0:00:00you know those are those are free to
0:00:02play dogs we got some feedback with
0:00:08regard to my maybe maybe not know I
0:00:11guess it is definitely ailing but we
0:00:13don't know why I mac an anonymous Apple
0:00:16Genius wrote in and i'd like to read
0:00:17this is pretty much their entire email
0:00:19they said I see failures exactly like
0:00:22the one you're describing the hanging
0:00:23after waking from sleep after swapping
0:00:25the stock ran back in not the reboots
0:00:28the reboots were almost certainly owc
0:00:29ram that do trackback to this to the GPU
0:00:32for sure but much more frequently it is
0:00:34just Apple not having its stuff together
0:00:36software wise also nothing makes me
0:00:38sadder than someone dropping off a
0:00:40machine that's experiencing an
0:00:41intermittent issue and it just sits
0:00:42there for a week running stress testing
0:00:44or diagnostics and we have to give it
0:00:46back with a shrug when we find nothing
0:00:48or worse when people are so utterly
0:00:49convinced as Marco that the that a
0:00:51problem is quote definitely hardware
0:00:54quote that we get bullied into replacing
0:00:56parts anyway for customer appeasement /
0:00:59theater for failure that can't be
0:01:01replicated and then have that person
0:01:03pick up the machine and it's still
0:01:04having the same issue because that issue
0:01:06was never the hardware in the first
0:01:07place
0:01:07don't jump the gun be sure it's hardware
0:01:09before you come in and we'll be able to
0:01:11get it right the first time
0:01:12signed apple genius best of luck and
0:01:15don't listen to Marco sunglasses emoji
0:01:18that is actually part of the email which
0:01:20made me laugh so you have so this
0:01:22particular genius said it could I may
0:01:26may not be crazy and I have gotten a lot
0:01:29of feedback about the imac and i am
0:01:32happy to report that it was split about
0:01:34right down the middle half the people
0:01:36said I was insane for not bringing it in
0:01:37and have people said I totally feel you
0:01:39and you're doing the right thing
0:01:40oh we should clarify you know this
0:01:42because you made a pie chart i did I I
0:01:45went full business on this because i
0:01:48always carry it i was curious how this
0:01:50is gonna play out because I share this
0:01:52pie-chart oh yeah if you want i mean you
0:01:55can like droplet or something red sheet
0:01:57right you just made that it's a
0:01:58spreadsheet and the graph is from the
0:01:59spreadsheet is a google google sheets
0:02:01thing or whatever it is a Google sheet
0:02:03yeah so i probably could drop the sheet
0:02:05if I really felt like it but i probably
0:02:08won't because it's mostly irrelevant but
0:02:10suffice to say i have tried
0:02:12act just line items and I are attracted
0:02:16feedback as line items I've split into
0:02:19four categories pro Casey antique AC
0:02:21jokes which is the beginning I thought
0:02:23we're going to be far more frequent than
0:02:25they were it ended up being only three
0:02:26of them but let go just spilled water on
0:02:29it again haha
0:02:30and that was basically all three of them
0:02:31and then neutral post which were
0:02:34sometimes people saying like oh I can
0:02:37understand your not wanting to bring it
0:02:38in but maybe you should or oh we have
0:02:41you tried using this memory testing tool
0:02:43etc etc etc and so it has been 49 and a
0:02:49half percent as for my fancy little
0:02:50spreadsheet that has have been in the
0:02:53pro Casey camp and between the anti
0:02:58Casey and neutral posts
0:03:01that's another 47.7 percent so there you
0:03:06go
0:03:06so so I have to ask the obvious question
0:03:09which is has your Mac had any problems
0:03:12since a week ago it has indeed but I can
0:03:15explain these way as well don't you
0:03:16worry
0:03:17so as it turns out it has rebooted
0:03:19itself twice but I am I hold on with our
0:03:22a minute
0:03:23yes hold on though that is because hold
0:03:26on
0:03:27that's because I've had power failures
0:03:28both times and that is the end the imac
0:03:30is not connected to my UPS all right
0:03:32well that's not rebooting itself that's
0:03:33a different thing
0:03:35yeah it doesn't count but that's why i
0:03:36said it's not it's it has had an issue
0:03:39but its not its fault so that's not an
0:03:41issue
0:03:42well I mean I don't want it to reboot
0:03:43itself but I mean when the powers of
0:03:44yang there's nothing you can do is
0:03:46perhaps the best reason for you to bring
0:03:48this in for what may be one of several
0:03:50frustrating visits to the apple store is
0:03:53that if you don't every single week on
0:03:55the show we are going to ask you how how
0:03:59is the you know any new issues because
0:04:01it's been on kind of like a week
0:04:02interval right so every week there's a
0:04:04potential that something could happen
0:04:06that's correct although like these power
0:04:08outages are really messing with the with
0:04:09whatever the interval was uh I know it's
0:04:11it's the worst
0:04:12ok so it's a follow-up question because
0:04:15the following section of the show he you
0:04:17have a you know a three-thousand-dollar
0:04:18high-end computer that uses your primary
0:04:20computer at home you have a UPS why is
0:04:25this computer not plugged into the
0:04:26UPS well so it's plugged into the non
0:04:29battery portion of the UPS because the
0:04:31priority is the technology and
0:04:35associated paraphernalia like my ear oh
0:04:38and my router and all that other stuff
0:04:40and it's not that big a deal to me if
0:04:43this thing just croaks welts on as we've
0:04:45already demonstrated hfs+ it's a big
0:04:48deal em too shy i actually do in 10-20
0:04:52bring this up because i had intended to
0:04:53move it over to the battery side i just
0:04:54haven't had the chance yet and we almost
0:04:56never lose power here it's we've just
0:04:58had a couple of really really crummy
0:04:59really really crummy summer
0:05:02thunderstorms and it's just so happen
0:05:04that we've lost power long enough for
0:05:06you know it's been more than just a
0:05:07flash it's been long enough for this
0:05:08thing to get upset
0:05:11yeah so it's on my to-do list move it to
0:05:14the other side of the power strip thing
0:05:16do as I power left in your thingy like
0:05:18whatever size the ups's yeah you knowing
0:05:21that was that was the reason why wasn't
0:05:23there already is because i wanted to
0:05:24give as much time as possible to the
0:05:26synology because my hypothetical here is
0:05:29that I'm gonna be in a situation where i
0:05:30don't have the ability to turn the
0:05:32synology off and this actually came up
0:05:34when we were in San Francisco together
0:05:35we were all Jason smells my watch
0:05:38started going berserk because i was
0:05:40getting push notifications from the
0:05:41technology that the power is going on
0:05:44and off and on and off and on and off
0:05:45and on and off and i actually asked
0:05:47Jason if he wouldn't mind if I used his
0:05:505k imac to log into the synology and
0:05:53shut itself down because I didn't want
0:05:55it to you know violently dye it if the
0:05:58power and stayed off long enough and so
0:06:01that's why i have the synology on the
0:06:04UPS but i kept the imac off of it
0:06:08because I wanted all available power to
0:06:10the technology so it can hang on as long
0:06:11as possible in the event of a power
0:06:13outage like I said this has been very
0:06:14peculiar because generally we don't have
0:06:17any issues with power here and we we
0:06:20used to have them relatively frequently
0:06:22but there was a tree branch on the lines
0:06:25right outside my neighborhood and
0:06:26everything's in ground in the
0:06:27neighborhood and that tree branches cut
0:06:29cut back by the power company a year or
0:06:31two ago for exactly this reason to
0:06:33prevent this from happening it's just
0:06:34been a peculiar lately that I've lost
0:06:36power a lot so I my to-do list remove
0:06:38the imac over to the battery side of the
0:06:40eps I just haven't had the chance yet
0:06:42when I just unplug it right now because
0:06:44it doesn't matter what do you remember
0:06:47the violent death of the things that
0:06:48this anthology will shut itself down the
0:06:50UPS battery that's true sir actually I'm
0:06:52glad you brought that up because that
0:06:53you're absolutely right i'm sure i've
0:06:54never actually tested that in so I'm
0:06:57just scared i tested it unintentionally
0:07:00and also get better get push
0:07:02notifications i get emails every time we
0:07:04vacuum in the basement the technology
0:07:07sends me email about going to UPS and
0:07:09then going back to power because it's
0:07:11like a flicker when you Empire up the
0:07:13air the vacuum on the same circuit as
0:07:15the am I my house is under the panel and
0:07:19my house is undersized for the things we
0:07:20have done it anyway I've tested many
0:07:23times where we lost power for long
0:07:25enough and it sends me emails then I
0:07:27think it also sends you know it's like
0:07:28well pump shutting down by and then when
0:07:31it comes back on i forget if you get the
0:07:32goodbye email but you certainly get the
0:07:33turning back online and yeah there's a
0:07:34setting in the thing where you can tell
0:07:36it when what percentage shutdown or
0:07:38whatever
0:07:39yeah I have that turned on like i said i
0:07:41was just scared of it and i should add
0:07:43just for interesting that the way I got
0:07:46push notifications was by an app called
0:07:47pushover which it i'm sure there's other
0:07:50ones like this but basically i get a
0:07:52unique email from the pushover company
0:07:55that i have the synology send emails to
0:07:58and then that gets forwarded actually if
0:08:00this and that probably does something
0:08:01like this that a that email gets
0:08:04forwarded to my iphone and then to my
0:08:07watch is so the push notification
0:08:09getting is really just that same email
0:08:10that you're getting I just having I'm
0:08:12having it forwarded on to a to a service
0:08:14that will send the push notification so
0:08:17just pro tip but yeah I should I should
0:08:19definitely move this over to the battery
0:08:21side for sure i wanted to talk a little
0:08:24bit more about pokemon I after we
0:08:27recorded last week there were a couple
0:08:28of interest or whether there was one
0:08:30trend i notice what I just thought was
0:08:32fascinating and i noticed two local well
0:08:37what was once a museum was a park the
0:08:39Science Museum of Virginia which is here
0:08:40in richmond i had posted on their
0:08:43facebook page i kind of feel like such
0:08:45an old person i say that but i think
0:08:47that is the proper vernacular looking to
0:08:49catch somewhere pokemon while
0:08:50all seeing some pretty incredible
0:08:51hashtag science this weekend the
0:08:54museum's pokey stops will have a hashtag
0:08:56learning modules planted to attract wild
0:08:58hashtag pokemon while our exhibits are
0:09:00filled with old with Jana so I'm
0:09:03supposed to say the Museum of Science
0:09:05Museum Virginia had taken it upon
0:09:07themselves to install lawyers in the
0:09:11pokey stops that are probably one or
0:09:13more focused stops that's at the science
0:09:15museum to try to attract people to come
0:09:18visit which I thought was really
0:09:19interesting and then may not park which
0:09:21is a park also here in richmond and
0:09:23that's actually where where Aaron and I
0:09:26got engaged
0:09:27pokemon go catch them all at me months
0:09:30and there's a cage clearly photoshopped
0:09:32picture of of a family looking at one of
0:09:36the pokemon pokeyman pokeyman etc
0:09:39whatever its called
0:09:40anyway the point being they did an
0:09:43after-hours exclusive event where for
0:09:47ten dollars a person you can go to
0:09:50maymont park which is beautiful and it's
0:09:52free generally but it's absolutely worth
0:09:53going to
0:09:54yeah lots of join us for an exclusive
0:09:57after-hours pokemon go event as we
0:09:59activate lures in the app and explore
0:10:01the grounds in search of mysterious
0:10:02creatures that only come out at night
0:10:03$10 a person five if you remember adults
0:10:06must accompany children ages 15 and
0:10:07under the tickets are limited to the
0:10:09first 300 register registrants oh
0:10:11actually that's happening a week from
0:10:13tomorrow as it turns out so I just
0:10:15thought that this was really interesting
0:10:17that these local businesses and guilt
0:10:20museums and parks which I don't have the
0:10:22perception of being slightly starting to
0:10:24me even the science museum i got on this
0:10:26bandwagon of getting people to spend
0:10:29actual money playing this game but the
0:10:32money they're spending isn't on the game
0:10:33it's with these venues I just I thought
0:10:35it was really really clever idea and not
0:10:37unique to Richmond but it it just popped
0:10:40up on my radar because these are local
0:10:41places i thought it was cool
0:10:43what do you think the chances are that
0:10:44the games servers will actually hold you
0:10:46know number one hold up in that area and
0:10:48number two work properly so like
0:10:50everybody would actually see the Lord's
0:10:52and everything
0:10:53a week from now who knows right now the
0:10:56the frustration of my household of the
0:10:57servers are always down like my wife and
0:11:00children have taken up the game either
0:11:02and what do you think having been in the
0:11:05proximity of the game now every time I
0:11:07went on walks with them i use my stone
0:11:09to to catch some for her she's into it
0:11:11they're into its good excuse to walk
0:11:12around in fact I think they're probably
0:11:14still out now even though it's like dark
0:11:16because the servers were down there were
0:11:17we're gonna go on a walk to catch
0:11:19program but the servers have been out
0:11:21until very recently tonight so they're
0:11:23basically down anytime you want to do it
0:11:24hey everyone's home from work and kids
0:11:25are home from camp or whatever let's go
0:11:27hunting for pokemon and that's exactly
0:11:29when the servers are down and I guess
0:11:32enough kids went to bed the server
0:11:33backup anyway it's frustrating the most
0:11:35heartwarming story i read about pokemon
0:11:39which is on the internet so must be true
0:11:40is that an animal shelter had a posting
0:11:44that says basically if you if you want
0:11:46to play pokemon but you're embarrassed
0:11:47to let people see you playing which he
0:11:50shouldn't be but you know if you're
0:11:51embarrassed if you love you playing
0:11:52pokemon come to our dog shelter and four
0:11:56five dollars an hour you can rent one of
0:11:57our dogs and walk it haha don't look
0:12:00like you're walking a dog when really
0:12:03you're hunting for pokemon so here are
0:12:05the results of this they now have a
0:12:07waiting list of people who want to pay
0:12:09for the privilege of walking a dog they
0:12:10made so much money on rental fees for
0:12:12the dogs that they've waived the
0:12:13adoption fees when people running dogs
0:12:15are out walking they post pictures of
0:12:17themselves playing the game on facebook
0:12:18instagram people are then coming to the
0:12:20shelter asking to adopt the specific
0:12:22dogs they saw in the pictures of these
0:12:23two occasions people have called the
0:12:25Challenger and said hey I didn't think I
0:12:27really wanted a dog but me and this dog
0:12:28get along really well so i'm not
0:12:29bringing him back and the shelter
0:12:31currently has no dogs available to rent
0:12:32and there's a waiting list all the dogs
0:12:34have been adopted they're bringing in
0:12:35new york some other shelters
0:12:37that's amazing that's great if even if
0:12:39even if that's only half true that's
0:12:41still great and I hope it's all true
0:12:43yeah I completely great like the idea at
0:12:45the best part of that again if it's true
0:12:47as a kid instead of paying people to
0:12:49like the shelters like we have all these
0:12:50dogs and we don't have enough staff
0:12:51members to walk that way we get people
0:12:53come back to walk through the reversing
0:12:55the cash flow come to us pay us to walk
0:12:57our dog it's like that usually like
0:12:59begging for volunteers to come do it for
0:13:01free right and that all the dogs get
