the economy, to employ people than any other invention in the entire world.

01:26:38   And to destroy that just so ISPs can make more money, it's so insane.

01:26:42   And again, this entire concept and all this is so hard to explain to people who don't

01:26:46   know or care about it, which is why I fear every day that people never have sane laws

01:26:50   in this area, because no one understands the issues involved.

01:26:54   No lawmakers do.

01:26:55   If you look at the history of actions taken by the FCC in the last 15, 20 years,

01:27:02   there's not a lot of things in there that give you a lot of confidence that they're going to do the right thing here.

01:27:06   No. It's terrible. It's too nuanced and esoteric.

01:27:13   And even when I say like Lawrence Lessig up there and other people who are trying to explain it,

01:27:17   they do such a good job explaining it. I'm like, "Surely now you must understand it. He did such a good job explaining that."

01:27:22   that and like nope still don't get it I need campaign donations from Comcast I'm

01:27:27   screwing everybody it's miserable well with that let's wrap it up for the week

01:27:33   thanks a lot to our three sponsors lynda.com harvest and fracture and we will

01:27:39   see you next week

01:27:42   now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:27:50   Oh it was accidental.

01:27:52   John didn't do any research.

01:27:55   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:27:58   Cause it was accidental.

01:28:00   It was accidental.

01:28:03   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

01:28:08   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:28:14   at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-E-N-T, Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A,

01:28:29   [music]

01:28:36   So I ended us on a sour note. Sorry about that.

01:28:47   Any discussion of technology and politics is going to be sad.

01:28:51   Yeah, that's true.

01:28:53   Oh, it's so painful.

01:28:55   You want to talk about the iPad Pro at all?

01:28:57   with the after show. Save that for another show, because I think it's worth being an

01:29:01   actual topic. Well, unfortunately, the prompt kind of beat us to it, and they did a better

01:29:03   job of it. Did you hear Federico Vatici's discussion about this with, I think it was

01:29:10   just Mike that week, on the prompt, like, I think last week or two weeks ago. I think

01:29:15   it was last week. I'm still in the middle of the giant iPhone keynote episode. That's

01:29:19   good. I'm kind of mad that we didn't think of doing that, you know? Oh, I know, me too.

01:29:24   - So good.

01:29:25   - I don't think I'd want to record that episode,

01:29:26   but I'll listen to it.

01:29:28   - Exactly, well, that's one of those things,

01:29:29   like when they put that out there,

01:29:32   I saw that in my list, and I was skeptical.

01:29:36   I was like, man, I gotta listen to a two hour plus podcast.

01:29:40   Come on, I heard the iPhone keynote.

01:29:42   You know, I watched it.

01:29:44   Like, I don't need to watch this or listen to this.

01:29:46   And I listened to it, and it was so good.

01:29:48   And when it ended, I was like, oh, that's it?

01:29:51   Like, that's when you know that you don't need

01:29:53   worry about cutting your show any shorter. Like, if people are going to listen to it

01:29:56   and say, "Wow, that's, like, I'm kind of upset there's not more of that," even after,

01:30:01   you know, two hours and ten minutes or whatever it was, that's really good. And they, they

01:30:05   hit it out of the park with that. That was so good.

01:30:06   Yeah, the show was good in gen--or really good in general, but God, that episode was

01:30:10   so annoyingly good, and I'm really jealous, and I'm bitter it wasn't us.

01:30:13   Well, 'cause what was good about it was that they didn't just go through the Apple keynote

01:30:17   and say, "Oh, here's what happened, then this happened." They, they gave really good context

01:30:22   of what the situation was at that time

01:30:26   and right before that time,

01:30:27   and why some of these things were so groundbreaking,

01:30:31   and a lot of that stuff I had forgotten about.

01:30:33   You know, like, why some of that stuff was so impressive,

01:30:36   how, you know, how the room reacted to seeing, like,

01:30:40   scrolling a table view for the first time by touch.

01:30:43   Like, that was a big reaction.

01:30:44   And like, you think about it,

01:30:46   why that was a big reaction,

01:30:47   because of what we had before the iPhone,

01:30:51   And it was really good.

01:30:55   The context they provided was very, very good,

01:30:57   and made it extremely listenable, and very interesting,

01:31:01   and very upsetting when it ended.

01:31:03   Even if you've heard the iPhone keynote a million times before,

01:31:06   it's still worth it.

01:31:07   They needed more old people on the show, though,

01:31:09   because a lot of them, their history of watching Apple

01:31:12   had started around the time of the iPhone.

01:31:14   That wasn't Apple's first keynote.

01:31:16   They'd kind of been doing this whole keynote thing for a while

01:31:18   since then.

01:31:19   So as always I wanted an old person like me on the show to say well, you know

01:31:23   Well, they introduced the iMac. It was on a pedestal

01:31:26   G4 Cube came up from the floor

01:31:29   Phil Schiller had to jump onto an airbag. That's real power

01:31:33   Well the reference that none of you will get all right, it's fine

01:31:39   No, I was just started listening to Marco and unprofessional and realizing that realizing the depths of his

01:31:45   his pop culture lack of knowledge

01:31:48   Sorry.

01:31:49   It's all right.

01:31:50   I don't know what Casey's excuse is.

01:31:54   Well, why does Marco have an excuse?

01:31:57   Well, he's unique.

01:31:59   Maybe you have proximity to Marco has prevented you from engaging in the culture of producing

01:32:06   entertainment.

01:32:07   Yeah, I don't know.

01:32:10   I just don't – I feel like I watch a crud-load of TV, and apparently I don't watch any,

01:32:17   I just watched the wrong TV.

01:32:19   - Are you watching NCIS with the senior citizens?

