0:00:00we're in for a long show tonight are we
0:00:01not I don't honestly I don't know how
0:00:03long it's gonna last help you put that
0:00:06on the pre-show marcos classic honestly
0:00:09I don't think there's much to say always
0:00:12says that I never say it's gonna be a
0:00:14short show that's always you provided
0:00:16that you say it a different way that's
0:00:18the ways and i can tell i have a cold
0:00:22my-my streak is over i was gonna go to
0:00:24whole winter without getting sick almost
0:00:26made it out of this one so close
0:00:28can we just drive you over a creek how's
0:00:29your picture called I recognize that
0:00:33wasn't the best use that metaphor but i
0:00:34just cannot get tired of that metaphor
0:00:36it's so good yeah it's kind of mean that
0:00:39like is this gets back to what i was
0:00:40saying on the pasture we're talking
0:00:42about the new open a plan coming on
0:00:44podcasts or whatever it's so easy to
0:00:47make fun of that but that type of story
0:00:49is an example of people opening up like
0:00:52it's the type of thing that in a more
0:00:54controlled PR environment would never
0:00:56come out and it's slightly unfortunate
0:01:00that the story that they put out there
0:01:03because even on the merits it's kind of
0:01:06like well you're trying to make an
0:01:08emotional appeal but realistically
0:01:10speaking that's not an effective way for
0:01:11an organization to address problems to
0:01:14have the head of the you know that the
0:01:15head honchos of these huge swathes of
0:01:17the biggest company in the world be
0:01:19addressing problems on an individual
0:01:20level with their own particular max like
0:01:22that's not you need better tools to
0:01:24manage this problem so it just seems
0:01:27like you're trying to sway me
0:01:27emotionally with anecdote but doesn't
0:01:29make sense but that's the type of thing
0:01:32that you do when you open up about
0:01:35yourself in your personal life and i'm
0:01:36sure it really is true and so I'm glad
0:01:38we know that that's what's going on and
0:01:40now we can I guess make our own
0:01:43judgments about the effectiveness is the
0:01:45strategy of driving things to create
0:01:48victories and I don't know it is also
0:01:49trying to say how passionate they are
0:01:50that even these big important people are
0:01:52are not above getting down to a problem
0:01:57that they encounter that they're not
0:01:58going to leave it to the lower people so
0:01:59they'll take care of that they really
0:02:01want to fix every little problem they
0:02:02found so it's multifaceted it's
0:02:04personal--it's human it's flawed
0:02:07it's everything that the new open Apple
0:02:09the new more open apple is about
0:02:11so I only have a few questions about it
0:02:13first of all in what part of a Ferrari
0:02:16doesn't imac fit they have a lot of cars
0:02:18you have is the rule of thumb if you
0:02:20have a Ferrari it does not your only car
0:02:22that's fair okay a second question can
0:02:25you imagine being federighi and
0:02:27basically being like the tech support
0:02:29team for the entire company i wonder if
0:02:31that's like a Power Move like the video
0:02:34it's like that if you have something
0:02:35wrong with Apple music do you like drive
0:02:37your computer over to the anyhow that's
0:02:39I feel like it's unfair because all of
0:02:41any stuff is all cloud services like you
0:02:43you can't really drive a broken itunes
0:02:46store requests over to Eddie's house but
0:02:48you just bring you just bring your
0:02:49computer and say why is all my automated
0:02:52message fix this and you and you come
0:02:54back on monday is it done to fix my
0:02:56album that data is even funnier to
0:02:58imagine like you know your correctly
0:03:01you're like sitting down to dinner with
0:03:02your family and you know you hero here
0:03:05this like laude Nov 12 pull up in the
0:03:07driveway like oh god again didn't I said
0:03:11you can hold on everyone does he have
0:03:13the 599 I don't know I don't know I
0:03:15don't know Ferraris want to even I was
0:03:17just guessing there's probably a v12 one
0:03:19there is only one uh was only one
0:03:22well there's the eff is a p12 Casey
0:03:26remember I thought so but I too am NOT
0:03:29inside the idea for this this to
0:03:31front-engine b12 sitting on one's really
0:03:34ugly and four-wheel-drive that's the FF
0:03:36yeah is that even Ferrari it really is
0:03:39if it's ugly and four-wheel-drive it's
0:03:41still is John would suffer through I
0:03:45wouldn't have i got that i would sell a
0:03:46million Byron a better
0:03:52man anyway we should probably do some
0:03:54follow-up shouldn't we tell me about
0:03:56figma which I don't even remember
0:03:57talking about it was that vector thing
0:03:59remember that app that was gonna yes let
0:04:02you draw vectors in a different way and
0:04:04I said on the website that basically had
0:04:05a big sign up button instead of a big
0:04:07download buttons like I was nothing to
0:04:08download it you know it like you can
0:04:10sign up and i guess i'll tell you more
0:04:12when it's ready like that as if nothing
0:04:13wasn't out yet and David Klein treated
0:04:15to say that he's a I believe figma is
0:04:17one hundred percent in the browser
0:04:18nothing to download so when it does
0:04:20arrive apparently is going to be a web
0:04:21app but i still think you can get drive
0:04:24but anyway if i can try for free online
0:04:27i definitely will because I'm interested
0:04:28in how it's going to work
0:04:29don't know that was quick and easy and
0:04:32wanted to tell us about everyone's
0:04:33favorite font comic sans yes it's friend
0:04:38friend of the show and flop house
0:04:40adjacent micro celebrity John McCoy and
0:04:44a friend of mine pointed out that in all
0:04:46our discussion of comic sans or our
0:04:48Microsoft Bob rather we didn't mention
0:04:49that comic sans the much-hated font was
0:04:52created for but not shipped with
0:04:54Microsoft Bob so you can read the
0:04:56wikipedia entry on comics and you'll see
0:04:58that it was created to try to fit in
0:05:00with the Microsoft Bob world which
0:05:01explains why it's so awful but it didn't
0:05:04it didn't make it in time so they didn't
0:05:05ship with it so i get another thing you
0:05:07can blame on Microsoft Bob have you ever
0:05:10used Microsoft Bob John i don't think so
0:05:12i think only I've read about in
0:05:13magazines when it came out but I don't I
0:05:16don't I didn't have a pc obviously and
0:05:19none of my friends who had a pc had it
0:05:20all right John stop listening for a
0:05:22second Casey we have 24 april fools day
0:05:24somehow find a way to put Microsoft Bob
0:05:27on a computer in john's office
0:05:30I don't remember using it i bet you i
0:05:32did at some point but i don't remember
0:05:34having done so i installed windows a
0:05:36Down of the am on my mac and I feel
0:05:38really weird
0:05:39well to be fair windows 8 felt really
0:05:41weird to Windows users all signed up you
0:05:44try like doing an edge swipe with the
0:05:46mouse cursor on a windows vm it's really
0:05:48hard
0:05:49Wow again in all fairness doing
0:05:51everything in Windows 8 is well just
0:05:54remember that was my life boys until
0:05:55just a couple weeks ago
0:05:56congratulations again for getting out of
0:05:58that thank you i'm so happy i really am
0:06:02at anyway we are gonna follow up
0:06:05we not thats it was it just too small
0:06:07items wow look at this girl let's
0:06:10celebrate by talking about something
0:06:11awesome alright our first bunch of this
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0:07:04that you
0:07:04ostensibly built for them they don't
0:07:06have to ask you they can ask where space
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0:07:10huge time savings if you're making up
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0:07:13you basically cut yourself out of the
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0:08:27there's been big breaking news that has
0:08:31happened since we recorded last and I
0:08:34think it's important we talk about it
0:08:36microsoft has bought xamarin sorry I
0:08:40just
0:08:41yeah at that is fine i I really
0:08:44appreciated your your your intro there
0:08:46didn't think much about salmon but if
0:08:49you had asked me hey I did some company
0:08:52owns a marine now I would have maybe
0:08:53guest microsoft I know like like netware
0:08:56on them at some point something like
0:08:58that yeah but I'd basically honest I'd
0:09:00lost track of who own them and they've
0:09:02been so closely associated with
0:09:03Microsoft that if you had told me oh
0:09:05yeah no microphone xamarin I was like oh
0:09:07yeah that sounds right so the fact that
0:09:09Michael bought them make sense to me
0:09:12I think yes let me let me catch everyone
0:09:14up so xamarin was originally called mono
0:09:19and it was an open-source reinforcement
0:09:22ation of dotnet that was designed to
0:09:24bring dotnet other platforms and
0:09:26initially this really meant linux but
0:09:28over time it became more about allowing
0:09:31you to write dotnet code usually c-sharp
0:09:34code that ran on Android and iOS and I
0:09:38looked at it way back when it was mano 1
0:09:40i'm sorry it was it was a long time ago
0:09:42right when they first started supporting
0:09:43the iphone forget what version that was
0:09:45and as we talked about a handful of
0:09:48times on the show
0:09:49it felt like exactly how I would have
0:09:51written a bridging platform to go
0:09:54between the world of C sharp and and iOS
0:09:58it that's a compliment it felt really
0:09:59really good now it's still a total hack
0:10:01but it it felt it felt like it was
0:10:05really well-designed and really really
0:10:06well done and so Microsoft has since
0:10:09bought samer in which again used to be
0:10:11called mono so now it's being folded
0:10:13into microsoft and this is kind of an
0:10:14extension of what they did a years so
0:10:17maybe two years ago when they open
0:10:19sourced a lot of the.net framework so in
0:10:21some parts see that salmon and other
0:10:24people like them could use Microsoft
0:10:26code in order to get the bits of dotnet
0:10:29they needed and then xamarin could go
0:10:31back to doing the things they were
0:10:32that which was just building that like
0:10:34cross-platform layer so Microsoft is
0:10:36buying xamarin we'll see what that means
0:10:38I'm this reminds me of our conversations
0:10:40in the past about project island would
0:10:42which was / is I haven't really kept up
0:10:46with it a cross-platform setup that
0:10:49microsoft had to bring iOS apps onto
0:10:52Windows 10
0:10:54I think that's mostly died is that true
0:10:56was it ever alive I mean like I know
0:10:57that they they have released that in
0:11:00some form and I know people look at the
0:11:01code and it was horrendous and full of
0:11:03tons of like temporary hacks and like to
0:11:06do implementations and everything and
0:11:08because wasn't like a real
0:11:09implementation of UI kit and on time was
0:11:11the idea and remember Kate didn't come
0:11:13out like right after Swift was announced
0:11:16and there and is not compatible Swift at
0:11:18all and so there was a tissue and then
0:11:20the other issue is yeah like they
0:11:21basically it tries to be a layer so that
0:11:23you can write use it basically can port
0:11:26your iOS app right over to windows phone
0:11:29or windows in general I don't know which
0:11:31version of windows but I right over to
0:11:33windows something or other and it was
0:11:35just really mentally all the all the
0:11:36basic I was frameworks and I honestly
0:11:39have not heard of anybody using it for
0:11:41any reason I mean the reason why iOS
0:11:44developers are not making their their
0:11:46apps for Windows is not because we can't
0:11:49cross compile them it's because we don't
0:11:51care because I'm going to the market
0:11:53literally I'm not trying to be mean it's
0:11:55like if you're if we wanted to make apps
0:11:57for those platforms we would just make
0:11:59them correctly you know it using their
0:12:01native tools in their native apps the
0:12:03fact that there's this weird half
0:12:05compatibility layer that is kind of
0:12:08half-baked and kind of half works and is
0:12:11probably only have supported by anybody
0:12:13that's not really gonna change anyone's
0:12:15mind meaningfully you know that that
0:12:16might help out a couple of consultants
0:12:19on really tight time constraints but
0:12:20even then like our clients have been
0:12:22asking for Windows apps like it isn't
0:12:25that just seems like there is so little
0:12:27demand and will for people to make
0:12:30Windows apps
0:12:31this is not going to meaningful change
0:12:33that now this was the nineties the old
0:12:36star was like don't bother trying to
0:12:39make a linux compatible implementation
0:12:41of
0:12:41the the common language runtime or.net
0:12:43because you're just playing at the
0:12:45microsoft trap and even though microsoft
0:12:47says all these things about oh you know
0:12:48cross-platform runtime virtual machine
0:12:51environment c-sharp blah blah
0:12:54really what they're just trying to do is
0:12:55trap you so that's why the linux
0:12:56computer you're always kind of looked at
0:12:58them you know with a little bit where
0:13:01Lee saying i don't really want to make
0:13:04any linux apps using the Microsoft no no
0:13:06it's not a microsoft technologies
0:13:07totally open it'll be just like I don't
0:13:09know about that and if we were still in
0:13:11the nineties and Microsoft was still
0:13:13like company that everyone was scared of
0:13:14and everyone suspected they were going
0:13:15to you know embrace extend extinguish
0:13:17all this other stuff whatever will be
0:13:19saying was see we were really smart not
0:13:21to try to build anything and linux based
0:13:23on the the common language runtime
0:13:24dotnet because if we did now Microsoft
0:13:26bought them and guess what all that
0:13:27cross-platform stuff that that they were
0:13:30doing before well that's all over now
0:13:31and everything that is examined is going
0:13:33to become windows-only another gonna be
0:13:35cross-platform anymore because you know
0:13:37it was just like it was a trap basically
0:13:38get people to distract Linux which is a
0:13:41big threat to microsoft and their mind
0:13:43back in the nineties and two to use
0:13:46microsoft technologies and then take
0:13:47those technologies away and make them
0:13:50provider that point but of course the
0:13:53modern microsoft by examine exactly the
0:13:55opposite reasons because their company
0:13:57that has shown that they're good at
0:13:58doing things cross platform and the new
0:14:00microsoft wants to sell whatever it is
0:14:03they have to sell to as many people as
0:14:05possible and then moving away from the
0:14:08only way to get this is to get it on
0:14:10windows you know as your web services
0:14:12are an example according iOS developers
0:14:14and stuff to you can use these web
0:14:16services with your iOS app will they'll
0:14:19they'll sell anything to anyone because
0:14:21they think they have valuable things and
0:14:22they're no longer in a position where
0:14:23they could say we have valuable
