The Accidental Tech Podcast

158: You Can't Outlaw Math


00:00:00   we're in for a long show tonight are we [TS]

00:00:01   not I don't honestly I don't know how [TS]

00:00:03   long it's gonna last help you put that [TS]

00:00:06   on the pre-show marcos classic honestly [TS]

00:00:09   I don't think there's much to say always [TS]

00:00:12   says that I never say it's gonna be a [TS]

00:00:14   short show that's always you provided [TS]

00:00:16   that you say it a different way that's [TS]

00:00:18   the ways and i can tell i have a cold [TS]

00:00:22   my-my streak is over i was gonna go to [TS]

00:00:24   whole winter without getting sick almost [TS]

00:00:26   made it out of this one so close [TS]

00:00:28   can we just drive you over a creek how's [TS]

00:00:29   your picture called I recognize that [TS]

00:00:33   wasn't the best use that metaphor but i [TS]

00:00:34   just cannot get tired of that metaphor [TS]

00:00:36   it's so good yeah it's kind of mean that [TS]

00:00:39   like is this gets back to what i was [TS]

00:00:40   saying on the pasture we're talking [TS]

00:00:42   about the new open a plan coming on [TS]

00:00:44   podcasts or whatever it's so easy to [TS]

00:00:47   make fun of that but that type of story [TS]

00:00:49   is an example of people opening up like [TS]

00:00:52   it's the type of thing that in a more [TS]

00:00:54   controlled PR environment would never [TS]

00:00:56   come out and it's slightly unfortunate [TS]

00:01:00   that the story that they put out there [TS]

00:01:03   because even on the merits it's kind of [TS]

00:01:06   like well you're trying to make an [TS]

00:01:08   emotional appeal but realistically [TS]

00:01:10   speaking that's not an effective way for [TS]

00:01:11   an organization to address problems to [TS]

00:01:14   have the head of the you know that the [TS]

00:01:15   head honchos of these huge swathes of [TS]

00:01:17   the biggest company in the world be [TS]

00:01:19   addressing problems on an individual [TS]

00:01:20   level with their own particular max like [TS]

00:01:22   that's not you need better tools to [TS]

00:01:24   manage this problem so it just seems [TS]

00:01:27   like you're trying to sway me [TS]

00:01:27   emotionally with anecdote but doesn't [TS]

00:01:29   make sense but that's the type of thing [TS]

00:01:32   that you do when you open up about [TS]

00:01:35   yourself in your personal life and i'm [TS]

00:01:36   sure it really is true and so I'm glad [TS]

00:01:38   we know that that's what's going on and [TS]

00:01:40   now we can I guess make our own [TS]

00:01:43   judgments about the effectiveness is the [TS]

00:01:45   strategy of driving things to create [TS]

00:01:48   victories and I don't know it is also [TS]

00:01:49   trying to say how passionate they are [TS]

00:01:50   that even these big important people are [TS]

00:01:52   are not above getting down to a problem [TS]

00:01:57   that they encounter that they're not [TS]

00:01:58   going to leave it to the lower people so [TS]

00:01:59   they'll take care of that they really [TS]

00:02:01   want to fix every little problem they [TS]

00:02:02   found so it's multifaceted it's [TS]

00:02:04   personal--it's human it's flawed [TS]

00:02:07   it's everything that the new open Apple [TS]

00:02:09   the new more open apple is about [TS]

00:02:11   so I only have a few questions about it [TS]

00:02:13   first of all in what part of a Ferrari [TS]

00:02:16   doesn't imac fit they have a lot of cars [TS]

00:02:18   you have is the rule of thumb if you [TS]

00:02:20   have a Ferrari it does not your only car [TS]

00:02:22   that's fair okay a second question can [TS]

00:02:25   you imagine being federighi and [TS]

00:02:27   basically being like the tech support [TS]

00:02:29   team for the entire company i wonder if [TS]

00:02:31   that's like a Power Move like the video [TS]

00:02:34   it's like that if you have something [TS]

00:02:35   wrong with Apple music do you like drive [TS]

00:02:37   your computer over to the anyhow that's [TS]

00:02:39   I feel like it's unfair because all of [TS]

00:02:41   any stuff is all cloud services like you [TS]

00:02:43   you can't really drive a broken itunes [TS]

00:02:46   store requests over to Eddie's house but [TS]

00:02:48   you just bring you just bring your [TS]

00:02:49   computer and say why is all my automated [TS]

00:02:52   message fix this and you and you come [TS]

00:02:54   back on monday is it done to fix my [TS]

00:02:56   album that data is even funnier to [TS]

00:02:58   imagine like you know your correctly [TS]

00:03:01   you're like sitting down to dinner with [TS]

00:03:02   your family and you know you hero here [TS]

00:03:05   this like laude Nov 12 pull up in the [TS]

00:03:07   driveway like oh god again didn't I said [TS]

00:03:11   you can hold on everyone does he have [TS]

00:03:13   the 599 I don't know I don't know I [TS]

00:03:15   don't know Ferraris want to even I was [TS]

00:03:17   just guessing there's probably a v12 one [TS]

00:03:19   there is only one uh was only one [TS]

00:03:22   well there's the eff is a p12 Casey [TS]

00:03:26   remember I thought so but I too am NOT [TS]

00:03:29   inside the idea for this this to [TS]

00:03:31   front-engine b12 sitting on one's really [TS]

00:03:34   ugly and four-wheel-drive that's the FF [TS]

00:03:36   yeah is that even Ferrari it really is [TS]

00:03:39   if it's ugly and four-wheel-drive it's [TS]

00:03:41   still is John would suffer through I [TS]

00:03:45   wouldn't have i got that i would sell a [TS]

00:03:46   million Byron a better [TS]

00:03:52   man anyway we should probably do some [TS]

00:03:54   follow-up shouldn't we tell me about [TS]

00:03:56   figma which I don't even remember [TS]

00:03:57   talking about it was that vector thing [TS]

00:03:59   remember that app that was gonna yes let [TS]

00:04:02   you draw vectors in a different way and [TS]

00:04:04   I said on the website that basically had [TS]

00:04:05   a big sign up button instead of a big [TS]

00:04:07   download buttons like I was nothing to [TS]

00:04:08   download it you know it like you can [TS]

00:04:10   sign up and i guess i'll tell you more [TS]

00:04:12   when it's ready like that as if nothing [TS]

00:04:13   wasn't out yet and David Klein treated [TS]

00:04:15   to say that he's a I believe figma is [TS]

00:04:17   one hundred percent in the browser [TS]

00:04:18   nothing to download so when it does [TS]

00:04:20   arrive apparently is going to be a web [TS]

00:04:21   app but i still think you can get drive [TS]

00:04:24   but anyway if i can try for free online [TS]

00:04:27   i definitely will because I'm interested [TS]

00:04:28   in how it's going to work [TS]

00:04:29   don't know that was quick and easy and [TS]

00:04:32   wanted to tell us about everyone's [TS]

00:04:33   favorite font comic sans yes it's friend [TS]

00:04:38   friend of the show and flop house [TS]

00:04:40   adjacent micro celebrity John McCoy and [TS]

00:04:44   a friend of mine pointed out that in all [TS]

00:04:46   our discussion of comic sans or our [TS]

00:04:48   Microsoft Bob rather we didn't mention [TS]

00:04:49   that comic sans the much-hated font was [TS]

00:04:52   created for but not shipped with [TS]

00:04:54   Microsoft Bob so you can read the [TS]

00:04:56   wikipedia entry on comics and you'll see [TS]

00:04:58   that it was created to try to fit in [TS]

00:05:00   with the Microsoft Bob world which [TS]

00:05:01   explains why it's so awful but it didn't [TS]

00:05:04   it didn't make it in time so they didn't [TS]

00:05:05   ship with it so i get another thing you [TS]

00:05:07   can blame on Microsoft Bob have you ever [TS]

00:05:10   used Microsoft Bob John i don't think so [TS]

00:05:12   i think only I've read about in [TS]

00:05:13   magazines when it came out but I don't I [TS]

00:05:16   don't I didn't have a pc obviously and [TS]

00:05:19   none of my friends who had a pc had it [TS]

00:05:20   all right John stop listening for a [TS]

00:05:22   second Casey we have 24 april fools day [TS]

00:05:24   somehow find a way to put Microsoft Bob [TS]

00:05:27   on a computer in john's office [TS]

00:05:30   I don't remember using it i bet you i [TS]

00:05:32   did at some point but i don't remember [TS]

00:05:34   having done so i installed windows a [TS]

00:05:36   Down of the am on my mac and I feel [TS]

00:05:38   really weird [TS]

00:05:39   well to be fair windows 8 felt really [TS]

00:05:41   weird to Windows users all signed up you [TS]

00:05:44   try like doing an edge swipe with the [TS]

00:05:46   mouse cursor on a windows vm it's really [TS]

00:05:48   hard [TS]

00:05:49   Wow again in all fairness doing [TS]

00:05:51   everything in Windows 8 is well just [TS]

00:05:54   remember that was my life boys until [TS]

00:05:55   just a couple weeks ago [TS]

00:05:56   congratulations again for getting out of [TS]

00:05:58   that thank you i'm so happy i really am [TS]

00:06:02   at anyway we are gonna follow up [TS]

00:06:05   we not thats it was it just too small [TS]

00:06:07   items wow look at this girl let's [TS]

00:06:10   celebrate by talking about something [TS]

00:06:11   awesome alright our first bunch of this [TS]

00:06:13   week is Squarespace start building your [TS]

00:06:16   website today at squarespace.com enter [TS]

00:06:18   offer code ATP and check out to get ten [TS]

00:06:21   percent off now look everybody I know [TS]

00:06:23   you know how to make websites and how to [TS]

00:06:25   make websites I don't make things about [TS]

00:06:27   using Squarespace but i usually don't [TS]

00:06:29   anymore because it's just not worth it [TS]

00:06:31   because square face gives you so much [TS]

00:06:33   functionality and great themes great [TS]

00:06:36   templates great support [TS]

00:06:38   there's so much they give you a square [TS]

00:06:39   space that is just simply isn't worth [TS]

00:06:41   making websites any other way [TS]

00:06:44   most of the time simple as that you know [TS]

00:06:46   I'm not gonna tell you there's never a [TS]

00:06:47   reason to not use Squarespace but i will [TS]

00:06:49   tell you that most of the time just use [TS]

00:06:51   a square face will save you a ton of [TS]

00:06:52   time and if you're making website for [TS]

00:06:54   other people it's even more compelling [TS]

00:06:55   because then other people can help [TS]

00:06:58   themselves with their website they don't [TS]

00:06:59   have to come to you ever want to change [TS]

00:07:01   you know whatever the sidebar whatever [TS]

00:07:02   they need tech support for the website [TS]

00:07:04   that you [TS]

00:07:04   ostensibly built for them they don't [TS]

00:07:06   have to ask you they can ask where space [TS]

00:07:08   so if you're making website for yourself [TS]

00:07:10   huge time savings if you're making up [TS]

00:07:11   for somebody else [TS]

00:07:13   you basically cut yourself out of the [TS]

00:07:14   picture immediately and then you can go [TS]

00:07:16   on with your life and not be involved [TS]

00:07:18   not be constantly on the hook for tech [TS]

00:07:20   support for other people it's amazing so [TS]

00:07:22   check out today there's tons of [TS]

00:07:23   functionality and Squarespace you can [TS]

00:07:25   build stores you can build your [TS]

00:07:27   portfolio's galleries even simple things [TS]

00:07:29   like blogs you can build podcast our [TS]

00:07:31   podcast host therefore the show I love [TS]

00:07:33   as well as many other podcast I know of [TS]

00:07:35   Squarespace is great for hosting so many [TS]

00:07:37   kinds of websites and it saves you so [TS]

00:07:40   much time and hassle from trying to do [TS]

00:07:41   things any other way before so check out [TS]

00:07:43   today it you can do a free trial with no [TS]

00:07:45   credit card required you can just really [TS]

00:07:48   do a free trial start making any website [TS]

00:07:50   you want today on Squarespace and see [TS]

00:07:51   how far you get in like an hour to I bet [TS]

00:07:54   you'll find that it is way easier and [TS]

00:07:57   way faster than any other solution [TS]

00:07:59   you've ever done before and then you're [TS]

00:08:00   just done then you can move on do [TS]

00:08:02   anything else with your time besides [TS]

00:08:03   making websites honestly I don't enjoy [TS]

00:08:05   making websites so Squarespace is great [TS]

00:08:08   because i don't want to spend a whole [TS]

00:08:09   bunch of time doing it [TS]

00:08:10   they take care of everything for me it's [TS]

00:08:11   so easy it's so great you can do so much [TS]

00:08:13   with so little effort [TS]

00:08:14   check it out today squarespace.com get [TS]

00:08:17   your free trial started right now [TS]

00:08:19   when you decide to sign up for [TS]

00:08:19   Squarespace make sure to use the offer [TS]

00:08:21   code ATP to get ten percent off your [TS]

00:08:23   first purchase thanks for the [TS]

00:08:25   squarespace for sponsoring our show so [TS]

00:08:27   there's been big breaking news that has [TS]

00:08:31   happened since we recorded last and I [TS]

00:08:34   think it's important we talk about it [TS]

00:08:36   microsoft has bought xamarin sorry I [TS]

00:08:40   just [TS]

00:08:41   yeah at that is fine i I really [TS]

00:08:44   appreciated your your your intro there [TS]

00:08:46   didn't think much about salmon but if [TS]

00:08:49   you had asked me hey I did some company [TS]

00:08:52   owns a marine now I would have maybe [TS]

00:08:53   guest microsoft I know like like netware [TS]

00:08:56   on them at some point something like [TS]

00:08:58   that yeah but I'd basically honest I'd [TS]

00:09:00   lost track of who own them and they've [TS]

00:09:02   been so closely associated with [TS]

00:09:03   Microsoft that if you had told me oh [TS]

00:09:05   yeah no microphone xamarin I was like oh [TS]

00:09:07   yeah that sounds right so the fact that [TS]

00:09:09   Michael bought them make sense to me [TS]

00:09:12   I think yes let me let me catch everyone [TS]

00:09:14   up so xamarin was originally called mono [TS]

00:09:19   and it was an open-source reinforcement [TS]

00:09:22   ation of dotnet that was designed to [TS]

00:09:24   bring dotnet other platforms and [TS]

00:09:26   initially this really meant linux but [TS]

00:09:28   over time it became more about allowing [TS]

00:09:31   you to write dotnet code usually c-sharp [TS]

00:09:34   code that ran on Android and iOS and I [TS]

00:09:38   looked at it way back when it was mano 1 [TS]

00:09:40   i'm sorry it was it was a long time ago [TS]

00:09:42   right when they first started supporting [TS]

00:09:43   the iphone forget what version that was [TS]

00:09:45   and as we talked about a handful of [TS]

00:09:48   times on the show [TS]

00:09:49   it felt like exactly how I would have [TS]

00:09:51   written a bridging platform to go [TS]

00:09:54   between the world of C sharp and and iOS [TS]

00:09:58   it that's a compliment it felt really [TS]

00:09:59   really good now it's still a total hack [TS]

00:10:01   but it it felt it felt like it was [TS]

00:10:05   really well-designed and really really [TS]

00:10:06   well done and so Microsoft has since [TS]

00:10:09   bought samer in which again used to be [TS]

00:10:11   called mono so now it's being folded [TS]

00:10:13   into microsoft and this is kind of an [TS]

00:10:14   extension of what they did a years so [TS]

00:10:17   maybe two years ago when they open [TS]

00:10:19   sourced a lot of the.net framework so in [TS]

00:10:21   some parts see that salmon and other [TS]

00:10:24   people like them could use Microsoft [TS]

00:10:26   code in order to get the bits of dotnet [TS]

00:10:29   they needed and then xamarin could go [TS]

00:10:31   back to doing the things they were [TS]

00:10:32   that which was just building that like [TS]

00:10:34   cross-platform layer so Microsoft is [TS]

00:10:36   buying xamarin we'll see what that means [TS]

00:10:38   I'm this reminds me of our conversations [TS]

00:10:40   in the past about project island would [TS]

00:10:42   which was / is I haven't really kept up [TS]

00:10:46   with it a cross-platform setup that [TS]

00:10:49   microsoft had to bring iOS apps onto [TS]

00:10:52   Windows 10 [TS]

00:10:54   I think that's mostly died is that true [TS]

00:10:56   was it ever alive I mean like I know [TS]

00:10:57   that they they have released that in [TS]

00:11:00   some form and I know people look at the [TS]

00:11:01   code and it was horrendous and full of [TS]

00:11:03   tons of like temporary hacks and like to [TS]

00:11:06   do implementations and everything and [TS]

00:11:08   because wasn't like a real [TS]

00:11:09   implementation of UI kit and on time was [TS]

00:11:11   the idea and remember Kate didn't come [TS]

00:11:13   out like right after Swift was announced [TS]

00:11:16   and there and is not compatible Swift at [TS]

00:11:18   all and so there was a tissue and then [TS]

00:11:20   the other issue is yeah like they [TS]

00:11:21   basically it tries to be a layer so that [TS]

00:11:23   you can write use it basically can port [TS]

00:11:26   your iOS app right over to windows phone [TS]

00:11:29   or windows in general I don't know which [TS]

00:11:31   version of windows but I right over to [TS]

00:11:33   windows something or other and it was [TS]

00:11:35   just really mentally all the all the [TS]

00:11:36   basic I was frameworks and I honestly [TS]

00:11:39   have not heard of anybody using it for [TS]

00:11:41   any reason I mean the reason why iOS [TS]

00:11:44   developers are not making their their [TS]

00:11:46   apps for Windows is not because we can't [TS]

00:11:49   cross compile them it's because we don't [TS]

00:11:51   care because I'm going to the market [TS]

00:11:53   literally I'm not trying to be mean it's [TS]

00:11:55   like if you're if we wanted to make apps [TS]

00:11:57   for those platforms we would just make [TS]

00:11:59   them correctly you know it using their [TS]

00:12:01   native tools in their native apps the [TS]

00:12:03   fact that there's this weird half [TS]

00:12:05   compatibility layer that is kind of [TS]

00:12:08   half-baked and kind of half works and is [TS]

00:12:11   probably only have supported by anybody [TS]

00:12:13   that's not really gonna change anyone's [TS]

00:12:15   mind meaningfully you know that that [TS]

00:12:16   might help out a couple of consultants [TS]

00:12:19   on really tight time constraints but [TS]

00:12:20   even then like our clients have been [TS]

00:12:22   asking for Windows apps like it isn't [TS]

00:12:25   that just seems like there is so little [TS]

00:12:27   demand and will for people to make [TS]

00:12:30   Windows apps [TS]

00:12:31   this is not going to meaningful change [TS]

00:12:33   that now this was the nineties the old [TS]

00:12:36   star was like don't bother trying to [TS]

00:12:39   make a linux compatible implementation [TS]

00:12:41   of [TS]

00:12:41   the the common language runtime or.net [TS]

00:12:43   because you're just playing at the [TS]

00:12:45   microsoft trap and even though microsoft [TS]

00:12:47   says all these things about oh you know [TS]

