520: Bananas Ingestion System


00:00:00   There's two items and they're both gigantic that I put the first one first, which is like headset

00:00:04   This is the what is it good for?

00:00:06   Absolutely nothing. Oh, yeah, exactly

00:00:09   So proud of us

00:00:14   Marco let me ask you a genuine question

00:00:17   What is an album that has come out in the last couple of years that you've really enjoyed that is not fish

00:00:23   I have really gotten into goose a lot recently

00:00:27   The form the aforementioned goose. Yeah, isn't that just fish by another name? No, it's a different band

00:00:32   I mean look it's like is is all music from a certain genre the same band

00:00:36   No, like there there are more than one there's more than one band in the in the jam band genre

00:00:42   Can you do it? Can you do an analogy for us? Can you do like?

00:00:45   Fish is to goose as you two is the cold play because cold play is very you two ish

00:00:51   But not as good as you two. Oh, I see. It's very fish ish, but not it's an analogies work

00:00:57   This is what happens if you take the neologies out of the SATs,

00:00:59   kids don't understand them anymore. That's what happens to people. Yeah.

00:01:02   I mean, so yeah, it's goose. It's in the same genre as fish, I would say,

00:01:05   but I don't, I wouldn't say it's worse. It's definitely,

00:01:08   it's a little bit different. It's like, you know,

00:01:11   these aren't totally overlapping circles. They're just heavily overlapping

00:01:14   circles. Um, but it's not, you know, it's not like a clone.

00:01:17   It isn't doing the exact same style. You know, it's, you know,

00:01:21   in the same way, you know,

00:01:22   you have multiple rock bands that played real rock music that are not the same

00:01:27   band and don't have the same sound.

00:01:29   - All right, so Goose, there is a new album

00:01:33   in the last several years that you've enjoyed,

00:01:35   like an actual studio album?

00:01:37   - They have a studio album.

00:01:42   I have not heard it.

00:01:43   - Oh, so you're just listening to live stuff, aren't you?

00:01:45   - Yes. - There it is, there it is.

00:01:47   Okay, are there any studio albums that you have heard,

00:01:50   discovered, heard, whatever, in the last handful of years?

00:01:53   I'm not looking to be particularly specific about this.

00:01:56   that you have enjoyed.

00:01:58   - Oh man, let me, give me a second.

00:02:00   I'm gonna look through my recently added section

00:02:02   of my Apple Music to see like which of these

00:02:05   are actually like albums.

00:02:06   What is all of this?

00:02:09   Did I add some kind of playlist?

00:02:11   - Oh, this drives me nuts about Apple Music.

00:02:14   - What is all this crap?

00:02:16   - So I am slowly, as I've said many times in the past,

00:02:19   I'm slowly beating myself into submission

00:02:22   about Apple Music and still trying to divorce myself

00:02:25   Spotify, it's not working. Where did all my fish go? All right, so here's the thing. When I transferred,

00:02:31   or whatever, I forget what service, there was an app that I used, I forget which one it was now,

00:02:35   but I used an app to suck the handful of playlists that I really, really love from Spotify into Apple

00:02:40   Music, which did work and worked reasonably well. But when you create a playlist in Apple Music,

00:02:47   and this drives me bananas, what it does is it adds all of the stuff in that playlist into your

00:02:54   library. Peer with all of the music you got when you were in college and Napster

00:02:57   was a thing. Peer with all the music you've ripped from CDs. It's all peer,

00:03:01   it's all the same, and I don't like that at all. If I want to add something in my

00:03:06   library, I'll put it in my damn library. I don't want Apple Music to take a

00:03:10   playlist and suck all that into my library. I do not want. Do not want.

00:03:15   Somehow I... In the last couple days, I went through and I deleted a bunch of

00:03:21   of old playlists and smart playlists

00:03:24   from iTunes/music app on the Mac

00:03:27   that I just hadn't used anymore,

00:03:28   'cause every time I wanted to add a song to a playlist,

00:03:30   that list was so long that I'm like,

00:03:32   you know what, let me just clean this up a little bit.

00:03:34   And I guess somehow by doing that,

00:03:36   I somehow triggered the recently,

00:03:39   everything on the recently added list,

00:03:40   this is stuff I've mostly never seen before

00:03:43   and I've never even heard of most of these bands,

00:03:45   but somehow I got a whole bunch of stuff added to this list.

00:03:48   - What is the recently added,

00:03:49   are you looking at this on your phone or on your Mac?

00:03:50   - That's the first question.

00:03:51   - Both.

00:03:52   So on the phone music app,

00:03:54   if you scroll down on the library tab

00:03:56   and you get the recently added,

00:03:58   that's usually how I listen to all my fish

00:04:00   and goose and stuff because usually I'm listening

00:04:02   to recent concerts that have been released.

00:04:04   That's like my main home listening.

00:04:05   And now there's all these things from like bands like,

00:04:10   I don't know who Bill Withers is.

00:04:11   - Oh my God.

00:04:12   - I assume this is not pronounced management, MGMT.

00:04:15   (laughing)

00:04:17   I know what Tycho is, but it's not,

00:04:19   None of these are in my library before.

00:04:21   And now I have this giant list of all this stuff

00:04:25   of bands I've never added to my library.

00:04:27   - And you don't know how that happened?

00:04:28   - No, no idea.

00:04:30   I'll see what happens if I delete it.

00:04:32   - I just look at that section on my phone

00:04:34   and I recognize all the things that it shows

00:04:35   as recently added because they're things

00:04:36   that are recently added.

00:04:37   - Yep, same.

00:04:38   Like these aren't stations I've played

00:04:40   on the HomePod or anything?

00:04:41   Like it's--

00:04:42   - Oh, Mac Music has it too.

00:04:43   I see the same thing underneath the library

00:04:44   recently added, okay.

00:04:45   - There it is.

00:04:46   All right, I deleted all that crap

00:04:47   and I got my own recents back.

00:04:48   So now I can tell you, let's see,

00:04:51   fish, fish, fish, goose, goose, goose, fish, fish.

00:04:53   - I was gonna make a duck, duck, goose joke earlier,

00:04:57   but I think you kind of beat me to it.

00:04:58   (laughing)

00:05:00   - Thriller, that's a while ago.

00:05:03   - Well, it's an old album, but it's a great album.

00:05:06   - It is, yeah, it's a while ago.

00:05:08   Distant Thunderstorms, yeah, I'm not finding,

00:05:10   this is all like top four stuff.

00:05:11   I don't know what, so the problem is that the style of music

00:05:18   that I usually like, first of all,

00:05:20   is jam band music that is mostly concert-based.

00:05:23   So while they do tend to release albums periodically,

00:05:26   they tend not to be what I'm looking for,

00:05:28   slash the best of that band.

00:05:30   - As a Dave Matthews Band fan, I know what you're saying.

00:05:33   I understand.

00:05:34   - Right, so anyway, and that's most of my music listening

00:05:38   is jam bands.

00:05:39   And then secondly from that,

00:05:41   there are other bands and genres I like,

00:05:44   but they tend to be bands that are from like the '90s

00:05:47   were early 2000s and some of them are still making albums, most of them are not. Or if

00:05:52   they do make a new album, it's not recent. So like, for instance, like Stroke 9 is one

00:05:56   of my favorite bands. I love Stroke 9. They are still making music, not super frequently

00:06:01   and usually it's released as just like singles on Bandcamp instead of a full album. They

00:06:05   did make a full album a couple years ago and I do like it. I mean, that might even be too

00:06:10   old now for it to qualify. I forget when that came out. But, um, but so that's one example

00:06:15   is the new stroke, new slash asterisk, new Stroke Nine album.

00:06:20   But again, that's not super recent.

00:06:22   - I mean, I don't care if it's an old band,

00:06:24   as long as they're releasing new music,

00:06:26   and it sounds like Stroke Nine is the only one

00:06:28   you can come up with, which that's fine.

00:06:30   I mean, you like what you like.

00:06:31   - I mean, at least, I mean, there are lots of those bands

00:06:34   that released albums like well into the modern day,

00:06:37   or like at least like the mid 2000s.

00:06:39   Like, you know, like the Spin Doctors released an album

00:06:42   in like 2008 or 10 or something,

00:06:44   and it's not bad.

00:06:45   Like there's lots of, the Meat Puppets I think

00:06:47   are still releasing albums on a regular basis.

00:06:49   There's lots of those bands.

00:06:50   I mean, Weezer can't stop crapping out mediocre music.

00:06:54   - Please email Marco, not the show, Marco.

00:06:59   - Look, some of the modern Weezer albums are decent,

00:07:01   like the one with the monster on the front.

00:07:03   - I'm actually not a particularly big Weezer fan at all,

00:07:05   to be honest with you, but I'm not spitting out hot takes,

00:07:08   well, until just now.

00:07:10   Real time follow up while I have the floor.

00:07:12   Yotalogical says that you can disable this feature

00:07:15   that I dislike so, at least on the Mac music app.

00:07:19   You go into settings, hit the advanced tab,

00:07:22   and there's a checkbox, add songs to library

00:07:23   when adding to playlists.

00:07:25   I had already had that unchecked,

00:07:26   but a lot of these playlists were created,

00:07:28   like I said, using some app on my iPhone.

00:07:30   So I don't know what the situation is there,

00:07:33   but that is good to know,

00:07:34   and I will keep an eye on that in the future.

00:07:36   So that's why I-- - So I looked up

00:07:37   the one we were on, and I said that was recent and good.

00:07:39   It's called Everything Will Be Alright in the End.

00:07:41   It's eight years old.

00:07:42   So that feels great.

00:07:45   I love the Avett Brothers,

00:07:48   that was like a fairly modern find,

00:07:51   but even that's like 2008.

00:07:53   And they're still making music,

00:07:56   but I like their older stuff better.

00:07:58   There's all sorts of bands like that.

00:07:59   So I do listen to other stuff,

00:08:02   but not a ton of it, and not super recently.

00:08:04   And part of that also is because the type of music

00:08:08   that I like outside of jam bands

00:08:10   is not really made anymore by very many bands.

00:08:13   Like, I like rock music.

00:08:15   Rock does not really exist anymore,

00:08:18   the way we knew it 20, 30 years ago.

00:08:21   There are still some bands making some music

00:08:24   that kind of sounds like rock,

00:08:25   but they're few and far between,

00:08:27   and what is now popular,

00:08:29   all the genres now that are popular,

00:08:30   really are pretty far from that kind of sound.

00:08:33   So what I'm looking for, as everyone,

00:08:36   is the music that was the style

00:08:37   when I was a teenager/young adult,

00:08:39   And that's pretty hard to come by.

00:08:42   - Jon, are there any albums that you've discovered recently

00:08:45   that are of the last few years

00:08:46   that you would like to pitch or plug?

00:08:48   - Hearing Marco talk about all these bands,

00:08:52   these old bands that are still around and making music,

00:08:55   meat puppets, anyway, I figured it was my turn

00:08:58   to try to make you two feel old

00:08:59   if you would like to look in the slack

00:09:00   at the picture I posted there.

00:09:02   - I have no idea who this man is.

00:09:04   So I'm looking at a--

00:09:04   - Looking at a high school principal, maybe?

00:09:06   - Yeah, so it's a mostly bald man.

00:09:08   And he has like the Captain Picard, you know, rim around the back of the head with a very

00:09:12   serious, almost walrus level mustache.

00:09:14   And he's looking to the right hand side of the photograph to his left and his mouth is

00:09:18   agape and it looks like he's in the midst of talking perhaps.

00:09:21   Yeah, it's hard and it's hard for me to gauge for people who are born when you two were

00:09:25   born if this is the correct timing to make you feel old.

00:09:31   But anyway, last chance.

00:09:32   Any guesses?

00:09:33   Who is this?

00:09:34   I have no earthly idea.

00:09:35   Marco?

00:09:36   formerly cool young musician who's now not cool and old.

00:09:39   (laughing)

00:09:40   - Who is it?

00:09:41   - Oh man.

00:09:43   Is that like the lead singer of Meat Puppets or something?

00:09:46   - Here you go.

00:09:47   Here you go.

00:09:49   It's the guy on the right.

00:09:50   And if you don't know who these people is,

00:09:51   so help me Marco, I will reach through this

00:09:54   and let the computer line--

00:09:54   - Mother of God, are you serious?

00:09:57   I don't know his name, but I know that this is--

00:09:59   - Don't give it, Marco, do you know what is pictured

00:10:02   in the bottom photo?

00:10:04   - I'm gonna take a wild guess.

00:10:06   I don't know for sure, I'm gonna guess, is this Oasis?

00:10:08   - Oh no. (laughing)

00:10:10   - No, I guess not, I guess I got that one wrong.

00:10:12   - Oh no, oh no, no.

00:10:14   (laughing)

00:10:15   Oh, Marco, Marco, Marco.

00:10:16   In Marco's defense, I cannot state this fellow as me.

00:10:20   - And the reason I paused there is like,

00:10:22   you never know with Marco, it's always worth asking.

00:10:26   Always, I'm gonna put in a photo of the Statue of Liberty

00:10:30   and be like, Marco, do you know what this is?

00:10:31   And you'll be like, is that Oasis?

00:10:32   (laughing)

00:10:34   Listeners, maybe Mark will put it in the show.

00:10:37   Casey, what have I pasted into the chat room?

00:10:39   What have I pasted here?

00:10:40   - So again, the first picture was

00:10:42   the old high school principal bald mustache,

00:10:45   ball-wrist mustache.

00:10:46   The bottom picture is the band Nirvana with Dave Grohl.

00:10:50   - You may be familiar with them.

00:10:50   They're obscure, you might not have heard of them.

00:10:52   I don't know.

00:10:53   - I never knew Kurt Cobain's hair was that short

00:10:55   at any point.

00:10:56   - They're leaving like an RV or a trailer or whatnot.

00:10:59   It's Dave Grohl on the left, Kurt Cobain in the center.

00:11:01   - I mean, I never heard of Dave Grohl.

00:11:02   You like the Foo Fighters.

00:11:04   - He's like 10.

00:11:05   (laughing)

00:11:06   - That's the whole point of this.

00:11:08   - Also his hair is too short.

00:11:09   None of you, the one guy in the picture with long hair

00:11:12   is the guy you were asking about who I don't know,

00:11:14   Dave Grohl and Kurt Cobain always had much longer hair

00:11:18   than that when I, like the part that I knew of them.

00:11:20   - Listen, this is a photo of the entire band Nirvana

00:11:23   when they were popular and you thought it was Oasis,

00:11:25   so you're not coming back from this, I'm sorry.

00:11:27   (laughing)

00:11:28   - I mean, they got the time period almost right.

00:11:31   - But anyway, does that make you feel old?

00:11:32   I guess not 'cause you don't even know as heck they are,

00:11:34   - It makes me feel really frickin' old, my goodness.

00:11:36   - I can tell you which of the songs are MePuppet songs.

00:11:39   (laughing)

00:11:41   - Can we also agree, this is tangentially related,

00:11:44   that Dave Grohl is possibly the coolest

00:11:46   and most awesome human that has ever existed ever?

00:11:50   - He seems fine.

00:11:51   - I love Dave Grohl, he makes me so happy.

00:11:53   Like, as far as, okay, so first of all,

00:11:54   with the disclaimer, as far as we know,

00:11:56   he's not like a jerk in any major ways,

00:11:58   so that helps a lot, but like,

00:12:00   he just puts out so much good music

00:12:02   and so much good energy into the music world.

00:12:04   Like he just seems like, he seems like he's one of those

00:12:06   pure musicians who just wants to rock all the time.

00:12:09   And not to mention the fact that he is incredibly talented

00:12:12   at doing so, so yeah, I have a lot of respect for him.

00:12:15   - Did I photograph them playing at WWDC?

00:12:18   Am I imagining that or was that a different band?

00:12:20   - They played at the, no Foo Fighters never played

00:12:22   when we were there, John.

00:12:23   - Who played at WWDC?

00:12:24   - Weezer played one of ours, it was not a,

00:12:26   it was a terrible gig.

00:12:28   I can't, nothing against them, they're never,

00:12:31   They haven't ever been known for putting on a great show,

00:12:33   but this was also the world's most horrible gig

00:12:38   for a band to play.

00:12:39   You're playing with the backs of a bunch of nerds

00:12:41   who were trying to stay as far away from you as possible

00:12:43   so they could talk to each other.

00:12:44   - I have too many WWDC pictures.

00:12:47   - But yeah, just to stall for time,

00:12:49   I really enjoyed the Newish Muse album,

00:12:54   speaking of rock music, Will of the People.

00:12:56   Silver Sun Pickups just came out with a new out,

00:12:58   new-ish album, Physical Thrills, which is very good.

00:13:01   I also have really enjoyed particularly

00:13:03   the first few songs of Halsey's

00:13:06   If I Can't Have Love, I Want Power.

00:13:08   Very, very good album, really enjoyed all those.

00:13:11   And those are all in the last year or two,

00:13:13   if I recall correctly.

00:13:15   - I just put a picture in the chat room.

00:13:17   - Yeah, that's what you said.

00:13:18   The giant W symbol kind of gives that one away.

00:13:21   - I don't know why I thought it was the Foo Fighters.

00:13:22   - WWDC 2019.

00:13:24   - It was a couple years ago, yeah.

00:13:25   - That was the last time we were all together, wasn't it?

00:13:28   Oh, sad.

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00:15:16   me caffeinated and for sponsoring our show.

00:15:22   should probably do a show for anyone that's actually still listening. I think

00:15:27   we might have driven, this might be the time, this might be the episode that

00:15:30   we've driven everyone off. So for the three of you that are still here, thank

00:15:33   you for hanging out with us. Let's drive you off too and talk about healthcare in

00:15:37   the United States! Whoo! So a handful of people pointed us to, I feel like I've

00:15:43   heard of this fellow, although I don't know any of his work and that's not, I'm

00:15:46   not trying to be funny, I'm really serious. Brian David Gilbert, who

00:15:49   apparently is pretty popular on YouTube, did an overview of US healthcare terminology, which covers

00:15:56   a lot, a lot, a lot of terminology, and because it's the US government, a lot of acronyms.

00:16:01   This was very interesting. I had pieced together over time almost everything that he talked about,

00:16:07   so I was pretty proud of myself. But there's definitely stuff in this that I didn't know.

00:16:13   And if you live in a civilized country and want to see how barbaric and ridiculous

00:16:17   Our setup is, this is the video for you,

00:16:20   'cause, ooh, boy, it is entertaining,

00:16:23   but it is, not the video,

00:16:25   but our healthcare system is a mess.

00:16:27   - Yeah, it's not aimed at, like,

00:16:29   explaining the healthcare system.

00:16:30   It's aimed at, like, 'cause he made a video,

00:16:31   he's making lemons out of lemonade.

00:16:33   He, like, either lost a job or left his job,

00:16:35   and he was out on his own and needed to deal with healthcare,

00:16:38   not through, you know, his employer,

00:16:41   or, you know, continuing his healthcare from his employer,

00:16:43   and so he had to do a crash course,

00:16:44   and, like, I've never had to do this before.

00:16:46   I've gotta learn about it.

00:16:47   And so as part of the process of learning about it,

00:16:49   he made a video, because that's what

00:16:50   you do if you're a YouTuber.