0:13:04adopted away because of the magic of
0:13:06social media that the dog pad his dog
0:13:08shelters empty have to pull from other
0:13:09dog shelter was also like you know so
0:13:12often people come up with the idea or
0:13:13wouldn't be great if you could rent
0:13:14puppies
0:13:15hubby rental is a really cool sounding
0:13:18idea for about four seconds until you
0:13:20think about the reality of what that
0:13:22doesn't actually be like if you're like
0:13:23oh that's horrible but grown dog rental
0:13:29from like a shelter where these dogs
0:13:31have nobody else and really need people
0:13:34that flips it around completely like
0:13:36that's that takes this great sounding
0:13:39for a second but ultimately terrible
0:13:41idea and make him something endearing
0:13:43and and positive and overall pleasant I
0:13:46I honestly really hope it was real
0:13:48yeah I I have my doubts but i really
0:13:50hope it's real you know what those are
0:13:52those are free to play dogs see things
0:13:56that they don't because they're like you
0:13:58know what I really like this dog i want
0:14:00to adopt and then you essentially done
0:14:02in app purchase for you know a dozen
0:14:04years of paying for vet bills and dog
0:14:07food and all the other things you have
0:14:08to pay for you just it's free-to-play is
0:14:10free to walk the dog but it's a trap
0:14:12because they know based on human nature
0:14:14the dogs are adorable and people are
0:14:16gonna fall in love with them and then
0:14:18they get the big bucks
0:14:19yeah the final the final delightful
0:14:22things that apparently this this bubble
0:14:23has boosted nintendo stock price so much
0:14:25that their market cap is now bigger than
0:14:27sony its business so I i do wonder do
0:14:32you guys think that Pokemon go is
0:14:34actually going to still be relevant even
0:14:36in a week you know again you know it
0:14:38basically to what degree do you think
0:14:39this is just like a big spike fall by a
0:14:41big crashes just fat or do you think
0:14:43it's gonna actually stick around as like
0:14:45a game people play for for a pretty long
0:14:47time how's my question last week was
0:14:49like that new trainers because Pokemon
0:14:51has always been popular every time your
0:14:52pokémon game comes out all the people
0:14:54who are rabid Pokemon fans who buy every
0:14:56single game by it the question is how
0:14:58many more of those people does this make
0:15:00because yeah there's going to be a
0:15:01dropoff like oh I play this when I was
0:15:03really popular but I wasn't into it
0:15:05enough to become a dedicated fan of the
0:15:07franchise so when the next game comes
0:15:09out you see how many of those people
0:15:10come back and i think it it has to add
0:15:13more fans like just because it's got so
0:15:15much exposure to people who've never
0:15:16played pokemon games before it has to
0:15:18add more not sure how much more
0:15:20certainly this spike is an aberration
0:15:23and I don't expect intend to keep every
0:15:27single one of the people who are playing
0:15:29well as long term dedicated players of
0:15:33the franchise you know I to put things
0:15:35in perspective it i think its recently
0:15:38as a couple of weeks ago I was visiting
0:15:40with my parents and they were still
0:15:42playing words with friends so I mean
0:15:45these things can be sticky and I think
0:15:47this is going to be at least in part a
0:15:50flash-in-the-pan flash-in-the-pan but i
0:15:52think it given the pokemon yellow bet
0:15:57the backstory and and how many people
0:15:59have enjoyed it so much in the past i
0:16:01think it will be a lot stickier than
0:16:03most of these other things like for
0:16:04example draw something which was all
0:16:07this is amazing LOL ok nobody cares
0:16:09yeah right dress up as a higher bar and
0:16:11your parents still playing that same
0:16:12game is not really helping the word for
0:16:14helping zing or whatever unless they're
0:16:16dumping more money into it right the
0:16:17whole question for the the games like
0:16:20pokemon is when we come out with the
0:16:22inevitable improve sequel will you do
0:16:25that one too and also liked it last week
0:16:27alright have you ever put any money into
0:16:29this is all your money going to rent
0:16:31dogs to walk like where is the money
0:16:34going like obviously there are people
0:16:35who are putting money into this game is
0:16:37going to make money for all the people
0:16:38involved but it's not the money is
0:16:40coming from a small number of people who
0:16:43spend a lot and almost everybody else it
0:16:45seems like you're spending nothing so
0:16:46far no one in my family spent anything
0:16:48either
0:16:49yep I just I'm really fascinated by the
0:16:55way in which the the real world and the
0:16:58you know this this electronic this
0:17:00entertainment world have collided and
0:17:02I've been I mean there's been some
0:17:04crummy stories coming out of it because
0:17:05humans are terrible but I just been I
0:17:09thought it was so need and i still think
0:17:11it's so neat and such an interesting an
0:17:14interesting investigation into how these
0:17:15things kind of come together and and in
0:17:18an interesting case study if you'll
0:17:19permit me to use a terrible business
0:17:20term it's been fascinating to watch so
0:17:23very cool stuff
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0:18:45softbank which is a Japanese company are
0:18:48they a cell phone carrier or I don't
0:18:50know much about them they're like a
0:18:51holding company i think they do have
0:18:53their telecommunication somebody do have
0:18:55like a cell phone ring
0:18:56okay well regardless they have bought
0:18:58arm 432 billion dollars haven't bought
0:19:02want to buy from the process of trying
0:19:05to buy i think that the deals not yet
0:19:07finalised I what we think about this
0:19:09that this is I'm I'm not so much
0:19:12interested in the details of like are
0:19:14more the history of arm especially you
0:19:16know like that you can read a lot of
0:19:17stories about its origins with the the
0:19:19Newton and where this whole effort came
0:19:21from and although the business I'm
0:19:23mostly interested in terms of thinking
0:19:26about how Apple implements its famous we
0:19:32want to own and control the major
0:19:34technologies and I for whatever the
0:19:35temple quotas like they think they want
0:19:37to control technologies that go into
0:19:38their products right they they do that
0:19:41selectively like they do it according to
0:19:45their own definition so I was thinking
0:19:49of an example they don't own the
0:19:53companies that make the really tough
0:19:54class that goes on top of my phones and
0:19:56they don't own now corning or whoever
0:19:58makes like the gorilla glass or the
0:20:00variance or whatever they don't own
0:20:02foxconn or the companies that assemble
0:20:06their products you would encourage you
0:20:08know are those the core technologies or
0:20:11whatever they specific wording was using
0:20:13that quote i guess not right they do own
0:20:17the operating system they do own like
0:20:20the hardware designs and you know the
0:20:22whole like the product and although this
0:20:24stuff but some parts of it they always
0:20:27considered to be like I will pay
0:20:29somebody else do that and it doesn't
0:20:31really matter that much because if we
0:20:34can't get this glass from this company
0:20:36will try to get from this other one of
0:20:37this company will assemble our phones
0:20:39like will pick suppliers against each
0:20:40other like that they end up being just
0:20:41being a supplier so the question for arm
0:20:44arm which makes the doesn't make the
0:20:46chips but arm which owns the
0:20:48intellectual property to the instruction
0:20:50set and some of the architectural
0:20:52details in many many patents and so on
0:20:53and so forth for the CPUs that are in
0:20:55all of Apple's iOS devices
0:20:57is that just another supplier or is that
0:21:01something that Apple need stone and
0:21:03control and the reason that comes up is
0:21:04it as far as I'm aware as we record this
0:21:06this deal is not finalized
0:21:08should Apple be concerned that some
0:21:11company that's not them and there's not
0:21:14whoever you know the current armed
0:21:15people who are running arm is going to
0:21:18buy the company that I feel like another
0:21:23they rely on but that is an integral
0:21:25part of their most important products
0:21:28should they care they're like well
0:21:30whatever you guys do whatever you want
0:21:31as long as you continue to give us the
0:21:33ARM architecture license lets us
0:21:34essentially build our building designer
0:21:37on cpu's with your intellectual property
0:21:39its core were fine I don't care really
0:21:41careful loans arm or should they be like
0:21:43someone get the checkbook
0:21:45we've got 32 billion dollars between the
0:21:46couch cushions we should just outbid
0:21:48them I it's hard to say without the the
0:21:50details of the deal that they have a
0:21:52farm but this is this intellectual
0:21:53property is super super important i mean
0:21:55this is what all the a-series chips run
0:21:57on right so I'm so torn i would say it
0:22:01is not important for them to own arm as
0:22:03long as they have what as close as they
0:22:07can get to an in perpetuity license for
0:22:10whatever IP they currently have
0:22:12I mean there's also like there's if you
0:22:14look at what apple buys and what they
0:22:15don't buy they tend not to buy component
0:22:19manufacturers that also supply the
0:22:21entire rest of the computing industry
0:22:22with parts so like they don't by Intel
0:22:25you don't see them buying AMD or nvidia
0:22:28they don't buy like a flash ran
0:22:30manufacturer attempt to buy samsung
0:22:32because half the component come from
0:22:33Samsung like it there are lots of these
0:22:35you know component suppliers that that
0:22:38make all sorts of you know parts that go
0:22:41in multiple kinds of computers or phones
0:22:44or whatever else not just apples and
0:22:46apple you know you could make an
0:22:48argument that Apple should maybe by
0:22:50intel or something like that you know as
0:22:52if we ever talk about the mac line up
0:22:54being so stale again this episode
0:22:56because we talk about every episode
0:22:57because the really big problem
0:22:58you know you could look at me like maybe
0:23:00Apple should just buy Intel and run that
0:23:02company you know in their own interest
0:23:03but you know it
0:23:05there's a reason why they don't have
0:23:06lots of reasons why they don't first of
0:23:08all Apple tends to not buy companies at
0:23:10that long
0:23:10George because if they tend not to need
0:23:12to i would imagine they have some kind
0:23:17of deal with the armed license that they
0:23:19have because they have a special license
0:23:20be able to do their own ship designs
0:23:21with that other details of that i will
0:23:24probably hear about it from our readers
0:23:25but basically i would imagine they have
0:23:29ways to not get locked out of that
0:23:30forever say the country needed by armed
0:23:32and if they did ever try to buy one of
0:23:34these companies that also supplies the
0:23:35rest of the industry with major
0:23:37important parts like it tell her arm
0:23:39they would probably be regulatory issues
0:23:42with that that would probably not be
0:23:44great for them with the Justice
0:23:45Department and with the FTC maybe or
0:23:48whoever does the kind of regulatory
0:23:49management there there be political
0:23:52problems with that there might be you
0:23:53know justice problems and address
0:23:54problems so there's lots of reasons for
0:23:57them not to buy these companies that
0:23:58also supply everybody else with stuff
0:24:00but I think about is not so much who the
0:24:03company's supply but could Apple get
0:24:06that same thing from somewhere else and
0:24:07most things I can think of like Intel's
0:24:10I go you can get x86 CPUs anywhere else
0:24:12well you can you get them from AMD it's
0:24:14not a lot of choices but there is at
0:24:15least one other choices out there for
0:24:18flash ram other things like that even
0:24:21the glass stuff you could argue that no
0:24:24one has the specific kind of glad that
0:24:26they want except for corning or whatever
0:24:28but like you can get glass from
0:24:30somewhere else but because what arm
0:24:33supplies arm doesn't make anything with
0:24:35all our supplies is intellectual
0:24:37property as any licensing like they
0:24:39don't you know they license out designs
0:24:41and the right to use this instruction
0:24:43set and all that stuff I don't think you
0:24:45can get that anywhere else there is no
0:24:47alternate supplier for that so if for
0:24:49example softbank buys arm and slowly
0:24:52transitions to company away i'm not
0:24:53they're going to this but like decides
0:24:55that they're you know arm is going to
0:24:56become a company that does augmented
0:24:58reality games you collect monsters but
0:25:00it seems like a more lucrative future
0:25:01Apple can't but I don't think Apple the
0:25:05matter what contracts they have the best
0:25:07they could hope for is like you can
0:25:08continue to make chips
0:25:09according to the designs of already
0:25:11licensed but there will be no new
0:25:12designs and by the way you can make your
0:25:14own designs without licensing these
0:25:16patents from us or without otherwise
0:25:18buying the intellectual property that
0:25:19underlies that like because of the weird
0:25:22accident of history that x86 and
0:25:24AMD being able to make XXX compatible
0:25:26chips I don't think there's any
0:25:27equipment that are matter i'm sure
0:25:28people will send it in a sentence under
0:25:31the corrections that was not the case
0:25:32month follow-up on the next show but I i
0:25:35keep thinking about it in terms of uh is
0:25:39there an alternate supplier like how how
0:25:41important is armed apple and what are
0:25:43there alternatives if something weird
0:25:46starts to happen there and i also think
0:25:47about this and speaking of Max a lot of
0:25:49questions we've gotten about this with
0:25:50the arm feels like does this make it
0:25:52more or less likely that our max you're
0:25:54gonna come out w seems like it'd do any
0:25:56announcements indicate our max why
0:25:59haven't we already see marmax and me
0:26:01thinking about our maximum for a while
0:26:02gonna and I i thought--like x86 max
0:26:06again
0:26:07worst-case scenario you have to
0:26:09suppliers that you could convince to
0:26:11make you x86 CPUs i'm good i guess if
0:26:15you have enough money and things
0:26:15possibly like all right well someone
0:26:17will license us the ability to make our
0:26:19own arm check some of the license is the
0:26:20ability to make your own excesses like
0:26:22we'll just buy the intellectual property
0:26:23like we're never stuck because huge
0:26:26problems of money as a
0:26:26get-out-of-jail-free card so it doesn't
0:26:29really matter what happens over there
0:26:30until there are problems don't worry
0:26:31about it but like for the arm max Mike
0:26:34is it the Apple spends a lot of money
0:26:37making the a you know I'm gonna say X
0:26:41whatever the the a followed by a digit
0:26:43system-on-a-chip things that are in all
0:26:45their devices they hired a lot of people
0:26:47they bought a lot of companies they do a
0:26:49lot of work on their own their chips are
0:26:51not like oh well just like since a
0:26:53design from from arm and pay someone to
0:26:55manufacture they do their own chip
0:26:57design their own integration it's very
0:26:59expensive very complicated it's a part
0:27:01of apples competitive advantage is the
0:27:03mac line which were about to talk about
0:27:05the the ongoing stagnation is the mac
0:27:08line worth doing an equal or possibly
0:27:12even greater investment in chip design
0:27:14to essentially do what intel and AMD
0:27:19Nvidia or you know all the parts that
0:27:21make up the parts that go into a mac
0:27:23they're not simple parts they're
0:27:24complicated their higher performance
0:27:27things that go into phones they are
0:27:29generally bigger they have more
0:27:31transistors if you are going to sign up
0:27:33today we're going to our max we can only
0:27:35control the CPUs to go into them and we
0:27:36can make them just the way
