522: I’ll Just Keep You for Ten Years


00:00:00   It took this long for something to break on the Land Rover.

00:00:05   - Oh, hooray, it's finally happened.

00:00:09   - This car, I mean, I know you bought it used,

00:00:11   but it was like how many miles

00:00:12   and how many years old was it when you got it?

00:00:14   - It was like a year and a half old

00:00:16   and something like 15,000 or 20,000 miles,

00:00:19   something like that, 15.

00:00:19   - It seems like things shouldn't be breaking yet,

00:00:21   but anyway, go on.

00:00:22   - It's the sunroof.

00:00:23   - Oh, you know how much I love sunroofs.

00:00:25   - No, don't tell, don't, can you not,

00:00:28   I will give you infinite money to not talk about this anymore, because the last thing

00:00:33   I need is more of the anti-sunroof mafia to have ammunition to be against sunroofs.

00:00:40   I love a sunroof.

00:00:42   One of the only problems I have with my car is that it does not have a sunroof.

00:00:47   I am in a group chat that I'm sure I've brought up many times on this show with a couple of

00:00:51   friends of mine who are car nuts, not you two, different friends of mine that are car

00:00:54   and the two of them are parts of the anti-sunroof propaganda machine and I

00:00:58   hate it so I don't even want to know I don't want to know let's move on I mean

00:01:02   look and look the problem is really stupid it just doesn't like yesterday we

00:01:08   we drove off the island yesterday and on the way there I could open the sunroof

00:01:11   just fine on the way home try to open it nothing happens that's kind of better

00:01:16   than the alternative where it's open and you can't close it right I thought I

00:01:19   told him I'm like you know it's good thing it's stuck closed and not stuck

00:01:22   open but yeah so I gotta you know I'm sure I've got it looked at it maybe

00:01:27   maybe it's gonna be a simple you know reboot something or fix a fuse maybe

00:01:31   it's probably gonna be a pain and and this is a minor thing in the grand

00:01:34   scheme of things but you know and I know there's that YouTube channel is it TFL

00:01:41   it's like the off-roaders on YouTube they do pretty good videos and they got

00:01:44   a defender and their son roof died really fast on it so it's something like

00:01:50   I'm sure it's a thing.

00:01:51   But yeah, I love a sunroof.

00:01:54   And this is one of the great regrets I have

00:01:57   is that whatever car I get next

00:02:00   almost certainly won't have one

00:02:02   because I really wanna go back to electric

00:02:03   as soon as I can.

00:02:05   And all of the good electric options

00:02:07   of either off-road capable things,

00:02:10   which is basically just Rivian at this point,

00:02:12   or things that are at least

00:02:14   like a little bit higher seating position

00:02:15   so I can fix my leg sciatic things and keep them fixed,

00:02:18   they all are like, oh, we're gonna have this big,

00:02:21   expansive glass fixed ceiling panel.

00:02:23   - Boo, you can thank Tesla for that.

00:02:26   - Yep, I have had a sunroof on almost every car I've owned

00:02:30   and I love a sunroof.

00:02:32   I use it all the time in the winter.

00:02:33   I don't use it at all in the summer

00:02:34   because I don't have enough hair

00:02:35   and so I mostly just keep it closed

00:02:38   or if I do open it, I have to wear a hat and that sucks.

00:02:41   So in the summer, I don't use it at all.

00:02:44   In the winter, I use it all the time

00:02:46   because it's nice enough out that I wanna get

00:02:49   some fresh air blowing in,

00:02:50   but if I opened up the side windows,

00:02:52   it would be too harsh,

00:02:53   and it would be too cold on my face or whatever.

00:02:56   So I know that the days of me having a sunroof

00:03:01   are probably limited,

00:03:02   and I want to enjoy them while I have them.

00:03:04   But anyway, there goes that.

00:03:07   - I don't think they're that limited,

00:03:08   because it's like next to impossible,

00:03:10   this is why Casey's Friends I'm sure is playing,

00:03:11   it's next to impossible to find a car

00:03:13   that doesn't require you to have a sunroof,

00:03:15   except for EVs that do the stupid glass roof thing,

00:03:19   but I don't think they're going anywhere.

00:03:20   Like if anything, the ability to find a car without them

00:03:24   is disappearing faster.

00:03:26   It's just that in the weird corner of the market

00:03:28   that is EVs trying to copy Tesla,

00:03:30   they all want to do the stupid panoramic glass thing,

00:03:32   which I've never had a car with that,

00:03:34   but like it always seems to me that,

00:03:36   I mean, maybe it's cheaper or something.

00:03:37   I don't quite understand the motivation.

00:03:39   I know it seems cool and everything,

00:03:40   but all of them have to do something pretty drastic

00:03:43   to prevent the car from becoming a giant boiling fishbowl.

00:03:46   So they're either like super duper tinted.

00:03:49   - Yeah, they're heavily tinted usually.

00:03:51   So like it's more like you're watching a screen of the sky.

00:03:55   You know, it's not, you're not really feeling

00:03:56   like you're out in the open.

00:03:57   Like now there is one area where it helps a little bit.

00:04:01   Well, there's two areas where it helps.

00:04:02   One that doesn't matter to me, which is headroom.

00:04:05   Which is never something I need.

00:04:07   - Yeah, I mean that, and to be clear,

00:04:09   that is one of the reasons I dislike sunroofs,

00:04:10   because once you put one on a car,

00:04:12   I can no longer fit in it without my hair

00:04:13   hitting the headliner.

00:04:14   - Right, 'cause you have very tall hair.

00:04:16   - I wish, not anymore so much.

00:04:18   (laughing)

00:04:19   - It happens, man.

00:04:21   But yeah, and the other thing is,

00:04:23   I do like when you have more visibility

00:04:26   if the windshield goes higher up,

00:04:29   and then if you're stopped,

00:04:31   if you're the very first car at a traffic light,

00:04:33   sometimes you can't see the traffic light

00:04:35   'cause your own--

00:04:36   - Try being tall, it makes it so much worse.

00:04:38   - Right, and so the sunroofless designs

00:04:41   use more glass, oftentimes improve that.

00:04:44   But they put so much dark tinting though.

00:04:46   The ones that have glass, like the Model X where the windshield basically continues all

00:04:49   the way up to the roof, it's so dark tinted, it might as well be a metal beam across there.

00:04:54   I don't think you could see a traffic light through the amount of dark they tinted that.

00:04:57   The other thing they do in the fancy ones is they have the LCD type liquid crystal thing

00:05:01   that you can darken it electronically.

00:05:05   The bottom line is you can't just have it clear glass open all the time because you'll

00:05:08   boil in the car and no one wants sun in their face.

00:05:10   So there has to be some way to either darken it electronically or it has to be pretty darn

00:05:15   dark all the time.

00:05:16   And at that point, why bother?

00:05:17   It almost makes the 80s version of, I don't know what the correct words for this are,

00:05:21   but it would have a clear glass pane that slides in and out.

00:05:25   Then it would also sometimes have a tilted thing that you could slide underneath the

00:05:29   clear glass pane to darken it.

00:05:31   And then it would have a carpeted thing that you would slide over it that makes it just

00:05:34   roof, right?

00:05:35   You know what I mean?

00:05:36   Inside the car.

00:05:37   You know completely open to the outside clear glass to the outside tinted glass to the outside

00:05:42   No visibility to the outside and that is very passé

00:05:45   They don't make ones like that anymore because it's just I know 280s and also the other thing like with your you know

00:05:50   Oh, it doesn't open sometimes and other real and more people had problems. This is like the

00:05:54   The adolescent acne of sunroofs the real element that you'll get of course is they will start leaking water into your car eventually

00:06:02   And that's that's the real joy of the sunroof

00:06:04   as your car gets older, if you still own it,

00:06:07   eventually the sunroof does not keep the weather out.

00:06:10   - It's like I'm in that group chat all over again.

00:06:13   I'm so happy.

00:06:14   - But I love the sunroof.

00:06:16   And usually, with this one exception,

00:06:18   I've never had a problem with any of them before.

00:06:20   I've never had one fail, I've never had one leak.

00:06:23   - You don't keep a car long enough for them to leak.

00:06:26   - Yeah, well, I mean, the Model S is, at this point,

00:06:29   almost six years old, five years old, something like that.

00:06:31   And I know it's not like super old,

00:06:34   but it's younger than your Mac Pro.

00:06:36   (laughing)

00:06:38   But still, I don't know.

00:06:40   I'm gonna miss, when I inevitably get

00:06:43   whatever electric thing I go with next,

00:06:45   I am going to miss the sunroof.

00:06:47   But if it causes me to have to be in repair constantly,

00:06:49   maybe I'll miss it less, I don't know.

00:06:51   - So in summary, a British car has electrical problems,

00:06:56   you don't say?

00:06:57   - I love everything else about it.

00:06:59   I'm not super loving the gas-osity of it, but--

00:07:02   - And great mileage driving around a giant rectangle.

00:07:04   - Yeah, right.

00:07:05   (laughing)

00:07:07   - I'm a little surprised you're not driving to Jersey

00:07:09   so they can pump it for you.

00:07:10   - Yeah, 'cause I forgot how.

00:07:12   - Yeah, yeah.

00:07:12   Jersey's so weird.

00:07:15   Anyway, no, I'm sad to hear that your sunroof is broken

00:07:19   and I hope that the repair, whatever it may be,

00:07:21   is gentle, easy, and under warranty.

00:07:24   And it probably will be a warranty,

00:07:26   but may not be gentle or easy, so we'll see what happens.

00:07:30   - And still, you know, I have to like go do it.

00:07:31   That's the biggest pain in the butt.

00:07:33   Even when you have warranty, that's nice and all,

00:07:35   but you still have to schedule the thing.

00:07:37   Take a day to go get it done.

00:07:40   It's all the pain in the butt part of it.

00:07:42   It doesn't just happen for free.

00:07:44   It's like whenever there's some flaw with an Apple product

00:07:47   and they eventually, very reluctantly, very slowly,

00:07:51   after way too long, do some kind of repair program.

00:07:53   Everyone's like, oh, problem solved.

00:07:54   It's like, well, no, it's not.

00:07:55   I still have to send it in and go without it for a while

00:07:59   and arranged things around my life to make that happen.

00:08:03   Just because a company has a way to service a problem

00:08:07   doesn't mean the problem is gone.

00:08:09   It just means that it might cost you less

00:08:13   than it otherwise would if you had to either replace

00:08:16   the whole thing or pay for the repair yourself.

00:08:17   But it's still an annoying problem that's going to cost

00:08:20   you time out of your life.

00:08:22   I remember the recent episodes of your Daily Lex,

00:08:25   Lex Friedman's podcast.

00:08:26   No, not that one, the good one.

00:08:30   He was complaining that he had something like a repair

00:08:33   under warranty on his car, needed a new part or whatever.

00:08:35   And he had to drive it there.

00:08:37   He drove it to the dealer three times.

00:08:40   And three times he got there and said,

00:08:41   oh, we don't have the part.

00:08:42   Because after the first time, of course,

00:08:44   after the first time, he would confirm, OK,

00:08:46   so you have the part now, right?

00:08:47   Because last time I took my car there, and I came,

00:08:49   and you said you didn't have the part.

00:08:50   You have the part?

00:08:50   No, we totally have the part.

00:08:51   Come on in.

00:08:52   He comes in, they go, we don't have the part.

00:08:53   That happened three times.

00:08:55   - And it's a Tesla dealer.

00:08:57   - Yeah, well, surprise, yes.

00:08:58   - Oh. - It is a Tesla dealer.

00:08:59   - Tesla with some kind of logistical thing

00:09:01   where the dealers don't know what they're doing

00:09:02   or don't have parts?

00:09:04   - 'Cause like you never know who you're talking to

00:09:05   on the phone or who you're texting to.

00:09:07   Like, oh yeah, no, we totally have the part, come right in.

00:09:09   But that's not the person who's at the dealer

00:09:11   staring at the part.

00:09:12   Who knows where that person is or what, you know,

00:09:14   it's all-- - Oh, man.

00:09:15   - It's all electronic, yeah, not fun.

00:09:17   (electronic beeping)

00:09:19   - Let's talk about how wrong you are

00:09:21   about audio stuff, Marco.

00:09:22   That's fun for me. (laughing)

00:09:23   Samuel Polay writes, "Atmos and 7.1 channel sound is often the priority mix for sound

00:09:29   mixers today.

00:09:30   For a brand new movie, the audio team is taking multichannel and spatial audio into account

00:09:34   first, and then downmixing to everything else.

00:09:37   Even a 5.1 system can suffer from loss of detail in downmixing depending what movie

00:09:42   you're watching.

00:09:43   Since Marco insists on a 2.1 setup, he's losing detail more when he watches a new movie or

00:09:48   show than basically anyone."

00:09:50   - It's a good thing that never happens,

00:09:51   that Marco watches a new movie or show.

00:09:53   (laughing)

00:09:55   - Well done.

00:09:56   - And we got a lot of feedback on this,

00:09:58   and this has basically,

00:09:58   this has been John's argument for a long time,

00:10:00   that because, especially in particular,

00:10:02   because the center channel is so important

00:10:04   for things like dialogue,

00:10:06   that I'm apparently missing everything out,

00:10:07   but first of all, my speakers are not the only situation

00:10:12   in which a movie consumer might need a stereo mix.

00:10:16   It turns out, a lot of people watch movies

00:10:18   on tablets, phones, headphones.

00:10:22   It turns out many people use stereo mixes.

00:10:24   Well, but spatial audio covers those.

00:10:27   Because if they have spatial audio on their headphones,

00:10:29   which you do if you have an Apple device,

00:10:31   then I know it's only two things in your ears.

00:10:33   But my understanding is that what you're getting there

00:10:35   is not a down-mixed process thing,

00:10:37   but the spatial audio track for that thing

00:10:40   plays in spatial audio.

00:10:41   Maybe I'm wrong.

00:10:42   Maybe there is a separate processing step.

00:10:44   But anyway, Apple advertises spatial audio

00:10:46   which I hate by the way, I don't like special honeycomb movies. Yeah, but you know, yeah down mixing is a fact of life

00:10:53   But we're saying that if you have a you know

00:10:54   A setup where you're sitting in front of your big TV to watch a fancy movie, which again Marco doesn't do that often

00:10:59   You know you are something in the system is trying to down mix and make sense out of it

00:11:04   It's kind of the opposite of the way

00:11:06   It used to be when when quote unquote surround sound first came out all the movies were mastered in stereo and you had all these weird

00:11:14   standards and techniques to take a stereo mix and try to turn it into surround sound and they're all so bad because I mean

00:11:21   What are they gonna do? They have to figure out this sound this portion of this sound?

00:11:25   We should make sound like it's more behind you and it's just all guesswork, right?

00:11:29   Whereas now and we say when we say they're mixed for five point one if people think of like a big stew where they're throwing

00:11:35   ingredients together and mixing it

00:11:36   No, what we mean is they have soundtracks for every individual speaker

00:11:41   They say this is the sound that plays on the speaker and then this sound plays on the speaker and like

00:11:44   Individual sounds that play on individual speakers, obviously, they all come together to make the sound of the soundtrack

00:11:50   But it's not like there's something doling out the sound in little pieces

00:11:53   It's multiple tracks

00:11:55   And so when you have the number of tracks equal to the number of speakers

00:11:59   Like if there's a 5.1 mix on your blu-ray and you have 5.1 speakers

00:12:02   It says okay

00:12:04   The speaker gets this track the speaker gets this track and just doles out straight sound directly to those speakers and it there's

00:12:10   much less guesswork than, you know,

00:12:13   here's a stereo mix, try to put it out on seven speakers.

00:12:15   Good luck.

00:12:16   - Yeah, but also, like, and I know, like, you know,

00:12:20   more modern systems like Atmos are even more complicated

00:12:22   and actually, you know, are kind of more abstracted

00:12:24   in certain ways, but, you know, ultimately,

00:12:27   a 2.1 setup, if the only way, if the main way

00:12:30   it's gonna fail, look, I don't care if it doesn't sound

00:12:32   like it's coming from behind me, I don't care,

00:12:34   but if the main way it fails is in center channel mixing,

00:12:37   well, that to me doesn't hold a ton of water

00:12:40   because it's really easy to down mix

00:12:43   a center channel into stereo.

00:12:46   You just send it equally to both channels.

00:12:48   It's fine, it's super easy.

00:12:51   That's why, like most podcasts are generally issued in mono.

00:12:55   Does that mean that you have to have a speaker

00:12:57   on your forehead to hear most podcasts?

00:12:59   No, you hear them in your ears

00:13:01   because we just send the same data to both channels

00:13:03   and it's fine.

00:13:04   - So the lack of center channel,

00:13:06   the complaint that we got in email

00:13:07   is that if you have stereo speakers

00:13:08   and you get the virtual center from the stereo speakers,

00:13:10   it sounds great as long as you are sitting

00:13:12   in the sweet spot between the speakers.

00:13:13   But if you have a bunch of couches

00:13:15   and somebody's way on the left or way on the right,

00:13:17   the center channel doesn't work for them anymore

00:13:18   because they're way closer to the left speaker

00:13:20   than the right speaker.

00:13:21   Whereas if there was an actual center channel,

00:13:23   no matter where they sit, it would sound like

00:13:25   the dialer that's coming out of the television,

00:13:26   you know, where the people's pictures are,

00:13:28   but the mouth's moving, right?

00:13:29   It will, you know, if you're way to the left

00:13:31   and the TV is to your right, you'll, you know,

00:13:33   like the sound, basically the sound always sounds

00:13:34   like it's coming from the TV.

00:13:35   Whereas if they're trying to do virtual surround

00:13:37   and you're sitting way to the left,

00:13:38   it doesn't sound like the sound

00:13:39   is coming out of the TV anymore.

00:13:41   It sounds like it's coming from the left speaker more,

00:13:43   because it is.

00:13:43   - I would say if that is a problem for you,

00:13:45   you're either sitting way too far off to the side,

00:13:48   or your speakers have too little spread in their coverage.

00:13:52   That's not a fault of it being a 2.1 setup.

00:13:57   That's just a bad situation in the room, or a bad speaker.

00:14:02   - No, it is a fault of it being a 2.1,

00:14:03   because the sound is not coming from the TV,

00:14:05   and the only way to make it sound like

00:14:07   that's coming from the TV is for you to be equally distant

00:14:09   from the two side speakers, right?

00:14:12   I mean, it's not the end of the world.

00:14:14   - Yeah, there's a lot of squish in that argument.

00:14:18   You could be like, if there's two people sitting on a couch,

00:14:20   well, they can't both be perfectly centered,

00:14:23   but you're gonna be close enough

00:14:25   for most distances from a TV, you'll be fine.

00:14:27   And if you're sitting all the way off to one side,

00:14:30   if there's a couch in the middle,

00:14:32   and then a side chair off to one side,

00:14:34   a lot of living room setups,

00:14:35   Well, if you're sitting in that side chair,

00:14:37   nothing's gonna be positioned correctly for you anyway.

00:14:38   You can barely even see the TV.

00:14:40   - No, but if you have a center channel,

00:14:41   if you're in that side chair,

00:14:42   the sound of people talking will still sound like

00:14:45   it's coming from the pictures of their faces,

00:14:46   because the center channel speaker

00:14:48   is directly under or over the TV.