00:16:52   And it makes perfect sense.

00:16:53   And so that's what it's about.

00:16:54   It's kind of like, if you're just leaving school

00:16:57   or just going off your parents' health care

00:16:58   and you don't know how the system works in the US,

00:17:00   this video is for you.

00:17:02   But he also put in a little section--

00:17:04   I mean, you do learn a lot about the US health care section.

00:17:06   He put in a little bit in the beginning that says--

00:17:11   and I'm quoting from the video--

00:17:12   "And for those of you non-Americans watching

00:17:13   this video thinking, I don't need to watch this video,

00:17:15   I'm British.

00:17:16   Consider it a cautionary tale, because there are definitely

00:17:19   people in your country that want to privatize healthcare,

00:17:22   and you can't let them do that.

00:17:23   And then he emphasizes, you can't let them do that,

00:17:26   because it's terrible and you'd become like us.

00:17:28   (laughing)

00:17:30   - The best part of this, by the way,

00:17:31   was that he was wearing, or he had kind of like dubbed,

00:17:34   if you will, Chroma Key.

00:17:35   - Oh, don't ruin the joke.

00:17:36   - All right, all right.

00:17:37   - Let people watch it, it's humor.

00:17:38   - Well, you should watch it for the visual gag as well.

00:17:41   But yeah, it's terrible here.

00:17:43   - My favorite term, by the way, is coinsurance.

00:17:46   It's one of those things where it's like,

00:17:48   it sounds like a good thing.

00:17:50   Oh, I get 80% co-insurance, what's that?

00:17:54   And then you learn, oh, depending on what side

00:17:57   of the line it's on, it's like, oh, that means

00:17:59   I pay either 20% or 80% of--

00:18:02   - Or more likely 80%.

00:18:04   - The entire cost of whatever operation I would get

00:18:07   in that scenario or whatever, it's like,

00:18:08   oh, that's not super useful after all.

00:18:12   Yeah, we have all sorts of fun stuff.

00:18:16   And also my favorite feedback from people

00:18:18   on our healthcare thing was,

00:18:20   why don't you just move to insert better country here?

00:18:23   It's like, well, that's easier said than done

00:18:27   for most people.

00:18:27   Like I think most people, the suggestion of,

00:18:31   why don't you just move across the world

00:18:33   to a different country, might not be super helpful.

00:18:36   - I mean, especially when it's phrased that way.

00:18:38   I feel like that's the type of thing

00:18:40   where if I was in a Starkey move, I would be like,

00:18:43   what's your best guess?

00:18:45   which is my, here's my answer,

00:18:46   it's like why don't you just move to a different country?

00:18:47   It's like, I don't know, like what do you think,

00:18:50   what are possible answers to that question

00:18:52   why someone wouldn't wanna move to another country?

00:18:54   That's right, I'm on the board, class.

00:18:56   (laughing)

00:18:57   - I mean, cost, logistics, family, jobs.

00:19:00   - I bet if we put our heads together,

00:19:02   we can come up with some kind of,

00:19:04   why would someone not want to leave the country?

00:19:05   - Citizenship, they wouldn't let us,

00:19:08   it turns out you can't easily move

00:19:10   to whatever country you want.

00:19:11   - Yeah, first of all, other countries

00:19:12   aren't all necessarily saying,

00:19:14   sure, come live here.

00:19:15   You can live here permanently forever really easily.

00:19:17   I mean, granted, not all of them are as bad as the US

00:19:20   in that regard, but some of them are, you know, whatever.

00:19:22   But yeah, all the other stuff like our family's here,

00:19:24   it's expensive, we have a house, kids are in school,

00:19:26   like all the reasons you would expect.

00:19:28   So to answer that question,

00:19:29   but that's not really what they're asking.

00:19:30   What they're really saying is,

00:19:31   we have it better here,

00:19:33   and if you came here, you would be happier.

00:19:35   And they're probably right,

00:19:37   but it's still a big ask, as they say.

00:19:39   - Or at least like, it might be better in that way,

00:19:42   but there also might be other changes

00:19:44   that we would not view as better.

00:19:46   - I mean, not being able to speak the language

00:19:47   would be difficult for a lot of the countries.

00:19:49   - Oh right, I forgot about language.

00:19:50   - For the countries that do speak English,

00:19:52   pretty much everything is better.

00:19:53   - Like Australian?

00:19:54   Man, I had no chance understanding anything they say.

00:19:57   - I don't know if you're kidding,

00:19:58   but I'm not when I say I think you're right,

00:20:00   because Australians abbreviate everything.

00:20:03   - Oh, you'd be fine.

00:20:05   You'd be fine and it would be fun.

00:20:07   - Is Australian internet access still terrible?

00:20:09   Is it still really slow?

00:20:10   - No, I think it's gotten better.

00:20:11   I think it's at least mediocre,

00:20:13   but it's way, way, way cheaper,

00:20:14   which is an improvement.

00:20:17   We had a Canadian, a couple of Canadians write us,

00:20:20   and here's the thing, I like seasons.

00:20:23   I like to have a season other than winter,

00:20:25   please and thank you, so hard pass.

00:20:27   - Yeah, and if I'm only gonna have one season,

00:20:29   that's the last one I would pick.

00:20:31   (laughing)

00:20:32   - Now this is when you're all firing up your emails.

00:20:34   I know there are other seasons.

00:20:36   I'm kidding, mostly.

00:20:38   But I just like Fahrenheit too much,

00:20:39   and that's why I won't move.

00:20:40   - The good thing with Canadian emails are,

00:20:41   they show up as only about 90% the size of ours.

00:20:44   (laughing)

00:20:46   - Gosh.

00:20:46   John, tell me about this ours technical article, please.

00:20:49   - Oh yeah, just one more link for the people

00:20:51   who want to learn more about it.

00:20:52   The headline is, you know, you'd write this article

00:20:54   every year for the past 100 years,

00:20:57   it'd probably be true.

00:20:58   US still has the worst, most expensive healthcare

00:21:00   of any high income country.

00:21:02   As a country, the US spends more in healthcare

00:21:04   than any other high income country in the world

00:21:06   on the basis of both per person costs

00:21:07   and share of gross domestic product

00:21:09   Compared with other high-income peers,

00:21:11   the US has the shortest life expectancy at birth,

00:21:13   the highest rate of avoidable deaths,

00:21:15   the highest rate of newborn deaths,

00:21:16   the highest rate of maternal deaths,

00:21:17   the highest rate of adults with chronic conditions.

00:21:20   We pay the most, we get the worst.

00:21:21   We're number one, woo, US healthcare.

00:21:23   - USA, USA.

00:21:25   - And again, this is not a new thing.

00:21:27   This has been true for our entire lives.

00:21:28   The system sucks.

00:21:30   We're trying to change it.

00:21:31   We are stopped by many powerful forces and stupidity.

00:21:34   (laughing)

00:21:35   - All right, it wouldn't be a new Apple product

00:21:38   If we didn't have some sort of drama around it, we were talking about SSDs last week.

00:21:43   Well, new HomePod review units are out, and guess what, baby?

00:21:47   On the plus side, it does have a removable power cable.

00:21:49   In fact, it comes removed in the box, apparently.

00:21:52   But the white ring on wood tables, I don't even know what to call this, but the ring

00:21:57   on tables thing is still a thing, apparently, at least at the beginning.

00:22:02   MKBHD has a video, which we'll link in the show notes, where he discusses how the new

00:22:06   HomePod does still indeed leave a different and lighter ring on wood surfaces, particularly

00:22:11   the white one. But then I just saw a follow-up, maybe it was a reel on Instagram, I don't

00:22:15   remember where I saw it, so I probably won't link it for the show notes, but he had said

00:22:19   after the first like one or two placements, you know, he put it down on a table and then

00:22:24   moved it once, then moved it again, and by like the third or fourth time he said that

00:22:28   ring doesn't seem to be coming back anymore. So his suggestion, I'm not sure how you would

00:22:32   do this, but his suggestion was clean the bottom of your home pod and see if that makes

00:22:37   a difference before you stick it on untreated wooden tables.

00:22:40   So this, we had this discussion when the very first big home pod came out, and in practice

00:22:47   it is the type of thing that basically resolve itself because either because people don't

00:22:51   care that it was doing that or they found a place to put it where this wasn't an issue

00:22:54   or it didn't once it went away.

00:22:56   This is not like, the story here is not so much that, you know, this problem remains

00:23:01   or something. The story is that the new HomePod is so unchanged from the old one despite essentially

00:23:07   having every single part be new as far as I know. Like it's not the same size, not the

00:23:11   same shape, the foot on the bottom is not the same, the screen on the top is not the

00:23:13   same, the insides aren't the same. It's like an all new HomePod, but as I talked about

00:23:19   last time when we discussed the new HomePod, they didn't really rethink this product. Down

00:23:24   to this little weird annoyance that wasn't a very big issue, but hey, if you're coming

00:23:30   up with the new HomePod, shouldn't everything be on the table? We could do better the second

00:23:34   time around. I guess it makes a lighter ring, you know, the second time around. The foot

00:23:39   is differently shaped, but they didn't even reconsider, like, is there another way we

00:23:42   can -- could the bottom of the HomePod be different in some way to totally avoid this

00:23:47   issue? And they did not address that. They did not rethink that. They just basically

00:23:51   did a slightly updated version of the same rubber foot they had before.

00:23:55   But now only five tweeters are pushing down

00:23:57   to make the ring.

00:23:58   (laughing)

00:23:58   - Yeah.

00:23:59   - No, as far as the home, I don't have mine yet.

00:24:02   I think I'm gonna have it for next week's show,

00:24:04   but I don't have it yet.

00:24:05   But I think, I'm pretty encouraged by the reviews so far.

00:24:09   The reviews basically say it sounds about the same,

00:24:14   but is faster.

00:24:16   And that's exactly what I wanted with the,

00:24:19   that's exactly the low expectations version of this product.

00:24:23   And I think, again, I'm very happy

00:24:26   that this update happened at all.

00:24:28   There are so many things I would love

00:24:30   to do differently with this product

00:24:32   if they actually put more effort into a real redesign

00:24:36   and a real rethink of this product

00:24:38   and maybe this product line.

00:24:40   I would love to see them do more, and we all would.

00:24:42   But I'm of the impression that,

00:24:45   or at least I'm of the theory that

00:24:47   I don't think the discontinuation of the first HomePod

00:24:50   was necessarily planned or happened on schedule

00:24:55   or whatever, I suspect that was a product

00:24:59   that they expected to last longer than it did

00:25:01   and they expected to sell better than it did.

00:25:03   I mean, we were hearing that they were still selling out

00:25:05   their launch stock, so maybe it's like at the end there.

00:25:09   So maybe they just massively made way too many of them

00:25:12   and then something changed in the COVID era

00:25:15   where it used an old processor on an old process node

00:25:20   and nothing else in the lineup at that time

00:25:22   was still using anything as old as the A8 as far as I know.

00:25:25   And so it's possible with all the chip shortages and stuff

00:25:27   they couldn't even get any more A8s

00:25:30   if they wanted to make more.

00:25:31   It's also possible that all the different things

00:25:34   we were hearing about like certain bad electronic parts

00:25:37   or physical design flaws that would slowly fry

00:25:40   certain components, maybe it would just cost them

00:25:42   too much in repairs and they couldn't redesign it yet

00:25:44   or whatever the case may be,

00:25:46   I think that that product's lifespan was cut short.

00:25:48   They probably, at that time, when they discontinued it,

00:25:51   that's probably when they started making this one,

00:25:53   and it took them this long to do it,

00:25:55   because, you know, Apple's Apple.

00:25:56   But I don't think they actually really were stepping back

00:25:59   and rethinking and redesigning this product.

00:26:01   I think they were putting out fires from the first one.

00:26:04   Just metaphorically speaking,

00:26:05   I don't think it actually started fires, as far as I know.

00:26:08   They were trying to just fix whatever was causing them

00:26:10   to not even be able to continue the product existing.

00:26:13   They fixed those things and engineered this new one

00:26:16   with whatever resources they were able to justify here.

00:26:19   Because again, this is probably not

00:26:21   a high volume product at all.

00:26:23   So they can't afford to drop everything

00:26:27   from their more important product lines

00:26:29   and put a bunch of engineers in this

00:26:31   and get a new version out there in six months.

00:26:33   I don't think that's a thing they could do here.

00:26:35   They couldn't justify that kind of prioritization

00:26:37   for this product.

00:26:38   They did what they could with the resources

00:26:40   that whatever team did this was able to get from the company.

00:26:43   So this is a good like HomePod 1.5 maybe,

00:26:47   but if they ever do like a true 2.0,

00:26:51   I would hope to see more changes.

00:26:53   And again, I don't have mine yet, so we'll see,

00:26:55   but for instance, obviously some kind of input

00:26:59   would be great. (laughs)

00:27:01   I don't think they're ever gonna do it

00:27:03   because that's not their way,

00:27:04   but that would certainly be great

00:27:05   for preserving the lifespan of these products,

00:27:08   to use them in the future.

00:27:09   Look at how many people have iPod Hi-Fis

00:27:12   still in use today because they have inputs

00:27:15   and they're able to have this perfectly good

00:27:17   working speaker, they're able to use it afterwards,

00:27:20   after all of the technology is outdated,

00:27:23   after the whole product line it was made to hold

00:27:27   and work with, it doesn't even exist anymore.

00:27:29   Long after that, people still can use iPod Hi-Fis today

00:27:33   because it has a line input

00:27:34   and it's just an AC powered speaker

00:27:36   and those things tend to last a long time

00:27:37   when they don't have any major design flaws.

00:27:39   I would love for the HomePods to have that kind of

00:27:42   versatility and potential lifespan and future use.

00:27:45   That would be great, 'cause they're really good speakers.

00:27:47   I would also love them to rethink the control surface.

00:27:51   I can't tell you how many times,

00:27:54   if you've ever had a HomePod on a counter

00:27:57   near a light switch, you have had this problem

00:28:00   where you walk by to flip the light switch off

00:28:03   and you accidentally brush a finger

00:28:06   against that tuck surface.

00:28:08   And maybe since you're turning the light off,

00:28:09   maybe it's late at night and your house is quiet

00:28:11   and people are already asleep.

00:28:13   And because you brushed that finger

00:28:15   against that tuck surface when you turn the light off,

00:28:17   it instantly starts blasting your Foo Fighters

00:28:20   that you were playing earlier to your quiet house.

00:28:23   And ugh, just. (laughs)

00:28:26   And of course that is not an option.

00:28:27   Whatever action is like, you tap the home pod

00:28:31   to resume playing whatever it was playing before,

00:28:33   can't turn that off.

00:28:34   So that's just it.

00:28:34   Good luck ever dusting one, same thing, same reason.

00:28:38   But why would dust accumulate on a flat surface

00:28:41   facing straight up?

00:28:43   Anyway, so there's lots of little tweaks.

00:28:47   The power cord, I'm glad it's removable.

00:28:49   But I would prefer if it had a standard IEC power socket

00:28:52   because then I could buy a shorter or longer one.

00:28:55   Again, these are things that I would change.

00:28:58   Maybe have some kind of, as I mentioned before,

00:29:00   some kind of battery version, whatever.

00:29:01   I don't wanna go too far into this

00:29:02   'cause I don't even have mine yet.

00:29:04   but basically I think it's right to look at this product

00:29:07   not as a 2.0, but as like at best a 1.5,

00:29:11   because this was a oh crap, something went wrong product.

00:29:14   This was not intended to ever, to be like,

00:29:18   this was not the plan from the beginning I don't think.

00:29:19   If you look at what happened,

00:29:21   I can't imagine this was planned from the beginning

00:29:23   to be this way, so let's judge this product for what it is,

00:29:26   which is a revision to the previous HomePod, not a sequel.

00:29:31   - I've watched a lot of the reviews,

00:29:33   And I feel like they're kind of not encouraging to me.

00:29:37   A lot of people say, oh, it sounds just as good, it's fine.

00:29:39   Like you don't notice any of the missing stuff.

00:29:41   But there are a bunch of ones,

00:29:42   including ones that had people like blindfolded

00:29:44   so they didn't know what thing they were listening to

00:29:46   that were picking the old HomePod over the new one.

00:29:48   And I didn't see a single one

00:29:50   that was saying the new one sounds better than the old.

00:29:52   So that's not particularly encouraging,

00:29:54   but it'll probably be fine.

00:29:55   - We'll see.

00:29:56   It is very, very difficult.

00:29:58   I talked about this before.

00:29:59   It's very, very difficult to do fair,

00:30:02   accurate blind test of audio equipment.

00:30:05   Because even the slightest difference in volume

00:30:08   or the very slightest difference in the EQ balance

00:30:12   can make somebody think one sounds better than the other.

00:30:14   - I know, but if that was the case,

00:30:15   I would have expected to see some

00:30:17   where it went the other direction,

00:30:19   some where the new one was preferred and I didn't.

00:30:20   I mean, I maybe watched like seven reviews,

00:30:23   so it's not a great sample size, but I'm just saying.

00:30:26   - I've also, for whatever it's worth,

00:30:28   I have found that whatever I am looking for

00:30:32   in headphones or speakers, oftentimes it does not line up

00:30:37   with what tech reviewers are looking for

00:30:39   when they review speakers and headphones.

00:30:42   Like there's been so many times where the tech world

00:30:46   will just be fawning all over some new headphone

00:30:51   or speaker or even microphone that comes out

00:30:53   and then I get it and try it and I do a direct comparison

00:30:55   to other stuff and I'm like I don't get it.

00:30:58   Why is this special, why is this good?

00:30:59   this is not as good as they say it is to my ears.

00:31:01   And you know, at first, my original MO on that

00:31:05   was basically to go on my blog and say everyone's wrong.

00:31:08   And that's how I started my original beef

00:31:10   with the wire cutter where he insulted

00:31:12   my genitals on Twitter.

00:31:13   My new strategy here, my new approach here

00:31:16   is just to assume I'm the weird one here.

00:31:18   'Cause I know, look, people's tastes vary

00:31:20   and also people's taste in audio products shifts over time.

00:31:25   Like your ears change over time,

00:31:27   your preferences change over time,

00:31:28   your taste changes over time.

00:31:30   All I can say is I often don't agree

00:31:33   with what tech reviewers look for in audio gear.

00:31:37   So, and I would imagine that probably applies

00:31:40   to lots of you out there.

00:31:40   You also might not agree with them

00:31:42   for different reasons, in different directions maybe.

00:31:44   But it's very, very difficult

00:31:46   to measure audio quality of something.

00:31:49   It's very subjective.

00:31:50   And then to try to communicate that in a review

00:31:53   in a useful way is even more difficult.

00:31:56   And then you reading or watching it,

00:31:58   you really have no idea whether you would like this

00:32:01   in your room, in your house,

00:32:02   playing your music to your ears.

00:32:04   So it's so difficult to make comparisons.

00:32:07   So that's why you kinda just gotta,

00:32:10   you can take general ideas from people,

00:32:12   like hey, in general, this set of products over here

00:32:15   is pretty good and is worthy of consideration,

00:32:18   and maybe this set of products over here is not so good.

00:32:21   But the specifics of small details.

00:32:23   Hey, does this thing sound better than this thing?

