The Accidental Tech Podcast

196: Roasting Your Own Beans


00:00:00   anything we talked you don't talk [TS]

00:00:01   politics for a while oh my god John [TS]

00:00:05   siracusa tell me about your 4k display [TS]

00:00:07   or displays if you please [TS]

00:00:09   yeah this is not really related to the [TS]

00:00:12   mac pro and apples getting out of this [TS]

00:00:14   play business and all that business but [TS]

00:00:17   it's strangely connected so I've got the [TS]

00:00:19   got a ps4 pro now and one of the [TS]

00:00:22   features of the ps4 pro is that it [TS]

00:00:24   theoretically supports 4k four games [TS]

00:00:27   four games that are updated to support [TS]

00:00:28   in that actually do support it and I [TS]

00:00:32   figure since i am keeping my all ps4 and [TS]

00:00:35   they have a game are with it as well I [TS]

00:00:37   needed a new monitor for the new one [TS]

00:00:39   because neither one of these is gonna be [TS]

00:00:41   hooked up to my TV for display burn-in [TS]

00:00:43   reasons so when I was going to get new [TS]

00:00:46   monitor think I get a 4k one because hey [TS]

00:00:48   this the playstation 4 pro is supposed [TS]

00:00:50   to be all you know for Campbell so [TS]

00:00:51   that's what i should do it so I shopped [TS]

00:00:53   around for 4k monitor that support HDR [TS]

00:00:55   which is another feature of the ps4 pro [TS]

00:00:58   actually maybe they packed back part of [TS]

00:00:59   that to the beautiful psy remember [TS]

00:01:01   anyway apparently it's impossible to [TS]

00:01:03   find an HDR capable 4k computer monitor [TS]

00:01:07   you can find TVs obviously but I wasn't [TS]

00:01:09   looking for TV and and/or and also the [TS]

00:01:12   size inflation of tvs that happened [TS]

00:01:15   maybe three years ago four years ago [TS]

00:01:17   where any decent TV is now I get at [TS]

00:01:20   least 55 inches you I'm fearing the day [TS]

00:01:23   that someday you won't be able to get [TS]

00:01:24   one less than 65 inches like the minimum [TS]

00:01:26   size for a decent TV is gonna have to [TS]

00:01:28   move you get you can buy yourself [TS]

00:01:30   can I get a 27 inch 4k TV with HDR the [TS]

00:01:34   answer is no no you can't you want a [TS]

00:01:36   55-inch got one of those for you anyway [TS]

00:01:39   no HDR but he didn't get 4k so I shopped [TS]

00:01:42   around a little bit i hate doing this [TS]

00:01:44   cuz I don't like a million different [TS]

00:01:46   products and then the in the non-apple [TS]

00:01:48   world so much selection is overwhelming [TS]

00:01:50   ended up getting a viewsonic great [TS]

00:01:55   programs XG 2704 k display which is [TS]

00:02:01   really nice especially like the the [TS]

00:02:03   stand it came with his like [TS]

00:02:05   height-adjustable was very sturdy get [TS]

00:02:07   the water itself is a little chunky and [TS]

00:02:08   a little bit gamer looking like [TS]

00:02:10   jessica is black with like a red stripe [TS]

00:02:12   and he's silly my wasn't word this is [TS]

00:02:14   not only expensive but your whining [TS]

00:02:18   about the LG display and the way that [TS]

00:02:21   looks and this has freakin red trim on [TS]

00:02:23   it are you serious John Syracuse's the [TS]

00:02:26   racing stripes that make it go faster [TS]

00:02:27   man this is not my mac obviously with [TS]

00:02:29   playstation 4 have you seen with the [TS]

00:02:31   playstation 4 itself looks like this is [TS]

00:02:33   hitting don't care this is truly [TS]

00:02:35   terrible call it the LG ultra fine is it [TS]

00:02:38   is not a pretty monitor I'm not trying [TS]

00:02:40   to say it's pretty but it's positively [TS]

00:02:42   understated compared to this atrocity [TS]

00:02:44   and does not that I mean if you look at [TS]

00:02:46   it it's basically just completely black [TS]

00:02:48   around the display and all you can see [TS]

00:02:49   when you're sitting in front of it is [TS]

00:02:50   the two little red side things [TS]

00:02:52   understand and you can't even see the [TS]

00:02:55   red stripe on the vertical thing because [TS]

00:02:57   it gets covered up i have a monitor [TS]

00:02:59   anyway that's what I got all and it was [TS]

00:03:01   alright all of these pc gaming monitors [TS]

00:03:04   have been like on screen you know [TS]

00:03:07   adjustments on the device itself that [TS]

00:03:10   had nothing to do with things connected [TS]

00:03:11   to it so on the device itself you can [TS]

00:03:12   adjust like brightness and contrast but [TS]

00:03:14   also a million other settings some of [TS]

00:03:17   which are strange through every way you [TS]

00:03:19   can imagine to be like the worst [TS]

00:03:21   on-screen controls you know you know [TS]

00:03:22   what they put the grainy sort of [TS]

00:03:24   bitmapped little menu thing and only [TS]

00:03:26   have like a the viewsonic has like a [TS]

00:03:28   one-in-two button like the one brings up [TS]

00:03:29   the menu the two goes into it and [TS]

00:03:31   there's up and down arrows so bad it's [TS]

00:03:34   terrible interfaces it's kinda like [TS]

00:03:36   going back in time to like when [TS]

00:03:37   televisions first got on screen displays [TS]

00:03:40   OSD they call them on-screen display [TS]

00:03:42   which doesn't really mean that stands [TS]

00:03:45   for on screens but anyway I believe [TS]

00:03:46   that's right it doesn't make it on where [TS]

00:03:48   else with the display be on screen [TS]

00:03:50   display and this is very i'm still [TS]

00:03:53   looking this monitor i mean like i [TS]

00:03:54   should point out like I like many [TS]

00:03:58   tastefully designed pc monitors I like [TS]

00:04:01   viewsonic and you so i have owned [TS]

00:04:03   multiple viewsonic monitors they are [TS]

00:04:05   really good usually I like red even read [TS]

00:04:09   is one of my favorite colors for things [TS]

00:04:11   to be in even though Trump ruined [TS]

00:04:12   red-hats forever but I look at this [TS]

00:04:14   monitor and i cannot even imagine buying [TS]

00:04:17   this thing and having this on my desk I [TS]

00:04:18   could not agree more you should look at [TS]

00:04:20   just look at the monitor part of it like [TS]

00:04:21   that the stand but just the [TS]

00:04:23   monitor from the front it is literally a [TS]

00:04:24   matte black rectangle with the word you [TS]

00:04:26   sonic on the bottom like that's pretty [TS]

00:04:28   much as plain as you can get [TS]

00:04:30   well if but you you will know that I and [TS]

00:04:32   if you're not seeing the red stripe on [TS]

00:04:33   the back your monitor is probably too [TS]

00:04:35   low [TS]

00:04:36   well i mean i guess you can see a little [TS]

00:04:37   tiny bit of it but you don't notice it [TS]

00:04:39   and then like the stand among stands you [TS]

00:04:42   don't know how how deep this thing goes [TS]

00:04:44   go look at some of the stands of other [TS]

00:04:45   pc and gaming monitor just do do me a [TS]

00:04:48   favor do me a favor get get up get her [TS]

00:04:49   face arm and have that hold this up and [TS]

00:04:51   today I know I'm getting to that [TS]

00:04:53   I'm getting to the beasts are ok I'll [TS]

00:04:55   get that is it visa right visa at all [TS]

00:04:58   these lives [TS]

00:04:58   I'm gonna save ISA and it's definitely a [TS]

00:05:00   move file and you mispronounced [TS]

00:05:01   everything so I don't understand how you [TS]

00:05:04   besmirch the the 5k monitor as an [TS]

00:05:08   atrocity that you would never be able to [TS]

00:05:10   use ever and then you buy this piece of [TS]

00:05:13   garbage [TS]

00:05:14   how do you think do you think I would [TS]

00:05:15   never take this to my Mac what [TS]

00:05:18   difference does it make oh it makes a [TS]

00:05:19   difference i would never connect this [TS]

00:05:21   time academia to be on the same desk is [TS]

00:05:23   my mac i love you have lower standards [TS]

00:05:24   for the other like the pc but maybe we [TS]

00:05:27   won't show you before and not only [TS]

00:05:29   before i do i don't i don't disagree but [TS]

00:05:31   you really have no choice like you have [TS]

00:05:33   to happen [TS]

00:05:34   I understand me but you have no choice [TS]

00:05:36   if there is no like nice tasteful pc [TS]

00:05:39   hardware for the most part even even [TS]

00:05:42   things like the HP spectre are really [TS]

00:05:44   you know I see they're putting in an [TS]

00:05:46   effort but it's not [TS]

00:05:47   not to my taste anyway let me continue [TS]

00:05:49   my story here so i got this thing and [TS]

00:05:52   the adjustments on over are very strange [TS]

00:05:54   i'm trying to get it sort of calibrated [TS]

00:05:56   to something reasonable but they have [TS]

00:05:57   all sorts of settings most of which fly [TS]

00:06:01   in the face of my television snob [TS]

00:06:04   sensibilities because the television you [TS]

00:06:06   want to adjust like you trying that [TS]

00:06:08   there is a goal there is like you can [TS]

00:06:10   get reference images and say it should [TS]

00:06:11   look like this you know because it [TS]

00:06:12   television content is produced with the [TS]

00:06:16   expectation that here is the color range [TS]

00:06:17   of your display here is the the the [TS]

00:06:20   brightness Behavior all sorts of other [TS]

00:06:21   things like that whereas for a gaming [TS]

00:06:24   monitor specifically games are not [TS]

00:06:27   produced with any sort of reference [TS]

00:06:29   viewing environment right because there [TS]

00:06:33   is no real standard for that [TS]

00:06:35   things are produced I don't know how [TS]

00:06:36   they decide like how dr. the textures be [TS]

00:06:39   and you know what color range we use I'd [TS]

00:06:42   I really don't know what they use but i [TS]

00:06:43   can tell you that everybody's pc [TS]

00:06:46   monitors are not calibrated like [TS]

00:06:48   quote-unquote correctly and are all over [TS]

00:06:49   the map and there is a setting that [TS]

00:06:51   seems to be pervasive on all pc monitor [TS]

00:06:53   especially with the game bet they call [TS]

00:06:54   black stabilization have you ever even [TS]

00:06:57   heard of that know what why why is black [TS]

00:07:00   changing yeah so in games a lot of games [TS]

00:07:05   are made where they will be dark [TS]

00:07:06   sections were you like in a cave or [TS]

00:07:08   something but if you're playing a game [TS]

00:07:10   especially a competitive game you don't [TS]

00:07:11   actually want to quote unquote [TS]

00:07:14   faithfully reproduced the blacks because [TS]

00:07:15   you won't be able to see anything is it [TS]

00:07:18   is an advantage for you instead to have [TS]

00:07:20   the monitor so that kind of i'm assuming [TS]

00:07:21   assuming it's like squashing everything [TS]

00:07:23   down psycho i can see the subtle [TS]

00:07:25   difference between a hundred percent [TS]

00:07:26   black and ninety-nine percent black [TS]

00:07:28   ninety-eight percent black and this cave [TS]

00:07:30   is important for me to see that so i can [TS]

00:07:32   pick out the edges of the cave walls [TS]

00:07:34   find where the enemies are whatever like [TS]

00:07:36   it [TS]

00:07:37   have you ever seen anyone do that [TS]

00:07:38   competitive first-person shooters in pc [TS]

00:07:40   gaming they're not trying to get visual [TS]

00:07:42   fidelity as if it's a movie or [TS]

00:07:45   television show what they're trying to [TS]

00:07:46   do is can I see everything clearly [TS]

00:07:49   so a lot of the monitors have settings [TS]

00:07:50   that make the picture worse like by [TS]

00:07:53   reducing the the dynamic range and [TS]

00:07:57   making areas that would be black less [TS]

00:07:59   black which looks looks bad it's like a [TS]

00:08:01   bad black level in your TV and also all [TS]

00:08:04   the settings that are involved like [TS]

00:08:05   response time because that's the big [TS]

00:08:06   thing you a lot of gamers use TN panels [TS]

00:08:08   which nobody uses anymore because they [TS]

00:08:10   look terrible the viewing angles are [TS]

00:08:11   terrible but they have better response [TS]

00:08:14   time I've never gone that far i couldn't [TS]

00:08:16   get a tee and display because that's [TS]

00:08:17   like that means like going back to the [TS]

00:08:19   macbook air like no I mean you aren't an [TS]

00:08:21   animal right [TS]

00:08:22   so again I got an IPS display which does [TS]

00:08:24   it has a 25 times response time but even [TS]

00:08:26   on these displays a way you can change [TS]

00:08:28   the response time to be as good as it [TS]

00:08:31   can be doing what I assume is [TS]

00:08:33   sacrificing sacrificing visual quality [TS]

00:08:35   I'm trying to strike the right balance [TS]

00:08:36   between don't look terrible monitor but [TS]

00:08:40   also i do feel there's a benefit to not [TS]

00:08:42   having everything be black when i'm [TS]

00:08:44   doing the raid and one of the raids in [TS]

00:08:45   destiny [TS]

00:08:46   a lot of dark areas and I'm doing some [TS]

00:08:48   jumping puzzle in the dark [TS]

00:08:50   try to do something i like you know I do [TS]

00:08:52   have it adjusted quote-unquote wrong so [TS]

00:08:54   i can so the games play better [TS]

00:08:57   um so anyway I had a lot of trouble [TS]

00:08:59   trying to get the viewsonic set up that [TS]

00:09:00   way but the real problem was that for a [TS]

00:09:02   while my playstation 4 pro did not show [TS]

00:09:05   me a 4k output option that would just [TS]

00:09:07   output 1080p I'm like well that's not [TS]

00:09:08   what i want to i need you to output for [TS]

00:09:10   k so i did a bunch of googling the [TS]

00:09:13   PlayStation says you know count-out [TS]

00:09:15   porque and it would say hdcp 2.2 not [TS]

00:09:18   available [TS]

00:09:19   I don't know if you guys are familiar [TS]

00:09:20   with hdcp but it's another one of those [TS]

00:09:22   stupid things that make you mine Morris [TS]

00:09:23   for no good reason [TS]

00:09:24   m and this monitor probably predates [TS]

00:09:26   hdcp 2.2 only sports like I figure with [TS]

00:09:29   the earlier standard is maybe 1.1 thru [TS]

00:09:31   1.4 I don't know [TS]

00:09:33   anyway I had had a quote-unquote hdmi [TS]

00:09:35   2.0 cable and everything it was good but [TS]

00:09:38   it didn't work with it and did some [TS]

00:09:39   googling you find people asking [TS]

00:09:40   viewsonic on Twitter hey does this [TS]

00:09:41   monitor support hdcp 2.2 they sorry no [TS]

00:09:44   oh my god only have to return this thing [TS]

00:09:46   get over monitor now it turns out you [TS]

00:09:51   can get it two games to display 4k on [TS]

00:09:53   this it has a bunch of hdmi ports on the [TS]

00:09:55   back and like so many televisions and [TS]

00:09:57   monitors before only one of the ports is [TS]

00:09:59   like the good one [TS]

00:10:00   so once i move the cable to the good [TS]

00:10:02   part the one and only good part which [TS]

00:10:04   isn't labeled with anything that says [TS]

00:10:05   hey this is the only one that does hdmi [TS]

00:10:08   2.0 hey this is the only one that this [TS]

00:10:10   4k but turns out there's only one that [TS]

00:10:11   does it [TS]

00:10:12   so I could display games in 4k on this [TS]

00:10:14   but I still wanted to get into the [TS]

00:10:16   monitor because this one still doesn't [TS]

00:10:17   support HD people to point to which [TS]

00:10:19   probably isn't a factor of playing games [TS]

00:10:21   but it doesn't mean like Netflix and [TS]

00:10:22   other stuff like that they want to [TS]

00:10:23   display video content won't do it on 4k [TS]

00:10:25   because it doesn't do the stupid [TS]

00:10:27   intellectual property copy-protection [TS]

00:10:30   dance just the right way for stupid [TS]

00:10:33   reasons so I return this one and grand [TS]

00:10:36   Marco fashion although this is just [TS]

00:10:39   plain all my fault of like I didn't I [TS]

00:10:41   didn't even think to look for hdcp 2.2 [TS]

00:10:42   Mike actually a gaming monitor this is [TS]

00:10:44   one of those has hdmi input i should be [TS]

00:10:47   good to go but and by the way I don't [TS]

00:10:48   usually return things usually i sell [TS]

00:10:50   them I thought about selling this is [TS]

00:10:52   because like the stupid restocking fee [TS]

00:10:54   on this was going to be a lot of money [TS]

00:10:55   online well i can sell it for more than [TS]

00:10:57   the restocking fee then there's [TS]

00:10:59   restocking fee i'll return for sure [TS]

00:11:00   it's just an issue of like I don't want [TS]

00:11:02   to like like I feel bad returning things [TS]

00:11:04   when I know someone else is gonna be [TS]

00:11:05   even the cost but if I'm definitely [TS]

00:11:07   eating the cost then i won't feel bad [TS]

00:11:09   about that anymore [TS]

00:11:10   yeah I was okay if i sold it to someone [TS]

00:11:12   else like a brand new monitor that it [TS]

00:11:14   like barely even touched the pic the [TS]

00:11:15   little plastic films were stolen [TS]

00:11:16   thinking of the PLA plastic stuff that [TS]

00:11:18   protects yeah that was the one that's a [TS]

00:11:20   brand-new you but if I could have sold [TS]

00:11:22   it for somebody for like maybe eighty [TS]

00:11:24   dollars less than i paid for it then I [TS]

00:11:27   still want to come out ahead anyway so I [TS]

00:11:30   returned that one and in its place [TS]

00:11:32   I got done and LG 4k display I don't [TS]

00:11:36   have an LG 5k display I now have an LG [TS]

00:11:39   4k display doesn't have that weird [TS]

00:11:41   little head with the camera in it it is [TS]

00:11:43   not a fivehead take a look at it [TS]

00:11:46   hey what model is it the ridiculous i [TS]

00:11:49   just put the blanket ronson it is not a [TS]

00:11:51   fivehead it is more tame looking well [TS]

00:11:55   there's no edge there is it's just it's [TS]

00:11:58   just it's very thin but that it's you [TS]

00:12:00   know so you notice this one is smaller [TS]

00:12:02   overall it comes in a very small boxes [TS]

00:12:04   case he noted the frame around it is [TS]

00:12:06   very small the panel is probably the [TS]

00:12:09   same panel that's in like every LG 27 [TS]

00:12:11   inch 4k display that you can get right [TS]

00:12:13   now because they sell a whole bunch of [TS]

00:12:14   them with different letter suffixes on [TS]

00:12:16   them the little stand that it's on is [TS]

00:12:19   where the view sidekicks it's but [TS]

00:12:20   because the viewsonic stand was big [TS]

00:12:23   chunky height-adjustable and red and [TS]

00:12:26   stable right and this monitor if you [TS]

00:12:29   take your finger and put it into the [TS]

00:12:30   corner and tap upwards the monitor [TS]

00:12:32   baubles this little bobble head like [TS]

00:12:33   it's one of those little hula dolls you [TS]

00:12:35   put on dashboard or bobblehead figures [TS]

00:12:37   right it is the worst design standard [TS]

00:12:40   just connect with two screws that you're [TS]

00:12:41   screwing yourself to this little tight [TS]

00:12:43   you know thing in the back of it [TS]

00:12:45   terrible stand its ugly too i think that [TS]

00:12:47   little semicircle thing is ugly [TS]

00:12:49   it takes up more room on your desk with [TS]

00:12:50   wise and then that square thing that the [TS]

00:12:52   viewsonic know there's no red stripe but [TS]

00:12:54   it doesn't perform adequately the [TS]

00:12:57   function of keeping the monitor still so [TS]

00:12:58   if I bump my desk with my neon playing I [TS]

00:13:01   gotta watch stupid bobblehead bobble in [TS]

00:13:02   front of me now it does have a vesa [TS]

00:13:04   mount on the back and so I said all [TS]

00:13:06   right well whatever who cares about that [TS]

00:13:07   stand it's got you know [TS]

00:13:08   the hundred millimeter recent on the [TS]

00:13:10   back of the thing all i have to do is [TS]

00:13:12   find a sturdy vesa mount get rid of that [TS]

00:13:15   stupid foot and it used that but I don't [TS]

00:13:18   want an arm is that I want to clamp it [TS]

00:13:20   to my desk because I've glass on top of [TS]

