171: WWDC Is Not Santa Claus

0:00:00egg salad is not delicious salt and

0:00:02mayonnaise are delicious that's what

0:00:04you're tasting exiled is not delicious

0:00:06salads awesome are you talking about

0:00:07exhales good exhales fine it's not too

0:00:10late i wouldn't am NOT going to rave

0:00:11about it

0:00:12that's ridiculous a it's delicious but

0:00:13it's quite good what exactly it's not

0:00:15delicious see I i went through several

0:00:17containers of your actual chicken salad

0:00:19which is good is your chicken salad but

0:00:22i also had egg salad to compare with him

0:00:24when it came time like somebody can tell

0:00:25you know like you feel like you have a

0:00:27preference you go either way depending

0:00:28on the mood for when I came time to pick

0:00:30is kinda leaning towards the eggs out a

0:00:31lot it's the yolks man that's what does

0:00:33it's the yolks we should talk about

0:00:37t-shirts all right yeah so it was late

0:00:41breaking news after we had recorded that

0:00:44we were able to get everything squared

0:00:45away between ourselves with cotton

0:00:48bureau who who have been excellent so

0:00:50far so many things to je and timmy

0:00:52cotton bureau we have two shirts up for

0:00:55sale in case you haven't heard or

0:00:57haven't looked

0:00:58one of them which we kind of call

0:00:59watches is inspired by ricardo melo's

0:01:06tweet and then j designed it is pixel

0:01:09art as everyone expected

0:01:11John has thoughts about this pixel art

0:01:13but it's the three of us with our

0:01:15respective choices of wristwear and then

0:01:18the other one is just kind of our logo

0:01:21shirt which is kind of combination of

0:01:24our automotive heritage and our current

0:01:26are our automotive and current in and

0:01:30macintosh heritage for those of us who

0:01:32around in the six colors days which is

0:01:34basically just John so they'll be up for

0:01:37sale and so what third of june i believe

0:01:39so as this episode is released probably

0:01:42about another week

0:01:43don't delay don't forget I cannot tell

0:01:46you how many people have said after the

0:01:48last round of shirts went up

0:01:50oh yeah just never watched never pulled

0:01:52the trigger on ordering it i just forgot

0:01:54and so can you make them again no we

0:01:56can't so pull the trigger as you're

0:01:59thinking of it

0:02:00get yourselves a shirt if you want i am

0:02:03really happy with this year shirts

0:02:04especially since up until like a week

0:02:06and a half before they went up for sale

0:02:09we had no freaking clue what to do for

0:02:10shirts so I'm really happy with them

0:02:13and you should buy one to support the

0:02:14show so thanks everyone who has one and

0:02:16everyone who will buy one

0:02:18yeah thank you so far we haven't

0:02:19repeated any shirts so again the same

0:02:22thing like you I don't know for maybe

0:02:24we'll this from this year on we'll just

0:02:26review the same sure it's over again but

0:02:27so far we haven't repeated any so if

0:02:29you'd like one of the shirts don't

0:02:30assume i'll just buy an extra because it

0:02:32might not be the next year or it might

0:02:33but anyway same will have a critical

0:02:36shirts that I sold just once and I still

0:02:38get people to me to this day take the

0:02:39years later like I missed out buying

0:02:41those shirts

0:02:42i mean--and and make no mistake these

0:02:45are expensive t-shirts especially your

0:02:47shipping them especially if you're

0:02:48shipping them far away all podcasters

0:02:50expensive i know i have i have literally

0:02:52at boxes in the Attic filled with

0:02:54podcast and website t-shirts but they're

0:02:58cool to have and in the grand scheme of

0:03:01things they're actually pretty rare

0:03:02because who listens to weird technology

0:03:04podcast and then who buys a t-shirt for

0:03:06a technique party is not a lot of people

0:03:07so I kind of machine we didn't make it

0:03:09for WotC but I think they're fun shirts

0:03:12and I have had a question for you guys

0:03:14we haven't talked about this on twitter

0:03:15we have no one I believe has spelled out

0:03:18the visual metaphor of the ATP logo

0:03:23shirt and I have been hesitant to do so

0:03:25because I feel like explaining it kind

0:03:27of makes it worse but maybe I'm wrong

0:03:29maybe people maybe people would be more

0:03:31excited about the sheriff the understood

0:03:32what we were going for

0:03:34so would you like to explain yeah it's

0:03:36pretty obvious connection if you're in

0:03:37the right mindset but if you're not

0:03:38thinking that way might not occur to you

0:03:40and of course you don't know anything

0:03:41about cars and you don't care then like

0:03:43explaining to someone who does know

0:03:44anything about cars

0:03:45it's pointless because they don't care

0:03:46right yeah so I guess we're not

0:03:48explaining it when people feel free

0:03:50alright well okay well since ing

0:03:51summarizer in chief yeah exactly so

0:03:54since I'm the only current at BWW owner

0:03:56this is a play on the BMW M symbol which

0:04:01will put a link to that in the show

0:04:03notes basically BMW M is there uh

0:04:06motorsports group and so Marcos and five

0:04:09which we've talked about ad nauseam on

0:04:11the show and certainly was kind of the

0:04:13driving art behind neutral the way that

0:04:17logo looks is it's three colors and

0:04:19there's a story behind them i think one

0:04:21was bavaria one was texaco which had a

0:04:24deal with BMW at the time

0:04:25m was created and one was just like a

0:04:28purple to kind of blend the two so Jay

0:04:30at cotton bureau completely on his own

0:04:33accord like with zero input from us

0:04:35thought oh well I can take the six

0:04:38colors from the original mac and then do

0:04:42a kind of stylized ATP and kind of blend

0:04:45our automotive history coming out of

0:04:47neutral and get like old-school Mac

0:04:50flare going and get kind of a mash-up of

0:04:53the both and you keep saying Mac like

0:04:55those are like those pc users who say

0:04:57you like mac computers is Mac making an

0:05:00ipod now in all categories into the mac

0:05:02store and you know captain iron Mac

0:05:04makes phones now I'm sorry to offend you

0:05:07old man what was the appropriate the

0:05:09apple logo it's the rainbow striped

0:05:10apple logo it's a logo they had really

0:05:12like the first you know 15 or whatever

0:05:14years of the company's existence

0:05:16fair enough I I regret the air thank you

0:05:18and god I'm gonna get so many emails but

0:05:20I saved you from the emails now feel

0:05:21like it's been addressed my apologies

0:05:24for that but anyway the point being that

0:05:26it's a combination of the original apple

0:05:28logo and the BMW m logo or inspired not

0:05:32the original apple logo I'm saving you

0:05:34again wonderful original apple logo was

0:05:38that was that pen-and-ink drawing of the

0:05:40guy under the tree for you some emails

0:05:44and quick anyway yeah i was telling a

0:05:47double selling t-shirts with the

0:05:49original apple logo on them along with

0:05:51the rainbow stripes apple logo and a

0:05:53bunch of icons and other stuff on their

0:05:5640th anniversary i tried to get some

0:05:57tried to have my minions in cupertino

0:05:59buy them from the apple store infinite

0:06:01loop but they were too late they were

0:06:03sold out

0:06:03yeah actually we have millions there I

0:06:06need somebody get me some pens for tiff

0:06:07but yeah you know I have mins maybe you

0:06:10find in any case so please uh if you

0:06:14have if you have the means by shirt also

0:06:16a John alluded to touched on this

0:06:18earlier but we do understand i know it

0:06:20doesn't sound like we do but we do

0:06:21understand that shipping is extremely

0:06:24expensive across the pond and we are

0:06:26genuinely very sorry for that in hand on

0:06:28heart we weighed that as as a con when

0:06:31deciding how to do the t-shirts this

0:06:33year there are other t-shirt vendors

0:06:35that that people use that we have used

0:06:38that have

0:06:38I have overseas presses or printing or

0:06:41whatever you call it

0:06:42we wanted to go a different route this

0:06:45year and try something different and I

0:06:48really really really appreciate anyone

0:06:51from Europe or Asia or really anywhere

0:06:53other than North America that is bought

0:06:55one of these shirts because I know

0:06:57shipping is just out of control and I am

0:06:59sorry for that but look at it this way

0:07:01these shirts i am super proud of them

0:07:04and if it wasn't for Jay at cotton

0:07:05bureau they would not looking anywhere

0:07:08near as good

0:07:09you should see the the illustration

0:07:11Marco sent as a as a like save that yeah

0:07:15great example of patent hands yeah it's

0:07:18really just as an example of what we

0:07:21gave jay with regard to the to the three

0:07:24hands with three risks especially bad i

0:07:26mean I wasn't I would have done worse

0:07:28i'm not trying to like throw stones i

0:07:30would have done much worse job but that

0:07:32illustration with respect marco was

0:07:33pretty freakin bad and Jay made it

0:07:35because because the best of the best

0:07:37part about it is that he meticulously

0:07:38drew i'm assuming on the ipad ya go with

0:07:42like the pencil he meticulously drew his

0:07:44watch was like that's really cares about

0:07:45that haha and a hand with these

0:07:47misshapen mutant paddles it's like hands

0:07:50hands whatever I can't draw what you

0:07:52spent so long and that watch I'm going

0:07:54to see you like zooming in and carefully

0:07:56drawing the hands trying to draw your

0:07:57beautiful little Swiss whatever-the-hell

0:07:59watch it is and then the hands are just

0:08:01a mess

0:08:01first of all that is not a separate that

0:08:03is not like an exact representation of

0:08:04any of my watches and I didn't take that

0:08:06Wonder you took longer than expected

0:08:09draw the quote-unquote hands

0:08:11yeah well yeah so suffice to say it look

0:08:15in the show notes you can see marcos

0:08:17original illustration to j and we never

0:08:20told him pixel art or anything he just

0:08:22took that upon himself and did a just

0:08:24killer job with it so I again just to

0:08:27bring this back around and try to redeem

0:08:29myself summarizer in chief

0:08:31we are very sorry about the shipping

0:08:32costs we really truly are and we are

0:08:34super appreciative of anyone to buy

0:08:36shirts but particularly those overseas

0:08:37and because i know it is a big ask and

0:08:40and I wewe really thank you and

0:08:43hopefully if we do shirts again next

0:08:44year we'll have some different mechanism

0:08:47for doing this but no guarantees we'll

0:08:49see how it goes

0:08:50moving right along we should prob

0:08:52we do some follow-up place Jacobson I'm

0:08:56so sorry i had written in don't know if

0:08:59this was via Twitter or an email but

0:09:01they said after submitting a burst of 20

0:09:05installs is submitting an iOS app a

0:09:07burst of 20 installs from California

0:09:09occurs this has happened recently but

0:09:11did not happen between october in

0:09:13February so perhaps there's some sort of

0:09:16automated testing going on when you

0:09:18submit to the appstore more than just

0:09:20like the checking for private api's and

0:09:21things like that

0:09:22more recent are more rigorous or perhaps

0:09:25more timely a automated testing that

0:09:28that's another theory is none that the

0:09:30following year that I heard a lot is

0:09:31that a lot of people under the

0:09:32impression i'm not sure if its founder

0:09:34not that the delays in review like you

0:09:37you know in the olden days several

0:09:39months ago you'd submit an application

0:09:40and take like a week or whatever to get

0:09:43through the review process and a lot of

0:09:45people think that's because Apple

0:09:47intentionally doesn't look at your

0:09:48application for a long time

0:09:50ah as a form of training to make you

0:09:53think I think twice before you submit

0:09:55don't waste our time submitting your

0:09:57application if you're not super duper

0:09:59sure that it's ready to go up and to

0:10:01teach you that lesson

0:10:02no matter when you submit we're just

0:10:03going to sit on and do nothing even if

0:10:04we don't have anything else to do even

0:10:06if we have a capacity we're just going

0:10:07to intentionally ignore your app for a

0:10:08week just to teach you a lesson to say

0:10:10see it's always going to take at least a

0:10:12week so don't submit in haste always you

0:10:14know make sure your i's are dotted and

0:10:16your T's are crossed that doesn't sound

0:10:19like something that makes sense to me

0:10:21for Apple as a business to do so maybe I

0:10:25don't again I don't know if these

0:10:26reports were based on inside information

0:10:28or testing or theories or whatever just

0:10:31feeling like it but that doesn't strike

0:10:32me as something that reasonable maybe if

0:10:37there was something like that it would

0:10:38be like we don't bother looking your

0:10:40application for the first four hours to

0:10:41give you a chance to think better out if

0:10:43you're actually submitted but i can't

0:10:44imagine them sitting out and not doing

0:10:46anything for a week so I'm still

0:10:48thinking that the decreased review times

0:10:53have to be the result of something that

0:10:55Apple's intentionally doing because they

0:10:56want the review times to be shorter not

0:10:58longer

0:10:59well I mean there was so this this past

0:11:01week on the talk show Rene Ritchie was

0:11:03the guests with John Gruber

0:11:05and renamed they were talking about this

0:11:08and and you could kind of tell that

0:11:09renee has information about this that he

0:11:12has heard in the best friend anyway he

0:11:15basically like suggest what the

0:11:17information is generally the content of

0:11:19what category it is but doesn't actually

0:11:21tell you anything to get him anybody

0:11:23else in trouble but it basically sounds

0:11:25like there was a significant management

0:11:29change in a preview likes in some kind

0:11:32of like and it wasn't this wasn't built

0:11:34ignore the app store but it might have

0:11:35been you know related to that in some

0:11:37way but like it wasn't that change but

0:11:39it was like some other changes that

0:11:41happened

0:11:42further down the line in a preview that

0:11:44basically got some people out of the way

0:11:47who would cause holdups and that is

0:11:49apparently the end and seeing some

0:11:51policies and that that is apparently

0:11:53what the result of this was if you read

0:11:55between the very very obvious lines that

0:11:57Ranger on the doctor last week so that I

0:12:00think is very interesting also I i agree

0:12:03with what you said i don't think they

0:12:04were ever like artificially delaying

0:12:06things necessarily 22 a week because if

0:12:09they were you would have never seen a

0:12:11review time less than a week and that

0:12:13wasn't true you know if you would look

0:12:15at the at the history on on that shine

0:12:18development site that was collecting all

0:12:19the stats for everybody that still is

0:12:21click on the stats everybody it

0:12:24fluctuated and sometimes it is sometimes

0:12:25it would go you know down to like six

0:12:28days five days and then go back up i

0:12:31think what instead was the case was you

0:12:34know we we know that Apple is very

0:12:35performance metric driven these days

0:12:38especially in the middle management

0:12:39levels so I think they just to find the

0:12:41performance metric to be you know ninety

0:12:44percent or more in a 95 and that you

0:12:46know whatever the percentages we want X

0:12:47percent of apps to be reviewed within a

0:12:49week and we consider that success so

0:12:51that whenever they would start getting

0:12:52you no way above that and would start

0:12:55that numbers are suffering

0:12:56maybe they would add more staff maybe

0:12:58they would she make changes to to get

0:13:00that number back down but it seemed like

0:13:01they considered that good enough for all

0:13:03this time and so a combination of maybe

0:13:06changing that opinion may be changing

0:13:07that metric something lower as well as

0:13:10whatever this this management change was

0:13:12that happened that i think is very

0:13:15plausibly what what went on here to

0:13:17cause a few times to do

0:13:18up from a week to less than day and

0:13:21don't have to be like a week

0:13:22specifically just the idea that there is

0:13:24there there's excess capacity that Apple

0:13:26could review your application but

0:13:28instead let's either decrease staffing

0:13:30or send people home early or like like

0:13:32they're intentionally like the delay is

0:13:34actually part of their policy within a

0:13:36tent that was that the theory that they

0:13:38like Apple Apple always could do this

0:13:40but they were intentionally not doing it

0:13:41on

0:13:42that's slightly different than they had

0:13:44a metric that meant people got to go

0:13:45home without staying for overtime as

0:13:47long as they hit X percent because i can

0:13:49imagine Apple being what it is they

0:13:50probably staff so the people have to

0:13:52work really really hard to get whatever

0:13:53the numbers were there not like

0:13:55overstaffing then giving them a logo

0:13:57letting the people go home at three

0:13:58everyday like it's not it's working

0:14:00right

0:14:00also the the idea of automated app

0:14:03review or or or adding another automated

0:14:06step of app review to you know before

0:14:08get to the humans that I think has a lot

0:14:10of Merit it's not an easy problem to

0:14:12solve but if you can have some kind of

0:14:15automation that basically just like try

0:14:17slight push a bunch of buttons in a nap

0:14:19Apple has said on a number of occasions

0:14:20that the most common cause of a project

0:14:23about projections is the app crashes

0:14:25during review so if they can automate a

0:14:28process where they just bring up bring

0:14:31up into the app and just like push some

0:14:33buttons and attempt to in an automated

0:14:35way basically guess how to use the app

0:14:37and just like navigate to different

0:14:38screens if they can cause a crash to

0:14:41happen during that everyone has to get

0:14:43to a human it can be adjusted right then

0:14:45go right back to the developer and say

0:14:46alright this this failed

0:14:48here try again and that that could also

0:14:50result in major time savings for the

0:14:52humans and therefore better throughput

0:14:54for the apt to get through that test

0:14:57cool so drew hannay wrote in they said

0:15:01among other things it's always been

0:15:03pretty complicated to understand what

0:15:04exactly swiping a nap out of recent

0:15:07actually does under the hood was this

0:15:09regard to android actually and right

0:15:12let's talk about the clear all button

0:15:13like wouldn't it be fun to clear all

0:15:14discovered of the pictures on your

0:15:15screen but did nothing to the process we

0:15:17are neither a mere android podcast by

0:15:19the way sorry material so anyway so they

0:15:23they said it's always been pretty

0:15:24complicated understand what exactly

0:15:25swiping a nap out of the recents

0:15:26actually does into the hood

0:15:28one important distinction on android is

0:15:29that the thing that shows up in your

0:15:31recent screen isn't actually a nap it's

0:15:33a task and remember on Android a nap can

0:15:36have multiple tasks in recent at the

0:15:38same time like having multiple google

0:15:39docs open at once when you swipe away a

0:15:42nap it finishes the task which tells the

0:15:44app that the user is done with that

0:15:46workflow and it doesn't need worry to

0:15:47worry about restoring that you I state

0:15:49if the app is doing black background

0:15:50worker has other open tasks its process

0:15:53would not be killed if there's no more

0:15:55open tasks the background job swiping

0:15:57away a nap will let the system note is

0:15:58the option of killing the process but it

0:16:00doesn't guarantee that it will clear all

0:16:03button shouldn't have a dramatic effect

0:16:04on system performance on Android since

0:16:06it usually won't mean that all that

0:16:07processes are killed but it does have

0:16:09the downside of losing any user state

0:16:11from their open tasks

0:16:13that's very interesting to me that is

0:16:15the way Android works because i didn't

0:16:17know most of that and it was also

0:16:19interesting to me how many people who

0:16:21seem to claim their seem to view

0:16:23themselves as you know nerds nerds

0:16:25tweeted about how oh yeah i do that too

0:16:29and that's great John which I thought

0:16:32was quite funny the only feedback that I

0:16:34saw that I thought was very interesting

0:16:35was people who said they wanted to clear

0:16:38it out not for like battery not for

0:16:40memory or anything like that which is

0:16:42because they didn't want that that that

0:16:44view that drawer if you will to have a

0:16:46bunch of things in it they just wanted

0:16:48it to be clean so they didn't have

0:16:50clutter there which still to me seems a

0:16:53little bit peculiar but makes a lot more

0:16:55sense than thinking oh this is going to

0:16:57save my battery or prevent something

0:16:58weird from happening but they changed

0:17:01the iOS policy be more like android

0:17:03android when you're when you're clearing

0:17:04these things it's explicitly not killing

0:17:06your application like if your

0:17:07application is running background jobs

0:17:08that lets them keep running right and it

0:17:10just gives it the audi also basically

0:17:12saying is when I relaunch that don't

0:17:14bring it back to exactly where else

0:17:16which is still kind of punitive because

0:17:17it like you're punishing people for like

0:17:20I don't like the visual clutter I want

0:17:21to get the rectangles away right and

0:17:24there is a punishment for that which is

0:17:25next time you want to that application

0:17:26it will remember where you left off

0:17:27is it will you know just bring it back

0:17:29to a fresh state or whatever it would be

0:17:32nice if all these operating systems i

0:17:34guess maybe either took the speaker way

0:17:36entirely in which case like you just

0:17:37deal with the clutter or I gave people a

0:17:40way to like

0:17:41like the the newer Android and like I

0:17:44don't know if it's hard coded 27 or you

0:17:46can adjust it but only show a certain

0:17:47numbers who never gets more cluttered

0:17:49than some small amount you know or just

0:17:52make it to get rid of the pictures and

0:17:53do nothing else right now men and as

0:17:56drew said there is still of course an

0:17:58android way to actually for script to

0:17:59kill things it's it's more deeply buried

0:18:01but it's there and as many people

0:18:02pointed out to us on iOS there is

0:18:04another way to force with applications

0:18:06besides flicking them up you can also do

0:18:07the hold down the power button thing but

0:18:09instead of swiping to turn off the phone

0:18:11you you hold down the home button or

0:18:12anyway there are lots of ways to force

0:18:14quit things but flicking up of the

0:18:17squares half of it is the force quitting

0:18:19habit and the the voodoo and

0:18:21superstition about that and the other

0:18:23half is just people like things to be

0:18:25neat and tidy and both of those things

0:18:26have I feel like detrimental effects on

0:18:29the experience of using the phone

0:18:31probably i would say more detrimental

0:18:32than the mental distress caused by

0:18:34having lots of rectangles but I guess

0:18:36that's something to worsen things around

0:18:37outside on their own our first part

0:18:40design is fracture fracture prints

0:18:43photos in vivid color directly on glass

0:18:46now you can hang these anywhere you can

0:18:48put them on desk and put them on walls

0:18:49you can give them as gifts these glass

0:18:52photo prints look amazing

0:18:54I have them all over our house now

0:18:56they're they're everywhere we have

0:18:57fractures everywhere now there they

0:18:58started out a few in the office then

0:19:00they became a lot in the office and they

0:19:02spread outside the office now there's a

0:19:04couple in the kitchen and one in the den

0:19:05i think there might even be some of the

0:19:07stairs now

0:19:08and of course you sent a lot of them as

0:19:09gifts as well fractures are great

0:19:11because these are photo prints on these

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0:19:17and so they have this foam board backing

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0:19:20can have a picture hangnail even comes

0:19:22in the box with the screw you need to

0:19:24hang into a wall

0:19:25I Morgan was a lightweight triangle nail

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0:19:31with it they ship them really nice they

0:19:33don't break and shipping and they just

0:19:35look fantastic you have this

0:19:36edge-to-edge print and vivid color of

0:19:38your photo and we can be it can be an

0:19:41illustration it can be a doodle it can

0:19:43be art it could be a photo from your

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0:19:46all look good and we have them

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0:20:24ah so there's been rumors about new

