The Accidental Tech Podcast

168: Coffee Stops Working


00:00:00   talk about tebow next week sorry John [TS]

00:00:03   we're never talking with Eva so we're in [TS]

00:00:06   the midst of talking about what to do [TS]

00:00:08   about shirts for this year we've been [TS]

00:00:10   talking about it the three of us for a [TS]

00:00:12   couple of weeks now thing and i really [TS]

00:00:15   like it and i really like it and we [TS]

00:00:18   haven't really come up with any [TS]

00:00:19   brilliant ideas in terms of design we [TS]

00:00:21   don't want to just kind of phone it in [TS]

00:00:23   and do regurgitation of a prior design [TS]

00:00:27   but you know we if their listeners that [TS]

00:00:30   would like shirts we want to fulfill [TS]

00:00:33   that need [TS]

00:00:34   so where were in the midst of a debate [TS]

00:00:36   over what to do when we were currently [TS]

00:00:38   leaning towards I think not doing shirts [TS]

00:00:40   this year in part because teespring [TS]

00:00:42   isn't going to have them done and [TS]

00:00:45   delivered before wdc which is typically [TS]

00:00:47   when we try to get this thing done by so [TS]

00:00:49   we're not sure what to do [TS]

00:00:52   yeah so because basically letting you [TS]

00:00:53   know WBC is is a nice target date [TS]

00:00:56   because a lot of fans are there and [TS]

00:01:00   people like buying shirts and showing [TS]

00:01:02   off their t-shirts there but the reality [TS]

00:01:04   is that the vast majority of purchasers [TS]

00:01:06   of the shirt probably aren't going to pc [TS]

00:01:09   Edward we're talking like you do people [TS]

00:01:11   have t-shirt fatigue or people tired of [TS]

00:01:13   teachers people have too many t-shirts [TS]

00:01:15   is there anything else we could sell [TS]

00:01:16   they be a hoodie maybe like mugs or [TS]

00:01:18   other stuff that's not shirts polo [TS]

00:01:20   shirts and so and and you know my [TS]

00:01:22   position is very strong that like I [TS]

00:01:24   think we should have an original design [TS]

00:01:25   every time we do these things and and [TS]

00:01:28   you know we because we don't want to [TS]

00:01:30   like you know I learned forever ago from [TS]

00:01:33   howard stern actually I learned a lot [TS]

00:01:36   from he had a thing he was he was kind [TS]

00:01:38   of criticizing somebody else if it's [TS]

00:01:40   nothing I didn't rush limbaugh school [TS]

00:01:41   some other like talk show host for like [TS]

00:01:44   constantly nickel-and-diming the [TS]

00:01:45   audience for just selling them all sorts [TS]

00:01:48   of garbage with with his name on it or [TS]

00:01:50   something like that and and howard said [TS]

00:01:52   like his his position as always to [TS]

00:01:54   basically asked the audience for money [TS]

00:01:56   as infrequently as possible to not so [TS]

00:01:58   that's why you can't get like howard [TS]

00:02:00   stern's face on a bumper sticker like [TS]

00:02:01   you can't there's there's pretty much no [TS]

00:02:04   official merchandise for the shows it's [TS]

00:02:06   very little if any i can I never even [TS]

00:02:08   seen any and he said when he moved to [TS]

00:02:10   serious that was like a big ask that was [TS]

00:02:11   like are you moving from free [TS]

00:02:13   Radio to a paid services like a madman [TS]

00:02:15   ask the audience now for the pretty big [TS]

00:02:17   ask [TS]

00:02:18   come to me just to this paid service and [TS]

00:02:21   he said he was already asked them for [TS]

00:02:22   that then he really didn't want to ask [TS]

00:02:23   them for more money like anything else [TS]

00:02:26   he really wanted to kind of like [TS]

00:02:27   conserve the times he asked the audience [TS]

00:02:29   for money you know as respect for the [TS]

00:02:31   audience and so that when he does ask it [TS]

00:02:33   matters and so I i I've kind of [TS]

00:02:36   internalize that and a lot of stuff I do [TS]

00:02:39   and that's why I feel like with the show [TS]

00:02:40   I feel like for us to ask the listeners [TS]

00:02:43   hey go buy this thing I want to make [TS]

00:02:45   sure it's it's good i want and i don't [TS]

00:02:47   want to ask that question too often and [TS]

00:02:49   so that's why I like for me it's not [TS]

00:02:50   enough to just say let's just do you [TS]

00:02:53   know that the original shirt with the [TS]

00:02:55   logo wanted with Swift on the back for [TS]

00:02:57   instance which one of the ideas we had [TS]

00:02:58   but should we should be fine because the [TS]

00:03:00   original version had just seeking the [TS]

00:03:02   back wheel but Swift in the back and it [TS]

00:03:04   would feel like folding it in and we [TS]

00:03:06   don't want to do that to you to the [TS]

00:03:08   audience because if we're going to ask [TS]

00:03:09   you to buy something we want to make [TS]

00:03:10   sure it's it's like good and and that we [TS]

00:03:13   are putting a lot of effort into our [TS]

00:03:14   site as well [TS]

00:03:16   yeah so we're in summary were not sure [TS]

00:03:18   what to do and and when we don't know [TS]

00:03:20   don't know what to do with probably spun [TS]

00:03:22   wait until somebody has a clever idea i [TS]

00:03:24   do love that lava like in the chat [TS]

00:03:26   suggested making ATP watchstrap i do [TS]

00:03:29   think that is brilliant that is [TS]

00:03:30   fantastic for the Apple watches the the [TS]

00:03:33   two of us are wearing LOL it could [TS]

00:03:34   become multiple multiple versions my [TS]

00:03:36   could have a spring bar so you can put [TS]

00:03:37   any watch and John's could just be like [TS]

00:03:40   something that you hang on the wall or [TS]

00:03:41   something i can come with the arm hair [TS]

00:03:43   already torn out of your arm and attach [TS]

00:03:45   it to the strap [TS]

00:03:46   well John we could get like we can get [TS]

00:03:48   like custom dining flexes printed I [TS]

00:03:50   don't know what that is I have no idea [TS]

00:03:51   what that is weird I about it's a there [TS]

00:03:53   the RSI the little like gyroscopes [TS]

00:03:55   pinball things that people use for our [TS]

00:03:57   so that's actually really good idea for [TS]

00:03:59   a while to get used to this [TS]

00:04:01   alright alright speaking of useless [TS]

00:04:05   information i have a very short story [TS]

00:04:06   that i'd like to share [TS]

00:04:07   I apparently have a know what's the term [TS]

00:04:10   for this somebody that has my exact same [TS]

00:04:12   name but isn't me [TS]

00:04:13   doppelganger between or doppelganger by [TS]

00:04:15   yeah but it doesn't he doesn't look like [TS]

00:04:17   me when I was trying to get myself onto [TS]

00:04:20   the right time table when I was in [TS]

00:04:21   california on vacation as everyone [TS]

00:04:23   always is when they're in California I [TS]

00:04:26   probably [TS]

00:04:27   is doing vandy search for god knows what [TS]

00:04:28   and I somehow came up with the link i [TS]

00:04:31   just put in the chat that says casey [TS]

00:04:34   list a senior computer engineering major [TS]

00:04:35   at the University of New Hampshire [TS]

00:04:37   presented his research on quote IOT [TS]

00:04:39   security basic implementation of the [TS]

00:04:41   hash function Blake and I was completely [TS]

00:04:44   stupefied by this because I've seen [TS]

00:04:46   plenty of Casey's not even seen a [TS]

00:04:47   handful of Lissa's but to see the [TS]

00:04:50   combination of kc list was startling and [TS]

00:04:52   then furthermore I found another page [TS]

00:04:55   this is how bored in desperate i was [TS]

00:04:58   during my bout of insomnia i found [TS]

00:04:59   another page that had some mention of a [TS]

00:05:04   of a guy Cory lists cor ey who [TS]

00:05:08   supposedly looks like justin timberlake [TS]

00:05:09   even though he really doesn't who has a [TS]

00:05:12   twin Casey listen this is doubly [TS]

00:05:13   interesting because my dad's name is [TS]

00:05:15   cory it's spelled differently but yeah [TS]

00:05:18   very weird and that's totally weirded me [TS]

00:05:21   out and I wanted to share with the group [TS]

00:05:22   and we can cut this from the show you [TS]

00:05:24   know it would be amazing i'm not [TS]

00:05:25   Christmas show because i think it would [TS]

00:05:26   be amazing if it became like a thing [TS]

00:05:29   that people did that whenever they [TS]

00:05:32   wanted to give like a fake name to a [TS]

00:05:34   newspaper reporter or something instead [TS]

00:05:35   of going for something like name that [TS]

00:05:37   sounds like you know like some general [TS]

00:05:39   reference when it said aloud that you [TS]

00:05:41   know people have done before you start [TS]

00:05:43   giving named casey less ok and it [TS]

00:05:46   wouldn't be amazing to just have like [TS]

00:05:47   all the kc Lissa's like just showing up [TS]

00:05:50   everywhere [TS]

00:05:51   no that'll ruin my vanity searches man [TS]

00:05:53   come on that's the best reason to do it [TS]

00:05:55   yeah yeah so that really weirded me out [TS]

00:05:59   when I was in California was probably [TS]

00:06:01   three in the morning or something like [TS]

00:06:02   this and i found that i have a quasi [TS]

00:06:05   doppelganger I think there's a term for [TS]

00:06:06   this I don't think its doppelganger [TS]

00:06:08   because this is a double ganger somebody [TS]

00:06:09   that looks like you but isn't you [TS]

00:06:11   yes where's the Loom lot it's over the a [TS]

00:06:14   I gotta get this right and unless we [TS]

00:06:16   have all the appearance [TS]

00:06:17   oh my god those for you yeah we're all [TS]

00:06:21   just one serial killer away from having [TS]

00:06:23   her vanity searches ruined anyway you're [TS]

00:06:27   going through a letter or pop star you [TS]

00:06:30   going through life and your name is [TS]

00:06:32   Michael Bolton has an office space and [TS]

00:06:34   you feel like you're fine [TS]

00:06:35   it was a good game so that no-talent [TS]

00:06:38   assclown room [TS]

00:06:40   God did we or did we get a reference [TS]

00:06:42   trifecta I yeah i was i'm coming down to [TS]

00:06:45   your level [TS]

00:06:46   it's one of the five movies I've seen [TS]

00:06:47   goodness alright so we should probably [TS]

00:06:55   do a little bit of follow-up wdc charge [TS]

00:06:58   failures we had a lot of discussion in [TS]

00:07:00   the past episode about what would happen [TS]

00:07:03   if you win the lottery and you have won [TS]

00:07:06   the right to give Apple sixteen hundred [TS]

00:07:08   dollars of your money and then they [TS]

00:07:10   attempt to charge your credit card and [TS]

00:07:11   credit card company says screw you [TS]

00:07:13   listen David back road in and said I got [TS]

00:07:16   an email on Saturday that they failed to [TS]

00:07:17   charge my card for WWDC I updated my [TS]

00:07:19   info and they successfully charged it [TS]

00:07:21   today I even got a phone call from an [TS]

00:07:23   apple dev relations representative to [TS]

00:07:25   make sure everything worked out [TS]

00:07:26   additionally Andrew wrote in my credit [TS]

00:07:29   card got declined not for billing info [TS]

00:07:31   apple gave me three days to get it fixed [TS]

00:07:34   yeah so that's great sounds like they [TS]

00:07:35   have they have taken this really bad [TS]

00:07:38   like just kind of like you know really [TS]

00:07:41   like hurts to happen to you floss from [TS]

00:07:43   previous lottery systems the last couple [TS]

00:07:45   years and they have fixed it so that's [TS]

00:07:47   great let's talk about Volvos level for [TS]

00:07:50   self-driving car [TS]

00:07:51   yes the beginning of the beginning [TS]

00:07:54   beginning middle of the autonomous [TS]

00:07:56   driving crash talking among car vendor [TS]

00:08:00   so Tesla that's a lot of the press for [TS]

00:08:01   the self-driving cars and marco was [TS]

00:08:03   talking about the last show how people [TS]

00:08:05   were asking always the one that drives [TS]

00:08:06   itself and everything and so of course [TS]

00:08:08   every car maker has some variant of this [TS]

00:08:09   type of technology they're out now are [TS]

00:08:11   coming out soon and Volvo is hyping its [TS]

00:08:14   self-driving stuff mostly on a safety [TS]

00:08:18   basis and they are trashing Tesla saying [TS]

00:08:22   that they have you know level for we [TS]

00:08:23   talked about that the past show the sae [TS]

00:08:25   levels of autonomous cars going from [TS]

00:08:28   zero to five five being full automation [TS]

00:08:29   of all those things supposedly level [TS]

00:08:32   forest is not only would drive itself [TS]

00:08:33   down the road but it is capable of [TS]

00:08:34   handling any situation that come across [TS]

00:08:36   without human intervention something [TS]

00:08:38   goes wrong in the car can even see if we [TS]

00:08:39   stop itself at the side of the road and [TS]

00:08:41   there are senior technical leader of [TS]

00:08:44   crash avoidance at volvo says yeah if [TS]

00:08:47   you don't take over meaning like if you [TS]

00:08:49   don't take over driving if you're [TS]

00:08:51   falling asleep you're watching a film [TS]

00:08:52   then we will take responsible [TS]

00:08:53   he won't just turn autonomous mode off [TS]

00:08:55   so that's you know Tesla will do the [TS]

00:08:57   market was it like beeps at you or [TS]

00:09:00   something and then eventually turns [TS]

00:09:02   autonomous mode offers to do if you are [TS]

00:09:03   if you don't take the wheel it beeps [TS]

00:09:05   like a quick error code the beep and [TS]

00:09:06   then it's like the same code if it fails [TS]

00:09:08   your kind of used to hearing it in bad [TS]

00:09:10   situations and then it just said I you [TS]

00:09:12   know I haven't actually let it go to see [TS]

00:09:14   like what happens if I don't intervene [TS]

00:09:16   and I probably won't ever try that but I [TS]

00:09:18   would imagine it just coast I don't [TS]

00:09:20   think it likes slows down or try to pull [TS]

00:09:22   over or anything but I could be wrong [TS]

00:09:24   yes I was always saying there they said [TS]

00:09:26   they're claiming to have a level-4 [TS]

00:09:27   system which is called hi automation and [TS]

00:09:29   this little diagram from the SEC folks [TS]

00:09:31   one below full automation and they claim [TS]

00:09:34   that you know don't worry about it we [TS]

00:09:36   will handle everything we all want just [TS]

00:09:38   handle like oh well do that you driving [TS]

00:09:40   when it's easy but we get confused as [TS]

00:09:41   you're trying to take over the city when [TS]

00:09:43   you fall asleep [TS]

00:09:44   we'll handle it now does handling it [TS]

00:09:46   mean oh if you fall asleep pull over to [TS]

00:09:48   the side of the road because that could [TS]

00:09:49   be extremely dangerous depending on [TS]

00:09:50   which road you're on but anyway the [TS]

00:09:54   research for true artificial [TS]

00:09:56   intelligence to drive your car continues [TS]

00:09:58   you know and also i mean there's there's [TS]

00:09:59   so many other things about this about [TS]

00:10:01   you know unintended automated driving [TS]

00:10:04   they're just really hard like as I'm [TS]

00:10:06   driving around it now town with this [TS]

00:10:08   like partially rudimentary referred [TS]

00:10:11   mental rudimentary what's the word their [TS]

00:10:13   rudimentary but with but in adjective [TS]

00:10:16   form I you got me rudimentary Lee anyway [TS]

00:10:21   whatever that word is if it exists as [TS]

00:10:23   I'm driving around with with a car with [TS]

00:10:25   that level of automation I i see so many [TS]

00:10:29   situations where like wow myself every [TS]

00:10:31   car we have a really hard time with with [TS]

00:10:33   this thing i just adore this road them [TS]

00:10:35   on or this condition is past and even [TS]

00:10:37   simple things like those systems that [TS]

00:10:38   are automated for the highway great but [TS]

00:10:41   what about highways of traffic lights on [TS]

00:10:42   them you know then like if it's going to [TS]

00:10:44   be that level of automation wear it it [TS]

00:10:49   supposedly handles you stopping paying [TS]

00:10:51   attention [TS]

00:10:51   it has to also do things like stopped at [TS]

00:10:54   traffic lights and or you know follow a [TS]

00:10:56   traffic cop directions through [TS]

00:10:58   construction zones or something like [TS]

00:10:59   there's so many is so many things like [TS]

00:11:02   that where [TS]

00:11:03   it's just a really hard problem that you [TS]

00:11:05   know things are even often hard for [TS]

00:11:07   humans to figure out what to do where to [TS]

00:11:08   put their car and so it just shows like [TS]

00:11:12   once you start thinking about it and [TS]

00:11:13   seeing the seeing in real life and [TS]

00:11:14   seeing how limited the systems are today [TS]

00:11:16   I think it just goes to show quite how [TS]

00:11:19   complex of a problem this is not that [TS]

00:11:21   it's unsolvable necessarily but that as [TS]

00:11:24   as we said last time it just may not be [TS]

00:11:26   as imminent as a lot of people are [TS]

00:11:28   predicting a few people have written [TS]

00:11:30   into say you know you guys you really [TS]

00:11:33   are supposed to eject volumes on windows [TS]

00:11:36   as well as on OS 10 i can tell you that [TS]

00:11:40   I used windows for a long long time and [TS]

00:11:42   all I ever did was pay attention to this [TS]

00:11:45   is almost always with the USB key pay [TS]

00:11:47   attention to when the USB key stopped [TS]

00:11:49   flashing its little LED and then I [TS]

00:11:52   ripped it out never thought twice and i [TS]

00:11:53   think i might have data may have had [TS]

00:11:55   data loss like once who knows how many [TS]

00:11:58   files you corrupted you know then was [TS]

00:12:00   that you notice once [TS]

00:12:01   fair enough i didn't know that you were [TS]

00:12:02   supposed to matter i thought that was [TS]

00:12:04   the the actual windows way was way for [TS]

00:12:06   the blinking light to stop it must have [TS]

00:12:07   been at some point like in the das days [TS]

00:12:09   i guess because there's no unmounting [TS]

00:12:10   your floppy disk and das you just wait [TS]

00:12:12   for the drive like to stop blinking and [TS]

00:12:13   then you right turn the little thing and [TS]

00:12:15   yank out your five and a quarter but [TS]

00:12:19   anyway I it if you're supposed to do in [TS]

00:12:21   a modern windows too i have also not [TS]

00:12:22   seen people do that they just wait for [TS]

00:12:24   the light that thinking like to stop and [TS]

00:12:26   yank it out and that is crazy in a world [TS]

00:12:28   of Ohio but fair enough [TS]

00:12:33   alright well any other follow-up unless [TS]

00:12:36   unless we want to talk more about the [TS]

00:12:37   bumper sounds I mean we should talk [TS]

00:12:39   about that at some point out of its [TS]

00:12:40   follow-up anymore though we have more to [TS]

00:12:42   talk about we're leaving XP sounds [TS]

00:12:44   because they're perfect [TS]

00:12:45   alright moving on responses tonight by [TS]

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00:13:07   and is delivered in a remarkably small [TS]

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00:13:45   price premium mattress is often cost [TS]

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00:14:44   thanks to cast for sponsoring our show [TS]

00:14:45   so you released a new version of [TS]

00:14:48   overcast which has a much-improved sync [TS]

00:14:52   system or maybe yeah how was your day a [TS]

00:14:56   few days ago [TS]

00:14:56   well I release two versions overcast in [TS]

00:14:59   the last few days if that tells you [TS]

00:15:00   exactly how good the first one was mine [TS]

00:15:05   yeah I released a new version overcast [TS]

00:15:08   that had a noticeable improvements to [TS]

00:15:10   sinking and in particular the speed of [TS]

00:15:14   syncing between multiple devices and [TS]

00:15:16   iikind of code name this quick sync even [TS]

00:15:18   though i know lots of other things i can [TS]

00:15:20   tell things like there's so many things [TS]

00:15:21   in the tech industry called Quick Sync [TS]

00:15:23   that's why I'd not really heavily [TS]

00:15:25   branding it and I didn't capitalize it [TS]

00:15:27   i'm not really it doesn't appear [TS]

00:15:28   anywhere in the apt [TS]

00:15:29   kind of is what i call it in blog posts [TS]

00:15:31   it basically what this is is a weird [TS]

00:15:36   tricky sync system that combines push [TS]

00:15:40   notifications and icloud key-value store [TS]

00:15:43   to try to get fast thinking between [TS]

00:15:47   multiple devices most of which are Apple [TS]

00:15:49   devices and one of which is my website [TS]

00:15:50   the technical details of it aren't that [TS]

00:15:53   interesting i don't think every single [TS]

00:15:56   object has a sink version number on it [TS]

00:15:58   and when you make a change you increment [TS]

00:15:59   the version number and the server [TS]

00:16:01   command the server managers conflicts [TS]

00:16:02   when they arise when you make a change [TS]

00:16:04   you also append to an iCloud key value [TS]

00:16:07   store list the object you just changing [TS]

00:16:09   its ID and then the version number that [TS]

00:16:11   you just set on it when the key-value [TS]

00:16:13   store syncs across other devices that [TS]

00:16:16   are running overcast they will within [TS]

00:16:18   usually a few seconds or so they will [TS]

00:16:20   get that notification from iCloud which [TS]

