15: Cat, Modifier Cat


00:00:00   All your data is out there and you have no idea if any of it's valid.

00:00:04   You're just propagating single bit errors into all of your backups at Infinitum.

00:00:09   You don't worry about that? You don't think about that? How terrible it is?

00:00:14   John, I choose not to worry about that.

00:00:17   Wow. Blame me when your wedding pictures are corrupted and there's a giant pink pixel where your face should be.

00:00:23   Oh, please. Well, firstly, a pink pixel where my face should be would probably be an improvement.

00:00:27   improvement but secondly i have like thirty five back up so that including

00:00:30   the original they're all corrupted because once they go bad in the original

00:00:32   desk you're just corrupting your backups you're just propagating the corruption

00:00:35   because you have no idea it's there i would i have the original dvd the

00:00:39   original dvd those will keep yep oh gosh little little burnt spots on ink

00:00:45   under plastic that'll last forever and it's organic dye so it decomposes

00:00:50   yeah i hate you so much uh so what are we talking about today uh

00:00:55   Well, this is turning into the Accidental Marco podcast because you've gone and sold

00:01:01   stuff again. I'm waiting to be told that I've been replaced or sold or, I don't

00:01:05   know, somebody else is my daddy now. So, a big week?

00:01:09   Yeah, a little bit. At least this is the last one. Like, I'm out of stuff to sell now.

00:01:13   Oh, sure.

00:01:14   Mm-hmm, right. Yeah, well, you just got to make new things to sell.

00:01:16   Yeah, seriously. I saw so many jokes about how your next app has already been sold and

00:01:20   nobody even knows what it is yet.

00:01:22   Yeah, that's pretty good because I don't know what it is yet, so that's pretty good.

00:01:24   At this point I do know what it is, but we'll see.

00:01:28   If you just pay attention to what sessions I go to during WVDC, you'll probably be able to guess it pretty easily.

00:01:32   But it doesn't really matter.

00:01:36   I'm really excited to finally have, like basically

00:01:40   I mentioned at some point before the magazine sale was public,

00:01:44   and I should mention too, Glen and I were arranging this almost a month ago.

00:01:48   And it just so happened that, we did arrange it after

00:01:52   Instapaper thing, but it was before the Tumblr thing. And as the Tumblr thing was going on,

00:01:58   Glenn and I were emailing each other going, "Man, this is going to be hilarious when

00:02:01   we announce this." And everyone's going to think I'm just selling everything I own.

00:02:09   But yeah, the main reasons I wanted to sell the magazine were what I wrote in the blog

00:02:16   post, which is basically I had created a job for myself that was a lot less of what I wanted

00:02:22   do than I expected. Like, it was a lot of just administrative stuff and process stuff

00:02:28   and overhead and almost no development.

00:02:32   You know, I kind of wish that I failed as spectacularly as you do in creating these

00:02:39   lucrative-appearing businesses that you just have to be burdened with unloading. It's

00:02:44   a tough life you live, Marco.

00:02:47   I mean, no, it's, you know, the other main reason that I wanted to sell it is that because

00:02:55   it was taking up my time, and it's a mental burden as well, having these things, you know,

00:03:00   like everything that you do, you know, occupies some kind of space in your mind and in your,

00:03:06   you know, like in your present state of mind.

00:03:08   I'm probably abusing these terms.

00:03:09   I'm definitely not a Buddhist or anything that anyone who would be trained properly

00:03:14   in being able to describe these things, but I don't like having things on my plate that

00:03:27   I'm not really into.

00:03:29   And obviously there's some stuff that you've got to do.

00:03:31   You've just got to do it.

00:03:32   You've got to do your taxes.

00:03:34   You've got to clean your house.

00:03:36   There's stuff you've got to do.

00:03:38   But something like making your own business, you have control over that.

00:03:43   So anyway, one of the reasons why I wanted to sell Instapaper was because it was weighing

00:03:50   on me mentally that I didn't want to put in the effort into it that it really deserved,

00:03:55   and a lot of it I couldn't put in the effort that it really deserved.

00:03:58   With the magazine, it was more like, "I can keep doing this indefinitely," because it

00:04:03   wasn't taking up much of my time, but why keep a business around that I'm barely putting

00:04:08   anything into?

00:04:11   And what I learned also, like coding…

00:04:13   You know the answer to that question though, right?

00:04:15   Well because it makes money, right?

00:04:16   Is that the answer?

00:04:17   Yes, that's the usual answer.

00:04:18   Like, "Well, I keep a business around that makes money that I barely put anything into."

00:04:23   Yeah, that's the answer.

00:04:24   Well, but the reality is, like, you know, you can ask people who buy a restaurant, you

00:04:29   know, thinking, "Oh, this will generate money forever."

00:04:31   Like, you know, maybe, but you're going to be involved whether you like it or not.

00:04:36   Like it's going to need you.

00:04:38   You know, like it's the idea of a business that just generates passive money, you never

00:04:42   have to touch it, those do exist, but not really in the software world.

00:04:47   They really don't exist.

00:04:49   You can neglect something for a while, and it can work for a little while, but it doesn't

00:04:54   really exist in the sense that you're still going to have to maintain that, you're still

00:04:58   going to be responsible for that.

00:05:01   You know, it doesn't, you can't just let it sit there and stagnate forever.

00:05:05   Eventually, things are going to dwindle down.

00:05:07   People are going to see that you haven't done much to it in a while, and they're going to

00:05:12   move on.

00:05:13   Or something's going to break, like the TextMate 1 problem.

00:05:16   Something might break at any point and cause problems.

00:05:19   So...

00:05:20   Well, there's no reason you couldn't have done exactly what Glenn is doing, though.

00:05:24   So he's taking the reins now, and he's not a developer, right?

00:05:26   Well, not this kind of developer.

00:05:28   So he is just bringing people on to take over development with the iOS app, to do all sorts

00:05:34   of ancillary things while he sort of wrangles them.

00:05:37   So it seems to me that it's like if your heart was in it, if this is what you really

00:05:41   wanted to be was like run a publication and grow a publication, you would be doing it.

00:05:47   And it has less to do with whether the thing is making lots of money or a little bit money

00:05:54   or how long it's going to make money because you're perfectly capable of doing the things

00:05:57   that Glenn is doing with it, basically delegating to other people to do all the stuff, delegating

00:06:01   the development of everything. It's just that that seems like not something you want to

00:06:05   do. That's right. And I could delegate the development

00:06:09   to somebody else, but the development was the part I liked the most. But there just

00:06:13   wasn't that much that I wanted to do with it. I loved building the app. I loved all

00:06:19   the little design tricks and everything, and I loved doing all that. But then once the

00:06:23   app is done, I'm like, "Well, you know..." It's in maintenance mode, basically. There

00:06:29   certainly features you can add. There's some good stuff Glam wants to do to it. But it

00:06:33   was all stuff that I really didn't care that much about, I wasn't that motivated to do.

00:06:37   And ultimately it wasn't... You're right that if I wanted to keep doing this, I could have.

00:06:45   There's nothing... Of course I could have. My theory is that... Well, I know, just the

00:06:51   the way I feel, I know that I'm not really, I'm just not that into doing the management

00:07:01   and the business stuff.

00:07:03   I do that stuff because I have to, not because I really love it.

00:07:09   And so the magazine had become, my role in the magazine had become pretty much all business

00:07:14   stuff and overhead and none of the stuff I wanted to do very often.

00:07:19   And so what I also learned, I was talking to our friend _DavidSmith recently, like I

00:07:24   don't know, a couple hours ago.

00:07:26   Because, you know, DavidSmith has lots of apps.

00:07:30   He has a portfolio of many apps.

00:07:32   He does a lot of things.

00:07:34   I don't think I can really do that.

00:07:36   You know, when I started working on the magazine alongside Instapaper, I started learning some

00:07:40   of these difficulties in my motivation or my personality or whatever it is.

00:07:46   I'm not very good at working on multiple apps at the same time, of the same type.

00:07:51   I can do a web app and a native app that those are different enough.

00:07:55   I can do an app, a podcast, and a blog because those are very different things, and they

00:08:01   serve different parts of my brain and my satisfaction in what I do and what I make.

00:08:08   But I really don't think I'm very good at having multiple apps that all need attention.

00:08:15   When I had the nursing clock app, that was nothing. I crapped it out in a couple of days

00:08:21   and it didn't require any maintenance. It made something like thirty bucks over the

00:08:25   course of its life. It didn't require any maintenance. That's a whole other story.

00:08:31   But to have two apps going at the same time that both need a good amount of attention

00:08:36   ongoing, I can't do that. I really don't work well that way. So I really, I wanted

00:08:44   to start this new thing I'm doing, and it's an iOS app, so I wanted to start a new thing,

00:08:53   and I know I could have kept doing the magazine, but I was so not that into it already, just

00:08:59   because of what my job had become that I created for myself, I was so not that into it already,

00:09:05   I wanted a clean plate.

00:09:09   I wanted to have nothing else competing for my attention in the app space.

00:09:13   Also, I mentioned last episode or recently, I don't know

00:09:17   when, I don't want to talk this whole episode by the way, but I mentioned last episode or something

00:09:21   like that, that I work in bursts of productivity.

00:09:25   Running a publication doesn't really allow you to do that because

00:09:29   there's a publication schedule. So every two weeks,

00:09:33   even though it wasn't a lot of work for me, you know, Glenn was doing almost all of it already, but

00:09:37   every two weeks I had to do XYZ.

00:09:41   And doing a podcast, that's a little bit different

00:09:45   in that it's easier and it's more of me being creative and having this creative output.

00:09:49   Publishing an issue with a magazine does not involve creativity on my

00:09:53   part by very much. I picked a few photos and picked the cover image and that's about it.

00:09:57   And then I had to pay checks to everybody and do the server push

00:10:01   stuff like that. It just wasn't that interesting. So having to do that every two weeks felt

00:10:07   like a restriction on me. Whereas, oh, and you can't really take a week off. At least

00:10:12   this show, if we really want to, we can take a week off. Not that any of us are likely

00:10:16   to do that, but if we really wanted to, we could take a week off. With a publication,

00:10:22   you can't. So it locked me into this fixed schedule, but I don't really work very well

00:10:27   that way. So that was another reason. But anyway, the main reason I wanted to sell it

00:10:33   was because I wanted to clear my plate and be able to put myself into my next project

00:10:39   fully.

00:10:42   That makes complete sense. And not to psychoanalyze you at all, but it seems to me that we're

00:10:48   seeing a trend, and certainly I've known you for a really darn long time, so I feel

00:10:53   like I'm somewhat qualified to speak about this. It seems like I'm seeing a trend that

00:10:57   anything that's compulsory you tend to not like. And in the case of the magazine, once

00:11:02   you fit…

00:11:03   You don't say…

00:11:04   Yeah, I know, right?

00:11:05   …a trend since like first grade.

00:11:06   Yeah. So, I mean, that's exactly my point. I mean, you've talked a lot about how you

00:11:10   don't really like homework. You've talked about how you don't really love paying taxes,

00:11:14   which granted, who does? You've talked…

00:11:16   I know. I love paying taxes. I don't like dealing with it.

00:11:19   Well, you know what I mean.

00:11:20   So, and also it seems like part of the reason

00:11:24   that you got turned off by the magazine

00:11:26   to build on what you were saying before

00:11:28   is because you had to be productive at certain times.

00:11:30   It's not that you hated necessarily doing the work,

00:11:34   at least that's what it, it sounds to me anyway,

00:11:36   that it's not necessarily that you hated doing the work

00:11:38   as much as you had to do it at a certain time

00:11:40   and that's really tough.

00:11:42   And the other thing I'll say,

00:11:43   and then you can refute everything I just told you

00:11:44   if you want because I'm trying to put words in your mouth.

00:11:47   The other thing I'll say is it's like the same reason you don't have the 1M anymore.

00:11:51   You've got your fancy nice car.

00:11:53   You don't want to have to choose between two equally fancy nice cars.

00:11:56   It's so ridiculously good.

00:11:57   I know.

00:11:58   And you're going to get me started and we don't want to do that because nobody can

00:12:01   listen to me.

00:12:02   Go ahead.

00:12:03   Move on.

00:12:04   But you know what I mean?