0:20:30macbook pros they're coming eventually

0:20:33first of all if you go back to the

0:20:36original article i believe it's it

0:20:39clarifies that its q4 of apples

0:20:42financial calendar they're coming which

0:20:43is july ok so the rumor is that that in

0:20:47in quote q4 this year which everyone

0:20:51interprets to mean October through

0:20:53December app will be releasing new

0:20:56macbook pros that are substantially

0:20:58redesigned so that they're you know

0:21:00they're going to be thinner gonna be

0:21:01like we're gonna have the new skylight

0:21:03cpus and they're going to have a few

0:21:05other interesting changes that we will

0:21:07talk about in a second so before you

0:21:09before you before you move on

0:21:11how confident are you about this whole

0:21:13queue for confusion because when I read

0:21:15this article my my overall sense of

0:21:17sadness was like q4 seriously how long

0:21:19have we been waiting for the macbook

0:21:21pros to get updated and now i have to

0:21:22wait until like the end of the year like

0:21:25the fall and winter time and then you

0:21:28telling me I don't know q4 is not that

0:21:29the financial q4 which is different

0:21:31makes me feel better but how sure are

0:21:33you about that because I have to know

0:21:34how to feel before you move it was good

0:21:36computers are going to be like I'm just

0:21:38repeating what other people said so

0:21:40maybe I'm not so sure I don't know now

0:21:42it now I'm doubting everything

0:21:43well anyway all i can say is that if if

0:21:46you if you people can't get one of these

0:21:48things in their hands until the end of

0:21:49the year that seems like that seems bad

0:21:52like I mean you can blame Intel for a

0:21:54certain amount of the delay but really

0:21:56like we can't get new macbook pros until

0:21:59the end of 2016 if I had told you in at

0:22:02the end of 2014 that there's not going

0:22:04to be new macbook pros until the end of

0:22:06yeah I don't like it especially

0:22:09i think it's it's made worse because of

0:22:11the fact that the the researchers long

0:22:13delay with Intel's cpus hear that

0:22:16they're currently shipping basically

0:22:19three year old cpu like that the guts of

0:22:21the macbook pro that you buy today

0:22:23there've been there was like the one

0:22:24minor update in mid-2015 but it was a

0:22:27very minor update it changed almost

0:22:29nothing about them and so basically

0:22:31you're buying like 23 year old hardware

0:22:34today as the curse of the pro label

0:22:36right this is you would put on a cpu

0:22:38ages to be three years old in the market

0:22:40I think that's the new rules

0:22:42yeah which I mean like cosmetics aside I

0:22:45mean you know we can talk about cosmetic

0:22:46in a minute but like just the fact that

0:22:48apple continues to sell really pretty

0:22:51ancient hardware by computing standards

0:22:53for so long now you know we talked about

0:22:55before like I know why some of these

0:22:57things are this way like I know that

0:22:59they that they generally wait until

0:23:01there's like a substantial cpu update

0:23:03from Intel and that those have been

0:23:05delayed in recent years but that has to

0:23:08change because I know they do care but

0:23:12when they let the hardware age for this

0:23:14long

0:23:15still at the top of the line it looks

0:23:16like they don't care anymore about it

0:23:18and I again I know they do care but this

0:23:21is how it looks to buyers this is how it

0:23:22looks in the market it looks like apples

0:23:24just ignoring the mac and letting these

0:23:26things language and don't know if that's

0:23:28true it looks that way to nerds to tech

0:23:31nerds other people don't even know what

0:23:32that is in them but I mean where its

0:23:34technical podcast know people do people

0:23:36do research you know you you gotta get

0:23:38give people credit they do their

0:23:39research and when people are looking to

0:23:41buy an Apple computer they go online and

0:23:43they look and they find things like the

0:23:45microwave buying guide says like all the

0:23:46stuff is three years old like like the

0:23:48people do their research they find stuff

0:23:50out they know anybody who see it finds

0:23:53the macrumors buying guide is pretty far

0:23:54over into the computer and everything I

0:23:56it's a factor i'm just saying like there

0:23:58is there is a whole other section of the

0:23:59population that never looks that stuff

0:24:01but in the grand scheme of things even

0:24:03if they don't know they're still even if

0:24:05you don't know or care about the age of

0:24:06the cpu you are still affected by

0:24:07because it's actually affects the useful

0:24:09lifetime of your computer because it is

0:24:11a three year old cpu whether you know it

0:24:13or not and so three years later using a

0:24:15six-year-old cpu whereas a battle kept

0:24:17up-to-date you would have more life left

0:24:19in your lap

0:24:19top then it's not as bad as be spending

0:24:23this vs SD where you're you know you

0:24:25sort of prematurely age when you realize

0:24:27that everyone else as these but you know

0:24:29maybe you can upgrade years or whatever

0:24:30cpus don't hate your laptop as bad as

0:24:33other things but it's all cumulative and

0:24:35basically what we're doing is here as as

0:24:37people knowledgeable about you know the

0:24:39platform and the products is we're

0:24:41judging the products how good the

0:24:42product is this and you can't judge it

0:24:46to be a particularly stellar product if

0:24:48the innards are really old and out of

0:24:50date and as you know as time marches on

0:24:51and competitor products get better

0:24:54innards for usually less or the same

0:24:57money you have to judge Apple's products

0:24:59more harshly and as people who other

0:25:01people might ask about computers you

0:25:03might say now is not a good time to buy

0:25:05the macbook pros with it they're going

0:25:07to be updated soon but if we've been

0:25:09saying that for two years at a certain

0:25:10point where like is I don't know if it's

0:25:12bad advice is good advice for trying to

0:25:14kind of predict the future like you

0:25:15should you buy this should not but once

0:25:18it's a three year old cpu even if

0:25:19numerical approach didn't come out for

0:25:21another year

0:25:23you can't really good conscience tell

0:25:25people you should buy this computer

0:25:27assisted great product you could say you

0:25:28should buy a computer because it

0:25:29basically your only choice if you want a

0:25:31mac laptop like you know the these

0:25:32laptops they sell and a whole bunch of

0:25:34them are better and compromise in a

0:25:35bunch of reasons but if you need a

0:25:37laptop now you got to get one but I can

0:25:39honestly say this is not actually a star

0:25:40product unlike say the 5k iMac which

0:25:42came out of the gate and I was you know

0:25:44good and all the the ways we expected to

0:25:46be good right oh yeah i mean like the 5k

0:25:49imac has been fantastic and that has

0:25:51like that is you know that originally

0:25:53came out a year and a half ago and then

0:25:55six months ago they made the updated

0:25:56version and it's it's a fantastic

0:25:58computer it is it has new up-to-date

0:26:01components it was updated one year after

0:26:03came out with even newer even more

0:26:05up-to-date components like that is a

0:26:07healthy release cycle

0:26:08yeah you know with regard to the date

0:26:10something to consider is and we're

0:26:12getting--we're going to get to some

0:26:14interesting new hardware tidbits in a

0:26:16second but what if one of those hardware

0:26:18tidbits requires a major release of OS

0:26:2010 and that isn't doesn't typically

0:26:23shift until fall so maybe it is the fall

0:26:27because they need the software and I

0:26:30know they'll be like a point release

0:26:31ahead for a lot of things but I

0:26:33I don't I don't think today's apple is

0:26:34delaying hardware for software all

0:26:36absolutely they are not except for

0:26:38except for new devices like the watch

0:26:40you know you're going to see the watch

0:26:41but for her laptops I'm saying even if

0:26:44they have a weird screen above the

0:26:45keyboard that we'll get to in a minute

0:26:46like they don't just work that into the

0:26:49old OS if they needed to ship them like

0:26:51they do that so many times where some

0:26:54boring old Mac is ready to ship but the

0:26:56the they would like ship with the new OS

0:26:58but it's not available with it so

0:26:59they'll end up checking that you did

0:27:01with OS versions like the net up

0:27:02shipping it with the with leopard or

0:27:04something when not leopard without with

0:27:07Tiger even though lever was about to

0:27:09come out and then people would get it by

0:27:10the time they get into the story was

0:27:12still have the old OS but then you get

0:27:14it and they would upgrade you for free

0:27:15or whatever like I don't think

0:27:17especially with i was 10 i don't think

0:27:19that's what they would be holding back

0:27:20this hard work and wait for the software

0:27:21unless there's some amazing new feature

0:27:23nobody here's here's the scenario here

0:27:25alright so the new laptop suppose it has

0:27:28touch ID like this report says and

0:27:31everyone says there's going to be Cirie

0:27:33in new OS 10 so suppose it has a touch

0:27:35ID button or surface or circle or

0:27:37something maybe the power button who

0:27:38knows somewhere there's a touch ID think

0:27:40they're right and then also somewhere on

0:27:43the keyboard in the in the effing row

0:27:44then look at which we'll get to in a

0:27:46minute in the afternoon maybe the Serie

0:27:47button there is no OS 10 version until

0:27:51the fall that will that will support

0:27:53those things in all likelihood the OS 10

0:27:56version that comes out in the fall they

0:27:58can't bring those things forward or they

0:27:59won't bring those before they don't feel

0:28:01bring those things forward to get

0:28:02through it earlier because the OS 10

0:28:04version the fall also has stuff that

0:28:06integrates with the iOS version coming

0:28:08in the fall and the iOS version coming

0:28:10in the fall is tied to the iphone

0:28:11hardware schedule and the entire company

0:28:13is dictated by the iphone hardware

0:28:15schedule know that seems plausible i

0:28:17forgot about touch ID thing without the

0:28:18secure Enclave the other thing like

0:28:20assuming there's touch anything that's

0:28:21probably a secure Enclave thing and

0:28:24that's yeah the screen i say no because

0:28:26the screenwriter driver for us but the

0:28:28touch ID and that security stuff

0:28:30yeah alright well that's that's crappy

0:28:33but that's life

0:28:35it's so that's right so we we've bounced

0:28:37off the outer atmosphere of the changes

0:28:40here but we should probably talk about

0:28:42it so it's gonna be really cute for

0:28:43probably it's probably gonna be like

0:28:45some timber October ok

0:28:46a fair enough so there's apparently

0:28:49going to be a replaced effing row where

0:28:54all the f1 f2 f3 etc keys are now little

0:28:57mini oled displays i'm not sure what to

0:29:00make about I feel like there was a

0:29:01keyboard that it would likely in the pre

0:29:03Kickstarter days but it was a

0:29:05Kickstarter kind of project where there

0:29:08was a keyboard that they wanted like the

0:29:09entire keyboard to have little mini

0:29:11displays on each key and the theory was

0:29:13which made a lot of sense to me it was

0:29:15the optimist keyboard was it ok by the

0:29:18art lib dems studio

0:29:19yes yes that's right you're absolutely

0:29:21right

0:29:22did that ever ship yeah it was delayed

0:29:24for like years i think and it would end

0:29:26up being very expensive but i think it

0:29:28did in fact ship and now there's like

0:29:30now like a bunch of keyboards now do the

0:29:32exact same thing here sits there

0:29:34yes so that the idea being that you know

0:29:36all of these different displays can be

0:29:38reprogrammed so think of sort of kind of

0:29:41having all the benefits of a keyboard on

0:29:45screen like on a phone or tablet but

0:29:48it's still a physical keyboard but you

0:29:49can reprogram with the key show and

0:29:51potentially what they do and so I can

0:29:54see maybe you have like a yellow on the

0:29:57current keyboards the f what is this fa

0:30:00f8 key is play pause well maybe it's

0:30:03play pause in finder or by default but

0:30:06maybe in other apps it does other things

0:30:08and it shows you right on the key like a

0:30:11little logo or or maybe even a logo in

0:30:13the word so as to what it does so I can

0:30:16see this being neat but I all I also i'm

0:30:20not sure that this is something I really

0:30:22need but I'm anxious to see what they're

0:30:24going to do with it what do you guys

0:30:25think Marco you you have tweeted about

0:30:28this and don't sound too enthusiastic is

0:30:30that fair to say well so if the the

0:30:32initial reporting of this rumor had it

0:30:34as the FN key role would be would

0:30:37disappear like the keys would no longer

0:30:39be there should be one screen one screen

0:30:41not keys with screens on the right

0:30:43exactly and that's the initial rumors

0:30:45that it would be 11 like one long strip

0:30:47of of oled screen and it would be

0:30:50touch-sensitive and so you would just

0:30:51like push it like it's like it's a

0:30:53skinny ipad screen basically and so that

0:30:55you know if that ends up being if this

0:30:58thing is real and if that ends up being

0:30:59the way it's done

0:31:00I don't like that very much at least on

0:31:02principle will see you know if they

0:31:04actually did something like that

0:31:05we'll see how it turns out a change your

0:31:07mind but I there was a discussion with

0:31:10about that particular rumor on clockwise

0:31:12this week today actually so that I think

0:31:15like not having physical buttons to push

0:31:18their on this keyboard that you're

0:31:21probably not looking at like yeah the

0:31:24the keys in the effing row are not that

0:31:26frequently pushed by most people but for

0:31:29the people who do frequently push them

0:31:31and that you know the other include some

0:31:32pretty important keys like escape which

0:31:34is like that your shortcut to cancel

0:31:36dialog boxes which is kind of frequently

0:31:38hit also frequently if your vm user

0:31:40among other things a lot of programs are

0:31:43for code completion so like there-there

0:31:45are and as you said like the media keys

0:31:48the volume up and down the play/pause

0:31:50the mute anybody who uses the the

0:31:53various like things that used to be

0:31:55called expose their now lumped into all

0:31:57these other things and i always use an

0:32:0011-4 show desktop like those things

0:32:03those are very frequently hit by by a

0:32:06good number of users i think and so if

0:32:09you remove those as keys at all and it's

0:32:11just this this touch surface that you

0:32:13need to reprint we need to look at it to

0:32:15see what you're hitting

0:32:16and you wouldn't get the physical

0:32:18feedback of a keypress to know that you

0:32:20did hit it correctly that is high i

0:32:24really hope we never get to that point

0:32:26because you know there's a reason why in

0:32:30all these all the effort that we've put

0:32:32into making things thinner and lighter

0:32:34and mechanically simpler and removing

0:32:36buttons

0:32:37there's a reason we still have keyboard

0:32:40buttons on computers even when you look

0:32:42at the macbook one and you see we barely

0:32:45have keyboard buttons but we still have

0:32:47keyboard buttons for reason and that is

0:32:50that when you are not looking when

0:32:51you're typing blind it is way easier and

0:32:54more accurate and faster and

0:32:55ergonomically better to have key

0:32:57switches that blew up and down but you

0:32:58can feel when you push so the idea of

0:33:01replacing this this trip with something

0:33:04but with no LED strip to to accomplish

0:33:07various goals you know that the benefits

0:33:09here would be you could make you can put

0:33:12stuff under that part

0:33:14to make because it would be thinner

0:33:15wouldn't need any kind of travel under

0:33:17it and presumably these the screen but

0:33:18it could be very thin in the keyboard

0:33:20row could be so you could shove more

0:33:22more of the computers guts or battery

0:33:24under that area so you have you save

0:33:26something there it would look cool maybe

0:33:29if you look tacky so you'd say that you

0:33:32know you gain something there you go

0:33:33banner ads on a towel it's not a

0:33:35Chromebook nevermind yeah yeah yeah so

0:33:38like there you could see the reason to

0:33:40this and and I should point also like

0:33:41any use for like status things and pc

0:33:44laptops have had displays it you know

0:33:46above the keyboard that show statuses of

0:33:49things for for a long time

0:33:50also on the covers and on the back on

0:33:52the side this BS was in every possible

0:33:54surface of pc laptops there was a

0:33:56windows feature they were touting like

0:33:5710 years ago they were like the new

0:33:59windows features like secondary screens

0:34:01on laptops and it's always supported and

0:34:03basically pc manufacturers go ahead

0:34:05figure out where it's a good idea to put

0:34:07a screen and you just try to sell things