00:16:22   has a persistent connection to the [TS]

00:16:23   phones will get information from cloud [TS]

00:16:25   saying hey this dictionary just changed [TS]

00:16:27   and now you can look at you can say this [TS]

00:16:30   has version numbers on these objects [TS]

00:16:32   that I don't know about yet so then that [TS]

00:16:34   triggers the device to go to my servers [TS]

00:16:36   and fetch the new information even in [TS]

00:16:38   the background [TS]

00:16:39   well it won't it if the app is running [TS]

00:16:41   at all it'll get the notifications but [TS]

00:16:44   if it's so if it's playing audio it will [TS]

00:16:46   get them because running but if it's [TS]

00:16:48   suspended in the background when it's [TS]

00:16:49   not playing audio it won't get them [TS]

00:16:51   until it wakes up again [TS]

00:16:52   gotcha so i made the system and I [TS]

00:16:54   tightened up a few other timings of [TS]

00:16:56   various things like when you activate [TS]

00:16:59   the app how often is it sink is it to [TS]

00:17:01   sink every time you activated or is it [TS]

00:17:03   doesn't have like a certain minimum [TS]

00:17:04   every X minutes and then certain things [TS]

00:17:06   you do like should I sink every time you [TS]

00:17:10   pause or seek and then if if you're just [TS]

00:17:12   playing audio how often should I sink [TS]

00:17:15   the playback position of that so if that [TS]

00:17:17   thing's probably to the website and your [TS]

00:17:19   other devices if you have any devices [TS]

00:17:20   it's just this kind of complex fairly [TS]

00:17:25   boring solution to a really tricky [TS]

00:17:27   problem which is sinking things in both [TS]

00:17:30   way that's quick and efficient of data [TS]

00:17:32   and power usage and server resources [TS]

00:17:34   it's kind of hard to get right and the [TS]

00:17:37   first version i launched I didn't get it [TS]

00:17:39   right and smoke there was a sink loop [TS]

00:17:43   issue which fortunately I could fix [TS]

00:17:46   server side but all day yesterday my [TS]

00:17:49   servers are collapsing because this in [TS]

00:17:52   theory creates more sink requests than [TS]

00:17:54   before i was expecting this [TS]

00:17:56   and so on the server I i actually the [TS]

00:17:59   server tells the app how frequently to [TS]

00:18:02   sink certain things and and how long [TS]

00:18:04   certain time should be so things like to [TS]

00:18:07   to coalesce or had his head [TS]

00:18:09   federico that koalas time timer [TS]

00:18:12   qualifying yes so so I i do some of that [TS]

00:18:14   and so the server using just like you [TS]

00:18:17   know tweaking some variables variables [TS]

00:18:18   in the server i can slow down all the [TS]

00:18:20   ads or speed them up and so I lost like [TS]

00:18:22   kind of like a middle setting i thought [TS]

00:18:24   would be good a little bit conservative [TS]

00:18:25   and my servers were just collapsing and [TS]

00:18:29   I'm wondering what the heck is going on [TS]

00:18:30   so I start looking at the logs right at [TS]

00:18:32   you know adding more debug information [TS]

00:18:33   for an optimized certain things I [TS]

00:18:35   immediately provision fifty percent more [TS]

00:18:37   web servers just more instances get them [TS]

00:18:40   out there p someone comes with the [TS]

00:18:41   massive speed up and memory reduction so [TS]

00:18:44   in the midst of all this i'm like you [TS]

00:18:46   know I was running on one server before [TS]

00:18:47   and let me just deployed to the rest i [TS]

00:18:49   need any savings you can get right now [TS]

00:18:51   so i have creepy doll them doing all [TS]

00:18:54   this crazy stuff upgrading things [TS]

00:18:55   optimizing things checking database [TS]

00:18:56   query spreading out memcache like doing [TS]

00:18:58   all like mike reading skills of it was [TS]

00:19:00   like the server day from hell [TS]

00:19:03   in my career I've had many server days [TS]

00:19:06   from hell [TS]

00:19:07   very few of them know after i left [TS]

00:19:09   tumblr because i was once I left tumblr [TS]

00:19:11   i was dealing with things that were just [TS]

00:19:13   much smaller scale so it's paper you [TS]

00:19:16   know I had some of those days but the [TS]

00:19:17   scale wasn't as big and then with with [TS]

00:19:19   overcast I've had almost none of those [TS]

00:19:21   surveys from hell because a I've gotten [TS]

00:19:24   better at do at doing server stuff be [TS]

00:19:26   the server stuff has got more powerful [TS]

00:19:28   and see overcast isn't that big as i get [TS]

00:19:31   further from having server days from [TS]

00:19:33   Hell frequently each one I have now is [TS]

00:19:37   like I have no tolerance for any more so [TS]

00:19:39   each server day from hell i have now at [TS]

00:19:42   the end of it just like i'm just using [TS]

00:19:43   iCloud from now on I like I don't want [TS]

00:19:45   to ever be doing this again [TS]

00:19:47   but but but i'm still doing it for the [TS]

00:19:50   next few days at least speak what [TS]

00:19:52   happens anyway so eventually to make a [TS]

00:19:55   very long story short eventually I'll i [TS]

00:19:58   figured out under certain conditions [TS]

00:20:00   after basically there there's a race [TS]

00:20:02   condition checker if between when used [TS]

00:20:05   when you start a sink and when you end [TS]

00:20:07   the sink if you change that object [TS]

00:20:10   locally then you by definition have the [TS]

00:20:12   most recent version as long as think [TS]

00:20:14   that you didn't span hours or days or [TS]

00:20:16   whatever you know if it's like an [TS]

00:20:17   immediate mode sink if you modify it [TS]

00:20:20   during sync operation and the server [TS]

00:20:21   comes back saying what you have is [TS]

00:20:23   out-of-date replace it with this stuff I [TS]

00:20:25   got from some other ipad somewhere [TS]

00:20:26   that's in your closet then you know like [TS]

00:20:28   know what you have is correct so there's [TS]

00:20:30   a condition where the app can tell the [TS]

00:20:32   server no matter what you think you have [TS]

00:20:35   replace it with what i have i'm forcing [TS]

00:20:37   you to accept my eyes a force over right [TS]

00:20:39   kind of conflict resolution [TS]

00:20:41   there's condition where the app was [TS]

00:20:43   saying no force this because there was a [TS]

00:20:45   race condition the server under certain [TS]

00:20:47   conditions was incrementing its version [TS]

00:20:50   number on the response back which meant [TS]

00:20:53   it put itself in a loop the app would [TS]

00:20:55   say no force it to have this the server [TS]

00:20:58   would say okay and it was sent back [TS]

00:21:00   something saying but the new version is [TS]

00:21:01   this and the app would say okay but I'm [TS]

00:21:04   also changing out the new version is [TS]

00:21:06   this plus one server would say back on [TS]

00:21:08   ok thanks but now it's this plus 1 so it [TS]

00:21:11   was it created this loop under that [TS]

00:21:13   certain race conditioned response [TS]

00:21:14   scenario that in which also nothing was [TS]

00:21:17   actually changed it [TS]

00:21:18   it's this wouldn't have happened for [TS]

00:21:20   almost anybody and I had a beta test [TS]

00:21:23   that have 500 people on it and it never [TS]

00:21:25   happened in the beta should let it run [TS]

00:21:27   to see if you could have overflow the [TS]

00:21:28   end [TS]

00:21:28   how big was the the number big enough [TS]

00:21:31   that i would have gotten very big [TS]

00:21:33   trouble if i would have let that happen [TS]

00:21:35   because it's I i don't think i used a [TS]

00:21:39   big and i think i use a regular in so [TS]

00:21:40   it's it's at least 32 bits ahead and and [TS]

00:21:43   I was seeing revision numbers that were [TS]

00:21:45   in like the you know six hundreds range [TS]

00:21:48   so it would have taken a while to get to [TS]

00:21:51   4.2 billion that will be there it was [TS]

00:21:55   if I unsigned it you know maybe two [TS]

00:21:57   billion if I if I didn't if I signed it [TS]

00:21:59   but anyway [TS]

00:22:00   so this this is obviously a problem [TS]

00:22:02   fortunately that i was able to fix [TS]

00:22:04   server side but it took me most of the [TS]

00:22:06   day to find that to figure out what was [TS]

00:22:09   causing certain clients to just hit the [TS]

00:22:12   sync service over and over again with [TS]

00:22:13   seemingly identical looking requests so [TS]

00:22:16   i resolved my day from hell for the most [TS]

00:22:18   part there was also separately from that [TS]

00:22:21   a race condition sink plug which causes [TS]

00:22:24   episodes to basically come back from the [TS]

00:22:25   dead [TS]

00:22:26   sometimes like if you if you played it [TS]

00:22:28   on an iPad and then went and finished on [TS]

00:22:30   your phone [TS]

00:22:31   next time you launch the ipad app the [TS]

00:22:32   ipad but tell the server hey I have this [TS]

00:22:34   version of those things I'm playing and [TS]

00:22:36   it also can can cause some weird issues [TS]

00:22:39   so i submitted an expedited request [TS]

00:22:40   which I hardly ever do so basically it [TS]

00:22:44   was it was a day and a half from hell [TS]

00:22:47   and now my hands are all sore from RSI [TS]

00:22:51   stuff from the server day from how and [TS]

00:22:53   yeah I i'm looking forward to just [TS]

00:22:55   talking for the next hour instead of [TS]

00:22:58   well not the whole hour you're gonna [TS]

00:22:59   talk for most of the rest of it the part [TS]

00:23:02   where we tell Marco about unit test [TS]

00:23:04   again I think Casey because i think [TS]

00:23:06   you're right on our regular scheduled [TS]

00:23:08   see what you do is for every weird case [TS]

00:23:10   you can think of involving everywhere [TS]

00:23:12   device you simulate those scenarios in a [TS]

00:23:14   series of tests and every time you come [TS]

00:23:15   for the new scenario that you're worried [TS]

00:23:17   about as you drift off to sleep you're [TS]

00:23:18   like I'm going to write tests for that [TS]

00:23:19   and see if it works and then you run [TS]

00:23:20   those tests to make sure you haven't [TS]

00:23:21   broken anything it really thats it [TS]

00:23:23   everytime you revise the sync system and [TS]

00:23:26   then you feel better when you do release [TS]

00:23:28   and you're still not going to find all [TS]

00:23:29   the bugs but every time you find one of [TS]

00:23:30   them part of fixing the bug is not just [TS]

00:23:32   fixing it on your server and fiction and [TS]

00:23:33   your client releasing two versions but [TS]

00:23:34   writing a failing test case to isolate [TS]

00:23:37   the bug and then fixing the bug and see [TS]

00:23:38   that it fixes your tests and then every [TS]

00:23:40   time you run this s you feel a little [TS]

00:23:42   better about the changes you're making [TS]

00:23:43   yep that cover everything [TS]

00:23:45   yeah I think so alright so so John case [TS]

00:23:48   you guys can come over and you can read [TS]

00:23:49   a bunch of tests for me to show me how [TS]

00:23:51   good they are [TS]

00:23:51   I won't pay you doing for exposure and [TS]

00:23:54   of course and then you can and if I like [TS]

00:23:57   it maybe i'll hire you in the future [TS]

00:23:59   mm I see how does everybody think so [TS]

00:24:04   it's the new gig you know where were [TS]

00:24:05   implementing the company's a pall over [TS]

00:24:09   again you know where we implementing our [TS]

00:24:10   app and the guy I'm working with whom [TS]

00:24:14   archos actually a Jamie he has not [TS]

00:24:17   really done unit testing before but it's [TS]

00:24:19   been really really open to it and really [TS]

00:24:20   interested in doing it on this project [TS]

00:24:22   you know cuz we're trying to do [TS]

00:24:23   everything is right as we possibly can [TS]

00:24:25   and over the last just 48 hours he said [TS]

00:24:29   to me at least three or four different [TS]

00:24:30   times oh my god i'm so glad i wrote a [TS]

00:24:31   unit test because I just exposed a bug i [TS]

00:24:33   didn't even know was there just saying [TS]

00:24:35   they're your friend kids they're your [TS]

00:24:37   friend systems are our pain especially [TS]

00:24:40   in client-server things are pain and you [TS]

00:24:42   know this is like sort of designing for [TS]

00:24:44   testability if you know you're going to [TS]

00:24:46   have something like that as a pain like [TS]

00:24:47   how much I'm gonna write as against as [TS]

00:24:49   you need a server and the client their [TS]

00:24:50   separate code bases the running several [TS]

00:24:52   places like it encourages you to make [TS]

00:24:54   both ends of your sync system work [TS]

00:24:58   disembodied like happens to be divorced [TS]

00:25:01   from both the client and the server so [TS]

00:25:02   you can actually test them and then the [TS]

00:25:04   only thing the client and the server [TS]

00:25:05   providing is like little homes and [TS]

00:25:07   transport mechanisms and you can test [TS]

00:25:09   the transformers and mechanisms [TS]

00:25:10   independently and then once you have [TS]

00:25:12   those pieces and you're confident that [TS]

00:25:13   those tests show that they work the way [TS]

00:25:15   they work then you can write your series [TS]

00:25:17   of scenarios with just a bunch of you [TS]

00:25:18   know test data and fixtures and you know [TS]

00:25:21   the beginning your chest you make a [TS]

00:25:22   whole bunch of theoretical devices in [TS]

00:25:23   different states and then you make them [TS]

00:25:25   collide with each other in different [TS]

00:25:26   ways you can do fuzz testing and [TS]

00:25:28   randomize them and have them you know be [TS]

00:25:30   turned on and turned off at random [TS]

00:25:32   intervals to make sure everything [TS]

00:25:33   resolved and you know anyway [TS]

00:25:36   yeah they are they are super annoying to [TS]

00:25:37   code and super annoying to test but if [TS]

00:25:40   you if you code with that in mind from [TS]

00:25:42   the beginning you can save yourself a [TS]

00:25:43   lot of a lot of headaches i remember [TS]

00:25:46   with the worst one I think I recall [TS]

00:25:47   doing was involved a whole mess of [TS]

00:25:50   stored procedure code in the database [TS]

00:25:52   which is a particularly easy to like [TS]

00:25:54   divorce from the database itself and you [TS]

00:25:57   can't really mock it while you can [TS]

00:25:59   market the other sense of the word but [TS]

00:26:00   anyway so you kind of had so you had to [TS]

00:26:04   like sort of make a new database [TS]

00:26:06   instance for testing purposes filled [TS]

00:26:08   with crap data and then run the store [TS]

00:26:10   procedures I couldn't figure out how to [TS]

00:26:12   get that logic out of there and had to [TS]

00:26:14   be any way it always it that's that's [TS]

00:26:17   what the worst and the best project that [TS]

00:26:18   I can recall [TS]

00:26:19   and that way the worst thing that was [TS]

00:26:20   the hardest to make it testable and the [TS]

00:26:23   best in that it was this Byzantine [TS]

00:26:24   system came up [TS]

00:26:25   movers come up with by some business [TS]

00:26:28   person with a very complicated excel [TS]

00:26:30   spreadsheet and there's no way in hell I [TS]

00:26:31   would have any confidence that I was [TS]

00:26:33   correctly implementing this crazy [TS]

00:26:35   specification it wasn't for x in x and x [TS]

00:26:39   of unit tests was the only I mean that's [TS]

00:26:42   the only way I could have you know when [TS]

00:26:43   i was done because it was just it was [TS]

00:26:45   nonsensical but it's like well this [TS]

00:26:47   thing does what you say in every obscure [TS]

00:26:49   scenario into the corner case that isn't [TS]

00:26:51   covered by your stupid specification [TS]

00:26:53   i'll ask you about it and whatever you [TS]

00:26:54   say on the mint and I'll say look this [TS]

00:26:55   is everything enjoy and I hope tomorrow [TS]

00:27:00   system is considerable as complicated [TS]

00:27:01   than that BS thing that I still think [TS]

00:27:04   about sometimes he still get the night [TS]

00:27:06   sweats about it is a fairly simple [TS]

00:27:08   system it really is it just it like most [TS]

00:27:11   of the bugs and sink have been on the [TS]

00:27:13   app side not on the server side this was [TS]

00:27:16   really think this might be the first [TS]

00:27:17   server-side stink bug that I've ever had [TS]

00:27:20   that was like meaningful well it's a [TS]

00:27:22   combination menu is like which side is [TS]

00:27:24   the bug on who's behaving badly because [TS]

00:27:26   their server was confused because it was [TS]

00:27:27   sending back the wrong version number [TS]

00:27:28   but it's like you know it doesn't really [TS]

00:27:30   matter which side you're on the same [TS]

00:27:31   team here you just trying to just try to [TS]

00:27:33   get them to not have infinite loops like [TS]

00:27:36   that's the one you know coalesced to [TS]

00:27:38   some of the reversion that have does [TS]

00:27:40   those the worst test to make like [TS]

00:27:41   performance tests and like average [TS]

00:27:44   number of sinks test to try to catch out [TS]

00:27:47   of bounds errors when you just want an [TS]

00:27:48   order of magnitude look I'm gonna run [TS]

00:27:49   this whole set of unit tests and it [TS]

00:27:52   should run somewhere in the thousands of [TS]

00:27:55   requests across the virtual wire if it [TS]

00:27:57   runs 10,000 or hundred thousand maybe [TS]

00:28:00   throw of test failure and say hey I've [TS]

00:28:02   seen order of magnitude change in the [TS]

00:28:03   amount of traffic maybe something is [TS]

00:28:05   wrong and that's those type of like [TS]

00:28:06   heuristics especially when it's just [TS]

00:28:07   your own test for years like you know [TS]

00:28:09   because you what you saw was a crazy [TS]

00:28:11   increase in traffic but it could have [TS]

00:28:13   been legit like you don't know that you [TS]

00:28:15   don't you don't know what's out there on [TS]

00:28:16   the world how many minutes maybe [TS]

00:28:17   everyone just updated all the same time [TS]

00:28:19   or whatever but you're in your unit test [TS]

00:28:21   if you had triggered that that loop you [TS]

00:28:24   would have seen the number of requests [TS]

00:28:25   going back and forth be much higher than [TS]

00:28:27   it was before and then you [TS]

00:28:28   on the alert and be like all right well [TS]

00:28:29   none of my test got this bug but this is [TS]

00:28:32   really doing way more sinking traffic [TS]

00:28:34   than i think it shouldn't have to figure [TS]

00:28:35   what that is and for what it's worth the [TS]

00:28:37   protocol oriented design and Swift makes [TS]

00:28:40   a lot of this much easier just saying [TS]

00:28:42   great you can come right all about you [TS]

00:28:43   can write on my swift code to that's [TS]

00:28:45   fine [TS]

00:28:45   so when you are doing all these fixes [TS]

00:28:47   you said a lot of it with server-side [TS]

00:28:49   would you just deploy that crap live [TS]

00:28:53   everywhere and just pray that everything [TS]

00:28:54   was good like how do you handle [TS]

00:28:57   deployments in general and then also in [TS]

00:28:59   these like red alert all hands on deck [TS]

00:29:01   sort of situations but i had to go [TS]

00:29:04   through code review first and then qai [TS]

00:29:06   take away haha he had the inside officer [TS]

00:29:09   management yeah has to go through legal [TS]

00:29:11   you know [TS]

00:29:12   yeah well first i run my my arsenal of [TS]

00:29:16   unit tests and integration tests [TS]

00:29:19   whatever that in mediums [TS]

00:29:21   yep I don't honestly know what that [TS]

00:29:22   means I then have a stand-up in the [TS]

00:29:25   parking lot [TS]

00:29:27   would you stop answer the damn question [TS]

00:29:29   yes so uh i use get to manage my [TS]

00:29:37   webserver source code and when I you [TS]

00:29:41   know what I i have local development [TS]

00:29:43   environment on my mac so I test things [TS]

00:29:46   locally here relatively informally and [TS]

00:29:50   then I'm careful i know that sounds [TS]

00:29:53   terrible i apologize to everybody who's [TS]

00:29:57   yelling at me right now through their [TS]

00:29:58   car speakers or whatever and then I go [TS]

00:30:02   to one of the servers that is kind of [TS]

00:30:04   like they like maintains the master [TS]

00:30:05   check out and I do get pull on there and [TS]

00:30:10   then I have a deploy script from there [TS]

00:30:12   that are single the files to all the [TS]

00:30:15   other servers that matter and that [TS]

00:30:16   script runs a few additional checks to [TS]

00:30:18   make sure things like I didn't commit a [TS]

00:30:20   PHP syntax error like a real refuse to [TS]

00:30:22   push anything like that but it's fairly [TS]

00:30:26   for the most part fairly rudimentary [TS]

00:30:28   preflight checks there and then it sinks [TS]

00:30:31   it and i watch logs and i watch stats [TS]

00:30:34   afterwards to see like tenting reporting [TS]

00:30:37   errors anything jumping up and load [TS]

00:30:39   weirdly or having way you know [TS]

00:30:41   no more anything that I measuring your [TS]

00:30:43   way less than anything I measuring I'm [TS]

00:30:45   measuring things like cache hit rates [TS]

00:30:46   and all sorts of your database [TS]

00:30:48   performance database lag stuff like that [TS]

00:30:49   so you're pulling service out of the [TS]

00:30:51   pool as you update them [TS]

00:30:53   no that's not a pc works literally just [TS]

00:30:55   replace the files like life I know but [TS]

00:30:57   you're not you're not replacing all the [TS]