00:13:22   my desk and I want to clamp onto my desk [TS]

00:13:24   isn't that you know and I just don't [TS]

00:13:26   want armed too much stuff going on back [TS]

00:13:28   there just want to stand and every [TS]

00:13:30   single visa stand i could find was [TS]

00:13:32   uglier than this foot [TS]

00:13:33   yeah you're not gonna not gonna have a [TS]

00:13:35   good time there they're terrible like [TS]

00:13:37   the metal ones look like giant metal [TS]

00:13:39   horseshoes the plastic ones look just as [TS]

00:13:42   bad as this so I'm just gonna I'm just [TS]

00:13:45   you know not hitting my desk and being [TS]

00:13:48   careful and by the way the on-screen [TS]

00:13:50   controls those ones are better than the [TS]

00:13:51   viewsonic but still pretty grim this one [TS]

00:13:52   has a tiny little joystick under the [TS]

00:13:54   middle that you move around [TS]

00:13:56   it's like kind of like a 5-way switch [TS]

00:13:57   you know you got up down left right and [TS]

00:13:58   press in but what boy what a terrible [TS]

00:14:01   interface and because it's the bottom [TS]

00:14:03   and you're wiggling a joystick [TS]

00:14:05   that'sthat's like pointing down but [TS]

00:14:06   you're trying to move controls on the [TS]

00:14:08   screen that are going you know a [TS]

00:14:10   different plane up down left and right [TS]

00:14:11   and anyway i think this one looks a [TS]

00:14:14   little bit better the view sonics panel [TS]

00:14:17   quality wise or maybe it's just that I'm [TS]

00:14:20   having had more time to tweak it because [TS]

00:14:22   the adjustments are not so painful to [TS]

00:14:23   use in the menu but has all the same [TS]

00:14:25   crap including your response time [TS]

00:14:27   adjustment in which the value that you [TS]

00:14:29   want is high i don't want high response [TS]

00:14:32   time and but yet because of the way they [TS]

00:14:34   named these features and probably the [TS]

00:14:35   decor translation of the options i have [TS]

00:14:37   to look at the manual and say which one [TS]

00:14:38   do I want for the thing with the [TS]

00:14:40   response time numbers a lower number of [TS]

00:14:42   milliseconds so high that makes sense [TS]

00:14:44   why would you ever want to be slower i [TS]

00:14:46   was i think it decreases uh you know the [TS]

00:14:49   the quality of the display decreases the [TS]

00:14:50   added something i'm assuming the color [TS]

00:14:52   quality or something like it it's doing [TS]

00:14:54   less processing on the display and [TS]

00:14:55   probably you know it's it's trying to [TS]

00:14:58   not put as much computation between the [TS]

00:15:01   signal and the screen [TS]

00:15:03   same thing with is like a sharpness [TS]

00:15:04   thing that apply a sharpness filter and [TS]

00:15:06   especially when playing games in 1080 [TS]

00:15:08   like destiny is still just 1080 sharpen [TS]

00:15:11   filter does help make the text look [TS]

00:15:12   better but it adds processing overhead [TS]

00:15:14   so if you really want the best response [TS]

00:15:15   time i'm assuming that the best option [TS]

00:15:17   is to turn the sharpest all the way down [TS]

00:15:19   which is what I've done anyway i was [TS]

00:15:20   able to adjust this to get a look [TS]

00:15:22   little bit better to my eyes then the [TS]

00:15:23   viewsonic and now i'm just patiently [TS]

00:15:25   waiting for 4k games to come up so i do [TS]

00:15:29   not have this exact same honor I was [TS]

00:15:30   mistaken for a couple different reasons [TS]

00:15:32   1i i'm pretty sure two different models [TS]

00:15:34   so you got the ud 68 hyphen p [TS]

00:15:39   I got the ud 58 hyphen be and that's the [TS]

00:15:43   key bozell on mine is considerably [TS]

00:15:46   larger than the bozell on yours also you [TS]

00:15:50   chose poorly [TS]

00:15:51   if this is ever going to get connected [TS]

00:15:53   to a computer if you're if you're ever [TS]

00:15:55   going to connect to computer 4k is not [TS]

00:15:57   enough DPI for 27 inches [TS]

00:16:00   you should have gotten 5k yeah i'm not [TS]

00:16:02   american gangster computer computer [TS]

00:16:04   connected to my gaming pc well you could [TS]

00:16:06   connected to your piece of garbage mac [TS]

00:16:09   in theory and then actually have a [TS]

00:16:10   random act no I would this also is never [TS]

00:16:13   going to be connected to a mac i love [TS]

00:16:15   that all this trouble you're going [TS]

00:16:17   through I mean this is all like this [TS]

00:16:19   crazy stuff you're going through and [TS]

00:16:21   having this whole separate desk setup [TS]

00:16:23   that of course this one going to your [TS]

00:16:24   mac and everything and having this pc [TS]

00:16:26   monitor all this and yet you won't build [TS]

00:16:29   a gaming pc like you're basically doing [TS]

00:16:31   equally you're putting in all the effort [TS]

00:16:33   that it would take to have a game no CA [TS]

00:16:35   the PlayStation is way less effort than [TS]

00:16:37   a gaming pc way less than all I mean [TS]

00:16:40   once you get into all this crazy monitor [TS]

00:16:42   twiddling you're doing I mean really [TS]

00:16:44   like you might like why is there not a [TS]

00:16:46   gaming pc on this second second to your [TS]

00:16:49   desk that you have the game bc would not [TS]

00:16:51   do it there's no destiny for pc yellow [TS]

00:16:53   destiny to maybe coming to pc fans [TS]

00:16:55   anyway there's no destiny for bc us [TS]

00:16:57   guardian for pc there's no uncharted 4 [TS]

00:17:00   BC that like I need to have this this is [TS]

00:17:03   the thing that I need their gaming pc [TS]

00:17:05   does not replace this in any possible [TS]

00:17:06   especially since the only thing I do [TS]

00:17:08   with my console players play like a [TS]

00:17:09   handful of games that are essentially [TS]

00:17:11   console exclusives even on my nintendo [TS]

00:17:13   consoles there's no gaming pc is going [TS]

00:17:15   to play an XL the game right that's what [TS]

00:17:17   i buy these things for so i would have [TS]

00:17:19   to have a gaming pc in addition to this [TS]

00:17:21   and there's no report and it's way more [TS]

00:17:23   headache honest you know I didn't mind [TS]

00:17:25   the 4k think i was excited to get a 4k [TS]

00:17:27   monitor and play games that resolution i [TS]

00:17:29   do a few games that have [TS]

00:17:30   that had updates that came out which [TS]

00:17:32   really just makes things a little bit [TS]

00:17:33   sharper because i like they redid all [TS]

00:17:34   the textures for the most part I think [TS]

00:17:36   over watches for can now I haven't [TS]

00:17:38   looked at yet but anyway there's a bunch [TS]

00:17:40   of games there and having been a the [TS]

00:17:43   playstation vr yet but i'm considering [TS]

00:17:45   getting that but now i'm i'm pretty [TS]

00:17:47   happy with the setup [TS]

00:17:48   oh my mom about the ps4 probe the only [TS]

00:17:51   complaint I have about it and I realize [TS]

00:17:52   you probably just complain to sony and [TS]

00:17:55   get this fixed the one controller that [TS]

00:17:58   the ps4 pro came with the left analog [TS]

00:18:00   stick if you look at it like from the [TS]

00:18:02   side is tilted in the neutral position [TS]

00:18:04   ever so slightly and then I'm gonna have [TS]

00:18:06   any of that so i'm using my old i'm [TS]

00:18:10   using my old girl shocked because they [TS]

00:18:12   didn't change the controller anything [TS]

00:18:13   has changed like the buttons are now [TS]

00:18:15   like ugly gray instead of a black and [TS]

00:18:17   thick maybe triggers might be a little [TS]

00:18:18   bit better anyway I'm gonna complain to [TS]

00:18:20   Sony's look at this thing out of the box [TS]

00:18:22   I've never touched it [TS]

00:18:23   the in the in the neutral position all [TS]

00:18:25   these analog sticks should be straight [TS]

00:18:26   up and down this one is tilted to give [TS]

00:18:28   me a new thing I'm sure Sony will be [TS]

00:18:31   happy to do that for me [TS]

00:18:33   oh I'm sure on the one side John I truly [TS]

00:18:37   genuinely admire how perceptive you are [TS]

00:18:41   and how you can notice these little [TS]

00:18:43   things [TS]

00:18:43   oh you would notice it's not like oh [TS]

00:18:45   this is obscured only notice that [TS]

00:18:47   they're like a out of level or a plumb [TS]

00:18:49   bob you've noticed with your eyeballs it [TS]

00:18:50   is not not subtle but with that said I [TS]

00:18:54   am so glad that i am at worst mildly [TS]

00:18:58   critical and hypercritical pqr this [TS]

00:19:03   little conversation i'm sitting here [TS]

00:19:04   thinking thank God [TS]

00:19:06   this is one area I don't really care [TS]

00:19:08   about like I don't care about gaming [TS]

00:19:10   really at all i'd like to but i don't i [TS]

00:19:12   barely care about tvs i barely care [TS]

00:19:16   about TV adjustments in picture quality [TS]

00:19:18   judgments and everything I am just I I [TS]

00:19:20   certainly don't care about analog sticks [TS]

00:19:22   being slightly tilted from neutral i am [TS]

00:19:25   just so happy that I'd like there's so [TS]

00:19:27   many areas that I care way too much [TS]

00:19:29   about at least here's one that I don't [TS]

00:19:32   yep i'm not i'm not carving my own [TS]

00:19:35   analog sticks out of plastic that be the [TS]

00:19:37   equivalent of you roasting your own [TS]

00:19:38   beans a person remains is really not [TS]

00:19:40   that hard and it's really good i know [TS]

00:19:42   but like it [TS]

00:19:44   it is one thing to be picky about the [TS]

00:19:46   things that you buy but at a certain [TS]

00:19:47   point you said there's nothing I can buy [TS]

00:19:48   I must I must make it myself and that [TS]

00:19:50   would be going to be carving my own [TS]

00:19:52   controllers and I got a controller [TS]

00:19:53   assembly kit and like making my own [TS]

00:19:55   analog sticks in like assembling [TS]

00:19:56   different pieces you try to find good [TS]

00:19:58   coffee on this half of the county i [TS]

00:20:00   guarantee you can't find it [TS]

00:20:01   there's no good control is either but I [TS]

00:20:03   just accept what they only ones i just [TS]

00:20:05   wanted to be like you know correct as a [TS]

00:20:08   when it comes out-of-the-box everything [TS]

00:20:10   should be straight if you could make [TS]

00:20:11   your imperfect controller for five [TS]

00:20:12   dollars in 20 minutes when you do it it [TS]

00:20:14   and then i have to drink it and it's [TS]

00:20:15   gone i gotta do it all over again and [TS]

00:20:17   the analogy is breaking down all right [TS]

00:20:19   so anyway um this this monitor that you [TS]

00:20:22   bought John is not HDR is that correct [TS]

00:20:25   now it's not it's not one of the because [TS]

00:20:27   that's why you bought that god-awful red [TS]

00:20:29   racing stripe to be Sonic was to get are [TS]

00:20:32   none of them are no you can't get as [TS]

00:20:33   performers are there there are none for [TS]

00:20:35   sale there is no there is no gaming [TS]

00:20:37   monitor like that you can get a TV with [TS]

00:20:39   HD are you get a 4k TV with hdmi port [TS]

00:20:41   for ps4 pro but as far as I was able to [TS]

00:20:43   determine there is no monitor computer [TS]

00:20:46   monitor that you can buy as in the thing [TS]

00:20:48   that's 27 inches not 55 you put a desk [TS]

00:20:51   as a CR support this episode is brought [TS]

00:20:55   to you by Squarespace start building [TS]

00:20:57   your website today at squarespace.com [TS]

00:20:58   enter offer code ATP at checkout to get [TS]

00:21:02   ten percent off [TS]

00:21:03   Squarespace sites look amazingly look [TS]

00:21:06   professionally designed regardless of [TS]

00:21:08   your skill level and you don't have to [TS]

00:21:09   code although if you want to you can [TS]

00:21:11   jump in there and edit the code you can [TS]

00:21:13   do things like inject JavaScript or [TS]

00:21:15   inject your own CSS move around the [TS]

00:21:17   blocks to customize your theme but if [TS]

00:21:19   you don't want to you don't have to you [TS]

00:21:21   can drag and drop things if you want to [TS]

00:21:22   you can just change colors and stuff or [TS]

00:21:24   you can change nothing [TS]

00:21:25   it's totally up to you with squarespace [TS]

00:21:27   with their intuitive easy-to-use tools [TS]

00:21:29   for building websites it is such a huge [TS]

00:21:32   difference from the way we used to build [TS]

00:21:34   websites it is so much easier today with [TS]

00:21:37   squarespace you've got to check it out [TS]

00:21:38   if you're making this site for yourself [TS]

00:21:40   or even better if you're making a site [TS]

00:21:42   for somebody else if you don Squarespace [TS]

00:21:44   they support it [TS]

00:21:46   you don't have to be involved it's [TS]

00:21:48   amazing [TS]

00:21:49   so if you're making up for somebody else [TS]

00:21:51   or if you just want to save time [TS]

00:21:52   yourself which is usually the right move [TS]

00:21:54   because you know what [TS]

00:21:55   these days the worst use of your time is [TS]

00:21:58   updating a website CMS you need to [TS]

00:22:00   outsource that to squarespace whether [TS]

00:22:02   you're making the site for yourself or [TS]

00:22:03   somebody else let them handle that [TS]

00:22:05   so you couldn't do your project you can [TS]

00:22:07   do you can show your photos you can make [TS]

00:22:09   your store you can make your portfolio [TS]

00:22:11   you can make a blog website for your [TS]

00:22:13   business or anything else you can do [TS]

00:22:15   everything you need to do with [TS]

00:22:17   squarespace so check out today to [TS]

00:22:19   squarespace com start free trial when [TS]

00:22:22   you decide to sign up but you probably [TS]

00:22:23   will because amazing use offer code ATP [TS]

00:22:26   to get ten percent off your purchase [TS]

00:22:28   things like the squarespace for [TS]

00:22:30   sponsoring our show [TS]

00:22:31   ah can you guys see the difference [TS]

00:22:37   between wide color and not because maybe [TS]

00:22:40   I've just never really had a good [TS]

00:22:43   example photo and like two screens next [TS]

00:22:46   to each other but briefly before I gave [TS]

00:22:48   up my success when I have but I did have [TS]

00:22:51   my seven i held the two of them [TS]

00:22:53   side-by-side and damned if I could tell [TS]

00:22:54   the difference not office in my eyes are [TS]

00:22:56   crappy which they unequivocally are if I [TS]

00:22:58   just don't appreciate it which is [TS]

00:22:59   possible or it did is it just not that [TS]

00:23:03   big a deal if you're not like a designer [TS]

00:23:05   like Marco for example do you are you [TS]

00:23:07   able to tell the difference when you [TS]

00:23:08   just look at arbitrary photo on a wide [TS]

00:23:12   color display vs a not white color [TS]

00:23:14   display not yet i suspect as wide color [TS]

00:23:19   displays become what I'm looking at [TS]

00:23:20   every day is like right now I do most of [TS]

00:23:22   my computing on a 2014 5 k iMac which [TS]

00:23:25   does not have the the high color display [TS]

00:23:27   and so I now have it on my phone and my [TS]

00:23:30   ipad but really i'm doing almost all of [TS]

00:23:32   my you know looking at things on my imac [TS]

00:23:36   but it's not it's not doesn't matter [TS]

00:23:37   where you look at them it's the source [TS]

00:23:39   material so Casey if you have something [TS]

00:23:41   you look at if you look the same picture [TS]

00:23:43   that you took in a pre wide color world [TS]

00:23:46   of course is gonna look the same because [TS]

00:23:48   there's no white color information in it [TS]

00:23:49   you have to take the picture with a [TS]

00:23:51   device capable of capturing that and [TS]

00:23:53   then look at that same picture 1 unlike [TS]

00:23:56   your iphone 7 that you took it on the [TS]

00:23:57   took a white color picture and the other [TS]

00:23:59   one that I thought that's what I did but [TS]

00:24:01   but but truth be told it was right when [TS]

00:24:04   i first got the seven [TS]

00:24:05   I wouldn't put it past needed to [TS]

00:24:06   accidentally have taken like an old [TS]

00:24:08   picture [TS]

00:24:08   and so I don't see anything but and I've [TS]

00:24:11   seen like the sample images like where [TS]

00:24:13   there's a like a big red blob and [TS]

00:24:15   there's an are hidden in there that you [TS]

00:24:17   wouldn't see unless its wide color you [TS]

00:24:19   don't stuff like that but nevertheless [TS]

00:24:22   on a regular picture I've not noticed [TS]

00:24:24   the difference and as a corollary [TS]

00:24:25   question is is my two-year-old micro [TS]

00:24:30   four-thirds I presume that's not wide [TS]

00:24:32   colors that fair to say most cameras [TS]

00:24:35   have well most cameras don't have this [TS]

00:24:37   option middle and high end cameras often [TS]

00:24:40   will have an option to save the colors [TS]

00:24:42   in adobe RGB maybe instead of like srgb [TS]

00:24:45   but as far I haven't looked too much [TS]

00:24:48   into this as far as i know that i think [TS]

00:24:50   the conversion happens after raw anyway [TS]

00:24:53   so you might be able to fix this with [TS]

00:24:55   just a different Rock conversion process [TS]

00:24:56   and John do you know about this i was [TS]

00:24:59   gonna say what you said like there are [TS]

00:25:00   other color profiles that are not called [TS]

00:25:01   p3 that nevertheless have a larger range [TS]

00:25:03   than srgb ya kiddo BRB he's one of them [TS]

00:25:06   yeah I don't know which what the little [TS]

00:25:07   envelopes looks like an all of them but [TS]

00:25:09   and especially if you capture all I [TS]

00:25:11   Kevin that's all the information you're [TS]

00:25:12   going to get and if you can pull myself [TS]

00:25:14   out of it i don't know but yeah I would [TS]

00:25:15   like your best source for images with [TS]

00:25:18   white color is your iphone 7 because [TS]

00:25:19   it's you know but it's all connected up [TS]

00:25:22   and then there if you actually look like [TS]

00:25:25   cranberries page where he has a bunch of [TS]

00:25:27   sample images if you really can't tell [TS]

00:25:29   the difference between the sample images [TS]

00:25:30   because they're made to like emphasize [TS]

00:25:32   the areas where humans can perceive the [TS]

00:25:34   p3 color difference more but those [TS]

00:25:38   really emphasize those are kind of like [TS]

00:25:39   artificial but i have seen some other [TS]

00:25:41   pictures where it's like just a picture [TS]

00:25:43   of like a park like grass in a tree and [TS]

00:25:46   some sky and if you see them [TS]

00:25:48   side-by-side like I do on my iPad pro [TS]

00:25:49   and i go to that page like all right i [TS]

00:25:51   mean it's not doesn't jump out at you [TS]

00:25:52   but if you look you're like like is this [TS]

00:25:55   really the same picture it's like yes [TS]

00:25:56   this is literally the same picture [TS]

00:25:58   because one is srgb and the other one is [TS]

00:26:00   showing the four white color in the full [TS]

00:26:02   what color one that it's it's almost [TS]

00:26:05   like contrast is turned down the other [TS]

00:26:07   one like there's not like the Greens [TS]

00:26:09   don't look as green like most you know [TS]

00:26:11   on the grass type situation like all [TS]

00:26:12   that tree looks a little bit more past [TS]

00:26:14   le and washed out now [TS]

00:26:15   not a lot but you have to see them [TS]

00:26:17   side-by-side to see it i don't think i [TS]

00:26:18   could pick one out alone but if you [TS]

00:26:20   literally show me the same picture and [TS]

00:26:21   why [TS]

00:26:21   not why'd you go all the wide looks a [TS]

00:26:23   little better that's about it ok ok so [TS]

00:26:25   I'm not entirely crazy then because i'm [TS]

00:26:26   looking at this link on WebKit will put [TS]

00:26:28   in the show notes and they have like [TS]

00:26:30   this is what i was thinking of the [TS]

00:26:32   WebKit logo which is like this big red [TS]

00:26:33   blob that in srgb you don't see the logo [TS]

00:26:37   and then if you go into p3 you can see [TS]

00:26:40   the logo well if you scroll down on that [TS]

00:26:41   same page they have yellow flower and if [TS]

00:26:44   you click with this is like what you're [TS]