0:34:09like this and r us will support them and

0:34:11doesn't seem like a really caught on

0:34:12that much

0:34:12yeah so anyway like Apple could do this

0:34:15that way with with replacing the FN key

0:34:17entirely different hero entirely with

0:34:19with a screen i hope they don't do it

0:34:21that way unfortunately we've heard from

0:34:23a certain tipster that that's not how

0:34:25they're going to do it that that the the

0:34:28tipster suggested that what he saw or

0:34:32around was not that version of it but

0:34:36was was instead a you still had the the

0:34:40physical buttons and the screen

0:34:42augmented the buttons in in some way so

0:34:45that I'm hoping that is correct and that

0:34:49i wouldn't mind if Apple does this right

0:34:52i think it's it's gonna be fine i really

0:34:56hope they don't get rid of the entire

0:34:57effing kero itself because I really want

0:34:59those keys to be there but I don't

0:35:00really care how they're labeled I got an

0:35:03idea you could sell an external keyboard

0:35:05like this and called the Apple extended

0:35:06keyboard and then finally happened with

0:35:08selling keyboard that is not a tiny

0:35:10little piece of crap with no inverted T

0:35:12arrow keys on it i don't get him started

0:35:15don't even get me started you're wrong

0:35:16sir some chatroom credit a windows side

0:35:19show was what the great name

0:35:22that's fantastic like the the external

0:35:24like the support for weird

0:35:26secondary displays on laptops and Nathan

0:35:28and pointed out that a man was trying to

0:35:30think it was a OS 10 lion came out with

0:35:33Renault Sport 10.7 point five because

0:35:35basically the the fully read and

0:35:36supporting a os10 wasn't out yet

0:35:38yeah and the old the app store came to

0:35:4010 610 68 ya think ya anyway so that's

0:35:44that's the FN key role I think we have

0:35:46that well coverlet of other other

0:35:48comments on that I think the idea of

0:35:51having a big like you know that the

0:35:54doctor says that I'm doing but just

0:35:55having a big flat screen like the the

0:35:58obvious reasons that's bad and you're

0:36:00one over them like they do you know you

0:36:02feel turkeys you want to feel the edges

0:36:03are it span but it's just one big flat

0:36:05screen but I have to think and we've

0:36:08joked about this so many times and

0:36:09talking about the macbook keyboard and

0:36:10everything like well why even have keys

0:36:12at all is going to be so little travel

0:36:13and part of the whole big sales pitch of

0:36:15the original iphone presentation was

0:36:17like I look at all these phones they

0:36:18have all these buttons on them but you

0:36:20kind of have to pick the buttons when

0:36:21you make the phone and you can't change

0:36:22after the fact but what if we made the

0:36:23whole screen of the phone the whole

0:36:24surface of the phone screen then you

0:36:26have to worry about with the buttons are

0:36:27because software we can change them all

0:36:28time and everybody said yeah all

0:36:30software but then how the hell can you

0:36:31feel the keys when you're trying to type

0:36:32on the thing because it's just a big

0:36:34flat screen we work that out as a

0:36:37society we now know how to type on a on

0:36:41flat screen phones

0:36:42it's a little bit different because the

0:36:44focal distance between looking at the

0:36:46keyboard and looking at the screen is a

0:36:48little bit better on a phone than it is

0:36:50on a laptop combination like you're kind

0:36:52of looking in the same place at the same

0:36:54distance as opposed to you know looking

0:36:56at the keyboard obviously touch type of

0:36:58starting to say I don't like this second

0:37:00i'm a touch typist I don't have to look

0:37:01at the keyboard

0:37:02I wonder what percentage of the world

0:37:04population looks at the keyboard when

0:37:06they type not on a phone i'm like a

0:37:08regular like laptop or desktop keyboard

0:37:11maybe it's pretty high maybe it's not I

0:37:13don't know but they still have the same

0:37:14focal distance question anyway I there

0:37:16was the final thing that I can't

0:37:17remember the source of this may be one

0:37:18of you will was it was an Aymara

0:37:19somebody did a survey of how fast can

0:37:24you touch type on a on ipad keyboard

0:37:26like a totally glass keyboard by age and

0:37:29they split up by age and the old people

0:37:31of course were horrendously bad touch

0:37:33typing on it and the younger you got the

0:37:36bigger the bars get up to the point

0:37:37where people were typing faster on the

0:37:39ipad keyboard then I can touch on a real

0:37:41type on a real keyboard i'm a terrible

0:37:43typist is not a big judge but they were

0:37:44into like you know over 60 words a

0:37:46minute this is cortex by the way I was

0:37:49the context yep

0:37:50yeah anyway um it makes me wonder about

0:37:52the future like it for now we're all

0:37:55glad if they do the separate buttons

0:37:57with LED things that looks cool we can

0:37:59feel the bottom edges and I know I don't

0:38:01look at the keyboard when I hit the

0:38:02Escape key and many other things like

0:38:04I'm not really a touch typist I don't

0:38:05type the right way but in practice I can

0:38:07program without looking at the keyboard

0:38:09even though my fingers are doing

0:38:10completely the incorrect thing down

0:38:13there but you were going to get old and

0:38:17retire and die and eventually I don't

0:38:20think it's too unrealistic to imagine

0:38:22that it's possible not guaranteed but

0:38:24possible that future future future apple

0:38:26laptops could either a not exist or be

0:38:30just have an entirely you know have an

0:38:34entire screen for the keyboard area

0:38:35because it would be thinner and it would

0:38:36be infinitely configurable and people do

0:38:39get used to them and people can actually

0:38:40get fast with them and it makes me a

0:38:42wonder about the future

0:38:43yeah i mean like i think my ideal setup

0:38:47here because I do recognize like the the

0:38:49advantages of having like dynamic

0:38:51softkeys where you mean maybe some of

0:38:54them the system defined as always having

0:38:56pretty much the same function things

0:38:57like you know volume controls and then

0:39:00some of them you know our application

0:39:02defined and applications consider when

0:39:05you have like photoshop or logic or

0:39:06whatever active then you can map these

0:39:08buttons to these commands and actually

0:39:09show them on there and that that makes

0:39:12it easier to learn the keyboard

0:39:13shortcuts and were these functions

0:39:14become more accessible and everything

0:39:16like that there is also do the fuzzy

0:39:18targets too just like the phone keyboard

0:39:20does that was another big selling point

0:39:21the phone keyboard like oh we know that

0:39:22the most likely in the English language

0:39:24the next letters has a much higher

0:39:26percentage chance to be you know in our

0:39:28than X so even though you're a little

0:39:30bit off of the the key that you're

0:39:32trying to hit will you know like the

0:39:34sort of fuzzy matching for where your

0:39:36figures tap and you might think oh I

0:39:39don't need that when the keys are

0:39:40full-size but maybe you do maybe it

0:39:43would help like there are things you can

0:39:44do with a completely software-controlled

0:39:46fully flat glass

0:39:48keyboard that you can do with a physical

0:39:49one will ride might be good but i like

0:39:52it to me I i think that the the happy

0:39:55medium here would be that you still have

0:39:57the physical buttons there that you know

0:40:01like because I mean if you're doing the

0:40:02entire keyboard not just the f0 if you

0:40:06need a higher keyboard i think your

0:40:08argument makes more sense even though i

0:40:10think i would hate that but you would

0:40:12have it would be so much more powerful

0:40:13as you could do things like well the

0:40:15entire left half is going to be a jog

0:40:17wheel instead of keys you know like you

0:40:20could do dynamic stuff ya know that

0:40:22that's what I'm saying that this is the

0:40:23entire thing would be just it would just

0:40:25be like be you know just like tapping on

0:40:27ipad is just one big flat piece of glass

0:40:28with all the not a bunch of individual

0:40:30keys like because it almost feels like a

0:40:32weird in-between State to have like the

0:40:34optimist keyboard where it's like we

0:40:36want the keys to be infinitely

0:40:37configurable they'll always be the same

0:40:38size and position right but I think in

0:40:41the context of a mac and you know

0:40:44especially a mac laptop wear whatever

0:40:46keyboard bass they ship in a mac laptop

0:40:48you're stuck with like you know I mean

0:40:50you could put other keyboards like on

0:40:52desks when you go park it on a desk but

0:40:54like when you are out in the world or

0:40:57using your laptop like on the couch or

0:40:59by itself with no additional hardware

0:41:01and that's like whatever keyboard that

0:41:03that hasn't it you don't have a choice

0:41:04so I think in the current context of

0:41:08like how people use macs and pcs like I

0:41:12think it's important to have a physical

0:41:13keyboard and I think you know looking at

0:41:15things like a macbook one where you know

0:41:17Apple goes to incredible lengths to make

0:41:19a really crappy physical keyboard but

0:41:22it's still better than typing on glass I

0:41:24I think Apple probably agrees that the

0:41:26Sun Apple agrees that you know in the

0:41:29mac landscape you need physical keys so

0:41:32if you're gonna have physical keys and

0:41:33you want this this key strip to be

0:41:35dynamic it makes sense to also keep

0:41:38those as physical keys because the way

0:41:40people are going to be using that

0:41:41keyboard is still going to be based on

0:41:43field for the most part and you're not

0:41:46really going to gain much you know if if

0:41:48you only have a thin strip on top of the

0:41:51keyboard to customize the software

0:41:53you're not really going to gain much by

0:41:56by having that be a flat touch surface

0:41:58that you wouldn't also have by having

0:42:00them be

0:42:00Silky's and you and you also want there

0:42:03will be no cost to it then to the user

0:42:05like there will be no downside if

0:42:06they're still physical keys you're gonna

0:42:07change the labels on them you know that

0:42:09then then there's no complaint there's

0:42:11no downside except cost and complexity

0:42:12but you know seems like apples okay with

0:42:14that i think that sounds fine and I

0:42:18think that that would that be my happy

0:42:19medium is sure if you're gonna do this

0:42:21at all

0:42:22make it like the optimist keyboard puts

0:42:23create put some kind of screens on each

0:42:25key or put a big screen below all the

0:42:27keys make them clear or something I

0:42:28don't know but that's yeah it'll be a

0:42:31screen HQ but like out for the big flat

0:42:34glass thing you can also cover the

0:42:36trackpad that point too i get an

0:42:37estimate of its a simplification that

0:42:39may improve your resistible eventually I

0:42:41if if the customer base eventually get

0:42:43to the point where they feel like we can

0:42:45sell this product and not too many

0:42:46people complaints of the really old

0:42:48people

0:42:48yeah i just want extended keyboard is

0:42:50that too much to ask that is not a thing

0:42:51anymore that apple doesn't really it's

0:42:53like they want the keyboard to be super

0:42:55small because they're all used on

0:42:56submarines or whatever i don't know i

0:42:57don't want the use cases for constantly

0:42:59making the keyboard not just their fine

0:43:01whatever I don't really care that much

0:43:02about that but narrower like am I using

0:43:04in coach class on United I don't know

0:43:07what why does it have to be so I've got

0:43:08this big desk here like like take off

0:43:11the numeric keypad fine but you can be

0:43:13inverted T I use I use those keys when i

0:43:16type and program also a quick comment on

0:43:19the fitness of keyboards here just first

0:43:21second articles are saying that this new

0:43:24macbook pro has a thinner keyboard that

0:43:28is like the macbook one keyboard this

0:43:31would normally freak me out except the

0:43:32tipster said many times in the chat that

0:43:35yes it is that general type of keyboard

0:43:38however it is much closer to the new

0:43:41standalone magic keyboard then the

0:43:44macbook ones total crap keyboard

0:43:46I've tried the magic keyboard in the

0:43:48store in okc you love yours right

0:43:50I cannot say enough good things about it

0:43:52with the exception I i agree out prefer

0:43:54the inverted T but I've learned to move

0:43:57on from it

0:43:58don't page down home and then don't miss

0:44:00those guys and being a normal place

0:44:02where you can find them really easily

0:44:03no really honestly that's what years

0:44:05this seriously you don't use page up and

0:44:07page down know you have the Marquis but

0:44:10i never use them you swipe on your silly

0:44:12little mice when I used windows

0:44:14as I used home and end of the time but

0:44:16now i use command left member and that's

0:44:17you know right now home and then doing

0:44:19what they're supposed to do not what

0:44:20they doing windows me what we're gonna

0:44:22do is I'm gonna beginning of the line of

0:44:25that home but world is that home at the

0:44:27top and the bottom thats command up in

0:44:29command down easy peasy

0:44:31so the point is so yeah I love the magic

0:44:33keyboard is my favorite keyboard that

0:44:35I've ever used and i have tried just

0:44:38about any of the popular keyboards or

0:44:40close variants thereof and I grew up on

0:44:43the IBM was at the IBM or something like

0:44:45that

0:44:45the the ridiculous chuckling springs you

0:44:48love him

0:44:48yeah and so I i'm not a keyboard snob

0:44:52and I don't really typically care for

0:44:54really loud clicking keyboards however i

0:44:57love the magic keyboard more than

0:45:00anything in the only flaw I see it is i

0:45:02do agree with you that I wish I had the

0:45:03inverted T so I love this thing

0:45:05yeah totally with you on that but

0:45:07overall like the magic keyboard i think

0:45:10it's fine like I i have no problem with

0:45:12that so if the tipster is right that the

0:45:14new macbook pro keyboard is much closer

0:45:17to that than to the macbook one keyboard

0:45:19that's fine

0:45:21however i would just generally to say

0:45:23like I there were a few people on

0:45:24Twitter who were kind of saying worrying

0:45:26things to me earlier about how think

0:45:27keyboard to keep getting thinner it is

0:45:30great to have laptops that are thin

0:45:33light but in general what matters more

0:45:35is the light not the thin and keyboards

0:45:38way almost nothing

0:45:40no matter how thick they are like the

0:45:42keyboard component of a laptop is mostly

0:45:45empty space and the key travel is all

0:45:48empty space of course the kids have to

0:45:49move up and down all matter is mostly

0:45:51empty space

0:45:52thanks John and I so happy you had an

0:45:57idea i was on the kick of like trying to

0:46:00stop email from people who had the idea

0:46:04the new the new level of well actually

0:46:06well actually all matters most and

0:46:08anybody gone i was gonna do it all right

0:46:14so anyway so yeah keyboards are

0:46:16extremely lightweight if you're talking

0:46:19about making laptops thinner and lighter

0:46:21again lighter matters more than thinner

0:46:24and if it gets to the point where you

0:46:27start sacrifice

0:46:28pricing the usability of the keyboard if

0:46:31you have to ship a crappy keyboard in

0:46:34order to make the laptop you know

0:46:36appealing visually to make it thinner

0:46:39from the side which is an angle with

0:46:40nobody ever looks at it i think that's a

0:46:42bad choice i think apple went too far

0:46:44with that but also harder to pick up by

0:46:46the way as they get better it gets

0:46:48harder to eventually it's like and I

0:46:50know they cut the edges and they make it

0:46:51but like at a certain point of you being

0:46:53thinner and thinner you don't have

0:46:54enough edge left to even come up and

0:46:56have like you put it down is like trying

0:46:58to pick a cooling-off very smooth table

0:47:00is hard to do

0:47:00yeah it also makes it harder to open the

0:47:02lid but anyway and that's will wait to

0:47:04anyway so like my point is i think if

0:47:07you are optimizing a laptop for thinness

0:47:09I think you're optimizing it for the

0:47:11wrong thing you should let them this

0:47:13follow from battery removals which will

0:47:17result in a more efficient cpus more

0:47:19efficient components things like that

0:47:20and and things like getting rid of the

0:47:21optical drive and you know make another

0:47:23command center but i don't think you

0:47:24should ever be at a point where you are

0:47:27making the keyboard hard to use or less

0:47:30economically friendly or otherwise

0:47:32horrible for the sake of Shaving like

0:47:34another millimeter off the case

0:47:35thickness because if the laptop is still

0:47:38very light and it's just like a

0:47:41millimeter thicker to accommodate better

0:47:42key switches that's fine

0:47:45like that that's an acceptable trade-off

0:47:46for a laptop because you want laptops to

0:47:49be light but you don't need them to be