00:14:51   - Anyway, if I haven't lost anybody, everybody yet,

00:14:56   I might lose you with this,

00:14:57   that this might all be somewhat moot,

00:14:59   because I listen to processed versions of movie sound anyway,

00:15:02   because I keep my Apple TV setting on

00:15:05   where it has the basically dynamic range compression setting

00:15:08   that's called something like reduce loud sounds.

00:15:11   I keep that on all the time on my Apple TV.

00:15:12   I watch everything with that setting on

00:15:14   because I find the dynamic range of most things

00:15:17   to be far too much for my home,

00:15:20   where I'm like we have oftentimes a sleeping child

00:15:24   downstairs while we're trying to watch something

00:15:26   or I just don't want, I want the volume on the dialogue

00:15:30   to be as loud as everything else

00:15:31   because that is what I'm trying to hear,

00:15:33   and it's not because I'm missing a stereo mix,

00:15:35   it's because I don't want the soundtrack to be

00:15:38   bumpin' up and aya, this big loud thing,

00:15:40   and then people are whispering in the middle of it,

00:15:42   hey, what, did you hear about this thing that we did?

00:15:44   And it's like, oh my god, what, what are you saying?

00:15:46   And that's not the fault of the mix,

00:15:48   that's the fault of, or rather,

00:15:49   that's not the fault of me not having a center channel,

00:15:51   that's just the fault of the way

00:15:52   things are mastered these days.

00:15:53   - Well, if you had a center channel,

00:15:54   you could just crank up the center channel,

00:15:55   but anyway, all receivers have that same mode

00:15:57   of dynamic range compression and stuff like that,

00:16:00   that's not an Apple TV exclusive feature.

00:16:02   So your stereo speakers aren't the thing

00:16:04   that's giving you that.

00:16:05   It's just having basic AV equipment.

00:16:07   - All right, I was talking to somebody,

00:16:09   I don't remember who it was now, that was saying,

00:16:12   this person was saying, "I am in full support

00:16:15   "of the principle of Jon saying, 'Oh, get a receiver

00:16:18   "'and get a bunch of speakers,' and so on and so forth.

00:16:19   "But I just don't have space in my life for a receiver

00:16:23   "and wiring everything," and so on and so forth.

00:16:25   And I, now Casey, I feel the same way.

00:16:28   I just, I don't argue that John's setup

00:16:31   surely sounds better than--

00:16:33   - You have plenty of room, Casey, that's not why.

00:16:35   - No, no, it's not the lack of room.

00:16:37   I just don't wanna deal with it.

00:16:38   I don't wanna wire it, I don't wanna deal with it.

00:16:40   - I would argue that dealing with your Sonos stuff

00:16:41   is pretty close, but--

00:16:43   - How so?

00:16:44   All I have to do is plug it into the wall.

00:16:45   - 'Cause they're little computers,

00:16:46   they're pretty complicated.

00:16:47   - Yeah, but I never have to think about it.

00:16:48   You know, here's the thing.

00:16:50   There are companies that make things just work.

00:16:52   We used to know of one, and then they stopped doing that.

00:16:55   I can't remember the name of it,

00:16:56   it was like Banana or something, but anyways.

00:16:58   But Sonos stuff really does just work,

00:17:01   or at least it has so far in the three or four months

00:17:04   that I've had it.

00:17:05   So I take your point, Jon, but it really was plug it in

00:17:08   and then never think about it again.

00:17:10   - So speaking of that,

00:17:11   this next item here is about this.

00:17:13   So this is something that I didn't bring up

00:17:15   in the last show.

00:17:16   And there's a reason which we'll get to pretty soon

00:17:19   of why I didn't go this route,

00:17:20   but this would actually be an ideal setup for my scenario.

00:17:24   So my scenario is I have a room

00:17:27   that is not arranged in any sane way

00:17:29   that any person would arrange it.

00:17:30   So my speakers and my television position

00:17:32   and my seating positions are just messed up.

00:17:34   They are nothing is aligned the way you would want it to be

00:17:36   in one of those home theater setup situations.

00:17:38   It's challenging, right?

00:17:39   And so my sound and everything about it,

00:17:42   ergonomically sound wise, it's never going to be right.

00:17:45   There's nothing I can do about it

00:17:47   because it's just the way my house is, whatever.

00:17:49   So this system I'm gonna describe

00:17:51   as a Sony HT-A9 home theater system solves that problem

00:17:55   in a way that I kind of wish HomePods did.

00:17:57   So HomePods, we all like, we talked about it last time,

00:17:59   they're radially symmetrical,

00:18:01   you just plop it wherever the hell you want in the room.

00:18:03   It doesn't matter where you are relative to the HomePod

00:18:05   because it has speakers facing in all directions, right?

00:18:09   And the subwoofer faces either up or down,

00:18:10   I still don't know.

00:18:12   So, and then it has microphones and it adjusts itself

00:18:16   based on where you've placed it when it has accelerometers

00:18:19   to know, okay, if they put me in a new position,

00:18:20   it will adjust its sound as best it can

00:18:23   to make the best of wherever the heck you put it.

00:18:25   That's exactly what I need in my weird cattywampus room

00:18:28   where everything's on angles, my TV's in the corner

00:18:31   and the couch is on the other wall on an angle from it

00:18:34   and there's no way to get things in the right position.

00:18:37   So I would love, let's say, four HomePods plus a subwoofer

00:18:41   without audio delay to plop these little things

00:18:44   in the places where I can fit them in my room

00:18:47   because I can't fit them in any same position.

00:18:48   It's like, well, this is the only place I have

00:18:50   for this speaker and HomePods are good for that.

00:18:51   They're small.

00:18:52   I mean, my problem is I don't have power

00:18:54   to a lot of the places, which as I said,

00:18:55   is why I kind of appreciate being able

00:18:57   to just run speaker wire to my backs

00:18:58   because I don't have a place to plug in a HomePod,

00:19:01   but set that aside.

00:19:02   Put a smallish thing wherever you can fit them

00:19:04   and just say, computers, you figure it out, right?

00:19:08   That's another reason that I use the Dirac Live thing

00:19:12   on my receiver.

00:19:13   I put the little microphone where my head is on my couch

00:19:15   and I say, I know the speaker's in the wrong place, Dirac,

00:19:18   but do your best to make it reasonable.

00:19:20   and then you put the microphone in 20 other places,

00:19:23   and it's not great, right?

00:19:25   The Sony HT-9 system does that thing.

00:19:29   You buy this, you get a bunch of these Sony speakers,

00:19:31   which look kinda like tall, bigger home pods

00:19:33   that are less fuzzy.

00:19:34   You put them wherever the hell you feel like in your room,

00:19:36   you get four of them, which sounds like a weird number.

00:19:39   I was like, "I get four for a home theater setup?

00:19:42   Okay."

00:19:42   And you just put the four,

00:19:44   kind of one in each kind of corner of the room,

00:19:48   and then you have to get a subwoofer for this

00:19:50   if you want decent sound because these small speakers have no bass because they're smallish,

00:19:54   right?

00:19:55   And then what they come with, kind of like the Sonos, is you come up with these four

00:19:59   speakers and a little black box that looks like an Apple TV but bigger, right?

00:20:03   And you plug HDMI into that and Ethernet into that, so you don't need a receiver, it's just

00:20:07   these four speakers, this Apple TV type box, and then the subwoofer, right?

00:20:12   And it just figures it out.

00:20:13   It runs a bunch of sound tests, it bounces sound around, all the speakers have microphones

00:20:17   in them, and it just figures out how to make surround.

00:20:20   And this is the type of thing you would think, "Oh, that's great for people who are in a

00:20:23   compromised situation, but this is always going to sound like garbage."

00:20:26   And I mostly dismiss these things for two reasons.

00:20:28   One, it sounds kind of janky, and it's like, "That can't possibly be good."

00:20:31   And two, the cost of the system I just described to you is $2,700.

00:20:37   Not saving any money.

00:20:38   It's like, "What?

00:20:39   I'm just going to buy a real receiver and individual speakers once I'm spending that

00:20:43   much money."

00:20:45   But I have to say that I watched one of my preferred audio review channels on YouTube,

00:20:51   Andrew Robinson's channel, am I getting his name right?

00:20:53   We'll put a link in the show notes.

00:20:55   And he listens to all sorts of the fancy high-end systems that nobody can afford or whatever.

00:21:00   And he was mightily impressed by the system.

00:21:02   I watched a bunch of other reviews too.

00:21:05   This Sony setup, yes, it cost $2,700, but according to this review, it sounds almost

00:21:10   as good as systems that would cost you like $4,000 if you bought them with individual

00:21:14   components and it doesn't make you have to have a receiver which Casey doesn't want in

00:21:18   his life.

00:21:19   I already have a receiver so it's not great for me.

00:21:23   But they say that the, you know, again with four things, no center, right?

00:21:26   But with four channels, how does it do it?

00:21:28   It's all, it's like computational photography for audio.

00:21:30   It's all doing what the home pod is going to do and he was just absolutely amazed that

00:21:34   it can make the sound sound like they're coming from all directions including the center and

00:21:38   the sides and height things and you know each one of these speaker things has, I don't know

00:21:42   I don't know if it has speaker cones facing in all directions, but it's got speakers facing

00:21:46   in a bunch of different directions and apparently is incredibly convincing.

00:21:49   The other reason I wouldn't find this appealing for me, aside from the price, which is a lot,

00:21:54   is that it does what they call in the video the "smile curve" where it super boosts the

00:21:59   bass and also boosts the treble, which sounds exciting and dramatic for movies, but even

00:22:06   for movies, that's not what I prefer.

00:22:08   I prefer something flatter than that.

00:22:10   It sounds impressive in showrooms and it's kind of what people like and I bet it's what

00:22:14   a lot of movie theaters do, you know, because you know, boomy bass and real high treble,

00:22:18   but it cuts out the middle of, you know, it makes everything in the middle kind of sound

00:22:21   murky.

00:22:24   If people like that curve, get this system because if you have, it's cheaper, you can't

00:22:29   get it as something that sounds better for less money if what you're interested in is

00:22:33   watching movies.

00:22:34   But if you want to play music, you really don't want your music going through an EQ

00:22:37   like that, I would imagine.

00:22:38   Even though some people find that "exciting", I think it just sounds wrong.

00:22:42   It can be fun, but it's, yeah.

00:22:45   Typically, if you're boosting the bass and treble that much in processing, usually you're

00:22:50   doing it because the speaker's natural responses in those areas are not very good.

00:22:56   If you have a really nicely engineered speaker, if it produces enough bass, if it's big enough

00:23:01   to produce enough bass, if the tweeter is refined and well designed enough to not have

00:23:05   a whole bunch of weird distortion and be able to reproduce really good high frequencies.

00:23:10   You don't need those tricks, or you can greatly reduce them. But that's not how most people

00:23:14   design things.

00:23:16   I think these speakers are reasonable quality, but for movies in particular, what people

00:23:22   consider to be exciting movie experience is the bass is very boomy and the highs are very

00:23:28   sparkly. And especially with this system, the whole trick of this system is it will

00:23:32   really make it sound like the sound is coming from all around you like they you know immersive

00:23:37   or whatever you want to call it but just we'll get to it in a second the sonus product that

00:23:40   has that right in the name that's what you feel in a movie theater where they have 17

00:23:44   speakers and you know the sound is really coming from all around you and you can watch

00:23:48   the review the person who's reviewing was saying even with their expensive multi many

00:23:52   many thousand dollar setups they were hearing things they never heard before in the mixes

00:23:55   of movies that they were watching probably because they're being cranked up artificially

00:23:59   by the curve that this thing puts out.

00:24:00   The other thing that's bad about the Sony HD9 is that you can't really mess with the

00:24:05   audio too much.

00:24:06   If you don't like what the Sony thing is doing with it, you have minor control over how much

00:24:10   bass you want, so you can turn down the bass, but you can't really say, "Can you give me

00:24:15   a more flat response curve and not overboost the treble that much?"

00:24:20   You basically have a bass up and down thing and a couple of different modes, and only

00:24:24   one of the modes is any good anyway.

00:24:26   But I was impressed at this audio reviewer that I've been watching for a long time was

00:24:31   impressed with this Sony thing that seems like it should be garbage but is actually

00:24:34   kind of ideal.

00:24:36   If you don't want to deal with a receiver and have a room that is weird and you can't

00:24:41   put the speakers in the right places, this thing will figure it out.

00:24:43   It makes me wish I could just get that at my house and try it because I think watching

00:24:46   a movie with it would be kind of fun.

00:24:49   But I don't know if I'd want to watch a TV show of people talking with that type of setup,

00:24:53   that type of curve because that's just too weird.

00:24:56   I think I need something more neutral.

00:24:59   The reason I'm watching this is I've been shopping around for speakers to see if I can

00:25:01   upgrade my cruddy speakers to be slightly less cruddy, but as always my constraint is

00:25:06   like how much space do I have to put these and I don't want to spend tons and tons of

00:25:11   money on it because they're not going to be in the right place anyway.

00:25:13   And that's kind of limiting me because I look at the speaker and I'm like "oh, this speaker

00:25:16   gets good reviews" but that's for a room where the speaker is facing the right direction

00:25:19   at the right height and I can't do that.

00:25:21   So I don't know, maybe I'll end up coming back to the Sony thing.

00:25:24   If I did, it would basically have to bypass my receiver, which would be a giant waste

00:25:27   of money.

00:25:28   But I'm still thinking about it.

00:25:30   Anyway, the Sonos Premium Immersive is the link that Casey put in here, which is a similar

00:25:34   type thing where you buy this thing from Sonos and it gives you all the things you need for

00:25:38   home theater.

00:25:39   It gives you a soundbar for the front instead of having a center, rear, and right.

00:25:41   And it has the back channels and it has the Sonos Arc subwoofer, which is pretty good.

00:25:46   Now the Sonos Sub Gen 3, the Arc is the soundbar.

00:25:48   Oh, that's right.

00:25:49   Now what is, what is, yeah, it's just called Sonos Sub.

00:25:51   the big one looks like a big cheerio.

00:25:53   Which is a very good subwoofer in my opinion.

00:25:56   It's force cancelling and there are almost no home theatre force cancelling subwoofers

00:26:01   that exist on the market.

00:26:04   As far as I know it's by far the cheapest one.

00:26:06   Yeah, and this setup I would imagine, I've seen reviews of this setup not on this exact

00:26:11   channel but other things.

00:26:12   The Sony one, obviously it's like $800 more than this so it better sound better, but I

00:26:17   I think it does just because the speakers themselves, certainly the speakers are all

00:26:23   the same size in the Sony, but all of them are bigger than the bar or the back surrounds

00:26:28   in this thing.

00:26:29   So they have bigger cones in them, more speaker drivers in them, and obviously you can get

00:26:33   better separation when you can put those four things in the corners of your room instead

00:26:36   of having a soundbar right under the TV.

00:26:39   So I feel like the Sony thing is the better choice if what you want is movies, but if

00:26:43   you want to listen to music, probably the Sonos is better.

00:26:46   Well, and that's the thing is for us, it was more than just a home theater.

00:26:51   And then I think now I'm starting to come back into home pod territory.

00:26:55   But to finish my thought, you know, we do use the home theater, the Sonos premium immersive

00:27:01   set, or whatever it's called.

00:27:02   We do use that to watch TV and to watch movies, but it is probably just as often, if not more

00:27:08   often, that it's just playing music ambiently in the house.

00:27:11   where Sonos does extremely well is being able to

00:27:15   consistently, and here's a word you don't hear from Apple recently,

00:27:19   reliably move sound between speakers and have it playing in different places and so on and so forth.

00:27:26   And if I wanted to I could do this using AirPlay 2, which all the Sonos stuff supports,

00:27:30   but I find it's just as easy and in most cases I prefer

00:27:35   to use the Sonos app to look up whatever it is I want to play and then have it take over.

00:27:41   So my phone is none the wiser as to what's going on. It's not serving in any capacity,

00:27:47   you know, the playlist that I'm listening to. My phone is completely ignorant of it

00:27:52   and the Sonos is just taking care of everything on its own. And again, adding or removing speakers,

00:27:56   these are all things that can be done with HomePods and can be done with AirPlay.

00:27:59   I'm not saying it's unique to Sonos, but it works a hundred percent of the time,

00:28:04   every time which in my experience with Airplay is not the case. I don't have home pods,

00:28:09   I've never had a home pod. So... -Oh, they don't work 100% of the time, don't worry. -Okay, never mind.

00:28:13   -You are not over speaking here, trust me. -Okay, well, I was willing to give the home pod the benefit of the doubt.

00:28:19   -Nope. -There you go. So, again, I'm not saying the Sonos stuff is for everyone. All I'm saying is for my needs,

00:28:26   I didn't want to have a receiver. I wanted to not have to string wires across the room.

00:28:31   I wanted it to be able to play nicely with other speakers because you know we effectively have three zones

00:28:37   We have the main living room. We have the porch, and then we also have little portable little it's the Sonos

00:28:44   Rome the littler of their portable speakers a little Toblerone bar

00:28:48   Yeah, yeah, exactly which by the way sounds phenomenal for a speaker of that size like you know

00:28:54   I'm grading on a tremendous curve here

00:28:56   but given how small it is, it sounds very good.

00:28:59   Now in the grand scheme of things,

00:29:00   is it a particularly great speaker?

00:29:01   Well, not really, but given how small it is,

00:29:04   I've been quite surprised how good it sounds to my ears,

00:29:07   but that's neither here nor there.

00:29:08   The point I'm driving at is for my setup,

00:29:10   the Sonos stuff was really, really nice,

00:29:12   but that being said, if I cared more about TV

00:29:16   and almost none about music,

00:29:17   which is what Jon was saying a moment ago,

00:29:19   I watched that video that we'll link in the show notes

00:29:21   by that Andrew, whatever his name is,

00:29:23   And if this fella seemed like he knew what he was talking about, I was not familiar with his work at all.

00:29:28   Seemed like he knew what he was talking about, and again, to reiterate what Jon said,

00:29:32   seemed really impressed by the Sony setup.

00:29:35   So if I was in a position that I didn't really care that much about music,

00:29:38   which I think is, of the three of us, probably more Jon than anyone,

00:29:42   and forgive me if I'm unfairly putting words in your mouth,

00:29:45   then I think the Sony setup, again, you know, not worrying about

00:29:49   where you're getting power for those rear speakers and whatnot,

00:29:51   It does sound damn compelling.

00:29:53   - Yeah, the video is even more compelling

00:29:56   if you know this guy, because he does,

00:29:58   he's not like a high-end audiophile

00:30:00   like Magic Gold Cables kind of person,

00:30:02   but he does test speakers that cost

00:30:04   like as much as a car and everything.

00:30:05   So like he's heard it all.

00:30:06   He's not coming from like,

00:30:07   "Oh, I just test consumer electronics

00:30:09   "and these things sound pretty good to me."

00:30:10   Like he's heard all the good fancy speakers

00:30:13   and he has particular tastes,

00:30:14   and his wife is also in the videos

00:30:16   with her opinion of these things.

00:30:18   And the fact that he was impressed by these things

00:30:20   at the price, which is not a low price, you know, $27 is not a low price, uh, really shocked

00:30:25   me because most of the time when he reviews stuff like this, he's like, buy real speakers.