00:12:05   You don't want to have to choose between two nice things anymore than you want to have

00:12:08   to choose between two crummy things or whatever the case may be.

00:12:12   And whether or not other people understand what the burden was, the fact of the matter

00:12:17   is you felt it was a burden, and you felt that you had to work on it rather than desired

00:12:21   to, and so that's the point at which, at least to me it seems, that's the point at which

00:12:25   you sold Instapaper, when you felt like you had to work on it. It's the point in which

00:12:29   you sold the magazines, when you felt like you had to work on it, and when you didn't

00:12:32   want to work on it anymore. I mean, from an outsider's point of view, that's what I'm

00:12:36   seeing.

00:12:37   Yeah, that's pretty accurate. I mean, you know, I'm not a very complicated personality.

00:12:42   You know, there's not a lot of layers here. It's pretty much what you see is what you

00:12:47   get like you know I don't make any effort to hide all that stuff and you nailed it that's me.

00:12:51   I mean that's pretty fair. John, any observations on that before we totally sidestep?

00:12:56   No, I don't think so. I think Marco is doing what we would all do if we could.

00:13:00   Not do the things you don't want to do, do the things you do want to do, right?

00:13:05   Yeah.

00:13:05   All right, do you want to share anything about this forthcoming app? And I did not

00:13:12   figure out in advance whether or not I should ask that question.

00:13:15   So...

00:13:16   Nah, not yet.

00:13:17   I will in time.

00:13:18   You know, honestly, I'm kind of, I'm still debating in my head, because debating out

00:13:24   loud is boring, I'm still debating in my head whether to pre-announce anything about the

00:13:31   app before it's ready, whether to put up like a splash page and do all that bullsh*t.

00:13:35   Oops, I gotta bleep that.

00:13:37   Or you know, all the stuff people do, you know, just hype up their app, have a queue,

00:13:43   I'm not going to do that.

00:13:44   But put up a splash page and tease it, say, coming soon.

00:13:48   I don't know if I want to do that,

00:13:49   or if I want to just say what the app will be,

00:13:51   and then collect feedback at the expense of having competitors

00:13:55   then copy me and stuff.

00:13:56   So I don't know.

00:13:58   I'm going to decide all those things

00:14:00   over the next few months.

00:14:02   But what I have decided is that I'm not

00:14:06   going to make any major decisions about the app's

00:14:10   feature set or design or layout or navigational structure

00:14:14   until after WVDC.

00:14:15   Because I want to see what iOS 7 introduces.

00:14:17   I want to see what's different and what's coming up.

00:14:19   And then I will decide fully, here's

00:14:23   the kind of feature set this will have.

00:14:25   Here's the business model.

00:14:26   If they introduce something like upgrade pricing or trials,

00:14:29   that might influence my decision on the business model.

00:14:32   So I don't want to make any decisions yet

00:14:34   on all those big things.

00:14:35   And then I'll see.

00:14:36   Maybe throughout the summer, maybe I'll tease it.

00:14:38   Maybe I will just announce it outright and it won't be available yet, or maybe I'll

00:14:43   just shut up about it until it's ready.

00:14:45   I don't know yet.

00:14:46   Well, did you see what Justin Williams is doing with whatever he's building?

00:14:50   You know, I didn't have a chance to look at that yet.

00:14:52   Yeah, the Passbook thing.

00:14:53   The Passbook thing?

00:14:54   Yeah, I forget what he's calling it.

00:14:56   Man, this is an accidental podcast.

00:14:57   PIP-Pass.

00:14:58   Any sort.

00:14:59   Yes.

00:15:00   It's a car reference, Casey.

00:15:01   We should know this.

00:15:02   I know.

00:15:03   I'm disappointed myself.

00:15:04   premise, in case you're not familiar, is you get this Passbook item into Passbook,

00:15:09   and I guess what he's doing is he's going to update it with little bits and blurbs about

00:15:14   the forthcoming app as he decides to release it. And whether or not you believe in pre-releasing

00:15:20   things and pre-announcing things, I think it's a very clever and different take on

00:15:25   something that we've seen ad nauseum our entire lives. So I didn't know, Marco, if

00:15:29   you had any thoughts on that. I guess if you haven't really looked into it, you can go

00:15:31   ahead and use the book.

00:15:32   But it looks like the point of it is to do things,

00:15:37   it looks like a combination of being able to tease apps

00:15:40   that are upcoming and also the iOS version of a newsletter.

00:15:43   Traditional software developers, especially indies

00:15:50   who have sold on the Mac and stuff, they have,

00:15:53   for a long time, had mailing lists they maintain.

00:15:56   And then, like, Rogue Amoeba has talked about this before,

00:15:59   friends over there where they hardly ever mail anything out to people, but when they

00:16:03   make a brand new product or a major update, then they will. And that's always a significant

00:16:07   source of upgrade revenue and of customers coming back

00:16:11   and buying new stuff. And people actually like that. And on iOS, there's no good way to

00:16:15   do it. You can kind of, you aren't allowed to do it with push notifications, although people

00:16:19   do, but you aren't allowed to technically. And you don't want to annoy people.

00:16:23   And you also don't usually have access to things

00:16:27   their email address.

00:16:28   So this is an interesting idea if it's

00:16:30   going to address some of that beyond just the promoting

00:16:33   upcoming app thing.

00:16:35   But I guess that's all I have to say,

00:16:37   because I don't know much about it yet.

00:16:40   John, did you have any thoughts?

00:16:42   Marco was saying he wasn't sure whether he wanted to tease

00:16:45   this thing ahead of time.

00:16:46   It seems pretty clear to me that you

00:16:48   don't want to tease it ahead of time,

00:16:49   but are only considering it because it

00:16:50   may be a good way to build good buzz for your application.

00:16:55   Well, here's the thing.

00:16:56   I've always thought building Buzz before you could actually get it is kind of a waste.

00:17:00   Because I know when...

00:17:02   I forget where I was.

00:17:04   I was talking to somebody about this.

00:17:05   Sorry to whoever that was.

00:17:06   Hopefully it wasn't you guys.

00:17:09   That there's this movie for...

00:17:12   It's a documentary about sign painters.

00:17:14   People used to paint signs by hand before vinyl signs and everything came out.

00:17:18   And they keep promoting this thing everywhere.

00:17:22   And I see it everywhere.

00:17:23   And it's a little documentary.

00:17:25   it's been at film festivals and stuff,

00:17:27   but I can't get it.

00:17:29   I can't buy it, I can't rent it, I can't view it online.

00:17:33   No matter what I do, I won't be able to get it for months.

00:17:35   And so they're getting all this publicity out there,

00:17:39   and I'm interested, I'm responding, I'm saying,

00:17:42   I want to see this movie, I will pay a few bucks right now

00:17:45   to see this movie if you can get it to me,

00:17:47   but it's not out.

00:17:48   And that drives me crazy as a customer,

00:17:52   because what's probably gonna happen

00:17:54   is it's gonna come out in six months,

00:17:55   and I won't care anymore and I will have forgotten by then.

00:17:58   So I hate pre-hyping things

00:18:01   because you get people interested.

00:18:04   I mean, this is one of the reasons

00:18:04   why the Apple strategy works so well.

00:18:06   Apple says nothing until the thing's available

00:18:10   and then it's like, all right,

00:18:10   here's this awesome new thing, you want this, right?

00:18:13   You can buy it today or this Friday.

00:18:15   You can respond immediately.

00:18:18   The hype does something for you.

00:18:19   When this product's not even available yet

00:18:22   and not gonna be available for months,

00:18:24   What can you really do with that?

00:18:26   What can you really do with all that hype?

00:18:28   Like, to me, I think it's kind of arrogant

00:18:31   to expect people to remember all that crap

00:18:34   in two or three months.

00:18:36   - Well, you would, I mean, I assume you wouldn't,

00:18:37   like, it's a spectrum here.

00:18:39   You wouldn't tease it way, way, way ahead of time,

00:18:41   but perhaps, like, basically, first,

00:18:43   you don't put anything up until the thing

00:18:44   is basically done, and all you're doing

00:18:46   is delaying it so you can build this hype.

00:18:47   So maybe if it's only, like, one week or two weeks lead time

00:18:50   when you are actually finished, basically,

00:18:52   you're just like, "This is the ramp up to sale." I wouldn't say do like they do with the movies

00:18:57   and tease it the summer before it comes out with some obscure image to get people excited about

00:19:02   what the movie is. What I was getting at before is that if marketing was not a factor at all,

00:19:11   and human beings weren't buying this application and you were just making it for your own

00:19:15   edification, you would release it when it's done and not say anything about it ahead of time. I

00:19:20   I mean, you won't even say what it is at this point.

00:19:23   So it seems like your inclination is, "Why would I ever tell anyone anything until it's

00:19:27   done, and then I would give it to you, and here it is."

00:19:29   But the only reason you're considering it is because maybe that attitude is a little

00:19:33   bit too close to this.

00:19:34   Maybe there's something that's a happy medium where three days before I have a countdown

00:19:38   clock or a week ahead of time I put an image or something like that.

00:19:41   You know what I mean?

00:19:42   I mean, you have to look at it as, for me, what's in it for me, really?

00:19:47   What is my benefit from pre-announcing and pre-teasing something?

00:19:53   It's hard, honestly.

00:19:54   I would love to share stuff with people.

00:19:55   I would love to share information with people.

00:19:57   I've been burned a lot in the past by being ripped off.

00:20:01   I'm still very sensitive to that.

00:20:03   I'm trying to reduce my sensitivity to that over time, but I still am very sensitive to

00:20:08   it.

00:20:09   The last thing I want to do is announce what I'm going to do and then get ripped off before

00:20:14   I even do it.

00:20:15   Everything is a remix, Marco.

00:20:19   The one thing I would say and then maybe we can do a quick sponsor.

00:20:22   The one thing I would say is that in my personal opinion, you've just preannounced everything

00:20:27   you should need to preannounce or need is probably a poor choice of words but everything

00:20:31   you might want to preannounce.

00:20:33   We know that you're working on an iOS app.

00:20:35   We know that it's going to be something different and I don't think we really need

00:20:38   to know any more than that.

00:20:39   I think I echo what you were saying earlier, that it's almost disrespectful to say more

00:20:45   than that.

00:20:46   I mean, people know you've cleaned your plate of all your obligations.

00:20:49   Presumably you've found something that's no longer compulsory but actually interesting

00:20:53   to work on.

00:20:54   And so everyone knows that you're not going to sit on your island with your yachts and

00:20:58   helicopters and your M5 and drive in circles.

00:21:01   So that's all I think anyone wants to know, is that we're going to get something else

00:21:05   in the world thanks to you.

00:21:07   I can tell you that it will contain a UI WebView.

00:21:10   And it is not a watch.

00:21:11   Ooh.

00:21:14   Fair enough.

00:21:15   So who do we like?

00:21:17   This week, we have two brand new sponsors.

00:21:19   I'll tell you about the first one right now.

00:21:21   The first one is from RAM object software.

00:21:23   It's called Oxygen for Cocoa.

00:21:26   And it's a new programming language.

00:21:29   And it's for Cocoa and the Objective-C runtime.

00:21:31   So I want to explain this properly.

00:21:33   Give me some leeway here.

00:21:35   So they say, especially they even address this comment to John,

00:21:38   it is not a bridge, and it is not an abstraction layer.

00:21:42   It is a true language for the platform,

00:21:45   and it replaces Objective-C within the tool stack.

00:21:48   So it gives you full and direct access

00:21:51   to all the Cocoa classes and APIs.

00:21:53   All the objects you interact with in the code

00:21:55   are the real Objective-C objects.

00:21:57   You're calling methods on a real UI button,

00:21:59   you're implementing a real UI table view controller

00:22:01   subclass, et cetera.

00:22:03   And it compiles down to regular Objective-C runtime objects

00:22:06   and native code.

00:22:08   So the resulting executable is all but indistinguishable

00:22:11   from one created with Objective-C and Xcode.

00:22:13   And if you debug the app or if you run it in instruments,

00:22:16   it looks like it's written in Objective-C,

00:22:17   so all those things just work.

00:22:19   So the language is based on object Pascal.

00:22:22   But there's a good reason that their tagline is,

00:22:25   it's not your daddy's Pascal.