00:32:25   Well, kinda, sorta, maybe, depends on what you want

00:32:27   or what you're playing or whatever, your room.

00:32:29   There's so many little variations

00:32:31   and little details that matter a lot

00:32:33   that you can't make subtle distinctions very well

00:32:36   in a repeatable, useful way.

00:32:38   - Good news, Marco.

00:32:39   You can buy a third-party cable

00:32:40   and connect it to your new HomePod.

00:32:42   - You can?

00:32:43   What kind of plug is it?

00:32:44   - Plug it into this 9to5Mac story

00:32:45   that was posted in the chat

00:32:46   and has a little caption on a picture

00:32:48   that shows some ugly black third-party cable

00:32:50   that says, plugged into a new HomePod,

00:32:51   it says you can use any figure eight cable

00:32:54   as a replacement.

00:32:55   - Oh my God. - I don't know

00:32:55   what a figure eight cable is, but--

00:32:56   - It's the one on the back of the Apple TV

00:32:59   in the most PlayStations.

00:33:00   - Yeah, but it looks bigger than that.

00:33:01   Maybe I can't tell from the picture.

00:33:02   It's a similar shape.

00:33:03   - No, it looks exactly like that.

00:33:04   Yeah, that's one of the IEC cable types.

00:33:06   I forgot the name of it, but that's a standard cable.

00:33:08   Oh, that's great.

00:33:10   - I was gonna say, I would imagine that they wouldn't

00:33:12   have come up with it, because to get a new cable,

00:33:14   new connector type, like certified or whatever,

00:33:16   blah, blah, blah, would be kind of annoying and painful.

00:33:19   I was gonna say it looked a lot like the one

00:33:21   that's in the back of my PlayStation 5, but maybe bigger,

00:33:23   but again, I can't tell scale from these photos,

00:33:24   so maybe it is the exact same size.

00:33:26   - Yeah, it looks like it's,

00:33:27   and thanks to David Chobb in the chat,

00:33:28   it's a C7 or C8 cable.

00:33:30   - Depends on whether the engine is in the front

00:33:32   or in the mid engine, yeah.

00:33:35   - Reference acknowledged.

00:33:37   All right, John, can you figure out

00:33:40   or perhaps tell Marco the answer

00:33:42   to all of his USB charging woes, please?

00:33:44   - We can try.

00:33:45   We got a big authoritative answer

00:33:47   from our friend of the show, Jonathan Dietz,

00:33:49   whose name I hope I'm pronouncing correctly,

00:33:51   as he's written in so many times.

00:33:53   Here is quoting from his email.

00:33:55   The short answer to Marco's question about why USB type C chargers don't work with the

00:34:00   Genki accessories is that they're non-compliant.

00:34:04   There are, however, chargers that might work with these devices anyway.

00:34:07   So that's quoting from him.

00:34:08   And then he wrote a big long email explaining it was way too long for me to put it in the

00:34:12   show so I'm trying to summarize it.

00:34:14   Forgive me if I'm getting any of this wrong.

00:34:15   I did not run it past him.

00:34:17   But here's my summary of what was in the email.

00:34:19   So here's the timeline.

00:34:22   In the absence of relevant standards, Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, and others came up with

00:34:26   their own proprietary charging standards for multiple voltages and currents over USB cables.

00:34:31   They just did what they felt like they were doing, mostly involved series of resistors

00:34:34   and depending on the resistance you'd get different voltage and amps and all, they all

00:34:37   came up with their own thing.

00:34:39   This is proprietary charging standards, they just did what they wanted.

00:34:42   Tons of manufacturers made chargers that work with these various proprietary systems, which

00:34:46   makes sense once Apple, Samsung, and all these other companies do it, then people will just

00:34:50   copy and say, okay, if you buy this, it will work with your, you know, thing, right?

00:34:54   With the release of version 1.3 of the USB Type-C specification on July 14th, 2017, proprietary

00:35:02   charging was deprecated.

00:35:04   Apple promptly replaced all of its Type-C power bricks with new compliant models.

00:35:09   So that, you know, it used to be these proprietary ones were sort of under the umbrella of the

00:35:12   USB thing, but when they updated for Type-C spec, said, no, no, no, we have our own charging

00:35:17   thing.

00:35:18   This is what it is.

00:35:19   crap that you were doing before in the wild west that's out and then the important part is that

00:35:23   apple said okay now from this point forward we're not all of our charging brick things that come are

00:35:29   not going to support the whole proprietary stuff if you have a usb type c brick type thing uh you

00:35:36   know or a device that will charge from a type a charger but not a type c one it's probably using

00:35:41   a proprietary charging mode if you can get your hands on an apple 29 watt 61 watt 87 or 87 watt

00:35:48   USB-C power adapter sold prior to the USB type C 1.3 spec changeover. That means one of those bricks

00:35:55   that was sold before 2018, it might be a universal charger. So that's the answer. Why doesn't this

00:36:01   thing work? Why can't they make one or whatever? The thing you have is probably used for proprietary

00:36:05   charging method and you're probably trying to use a more modern Apple charging brick because you have

00:36:08   modern stuff. So here going back to Jonathan, his conclusion, Marco's issue has nothing to do with

00:36:13   with USB power delivery as that specification

00:36:16   doesn't even come into play here.

00:36:18   It's related to buying non-certified, non-compliant crap

00:36:20   made by people who are too lazy to copy

00:36:22   a working USB Type-C design from sometime

00:36:25   in the past five years.

00:36:26   So that's the solution.

00:36:27   If you wanna find something that will charge it,

00:36:28   apparently if you can find one of those old Apple chargers

00:36:31   before they remove support for quote unquote

00:36:33   proprietary charging, that will work.

00:36:35   - Yeah, and apparently the root of the issue here

00:36:38   is when they designed USB-C power delivery,

00:36:40   keep in mind that power delivery,

00:36:42   Not only does it support a whole bunch of different voltages

00:36:45   and levels of current across a pretty wide range

00:36:48   and up to a very substantial amount of power,

00:36:51   but it also supports powering things bi-directionally.

00:36:54   Like the cable can't tell which end is the source

00:36:57   without these protocols being followed that are more

00:37:00   advanced than old dumb power.

00:37:01   And so you wouldn't want to have the cable just always pass

00:37:04   power without knowing what it is because it could be passing

00:37:07   power in the wrong direction.

00:37:09   And that could do things like start fires in worst case

00:37:12   So, they have this basic method where,

00:37:15   and forgive me if I'm getting the details wrong,

00:37:16   but basically, USB-C ports can optionally put

00:37:21   like one resistor across two pins,

00:37:24   and that will tell the cable,

00:37:26   treat this like the old dumb charger thing.

00:37:30   So, if you have that one resistor in place,

00:37:33   a USB-C port can take power from any PD supply,

00:37:38   and it'll just send it old five volt,

00:37:40   you know, 2.4 amp or whatever power,

00:37:42   just like all the old USB-A stuff.

00:37:45   And so all these devices that we have

00:37:47   that are coming out that have USB-C holes

00:37:50   that do not charge from USB-C power bricks

00:37:52   could have fixed that problem apparently

00:37:54   with the addition of one resistor.

00:37:57   And they just don't or didn't.

00:37:59   - That's what he's saying about janky non-compliant stuff

00:38:01   that didn't copy a working design

00:38:03   from sometime in the past five years.

00:38:05   - Yes, so now we know the reason.

00:38:07   Unfortunately, that's not really a solution,

00:38:11   and it sounds like there probably really can't

00:38:14   be a good solution.

00:38:15   - Well, what about the using the old Apple Power Bricks

00:38:17   before they remove support for proprietary charging?

00:38:19   'Cause that will work with your janky old crap

00:38:21   because those Power Bricks will, they can do PD,

00:38:23   but they can also do all the old weird proprietary ones

00:38:26   from Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm,

00:38:27   'cause they were just in the,

00:38:28   before the standardization and before PD was finalized,

00:38:33   all the bricks supported all the weird proprietary stuff

00:38:35   because they just wanted to be able to work.

00:38:37   So if you can find one of those old bricks, it should work.

00:38:40   - I think the process of trying to find

00:38:44   an Apple-powered adapter that's from like

00:38:47   before a certain manufacturing year

00:38:49   that doesn't even have probably a separate SKU or anything,

00:38:52   I don't think that process is gonna be worth it.

00:38:54   - Also here is another suggestion from Conrad Poz,

00:38:58   if that's how you pronounce his last name.

00:38:59   My fix for dumb USB-C charge ports

00:39:02   is to buy a cheap USB-A to USB-C adapter

00:39:05   and attach it to the USB-A end of the charge cable.

00:39:08   Then you have a C to A to C cable

00:39:10   that will work with any USB-C charger

00:39:12   even though a C to C cable won't.

00:39:13   I don't know if that would work,

00:39:15   but it sounds like a fun dongle to try.

00:39:17   - Yes, and a few people wrote in to basically say,

00:39:19   'cause you can get cheap dongles that not only do

00:39:22   what we often had in the Apple world since 2016,

00:39:25   which is take a USB-C port and be able to plug

00:39:28   a USB-A device into it, but you also have little dongles

00:39:31   that go the other direction.

00:39:33   take a USB-A port and make a USB-C port out of it

00:39:36   to be able to plug in something with USB-C into a USB-A port

00:39:39   and so if you just stick two of these together,

00:39:42   so it goes C to A to C or you do the same thing

00:39:45   with the cable like what this person was writing and saying,

00:39:47   it will basically make a directional USB-A buffer thing

00:39:52   so that it will work.

00:39:56   The downside is that it'll only obviously work

00:39:58   in that one direction so whatever this cable mess

00:40:00   you're making with this dongle thing

00:40:01   and it'll become directional,

00:40:02   that's fine for many cases.

00:40:04   And also it would be limited if it follows all the specs,

00:40:09   which I hope it does,

00:40:10   it would be limited to only the lower wattages

00:40:13   supported by USB-A charging.

00:40:15   So honestly, that's not a bad idea.

00:40:18   So I think I'm gonna try that maybe,

00:40:21   just to like keep some of these in my travel bag

00:40:23   in case I need them.

00:40:24   But ultimately, many people wrote in to basically say,

00:40:28   Just have a charging brick that has A and C holes

00:40:32   and have some A to C cables.

00:40:34   Which, that's not the answer,

00:40:37   but that is probably the only solution.

00:40:39   Like that's not at all what I was asking for,

00:40:42   but that is probably what I should do.

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00:42:40   our show.

00:42:45   So we have some more reviews and things from the M2 Pro and the M2 Max, most especially

00:42:51   from Max Tech. So John, can you tell me about what was it? That Vadim? How do you pronounce

00:42:57   his name? Do you know?

00:42:58   Vadim, yeah. Yeah. So the Max Tech folks always do tests on these things. I just wanted to

00:43:03   have some concrete support for what we discussed on past episodes with the M2 Pro and Max products.

00:43:09   They are exactly what they appeared to be. The silicon system on a chip is made on the

00:43:16   same process node size as the predecessors.

00:43:19   They're a little bit bigger.

00:43:21   That results in systems that use a little bit more power, they get a little bit hotter,

00:43:27   and the fans run at a little bit higher RPM and that is all borne out by the testing.

00:43:31   Not big amounts, because it is, you know, the M2 Pro and Max are a little bit bigger

00:43:35   than the M1 Pro and Max.

00:43:36   They have a little bit more stuff in them.

00:43:37   They run at higher clock speeds, the fans go at higher RPMs, not ridiculously higher,

00:43:42   Like, you know, numerically it does look higher, but the sound levels seem to be similar.

00:43:46   But you know, that's why I thought the M1 ones, they had so much overhead, but the M2

00:43:54   ones eat some of that overhead.

00:43:55   In exchange for having higher clocks, for getting better performance obviously, it's

00:43:59   exactly what you thought it would be.

00:44:01   So there's no real surprises in there.

00:44:02   The cooling systems are similar in both machines.

00:44:06   The temperatures are higher.

00:44:07   So Apple is pushing the innards of the new M2, Pro M2 Max products harder than they were

00:44:13   pushed in the M1 variants.

00:44:15   They're clock tired, they're allowed to get warmer in the course of normal running.

00:44:21   It doesn't seem to be any excessive throttling any more than there was in the previous ones,

00:44:25   but just FYI, those M2 products are just a little bit more than the M1 ones.

00:44:31   So if you really, really care about being super silent and super cool and you don't

00:44:36   care about that 20% of performance,

00:44:38   buy an M1 Pro or an M1 Max.

00:44:41   - And then tell me about their new Ultra Mega clock speeds.

00:44:46   - Oh yeah, this is, you know, just to put numbers on this.

00:44:48   So the M2 Max was able to clock up to 3.68 gigahertz

00:44:52   on the 16-inch MacBook Pro,

00:44:54   and it got the highest score they've ever seen

00:44:56   for a single-core, breaking 2,000 on Geekbench.

00:44:59   So yeah, for all of that extra noise and extra heat

00:45:02   and all of that, you know,

00:45:03   for that tiny bit of extra heat,

00:45:04   for that tiny bit of extra noise,

00:45:05   to that tiny bit of extra clock speed

00:45:07   and tiny bit of extra power,

00:45:08   you get the highest scores they've ever seen.

00:45:10   So if that's what you care about,

00:45:12   then the M2 ones are the machines for you.

00:45:14   - Marco, you have not ordered any M2 computers as yet?

00:45:17   - I mean, I have the M2 MacBook Air from last summer,

00:45:20   but I don't remember what that was.

00:45:21   But no, none of the M2 Pro and Max machines.

00:45:24   I'm still so incredibly happy with my 16 inch.

00:45:28   It's just wonderful.

00:45:30   And while I know that Xcode is 25% faster

00:45:35   with the new ones and that is tempting,

00:45:37   but it's tempting every time I do a build.

00:45:40   (laughs)

00:45:41   But I'm just so happy with this.

00:45:44   I love that it runs a little bit cooler

00:45:47   and quieter than the new ones.

00:45:49   I still prefer that trade off for now.

00:45:52   So I think I'm gonna skip this generation

00:45:53   and maybe consider, you know, we'll see what happens

00:45:55   with the M3 series of chips or whatever comes after that.

00:45:59   We are scheduled for a process node shrink,

00:46:02   probably with the next, with the M3 generation.

00:46:04   So we'll see what happens there.

00:46:06   Or we'll see if I'm still doing desktop laptop.

00:46:09   Maybe the Mac Pro or whatever will tempt me,

00:46:12   but probably not.

00:46:13   So we'll see what happens.

00:46:14   But no, I'm very happy with my M1.

00:46:16   And I think anybody with an M1 Pro or Macs,

00:46:19   MacBook Pro or Mac Studio or anything,

00:46:22   I think you don't have much reason

00:46:25   to be envious of these new models.

00:46:27   If I was buying new, sure, of course I'd get the newest thing.

00:46:29   If I needed it, sure, I'd get it.

00:46:30   But the ones from a year and a half ago

00:46:34   are still amazing and I'm not motivated to upgrade.

00:46:39   - Yep, I still love my M1 MacBook Pro,

00:46:41   which is what I'm using to talk to you fine folks right now.

00:46:45   Frank Styler had a very interesting piece of feedback.

00:46:49   Frank writes, "As the topic of how do you back up

00:46:51   "your iCloud photos regularly comes up on your show,

00:46:53   "and I've recently started using iCloud more and more

00:46:55   "and did not like any of the available options,

00:46:57   "I decided to take things into my own hands.

00:47:00   "About six months ago, I started working

00:47:01   "on my open source project, iCloud Photo Sync,

00:47:03   that allows you to pull your whole library into the native file system.

00:47:07   There's even a Docker version, so Casey can run it on a Synology, Pi, Mac mini,

00:47:10   et cetera. Once synced, you can use the backup service of your choice

00:47:14   to persist everything securely, because this is a sync program,

00:47:17   not a backup program.

00:47:18   Please note I'm doing this in my free time, and only thanks to the time

00:47:21   during my Christmas break, I was finally able to reach version 0.1.

00:47:25   I am very happy with the project.

00:47:27   I feel the sync algorithm is stable.

00:47:28   However, did not yet encounter a library the size of John's.

00:47:32   In the future, I will be able to support shared photo libraries,

00:47:35   but haven't gotten around to implementing it yet.

00:47:36   So I've not tried this myself, but I went looking

00:47:41   around the GitHub repository.

00:47:44   And it looks pretty slick, just based on the documentation

00:47:47   stuff I looked at.

00:47:48   It looks pretty, pretty slick.

00:47:50   And this is something that I don't

00:47:52   know if I necessarily have a need for this because

00:47:55   of my absolutely bananas ingestion system

00:47:58   that I've been using for years.

00:48:00   But if I wasn't me and I was any normal human, I would definitely be taking a look at this.

00:48:05   Related to this, I didn't put it in here, but we have a bunch of AskATP questions that I didn't

00:48:10   bother putting in because I felt like we'd answer this more recently. But people keep asking,

00:48:13   I want to back up my iCloud photo library, but I don't either don't want to have or don't currently

00:48:19   have a Mac where I can do the option in Apple's Photos app that says download originals just

00:48:25   because they don't have the disk space. Like my library is too big. It can't fit on my Mac,

00:48:28   but can I back it up?

00:48:29   And the answer is no.

00:48:31   You have to have the data to back it up.

00:48:33   But with something like this,

00:48:35   you know, the selection of Macs that you have in your house

00:48:39   no longer need be the limiting factor.

00:48:41   Assuming this thing works -- again, I didn't try it either,

00:48:43   but assuming this thing works,

00:48:44   open source project that runs in a Docker container,

00:48:47   you could rent an instance from Linode

00:48:49   for a couple bucks a month, run this little thing on it,

00:48:51   pull everything down there.

00:48:52   You know, like, there are solutions

00:48:54   that don't involve running a Mac all the time.

00:48:55   People are also asking, "Do I have to leave my user

00:48:57   you're logged in to my account the whole time,

00:48:59   do I have to leave the Photos app open?

00:49:01   The answer to those is no,

00:49:02   you don't need to leave Photos open.

00:49:03   I don't think you need to be logged in,

00:49:05   but I haven't tested that.

00:49:06   But either way, messing with that and worrying

00:49:09   that you're not, that it's not pulling everything down

00:49:13   that you want to be pulled down,

00:49:14   this takes the guesswork out of that.

00:49:16   It's a thing, you run it when you wanna run it,

00:49:18   it syncs the contents, and then you point

00:49:20   whatever backup system you have at that,

00:49:22   and then that backs it up.

00:49:23   It's much more straightforward than trying to divine

00:49:27   the behavior of Apple's completely faceless,

00:49:29   completely uncontrollable sync services,

00:49:31   which we all love to hate,

00:49:33   'cause there's no way to tell it to stop,

00:49:35   no way to tell it to start, no way to say do it now,

00:49:38   no way to check whether it's done anything,

00:49:40   and all these, even if we were to figure out experimentally,

00:49:43   yes, it runs when you're not logged in,

00:49:45   yes, you don't have to run photos,

00:49:46   that can change in a point update, right?

00:49:48   You can't rely on that.

00:49:49   So for backups, it's much better to have something

00:49:51   that you're relatively sure about,

00:49:53   like for example, the feature in Apple Photos

00:49:55   that says Download Original, is that straightforward?