00:30:29   Like this is not it. Right. Um, so, you know, I, I came away with a newfound respect for

00:30:34   a system that I had previously dismissed. And honestly at $2,700, I think I would, because

00:30:39   my setup does not cost that much. Right. I wouldn't, I don't think I'd be able to choke

00:30:43   down that price unless I was pretty sure I was going to like it. And like I said, I would

00:30:47   not buy this. I don't really listen to music, but I don't like that smile type curve, even

00:30:51   for movies, and especially not for TV shows that are not movies. Like, I'm sure it makes

00:30:56   for an impressive demo, and if you only watch action movies, this is the setup to get for

00:31:00   $2700, because you can't beat it. But I watch things other than action movies, I watch television

00:31:05   shows, and I don't want boosted bass and boosted treble in an unadjustable fashion on all the

00:31:11   stuff that I watch. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I should just get this and try

00:31:13   it in my house. I don't know, if Sony wants to send me a review unit I will gladly test

00:31:17   it out. But Sony's not listening, that's never going to happen.

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00:33:23   - All right, so Andy Galletly writes,

00:33:29   "Your HomePod reviews got me thinking about the age

00:33:31   "of the chip in our Apple TV 4th Gen from 2017.

00:33:35   "Would I notice a difference if I upgrade

00:33:36   "to a new 4K Apple TV?

00:33:39   "We don't have a 4K TV,

00:33:40   and I don't really mind the old remote,

00:33:42   maybe we're missing out on a decent speed bump.

00:33:45   Maybe, I don't know.

00:33:46   I don't feel like for me and the things

00:33:48   that I have done with the Apple TV,

00:33:50   I don't feel like I've ever longed for processing power,

00:33:53   but am I missing the boat?

00:33:54   What's the right answer here?

00:33:56   - When going from the HD family to the 4K family,

00:34:00   I did notice a pretty significant upgrade

00:34:04   in just general menu performance, stuff like that,

00:34:08   just like going in and out of stuff, opening apps,

00:34:10   going between menus, I did notice a faster performance there.

00:34:14   I have noticed less and less of those gains

00:34:17   as we've progressed past the initial 4K version.

00:34:20   So I think they are still to be had,

00:34:22   but you might notice them less.

00:34:24   - Yeah, so the thing about these TV boxes,

00:34:26   we've said for years that the Apple TV is just overpowered

00:34:30   for a thing that watches streaming stuff,

00:34:33   because streaming apps are built into your TVs,

00:34:35   and the processors in their TVs are garbage

00:34:37   compared to what's been in even like the last five years

00:34:40   of Apple TVs, 'cause they don't have to be,

00:34:42   particularly fancy and Apple chips are really good.

00:34:44   But the reality of any television connected boxes,

00:34:49   you spend most of your time watching video

00:34:52   and not interacting with the Apple,

00:34:53   like you have to go through a bunch of things,

00:34:55   navigate, navigate, navigate,

00:34:56   find anything you wanna watch, then you hit play.

00:34:58   And then you're just watching it for 30 minutes,

00:35:01   an hour, two hours, like however long.

00:35:03   Most of your time is spent,

00:35:04   like the performance of that stuff that happened

00:35:07   in the hopefully one minute to two and a half minutes,

00:35:11   doesn't really factor in that much.

00:35:13   So that's why it always seems like it's overpowered.

00:35:16   Do I need a amazing low power processor

00:35:19   to get me to the point where I press one button

00:35:21   and then watch something for an hour?

00:35:23   No, it's kind of silly, right?

00:35:25   That said, there's two things to say.

00:35:27   Menus being faster is a thing,

00:35:29   and I think you will notice it if you upgrade

00:35:31   from a HD one to the U.S. Apple TV 4K,

00:35:34   you'll be like, oh, look, the menus are a little bit faster

00:35:36   and apps launch faster, maybe you'll notice that, right?

00:35:39   But here's the thing that really kills me with the,

00:35:41   'cause I always get the newest Apple TV,

00:35:43   I have the newest one on my TV.

00:35:44   Even though that's faster, depending on the app,

00:35:49   this is not Apple's fault, it is the fault mostly

00:35:51   of the people who make these apps,

00:35:52   but depending on the app, they are often so terrible

00:35:56   that basic functionality simply does not work

00:36:00   and is maddening.

00:36:01   Let's give some examples.

00:36:02   I want to watch something on a streaming app.

00:36:04   You launch a streaming app,

00:36:05   Setting aside all the stuff I've complained about where you can't even find the thing

00:36:08   you were watching before because that's just like, you know, intentional design to make

00:36:11   you see new stuff.

00:36:12   You know, see past episodes where we talked about it, go to hypercritical.co, read about

00:36:16   it, whatever.

00:36:17   Right?

00:36:18   Setting that aside, you find the thing you want to watch, you hit play, okay?

00:36:21   So first of all, very often in major streaming services, there'll be some kind of bug where

00:36:27   you hit play and it will just spin for a while and not play anything and you'll have to like

00:36:31   force quit the app and come back and play.

00:36:33   Right?

00:36:34   and I don't mean like one out of 10 times or whatever,

00:36:36   but if that ever happens to someone who grew up

00:36:38   with television that always worked,

00:36:39   it is incredibly frustrating.

00:36:41   You know, Prime Video, I hit play on a show,

00:36:44   you're showing me a spinner, is it ever gonna play?

00:36:47   Double tap the thing, flick up, force quit the app,

00:36:50   the Amazon Prime Video app, relaunch it, hit play,

00:36:52   oh, now it's working.

00:36:53   That should never happen, and it does.

00:36:55   I fancy your Apple Hee Hee, doesn't stop that from happening.

00:36:57   Next one, oh, a little button comes up, it says skip intro.

00:37:00   Oh, I've seen this intro a many times,

00:37:02   I want to hit skip and skip intro.

00:37:04   All right, what do I do?

00:37:04   Like the button that comes in lower right part

00:37:06   of the screen, it's a skip intro.

00:37:07   It's a big white button, right?

00:37:09   You would think, and this makes me hit the Apple TV remote.

00:37:13   All I have to do is press the action button

00:37:16   on the Apple TV remote, which on the current one

00:37:18   is like the little touch patty thing

00:37:20   that's inside the thing.

00:37:21   Every time I do this, it makes me think,

00:37:23   should I go into settings and turn off the touch pad

00:37:25   entirely because I just want to press that button.

00:37:27   I want to press that button so I can do skip intro.

00:37:30   But if you press that button and your thumb moves a little bit when you press it because you're not perfectly up and down,

00:37:34   it's like, "Oh, I think you're swiping."

00:37:36   It does some crazy thing that you didn't want it to do.

00:37:39   But say I'm successful. I have it on a flat level surface, I come in from above like a robot and go,

00:37:44   "Okay, I'm gonna press the center button. This is not a swipe, I swear, I'm just trying to press."

00:37:47   And I press it, the skip intro button.

00:37:50   What I want it to do is start playing the show after the intro.

00:37:52   But sometimes it'll freak out and start playing the show in the middle, or stop playing the show entirely and show a spinner.

00:37:57   Again, that should never happen, but it happens enough for me to get angry about it.

00:38:02   Does skip intro not work anymore?

00:38:04   All right, frequently, my whole family now, when I go to do skip intro on certain streaming

00:38:09   apps, they say, "No, don't do it.

00:38:10   We know it won't work.

00:38:11   Just try to skip past it."

00:38:13   Don't use skip intro, but skip past it with 30-second skip.

00:38:16   How do you do that on the Apple TV remote?

00:38:18   Oh, you hit the right side of the circular pad.

00:38:20   Click, click, be careful you don't swipe because that's the jog dial, and be careful you don't

00:38:23   touch the touch dial in the middle.

00:38:25   Click, click, click, 30-second skip.

00:38:27   "Oh, spinner blacked out, now it's not showing anything anymore, force quit the app."

00:38:32   The faster Apple TV doesn't help at all with any of this.

00:38:36   It is not a performance problem.

00:38:38   They're just plain buggy and crappy and don't work.

00:38:43   Sometimes it's the Hulu app, sometimes it's the Amazon Prime app.

00:38:47   I forgot what the other one that I was having a play about.

00:38:50   I don't even notice half the time which apps I'm watching things on, especially if you

00:38:52   go through the up next thing, which is the Apple Player, which is a little bit different.

00:38:56   But anyway, those problems will happen to you on your old Apple TV and on your new one,

00:39:02   and no matter how good Apple makes this hardware, it will keep happening until these app makers

00:39:07   fix their stupid applications and make them perform the basic functionality correctly.

00:39:12   It shouldn't be acceptable that my entire family yells at me not to ever hit skip intro

00:39:15   because they know from bitter experience that what that means is another 15 minutes of watching

00:39:19   me futz around with the thing to get it to play again.

00:39:21   Like literally, you have to force quit the app, come back in, go back to your profile,

00:39:25   the program again, find the episode number, never freaking remember what episode was on

00:39:28   of course, and find the correct episode, hit play on it again, don't touch skip intro,

00:39:32   we'll just sit through the intro because they're so sick of me trying it twice thinking skip

00:39:36   intro should work right?

00:39:37   It's not a complicated feature but ugh, it's maddening.

00:39:40   Anyway, this is all to say if you're comfortable with your fourth gen 2017 Apple TV, there's

00:39:48   not much reason for you to upgrade unless you're playing games on your TV.

00:39:51   It will be faster, it will be better,

00:39:52   eventually you should probably upgrade,

00:39:54   but most of the frustrations about this product

00:39:56   had nothing to do with the performance of the hardware

00:39:58   and everything to do with the quality of the software.

00:40:01   - Yep, no argument here.

00:40:03   And then tell me, Jon, about the differences

00:40:04   between the previous generation Apple TV 4K

00:40:07   and the current one, please.

00:40:08   - Speaking of hardware, now that I've said

00:40:10   that it doesn't matter, it is interesting

00:40:12   from an academic perspective to consider

00:40:14   what's inside these little Apple TV puck thingies.

00:40:17   We've talked in the past about how the Apple TV

00:40:20   was kind of expensive and yes it was higher performance than everything else but geez

00:40:24   it's so much money and these things come built into your television and you can get like

00:40:27   one of those little you know streaming sticks for so much less from a tons of other companies

00:40:31   why would anybody ever want an Apple TV it's not a great buy the new ones as we said came

00:40:36   out and they are cheaper they made an even cheaper one without Ethernet and without a

00:40:39   thread radio which is probably not the right one to buy but still even the other one is

00:40:43   cheaper and doesn't have a fan so you know thumbs up Apple you're getting closer to a

00:40:47   reasonable price.

00:40:49   But this YouTube video that we'll put in the show notes shows what it looks like on the

00:40:52   insides of these things.

00:40:54   It's comparing the second generation Apple TV 4K, which I think is the one that just

00:40:58   got replaced, and then the current generation, the third generation Apple TV 4K.

00:41:03   What do they look like on the inside?

00:41:04   And when you look in the previous one, the previous Apple TV 4K, you can see how over-engineered

00:41:12   it is inside there.

00:41:14   It was more expensive and you can see the money inside it.

00:41:18   It wasn't just like, "Oh, they just charge you, it has higher margins."

00:41:21   This thing has giant solid metal plates sandwiching all the innards and they have the little raised

00:41:28   metal things around the sets of chips so they're RF sealed into these little metal cages because

00:41:34   the solid metal sandwich plates, machined metal sandwich plates, clamp the motherboard

00:41:40   and press down on the little metal things surrounding each thing so every set of chips

00:41:45   and analog electronics is isolated from the connectors, isolated from the HDMI and everything.

00:41:50   It is so over engineered, and by the way this one has the fan underneath it, it is so incredibly

00:41:54   over engineered.

00:41:55   It's like, not if you gave someone an unlimited budget, but if you basically said, "You have

00:42:00   way more money than you need to do this.

00:42:02   What can you do with it?"

00:42:03   It's like, "Oh, I'm gonna machine some metal plates.

00:42:06   I'm gonna radio isolate these things like nobody's seeing it.

00:42:08   I know you'd do this cheaper, but I'm not.

00:42:09   I'm gonna do it the most expensive way possible.

00:42:11   Incredibly over engineered

00:42:13   and actually really cool and fascinating.

00:42:15   Then if you look at the current one,

00:42:17   it is like a piece of electronics.

00:42:18   It's got a motherboard, it's hanging out in there,

00:42:20   it's got a little RF shielding made with like a little,

00:42:22   you know, metal foil thing that covers stuff up

00:42:25   like a sticker with a plastic thing.

00:42:26   It looks like every other piece of electronics you've seen.

00:42:29   You can see where the money came from.

00:42:31   How did they save money on this?

00:42:32   It is obvious, like this is way cheaper to make,

00:42:34   there are no more machine metal plates.

00:42:36   The RF shielding is the minimum needed

00:42:38   to pass FCC, whatever things.

00:42:42   The person who was measuring it says,

00:42:43   "Hey, on the new one, you can see the signal

00:42:45   "from the various chips and power supply

00:42:47   "showing up on the HDMI output."

00:42:49   It doesn't mean that it's bad or broken or wrong

00:42:52   or incorrect or it's not going to work.

00:42:54   It is within spec of what is required to send an HDMI signal

00:42:59   and to pass all the RF shielding stuff.

00:43:02   It's fine, but it is not over-engineered

00:43:05   like the other one used to be.

00:43:06   So you wanted an Apple TV that costs less money,

00:43:08   you got one that is cheaper in both senses of the word.

00:43:12   - And then Christopher Sardegna brings to our attention

00:43:17   by writing, "In episode 520, you discussed

00:43:20   "an iCloud Photos backup solution.

00:43:21   "It worked great.

00:43:22   "On that topic, I built an open source tool

00:43:24   "to do something similar for iMessage.

00:43:26   "Now this came across my transom at some point

00:43:29   "in the last few weeks, and I haven't had a chance

00:43:30   "to play with it myself, but this looks really,

00:43:33   "really slick at a glance.

00:43:34   Have either of you had a chance to play with this?

00:43:36   - I was trying to think of why I would want

00:43:38   to export my messages, aside from like not trusting Apple

00:43:41   to keep them safe and someday they get corrupted

00:43:42   and I wanted to save them 'cause it's like

00:43:44   an archive of fun stuff.

00:43:45   And this is an area where, another area involving online

00:43:49   stuff for Google, Stomp Solve or Apple,

00:43:51   because Google makes it so easy to get any of your data

00:43:55   out of Google in a reasonable-ish format

00:43:58   whenever you want.

00:43:59   They even make it so you can schedule it

00:44:00   to come to do exports on a regular interval.

00:44:03   If you go to takeout.google.com, Google Takeout is the branded name for it.

00:44:09   You can get everything you want out of Google.

00:44:10   We've talked about it in the past.

00:44:11   I export my Gmail on a regular basis just in case my Google account ever dies or I lose

00:44:17   everything, I will have all my email messages.

00:44:20   And the stuff that's in Gmail, half of that is stuff that I imported into Gmail when I

00:44:23   signed up for it.

00:44:24   So I've got email and Gmail going back to the 90s.

00:44:28   But Apple is not so great in that.

00:44:30   The notes application, I would love to export that to backup.

00:44:33   There's a bunch of apps we've talked about on the show of like, here's how you can export

00:44:36   your notes.

00:44:37   Why is that not built in Apple?

00:44:38   Like why is there not a way for every Apple repository of data for me to export it somewhere

00:44:44   else offline to have my own copy of it?

00:44:47   The Apple way is you should never have to worry about that.

00:44:49   That's a techie concern.

00:44:51   Don't worry your little head about it.

00:44:52   We'll take care of your data.

00:44:54   Exporting stuff like that is a techie thing that we think people should not have to worry

00:44:57   about.

00:44:58   Some of us from bitter experience, it is a thing you kind of have to worry about.

00:45:01   So if you're paranoid and you really, really want to preserve all those messages, Apple

00:45:05   doesn't help you there.

00:45:06   You've got your iCloud backup where in theory everything is stored, but if something goes

00:45:09   wrong it gets corrupted or you lose your Apple ID.

00:45:12   There's so many things that can go wrong where the Apple copy of your data is inaccessible.

00:45:18   So if you really want those messages, you need some way to export it and Apple is not

00:45:21   forthcoming with the way.

00:45:22   So all these people make these things that just use the official API to get your data

00:45:25   out and put it in some format.

00:45:27   I haven't used it because I don't consider my messages

00:45:30   to be particularly precious.

00:45:32   I don't do that much tech messaging.

00:45:33   They're kind of ephemeral to me.

00:45:35   But if you feel differently, you can try this out.

00:45:38   - Yeah, I haven't tried it either,

00:45:38   but if I had a need for this kind of thing,

00:45:41   I absolutely would.

00:45:42   But yeah, I'm mostly with Jon.

00:45:44   I wish these formats were easily exportable

00:45:48   and importable back into their apps.

00:45:51   I wish there were some better, more usable

00:45:55   file system representation of them,

00:45:57   so that they could take part easily

00:45:59   in other backup formats and other file management schemes

00:46:02   that we might need some time or wanna use.

00:46:04   But that's not the world we live in right now,

00:46:06   unfortunately, with these things.

00:46:08   - I'm vaguely, do you remember,

00:46:09   didn't ADM have like an HTML-based format

00:46:11   where you could like export your conversations

00:46:13   and it would show like little,

00:46:15   I think maybe it used HTML tables or something

00:46:16   or maybe it was CSS,

00:46:17   but it would show like little speech bubbles,

00:46:19   but that was all HTML, like the speech bubbles were HTML.

00:46:21   It was so overwrought and silly,

00:46:24   but you could open these HTML files

00:46:25   and be like, oh, this is just like a big, long scrolling

00:46:28   thing that looks just like my conversation did in ADM.

00:46:31   Those days are long gone.

00:46:33   Yeah, and that was even--

00:46:34   I mean, I think even iChat might have done that.

00:46:37   And it wasn't something you had to choose to do.

00:46:39   You could just find those files on disk.

00:46:41   They were just in a folder somewhere under Library,

00:46:43   and you could just find them and copy them and read them

00:46:45   and do whatever you wanted with them.

00:46:47   And now everything is more complicated,

00:46:48   and it's based on databases, and it's

00:46:50   based on cloud syncing stuff.

00:46:52   And it's encrypted and all the--

00:46:54   - It's a vast improvement over having all your messages

00:46:56   in plain text in like a library application support folder

00:47:00   on your Mac.

00:47:01   Yeah.

00:47:02   - We had some breaking news a week ago or so,

00:47:06   so I guess it's not really breaking anymore, is it?

00:47:08   Anyway. - Broken news.

00:47:09   - Broken news, some broken news.

00:47:11   The plate was broken.

00:47:12   Apple, this is on MacRumors,

00:47:15   Apple dropping product design chief role team to report

00:47:18   to chief operating officer Jeff Williams.

00:47:21   Reading from the article,

00:47:22   Apple does not plan to name a replacement

00:47:24   for Vice President of Industrial Design, Evans Hanke,

00:47:26   when she departs the company in the coming months,

00:47:28   according to Bloomberg's Mark Gurman.

00:47:30   Instead, the report claims that Apple's product design chief,

00:47:32   excuse me, product design team, will report directly

00:47:36   to the company's operations chief, Jeff Williams.

00:47:39   So there is no longer a king or queen of the design group.

00:47:44   They are all mere serfs to Jeff Williams, or something.