00:22:27   I don't know, my daddy didn't have Pascal, maybe yours did.

00:22:29   'Cause it goes well beyond what most people associate

00:22:32   with Pascal, but it maintains all the readability

00:22:35   and consistency that makes Pascal a great language.

00:22:37   So it has many advanced features that they say blows Objective

00:22:41   C out of the water, things like future types, class contracts,

00:22:45   and many elements that make it just more

00:22:46   convenient and straightforward to use in Objective C.

00:22:49   For instance, you can use plus to concatenate two NS strings,

00:22:52   and it will automatically box from integer to an NS number

00:22:55   if you call method on it, stuff like that.

00:22:58   And the other cool thing about this

00:23:00   is that this Oxygen language is also available for the .NET

00:23:03   platform and for Java and Android.

00:23:06   So if you are writing applications

00:23:07   for multiple platforms or, say, a server back end,

00:23:10   you can do it all in the same language.

00:23:12   Oxygen has been around on .NET for about eight years,

00:23:15   and it's the most widely used non-Microsoft language

00:23:18   on the platform.

00:23:20   So what they say is it isn't to encourage the write

00:23:26   once, run everywhere kind of crappy cross-platform apps,

00:23:29   But it's designed to let you create platforms--

00:23:31   or create apps for each platform natively,

00:23:33   but you can use the same language in all places.

00:23:35   So you learn it once, and then you know it.

00:23:38   Anyway, you can find out more at remobjects.com.

00:23:41   That's R-E-M objects.com/oxygen.

00:23:45   But it's oxygen spelled with an E on the end.

00:23:47   So it looks like oxygen, but it's pronounced oxygen.

00:23:50   So O-X-Y-G-E-N-E. Or you can go to oxygenlanguage.com,

00:23:54   spelled the same way.

00:23:56   Listeners of this show can get 20% off any of the product

00:23:58   with coupon code ATP13.

00:24:01   Once again, that's ramobjects.com/oxygen

00:24:03   with an E on the end,

00:24:04   and use coupon code ATP13 for 20% off.

00:24:07   Thank you very much to Oxygen for Cocoa

00:24:12   from RamObject Software.

00:24:14   I was pronouncing this Oxygen in my head

00:24:15   the entire time we were setting up the sponsorship

00:24:17   until they gave me the text and they--

00:24:18   - Yeah, a lot of people-- - They specifically gave me

00:24:19   the pronunciation guide that it is pronounced Oxygen.

00:24:23   - Yeah, the people have been sending me the links

00:24:25   and I was going to the site and reading the site

00:24:27   and also pronouncing it the wrong way into my head.

00:24:29   Yeah.

00:24:30   Pronounce "Oxygen" but spell "Oxygen."

00:24:32   All right.

00:24:33   The top thing on their site should have been just the pronunciation guy.

00:24:37   Is there anyone behind this that we would know?

00:24:39   Because I always wonder where these companies come from, because what they're doing is not

00:24:42   something like, "Oh, I just think I'll do this thing where you write in one language

00:24:45   and deploy on all these different platforms."

00:24:47   Yeah, it isn't a small job.

00:24:48   Right.

00:24:49   And yet, they seem like, "Where do these people come from?"

00:24:53   where they must have been toiling on this in obscurity for years.

00:24:57   Well, they said they've been on Microsoft platforms for eight years. So I think that's

00:25:01   probably where they came from, is they started out there and then they migrated the language.

00:25:05   They were just off our radar, I guess. Yeah, and now they've branched out into iOS. That

00:25:07   makes some sense, because I'm like, "How in the world do you ever accomplish that in any

00:25:12   reasonable time frame?" I have no idea. And more importantly, you look at this and you're

00:25:17   like, "Why can't Apple do stuff like this?" But they're not.

00:25:21   can. They just, yeah, aren't they? Well, they don't care about anyone but themselves.

00:25:25   They themselves. And paying taxes. Let's have a whole podcast about paying taxes. That sounds

00:25:29   like fun. Oh, that sounds super fun. Oh, God.

00:25:33   And sort of kind of speaking of paying taxes, the other thing I wanted to at least briefly

00:25:37   talk about is Tim Cook at All Things D, which was what, last night, I believe, at the time

00:25:43   of recording, which is Tuesday night. So there were a couple of interesting things that came

00:25:50   of this and to be honest this conversation may be fairly short but one of the things

00:25:55   that I thought was really awesome was the way he talked about how Apple views their

00:26:03   job. Tim said, "We think that the customer pays us to make certain choices on their behalf.

00:26:11   Instead of going in and I've seen some settings on these phones where it said that you're

00:26:18   deep into the bowels of the thing, choosing this and that and the other and the other

00:26:22   and the other. I don't think that's what most customers want. Do some want it? Yes, of course.

00:26:28   But is that a mainstream customer want? I don't think so.

00:26:33   I thought that was about as good a way as any that I've ever heard somebody sum up the

00:26:39   way Apple approaches products. And I know when I talk to a lot of my developer friends,

00:26:46   particularly the local ones that work, say, in .NET or other languages, they all get very

00:26:50   angry about the fact that they don't have a lot of control over iOS devices, and that's

00:26:54   why a lot of them use Android devices.

00:26:57   And I keep coming back to, you know, five, ten years ago, maybe ten years ago, I would

00:27:02   have much preferred an Android device because I could fiddle with it and tweak it and turn

00:27:07   it into something honestly kind of awful.

00:27:10   But now I just want stuff to work, and I want Apple to make those choices for me.

00:27:15   And again, I thought this was just an unbelievably good and short way of summing it up.

00:27:19   I don't know what you guys thought about it.

00:27:22   I always get nervous when I hear Tim Cook saying product-related things.

00:27:26   Not that I think he shouldn't.

00:27:28   I mean, the CEO, he speaks for the company, that's fine and everything.

00:27:33   But I guess my picture of him in my head is not that—that's not his strength.

00:27:39   I would much rather see him—when he starts talking about a similar thing like why they

00:27:43   don't have a large line of phones and all the different things about international business

00:27:48   and manufacturing.

00:27:49   I'm confident that he's an expert in those areas.

00:27:51   But in these other areas, I feel like he is doing what a lot of other normal CEOs do,

00:27:56   which is relaying the result of discussions with the lower level experts in the company

00:28:03   who are at the tier below him or the tier below them.

00:28:08   I don't know, it does sound right.

00:28:13   It sounds like a summary to me of previous discussions.

00:28:17   If you left it up to Tim Cook what things would be allowed to be in settings and what

00:28:21   things wouldn't be, I feel like he would make bad decisions in one direction or another.

00:28:26   He would have very few settings, but they would be the wrong settings, or he would have

00:28:30   no settings, and that's untenable.

00:28:31   Just ask Marco.

00:28:32   Or he would have too many settings.

00:28:37   The whole settings thing, this could be a whole separate topic, the reason we talk about

00:28:43   it is because it's not easy.

00:28:44   You can't just give a rule like, "Oh, you should have no settings," or, "You should

00:28:47   have as few settings as possible."

00:28:49   You have to have just the exact right settings, and you have to know, and it's kind of like

00:28:54   a gut feeling or whatever, what are the right settings to have?

00:28:56   What is important and what isn't?

00:28:58   Because we all know that the settings in an application can make or break it, right?

00:29:02   It doesn't mean you have to have a lot of them, but if you don't know what you're doing,

00:29:05   yeah, then you end up with a lot of them.

00:29:06   And it's like, well, at least everyone who needs to change something can change the thing

00:29:09   they want to change.

00:29:10   That's pretty terrible, right?

00:29:11   But by the same token, if you put in the wrong settings, there's only three settings, and

00:29:14   they're the wrong ones, it's like, "Man, this app would be perfect if I could only do X."

00:29:19   And it doesn't have to be a frivolous thing.

00:29:21   It could be something important.

00:29:23   It totally breaks the way I work with this application because I can't change this particular

00:29:29   behavior and it drives me insane.

00:29:30   and the application is no good for you.

00:29:33   And everyone's got one of those, and you can't include everybody, so that's the art of it,

00:29:36   figuring out for most people, these are the top five most important things that should

00:29:41   be settings because neither decision is clearly the right thing to do, and that's what I'm

00:29:45   going to go with.

00:29:46   And that is sort of an art more than anything else.

00:29:47   So when I hear a manager-y type person giving a pat answer, like, "Oh, they pay us to make

00:29:51   decisions for them," and I know some people want settings, but most people don't, and

00:29:55   people applaud that.

00:29:56   I'm like, "That's like a platitude.

00:30:00   If I know that it's backed by the good taste to know which ones to set, then that's fine.

00:30:05   But if I just hear it in isolation, I'm like, "Well, you know, I'm not impressed by that

00:30:09   statement."

00:30:10   Or if I'm being mean to Tim Cook, I don't know.

00:30:12   Well, no, I don't think you're being mean to Tim Cook, but what I think is hard is to

00:30:18   realize—or at least hard for me anyway—is to realize that Tim may not be the man that

00:30:24   knows that, unlike Steve, but he's smart enough to find the person, man or woman, that

00:30:31   can make that call and empower them to do so.

00:30:34   And I think giving Johnny, Ive, and Craig Federicchi a little bit more control is evidence

00:30:41   of that.

00:30:42   That I think Tim knows that he's not that guy, but he will empower the guy or girl that

00:30:47   is that guy or girl.

00:30:49   Did that make any sense at all?

00:30:50   Yeah.

00:30:51   Like, he's got it.

00:30:52   It's unfair to him.

00:30:53   can be on that stage, and it's got to be him. So he has to speak for the whole company,

00:30:57   right? I mean, like you said, we were kind of spoiled by Steve Jobs, where he could speak

00:31:01   about that particular topic. Like, it was reversed with Steve Jobs. When Steve Jobs

00:31:04   would talk about, like, supply chains and inventory and transformation, then you could

00:31:08   tell he was not talking about something that he was deeply knowledgeable about, but he

00:31:11   was merely channeling Tim Cook. And it's weird to see that reversed now, you know, when Tim

00:31:15   is talking about financial stuff and supply chains. That's like him talking, and the other

00:31:20   times it's him representing the rest of the company.

00:31:23   Well, I think, first of all, I think it's worth pointing out that Steve did make tons

00:31:29   of bad decisions. And he did often rely on the people below him arguing with him until

00:31:35   he relented. And sometimes he didn't relent and shipped bad decisions to the public and

00:31:41   then had to go back on those. So, you know, there's that. Anyway, I think, John, I think

00:31:47   you're being a little bit mean to Tim Cook here. I think, you know, you look at this

00:31:53   guy talk, and I think, you know, I'm about halfway through the video. I read the live

00:31:59   stream last night as it was happening, but the live stream really does not capture it

00:32:02   very well. First of all, the live streams generally paraphrase. They don't usually say

00:32:08   the exact words, because they usually can't keep up. And so, you know, it helps to watch

00:32:16   the video to really get an idea of what he said, exactly what he said and how he said

00:32:21   it. And you look at this guy speak and he is a rock. I mean, he is rock stable, rock

00:32:29   solid. He was the same with Congress. Like, you can't make this guy flinch. And I think

00:32:35   if he was mainly just repeating things he was told or things he had been taught by the

00:32:42   the lower down people about the product philosophies and stuff, I don't think he would be quite

00:32:47   as solid when talking about them. And I think you'd see him doing a lot more misstatements

00:32:53   or kind of awkward, clumsy handling of the statements, but he doesn't do that. He's rock

00:32:57   solid. And so I think he really has internalized everything he needs to internalize to be the

00:33:08   CEO of a product-focused company like this. I really think that he knows a lot more and

00:33:14   that he has a lot more of these sensibilities than you give him credit for here.

00:33:18   Well, what I'm looking for is basically like, you know, I don't think he doubts that he's

00:33:22   shaky on any of the principles, but when it comes down to it, as I said, the tricky part

00:33:27   about this is not this unlike a lot of the economic stuff is not a science. It's more

00:33:31   of an art, and he's not the one with that gut feeling that is going to drive the company.

00:33:36   As you said, Steve Jobs has got—was wrong plenty of times, too.

00:33:39   But for the most part, in the big sweeping decisions, like, "We should make a teal

00:33:44   computer.