0:27:37you want them that is a big investment
0:27:39probably equal to the investment they're
0:27:42putting into the the iphone
0:27:43system-on-chips for a line of business
0:27:45that is nowhere near the size of the iOS
0:27:47line so maybe the thing that's keeping
0:27:49our max away is not that apple would
0:27:51like to get away from Intel it was doing
0:27:53their products and it's kind of annoying
0:27:54but just because it would cost so much
0:27:56money for Apple to make a like we spent
0:27:59a lot of that was talking about
0:28:00can Apple make a an ARM chip is
0:28:02competitive intel yeah maybe but i will
0:28:05cost a lot of money
0:28:06it's not easy to do that what Intel does
0:28:07is not simple and i'm not quite sure
0:28:09that Apple thinks the mac harbor line is
0:28:12worth it is worth the investment and
0:28:15even you could also argue that like
0:28:16things with intel aren't bad enough yet
0:28:19you know like and yet but this is gonna
0:28:21leave it to our next topic a lot but you
0:28:23know you need it in order for for app
0:28:25for Apple to switch from powerpc to
0:28:27Intel things have to get pretty bad with
0:28:30our pc for a while and Intel hat was way
0:28:33better like it there had to be this
0:28:35massive Delta between the status quo of
0:28:38them using powerpc and being you know
0:28:40really having up having a problematic
0:28:42roadmap and pretty bad neglect and
0:28:44becoming very much uncompetitive with
0:28:46the other side and have any other side
0:28:48being intel on be really compelling and
0:28:51have very few downsides to switching to
0:28:53it and just these massive upsides and I
0:28:56think right now if you look at like you
0:28:57know what they have with intel versus
0:28:59what a possible future with our max
0:29:01would be I don't think the Delta between
0:29:03those two is nearly as large as he used
0:29:05to be you know between between tyrosine
0:29:07until the Delta now is like well in tell
0:29:09ya Intel is really slow to make new
0:29:12chips but their chips that they do
0:29:14release mostly are really good like they
0:29:17get their occasional problems but for
0:29:20the most part like they are very
0:29:21competitive that's one of the reasons
0:29:23why apple doesn't use AMD CPUs as you
0:29:25know they could use whatever ABC even
0:29:29called these data they stopped on stuff
0:29:31for I don't even know anyway what you
0:29:34know AMD CPUs aren't very competitive
0:29:36with intel cpus and haven't been for
0:29:37some time and in most markets that apple
0:29:39would ship computers and intel cpus are
0:29:42just really good yeah there they have
0:29:44dramatically slowed down their rate of
0:29:47improvement and new releases and all
0:29:49these releases getting delayed and
0:29:50everything
0:29:51but they still use them because for the
0:29:53most part they're really good and it's
0:29:55using all these proven platforms Johnson
0:29:57like all the parts that go into a full
0:30:00computer i mean yet they do they do some
0:30:03degree of it on the phones on the a
0:30:04serious system-on-chips there but like
0:30:07computers have all these different ports
0:30:09and standards they have to do and
0:30:10everything on a phone apple can't delete
0:30:12ports fast enough
0:30:13like there's a yeah we started out with
0:30:15two we're gonna have one now like a and
0:30:17it'll be ours we designed like no
0:30:19computers have like four USB ports and
0:30:22have all these video out standards and
0:30:23all this like computers have to have a
0:30:25most computers i guess the macbook one
0:30:27doesn't but here most computers you have
0:30:29to have all these standards of the
0:30:30community is used after all these like
0:30:32you know disc interfaces and i/o
0:30:35interfaces and now you know all this
0:30:36stuff that you don't really have to
0:30:39think about much when you're just
0:30:40designing iphones and ipads because they
0:30:41don't use them but they don't need to
0:30:43interoperate with up with most of these
0:30:45devices so there's all this stuff that
0:30:47like a computer needs and all this
0:30:49competitiveness that Intel offers that
0:30:52you know the difference between intel
0:30:55now having a slow release cycle but
0:30:57providing quite a lot when they do
0:30:59finally release it versus what you have
0:31:02to do to build up an entire computer
0:31:05line using arm CPUs you know the amount
0:31:08of work on the other side is so
0:31:09tremendous and the game probably
0:31:12wouldn't be that big
0:31:13yeah and on top of that I feel like
0:31:16Apple and Intel have a at least an ok
0:31:18relationship right because it wasn't
0:31:20that long ago that that I think it was
0:31:22the first macbook air Intel created like
0:31:25this completely one-off chip with the
0:31:27cpu for the macbook air my crazy
0:31:29thinking that do you remember this well
0:31:31it it was a one-off packaging it they
0:31:34didn't like create a whole custom chip
0:31:36design but they created a custom socket
0:31:39and like package for the chip to get
0:31:42them to make the whole socket small sure
0:31:43I still counted my point is just that
0:31:45they were able to ask intel or four
0:31:49tellin tell whatever the situation may
0:31:51be hey we need this thing completely
0:31:53custom to us we're cool right you can
0:31:55and turns out they're cool you know with
0:31:57it until did it and everyone was happy
0:32:00except the people who bought the macbook
0:32:01air because was a total turd hi mark
0:32:03it i don't know I i think this what it
0:32:08did the question is as we've been
0:32:10dancing around is this Hardware
0:32:12stagnation that we really need to talk
0:32:14about again because we do need to talk
0:32:16about it is this Hardware stagnation
0:32:18really entails fault or is it apple's
0:32:19fault before we move on to that I'm a
0:32:21few more points on our vs intel like
0:32:24we've talked before about like the the
0:32:25from delta and how anything big enough
0:32:27to be worthwhile and then in past
0:32:29conversations also brought this point
0:32:30will bring up again which is really it's
0:32:32not about the performance Delta the
0:32:33reason Apple be doing it because it is
0:32:34before mr. increased control so i think
0:32:37the real question to ask other than the
0:32:39cost thing which I just brought up for
0:32:41our vs intel is how much more control
0:32:44does moving max arm give Apple then
0:32:47you're currently as we can tell in this
0:32:48case you just pointed out it's a pretty
0:32:50high bar because it's like well of Apple
0:32:53did their own ships they can control
0:32:55everything they will control the
0:32:56schedule they control the features they
0:32:57control everything they possibly do but
0:32:59it seemed like for the past many years
0:33:01Apple controls an awful lot about what
0:33:03Intel does in terms of I don't know
0:33:06forcing the but really strongly
0:33:08suggesting that they improve the
0:33:09embedded gpus in there cpus and making
0:33:12like this this whole a line of products
0:33:14the ones that apple pies with the iris
0:33:15graphics and everything that whole
0:33:16product line just smells like apple
0:33:18saying Intel for the next several
0:33:21generations of chips here's what we want
0:33:22out of your chips and then Intel
0:33:23essentially doing it because Apple is I
0:33:26would imagine the biggest and some cases
0:33:28perhaps the only customer for these
0:33:29weird chips because bought the cheaper
0:33:31x86 windows laptop type things or
0:33:35whatever just like well maybe we'll have
0:33:37a top-of-the-line thing but our bread
0:33:39and butter will be those
0:33:39middle-of-the-road one so just another
0:33:41reason that plastic wait a lot so
0:33:42certainly Apple would have more control
0:33:44with arm but it would cost them a ton of
0:33:47money to make our trips to the mac and
0:33:49Intel thus far seems pretty willing to
0:33:52do essentially whatever Apple wants with
0:33:53the chips it's just a question of
0:33:55delivery and apple could say well the
0:33:57increased control would have even though
0:33:59Intel's pretty nice to us and have a
0:34:00good relationship and they're pretty
0:34:02much willing to do the kinds of things
0:34:03we ask for they take a long time and
0:34:06sometimes they screw up and we looked
0:34:07like if we did it ourselves we would do
0:34:10a better job and the second aspect of
0:34:12this is like
0:34:13for the performance Delta and waiting
0:34:15for things to happen to catch up another
0:34:17possible strategy and possibly mention
0:34:19our past shows is you don't have to
0:34:21worry about it costing so much money to
0:34:23make an ARM chip for your mac all you
0:34:25got to do is wait until the ipad pro is
0:34:27faster than all the existing max and
0:34:29then just use that chip that you've
0:34:31already made for your bread-and-butter
0:34:33iOS devices use that in max too because
0:34:36at that point like it if those lines of
0:34:38across and it's like well yeah and and
0:34:40they're getting close like the top and
0:34:42ipad pro and the bottom end the macbook
0:34:44we're going to look at those numbers in
0:34:45the past like and eventually if things
0:34:50if the rate of change keeps going the
0:34:51way they are and you know that the
0:34:54system and chips that are in iOS devices
0:34:56keep adding more power with a similar
0:34:59power envelope assuming battery
0:35:01technology is only increasing like five
0:35:02or ten percent per year or whatever and
0:35:05that the mac ones are like there-there
0:35:07rate of performance increase is not
0:35:10going up that fast those lines can end
0:35:12up crossing and like all finally we
0:35:14don't have to do some weird extra
0:35:15investment to end up with armed ships
0:35:17that we can use in our laptop max we
0:35:19already do that investment for our
0:35:21phones and iPads and whatever it is that
0:35:23kind of the same way the ipads have
0:35:25these ships like the only reason they
0:35:26have those chips is because they need
0:35:27them for the phones is certainly on the
0:35:28ipad is not human
0:35:29iphone kind of money so that the rising
0:35:32tide of the iphones like anything
0:35:33developed for the iphone that is
0:35:35possibly useful elsewhere even if
0:35:36slightly modified you get a lot of bang
0:35:39for the buck by reusing that huge
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0:38:38your town and people say that place is
0:38:39an institution
0:38:40the macrumors buying guide is an
0:38:43institution in like the mac nerdery I'm
0:38:45sorry alright noobs alright alright
0:38:49grandma and yes that would like to
0:38:52correct anything about mac in touch okay
0:38:54now and so this is this is based on you
0:38:58know just like they look at how often
0:39:00these products are updated and so they
0:39:02know okay well then the macbook pro se
0:39:04is updated on average every you know 400
0:39:07days or whatever it is like they they
0:39:09look back in history into and they know
0:39:10for every product line
0:39:11what is the average interval between
0:39:12updates and that's that's how they can
0:39:14tell you with an you know reasonable
0:39:16degree of approximate so you know the
0:39:18approximate sure to you that like okay
0:39:20well did you know the Mac the Mac Mini
0:39:23is usually updated every what's it like
0:39:25800 takes or whatever I don't know what
0:39:28the average for the mac mini and and
0:39:30it's been seven hundred days since the
0:39:31last one so you probably shouldn't buy
0:39:33one now it's that kind of thing
0:39:34yep the average for the mac mini 438
0:39:36days we are currently running at 643
0:39:39haha yeah that's lower than i would've
0:39:42guessed honestly also this this wet this
0:39:44web site this web page by the way which
0:39:45I encourage everyone to go to only put
0:39:47it in the notes must be the most
0:39:51infuriating webpage like Apple
0:39:53executives and probably still shoulder
0:39:54and particularly like because the at the
0:39:57top of this page
0:39:58especially when you hit like the maktab
0:40:00which will give you the link to it shows
0:40:01the picture all apples current mac
0:40:03products the name of them and underneath
0:40:05it like you said they have these things
0:40:06like oh you should buy neutral don't buy
0:40:08and the mac thing that shows their
0:40:10products right next to the red button
0:40:12say don't buy don't buy don't buy this
0:40:14is exactly the opposite message that
0:40:16wants anywhere that all its products are
0:40:19raid in a big line with the red things
0:40:21that say don't buy can you imagine a
0:40:23more sort of like this really upsetting
0:40:26webpage to people whose job it is to
0:40:28sell macs and I guess you got the green
0:40:30one on the macbook this has by now but
0:40:31it's just it's such a weird thing to see
0:40:33apples product photography next week
0:40:36huge red buttons don't buy it's harsh
0:40:40but harsh but fair
0:40:42it's a good time for the backbone so
0:40:43there's that
0:40:45yeah this is really sad so everything
0:40:48they everything except the macbook one
0:40:49the air the pro the macbook pro the
0:40:52retina MacBook
0:40:53pro kinda forgot there's a distinction
0:40:54there the imac the mac mini the mac pro
0:40:57huh thats 945 days since the last
0:41:02release December 2013 how you guys were
0:41:04so excited
0:41:05remember those days anyway all of this
0:41:07is don't buy and its getting it
0:41:10I know it's getting a little bit
0:41:12ridiculous right on the one side it
0:41:15why does one need a brand-new computer
0:41:18like let's suppose that the CPU was
0:41:20modern which it's not really these days
0:41:24but I mean the industrial design it's
0:41:26this unibody setup has been around for a
0:41:29few years like Stephen Hackett some
0:41:30video review of the kind of history of
0:41:34modern apple laptops goes through this
0:41:37and you know they don't look that
0:41:38different than they have ever used to do
0:41:39they know upgraded the internals made a
0:41:42little thinner you know improved battery
0:41:44life actually wouldn't wouldn't be nice
0:41:45to get that on the iOS side but you know
0:41:48what do you really need from a brand-new
0:41:50computer like if it wasn't for the fact
0:41:52these chips are all getting a little bit
0:41:53long in the tooth
0:41:54I don't think this would be that
0:41:55egregious I'm not looking for a brand
0:41:57new form factor in in my work macbook
0:42:00pro now remind me that when they do
0:42:02something amazing and I must have it but
0:42:04only two months exactly but but I tell
0:42:07you what man this this is sad times and
0:42:09it's just it's gotten to the point i
0:42:12mean looking at these numbers 281 days
0:42:15for her and 28 days for 99 days 643 days
0:42:18945 days with you were measuring years
0:42:20it's unreal like what are they doing how
0:42:25is this okay you know to some degree
0:42:28this isn't just like Santa Claus like
0:42:30you know Santa Apple we we just deserve
0:42:32new things because it's time there has
0:42:34to be something that they update the
0:42:36internals to like you know that and so
0:42:39you have to again look at the supply
0:42:40chain look at Intel especially because
0:42:41that's that's where a lot of this is
0:42:42based you say alright well is there
0:42:45something else that they could be
0:42:47updating to that they're just not like
0:42:49apple doesn't just arbitrarily decide
0:42:52you know what next month we're going to
0:42:54give them a macbook pro update you know
0:42:56like it's based on the schedules of the
0:42:58components that go into it and what they
0:42:59what they could update the components to
0:43:02in recent years intel has had a lot of
0:43:05problems and delays
0:43:06getting there getting a new stuff out
0:43:08and so much this is based on that and we
0:43:10talked about this before so I'm gonna
0:43:11try to repeat too much ground here so a
0:43:13lot of these things are just the news
0:43:15until chips are what's holding this up
0:43:17and they aren't available yet or not
0:43:19available in quantity yet or the ones
0:43:21that apple would use aren't available
0:43:22even though the rest of the family might
0:43:23be and that's the case with a lot of
0:43:25these the products that tend to sell in
0:43:28very high volumes the new macbook the
0:43:30retina macbook pro and the imac tend to