00:49:57   Maybe it doesn't work because of a bug,

00:49:58   but its intention is clear, right?

00:50:00   And it will tell you if it runs out of disk space,

00:50:02   like disk is full, couldn't download the stuff or whatever.

00:50:05   And this command line thing, similarly, if it works,

00:50:08   you have total control over it.

00:50:09   So that's what I would suggest,

00:50:11   not trying to play guess whether it's downloading stuff

00:50:16   when I'm not logged in or whatever.

00:50:17   - All right, and then very briefly,

00:50:20   a handful of listeners reached out

00:50:21   with regard to apps for small kids.

00:50:24   First of all, a few people said Khan Academy Kids, K-H-A-N.

00:50:29   It's kind of like ABC Mouse, but without the fees.

00:50:31   I put that on our kiddo iPad, and Mikayla's

00:50:33   been playing with it a little bit,

00:50:34   and she seems to really like it.

00:50:36   Also for iOS developers, Andy Matuszak--

00:50:39   I believe I pronounced that correctly--

00:50:41   who is formerly one of the big cheeses on UIKit

00:50:45   and did a lot of really great WWDC sessions many years back.

00:50:48   He was at Khan Academy in their R&D department for a few years.

00:50:52   So he is an alumni.

00:50:53   I'm pretty sure he's not there anymore.

00:50:55   And then speaking of ABCmouse, this is from Will,

00:50:59   and Will writes, "With regard to ABCmouse,

00:51:00   several public libraries in the US offer free accounts

00:51:02   if you have a library card.

00:51:03   The Washington DC library is one that comes to mind.

00:51:06   Some of these libraries even offer library cards

00:51:08   to non-residents for fees,

00:51:09   sometimes or sometimes even for free,

00:51:11   for much less than what ABCmouse charges monthly.

00:51:14   By using a library card,

00:51:15   you also get access to all the library's

00:51:17   other online resources as well."

00:51:18   So you might want to check that out

00:51:20   if this is of interest to you.

00:51:23   So gentlemen, apparently we're all gonna be getting

00:51:25   foldable iPads with carbon fiber kickstands next year, baby.

00:51:29   Who's excited?

00:51:31   - 'Cause if there's one thing I wanted carbon fiber on,

00:51:33   it's the kickstand to a tablet,

00:51:35   because you know what it's like

00:51:36   when those kickstands are heavy.

00:51:38   - All right, right.

00:51:39   I don't know what to say about this.

00:51:42   - This is a fun rumor along multiple axes.

00:51:44   So we've talked about foldable devices many times.

00:51:46   There are many foldable devices shipping.

00:51:48   I think they're mostly phones,

00:51:49   although I think there's like some tablet-sized ones.

00:51:51   The magic of screen technology allows us to fold them

00:51:54   in various ways.

00:51:55   So this is a foldable rumor.

00:51:58   It's a carbon fiber rumor.

00:51:59   We always love them because we always want Apple

00:52:01   to experiment with new materials

00:52:03   'cause they've done aluminum glass for a long time.

00:52:04   Aluminum glass are great,

00:52:05   but maybe they could be something better, lighter, stronger,

00:52:08   more durable, all those things.

00:52:11   And then kickstand, let's throw that in too

00:52:13   because the iPad does not really have a kickstand

00:52:15   in the Microsoft Surface sense,

00:52:17   as in like a panel that folds out at various angles, right?

00:52:20   You could say the little triangle origami thing

00:52:23   that you make out of the Apple, whatever they're called,

00:52:25   smart cover things is kind of like a kickstand,

00:52:28   but it's not really.

00:52:29   A kickstand is more like a panel that hinges out

00:52:31   from the back of the thing at various angles.

00:52:34   And so then this rumor is that the kickstand

00:52:37   would be made of carbon fiber.

00:52:38   This rumor doesn't make a lot of sense to me

00:52:42   on multiple axes, but the collection of rumors

00:52:47   related to Apple and foldable stuff

00:52:50   continue to dribble out over the years.

00:52:53   Apple is certainly thinking about that,

00:52:56   experimenting with that,

00:52:58   but I kind of run into the same question

00:53:00   I always have about foldable things is,

00:53:02   what advantage do I as a customer get

00:53:04   for having a foldable thing

00:53:05   other than it being cool and sci-fi-ish?

00:53:07   And it's really difficult for me to answer that question,

00:53:10   especially with something like an iPad,

00:53:12   because iPads are big,

00:53:14   and if I could fold it to be half the size,

00:53:15   now it's half the size, but still pretty big.

00:53:18   In exchange, I've got to deal with all of the things that come along with folding.

00:53:24   Is it going to be creased in the middle?

00:53:26   Is it going to be bulky?

00:53:27   How sharp can that curve be?

00:53:30   There's a bunch of rumors related to that in here as well about who's going to be supplying

00:53:34   the ultra-thin cover glass that could be used on the company's foldable products.

00:53:41   That would be cool.

00:53:42   Instead of having to be plastic, I'd have to be glass.

00:53:46   the radius on that bend or whatever.

00:53:48   Just a lot of information surrounding all of these things here and I still can't make

00:53:53   any sense out of it in terms of the kind of product that I would want to buy.

00:54:01   The pitch has not yet been made to me for why I would want an iPad that folds.

00:54:06   I think the pitch is obvious.

00:54:08   It's that you can have your cake and eat it too.

00:54:10   You can have something that's as pocketable as an iPad mini.

00:54:14   not pocketable, but you know what I mean.

00:54:16   - Well, that's what I'm saying,

00:54:17   like it's not, because it's half the size, right?

00:54:18   If it folds in one direction, it's half, right?

00:54:21   It's twice as thick, but half the length and width, right?

00:54:24   And I don't think with an iPad size thing

00:54:26   that buys me anything.

00:54:27   You've gone from really big to still pretty big, you know?

00:54:31   Like, it doesn't become pocketable.

00:54:33   - I mean, maybe you could fit in a jacket pocket,

00:54:36   maybe a big jacket, I don't like, I don't know.

00:54:39   To me, I have yet to see any foldable screen device

00:54:44   that really nails like, okay, that was worth it.

00:54:48   - The foldable phone that folds vertically,

00:54:50   I don't know, there's a whole bunch of these,

00:54:51   I know Quinn Nelson's got one of them he likes,

00:54:52   or that I can kind of see, I feel like that does,

00:54:56   what we're talking about is like a vertical phone

00:54:58   that folds down so it's more like a little square.

00:55:01   I think that does make it more pocketable,

00:55:04   especially with big phones than when it's vertical,

00:55:06   because phones already fit in your pocket,

00:55:09   and usually the limiting factor for pocketability

00:55:11   is not the thickness, so trading,

00:55:14   I want to be twice as thick,

00:55:15   but then half the length and half the width,

00:55:18   makes sense for a trade-off if pocketability

00:55:21   is your limiting factor.

00:55:23   But in exchange for that with the phone thing,

00:55:25   now you gotta constantly be folding it and unfolding it.

00:55:27   And unlike the flip phones, it's not as cool to do.

00:55:30   Remember when you have flip phones,

00:55:31   you can do the little flippy thing?

00:55:32   - Yeah, let me just flip up my iPad, whack.

00:55:34   - Right, and then you snap it closed

00:55:36   and everything like that.

00:55:37   It's not quite the same.

00:55:38   If you don't think that's a big deal,

00:55:41   we all just take our phones out and look at them

00:55:43   and put them back in,

00:55:44   there's no folding and unfolding process in there.

00:55:45   Adding that step is a complication that you really,

00:55:49   like that trade off,

00:55:50   you really need to be like pocket limited.

00:55:52   Maybe if you're a woman who's constantly stuck buying clothes

00:55:57   that have no pockets on them,

00:55:58   that is your limiting factor, in which case, thumbs up.

00:56:01   But remember, we're not talking about a phone here,

00:56:03   we're talking about an iPad.

00:56:05   iPad is never going to be pocketable,

00:56:07   even if you're wearing overalls,

00:56:08   especially in someone in the room

00:56:09   like 20 inch foldable iPad that's still pretty big once you fold it like no so

00:56:16   here's here's the other angle in this and it's kind of goes into the kickstand

00:56:19   thing what if it folds and the horizontal part could be a keyboard and

00:56:23   then the vertical part is the screen sure I guess I don't know if people are

00:56:28   jazzed to use an iPad with it with an on-screen keyboard in an L shape it

00:56:32   seems like people like using iPads with physical keyboards as like little mini

00:56:36   floppy laptops but on-screen key, you know, you know what I'm saying, like make it like

00:56:40   a laptop but have, you know, one half of the screen be the keyboard part and then, you

00:56:44   know, it could change it to a tablet part and do, you know, like I get how that could

00:56:48   work, but it doesn't appeal to me. It's not solving a problem I feel like I have with

00:56:52   the iPad and it is bringing a bunch of other weird stuff with it.

00:56:55   >> Yeah, I tend to agree.

00:56:56   >> I mean, that's kind of the problem with all foldable stuff you've seen so far is that

00:57:00   it doesn't really seem to solve problems that we have and it might be a fun novelty here

00:57:05   and there, especially maybe on phones, but I just,

00:57:08   I don't see it happening.

00:57:09   Like, suppose we succeed in creating a foldable tablet

00:57:13   or laptop-sized device.

00:57:15   What have we made?

00:57:16   We've made a worse laptop.

00:57:18   Like, in every way it's worse.

00:57:20   It's more fragile, it's more expensive, the keyboard sucks.

00:57:23   Like, I don't, and then what have we gained by that?

00:57:25   Well, you could, I guess, unfold into a flat screen

00:57:28   and have a big screen with no keyboard.

00:57:30   I don't know, I don't know.

00:57:32   I don't know why this is something that we are focused

00:57:35   on so much in the tech world as being some cool new thing

00:57:38   on the horizon.

00:57:39   - I mean, it is cool.

00:57:40   That's why you see stories about it.

00:57:43   - But it's one of those, it's cool in the CES sense.

00:57:47   It's cool in the sense that, wow, that's a fun demo

00:57:49   to see at a trade show.

00:57:51   But it's not a product you'd actually want to live with

00:57:53   for the most part for most people.

00:57:55   - Some people do like it with phones.

00:57:56   So let me just show you some of the highlights

00:57:57   of how all over the place these rumors are, right?

00:57:59   So this is Ming-Chi Kuo saying that he was, quote,

00:58:03   positive that the foldable device will arrive in 2024 but did not provide a more specific

00:58:08   time frame. Then another bit of rumor here from CCS Insight says that Apple plans to use a foldable

00:58:14   iPad in 2024 as a practice run for foldable technology before adopting it on the iPhone.

00:58:19   Again, I think a foldable iPhone makes way more sense than a foldable iPad. Doing a weird product

00:58:25   as a practice run doesn't seem like, you know, a thing, but whatever. And this is Ross Young talking

00:58:32   talking about the 20 inch size.

00:58:34   Young expects the device to hit the market

00:58:36   a lot later in 2026 or 2027.

00:58:39   Well, that's a daring rumor 'cause it's way out

00:58:40   in the future.

00:58:41   Then LG with the ultra thin cover glass.

00:58:44   Ross Young said he is expecting multiple OLED iPads in 2024.

00:58:49   Now we're talking.

00:58:50   I've wanted an OLED on the iPad for a long time.

00:58:52   That has nothing to do with foldable.

00:58:53   That just has to do with a higher quality screen

00:58:55   with really good blacks.

00:58:56   But Ross Young said he's heard nothing

00:58:59   about a foldable iPad in the same year.

00:59:01   And here's another update from Mark Gurman.

00:59:04   He says that he has not heard anything

00:59:05   about a foldable iPad in 2024,

00:59:07   which he expects to be the year of the OLED iPad Pro models

00:59:10   and spec bumps for the entry-level iPad and iPad mini.

00:59:12   So I want to believe the more conservative rumors

00:59:17   that just say OLED iPads are coming,

00:59:19   'cause that is a straightforward upgrade to iPads

00:59:23   with a better screen, something that I really wanted

00:59:25   'cause I watched tons of TV on my iPad

00:59:27   and an OLED screen will be better.

00:59:29   I also kind of believe that Apple has been working

00:59:33   on foldable iPhones for a long time.

00:59:35   It would be irresponsible for them

00:59:36   not to be looking into that.

00:59:38   There are foldable phones on the market

00:59:40   and there have been for a long time

00:59:41   and some people like them for the reasons I described before.

00:59:43   You gotta at least look into it on the iPhone.

00:59:45   Maybe it'll just be one model that's foldable.

00:59:47   Maybe it'll be like the return of the mini

00:59:49   is like a thing that folds up or whatever.

00:59:51   Sure, thumbs up.

00:59:52   Foldable iPad rumors

00:59:53   and especially the carbon fiber kickstand.

00:59:56   I honestly have no idea where that's coming from

00:59:58   but I suppose stranger things have happened.

01:00:01   - Yeah, I think it was on upgrade

01:00:03   that Jason and Mike had said a couple of interesting things.

01:00:07   First of all, where is the fold?

01:00:09   And I forget the terminology for this,

01:00:10   but I think they described it as innie or outie.

01:00:13   So if the thing folds like a book, right,

01:00:16   and the display is on the inside,

01:00:18   then what do you do when it's folded up, right?

01:00:22   And this is what you were talking about

01:00:23   with the phone as well.

01:00:23   Like you have to unfold it to use it.

01:00:25   That doesn't seem terribly useful.

01:00:27   But then if it's the other direction where the display is,

01:00:29   but if it's in the, anyone though,

01:00:31   that's the way where you could use it as a laptop with a screen keyboard.

01:00:34   That's like you would keep it open in L shape and you would have it in front of

01:00:38   you. And now the fold is letting you use it as a mini laptop,

01:00:41   kind of type deal with a kickstand behind it.

01:00:43   Right. Whereas if you go out,

01:00:45   even that potentially means that you can use it folded, but that,

01:00:49   that still it's basically you have two, two modes,

01:00:53   completely folded or completely unfolded.

01:00:55   Yeah. And one screen is like, presumably you're touching it with your hands.

01:00:58   So it would have to be do like palm rejection on the side. That's not facing you.

01:01:01   So I don't know. I, and the other thing they said, maybe it was Jason,

01:01:05   but I don't remember for sure that I thought was really astute is this feels

01:01:09   like one of those things. If it's true, this feels like one of those things.

01:01:13   And actually this is also true of the headset,

01:01:15   which we'll probably be getting to in just a moment.

01:01:17   It feels like one of those things that we're just not seeing it. And Apple will,

01:01:22   you know, slap something on the table table and say, Oh,

01:01:24   This is it.

01:01:25   This is why you want this.

01:01:26   And all of us will be, oh, oh, yes, I do want that.

01:01:29   Yes, please.

01:01:30   I'll take three.

01:01:32   Or just as likely, Apple will never release this product

01:01:34   because they will look at it and say,

01:01:35   there is no reason for you to want this product.

01:01:37   So never mind.

01:01:38   But eventually, we'll get a foldable font.

01:01:40   Yep, yep, yep.

01:01:41   No, I agree with that.

01:01:42   So I agree with what you're saying, John, especially

01:01:45   that I don't get what the--

01:01:47   not the catch, but the draw is.

01:01:50   I don't understand why I want this in my life.

01:01:53   But, you know, Apple's gotta throw stuff against the wall,

01:01:56   see what sticks, and if this is something

01:01:58   they're throwing against the wall, then power to 'em.

01:02:01   - I think they should throw it against the wall

01:02:02   in Apple Park and only show it to us if it sticks.

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01:04:02   - All right, so let's talk headset.

01:04:07   Apple's Reality Pro AR VR goggles.

01:04:10   As Jon put in the show notes, I think,

01:04:14   what is it good for?

01:04:16   And we don't know, we really don't know.

01:04:18   But the information has information.

01:04:21   They're saying in short that,

01:04:23   "Hey, you're gonna be able to write apps and stuff

01:04:26   "without even writing code.

01:04:27   "It's gonna be amazing!"

01:04:29   What?

01:04:31   - Yeah, I think you should read this quote

01:04:33   because I think this is directly from the information

01:04:35   which broke this story.

01:04:37   9to5Mac summarized it,

01:04:40   but I always like to try to go back to the source

01:04:42   to see what did they actually say?

01:04:45   because the 9 to 5 max story reads nonsensely.

01:04:48   Non coders will be able to write VR apps using Siri.

01:04:51   What?

01:04:53   - I can't even play music using Siri reliably.

01:04:55   Like how is that gonna work?

01:04:57   Yeah, I literally yesterday morning,

01:04:59   going downstairs after breakfast.

01:05:01   Hey Siri, stop.

01:05:03   It's playing music.

01:05:04   Wait, wait, hmm.

01:05:06   Wait, wait, delay.

01:05:09   One sec, wait.

01:05:10   The music's still playing this whole time.

01:05:11   Wait, wait.

01:05:13   Oh, something went wrong.

01:05:14   blasting music again, like it's just,

01:05:15   it can't even stop reliably, like for God's sake,

01:05:18   what are we, how are we going to write apps using Siri

01:05:22   when Siri still, what is it, 12 years after it was unveiled,

01:05:26   still can't do the basics reliably?

01:05:29   - Just before I came to record,

01:05:31   we were in the living room in the other room

01:05:33   where all my various devices listened to me is,

01:05:36   and we were, we wanted to know what year

01:05:40   the original Superman movie was released,

01:05:42   and I made my guess, which turned out to be right,

01:05:44   thank you very much.

01:05:46   But then of course, the other thing,

01:05:47   no one believes me, they need to double check

01:05:49   with the internet, right?

01:05:50   So I did my normal bake-off.

01:05:53   And I'm not good at speaking to devices,

01:05:55   I gave it a weird, strangely structured sentence.

01:05:58   I think I said something, and I always try Google first,

01:06:00   'cause it's gonna be the good one,

01:06:01   and I said to the Google thing,

01:06:04   what year was the original Superman movie

01:06:06   starring Christopher Reeve released in?

01:06:09   And that is a weirdly structured sentence,

01:06:10   'cause I don't get to the released in part till the end,

01:06:12   and I say like original movie,

01:06:14   and like it's, I don't just say like,

01:06:17   what was the year of release of,

01:06:18   or when was, you know, like his release is at the end,

01:06:20   and you gotta connect all this stuff.

01:06:22   It nailed it.

01:06:23   It just, it gave me the answer.

01:06:24   It said 1978.

01:06:26   That's like, that's what Google said, right?

01:06:27   And I, you know, later on, I did a second question,

01:06:30   which is, oh, how old is Chris Novoselic?

01:06:34   Do you know what the Google device said to me?

01:06:36   57.

01:06:38   It just said 57, it didn't say,

01:06:40   according to the page of Wikipedia, blah, blah, blah.

01:06:42   It just told me the answer like a human would.

01:06:44   - Imagine that. - Anyway,

01:06:45   I also asked both of these questions

01:06:48   in pretty much the same way to my original HomePod.

01:06:50   - Oh no. (laughs)

01:06:51   - Fell on its face.

01:06:53   The first one, it's like, the webpage, blah, blah, blah,

01:06:56   says, and it started reading a bunch of crap about Superman.

01:06:59   Didn't get the date, and I was like, all right, stop.

01:07:01   Right, no, and it did, to its credit, it did stop.

