The Accidental Tech Podcast

157: As Many People in the Sandbox as Possible


00:00:00   the following is the complete list of [TS]

00:00:03   saying states in these United States of [TS]

00:00:06   America that require only a real rear [TS]

00:00:08   license plate Alabama Arizona Arkansas [TS]

00:00:10   Delaware Florida Georgia Indiana Kansas [TS]

00:00:12   Kentucky Louisiana Michigan Mississippi [TS]

00:00:13   New Mexico North Carolina Oklahoma [TS]

00:00:15   Pennsylvania South Carolina Tennessee [TS]

00:00:17   and West Virginia you'll notice that [TS]

00:00:18   very nearby states North Carolina [TS]

00:00:20   Pennsylvania West Virginia all no front [TS]

00:00:24   license plate frame virginia now out of [TS]

00:00:27   curiosity can you think of any other [TS]

00:00:29   criterion for which those would be [TS]

00:00:32   listed as the same States not off the [TS]

00:00:35   top of my head so we should i do some [TS]

00:00:38   follow-up and follow ya keep you I Scott [TS]

00:00:42   I can't believe I just did that I swore [TS]

00:00:44   I'd never do that on a podcast just just [TS]

00:00:46   hated me into it [TS]

00:00:48   I hate everything alright i quit anyway [TS]

00:00:50   I'm so we had some feedback about my [TS]

00:00:52   ipad tale of woe [TS]

00:00:54   we had a lot of private feedback from my [TS]

00:00:56   curly the once ipad hater now King ipad [TS]

00:01:00   evangelizer I'm i would never said I [TS]

00:01:02   would never classified as a hater he was [TS]

00:01:04   more of an ipad in different here and [TS]

00:01:07   that's a word that is made up i don't [TS]

00:01:09   know maybe he was fairly anti pad for a [TS]

00:01:12   while there but anyways he gave me some [TS]

00:01:15   feedback they basically said i didn't [TS]

00:01:16   know what i was doing and that's the [TS]

00:01:17   problem which I believe I admitted a lot [TS]

00:01:20   of people basically said the same thing [TS]

00:01:22   and the point you know I was trying to [TS]

00:01:23   make was hey you know all this stuff [TS]

00:01:25   comes right out of the box [TS]

00:01:26   I know s10 and it is not on the ipad i [TS]

00:01:29   accept a lot of people wrote in to say [TS]

00:01:31   that you can in fact do a signature on a [TS]

00:01:37   PDF on an iOS device and apparently [TS]

00:01:40   there's a toolbox which to me looks like [TS]

00:01:42   a briefcase icon and within there is the [TS]

00:01:46   annotations and markup and whatnot and [TS]

00:01:48   within their you can do a signature i [TS]

00:01:50   have not had the chance to try this [TS]

00:01:51   myself but I had plenty of people tell [TS]

00:01:54   me about this so I'm taking it as fact [TS]

00:01:56   that is the case so that is just a [TS]

00:01:59   little bit of follow-up you can indeed [TS]

00:02:00   do the signature on an iOS device did [TS]

00:02:03   you mistake the briefcase icon for the [TS]

00:02:05   windows 95 my briefcase he used you say [TS]

00:02:09   that jokingly but I was a heavy [TS]

00:02:10   briefcases our way back and a [TS]

00:02:12   because that was about the best way in [TS]

00:02:14   the windows world to do kind of like a [TS]

00:02:16   poor man's rsync between your laptop in [TS]

00:02:19   your desktop which is what i was doing [TS]

00:02:20   toward the end of college you know it [TS]

00:02:22   was kind of like the it was like the the [TS]

00:02:24   floppy disk stage of evolution towards [TS]

00:02:26   the dropbox right that was also kind of [TS]

00:02:28   the hangover of the the desktop metaphor [TS]

00:02:30   they did the drunken orgy that was the [TS]

00:02:34   desktop metaphor like Oh folders there [TS]

00:02:37   just like folders that go on file [TS]

00:02:38   cabinets and there's a little trash can [TS]

00:02:40   and so on and so forth and people would [TS]

00:02:41   latch onto that idea that's why the [TS]

00:02:44   Macintosh is easier to use because it [TS]

00:02:46   has all these analogies to the real [TS]

00:02:47   world and so people what else is in [TS]

00:02:50   office like carpeting and it's like it's [TS]

00:02:52   like this windows we already got those [TS]

00:02:54   my carpeting you're exactly you know and [TS]

00:02:57   and that with the recycle recycle bin [TS]

00:03:00   because it's not like trash because [TS]

00:03:01   we're trendy than that and i guess like [TS]

00:03:03   a blotter maybe I mean magic cap one on [TS]

00:03:05   whole hog that like living rooms and [TS]

00:03:06   ends and operations like briefcase [TS]

00:03:08   briefcase i know briefcase and so you [TS]

00:03:10   got a briefcase and windows and but what [TS]

00:03:12   about bob bob is after you go nuts and [TS]

00:03:16   huh [TS]

00:03:17   and this is the vision divisions you see [TS]

00:03:18   in your head bob was like the jumping [TS]

00:03:21   over the shark and doing the fridge of [TS]

00:03:23   that metaphor is Magic app you should [TS]

00:03:25   look at Magic camp look like it was very [TS]

00:03:27   similar in terms of like making rooms of [TS]

00:03:28   the house it became like maniac mansion [TS]

00:03:30   it was like you know Sierra adventure [TS]

00:03:32   where you're going room to room and you [TS]

00:03:34   have these little anyway briefcase was [TS]

00:03:36   one of them and Apple itself to the same [TS]

00:03:38   type of thing where they got distracted [TS]

00:03:40   for a bit and thought that what made [TS]

00:03:42   computers easy-to-use was specifically [TS]

00:03:44   the connections with your world things [TS]

00:03:47   and not all the other stuff that goes [TS]

00:03:48   along with it now we have everything [TS]

00:03:50   flat never would happen it's got fourth [TS]

00:03:53   was still alive [TS]

00:03:54   that's true we still don't have a good [TS]

00:03:56   alternative Save icon so and actually [TS]

00:03:58   can continue guys a big secret I've been [TS]

00:04:00   holding this in all these years my [TS]

00:04:02   computer at the time was not good enough [TS]

00:04:04   to run it but there was one because I i [TS]

00:04:06   basically in my pc growing up era I [TS]

00:04:09   spent a lot more time everybody else did [TS]

00:04:11   on Windows 3.1 I did not go to 95 i was [TS]

00:04:13   using 3.1 until nineteen ninety-eight I [TS]

00:04:15   went straight 98 the there was a brief [TS]

00:04:18   time where I went to a friend's house [TS]

00:04:19   and I saw microsoft bobbin on their [TS]

00:04:21   pentium computer because it wouldn't run [TS]

00:04:23   mine [TS]

00:04:24   and I really thought it was the coolest [TS]

00:04:25   thing I've ever seen that is a bold bold [TS]

00:04:29   confession [TS]

00:04:30   yeah I don't really remember it when i [TS]

00:04:32   was around I was all over windows during [TS]

00:04:34   this time but I don't really remember [TS]

00:04:35   Bob very well at all i don't know if i [TS]

00:04:37   ever saw or maybe I just blocked it from [TS]

00:04:39   my memory but i don't remember it [TS]

00:04:43   I mean it was just it was like a it was [TS]

00:04:44   just like a shell that you would launch [TS]

00:04:46   from window they didn't replace that the [TS]

00:04:48   shell it was like a sub it was like a [TS]

00:04:49   giant app and you would like do things [TS]

00:04:51   inside of Bob and it was so incredibly [TS]

00:04:54   slow and any of this was this was during [TS]

00:04:55   like that the super dark era of of [TS]

00:04:58   computing where the hard drives were all [TS]

00:05:00   super slow and grinding constantly [TS]

00:05:02   because there was not enough for him to [TS]

00:05:03   do anything and so it was that this was [TS]

00:05:06   like the dark likely mid to late [TS]

00:05:08   nineties in computing we're just [TS]

00:05:10   everything just the entire side of [TS]

00:05:12   computing for that entire area was hard [TS]

00:05:14   drive grinding noises you guys both [TS]

00:05:16   minus the floppy disk grinding error of [TS]

00:05:19   computers where you could tell what your [TS]

00:05:20   computer is doing by the particular [TS]

00:05:21   tones your floppy drive know you say [TS]

00:05:24   that but I was definitely rocking both [TS]

00:05:26   the actual floppy floppy what is that [TS]

00:05:29   five and a quarter i always get this [TS]

00:05:30   backwards yes i'm a quarter final [TS]

00:05:32   quarter three-and-a-half so yes Ida Ida [TS]

00:05:34   five and a quarter floppy drive in 88 [TS]

00:05:38   that my dad had used years prior and was [TS]

00:05:42   that I'd set up in my room and I [TS]

00:05:43   remember I thought I was awesome because [TS]

00:05:45   it had a 10 meg hard drive in and at the [TS]

00:05:47   time that was effectively infinite space [TS]

00:05:50   like you'd you couldn't feel it if you [TS]

00:05:52   wanted to but yeah I've definitely heard [TS]

00:05:55   that teaching is constantly on now all [TS]

00:05:59   these kids these days that with their [TS]

00:06:00   windows pcs they have the drive letters [TS]

00:06:02   that start with C and they have no idea [TS]

00:06:03   why they don't have an A&B drive but [TS]

00:06:05   they should really be as a weeping over [TS]

00:06:06   the fact that they still have drive [TS]

00:06:08   letters [TS]

00:06:08   there's that was hilarious but you got a [TS]

00:06:11   grade on a curve with Windows that [TS]

00:06:13   that's also true i believe this same [TS]

00:06:15   technique hard drive 88 had a the a [TS]

00:06:18   drive i believe is the five and a [TS]

00:06:19   quarter almost got that wrong five and a [TS]

00:06:21   quarter inch stride and i believe the be [TS]

00:06:23   drive was a three-and-a-half inch [TS]

00:06:25   low-density floppy so that was what like [TS]

00:06:28   750 k or something like that and that [TS]

00:06:30   was external i should add which was [TS]

00:06:32   really cool probably scuzzy but anyway [TS]

00:06:35   the only other thing I want to [TS]

00:06:37   brings background I to say about the [TS]

00:06:39   ipad is a lot of people wrote to say hey [TS]

00:06:41   you idiot the ipad has a camera and yes [TS]

00:06:43   that's weird why didn't you just use the [TS]

00:06:45   camera to take a picture of the [TS]

00:06:46   documents and use any one of these 350 [TS]

00:06:48   different apps that that people [TS]

00:06:50   recommended in order to scan and I'm [TS]

00:06:52   doing mega air quotes here scam the PDF [TS]

00:06:54   and that is a perfectly valid answer and [TS]

00:06:58   i have one of those apps on my phone and [TS]

00:06:59   on my iPad and it does work surprisingly [TS]

00:07:01   well but why on earth would I do that [TS]

00:07:04   when I had a full-on probably [TS]

00:07:07   multi-thousand dollar scanning machine [TS]

00:07:09   one of those multifunction printers in [TS]

00:07:12   the office right there ready and waiting [TS]

00:07:13   the fidelity of that scam was going to [TS]

00:07:15   be far superior to any yo software [TS]

00:07:18   flattened picture of a piece of paper [TS]

00:07:20   plus there's quite a bit that I was [TS]

00:07:21   scanning and want to spend all that time [TS]

00:07:23   doing all that instead I spent all that [TS]

00:07:25   time trying to get it all in the dropbox [TS]

00:07:26   there that's better [TS]

00:07:29   yeah that's totally better so nice i [TS]

00:07:31   just wanted to follow up on that the [TS]

00:07:33   other thing I wanted to note is we were [TS]

00:07:35   talking last week about bluetooth [TS]

00:07:37   headphones and Bluetooth latency and [TS]

00:07:40   some other miscellaneous things and by [TS]

00:07:43   accident today i noticed something [TS]

00:07:45   completely striking and to back up just [TS]

00:07:47   a half-step you've talked Marco and [TS]

00:07:50   we've talked and I've talked in the past [TS]

00:07:51   about how I don't really understand why [TS]

00:07:54   everyone gets their they're all up in [TS]

00:07:58   arms about bluetooth latency especially [TS]

00:08:00   when watching video because i never see [TS]

00:08:02   this and as well as we discussed last [TS]

00:08:04   episode i use these like fairly well [TS]

00:08:07   really cheap in fairly crappy bluetooth [TS]

00:08:09   headphones that I love don't get me [TS]

00:08:11   wrong but they're unremarkable in every [TS]

00:08:13   measurable way and i never get this [TS]

00:08:15   video agency that everyone else seems to [TS]

00:08:18   get well today John and tweeted a link [TS]

00:08:21   to a video with one of the dudes from [TS]

00:08:23   the wire punk window appears so he [TS]

00:08:27   tweeted a link geometry to link up that [TS]

00:08:28   was 10 psi believe you're right Marco [TS]

00:08:30   talking about it was actually very [TS]

00:08:32   interesting talking about being stopped [TS]

00:08:33   in real life by police officer and I was [TS]

00:08:36   on my work computer and I had click the [TS]

00:08:39   link in my work computer because we're [TS]

00:08:42   all in on Google Apps chrome is my [TS]

00:08:44   default browser and this is the first [TS]

00:08:45   time that's ever been the case and so I [TS]

00:08:48   started watching this video and chrome [TS]

00:08:49   and I was like oh my [TS]

00:08:51   goodness this latency is ridiculous it's [TS]

00:08:54   terrible [TS]

00:08:55   we decided yep that's never ever [TS]