00:26:45   saying John if you click between the [TS]

00:26:47   sRGB only and the p3 unequivocally I can [TS]

00:26:51   tell that the p3 is much more vivid and [TS]

00:26:54   looks more real [TS]

00:26:55   but if i were to look at either of these [TS]

00:26:57   images like you said John without the [TS]

00:26:59   other side by side [TS]

00:27:01   unlike say a Retina screen versus a non [TS]

00:27:04   retina screen were just words just [TS]

00:27:05   unbelievably obvious with these i don't [TS]

00:27:09   think i would notice the difference [TS]

00:27:10   unless they're side by side [TS]

00:27:11   I mean that's how I'm with most of these [TS]

00:27:12   to it you know that like the example [TS]

00:27:14   things if I look at it like I'm ipad pro [TS]

00:27:16   which is my current biggest mp3 screen [TS]

00:27:18   it the these pictures look great Shirley [TS]

00:27:21   like that the big orange Sun sets like [TS]

00:27:23   yet they do look a little more saturated [TS]

00:27:25   in in those like orangie reddish tones [TS]

00:27:27   but you can look at a non retina screen [TS]

00:27:30   or a non-retina image our asset on a [TS]

00:27:33   webpage on retina screen and you can [TS]

00:27:34   tell that difference immediately [TS]

00:27:36   the very first thing I see that is [TS]

00:27:38   non-retina if you after your custom [TS]

00:27:41   retina you notice that immediately [TS]

00:27:42   whereas if I am scrolling through web [TS]

00:27:44   page and I see a picture of an orange [TS]

00:27:46   sunset that is not p3 after used to p3 i [TS]

00:27:49   don't think i will notice because it [TS]

00:27:51   could just look like it wasn't as [TS]

00:27:52   saturated a picture as it could have [TS]

00:27:54   been and so it's not you know it's a way [TS]

00:27:57   smaller advance for everyday casual [TS]

00:28:00   observing and for most people it's nice [TS]

00:28:03   to have i'm glad they're doing it and [TS]

00:28:06   it's especially nice you know if you [TS]

00:28:08   actually shoot a lot of pictures of [TS]

00:28:09   orange Sun sets and things but it's it's [TS]

00:28:12   a very you know in in general use it's [TS]

00:28:14   the kind of thing you can very easily [TS]

00:28:15   forget that you even have ok that was my [TS]

00:28:18   experience as well when I was curious [TS]

00:28:20   because I feel like maybe it's just [TS]

00:28:22   because I follow people like Hockenberry [TS]

00:28:23   and Mark Edwards and and that you know [TS]

00:28:25   they're really revved up about it but to [TS]

00:28:27   me I was like man I barely see the [TS]

00:28:29   difference and I'm glad to hear that [TS]

00:28:30   that's not necessarily unusual the two [TS]

00:28:32   more things on the monitors first Casey [TS]

00:28:34   when you get back [TS]

00:28:35   the work you should tap the underside of [TS]

00:28:37   one of the corners your monitor and see [TS]

00:28:38   if you got a bobblehead to because I [TS]

00:28:39   think you owe I definitely do [TS]

00:28:41   oh yeah but it's like what a bad job [TS]

00:28:43   like the stand as one simple function [TS]

00:28:45   just put the monitor up off the desk off [TS]

00:28:47   the ground and keep it still [TS]

00:28:48   and it fails that thing not the other [TS]

00:28:50   thing is the one thing even though the [TS]

00:28:52   LG monitors you know it's not much to it [TS]

00:28:54   like it is just black everywhere it's [TS]

00:28:56   not mad it's not shiny doesn't have much [TS]

00:28:58   of a frame around it is not a fivehead [TS]

00:29:00   the part of the bottom is the biggest [TS]

00:29:02   part so like its proportions that the LG [TS]

00:29:04   logo is small and subtle but if you go [TS]

00:29:06   to that Amazon page from my thing and do [TS]

00:29:08   the little do me thing you can you zoom [TS]

00:29:10   in and see the LG logo right move over [TS]

00:29:12   to the right from the LG logo what do [TS]

00:29:14   you see there lurking in the corner [TS]

00:29:16   because this is a pc products just got [TS]

00:29:19   to be ugly in some stupid way what do [TS]

00:29:20   you see there this stupid energy star [TS]

00:29:23   and it's small it's not a big energy [TS]

00:29:25   star badge and it's black and white like [TS]

00:29:27   it's not colored and weird but like the [TS]

00:29:30   whole front of this thing has nothing on [TS]

00:29:32   it i will accept the LG logo is small [TS]

00:29:34   and tasteful and centered why the hell [TS]

00:29:36   is an NGO store and so I'm like I'm just [TS]

00:29:38   going to peel that sticker off but it's [TS]

00:29:40   one of those stickers we're gonna have [TS]

00:29:42   to think on it for a while because it is [TS]

00:29:44   clearly not one of the ones that comes [TS]

00:29:45   off easy [TS]

00:29:46   you know the ones that like made to come [TS]

00:29:47   on like the metal one it's not metal [TS]

00:29:50   it's not plastic like here's that is the [TS]

00:29:52   math happened like I know I could get it [TS]

00:29:55   off but after i get it off [TS]

00:29:57   what's the left underneath the square [TS]

00:29:59   where it used to be [TS]

00:30:01   well that look worse than the sticker [TS]

00:30:02   because the sticker for all its ugliness [TS]

00:30:04   looks like a sticker right it's the [TS]

00:30:06   Energy Star logo that peel it often is a [TS]

00:30:08   bunch of like sticky crap or I damage [TS]

00:30:10   the plastic underneath the business [TS]

00:30:12   cheap plastic this is not an aluminum [TS]

00:30:14   apple display or anything right [TS]

00:30:15   if I damage it somehow or get sticky [TS]

00:30:18   stuff in there that I can somehow can't [TS]

00:30:20   get off with you know careful [TS]

00:30:21   application of skin so soft on it which [TS]

00:30:23   by the way that's a secret for all you [TS]

00:30:25   out there if you get sticky crap from [TS]

00:30:27   stickers on them [TS]

00:30:28   one of the many things that will remove [TS]

00:30:29   it i know there are many products but [TS]

00:30:30   the one of the ones that I've used for [TS]

00:30:31   years is Avon skin so soft which I think [TS]

00:30:34   was supposed to be a thing that softens [TS]

00:30:35   your skin [TS]

00:30:36   the only thing i've ever used it for [TS]

00:30:38   takeoff sticker scope and it's got a [TS]

00:30:40   pleasanter oh my god why I i love the [TS]

00:30:44   extent to which we will avoid talking [TS]

00:30:46   about the microsoft surface to do [TS]

00:30:48   no get there get there anyway energy [TS]

00:30:53   star sticker uh it's you know it's got [TS]

00:30:55   to be ugly in some way and i said i [TS]

00:30:57   don't like that semi circular or stand [TS]

00:30:59   on no no that was nice but it's not so [TS]

00:31:02   that energy star sticker that on your [TS]

00:31:04   monitors on the bottom right i have what [TS]

00:31:07   appeared to be an identical one but if [TS]

00:31:09   you look at the stand and you know how [TS]

00:31:11   its kind of tilted at a sort of not a [TS]

00:31:14   45-degree angle like a 30 degree angle [TS]

00:31:16   maybe well mine was all the way on the [TS]

00:31:18   left on that stand and I let it sit for [TS]

00:31:20   a week or two before even noticed it and [TS]

00:31:22   I was like all this crap in and you know [TS]

00:31:24   what i did i immediately ripped it off [TS]

00:31:25   because I don't worry about things like [TS]

00:31:27   you do and there was no residue or if [TS]

00:31:30   there's residue I like rub data with my [TS]

00:31:31   thumb for a second that you don't know [TS]

00:31:33   if there's residue you probably just [TS]

00:31:35   that I don't even see them in the Amazon [TS]

00:31:37   picture of your mother I don't see the [TS]

00:31:38   energy star sticker anywhere I you're [TS]

00:31:40   right i don't see it either but it was [TS]

00:31:42   there for sure [TS]

00:31:43   yeah so anyway I'm i might make a run at [TS]

00:31:46   sticker eventually just rip it off John [TS]

00:31:48   it's like a band-aid just rip it off [TS]

00:31:50   yeah I all right speaking windows stuff [TS]

00:31:54   we got a series of tweets from Jordan [TS]

00:31:57   who is nerdy Oh phage on Twitter and he [TS]

00:32:01   tweeted uh five things I'll read them in [TS]

00:32:04   series he says I spent a week with a [TS]

00:32:06   macbook pro escape after two solid [TS]

00:32:08   decades of windows use I was of the [TS]

00:32:10   opinion that Marcos on a batch dislike [TS]

00:32:12   of Oh of the OS of windows was equal [TS]

00:32:15   parts adoptive culture / fanboyism / [TS]

00:32:18   certain showmanship [TS]

00:32:19   I stand corrected in a little bit [TS]

00:32:20   humbled the windows the windows path [TS]

00:32:23   from neophyte power users shaped by red [TS]

00:32:25   registry at its decoder rings and secret [TS]

00:32:28   knocks which is arduous mac OS x [TS]

00:32:31   comparison feels inviting friendly and [TS]

00:32:32   intuitive like a late-night conversation [TS]

00:32:35   at a dinner party with good friends so [TS]

00:32:36   tldr this is still Jordan mac OS holy [TS]

00:32:40   crap I get it [TS]

00:32:41   transition costs will be very high but [TS]

00:32:43   seriously considering it and this echoes [TS]

00:32:46   my experience in 2008 of switching from [TS]

00:32:48   windows 2 20 s 10 at the time there were [TS]

00:32:51   two weeks where I doubted my life and [TS]

00:32:54   thought I'd made a terrible awful [TS]

00:32:55   horrible choice and then then I'd never [TS]

00:32:57   look back [TS]

00:32:58   I'm not saying that Jordans experience [TS]

00:32:59   is true for everyone because now we're [TS]

00:33:01   gonna have all the windows [TS]

00:33:02   all just writing in telling us how [TS]

00:33:03   Windows is good and we're a bunch of [TS]

00:33:05   jerks and blah blah blah but they still [TS]

00:33:06   really listen to us as some do because [TS]

00:33:09   we still get emails i'm not saying that [TS]

00:33:12   this is true for everyone i'm not saying [TS]

00:33:13   windows isn't better in some way or [TS]

00:33:14   another but I am saying is that we are [TS]

00:33:16   not the only girl here not the only ones [TS]

00:33:18   that seem to think that there's a better [TS]

00:33:20   way so just thought i'd share those [TS]

00:33:22   series of tweets from Jordan so thank [TS]

00:33:24   you jordan for writing us uh we had an [TS]

00:33:27   interesting conversation in slack Marco [TS]

00:33:29   and I'd like to air agreements let's [TS]

00:33:33   back up to circa january maybe december [TS]

00:33:37   so almost a year ago now and the two of [TS]

00:33:41   you but my recollection was that it was [TS]

00:33:43   mostly Marco we're saying you know what [TS]

00:33:47   Casey you should never put personal crap [TS]

00:33:49   on your laptop on your work laptop you [TS]

00:33:52   should really have a nice powerful [TS]

00:33:55   machine for home use [TS]

00:33:56   you probably shouldn't be ignoring Aaron [TS]

00:33:59   and using your laptop while you're [TS]

00:34:00   sitting next to her on the couch you [TS]

00:34:02   know what you need you need my Mac I've [TS]

00:34:04   tried the laptop dance Casey it's no [TS]

00:34:06   good it's no good man get the imac think [TS]

00:34:09   about that 27-inch beautiful at 5k [TS]

00:34:11   display with white color blah blah blah [TS]

00:34:13   i'm telling you it's the way to go [TS]

00:34:15   this is there are some I've seen that [TS]

00:34:17   picture with your summary already but go [TS]

00:34:19   ahead but then fast forward to I don't [TS]

00:34:23   know a few days ago when Marco is [TS]

00:34:25   talking in slack that private place that [TS]

00:34:27   we really shouldn't bring up publicly [TS]

00:34:28   but here I am because I'm annoyed coach [TS]

00:34:31   is talking into black and saying hmm you [TS]

00:34:34   know what maybe I'll get a new macbook [TS]

00:34:37   pro in a 5k display and i'll be back to [TS]

00:34:40   a one machine man again and I won't even [TS]

00:34:42   have to have a stupid desktop anymore [TS]

00:34:44   mm that's not okay okay so here's what I [TS]

00:34:50   said [TS]

00:34:51   so basically looking looking at [TS]

00:34:53   performance of everything and and [TS]

00:34:55   figuring a a potential and maybe even [TS]

00:34:58   likely future that does not include the [TS]

00:35:01   mac pro existing and also includes [TS]

00:35:04   standalone 5k retina displays that can [TS]

00:35:07   plug into laptops that have [TS]

00:35:10   not not matching but maybe ninety [TS]

00:35:13   percent of the performance of imax or [TS]

00:35:16   eighty percent of the performance of [TS]

00:35:17   imax i always say the reason I by the 15 [TS]

00:35:21   inch laptops is because when I'm [TS]

00:35:24   traveling I either need almost nothing [TS]

00:35:27   in which case doesn't matter what I [TS]

00:35:28   haven't that left me there like you type [TS]

00:35:30   emails faster more like browse Twitter [TS]

00:35:33   or I'm doing serious work whether it's [TS]

00:35:36   xcode or like lightroom photo it raw [TS]

00:35:39   importing and stuff and editing either [TS]

00:35:41   way like usually when i use a laptop [TS]

00:35:44   during travel I i want a lot of screen [TS]

00:35:48   space and I want a lot of horsepower [TS]

00:35:49   I also now have an imac as my main [TS]

00:35:54   computer and looking at the specs of [TS]

00:35:56   these computers these days and we'll [TS]

00:35:58   compare you know comparing the the new [TS]

00:36:00   MacBook Pros with LG 5k display you know [TS]

00:36:04   assuming it's good we don't actually [TS]

00:36:05   know yet but it will soon as good as the [TS]

00:36:07   probably is comparing that against the [TS]

00:36:10   imac you know basically I am maintaining [TS]

00:36:12   and upgrading and paying for two [TS]

00:36:15   different computers with overall fairly [TS]

00:36:18   similar hardware and fairly similar [TS]

00:36:21   performance and so I thought you know [TS]

00:36:24   what I probably should do but won't and [TS]

00:36:28   I bolted won't but I said what I [TS]

00:36:32   probably should do is stop having two [TS]

00:36:35   similar respect max that I pay for and [TS]

00:36:39   and maintain and everything or just have [TS]

00:36:41   a case a top-of-the-line 15-inch macbook [TS]

00:36:44   pro that I use like many people do in [TS]

00:36:47   clamshell mode [TS]

00:36:49   next you know on my desk most of the [TS]

00:36:50   time but then when I travel I can just [TS]

00:36:52   take that with me and have all the power [TS]

00:36:54   of this maxed-out computer with me that [TS]

00:36:58   is what i should do it is not what I'm [TS]

00:37:00   doing that and maybe in the future i [TS]

00:37:03   will do that you know you know me I [TS]

00:37:05   always change everything up never happy [TS]

00:37:06   so maybe in the future i will do that I [TS]

00:37:10   think I really want to wait and see what [TS]

00:37:12   happens to the mac pro next year first [TS]

00:37:13   you know if it turns out the mac pro is [TS]

00:37:15   really dead and that the best weekend [TS]

00:37:17   ever hope for in desktops is imac [TS]

00:37:20   hardware that's ten twenty percent [TS]

00:37:22   faster than the macbook pros [TS]

00:37:23   the day then that might make a lot of [TS]

00:37:26   sense actually for me but I really [TS]

00:37:28   handle the fan noise I guarantee it [TS]

00:37:30   you just think about the imac also has [TS]

00:37:32   family that's the problem when as loud [TS]

00:37:34   as a 15-inch no way [TS]

00:37:35   well so so again i want to see the new [TS]

00:37:37   15 inches first I want to know I want to [TS]

00:37:39   have some experience with them hopefully [TS]

00:37:40   to see like you know is this really you [TS]

00:37:42   know how are these machines they really [TS]

00:37:44   did reduce the fan noise noticeably when [TS]

00:37:46   they move from the old crappy [TS]

00:37:48   symmetrical fan blades to the retina [TS]

00:37:51   macbook pro and 2012 when when Johnny [TS]

00:37:53   first talked about the asymmetric family [TS]

00:37:55   they showed this show the waveform yeah [TS]

00:37:56   it's not louder but it did the like the [TS]

00:38:00   annoying this other Diana asymmetrical [TS]

00:38:02   really help with the annoying this it [TS]

00:38:03   turned into a white-noise thing but I [TS]

00:38:05   think it's still dark honest I i'm [TS]

00:38:07   annoyed that i can hear the imac at all [TS]

00:38:09   i'm annoyed at what I hear what i hear a [TS]

00:38:12   laptop going with the is having are the [TS]

00:38:14   new ones obviously but the asymmetrical [TS]

00:38:15   fan ones they still I don't like the [TS]

00:38:18   sound of like a white noise generating [TS]

00:38:19   machine yet neither do i and III don't [TS]

00:38:22   like cc1 my imac fan spin up i consider [TS]

00:38:25   that like something that idea to put [TS]

00:38:27   headphones on right now and stop here in [TS]

00:38:29   this order to find the process that is [TS]

00:38:31   using all my cpu power and just kill it [TS]

00:38:33   because I I can i I really don't like [TS]

00:38:35   hearing fan noise while I work [TS]

00:38:37   it's simple as that so you know it a [TS]

00:38:39   macro is silent under load in most rooms [TS]

00:38:42   and that's one of the reasons i love it [TS]

00:38:43   and that's one thing that will greatly [TS]

00:38:45   miss if it is truly dead forever which [TS]

00:38:47   you know again I i think it's looking [TS]

00:38:49   increasingly likely we'll see what [TS]

00:38:50   happens next year but anyway so all I [TS]

00:38:53   was saying was it doesn't make a lot of [TS]

00:38:55   sense for me to maintain two different [TS]

00:38:59   fork or mid-range to high-end machines [TS]

00:39:02   from Apple when I occasionally need one [TS]

00:39:05   on the road but most of the time it's at [TS]

00:39:06   my desk [TS]

00:39:07   it would make more sense to consolidate [TS]

00:39:09   into one computer and maybe even pull an [TS]

00:39:12   imax I should be great and have two [TS]

00:39:15   laptops maybe I have that crazy one and [TS]

00:39:17   also a very small one like either an [TS]

00:39:20   escape or macbook 144 the travel needs [TS]

00:39:24   during which i don't need a lot of power [TS]

00:39:26   and I just want to have the smallest [TS]

00:39:27   thing possible and that would hardly [TS]

00:39:28   ever get upgraded but that is a world [TS]

00:39:31   that I probably should go to but [TS]

00:39:34   currently i am not going to that [TS]

00:39:36   because currently i'm still waiting out [TS]

00:39:37   the potential mac pro of the future so i [TS]

00:39:41   will see [TS]

00:39:42   ATT says pointing out in the chat room [TS]

00:39:44   that I should not forget that six core [TS]

00:39:47   chips will be coming to the imac [TS]

00:39:50   consumer core i7 line [TS]

00:39:52   presumably you know in in the near [TS]

00:39:55   future a six core imac would be awesome [TS]

00:39:58   i would really prefer more you know it [TS]

00:40:01   isn't gonna upgrade from for I want to [TS]

00:40:04   pick up where i want to go to eight or [TS]

00:40:05   twelve even or even more if i can get it [TS]

00:40:07   and so I'd be nice to have even more but [TS]

00:40:11   you know we'll see again at this this [TS]

00:40:13   all depends on what the hardware brings [TS]

00:40:15   over the next year or two and whether [TS]

00:40:18   Apple even makes computers that use [TS]

00:40:20   these chips are coming out we don't even [TS]

00:40:21   know that so we'll see time will tell [TS]

00:40:24   but right now i am not going all laptop [TS]

00:40:26   but all I was saying that if I were more [TS]

00:40:29   sensible it would probably be a better [TS]

00:40:32   allocation of resources to just do that [TS]

00:40:34   which is probably the reason why so many [TS]

00:40:36   people do exactly that [TS]

00:40:38   indeed I just wanted to grumble at you [TS]

00:40:41   publicly for a moment so I feel much [TS]

00:40:43   better now thanks everyone responds to [TS]

00:40:47   tonight by betterment to go to [TS]

00:40:49   betterment calm / ATP for investing made [TS]

00:40:52   better betterment is the largest [TS]

00:40:54   automated investing service out there is [TS]

00:40:56   independent managing more than 5.5 [TS]