0:43:33be kept up-to-date fairly responsibly if
0:43:36intel has released a new generation of
0:43:39cpus that is the the appropriate size
0:43:42and cost and and heat and power needs
0:43:45for the certain lines Apple tends to
0:43:48update to the men a reasonable amount of
0:43:49time so you know if you're buying like
0:43:52an imac I mean the imac has not been
0:43:54neglected developing a magazine has
0:43:55really been very solidly updated i think
0:43:58for a long time now it's like it's been
0:44:00pretty competitive the macbook pro
0:44:02usually has been we've had some problems
0:44:04recently but usually has been and again
0:44:06those problems are often tells fault
0:44:08where it really becomes a problem is
0:44:11when Apple gets neglectful of of the
0:44:14lines there are more specialized that
0:44:16that presumably don't sound very high
0:44:18volumes and that's things like the mac
0:44:20mini and the mac pro and it also becomes
0:44:22a problem on the lines that Apple is
0:44:24kind of slowly phasing out because
0:44:26they've made better lines that includes
0:44:28things like the macbook air and the non
0:44:30retina macbook pro in these kind of
0:44:32areas apple doesn't use every generation
0:44:35of new stuff that becomes available from
0:44:37Intel this is what I think frustrates a
0:44:39lot of people his Liz you know in the
0:44:41case of the mac pro which is one of the
0:44:43more egregious degrees examples of this
0:44:45news eons that are appropriate for use
0:44:47in the mac pro only come out about every
0:44:4918 months
0:44:50the problem comes that if Apple decides
0:44:53to skip a generation of those if a new
0:44:55generation of Zeon's comes out an apple
0:44:57aside for whatever reason you know that
0:44:59it's not worth updating the mac pro to
0:45:02disney generation
0:45:03not only is it probably already been
0:45:04like 18 months since the last update but
0:45:06now they're they're signed themselves up
0:45:08for another 18 months with no update
0:45:10basically and it could be longer if
0:45:12there's any delay until side which again
0:45:13has been happening with increasing
0:45:15frequency in recent years when they
0:45:17choose to just say you know it's not
0:45:18worth up to this
0:45:20that is really a position of of hubris
0:45:22and and of arrogance and neglect of
0:45:24these products and that is what
0:45:26irritates me about it you know if intel
0:45:28has a problem and it holds up the
0:45:29release of something that has the last
0:45:31generation ships in it like the imac it
0:45:33doesn't bother me as much because I know
0:45:35it's not really apple's fault but when
0:45:36it comes to things like the mac mini the
0:45:37mac pro where Apple could be updating
0:45:40these things they're there were chips
0:45:41they could have used and they just skip
0:45:43them because they just don't care that
0:45:46is infuriating and it really shows a
0:45:48level of disdain for your customers
0:45:50it takes a certain degree of
0:45:52shamelessness and of arrogance and
0:45:55hubris to be still selling the same mac
0:45:58pro today if you walk into the apple
0:46:00store he can still buy the same mac pro
0:46:02today that you could order in December
0:46:03of 2013
0:46:05the price is exactly the same the
0:46:07configurations are exactly the same
0:46:08there have been no new options for this
0:46:10this computer that you said we're you
0:46:12know we're betting the future on high
0:46:14GPU power and then we're not going to
0:46:17update the GPUs for three years or make
0:46:20them upgradeable aftermarket you finally
0:46:22got to my pet issues and all there's no
0:46:24new cpus who cares about the cpu there
0:46:26are new GPU is every single year there
0:46:28are new GPU so if you make you're like
0:46:30well we would update but there's no new
0:46:32Intel CPUs first of all you can upgrade
0:46:34to a higher clock speed 00 CPU designs
0:46:37maybe it's easier to get the guns that
0:46:38have been for our class being second of
0:46:39all every year you almost every year you
0:46:42can upgrade gpus but that doesn't even
0:46:43count like it's not even a consideration
0:46:45and I'd like you're right it's the most
0:46:46absurd on the GPU festooned mac pro
0:46:50machine right now i think it's also
0:46:51absurd on just every other line of
0:46:54computers like even if there is
0:46:55absolutely no new cpu either lower the
0:46:58price for putting a GPU and it or update
0:47:00the chipset trim you know in the olden
0:47:02days USB two three or 330 point 14 like
0:47:05there are things that you can do I mean
0:47:07if you want to see the things that you
0:47:08do who what can you do it updated
0:47:09computer that offer just look at every
0:47:11single pc manufacturer they always find
0:47:13some way to bump the specs little by
0:47:15little I'm not saying Apple should do it
0:47:16like what del does
0:47:18but the idea that there's nothing you
0:47:19can improve the hardware evangelism
0:47:21released a brand new CPU design either a
0:47:23shrink or a new architecture i don't i
0:47:25don't even buy that but I'm willing to
0:47:26say I'm willing to accept that Kayden's
0:47:28if the cpu cadence is reasonable but
0:47:31wants to see you can start going on 18
0:47:32months like i said but then
0:47:33pro don't not only should you not skip
0:47:35generations you shouldn't even wait for
0:47:37the next generation to give it pumps
0:47:38exactly and you know especially for
0:47:40again like for a machine we're going to
0:47:42say this is all about GPU power and
0:47:44you're going to design it to always have
0:47:46two gpus you aren't even going to allow
0:47:47people to buy one GPU and you're gonna
0:47:49put in these kind of like half covered
0:47:51asterisks workstation class GPUs on them
0:47:53you know that and then to not get the
0:47:55GPUs for three years and still be
0:47:57supporting the same price and not like
0:48:00them upgradeable like if you're really
0:48:02going to say the mac pro is all about
0:48:05GPU power they have to be upgradeable
0:48:08aftermarket period and if for some
0:48:11reason you really insist on making them
0:48:14not upgradeable you have to be updating
0:48:16them on a regular basis every night at
0:48:1812 months like there has to be a GPU
0:48:20because that's what competitive energy
0:48:21in the GPU world and for that not to be
0:48:24happening in the mac pro you know Phil
0:48:26Schiller start there and told us about
0:48:27his ass innovation and innovate anymore
0:48:30my ass now there's been nothing it's
0:48:32embarrassing and it really again like I
0:48:35can't understate like how much this it
0:48:37looks like Apple just giving the middle
0:48:39finger to its customers on this on these
0:48:41things if your mac pro buyer if you're a
0:48:43mac mini buyer if your macbook air buyer
0:48:45apple is giving us the giant finger on
0:48:48these things for the last few years and
0:48:50the mac mini is I mean as i mentioned
0:48:52last bit like the mac mini is also
0:48:54especially bad because the previous
0:48:57update which itself was very late in
0:48:59many ways made the product worse so like
0:49:02if you actually measure by days since
0:49:03the mac mini has gotten universally
0:49:05better its much locker number but you
0:49:10know it really is a problem here and and
0:49:12John I think you're right they have to
0:49:13find ways that they can update the
0:49:16computers without waiting for Intel if
0:49:18they're going to be skipping generations
0:49:19and honestly they have to just stop
0:49:22skipping generations because you know
0:49:24the mac mini you know
0:49:25yeah it's a low and computer for them
0:49:27but it isn't alone computer for the
0:49:29people who buy it it's like a thousand
0:49:31dollars at least 44 well-configured one
0:49:33generally for buying the mac mini unless
0:49:35you have some kind of like special you
0:49:37know rule for like buying it to be a
0:49:39server or something else but if you're
0:49:41buying it to be your mac that is a low
0:49:43and Mac you're probably buying it
0:49:44because you can't because you need that
0:49:46value you know that the money
0:49:47matters a lot to you and your kind of
0:49:49stretching to buy it to have the
0:49:50customer experience of wanting to get
0:49:54into a mac and just barely being able to
0:49:55afford one and choose and having to
0:49:57choose a magnet near one of the many for
0:49:58your needs and then to have this this
0:50:00like neglected insulting machine be the
0:50:04one that apple will sell you that is not
0:50:06a way to get more people to buy max that
0:50:08is not a way to get people to be happy
0:50:09but by Mac that's going to hurt customer
0:50:11set Tim's wonderful customer set
0:50:13it's just it's an it's a position of
0:50:14arrogance that plays into all the
0:50:16negative stereotypes about Apple the
0:50:18people have had since the nineties that
0:50:20we keep trying to convince the world as
0:50:23mac owners no it's not like that these
0:50:25really are great computers the great
0:50:26values and overpriced apples are helping
0:50:28us at all here because they're showing
0:50:30this incredible neglect and some of
0:50:33these ancient computers that they could
0:50:35have updated like I'm not talking about
0:50:37the ones where the way to an intel talk
0:50:39about the ones that they skip
0:50:40generations forever
0:50:41they just they have to stop skipping the
0:50:43generations for every product line
0:50:45because you know what if it isn't worth
0:50:46updating the mac pro for a xeon
0:50:50generation that comes out every 18
0:50:51months
0:50:52this is like a 3000 + dollar computer if
0:50:56it isn't worth updating that the
0:50:57discontinued thing you know it don't
0:50:59don't even don't sell computers that you
0:51:02that you are not willing to maintain to
0:51:04a basic level of maintenance here that
0:51:06is just insulting and by the way one
0:51:08more quick thing before I forget
0:51:09right now there's a whole bunch of very
0:51:13high-end buyers that are building
0:51:15high-end computers with lots of GPU
0:51:18power because they want to use vr when
0:51:21was the last time that people really
0:51:24wanted to buy in large numbers very
0:51:26high-end desktop computers lots of GPU
0:51:29power
0:51:29I mean yes there's always been pc gamers
0:51:31but that's always been a pretty you know
0:51:33pretty narrow market relative to the
0:51:34entire you know pc market as a whole
0:51:36right now there is a surge of people who
0:51:40want to buy high-end desktop class
0:51:42hardware and big GPUs and apple is
0:51:45completely missing out on this some of
0:51:48those people might have bought mac pro
0:51:49so they're competitive but they're not
0:51:51apples totally missing out on this wave
0:51:53people buying high and stuff and yeah
0:51:55their numbers might not be very big but
0:51:56they're very very profitable this market
0:51:58is extremely profitable
0:51:59an apple just completely blowing it they
0:52:02have blown this opportunity that only
0:52:04comes around maybe every 10 years or
0:52:05there's a lot of people who actually
0:52:06need high-end hardware you know for
0:52:09years we keep saying like oh well you
0:52:11know I i can get away just fine with
0:52:12with my four-year-old you know 13-inch
0:52:14macbook pro because most people most
0:52:16needs on your computer pretty basic
0:52:18these days with me with modern hardware
0:52:20vr need every bit of power can get and
0:52:23again these opportunities don't come
0:52:24very often in the market where people
0:52:26actually need high-end hardware and are
0:52:29willing to buy it and in in substantial
0:52:31numbers and apple just missed it because
0:52:34they just don't care and that's really
0:52:35unfortunate and it pains me as a fan of
0:52:38this company as a fan of high-end
0:52:40hardware it really pains me to see the
0:52:42level of neglect and arrogance hear that
0:52:45Apple has shown its pro customers and
0:52:48all its customers honestly so let's
0:52:52assume for a second i know you've talked
0:52:53a lot about how a lot of these are not
0:52:57Intel's faults and i agree with you
0:52:59there but let's assume for a second that
0:53:01some of these are well don't you think
0:53:04it will let me change that how i phrase
0:53:07that isn't there a way that Apple could
0:53:09kind of hint subversively could kind of
0:53:12you do one of their people familiar with
0:53:14the matter told the Wall Street Journal
0:53:16that this is all Intel's fault like why
0:53:18has a wise an apple someway somehow
0:53:20blame didn't tell for this even quietly
0:53:24if that makes any sense
0:53:25that's not something that Apple does
0:53:26it's not an apple move in general like
0:53:29they have problems with suppliers which
0:53:30they have all the time they find
0:53:31alternate suppliers but they don't think
0:53:33I'm gonna throw this applies under the
0:53:34bus they don't even want to know the
0:53:35supplies existing yes we all know Intel
0:53:37exist but I if it was Steve Jobs maybe
0:53:40and especially if they had a new
0:53:42supplier lined up like as soon as in
0:53:44they switched Intel then it was all
0:53:45about throw powerpc IBM under the bus
0:53:48but right up until that point it was
0:53:51like IBM g5 everything is great and
0:53:54you know they're gonna have it in three
0:53:56guards and and 12 months or whatever
0:53:58that promise was that he made on stage
0:54:00never happened
0:54:01I don't know I really don't think it's
0:54:02that an apple style move to to shift the
0:54:05blame apple accepts responsibility of
0:54:07like they're they're the ones that
0:54:08control their product lines they're not
0:54:09going to blame the manufacturer even
0:54:12like member whatever that courts plants
0:54:13was that was supposed to make them
0:54:14courts things for some reason and that
0:54:16whole thing imploded and went bankrupt
0:54:18or whatever
0:54:19sfr your sapphire whatever they dig it's
0:54:22that happened and we know about it
0:54:24because it was public news but it's not
0:54:25as if Apple is putting out print this is
0:54:28not an apple move to put out a press
0:54:29release that blames other companies for
0:54:32apples failure to deliver its products
0:54:33the closest you'll get is you know
0:54:36thoughts on flash where it's like well
0:54:38we ship products like this isn't
0:54:40stopping us from shipping product or
0:54:42changing our products we think this
0:54:43technology is crappy for everybody we
0:54:45got the closest I've seen in the modern
0:54:48you know Apple era but i also like you
0:54:50know Apple is not going to want to admit
0:54:53any kind of public way even if it's
0:54:55through unofficial channels like that
0:54:56they're not going to even suggest the
0:54:59possibility that the mac line is old and
0:55:02stale and it's a problem yeah there's no
0:55:04they don't have those status bars on
0:55:05their website that has and like that's
0:55:08the word like we know like it's a smart
0:55:10move it's an apple move to not drop the
0:55:12price your products because all about
0:55:13perceived value
0:55:15ah not dragging the prospects for the
0:55:17whole year
0:55:18that's what separates you know apple
0:55:19from dell I dealt with that they're
0:55:21making the same thing and there are
0:55:22costs of good savings they will lower
0:55:23the price to get more enterprise sales
0:55:25and whatever blood Apple walk right not
0:55:28dropping the price for free year three
0:55:29years like who are you kidding now like
0:55:31that's that stops being we're preserving
0:55:34value that starts being just like Marco
0:55:36said punitive to your customers and
0:55:38you're not fooling anybody
0:55:39no one who knows anything thanks that
0:55:412013 mac pro that they're still selling
0:55:43for the same price is worth anything
0:55:45close that price it is ridiculous i'm
0:55:49very curious to see what happens this
0:55:50fall because all signs are pointing to
0:55:52this fall being when they that when they
0:55:54right these wrongs I came out and I
0:55:57can't imagine the complete meltdown that
0:56:01all of us are going to have I would say
0:56:03the pundits but i think we will all melt
0:56:05down the three of us well if there's eat
0:56:08are nothing new or extremely
0:56:10underwhelming things as this fall on the
0:56:13flip side is all forgiven if something
0:56:16at least moderately exciting happens