01:32:22   - No, but I did watch CSI for a long time.

01:32:24   - Oh, well, you're getting close.

01:32:25   I was close.

01:32:26   - Enhance. - I'm zooming out.

01:32:28   - Rotate it around, enhance again.

01:32:30   Look, a license plate.

01:32:31   - If Casey was born 20 years early,

01:32:34   he'd be watching "Matlock."

01:32:36   - You're such a jerk, but you're probably right.

01:32:39   - Go back a sec.

01:32:41   So the reason I brought up the prompt and the iPad Pro,

01:32:44   They had a good discussion last week where, you know, Federico Viteix, you brought up

01:32:49   the really good point, because he's like the iPad Pro.

01:32:52   Like he is the iPad Pro user.

01:32:55   He might be the only one.

01:32:56   I don't know.

01:32:57   Maybe him and Dr. Drang.

01:32:58   No, I don't think he even uses one.

01:32:59   Anyway, the reason why -- so the rumors are that Apple is going to make a larger iPad

01:33:04   maybe 12.9 inches-ish, and this will be a, quote, iPad Pro of some sort.

01:33:12   And the rumors are all really confused and inconsistent as to whether this is going to

01:33:16   also be a convertible MacBook Air with a keyboard, you know, an optional keyboard, there's one

01:33:22   that would fold back like a convertible tablet, or whether, you know, whether it would even

01:33:26   run OS X or iOS, whether it will have an Intel or an ARM processor, whether it has an ARM

01:33:30   processor that runs OS X, who knows?

01:33:35   And so the problem with all these rumors is that, and, you know, maybe the OS thing is

01:33:41   is more interesting, but the problem is that the size of the iPad is not really what's

01:33:48   holding it back for most types of quote "pro uses" whatever that means, that's a whole

01:33:54   discussion of what that even might mean. The size is not holding it back. There are uses

01:33:59   of the iPad where people want a bigger, so I was like, I had asked on Twitter a couple

01:34:03   of weeks ago when this rumor first came out, like, you know, what would a bigger iPad even

01:34:08   solve. Who's really asking for that? And the most common responses were either, "Nobody,

01:34:15   I like my Mini," or it was, of course, it was, you know, a bunch of geeks following

01:34:19   me, so it was that, mostly. But it was also, a lot of people who do music production in

01:34:24   particular said they would love a lot more screen space. And there's a few other verticals

01:34:30   like this where more screen space would be nice on the iPad and would be worth the extra

01:34:36   size, but for the most part I certainly don't think it's mass market. And the problem is

01:34:42   that the size of the screen is not holding back pro usage. What's holding back pro usage,

01:34:49   and this is what they were talking about in the prompt, is iOS and the structure and the

01:34:55   restrictions of iOS. And this is not an easy problem to solve. This is, like, the multitasking

01:35:01   system is really extremely rudimentary in iOS and very limited. Document models and

01:35:08   file storage and sharing data between applications, all that stuff is extremely primitive on iOS

01:35:16   and is just so limited. That's really most of the problem. And if you're going to make

01:35:21   a "pro iOS device", iOS itself needs major changes and that's not going to happen quickly

01:35:29   or easily, and many of those changes would actually make iOS worse at its core functions.

01:35:35   And so they probably aren't--like, I'm guessing that this kind of pro iOS is probably not

01:35:39   really happening. And I think the iPad Pro, the Pro Super Compact Mac is the MacBook Air,

01:35:49   or a Super Compact Apple device. I think it's the MacBook Air. I think--and we've answered

01:35:54   about this before, which I got some flack for, but actually in the prompt--it's funny,

01:35:58   On the prompt, Federico was arguing with a point that I didn't make, and he clarified

01:36:04   that at the very beginning, but most listeners, I think, missed that. And so they were telling

01:36:08   me, "Oh, he was ripping you apart on the prompt," and he actually wasn't. He actually

01:36:12   agreed with most of what I said, I think.

01:36:14   But anyway, if you're hitting these massive barriers with the iPad and having to jump

01:36:21   through all these different hoops of bouncing between 10 different apps and these weird

01:36:24   URL schemes that are kind of hacked together and trying to share data and weird methods

01:36:30   because you can't share it directly. If you're jumping through all these hoops and doing

01:36:34   all these weird hacks, maybe a Mac is really the better solution for you. And for pro work,

01:36:41   if what you want to do does not fit comfortably in an iPad, an 11-inch MacBook Air is really

01:36:47   not that much bigger. And it's not that much more money than a reasonably well-equipped

01:36:51   iPad and it will last longer probably.

01:36:55   And you know, it's just... I think the border is

01:36:59   if you are needing to use a keyboard

01:37:03   on the iPad frequently, like if you're buying a hardware keyboard

01:37:07   and using it frequently, you're probably going to be better served by a Mac.

01:37:11   See, I wanted to save this for a regular show, but no.

01:37:15   Our topic list is so long, I knew this would be quick,

01:37:19   I figured I'd burn it.

01:37:20   I mean, I actually have a quick thing to say about it, because I think Al Simpsons did

01:37:24   it again and say that I'm pretty sure I'm the first person who I recall-- like, I didn't

01:37:30   hear anyone else say iPad Pro when I talked about it on a Hyperk

01:37:30   hear anyone else say iPad Pro when I talked about a hyper-credits episode years ago. I

01:37:34   don't remember how it came up, but I mentioned that I'm very interested in a larger, more

01:37:39   powerful iPad. I don't remember if I said iPad Pro, I probably did, because that's the

01:37:43   obvious name for it. Years and years ago, basically as soon as the first iPad came out,

01:37:48   way well before there was a mini, I wanted a bigger, more powerful iPad, an iPad Pro.

