22: Full Brichter


00:00:00   Time boxing is such like a consultant speak thing to say.

00:00:03   - I don't even know what that means.

00:00:05   - It's doing a task,

00:00:06   but limiting it to a certain amount of time.

00:00:09   - But time is one dimensional,

00:00:11   boxing doesn't make sense.

00:00:13   - Well, the thought is,

00:00:14   oh, I don't know how long this task is gonna take me.

00:00:16   All right, well, we'll time box it for two hours

00:00:18   and see where you get.

00:00:19   - Maybe time bracketing?

00:00:20   I'm trying to think of something

00:00:22   that doesn't imply a second dimension.

00:00:25   (laughing)

00:00:27   - Only you would be pissed off

00:00:28   that time is one dimensional. - Time limiting?

00:00:29   There's probably regular English words that will work here.

00:00:35   So you did something at an interesting hour last night by the time we're recording, but

00:00:41   almost a week ago by the time most people hear this.

00:00:44   Yeah, I released a new app for the first time in a long time.

00:00:47   How'd that go?

00:00:49   Really well, actually.

00:00:50   So, this was my few days project app that I discussed a couple episodes back, and the

00:00:57   is called Bugshot, and it is kind of like Skitch for iOS without sucking. So it's basically

00:01:04   it's a very, very simplified screenshot annotation app where you it just shows a list of all

00:01:10   your screenshots and your camera roll, and then you get to draw big orange arrows or

00:01:17   boxes on them to point out certain things in them and then email them or do something

00:01:21   with them. And that's literally all it is, boxes and arrows, orange on screenshots. And

00:01:28   the reason I created it is because it was just like a couple of weeks ago, I was like

00:01:37   in the back den playing with my kid and navigating through a podcast that was playing on a speaker

00:01:43   and I noticed yet another visual bug in Downcast while I was doing this because Downcast still

00:01:51   has a few issues on iOS 7.

00:01:53   It works, but there's a number of UI glitches.

00:01:57   And so I took a screenshot, and I always do.

00:02:01   Whenever I see a bug in an app, whether it's

00:02:04   mine or somebody else's, I always

00:02:06   take a screenshot with the intention of going,

00:02:08   and once I get back to my big computer,

00:02:11   emailing it or fixing it if it's my bug or something like that.

00:02:15   And usually I forget to do this.

00:02:19   And so what I end up with is I'll go through my camera roll

00:02:22   looking for something else and come across

00:02:24   all these screenshots of bugs that I have long since

00:02:26   forgotten about that are either out of date,

00:02:29   or I'll look at the screenshot and think,

00:02:32   why did I take the screenshot?

00:02:33   What's wrong with this?

00:02:34   I'll forget, and it won't be immediately obvious

00:02:37   upon looking at it.

00:02:37   Like, wait, why did I think this was a problem?

00:02:42   So this basically-- bug shot for me

00:02:46   was a way to both give screenshots a workflow,

00:02:51   to make an app that's dedicated for receiving them

00:02:54   and doing something with them immediately on the phone.

00:02:57   So it kind of gives me an excuse to remind myself,

00:02:59   oh, now that I have this app, especially now that I

00:03:01   made this app to do this, I won't just screenshot

00:03:04   and forget.

00:03:05   And also, the annotation part of it

00:03:07   is very handy to prevent the second problem, which

00:03:10   was forgetting why I took the screenshot or it not being

00:03:13   100% obvious and having to describe to somebody

00:03:15   in an email or something exactly what part of it

00:03:17   you're talking about.

00:03:19   So that's what it is.

00:03:21   And there were a number of decisions

00:03:25   I made along the way.

00:03:27   Mainly, I knew this was not going

00:03:28   to be the app that carried me in business for the next five

00:03:32   years.

00:03:32   And so I didn't want to spend a whole lot of time on it.

00:03:36   And almost every decision I made during development,

00:03:39   I had to balance against, OK, well, I could do x, y, or z.

00:03:43   or I could do this this way or this other way,

00:03:46   but that'll take a week, or that'll take too long,

00:03:49   or that'll have ongoing maintenance,

00:03:51   or something like that.

00:03:52   And I only want to spend a few days on this.

00:03:55   And of course, a few days became about a week,

00:03:56   but still, a week for an app really

00:03:59   isn't that bad relative to anything else.

00:04:04   Because even with this app, where its feature set is

00:04:07   relatively small and trivial, there's

00:04:10   There's still a lot of implementation to get right,

00:04:14   and a lot of decisions to make along the way,

00:04:16   and just a lot of work to do.

00:04:18   Screenshots, the icon, there's all sorts of stuff

00:04:22   that no matter how simple your app is,

00:04:24   if you want it to be high quality, even if it's simple,

00:04:27   you still have to do a whole bunch of stuff.

00:04:30   So there's probably a whole bunch of topics in here

00:04:33   we can talk about if you want,

00:04:35   but that would probably take too long.

00:04:37   I don't want to spend all day on this podcast.

00:04:40   So I don't know, what do you guys, what interests you here?

00:04:44   - I have complaints, do you want complaints?

00:04:46   - Absolutely. - Oh, as do I, as do I.

00:04:48   - I was hoping you'd have complaints.

00:04:49   - Do you wanna go first, Kasey, or you want me to go?

00:04:51   - I actually only have one in particular,

00:04:52   so I can go first and then leave you the floor

00:04:54   for the next 50 to 90 minutes.

00:04:56   (laughing)

00:04:58   But Marco was in town, as we talked about,

00:05:01   I think the last episode, he was in town

00:05:03   for a party that we threw, what was it, last weekend.

00:05:06   And so he showed me the app,

00:05:08   I think you had already sent it to the app store at that point, but it wasn't released,

00:05:12   of course.

00:05:13   Yeah, that's true.

00:05:14   And I had seen, well, John and I both had seen a couple screenshots, but that was my

00:05:17   only exposure to it.

00:05:18   We barely talked about it.

00:05:20   And basically Marco handed me his phone and said, "All right, here you go."

00:05:23   So in using the app, I thought it was extremely intuitive.

00:05:26   I thought that the way in which you drew things was very reasonable and made a lot of sense.

00:05:32   I wasn't really clear how to delete something, so I just tried a couple things.

00:05:35   and the second thing I tried or third thing I tried was double tapping on an object and

00:05:39   sure enough there it went.

00:05:41   So I thought that was really nice.

00:05:42   There was no demo needed.

00:05:44   It was, I thought it was extremely intuitive.

00:05:45   I know you got some flack on Twitter about that, but it made sense to me.

00:05:49   The thing that I didn't like, however, is you took the easy route, which is probably

00:05:53   what I would have done, uh, with the boxes in that the touch target for any rectangles

00:06:00   or squares or whatever, what have you, they're the entirety of the rectangle, including the

00:06:05   inner part that's actually clear. So if you were to put an arrow or another box inside

00:06:10   the bigger box, that gets a little bit dodgy in terms of how you select what you want to

00:06:15   select. And that really annoyed me, even though I don't know why I would ever run into that.

00:06:20   Well, that and so today, I spent this morning while Adam was watching Sesame Street giving

00:06:26   me some time here, because my wife was out of town until this afternoon. So I spent this

00:06:31   morning during Sesame Street working on that hit testing and playing with different things.

00:06:38   And I'm going to change it for 101. I'm going to make it so that basically--see, the challenge

00:06:45   here--and I faced this challenge during development, too, and I decided to take the easy way out.

00:06:49   But the challenge I faced is, so obviously, you know, if you tap and hit a shape, you

00:06:56   know, like how did, basically what's the bounding box or what's the bounding path for what should

00:07:01   be considered hitting that shape. And the problem is the shapes can be all different

00:07:06   sizes. And this is a touch device so everything's imprecise. Like the input is imprecise. So

00:07:13   if you constantly miss what you're trying to hit, that's bad. But the way it was, especially

00:07:19   with boxes, if you drew a really big box, you couldn't draw anything inside of it then,

00:07:24   because any tap inside of it would be considered

00:07:26   dragging that box, even if the space inside of it

00:07:29   was really vast and empty.

00:07:31   So obviously there's some middle ground here.

00:07:34   So what I'm playing with now is basically

00:07:36   like if the shape is below a certain size,

00:07:39   just the whole thing is the bounding box.

00:07:41   And then if it's above a certain size,

00:07:44   then only its border plus a little bit of padding

00:07:47   on both sides of the border,

00:07:49   that represents the bounding path.

00:07:52   And similar thing with arrows,

00:07:53   where if the arrow is below a certain size now,

00:07:56   it's just going to be the whole bounding box of the arrow.

00:08:00   And then once it gets past-- I think

00:08:01   I decided about 80 by 80 would be the boundary,

00:08:04   that once it gets past that boundary,

00:08:06   then the arrow itself, its path is the touch area.

00:08:12   But it's all-- this is a great example of one of those things

00:08:16   where the app looks really simple,

00:08:19   but there's a lot of little tiny details

00:08:20   like that, where I had to make decisions and experiment

00:08:23   and everything else.

00:08:24   And that's why I have a feeling a lot of developers,

00:08:27   upon hearing that this took me about a week

00:08:28   to really do and submit, probably

00:08:31   would think a week is way too long for an app that's

00:08:34   this simple.

00:08:35   But really, there's so many little details like that.

00:08:38   And that's what takes all the time, really.

00:08:40   Like, you can make a really terrible app in two days.

00:08:44   That's like from new project to submitted in two days.

00:08:48   you can do that, but there's very little chance it's going to be good.

00:08:53   So what I really wanted to do was, I wanted it to be very, very simple, but also good.

00:09:00   So what was left on the cutting room floor—and John, I know I'm delaying your complaints—but

00:09:04   what was left on the cutting room floor that you wanted to get done that didn't, but

00:09:09   you did that as a conscious choice to get it out quickly?

00:09:16   I played with a few ideas.

00:09:17   One of them-- a smaller version of what I'm about to say.

00:09:20   So one of the things I was doing was some kind of state

00:09:24   of marking which screenshots you have dealt with already.

00:09:28   So anything that you would annotate,

00:09:31   obviously I'd have to save the annotations, which

00:09:33   is a whole can of worms right there of how do you save and

00:09:35   restore these things.

00:09:37   And then you have user data to deal with.

00:09:40   Then do you have an export?

00:09:41   Do you have to sync that?

00:09:42   That's a whole can of worms.

00:09:45   the way it is now, you draw your boxes and arrows,

00:09:48   and then you hit either Cancel or Done.

00:09:51   Basically, if you've shared it anywhere,

00:09:52   then there were changes to Done.

00:09:54   Either way, once you're out of that screen,

00:09:56   that information is lost.

00:09:58   It's not saved anywhere.

00:10:00   And so that was mostly for simplicity's sake and the time

00:10:05   constraints.

00:10:05   But also, I feel like this is temporary data anyway.

00:10:10   The whole point of this is annotate a screenshot

00:10:12   and then get rid of it.

00:10:13   Send it somewhere so that you can deal with it

00:10:16   in some other place.

00:10:17   And for me, it's just emailing it to myself usually.

00:10:20   But either way-- which I know is terrible,

00:10:22   but amazingly, emailing things to yourself

00:10:25   is the best solution to a very, very wide set of problems

00:10:28   that unfortunately we still haven't

00:10:29   solved in better ways yet.

00:10:31   But I'm sure everyone-- I bet even John Siracusa,

00:10:35   do you still email things to yourself in certain contexts?

00:10:39   I email things to myself all the time.

00:10:41   See?

00:10:41   Yep.

00:10:42   It is the solution to so many problems.

00:10:45   Yep.

00:10:46   Now what about AirDrop?

00:10:47   Because I know that they've made passing mention to AirDrop.

00:10:49   AirDrop does not work between iOS and Mac in 7.

00:10:53   So--

00:10:53   OK.

00:10:54   See, I haven't looked much into it yet.

00:10:55   So yeah.

00:10:56   So one of my most frequent things

00:10:57   is like I just took a picture of something

00:10:59   and I wanted to get it on my computer faster

00:11:00   than PhotoStream will do it.

00:11:02   I'll just email it to myself.

00:11:04   It's so many people do this.

00:11:05   Anyway, so saving data was one thing

00:11:08   that I kind of punted on and decided, well,

00:11:09   let's see if this thing really justifies

00:11:11   more time investment, maybe I will investigate doing that.

00:11:15   And then you have the issue of, OK, well, then

00:11:18   do you hide screenshots that you've dealt with?

00:11:20   Because you can't delete them.

00:11:21   As far as I know, there's no API to delete things

00:11:23   from the camera roll from an app, which is probably

00:11:25   for the better, honestly.

00:11:26   But either way, there's no API to delete things.

00:11:29   So I can't do that.

00:11:30   So I could hide them.

00:11:32   But then what if you want to annotate the same screenshot

00:11:35   twice?

00:11:35   Then you have to have some kind of UI for showing hidden items

00:11:39   or toggling the done state.

00:11:41   And so there's all sorts of little things like that,

00:11:43   like, well, if you do this, then you

00:11:45   have to add this, this, and this to make good.

00:11:47   And so it ends up saving data or marking things as dealt with

00:11:53   are both bigger topics that I didn't want to address yet.

00:11:56   And the other big thing, which a few people have requested,

00:12:00   is the text tool, being able to draw text on the photos.

00:12:04   And a lot of people have requested this.

00:12:08   Back in the days of using Sketch-- and it's still on the Mac,

00:12:11   I still do use the old version of Sketch on the Mac.