0:14:26technology and only way you can get it
0:14:28is to be microsoft and windows and
0:14:29proprietary top to bottom because nobody
0:14:31does that anymore it's not it's not like
0:14:32it's not even an option so I think this
0:14:35purchase of samurai would have blown the
0:14:37minds of like linux advocates in the
0:14:39nineties idea that they're buying them
0:14:40because they're so good across platform
0:14:42stuff that surely what they're going to
0:14:44do with those people and that technology
0:14:45is more clock cross-platform things not
0:14:48like oh now finally we can stop people
0:14:50from using our technology to do anything
0:14:53except for make apps for our platform
0:14:54so here's a question I don't you know I
0:14:58haven't looked too much into this so
0:15:00forgive me but you know back in the in
0:15:02the in the nineties when someone you
0:15:04know sun microsystems made this really
0:15:06really expensive custom proprietary
0:15:09hardware and software to run the custom
0:15:11son boxes and then son invented Java and
0:15:15Java who is seen by many as kind of a
0:15:17big strategic blunder by sun because the
0:15:20whole point of Java is to make
0:15:22proprietary platform and hardware
0:15:23completely irrelevant marginalize them
0:15:25and make the same software on everywhere
0:15:26and so many people think that was son
0:15:29kind of eroding their own companies
0:15:32strong points and their own revenue
0:15:33sources trying to apply that today I
0:15:36mean do you like what is microsoft get
0:15:39big picture wise long-term wise what did
0:15:41they get out of making linux servers a a
0:15:46first-class platform for.net development
0:15:49because right now Microsoft makes a big
0:15:52portion of the revenue with Windows
0:15:54servers and windows server side
0:15:55components and licensing from that and
0:15:58you know how does that obviously like
0:16:01with with with such a new Della's new
0:16:03leadership focus more on services and
0:16:05enterprise stuff it seems like this
0:16:07might be the opposite of what they
0:16:08wanted to do right like it seems like
0:16:10this is long-term removing them from
0:16:13from being required to use their tools
0:16:16so now you know like the server side
0:16:18stuff now like before
0:16:19so one of the biggest reasons why people
0:16:22would buy windows servers was not
0:16:24because they're particularly amazing but
0:16:26because they had to to run their dotnet
0:16:28server stuff because that stuff is what
0:16:30they were comfortable developing in or
0:16:32what they use already or what was best
0:16:33for them for whatever reason so windows
0:16:35had a lot of my client had a lot of a
0:16:37server-side software sales from people
0:16:40who are kind of forced to use windows
0:16:41server who might have chosen linux if
0:16:43they could have and with these and
0:16:45they're you know this the mono project
0:16:47and then the summer and things like this
0:16:49this is not new but it is it's always
0:16:52kind of been like a second class citizen
0:16:53it was always kinda like well if you
0:16:56were the IT manager you probably
0:16:57wouldn't choose that because you'd be
0:16:59you'd be scared of compatibility or
0:17:00whatever so what
0:17:03how does it help Microsoft now
0:17:05to have linux be or become soon a first
0:17:08class citizen to run their their server
0:17:11side stuff which means nobody wants
0:17:13nobody needs to buy windows server
0:17:14anymore
0:17:15why does it help Apple to open-source
0:17:17Swift it or let me rephrase why does it
0:17:22help Apple to make swift compatible with
0:17:24linux that's a better question
0:17:26well i think first of all that Apple
0:17:28needs Swift on linux because they need
0:17:31to run their own services on it I i
0:17:33think that that's a big thing right now
0:17:34with apple is that their services are
0:17:36are built on what was rumored to be a
0:17:41lot of web objects and old java stuff
0:17:43and just kinda just like old stuff that
0:17:45is that he either is not maintained
0:17:47anymore was maintained only by apple or
0:17:49is not the right tool for the job or
0:17:51just in disrepair and so I think Apple
0:17:53really wants Swift on linux for
0:17:57themselves for their own service
0:17:58division with Microsoft I don't know how
0:18:01much they need III don't know I I don't
0:18:02know that that's why I'm asking like
0:18:03this this is I don't know that is
0:18:05necessarily even a good question but
0:18:06just like it is a good idea for
0:18:08Microsoft long-term to to make Windows
0:18:11Server unnecessary but they make their
0:18:14money off windows server as much as they
0:18:16make it off exchange licenses and office
0:18:18licenses and stuff and like they're like
0:18:20the Oracle is a great example
0:18:22oracle is enterprise software company
0:18:23that makes tons and tons of money and
0:18:28they don't sell that they don't force
0:18:29you to buy an operating system i mean
0:18:31they do have oracle enterprise linux
0:18:32right but it's linux right that they
0:18:34don't sell hardware uh they're just
0:18:36selling you their software and it's
0:18:38qualified and certain piece of hardware
0:18:40and his relationships with people who
0:18:41will sell you the hardware and what OS
0:18:43you should have or whatever but that's
0:18:45when you sell what they're going to do
0:18:47what i want to use it and exchange
0:18:49license for certain number of people to
0:18:51remember and it's not as if doing this
0:18:54makes it more likely that there will be
0:18:56in a successful exchange competitor like
0:18:58Google's always tried to do with Google
0:18:59Apps and everything which is entirely
0:19:00different approach and much more server
0:19:02side but as far as Marcus officers
0:19:03concerned you mentioned like Apple I
0:19:05call apple has unlimited service of
0:19:06course they want to work on linux it's
0:19:08not unreasonable to imagine that
0:19:10Microsoft might decide kind of like I
0:19:14mean you talk about some before one of
0:19:15things did son-in-law
0:19:16was linux right the idea that you can
0:19:19only run exchange on a Windows Server
0:19:21it's crappy for kind of everyone
0:19:24including Microsoft Word Microsoft ever
0:19:26want to you know can you imagine a world
0:19:29where microsoft sold you exchange an
0:19:31office all which ran on the links of
0:19:33your choice but a couple that microsoft
0:19:35recommends including maybe Microsoft
0:19:36variant of linux sure because if that
0:19:39means that that Microsoft doesn't have
0:19:41to spend money maintaining a proprietary
0:19:43server is that was never quite as good
0:19:44as linux anyway that's a win that's
0:19:47sacrilege and like the Steve Ballmer
0:19:48think what are you talking about Windows
0:19:49is the crown jewel and blah blah but
0:19:51this is a brave new world here if you're
0:19:52really gonna do services
0:19:54you can't be tied to a particular server
0:19:58platform especially when it's one that's
0:19:59like more difficult to manage it has
0:20:01fewer companies behind in linux is
0:20:03basically raced across the entire server
0:20:06side ecosystem erasing every single
0:20:08proprietary competitor so much so that
0:20:10former primary competitors say okay well
0:20:12we'll just have own variant of linux and
0:20:14everyone's okay with that and just like
0:20:15that's like that part of the ecosystem
0:20:17has not been become the part where you
0:20:20make your money and enterprise has never
0:20:21been you make money of support contracts
0:20:23and licensing and and charging procedure
0:20:25/ cpu or whatever that you do you don't
0:20:27make it off selling them are Hardware
0:20:29boxes or os licenses
0:20:31yeah I couldn't agree with that enough I
0:20:33remember being tangentially involved
0:20:36with pricing quotes for things like
0:20:38sharepoint and his talk and all of these
0:20:41big big big software packages that are
0:20:44not the server these are the things here
0:20:46installing windows server and I can't
0:20:49remember the details now but oftentimes
0:20:50was by processor then when wen
0:20:52multi-core processors became a thing I
0:20:55think at some point some software might
0:20:56have been moved to a bike or
0:20:58installation costs so if you have a 15
0:21:02Corps computer that doesn't make any
0:21:04sense a 16-core computer with you know I
0:21:07don't know four processors then you're
0:21:09paying 16 times whatever the single
0:21:12amount is like they make absurd amounts
0:21:15of money off of the software just
0:21:17comically large amounts of money off the
0:21:18software and to come back to it one of
0:21:21your original questions Marco like why
0:21:22would why would what what is microsoft
0:21:25in what did they get out of this i think
0:21:28what Microsoft gets out of this
0:21:30is they it would be neat for them if
0:21:34writing C sharp was kind of the lingua
0:21:38franca of server-side programming and
0:21:40obviously there will never be one
0:21:41language that's that's the standard
0:21:43language of server-side programming but
0:21:45in the same way that java is huge today
0:21:47in part because it's open source so much
0:21:51of that is going open source now that
0:21:53why couldn't a dotnet be the new Java in
0:21:57the future and because it's the old Java
0:21:59well that's better than the old Java
0:22:02it's a lot as it has better support you
0:22:04know me like that especially now that
0:22:05son has been gobbled up and everything
0:22:08like who is I mean I guess java lurches
0:22:10forward but if anyone was going to
0:22:12compete against java as like Casey says
0:22:14the sort of default safe enterprise
0:22:17server side language it would be C sharp
0:22:19and part of the thing it's been hurting
0:22:21microsoft story is here but then we
0:22:24gotta buy windows servers and everyone
0:22:25knows that feeling like especially if
0:22:27you have an organization that has all
0:22:29their other servers that are living
0:22:30space then everyone's happy with them
0:22:31and they're all they have to have an
0:22:33entire organization built up around
0:22:34managing those servers and like the idea
0:22:36that they can buy different hardware
0:22:37from different vendors and and change
0:22:39you know different distributions and
0:22:41everything like that and then someone
0:22:42comes in and says hey you guys should
0:22:43use a sharp and write all your services
0:22:46seven sharp using this service side
0:22:48frame working at the end like hopin we
0:22:50have to introduce windows servers and
0:22:52nobody wants that like you can't really
0:22:53mix it up it's almost like they keep
0:22:54those people separate like you have one
0:22:56set of people who manage the the
0:22:59linux-based servers and one set of
0:23:02people who manage the window space
0:23:03service and I don't know if you bring
0:23:04people to the same room that they were
0:23:05just collide annihilate and i think the
0:23:10other thing we should say a couple quick
0:23:11notes first of all csharp is great
0:23:14language you really really is i know
0:23:15they're going to be people out there who
0:23:17are rolling their eyes but truly c-sharp
0:23:19is a wonderful wonderful language that
0:23:21can be many many many different things
0:23:23too many many many different people and
0:23:25i've been writing a lot of Swift over
0:23:27the last couple of weeks and i'm really
0:23:29loving Swift but csharp is also a truly
0:23:32wonderful language and fixes many of the
0:23:35ills that java brought to the table and
0:23:38let's assume for a second that you're
0:23:42firm or your staff is really into
0:23:44c-sharp l maybe they've never touched
0:23:47Microsoft servers but they're really
0:23:50into c sharp and they think to
0:23:51themselves man i really want to go to
0:23:54the cloud with the c-sharp instead of
0:23:56staying on premise with linux or
0:23:57on-premises with Microsoft it doesn't
0:23:59matter what cloud environment should we
0:24:02go to we could just go to Azure which
0:24:05probably will do very well with AC sharp
0:24:08base deployment and even faster is is
0:24:11Microsoft service behind-the-scenes who
0:24:12cares because you don't have to worry
0:24:14about it anyway so i think that there's
0:24:17plenty to gain from Microsoft by doing
0:24:19this but we'll see what really ends up
0:24:22happening about I don't know how much
0:24:23Sam and specifically will make a
0:24:25difference but the idea of Microsoft
0:24:26pushing to being everywhere are to
0:24:30having two sharp everywhere i think is a
0:24:31good thing
0:24:32John any other last thoughts you have a
0:24:34one minor point of speaking about the
0:24:37oracle and sun yes of course Oracle was
0:24:38the company the bots on which means that
0:24:40oracle does actually sell hardware
0:24:41narrow because some used to sell
0:24:42hardware and now Oracle software through
0:24:45sounds they sell ZFS storage devices and
0:24:46stuff like that thing does that count
0:24:49I'll count is that kind of the day
0:24:52ZFS storage devices there are file
0:24:54systems on them
0:24:55I don't think it counts but that's a
0:24:57tough one right over so i rescind i
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0:26:30for sponsorship yes so there's been some
0:26:32interesting things going on with the
0:26:34United States government and apple and I
0:26:37don't even I do we really need to recap
0:26:40this I guess we probably should give the
0:26:41short version of an overview would be
0:26:43helpful for people who listen in the
0:26:45future
0:26:46yeah although anyone listening store in
0:26:48real time as we know that the star came
0:26:49out right after recorded last week so
0:26:51presumably everyone listening to the
0:26:53show when it's released knows all the
0:26:54details but we should summarize is does
0:26:57that mean I'm the one summarizing I can
0:26:59we can take a crack at it real quick you
0:27:01do seem to be the chief summarizer on
0:27:03the show maybe John you and John is
0:27:05arced are closed for that I don't know
0:27:06co-chief summarizer i'm certainly not so
0:27:09i know i'm saying i can sit back and
0:27:10drink my tea right how about I'll take a
0:27:12stab at it here and you guys can
0:27:14interrupt your ready so there was a
0:27:18terrible terrible terrible shooting in
0:27:20december i believe last year in San
0:27:22Bernardino California a couple of people
0:27:25took it upon themselves to commit this
0:27:28really heinous act and kill a lot of
0:27:29people and that's really really terrible
0:27:31and there's no there's no discussion
0:27:33about that it's it's terrible
0:27:35it was a terrorist act it it's something
0:27:38that's really unfortunate these two
0:27:40people suspects perpetrators whatever we
0:27:42like to call them they one of them it
0:27:44was a husband-wife pair of the husband
0:27:47had two phones two iphones as far as we
0:27:50know one of them was destroyed that was
0:27:52his personal phone his wife's personal
0:27:53phone also destroyed
0:27:55he also had an iphone 5c that was issued
0:27:57to him by his job which coincidentally
0:28:00is the San Bernardino government the
0:28:04iphone 5c has passcode on it
0:28:06and it is quite possible that if you it
0:28:10could be set up such that if you enter