00:40:58   billion dollars for over a hundred and [TS]

00:41:00   eighty thousand customers as of this [TS]

00:41:02   past September Betterman has changed the [TS]

00:41:04   investing into making investing easier [TS]

00:41:07   and a lower cost and traditional [TS]

00:41:09   financial advising services better it [TS]

00:41:11   manages your investment with the same [TS]

00:41:12   strategies the financial advisor is used [TS]

00:41:14   with clients who have millions of [TS]

00:41:15   dollars and you probably heard about [TS]

00:41:17   them in the press such as the wall [TS]

00:41:19   street journal Bloomberg and techcrunch [TS]

00:41:20   defense service industries embrace [TS]

00:41:23   technology and innovation to the [TS]

00:41:24   creation of automated investing [TS]

00:41:26   platforms like betterment me that you [TS]

00:41:28   keep more of your money with fees that [TS]

00:41:30   are a fraction of what you pay for [TS]

00:41:31   traditional financial services excess [TS]

00:41:34   cash that generator is automatically [TS]

00:41:35   reinvested so every dollar you invest is [TS]

00:41:38   put to work your portfolio is also [TS]

00:41:40   automatically rebalance as necessary now [TS]

00:41:43   investing involves risk but right now [TS]

00:41:45   you can get up to six month no six [TS]

00:41:47   months of no fees by going to betterment [TS]

00:41:49   duck [TS]

00:41:49   / ATP that's betterment calm / ATP [TS]

00:41:54   betterment investing made better [TS]

00:41:56   ah apple has released a new mac book and [TS]

00:42:05   things there's a new design book and [TS]

00:42:09   half of me thinks I'd really don't see a [TS]

00:42:12   problem with it and half of me thinks my [TS]

00:42:15   word have they lost all sense of reality [TS]

00:42:17   and I haven't decided which ones which [TS]

00:42:20   ones which [TS]

00:42:21   did anybody see this coming I didn't [TS]

00:42:23   ride and I think it's a totally [TS]

00:42:25   reasonable and to be expected thing for [TS]

00:42:28   them to do in fact I'm surprised they [TS]

00:42:30   don't do more of it i mean they sell [TS]

00:42:32   they sell shirts with their things on [TS]

00:42:34   them they sell all sorts of merchandise [TS]

00:42:36   but it's Apple that apple stuff on it [TS]

00:42:38   they they love having giant posters of [TS]

00:42:41   all they're you know they're proud of [TS]

00:42:44   their design and this particular thing [TS]

00:42:46   as sort of a capper to johnny is career [TS]

00:42:48   at Apple like it makes total sense i [TS]

00:42:49   don't i don't think it's all that weird [TS]

00:42:51   there are a few things are different [TS]

00:42:52   about I mean first of all like the the [TS]

00:42:54   t-shirts mugs everything you can only [TS]

00:42:56   buy their company store or at their [TS]

00:42:58   conference so it like you can't just go [TS]

00:43:00   into any apple store go online and order [TS]

00:43:02   an apple t-shirt like you like this kind [TS]

00:43:05   of like a limited thing they keep only [TS]

00:43:06   to like their store i'm assuming this [TS]

00:43:08   will be limited to like how long do you [TS]

00:43:10   think they'll sell its gonna be selling [TS]

00:43:11   it for five years unless maybe maybe Tim [TS]

00:43:13   Cook says you know we can keep selling [TS]

00:43:14   the same design book for 10 years and [TS]

00:43:16   there are the lower the price [TS]

00:43:17   sure but like the other stuff is more [TS]

00:43:19   like a slight it's like a gift shop at a [TS]

00:43:20   museum like I went to apple 22 either [TS]

00:43:23   WBC or to their campus and so I got this [TS]

00:43:26   this expensive t-shirt because i went [TS]

00:43:28   there and that's that's a little bit [TS]

00:43:30   more justifiable if you have a problem [TS]

00:43:32   this by the way I don't necessarily have [TS]

00:43:34   a problem with this I i'm still I mostly [TS]

00:43:36   indifferent on it i mostly don't care [TS]

00:43:38   that exists i do think it shows a few [TS]

00:43:41   things worth worth considering you know [TS]

00:43:43   things like possible China of retirement [TS]

00:43:45   overall though it seems poorly timed at [TS]

00:43:49   a time when Apple is being criticized [TS]

00:43:52   for neglecting a lot of their product [TS]

00:43:55   line and their new release is being [TS]

00:43:59   criticized for being especially poor [TS]

00:44:01   value for the money [TS]

00:44:03   and they and they appear to have cut [TS]

00:44:05   Donald prices in an effort to show maybe [TS]

00:44:08   they're not just trying to get a whole [TS]

00:44:09   bunch of extra money from from accessory [TS]

00:44:11   sales so is kind of an unfortunate time [TS]

00:44:15   even if you ignore the election which I [TS]

00:44:16   I I don't think you should [TS]

00:44:18   but even if you ignore that this is kind [TS]

00:44:21   of a weird time for Apple to release an [TS]

00:44:23   incredibly self-congratulatory [TS]

00:44:24   highfalutin to three-hundred-dollar book [TS]

00:44:27   about themselves [TS]

00:44:28   it's just it's a little bit poorly timed [TS]

00:44:30   i think but it even if you don't agree [TS]

00:44:32   with that he stepped aside I think it's [TS]

00:44:34   mostly fine i do think it it is one of [TS]

00:44:37   many signs pointing to Johnny I've is [TS]

00:44:39   probably not that far off departure or [TS]

00:44:42   retirement from apple or middle just [TS]

00:44:45   descend further into the clouds of [TS]

00:44:47   bizarre titles that that mean he doesn't [TS]

00:44:48   actually do any day work but that might [TS]

00:44:51   be the same thing I don't know but I'm [TS]

00:44:54   not sure if I want one or not and i [TS]

00:44:57   might be one of the ideal customers for [TS]

00:44:59   it i buy stupid expensive things all the [TS]

00:45:01   time that I like apple stuff usually a [TS]

00:45:04   lot as i was looking at some of the some [TS]

00:45:07   of the pages that they have on their [TS]

00:45:09   sample site and everything they just [TS]

00:45:11   kind of make me sad because they show [TS]

00:45:13   like like other store the sample show [TS]

00:45:16   the mac mini case and and like the the [TS]

00:45:18   big cutting wheel i'm sorry i don't know [TS]

00:45:20   the terms these various manufacturing [TS]

00:45:21   tools like some giant spiky wheel that [TS]

00:45:24   presumably carves out part of the inside [TS]

00:45:26   of the mac mini case and its really nice [TS]

00:45:28   that you care so much about the mac mini [TS]

00:45:29   that people take this picture but the [TS]

00:45:31   machine that makes this case what about [TS]

00:45:34   the product that's been pretty neglected [TS]

00:45:36   pretty badly or shit shows like it like [TS]

00:45:40   a picture of the of the bottom assembly [TS]

00:45:43   with the lid popping off of the previous [TS]

00:45:46   generation non retina macbook pros like [TS]

00:45:48   that might even be the one exactly and [TS]

00:45:51   it shows that the macbook pro bottom lid [TS]

00:45:53   taken off and you have the removable [TS]

00:45:54   battery and you have the removable [TS]

00:45:56   upgradeable hard drive is like oh yeah I [TS]

00:45:58   remember one laptops for upgradeable and [TS]

00:46:01   easily repaired like Kate I i think this [TS]

00:46:04   book would mostly just me he said [TS]

00:46:06   obviously about like about either either [TS]

00:46:09   computers that Apple has neglected and [TS]

00:46:11   that I that I am sad about like the mac [TS]

00:46:14   pro which i assume is in there [TS]

00:46:16   or it features of computers that are no [TS]

00:46:20   longer present that have been cut [TS]

00:46:22   through the the marks of quote progress [TS]

00:46:24   over the years some of which is real [TS]

00:46:26   progress I'm which is just cutting [TS]

00:46:27   things so I i don't know how i feel [TS]

00:46:30   about this for myself but if other [TS]

00:46:33   people want to have this book and enjoy [TS]

00:46:34   it that's fine really i again i do think [TS]

00:46:37   that releases poorly timed but other [TS]

00:46:40   than other than that I don't really have [TS]

00:46:41   a problem with it i think i'm mostly [TS]

00:46:43   agree but I already have a copy it's [TS]

00:46:45   just called iconic back and i have [TS]

00:46:49   iconic somewhere I think too i have the [TS]

00:46:51   the old apple design book from the [TS]

00:46:53   nineties it's called the let me check [TS]

00:46:56   the island while you're checking out [TS]

00:46:58   there is one a pic i do want to I i do [TS]

00:47:00   want to not forget about though and that [TS]

00:47:02   is so so Steve Jobs his name is all over [TS]

00:47:04   this book they they [TS]

00:47:06   his name's all over the press release [TS]

00:47:07   their very prominently dedicated to him [TS]

00:47:10   and everything I I think enough people [TS]

00:47:12   have said that I don't need to say too [TS]

00:47:14   much about that it's questionable [TS]

00:47:16   whether jobs would have actually [TS]

00:47:18   approved this project and and used it i [TS]

00:47:22   will so that a lot of people keep saying [TS]

00:47:24   that this project was started eight [TS]

00:47:25   years ago and therefore that was back [TS]

00:47:27   when Jobs alive and therefore he must [TS]

00:47:29   have implicitly approved it and that's [TS]

00:47:30   not entirely clear when Johnny idea the [TS]

00:47:34   interview 2w something wallpaper [TS]

00:47:37   whatever I forget I'm sorry [TS]

00:47:38   it mentioned that they started [TS]

00:47:39   collecting the products to photograph 8 [TS]

00:47:42   years ago that doesn't mean they started [TS]

00:47:45   photographing for this specific project [TS]

00:47:46   that was approved by jobs eight years [TS]

00:47:48   ago so I do want to make that clear that [TS]

00:47:50   I don't we don't know that jobs new this [TS]

00:47:52   at all and I think I can't imagine that [TS]

00:47:57   he would have appreciated it but well [TS]

00:47:59   you know it's always risky for protect [TS]

00:48:02   people like us to say well Steve Jobs [TS]

00:48:03   wouldn't have done this wouldn't like [TS]

00:48:04   this because you don't really know the [TS]

00:48:06   guy change his mind a lot and he's not [TS]

00:48:07   here anymore to to refute it so that [TS]

00:48:10   it's not a great thing to rest on but it [TS]

00:48:11   but i do think plastering his name all [TS]

00:48:14   over it is maybe not so we just [TS]

00:48:17   dedicated to him it's not like they're [TS]

00:48:19   trying to like you know build on his [TS]

00:48:22   the image to make to sell this book like [TS]

00:48:24   the book sells that itself on its merits [TS]

00:48:26   dedicated to the memory of their friend [TS]

00:48:29   I think that's fine and if we can say [TS]

00:48:31   one thing about this book it is steve [TS]

00:48:33   jobs would like to have it in his house [TS]

00:48:35   whether or not he thinks it's the [TS]

00:48:36   product apple should sell I guarantee [TS]

00:48:38   you he would love to have this book he [TS]

00:48:40   would sit there on his his couch with [TS]

00:48:42   his bare feet and leave through it and [TS]

00:48:44   look at the great work that he's done [TS]

00:48:46   whether anything is an example should be [TS]

00:48:48   selling is a whole other story where the [TS]

00:48:50   example should have a museum of all the [TS]

00:48:52   old stuff is a hold of the story but he [TS]

00:48:54   so clearly took pride in all the [TS]

00:48:56   products that are in this thing that he [TS]

00:48:58   himself just personally would surely [TS]

00:49:00   love to have the best possible [TS]

00:49:02   photographs on the best possible paper [TS]

00:49:05   made in germany with them you know [TS]

00:49:06   special gilding around the edges and he [TS]

00:49:10   would love this book this you look [TS]

00:49:11   really cool thing to make for your [TS]

00:49:14   employees you know or or to maybe sell [TS]

00:49:17   for a limited time at your campus store [TS]

00:49:19   but to sell it as like a whole product [TS]

00:49:22   that I think it kind of raises the bar [TS]

00:49:24   and raises the level of criticism a bit [TS]

00:49:27   a little bit of an unnecessarily maybe [TS]

00:49:29   but you know because like I think will [TS]

00:49:31   be a lot cooler if this was a thing for [TS]

00:49:34   all the employees Vegas all got for free [TS]

00:49:35   we probably aren't even getting for free [TS]

00:49:36   probably not it's charging two [TS]

00:49:38   particular always work but imagine if [TS]

00:49:40   they gave us to all the employees and [TS]

00:49:42   the handful of Apple collectors who [TS]

00:49:44   really want it would have to like go [TS]

00:49:46   find on eBay or something that will be [TS]

00:49:47   so much cooler if you had one if that [TS]

00:49:49   was the case it i don't know is it just [TS]

00:49:52   seems like that might have been a better [TS]

00:49:53   way to go here [TS]

00:49:53   yeah I tend to agree so I just reached [TS]

00:49:56   out into the bookcase behind me and grab [TS]

00:49:59   my copy of iconic and i started paging [TS]

00:50:02   through it and I landed on page 130 of [TS]

00:50:06   iconic and it has a quote which i will [TS]

00:50:09   read to you if you never change anything [TS]

00:50:12   then what what you can really engineers [TS]

00:50:14   kind of incremental but when you're [TS]

00:50:15   willing to change things then you kind [TS]

00:50:17   of open up a whole new world of design [TS]

00:50:19   this is Big Bob Mansfield at the launch [TS]

00:50:22   of 2012 macbook pro in the accompanying [TS]

00:50:24   picture is a macbook pro that has [TS]

00:50:27   magsafe ethernet firewire Thunderbolt 2 [TS]

00:50:31   USB ports in SD card slot line in ahead [TS]

00:50:34   on Jack just thought that was kind of [TS]

00:50:35   funny that's pretty cool so yeah so when [TS]

00:50:40   you're willing to change things and you [TS]

00:50:41   open up a whole new world of design like [TS]

00:50:42   fewer ports so the book next to me is [TS]

00:50:45   called apple design all one word capital [TS]

00:50:47   capital D colon the work of the Apple [TS]

00:50:50   industrial design group and it's where [TS]

00:50:51   is an older book so it's got the stuff [TS]

00:50:53   from before you guys are Mac users it's [TS]

00:50:55   like mostly the error [TS]

00:50:57   well i can expand the whole range but [TS]

00:50:58   anyway it's definitely earlier than the [TS]

00:51:01   stuff that's in this book and i could [TS]

00:51:03   say i would like to own this book to i [TS]

00:51:06   would totally like this book but i would [TS]

00:51:09   like two or three jobs where at this [TS]

00:51:11   point because and here's what here's the [TS]

00:51:14   thing like it's not three hundred [TS]

00:51:15   dollars for a really super high-quality [TS]

00:51:17   photo book is that big a deal it's just [TS]

00:51:18   that for me personally with you know [TS]

00:51:20   having just bought a monitor and [TS]

00:51:22   playstation 4 pro and also other stuff I [TS]

00:51:26   would spend three hundred dollars in [TS]

00:51:27   this if it was like the making of the [TS]

00:51:29   star wars books that i bought which by [TS]

00:51:30   the way Warren $300 like basically if it [TS]

00:51:33   was lots more words now that I don't [TS]

00:51:35   like the pictures i do i want the [TS]

00:51:36   pictures but if it was the pictures but [TS]

00:51:39   also pages upon pages upon pages of the [TS]

00:51:43   designers including John himself telling [TS]

00:51:45   the story of how they came up with these [TS]

00:51:47   designs in as much detail as they can [TS]

00:51:49   possibly remember again like the making [TS]

00:51:50   of the star wars books which are not [TS]

00:51:52   first-person accounts but it's like some [TS]

00:51:53   research and talk to all the people [TS]

00:51:55   involved and tried to lay out here's how [TS]

00:51:58   each of the three original trilogy star [TS]

00:52:00   wars we just made from conception [TS]

00:52:02   through the production design talking to [TS]

00:52:04   all the people involved in getting [TS]

00:52:05   quotes from them and putting it all [TS]

00:52:06   together [TS]

00:52:07   that's what i would like to read and my [TS]

00:52:09   impression is this book is either [TS]

00:52:10   entirely or at least mostly pictures and [TS]

00:52:13   not so much about Apple's gonna tell you [TS]

00:52:15   you know how the sausage is made [TS]

00:52:17   I mean I'm sure lots of pictures of [TS]

00:52:18   prototypes and you know like things with [TS]

00:52:20   a tool that Marco talk about whatever [TS]

00:52:21   but it's not really like tell us how did [TS]

00:52:24   you come up with this is I would love to [TS]

00:52:25   read that but that is not that simple [TS]

00:52:27   and what I'm saying is basically those [TS]

00:52:28   those words were in this book i would [TS]

00:52:30   pay 300 dollar store in a second but [TS]

00:52:31   just the photos I i have a longing to on [TS]

00:52:35   this book but cannot bring myself to [TS]

00:52:38   part with Randy dollars were quite yet [TS]

00:52:40   maybe maybe I'll break down into how [TS]

00:52:42   long they sell this maybe I'll succumb [TS]

00:52:44   to it at some point because I [TS]

00:52:45   really do want this book i mean i have [TS]

00:52:47   tons of books like this but both range [TS]

00:52:49   of dollars that stuff and no i don't [TS]

00:52:51   want the small one because come on it's [TS]

00:52:52   nothing why are there two sizes like [TS]

00:52:54   that's such a good thing just making [TS]

00:52:56   sure they should have called the big 12 [TS]

00:52:58   plus some people want a larger obviously [TS]

00:53:00   the big one is huge i like the big 1i [TS]

00:53:03   think I'm think about if I had that in [TS]

00:53:04   my house how the hell would I even fit [TS]

00:53:05   on my shelves i don't think i even have [TS]

00:53:07   any shelves at the making of star wars [TS]

00:53:08   books are a little bit too big for my [TS]

00:53:09   shelves too but you know it's photos [TS]

00:53:11   come on you gotta get the big yeah i [TS]

00:53:13   just gotta say this iconic book I'd [TS]

00:53:16   forgotten page through a long time man [TS]

00:53:18   is this a nice book it really honestly [TS]

00:53:20   is and its cheapness like 50 bucks on [TS]

00:53:23   amazon right now it's definitely worth [TS]

00:53:25   it i wonder if i can get the business [TS]

00:53:26   rep discount ok fifty percent of you [TS]

00:53:30   threw a book at my apple ibook is right [TS]

00:53:34   next to the art of kiki's delivery [TS]

00:53:35   service the complete works of Larry a [TS]

00:53:37   lot more but also i have a higher or [TS]

00:53:41   astoria legend of zelda book all of [TS]

00:53:43   which are about the same size big kind [TS]

00:53:45   of glossy photo book things but none of [TS]

00:53:47   which costs three hundred dollars now I [TS]

00:53:49   mean it's you know people who know more [TS]

00:53:51   about art books are end you know as you [TS]

00:53:53   said John like the I don't think it's [TS]

00:53:55   outrageously priced for what it is but [TS]

00:53:58   it certainly doesn't contribute it [TS]

00:54:00   certainly doesn't help the the recent or [TS]

00:54:03   possibly forever reputation of apple for [TS]

00:54:06   this like elitist company making [TS]

00:54:08   expensive things that only for rich [TS]

00:54:10   people like that's this doesn't really [TS]

00:54:12   help that image at all in this really i [TS]

00:54:15   don't know again this is not a big deal [TS]

00:54:17   i don't feel that strongly about this [TS]

00:54:18   book either way I might even buy one who [TS]

00:54:20   knows but i do think it was a little [TS]

00:54:23   poorly timed for for image sake I think [TS]

00:54:25   and see the weird thing about this book [TS]

00:54:27   is its i like the idea that Apple itself [TS]

00:54:31   is the one doing it because it's great [TS]

00:54:33   as iconic is the apples line books or [TS]

00:54:35   whatever Apple presumably I mean you [TS]

00:54:39   would think they would have access to [TS]

00:54:40   all the stuff apparently they didn't [TS]

00:54:41   have to go out and buy it or whatever [TS]

00:54:43   but either way like they was really good [TS]

00:54:47   at taking pictures of its products they [TS]

00:54:48   have the most experience of anybody in [TS]

00:54:50   the entire world taking pictures of [TS]

00:54:51   apple products because that's what they [TS]

00:54:53   do and they do it really really well and [TS]

00:54:55   because they're all obsessive detailed [TS]

00:54:57   people about like the printing and the [TS]

00:54:59   color in the paper I bet it's a really [TS]

00:55:01   nice book right but the one thing the [TS]

00:55:05   Apple can bring to this book above and [TS]