00:12:13   But obviously, text is very nice to have.

00:12:18   But the problem on iOS, basically, is implementation.

00:12:23   The way I would want to do it would

00:12:25   be that you are typing directly on the image.

00:12:29   Like, you pick a place, the keyboard comes up,

00:12:31   and you are typing directly onto the image in the big orange

00:12:34   font with the stroke, and exactly as it's

00:12:36   going to look WYSIWYG style, like you are typing directly

00:12:40   onto the image.

00:12:41   And doing that in iOS in a way that

00:12:43   doesn't suck for another reasons, doing that in iOS

00:12:47   is not easy.

00:12:48   And it's getting easier with every version,

00:12:50   but I still have to support 6 for this app,

00:12:52   because obviously 7's not out yet to the public.

00:12:54   I can't make an app through the app store

00:12:56   that requires iOS 7 today.

00:12:58   So I still have to do this in a compatible way anyway.

00:13:05   So doing text right on the image like that would have been at least another day of work,

00:13:10   probably a couple days to really get it right, because there's so many weird little things

00:13:15   with text input.

00:13:17   And I realized that, you know, when I would email these things, usually I would just,

00:13:24   whatever commentary I had that required text, I would usually just type it into the email.

00:13:29   You know, usually just the subject, just here's what I'm talking about with this arrow pointing

00:13:33   into this thing in the screenshot, if it even needed any text.

00:13:36   So I kind of figured that if most of the sharing targets of whatever you're going to do next

00:13:45   after you draw the arrow and box on the screenshot, if the next step in your workflow is going

00:13:50   to involve text input, which almost all of them do, then I kind of figured text was less

00:13:55   important for this app.

00:13:57   And so I wouldn't mind adding it at some point, but I don't think it's ever going to be worth

00:14:02   the time to really do it well.

00:14:03   and I don't want to do it badly.

00:14:05   - Right.

00:14:06   Now, to further delay Jon and make him even more grumbly,

00:14:09   why not iOS 7 only?

00:14:11   I mean, obviously, if you wanted to release it today--

00:14:13   - Well, I can't, that's the problem.

00:14:14   - Well, right, but why not hold it?

00:14:15   Why not wait?

00:14:16   - Well, because it's really useful right now.

00:14:18   As everyone's apps are breaking under iOS 7,

00:14:22   it's including Apple's and the OS itself.

00:14:25   It's very useful.

00:14:26   Like, that's one of the reasons why

00:14:28   I decided to make this app right now

00:14:30   is because I'm constantly finding UI glitches with 7,

00:14:33   whether it's in the OS or other people's apps running on 7,

00:14:36   there's so many problems.

00:14:38   Because so many things are different.

00:14:40   So many of the Apple apps are really rewritten

00:14:43   or have really kind of rough edges still.

00:14:47   So for this to be most effective for me

00:14:51   and I think for a lot of people, I really

00:14:53   had to get it out there now during the iOS 7 beta.

00:14:56   And so that's why it doesn't require iOS 7, basically,

00:14:58   because I can't.

00:15:00   Fair enough.

00:15:01   All right, I'm sorry, John.

00:15:02   Please, take the floor.

00:15:04   All right, some of my complaints are things

00:15:06   that Marco had to omit.

00:15:08   And he already named a couple of them.

00:15:10   The one where you can't draw a box inside a box,

00:15:12   Casey got that one, and Marco--

00:15:13   Oh, that's fixed for 101.

00:15:14   There you go.

00:15:15   And I was thinking of saving the screenshots and the annotations

00:15:22   separately within the app's documents silo,

00:15:27   basically as a roundabout way to get the same thing you were

00:15:30   about where you'd have some sort of process whereby you went through the screenshots and

00:15:35   did something with them and then they would go someplace else and they would disappear

00:15:38   from the main list and saving the annotations and the shots separately would be so that

00:15:42   if you changed your mind later you hadn't, you know, that was my solution to unhiding

00:15:46   the screenshot that you don't see it on the main screenshot list anymore but you see it

00:15:50   in your ones that you've dealt with and when you see it there if you change your mind and

00:15:53   want to report a different thing you can add a different set of annotations to the same

00:15:55   same image. But anyway, you already talked about those. The ones you could do, although

00:16:00   you already put out 101 already. No, I haven't submitted yet. I'm working on it today.

00:16:04   See, that was one of the things I was trying to figure out. What version of this do I have?

00:16:07   And from the device, there's no way for me to tell inside your application, in iOS at

00:16:11   all, what version I'm using. Is there some way in settings? I looked. I didn't see any

00:16:16   way to get a version number out of it. But anyway, the toolbar buttons on top, I haven't

00:16:21   and used iOS 7 enough to know if this is accurate,

00:16:24   but they highlight on mouse down to use Mac problems.

00:16:28   Yes, I was actually just talking to John Gruber about that.

00:16:32   He complained about the same thing.

00:16:34   And so there's two problems.

00:16:37   One is that I did not implement a highlight state,

00:16:41   and so I'm going to do that in 101.

00:16:44   Basically, these controls are all mimicking iOS 7 style,

00:16:47   or totally ripping it off.

00:16:50   And so I am going to do that, the highlight state.

00:16:53   But I actually don't know.

00:16:55   I'd love to hear from users, or from listeners,

00:16:58   although I probably won't hear it in time

00:17:00   before I submit 101.

00:17:03   As far-- and this is a really nitpicky detail--

00:17:05   but as far as I can tell, I can't figure out

00:17:09   if there is a good way for a UI segmented control, which

00:17:12   is what this is.

00:17:13   This is a real segmented control, just using UI appearance

00:17:16   to customize the way it looks.

00:17:19   I can't figure out how, with UI Segmented Control,

00:17:22   to do the thing where if you tap down and then drag

00:17:26   your finger out and release, it doesn't trigger it.

00:17:30   This is really technical.

00:17:31   I'm sorry.

00:17:31   But I'm using the UI Control Event value changed mode here.

00:17:36   And I tried the Control Event touch up inside,

00:17:40   which is usually how you'd do that.

00:17:41   And that didn't work.

00:17:42   It still just fired upon touchdown.

00:17:45   So I don't really know how to do that.

00:17:48   I only spent like two minutes looking at it because it was right before the show.

00:17:52   So I'll look at that later.

00:17:53   But I might not be able to fix that easily.

00:17:55   We'll see.

00:17:56   That's debatable at this point whether it would be more expedient for you to go full

00:18:01   Briktor on it and just draw yourself around Rekt and do your own hit testing and like,

00:18:04   you know what I mean?

00:18:05   Well, that's definitely not worth it.

00:18:06   Definitely not.

00:18:07   Well, I mean, but like if you're trying to take segmented control and figure out how

00:18:11   to—like if there's no event forward or you're trying to figure out some way to

00:18:13   get it to do what you want, you could burn a lot of time trying to make the existing

00:18:16   control do what you want.

00:18:17   And if you had spent that same amount of time simply implementing your own really simple

00:18:22   control, it might end up being a washer, it might end up being faster.

00:18:25   It probably also depends if you're Lauren Briktor, because she has a little bit more

00:18:29   experience making her own widgets from scratch.

00:18:33   If I were Lauren Briktor, I would have written this entire UI in OpenGL and re-implemented

00:18:37   every part of UIKit in my own awesome, better way and spent six months making this app.

00:18:43   But unfortunately, I can't justify that amount of time, and I'm not Lauren Briktor, and so

00:18:47   so it would take me way longer than it would take him.

00:18:50   So unfortunately, that's not going to be an option.

00:18:53   But I would like to get that detail right about the tuck

00:18:56   shop and tuck downstate.

00:18:57   So iOS 7 doesn't do that then, right?

00:18:59   Because I was wondering, maybe this is how iOS 7 does it,

00:19:02   and you're just faithfully reproducing.

00:19:03   Well, no.

00:19:04   Gruber pointed out that on the notification center segment

00:19:07   of control, the all events or today,

00:19:09   like the thing on top notification center,

00:19:12   that behaves properly in what you guys are talking about.

00:19:15   And so, but again, I haven't had much time to look at it yet.

00:19:17   Probably right after we record the show, I will spend another 20 minutes on it and figure

00:19:20   out the solution.

00:19:21   But right now, I don't have it.

00:19:22   And I don't know if it's going to be easy or not.

00:19:25   So on the screenshot list, the highlight issue there is that there is no highlight.

00:19:30   It just zooms the image up, and there's no dimming it or doing any sort of highlight

00:19:35   to let you know that you let go of your finger, and the thing zooms up to full size, but there's

00:19:39   no highlight.

00:19:40   And that seems odd to me.

00:19:41   Oh, that's interesting.

00:19:42   That I can probably fix.

00:19:44   That's the collection view.

00:19:45   That's Apple's collection view, right?

00:19:47   Yeah, it is.

00:19:49   And this is actually the first time I've ever used a collection view.

00:19:52   So I don't know whether this is the responsibility of the view,

00:19:55   or more likely, it's probably the responsibility of the cell

00:19:58   to implement that.

00:19:59   So I will look at that.

00:20:00   Yeah, and the collection view was flaking out.

00:20:03   I can't tell-- I haven't been able to reproduce this one.

00:20:05   I should have screenshotted it, but I was like,

00:20:06   I'm sure I'll be able to reproduce this.

00:20:07   Let me screenshot it, but no.

00:20:09   So when you go into landscape, it changes the layout of the thing.

00:20:13   And then when you go back into portrait,

00:20:15   briefly it's two columns, and then it

00:20:16   goes back to three columns.

00:20:18   And it got stuck in two columns for me for a while.

00:20:21   But then I would just fiddle around with it some more.

00:20:23   Now I can't get it to get stuck.

00:20:24   But that's almost certainly a collection view

00:20:26   bug of some kind.

00:20:27   And probably not your bug, but I would

00:20:29   watch for it in your travels through the application.

00:20:31   One of the things I did that was actually

00:20:34   a surprising amount of the coding

00:20:36   and the getting things wrong and then figuring out

00:20:38   how to get things right was handling rotation.

00:20:42   Because I didn't want to-- so basically, the app only ever

00:20:48   presents screenshots full screen at 100% scale.

00:20:52   There is no zoom.

00:20:54   There is no panning or anything.

00:20:56   And this was all for simplicity and speed of dealing with it.

00:20:59   So the whole point of this app is

00:21:04   to get in and get out very quickly.

00:21:05   To do what you have to do.

00:21:06   Because just like any good workflow tool,

00:21:09   you don't want the tool to be slowing you down necessarily.

00:21:11   So the app, the collection, the list view,

00:21:16   does support rotation.

00:21:18   But the drawing view does not.

00:21:20   And so there's all sorts of weird complexity of like,

00:21:23   well, if you're in portrait orientation in the list

00:21:27   and you select a landscape screenshot,

00:21:29   then the whole app basically forces itself

00:21:31   to be in landscape mode during the editing.

00:21:33   So you've got to turn the phone on the side.

00:21:35   And then once you're done, it switches back to landscape

00:21:38   if it needs to.

00:21:38   There's all sorts of complexity like that,

00:21:42   or of implementation complexity to get around

00:21:46   the need for zooming and scaling, basically.

00:21:50   So there's a few things about that I'm not 100% happy with.

00:21:54   One thing I'm not happy with is how images appear

00:22:00   in their native orientation in the list.

00:22:03   And so if you have a mixture of portrait and landscape

00:22:06   screenshots in your camera roll, then the layout gets really inefficient and gappy and

00:22:13   it just kind of doesn't look good.

00:22:15   I'm playing with different options there.

00:22:17   I tried some of them during development and I just didn't like any other alternatives,

00:22:21   so here we are with this.

00:22:22   But you just rotate them all to portrait.

00:22:25   I tried that and there were, first of all, a lot of difficulties doing that well, but

00:22:32   It didn't really look great, and it didn't handle rotation that well.

00:22:38   I might revisit that at some point, but it was not good.

00:22:43   I thought that would be the answer, but it wasn't.

00:22:45   And my final complaint was that the one I gave you last week.

00:22:47   The first thing I thought of is, after I draw these little overlay things, particularly

00:22:51   arrows, can I manipulate them after the fact?

00:22:53   And you can move them, but you can't resize them or reorient them after the fact.

00:22:57   And I would expect anything that lets me draw a little rectangle gives me anchor points

00:23:01   in the four corners so I can resize the rectangle and anything that's major an arrow lets me

00:23:05   twist the arrow around and stretch it out to make it longer or shorter. I mean like

00:23:08   it, moving it pretty much solves the problem of like how do I make it an arrow precisely

00:23:15   point to something because if you start where I first tap with my fat finger that's not

00:23:19   very accurate but if you do it the other way where you start with the stem then as I drag

00:23:23   out to the thing I'm trying to point to my finger is covering it anyway. So there's no

00:23:27   good solution there. You have to get some after manipulation, and you allow moving after,

00:23:31   which allows you to reorient it. But basically, if the overlays were sort of persistently

00:23:37   vector shapes instead of being rasterized and just being able to be moved around.

00:23:42   Well, and they actually, in the code, they are, and the rectangles can be scaled if you

00:23:47   pinch them. The arrows cannot. I did not figure out that rectangle thing.

00:23:51   I spent a while trying to resize those rectangles, and all I'd ever do was move them. I guess

00:23:54   I guess maybe I'm pinching outside them.

00:23:56   You've got to start inside, I guess.