0:28:12the passcode incorrectly ten times in a
0:28:14row it will nuke everything on the phone
0:28:16the iphone is in the custody of the
0:28:20federal bureau of investigation the FBI
0:28:23the FBI wants what's on that phone but
0:28:26they can't get to it because it has this
0:28:28passcode it could have the destruction
0:28:31setting turned on such that if they
0:28:33enter the wrong code ten times it will
0:28:36destroy itself or destroy all the data
0:28:38additionally they were advised by apple
0:28:41at some point or another hey we have
0:28:45iCloud backup so we don't have any from
0:28:47the last six or so weeks I forget
0:28:48exactly how many it doesn't really
0:28:50matter
0:28:51we don't have a recent like iCloud
0:28:53backup we have a semi recent one and you
0:28:56know what you should do is you should
0:28:57take the phone and bring it to this
0:28:58guy's work where presumably there is a
0:29:02known a Wi-Fi network and you should
0:29:05turn the phone on and just let it sit
0:29:06overnight plug-in let it sit overnight
0:29:08and presumably if everything has been
0:29:10set the way it usually is set that will
0:29:13back up the thermal back itself up to
0:29:15iCloud one more time and it
0:29:18the implication from what we've read is
0:29:20that not everything in iCloud as well
0:29:22encrypted as perhaps we'd like it to be
0:29:24thus Apple could get to that data and
0:29:27handed over to the FBI and everyone's
0:29:28happy
0:29:29I'm actually honestly I'm pretty sure
0:29:30from Apple's point of view
0:29:32nothing I cloud is encrypted is so every
0:29:34big you can you can do the encrypted
0:29:36backups through itunes on your desktop
0:29:38and is off by default so for a while as
0:29:41we all learned whenever we get a new
0:29:42phone or phone with diabetic a
0:29:43replacement on with the render all our
0:29:46passwords and the reason why is because
0:29:48anything is encrypted on the device in
0:29:50the keychain which is all your passwords
0:29:52and stuff restored the by any
0:29:55unencrypted backup does not include
0:29:57those things so by default the itunes
0:29:59back up to and including unless you
0:30:01check little boxing and keep my backup
0:30:02which we all do because we are
0:30:04professional iphone restores but not
0:30:06everyone knows that and then with iCloud
0:30:08backups there is no option to encrypt
0:30:10iCloud backups at least not today maybe
0:30:12in the future there will be as a result
0:30:14of this but they are encrypted but Apple
0:30:16has the key
0:30:16alright so they aren't yet they are
0:30:18encrypted to apple
0:30:19no and so as a result nothing that's
0:30:22that's encrypted on the phone in key
0:30:24chain gets backed up so but it almost
0:30:26everything like any kind of like content
0:30:28you know text messages I i assume would
0:30:31be there any kind of you know appdata
0:30:33that's that's marked as be as being for
0:30:37backup
0:30:38so documents you've made an appt and
0:30:39everything those would be included an
0:30:41apple had access to all those an apple
0:30:43gave access to all of those to the FBI
0:30:45before this even blew up and became a
0:30:47thing because apple had access to them
0:30:49through my club but they only had an
0:30:51older backup if several weeks old it
0:30:52doesn't matter how many so they advise
0:30:56the FBI in san bernardino please take
0:30:58the phone to the San Bernardino
0:30:59government whatever particular branch is
0:31:00this person was in leave it on overnight
0:31:02and it all back yourself up to iCloud at
0:31:05which point the police and FBI awkwardly
0:31:08grabbed their collars pulling them away
0:31:09from their necks and said about that we
0:31:13might have changed his iCloud password
0:31:15already so that phone is gonna try to
0:31:20back up to iCloud maybe and it's going
0:31:23to see that it doesn't really have the
0:31:25right password so that's not gonna work
0:31:28right so the FBI's decided to ask Apple
0:31:33for a few things
0:31:36it's that it would like apple to write a
0:31:38custom build of iOS that as far as the
0:31:42FBI is concerned they are happy to be
0:31:44signed in such a way that it would only
0:31:47work on this particular device it will
0:31:50allow them to it will bypass the setting
0:31:54that will self-destruct the encryption
0:31:57after ten failed password attempts so
0:32:00they can attempt as many as I'd like
0:32:02additionally they like any sort of time
0:32:05delay to go away if there is one and I
0:32:08forget exactly when those came in when
0:32:09they're when they're when they're not
0:32:10but suffice to say there is a time delay
0:32:12they'd like to go away and additionally
0:32:13they like to be able to enter the
0:32:14passcode not by media fingers on the
0:32:16screen but by bluetooth or Wi-Fi or a
0:32:19cable or anyway so that it can be
0:32:22automated with an external computer
0:32:24the FBI is said we'd like to do it at
0:32:26our place or apple if you'd prefer we
0:32:28can do it at your house
0:32:30that's fine too the the endgame for the
0:32:32FBI
0:32:33is that they want to be able to throw a
0:32:36gazillion passcodes at this thing in a
0:32:38very short window of time to brute force
0:32:40their way into it so that by some
0:32:45measures and we'll get into what we
0:32:46think here in a second but some people
0:32:49will are of the opinion that that's a
0:32:50perfectly reasonable point of view from
0:32:52the FBI that they only wanted for one
0:32:55phone
0:32:56they only want to do it this once and
0:32:58they they're even willing to have apple
0:33:00do it in in cupertino and Apple's own
0:33:03environment and the FBI will either come
0:33:05to them or if Apple gives them like
0:33:07remote access to a machine that can
0:33:10enter passcode the FBI will do it
0:33:12remotely they don't care they just
0:33:13wanted this one time for this one phone
0:33:15to see if possibly maybe something on
0:33:19that will indicate that this was part of
0:33:21a wider terrorist plot rather than a
0:33:23couple of crazy people doing something
0:33:25that is really really on just uncool
0:33:28that's the FBI's perspective apples
0:33:31perspective is hey if we do this once
0:33:34that's establishing a legal precedent
0:33:36that means you can ask us to do this
0:33:38many many more times
0:33:40not only that but we would have to write
0:33:43code to do this and that seems a bit
0:33:44unreasonable to tell us to write a bunch
0:33:46of code to allow you to tu brute force
0:33:50your way into a phone that we've spent a
0:33:52long time trying to make sure that isn't
0:33:55possible
0:33:56beyond that a lot of government entities
0:34:00have come out of the woodwork over the
0:34:01last 48 hours saying you know what if
0:34:04this works for the FBI we have a bunch
0:34:06of iphones we'd like to do that for two
0:34:08ok cool sounds great so Apple is of the
0:34:11opinion that this is a backdoor and
0:34:13again we'll get into what we think in a
0:34:15second but apple says this is a backdoor
0:34:17and in fact just earlier today Tim Cook
0:34:20was didn't it especially with ABC News
0:34:23where he used the analogy that creating
0:34:27this is like creating a software version
0:34:28of cancer which by the way i think a
0:34:30virus would be a better analogy there
0:34:32then test as well yeah I thought he
0:34:36hammered that analogy a little too hard
0:34:39because it isn't that great of one he
0:34:41had
0:34:42a handful of talking points and
0:34:43unfortunately the interviewer had more
0:34:44than a handful of questions so it was
0:34:46just like after the first round was like
0:34:48which one of my talking points am I
0:34:50going to use a reply for this question
0:34:52yeah it was the same thing just over and
0:34:54over and over again which is really too
0:34:55bad but in any case so apples of the
0:34:58opinion this is a backdoor once we've
0:35:00done this once we're going to be asked
0:35:02to do it a thousand times we don't think
0:35:03it's fair to do it even once we don't
0:35:05think it's fair to us we don't think
0:35:07it's fair to our customers were not into
0:35:09it so the Apple is saying we're not
0:35:11going to do it and more than that
0:35:14Tim Cook said in this interview we are
0:35:17willing to go all the way to the Supreme
0:35:18Court fighting this because we think
0:35:20that's what's right is that a pretty
0:35:22reasonable summary of where we are today
0:35:24pretty much I mean like there's a lot
0:35:27more detail here that we could just just
0:35:29by stating everything we have either
0:35:32learned or that's been talked about over
0:35:33the last week or so since is really
0:35:35broke we could fill the whole hour and a
0:35:38half with this and we shouldn't because
0:35:40they'll take too long i think let's
0:35:42assume that everyone who wants to know
0:35:43more about this will will go and read up
0:35:45on whatever is new and whatever has
0:35:47happened so far and i think it's
0:35:49probably safe for us to talk about it
0:35:50now rather than just keep going over the
0:35:53details of it right
0:35:54good deal that's what we think it makes
0:35:58me sad every part of this makes me sad
0:36:00there there's so much of this that is
0:36:02that is just like crappy politics
0:36:05playing each other out and that mostly
0:36:08on the government's honestly I mean
0:36:09listeners of the show should know that
0:36:12we do not we do not shy away from
0:36:15criticizing Apple when it is warranted
0:36:18we will call them out on things that we
0:36:20think are BS or things that we think are
0:36:22worse than they should be or not or are
0:36:24just not you know not good enough in
0:36:26this case though I think I i think apple
0:36:30is mostly in the right and not a hundred
0:36:33percent in the right because and and
0:36:36again we should point also you know none
0:36:37of us for lawyers so you know I
0:36:40apologize to anybody listening to those
0:36:42who knows more about the law that we do
0:36:44who's screaming at whatever we don't
0:36:46mention or get wrong but I that the one
0:36:50thing that I think makes us a weaker
0:36:53argument for them
0:36:54is that it is technically possible for
0:36:57them to do this and I wonder in the
0:37:00future you know I I assume it's already
0:37:02somebody's project Apple it wasn't
0:37:04already i assume it is now somebody's
0:37:06project project of Apple 22 head and
0:37:08effort to actually make this impossible
0:37:10to do in the future to remove their
0:37:12technical ability to do anything like
0:37:14this and there are a number of ways that
0:37:16they could do that their number of
0:37:18challenges to that but ultimately i
0:37:21think i've mostly agree with apple that
0:37:24they i stand with them that they that
0:37:27they ideally shouldn't do this but it
0:37:30does weaken their argument a little bit
0:37:32that they can do it when you say can do
0:37:35it what you mean is I don't let me put
0:37:37words in my mouth and just make sure
0:37:38we're on the same page
0:37:39what you mean is they could write a
0:37:41custom version of iOS that is
0:37:43specifically for this one and only one
0:37:46phone that would get the FBI what
0:37:48they're asking for
0:37:49I think now first of all it is
0:37:51definitely worth reading this article
0:37:53and please forgive me for the
0:37:55presentation to get it wrong by Jonathan
0:37:57Villar ski he died i don't i don't know
0:38:01him but he appears to be somebody who
0:38:03specializes in iOS forensics and like
0:38:06testifying in court using iOS forensic
0:38:10tools and creating forensic tools and
0:38:12his his post here kind of explains that
0:38:14the legal implications of everything
0:38:16apple kind of have to do if they make
0:38:17this instrument the FBI's demand that
0:38:19they make
0:38:20I don't think the FBI is really asking
0:38:22for justice one phone to be decrypted
0:38:24once and that's it i think they're
0:38:26asking for the the continuous ability to
0:38:29do this you know whenever it is
0:38:31warranted or whenever there is a quarter
0:38:34or want to do it so it and even if they
0:38:37aren't asking for that now that's really
0:38:39what they're asking for like you know
0:38:41you like even if they're not asking for
0:38:42that in in the legal text that is what
0:38:45will happen here because this will set
0:38:46precedent and then it'll be so much
0:38:48easier next time someone asks for this
0:38:50to be like oh well you did it for that
0:38:52he this was important you know and and I
0:38:54think to cover that pretty well honestly
0:38:56I ultimately i think his interview on
0:38:58ABC news i watched it right before the
0:38:59show tonight i think is if you actually
0:39:01was very good overall there there were
0:39:03some parts that were a little bit
0:39:05uncomfortable and cringe-worthy but
0:39:06overall
0:39:07I think it was very good and I think he
0:39:09might very well and I think I think at a
0:39:12time like this
0:39:14this really shows this the strength of
0:39:17tim cook and and how how we are lucky to
0:39:20have to cook as the CEO of Apple during
0:39:22times like this I could not agree more
0:39:25this is exactly like where he shines
0:39:27like he is he is clearly and he said he
0:39:29shows in the past but you know this just
0:39:31you know shows more now he's clearly
0:39:33very principled and he won't be pushed
0:39:36around you know if it goes against his
0:39:39principles and and I think this is this
0:39:41just shows I mean you're not going to
0:39:43see any other company or any other
0:39:45executive put up the fight that he's
0:39:47going to put up on this it's simple as
0:39:48that I mean like you're not going to see
0:39:49anyone better than him fight this on
0:39:51that side of it that you know it again i
0:39:54could nitpick little few little things
0:39:55he said but overall I thought it was
0:39:57very good
0:39:58so honestly I i really do think that
0:40:01Apple is totally in the right to fight
0:40:04this only again only with an asterisk
0:40:06that it sure would be better if their
0:40:09actual answer was we actually can't
0:40:12technically do this it is impossible
0:40:13because then it's then it's you can
0:40:16argue whether that whether it should be
0:40:17legal to make things like that but you
0:40:19can't argue about this case anymore then
0:40:21because everyone's playing on everyone's
0:40:23emotions on this ever like and Tim do
0:40:24this to with his responses and he kinda
0:40:26had to but like you know like at the
0:40:28interviewers like well think about the
0:40:30victims and the FBI all about this is
0:40:32this is that this isn't about our
0:40:33ability to decrypt phones forever it's
0:40:34about these 14 families victims and yes
0:40:36it is it is about them and this horrible
0:40:39event happened this people were killed
0:40:41is that there is no there's nothing
0:40:43about that that is anything but horrible
0:40:45and a huge tragedy but the FBI is also
0:40:48using this for their political gain
0:40:50they knew that they set this case up as
0:40:52a perfect fighting battleground to fight
0:40:55this issue on that they believe they are
0:40:58entitled in this is not just the FBI
0:41:00this is all law enforcement and federal
0:41:03intelligence in America they believe
0:41:05they are entitled to access any