00:08:58   happened to me before ever [TS]

00:09:01   so I copy the link dropped in safari [TS]

00:09:04   perfect no problems whatsoever [TS]

00:09:06   this is a youtube video i don't know [TS]

00:09:10   what it is but miles em wrote in when I [TS]

00:09:12   tweet tweet about this and said so far [TS]

00:09:14   use the system API to play video but [TS]

00:09:16   chrome reimplement everything itself [TS]

00:09:18   down to the media decoders I have no [TS]

00:09:20   idea if that's true or not but i can [TS]

00:09:23   tell you that anecdotally based on one [TS]

00:09:25   video I watched during the day today [TS]

00:09:27   it certainly seemed like that very well [TS]

00:09:29   may be the case and I was stunned by the [TS]

00:09:32   fact that it happened be how bad it was [TS]

00:09:33   and so I wonder if all these people that [TS]

00:09:35   are whining and moaning about this [TS]

00:09:37   bluetooth latency are just chrome users [TS]

00:09:39   and because of that they they see this [TS]

00:09:43   terrible agency so they're all thinking [TS]

00:09:44   man i'm crazy how could I not see this [TS]

00:09:46   as at the same time thinking man they [TS]

00:09:48   are crazy [TS]

00:09:49   why are they seeing this and it turns [TS]

00:09:51   out it's just another reason why you [TS]

00:09:52   shouldn't be using chrome turns out [TS]

00:09:53   everyone is crazy [TS]

00:09:54   no i mean so that their that you're [TS]

00:09:56   exactly right that basically that did [TS]

00:09:58   that there is Bluetooth latency on any [TS]

00:10:01   Bluetooth device there is latency not [TS]

00:10:03   about his airplane airplane is fixed at [TS]

00:10:04   two seconds regardless and that seems [TS]

00:10:06   like forever when trying something [TS]

00:10:07   happen [TS]

00:10:07   bluetooth is way shorter than that can [TS]

00:10:09   be used in substantially less than a [TS]

00:10:10   second but there is still noticeable [TS]

00:10:12   agency and humans can take latency in [TS]

00:10:14   video where the audio isn't synched up [TS]

00:10:16   properly to like what like watching [TS]

00:10:18   people's mouths move and they talk we [TS]

00:10:20   can detect very very small isolated and [TS]

00:10:21   just looks wrong to us so it has to be [TS]

00:10:23   perfectly when you're watching people [TS]

00:10:25   speak there can't be any any weird [TS]

00:10:27   latency between the audio/video Apple [TS]

00:10:29   knows this so they're in their system [TS]

00:10:31   frameworks for iOS and OS 10 most [TS]

00:10:34   bluetooth headphones they they have some [TS]

00:10:36   way I don't know the details of how [TS]

00:10:38   should they have some way of [TS]

00:10:39   establishing with the headset what the [TS]

00:10:41   latency is and then compensating for it [TS]

00:10:43   the downside of this first of all you [TS]

00:10:45   just found one which is that it only [TS]

00:10:47   works in things that use the AV [TS]

00:10:48   frameworks no downside is that not every [TS]

00:10:51   headphone supports this and so like I've [TS]

00:10:53   tested probably five or six sensible [TS]

00:10:55   have fun now and only I think two of [TS]

00:10:57   them actually properly didn't have any [TS]

00:11:00   latency and the the rest all had on his [TS]

00:11:03   rival agency even when you [TS]

00:11:04   in the system video player even on ios4 [TS]

00:11:07   you think that would be most commonly [TS]

00:11:08   tested and the other problem is games [TS]

00:11:12   you know video can account for this [TS]

00:11:15   game's almost always can't and don't and [TS]

00:11:19   so it works fine if you are using your [TS]

00:11:21   headphones to watch a video in the [TS]

00:11:24   built-in system API player in something [TS]

00:11:26   that works fine that's probably all [TS]

00:11:28   you've ever done right [TS]

00:11:29   yeah I mean I think so I I can't imagine [TS]

00:11:32   a time other than when i was in chrome [TS]

00:11:34   that I wasn't using just the system [TS]

00:11:35   frameworks right but if it's especially [TS]

00:11:38   problem if you're trying to play games [TS]

00:11:39   with bluetooth headphones you base it's [TS]

00:11:42   basically impossible you basically can't [TS]

00:11:44   unless you are just not listening to the [TS]

00:11:45   game audio and listen to music or [TS]

00:11:47   something that just always crazy how [TS]

00:11:49   know John any thoughts on this [TS]

00:11:50   I just think that I hope that in the [TS]

00:11:53   future they will keep improving these [TS]

00:11:55   wireless audio api is to eliminate these [TS]

00:11:58   problems because it's kind of a shame [TS]

00:12:00   that it requires the deep integration of [TS]

00:12:02   the system API is with all this [TS]

00:12:03   compensation getting everything get it [TS]

00:12:05   crunk should be able to do it correctly [TS]

00:12:06   in other words it shouldn't be such a [TS]

00:12:09   problem so I by I don't know what the [TS]

00:12:11   what the limitations are that are [TS]

00:12:13   requiring this but I no bluetooth [TS]

00:12:14   continues to evolve and I think it needs [TS]

00:12:16   to continue to evolve because it's [TS]

00:12:17   obviously not quite good enough yet [TS]

00:12:19   well and you know there's there's to [TS]

00:12:22   some degree there's always going to be [TS]

00:12:23   some latency inherent in a digital [TS]

00:12:26   signal being transmitted being accepted [TS]

00:12:29   over wireless network being decoded from [TS]

00:12:31   digital to analog in certain no chunks [TS]

00:12:33   of blocks and as always you know with [TS]

00:12:36   with audio latency you're always having [TS]

00:12:38   this this trade-off if you make the [TS]

00:12:39   latency really short [TS]

00:12:40   that means you have really short buffers [TS]

00:12:42   on all the sides which means it becomes [TS]

00:12:43   extremely sensitive to cutting out with [TS]

00:12:46   any kind of reception drop or or flaky [TS]

00:12:49   signal or anything so if you have very [TS]

00:12:51   very low latency it is very fragile or [TS]

00:12:54   if you is if you increase the latency [TS]

00:12:55   then you have more tolerance for [TS]

00:12:58   weirdness in the signal you can like [TS]

00:12:59   back off a little bit and burst the data [TS]

00:13:01   that you missed before the latency has [TS]

00:13:03   caught up just like the old auntie skip [TS]

00:13:05   things and investment you have you ever [TS]

00:13:07   had with the hoods non same thing [TS]

00:13:09   there's all these trade-offs and it just [TS]

00:13:12   might not be worth it if most people are [TS]

00:13:14   fine most of the time or if the or you [TS]

00:13:16   know if I [TS]

00:13:17   which often happens often happens in the [TS]

00:13:19   case with technological progress if the [TS]

00:13:21   if the new way of doing things [TS]

00:13:23   does have shortcomings and downsides [TS]

00:13:25   that people are just ok with because the [TS]

00:13:27   upside make it worth it [TS]

00:13:28   like everyone might just decide you know [TS]

00:13:30   what I'm fine with just not having [TS]

00:13:32   synced up audio when playing games while [TS]

00:13:35   wearing headphones like people might [TS]

00:13:36   just decide that because it's worth it [TS]

00:13:38   to have all the other benefits of [TS]

00:13:38   wireless headphones so I would [TS]

00:13:40   necessarily consider this problem [TS]

00:13:41   something that will be solved and and [TS]

00:13:44   we'll be starting soon you know don't [TS]

00:13:47   worry because apples hard real-time [TS]

00:13:48   operating systems are working on for the [TS]

00:13:49   car will solve all these problems [TS]

00:13:50   because then you won't have any [TS]

00:13:51   underflow problems on your buffers [TS]

00:13:52   because you've got time slice guarantees [TS]

00:13:54   and on the that'll solve all these [TS]

00:13:56   problems [TS]

00:13:57   I mean people always talk about I i I'm [TS]

00:13:58   saying this is a joke by the way but [TS]

00:14:00   people do talk a lot about the [TS]

00:14:01   theoretical you know the the real time [TS]

00:14:05   requirements of any sort of software [TS]

00:14:07   that Apple might be doing in the car and [TS]

00:14:09   I redheads have a hard time believing [TS]

00:14:11   that any software part of the car system [TS]

00:14:16   like it in other words i imagine that [TS]

00:14:19   Apple's going to do the part of the car [TS]

00:14:20   that you would you know but the software [TS]

00:14:22   that you see on the screen in the car [TS]

00:14:24   that you interact with but I always [TS]

00:14:25   imagined that the internal things that [TS]

00:14:27   deal with like engine control computers [TS]

00:14:29   will have absolutely no lineage or [TS]

00:14:32   connection to any existing Apple [TS]

00:14:33   software code base like that it'll just [TS]

00:14:35   be an embedded system that it won't be [TS]

00:14:38   related to iOS that none of that stuff [TS]

00:14:40   will come to iOS and other stuff from [TS]

00:14:41   iOS go to it there will be an iOS like [TS]

00:14:43   thing for front-end doesn't mean they [TS]

00:14:45   ever make are you know the thing that [TS]

00:14:46   runs all the dashboard and a lot of [TS]

00:14:48   stuff but the part that runs the engine [TS]

00:14:49   computer and any other stuff I can't [TS]

00:14:51   imagine that having any connection with [TS]

00:14:54   the existing basically with Darwin with [TS]

00:14:57   existing a code basement one and we've [TS]

00:14:59   we've heard very early and very you know [TS]

00:15:02   unreliable but still rumblings that [TS]

00:15:05   indicated that's exactly what they're [TS]

00:15:06   doing that that they are working on a [TS]

00:15:08   new kernel and a new OS at that might [TS]

00:15:12   possibly use swift for everything [TS]

00:15:14   because it's you know that's kind of one [TS]

00:15:16   of the reasons why Swift is so safe and [TS]

00:15:17   everything like that but that could [TS]

00:15:19   still be for the dashboard control like [TS]

00:15:20   I'm saying for you know for the other [TS]

00:15:22   preferred the things that have to be [TS]

00:15:23   real time oh yeah it because they don't [TS]

00:15:25   you know the the Darwin colonel is not a [TS]

00:15:27   real [TS]

00:15:27   Colonel where you can guarantee i mean [TS]

00:15:29   they know they have the stuff for trying [TS]

00:15:31   to guarantee time slices for audio and [TS]

00:15:33   video or whatever but it's not like hard [TS]

00:15:34   real-time like things you put on like [TS]

00:15:36   spacecraft to go to Mars where this [TS]

00:15:39   absolutely positively has to happen it's [TS]

00:15:41   just it's very tightly constrained you [TS]

00:15:42   know embedded operating system [TS]

00:15:43   environment was that one really popular [TS]

00:15:45   one when river systems or something I [TS]

00:15:48   don't know the ones on all the [TS]

00:15:48   spacecraft and satellites and other [TS]

00:15:50   stuff like that that is a different [TS]

00:15:51   problem domain and I see no reason that [TS]

00:15:53   apple would need to make a single OS [TS]

00:15:55   that spans because you never see the [TS]

00:15:56   real-time operating system it just runs [TS]

00:15:58   the machinery under the covers and [TS]

00:15:59   apples free to make a swift from top to [TS]

00:16:02   bottom cool UI thing for all the you [TS]

00:16:05   know climate-controlled dashboard [TS]

00:16:07   applications audio system all that other [TS]

00:16:08   stuff which could still also be entirely [TS]

00:16:10   new code base but I still feel like it [TS]

00:16:14   that doesn't even need to be real time [TS]

00:16:15   because it just controls the sort of an [TS]

00:16:17   essential functions if its self-driving [TS]

00:16:18   then I don't really know what the hell's [TS]

00:16:20   going on our first sponsor this week is [TS]

00:16:24   backblaze go to backblaze dot-com / ATP [TS]

00:16:27   for the best online backup I've ever [TS]

00:16:29   seen [TS]

00:16:30   I've been back with a back plz customer [TS]

00:16:32   for I don't know three four years now [TS]

00:16:34   it's been awhile since this was before [TS]

00:16:36   the sponsored our shows and because I [TS]

00:16:38   just I did the research i tried a few [TS]

00:16:40   online backup services out there and [TS]

00:16:43   back plays with my favorite by far [TS]

00:16:44   simple as that so they have over a [TS]

00:16:47   hundred and fifty petabytes of data [TS]

00:16:49   backed up this isn't all for me although [TS]

00:16:51   a lot of it is but not all hundred [TS]

00:16:53   petabytes of our mind they had you know [TS]

00:16:55   anybody can do this they have over 10 [TS]

00:16:58   billion files that have been restored to [TS]

00:17:00   their customers so like they've backed [TS]

00:17:02   up way more than 10 million files [TS]

00:17:03   they've restored 10 million files for [TS]

00:17:05   their customers all this data that they [TS]

00:17:07   keep up in their cloud is not in your [TS]

00:17:10   office not in your home so that any kind [TS]

00:17:13   of environmental problem that affects [TS]

00:17:14   all the computers in your office or all [TS]

00:17:16   the computers in your home things like [TS]

00:17:18   you know electrical problems fires [TS]

00:17:20   floods theft if you are back plays [TS]

00:17:23   customer you know that your data is [TS]

00:17:25   still there is back place still has your [TS]

00:17:27   data and you can get it back it's it's a [TS]

00:17:29   level of peace of mind [TS]

00:17:31   backblaze saves your butt in that case [TS]

00:17:33   it really does it is great it is founded [TS]

00:17:34   by X Apple engineers they respect the [TS]

00:17:36   mac plus they work on windows to as far [TS]