0:47:51paper-thin and if you just like it we're

0:47:54not talking about a big difference here

0:47:56we're not talking about like going back

0:47:57to the old powerbook g4 thickness to

0:47:59have a decent keyboard you don't need

0:48:01that you can look at today you can look

0:48:03at the macbook air and you can look at

0:48:05the macbook pro today and you know

0:48:07personally what about to be in a few

0:48:08months you can make a great laptop with

0:48:12a great keyboard that's very very thin

0:48:14but i think the map one took it too far

0:48:16and and it sounds like with with the

0:48:18these nuru macbook pros if all the

0:48:21rumors are right if tipsters right i

0:48:23think we'll be okay again I think we

0:48:24will have really achieved a good balance

0:48:26here so I'm looking forward to seeing

0:48:28how it turns out i hope Apple does it

0:48:30right and in general like i have i've

0:48:32been you know very critical the macbook

0:48:35one even the people of it that's fine if

0:48:36you can if you love it

0:48:37good for you i'm happy for you in

0:48:39general I expect

0:48:41the new macbook pro to be awesome

0:48:44both 13 and 15 based on both what we've

0:48:47heard what's been reported and just

0:48:49based on you know Apple the things that

0:48:53really matter

0:48:54things like the iPhone Apple is really

0:48:57how they have a fantastic track record

0:48:59you know Apple has never made a bad

0:49:02iphone and similarly I don't think Apple

0:49:05has ever made a bad macbook pro there

0:49:08were there been a few that have been

0:49:09slightly imperfect but for the most part

0:49:11the macbook pro they just nail is it has

0:49:15such a good history such a good track

0:49:18record and they it has to because the

0:49:21macbook pro is like the workhorse of the

0:49:25entire industry like pretty much every

0:49:28like web developer most you know almost

0:49:30every Apple Developer tons people inside

0:49:32Apple tons of journalists tons of people

0:49:34tons of students like the macbook pro is

0:49:37such the workhorse of so many people

0:49:39they can't screw like they like it

0:49:42like legally they can't they just can't

0:49:44screw it up like and they know that

0:49:45Apple I think would not take lightly

0:49:48major changes to the macbook pro and

0:49:51their track record is so good that i am

0:49:53confident that this is going to be

0:49:54awesome and so I you know even though

0:49:58i'm skeptical of many of the things that

0:49:59Apple does these days I I definitely

0:50:02give him the benefit of the doubt that

0:50:04whatever we here but this new macbook

0:50:07pro that might sound a little bit weird

0:50:08it's probably going to be awesome

0:50:10yeah i agree i'm really looking forward

0:50:14to this to me i feel like i would just

0:50:18be thrilled if the next Mac Pro had a

0:50:21keyboard as close to the magic keyboard

0:50:23as possible and also an SD card slot

0:50:26that didn't rip my damn SD card reach

0:50:28switch SD card slot no no you get USB 3

0:50:32ports USB c-type see connectors and

0:50:35that's all you like it mr. and probably

0:50:37right and I was being silly about the SD

0:50:39card thing but anyway I think an

0:50:41improved keyboard would be great i don't

0:50:42think the current keyboards are bad i

0:50:44just freaking love he imagined keyboard

0:50:46but i agree with you mark i think that

0:50:48that they have a great track record and

0:50:50I I can't see them releasing a dud and

0:50:54even though some of these rumors are

0:50:55making me scratching my head a little

0:50:56bit i'm really really amped to see these

0:50:59and also miserable because i'm not

0:51:02getting a new mac from for more work for

0:51:04another two years i think and I'm

0:51:07certainly not buying one for home so

0:51:08i'll be sad i'm still looking for

0:51:12reading air i know the 13 will be so the

0:51:15middle almost the air like but now that

0:51:17the air has been treated up from that of

0:51:19the 5k imac used to have the air connect

0:51:21with Thunderbolt Display not just the

0:51:22air is like rallying around the house

0:51:24and my daughter is smearing or you're

0:51:26recovered fingers on it and I'm

0:51:27routinely cleaning it anyway

0:51:2813 chair is such a great form factor for

0:51:31laptop is such a good machine the screen

0:51:33is crap but everything is about it is

0:51:37like a 2011 model right that screen is

0:51:39not good but everything else about it is

0:51:40just so nice and because it's a 21-month

0:51:42like five year old computer it looks

0:51:44great it and so now hopefully maybe

0:51:48these 13 will get down to the point

0:51:49where it's getting close that because

0:51:51there haven't been updated and he said

0:51:52the pros the workforce is the workhorse

0:51:54of like you know professional people are

0:51:55people who need some sort of computing

0:51:57power to their job but the air is worthy

0:52:00sort of computing for the the lap the

0:52:05apple laptop for the rest of us where

0:52:07you're not going to be compiling stuff

0:52:08you just want to like browse the rebbe

0:52:10web and write papers for school or

0:52:11whatever its it was such a great student

0:52:13computers such a great computer people

0:52:15don't have particularly demanding needs

0:52:16a real a real high point they're going

0:52:18to look back on the the great max the

0:52:21the 13 chair that that design that genet

0:52:23if not the particular interests but like

0:52:25when they redesigned the case and

0:52:26everything

0:52:27yeah it was a great computer that's the

0:52:28zone and so like that the pros the first

0:52:32threatening ones were pretty impressive

0:52:33and now they're going to go super thin

0:52:35and just have the USBC port on the side

0:52:37and just shave off all those things

0:52:38these have the potential to be really

0:52:40great long-lasting computers to remember

0:52:43the that the touch ID and the weird you

0:52:47know screen keys and stuff also has the

0:52:50potential to have them go wrong until

0:52:51they sort that out but like you said

0:52:54like they're surely they've had enough

0:52:55time to work out these kinks and this is

0:52:57the type of thing that could have been

0:52:58working on for a long time so

0:53:00I i have some confidence that they're

0:53:02going to be good as well although I have

0:53:04to admit when I saw you Marco tweeting

0:53:06about the thin keyboard thing I thought

0:53:09you were talking about their external

0:53:11desktop keyboard that also keep getting

0:53:13thinner for even advised us that even

0:53:15more mysterious reasons not just like

0:53:16you know I talked about the with before

0:53:18with the United but they're also getting

0:53:19like thinner as in lower to the desk is

0:53:22that is wasting away so that is going to

0:53:24give you a bunch of key caps and you

0:53:25throw them on your desk

0:53:27it's not really in Apple's demands I

0:53:30mean one of the reasons i don't use

0:53:31their desktop keyboard is that the

0:53:33ergonomics horrible on the men and I I

0:53:35need something better economics to

0:53:37prevent RSI problems in their defense

0:53:40though the worst thing about ergonomics

0:53:42of most desktop keyboard is when the

0:53:45back is higher than the front that you

0:53:47know the the former tilt and that's

0:53:49terrible for ergonomics and by the way

0:53:50anybody listening if you if you have the

0:53:52feet slipped up on the back so that your

0:53:54keyboard is tilted even more for God's

0:53:56sake flip those feet down put something

0:53:57under the front to make it level

0:53:59yeah there's a reason why you look at

0:54:00natural keyboards now let the microsoft

0:54:02sculpt and everything

0:54:04there's a reason why they come with this

0:54:05big riser on the front that lifts the

0:54:07front of so it's actually tilting away

0:54:09from you and everyone thinks it looks

0:54:11weird it does the first time you see it

0:54:13but way better for ergonomics there's a

0:54:15reason for that anyway you know it if

0:54:18Apple makes their keyboards thinner it

0:54:20actually reduces the tilt inherently and

0:54:23so it it's slightly improve the

0:54:25ergonomics they can still be totally

0:54:28level like I have a really old like

0:54:29translucent plastic apple USB keyboard i

0:54:31saw in the Attic when I was cleaning

0:54:32stuff up those were pretty much

0:54:34perfectly flat as well although they did

0:54:35have stupid feet in the back but anyway

0:54:37you can make a keyboard that is level it

0:54:39just doesn't have to be level and also

0:54:41the thickness of three credit cards

0:54:42because again i fear that they're going

0:54:44to get to the point where they're

0:54:45starting to sacrifice travel on the

0:54:46desktop models like what-what space are

0:54:48you saving the airspace above my desk

0:54:50you want to save two millimeters of

0:54:51airspace pleased with wise and height

0:54:54wise not going out to the thing that and

0:54:56I understand the part sharing with

0:54:57laptops like that's why I think about it

0:54:59could it could literally be the same

0:55:00exact part i haven't seen the magic

0:55:02keyboard i can't tell if it's actually a

0:55:03laptop for the part but anyway I

0:55:05understand the the economies of scale

0:55:07going on here

0:55:08I just think that the desktop keyboards

0:55:10and also the little edges around people

0:55:11like sometimes it's hard to pick up my

0:55:12keyboard

0:55:13remove it because how to help you pick

0:55:14it up because the key caps go right to

0:55:15the edge it's it's a little bit extreme

0:55:17it's a little bit we're getting into the

0:55:19realm of a form over function we're like

0:55:22what we have to do with the keyboard i

0:55:23want to type on it sometimes you have to

0:55:25move it around

0:55:26I don't really care if it looks like a I

0:55:30mean I do care if it looks like a

0:55:31beautiful piece of art but when that

0:55:32looks starts to compromise the basic

0:55:36things I do is my keyboard including

0:55:37occasionally picking them up or moving

0:55:39them around that silly but but that is

0:55:41today's apple like that the desktop

0:55:44keyboards I mean if there's ever a thing

0:55:47that they make that that that form over

0:55:49function wins its hits the it's like the

0:55:52desktop and peripherals because the the

0:55:55function part doesn't really matter

0:55:57anybody who cares about the ergonomics

0:56:00or the size of the layout of the key

0:56:01switches are the thickness of your

0:56:03desktop keyboard there is to use a

0:56:04different keyboard and this is like

0:56:06exactly the kind of area where Johnny is

0:56:09going to come in and be like all right

0:56:10well this needs to look even thinner and

0:56:12even sleeker so that looks great all of

0:56:14our press shots into the imac looks

0:56:15great and and they look great in the

0:56:17stores and the boxes can be smaller and

0:56:19all the stuff like that

0:56:20this is exactly the kind of area where

0:56:22Apple would absolutely go nuts and and

0:56:25sacrifice functionality for form and the

0:56:28the cost of that isn't so big it's way

0:56:32worse than laptops dress up like you

0:56:33you're kind of stuck with the keyboard

0:56:34that any laptop so that that I think is

0:56:37is the bigger area we have to watch out

0:56:39for and I do feel like even though i

0:56:41just got on praising apple for how often

0:56:42they're probably going to be with this I

0:56:44do feel like without that I'm kind of

0:56:46always on edge trying to like defend and

0:56:49hold onto things on on apple products

0:56:53that that work well or are economically

0:56:55friendly because i feel like i'm always

0:56:57battling Jony ive on like no you please

0:57:01stop making things worse or harder to

0:57:04use or more slippery or what you know

0:57:07with work the apple TV remote he can't

0:57:10even tell which way is up and your

0:57:11present things wrongly please like

0:57:13please Johnny stop stay away from my

0:57:15things you're standing off all the

0:57:17things that make them usable like and i

0:57:19am a little bit worried about that that

0:57:22angle of apple kind of taking over more

0:57:24than it should

0:57:25and.and that I think long-term both

0:57:28present and into the near future i think

0:57:30that is a major concern that many of us

0:57:32should have about Apple that real world

0:57:35usability and ergonomics it seemed to be

0:57:37a very low priority an ever-shrinking

0:57:39one that they're happy to borrow from to

0:57:43make gains in fitness and appearance or

0:57:45they just forgotten how to do it but

0:57:47like the keyboard i have the Apple

0:57:49extended alone keyboard i bought many of

0:57:51these I've gone through a couple of them

0:57:53actually breaking the keys but maybe

0:57:55doesn't speak to the reliability of the

0:57:56keyboard considering use the Apple

0:57:57extended to four years and the only way

0:57:59I broke it is because i drop my

0:58:00pocketknife off-the-shelf onto it and

0:58:02snapped off one of the function keys but

0:58:04i like the Apple extended aluminum

0:58:07keyboard in every aspect except for the

0:58:09fact that the stupid top row function

0:58:11keys is too close to the number keys and

0:58:14is not full size but every other aspect

0:58:16of it

0:58:17I like that it's thin and small and

0:58:19doesn't have any excess room it doesn't

0:58:21have any excess sort of trimming and

0:58:22stuff around it could be a little bit

0:58:24flattered as I still up a little bit but

0:58:25it is i think the a reasonable

0:58:29interpretation of the minimalist flat

0:58:30thing i like the fact that the keys have

0:58:32low effort because that helps my RSI

0:58:33then i can type on the underground

0:58:36keyboard so like if you if given the

0:58:37choice of you can have any keyboard in

0:58:39the world with your new mac this is

0:58:40still the one that I would pick because

0:58:41it's still basically my favorite

0:58:44keyboard out of all the ones that i've

0:58:45tried you know and I can't use my Apple

0:58:47extended to anymore but they went a

0:58:51little bit father the next keyboards

0:58:52like well the other one had a little bit

0:58:54of a rim around the edge so you could

0:58:55pick it up can we shave that off and the

0:58:57answer is yes we can and we put it

0:58:59directly down to the ground instead of

0:59:00having a lip where you can get your

0:59:01fingers underneath it well we can do

0:59:02that too

0:59:03and can you take off all those useful

0:59:04keys that people use sometimes yep they

0:59:06can do that too and I'm set but you

0:59:08still buy this one by the way like you

0:59:10can still buy the extended keyboard with

0:59:12your new computer it's just it's like

0:59:13you feel like you're getting the last

0:59:15generation think you can buy this shiny

0:59:16new keyboard that in case he has that he

0:59:18loved so much for these cookies switches

0:59:20that I i like to i tried the apple store

0:59:21i think they're great to or you can get

0:59:24this old keyboard that silly people use

0:59:26with the extra keys on

0:59:27yeah I one of the things i love about

0:59:29this keyboard is that it is so darn flat

0:59:32now I wouldn't say I is verse was

0:59:36seeking out a keyboard that's flat but

0:59:38now that it's in front

0:59:39of me I like that it's so flat because i

0:59:41feel like it works better for me or

0:59:44economically now maybe that's wrong

0:59:45maybe I'm maybe I'm crazy but it feels

0:59:48good to me and and i like that if i

0:59:51decide to take my ipad on a trip for

0:59:54example and I don't want to take my

0:59:56full-on 15-inch work computer

0:59:58I just throw this keep

0:59:58I just throw this keep

1:00:00bored in my bag and it's like it's not

1:00:01even there it's then it's light and it's

1:00:03my favorite keyboard i have ever used so

1:00:07I I know I talk about a constant but i

1:00:09cannot say enough good things about this

1:00:11keyboard is a great portable keyboard

1:00:13but you know and I'm not buying it for

1:00:15portable environments like this is the

1:00:16one is going to be attached and by the

1:00:17way i like when they're attached with

1:00:18the wire because again i have a place

1:00:20for the wire to go and I don't need to

1:00:22deal with bluetooth and I don't need to

1:00:23deal with batteries because it's never

1:00:24go anywhere it's always gonna be plugged

1:00:26into my computer it'll be fine

1:00:28hey I like I and the flatness again is

1:00:31not an innovation this particular

1:00:32keyboard because they like said that has

1:00:34been flat keyboard for apple and others

1:00:35forever and ever and ever

1:00:36without any feet without anything that

1:00:38it's nice and level it's the talking in

1:00:41of the edges and the bringing of the

1:00:42edges straight down to the table and and

1:00:44the trimming off of the keys and me not

1:00:47having a space between the numbers in

1:00:49the function keys because that would

1:00:50make the keyboard ever so slightly

1:00:51bigger it's like yeah alright if you're

1:00:53making a portable keyboard i see that

1:00:55trade-off you wanted to fit in your

1:00:56backpack every every millimeter counts

1:00:58it's gonna be on my desk every

1:00:59millimeter does not count in the same

1:01:01way and it just strikes me as a bad

1:01:02trade-off we're all sponsors night by

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1:03:08facebook.com slash ATP thanks a lot so