0:41:08information and any possessions and any
0:41:11people that they want to that they
0:41:13believe they need to get their job in or
0:41:15they just think might be a problem or
0:41:17might be relevant to crimes that might
0:41:18happen or might have
0:41:19happened they believe they're entitled
0:41:21to it all and they get it most of the
0:41:24time you know like I'm a quick walk with
0:41:26us look at everything we've learned from
0:41:28Edward Snowden's revelations about the
0:41:29NSA of the last couple years and and
0:41:31everything that's spun out from that
0:41:32it's very clear and a beat between that
0:41:35and between things that happened at
0:41:38lower levels of law enforcement whether
0:41:40just you know murdering people getting
0:41:41away with it it's very clear that long
0:41:45look at the culture of law enforcement
0:41:46in the whole country from from national
0:41:48down to local is incredibly entitled and
0:41:52and just kind of mad at they operate
0:41:55like a lawless military dictatorship and
0:41:58where they they are entitled to
0:42:01everything they want in their minds and
0:42:05they usually get it and even when it's
0:42:07illegal
0:42:08they do it anyway and they get away with
0:42:10it most of the time if I'd all the time
0:42:12they get they can with it almost all the
0:42:14time so they they are above the law in
0:42:17their minds they they believe they are
0:42:18entitled to everything and they'll say
0:42:20it's about national security but you
0:42:21know that's what that's what kind of
0:42:22like Angry macho neocon craziness in
0:42:26reality like that this culture they have
0:42:29is that they are entitled to everything
0:42:31all the time and whatever they want
0:42:33they're entitled to do their job you
0:42:35know whatever they think they're
0:42:36entitled to everything right and our
0:42:38country so far in recent years if not
0:42:41ever in recent years supports that we we
0:42:44support bye-bye what judges say by what
0:42:47the people do and don't get mad about by
0:42:49how quickly we all forget things we the
0:42:53people and the courts and all the way up
0:42:55to the presidency everyone in this
0:42:58system is complacent and permits this to
0:43:00happen so the reality is it doesn't
0:43:02really matter what's legal here
0:43:04what matters is what we will tolerate
0:43:06and they know that and so that's why
0:43:08they're playing his emotional buttons
0:43:09you know they're talking about the
0:43:10victims and families and Tim's talking
0:43:12about kids being you know if we know the
0:43:14location your kids this is why this this
0:43:16whole thing just makes me so sad it
0:43:18really does because I how she's I mean
0:43:21then let's just say that there's a read
0:43:24that there are reasons I don't usually
0:43:25talk about politics you know if you
0:43:27think I'm like negative and bitter about
0:43:29apple stuff this this is how i feel
0:43:31about politics
0:43:32I try to avoid as a topic for my own
0:43:34happiness insanity
0:43:36I just want to make one quick thought
0:43:38and then I'd like to hear what John us
0:43:40to say about this but as I was watching
0:43:42this interview tonight which I think was
0:43:44a little bit unfortunate because as you
0:43:46had said or one of us said yeah it was
0:43:48the same talking points from both sides
0:43:50just repeated over and over i feel like
0:43:52the entire interview could have been
0:43:53like four and a half minutes long but
0:43:55anyway I I caught myself sitting there
0:43:58listening to this and I thought to
0:43:59myself this is why we have Tim Cook you
0:44:02know this is why Tim Cook is here is for
0:44:04this very moment right now because I
0:44:07don't doubt that maybe Steve Jobs
0:44:09would've fought at the same way to ms
0:44:10but I don't know if you would have done
0:44:12as good a job at it and I am so
0:44:16unbelievably proud of tim cook and all
0:44:18of apple for standing up for what I
0:44:20believe to be right and for doing the
0:44:22right thing because this is not easy for
0:44:23really either side or anyone involved
0:44:26but particularly for apple and all the
0:44:30credit in the world to Apple as you said
0:44:31we have a tendency to to call it like we
0:44:33see it and sometimes we see it to be not
0:44:35so not so sunny but I I could not be
0:44:38more proud of appleton cook than I am
0:44:39right now
0:44:40John what do you have to say about all
0:44:41this I was thinking about how their job
0:44:44to handle that interview like at the
0:44:45very least he would have I mean Steve
0:44:47Jobs has more sort of natural charisma
0:44:50that then Tim Cook I I I feel like a lot
0:44:54of things when you're watching it if you
0:44:55are if you're supportive of apples
0:44:58position in this the interviewer asks
0:45:01the leading questions to try to you know
0:45:02get that get him to say something and
0:45:05Tim would just go back to his talking
0:45:07points not falling for the trap jobs
0:45:09would have said the things that were
0:45:10thinking like the sort of you know come
0:45:13back at him and you know take take more
0:45:15digs at the government and law
0:45:16enforcement Orton was always like you
0:45:18know we respect lon far as we want to
0:45:19work with them you want to work together
0:45:20jobs would have been to let the fact
0:45:23that he's pissed been you know be clear
0:45:26that he's pissed analysis is going unit
0:45:28to cook a little bit closer now it's a
0:45:30question whether that would have been
0:45:31actually better in terms of PR just you
0:45:33know it would be more satisfying for
0:45:35people who agree with them already would
0:45:37have been any more convincing people who
0:45:38don't in the court of public opinion I
0:45:40don't know
0:45:40so anyway that's that's a sideshow one
0:45:43thing that Marco said that stuck out to
0:45:45me was the idea that this feels worse
0:45:47because Apple can technically do this
0:45:49and again I don't want a lawyer I don't
0:45:52know about the legal consequences but
0:45:53when I think about it I think that is
0:45:55not relevant at all because of legal the
0:45:59question was is there's this two parts
0:46:01this one is the but Marco alluded to
0:46:03when he said well we better if they made
0:46:04a system that Apple couldn't break into
0:46:06prison they were just Apple to say well
0:46:08you know we can't do anything oh well
0:46:10sorry we can't help you like technically
0:46:12we can help you there's nothing we could
0:46:13do all the money and all the time in the
0:46:15world wouldn't solve this for us that
0:46:18immediately leads to okay we're just
0:46:20going to outlaw cryptography which is
0:46:21that it would be in terrible stupid rule
0:46:23because you cannot math and you know so
0:46:26whatever so that's one end of that but
0:46:29that's that's what I think this case is
0:46:30about when I think about it is just
0:46:33because Apple can do it doesn't mean the
0:46:34government can order them to do it like
0:46:37the government can't make any one of its
0:46:41citizens or corporations or entities or
0:46:43whatever do it compel them to do
0:46:46something just because they feel like it
0:46:48right there has to be established law as
0:46:50in when we issue you a search warrant
0:46:52you have to let us search right that's
0:46:54you know you can't just say you know it
0:46:56would be nice family wrote you know a
0:46:58custom operating system let's crack it
0:47:00into this phone
0:47:01yeah that would be nice wouldn't it but
0:47:02do you the government have the power to
0:47:04compel the corporation to do work for
0:47:06you because you think it would be cool
0:47:07like that that's why this is a legal
0:47:09case like this will be decided in the
0:47:11courts in with legislation and so on and
0:47:12so forth but the idea like Marco said
0:47:15that law enforcement you know they can
0:47:17technically do this when we just ask
0:47:19them to can we make them do that aren't
0:47:21we like in charge here like and the
0:47:23answer is no you can't really make them
0:47:25and have apple doesn't want to they're
0:47:26gonna challenge you and you're going to
0:47:27go through the legal system and try to
0:47:28figure out whether this is something you
0:47:29can even ask them to do so i always
0:47:32think it was as the notes here
0:47:34cryptography vs conscription can you can
0:47:37script a corporation to write software
0:47:39on your behalf you are law enforcement
0:47:41because you feel like it not based on
0:47:43any existing law on the books or any
0:47:45legal precedent over just because it's a
0:47:48thing that's possible and one of the
0:47:49things i think about that
0:47:50this is the same thing at all but like
0:47:51the idea that individuals and
0:47:54corporations can have rights
0:47:56the idea that the government can't
0:47:58demand that you testify against yourself
0:48:02you have the right to remain silent
0:48:04they cannot compel you to speak against
0:48:06yourself they may ask you you know where
0:48:08you were you on the date such and such
0:48:09and if they're accusing or something you
0:48:11can just not answer them and they can't
0:48:13compel you to answer because it is you
0:48:15could answer all it's much worse because
0:48:17you know you have a voice you could
0:48:19answer them if you want to i want your
0:48:20answer the question
0:48:21they can't compel you to because its
0:48:22your right to keep them and again this
0:48:24may or may not be speech or whatever but
0:48:26the whole idea that someone is capable
0:48:28of doing something does not mean well if
0:48:29you're capable of doing it
0:48:31the government should be able to compel
0:48:32you to do it that's it doesn't make any
0:48:33sense so that has to be sorted out in
0:48:35the law and then conceptually since
0:48:39we're late to the story and everyone's
0:48:40gone through all the details and we went
0:48:41through a lot of them already anyway the
0:48:44thing that really boggles my mind about
0:48:46this conceptually is like the the short
0:48:50view so many people have like people
0:48:51think you know people who are on the
0:48:52wrong side of this issue as in people
0:48:54who don't agree with me right
0:48:55I the incredible short view that like
0:48:58just big picture like pull back from
0:49:00this issue pull back from this one phone
0:49:02pull back from details about like how
0:49:04it's been since tailor-made to set a
0:49:06legal precedent and now you know like
0:49:08all the details of the other things want
0:49:11to decode stuff on whether you can do it
0:49:12with this one phone and think of the
0:49:13children and the terrorists victims and
0:49:15also the stuff in the details whether
0:49:17there's anything on the phone and and
0:49:18you know also by the way the code is
0:49:20probably 11 or 11 or 12 34 they just try
0:49:23this too close and will be unlocked but
0:49:24even if they did they would quickly lock
0:49:26it again because that's not what this is
0:49:27about yeah i mean if also if you're
0:49:29talking about like what's most likely
0:49:30has nothing on the phone yeah it's me
0:49:31way more likely that like that the
0:49:34person's work phone that he they had
0:49:36personal phones that they destroyed or
0:49:39were described it
0:49:40yeah it's very it's way more like the
0:49:41work phone has nothing useful on it but
0:49:43the FBI knows that and they that that's
0:49:46why this isn't about that it's about you
0:49:48know they they chose this case to
0:49:51publicize they chose to publicize it not
0:49:53and not do the negotiations and secret
0:49:56where Apple Apple requested they chose
0:49:58this because they knew that emotionally
0:50:02is that like the the will of the people
0:50:04would probably be on their side because
0:50:06they can play the angles of terrorism
0:50:08and victims and everything like all that
0:50:10that's what i'm getting at the the will
0:50:12of the people all right so i would be
0:50:14speaking to the people at this point
0:50:15that people who don't agree this is the
0:50:17right thing to do just keep pulling back
0:50:20from this case from this thing from
0:50:22phones from encryption from all the
0:50:24details or whatever and just think over
0:50:26the last several decades or whatever the
0:50:29general trend in American government has
0:50:31been people being afraid and looking for
0:50:36anyone who promises to make them safer
0:50:38and giving up rights to get that imagine
0:50:41safety from 9-11 on but even before that
0:50:43the whole idea was it if you scare
0:50:45enough people and say we can you know
0:50:48someone is going to kill you and your
0:50:49family unless we can tap all your
0:50:51telephone calls and read all your mail
0:50:53and all-you-can-eat like whatever it is
0:50:55just just a general trend of you put on
0:50:57a graph knew you could argue about
0:50:58specifics or whatever but there's no
0:50:59arguing that the general trend has been
0:51:01away from civil liberties and towards
0:51:04government has access to more and more
0:51:06stuff and that has been motivated
0:51:08generally by people being afraid either
0:51:10people making them afraid or people who
0:51:12generally being afraid of people take
0:51:13advantage of that fear to say now we in
0:51:15law enforcement can do our job better
0:51:17because you're afraid you need to give
0:51:19us these rights and time and again but
0:51:22law enforcement government proven that
0:51:23once they get the right they don't give
0:51:25him back the using the ways that they
0:51:26didn't say that they said they weren't
0:51:28going to use them the abuse them
0:51:30there's no repercussions for that and
0:51:32it's a ratcheting mechanism but never
0:51:33slide the other direction only goes to
0:51:35more and more and technology is enabling
0:51:36to do this now every individual point
0:51:39you can argue with like oh do I agree
0:51:40about this and what about phone
0:51:42wiretapping what about Snowden or
0:51:43whatever you can argue every individual
0:51:45point when you put it on a big graph
0:51:46this is a massive trend a massive
0:51:48long-term trend away from civil
0:51:50liberties and towards a loss of
0:51:53individual rights right
0:51:54specifically when it comes to law
0:51:56enforcement surveillance and privacy and
0:51:59so even in this individual case you just
0:52:02have to like you have to color all of
0:52:03your thinking to say is should we just
0:52:06continue to play out this thing on these
0:52:08individual battles slowly ratcheting our
0:52:10way up
0:52:11how does this all end like such a long
0:52:13slide you have to at some point say
0:52:15there's a limit you just can't keep
0:52:17asking for more and more and more and
0:52:19generations of people living and dying
0:52:21and just getting used to what the
0:52:22government does until like you just
0:52:24can't keep going in that direction
0:52:25forever it has to be a pendulum it has
0:52:27to be a cycle there has to be a swing
0:52:29and at some point you have to start
0:52:31swinging in the other direction some
0:52:32point the people you know your fear of
0:52:35being killed by terrorists has to be
0:52:36trumped by the granted much more
0:52:39intellectual ideas that are you know the
0:52:41country supposedly founded on of you
0:52:43know some amount of individual liberty