00:12:48   cross-platform runtime virtual machine [TS]

00:12:51   environment c-sharp blah blah [TS]

00:12:54   really what they're just trying to do is [TS]

00:12:55   trap you so that's why the linux [TS]

00:12:56   computer you're always kind of looked at [TS]

00:12:58   them you know with a little bit where [TS]

00:13:01   Lee saying i don't really want to make [TS]

00:13:04   any linux apps using the Microsoft no no [TS]

00:13:06   it's not a microsoft technologies [TS]

00:13:07   totally open it'll be just like I don't [TS]

00:13:09   know about that and if we were still in [TS]

00:13:11   the nineties and Microsoft was still [TS]

00:13:13   like company that everyone was scared of [TS]

00:13:14   and everyone suspected they were going [TS]

00:13:15   to you know embrace extend extinguish [TS]

00:13:17   all this other stuff whatever will be [TS]

00:13:19   saying was see we were really smart not [TS]

00:13:21   to try to build anything and linux based [TS]

00:13:23   on the the common language runtime [TS]

00:13:24   dotnet because if we did now Microsoft [TS]

00:13:26   bought them and guess what all that [TS]

00:13:27   cross-platform stuff that that they were [TS]

00:13:30   doing before well that's all over now [TS]

00:13:31   and everything that is examined is going [TS]

00:13:33   to become windows-only another gonna be [TS]

00:13:35   cross-platform anymore because you know [TS]

00:13:37   it was just like it was a trap basically [TS]

00:13:38   get people to distract Linux which is a [TS]

00:13:41   big threat to microsoft and their mind [TS]

00:13:43   back in the nineties and two to use [TS]

00:13:46   microsoft technologies and then take [TS]

00:13:47   those technologies away and make them [TS]

00:13:50   provider that point but of course the [TS]

00:13:53   modern microsoft by examine exactly the [TS]

00:13:55   opposite reasons because their company [TS]

00:13:57   that has shown that they're good at [TS]

00:13:58   doing things cross platform and the new [TS]

00:14:00   microsoft wants to sell whatever it is [TS]

00:14:03   they have to sell to as many people as [TS]

00:14:05   possible and then moving away from the [TS]

00:14:08   only way to get this is to get it on [TS]

00:14:10   windows you know as your web services [TS]

00:14:12   are an example according iOS developers [TS]

00:14:14   and stuff to you can use these web [TS]

00:14:16   services with your iOS app will they'll [TS]

00:14:19   they'll sell anything to anyone because [TS]

00:14:21   they think they have valuable things and [TS]

00:14:22   they're no longer in a position where [TS]

00:14:23   they could say we have valuable [TS]

00:14:26   technology and only way you can get it [TS]

00:14:28   is to be microsoft and windows and [TS]

00:14:29   proprietary top to bottom because nobody [TS]

00:14:31   does that anymore it's not it's not like [TS]

00:14:32   it's not even an option so I think this [TS]

00:14:35   purchase of samurai would have blown the [TS]

00:14:37   minds of like linux advocates in the [TS]

00:14:39   nineties idea that they're buying them [TS]

00:14:40   because they're so good across platform [TS]

00:14:42   stuff that surely what they're going to [TS]

00:14:44   do with those people and that technology [TS]

00:14:45   is more clock cross-platform things not [TS]

00:14:48   like oh now finally we can stop people [TS]

00:14:50   from using our technology to do anything [TS]

00:14:53   except for make apps for our platform [TS]

00:14:54   so here's a question I don't you know I [TS]

00:14:58   haven't looked too much into this so [TS]

00:15:00   forgive me but you know back in the in [TS]

00:15:02   the in the nineties when someone you [TS]

00:15:04   know sun microsystems made this really [TS]

00:15:06   really expensive custom proprietary [TS]

00:15:09   hardware and software to run the custom [TS]

00:15:11   son boxes and then son invented Java and [TS]

00:15:15   Java who is seen by many as kind of a [TS]

00:15:17   big strategic blunder by sun because the [TS]

00:15:20   whole point of Java is to make [TS]

00:15:22   proprietary platform and hardware [TS]

00:15:23   completely irrelevant marginalize them [TS]

00:15:25   and make the same software on everywhere [TS]

00:15:26   and so many people think that was son [TS]

00:15:29   kind of eroding their own companies [TS]

00:15:32   strong points and their own revenue [TS]

00:15:33   sources trying to apply that today I [TS]

00:15:36   mean do you like what is microsoft get [TS]

00:15:39   big picture wise long-term wise what did [TS]

00:15:41   they get out of making linux servers a a [TS]

00:15:46   first-class platform for.net development [TS]

00:15:49   because right now Microsoft makes a big [TS]

00:15:52   portion of the revenue with Windows [TS]

00:15:54   servers and windows server side [TS]

00:15:55   components and licensing from that and [TS]

00:15:58   you know how does that obviously like [TS]

00:16:01   with with with such a new Della's new [TS]

00:16:03   leadership focus more on services and [TS]

00:16:05   enterprise stuff it seems like this [TS]

00:16:07   might be the opposite of what they [TS]

00:16:08   wanted to do right like it seems like [TS]

00:16:10   this is long-term removing them from [TS]

00:16:13   from being required to use their tools [TS]

00:16:16   so now you know like the server side [TS]

00:16:18   stuff now like before [TS]

00:16:19   so one of the biggest reasons why people [TS]

00:16:22   would buy windows servers was not [TS]

00:16:24   because they're particularly amazing but [TS]

00:16:26   because they had to to run their dotnet [TS]

00:16:28   server stuff because that stuff is what [TS]

00:16:30   they were comfortable developing in or [TS]

00:16:32   what they use already or what was best [TS]

00:16:33   for them for whatever reason so windows [TS]

00:16:35   had a lot of my client had a lot of a [TS]

00:16:37   server-side software sales from people [TS]

00:16:40   who are kind of forced to use windows [TS]

00:16:41   server who might have chosen linux if [TS]

00:16:43   they could have and with these and [TS]

00:16:45   they're you know this the mono project [TS]

00:16:47   and then the summer and things like this [TS]

00:16:49   this is not new but it is it's always [TS]

00:16:52   kind of been like a second class citizen [TS]

00:16:53   it was always kinda like well if you [TS]

00:16:56   were the IT manager you probably [TS]

00:16:57   wouldn't choose that because you'd be [TS]

00:16:59   you'd be scared of compatibility or [TS]

00:17:00   whatever so what [TS]

00:17:03   how does it help Microsoft now [TS]

00:17:05   to have linux be or become soon a first [TS]

00:17:08   class citizen to run their their server [TS]

00:17:11   side stuff which means nobody wants [TS]

00:17:13   nobody needs to buy windows server [TS]

00:17:14   anymore [TS]

00:17:15   why does it help Apple to open-source [TS]

00:17:17   Swift it or let me rephrase why does it [TS]

00:17:22   help Apple to make swift compatible with [TS]

00:17:24   linux that's a better question [TS]

00:17:26   well i think first of all that Apple [TS]

00:17:28   needs Swift on linux because they need [TS]

00:17:31   to run their own services on it I i [TS]

00:17:33   think that that's a big thing right now [TS]

00:17:34   with apple is that their services are [TS]

00:17:36   are built on what was rumored to be a [TS]

00:17:41   lot of web objects and old java stuff [TS]

00:17:43   and just kinda just like old stuff that [TS]

00:17:45   is that he either is not maintained [TS]

00:17:47   anymore was maintained only by apple or [TS]

00:17:49   is not the right tool for the job or [TS]

00:17:51   just in disrepair and so I think Apple [TS]

00:17:53   really wants Swift on linux for [TS]

00:17:57   themselves for their own service [TS]

00:17:58   division with Microsoft I don't know how [TS]

00:18:01   much they need III don't know I I don't [TS]

00:18:02   know that that's why I'm asking like [TS]

00:18:03   this this is I don't know that is [TS]

00:18:05   necessarily even a good question but [TS]

00:18:06   just like it is a good idea for [TS]

00:18:08   Microsoft long-term to to make Windows [TS]

00:18:11   Server unnecessary but they make their [TS]

00:18:14   money off windows server as much as they [TS]

00:18:16   make it off exchange licenses and office [TS]

00:18:18   licenses and stuff and like they're like [TS]

00:18:20   the Oracle is a great example [TS]

00:18:22   oracle is enterprise software company [TS]

00:18:23   that makes tons and tons of money and [TS]

00:18:28   they don't sell that they don't force [TS]

00:18:29   you to buy an operating system i mean [TS]

00:18:31   they do have oracle enterprise linux [TS]

00:18:32   right but it's linux right that they [TS]

00:18:34   don't sell hardware uh they're just [TS]

00:18:36   selling you their software and it's [TS]

00:18:38   qualified and certain piece of hardware [TS]

00:18:40   and his relationships with people who [TS]

00:18:41   will sell you the hardware and what OS [TS]

00:18:43   you should have or whatever but that's [TS]

00:18:45   when you sell what they're going to do [TS]

00:18:47   what i want to use it and exchange [TS]

00:18:49   license for certain number of people to [TS]

00:18:51   remember and it's not as if doing this [TS]

00:18:54   makes it more likely that there will be [TS]

00:18:56   in a successful exchange competitor like [TS]

00:18:58   Google's always tried to do with Google [TS]

00:18:59   Apps and everything which is entirely [TS]

00:19:00   different approach and much more server [TS]

00:19:02   side but as far as Marcus officers [TS]

00:19:03   concerned you mentioned like Apple I [TS]

00:19:05   call apple has unlimited service of [TS]

00:19:06   course they want to work on linux it's [TS]

00:19:08   not unreasonable to imagine that [TS]

00:19:10   Microsoft might decide kind of like I [TS]

00:19:14   mean you talk about some before one of [TS]

00:19:15   things did son-in-law [TS]

00:19:16   was linux right the idea that you can [TS]

00:19:19   only run exchange on a Windows Server [TS]

00:19:21   it's crappy for kind of everyone [TS]

00:19:24   including Microsoft Word Microsoft ever [TS]

00:19:26   want to you know can you imagine a world [TS]

00:19:29   where microsoft sold you exchange an [TS]

00:19:31   office all which ran on the links of [TS]

00:19:33   your choice but a couple that microsoft [TS]

00:19:35   recommends including maybe Microsoft [TS]

00:19:36   variant of linux sure because if that [TS]

00:19:39   means that that Microsoft doesn't have [TS]

00:19:41   to spend money maintaining a proprietary [TS]

00:19:43   server is that was never quite as good [TS]

00:19:44   as linux anyway that's a win that's [TS]

00:19:47   sacrilege and like the Steve Ballmer [TS]

00:19:48   think what are you talking about Windows [TS]

00:19:49   is the crown jewel and blah blah but [TS]

00:19:51   this is a brave new world here if you're [TS]

00:19:52   really gonna do services [TS]

00:19:54   you can't be tied to a particular server [TS]

00:19:58   platform especially when it's one that's [TS]

00:19:59   like more difficult to manage it has [TS]

00:20:01   fewer companies behind in linux is [TS]

00:20:03   basically raced across the entire server [TS]

00:20:06   side ecosystem erasing every single [TS]

00:20:08   proprietary competitor so much so that [TS]

00:20:10   former primary competitors say okay well [TS]

00:20:12   we'll just have own variant of linux and [TS]

00:20:14   everyone's okay with that and just like [TS]

00:20:15   that's like that part of the ecosystem [TS]

00:20:17   has not been become the part where you [TS]

00:20:20   make your money and enterprise has never [TS]

00:20:21   been you make money of support contracts [TS]

00:20:23   and licensing and and charging procedure [TS]

00:20:25   / cpu or whatever that you do you don't [TS]

00:20:27   make it off selling them are Hardware [TS]

00:20:29   boxes or os licenses [TS]

00:20:31   yeah I couldn't agree with that enough I [TS]

00:20:33   remember being tangentially involved [TS]

00:20:36   with pricing quotes for things like [TS]

00:20:38   sharepoint and his talk and all of these [TS]

00:20:41   big big big software packages that are [TS]

00:20:44   not the server these are the things here [TS]

00:20:46   installing windows server and I can't [TS]

00:20:49   remember the details now but oftentimes [TS]

00:20:50   was by processor then when wen [TS]

00:20:52   multi-core processors became a thing I [TS]

00:20:55   think at some point some software might [TS]

00:20:56   have been moved to a bike or [TS]

00:20:58   installation costs so if you have a 15 [TS]

00:21:02   Corps computer that doesn't make any [TS]

00:21:04   sense a 16-core computer with you know I [TS]

00:21:07   don't know four processors then you're [TS]

00:21:09   paying 16 times whatever the single [TS]

00:21:12   amount is like they make absurd amounts [TS]

00:21:15   of money off of the software just [TS]

00:21:17   comically large amounts of money off the [TS]

00:21:18   software and to come back to it one of [TS]

00:21:21   your original questions Marco like why [TS]

00:21:22   would why would what what is microsoft [TS]

00:21:25   in what did they get out of this i think [TS]

00:21:28   what Microsoft gets out of this [TS]

00:21:30   is they it would be neat for them if [TS]

00:21:34   writing C sharp was kind of the lingua [TS]

00:21:38   franca of server-side programming and [TS]

00:21:40   obviously there will never be one [TS]

00:21:41   language that's that's the standard [TS]

00:21:43   language of server-side programming but [TS]

00:21:45   in the same way that java is huge today [TS]

00:21:47   in part because it's open source so much [TS]

00:21:51   of that is going open source now that [TS]

00:21:53   why couldn't a dotnet be the new Java in [TS]

00:21:57   the future and because it's the old Java [TS]

00:21:59   well that's better than the old Java [TS]

00:22:02   it's a lot as it has better support you [TS]

00:22:04   know me like that especially now that [TS]

00:22:05   son has been gobbled up and everything [TS]

00:22:08   like who is I mean I guess java lurches [TS]

00:22:10   forward but if anyone was going to [TS]

00:22:12   compete against java as like Casey says [TS]

00:22:14   the sort of default safe enterprise [TS]

00:22:17   server side language it would be C sharp [TS]

00:22:19   and part of the thing it's been hurting [TS]

00:22:21   microsoft story is here but then we [TS]

00:22:24   gotta buy windows servers and everyone [TS]

00:22:25   knows that feeling like especially if [TS]

00:22:27   you have an organization that has all [TS]

00:22:29   their other servers that are living [TS]

00:22:30   space then everyone's happy with them [TS]

00:22:31   and they're all they have to have an [TS]

00:22:33   entire organization built up around [TS]

00:22:34   managing those servers and like the idea [TS]

00:22:36   that they can buy different hardware [TS]

00:22:37   from different vendors and and change [TS]

00:22:39   you know different distributions and [TS]

00:22:41   everything like that and then someone [TS]

00:22:42   comes in and says hey you guys should [TS]

00:22:43   use a sharp and write all your services [TS]

00:22:46   seven sharp using this service side [TS]

00:22:48   frame working at the end like hopin we [TS]

00:22:50   have to introduce windows servers and [TS]

00:22:52   nobody wants that like you can't really [TS]

00:22:53   mix it up it's almost like they keep [TS]

00:22:54   those people separate like you have one [TS]

00:22:56   set of people who manage the the [TS]

00:22:59   linux-based servers and one set of [TS]

00:23:02   people who manage the window space [TS]

00:23:03   service and I don't know if you bring [TS]

00:23:04   people to the same room that they were [TS]

00:23:05   just collide annihilate and i think the [TS]

00:23:10   other thing we should say a couple quick [TS]

00:23:11   notes first of all csharp is great [TS]

00:23:14   language you really really is i know [TS]

00:23:15   they're going to be people out there who [TS]

00:23:17   are rolling their eyes but truly c-sharp [TS]

00:23:19   is a wonderful wonderful language that [TS]

00:23:21   can be many many many different things [TS]

00:23:23   too many many many different people and [TS]

00:23:25   i've been writing a lot of Swift over [TS]

00:23:27   the last couple of weeks and i'm really [TS]

00:23:29   loving Swift but csharp is also a truly [TS]

00:23:32   wonderful language and fixes many of the [TS]

00:23:35   ills that java brought to the table and [TS]

00:23:38   let's assume for a second that you're [TS]

00:23:42   firm or your staff is really into [TS]

00:23:44   c-sharp l maybe they've never touched [TS]

00:23:47   Microsoft servers but they're really [TS]

00:23:50   into c sharp and they think to [TS]

00:23:51   themselves man i really want to go to [TS]

00:23:54   the cloud with the c-sharp instead of [TS]

00:23:56   staying on premise with linux or [TS]

00:23:57   on-premises with Microsoft it doesn't [TS]

00:23:59   matter what cloud environment should we [TS]

00:24:02   go to we could just go to Azure which [TS]

00:24:05   probably will do very well with AC sharp [TS]

00:24:08   base deployment and even faster is is [TS]

00:24:11   Microsoft service behind-the-scenes who [TS]

00:24:12   cares because you don't have to worry [TS]

00:24:14   about it anyway so i think that there's [TS]

00:24:17   plenty to gain from Microsoft by doing [TS]

00:24:19   this but we'll see what really ends up [TS]

00:24:22   happening about I don't know how much [TS]

00:24:23   Sam and specifically will make a [TS]

00:24:25   difference but the idea of Microsoft [TS]

00:24:26   pushing to being everywhere are to [TS]

00:24:30   having two sharp everywhere i think is a [TS]

00:24:31   good thing [TS]

00:24:32   John any other last thoughts you have a [TS]

00:24:34   one minor point of speaking about the [TS]

00:24:37   oracle and sun yes of course Oracle was [TS]

00:24:38   the company the bots on which means that [TS]

00:24:40   oracle does actually sell hardware [TS]

00:24:41   narrow because some used to sell [TS]

00:24:42   hardware and now Oracle software through [TS]

00:24:45   sounds they sell ZFS storage devices and [TS]

00:24:46   stuff like that thing does that count [TS]

00:24:49   I'll count is that kind of the day [TS]

00:24:52   ZFS storage devices there are file [TS]

00:24:54   systems on them [TS]

00:24:55   I don't think it counts but that's a [TS]

00:24:57   tough one right over so i rescind i [TS]

00:24:59   rescind my ding a second sponsor this [TS]

00:25:02   week is fracture go to fracture me.com [TS]

00:25:05   to see for yourself and use code ATP ten [TS]

00:25:07   to ten for ten percent off your first [TS]

00:25:09   order fracture prints photos in vivid [TS]

00:25:12   color directly onto glass now colors pop [TS]

00:25:15   like you won't believe it comes in a [TS]

00:25:16   solid backing it's ready to mount right [TS]

00:25:19   out of the package all you have to do is [TS]

00:25:21   stick the included screws in the wall [TS]

00:25:22   and hang it up done also very affordable [TS]

00:25:25   with prices starting in just fifteen [TS]

00:25:26   dollars for their small square size and [TS]

00:25:28   going very reasonably from their [TS]

00:25:29   fracture prints are great and they make [TS]

00:25:32   great gifts for family friends and loved [TS]

00:25:34   ones because they're already the perfect [TS]

00:25:36   way to celebrate a shared memory with [TS]