00:55:08   beyond those two things that i just [TS]

00:55:10   mentioned that nobody else can [TS]

00:55:13   is that they have the best access to the [TS]

00:55:15   people who were involved in making me [TS]

00:55:17   some of those people may be gone all [TS]

00:55:18   those supposedly there's very little [TS]

00:55:19   turnover and Johnny absolutely design [TS]

00:55:21   group there that's the value they can [TS]

00:55:24   bring this was the whole I know you're [TS]

00:55:25   getting a market like apples making a [TS]

00:55:27   book about how great their right there [TS]

00:55:28   making a book about themselves and [TS]

00:55:29   saying we are awesome or just look at [TS]

00:55:31   all these cool things that we made which [TS]

00:55:32   i guess is ok but if you want a blunt [TS]

00:55:34   that it's like don't just make it look [TS]

00:55:36   at these awesome things that we made [TS]

00:55:37   bring the value that only you have tell [TS]

00:55:39   us the stories people who worked on [TS]

00:55:41   these products [TS]

00:55:42   tell us about how you made them because [TS]

00:55:44   no one else can tell us how they made [TS]

00:55:45   them other people can take pictures of [TS]

00:55:47   them other people can make a big glossy [TS]

00:55:48   photo book other people can probably [TS]

00:55:50   find the right kind of paper and do the [TS]

00:55:52   cool printing and do all the things but [TS]

00:55:54   nobody but you guys can tell us the [TS]

00:55:57   story of how these products are made and [TS]

00:55:58   they're not doing that so they're like [TS]

00:55:59   saying how great they are but like yeah [TS]

00:56:02   I don't want to tell you too much about [TS]

00:56:03   it just look at the stuff we're pretty [TS]

00:56:04   great huh don't nevermind that was made [TS]

00:56:06   and that's that definitely shades more [TS]

00:56:09   into the event that makes it less [TS]

00:56:11   forgivable as an act of you know [TS]

00:56:13   self-congratulations because if you are [TS]

00:56:16   describing how you did it [TS]

00:56:17   you're not just congratulating yourself [TS]

00:56:18   even if the whole book is like we had [TS]

00:56:20   heart problems then we solve them [TS]

00:56:21   because you're super smart you're you're [TS]

00:56:23   passing on your knowledge your telling [TS]

00:56:25   the rest of the world learn from our [TS]

00:56:27   lessons which you can still do with a [TS]

00:56:29   lot of ego and you know back padding but [TS]

00:56:32   i think that would offset the look how [TS]

00:56:35   great we are angle of it and and like [TS]

00:56:38   you said and I can only goes like and [TS]

00:56:40   like we talked about with the actual the [TS]

00:56:41   the new macbook pros the past several [TS]

00:56:44   shows it's not so much the thing itself [TS]

00:56:46   it's the context into which is [TS]

00:56:47   introduced and so like Marcus at the [TS]

00:56:49   timing is bad and at this point almost [TS]

00:56:52   anything you introduced into the context [TS]

00:56:54   of a certain set of grumpy Apple fans is [TS]

00:56:57   going to be looked upon with the you [TS]

00:57:00   know a very critical eye and people are [TS]

00:57:04   generally in a bad mood for reasons that [TS]

00:57:05   are made some which may be outside [TS]

00:57:07   apples control whatever like if they've [TS]

00:57:09   been if they've been building towards [TS]

00:57:11   right years [TS]

00:57:12   fine whatever release it like a holiday [TS]

00:57:14   season it's a good gift idea for the [TS]

00:57:16   Apple nerd in your life you know like it [TS]

00:57:18   that I don't fault them i don't think [TS]

00:57:21   it's that big a deal [TS]

00:57:22   I just wish it wasn't three dollars [TS]

00:57:24   because I really want this book I you [TS]

00:57:26   know and one thing like I think you [TS]

00:57:28   nailed it about like that you know part [TS]

00:57:30   of this number of people the wrong way [TS]

00:57:31   is the fact that there is there are no [TS]

00:57:33   no words or as you said like you know [TS]

00:57:35   that they have access to the people they [TS]

00:57:38   could have added the human more human [TS]

00:57:40   function and it seems like they mean we [TS]

00:57:42   haven't read the book yet but from the [TS]

00:57:44   few sample pages we've seen it really [TS]

00:57:46   does seem like they didn't you know [TS]

00:57:47   there's no words in it and i think if i [TS]

00:57:50   had to summarize I i guess the the main [TS]

00:57:55   disappoint when I have with apple [TS]

00:57:57   recently which i think a lot of people [TS]

00:57:59   feel but might not have put into words [TS]

00:58:01   is that it seems to just lack humanity [TS]

00:58:04   recently like it and I don't like this [TS]

00:58:08   might be a Steve too Tim thing i don't [TS]

00:58:10   know i haven't given a ton of thought to [TS]

00:58:12   this year it's hard to put into words [TS]

00:58:13   but you know Steve even though we knew [TS]

00:58:17   he could be like cold and ruthless to [TS]

00:58:20   people when he had to be his public [TS]

00:58:22   persona which which really did reflect [TS]

00:58:24   upon the whole company you know to the [TS]

00:58:26   public was really quite warm and and [TS]

00:58:29   human and we end with with the [TS]

00:58:32   transition to Tim Cook sample and and [TS]

00:58:35   jony ive's apple which is you know [TS]

00:58:36   that's really this is what this is these [TS]

00:58:38   days [TS]

00:58:38   Apple that the public image that we get [TS]

00:58:41   even though most of the same people are [TS]

00:58:43   still there but the public image that is [TS]

00:58:45   shown to us what gets out there's a lot [TS]

00:58:48   more cold and they're like the humanity [TS]

00:58:51   has been stripped out of it and as and I [TS]

00:58:53   think part of what bug people about [TS]

00:58:55   things like removing the startup chime [TS]

00:58:56   on a new macbook pros and removing the [TS]

00:58:58   lineup logo on the back is like that's a [TS]

00:59:01   little bit more of this humanity to just [TS]

00:59:02   being pulled out of the products and and [TS]

00:59:05   we don't see warmth and humanity as much [TS]

00:59:09   as we used to anymore you know a promo [TS]

00:59:11   video showing what people are doing with [TS]

00:59:13   the product is different its you think [TS]

00:59:14   its humanity [TS]

00:59:15   I I do i do think its humanity i think [TS]

00:59:18   we do i would say you don't think whimsy [TS]

00:59:20   is a better word because the wind is a [TS]

00:59:22   stronger case for whimsy because [TS]

00:59:23   humanity I think of like to [TS]

00:59:25   Cook is much more into you know the the [TS]

00:59:28   human aspects are social aspects of both [TS]

00:59:32   the products and the company then Steve [TS]

00:59:34   Jobs ever was and tim cook in the Tim [TS]

00:59:37   Cook era he's the one who's constantly [TS]

00:59:38   starting presentations with videos about [TS]

00:59:40   accessibility and people who are being [TS]

00:59:44   you know he's a human story of being [TS]

00:59:45   empowered by apple products i would call [TS]

00:59:48   that human too but whimsical is you know [TS]

00:59:51   we're like it is dorky maybe hit you [TS]

00:59:56   know it wimzie's just like that the [TS]

00:59:57   little happy mac and and and the child [TS]

00:59:57   little happy mac and and and the child [TS]

01:00:00   and then a little poof animation stuff [TS]

01:00:01   silly things like that seem to not be [TS]

01:00:04   too Jony Ive's taste because he's not [TS]

01:00:08   into the proof right he's not into the [TS]

01:00:10   this happy Mac the smile and the time [TS]

01:00:13   he's into the the iphone that doesn't [TS]

01:00:15   even have a logo that you can see when [TS]

01:00:16   you look at it right and Tim Cook is [TS]

01:00:19   deferring to drive in that way so I [TS]

01:00:20   think you're right to refer to the same [TS]

01:00:22   cook / Jony ive apple so there is [TS]

01:00:24   definitely less sense of whimsy and [TS]

01:00:27   whimsy can be seen as warmth in his [TS]

01:00:29   design is that it can be thought of as [TS]

01:00:30   cold but I think Tim Cook's apple and [TS]

01:00:32   Tim Duncan specific specifically are all [TS]

01:00:35   about humanity just not about darkness [TS]

01:00:39   and whimsy [TS]

01:00:40   yeah it's I'm not again i'm not saying [TS]

01:00:42   that like the company like because we [TS]

01:00:44   know the same people are mostly they're [TS]

01:00:46   right especially look at the upper [TS]

01:00:47   levels not a lot of change their they [TS]

01:00:49   need a week we know that they do good [TS]

01:00:51   these are good people and they do good [TS]

01:00:54   things for the world but you did doesn't [TS]

01:00:57   come across it [TS]

01:00:58   the the amount of warmth and and you [TS]

01:01:01   know and maybe humanity might be exactly [TS]

01:01:03   what I do think whimsies partner but I [TS]

01:01:04   don't think whimsy covers all of what [TS]

01:01:06   I'm what I'm missing [TS]

01:01:07   well what about the ads like when they [TS]

01:01:09   show their a lot of their recent ads [TS]

01:01:11   have been all about showing people using [TS]

01:01:13   the product remember the one with like [TS]

01:01:14   the kid with his nose buried in his [TS]

01:01:15   phone during the holidays Christmas [TS]

01:01:18   thing at the end he's made the video of [TS]

01:01:19   them making this stuff like or just like [TS]

01:01:21   the people who are like with your watch [TS]

01:01:22   you get up as early in the morning it's [TS]

01:01:24   still dark calculates the sneakers to [TS]

01:01:25   put on your watch is not running or [TS]

01:01:27   you're running through the rain with [TS]

01:01:28   your now water-resistant phone like [TS]

01:01:30   they're adds even more than they used to [TS]

01:01:32   be [TS]

01:01:33   had been less about glorifying the [TS]

01:01:34   objects is beautiful totems of [TS]

01:01:36   technology as like look how smooth and [TS]

01:01:38   sleek is which they still doing like the [TS]

01:01:39   presentations to hospital on television [TS]

01:01:41   it's all about the people it's all about [TS]

01:01:44   I am a runner i like to take photographs [TS]

01:01:46   i'm on a family vacation and you know [TS]

01:01:48   come by this device in your kid will be [TS]

01:01:50   it will look like a socket into really [TS]

01:01:52   he will be loving wonderful creative [TS]

01:01:54   child which is false advertising but [TS]

01:01:56   anyway I'm here to suck and won't [TS]

01:02:00   actually make a video for you just [TS]

01:02:02   texting his friends although not that [TS]

01:02:04   like we add seem to be focusing on again [TS]

01:02:06   the humanity of uh like that it's not [TS]

01:02:10   about the product [TS]

01:02:11   about the people and what the products [TS]

01:02:12   enable the people to do so and again [TS]

01:02:14   that's you know Apple choose what kind [TS]

01:02:16   of adds an extra the advertising company [TS]

01:02:17   makes them but Apple can give them [TS]

01:02:19   direction and it is less like that you [TS]

01:02:22   know in the steve jobs are you had a [TS]

01:02:24   series of commercials that were all [TS]

01:02:25   about showing you the card the hardware [TS]

01:02:27   like the lifesavers imax flying across [TS]

01:02:28   the screen look they're shiny and color [TS]

01:02:30   and look at the on the imac SE came out [TS]

01:02:33   it's all sleep in graphite he liked [TS]

01:02:35   those were more obsessed obsessed with [TS]

01:02:37   the objects because that was all about [TS]

01:02:39   like hey hardware can be fashioned and [TS]

01:02:41   look at these things and I think it [TS]

01:02:43   started to shift with the ipod where was [TS]

01:02:45   like yeah there's silhouettes dancing [TS]

01:02:47   and you can see the ipod with the white [TS]

01:02:48   cord but it's all about people dancing [TS]

01:02:49   and music and at this point they're [TS]

01:02:51   selling phones by showing you people [TS]

01:02:54   jogging right so it is so far from i [TS]

01:02:56   think it is definitely a very human [TS]

01:02:58   approach but again i would say that the [TS]

01:03:02   product designs themselves and what [TS]

01:03:06   things the company decides to do [TS]

01:03:07   definitely seem less whimsical and less [TS]

01:03:10   dorky and I could see that is being said [TS]

01:03:12   more cold unless more the ads you know [TS]

01:03:14   you're right the a defined but their ads [TS]

01:03:16   their commercials you know you know I [TS]

01:03:18   i'm referring to mostly the products and [TS]

01:03:21   then some also of the presentations you [TS]

01:03:24   know by the actual humans on stage at [TS]

01:03:27   the events you know so again it's it's [TS]

01:03:30   hard to to not make this about Steve [TS]

01:03:32   because steve was really good at at [TS]

01:03:34   really being you know personable up [TS]

01:03:37   there onstage and whether it was [TS]

01:03:38   rehearsed or or fake or real or whatever [TS]

01:03:41   I don't know it didn't matter its see it [TS]

01:03:43   really did come across as genuine and [TS]

01:03:45   real and and warm and that's what I [TS]

01:03:48   missed both onstage I don't care what [TS]

01:03:50   the videos the the use of more videos [TS]

01:03:52   actually to me feels colder i feels more [TS]

01:03:55   artificial but you know that's that's [TS]

01:03:57   beside the point for now at all i'm [TS]

01:04:00   saying is I i miss this level of warmth [TS]

01:04:03   that that we used to get from them in [TS]

01:04:06   these presentations and then I think [TS]

01:04:07   that the whimsy and the product is part [TS]

01:04:09   of that I you know that showed the [TS]

01:04:11   product and it seems like modern apple [TS]

01:04:14   is all about really editing that out as [TS]

01:04:16   as part of a march towards quote [TS]

01:04:19   simplifying or quote progress but but I [TS]

01:04:22   we're losing a lot of that and where we [TS]

01:04:24   don't seem to be gaining any in many [TS]

01:04:26   areas anymore it seems like we've been [TS]

01:04:28   coming just moved on past that and just [TS]

01:04:30   now it's just a lot more like cold and [TS]

01:04:33   and almost robotic so this book coming [TS]

01:04:35   out with all pictures of Johnny I'd [TS]

01:04:39   robotic tools in stark white background [TS]

01:04:42   with no words i think is kind of like a [TS]

01:04:45   culmination of of that cold process and [TS]

01:04:49   at that's what kind of rubs me the wrong [TS]

01:04:50   way about about the book and about apple [TS]

01:04:53   today if I had to summarize it down and [TS]

01:04:55   again i I'm sorry if I'm not expressing [TS]

01:04:57   this well this is really still a very [TS]

01:05:00   you know squishy thought in my head but [TS]

01:05:02   just I'm trying to put into feel it put [TS]

01:05:04   into words a complex feeling lemon [TS]

01:05:07   filling over a while but I just miss [TS]

01:05:10   that warmth that we used to that we used [TS]

01:05:12   to get whether it was real or not from [TS]

01:05:14   from both Steve and the products that I [TS]

01:05:16   think we're really missing a lot of that [TS]

01:05:17   recently so if you were to get this book [TS]

01:05:20   and it was chronological which i'm not [TS]

01:05:21   sure that is but if it is chronological [TS]

01:05:23   you could flip through it and watch the [TS]

01:05:25   whimsy slowly draining out of the [TS]

01:05:27   products that you started with tangerine [TS]

01:05:29   imax and all these brightly colored [TS]

01:05:32   things that it like you know the the [TS]

01:05:34   toilet but see I books and all these [TS]

01:05:37   things that just look so exciting and [TS]

01:05:40   dr. Susie and slowly but surely [TS]

01:05:42   everything turned silver and glass and [TS]

01:05:44   uniform and not shiny not mad just in [TS]

01:05:49   between e and you know just it smooths [TS]

01:05:52   out which I you know I like both those [TS]

01:05:55   athletics is why I think like this book [TS]

01:05:57   is this book highlights some of Apple [TS]

01:05:59   best work in terms of industrial design [TS]

01:06:01   because it does include all away from [TS]

01:06:04   you know the the the the vibrancy of the [TS]

01:06:08   original imax and even like the one with [TS]

01:06:11   the big neck and all the stuff all way [TS]

01:06:13   up to the modern era of everything being [TS]

01:06:16   sleek and clean those are both great [TS]

01:06:18   aesthetics but chronologically speaking [TS]

01:06:20   you know you can see the trend i could [TS]

01:06:23   read the book backwards and make myself [TS]

01:06:24   feel really happy [TS]

01:06:26   benjamin button it but you know I [TS]

01:06:29   I think I'm i agree with you Marco I I [TS]

01:06:32   just can't shake this feeling that Apple [TS]

01:06:35   is reluctantly moving closer and closer [TS]

01:06:38   to being the IBM that they fought so [TS]

01:06:42   hard against when when you and I were [TS]

01:06:44   like a really little [TS]

01:06:46   let's not go crazy here well no I don't [TS]

01:06:48   think they're there but if you look at [TS]

01:06:52   the IBM of the early to mid eighties [TS]

01:06:55   probably ladies it was not boring but it [TS]

01:06:59   certainly did not have whimsy and I [TS]

01:07:02   would not say that Apple's products [TS]

01:07:03   they're boring many such an imagination [TS]

01:07:04   but i agree that they've lost some of [TS]

01:07:07   that and I actually think humanity is a [TS]

01:07:10   is a good word for it if a bit overblown [TS]

01:07:13   but I can't come up with a better one [TS]

01:07:15   and i think i like humanity more than [TS]

01:07:17   wednesday but anyway it just doesn't [TS]

01:07:19   feel as happy go lucky as they used to [TS]

01:07:23   and I think part of that is being is is [TS]

01:07:25   no longer being the underdog is now [TS]

01:07:27   being king of the hill which maybe [TS]

01:07:29   that's our perception [TS]

01:07:31   maybe it's that because we perceive them [TS]

01:07:34   as king of the hill we perceive them is [TS]

01:07:35   boring and they're anything but but i [TS]

01:07:38   don't know i don't i don't think that's [TS]

01:07:39   the case in and i agree with you and [TS]

01:07:41   it's funny because on the one side I i [TS]

01:07:43   love the look of the new macbook pro at [TS]

01:07:45   least in in photographs i haven't seen [TS]

01:07:46   one in person yet but in in photographs [TS]

01:07:48   it looks phenomenal [TS]

01:07:49   I i love it i think it looks really [TS]

01:07:52   great and I think that's in part because [TS]

01:07:53   you know a very black aesthetic appeals [TS]

01:07:56   to me but yet I i miss the fun of all [TS]

01:08:01   these different colored imax you know it [TS]

01:08:03   the computers that is all running around [TS]

01:08:05   campus when I was in school in the early [TS]

01:08:07   two thousands they just looked fun and I [TS]

01:08:09   wouldn't say a new macbook pro looks fun [TS]

01:08:11   it looks really damn good it looks more [TS]

01:08:14   aesthetically good I'd say than perhaps [TS]

01:08:17   any other laptop on the market today and [TS]

01:08:20   in fact I've said before and I'll say [TS]

01:08:21   again this iphone 7 holding in my hands [TS]

01:08:24   right now that this matte black iphone 7 [TS]

01:08:27   i think is the best-looking iphone I've [TS]

01:08:29   seen yet however i wouldn't say it looks [TS]

01:08:33   fun despite it looking really good and i [TS]

01:08:35   miss that kind of fine ass [TS]

01:08:37   fact yeah and this and i'm not saying [TS]

01:08:39   the products are bad or like the [TS]

01:08:42   products are in many ways better than [TS]

01:08:44   ever now you know like by most measures [TS]

01:08:47   most of the products are better than [TS]

01:08:50   ever [TS]

01:08:50   they're still good products in many ways [TS]

01:08:53   they're still great products but but [TS]

01:08:55   again just like it's this feeling that [TS]

01:08:57   I'm missing that I'd that we used to [TS]

01:08:59   have here and maybe I'm just old and [TS]

01:09:02   jaded and boring i I don't know maybe [TS]

01:09:04   I'm just mad with the mac pro still I [TS]

01:09:05   don't know but but this I I just feel [TS]

01:09:08   like I'm missing this feeling I'm not [TS]

01:09:10   well I am old and jaded but I'm not [TS]

01:09:12   jaded about mac pro specifically an area [TS]

01:09:14   and I'm not jaded at about the macbook [TS]

01:09:17   pro specifically and I i do largely [TS]

01:09:19   agree with you that it just it's not as [TS]

01:09:22   fun as it once was and again maybe is [TS]

01:09:24   that just by virtue of them being no [TS]

01:09:27   longer the underdog so so you know that [TS]

01:09:29   it's fun to root for the underdog it's [TS]

01:09:31   not fun to root for the king of the hill [TS]