00:33:45   We should make a music player.

00:33:46   And it should be like this.

00:33:47   And we should get into phones.

00:33:48   And it's not going to ship until it's good enough for me."

00:33:51   Like, in the big things, his gut was what drove these things.

00:33:55   So it's one thing to say, you know, this abstract philosophy of, "We'll make decisions

00:34:00   for you and choose what needs to be in the application and what doesn't."

00:34:04   And it's another thing to know that that is also the guy whose gut is going to guide big,

00:34:09   sweeping things like, "What is Mac OS X going to look like?"

00:34:12   The fact that it was all crazy and blue and shiny or whatever, right?

00:34:17   Was that the right thing to do?

00:34:18   The wrong thing to do?

00:34:19   I mean, your gut can be wrong about these things.

00:34:20   And he's not the guy with that, right?

00:34:23   That's true.

00:34:24   Yeah.

00:34:25   Even though he understands the principles.

00:34:26   Like I said, I think it's basically the reverse of jobs, because whenever Jobs talked about

00:34:29   the economic stuff, he was a smart guy.

00:34:31   He knew all the principles.

00:34:32   but when it came down to it to decide which supplier should do what and how much of the flash memory should be pre-buy

00:34:37   and is this a good deal or are we going to be saddled with tons of LCDs that we don't need or should we wait for this?

00:34:42   He wasn't the guy to make that call, but he just understood all the underlying concepts.

00:34:46   And it's probably true that Tim Cook is much more solid when talking about topics that he's not the super duper expert in than Jobs was,

00:34:55   because when Jobs did talk about economics, he sounded more like he was somebody merely parroting things that he learned from other people,

00:35:00   even though he also probably understood them.

00:35:02   But I think the thing that is in Tim Cook's favor during this entire thing,

00:35:07   and especially I think back to last year's WWDC,

00:35:09   which I probably came across in the keynote,

00:35:11   but I mean, we were there and we saw him as a speck on the stage or whatever,

00:35:14   but you can kind of feel it in the room,

00:35:15   that Tim Cook has the same enthusiasm and passion

00:35:19   and he's not faking it that Steve Jobs had for these things.

00:35:21   I think about the time when he was on stage talking about the blind guy

00:35:25   using the iPad to walk around the woods and everything.

00:35:27   Unless he's an Academy Award-winning actor, he was not faking the fact that that made

00:35:34   him feel like what he's doing with his career in life is meaningful.

00:35:37   More so than all the stuff they ask about, market share and different moles of phones

00:35:41   or whatever, he is really touched by the idea that the things he's making are changing the

00:35:47   world in a touchy-feely, Apple, goofy kind of way.

00:35:51   And that, I think, is his best asset as CEO.

00:35:55   Well, okay, second best.

00:35:57   to his expertise in the job that he had before he was CEO is the fact that he really is enthusiastic

00:36:04   about this stuff.

00:36:05   And he's not a bean counter, and he's not just out there to steer a ship, or he's not

00:36:12   just a manager for manager's sake.

00:36:13   That's why he left Compaq or wherever he was before, why John Sculley left Pepsi.

00:36:19   You don't want to sell sugar water, you want to come with Steve and change the world.

00:36:22   And with Tim, too, I think we've really seen, over the last year especially, we've

00:36:27   really seen him just develop this incredible image of just not only being an absolute rock

00:36:36   about everything, and this is definitely a guy you'd want running your company, but

00:36:41   you can also tell that, A, he's not an idiot on any level.

00:36:45   Like, to use a Steve Jobs word, he's not a bozo at all.

00:36:49   you can tell this guy is sharp and knows exactly what he's doing. But he's also,

00:36:53   and he has, he's very deliberate in what he does. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't

00:36:57   feel like he's like, you know, thrown spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. It seems

00:37:02   like he's really being very deliberate about everything he does. But also, he projects

00:37:07   a very, just a very nice personality when he speaks publicly. He seems, he seems extremely

00:37:14   polite, well-spoken, personable, but still firm and strong.

00:37:20   And so I think he has like the perfect image of what you'd want a CEO of an important company

00:37:27   to have.

00:37:29   And he's extremely deliberate in the way he speaks as well.

00:37:33   Something I wish I could be better about is taking a moment to think about what you were

00:37:37   going to say, especially in like a one-on-one conversation.

00:37:40   This podcast is a little bit different, but if you're in a serious conversation, say,

00:37:45   you know, remember that I do consulting for a living.

00:37:47   So, say I'm at a client and they ask me a question, my natural inclination is to fire

00:37:52   off an answer immediately.

00:37:53   And one thing that I respect deeply about Tim is that he will sit there and allow a

00:37:59   silence so he can collect his thoughts and make sure that his answer is a great one.

00:38:05   Not just a good one.

00:38:06   Not just an acceptable one, but a great one.

00:38:09   That was a big Steve Jobs-ism.

00:38:11   Steve Jobs would just let that pause.

00:38:12   And at a certain point when Steve Jobs did it, you wondered, "Is he pausing together

00:38:16   his thoughts, or is now this kind of a head game?"

00:38:19   Where he's pausing.

00:38:21   Like he already knows what he's going to say, but he's just like, "A little longer."

00:38:25   Like in that, what was that, WRC 1998 or whatever thing where he was doing Q&A, and the guy

00:38:30   asked him the obnoxious question about—I forget what the obnoxious question is.

00:38:34   Like, "It was clear that you don't know what you're doing."

00:38:36   Or whatever.

00:38:37   He was angry about OpenDoc or something or whatever.

00:38:38   And the pause after that, I should time it in the video.

00:38:41   It's like so long where he's waiting for the response there.

00:38:43   If I could think of a couple more mean things to say about Tim Cook.

00:38:48   It's not mean.

00:38:49   It's just like we're all comparing to Steve Jobs, right?

00:38:51   And with any kind of powerful person speaking publicly, you basically get two choices.

00:38:58   You get the guy who really, truly believes what he's saying and is earnest about it,

00:39:04   and the guy who says exactly the right thing but gives some kind of hint that he also knows

00:39:12   that it's BS.

00:39:13   And a good example is—we didn't get to talk about this—the congressional thing

00:39:15   where Tim Cook is up there explaining Apple's business and everything.

00:39:18   And Tim Cook did nothing wrong.

00:39:20   He did exactly what you're supposed to do.

00:39:22   And I can't decide—actually, I can't decide.

00:39:25   For me, I think it's worse to be the guy who really believes that everything you're

00:39:29   telling Congress is the 100% straight, honest truth.

00:39:32   Like, you know, the fact that he'd never mentioned why they had these things overseas and how

00:39:37   it was a tax avoidance scheme and stuff like that, like, everything he said was true.

00:39:41   It was just sort of an error of omission.

00:39:43   And I feel more comfortable, like, if Steve Jobs was doing it, he would make it clear

00:39:48   that everyone knows this is BS.

00:39:50   Because everyone watching knows it's BS.

00:39:51   Congress knows it's BS.

00:39:52   Tim Cook knows it.

00:39:53   We all know it's like kind of a, it's theater, right?

00:39:56   But sometimes I think that Tim, for a second or two, I think that Tim Cook really believes

00:40:00   what he's saying.

00:40:01   I'm like, "Wait a second.

00:40:02   really, you know, he's no dummy, we're all in on this or whatever, but he's so earnest,

00:40:06   and you're like, "Oh my god, maybe he really believes that, maybe," you know, I'm like,

00:40:10   "No, come on, he doesn't really believe that," and to me that's worse. I would rather have,

00:40:13   like, the guy who's in on the sort of shared delusion that we're all, you know, the suspension

00:40:21   of disbelief for this theater type thing than the true believer type thing, because the second Tim

00:40:25   If Tim Cook really believes that everything he omitted in discussing Apple's various tax

00:40:31   shelters doesn't exist, then we know we're in trouble.

00:40:36   Maybe that's just testament to how incredibly earnest and honest, like for a second, he

00:40:40   can make me believe that he really believes it.

00:40:44   Before we exit the Tim Cook, all things D topic, I do want to point out also that a

00:40:49   lot of people have said, "Oh, he hasn't really said anything here.

00:40:52   He didn't say anything new, or he didn't learn anything."

00:40:55   think that's all crap. I think he said quite a lot. And he said it in the Apple way and

00:41:01   in the Tim Cook way, but I think he said quite a lot of interesting things.

00:41:06   That's criminology. I mean, if you go back, I would watch the Steve Jobs one, and you're

00:41:09   all just looking to see. He's never going to say, "Say it." So there's reporters

00:41:13   who have no idea about, just generic reporters who go through it and go, "Oh, it doesn't

00:41:18   seem like he said anything." But for people who are following every single fart that comes

00:41:23   out of Apple when you ask him, "What do you think about big screens? I guess you guys

00:41:28   are making one or whatever." And the first thing that's out of his mouth is, "Well, we're

00:41:31   not making one yet." That's the answer. That is the biggest answer you're ever going to

00:41:38   get out of anything. Even Steve Jobs was never that open, even on his wildest days.

00:41:43   Right. Yeah. What he's saying is perfectly clear. We're not making one yet. We're not

00:41:46   ruling it out for the future or whatever. He doesn't say that if they don't have a larger

00:41:50   a screen phone in the planning stages already. Little things like that were dropped everywhere

00:41:57   about time-lining the television, time-lining anything that's wearable. It reminds me of

00:42:04   Steve Jobs way before the iPhone, like five years or something before that, when people

00:42:12   were asking Apple about PDAs. That was the big thing to do. It's like, "Is Apple going

00:42:15   to make a PDA?" If they had tried to buy Palm or Handspring or something and been rebuffed

00:42:19   and none of them ever announced that. It was all secret rumors and stuff. And people kept

00:42:24   asking about PDAs. And at a certain point, Apple would give answers and no comments or

00:42:29   whatever. At a certain point, Steve Jobs said to some reporter, "We believe that phones

00:42:33   are where the future of this business is going to be." Boom, Apple's making a phone. That's

00:42:37   all you needed. And that's why for years, my friends and I were like, "When is the iPhone

00:42:42   coming?" And we would just call it the iPhone because it was the iMac and the iPod. "When

00:42:45   is the iPhone coming?" And then we started to lose faith. We're like, "Maybe they're

00:42:48   never going to make a phone. It's been such a long time. But back then, when you make

00:42:53   a statement like that to a reporter, you might as well just come out and say exactly what

00:42:57   you're doing. I guess reporters can't report on it because it would be—he didn't really

00:43:02   say that, but for people reading the tea leaves, it's all out there in the open in his answers.

00:43:09   I would say specifically, he seemed to confirm—in his Tim Cook and in the Apple way—he seemed

00:43:16   to confirm that they are working on some kind of watch-like device that includes multiple

00:43:22   types of sensors and serves multiple functions. Didn't you get that impression from what he

00:43:26   said?

00:43:27   Yeah, he said wearable. Oh, yeah, that wearable stuff. I think there might be something to

00:43:29   that. It's a really interesting area.

00:43:30   But it has to do multiple things. It can't just do one thing, and it has to have multiple

00:43:35   sensors. I'm thinking he's looking to replace that Nike fuel band on his wrist.

00:43:39   He's describing his product obliquely at that point.

00:43:42   I mean, I think that was a very clear, not even a hint, that was like beating you over

00:43:48   the head, "We are doing something like a watch that's going to have multiple sensors

00:43:52   and certain multiples."

00:43:53   Yeah, that combined with the entering new product categories for your earning call.

00:43:56   And possibly as soon as this fall, it seemed.

00:43:59   The people freak out about it like we did with the phone thing.

00:44:01   The phone didn't come out for like five years or whatever it was.

00:44:04   It was some insane amount it seemed like forever, right?

00:44:06   It doesn't mean that the watch is coming out next week.

00:44:09   That's the problem with the echo chamber of the news.

00:44:11   Like, "Oh, the watch is coming.

00:44:13   It's going to come out any second."

00:44:16   The timelines in these things are huge.

00:44:17   You just read the tea leaves to see, "All right, is this something that Apple's even

00:44:21   looking at?"

00:44:22   Because if you would ask them if Apple was thinking of making a car, his answer would

00:44:25   have not been, "The car airspace is really interesting.

00:44:27   I think a car made by Apple could be really interesting, and it would have to use multiple

00:44:31   sensors."