0:52:45and writes I guess that swing back and
0:52:47all the other direction like we have
0:52:49freedom of speech but we also have you
0:52:51know slander laws and you know can't
0:52:54yell fire in a crowded theater like it
0:52:55just like the basics of civics
0:52:57one-on-one that there are extremes and
0:52:59we are headed we've been headed in the
0:53:01other direction for so long that I just
0:53:03think that every problem that touches on
0:53:04this you at all has to be viewed in the
0:53:06context of the humongous long clear
0:53:09unidirectional slide that we've been in
0:53:11for so long and so anybody who's for
0:53:13this I have to say don't you know don't
0:53:16think of this individual issue
0:53:17do you agree that this we've been going
0:53:19this direction for far too long at what
0:53:21point do we need to turn around at what
0:53:22point do we need to start swinging the
0:53:24other direction
0:53:25I think personally we're way past that
0:53:27point but even if you don't think we're
0:53:28past that point if you're not thinking
0:53:29about that point it's just every time
0:53:31something comes up that you're afraid of
0:53:33or that you need your you know support
0:53:35the troops law enforcement is always
0:53:36right the the government is our friend
0:53:38of all blah
0:53:39if every single time something comes up
0:53:40you never even occurred to you to look
0:53:42at where we're going and how we have to
0:53:43swing in the direction and i'm far from
0:53:45you know a libertarian individual rights
0:53:49not job that I personally i'm far from
0:53:50now but I'm just saying like no matter
0:53:52where you are if you never if you never
0:53:54consider it like this movement this
0:53:56graph the suspect then it will never
0:53:58occur to adjust it and there's no like
0:54:00oh it will be too late like there is no
0:54:01too late
0:54:02it'll just be the new normal the normal
0:54:03the new normal the only thing we'll have
0:54:05to compare self-worth is the rest of the
0:54:07world that is hopefully slightly more
0:54:08saying in these matters lo the UK shows
0:54:10maybe not because they've got surround
0:54:11everywhere to do things need to
0:54:14eventually swing back in the other
0:54:16direction and it just seems like a
0:54:18anybody who is at this point against
0:54:20this thing is showing that they're
0:54:22thinking entirely with their their heart
0:54:25and their fear and all those things you
0:54:27know that do them credit in
0:54:29enrolled but when it comes to
0:54:30establishing legal precedence and giving
0:54:32power to the government to you know
0:54:34rights of privacy and against all these
0:54:36details like you don't know these
0:54:37details about encryption and all like
0:54:39it's too esoteric it's too that's why
0:54:41it's the perfect case for the
0:54:42government's to Tim Cook can't make the
0:54:43real case because it's too detailed your
0:54:45eyes glaze over you just like but
0:54:46terrorists bad give the government what
0:54:48they want right that is exactly the same
0:54:50thing that's got us do all the crazy
0:54:52things you've been doing some line 11
0:54:53and I just feel he can continue to go in
0:54:55that direction forever
0:54:56everybody should at the very least every
0:54:59time they make any argument that they
0:55:01should have to explain why not only is
0:55:03this the right thing to do in this case
0:55:04but i believe that is essential for us
0:55:07to ratchet this thing up one more notch
0:55:08you know for for the for invading our
0:55:11privacy and forgiving law enforcement
0:55:13government power and I that is essential
0:55:14in this because if anyone says is just
0:55:16this one time or just as one thing or
0:55:18whatever it's like they have they
0:55:19haven't looked at history recent history
0:55:21or ancient history or any kind of
0:55:22history is not the way it works when
0:55:24someone gets power if they don't give it
0:55:26up again unless you take it from them
0:55:27yeah but honestly I i totally agree
0:55:31first of all I did everything you said
0:55:32is gold but looking at history and and
0:55:37looking at the present in the direction
0:55:41and everything I don't think I see a lot
0:55:43of evidence that it ever really does
0:55:45swing back in the direction
0:55:47well you know America itself was
0:55:48swinging the other direction that is it
0:55:50say there wasn't more authoritarian
0:55:52government control into a king then
0:55:54there was under the market is huge swing
0:55:56in the other direction are these does go
0:55:57back and forth in cycles like you just
0:55:58study history there are times where the
0:56:01government has more power over its
0:56:02citizenry and then less power and then
0:56:04more than less and you know it's clear
0:56:07which direction we're going in now and
0:56:08it's clear why in America anyway there's
0:56:11no reason we can't reverse that trend
0:56:13line you would think like oh well you
0:56:15know people like being under the King
0:56:17because it provides a measure of safety
0:56:19and a fat King like the you know the
0:56:22Mongol hordes are coming kill them
0:56:23wherever there's always some reason to
0:56:24be like yeah it's terrible but it's
0:56:26better than the alternative right but
0:56:28some people like you know if the King
0:56:31were chopping his head off and we're
0:56:32going to have our own system of
0:56:33government or whatever like we're
0:56:35throwing his tea overboard like those
0:56:37are big messy calamities but there are
0:56:40small victories as well I mean
0:56:42look at the Constitution has been
0:56:43amended many times to give people more
0:56:46rights and and it take rights away from
0:56:48the government say you know previously
0:56:50you could own people
0:56:52now we think that's not such a great
0:56:53idea so maybe write that into the
0:56:54Constitution or the effort example you
0:56:57can't drink alcohol anymore no nevermind
0:56:59you can you know
0:57:00previously we had the right to stop you
0:57:02from bringing alcohol then later we said
0:57:03no we probably shouldn't have that right
0:57:05yeah but on the other side of it like
0:57:08you like maybe I mean first of all you
0:57:10know there's different there's different
0:57:11versions of like a government that has
0:57:14too much power that's too oppressive
0:57:16that people revolt against or overthrow
0:57:19you know like it a grant this is way out
0:57:22of our usual comfort zone so please
0:57:24forgive me for anything i'm picturing
0:57:25here but you know like if you think
0:57:28about like the way that we are being
0:57:29oppressed by the surveillance and police
0:57:32states here it's in a way that most
0:57:35people don't care about because they
0:57:38don't think it affects them and so it's
0:57:41hardly if the government is taxing the
0:57:44crap out of you it you know like or
0:57:47taking your land stuff like that like
0:57:49you know if that's it that's happened to
0:57:51a whole bunch of people that's enough to
0:57:53make people revolt in most cases
0:57:55historically but if they're just like
0:57:58you know keeping records of your text
0:58:00messages and in these weird secret
0:58:02things that no one really thinks about
0:58:04her knows about and even were told they
0:58:06exist everyone look at well it doesn't
0:58:08matter
0:58:08and then we offer getting go watch the
0:58:10bachelor like I feel like that the ways
0:58:13in which things are going so badly that
0:58:15we're talking about here are ways that
0:58:17people don't care about enough but they
0:58:20care about them when there are
0:58:20consequences though
0:58:22well but but for most people there are
0:58:23no consequences that they see it doesn't
0:58:26matter if they're not it does not
0:58:27consequences for most people for
0:58:29anything it just matters that there are
0:58:30consequences for somebody you just need
0:58:32you just need basically you need an
0:58:35attractive young person to encounter a
0:58:38problem you know like that like it the
0:58:41same perfect storm that makes these
0:58:42things a great case of the FBI this is
0:58:44the opposite to write and and here's the
0:58:47thing that makes me optimistic about it
0:58:48because in general
0:58:50despite insane jerem answering and all
0:58:52sorts of other things we still have a
0:58:55system
0:58:55our people vote and so if people get
0:58:58angry enough the people who are in power
0:59:00get voted out and do people get voted in
0:59:02so it's always up to someone else to
0:59:05find a way to exploit the public to get
0:59:06them elected and people are always
0:59:08motivated to do that and they're smart
0:59:10people trying to get them like that
0:59:12instead of somebody else and so there
0:59:14will always be at least some way for us
0:59:15to effect change but also liked but over
0:59:18time you know as as as technology has
0:59:21progressed as the world has gotten more
0:59:22you know just more kind of globalized
0:59:26and you know as as like everything
0:59:29including manipulation and
0:59:32centralization of power as progressed
0:59:34what if what if depression by my
0:59:37government and by the by police
0:59:39apparatus apparatus
0:59:41what if this has actually gotten so good
0:59:43that now there's they're so good and
0:59:46things are so big and there's so much
0:59:49power cut concentrated in so few hands
0:59:51these days and the science of
0:59:54manipulating people and manipulating the
0:59:56media and controlling the messaging of
0:59:59everything
0:59:59everything
1:00:00that has gotten so advanced we have
1:00:01gotten so good at it or you know like
1:00:05that like a concentrated power basically
1:00:07and keeping those people in power that
1:00:09that kind of overthrow or change just
1:00:13doesn't happen anymore you like in in
1:00:15ways like certain forms of warfare
1:00:16basically don't happen anymore because
1:00:19we as a society have found more
1:00:21effective things you know it in to cover
1:00:23those those needs or wants a certain
1:00:26types of media don't exist anymore
1:00:27certain types of of legal issues are
1:00:30just not debated anymore certain types
1:00:32of freedoms are just assumed that we
1:00:34will either always have one that we will
1:00:35never have it seems like we've moved
1:00:37forward move past many things and we've
1:00:39advanced so much so I feel like the the
1:00:41the police states are so in control now
1:00:44of almost every fertile country and the
1:00:48guts of a combination of of the the
1:00:50establishment of control here along with
1:00:52these issues usually not bothering most
1:00:56everyday people in ways that they can
1:00:58notice or get mad about
1:01:00plus the ability for for the people who
1:01:03want to keep things this way to very
1:01:05effectively control the media narrative
1:01:08and I have media so centralized that's
1:01:09even possible
1:01:10I feel like the conditions are such now
1:01:13that the fact that a significant
1:01:16revolution can't really happen anymore
1:01:18does that make sense is am I just crazy
1:01:20your phone into the Illuminati trap
1:01:22where you imagine that it's possible for
1:01:24conspiracy of people to actually keep
1:01:25their stuff together and actually be
1:01:28all-powerful and controlling bottom line
1:01:31people are people
1:01:32that's what undoes all these things like
1:01:33the way if any grand conspiracy theory
1:01:35requires people to be so much more
1:01:36confident than anyone else so much more
1:01:38intelligent and capable and organized
1:01:41and able to keep secrets and able to
1:01:44read like that any conspiracy theory
1:01:47realizing that is obviously false
1:01:49because that just not happen there are
1:01:50no better set of people better able to
1:01:52control things and if the ends are
1:01:53saying before their maybe individual
1:01:55people who are good at that but there is
1:01:57opposition to each other and also all of
1:01:58them are just plain old people but their
1:02:00own stupid four balls and desires and
1:02:02things that don't make any sense and
1:02:04that general the general chaos of people
1:02:06being people means that it in the end
1:02:10but not saying it all works itself out
1:02:11but like i said as long as
1:02:13you're as long as you're not in the
1:02:14military dictatorship in which you have
1:02:16to have a bloody revolution to change
1:02:18things as long as we still have some way
1:02:20to change things about taking up arms
1:02:23which at this point would be a non
1:02:25workable anyway to get seriously the
1:02:28entire United States population versus
1:02:30the entire US Army if you set up that
1:02:32battle assuming both sides were highly
1:02:34motivated against it which makes no
1:02:36sense because the Army is made up of the
1:02:37children of the citizenry or whatever
1:02:39anyway if you can imagine that scenario
1:02:40we lose every time
1:02:41anyway doesn't matter as long as voting
1:02:45still hat functions in some tiny way
1:02:47which is getting tinier all-time granted
1:02:49but as long as it still works in some
1:02:50way and as long as people are still
1:02:52stupid people with their own weird
1:02:54desires and motivations that sort of
1:02:57like a dystopian sci-fi narrative where
1:03:02the diffuser rule the Illuminati rule in
1:03:06the Morlocks are just like lulled into a
1:03:09sense of and like in many ways idiocracy
1:03:11is more that much more plausible
1:03:14scenario in which everybody is a bunch
1:03:15of dunces cap but the idea that well I
1:03:18feel like the reason the Aqua sea
1:03:19resonates so much and we and we use it
1:03:22as as such a such an offer metaphor in
1:03:24these circles it is because that it like
1:03:27the way that I'm picturing there being a
1:03:30big problem for any kind of meaningful
1:03:31progress on these fronts is not the
1:03:35Illuminati situation it's not a big
1:03:37conspiracy theory if anything what we've
1:03:39seen over the last you know 10 20 years
1:03:42or whatever probably longer what we've
1:03:44seen is that the government or the those
1:03:48in power can do audacious things
1:03:51possibly even things that are illegal
1:03:52and they can just do them right in the
1:03:55open and if they message it correctly
1:03:57which they found more and more effective
1:03:59ways to do overtime as long as this
1:04:01message directly publicly they can get
1:04:04away with it almost every time but there
1:04:06are people there are people who are
1:04:07motivated to get them out of office
1:04:08other people want those jobs and they
1:04:10have the same tools and knowledge their
1:04:11disposal to battle them if someone does
1:04:13something like that it guaranteed when
1:04:15they get on there and come up for
1:04:16election and someone wants to run
1:04:17against them they're gonna bring up the
1:04:18thing and they're gonna bring it up in
1:04:19the unfavorable angle using all the
1:04:21tricks of the trade and emotional
1:04:22appeals like it that it that I think
1:04:25elections again not the cure for this
1:04:27elections are the the hedge against this
1:04:28because all the tools they have to get
1:04:30away with stuff people who want them out
1:04:32of office have you know to run against
1:04:34them to do the exact same thing but
1:04:36that's also based on a number of big