1:03:14you had written a post Marco about

1:03:16whether or not apples kind of allowing

1:03:18themselves to get left behind on this

1:03:20whole intelligent assistant thing can be

1:03:23talking with the microprocessor more

1:03:24instead I think we've been that's death

1:03:26this morning so I I don't necessarily

1:03:30need to get into the article too much

1:03:32but I thought it was reasonable

1:03:34I'm and then curiously rule day or two

1:03:37later there's a article on the

1:03:41information about Apple's opening up

1:03:44Siri and it's developing an echo rival

1:03:46interesting i mean this is this could be

1:03:51a coincidence

1:03:52it could be a controlled leaking

1:03:53response i have no idea it's probably a

1:03:55coincidence if I you know it can be

1:03:57realistic here but yeah I mean so I mean

1:04:01I don't want to go too far into the just

1:04:03a miracle was this is another one this

1:04:04one of these situations where like I

1:04:06write something critical critical about

1:04:07Apple my blog and just goes everywhere

1:04:10this time I don't feel bad about it this

1:04:13time they look with what the whole

1:04:15functional high ground thing I mean we

1:04:16felt bad about it because it you know AI

1:04:19I did not expect that all I've never

1:04:22seen that kind of response before so it

1:04:24was more it was more of a shock

1:04:26be the bigger

1:04:27the reason is that I just didn't write

1:04:28very well I didn't do a very good job of

1:04:30writing it and so I was kind of

1:04:32embarrassed that a lot of people

1:04:34including like people at Apple saw this

1:04:37and it wasn't very good work that's why

1:04:39I I kind of had a hard time back then

1:04:42with the with the high ground thing but

1:04:44this time I i wrote this piece knowing

1:04:47that there was a chance that it might

1:04:49spread although i didn't expect the

1:04:51spread of God at all but knowing there

1:04:54was a chance it might spread and I wrote

1:04:56it very carefully much more carefully

1:04:59than the high ground thing and I think

1:05:01what came out I I stand by the only

1:05:03thing that I regret it was the idea

1:05:05originally titled it avoiding

1:05:08blackberries fate that kind of implied

1:05:11that if apple doesn't make this big

1:05:12shift they will definitely fail the way

1:05:14blackberry did exactly and that was not

1:05:17my point that I was trying to make so so

1:05:20I retitled it about a day in something

1:05:23more more closer to what I actually

1:05:25meant the rest of it I i totally stand

1:05:28by and I don't regret it at all and so I

1:05:30feel pretty good about it and it did

1:05:32spread way further than I thought and

1:05:34many of the of the crappy rewrites of it

1:05:37have have been crappy Business Insider

1:05:40did what they always do and that's fine

1:05:42i said there was interested to the fish

1:05:44meat stick video and and you know it all

1:05:48the sensational news sites and all the

1:05:51crappy TV people and all the other

1:05:53crappy sites there they're gonna do with

1:05:56the what they're going to do and all

1:05:58like all i need is to be comfortable

1:06:00myself in standing by what i wrote me

1:06:04knowing myself that I did good work that

1:06:07I wrote it right that i express myself

1:06:08properly in the way I wanted to play

1:06:11myself you will not get that reference

1:06:12at all high and i'm happy with what i

1:06:16wrote and so what i wrote basically

1:06:18which I realize now i forgot to say at

1:06:20the beginning of this giant ramp sorry

1:06:22yeah I don't stand by this giant right

1:06:24now but so what you know whatever it was

1:06:28basically i think at you know Google and

1:06:31Amazon and Facebook and as many people

1:06:34pointed out which I didn't

1:06:36microsoft there all day making these

1:06:39huge developments in

1:06:40in a I like big data services so things

1:06:44like you know obviously in the old days

1:06:46things like search and maps and

1:06:48directory stuff and then now in recent

1:06:49recent times these like kinda like

1:06:52assistant virtual assistants chatbot

1:06:54things like Syrian Cortana and google

1:06:56now and stuff like that and that the

1:06:58Amazon echo and the google home people

1:07:00thing and whatever you know whatever

1:07:02Amazon Apple and Facebook everybody

1:07:04we're going to put next if the industry

1:07:07shifts to prioritize the functionality

1:07:10of these virtual assistants of this kind

1:07:13of big data AI problem as like the

1:07:17primary thing people care about are the

1:07:18primary functionality people want Apple

1:07:21is not in a good place for that you know

1:07:23right like it and I made the blackberry

1:07:25now he's like you know when when the

1:07:27iphone came out blackberry was on top of

1:07:30the world and they were doing really

1:07:32well the reason blackberry was so

1:07:35screwed is because when Apple came out

1:07:38they changed the game completely to to

1:07:41raise everyone's expectations of what

1:07:44phones could and should do in areas that

1:07:47RIM you know they didn't they could not

1:07:50catch up at that point if they wanted to

1:07:52because like Apple had moved the

1:07:54goalposts into this area where ok now to

1:07:56be competitive you need to have a

1:07:58desktop class operating system this is

1:08:00this incredibly complex manufacturing

1:08:03pipeline to make these incredibly

1:08:05precise high-quality devices this

1:08:07massive store ecosystem of these credit

1:08:09cards on file and all these developer

1:08:12tools and the ecosystem of computers

1:08:14around women's and like all this crazy

1:08:16stuff that like you know that the iphone

1:08:19was all the stuff that enabled the

1:08:21iphone with assets that Apple had been

1:08:24building up for like a decade before

1:08:25that no matter what blackberry did that

1:08:28point because they weren't building that

1:08:30kind of assets for a decade they were

1:08:32not going to catch up and in and the

1:08:34writing was on the wall soon as a phone

1:08:36as soon as Steve showed the iphone and

1:08:38in early early 07 before you can blow up

1:08:40with the appstore year later the

1:08:42writing's on the wall blackberry because

1:08:44they like the gap was too wide

1:08:46they would not be able to catch up to

1:08:47what the iphone had now redefined

1:08:49smartphones to be a look now and and you

1:08:52see these services that

1:08:54you know like Apple started at this

1:08:55whole thing with Cirie and yes I know

1:08:58Google is doing voices before that yes

1:09:00thank you but you know apple kind of

1:09:02started like that the virtual assistant

1:09:03revolution with Siri in 2011

1:09:07yes 11 it has it has progressed it has

1:09:10gotten better has gotten more advantages

1:09:11added more languages around the world is

1:09:13not an easy thing to do but ultimately I

1:09:16series still feels like a first

1:09:19generation version of this product while

1:09:22the competitors are all moving past that

1:09:25in in certain attributes so you look at

1:09:27like the Amazon echo and the echo only

1:09:30supports basically us english and only

1:09:33is useful to people in the US for most

1:09:35of its functionality but the

1:09:38functionality it does for those us

1:09:40english speakers it does that stuff

1:09:43better and more reliably and faster than

1:09:45Cirie does most of the time I look at

1:09:48you know google is going to be way

1:09:51better at international support way

1:09:53better different languages and Google's

1:09:56also doing a lot of this stuff better

1:09:57faster more reliably now with but

1:10:01they're good but they're google now

1:10:02stuff and all the other Android things I

1:10:04don't understand you know it's it's hard

1:10:07to look at this and to see ya if if if

1:10:10we all start using these virtual

1:10:11assistants as our primary interfaces

1:10:13like in two years or whatever like is

1:10:15Apple really gonna catch up to what

1:10:18Google is doing and what they will have

1:10:20in two years I don't think so because

1:10:23Apple Apple is not good at big data

1:10:27problems you know number one example

1:10:30this is the App Store search you could

1:10:33argue okay well maybe that's like one

1:10:35department that has these technical

1:10:36burdens or whatever else fine maybe

1:10:38that's true okay what about Cirie we're

1:10:40really matters a lot

1:10:42serie again it's it's kind of a genuine

1:10:44product and a gentoo world now and so it

1:10:48is possible we've we've heard lots of

1:10:50rumblings that apple will the Apple has

1:10:53made some some key acquisitions and

1:10:55investments over the last year too and

1:10:58that you know this wdc they're going to

1:11:00come out some major and it's going to be

1:11:01amazing and that might be true but just

1:11:04as i said earlier that Apple has an

1:11:06amazing track record

1:11:07of macbook pro updates Apple has a

1:11:10really terrible track record of big data

1:11:13AI problem updates

1:11:14youyou hero we've improved Syria we

1:11:16ordered we've now add these capabilities

1:11:18are now it's better now you can do this

1:11:20and and yet somehow it still reliable

1:11:23and consistent and sometimes not that

1:11:25smart

1:11:26Apple has the opposite problem here of

1:11:28any hype that's about like what Apple

1:11:31might do it everybody c22 to all of a

1:11:34sudden show us that they're like an

1:11:36amazing AI and big data company i don't

1:11:39believe that for a second I i would love

1:11:41to be proven wrong

1:11:42I really hope I'm proven wrong because I

1:11:44would so much rather have apple do well

1:11:47this stuff then have to switch on my

1:11:48garbage to Android but I don't have a

1:11:53lot of confidence in apple doing this

1:11:54stuff because their track record is not

1:11:56very strong so there was an interesting

1:11:58article that I saw today and i'm

1:12:01assuming was posted a notice yesterday

1:12:03on pixel envy and it was titled meet

1:12:07vocal like you look like he was a small

1:12:08camera based startup once in 2011 that

1:12:10specialized natural speaker recognition

1:12:12conversational interactions from The

1:12:15Times article this is x UK put published

1:12:19in june blah blah blah this is a quote

1:12:22from one of their one of their employees

1:12:24one of our key projects is to develop a

1:12:27car that can talk to you like in Knight

1:12:30Rider awesome so these people got

1:12:35acquired by apple in october and so

1:12:40there's a quote by someone who's been

1:12:43following this if Apple utilizes just a

1:12:45small subset of the technology developed

1:12:47by vocal likey we will see a far more

1:12:48advanced serie however I'm quite certain

1:12:50that the amazing work of Tom Gruber will

1:12:52also be utilized additionally the

1:12:53amazing technology from emollient

1:12:55perception and a number of other

1:12:56unannounced and future Apple

1:12:58acquisitions will also become a big part

1:13:01of apples AI future so perception

1:13:05apparently was actually percept do which

1:13:08was a photo classification startup which

1:13:12reminds me a lot of google photos which

1:13:14i've also been talking about constantly

1:13:16lately because it is amazing so you put

1:13:18all this together in this this is hardik

1:13:21which is very short ends with so who's

1:13:23excited for WWDC and I just think it's

1:13:26interesting you know they've been making

1:13:27a lot of acquisitions that are right in

1:13:29the right in this wheelhouse and we

1:13:31don't know what they've been up to but

1:13:33hopefully there's something there I hope

1:13:36that's right i mean again like I really

1:13:39hope I'm wrong on this

1:13:40I really hope apple just suddenly comes

1:13:42out and is really good at this stuff

1:13:45unfortunately I don't think it works

1:13:46that way i don't think this is the kind

1:13:48of thing you can do quickly one thing

1:13:50that's worth investigating

1:13:51is that they made acquisitions like this

1:13:54and like the Syrian people

1:13:55why did what is people not stick around

1:13:59you know like is there something about

1:14:00Apple's culture that order or their

1:14:03organizational structure or the

1:14:04departments that these people are hired

1:14:06to work in what like why don't they

1:14:09stick around

1:14:10why why does Apple need to go buying

1:14:12people in order to get this kind of

1:14:15talent in the company like is this a

1:14:16problem and are there other ways to fix

1:14:18this other problem to be solved first I

1:14:20don't know I don't know enough about how

1:14:22they work internally to really to have

1:14:25good insight into this but what I can

1:14:27see it from the outside and again like I

1:14:30mean every time anybody criticizes

1:14:32anything or have some kind of fear about

1:14:33apple or or tries to you know it was

1:14:36pessimistic about apple in the

1:14:38springtime everyone always says oh just

1:14:41wait i'll just wait you're gonna see

1:14:43this is it this is so stupid for you to

1:14:45be thinking about this now because just

1:14:46wait till you really see but you know

1:14:47what everybody see is not like Santa

1:14:49Claus like it doesn't it's not magic