01:09:32   so maybe it's misplace maybe the problem [TS]

01:09:35   is us but but i agree with you [TS]

01:09:37   nevertheless I think the design trend [TS]

01:09:39   that is described from the the more [TS]

01:09:42   whimsical computers that varied more [TS]

01:09:44   widely in shape and color and texture [TS]

01:09:46   and everything about them to the current [TS]

01:09:48   design is a natural consequence of the [TS]

01:09:50   advance of the technology because as we [TS]

01:09:54   acquire the technology to to to make the [TS]

01:09:56   products that we have now that you know [TS]

01:09:58   in the case of I devices are essentially [TS]

01:09:59   rectangles that are screens that get [TS]

01:10:02   increasingly thin and for the case of [TS]

01:10:03   laptops a screen rectangle and then a [TS]

01:10:06   rectangle with the keyboard an [TS]

01:10:08   increasingly large trackpad your options [TS]

01:10:10   for industrial design uh start to be in [TS]

01:10:14   conflict with the advances that you're [TS]

01:10:16   you know the reaping the benefits of [TS]

01:10:17   actually be able to make it smaller like [TS]

01:10:19   if you look at the size of the the [TS]

01:10:21   plastic that surrounds the screen on the [TS]

01:10:23   toilet seat imax it is its vast right [TS]

01:10:27   and that allows you to make this [TS]

01:10:28   cool-looking strange oblong kind of [TS]

01:10:30   person like design and everything like [TS]

01:10:32   gives you the room to make those big [TS]

01:10:34   scoops and colors and contrast but there [TS]

01:10:37   is no there's no more room for that in a [TS]

01:10:39   world where it's basically a screen with [TS]

01:10:41   the margin slowly shrinking around it or [TS]

01:10:43   like the laptops is you know getting [TS]

01:10:45   thinner and thinner and smaller and [TS]

01:10:46   tighter and tighter and you know why [TS]

01:10:48   fight that the correct direction is [TS]

01:10:50   aesthetically [TS]

01:10:51   meeting Tuesday embrace that and embrace [TS]

01:10:54   anesthetic that can work with [TS]

01:10:56   increasingly smelt devices and that is [TS]

01:11:01   get another reason to add to the list of [TS]

01:11:03   why the mac pro be great because the mac [TS]

01:11:05   pro it does not have a screen on it [TS]

01:11:07   you do have the freedom to make it you [TS]

01:11:09   they can make it shaped like a soccer [TS]

01:11:10   ball can be shaped like a spiral [TS]

01:11:12   apparently can be shaped like garbage [TS]

01:11:13   can be shaped like a cheese grater it [TS]

01:11:16   actually gives them the most options in [TS]

01:11:19   terms of industrial design because there [TS]

01:11:20   are no longer constrained by the fact [TS]

01:11:22   that you have to carry it and that [TS]

01:11:23   making it smaller and thinner and [TS]

01:11:25   lighter is such a benefit in the long [TS]

01:11:26   run that they can't afford to put a [TS]

01:11:28   giant plastic handle on it and a huge [TS]

01:11:29   three inch border around the entire [TS]

01:11:31   screen because that's ridiculous like no [TS]

01:11:32   one wants that anymore its it looks old [TS]

01:11:34   and it is old and it's bad but when it [TS]

01:11:36   says on your desk or under your desk a [TS]

01:11:38   lot more options open up and so it's [TS]

01:11:40   just another reason that it would be a [TS]

01:11:41   shame if they totally gave up that form [TS]

01:11:44   factor or if they said even that form [TS]

01:11:46   factor you wanted to be its small and [TS]

01:11:48   and minimal as possible and so that you [TS]

01:11:50   get the current mac mini in the apple TV [TS]

01:11:51   which are just the most you know it's [TS]

01:11:53   and it's not appropriate I think for [TS]

01:11:55   those things to be only the apple TV [TS]

01:11:57   because I should be boring cuz you don't [TS]

01:11:58   even see it but the mac mini you have a [TS]

01:12:00   little bit more fun with that maybe put [TS]

01:12:02   some events and strikes on and make it [TS]

01:12:04   look like a Ferrari I don't know there [TS]

01:12:06   was no reason for it to be as boring as [TS]

01:12:07   it is but there are reasons for the [TS]

01:12:09   phone to be as boring as it is and for [TS]

01:12:11   the laptop speed not as boring like for [TS]

01:12:13   them to look like a do I think they're [TS]

01:12:14   very good reason to do that I think have [TS]

01:12:16   to hit that they had tried to keep the [TS]

01:12:17   old aesthetic while going along with the [TS]

01:12:20   market technology that allows you to [TS]

01:12:21   make it thinner and lighter it would be [TS]

01:12:23   a bad tension between those two things [TS]

01:12:25   you can't make a modern laptop that [TS]

01:12:28   looks like the toilet seat I book you [TS]

01:12:29   just can't be would youwould is not the [TS]

01:12:31   right design approach back then it was [TS]

01:12:33   now it's not now you can take the [TS]

01:12:34   current ones and make them in candy [TS]

01:12:37   apple red with the same form factor make [TS]

01:12:39   it like polish glossy candy apple red [TS]

01:12:41   and that would be fun but it's still you [TS]

01:12:44   know like color and texture is basically [TS]

01:12:46   all they have left to play with because [TS]

01:12:48   shape-wise it's not like they're going [TS]

01:12:50   to be adding friends and strikes you [TS]

01:12:52   know tailfins on the next iPad pro or [TS]

01:12:54   whatever [TS]

01:12:55   yeah i agree like why couldn't we have [TS]

01:12:58   all the colors of the 5c on the seven [TS]

01:13:02   you know because those were fun I [TS]

01:13:04   thought [TS]

01:13:04   in and I think they pee they appeal to a [TS]

01:13:07   lot of people that perhaps weren't is [TS]

01:13:08   you know technically minded in terms of [TS]

01:13:11   of stats and like having to have the [TS]

01:13:13   latest and greatest i still see 5 c's [TS]

01:13:16   floating around from time to time so why [TS]

01:13:17   not have that color range on the [TS]

01:13:19   top-of-the-line phone [TS]

01:13:21   well because it's not proper I mean I [TS]

01:13:23   don't know I just I do kind of Miss that [TS]

01:13:24   even though even though the one side I [TS]

01:13:27   wouldn't ever pick any of those I guess [TS]

01:13:30   this is my halo car like I don't really [TS]

01:13:31   see the need for mac pro and I'm not [TS]

01:13:33   trying to open up that conversation [TS]

01:13:34   again but to me I don't see the need for [TS]

01:13:36   a mac pro but i do like I would notice a [TS]

01:13:40   array of colors on the iphone 7 and be [TS]

01:13:44   pleased that they exist even though [TS]

01:13:45   there was no freaking way I would choose [TS]

01:13:47   anything but matt black or maybe [TS]

01:13:49   jet-black my god like the negative [TS]

01:13:50   robotic or again it's like you know real [TS]

01:13:52   life you see phones that are all sorts [TS]

01:13:54   of colors that's just not the color of [TS]

01:13:55   the phone is the color of people's cases [TS]

01:13:56   IC phone cans [TS]

01:13:58   this is a huge range of colors textures [TS]

01:14:00   sizes features ones that you put your [TS]

01:14:02   credit card into ones that have a place [TS]

01:14:03   for a stylist to go into like the huge [TS]

01:14:05   things with mirrors on the back of them [TS]

01:14:06   they just think clamshell ones ones with [TS]

01:14:09   the covers not just a huge range but [TS]

01:14:12   that's the Apple not doing any of that [TS]

01:14:13   they're just giving you think about it [TS]

01:14:15   for this episode is sponsored by [TS]

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01:14:55   audiobooks bring books to life maybe [TS]

01:14:57   they were ready by the author's [TS]

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01:15:35   ATP thanks to audible for sponsoring our [TS]

01:15:37   show we've been putting off for a long [TS]

01:15:41   time talking about this Microsoft [TS]

01:15:45   Surface studio and I think that we [TS]

01:15:49   should probably talk about the Nintendo [TS]

01:15:50   switch we don't actually have to do that [TS]

01:15:54   but I couldn't sell it we should return [TS]

01:15:56   to the surface to do first in fact it's [TS]

01:15:58   been it's been so long since the service [TS]

01:16:01   studio event whatever that was that I [TS]

01:16:03   think we need the chief summarizer and [TS]

01:16:05   chips to remind everyone what the hell [TS]

01:16:06   the Microsoft Surface video is hosted at [TS]

01:16:09   the to summarize in chief doesn't [TS]

01:16:10   remember any more like I can get as so [TS]

01:16:14   this was i don't recall exactly what it [TS]

01:16:16   was but it was a few weeks ago that [TS]

01:16:18   microsoft had some sort of product demo [TS]

01:16:22   where they debuted the surface studio [TS]

01:16:26   which at first appear to be an imac in [TS]

01:16:32   many ways it just seemed like an imac an [TS]

01:16:34   imac but well I guess I should say my [TS]

01:16:36   mac mac mini right because it's the [TS]

01:16:39   screen of an imac it appeared it's 28 [TS]

01:16:42   inches and this in the computer bits are [TS]

01:16:46   in a base that looks very much like a [TS]

01:16:49   mac mini it's all black and aluminum or [TS]

01:16:52   at least aluminum colored and it all [TS]

01:16:54   looks very snazzy and i don't mean that [TS]

01:16:55   sarcastically really honestly does look [TS]

01:16:57   good and at first it was like okay great [TS]

01:17:00   you're doing i'm a clue but then they [TS]

01:17:02   mention that [TS]

01:17:03   oh this is a touchscreen a 28 inch [TS]

01:17:05   touchscreen and suddenly people start to [TS]

01:17:07   go [TS]

01:17:08   mm okay tell me more I and then the real [TS]

01:17:13   party trick happened which was microsoft [TS]

01:17:16   explained why there are two arms going [TS]

01:17:18   from the mac mini to the imac [TS]

01:17:20   and those arms allow you from what they [TS]

01:17:23   showed allow you to very effortlessly [TS]

01:17:26   turn this imac into kind of an easel so [TS]

01:17:31   it's a day very very shallow angle such [TS]

01:17:34   that you could use it as though it's a [TS]

01:17:35   writing surface and it has with it their [TS]

01:17:38   equivalent of an apple pencil and even [TS]

01:17:41   more importantly it has or maybe not [TS]

01:17:44   more importantly but differently [TS]

01:17:45   it also has a surface dial and so what [TS]

01:17:49   this is is a little puck sort of thing [TS]

01:17:52   it's actually not on that dissimilar [TS]

01:17:54   from the park mouse that everyone hated [TS]

01:17:56   but much taller and you can sit that on [TS]

01:17:58   your desk and you can spin it in order [TS]

01:18:00   to manually change volume or get [TS]

01:18:02   different you know tools as you're using [TS]

01:18:05   the pen but where it gets even cooler [TS]

01:18:07   still and you have to understand that [TS]

01:18:09   this hinge that they have genuinely is [TS]

01:18:11   is really need it looks really really [TS]

01:18:13   clever but what's cooler still about the [TS]

01:18:15   surface style this park is that you can [TS]

01:18:17   drop this thing right on the display and [TS]

01:18:19   the display recognizes that it's there [TS]

01:18:22   and where it is and allows you to treat [TS]

01:18:24   that is another control surface so in in [TS]

01:18:28   the way that the naked robotic core is [TS]

01:18:31   the like most pure realization of what [TS]

01:18:33   what somebody would want for a computing [TS]

01:18:35   device you know that that was what Apple [TS]

01:18:37   would want for an iphone i think not [TS]

01:18:40   that this is a naked robotic or but I [TS]

01:18:41   feel like this is the most pure [TS]

01:18:43   realization of what Microsoft hopes for [TS]

01:18:46   for this world that to me is a little [TS]

01:18:50   bizarro where you have a touch-based or [TS]

01:18:53   touch permitted if nothing else desktop [TS]

01:18:56   OS so Microsoft strategy for many years [TS]

01:19:00   now with its windows thing especially as [TS]

01:19:02   the windows phone stuff has been fading [TS]

01:19:04   has been to have a single OS for all [TS]

01:19:08   their platforms and because that single [TS]

01:19:09   OS as part of its family tree is phones [TS]

01:19:13   and tablet devices that of course it [TS]

01:19:15   supports touch which is why you can you [TS]

01:19:17   touch in windows with you know windows 8 [TS]

01:19:19   that started and there the windows 10 [TS]

01:19:21   now and so they've been changing windows [TS]

01:19:23   to be an interface that you can use with [TS]

01:19:26   the mouse and keyboard you can use with [TS]

01:19:27   a pen you can use with your fingers and [TS]

01:19:29   I've been doing this for a long time [TS]

01:19:30   and to varying results i know some [TS]

01:19:33   people have the microsoft surface tablet [TS]

01:19:35   product that is basically like you can [TS]

01:19:37   use like a pc with a keyboard attached [TS]

01:19:38   to because it's got a hinge thing you [TS]

01:19:39   can use it kind of like a tablet if [TS]

01:19:41   you're using like a laptop you can also [TS]

01:19:42   just poke your finger at the screen [TS]

01:19:44   which I'm sure we've all seen this many [TS]

01:19:46   people just expect to be able to do that [TS]

01:19:47   especially younger people or anyone even [TS]

01:19:49   just use a touch device for a long time [TS]

01:19:51   they'll switch from an environment where [TS]

01:19:53   they're using a tablet or phone to [TS]

01:19:54   laptop and instinctively touch the [TS]

01:19:56   screen i know i used to do with candles [TS]

01:19:58   before the touchscreen candles because I [TS]

01:20:00   spent so much time with iPads I would [TS]

01:20:02   touch the screen to try to do something [TS]

01:20:03   on the kindle and of course nothing [TS]

01:20:05   would happen because they were totally [TS]

01:20:06   inert like there was no this is before [TS]

01:20:07   the touch-sensitive ones it is natural [TS]

01:20:09   to get into that habit and Microsoft has [TS]

01:20:11   built his entire interface strategy [TS]

01:20:14   around the idea that all form of input [TS]

01:20:17   are welcome then it should be supported [TS]

01:20:18   they've been changing they've been [TS]

01:20:20   changing windows do not require a [TS]

01:20:22   perfectly precise mouse pointer or even [TS]

01:20:24   a stylist to do things to try to make [TS]

01:20:26   bigger chunkier controls and gestures [TS]

01:20:28   and stuff like that and this service [TS]

01:20:31   studio is the biggest this has gotten [TS]

01:20:34   because previously was like you get [TS]

01:20:35   tablets and you got these convertible [TS]

01:20:37   laptop eat things that are like a tablet [TS]

01:20:38   with the keyboard and yeah of course you [TS]

01:20:39   can touch the screen and and they have [TS]

01:20:42   the pen input and all that stuff but [TS]

01:20:44   this is like 20 inches like this is not [TS]

01:20:47   a big table this is a full size bigger [TS]

01:20:50   than most people have is most people do [TS]

01:20:52   not have 28 inch screens on their pcs [TS]

01:20:53   full-size personal computer running [TS]

01:20:56   Windows doesn't pretend to be a tablet [TS]

01:20:58   you can't take it off and carry like a [TS]

01:21:00   tablet it's not a big phone like it is a [TS]

01:21:02   personal computer how that has all the [TS]

01:21:06   normal inputbox you would want including [TS]

01:21:08   a pen but then also accepts not just [TS]

01:21:12   touch but like stop thinking of it as [TS]

01:21:14   like I'm touching the screen but more [TS]

01:21:16   like removing in direction because the [TS]

01:21:19   the mouse and keyboard or indirect input [TS]

01:21:21   devices and their their wonderful input [TS]

01:21:25   devices and the very precise and [TS]

01:21:27   especially the mouse i feel like is the [TS]

01:21:29   least in directive in direct input [TS]

01:21:30   devices because if you use the mouse for [TS]

01:21:34   any appreciable amount of time the [TS]

01:21:36   interaction disappears very quickly you [TS]

01:21:38   don't feel like you're driving the mouse [TS]

01:21:39   vs like say you had a joystick you got a [TS]

01:21:42   joystick you would feel like you're [TS]

01:21:43   driving the mask [TS]

01:21:44   pressure around the screen like it's a [TS]

01:21:45   little car to get the things you want [TS]

01:21:46   but if you have a mouse you just [TS]

01:21:48   basically feel like you're grabbing [TS]

01:21:49   things on the screen and yes it is [TS]

01:21:51   indirect you're not touching it is not [TS]

01:21:52   as direct as touching the screen as [TS]

01:21:54   anyone who uses an ipad or iphone no [TS]

01:21:56   it's not that kind of direct but it is [TS]

01:21:58   like really good video game controls in [TS]

01:22:00   that very quickly disappears and you [TS]

01:22:02   stop thinking about the control and just [TS]

01:22:04   start thinking about the task but the [TS]

01:22:07   ultimate direct input is like literal [TS]

01:22:09   direct input as in you see something on [TS]

01:22:11   the screen [TS]

01:22:12   you manipulated on the screen with your [TS]

01:22:14   hands and your fingers or your pen like [TS]

01:22:15   the same way you would in the [TS]

01:22:17   pre-computer age if you're doing [TS]

01:22:19   something that involves putting marks on [TS]

01:22:21   a piece of paper or shuffling things [TS]

01:22:23   around put marks on the piece of paper [TS]

01:22:25   or shuffle things around like do it [TS]

01:22:27   don't move something that moves another [TS]

01:22:28   thing on a screen that represents the [TS]

01:22:30   things you're moving around just get [TS]

01:22:31   right on that screen and this thing [TS]

01:22:33   tilting down to like a drafting table [TS]

01:22:35   type you know angle saying like if [TS]

01:22:40   you're not doing text input you're not [TS]

01:22:41   writing a program but instead you're [TS]

01:22:43   doing anything having to do with visual [TS]

01:22:44   arts or anything like that [TS]

01:22:46   turn it down set aside your your [TS]

01:22:49   keyboard and mouse for now and just get [TS]

01:22:51   right on that screen it's a huge screen [TS]

01:22:53   just get right down there you gotta pin [TS]

01:22:54   you got your fingers you got the little [TS]

01:22:55   daily thing i can imagine them adding [TS]

01:22:57   more types of tools so that that to me [TS]

01:23:00   is the culmination of their strategy of [TS]

01:23:04   allowing all forms of input by saying [TS]

01:23:07   here's a form of input that not only do [TS]

01:23:09   we accept all forms impetigo you can't [TS]

01:23:10   decide you should concentrate on one [TS]

01:23:12   it's kind of weird to type and then use [TS]

01:23:13   a mouse but also touchscreen make remind [TS]

01:23:14   my click on the button of the mouse [TS]

01:23:15   person I'm touching my finger my drawing [TS]

01:23:17   pen what am i doing there are many tasks [TS]

01:23:19   in which directly interacting with a [TS]

01:23:23   gigantic screen is the best interface [TS]

01:23:25   into the task where you put aside all [TS]

01:23:28   those other tools and say I just want to [TS]

01:23:30   get right to it and obviously there's a [TS]

01:23:31   short like artists like that's the most [TS]

01:23:33   obvious one and this is their first [TS]

01:23:35   crack at this so maybe it's not as good [TS]

01:23:36   as it could be [TS]

01:23:37   people said that this too much parallax [TS]

01:23:39   because your pen is too far away from [TS]

01:23:41   like where the pixel are and that [TS]

01:23:43   there's lag and some of the applications [TS]

01:23:44   but I really feel like this is almost [TS]

01:23:47   inevitably the the future of digital art [TS]

01:23:51   whether Microsoft is going to be the [TS]

01:23:53   future of digital I don't [TS]

01:23:54   but like we've gone through the whole [TS]

01:23:55   thing of using you know using mice to [TS]

01:23:58   using you know tablets that are in [TS]

01:24:01   direct input device to do the wacom [TS]

01:24:03   cintiq which is like a tablet that's [TS]

01:24:04   also screen it's like just just keep [TS]

01:24:07   going because people love all those [TS]

01:24:09   tools and get used to those tools but [TS]

01:24:11   direct input if you can raise a [TS]

01:24:13   generation with the expectation that you [TS]

01:24:15   do your artwork on a giant 28 inch [TS]

01:24:16   monitor by directly manipulating it that [TS]

01:24:20   that's going to win in the end with a [TS]

01:24:22   micro whether it's microsoft for [TS]

01:24:23   somebody else and Microsoft getting [TS]

01:24:25   their first is it's nice to see even [TS]

01:24:29   this is a product is not great and it [TS]

01:24:31   should be worrying to apple because [TS]

01:24:33   apple doesn't have anything to compete [TS]