00:30:58   files at once though [TS]

00:31:00   no it doesn't matter what I kind of does [TS]

00:31:02   Nick I think and it does [TS]

00:31:04   no I I know what you're saying in [TS]

00:31:06   practice it doesn't matter really like [TS]

00:31:09   for the kind of things i'm doing for the [TS]

00:31:10   four the speed at which these things are [TS]

00:31:12   happening the way PHP manages it and the [TS]

00:31:15   error rate like that happen from like [TS]

00:31:17   somebody getting a partially updated [TS]

00:31:18   check out it's enough to to usually [TS]

00:31:22   cause like one crash a year [TS]

00:31:25   well at the traffic regular your normal [TS]

00:31:27   traffic rates yes but 10,000 requests a [TS]

00:31:29   second the the number of requests to [TS]

00:31:31   come in between the time the first file [TS]

00:31:32   our sinks to a server in the last five [TS]

00:31:34   hours think the server could be a big [TS]

00:31:35   number [TS]

00:31:36   oh yeah well that's why I mean yeah [TS]

00:31:38   10,000 requests a second like you don't [TS]

00:31:40   know that that's when you develop better [TS]

00:31:41   systems but my normal traffic level is [TS]

00:31:44   like but a hundred remember you were at [TS]

00:31:46   10,000 requests and second even if [TS]

00:31:48   you're at all those were actually [TS]

00:31:49   getting the application service [TS]

00:31:51   applications kept falling others just [TS]

00:31:53   being a lesbian all right well anyway [TS]

00:31:55   application server getting about 500 of [TS]

00:31:57   them is that the good thing about about [TS]

00:31:59   a truly disastrous scenario is like well [TS]

00:32:02   it's so broken now I can't possibly make [TS]

00:32:04   it worse [TS]

00:32:05   and yeah basically it's like it's [TS]

00:32:07   working at the least of my concerns is [TS]

00:32:09   somebody hitting a web server actually [TS]

00:32:11   getting a response and having that [TS]

00:32:13   response be wrong because of these two [TS]

00:32:15   files at radisson are you know if I've [TS]

00:32:16   had 500 or something because you know [TS]

00:32:18   it's a half updated source code or let [TS]

00:32:21   that actually never happens like the [TS]

00:32:22   files are seemingly updated atomically [TS]

00:32:24   or maybe PHP is smart about when it [TS]

00:32:26   likely pick them up fruit from it's [TS]

00:32:28   compiled cash i don't know he write unit [TS]

00:32:30   tests this with a bunch of sleep call [TS]

00:32:31   somewhere and induce this failure mode [TS]

00:32:34   and see what happens [TS]

00:32:35   added to your list and then he'll will [TS]

00:32:37   freeze over yeah i mean i kind of thing [TS]

00:32:39   like I i am fully aware that the proper [TS]

00:32:43   way to do these things are not the way [TS]

00:32:45   I'm doing them for meant for much of [TS]

00:32:47   this stuff you know the stuff that [TS]

00:32:48   matters [TS]

00:32:49   I think I'm pretty solid on things like [TS]

00:32:50   security privacy like that stuff I i'm [TS]

00:32:53   pretty sure i'm doing correctly you [TS]

00:32:55   as much as I possibly can but things [TS]

00:32:59   like like this it's more kind of like [TS]

00:33:01   the the advanced software development [TS]

00:33:04   proper methodology kind of stuff I do [TS]

00:33:08   play fast and loose with I know that [TS]

00:33:10   part of that is because i never learned [TS]

00:33:12   any other way and I do regret never [TS]

00:33:15   having worked in like a big software [TS]

00:33:17   development organization that was [TS]

00:33:18   well-run I i never had that experience I [TS]

00:33:21   only work in small places where they [TS]

00:33:23   were either just very few developers or [TS]

00:33:25   I wasn't the only one [TS]

00:33:26   and so it's I never learned the more [TS]

00:33:29   fancy systems from anyone elses work [TS]

00:33:33   environment and and I do regret that [TS]

00:33:36   career-wise on some level that's a whole [TS]

00:33:38   other set of pathology is associated [TS]

00:33:40   with those don't believe those are [TS]

00:33:41   actually I mean that's just a different [TS]

00:33:43   set of problems that come with the rest [TS]

00:33:44   is so you can [TS]

00:33:46   yeah so that's the main reason I don't [TS]

00:33:48   do some of the more formalized honestly [TS]

00:33:52   burn some stuff is because I don't know [TS]

00:33:55   how anyone ever done it and then the [TS]

00:33:57   secondary reason is because I just don't [TS]

00:34:00   see the need or the justification for [TS]

00:34:03   the time as a as a one-person you know [TS]

00:34:07   basically part-time project that it's [TS]

00:34:10   you know it's hard for me to justify [TS]

00:34:12   spending a whole bunch of time and [TS]

00:34:14   overhead and extra money on some of the [TS]

00:34:16   stuff because it's like I can't afford [TS]

00:34:19   the time overhead for that and look I [TS]

00:34:22   know there's gonna be a lot of people [TS]

00:34:22   who say well if you can't afford to do [TS]

00:34:25   it right you shouldn't do it all and [TS]

00:34:27   well would you rather overcast not exist [TS]

00:34:29   you know it's that's these are the kinds [TS]

00:34:31   of decisions that I face and so you know [TS]

00:34:34   it's it you do what you can and you know [TS]

00:34:38   what when you're when you're working for [TS]

00:34:39   yourself on your own with a project that [TS]

00:34:42   has fairly slim margins you can't really [TS]

00:34:44   hire anybody else like you know you [TS]

00:34:46   gotta make cuts somewhere and either the [TS]

00:34:48   product doesn't ship or doesn't progress [TS]

00:34:50   or you know you maybe you don't write / [TS]

00:34:52   unit tests or any but you know Horomia [TS]

00:34:55   now I mean the good thing is like that [TS]

00:34:58   the app i'm assuming since I was used [TS]

00:35:01   during the time and didn't know say this [TS]

00:35:03   the app is resilient to the server being [TS]

00:35:04   wonky for the most part you're not going [TS]

00:35:06   to see a bunch of you know just [TS]

00:35:08   the set the failures behind-the-scenes [TS]

00:35:10   to sink or whatever are not stopping you [TS]

00:35:12   from listening to your podcast so in [TS]

00:35:14   some respects you have a grace period [TS]

00:35:16   and protection against users you know [TS]

00:35:19   it's not as if you're at your service [TS]

00:35:20   starts throwing errors on every single [TS]

00:35:22   person using overcast can't listen to [TS]

00:35:23   the podcast and you're just not having [TS]

00:35:25   it manifests in fact so you won't even [TS]

00:35:27   see an error message unless you manually [TS]

00:35:29   initiate a sink like if you do the pull [TS]

00:35:32   to refresh and that sink fails you'll [TS]

00:35:34   see a box but if a routine think of the [TS]

00:35:36   background fails you won't even know [TS]

00:35:38   alright so I betting for most people [TS]

00:35:40   they even though this was a busy [TS]

00:35:42   stressful day for you they had no idea [TS]

00:35:44   this was going on unless they follow the [TS]

00:35:46   overcast twitter account because as far [TS]

00:35:47   as they're concerned maybe if they were [TS]

00:35:49   using multiple devices they would have [TS]

00:35:50   noticed that it didn't sink or something [TS]

00:35:52   and got a little bit of a frowny face [TS]

00:35:53   about your system but as long as once [TS]

00:35:55   you fix it it got in sync again and they [TS]

00:35:57   didn't have to do anything about it [TS]

00:35:58   you still got one leg up on like the the [TS]

00:36:00   stubborn and ability to sync stuff that [TS]

00:36:02   we all complain about an iCloud messages [TS]

00:36:05   or whatever where there's nothing you [TS]

00:36:06   can do and never fixes itself [TS]

00:36:08   automatically writers I mean like you [TS]

00:36:10   know I've built i built all my sink [TS]

00:36:12   stuff to fully work in offline and [TS]

00:36:15   failure scenarios and ended to do the [TS]

00:36:17   right thing as far as i know we'll see [TS]

00:36:20   if I ever tested but as far as i know it [TS]

00:36:23   does the right thing like this all comes [TS]

00:36:25   like when I made into paper that was [TS]

00:36:26   designed for offline use the whole thing [TS]

00:36:28   was designed to be to have a bunch of [TS]

00:36:31   changes happen while offline and then [TS]

00:36:34   sink later at some point and have it [TS]

00:36:36   have it be correct and so I took that [TS]

00:36:38   same ethos to overcast or like any state [TS]

00:36:41   of connections coming up and down and [TS]

00:36:43   doing stuff offline doing stuff online [TS]

00:36:45   it should always do the right thing when [TS]

00:36:47   it gets a chance to connect again and so [TS]

00:36:50   you're right most people onto a like you [TS]

00:36:52   are on Twitter and stuff like I got [TS]

00:36:54   almost no support email about the server [TS]

00:36:56   problems and i got only a very small [TS]

00:36:58   handful of tweets most of the people [TS]

00:37:00   saying why is it like it's being slow to [TS]

00:37:03   load this directory category or this you [TS]

00:37:07   know it was something slow to load [TS]

00:37:08   something that dynamically fetched for [TS]

00:37:10   the most part this mean that that's part [TS]

00:37:12   of the reason why like why able to do [TS]

00:37:15   overcast server stuff without massive [TS]

00:37:18   stress weighing on me all the time [TS]

00:37:20   because honestly i don't have [TS]

00:37:22   the capacity for that anymore i'm able [TS]

00:37:25   to overcast level of it because if the [TS]

00:37:27   entire service goes down you know [TS]

00:37:30   worst-case scenario everything goes down [TS]

00:37:31   kingdom lights up all of my devices with [TS]

00:37:33   alerts for some reason that stays down [TS]

00:37:36   for like two hours [TS]

00:37:37   most of my customers won't even know and [TS]

00:37:40   that's kind of freeing in a way not not [TS]

00:37:43   that I would let that happen but I don't [TS]

00:37:45   have to be in constant fear of that [TS]

00:37:47   happening [TS]

00:37:48   that's interesting point by the way [TS]

00:37:50   speaking of RSI that you were talking [TS]

00:37:52   about 4y well I RSI tip from my longtime [TS]

00:37:55   suffer many things contribute our side [TS]

00:37:58   was talked about in the past one of the [TS]

00:38:00   really big contributors surprisingly [TS]

00:38:01   which people don't think about is stress [TS]

00:38:04   as and i'm not sure how much type in you [TS]

00:38:07   did Marco on that day but i would wager [TS]

00:38:09   that it's probably not much more typing [TS]

00:38:11   that you did on a really productive [TS]

00:38:12   coding day but if you are doing that [TS]

00:38:14   typing frantically while stressed it [TS]

00:38:18   makes a big difference in terms of how [TS]

00:38:21   much information and then problems you [TS]

00:38:22   get so we you because you'll be typing [TS]

00:38:24   harder because you'll be more prone to [TS]

00:38:26   you know whatever stress hormones are [TS]

00:38:28   going through some more prone to [TS]

00:38:29   inflammation being working when under [TS]

00:38:32   pressure when you are stressed huge [TS]

00:38:34   contributor to [TS]

00:38:36   in addition to the typical things we [TS]

00:38:37   talked about like how many keystrokes [TS]

00:38:38   did you type how long have you been [TS]

00:38:39   using the computer how many breaks if [TS]

00:38:41   you're taking us all those happen when [TS]

00:38:42   you're stressed you tend to not take [TS]

00:38:43   breaks everything like that but merely [TS]

00:38:45   be active being stressed depending on [TS]

00:38:47   your type of RS I can be a huge [TS]

00:38:49   contributing factor and I've always been [TS]

00:38:51   aware of that and the year since my [TS]

00:38:54   worst flare-ups that like sometimes you [TS]

00:38:56   just have to chill out like you can [TS]

00:38:57   continue to work productively and take [TS]

00:38:59   breaks but while you're working you find [TS]

00:39:00   yourself like tensing up and all but you [TS]

00:39:03   know just all the muscles in your body [TS]

00:39:04   telling that is terrible for most kinds [TS]

00:39:06   of RSI yeah i mean and that was totally [TS]

00:39:08   the case yesterday and today and and i [TS]

00:39:11   usually don't feel that and that's I [TS]

00:39:14   think you're right i mean that's that's [TS]

00:39:16   obviously very related to things like [TS]

00:39:17   back pain very very related and so I've [TS]

00:39:21   certainly seen that before [TS]

00:39:23   also I'm pretty sure I'm getting sick [TS]

00:39:24   and whenever i'm getting sick the day or [TS]

00:39:26   two beforehand coffee stops working and [TS]

00:39:29   I start getting our site ain't getting [TS]

00:39:32   stops working [TS]

00:39:33   does that mean it means like I no longer [TS]

00:39:35   get like the the energy boost the lady [TS]

00:39:37   awakeness boost from the caffeine [TS]

00:39:38   yeah but you can quit anytime don't [TS]

00:39:40   worry what if when you had mentioned [TS]

00:39:43   earlier that you were thinking about [TS]

00:39:46   when you said it kind of jokingly but [TS]

00:39:48   you said you were thinking about [TS]

00:39:49   switching entirely to iCloud I haven't [TS]

00:39:53   kept up with some of them the more late [TS]

00:39:55   breaking changes to iCloud in the last [TS]

00:39:57   year or 2i I know that there's some [TS]

00:40:00   amount of support for getting to user [TS]

00:40:02   data from the web [TS]

00:40:04   have you looked deeply or even slightly [TS]

00:40:06   deeply into that to see like could you [TS]

00:40:08   still do the overcast web app with just [TS]

00:40:10   iCloud I know about as much as bad as [TS]

00:40:13   what you just said but she's okay i know [TS]

00:40:15   there's some like they call it a [TS]

00:40:18   JavaScript interface but basically it's [TS]

00:40:20   whatever your best you could do from [TS]

00:40:21   server to i think yeah so they're there [TS]

00:40:24   are ways that you can use cloudkit from [TS]

00:40:27   the from something that's not an apple [TS]

00:40:29   device [TS]

00:40:30   I don't know anything more about it than [TS]

00:40:31   that and obviously if I decided to do [TS]

00:40:33   something like this [TS]

00:40:34   the first thing I would do would be to [TS]

00:40:35   look into that and you know what I'm [TS]

00:40:37   dealing with here [TS]

00:40:38   sure trade your personal stress for the [TS]

00:40:40   impotent rage of apples bugs that you [TS]

00:40:42   can't fix that you can't get them to [TS]

00:40:43   take seriously right but you know like [TS]

00:40:46   it every level whenever you whenever you [TS]

00:40:48   like [TS]

00:40:49   outsource some amount of your apps [TS]

00:40:53   functionality to some kind of [TS]

00:40:54   third-party service like that when [TS]

00:40:56   things break it's not usually your fault [TS]

00:41:00   it is your problem but there's often [TS]

00:41:03   nothing you can do about it like [TS]

00:41:04   oftentimes the solution is just well I [TS]

00:41:07   guess we have to wait a few days for [TS]

00:41:09   this to get better or we have to wait an [TS]

00:41:10   hour for this thing to be up again or [TS]

00:41:13   whatever if it becomes longer than that [TS]

00:41:15   if it's like we have to wait a few years [TS]

00:41:17   for this to get better [TS]

00:41:18   that becomes a bigger problem for you [TS]

00:41:20   you know then that's kind of on you that [TS]

00:41:22   you should you move to something else [TS]

00:41:23   but something like like you know I i [TS]

00:41:27   mentioned hosted at linode I don't [TS]

00:41:29   manage their switches and if they have a [TS]

00:41:32   network outage for like five minutes [TS]

00:41:34   nothing to do about it so it's kind of [TS]

00:41:36   freeing in that way because it's like [TS]

00:41:37   well i just have to sit back and wait [TS]

00:41:39   for this to get fixed and you know maybe [TS]

00:41:41   if it goes on for a while I might file a [TS]

00:41:43   ticket just to make sure they're really [TS]

00:41:44   know about it but in every instance they [TS]

00:41:46   already did not [TS]

00:41:46   got it and it gets fixed a few minutes [TS]

00:41:48   later so it's you know nothing of a [TS]

00:41:52   problem like this is like that you know [TS]

00:41:53   it's like the web hosting continue on [TS]

00:41:55   like you as you you can move up the the [TS]

00:41:58   hierarchy of like web hosting [TS]

00:41:59   abstractions and each one you go up you [TS]

00:42:02   know you get more things that are taken [TS]

00:42:03   out of your hands and then again they [TS]

00:42:05   are still your problem but you know it's [TS]

00:42:08   good that you're pretty if your [TS]

00:42:09   customers have your appt stop working [TS]

00:42:11   your service stopped working [TS]

00:42:12   they don't care if your web host is [TS]

00:42:15   having a temporary switch outage they [TS]

00:42:17   will go to you and they will say you are [TS]

00:42:19   down you are broken one star useless i [TS]

00:42:21   want my money back plus damages etc you [TS]

00:42:24   know them and the more you go up the [TS]

00:42:25   stack you are saving yourself work but [TS]

00:42:26   you're also adding more and more things [TS]

00:42:28   to the giant list of things that are out [TS]

00:42:31   of your control and again it's a balance [TS]

00:42:34   for the most part that is freeing when [TS]

00:42:37   you do that but it does become a problem [TS]

00:42:39   if the service you're on just starts to [TS]

00:42:42   suck it [TS]

00:42:43   it's not just a temporary outage but if [TS]

00:42:45   they just take a turn or quality slips [TS]

00:42:48   or they could decide to get acquiring [TS]

00:42:50   and shut down the service that you were [TS]

00:42:52   using or something like that like that [TS]

00:42:54   because your problem i try to minimize [TS]

00:42:55   ways in which things like that can be a [TS]

00:42:58   problem for me by doing things like you [TS]

00:43:00   know i'm just using standard Linux toast [TS]

00:43:02   my stuff and trying on VPS is but I'm [TS]

00:43:05   not doing anything fancy with the VPS is [TS]

00:43:06   and I could go to any other VPS or [TS]

00:43:08   dedicated server host and run the exact [TS]

00:43:11   same sort stack and with the exact same [TS]

00:43:12   servers and no changes really just like [TS]

00:43:14   moving servers over which is not that [TS]

00:43:16   big of a deal i keep things in such a [TS]

00:43:18   way that I i try to abstract away as [TS]

00:43:20   much as i can so i don't have to worry [TS]

00:43:21   about the basics of things like power [TS]

00:43:23   connectivity failed discs stuff like [TS]

00:43:26   that but i'm not going to go all the way [TS]

00:43:29   to a service like App Engine or heroku [TS]

00:43:31   or there or even amazon web services [TS]

00:43:33   honestly where things are so abstracted [TS]

00:43:37   a way that it's hard to replace for core [TS]

00:43:39   functionality i do you like s3 for [TS]

00:43:41   storing files and stuff but that's [TS]

00:43:44   easier to swap out of it sucks that like [TS]

00:43:46   oh my entire app is written based on the [TS]

00:43:48   assumption of these samples services [TS]

00:43:50   that i can't actually replicate anywhere [TS]

00:43:52   else but this provider [TS]

00:43:53   I feel like those companies you list all [TS]

00:43:55   be at least more superficially [TS]

00:43:58   responsive to your kids [TS]

00:43:59   turns an apple because all those things [TS]

00:44:01   like oh I've been i was using this web [TS]

00:44:03   servers are using a roku and my thing is [TS]

00:44:05   broken [TS]

00:44:06   there's some person you can contact who [TS]

00:44:09   will get back to you about whatever your [TS]

00:44:11   problem is maybe they won't solve it [TS]

00:44:12   immediately or whatever but historically [TS]

00:44:14   speaking apple has not been up to the [TS]

00:44:17   standards of the other sort of [TS]

00:44:18   infrastructure service provider things [TS]

00:44:22   in terms of all you know there's totally [TS]

00:44:23   a support mechanism and a place where [TS]

00:44:26   you can report problems and expect the [TS]

00:44:27   speedy response and report bugs and [TS]

00:44:29   issues and get them resolved with Apple [TS]

00:44:33   I mean I'm just thinking like the [TS]

00:44:34   football the poor gamecenter developers [TS]

00:44:36   and like I mean surely they are trying [TS]

00:44:38   every possible mechanism to complain to [TS]

00:44:40   apple about their issues the game center [TS]

00:44:42   that are causing their applications to [TS]

00:44:43   hang or do weird things or have bugs and [TS]

00:44:46   not only they're not getting like a [TS]

00:44:48   ticket reply in five minutes and a [TS]

00:44:50   response in 24 hours or whatever but [TS]

00:44:51   like these are just problems that are [TS]

00:44:53   festering for years on end and i have no [TS]

00:44:55   idea there's any official channel [TS]

00:44:57   contact going back and forth between [TS]

00:44:59   them but anyway Apple together I I was [TS]

00:45:01   measuring out not so much the did you [TS]

00:45:03   wouldn't want to use one of these [TS]

00:45:04   services but that Apple specifically [TS]

00:45:06   they can highlight cloudkit and icloud [TS]

00:45:07   remember how good they maybe it just [TS]

00:45:09   doesn't seem like Apple set up to be the [TS]

00:45:12   type of service provider like Amazon Web [TS]

00:45:15   Services a heroic or whatever where [TS]

00:45:16   those are entire businesses that are [TS]

00:45:18   about your developer we provide a [TS]

00:45:20   service you can use our services and if [TS]