01:37:53   And I said that's not going to happen anytime soon. And Marco's question on Twitter reminded

01:37:58   me of this because he was like, who the hell's asking for a bigger iPad?

01:38:01   Because Marco's old now and he had forgotten or not listened to that episode of Hypercritical

01:38:05   where I'd asked for it.

01:38:06   I'm asking for a bigger iPad Pro.

01:38:08   And the reason I'm also not a mini user, but anyway, the reason I keep thinking about an

01:38:12   iPad Pro and the reason I was thinking of an iPad Pro all those years ago and continue

01:38:15   to, it's very simple.

01:38:16   It has nothing to do with these rumors, which as many people have pointed out could just

01:38:20   be the new 12-inch MacBook Air form factor, whatever.

01:38:23   You can't-- I love screen size rumors.

01:38:27   Apple is ordering screens of X size, therefore--

01:38:29   and then every product, they could possibly

01:38:30   fit that screen in it.

01:38:31   It's the new Retina Mac Pro.

01:38:33   They're going to put seven of those screens together.

01:38:35   Anyway, ignoring that, why do we care about an iPad Pro?

01:38:40   Why do I think this iPad Pro is the thing?

01:38:42   And it's very, very simple.

01:38:44   iOS is a better user experience than the Mac for most people.

01:38:48   I think everyone would agree on that, which probably means

01:38:51   that iOS or something like iOS is

01:38:52   the future of computing. And if iOS is the future of computing or something like it,

01:38:57   that means that anything we can do on our Mac today will want to do on something that's

01:39:01   more like iOS in the future. And that will mean that iOS devices need to get bigger and

01:39:06   more powerful. Yes, the hardware, yes, also the software. It's just simple logical progression.

01:39:11   You're going to want to do more stuff with iOS devices because iOS is the future. iOS

01:39:16   devices are going to have to get both bigger and smaller, probably not much smaller than

01:39:19   they are now, they're gonna have to get bigger and more powerful.

01:39:21   Some day, not all probably, but some of the things we do on our Mac that we can't do on

01:39:26   iPads today, we will have to be able to do on iPads, because they're the future.

01:39:30   So they're gonna have to get bigger, they're gonna have to get more powerful, and yes,

01:39:32   they're gonna have to get more capable.

01:39:34   And that's it.

01:39:35   That's the calculus.

01:39:36   You don't have to say they're gonna come out now or this year or next year, or they can't

01:39:39   come out until software changes.

01:39:40   Of course, all that is true.

01:39:41   But all the things that iOS gets rid of that we don't like anymore, they're not coming

01:39:46   back.

01:39:47   device that comes out that's more complicated than the Mac.

01:39:50   Like it's going, it's the other direction, right?

01:39:52   Now the iOS is going to have to get more capable and hopefully not get as complicated as the

01:39:56   Mac.

01:39:57   Like it's the whole continuum, iOS on one end and the Mac on the other.

01:40:00   Where do they meet in the middle?

01:40:01   What happens?

01:40:02   But that form factor, a tablet form factor, is going to become more capable.

01:40:06   You're going to be able to do more stuff with it.

01:40:08   So they have to have a bigger, more powerful one someday.

01:40:10   I don't know when that day is, but I continue to wait for it because as soon as you see

01:40:13   iOS, as soon as you see a tablet OS, you're like, "Well, I can barely do anything on this

01:40:17   thing now, but I can imagine a future where I can do way more with this thing, and that

01:40:24   way more is going to require a bigger screen and more power."

01:40:27   And so that's my simple explanation for the iPad Pro, because it has to assume some of

01:40:32   the mantle of the Mac eventually.

01:40:34   It will assume some of the mantle of the Mac eventually, or it will just go away and be

01:40:37   replaced by something different.

01:40:39   But it has to, you know, tablet form factor has to do that, and so it's going to get bigger.

01:40:43   Yeah, but that doesn't—well, nothing you just said implies a difference.

01:40:48   So when I hear iPad Pro, what that indicates to me is that there's going to be a clear

01:40:52   delineation between iPad regular and iPad Pro, be that a much larger screen size, which

01:40:59   to me is a weak line, a dashed line, if you will, or a much better processor, a much more

01:41:04   RAM, or a much bigger—

01:41:07   It's got to have a bigger screen size, though.

01:41:09   But see, I just—I don't see why.

01:41:12   Because one of the things that a Mac can do that iOS devices can't do is a bunch of stuff

01:41:17   at once.

01:41:18   And a bunch of stuff at once means the thing you're doing probably can't take up the entire

01:41:22   screen.

01:41:23   And if you're going to divide the screen up in any possible way, you need more screen.

01:41:26   That's it.

01:41:27   But iOS, some of the beauty of iOS is not being able to do more than one thing at once.

01:41:33   True.

01:41:34   All true.

01:41:35   Like, I'm not saying that's going to go away.

01:41:36   I'm saying, well, you wouldn't want to divvy up.

01:41:38   You would never, like, imagine divvying up an iPhone screen.

01:41:40   Now you can have two iPhone apps side by side,

01:41:42   no, it's too small, right?

01:41:44   And even a full-size current iPad screen,

01:41:47   I don't think you wanna divvy that up.

01:41:49   But if you're gonna be using a tablet device

01:41:51   to do development, like the new version of Xcode in 2027

01:41:54   only runs on iOS, right?

01:41:57   You're gonna wanna see more than one thing at once.

01:41:59   And you need more screen space to do that.

01:42:01   It's the same reason we all have multiple windows on our Mac.

01:42:03   Now, it's not gonna be a multi-window interface,

01:42:05   like that's too complicated, right?