00:44:32   No, he would say, "No, we're not interested."

00:44:35   It's a different answer.

00:44:37   All it does is tell you that something that you wear that you purchased from Apple that's

00:44:42   not a clip-on iPod shuffle is potentially in the future of this company and tells you

00:44:46   nothing about the timeline other than it's probably not a decade from now.

00:44:51   But even on the timeline, I think he was pretty clear that we're going to see a new category

00:44:55   from Apple this fall or early next year.

00:44:58   That could have been the TV had he not put the kibosh on that in his answers at the de-conference,

00:45:03   right?

00:45:04   Like, earnings call was like a new category, and everyone's like, "Okay, is the new

00:45:07   category TV?" which has been rumored for a really long time, or "Is the new category

00:45:10   something that you wear?" which has also been rumored.

00:45:12   And then, fast forward to the conference, he gets asked both questions, gives very different

00:45:16   answers, and you're like, "All right, I guess it's the thing you wear."

00:45:18   Now, didn't he—was it him that said that nobody wears watches anymore?

00:45:24   Yeah.

00:45:25   But what was interesting, he said—like, the livestreams kind of transcribed this quickly,

00:45:28   but what he actually said was like,

00:45:31   - For something to work here,

00:45:33   you first have to convince people it's so incredible

00:45:38   that they wanna wear it,

00:45:39   because where, you two guys are wearing watches.

00:45:44   If we had a room full of 10 to 20 year olds,

00:45:47   and we said everybody stand up that has a watch on,

00:45:54   I'm not sure anybody would stand up.

00:45:57   I don't see it.

00:45:59   - 10 to 20 year old, I mean, yeah, okay,

00:46:00   so the guy deals with data?

00:46:02   That sounded a lot like they did a survey.

00:46:05   Like that's, it sounded like that was data

00:46:07   that they had looked up already.

00:46:08   Like he wasn't just, like that's the kind of thing

00:46:11   that Steve would just kind of wing from his gut.

00:46:14   - They did market research. - Tim, I don't think would.

00:46:15   I think Tim, he was talking as though

00:46:18   they were already looking into this.

00:46:19   And he, like the comments about multiple sensors

00:46:22   and about glasses sucking, I really think he was

00:46:25   pretty clearly telling us there's going to be something here.

00:46:30   Apple under Steve Jobs did do lots of market research. Jobs liked to downplay it, and he

00:46:34   would say they didn't do focus groups for the design, which is true, but the best example

00:46:38   I can think of that is, speaking of nobody-wears-watches-anymore, is when people were asking about, "Is

00:46:42   Apple going to do some—is it pre-iPad? Is Apple going to do some sort of reading device

00:46:45   or whatever?" And he said, "Nobody reads anymore," and then he threw out a couple

00:46:51   statistics. The only way he would know those statistics off the top of his head is from

00:46:57   Apple's own market research that they had done in the planning stages for making the

00:47:00   iPod or iPad, which was so clearly in development then. By quoting a statistic that is supposed

00:47:08   to be shooting down the argument of the person who's saying, "Oh, you should make this thing."

00:47:11   "Oh, nobody reads anymore." People say that, surveys show that people from this age group,

00:47:16   I forget what statistic he threw out, but you don't know that statistic off the top

00:47:19   head if you had not investigated it. So it's the same type of thing. Yeah, they did do market

00:47:25   research. They continue to do market research to see, you know, to decide what kind of product

00:47:29   they're going to make. I don't know if Tim does more of it than Steve. I know Steve definitely

00:47:33   wanted to downplay the idea that they, you know, it's anything other than springing from their

00:47:39   creativity. But yeah, they're a big company. Of course, they do market research. So I'm sure they

00:47:44   know exactly how many people of what ages wear watches or would be willing to wear something

00:47:48   and so on. Well, right, and to that end, when he says, you know, if you have a room full, was it 10

00:47:54   20-year-olds or 10 to 20-year-olds? It doesn't matter. I'll have to rewind. I think it was 10

00:47:58   to 20-year-olds. 10 to 20-year-olds. But to be honest, it doesn't matter. The point I'm driving

00:48:03   at is when he says, "Oh, nobody in the 10 to 20-year-old range," or whatever the statistic was,

00:48:07   "wears a watch," is that like a Barney Stinson challenge accepted moment? Or is that him saying,

00:48:13   "No, really, nobody wants a watch and there's nothing we can do to stop it." Well, what he was

00:48:17   - What he was saying, the theme of what he was saying

00:48:21   was basically that if you're gonna convince people

00:48:25   to wear a watch, it has to be really, really good.

00:48:29   And implying that what's on the market now

00:48:31   in the field of smart watches is not good enough

00:48:34   to convince people to wear a watch who weren't already

00:48:36   and who weren't nerds like people who were buying Google Glass

00:48:40   and so it sounded like what he was saying

00:48:44   was a combination of Google Glass is a total flop

00:48:47   and nobody will wear it,

00:48:48   and we think there's something to be had in the watch area,

00:48:53   but nothing else out there is good enough yet,

00:48:54   which is typical Apple stuff to say

00:48:57   before they enter a market.

00:48:59   - Right, that's exactly my point,

00:49:00   is they're saying, "Well, right now it all sucks,

00:49:02   "but the underlying under your breath comment is,

00:49:07   "'Oh, but we'll show you.'"

00:49:09   - Exactly.

00:49:10   - It's like men's hats, you know, whatever.

00:49:13   The '40s were all—you look at those old movies, all the men on the street in New York

00:49:17   City were all wearing hats, right?

00:49:19   And then eventually that fell out of favor, and then nobody wears a hat to work.

00:49:22   And in fact, it would be rude to wear a hat to work if you were wearing a baseball hat

00:49:26   or something, right?

00:49:27   So men's dress hats—and I guess women's dress hats to some degree—fell out of fashion.

00:49:32   So if you had asked 60 years ago how many men wore a hat today on their way to work

00:49:37   with all their hands, they'd go, "Well, I think watches are like that," in part

00:49:39   because—actually, it started with pagers.

00:49:41   Remember when people would just start looking at their pagers to see what time it was?

00:49:45   Once you had some other way to tell what time it was, other than a watch, watches change

00:49:51   from this practical thing that you had to wear so you got places on time into merely

00:49:55   like jewelry, like a fashion accessory.

00:49:57   People still do wear watches, but even the people who do, I wonder if they still pick

00:50:02   up their phone to tell what time it is.

00:50:03   So like him saying, "Oh, people don't wear watches," is because the function of a watch

00:50:08   as a timekeeper that goes on your wrist, we don't need that anymore because that functionality

00:50:13   has been subsumed in these other smart devices. But if we can make something that you can

00:50:18   put on your wrist that suddenly does have value to you beyond just telling you what

00:50:21   time it was, then maybe that would be a good thing. So he's saying there's all those wrists

00:50:24   out there that don't have watches on because watches are not worth putting on your wrist.

00:50:31   Those wrists are just waiting there for something. And it doesn't have to be wrists. Who knows

00:50:34   where these things are going to be attached to your body. But something that you wear

00:50:37   Probably yes, probably on your wrist

00:50:39   That's that's what he's saying with that answer is all those wrists out

00:50:43   They're just crying out for something really cool from Apple to stick on them

00:50:46   Would do either one of you guys wear a watch no

00:50:51   You know

00:50:51   I

00:50:52   Didn't I didn't so I'd say a couple of years ago and I've always

00:50:57   Enjoyed them and I've always told myself that if I ever hit it big and sell everything that I own ahem

00:51:03   uh... that i would get myself a stupidly expensive watch and by that i mean like

00:51:07   several hundred dollars as opposed to twenty

00:51:10   uh... but i'd i'd keep telling myself i want to buy myself uh... watch and i

00:51:15   haven't worn one in a few years and on

00:51:18   too cheap to buy one

00:51:20   there is a guy in the uh... in the old tumblr office

00:51:23   and i want to say we was in case it would cause any problems but there is

00:51:26   this guy who who shared the office

00:51:29   and uh...

00:51:30   and he had a watch dealer come in

00:51:32   like twice a year to show them these new fancy, really

00:51:37   like $10,000 watches.

00:51:40   And it was this kind of short, thick guy

00:51:43   with a nondescript briefcase would come in, open up

00:51:46   the briefcase, and show off 30 grand worth of watches

00:51:49   right there.

00:51:50   It's like this whole cult of watch people.

00:51:52   Oh, yeah.

00:51:53   It's like camera people, but even more so,

00:51:55   because cameras have more of a function.

00:51:58   Once they tell time, beyond that,

00:52:00   everything else is basically just fashion. And although I was just on a podcast with

00:52:06   Guy and Rene, and I don't remember if this part of it was after the recording had ended

00:52:10   or if they'll stick it in so you can forgive me for repeating it, but we were talking about

00:52:14   the watch thing. And what I said to them was that this is such a dangerous area for Apple

00:52:21   or any other company because once you put something on your body in a way that counts

00:52:28   says "wearing," you enter this whole other realm of crazy, illogical, nonsensical, ego-entangled

00:52:37   decision-making.

00:52:38   Because the iPod Shuffle, you clip onto your clothes.

00:52:41   And most people would say you are not wearing an iPod Shuffle.

00:52:44   It's like, "Oh, it's just my iPod, but it attaches to my clothing for convenient carrying."

00:52:48   But once you have something that, "Oh, I'm wearing this," then forget it.

00:52:55   Many people will take an electronic device, carry it in their pocket, or even clip it

00:52:59   to their clothes, but the thing that people are willing to wear that is acknowledged as

00:53:03   a wearing thing is totally dictated by things that Apple really doesn't have any control

00:53:09   over.

00:53:10   I'm sure Apple's up to the challenge, but what a challenge that is.

00:53:13   Give me something that I will want to wear, because then it becomes a fashion statement,

00:53:18   an expression of self, much more so than even carrying a laptop or a phone.

00:53:23   things do you know you carry a part of your image with that thing I feel like

00:53:27   wearing is like the next level and because basically if you make this thing

00:53:30   ugly you know in the opinion of some buyer thinking about this is the most

00:53:34   awesome device ever I think it's awesome but I'm not gonna wear and like that's

00:53:38   part of the Google lasting is because that's wearing when you put that thing

00:53:41   on your head that counts as wearing something and if it looks awkward or

00:53:45   geeky and gives you a great image no matter how awesome it is you're just

00:53:47   gonna be like mmm you know I mean it's hard for me to relate because everything

00:53:51   Everything I own is unfashionable and ugly and it makes me look stupid.

00:53:56   But other people have lots of their self-image tied up into looking good.

00:54:00   And you have to sort of, I guess, not step on those landmines to get a product into their

00:54:07   hands that they're willing to wear.

00:54:08   Lots of nerds are willing.

00:54:09   I mean, look at the people willing to wear glass.

00:54:11   Some people just have no barrier.

00:54:12   Like, "Sure, I'll put anything on it if it has some practical value."

00:54:14   You should get Google Glass, John.

00:54:15   Or, "Here, futuristic.

00:54:16   Even I have my limits."

00:54:18   But yeah, and that is such a dangerous part about wearable tech.

00:54:23   And I don't know how Apple in particular is going to navigate that, because they're not

00:54:26   going to make 700 models of this.

00:54:27   Samsung is going to make 700 models of the ripoff product, right?

00:54:30   And you'll be able to find one that works for you.

00:54:32   It's the same thing with the phone cases, right?

00:54:35   Even though you don't wear a phone, people buy the phone, but then there's a bazillion

00:54:38   cases.

00:54:39   And some of the cases you find hideous, but other people love.

00:54:41   Rhinestone-encrusted things, or wooden cases, or things that look like they're made of Legos,

00:54:45   or brushed metal.

00:54:47   That's how people are able to even come to terms with the things they carry a lot of

00:54:50   the time.

00:54:51   If you can't do something similar to something that you wear, Apple's going to be in trouble

00:54:54   because no matter how neutral and tasteful they make it, some person's going to say,

00:54:58   "I wouldn't wear that.

00:54:59   I won't wear that."

00:55:00   Yes, but you're also not considering that I think Apple at the moment anyway is more

00:55:07   than not very trendy.