00:47:49   - You know, it's always very difficult to try

00:47:51   to analyze Apple executive and higher up staff shake ups like this because we don't really

00:47:59   have a good idea from the outside of the details of what everybody does.

00:48:04   We have kind of this, the public version of this which is incomplete, often times wrong,

00:48:10   but at least very incomplete.

00:48:12   And so we don't really know what's going on here.

00:48:19   The big things that we don't know really are,

00:48:22   first of all, I think I'm upset about this

00:48:26   because since Evan Tanki took over,

00:48:29   I've been very satisfied with the better balance

00:48:33   of functionality versus good design

00:48:35   that Apple's products have had.

00:48:37   - HomePod accepted.

00:48:38   - And that goes right to, I'm sure,

00:48:41   at least part of Evan Tanki's work.

00:48:43   So I am kind of upset to lose her.

00:48:47   But when we look at what they're doing here,

00:48:48   there's two big unknowns to me, which is,

00:48:51   how good was everyone else who was directly under her,

00:48:53   who is now just gonna have one less level

00:48:55   of management between them?

00:48:56   'Cause I think she reported to Jeff Williams before,

00:49:00   I think, so this is just gonna take away

00:49:02   one level of that management.

00:49:04   So big unknown number one is,

00:49:06   what do all those next level people,

00:49:08   like how good are they, and how much of the work

00:49:10   was theirs versus hers, et cetera?

00:49:12   And then the second question, which I think

00:49:14   is one of the biggest unknowns, to the outside world at least

00:49:17   is what the heck is Jeff Williams about?

00:49:20   What is he good at?

00:49:22   What is his personality?

00:49:23   What kind of product sensibility does he have?

00:49:25   I don't think any of us really know from the outside.

00:49:28   He shows himself like a brick wall of drab boringness

00:49:32   to the rest of the world.

00:49:33   So we can't really tell, does he have good product sense?

00:49:38   I mean, first of all, I hope so,

00:49:39   because Tim Cook keeps giving him

00:49:40   more product responsibilities,

00:49:42   and he's clearly, as we've mentioned before,

00:49:44   the Tim Cook hot spare.

00:49:46   So he's clearly the next CEO in line

00:49:51   unless something major changes.

00:49:53   So I wish I knew more about Jeff Williams.

00:49:56   I wish I had a better idea of the kind of things

00:49:58   he's good at, the kind of things he's not good at.

00:50:00   We have some of that visibility with Tim Cook.

00:50:04   But Jeff Williams has been placed in a lot of,

00:50:08   in quite a significant role in leading product development.

00:50:14   And I just, I don't think we know enough

00:50:17   about whether that's a good thing or not.

00:50:19   - Evan's Henke was the replacement for Johnny Ive, right?

00:50:22   - Pretty much, yeah.

00:50:23   Like not quite in title, but I think in role, I think yes.

00:50:26   - But on the hardware only, right?

00:50:28   Because-- - Yes.

00:50:29   Yeah, software is still our wonderful friend, Alan Dye.

00:50:31   - Yeah.

00:50:32   So here's the thing with this change, right?

00:50:35   And I don't know the details of this as well,

00:50:37   but a couple things.

00:50:38   With people high up in a company like this,

00:50:42   It's very easy to fall into the trap of having figureheads for things, right, from the outside.

00:50:50   You have to do it.

00:50:51   It's basically from a PR perspective, you can't—you need a human face that represents

00:50:56   a larger whole.

00:50:57   So very often people like Johnny Ive or the head of any department or a big vice president,

00:51:00   they become the face of whatever it is.

00:51:02   And people will—the backlash against them will be like, "Well, that person doesn't

00:51:07   do everything.

00:51:08   They're just the public face of it.

00:51:09   They're just the figurehead."

00:51:12   And in many respects, of course, that's true.

00:51:14   Once you reach that level, you're no longer actually doing

00:51:17   the work really anymore.

00:51:18   You have people under you who are doing the work.

00:51:19   And sometimes you have people under you

00:51:20   and people under them who are doing the actual work.

00:51:22   That's hierarchy.

00:51:23   But you need someone to be the face of that department.

00:51:26   And in many respects, Johnny Ive was the face of that,

00:51:28   the whole industrial design group,

00:51:31   and eventually all of user interface at Apple,

00:51:33   long after he had stopped individually designing

00:51:36   any particular thing himself, right?

00:51:38   But the flip side of that is,

00:51:40   Even if you never literally design anything,

00:51:43   like if you never come up with an idea,

00:51:45   you never make, you know, you don't design anything,

00:51:48   you as the head of Apple's hardware design

00:51:51   can have, and almost inevitably will have,

00:51:54   a tremendous influence over what happens beneath you

00:51:57   simply because in any company,

00:51:59   you're always trying to sort of please the boss

00:52:01   to get a good promotion, to do well on your job.

00:52:03   It's one of the ways you measure your progress.

00:52:05   And if you know your boss has a particular taste,

00:52:07   like Johnny Ive doesn't like a lot of ports or buttons and like simplicity, you know,

00:52:12   don't come up with a design that your boss isn't going to like.

00:52:17   And even if the boss never does anything, once you show it to them, you present it to

00:52:22   the wider group or you have a review with them or whatever, they're going to have opinions

00:52:26   on it.

00:52:27   They're going to say, even if it's just I like that, I don't like that, thumbs up, thumbs

00:52:29   down, it's going to influence what everybody does underneath them because it's impossible,

00:52:34   especially in a field of opinionated design,

00:52:36   not to know what does Evans Hankey like

00:52:38   and what does Evans Hankey not like.

00:52:39   What does Johnny like and what does Johnny not like?

00:52:42   And without lifting a pen,

00:52:43   without designing a single thing,

00:52:45   without drawing a single curve,

00:52:46   without even coming up with any ideas

00:52:47   of like I think the next iPhone

00:52:49   should look like an Oreo cookie,

00:52:50   without even that level of high level stuff

00:52:51   where you just say that and leave for two months

00:52:53   and come back and expect the iPhone 4 to be there, right?

00:52:56   And not that I'm saying that's what Johnny Ive did

00:52:57   at that point, I think he was much more involved then.

00:52:58   But what I'm saying is even though you don't do any work,

00:53:01   Who's in charge has a tremendous influence.

00:53:04   That's why I think this change,

00:53:06   and I don't know anything about Evan Tanki

00:53:08   and whether I liked what she's done or not or whatever,

00:53:11   but I think changes like this can potentially

00:53:15   be a good kick in the pants

00:53:18   because no longer having a single person

00:53:23   as the head of all of this,

00:53:26   frees up all the people who used to report to Evan Tanki

00:53:30   to come up with designs that Evan Tanki might not have liked,

00:53:35   but there are still good.

00:53:37   The wild card here is what Marker was saying,

00:53:39   okay, but is Jeff Williams the type of person

00:53:41   who's gonna swoop in and be like,

00:53:43   I'm the new Evan Tanki,

00:53:44   and I'm gonna give thumbs up and thumbs down.

00:53:45   Or what I think probably more likely

00:53:48   is Jeff Williams kind of like Tim Cook

00:53:50   and kind of knows this is not my strength.

00:53:52   I'm not an industrial designer,

00:53:54   so I should mostly take a hands-off attitude

00:53:56   and more or less trust the people who report to me

00:53:59   in the design department that they know what they're doing.

00:54:02   So when they come and present to Jeff Williams,

00:54:04   if they ever even do that,

00:54:05   here's the design of the new Apple whatever,

00:54:08   as long as he doesn't visually hate it,

00:54:10   as long as they make a convincing argument,

00:54:12   he doesn't have as many, not preconceived notions,

00:54:15   but he doesn't have like the taste that a designer

00:54:18   like Evans Hanke would have to say,

00:54:20   "I would prefer it be like this."

00:54:21   And I'm not saying the boss always imposes their taste

00:54:23   on all their subordinates

00:54:24   and just makes everything a monoculture,

00:54:26   like that no good boss does that,

00:54:27   But inevitably, that is a factor.

00:54:29   So my feeling is that Jeff Williams is gonna be,

00:54:32   gonna have way less strong design opinions

00:54:34   than Evan Tangy because he's literally not a designer,

00:54:37   no matter what product opinions he has,

00:54:39   hoping that he will realize these are not his strengths

00:54:41   and be more hands-off.

00:54:42   And what that will not allow to happen is

00:54:45   people with good ideas who previously could,

00:54:47   people with good ideas that couldn't get past Johnny

00:54:49   and maybe still couldn't get past Evan's,

00:54:51   if they can just make a convincing case to Jeff Williams

00:54:54   that it's a good idea, then that will give us new products

00:54:57   we previously couldn't get. Now, that's not sustainable long term. It is good to have

00:55:01   someone who's in charge of the whole department and have that person sort of be an actual

00:55:04   designer who, you know, and not Jeff Williams, not the COO, right? This is not, I'm not in

00:55:09   favor of the org chart where your industrial design group has five people who report to

00:55:13   the COO. That's not great. But this little break here, until they, until they can, until

00:55:18   someone rises from the ranks to become the new Evans Hangier, until they hire someone

00:55:21   from the outside or whatever, I think this is an opportunity for us to get designs that

00:55:27   wouldn't otherwise see because I still feel like there are designers inside Apple who

00:55:33   would like to make products that are better in the ways that we can play about in all

00:55:36   these shows.

00:55:37   An example of like, "Hey, if you put ports on your laptops, people will like them."

00:55:39   We had to scream that for like eight years before personnel changes essentially allowed

00:55:43   that to happen, right?

00:55:45   Maybe that's also true of the HomePod or, you know, we were just talking about that

00:55:49   Sony setup with all the different speakers.

00:55:51   HomePod could be that product if the people designing it wanted it to go in that direction

00:55:57   and weren't obsessed with it, "Oh, it just has to have one power cord and it can't be

00:56:00   a piece of AV equipment and it has to be standalone software-powered Siri, whatever, blah, blah,

00:56:06   blah."

00:56:07   Some of that is product design and what product are we making, not how is that product designed,

00:56:12   but that is all kind of combined together to some degree.

00:56:15   So what I'm hoping is that we will see, in what I hope is a not too long break, maybe

00:56:21   a few years here, we will see some new and more interesting designs be able to come out

00:56:25   of the second tier of designers.

00:56:28   Because I know there's got to be good ideas in there that we're definitely not getting

00:56:31   past Johnny and maybe not even getting past Evans.

00:56:34   So I am mostly not upset about this.

00:56:38   Of course the caveat there is, but I don't have any idea what's going on in the company.

00:56:41   Maybe Evans Hanke was the best designer they had and now all they have are a bunch of people

00:56:44   who are not as confident in their abilities, and the next time they're asked to do something

00:56:49   big, they're going to be put in a situation where they're over their heads and they would

00:56:54   benefit from having someone more experienced like Evans Hankey to sort of guide the ship.

00:56:58   That can definitely happen too, but I literally couldn't name a single person other than Johnny

00:57:02   Ivan and Evan Hankey in the industrial design group, so I have no idea what the second level,

00:57:06   third level, or fourth level of that staff looks like. I just hope it's a bunch of good

00:57:10   people.

00:57:11   I think the other thing that gives me pause about this is what are the political implications of it?

00:57:19   You know, because like you were saying a minute ago, if I'm one of 20 or whatever designers

00:57:25   and I want to be the new king, I'm going to do maybe not, you know,

00:57:30   maybe I'm not gonna stab people in the back because I'm not a jerk, but I'm gonna do whatever I can to be

00:57:34   the star to Jeff and look like, oh, I'm the one that's indispensable. I'm the one with all the clever ideas.

00:57:41   And that can create-- that can be used for good or evil, right?

00:57:45   Like, it can be used to really try to get some incredible work

00:57:50   out of this group of 20, let's say.

00:57:52   But it can also be kind of a poison pill,

00:57:55   and it can really sour, you know, these relationships that,

00:57:58   from everything we've read,

00:58:00   at least when Johnny was still around,

00:58:01   allegedly these designers were all super-duper tight with each other.

00:58:05   And I don't know, I worry a little bit that it's gonna get

00:58:08   a little bit figuratively violent as the situation tries to figure out who's going to be the new king or queen.

00:58:15   And, I don't know, like Marco I think had said originally, it's hard for us to know from the outside

00:58:21   what the political sphere and what really day-to-day looks like on the inside, especially with industrial design,

00:58:29   which seems to be one of the most tight-lipped groups within Apple as it is.

00:58:34   So it's tough for me to say, I don't think I love this.

00:58:37   I think maybe I'm too traditional,

00:58:39   and I like having one directly responsible individual,

00:58:44   to use an Apple as a one DRI, in charge of everything.

00:58:48   And I don't love the idea of Jeff Williams

00:58:50   having to split his time.

00:58:51   I mean, just look at, I mean, John,

00:58:53   you're the only one who's been a people manager

00:58:54   amongst the three of us,

00:58:55   but having 10 or 20 direct reports,

00:58:59   when you're anyone, is not easy, from what I understand.

00:59:02   and when you're already as busy

00:59:04   as the chief operating officer

00:59:06   of one of the biggest, most profitable companies

00:59:08   in the world, I can't imagine he has an overabundance

00:59:10   of free time to be doing day-to-day

00:59:12   people management sort of things.

00:59:13   So I don't know, I don't love this,

00:59:16   but I don't think it's necessarily a problem right now.

00:59:20   I just, I think it would give me a lot of worry

00:59:22   if it remained this way in a year or two.

00:59:24   But we'll see what happens.

00:59:25   - Yeah, that's why I have to think

00:59:26   that CEO is just a placeholder,

00:59:28   'cause this happens a lot in org charts.

00:59:29   If someone important leaves and they're having trouble

00:59:31   replacing them, there's a placeholder person who for a while has too many direct reports

00:59:35   and that's why I have to imagine that Jeff Williams is going to be necessarily more hands-off

00:59:39   because he just doesn't have, forget about the expertise, he doesn't have the time to

00:59:42   be dealing with.

00:59:43   I don't know how many new reports he's getting but his fan-out is probably not appropriately

00:59:47   balanced at this point and so they're probably going to rebalance it.

00:59:50   They could rebalance it by putting two or three lieutenants in charge and maybe for

00:59:53   all we know, again we don't know what the org chart, for all we know he only has two

00:59:56   or three lieutenants and it's not even that bad, right?

00:59:58   But if he has an extra 10 people reporting to him, it's too many.

01:00:02   And so they're going to want the fan out to be one or two or three.

01:00:06   In terms of the infighting thing, I have to feel like the Evans Hanke and Johnny Ive job

01:00:11   is exactly the type of job that no designers want.

01:00:14   Like when you reach that level, especially in a company like Apple, it takes a certain

01:00:18   kind of person to actually want that job.

01:00:20   More often it's like, I'd rather just be a designer.

01:00:24   I mean, part of it comes to the glory of like, and now you're the figurehead.

01:00:26   And now when the new Apple car comes out and everybody loves it, you can say, "That was

01:00:30   my thing.

01:00:31   I'm the head of design and let me talk about the design in the video."

01:00:36   There is some glory that comes with that, but boy, it's so difficult to operate at that

01:00:42   level of a company.

01:00:43   So much politics is involved, so much complexity in terms of how do I tell whether I'm doing

01:00:49   a good job or not.

01:00:51   If there are products that succeed or fail in the market, how much of that is attributable

01:00:54   to design?

01:00:56   In many ways, Johnny Ive was protected by his accomplishments.

01:01:00   I'm the iPod iMac, you know, like you may have heard of my work.

01:01:04   I'm kind of well known.

01:01:05   I did a pretty good job.

01:01:06   These products are pretty successful.

01:01:08   And that protected him for a long time, probably too long, from taking his fair share of the

01:01:16   blame for products that didn't succeed as well in the market because he's Johnny freaking

01:01:19   Ive.

01:01:20   Evans Hanke did not have that much protection, but I think made better products towards the

01:01:24   end there than Johnny, which is great, but a new person, like who wants to raise their

01:01:29   hand and say, "I'll be the person who takes all the blame, even though I have very little

01:01:33   to do with the products that come out just because I'm the head of the design and they

01:01:35   come out with this Thinker product."

01:01:38   Even like the HomePod, which I was just saying, that's an example of older thinking.

01:01:42   Maybe Evans-Hange had nothing to do with that and that design was already in the can before

01:01:48   she took over, right?

01:01:50   That happens, you know, products come out later than you expect or whatever, but if

01:01:53   If everyone hated the new HomePod or something, we'd blame her because she's the head, or

01:01:58   she would be the face of that product.

01:02:00   The same way we would be like, "Oh, the Johnny Ive designed," despite the fact, again, that

01:02:03   it's not him designing it.

01:02:04   He was probably coming in for a meeting once a month towards the end there.

01:02:07   But he was the face, and he was the name.

01:02:09   When we complained about something about an Apple product, and it had to do with hardware

01:02:14   design, his name would be in our mouths.

01:02:16   Who wants that?

01:02:17   That's a tough gig.

01:02:21   In my experience in big companies, I've seen more times than I can count, not just myself,

01:02:26   but other people, where there's a position like, "Oh, who wants to go up to the next

01:02:31   level to be whatever, the senior senior or whatever?

01:02:34   Who wants to go to the VP level?"

01:02:37   You would see all the best people, the people who were the best at the jobs that they had,

01:02:41   they did not want to become a vice president of whatever they're doing because they wanted

01:02:44   to continue to do their job.

01:02:47   Sometimes they get frustrated and be like, "Oh, this vice president's a jerk.

01:02:50   I need to be in charge so I can stop people from being a jerk and sometimes they would

01:02:52   get that job and say, I hate being a vice president.

01:02:55   It is so different, so different to be that high in such a big company than it is to do

01:03:01   the actual work.

01:03:02   Even just one level below, still you can kind of define your own job and do the work.

01:03:08   But once you're at the Johnny Ive level, you can't be there like machining stuff and sketching

01:03:13   things.

01:03:14   If you are, your boss is going to tell you you're not using your time appropriately.

01:03:17   That's not what we're paying you for anymore.

01:03:19   It's a different set of skills.

01:03:21   You need to lead this entire organization.

01:03:24   And leading them doesn't just mean looking at what they do and giving thumbs up and thumbs

01:03:27   down.

01:03:28   That's not leadership, right?

01:03:29   You need to lead them and it's like, "How do I do that?

01:03:30   I'm a designer."

01:03:31   That's why people don't want that job.

01:03:33   And why is Evan Tanky leaving?

01:03:35   Maybe because she's got enough money and wants to do different things or whatever.

01:03:37   Who knows?

01:03:38   That's always, at the top level of a company like Apple, that's always the thing I'm thinking

01:03:41   is, "Oh, someone left who was a senior executive of Apple for a while?

01:03:45   They probably don't have to work anymore."

01:03:47   I mean, not that I'm counting other people's money, but if you're a long tenured Apple

01:03:51   employee or even if you're not long tenured, these jobs pay a lot of money.

01:03:55   Setting aside RSUs or whatever people are getting, they make a lot of money when you

01:04:00   work for Apple and you report to somebody who reports to Tim Cook.

01:04:04   That's a good salary, setting aside all the other benefits you get.

01:04:07   So when someone's leaving, good for them.

01:04:09   Who says you have to be ... From all the things we've heard, working inside Apple is a tough

01:04:13   gig.

01:04:14   It's a high-pressure situation.

01:04:15   A lot of eyes are on you.