01:42:07   But it's a continuum.

01:42:08   And if you want to do more stuff with iOS, you need to see more things at once.

01:42:12   And it's not a smart idea to take existing screen sizes and chop them up.

01:42:16   So I think it's inevitable that at a certain point you need more screen space to do.

01:42:20   Otherwise it would be saying Mac's going to be around forever, and there's nothing you

01:42:23   can do on a Mac today that you can't do on iOS that's ever going to jump ship to like,

01:42:27   "Well, previously you couldn't do that on iOS, but now you can.

01:42:29   And previously you needed a Mac to do that, but now you can actually get away with it

01:42:32   on iOS."

01:42:33   We've already seen that happen in small degrees.

01:42:36   we're going to reach a point where you say, "Well, the only way we could ever do that

01:42:38   on iOS is we need to be able to see more than one thing at once, and we can't do that on

01:42:43   existing screen sizes, so we need a bigger screen." And a new OS and a new paradigm for

01:42:47   how we're doing that, whether it's the Windows 8 way with Divi in half, or... They've got

01:42:51   to come up with some of that, because the need to do more than one thing at once and

01:42:54   see more than one thing at once is not going away.

01:42:56   Well, but we've had, throughout computing history, we've always had specialty devices

01:43:03   that could do less that still had a place in the market, but they never took over. So

01:43:08   things like game consoles are probably the best example of this. Where you have, like,

01:43:13   no one was ever saying, "Eventually game consoles are going to be so good they're going to replace

01:43:18   computers."

01:43:19   No, no, no, you're forgetting the GUI again. It could do less than the command line, but

01:43:22   it took over.

01:43:23   The problem I see with trying to make tablets replace computers, the biggest problem by

01:43:30   far, is the same thing I was saying on my blog, which was horrible in 2009, when I was

01:43:37   basically, there were all these rumors that Apple was going to make a tablet, and I wrote

01:43:42   a few articles that were, the gist of it was, Apple's going to have to solve the input problem,

01:43:47   because the biggest problem with tablets, and the reason they've never taken off before,

01:43:53   is because of input and because you have this weird thing

01:43:58   where it's trying to do computer tasks

01:44:01   but keyboards for tablets have always sucked

01:44:06   unless they've been full on laptops

01:44:08   that do the convertible thing,

01:44:10   in which case they're big and kind of crappy tablets.

01:44:13   And so what are they gonna do to solve this, right?

01:44:17   And in fact, they didn't solve it.

01:44:20   They just punted.

01:44:21   They basically said, you know what,

01:44:23   "We're just gonna keep the on-screen keyboard that we had on the iPhone and it's gonna work

01:44:26   okay."

01:44:27   And they did, and it does.

01:44:28   It works okay.

01:44:29   You know, it doesn't work amazingly.

01:44:32   It's very limited.

01:44:33   And there's a lot of things that people are demanding real keyboards for for very good

01:44:37   reason because real keyboards work way better.

01:44:40   And so they didn't solve that problem with the iPad.

01:44:44   That doesn't mean they ever will.

01:44:45   That doesn't mean that, like, I think multitasking on a full computer kind of requires good advantage

01:44:53   advanced fast input. And so, you know, I'd only have to solve the keyboard problem of--

01:44:57   Who's to say an iPad Pro wouldn't have a keyboard?

01:45:00   Well, so, okay, so maybe it will. So, the bigger problem is, what do you do with the

01:45:04   mouse? Because iOS doesn't--and there was a good discussion on the talk show this week

01:45:09   about this, too. iOS is not built for a mouse cursor. A mouse cursor doesn't really--I mean,

01:45:16   you could, like, you can do it in the simulator, but it kind of sucks, and it's very clearly

01:45:20   not made for that. The experience of using a hardware keyboard with an iPad and having

01:45:25   to keep reaching up to the screen with your finger to touch things is really terrible.

01:45:30   And so there's these major, major problems with iOS that they would have to solve. I

01:45:36   mean, it's a problem only in the sense of trying to make it replace computers.

01:45:40   Well, they're not trying to replace computers. They're just trying to take some of the functionality

01:45:43   that currently requires computer and allow it to be done on the iPad. That's the history

01:45:48   of iOS and the iPad. Things that previously required a computer are now feasible on iOS

01:45:53   devices.

01:45:54   Well, yeah, but that's always been the case with iOS. It's always been expanding its reach

01:45:59   a little bit, but there are these major barriers that it doesn't really easily cross because

01:46:05   of things like input and multitasking.

01:46:07   It's going to be difficult. Yeah, even the multitasking problem is not technically difficult

01:46:10   but UI-wise. But I think it has to happen because the alternative is relegating the

01:46:15   human race to have to use windowed personal computers of the type that we know now forever.

01:46:20   And they're just too complicated for regular people to use. The windowed interface with

01:46:25   file system access and folders, we all love it. We all think it's great. It will always

01:46:29   exist for expert users, but humanity has voted and they want things that they can touch that

01:46:34   are not as complicated. And so we are tasked with, we have to find a way to make more things possible

01:46:42   with these things that people actually want to use that are harder to screw up, like that's

01:46:45   just progress. Like make it so it's not so complicated, so there's not so much to know,

01:46:48   so it's harder to break, so it's more reliable. Like we've done that with iOS. We've done it by

01:46:53   shedding almost everything that you can do with a personal computer, but we'll say how much of that

01:46:57   can we get back without compromising the complexity? And if we screw it up and bring

01:47:01   too much of the computer stuff over to iOS, then maybe we'll need another reboot and let's try this

01:47:05   again and start over with a different paradigm sometime in the future. But I think this is what's

01:47:10   What's going to happen is this is our opportunity is to make iOS more capable.