0:56:18this fall
0:56:19I mean we all have very very short
0:56:21memories and even shorter attention
0:56:22spans
0:56:23if they do this fancy function row oled
0:56:28screen thing that was talked about a
0:56:30couple of months back
0:56:31you know there were something else
0:56:32that's new and fancy or are they
0:56:34forgiving is that it we're done we're
0:56:36good here
0:56:37yeah it depends on the product line that
0:56:39that they do it too and whether that's
0:56:40the one you've been waiting for is a
0:56:42customer or not you know like it by by
0:56:44making a major upgrade to the macbook
0:56:46pro that's that's good they should be
0:56:48doing at the macbook pro is is probably
0:56:50there is one of the most commonly
0:56:52selling models
0:56:53certainly it's probably the
0:56:54highest-profile model or the most common
0:56:57model among high-profile buyers you know
0:56:59the macbook pro is a very important part
0:57:01that's great and they should be on that
0:57:03he really should but if you're one of
0:57:06the people who've been sitting around
0:57:07waiting for mac pro or Mac Mini or
0:57:08macbook air update then that's not gonna
0:57:11be very satisfying to you because it's
0:57:13like well okay that that's nice I you
0:57:14know I macbook air maybe not as much
0:57:16because the new one is probably closer
0:57:18to it in size and weight but if your
0:57:20desktop users that are waiting for Mac
0:57:21Miller Mac Pro whether they update the
0:57:24macbook pro riders is not incredibly
0:57:25relevant to you and and how happy you
0:57:27are with the lineup and by the way i
0:57:29would expect neither mac mini nor mac
0:57:32pro this fall mac mini simply because
0:57:34they don't care they hate their
0:57:35customers macro because it's falling
0:57:38inconveniently between Broadwell even
0:57:40skyline key I think they've waited this
0:57:41long they're probably go straight to
0:57:42skylight which is not a bad plan it you
0:57:45know if there's not a macro out now like
0:57:48it with broad well II then you might as
0:57:50well wait for Scott lucky that's a major
0:57:51upgrade and you already missed the broad
0:57:53well wave and you know what what they
0:57:56should be doing is releasing every
0:57:57generation but if if you're gonna see if
0:58:00you find yourself in in you know late
0:58:022016 and you still haven't made a macpro
0:58:04update don't make one now with Broadwell
0:58:06make one with sky like I i wouldn't give
0:58:08that is what I can't talk about the case
0:58:09you're saying like it's all forgiven i
0:58:11think it's more about regaining trust
0:58:12and what would what make you know what
0:58:15would bring some trust back is not just
0:58:17saying hey we finally updated the
0:58:18macbooks because you know there
0:58:19right yeah it's gonna be good and people
0:58:21are going to buy a lot of them and may
0:58:22you know I was gonna be happy you know
0:58:24they're gonna do that but that doesn't
0:58:25regain any trust because what you're
0:58:28looking for is a new pattern of behavior
0:58:31not merely oh we didn't update these
0:58:32computers for a long time and everyone
0:58:34was sad but hey here's new update
0:58:35everything is great
0:58:36like what you want to see is a new
0:58:38update followed by another new timely
0:58:40update may be followed by another one
0:58:42and then you would have your faith
0:58:43restored and to restore faith in
0:58:45something of a macpro situation I think
0:58:46what you have to do is at the very least
0:58:49put out a new mac pro with the same cpus
0:58:51but better gpus or put out a Broadway
0:58:54mac pro that you already spent time
0:58:55developing internally even though you
0:58:57know you're going to replace it with a
0:58:58skylight and also in the broad well you
0:59:00won't have new gpus like and it's like
0:59:02well well that's such a big change you
0:59:04can regain that trust as quickly as
0:59:05possible by saying Broadwell macbook
0:59:07barbell mac pro with new gpus sky like
0:59:10mac pro with new gpus those two releases
0:59:12would be like oh hey I get that both
0:59:14updating this computer again and now
0:59:15it's safe to buy and it's no longer
0:59:16embarrassing and that's such a turn from
0:59:19their current thing of like skip a
0:59:21generation
0:59:22maybe skip one mortgage that by this
0:59:23point the new ones are going to come out
0:59:25it's like you can always say it's like
0:59:26we've waited so long to get the was
0:59:28gonna come out to like well this the sky
0:59:30like once we're not really ready to do
0:59:31that now its work on those and you're
0:59:33working on the sky like was like well
0:59:35maybe wait another year for Thunderbolt
0:59:36for to come out he would always wait
0:59:38happened release new versions of the
0:59:40product and the way to regain trust is
0:59:43to show a new pattern of behavior and
0:59:46one data point does not make a line you
0:59:48need to have multiple data points say
0:59:49not only have they revised computer
0:59:52again but because if you were to tell
0:59:53them new macros are going to come out
0:59:55the beginning of next year and there
0:59:56won't be another new mac pro for three
0:59:58years would you invest in this life
0:59:58years would you invest in this life
1:00:00if computers it is like well I don't
1:00:03want that cadence I don't like that even
1:00:05if i buy all my computers now like if i
1:00:08get a new employee in a year
1:00:09don't have to buy them a year old Mac
1:00:10Pro if i get an employee in two years
1:00:12that have to buy them a two year old Mac
1:00:13Pro like the three-year Cannes is not
1:00:15acceptable so they have to establish new
1:00:17pattern of behavior and the way to most
1:00:19quickly establishing pattern behaviour
1:00:21rapid-fire releases and for the mac pro
1:00:22it's right in front of them new GPU is
1:00:24Broadwell the sky like energy use and
1:00:27all those things you could do three new
1:00:29revisions of the mac pro between now and
1:00:30the sky like one and that will go a long
1:00:32way to show I mean that's kind of
1:00:33ridiculous but that was a long way
1:00:35although delwood to it to showing that
1:00:37you are dedicated to this product line
1:00:39again and for the other ones because
1:00:42they are kind of like an annual cycle
1:00:43like the mac mini has never had the
1:00:45trust so you're not losing the trust
1:00:46their other than the crappy revision
1:00:48that took away the course right but it
1:00:50was never really there but for the
1:00:51macbooks and stuffs like really but that
1:00:53your your laptop's those are your most
1:00:55portable max and even those are getting
1:00:57long in the tooth this it's not a not a
1:00:59good looks like it's I wish they'd shown
1:01:01that page not just the gaps and
1:01:03everything but like a graphs where you
1:01:04could see that they were kind of in a
1:01:06steady kind of pattern then here's this
1:01:08new aberration from the pattern and you
1:01:10have to restore that pattern to restore
1:01:12the faith in the product line if you
1:01:15scroll down to each of the individual
1:01:17like details
1:01:18it shows recent releases and there's
1:01:20individual like bar charts for each
1:01:22release so you can get you can get a
1:01:25sort of hint as to what what's the
1:01:29normal is so you can see for the imac
1:01:31for example the may 2011 update was 577
1:01:36days since the prior one but every other
1:01:39one looks like it was about 200 to 300
1:01:43days you see what i mean so you can even
1:01:45get a rough guess just by looking at
1:01:48these graphs
1:01:49yeah and a lot of these I mean it's kind
1:01:51of sad how much seem to stop in 2012
1:01:54I I just this makes me so sad it
1:01:56honestly like you know I know I know
1:01:59it's kind of you know improper to talk
1:02:01this simply and and broadly but it looks
1:02:04like team coach doesn't like the mac
1:02:05very much and I hope that's not it i
1:02:08hope that's not the reason for all this
1:02:10and I hope it's not true but that's how
1:02:12it looks it looks like tim cook
1:02:13care about the mac it doesn't have had
1:02:15to do is work I know
1:02:17yeah the ipad is the future of computing
1:02:18like I I'm not as if that's what he's
1:02:21making decisions based on our units
1:02:22decisions that if if he was making
1:02:24decisions based on us it would be purely
1:02:25based on how much money they cost to
1:02:27developer so much money to bring for the
1:02:28company and how much potential future
1:02:29revenue and blah blah blah i really
1:02:31don't think he's making decisions based
1:02:32on what computers he likes because that
1:02:33doesn't seem like his role in the
1:02:34company but bottom line numbers stuff
1:02:37was his bag before he became CEO and i
1:02:40would imagine that it you know any
1:02:43moment he does have in this would be
1:02:44related to that but I more more likely
1:02:48these decisions are made down a level
1:02:50below and he just gives it ok on it
1:02:52yeah but it but it is it is kind of like
1:02:54the Tim Cook way to just keep old stuff
1:02:57around just keep selling it you know
1:03:00because that still makes good enough
1:03:01money and that that's how the whole Mac
1:03:03lineup looks right now and again some of
1:03:05these families that's Intel's fault but
1:03:08a lot of them it's not it looks like
1:03:09Apple has made the calculus to say you
1:03:11know we don't really need to update the
1:03:13mac very often they still sell anyway
1:03:15and so we just won't just let it sit
1:03:18there and he knows that's not true like
1:03:21this last quarter of Maxwell's was
1:03:22dismal and you know that was happening
1:03:23before was happening like this is this
1:03:25is a but it's not like any true he knows
1:03:28it's not true
1:03:29yeah i would like they know the numbers
1:03:30to do before they announce that all
1:03:32things they do projections they have
1:03:33estimations they see they're not going
1:03:35to get their numbers we find out in
1:03:36their earnings calls when they know well
1:03:38before that and that is the point where
1:03:40maybe they have strategic planning your
1:03:42replanting meetings and saying look
1:03:43we're not gonna even come close to
1:03:44hitting are expected numbers for max
1:03:46it's gonna look bad
1:03:47what we want to do and that's where they
1:03:48say can this product line provides this
1:03:50one move this project up at more funny
1:03:52that i don't know i'm i'm fantasizing
1:03:53about how things are done is that Apple
1:03:55but like it it's the the idea that the
1:03:59the anyone in the company thinks that
1:04:01you can just make like these lines and
1:04:02nothing will happen
1:04:03we all know that's not true by now an
1:04:05apple no way before we did do you think
1:04:07the new 18 months ago and decided to
1:04:09skip a generation of these various cpus
1:04:10about the delayed time is so huge that
1:04:13you like this unit it's a is a trailing
1:04:15indicator of whether yeah
1:04:17using the right i think where you find
1:04:19out how long after the decisions that
1:04:20led to it had been made and the new
1:04:22decisions you make now aren't going to
1:04:23manifest for a while so that's just the
1:04:26nature of the beast here but yeah I mean
1:04:29like this about regaining trust we know
1:04:33that even if they made the decision year
1:04:35ago
1:04:35we're not going to see the results of
1:04:36the decisions for a long time so we just
1:04:38sit back and wait and you know show us
1:04:41with your actions that you know which
1:04:42product lines you care about which ones
1:04:44are quote unquote safe to buy safe to
1:04:46invest in for individual users less
1:04:49important for individual users it's like
1:04:50you just by soon as they're revives like
1:04:52you wait a little bit to make sure
1:04:53they're not lemons there's no systemic
1:04:55problems with the with the things and
1:04:57then you buy it and as far as an
1:04:58individual is concerned you're fine as
1:05:00long as when you decide to buy a new
1:05:03computer that actually is a new one for
1:05:04you to buy that is different than the
1:05:05one you already bought but for
1:05:07institutions are people to buy a lot of
1:05:09them like something over the company
1:05:10with a bunch of people doing like Maya
1:05:13on their mac pros and they staff up for
1:05:16a big project and they have an occasion
1:05:19to buy new computers and they will be
1:05:21sad if they're buying the same computers
1:05:23they bought a year or two years or three
1:05:24years ago for the same price
1:05:26it just doesn't seem right
1:05:28technologically speaking it's like oh
1:05:29well you know it's been three years
1:05:32since i bought my computer you new
1:05:34employee will have such a fancy computer
1:05:35will be great like we can't afford to
1:05:37revise all our computers every year but
1:05:38we bring new employees they get a new
1:05:40and now you have the same as that
1:05:41computer i did that's great
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1:07:50indochino your look your way
1:07:56I have a question specifically for Marco
1:07:59you had written probably like a year ago
1:08:02a tool that will take several audio
1:08:06files say from your co-host and your own
1:08:09and stitch them together and laura
1:08:11dotson together but line them up so
1:08:13we're not on different parts of the
1:08:14episode at the same moment right so
1:08:17you're synched up thinking of time wise
1:08:19i was thinking about this week or two
1:08:21ago how the hell are you doing that
1:08:23because we don't all hit the record
1:08:26button at the same moment and I was try
1:08:30was debating with myself okay well how's
1:08:32he doing it is he just looking for it
1:08:35and it's all you know algorithmic it and
1:08:36so is he just looking for like some peak
1:08:38in one and then trying to find the same
1:08:40peak in the other and I wasn't sure how
1:08:43this worked and so what is this tool and
1:08:45how the hell did you do it before Marco
1:08:48explains we should all say that we don't
1:08:49do that embarrassing clap thing with
1:08:50some other podcasters naming any names
1:08:54here met yet so it it for what it's
1:08:57worth a lot of shows when you're on the
1:08:59show will count down and say okay we're
1:09:02all gonna clap 123 and then everyone
1:09:03claps and that's their peak that the
1:09:05editor uses to line up the the two or
1:09:08more sides which is bogus because of
1:09:10audio driftwood market will explain soon
1:09:11yeah so I just I was really curious
1:09:14because this is a fascinating technical
1:09:16problem and yeah it's a little inside
1:09:17baseball but it's a fascinating
1:09:19technical problem to solve regardless of
1:09:21the fact that happens too late to
1:09:22podcasting so how to solve it i should
1:09:24clarify before i start here that I
1:09:27didn't do any research of course I
1:09:32didn't do any research beforehand on
1:09:33like how this problem should be solved
1:09:36how other things on this problem there
1:09:38are very few audio tools that do solve
1:09:41this problem but it's pretty common
1:09:42high-end video recording after the idea
1:09:44is you know if you if you're on a video
1:09:46shoot you probably a recording audio off
1:09:51camera you're probably recording audio
1:09:52through some other device and audio
1:09:54recorder mix or whatever else you need
1:09:56to then sync up the audio with the video
1:09:58or you to sync multiple cameras video
1:10:01and editing so you can switch between
1:10:02the cameras and sink it all to the
1:10:04master audio track so video apps have
1:10:07had like Final Cut does this i'm pretty
1:10:09sure i don't
1:10:10watch my video but video have had ways
1:10:12to do this for a long time where they
1:10:13will take in that they will use audio
1:10:15and they will be able to sync audio and
1:10:17video between multiple tracks everything
1:10:18what I wanted was a very basic command
1:10:21line tool to do this so that i could put
1:10:23it in as like part of my shell script to
1:10:25process all your files through ffmpeg
1:10:27whatever else normalize the format and
1:10:28get them all and basically take your
1:10:30like you know inconvenient call recorder
1:10:33files and whatever else and output a set
1:10:36of sync fully synced & undrafted wav
1:10:39files that importance of logic and edit