01:04:17   work hard, they work long hours, if someone wants to take a job that is less stressful

01:04:22   or just not work anymore after putting in many years at Apple, I say good for them.

01:04:26   And I don't read anything into it like they've lost faith in Apple or are leaving or they

01:04:30   got kicked out of the company or whatever, even though that happens occasionally.

01:04:33   But in this case, like I said, I'm looking forward to when the cat's away, the mice will

01:04:39   play for a little while until they can fix their org chart and somehow get things back

01:04:44   into a normal shape.

01:04:45   All right, do you need me for this next part, or should I just take a nap?

01:04:49   I think I do need you for it.

01:04:51   There's a report, "Apple is unlikely to launch a new Mac Studio as it instead focuses on

01:04:56   the Mac Pro."

01:04:58   That means that, hypothetically, the Mac Studio might be one and done, just like the iMac

01:05:02   Pro, which makes me sad because I really dig the idea of the Mac Studio, even though I

01:05:07   don't have one.

01:05:08   But anyway, this is reported on 9to5Mac.

01:05:10   They're quoting Mark Gurman, who wrote, "I wouldn't anticipate the introduction of a

01:05:14   Mac Studio in the near future.

01:05:15   The upcoming Mac Pro is very similar in functionality

01:05:17   to the Mac Studio and adds the M2 Ultra chip

01:05:19   rather than the M1 Ultra.

01:05:21   So it wouldn't make sense for Apple to offer

01:05:23   an M2 Ultra Mac Studio and an M2 Ultra Mac Pro

01:05:26   at the same time.

01:05:27   It's more likely that Apple either never updates

01:05:29   the Mac Studio or holds off until the M3 or M4 generation.

01:05:32   At that point, the company may be able

01:05:33   to better differentiate the Mac Studio from the Mac Pro.

01:05:37   - Yeah, I don't know what to think about this yet

01:05:39   because it's hard to really say

01:05:43   whether the Mac Studio needs to continue to exist

01:05:45   before we know pretty much anything about the Mac Pro.

01:05:49   It is very possible that this product

01:05:51   was basically just a bridge product

01:05:53   to get to the Mac Pro age, which wasn't ready yet,

01:05:57   but this seems like it fits a pretty good slot

01:05:59   in the lineup.

01:06:00   The only thing that I think would make this report

01:06:05   make more sense is if you also take into account

01:06:08   Germin's previous reporting that basically

01:06:10   the really big processor Mac Pro was canceled

01:06:13   delayed more, and so maybe Apple's original plan was that the Mac Pro would be able to

01:06:22   have a higher ceiling or have more capabilities than what they're gonna end up being able

01:06:27   to ship with it.

01:06:28   And so maybe when they originally were designing this lineup and planning it all out, maybe

01:06:33   the Mac Studio made sense as a permanent member of the lineup because the Mac Pro was gonna

01:06:38   be even higher above it, and then as they were developing the Mac Pro, maybe they realized

01:06:42   or decided it's not worth going that high

01:06:44   or we can't easily go that high

01:06:45   or there's some major downsides or whatever.

01:06:47   And so then once the Mac Pro is released

01:06:49   closer to what the Mac Studio does and capabilities,

01:06:52   then I could see the Mac Studio

01:06:53   not being as necessary anymore.

01:06:56   It's also possible Mark Gurman's info is just wrong.

01:06:58   And that's, you know, like whenever we get rumors like this,

01:07:02   you know, there's definitely some confirmation bias

01:07:04   or whatever it is, like when you remember

01:07:06   all the correct things that the psychic says

01:07:08   and you disregard all the incorrect things.

01:07:11   when you look back in retrospect

01:07:13   at what the rumor mill predicts

01:07:15   versus what actually comes out or what actually happens,

01:07:18   oftentimes there's pretty large mismatches there.

01:07:21   So it's really hard to tell,

01:07:22   but I think if the Mac Pro ends up being

01:07:27   fairly accessible at its low end,

01:07:31   and that's a pretty big if, I think,

01:07:33   but again, we don't know any of those product yet.

01:07:35   So if the Mac Pro basically ends up being a Mac Studio

01:07:39   in a larger case with card slots,

01:07:42   well that's not gonna be that different.

01:07:44   It will be substantially larger probably

01:07:46   and it will be somewhat more expensive,

01:07:49   but the Mac Studio's already pretty expensive.

01:07:52   Without seeing the Mac Pro though,

01:07:54   it's really hard to know whether the Mac Studio

01:07:56   will be necessary anymore once the Pro comes out.

01:08:00   - Kind of reminded of the iPad Pros

01:08:03   that recently got updated but not really updated

01:08:06   and all the gnashing of teeth about that

01:08:08   and the various people from inside Apple, you know,

01:08:11   conveying what it's like,

01:08:13   kind of gave a lot of support to the theory

01:08:17   that it just takes a lot of money

01:08:20   to revise hardware products.

01:08:22   And there wasn't enough time, money, and resources,

01:08:25   not just money, but like time, money, resources, people,

01:08:27   like all the things that would go into making

01:08:29   an all new iPad Pro.

01:08:31   It just wasn't in the cards for it to happen this year,

01:08:34   so soon after they were previously revised.

01:08:37   And that gets into what I think is the kernel of truth

01:08:40   in this rumor, guess, speculation, or whatever,

01:08:43   is that the amount of resources Apple is going to put

01:08:47   into a product line are proportional to how many they sell

01:08:49   and how much money they make.

01:08:51   And once you get into desktop Macs,

01:08:53   as this article that we'll link in the show

01:08:54   and it's from Jason Sell reiterates,

01:08:56   you're a fraction of a fraction of a fraction.

01:08:58   The Mac is like less than Apple gets in services.

01:09:01   It's like if the Mac is like less than the iPad

01:09:02   or maybe it's close to it.

01:09:03   Like you're already in a fraction of the pie.

01:09:05   And then like 75% of those are laptops.

01:09:09   So now you're into a fraction of that fraction.

01:09:10   And then of the desktops,

01:09:12   how many people are getting the Mac studio?

01:09:14   It's so few machines, right?

01:09:17   And it doesn't mean they shouldn't make them.

01:09:18   But what it does mean is when it comes time

01:09:20   to allocate resources,

01:09:21   whether that be people, time or money,

01:09:23   does Apple want to allocate the resources

01:09:26   to update the Mac studio every single year

01:09:29   like they do the MacBook Pros

01:09:30   or like we think they should in the MacBook Pros?

01:09:33   No, it doesn't really,

01:09:35   Like if you have to prioritize, you're going to put that money into the new line of MacBook

01:09:38   Pros, right?

01:09:40   Or the new line of 24-inch iMacs for that matter.

01:09:42   The ones that they sell more of, that are more popular products that fill more people's

01:09:47   needs.

01:09:48   So the idea that the Mac Studio would skip the M2 and come out with the M3 makes perfect

01:09:53   sense to me.

01:09:54   Not because that's what I prefer to happen, or not because Apple couldn't put an M2 in

01:09:58   it, but just because when they're allocating the resources to do that, whether it's manufacturing

01:10:02   resources, design resources, or just plain money to make an all new design, because again,

01:10:08   when you make the all new design, it takes a while for that to become cheaper to manufacture,

01:10:12   it takes a while for you to get all the kinks worked out of it or whatever.

01:10:17   It's more difficult to do that for a narrow interest computer like the Mac Studio.

01:10:21   So yeah, if it skips the M2 and goes to the M3, I think that will be reasonable.

01:10:25   Obviously the most extreme case of that is the Mac Pro, which it seems like, and again

01:10:29   And this is the article from Jason Stellan Mac,

01:10:32   no, it's six colors?

01:10:33   Or is it a Mac World article?

01:10:34   - I thought it was Mac World.

01:10:36   - Anyway, his title is,

01:10:37   "Is Apple Making a Mac Pro Nobody Wants?"

01:10:39   And he sort of goes through the recent history

01:10:40   of the Mac Pro, which is,

01:10:41   "There's a big problem with the Mac Pro,

01:10:43   "but don't worry, Apple's gonna fix it.

01:10:45   "Wait a long time, wait a long time, wait a long time.

01:10:47   "Yay, Apple fixed it.

01:10:49   "There's a big problem with the Mac Pro,

01:10:52   "but don't worry, Apple says they're gonna fix it.

01:10:54   "Wait a long time, wait a..."

01:10:55   Like the gap between the updates to the Mac Pro is huge.

01:10:58   And that gap is proportional to how few people

01:11:04   are buying Mac Pros.

01:11:05   Back in the heyday of the Mac Pro or the Power Mac G5,

01:11:09   way more people were buying that computer,

01:11:11   because the laptops couldn't touch it in performance.

01:11:13   All the quote unquote "pros," anyone

01:11:15   who uses Xcode all day, anybody who

01:11:17   does anything remotely strenuous with their computer back

01:11:19   in the day, you had to get a desktop

01:11:22   if you wanted decent performance.

01:11:23   Because the laptops could not come close to the performance

01:11:26   of the desktops.

01:11:27   And so if you looked at that, what does the Mac sales

01:11:30   pie wedge look like back at the time of the Power Mac G5?

01:11:34   It was still mostly laptops probably

01:11:36   or becoming mostly laptops, but it's nothing like it is today.

01:11:39   And there was a perceivable difference.

01:11:40   All the people who wanted desk forms got desktops.

01:11:42   That's not true anymore.

01:11:44   And so the number of people who need the biggest computer

01:11:46   that Apple makes has got to be so small.

01:11:49   And then to top it off, Apple tends

01:11:51   to invest huge amounts of money in the Mac Pro, even

01:11:56   the trash can.

01:11:57   No other computer they made look like that.

01:11:59   It was totally different from manufacturing technique

01:12:01   to construction to shape, like everything about it was like,

01:12:05   this is not a warmed over existing desktop Mac,

01:12:08   it is a totally new thing, right?

01:12:10   And that turned out not to be a great design.

01:12:12   But look at the original cheese grater,

01:12:14   the Power Mac G5 was, was it the first one

01:12:16   that came out with that case, I think?

01:12:18   - Yes.

01:12:19   - You know, it looked like a big heat exchanger, right?

01:12:21   They made that case and they put the money

01:12:23   in to manufacture the case and they used that case for years.

01:12:26   it survived a processor transition.

01:12:28   Why?

01:12:29   Because it cost so much money to design

01:12:31   and manufacture that case, and yeah, they changed it

01:12:33   so that like the fans, all the insides were different

01:12:35   and the fan holes in the back were different

01:12:36   and where the ports were were different.

01:12:37   - Yeah, I was gonna say, like the Mac Pro,

01:12:39   like the Intel version was like radically different inside

01:12:42   than the PowerPC version.

01:12:43   - Yeah, and even within Intel,

01:12:45   if you just look at the back of the machines,

01:12:46   you can identify them like where are the fans?

01:12:48   How big are the fans?

01:12:49   How are they positioned?

01:12:50   The ports in the front, but in general,

01:12:51   they didn't say clean sheet,

01:12:53   we're making a new tower computer.

01:12:54   They're like, we're gonna write,

01:12:55   we put the money into this thing,

01:12:56   we're gonna ride this tower design,

01:12:58   because they gotta, you know,

01:12:59   they had to make their money back.

01:13:00   We're not selling that many of these things,

01:13:01   eventually selling fewer and fewer.

01:13:03   We don't, it's not in,

01:13:05   it's not in, when we're allocating resources,

01:13:07   we can't say, okay, design team,

01:13:09   you get to design an all new Mac Pro,

01:13:11   'cause it's a new year.

01:13:11   It's like, no, you get to take the existing Mac Pro

01:13:14   and give it a facelift.

01:13:15   And even if all the insides have to change,

01:13:17   we're still not giving you the time of resources

01:13:19   to design an entirely new external case.

01:13:21   This happened again when the 2019 Mac Pro came out.

01:13:24   we talked about when we first saw this machine.

01:13:26   We said, look at this case.

01:13:27   This is a complicated, weird, fancy,

01:13:31   it's the fanciest Mac Pro case I think they've ever made.

01:13:34   In terms of how much does this stupid piece of weird,

01:13:37   machined out aluminum cost to make

01:13:38   versus the tube versus the cheese grater,

01:13:40   this has gotta be the most expensive,

01:13:41   most complicated case they've ever made.

01:13:44   This is not a one-off.

01:13:46   - Well, I think if you include

01:13:48   unnecessary internal complexity,

01:13:51   I think you have a hard sell between the liquid cooled G5

01:13:55   and the trash can.

01:13:58   - That liquid cooling was farmed out

01:14:00   and it was not very good.

01:14:01   I'm saying the case, just like the actual

01:14:04   physical shell case thing.

01:14:06   This case, it has to be the most expensive.

01:14:08   It's certainly the most machining steps.

01:14:09   It's the most complicated.

01:14:11   And like, so they made this computer.

01:14:15   They're not going to make a new full-size tower case,

01:14:18   I don't think.

01:14:19   If they do, I will just fall off my chair

01:14:21   because we said when this thing came out,

01:14:24   this is gonna be the case design

01:14:25   for full-size tower computers from Apple

01:14:27   until they stop making them or until many years pass,

01:14:31   because that's just the way they do things,

01:14:32   especially this is such an expensive case.

01:14:34   So this gets into the MacStudio question.

01:14:37   If it is a tower computer,

01:14:42   this is the case they're gonna use,

01:14:43   'cause this is the one they have.

01:14:45   Like they can't justify the resources

01:14:48   to redesign the iPad Pro,

01:14:49   which sells way more copies than the Mac Pro,

01:14:52   there is no way a 2019 full-size tower

01:14:55   is going to be followed by a 2024 full-size tower

01:14:59   that is all new.

01:15:00   That's just not gonna happen.

01:15:01   If it's a full-size tower, this is the case.

01:15:04   Although I think it would be cool

01:15:05   if they made it like space gray or black or whatever.

01:15:06   And yeah, you can move the ports

01:15:08   and yeah, you can tweak it or whatever,

01:15:09   but this is the case, right?

01:15:10   But maybe they don't make a full-size tower.

01:15:12   Maybe it's just a bigger Mac studio, right?

01:15:15   And this gets to what Jason was talking about

01:15:17   and what we've talked about many, many times in the past.

01:15:19   If it's just a Mac Studio with slots,

01:15:22   like as they said in the movie "Contact,"

01:15:24   it seems like an awful waste of space.

01:15:27   Can you take the guts of a Mac Studio,

01:15:29   put it inside this massive case,

01:15:31   and it's like hiding in the corner, basically,

01:15:33   and then you have slots, I guess,

01:15:35   on a giant motherboard that you're gonna put what in,

01:15:37   and that's that question about the GPUs,

01:15:39   we don't wanna rehash all that, right?

01:15:40   It's weird and mysterious.

01:15:43   If the high-end one is canceled with the four things,

01:15:45   because you'd need the cooling for that in here,

01:15:47   and it's really just an M2 Ultra,

01:15:49   but with slots, I don't understand,

01:15:51   like the case is too big.

01:15:53   It's like the M1 Mac Mini was,

01:15:55   where it looks like the insides are too small

01:15:57   for the case you're putting them in.

01:15:59   And so if that's the case,

01:16:02   there's still room for the Mac Studio,

01:16:03   because no one is cross-shopping a Mac Studio

01:16:06   and this stupid thing.

01:16:07   It's just physically space alone.

01:16:09   It's not like, well, I could have this little thing

01:16:11   that sits on my desk that looks like a tall Mac Mini,

01:16:14   or I could have something the size of a truck

01:16:16   I don't even know where the hell I'm gonna put it.

01:16:17   They're not cross, it's just too, it's huge.

01:16:20   It's gigantic and what you'd have to be saying,

01:16:23   okay, it's gigantic but in exchange for that gigantic thing,

01:16:25   I get what?

01:16:26   And if it's just like a MacStudio inside there,

01:16:29   I don't, you know, that's a product that nobody wants,

01:16:31   that's what Jason's talking about,

01:16:32   I don't understand it, right?

01:16:33   So if the Mac Pro is in this case,

01:16:37   they have to keep making,

01:16:38   they either have to keep making that MacStudio

01:16:40   or they have to bring back the iMacPro

01:16:41   because there is that hole in the lineup

01:16:43   and the MacStudio now fills it.

01:16:44   The Mac Studio and the Apple Studio display

01:16:46   is the deconstructed iMac, the high-end big screen iMac.

01:16:51   If they don't wanna make that,

01:16:52   they can bring back a big screen iMac,

01:16:54   but they can't go Mac Mini, nothing in the lineup,

01:16:58   thing the size of a truck.

01:17:00   That's too much of a gap, right?

01:17:02   That doesn't mean the Mac Studio's

01:17:03   gonna get updated constantly.

01:17:05   If the Mac Studio skips a couple generations,

01:17:07   that is more appropriate,

01:17:09   because the Mac Pro skips like seven generations.

01:17:11   It's like the whole rest of the Mac line

01:17:12   comes and goes like in one of those time lapses

01:17:14   where you see seasons pass and the Mac Pro's just sitting there unchanged.

01:17:19   And so the Mac Studio will be like that but with fewer seasons passing in the montage.

01:17:23   And I think that is, even though I'm disappointed by it, I think it is not surprising and probably

01:17:29   an appropriate use of Apple's resources.

01:17:32   And this is the kind of thing with Apple.

01:17:33   They're so secretive, they never tell us what's happening, blah, blah, blah.

01:17:35   It was nice that they told us they're fixing the Mac Pro so it would let people hold on

01:17:38   and not spend all those years screaming.

01:17:41   We just spent those years waiting, right?

01:17:42   at least we knew it was happening.

01:17:44   If they had a cadence and told us the cadence,

01:17:46   like, you know, they could spin it however they want,

01:17:49   the Mac Studio, since it's a high-end machine

01:17:52   and blah, blah, blah, will be updated every two years.

01:17:54   Just tell us that ahead of time

01:17:56   so we're not wondering if they're canceling the Mac Studio,

01:17:58   are they gonna make an M3 one, blah, blah, blah.

01:18:00   Just let us know.

01:18:01   Like, if you just tell us the cadence,

01:18:03   you should expect a new Mac Pro every five years.

01:18:05   Just let us know, don't let them make a Mac Pro

01:18:07   and then have a saying,

01:18:08   are they ever gonna make another one?

01:18:09   We don't know, like, 'cause they never wanna tell us.

01:18:11   And they, especially with the high-end desktop Macs,

01:18:14   they haven't had long enough to establish

01:18:16   any kind of pattern because they're too erratic.

01:18:18   It's always, it's perpetually in crisis.

01:18:21   So it's not like they can say,

01:18:22   "Well, we won't tell you the pattern

01:18:23   "'cause we can't promise that far in advance,

01:18:24   "but you can surmise it by looking."

01:18:26   No, we can't, it's chaos.

01:18:27   Like we have no idea what's going on over there.

01:18:29   The Mac Studio came out of nowhere.

01:18:31   Why is there no big iMac?

01:18:32   Where the hell is the Mac Pro?

01:18:33   We don't know, so you have to tell us,

01:18:35   especially for high-end people wanna know,

01:18:37   should we buy, you know, we love the Mac Studio.

01:18:39   It's perfect for our environment,

01:18:41   The Mac Mini is a little bit too slow, we like the extra RAM we can put in the Mac Studio.

01:18:45   We want to buy them, and when the new one comes out we want to refresh our whole studio

01:18:48   with them.