00:25:37   something that's also unique and modern [TS]

00:25:39   and they're really affordable and it [TS]

00:25:40   look really good [TS]

00:25:41   so check it out today go to fracture [TS]

00:25:43   me.com again use code ATP ten for ten [TS]

00:25:47   percent off your first order they're I [TS]

00:25:49   fracture all over all over our house now [TS]

00:25:51   they used to start off in the office [TS]

00:25:53   there now spreading to the rest of the [TS]

00:25:55   house now [TS]

00:25:56   and everyone always compliments them [TS]

00:25:57   people love these things they look great [TS]

00:25:59   these great photo prints right there on [TS]

00:26:01   glass these nice thin lightweight pieces [TS]

00:26:04   of glass that you it's not gonna like [TS]

00:26:05   fall off the walls giant heavy pain it's [TS]

00:26:07   a nice thin piece of glass and it sits [TS]

00:26:10   there nice and flat against the wall and [TS]

00:26:11   it just looks modern and clean you don't [TS]

00:26:14   forget frame you don't try to flatten [TS]

00:26:16   the paper and it within the frame [TS]

00:26:18   against the glass none of that stuff [TS]

00:26:20   easy simple they look great they're [TS]

00:26:23   incredibly well priced check out today [TS]

00:26:25   at fracture me.com use code ATP ten for [TS]

00:26:28   ten percent off thanks a lot to fracture [TS]

00:26:30   for sponsorship yes so there's been some [TS]

00:26:32   interesting things going on with the [TS]

00:26:34   United States government and apple and I [TS]

00:26:37   don't even I do we really need to recap [TS]

00:26:40   this I guess we probably should give the [TS]

00:26:41   short version of an overview would be [TS]

00:26:43   helpful for people who listen in the [TS]

00:26:45   future [TS]

00:26:46   yeah although anyone listening store in [TS]

00:26:48   real time as we know that the star came [TS]

00:26:49   out right after recorded last week so [TS]

00:26:51   presumably everyone listening to the [TS]

00:26:53   show when it's released knows all the [TS]

00:26:54   details but we should summarize is does [TS]

00:26:57   that mean I'm the one summarizing I can [TS]

00:26:59   we can take a crack at it real quick you [TS]

00:27:01   do seem to be the chief summarizer on [TS]

00:27:03   the show maybe John you and John is [TS]

00:27:05   arced are closed for that I don't know [TS]

00:27:06   co-chief summarizer i'm certainly not so [TS]

00:27:09   i know i'm saying i can sit back and [TS]

00:27:10   drink my tea right how about I'll take a [TS]

00:27:12   stab at it here and you guys can [TS]

00:27:14   interrupt your ready so there was a [TS]

00:27:18   terrible terrible terrible shooting in [TS]

00:27:20   december i believe last year in San [TS]

00:27:22   Bernardino California a couple of people [TS]

00:27:25   took it upon themselves to commit this [TS]

00:27:28   really heinous act and kill a lot of [TS]

00:27:29   people and that's really really terrible [TS]

00:27:31   and there's no there's no discussion [TS]

00:27:33   about that it's it's terrible [TS]

00:27:35   it was a terrorist act it it's something [TS]

00:27:38   that's really unfortunate these two [TS]

00:27:40   people suspects perpetrators whatever we [TS]

00:27:42   like to call them they one of them it [TS]

00:27:44   was a husband-wife pair of the husband [TS]

00:27:47   had two phones two iphones as far as we [TS]

00:27:50   know one of them was destroyed that was [TS]

00:27:52   his personal phone his wife's personal [TS]

00:27:53   phone also destroyed [TS]

00:27:55   he also had an iphone 5c that was issued [TS]

00:27:57   to him by his job which coincidentally [TS]

00:28:00   is the San Bernardino government the [TS]

00:28:04   iphone 5c has passcode on it [TS]

00:28:06   and it is quite possible that if you it [TS]

00:28:10   could be set up such that if you enter [TS]

00:28:12   the passcode incorrectly ten times in a [TS]

00:28:14   row it will nuke everything on the phone [TS]

00:28:16   the iphone is in the custody of the [TS]

00:28:20   federal bureau of investigation the FBI [TS]

00:28:23   the FBI wants what's on that phone but [TS]

00:28:26   they can't get to it because it has this [TS]

00:28:28   passcode it could have the destruction [TS]

00:28:31   setting turned on such that if they [TS]

00:28:33   enter the wrong code ten times it will [TS]

00:28:36   destroy itself or destroy all the data [TS]

00:28:38   additionally they were advised by apple [TS]

00:28:41   at some point or another hey we have [TS]

00:28:45   iCloud backup so we don't have any from [TS]

00:28:47   the last six or so weeks I forget [TS]

00:28:48   exactly how many it doesn't really [TS]

00:28:50   matter [TS]

00:28:51   we don't have a recent like iCloud [TS]

00:28:53   backup we have a semi recent one and you [TS]

00:28:56   know what you should do is you should [TS]

00:28:57   take the phone and bring it to this [TS]

00:28:58   guy's work where presumably there is a [TS]

00:29:02   known a Wi-Fi network and you should [TS]

00:29:05   turn the phone on and just let it sit [TS]

00:29:06   overnight plug-in let it sit overnight [TS]

00:29:08   and presumably if everything has been [TS]

00:29:10   set the way it usually is set that will [TS]

00:29:13   back up the thermal back itself up to [TS]

00:29:15   iCloud one more time and it [TS]

00:29:18   the implication from what we've read is [TS]

00:29:20   that not everything in iCloud as well [TS]

00:29:22   encrypted as perhaps we'd like it to be [TS]

00:29:24   thus Apple could get to that data and [TS]

00:29:27   handed over to the FBI and everyone's [TS]

00:29:28   happy [TS]

00:29:29   I'm actually honestly I'm pretty sure [TS]

00:29:30   from Apple's point of view [TS]

00:29:32   nothing I cloud is encrypted is so every [TS]

00:29:34   big you can you can do the encrypted [TS]

00:29:36   backups through itunes on your desktop [TS]

00:29:38   and is off by default so for a while as [TS]

00:29:41   we all learned whenever we get a new [TS]

00:29:42   phone or phone with diabetic a [TS]

00:29:43   replacement on with the render all our [TS]

00:29:46   passwords and the reason why is because [TS]

00:29:48   anything is encrypted on the device in [TS]

00:29:50   the keychain which is all your passwords [TS]

00:29:52   and stuff restored the by any [TS]

00:29:55   unencrypted backup does not include [TS]

00:29:57   those things so by default the itunes [TS]

00:29:59   back up to and including unless you [TS]

00:30:01   check little boxing and keep my backup [TS]

00:30:02   which we all do because we are [TS]

00:30:04   professional iphone restores but not [TS]

00:30:06   everyone knows that and then with iCloud [TS]

00:30:08   backups there is no option to encrypt [TS]

00:30:10   iCloud backups at least not today maybe [TS]

00:30:12   in the future there will be as a result [TS]

00:30:14   of this but they are encrypted but Apple [TS]

00:30:16   has the key [TS]

00:30:16   alright so they aren't yet they are [TS]

00:30:18   encrypted to apple [TS]

00:30:19   no and so as a result nothing that's [TS]

00:30:22   that's encrypted on the phone in key [TS]

00:30:24   chain gets backed up so but it almost [TS]

00:30:26   everything like any kind of like content [TS]

00:30:28   you know text messages I i assume would [TS]

00:30:31   be there any kind of you know appdata [TS]

00:30:33   that's that's marked as be as being for [TS]

00:30:37   backup [TS]

00:30:38   so documents you've made an appt and [TS]

00:30:39   everything those would be included an [TS]

00:30:41   apple had access to all those an apple [TS]

00:30:43   gave access to all of those to the FBI [TS]

00:30:45   before this even blew up and became a [TS]

00:30:47   thing because apple had access to them [TS]

00:30:49   through my club but they only had an [TS]

00:30:51   older backup if several weeks old it [TS]

00:30:52   doesn't matter how many so they advise [TS]

00:30:56   the FBI in san bernardino please take [TS]

00:30:58   the phone to the San Bernardino [TS]

00:30:59   government whatever particular branch is [TS]

00:31:00   this person was in leave it on overnight [TS]

00:31:02   and it all back yourself up to iCloud at [TS]

00:31:05   which point the police and FBI awkwardly [TS]

00:31:08   grabbed their collars pulling them away [TS]

00:31:09   from their necks and said about that we [TS]

00:31:13   might have changed his iCloud password [TS]

00:31:15   already so that phone is gonna try to [TS]

00:31:20   back up to iCloud maybe and it's going [TS]

00:31:23   to see that it doesn't really have the [TS]

00:31:25   right password so that's not gonna work [TS]

00:31:28   right so the FBI's decided to ask Apple [TS]

00:31:33   for a few things [TS]

00:31:36   it's that it would like apple to write a [TS]

00:31:38   custom build of iOS that as far as the [TS]

00:31:42   FBI is concerned they are happy to be [TS]

00:31:44   signed in such a way that it would only [TS]

00:31:47   work on this particular device it will [TS]

00:31:50   allow them to it will bypass the setting [TS]

00:31:54   that will self-destruct the encryption [TS]

00:31:57   after ten failed password attempts so [TS]

00:32:00   they can attempt as many as I'd like [TS]

00:32:02   additionally they like any sort of time [TS]

00:32:05   delay to go away if there is one and I [TS]

00:32:08   forget exactly when those came in when [TS]

00:32:09   they're when they're when they're not [TS]

00:32:10   but suffice to say there is a time delay [TS]

00:32:12   they'd like to go away and additionally [TS]

00:32:13   they like to be able to enter the [TS]

00:32:14   passcode not by media fingers on the [TS]

00:32:16   screen but by bluetooth or Wi-Fi or a [TS]

00:32:19   cable or anyway so that it can be [TS]

00:32:22   automated with an external computer [TS]

00:32:24   the FBI is said we'd like to do it at [TS]

00:32:26   our place or apple if you'd prefer we [TS]

00:32:28   can do it at your house [TS]

00:32:30   that's fine too the the endgame for the [TS]

00:32:32   FBI [TS]

00:32:33   is that they want to be able to throw a [TS]

00:32:36   gazillion passcodes at this thing in a [TS]

00:32:38   very short window of time to brute force [TS]

00:32:40   their way into it so that by some [TS]

00:32:45   measures and we'll get into what we [TS]

00:32:46   think here in a second but some people [TS]

00:32:49   will are of the opinion that that's a [TS]

00:32:50   perfectly reasonable point of view from [TS]

00:32:52   the FBI that they only wanted for one [TS]

00:32:55   phone [TS]

00:32:56   they only want to do it this once and [TS]

00:32:58   they they're even willing to have apple [TS]

00:33:00   do it in in cupertino and Apple's own [TS]

00:33:03   environment and the FBI will either come [TS]

00:33:05   to them or if Apple gives them like [TS]

00:33:07   remote access to a machine that can [TS]

00:33:10   enter passcode the FBI will do it [TS]

00:33:12   remotely they don't care they just [TS]

00:33:13   wanted this one time for this one phone [TS]

00:33:15   to see if possibly maybe something on [TS]

00:33:19   that will indicate that this was part of [TS]

00:33:21   a wider terrorist plot rather than a [TS]

00:33:23   couple of crazy people doing something [TS]

00:33:25   that is really really on just uncool [TS]

00:33:28   that's the FBI's perspective apples [TS]

00:33:31   perspective is hey if we do this once [TS]

00:33:34   that's establishing a legal precedent [TS]

00:33:36   that means you can ask us to do this [TS]

00:33:38   many many more times [TS]

00:33:40   not only that but we would have to write [TS]

00:33:43   code to do this and that seems a bit [TS]

00:33:44   unreasonable to tell us to write a bunch [TS]

00:33:46   of code to allow you to tu brute force [TS]

00:33:50   your way into a phone that we've spent a [TS]

00:33:52   long time trying to make sure that isn't [TS]

00:33:55   possible [TS]

00:33:56   beyond that a lot of government entities [TS]

00:34:00   have come out of the woodwork over the [TS]

00:34:01   last 48 hours saying you know what if [TS]

00:34:04   this works for the FBI we have a bunch [TS]

00:34:06   of iphones we'd like to do that for two [TS]

00:34:08   ok cool sounds great so Apple is of the [TS]

00:34:11   opinion that this is a backdoor and [TS]

00:34:13   again we'll get into what we think in a [TS]

00:34:15   second but apple says this is a backdoor [TS]

00:34:17   and in fact just earlier today Tim Cook [TS]

00:34:20   was didn't it especially with ABC News [TS]

00:34:23   where he used the analogy that creating [TS]

00:34:27   this is like creating a software version [TS]

00:34:28   of cancer which by the way i think a [TS]

00:34:30   virus would be a better analogy there [TS]

00:34:32   then test as well yeah I thought he [TS]

00:34:36   hammered that analogy a little too hard [TS]

00:34:39   because it isn't that great of one he [TS]

00:34:41   had [TS]

00:34:42   a handful of talking points and [TS]

00:34:43   unfortunately the interviewer had more [TS]

00:34:44   than a handful of questions so it was [TS]

00:34:46   just like after the first round was like [TS]

00:34:48   which one of my talking points am I [TS]

00:34:50   going to use a reply for this question [TS]

00:34:52   yeah it was the same thing just over and [TS]

00:34:54   over and over again which is really too [TS]

00:34:55   bad but in any case so apples of the [TS]

00:34:58   opinion this is a backdoor once we've [TS]

00:35:00   done this once we're going to be asked [TS]

00:35:02   to do it a thousand times we don't think [TS]

00:35:03   it's fair to do it even once we don't [TS]

00:35:05   think it's fair to us we don't think [TS]

00:35:07   it's fair to our customers were not into [TS]

00:35:09   it so the Apple is saying we're not [TS]

00:35:11   going to do it and more than that [TS]

00:35:14   Tim Cook said in this interview we are [TS]

00:35:17   willing to go all the way to the Supreme [TS]

00:35:18   Court fighting this because we think [TS]

00:35:20   that's what's right is that a pretty [TS]

00:35:22   reasonable summary of where we are today [TS]

00:35:24   pretty much I mean like there's a lot [TS]

00:35:27   more detail here that we could just just [TS]

00:35:29   by stating everything we have either [TS]

00:35:32   learned or that's been talked about over [TS]

00:35:33   the last week or so since is really [TS]

00:35:35   broke we could fill the whole hour and a [TS]

00:35:38   half with this and we shouldn't because [TS]

00:35:40   they'll take too long i think let's [TS]

00:35:42   assume that everyone who wants to know [TS]

00:35:43   more about this will will go and read up [TS]

00:35:45   on whatever is new and whatever has [TS]

00:35:47   happened so far and i think it's [TS]

00:35:49   probably safe for us to talk about it [TS]

00:35:50   now rather than just keep going over the [TS]

00:35:53   details of it right [TS]

00:35:54   good deal that's what we think it makes [TS]

00:35:58   me sad every part of this makes me sad [TS]

00:36:00   there there's so much of this that is [TS]

00:36:02   that is just like crappy politics [TS]

00:36:05   playing each other out and that mostly [TS]

00:36:08   on the government's honestly I mean [TS]

00:36:09   listeners of the show should know that [TS]

00:36:12   we do not we do not shy away from [TS]

00:36:15   criticizing Apple when it is warranted [TS]

00:36:18   we will call them out on things that we [TS]

00:36:20   think are BS or things that we think are [TS]

00:36:22   worse than they should be or not or are [TS]

00:36:24   just not you know not good enough in [TS]

00:36:26   this case though I think I i think apple [TS]

00:36:30   is mostly in the right and not a hundred [TS]

00:36:33   percent in the right because and and [TS]

00:36:36   again we should point also you know none [TS]

00:36:37   of us for lawyers so you know I [TS]

00:36:40   apologize to anybody listening to those [TS]

00:36:42   who knows more about the law that we do [TS]

00:36:44   who's screaming at whatever we don't [TS]

00:36:46   mention or get wrong but I that the one [TS]

00:36:50   thing that I think makes us a weaker [TS]

00:36:53   argument for them [TS]

00:36:54   is that it is technically possible for [TS]

00:36:57   them to do this and I wonder in the [TS]

00:37:00   future you know I I assume it's already [TS]

00:37:02   somebody's project Apple it wasn't [TS]

00:37:04   already i assume it is now somebody's [TS]

00:37:06   project project of Apple 22 head and [TS]

00:37:08   effort to actually make this impossible [TS]

00:37:10   to do in the future to remove their [TS]

00:37:12   technical ability to do anything like [TS]

00:37:14   this and there are a number of ways that [TS]

00:37:16   they could do that their number of [TS]

00:37:18   challenges to that but ultimately i [TS]

00:37:21   think i've mostly agree with apple that [TS]

00:37:24   they i stand with them that they that [TS]

00:37:27   they ideally shouldn't do this but it [TS]

00:37:30   does weaken their argument a little bit [TS]

00:37:32   that they can do it when you say can do [TS]

00:37:35   it what you mean is I don't let me put [TS]

00:37:37   words in my mouth and just make sure [TS]

00:37:38   we're on the same page [TS]

00:37:39   what you mean is they could write a [TS]

00:37:41   custom version of iOS that is [TS]

00:37:43   specifically for this one and only one [TS]

00:37:46   phone that would get the FBI what [TS]

00:37:48   they're asking for [TS]

00:37:49   I think now first of all it is [TS]

00:37:51   definitely worth reading this article [TS]

00:37:53   and please forgive me for the [TS]

00:37:55   presentation to get it wrong by Jonathan [TS]

00:37:57   Villar ski he died i don't i don't know [TS]

00:38:01   him but he appears to be somebody who [TS]

00:38:03   specializes in iOS forensics and like [TS]

00:38:06   testifying in court using iOS forensic [TS]

00:38:10   tools and creating forensic tools and [TS]

00:38:12   his his post here kind of explains that [TS]

00:38:14   the legal implications of everything [TS]

00:38:16   apple kind of have to do if they make [TS]

00:38:17   this instrument the FBI's demand that [TS]

00:38:19   they make [TS]

00:38:20   I don't think the FBI is really asking [TS]

00:38:22   for justice one phone to be decrypted [TS]

00:38:24   once and that's it i think they're [TS]

00:38:26   asking for the the continuous ability to [TS]

00:38:29   do this you know whenever it is [TS]

00:38:31   warranted or whenever there is a quarter [TS]

00:38:34   or want to do it so it and even if they [TS]

00:38:37   aren't asking for that now that's really [TS]

00:38:39   what they're asking for like you know [TS]

00:38:41   you like even if they're not asking for [TS]

00:38:42   that in in the legal text that is what [TS]

00:38:45   will happen here because this will set [TS]

00:38:46   precedent and then it'll be so much [TS]

00:38:48   easier next time someone asks for this [TS]

00:38:50   to be like oh well you did it for that [TS]

00:38:52   he this was important you know and and I [TS]

00:38:54   think to cover that pretty well honestly [TS]

00:38:56   I ultimately i think his interview on [TS]

00:38:58   ABC news i watched it right before the [TS]

00:38:59   show tonight i think is if you actually [TS]