01:47:15   Does it include putting a keyboard on it?

01:47:17   Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

01:47:18   Maybe, you know, what can you do without a keyboard?

01:47:20   Or do we need a mouse or do we not need a mouse?

01:47:22   We don't like to reach up for the thing.

01:47:24   Like do we want to have it on our lap?

01:47:25   Do you want to have a better virtual keyboard?

01:47:27   Like I don't know what the solutions are to these things, but like baby steps would just

01:47:31   be, you know, Windows 8 is already doing it with like if you've got a big enough screen,

01:47:35   sometimes you want to see a Twitter app on the side while you're working in another app.

01:47:38   or sometimes you want to copy and paste from one app to the other without doing a switch

01:47:41   type thing.

01:47:42   Like, the larger screen being able to see more than anything at once is a small step

01:47:45   in that direction, and if done well, can open up lots of functionality that I haven't listed

01:47:51   in this episode of the podcast you're talking about, but it can open up a lot of functionality

01:47:54   that I assume they're complaining about.

01:47:55   It's like, "Look, I just want to do a simple workflow where I've got a graphic editor and

01:47:59   some links and a web page and I'm writing text."

01:48:01   You know, just blogging.

01:48:02   How much easier it is blogging on a Mac because you have all those things kind of in play

01:48:06   at once versus trying to do an iOS and you feel like you're constantly switching stuff,

01:48:10   that is a surmountable barrier with some clever software and a larger screen.

01:48:16   Ignoring the keyboard input and just keeping with our fingers, just being able to do a

01:48:20   simple blog post synthesizing from some graphics and text and links and stuff.

01:48:25   That's our next step.

01:48:26   See, I don't think that's the next step.

01:48:28   I feel like the next step is—and I know everyone's been beating this to death—but

01:48:34   better inter-app communication. Because if you look at what Viticci is doing with x call

01:48:39   back URL and URL schemes and chaining just ridiculous things together, I feel like if

01:48:47   that was less user hostile, and it will probably always be a power user sort of thing to do,

01:48:54   but just a less user hostile way of doing things. Like whatever Android does or like

01:48:59   Windows phones, contracts, whatever they're called, that's not the right word for it.

01:49:03   I forget what it is now, but...

01:49:04   >> Now that was a... it's intense on Android, I think, and contracts on Windows 8, right?

01:49:08   >> Oh, it is?

01:49:09   Okay.

01:49:10   I think you're right now that you say that.

01:49:11   It doesn't matter.

01:49:12   You get the idea.

01:49:13   >> I would love that on iOS.

01:49:14   >> Right?

01:49:15   And it would be so much nicer.

01:49:16   But it would enable us to do a lot of things.

01:49:19   Like, if you're doing a blog post, yes, it would be in a perfect world.

01:49:21   Nice to look at something that you're commenting or writing a post about on the left-hand side

01:49:26   of a landscape screen and your editor window on the right.

01:49:30   But to be honest, using your four fingers on an iPad to shimmy back and forth between

01:49:35   apps and do the fast app switching, that's sufficient.

01:49:38   And I'd almost rather have the hurdle of swapping between apps to see something that

01:49:45   I'm commenting on and then comment on it.

01:49:47   I'd rather do that than have some crazy scheme of having, I don't know, two iPhone

01:49:55   apps side by side or something where the screen is split in half. It seems to me like that

01:50:02   would be not fun.

01:50:03   Well, we're talking about the same thing, because that's the plumbing that would have

01:50:06   to underpin all this. The display issues are kind of neither here nor there, because again,

01:50:11   the same ability to do more than one thing, like to have more balls in the air at once,

01:50:16   would still also probably exist on the full-size iPad, even though they would probably never

01:50:19   want to split that screen. It's the plumbing that makes it work. It's just that when you

01:50:23   have more screen space, think of it this way.

01:50:26   Remember when people first got 24-inch monitors or 21-inch monitors?

01:50:31   The monitors were way bigger than they previously had.

01:50:32   It was like you'd have a 14-inch and all of a sudden you got a 21-inch.

01:50:35   You'd see the Windows users with their new 21-inch monitor be like, "This is awesome.

01:50:38   I have a gigantic monitor."

01:50:39   Then they would take their Notepad window and zoom it to full screen.

01:50:42   It would fill their entire screen.

01:50:44   Their text would be in a little column in the upper left and the whole vestibule would

01:50:47   be in expansive white.

01:50:48   It's like, "I think you're missing the advantage of having a larger monitor.

01:50:52   It's not so you can take all your existing windows and make them huge because I mean people would eventually learn if it was wrapping wasn't

01:50:57   On the trying to read a line of text that go that's two feet wide is not comfortable like there's a comfortable width for a column

01:51:03   Of text so you can your eyes you know and then once you've made it narrow

01:51:06   What are you gonna do with all you can put something else in that space like?

01:51:08   And that's why I'm getting back to iPad Pro not that it's what everyone's gonna use instead of a PC or not that everyone who?

01:51:13   Has an iPad is gonna get one just that there will exist this it's kind of like the Mac Pro of the iPad line there

01:51:18   will exist a

01:51:20   tablet type device for artists for graphic designers

01:51:23   Maybe even for coders if like you put a keyboard in front of it an Xcode would like

01:51:26   Instead imagine architects drafting table with a keyboard in front of it where it's all flat

01:51:31   You're not reaching up at a screen or whatever like there are

01:51:34   Endeavors that you might be able to do where you're like this is less complicated than a Mac

01:51:38   I can get all the same things not and once you get a larger screen like that you're gonna like well

01:51:42   You know all the plumbings there. I could do this with the four finger swipe or whatever, but I've got this gigantic screen

01:51:48   that's like 19, 20 inches, and it's a beautiful touch screen, I can do these amazing things

01:51:52   with it and everything, but sometimes I just want to see more than one thing on it.