00:17:38   as i know i don't ride but I'm sure yet [TS]

00:17:40   says different [TS]

00:17:41   on your mac and pc so they have a [TS]

00:17:43   windows up to it if you run that way you [TS]

00:17:45   can put on your c drive but now you're a [TS]

00:17:47   or b drives you don't have those anymore [TS]

00:17:48   a bad place is really easy no add-ons no [TS]

00:17:51   gimmicks no additional charges five [TS]

00:17:53   bucks per month for unlimited space on [TS]

00:17:57   throttled speeds everything you need [TS]

00:17:59   no add-ons no gimmicks five bucks a [TS]

00:18:01   month per computer at backblaze [TS]

00:18:03   backblaze calm / ATP you need online [TS]

00:18:06   backup and if you're going to get online [TS]

00:18:08   backup this is the one I recommend [TS]

00:18:09   thanks a lot of bad place for sponsoring [TS]

00:18:10   our show so back places better the news [TS]

00:18:13   lately and not just because they sponsor [TS]

00:18:15   this awesome program but because they [TS]

00:18:18   had a running with Adobe yes this is we [TS]

00:18:21   all have we all had a run-in with Adobe [TS]

00:18:23   sometimes that happens [TS]

00:18:25   whoops so I do not have creative cloud [TS]

00:18:28   so just one of you want to fill fill me [TS]

00:18:30   and fill everyone in on what happened i [TS]

00:18:33   just didn't happen to me either [TS]

00:18:34   thankfully but i do have well here's the [TS]

00:18:37   thing i have Photoshop cs6 which is the [TS]

00:18:39   the last pre creative crowd cloud [TS]

00:18:42   version but for reasons all I know why [TS]

00:18:45   I'm saying why does this always systems [TS]

00:18:47   anyway even though i have cs6 i still [TS]

00:18:49   have the creative cloud icon in the menu [TS]

00:18:51   bar because i think i downloaded like a [TS]

00:18:53   trial illustrator I might have paid for [TS]

00:18:54   illustrator for a month like illustrator [TS]

00:18:56   CC like the first version anyway once [TS]

00:18:59   again because on your system has this [TS]

00:19:00   creative cloud menu thing which like [TS]

00:19:02   tries to update your applications for [TS]

00:19:03   you and do other crap like that it's the [TS]

00:19:05   worst [TS]

00:19:06   yeah and I'm it launches on login and [TS]

00:19:08   you try to get rid of it and comes back [TS]

00:19:10   he just wanna quit like Steam yeah but [TS]

00:19:12   steam does it through the system through [TS]

00:19:14   the system login items and you turn off [TS]

00:19:16   it stays off Creative Cloud just keeps [TS]

00:19:17   coming back like an undead zombie anyway [TS]

00:19:19   adobe has a history of having let's say [TS]

00:19:24   challenges related to software [TS]

00:19:26   installation and management of [TS]

00:19:29   installations on the mac there I i have [TS]

00:19:31   at various times search for solutions to [TS]

00:19:33   seemingly intractable adobe application [TS]

00:19:35   installation problems infants and [TS]

00:19:36   instructions on adobe's own website not [TS]

00:19:38   in the forums like literal officially [TS]

00:19:40   official adobe instructions that contain [TS]

00:19:42   terrifying like sets of steps that you [TS]

00:19:45   have to follow to get yourself out of a [TS]

00:19:47   situation in which you're legitimately [TS]

00:19:49   purchase adobe application won't update [TS]

00:19:50   or something they have [TS]

00:19:51   running commands from the shell prompt [TS]

00:19:54   you know sudo RM blah blah it's like it [TS]

00:19:57   seriously this is anyway they have [TS]

00:19:59   serious challenges and this is another [TS]

00:20:02   one of their challenges [TS]

00:20:03   apparently they release some software [TS]

00:20:04   and this is all kind of experimental [TS]

00:20:05   determined by back place and you'll [TS]

00:20:07   understand my bike place is involved at [TS]

00:20:08   all this in a moment [TS]

00:20:10   it's some piece of software that would [TS]

00:20:13   effectively list the folders the [TS]

00:20:16   directories at the top level of your [TS]

00:20:18   volume and sort them i'm assuming a [TS]

00:20:21   schematically as in like capital letters [TS]

00:20:23   first or whatever but any rate periods [TS]

00:20:25   and spaces and stuff first pick the [TS]

00:20:27   first one and delete its contents and it [TS]

00:20:30   was hoping that first one would be like [TS]

00:20:32   a dot adobe something but depending on [TS]

00:20:36   whether you had a previous installation [TS]

00:20:37   it could be something other than dot [TS]

00:20:39   adobe or space adobe over the hall was [TS]

00:20:41   it could in fact be something called dot [TS]

00:20:44   bz ball which is a back plays hidden [TS]

00:20:46   directory where it stores a bunch of [TS]

00:20:47   crap that has to do with the operation [TS]

00:20:49   of back place so people were messing [TS]

00:20:51   with this adobe creative cloud update [TS]

00:20:53   which i'm sure they were all prompted to [TS]

00:20:54   install by the little menu item that [TS]

00:20:56   always runs the people systems and they [TS]

00:20:57   would install it and that installer [TS]

00:20:59   would delete the contents of back blazes [TS]

00:21:01   little directory where it stores [TS]

00:21:03   information about your backups and [TS]

00:21:05   that's pretty antisocial behavior when [TS]

00:21:08   an application not made by you goes and [TS]

00:21:12   deletes all your crap out from under it [TS]

00:21:13   now to black places credit they figured [TS]

00:21:17   out this problem pretty quickly they [TS]

00:21:18   posted a thing on the side that explains [TS]

00:21:19   how to solve the situation they reported [TS]

00:21:21   to adobe and then to adobe's credit will [TS]

00:21:23   be fixed it and pull the updated all the [TS]

00:21:25   stuff and we'll link to a blog post in [TS]

00:21:28   the show notes from backways explaining [TS]

00:21:29   the situation and again we don't have [TS]

00:21:32   the these particular details back please [TS]

00:21:34   just has like experimental experimental [TS]

00:21:36   a determined this that and the other [TS]

00:21:37   thing what people are doing in the [TS]

00:21:39   meantime before these updates was they [TS]

00:21:40   would make a bunch of a series of [TS]

00:21:41   sacrificial folders at the top level of [TS]

00:21:43   their directory like called AAA to make [TS]

00:21:46   the dough hook the adobe thing nuke that [TS]

00:21:47   one and not the bz vol.1 but as back [TS]

00:21:50   place points out even if you have this [TS]

00:21:52   thing happened to you at no time where [TS]

00:21:55   your actual backplate about backups in [TS]

00:21:57   jeopardy because the backups are all [TS]

00:21:59   server-side back plays this was merely [TS]

00:22:00   setting back the client-side [TS]

00:22:02   installation [TS]

00:22:03   view our backup thing by deleting all [TS]

00:22:05   the information needs to keep track of [TS]

00:22:07   stuff so that players will automatically [TS]

00:22:08   created and I'm assuming you have to [TS]

00:22:10   grind your desk for a while to figure [TS]

00:22:11   out what the hell's would recreate that [TS]

00:22:12   directory but it's good to know that [TS]

00:22:15   despite another application coming and [TS]

00:22:17   recursively delete the contents of one [TS]

00:22:19   of its directories your actual backups [TS]

00:22:21   mean like the data that is starting back [TS]

00:22:22   place the server where are we safe [TS]

00:22:24   during this time we give Apple hard time [TS]

00:22:27   for for software quality issues that we [TS]

00:22:29   think they have but we a couple of [TS]

00:22:31   people right in to say why don't you [TS]

00:22:33   complain about Adobe just as much and [TS]

00:22:36   and the truth is adobe software is [TS]

00:22:38   typically far worse than apple software [TS]

00:22:40   especially the non-core thing so you [TS]

00:22:43   think about like photoshop illustrator [TS]

00:22:44   these like the core adobe act like their [TS]

00:22:47   core apps as as much as they can be [TS]

00:22:50   weird and flaky as much as people can [TS]

00:22:51   love and hate them so much at the same [TS]

00:22:53   time they don't usually have stability [TS]

00:22:56   issues or data loss issues they have [TS]

00:22:59   many other issues but those are not [TS]

00:23:00   usually among them so it's not like you [TS]

00:23:03   like that the main core apps tend to [TS]

00:23:05   work decently well most of the time [TS]

00:23:06   although I can anyone Apple but that the [TS]

00:23:10   problem adobe has is all the other like [TS]

00:23:12   supporting crap around them also [TS]

00:23:14   anything related to acrobat but you know [TS]

00:23:16   all that all supporting crap around them [TS]

00:23:18   at the installers the the cloud services [TS]

00:23:21   that they use like the behance plugins [TS]

00:23:23   and all this all this crazy stuff those [TS]

00:23:25   things tend to work very poorly and be [TS]

00:23:28   very inconsistent and the reason why we [TS]

00:23:31   don't usually criticized adobe on this [TS]

00:23:32   show is simply because adobe has been [TS]

00:23:34   making mediocre software for so long [TS]

00:23:36   that we have no expectations of quality [TS]

00:23:38   from Adobe as sad as that is and then I [TS]

00:23:41   say this as a longtime adobe customer [TS]

00:23:43   and user of multiple products by them [TS]

00:23:45   but the fact is that adobe just has a [TS]

00:23:48   really really bad reputation for this [TS]

00:23:50   stuff and has four years so yeah we just [TS]

00:23:52   don't expect much from them and and when [TS]

00:23:53   things like this happen [TS]

00:23:55   it's it's barely even worth mentioning [TS]

00:23:56   because like it just it happened like [TS]

00:23:59   crap with Adobe happens all the time [TS]

00:24:00   usually not this bad but like it's just [TS]

00:24:02   you know it's just one more day using [TS]

00:24:04   adobe stuff for the software doing weird [TS]

00:24:06   stuff and not quite installing right or [TS]

00:24:08   creative cloud is doing weird things in [TS]

00:24:10   the menu bar that's just typical [TS]

00:24:11   behavior and as big as adobe is [TS]

00:24:14   obviously like most people use adobe [TS]

00:24:15   software like especially now [TS]

00:24:17   you know os10 PDF rendering built-in [TS]

00:24:19   everything people have no longer have a [TS]

00:24:21   reason download acrobat just look at [TS]

00:24:23   pdfs if you're not a designer or not [TS]

00:24:26   using one of you know you don't use it [TS]

00:24:28   adobe product so much where is everybody [TS]

00:24:29   is using you know the operating system [TS]

00:24:31   and a lot of the built-in apps that ship [TS]

00:24:33   with Apple think it was just a much [TS]

00:24:34   bigger surface area for people to [TS]

00:24:37   encounter problems with the with apple [TS]

00:24:39   stuff that the reason I want to talk [TS]

00:24:41   about this aside from the backways angle [TS]

00:24:43   and it's just coincidence we have that [TS]

00:24:44   back place a sponsoring this episode is [TS]

00:24:47   the sandboxing angle because a lot of [TS]

00:24:50   discussion i saw about this issue was [TS]

00:24:52   see this is why Apple wants mac [TS]

00:24:55   applications to be sandbox and sent [TS]

00:24:58   quicksand boxing refresher sandboxing is [TS]

00:25:00   basically a way to limit the ability of [TS]

00:25:04   applications to do things so typical [TS]

00:25:07   general-purpose PC or Mac when you're [TS]

00:25:09   running an application that application [TS]

00:25:11   can do anything that you could do as as [TS]

00:25:14   a user as and you could delete all the [TS]

00:25:16   files in your home directory and so can [TS]

00:25:18   any program that you run you could you [TS]

00:25:20   know rename things remove things like [TS]

00:25:23   just you know sit transmit data over the [TS]

00:25:26   network pull data down from somewhere [TS]

00:25:28   anything basically you could do as a [TS]

00:25:31   user or a program that you wrote any [TS]

00:25:32   program that you run can do and what [TS]

00:25:34   sandboxing does is says that each [TS]

00:25:37   individual application has to declare [TS]

00:25:38   what kinds of things it wants to do so [TS]

00:25:42   application might say I need to access [TS]

00:25:44   the network or maybe I need to access [TS]

00:25:46   now we can just go to certain sites i [TS]

00:25:48   need accurate access the camera or the [TS]

00:25:49   microphone i need access to the file [TS]

00:25:52   system i need access to just these two [TS]

00:25:54   folders in the file system and you know [TS]

00:25:56   like that and you can have these sort of [TS]

00:25:59   permissions all up to level of like hey [TS]

00:26:01   I need access to the complete file [TS]

00:26:02   system and historically apple has been [TS]

00:26:04   trying to slowly close that door to say [TS]

00:26:06   you know what [TS]

00:26:07   no application should really have access [TS]

00:26:09   to the entire file system and if you do [TS]

00:26:11   there should be a good reason and that's [TS]

00:26:13   the whole negotiation with the mac app [TS]

00:26:15   store in San boxing mac applications to [TS]

00:26:17   try to this negotiation backwards be an [TS]

00:26:19   apple and the applications of what they [TS]

00:26:21   call them titles what entitlements is [TS]

00:26:23   your application actually need to do its [TS]

00:26:25   job versus which ones you just want to [TS]

00:26:26   have so why is your application they use [TS]

00:26:29   for email acts [TS]

00:26:30   using the camera I and maybe have a good [TS]

00:26:32   reason at all if you don't have an [TS]

00:26:34   avatar [TS]

00:26:34   we will take a picture of you and then [TS]

00:26:37   use that as your after okay well that's [TS]