01:07:04   And then I asked about Chris Novoselic,

01:07:06   and it started reading, oh what the, I forget,

01:07:09   it started reading some other webpage that was not relevant.

01:07:12   It was just like, oh for two, as usual,

01:07:15   Google's voice assistant's still a champion.

01:07:17   I was particularly impressed about how it just said 57.

01:07:22   Like, yes, I don't need you to, I don't need a preamble,

01:07:25   I don't need a postamble, I don't need to be addressed,

01:07:27   I just want the answer.

01:07:28   Oh, and by the way, the answer was real, real fast.

01:07:31   Apple, what are you doing?

01:07:33   Anyway, let's write some VR apps.

01:07:35   - Wee!

01:07:36   Whoever at Apple is in charge of Siri this year,

01:07:41   'cause it seems to be a bit of a revolving door over there,

01:07:43   I would love for them to just spend one day

01:07:46   in my house using my HomePods, just please.

01:07:48   However you think Siri's working out there in California

01:07:53   on whatever hardware you're using,

01:07:54   I urge you, come here to New York

01:07:56   and use it on my HomePods and tell me everything's all right.

01:07:59   Just try doing anything on my HomePods for one day.

01:08:03   - By the way, that's another,

01:08:04   Like I watched a bunch of the new HomePod reviews

01:08:06   and everything.

01:08:07   I mean, obviously we're weird and niche or whatever,

01:08:10   but I was amazed at how few of them,

01:08:13   pretty much none of them made any mention.

01:08:16   I mean, maybe they mentioned in the specs like,

01:08:18   oh, this has X processor and the old one had Y processor,

01:08:20   but none of them talked about why do I care about that?

01:08:23   Why do I care that the new HomePod has a different processor?

01:08:26   Like, was there a weakness of the old pod

01:08:28   related to the processor that might,

01:08:29   that might, you know, like they didn't test response time.

01:08:32   They didn't say it's great that it's faster.

01:08:33   They didn't check whether it responds fast.

01:08:36   They didn't do any of that.

01:08:37   It's like, I know Apple doesn't talk about specs or whatever,

01:08:39   but I feel like one of the things we hope,

01:08:41   and Marco will tell us, is an improvement in the new things.

01:08:44   It has a new processor, and it will be faster,

01:08:46   and the comparison point, like Marco said on the last show,

01:08:49   is the Mini, which has the same processor

01:08:51   that seems to be, you know,

01:08:52   none of the reviews did any of that.

01:08:54   It's like it didn't even exist to them.

01:08:55   It was very disappointing.

01:08:56   - Well, I feel like the HomePod is a product,

01:08:59   I may be going back to this for a minute,

01:09:00   the HomePod is a product,

01:09:02   The people who get Apple review units,

01:09:04   and all the YouTubers and the big publications

01:09:06   and everything, these are tech reviewers.

01:09:09   This is not an area of their incredible specialty or care.

01:09:13   This is an accessory product.

01:09:15   They review the HomePod the same way they would review

01:09:18   an iPad Smart Cover.

01:09:20   Like, okay, I'm gonna try this, it'll be cool.

01:09:22   But how comprehensively are you gonna look at it?

01:09:25   - A lot of the channels did compare it to the competitors.

01:09:27   Here's how it compares to the Amazon things,

01:09:29   here's how it compares to the Google things.

01:09:30   And I think if you're making that comparison,

01:09:32   one of the things you test is,

01:09:33   hey, when I ask it a question,

01:09:34   how long does it take to give me an answer

01:09:36   and how well does it answer those questions?

01:09:38   I've seen a lot of reviews of bake-offs

01:09:40   like I do at my house all the time

01:09:42   of like ask device A, ask device B, say how they weld.

01:09:44   But response time, maybe it's just a sore point for us

01:09:47   'cause we're impatient,

01:09:48   but I feel like that is one of,

01:09:50   a new home pod arrives

01:09:51   and that's one of the things I care about

01:09:52   because all the past home pods

01:09:54   haven't been real snappy with the answers.

01:09:56   And so if a new home pod arrives and it has a new SOC

01:09:59   that is more updated and hopefully as fast

01:10:03   as it was in the Mini, that's a thing I would test

01:10:06   and mention in my review, but these guys just,

01:10:08   anyway, whatever, I'm a bag on YouTube reviewers.

01:10:10   It's great that they got review units.

01:10:12   - Yeah, no, it really, I think also a big part of this

01:10:16   is that Siri has been so bad and slow and unreliable

01:10:21   for so long that it's kind of given now.

01:10:24   - They've just given up on it.

01:10:26   - Yeah, and nobody, when you're reviewing a product

01:10:28   relies so heavily on Siri as the home pods do, you don't even spend much time talking

01:10:33   about how crappy and slow and mediocre Siri is because everyone just knows that and we've

01:10:37   just given up expecting anything more.

01:10:39   Like that's, again, like I, oh God, I wish, I hope, I really, really hope that whoever

01:10:46   the current leader of Siri is this week actually thinks it's as bad as it is because like it's,

01:10:52   if they know it's bad, then that gives us hope that, okay, maybe they'll, maybe they're

01:10:56   really gonna rethink this, maybe they're gonna really put a lot behind this, 'cause like,

01:10:59   obviously like Google and even Amazon are way better at it in so many ways. So it's

01:11:04   like, obviously like it's possible to do well, it's been possible to do well for quite some

01:11:09   time now, and so, but if Apple knows it sucks, then great, then that's step one, is learning

01:11:16   you have a problem, and admitting, hey, we can do better. But I honestly wonder, like,

01:11:22   Does Apple think this is good?

01:11:24   'Cause obviously all their PR always says how good it is,

01:11:26   and they have to, of course, but internally,

01:11:28   behind closed doors, do they know how crappy Siri is?

01:11:32   Do they know that it can be better?

01:11:35   I'm not sure they do.

01:11:36   I don't know if we've seen enough evidence

01:11:38   that they actually believe that

01:11:40   or have any idea how to make it better.

01:11:43   - I should send them some of my free Google Home minis.

01:11:47   Do they just have them sitting next to their HomePods?

01:11:50   The next time you wanna know when the movie

01:11:51   released or how old a celebrity is ask both see how it goes for you well I

01:11:55   think Marco you said three different things you know does Apple know that

01:11:59   Siri is trash I think they do it wouldn't entirely surprise me if they

01:12:04   don't but I think they do what were the other two I do can they fix it that

01:12:10   unless convinced about because they've had a long time to fix it and I don't

01:12:15   know if they're capable of it and shoot I forgot what the third thing was that's

01:12:18   all right. But whenever I've talked to engineers at Apple, now granted I've not

01:12:22   talked to any Siri engineers, possibly because they don't exist, I don't know,

01:12:26   but one way or the other, I've never talked to Siri engineers, but you know,

01:12:31   general rank-and-file Apple, you know, software engineers, they claim, and I

01:12:36   believe them, that they are their own biggest critics. That they make John look

01:12:40   like a pushover, you know, in that they know in and out how garbage so much of

01:12:45   stuff is. Now, they also make excuses for it, much like they make excuses for radar

01:12:50   and feedback assistant because they know how the sausage is made. They know why, you know,

01:12:54   a stage manager sucks. And they, they might even know why, why Siri sucks because, oh, well,

01:13:00   we don't have the, this, that, and the other thing, or, oh, you know, corporate politics or,

01:13:04   oh, this or that. But they know that it sucks. Like that's not up for grabs. They know, they know.

01:13:10   But again, the question is, can they, can they do anything about it and, or do they care enough

01:13:15   enough to do anything about it.

01:13:16   I don't know the answer to those questions.

01:13:18   You were saying that rank and file employees know, but as you go up the org chart, it becomes

01:13:22   more and more important for you not to know that.

01:13:25   Because when you have to say, "I'm in charge of Siri.

01:13:28   It's time for my annual review.

01:13:29   How'd you do?"

01:13:30   "We're too great.

01:13:31   We made huge improvements to Siri, and Siri's doing great."

01:13:34   It is good for your career to actually believe that Siri is doing great, because then you

01:13:38   can convincingly say that Siri is doing great so you can get your raise and your new stock

01:13:42   options.

01:13:43   is it the rank and file when you're just down there,

01:13:45   you could have a more clear-eyed view of, you know,

01:13:47   Siri's bad because it doesn't have the resources

01:13:50   or it was moved from X department to Y

01:13:51   or everybody quit or whatever.

01:13:54   - Yep, that's completely fair.

01:13:56   - Anyway, VR headset.

01:13:57   Should read this passage from the information

01:14:01   about making apps so that, so here's what they say.

01:14:04   With the software tools, Apple hopes that even people

01:14:07   who don't know computer code could tell the headset

01:14:09   via the Siri voice assistant to build an AR app

01:14:12   that could then be made available via Apple's App Store

01:14:14   for others to download.

01:14:15   So that is quite a claim.

01:14:16   It's saying not only will you be able to do something

01:14:19   with Siri that makes something that could be considered

01:14:21   an app, but then you could then put them

01:14:22   on the App Store as well.

01:14:24   The tool, for example, could allow users to build up an app

01:14:27   with virtual animals moving around a room

01:14:29   and over or around real life objects

01:14:31   without the need to design the animal from scratch,

01:14:33   programs animations and calculate its movements

01:14:35   in 3D space and so on and so forth.

01:14:36   And 9to5Mac notes, this is similar to features

01:14:39   already offered by headsets for Meta,

01:14:41   The Quest headsets, for example, have an app called Horizon Worlds that allows users to

01:14:44   build 3D environments without coding.

01:14:46   Additionally, features similar to this have already appeared on the iPhone as part of

01:14:49   Apple's other augmented reality and virtual reality work.

01:14:51   So this is much less interesting than the story makes it seem.

01:14:55   It's like, okay, you can make a thing in AR/VR out of a bunch of pieces that are premade

01:15:00   and you assemble them, and that could, in theory, be packaged up in a few standardized

01:15:05   ways into an app that you could then put in an app store.

01:15:08   of reminds me of the ebook plague of the early days of the App Store where it's real easy

01:15:11   to package up an ebook in an iOS app and put it on the App Store and make some quick money

01:15:17   before Apple realizes this is a terrible idea and bans the practice.

01:15:20   Only now it's Apple doing it by saying, "Hey, make a thing with a bunch of animals that

01:15:24   walk around your living room and upload it to the App Store."

01:15:27   All right, sure, whatever.

01:15:30   This is leading us to the title of the section that Casey tried to sing and I think…

01:15:35   failed miserably

01:15:37   Why what what is this AR VR headset good for?

01:15:41   Again, what we're not we're not talking about a pair of glasses that you wear that can project things into them because there's a million awesome

01:15:48   Uses for that we're talking about a headset a thing that is pretty big pretty bulky

01:15:54   Has a lot of computing power

01:15:57   Has peripherals has like a battery which may or may not be clipped to your belt which was a style at the time

01:16:05   It's like, why would I want to buy, it may be expensive, why would I want to buy this?

01:16:10   What is it good for?

01:16:11   Here's from Bloomberg.

01:16:13   People familiar with Apple's content strategy for the headset say, "Apple executives are

01:16:16   emphasizing health and wellness, including proposals for AR apps that assist with meditation

01:16:20   and exercise.

01:16:22   One early AR demo allowed users to sit inside a Zen garden."

01:16:25   All right, sure.

01:16:26   "Another Apple demo for executives allows users to walk through the Dr. Seuss book,

01:16:30   'Oh, the Places You'll Go,' by blending its fantastical environment with the real world."

01:16:33   All right.

01:16:34   - All right, these all sound like cool tech demos.

01:16:37   Still waiting to figure out what's gonna make me

01:16:42   wanna buy this big headset

01:16:44   and what's gonna make me want to strap it to my head

01:16:48   to pick up potentially the two things

01:16:50   that I might have to hold in my hand to make it work.

01:16:54   Gruber took a shot at it and went through,

01:16:55   'cause he's had the same question for a long time

01:16:57   and he wrote a big article about it

01:16:58   called the billions dollar question.

01:17:00   What is it good for?

01:17:03   He came up, so here's his summary.

01:17:06   What are the intended use cases for Apple's headset?

01:17:09   After you buy it, unbox it and power it on,

01:17:12   what are you supposed to do with it?

01:17:13   What features and experiences will seem worth spending

01:17:16   a thousand or even thousands of dollars?

01:17:18   I ponder this every day and I come up short.

01:17:20   And so in his article, he lists everything he could think of

01:17:24   and I'm just gonna give the bullet points here

01:17:25   and you can read his article

01:17:26   to see what he has to say about them.

01:17:28   The things he came up with is,

01:17:29   well, you might use it for is games, movies and TV,

01:17:33   virtual meetings with FaceTime-like calls,

01:17:36   personal computing via projected displays.

01:17:39   And then he says, I can't think of any other use cases

01:17:42   for VR XR headset.

01:17:44   I cannot believe that such a headset would be intended

01:17:46   for wearing around as you go about daily life,

01:17:47   augmenting the real world with virtual displays

01:17:49   and ambient contextual informations.

01:17:51   That's what we need AR glasses for, not AR goggles.

01:17:54   And you can read his summaries of descriptions

01:17:57   of why he thinks games, movies, TV, virtual meetings,

01:18:01   and personal computing with projected displays

01:18:03   probably aren't going to make him want to use this thing.

01:18:06   And there's probably more items that you can hit,

01:18:08   and I can look at each one of those items and say,

01:18:10   well, if Apple did a good job of games,

01:18:13   that would be a reason.

01:18:14   If Apple did a really good job of virtual meetings,

01:18:17   that might be a reason.

01:18:18   But again, read the Gruber article

01:18:20   to see all the countervailing forces.

01:18:21   I don't think I have to describe the countervailing forces

01:18:23   when it comes to Apple and games.

01:18:25   We know about those.

01:18:26   Virtual meetings, the countervailing forces

01:18:28   are like Microsoft and Google, also pretty big forces.

01:18:32   Anyway, I thought it was a good article

01:18:33   and I thought it was a good time to revisit the idea of like,

01:18:36   what are we supposed to use this thing for?

01:18:39   And finally, the reason we're talking about this now

01:18:42   for the umpteenth time is that the rumors are heating up

01:18:44   about Apple's AR VR goggle thing.

01:18:48   Gurman, his latest thing, he said that,

01:18:51   is reportedly set to be announced sometime this spring

01:18:53   with launch consumers happening later this fall.

01:18:55   So around WWDC-ish time,

01:18:58   rumors say Apple may actually be ready to release this thing.

01:19:01   This thing that, the earlier rumor was that it might

01:19:03   actually be released before the end of last year,

01:19:05   obviously that didn't happen.

01:19:06   But if they're ready to release something,

01:19:09   the mystery of, as Gruber says,

01:19:11   when I take it out of the box,

01:19:13   what am I supposed to use it for?

01:19:14   That mystery kind of remains.

01:19:16   - Yeah, I keep thinking back to previous Apple

01:19:20   new platform launch warmups,

01:19:23   like when we were about to get the iPad or the Apple Watch.

01:19:30   we kind of knew ahead of time, like,

01:19:32   oh, hey, they're working on something.

01:19:32   Even the phone, like, we kind of knew

01:19:34   they were working on a phone.

01:19:35   That was, I think, a special case,

01:19:36   'cause that really blew us away.

01:19:37   - Or even the Apple TV.

01:19:39   People don't remember that was going to launch as ITV.

01:19:42   People think, oh, there was never any question

01:19:43   about what you're gonna use the Apple TV for.

01:19:45   If you remember what the original ITV thing

01:19:47   was intended to do versus what the little puck does,

01:19:49   it's similar, but kind of like

01:19:51   all the other products you've named,

01:19:53   the what you're supposed to use this product for

01:19:56   actually has evolved over time,

01:19:58   as the market has decided, no,

01:20:00   this is what we wanna do with it.

01:20:01   So for example, DVRing things from broadcast television

01:20:05   is not a feature that Apple went with

01:20:08   for their TV connected boxes, but it could've been

01:20:10   because the technical capabilities were there,

01:20:12   it just turned out that's not what the market wanted.

01:20:14   - Yeah, and like, when you look at these

01:20:17   previous product launches, you know,

01:20:19   I'll do, look at the iPad for instance.

01:20:21   When Apple was rumored to, the iPhone was already going

01:20:24   for a couple of years by that point,

01:20:25   they were rumored to be doing a tablet.

01:20:28   And the rumors ended up being not too far off.

01:20:30   Everyone kind of knew, like, okay,

01:20:32   it's gonna be like a big iPhone.

01:20:33   They got the price wrong famously,

01:20:35   but for the most part, we were wondering,

01:20:38   and at the time, there were other tablets that predated it,

01:20:42   and they weren't very compelling.

01:20:44   They had a market, and there were a couple

01:20:47   different types of tablets.

01:20:48   There were the PC World's kind of tablets,

01:20:50   which were actually usually convertible laptops

01:20:52   where you'd flip the screen around,

01:20:54   and those did okay in certain industries.

01:20:57   And then they had, remember right before the iPad,

01:20:59   they had the Crunch Pad.

01:21:01   - The Crunch Pad.

01:21:03   No one should remember the Crunch Pad, please.

01:21:05   - There were some other dumb startup

01:21:07   that was like $1,000 for their tablet too,

01:21:10   and it was way worse.

01:21:11   - Yeah, one of the things about the iPad launch

01:21:13   that's interesting to remember

01:21:14   is kind of like the headset launch.

01:21:16   Before Apple has launched a product entry into a space

01:21:20   is the time of, kind of like Gruber was covering,

01:21:23   the time of infinite possibilities, right?

01:21:26   There are lots of things this could be.

01:21:27   And people's minds go wild.

01:21:29   Well, this could be X, this could be Y.

01:21:31   But there's no actual product yet.

01:21:32   We haven't seen what Apple has released,

01:21:34   so we don't know what they're gonna do.

01:21:35   But we have all these ideas that could be possible.

01:21:37   One of the most fantastical ones around the iPad

01:21:39   was, if you remember this one,

01:21:41   the iPad's gonna save newspapers.

01:21:42   Do you remember that one?

01:21:43   (laughing)

01:21:45   Right? - Oh my word.

01:21:45   Whoops. - It's gonna save magazines

01:21:46   and newspapers 'cause there's a business that existed

01:21:49   for lots of the lives of people

01:21:51   who were writing articles at the time.

01:21:52   Old people remember magazines and newspapers.

01:21:55   and they're dying and Apple's gonna come up with a tablet.

01:21:58   So one thing this tablet could do

01:22:00   is it could save magazines and newspapers

01:22:02   by making a modern digital equivalent

01:22:04   and all those newspaper reporters and magazine writers

01:22:06   will keep their jobs and their pensions

01:22:09   and still continue to be paid $20 a word

01:22:12   and whatever the, you know, like that didn't happen really

01:22:15   in the way that people expected.

01:22:17   But before there is a product,

01:22:19   there's lots of fantastical ideas about what it could be.

01:22:22   And then the other analogy,

01:22:23   which I'm sure you're gonna get to eventually, Marco,

01:22:25   was the Apple Watch where Apple itself had lots of very

01:22:29   fantastical ideas of what the product could be,

01:22:31   even when it was launching it.

01:22:33   But we eventually narrowed it down.