00:45:21   you have problems with them [TS]

00:45:23   here's what you do and you can file bugs [TS]

00:45:24   and track those bugs with system then [TS]

00:45:26   again number perfectly have problems and [TS]

00:45:28   you know all the trails you just talked [TS]

00:45:29   about but apple just seems so far from [TS]

00:45:32   from having even the basic sort of like [TS]

00:45:35   table stakes to be a reliable [TS]

00:45:39   third-party web services provider like [TS]

00:45:42   Microsoft Azure or whatever even though [TS]

00:45:44   they may have the tech stuff I feel like [TS]

00:45:46   they don't have the discipline of [TS]

00:45:48   whatever you call that the surrounding [TS]

00:45:50   infrastructure behind the tech the [TS]

00:45:52   people the service the tracking the [TS]

00:45:54   transparency all the things that you [TS]

00:45:55   would want in any service like that [TS]

00:45:57   yeah i mean the reason that i would [TS]

00:45:59   consider iCloud first of all like iCloud [TS]

00:46:03   is an umbrella term that covers lots of [TS]

00:46:05   different things and the things that are [TS]

00:46:06   under it [TS]

00:46:07   oftentimes are not related and have [TS]

00:46:09   vastly different [TS]

00:46:11   reliabilities and reputations and and [TS]

00:46:14   kind of general suit abilities for [TS]

00:46:16   certain tasks cloudkit which is which is [TS]

00:46:19   what I would be moving to if I did that [TS]

00:46:21   it you know III don't know a lot of big [TS]

00:46:25   users of it but the the the bit i've [TS]

00:46:28   heard so far is that it is somewhat [TS]

00:46:31   limited but what it does it does very [TS]

00:46:33   well and it tends to work and i don't i [TS]

00:46:35   don't think a lot of people that i know [TS]

00:46:37   having trouble having trouble without [TS]

00:46:38   get the way they did with things like [TS]

00:46:40   iCloud core data sync was always a [TS]

00:46:42   disaster or even things like the [TS]

00:46:43   key-value store sometimes get messed up [TS]

00:46:45   a little bit or something like that but [TS]

00:46:46   for the most part people think cloudkit [TS]

00:46:50   is pretty good for what it does as far [TS]

00:46:52   as i know yes one of the better [TS]

00:46:54   technologies they released but that like [TS]

00:46:56   the question is not nothing is perfect [TS]

00:46:57   the question is if something goes wrong [TS]

00:46:58   cloud cover your suspicious or you think [TS]

00:47:00   like you don't have visibility into [TS]

00:47:02   something something you can't tell [TS]

00:47:03   whether it's your problem or their [TS]

00:47:04   problem or its down for a while you're [TS]

00:47:06   requesting slow [TS]

00:47:07   do you have any hope of getting that [TS]

00:47:08   result or is it just like well I just [TS]

00:47:10   sit here and wait importantly and either [TS]

00:47:12   improves or it doesn't [TS]

00:47:13   right and there's all sorts of little [TS]

00:47:15   things that would that would be [TS]

00:47:16   problematic with cloudkit as well you [TS]

00:47:18   know I mean you're totally right that [TS]

00:47:20   like generally speaking the kind of [TS]

00:47:22   relationship that Apple has with the [TS]

00:47:24   public with developers is in many ways [TS]

00:47:27   completely the opposite kind of approach [TS]

00:47:30   and attitude and openness that you then [TS]

00:47:32   within what you want from your web [TS]

00:47:34   services provider you know that's it's [TS]

00:47:36   really especially the developer it is [TS]

00:47:38   really like you want companies that are [TS]

00:47:40   transparent and that that are constantly [TS]

00:47:42   iterating and make things better and [TS]

00:47:44   that have stowed only a hundred percent [TS]

00:47:46   solid reputation for web services and [TS]

00:47:48   and in things like that and an apple [TS]

00:47:50   just isn't isn't those things that's not [TS]

00:47:52   the way they operate cloudkit also bring [TS]

00:47:54   the the second problem of tying your [TS]

00:47:57   overcast data to your devices currently [TS]

00:47:59   logged in iCloud account which is not [TS]

00:48:02   always a safe assumption to make [TS]

00:48:04   so I mean even in my house like we have [TS]

00:48:06   tips ipad pro has the best speakers of [TS]

00:48:09   any type of any iOS device in the house [TS]

00:48:11   because the ipad pro speakers are [TS]

00:48:13   awesome so we have this ipad pro signed [TS]

00:48:16   into my overcast account and in every [TS]

00:48:19   other way it's tips ipad but it's kind [TS]

00:48:21   of my overcast account because we use it [TS]

00:48:23   frequently as a kitchen or tea [TS]

00:48:25   mobile speaker to play podcast out loud [TS]

00:48:27   together if I moved cloudkit then we'd [TS]

00:48:30   have to either sign that entire ipad out [TS]

00:48:33   of iCloud so that it would have so kind [TS]

00:48:36   of my account instead of her account [TS]

00:48:37   even has all of her apps and her email [TS]

00:48:39   like everything else heard the ipad or [TS]

00:48:41   by second ipad which provide the [TS]

00:48:43   solution Apple wants us to do or switch [TS]

00:48:46   to listening to her overcast account for [TS]

00:48:47   anything we listen to that lab which is [TS]

00:48:49   you know kind of clunky solution so you [TS]

00:48:53   know there's there's problems with [TS]

00:48:54   trying to ipod there's also the major [TS]

00:48:56   advantage the whole reason i would [TS]

00:48:57   consider using cloudkit is that right [TS]

00:49:01   now I'm kind of using iCloud key value [TS]

00:49:03   store as a kludge that the right [TS]

00:49:05   pronunciation of clued believe is a [TS]

00:49:08   closure could edit school anyway [TS]

00:49:09   right now i'm using this Kluge of [TS]

00:49:11   key-value store along with a server-side [TS]

00:49:13   saying to check and occasional push [TS]

00:49:15   notifications to try to trigger like a [TS]

00:49:18   somewhat real-time connection kind of [TS]

00:49:21   thing to to sink things quickly to each [TS]

00:49:24   other another way to do that would be to [TS]

00:49:26   have a persistent connection whenever [TS]

00:49:28   the app is running you know kind of like [TS]

00:49:29   kind of like a chat like where you have [TS]

00:49:31   an open socket and you know you can make [TS]

00:49:33   very fast that server can tell you as [TS]

00:49:35   soon as it gets things the main reasons [TS]

00:49:37   I don't do that our way I'm not set up [TS]

00:49:40   for server-side and I could you know I [TS]

00:49:41   could become setup for server-side but [TS]

00:49:43   that's just it's another infrastructure [TS]

00:49:45   of thing i have to set up and maintain [TS]

00:49:46   and and and learn all the ways that [TS]

00:49:48   fails and be the bigger reason is that [TS]

00:49:51   i'm a little concerned about battery [TS]

00:49:53   usage on the device apple maintains one [TS]

00:49:56   of those connections for the entire [TS]

00:49:58   device that's what I cloud use that's [TS]

00:49:59   what push notifications use there's [TS]

00:50:02   already a persistent connection to the [TS]

00:50:04   device that Apple's maintaining for me [TS]

00:50:06   so if i move to my cloud based solution [TS]

00:50:09   i would be using the connection is [TS]

00:50:12   already there so the the battery penalty [TS]

00:50:14   would be either minimal or non-existent [TS]

00:50:17   compared to any other solution [TS]

00:50:19   did you know that for a fact that cloud [TS]

00:50:21   kid uses the an open connection i [TS]

00:50:24   thought it would have been doing on [TS]

00:50:25   demand I'm insured you know s manage [TS]

00:50:27   coalescing of requests only opening the [TS]

00:50:28   connection to whatever but isn't it a [TS]

00:50:30   constantly open and I thought that was [TS]

00:50:31   maybe only for push notifications and [TS]

00:50:33   not for cloud kids [TS]

00:50:34   you know that's that's a detailed I just [TS]

00:50:36   don't know the answer yet i'm an apple [TS]

00:50:38   doesn't talk about it right and there [TS]

00:50:40   are silent push notifications with the [TS]

00:50:43   content available flag that you can that [TS]

00:50:45   I do send the app whenever there's new [TS]

00:50:47   episode when I never capture the [TS]

00:50:49   notification that wasn't a a message [TS]

00:50:51   only push that was a silent content [TS]

00:50:54   available push that woke up the apt to [TS]

00:50:56   tell it [TS]

00:50:56   here's a new episode to download the app [TS]

00:50:59   receives a notification from the server [TS]

00:51:01   checks locally with preferences and [TS]

00:51:03   whether to send that to you while it's [TS]

00:51:05   also accusing it of download and things [TS]

00:51:06   like that and then shows you a local [TS]

00:51:08   notification so i could use those like [TS]

00:51:11   every time the server to change send a [TS]

00:51:13   constable notification to all the other [TS]

00:51:15   devices on account I could do that but [TS]

00:51:17   those notifications are throttled and [TS]

00:51:19   are not guaranteed to be delivered and [TS]

00:51:22   the answer to how many content available [TS]

00:51:25   push notifications can one device [TS]

00:51:26   receives reliably in USA an hour or a [TS]

00:51:29   day that information I don't think is [TS]

00:51:32   widely available and it's probably not [TS]

00:51:34   worth relying upon anyway so there's all [TS]

00:51:37   these little tricks and limitations that [TS]

00:51:39   I was for power management and for you [TS]

00:51:41   know keeping apps kind of from from [TS]

00:51:43   making some clues and taking over the [TS]

00:51:45   whole phone i have to work around all [TS]

00:51:46   those words cloudkit and icloud stuff i [TS]

00:51:48   believe has special privileges and is [TS]

00:51:51   able to operate in i think more special [TS]

00:51:54   ways i think i double-check that but [TS]

00:51:56   that would be the main driving factor to [TS]

00:51:58   use it over you know any other kind of [TS]

00:52:01   system so if it could actually do that [TS]

00:52:03   well and reliably that it might be worth [TS]

00:52:05   tolerating apples potential weirdness [TS]

00:52:08   and being your service provider or use [TS]

00:52:11   Microsoft Azure not worried about this a [TS]

00:52:13   lot of business you want to get the [TS]

00:52:14   advantage of the pretty privileged [TS]

00:52:15   background even doing your bidding for [TS]

00:52:17   you but seems like it would basically be [TS]

00:52:19   more similar to what you have now it's [TS]

00:52:21   your own back-end you make it however [TS]

00:52:22   you want to get your own account system [TS]

00:52:23   do whatever you want with it and [TS]

00:52:25   hopefully Microsoft would be more [TS]

00:52:26   responsive because they're hungry but [TS]

00:52:29   something like that's that's really not [TS]

00:52:31   that much different from what i have now [TS]

00:52:32   like I'm already right now running [TS]

00:52:34   instances of cloud computing resources [TS]

00:52:37   with code that i write doing almost [TS]

00:52:40   everything and managing almost [TS]

00:52:41   everything and like the stuff that that [TS]

00:52:44   something like a sherwood would give me [TS]

00:52:45   things like [TS]

00:52:46   account management and like push [TS]

00:52:49   notifications like that's all easy to me [TS]

00:52:51   like that's that those are all solved [TS]

00:52:53   problems with like a couple hundred [TS]

00:52:55   lines of code that I wrote years ago and [TS]

00:52:58   that still work like those are all [TS]

00:52:59   totally solve problems that's not where [TS]

00:53:01   the difficulty lies [TS]

00:53:02   really the difficulty is in the stuff [TS]

00:53:04   that with any of these providers you [TS]

00:53:07   have to write even with cloudkit [TS]

00:53:09   cloudkit like I called core data tried [TS]

00:53:12   to do the crazy thing of like just give [TS]

00:53:15   us access to your local database I'm [TS]

00:53:17   just gonna make it sink and we're going [TS]

00:53:19   to make that work that could never work [TS]

00:53:21   like things are not things are more [TS]

00:53:22   complicated than that it's not that [TS]

00:53:24   Apple did a bad job of implementing that [TS]

00:53:27   it's at the entire idea was deeply [TS]

00:53:29   flawed from the start that was never [TS]

00:53:30   going to work well [TS]

00:53:31   cloudkit the reason why people like it [TS]

00:53:34   so much better is because designed in [TS]

00:53:36   such a way that it is kind of like a web [TS]

00:53:39   service that you interact with that [TS]

00:53:41   notifies you when changes then you [TS]

00:53:43   locally in the app do things like [TS]

00:53:45   resolving conflicts you can still make [TS]

00:53:47   your own infinite loop yet exactly so [TS]

00:53:49   like you're still riding the hard stuff [TS]

00:53:51   you're just not running the servers but [TS]

00:53:53   like you're still riding all the tricky [TS]

00:53:56   complex sink logic in the app and thats [TS]

00:54:00   true any of these services because sink [TS]

00:54:02   is just hard and it's there really isn't [TS]

00:54:05   a generalized sink library that just [TS]

00:54:07   works for everybody [TS]

00:54:08   like if there was thinking wouldn't be [TS]

00:54:10   hard if you use iCloud if you use iCloud [TS]

00:54:13   cloudkit chance i would imagine there's [TS]

00:54:16   some chance that you would actually not [TS]

00:54:17   have noticed as infinite loop bug for a [TS]

00:54:19   long time [TS]

00:54:20   it's very possible surely they have like [TS]

00:54:22   this you know server capacity like the [TS]

00:54:24   surge server capacity to sort of eat [TS]

00:54:26   that and you know maybe someone would [TS]

00:54:29   have contacted you or maybe your usage [TS]

00:54:31   would have been throttled or you would [TS]

00:54:33   have gone into those weird-ass tricks [TS]

00:54:34   for their like you have a certain number [TS]

00:54:35   of amount of data number of requests and [TS]

00:54:38   if you exceed that like call us or [TS]

00:54:40   whatever here will call you or you know [TS]

00:54:43   when you're not when they're not your [TS]

00:54:44   servers you notice this because you're [TS]

00:54:46   like whoa my servers are dying but [TS]

00:54:48   apples probably wouldn't die but things [TS]

00:54:50   would probably gets lower the payment [TS]

00:54:51   would be like this sort of general [TS]

00:54:53   malaise over overcasting you like I [TS]

00:54:55   wonder what's going on here and I mean [TS]

00:54:57   you [TS]

00:54:57   have access to probably like any query [TS]

00:54:59   the table to see what the max version [TS]

00:55:01   number is all 600 that seems big [TS]

00:55:03   you know so maybe maybe you're on the [TS]

00:55:07   right system uh after all maybe you your [TS]

00:55:10   configure this is the best of all [TS]

00:55:11   possible worlds for you respond to this [TS]

00:55:14   week by audible go to audible.com for [TS]

00:55:16   more than 250,000 audiobooks and spoken [TS]

00:55:19   word audio products at a free 30-day [TS]

00:55:21   trial today at audible.com / ATP if you [TS]

00:55:25   want to listen to it audible has it you [TS]

00:55:27   can listen to audiobooks from virtually [TS]

00:55:28   every genre anytime anywhere on phones [TS]

00:55:31   tablets computers ipod you still have an [TS]

00:55:34   ipod even if you happen to have a kindle [TS]

00:55:36   has a headphone jack a lot of the other [TS]

00:55:38   models do those can also play audio [TS]

00:55:40   books from audible audio books are great [TS]

00:55:42   for flights long road trips even your [TS]

00:55:45   daily commute and you might think even [TS]

00:55:46   have time to read books i think that a [TS]

00:55:48   lot but you'd be surprised how many [TS]

00:55:50   audio books you can hear each year even [TS]

00:55:52   if you only listen to and from work [TS]

00:55:54   every day because that all adds up [TS]

00:55:56   audiobooks bring books told life many of [TS]

00:55:58   them are read by the author's themselves [TS]

00:55:59   an extra dimension to the text you can [TS]

00:56:02   take risks and try new authors and [TS]

00:56:04   dramas without regret because audible [TS]

00:56:06   offers their great listen guarantee if [TS]

00:56:08   you start an audiobook and don't like it [TS]

00:56:10   you can exchange it for another one for [TS]

00:56:12   free there's no risk so you can see and [TS]

00:56:15   listen for yourself when you begin your [TS]

00:56:17   free 30-day trial your first audio book [TS]

00:56:19   for free and there's no stress or [TS]

00:56:21   obligation you can cancel your [TS]

00:56:23   membership at anytime with more than [TS]

00:56:25   250,000 audiobooks and spoken word audio [TS]

00:56:28   products you will find what you're [TS]

00:56:29   looking for with audible get a free [TS]

00:56:31   30-day trial today by signing up at [TS]

00:56:34   audible.com / ATP that's audible.com / [TS]

00:56:38   ATP thanks to audible for sponsoring our [TS]

00:56:41   show so we should talk quickly about [TS]

00:56:46   quitter which is your new mac app and we [TS]

00:56:50   have to say too much about it because I [TS]

00:56:51   presume you're going to save a lot of [TS]

00:56:52   this from to the radar but I feel like [TS]

00:56:55   we should at least mention it and [TS]

00:56:56   hopefully you had a least a couple [TS]

00:56:58   things to say or at least recap what is [TS]

00:57:00   so basically a few months back i I've [TS]

00:57:03   read this blog post called automatic [TS]

00:57:04   social discipline my idea was [TS]

00:57:08   I've been struggling over the last few [TS]

00:57:09   years to try to balance the time I spend [TS]

00:57:12   on Twitter and other social like [TS]

00:57:16   distractions from the time I spend [TS]

00:57:18   working and because of the nature of [TS]

00:57:21   what I do and the way I've chosen to go [TS]

00:57:23   about my career and and how to promote [TS]

00:57:26   my stuff I do kind of have to use [TS]

00:57:30   Twitter and social tools on a [TS]

00:57:32   semi-regular basis and even with [TS]

00:57:35   something simple like when we start we [TS]

00:57:37   start the live broadcast I tweet from [TS]

00:57:38   art from the ATP account [TS]

00:57:40   we're live now and we give a link and [TS]

00:57:42   you know when I when I make new blog [TS]

00:57:44   post i also tweet about them to promote [TS]

00:57:46   them because that's where a lot of [TS]

00:57:48   traffic coming from these days i have [TS]

00:57:50   tried various times to just not have [TS]

00:57:52   twitter apps installed it all on my on [TS]

00:57:55   my desktop it ends up just not working i [TS]

00:57:58   tried i can only use it on my phone or [TS]

00:58:00   only using it like on a laptop that i [TS]

00:58:02   keep you know off to the side that is my [TS]

00:58:04   main computer i tried all sorts of [TS]

00:58:06   stupid things like that and they never [TS]

00:58:08   stick because there because the reality [TS]

00:58:10   is i do have to use twitter on a [TS]

00:58:13   semi-regular basis for my job as well as [TS]

00:58:16   for enjoyment in life by far the most [TS]

00:58:19   efficient way for me to use twitter is [TS]

00:58:22   using Tweetbot on the mac by far [TS]

00:58:25   like I i I'm so fast that i can go [TS]

00:58:27   through so much it's the max so [TS]

00:58:28   everything's kind of like this [TS]

00:58:29   multitasking quick environment is very [TS]

00:58:30   very efficient with that [TS]

00:58:32   so if i'm going to be using Twitter for [TS]

00:58:34   work it should be on the mac and it [TS]

00:58:36   should be on my primary Mac that's just [TS]

00:58:38   how it works for me it most efficiently [TS]

00:58:40   the question is how do I manage that [TS]

00:58:43   without spending so much time on Twitter [TS]

00:58:45   all the time not ever getting any work [TS]

00:58:47   done and the answer of course is [TS]

00:58:49   self-control but i don't have enough of [TS]

00:58:51   that when it comes to this so we have to [TS]

00:58:53   start building access tools like four to [TS]

00:58:55   solve many people self-control issues [TS]

00:58:56   and other things like this is what we do [TS]

00:58:58   right this is we try to have her and try [TS]

00:58:59   to build self-control replacement tools [TS]

00:59:01   for this assistance tools and and I [TS]

00:59:04   started seeing this was a problem with [TS]

00:59:06   twitter because i use the app called [TS]

00:59:09   rescue time which is basically a like [TS]

00:59:12   appt time tracking app it's in your [TS]

00:59:14   menubar and it's either web service was [TS]

00:59:17   a little bit creepy little little [TS]

00:59:19   worried about that but it's your menu [TS]

00:59:20   bar and watch [TS]

00:59:21   choose what apps you're using and at [TS]

00:59:23   times it and it categorizes things like [TS]

00:59:26   you know work for this entertainment vs [TS]

00:59:28   whatever and then every week it emails [TS]

00:59:30   you a report saying this week you worked [TS]

00:59:33   on your computer's 4x hours and you [TS]

00:59:37   spent six hours in Xcode 5 hours and [TS]

00:59:39   logic for hours and adobe audition and [TS]

00:59:42   then like every week I was also seeing [TS]

00:59:43   in four hours in tweet pot and who [TS]

00:59:47   that's a lot of time spent sweet pot it [TS]

00:59:50   started to add up over about a year I'm [TS]

00:59:52   like you know this is really not [TS]

00:59:54   comfortable like that I need to do [TS]

00:59:56   something about this because i kept [TS]

00:59:58   thinking I could feel like I want to [TS]

00:59:58   thinking I could feel like I want to [TS]

01:00:00   work better and use my time more [TS]

01:00:01   effectively and get more done and [TS]

01:00:03   everything begins email saying hey [TS]