00:39:01   was very good overall there there were [TS]

00:39:03   some parts that were a little bit [TS]

00:39:05   uncomfortable and cringe-worthy but [TS]

00:39:06   overall [TS]

00:39:07   I think it was very good and I think he [TS]

00:39:09   might very well and I think I think at a [TS]

00:39:12   time like this [TS]

00:39:14   this really shows this the strength of [TS]

00:39:17   tim cook and and how how we are lucky to [TS]

00:39:20   have to cook as the CEO of Apple during [TS]

00:39:22   times like this I could not agree more [TS]

00:39:25   this is exactly like where he shines [TS]

00:39:27   like he is he is clearly and he said he [TS]

00:39:29   shows in the past but you know this just [TS]

00:39:31   you know shows more now he's clearly [TS]

00:39:33   very principled and he won't be pushed [TS]

00:39:36   around you know if it goes against his [TS]

00:39:39   principles and and I think this is this [TS]

00:39:41   just shows I mean you're not going to [TS]

00:39:43   see any other company or any other [TS]

00:39:45   executive put up the fight that he's [TS]

00:39:47   going to put up on this it's simple as [TS]

00:39:48   that I mean like you're not going to see [TS]

00:39:49   anyone better than him fight this on [TS]

00:39:51   that side of it that you know it again i [TS]

00:39:54   could nitpick little few little things [TS]

00:39:55   he said but overall I thought it was [TS]

00:39:57   very good [TS]

00:39:58   so honestly I i really do think that [TS]

00:40:01   Apple is totally in the right to fight [TS]

00:40:04   this only again only with an asterisk [TS]

00:40:06   that it sure would be better if their [TS]

00:40:09   actual answer was we actually can't [TS]

00:40:12   technically do this it is impossible [TS]

00:40:13   because then it's then it's you can [TS]

00:40:16   argue whether that whether it should be [TS]

00:40:17   legal to make things like that but you [TS]

00:40:19   can't argue about this case anymore then [TS]

00:40:21   because everyone's playing on everyone's [TS]

00:40:23   emotions on this ever like and Tim do [TS]

00:40:24   this to with his responses and he kinda [TS]

00:40:26   had to but like you know like at the [TS]

00:40:28   interviewers like well think about the [TS]

00:40:30   victims and the FBI all about this is [TS]

00:40:32   this is that this isn't about our [TS]

00:40:33   ability to decrypt phones forever it's [TS]

00:40:34   about these 14 families victims and yes [TS]

00:40:36   it is it is about them and this horrible [TS]

00:40:39   event happened this people were killed [TS]

00:40:41   is that there is no there's nothing [TS]

00:40:43   about that that is anything but horrible [TS]

00:40:45   and a huge tragedy but the FBI is also [TS]

00:40:48   using this for their political gain [TS]

00:40:50   they knew that they set this case up as [TS]

00:40:52   a perfect fighting battleground to fight [TS]

00:40:55   this issue on that they believe they are [TS]

00:40:58   entitled in this is not just the FBI [TS]

00:41:00   this is all law enforcement and federal [TS]

00:41:03   intelligence in America they believe [TS]

00:41:05   they are entitled to access any [TS]

00:41:08   information and any possessions and any [TS]

00:41:11   people that they want to that they [TS]

00:41:13   believe they need to get their job in or [TS]

00:41:15   they just think might be a problem or [TS]

00:41:17   might be relevant to crimes that might [TS]

00:41:18   happen or might have [TS]

00:41:19   happened they believe they're entitled [TS]

00:41:21   to it all and they get it most of the [TS]

00:41:24   time you know like I'm a quick walk with [TS]

00:41:26   us look at everything we've learned from [TS]

00:41:28   Edward Snowden's revelations about the [TS]

00:41:29   NSA of the last couple years and and [TS]

00:41:31   everything that's spun out from that [TS]

00:41:32   it's very clear and a beat between that [TS]

00:41:35   and between things that happened at [TS]

00:41:38   lower levels of law enforcement whether [TS]

00:41:40   just you know murdering people getting [TS]

00:41:41   away with it it's very clear that long [TS]

00:41:45   look at the culture of law enforcement [TS]

00:41:46   in the whole country from from national [TS]

00:41:48   down to local is incredibly entitled and [TS]

00:41:52   and just kind of mad at they operate [TS]

00:41:55   like a lawless military dictatorship and [TS]

00:41:58   where they they are entitled to [TS]

00:42:01   everything they want in their minds and [TS]

00:42:05   they usually get it and even when it's [TS]

00:42:07   illegal [TS]

00:42:08   they do it anyway and they get away with [TS]

00:42:10   it most of the time if I'd all the time [TS]

00:42:12   they get they can with it almost all the [TS]

00:42:14   time so they they are above the law in [TS]

00:42:17   their minds they they believe they are [TS]

00:42:18   entitled to everything and they'll say [TS]

00:42:20   it's about national security but you [TS]

00:42:21   know that's what that's what kind of [TS]

00:42:22   like Angry macho neocon craziness in [TS]

00:42:26   reality like that this culture they have [TS]

00:42:29   is that they are entitled to everything [TS]

00:42:31   all the time and whatever they want [TS]

00:42:33   they're entitled to do their job you [TS]

00:42:35   know whatever they think they're [TS]

00:42:36   entitled to everything right and our [TS]

00:42:38   country so far in recent years if not [TS]

00:42:41   ever in recent years supports that we we [TS]

00:42:44   support bye-bye what judges say by what [TS]

00:42:47   the people do and don't get mad about by [TS]

00:42:49   how quickly we all forget things we the [TS]

00:42:53   people and the courts and all the way up [TS]

00:42:55   to the presidency everyone in this [TS]

00:42:58   system is complacent and permits this to [TS]

00:43:00   happen so the reality is it doesn't [TS]

00:43:02   really matter what's legal here [TS]

00:43:04   what matters is what we will tolerate [TS]

00:43:06   and they know that and so that's why [TS]

00:43:08   they're playing his emotional buttons [TS]

00:43:09   you know they're talking about the [TS]

00:43:10   victims and families and Tim's talking [TS]

00:43:12   about kids being you know if we know the [TS]

00:43:14   location your kids this is why this this [TS]

00:43:16   whole thing just makes me so sad it [TS]

00:43:18   really does because I how she's I mean [TS]

00:43:21   then let's just say that there's a read [TS]

00:43:24   that there are reasons I don't usually [TS]

00:43:25   talk about politics you know if you [TS]

00:43:27   think I'm like negative and bitter about [TS]

00:43:29   apple stuff this this is how i feel [TS]

00:43:31   about politics [TS]

00:43:32   I try to avoid as a topic for my own [TS]

00:43:34   happiness insanity [TS]

00:43:36   I just want to make one quick thought [TS]

00:43:38   and then I'd like to hear what John us [TS]

00:43:40   to say about this but as I was watching [TS]

00:43:42   this interview tonight which I think was [TS]

00:43:44   a little bit unfortunate because as you [TS]

00:43:46   had said or one of us said yeah it was [TS]

00:43:48   the same talking points from both sides [TS]

00:43:50   just repeated over and over i feel like [TS]

00:43:52   the entire interview could have been [TS]

00:43:53   like four and a half minutes long but [TS]

00:43:55   anyway I I caught myself sitting there [TS]

00:43:58   listening to this and I thought to [TS]

00:43:59   myself this is why we have Tim Cook you [TS]

00:44:02   know this is why Tim Cook is here is for [TS]

00:44:04   this very moment right now because I [TS]

00:44:07   don't doubt that maybe Steve Jobs [TS]

00:44:09   would've fought at the same way to ms [TS]

00:44:10   but I don't know if you would have done [TS]

00:44:12   as good a job at it and I am so [TS]

00:44:16   unbelievably proud of tim cook and all [TS]

00:44:18   of apple for standing up for what I [TS]

00:44:20   believe to be right and for doing the [TS]

00:44:22   right thing because this is not easy for [TS]

00:44:23   really either side or anyone involved [TS]

00:44:26   but particularly for apple and all the [TS]

00:44:30   credit in the world to Apple as you said [TS]

00:44:31   we have a tendency to to call it like we [TS]

00:44:33   see it and sometimes we see it to be not [TS]

00:44:35   so not so sunny but I I could not be [TS]

00:44:38   more proud of appleton cook than I am [TS]

00:44:39   right now [TS]

00:44:40   John what do you have to say about all [TS]

00:44:41   this I was thinking about how their job [TS]

00:44:44   to handle that interview like at the [TS]

00:44:45   very least he would have I mean Steve [TS]

00:44:47   Jobs has more sort of natural charisma [TS]

00:44:50   that then Tim Cook I I I feel like a lot [TS]

00:44:54   of things when you're watching it if you [TS]

00:44:55   are if you're supportive of apples [TS]

00:44:58   position in this the interviewer asks [TS]

00:45:01   the leading questions to try to you know [TS]

00:45:02   get that get him to say something and [TS]

00:45:05   Tim would just go back to his talking [TS]

00:45:07   points not falling for the trap jobs [TS]

00:45:09   would have said the things that were [TS]

00:45:10   thinking like the sort of you know come [TS]

00:45:13   back at him and you know take take more [TS]

00:45:15   digs at the government and law [TS]

00:45:16   enforcement Orton was always like you [TS]

00:45:18   know we respect lon far as we want to [TS]

00:45:19   work with them you want to work together [TS]

00:45:20   jobs would have been to let the fact [TS]

00:45:23   that he's pissed been you know be clear [TS]

00:45:26   that he's pissed analysis is going unit [TS]

00:45:28   to cook a little bit closer now it's a [TS]

00:45:30   question whether that would have been [TS]

00:45:31   actually better in terms of PR just you [TS]

00:45:33   know it would be more satisfying for [TS]

00:45:35   people who agree with them already would [TS]

00:45:37   have been any more convincing people who [TS]

00:45:38   don't in the court of public opinion I [TS]

00:45:40   don't know [TS]

00:45:40   so anyway that's that's a sideshow one [TS]

00:45:43   thing that Marco said that stuck out to [TS]

00:45:45   me was the idea that this feels worse [TS]

00:45:47   because Apple can technically do this [TS]

00:45:49   and again I don't want a lawyer I don't [TS]

00:45:52   know about the legal consequences but [TS]

00:45:53   when I think about it I think that is [TS]

00:45:55   not relevant at all because of legal the [TS]

00:45:59   question was is there's this two parts [TS]

00:46:01   this one is the but Marco alluded to [TS]

00:46:03   when he said well we better if they made [TS]

00:46:04   a system that Apple couldn't break into [TS]

00:46:06   prison they were just Apple to say well [TS]

00:46:08   you know we can't do anything oh well [TS]

00:46:10   sorry we can't help you like technically [TS]

00:46:12   we can help you there's nothing we could [TS]

00:46:13   do all the money and all the time in the [TS]

00:46:15   world wouldn't solve this for us that [TS]

00:46:18   immediately leads to okay we're just [TS]

00:46:20   going to outlaw cryptography which is [TS]

00:46:21   that it would be in terrible stupid rule [TS]

00:46:23   because you cannot math and you know so [TS]

00:46:26   whatever so that's one end of that but [TS]

00:46:29   that's that's what I think this case is [TS]

00:46:30   about when I think about it is just [TS]

00:46:33   because Apple can do it doesn't mean the [TS]

00:46:34   government can order them to do it like [TS]

00:46:37   the government can't make any one of its [TS]

00:46:41   citizens or corporations or entities or [TS]

00:46:43   whatever do it compel them to do [TS]

00:46:46   something just because they feel like it [TS]

00:46:48   right there has to be established law as [TS]

00:46:50   in when we issue you a search warrant [TS]

00:46:52   you have to let us search right that's [TS]

00:46:54   you know you can't just say you know it [TS]

00:46:56   would be nice family wrote you know a [TS]

00:46:58   custom operating system let's crack it [TS]

00:47:00   into this phone [TS]

00:47:01   yeah that would be nice wouldn't it but [TS]

00:47:02   do you the government have the power to [TS]

00:47:04   compel the corporation to do work for [TS]

00:47:06   you because you think it would be cool [TS]

00:47:07   like that that's why this is a legal [TS]

00:47:09   case like this will be decided in the [TS]

00:47:11   courts in with legislation and so on and [TS]

00:47:12   so forth but the idea like Marco said [TS]

00:47:15   that law enforcement you know they can [TS]

00:47:17   technically do this when we just ask [TS]

00:47:19   them to can we make them do that aren't [TS]

00:47:21   we like in charge here like and the [TS]

00:47:23   answer is no you can't really make them [TS]

00:47:25   and have apple doesn't want to they're [TS]

00:47:26   gonna challenge you and you're going to [TS]

00:47:27   go through the legal system and try to [TS]

00:47:28   figure out whether this is something you [TS]

00:47:29   can even ask them to do so i always [TS]

00:47:32   think it was as the notes here [TS]

00:47:34   cryptography vs conscription can you can [TS]

00:47:37   script a corporation to write software [TS]

00:47:39   on your behalf you are law enforcement [TS]

00:47:41   because you feel like it not based on [TS]

00:47:43   any existing law on the books or any [TS]

00:47:45   legal precedent over just because it's a [TS]

00:47:48   thing that's possible and one of the [TS]

00:47:49   things i think about that [TS]

00:47:50   this is the same thing at all but like [TS]

00:47:51   the idea that individuals and [TS]

00:47:54   corporations can have rights [TS]

00:47:56   the idea that the government can't [TS]

00:47:58   demand that you testify against yourself [TS]

00:48:02   you have the right to remain silent [TS]

00:48:04   they cannot compel you to speak against [TS]

00:48:06   yourself they may ask you you know where [TS]

00:48:08   you were you on the date such and such [TS]

00:48:09   and if they're accusing or something you [TS]

00:48:11   can just not answer them and they can't [TS]

00:48:13   compel you to answer because it is you [TS]

00:48:15   could answer all it's much worse because [TS]

00:48:17   you know you have a voice you could [TS]

00:48:19   answer them if you want to i want your [TS]

00:48:20   answer the question [TS]

00:48:21   they can't compel you to because its [TS]

00:48:22   your right to keep them and again this [TS]

00:48:24   may or may not be speech or whatever but [TS]

00:48:26   the whole idea that someone is capable [TS]

00:48:28   of doing something does not mean well if [TS]

00:48:29   you're capable of doing it [TS]

00:48:31   the government should be able to compel [TS]

00:48:32   you to do it that's it doesn't make any [TS]

00:48:33   sense so that has to be sorted out in [TS]

00:48:35   the law and then conceptually since [TS]

00:48:39   we're late to the story and everyone's [TS]

00:48:40   gone through all the details and we went [TS]

00:48:41   through a lot of them already anyway the [TS]

00:48:44   thing that really boggles my mind about [TS]

00:48:46   this conceptually is like the the short [TS]

00:48:50   view so many people have like people [TS]

00:48:51   think you know people who are on the [TS]

00:48:52   wrong side of this issue as in people [TS]

00:48:54   who don't agree with me right [TS]

00:48:55   I the incredible short view that like [TS]

00:48:58   just big picture like pull back from [TS]

00:49:00   this issue pull back from this one phone [TS]

00:49:02   pull back from details about like how [TS]

00:49:04   it's been since tailor-made to set a [TS]

00:49:06   legal precedent and now you know like [TS]

00:49:08   all the details of the other things want [TS]

00:49:11   to decode stuff on whether you can do it [TS]

00:49:12   with this one phone and think of the [TS]

00:49:13   children and the terrorists victims and [TS]

00:49:15   also the stuff in the details whether [TS]

00:49:17   there's anything on the phone and and [TS]

00:49:18   you know also by the way the code is [TS]

00:49:20   probably 11 or 11 or 12 34 they just try [TS]

00:49:23   this too close and will be unlocked but [TS]

00:49:24   even if they did they would quickly lock [TS]

00:49:26   it again because that's not what this is [TS]

00:49:27   about yeah i mean if also if you're [TS]

00:49:29   talking about like what's most likely [TS]

00:49:30   has nothing on the phone yeah it's me [TS]

00:49:31   way more likely that like that the [TS]

00:49:34   person's work phone that he they had [TS]

00:49:36   personal phones that they destroyed or [TS]

00:49:39   were described it [TS]

00:49:40   yeah it's very it's way more like the [TS]

00:49:41   work phone has nothing useful on it but [TS]

00:49:43   the FBI knows that and they that that's [TS]

00:49:46   why this isn't about that it's about you [TS]

00:49:48   know they they chose this case to [TS]

00:49:51   publicize they chose to publicize it not [TS]

00:49:53   and not do the negotiations and secret [TS]

00:49:56   where Apple Apple requested they chose [TS]

00:49:58   this because they knew that emotionally [TS]

00:50:02   is that like the the will of the people [TS]

00:50:04   would probably be on their side because [TS]

00:50:06   they can play the angles of terrorism [TS]

00:50:08   and victims and everything like all that [TS]

00:50:10   that's what i'm getting at the the will [TS]

00:50:12   of the people all right so i would be [TS]

00:50:14   speaking to the people at this point [TS]

00:50:15   that people who don't agree this is the [TS]

00:50:17   right thing to do just keep pulling back [TS]

00:50:20   from this case from this thing from [TS]

00:50:22   phones from encryption from all the [TS]

00:50:24   details or whatever and just think over [TS]

00:50:26   the last several decades or whatever the [TS]

00:50:29   general trend in American government has [TS]

00:50:31   been people being afraid and looking for [TS]

00:50:36   anyone who promises to make them safer [TS]

00:50:38   and giving up rights to get that imagine [TS]

00:50:41   safety from 9-11 on but even before that [TS]

00:50:43   the whole idea was it if you scare [TS]

00:50:45   enough people and say we can you know [TS]

00:50:48   someone is going to kill you and your [TS]

00:50:49   family unless we can tap all your [TS]

00:50:51   telephone calls and read all your mail [TS]

00:50:53   and all-you-can-eat like whatever it is [TS]

00:50:55   just just a general trend of you put on [TS]

00:50:57   a graph knew you could argue about [TS]

00:50:58   specifics or whatever but there's no [TS]

00:50:59   arguing that the general trend has been [TS]

00:51:01   away from civil liberties and towards [TS]

00:51:04   government has access to more and more [TS]

00:51:06   stuff and that has been motivated [TS]

00:51:08   generally by people being afraid either [TS]

00:51:10   people making them afraid or people who [TS]

00:51:12   generally being afraid of people take [TS]

00:51:13   advantage of that fear to say now we in [TS]

00:51:15   law enforcement can do our job better [TS]

00:51:17   because you're afraid you need to give [TS]

00:51:19   us these rights and time and again but [TS]

00:51:22   law enforcement government proven that [TS]

00:51:23   once they get the right they don't give [TS]

00:51:25   him back the using the ways that they [TS]

00:51:26   didn't say that they said they weren't [TS]

00:51:28   going to use them the abuse them [TS]

00:51:30   there's no repercussions for that and [TS]

00:51:32   it's a ratcheting mechanism but never [TS]

00:51:33   slide the other direction only goes to [TS]

00:51:35   more and more and technology is enabling [TS]