00:23:58   Yeah.

00:23:59   And one of the problems is just on the iPhone,

00:24:01   there really isn't a whole lot of space

00:24:03   to do pinching and rotation gestures.

00:24:05   And it's really, really hard to do it

00:24:07   with any kind of precision on the iPhone.

00:24:08   On the iPad, of course, it's a different story.

00:24:10   But for me, I'm using this mostly on the phone.

00:24:11   And so whatever decisions you make

00:24:13   have to work well on the phone for this.

00:24:17   And so one big thing is I don't think-- well,

00:24:23   I tried very briefly in early development having pinch and rotate enabled on all shapes.

00:24:30   And it didn't work that well. It was just very hard, again, with precision. It was very

00:24:35   hard to do it, especially to accidentally or to avoid accidentally rotating something

00:24:41   when you're supposed to be pinching it. When you combine rotation and scaling simultaneously

00:24:46   in the same gesture, it kind of behaves weirdly and there's these weird edge cases you can

00:24:50   get. And so there were a number of things that just didn't feel good with having that

00:24:57   in place.

00:24:58   You probably have to go modal like those old apps where you tap the thing and that makes

00:25:02   the little anchor things appear. And then when you select one of the anchors, it's clear

00:25:06   if you are now in rotation or scaling mode.

00:25:08   Right.

00:25:09   And like the hit areas, hit areas all increase. Like a full-fledged vector drawing app on

00:25:13   the iPhone would. But that also falls under the scope thing of like, okay, now you're

00:25:17   getting into, you know.

00:25:18   Well, and then every one of those things that you add, that needs UI. And a lot of times

00:25:23   that needs state, as you said. And so it adds so much complexity to using the app and to

00:25:27   building the app that it very, very quickly balloons in both scope of development and

00:25:34   also just different modes the app can be in and different ways it could slow people down

00:25:39   or confuse them.

00:25:40   But right after you sell the first 50,000 copies of this app, then you've got to get

00:25:43   it working on this feature list.

00:25:45   Okay. If I sell 50,000 copies, I would consider doing that, yes.

00:25:48   Right now I'm at something like a thousand I think so.

00:25:52   That's pretty impressive.

00:25:53   And actually I thought of one other complaint that I had when we were, when I was looking

00:25:57   at it last weekend.

00:25:58   I apparently am the only person on the planet that likes Shake to Undo because I went to

00:26:03   try that and complained about it.

00:26:05   I tried it too Casey.

00:26:06   Thank you John.

00:26:07   I complained about it and Marco definitely said in so many words you're insane for even

00:26:12   wanting that.

00:26:13   And I want to say underscore agreed with you but I don't recall.

00:26:16   So apologies underscore if I'm putting words in your mouth.

00:26:17   I think you're right.

00:26:18   I think we both agreed, again, apologies if this is wrong, David, but I think we both

00:26:22   agreed that shaking your phone is ridiculous and it should never do anything because it's

00:26:26   ridiculous.

00:26:27   It is ridiculous, but I did try it.

00:26:28   I do find myself trying it because I do want to undo it a lot of the times, and although

00:26:32   shaking is ridiculous, it's kind of the "you don't need a UI button for it, but

00:26:38   maybe it'll work," and sometimes it does, and it makes me feel good when it does, even

00:26:41   though I'm shaking my iPod.

00:26:43   Todd.

00:26:44   But all in all, it certainly is a really interesting exercise in doing a small app and, just like

00:26:53   you've been discussing this entire time, cutting out what you don't need.

00:26:57   Being able to spin an arrow or re-anchor an arrow I think would be nice, but to your point

00:27:02   a minute ago, if it's not done well, I'd rather not even have it.

00:27:07   And I've come to that conclusion, I think, after seeing Apple make that choice so many

00:27:10   times like copy paste early on in iOS for example.

00:27:15   So it certainly, I can't say I've had to use it yet because I'm not partly, because I'm

00:27:20   not running iOS 7, but it certainly made a lot of sense and I thought it was very intuitive

00:27:24   with almost no UI.

00:27:26   So I thought it was a job well done.

00:27:28   Thank you.

00:27:29   And you know another issue with adding these things, like you know even when I, in development

00:27:34   when I briefly had the text tool in the toolbar, that toolbar gets really crowded really quickly.

00:27:38   And right now, with the cancel button on one side,

00:27:42   the action button on the other,

00:27:43   and the two buttons in the middle,

00:27:44   on an iPhone in portrait orientation,

00:27:47   that tool bar is pretty much full already.

00:27:50   And so the question is,

00:27:51   like if I wanted to add like a color picker,

00:27:55   or additional tools, text,

00:27:57   or like somebody in the chat just suggested

00:28:00   like a redaction blur or blackout,

00:28:02   to like blackout sensitive information

00:28:04   that's in the screenshot, that's a good idea.

00:28:06   But like where's that gonna go in the interface?

00:28:08   And as soon as I go beyond one toolbar,

00:28:11   then the interface becomes a lot bigger and heavier.

00:28:13   Like, the whole point of this is to annotate screenshots

00:28:16   at 100%.

00:28:18   So there really isn't a whole lot of room

00:28:20   to crowd the screen with buttons and stuff.

00:28:22   And it's just like, that toolbar is already full,

00:28:26   so what do you do?

00:28:27   Right?

00:28:28   There's no-- again, there's no good option.

00:28:31   And so a lot of times the answer is just, well, you know what?

00:28:34   It's better to just keep it simple.

00:28:36   And yeah, and another reason why I didn't really

00:28:39   go for more tools is because I think an arrow in a box,

00:28:43   that's the essence of this kind of tool.

00:28:45   There are other more specialized things that might be nice.

00:28:48   Like, oh, maybe you want to draw a circle

00:28:50   or an actual rectangle that's not rounded corners.

00:28:53   Or hell, a triangle.

00:28:54   If you want to animate something with a big hollow triangle,

00:28:57   I'm sure somebody wants to do that.

00:28:59   And there are cases where more specialized tools would

00:29:03   be better.

00:29:04   But to have an app with all that stuff in it, it very quickly becomes Illustrator.

00:29:08   And that's a very different thing.

00:29:10   Like the show opening, I think it was the show opening last week that you threw in there.

00:29:15   The thing I suggested when we were talking about this after the last recording session

00:29:18   was that you could…you've got box and arrow.

00:29:22   Replace box and arrow with the ability to draw a free form with your hand and then an

00:29:28   item lets you just pick color and transparency.

00:29:30   Like a popover lets you pick color and transparency.

00:29:32   So then you've got redaction circles arrows, you know, you got my yellow highlighter that I want 50% transparent yellow

00:29:38   You know default like and then you just draw with your finger on things and yeah, you can't make a precise arrow

00:29:42   But you can circle things you can redact things you could square put squares around things

00:29:45   It produces a different result than

00:29:48   The type of thing you'll see from this where you get a nice rounded rectangle and a nice arrow pointing it and stuff

00:29:54   Maybe it's less precise as well, but you would have enough toolbar space for

00:29:59   For basically for that it would be like I guess just one toolbar button or maybe you could put two one for color and one

00:30:04   For transparency you can do them both on if you did a popover because there's no tool selection

00:30:09   the only tool you have is I guess maybe like

00:30:11   Brush size or something. But anyway, that would that would be a different way to go with this instead of

00:30:15   Vector art go with you know finger painting

00:30:18   Yeah, I mean yeah and certainly like, you know having like basically a pencil tool

00:30:22   Would cover a lot of that right like if you just if you just added a third tool and it was a pencil

00:30:27   that would definitely cover a lot of these cases.

00:30:29   But again, there's a whole lot of UI state that you have to add to that then.

00:30:34   Like, you know, once you draw the thing, then do you pick the color afterwards

00:30:39   or do you try to shove the color thing somewhere on the bar somehow

00:30:42   and invent space out of nothing?

00:30:44   And then the more things you add to the bar, even if you can make them fit,

00:30:47   then they necessarily have to be smaller each,

00:30:50   and so then it increases the chances of somebody hitting the wrong thing

00:30:53   and being frustrated or doing something they don't want to do or losing data.

00:30:56   I was saying replace the box and the arrow with the brush.

00:31:00   You know what I mean?

00:31:01   Two replacement things.

00:31:03   Just brush and color/transparent.

00:31:05   You'd still need some kind of overlay or dialogue

00:31:08   or something to pick the color and the transparency

00:31:10   because that's too much control to put in a toolbar.

00:31:12   But if that's the only thing in the toolbar,

00:31:14   you've got room for the one button to pick size

00:31:16   and the other button to pick color and transparency.

00:31:20   Yeah, I guess.

00:31:22   Oh, and it's funny.

00:31:23   pan and scan in the chat just said

00:31:25   zoom would be a handy feature.

00:31:28   The problem with zoom is that it conflicts with gestures

00:31:31   for everything else.

00:31:32   So if you had pinks to zoom, for instance,

00:31:34   then you can no longer pinch on a rectangle to resize it.

00:31:38   It could be the first iOS app with a plus button

00:31:40   in the corner that you hit and it zooms by increments,

00:31:42   plus, plus, plus, plus.

00:31:43   That will give you the ratings.

00:31:45   That'll get you to the 88.

00:31:46   Honestly, I bet I'm not the first.

00:31:47   I know.

00:31:48   I'm sure you're not the first system out there that probably

00:31:51   uses a greater than or less than sign on a UI button

00:31:54   to do it, like zooming in and out.

00:31:57   All right, let's go to our first sponsor

00:31:59   before I forget to do sponsors this episode,

00:32:01   because we're a half hour in.

00:32:03   Our first sponsor is a new sponsor this week.

00:32:06   It's an iOS game called Mind Blitz.

00:32:09   Mind Blitz is a twist on the traditional memory matching

00:32:13   game, where you flip over cards and you

00:32:15   try to remember what card is where,

00:32:16   and then you try to pair them up with the matching cards.

00:32:20   It's like that with action puzzle elements.

00:32:23   So it's a beautifully designed game.

00:32:25   They have achievements, high scores,

00:32:27   power ups, penalty cards.

00:32:30   They have different gameplay modes.

00:32:31   There's a blitz mode and endless mode.

00:32:33   And this is really like a very deluxe,

00:32:36   fancy action version of that old memory card game.

00:32:39   In blitz mode, you flip over the cards

00:32:42   to match corresponding pairs,

00:32:43   and then you fill up this power meter

00:32:44   with every match you make,

00:32:46   and you get points and then you can redeem the points

00:32:48   for power up cards.

00:32:49   And then in endless mode, the player

00:32:51   competes for the fastest time without the worry

00:32:53   of the timer or penalty cards.

00:32:54   It's just fastest time to complete matches.

00:32:58   And it's like a more pure version of the memory game.

00:33:01   And it's beautifully designed.

00:33:03   I even had some suggestions for the developer.

00:33:06   The developer bought the sponsorship probably

00:33:09   like two or three months ago now.

00:33:10   It was pretty far, pretty long ago.

00:33:12   And I had a few suggestions for adjusting

00:33:15   some of the timings on some of the things.

00:33:17   And sure enough, he improved them, they're done,

00:33:22   and they're in the app.

00:33:24   And he's very responsive to suggestions,

00:33:26   but the app is just really, really solid.

00:33:28   I really enjoy playing it.

00:33:30   It's a universal app.

00:33:31   This is MindBlitz.

00:33:33   Universal app, just $2.00, $1.99 in the App Store.

00:33:36   So search the App Store for MindBlitz, two words,

00:33:39   or go to mindblitzapp.com/atp to find it.

00:33:43   You guys played this game, right?

00:33:45   Did it look like this before iOS 7 came out?

00:33:48   Yeah, that was always the style.

00:33:51   It is very iOS 7-y, right down to the icon, I think, too.

00:33:54   If you look at the icon, that would fit in with the new Johnny Ive color scheme for the

00:34:01   standard built-in icons.

00:34:02   Now, I play memory games like this with my daughter a lot, where you have to put the

00:34:06   physical cards on the ground and get them all set up, and I think we actually have an

00:34:10   odd number of them, so one of them ends up always not having a match, and setting up

00:34:13   the cards and cleaning them like you... yeah, I'm definitely ready to jack into cyberspace

00:34:20   and not have to...

00:34:21   What?

00:34:21   To not have to...

00:34:23   To what?

00:34:24   You know, what they used to say in the 90s, man, no more physical stuff, everything's gonna happen

00:34:28   on the interweb. So they didn't say interwebs back then. But anyway,

00:34:31   they definitely did say jacking into cyberspace. Yeah, it's nice not to have to clean up the cards,

00:34:35   is what I'm getting at. And for people who are playing this game by themselves, you don't have

00:34:41   to wait for the sound to finish playing to go for your next pair, so it's possible,

00:34:46   if you're fast, to have many more than two cards visible at a time. A little tip there

00:34:52   for people trying to hone their high scores, but I enjoyed it.

00:34:55   Actually, that was one of my suggestions to the developer was in the mechanics of when

00:35:01   you have more than two cards flipped over, like how you know whether a match has succeeded

00:35:06   or failed. And yeah, he's very responsive. Really, this game is a fantastic implementation.

00:35:12   It really is like a deluxe action card memory game. And it's bringing the best of the old

00:35:19   with John's cyberspace jacking. And it really is great.

00:35:23   My cyberspace jacking. It's like William Gibson's or something.