01:24:37   with this like at all and I don't think [TS]

01:24:40   Apple can say we really believe that the [TS]

01:24:42   future of doing digital art is using a [TS]

01:24:44   cintiq because apple doesn't make those [TS]

01:24:46   either [TS]

01:24:47   we really believe the future part is [TS]

01:24:48   using a mouse or doing everything on you [TS]

01:24:51   know they have ipads all right so [TS]

01:24:53   where's your 28 inch iPad that doesn't [TS]

01:24:54   that you need to plug into the wall like [TS]

01:24:56   whatever happens going to do i'm not [TS]

01:24:57   saying they have to make max touchscreen [TS]

01:24:58   or anything but if they care at all [TS]

01:25:00   which maybe they don't about the [TS]

01:25:02   creative arts that involve drawing [TS]

01:25:05   things even things from like I can [TS]

01:25:06   imagine cat architectural drawings not [TS]

01:25:08   just fine arts and and illustration and [TS]

01:25:10   stuff like that they need to be doing [TS]

01:25:14   something about this and I was so [TS]

01:25:15   excited when I can't with the ipad [TS]

01:25:16   probes like yeah that's what I was [TS]

01:25:18   talking about you need a really big ipad [TS]

01:25:19   and go back to listen all those shows [TS]

01:25:21   from years and years ago I think at some [TS]

01:25:24   point i did talk about the whole [TS]

01:25:25   drafting table thing I think we talked [TS]

01:25:26   about it on this very podcast but also [TS]

01:25:28   on hypercritical this is it [TS]

01:25:30   microsoft made it before Apple did Apple [TS]

01:25:32   did make their ipad bigger but it took a [TS]

01:25:34   long time to do it and they didn't make [TS]

01:25:35   it bigger bigger and the idea of an iPad [TS]

01:25:38   you can take off your desk [TS]

01:25:39   I remember being laughed at perhaps in [TS]

01:25:41   the show craft all that was like what [TS]

01:25:42   the hell's the point an ipad we can move [TS]

01:25:43   it anywhere this is the point [TS]

01:25:45   this is the thing so I'm super-proud of [TS]

01:25:47   microsoft for making this I hope they [TS]

01:25:51   keep at it i hope they don't say well [TS]

01:25:53   not a lot of people because i guarantee [TS]

01:25:54   you now people are going to buy this [TS]

01:25:56   because it's really expensive and it's [TS]

01:25:57   like the first generation product and [TS]

01:25:59   you know truth be told most people don't [TS]

01:26:00   do fine arts in our computer right but i [TS]

01:26:03   think this is the right idea for that [TS]

01:26:05   class of problems [TS]

01:26:06   and if Apple cares about that class of [TS]

01:26:09   problems with Apple cares about keeping [TS]

01:26:11   those creatives and I think to totally [TS]

01:26:12   think they should because they are [TS]

01:26:15   another branch of sort of the founding [TS]

01:26:16   bedrock of Apple's products like [TS]

01:26:18   creative professionals they need to [TS]

01:26:21   start putting the air pump into those [TS]

01:26:24   ipads and cranking up pronto because if [TS]

01:26:28   they don't someone else is gonna get [TS]

01:26:29   there first [TS]

01:26:30   do you have any idea how much I wanted [TS]

01:26:32   Reebok pumps as a kid my goodness I [TS]

01:26:35   wanted this so bad [TS]

01:26:36   you know I don't know I i really i [TS]

01:26:39   really admire this like you said John I [TS]

01:26:42   also think that this solves a class of [TS]

01:26:44   problems that i just don't have which [TS]

01:26:47   which I mean you kind of set as well but [TS]

01:26:48   i have a slack team that I mean that's a [TS]

01:26:54   handful of people that are either [TS]

01:26:56   current or former employees of my last [TS]

01:26:58   employer the consulting gig and we were [TS]

01:27:01   actually when I feel like we have very [TS]

01:27:02   cyclical conversations and one of them [TS]

01:27:05   is 0 are touchscreen devices stupid or [TS]

01:27:08   not [TS]

01:27:09   and since most of these people are our [TS]

01:27:11   windows developers most of them have [TS]

01:27:13   touchscreen windows laptops and all of [TS]

01:27:14   them swear all my god case you have no [TS]

01:27:16   idea it's so good and that very well [TS]

01:27:18   could be the case may be it is that good [TS]

01:27:20   but having used a handful of touchscreen [TS]

01:27:23   laptops admittedly very very briefly i [TS]

01:27:27   have yet to really have it click I've [TS]

01:27:30   yet to say how oh yeah this does make [TS]

01:27:34   sense and may be given given a fair shot [TS]

01:27:37   maybe it would but I don't feel like I [TS]

01:27:39   want a touchscreen computer to begin [TS]

01:27:42   with and now you're saying well why [TS]

01:27:44   wouldn't she want you why not have a [TS]

01:27:45   touchscreen imac if I was an artist heck [TS]

01:27:48   yes but as me [TS]

01:27:50   nay no thanks it's a cool thing to look [TS]

01:27:52   at you don't want to touch screen laptop [TS]

01:27:54   like when you phrase it that way like no [TS]

01:27:56   no [TS]

01:27:56   who wants to want to touch me I'm just [TS]

01:27:58   think people find themselves compelled [TS]

01:27:59   such a screen but no like those things [TS]

01:28:01   the surface i would say is not a [TS]

01:28:03   touchscreen laptop it is a tablet with a [TS]

01:28:06   keyboard apple makes one of those [TS]

01:28:07   already it's called the ipad it that [TS]

01:28:10   that's not the ipad is not a touchscreen [TS]

01:28:11   laptop it is a tablet that comes with [TS]

01:28:13   the keyboard and using what's the [TS]

01:28:14   difference well they're both they're [TS]

01:28:16   both basically the same in use like it's [TS]

01:28:18   they're open to the same angle this [TS]

01:28:20   keyboard horizontally and a screen kind [TS]

01:28:21   of vertically and yes you can touch the [TS]

01:28:23   screen but you use them in such [TS]

01:28:25   different ways like well when i'm just [TS]

01:28:27   using with my hands just not bad but the [TS]

01:28:29   monitor typing i use the keyboard like I [TS]

01:28:31   don't know what you want to call that [TS]

01:28:32   but phrasing it as a lap top of the [TS]

01:28:35   keyboard sounds like I want to poke my [TS]

01:28:37   finger is it's not comfortable as [TS]

01:28:38   Apple's point a million times to to poke [TS]

01:28:40   a vertical screen is better to use the [TS]

01:28:41   indirect input devices but i think it's [TS]

01:28:44   looking at the wrong way he's taking the [TS]

01:28:46   old the old thing and saying I'm taking [TS]

01:28:48   the whole thing and modifying by a [TS]

01:28:50   touchscreen when we take the new thing [TS]

01:28:52   which is a tablet and modified by adding [TS]

01:28:54   back a keyboard everyone's okay with it [TS]

01:28:55   and it's basically the same result and [TS]

01:28:57   this thing the surface to do i think is [TS]

01:28:58   like this is not a touchscreen laptop [TS]

01:29:01   this is also not a touchscreen I'm max [TS]

01:29:03   I'm max doesn't lay down on the table [TS]

01:29:04   for you like there's no way he'll you've [TS]

01:29:06   got in touch screen time that you can't [TS]

01:29:07   draw on it on an imac the thing doesn't [TS]

01:29:09   go until it's like 15 degrees and most [TS]

01:29:11   of them are you know it's close to [TS]

01:29:12   straight up and down the whole time that [TS]

01:29:14   is not the service to do the key feature [TS]

01:29:16   the surface to do that says when you [TS]

01:29:18   want to do the thing like just like an [TS]

01:29:19   iPad when you just want to use it like [TS]

01:29:20   an iPad you don't need the keyboard and [TS]

01:29:22   the services like when you want to do [TS]

01:29:24   stuff doesn't involve text input at all [TS]

01:29:26   like a drawing a picture and doing [TS]

01:29:27   architectural drawings or like [TS]

01:29:29   manipulating lines are things in space [TS]

01:29:32   or whatever and you don't have to use [TS]

01:29:34   the keyboard lay the whole thing down I [TS]

01:29:36   think like in the pictures they don't [TS]

01:29:37   like laying down on top of the keyboard [TS]

01:29:39   like you doing that see the keyboard [TS]

01:29:40   it's not there anymore it's like it's [TS]

01:29:42   the same way the keyboard goes away when [TS]

01:29:44   you use your iPad like I'm not using the [TS]

01:29:46   keyboard part of my ipad now i'm just [TS]

01:29:47   using the ipad part of it and that's in [TS]

01:29:49   a portable contacts this is the just [TS]

01:29:50   simply the desktop equivalent of that so [TS]

01:29:52   i'm not sure what you want to call it [TS]

01:29:54   and it is weird that Apple's most likely [TS]

01:29:56   response to this would have to be iOS [TS]

01:29:58   device and not a mac which is strange [TS]

01:30:00   because as we talked about in the past [TS]

01:30:02   Apple's thus far their inability to [TS]

01:30:04   really get pro level applications to [TS]

01:30:07   flourish on iOS devices whereas there [TS]

01:30:10   still kind of doing okay on the mac like [TS]

01:30:12   that's apples challenge to solve but [TS]

01:30:14   understand like writ large universe into [TS]

01:30:17   the future of computing direct [TS]

01:30:18   manipulation of her task that required [TS]

01:30:20   on a big gigantic awesome screen the [TS]

01:30:23   only way that's not going to happen is [TS]

01:30:24   if a CRNA our advanced to the point [TS]

01:30:27   where [TS]

01:30:28   this approach never has a chance to be [TS]

01:30:30   in you know there's never had this day [TS]

01:30:31   in the Sun because they are NVR if they [TS]

01:30:35   get good enough make having a big giant [TS]

01:30:37   thing that lights up in front of you [TS]

01:30:38   like archaic but I feel like there will [TS]

01:30:40   be a time before AR and VR get good [TS]

01:30:43   where it will be the time of the [TS]

01:30:45   gigantic touch screens and lay down in [TS]

01:30:46   front of you and when i'm super old and [TS]

01:30:50   I'm you know doing computing stuff that [TS]

01:30:53   doesn't involve typing i would like to [TS]

01:30:55   have a big gigantic gorgeous screen lay [TS]

01:30:57   down for me so that I can do stuff on it [TS]

01:30:59   and also have a keyboard when I do text [TS]

01:31:01   input and also have to be to recognition [TS]

01:31:02   also have a bunch of things like pens [TS]

01:31:04   and stuff I could do on it [TS]

01:31:05   I'm ready for the Microsoft service to [TS]

01:31:07   do with 20 years and advancement [TS]

01:31:10   probably also not a Microsoft you know [TS]

01:31:13   one thing you mentioned a briefly [TS]

01:31:15   earlier John is like if they stick with [TS]

01:31:18   this and that's because of Microsoft you [TS]

01:31:21   know they throw a lot of spaghetti at [TS]

01:31:22   the wall they they change strategies [TS]

01:31:25   often the end and they change desktop [TS]

01:31:28   initiatives often this product line like [TS]

01:31:31   many other things Microsoft just tried [TS]

01:31:33   in recent years might not be good enough [TS]

01:31:37   for them i might not sell well and offer [TS]

01:31:38   it might not get a software support it [TS]

01:31:41   won't sell enough but like you don't you [TS]

01:31:43   see this is as a like the trend like [TS]

01:31:45   they've spent all these years making a [TS]

01:31:48   single OS that accepts all these kinds [TS]

01:31:50   of input like that's not like a fluke [TS]

01:31:51   that's not like that's what they've been [TS]

01:31:53   doing and that's what gives them the [TS]

01:31:55   option to do things like this I feel [TS]

01:31:56   like this like that is is this is the [TS]

01:31:58   culmination of years and years and years [TS]

01:32:00   of work you can't make this on day one [TS]

01:32:01   you have to do all the work to make the [TS]

01:32:04   unified windows it does all the kinds of [TS]

01:32:06   input to change the windows you want to [TS]

01:32:08   even be usable with touch to make the [TS]

01:32:10   device that has a pen that you know that [TS]

01:32:11   looks like a laptop of the touchscreen [TS]

01:32:13   you have to do years and used that [TS]

01:32:14   before you can make this thing so I feel [TS]

01:32:16   like it's not a fluke sticking with it [TS]

01:32:18   merely means maybe they were retreat [TS]

01:32:20   from making their own pcs like maybe a [TS]

01:32:22   retreat back to the surface or retreat [TS]

01:32:24   back to tablet or phone sighs things or [TS]

01:32:27   get out of the business entirely and [TS]

01:32:29   just do microsoft azure and the license [TS]

01:32:31   windows the climate because we don't [TS]

01:32:32   know but I don't I I don't think like [TS]

01:32:35   they're going to say I actually touching [TS]

01:32:37   the screen is not a big deal because [TS]

01:32:38   they just spent so long coming to this [TS]

01:32:40   point like [TS]

01:32:41   I feel like they worked hard to to be [TS]

01:32:43   able to produce a machine like this and [TS]

01:32:45   this one won't sell well enough to be [TS]

01:32:47   significant but i think i really think [TS]

01:32:48   they will take a second and third crack [TS]

01:32:50   of it and I think of the best microsoft [TS]

01:32:53   to think of it pains me as I think the [TS]

01:32:55   head of the company that made the xbox [TS]

01:32:57   which was a gigantic you know ugly piece [TS]

01:33:01   of crap but they stuck with it and every [TS]

01:33:03   new xbox they made it has been better [TS]

01:33:04   than the previous one and at first i was [TS]

01:33:06   a really good system but I mean like so [TS]

01:33:08   i select was huge LOL yep [TS]

01:33:10   no I i think just because they they've [TS]

01:33:13   built in all this all this capability [TS]

01:33:15   for things like touch and pen input you [TS]

01:33:18   know if if you would have looked at the [TS]

01:33:20   TV market five years ago you would have [TS]

01:33:22   thought that 3d TVs were just what [TS]

01:33:25   everybody wanted and they were taking [TS]

01:33:27   off like crazy and the novel never [TS]

01:33:29   thought that obviously the future of TV [TS]

01:33:31   was going to be 3d but it because if you [TS]

01:33:34   look at every TV every high-end to even [TS]

01:33:37   mid range TV you could buy in a store [TS]

01:33:39   they were all 3d supported TVs but in [TS]

01:33:43   practice that the reason that feature [TS]

01:33:45   was being put there was because a [TS]

01:33:46   stagette industry was trying to add more [TS]

01:33:49   hardware things to make people upgrade [TS]

01:33:51   because they weren't upgrading their TVs [TS]

01:33:53   fast enough so Microsoft i'm putting in [TS]

01:33:56   all this crazy capability and stuff in [TS]

01:33:58   the service line all the different input [TS]

01:34:00   method and everything else it doesn't [TS]

01:34:02   necessarily mean that everyone is using [TS]

01:34:05   them or that or that this will be what [TS]

01:34:07   people how people use their their [TS]

01:34:09   microsoft computers in the future it [TS]

01:34:11   might turn out that way but just because [TS]

01:34:13   the capabilities there just because [TS]

01:34:14   Microsoft is building all this support [TS]

01:34:17   and everything is building this hardware [TS]

01:34:18   that doesn't mean that pc users are [TS]

01:34:22   going to meaningfully adopted the again [TS]

01:34:24   they might but that's not a foregone [TS]

01:34:27   conclusion now is that it's not PC users [TS]

01:34:29   that are spying this it is creative [TS]

01:34:31   professional specifically which is a [TS]

01:34:32   tiny market and out of those people [TS]

01:34:34   they're not going to buy it because this [TS]

01:34:36   is like this is like you trying to enter [TS]

01:34:37   a market that another another company [TS]

01:34:40   owns or like they're there is already a [TS]

01:34:42   way to set way to do things and you have [TS]

01:34:43   a totally different way to do it [TS]

01:34:45   some people are going to try it but [TS]

01:34:46   professionals are the least likely to [TS]

01:34:48   change their ways even if they're [TS]

01:34:50   already using a Microsoft Windows PC [TS]

01:34:52   running Photoshop [TS]

01:34:53   with a tablet whether it's a cintiq or [TS]

01:34:56   just a plain old tablet even those [TS]

01:34:58   people aren't gonna buy the surface to [TS]

01:35:00   do except for on a lark or to be curious [TS]

01:35:02   about it because they're set in their [TS]

01:35:04   ways using the Microsoft Windows PC [TS]

01:35:05   running adobe photoshop with the tablet [TS]

01:35:08   and they've been doing that the whole [TS]

01:35:09   career and that's what they like and [TS]

01:35:10   maybe the curious about this but it's [TS]

01:35:12   not a big deal but the thing about the [TS]

01:35:14   future is this is if they stick with it [TS]

01:35:16   and keep selling this even though [TS]

01:35:18   they're not making money on it because [TS]

01:35:20   not enough people buy it [TS]

01:35:21   eventually i think the market will come [TS]

01:35:23   around to it because people who start [TS]

01:35:25   out new might be interested in and try [TS]

01:35:27   it out and they never got used to using [TS]

01:35:28   uh you know an online up tablet or the [TS]

01:35:32   people use antiques might view this is a [TS]

01:35:33   better cintiq until they try to realize [TS]

01:35:35   like this antique is a little better [TS]

01:35:36   visit all these buttons on that they're [TS]

01:35:37   used to and so that's what it's gonna be [TS]

01:35:39   a long road and that the other x factor [TS]

01:35:42   is that people don't like windows or [TS]

01:35:44   market doesn't like it anyway [TS]

01:35:45   some people don't happen the way or not [TS]

01:35:47   and so those people who don't like [TS]

01:35:50   windows are going to be like well this [TS]

01:35:51   looks great and all but I don't like [TS]

01:35:53   Windows i'm not going to do that all the [TS]

01:35:54   professionals who are using Mac's for [TS]

01:35:56   example i use photoshop on a mac with [TS]

01:35:58   the wacom tablet or whatever like you [TS]

01:36:01   even just talking to see the tweets from [TS]

01:36:03   dr. wave on on Twitter like is this [TS]

01:36:05   perfect pixar it's like well actually it [TS]

01:36:06   picks are people who have these giant [TS]

01:36:09   tablets drawn to do their 3d work there [TS]

01:36:11   on like articulated arms and so it's a [TS]

01:36:14   non-starter for this thing to just [TS]

01:36:15   beyond a simple hinge that goes on just [TS]

01:36:16   like that this is just one product and [TS]

01:36:18   that it doesn't is not as flexible as [TS]

01:36:19   the products they're already using and [TS]

01:36:21   they already have a system that works [TS]

01:36:22   and so this may be novel and interesting [TS]

01:36:24   but it's not it doesn't work for pics [TS]

01:36:25   are right but this is this is early days [TS]

01:36:29   this is a single product from a single [TS]

01:36:31   company with lots of caveat that are [TS]

01:36:32   associated with it so i'm not i'm not [TS]

01:36:35   going to say that this is going to make [TS]

01:36:37   microsoft the king of the creative [TS]

01:36:39   professionals but they do have a head [TS]

01:36:41   start on people and if they keep [TS]

01:36:42   iterating on this product in this idea [TS]

01:36:44   and this concept for years and years and [TS]

01:36:45   years and keep going with this whole OS [TS]

01:36:47   strategy with touch and maybe make [TS]

01:36:49   Windows little bit nicer and the process [TS]

01:36:51   and no one else does anything because [TS]

01:36:54   who else is there is like linux is going [TS]

01:36:56   to take over the creative professional [TS]

01:36:57   market right it's them an apple [TS]

01:36:59   basically at this point and if apple [TS]

01:37:01   doesn't move it gives Microsoft time to [TS]

01:37:04   try and fail and try and fail and try [TS]

01:37:05   and fail over and over [TS]

01:37:06   again eventually they'll get pretty [TS]

01:37:08   decent and now basically win by default [TS]

01:37:10   if Apple never makes an ipad bigger than [TS]

01:37:12   12.5 inches and never makes it back like [TS]

01:37:14   this [TS]

01:37:15   thanks 143 sponsors this week betterment [TS]

01:37:18   audible and square space and we will see [TS]

01:37:21   you next week [TS]

01:37:23   now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

01:37:28   mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

01:37:31   death was accidental [TS]

01:37:34   Jonathan [TS]

01:37:36   research Marco and Casey would know [TS]

01:37:40   because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

01:37:44   and you can find the show know today p [TS]

01:37:48   dot and if your twitter follow them [TS]

01:37:57   yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

01:38:01   co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC [TS]

01:38:08   syracuse it [TS]

01:38:22   you wanna talk about salads ago and I'm [TS]