01:18:49   Apple, tell us when you're going to come out with them.

01:18:50   Okay, we're going to come out with them every other year, so it's going to be M1, M3, M5,

01:18:54   you know, like, just tell us!

01:18:56   And that would be fine, but Apple does not and probably cannot make those kind of promises

01:19:01   that far in advance, so we're kind of left wondering, and that's why you get stories

01:19:04   like this one where Germin's like, "You know what?

01:19:06   I think the Mac Studio, just like, they're not going to update it anymore, it's going

01:19:09   to be a really long time.

01:19:11   It makes people afraid for like, "Oh, it's my favorite computer.

01:19:14   I love it in Mac Studio.

01:19:15   I hope they make another one."

01:19:16   It's like the mini iPhone.

01:19:18   They don't tell us and people have various spheres and sometimes those spheres are founded,

01:19:21   but in this case, something from Apple would help.

01:19:26   Either put out the M3 one and then there'll be some relief or tell us that, I mean, I

01:19:32   don't know how they say this, vocalize the idea that high-end computers that don't sell

01:19:36   a lot get updated at less frequency.

01:19:38   We all kind of know that in the abstract, but without any communication it makes everybody

01:19:43   who buys those computers fear that as soon as they buy one, the thing they just bought

01:19:48   is now an evolutionary dead end and there's not going to be any more of them.

01:19:51   That's never a good feeling.

01:19:53   You're just ready to buy a new computer, aren't you?

01:19:55   I don't know.

01:19:56   I mean, if they put an M2 Ultra in a case the size of my thing, I'm going to be like

01:20:01   pfft.

01:20:02   Especially if there's no third-party GPU support, why would I buy that?

01:20:05   I would start looking at studios and minis,

01:20:08   and then I would look back at my computer

01:20:09   and I'd say, I'll just keep you for 10 years.

01:20:10   We'll see how it happens.

01:20:12   Once they stop supporting,

01:20:13   once the latest Mac OS doesn't run on Intel,

01:20:16   it's really gonna put the pressure on me.

01:20:17   - Yeah, that's gonna be the end of it,

01:20:18   'cause you won't be able to just hack a driver here or there

01:20:22   and make it work, that's gonna be a pretty hard stop,

01:20:24   I think, so.

01:20:25   - I mean, so what'll actually happen is,

01:20:27   so that'll be a problem for me

01:20:29   because I do have my dinky little apps

01:20:30   and I do need to be able to build them

01:20:32   and run the latest OS, and I'll probably wanna do that,

01:20:35   and then I'll start using other people's computers

01:20:37   in the family, which will all be ARM,

01:20:38   they already all are ARM, I'll be using my wife's

01:20:40   MacStudio, I'll use one of my kids' ARM laptops,

01:20:42   and they'll be like, "Hey, get off my computer,

01:20:43   "you've been using Xcode on my computer,"

01:20:45   and that's what's gonna force me to do it.

01:20:46   Not the fact that I can't run the latest OS

01:20:49   on my Intel one, but the fact that I'm hogging

01:20:51   other people's ARM-based computers and they don't like it.

01:20:54   - And if only there were some other ARM-based Mac

01:20:56   you could get that was not just the absolute

01:20:59   top of the line one. (laughs)

01:21:02   - Yeah, imagine that.

01:21:03   - You know, if they fixed the fans in the MacStudio,

01:21:05   be a lot more attractive to me, I have to say.

01:21:07   - Yeah, I mean, and it's funny,

01:21:08   like you know, the fan thing is odd,

01:21:10   and I wonder if, you know, if you think back to like,

01:21:13   you know, what I was saying earlier,

01:21:14   like why the Max Studio existed,

01:21:16   was it always intended to be like a temporary,

01:21:19   like you know, holding spot in the lineup,

01:21:21   waiting for the big Mac Pro,

01:21:22   or was it intended to always be there,

01:21:24   and to have the Mac Pro go, you know,

01:21:25   substantially above it?

01:21:27   I wonder if it was maybe designed in a rush,

01:21:31   like maybe the Mac Pro was not,

01:21:33   was not hitting their schedule that they originally planned,

01:21:36   and so they kind of made this as a rush job,

01:21:38   and maybe that's one of the reasons why it has

01:21:40   such weird engineering in certain ways, like the fans.

01:21:43   - So thinking back to what we talked about before,

01:21:46   about the Apple TV 4K and watching the old versus the new,

01:21:48   if you've seen the inside of the Mac Studio,

01:21:51   that does not look like a rush job.

01:21:53   Like that is so, it is much more towards

01:21:55   the over-engineered, custom, beautiful on the inside design.

01:21:58   That is not a rush, right?

01:22:00   Combined with the fact that the quote-unquote

01:22:03   half-size Mac Pro rumors have been around forever.

01:22:06   Now, was that referring to the Mac Studio?

01:22:08   We don't know, 'cause these rumors are so old.

01:22:10   But remember, even while we were,

01:22:13   I guess as soon as the 2019 one came out

01:22:15   and the ARM transition happened, the rumor was,

01:22:18   "Hey, the next Mac Pro, they're gonna have two Mac Pros.

01:22:20   "One's gonna be a half-size one

01:22:21   "and one's gonna be full-size."

01:22:23   And it has never been clear to me

01:22:25   whether the Mac Studio is the half-size one

01:22:27   or the half-size rumor is totally false

01:22:29   or they really had a half-size one.

01:22:30   But when I look at the Mac Studio,

01:22:33   If it was the half-size one, that rumor is super old,

01:22:36   and that means the product wasn't rushed.

01:22:37   And then I look at the inside of it,

01:22:38   and I'm like, this does not look like a rush job.

01:22:40   This looks like a computer that somebody

01:22:42   sweated over every detail.

01:22:44   Like, it's too good looking on the inside,

01:22:46   and it's too perfect.

01:22:48   And the fact that the cooler has low-diameter fans

01:22:51   that spin too fast and make a weird droning noise

01:22:54   just seems like a design miss.

01:22:56   Like, I think they made the computer they wanted to make,

01:22:59   and they just didn't think about the idea

01:23:00   that all their other computers are so damn silent

01:23:03   that now this is the noisy one.

01:23:04   Again, it's dead silent when it's bolted under my desk,

01:23:06   but it's noisy enough and annoying enough.

01:23:09   Like it's not just the volume,

01:23:11   if you put like a decibel meter by it,

01:23:12   it's the nature of the sound, the frequency of the sound.

01:23:15   It is annoying enough

01:23:17   that people don't want it on their desk.

01:23:18   And so it got banished.

01:23:19   And banished under the desk, it's totally silent and fine,

01:23:22   which is why I would consider getting one.

01:23:24   But I think it's a miss when all your other computers

01:23:26   either have no fan or are dead silent,

01:23:28   including the Mac Mini,

01:23:30   which you think would be

01:23:30   a more thermally challenging situation,

01:23:32   especially when it's got the same processor,

01:23:34   like in the M1 Max Mac Mini, which we now have,

01:23:38   compared to the M1 Max Max Studio.

01:23:40   From all the reviews I've seen,

01:23:42   'cause I haven't seen an M1 Max Max Mini,

01:23:45   but from all the reviews, the M1 Max Mac Mini is quiet.

01:23:48   It's practically silent.

01:23:49   And the Max Studio, they've got that same drone

01:23:52   that they all have, which is just,

01:23:55   I think it's just a design miss.

01:23:56   So I feel like, you know, that's not,

01:23:59   I mean, maybe the cooler was rushed,

01:24:01   but like everything else about it,

01:24:02   the motherboard, the case, everything about it looks just

01:24:05   not as over engineered as Apple TV,

01:24:06   but pretty close if you've looked at a teardown.

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01:26:07   (upbeat music)

01:26:10   - Let's do some Ask ATP.

01:26:11   Scott Wright writes, "Hey Marco, to people like me

01:26:15   who remain subscribed to podcasts

01:26:16   no longer release new episodes like Just The Tip

01:26:18   and Hello Internet, does that create much overhead

01:26:20   for your feed crawlers?

01:26:21   My guess is no, but I'm always surprised

01:26:23   when I get glimpses of your data models, so I wonder."

01:26:26   - So the way Overcast currently syncs things,

01:26:28   and this has actually changed over time,

01:26:30   it used to be, and I think, I forget whether

01:26:33   the watch still is this way, it might be,

01:26:35   it used to be that the Overcast app

01:26:38   would only sync information to, like from the servers

01:26:43   about episodes that were not yet deleted.

01:26:45   So if you had a podcast that you'd like listened

01:26:47   all the way through to, and you went to its screen,

01:26:50   and there were no episodes in the unplayed

01:26:52   or now current tab, if you tapped over to the all tab,

01:26:55   it would have to do a network fetch to populate

01:26:57   the all list, 'cause that was not stored on your device.

01:27:00   A while ago, I changed that so that now,

01:27:03   any podcast that you have in your subscriptions at all,

01:27:07   the app always downloads all information,

01:27:10   about all episodes about it.

01:27:12   So, and that enables things like search on the app.

01:27:16   That's, I believe, the reason I made that change.

01:27:18   So it no longer only gets the current ones,

01:27:20   it now gets all.

01:27:21   So, on some level,

01:27:23   The app, you're syncing data about all of those

01:27:28   old dead feeds to my servers all the time.

01:27:31   But that being said, the protocol is a little bit

01:27:35   efficient, and I'm actually working on making it

01:27:36   more efficient, I talked about it a little bit

01:27:38   under the radar this week, but the current protocol,

01:27:42   it won't sync data, it won't even check before

01:27:46   first checking basically a change version number.

01:27:50   And if the feed is not really changing on a regular basis,

01:27:53   it's not gonna be downloading much of anything

01:27:55   or load much of anything.

01:27:56   So it's not much of a load.

01:27:58   But the number of feeds that you have in Overcast

01:28:02   is the important factor there

01:28:04   and how often they change their data

01:28:06   like on their end in their feed.

01:28:08   Like the heaviest feeds for Overcast to deal with

01:28:11   are Patreon feeds.

01:28:13   Because Patreon feeds, there's a lot of them

01:28:15   because if you subscribe to a Patreon member podcast,

01:28:20   every user gets a individual feed,

01:28:22   just like the ATP member feeds.

01:28:24   Every user gets individual feeds

01:28:25   and everything is like hashed to that user.

01:28:29   The problem with Patreon feeds is that they also

01:28:33   have these giant long hashes that are like built

01:28:35   into different content areas of the feed

01:28:38   that change over time.

01:28:39   They're like expiring signatures for S3 or whatever else.

01:28:41   And so Patreon feeds are huge and they change constantly.

01:28:46   They also tend, I believe they tend to have the full text

01:28:50   of all their posts in their feeds as well.

01:28:52   So if you have a podcast like John Roderick's Patreon,

01:28:56   where there's these giant walls of text as essays

01:28:59   that were also posted as the show notes,

01:29:01   that's being downloaded every single time

01:29:02   anything in that feed changes,

01:29:04   and Patreon changes their feeds constantly

01:29:06   because they have these expiring URLs.

01:29:07   So there are feeds like that

01:29:09   that are pretty heavy loads on my server

01:29:11   just because they, on their end,

01:29:13   are changing those constantly,

01:29:14   and there's a huge volume of them.

01:29:18   I have to have special handling on my crawlers

01:29:19   to kind of back off a little bit on Patreon feeds

01:29:22   and to not save every revision they make.

01:29:25   Like if I sense that they've only changed

01:29:27   the signatures on the URLs,

01:29:30   I actually will delay and not save every one of those.

01:29:33   I'll only save it like once a day or something like that.

01:29:34   I forgot about what it's currently set to.

01:29:36   Because I can't, I have no idea how long those URLs last.

01:29:39   I haven't tested like how long they take before they expire,

01:29:42   but it's at least a day.

01:29:43   So anyway, and if anybody out there works at Patreon

01:29:47   and works on their feeds, please get in touch.

01:29:49   I would love to talk about this.

01:29:51   and maybe save us both a ton of bandwidth at some point

01:29:55   because this is hurting them even more than it's hurting me

01:29:58   'cause they have to serve these to everybody.

01:30:00   So anyway, but yeah, so for the most part,

01:30:04   having a feed-in overcast that is subscribed at all,

01:30:06   like that is in your list,

01:30:08   whether you have the little follow every episode or not,

01:30:11   if it's in your app, if it's listed in your list,

01:30:15   having that has a small amount of overhead to overcast,

01:30:17   but it doesn't matter what the status

01:30:19   of your episodes within it is,

01:30:20   It doesn't matter how many you have unplayed

01:30:22   or how many you have marked, displayed,

01:30:24   or deleted or whatever.

01:30:25   None of that matters.

01:30:26   It just matters how many episodes are in the feed

01:30:27   because that's being stored as database rows on both sides.

01:30:31   And then it matters how much that feed changes.

01:30:32   And for these old shows that are not

01:30:35   having these time bombed URLs,

01:30:37   those feeds pretty much never change, so it's fine.

01:30:40   - Scott's question was specifically about

01:30:42   how much overhead does it create for your feed crawlers.

01:30:44   And the whole reason you have feed crawlers

01:30:46   is so you don't have to have,

01:30:48   It's not like every individual user is doing the same job.

01:30:52   Your feed crawler is to run on your server.

01:30:53   You can crawl that feed once, and everybody

01:30:56   who subscribes that for non-changing normal feeds,

01:30:59   like regular podcasts-- it doesn't matter if 1,000 people

01:31:03   subscribe to it or one person subscribes to it.

01:31:05   Your feed crawler crawls it, and it doesn't have to crawl it

01:31:07   n times for n number of people.

01:31:09   So hello, internet, for example.

01:31:11   Regular feed, nothing weird going on with it,

01:31:14   hasn't released new episodes in a long time.

01:31:16   It doesn't really matter how many people have this.

01:31:18   If Scott keeps Hello Internet in his subscription list

01:31:20   or doesn't keep it, your feed crawler is crawling

01:31:23   the Hello Internet feed more or less the same amount of time.

01:31:25   I'm sure you have adjustments for like

01:31:26   when it becomes more popular or whatever

01:31:28   and back off on it, but it's like,

01:31:30   what I'm saying to Scott is, don't worry,

01:31:32   you're not hurting Marco's feed crawler

01:31:34   by keeping Hello Internet in your thing, it's fine.

01:31:36   His feed crawler is crawling it

01:31:38   the amount of time is appropriate for a feed

01:31:40   that has not updated in years

01:31:42   and you staying subscribed to it isn't changing that.

01:31:44   - Yeah, yeah, and it's funny,

01:31:47   it's kinda like computer science,

01:31:48   there's only three numbers, like zero, one, and N.

01:31:50   Or some people are even just zero and N,

01:31:53   depending on what versions you've heard.

01:31:55   But that's kinda how my feed throttling works.

01:31:57   If I have a feed that has no subscribers

01:32:00   and is not listed in Apple Podcasts,

01:32:03   Overcast will automatically delete it after a while.

01:32:05   If it has no subscribers but is listed in Apple Podcasts,

01:32:07   I don't think it'll ever automatically get deleted,

01:32:09   but I will crawl a zero subscriber feed

01:32:13   much less often than a feed that has any subscribers at all.

01:32:17   And then there's also a big difference

01:32:19   between one subscriber and anything more than one.

01:32:22   Because again, that's all those Patreon feeds,

01:32:25   or any kind of membership, the ATP membership feeds,

01:32:27   almost all of those are gonna have at most one person

01:32:29   in Overcast who has those feeds in their account.

01:32:32   So I'm gonna crawl those at a different interval as well.

01:32:35   And there's certain ones where I've worked with the host

01:32:38   to say certain hosts of membership stuff,

01:32:42   like I think Memberful, I think I might special case them.

01:32:45   I special case the Chitakari Empire of Chitakari,

01:32:50   Chitakari Plus, and Ditherings.

01:32:52   I work with Ben Thompson on like, you know,

01:32:54   what kind of rate do you want me to crawl you,

01:32:56   and is this too much or is this too little?

01:32:58   So I have a few special cases in there,

01:32:59   but for the most part I just crawl based on frequency,

01:33:02   based on popularity.

01:33:03   And so, you know, if you have no subscribers,

01:33:07   or one subscriber, or a lot of subscribers, that matters.

01:33:10   But no other distinction really does.

01:33:12   Do you have particular special cases for ATP membership?

01:33:15   'Cause I know we're gonna get asked.

01:33:17   - I gotta check.

01:33:20   I actually think I don't.

01:33:21   So the other thing is, I have a thing in place,

01:33:24   I have a ping API where hosts, if they want to,

01:33:28   in their CMS, can send a ping request to Overcast

01:33:32   that says crawl these feeds with this prefix

01:33:35   as soon as you can, like now or whatever.

01:33:37   And a few hosts have done this.

01:33:38   And I've actually run into issues,

01:33:39   because Overcast is too fast,

01:33:41   that a lot of times they will put this in some part

01:33:43   in like the after save method of their CMS

01:33:46   or whatever the equivalent there is.

01:33:48   But a lot of times their own CDN hasn't updated

01:33:51   the feed contents yet at that point.

01:33:53   And so Overcast will say, all right, I'll crawl it right now

01:33:56   and it goes and crawls it right now and gets old data.

01:33:58   But because I have the ping API on ATP

01:34:02   and I implement caching correctly,

01:34:03   it's funny, I actually, I think I artificially delay

01:34:06   the ping crawls now by a few seconds

01:34:08   just to try to avoid that problem.

01:34:10   Anyway, because I developed the CMS,

01:34:12   I implemented ping support.

01:34:14   So I don't even think, I don't think I have

01:34:16   special case handling for our crawl intervals

01:34:18   because whenever we publish a new episode,

01:34:21   the CMS just sends a request to Overcast,

01:34:23   hey, ping these feeds, and over the following few minutes,

01:34:27   Overcast pings them all and reverses them all.

01:34:29   So if you have, if you're telling me

01:34:32   when your feed is being updated,

01:34:34   I don't have to be polling it as frequently.

01:34:36   So I don't think I have any special case handling for us.

01:34:39   John Susick writes, "Would a MacBook with eight 64-gig

01:34:42   "NAN chips read data about eight times faster

01:34:45   "than a single 512-gig chip?

01:34:48   "Would that drive be about eight times less reliable?

01:34:51   "Is this conceptually something like RAID 0

01:34:53   "at the chipset level?"

01:34:54   John, I feel like you should probably handle this.

01:34:56   - Yeah, I think it's a good question for people

01:34:58   who haven't looked into hardware stuff that often,

01:35:02   because of the story we talked about a few times now

01:35:05   with Apple putting one SSD chip

01:35:08   that has all the storage versus two chips of half the size

01:35:13   and the two chips at half the size get you twice the speed.

01:35:16   And so it's an obvious question if you haven't, you know,

01:35:19   looked into this is like, well, does that just work?

01:35:22   Does that scale linearly?

01:35:23   Can I just keep chopping up my SSD

01:35:25   into smaller and smaller pieces and get twice the speed,

01:35:28   four times the speed?

01:35:29   Does, you know, obviously, you know,

01:35:31   if you think about it for a second, it's like, well,

01:35:32   if that worked, someone would be doing it, right?

01:35:34   And in some respects, that is true.

01:35:35   If you parallelize access,

01:35:37   You can get more bandwidth and everything, but the dollar sign comes in here.

01:35:42   You can make bus widths wider and wider.