01:22:35   - Yeah.

01:22:36   But going back to the iPad for a second.

01:22:38   So in the lead up to the iPad launch,

01:22:41   we were able to look at other tablets on the market

01:22:45   that were in kind of moderate success,

01:22:48   maybe in certain areas, but hadn't really taken over

01:22:51   the world by storm or anything like that.

01:22:52   But we were able to look at other tablets in the market

01:22:54   and see, well, tablets have the following shortcomings.

01:22:58   They're a little bit unwieldy to have in a pocket

01:23:02   or even most bags or anything, but they're still useful.

01:23:06   They're hard to have text input on.

01:23:10   We haven't really solved the tablet text input problem.

01:23:13   And for all these problems that we would think of,

01:23:15   we would say, well, I bet Apple has a plan,

01:23:18   'cause Apple has such a good track record now at this point.

01:23:21   I bet they have a plan to solve things like text input.

01:23:25   And then the iPad came out and all those things

01:23:28   that we thought Apple surely has a plan,

01:23:30   we can't think of it.

01:23:31   Well it turns out they didn't have a plan

01:23:32   for any of those things.

01:23:33   They just tried to do a really good job

01:23:34   with whatever they could do within those constraints.

01:23:37   And what the iPad was, was a really good tablet

01:23:41   that was the same type of thing

01:23:43   that we'd already been imagining,

01:23:45   just a good implementation of it.

01:23:47   So the Apple Watch comes along.

01:23:48   Again, the rumors are that Apple's about to make

01:23:52   some kind of smartwatch, great.

01:23:53   By this point we kinda knew their MO.

01:23:55   We were like, okay, it's probably gonna be

01:23:56   like a tiny iPhone on your wrist.

01:23:57   And yeah, it pretty much was that.

01:23:59   That, we pretty much nailed that.

01:24:00   But everyone's like, oh, the smartwatch

01:24:03   is gonna replace your phone.

01:24:05   In a few years, you won't even be buying an iPhone anymore.

01:24:08   And here we are many years later,

01:24:10   and we're all still buying iPhones.

01:24:13   And the Apple Watch, while it has good attributes

01:24:18   and good uses and it's a good product in itself,

01:24:21   it really hasn't overcome the fundamental limitations

01:24:24   of smartwatches.

01:24:25   You still only have to use it one-handed

01:24:27   because naturally it's strapped to your other hand

01:24:29   and your hand doesn't bend that way.

01:24:31   It still has a very small display,

01:24:33   very limited battery power compared to a phone,

01:24:36   and very limited computing resources as a result

01:24:39   of its small size and limited power budget

01:24:41   and everything else.

01:24:42   There are certain things that the smartwatch

01:24:43   just can't really do because of its physical realities.

01:24:47   And so, again, there were other smartwatches

01:24:49   that came before the Apple Watch,

01:24:50   and Apple came out and did something within the realm

01:24:54   of what we already knew to be plausible,

01:24:55   just a good job of it, eventually.

01:24:57   They found their way,

01:25:00   threw a little bit of stumbling at the beginning there,

01:25:02   but they found their way, it's now a good product.

01:25:04   By the way, I hate to,

01:25:06   I already admitted, I admitted last week

01:25:08   that Gruber was right about his stupid gloves,

01:25:11   his stupid thin North Face gloves.

01:25:14   I now have to admit he's right about one more thing.

01:25:16   This is almost as bad as when John's right about something.

01:25:20   When the Apple Watch first came out,

01:25:22   there were two leather bands for the large,

01:25:25   there were three leather bands.

01:25:26   There was the modern buckle,

01:25:27   which was only available for the small size,

01:25:29   still around today.

01:25:30   Then there was the classic leather strap,

01:25:34   which they don't make anymore.

01:25:35   That was just basically a regular black leather strap,

01:25:39   like any other watch with a buckle and everything like that.

01:25:41   They stopped making that a few years in.

01:25:43   And then they had this thing called the leather loop.

01:25:45   And the leather loop was kind of like the Milanese loop

01:25:48   where you have like, where like the strap is like

01:25:50   one long piece kind of goes through a buckle on one side

01:25:54   and then like the excess then folds back over

01:25:56   and magnets to itself.

01:25:58   And I had such high hopes for that leather loop

01:26:01   and I tried my own in a store and I was so disappointed

01:26:03   by how just rock hard it was, it felt like a plastic loop.

01:26:08   - Is this story leading to you touching

01:26:10   a used, warm John Gruber watch strap?

01:26:13   - No.

01:26:14   - Okay, go ahead.

01:26:16   - He told me, oh, you gotta check out the new ones.

01:26:19   They have since, I don't know when,

01:26:21   I think a few years ago, they have since replaced

01:26:24   the old leather loop with a new one called the leather link,

01:26:28   which is now a two-piece, and one of them just magnets

01:26:31   over the other one, so there's no more loop and bend back.

01:26:33   And however they've made this one differently

01:26:36   materials-wise, it is so much nicer

01:26:39   than the old leather loop.

01:26:40   It is by far the nicest looking strap for the Apple Watch

01:26:45   if you're trying to dress it up

01:26:48   that also feels really comfortable.

01:26:51   It is a really nice, soft, pliable, practical band.

01:26:55   I ended up trying one in a store, I bought it.

01:26:59   It is super nice.

01:27:00   So anyway, if you're trying to,

01:27:02   it's because it's leather,

01:27:05   obviously you have some animal concerns there,

01:27:07   but also it doesn't deal well with things like moisture.

01:27:10   I wouldn't work out in this band if I could help it.

01:27:14   But if I was say like going on a trip somewhere

01:27:18   and I wanted to just bring the Apple Watch

01:27:19   and have it be like a little bit dressed up

01:27:21   so I could kinda look a little bit nice on my trip,

01:27:23   no question I'd use this band, the new Leather Link.

01:27:25   It's so much nicer than you think it is.

01:27:28   And it's much softer than you think it would be

01:27:30   based on the old leather loop thing.

01:27:33   And I think it looks pretty good

01:27:34   and it's nicely adjustable and everything.

01:27:35   So anyway, big thumbs up for that.

01:27:37   Anyway, going back to where we were,

01:27:39   thanks a lot John Gruber,

01:27:41   going back, as you look at the AR headset now,

01:27:46   we're in that kind of lead up period

01:27:49   where there are other, or not AR, sorry,

01:27:51   the mixed reality headset,

01:27:52   'cause it seems like we're not near AR yet.

01:27:55   So there are other products in this realm

01:27:58   that we can look at, most notably the Quest line.

01:28:01   We can see that and we can see

01:28:05   they are a successful product line,

01:28:07   People do buy them, people do watch video in them,

01:28:10   they do play games in them.

01:28:12   I don't think a lot of people use them

01:28:13   as second screen to their computers,

01:28:14   'cause I think they're just too low resolution.

01:28:17   And obviously the Apple product is rumored

01:28:19   to be pretty high spec'd in that realm,

01:28:21   so maybe it can be better.

01:28:23   And Meta does have their, whatever the,

01:28:28   is it Horizon Workrooms?

01:28:30   Whatever the thing is that Ben Thompson always talks about

01:28:32   as being like--

01:28:33   - Virtual meetings, let's sit around a virtual table

01:28:35   and stare at our virtual faces and talk with each other.

01:28:38   - Yeah, which almost everyone who's tried it

01:28:40   basically says, "Yeah, it's pretty cool.

01:28:42   "I don't wanna do it, but it's pretty cool."

01:28:45   And everyone says, "Yeah, if everyone bought one of these

01:28:48   "and we could do this all day and it was comfortable,

01:28:51   "then yes, our meetings would be better."

01:28:53   But that's a lot of ifs.

01:28:54   - Yeah, well, I mean, the last part is the key part there.

01:28:56   Yeah, well, everyone buying them is like,

01:28:58   "Okay, well, then what if your work buys and that's fine?"

01:29:00   But being comfortable, that's where you start getting

01:29:02   to technical limitations of these things are not small.

01:29:05   There is a, not a social cost,

01:29:08   but there is a weirdness of strapping them on.

01:29:10   There is the practicality of strapping them on

01:29:12   and strapping them off.

01:29:13   And then it's just like,

01:29:15   just that like, what advantage do you get?

01:29:17   I mean, you know, the thing I think about is,

01:29:19   especially during all the COVID times

01:29:21   when we're all like working remotely and everything,

01:29:23   the social and cultural development surrounding

01:29:28   whether or not you have your camera turned on.

01:29:30   I don't know if you two probably didn't do lots of virtual meetings,

01:29:35   but I was at my jobby job for most of the, you know,

01:29:39   first few years of COVID and everything. And that was the thing.

01:29:42   Do you even turn your camera on? Should you ask people to turn their camera on?

01:29:46   Should students in classes have to turn their camera on or not?

01:29:49   Should you force people to turn their camera on?

01:29:50   Is it polite to even ask them to if they have it off?

01:29:53   How does that change in school versus work?

01:29:55   That was just simply basically toggling a switch in

01:30:00   software. Now imagine what it will be like in terms of we're going to all have

01:30:03   a meeting, take this multi hundred or thousand dollar device that work bought

01:30:08   for you and strap it on your head. Oh you don't want to strap it on your head? Why

01:30:13   don't I see you at the virtual table? I can hear your voice and maybe I can even

01:30:17   see you on the camera but why don't you put the headset on Jill? I don't want to

01:30:21   put the headset on. Why can't I see your face at all times? It's good it's gonna mess up my

01:30:25   hair, it's uncomfortable, I have a headache from being inside it, it makes me motion sick,

01:30:32   do I have to do this as part of my job, if only some people are on their headset and

01:30:36   other people aren't on headsets in the meeting, does that make it a haves and have nots thing,

01:30:40   kind of like people who are meeting in person versus the people who are meeting remote,

01:30:44   so much complexity around this that it is not, even if you're setting aside that this

01:30:47   is never going to happen because Microsoft owns that market and Apple's never going to

01:30:50   be able to sell the enterprise because they suck at that and blah blah blah and all that

01:30:53   other stuff in there.

01:30:56   Just the idea that the killer app

01:30:58   is going to be virtual meetings with a headset like this,

01:31:01   I have such a hard time believing it,

01:31:04   no matter how good it is,

01:31:05   simply because of what I just said.

01:31:07   We have experience with things that are much less invasive

01:31:10   and much simpler, and that we all really do have laptops

01:31:14   with cameras and everything on them like that.

01:31:15   We've crossed all the hurdles,

01:31:17   and yet we still have the difficulty of,

01:31:20   should I be on camera or not?

01:31:22   I haven't combed my hair, I'm still in my pajamas,

01:31:24   is it important to be on camera?

01:31:25   And all we're asking you to do is click a button,

01:31:28   not strap a couple pounds of plastic and batteries

01:31:32   and technology to your face.

01:31:34   - Yeah, there's so many issues if we actually get

01:31:38   to this world of everyone has VR heads

01:31:40   so we can do meetings and then like,

01:31:41   and we aren't even there yet.

01:31:42   I mean, we're still, again, we're still talking about

01:31:44   is this product even gonna be compelling to people?

01:31:47   And that's the thing, when you look at these products today,

01:31:51   You can see the use cases, you can see like,

01:31:53   you know, groups articles having these things,

01:31:54   like this is what people do with the ones

01:31:57   that are out there now, but it seems like it's more

01:32:01   of a novelty or a specialty product,

01:32:03   and it does not seem like anything

01:32:05   the mass market really wants yet.

01:32:07   - Well, I mean, it's not, novelty and specialty

01:32:09   in mass market, like, the place where that doesn't apply

01:32:14   is games, games are mass market, games are not a novelty,

01:32:16   games are bigger than movies, television,

01:32:18   everything combined, games are huge,

01:32:20   Games are the main application for VR headsets

01:32:23   and has driven most of the development for VR headsets.

01:32:26   The technology we have is from Oculus

01:32:28   and from Valve doing that.

01:32:29   Like that's why these things exist

01:32:31   because people play games for entertainment

01:32:34   in shortish spurts, huge advantages to VR in games.

01:32:38   Like games make sense for VR.

01:32:40   But the reason we all give a funny face about this,

01:32:42   like, oh, you can't think of anything

01:32:43   you'd wanna use a cool VR headset for,

01:32:45   well, what about games?

01:32:47   'Cause we know Apple sucks at games

01:32:48   for the million reasons that we've talked about it.

01:32:51   That's what it, and it's not like there are no entrants

01:32:54   in this space.

01:32:54   Valve has a headset that's really good and expensive

01:32:57   and works with a bunch of really good games.

01:32:59   And even there, in the giant vast market of games,

01:33:03   so far, based on current levels of technology,

01:33:06   most people are playing games on their television

01:33:09   or on their phone or on their iPad or on their whatever,

01:33:12   you know, on their console or on their PC

01:33:15   rather than a headset.

01:33:16   they'll buy a $2,000 gaming PC

01:33:20   so they can play their favorite game

01:33:21   at super high resolution, higher frame rates,

01:33:23   and they will choose to do that

01:33:25   instead of buying a VR headset,

01:33:28   because there aren't enough good games,

01:33:30   because people get motion sick,

01:33:31   because the VR games are not compelling enough

01:33:33   to make people buy an additional $1,000 thing

01:33:35   to connect to their $2,000 PC.

01:33:37   There's all sorts of reasons

01:33:38   why we haven't quite gotten there,

01:33:40   but games are potentially a huge market,

01:33:42   and even there, with existing entrants,

01:33:45   with really good technology,

01:33:47   that if Apple is simply incrementally better than them,

01:33:50   and given Apple's inability to really grok

01:33:53   and succeed in the gaming market outside of mobile games,

01:33:57   because obviously they're very successful in mobile games,

01:33:59   and I don't think mobile games lend themselves

01:34:01   too well to VR, that's what makes it a puzzle.

01:34:03   And movies and TV are also a mass market,

01:34:05   but I feel like that is another place

01:34:07   where people have mostly chosen to buy a large television

01:34:10   and sit on their couch,

01:34:11   rather than to strap something on their head,

01:34:13   because again, if the family's gonna sit down

01:34:14   and watch a show, now everyone needs to have a headset

01:34:16   or if one person has the headset

01:34:17   and everyone else is watching the screen, it's weird.

01:34:20   Those are the mass market things,

01:34:21   meetings, movies, TV, games,

01:34:22   just going from Gerber's List.

01:34:24   Personal computing via projected displays.

01:34:26   I think there are mass market uses

01:34:31   for projecting computer images in front of your eyeballs,

01:34:34   but that's not what we're talking about.

01:34:36   We're talking about projecting computer images

01:34:39   in front of your eyeballs with a thing

01:34:41   that looks more or less like existing headsets

01:34:44   that weighs the same, looks the same,

01:34:45   has the same limitations.

01:34:48   It's not the same as putting on a pair

01:34:49   of your Clark Kent glasses and being able

01:34:52   to see people's names hovering above their head,

01:34:53   which as we know is the killer app for augmented reality.

01:34:57   - Yeah, and even, I mean, and that has its own set

01:34:58   of like weird creepy issues, but you know, just again,

01:35:01   like just going back to what we know now is like,

01:35:03   you know, the most likely like, you know,

01:35:05   mixed reality headset kind of thing.

01:35:07   I don't see this being a big deal,

01:35:10   And look, maybe, again, we say this every time,

01:35:14   maybe they're gonna blow us away

01:35:16   with something that we are not thinking of.

01:35:17   But again, if you look back

01:35:19   at their previous new product launches

01:35:21   in young hardware categories,

01:35:24   they usually have not come up

01:35:27   with things that we hadn't thought of.

01:35:28   They just do a good job of what we already knew to exist.

01:35:31   - Slow down, what about digital touch, baby?

01:35:34   (laughing)

01:35:35   The most personal device to ever,

01:35:37   so here's the, the reason we think about this

01:35:39   is because there is the phenomenon

01:35:41   where a technology existed for a long time

01:35:44   and Apple does a better one.

01:35:45   We see that all the time, right?

01:35:47   But there is a phenomenon where Apple does a better one

01:35:49   and the increment, they are better,

01:35:52   crosses some divide that we didn't previously know existed.

01:35:55   And the obvious example of that is the iPhone.

01:35:56   Tons of touchscreen iPhones,

01:35:58   touchscreens have existed,

01:35:59   smartphones have existed,

01:36:01   touchscreen smartphones have existed,

01:36:03   all those things exist before the iPhone.

01:36:05   iPhone is better than them, sure.

01:36:06   Apple makes it, it comes out with a phone,

01:36:08   that it is a touchscreen phone

01:36:09   and it is better than previous ones,

01:36:10   but it was better by enough to cross over this chasm.

01:36:13   And the chasm was going from a weird product

01:36:16   that nerds are into to a thing

01:36:17   that literally every person on earth

01:36:19   can use really, really easily and get used to it.

01:36:22   With the responsiveness, the scrolling, the intuitive,

01:36:25   like Apple did that.

01:36:27   The iPhone was only, you know,

01:36:29   let's say 50% better than the phones that came before it,

01:36:31   but that 50% jumped over a gap.

01:36:33   We didn't know that like touchscreens are like,

01:36:35   "Suck, suck, suck, suck, suck,"

01:36:36   you know, responsiveness, however you wanna measure it.

01:36:39   There's this much lag, this much lag.

01:36:41   You cross this threshold,

01:36:42   this threshold of responsiveness and ease of use,

01:36:45   and it's a discontinuity.

01:36:46   You go from not viable or nerd niche product

01:36:49   like the Trio or whatever those Sony touchscreen phones were

01:36:53   to this other thing that sweeps across the whole world.

01:36:56   That's why we're interested in stuff like this.

01:36:58   Okay, so they come out with an incrementally better headset.

01:37:01   Does their increment of betterness cross a similar divide

01:37:04   that suddenly brings it from the realm

01:37:06   of weird stupid crap that no one cares about

01:37:07   to mass market or does it not?

01:37:09   And it's so hard to tell with that.

01:37:10   The other things you listed didn't do that.

01:37:13   The watch was better than other smartwatches

01:37:16   by a huge margin, I think, a huge increment.

01:37:19   Think of the best smartwatch that existed

01:37:21   before the Apple Watch and the Apple Watch.

01:37:23   I think it made it hugely,

01:37:24   but it didn't cross any sort of divide.

01:37:27   You know what I mean?

01:37:28   It didn't go from here's a thing that nobody wants

01:37:30   to a thing that everybody wants.

01:37:31   It just was a better smartwatch.

01:37:33   It was better by, I think, a lot,

01:37:34   but it didn't jump any kind of gap.

01:37:38   And I think that's true of the iPad.

01:37:39   It's the best tablet it had ever come out with,

01:37:41   but it was similar to the iPhone

01:37:43   in that we'd already jumped the responsive touchscreen

01:37:45   divide so it was right on the other side of that.

01:37:47   And this was just like, like I said, a bigger iPhone,

01:37:49   which is great and a useful thing,

01:37:51   but didn't necessarily break any new ground.

01:37:55   And the headset, the reason people are interested

01:37:58   in technology is we see a divide.