00:51:36   to do this now every individual point [TS]

00:51:39   you can argue with like oh do I agree [TS]

00:51:40   about this and what about phone [TS]

00:51:42   wiretapping what about Snowden or [TS]

00:51:43   whatever you can argue every individual [TS]

00:51:45   point when you put it on a big graph [TS]

00:51:46   this is a massive trend a massive [TS]

00:51:48   long-term trend away from civil [TS]

00:51:50   liberties and towards a loss of [TS]

00:51:53   individual rights right [TS]

00:51:54   specifically when it comes to law [TS]

00:51:56   enforcement surveillance and privacy and [TS]

00:51:59   so even in this individual case you just [TS]

00:52:02   have to like you have to color all of [TS]

00:52:03   your thinking to say is should we just [TS]

00:52:06   continue to play out this thing on these [TS]

00:52:08   individual battles slowly ratcheting our [TS]

00:52:10   way up [TS]

00:52:11   how does this all end like such a long [TS]

00:52:13   slide you have to at some point say [TS]

00:52:15   there's a limit you just can't keep [TS]

00:52:17   asking for more and more and more and [TS]

00:52:19   generations of people living and dying [TS]

00:52:21   and just getting used to what the [TS]

00:52:22   government does until like you just [TS]

00:52:24   can't keep going in that direction [TS]

00:52:25   forever it has to be a pendulum it has [TS]

00:52:27   to be a cycle there has to be a swing [TS]

00:52:29   and at some point you have to start [TS]

00:52:31   swinging in the other direction some [TS]

00:52:32   point the people you know your fear of [TS]

00:52:35   being killed by terrorists has to be [TS]

00:52:36   trumped by the granted much more [TS]

00:52:39   intellectual ideas that are you know the [TS]

00:52:41   country supposedly founded on of you [TS]

00:52:43   know some amount of individual liberty [TS]

00:52:45   and writes I guess that swing back and [TS]

00:52:47   all the other direction like we have [TS]

00:52:49   freedom of speech but we also have you [TS]

00:52:51   know slander laws and you know can't [TS]

00:52:54   yell fire in a crowded theater like it [TS]

00:52:55   just like the basics of civics [TS]

00:52:57   one-on-one that there are extremes and [TS]

00:52:59   we are headed we've been headed in the [TS]

00:53:01   other direction for so long that I just [TS]

00:53:03   think that every problem that touches on [TS]

00:53:04   this you at all has to be viewed in the [TS]

00:53:06   context of the humongous long clear [TS]

00:53:09   unidirectional slide that we've been in [TS]

00:53:11   for so long and so anybody who's for [TS]

00:53:13   this I have to say don't you know don't [TS]

00:53:16   think of this individual issue [TS]

00:53:17   do you agree that this we've been going [TS]

00:53:19   this direction for far too long at what [TS]

00:53:21   point do we need to turn around at what [TS]

00:53:22   point do we need to start swinging the [TS]

00:53:24   other direction [TS]

00:53:25   I think personally we're way past that [TS]

00:53:27   point but even if you don't think we're [TS]

00:53:28   past that point if you're not thinking [TS]

00:53:29   about that point it's just every time [TS]

00:53:31   something comes up that you're afraid of [TS]

00:53:33   or that you need your you know support [TS]

00:53:35   the troops law enforcement is always [TS]

00:53:36   right the the government is our friend [TS]

00:53:38   of all blah [TS]

00:53:39   if every single time something comes up [TS]

00:53:40   you never even occurred to you to look [TS]

00:53:42   at where we're going and how we have to [TS]

00:53:43   swing in the direction and i'm far from [TS]

00:53:45   you know a libertarian individual rights [TS]

00:53:49   not job that I personally i'm far from [TS]

00:53:50   now but I'm just saying like no matter [TS]

00:53:52   where you are if you never if you never [TS]

00:53:54   consider it like this movement this [TS]

00:53:56   graph the suspect then it will never [TS]

00:53:58   occur to adjust it and there's no like [TS]

00:54:00   oh it will be too late like there is no [TS]

00:54:01   too late [TS]

00:54:02   it'll just be the new normal the normal [TS]

00:54:03   the new normal the only thing we'll have [TS]

00:54:05   to compare self-worth is the rest of the [TS]

00:54:07   world that is hopefully slightly more [TS]

00:54:08   saying in these matters lo the UK shows [TS]

00:54:10   maybe not because they've got surround [TS]

00:54:11   everywhere to do things need to [TS]

00:54:14   eventually swing back in the other [TS]

00:54:16   direction and it just seems like a [TS]

00:54:18   anybody who is at this point against [TS]

00:54:20   this thing is showing that they're [TS]

00:54:22   thinking entirely with their their heart [TS]

00:54:25   and their fear and all those things you [TS]

00:54:27   know that do them credit in [TS]

00:54:29   enrolled but when it comes to [TS]

00:54:30   establishing legal precedence and giving [TS]

00:54:32   power to the government to you know [TS]

00:54:34   rights of privacy and against all these [TS]

00:54:36   details like you don't know these [TS]

00:54:37   details about encryption and all like [TS]

00:54:39   it's too esoteric it's too that's why [TS]

00:54:41   it's the perfect case for the [TS]

00:54:42   government's to Tim Cook can't make the [TS]

00:54:43   real case because it's too detailed your [TS]

00:54:45   eyes glaze over you just like but [TS]

00:54:46   terrorists bad give the government what [TS]

00:54:48   they want right that is exactly the same [TS]

00:54:50   thing that's got us do all the crazy [TS]

00:54:52   things you've been doing some line 11 [TS]

00:54:53   and I just feel he can continue to go in [TS]

00:54:55   that direction forever [TS]

00:54:56   everybody should at the very least every [TS]

00:54:59   time they make any argument that they [TS]

00:55:01   should have to explain why not only is [TS]

00:55:03   this the right thing to do in this case [TS]

00:55:04   but i believe that is essential for us [TS]

00:55:07   to ratchet this thing up one more notch [TS]

00:55:08   you know for for the for invading our [TS]

00:55:11   privacy and forgiving law enforcement [TS]

00:55:13   government power and I that is essential [TS]

00:55:14   in this because if anyone says is just [TS]

00:55:16   this one time or just as one thing or [TS]

00:55:18   whatever it's like they have they [TS]

00:55:19   haven't looked at history recent history [TS]

00:55:21   or ancient history or any kind of [TS]

00:55:22   history is not the way it works when [TS]

00:55:24   someone gets power if they don't give it [TS]

00:55:26   up again unless you take it from them [TS]

00:55:27   yeah but honestly I i totally agree [TS]

00:55:31   first of all I did everything you said [TS]

00:55:32   is gold but looking at history and and [TS]

00:55:37   looking at the present in the direction [TS]

00:55:41   and everything I don't think I see a lot [TS]

00:55:43   of evidence that it ever really does [TS]

00:55:45   swing back in the direction [TS]

00:55:47   well you know America itself was [TS]

00:55:48   swinging the other direction that is it [TS]

00:55:50   say there wasn't more authoritarian [TS]

00:55:52   government control into a king then [TS]

00:55:54   there was under the market is huge swing [TS]

00:55:56   in the other direction are these does go [TS]

00:55:57   back and forth in cycles like you just [TS]

00:55:58   study history there are times where the [TS]

00:56:01   government has more power over its [TS]

00:56:02   citizenry and then less power and then [TS]

00:56:04   more than less and you know it's clear [TS]

00:56:07   which direction we're going in now and [TS]

00:56:08   it's clear why in America anyway there's [TS]

00:56:11   no reason we can't reverse that trend [TS]

00:56:13   line you would think like oh well you [TS]

00:56:15   know people like being under the King [TS]

00:56:17   because it provides a measure of safety [TS]

00:56:19   and a fat King like the you know the [TS]

00:56:22   Mongol hordes are coming kill them [TS]

00:56:23   wherever there's always some reason to [TS]

00:56:24   be like yeah it's terrible but it's [TS]

00:56:26   better than the alternative right but [TS]

00:56:28   some people like you know if the King [TS]

00:56:31   were chopping his head off and we're [TS]

00:56:32   going to have our own system of [TS]

00:56:33   government or whatever like we're [TS]

00:56:35   throwing his tea overboard like those [TS]

00:56:37   are big messy calamities but there are [TS]

00:56:40   small victories as well I mean [TS]

00:56:42   look at the Constitution has been [TS]

00:56:43   amended many times to give people more [TS]

00:56:46   rights and and it take rights away from [TS]

00:56:48   the government say you know previously [TS]

00:56:50   you could own people [TS]

00:56:52   now we think that's not such a great [TS]

00:56:53   idea so maybe write that into the [TS]

00:56:54   Constitution or the effort example you [TS]

00:56:57   can't drink alcohol anymore no nevermind [TS]

00:56:59   you can you know [TS]

00:57:00   previously we had the right to stop you [TS]

00:57:02   from bringing alcohol then later we said [TS]

00:57:03   no we probably shouldn't have that right [TS]

00:57:05   yeah but on the other side of it like [TS]

00:57:08   you like maybe I mean first of all you [TS]

00:57:10   know there's different there's different [TS]

00:57:11   versions of like a government that has [TS]

00:57:14   too much power that's too oppressive [TS]

00:57:16   that people revolt against or overthrow [TS]

00:57:19   you know like it a grant this is way out [TS]

00:57:22   of our usual comfort zone so please [TS]

00:57:24   forgive me for anything i'm picturing [TS]

00:57:25   here but you know like if you think [TS]

00:57:28   about like the way that we are being [TS]

00:57:29   oppressed by the surveillance and police [TS]

00:57:32   states here it's in a way that most [TS]

00:57:35   people don't care about because they [TS]

00:57:38   don't think it affects them and so it's [TS]

00:57:41   hardly if the government is taxing the [TS]

00:57:44   crap out of you it you know like or [TS]

00:57:47   taking your land stuff like that like [TS]

00:57:49   you know if that's it that's happened to [TS]

00:57:51   a whole bunch of people that's enough to [TS]

00:57:53   make people revolt in most cases [TS]

00:57:55   historically but if they're just like [TS]

00:57:58   you know keeping records of your text [TS]

00:58:00   messages and in these weird secret [TS]

00:58:02   things that no one really thinks about [TS]

00:58:04   her knows about and even were told they [TS]

00:58:06   exist everyone look at well it doesn't [TS]

00:58:08   matter [TS]

00:58:08   and then we offer getting go watch the [TS]

00:58:10   bachelor like I feel like that the ways [TS]

00:58:13   in which things are going so badly that [TS]

00:58:15   we're talking about here are ways that [TS]

00:58:17   people don't care about enough but they [TS]

00:58:20   care about them when there are [TS]

00:58:20   consequences though [TS]

00:58:22   well but but for most people there are [TS]

00:58:23   no consequences that they see it doesn't [TS]

00:58:26   matter if they're not it does not [TS]

00:58:27   consequences for most people for [TS]

00:58:29   anything it just matters that there are [TS]

00:58:30   consequences for somebody you just need [TS]

00:58:32   you just need basically you need an [TS]

00:58:35   attractive young person to encounter a [TS]

00:58:38   problem you know like that like it the [TS]

00:58:41   same perfect storm that makes these [TS]

00:58:42   things a great case of the FBI this is [TS]

00:58:44   the opposite to write and and here's the [TS]

00:58:47   thing that makes me optimistic about it [TS]

00:58:48   because in general [TS]

00:58:50   despite insane jerem answering and all [TS]

00:58:52   sorts of other things we still have a [TS]

00:58:55   system [TS]

00:58:55   our people vote and so if people get [TS]

00:58:58   angry enough the people who are in power [TS]

00:59:00   get voted out and do people get voted in [TS]

00:59:02   so it's always up to someone else to [TS]

00:59:05   find a way to exploit the public to get [TS]

00:59:06   them elected and people are always [TS]

00:59:08   motivated to do that and they're smart [TS]

00:59:10   people trying to get them like that [TS]

00:59:12   instead of somebody else and so there [TS]

00:59:14   will always be at least some way for us [TS]

00:59:15   to effect change but also liked but over [TS]

00:59:18   time you know as as as technology has [TS]

00:59:21   progressed as the world has gotten more [TS]

00:59:22   you know just more kind of globalized [TS]

00:59:26   and you know as as like everything [TS]

00:59:29   including manipulation and [TS]

00:59:32   centralization of power as progressed [TS]

00:59:34   what if what if depression by my [TS]

00:59:37   government and by the by police [TS]

00:59:39   apparatus apparatus [TS]

00:59:41   what if this has actually gotten so good [TS]

00:59:43   that now there's they're so good and [TS]

00:59:46   things are so big and there's so much [TS]

00:59:49   power cut concentrated in so few hands [TS]

00:59:51   these days and the science of [TS]

00:59:54   manipulating people and manipulating the [TS]

00:59:56   media and controlling the messaging of [TS]

00:59:59   everything [TS]

00:59:59   everything [TS]

01:00:00   that has gotten so advanced we have [TS]

01:00:01   gotten so good at it or you know like [TS]

01:00:05   that like a concentrated power basically [TS]

01:00:07   and keeping those people in power that [TS]

01:00:09   that kind of overthrow or change just [TS]

01:00:13   doesn't happen anymore you like in in [TS]

01:00:15   ways like certain forms of warfare [TS]

01:00:16   basically don't happen anymore because [TS]

01:00:19   we as a society have found more [TS]

01:00:21   effective things you know it in to cover [TS]

01:00:23   those those needs or wants a certain [TS]

01:00:26   types of media don't exist anymore [TS]

01:00:27   certain types of of legal issues are [TS]

01:00:30   just not debated anymore certain types [TS]

01:00:32   of freedoms are just assumed that we [TS]

01:00:34   will either always have one that we will [TS]

01:00:35   never have it seems like we've moved [TS]

01:00:37   forward move past many things and we've [TS]

01:00:39   advanced so much so I feel like the the [TS]

01:00:41   the police states are so in control now [TS]

01:00:44   of almost every fertile country and the [TS]

01:00:48   guts of a combination of of the the [TS]

01:00:50   establishment of control here along with [TS]

01:00:52   these issues usually not bothering most [TS]

01:00:56   everyday people in ways that they can [TS]

01:00:58   notice or get mad about [TS]

01:01:00   plus the ability for for the people who [TS]

01:01:03   want to keep things this way to very [TS]

01:01:05   effectively control the media narrative [TS]

01:01:08   and I have media so centralized that's [TS]

01:01:09   even possible [TS]

01:01:10   I feel like the conditions are such now [TS]

01:01:13   that the fact that a significant [TS]

01:01:16   revolution can't really happen anymore [TS]

01:01:18   does that make sense is am I just crazy [TS]

01:01:20   your phone into the Illuminati trap [TS]

01:01:22   where you imagine that it's possible for [TS]

01:01:24   conspiracy of people to actually keep [TS]

01:01:25   their stuff together and actually be [TS]

01:01:28   all-powerful and controlling bottom line [TS]

01:01:31   people are people [TS]

01:01:32   that's what undoes all these things like [TS]

01:01:33   the way if any grand conspiracy theory [TS]

01:01:35   requires people to be so much more [TS]

01:01:36   confident than anyone else so much more [TS]

01:01:38   intelligent and capable and organized [TS]

01:01:41   and able to keep secrets and able to [TS]

01:01:44   read like that any conspiracy theory [TS]

01:01:47   realizing that is obviously false [TS]

01:01:49   because that just not happen there are [TS]

01:01:50   no better set of people better able to [TS]

01:01:52   control things and if the ends are [TS]

01:01:53   saying before their maybe individual [TS]

01:01:55   people who are good at that but there is [TS]

01:01:57   opposition to each other and also all of [TS]

01:01:58   them are just plain old people but their [TS]

01:02:00   own stupid four balls and desires and [TS]

01:02:02   things that don't make any sense and [TS]

01:02:04   that general the general chaos of people [TS]

01:02:06   being people means that it in the end [TS]

01:02:10   but not saying it all works itself out [TS]

01:02:11   but like i said as long as [TS]

01:02:13   you're as long as you're not in the [TS]

01:02:14   military dictatorship in which you have [TS]

01:02:16   to have a bloody revolution to change [TS]

01:02:18   things as long as we still have some way [TS]

01:02:20   to change things about taking up arms [TS]

01:02:23   which at this point would be a non [TS]

01:02:25   workable anyway to get seriously the [TS]

01:02:28   entire United States population versus [TS]

01:02:30   the entire US Army if you set up that [TS]

01:02:32   battle assuming both sides were highly [TS]

01:02:34   motivated against it which makes no [TS]

01:02:36   sense because the Army is made up of the [TS]

01:02:37   children of the citizenry or whatever [TS]

01:02:39   anyway if you can imagine that scenario [TS]

01:02:40   we lose every time [TS]

01:02:41   anyway doesn't matter as long as voting [TS]

01:02:45   still hat functions in some tiny way [TS]

01:02:47   which is getting tinier all-time granted [TS]

01:02:49   but as long as it still works in some [TS]

01:02:50   way and as long as people are still [TS]

01:02:52   stupid people with their own weird [TS]

01:02:54   desires and motivations that sort of [TS]

01:02:57   like a dystopian sci-fi narrative where [TS]

01:03:02   the diffuser rule the Illuminati rule in [TS]

01:03:06   the Morlocks are just like lulled into a [TS]

01:03:09   sense of and like in many ways idiocracy [TS]

01:03:11   is more that much more plausible [TS]

01:03:14   scenario in which everybody is a bunch [TS]

01:03:15   of dunces cap but the idea that well I [TS]

01:03:18   feel like the reason the Aqua sea [TS]

01:03:19   resonates so much and we and we use it [TS]

01:03:22   as as such a such an offer metaphor in [TS]

01:03:24   these circles it is because that it like [TS]

01:03:27   the way that I'm picturing there being a [TS]

01:03:30   big problem for any kind of meaningful [TS]

01:03:31   progress on these fronts is not the [TS]

01:03:35   Illuminati situation it's not a big [TS]

01:03:37   conspiracy theory if anything what we've [TS]

01:03:39   seen over the last you know 10 20 years [TS]

01:03:42   or whatever probably longer what we've [TS]

01:03:44   seen is that the government or the those [TS]

01:03:48   in power can do audacious things [TS]

01:03:51   possibly even things that are illegal [TS]

01:03:52   and they can just do them right in the [TS]

01:03:55   open and if they message it correctly [TS]

01:03:57   which they found more and more effective [TS]

01:03:59   ways to do overtime as long as this [TS]

01:04:01   message directly publicly they can get [TS]

01:04:04   away with it almost every time but there [TS]

01:04:06   are people there are people who are [TS]

01:04:07   motivated to get them out of office [TS]

01:04:08   other people want those jobs and they [TS]

01:04:10   have the same tools and knowledge their [TS]

01:04:11   disposal to battle them if someone does [TS]

01:04:13   something like that it guaranteed when [TS]

01:04:15   they get on there and come up for [TS]

01:04:16   election and someone wants to run [TS]

01:04:17   against them they're gonna bring up the [TS]

01:04:18   thing and they're gonna bring it up in [TS]

01:04:19   the unfavorable angle using all the [TS]