1:14:52they're not going to solve every problem

1:14:53that everybody wanted to solve in one

1:14:55keynote and that's not realistic and

1:14:58that you know if you know people say

1:15:00that I like I am naive for thinking

1:15:03apples not working on this stuff I think

1:15:05thinking apples gonna magically solve

1:15:06everything in two weeks is naive i think

1:15:09we can look at what Apple services are

1:15:12today and what they have been these kind

1:15:15of things like Siri things like search

1:15:17and relevancy and predictive inputs for

1:15:20things like proactive on the phones and

1:15:22everything we see what an apple news

1:15:25like Apple music even like the

1:15:27recommendations like we see apples

1:15:30current capabilities and we know they're

1:15:33past capabilities

1:15:34in Big Data AI based web services and we

1:15:39see that there you know they can do it

1:15:42they can manage to to have a service out

1:15:45there and it can work most of the time

1:15:47and be up most of the time and be fast

1:15:50most of the time but that's that's like

1:15:54what was good enough

1:15:55five years ago 10 years ago and now that

1:15:58the companies who were really good at

1:16:00this stuff like Google they have moved

1:16:03to a different level of sophistication

1:16:05and performance and consistency and we

1:16:09haven't seen Apple match that level and

1:16:12took them a pretty long time to get to

1:16:13the last level so again look at the

1:16:17track record and I don't think it's

1:16:19unreasonable to be concerned about this

1:16:21David shop made a good point the chat

1:16:24you know started people like the yellow

1:16:26from all these acquisitions often aren't

1:16:29compatible with big companies or perhaps

1:16:31moving to the Cupertino area so you know

1:16:35maybe you're happy in Boston like this

1:16:37vocal like you company was you get

1:16:38swooped bought up by Apple you're

1:16:40expected to move and sometimes people

1:16:43just like the chase of a start-up

1:16:45sometimes they just don't like being

1:16:46always on vacation in california and it

1:16:49could be that it has nothing to do with

1:16:50apple at all on it's just the the kind

1:16:53of mindset or or or geographical

1:16:55situation from the from these companies

1:16:57that are being bought or it could be

1:16:59that there's the their new corporate

1:17:01overlords are killing them and they just

1:17:03can't handle it anymore

1:17:05now what do you think John upcoming

1:17:08episode of a another podcast on another

1:17:10network i had a long discussion about

1:17:13Apple not talking about you know agents

1:17:18or services or things like the Google

1:17:22home thing or the Amazon echo or Siri or

1:17:25court on or any of that stuff but about

1:17:28the more mundane aspects of cloud

1:17:31computing that it seems apple still has

1:17:33yet to master and in particular the

1:17:35simple idea of that you have an apple ID

1:17:39you were signed into the Apple ID in

1:17:41various applications on your phone that

1:17:43lets you do things like see your past

1:17:45purchases make new purchases

1:17:47a download your music before you know

1:17:50Apple music or iTunes Match see your

1:17:53photos all those things and the other

1:17:57mess the that the whole identity and

1:18:02login system is both on the web on your

1:18:04mac and but especially on your phone

1:18:06with the series of dialogues popping up

1:18:08and you entering your password having no

1:18:10idea why you're being prompted why

1:18:11you're being prompted again that is not

1:18:15just like level 1 or 1 point 0 or

1:18:17whatever that's like level 0 many many

1:18:21years ago that Apple still hasn't gotten

1:18:25right so I i continue to think I mean I

1:18:28think being strong for rages about apple

1:18:30and services that just sort of having

1:18:33something that looks on the outside just

1:18:35like everyone else's service like a

1:18:36we've done it

1:18:37we have a service for services company

1:18:39you have to keep evolving the basic

1:18:42parts of your system sort of in the same

1:18:44way that you know in the beginning

1:18:46google was the search box that you type

1:18:48terms into eventually there was

1:18:50something to sign into I forget about

1:18:51the first group things sign in to us

1:18:53maybe with gmail maybe something else

1:18:54eventually there was the concept of a

1:18:56google account that was a unifying all

1:18:58the various cool things together and the

1:19:01way Google authentication works and the

1:19:03way it's consistent referencing some

1:19:05tweets a great Hockenberry have been

1:19:06doing recently about the hold

1:19:08how many different ways can you log in

1:19:10with your Apple ID just on websites

1:19:12alone and his speculation that each of

1:19:13those talks to a different back-end and

1:19:15they're all sort of diverse and it's

1:19:16just it's just such a big mess compared

1:19:19to how Google's authentication and login

1:19:23system has evolved over the years to get

1:19:25sort of more sturdy more centralized

1:19:29more comforting more reassuring more

1:19:31reliable more predictable whereas apples

1:19:34has gotten the opposite direction it

1:19:35started off as small and humble and has

1:19:38become fragmented confusing and broken a

1:19:40lot of the time and inexplicable and

1:19:43like we're just talking about logging in

1:19:45we're not talking about understand my

1:19:47natural language query that i'm speaking

1:19:49into my phone which seems like it's a

1:19:50harder problem but if you neglect the

1:19:52fundamentals if you don't but you are

1:19:55talking about likely that why these

1:19:57people are staying in the company's top

1:19:58of this compound path shows as well like

1:20:00you know it could be the serial

1:20:01entrepreneurs and move on to other

1:20:02things but apples and organizations

1:20:05never seem to value the type of

1:20:07infrastructure work that is necessary to

1:20:09be a world-class services organization

1:20:11that you you can't have every project do

1:20:12everything on its own

1:20:14you have to sort of build up a common

1:20:15core infrastructure like it has like

1:20:17again this is a repeat of shows for many

1:20:18years ago but like like it has won the

1:20:20US side they had a car OS they develop

1:20:23they use it is the underpinning for the

1:20:25new mac operating system and eventually

1:20:26ended up being the underpinning for the

1:20:27phone operating system also for their

1:20:29watch operating system also for their

1:20:31h.264 hdmi adapter cable for the

1:20:34you know whatever happens I won't forget

1:20:36anyone as you like

1:20:38core technologies cocoa objective-c the

1:20:40compiler infrastructure their

1:20:41development tools like on on the client

1:20:44side of the non-service world they

1:20:46understand that it's stupid of every

1:20:47product to have its own little thing

1:20:48unify shareware possible like it just

1:20:53makes more sense and then on the service

1:20:55side they haven't quite gotten that down

1:20:56to the most basic thing you could

1:20:57possibly do with the service which is

1:20:59like login and have an application that

1:21:01knows that you're logged in it doesn't

1:21:02ask you to login repeatedly for no

1:21:03reason it doesn't lose your login

1:21:04credentials doesn't get confused that

1:21:06you don't have bad weather iCloud days

1:21:07where things don't seem to be working

1:21:10like I don't know how many more people

1:21:13get sick of hearing about this and their

1:21:14army listing off all the technologies

1:21:16that google has had developed over the

1:21:17years that are not for a specific

1:21:19project that are so that anybody google

1:21:22can make a scalable worldwide reliable

1:21:24redundant performing network service on

1:21:28top of these things that they built in

1:21:29this whole section of the company grew

1:21:30all they do is make that infrastructure

1:21:32better and better revised and replace

1:21:34this one of the better version and that

1:21:36and then just it it's a rising tide

1:21:37lifts all boats and apples just like

1:21:39you're checked out and to see with life

1:21:41preserver and have it sent to fend for

1:21:43yourself even the whole the Syrian

1:21:44people touting like they're moving to

1:21:45the app Apache was amazed us or

1:21:47something or whatever like I get the

1:21:49impression that teams like solving a

1:21:51problem for themselves like why is there

1:21:52not an apple wide solution to anybody

1:21:54who wants to write a service like this

1:21:55that is infrastructure for the whole

1:21:57company why is a product team doing it

1:21:59and it's just it seems to me they just

1:22:01don't get it and that to me explains

1:22:03partly why people who aren't serial

1:22:05entrepreneur but you really want to work

1:22:06in a company that values that type of

1:22:07work would definitely go to work for

1:22:09Google or even Amazon Facebook before

1:22:11they would go for Apple because those

1:22:12companies are so much more fun

1:22:14son valuing those server-side and

1:22:16operations in data center things worse

1:22:18apples like we kind of try to do it

1:22:20in-house and we kind of farm stuff out

1:22:21to as you're an Amazon but we're not

1:22:23really good that stuff we mostly make

1:22:25cool devices and that's that's just not

1:22:27going to cut a long term regardless of

1:22:28whether a is awesome anything I think

1:22:30it's not cutting it today and it's just

1:22:32not going to cut it even for basic stuff

1:22:33like photos which even if you set aside

1:22:35all the cool stuff the case he loves

1:22:37about google photos just the basics of

1:22:39doing photos right and having them in

1:22:41the cloud and everything took them so

1:22:42long to even get like sort of a passable

1:22:44level of having things working and so

1:22:47many different tries and I guess you

1:22:50know cloudkit is it is an attempt to do

1:22:52that type of infrastructure but it's

1:22:53like that they're just taking too long

1:22:55and moving too slowly everyone else's

1:22:56too far ahead of them again repeats of

1:22:58stuff I said a lot last week but it's

1:23:00it's on my mind a lot because i use a

1:23:02lot of apple products and every time i

1:23:04think about is that i'm starting to

1:23:06think about other aspects of my life

1:23:07that i use apple with that I would be

1:23:10better off using someone else with down

1:23:12to things like Google photos with the kc

1:23:14talking about that but you know all the

1:23:16way up to

1:23:16should i should i stop trying to use

1:23:18Syrians google now like I'm not going to

1:23:20go out and get an android phone at this

1:23:21point but i mean i already used gmail

1:23:24from a male I would never use apples

1:23:25mail system for a meal for a variety of

1:23:27reasons

1:23:29apples apples losing on all these fronts

1:23:31yeah google photos and I think I'm may

1:23:34briefly mentioned this last episode it's

1:23:36really rocked my world in a an

1:23:39uncomfortable way because it really

1:23:41makes me wonder like am I missing out on

1:23:44justgiving google everything about

1:23:47everything and having that kind of

1:23:49intelligent assistant thing form for me

1:23:52know it should I be looking at android

1:23:56issues that the gmail web you should use

1:23:58a gmail web interface because it knows

1:24:00when your flights are coming and it puts

1:24:01a little thing there and you can

1:24:02unsubscribe to list from like little

1:24:04buttons on your like its it does smart

1:24:06things with your email and gives you a

1:24:07little buttons without even having to go

1:24:08into them to do and i can put things on

1:24:11your calendar based on what's in there

1:24:12that may sound annoying and everything

1:24:14but it's it's actually really convenient

1:24:16google photos showing me like if you're

1:24:18willing to give Google in this case all

1:24:21of your pictures

1:24:23it's stunning how much intelligence they

1:24:25can provide you based on that you know

1:24:28if I want to search for a picture taken

1:24:32on a patio in 2012 i probably could

1:24:36search for that and it would probably

1:24:37find it pretty quickly

1:24:39it's unbelievable the things that can

1:24:42put together just in the metadata in my

1:24:43pictures and so it's not hard to

1:24:46extrapolate well if it's able to get all

1:24:47this from my pictures

1:24:49what could it do with my email and maybe

1:24:52with searches and things and so on the

1:24:54one side every ounce of me is like no

1:24:56that's a terrible idea you don't want

1:24:58google looking at all those things and

1:24:59then the opposite side of me thinks it

1:25:03is pretty damn convenient is it really

1:25:05that big a deal i mean i already have my

1:25:07email

1:25:07why not take the rest so it's very weird

1:25:10what what google photos is done because

1:25:12it's really made me start thinking about

1:25:14is it worth trading some of that privacy

1:25:16and some of that data to get something

1:25:18that is actually useful out of it we

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1:26:08I was gonna say one other thing that