01:00:06   you're using Twitter you use twitter for [TS]

01:00:07   six hours this week [TS]

01:00:08   oh my god and then slap came around and [TS]

01:00:11   made problem even worse because now [TS]

01:00:13   slack slack is even worse for blending [TS]

01:00:16   work and distraction because it's made [TS]

01:00:19   for work communication it and it's so [TS]

01:00:22   easy to just become like a constant [TS]

01:00:24   drain of your attention and just [TS]

01:00:27   constant like peppering all day of [TS]

01:00:30   little tiny distractions [TS]

01:00:31   anyway this is all I started seeing [TS]

01:00:33   slack you know bubble up in the list as [TS]

01:00:35   well and then all the sudden spending [TS]

01:00:36   like six hours a day on slack and [TS]

01:00:39   Twitter combined not a day six hours a [TS]

01:00:41   week on like second Twitter and and it [TS]

01:00:43   just it started becoming so many hours [TS]

01:00:45   and just like my god this is like this [TS]

01:00:47   is eating into all my productivity six [TS]

01:00:49   hours eight hours [TS]

01:00:50   this is this is terrible i have to think [TS]

01:00:52   about this is as if you want to go with [TS]

01:00:54   this this post called automatic [TS]

01:00:55   specialist but i did was i I basically [TS]

01:00:57   get wrote an apple script is scheduled [TS]

01:00:59   it with launch d every 10 minutes it [TS]

01:01:02   would run it would just check is [TS]

01:01:05   Tweetbot the active app right this [TS]

01:01:07   second [TS]

01:01:08   if not quit the app and same thing with [TS]

01:01:10   slack slack is the active app right now [TS]

01:01:13   keep it otherwise kill it and that ended [TS]

01:01:15   up being way too aggressive for slack [TS]

01:01:17   because i do use slack oftentimes for [TS]

01:01:19   work purposes in fact the majority of [TS]

01:01:21   the time using seconds for work purposes [TS]

01:01:23   actually so that like I I couldn't have [TS]

01:01:26   slack be just quick constantly like [TS]

01:01:28   because the way this work to it's like [TS]

01:01:30   it was just checking every 10 minutes [TS]

01:01:32   and saying are you active right now if [TS]

01:01:34   not quit so oftentimes you'd be you know [TS]

01:01:37   click on slack type something switched [TS]

01:01:39   to another window and two seconds later [TS]

01:01:41   slide disappears typically ok this is [TS]

01:01:45   kind of unfortunate but same thing you [TS]

01:01:47   know Twitter everything's ate it was [TS]

01:01:49   just it was a little bit too dumb of a [TS]

01:01:51   solution recently I'm i started making a [TS]

01:01:54   mac app called Twitter and it's in the [TS]

01:01:58   menu bar and because a native app has a [TS]

01:02:00   way better way to do this rather than [TS]

01:02:02   just like constantly pulling to see like [TS]

01:02:05   what's the active app right now is that [TS]

01:02:06   this quit you can actually observe the [TS]

01:02:09   current workspace and you can eat [TS]

01:02:12   there's no polling [TS]

01:02:13   involved you get notified when the [TS]

01:02:15   active window or the application changes [TS]

01:02:18   and so that now I'm able to do things [TS]

01:02:20   way more efficiently and way smarter or [TS]

01:02:23   now i can i can have it [TS]

01:02:25   watch for changes and for the list of [TS]

01:02:27   apps that you want to quit after certain [TS]

01:02:29   time intervals it can quit them [TS]

01:02:32   not every 10 minutes checking to see if [TS]

01:02:33   they're running and including [TS]

01:02:34   immediately but it can start the timer [TS]

01:02:37   when you click away from the app and [TS]

01:02:40   then after a certain time where you [TS]

01:02:41   don't click back to the app then it can [TS]

01:02:44   fire the timer and quit them or also [TS]

01:02:46   building out the option to hide them for [TS]

01:02:47   slack because for me it's more efficient [TS]

01:02:49   for the amount of slack so basically the [TS]

01:02:52   mac app version of this is way better [TS]

01:02:54   it also isn't an apple script that has [TS]

01:02:56   to have a launch d command-line process [TS]

01:02:59   to register and register it so it's also [TS]

01:03:01   a lot more friendly for other people to [TS]

01:03:04   use and for me to distribute as a thing [TS]

01:03:05   people use the effect of running this [TS]

01:03:08   app is it really does work it for me i [TS]

01:03:11   have because I've been measuring the [TS]

01:03:13   rescue time like i've been i've been [TS]

01:03:14   using first that script and then a few [TS]

01:03:16   weeks ago switching to this app using [TS]

01:03:18   this for a while now and i have seen a [TS]

01:03:21   reliable drop in my usage hours as [TS]

01:03:25   reported rescuetime of of these social [TS]

01:03:27   apps that I'm i keep forcibly quitting [TS]

01:03:29   it also has the the interesting effect [TS]

01:03:31   we had like it just makes Twitter's just [TS]

01:03:34   seem unreliable like it's the effect is [TS]

01:03:36   basically it seems like tweet budget [TS]

01:03:38   scratches every few minutes so it kind [TS]

01:03:40   of keeps it a little bit and check for [TS]

01:03:42   me it's not this thing that's always [TS]

01:03:43   there like there's never there's not [TS]

01:03:45   always a new thing could be looking at [TS]

01:03:46   also critically I said it so that these [TS]

01:03:49   apps are not in my doc you're not [TS]

01:03:51   running so that when they get force quit [TS]

01:03:54   they're just gone there they're out of [TS]

01:03:55   sight out of mind like you have to then [TS]

01:03:57   explicitly think oh I want to go check [TS]

01:03:59   twitter now and so what I'm able to do [TS]

01:04:02   not only has has a total amount of time [TS]

01:04:05   spent in these apps dropped noticeably [TS]

01:04:06   probably by at least fifty percent if I [TS]

01:04:09   can guess but i'm also finding that I'm [TS]

01:04:12   now much more often having long [TS]

01:04:15   productive spans because that was where [TS]

01:04:17   where these apps really hurt is in the [TS]

01:04:19   that like constant peppering of new [TS]

01:04:21   stuff coming in every every [TS]

01:04:23   minute every 30 seconds or something new [TS]

01:04:25   to look at you constantly context [TS]

01:04:26   switching back and forth both you know [TS]

01:04:28   technically and mentally or context [TS]

01:04:30   switching and that to me is just [TS]

01:04:32   district destroys any kind of meaningful [TS]

01:04:35   productivity i'm having on things like [TS]

01:04:37   coding or editing the podcast or writing [TS]

01:04:40   these things that just like I was having [TS]

01:04:42   such a hard time staying focused on my [TS]

01:04:44   work when these things just kept coming [TS]

01:04:46   in on like a back our windows just [TS]

01:04:48   always off to the side look for [TS]

01:04:49   something new to read not reply dude [TS]

01:04:51   it's like things were being funny [TS]

01:04:52   whatever [TS]

01:04:53   now these apps are so frequently just [TS]

01:04:56   removed from view that I'm able to have [TS]

01:05:00   these long productive spans where I can [TS]

01:05:03   like code for three hours straight for [TS]

01:05:05   our straight i can write an entire blog [TS]

01:05:07   post and then open up Twitter after our [TS]

01:05:10   publish it to go promote it it just it [TS]

01:05:12   really has changed the way I work a lot [TS]

01:05:15   and it also gave me an excuse to learn [TS]

01:05:19   how to write stuff for the Mac because I [TS]

01:05:21   really i've had a few little like you [TS]

01:05:24   know apps for myself or toy apps or like [TS]

01:05:26   you know kind of half-butted apps that [TS]

01:05:29   were not all releasable but for the most [TS]

01:05:31   part I really don't know how to make mac [TS]

01:05:32   software because i don't have to make [TS]

01:05:34   good mac software should say hey and so [TS]

01:05:37   this was kind of a nice interim I've [TS]

01:05:39   been wanting to learn it for a while and [TS]

01:05:41   this is kind of a nice intro to to start [TS]

01:05:44   that it's not in the app store because [TS]

01:05:46   it can't be it can't be sandboxes [TS]

01:05:47   sandbox apps can't quit other apps and [TS]

01:05:50   it's fine just disturbing it's free it's [TS]

01:05:51   just a zip file you look at my website [TS]

01:05:52   it's kind of amazing to distribute [TS]

01:05:55   software this way for somebody who's [TS]

01:05:56   only ever really professionally work in [TS]

01:05:58   the app store when we talked about this [TS]

01:05:59   a few weeks back on the show I got the [TS]

01:06:01   impression that pretty much nobody [TS]

01:06:04   wanted this except me which is not [TS]

01:06:06   unusual for things i make by the way I [TS]

01:06:08   make all sorts of crazy stuff for myself [TS]

01:06:10   that nobody else would ever want this I [TS]

01:06:13   really thought was one of those things [TS]

01:06:14   but it ends up i released it and it's [TS]

01:06:17   gotten over 25,000 downloads and the end [TS]

01:06:21   it's free i'm making off of it at least [TS]

01:06:22   not yet who knows if I ever will but a [TS]

01:06:24   lot of people at least want to try this [TS]

01:06:27   and that's pretty cool i don't think it [TS]

01:06:30   will ever become anything big and if I [TS]

01:06:32   if I wanted to give it all my time maybe [TS]

01:06:34   I could basically make it you know [TS]

01:06:35   rescuetime replacement or something [TS]

01:06:37   that but I don't think it's worth quite [TS]

01:06:40   that much but it is really cool to just [TS]

01:06:42   kind of see the other side's to to see [TS]

01:06:45   what it's like having a mac app to see [TS]

01:06:47   what Mac programming is like to a very [TS]

01:06:48   small extent and to distribute apps [TS]

01:06:51   directly that's kind of cool and i just [TS]

01:06:53   am really happy that it works that I've [TS]

01:06:55   actually solved this problem i had and [TS]

01:06:58   you know i'm not perfect yet by any [TS]

01:06:59   means but this is by far the most [TS]

01:07:02   effective method that I've come up with [TS]

01:07:05   yet for maintaining a healthy balance of [TS]

01:07:08   distracting apps vs getting work done [TS]

01:07:11   the app has two big things going for one [TS]

01:07:13   free everyone loves fre right and second [TS]

01:07:16   got the same thing going forward that [TS]

01:07:17   like self-help books have like everyone [TS]

01:07:19   is hungry feels the thing that you're [TS]

01:07:21   talking about just like boy I wish I [TS]

01:07:22   could be more productive and I was less [TS]

01:07:24   distracted or whatever and like you said [TS]

01:07:26   what want to just not be distracted well [TS]

01:07:28   you know people need people want tools [TS]

01:07:30   to help them with others like I've been [TS]

01:07:31   trying to do it with just sort of [TS]

01:07:33   willpower alone are trying to change my [TS]

01:07:35   habits or turn our leader and has been [TS]

01:07:37   working is there something I can do is [TS]

01:07:38   there some system i can employ or better [TS]

01:07:41   yet product i can buy or beg still [TS]

01:07:44   product i can get for free that will [TS]

01:07:46   help me along this and so yeah who [TS]

01:07:49   doesn't like it [TS]

01:07:50   who wouldn't download this app if people [TS]

01:07:52   know you and I know you write software [TS]

01:07:53   and everybody has that feeling that are [TS]

01:07:55   particularly productive and you offer [TS]

01:07:58   download for free click on it there you [TS]

01:07:59   go you got it that offers a way to [TS]

01:08:03   potentially help you are productive i [TS]

01:08:04   bet a lot of people can track how many [TS]

01:08:05   people find it useful and stick with it [TS]

01:08:08   i don't know if you have any statistics [TS]

01:08:10   on that but that is a like like a lot of [TS]

01:08:12   self-help things some systems work for [TS]

01:08:14   some people sometimes they don't work [TS]

01:08:16   brother people who knows some since it's [TS]

01:08:18   free i don't think you really care what [TS]

01:08:20   the other but yeah like that I feel like [TS]

01:08:21   the only way you can really turn this [TS]

01:08:22   into a serious endeavor is to basically [TS]

01:08:25   be better rescue time and I were you [TS]

01:08:28   before you do that you probably talked [TS]

01:08:29   to rescue some people to ask out their [TS]

01:08:32   businesses going before you go and try [TS]

01:08:33   to take it all because it could be that [TS]

01:08:35   if you totally replace rescue time in [TS]

01:08:37   the in the market you would still make [TS]

01:08:39   no money because it's not a big market [TS]

01:08:40   knows having the money thing is an [TS]

01:08:43   interesting question i mean III don't [TS]

01:08:45   know what it's like to sell mac software [TS]

01:08:47   i'm still not doing that so I don't know [TS]

01:08:50   what the market [TS]

01:08:51   is I'm sure like any kind of software it [TS]

01:08:53   probably depends a lot on what exactly [TS]

01:08:55   you're selling I I have no idea [TS]

01:08:57   rescue time I've haven't actually paid [TS]

01:08:59   for their business model I is I think [TS]

01:09:02   some kind of like premium service or [TS]

01:09:03   something I don't know i've been using [TS]

01:09:05   it for years and never give them a dime [TS]

01:09:07   so whatever the business model is does [TS]

01:09:09   not include me in it so maybe that's the [TS]

01:09:11   problem i don't know i live not going to [TS]

01:09:13   know what the money market is like on [TS]

01:09:16   mac stuff unless I actually tried and I [TS]

01:09:19   don't know if I'm ready to do that yet [TS]

01:09:21   or what i would do that with necessarily [TS]

01:09:23   but i do think it's interesting to [TS]

01:09:25   consider and for whatever it's worth i [TS]

01:09:28   don't i don't have like analytics [TS]

01:09:30   running in the app but the app does [TS]

01:09:32   include sparkle to check my server for [TS]

01:09:34   updates which is the thing you have to [TS]

01:09:35   worry about how does your app update [TS]

01:09:37   itself when you're outside of the mac [TS]

01:09:39   app store and so I have checked while [TS]

01:09:43   you were talking there at this moment i [TS]

01:09:44   was listening also don't work but I [TS]

01:09:46   checked a secret talking and at this [TS]

01:09:48   moment I have 27,000 download the zip [TS]

01:09:50   file and 2500 IPS that have been [TS]

01:09:55   checking the auto-update xml file so [TS]

01:09:58   roughly a ten percent rate of people who [TS]

01:10:00   are actually like running this app after [TS]

01:10:03   downloading it which i think is actually [TS]

01:10:04   pretty good [TS]

01:10:06   I mean you know that that's that's what [TS]

01:10:07   I would this roughly one would expect [TS]

01:10:08   especially since you don't have one of [TS]

01:10:10   those little disk images that opens that [TS]

01:10:12   shows your app icon and arrow drawn the [TS]

01:10:14   the window back showing it dragging into [TS]

01:10:16   it is something to slash applications [TS]

01:10:19   I mean you you laugh at that but like [TS]

01:10:20   the mac one of the advantages of the mac [TS]

01:10:22   app store is that you press a button in [TS]

01:10:23   the mac app store and in theory and [TS]

01:10:25   application appears in your application [TS]

01:10:27   folder right there's no there's no other [TS]

01:10:29   process whereas but that's also [TS]

01:10:31   mitigated that's mitigated by the [TS]

01:10:33   problem of like a all right click this [TS]

01:10:35   app i bought it [TS]

01:10:36   now where is it how do i launched a [TS]

01:10:38   ground if people can find a lot of [TS]

01:10:40   launch shorty lunch [TS]

01:10:42   what is the thing called launchpad yeah [TS]

01:10:44   it's in your dock by default to a [TS]

01:10:46   regular people and if they just download [TS]

01:10:47   it will be all sparkly and they should [TS]

01:10:49   be able to find it but like what you're [TS]

01:10:51   doing is best case scenario with the [TS]

01:10:52   default settings they don't they click [TS]

01:10:54   years and found safari it automatically [TS]

01:10:56   unzips and what they end up is your [TS]

01:10:58   application icon in their downloads [TS]

01:10:59   folder if they even know how to get to [TS]

01:11:01   your downloads folder is very good [TS]

01:11:03   chance that if they came in five [TS]

01:11:04   your application icon so just double [TS]

01:11:06   click and run it from your downloads [TS]

01:11:08   folder which will probably work fine [TS]

01:11:09   with for your application unless you [TS]

01:11:10   have specific code that says hey it [TS]

01:11:12   looks like you've launched me from the [TS]

01:11:13   Downloads folder would you like me to [TS]

01:11:14   quit and put myself into the application [TS]

01:11:15   folder we launched myself I do because [TS]

01:11:17   you can't figure out how to install apps [TS]

01:11:19   no this is actually an open-source thing [TS]

01:11:21   that's like moved to application folder [TS]

01:11:23   you know you probably seen a lot of apps [TS]

01:11:24   that offer this [TS]

01:11:25   yeah but this is all these are all these [TS]

01:11:28   are all problems that are not part of [TS]

01:11:30   the mac app store experience like that [TS]

01:11:31   the auto updating which sparkled handled [TS]

01:11:33   by the mac app store and the general [TS]

01:11:36   problem of how do i quote unquote [TS]

01:11:38   install a mac applications obviously [TS]

01:11:40   anyone who knows anyone max this is not [TS]

01:11:42   a problem at all but if you ever want to [TS]

01:11:44   go to a broader market which yeah may [TS]

01:11:47   not be like people who read your blog [TS]

01:11:48   and your twitter feed and download your [TS]

01:11:50   application because they know you always [TS]

01:11:51   people probably know how to install [TS]

01:11:52   applications but i can tell you in the [TS]

01:11:54   general public anything that involves [TS]

01:11:55   even an auto expanding zip file or disk [TS]

01:11:58   image or where do you put the [TS]

01:11:59   application and stuff like that it is [TS]

01:12:02   but it is still one of one of the areas [TS]

01:12:04   that I think it's underestimated the [TS]

01:12:08   people don't talk about it much but [TS]

01:12:10   these days but it's one of the huge [TS]

01:12:12   advantages that iOS and iPhone apps and [TS]

01:12:14   app stores have in generals like see app [TS]

01:12:16   I want put finger on screen now happen [TS]

01:12:19   now I have app tap that like that's it [TS]

01:12:22   you know there is no mounting and [TS]

01:12:24   unmounting speaking of the case and USB [TS]

01:12:26   keys disk images there no zip files are [TS]

01:12:29   no expanding there's no dragon thanks to [TS]

01:12:30   folders is none of that stuff the mac [TS]

01:12:33   app store is not as bad as zip files or [TS]

01:12:36   dmg but it's still not as good as the [TS]

01:12:37   iOS App Store and that that simple part [TS]

01:12:39   that simple aspect of like how can we [TS]

01:12:41   get more people to download and use more [TS]

01:12:44   apps like you gotta get rid of the part [TS]

01:12:46   where they have to quote unquote install [TS]

01:12:48   it at all [TS]

01:12:49   yeah i agree i mean that the whole [TS]

01:12:51   system especially with DM geez I mean [TS]

01:12:52   that's like the idea of like just the [TS]

01:12:55   idea of a disk image is it such a geeky [TS]

01:12:59   abstraction that is very confusing and [TS]

01:13:01   tedious to manage for people like it's [TS]

01:13:03   how that ever became the standard I have [TS]

01:13:06   no idea this coverages are awesome [TS]

01:13:09   technologically speaking there [TS]

01:13:10   especially awesome in a classic mac OS [TS]

01:13:12   days because you know i mean that like [TS]

01:13:13   four texts every people disk images are [TS]

01:13:16   an amazing convenience and a great thing [TS]

01:13:17   but as a way as the way to distribute [TS]

01:13:20   software is one of two major ways like [TS]

01:13:22   in the u.s. tener it's like you've got [TS]

01:13:24   your zip file that expands to a nap [TS]

01:13:25   bundle is one way and then you've got [TS]

01:13:27   your disk invention is the other way and [TS]

01:13:29   then the mac app store is off to the [TS]

01:13:30   side there and all both those systems [TS]

01:13:33   have problems for novice users [TS]

01:13:35   yeah it totally does this make you think [TS]

01:13:38   any differently about some of those like [TS]

01:13:40   tools that you've developed for yourself [TS]

01:13:42   that are native mac apps does it make [TS]

01:13:44   you think differently about perhaps [TS]

01:13:45   releasing them for real [TS]

01:13:47   it does yeah but you know I also i saw [TS]

01:13:49   with quitter [TS]

01:13:51   this is a very very simple app and even [TS]

01:13:54   just getting it up to like a minimum [TS]

01:13:56   level of quality that I would want to [TS]

01:13:59   actually release it to the public was [TS]

01:14:02   probably more work than it deserves like [TS]

01:14:06   you know logically business wise guy if [TS]

01:14:08   this was a distraction for me for the [TS]

01:14:10   most part you know it might become a [TS]

01:14:11   business someday but it isn't today and [TS]

01:14:14   should just quit to quit xcode one was [TS]

01:14:16   in the foremost app stop distracting you [TS]

01:14:18   from important slacking Twitter work [TS]

01:14:19   like oh there's totally a distraction [TS]

01:14:25   I mean one of the things is like a few [TS]

01:14:27   hours after I released quitter [TS]

01:14:29   there were a few like kind of [TS]

01:14:32   embarrassing little shortcomings and and [TS]

01:14:33   bugs one of the biggest things was in [TS]

01:14:36   the app I never explained the idea of [TS]

01:14:40   quitting after after X minutes of what [TS]

01:14:42   and a lot of people who downloaded it [TS]