1:10:41this summit podcasters if you're doing
1:10:44if you're just recording skype from your
1:10:46computer and that's it and that's use
1:10:49those are the tracks you don't really
1:10:50need to do this because everything is
1:10:51all synced up but if you if you're doing
1:10:54what's called like a double ender method
1:10:56where like each each end of the each
1:10:59person on on the call record their own
1:11:01track locally like we do it sounds way
1:11:03better and you it affords you a great
1:11:05deal of flexibility and editing for
1:11:06shows for more than two people on them
1:11:07but this is a problem you have reason to
1:11:10think otherwise files ok drift is
1:11:12another problem
1:11:13this is really down the weeds and I'm
1:11:15sorry this is boring anybody so i'll try
1:11:16to be quick
1:11:17basically your audio interface you know
1:11:19whatever recording you whether it's the
1:11:21micro no sound whatever your audio
1:11:23interface record a certain number of
1:11:25samples per second so a minus in the
1:11:28numbers 44 kilohertz 441 kilohertz like
1:11:31that's the number of samples per second
1:11:33that is recording into your wave file
1:11:35the problem is that computers are not
1:11:37perfect these are not you know these
1:11:39these all come down to these little
1:11:40analog electronic components and nothing
1:11:43is perfect because everything has to be
1:11:45cheap and amazing and work all the time
1:11:46and so what what the computer thinks is
1:11:50you know x times per second will
1:11:53actually very very slightly between
1:11:55different devices between different
1:11:57computers you know whatever it whatever
1:11:59sharing the clock signal to say this is
1:12:01that I'm taking 44100 samples per second
1:12:04every computer clock is going to be very
1:12:05slightly different and it might be like
1:12:08point zero zero one percent off of yours
1:12:11but over the course of a to our podcast
1:12:14you could be off by like a full second
1:12:18by the end and so it would if you sync
1:12:20up the tracks at the beginning if you
1:12:22say I everyone clap
1:12:23and then we'll sink those collapse go to
1:12:26go an hour later in the podcast and you
1:12:29will hear that people are no longer
1:12:31lined up properly there they'll be like
1:12:33a second off or something and that's
1:12:34because of this of this difference in
1:12:36clocks in the actual analog hardware
1:12:39like the the thing that is generated a
1:12:41clock signal X times per second is just
1:12:43you know point zero zero one percent off
1:12:45of what yours was my tool was designed
1:12:50to solve both of these problems make
1:12:52something that is that is that fixes
1:12:54drift and that they know basically an
1:12:56basically sinks the file throughout the
1:12:58whole file like it since everything up
1:12:59and i just put these these wavelengths
1:13:01is important to my editor and then do
1:13:03nothing else to in that way and move on
1:13:06to the content because i want the
1:13:09podcast that I produce to sound as great
1:13:12as they possibly can sound I want them
1:13:13to have incredibly incredible high
1:13:15production values because basically I
1:13:17value you know the listeners I value
1:13:19your time I value your attention and I
1:13:21want to make sure the show sounds good
1:13:22to its easiest as possible and most
1:13:24pleasant for you to listen to you know
1:13:26making making this double ender
1:13:28recording method work well and quickly
1:13:30for me was very important so I said to
1:13:32make this thing that would line up all
1:13:34the tracks it slices of the file into
1:13:38you know it looks at a whole bunch of
1:13:39points that the file but its first out
1:13:40just in the middle and it tries to line
1:13:42up the middle so we can just get an
1:13:43approximate lineup for the whole file
1:13:45and it does this not by finding peaks
1:13:48necessarily but it's a little more
1:13:50involved in that it uses the fast
1:13:53Fourier transform fft to break the audio
1:13:57into frequencies rather than just like
1:13:59the up-and-down wave that you see like a
1:14:00wave editor it breaks down and
1:14:02frequencies for each segment so it'll
1:14:03take like a certain number of
1:14:05milliseconds and say what is the
1:14:07frequency breakdown of this for every
1:14:10little slice it takes it kinda get it
1:14:13makes a little like hash of this chunk
1:14:16of the file to say for this little
1:14:18millisecond slice
1:14:19what is the dominant frequency and it
1:14:23can if you think about like you know it
1:14:24let's suppose a transit transit into a
1:14:26ski for simplicity's sake you can say
1:14:29all right well this second of audio had
1:14:32the frequency like you know a FG you
1:14:35know I get what we
1:14:36it has it for every little slice it
1:14:38takes in that second it can basically
1:14:40build like a string and say alright well
1:14:41this is the dominant frequency of this
1:14:44slice of audio and then if you can
1:14:46imagine just sliding that up and down
1:14:49across a window of time so if you can
1:14:51say these files are probably lined up
1:14:54within 15 minutes
1:14:55like did we probably hit record within
1:14:5715 minutes of each other yes
1:14:58so there's a certain it defines a window
1:15:01and says alright well within this window
1:15:03just literally slide this around slide
1:15:06this hack so i have made of this little
1:15:08bit of audio here slide this around
1:15:10until you find the point in this range
1:15:14that it had it is the least different
1:15:16from a reference track and the reference
1:15:20track is simply it's the skype recording
1:15:23basically it is the recording of all of
1:15:25us talking so the reference track is a
1:15:27rather than trying to take these random
1:15:28files and say you know sink this to your
1:15:31ear just figure out what sounds right
1:15:33all of this is it's based on take all
1:15:37these input files from each of our
1:15:38microphones and sink them to the
1:15:40reference track that contains all of us
1:15:42and then just delete the reference track
1:15:44because then you'll have the the
1:15:45pristine awesome version of all of us
1:15:47are microphones instead of the crappy
1:15:49skype version of all of us and that's so
1:15:51it basically uses this fft to just like
1:15:54slide around and build a little hashes
1:15:57of each segment of audio and find out
1:15:59where they line up so first lines up the
1:16:01middle with very very high precision and
1:16:04then it goes throughout the whole rest
1:16:06of the file and it goes i think right
1:16:09now I have it doing it in like 10 just
1:16:11like ten percent increments like you
1:16:12know there's like so that nine other
1:16:13ones after the middle was lined up go to
1:16:16the beginning and go to the end and go
1:16:18to the steps in the middle
1:16:19how far off is the synchronization at
1:16:22those points because thing about drift
1:16:24is it tends to be fairly constant you
1:16:27know your your clock variation in those
1:16:29and how fast your your your computer's
1:16:31clock measures that time slice that
1:16:34tends to be fixed or close enough to fix
1:16:36during a two-hour podcast it then it
1:16:38goes to the ends of this scale and says
1:16:41alright well middle were perfectly lined
1:16:42up now at the beginning we are like
1:16:45point five seconds off negative negative
1:16:4815 seconds at
1:16:49the end we are point five seconds ahead
1:16:52so that means that in this time span
1:16:55we've gone from negative 52 plus
1:16:56negative 5 plus point five so that it
1:16:58basically builds you know based on
1:17:01looking at the whole file looking at
1:17:02these averages of this rate it
1:17:04interpolates an average drift for the
1:17:06whole file and it says alright well this
1:17:08looks like we are gaining point 1
1:17:11seconds adrift per hour or you know
1:17:14whatever the rate is based on you know
1:17:16looking at all the different points in
1:17:17the file once the middle is line so then
1:17:19it just goes the beginning there was the
1:17:21beginning we'll fix that and then
1:17:23throughout the file we know we know how
1:17:25many seconds per hour or whatever we
1:17:28have to do insert or remove to sync this
1:17:31up properly so in PA it uses you know
1:17:34basic audio stuff to find periods of
1:17:37silence and use I'm pretty good deal
1:17:40with silence now
1:17:41yeah use the silence to insert or remove
1:17:44padding at opportune times where you
1:17:47won't notice and that is how it said
1:17:50that's how it's done drifts the files
1:17:51that smart as hell and the vast majority
1:17:53of the time it works and because it is
1:17:55using dominant frequencies as like the
1:17:59way to tell whether things are similar
1:18:01it is fairly immune to the volume
1:18:04differences because like the skype track
1:18:06is going to have a very different volume
1:18:07level then whatever microphone file you
1:18:08gave me it's also going to be way lower
1:18:10fidelity it's gonna happen it's gonna be
1:18:12like you know weird and possibly
1:18:15distorted in subtle ways but dominant
1:18:18frequencies tend to be the same
1:18:20regardless of you know how how you're
1:18:22gonna that's what you're hearing like it
1:18:23sounds off with the same it's gonna it's
1:18:25gonna match up pretty closely in the in
1:18:28the file and in in the frequency hashing
1:18:31thing and then so it's just in and
1:18:33because it's like i'm honestly looking
1:18:35to the exact match
1:18:36I'm just you give me a window in which i
1:18:38will likely i'm likely to find this and
1:18:40I will find like the closest match and
1:18:42then I used no confidence ratings and
1:18:43all the stuff so that's how it works
1:18:46I i wrote this I don't know two years
1:18:48ago maybe i did awhile ago and I've
1:18:51basically not touched in a few a few
1:18:54friends of ours it's kind of like a
1:18:56private alpha a few friends of ours use
1:18:58it to to edit their shows and I i have
1:19:00almost never have to touch the algorithm
1:19:01since writing it
1:19:03only the main reasons i have not
1:19:05released this yet are that there are few
1:19:07bugs but it's it's not usually bugs in
1:19:10finding in lining it up in fact the the
1:19:14rate at which your property lines things
1:19:15up is shockingly good the the main bugs
1:19:19are around things like you know well if
1:19:21one file is like 30 minutes shorter than
1:19:23the other one like a it might they might
1:19:25not line up there you might not
1:19:26understand properly because it like try
1:19:28to interpolate a value from Carlisle
1:19:30doesn't feel like there's there's some
1:19:32cleanup work needed to be done to make
1:19:34this a general usefulness really simple
1:19:36tool it would also be nice if it had a
1:19:39GUI because most people want a graphical
1:19:42interface for their applications most
1:19:43people don't want to have binaries that
1:19:45you can use from a shell script that's a
1:19:47book so that that's why this is not out
1:19:50yet and the market for special thing is
1:19:53is extremely small because it's a tool
1:19:55for podcasters and so it's hard to
1:19:57charge money and make any money from
1:19:58that and so you know I don't know I
1:20:00don't know I don't go we'll figure that
1:20:02out later i guess but i do eventually
1:20:04plan to release this because it is an
1:20:06incredibly useful tool for anybody who
1:20:09does double ending podcasting where
1:20:11you're recording local local tracks from
1:20:13people and I think the world of
1:20:15podcasting will be better off if more
1:20:17people did that and making that easier
1:20:18is therefore working towards that goal
1:20:21because one thing I really don't like
1:20:24it's a podcast listener is I should
1:20:28never know that your podcast is recorded
1:20:31with skype and what that means is I
1:20:34should never hear you talking about
1:20:35skype i should never hear skype drop out
1:20:38if there's a skype dropout you have to
1:20:39you have to worry about that needs to be
1:20:41cut from the show all discussion on
1:20:42skype should be cut from the show I
1:20:44should never H I should never know who's
1:20:46listening to you skype and I also
1:20:48shouldn't be hearing skype artifact when
1:20:50your comfort when when like somebody's
1:20:52connection is going along here take a
1:20:53little walk and they start degrading the
1:20:55bit rate down and starting a little bit
1:20:57worse little more telephonic you start
1:20:59getting worse and worse and worse and
1:21:00then you hear upgrading get better and
1:21:02better better like that was fine five
1:21:05years ago now we've moved on
1:21:07we know how to do things better now so
1:21:09podcasting should now be it we should I
1:21:12want to raise the bar like the the local
1:21:15and local recording
1:21:16should be the norm now in most cases and
1:21:18yes there are some cases where you need
1:21:20to use skype for practical reasons
1:21:21things like if you have a guest call-in
1:21:23show we're having a different guests
1:21:25every week like getting people
1:21:26microphones is already a big pan
1:21:28it's hard enough dealing with that so
1:21:29you know it's you know that there's
1:21:32certain exceptions to this but for the
1:21:34most part like if you're doing the same
1:21:35show every week with the same people i
1:21:37should never ever know that use skype so
1:21:40that's why I made this tool that's why I
1:21:42made it to save myself time hopefully
1:21:44will save more people time in the future
1:21:45make podcasting better i was kind of my
1:21:47overall goal for everything i do these
1:21:49days but it's gonna be a lot of work
1:21:51before this is in a releasable state you
1:21:54know it's funny what you said about
1:21:55never knowing that that skype was used
1:21:57because i feel like we do a really good
1:21:59job of that unless my imac that I swear
1:22:02isn't broken breaks in which case that's
1:22:06exactly why we had to use my guess was
1:22:09your recording of me for the first half
1:22:12of that show exactly and people
1:22:14justifiably we were fairly either
1:22:16confused too perturbed by it and I don't
1:22:18blame them it sounded like garbage and i
1:22:21still feel terribly guilty about that
1:22:23and then that is exactly what we're
1:22:25trying to avoid it's all your fault
1:22:26Casey it's not too bad and that's fine
1:22:30it was 20 minutes it was you know if it
1:22:32happened every week I'd be mad
1:22:34yeah but you know if it happens once in
1:22:35like a three-year run of a show
1:22:37it's not that particular know that
1:22:40that's really really interesting what
1:22:41was this written in the sea or yeah it's
1:22:44it uses objective-c its objective c
1:22:47binary food that you access five
1:22:49terminal so like it had access to
1:22:51foundation and everything but when all
1:22:53the coral the core logic and it uses the
1:22:56accelerate framework uses all the all
1:22:58the cool vsp functions for ft and
1:23:02everything and of course it runs in
1:23:03parallel so it you know this is one
1:23:05reason i like using computers lots of
1:23:07course because a lot of tools that I
1:23:09either use or make and use use principal
1:23:12dispatch to work in parallel very very
1:23:14effectively and this is like this is the
1:23:16perfect problem to paralyze it's like
1:23:19all right well take this one input file
1:23:20and just analyze all these different
1:23:22chunks and then at the end figure out
1:23:24which one had the best score that's so
1:23:26easy to paralyze so of course it does
1:23:28and
1:23:29it makes all my fans and it's just
1:23:30awesome now this is this is really
1:23:32really cool and as someone who works on
1:23:37kind of regular software both in past
1:23:41jobs in my current job I definitely get
1:23:43to solve old problems but not this kind
1:23:45of cool that that's super super
1:23:47interesting and super neat so your
1:23:50long-term plan you're still kicking the
1:23:52tires on releasing I mean I know you
1:23:55said you want to release it what is that
1:23:56like is that in the next month in the
1:23:59next six months in the next six years
1:24:00what do you think it is incredibly
1:24:03unlikely to be the next month i would
1:24:05say six months maybe a year more likely
1:24:09but i don't know it depends on what like
1:24:11even when some doing really you know i