01:38:01   If you can get out of thing that I strap onto my head

01:38:04   that's bulky and big or whatever

01:38:05   and get into a pair of glasses

01:38:07   like that I'm wearing right now,

01:38:09   but that I can see 8K displays in each of my eyeballs with,

01:38:13   that is clearly over a divide

01:38:14   and suddenly that is a product

01:38:15   that everyone on the planet's gonna be like,

01:38:17   "Yes, please give me that."

01:38:19   But we don't have the technology yet

01:38:21   and Apple doesn't either.

01:38:22   They're not coming out with a pair of glasses.

01:38:24   They're coming out with a headset

01:38:26   and people have already done that.

01:38:27   So that is the question for this thing.

01:38:29   Is it better?

01:38:30   First of all, is it better?

01:38:31   I think we all probably assume it's gonna be better

01:38:32   'cause it'll be the newest one.

01:38:34   The newest one will have the best technology and the specs on it seem like they're pretty

01:38:36   good or whatever, right?

01:38:38   So it'll be good.

01:38:39   Maybe it won't be as good as the highest of high-end gaming things.

01:38:42   I think Meta, Facebook has scaled back on that and they're less interested in making

01:38:48   the best of best for gaming with a multi-thousand dollar device with the highest resolution

01:38:52   and lowest response time.

01:38:53   It feels like Valve is more, what is that, Valve Index is what theirs is called, they're

01:38:57   more aiming for that market.

01:39:00   Whereas Meta is trying to go mass market, which whatever, I'm not sure that's a great

01:39:03   decision, but either way, that's where they're going.

01:39:05   So I think the Apple One will be the best headset you can get in terms of the raw specs,

01:39:12   and maybe it'll do some novel things, but it's gonna be far, far away from a pair of

01:39:17   glasses and I don't think it's gonna cross any sort of divide where the audience for

01:39:23   this product suddenly explodes, just like the audience for a touchscreen phone exploded

01:39:27   after the iPhone.

01:39:28   - I mean frankly, I think if you look at where technology

01:39:32   seems to be now, I think we're so far from that,

01:39:36   from the idea of just like the glasses

01:39:38   that are just like glasses and somehow project AR stuff

01:39:41   and are powerful and powered and things like that.

01:39:44   We're so far from that, I think, that if we're looking

01:39:49   at this as a product that's gonna actually be like real

01:39:52   and shipping soon, I think we have to think of it

01:39:55   more like a VR headset than an AR product,

01:39:58   just because it is so,

01:40:01   it seems like we're so far from the AR dream here.

01:40:05   - I don't think we're as far as you think

01:40:06   related to that though, related to the last time

01:40:08   about the touchscreen stuff or whatever.

01:40:10   Because I'm always keep reading these articles

01:40:12   about screen technology,

01:40:13   mostly in relation to television stuff,

01:40:16   the latest set of screen tech that allows you

01:40:18   to lay down very low power, very high fidelity,

01:40:23   very high resolution, very thin screen material

01:40:26   on transparent surfaces is within the realm of our lifetime,

01:40:31   spec wise, in terms of just having a screen.

01:40:33   You could put them in a pair of glasses.

01:40:35   If these experimental stuff,

01:40:37   that they can make some tiny little postage stamp sizes

01:40:39   thing actually existed and were economical today,

01:40:41   you could put them on glasses and then you could power them,

01:40:44   what you end up doing is powering them from your phone.

01:40:46   So 2040, the idea of a pair of glasses

01:40:50   with a high-res, high-fidelity color display

01:40:52   that is wirelessly seeing what is projected

01:40:55   from your smartphone, which will then be insanely powerful,

01:40:57   it already is insanely powerful, is plausible.

01:41:00   So when you say we're so far away,

01:41:01   it's not like the type of thing where we're like,

01:41:03   we'll all be dead.

01:41:04   I think it is plausible that the people on this podcast

01:41:06   will be alive when something like that exists.

01:41:09   And it's mostly has to do with screen technology, right?

01:41:11   Because the technology to have a low power,

01:41:14   lightweight screen that has the specs that we need

01:41:18   is the limiting factor.

01:41:20   Powering it, all you need there is enough,

01:41:23   because you could just power it from your phone, right?

01:41:25   Like phones are incredibly powerful.

01:41:28   In 20 years, they'll be even more powerful, hopefully.

01:41:32   And then you could just project it

01:41:33   and the thing that's on your face is just a screen, right?

01:41:36   That's not what this device is,

01:41:37   even though it seems like it's tied to your iPhone,

01:41:39   it's gonna have its own SOCs in it

01:41:40   according to the rumors and all that other stuff,

01:41:41   which is fine.

01:41:42   And like, I'm not,

01:41:45   that's why I don't dismiss this entire market

01:41:47   because I think when they do cross that threshold,

01:41:50   it will be really big.

01:41:52   and I think we are in a generational shooting distance

01:41:57   of getting there.

01:41:59   - I think it's possible, but I do think the products

01:42:02   that people think of when they think of AR,

01:42:04   when I say we're not close, I'm thinking we're like

01:42:07   10 years or more away.

01:42:08   Not to say that it's our lifetime away.

01:42:10   Hopefully we live longer than that.

01:42:12   But I'm thinking it's at least 10 years away probably

01:42:15   from that kind of product.

01:42:16   But that brings the question up, okay,

01:42:18   well what do they do in the meantime?

01:42:20   And in the meantime, if they're going

01:42:22   to have this product out there that's more of like a VR or--

01:42:26   we'll see what, quote, "mixed reality" ends up being like.

01:42:30   That's a huge question mark.

01:42:32   Maybe they've done such a great job with mixed reality

01:42:36   that maybe a lot of these questions become moot.

01:42:38   And we don't know.

01:42:39   We'll see when the product comes out, if the product comes out.

01:42:41   We'll see that.

01:42:42   When you say mixed reality, what are you referring to?

01:42:46   Give me a use case.

01:42:47   You're saying just projecting 3D stuff onto the real world?

01:42:50   - Yeah, basically like what the current meta quest 2 does

01:42:55   with like you step outside of the circle

01:42:57   and you get the little black and white

01:42:58   crappy view of the world,

01:42:59   the current rumors on the Apple thing

01:43:01   are that it's gonna have much better cameras

01:43:03   to the outside world,

01:43:04   possibly even that goopy sounding thing

01:43:07   that it shows your face on a screen to the outside world.

01:43:10   I hope that's wrong.

01:43:11   - That reminds me of some terrifying things

01:43:14   from the peripheral TV series.

01:43:16   Now showing on Amazon Prime is pretty good,

01:43:18   you should check it out.

01:43:19   - Yeah, I can't imagine that not looking horrifying,

01:43:21   but okay. - Yeah, but we'll see.

01:43:23   Anyway, but if that's the direction they're going,

01:43:26   if they do a really great job of that,

01:43:29   maybe there would be a decent amount of utility there,

01:43:33   but I don't think this is gonna be the kind of thing

01:43:35   you're gonna see people walking around on the street

01:43:37   wearing this thing.

01:43:38   It's probably more gonna be,

01:43:40   you might play with it in the office or at home sometime,

01:43:43   but if they do a really good job of that kind of

01:43:47   mixed reality before they can get to truly AR type glasses.

01:43:52   Maybe that'll be really great in some way

01:43:54   that I'm not thinking of and won't be super creepy

01:43:57   and weird and uncomfortable and with a short battery life.

01:44:00   But again, I look at these rumors so far

01:44:04   and it just does not sound like a product

01:44:07   that excites me at all.

01:44:09   So again, I hope I'm wrong.

01:44:11   It's not to say that Apple can't do this.

01:44:16   They have a lot of resources and a lot of smart people,

01:44:18   and they tend to mostly do successful things.

01:44:21   So I'm sure if they really put their mind to it,

01:44:25   they can do it, but I wonder what exactly

01:44:29   they're doing here.

01:44:31   And is this gonna be good enough and successful enough

01:44:36   to be worth all of this effort?

01:44:38   And I don't know the answer to that yet.

01:44:39   We have to see the product and we'll see how it sells,

01:44:41   but none of this sounds very exciting to me.

01:44:45   maybe we'll just be very pleasantly surprised,

01:44:47   or maybe it actually, maybe they haven't thought

01:44:50   of something that we can't think of.

01:44:52   Maybe they haven't broken out

01:44:54   of the limited imaginations that we have,

01:44:57   and maybe it's just gonna be a kind of okay product

01:44:59   that doesn't go very far.

01:45:00   I don't know, we'll find out eventually.

01:45:03   But frankly, I'm so excited about their other products

01:45:08   that I worry this might just be a big distraction.

01:45:12   - Yeah, I've been throwing links into the chat room

01:45:14   with the little L modifier so they show up in case he's linkless to things that I've

01:45:18   posted on my blog in the past about these topics.

01:45:21   One of them was the article I wrote entitled "Antacid Tablet" which was throwing cold water

01:45:25   on all the fantastical rumors about the iPad before it was released.

01:45:29   And I'll take my annual victory lap for being right about that.

01:45:35   But the other one was like, to your question about why are they building this AR headset

01:45:39   now if it's got to be this big bulky thing and we're not quite at the point where we

01:45:43   have the glasses or whatever.

01:45:44   The article I wrote back in 2013,

01:45:47   don't stop thinking about tomorrow.

01:45:48   - Another song.

01:45:49   - Yeah, you don't get to the glasses

01:45:53   without doing all the hard work of the steps in between.

01:45:57   And kind of like how we always talked about

01:45:58   how it's important for Apple to do like their reality kit

01:46:01   and the LIDAR sensor on the iPad and the AR VR apps

01:46:04   with, you know, placing furniture in your house.

01:46:07   How important it is for Apple to do that.

01:46:09   Even though it seems like it's a silly thing

01:46:11   and they do those AR table demos

01:46:12   we all laugh at them or whatever,

01:46:13   because what they're doing is they're developing

01:46:16   the technology that will be needed

01:46:18   for the day when we get those glasses, right?

01:46:21   You can't just wait, oh, we're not gonna look

01:46:23   into this field until the glasses are ready,

01:46:24   because then someone else will come and eat your lunch.

01:46:26   So similarly, I think it is important for Apple

01:46:29   to do the work to make a Oculus Quest

01:46:38   Valve Index style AR/VR headset thingy,

01:46:42   more or less at the current level of technology,

01:46:44   but a little bit better,

01:46:46   even if it is not a particularly successful product.

01:46:49   Because if they wanna be a player in this space,

01:46:51   you can't just wait around forever.

01:46:53   The article that I posted that people were complaining

01:46:55   at the time about the slimming edge of the 5K iMac,

01:46:59   'cause they took out the optical drive

01:47:00   to make the edge of the 5K iMac slim,

01:47:02   and they were like,

01:47:02   why the hell are they making the edge of the iMac slim?

01:47:04   Who cares how slim it is, right?

01:47:06   or like the iPhone 5 was too skinny,

01:47:08   it's like my phone didn't need to be that skinny,

01:47:10   why do you keep making it skinnier?

01:47:11   And the analogy I made for the phone was like,

01:47:14   yeah, but what if I told you

01:47:15   it was as thin as a credit card?

01:47:16   Then when you dropped your phone on the crown like hazy,

01:47:18   it wouldn't break 'cause it would just flutter to the ground

01:47:20   like a little credit card type thing, right?

01:47:22   You're never gonna get to that type of, you know,

01:47:24   fantasy clear phone that you see in sci-fi shows

01:47:26   that is light and durable and, you know,

01:47:30   much sturdier than an aluminum glass thing

01:47:32   that we have now or whatever.

01:47:34   And for the iMac, I would say,

01:47:35   you don't get to the current 24-inch iMac

01:47:37   that's practically the thickness of a phone,

01:47:39   if you don't spend years and years and years

01:47:41   making your desktop computer thinner

01:47:43   for reasons that people don't understand.

01:47:44   Again, I'm not advocating for making stupid computers.

01:47:47   I rail against that all the time.

01:47:48   I'm just saying that you can't just make

01:47:51   a big fat computer for decades

01:47:53   and then you have your next computer

01:47:55   be as thick as a 24-inch iMac.

01:47:57   The expertise you build learning how to make skinny things

01:48:00   pays off, and similarly, making headsets.

01:48:02   Hopefully this one will be a little bit slimmer,

01:48:05   a little bit lighter than existing products.

01:48:07   Have better specs, be more responsive,

01:48:10   have more power, have better battery life,

01:48:13   like all the things, right?

01:48:14   And still it might be the Apple Watch series zero

01:48:17   of headsets where people are like,

01:48:18   "Ah, wasn't that great?

01:48:20   It was way too slow.

01:48:21   There was no good applications for it.

01:48:23   The games on it were silly," you know, whatever.

01:48:26   But if you ever want Apple to make those glasses

01:48:29   that let you walk around the city streets

01:48:31   seeing Apple map projecting everything in all directions

01:48:33   and being able to look at messages

01:48:35   and see people's names floating over their head

01:48:37   and all that other good stuff that we want to happen,

01:48:40   you don't get there unless you do all the work

01:48:42   leading up to it.

01:48:43   And you can't, and by the way,

01:48:44   you can't do all that work internally

01:48:45   and never ship a product.

01:48:46   So I'm already kind of preemptively giving Apple a pass

01:48:51   on this thing, that even if it is a massive flop,

01:48:54   Apple needs to do this.

01:48:55   In a way, they don't need to do a car,

01:48:57   because I feel like this is up Apple's alley.

01:49:00   If and when the technology gets to the point

01:49:03   where we can all have information displayed

01:49:06   on our eyeballs in a way that is unobtrusive and lightweight,

01:49:08   like with glasses or in the distant, distant future

01:49:12   magical contact lenses or whatever,

01:49:14   that's where Apple should be.

01:49:15   That's right up their alley.

01:49:17   That's what they've always been doing,

01:49:18   personal computers, computing devices

01:49:20   that you use yourself, right?

01:49:22   Maybe less so with the car, but whatever.

01:49:25   And so I do want to see them trying here,

01:49:28   and I do want to see them ship something.

01:49:30   And if this ends up being, you know,

01:49:33   I was gonna say the original HomePod,

01:49:34   then, you know, we're gonna go back to the drawing board

01:49:36   and come out, maybe not with the Apple VR goggles 1.5,

01:49:39   but who knows?

01:49:41   This year, apparently we'll find out.

01:49:43   - You know, I can't help but wonder

01:49:46   what is Apple already said to us about this device

01:49:49   without us realizing it?

01:49:50   And the canonical example of this is auto layout

01:49:54   before they switched to more than one screen size.

01:49:58   They kind of choreographed that switch by saying,

01:50:00   "Hey developers, what if we made this system,"

01:50:04   that was a pain in the ass,

01:50:05   "but what if we made this system that would let you

01:50:08   kind of dynamically adjust to different screen sizes

01:50:11   and layouts and whatnot with magic?"

01:50:14   And they did this for a year or two.

01:50:16   And then finally we got, what was it, the iPhone 4,

01:50:19   the first iPhone that had a different size screen.

01:50:23   And obviously, the clear example of how they're

01:50:27   potentially choreographing this headset is all the AR

01:50:30   stuff they've been doing recently.

01:50:32   And I don't know enough about AR or VR or any 3D

01:50:37   programming or any of this stuff in order to be able to

01:50:41   theorize where they're going.

01:50:43   But I wonder if somebody more knowledgeable than I might be

01:50:47   able to put together, based on what these APIs are doing and

01:50:52   direction these APIs are going, what does this indicate to us?

01:50:57   I can't help but wonder if James Thompson, who's spent an inordinate amount of time doing

01:51:01   all sorts of interesting, and I say that genuinely, interesting and sometimes silly, but definitely

01:51:07   interesting work in AR and VR, well maybe not VR, but in AR and 3D space and stuff like

01:51:13   that, and like Carrot Weather's AR mode, which I've used like twice but it's still a thing.

01:51:18   What are these APIs telling us about the future?

01:51:21   And all too often, we don't put it together until it was too late.

01:51:24   I think in the auto layout example, I think we all kind of had a feeling where that was

01:51:28   going.

01:51:29   But a lot of times, we'll look at it after the fact and go, "Oh."

01:51:33   Like a lot of the changes, I can't think of specific examples, but a lot of the changes

01:51:37   that it turned out were to support Swift DSLs like SwiftUI.

01:51:42   We didn't really know where that was going at first, I didn't think.

01:51:45   Maybe my memory's bad.

01:51:46   And then once SwiftUI landed, we were like, "Oh, that's what that was about."

01:51:51   And maybe one of you guys can kind of theorize about this.

01:51:55   I don't think I'm the person to do it, but I can't help but wonder if we look at the

01:51:59   changes and the new things introduced over the last several years, particularly around

01:52:03   AR.

01:52:04   What does that tell us about the future?

01:52:05   I don't think they were particularly secretive about that, though, because all the AR stuff

01:52:09   we see, it's right there out in the open, and we've been developing it for years.

01:52:13   What we were always asking is like, "Why the hell would I want to do that on my phone?

01:52:16   Why do I need a light sensor on my iPad?"

01:52:18   And it's like, "Oh, well, if you wanted to change your paint color and interior decoration,

01:52:23   then you can hold your iPad around and scan your room, and then you can use the IKEA app

01:52:27   to drop furniture in, or you can tap on your walls and change the color."

01:52:30   And then like, and it all makes sense.

01:52:32   Like, "Yeah, I guess."

01:52:33   And, you know, "You can use this to measure."

01:52:35   Remember the measure tool?

01:52:36   How are you using it to measure?

01:52:38   Is it accurate?

01:52:39   You know kind of not really as accurate as using a tape measure

01:52:43   But it's a fun thing to do and like you could always see what they're doing

01:52:45   Oh the new AR thing like we have better 3d rendering and it's better about detecting objects and things won't clip and overlap and

01:52:51   Here you can remember putting the new Mac Pro on the table. They have the 3d model

01:52:55   It's right out there in front of us the API is for it what you can use it for

01:52:59   But it's like we'd always be looking at that and saying okay. This is cool

01:53:02   I like that you're making this technology better every time at WBC you have new sessions

01:53:06   how you're making it better and all of us were just saying,

01:53:08   but we know, we know all this is for when we strap something

01:53:12   to our head, when we put something into our eyeballs,

01:53:14   when we have a stereo image, one image in the left eye,

01:53:17   one image in the right eye that allows us to have a 3D view

01:53:20   of things and like, like we know.

01:53:22   And so we're waiting for this product to come out.

01:53:24   And the questions about the product are things that I think

01:53:26   that we haven't had hints of, like, for example,

01:53:29   what is the UI, unless stage manager is the hint,

01:53:31   lots of people read into that.

01:53:32   Oh, stage manager is exactly what the UI is gonna look in.

01:53:35   Here's the problem with that prediction.

01:53:36   It's almost impossible for that prediction to be wrong

01:53:38   'cause they're like, if there's literally any

01:53:41   like computer window floating on an angle,

01:53:44   they're gonna say, "See, it's just like stage manager."

01:53:46   Even if they share no code,

01:53:48   the teams didn't know about each other

01:53:49   if they were in different parts of the world, right?

01:53:51   Everyone will say, "It's just like stage manager."

01:53:53   I can tell you right now,

01:53:55   there will be an ability to see essentially a screen

01:53:58   that is not square with your eyeballs.

01:54:00   And so if you wanted to predict,

01:54:01   is it gonna be like stage manager?