1:04:38assumptions of a that the population
1:04:41cares what people say independent
1:04:43election debates and everything but you
1:04:45have to have to learn how to make them
1:04:46care that's how you get elected you have
1:04:47the other do all the tricks in the book
1:04:49to get people i mean look at Donald
1:04:50Trump he's using all the tricks and the
1:04:52girls to get to get you know how to win
1:04:53the Republican nomination he's an idiot
1:04:55right how you doing that good season
1:04:57knows how to manipulate and play the
1:04:58game right now that I'm saying he's the
1:05:00greatest person but like if Donald Trump
1:05:01can you know get this close to being
1:05:04president shows that anybody can like if
1:05:07you don't really like it's that the
1:05:09tools are there for everybody
1:05:11everyone has access to what everyone
1:05:13could be on a reality show where they
1:05:14say you're fired everybody can put their
1:05:15face on it like all the tools are there
1:05:18for everybody and people are constantly
1:05:19hungry to kick out the old guys and
1:05:22bring in the new guys and I know it's
1:05:23possible because elections happen and if
1:05:25they can commit you to do it for them
1:05:26then they get the job and then they can
1:05:28be corrupted have power and do stuff
1:05:30whatever you know so like a given that
1:05:32sci-fi stories it's always like well or
1:05:35in military dictatorship sore in places
1:05:36like North Korea where the people have
1:05:38no power and literally sometimes have no
1:05:40food right like it it's much harder but
1:05:43in a first world country with us even
1:05:46remotely functioning government where
1:05:49people get to vote you there is always
1:05:52hope
1:05:52and even if it's a hope of like get the
1:05:54current terrible people out and get a
1:05:56different even more terrible but
1:05:57terrible in a different way person in
1:05:59that still hope it's not as if like it's
1:06:02going to be you know a military
1:06:04dictatorship where where the the supreme
1:06:07ruler passes it on to his son and so on
1:06:08and so forth in the only way you get out
1:06:10of it is with a bloody revolution or
1:06:11something so I'm not as pessimistic as
1:06:14you are about it because i think most of
1:06:15the most of the the the scenarios where
1:06:19it's like intractable and we're never
1:06:21going to escape from it just just don't
1:06:22work out a reality because people
1:06:24because people just people i guess that
1:06:25i hope you're right i'm done where you
1:06:29mean you usually are so I i have some
1:06:32confidence here you're generally right i
1:06:33mean it is not to say that like you
1:06:35can't be disastrous because i think one
1:06:36of them one of the sci-fi stories in
1:06:38this scenario
1:06:39that is plausible is like the one where
1:06:40you get the crazy person like Trump or
1:06:42something in there for like that was it
1:06:45firestarter anyway they want to spoil
1:06:47the bunch of people someone like Trump
1:06:49comes in and then like a nuke somebody
1:06:51and we all die like that's always a
1:06:52possibility but I feel like I lived
1:06:54through that as a child of the 80s and
1:06:55now it's like it's all hat now the whole
1:06:58world could blow up at any second
1:06:59because of a cowboy in the White House
1:07:01that's the possibility still out there
1:07:02so don't say that that's not gonna
1:07:04happen because it could but that again
1:07:06that could have happened back in the old
1:07:08the olden days of the eighties just as
1:07:09much as it can happen with President
1:07:10Trump and terrorists new things or
1:07:13whatever terrors nucleons by the way is
1:07:14exactly why they want to be able to
1:07:15wonder every single thing you do don't
1:07:16you afraid of terrorists new can you
1:07:18please let me have access to everything
1:07:19in your entire life and you have no
1:07:20rights and we can hold you to that trial
1:07:22forever
1:07:24Wow alright let's talk about something
1:07:27that's happy and awesome and then I have
1:07:29a question for you guys are final
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1:09:08much too Harry sponsor show real-time
1:09:11follow-up I'm gonna blame this on the
1:09:12cold which by the way i have have you
1:09:14heard have a cult difficult not fire
1:09:17starter
1:09:17obviously the dead zone sorry brain fart
1:09:21there and you know as Donald Trump would
1:09:23say he could shield himself from an
1:09:25assassin by holding a young child in
1:09:26front of them still win the nomination
1:09:28alright no politics no my good now said
1:09:31yes seriously is there any better you
1:09:34talk about tonight well i have a
1:09:35question thats thats related but maybe
1:09:38less sad hopefully I said let's assume
1:09:41that starts and actually let's assume
1:09:44that uh that Apple is told you have to
1:09:48do this and you know the the the world
1:09:51is upset we are upset actually haven't
1:09:53talked that much about how this relates
1:09:55the rest of the world but anyway
1:09:56everyone's upset apples told they have
1:09:59to do this and apple says to its
1:10:01engineers you have to do this now what
1:10:05happens if all the engineers at work an
1:10:07apple that have any sort of knowledge as
1:10:09to how to make this happen just say no
1:10:11I'll get fired because this
1:10:14insubordination to think I've been one
1:10:16would assume i agree civil disobedience
1:10:18civil disobedience because basically
1:10:20like if you refuse to do what the law
1:10:22says you have to do that you accept the
1:10:24consequences of it which is either get
1:10:26fired to go to jail like I mean it like
1:10:28basically of apples CEOs refused to
1:10:31comply with the thing there in contempt
1:10:32of court or whatever you know thing and
1:10:34they asked if the people in charge of
1:10:36the company
1:10:36I cooperate and tell her subordinates to
1:10:39do in this importance don't then the
1:10:41subordinates to get fired for
1:10:42insubordination
1:10:43it's not as if there's some scenario
1:10:45where that we can all sit on their hands
1:10:46and say well you told us to do it and I
1:10:48told these guys do but they won't oh
1:10:49well like court orders a court order and
1:10:52there's consequences for whoever it is
1:10:54that decides to divide it and if they
1:10:56could feel this would be answers is a
1:10:58way to protest unjust laws but part of
1:11:00civil disobedience is that you accept
1:11:02the punishment associated with
1:11:05disobeying the law and that's
1:11:06part of civil disobedience oh yes that
1:11:07could happen but i really doubt it would
1:11:09I mean yeah eventually like you know if
1:11:12if Tim Cook was thrown in jail over not
1:11:14obeying a final court order then
1:11:17somebody else would replace them because
1:11:19the company have to continue operating
1:11:20somehow and then that person would
1:11:23authorize it or they go to jail the next
1:11:25person would like that you know it's
1:11:26like eventually you'd find somebody who
1:11:28would do it so that that's not really a
1:11:31way out and really it really speaking
1:11:33they would just do it if they were
1:11:34ordered to but then simultaneously what
1:11:35they would be doing is like Marcus said
1:11:37before up there already obviously you
1:11:38know working on an operating system that
1:11:40they themselves can hack into and that
1:11:42just leads to the next legal fight which
1:11:43is should it be legal to make this
1:11:45incision another incredibly stupid legal
1:11:47fight that like at a certain point law
1:11:49enforcement becomes just so misguided
1:11:51and what they want like in some respects
1:11:53I'd say they're already past that point
1:11:54I know but like when the system is
1:11:56working the way you expected to like law
1:11:57enforcement is highly motivated to to
1:11:59get all the powers they possibly can to
1:12:01to enforce the law and solve crimes
1:12:04right it's checks and balances that
1:12:06there has to be some opposing force the
1:12:08other sizes yeah law enforcement you may
1:12:09want this but civil rights dictate XYZ
1:12:12like and when the checks and balances
1:12:13get out of balance then we know that's
1:12:15why you get this long-term trend and
1:12:16what didn't take much to unbalance it
1:12:18just giant terrorist attacks on american
1:12:20soil and then it gets all unbalanced
1:12:21right can also make the minor correction
1:12:23that law enforcement incentive is not to
1:12:25solve crimes it's too close cases not
1:12:28necessarily solving them just to close
1:12:30the case solving them suggests they're
1:12:33doing it correctly in the grand scheme
1:12:34of things again people being people the
1:12:36idea is just to obtain power but
1:12:38whenever is that not get into and into
1:12:40motivations and a particular
1:12:42disincentives but anyway when things are
1:12:44working what like what I'm getting at is
1:12:45that it's not necessarily a bad thing to
1:12:47have two parts of your system of
1:12:49government that are in opposition to
1:12:51each other and both highly motivated
1:12:53doing everything they can
1:12:55it's a problem with one side keeps
1:12:56winning four decades on end because then
1:12:58you get you know they're not balancing
1:13:00each other anymore like there is no more
1:13:01balanced right but in this case in the
1:13:03crypto thing like say apples order to do
1:13:06it they do it two years later they come
1:13:08with new version of iOS they can't even
1:13:09crack into eventually all the old iOS
1:13:11devices we go out of you so no criminals
1:13:13are using them anymore
1:13:13and of course all the criminals upgrade
1:13:15to the one that applicant break into a
1:13:17similar scenario that comes up
1:13:19law enforcement has this thing they want
1:13:20to get into it Apple can't do it
1:13:23they're pissed off about it it becomes a
1:13:25legal issue you know the the senators
1:13:29and Congress people who think they can
1:13:31get better best get elected by scaring
1:13:33their citizenry into thinking this needs
1:13:35to be done they say it's outrageous that
1:13:37an American company can make phones the
1:13:39American government can't break into
1:13:41that should not be allowed so they
1:13:43proposed legislation that makes
1:13:44cryptography illegal right at that point
1:13:46you hope someone more enforcement would
1:13:48realize that it's it's a semi right
1:13:51America can make whatever it wants
1:13:52illegal you can't get rid of math like
1:13:54the rest of the world has the math
1:13:56people can write programs themselves and
1:13:58make cryptography that in theory can't
1:14:01be cracked by you know the world's
1:14:03biggest computers for some you know like
1:14:04that's you can't unring that Bell like
1:14:07that exists and some of you make it
1:14:09illegal for all that's gonna do is make
1:14:11law-abiding US companies not do that but
1:14:15everyone else can do it right and it is
1:14:17it's a it's a it doesn't help law
1:14:19enforcement right and it practically
1:14:21speaking the criminals including
1:14:24terrorists are not as sophisticated as
1:14:25people think they are but if they wanted
1:14:26to be like you know even even this guy's
1:14:29phone if you had used an alphanumeric
1:14:30password again the government when the
1:14:33FBI wouldn't be able to ask Apple to
1:14:34crack into it anyway because it would
1:14:35take too long right maybe did in his
1:14:37personal phone
1:14:38yeah well he destroyed that so anyway it
1:14:40that the way the system should work is
1:14:42American company should be able to make
1:14:45technology they want with the best you
1:14:46know cryptography available to them and
1:14:48the government should be able to spend
1:14:49its hold Jillian's of dollars in tax
1:14:51money to fund you know what are they
1:14:54called like a not black box budget but
1:14:56like you know budget that you there's
1:14:59some work like secret budgets you're not
1:15:01allowed to know how much money they
1:15:02spend like homeland security in the NSA
1:15:04by all means give this iphone to the
1:15:07NSA's experts and have them break into
1:15:09it using huge supercomputers you but
1:15:11with taxpayer money like if you figure
1:15:13out how to break in
1:15:14good on you right then wait you know
1:15:16because that's just that is a proper
1:15:18balance where people get the Jew you
1:15:20know could make better better
1:15:21cryptography unconstrained by the law
1:15:23and the government
1:15:24maybe it's a little bit unbalanced the
1:15:26government with
1:15:27huge funding gets to hire the smartest
1:15:29people in the world and build the
1:15:30world's biggest computers to try to
1:15:32crack that cryptography and you can have
1:15:34that battle that's the way it's worked
1:15:35for you know the forever in this country
1:15:38is that the government does have smart
1:15:40people to try crack things and people
1:15:42try to make uncrackable things on the
1:15:43outside and they go back and forth right
1:15:45but this is the new strategy of like we
1:15:47don't want to do that seems hard
1:15:48applications unlock it for us and so if
1:15:51it because it isn't about this phone
1:15:53it's about having having easier and
1:15:55faster access to any fun they want right
1:15:58to be a basically to be able I'm the
1:15:59boss of you i can make you do things
1:16:00yeah so anyway if if this Appaloosas
1:16:03this case apple will unlock the phone
1:16:04then Apple will use its lobbying power
1:16:06and its millions and try to rally the
1:16:08tech companies to try to get legislation
1:16:10to make this you know like it'll be the
1:16:12whole political process but eventually
1:16:14Apple making phone that they themselves
1:16:15can crack into uh and then that will be
1:16:19a political football where has to be who
1:16:21can can we try to make this illegal
1:16:22maybe that fight will be you know like
1:16:25it it's the same in all these things you
1:16:28would help eventually the public will be
1:16:30persuaded that apple and privacy and
1:16:33cryptography kind of has a point even as
1:16:35esoteric as it is it
1:16:37I think eventually it will be
1:16:39understandable enough that a big biggest
1:16:41like the crypto one you just have to
1:16:42explain him like making this legal apple
1:16:44doesn't do anything terrorists can do
1:16:45this right now
1:16:46you know it just doesn't matter all does
1:16:48is mean that it's easier for other
1:16:50people to get into your phone
1:16:51don't make it any easier for her people
1:16:53against terrorists phones because a
1:16:54terrorist don't do important things on
1:16:56phones and be that they wanted to
1:16:57encrypt things so that no one can get it
1:16:58except for them they could do it now
1:17:00they could have done it a decade ago
1:17:01that they have the technology that's not
1:17:05what's stopping you have a lot more help
1:17:07than I do for our people and our
1:17:09politicians and our law enforcement
1:17:11because everything you said can apply
1:17:13also to drugs like yday drugs illegal
1:17:16then regular people will be penalized
1:17:18for not having drugs but then everyone
1:17:20else will have drugs
1:17:21yeah they did it anyway and it's look
1:17:23what it's doing like it