1:24:13i'm i'm already working on my my other
1:24:15my production tool for putting in
1:24:17chapters and stuff like a morgue that's
1:24:19a different this is that this is a
1:24:20different app so there's that and I have
1:24:23you know I have this collection of the
1:24:25shell script that does all sorts of
1:24:26other useful things like compress and
1:24:28decompress logic projects there's all
1:24:31sorts of crazy to fight that I have for
1:24:32making podcasting easier and so there's
1:24:34always this kind of debate of like you
1:24:36know which of these things could I or
1:24:37should I make into a product and with
1:24:39these things you just a shell script
1:24:41that I that I use and maybe give a
1:24:43couple of friends because the others a
1:24:45lot of work involved makes me a product
1:24:46and it probably isn't worth it for a lot
1:24:48of these so you know time will tell but
1:24:51uh up releasing someday you should
1:24:54release like the market armament podcast
1:24:56get the honestly that that's kind of
1:24:58what I was thinking that I might do some
1:25:00day but you know cause like the you
1:25:02could argue maybe I can just make one
1:25:05grand app that had like incorporate all
1:25:08the stuff and I don't think that's right
1:25:11or at least that one grant app would
1:25:14have to also be the editor and while
1:25:17some day that might be cool i'm
1:25:18certainly nowhere near ready to tackle
1:25:20that kind of problem right now so
1:25:22eventually there might be one grant app
1:25:25that you know it is the editor and the
1:25:28encoder and the recorder and you know
1:25:31and all this stuff that'd be fine but
1:25:33that we are not there today so probably
1:25:35a collection of small apps may be sold
1:25:37as a pack or something i don't even know
1:25:40but we'll see you know this whole iOS
1:25:42app think it's kinda hard to make money
1:25:44these days so maybe i'll switch over
1:25:45this kind of stuff
1:25:47good luck my friend thank you I think
1:25:50we're good
1:25:51alright thanks to our sponsors this week
1:25:52betterment tracker and indochino and we
1:25:55will see you next week
1:25:57now the show is over they didn't even
1:26:02mean to be in because it was accidental
1:26:07it was accidental John research Marco
1:26:12and Casey would let him
1:26:15because it was accidental was accidental
1:26:19and you can find the show know today d p
1:26:23dot and if your twitter follow them
1:26:31yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a
1:26:36co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC
1:26:43let's see recuse it's
1:26:49what
1:26:55talk about now is a the the whole
1:27:02there's nothing new happening in the
1:27:03news and why you guys are cranky about
1:27:05it
1:27:06alright so so to recap a couple of weeks
1:27:09ago or last week whatever it was I made
1:27:12a flippant remark i think it was me
1:27:13saying there's no other news this week
1:27:16or something like that and this was this
1:27:18was during a week where there was a lot
1:27:20of world news and and political news and
1:27:24you know the news you know things things
1:27:26like police shootings and then and there
1:27:29was a lot of like you know news but I
1:27:33was really just saying there wasn't tech
1:27:34news but I said it was a slow news week
1:27:36I didn't say it was a slow technews week
1:27:38so you know a few people were
1:27:39understandably no concern about that or
1:27:41disagree or were offended by that and i
1:27:44think this is first and foremost attack
1:27:46show and there's all sorts of horrible
1:27:48things that happened in the world and
1:27:50and sometimes we do cover things that
1:27:53are not it directly like what apple has
1:27:57released this week or whatever else
1:27:58we've covered you know things subjects
1:28:00such as women in technology and online
1:28:02harassment things like this that that
1:28:05are partly tech issues but also are
1:28:07partly like societal issues or other
1:28:09issues in general though we do focus
1:28:12mostly on the geeky stuff it in a world
1:28:15where there is so much horribleness that
1:28:19happens in the real world and this stuff
1:28:22gets to me in real life and the world of
1:28:25tech is a is like a vacation from it's a
1:28:29break from that it is it is this nice
1:28:31little world but we can pretend like all
1:28:33that matters in the world is how long
1:28:36it's been since the mac pro's updated
1:28:38and if we don't cover other things that
1:28:41like horrible things are going on in the
1:28:43world i consider that a feature not a
1:28:45bug for the most part most of the time
1:28:47because not only do do i need that and
1:28:51you know and you guys you know you can
1:28:52speak yourselves in a minute oh
1:28:53definitely not only not only do i need
1:28:55that as as a human being but I feel like
1:28:58it's important that our listeners also
1:29:00get a break from that too if they want
1:29:02to because there's so many other places
1:29:03that you can get coverage of major world
1:29:06news and political news and horrible
1:29:07tragedies and everything else
1:29:08and I think it's important that people
1:29:12have something that's that's not that
1:29:13you know when all the stuff is going on
1:29:15in the world that it the other has to be
1:29:17some some relief from that some break
1:29:19from that somewhere at some safe place
1:29:21you can go and and not here horrible
1:29:24news every week
1:29:25all right i'm gonna going to give the
1:29:26flip side of that which although I agree
1:29:27with all the things you said that like
1:29:28I'm going to present the the opposing
1:29:31argument and then explain like that the
1:29:33meta issue with why it's difficult to
1:29:35address this period like you said you
1:29:38know we know what the shows about just
1:29:39look at the past history of topics i
1:29:41think everyone agree like it to figure
1:29:42out like how this works you just go to
1:29:44extremes and see what the endpoints are
1:29:46so like one extreme would be like a
1:29:47nuclear bomb goes off in manhattan right
1:29:49if we had to show that week assuming
1:29:51Marco still alive you can say that but
1:29:53you probably wouldn't have that problem
1:29:54with solve itself
1:29:56yeah anyway if we had to show that week
1:29:57and didn't mention it it would seem
1:30:00really weird right like that's one
1:30:01extreme right as I oh yeah i know this
1:30:03is tech podcast and that's why we're not
1:30:04going to mention a nuclear bomb went off
1:30:06in Manhattan because it's not a tech
1:30:07topic right and so we won't talk about
1:30:09it everybody including us would find
1:30:12that super weird and nonsensical and it
1:30:15would stand out like a sore thumb so
1:30:16there's one extreme to the other extreme
1:30:17is like you know a bunch of people
1:30:20spaced spray-painting swastikas on the
1:30:22elementary school in my hometown right
1:30:25most of the listeners probably don't
1:30:26care about that it is not a tech issue
1:30:30but you know I would care about deeply
1:30:33right so here's an issue that i would
1:30:35care about deeply because my kids go to
1:30:36that school and i'm super concerned
1:30:38about it on my up at night thinking
1:30:39about it and it's really concerning
1:30:40right but it still doesn't pass muster
1:30:44to be on the podcast slots available so
1:30:46I feel like those are the two ends of
1:30:47the of the of the chain things that we
1:30:50you know both of them are things we care
1:30:51deeply care about because Woodall care
1:30:53deeply about nuking manhattan and i
1:30:55would care deeply about people space and
1:30:57preparing swastikas on my kids
1:30:58elementary school right but one of those
1:31:01things think we would all agree it's
1:31:03like well that's not father 480p and the
1:31:05other 1i think everyone listening we
1:31:07would agree that it would be super weird
1:31:09if we didn't mention right and so the
1:31:11trick about this thing is figuring out
1:31:13the along this spectrum between the nuke
1:31:15and like the local issue that you know
1:31:17whatever along the spectrum of issues
1:31:19that we're going to presume that like
1:31:21like Marcus and i'm assuming as well
1:31:23that we all really do personally care
1:31:25about and think about a lot of whatever
1:31:27there are many issues along with
1:31:28spectrum and the question is when does
1:31:30it become weird that we don't say
1:31:32anything right
1:31:34secondary question is all right we have
1:31:36not saying anything and anyone can pick
1:31:38the line along that spectrum like I feel
1:31:39like it's weird you didn't say anything
1:31:40about the nuclei don't put it on me we
1:31:42care about your local elementary school
1:31:44because I got my own issues right second
1:31:45thing is what if you don't just not say
1:31:48anything but in fact you say as Marco
1:31:51did you notice even spoken to protect
1:31:53you say the us-cert that this that this
1:31:57thing doesn't exist here where you say
1:31:59oh well there is no news this week right
1:32:00now obviously that's not Marco went
1:32:01meant wheel in context I think it's very
1:32:04clear what he meant but you could hear
1:32:06it and interpret it the other way right
1:32:08you know we almost become podcast all
1:32:09the time sometimes not even speaking is
1:32:11just like assuming a context that is not
1:32:12shared with the audience right up but
1:32:15positively asserting the absence of
1:32:18something is gets into the the realm of
1:32:21what everyone calls her a sure where
1:32:22you're intentionally most of the time
1:32:26erasures is like intentionally
1:32:27intentionally or unintentionally
1:32:27creating an environment where people
1:32:31sort of soaking in it can how can it
1:32:35supports a worldview where this thing is
1:32:38not an issue or is not a problem or
1:32:39doesn't exist so by positively asserting
1:32:41that nothing was going on
1:32:43it is a form of erasing the struggle of
1:32:46like black lives matter or whatever
1:32:47things are you that you know that we may
1:32:49care deeply about like the people listen
1:32:51it's like I'm providing a safe space for
1:32:53you to pretend the black lives matter
1:32:55doesn't exist right and there's a flip
1:32:57side as well Marco says I call sometimes
1:32:59you don't wanna hear about the crappy
1:32:59things never just one here is to talk
1:33:01about Casey's mac or whatever like there
1:33:03is a flip side but a ratio is a real
1:33:06thing and it happens all the time and so
1:33:08when the combination of like not being
1:33:12clear enough about this like there's no
1:33:13new tech news and really saying there's
1:33:15no news that reads exactly like a ray
1:33:17sure and I think for a lot of people
1:33:20although black lives matter and and
1:33:23police shootings and stuff is not a nuke
1:33:25on Manhattan it is close enough to the
1:33:27threshold of things that should be
1:33:28important enough that that should come
1:33:30up on ATP for people to think only think
1:33:32it should include now that judgment i
1:33:34feel like is
1:33:35you know that that's definitely judgment
1:33:37call whether you think it's appropriate
1:33:38to add but once you start positively
1:33:39asserting that starts looking like a ray
1:33:40sure that's a problem as well and then
1:33:44the meta problem is that is say this
1:33:46happens say all three of us who I
1:33:48presume all care deeply about these
1:33:50issues that we didn't mention the show
1:33:51as we do about many issues that we don't
1:33:52mention show for a variety of reasons
1:33:53and all of us basically made the
1:33:55judgment without you know the visit is
1:33:57not going to be a topic we're going to
1:33:58discuss an ATP just like there are so
1:33:59many topics that we all care about that
1:34:01we don't discuss an ATP for various
1:34:02reasons that marker outline when we end
1:34:07up with a show that some people here and
1:34:08it's like oh you know you're not only
1:34:10not discussing this but you're making it
1:34:11seem like it doesn't happen and that's
1:34:13bad because it happens all the time and
1:34:15complain to us about it
1:34:17the natural reaction is to say but you
1:34:20know it sounds like they're improving
1:34:21our motivations all but we we have to
1:34:23say but we do care about that in fact
1:34:25not only do we care about that but we're
1:34:26on the same side as you and like it's an
1:34:28important issue to us and hear the
1:34:30reasons I didn't want to talk about it
1:34:31and so on and so forth you get defensive
1:34:33essentially and so to have a show where
1:34:35you come back and have to talk about it
1:34:37in anyway it's very difficult not to
1:34:39feel like you're under attack when
1:34:40you're you feel like you're defending
1:34:41yourself for something you didn't do
1:34:42because you totally agree with them but
1:34:44at the same time there's there's no way
1:34:46to like you can't go back and add the
1:34:48the words that you didn't put there and
1:34:49you can't control how people interpret
1:34:51things because it does read like a racer
1:34:53too many people and some people you just
1:34:55gonna disagree with about what what
1:34:56makes the threshold from you know the
1:34:58the spray paint on the school and the
1:35:00new king Manhattan you might have
1:35:02disagreements on where that line is but
1:35:03the debate becomes about are you a good
1:35:05person who cares about the issues that i
1:35:06care i don't you care about this are you
1:35:08actively trying to erase this and so
1:35:10it's really difficult to come to show on
1:35:12a follow-up type thing and talk about it
1:35:15in a way that isn't immediately
1:35:17defensive right regardless of how
1:35:18everyone falls on on the various issues
1:35:20and so I think rather than delving into
1:35:22the specifics of the issue which you
1:35:25know we have new news with the egg and
1:35:26another topic that we didn't talk about
1:35:27and don't plan to like the Republican
1:35:29National Convention look rather than
1:35:30actually delving into a topic but i
1:35:31still feel like are not appropriate for
1:35:33the show I think it was more important
1:35:35to talk about the meta issue of being
1:35:39aware that even though you may agree and
1:35:43may think things are important there are
1:35:44things you can do either accidentally or
1:35:45on purpose because that can create an
1:35:47invite
1:35:48garment that makes it seem like those
1:35:49issues are less important than they are
1:35:51or gives people sort of a place where
1:35:54they can a safe haven away from those
1:35:56things in a bad way Marco talk about the
1:35:58good ways like we all care about them we
1:35:59all know about them makes us said but
1:36:01sometimes i just want to have you know
1:36:03Escape and play pokemon go like that's
1:36:05definitely a role things reply but the
1:36:07other aspect of it is that I don't think
1:36:10those are actually important and it's a
1:36:12shame that the real news and it's not
1:36:14even newsworthy and those people should
1:36:16just stop complaining and thank goodness
1:36:18i can listen to a podcast that agrees
1:36:20with me that those things are being
1:36:22concerned because nothing interesting is
1:36:23happening in the news right which is
1:36:25obviously not what any of us meant but
1:36:26it can read like that from the outside
1:36:28so it's all I you know what what should
1:36:31we do differently what should we do
1:36:32better if you just aware of that issue
1:36:34like the next time you know someone
1:36:37you're one of us says something like
1:36:38that and the context I think that's all
1:36:40is needed and and then I guess the
1:36:44secondary thing is even though it feels
1:36:46terrible to think and talk about it on
1:36:48the next show
1:36:49do it anyway because it's better than
1:36:51like if we were to just not say anything
1:36:52on the show about it i think that would
1:36:55be works is that would be like doubling
1:36:56down that would be like well I didn't
1:36:58know what a racer was and definitely
1:37:00wasn't doing it on purpose but now that
1:37:01you mention it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna
1:37:03pretend you know i'm going to pretend
1:37:04that nobody complained like just being
1:37:06spiteful about it and so you know but we
1:37:08do an ATP as the the most painful thing
1:37:11possible and then we screwed up but