00:35:26   Oh, goodness. No, it really is a great game. And the thing that bothers me about this game,

00:35:31   though, which I know I shouldn't complain about sponsors, but it just proves to me how

00:35:34   crummy my memory is because I am terrible at this game and it's because I have the world's

00:35:40   worst memory.

00:35:41   Wait, John, how old is your kid that plays this game?

00:35:43   Oh, don't even go there.

00:35:44   Six years old.

00:35:45   But I'm pretty good at the game.

00:35:47   Maybe I've been honed from practicing on the rug with a six-year-old, but I think the thing

00:35:51   that really helps in this game is the really deep saturated colors they have.

00:35:54   A lot of times I'm matching by color, not even the symbols.

00:35:56   You know what I mean?

00:35:57   Yeah, that helps a lot.

00:35:58   I mean, there's so many nice little touches.

00:35:59   It really is a very polished game.

00:36:02   So all right, thanks a lot to MindBlitz.

00:36:04   Go to mindblitzapp.com/atp or search for MindBlitz,

00:36:09   two words, in the App Store.

00:36:10   $2, Universal App, great game.

00:36:12   Thanks a lot.

00:36:13   - All right, so another thing I wanted to ask you

00:36:15   about Marco, since apparently this is turning

00:36:17   into the Marco Show, you've been fiddling a lot

00:36:20   with network attached storage these days.

00:36:22   - It's pronounced Nas.

00:36:23   - Now, how is that different from the thing

00:36:26   you're putting in the M5?

00:36:27   (laughing)

00:36:28   - Oh, it doesn't need that, believe me.

00:36:29   - No, it does not.

00:36:30   No, it does not.

00:36:31   No, but tell me about what you—I know you were seeking different options if you were

00:36:36   talking—even when we were at WWDC, I remember being in line for Presidio once, and you were

00:36:40   talking about, "Should I go Drobo?

00:36:42   Should I go Synology?" or whatever it's called.

00:36:45   What did you end up concluding, and how's that going?

00:36:47   So I should disclose.

00:36:48   So basically, I decided through various research and Twitter mentions, I decided to go with

00:36:53   Synology.

00:36:54   Synology?

00:36:55   Did we ever decide what that is?

00:36:57   Anyway.

00:36:58   I don't think so.

00:36:59   - Well, I'm the sponsor of the show,

00:37:00   and then they can send you a pronunciation guide.

00:37:01   - Okay.

00:37:02   So anyway, I'm gonna say Sinology,

00:37:04   'cause that's how I say it in my head.

00:37:05   So, until somebody corrects me, authoritatively.

00:37:09   All right, so anyway, I decided to get a Sinology,

00:37:12   and I ordered it from Amazon,

00:37:14   and it was like a Saturday night,

00:37:16   so it wasn't gonna ship for like another day and a half

00:37:19   or something like that.

00:37:20   And between the time I ordered it

00:37:22   and when it was going to ship,

00:37:23   a representative from Sinology saw me

00:37:26   tweeting about this stuff and offered

00:37:27   to just send me the thing for free,

00:37:28   which is very, very nice of them.

00:37:30   And so I canceled my Amazon order,

00:37:31   and they very generously sent me the one

00:37:35   I was going to get for free, just so I could

00:37:37   have some experience with it.

00:37:39   And they aren't sponsoring the show,

00:37:40   but that was a very nice thing of them to do.

00:37:42   And so it's worth mentioning that.

00:37:43   It also obviously is required for probably sensible disclosure

00:37:48   reasons for me to tell you that.

00:37:51   Anyway, so I've had a lot of time with it.

00:37:55   And I still have a lot to do with it.

00:37:59   I haven't done that much just because I filled it up

00:38:01   with a whole bunch of one, two, and four terabyte hard drives

00:38:05   that I had lying around.

00:38:06   So it takes a pretty long time to alter anything

00:38:12   that involves 12 terabytes of raw storage.

00:38:16   But it's the kind of thing, oh, let me try this volume

00:38:20   and this other kind of structure.

00:38:21   All right, start.

00:38:22   And I'll come back midday tomorrow.

00:38:24   be done.

00:38:25   Now, let me interrupt you real quick.

00:38:27   I should have asked you to start off.

00:38:28   What problem or problems were you looking to solve by getting this device?

00:38:32   That's a very good question.

00:38:33   All right, so the main reason I wanted to get into network attack storage is that I've

00:38:40   always loved having internal hard drives in the Mac Pro, as we've talked about many

00:38:43   times before, just like John.

00:38:45   I love internal drives because what I really, really hate more than anything is a desk covered

00:38:51   in hard drive enclosures.

00:38:52   because hard drive enclosures are terrible.

00:38:54   They have usually either really bad cooling or no cooling.

00:38:59   So it results in either a tiny 40 millimeter rattly fan

00:39:04   on your desk all the time going and making too much noise,

00:39:07   or no cooling, and then the hard drive overheats and dies

00:39:09   in a year and a half.

00:39:10   Either way is bad.

00:39:12   And enclosures are kind of overpriced

00:39:16   if you get them empty.

00:39:17   And if you get them full, like directly from people

00:39:21   like Seagate and Western Digital,

00:39:23   then they usually have really kind of oddly cheap

00:39:26   construction and just kind of weird.

00:39:29   And it's very hard to get one that's not USB,

00:39:31   that's actually reasonably priced.

00:39:33   Like USB ones are always cheap,

00:39:34   but historically if you wanted to get good speed,

00:39:37   you'd have to go like Firewire 800

00:39:39   and those were very expensive.

00:39:41   These days you have Thunderbolt or USB 3 to choose from,

00:39:44   although at least USB 3 is finally good.

00:39:46   But anyway, I don't like little individual disk enclosures

00:39:50   and I don't like having to have them on my desk,

00:39:52   and having more wires and more things that make noise

00:39:55   right in front of me, and more power bricks,

00:39:57   and all this stuff.

00:39:58   - Yeah, that's what I was gonna say,

00:39:59   don't forget the stupid power adapters.

00:40:00   Because every single one of the drives

00:40:01   needs to have its own cheap little terrible power adapter

00:40:05   and brick that you need to,

00:40:06   like it's always like a brick

00:40:07   and then a cord hanging from it,

00:40:08   so you've got these bricks littering the floor

00:40:11   and you need to find someplace to put them.

00:40:12   - Exactly.

00:40:13   - And the plugs, yeah, I just ordered a new drive enclosure

00:40:16   now that we're complaining about them.

00:40:18   - Wait, what'd you get?

00:40:19   I've been getting these ones from Other World Computing.

00:40:24   It's not—

00:40:25   The Mercury Elite Pro?

00:40:26   Yeah.

00:40:27   They're not my favorite, but they're not terrible.

00:40:30   They're kind of terrible.

00:40:32   I like their construction, but they're very expensive.

00:40:35   I don't like much about them, but I have had several of them, and unlike almost every other

00:40:39   conclusion I've gotten, the power bricks have not died.

00:40:42   So thumbs up on that.

00:40:43   Although they are big and bulky.

00:40:45   Yeah, because that's the big thing.

00:40:47   power brick is the weakest component in these things. And the power brick dies and then

00:40:50   you're just left with this useless thing. And no, I got it because I have spare drives

00:40:54   hanging around and I'm doing lots of Mavericks testing. And I'm like, you know, I bet I could

00:40:58   really use one more spare drives. And I have the mechanisms. I just have, I don't want

00:41:01   to keep like swapping them in and out of my Mac Pro and I need to be able to hook it up

00:41:04   to a laptop. So I just go, all right, let me just get one more enclosure. And I looked

00:41:08   around for like Thunderbolt enclosures, but it's like, no, I don't want to spend that

00:41:12   much money. Just so I bought another one.

00:41:14   Well, and the problem is Thunderbolt won't work on your Mac Pro.

00:41:17   It won't work on any of my computers that I would need to test on, yeah.

00:41:20   So I bought another one, but yeah, I'm in the same situation as Marco.

00:41:23   I like my internal drives, and I'm sure what he's leading to is that, you know, eventually

00:41:27   we're going to get computers, like, probably both going to get the Mac Pro, and if we do,

00:41:31   no internal storage there.

00:41:32   That's exactly it.

00:41:33   I mean, and it isn't just about that.

00:41:35   It's, you know, if you can move to a world where you don't need a whole bunch of internal

00:41:38   drives, then that enables you to switch to the new Mac Pro if you want to, or to switch

00:41:45   to a laptop full time, or to switch to an iMac without having a desk covered in hard

00:41:49   drive enclosures.

00:41:50   There's all sorts of benefits of simplifying your setup and adding flexibility to shifting

00:41:55   a lot of this stuff to a network attack storage box.

00:41:58   Also, just for physical reasons, I like not having that crap all over my desk.

00:42:03   A network attack, I can put anywhere in the house that has networking, and if you're willing

00:42:08   tolerate wireless, you can put it really anywhere. For me, I like things wired, but when I had

00:42:13   my house construction, I did run Cat5 wiring or Cat6 wiring to most of the rooms. So I

00:42:19   actually have mine in what's basically my server closet, which is just the closet in

00:42:24   my office that I had them install an outlet and two network ports in. So that's where

00:42:29   I keep the router and the printer and all the crap.

00:42:32   Are you worried about heat inside a closet?

00:42:35   I was worried. It is a very big closet. And so basically, my stress test was I filled

00:42:43   the Synology with eight disks and had it like restructure the array, rebuild the array by

00:42:49   replacing one of the disks. And then I closed the door and left in July for eight hours.

00:42:55   And then I came back and opened the door and it was like one degree hotter than the room

00:43:02   next to it. So it wasn't a meaningful problem, I don't think.

00:43:07   Anyway, and I still, because it's the closet that's like 10 feet from my chair, I still

00:43:13   go over there and walk in periodically to check the temperature to make sure it's not

00:43:16   getting too hot. But so far it never has. So I don't think it's going to be a problem.

00:43:20   Anyway, so my goal really here was, as I said, flexibility. And so I can get away from requiring

00:43:29   a big hard drive or requiring multiple big hard drives in my main computer

00:43:33   because obviously that world is ending in Macs.

00:43:38   The current Mac Pro is the only one that can do that and it's going away.

00:43:43   So even the Retina MacBook Pro doesn't even have two bays anymore.

00:43:48   Like the old ones you could replace the DVD-ROM drive with a second hard drive bay,

00:43:53   which I did for a while. You could do that.

00:43:55   The new ones you can't do that.

00:43:57   The iMac still has two bays.

00:43:58   It has an SSD bay and a big drive bay.

00:44:00   But I bet the days of that are fairly numbered.

00:44:04   I bet that goes away probably within three or four years.

00:44:07   So obviously, we're moving away from having

00:44:10   any kind of replaceable drives in Macs,

00:44:12   let alone multiple bays.

00:44:14   And again, also, if you have network storage,

00:44:19   then you can also do things like get an SSD

00:44:23   for your only drive on your main computer,

00:44:24   or get a computer where SSDs are the only option,

00:44:26   and not be too constrained by the size of the SSD.

00:44:29   So all these things, very, very good, very important.

00:44:34   And basically, it's adding some slight time and investment now

00:44:41   to add a lot of flexibility in the future.

00:44:44   So that's why I decided to do this.

00:44:47   I've done a few things with it.

00:44:49   I have Time Machine running to it.

00:44:51   Right now, I have the drives as one giant array

00:44:54   using their dynamic resizing thing, which

00:44:56   is kind of similar to what Drobos do, I think.

00:44:58   I've never owned a Drobo, so I don't know exactly.

00:45:00   But I'm pretty sure it's the same kind of thing, which

00:45:03   is it's like a software dynamic raid where they kind of

00:45:10   dynamically manage the storage for you.

00:45:11   I don't think you have any kind of direct block access to it,

00:45:13   so they can do that.

00:45:14   So you can pop out a small drive and add a bigger drive,

00:45:17   and it expands the array to have more space, stuff like that.

00:45:21   So I'm trying that now.

00:45:23   The only thing I don't like about that setup

00:45:25   is that it requires all eight disks

00:45:28   to be reading and writing whenever anything's accessed.

00:45:31   And so it's loud, and it's keeping all of them

00:45:35   spined up almost all the time.

00:45:37   And it's just inefficient.

00:45:39   It's kind of inelegant.

00:45:40   So I think what I'm going to do-- I still

00:45:42   have enough spare drives lying around that I can move stuff

00:45:45   around pretty easily.

00:45:45   So I'm going to probably break that array tomorrow

00:45:49   or the next day and split it up into one for my time machine,

00:45:53   one for Tiff's time machine, and one for our big archive.

00:45:56   And maybe that one's expandable, but the time machines

00:45:58   aren't, et cetera.

00:46:01   One big concern here was backup.

00:46:03   And so you guys both have-- do you both have backblaze?

00:46:08   No, I use CrashPlan.

00:46:09   I have both.

00:46:10   Really?

00:46:10   I have both.

00:46:12   OK.

00:46:13   Really, I'm curious.

00:46:15   What's your split there, John?

00:46:16   What do you use each of them for?

00:46:18   My computer's backblaze, my wife's, is CrashPlan.

00:46:22   And that's more redundancy, I assume?

00:46:24   Yeah, basically.

00:46:25   I got back plays years and years ago.

00:46:27   I don't even know if Crash Planet was around,

00:46:29   or at least I didn't know about it then.

00:46:31   And when it came time to get a backup thing for my wife's

00:46:33   thing, I'm like, you know what?

00:46:34   Why don't I get a different one?