01:35:45   As you do that, especially with high speed-ish things like memory, it gets real expensive

01:35:56   real fast.

01:35:57   Especially when you're talking about something that interfaces into the CPU or into an SOC

01:36:02   or into some large part of the system

01:36:05   that lots of things have access to,

01:36:07   wider and wider buses are more expensive.

01:36:09   It's part of the reason that the VRAM

01:36:11   that they put on high-end GPUs,

01:36:13   it's like, why does it cost so much money

01:36:16   to have 16 gigs of VRAM?

01:36:18   16 gigs of RAM costs nothing.

01:36:20   Well, the VRAM on a high-end GPU

01:36:23   has a hugely wide interface to the GPU itself on the thing.

01:36:28   First of all, it's physically close to it,

01:36:30   which means the signals don't have to travel far.

01:36:31   And I forget the bus widths, but I think they're like over 512?

01:36:36   They're really, really wide.

01:36:38   Back in the day, in my youth with memory interfaces,

01:36:42   everything was like sipping through a straw.

01:36:44   It was just these tiny narrow interfaces.

01:36:46   And when they got a little bit wider,

01:36:47   we'd get really excited.

01:36:48   But money has always been a limiting factor.

01:36:50   So for a laptop, for example, if you made the bus eight times

01:36:56   wider, well, at that point, you'd be like, OK,

01:36:58   but the SOC can't even handle that.

01:37:00   The SOC itself does not have enough, the bus width going to the SOC for this data is not

01:37:06   wide enough.

01:37:07   So it doesn't matter how big you make it, there's no more bridge chips anymore, but

01:37:10   it doesn't matter how wide you make it, eventually it's got to funnel into what the SOC can handle.

01:37:14   And I feel like probably on the ones where they have two or four chips, they're probably

01:37:18   maxing out the width of the IO system that reads SSDs on those SSDs.

01:37:27   And adding more of them, you would get nothing for it because you're already using up all

01:37:30   the lines.

01:37:31   Back in the PCI Express days and the various bridges we talk about, PCI Express lanes and

01:37:36   everything or the Thunderbolt we talk about the bus with, but it's the same thing with

01:37:41   names that I just don't know for the SOC and the SSD interface.

01:37:46   So the answer is you can make it wider, but it'll cost way more money.

01:37:50   It'll take more power, it'll produce more heat.

01:37:52   And so I think, and someone from Apple or someone who knows better can correct me if

01:37:56   I think the the fastest SSDs and Apple's laptops are using all the available bandwidth to those SOCs and

01:38:04   You're not going to get any more speed by breaking by doubling the number of chips or whatever and the the ones that are half

01:38:12   quote-unquote half speed are using half the width because they

01:38:15   Have one chip and the other one would use the rest of them in terms of reliability

01:38:19   Yeah, I mean

01:38:22   making two chips

01:38:24   two chips don't fail twice as often as one chip usually because

01:38:28   You know the it really depends on how you're pushing the envelope

01:38:32   It's kind of like should I get the one biggest hard drive I can get or two smaller ones

01:38:36   What does that do for reliability if they just came out with like, you know, I don't know what size hard drives are

01:38:41   So they just come out with a new 28

01:38:43   Terabyte hard drive and it's the only one in the market and it's cutting-edge maybe you know, don't go with that one go with two

01:38:50   14 terabyte ones, right

01:38:53   But if it's a common size that's been around for a long time,

01:38:57   having two 256s and a single 512,

01:39:01   I imagine the reliability of all those things is pretty good.

01:39:04   Your main factor is going to be wear leveling

01:39:06   and wearing out the NAND and all that other stuff

01:39:08   that is more of a factor

01:39:10   than somehow the chip going bad or whatever.

01:39:12   So, you know, it's a good question,

01:39:14   but I think the answer is no, Apple is not --

01:39:17   computer manufacturers in general are not being silly

01:39:20   by not having tons of little SSD chips.

01:39:21   They're more or less doing everything they can to get the most performance at a reasonable

01:39:26   cost and power budget for their given computer.

01:39:29   Bartoszko writes, "How do you handle unknown callers?

01:39:32   I'm in a situation now where I get a lot of calls and I just do not have the time to take

01:39:35   unknown calls.

01:39:37   In Sweden we have websites that are quite good at resolving who the caller was, but

01:39:40   it takes a few taps and holds a copy of the phone number from recent lists, and sometimes

01:39:44   I fail and the phone calls the number instead.

01:39:46   What do you guys do?"

01:39:47   I don't have this happen very often, so for me,

01:39:50   I typically just ignore them and let them roll the voicemail.

01:39:53   And I'd say about eight times out of 10,

01:39:55   I end up deleting the voicemail that they leave

01:39:57   about my car's warranty running out.

01:40:00   But that's just me.

01:40:01   Marco, I feel like you've done a lot of,

01:40:03   or in the past, you had done a lot of research

01:40:05   on anti-spam apps and things like that.

01:40:07   - Yeah, call blockers and stuff.

01:40:08   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:40:09   So what is the current state of the world for you?

01:40:12   - So it's different because everybody has different needs

01:40:16   about what is your risk tolerance for inadvertently

01:40:21   missing a valuable call or a call

01:40:24   that you actually might want.

01:40:26   So everyone has to set this differently.

01:40:27   Some people, if they give their phone number out

01:40:30   as part of their job and they might have strangers

01:40:33   calling them all the time and that's like new customers

01:40:35   for them, they have to be pretty careful what they block.

01:40:39   If you wanna go fully nuclear, the nuclear option,

01:40:41   which I have done, I don't currently do it,

01:40:43   but I did it for a while, is a few years ago,

01:40:46   Apple added an option called Silence Unknown Callers.

01:40:50   And this is just a setting somewhere,

01:40:51   I think it's in the phone app,

01:40:52   or in the phone app settings in the settings app.

01:40:54   It's somewhere in the settings app,

01:40:56   and Silence Unknown Callers does exactly what it says.

01:40:58   Any caller that's not in your contacts,

01:41:00   it just gets sent to voicemail.

01:41:02   And that is the nuclear option, and it does work.

01:41:05   It works really, really well

01:41:07   if you don't wanna be bothered by unknown calls.

01:41:09   The downside is you will miss things

01:41:11   that you would've wanted,

01:41:13   because if somebody's not in your contacts,

01:41:15   And it tries to be a little bit smarter.

01:41:17   Like, you know, if there's like a phone number

01:41:18   in one of your recent email messages,

01:41:20   or a phone number that you've recently dialed,

01:41:22   it won't silence those trying to call you.

01:41:25   So it's a little smarter than just your contacts,

01:41:27   but it's, you know, you will miss a lot

01:41:29   if you use that option.

01:41:31   But again, I used it for like a year, and it was fine.

01:41:34   I have a bit of a different situation

01:41:37   in that I got my cell phone

01:41:39   when I lived somewhere else than I currently live.

01:41:44   And I pretty much know, and the good thing is,

01:41:47   most US spam callers, not all, but most of them

01:41:52   try to call from your local exchange.

01:41:54   So it'll have the same first, usually six,

01:41:58   digits of your phone number, or at least it'll be

01:42:00   from the same area of your phone number.

01:42:02   Because they are trying to trick you

01:42:03   into thinking it's a local call.

01:42:05   Well, if you don't live there, (laughs)

01:42:07   you know that it's probably spam.

01:42:09   So I'll have random calls from White Plains.

01:42:12   I know that I have no reason for any strangers

01:42:15   in White Plains to be calling me.

01:42:17   And so what I do is I send, if I see a call

01:42:21   that's from one of these areas that I know

01:42:23   is gonna be like trick spam, trying to trick me

01:42:25   into thinking it's a local call,

01:42:27   I will send those to voicemail, I'll decline the call,

01:42:30   and then sure enough in the voicemail,

01:42:31   I'll have a message that says the exact same thing.

01:42:33   It'll be three seconds long, and it'll say hello,

01:42:35   dot dot dot in the transcript.

01:42:37   And it's the exact, and I'll have,

01:42:40   I'll get maybe five of those in a day.

01:42:42   But then, and here's the trick,

01:42:44   I will block every single one of those numbers.

01:42:46   'Cause it's just two taps, you know,

01:42:48   you hit the info on the missed call record on voicemail,

01:42:50   you hit block contact, I'll block every one of those numbers.

01:42:53   And I did that for a few weeks,

01:42:54   where every time I would get these dud things

01:42:57   that were sent to voicemail, or something I would pick up,

01:42:59   and it was being spam, I would block the contact.

01:43:02   And so I ended up having something like, you know,

01:43:04   30, 40 block numbers, but that actually has dramatically

01:43:08   reduced the amount of spam calls I've gotten.

01:43:10   Because it turns out, most of these calls

01:43:12   are coming from the same banks of numbers,

01:43:15   like the same relatively countable,

01:43:18   knowable sets of spammable numbers.

01:43:20   So that actually had a huge reduction.

01:43:24   But that is, again, that's kind of a trick that I know.

01:43:26   And I even found a call blocker app,

01:43:28   like there's an area in Westchester

01:43:30   where I've never done any kind of business with anybody,

01:43:33   and I was getting tons of spam calls from their numbers.

01:43:35   And so I just blocked the entire town.

01:43:38   Like I downloaded, I forget what it is,

01:43:40   there's like some kind of like simple call blocker app

01:43:42   where you can just block ranges of numbers.

01:43:44   So I could block like the first six digits

01:43:46   and then anything in the last four.

01:43:48   So like those 10,000 numbers, I just blocked them all.

01:43:51   And that also had a nice big effect.

01:43:53   So that's, but then you know,

01:43:56   that's one of the luxuries you get

01:43:57   if you know that if that like local calling trick

01:44:01   doesn't work on you because you don't live

01:44:03   in the same area code as that number anymore.

01:44:06   So, for me, it's like, if somebody calls from Long Island,

01:44:08   I'm gonna pick it up.

01:44:10   But I've never had a Long Island phone number.

01:44:12   So I don't get spam from Long Island.

01:44:14   So it's actually kind of nice.

01:44:16   - And yeah, there's another fun thing that I assume

01:44:18   is uniquely bad in the US, 'cause USA, USA.

01:44:22   Don't you think there should be laws stopping people

01:44:24   from making automated spam calls,

01:44:26   pretending to be from places they're not?

01:44:29   No, because the spammers who do this lobby

01:44:32   are lawmakers and put money into their campaigns.

01:44:35   I think there are laws.

01:44:37   They just aren't following them or enforcing them.

01:44:40   Toothless laws that have ways to get around them,

01:44:43   because those people spend a lot of money.

01:44:45   It's terrible.

01:44:46   Anyway, our system is stupid.

01:44:48   That's why we have the stupidity.

01:44:49   But given that we have the stupidity,

01:44:51   the way I deal with it-- so I do like the call blocking apps.

01:44:56   I've tried a bunch of them.

01:44:57   I never had the guts to try the one that I think Marco tried,

01:45:00   but it's just like, hey, actually,

01:45:01   we'll intercept your calls and your calls won't come to you.

01:45:04   Your calls will go to us and then we'll forward them to you.

01:45:06   What was that one called?

01:45:07   - I forget, it was terrible.

01:45:09   I undid that within like a week.

01:45:10   - Yeah, it's too scary for me.

01:45:12   - I've tried a lot of those apps.

01:45:13   - I don't wanna damage delivery of my,

01:45:16   phone calls are too important for me to allow it

01:45:17   to actually go through like a third party location

01:45:20   and they get my number and whatever, anyway.

01:45:23   But the call blocking ones that just run on your phone

01:45:25   and just have like a list of known spam numbers,

01:45:27   I run one of those.

01:45:29   They're better than nothing.

01:45:31   The one I do is like $20 a year.

01:45:33   I think it's no more robo, which means N-O-M-O-R-O-B-O,

01:45:38   no more robo calls.

01:45:40   It catches a bunch of stuff.

01:45:42   It catches enough stuff that $20 a year

01:45:44   makes it worth it for me.

01:45:45   It does not catch all of it, not even close, right?

01:45:48   So then I'm left with what gets through.

01:45:50   I am also a serial blocker.

01:45:52   If I get any call from anybody ever,

01:45:54   if it's a voicemail about my car warranty,

01:45:57   if it's a voicemail that's in a language

01:45:58   that I don't understand, like literally anything.

01:46:01   Block, block, block, block, block.

01:46:02   Just block like crazy.

01:46:04   And it's frustrating because you're like,

01:46:06   I block the same, like I feel like I should get that app

01:46:08   that Marco had, I block the same looking numbers

01:46:11   a million times, how many of these do they have?

01:46:13   I guess they have 10,000,

01:46:14   'cause that same six inches is the same,

01:46:15   they're just gonna cycle through them

01:46:17   to put this message in Chinese that I don't understand

01:46:20   and they keep sending it to me, right?

01:46:22   So that's frustrating, but you do sort of like

01:46:25   start to win that war of attrition

01:46:27   because there aren't that many numbers, right?

01:46:30   I do have a one weird factor that factors into this.

01:46:34   This is why, I don't do the block unknown callers

01:46:37   'cause I just, it's kind of like ad blocking on my Mac.

01:46:42   It's more frustrating for me when a site doesn't work

01:46:44   because of an ad blocker than it is for me

01:46:45   to deal with the ads.

01:46:46   So that's why I'm less inclined to block as aggressively

01:46:50   on my Mac as I do on my phone.

01:46:52   I don't want to miss calls.

01:46:54   It's just the car dealer calling or someone you have working on the house or the food delivery person

01:47:00   It's frustrating for me when they go to voicemail, especially if I don't know, you know

01:47:03   So I don't do the nuclear option of like block all unknown callers, right?

01:47:07   but that means a lot of stuff does come through and the reason I

01:47:11   can't

01:47:13   100% ignore every single unknown call which is my inclination by the way if a call comes into my phone

01:47:17   I don't recognize the number. I just you know tap the power button and you know, ignore it right that that is what I do

01:47:22   100% of the time so I'm basically implementing block on non callers myself

01:47:26   Unless I know that food is being delivered or I know my car is a dealership like those are the situations

01:47:31   Oh, I do try to put those people in my context. So I get a good name for them

01:47:34   But the one weird thing that I have is my telephone number is one digit off from a telephone number in a local hospital

01:47:40   And so I get calls on that number and they leave voicemails about like patient X is coming in on Y or whatever

01:47:51   whatever.

01:47:52   Oh, God.

01:47:53   And I feel bad about that.

01:47:54   And so what I do with those people is I answer, right?

01:47:57   Because I can tell.

01:48:01   Because they're not spammers, their caller ID will come up and it will say such and such

01:48:05   hospital.

01:48:06   Because they're always calling from inside the hospital to another department in the

01:48:08   hospital.

01:48:09   The caller's coming from inside the hospital.

01:48:10   Right, right.

01:48:11   And so when I see that hospital number, first of all, when it started happening, I'm like,

01:48:15   "Oh my God, my wife is dead in a car accident."

01:48:17   Right?

01:48:18   I figured this out after maybe a year or two by getting someone on the phone and say what number did you dial and figure?

01:48:23   Oh, it's one digit off like people are just you know, typos it right

01:48:26   So now when I get those calls, they're trying to talk to a hospital and you're trying to interview them

01:48:31   Wait before you go, it's just administrative stuff. It's like this department saying hey

01:48:37   This person's coming down or this is coming up or do you have this or whatever?

01:48:40   You know, it's like it's not always like a life-or-death emergency

01:48:43   But I do feel bad because they leave voicemail and they think they're leaving voicemail at the whatever department, right?

01:48:48   And they're not, like it's never gonna happen,

01:48:50   you're never gonna connect, it's on my phone, right?

01:48:52   So I pick up every single one of those calls

01:48:55   and just say, you've got the wrong number, right?

01:48:57   And they say, oh sorry, and they don't call back, right?

01:49:00   Because they're legitimate people, right?

01:49:02   I don't even remember what the thing is.

01:49:03   I don't interview them anymore to say

01:49:05   what number did you dial,

01:49:06   because very often they don't know

01:49:07   because they just punched a button

01:49:08   on one of those like million button phones

01:49:09   that's inside a hospital or whatever.

01:49:11   So that's why in my special case,

01:49:13   I can't actually ignore every single call

01:49:17   If it says the hospital that's near me as the caller ID,

01:49:20   I pick it up and I get to talk to a person

01:49:23   in the healthcare industry and tell them

01:49:24   that they have the wrong number.

01:49:26   - They keep you company during the day, right?

01:49:28   - It's not that frequent, it's surprisingly infrequent

01:49:30   because I think people don't type,

01:49:32   like how often do you type a phone number on a keypad,

01:49:35   but somebody's doing it because they're off by one digit.

01:49:38   - These are your coworkers now.

01:49:40   - Around the water cooler you're asking them like,

01:49:43   "Hey, did you see the latest episode

01:49:44   "of the TV show last night?"

01:49:46   How about that sports team?

01:49:48   All right, thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:49:51   Squarespace and Mercury Weather.

01:49:53   And thank you to our members who support us directly.

01:49:55   You can join at atp.fm/join.

01:49:58   We will talk to you next week.

01:50:00   (upbeat music)

01:50:03   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:50:05   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:50:08   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:50:10   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:50:13   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:50:15   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, cause it was accidental.

01:50:20   It was accidental.

01:50:23   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

01:50:28   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:50:33   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:50:42   ♪ Anti-Marco, Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:50:47   ♪ U-S-A-C, R-A-Q-S-A ♪

01:50:50   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:50:51   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:50:53   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:50:55   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:50:57   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:50:58   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:51:00   ♪ So long ♪

01:51:02   - So the cloud has stopped over the List family,

01:51:08   or three quarters of the List family.

01:51:10   And this past weekend, we had a bunch of plans, right?

01:51:14   We were gonna hang out with some friends

01:51:16   on Friday at their house.

01:51:18   And then on Saturday, we were supposed to have a double date

01:51:21   with another different couple, friends of ours.

01:51:25   And we were gonna ship the kids off to my parents,

01:51:27   which is a very rare treat.

01:51:30   And I convinced my parents,

01:51:32   which actually didn't take too much convincing,

01:51:33   but I had convinced them,

01:51:34   "Hey, why don't you insist on taking the dog too,

01:51:37   "so this way, Erin and I would be alone,

01:51:40   and then this way I could treat her to a little one-night staycation in downtown Richmond.

01:51:46   And so I booked a room for the two of us at some bougie hotel that I've never been to

01:51:52   that sounded pretty cool.

01:51:54   And we were going to go do dinner.

01:51:56   And then we're going to White Castle.

01:51:58   I got to go to White Castle.

01:51:59   I wish.

01:52:00   There's none anywhere near me.

01:52:01   Probably for the best.

01:52:02   Yeah, probably.

01:52:03   Yeah, probably. We were gonna go to a local Mexican restaurant, or well, I don't know if it's strictly

01:52:10   speaking Mexican. It's in that neck of the woods, so to speak. But anyways, we're gonna do that, and

01:52:14   then we were, you know, stay overnight, and, and, you know, it would live like, you know, what is it,

01:52:19   childless and carefree, carefree and child—I don't know, I can't think of the term and phrase, term and phrase

01:52:22   I'm looking for, but we're gonna do all that, and then, you know, we would go to mom and dad's on

01:52:26   Sunday and pick up the kids, and then I don't think we had any particular plans Sunday. And Aaron woke

01:52:32   up Friday morning and she had a little bit of a sniffle and I had gone to lunch with a friend on

01:52:40   Friday, you know, midday and then shortly after the lunch I had a smidgen of a sniffle and then at

01:52:47   about like 3.30, Erin says to me, "You know, my throat kind of hurt--" "What?" "Uh-oh." "My throat

01:52:53   Kind of hurts a little bit.