1:17:25yeah that I would make I don't make the
1:17:27same big picture argument with the war
1:17:29on drugs or it's like it we're going to
1:17:30what you may think about an individual
1:17:31issue what has happened over the past 10
1:17:3320 30 40 50 years in terms of the war on
1:17:36drugs and whatever the results but one
1:17:37of the intended goals and one of the
1:17:39actual results pin and maybe pick a
1:17:41different strategy if what you're trying
1:17:42to do is exactly opposite of what you're
1:17:43crossing to happen and that gets install
1:17:46you know puritanical America that
1:17:49actually doesn't deeper in America the
1:17:50whole idea of like finding who to blame
1:17:52or punished for solving the actual
1:17:53problem and yeah yeah I was not a
1:17:55political podcast know going into too
1:17:57many issues but some things some things
1:17:59do seem really intractable because of
1:18:01the particular nature of America we
1:18:03haven't talked about guns by the way
1:18:04from sure we'll get feedback about this
1:18:06all those arguments you a game
1:18:08cryptography exactly the same arguments
1:18:09you can give for any way that I can talk
1:18:11about guns anyway people have things but
1:18:13this it's it's kind of a shame that this
1:18:15is weird esoteric and techy because it
1:18:20in that way it would probably like Apple
1:18:23Apple could lose this one
1:18:25Apple Apple is going to lose one of the
1:18:26court of public opinion Apple could win
1:18:29it in the bill the legal court but even
1:18:31if Apple i quote unquote wins in court
1:18:33they're gonna come out of this as a
1:18:35company that half of America thinks that
1:18:37helps terrorist there's just no avoiding
1:18:38that which is a shame for Apple it's a
1:18:40shame for people who don't understand
1:18:43the larger implications who don't
1:18:44understand the the trends in American
1:18:47life over the past several decades or
1:18:48who agree with it because they're
1:18:50constantly terrified of everything
1:18:51because they watch you know fox news all
1:18:53the time I don't know or any news for
1:18:55that matter is most qualified watch
1:18:57MSNBC all the time and all they know is
1:18:58the things they're gonna kill him
1:18:59yeah that's that's a shame then that
1:19:04that's a bummer for Apple I mean it's
1:19:05got a bump them cookout because I think
1:19:07he's savvy enough person to know that
1:19:09even if he wins he loses a little bit in
1:19:11this one and that's why it's so it's so
1:19:13interesting and an admirable here on the
1:19:16side of it that that they are standing
1:19:17up for this because the upside for them
1:19:20is not large here but there's there is
1:19:23almost no upside for them like like I
1:19:25don't understand like you sell the
1:19:26upside is that they can sell more people
1:19:28phones like Marco said people don't care
1:19:30enough about this know there are going
1:19:31to buy the Apple phone because it's less
1:19:33likely the government can no one thinks
1:19:34about that like I there's barely any
1:19:36upside
1:19:37for that it like it is a net loss for
1:19:39Apple no matter how this turns out I
1:19:40feel like absolutely it's a huge loss
1:19:42and immediate the the silver lining i
1:19:45can see in this the only one I can
1:19:47really see in this is that Apple is no
1:19:51stranger to bad press you know and and
1:19:5422 negativity about them and and you
1:19:59know rumors or or slight mistress or
1:20:01even truth about that just suck being
1:20:04spread in the media very quickly and
1:20:07basically sticking around forever you
1:20:09know any kind of like you know iphone
1:20:12flaw or the or like the the quitting
1:20:15your apps they even or like the idea
1:20:17that they're like that they changed the
1:20:19the dock port to the Lightning port make
1:20:22you revile your cables they started
1:20:23because there's like it
1:20:26negative negative about Apple spreads so
1:20:29much in in the general population now
1:20:31that you know at this is not new for
1:20:34Apple this won't be the only negative
1:20:36thing about them that a lot of people
1:20:37truly or falsely believe and the other
1:20:42thing is that that might help them here
1:20:43is part of what makes it so hard for
1:20:47things like the Snowden revelations to
1:20:50really stick around in the news cycle
1:20:52that people will move on you know like
1:20:55next week
1:20:57Kanye West will say something and that
1:20:59will be like they didn't then all this
1:21:00won't matter anymore it's like be the
1:21:02the attention span of the of like the
1:21:06hot topic in American news is so short
1:21:08especially for something like this where
1:21:10you know like the Snowden stuff where
1:21:12it's kind of complicated and there's
1:21:15there's no good solution or endgame here
1:21:18that's going to happen and and just
1:21:20understand the topic in general is
1:21:22complicated like I've had a number of
1:21:24like like non-geeks bring up this topic
1:21:27in the last week or so since it came out
1:21:29and every time their reaction is not
1:21:33what is Apple doing to help terrorists
1:21:35it's what exactly is going on here
1:21:37because the it's a hard topic to
1:21:39understand if you aren't very technical
1:21:41and also haven't haven't like read a
1:21:44really good summary of it you know
1:21:45it'sit's all the very sensationalize and
1:21:47very you know very like you
1:21:50boosted by the media here and there but
1:21:51nobody really like in general people
1:21:54don't really understand it or don't have
1:21:56a very accurate picture of it so it's
1:21:58honestly I don't think it's going to
1:22:00stick around for very long at in the new
1:22:03cycle i think i think i'd be surprised
1:22:05if anybody was talking about two weeks
1:22:07from now to get some support for your
1:22:09pessimism marco by the way like if you
1:22:10think for for issues like this that are
1:22:13technical that people don't really care
1:22:15that much about that you need to come to
1:22:17be into the intellectual or legal side
1:22:20of it to really have it hold your
1:22:21attention because it's too complicated
1:22:22to think but otherwise very often leads
1:22:25to terrible laws that take a long time
1:22:27if ever to go away doesn't mean they'll
1:22:30never go away
1:22:30it just means that we may all be dead
1:22:33some recent examples are like the dmca
1:22:35all the weird you know stuff involving a
1:22:39cable television and breaking encryption
1:22:43on on ink cartridges for printers and
1:22:47like all the laws that most of those are
1:22:48my corporate lobbying obviously but laws
1:22:51that are about technical issues like if
1:22:53the if I feel like really feel like if
1:22:55you took any individual American put
1:22:57them into room and playing explain the
1:22:59dmca actual consequences of it they
1:23:00would come down on the side that this is
1:23:02a stupid law you know they would
1:23:04understand the motivations but this is
1:23:05not the way to do it because it can be
1:23:07abused in all these ways and look at how
1:23:08it works and blah blah but the bottom
1:23:10line is that pass it's still lame it's
1:23:12not going away anytime soon eternal
1:23:13copyright another great example you can
1:23:15explain someone that until you're blue
1:23:16in the face you could probably convince
1:23:17pretty much everybody individually but
1:23:19overall people like their I don't know
1:23:22whatever they should know Mickey Mouse i
1:23:23guess like no one no one thinks about
1:23:25the long-term consequences of copyright
1:23:28without end or any like outlying
1:23:30encryption is an entire patent system
1:23:32yeah the entire patent system like
1:23:33outlawing encryption with that we can so
1:23:36could the outlaw encryption despite how
1:23:37stupid is like I'm hoping that law
1:23:39enforcement realize Alan carpet is
1:23:41pointless they wouldn't even pursuit but
1:23:42it in pursuit they get it because law
1:23:44enforcement is is not a culture of
1:23:47trying to understand things it's not a
1:23:50culture is like somethings are you know
1:23:52like you need people sort of subject
1:23:54matter experts thinking about the
1:23:55consequences and then also tear them
1:23:58with people who are good at convincing
1:23:59other people to do what they say and
1:24:01that's how you get good
1:24:02it's really easy to get bad laws we have
1:24:04lots of examples of bad laws on you're
1:24:07just hoping that like and what what I'm
1:24:09getting at is that your pessimism is not
1:24:10this not this is like it you know a
1:24:12one-way slide into doom
1:24:14it's just that some of these things like
1:24:15a really really long time turn around
1:24:17long enough that you know we won't live
1:24:19to see them like do you think you'll
1:24:20never live to see the dmca taken away
1:24:22no probably not you think we'll ever
1:24:24lived to see reasonable copyright or
1:24:26patent office certainly not right but
1:24:28doesn't mean those things are hopeless
1:24:30and they will never swing back in the
1:24:32other direction because all you need it
1:24:35because people are so fickle and have
1:24:37short attention spans and can't be into
1:24:39the intellectual details of every single
1:24:40freaking thing that the government does
1:24:41this system is always ripe for a small
1:24:45group of smart smart people to
1:24:46capitalize on a crisis in a way to make
1:24:48something good happen instead of
1:24:49something bad and that is always a
1:24:51possibility in any sort of democracy is
1:24:54that's why I think long-term
1:24:55we'll never get to the really cool
1:24:57dystopian sci-fi movies because well i
1:24:59always think about when i watch those
1:25:00movies like that's fine but long-term
1:25:04long-term like I mean even though you
1:25:06have the rise of Hitler right eventually
1:25:08people realize we should fight this guy
1:25:09right and it's like you go you'll never
1:25:11have something like that would be
1:25:12affected well what about Hitler he was
1:25:13pretty terrible he was your right but it
1:25:15didn't lead to and it's Hitler forever
1:25:17like you know people die people are
1:25:20killed people fight like again we can
1:25:23all new car selves and that makes it
1:25:24that doesn't satisfy believe everybody's
1:25:26nukes like I could happen and then you
1:25:28know the machines take over i guess i
1:25:30don't know but the ones where it's just
1:25:32like a bunch of people who sort of like
1:25:34boiled frog and they slowly they slowly
1:25:36slowly like find themselves increasingly
1:25:39dire situations they can't get
1:25:40themselves out of it and then you just
1:25:41fast-forward like thousands of years and
1:25:43it never gets any better
1:25:44that just doesn't seem possible to
1:25:45because in the end people people they
1:25:48don't want to be uncomfortable they
1:25:49don't wanna you know be sad or hurt they
1:25:52want to just hang out and the holodeck
1:25:54will kill everybody we all know that but
1:25:55aside from that our fine I'm too
1:25:59depressed even make infant timescale
1:26:01joke
1:26:02you don't even times the holiday key you
1:26:05need a holodeck and that's it end of
1:26:07humanity sorry everybody
1:26:09this on that happy note i think we're at
1:26:13a time tonight you want to give some of
1:26:15the topic anyway just done that even
1:26:17though we'll go over time I don't care
1:26:18now we can we do in the post-show thanks
1:26:21143 sponsor this week Squarespace
1:26:22fracture and Harry's and we'll see you
1:26:24next week
1:26:26now the show is over they didn't even
1:26:31mean to be in because it was accidental
1:26:34death was accidental
1:26:38Jonathan
1:26:40research Marco in kc wouldn't let him
1:26:43because it was accidentally was
1:26:46accidental and you can find the show
1:26:50know today d p dot and if twitter follow
1:26:58them
1:26:59yes byl ISS so that's king list and a
1:27:04co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC
1:27:11Syracuse
1:27:21what
1:27:25alright so what do you want to talk
1:27:29about that uh what's happy these days
1:27:31anything else besides this and I want to
1:27:35save my blue right thing for a happier
1:27:37more tech-heavy week when we come out of
1:27:40this politics Jones and swear never to
1:27:43talk about it so it's you know it's
1:27:44apple's fault right
1:27:45it's not like we choose it's like the
1:27:47car thing it's like Apple building a car
1:27:48window you know we had a car podcast
1:27:51when now we have a tech podcast then
1:27:53Apple decides they're gonna make car
1:27:54maybe allegedly possibly that's not
1:27:56that's not on us but it's not like you
1:27:58said you just wanted to talk about cars
1:28:01again i'm not making their be rumors
1:28:02about Apple making car and similarly we
1:28:04don't want to talk about politics on the
1:28:06show we avoid as much as we can but then
1:28:08Apple is that you know the main tech
1:28:10company to talk about the show has to
1:28:12get into a big fight in the government
1:28:13on a political issue
1:28:14what can we do like it with that's I'm
1:28:17sorry you know it had to happen and it's
1:28:19very difficult to talk about political
1:28:21issues without getting political so if
1:28:22you're angry that we talked about the
1:28:24politics and the show and you're
1:28:25thinking of sending us an email or tweet
1:28:26that tells us we should stick the
1:28:27technology we were blame apple blame the
1:28:30government
1:28:31this is a technology related issue
1:28:33hundred percent so is that the happy
1:28:35topic now that's just like the the
1:28:37pre-emptive preemptive whining I this
1:28:40one I feel like we should pull the
1:28:41record be done
1:28:42yeah I don't really wanna talk with mac
1:28:44pro is there news i don't know i don't
1:28:47buy I'm not gonna buy American alright I
1:28:49want to know if there was news but it is
1:28:51known as that of course if they're
1:28:52always assume there's no news with the
1:28:54mac pro because almost all the time with
1:28:56the exception of fillers activation
1:28:58every other time there's no news about
1:29:00the macro all there was the repair thing
1:29:02where everyone's macros that were like
1:29:03failing there like a repair extension
1:29:05program to help them right god damn it
1:29:07that wasn't this week though I know as
1:29:10semi-reasonable I feel bad for my cuz he
1:29:11sold as it was flaky but he could if he
1:29:13kept a little bit longer could have got
1:29:14a you know all the guts that presumably
1:29:16don't suffer from whatever weird
1:29:17problems he was having yeah but the imac
1:29:19has been a computer for him anyway I
1:29:21thought you know just it's great for
1:29:22putting your iPad in front of a nice
1:29:26backdrop but screen set right look at it
1:29:28while uses ipad in front of it
1:29:29well I've had people you don't want them
1:29:31that that's not know that they have good
1:29:33news they have a pencil news this thing
1:29:35oh yeah we didn't mention that yeah with
1:29:37the 9.3 the time
1:29:38three beta at all the bases until now
1:29:41had had removed the ability to use the
1:29:43Apple pencil to do certain you I tasks
1:29:46like scrolling list and panning things
1:29:48and and our friends know that over the
1:29:54last few weeks and months as the