01:04:21   tricks of the trade and emotional [TS]

01:04:22   appeals like it that it that I think [TS]

01:04:25   elections again not the cure for this [TS]

01:04:27   elections are the the hedge against this [TS]

01:04:28   because all the tools they have to get [TS]

01:04:30   away with stuff people who want them out [TS]

01:04:32   of office have you know to run against [TS]

01:04:34   them to do the exact same thing but [TS]

01:04:36   that's also based on a number of big [TS]

01:04:38   assumptions of a that the population [TS]

01:04:41   cares what people say independent [TS]

01:04:43   election debates and everything but you [TS]

01:04:45   have to have to learn how to make them [TS]

01:04:46   care that's how you get elected you have [TS]

01:04:47   the other do all the tricks in the book [TS]

01:04:49   to get people i mean look at Donald [TS]

01:04:50   Trump he's using all the tricks and the [TS]

01:04:52   girls to get to get you know how to win [TS]

01:04:53   the Republican nomination he's an idiot [TS]

01:04:55   right how you doing that good season [TS]

01:04:57   knows how to manipulate and play the [TS]

01:04:58   game right now that I'm saying he's the [TS]

01:05:00   greatest person but like if Donald Trump [TS]

01:05:01   can you know get this close to being [TS]

01:05:04   president shows that anybody can like if [TS]

01:05:07   you don't really like it's that the [TS]

01:05:09   tools are there for everybody [TS]

01:05:11   everyone has access to what everyone [TS]

01:05:13   could be on a reality show where they [TS]

01:05:14   say you're fired everybody can put their [TS]

01:05:15   face on it like all the tools are there [TS]

01:05:18   for everybody and people are constantly [TS]

01:05:19   hungry to kick out the old guys and [TS]

01:05:22   bring in the new guys and I know it's [TS]

01:05:23   possible because elections happen and if [TS]

01:05:25   they can commit you to do it for them [TS]

01:05:26   then they get the job and then they can [TS]

01:05:28   be corrupted have power and do stuff [TS]

01:05:30   whatever you know so like a given that [TS]

01:05:32   sci-fi stories it's always like well or [TS]

01:05:35   in military dictatorship sore in places [TS]

01:05:36   like North Korea where the people have [TS]

01:05:38   no power and literally sometimes have no [TS]

01:05:40   food right like it it's much harder but [TS]

01:05:43   in a first world country with us even [TS]

01:05:46   remotely functioning government where [TS]

01:05:49   people get to vote you there is always [TS]

01:05:52   hope [TS]

01:05:52   and even if it's a hope of like get the [TS]

01:05:54   current terrible people out and get a [TS]

01:05:56   different even more terrible but [TS]

01:05:57   terrible in a different way person in [TS]

01:05:59   that still hope it's not as if like it's [TS]

01:06:02   going to be you know a military [TS]

01:06:04   dictatorship where where the the supreme [TS]

01:06:07   ruler passes it on to his son and so on [TS]

01:06:08   and so forth in the only way you get out [TS]

01:06:10   of it is with a bloody revolution or [TS]

01:06:11   something so I'm not as pessimistic as [TS]

01:06:14   you are about it because i think most of [TS]

01:06:15   the most of the the the scenarios where [TS]

01:06:19   it's like intractable and we're never [TS]

01:06:21   going to escape from it just just don't [TS]

01:06:22   work out a reality because people [TS]

01:06:24   because people just people i guess that [TS]

01:06:25   i hope you're right i'm done where you [TS]

01:06:29   mean you usually are so I i have some [TS]

01:06:32   confidence here you're generally right i [TS]

01:06:33   mean it is not to say that like you [TS]

01:06:35   can't be disastrous because i think one [TS]

01:06:36   of them one of the sci-fi stories in [TS]

01:06:38   this scenario [TS]

01:06:39   that is plausible is like the one where [TS]

01:06:40   you get the crazy person like Trump or [TS]

01:06:42   something in there for like that was it [TS]

01:06:45   firestarter anyway they want to spoil [TS]

01:06:47   the bunch of people someone like Trump [TS]

01:06:49   comes in and then like a nuke somebody [TS]

01:06:51   and we all die like that's always a [TS]

01:06:52   possibility but I feel like I lived [TS]

01:06:54   through that as a child of the 80s and [TS]

01:06:55   now it's like it's all hat now the whole [TS]

01:06:58   world could blow up at any second [TS]

01:06:59   because of a cowboy in the White House [TS]

01:07:01   that's the possibility still out there [TS]

01:07:02   so don't say that that's not gonna [TS]

01:07:04   happen because it could but that again [TS]

01:07:06   that could have happened back in the old [TS]

01:07:08   the olden days of the eighties just as [TS]

01:07:09   much as it can happen with President [TS]

01:07:10   Trump and terrorists new things or [TS]

01:07:13   whatever terrors nucleons by the way is [TS]

01:07:14   exactly why they want to be able to [TS]

01:07:15   wonder every single thing you do don't [TS]

01:07:16   you afraid of terrorists new can you [TS]

01:07:18   please let me have access to everything [TS]

01:07:19   in your entire life and you have no [TS]

01:07:20   rights and we can hold you to that trial [TS]

01:07:22   forever [TS]

01:07:24   Wow alright let's talk about something [TS]

01:07:27   that's happy and awesome and then I have [TS]

01:07:29   a question for you guys are final [TS]

01:07:31   sponsor this week is Harry's go to [TS]

01:07:33   Harry's calm and use promo code ATP to [TS]

01:07:35   save five dollars off your first [TS]

01:07:36   purchase Harry's offers high-quality [TS]

01:07:38   razors and blades for a fraction of the [TS]

01:07:40   price of the big razor brands they make [TS]

01:07:42   their own blade from our own factory and [TS]

01:07:44   old blade factory in Germany they liked [TS]

01:07:45   it so much they bought it and the prices [TS]

01:07:48   on these you cannot beat an 8-pack of [TS]

01:07:51   blades just fifteen bucks a 16 package [TS]

01:07:54   just 25 bucks you compare that to any [TS]

01:07:57   comparable you find the drugstore and [TS]

01:07:59   it's half the price or less and I've [TS]

01:08:01   used these I'd say they're very [TS]

01:08:03   competitive in the market to me this is [TS]

01:08:04   the best burger in the shaping business [TS]

01:08:05   bar not now Harry's also has incredibly [TS]

01:08:08   tasteful designs their handles are nice [TS]

01:08:11   the heavy their way they're kind of like [TS]

01:08:12   mad men style but you know modern like a [TS]

01:08:15   modern throwback beautiful designs [TS]

01:08:17   beautiful handles they have great shave [TS]

01:08:19   cream great gel if you want that instead [TS]

01:08:20   they have a whole line of their face [TS]

01:08:22   wash they have aftershave they have all [TS]

01:08:24   those great stuff but really to me it's [TS]

01:08:26   all about the blades and that those [TS]

01:08:28   really nice handles they have this is [TS]

01:08:30   you know it is a great website you go [TS]

01:08:32   online you order it delivered right to [TS]

01:08:33   your door there's no shopping and you [TS]

01:08:35   know crazy drug stores getting in the [TS]

01:08:37   shoplifting cases anything like that [TS]

01:08:38   it's just really nice products delivered [TS]

01:08:41   right to your door check it out today go [TS]

01:08:44   to Harry's dot-com now you can get a [TS]

01:08:46   starter set that includes a handle three [TS]

01:08:48   blades and shaving cream for just [TS]

01:08:50   fifteen dollars that's it [TS]

01:08:52   and with three blades 15 bucks you [TS]

01:08:54   cannot beat that that's including [TS]

01:08:55   shipping right to your door and if you [TS]

01:08:57   use promo code ATP you save five dollars [TS]

01:09:00   off your first purchase so go to Harry's [TS]

01:09:02   calm right now get that sort of set 15 [TS]

01:09:05   bucks you procreate epsa five dollars [TS]

01:09:07   off your first purchase thank you very [TS]

01:09:08   much too Harry sponsor show real-time [TS]

01:09:11   follow-up I'm gonna blame this on the [TS]

01:09:12   cold which by the way i have have you [TS]

01:09:14   heard have a cult difficult not fire [TS]

01:09:17   starter [TS]

01:09:17   obviously the dead zone sorry brain fart [TS]

01:09:21   there and you know as Donald Trump would [TS]

01:09:23   say he could shield himself from an [TS]

01:09:25   assassin by holding a young child in [TS]

01:09:26   front of them still win the nomination [TS]

01:09:28   alright no politics no my good now said [TS]

01:09:31   yes seriously is there any better you [TS]

01:09:34   talk about tonight well i have a [TS]

01:09:35   question thats thats related but maybe [TS]

01:09:38   less sad hopefully I said let's assume [TS]

01:09:41   that starts and actually let's assume [TS]

01:09:44   that uh that Apple is told you have to [TS]

01:09:48   do this and you know the the the world [TS]

01:09:51   is upset we are upset actually haven't [TS]

01:09:53   talked that much about how this relates [TS]

01:09:55   the rest of the world but anyway [TS]

01:09:56   everyone's upset apples told they have [TS]

01:09:59   to do this and apple says to its [TS]

01:10:01   engineers you have to do this now what [TS]

01:10:05   happens if all the engineers at work an [TS]

01:10:07   apple that have any sort of knowledge as [TS]

01:10:09   to how to make this happen just say no [TS]

01:10:11   I'll get fired because this [TS]

01:10:14   insubordination to think I've been one [TS]

01:10:16   would assume i agree civil disobedience [TS]

01:10:18   civil disobedience because basically [TS]

01:10:20   like if you refuse to do what the law [TS]

01:10:22   says you have to do that you accept the [TS]

01:10:24   consequences of it which is either get [TS]

01:10:26   fired to go to jail like I mean it like [TS]

01:10:28   basically of apples CEOs refused to [TS]

01:10:31   comply with the thing there in contempt [TS]

01:10:32   of court or whatever you know thing and [TS]

01:10:34   they asked if the people in charge of [TS]

01:10:36   the company [TS]

01:10:36   I cooperate and tell her subordinates to [TS]

01:10:39   do in this importance don't then the [TS]

01:10:41   subordinates to get fired for [TS]

01:10:42   insubordination [TS]

01:10:43   it's not as if there's some scenario [TS]

01:10:45   where that we can all sit on their hands [TS]

01:10:46   and say well you told us to do it and I [TS]

01:10:48   told these guys do but they won't oh [TS]

01:10:49   well like court orders a court order and [TS]

01:10:52   there's consequences for whoever it is [TS]

01:10:54   that decides to divide it and if they [TS]

01:10:56   could feel this would be answers is a [TS]

01:10:58   way to protest unjust laws but part of [TS]

01:11:00   civil disobedience is that you accept [TS]

01:11:02   the punishment associated with [TS]

01:11:05   disobeying the law and that's [TS]

01:11:06   part of civil disobedience oh yes that [TS]

01:11:07   could happen but i really doubt it would [TS]

01:11:09   I mean yeah eventually like you know if [TS]

01:11:12   if Tim Cook was thrown in jail over not [TS]

01:11:14   obeying a final court order then [TS]

01:11:17   somebody else would replace them because [TS]

01:11:19   the company have to continue operating [TS]

01:11:20   somehow and then that person would [TS]

01:11:23   authorize it or they go to jail the next [TS]

01:11:25   person would like that you know it's [TS]

01:11:26   like eventually you'd find somebody who [TS]

01:11:28   would do it so that that's not really a [TS]

01:11:31   way out and really it really speaking [TS]

01:11:33   they would just do it if they were [TS]

01:11:34   ordered to but then simultaneously what [TS]

01:11:35   they would be doing is like Marcus said [TS]

01:11:37   before up there already obviously you [TS]

01:11:38   know working on an operating system that [TS]

01:11:40   they themselves can hack into and that [TS]

01:11:42   just leads to the next legal fight which [TS]

01:11:43   is should it be legal to make this [TS]

01:11:45   incision another incredibly stupid legal [TS]

01:11:47   fight that like at a certain point law [TS]

01:11:49   enforcement becomes just so misguided [TS]

01:11:51   and what they want like in some respects [TS]

01:11:53   I'd say they're already past that point [TS]

01:11:54   I know but like when the system is [TS]

01:11:56   working the way you expected to like law [TS]

01:11:57   enforcement is highly motivated to to [TS]

01:11:59   get all the powers they possibly can to [TS]

01:12:01   to enforce the law and solve crimes [TS]

01:12:04   right it's checks and balances that [TS]

01:12:06   there has to be some opposing force the [TS]

01:12:08   other sizes yeah law enforcement you may [TS]

01:12:09   want this but civil rights dictate XYZ [TS]

01:12:12   like and when the checks and balances [TS]

01:12:13   get out of balance then we know that's [TS]

01:12:15   why you get this long-term trend and [TS]

01:12:16   what didn't take much to unbalance it [TS]

01:12:18   just giant terrorist attacks on american [TS]

01:12:20   soil and then it gets all unbalanced [TS]

01:12:21   right can also make the minor correction [TS]

01:12:23   that law enforcement incentive is not to [TS]

01:12:25   solve crimes it's too close cases not [TS]

01:12:28   necessarily solving them just to close [TS]

01:12:30   the case solving them suggests they're [TS]

01:12:33   doing it correctly in the grand scheme [TS]

01:12:34   of things again people being people the [TS]

01:12:36   idea is just to obtain power but [TS]

01:12:38   whenever is that not get into and into [TS]

01:12:40   motivations and a particular [TS]

01:12:42   disincentives but anyway when things are [TS]

01:12:44   working what like what I'm getting at is [TS]

01:12:45   that it's not necessarily a bad thing to [TS]

01:12:47   have two parts of your system of [TS]

01:12:49   government that are in opposition to [TS]

01:12:51   each other and both highly motivated [TS]

01:12:53   doing everything they can [TS]

01:12:55   it's a problem with one side keeps [TS]

01:12:56   winning four decades on end because then [TS]

01:12:58   you get you know they're not balancing [TS]

01:13:00   each other anymore like there is no more [TS]

01:13:01   balanced right but in this case in the [TS]

01:13:03   crypto thing like say apples order to do [TS]

01:13:06   it they do it two years later they come [TS]

01:13:08   with new version of iOS they can't even [TS]

01:13:09   crack into eventually all the old iOS [TS]

01:13:11   devices we go out of you so no criminals [TS]

01:13:13   are using them anymore [TS]

01:13:13   and of course all the criminals upgrade [TS]

01:13:15   to the one that applicant break into a [TS]

01:13:17   similar scenario that comes up [TS]

01:13:19   law enforcement has this thing they want [TS]

01:13:20   to get into it Apple can't do it [TS]

01:13:23   they're pissed off about it it becomes a [TS]

01:13:25   legal issue you know the the senators [TS]

01:13:29   and Congress people who think they can [TS]

01:13:31   get better best get elected by scaring [TS]

01:13:33   their citizenry into thinking this needs [TS]

01:13:35   to be done they say it's outrageous that [TS]

01:13:37   an American company can make phones the [TS]

01:13:39   American government can't break into [TS]

01:13:41   that should not be allowed so they [TS]

01:13:43   proposed legislation that makes [TS]

01:13:44   cryptography illegal right at that point [TS]

01:13:46   you hope someone more enforcement would [TS]

01:13:48   realize that it's it's a semi right [TS]

01:13:51   America can make whatever it wants [TS]

01:13:52   illegal you can't get rid of math like [TS]

01:13:54   the rest of the world has the math [TS]

01:13:56   people can write programs themselves and [TS]

01:13:58   make cryptography that in theory can't [TS]

01:14:01   be cracked by you know the world's [TS]

01:14:03   biggest computers for some you know like [TS]

01:14:04   that's you can't unring that Bell like [TS]

01:14:07   that exists and some of you make it [TS]

01:14:09   illegal for all that's gonna do is make [TS]

01:14:11   law-abiding US companies not do that but [TS]

01:14:15   everyone else can do it right and it is [TS]

01:14:17   it's a it's a it doesn't help law [TS]

01:14:19   enforcement right and it practically [TS]

01:14:21   speaking the criminals including [TS]

01:14:24   terrorists are not as sophisticated as [TS]

01:14:25   people think they are but if they wanted [TS]

01:14:26   to be like you know even even this guy's [TS]

01:14:29   phone if you had used an alphanumeric [TS]

01:14:30   password again the government when the [TS]

01:14:33   FBI wouldn't be able to ask Apple to [TS]

01:14:34   crack into it anyway because it would [TS]

01:14:35   take too long right maybe did in his [TS]

01:14:37   personal phone [TS]

01:14:38   yeah well he destroyed that so anyway it [TS]

01:14:40   that the way the system should work is [TS]

01:14:42   American company should be able to make [TS]

01:14:45   technology they want with the best you [TS]

01:14:46   know cryptography available to them and [TS]

01:14:48   the government should be able to spend [TS]

01:14:49   its hold Jillian's of dollars in tax [TS]

01:14:51   money to fund you know what are they [TS]

01:14:54   called like a not black box budget but [TS]

01:14:56   like you know budget that you there's [TS]

01:14:59   some work like secret budgets you're not [TS]

01:15:01   allowed to know how much money they [TS]

01:15:02   spend like homeland security in the NSA [TS]

01:15:04   by all means give this iphone to the [TS]

01:15:07   NSA's experts and have them break into [TS]

01:15:09   it using huge supercomputers you but [TS]

01:15:11   with taxpayer money like if you figure [TS]

01:15:13   out how to break in [TS]

01:15:14   good on you right then wait you know [TS]

01:15:16   because that's just that is a proper [TS]

01:15:18   balance where people get the Jew you [TS]

01:15:20   know could make better better [TS]

01:15:21   cryptography unconstrained by the law [TS]

01:15:23   and the government [TS]

01:15:24   maybe it's a little bit unbalanced the [TS]

01:15:26   government with [TS]

01:15:27   huge funding gets to hire the smartest [TS]

01:15:29   people in the world and build the [TS]

01:15:30   world's biggest computers to try to [TS]

01:15:32   crack that cryptography and you can have [TS]

01:15:34   that battle that's the way it's worked [TS]

01:15:35   for you know the forever in this country [TS]

01:15:38   is that the government does have smart [TS]

01:15:40   people to try crack things and people [TS]

01:15:42   try to make uncrackable things on the [TS]

01:15:43   outside and they go back and forth right [TS]

01:15:45   but this is the new strategy of like we [TS]

01:15:47   don't want to do that seems hard [TS]

01:15:48   applications unlock it for us and so if [TS]

01:15:51   it because it isn't about this phone [TS]

01:15:53   it's about having having easier and [TS]

01:15:55   faster access to any fun they want right [TS]

01:15:58   to be a basically to be able I'm the [TS]

01:15:59   boss of you i can make you do things [TS]

01:16:00   yeah so anyway if if this Appaloosas [TS]

01:16:03   this case apple will unlock the phone [TS]

01:16:04   then Apple will use its lobbying power [TS]

01:16:06   and its millions and try to rally the [TS]

01:16:08   tech companies to try to get legislation [TS]

01:16:10   to make this you know like it'll be the [TS]

01:16:12   whole political process but eventually [TS]