00:46:36   Mostly because Crash Planet had been getting good reviews,

00:46:38   and I wanted to give it a try.

00:46:39   And I figured if it's way better, then I'll switch.

00:46:41   And it's basically been a wash.

00:46:42   Like, there's advantages and disadvantages to both.

00:46:45   So I just feel a little bit better

00:46:46   having two different ones.

00:46:47   And yeah, it would probably be cheaper for me

00:46:49   to consolidate on one.

00:46:50   But I like having the two different ones.

00:46:51   And her computer is all SSD, there's no spinning disks.

00:46:54   So any problems from like inefficiencies due to CrashPlan being Java or something, I assume

00:47:01   they're being masked by her full SSD setup.

00:47:05   And so I'm happy with that there, and I'm happy with this here, and so I'm sticking

00:47:08   with it for now.

00:47:09   Yeah, I mean, for me, I actually have both also, but CrashPlan I basically bought for

00:47:14   my mom's computer.

00:47:16   And one thing that's nice about it is that it emails you a weekly, I think, report of

00:47:22   your backup status.

00:47:23   So I can tell, like, if my mom's computer hasn't been backed up in two months, I can

00:47:28   tell, you know, I should probably fix that somehow next time I go see her, or call her

00:47:31   and tell her how to fix it.

00:47:34   So it's nice when you want to be updated on the status of things.

00:47:38   It is very nice for that.

00:47:40   But my problem with CrashPlan is that from my house, it's just extremely slow to upload.

00:47:46   I've seen so many people online talking about similar problems with CrashPlan in particular.

00:47:50   It seems like a pretty widespread issue that even though I have this massive upstream pipe,

00:47:55   they can only use like 2.1 megabits of it.

00:47:58   And I tried all their tips,

00:48:00   every, like all their things like turn off encryption or change this buffer size or change this limit,

00:48:05   none of them had any effect on that cap. And it just seems like it just depends on like

00:48:10   whatever CrashPlan node is nearest to you, you know, whatever you get assigned to, like it,

00:48:15   Some of them are just slow or overcrowded and some of them are and so I basically can't use crash plan myself

00:48:20   Yeah, every time I've looked into that it's come down to like, you know

00:48:23   It's like your distance from the data center that that you're transferring stuff and it's like geography where you are

00:48:29   What ISP you're on what the route is to the server you're eventually connecting to and so like it's hard

00:48:34   Some people said all that means you shouldn't get crash plan

00:48:36   But it may be crash plan the crash plan know that you're gonna connect it was way closer to you

00:48:41   It has better connection than the back plays when you won't know until you try it for me

00:48:44   It's about even for both of them. Neither one of them ever fills my connection just because it's big.

00:48:48   But I get better than two megabits on both of them. I get like six, seven-ish,

00:48:53   varies sometimes up to nine on Backblaze. Crash Plan may be a little bit slower,

00:48:58   but I don't watch them that closely because really it's not, like once you get caught up,

00:49:02   it doesn't run for more than, you know, 20 minutes every night.

00:49:05   Right.

00:49:06   You know, it's funny you say that you didn't get good speech with Crash Plan because a friend of mine had recommended

00:49:10   Carbonite and I tried that and it was going to take about seven years for all my data

00:49:15   to upload to Carbonite.

00:49:16   And then I tried CrashPlan and this was, when I did my first upload, I want to say it was

00:49:20   like a year, year and a half ago, maybe more than that.

00:49:23   And it pretty much maxed my line for like a day and a half or something like that.

00:49:27   Now it could be that they're using a data center in Ashburn, which is in Northern Virginia,

00:49:31   which is only a couple hours drive from where we are and that would be somewhat significant

00:49:36   for both of you guys.

00:49:38   That's complete speculation.

00:49:39   I have no idea if that's right or not, but I think, John, you nailed it when you said

00:49:43   it.

00:49:44   It was luck of the draw.

00:49:45   CrashPlan worked for me and had a really good upload speed, although they have a god-awful

00:49:49   user interface and it's all Java-based like you guys said, and I hate it.

00:49:52   But the upload speeds were good and everything else seems to work reasonably well.

00:49:57   I do like getting those updates, so that's how I landed on CrashPlan.

00:50:01   It was mostly about upload speed, which is funny that you said it was terrible for you.

00:50:04   I'm assuming Marco's getting to this because he's going to talk about how online services

00:50:09   view his NAS, whether it's eligible for backup or not, right?

00:50:13   Yeah, exactly. Because that's the thing. Backblaze, I've used Backblaze from my computer

00:50:18   and TIFF's computer for I think about three years now, something like that. And we have

00:50:23   like I think a total of about three terabytes backed up between the two computers to it.

00:50:28   And it's fine. I restored a couple of files from it here and there, and it works. So I

00:50:32   I like Backblaze a lot, but Backblaze does not

00:50:34   back up network drives.

00:50:36   Now, I've heard-- I haven't tried this yet,

00:50:38   and I think I might play with this.

00:50:40   I've heard that if you mount it over iSCSI,

00:50:45   that because iSCSI is kind of treated by the OS

00:50:48   as a locally-attached disk, apparently Backblaze

00:50:52   can't tell the difference.

00:50:53   But I haven't confirmed this yet.

00:50:54   And so anyway, apparently if you mount iSCSI drives,

00:50:58   it will back those up.

00:50:59   But--

00:50:59   Yeah, that was my question about you mentioned--

00:51:02   you're doing Time Machine to it.

00:51:04   Is that one of those things where they're like,

00:51:06   well, it's not officially supported by Apple,

00:51:08   but the NAS manufacturer figures out

00:51:10   how to make their thing work.

00:51:11   And every time there's an OS update,

00:51:12   you have to wait for the NAS thing to update to work with it?

00:51:15   Is that--

00:51:15   Maybe.

00:51:16   They certainly-- they have implemented in their software,

00:51:19   they have some kind of Time Machine server,

00:51:21   and it does work.

00:51:22   I don't know if Apple has documented this in any way.

00:51:26   Probably not.

00:51:27   Because like, NASes have been doing that since Time Machine

00:51:29   has existed.

00:51:30   And every time there's an update, everyone who has one of these things who isn't tech-savvy

00:51:34   is like, "Oh, my thing broke.

00:51:35   Why is it?"

00:51:36   I mean, you have to understand, they're making it work, and it's not a big deal, but it's

00:51:41   big enough deal that Apple's not being careful to make sure they don't break it every OS

00:51:44   update, especially major OS updates.

00:51:47   And so that's why I've been worried about a NAS, because direct-attached storage, particularly

00:51:53   like direct SATA storage, which is right in there, is the most problem-free way to do

00:51:58   time machine.

00:51:59   external firewire I find ever so slightly flakier than internal drive. My wife has firewire,

00:52:06   although with her system, who knows, it could be the Thunderbolt bridge and stuff like that.

00:52:10   I have a big firewire drive attached for her, occasional time machines.

00:52:15   Well, in theory, iSCSI would fix that problem. You'd still have to get the iSCSI initiator

00:52:20   to work on the new version of OS X.

00:52:22   Yeah, that's the thing. Then you're like, "Okay, well, it's fine. The time machine is

00:52:26   fine with it, but does the iSCSI driver work with Mavericks, for example? And how long

00:52:30   do you have to wait for them to update the iSCSI driver, and how reliable is that driver?

00:52:34   Those are the details. Or even stuff like—I guess SuperDuper doesn't care at all.

00:52:37   Well, one of us would be in a position to test that, John.

00:52:40   Yeah. You could download Mavericks, too, right?

00:52:43   I guess I could. I have all these drives sitting around.

00:52:46   Yeah. I suppose if you run with this setup for a while, and you're like, "Okay, well,

00:52:52   whatever they did, time machine works fine, and presumably you'll eventually upgrade

00:52:56   to Mavericks and you say, "Okay, well, time machine works fine and I can super-duper do

00:52:59   it and Crash Planner or whatever sees it and backs it up," then that'll be fine. I won't

00:53:04   be that scared to do it. But I wouldn't want to be the one to find out by buying the big

00:53:08   expensive NAS and then trying to get my backup regime to work with it.

00:53:12   Well, I figure I could always fall back on iSCSI. Let's say, I haven't even tested this,

00:53:18   let's say Mavericks comes out and it breaks the sinology time machine thing and sinology

00:53:22   doesn't fix it soon, which itself is unlikely, I think, because like one of the reasons why

00:53:26   I picked them is because they're very active in development. They have a lot of users.

00:53:32   They have a huge community of people who use and love these things. I have never seen a

00:53:36   storage product, and I've very rarely seen any computer products at all that had such

00:53:41   a universal acclaim as Synology and NASA. Like when I asked about them, everybody on

00:53:46   on Twitter love them. And there was zero reports of anything bad. I was shocked how positive

00:53:53   the response was. And they really are pretty on the ball with software updates. They're

00:53:59   working on a big update now. There's so much user-created software you can run on it. They

00:54:05   have a whole package store you can browse and stuff. It's pretty advanced, and it seems

00:54:10   like they're really on the ball. That's generally what you want. You don't want the manufacturer

00:54:15   that nobody's using for stuff like this.

00:54:17   Because that's, I think, more likely to be the one where

00:54:21   some OS update comes out, and it breaks something

00:54:23   that you relied on, and it's just never fixed.

00:54:26   Whereas if you're with the big dominant player,

00:54:29   or one of the big dominant players,

00:54:31   you're way more likely not to have those problems.

00:54:34   Or you're likely to have those problems be fixed sooner,

00:54:37   in most cases.

00:54:38   Do you know what the thing is running?

00:54:39   Is it like a free BSD thing in there?

00:54:41   It's some kind of Linux or BSD thing.

00:54:44   And it has an Intel Atom processor.

00:54:47   I believe it's x86-64, which I was pretty impressed by.

00:54:50   It's like a dual core 2 gigahertz.

00:54:52   I think it was 4 gigs of RAM.

00:54:53   It has pretty good hardware in it.

00:54:56   And one of the things I tried was if you want to,

00:55:00   you can directly install CrashPlan on it.

00:55:02   And so I tried that to see if that would be any better,

00:55:04   and it wasn't.

00:55:05   But the instructions are you SSH into it.

00:55:09   First you go enable SSH, then you SSH into it,

00:55:11   and you manually download this package with wget,

00:55:14   and everything.

00:55:15   And so you can do pretty much everything

00:55:18   you can do with a low-powered Linux box right on the thing.

00:55:22   So it was--

00:55:23   Does it have built-in stuff?

00:55:24   Does it have a DLNA server or anything?

00:55:25   It does, yeah.

00:55:26   And there's so many things.

00:55:27   I've barely scratched the surface.

00:55:29   It has DLNA.

00:55:31   It has iTunes sharing.

00:55:34   And again, I'm sure that's using some kind of undocumented

00:55:37   or unsupported API by Apple.

00:55:39   But it does have an iTunes share.

00:55:40   But I haven't even used any of this stuff yet.

00:55:42   I haven't had time to play with it all yet.

00:55:44   Because that's always the like once you go NAS, you're like well once I have a NAS

00:55:48   Why don't I just get a full flat like get a Mac Mini and hook up like a big rated attachment to it?

00:55:53   And then you know like right you could I mean there's there's no

00:55:56   one of the big reasons for me honestly was simplicity of devices and also cost because

00:56:01   This thing retails for like 1,100 bucks, and this is like their high-end. It was the the DS 1813 plus model

00:56:07   It's fairly new and it's eight bays

00:56:10   That there's a five bay version. That's significantly less

00:56:13   I think it's $900 or $800.

00:56:16   And then you can get-- basically,

00:56:17   the more bays you want, the more expensive it is.

00:56:21   But once you put together the cost of a Mac Mini,

00:56:26   even a low-end used one, Mac Minis

00:56:29   aren't that cheap because everybody has some kind of use

00:56:31   they have for one.

00:56:33   So you can't really buy a Mac Mini

00:56:35   for less than about $500.

00:56:36   That's any good at all.

00:56:38   And so you throw in a $500 or more Mac Mini.

00:56:42   Give it some kind of connection.

00:56:45   Once you add a big enclosure that has four to eight bays

00:56:49   in it, if you want it to be fast,

00:56:53   it's going to have to be probably Thunderbolt.

00:56:55   And so that's going to be really expensive.

00:56:57   If you don't care about it being fast that much,

00:56:59   you probably at least want it to be FireWire 800 or USB 3.

00:57:03   So you're still talking a lot of cost.

00:57:05   Then you have two things.

00:57:06   You have two power bricks.

00:57:07   You have two things heating up your closet.

00:57:09   And then you have like the cost savings really is pretty minimal at that point or it's or it's more expensive going that way. So

00:57:15   Like I looked at that stuff but like multi drive high-speed enclosures are really expensive

00:57:22   Yeah, you'd end up buying something like that anyway in the connecting a computer

00:57:25   But the true Greek way to do it which neither one of us that probably feels like we have time or inclination to do

00:57:31   Is you know get one of the free NAS things make your own ZFS NAS out of your own BSD box and a bunch of?

00:57:36   devices and ZFS is really cool.

00:57:38   And I'm a big fan of ZFS, and people wonder why I don't build my own, you know, an ass

00:57:43   out of ZFS.

00:57:44   But like, I would love for someone to make that product for me to buy, but I'm not gonna,

00:57:49   you know, spend time doing it.

00:57:50   I don't have that time to screw with my storage.