00:26:39   okay reason why is your email [TS]

00:26:40   application to access the entire file [TS]

00:26:42   system well we don't really know where [TS]

00:26:44   we're going to add file so we just want [TS]

00:26:45   access to the whole file system and now [TS]

00:26:47   sorry we really want you to pick where [TS]

00:26:48   you're gonna put the files you can put a [TS]

00:26:49   dialog box up and the user can pick when [TS]

00:26:51   you get permission for that directory of [TS]

00:26:52   that directory tree but you don't have [TS]

00:26:54   access everywhere and as we just [TS]

00:26:57   discussed with adobe stuff as you might [TS]

00:26:58   imagine [TS]

00:26:59   adobe is not in the mac app store adobe [TS]

00:27:01   sells its own software has its own [TS]

00:27:03   subscription service to create a cloud [TS]

00:27:04   thing where you can sort of rent your [TS]

00:27:06   software and that will give you updates [TS]

00:27:08   for a certain amount of time and they're [TS]

00:27:10   not a nightcap story not just because [TS]

00:27:11   they don't want to share three percent [TS]

00:27:13   of the money battle but also because no [TS]

00:27:14   other applications would function is [TS]

00:27:16   sandboxed and so that that's why [TS]

00:27:20   sandboxing is related to this because it [TS]

00:27:21   if their application with sandbox surely [TS]

00:27:23   there updater wouldn't have the [TS]

00:27:26   entitlement that allows it gives it [TS]

00:27:27   access to the entire file system that [TS]

00:27:29   the updater would instead like maybe [TS]

00:27:30   prompt you to find your application or [TS]

00:27:31   something and then the user would give [TS]

00:27:32   information update [TS]

00:27:34   alrighty offers a Mac App Store updates [TS]

00:27:35   work entirely different anyway because [TS]

00:27:37   it would just be able to update the [TS]

00:27:38   individual apps and their bundles but [TS]

00:27:41   the real issue is alright so sandboxing [TS]

00:27:43   would have saved this but it's not [TS]

00:27:44   sandboxed so what is sandboxing actually [TS]

00:27:47   buying us because if I if you can have [TS]

00:27:50   non sandbox non Mac App Store [TS]

00:27:52   applications does not defeat the purpose [TS]

00:27:55   of sandboxing in other words you can't [TS]

00:27:56   get everybody to be sandbox it doesn't [TS]

00:27:58   matter how great sandboxing us but it [TS]

00:27:59   just takes one sandbox application to [TS]

00:28:01   ruin your day [TS]

00:28:02   so what do you guys think about the [TS]

00:28:03   sandboxing yay or nay angle on this [TS]

00:28:07   whole disaster [TS]

00:28:08   I think it's a reasonable angle but part [TS]

00:28:12   of the reason that the mac is so great [TS]

00:28:14   and part of the reason I've been talking [TS]

00:28:16   the last couple of episodes about things [TS]

00:28:19   that bother me about iOS is that you can [TS]

00:28:21   take things into your own hands in a way [TS]

00:28:23   that you can't with iOS and that's very [TS]

00:28:26   freeing and so I wouldn't I would be [TS]

00:28:30   very upset if all software had to go [TS]

00:28:33   through the mac app store or somehow it [TS]

00:28:36   in another way [TS]

00:28:37   all software with sandbox [TS]

00:28:39   I don't see that as feasible I do think [TS]

00:28:42   though that software developers should [TS]

00:28:45   be better systems of the ecosystem and [TS]

00:28:49   in 20 allow their software to be [TS]

00:28:52   sandboxed wherever possible now I'm not [TS]

00:28:55   clear can use sand box without being in [TS]

00:28:58   the app store so i could Creative Cloud [TS]

00:28:59   still be a third-party third and a third [TS]

00:29:02   party am an outside of the appstore [TS]

00:29:04   thing and also be sandbox get definitely [TS]

00:29:07   you can do that okay and some people do [TS]

00:29:08   that was one of the discussions like wha [TS]

00:29:10   why would anyone voluntarily subject [TS]

00:29:13   their application to the sandbox if [TS]

00:29:14   you're not on the mac app store said [TS]

00:29:15   you're selling an application directly [TS]

00:29:17   why would you go through the trouble of [TS]

00:29:18   sandboxing and part of the reason i was [TS]

00:29:20   to protect yourself from your own bug [TS]

00:29:23   say you have some sort of silly bug or [TS]

00:29:25   not so silly bugger Isis this is an [TS]

00:29:27   itunes spot way back in the day this is [TS]

00:29:29   a very common bug for for the mindset of [TS]

00:29:32   the people that tend to write things [TS]

00:29:34   like installers and uninstallers this [TS]

00:29:36   mindset is the assumption that no Mac [TS]

00:29:38   user know really old-school mac user [TS]

00:29:40   ever make but that basically everyone [TS]

00:29:42   else in the entire computing universe [TS]

00:29:43   except old-school mac user makes an [TS]

00:29:45   assumption is for example file names do [TS]

00:29:48   not contain spaces because who would put [TS]

00:29:50   a space in their file name that's [TS]

00:29:51   madness you can have spaces in filenames [TS]

00:29:52   that the itunes bug was if you had a [TS]

00:29:56   space in your file name there was like a [TS]

00:29:57   shell script that was just blindly [TS]

00:29:59   taking a string building a path that [TS]

00:30:01   string and then running a command on it [TS]

00:30:03   without quoting the string because hey [TS]

00:30:04   what if there's a quote in the string [TS]

00:30:05   who would put a quote in their file [TS]

00:30:07   names mac users would that's right [TS]

00:30:09   okay well these are you single quotes [TS]

00:30:11   who would put a single quote in their [TS]

00:30:12   file names mac users that suit you know [TS]

00:30:14   Mac users were trained for a [TS]

00:30:16   decade-and-a-half that the file name is [TS]

00:30:19   the users domain you can type whatever [TS]

00:30:20   the hell you want their will accept what [TS]

00:30:22   is it a colon or comics was the one you [TS]

00:30:24   can use you can get a colon into you can [TS]

00:30:26   get something that that it appears as a [TS]

00:30:27   colon okay yeah yeah it's colon slash [TS]

00:30:30   there there are limitations so basically [TS]

00:30:32   if i can type it like it you are [TS]

00:30:34   prevented from typing those things [TS]

00:30:35   essentially or you prevented from really [TS]

00:30:37   getting those into the file name but the [TS]

00:30:38   bottom line is you would never think [TS]

00:30:39   that because i put a space in my file [TS]

00:30:41   name this would mean like the items when [TS]

00:30:43   I think what if you had a volume called [TS]

00:30:44   fubar and you had I know you had a [TS]

00:30:47   volume called foo and then you had a pop [TS]

00:30:50   Pat volume called fubar the thing would [TS]

00:30:52   try to delete fubar [TS]

00:30:54   but after the first space the you know [TS]

00:30:55   the RM command would say oh you want me [TS]

00:30:57   to delete volumes food ok I'll go that [TS]

00:30:59   i'll do the loot that ok you also want [TS]

00:31:01   me to leave borrow no no such file and [TS]

00:31:03   you were sad because it just nuclear [TS]

00:31:05   entire directory anyway I'm dealing with [TS]

00:31:07   pads as strings and dealing with path [TS]

00:31:10   strings in a sloppy way is an epidemic [TS]

00:31:12   in the computing world so that it's very [TS]

00:31:17   it's actually very difficult to get that [TS]

00:31:18   part of the the system right and so [TS]

00:31:20   you'd sandbox yourself to say what if I [TS]

00:31:23   make one of those mistakes what if I'm [TS]

00:31:24   deep in objective-c code and I'm you [TS]

00:31:26   know building you know at any time [TS]

00:31:29   you're shelling out or doing something [TS]

00:31:30   that you think I've built a string and [TS]

00:31:32   this is some NS string that has a file [TS]

00:31:34   path and I'm and then instead of feeding [TS]

00:31:35   it to an objective-c framework that [TS]

00:31:37   would presumably do the right thing [TS]

00:31:39   instead you say i'm just going to run [TS]

00:31:41   this external command even if it's like [TS]

00:31:42   I'm just gonna run as external command [TS]

00:31:43   converts mark down into HTML and I'll [TS]

00:31:45   just feed this path and everything will [TS]

00:31:46   be fine i guess you're probably not [TS]

00:31:48   going to nuclear world will probably [TS]

00:31:49   just break when someone puts the space [TS]

00:31:50   or you know an exclamation point or a [TS]

00:31:54   single quotes or double quotes depending [TS]

00:31:55   on how silly you're being about going to [TS]

00:31:57   the shelter to these type of things but [TS]

00:31:59   i can tell you someone who writes in the [TS]

00:32:01   language is actually very close to shell [TS]

00:32:03   script thing even in languages like that [TS]

00:32:06   where you know this is not the whole [TS]

00:32:09   purpose of languages that make it easy [TS]

00:32:10   to run shell commands right to run [TS]

00:32:12   things that you would type of the [TS]

00:32:13   terminal don't those languages have [TS]

00:32:14   facilities for doing all this even in [TS]

00:32:16   those languages people just ignore the [TS]

00:32:18   facilities that allow you to essentially [TS]

00:32:19   pass a list so it'll be due pass [TS]

00:32:21   directly to the exact CVP function or [TS]

00:32:23   whatever where you bypass the shell [TS]

00:32:25   entirely you know what the components of [TS]

00:32:28   the command are you know this is the [TS]

00:32:29   command you know this is the path you [TS]

00:32:30   know this is the whatever never go [TS]

00:32:32   through the shell and let it try to [TS]

00:32:33   figure out where the boundaries are [TS]

00:32:34   because you will just little you be sad [TS]

00:32:36   and it will end in tears [TS]

00:32:37   so if you can sandbox your application [TS]

00:32:39   say i'm only gonna ever edit my [TS]

00:32:41   application will only ever modify files [TS]

00:32:43   in these two directories +1 that the [TS]

00:32:44   user picks themselves with the open side [TS]

00:32:46   of dialog box then when you have this [TS]

00:32:48   bug your application what function [TS]

00:32:50   directly but you will not accidentally [TS]

00:32:51   recursively delete their home directory [TS]

00:32:53   their volume their entire documents [TS]

00:32:55   folder or whatever else so yeah Marco [TS]

00:32:57   would sandboxes on application and i [TS]

00:32:59   think i would too even though probably [TS]

00:33:01   be a giant pain because I think there's [TS]

00:33:03   a lot of [TS]

00:33:03   don't that just don't exist anymore [TS]

00:33:05   because they think nobody in the mac app [TS]

00:33:06   store should have therefore people on [TS]

00:33:07   the outside shouldn't either [TS]

00:33:09   I mean that's the main problem with [TS]

00:33:10   sandboxing is is really not the concept [TS]

00:33:12   it there's two main problems is on the [TS]

00:33:15   mac number one is it wasn't always there [TS]

00:33:16   so we have this entire ecosystem of [TS]

00:33:19   softens and built up over decades that [TS]

00:33:22   it was originally built without the [TS]

00:33:24   concept of sandboxing and then now it [TS]

00:33:26   has to be bolted on and for a lot of [TS]

00:33:27   apps that is either impossible or very [TS]

00:33:29   difficult and then secondly that the [TS]

00:33:32   other problem is that Apple just hasn't [TS]

00:33:34   really been a very good steward of [TS]

00:33:35   taking sandboxing and moving it forward [TS]

00:33:37   and adding entitlements for things that [TS]

00:33:40   really are necessary in the real world [TS]

00:33:41   and as a result the the kind of policy [TS]

00:33:46   by action at least have been doing so [TS]

00:33:47   far is well if you don't want to fit [TS]

00:33:49   into what we want for the mac app store [TS]

00:33:51   we don't want you there at all like we [TS]

00:33:53   don't even want you to use any of this [TS]

00:33:54   technology and and I'm sure that's not [TS]

00:33:57   what like Craig federighi wants to be [TS]

00:33:58   the case but that's what's happening so [TS]

00:34:00   far so hopefully they remember that the [TS]

00:34:02   mac exists just long enough to update [TS]

00:34:04   sandboxing and and give it to make it [TS]

00:34:07   more useful because I as both the [TS]

00:34:08   developer and a user i'm a developer at [TS]

00:34:11   least not yet but but I as a user I [TS]

00:34:13   would love for more of my apps to be [TS]

00:34:15   sandboxed if Apple wants to advance this [TS]

00:34:17   this the system and this practice of [TS]

00:34:20   being of sandbox after I think they [TS]

00:34:21   should they to make more apps able to be [TS]

00:34:24   sandbox in a reasonable way and so I I [TS]

00:34:27   hope there's enough people at Apple who [TS]

00:34:29   agree with that that gets done at some [TS]

00:34:30   point but you as a developer as you know [TS]

00:34:33   not only for protecting you know all of [TS]

00:34:35   your data from my accidental bugs and [TS]

00:34:38   stuff to go into it i would if i if i [TS]

00:34:40   was making it looks sort of making mac [TS]

00:34:42   version overcast [TS]

00:34:43   I'm not but suppose I was please don't [TS]

00:34:45   get excited about insurance rkc i know i [TS]

00:34:47   should I i have a guy i had like forever [TS]

00:34:50   ago I'd like a branch that I could [TS]

00:34:51   compile like the data layer to Mac but [TS]

00:34:53   not the not a UI or anything that's [TS]

00:34:56   that's the kind of app doesn't really [TS]

00:34:58   need deep system access to really [TS]

00:35:00   anything i mean i would need access to [TS]

00:35:02   play audio and that's a and download [TS]