01:51:55   So they have to come up with some solution to that, and the solution can't be a bunch

01:51:58   of windows because that sucks and we're just making the same stuff come back that we had

01:52:01   before.

01:52:02   So I don't know what the solution is, but I think that's inevitable if we ever want

01:52:07   to leave behind the crappy things that computers make us endure now, but still get some of

01:52:14   those advantages in some realms.

01:52:15   It will still be all the single screen phones, it will still be the regular sized iPads that

01:52:19   normal people use.

01:52:20   I'm just thinking if this is the reason the Pro is in the name.

01:52:23   The iPad Pro used by 3D modelers, graphic designers, people doing page layout if pages

01:52:30   still exist anywhere, maybe people doing web development, maybe even people working in

01:52:34   Xcode doing iOS devices.

01:52:36   Hell, maybe you could have one of the other windows could be your simulator while you

01:52:40   do real-time updates in Xcode and it recompiles your stuff in real-time and you watch the

01:52:45   changes take effect in real-time on the other thing.

01:52:47   It's like you had a dynamic programming language, but not really.

01:52:50   And that would be very cool.

01:52:53   But doesn't the move for OS X to be more iOS-like, most specifically around full-screen

01:53:00   windows and how that support has gotten a lot better in Mavericks and it's actually

01:53:05   kind of usable now?

01:53:09   That makes me feel like some sort of windowing system isn't the right answer.

01:53:14   And I know I'm harping on something that I really shouldn't harp on, but I just don't

01:53:17   see how any sort of windowing is really the right answer.

01:53:21   I think it's something else.

01:53:22   Well, it can't be that kind of window system.

01:53:25   Like with OS X, again, OS X is trying to become more iOS-like, and iOS is trying to do more

01:53:30   things that previously only OS X could do.

01:53:32   And I don't know who will lurch more in which direction and how that will go.

01:53:38   like it. My impression is that it's harder to make Mac OS X simpler or OS X simpler than

01:53:43   it is to make iOS more capable. So I would imagine, that's why I think the future is

01:53:46   making iOS more capable and not, we can simplify OS X until it's just as simple as iOS. You'll

01:53:51   never do it, nor should you ever. It would just be a disaster. Better to start with what

01:53:56   you, they were so smart to start really simple on iOS and just don't screw it up. And it's

01:54:00   probably not going to be Windows. Like full screen mode on OS X is a great example because

01:54:04   Like, now we've made it simpler.

01:54:05   No, you've actually just made it more complicated.

01:54:07   Because you left all the existing ones,

01:54:09   because you can't get rid of the existing windowing system,

01:54:11   nor should you.

01:54:12   But now you have another mode to go into.

01:54:14   And on iOS, they have the opportunity

01:54:17   to do something better.

01:54:19   And I'm not sure what it is or how it will work,

01:54:21   but it can't be like OS X Windows.

01:54:23   So it seems like the kind of jobs forestall dynasty

01:54:29   was pushing for the Mac to become more iOS-like,

01:54:33   for iOS to get better. But for the most part, that era of Apple was pulling the Mac towards

01:54:42   iOS. And it seems like now in the Tim Cook era and the restructuring of the divisions,

01:54:50   it seems like Apple has become more confident in keeping the Mac the Mac and not trying

01:54:56   to make the Mac iOS. And you know, all of this talk, and John, you've kind of been on

01:55:02   this too, like all of this talk about these two merging eventually has this built-in assumption

01:55:10   that that would be a good idea and that that's inevitable. And I would question both of those

01:55:14   things. I would say that we saw what happened when Apple tried to make the Mac more iOS-like.

01:55:23   kind of sucked. And everything you're talking about, about what iOS would need to become

01:55:30   more pro, in a lot of ways that would make iOS worse.

01:55:34   Well, I mean, it's like I said in the Mavericks review, it's picking the right things. What

01:55:38   they forced all jobs thing was like, they were picking the wrong things to make the

01:55:42   Mac iOS. They picked some of the right things, but the right things they did pick, we like.

01:55:48   For example, the App Store is a better way to deal with--

01:55:52   ignoring the policy stuff, just in terms of the mechanics

01:55:55   of installing applications.

01:55:57   It's better the App Store way than it used to be,

01:55:59   where you go to a web page, download a DMG,

01:56:01   mount a blah, blah, blah.

01:56:02   That's a simplification that came from iOS.

01:56:04   It doesn't necessarily have to look like iOS

01:56:06   or work the same way.

01:56:07   The finder doesn't need to be replaced with a launch pad

01:56:10   with little shaky icons.

01:56:11   And Access really did that, too.

01:56:13   But the key feature is dealing with installing applications

01:56:17   pain in the butt, it's not a pain in the butt on iOS, can we bring that simplicity to the

01:56:21   Mac?" And they did, and they brought a bunch of other crappy baggage with it. It's just

01:56:24   about picking the right thing. So if you're going to do it the other direction and say,

01:56:27   "We want to make iOS more capable," don't pick the crappy things that just make it as

01:56:31   complicated and evil as the Mac. You've got to find the right things. It's not like you're

01:56:34   bringing a feature over, you're bringing a capability. Can I instruct someone over the

01:56:39   phone on how to purchase and install an application on a Mac? Previously, you couldn't. Now you

01:56:44   you can. Right? Good job. Uninstalled, not great, right? But like, it's just a tiny little

01:56:51   bit. It's why I keep talking about filing off the rough edges of OS X. All the parts

01:56:57   of it that are like complicated in ways that normal people shouldn't have to care about

01:57:01   need to go away. And you got to just do that part and not try to be like, "Yeah, we need

01:57:05   to make this application look like an address book because it looks like that in iOS." And

01:57:09   it's like, no, that's not the important part.