00:57:51   I want my storage to be bulletproof, problem-free, supported by a company, like this analogy

00:57:55   sounds like it is.

00:57:56   I prefer it to be from Apple, because then it's like all one big thing, and I would pay

00:58:01   whatever crazy, but they're not into making storage, so fine.

00:58:05   Well, yeah, honestly if Apple did make one of these I probably still wouldn't get theirs because it would be some kind of like side project

00:58:11   For them they didn't really care that much about and so it probably wouldn't be very good

00:58:14   But they like the X serve raid exactly. Yeah. Yeah, they did make something like this and it's they no longer make it for very good reasons

00:58:20   And also, you know one one big advantage that sinology has also over like build your own thing is that it's really quiet

00:58:28   Because it has these two giant. I think they're probably about 92 millimeter size fans

00:58:34   They're they're big slow powerful fans. So like and most of them they're they're very quiet like I

00:58:39   when I first got the thing I

00:58:42   just had it next to my computer like on a little end table here because I was I was still

00:58:46   Configuring it and still putting drives in and out and I figure out I'll set it up here and I'm moving into the closet like

00:58:51   In a couple days when it's all set up and I was shocked how quiet it was

00:58:55   The drives make all the noise the fans are almost inaudible like it was quieter than my Mac Pro

00:59:02   And the Mac Pro, despite a lot of people complaining about it, I think is a pretty quiet computer, especially given what's in it.

00:59:07   Yeah, it definitely is if you ever owned a G5 before then. It's way quieter.

00:59:12   Yeah, so it really is. I mean, the Synology basically is just an embedded computer with a bunch of bays and some custom software.

00:59:17   But it really is a very, very nice implementation of that.

00:59:28   And so once you throw in how nice it is, how flexible it is, how much it can do, and how

00:59:33   it's very cost-competitive with building your own, I don't think there's much reason

00:59:38   to build your own, honestly, unless you have very specialized needs that you can't get

00:59:41   with somebody else's thing.

00:59:42   One of my attractions to a NAS is that I wouldn't have to have it in the same room as the computer,

00:59:46   so then I probably didn't care how noisy it is.

00:59:48   Because you're right, I know how noisy a drive is, and even if you have a fanless

00:59:53   device which would not be very smart, yeah, the drives make noise.

00:59:56   So that's why I don't want to buy the new Apple router thing with the fan in it, because

01:00:00   I wouldn't buy the time capsule version.

01:00:02   It has a fan?

01:00:03   Yes, they all have fans.

01:00:04   I didn't know that.

01:00:05   The time capsule ones have fans, and even the ones without the time capsule, because

01:00:07   it's the same case.

01:00:08   Yeah.

01:00:09   They just leave it empty, but yeah, they all have fans, so I don't know.

01:00:12   Oh, man.

01:00:13   I'm looking at it like, yeah.

01:00:14   Plus, it's like this weird vertical, ugly telephone booth thing, so.

01:00:18   I was thinking about buying that, because I'm having some range issues.

01:00:21   I've always had some range issues with the current one, which is in the aforementioned

01:00:25   closet.

01:00:26   the fan wouldn't bother me that much, but still that sucks that it has a fan. Although,

01:00:29   did you know the first generation Apple TV had a fan? Most people didn't know that.

01:00:35   But it was just really, really quiet most of the time.

01:00:37   Yeah. I mean, it was like a Mac Mini, the first generation Apple TV.

01:00:41   Yeah, like a very, very low-spec one.

01:00:44   Yeah, that got super hot even with the fan.

01:00:46   Yes, it really did.

01:00:47   Wait, to go back a step, why wouldn't you just drop like an AirPort Express or another

01:00:52   the other airport extreme in a different part of the house,

01:00:54   if the house is all wired with cat six?

01:00:56   - Basically complexity and interference.

01:00:59   I had that set up in a couple of apartments

01:01:01   before I bought the house,

01:01:04   'cause a lot of old apartments have very,

01:01:06   very severe range problems 'cause of what's in the walls,

01:01:08   'cause it's so old and it's all like, you know,

01:01:10   metal sheeting and brick and stuff that is not

01:01:13   very radio friendly.

01:01:15   And so yeah, in two apartments I had like the airport

01:01:20   as the home base station, and then like a little

01:01:22   Airport Express, usually wired, like with a very long cable

01:01:27   from the base station.

01:01:28   And it never worked that well.

01:01:31   Like sometimes your devices would pick the wrong one,

01:01:35   and then the connection would just be really bad,

01:01:37   and they wouldn't switch to the other one,

01:01:38   even though it would have a better reception.

01:01:40   - Did you have it set up with like that fancy Apple--

01:01:43   - Yeah, WDS.

01:01:44   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:46   That didn't make a difference?

01:01:47   - Yeah, WDS is not just an Apple thing,

01:01:49   but Apple has, like if you use all Apple stuff,

01:01:51   it makes it a lot easier to use it.

01:01:53   - Right, right.

01:01:54   - And yeah, I tried that and it really didn't,

01:01:58   it didn't do much, it wasn't very good.

01:02:00   So like if that's your only option to get good range,

01:02:04   then you know, do what you gotta do.

01:02:06   But if there's any other alternative,

01:02:08   like if you can just buy a better router

01:02:09   and have better range from one router,

01:02:11   that's a better way to go, if that'll cover your area.

01:02:14   All right, we should talk about our second sponsor,

01:02:15   which is related to everything

01:02:16   we've just been talking about.

01:02:18   Can you take a guess?

01:02:20   Is it File Transporter?

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01:02:23   I cheated.

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01:02:25   You really?

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01:02:27   Yeah.

01:02:27   That's such a cheat move.

01:02:29   But at least I fessed up.

01:02:30   So this fits in with a lot of what you were just saying.

01:02:33   File Transporter-- well, that's their website.

01:02:36   Their product is just called Transporter.

01:02:38   Transporter is an off-cloud, peer-to-peer storage drive

01:02:42   for privately sharing, accessing, and protecting

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01:02:45   So what does all that mean?

01:02:48   It's designed with your modern social lifestyle in mind.

01:02:50   FileTransporter is an enclosure, a drive enclosure,

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01:02:54   You can supply your own.

01:02:55   You can buy one directly from them.

01:02:57   It's an enclosure that looks pretty cool with a network

01:03:00   port on the back.

01:03:01   So it is basically a NAS enclosure,

01:03:03   but with some special software that allows

01:03:05   you to do some special things.

01:03:06   So one thing is they integrate directly into Finder,

01:03:10   and very similar to how Dropbox integrates.

01:03:13   And you can use it in a similar way

01:03:15   that you would use Dropbox, where you have a special synced

01:03:19   folder, and you have Finder integration with right-click

01:03:22   links and sharing links and stuff like that.

01:03:24   But all this data is stored on that physical device

01:03:27   that you own, on that physical hard drive sitting in your house

01:03:30   somewhere, or your office.

01:03:32   And so it isn't sitting on someone else's servers.

01:03:35   It's huge security implications there, huge ownership

01:03:39   implications there.

01:03:41   And you can still-- if you have multiple transporter devices--

01:03:44   Let's say your friend has one, or you have one at home

01:03:47   and one at work.

01:03:48   You can selectively share files or folders

01:03:51   between any two transporters, or any number of transporters,

01:03:54   with only the people you select.

01:03:56   So it's nice and secure.

01:03:57   End-to-end encryption with all communication

01:03:59   that goes over the internet, so all the data

01:04:01   can be read by nobody in transit.

01:04:03   And if you have multiple transporters,

01:04:06   they will automatically sync these shared folders

01:04:08   to each other.

01:04:08   So you really get a lot of that Dropbox-like functionality,

01:04:11   a lot of that convenience of cloud storage,

01:04:14   without having to have your data be held by somebody else.

01:04:17   And not to mention that you can get a heck of a lot more space

01:04:20   on one of these things you can get from Dropbox way,

01:04:23   way cheaper.

01:04:24   So just to give you some idea before we get to the end,

01:04:26   and I have to tell you pricing anyway,

01:04:28   these things are really affordable.

01:04:29   So the empty enclosure, the empty transporter,

01:04:32   you supply any 2 and 1/2 inch hard drive, it's $200.

01:04:36   You can get a one terabyte drive built in for a total of $300

01:04:40   or two terabyte for $400.

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01:04:48   That's 40 bucks off the big one.

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01:04:54   If you go to filetransporter.com/ATP,

01:04:56   they'll know you came from us.

01:04:58   That's filetransporter.com/ATP.

01:04:59   So what else does this do?

01:05:01   So you can have automatic offsite backup.

01:05:04   That's a huge use for this.

01:05:05   We were just talking about,

01:05:07   actually I need to revisit that topic

01:05:09   when we get back to the show.

01:05:11   just talking about how the heck do you back up

01:05:13   network attack storage.

01:05:14   With Transporter, there's a really great option

01:05:16   if you buy two of them.

01:05:18   You put one in your house and one in your office,

01:05:20   or your friend's house, or your parent's house,

01:05:22   or something maybe geographically far away.

01:05:25   Then you can have these things automatically back up

01:05:27   to each other all the time.

01:05:28   And so you have a constant off-site backup in real time.

01:05:33   And again, everything is encrypted end to end,

01:05:35   so it's really, really secure.

01:05:37   And it's also great for collaboration between people.

01:05:40   Let's say John and Casey have to send me their audio files

01:05:44   after every show we do.

01:05:45   If we were all using transporters,

01:05:47   which we're working on, but if we were all using transporters,

01:05:50   then we could just have this one shared folder,

01:05:53   and everyone could just drop their audio

01:05:54   in that shared folder.

01:05:55   And it just syncs everywhere using

01:05:57   direct traffic between our devices,

01:06:00   and nobody in the middle able to read the data,

01:06:02   including the NSA or anybody else.

01:06:05   And well, unless they've cracked the encryption,

01:06:07   I think it's unlikely.

01:06:08   This is pretty good encryption.

01:06:10   And so you can have this awesome collaboration

01:06:14   with very large files that would be

01:06:15   prohibitive on other services, or would be just really, really

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01:06:21   It wouldn't fit.

01:06:22   It's a really great solution here for collaboration,

01:06:25   for sharing.

01:06:26   If you want to have one at your parents or one at your house,

01:06:29   then you can have a shared photo directory.

01:06:31   So you can take pictures or videos of the kids

01:06:33   and have your parents or grandparents see them.

01:06:35   There's all sorts of uses for this kind of thing.

01:06:38   Confidential documents.

01:06:40   There's just so many uses for having

01:06:42   your own personal physical ownership of a device that

01:06:46   is still easily accessible and shareable on the cloud.

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01:06:56   Check these guys out.

01:06:57   Go to filetransporter.com/atp so they know you came from us.

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01:07:17   So sharing services, they manage--

01:07:20   you don't have to have your own dynamic DNS

01:07:23   thing in the middle so that you can find your transporter.

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01:07:57   that's like this. So check them out. Thanks a lot to Transporter for sponsoring the show.

01:08:02   Yeah, you know what it is? If you didn't want to go the nuclear option of like a Synology

01:08:06   or Synology, whatever we're calling it, or Drobo, but you still wanted a fairly, a really

01:08:11   cheap, but not bad cheap, good cheap, network attached storage that actually does more than

01:08:17   just sit there on your own network that you can never access from anywhere else. This

01:08:21   is your ultimate answer. And I've been using one that they sent me, which is very nice

01:08:25   to them, and I really, really like it. It really is really nice.

01:08:28   Yeah, it's, and you know, I don't think it has to be, you know, this is one of the reasons

01:08:32   why I'm comfortable talking about this

01:08:34   in the middle of a NAS discussion.

01:08:36   I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive

01:08:38   between this and a NAS.

01:08:39   I think these are different use cases.

01:08:40   - No, that's true, you're right.

01:08:42   - You know, like, I think a lot of people

01:08:45   are going to be fine with one or the other,

01:08:46   but a lot of people could really use both.

01:08:48   You know, it really is about what's your use case here.

01:08:50   And the transporter does things that I don't think,

01:08:53   I don't know of any NAS that does similar things.

01:08:56   And it's all, you know, very integrated and everything.

01:08:59   And it really is a very unique device.

01:09:02   and very cool.

01:09:05   All right, so back to our NAS backup question.

01:09:09   I hope this isn't too boring, so I'm

01:09:11   going to go through it quickly.

01:09:12   Basically, Backblaze won't back up network attacks drives.

01:09:17   They might back up iSCSI.

01:09:18   I will know that eventually if I ever try iSCSI.

01:09:21   My fear with iSCSI is, as we said before,

01:09:24   I'm worried about what if the next version of OS X comes out.

01:09:28   And there's only, as far as I know, two major iSCSI initiators for it.

01:09:34   There's GlobalSan and Atto.

01:09:37   And the GlobalSan one's free.

01:09:38   Atto's 200 bucks, I think.

01:09:41   Dave Nainian of SuperDuper fame, which is an awesome app for cloning drives and backing

01:09:46   up, he strongly recommended the $200 Atto one.

01:09:50   He said it's significantly better and that he's seen a lot of people have trouble with

01:09:53   the GlobalSan one.

01:09:54   tried either of them yet, but he is pretty qualified

01:09:57   to know things like storage and people having trouble

01:10:00   from Macs using hard drives.

01:10:02   So the guy who makes SuperDuper knows that stuff pretty well.

01:10:06   I would imagine his support email alone

01:10:08   is a vast treasure trove of Mac storage related issues.