00:55:09   And so it's trendy and kind of cool now to have a silver laptop with a piece of fruit

00:55:16   shining on the lid. And I could swear that I had read stories years ago that people would

00:55:21   connect iPod earbuds or iPhone earbuds to non-Apple devices just so they also had the

00:55:29   white crap dangling in their ears.

00:55:31   Yeah, no, they would do that. But that's what I'm saying. I think there is a part of personal

00:55:35   expression embodied in fashionable electronic devices that you carry. And this is like the

00:55:40   next level because you're not just carrying this, you're wearing it. It's so crazy.

00:55:45   Think about shoes, you know, how crazy people are about the shoes they're willing and not

00:55:49   willing to wear.

00:55:50   How many times do you see somebody else's shoes and you think, "Man, I would never wear

00:55:53   those shoes," but the person wearing those loves those shoes.

00:55:55   They paid 300 bucks for them, right?

00:55:58   It's such an incredible range, and people will reject products that are perfectly good

00:56:03   in every possible way because they'll just say, "I can't wear that.

00:56:06   I won't wear that."

00:56:08   And it'll be really interesting to see how Apple navigates this because these are extremely

00:56:13   dangerous waters.

00:56:15   They are, but if you think about Apple's normal devices, they're extremely simple and tasteful

00:56:21   and generally speaking look good.

00:56:23   Surely not to everyone, but generally speaking there's not a lot to them, they're not very

00:56:26   flashy, and they just look good.

00:56:29   And so I actually, I do agree with you, and I think that this is a whole new territory

00:56:32   they're not used to, but I also think that they'll probably navigate these waters pretty

00:56:36   darn well.

00:56:37   Well, if they do the naked robotic core thing again, I mean, like I said, it's work for

00:56:40   them with the phone.

00:56:41   like you said, "Oh, they make something tasteful." It's very unadorned, very subdued or whatever.

00:56:46   But some people want it to be pink and rhinestone encrusted. So there better be a way for me

00:56:49   to take a pink rhinestones and shove them all over the Apple iWatch. Otherwise, I'm

00:56:53   not wearing that thing because it looks just so boring and ugly and looks like a techno

00:56:56   bobble and mine needs to have rhinestones because I'm fabulous, right?

00:56:59   John, I cannot wait to see you with your pink rhinestone encrusted watch. I am extremely

00:57:06   excited for it.

00:57:07   - Yeah, it'll go great with my Motorola clamshell phone.

00:57:10   Now with color screen.

00:57:12   - This is what happens when you get three nerds

00:57:17   talking about fashion.

00:57:19   - Yeah, it never ends well.

00:57:19   - This is fantastic.

00:57:21   - Goodness.

00:57:23   - All right, we should do our next sponsor.

00:57:24   - I was just about to ask.

00:57:25   - I missed a good time.

00:57:26   All right, our next sponsor, they need no introduction,

00:57:31   but the sad thing is that it won't apply to all of you

00:57:33   'cause there are still people out there

00:57:34   who have not bought this yet.

00:57:36   It's Solver.

00:57:37   And I don't know if it's pronounced solver.

00:57:39   I say solver in my head, but I also said oxygen in my head,

00:57:42   so my head's not always right, I guess.

00:57:45   It's solver.

00:57:45   So it's S-O-U-L-V-E-R. And what this is,

00:57:49   this is an app for the Mac, iPhone, and iPad.

00:57:53   And they told me to just wing it,

00:57:55   because they knew that I'm a massive fan of this,

00:57:57   so they didn't even give me a script.

00:58:00   Solver is basically a hybrid between a calculator,

00:58:05   a notepad and a spreadsheet. If you can kind of think of that, and I've done, if you just

00:58:10   search my site for Solver, you'll see I've posted about it like ten times over the years.

00:58:15   It, oh my God, you have to hit the, basically if I'm working, I have this app open. I have

00:58:20   it open now, even for a podcast. I always have it open. What I suggest you do, download

00:58:26   this app, I'm pretty sure there's a trial, they didn't even tell me, I should probably

00:58:29   look that up. I'm pretty sure. Yes, there is a trial. Download the app, give it a shot.

00:58:37   What you want to do is just once you install this app, even just the trial, just hide calculator.

00:58:44   If you have it in your dock, take it out of your dock. Never launch calculator again.

00:58:48   And I suggest trying it on the Mac first, because that's really, in my opinion, that's

00:58:51   where I use it the most. That's where it's best. Try it out instead of calculator. And

00:58:56   Any time you would try to figure out some little computation,

00:59:01   type it into a Scratch Silver document instead.

00:59:04   And once you start using it for like a day,

00:59:07   you will instantly realize, oh my god,

00:59:10   why have I been using stupid calculator apps besides this

00:59:14   all these years?

00:59:15   Like why have I taken so long to find this app?

00:59:19   It's basically a scratch pad for numbers.

00:59:22   So I started using this, I don't know,

00:59:26   2005 or something like that. They've been around forever. Started using it forever ago.

00:59:30   And ever since I started using it, I hardly ever use spreadsheets anymore. And I never

00:59:36   use Calculator anymore. It is, and it's for programmers, for people who are just doing

00:59:42   simple calculations. Basically, if you're the kind of person who has ever launched the

00:59:46   Calculator app on your computer, you can probably use this and you can probably benefit from

00:59:50   So, it's called Solver, S-O-U-L-V-E-R.

00:59:54   It's 20 bucks in the Mac App Store or directly from their site.

00:59:57   They also have some volume license discounts.

01:00:00   You can get, for instance, a four computer household pack for only 25 bucks.

01:00:06   You can get volume licenses. This is the kind of thing like,

01:00:09   if I was running a business with employees, which I guess I won't do because I apparently hate doing that,

01:00:13   but if I was running a business with employees, I would buy one of these for every employee

01:00:17   for every employee and just have it, just hide calculator on the computers, do some

01:00:21   kind of like group IT policy and put this on there instead. Really, it's that good.

01:00:27   So they also have for iOS. Now I use it for iOS, although I will say I use it for Mac

01:00:31   more, but in iOS it's really great. First of all, on the iPad, there is no built-in

01:00:37   calculator from Apple. So you need to install something if you ever need a calculator. Might

01:00:42   as well install this. It's awesome for lots of different things. It's all, and you know,

01:00:45   It does formulas, you can use variables, you can use simple logic, you can use labels.

01:00:51   It's really an extremely high-functioning application for doing any kind of number scratchpad

01:00:58   work.

01:00:59   It's just so good.

01:01:01   Anything that you would otherwise use a simple spreadsheet for, like, oh, let me figure out

01:01:06   what my S3 costs are going to be this month for my bandwidth.

01:01:08   You just use Solver.

01:01:10   It's just so perfect for this.

01:01:12   So anyway, it's five bucks for iPad.

01:01:14   It's three bucks for iPhone.

01:01:15   I even use it-- I know this is going on long--

01:01:17   but I even use it as a scoreboard

01:01:21   when I'm playing games in real life.

01:01:23   Like if you're playing like 500 Rummy with people,

01:01:25   playing any kind of table game, you

01:01:27   need some way to keep score between rounds.

01:01:29   I type things into Solver.

01:01:30   Every person will have a line labeled with their initials

01:01:32   or their name, and then I'll just do score plus.

01:01:35   And every single time there's a round,

01:01:37   I'll add another one to their name.

01:01:38   You can always see, leave it out,

01:01:39   you can always see what everyone's total is

01:01:41   and what each round was before that.

01:01:43   There are just so many uses for this app.

01:01:45   Constantly go get silver, please for the love of all that is good go get silver. It is that good

01:01:51   You need you need this app. It's by Aquila and it's I'm not even gonna try to spell it. I'll put in the show notes

01:01:56   It's Aquila comm slash silver. So you LV ER or find it in the Mac App Store or the iOS App Store?

01:02:02   Thanks to solver for sponsoring

01:02:05   So not to pile on at all

01:02:07   But I solver solver whatever it's called is one of the few apps that I that triple dipped in other words

01:02:13   I had to pay on all three platforms, and I didn't feel bad about it because it really

01:02:17   is that good.

01:02:18   And the other thing that I wanted to point out is that you know how a lot of people,

01:02:23   ourselves included, have complained and moaned about how when you're building a calculator

01:02:27   app for a computer, you don't really—and actually, Marco, you wrote a post about this,

01:02:31   I think.

01:02:32   You don't want to be encumbered by what's physical.

01:02:37   And solver or solver, whatever, is a great midway between a spreadsheet and a calculator,

01:02:42   and they were able to do that because they chucked out all the cruft and old stuff from the physical world

01:02:47   and just made something that's really great in the computing world. Now that I think of it, I just totally stole a blog post, didn't I?

01:02:52   Yeah, that's entirely my blog post. But yeah, it's like, I believe I called it "overdoing the interface metaphor."

01:02:57   And the idea, this was like back before most skeuomorphism debates, but the idea was like, you know,

01:03:02   if you make a computer calculator, you don't want to bring over like a big grid of buttons that you have to click on.

01:03:07   and then a single line display. That's stupid.

01:03:11   Computers can do so much more than that if you just let them.

01:03:15   And so Solver is a calculator app that was clearly

01:03:19   designed for computers and not designed to try to mimic

01:03:23   what old calculators used to be. It was designed for what computers can actually do and do

01:03:27   well. And it's also a

01:03:31   NS document based app on the Mac and

01:03:35   I don't know if the iOS versions are document based,

01:03:38   I'm pretty sure they are.

01:03:39   And because what that means is on the Mac,

01:03:40   you get all of the line and mountain line,

01:03:42   you know, auto save and version support,

01:03:44   and it uses iCloud to sync everything,

01:03:47   and it actually works.

01:03:48   I tried it between my laptop and my computer, it's great.

01:03:52   Really, it's just a fantastic app.

01:03:53   And the guys even told me, they're like,

01:03:57   you can probably sell it better than we can.

01:03:59   And I think I've basically devoted every chance I get

01:04:02   over the last few years to talk about this app,

01:04:04   devoted to trying to convince the world, please, for the love of God, just use this app. Trust

01:04:09   me, it is that good. Even when the Mac App Store came out, I bought it, even though I

01:04:15   already owned it. I bought it at the Mac App Store just to A, give them more money, and

01:04:19   B, have a quick way to install it after any reinstall or any other computer that I owned.

01:04:24   It really is that good.

01:04:25   I can't believe it took you guys that long for the "skew" word to come up. I would have

01:04:28   led with that. Basically, the calculator is to skeuomorphism as this is to the opposite

01:04:34   of that. I'm also a big fan, although I pronounce it "solver" because I like that better.

01:04:40   The other thing I'll add is the reason I use this app all the time, and I actually use

01:04:46   the dashboard widget of another skeuomorphic calculator occasionally, but I also have solver

01:04:50   open all the time, although I just quit it before launching Skype because I wanted to

01:04:54   free up some memory to make sure Skype feels good, is that this thing also does the stuff

01:04:59   that you might find yourself typing into Google for, and I use it to do math in a lazy way.

01:05:04   Like I write 27 as a percentage of 359. Write that into Solver and it gives you the answer.

01:05:10   You could do that math yourself. We all know basic algebra. You can do division and multiplication

01:05:14   and figure it out. But did I do the division wrong, or did I put the wrong thing in the

01:05:18   the right place or whatever, you can do 5,300 bytes squared in kilobytes, and it will do

01:05:24   the conversions for you.

01:05:25   Oh yeah, there's unit conversions, there's stock price lookups.

01:05:30   The feature I like about it the best is that thing, where you can write in a single English

01:05:33   sentence that expresses what you want to know, and it will just give you the answer of it.

01:05:38   And I find it faster to go to Solver than to go to a Google search box and type these

01:05:41   things in.

01:05:42   Right, because it's a native app. It's all right there. It's all running already, and

01:05:44   it's just a text box. It's great.

01:05:47   I think it is the one app where I find autosave the most satisfying because before autosave,

01:05:52   I didn't like the fact that I had the little modified dot and I would quit and it would

01:05:55   ask me to save. I was like, "Just save everything all the time," and now it does.

01:06:00   Yeah, it's fantastic, really. It's hard to describe how good it is in just one ad

01:06:04   spot, which is why this is taking us so long. But believe me, you've got to try this app.