1:37:13that's our way
1:37:14yeah i mean i-i naturally agree with
1:37:17that with pretty much everything both
1:37:18you guys said I don't know I I I
1:37:20absolutely felt attacked when I saw this
1:37:23feedback and it was from from somebody I
1:37:26feel like I know and definitely respect
1:37:28and that almost made it worse because i
1:37:31felt like it was coming from a person an
1:37:35individual that I felt should have known
1:37:38the context and I felt the context
1:37:40pretty obvious i actually thought for a
1:37:41long time I was the one who had set it
1:37:43and I think you might be right Marco I
1:37:44think it might have been you but it was
1:37:46Marco and also tiff and like she also
1:37:48got defensive about it like it is
1:37:49totally natural get defensive about like
1:37:51you're getting defensive about the wrong
1:37:52thing like the person is not impugning
1:37:54your motivations like everybody involved
1:37:56knows that they care about think it's
1:37:58all about like all right your
1:37:59motivations are one thing
1:38:00so you know judge ourselves by our
1:38:01motivations but others by their actions
1:38:03you're being judged by your actions even
1:38:04your own intentional actions or even
1:38:06marcos an intentional act like it's like
1:38:07doesn't matter what you were thinking it
1:38:08only matters what you said and how it
1:38:10might be interpreted by people who are
1:38:12predisposed to look for a place where
1:38:15they where someone is positively
1:38:16asserting you know that these people
1:38:18don't matter you know I mean like that's
1:38:20and that is a tough way to be judged and
1:38:22has nothing to do with motivations and
1:38:24you can totally feel like you're being
1:38:25attacked but if you're not aware that
1:38:27even a thing
1:38:28it's hard to understand what's the big
1:38:30deal like you know and I know we all
1:38:32know together that we care about this
1:38:34isn't carrying enough and you know I
1:38:36didn't do this on purpose and you know
1:38:38the context and it should be clear to
1:38:39people listening all that is we can all
1:38:42agree on that and still say yeah but not
1:38:45everyone is on that same page and not
1:38:48everyone understands your motivations
1:38:50and those you as well as I do and all
1:38:52were left with is your actions and your
1:38:54actions can have a small harmful effect
1:38:56and just letting you know like maybe
1:38:59that's something to be careful about I
1:39:00think about it at least talk about on
1:39:02the following show which I feel like
1:39:04we're we're doing and that's the right
1:39:05thing to do
1:39:06despite the fact that we all feel like
1:39:08defensive and immediately about it's
1:39:09just human nature
1:39:11oh yeah i was extremely Reggie when this
1:39:13was flying by on Twitter it was the
1:39:16angriest stuff gotten at something I've
1:39:19seen on twitter that that affected me
1:39:21personally in a long time
1:39:24really because you thought people saying
1:39:25you're a bad person basically and just
1:39:27like you said John what would in a wall
1:39:30just because I didn't bring it up it
1:39:32doesn't mean I don't care and I think
1:39:35it's abundantly obvious to anyone who's
1:39:37ever listen to the show that the the
1:39:39assumed context for Marco statement was
1:39:42in technology and i think it's it's
1:39:45unfair of me to assume that at anyone
1:39:49else is coming from the same point but I
1:39:51was deeply bothered by it and i still am
1:39:54pretty fired up about it I i feel that i
1:39:56could get all my the explanation didn't
1:39:58help you get a handle on this because
1:39:59you should totally like does that mean
1:40:01like I I think information was was very
1:40:03good and it migrated made a lot of sense
1:40:04to me also and I i agree with you like
1:40:07you know the thing about being a
1:40:08spectrum of like you know to say if you
1:40:10if you said look here but with like just
1:40:12like you said
1:40:13nothing happened this weekend you meant
1:40:15in tech but a new kind of Manhattan that
1:40:18week like that would be really
1:40:19outrageous to end its many bars there is
1:40:21no historical issue of a ratio of
1:40:23nuclear bombs going off in the United
1:40:25States sure but there is there is a long
1:40:28there's a context for specific issues of
1:40:30like not caring about it when when black
1:40:32people get shot by police officers like
1:40:34the idea that you know but thats that
1:40:37it's a systemic issues that there is
1:40:38specific context to this and that doing
1:40:41in this context even accidentally so
1:40:43much more worse so much worse than doing
1:40:45in the context of a new going off
1:40:47because it would just seem super weird i
1:40:49was using that as an extreme yeah
1:40:50there's no history of a ratio that is no
1:40:52systemic prejudice against talking about
1:40:54that there's no history of devaluing
1:40:56that and saying it's not as important as
1:40:58other stories you know I mean like
1:40:59there's so much baggage and weight
1:41:01behind this and and I think all of us or
1:41:04just you know i mean at least i know i
1:41:06was following all this stuff and Twitter
1:41:07and reading about it is depressing and
1:41:08it is upsetting and that could be
1:41:10conscious decision not to talk about it
1:41:12but like if you accidentally end up
1:41:13saying something that could be read as a
1:41:15race sure I understand but people will
1:41:17be like even if they don't personally
1:41:18know that you didn't mean it as a racer
1:41:20doesn't matter what you mean all that
1:41:21matters is what you ended up saying and
1:41:23how it might be interpreted and then you
1:41:24are adding a tiny pebble to the jet
1:41:26gigantic wall in the context of this
1:41:28issue and it's very difficult when you
1:41:32do something we could have negative
1:41:33consequences
1:41:34none of which you intended or might not
1:41:36even understand right and so you totally
1:41:38would feel attackers like how can i have
1:41:40done something wrong when I didn't mean
1:41:42to do anything wrong and I don't even
1:41:44understand the wrongness that i did it's
1:41:45still possible still totally possible to
1:41:47do something everyone probably wrong but
1:41:49not have meant anything wrong be totally
1:41:51in agreement with the people who are
1:41:52identifying the wrong thing that you did
1:41:54and like like that is possible it's hard
1:41:56to square that and so like I think
1:41:58you're still holding onto the idea that
1:41:59someone is calling you a bad person like
1:42:01nobody is right
1:42:02nobody's saying that there is a point
1:42:04that we're just that we you know that we
1:42:06stumbled in a mistake and maybe they're
1:42:08being more harsh on us than you think
1:42:10they should like if you spend your time
1:42:12trying to defend your motivations you're
1:42:14never going to think about your actions
1:42:15in a broader context and it's like it's
1:42:17counterproductive like you're only
1:42:19you're only gonna go more distant that
1:42:21way rather than trying to figure out
1:42:23pata gotta
1:42:25how to come closer together whatever and
1:42:26it people are gonna be upset they have
1:42:28the right to be upset that like it since
1:42:30there's no reason I well now i'm going
1:42:32to double down on my unintentional
1:42:35mistake by trying to make intentional
1:42:37lines right it's like you know it's like
1:42:38it's like if you learned that like a
1:42:40word that you used was actually like
1:42:43racist and you didn't know that
1:42:45oh yeah totally same thing yeah it's
1:42:47like it's worth knowing that it's worth
1:42:50learning that is what I'm telling you
1:42:51that
1:42:52and even though you didn't mean to be
1:42:53racist or you don't have those feelings
1:42:55you because you didn't even know the
1:42:57origins like is right it was just right
1:42:59but it's still it's still shouldn't use
1:43:01it and so it's like it you know that the
1:43:03the most so well just thing is due to
1:43:05thank the person for telling you but
1:43:06human things they were you saying I'm a
1:43:08racist like that's how everyone feels
1:43:09like you should know i'm not you know me
1:43:11thats that's absurd and now you know
1:43:14like yeah it has ultimate example of
1:43:16this is the word spaz which in American
1:43:18English is not or to any spending circle
1:43:21I've ever traveled in anyway it's not
1:43:23derogatory whereas in British English
1:43:24it's hugely derogatory and stronger and
1:43:28was able to send English yeah it's a
1:43:30problematic it you know it's like when I
1:43:32was commissioned to like lay more
1:43:34gameplay like you're horribly named open
1:43:36source project things that many people
1:43:38have never thought about including me
1:43:40until fairly recently
1:43:41yeah sure you just you just didn't know
1:43:43but yeah like someone pointing it out to
1:43:46you it you know depending on how they do
1:43:48it or whatever like it's not on them to
1:43:50like break it to you gently it's on you
1:43:52to figure out how to separate your
1:43:53feelings about are you saying I you know
1:43:55I hate disabled people from the idea
1:43:58that this thing you've been doing
1:44:00unintentionally has an effect on other
1:44:02people you might not have realized so
1:44:04incorporate that into your decisions
1:44:06about whether you're going to do that
1:44:07going forward right that's why I've
1:44:09tried to remove that word from my
1:44:11vernacular because i don't want to be
1:44:12offensive
1:44:13it's real and it's really hard to do
1:44:14like I don't know trying to remove
1:44:17things from regulators here myself doing
1:44:18them all the time
1:44:19oh yeah you know trying like we know
1:44:21we're trying but all people know is what
1:44:23we say so it's gonna be like when
1:44:24someone says you actually let something
1:44:26slip you like well try and man I mean
1:44:28that's true but would also like you'd
1:44:30like if if you're trying it's still
1:44:33right for somebody to call you at every
1:44:34time you mess up exactly like it you
1:44:37just have to just have to you
1:44:38no separate constructive criticism is a
1:44:40two-way street like people can criticize
1:44:42you and unconstructive way and you can
1:44:44take constructive things from it and
1:44:46people can criticize you a constructive
1:44:48way and you can you know not handle it
1:44:51well and not take it in a constructive
1:44:53manner like so it's yeah it helps if
1:44:56it's constructive coming in but either
1:44:59way you can mess it up on your end by
1:45:01deciding that you your your heart
1:45:04feelings are more important than
1:45:06whatever the issue is that's being
1:45:07highlighted it and I think that's
1:45:08exactly the the hit i fell into is I I i
1:45:12personally don't think that the
1:45:14complaint that was lodged terribly
1:45:17constructively but i absolutely agree
1:45:20with you that I did in to some degree
1:45:22still am letting my emotions get in the
1:45:25way of the bigger picture which is we
1:45:27should have we should phrase things
1:45:30better and or corrected each other after
1:45:32having this phrase them and then the
1:45:33reason i didn't notice because it you
1:45:35know i have that assume context that not
1:45:37everyone does but what also made it even
1:45:40worse was this was someone i feel like i
1:45:42know and i felt like a bazooka was used
1:45:46when it wasn't absolutely necessary
1:45:49which here again is feelings
1:45:51no i mean like a you know to me like you
1:45:53know that the fact that a friend of ours
1:45:55said it is is almost irrelevant you know
1:45:58that it's if anything that's what
1:46:00friends are for start singing the song
1:46:02yeah like if anything like if a random
1:46:04person who I didn't know they called us
1:46:06out on it i might not have taken it
1:46:08seriously they did but I didn't take it
1:46:11in a hurtful I i was surprised but I was
1:46:14it was more just like hide and think
1:46:16about that way at all and yeah it was
1:46:19you know it's like when you're called an
1:46:20unintentional racism or something it's
1:46:22like I wasn't thinking along those lines
1:46:24at all but now that you mention it yeah
1:46:27I didn't really say that very well and
1:46:30and so again it's it's worth being told
1:46:33in a way that you will notice and it's
1:46:34worth correcting it and that's why you
1:46:36should do this to your friends like we
1:46:37have to take it more seriously from
1:46:39their friends the bad side of that is
1:46:40that many people when a friend does it
1:46:42like that's the end of the friendship
1:46:43and World War now and I hate that person
1:46:45never speak to them again that is not
1:46:46taking construct like both of you like
1:46:48trees
1:46:49yeah you can deliver that bad
1:46:51on one end and it can be taken badly on
1:46:53the other and you could do one or the
1:46:54like it can end badly many different
1:46:56ways but it's difficult but you'd like
1:46:58this is what you want your friends to do
1:46:59because again if a stranger lots of
1:47:01things that strangers say you just let
1:47:03it roll off your back because like that
1:47:04especially that's just a skill you have
1:47:05to have become strangers will say all
1:47:07sorts of awful things to you mom but
1:47:09this is what your friends are there to
1:47:11do for you and if you don't have that
1:47:13kind of relationship with your friends
1:47:14in either direction like if you hang out
1:47:16with your friends your friends are
1:47:17constantly making racist jokes and you
1:47:18do a fake laugh but you don't believe
1:47:20any of that like it's not on the same
1:47:22you're not on the same page with that
1:47:23but you feel like you can't call them on
1:47:25it like I don't know that feel like
1:47:27that's it that's a bad situation to be
1:47:28in
1:47:29you know it's it like express yourself
1:47:33but I explain how it makes you feel when
1:47:36you're making racist jokes and that's
1:47:37the end of the friendship like I feel
1:47:39like that's the appropriate course of
1:47:41events rather than to just you know that
1:47:43if you soak in that environment long
1:47:44enough you will become normalized and
1:47:46you like it's not a big deal i have this
1:47:48person was a great person loves kids and
1:47:50yeah it makes racist joke sometimes but
1:47:51who cares it's like that's that's how we
1:47:53end up where we are you can't stand up
1:47:55with that stuff normalized yeah and you
1:47:58know several years ago now i watched
1:48:01this thing that ended up becoming very
1:48:04popular was Randy pouches last lecture
1:48:07and probably brought it up in the past
1:48:09and it was a no a professor from
1:48:13Carnegie Mellon and actually believed
1:48:14had been a instructor evaa as well and
1:48:18he did this this left he will use
1:48:21diagnosed with terminal cancer in and
1:48:22did this thing that was supposed to be a
1:48:24last lecture really for his kids he
1:48:27talked about in that last lecture to
1:48:30your point that when people stop
1:48:33correcting you that's a really crummy
1:48:35place to be and as Radiesse husband /
1:48:38that's the dire exchange i do agree with
1:48:41what you said and I am thankful for the
1:48:43correction even if I wish it had been
1:48:46delivered differently and i wish i had
1:48:47responded differently
1:48:48yeah me too although i have less run
1:48:51without was delivered and I didn't
1:48:52respond so in other words you handled it
1:48:54a lot better than I did but your
1:48:55response responded now I I didn't
1:48:57respond in the moment they're also
1:48:59because i missed the moment when it
1:49:00happened but me to actually i was like i
1:49:02like i didn't even have twitter open
1:49:03while this is
1:49:04going on in the night I caught up like
1:49:05our leader like oh no this happened
1:49:07yeah yeah anyway no but sometimes not
1:49:10responding in the moment is the right
1:49:11thing to do to give yourself time to
1:49:13digest didn't get distance before you
1:49:14say things they regret more things that
1:49:15you were going anyway
1:49:17oh yeah i highly recommend using an app
1:49:18on your Mac to automatically quit
1:49:20Twitter battery on a frequent basis
1:49:22it really does help quite a lot in a lot
1:49:24of ways in life i'm waiting for it to be
1:49:26available the mac app star