01:10:13   So I'm inclined to try the Ado one,

01:10:17   but then again, it's like, what happens

01:10:20   if an OS update breaks this?

01:10:22   Then you can't access your shares or your drives

01:10:23   your time machine. So I'm a little wary about that. You know, Windows, I believe for a long

01:10:30   time now, I think for a couple of versions, has supported iSCSI initiation just in Windows.

01:10:37   And I don't think we know why Apple doesn't do it in Mac OS X, except they just haven't

01:10:41   cared yet or haven't had time yet. I don't really know the reason. Maybe there's... I

01:10:46   assume there's no like weird patent issues or anything, but for whatever reason Apple

01:10:50   doesn't support it directly yet, so you have to have these third-party things. And obviously

01:10:53   These are probably kernel level extensions.

01:10:55   And that's kind of questionable.

01:10:57   I don't know, John, what do you think about that stuff?

01:11:00   I prefer to run no third party kernel extensions

01:11:04   if I can help it at all.

01:11:05   I mean, getting back to the old Mac Pro again,

01:11:07   that was the beauty of the thing.

01:11:09   That's why I would buy the biggest video card that could

01:11:12   come with, because I didn't want to buy an aftermarket video

01:11:14   card and have to deal with the video driver, because who

01:11:15   knows how that would flake out.

01:11:17   So I'm totally on board with the--

01:11:18   and I slowly weaned myself off every other one of the memory

01:11:22   resident hacking things, like the various application enhancer and symbol plugins and

01:11:27   stuff like that.

01:11:28   I'm just trying to get that stuff out.

01:11:29   So I'm really hesitant to bring in anything else like that, especially something for storage.

01:11:37   Maybe if it was officially supported by Apple.

01:11:39   That's even more like Fusion Drive.

01:11:41   Apple says, "Not really technically supported to make your own Fusion Drives," but it totally

01:11:45   is.

01:11:46   You can use the command line utilities.

01:11:47   on command line utilities, and yet I still feel wary that someone at Apple is not QAing

01:11:54   the setup that I've created with my external fusion drive because it's not part of their

01:11:57   QA automation and they're going to accidentally break it and not know it and I'm going to

01:12:00   be the poor sucker that finds out.

01:12:02   Right, exactly. So yeah, I'm not a big fan of the idea of iSCSI. It sounds like it would

01:12:09   be awesome in practice, not for a network share because only really one computer can

01:12:13   access it responsibly at a time. But certainly for each of our computers' time machines,

01:12:19   that would be perfect.

01:12:20   Yeah, it's not the technology. iSCSI is fine. It's the fact that Apple, you have

01:12:26   to install a third-party driver.

01:12:28   Right, it's a client issue. And yeah, I'm with you. It makes me very uncomfortable to

01:12:33   have to rely on or even have installed any third-party kernel extensions. I really would

01:12:38   prefer not to or to minimize them.

01:12:40   So I'm probably going to keep with the possibly hacked

01:12:45   network setup that they have, where they're just emulating

01:12:48   the Mac OS X slash time machine server or time capsule server

01:12:52   thing.

01:12:53   Because it works so far.

01:12:54   I'll see you in practice.

01:12:55   But yeah, I'll see.

01:12:58   So anyway, for backup, obviously backing up your time machine

01:13:01   drive to a cloud service is probably not necessary.

01:13:03   It might even be problematic because of its structure.

01:13:06   So I don't back that up to a cloud service.

01:13:08   But I should point out too, there was an article--

01:13:12   I don't know, it's probably out of date now.

01:13:14   I was trying to find it during the discussion

01:13:17   before the sponsorship.

01:13:19   There was an article somewhere-- I'd

01:13:21   love the link if anybody can find it-- that compared all

01:13:23   of the popular online backup services

01:13:26   and how they handle Mac file system metadata.

01:13:30   It was from the Arc guy, wasn't it?

01:13:31   Yes, because Arc won, basically.

01:13:33   But I can't find this right now.

01:13:35   If somebody finds it, I'll put the link in the show notes.

01:13:37   And I've been complaining about that for years.

01:13:39   I can first complain to Backblaze, then to CrashPlan.

01:13:43   It's pretty much trivial to create

01:13:45   a file with a bunch of Mac-specific metadata

01:13:47   and then back it up and then bring it back down and see

01:13:49   how much of it you've lost.

01:13:50   And in practice, mostly doesn't matter.

01:13:52   But it's like, after a certain number of years,

01:13:54   especially if you're pitching your product to Mac users,

01:13:58   you should pick up the ball.

01:14:00   And Backblaze, to its credit, has

01:14:01   gotten a lot better since the way it

01:14:03   started years and years ago.

01:14:05   But I think Arc is still the only one that's at 100%.

01:14:09   Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me at all.

01:14:11   Because Arc is like-- Backblaze and CrashPlan both have

01:14:14   these kind of Java heavy APIs.

01:14:16   Or I don't know if Backblaze actually is Java.

01:14:18   No, Backblaze is not Java.

01:14:19   It's not a good interface, though.

01:14:22   The settings pane I really don't care for for Backblaze.

01:14:25   It's better than the Java thing from CrashPlan,

01:14:28   but it's not great.

01:14:30   I've had some weird UI issues with it over time.

01:14:34   where it works and the data is backed up,

01:14:37   but sometimes the UI is a little confusing or clunky.

01:14:40   So not a huge fan of Backblaze's interface,

01:14:43   but Arc is like a real Mac app made

01:14:46   by a real Mac nerd who obviously is really

01:14:50   into getting it very Mac native and getting that right.

01:14:53   And so I really respect that.

01:14:59   And that's obviously one of the reasons

01:15:01   why he cares so much about getting all the Mac metadata right.

01:15:05   Anyway.

01:15:06   It's kind of like something that you could talk to Dave Naney about, because a lot of

01:15:09   the cases with the esoteric Mac metadata, it's not so much that either Backblazer Crash

01:15:13   Pan isn't doing it because of some technical reason.

01:15:16   A lot of times, it's like a policy decision.

01:15:17   It's like, "All right, well, this thing has ACLs, but it's mounted with the permissions

01:15:24   off type of thing."

01:15:25   You're not even sure what the right thing to do is.

01:15:27   UID should I attach to this if it's mounted with permissions off, but I see that there's

01:15:32   an ACL on it as well.

01:15:34   You don't even know what the right thing to do is.

01:15:37   What does this person want?

01:15:38   And when they restore it, the environment could be totally different and things could

01:15:42   have shifted.

01:15:45   It's not always clear what you should be doing.

01:15:47   So I think a lot of these bigger backup things are like, "Look, we can't even figure out

01:15:51   what to do with that thing.

01:15:53   So we're just going to drop it on the table and make sure that it works.

01:15:58   Ownership is an obvious one.

01:15:59   Say you back up something and you delete that account and someone else comes on an account

01:16:04   with the same UID.

01:16:05   You have to just forget about ownership.

01:16:07   It's like NFS.

01:16:08   Oh, well, your UIDs have to match or you need some sort of directory service or some sort

01:16:13   of configuration file to map your UID.

01:16:15   There's no real distributed identification, internet-wide identification, and UIDs are

01:16:20   so...

01:16:21   It's just a number.

01:16:22   It's not a good way.

01:16:23   So the policy decision surrounding

01:16:26   ownership or any other kind of metadata

01:16:28   associated with files is difficult.

01:16:29   And people just want it to work.

01:16:31   They just want their data back.

01:16:32   So you're like, oh, this didn't exactly preserve.

01:16:35   It's not exactly the way it was when I put it up.

01:16:38   What's the difference?

01:16:38   Well, if the ownership changed, you probably

01:16:40   don't care that much.

01:16:41   Unless one of the things was set UID root

01:16:43   and now your application won't run

01:16:44   because you tried to restore it.

01:16:46   God, file systems are terrible.

01:16:50   Naturally, you had to throw that in there.

01:16:52   It wouldn't be a complete discussion about storage

01:16:54   without a Syracuse file system complaint.

01:16:59   Anyway, so my backup solution for the NAS

01:17:03   is a time machine I don't back up to the cloud because

01:17:08   of issues.

01:17:09   And the network shares that I've created, right now I'm

01:17:13   using Arc on the Mac to back it up via the network mount

01:17:17   to Amazon Glacier.

01:17:19   And Glacier, for those unfamiliar,

01:17:20   is kind of like S3 in that it's an Amazon storage service

01:17:26   that you can access, just pay per use.

01:17:29   But it doesn't really work anything like S3.

01:17:32   It's made for long-term archival storage,

01:17:34   of stuff that you probably will never have to look at.

01:17:37   And if you do ever need to look at it,

01:17:40   you don't mind it being delayed by like five hours

01:17:42   to go retrieve it.

01:17:44   And so for online and backup, it makes a lot of sense

01:17:46   in a number of ways.

01:17:47   There's a few weird things about it that make it a little inconvenient.

01:17:50   But the great thing about it is that it's dirt cheap.

01:17:53   I believe it's a cent per gig per month, something like that.

01:17:57   So backing up a terabyte is like $10 a month.

01:17:59   It's something like that.

01:18:00   It's not as cheap as backblazing Crash Plan.

01:18:02   It isn't, you're right.

01:18:04   But it's way cheaper than S3, which I believe the base rate for S3 is still eight cents

01:18:09   a gig.

01:18:10   So it's like eight times cheaper or something like that.

01:18:11   Yeah, that's why Arc was a nonstarter back when it came out, because it was the S3 backend.

01:18:15   I have like five terabytes up on these free online--

01:18:18   or at least not free-- these $5 a month online backups

01:18:20   or whatever it's at now.

01:18:21   And so, yeah, if I had to S3 that, that's too much for me.

01:18:24   Exactly.

01:18:24   So-- and CrashPlan, the reason I tried it

01:18:27   is that CrashPlan does backup network stuff

01:18:30   if you tell it to.

01:18:31   And as far as I can tell, that doesn't

01:18:33   appear as though it's going to change anytime soon.

01:18:35   It seems like that actually is their official policy

01:18:37   to backup network stuff.

01:18:39   So Backblaze went through it.

01:18:41   CrashPlan so far will, if you can tolerate their slow up

01:18:45   if you have that problem from your connection.

01:18:47   And Arc will do it directly to S3 or Glacier,

01:18:51   which is awesome and very nicely integrated,

01:18:54   but has high storage cost per month

01:18:55   relative to their services.

01:18:56   So there's no perfect solution for most people.

01:19:02   For me, I'm using Glacier through Arc,

01:19:04   and it's going to end up being something like $10 or $15

01:19:08   a month for what I'm putting up there.

01:19:12   So I'll see.

01:19:14   That's what I'm doing so far.

01:19:15   It's worked.

01:19:16   I uploaded the whole set already of what's there so far.

01:19:19   And yeah, so far so good.

01:19:22   There's a number of other advantages to Arc as well.

01:19:24   We should really talk about this in more detail.

01:19:26   Well, honestly, we probably shouldn't talk about it

01:19:28   in more detail sometime.

01:19:29   But one of the cool things about Arc

01:19:30   is that it's storing data on Amazon S3 or Glacier, which

01:19:34   are these services that you kind of control because you sign up

01:19:39   for Amazon Web Services, and then it's your access keys

01:19:42   that it's using to access the stuff and to put it up there.

01:19:44   So you can always use any other S3 client or access method

01:19:49   and look at your data directly yourself without involving Arc.

01:19:53   And then the data format, they've

01:19:55   actually documented the data format.

01:19:58   And they even have this open source GitHub restore tool

01:20:02   so that you can always look and see how do you restore data.

01:20:05   So if Arc's maker, Haystack's offer,

01:20:08   if they ever go away or become dicks or something,

01:20:11   you can always go and just get your data off there.

01:20:14   and without being proprietary locked into someone else's

01:20:17   server.

01:20:17   So there's a number of cool things about it,

01:20:19   as long as you can swallow that much higher storage

01:20:22   cost than the other options, which

01:20:23   is admittedly a pretty big problem for a lot of data.

01:20:29   I think that's all I have on this topic so far.

01:20:32   What do you guys-- do you have anything to add?

01:20:35   This has been kind of the Marco show, unfortunately.

01:20:36   I'm sorry.

01:20:37   Well, it happens.

01:20:39   I actually don't have any particular thing to add on that.

01:20:41   I mean, I'd love to get something like that,

01:20:43   But to be honest, my data storage needs just aren't that big.

01:20:47   I don't generate that much data.

01:20:48   We don't have a kid.

01:20:49   We don't have fancy cameras.

01:20:50   So for me, that's just not a need I have.

01:20:54   But John, I would assume you have at least a couple questions.

01:20:57   I mean, I still don't know what I'm going to do

01:21:00   when I get my fancy new Mac Pro.

01:21:02   I'm thinking about why do I have all this data.

01:21:04   The stupid dream that I've had since I had a Mac 128K

01:21:09   with a floppy drive has been every time I

01:21:11   get a new computer, you know, and storage space was going up so much. I'm like, "All

01:21:15   right, on this new computer, I'll be able to fit everything from my old computer plus

01:21:20   all the stuff I have that I had to take off my old computer because it didn't fit."

01:21:24   So that box of floppy disks next to it, or when I had a hard drive, I had to have a bunch

01:21:28   of stuff that I can't fit on the hard drive. But it's not that important. It's like old

01:21:31   stuff. I'm not really into it, but I have to put it on the side. But I'm like, "Boy,

01:21:33   when I get that next computer, I'll be able to have all my current stuff plus everything

01:21:37   from my entire lifetime back," because it's so small. Like, how big was the stuff that

01:21:41   was on my Mac 128K, how big was the stuff that was on my Mac Plus, you know?