00:35:05   stuff from the network like that's [TS]

00:35:07   that's about it like so i would totally [TS]

00:35:09   accept sandboxing I wouldn't want the [TS]

00:35:11   responsibility of messing with your [TS]

00:35:13   system or messing with other apps [TS]

00:35:15   accidentally or having my at the [TS]

00:35:17   well to be hacked and have some kind of [TS]

00:35:19   remote injection if you a webpage you [TS]

00:35:20   know weird stuff like that like I know [TS]

00:35:22   we're beyond most of that was like web [TS]

00:35:24   stuff these days but still you know it [TS]

00:35:26   would be nice to just like eliminate [TS]

00:35:28   sources of budget you to me it's like as [TS]

00:35:30   a developer would i opted into memory [TS]

00:35:33   protection of course i would like it's [TS]

00:35:35   one of those things where if what you're [TS]

00:35:37   doing can fit within those restrictions [TS]

00:35:39   you should adopt them just because it [TS]

00:35:41   will help it will help you not only make [TS]

00:35:43   better software but ensure more secure [TS]

00:35:45   software as as time goes on as people to [TS]

00:35:48   try to hack it or as you make mistakes [TS]

00:35:49   so of course I would opt into that and [TS]

00:35:52   iOS i'm very glad it's there because [TS]

00:35:53   there's no these whole classes of things [TS]

00:35:56   where like if I gotta support thing that [TS]

00:35:58   says oh whenever i launched overcast [TS]

00:36:01   facebook crashes that's not my problem i [TS]

00:36:04   can't do anything about that you know [TS]

00:36:05   and in a way that's kind of frustrating [TS]

00:36:07   community have to tell people sorry i [TS]

00:36:09   can't really help but also i can say [TS]

00:36:11   well I sorry it's out of my control and [TS]

00:36:14   it's probably everything I'm doing you [TS]

00:36:15   know so there are lots of advantages to [TS]

00:36:18   sandboxing for developers and users as [TS]

00:36:20   long as the system either indicates of [TS]

00:36:22   iOS that's always been there or in the [TS]

00:36:24   case of the mac hopefully it gets better [TS]

00:36:26   enough that people more more apps can [TS]

00:36:29   adopt it so that leaves me the question [TS]

00:36:31   like the this whole sandboxing an Adobe [TS]

00:36:34   bug thing of like apples responsibility [TS]

00:36:37   as a platform or not responsibility [TS]

00:36:38   apples apples goals as the platform [TS]

00:36:40   owner is too i think it should be to try [TS]

00:36:44   to get as many people into the sandbox [TS]

00:36:47   on the mac as possible and they've been [TS]

00:36:49   trying to do that like they did the [TS]

00:36:50   important first step was they themselves [TS]

00:36:52   sandbox a ton of the background demons [TS]

00:36:54   that were on your mac so they like the [TS]

00:36:56   thing that does like name lookups and [TS]

00:36:57   stuff can't doesn't have complete access [TS]

00:36:59   to the file system just to make them [TS]

00:37:01   less of a vector for exploitation in [TS]

00:37:04   terms of malware can do a buffer [TS]

00:37:05   overflow and like the name lookup system [TS]

00:37:08   it does it can't write an arbitrary file [TS]

00:37:10   to anywhere in the file system because [TS]

00:37:11   that thing is still a sandbox a sandbox [TS]

00:37:13   a lot of their own things sandbox a lot [TS]

00:37:15   of the OS they tried to send back some [TS]

00:37:16   of their applications and of course they [TS]

00:37:18   eventually restricted the mac app store [TS]

00:37:20   to it which heard a lot of applications [TS]

00:37:22   but at this point that the the other [TS]

00:37:25   area of trying to get more things in [TS]

00:37:27   sandboxes saying are you an important [TS]

00:37:30   pop [TS]

00:37:30   other application that a lot of people [TS]

00:37:31   use and you're not using a sandbox and [TS]

00:37:34   they're like that should be the focus of [TS]

00:37:36   all their efforts out why are you not [TS]

00:37:37   using the sandbox what can we do to help [TS]

00:37:39   you get in the sandbox yes even for [TS]

00:37:41   companies like Adobe that will probably [TS]

00:37:42   never be in the mac app store for [TS]

00:37:43   financial reasons in terms of profit [TS]

00:37:45   sharing with Apple they should still be [TS]

00:37:47   saying adobe we understand you're never [TS]

00:37:49   gonna have a 30-percent we understand [TS]

00:37:50   you have your own subscription service [TS]

00:37:52   your own weird thing going on there [TS]

00:37:53   that's fine but we would still like all [TS]

00:37:56   of your applications including your [TS]

00:37:58   installers and everything to be in the [TS]

00:38:00   sandbox [TS]

00:38:01   what do we have to do to get you into [TS]

00:38:02   the sandbox today like car dealership [TS]

00:38:05   that you know they need to be out there [TS]

00:38:07   trying to get butts in the seats just [TS]

00:38:11   mixing my analogies now on the sandbox [TS]

00:38:13   and if that means making variants of the [TS]

00:38:16   sandbox that are entirely different than [TS]

00:38:19   whatever be a lot of the mac app store [TS]

00:38:20   that would still be a benefit to both [TS]

00:38:22   Apple and users right so that you know [TS]

00:38:24   trying to be ideologically pure and say [TS]

00:38:26   if you can't fit within the sandbox as [TS]

00:38:28   we define it just fine it like ideally [TS]

00:38:31   for these isolated applications like [TS]

00:38:33   they are in iOS that tough luck you [TS]

00:38:34   can't use it at all [TS]

00:38:35   you know or if we say you know don't we [TS]

00:38:37   could be maybe apples telling you know [TS]

00:38:38   but you could be the sandbox now but [TS]

00:38:40   you're not nobody's like yeah we see [TS]

00:38:42   kind of what the upside might be for you [TS]

00:38:44   apple and for users but it just seems [TS]

00:38:46   like a lot of work and even there's no [TS]

00:38:47   real technical limitations we could do [TS]

00:38:49   it today we don't want to and that's [TS]

00:38:51   kind of you know Apple what Apple's job [TS]

00:38:53   is to try to convince adobe to [TS]

00:38:55   essentially spend money time and effort [TS]

00:38:58   to get into the sandbox and so if I was [TS]

00:39:01   apple i would say i would have had these [TS]

00:39:04   efforts ongoing and be when this bug it [TS]

00:39:05   would be like trying to nicely say to [TS]

00:39:08   Adobe you know depending on the current [TS]

00:39:10   situation is I don't know it could be [TS]

00:39:11   that it will be can't get in the sandbox [TS]

00:39:12   right now at all but if they can be and [TS]

00:39:14   they just refuse to because it takes too [TS]

00:39:16   much effort I will be gently pressing [TS]

00:39:18   them to say see if you would if you [TS]

00:39:20   would sandbox your applications you [TS]

00:39:22   could avoid this bug that was [TS]

00:39:24   embarrassing for you and bad for our [TS]

00:39:25   users [TS]

00:39:26   what can we do to help can we send [TS]

00:39:28   engineers out there can we help you like [TS]

00:39:29   and not everyone gets this treatment but [TS]

00:39:31   it will be even though a lot of people [TS]

00:39:32   don't use it enough people use it and [TS]

00:39:34   apple still thinks creative [TS]

00:39:35   professionals an important market for [TS]

00:39:36   them you know anyway that's my hope for [TS]

00:39:38   the future for sandboxing that it [TS]

00:39:41   actually becomes more broadly useful [TS]

00:39:43   because it's unrealistic like Casey [TS]

00:39:45   pointed out to you know and [TS]

00:39:47   counterproductive to try to get every [TS]

00:39:49   single application to the marrow sandbox [TS]

00:39:51   has defined the mac app store but it is [TS]

00:39:53   good for everybody involved in the [TS]

00:39:55   sandbox can expand and get more [TS]

00:39:57   participants in it it's just as I become [TS]

00:40:00   an older and older developer in person [TS]

00:40:03   I feel like I've learned more and more [TS]

00:40:08   usually the hard way to protect against [TS]

00:40:10   myself and this is the same thing you [TS]

00:40:11   guys are saying earlier and so as you [TS]

00:40:13   get older you you go even further than [TS]

00:40:17   you think necessary to prevent yourself [TS]

00:40:20   from being an idiot [TS]

00:40:22   at least that's the way I am and i just [TS]

00:40:25   it seems the responsible thing to do app [TS]

00:40:29   store or not to sandbox your app if at [TS]

00:40:32   all possible and yes sometimes it's a [TS]

00:40:34   friggin nightmare i am quite sure but [TS]

00:40:36   it's the responsible thing to do and in [TS]

00:40:38   its really unfortunate that adobe didn't [TS]

00:40:41   and hasn't done that yet our second spot [TS]

00:40:44   to this week is a responsible company [TS]

00:40:46   its hover hover is the best way to buy a [TS]

00:40:49   managed domain names go to hover com use [TS]

00:40:51   promo code bridges to burn Casey for ten [TS]

00:40:54   percent off your first purchase when you [TS]

00:40:57   have a great idea you want a great [TS]

00:40:58   domain name that's catchy and memorable [TS]

00:40:59   however give you exactly what you need [TS]

00:41:01   to find the perfect domain name for your [TS]

00:41:02   idea so you can get started actually [TS]

00:41:04   working on it never gives you easy to [TS]

00:41:06   use powerful tools to buy and manage [TS]

00:41:08   domains anybody can do it and if you [TS]

00:41:10   ever need any help they have amazing [TS]

00:41:12   support and all you have you know [TS]

00:41:13   regular email like everybody else but [TS]

00:41:15   they have no wait no hold no transfer [TS]

00:41:18   phone support so when you call a real [TS]

00:41:20   live human being is ready to help they [TS]

00:41:22   just pick up the phone there's no [TS]

00:41:23   weights no holds and no transfers now in [TS]

00:41:26   less than five minutes [TS]

00:41:27   find domain you can get it up and [TS]

00:41:28   running and hover all you gotta do is [TS]

00:41:30   search for a few keywords and they will [TS]

00:41:31   show you what is available from all the [TS]

00:41:34   crazy TLD that are out there and believe [TS]

00:41:35   me there are some crazy ones out there [TS]

00:41:37   these days if you register domain name [TS]

00:41:39   anywhere else you probably didn't enjoy [TS]

00:41:41   the experience very much because domain [TS]

00:41:43   name registration is notorious for being [TS]

00:41:45   just very confusing on these very hard [TS]

00:41:47   to use sites often times you feel kind [TS]

00:41:49   of cheated her or railroaded into [TS]

00:41:51   getting about to add ons that you didn't [TS]

00:41:52   really necessarily need or you don't [TS]

00:41:54   really fully understand [TS]

00:41:55   however is not like that at all however [TS]

00:41:57   respect you get respect the user they [TS]

00:41:59   have a nice clean design everything is [TS]

00:42:02   fast and responsive on their site and [TS]

00:42:04   buying things could not be easier they [TS]

00:42:07   don't try to upsell you with crazy stuff [TS]

00:42:09   or so you anything you don't need they [TS]

00:42:11   even include a bunch of stuff for free [TS]

00:42:12   like who is privacy [TS]

00:42:13   however also has email solutions twenty [TS]

00:42:16   bucks a year to a fully functional email [TS]

00:42:17   account with 10 gigs of storage 29 bucks [TS]

00:42:20   a year into the big mailbox which is a [TS]

00:42:21   terabyte of storage [TS]

00:42:23   check it out today hovered calm and use [TS]

00:42:26   promo code bridges to burn for ten [TS]

00:42:28   percent off your first purchase [TS]

00:42:30   thank you very much to her alright so [TS]

00:42:32   there was a very interesting episode of [TS]

00:42:36   the talk show this past week Tom DQ and [TS]

00:42:39   Craig federighi were on the talk show [TS]

00:42:41   and this is the third incarnation of an [TS]

00:42:45   apple executive on the talk shows that [TS]

00:42:46   correct yeah a factory second appearance [TS]

00:42:48   either he's already had two groups [TS]

00:42:50   already getting multiple appearances of [TS]

00:42:52   apple executives shows you see the new [TS]

00:42:54   malts and you never know when he can't [TS]

00:42:56   get anybody else he calls a seafood and [TS]

00:42:58   eq to come down [TS]

00:42:59   yeah yeah totally [TS]

00:43:02   so anyway so they got on the talk shows [TS]

00:43:06   a great episode which is unsurprising [TS]

00:43:08   why why do it [TS]

00:43:11   yeah that's my first question is why are [TS]

00:43:14   because the out as we made a joke that [TS]

00:43:16   group called them up and bring them on [TS]

00:43:18   sometimes that happens like I don't you [TS]

00:43:19   know it i don't i'm not privy to any [TS]

00:43:20   inside information about who calls who [TS]

00:43:22   but the question is it regardless of who [TS]

00:43:25   asked you to be on when why it do [TS]

00:43:28   why does Applewhite apple executives [TS]

00:43:30   agree to come on a podcast at this [TS]

00:43:33   particular time when Craig federighi [TS]

00:43:35   came on episode that I was actually on [TS]

00:43:38   the sort of commentary portion [TS]

00:43:40   afterwards [TS]

00:43:41   clearly he was there to talk about Swift [TS]

00:43:43   open source projects because that's [TS]

00:43:44   that's what it came on the show to do [TS]

00:43:45   that's what he talked about that it just [TS]

00:43:47   happened right when swift one open [TS]

00:43:49   source we talked about in the show they [TS]

00:43:50   talked about on the talk show and so [TS]

00:43:52   that was clear and in this case there's [TS]