01:14:45   who didn't read the post very closely [TS]

01:14:46   said well I site or after a half-hour [TS]

01:14:48   didn't quit what happened and your app [TS]

01:14:51   is broken once are useless right and so [TS]

01:14:54   so you know there was like this this [TS]

01:14:55   completely embarrassing oversight [TS]

01:14:57   wherein the app it never said anything [TS]

01:14:59   about quitting after what like so the [TS]

01:15:02   answer is quitting after activity which [TS]

01:15:03   is defined as not being the foreground [TS]

01:15:06   application [TS]

01:15:06   yeah yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't guess [TS]

01:15:08   that's what an activity means i would [TS]

01:15:10   get an activity means like the app isn't [TS]

01:15:11   doing everything like hey quit my mail [TS]

01:15:13   out but it was totally download email in [TS]

01:15:15   the background [TS]

01:15:15   nobody does not anymore but it would [TS]

01:15:17   like some people have said like why like [TS]

01:15:18   a quit itunes when it was playing music [TS]

01:15:20   okay well that's yeah that's interesting [TS]

01:15:23   but you know so the a better number of [TS]

01:15:25   like and the other major shortcoming is [TS]

01:15:27   the app itself it didn't [TS]

01:15:29   what about screen or anything really to [TS]

01:15:32   tell you like if you just if you just [TS]

01:15:34   forgot about where you got this app and [TS]

01:15:36   a few months later you saw this app you [TS]

01:15:38   launch it [TS]

01:15:39   you have no idea where it came from how [TS]

01:15:42   to get you know more information about [TS]

01:15:44   it like who made it look there's like [TS]

01:15:47   not there is no information in the app [TS]

01:15:50   about the app there [TS]

01:15:52   the combination of a couple of those [TS]

01:15:53   like minor problem you can also enter [TS]

01:15:56   negative x that was fun [TS]

01:15:57   so they can pick up like you just minor [TS]

01:16:00   polish flaws basically like you know [TS]

01:16:03   areas in which i did not make a [TS]

01:16:04   releasable quality app but released [TS]

01:16:06   anyway I wanted to issue a quick update [TS]

01:16:08   so I fixed all the problems tested it [TS]

01:16:12   with all sorts of unit tests and [TS]

01:16:14   integration tests and parking lot test [TS]

01:16:15   and then I just put the new zip file on [TS]

01:16:19   my server and regenerated the sparkle [TS]

01:16:21   manifest look I have a script to do in [TS]

01:16:23   one command and it was released [TS]

01:16:27   immediately to everyone [TS]

01:16:29   neat huh nobody had to approve it it [TS]

01:16:32   didn't have to sit around and wait four [TS]

01:16:34   days i knew that in the really worst [TS]

01:16:36   case scenario if I really botched things [TS]

01:16:38   in this update i could just issue [TS]

01:16:40   another one [TS]

01:16:41   it was kind of amazing it's okay and of [TS]

01:16:45   course like every mac programmer is like [TS]

01:16:48   a stupid iOS fools like they don't they [TS]

01:16:51   don't know what they're missing and yet [TS]

01:16:52   now I now i know what i'm missing and so [TS]

01:16:55   it's kind of intoxicating and I can see [TS]

01:16:57   where I can see where it could be [TS]

01:16:58   dangerous but the appeal to me of just [TS]

01:17:02   distributing apps directly to people [TS]

01:17:04   without this giant middle man that is [TS]

01:17:07   really opinionated and picky and slow is [TS]

01:17:11   very appealing a number of levels i [TS]

01:17:13   think the experience of doing this first [TS]

01:17:15   of all I you know I have seen like I've [TS]

01:17:17   seen just enough of what it's like to [TS]

01:17:20   develop mac app like with application [TS]

01:17:21   everything just enough of it to know it [TS]

01:17:23   would take me a long time to become an [TS]

01:17:25   expert at it and that it's not easy and [TS]

01:17:27   there's lots of things to think about [TS]

01:17:28   and consider it also showed me that's [TS]

01:17:30   possible and that there is some kind of [TS]

01:17:32   market here i don't know i don't know [TS]

01:17:34   how big the market is for all the stuff [TS]

01:17:35   i want to make but there is a market [TS]

01:17:36   there and the idea of direct access to [TS]

01:17:40   your customers is so [TS]

01:17:43   threshing and foreign to me i am [TS]

01:17:45   definitely going to be more likely to [TS]

01:17:47   try to make more and more maps in the [TS]

01:17:49   future and I not who knows what if [TS]

01:17:52   anything will actually come out of that [TS]

01:17:54   feeling to the public [TS]

01:17:55   you know eventually but i'm certainly [TS]

01:17:57   interested i'm much more likely to try [TS]

01:18:00   it now than I was before [TS]

01:18:01   wait to learn you can charge ninety-nine [TS]

01:18:03   dollars for him yeah but then you have [TS]

01:18:05   to answer support email do you a good [TS]

01:18:08   question i don't know what to think [TS]

01:18:11   outside the box $99 no support if anyone [TS]

01:18:15   can pull it off it's marco our final [TS]

01:18:17   sponsor tonight is hover hover is the [TS]

01:18:20   best way to buy a manager main names go [TS]

01:18:21   to hover com and use promo code egg [TS]

01:18:24   everything for ten percent off your [TS]

01:18:26   first purchase when you have a great [TS]

01:18:28   idea you want a great domain name that's [TS]

01:18:29   catchy and memorable however give you [TS]

01:18:31   exactly what you need to find the [TS]

01:18:32   perfect man for your idea so you can [TS]

01:18:34   start actually working on it [TS]

01:18:36   however gives you easy to use powerful [TS]

01:18:38   tools to buy a management means anybody [TS]

01:18:40   can do it at any skill level and if you [TS]

01:18:42   need a hand there support team is always [TS]

01:18:44   ready in fact they have it you want to [TS]

01:18:46   use it you can call them they have a no [TS]

01:18:47   wait no hold no transfer phone support [TS]

01:18:50   line so that when you call an actual [TS]

01:18:53   human being [TS]

01:18:54   pick-up-the-phone no menus on that an [TS]

01:18:56   actual human being picked up the phone [TS]

01:18:57   and that person can help you there's no [TS]

01:19:00   will transfer you to find different [TS]

01:19:01   departments know going through robot [TS]

01:19:03   menus you just call them and a person [TS]

01:19:05   picks up the way things used to be at [TS]

01:19:06   every business hover is like that today [TS]

01:19:09   so in less than five minutes you can [TS]

01:19:12   find anything you want and get it up and [TS]

01:19:13   running always to do a search for a few [TS]

01:19:15   keywords and i will show you the best [TS]

01:19:17   available options across all of the many [TS]

01:19:20   many domain name ending options out [TS]

01:19:23   there so there's com dotnet all the old [TS]

01:19:25   ones and there's all the new ones like [TS]

01:19:27   diamonds got plumbing there are so many [TS]

01:19:29   domain names now hover can search all [TS]

01:19:30   them for you now if you were ever able [TS]

01:19:32   to meet anywhere else you know that [TS]

01:19:34   other places this can be an unpleasant [TS]

01:19:36   experience you might be confused you [TS]

01:19:38   might feel you getting ripped off or [TS]

01:19:40   having the wool over your eyes might [TS]

01:19:42   have these weird upsells that you didn't [TS]

01:19:43   think you needed but they charge you [TS]

01:19:44   extra for hover does not believe in this [TS]

01:19:46   stuff and hover is very well designed [TS]

01:19:48   very easy-to-use they don't do heavy [TS]

01:19:50   handed up selling of weird packages and [TS]

01:19:52   privacy things now they give you what [TS]

01:19:54   you need at the base price [TS]

01:19:56   they even offer something called Valley [TS]

01:19:58   transfer service which is really cool if [TS]

01:20:00   you have name somewhere else that you [TS]

01:20:02   want to migrate to hover you can do it [TS]

01:20:04   yourself it's fine it's a little bit [TS]

01:20:06   tedious and error-prone though so if you [TS]

01:20:07   want you can give them the log into your [TS]

01:20:10   old domain name registrar and they will [TS]

01:20:11   do the move for you for free for any [TS]

01:20:14   number of domains so check it out that [TS]

01:20:16   email therefore they have all sorts of [TS]

01:20:17   stuff you could use go to hover com [TS]

01:20:20   check this out for yourself [TS]

01:20:21   use promo code egg everything one word [TS]

01:20:23   that's a everything which I believe is a [TS]

01:20:26   canonical bagel flavor for ten percent [TS]

01:20:28   off your first purchase [TS]

01:20:30   thank you very much to hover for [TS]

01:20:31   sponsoring our show so did you guys hear [TS]

01:20:33   that Apple's doomed the doomed I tell [TS]

01:20:36   you know they're fine they're going to [TS]

01:20:38   be fighting to keep generating tons of [TS]

01:20:39   money who cares really good Wall Street [TS]

01:20:42   cares i totally get why Wall Street [TS]

01:20:45   cares about Apple's financial [TS]

01:20:46   performance because that's their job at [TS]

01:20:48   being its wall street's job to care [TS]

01:20:49   about quarterly earnings and stuff as an [TS]

01:20:52   Apple user and even as an apple [TS]

01:20:54   developer i honestly don't care it's [TS]

01:20:56   worth hearing in broad strokes of the [TS]

01:20:59   ipads down everything's kind of second [TS]

01:21:01   for a quarter [TS]

01:21:02   yeah everything sags for a year let me [TS]

01:21:05   know that might be more interesting but [TS]

01:21:06   like to have like this little quarterly [TS]

01:21:08   updates of who will this year this [TS]

01:21:10   quarter was a little bit worse than last [TS]

01:21:11   year this quarter and that that that [TS]

01:21:13   particular pattern hasn't happened in a [TS]

01:21:14   long time even though they made billions [TS]

01:21:16   of dollars like okay well it's the kind [TS]

01:21:18   of thing that if you're an analyst or if [TS]

01:21:20   you're the kind of person who reads [TS]

01:21:21   analysts this matters to you but if you [TS]

01:21:24   are a user or developer or fan i just [TS]

01:21:28   don't see how to find stuff matters [TS]

01:21:30   well I think Apple reaction to the [TS]

01:21:31   finance stuff might better like not so [TS]

01:21:33   much the results themselves of what [TS]

01:21:34   apple says about them like you know [TS]

01:21:36   that's why wasn't there any calls or [TS]

01:21:37   read transcription or whatever is yeah [TS]

01:21:40   you want to get the news in the news is [TS]

01:21:41   you know trends are continuing in there [TS]

01:21:44   no surprise musical example gives [TS]

01:21:45   guidance on its on what it thinks its [TS]

01:21:47   financial results are gonna be next [TS]

01:21:48   quarter and the next quarter comes and [TS]

01:21:50   thus far they pretty much been within [TS]

01:21:52   their guides they give a range like well [TS]

01:21:53   we expect low of this and I of that and [TS]

01:21:55   they land somewhere in the middle of it [TS]

01:21:56   and people still freaked out about Wall [TS]

01:21:59   Street so for example but whatever like [TS]

01:22:00   it's not it's not sharing but what apple [TS]

01:22:03   says during those calls to make for the [TS]

01:22:06   most part but apples trying to during [TS]

01:22:07   these causes too if something seems bad [TS]

01:22:09   apple says something to make it seem not [TS]

01:22:12   so bad because that ball doesn't like it [TS]

01:22:14   when their stock price goes down right [TS]

01:22:15   and if things are good Apple trumpets [TS]

01:22:19   that they're good and tell you why [TS]

01:22:21   they're good and how amazing it is and [TS]

01:22:23   you know how proud they are baba and [TS]

01:22:25   that's the more interesting part of [TS]

01:22:27   earnings is how the company reacts and [TS]

01:22:28   this this recent one end in the lead-up [TS]

01:22:32   to this recent set of results [TS]

01:22:34   the thing I've been noticing about Apple [TS]

01:22:36   is the emphasis on their services [TS]

01:22:39   business of talking about it you know [TS]

01:22:42   every chance they get and during the [TS]

01:22:44   earrings called emphasize that as a [TS]

01:22:45   growth you know it as the part of the [TS]

01:22:47   business that's growing and doing well [TS]

01:22:48   and that that bothers me a little bit be [TS]

01:22:55   well it bothers me and it could be good [TS]

01:22:57   thing first let's say the optimistic [TS]

01:22:58   side could be good thing in that all [TS]

01:23:00   right services business is growing and [TS]

01:23:03   apple you know what is the good news [TS]

01:23:05   Apple well iphone sales are down your [TS]

01:23:07   year but they're still doing really well [TS]

01:23:08   but if you want a story about something [TS]

01:23:09   is growing hey we've got things that are [TS]

01:23:11   going to but that's what everyone's [TS]

01:23:12   always looking for you know where is the [TS]

01:23:13   gross going to come from next doesn't [TS]

01:23:15   seem like it's going to be the apple [TS]

01:23:16   watch at least not for a little while or [TS]

01:23:18   wearables or whatever but services are [TS]

01:23:20   growing [TS]

01:23:20   that's good annapolis emphasize that and [TS]

01:23:24   maybe by emphasizing services and by [TS]

01:23:26   making more money from it will make [TS]

01:23:28   apple invest more in it because if they [TS]

01:23:30   see that as their next big growth [TS]

01:23:31   opportunity they will you know they were [TS]

01:23:33   investing themselves and try to continue [TS]

01:23:35   to make it grow and that will be better [TS]

01:23:36   because historically speaking Apple [TS]

01:23:38   services and nothing great [TS]

01:23:40   on the flip side the pessimistic side I [TS]

01:23:43   feel like Apple can be proud of the [TS]

01:23:45   growth of its services segment but also [TS]

01:23:50   not really getting any better its [TS]

01:23:53   services like I don't know if you can [TS]

01:23:54   turn apple into a services company they [TS]

01:23:56   seem so far from we talked to her for [TS]

01:23:59   them you know the cloud kid vs you know [TS]

01:24:01   Microsoft Azure or AWS or any other [TS]

01:24:04   things they just don't seem like they [TS]

01:24:08   understand what it takes to be really [TS]

01:24:10   great there and if that's going to be [TS]

01:24:13   coming important part of the business [TS]

01:24:14   they need to get way better at it and it [TS]

01:24:16   seemed instead of what it seems to me as [TS]

01:24:18   they they're finding ways to make more [TS]

01:24:20   money from their existing customers [TS]

01:24:22   and that's growing their quote unquote [TS]

01:24:23   services revenue hey we have all these [TS]

01:24:24   people who buy these devices that they [TS]

01:24:26   love can we find more ways to monetize [TS]

01:24:28   them which i guess is fine as far as [TS]

01:24:31   business models go even though it's kind [TS]

01:24:33   of been the inverse of what it's always [TS]

01:24:34   been which is our hardware and the [TS]

01:24:36   services just make a hardware more [TS]

01:24:38   attractive now it's like all those [TS]

01:24:39   people who have our hardware there are [TS]

01:24:41   potential source of service revenue so [TS]

01:24:43   we should make services for them but [TS]

01:24:44   when i look at the services they offer i [TS]

01:24:46   don't feel like for the most part [TS]

01:24:48   they're best-in-class in any category [TS]

01:24:49   you know and and if you're going to be [TS]

01:24:52   if your next big growth opportunities of [TS]

01:24:54   the services company kinda way way [TS]

01:24:56   better at services and I don't see I [TS]

01:24:59   mean maybe that's going on internally [TS]

01:25:00   but externally Apple saying we love [TS]

01:25:02   services we have a lot of customers we [TS]

01:25:04   found we know we found ways to get money [TS]

01:25:06   from them isn't that great and I think [TS]

01:25:08   no that's does not really great like I [TS]

01:25:11   don't monetizing your existing the [TS]

01:25:13   existing customers of your hardware that [TS]

01:25:15   we all love and even your operating [TS]

01:25:17   systems that we all love you trying to [TS]

01:25:20   make them pay for services that we [TS]

01:25:21   tolerate or accept because of platform [TS]

01:25:25   integration that doesn't make me feel [TS]

01:25:26   particularly good about apple or its [TS]

01:25:28   services so i really hope my first [TS]

01:25:30   scenario is what happens that services [TS]

01:25:31   end up being a growth business that [TS]

01:25:33   Apple gets much much better at I mean [TS]

01:25:36   there's also option number three this [TS]

01:25:38   might have just been what they said to [TS]

01:25:40   be spin on these calls that they knew [TS]

01:25:42   were going to be down in like hardware [TS]

01:25:45   sales this month has been something they [TS]

01:25:47   told Wall Street to just kind of [TS]

01:25:49   spinning and frame it in a better way to [TS]

01:25:51   try to soften the blow a little bit and [TS]

01:25:52   try to appear they have like major you [TS]

01:25:55   know growth opportunities in the future [TS]

01:25:57   in another area let's face it at your [TS]

01:25:59   right [TS]

01:26:00   apple is not really much of a services [TS]

01:26:02   company they are primarily a hardware [TS]

01:26:04   company [TS]

01:26:05   hey I mean applicate local applications [TS]

01:26:07   operating systems platforms hardware but [TS]

01:26:10   then services i feel like is that they [TS]

01:26:12   have not been strong and I account that [TS]

01:26:14   is separate from hey how good is the mac [TS]

01:26:16   operating system how good are the [TS]

01:26:18   applications available for your platform [TS]

01:26:20   right but so you know [TS]

01:26:21   option one as you said it's an option [TS]

01:26:22   one is like Apple actually makes itself [TS]

01:26:24   a really big services business option [TS]

01:26:27   two is they just kind of tighten the [TS]

01:26:29   screws and try to extract more money out [TS]

01:26:31   of us in ways that are not so great [TS]

01:26:32   option three is [TS]

01:26:35   they kind of just keep doing what [TS]

01:26:36   they've been doing and that was just [TS]

01:26:38   spin on the call to soften the blow of [TS]

01:26:40   that results all three of them I think I [TS]

01:26:42   probably equally likely [TS]

01:26:44   well but the reason that I don't think [TS]

01:26:45   it's just been for this particular [TS]

01:26:46   announcement is because the services [TS]

01:26:48   pushes not just this quarter like Apple [TS]

01:26:50   music the at the apple TV 2 apple TV [TS]

01:26:53   subscription business that they've been [TS]

01:26:56   trying reportedly you know rumored to be [TS]

01:26:58   trying to get off the ground forever and [TS]

01:26:59   just couldn't do and they launched the [TS]

01:27:00   hardware without it like those are two [TS]

01:27:02   pretty potentially pretty big [TS]

01:27:04   initiatives that predate the you know a [TS]

01:27:07   dip an iphone sales year-over-year you [TS]

01:27:09   know whatever who cares but like growth [TS]

01:27:11   has been slowing in there other [TS]

01:27:12   businesses and I think that watching [TS]

01:27:13   everything doesn't have to find another [TS]

01:27:14   big hardware product they can take that [TS]

01:27:16   you know and then the ipad efforts like [TS]

01:27:17   can we find the next big hardware [TS]

01:27:20   product line it's going to take off but [TS]

01:27:21   the services push I feel like it's been [TS]

01:27:23   brewing even longer especially since [TS]

01:27:25   eServices take a long time to get off [TS]

01:27:26   the ground and the rumored revamp about [TS]

01:27:27   music at WWDC just shows like they're [TS]

01:27:30   serious about like you know recurring [TS]

01:27:33   revenue for network services for people [TS]

01:27:37   who own our devices [TS]

01:27:39   I mean you can't even count iCloud and [TS]

01:27:41   all the the storage you know charges [TS]

01:27:43   very you know I cloud storage for your [TS]

01:27:45   backups and bright cloud drive like this [TS]

01:27:48   has been a long time building like that [TS]

01:27:49   service didn't come out of nowhere [TS]

01:27:50   they've been slowly growing and apple [TS]

01:27:52   has been inventing new ways for you to [TS]

01:27:56   regularly give money to apple for the [TS]

01:27:59   privilege of using their services that [TS]

01:28:00   integrate with the hard way that you [TS]

01:28:01   already bought from them and I don't see [TS]

01:28:04   the number of those services going down [TS]

01:28:05   if anything like again the apple the [TS]

01:28:07   Apple TV 2 i'm counting email doesn't [TS]

01:28:08   actually exist just because there's been [TS]

01:28:10   so much smoke around that I feel like if [TS]

01:28:12   Apple could have got the content deals [TS]

01:28:13   done in a way that they thought made an [TS]

01:28:15   attractive product that would have [TS]

01:28:16   launched a long time ago just seems like [TS]

01:28:17   we can't get the deals done but Apple [TS]

01:28:20   music is their most serious services [TS]

01:28:24   offer you no effort to date and as a lot [TS]

01:28:27   of articles to point out like for the [TS]

01:28:28   net for the size of the installed base [TS]

01:28:30   that Apple has four people who own apple [TS]

01:28:32   devices listen to music the penetration [TS]

01:28:34   about music is not been great like maybe [TS]

01:28:35   they were late with that because Spotify [TS]

01:28:36   has got too much of a a foothold in that [TS]

01:28:39   market or whatever it could be the same [TS]

01:28:41   thing with television maybe the two late [TS]

01:28:42   in netflix cuts and Netflix HBO and hulu [TS]

01:28:44   and everything [TS]

01:28:45   also got too much of a football than [TS]

01:28:46   that but it seems like they're there is [TS]

01:28:50   a real serious multi-year effort in size [TS]

01:28:52   Apple to maybe have the same way we're [TS]