01:21:44   And like, it's so tiny compared to, you know, it's like the hockey stick graph of the iPhone

01:21:48   sales.

01:21:49   Like, this new hard drive will hold everything I have now plus everything I've ever created

01:21:52   my entire life, right?

01:21:54   And that has never quite been the case.

01:21:56   So for example, like, I have an external one terabyte here just holding WWDC videos for

01:22:01   like the past three years, right, because I wanted to reference them when I'm writing

01:22:03   my review.

01:22:04   And I couldn't put them on my main drive because if I put them on my main drive, they'll start

01:22:07   go into my backup vortex and my main drive is ever so slightly bigger than my other backup

01:22:14   ones, and so I won't be able to make the super duper clone because I'd have to exclude, you

01:22:18   know, it's just easier to get them out of there, right?

01:22:22   I have stuff backed up on drives that are shut, like all my Apple videos, I'm like,

01:22:26   "Do I really need to see the videos from WWDC 2003?

01:22:30   Do I need those to be on my hard drive?"

01:22:31   No, I probably don't, so put them off.

01:22:33   And so I keep thinking that the next computer I'm going to get is like, "All right, I can

01:22:36   I can finally bring all that stuff in.

01:22:37   Come on guys, WWC 2003, it's your time to be on the hard drive again.

01:22:40   Just because it's convenient for me to get at that.

01:22:42   You know, like, sometimes I just want, I don't want to go rummaging through things and figuring

01:22:45   out what disk something was on.

01:22:47   I just want it all to be there, right?

01:22:50   And so maybe the NAS gives me that.

01:22:51   It's like, well, finally I can put like 12 terabytes.

01:22:53   Surely I can fit everything in there.

01:22:55   And then I won't feel guilty about having just gigs upon gigs upon gigs of Apple videos

01:22:59   and whatever else in there.

01:23:01   And I don't even forget about, I know that people who are like, have tons and tons of

01:23:04   both legal and illegal movies and stuff. I don't even do that. I have Blu-rays, DVDs.

01:23:09   I do not have digital versions of those. So I'm not even entering that area. I'm just

01:23:12   talking about my digital crap, which is like maybe, at this point, 100 gigs or so of photos,

01:23:18   plus probably more than that. I have more Apple video than I do pictures of my own children

01:23:24   at this point. Although maybe they'll cross over at some point. But the problem is WDC

01:23:29   2013 is like 1080p video, and that stuff is big.

01:23:33   Yeah, well, you can download lower res, but still, it is--

01:23:36   even the lower res ones are like a gig per session

01:23:38   or something.

01:23:39   I almost considered downloading lower res,

01:23:40   and like, no, you'll regret it later

01:23:42   when you have your three-petabyte holographic cube.

01:23:45   You'll be like, damn it, I should download the 1080p.

01:23:47   Those things are nothing now compared

01:23:49   to my holographic cube.

01:23:51   Well, my rule is like, if it's something

01:23:53   that can be probably easily re-downloaded from somewhere

01:23:57   in the future, I don't need to even store it most of the time.

01:24:01   And if I do choose to store it, I don't really

01:24:02   that up to more than just like, you know, like the NAS has its own built-in raid level

01:24:08   to prevent against some of those failures and Time Machine is another level, but like,

01:24:12   you know, like I don't need to necessarily cloud back up WWDC videos.

01:24:15   Well, but the thing is I don't assume that I can re-download them and, you know, like

01:24:20   I assume they'll like go away and I won't be able to, like just look at their stupid

01:24:22   developer documentation URLs. Every single major release those things break. So I'm like,

01:24:26   oh, forget it. I'm never going to be able to get these videos again. I got to grab them

01:24:28   them now, and that's it. I'm never going to find them again.

01:24:34   For me, some of the stuff, like Apple has the Apple Keynote podcast feed. I think they

01:24:39   call it Apple Special Events or Apple Keynote, something like that. It's in the iTunes

01:24:42   store.

01:24:43   There's multiple feeds. There's the HD one, there's the 1080p one, which is not

01:24:46   confusing at all.

01:24:47   Right. And the 1080p one, in many cases, is just upscaled.

01:24:49   Yeah, I know.

01:24:50   Anyway, so those, I save all of those, and I have those in long-term backup storage,

01:24:56   I do sometimes refer back to them, and it would suck not to have them.

01:25:00   For the same reason you have them. I'm sure you don't even have to ask. I know you have them.

01:25:04   I just looked at one in real media, a .rm file

01:25:08   today. I was just looking up the exact quote of like

01:25:12   WWC 1999 and I had it in .rm. It's also on YouTube.

01:25:16   But YouTube has made it more difficult to download. I tried to leach it from YouTube and the sync issues

01:25:20   were off, so I'm like, you know what, this real media file still plays and it's actually higher quality

01:25:24   than the YouTube one.

01:25:26   - But yeah, so stuff that's for historical reference

01:25:30   that I'm likely to look back on five or 10 years out

01:25:33   for some reason, that I'll keep, even if it's big videos.

01:25:36   But WWDC session videos, I very rarely find a reason

01:25:41   to look back more than one year on those,

01:25:43   and Apple still has those up from a year ago.

01:25:46   I think the first time I'm looking for something

01:25:50   from five years ago and can't find it,

01:25:52   then I'll start saving them.

01:25:54   I have a VHS tape of a WWDC thing, which I didn't go to.

01:25:59   It was before my time, but a friend of mine who has been going to Apple developer conferences

01:26:05   far longer than I have was cleaning out his basement.

01:26:07   He said, "Do you want this?"

01:26:08   I said, "You know what?

01:26:09   I think I do."

01:26:10   Do you still have a VHS tape player?

01:26:12   I do.

01:26:13   It's in the attic, but I haven't.

01:26:15   My Sony VCR that I bought when I got married still works.

01:26:19   That's awesome.

01:26:20   All right.

01:26:21   So is that it?

01:26:22   Anything else on that?

01:26:23   I think we should wrap it up before we talk about the two hours about VHS tapes and gigs

01:26:27   of videos.

01:26:28   I agree.

01:26:29   Alright, thanks a lot to our two sponsors this week, MindBlitz App and FileTransporter.

01:26:35   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental, oh it

01:26:46   was accidental.

01:26:47   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't do any research.

01:26:52   Casey wouldn't let him, cause it was accidental.

01:27:00   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:27:05   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:27:10   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:27:14   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:27:19   T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-E-N-T-M-A-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:27:26   It's accidental, accidental They didn't mean to, accidental, accidental

01:27:34   Tech podcast so long

01:27:38   Polygon Sandwich had a good line in the chat that I suppose she said that my kid should play Casey at letterpress

01:27:45   [laughter]

01:27:47   What a jerk.

01:27:48   Oh, getting back to the concentration game thing.

01:27:51   [laughter]

01:27:52   I didn't see that. Oh, that's funny.

01:27:54   I bet you I'd still lose.

01:27:56   We gotta make that happen, just to see.

01:27:58   No, don't. If you do, don't tell me.

01:28:00   'Cause I—oh, god.

01:28:02   Sometimes she sees me playing and she says, "What are you spelling?"

01:28:04   Like, she's in Kindergarten, so she doesn't really know how to spell anything.

01:28:07   Oh, god.

01:28:08   You know, you should do—like, there's a lot to be said, Casey, for the technique that I have used very often in both this and Scrabble,

01:28:14   in Scrabble, which is, like, there's no time limit. Just start tapping letters. You don't

01:28:18   have to know if it's a word. Many times I'm surprised when I hit submit that the random

01:28:21   assortment of letters that I put up on the thing turns out to be a word.

01:28:24   Right, because there's no penalty for trying to submit a word.

01:28:27   Right. So I just sit there and I just try and try and try and, you know. It doesn't

01:28:33   work quite as well in letterpress as there's too many possibilities, but Scrabble works

01:28:37   really well because you just have the letters you have and the number of combinations is

01:28:41   actually quite small so yeah I just don't have the patience for that yeah

01:28:46   that's why you lose and lose and lose wah wah oh that's not the sound it makes

01:28:54   what what is the sound it makes that sort of phonetic spelling of a sound

01:28:59   sort of an onomatopoeia for the sand trombone should not have peas in it

01:29:03   there's no P at the end of a trombone sound oh it's sad wah wah would be a lot

01:29:09   closer. "Womp womp" sounds like you're banging something, like you're playing that

01:29:15   thing where the moles pop up from the arcade. What is that called?

01:29:18   "Wack-a-mole." There you go.

01:29:19   Oh, God. Only you would get this worked up about something so mundane.

01:29:22   I think I complained about it. I hate it. When I see—because it doesn't read right,

01:29:26   I read it and I'm like—for the longest time I didn't know what it meant, and I

01:29:29   bothered Googling it, and I'm like, "That does nothing like sad trombone noise."

01:29:33   "Whwh" would be way better. "Womwm" isn't good. "Womp?" It really looks like you're

01:29:40   hitting something. It makes no sense.

01:29:43   [laughter]

01:29:43   Do you disagree?

01:29:45   No, I don't know. I never really dug into the intricacies of whether my sad trombone

01:29:52   spelling was appropriate or not.

01:29:54   It's not yours. It's the Internet's. It's like the @ in front of the Twitter replies,

01:29:59   Which is so dumb, like @whatever.

01:30:01   I remember when that, whoever first invented that, I did not like it, and I mean, it's

01:30:07   not like I could fight against it, what could you do?

01:30:08   But you sort of could, because in 2007, in January, there was like 100 Twitter users

01:30:13   or whatever, but...

01:30:14   Uh, yay yay.

01:30:15   So to hopefully get us back on track in the thing that by definition doesn't have a track...

01:30:21   You think we're gonna get back on track after that?

01:30:23   No.

01:30:24   No, God no.

01:30:25   So what are we doing for titles?

01:30:26   We doing FullBricktor, we doing Jack Into Cyberspace?

01:30:28   I like Full Bricktor.

01:30:29   Jack in a Cyber Space is dumb.

01:30:31   It's hysterical, but I—

01:30:32   Because it's funny, and you said it.

01:30:33   That's why you think it's—

01:30:34   Yeah, I said it to be intentionally dumb.

01:30:36   Sure.

01:30:37   In any case, so I say Full Bricktor, and if we have a quorum on that, then that's good.

01:30:42   Now he'll listen to the show.

01:30:43   You put his name in the title, maybe he'll perk up.

01:30:45   Yeah, that's how we get him.

01:30:47   That's how we get him, yeah.

01:30:48   We're happy trolling him.

01:30:49   He'll listen to one episode.

01:30:50   I love how everyone tried to blame me for going on vacation.

01:30:55   Everyone totally missed the whom joke that Marky played.

01:30:57   There were a couple people that nailed it, but most people didn't.

01:30:59   All the replies that I saw, I guess I just only saw the ones that had mentioned me, they're

01:31:02   like, "Oh, it's you again."

01:31:03   No, he said whom.

01:31:04   It's clear who it is.

01:31:05   A lot of people thought Casey wrote that tweet, though, because of the whom.

01:31:10   Yeah, because you have not shared the credentials for that account with me, and I presume not

01:31:16   Jon either, so that's all you.

01:31:17   No, you're the only one that doesn't have it, Casey.

01:31:19   Jon and I both control it without you.

01:31:21   No, I do not put any tweet in that thing.

01:31:23   I disclaim all responsibility for tweets in that account.

01:31:26   I don't have the password.

01:31:28   I'll give it to you guys if you want.

01:31:29   I didn't think you cared.

01:31:30   I don't want it.

01:31:31   I don't want it.

01:31:32   It doesn't matter.

01:31:33   Because I don't have enough.

01:31:34   My Twitter client situation is fraught enough as it is, and I don't need, like, multi-client

01:31:39   isn't handled that well by the ones that I use, and I don't want to add to my pile.

01:31:43   Then we'd have to then go into that stupid carrot initials ending every tweet so everyone

01:31:49   knows who it's from.

01:31:50   No, screw that.

01:31:51   We don't need to do the Paul and Storm thing where you do the bracket.

01:31:54   You don't know who Paul and Storm are.

01:31:55   I've heard of it.

01:31:56   See, this is my Dark Crystal moment for this week.

01:32:01   I'm cutting myself off, I'm not even giving you a chance, I'm just like, I've just decided

01:32:05   you don't know who that is.

01:32:06   You're right.

01:32:07   Yep.

01:32:08   I've heard those two words, or three words you can put in.

01:32:11   Yeah, I've heard those words in the English language.

01:32:13   As a unit.

01:32:14   Yeah.

01:32:15   And, goodnight.

01:32:16   Oh, I was Googling who the hell these people are.

01:32:20   Don't worry about it, don't worry about it, Casey.

01:32:22   Hey, Arlington, Virginia, that's relatively close to me.

01:32:24   There you go.

01:32:25   They have a joint Twitter account was the point and they do square bracket capital P

01:32:29   square bracket for Paul and S for Storm before each tweet as a system.

01:32:34   If we shared the credentials for that account I think part of the fun would be never signing

01:32:38   the tweets and everyone including each other could guess who the hell had posted them.

01:32:45   Although I don't know I suppose it would be pretty obvious because I'd use whom everywhere.

01:32:50   [ Audio