00:43:54   no as far as I'm aware there's not [TS]

00:43:56   really any big apple announcement I mean [TS]

00:43:58   I guess there's a 9.3 beta but that is a [TS]

00:44:00   not particularly fresh news and so this [TS]

00:44:03   is my assumption going in when I saw [TS]

00:44:05   these were the guests was that they were [TS]

00:44:07   going to talk about [TS]

00:44:07   Walt Mossberg article because that's I [TS]

00:44:10   guess big news but I mean that's the [TS]

00:44:13   real question is not why is Apple having [TS]

00:44:16   a executives like you know talk to [TS]

00:44:18   websites as they did about Swift [TS]

00:44:20   open-sourcing or go on podcast and stuff [TS]

00:44:21   like that because that's all about the [TS]

00:44:22   whole new open apple thing but it still [TS]

00:44:24   seems like there has to be a reason and [TS]

00:44:26   having listened to the show [TS]

00:44:28   it's still not entirely clear to me like [TS]

00:44:31   what what they were there to do like [TS]

00:44:35   when you know when the celebrities on a [TS]

00:44:37   talk show on television talk show the [TS]

00:44:38   better about the movie that's that [TS]

00:44:39   opening this weekend that they're in [TS]

00:44:41   right or whatever you know and the same [TS]

00:44:42   thing with a swift open-source like [TS]

00:44:43   you're there to promote something your [TS]

00:44:44   company's doing and then at the same [TS]

00:44:45   time you know a good host of course as [TS]

00:44:47   some other questions as well but i'm [TS]

00:44:49   assuming even after listening to the [TS]

00:44:51   episode that probably the reason they [TS]

00:44:53   were there was to talk about the walt [TS]

00:44:55   mossberg article but i'm not entirely [TS]

00:44:56   sure what was your sense from listen to [TS]

00:44:58   the episode that basically that same [TS]

00:45:01   thing I mean it was you know III also [TS]

00:45:03   assumed that there be more kind of like [TS]

00:45:05   direct addressing of that but you know [TS]

00:45:08   you have like I mean as we know the [TS]

00:45:10   three people talking and you know it's [TS]

00:45:13   only a 45-minute interview you know what [TS]

00:45:15   you brought the formalities like there's [TS]

00:45:17   not a whole lot of time for like actual [TS]

00:45:18   in-depth discussion when you have three [TS]

00:45:20   people who want to talk as we know is [TS]

00:45:22   that's why our show is never 45 minutes [TS]

00:45:24   long [TS]

00:45:24   you're lucky to have us one segment be [TS]

00:45:27   45 minutes on one topic that's show's [TS]

00:45:29   logo is it never 45 minutes [TS]

00:45:30   yes let's get started and so you know i [TS]

00:45:35   think a lot of just time but but i also [TS]

00:45:36   think you know this is Apple PR were [TS]

00:45:38   talking about and even these are [TS]

00:45:39   executives coming on a talk show with [TS]

00:45:41   our friend John and you know in a kind a [TS]

00:45:43   more casual environment this is still [TS]

00:45:45   high power executives from the biggest [TS]

00:45:48   technology company in the universe etc [TS]

00:45:50   with very strong PR strategy and NPR [TS]

00:45:55   control you know like these are people [TS]

00:45:57   who are going to go off just off the [TS]

00:45:58   deep end like have a couple doing [TS]

00:46:00   something on the show and tell us all [TS]

00:46:01   the secrets like that's not that is what [TS]

00:46:02   this is you know this is in part it's [TS]

00:46:05   probably to help humanize that there are [TS]

00:46:07   people at this company not just robots [TS]

00:46:09   in a brick wall like it's actually [TS]

00:46:10   humans doing the best they can [TS]

00:46:12   it's to humanize them and also i think [TS]

00:46:15   it was really about this discussion of [TS]

00:46:17   of software and service quality it was [TS]

00:46:20   it was very [TS]

00:46:21   obvious that they were prepared with [TS]

00:46:24   stats and and you know various like [TS]

00:46:26   author authorized figures they were able [TS]

00:46:28   to give out about how well they're doing [TS]

00:46:29   how well their quality is going the the [TS]

00:46:32   crash rates that number of Apple music [TS]

00:46:34   subscribers how well the websites and [TS]

00:46:36   the web services hold up under all these [TS]

00:46:38   loads know they were very clearly [TS]

00:46:40   prepared with like PR proved stats they [TS]

00:46:44   could share to demonstrate that we don't [TS]

00:46:47   really have these big quality problems / [TS]

00:46:49   we have good reasons to have quality [TS]

00:46:51   problems like it was kind of like this [TS]

00:46:52   slightly defensive but not like in like [TS]

00:46:56   a really aggressive way and it was it [TS]

00:46:59   was basically it see it read to me or it [TS]

00:47:03   listen to me and it has to be it it [TS]

00:47:07   listened a little defensive use red [TS]

00:47:09   looking up its electric definition I [TS]

00:47:10   know but yeah it it seemed slightly [TS]

00:47:14   defensive but mostly just like almost [TS]

00:47:17   almost in denial that there are any real [TS]

00:47:21   like you know downward slopes going on [TS]

00:47:23   here and and that might be true from a [TS]

00:47:26   lot of things they talked about i mean [TS]

00:47:27   their web services are at ridiculous [TS]

00:47:30   scale and and they are mostly working [TS]

00:47:32   most of the time and they do have tons [TS]

00:47:35   of people using it but the the only [TS]

00:47:37   nitpicks I i had with it really [TS]

00:47:39   besides I wish it could be longer but I [TS]

00:47:41   understand why i probably couldn't be [TS]

00:47:42   seen I don't think you can get to high [TS]

00:47:45   power apple executives to give you like [TS]

00:47:47   three hours of rest as much as we would [TS]

00:47:50   like them to but but you know i might my [TS]

00:47:53   main it picks with it were basically [TS]

00:47:55   that there really wasn't enough time to [TS]

00:47:58   to kind of fight back a little bit order [TS]

00:48:01   to ask a lot of the things a lot of [TS]

00:48:03   their defenses were using excuses [TS]

00:48:06   they're totally within apples control to [TS]

00:48:08   change so for instance that the biggest [TS]

00:48:10   one stuck out to me was when Craig [TS]

00:48:14   federighi was a no [TS]

00:48:16   overall I thought both Craig and Randy [TS]

00:48:17   came off very well but but Craig it [TS]

00:48:20   during during one party was saying how [TS]

00:48:23   like people like snow leopard back in [TS]

00:48:25   the day but nobody ever really installed [TS]

00:48:26   snow leopard you know 10.6 points 0 and [TS]

00:48:30   most of the time people are spending on [TS]

00:48:31   like 10 points 6.4 template 6.5 [TS]

00:48:34   etc and so he's basically saying like [TS]

00:48:36   you know back then they had way fewer [TS]

00:48:38   total users and also people wait longer [TS]

00:48:40   before upgrade to the newest stuff [TS]

00:48:43   well very heavily promoted very heavily [TS]

00:48:46   pushed off an automatic software updates [TS]

00:48:48   are with an apple control Apple has [TS]

00:48:51   themselves very aggressively pushed OS [TS]

00:48:53   updates every release since then and [TS]

00:48:56   they use these to even be paid that was [TS]

00:48:58   I think the first one that was thirty [TS]

00:49:00   bucks something like that the name of [TS]

00:49:02   that I've been free after that but like [TS]

00:49:03   so back then they were paid and they [TS]

00:49:05   were a bigger deal and also most [TS]

00:49:07   critically didn't come out every year [TS]

00:49:09   you know back then did the release cycle [TS]

00:49:12   is more like every two years and I don't [TS]

00:49:14   know the exact target exactly average [TS]

00:49:15   you to write reviews of outlook but you [TS]

00:49:18   know it you know back then we we had [TS]

00:49:20   these longer cycles and of course you [TS]

00:49:23   know the product for simpler because [TS]

00:49:24   they were doing less and there is a [TS]

00:49:26   valid point to be made that we now live [TS]

00:49:28   in a way more complicated computing [TS]

00:49:30   environment we have so many more devices [TS]

00:49:32   that are doing so many more things [TS]

00:49:33   interact with so many more services but [TS]

00:49:35   then the argument that that Apple is [TS]

00:49:38   somehow or rather the argument that you [TS]

00:49:40   can excuse more flaws today because [TS]

00:49:44   everyone upgrades really fast the latest [TS]

00:49:45   OS today I don't think is a valid [TS]

00:49:47   defense because Apple is the one pushing [TS]

00:49:50   the updates that frequently and also [TS]

00:49:52   apple is the one who nowadays the OS is [TS]

00:49:55   never even get to like a point five [TS]

00:49:58   point sexually anymore like the u.s. is [TS]

00:50:00   now they're changed every year with [TS]

00:50:03   major releases and major releases kind [TS]

00:50:05   of allowed to be a little bit less [TS]

00:50:06   stable and so you now it feels like we [TS]

00:50:09   are not reaching the states that we used [TS]

00:50:10   to reach for half the release cycle [TS]

00:50:12   where things were pretty stable and you [TS]

00:50:14   can update from like you know leopard to [TS]

00:50:16   10.6 point for and be relatively sure [TS]

00:50:20   that all they worked it all out by now [TS]

00:50:21   now it seems like they don't have time [TS]

00:50:23   to work it all out anymore and that is [TS]

00:50:25   entirely an apple created construct [TS]

00:50:28   apple has created these conditions [TS]

00:50:30   apples the one pushing these conditions [TS]

00:50:31   at it's totally within apples control to [TS]

00:50:33   not heavily push the updates when it's [TS]

00:50:36   still 2.02 not do updates every year if [TS]

00:50:40   they don't want to for something like [TS]

00:50:41   the mac which is not hiding high-profile [TS]

00:50:43   this is totally with annapolis control [TS]

00:50:45   to to fix or two [TS]

00:50:47   you make better to improve and so that [TS]

00:50:51   is not about defense before I want to [TS]

00:50:53   pick up some of the things they said as [TS]

00:50:54   well and and the format but i also want [TS]

00:50:56   to hear but I'm going somewhere with [TS]

00:50:58   this why were they on the show thing and [TS]

00:51:00   I'm here Casey has the same impression [TS]

00:51:02   that they were on to talk about software [TS]

00:51:03   quality or if you thought they were on [TS]

00:51:05   for some other reason or if they're on [TS]

00:51:07   for no reason i think most simply it was [TS]

00:51:10   about software quality but I agreed that [TS]

00:51:13   it was a more meandering less focused [TS]

00:51:17   appearance then I would have expected if [TS]

00:51:19   they were if they were doing damage [TS]

00:51:21   control and i'm not sure if that's [TS]

00:51:23   deliberate if this meandering and this [TS]

00:51:26   kind of casual conversation was was to [TS]

00:51:29   lead us to believe that it wasn't damage [TS]

00:51:31   control that it was just because and [TS]

00:51:34   they just felt like talking to Gruber [TS]

00:51:35   but i would say that worry not for [TS]

00:51:39   Walt's article and clearly this podcast [TS]

00:51:41   and I don't think that uh I don't see [TS]

00:51:44   why they would have felt the need to go [TS]

00:51:46   on John show and i don't mean that as a [TS]

00:51:47   slight 22 gruber at all i just it's it's [TS]

00:51:51   not a normal thing for one let alone two [TS]

00:51:55   executives to just decide to go on a [TS]

00:51:57   podcast so i think it was about damage [TS]

00:51:59   control but I think whether or not it [TS]

00:52:02   was deliberate [TS]

00:52:03   it was loose enough to so that you [TS]

00:52:06   couldn't say it was explicitly about [TS]

00:52:08   damage control it and I'm leading up to [TS]

00:52:11   Marco's points here so bear with me bite [TS]

00:52:12   by related question this is what is the [TS]

00:52:16   job of insert whatever Craig's title [TS]

00:52:19   insurance or whatever his title is like [TS]

00:52:21   senior vice-president software whatever [TS]

00:52:23   like what is their job what if you were [TS]

00:52:25   to look at the job description if they [TS]

00:52:26   were hiring a new one if you know with [TS]

00:52:28   Greg retires and they want to hire a [TS]

00:52:29   replacement they don't want to promote [TS]

00:52:31   from within whatever like what what is [TS]

00:52:33   the job description of those executives [TS]

00:52:35   and i can tell you in the Steve Jobs era [TS]

00:52:37   the job description for all those super [TS]

00:52:39   important guys you know head of all of [TS]

00:52:42   OS 10 you know Bergeron survey or [TS]

00:52:43   whatever or like get a spearhead of the [TS]

00:52:46   iOS team or whatever that nowhere in [TS]

00:52:48   that job description was be the [TS]

00:52:51   mouthpiece for Apple I talked to the [TS]

00:52:54   public in a way that moves public [TS]

00:52:58   opinion in the direction that Apple [TS]

00:52:59   wants to move it was just add [TS]

00:53:01   absolutely not in any of their job [TS]

00:53:03   descriptions because they never talk to [TS]

00:53:04   the press they weren't allowed to talk [TS]

00:53:06   to the press they barely talk to [TS]

00:53:07   developers like that there was not in [TS]

00:53:10   the end it's different than many other [TS]

00:53:12   companies lots of other companies you [TS]

00:53:13   could say oh well once you reach a [TS]

00:53:15   certain level on the executive latter [TS]

00:53:17   part of your job is to talk to the [TS]

00:53:19   public in some way right now mediated by [TS]

00:53:21   the PR department so on and so forth but [TS]

00:53:23   that because you become a public figure [TS]