01:16:14   Apple making phone that they themselves [TS]

01:16:15   can crack into uh and then that will be [TS]

01:16:19   a political football where has to be who [TS]

01:16:21   can can we try to make this illegal [TS]

01:16:22   maybe that fight will be you know like [TS]

01:16:25   it it's the same in all these things you [TS]

01:16:28   would help eventually the public will be [TS]

01:16:30   persuaded that apple and privacy and [TS]

01:16:33   cryptography kind of has a point even as [TS]

01:16:35   esoteric as it is it [TS]

01:16:37   I think eventually it will be [TS]

01:16:39   understandable enough that a big biggest [TS]

01:16:41   like the crypto one you just have to [TS]

01:16:42   explain him like making this legal apple [TS]

01:16:44   doesn't do anything terrorists can do [TS]

01:16:45   this right now [TS]

01:16:46   you know it just doesn't matter all does [TS]

01:16:48   is mean that it's easier for other [TS]

01:16:50   people to get into your phone [TS]

01:16:51   don't make it any easier for her people [TS]

01:16:53   against terrorists phones because a [TS]

01:16:54   terrorist don't do important things on [TS]

01:16:56   phones and be that they wanted to [TS]

01:16:57   encrypt things so that no one can get it [TS]

01:16:58   except for them they could do it now [TS]

01:17:00   they could have done it a decade ago [TS]

01:17:01   that they have the technology that's not [TS]

01:17:05   what's stopping you have a lot more help [TS]

01:17:07   than I do for our people and our [TS]

01:17:09   politicians and our law enforcement [TS]

01:17:11   because everything you said can apply [TS]

01:17:13   also to drugs like yday drugs illegal [TS]

01:17:16   then regular people will be penalized [TS]

01:17:18   for not having drugs but then everyone [TS]

01:17:20   else will have drugs [TS]

01:17:21   yeah they did it anyway and it's look [TS]

01:17:23   what it's doing like it [TS]

01:17:25   yeah that I would make I don't make the [TS]

01:17:27   same big picture argument with the war [TS]

01:17:29   on drugs or it's like it we're going to [TS]

01:17:30   what you may think about an individual [TS]

01:17:31   issue what has happened over the past 10 [TS]

01:17:33   20 30 40 50 years in terms of the war on [TS]

01:17:36   drugs and whatever the results but one [TS]

01:17:37   of the intended goals and one of the [TS]

01:17:39   actual results pin and maybe pick a [TS]

01:17:41   different strategy if what you're trying [TS]

01:17:42   to do is exactly opposite of what you're [TS]

01:17:43   crossing to happen and that gets install [TS]

01:17:46   you know puritanical America that [TS]

01:17:49   actually doesn't deeper in America the [TS]

01:17:50   whole idea of like finding who to blame [TS]

01:17:52   or punished for solving the actual [TS]

01:17:53   problem and yeah yeah I was not a [TS]

01:17:55   political podcast know going into too [TS]

01:17:57   many issues but some things some things [TS]

01:17:59   do seem really intractable because of [TS]

01:18:01   the particular nature of America we [TS]

01:18:03   haven't talked about guns by the way [TS]

01:18:04   from sure we'll get feedback about this [TS]

01:18:06   all those arguments you a game [TS]

01:18:08   cryptography exactly the same arguments [TS]

01:18:09   you can give for any way that I can talk [TS]

01:18:11   about guns anyway people have things but [TS]

01:18:13   this it's it's kind of a shame that this [TS]

01:18:15   is weird esoteric and techy because it [TS]

01:18:20   in that way it would probably like Apple [TS]

01:18:23   Apple could lose this one [TS]

01:18:25   Apple Apple is going to lose one of the [TS]

01:18:26   court of public opinion Apple could win [TS]

01:18:29   it in the bill the legal court but even [TS]

01:18:31   if Apple i quote unquote wins in court [TS]

01:18:33   they're gonna come out of this as a [TS]

01:18:35   company that half of America thinks that [TS]

01:18:37   helps terrorist there's just no avoiding [TS]

01:18:38   that which is a shame for Apple it's a [TS]

01:18:40   shame for people who don't understand [TS]

01:18:43   the larger implications who don't [TS]

01:18:44   understand the the trends in American [TS]

01:18:47   life over the past several decades or [TS]

01:18:48   who agree with it because they're [TS]

01:18:50   constantly terrified of everything [TS]

01:18:51   because they watch you know fox news all [TS]

01:18:53   the time I don't know or any news for [TS]

01:18:55   that matter is most qualified watch [TS]

01:18:57   MSNBC all the time and all they know is [TS]

01:18:58   the things they're gonna kill him [TS]

01:18:59   yeah that's that's a shame then that [TS]

01:19:04   that's a bummer for Apple I mean it's [TS]

01:19:05   got a bump them cookout because I think [TS]

01:19:07   he's savvy enough person to know that [TS]

01:19:09   even if he wins he loses a little bit in [TS]

01:19:11   this one and that's why it's so it's so [TS]

01:19:13   interesting and an admirable here on the [TS]

01:19:16   side of it that that they are standing [TS]

01:19:17   up for this because the upside for them [TS]

01:19:20   is not large here but there's there is [TS]

01:19:23   almost no upside for them like like I [TS]

01:19:25   don't understand like you sell the [TS]

01:19:26   upside is that they can sell more people [TS]

01:19:28   phones like Marco said people don't care [TS]

01:19:30   enough about this know there are going [TS]

01:19:31   to buy the Apple phone because it's less [TS]

01:19:33   likely the government can no one thinks [TS]

01:19:34   about that like I there's barely any [TS]

01:19:36   upside [TS]

01:19:37   for that it like it is a net loss for [TS]

01:19:39   Apple no matter how this turns out I [TS]

01:19:40   feel like absolutely it's a huge loss [TS]

01:19:42   and immediate the the silver lining i [TS]

01:19:45   can see in this the only one I can [TS]

01:19:47   really see in this is that Apple is no [TS]

01:19:51   stranger to bad press you know and and [TS]

01:19:54   22 negativity about them and and you [TS]

01:19:59   know rumors or or slight mistress or [TS]

01:20:01   even truth about that just suck being [TS]

01:20:04   spread in the media very quickly and [TS]

01:20:07   basically sticking around forever you [TS]

01:20:09   know any kind of like you know iphone [TS]

01:20:12   flaw or the or like the the quitting [TS]

01:20:15   your apps they even or like the idea [TS]

01:20:17   that they're like that they changed the [TS]

01:20:19   the dock port to the Lightning port make [TS]

01:20:22   you revile your cables they started [TS]

01:20:23   because there's like it [TS]

01:20:26   negative negative about Apple spreads so [TS]

01:20:29   much in in the general population now [TS]

01:20:31   that you know at this is not new for [TS]

01:20:34   Apple this won't be the only negative [TS]

01:20:36   thing about them that a lot of people [TS]

01:20:37   truly or falsely believe and the other [TS]

01:20:42   thing is that that might help them here [TS]

01:20:43   is part of what makes it so hard for [TS]

01:20:47   things like the Snowden revelations to [TS]

01:20:50   really stick around in the news cycle [TS]

01:20:52   that people will move on you know like [TS]

01:20:55   next week [TS]

01:20:57   Kanye West will say something and that [TS]

01:20:59   will be like they didn't then all this [TS]

01:21:00   won't matter anymore it's like be the [TS]

01:21:02   the attention span of the of like the [TS]

01:21:06   hot topic in American news is so short [TS]

01:21:08   especially for something like this where [TS]

01:21:10   you know like the Snowden stuff where [TS]

01:21:12   it's kind of complicated and there's [TS]

01:21:15   there's no good solution or endgame here [TS]

01:21:18   that's going to happen and and just [TS]

01:21:20   understand the topic in general is [TS]

01:21:22   complicated like I've had a number of [TS]

01:21:24   like like non-geeks bring up this topic [TS]

01:21:27   in the last week or so since it came out [TS]

01:21:29   and every time their reaction is not [TS]

01:21:33   what is Apple doing to help terrorists [TS]

01:21:35   it's what exactly is going on here [TS]

01:21:37   because the it's a hard topic to [TS]

01:21:39   understand if you aren't very technical [TS]

01:21:41   and also haven't haven't like read a [TS]

01:21:44   really good summary of it you know [TS]

01:21:45   it'sit's all the very sensationalize and [TS]

01:21:47   very you know very like you [TS]

01:21:50   boosted by the media here and there but [TS]

01:21:51   nobody really like in general people [TS]

01:21:54   don't really understand it or don't have [TS]

01:21:56   a very accurate picture of it so it's [TS]

01:21:58   honestly I don't think it's going to [TS]

01:22:00   stick around for very long at in the new [TS]

01:22:03   cycle i think i think i'd be surprised [TS]

01:22:05   if anybody was talking about two weeks [TS]

01:22:07   from now to get some support for your [TS]

01:22:09   pessimism marco by the way like if you [TS]

01:22:10   think for for issues like this that are [TS]

01:22:13   technical that people don't really care [TS]

01:22:15   that much about that you need to come to [TS]

01:22:17   be into the intellectual or legal side [TS]

01:22:20   of it to really have it hold your [TS]

01:22:21   attention because it's too complicated [TS]

01:22:22   to think but otherwise very often leads [TS]

01:22:25   to terrible laws that take a long time [TS]

01:22:27   if ever to go away doesn't mean they'll [TS]

01:22:30   never go away [TS]

01:22:30   it just means that we may all be dead [TS]

01:22:33   some recent examples are like the dmca [TS]

01:22:35   all the weird you know stuff involving a [TS]

01:22:39   cable television and breaking encryption [TS]

01:22:43   on on ink cartridges for printers and [TS]

01:22:47   like all the laws that most of those are [TS]

01:22:48   my corporate lobbying obviously but laws [TS]

01:22:51   that are about technical issues like if [TS]

01:22:53   the if I feel like really feel like if [TS]

01:22:55   you took any individual American put [TS]

01:22:57   them into room and playing explain the [TS]

01:22:59   dmca actual consequences of it they [TS]

01:23:00   would come down on the side that this is [TS]

01:23:02   a stupid law you know they would [TS]

01:23:04   understand the motivations but this is [TS]

01:23:05   not the way to do it because it can be [TS]

01:23:07   abused in all these ways and look at how [TS]

01:23:08   it works and blah blah but the bottom [TS]

01:23:10   line is that pass it's still lame it's [TS]

01:23:12   not going away anytime soon eternal [TS]

01:23:13   copyright another great example you can [TS]

01:23:15   explain someone that until you're blue [TS]

01:23:16   in the face you could probably convince [TS]

01:23:17   pretty much everybody individually but [TS]

01:23:19   overall people like their I don't know [TS]

01:23:22   whatever they should know Mickey Mouse i [TS]

01:23:23   guess like no one no one thinks about [TS]

01:23:25   the long-term consequences of copyright [TS]

01:23:28   without end or any like outlying [TS]

01:23:30   encryption is an entire patent system [TS]

01:23:32   yeah the entire patent system like [TS]

01:23:33   outlawing encryption with that we can so [TS]

01:23:36   could the outlaw encryption despite how [TS]

01:23:37   stupid is like I'm hoping that law [TS]

01:23:39   enforcement realize Alan carpet is [TS]

01:23:41   pointless they wouldn't even pursuit but [TS]

01:23:42   it in pursuit they get it because law [TS]

01:23:44   enforcement is is not a culture of [TS]

01:23:47   trying to understand things it's not a [TS]

01:23:50   culture is like somethings are you know [TS]

01:23:52   like you need people sort of subject [TS]

01:23:54   matter experts thinking about the [TS]

01:23:55   consequences and then also tear them [TS]

01:23:58   with people who are good at convincing [TS]

01:23:59   other people to do what they say and [TS]

01:24:01   that's how you get good [TS]

01:24:02   it's really easy to get bad laws we have [TS]

01:24:04   lots of examples of bad laws on you're [TS]

01:24:07   just hoping that like and what what I'm [TS]

01:24:09   getting at is that your pessimism is not [TS]

01:24:10   this not this is like it you know a [TS]

01:24:12   one-way slide into doom [TS]

01:24:14   it's just that some of these things like [TS]

01:24:15   a really really long time turn around [TS]

01:24:17   long enough that you know we won't live [TS]

01:24:19   to see them like do you think you'll [TS]

01:24:20   never live to see the dmca taken away [TS]

01:24:22   no probably not you think we'll ever [TS]

01:24:24   lived to see reasonable copyright or [TS]

01:24:26   patent office certainly not right but [TS]

01:24:28   doesn't mean those things are hopeless [TS]

01:24:30   and they will never swing back in the [TS]

01:24:32   other direction because all you need it [TS]

01:24:35   because people are so fickle and have [TS]

01:24:37   short attention spans and can't be into [TS]

01:24:39   the intellectual details of every single [TS]

01:24:40   freaking thing that the government does [TS]

01:24:41   this system is always ripe for a small [TS]

01:24:45   group of smart smart people to [TS]

01:24:46   capitalize on a crisis in a way to make [TS]

01:24:48   something good happen instead of [TS]

01:24:49   something bad and that is always a [TS]

01:24:51   possibility in any sort of democracy is [TS]

01:24:54   that's why I think long-term [TS]

01:24:55   we'll never get to the really cool [TS]

01:24:57   dystopian sci-fi movies because well i [TS]

01:24:59   always think about when i watch those [TS]

01:25:00   movies like that's fine but long-term [TS]

01:25:04   long-term like I mean even though you [TS]

01:25:06   have the rise of Hitler right eventually [TS]

01:25:08   people realize we should fight this guy [TS]

01:25:09   right and it's like you go you'll never [TS]

01:25:11   have something like that would be [TS]

01:25:12   affected well what about Hitler he was [TS]

01:25:13   pretty terrible he was your right but it [TS]

01:25:15   didn't lead to and it's Hitler forever [TS]

01:25:17   like you know people die people are [TS]

01:25:20   killed people fight like again we can [TS]

01:25:23   all new car selves and that makes it [TS]

01:25:24   that doesn't satisfy believe everybody's [TS]

01:25:26   nukes like I could happen and then you [TS]

01:25:28   know the machines take over i guess i [TS]

01:25:30   don't know but the ones where it's just [TS]

01:25:32   like a bunch of people who sort of like [TS]

01:25:34   boiled frog and they slowly they slowly [TS]

01:25:36   slowly like find themselves increasingly [TS]

01:25:39   dire situations they can't get [TS]

01:25:40   themselves out of it and then you just [TS]

01:25:41   fast-forward like thousands of years and [TS]

01:25:43   it never gets any better [TS]

01:25:44   that just doesn't seem possible to [TS]

01:25:45   because in the end people people they [TS]

01:25:48   don't want to be uncomfortable they [TS]

01:25:49   don't wanna you know be sad or hurt they [TS]

01:25:52   want to just hang out and the holodeck [TS]

01:25:54   will kill everybody we all know that but [TS]

01:25:55   aside from that our fine I'm too [TS]

01:25:59   depressed even make infant timescale [TS]

01:26:01   joke [TS]

01:26:02   you don't even times the holiday key you [TS]

01:26:05   need a holodeck and that's it end of [TS]

01:26:07   humanity sorry everybody [TS]

01:26:09   this on that happy note i think we're at [TS]

01:26:13   a time tonight you want to give some of [TS]

01:26:15   the topic anyway just done that even [TS]

01:26:17   though we'll go over time I don't care [TS]

01:26:18   now we can we do in the post-show thanks [TS]

01:26:21   143 sponsor this week Squarespace [TS]

01:26:22   fracture and Harry's and we'll see you [TS]

01:26:24   next week [TS]

01:26:26   now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

01:26:31   mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

01:26:34   death was accidental [TS]

01:26:38   Jonathan [TS]

01:26:40   research Marco in kc wouldn't let him [TS]

01:26:43   because it was accidentally was [TS]

01:26:46   accidental and you can find the show [TS]

01:26:50   know today d p dot and if twitter follow [TS]

01:26:58   them [TS]

01:26:59   yes byl ISS so that's king list and a [TS]

01:27:04   co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC [TS]

01:27:11   Syracuse [TS]

01:27:21   what [TS]

01:27:25   alright so what do you want to talk [TS]

01:27:29   about that uh what's happy these days [TS]

01:27:31   anything else besides this and I want to [TS]

01:27:35   save my blue right thing for a happier [TS]

01:27:37   more tech-heavy week when we come out of [TS]

01:27:40   this politics Jones and swear never to [TS]

01:27:43   talk about it so it's you know it's [TS]

01:27:44   apple's fault right [TS]

01:27:45   it's not like we choose it's like the [TS]

01:27:47   car thing it's like Apple building a car [TS]

01:27:48   window you know we had a car podcast [TS]

01:27:51   when now we have a tech podcast then [TS]

01:27:53   Apple decides they're gonna make car [TS]

01:27:54   maybe allegedly possibly that's not [TS]

01:27:56   that's not on us but it's not like you [TS]

01:27:58   said you just wanted to talk about cars [TS]

01:28:01   again i'm not making their be rumors [TS]

01:28:02   about Apple making car and similarly we [TS]

01:28:04   don't want to talk about politics on the [TS]

01:28:06   show we avoid as much as we can but then [TS]

01:28:08   Apple is that you know the main tech [TS]

01:28:10   company to talk about the show has to [TS]

01:28:12   get into a big fight in the government [TS]

01:28:13   on a political issue [TS]

01:28:14   what can we do like it with that's I'm [TS]

01:28:17   sorry you know it had to happen and it's [TS]

01:28:19   very difficult to talk about political [TS]

01:28:21   issues without getting political so if [TS]

01:28:22   you're angry that we talked about the [TS]

01:28:24   politics and the show and you're [TS]

01:28:25   thinking of sending us an email or tweet [TS]

01:28:26   that tells us we should stick the [TS]

01:28:27   technology we were blame apple blame the [TS]

01:28:30   government [TS]

01:28:31   this is a technology related issue [TS]

01:28:33   hundred percent so is that the happy [TS]

01:28:35   topic now that's just like the the [TS]

01:28:37   pre-emptive preemptive whining I this [TS]

01:28:40   one I feel like we should pull the [TS]

01:28:41   record be done [TS]

01:28:42   yeah I don't really wanna talk with mac [TS]

01:28:44   pro is there news i don't know i don't [TS]

01:28:47   buy I'm not gonna buy American alright I [TS]

01:28:49   want to know if there was news but it is [TS]

01:28:51   known as that of course if they're [TS]

01:28:52   always assume there's no news with the [TS]

01:28:54   mac pro because almost all the time with [TS]

01:28:56   the exception of fillers activation [TS]

01:28:58   every other time there's no news about [TS]

01:29:00   the macro all there was the repair thing [TS]

01:29:02   where everyone's macros that were like [TS]

01:29:03   failing there like a repair extension [TS]

01:29:05   program to help them right god damn it [TS]

01:29:07   that wasn't this week though I know as [TS]

01:29:10   semi-reasonable I feel bad for my cuz he [TS]

01:29:11   sold as it was flaky but he could if he [TS]

01:29:13   kept a little bit longer could have got [TS]

01:29:14   a you know all the guts that presumably [TS]