01:06:09   It's so good. The people who develop it seem like really nice guys. I've talked to

01:06:12   them a lot over email in the last five years or so. You just want to support this. They're

01:06:18   always putting out updates to fix any little problems that come up, although honestly I've

01:06:23   rarely ever seen a problem. It's just so good. It's like your text editor of choice.

01:06:29   It's one of those apps that you can look at whatever you spend on this and say, "This

01:06:33   has helped me make so much more money than whatever it costs. This is so worth the minimal

01:06:38   price I paid for it once years ago because it's that important to what I do.

01:06:44   All right, so let's just continue to talk about this fantastic app the rest of the show.

01:06:51   In terms of timely topics, the only one I've got left is WWDC, but I haven't had a proper

01:06:57   think about what predictions I want to be wrong about.

01:06:59   So is there anything that you two wanted to bring up?

01:07:03   Oh yeah, because that's coming up.

01:07:05   Yeah.

01:07:06   Next week should be our predictions show.

01:07:10   But I didn't want to do that today, but can if we have to. And I'll be even more wrong if we do it today.

01:07:14   Yeah, I don't know if I'm right. It's much better to do the prediction show right before

01:07:18   WOC because then we have the highest chance of being right.

01:07:22   You want to cheat and wait for all of the last bits of reverse to come.

01:07:26   Well honestly, do you think anything's going to change between this week and next week with predictions?

01:07:30   No, but our knowledge of it. Yeah, but there'll be something. All the obvious things that are in the invitation

01:07:34   like, "Oh, I bet they'll show the new version of iOS and Mac OS X." That's great. But we

01:07:40   want to know what else. Is there anything else? Or what are the features? Did we get

01:07:45   a leaked iOS 7 screenshot somewhere, some blurry image of--

01:07:48   Hazbell notebooks.

01:07:50   Yeah. Is that now, or is it going to be announced, or is it going to just have a little new badge

01:07:54   after we walk out of the thing like the Mac Pros did because it's not important enough?

01:08:01   But those details will be clearer by next week, I think.

01:08:04   I bet Haswell MacBook Pro updates would at least warrant an eight-slide Phil Schiller

01:08:11   mention.

01:08:12   Yeah.

01:08:13   No.

01:08:14   I mean, they spent a lot of time on the new Retinas last year, and granted that was like,

01:08:17   "Oh, it's the first Retina."

01:08:19   But certainly it's worth something, some slides showing how much faster and lower power

01:08:24   they are and all that good stuff.

01:08:25   Right.

01:08:26   Here's an update to our notebook line.

01:08:27   And Lord knows they're not going to be showing us new Mac Pros.

01:08:29   No.

01:08:30   So I'm a hardware that can be in a clear acrylic tube

01:08:33   outside my-- what kind of the room, you know?

01:08:36   They should just put an old Mac Pro in there

01:08:38   and see how many people gather around it.

01:08:40   You know what they should do?

01:08:40   They should take an old Mac Pro and slap

01:08:42   a new sticker on the side.

01:08:44   I hear that works.

01:08:46   I think what we're going to-- I guess this is becoming

01:08:49   predictions anyway.

01:08:50   I think what we're going to see is mostly the focus is going

01:08:54   to be on iOS 7.

01:08:55   But I'm actually really curious to see what

01:08:58   we learn about Mac OS 10.9.

01:09:01   Yeah, because if they keep with their pattern of cat modifier

01:09:04   cat, then this comes up as cat again, right?

01:09:07   [LAUGHTER]

01:09:10   Like, four releases is a cycle, cat modifier cat.

01:09:14   And so either they're done with cats,

01:09:16   or we've got to have a new cat.

01:09:19   I have been since like last year, or for a long time.

01:09:23   Like, I have to give a name for the thing

01:09:25   I put in my notes file.

01:09:27   I've, and mine is called links, L-Y-N-X.

01:09:31   Not that I think that's what the cat name is gonna be,

01:09:32   but when I asked my brain, well brain,

01:09:34   you have to type in something else

01:09:36   to be your placeholder for 10.9,

01:09:37   and I don't wanna write 10.9, I wrote in links.

01:09:40   'Cause I can't, can you even think of another,

01:09:42   it was like Ocelot and all sorts of BS things.

01:09:44   Either cat names are done, which I'm perfectly fine with,

01:09:46   good, can the cat names, I'm all for it.

01:09:48   Or my brain says links, so.

01:09:51   But I have no idea what they're gonna call it,

01:09:52   I've heard nothing.

01:09:54   what's the modifier gonna be them

01:09:56   if i don't know mountain links

01:09:58   has made up of graphical links

01:10:01   snow links that i can i don't think that this is a this is you know another

01:10:05   reason links won't be the name right but

01:10:07   it

01:10:08   i'm happy to be done with cats

01:10:10   well do you think there's maybe a ten point ten to maybe they won't be a

01:10:13   modifier cap for this next minute maybe they will change the naming convention

01:10:16   and i have ten point ten

01:10:18   i think they'll do well

01:10:21   It feels like, like what are they gonna,

01:10:23   to go to something where you're like,

01:10:25   oh, this is not 10, it's like this one goes to 11.

01:10:27   Like if you wanna do some sort of thing like that,

01:10:29   you can't just do that as a marketing push.

01:10:32   There has to be something to go along with that,

01:10:33   and I don't see any kind of change that's that radical

01:10:36   in the 10.10 timeframe.

01:10:39   Like 10.10 should be the modifier cat release

01:10:42   of whatever the hell they have cooked up for this thing,

01:10:44   but who knows, I mean, four releases is definitely a pattern

01:10:48   but they break the pattern

01:10:49   where the hell they feel like it.

01:10:50   So for obvious reasons, I'm very interested in what's going on there, and I'm less interested

01:10:54   in what's going on in iOS.

01:10:56   And I'm sure iOS will be by far the more dominant focus in the news, and I'm not expecting anything

01:11:01   you're shattering out of 10.9.

01:11:03   But the question is, what the hell is it?

01:11:06   I'm really curious to see what—besides the name, of course, which is very interesting—what

01:11:12   will 10.9 be for the marketing, first of all?

01:11:17   What will they market about the features of it?

01:11:18   then will there be anything interesting for developers? Will there be substantial improvements

01:11:23   to the core in any significant way? What is there to do? And it's only been a year since

01:11:29   Mountain Lion, now that they're on their shorter cycle, so it's not going to be a massive rewrite

01:11:35   of anything. Well, there's plenty to do, but the most interesting

01:11:38   question is, given how much attention Apple wants to focus on OS X, they can't do everything.

01:11:46   things do they prioritize? Because that will give you an idea of what they feel is important.

01:11:51   Do they just do things that they would have had to do anyway because they're changes to the core

01:11:54   OS to benefit most OSes? With line to mountain line, they almost entirely focused on things that

01:12:03   bring together the mental space of the Mac and iOS in terms of making the application look a

01:12:09   certain way, having them have iCloud integration, trying to make it so, "Hey, you've used your

01:12:14   iPhone or your iPad, this Mac is not all that different.

01:12:18   Take a look.

01:12:19   Look at the contacts app.

01:12:20   See how it's kind of the same, like stuff like that.

01:12:22   And the auto save, hey, you don't have to save things on iOS, you know, to varying degrees

01:12:25   of success.

01:12:26   But that was where they were putting their energy.

01:12:27   And they weren't, for example, putting it into a new file system or, you know, making

01:12:32   the OS faster, improving the virtual memory system, changing out the kernel to have better

01:12:37   like all sorts of nitty gritty things that would be totally interesting to someone like

01:12:40   me.

01:12:41   But Apple saying, well, that's we're not getting any bang for the buck out of that.

01:12:44   Like, don't spend all your time working on that.

01:12:46   Instead, spend your time in this other area.

01:12:48   So they did that with Lion, and they sort of repented a little bit with Mountain Lion

01:12:53   to say where they had overreached and sort of shore things up and put a third panel into

01:12:57   the stupid book metaphor app.

01:12:59   Like, well, a book can have three parts, right?

01:13:01   But then one of them has to be half of it, and the other one has to be 25 and 25 percent?

01:13:07   Anyway, do they keep doing that, or do they concentrate in a new area this time?

01:13:12   like Fusion Drive would have been an obvious thing, but they already released that.

01:13:17   Fusion Drive missed Mountain Lion. I feel like they wanted to get it into that.

01:13:20   But they're like, "Alright, well fine, screw it. Fusion Drive, it's not tied to another release.

01:13:24   It just appears suddenly with some new iMacs and stuff."

01:13:26   Well, that was also a good way to sell hardware.

01:13:29   Like the way Siri was tied to the 4S, that was a good way to say,

01:13:34   even though you can create it now on the command line, nobody really knows that.

01:13:39   there's no interface and disk utility, and no one's doing it, really, except super nerds.

01:13:44   For the most part, it's like, if you want the combination of very high speed and very

01:13:48   high capacity, you must buy a new iMac or Mac Mini.

01:13:51   Well, I give them a pass on that because, unlike the Siri thing, anything having to

01:13:58   do with low-level disk drive crap is really sensitive to the specific mechanism and drivers

01:14:05   and everything involved there, to the point where I really believe that, basically, it's

01:14:09   It's not that it won't work, it's just that they didn't QA it in any configuration.

01:14:12   They only had time, and they only QA'd it in these specific configurations.

01:14:17   It probably will work perfectly fine in tons of other configurations, but whatever your

01:14:20   SSD either does or doesn't support the TRIM command, or has some other feature, or ends

01:14:25   up running into some pathological case that they never tested for or whatever.

01:14:29   So I don't blame them for being super conservative with the supported hardware there.

01:14:33   But they didn't hold it for the next OS release, because they had this hardware they wanted

01:14:37   to ship.

01:14:38   It didn't make the OS that they wanted it to make.

01:14:40   In that WWDC session, they hinted that there was this thing that they would like to talk

01:14:44   about but can't, and that was Fusion Drive.

01:14:47   It just missed the release.

01:14:48   It didn't get on the boat for that one, so they put it out mid-release.

01:14:52   But Fusion Drive would be an awesome 10.9 feature.

01:14:54   If they had announced that WWDC, we'd be like, "Wow, this is great.

01:14:57   10.9's got some really cool features.

01:14:58   You see that Fusion Drive?"

01:15:00   But now that's kind of spoiled by it already being out there.

01:15:03   I'm sure they'll have sessions on it, and the support for it will be expanded and blah,

01:15:07   blah blah blah, but that kind of takes some of the wind out of its sail, and my eternal

01:15:12   new file system thing, like, probably not this year either, who knows.

01:15:15   Well, and actually, that just got me thinking.

01:15:18   There are still a fair amount of Macs that have platter drives, right?

01:15:23   Because we just mentioned the Fusion drive, which is half platter, well, maybe more than

01:15:27   half platter and also an SSD, but most of the lower end Macs, or MacBooks and MacBook

01:15:33   pros, the non-retina ones anyway, they all still have platter drives by default, right?

01:15:40   So the reason I bring this up is I wonder if, and I'm looking mostly to John for your

01:15:45   two cents on this, I wonder if the Mac line switches, well, if it can, and let's assume

01:15:51   it can, and if it switches to all flash hard drives, would that lead to easier choices

01:15:57   in either creating or picking a new file system?

01:16:01   Whereas right now they've kind of got a leg in two very different worlds where you have

01:16:05   to support both the comparatively old and slow platters as well as this brand new, well

01:16:12   reasonably new I should say, flash system.

01:16:16   So if everything was flash and that's all we needed to worry about, would that be easier?

01:16:22   And a corollary to that would be would iOS jump to a different file system before the

01:16:29   OS X does because everything on iOS is Flash.

01:16:34   It's not going to jump to all Flash, though.

01:16:36   They're stuck with spinning drives for the foreseeable future.

01:16:39   I was saying in a past episode of some podcast about what the next—assuming there are some

01:16:44   Mac Pros or Mac Pro-like machines or something, whatever, you know what I'm talking about,

01:16:49   I thought that those will be Fusion Drive and you won't have a choice.

01:16:53   Like you won't be able to get it not as a Fusion Drive.

01:16:55   You won't be able to get it as pure SSD because the storage is too small, and you won't

01:16:58   be able to get it without an SSD.