01:28:55   thinking services like a like Dropbox or [TS]

01:28:57   whatever but 22 it sent sounds bad to [TS]

01:29:00   say to monetize their customer base but [TS]

01:29:02   they basically to offer network services [TS]

01:29:05   to their customers because that is a [TS]

01:29:06   very large and growing business you know [TS]

01:29:10   I will provide you music or video or [TS]

01:29:12   some other kind of entertainment you [TS]

01:29:14   know what will give you content instead [TS]

01:29:17   of you buying each one of these little [TS]

01:29:18   items you just pay a subscription fee [TS]

01:29:20   and we will deliver it to you on all [TS]

01:29:22   your devices and there's lots of those [TS]

01:29:24   businesses and apple I think wants to be [TS]

01:29:25   one of those businesses but thus far has [TS]

01:29:28   just kind of been a middle-of-the-pack [TS]

01:29:30   also-ran and everyone that centered i [TS]

01:29:33   think of Apple really wants to become a [TS]

01:29:35   more serious services company i think [TS]

01:29:37   they have shown through the results [TS]

01:29:40   through their actions that their current [TS]

01:29:42   setup is just bad at that it seems to me [TS]

01:29:45   that they would have to somehow [TS]

01:29:47   dramatically restructure the part of the [TS]

01:29:50   organization that does services maybe [TS]

01:29:53   that's something as dramatic as [TS]

01:29:54   replacing Eddy Cue maybe it's something [TS]

01:29:56   less dramatic like just giving you know [TS]

01:29:59   having somebody else take some of those [TS]

01:30:01   things out of the organization and make [TS]

01:30:03   a new like services that kind of like [TS]

01:30:05   what just happened with phil schiller [TS]

01:30:07   the app store like something has to [TS]

01:30:09   change their because whatever they have [TS]

01:30:12   now just doesn't work that well to [TS]

01:30:14   achieve those goals or they could [TS]

01:30:17   yeah I was trying to think they could [TS]

01:30:18   have a similar service but like this is [TS]

01:30:20   something i had in the the potential [TS]

01:30:22   topic notes for many months and just [TS]

01:30:23   been slowly push down but it was an [TS]

01:30:25   article Jason L wrote a while ago about [TS]

01:30:28   the idea of Apple launching a netflix [TS]

01:30:32   style video service in which they would [TS]

01:30:35   fund original content [TS]

01:30:36   you know it seems so it seems kind of [TS]

01:30:38   weird way back when it's like Netflix [TS]

01:30:40   will let you stream the movies and TV [TS]

01:30:42   shows you like on your television or [TS]

01:30:44   computer isn't that great and then it [TS]

01:30:46   was like the necklace is going to make [TS]

01:30:47   their own show starring kevin spacey and [TS]

01:30:49   they're going to fund it themselves or [TS]

01:30:50   how many million dollars netflix doesn't [TS]

01:30:52   make shows netflix just gives me the [TS]

01:30:54   shows that other people have already [TS]

01:30:55   made [TS]

01:30:56   why would netflix make a show and it [TS]

01:30:57   seemed absurd but [TS]

01:30:58   you know fast forward a few years and [TS]

01:31:01   it's not so absurd and netflix and [TS]

01:31:03   amazon pay for shows to be made and then [TS]

01:31:05   they stream them exclusively on their [TS]

01:31:07   surfaces and HP of course came to the [TS]

01:31:09   other direction where they paid you know [TS]

01:31:11   even even HBO used to be just home box [TS]

01:31:13   office here to watch movies other people [TS]

01:31:14   made an HBO HBO start paying for its own [TS]

01:31:16   content that you don't get HBO and then [TS]

01:31:19   HBO decided to have a service that [TS]

01:31:20   eventually divorced in the cable [TS]

01:31:21   companies all these other companies are [TS]

01:31:23   getting into the defunding the creative [TS]

01:31:25   services and Jason's articles like why [TS]

01:31:27   you know why wouldn't that be something [TS]

01:31:30   that apple would want to get into the [TS]

01:31:32   obvious answer is it you know Apple is [TS]

01:31:33   currently in the business of selling [TS]

01:31:34   other people's content apple doesn't [TS]

01:31:36   make music based on other people's music [TS]

01:31:37   apple doesn't make movies and television [TS]

01:31:39   shows they sell other people's tell the [TS]

01:31:40   movies and television shows and give the [TS]

01:31:42   money to the people who made them and [TS]

01:31:43   they're just the middleman type of thing [TS]

01:31:45   but all those other companies that [TS]

01:31:47   described started out and a similar [TS]

01:31:49   place and eventually came to make their [TS]

01:31:52   own content and it could be that if you [TS]

01:31:54   want to be a successful in this video [TS]

01:31:56   service for example did again table [TS]

01:31:59   stakes is by the way you also have to [TS]

01:32:01   have some exclusive content and the only [TS]

01:32:03   way you can the best way to get [TS]

01:32:04   exclusive content is to find it yourself [TS]

01:32:05   Apple's got tons of money and [TS]

01:32:07   connections to people in the [TS]

01:32:08   entertainment industry [TS]

01:32:10   why can't they find their own you know [TS]

01:32:13   orange is the new black house of cards [TS]

01:32:14   or whatever and have it exclusively [TS]

01:32:17   available on a theoretical subscription [TS]

01:32:19   apple TV service is that the only way [TS]

01:32:22   that they could ever be a serious player [TS]

01:32:24   in the market video other than being [TS]

01:32:26   simply a platform for the netflix app [TS]

01:32:28   platform for the hulu a platform for the [TS]

01:32:30   HBO Go app if that's what they want to [TS]

01:32:33   be fine but i don't know if that is the [TS]

01:32:36   real growth opportunity they think it is [TS]

01:32:38   and I think of simple services even [TS]

01:32:41   something like Netflix and I think about [TS]

01:32:43   netflix does like if you like this you [TS]

01:32:45   might like that and just the basic you [TS]

01:32:47   know polish of the application of [TS]

01:32:48   automatically playing the next episode [TS]

01:32:50   and keeping track of where you left off [TS]

01:32:52   and everything even that I feel like is [TS]

01:32:54   above the degree of difficulty than [TS]

01:32:56   apple can handle based on are you know [TS]

01:32:58   past episodes to talk about simply [TS]

01:33:00   trying to watch a season of television [TS]

01:33:01   apple TV and the difficulty of [TS]

01:33:03   navigating to what the next show is [TS]

01:33:05   going to be in everything [TS]

01:33:06   I just don't feel like apples up to it [TS]

01:33:08   but one of the things apple has that [TS]

01:33:11   other companies don't is a humongous [TS]

01:33:13   pile of cash and one of the things that [TS]

01:33:14   humongous pile of cash can buy you if [TS]

01:33:16   you are smart and know the right people [TS]

01:33:17   is original creative content whether [TS]

01:33:20   they be television movies or I suppose [TS]

01:33:22   even music but if button like I said at [TS]

01:33:24   the beginning of all this the big issue [TS]

01:33:27   is how r do those other companies that [TS]

01:33:30   sell music or television shows movies [TS]

01:33:31   through your services feel about you [TS]

01:33:33   making movies or television or yeah they [TS]

01:33:36   probably don't like that very much and [TS]

01:33:39   so maybe Apple would never do anything [TS]

01:33:41   to sort of become non-neutral in that [TS]

01:33:43   war but and as far as that hasn't [TS]

01:33:45   happened in music like I don't respond [TS]

01:33:47   defies funding its own music music and [TS]

01:33:50   you know starting his own record label [TS]

01:33:51   and getting its own artist and all that [TS]

01:33:52   stuff but in the video around it's [TS]

01:33:55   happening and I don't know if it's [TS]

01:33:57   helping or hurting ever like Netflix is [TS]

01:33:58   catalog has been shrinking I have no [TS]

01:34:00   idea if there's any correlation between [TS]

01:34:01   the making original content but it [TS]

01:34:03   definitely makes the relationship more [TS]

01:34:05   complicated Spotify doesn't have [TS]

01:34:08   original artists but it does Commission [TS]

01:34:10   original performances I figure out there [TS]

01:34:13   the Spotify sessions is i believe it's [TS]

01:34:15   called I to does that too by the way [TS]

01:34:17   yeah you're right and they'll have [TS]

01:34:18   artists come in and do a performance [TS]

01:34:19   that's exclusive to Spotify or you're [TS]

01:34:22   right mark our itunes not exactly you're [TS]

01:34:24   talking about John but not too far away [TS]

01:34:25   either [TS]

01:34:26   yeah i think what we've seen from the [TS]

01:34:29   streaming services of both for video [TS]

01:34:31   stuff and and music stuff that exclusive [TS]

01:34:34   content is what drives people to go [TS]

01:34:37   subscribe to these things for the most [TS]

01:34:38   part like Netflix was kind of like for a [TS]

01:34:40   while before had much original stuff [TS]

01:34:42   network is kinda like the [TS]

01:34:43   bargain-basement like and it was one of [TS]

01:34:44   the first big video streamers but the [TS]

01:34:46   reason why people get netflix now [TS]

01:34:48   especially over something else that [TS]

01:34:50   might do something you know kind of [TS]

01:34:51   similar one of the biggest reasons they [TS]

01:34:53   get netflix now is for the original [TS]

01:34:54   content you know amazon prime video one [TS]

01:34:57   of the reasons people want to watch that [TS]

01:34:59   is because of stuff they have their that [TS]

01:35:01   you can't watch in other places also [TS]

01:35:03   because a lot of times you're getting it [TS]

01:35:04   for free with your free fast shipping [TS]

01:35:05   thing but you know I think an HBO of [TS]

01:35:08   course the United part of the best [TS]

01:35:10   example where like people paying for HBO [TS]

01:35:12   which everyone is it go now [TS]

01:35:15   I don't know one of the HBO things [TS]

01:35:17   people paying for doing it not to get [TS]

01:35:19   some kind of movie that HP [TS]

01:35:20   so let's see for a few weeks it's know [TS]

01:35:23   if they're doing it for the original [TS]

01:35:24   content so I think if Apple is serious [TS]

01:35:26   about getting into that kind of business [TS]

01:35:28   I would say that in if anything the [TS]

01:35:30   market is showing that Apple needs [TS]

01:35:32   original content to really succeed there [TS]

01:35:34   yeah I think of the the I didn't watch [TS]

01:35:37   amazon video at all and i have we have [TS]

01:35:39   amazon prime I could have been watching [TS]

01:35:40   anything it was like free for prime [TS]

01:35:42   video people the only reason I started [TS]

01:35:44   watching it was a man in the high castle [TS]

01:35:45   which was original content for amazon I [TS]

01:35:47   I suppose there are many shows that i [TS]

01:35:50   could have watched on amazon streaming [TS]

01:35:52   that I also had available on netflix [TS]

01:35:54   streaming you know just like the shows [TS]

01:35:55   that everybody has their the movies that [TS]

01:35:57   everybody has but you kind of get into a [TS]

01:35:59   habit like my habit tends to be my first [TS]

01:36:02   go-to for like where's his movie stream [TS]

01:36:04   you're free i go to netflix and only [TS]

01:36:06   think about Amazon tangentially but [TS]

01:36:08   original content is what property to us [TS]

01:36:10   they already pay for HBO for my [TS]

01:36:11   television but if i didn't i would [TS]

01:36:14   definitely pay for HBO now to see Game [TS]

01:36:17   of Thrones just for that one show i have [TS]

01:36:18   no idea what the hell else you know I or [TS]

01:36:20   whatever shoulder-width Deadwood in the [TS]

01:36:22   past the sopranos or whatever [TS]

01:36:23   original content is a huge driver though [TS]

01:36:25   it still remains a question whether [TS]

01:36:27   Apple has to be in the content business [TS]

01:36:29   to be viable because I got apple TV has [TS]

01:36:31   apps for all the services we just listed [TS]

01:36:33   i just i'm not sure how much money Apple [TS]

01:36:38   seized from that it may give you know [TS]

01:36:40   all these things like fine we'll make [TS]

01:36:41   people sign up for HBO outside of apple [TS]

01:36:44   TV so we don't have to pay you thirty [TS]

01:36:46   percent or whatever but you know people [TS]

01:36:48   will buy an Apple TV but that's the [TS]

01:36:50   apple TV that is a cheap device with [TS]

01:36:52   some fairly slim margins in the grand [TS]

01:36:54   scheme of things and once you buy one [TS]

01:36:56   you don't have a bigger to replace it [TS]

01:36:57   meanwhile we're all paying you know 10 [TS]

01:37:00   20 bucks a month to all these different [TS]

01:37:01   services to get this video content I [TS]

01:37:04   feel like Apple would be expected their [TS]

01:37:06   services business they would be more [TS]

01:37:08   happy getting a monthly a small amount [TS]

01:37:12   of money from customers rather than you [TS]

01:37:13   buying a hundred fifty dollar apple TV [TS]

01:37:15   once every three years when the other [TS]

01:37:17   problem is even if they do this and [TS]

01:37:19   succeed relative to the growth that [TS]

01:37:22   they're trying to make up for and [TS]

01:37:23   hardware which isn't that much money [TS]

01:37:25   yeah well that's that that's apples [TS]

01:37:26   problem you know that the bottom line [TS]

01:37:28   problem is is there anything that's ever [TS]

01:37:30   going to be as big as the iphone because [TS]

01:37:31   so many I mean and again [TS]

01:37:33   tim cook pointed this out of the other [TS]

01:37:35   thing he was spitting on the call which [TS]

01:37:36   is look I phones not done like yeah you [TS]

01:37:40   know almost every person in the world [TS]

01:37:41   who can afford a smartphone as one but [TS]

01:37:44   not really because people still using [TS]

01:37:45   dumb phones and we only have like forty [TS]

01:37:47   percent market share so we have a [TS]

01:37:49   60-percent that we can grow into it just [TS]

01:37:51   I think everyone feels like that the the [TS]

01:37:54   the battle lines have been drawn in the [TS]

01:37:56   front so kind of settled and it's like [TS]

01:37:57   yeah yeah you're right you don't even [TS]

01:37:59   have you no more a majority market share [TS]

01:38:02   but we feel like you're never gonna have [TS]

01:38:04   a majority market share so unless you [TS]

01:38:06   can suddenly start selling iphones to [TS]

01:38:08   you know you know billion people in [TS]

01:38:09   India who previously you couldn't sell [TS]

01:38:11   them to or the middle class in China you [TS]

01:38:14   know increasingly all these things that [TS]

01:38:15   right here's how we can sell more [TS]

01:38:17   iphones but it seems like there's a lot [TS]

01:38:21   of pessimism about the potential growth [TS]

01:38:22   both of the overall smartphone market [TS]

01:38:25   you know in the short term anyway and in [TS]

01:38:28   apples ability to get more of that [TS]

01:38:29   market so everyone is looking for the [TS]

01:38:31   next thing what else can you sell that [TS]

01:38:33   will make you iphone kind of money or [TS]

01:38:35   half iphone kind of money or quarter [TS]

01:38:37   iphone kind of money again I think [TS]

01:38:39   wearables is a possible answer but the [TS]

01:38:42   apple watch is currently not a concrete [TS]

01:38:44   implementation of that possible answer [TS]

01:38:46   because that whatever category they lump [TS]

01:38:48   it into other but yeah but it's not you [TS]

01:38:51   know it's not a second the world on fire [TS]

01:38:53   and the mac and ipad don't look like [TS]

01:38:56   they are on growth trajectories to be [TS]

01:38:58   the next iPhones either maybe cars will [TS]

01:39:00   be I don't know [TS]

01:39:01   even then it's like if you'd like if you [TS]

01:39:03   look at the market caps for like big car [TS]

01:39:05   companies like it it's the like Apple is [TS]

01:39:08   Apple has gotten so big and so [TS]

01:39:10   successful and the and the smartphone [TS]

01:39:13   has been such a revolution that was [TS]

01:39:16   accelerated both in in speed and [TS]

01:39:19   ubiquity and in profitability by a [TS]

01:39:21   number of weird factors that like you [TS]

01:39:24   know the way like people weren't really [TS]

01:39:25   paying their direct prices and so many [TS]

01:39:26   markets and the upgrade cycle and how [TS]

01:39:28   many people need that much as so many [TS]

01:39:30   people like the spread on the whole [TS]

01:39:32   world how quickly it happened I mean the [TS]

01:39:34   smartphone that was such a combination [TS]

01:39:37   of fairly unique factors that it is [TS]

01:39:40   unlikely during our lifetimes that we [TS]

01:39:42   will see any other device that allows [TS]

01:39:44   that level of insane fast [TS]

01:39:46   growth and profitability that's it's [TS]

01:39:48   probably not gonna happen again [TS]

01:39:50   that's not to say there isn't any other [TS]

01:39:52   area of growth but that I don't think [TS]

01:39:54   there will be something that will [TS]

01:39:55   provide quite this level and [TS]

01:39:58   explosiveness of it they don't need one [TS]

01:40:00   thing like a minute right there it seems [TS]

01:40:02   like they're trying to do you know in [TS]

01:40:05   bits and pieces diversification like [TS]

01:40:06   they don't want to be the iphone company [TS]

01:40:08   so if iPhone slows down you have a hedge [TS]

01:40:10   against that right yeah and if your head [TS]

01:40:12   is not one other product maybe it's for [TS]

01:40:14   other products that together make up an [TS]

01:40:16   iphone sized lump and that the iphone [TS]

01:40:18   decreases if you could be ransoming [TS]

01:40:19   those up at the same time you still say [TS]

01:40:21   above water like it though you look at [TS]

01:40:23   all the little graph you can see as you [TS]

01:40:24   know as one thing rose to prominence and [TS]

01:40:27   then faded something else came from out [TS]

01:40:29   of nowhere to rise to prominence then [TS]

01:40:30   fade and something else comes out of [TS]

01:40:31   nowhere and as if the iphone is if not [TS]

01:40:34   fading that at least leveling off you [TS]

01:40:36   may need a bunch of other lines to come [TS]

01:40:38   and together some up to something looks [TS]

01:40:41   like a reasonable head because you don't [TS]

01:40:42   want to be a company where like [TS]

01:40:43   ninety-five percent of your revenues [TS]

01:40:45   coming from one product line and apples [TS]

01:40:48   not a figure with the iphone is this but [TS]

01:40:49   I think it's like 60 ish somebody better [TS]

01:40:51   center something like that would still [TS]

01:40:53   pretty good in the grand scheme of [TS]

01:40:54   things but you gotta get one of those [TS]

01:40:56   other little pie wedges and the other [TS]

01:40:58   forty percent to be on a reasonable [TS]

01:41:01   growth trajectory because i think that [TS]

01:41:03   iphone will keep growing like more [TS]

01:41:04   people will be able to afford [TS]

01:41:05   smartphones the price of the product [TS]

01:41:06   will eventually go down until let people [TS]

01:41:09   more people for that more people will be [TS]

01:41:10   entering the middle class and if Apple [TS]

01:41:13   is lucky we'll be able to call a little [TS]

01:41:14   bit more market share percentage point [TS]

01:41:16   here and there from its competitors so [TS]

01:41:18   it's not like the iphone is done done [TS]

01:41:20   but uh you know that the giant a rocket [TS]

01:41:23   sled ride to the the top of the the [TS]

01:41:26   charges probably in the past with the [TS]

01:41:29   iphone one of the quick thing i do want [TS]

01:41:31   to take on this topic before we wrap up [TS]

01:41:33   you know we were kind of basing this on [TS]

01:41:35   the idea that you know apple right now [TS]

01:41:38   is really bad it web services or we're [TS]

01:41:40   not seeing them finding these make sure [TS]

01:41:42   the growth areas quite yet and maybe [TS]

01:41:44   they'll do a car but whatever I i think [TS]

01:41:46   it's worth pointing out that you know [TS]

01:41:48   companies can change and companies can [TS]

01:41:51   gain new expertise years ago before [TS]

01:41:53   apple launched the iphone the idea that [TS]

01:41:56   apple would have the the in-house [TS]

01:41:58   expertise [TS]

01:41:59   to make a phone to make a cell phone all [TS]

01:42:01   the creases like the baseband has to go [TS]

01:42:03   into that and then even like the idea [TS]

01:42:05   they'd be making their own processors or [TS]

01:42:07   these design their own processors like [TS]

01:42:08   these are like the kinds of things that [TS]

01:42:10   before Apple really set their mind to [TS]

01:42:13   doing it they couldn't do and you would [TS]

01:42:17   think at the time it would be hard to [TS]

01:42:19   see up half they would get there but [TS]

01:42:21   because they really put their mind to it [TS]

01:42:23   they they really made it a priority they [TS]

01:42:26   funded it they gave it time to get these [TS]

01:42:29   things you know that the talent and the [TS]

01:42:30   space to mature and the funds required [TS]

01:42:32   to develop these things over time they [TS]

01:42:35   were able to become to develop expertise [TS]

01:42:38   in these other areas that they didn't [TS]

01:42:40   have yet services could be one of those [TS]

01:42:43   areas they just have to do that process [TS]

01:42:46   they have to recognize that it's a [TS]

01:42:48   problem they don't do well now and then [TS]

01:42:51   invest in it make changes invest money [TS]

01:42:55   invest time get the right talent give [TS]

01:42:58   them space to grow give them the space [TS]

01:43:00   to operate Givens you know give them [TS]

01:43:02   what they need to develop that talent [TS]

01:43:04   house and to become great house [TS]

01:43:06   the main reason we haven't seen that yet [TS]