1:26:10came up last week again i feel like i

1:26:12mentioned this to markets like I just

1:26:14feel that the crushing invisibility of

1:26:17podcast because i like we had this

1:26:18discussion last week's adp and nobody

1:26:21knew or cared like it has to be written

1:26:22down somewhere that people can link to

1:26:24before anyone cares about it but anyway

1:26:26something else that was discussed last

1:26:28week that i also saw it written down in

1:26:29places i was i was reminiscing about the

1:26:32old days when Apple and Google were

1:26:34friends and one apple introduced the

1:26:36iphone was like we made this amazing

1:26:38hardware and this amazing OS on this

1:26:40device that's like nothing you've ever

1:26:41seen before and it's powered by this

1:26:43google services and what a great

1:26:46partnership isn't that isn't that great

1:26:47we make the OS and hardware Apple to our

1:26:49google those services and together you

1:26:51have the best of all possible worlds

1:26:52because we are the best at making

1:26:54hardware we are the best at making

1:26:55native client-side applications google

1:26:57is the best that map's they're the best

1:26:59online services that the best search and

1:27:01you anywhere so integrated that we have

1:27:03you know our Maps application is

1:27:04essentially google map application

1:27:06google provides the data we wrote the

1:27:08application it's a marriage made in

1:27:09heaven and they got divorced and we were

1:27:11all sad and I don't know if that's what

1:27:15we're moving towards if like if Apple

1:27:16could never figure this stuff out and if

1:27:18google continues to not be able to make

1:27:21the the money and inroads that it wants

1:27:23to from Android instead the the money

1:27:26from android is going to other people

1:27:27like could we end up years and years

1:27:29down the road where they come back to

1:27:31the table and say you know what we

1:27:32should have never broken up I've learned

1:27:34that it's really hard to make money

1:27:35selling Hardware especially when you

1:27:36give away the OS four kind of free and

1:27:38in China they make android phones

1:27:41without using any of the google services

1:27:42and we kind of let this whole thing get

1:27:44away from us and apples like we tried to

1:27:45make services but it's really hard we're

1:27:46not good at it so why don't we just do

1:27:48what we reach good at and together we

1:27:51can make a great phone platform where

1:27:53Siri will be powered by google now and I

1:27:56message will be replaced with a decent

1:27:58service that doesn't send messages out

1:27:59of order has actual new features in it

1:28:00but it will be and then decrypted and

1:28:03you know like I i want the bullet point

1:28:06i want the best of both worlds and for a

1:28:08brief time it seemed like that's where

1:28:09we're going to get until both Android

1:28:11and Apple decided they were both going

1:28:13to do everything the other person does

1:28:14only better and thus far there their

1:28:18strengths remain the same go

1:28:20was getting better hardware apples

1:28:21getting better at services but if you

1:28:23were to let him down again you would say

1:28:24who's the best at making hardware and

1:28:26operating systems and all that stuff

1:28:27still Apple who's the best at making

1:28:29services still google so i don't know

1:28:31what the long-term solutions but as a

1:28:32customer and not someone who really

1:28:34cares about either one of those two

1:28:36companies ruling the entire world it

1:28:38would be nice if we could turn back the

1:28:40clock on that relationship

1:28:41well the good thing is like I i feel

1:28:44like you know if you look at the

1:28:45situation on the Mac you ignoring iOS

1:28:47for a second look at the mac and the mac

1:28:49you have pretty much what you want you

1:28:53have tons of people who use macs running

1:28:56Mac os10 with all that cool stuff under

1:28:59it

1:28:59maybe even use iCloud for certain things

1:29:01but who use chrome is the browser you

1:29:03use gmail for their mail maybe have

1:29:05google photos whatever uploader however

1:29:07that works installed you know like the

1:29:09on the Mac you have that you have that

1:29:11world of choice where you can totally be

1:29:14bothered to the Google ecosystem and

1:29:16still be using a mac with mac OS as your

1:29:18computer and have all the google stuff

1:29:20running there if you wanted they had

1:29:22cereal is tender when I could build your

1:29:23place with google now like that's the

1:29:25strategy tax type of thing where like

1:29:26you've all what if you want a boy system

1:29:28that helps you on your Mac you only get

1:29:30to choose the Apple and the only reason

1:29:31it's almost like it's an accident of

1:29:32history but that's not sure though

1:29:34because i'm on the Mac you have you have

1:29:36like the system ability for like there's

1:29:38nothing stopping google from running

1:29:40their own demon in the background it's

1:29:42losing on the microphone for its own

1:29:44commands like it is that is not possible

1:29:47it you know in the software environment

1:29:49there's going to be os-level integration

1:29:52though that series going to be favored

1:29:53with and I guess you could say like yeah

1:29:54I'm a call all is fair if you get admin

1:29:57access and write could bypass system

1:29:59integrity protection and hack the finder

1:30:01and get your things into the darker like

1:30:03whatever like Apple Apple always still

1:30:05has an advantage of things like

1:30:06spotlight and stuff like that like

1:30:07Google tried to google had like a

1:30:09spotlight competitor that was trying to

1:30:10yeah the public yeah you stuff like that

1:30:13it's really hard you know and that's

1:30:15something like almost an accident of

1:30:16history that the web browsers can

1:30:18because web browsers to plain old

1:30:19application and so there's no real

1:30:21barrier to entry there even you know

1:30:22especially since apple still has a way

1:30:24for you to pick your default browser on

1:30:25the mac

1:30:26like iOS but as you get more and more

1:30:27integrated into sort of system

1:30:29components it becomes harder for any

1:30:31third party party no matter how good

1:30:32they are to compete with the built-in

1:30:33one not only because it's built in but

1:30:36also because like they're deep books

1:30:38that you can't get a tour you can only

1:30:40get out doing nasty hacks that you have

1:30:42to maintain and so in practice it's

1:30:44really hard you know how bad spotlight

1:30:46is and how good Google's thing could

1:30:47have been it's been really hard to for

1:30:50them to make a better spot light and I

1:30:51imagine Siri will be similar it will be

1:30:53harder for them to integrate their voice

1:30:56other than iOS forget it like you have a

1:30:57choice of so many things you can't

1:30:59change the default anything and it's

1:31:01it's just frustrating but so but I think

1:31:03like on the mac i think the the the gap

1:31:06therebetween what we have possible now

1:31:09and the world you you imagine is like

1:31:12the ideal world here that gap is pretty

1:31:14small i I think we're pretty sure or

1:31:16almost they were pretty much there now

1:31:18we're like if google wants to make all

1:31:20their stuff for for mac OS 10 and

1:31:22integrate their own alternatives in as

1:31:24many ways as they possibly can

1:31:25there are lots of ways to do that right

1:31:27now and that's that's pretty much

1:31:28possible now and in many ways it's

1:31:30already done things like chrome and

1:31:32gmail is like that's pretty much done

1:31:34I'm worried about though I'm worried

1:31:36about it actually getting worse as the

1:31:37next topic we probably won't have time

1:31:38to get to in this show but the next

1:31:39topic of maybe we get to next week is

1:31:41about chromebooks outselling max in

1:31:42school

1:31:43the problem is the google because you

1:31:45know Apple Google both want to do

1:31:46everything that everybody does google

1:31:47like we should sell laptops and we

1:31:49should have you know like it's like we

1:31:51don't have a desktop OS what should we

1:31:52do well we make chrome OS working for

1:31:55android on Chromebooks like we have an

1:31:57OS it's not really a desktop OS but

1:31:59maybe like that everyone wants to be in

1:32:01everything it's it's almost kind of like

1:32:02but only by the good graces of google

1:32:04google is so nice to you know not

1:32:06they're doing it you know the goodness

1:32:08of their heart they want her information

1:32:09in our eyeballs and everything else

1:32:11whatever but they make their

1:32:12applications for iOS and for the mac

1:32:15apple is not making facetime for android

1:32:18you know like it's test on open

1:32:20standards that ever you know you can't

1:32:22go back to that well like Apple keeps

1:32:23itself to its it's tough to its own

1:32:25platform when it's feasible where is

1:32:27google it's more important to get it's

1:32:28thing everywhere so we are blessed with

1:32:30these gifts from google but like oh I

1:32:34can use you know that there's a native

1:32:36or non-native the gmail application for

1:32:38iOS

1:32:38and there's Google now and there's

1:32:40google maps for iOS even though apple

1:32:42took the mapping back into their own

1:32:43native thing and I worry that someday

1:32:45like the cold war will get even colder

1:32:47and Google will start behaving even more

1:32:50like Apple and will be even more solid

1:32:51and then the mac will be like this even

1:32:54the things we enjoy now will be pulled

1:32:56away for me and I feel like with system

1:32:57integrity protection and other things

1:32:59it's getting farther and farther away

1:33:01from the world where anybody could

1:33:02compete with built-in apple stuff all

1:33:04you can really compete with his apple

1:33:05applications

1:33:06yeah but i feel like you know Google and

1:33:09Apple are both under different

1:33:11leadership then where they were when

1:33:13this feud really was at its hottest and

1:33:17you know I think you can look at both

1:33:19companies now and see that they're

1:33:21they're very pragmatic in a lot of the

1:33:23decisions and you know I think I don't

1:33:26think you're ever gonna see some kind of

1:33:28grand reunification where you know they

1:33:31were like Tim comes out as I go now

1:33:32we're apart we've partnered with google

1:33:34to replace like you never going to see

1:33:36that but i think what you will see is

1:33:38apple kind of like yielding certain

1:33:40ground to enable people to do that kind

1:33:43of thing if they want to

1:33:44so you know i'm not saying they're going

1:33:46to suddenly have everything this fall

1:33:49we're like oh you can set your default

1:33:50mail to gmail you can set your default

1:33:52browser chronic I expect we probably

1:33:55will get to that type of things slowly

1:33:58over time as the market kind of direct

1:34:01Apple to do that like you know it that

1:34:03there's enough demand now like apple now

1:34:06offers their own versions of all these

1:34:08different services google is offering

1:34:10their versions of all these different OS

1:34:11and hardware and stuff so you're right

1:34:13there's a lot of duplication here and

1:34:15that's great because the people who

1:34:16really love google can go buy a

1:34:18Chromebook or whatever an android phone

1:34:20and get all their Google stuff people

1:34:21who really love apple can go buy apple

1:34:24hardware an apple software on all Apple

1:34:25services most people are somewhere in

1:34:28the middle

1:34:28most people love some stuff from

1:34:30multiple companies and aren't purest of

1:34:32either company or any company so the

1:34:35more that both companies do to address

1:34:38that giant middleware most of the

1:34:41customers are the more they both really

1:34:44benefit and both companies leadership or

1:34:46smart enough to know that and they're

1:34:48also i think realizing like you know it

1:34:50in the same way like when Steve came

1:34:52back and

1:34:52that big speech with the book bill gates

1:34:54on the big screen and within said like

1:34:56you know for Apple to win microsoft

1:34:58doesn't have to lose or vice versa

1:35:00whatever that was I think you know tim

1:35:02cook knows that even though it's pretty

1:35:05clear that like he obviously think a lot

1:35:08of what Google does distasteful and he's

1:35:10right and Google obviously a lot of what

1:35:12Apple does is you know arrogant and

1:35:14technically inferior and they're right

1:35:16but the reality is i think both

1:35:18companies in google knows that as a

1:35:20services company

1:35:21it has to be everywhere it has to be

1:35:23where the people are and a lot of people

1:35:24are an apple stuff and Apple knows that

1:35:27a lot of its customers who buy its

1:35:29devices really want to use some google

1:35:32stuff on them so they're both gonna you

1:35:34know address that in there they're not

1:35:35going to let that demand go totally

1:35:37unanswered in in the name of like spite

1:35:41overrate you know ten-year-old battle

1:35:43that neither company's CEO was really

1:35:46part of but think of the things that's

1:35:49motivating seems to be ordering Apple

1:35:50now 22 bestow its gifts unto other

1:35:54platforms is the things that are

1:35:56services like Apple music visit Apple

1:35:57music for android right yeah I'm not

1:36:00imagining that is there so because Apple

1:36:02music is a service once for products

1:36:05that are like services you end up using

1:36:07the google rationale well it's a service

1:36:10and the most important thing is that we

1:36:11have a lot of customers so it has to be

1:36:13everywhere right same thing that

1:36:14motivated itunes for windows you know

1:36:16like it when you're in the service

1:36:19mindset for your service products the

1:36:22calculus is different and you end up

1:36:23putting it everywhere

1:36:24ah but the other calculus when it is

1:36:27like this is the reason someone would

1:36:29buy a mac we know or this is the reason

1:36:31to buy a phone we use facetime whatever

1:36:33when it's when it's more link to

1:36:34hardware software proprietary platform

1:36:37for it's not a service where your main

1:36:39goal isn't to get everyone in the world

1:36:40using it you want people to buy iphones

1:36:42you want people to buy max when it's

1:36:44like your hardware business then the

1:36:46opposite motivation comes in so Apple is

1:36:48getting a little bit of the services

1:36:49motivation saying if we have services

1:36:51products we need to have them more than

1:36:53just on our platforms if you want a

1:36:55large customer base and again Google

1:36:57because they wanted to everything Apple

1:36:58does is starting to make hardware

1:36:59products and I wonder if they say well

1:37:01normally there

1:37:02our culture and our motivation that we

1:37:04everything we do is go let's get as many

1:37:05users as possible because their data is

1:37:07the most important thing to us and we

1:37:08can sell based on them blah blah but

1:37:10when we do these hardware products if we

1:37:13actually want to if we can overcome our

1:37:15own company culture and motivate these

1:37:17hardware products like to say you have

1:37:19to make a great product that people want

1:37:20to buy and we don't want to sell a lot

1:37:22of them you have to think in a different

1:37:23mindset thus far google has not been

1:37:25able to get into that mindset which is

1:37:27why most of their hardware has not sold

1:37:28like hotcakes right and thus far mostly

1:37:31apples not been able to get into the

1:37:32right mindset to be really successful

1:37:33services either so as Apple learns

1:37:38google continues learn to it will mean

1:37:40that they will start doing some of the

1:37:41things that I don't like about Apple not

1:37:43sharing their stuff so i'm not sure the

1:37:44net sharing between them will be better

1:37:46i think the only thing that is going to

1:37:48make the net sharing between them

1:37:50improve is for the power balance to

1:37:52shift kind of the same way that the net

1:37:55sharing between Apple and Microsoft

1:37:56really started to move once the parents

1:37:58power balance shifted one sample was

1:38:00almost going out of business Microsoft's

1:38:02like all Apple I remember them all right

1:38:04we'll make office for you here's a

1:38:06hundred million dollars will sell shares

1:38:08too early and regret it but I think

1:38:12someone did the math of what that would

1:38:13be worth of they kept it anyway

1:38:15yeah if the power bounces way off

1:38:17something you can come to the table

1:38:19right when I was like the cold war where

1:38:21you know everyone wants to show strength

1:38:23everyone to do anything and it's not a

1:38:26particularly comfortable time but yeah

1:38:28you're right in the meantime i will

1:38:29continue to use chrome and safari and

1:38:31the gmail and it in the web interface

1:38:34what else do i use from Google Google

1:38:36Drive Google Docs we're using it right

1:38:38now for the shots the mark is not

1:38:40looking at the google search engine it

1:38:43yeah google and apple search engine

1:38:45obviously it its a mix but on iOS

1:38:48definitely it's much harder to achieve

1:38:49that makes and I worry about the mix and

1:38:51look forward what i'm saying is i look

1:38:52forward to the time that this balance

1:38:53shifts in some way and the companies can

1:38:56go back can get out from the sort of

1:38:57megalomaniacal mindset that the old

1:39:02microsoft mindset that not only can we

1:39:04do everything because we are the mighty

1:39:06insert company name we should do

1:39:08everything and we're gonna be awesome at

1:39:10it and that's a bad attitude for any

1:39:11company Google Apple or anything and it

1:39:13mostly leads to bad things but the

1:39:17iphone is a rising tide lifts the hell a

1:39:19lot of boats and so far apples not

1:39:21feeling this thing from that thanks lat

1:39:2443 sponsors this week fracture

1:39:26freshbooks and hover we will see you

1:39:28next week

1:39:30now the show is over they didn't even

1:39:34mean to begin as it was accidental

1:39:38it was accidental

1:39:41John's research Marco and Casey would

1:39:45let him because it was accidentally was

1:39:50accidental

1:39:51you can find the show know the day EP

1:39:55die and if your twitter follow them

1:40:03yes eyl ISS so that's Casey list and a

1:40:08co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC at

1:40:16Syracuse

1:40:29and I feel like Casey and I feel like I

1:40:33have to like save you in some way from

1:40:36like tripping and falling into android

1:40:38like in the same way like member really

1:40:40good about two years ago you started

1:40:42talking about not wanting a BMW but

1:40:46instead wanting one of those like weird

1:40:47sporty new Cadillac's that's like all

1:40:49straight lines and angles and I like

1:40:53look that you're like I was like just

1:40:54know that I have to save you back away

1:40:56from this clip I'm like I'm like holding

1:40:58back your shirt like you know i'm not

1:40:59going over this cliff like you're not to

1:41:02trust me I you will thank me later

1:41:03you're not doing this right

1:41:05I feel like this might be that moment

1:41:06for tripping and falling into the the

1:41:09google pit of insanity here I I know

1:41:12you're being silly but only a little bit

1:41:14i didn't and I'm i'm not actually

1:41:18looking to buy an android phone or

1:41:19anything but it is striking to me how me

1:41:25but I guess I could say forced i mean i

1:41:28don't have to be a google photos user

1:41:31but the other picture life is is a

1:41:33dumpster fire and ever and ever picks is

1:41:35dead and so and i don't particularly

1:41:38care for flickr just me you my love it

1:41:40that's fine but I backed into google

1:41:43photos and then I started to just really

1:41:46love what it was providing and its

1:41:48really made me like i said earlier kind

1:41:50of question am i holding onto Apple

1:41:54being the best thing ever because it's

1:41:55just what I'm used to and I don't think

1:41:57so and I think that if i if i were to go

1:41:59android it would be death by a thousand

1:42:02very very deep and very wide papercut

1:42:04spite but nevertheless it's made me

1:42:06think and then there was that great

1:42:07episode of connected this week we're

1:42:10federico got himself an android phone

1:42:13and had positive things to say and I

1:42:15think his experience it was probably

1:42:20what I mine would be in that you know

1:42:23there's a lot here to like but it's not

1:42:26enough to sway me but man it's it's

1:42:30stunned me how much I've just like

1:42:33subconsciously been thinking man this is

1:42:36really convenient having them in all of

1:42:38giving them as photos now granted it's

1:42:40tied to my ID that probably has

1:42:42everything about