01:57:12   The important part is like seamless data

01:57:14   sinking through the cloud and blah, blah, blah,

01:57:16   and they kinda screw that up, right?

01:57:17   But it's difficult, it's not saying it's an easy job,

01:57:21   but that's what they have to do.

01:57:21   Pick the right things, the right capabilities to bring over.

01:57:25   Some of them can't be carried over,

01:57:26   some of them shouldn't be carried over,

01:57:27   and some of them have to be done in a different way

01:57:29   on the target platform.

01:57:31   - See, I would disagree that it's even possible

01:57:36   to make a good combination.

01:57:38   Like the problems that these two

01:57:40   very different platforms solve,

01:57:42   I think there's insurmountable differences

01:57:45   in attempting to merge them.

01:57:46   I mean, look at Windows 8.

01:57:47   - Well, you're not gonna get like one, yeah.

01:57:49   No one is, I don't think anyone's arguing.

01:57:52   Both of these will go away and they'll be replaced

01:57:53   by one thing, like that's not gonna happen.

01:57:55   Because if you did replace it by one thing,

01:57:56   it would have to be one thing that has so many

01:57:58   different modes that it access to different things.

01:57:59   Like what's the point of you having--

01:58:01   - You'd have Windows 8.

01:58:02   - Yeah, exactly.

01:58:03   Like I could, you could just right now

01:58:04   make up a new brand name and apply it to both

01:58:07   OS X and iOS and say, "Hey, we're unified. It's one operating system. This is what you

01:58:10   install it on your Mac. It looks different and behaves totally different." You're right.

01:58:13   It's exactly like Windows 8, where there's the desktop version and then this Metro thing

01:58:17   over here. And that's not useful to anybody.

01:58:19   Really. I think if both platforms maintain their confidence and they're both okay being

01:58:27   themselves, I think everyone's better off. The platforms, Apple, the customers, regular

01:58:32   nerds, power users, I think everyone's better off, because I don't think trying to merge

01:58:37   these two platforms together is possible to do well.

01:58:41   Yeah, but I think the thing that they're doing now of making the Mac simpler and making iOS

01:58:47   more capable is the right thing to do, carefully, cautiously, in the right ways.

01:58:52   They've already had false starts.

01:58:53   They tried to make the Mac simpler in ways that were not appropriate, and the jury's

01:58:56   still out on a lot of them, like autosave and stuff.

01:58:59   of the right idea, kind of not the best implementation, but in general, I agree with that motivation.

01:59:05   And with iOS, adding multitasking, thumbs up, right?

01:59:09   The multitasking switcher was not great.

01:59:10   It's a little bit better in iOS 7, right?

01:59:13   They're doing it in little bits, and with some dead ends, and copy and paste was a good

01:59:18   addition, right?

01:59:19   Let's make iOS more capable.

01:59:21   You did that right, but that was something you needed.

01:59:23   Baby steps, sometimes dead ends, retreat, figure out what you did wrong, try again.

01:59:29   and the big reset with iOS 7 is another opportunity.

01:59:32   And I fully expect if and when they come out

01:59:35   with something like an iPad Pro and try to enhance iOS

01:59:37   to make it a worthwhile product,

01:59:39   they'll screw up something about it.

01:59:40   They'll make it more complicated than it should be.

01:59:41   They'll have to, you know,

01:59:43   I mean, like the multitasking switcher,

01:59:44   it's like that wasn't a great multitasking switcher

01:59:46   and it's gone now and I don't think many people miss it.

01:59:49   But the idea that you would want to switch applications

01:59:52   and that some of them could be running,

01:59:53   like, or background apps, like that concept was good.

01:59:56   They just had to figure out the right time to do it,

01:59:58   the best way to do it.

01:59:58   the current implementation is not great, but they're going in the right direction in small

02:00:03   pieces. And I look down the line at that, and you're right, I never see one OS going on

02:00:09   everything because it doesn't make any sense. It would have to be such an incredibly capable OS

02:00:12   to scale from a phone up to a PC. It doesn't make any sense probably in our lifetime. But these two

02:00:18   products should evolve to adopt each other's benefits to the degree that it's possible

02:00:24   and appropriate. Are we actually done now?

02:00:27   Marco wanted to put this topic in this show.

02:00:31   It's all Marco's fault. God, he's so mean to us.

02:00:34   Well, you just wait until I talk about AV receivers.

02:00:37   How about soccer methodologies? When are we doing that?

02:00:41   Let's start now.

02:00:43   Why not?

02:00:45   Did you guys Google the fireworks factory now? You probably didn't.

02:00:48   What in the hell are you talking about?

02:00:49   Oh, never mind.

02:00:50   Oh, you have to make another Simpsons reference.

02:00:52   Yes.

02:00:53   Not all my pop culture references are from The Simpsons, but a lot of them.

02:00:57   90% of them are. All right, can we do titles? Aye yai yai. I'm half tempted to start software

02:01:04   methodologies, kind of to troll myself into staying up late.

02:01:10   I do really like Romeo and Syracuse yet. What the hell was that? Where was I when that

02:01:16   happened? There was no one said that. That's just someone making up a title.

02:01:19   That's hell of a compliment, the Accidental Hypercritical Podcast. It's a terrible title,

02:01:23   but a great compliment. This was not an accidental hypercritical podcast.

02:01:26   It was no accident.

02:01:28   This was no boating accident. Do you get that one?