00:53:25   that occasionally says things with the [TS]

00:53:28   blessing of the cooperation in an effort [TS]

00:53:31   to to change public opinion or to get [TS]

00:53:36   your message out there or whatever [TS]

00:53:37   there's not a lot of those people like [TS]

00:53:38   everybody in the company is the voice of [TS]

00:53:40   the company but now in the post jobs are [TS]

00:53:43   in the more open apple which we all like [TS]

00:53:45   clearly some of these people at a high [TS]

00:53:48   enough level are now tasked with [TS]

00:53:51   essentially or eat asking themselves [TS]

00:53:52   with that we don't know how puts [TS]

00:53:53   motivating whatever but they are being [TS]

00:53:55   allowed that the company Apple is that [TS]

00:53:57   as a company has decided we're going to [TS]

00:54:00   send Craig federighi to 17 different [TS]

00:54:02   websites and the talkshow to tell them [TS]

00:54:04   about the Swift open source project [TS]

00:54:06   we're not just gonna have a press [TS]

00:54:07   release [TS]

00:54:08   we're not just going to have someone say [TS]

00:54:09   something in the keynote we're not just [TS]

00:54:11   going to issue official statements to PR [TS]

00:54:13   channels we're going to send this person [TS]

00:54:16   whose job up to this point did not [TS]

00:54:18   really involve a lot of public [TS]

00:54:20   statements about things he's going to go [TS]

00:54:22   out there and promote the Swift open [TS]

00:54:24   source project and try to hit the points [TS]

00:54:26   that we've all agreed that are the [TS]

00:54:28   bullet points and like marcasite little [TS]

00:54:29   sheet of whatever stats you want to say [TS]

00:54:30   whatever facts you want to get out there [TS]

00:54:32   like basically doing the job of PR but [TS]

00:54:35   now there's a human doing and so now you [TS]

00:54:37   have these two guys at Eddie and Craig [TS]

00:54:39   coming on a very casual type of [TS]

00:54:42   situation where they are talking [TS]

00:54:44   unfiltered it's not real time it's not [TS]

00:54:46   live but it's very you know just kind of [TS]

00:54:49   like we're gonna talk and we're going to [TS]

00:54:51   discuss things and the reason i asked [TS]

00:54:54   about this is as in what the job is like [TS]

00:54:57   that scale being able to being able to [TS]

00:55:01   go somewhere in an atmosphere like that [TS]

00:55:04   and hit the points that you want to hit [TS]

00:55:05   and not sound defensive and move public [TS]

00:55:09   opinion and not saying it not make any [TS]

00:55:13   missteps that's not easy [TS]

00:55:14   thing to do not that I'm saying you [TS]

00:55:16   don't remember bad if they're much [TS]

00:55:17   better than you know I would ever be [TS]

00:55:18   like they're very skilled at their jobs [TS]

00:55:20   but the job starting is not included [TS]

00:55:21   this and when i listen to that episode [TS]

00:55:24   I'm thinking some of these things as [TS]

00:55:26   market one that were clearly written now [TS]

00:55:27   like that you know that these are the [TS]

00:55:29   points that we're going to hit about [TS]

00:55:30   reliability and blah blah you you you [TS]

00:55:33   might think that Apple is like Apple [TS]

00:55:35   knows all and controls also every single [TS]

00:55:37   thing that was said of that program was [TS]

00:55:38   clearly playing at a time when Eddy Cue [TS]

00:55:40   said that there's going to be a new [TS]

00:55:41   version of the apple TV remote app for [TS]

00:55:44   the iphone that includes all the [TS]

00:55:45   functionality the remote then you'll be [TS]

00:55:47   able to play games value that [TS]

00:55:48   information was already out there and [TS]

00:55:49   grouper just didn't have to know about [TS]

00:55:50   it or was intentionally broken on the [TS]

00:55:52   talk show that they said you're allowed [TS]

00:55:54   to discuss this but I think there's also [TS]

00:55:56   a possibility that Eddy Cue had just [TS]

00:55:58   forgotten what that which things [TS]

00:56:00   Republican which things from Todd and [TS]

00:56:02   head accidentally officially confirmed [TS]

00:56:04   the updated version of the apple remote [TS]

00:56:07   application maybe every developer nah [TS]

00:56:08   man I don't keep up guys it's not a it's [TS]

00:56:10   not a story or whatever that was [TS]

00:56:11   published by the way [TS]

00:56:12   all right well anyway that type of thing [TS]

00:56:14   where is our are all apple executives so [TS]

00:56:20   well-trained PR despite having never [TS]

00:56:22   done it as part of their job description [TS]

00:56:23   that it is impossible for them to make a [TS]

00:56:25   mistake and i think it is possible for [TS]

00:56:28   them to make a mistake and I think every [TS]

00:56:30   time the apple executives go into an [TS]

00:56:32   atmosphere like this it is a risk from [TS]

00:56:34   the old world perspective of apple of [TS]

00:56:36   like but what if they accidentally say [TS]

00:56:38   something I'm not supposed to say I mean [TS]

00:56:39   again PR person is probably involved the [TS]

00:56:41   show could be edited it's not live so [TS]

00:56:42   and so far it's not that big of a risk [TS]

00:56:44   but it is entirely different like if I [TS]

00:56:47   was in these jobs will be like I've been [TS]

00:56:49   working here for X number of years and [TS]

00:56:50   never had to do this is part of my job [TS]

00:56:51   and now it's like it's like a [TS]

00:56:53   high-pressure situation where you're [TS]

00:56:55   like you are supposed to speak for the [TS]

00:56:57   company [TS]

00:56:58   don't make any mistakes and by the way [TS]

00:56:59   this is part of your job now and then [TS]

00:57:01   time something goes wrong we send you [TS]

00:57:03   out do it even if they you know [TS]

00:57:04   technically don't say anything they're [TS]

00:57:06   not supposed to say or whatever as Mark [TS]

00:57:08   pointed out it doesn't mean that they [TS]

00:57:10   are going to be able to present the [TS]

00:57:11   information in a way that moves public [TS]

00:57:13   opinion in the direction that they want [TS]

00:57:15   so for example if they sound very [TS]

00:57:17   defensive and don't give convincing [TS]

00:57:18   reasons that make things worse instead [TS]

00:57:21   of better reinforcing our worst notions [TS]

00:57:23   or whatever about what was going on [TS]

00:57:25   inside apple or if they [TS]

00:57:27   uh or if they pointed they don't address [TS]

00:57:29   particular point to say i had been an [TS]

00:57:31   aggressive interview and they were being [TS]

00:57:32   pressed they could have looked better [TS]

00:57:33   you know what I like that there's so [TS]

00:57:35   many dangers and just it's weird for me [TS]

00:57:37   to think about its reform you think [TS]

00:57:39   about this ever being part of the job of [TS]

00:57:41   someone who started their career as a [TS]

00:57:42   programmer and it was a very technical [TS]

00:57:43   person and is now asked to do this thing [TS]

00:57:47   yeah i mean and i think a part of the [TS]

00:57:49   part of the risk evaluation here is that [TS]

00:57:52   they they aren't sending pretty much [TS]

00:57:54   anybody ever and if they do somebody [TS]

00:57:56   it's like Tim Cook to general purpose [TS]

00:57:59   interviewers out in like the the regular [TS]

00:58:02   media you know they're sending these [TS]

00:58:04   people to john cooper they know that [TS]

00:58:06   he's like a respectable guy who gets [TS]

00:58:08   Apple very well and was a good [TS]

00:58:10   relationship with apple like that that's [TS]

00:58:12   not an accident that they're giving him [TS]

00:58:14   the dis access that nobody else really [TS]

00:58:17   gets or the very few people get because [TS]

00:58:19   they know that he's not gonna like be [TS]

00:58:21   all like sensational on them and be [TS]

00:58:23   super aggressive her or just spend the [TS]

00:58:25   whole 45 minutes asking like about [TS]

00:58:27   future iphone which they which they will [TS]

00:58:29   never talk about like you know certainly [TS]

00:58:31   it is still a risk to go [TS]

00:58:32   unscrew these mostly unscripted I mean [TS]

00:58:34   even like you know when he had filled [TS]

00:58:35   the BBC like that was even more because [TS]

00:58:37   that was like that was live in front of [TS]

00:58:39   a few hundred people and broadcast the [TS]

00:58:41   internet to a few more than 3,000 more [TS]

00:58:42   least you know so he is I feel like Phil [TS]

00:58:44   is actually good at that [TS]

00:58:45   I got that it's always so he's been in [TS]

00:58:46   marketing so like I think that has been [TS]

00:58:48   part of his job description even he's [TS]

00:58:50   not speaking for the company he [TS]

00:58:51   essentially was telling people what to [TS]

00:58:53   say on behalf of the company as part of [TS]

00:58:55   his role as the chief of marketing so [TS]

00:58:57   yeah you're right is much harder like in [TS]

00:58:59   front of a live audience where you can't [TS]

00:59:02   take back anything there's no editing or [TS]

00:59:03   anything like that but Phil I I feel [TS]

00:59:05   like it's an old hand at this and has no [TS]

00:59:07   problem whereas particularly Craig [TS]

00:59:09   always strikes me as a technical person [TS]

00:59:11   who has had this role thrust upon him [TS]

00:59:14   he's been thrust onto the stage keynotes [TS]

00:59:16   and he's gotten really good at that and [TS]

00:59:18   now he's just going off the cuff and you [TS]

00:59:20   know kind of the same thing with Eddie [TS]

00:59:21   where you didn't see a lot of him [TS]

00:59:23   onstage until recent years right and [TS]

00:59:25   maybe that's just part of his ascent in [TS]

00:59:27   the organization but having that be part [TS]

00:59:29   of your job and like and I'm saying that [TS]

00:59:31   not as if I think like it's a bad thing [TS]

00:59:33   that like oh this is like a danger and [TS]

00:59:36   apple should cut it out [TS]

00:59:37   merely that this new open apple that we [TS]

00:59:40   all like [TS]

00:59:41   this is part of what comes with it part [TS]

00:59:42   of it comes to understanding on both [TS]

00:59:44   sides of the fence that being more open [TS]

00:59:45   means that human beings are going to [TS]

00:59:47   come out and be open and if they say [TS]

00:59:50   things wrong or whatever you can't hold [TS]

00:59:52   them to the same standards as we help be [TS]

00:59:54   carefully controlled manicured PR [TS]

00:59:57   presence of the old Apple because you [TS]

00:59:59   can't you can't have it [TS]

00:59:59   can't you can't have it [TS]

01:00:00   both ways were like we wanted to be more [TS]

01:00:01   open but you want every single thing [TS]

01:00:02   that every person has to be perfect all [TS]

01:00:04   the time right [TS]

01:00:05   you have to the more you're open the [TS]

01:00:08   more we all in this sort of dialogue is [TS]

01:00:09   you know customer and company have to [TS]

01:00:12   become comfortable with the idea that in [TS]

01:00:14   an open dialogue it's not as clean and [TS]

01:00:17   shiny and perfect and so if they sound a [TS]

01:00:19   little bit defensive it's because [TS]

01:00:20   they're human beings and they're being [TS]

01:00:21   asked questions that they might feel [TS]

01:00:23   defensive about and you can't do you [TS]

01:00:25   know excoriate them for being the humans [TS]

01:00:27   that we always wish they were so I'm I'm [TS]

01:00:29   i want to be clear on trying to do is I [TS]

01:00:31   want to encourage more of this and i'm [TS]

01:00:33   almost kind of sad that they didn't make [TS]

01:00:34   any you know big but blunders because I [TS]

01:00:37   think if they did I think it would be [TS]

01:00:38   fine [TS]

01:00:39   well but I think you're right that it [TS]

01:00:41   would be fine however Apple wouldn't [TS]

01:00:43   think it would be fine and so if they if [TS]

01:00:45   they had made any big blunders it would [TS]

01:00:47   greatly reduce the chances of us getting [TS]

01:00:49   more access to them in the future like [TS]

01:00:51   this [TS]

01:00:52   what I'm trying to say to encourage [TS]

01:00:53   Apple basically say at least I am and I [TS]

01:00:57   think we all should be just more [TS]

01:00:58   forgiving so that they can they can feel [TS]

01:01:00   safe doing this because we want a more [TS]

01:01:02   open dialogue and I think if anyone in [TS]

01:01:06   sort of the apple tech press decides to [TS]

01:01:08   jump on these times just gonna scare [TS]

01:01:09   them back into their holes so let's [TS]

01:01:11   let's let's be nice but yeah but you [TS]

01:01:14   know we can be nice and we can be civil [TS]

01:01:16   and we can still disagree with things [TS]

01:01:18   they say or you can criticize you know [TS]

01:01:20   things they say in normal civil ways you [TS]

01:01:22   know and so I don't think I'm not saying [TS]

01:01:24   like I don't think you're saying that we [TS]

01:01:26   should take it easy on the necessarily [TS]

01:01:28   just that we should you know be civil [TS]

01:01:31   and reasonable and not not like you know [TS]

01:01:34   kind of given the benefit of the doubt [TS]

01:01:35   if they'd like misspeak slightly or [TS]

01:01:37   something is I would really is roughly [TS]

01:01:39   what you're saying yeah and as for like [TS]

01:01:41   your specific points about lightning [TS]

01:01:42   that you're right it was a short [TS]

01:01:43   interview that was a lot of time to get [TS]

01:01:44   into things and as I said when Craig was [TS]

01:01:47   on they're not going to go into the [TS]

01:01:49   level of detail that we go into about [TS]

01:01:50   these things that's not the forum for [TS]