01:52:55   So I said, "Does it now?"

01:52:57   She's like, "Mm, yeah."

01:52:59   So we look at each other and we both kind of say

01:53:04   to each other at the same time,

01:53:06   "We should probably test, shouldn't we?"

01:53:09   And we were both like, "But I don't want to

01:53:11   "because I don't want to scuttle our entire weekend

01:53:14   "that we have all these plans."

01:53:16   And so sure enough, Erin tests and she has COVID.

01:53:20   I run upstairs to try to cancel the hotel room

01:53:22   that actually ends up was I had booked as non-refundable,

01:53:25   but I threw myself at the mercy of the court

01:53:27   and was like, look, my wife literally two minutes ago

01:53:29   just realized she had COVID.

01:53:31   I don't think you want me parading around your hotel.

01:53:34   You know, is there anything you can do?

01:53:35   And as far as I know, they did indeed cancel it.

01:53:38   By the time I came back downstairs,

01:53:41   Declan had tested positive.

01:53:43   Mikayla had somehow tested negative,

01:53:44   which I'm not entirely clear how.

01:53:46   And then I tested and I tested positive.

01:53:49   So we avoided it. This was February 10. We had gone on, you know, what we had called our lockdown

01:53:56   I don't know if you by many standards. It was not a lockdown, but you know for us it was a lockdown

01:54:01   We had done that on March 13 of 2020

01:54:05   So we had made it a month in three days shy of three years before

01:54:10   We finally got zapped you would think that this was Disney related, but Disney was like three weeks ago

01:54:15   So I don't know how we survived the state of Florida

01:54:20   without coming home with a souvenir.

01:54:23   Like by that I mean COVID.

01:54:25   - Or a gunshot wound or an alligator bite.

01:54:28   - Exactly, or a hurricane that just randomly came through.

01:54:31   - Florida is just a very high risk area

01:54:34   for lots of problems.

01:54:35   - Yeah, it's our Australia or something like that.

01:54:38   But anyways.

01:54:39   - I think Australia is safer.

01:54:40   - Yeah, probably.

01:54:41   Certainly the people are better.

01:54:43   But anyway, point being, yeah,

01:54:45   So we survived Disney World, and again,

01:54:47   we had masked religiously on the way there and back.

01:54:49   Once we were there, it was like, "Woo, who cares?"

01:54:51   And so we survived Disney.

01:54:53   We did blow up all of our plans,

01:54:56   and we immediately canceled everything, as you should,

01:54:59   and as we felt like we needed to.

01:55:01   And that was a bummer, but all things being said,

01:55:07   I would much rather cancel the plans with friends here,

01:55:11   and even if the hotel room was non-refundable,

01:55:15   then I'd still rather have that go wrong than Disney World.

01:55:20   But that being said, I'm fine.

01:55:22   I had a moderate cold.

01:55:24   Aaron had a fairly severe cold.

01:55:27   Declan has been boinging off the walls the entire time.

01:55:29   Michaela doesn't seem to be any worse

01:55:34   in any way, shape, or form.

01:55:35   So yeah, this has been a surprising bit

01:55:39   of a nothing burger for us, but you never know, right?

01:55:44   and I'll make another call back to your daily Lex,

01:55:47   our mutual friend Lex Friedman had just gotten over COVID

01:55:50   and he had a real rough go of it.

01:55:52   And the LISTS family is vaccinated,

01:55:54   to the best of my knowledge, LEX was vaccinated as well.

01:55:57   The LISTS family, I can tell you for a fact, is boosted.

01:55:59   I wonder, although I think this is very biologically shaky,

01:56:02   but I wonder if the reason Michaela never,

01:56:04   and we've tested her a couple times now,

01:56:06   has never tested positive and has only a sniffle at worst,

01:56:09   I wonder if that's because she got her most recent booster

01:56:12   literally like two or three days before we left for Disney.

01:56:15   And so that's still maybe coursing through her blood.

01:56:17   Again, that's probably biologically shaky,

01:56:19   but it's the best theory I've got.

01:56:22   - I mean, she got a most recent booster

01:56:23   like within three weeks ago.

01:56:25   I think that's a pretty,

01:56:26   she's at peak resistance at that point.

01:56:29   - Right, right. - So I think that's actually

01:56:30   pretty reasonable of an assumption to make.

01:56:32   - Yeah, I mean, who knows?

01:56:33   It doesn't really matter.

01:56:34   I don't know where it came from.

01:56:35   I don't really know who patient zero was.

01:56:37   The other theory we have is maybe Michaela brought it home

01:56:39   and we were just none the wiser,

01:56:40   and she already got over it by the time

01:56:42   and the rest of us started to fall.

01:56:44   But it's funny because-- - Very possible.

01:56:46   - The only reason we even tested in the first place,

01:56:48   well, slightly it was Aaron saying,

01:56:50   "Oh, I have a sore throat."

01:56:51   But most of it was just 'cause we didn't wanna be turds

01:56:53   and spread this to all our friends

01:56:55   if it ended up that it was COVID.

01:56:57   And at the time that we tested, none of us felt bad.

01:57:01   Again, it was a sniffle for everyone at worst.

01:57:03   And then just a touch, just the teeniest little kiss

01:57:05   of a sore throat for Aaron.

01:57:07   Now, it turns out that night she had a terrible night's sleep

01:57:09   like had a real bad sinus headache

01:57:11   or something along those lines.

01:57:12   The next day she had a real bad cough.

01:57:15   I had a bit of a cough for a day or two.

01:57:17   I've been stuffy and not stuffy and stuffy and not stuffy.

01:57:19   So again, for me it's like moderate cold,

01:57:21   for her severe cold.

01:57:23   But it's been not that bad.

01:57:25   And hey, yay science, because I'm going to assume

01:57:29   that the reason it hasn't been that bad

01:57:30   for really any of us is because we are indeed vaccinated.

01:57:33   So I'm very happy for that.

01:57:36   I'm very thankful that we were able to last

01:57:39   damn near three years before it happening.

01:57:41   We'll probably talk a little bit more about this

01:57:43   in analog at the beginning of next month,

01:57:45   and I'll probably get into more gory details

01:57:46   about the whole thing.

01:57:47   But I'm both a little sad that we finally fell,

01:57:51   but also in a way, I mean, not that we had been

01:57:54   really limiting ourselves in any particular way

01:57:57   for the most part, but we still weren't sure.

01:57:59   Were we gonna have crummy luck like Lex,

01:58:01   where he was knocked the F out for like a week

01:58:04   from what I could tell?

01:58:06   Or was it gonna be kind of a nothing burger?

01:58:08   And it turns out it's been mostly a nothing burger.

01:58:11   And so now, you know, the specter of COVID,

01:58:14   I mean, granted, you don't want to get it again.

01:58:16   I still don't know if I'm gonna have

01:58:17   some sort of long COVID symptom,

01:58:18   but given that I don't have any

01:58:20   particularly bad symptoms right now, I assume not.

01:58:23   So I feel like that specter is now fizzling,

01:58:29   which, that's not a word, is it?

01:58:32   But you know what I mean.

01:58:34   It's not as strong as it once was.

01:58:37   It's kind of fizzled, I think that's the word I'm looking for.

01:58:40   And so, hey, COVID brain, right?

01:58:43   - Oh, God.

01:58:44   - Right.

01:58:45   You know, all kidding aside, I don't want to get it again.

01:58:47   Like, I'm not going to be a complete moron

01:58:49   and just be like, well, you know, I'm now invincible.

01:58:52   But it is nice to know that because of science

01:58:56   and because we tried to do what we could

01:58:58   to wait as long as we could before, you know,

01:59:00   we put ourselves in a position to get it,

01:59:02   I like to think, knock on wood, that, you know,

01:59:05   Hopefully we're just a few days away from being in the clear.

01:59:08   So, Jon, it's your turn, baby.

01:59:10   It's only a matter of time.

01:59:11   - I think I'll pass.

01:59:12   I've listened to Lex's podcast as well

01:59:13   and hearing how bad it was for him

01:59:15   and also how, I mean, obviously it hasn't been that long

01:59:18   since he had it, it was a couple of weeks now,

01:59:20   but like still feeling winded and like that kind of recovery.

01:59:23   No thanks, I don't want any of that.

01:59:26   Pass on that entirely.

01:59:28   And because of the new variants and everything like that,

01:59:31   it's not as if getting it,

01:59:33   is like getting chicken pox and you're fine now.

01:59:36   Nope, and I think COVID kind of like measles,

01:59:38   but not to the same degree,

01:59:40   like attacks your immune system

01:59:43   so that after you get COVID,

01:59:45   like subsequent infections,

01:59:47   even with the same strain can be worse

01:59:48   because it's messes with your immunities,

01:59:51   instead of being like,

01:59:54   okay, well now your body has seen it and you're fine.

01:59:56   And again, no thanks, don't want any of that.

02:00:00   Even if I have mild symptoms,

02:00:01   I don't want that thing running around.

02:00:03   So, I mean, here's the thing with it.

02:00:05   Like in the case of Michaela,

02:00:07   maybe Michaela had it and you didn't even notice.

02:00:09   - Yeah, very much so.

02:00:10   - As far as I know, I have never had COVID,

02:00:12   but I can't be sure.

02:00:13   I'm not testing every single day.

02:00:15   Like I haven't felt sick.

02:00:17   And when I have felt sick, I have taken COVID tests.

02:00:20   Like, I mean, my daughter is having the same thing.

02:00:22   Oh, I've got a sore throat.

02:00:23   I've got this, I've got that.

02:00:24   We've used so many tests.

02:00:25   She never has it.

02:00:27   We're just like, we have to use them anyway.

02:00:28   We got all the free tests from the post office or whatever.

02:00:31   All right, so it's annoying every time you get a regular cold

02:00:35   or a regular sniffle to test,

02:00:37   but that's the only time I've ever been testing

02:00:39   is when I have symptoms and they've all been negative.

02:00:41   Maybe I got it and I was asymptomatic.

02:00:43   Maybe I got it a year ago,

02:00:44   but as far as I know, I haven't had it,

02:00:46   and I would like to avoid it

02:00:47   because it is so just random.

02:00:50   It's not like Lex is decrepit and aged, right?

02:00:53   He's similar age to you.

02:00:55   He's fit.

02:00:56   He's on his Peloton all the time.

02:00:57   He's a young, fit person in good health,

02:01:00   and it knocked him on his butt

02:01:02   and he's still recovering from it.

02:01:03   And Casey's in the same situation

02:01:05   and it hasn't been that bad.

02:01:06   And you just never know, right?

02:01:08   And again, I also believe Lex has had all his vaccines,

02:01:11   everything like that.

02:01:11   And so I prefer not to play that lottery

02:01:13   and I will just continue to hope that my luck,

02:01:16   and that's all it is, is luck holds out.

02:01:17   I mean, I mask everywhere,

02:01:19   but the only place I go is the supermarket, the school.

02:01:22   Like, you know, anytime I go to those places,

02:01:25   I am wearing a mask, but you know, come on.

02:01:28   Like, it's just dumb luck.

02:01:29   Like, my mask is not fitted that well.

02:01:32   I'm wearing, you know, KN95 instead of N95s.

02:01:35   And I try to get them to seal around my gigantic nose,

02:01:39   but it's really difficult.

02:01:40   And I try to not be in enclosed places

02:01:42   for a long period of time, but it's just, you know,

02:01:45   when I had friends over recently, we did that podcast,

02:01:47   everybody tested before they came over,

02:01:49   and it's just the courteous thing to do.

02:01:50   It's like, if you're having a big get together,

02:01:52   you know, we didn't mask when we were here,

02:01:54   we all came together and had fun and whatever,

02:01:55   but it's like, hey, just take a test in the morning.

02:01:58   And it's better safe than sorry.

02:02:01   And that's the most frustrating thing about it now,

02:02:03   now that so few people are masking,

02:02:04   fewer and fewer as you get farther

02:02:07   into certain geographic areas.

02:02:08   It's so hard to know where it even came from.

02:02:11   Or if you want to say, did I do something?

02:02:14   Did I put myself at more risk than I

02:02:16   thought I was putting in?

02:02:17   Like in Casey's case, you just have no idea.

02:02:19   You don't have any idea.

02:02:20   Again, it's not even connectable to your Disney vacation.

02:02:24   This stuff is so contagious that it could have been you standing

02:02:27   line at the drugstore for an extra five minutes and the person next to you had it and you were

02:02:31   wearing a mask but it seeped through anyway and it's just you never know but like you know we all

02:02:36   we all have our own risk profiles and we decided to do or not do whatever we want but

02:02:41   these people have had COVID multiple times and it's like worse than each subsequent time

02:02:46   that is like the type of thing I want to avoid right you know there's no way to entirely avoid

02:02:50   getting it unless you never have contact with anybody and I'm not living that way but I still

02:02:56   prefer not to get it. So, and this is not a contest and I'm not winning by not getting it because for

02:03:02   all I know I already had it but I'm going to continue to try to not get it as I assume both

02:03:07   of you will too because it sucks. Yeah, absolutely. No, I a thousand percent agree and you know the

02:03:13   chat room is pointing out and to the best of my knowledge they're correct that you know with each

02:03:16   subsequent infection you have more and more and more of a risk for long COVID and so that's that

02:03:22   that in and of itself is reason to avoid

02:03:24   doing anything particularly stupid or risky.

02:03:27   So yeah, I mean, I don't plan to be even dumber

02:03:31   than maybe I was or wasn't, who knows.

02:03:34   But I don't plan to be even more, I don't know,

02:03:38   aggressive, for lack of a better word.

02:03:40   But I am glad, because I mean,

02:03:43   and maybe this is just a Casey thing, maybe not,

02:03:45   but particularly before Michaela could get her vaccination,

02:03:49   and if you recall, she just turned five

02:03:52   a few weeks ago and up until what, like six months ago,

02:03:55   it was not possible for an under five year old

02:04:01   to get vaccinated and so for the longest time,

02:04:04   we felt like there was nothing we could do

02:04:06   and it was out of our hands,

02:04:07   like there was nothing we could do to get her vaccinated,

02:04:09   there was no vaccine to give her

02:04:11   and I lived in this just abject fear of,

02:04:15   oh my gosh, what if this virus somehow gets into the family

02:04:18   before she has had any modicum of protection

02:04:21   and how terrible that could be.

02:04:25   Now granted, generally speaking,

02:04:27   the younger you are, the easier it is for you.

02:04:29   And certainly in our family,

02:04:30   that seems to be the case for the most part.

02:04:32   But what if it entered the house

02:04:35   and Michaela had not yet been vaccinated?

02:04:37   What if it just knocked her out?

02:04:38   And again, I lived in this abject fear of it.

02:04:42   And so I am relieved to know

02:04:45   that it has run through the house.

02:04:47   And at least this time, none of us,

02:04:51   in the grand scheme of things, seemed too worse for wear.

02:04:55   It seemed like it was mostly just a really crappy cold.

02:04:59   Now, who knows if there's a time two or three or four,

02:05:02   which I would assume that this isn't just gonna go away

02:05:05   suddenly, that there will probably, at some point,

02:05:07   be a time two for each of us and so on and so forth.

02:05:10   Hopefully it won't be worse.

02:05:11   Hopefully it won't lead to long COVID.

02:05:13   But I don't know, it's just, in a way,

02:05:15   a weird relief that this thing that I cowered in fear over, for better or for worse,

02:05:20   it has finally arrived and we seem okay. And I think that's, or at least the way I'm attributing

02:05:28   this, whether it's right or not, who really knows, there's no way to tell, but the way I'm

02:05:32   attributing this is because we thought we should and could, and we got ourselves as vaccinated as

02:05:37   we possibly could. And I stand by that decision. I'm glad I made that decision. I encourage

02:05:42   listeners to do that if you haven't gotten your most recent booster or what have you,

02:05:47   please go ahead and do so because how can it hurt? How could it hurt? And so, yep, that's

02:05:53   the situation around here. But I'm hopeful that in the next few days, I mean, I already

02:05:57   feel like, and again, this was just this past Friday, I'm recording on a Wednesday, it started,

02:06:01   I feel at this point that I'm at like 90% and it's been less than a week. So we've been

02:06:09   very, very lucky with it and hopefully by a week's time, whether or not we're testing

02:06:15   positive or negative, I'm just saying the way I feel, hopefully after a week I'll be

02:06:19   basically right as rain. And again, this is in stark comparison to Lex, who seemed to

02:06:24   be wrecked for three or four days, lost his taste after like day four or five for a couple

02:06:29   of days. He seemed to have a real bad go of it. And just like you said, Jon, I believe

02:06:34   Lex is a year older than Marco and me if memory serves, but he exercises constantly and it

02:06:38   is of good health, like you had said,

02:06:40   it's just you can have crappy luck.

02:06:42   And Lex, unfortunately, had crappy luck.

02:06:44   And his team also lost in the Super Bowl,

02:06:46   so he's had a double dose of crappy luck.

02:06:47   But that's neither, neither there.

02:06:49   - He did finally test negative in time

02:06:51   for his Super Bowl party, though,

02:06:52   because he got it like two weeks before

02:06:54   we could have for the Super Bowl,

02:06:56   and he was worried that he wasn't gonna be able

02:06:57   to have a Super Bowl party.

02:06:58   It was as if he was still testing positive,

02:07:00   but he was tested negative a few days before,

02:07:03   and then had everybody over.

02:07:03   It's kind of disappointing that it doesn't work

02:07:06   like chicken pox does, 'cause you're like,

02:07:08   "Oh, this thing I was dreading

02:07:08   "and now I finally got it over with."

02:07:10   But you haven't really.

02:07:11   In fact, it has put you in a slightly worse situation

02:07:13   than you were before for subsequent infection,

02:07:15   so it's not like, "Oh, that's a relief.

02:07:17   "I got it over with and it was okay."

02:07:18   Not really much relief.

02:07:20   I mean, it's glad that it wasn't bad,

02:07:21   but it's not as if now you don't have to worry about it

02:07:23   anymore, in fact, you have to worry about it now

02:07:25   ever so slightly more than you did before,

02:07:27   because subsequent infections are worse.

02:07:29   So it just really sucks.

02:07:30   And presumably there'll be new vaccines

02:07:33   for whatever the new variants are.

02:07:36   the vaccines are just lagging behind the variants

02:07:38   by a substantial amount.

02:07:39   When I got the latest vaccine,

02:07:41   the variant that protected it against was prominent.

02:07:44   So it was great, thumbs up.

02:07:46   But since that variant is gone,

02:07:48   and like five new ones have come and gone,

02:07:50   and the vaccine is not as helpful against those.

02:07:54   And so it's almost like you wish

02:07:55   there was a new vaccine every month,

02:07:57   but that would be a little bit much,

02:07:58   and science can't do that.

02:07:59   So I'm still holding out hope for, you know,

02:08:02   superior vaccine research that can protect against future variants in a more sophisticated

02:08:08   way.

02:08:09   Fingers crossed.

02:08:09   [beeping]

02:08:11   (beep)