02:01:30   Nope.

02:01:32   Chat room, do you see what I'm dealing with here?

02:01:34   I need something to commiserate.

02:01:36   How many times have you said that?

02:01:38   It just boggles my mind.

02:01:40   This should totally be part of their drinking game.

02:01:42   This should be on everyone's bingo boards.

02:01:44   Do you see what I'm dealing with?

02:01:46   When I get mad and become crazy because you guys don't know, like,

02:01:50   the most...

02:01:52   I'm not that bad.

02:01:54   most… I'm not that much older than you, but you have no excuse. There's no excuse!

02:02:01   Oh, John, trolling you might be my favorite thing in the world. I mean, I love you.

02:02:07   If you start trolling me, it would work, because your actual lack of knowledge about pop culture,

02:02:12   it's impossible to parody. You could be like, "Oh, that time I had actually seen

02:02:17   that movie, but I lied just to annoy you." It's no worse than the ones you haven't

02:02:20   legitimately seen, so it's not even effective trolling.

02:02:24   Oh god, it's so true.

02:02:26   Is there a movie you can pretend to not have seen that is more implausible than the movies

02:02:31   you've actually not seen?

02:02:34   Forrest Gump?

02:02:35   No, that's not that impressive.

02:02:37   No one likes Forrest Gump.

02:02:38   Yeah, speaking of the unprofessional listening to Marco, he was saying that he had seen the

02:02:42   Star Wars movies.

02:02:43   Like, Marco has seen Star Wars?

02:02:44   I was so proud of you.

02:02:45   Yeah, of course.

02:02:46   Although I have not seen any Harry Potters, any Lord of the Rings.

02:02:50   You're not missing anything on Lord of the Rings, I'll tell you that right now.

02:02:52   No Star Trek?

02:02:53   I was never a Star Trek guy, so.

02:02:55   - Zero Star Treks ever?

02:02:57   - Yeah.

02:02:58   I've seen bits and pieces of the TV show here and there,

02:02:59   but never like sat down and really watched it.

02:03:02   - See, I was a religious Next Generation fan,

02:03:05   Next Generation, excuse me,

02:03:07   I'm already making myself sound terrible.

02:03:09   - You're already trolling.

02:03:10   - I know, I'm trolling myself and John.

02:03:13   And then I watched all of the movies

02:03:16   up through like the second or third Next Generation one.

02:03:19   I forget which one it was, that was the last one.

02:03:21   but I know enough to know that the evens are the goods and the odds are no good.

02:03:26   Debatable. You should watch the J.J. Abrams Star Trek movies. They're fun.

02:03:30   Oh, I'm sorry. I have seen the new ones. Those are very good.

02:03:34   I was talking about like the-- it was Star Trek Generations, I think, was the last one I saw,

02:03:39   and then there were like four that were the next generation cast, staff, whatever you want to call them,

02:03:45   and I missed those last four, whatever it was.

02:03:48   You're not missing too much.

02:03:49   I didn't think so.

02:03:50   You watch the TV series Next Gen, so you can imagine that crew is not really cut out for

02:03:56   action movies.

02:03:57   No.

02:03:58   I mean, I loved the show, don't get me wrong, but you're right.

02:04:00   They're not cut out for action movies.

02:04:01   We need some titles here.

02:04:03   Sorry, yes.

02:04:04   So I'm going through the podcast by Lex and Dan Morin called Not Playing, where they go

02:04:12   through movies that everyone has seen that Lex and Dan Morin have not seen, and they

02:04:16   watch them for the first time and record a commentary track.

02:04:18   Well, they did Mannequin.

02:04:19   I don't think that's a movie ever I see yeah, I haven't seen okay. I'm looking through here

02:04:23   Alright, so Beverly Hills cop. I've never seen that

02:04:27   So guy hard one. I don't think I've seen that so I've seen some of the recent ones

02:04:32   UHF I did see UHF hey you're gonna drink from the fire hose all right. I hated it, but I did see it

02:04:39   Field of Dreams, I'm pretty sure I have not seen I might have seen bits and pieces on TV here and there

02:04:45   But I haven't seen the whole thing. I don't think I've never seen it

02:04:47   Mannequin definitely not I think I saw that when I was a kid and had inappropriate feelings about it if memory serves

02:04:54   So did Lex and lethal weapon definitely not

02:04:56   Lethal weapon I've seen all I've seen all the lethal weapons all the Beverly Hills cops

02:05:01   Let's see field of dreams never seen UHF UHF I don't think I've ever seen of course I've seen diehard I mean come on

02:05:08   I'm not an animal

02:05:10   And that's it I guess

02:05:12   titles people God

02:05:14   Titles this is how this is how John's trolling you constantly off the titles track

02:05:18   I didn't think you're the one looking through not playing. I haven't listened to that though

02:05:22   I don't listen to the capsule ones. I don't do the commentary ones. I don't see any amazing titles so whatever

02:05:28   I'm a big fan of Romeo in Syracuse, Seattle though. I have to spell Romeo correctly

02:05:33   Which that's not the way the tivos people spell it yeah

02:05:35   I had to look it up when I tweeted about it cuz I'd made a guess and I was wrong. It's a stupid name

02:05:41   That's not a word. And it has nothing to do with roaming. It sits under your TV. You're

02:05:46   roaming. You can roam all over your house on the internet. Like, yeah. Stupid.

02:05:50   All right. Can we go off here for just a minute before I pass out?

02:05:54   Yeah. All right. We'll keep not picking titles. All right. Thanks. Thanks, live listeners.

02:05:59   Bye, everybody.

02:06:01   We're so good at this. All right.

02:06:02   We're professionals. Good grief.