01:54:03   Yeah, there's gonna be a screen that's floating off

01:54:05   to the side that's not square with your eyeballs,

01:54:07   but it doesn't mean it's the same as Stage Manager.

01:54:08   Anyway, I might literally be called Stage Manager.

01:54:11   I don't know, I'm just saying like,

01:54:12   we can kind of see what they'll do,

01:54:14   but what we haven't seen is like, what is the UI?

01:54:16   What is the equivalent of Springboard?

01:54:17   How do you launch apps?

01:54:18   How do you find apps?

01:54:19   How do you interact with it?

01:54:20   How do you enter text?

01:54:21   Like all the, there's possibilities

01:54:22   when you look at the competing products and how they do it,

01:54:24   but we don't have answers to that

01:54:25   because that's the stuff they don't have to release.

01:54:28   But what they are releasing and what we do see is,

01:54:31   how do you project objects into real space?

01:54:33   or metal, their 3D API, what does that support?

01:54:36   All, you know, like we see that, we see the GPUs,

01:54:38   we see their shader technology,

01:54:40   we see their rendering pipelines,

01:54:43   we see their sensor technologies

01:54:45   with the cameras and the LIDAR,

01:54:47   that's all out in the open for us to see

01:54:48   because they ship products,

01:54:49   they ship products and people ship apps

01:54:51   and we can get to use it.

01:54:52   But every time we use it, we think this is great and all,

01:54:55   but it really needs to be in a headset.

01:54:56   And so when the headset comes out, we're gonna be like,

01:54:58   oh no, finally it's in a headset.

01:54:59   And then we have more complaints, which is like,

01:55:00   I don't know, I'd spend $1500 on a thing

01:55:03   that I'm not sure what I would use it for.

01:55:05   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:55:06   Green Chef, Trade Coffee, and Squarespace.

01:55:10   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:55:11   You can join us at atp.fm/join.

01:55:14   We will talk to you next week.

01:55:17   (upbeat music)

01:55:20   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:55:22   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:55:25   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:55:26   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:55:27   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:55:29   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:55:30   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:55:35   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:55:38   It was accidental (accidental)

01:55:41   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:55:46   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:55:51   @c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s

01:55:55   So that's Casey List M-a-r-c-o-a-r-m

01:55:59   ♪ Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:56:04   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

01:56:08   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:56:10   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:56:12   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:56:14   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:56:15   ♪ Tech broadcast so long ♪

01:56:18   - Trying to figure out what to do with my iPad.

01:56:22   - What do you mean by that?

01:56:24   - Like in general.

01:56:25   Like, you know, I bought an iPad for like stage manager

01:56:27   testing with my app.

01:56:28   that turned out not to really be much of a thing.

01:56:31   - You should have sold it to me,

01:56:32   so I could have given it to my son,

01:56:33   but you turned me down.

01:56:34   - I'm never gonna sell anything to you.

01:56:37   - And now you don't know what to do with it again.

01:56:38   - Yeah, I'm back to not knowing what to do with it.

01:56:40   - Well, you should go back in time and sell it to me.

01:56:42   - Easy peasy.

01:56:43   - 'Cause I bought a brand new M2 one,

01:56:44   it was way more expensive.

01:56:46   - You know, whenever I try to,

01:56:50   so I tried once again using the iPad

01:56:52   for some productivity roles,

01:56:54   and just doing simple things, email, notes,

01:56:57   basic things like that, and it just frustrates me

01:57:00   every time. (laughs)

01:57:02   - Are you using it with a physical keyboard?

01:57:03   - The keyboard's fine, but it's just like,

01:57:04   you know, I had to like jump between a couple of,

01:57:07   like, so I had, I was trying to do this yesterday,

01:57:10   I had a mail message open that I was composing.

01:57:13   I wanted to refer to an attachment

01:57:15   in a different mail message.

01:57:17   Now, you can actually do this now.

01:57:19   This wasn't always the case with iPadOS,

01:57:21   but nowadays you can do that.

01:57:23   You like, you know, push the little compose window down,

01:57:26   and it goes into the little ghost lineup of lost windows

01:57:30   that every app has somewhere hidden,

01:57:33   like that you, and then okay,

01:57:35   how do you get back to that window?

01:57:37   Well, as far as I know, you have to like,

01:57:39   tap the mail icon in the dock,

01:57:42   so bring up the dock first, then tap the mail icon,

01:57:44   then it brings up a little hovery ghost lineup,

01:57:46   and then you pick it from there,

01:57:48   and I was doing that, switching between that

01:57:51   and like a notes window,

01:57:53   and trying to view this attachment

01:57:54   so I could comment on it,

01:57:56   And it was so cumbersome.

01:58:00   I'm like, you know what?

01:58:02   I should go do this on a Mac

01:58:03   where I can do it in two seconds super easily.

01:58:06   - You don't have to solve the puzzle

01:58:07   of how to subdivide your screen

01:58:08   and how to find the ghost windows.

01:58:10   I know exactly what you're talking about.

01:58:11   - And then how to like unsubdivide it.

01:58:13   Like when you're done,

01:58:14   how do you close all these ghost windows?

01:58:15   Like it's, oh, everything about it just like.

01:58:18   - And even within the realm of like the main multitasking

01:58:22   thing that I use on the iPad,

01:58:24   because my use case is very simple,

01:58:26   is I use slide over a lot,

01:58:27   just because it's mostly the case where I'm,

01:58:29   I have one big thing that I'm doing,

01:58:31   which is, let's be honest,

01:58:32   probably watching YouTube video or a TV show.

01:58:34   And then in slide over, I have a bunch of other crap,

01:58:35   like, you know, reading Twitter or Mastodon,

01:58:38   or looking at a Slack thing or whatever, right?

01:58:40   And so I know how all of those modes work.

01:58:43   I know how to get things in and out of slide over.

01:58:45   I know how to switch between them.

01:58:46   I know how to move them from one side to the other.

01:58:48   I know how to bring them full screen and move them back.

01:58:50   Like within the realm of the small corner of functionality

01:58:52   one, I know how to do it.

01:58:54   But then on top of that, apps have bugs.

01:58:57   Slack, for instance, when it's in SlideOver,

01:59:00   if you want to type something,

01:59:02   very often you can't hit the send button

01:59:05   because the keyboard slides up over the send button.

01:59:07   Like you can't get to it.

01:59:09   The only way to send that message

01:59:11   is to put Slack into full screen

01:59:12   because it's something about the,

01:59:14   like the, you know, the layout of the thing is wrong.

01:59:17   Like they're measuring,

01:59:18   they don't know where the keyboard is,

01:59:19   they're measuring it wrong,

01:59:20   and there's physically no way

01:59:21   without an attached hardware keyboard, which I don't have,

01:59:24   to hit send on the message you want.

01:59:26   So you have to bring it to full screen,

01:59:28   hit send and then put it back into SlideOver.

01:59:30   Bugs like that would not be tolerable in a Mac app.

01:59:33   Imagine if like an Apple Mail,

01:59:36   that when you opened a new message to compose it,

01:59:39   you couldn't send it

01:59:40   until you put the window into full screen.

01:59:43   That would not be an acceptable shipping bug,

01:59:45   but on common applications like Slack,

01:59:48   basic functionality does not work in SlideOver.

01:59:50   Is it an OS bug, is it a Slack bug?

01:59:52   I don't know whose fault it is,

01:59:54   but it's unacceptable, I say.

01:59:57   - I just like, every time I have tried to find

02:00:00   a role for the iPad in my life,

02:00:04   I either failed immediately or I have failed eventually.

02:00:08   It's either, it works for a while,

02:00:10   and then all the limitations irritate me,

02:00:14   or my needs change or my priorities change,

02:00:17   and it goes away.

02:00:19   I hear from all the people who use and love iPads

02:00:21   all the time, including the rest of my family.

02:00:24   And I see how much everyone else uses them.

02:00:26   And for the stuff I want to and have to do,

02:00:30   I have just failed so hard, so consistently,

02:00:33   at making this device and this device family

02:00:36   a routine part of my life.

02:00:38   And I almost feel like I'm failing as an Apple nerd

02:00:41   to find a use for all of their products.

02:00:43   You know, like I really should be using an iPad

02:00:45   on a regular basis, but like,

02:00:47   There have been long spans, months long spans

02:00:51   where I haven't even had my own iPad.

02:00:53   Often times it's because my kid's iPad broke

02:00:55   so we traded a mine for a few weeks

02:00:58   while I got his fixed or whatever.

02:01:00   There have been long spans where I just haven't had one

02:01:02   and it's never really been a problem

02:01:04   with a very few occasional exceptions like,

02:01:09   oh there's now a new iPad with a heart rate capability

02:01:11   I have to test for my app.

02:01:12   That's about it.

02:01:13   And I think Stage Manager was the first one of those

02:01:15   in maybe five years.

02:01:17   Like, so, it's like, and I just, like, am I,

02:01:20   I understand that because I'm a human being,

02:01:23   I don't need to find a use for every single one

02:01:26   of Apple's products, I know that, academically speaking.

02:01:29   But as an Apple nerd and a technology enthusiast,

02:01:32   and a person who, you know, makes a big part of my living

02:01:34   from talking about as many Apple products as we can,

02:01:37   I feel like I should probably find a use

02:01:39   for this device in my life, but what is it?

02:01:43   I don't know.

02:01:43   - You need to watch more YouTube, you need to watch more TV,

02:01:46   and have to watch my movies in bed.

02:01:47   That's literally the main use of my thing.

02:01:49   My iPad is on my nightstand next to my bed.

02:01:52   I used to watch YouTube, television, and movies in bed

02:01:57   while I read other parts of the internet.

02:01:59   That's what I use it for, like 99% of the time.

02:02:01   - Wait, whoa, whoa, hold on.

02:02:03   It's playing TV show on your lap while you're browsing,

02:02:07   like on a different device, like on your phone or something?

02:02:10   - No, it's the only thing on my lap.

02:02:12   It's my iPad, it's in a little stand, it's propped up,

02:02:14   I'm looking at it, and I'm watching either YouTube video,

02:02:17   a movie, or a television show before I go to bed.

02:02:20   And then I'm saying I slide over things like Mastodon,

02:02:23   and Twitter, and Slack.

02:02:24   - Oh, oh, oh.

02:02:25   - If the thing I'm watching is boring.

02:02:27   It's a two screen experience with one screen.

02:02:31   - But like, I mean, even like YouTube is better

02:02:33   on a laptop than it is on the iPad.

02:02:35   - No, no it's not.

02:02:36   - Eh.

02:02:37   - That's why your kids, that's why other,

02:02:40   - It's the YouTube, the iPad is the best device for YouTube.

02:02:44   Phone is probably best for TikTok, vertical and all,

02:02:47   but, and to the extent that anybody should be using TikTok,

02:02:50   but YouTube, iPad, they go together like bees and carrots.

02:02:53   - Mm, I don't know.

02:02:54   And by the way, the app that I usually would watch

02:02:57   before going to bed is TikTok,

02:02:59   so that's probably not gonna work very well on the iPad.

02:03:02   - That's a phone thing, but I can encourage you

02:03:04   to maybe check out some of those YouTube channels

02:03:06   you subscribe to.

02:03:08   maybe it'll be more interesting and educational.

02:03:10   If you're interested in seeing someone rebuild

02:03:12   one of those hydrogen-powered V12s from those BMWs,

02:03:15   (laughing)

02:03:16   that's what I was watching earlier today.

02:03:19   He's got the whole bottom end of the engine reassembled,

02:03:23   just waiting for the heads to come back

02:03:24   from being ported in Poland.

02:03:27   You can tune right into that.

02:03:29   - Even all I see when I go to YouTube is like,

02:03:31   people's expressions of surprise or confusion

02:03:35   with their exaggerated faces.

02:03:37   Stop looking at the thumbnails.

02:03:38   - A big headline that sounds really sensational

02:03:42   and then like holding up a diagonal Apple product.

02:03:45   Like that's, and there's like 17,

02:03:47   like I remember like, I think was it yesterday

02:03:50   that all the HomePod YouTube reviews came out?

02:03:53   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:03:54   - I was looking at probably like the MacBoomers,

02:03:56   you know, page listing them all

02:03:58   and they had embedded like five or six

02:04:01   or nine different YouTube videos all in a row.

02:04:03   Like here's all the reviews.

02:04:04   And you look down and you look at all the thumbnails

02:04:07   and they all look exactly the same.

02:04:10   Like they're all different people on different channels,

02:04:12   but it's like, okay, I can see the formula clear as day,

02:04:16   and this is all YouTube looks like when I see it,

02:04:18   and I don't like that.

02:04:20   (laughs)

02:04:21   It turns me off so much that all of these people

02:04:25   who are otherwise smart people who I respect,

02:04:28   and for most of them, or if not all of them,

02:04:31   but to see them all stoop to this crappy formula,

02:04:35   it just really turns me off.

02:04:36   - Well, I can tell you that M539 Restorations

02:04:40   does not have thumbnails like that.

02:04:42   So again, if you wanna watch a BMW's engine

02:04:46   being slowly rebuilt over the course of a month,

02:04:48   that's the channel for you.

02:04:50   - For what it's worth, Marco, I enjoy using my iPad

02:04:53   when I'm on the couch, you know,

02:04:57   so I'm multitasking, you know, two screening, et cetera.

02:05:00   I think that's a really good time for it.

02:05:02   Now, you could absolutely use your phone.

02:05:04   I'm not saying that this is required, you know,

02:05:06   An iPad isn't required for this,

02:05:08   but I do like it for that a lot.

02:05:10   I also really, really like it if I'm a passenger in a car

02:05:15   for a journey that's relatively long.

02:05:17   So if I'm gonna be in the car for like an hour

02:05:20   and Aaron's driving, it's a great device for that.

02:05:23   And why is that, Marco?

02:05:25   Because guess what it has?

02:05:26   A cellular modem. - Cellular.

02:05:28   (laughing)

02:05:29   - If only, if only I could pay Apple

02:05:32   an obscene amount of money to include one of those

02:05:34   in a MacBook Pro.

02:05:35   gosh, that would be amazing.

02:05:37   Have we ever talked about that?

02:05:38   I feel like we should talk about that sometime.

02:05:40   Anyway, but I mean, really legitimately,

02:05:44   I really do enjoy it for those kinds of things.

02:05:47   And I really do, for the most part, like using it.

02:05:51   And I know this is such a tired thing to say,

02:05:53   but I like using it for consumption.

02:05:55   If I am not at my desk and I wanna catch up on the things

02:05:59   that I think we're gonna talk about tonight on ATP,

02:06:01   then I'll oftentimes grab my iPad,

02:06:04   because if I'm just reading stuff, it's great for that.

02:06:07   Now, if I'm sitting down to add things to the show notes,

02:06:10   oh no, put me in front of a Mac every day, any time,

02:06:14   because not only is doing multiple things on the iPad

02:06:18   a pain in the butt, as you two have both described,

02:06:20   but the Google apps on the iPad, in my personal opinion,

02:06:23   are straight trash and are terrible.

02:06:27   And so because of that, if I'm adding stuff

02:06:29   to the show notes, I will absolutely be doing that on a Mac.

02:06:33   But if I'm just consuming the things in the show notes,

02:06:36   I'm catching up on the videos that you and Jon have put in,

02:06:37   or the links that you and Jon have put in,

02:06:39   I can absolutely do that on the iPad and it's no problem.

02:06:41   And it's a much more, even with the big heavy keyboard,

02:06:44   it is a pretty convenient thing to carry.

02:06:47   Even with the pencil on the side of it

02:06:50   that I don't even use that often,

02:06:51   I still find it far more convenient to carry that around

02:06:54   than I do a laptop.

02:06:55   And the battery life, although now with the M1 laptops

02:06:58   and M2 laptops, battery life isn't really an issue anymore

02:07:00   either, but the battery life on the iPad is great.

02:07:02   with cellular modem on. So I'm not saying you're wrong for the record. I think I'm not creating

02:07:09   uses for it necessarily, but I am finding uses for the iPad where I have other devices that would

02:07:15   work almost as well. So you're not really wrong or missing out or anything like that. But I do think

02:07:23   if you are the kind of person to to screen, you know, in the living room or if you wanted to be

02:07:28   out and about in, like say on the boat,

02:07:31   tour from the mainland.

02:07:32   I can imagine, assuming you have cellular service there,

02:07:35   which I presume you do, that'd be a perfect time for an iPad.

02:07:37   If you're just goofing off on the boat,

02:07:39   and you just wanna spend however long that boat trip is,

02:07:42   what, like half an hour, just goofing off.

02:07:44   That's perfect for an iPad, assuming you have cellular.

02:07:47   - I see, I usually just use the phone for that.

02:07:49   - And that's not unreasonable.

02:07:51   It's not unreasonable at all.

02:07:52   But if you have one to use, you might as well use the iPad.

02:07:57   I mean, if you're watching, like I was saying, watching video,

02:08:00   yeah, like TikTok or something small like that.

02:08:02   But if you're watching a television show or movie,

02:08:03   which I know you're not that into,

02:08:05   a bigger screen is better.

02:08:06   And if you're watching someone rebuild an engine

02:08:08   and you want to see the details, it's too small on your phone.

02:08:10   You can't see it.

02:08:11   Like, it's too zoomed out, even if it's like 4K.

02:08:14   Everything's tiny, right?

02:08:15   So the iPad is a bigger screen.

02:08:16   Not so big that it's unwieldy, but same thing

02:08:19   with like on a trade table, on taking a flight.

02:08:22   iPad is a better thing to watch a movie on than watching

02:08:24   a movie on your phone, right?

02:08:26   And even I, I have the big phone because I do watch YouTube videos on my phone plenty

02:08:30   of times, right?

02:08:32   But in the winding down going to bed thing, I use the iPad for that because it is a better

02:08:37   device for that.

02:08:38   And also it stands up on its own.

02:08:40   It has a little, you know, I turn the little smart cover around and make the little triangle

02:08:44   and I don't have to hold it up at all.

02:08:45   Whereas my phone, I would have to be holding, right?

02:08:47   And when I'm going off to bed, I don't want to have to hold it up.

02:08:50   And would a laptop be better?

02:08:51   There's no way I would keep a laptop next to my bed.

02:08:53   I don't need the keyboard.

02:08:54   It's big and unwieldy.

02:08:55   I don't need that complexity, so that's the place the iPad fits in in my life.

02:09:00   I would be very sad without it.

02:09:03   Whereas on the other hand, I haven't worn an Apple Watch in ages, and I don't spend

02:09:07   any of my time thinking about how I can fit an Apple Watch into my life.

02:09:12   But I still have my Apple Watch, although at this point it's probably dead.

02:09:14   It's been in the drawer for so long, they always get to the point where they're so drained

02:09:17   that they can't even charge anymore.

02:09:19   I should check that out sometime.

02:09:20   Yeah, is this still the first generation one?

02:09:22   Series Zero.

02:09:23   My wife has the current watch.

02:09:25   I'm living vicariously through her watch use to be up on what it's like to have a watch

02:09:30   because she gets a new one very frequently, uses it every single day.

02:09:34   I see her use it, I see her send messages to and from it, and whatever.

02:09:38   So I feel like I'm up on the watch even though I'm not wearing one just because I'm not a

02:09:41   watch person.

02:09:42   [BEEPING]