01:17:00   You're getting fusion drive, period.

01:17:02   Because that is their medium-term solution for make it faster, but also let people store

01:17:08   their gigantic libraries of stuff.

01:17:10   That's why they made it.

01:17:12   Having the flash versus spinning disk, what that split is going to force them to do if

01:17:19   they ever get off their butts is use some form of native storage on the flash.

01:17:23   There are lots of other systems out there that do this type of thing.

01:17:27   File systems are designed for spinning things with particular behaviors of access time and

01:17:31   sequential access is faster than random and seeks really kill you.

01:17:34   The whole file system is laid out in such a way to minimize those things, or hopefully

01:17:37   laid out in a way to minimize.

01:17:39   All those things are either the opposite or just completely moot on SSDs because their

01:17:44   performance characteristics are so different.

01:17:46   Random access versus sequential access becomes less meaningful when you've just got a bunch

01:17:49   of chips that you're addressing, but they have their own particular quirks or whatever.

01:17:54   A file system layer on top of that is almost like, I mean, there are lots of file systems

01:17:59   tailored to Flash or whatever, but Apple's the kind of company who could use just raw

01:18:03   access to the NAND, particularly on iOS devices.

01:18:07   Why not?

01:18:08   Everything is already there.

01:18:09   You still have to provide the same interface to the application, so maybe that's a complication

01:18:13   for them.

01:18:14   But if they want to extract the maximum performance with the lowest overhead from Flash, you don't

01:18:19   need to go with the file system.

01:18:20   Not only just the file system that was designed for spinning disks, but you don't need what

01:18:23   we think of formally as a file system now, you just need to continue to provide the same

01:18:26   interface, the same driver interface to the higher levels of the OS so it looks like HFS,

01:18:31   because it always has to look like HFS Plus, because all the APIs expect it to look like

01:18:34   that, but under the covers it doesn't have to be.

01:18:39   I think that they probably won't even do that, but the reasons I think they need a new file

01:18:45   system have little to do with spinning disk versus flash, it just has to do with the fact

01:18:48   that HFS is really old and crappy in all the ways that I've listed in my various articles

01:18:52   complaining about this. And if they come up with a new one, I don't think it will matter

01:18:57   that it's not 100% tailored to SSDs. It'll be fine. And they'll put it on the spinning

01:19:03   disks and they'll probably also put it on the SSDs and they'll use core storage to make

01:19:07   fusion drive out of them and hopefully we'll all be happy.

01:19:11   All right. We'll find that.

01:19:15   We'll find that, yeah. The world you're thinking of is like, "Oh, wouldn't it be great? We

01:19:20   we don't have to worry about spinning disk anymore, we just use Flash, but it's just

01:19:23   not here.

01:19:24   I mean, only Marco can get the big—and even that one can't hold his—well, it probably

01:19:29   was your iPhone library, like 260 gigs or something.

01:19:31   Yeah, it actually does hold almost everything I have.

01:19:34   Yeah, but that's—I mean, it's not—that's not an average person's thing, where I easily

01:19:39   have—I fill a terabyte drive easily.

01:19:42   My next computer cannot have a terabyte drive as its main drive, because that won't be

01:19:45   big enough, right?

01:19:46   because I'm not using that much stuff. People still can't afford terabyte SSDs, and they

01:19:55   won't be able to next year either, or probably the next year after that either. So for a long time,

01:20:00   we're going to—and spinning drives keep getting bigger too. And Fusion Drive, by all accounts,

01:20:04   is amazing in terms of how it makes it feel like it really is just an SSD, but you still get all

01:20:09   that storage. Because people's usage patterns really are, you do just hit a small set of files

01:20:14   over and over again.

01:20:15   Well, that's why I wonder if, you know, like with Fusion Drive, I believe the ones that

01:20:19   ship in MX, they're only 128 gigs, right? On the SSD portion?

01:20:24   Yeah, like, it's cheap out there.

01:20:27   And the point is, it uses like a 4 gig write buffer, and then the rest of it is, you know,

01:20:31   roughly 120 gigs worth of, you know, frequently accessed files or frequently accessed block

01:20:36   storage. And, you know, if you think about it, like, there's really not that much reason

01:20:42   and why they couldn't also build that into a lot of laptops except cost.

01:20:46   And the problem is, the Retinas are already

01:20:50   high-priced items and are already all flash. So the Retinas, they won't fit in.

01:20:54   Spinning is not coming back to laptops. Well, but they could get a little bit

01:20:58   more life and a nice performance boost if they would build in a little

01:21:02   tiny 128GB module into the non-Retina laptops

01:21:06   that still exist. The Air wouldn't need them, so actually I guess

01:21:10   I'm talking myself out of this.

01:21:12   'Cause the Air's already all flashed,

01:21:14   the Retina's already all flashed.

01:21:15   - Spinning is not coming back to laptops.

01:21:16   - And the other ones are all too cheap,

01:21:17   they can't afford the margin.

01:21:18   All right, nevermind.

01:21:19   (laughs)

01:21:20   - Yeah, I mean, it's just basically,

01:21:22   it's just the, I mean,

01:21:23   there are whole desktop lines,

01:21:24   when I'm like, you got the iMac,

01:21:26   that's like, why would you even buy a big hunk of thing

01:21:28   on disk if it doesn't come with like a terabyte of storage?

01:21:30   'Cause like, what's the point?

01:21:32   Why not just get an Air and hook it up

01:21:33   to a thunder cold display or whatever?

01:21:34   And there's the Mini, which still has spinning,

01:21:36   but also has the option to SSD,

01:21:38   And those spinnings will probably go away too.

01:21:40   It's really just the Mac Pro because it's got the big bays and you can put the big drives

01:21:45   in there.

01:21:46   And for people who have huge amounts of data, SSDs are still way too expensive for that.

01:21:52   And the spinnings just keep getting bigger and cheaper.

01:21:54   And it's like, boy, you're leaving money on the table if you don't have a solution to

01:21:58   let people take advantage of that cheap storage.

01:22:00   And they do.

01:22:01   Apple has a solution.

01:22:02   It's there waiting for them, so they're going to use it.

01:22:03   It's medium term.

01:22:04   It's not going to go away today.

01:22:05   It's not going to go away tomorrow.

01:22:07   It will go away once SSDs get big enough and cheap enough to serve as the one and only

01:22:16   complete main drive for a normal person.

01:22:19   As long as the size of the pictures we're taking with our cameras don't scale with the

01:22:23   same rate that SSD storage scales.

01:22:26   Right.

01:22:27   Oops.

01:22:28   All right.

01:22:29   With that, let's wrap it up.

01:22:30   Sounds good.

01:22:31   All right.

01:22:32   Thanks a lot to our two sponsors.

01:22:33   Solver by Aqualia Software, go to solver, go to Aqualia.com/solver, we'll link to that

01:22:38   in the show notes.

01:22:40   And Oxygen for, Oxygen, Oxygen for cocoa from RamObject Software, it's spelled Oxygen though

01:22:46   with an E on the end, you'll see.

01:22:48   Go to RamObject Software, go to RamObject.com/Oxygen with an E on the end and use coupon code ATP13

01:22:56   for 20% off.

01:22:58   Thanks a lot guys.

01:23:02   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:23:07   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:23:09   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:23:13   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:23:17   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:23:20   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:23:23   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:23:28   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:23:32   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:23:37   So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:23:41   Auntie Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C

01:23:46   U-S-I-C, R-A-C-U-S-A

01:23:49   It's accidental, accidental

01:23:52   They didn't mean to

01:23:55   Accidental, accidental

01:23:57   Tech.Cat.SoLong

01:24:02   Set on the show, it's a good title.

01:24:05   Cat, comma, modifier, cat.

01:24:07   I agree. And also I should add that when you said graphical links, I was being myself.

01:24:14   I think you're the only person who got that.

01:24:16   Oh my god.

01:24:18   Do you guys have links installed still?

01:24:20   Does it come? I don't know.

01:24:22   No, it doesn't. Because I always build it and install it.

01:24:24   And I'm pissed when it doesn't come.

01:24:26   And like, you build it yourself and it doesn't come with SSL support.

01:24:30   That annoys me.

01:24:31   Oh, and those are the other things.

01:24:32   Wget now is cranky about SSL certificates and you have to pass the no certificate check

01:24:35   option.

01:24:36   Oh, yeah.

01:24:37   Well, that doesn't come built anymore either.

01:24:38   I know.

01:24:39   It's one of the things.

01:24:40   It's like Solver.

01:24:41   When you get a new Mac, I install Quicksilver, Solver, all the apps that need bbedit, and

01:24:44   I also go and install Wget and links.

01:24:46   Because I'm old.

01:24:49   No, but seriously, who likes cURL?

01:24:54   You have to pass the capital O option to do the one thing that's the common case.

01:24:58   Like what good...

01:24:59   The curl's default is just spew it into standard app.

01:25:02   That's talking about an app with terrible defaults.

01:25:03   That's why I installed wget.

01:25:04   I should just alias wget to curl minus capital O, but ugh.

01:25:09   Yeah, we have a show about text editors where everyone is stuck with-- like Marco's stuck

01:25:15   with TextMate because it's just what he got used to, right?

01:25:18   And you can never leave it, so it'll be like 70 years old still using TextMate 2, and everyone

01:25:22   else is using their--

01:25:24   It'll still be in alpha?

01:25:25   Neural, yeah, the neural interfaces or whatever.

01:25:27   Well, it's the same thing with Unix shells, where I know so many people, myself included,

01:25:31   where whatever Unix shell they learned when they first learned Unix, they'd never leave

01:25:35   it and they'd just carry it around with them forever.

01:25:37   I live in fear of the day that Mac OS X is not going to come with TCSH, which is my login

01:25:41   shell, because that's what the login shell was at BU in 1993.

01:25:44   Well, it's one of those things, once you learn one, there's not really enough benefit to

01:25:48   learn any other ones to make it worth the learning curve.

01:25:52   The one you use keeps working.

01:25:53   Yeah, you just carry your dot files around forever.

01:25:55   They all have very similar abilities, so it's not like there's a massive reason to switch.

01:26:00   Well unless you use Bash, which sucks.

01:26:03   I think of changing to ZSH or one of the super fancy modern, like the equivalent of hipster

01:26:09   shells, not really, because hipsters didn't exist when ZSH was made.

01:26:13   They do have lots of really amazing features, but then I just think about the amount of

01:26:16   time I would have to spend to recreate my preferred key bindings and environment and

01:26:21   all that stuff, and I say, "You know what?

01:26:23   keep going with TCSH. But like for the past seven, eight years, maybe ten years at work,

01:26:31   I'm always the only guy who doesn't use Bash. Because all the people who grew up in the

01:26:34   Linux generation, Bash was the default, and they all just used Bash. And so people don't

01:26:40   — they see my shell prompt and it's not a Bash shell prompt and they just say, "Just

01:26:45   type export whatever equals," and I type something different, like, "That's not going to work.

01:26:48   What are you doing? What is this? What are you typing into it?" Yeah.

01:26:51   That must be hard for you.

01:26:55   It is, because my entire office, for test plans or for putting instructions up or whatever,

01:27:01   I have to translate everything into Bash-ese, because I can't.

01:27:05   Because for the people who don't really know Unix, I can't just tell them what to do.

01:27:08   I have to type out the exact commands, and then I have to start a little Bash cell in

01:27:12   one of my windows so I can just make sure I'm not making typos and stuff like that.

01:27:15   So it's like I'm speaking a foreign language in the midst of all these other people.

01:27:20   You could just convert to Bash.

01:27:21   Why would I ever do that? It's terrible.

01:27:23   The only reason to use Bash is if you were doing shell programming, because no one should ever do any shell programming in CSH or TCSH.

01:27:31   But why would I ever do shell programming? We already went over that at the beginning of the show.

01:27:34   Is it bad? I probably shouldn't say this when we're still live,

01:27:38   but is it bad that I'm almost enjoying this part of the show more than the actual show?

01:27:43   Oh, this is all going in.

01:27:44   Oh my god. I hope so.

01:27:45   Oh, this is fantastic.

01:27:47   I think this would have been a good topic for an actual show instead of just me yelling about things.

01:27:51   No, no, it's much better you're just yelling about things.

01:27:54   That's the best part.