01:29:16   don't suffer from whatever weird [TS]

01:29:17   problems he was having yeah but the imac [TS]

01:29:19   has been a computer for him anyway I [TS]

01:29:21   thought you know just it's great for [TS]

01:29:22   putting your iPad in front of a nice [TS]

01:29:26   backdrop but screen set right look at it [TS]

01:29:28   while uses ipad in front of it [TS]

01:29:29   well I've had people you don't want them [TS]

01:29:31   that that's not know that they have good [TS]

01:29:33   news they have a pencil news this thing [TS]

01:29:35   oh yeah we didn't mention that yeah with [TS]

01:29:37   the 9.3 the time [TS]

01:29:38   three beta at all the bases until now [TS]

01:29:41   had had removed the ability to use the [TS]

01:29:43   Apple pencil to do certain you I tasks [TS]

01:29:46   like scrolling list and panning things [TS]

01:29:48   and and our friends know that over the [TS]

01:29:54   last few weeks and months as the [TS]

01:29:56   Nightwatchman beta and then we heard [TS]

01:29:58   from a few people i think including a [TS]

01:30:00   tipster that this was actually not a bug [TS]

01:30:04   this is actually a choice apple had made [TS]

01:30:06   that the pencil shouldn't be used for [TS]

01:30:07   these things and then over the last few [TS]

01:30:10   days a whole bunch of people were [TS]

01:30:11   articles about it last week or two weeks [TS]

01:30:13   ago cortex complained about it very [TS]

01:30:16   effectively and so there's a whole bunch [TS]

01:30:17   of of complaining about over the last [TS]

01:30:19   couple of weeks and then apple announced [TS]

01:30:21   yesterday I believe that [TS]

01:30:24   well they gave a wonderfully spun PR [TS]

01:30:26   statement to the effect of we always [TS]

01:30:29   plan to do it this way band next beta [TS]

01:30:31   it'll be it'll be back here just [TS]

01:30:32   temporarily removed you know of course [TS]

01:30:34   that of course it wasn't and of course [TS]

01:30:35   that was PR spin but it's fine let's see [TS]

01:30:39   at i don't know like I don't know if you [TS]

01:30:41   take that at face value because the [TS]

01:30:42   thing it again this is the more open [TS]

01:30:43   apple which is nice that they're telling [TS]

01:30:44   us like in the old Apple wouldn't tell [TS]

01:30:46   us at all like we would you know be [TS]

01:30:47   under NDA and developers well they told [TS]

01:30:50   us something [TS]

01:30:51   baby steps right but the real thing is [TS]

01:30:53   that i wasn't thinking of is like what [TS]

01:30:55   would be the motivation for moving this [TS]

01:30:57   functionality is I think Stephen on [TS]

01:30:59   Twitter had a couple of speculation [TS]

01:31:01   about what it might be but he was wrong [TS]

01:31:02   i'm like why would they remove it like [TS]

01:31:04   assume it's intentional right and assume [TS]

01:31:06   they're not telling you this intentional [TS]

01:31:07   because they don't want to i'm just [TS]

01:31:08   trying to get a plausible reason for [TS]

01:31:10   them to intentionally remove it I got it [TS]

01:31:12   can't come up with anything [TS]

01:31:14   the the best reasons i heard were one [TS]

01:31:17   was was the idea that you should you [TS]

01:31:19   could be like scrolling things with your [TS]

01:31:21   finger but you should only be using the [TS]

01:31:23   pencil tool like tap or make marks on [TS]

01:31:26   things and enter to kind of clarify what [TS]

01:31:28   the pencil is used for but like you know [TS]

01:31:30   people aren't idiots they they know what [TS]

01:31:32   the pencils for like it so I think [TS]

01:31:34   that's not a great reason the the other [TS]

01:31:37   reason I heard that was more i think [TS]

01:31:39   more likely more credible was simply [TS]

01:31:41   that Apple didn't want to didn't want [TS]

01:31:45   people to get into the habit of not [TS]

01:31:47   using touch as the primary interface to [TS]

01:31:49   iOS in general so the overall you [TS]

01:31:51   by overall usage of these devices they [TS]

01:31:53   wanted the primary interface to remain [TS]

01:31:55   touch and I don't want anybody like [TS]

01:31:57   making apps that had a bunch of tiny [TS]

01:31:59   touch targets and then they want people [TS]

01:32:01   to be using pencil full-time but the [TS]

01:32:03   reality is that is not that is not also [TS]

01:32:06   a good enough reason like that [TS]

01:32:07   first of all like if people make after [TS]

01:32:09   the context targets [TS]

01:32:11   who cares if there's truly if that's [TS]

01:32:13   truly not all people are doing that's [TS]

01:32:15   what succeed the market will solve that [TS]

01:32:16   problem that's that's such a bad reason [TS]

01:32:18   that i like to think that it wasn't [TS]

01:32:19   there but but here it's a thing about [TS]

01:32:21   that is a modern Apple research so the [TS]

01:32:23   same say that was the reason [TS]

01:32:24   what I would like to c is for Apple to [TS]

01:32:27   say that like why can't that debate ever [TS]

01:32:29   happened in public places like a half [TS]

01:32:31   debate where they passive-aggressively [TS]

01:32:33   do something don't tell you why people [TS]

01:32:35   complain and the reverse it and never [TS]

01:32:36   told you why they were going to do in [TS]

01:32:37   the first place instead of like the [TS]

01:32:40   first beta comes out with it [TS]

01:32:41   news sites realize that it's the this is [TS]

01:32:43   the thing they write stories about it [TS]

01:32:45   and there's a public dialogue where [TS]

01:32:47   Apple immediately says 10 guys you [TS]

01:32:49   understand here's why we did this we did [TS]

01:32:50   it because we don't want people making [TS]

01:32:51   an absolute touchstart well at least you [TS]

01:32:53   could have a real debate about like the [TS]

01:32:55   merits of the issue as opposed to now [TS]

01:32:57   where the debate happens entirely [TS]

01:32:59   internally and it's just a one-sided [TS]

01:33:01   thing where people complain outside and [TS]

01:33:03   and maybe you're screaming into a void [TS]

01:33:04   or maybe apples listening [TS]

01:33:05   did you convince them or maybe they're [TS]

01:33:07   going to say it was an accident like you [TS]

01:33:09   get this whole black box thing we don't [TS]

01:33:10   know another word we need to be privy to [TS]

01:33:12   everything that's going on there but [TS]

01:33:13   just think it would behoove everyone in [TS]

01:33:16   this relationship dysfunctional [TS]

01:33:17   relationship between customer in [TS]

01:33:18   cooperation to speak openly with each [TS]

01:33:21   other to believe enough in each other [TS]

01:33:24   for Apple to tell us the real reason [TS]

01:33:25   they want to make a functional change in [TS]

01:33:27   the OS and then we can talk about the [TS]

01:33:29   reasons why we think that's dumb or you [TS]

01:33:31   know like instead of just saying we can [TS]

01:33:33   tell this is a mistake or not but God if [TS]

01:33:35   it is intentional please don't do it is [TS]

01:33:37   maybe Apple convince us maybe they have [TS]

01:33:39   a really good reason that we haven't [TS]

01:33:41   thought of right or maybe you know the [TS]

01:33:42   reason has to do with unreleased product [TS]

01:33:44   that we don't know about and they can't [TS]

01:33:45   tell us i understand this is always [TS]

01:33:46   going to be a limited situation here I [TS]

01:33:48   just feel like it would be a healthier [TS]

01:33:49   it would be healthier feedback loop [TS]

01:33:52   between customer and cooperation not [TS]

01:33:55   that either one has entire rights to [TS]

01:33:57   know what the other one thing all the [TS]

01:33:58   time but that we need to get closer to a [TS]

01:34:00   relationship where people like Marco [TS]

01:34:02   don't assume that app everything apple [TS]

01:34:03   says it all [TS]

01:34:04   because they're not gonna reveal the [TS]

01:34:06   real reason why didn't I I just think [TS]

01:34:08   the PR statement was pretty clearly BS [TS]

01:34:10   but it doesn't really matter why don't [TS]

01:34:12   you just assuming it is but like because [TS]

01:34:14   the reason sounds so dumb to you but [TS]

01:34:15   then you don't know what to think do you [TS]

01:34:16   think like are they being disingenuous [TS]

01:34:18   why would they hide especially if [TS]

01:34:19   they've changed their mind when you come [TS]

01:34:21   out and say we were originally doing a [TS]

01:34:23   reason x but now we're convinced that [TS]

01:34:24   will be the truth that the truth would [TS]

01:34:26   be we have this reason people complained [TS]

01:34:29   we were convinced by their complaints [TS]

01:34:30   that are reasons don't Trump their [TS]

01:34:32   desires [TS]

01:34:33   therefore we changed our mind like [TS]

01:34:34   that's healthy that's a healthy dialogue [TS]

01:34:36   instead of if you know again if what [TS]

01:34:38   you're saying is true [TS]

01:34:39   instead of pretending that that wasn't [TS]

01:34:41   really the case you know we always meant [TS]

01:34:43   to do this right assuming again assuming [TS]

01:34:44   they're pretending it just seems like a [TS]

01:34:46   dysfunctional relationship [TS]

01:34:49   yeah I don't know at least this is fixed [TS]

01:34:51   you know like ph.d it but whatever [TS]

01:34:53   whenever people in our parts make big [TS]

01:34:58   complaints about about a change apple is [TS]

01:35:01   floating in a beta we always hear from [TS]

01:35:03   people i always see people responding or [TS]

01:35:05   is already trying to me if I'm on the [TS]

01:35:06   critics like what do you like why do you [TS]

01:35:08   bother doing is you're just you [TS]

01:35:10   complaining what Apple but the reason [TS]

01:35:11   why they're doing it because it works [TS]

01:35:13   because at the end these things do tend [TS]

01:35:15   to get fixed [TS]

01:35:16   well it's random reward it works [TS]

01:35:18   sometimes it works randomly like it [TS]

01:35:20   worked every time it wouldn't be as [TS]

01:35:22   motivating to do it work never we would [TS]

01:35:24   never do it but it works enough for the [TS]

01:35:25   time [TS]

01:35:26   well i think you know if these kind of [TS]

01:35:27   decisions these are probably debated [TS]

01:35:29   inside apple right almost every almost [TS]

01:35:30   every decision that that like we get mad [TS]

01:35:32   about chances are people in apple were [TS]

01:35:35   also mad about them and and they argued [TS]

01:35:36   about them and so when when Outsiders [TS]

01:35:38   pile onto the argument or draw attention [TS]

01:35:40   to the argument that helps that side in [TS]

01:35:43   the app inside Apple win the argument or [TS]

01:35:46   it helps change people's minds so it it [TS]

01:35:50   is very effective and and it again [TS]

01:35:52   you're gonna win every time because like [TS]

01:35:53   if you try to argue for something like [TS]

01:35:54   well you know what I'm tired of a [TS]

01:35:56   particular shouldn't be a preview like [TS]

01:35:58   well you know you're not going to win [TS]

01:35:59   that that's unlikely keep arguing that [TS]

01:36:01   because someday like that will be on the [TS]

01:36:03   title infinite time scale it will be on [TS]

01:36:05   the table and yes I got it well is you [TS]

01:36:08   know and other examples you can complain [TS]

01:36:09   about the file system for I don't know a [TS]

01:36:10   decade alright we feel better now and [TS]

01:36:13   and then you know maybe eventually [TS]

01:36:15   they'll come around but but yeah now [TS]

01:36:17   that means the function of the the tech [TS]

01:36:19   press like I mean this is happening [TS]

01:36:20   whether you know whether Apple admits it [TS]

01:36:23   out of course it's always been happening [TS]

01:36:24   because i was made up of people and they [TS]

01:36:25   read tech press about themselves because [TS]

01:36:27   you know that's the way it works and as [TS]

01:36:29   you pointed out there's always [TS]

01:36:30   dissension within the company but in the [TS]

01:36:34   end certain people are in charge and [TS]

01:36:35   certain people aren't and apples not a [TS]

01:36:36   democracy and neither is the press and [TS]

01:36:39   neither is anything else but we're just [TS]

01:36:40   trying to get as a healthier symbiosis [TS]

01:36:43   where Apple's potential customers are [TS]

01:36:46   telling it what they would want and [TS]

01:36:48   apple it wants to give customers what [TS]

01:36:50   they want but maybe not those customers [TS]

01:36:52   maybe they see other customers are not [TS]

01:36:54   currently talking to wear that are you [TS]

01:36:55   know like again it's not it's not as a [TS]

01:36:57   customer should be in charge of apples [TS]

01:36:58   as Apple's should be in charge of the [TS]

01:37:00   customers it's just the and its opening [TS]

01:37:03   up like I feel like the dialogue is [TS]

01:37:04   opening up more than used to be and this [TS]

01:37:05   is healthy [TS]

01:37:06   we just have a ways to go yet do you [TS]

01:37:09   guys use the ipad pro Marco what you [TS]

01:37:12   told me in jar me into you and tiff [TS]

01:37:15   oh she uses that uses mine and she uses [TS]

01:37:18   the pencil navigate bunch of stuff and [TS]

01:37:20   if i use the ipad pro or any ipad on a [TS]

01:37:23   regular basis i would certainly consider [TS]

01:37:25   doing the same thing because i like the [TS]

01:37:28   pencil a lot as an input device it is [TS]

01:37:30   really nice and that's all I mean it is [TS]

01:37:33   also targeting other people have made [TS]

01:37:34   about it being either more efficient or [TS]

01:37:36   better for advanced work or better for [TS]

01:37:39   ergonomics for an operator for [TS]

01:37:40   accessibility for certain people or just [TS]

01:37:42   feels better that the mic argument is [TS]

01:37:44   sometimes it just feels better [TS]

01:37:45   exactly if I were an ipad user or if I [TS]

01:37:49   was the kind of person who likes writing [TS]

01:37:50   things with pens and pencils i would [TS]

01:37:53   certainly be using it all the time but [TS]

01:37:55   neither of those things apply to me [TS]

01:37:56   unfortunately so it's not it's not [TS]

01:37:57   really for me but I do respect a lot as [TS]

01:38:00   a really nice input device i do wonder a [TS]

01:38:02   little bit though like that in these [TS]

01:38:04   type of feedback cycles and [TS]

01:38:07   relationships that is part of the reason [TS]

01:38:08   the old Apple would not do something [TS]

01:38:10   like this because it was seen as like a [TS]

01:38:11   sign of weakness like oh we weren't we [TS]

01:38:13   weren't right we were wrong about [TS]

01:38:14   something we need to change it but part [TS]

01:38:17   of it is also that is legitimately like [TS]

01:38:20   taking taking the the angry feedback [TS]

01:38:24   from your most enthusiastic [TS]

01:38:26   users as a way to design your products [TS]

01:38:29   is a formula for death like apple [TS]

01:38:31   doesn't do that for a good reason you [TS]

01:38:32   never want to like just listen to your [TS]

01:38:34   most enthusiastic users because you will [TS]

01:38:36   evolve your product in a way that caters [TS]

01:38:40   more and more to like the the the expert [TS]

01:38:42   the super enthusiastic and you will [TS]

01:38:44   never you never get something like the [TS]

01:38:45   iPhone because the super Apple [TS]

01:38:46   enthusiast for like drawing pictures of [TS]

01:38:48   like OS 10 on a phone or something you [TS]

01:38:50   know I mean like apple doesn't do that [TS]

01:38:52   to its credit knows the trap of our [TS]

01:38:54   microsoft office on so many ways to keep [TS]

01:38:56   adding features because your excellent [TS]

01:38:57   features and you go to your experts [TS]

01:38:58   forever but for the ipad pro it's kind [TS]

01:39:02   of a sign that Apple realizes that at [TS]

01:39:04   this point the ipad pro history that [TS]

01:39:06   fanatical group of users who really love [TS]

01:39:09   the thing that's all they've got at this [TS]

01:39:11   point like they if they're going to [TS]

01:39:12   betray those people for some larger [TS]

01:39:14   market that they they don't have faith [TS]

01:39:16   that will materialize so they better [TS]

01:39:18   listen to the most passionate ipad pro [TS]

01:39:21   users because there aren't many ipad for [TS]

01:39:23   users presumably and it is kind of a [TS]

01:39:26   high-end enthusiasts product like [TS]

01:39:28   there's a hole that line of ipads for [TS]

01:39:29   the rest of the world and phones the [TS]

01:39:30   rest of the world but for the ipad pro [TS]

01:39:33   now if you're gonna listen to anybody [TS]

01:39:35   about anything like that's where you [TS]

01:39:37   would do it on the other hand at the [TS]

01:39:39   ipad pro is burning up the sales chart [TS]

01:39:41   and everybody was buying one and it was [TS]

01:39:43   like taking over the mac and mac sales [TS]

01:39:45   are going down fifty percent and ipad [TS]

01:39:46   pro sales we're gonna be like half the [TS]

01:39:49   iphone sales next year they would feel [TS]

01:39:51   confident to ignore those people and say [TS]

01:39:52   it's more important to go with our gut [TS]

01:39:54   instinct of whatever their internal [TS]

01:39:55   reasoning is so in some ways it gives me [TS]

01:39:58   a you know a view of how Apple sees the [TS]

01:40:01   current state of the ipad pro market [TS]

01:40:03   they're not in a position right now to [TS]

01:40:05   just do what they want it you know [TS]

01:40:09   despite the the house of enthusiasts [TS]

01:40:12   whereas on many other markets for [TS]

01:40:14   example the iphone people howling to be [TS]

01:40:16   able to sideload apps Apple confidently [TS]

01:40:18   ignored them as the sales graph for [TS]

01:40:20   iphones when do you know up like a ski [TS]

01:40:22   jump and that's that they were in a [TS]

01:40:25   position of strength there but on the [TS]

01:40:27   ipad pro not right now [TS]

01:40:28   yeah as much as it as much as it sucks [TS]

01:40:30   for Apple to be like losing things as [TS]

01:40:32   you know as much as it sucks for them [TS]

01:40:34   I like what comes out of them when they [TS]

01:40:36   have like a fire learn to them you know [TS]

01:40:38   I like when there [TS]

01:40:39   not in a dominant position when they're [TS]

01:40:40   fighting really hard that tends to be [TS]

01:40:42   when the best stuff comes out of them [TS]

01:40:44   except for TV boxes [TS]

01:40:46   sorry low blow so much competition in [TS]

01:40:50   that market that's a different topic [TS]

01:40:52   that's my honestly have you used it [TS]

01:40:54   that's my blu-ray top i know i know i [TS]

01:40:56   know i'm just saying I i also thought [TS]

01:40:58   there was so much competition that was [TS]

01:41:00   really good until i tried to use the [TS]

01:41:02   competition [TS]

01:41:02   well there is this lot of competition is [TS]

01:41:05   not really good yeah that's that's fair [TS]

01:41:07   is that a fire little members just like [TS]

01:41:09   a tepid water dripping on their toes i [TS]

01:41:11   don't know it's called fire but yeah it [TS]

01:41:13   doesn't really work that way I'd like to [TS]

01:41:16   set it on fire [TS]