01:38:27   sorry that's not how you pronounce that [TS]

01:38:28   I had time to research this news broke a [TS]

01:38:32   couple hours before we started recording [TS]

01:38:33   that Sal's to go in who he was he was [TS]

01:38:38   the kind of product manager the head of [TS]

01:38:42   of mac OS automation technologies so [TS]

01:38:45   that would include things like Apple [TS]

01:38:46   script Apple events automator and [TS]

01:38:49   apparently he has he has been let go of [TS]

01:38:52   Apple his position has been eliminated [TS]

01:38:53   so that basically it sure seems like [TS]

01:38:56   Apple is no longer going to have a head [TS]

01:39:00   of automation of of apps on Mac OS and a [TS]

01:39:03   lot of longtime mac users are taking [TS]

01:39:05   this news to be possibly a pretty bad [TS]

01:39:08   sign [TS]

01:39:09   do we wanna talk about this i mean we [TS]

01:39:10   haven't had time to look into it much I [TS]

01:39:11   liked it I know it and I know Sal from [TS]

01:39:14   my reputation and by all the WBC [TS]

01:39:17   sessions I've seen with them and i have [TS]

01:39:18   met him in person a couple times a long [TS]

01:39:20   trade remember me but yeah i'm pretty [TS]

01:39:22   sure i have to he looks very familiar [TS]

01:39:24   yeah he knows people you recognize their [TS]

01:39:27   couple aspects that one is it Sal is [TS]

01:39:30   just a very nice gregarious charismatic [TS]

01:39:33   smart person he's got charisma UCM [TS]

01:39:36   especially if you're a nerd and you're [TS]

01:39:38   like attracted to smart people right who [TS]

01:39:41   are interesting and dynamic and have had [TS]

01:39:43   opinions and can express them well [TS]

01:39:44   that's out so people who are longtime [TS]

01:39:49   Apple fans and who have you know knowing [TS]

01:39:51   him professionally or by reputation or [TS]

01:39:53   buy his products or presentations are [TS]

01:39:55   sad to see somebody that everybody liked [TS]

01:39:57   not be at the company right that so that [TS]

01:40:02   that's not you know unquestionable [TS]

01:40:04   aspect of this entire thing because if [TS]

01:40:05   he was a jerk that everybody hated this [TS]

01:40:07   would not be as big a story right and [TS]

01:40:08   then the other part is what you just [TS]

01:40:10   said about automation automation on the [TS]

01:40:13   mac which people too short to say like [TS]

01:40:15   Oh Sally is that Apple script guy that's [TS]

01:40:17   a reasonable summary of him if you want [TS]

01:40:19   to go there there's much more to it than [TS]

01:40:20   that you can read all the stuff one has [TS]

01:40:21   a website that will put a link in the [TS]

01:40:23   show notes it's not just Apple script is [TS]

01:40:25   also shell scripting and apple events [TS]

01:40:27   that Apple scripting is based on you can [TS]

01:40:29   do it also different languages and [TS]

01:40:30   there's the the tooling and involved [TS]

01:40:32   with that even as recently as like last [TS]

01:40:34   year the year before that they finally [TS]

01:40:35   had like a library / framework support [TS]

01:40:38   for apple scripts you can write [TS]

01:40:39   applescript libraries and use them like [TS]

01:40:40   it was kind of stuck in amber for a long [TS]

01:40:43   time not really getting any better but [TS]

01:40:44   not really getting any worse but was [TS]

01:40:46   still an essential part of so many [TS]

01:40:47   professionals workflows like they would [TS]

01:40:50   use Apple script to automate the things [TS]

01:40:52   that they did and it was important to [TS]

01:40:54   them for their professional applications [TS]

01:40:55   that were using to have apple script [TS]

01:40:57   support to be able to do this [TS]

01:40:58   automator and in you know in the US 10 [TS]

01:41:00   age was this other thing like regular [TS]

01:41:03   people design sets of actions without [TS]

01:41:08   having to be programmers you know so [TS]

01:41:10   automatically that you string together [TS]

01:41:11   do this and do that and do that without [TS]

01:41:13   having to like learn languages even the [TS]

01:41:15   languages as simple as Apple script and [TS]

01:41:18   his position being eliminated [TS]

01:41:22   I don't know enough about the internal [TS]

01:41:24   arrangement but it could just be that [TS]

01:41:26   like the division has merged for some [TS]

01:41:29   other division there was another person [TS]

01:41:31   that Apple likes better who's setting [TS]

01:41:32   that division so he's out and that [TS]

01:41:33   person is in but it could also be that [TS]

01:41:35   and this would totally fit with Apple [TS]

01:41:37   recent moves and hasn't collecting the [TS]

01:41:40   mac pro and having difficulty making pro [TS]

01:41:42   apps and canning aperture and although [TS]

01:41:44   the stuff that they see using our users [TS]

01:41:50   creating automations win anything even [TS]

01:41:52   approaching a programmer like [TS]

01:41:54   environment whether it be HyperCard rest [TS]

01:41:56   in peace or automator or writing apples [TS]

01:41:59   your people skills that is not the [TS]

01:42:00   future of computing it's too complicated [TS]

01:42:03   regular people don't want to do it the [TS]

01:42:05   professionals who want to do it really [TS]

01:42:06   causing more problems themselves and [TS]

01:42:08   they're solving really should just allow [TS]

01:42:09   us to define the workflows by [TS]

01:42:10   hard-coding into our applications or [TS]

01:42:12   just buy another application does what [TS]

01:42:13   they want to stop trying to program it [TS]

01:42:15   or whatever therefore having an [TS]

01:42:17   automation division and a product [TS]

01:42:18   manager of automation that's not the [TS]

01:42:20   future of the company that's not the [TS]

01:42:22   future of the mac we don't need that [TS]

01:42:23   anymore it's a waste of time and [TS]

01:42:24   resources and it's holding back our [TS]

01:42:26   other partners that's like the doomsday [TS]

01:42:27   scenario most pessimistic scenario is [TS]

01:42:30   that automation is being the emphasized [TS]

01:42:32   in the same way that writing batch [TS]

01:42:34   scripts would be emphasized or or you [TS]

01:42:36   know having to provide programs yourself [TS]

01:42:38   would be de-emphasized right home and in [TS]

01:42:40   some it makes some sense like [TS]

01:42:42   that the market progress has been be [TS]

01:42:45   emphasizing the need for people who use [TS]

01:42:47   computers to do stuff like that it used [TS]

01:42:49   to be you had to enter your programs by [TS]

01:42:51   typing from the back of a magazine and [TS]

01:42:53   basically that's how you got your [TS]

01:42:54   program to run right and no one does [TS]

01:42:55   that anymore now we have the app store [TS]

01:42:56   right and a lot of the things that we [TS]

01:42:59   use automation for hopefully are moved [TS]

01:43:02   by the fact that programs are just [TS]

01:43:03   better or the internet does it better or [TS]

01:43:05   even something as simple as like to [TS]

01:43:07   thank for iOS workflows get workflow [TS]

01:43:11   right its third-party opportunity [TS]

01:43:13   workflows just fine apples need to do we [TS]

01:43:15   just need to provide the capabilities [TS]

01:43:16   and apple event itself you can argue [TS]

01:43:18   with the fact that Apple that's pretty [TS]

01:43:19   damn old and creaky hit this if you know [TS]

01:43:23   it could be that it's all being replaced [TS]

01:43:24   by some bold new vision of automation [TS]

01:43:26   for the modern age in the same way that [TS]

01:43:28   Apple script replaced everything that [TS]

01:43:29   came before it but as with all things [TS]

01:43:32   apple we don't know big black hole [TS]

01:43:35   you have no idea what they're planning [TS]

01:43:36   and we just have fear uncertainty and [TS]

01:43:38   doubt and once again this is all in the [TS]

01:43:40   context of Apple fans being grumpy for a [TS]

01:43:45   bunch of related reasons so it can feel [TS]

01:43:47   bad but i'm not entirely ready to go all [TS]

01:43:50   doing loom on this just because it could [TS]

01:43:53   just be that it's time to turn a new [TS]

01:43:55   page because Sal and all the texts tech [TS]

01:43:58   that he was working on and especially [TS]

01:43:59   foundational attack like Apple events [TS]

01:44:01   has never really felt like it is fit [TS]

01:44:02   into the OS 10 world so best-case [TS]

01:44:06   scenario they're rethinking this all and [TS]

01:44:08   saying what is automation mean you know [TS]

01:44:10   from here going forward doesn't mean [TS]

01:44:12   Apple events or is there better overall [TS]

01:44:14   system for automating things on the [TS]

01:44:17   computer so worst-case Tim Cook says [TS]

01:44:19   anything stupid when you do that anymore [TS]

01:44:21   people just tap their me little fingers [TS]

01:44:23   on screens and not worry about it [TS]

01:44:25   yeah I never really i never really wrote [TS]

01:44:27   much apple script I did real early on [TS]

01:44:31   when I first got my mac to do i don't [TS]

01:44:35   know like some silly basic things I [TS]

01:44:37   forget exactly what it was for was like [TS]

01:44:38   maybe setting default printer or [TS]

01:44:40   something like that and this was like in [TS]

01:44:42   two thousand eight ish and I personally [TS]

01:44:45   never really gone back and had a need to [TS]

01:44:47   write more now I know there's tons of [TS]

01:44:49   people who write it a lot and use it [TS]

01:44:52   heavily but [TS]

01:44:54   for me this this is not something I'm [TS]

01:44:57   terribly worried about and not something [TS]

01:44:58   that i use terribly often but it also [TS]

01:45:01   does make me a little bit that if this [TS]

01:45:02   is a canary in a coal mine in the coal [TS]

01:45:04   mine for automation in OS for mac OS it [TS]

01:45:08   bummed me out if that went away but I [TS]

01:45:10   wouldn't say would necessarily affect my [TS]

01:45:12   day-to-day either [TS]

01:45:13   I mean it's more about like it's a it's [TS]

01:45:17   a very very powerful set of features you [TS]

01:45:20   know what Apple script the language is [TS]

01:45:22   kind of you know that's just the [TS]

01:45:23   implementation detail of it there's but [TS]

01:45:25   the the system on which it's based that [TS]

01:45:28   exposes Apple events and and control of [TS]

01:45:30   applications automation about of other [TS]

01:45:32   applications you know through this [TS]

01:45:34   entire API that can be any language you [TS]

01:45:36   need to be and there's a there's many [TS]

01:45:37   things that that exposed to as different [TS]

01:45:40   languages like like at the jazz talk [TS]

01:45:42   makes it javascript there's a few other [TS]

01:45:44   things like that you know it's it's more [TS]

01:45:47   than this that feature set while it is [TS]

01:45:51   used by probably a very tiny percentage [TS]

01:45:53   of mac users the amount of power it [TS]

01:45:57   gives is so great that you know this [TS]

01:46:01   really the mac OS one of the things i [TS]

01:46:03   love so much about mac OS is that it is [TS]

01:46:06   just so incredibly powerful [TS]

01:46:09   I mean that it deeply like it is [TS]

01:46:12   incredibly powerful if you know how did [TS]

01:46:16   how did how to use its power like there [TS]

01:46:18   isn't there it is it is in every sense [TS]

01:46:20   of the word a true workstation OS and as [TS]

01:46:23   I said my macpro post like OS 10 is [TS]

01:46:26   awesome and to remove or or two to let [TS]

01:46:32   rot or to deprecate a major area of of [TS]

01:46:36   power from it [TS]

01:46:37   I can see why people are worried about [TS]

01:46:39   that and Johnny no I agree it it does [TS]

01:46:42   seem like things are moving away from [TS]

01:46:44   that and from that direction in consumer [TS]

01:46:48   software design mostly by Apple's doing [TS]

01:46:51   by the way I expected it's not like the [TS]

01:46:53   whole interview is mostly Apple doing [TS]

01:46:55   this but it was in many ways there's to [TS]

01:46:58   lose and they really had amazing [TS]

01:46:59   automation features that were fairly [TS]

01:47:02   accessible to people like programmers [TS]

01:47:05   will always find ways to automate things [TS]

01:47:07   the most extreme power users will always [TS]

01:47:09   find ways to automate things but one of [TS]

01:47:11   the things that made this area of OS 10 [TS]

01:47:14   so powerful is that it was really quite [TS]

01:47:17   accessible to lots of people a whole lot [TS]

01:47:19   of people who are not programmers were [TS]

01:47:21   able to use things like automator to [TS]

01:47:24   automate really you know really [TS]

01:47:26   time-consuming tasks that then freed [TS]

01:47:29   them up to to have the computer do with [TS]

01:47:31   computers supposed to do you know that [TS]

01:47:33   the kind of power that usually you have [TS]

01:47:34   to be a programmer to have many people [TS]

01:47:37   were given this power by the by this [TS]

01:47:39   system is infrastructure so the loss of [TS]

01:47:43   it I i think is certainly cause for [TS]

01:47:46   concern if if you love the mac operating [TS]

01:47:50   system as much as i do for for the for [TS]

01:47:52   this power that it's always had and you [TS]

01:47:54   know as like I'll be fine because i'm a [TS]

01:47:56   programmer i can use bash and scrape [TS]

01:47:59   something up or actually write a write [TS]

01:48:01   an app to do things if I need to [TS]

01:48:02   automate them which i do all the time I [TS]

01:48:04   hardly ever use these technologies [TS]

01:48:05   because i usually just right shell [TS]

01:48:07   scripts and stuff instead but a lot of [TS]

01:48:10   people use these I think and even get [TS]

01:48:12   percentage-wise I'm sure it's very small [TS]

01:48:14   but still that still could be like [TS]

01:48:17   thousands of people who rely on this to [TS]

01:48:19   to save them like hours of time a week [TS]

01:48:22   or two do something that would just be [TS]

01:48:23   impractical to do otherwise [TS]

01:48:24   so yeah you know I I feel the word this [TS]

01:48:28   that being said we still there's a lot [TS]

01:48:31   about this that we still don't know you [TS]

01:48:33   know all we know is that this this guy [TS]

01:48:36   with his job was cut apparently we don't [TS]

01:48:39   know why we don't know you know maybe [TS]

01:48:42   they're just reorganizing the Department [TS]

01:48:45   of whatever it said I don't know how [TS]

01:48:47   this is organized decide maybe that [TS]

01:48:48   maybe just you know a reorg maybe it's [TS]

01:48:50   like you know weird cost-cutting [TS]

01:48:52   measures maybe it might come back to [TS]

01:48:54   later who knows it [TS]

01:48:55   maybe it was just like a personal [TS]

01:48:56   conflict maybe there's a new team doing [TS]

01:48:59   basically like maybe also there's [TS]

01:49:00   overlap because right you know we have [TS]

01:49:02   this automation system but maybe this [TS]

01:49:04   with people like I told you want you to [TS]

01:49:05   be able to script your applications with [TS]

01:49:07   weapon we have this project and maybe [TS]

01:49:08   that project wins and so this will be [TS]

01:49:10   the legacy version of automation and [TS]

01:49:12   then this will come another one I was [TS]

01:49:13   thinking about in terms of how do you [TS]

01:49:15   get people who can't program to be able [TS]

01:49:16   to do simple automation stuff [TS]

01:49:18   I always feel like the people who are [TS]

01:49:20   good at using automator an apple script [TS]

01:49:22   are either basically programmers are [TS]

01:49:24   ready and they don't know it or could be [TS]

01:49:26   programmers within 15 minutes because to [TS]

01:49:29   use even though the automator is way [TS]

01:49:30   easier than coding the people who use it [TS]

01:49:33   as part of the job they they eventually [TS]

01:49:35   can't avoid basically becoming programs [TS]

01:49:38   they don't know their programs i think [TS]

01:49:39   they just click buttons but they're [TS]

01:49:40   learning conditionals loops logic [TS]

01:49:43   input/output like that they're just [TS]

01:49:46   learning what programmers would consider [TS]

01:49:48   to be an awful programming languages [TS]

01:49:50   just clicking a bunch of buttons around [TS]

01:49:51   right which is like let me just write [TS]

01:49:52   the code right but that's because he [TS]

01:49:54   also excel Wizards yeah exactly right [TS]

01:49:57   but another way you could do that is how [TS]

01:50:01   do you have how do you get [TS]

01:50:03   non-programmers to be able to make the [TS]

01:50:04   computer to do busy work that [TS]

01:50:06   programmers know how to make them do [TS]

01:50:07   another way to do it would be to have a [TS]

01:50:10   conversation with the computer and [TS]

01:50:11   describe what you want to have the [TS]

01:50:12   computer do it so a much much much much [TS]

01:50:14   much much much more advanced Syria you [TS]

01:50:19   could say serious discussion i want you [TS]

01:50:24   to take all the when photos arrived in [TS]

01:50:26   his folder i want you to take all that [TS]

01:50:27   your lieutenant named them yet [TS]

01:50:29   rename them with the date and and you [TS]

01:50:34   know tag them with this label and put [TS]

01:50:36   them into this folder something you [TS]

01:50:38   could do with hazel or with automator [TS]

01:50:39   resize them all to be this size or [TS]

01:50:41   whatever blah blah and Syria we go back [TS]

01:50:44   and forth you mean like this giving you [TS]

01:50:45   a preview what you're going to say ok if [TS]

01:50:47   i was to do it this is what i would do [TS]

01:50:48   is the book what you wanted like all it [TS]

01:50:50   would be doing behind the scenes using [TS]

01:50:51   the automation machinery that's already [TS]

01:50:53   there and all the automation you're able [TS]

01:50:55   to do for like images easy because they [TS]

01:50:56   have so many tools like resizing images [TS]

01:50:58   or are you know changing the EXIF data [TS]

01:51:00   or renaming files like that's all [TS]

01:51:03   easy to do all you need to do is figure [TS]

01:51:05   out a way to express the computer what [TS]

01:51:07   you want and if you can have a [TS]

01:51:08   conversation with even a pretty stupid [TS]

01:51:10   series that is never less hundreds of [TS]

01:51:11   times smarter than it is now to go back [TS]

01:51:14   and forth eventually series could figure [TS]

01:51:16   out essentially here's the automator [TS]

01:51:18   action would have built only we built it [TS]

01:51:20   together by having a conversation that [TS]

01:51:21   is certainly a much more advanced much [TS]

01:51:24   brighter and I think attainable future [TS]

01:51:26   of letting all people automate stuff so [TS]

01:51:28   for all we know maybe the future [TS]

01:51:30   automation is [TS]

01:51:31   and we're all wrapped up in the series [TS]

01:51:33   team and they have grand plans to do [TS]

01:51:34   that I wish them luck because so far [TS]

01:51:36   they haven't really shown me anything [TS]

01:51:38   but it could be done and so maybe you [TS]

01:51:41   know like things that we don't know [TS]

01:51:42   what's going on Apple it could just be [TS]

01:51:44   rear or we could just be emerging type [TS]

01:51:46   thing it but I i have i have hope that [TS]

01:51:51   even if Apple has decided that every [TS]

01:51:54   single technology the salads on his [TS]

01:51:55   website is the past of automation that I [TS]

01:51:58   have some hope that Apple believes that [TS]

01:52:00   there is something else that is the [TS]

01:52:01   future of automation because like you [TS]

01:52:03   said Marko people want to use their [TS]

01:52:05   computers to do complicated things but [TS]

01:52:08   if they're not programmers don't want to [TS]

01:52:10   become programmers that we have to find [TS]

01:52:11   a way to let them do that like a gentle [TS]

01:52:13   slope to get them to be able to do that [TS]

01:52:16   because they will be happier with their [TS]

01:52:17   computers and we'll find more [TS]

01:52:18   indispensable even if they good for [TS]

01:52:20   something as simple as you know when i [TS]

01:52:24   get an email like this extract the image [TS]

01:52:26   attachment put in this folder rename it [TS]

01:52:27   this way and then send me a text message [TS]

01:52:30   about it or do whatever like when you [TS]

01:52:33   show [TS]

01:52:34   normal people that they can make some of [TS]

01:52:36   that work they think it is the greatest [TS]

01:52:37   thing in the world because they're [TS]

01:52:38   basically like someone's on the chat [TS]

01:52:40   rooms like a gateway drug to programming [TS]

01:52:42   or they never actually go through the [TS]

01:52:44   gate they just stay outside of and go [TS]

01:52:45   this is great my computer knows what I [TS]

01:52:46   want [TS]

01:52:48   which i think is great so I I think [TS]

01:52:50   they're still need for non-programmers [TS]

01:52:52   to be able to automate things in their [TS]

01:52:54   computer but i'm willing to believe that [TS]

01:52:56   there is a better way [TS]