01:43:08   from apple is that there doesn't seem to [TS]

01:43:10   be much opinion in in the top-ranked [TS]

01:43:13   apple that anything in the way to do [TS]

01:43:15   they do services really needs to change [TS]

01:43:17   at least we're not seeing it [TS]

01:43:19   yeah I think they're already good at it [TS]

01:43:20   I think they're already okay at like [TS]

01:43:22   we've been doing that for years it's not [TS]

01:43:23   like a phone where we know we've never [TS]

01:43:25   made a phone before boy you better be [TS]

01:43:26   really better bear down and like work on [TS]

01:43:28   this over like now we've been doing [TS]

01:43:30   service like this and for ages i mean [TS]

01:43:32   remember he world wasn't a great like we [TS]

01:43:35   we've done all these great things uh we [TS]

01:43:37   just need to get a little bit better [TS]

01:43:38   like it's just a matter of tweaking [TS]

01:43:40   whereas like I think you're right the [TS]

01:43:41   mindset going into a phone was kind of [TS]

01:43:44   exactly what you know that the palm guy [TS]

01:43:46   said like the computer guys are just [TS]

01:43:47   gonna walk in Apple's like we don't know [TS]

01:43:49   anything about making phones i mean we [TS]

01:43:51   make computer devices and smartphones [TS]

01:43:53   are kind of computers but like you said [TS]

01:43:55   we've never been in the phone market [TS]

01:43:56   also we really better you know I go head [TS]

01:44:00   down on this and figure it out and work [TS]

01:44:03   really hard on it it would almost be [TS]

01:44:04   better if you could like white ball [TS]

01:44:06   history of Apple services from the earth [TS]

01:44:07   and just say starting from today pretend [TS]

01:44:10   you've got these iphones and [TS]

01:44:11   I was you know always iOS devices out [TS]

01:44:13   there and Max and everything but you've [TS]

01:44:15   never made a network service before and [TS]

01:44:17   you have all these billions of dollars [TS]

01:44:19   make one and you know i think a lot of [TS]

01:44:22   the iCloud revolution and cloud can [TS]

01:44:23   everything has been a step in the right [TS]

01:44:25   direction i still feel like because [TS]

01:44:26   they're coming from a position of of [TS]

01:44:29   okay and no they're not they're not [TS]

01:44:31   coming from a position of weakness as [TS]

01:44:33   far as they're concerned that kind of [TS]

01:44:34   reserve strength like we're okay right [TS]

01:44:37   it's not great maybe mobileme was kind [TS]

01:44:39   of crappy but all we do is just change a [TS]

01:44:42   few things and it will be great and I [TS]

01:44:43   just you know from my perspective on the [TS]

01:44:45   outside and seeing other companies that [TS]

01:44:46   do similar things I think they're [TS]

01:44:48   they're far from average I feel like [TS]

01:44:51   there's this huge weaknesses that are [TS]

01:44:52   not really that don't seem to be [TS]

01:44:55   resulting in the kind of radical change [TS]

01:44:58   that I feel like is it is necessary to [TS]

01:44:59   just get on the same playing field [TS]

01:45:01   everybody else is doing the same saw [TS]

01:45:02   same stuff [TS]

01:45:04   alright thanks a lot 23 sponsor this [TS]

01:45:06   week Casper audible.com and hover and we [TS]

01:45:09   will see you next week [TS]

01:45:13   now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

01:45:16   mean to begin as it was accidental [TS]

01:45:21   is accidental John research Marco in kc [TS]

01:45:27   wouldn't let him because it was [TS]

01:45:29   accidentally was accidental and you can [TS]

01:45:35   find the show know today [TS]

01:45:37   DP die and if your twitter you can [TS]

01:45:43   follow them [TS]

01:45:45   yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

01:45:50   co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC at [TS]

01:45:58   Syracuse it [TS]

01:46:11   don't even talk about table its look so [TS]

01:46:16   apple bottom Tendo now we'll save it for [TS]

01:46:18   next week it's fine i think we need to [TS]

01:46:20   talk about bumper sounds anybody [TS]

01:46:22   remember t-bone next week [TS]

01:46:23   yeah i remember our or whatever i'm [TS]

01:46:25   getting hacked [TS]

01:46:26   yeah what's that about yeah what is that [TS]

01:46:28   about it happens happens to people [TS]

01:46:31   happens like my my mother is usually on [TS]

01:46:36   the opposite side of the spectrum [TS]

01:46:37   constantly messaging me or emailing me [TS]

01:46:41   are set for any messages for saying i [TS]

01:46:44   got this message or text or email or [TS]

01:46:47   whatever and it says this should I trust [TS]

01:46:52   it is this a real thing is a scam [TS]

01:46:55   what should i do i do anything and [TS]

01:46:58   usually the answer is you know just [TS]

01:47:00   delete it [TS]

01:47:01   it's a scam you're right just deleted or [TS]

01:47:03   like no that's legitimate email from [TS]

01:47:04   apple or that's a legitimate receipt for [TS]

01:47:06   something you bought like but always a [TS]

01:47:09   erring on the side of just asking like [TS]

01:47:11   if you're not sure what this thing is [TS]

01:47:13   you're looking at ask when your computer [TS]

01:47:16   energy children [TS]

01:47:18   what's the deal with this is real is it [TS]

01:47:20   not real and all you know doesn't take [TS]

01:47:23   much faster just ask and the answer is [TS]

01:47:25   just delete the email then then you know [TS]

01:47:27   fine [TS]

01:47:28   this was the reverse case she had a [TS]

01:47:31   problem with one of her devices a [TS]

01:47:32   problem with your kindle and she does [TS]

01:47:35   what I guess most people do when they [TS]

01:47:37   have problems or kindle is like you type [TS]

01:47:38   something into a web search box it says [TS]

01:47:40   like kindle problem can't sink whatever [TS]

01:47:44   blah blah and it turns out if you type a [TS]

01:47:48   certain sequence of words involving [TS]

01:47:49   kindle and problem or whatever into [TS]

01:47:51   google one of the very top it's on the [TS]

01:47:54   first page is a completely bogus kindle [TS]

01:47:57   support website and phone number i go [TS]

01:48:01   you got a problem with your kindle call [TS]

01:48:03   this number and we'll help you with your [TS]

01:48:04   kindle so she called the number just [TS]

01:48:07   like a 1855 number whatever and nice [TS]

01:48:10   person answered the phone and asked her [TS]

01:48:13   about her problems with your kindle and [TS]

01:48:15   gave her instructions to download a [TS]

01:48:16   citrix client to her computer and then [TS]

01:48:19   our control your computer and [TS]

01:48:22   you said then terminal looking up a [TS]

01:48:24   whole bunch of things started scrolling [TS]

01:48:25   by yeah so eventually she figured out [TS]

01:48:30   once your cursor started moving that [TS]

01:48:32   because I dive connected you know I've [TS]

01:48:34   done screen sharing with her before and [TS]

01:48:35   control your computer to solve problems [TS]

01:48:36   that she knew this was something that [TS]

01:48:38   should not be happening with a stranger [TS]

01:48:40   although she got a lot of back talk from [TS]

01:48:42   the the stranger that the person the [TS]

01:48:43   phone was like you know she was saying [TS]

01:48:45   like I know you really from amazon [TS]

01:48:47   person was like you called me and and [TS]

01:48:49   like but that doesn't mean anything but [TS]

01:48:51   it was it wasn't but you know it just [TS]

01:48:54   shows like if you get off on the wrong [TS]

01:48:56   foot of like it was googling you you [TS]

01:48:58   think you know it's not actually kinda [TS]

01:49:00   hard to find a phone number to climb is [TS]

01:49:01   on my mom was assistant that you can't [TS]

01:49:03   actually call is on the phone which is [TS]

01:49:05   not true you can call them on the phone [TS]

01:49:06   but anyway it's very easy to just think [TS]

01:49:08   what the internet is a giant search box [TS]

01:49:10   where you type words and you click on [TS]

01:49:12   the results and then you know of course [TS]

01:49:14   it's trustworthy because i typed [TS]

01:49:16   something in the problem with my kindle [TS]

01:49:18   and i found be kindle support the [TS]

01:49:20   official kindle support help desk had a [TS]

01:49:21   phone number and the person picked up [TS]

01:49:23   was totally helping with me with my [TS]

01:49:25   kindle and just know what's the trick is [TS]

01:49:27   she has no you know I'm amazed that i'm [TS]

01:49:29   kind of impressed that the person got [TS]

01:49:31   that her to successfully download [TS]

01:49:33   install and launch the citrix thing [TS]

01:49:34   because that is no small feat must [TS]

01:49:36   involve a frustrating series of steps [TS]

01:49:39   trying to instruct people and how to [TS]

01:49:40   download things and nuns at things or [TS]

01:49:42   whatever anyway bottom line is i had her [TS]

01:49:47   just white pearl computer erase the hard [TS]

01:49:49   drive because like at that point you [TS]

01:49:51   just have to assume every single thing [TS]

01:49:52   on that computer is compromised and yeah [TS]

01:49:54   this is kind of the I mean you know this [TS]

01:49:59   this is not a burner computer but it [TS]

01:50:01   wasn't like her main computer she had [TS]

01:50:03   long since it was very old like a white [TS]

01:50:05   macbook so she had long since removed [TS]

01:50:06   everything from it she cared about so we [TS]

01:50:09   could wipe everything on it she was [TS]

01:50:11   using dropbox on theory there could be [TS]

01:50:13   something evil shoved into her dropbox [TS]

01:50:16   but hopefully that will be data and not [TS]

01:50:18   executables i don't know i mean she [TS]

01:50:20   could you know anyway and the other [TS]

01:50:21   thing is because my mom eventually [TS]

01:50:23   figured out that it was bad that the [TS]

01:50:25   person did disconnected the disconnect [TS]

01:50:26   after installing the ransomware botnet [TS]

01:50:28   blah blah rootkit on their thing [TS]

01:50:30   maybe maybe there was a one or two day [TS]

01:50:33   delay on [TS]

01:50:34   the rootkit thing or the keylogger where [TS]

01:50:37   the whole house was going on there [TS]

01:50:39   maybe it didn't get installed fast [TS]

01:50:42   enough because I don't really know what [TS]

01:50:43   the timeline is but you know what you [TS]

01:50:45   can so if we go race the entire hard [TS]

01:50:47   drive but we reinstall the operating [TS]

01:50:50   system everything redownloaded to [TS]

01:50:52   reinstall the operating system reinstall [TS]

01:50:54   the dropbox client did recent call her [TS]

01:50:56   files from dropbox with those people [TS]

01:50:57   stuck in something evil into dropbox [TS]

01:50:59   that somehow finds a way to execute [TS]

01:51:01   itself from within Dropbox she could be [TS]

01:51:04   reinfected but like whatever and tell [TS]

01:51:05   her to delete everything they drop boxes [TS]

01:51:07   that's basically like all her files so [TS]

01:51:08   no this is just there is actually an FTC [TS]

01:51:12   page about the specific thing like tech [TS]

01:51:14   support scammers or whatever what you're [TS]

01:51:15   supposed to do if you can scam so [TS]

01:51:16   hopefully being old retired people who [TS]

01:51:20   don't have anything better to do they [TS]

01:51:22   are doing everything that it says in [TS]

01:51:23   that page including reporting the phone [TS]

01:51:25   number and you know whatever get to keep [TS]

01:51:27   trying to get them you know the people [TS]

01:51:29   who are doing this to stop them from [TS]

01:51:30   doing it to other people but yeah be [TS]

01:51:35   careful out there on the internet it's [TS]

01:51:36   dangerous socks man i just asked this [TS]

01:51:41   stuff makes me so sad that like not that [TS]

01:51:43   like people fall for it because you know [TS]

01:51:45   people don't know any better with this [TS]

01:51:46   kind of stuff looks official you're [TS]

01:51:48   searching for something computers suck [TS]

01:51:49   at being clear so it's understandable [TS]

01:51:51   what makes me sad is that there are [TS]

01:51:54   people out there in the world who [TS]

01:51:56   everyday do this for a living and that [TS]

01:52:01   they seem to be okay with that and that [TS]

01:52:04   and they don't get caught I don't [TS]

01:52:05   understand I don't get caught like I [TS]

01:52:07   entered the phone number into google you [TS]

01:52:08   find a million people who are like yes [TS]

01:52:10   totally happened to me like years old [TS]

01:52:12   reports of like yep i call these people [TS]

01:52:14   and they seemed a little bit shady and [TS]

01:52:16   then weird things started happening on [TS]

01:52:17   my computer and I think I got a virus [TS]

01:52:19   and Bob like how do they how we go on [TS]

01:52:21   doing this how do we not like especially [TS]

01:52:23   if they're calling from within the [TS]

01:52:24   united states like this should be [TS]

01:52:25   arrested within like you know days or [TS]

01:52:28   weeks of the first report but no they [TS]

01:52:30   just go on for years and years and [TS]

01:52:32   apparently this is just fine with [TS]

01:52:33   everybody [TS]

01:52:34   yeah i mean that's we have we have two [TS]

01:52:36   failures here we have filled her number [TS]

01:52:38   one of these people doing this like [TS]

01:52:42   waking up every day and doing this and [TS]

01:52:44   being okay with that knowing what [TS]

01:52:46   they're doing and then fill your number [TS]

01:52:48   two is as I mean assuming they're [TS]

01:52:50   operating in the US which is not a safe [TS]

01:52:52   assumption but you know if they're [TS]

01:52:53   operating in a country that has laws how [TS]

01:52:57   is this continuing but the reality is [TS]

01:53:00   they're probably outside the US [TS]

01:53:01   yeah i know i think the phone number was [TS]

01:53:03   someplace in Atlanta or something and I [TS]

01:53:04   like it seemed like with it but it [TS]

01:53:06   wasn't well where the phone number is it [TS]

01:53:08   doesn't necessarily mean where they I [TS]

01:53:09   mean I get ya i get so much in recent [TS]

01:53:12   months I've had a massive uptick in the [TS]

01:53:15   amount of phone calls spam I get now [TS]

01:53:18   from like the robocalls and so you not [TS]

01:53:20   not just people like dun bradstreet who [TS]

01:53:22   have humans spam the crap out of you but [TS]

01:53:24   like robo calls for that come from us [TS]

01:53:27   numbers oftentimes numbers like Merle [TS]

01:53:29   entirely it will come like from from a [TS]

01:53:31   very close exchange to where I live so [TS]

01:53:34   that I'm thinking well but if this is [TS]

01:53:35   like somebody calling from my kids [TS]

01:53:36   school I better pick up you know or that [TS]

01:53:39   I got calls from san jose and like well [TS]

01:53:42   if you're an apple developer and you get [TS]

01:53:44   a call from san jose you pick up that [TS]

01:53:45   call and it's look like you know I've [TS]

01:53:48   gotten so much phone spam recently only [TS]

01:53:51   last few months because like I i think [TS]

01:53:53   what's going on is like there's all [TS]

01:53:55   these unique virtual phone services like [TS]

01:53:59   where you can like you know use some API [TS]

01:54:01   online to generate local phone calls [TS]

01:54:03   like these things exist for awhile i'm [TS]

01:54:05   guessing that spammers have finally [TS]

01:54:07   figured out that these things exist and [TS]

01:54:09   are like automating the creation of a [TS]

01:54:11   whole bunch of calls that are local to [TS]

01:54:13   each person their calling and spamming [TS]

01:54:15   them that way and anyway like you know [TS]

01:54:18   spammers and scammers that they find [TS]

01:54:21   ways that they're very creative they [TS]

01:54:23   find ways to to create new span the new [TS]

01:54:25   scams and just so sad [TS]

01:54:28   yeah I like this this long 1855 whatever [TS]

01:54:33   number like the fact that their old [TS]

01:54:34   google results for it shows that aren't [TS]

01:54:36   even being so smart as to like change [TS]

01:54:38   numbers all the time to keep hopping [TS]

01:54:39   around or whatever like they're just [TS]

01:54:41   using the same one over a long period of [TS]

01:54:42   time still like you figure the very [TS]

01:54:43   least they could do is like have the [TS]

01:54:47   government whoever disconnect that [TS]

01:54:49   number for fraud and force them to come [TS]

01:54:51   up with another number i mean maybe the [TS]

01:54:52   maybe that'll make it worse they would [TS]

01:54:53   be hopping around more but the only [TS]

01:54:55   thing I feel like I have going for me [TS]

01:54:58   and this situation is that [TS]

01:55:00   modest these type of scans tend to be [TS]

01:55:03   broad and so they're not like [TS]

01:55:05   specifically targeting my mother or [TS]

01:55:07   anybody else and what they mostly want [TS]

01:55:09   to do is probably scrape for credit card [TS]

01:55:13   numbers turn your computer into a bottle [TS]

01:55:15   install ransomware very generic stuff [TS]

01:55:18   not like do they know where my specific [TS]

01:55:21   secret files are do they want my photos [TS]

01:55:23   or whatever know it's just it's like a [TS]

01:55:25   one-size-fits-all scam they connect your [TS]

01:55:27   computer they find out what operating [TS]

01:55:29   system you have they put whatever [TS]

01:55:31   malware they want on there and it's just [TS]

01:55:33   and you know some percentage of it they [TS]

01:55:35   just assume the malware is not going to [TS]

01:55:36   work or their everything is going to be [TS]

01:55:38   erased or whatever but enough percentage [TS]

01:55:42   hit that it makes the money and for all [TS]

01:55:43   I know the person on the phone doing the [TS]

01:55:45   thing gets paid some percentage for the [TS]

01:55:47   number of people they install the [TS]

01:55:48   software on and then you know like it is [TS]

01:55:52   in some ways better than being [TS]

01:55:53   individually targeted for a hack like [TS]

01:55:55   you know if you're a bank or something [TS]

01:55:56   intact and hackers specifically target [TS]

01:55:58   you this kind of sort of generic 1i [TS]

01:56:03   don't know like mass-market scam is kind [TS]

01:56:07   of reassuring in how how little he cares [TS]

01:56:10   about you specifically so i have some [TS]

01:56:12   dim hope that immediately erasing her [TS]

01:56:14   entire computer has actually saved her [TS]

01:56:16   from any sort of future problems but who [TS]

01:56:19   knows who knows what they got [TS]

01:56:21   I mean she was you know her key chain [TS]

01:56:22   was unlocked when they took control of [TS]

01:56:25   her computer she had an admin account [TS]

01:56:28   though she swears she never did enter [TS]

01:56:29   her admin password [TS]

01:56:31   I'm hoping that's the case but at the [TS]

01:56:33   very least your keychain was unlocked [TS]

01:56:35   and depressing sucks i'm glad she didn't [TS]

01:56:40   really in the grand scheme of things [TS]

01:56:42   that didn't seem like she really lost [TS]

01:56:43   any data or she's really that much worse [TS]

01:56:46   for wear [TS]

01:56:46   yeah well it's just a question of like [TS]

01:56:48   what did they get you know because yeah [TS]

01:56:50   she there's like you know if you knew [TS]

01:56:52   where to look on her computer there are [TS]

01:56:54   plenty of things that people would want [TS]

01:56:56   to steal you know because all people [TS]

01:57:00   write things down there not what's your [TS]

01:57:04   what's your beef with the completely [TS]

01:57:06   flawless windows XP sounds oh we were [TS]

01:57:10   and we already covered all all my beefs [TS]

01:57:12   I just want to add one thing to [TS]

01:57:14   bring together the two discussions about [TS]

01:57:16   them which is the fact that i don't like [TS]

01:57:19   the sounds because they're terrible and [TS]

01:57:21   the idea that no matter what sounds we [TS]

01:57:24   use eventually always finish the show [TS]

01:57:26   which includes me will come to expect [TS]

01:57:29   them as part of the show that you will [TS]

01:57:31   come to love the sounds and it's kind of [TS]

01:57:32   the reverse situation of the the reason [TS]

01:57:36   why you never set your favorite song to [TS]

01:57:38   be like the alarm that wakes you up in [TS]

01:57:39   the morning and work down because you [TS]

01:57:41   will come to hate it like you would just [TS]

01:57:44   make it like never do that never if you [TS]

01:57:46   like a song or anything like just you [TS]

01:57:48   can make yourself hate anything by make [TS]

01:57:51   her wake you up in the morning or maybe [TS]

01:57:53   a ringtone or whatever so you should [TS]

01:57:55   never do that you'll ruin things that [TS]

01:57:56   you love this is the reverse this is [TS]

01:57:58   taking something that I hate which is [TS]

01:58:00   these windows XP sounds and trying to [TS]

01:58:02   make me love it through repetition so [TS]

01:58:05   that that's what is the the real the [TS]

01:58:07   real horror of this this choice of [TS]

01:58:10   sounds and yes lots of people tweeted [TS]

01:58:12   they also had the sounds too i continue [TS]

01:58:15   to think that better sounds exist and i [TS]

01:58:17   would like to find 1 i'm thinking about [TS]

01:58:19   it and if i come up with ones i will [TS]

01:58:20   send them to you in the meantime I would [TS]

01:58:23   encourage you to use different sounds on [TS]

01:58:25   every show just like you want to have [TS]

01:58:27   different t-shirts every year and in [TS]

01:58:29   that way none of us will be forced to [TS]

01:58:32   come to expect in love windows XP [TS]

01:58:34   sentence by that rationale you would [TS]

01:58:36   always hate every sound I ever used [TS]

01:58:38   because you wouldn't have time to get [TS]