1:42:42for done on the internet ever but all of

1:42:45knowingly giving them as my photos and

1:42:47the stuff that they can put together is

1:42:49just stunning

1:42:50no I mean like I think like what you're

1:42:54doing now which is like using Apple

1:42:57hardware and os is but using selectively

1:42:59the google things that you like best on

1:43:01them that is generally like the the best

1:43:05combo for most people I think yeah i

1:43:06agree but even with photos though don't

1:43:09you feel the pain of iOS integration

1:43:10like the one of the main reasons i'm

1:43:12sticking with Apple photos is well part

1:43:14of it is I'm actually hoping they're

1:43:15gonna get on the ball and start

1:43:17integrating some of these features like

1:43:18the rumors say but the other thing is

1:43:19like it's integrated with your phone and

1:43:21the native photos application has the

1:43:22stuff and I don't maybe I think there's

1:43:24a bigger barrier than there really is to

1:43:25like what if I just don't use the Apple

1:43:28photos application does the photo

1:43:30picture only show you only Apple photos

1:43:32from the thing or did good

1:43:33yes the the way I think the problem is

1:43:36my mental model for a it for better or

1:43:38worse is that the pictures that are on

1:43:41my phone in like the photos stock photos

1:43:45app those are the pictures that were

1:43:47generated on that phone or have been

1:43:50beamed to that phone via airdrop or

1:43:52Wi-Fi from the big camera something like

1:43:54that but it's not all your photos

1:43:55correct when to me something else

1:43:59outside of the stock photos app is all

1:44:02of my photos and it was picture life and

1:44:05now it's google photos now I'm not

1:44:06saying that's right i'm not saying that

1:44:07that's how you would treat it but that's

1:44:09the way I like to treat it but do you

1:44:10have sheriff's I guess you have with the

1:44:12extension that you have a share sheet

1:44:13like say you say you want to tweet

1:44:15something you want to tweet and it's a

1:44:16picture from like three years ago that's

1:44:17in you that's in your all my photos

1:44:19collection when you tap the little

1:44:20camera icon in your twitter application

1:44:23of choice doesn't bring up a photo

1:44:25picture and you have the option to

1:44:26picking from your google photos that you

1:44:27only get to pick from the phone things i

1:44:29think only the phone things but my

1:44:31workflow yes so on tweet but i can only

1:44:34choose from library but my workflow

1:44:38would have been if i were to do

1:44:40something like that guy in the photo

1:44:42again find the photo on google photos

1:44:43download it onto my phone and then take

1:44:47it from there and

1:44:48I mean I wanted to work both ways like I

1:44:49said it's rather a real or perceived

1:44:51barrier to like the fact that Apple's

1:44:54photos are integrated into iOS in the

1:44:57most convenient possible way and all

1:44:59third-party things are slightly less

1:45:01convenient or they have to think about

1:45:03more or whatever and that's another area

1:45:04where eventually like Marco said it

1:45:05could be that you know the sort of the

1:45:07date on which comes in and then they

1:45:09start allowing you to pick

1:45:11hey what do you use for your photos and

1:45:13just has to be conformed to this

1:45:14particular you know interface or API or

1:45:16whatever and then when you say pick

1:45:19photos we won't just show you your

1:45:21collection of quote-unquote Apple photo

1:45:22same thing with contact same thing with

1:45:24everything else that context is

1:45:25different because Apple actually gives

1:45:26you access to the underlying data from

1:45:27any application so you can use different

1:45:29calendars stuff anyway that what I'm

1:45:31saying is i'm sticking with the Apple

1:45:33apps and a lot a lot of cases not

1:45:35because i think that the best because i

1:45:36would i would like to try google photos

1:45:38but I know that I can't try google

1:45:39photos without having a split brain

1:45:41situation where now i have two

1:45:42collections of photos to manage i'm not

1:45:44going to do that so i just have the one

1:45:45collection and you know I maybe i would

1:45:49upload them as I can ever done backup if

1:45:51I'm are i think i'm still paying for

1:45:52like Tara by the google storage for

1:45:54various reasons but yeah I'm I it's a

1:45:57barrier it's a barrier to me tryin what

1:45:59is almost certainly a product that i

1:46:01would enjoy more than what i'm using and

1:46:03also have to say a lack of a really cool

1:46:05native application like photos is a

1:46:06barrier and the photos drives me up a

1:46:08wall but there's no equivalent to that

1:46:10fool photos as far as I'm aware when we

1:46:12will go down well what are you looking

1:46:14for because there's absolutely a native

1:46:16app but but it may not do the sorts of

1:46:18things that you wanted to I mean like

1:46:19like like the photos application like

1:46:22with all the adjustments and all the

1:46:23like it's not their fancy but it's it's

1:46:25a native application rather than a weird

1:46:26web interface and it has all sorts of

1:46:27you know almost reading and printing you

1:46:31know booklets and doing to all the stuff

1:46:33that like iphoto use doing that photo is

1:46:35still sort of does

1:46:36yes so it does a lot but not all of that

1:46:38so it is native and I'm sure knowing

1:46:41that's given that it's google i'm sure

1:46:42there's web views that I'm just not

1:46:44realizing but it doesn't feel like

1:46:46they're webviews it feels

1:46:47honest-to-goodness native you can do

1:46:50some modifications but here again that's

1:46:53not something I typically do on my phone

1:46:55even the Photos app so that that's not

1:46:59an itch I need to scratch

1:47:00I'm talking about them

1:47:01where the mac app not that I was that oh

1:47:03I'm sorry

1:47:04yeah on the on the desktop you're

1:47:06absolutely right it's all web

1:47:08yeah I thought you were talking about

1:47:09iOS know that that's what we're doing

1:47:11the photos we looking on the five-game a

1:47:12kilo of photos and that's how I sort

1:47:14through them to pick up the phone i got

1:47:15my gosh calendar and arranging things

1:47:17and and I guess also photostream and

1:47:19this is sort of a family inertia and

1:47:20that we finally got everything set up on

1:47:22photostream so now when we you know post

1:47:24picture everyone can see it and it's so

1:47:25much better than every other system

1:47:27we've tried pretty recently that to get

1:47:28pictures of my grandkids to grandparents

1:47:30this is the best system because we just

1:47:33do a thing and that thing pops up and

1:47:35they see the thing and so much easier

1:47:37than sending URLs or knowing when they

1:47:39need to go there whatever like and again

1:47:42if we just got them onto the google

1:47:43system that can do the same thing but

1:47:44it's like well everyone's always already

1:47:45set up with their iOS devices that like

1:47:47its platform inertia and lock in keeping

1:47:49me away from superior applications

1:47:51things are working sort of as designed

1:47:53for Apple but i'm a little bitter about

1:47:55it

1:47:56yeah i think the problem is there

1:47:58shouldn't be a problem but the

1:48:00difference between you and I is a couple

1:48:02of things one idea the file system on my

1:48:06actually it's sitting on the synology

1:48:08but effectively on the imac IV the file

1:48:10system is the canonical representation

1:48:11of my photos i don't use photos app on

1:48:14the desktop i actually really don't like

1:48:17it very much at all

1:48:18I and so to me google photos is just a

1:48:22portable search tool and view into that

1:48:27repository and that works really well

1:48:30for me and I've always treated my true

1:48:34my one true repository as segregated

1:48:37like i was saying earlier from the from

1:48:38the phone and that just works really

1:48:41well for me

1:48:42additionally you do a lot more stuff

1:48:44with your photos than I tend to I'll

1:48:46share them on social media I have a

1:48:48shared album for pictures that we like

1:48:50Declan that we've shared with friends

1:48:52and family like you guys but I don't do

1:48:55a whole lot of heavy photo editing i

1:48:57think was Marco or somebody taught me

1:48:59how to do a white balance correction for

1:49:01when I take pictures at night that's

1:49:02like a big new advancement I think I

1:49:04didn't teach you i just said you should

1:49:06look into this it makes a big difference

1:49:07and it's not that hard

1:49:09yeah okay that's what that was like my

1:49:11first are taking decent photos or photos

1:49:14with decent camera

1:49:14is like in 2006-2007 like I look back on

1:49:18those photos and they're all orange

1:49:19because i didn't know that dick white

1:49:21balance and I eventually learned white

1:49:24balance out that makes a huge difference

1:49:26and I didn't know that for a very long

1:49:28time so it's best to try to like jump

1:49:30you up the queue of learning how to do

1:49:32photos click here which I appreciate it

1:49:34three years

1:49:35just look at what exactly's that it did

1:49:38absolutely did but yeah but the right

1:49:40bring that up to say that that's about

1:49:41as heavy and edit as i usually get we

1:49:44don't do the yearly calendar thing we

1:49:46probably shouldn't i'm jealous of your

1:49:47girlie calendars or like the underscores

1:49:49were showing us we're up there this past

1:49:51weekend they do i'm merely like photo

1:49:54books and we should do that but host

1:49:56asking a was asking David and Lauren you

1:50:00know how long does that take you and

1:50:01they said well about a week week and a

1:50:03half every single year and I don't know

1:50:06how they find the time for it but i wish

1:50:08i had it so i guess they make the time

1:50:10for it but I'm I i don't use photos

1:50:14heavily I find that for me photos are

1:50:17just I want to have them to help jog my

1:50:20memory

1:50:21I want to be able to get to a relatively

1:50:23arbitrary photo very quickly so all that

1:50:26restaurant we went to that when we were

1:50:27going when we are on our trip to Paris

1:50:29I'd like a picture that well I can just

1:50:31type in paris in google photos and maybe

1:50:34you can do this in regular photos to is

1:50:35in fact I think you can but i could type

1:50:37in paris in google photos all only with

1:50:40geo tags and only if you actually happen

1:50:42to be in Paris like these are all like

1:50:45rap wants to catch up and if they're

1:50:46actually you know always remember the

1:50:47true they should show hey the next

1:50:49version of photos knows what the hell's

1:50:51in your picture and can do something and

1:50:52then it's just a competition of who does

1:50:53it better

1:50:54spoiler alert it's gonna be google but

1:50:55at least just having that feature is

1:50:57better than not having it at all right

1:50:59so here's a great example so earlier

1:51:02today I forget why but I wanted to see

1:51:04if I had a picture of the Rotunda uva so

1:51:07uva is is the universal Virginia it's

1:51:10where Aaron went to school it's about an

1:51:12hour west of where we live and they're

1:51:15like most famous building is a building

1:51:18called the Rotunda which is modeled

1:51:20after the him beyond or Parthenon i

1:51:24always get it wrong i'm so sorry please

1:51:25don't email Pentagon's you model it

1:51:27the Pentagon totally it's modeled after

1:51:29one of those so it's like this old old

1:51:31your kind of Greek looking structure

1:51:33with the columns and all that anyway so

1:51:36i did a search for rotunda and i have

1:51:38not knowingly tag these pictures in any

1:51:42way it doesn't out nevermind to test a

1:51:45pretty returned on this picture just

1:51:46getting but this but this is a terrible

1:51:49example on but so the file name in this

1:51:52case did tag it and my bad but i have

1:51:55seen other situations just let's pretend

1:51:58that's not the case

1:51:59I've seen other situations when I

1:52:01haven't given google any information

1:52:04about the photo but it has figured out

1:52:07oh this is the Rotunda well as an

1:52:10example so they're the pictures of the

1:52:12Pantheon Parthenon always get it wrong

1:52:13we were there in in Italy I believe God

1:52:17federal Federico's gonna be so mad

1:52:19anyway point is we were at the

1:52:20inspiration for the Rotunda and i just

1:52:22did a search in google photos for honda

1:52:23and one of the things that comes up our

1:52:26pictures of this old old old ancient

1:52:28building which looks just like the uva

1:52:30rotunda

1:52:31so Google has said presumably hey what

1:52:34is the ETA return to look like oh this

1:52:37looks like that

1:52:38let's bubble these up as well and you

1:52:40could take this either way right you

1:52:41could either say well this is a this is

1:52:43a false positive or you could take that

1:52:45as well this is an ancillary picture

1:52:47that you may have wanted someone to give

1:52:48it to you anyway and just that machine

1:52:50learning which we heard a thousand times

1:52:52during google i/o it really does

1:52:54freaking work and in the fact that i can

1:52:56just search the word rotondo and get not

1:52:59only pictures that we've taken in front

1:53:00of the return of the pictures we've

1:53:01taken from this or this other building

1:53:04I just find that to be amazing and it

1:53:06makes it so so convenient that rather

1:53:11than having to think to myself all right

1:53:13when we in Paris or when were we in Rome

1:53:16or what have you had that was 2012 shoot

1:53:19what month was it i think was like no it

1:53:21was August all right now I got to go

1:53:22through every picture in August to

1:53:25figure out where where was that where

1:53:27when it was that we went to Rome and now

1:53:28i gotta search for ok which day was it

1:53:30in this week that we were there now

1:53:32granted another approach could be what I

1:53:34suspect you do John which is to catalog

1:53:36in in tag and do a lot of this stuff by

1:53:39hand but I don't have the patience for

1:53:41and so i love that that google photos

1:53:42can just figure it out for me that's why

1:53:45I always what I don't want to do all

1:53:46that work i would like a reliable way to

1:53:48do it like everyone picasa came out with

1:53:49a face detection like oh that's awesome

1:53:51but all they don't have an apple store i

1:53:53wish they did an apple came out with the

1:53:55features like yeah finally you caught up

1:53:56and then what face detection brought was

1:53:58a fan spinning cpu grinding featured

1:54:02iphoto that nevertheless failed to

1:54:04accomplish the task that I wanted for

1:54:06which is basically find me all the

1:54:08pictures of a particular person because

1:54:10you have to Train it and it would miss a

1:54:12bunch and bottom line is my manual

1:54:14tagging of who's in that picture was

1:54:17better and faster and did not destroy my

1:54:20computer during the process so it's like

1:54:22you brought the feature but your

1:54:24implementation is bad enough that manual

1:54:25tagging still wins

1:54:27whereas with the google thing there's no

1:54:29way I'm going to take everything like

1:54:30you know I'm gonna take all the hugs and

1:54:33all likely the nighttime things and put

1:54:36geotags I'm I you know pictures that

1:54:38don't have tags because I from cameras

1:54:40it said they don't have a gps and not

1:54:42going to do that if Google can do it

1:54:43it's not as if it's competing with a

1:54:45better manual tagging alternative is

1:54:46competing with there's no way in hell

1:54:48you could do this manually and so you're

1:54:51not comparing it to essentially you know

1:54:5299 percent accuracy you comparing it to

1:54:54nothing you got nothing that when i'm

1:54:56looking for pictures like you know

1:54:58where's that picture of my television so

1:55:01I could see like what arrangement of AV

1:55:03equipment i had three years ago I just

1:55:06have to scroll I said the scroll with my

1:55:08balls and like look at the date and see

1:55:10like the houses around last year and

1:55:11then just sort of scroll through the

1:55:13pictures and look for something like a

1:55:14TV sometimes you miss it if I could just

1:55:16talk TV and you know TV 2013 google

1:55:21photos would do it

1:55:23photos on a Mac will not yeah i just

1:55:26typed television 2013 and i'm looking at

1:55:29pictures I took of RTV amount of the

1:55:31course of course you are anyway I'm i

1:55:33like face recognition i fully expect

1:55:36apple to add this feature two photos I

1:55:39just hope they do better this time than

1:55:41last time

1:55:42well this whole thing is how does how

1:55:43does photos get better at figuring out

1:55:47what's in the photo because it does it

1:55:50can't really aggregate what it learns

1:55:52over good Jillian's of photos

1:55:54it can just do a best guess based on

1:55:56what's been programmed into the photos

1:55:58and there has to be a server-side

1:55:59component there as well right and then

1:56:01it at that point how are they any better

1:56:03than google and if you put on your

1:56:05tinfoil hat i don't but i don't consider

1:56:08it bad or like a good apples got all my

1:56:10photos anyway where do you think they're

1:56:11all stored that current Apple servers i

1:56:13don't i assume they're not even

1:56:14encrypted they're just like I'm i'm

1:56:16signing up to say here Apple take my

1:56:18photos and start the minor cloud

1:56:19infrastructure now Apple you have all my

1:56:21photos and I'm trusting you won't do

1:56:22anything to various with them right

1:56:24that's it that's the deal so I that's

1:56:25not hang up for me at all like oh I

1:56:27don't want to get my photos of google

1:56:29know i'll give them to google that the

1:56:30reasons i don't have everything I just

1:56:32said like iOS integration and sharing

1:56:34photos with family and all this stuff

1:56:35yes like here's a great example so i

1:56:38typed in Declan listened in I've told

1:56:40google you know it it discovered that

1:56:42there is someone who looks like this in

1:56:44a lot of pictures and I told told google

1:56:46ok thats Declan and so I typed in

1:56:49decklist comma beach common 2015 and it

1:56:52came up with our beach trip from last

1:56:54year but interestingly also came up with

1:56:56a shot of Declan sitting at a pumpkin

1:56:59patch where the ground was

1:57:01indistinguishable from sand at a glance

1:57:04so it has looked at this picture and

1:57:07said hmm that looks to me to be a beach

1:57:09that looks to me like that's Declan in

1:57:11there and it is one of the results that

1:57:13came back and here again like I said

1:57:14earlier you could treat that as a false

1:57:16positive but I think it's great because

1:57:18it shows that there is some amount of

1:57:21like reasoning going into tagging that

1:57:24picture as being at the beach and it's

1:57:28good stuff so it makes you wonder you

1:57:29know hey would it be cool if it just

1:57:31search my email and said hey you know

1:57:33you better leave now for that flight

1:57:35that's coming up and to be fair what is

1:57:37I forget what they call it but apples

1:57:38doing that well right yeah so you know

1:57:41it like when i get in the car on the way

1:57:43home

1:57:44it'll say it sees the phone will see

1:57:47that I've connected to a car bluetooth

1:57:49and it'll say well about this time he

1:57:51tends to be heading to my home address

1:57:53and it will tell me it'll be about eight

1:57:55minutes to get you home

1:57:56like that's what that's awesome and

1:57:58that's the same sort of thing that I'm

1:57:59thinking about when I say extrapolating

1:58:01google photos advantages out you know

1:58:03what what can that get me and that that

1:58:05sort of thing oh I see you're in the car

1:58:08I know what you're probably going to do

1:58:09it'll probably take about 10 minutes

1:58:11that is awesome and it doesn't have to

1:58:13be google and it doesn't have to be

1:58:15server-side in in every single case but

1:58:18i can see how a lot of cases like photos

1:58:21there are many advantages of it being

1:58:23server-side from a company that does the

1:58:26sort of machine learning all the time

1:58:27every time I get into my car

1:58:30Proactive tells me how long it takes to

1:58:31get the chicken salad le so it actually

1:58:33pretty well being serious doesn't really

1:58:35ya the main place to go

1:58:38I mean I would argue it's probably

1:58:39working as designed it tells me the work

1:58:42one though I think I feel like it tells

1:58:44me at times when it should know that I'm

1:58:45not going to work i don't know how would

1:58:46you know like maybe the national holiday

1:58:48maybe it's Christmas so again the car

1:58:50it's you know X number of minutes to

1:58:52work like come on it's Christmas and not

1:58:53going to work