1:29:56Nightwatchman beta and then we heard
1:29:58from a few people i think including a
1:30:00tipster that this was actually not a bug
1:30:04this is actually a choice apple had made
1:30:06that the pencil shouldn't be used for
1:30:07these things and then over the last few
1:30:10days a whole bunch of people were
1:30:11articles about it last week or two weeks
1:30:13ago cortex complained about it very
1:30:16effectively and so there's a whole bunch
1:30:17of of complaining about over the last
1:30:19couple of weeks and then apple announced
1:30:21yesterday I believe that
1:30:24well they gave a wonderfully spun PR
1:30:26statement to the effect of we always
1:30:29plan to do it this way band next beta
1:30:31it'll be it'll be back here just
1:30:32temporarily removed you know of course
1:30:34that of course it wasn't and of course
1:30:35that was PR spin but it's fine let's see
1:30:39at i don't know like I don't know if you
1:30:41take that at face value because the
1:30:42thing it again this is the more open
1:30:43apple which is nice that they're telling
1:30:44us like in the old Apple wouldn't tell
1:30:46us at all like we would you know be
1:30:47under NDA and developers well they told
1:30:50us something
1:30:51baby steps right but the real thing is
1:30:53that i wasn't thinking of is like what
1:30:55would be the motivation for moving this
1:30:57functionality is I think Stephen on
1:30:59Twitter had a couple of speculation
1:31:01about what it might be but he was wrong
1:31:02i'm like why would they remove it like
1:31:04assume it's intentional right and assume
1:31:06they're not telling you this intentional
1:31:07because they don't want to i'm just
1:31:08trying to get a plausible reason for
1:31:10them to intentionally remove it I got it
1:31:12can't come up with anything
1:31:14the the best reasons i heard were one
1:31:17was was the idea that you should you
1:31:19could be like scrolling things with your
1:31:21finger but you should only be using the
1:31:23pencil tool like tap or make marks on
1:31:26things and enter to kind of clarify what
1:31:28the pencil is used for but like you know
1:31:30people aren't idiots they they know what
1:31:32the pencils for like it so I think
1:31:34that's not a great reason the the other
1:31:37reason I heard that was more i think
1:31:39more likely more credible was simply
1:31:41that Apple didn't want to didn't want
1:31:45people to get into the habit of not
1:31:47using touch as the primary interface to
1:31:49iOS in general so the overall you
1:31:51by overall usage of these devices they
1:31:53wanted the primary interface to remain
1:31:55touch and I don't want anybody like
1:31:57making apps that had a bunch of tiny
1:31:59touch targets and then they want people
1:32:01to be using pencil full-time but the
1:32:03reality is that is not that is not also
1:32:06a good enough reason like that
1:32:07first of all like if people make after
1:32:09the context targets
1:32:11who cares if there's truly if that's
1:32:13truly not all people are doing that's
1:32:15what succeed the market will solve that
1:32:16problem that's that's such a bad reason
1:32:18that i like to think that it wasn't
1:32:19there but but here it's a thing about
1:32:21that is a modern Apple research so the
1:32:23same say that was the reason
1:32:24what I would like to c is for Apple to
1:32:27say that like why can't that debate ever
1:32:29happened in public places like a half
1:32:31debate where they passive-aggressively
1:32:33do something don't tell you why people
1:32:35complain and the reverse it and never
1:32:36told you why they were going to do in
1:32:37the first place instead of like the
1:32:40first beta comes out with it
1:32:41news sites realize that it's the this is
1:32:43the thing they write stories about it
1:32:45and there's a public dialogue where
1:32:47Apple immediately says 10 guys you
1:32:49understand here's why we did this we did
1:32:50it because we don't want people making
1:32:51an absolute touchstart well at least you
1:32:53could have a real debate about like the
1:32:55merits of the issue as opposed to now
1:32:57where the debate happens entirely
1:32:59internally and it's just a one-sided
1:33:01thing where people complain outside and
1:33:03and maybe you're screaming into a void
1:33:04or maybe apples listening
1:33:05did you convince them or maybe they're
1:33:07going to say it was an accident like you
1:33:09get this whole black box thing we don't
1:33:10know another word we need to be privy to
1:33:12everything that's going on there but
1:33:13just think it would behoove everyone in
1:33:16this relationship dysfunctional
1:33:17relationship between customer in
1:33:18cooperation to speak openly with each
1:33:21other to believe enough in each other
1:33:24for Apple to tell us the real reason
1:33:25they want to make a functional change in
1:33:27the OS and then we can talk about the
1:33:29reasons why we think that's dumb or you
1:33:31know like instead of just saying we can
1:33:33tell this is a mistake or not but God if
1:33:35it is intentional please don't do it is
1:33:37maybe Apple convince us maybe they have
1:33:39a really good reason that we haven't
1:33:41thought of right or maybe you know the
1:33:42reason has to do with unreleased product
1:33:44that we don't know about and they can't
1:33:45tell us i understand this is always
1:33:46going to be a limited situation here I
1:33:48just feel like it would be a healthier
1:33:49it would be healthier feedback loop
1:33:52between customer and cooperation not
1:33:55that either one has entire rights to
1:33:57know what the other one thing all the
1:33:58time but that we need to get closer to a
1:34:00relationship where people like Marco
1:34:02don't assume that app everything apple
1:34:03says it all
1:34:04because they're not gonna reveal the
1:34:06real reason why didn't I I just think
1:34:08the PR statement was pretty clearly BS
1:34:10but it doesn't really matter why don't
1:34:12you just assuming it is but like because
1:34:14the reason sounds so dumb to you but
1:34:15then you don't know what to think do you
1:34:16think like are they being disingenuous
1:34:18why would they hide especially if
1:34:19they've changed their mind when you come
1:34:21out and say we were originally doing a
1:34:23reason x but now we're convinced that
1:34:24will be the truth that the truth would
1:34:26be we have this reason people complained
1:34:29we were convinced by their complaints
1:34:30that are reasons don't Trump their
1:34:32desires
1:34:33therefore we changed our mind like
1:34:34that's healthy that's a healthy dialogue
1:34:36instead of if you know again if what
1:34:38you're saying is true
1:34:39instead of pretending that that wasn't
1:34:41really the case you know we always meant
1:34:43to do this right assuming again assuming
1:34:44they're pretending it just seems like a
1:34:46dysfunctional relationship
1:34:49yeah I don't know at least this is fixed
1:34:51you know like ph.d it but whatever
1:34:53whenever people in our parts make big
1:34:58complaints about about a change apple is
1:35:01floating in a beta we always hear from
1:35:03people i always see people responding or
1:35:05is already trying to me if I'm on the
1:35:06critics like what do you like why do you
1:35:08bother doing is you're just you
1:35:10complaining what Apple but the reason
1:35:11why they're doing it because it works
1:35:13because at the end these things do tend
1:35:15to get fixed
1:35:16well it's random reward it works
1:35:18sometimes it works randomly like it
1:35:20worked every time it wouldn't be as
1:35:22motivating to do it work never we would
1:35:24never do it but it works enough for the
1:35:25time
1:35:26well i think you know if these kind of
1:35:27decisions these are probably debated
1:35:29inside apple right almost every almost
1:35:30every decision that that like we get mad
1:35:32about chances are people in apple were
1:35:35also mad about them and and they argued
1:35:36about them and so when when Outsiders
1:35:38pile onto the argument or draw attention
1:35:40to the argument that helps that side in
1:35:43the app inside Apple win the argument or
1:35:46it helps change people's minds so it it
1:35:50is very effective and and it again
1:35:52you're gonna win every time because like
1:35:53if you try to argue for something like
1:35:54well you know what I'm tired of a
1:35:56particular shouldn't be a preview like
1:35:58well you know you're not going to win
1:35:59that that's unlikely keep arguing that
1:36:01because someday like that will be on the
1:36:03title infinite time scale it will be on
1:36:05the table and yes I got it well is you
1:36:08know and other examples you can complain
1:36:09about the file system for I don't know a
1:36:10decade alright we feel better now and
1:36:13and then you know maybe eventually
1:36:15they'll come around but but yeah now
1:36:17that means the function of the the tech
1:36:19press like I mean this is happening
1:36:20whether you know whether Apple admits it
1:36:23out of course it's always been happening
1:36:24because i was made up of people and they
1:36:25read tech press about themselves because
1:36:27you know that's the way it works and as
1:36:29you pointed out there's always
1:36:30dissension within the company but in the
1:36:34end certain people are in charge and
1:36:35certain people aren't and apples not a
1:36:36democracy and neither is the press and
1:36:39neither is anything else but we're just
1:36:40trying to get as a healthier symbiosis
1:36:43where Apple's potential customers are
1:36:46telling it what they would want and
1:36:48apple it wants to give customers what
1:36:50they want but maybe not those customers
1:36:52maybe they see other customers are not
1:36:54currently talking to wear that are you
1:36:55know like again it's not it's not as a
1:36:57customer should be in charge of apples
1:36:58as Apple's should be in charge of the
1:37:00customers it's just the and its opening
1:37:03up like I feel like the dialogue is
1:37:04opening up more than used to be and this
1:37:05is healthy
1:37:06we just have a ways to go yet do you
1:37:09guys use the ipad pro Marco what you
1:37:12told me in jar me into you and tiff
1:37:15oh she uses that uses mine and she uses
1:37:18the pencil navigate bunch of stuff and
1:37:20if i use the ipad pro or any ipad on a
1:37:23regular basis i would certainly consider
1:37:25doing the same thing because i like the
1:37:28pencil a lot as an input device it is
1:37:30really nice and that's all I mean it is
1:37:33also targeting other people have made
1:37:34about it being either more efficient or
1:37:36better for advanced work or better for
1:37:39ergonomics for an operator for
1:37:40accessibility for certain people or just
1:37:42feels better that the mic argument is
1:37:44sometimes it just feels better
1:37:45exactly if I were an ipad user or if I
1:37:49was the kind of person who likes writing
1:37:50things with pens and pencils i would
1:37:53certainly be using it all the time but
1:37:55neither of those things apply to me
1:37:56unfortunately so it's not it's not
1:37:57really for me but I do respect a lot as
1:38:00a really nice input device i do wonder a
1:38:02little bit though like that in these
1:38:04type of feedback cycles and
1:38:07relationships that is part of the reason
1:38:08the old Apple would not do something
1:38:10like this because it was seen as like a
1:38:11sign of weakness like oh we weren't we
1:38:13weren't right we were wrong about
1:38:14something we need to change it but part
1:38:17of it is also that is legitimately like
1:38:20taking taking the the angry feedback
1:38:24from your most enthusiastic
1:38:26users as a way to design your products
1:38:29is a formula for death like apple
1:38:31doesn't do that for a good reason you
1:38:32never want to like just listen to your
1:38:34most enthusiastic users because you will
1:38:36evolve your product in a way that caters
1:38:40more and more to like the the the expert
1:38:42the super enthusiastic and you will
1:38:44never you never get something like the
1:38:45iPhone because the super Apple
1:38:46enthusiast for like drawing pictures of
1:38:48like OS 10 on a phone or something you
1:38:50know I mean like apple doesn't do that
1:38:52to its credit knows the trap of our
1:38:54microsoft office on so many ways to keep
1:38:56adding features because your excellent
1:38:57features and you go to your experts
1:38:58forever but for the ipad pro it's kind
1:39:02of a sign that Apple realizes that at
1:39:04this point the ipad pro history that
1:39:06fanatical group of users who really love
1:39:09the thing that's all they've got at this
1:39:11point like they if they're going to
1:39:12betray those people for some larger
1:39:14market that they they don't have faith
1:39:16that will materialize so they better
1:39:18listen to the most passionate ipad pro
1:39:21users because there aren't many ipad for
1:39:23users presumably and it is kind of a
1:39:26high-end enthusiasts product like
1:39:28there's a hole that line of ipads for
1:39:29the rest of the world and phones the
1:39:30rest of the world but for the ipad pro
1:39:33now if you're gonna listen to anybody
1:39:35about anything like that's where you
1:39:37would do it on the other hand at the
1:39:39ipad pro is burning up the sales chart
1:39:41and everybody was buying one and it was
1:39:43like taking over the mac and mac sales
1:39:45are going down fifty percent and ipad
1:39:46pro sales we're gonna be like half the
1:39:49iphone sales next year they would feel
1:39:51confident to ignore those people and say
1:39:52it's more important to go with our gut
1:39:54instinct of whatever their internal
1:39:55reasoning is so in some ways it gives me
1:39:58a you know a view of how Apple sees the
1:40:01current state of the ipad pro market
1:40:03they're not in a position right now to
1:40:05just do what they want it you know
1:40:09despite the the house of enthusiasts
1:40:12whereas on many other markets for
1:40:14example the iphone people howling to be
1:40:16able to sideload apps Apple confidently
1:40:18ignored them as the sales graph for
1:40:20iphones when do you know up like a ski
1:40:22jump and that's that they were in a
1:40:25position of strength there but on the
1:40:27ipad pro not right now
1:40:28yeah as much as it as much as it sucks
1:40:30for Apple to be like losing things as
1:40:32you know as much as it sucks for them
1:40:34I like what comes out of them when they
1:40:36have like a fire learn to them you know
1:40:38I like when there
1:40:39not in a dominant position when they're
1:40:40fighting really hard that tends to be
1:40:42when the best stuff comes out of them
1:40:44except for TV boxes
1:40:46sorry low blow so much competition in
1:40:50that market that's a different topic
1:40:52that's my honestly have you used it
1:40:54that's my blu-ray top i know i know i
1:40:56know i'm just saying I i also thought
1:40:58there was so much competition that was
1:41:00really good until i tried to use the
1:41:02competition
1:41:02well there is this lot of competition is
1:41:05not really good yeah that's that's fair
1:41:07is that a fire little members just like
1:41:09a tepid water dripping on their toes i
1:41:11don't know it's called fire but yeah it
1:41:13doesn't really work that way I'd like to
1:41:16set it on fire