01:01:52   it's not as if it like that that's part [TS]

01:01:55   of what you know what is their job and [TS]

01:01:56   also what is the purpose of a podcast [TS]

01:01:59   like this when you have these executives [TS]

01:02:00   there it that is not the time to [TS]

01:02:02   harangue them about whatever your pet [TS]

01:02:06   problem is you're not going to affect [TS]

01:02:07   the [TS]

01:02:10   you know the design apple's macintosh [TS]

01:02:12   application design philosophy that [TS]

01:02:14   leaves begin to a bar side you are not [TS]

01:02:16   going to change that philosophy by [TS]

01:02:17   arguing with Gregg federighi about it on [TS]

01:02:20   a podcast right you're not going to get [TS]

01:02:22   him to say yeah you're right it sucks [TS]

01:02:23   like that like you like you are going to [TS]

01:02:25   get a DQ to say yeah itunes is horrible [TS]

01:02:27   and the itunes store infrastructure is [TS]

01:02:29   just the worst but hold on i mean he did [TS]

01:02:32   admit that like itunes challenges [TS]

01:02:33   whatever the whole point is like you're [TS]

01:02:34   not going to like that's it there's a [TS]

01:02:37   time and place for that in this writ [TS]

01:02:38   small that I think we're all at this [TS]

01:02:40   point familiar with is that if you go to [TS]

01:02:42   WWDC and you find the one guy who writes [TS]

01:02:45   the obscure framework their application [TS]

01:02:46   is using you could possibly convince him [TS]

01:02:49   one-on-one to change this parameter in [TS]

01:02:51   this API to do this thing in the next [TS]

01:02:53   major version that can actually happen [TS]

01:02:55   right that is the level of individuals [TS]

01:02:58   ability to talk to other individuals as [TS]

01:03:01   humans but it's not in public that [TS]

01:03:04   person who commits will never admit that [TS]

01:03:05   they talk to you and it's like a [TS]

01:03:07   parameter an API call right you know [TS]

01:03:09   it's very different than you know trying [TS]

01:03:12   to convince the you know flying out to [TS]

01:03:15   cupertino and sitting down a giant table [TS]

01:03:17   with the entire executive team at apple [TS]

01:03:19   and say in this 10-minute presentation [TS]

01:03:21   go i'm going to convince you that you [TS]

01:03:23   need to redesign photos in this [TS]

01:03:25   particular way and then they will [TS]

01:03:26   dismiss you and you know then they will [TS]

01:03:28   realize they were working on new version [TS]

01:03:30   of photos for like a year a new version [TS]

01:03:31   of itunes for 12 years or a new file [TS]

01:03:33   system for X number of years and you [TS]

01:03:35   know you you don't have enough [TS]

01:03:36   information put another way you don't [TS]

01:03:37   have enough information to be compelling [TS]

01:03:39   to them so i think all we can do as a [TS]

01:03:41   sort of the public out here is merely [TS]

01:03:43   explain things from our perspective [TS]

01:03:46   because we just we just simply don't [TS]

01:03:49   have enough information to make to [TS]

01:03:52   convince Apple to do anything but you [TS]

01:03:53   have no idea we still have no idea what [TS]

01:03:55   they're actually doing all we can do is [TS]

01:03:57   say here's how we feel as users and hope [TS]

01:03:59   that gets through to them and if we feel [TS]

01:04:01   like there's a communication barrier [TS]

01:04:02   then thats that's what them coming on [TS]

01:04:04   podcast is about saying we hear you we [TS]

01:04:06   understand your concerns and you can go [TS]

01:04:08   back and forth on them and try to [TS]

01:04:09   clarify them or whatever and when it [TS]

01:04:11   feels like there's a gap like in this [TS]

01:04:12   case where Mark was saying that like [TS]

01:04:14   well you don't understand here's all the [TS]

01:04:16   things we have to deal with like where [TS]

01:04:18   you start sounding defensive and you can [TS]

01:04:20   come back with snappy answers like well [TS]

01:04:21   google has [TS]

01:04:22   with this kind of volume 2 and they do [TS]

01:04:23   it better so what's the deal there are [TS]

01:04:25   all itunes big load for years and [TS]

01:04:26   everybody degrees in this so where's the [TS]

01:04:28   new version and you say you agree but [TS]

01:04:29   where is that like they're not going to [TS]

01:04:30   tell you all the new version we've been [TS]

01:04:32   working on it for a while now it's gonna [TS]

01:04:33   come out and it's gonna be split into [TS]

01:04:34   this number applications and blonde [TS]

01:04:36   didn't make this really they're not [TS]

01:04:37   going to tell you that [TS]

01:04:38   so all they can do is get their [TS]

01:04:39   perspective in a sanitized way so it's a [TS]

01:04:42   little bit like boys and girls with the [TS]

01:04:44   dance at the opposite sides of the gym [TS]

01:04:46   and no one going into the middle to [TS]

01:04:48   dance and and it has to be that way [TS]

01:04:50   because at the very least apple is not [TS]

01:04:53   going to you know to reveal itself in [TS]

01:04:57   the public forum we have the advantage [TS]

01:04:59   of being able to real all of our [TS]

01:05:00   frustrations and put them out there and [TS]

01:05:03   then have apple hear them in whatever [TS]

01:05:04   way that one here but Apple is not going [TS]

01:05:06   to be that forthcoming so it is it's [TS]

01:05:09   still strange relationship but i like [TS]

01:05:11   the fact that there is any kind of [TS]

01:05:12   communication going in both directions [TS]

01:05:13   of these days [TS]

01:05:14   yeah I've been really impressed by [TS]

01:05:17   Apple's willingness to communicate and [TS]

01:05:19   and i agree with you i would really hate [TS]

01:05:21   to see that stop [TS]

01:05:22   I'm I've really enjoyed these episodes [TS]

01:05:25   of the talk show and you know if they [TS]

01:05:27   ever decided to branch out into other [TS]

01:05:29   podcast I'm sure that it could be [TS]

01:05:31   accommodated by home with that said I [TS]

01:05:35   was reflecting on my memory of the [TS]

01:05:37   episode III listen to it pretty much [TS]

01:05:39   immediately once it was out this was [TS]

01:05:40   almost week ago now but on there was a [TS]

01:05:43   bit of a theme you can you keep saying [TS]

01:05:45   John being defensive and I think that's [TS]

01:05:47   a fair characterization but reflecting [TS]

01:05:50   on the the pieces that struck me the [TS]

01:05:52   most was a little bit of playing the [TS]

01:05:55   victim [TS]

01:05:56   itunes is really old and we have to [TS]

01:05:59   support devices that go back to the [TS]

01:06:01   beginning of time you know what do you [TS]

01:06:03   expect us to do we have a lot of users [TS]

01:06:06   guys you don't get it we have a lot of [TS]

01:06:08   users let me tell you all the things we [TS]

01:06:10   do well we're gonna leave the [TS]

01:06:11   transactions we process right you know [TS]

01:06:13   any q's ready with big numbers for [TS]

01:06:15   presentations we do a lot of these [TS]

01:06:17   things and like you have to acknowledge [TS]

01:06:18   like yes they do those things but likely [TS]

01:06:20   sure the communication barrier is like [TS]

01:06:22   we understand what you're doing is that [TS]

01:06:24   god it's like playing the victim is one [TS]

01:06:26   way to say but the other way is like [TS]

01:06:27   it's like being in operations or [TS]

01:06:30   whatever you want to call it at any big [TS]

01:06:32   company where you're the one responsible [TS]

01:06:33   for service and stuff working [TS]

01:06:35   nobody cares about your job when [TS]

01:06:37   everything goes well right they only [TS]

01:06:38   care about it when something breaks [TS]

01:06:40   right you get no credit practically for [TS]

01:06:43   hey did you guys realize that for the [TS]

01:06:45   past you know X number of hours or days [TS]

01:06:46   or whatever this service was perfectly [TS]

01:06:48   fine know they like they just expected [TS]

01:06:50   it's like the power company that markets [TS]

01:06:51   are talking about [TS]

01:06:52   nobody cares about the power company [TS]

01:06:53   when the power is on you only care about [TS]

01:06:55   the power company on the one day a year [TS]

01:06:56   it's often then you're super pissed off [TS]

01:06:57   at them [TS]

01:06:58   I'm so in some ways it's a thankless job [TS]

01:07:00   but but that is the job if you work at [TS]

01:07:02   the power company you understand that [TS]

01:07:04   the job when the power goes out because [TS]

01:07:06   of something you don't say look you [TS]

01:07:07   don't understand how many how many miles [TS]

01:07:08   of lines we have and there's ice all [TS]

01:07:10   over them and you know tree branches [TS]

01:07:12   leaning on them and birds pecking at [TS]

01:07:14   them and we don't have tax money to fund [TS]

01:07:15   like the power company can make all [TS]

01:07:17   those same exact complaints and they [TS]

01:07:18   should do the parties they can change [TS]

01:07:20   things but when your power goes out you [TS]

01:07:21   don't wanna hear it [TS]

01:07:22   yeah exactly and you know this this [TS]

01:07:24   victim sort of card got played couple [TS]

01:07:27   more times [TS]

01:07:28   oh you know yes we have a lot of users [TS]

01:07:29   and yes we are we are decent to serving [TS]

01:07:32   a lot of users let's say with iMessage [TS]

01:07:33   but you have to understand that we scale [TS]

01:07:36   exponentially which all these things to [TS]

01:07:39   be clear are fair [TS]

01:07:41   yeah affair observations but but still [TS]

01:07:43   it's only you guys don't get it you [TS]

01:07:45   don't get it but the the one that we [TS]

01:07:47   haven't talked about that i thought was [TS]

01:07:48   most fascinating was a pretty clear [TS]

01:07:51   no I'm gonna use the word admission but [TS]

01:07:53   that's not really what I'm looking for [TS]

01:07:54   but acknowledgement maybe a pretty clear [TS]

01:07:57   acknowledgement from craig that radar is [TS]

01:08:01   kind of fundamentally broken our serving [TS]

01:08:04   for serving the public that's like [TS]

01:08:06   acknowledging that it's dark at night I [TS]

01:08:08   mean that's what fun things you just [TS]

01:08:10   can't like yeah something that [TS]

01:08:12   undeniable even any admitted itunes blow [TS]

01:08:14   but radar yeah no one is going to be I [TS]

01:08:17   don't think it's possible to send anyone [TS]

01:08:18   from Apple to come out to defend radar [TS]

01:08:20   web and I think you're right but [TS]

01:08:23   nevertheless I thought it was an [TS]

01:08:25   important step for it to be said in [TS]

01:08:29   public that hey this is broken and [TS]

01:08:30   there's a little bit of victim playing [TS]

01:08:31   here too [TS]

01:08:32   well you don't understand that's super [TS]

01:08:34   important for us internally this is this [TS]

01:08:36   serves a really really big purpose for [TS]

01:08:38   us we can't just throw out the baby with [TS]

01:08:39   the bathwater yeah we we really needed [TS]

01:08:42   internally but you know we probably have [TS]

01:08:44   some room to grow externally [TS]

01:08:46   in and i thought that that Vic victim [TS]

01:08:50   playing all of which to some degree was [TS]

01:08:53   fair was interesting it was very subtle [TS]

01:08:55   but most of all I just thought it was [TS]

01:08:58   fascinating to see some admissions of [TS]

01:09:01   infallibility coming from the two of [TS]

01:09:03   them [TS]

01:09:03   yeah i think someone with more PR [TS]

01:09:05   training more formal PR training would [TS]

01:09:06   know that those are not winning ankles [TS]

01:09:08   as Marco pointed out in the the episode [TS]

01:09:10   that we almost titled for effort like [TS]

01:09:11   that if you work really hard on [TS]

01:09:14   something you can't come to the public [TS]

01:09:16   with that like that's what you tell [TS]

01:09:17   yourself internally right you can have [TS]

01:09:18   these discussions internally about [TS]

01:09:20   here's why it's really hard to do [TS]

01:09:22   whatever to deal with itunes because [TS]

01:09:24   it's really popular to deal with updates [TS]

01:09:26   like these are everything they're saying [TS]

01:09:28   is true but when you go to the public [TS]

01:09:30   part of PR training is to know what can [TS]

01:09:32   we say to the public there that that is [TS]

01:09:34   going to move their opinion in the way [TS]

01:09:35   that we want to move you have to that's [TS]

01:09:37   the problem with having engineers talk [TS]

01:09:39   to anybody they will just tell you the [TS]

01:09:40   truth and they will explain the real [TS]

01:09:41   situations and if you explain you know [TS]

01:09:43   and if if your job is PR it's not to [TS]

01:09:47   simply tell the truth about the [TS]

01:09:48   situation and not even to tell limited [TS]

01:09:50   version that is to figure out what can i [TS]

01:09:52   say that will make people change their [TS]

01:09:55   minds slightly about issue XR wiring [TS]

01:09:58   doesn't mean you have to lie or be [TS]

01:09:59   manipulative or whatever but it is a [TS]

01:10:01   skill that being you know there's a [TS]

01:10:02   reason PRS profession and not like the [TS]

01:10:05   injuries would have to do PR on the side [TS]

01:10:06   like it is an actual real skill and it [TS]

01:10:09   takes a while [TS]

01:10:10   same thing with presenting on stage it [TS]

01:10:11   takes awhile to get good at and there's [TS]

01:10:13   training involved in everything like [TS]

01:10:14   that i think both those guys on the show [TS]

01:10:16   showed a slight lack of PR training in [TS]

01:10:22   in terms of there are things that they [TS]

01:10:24   said that either shouldn't upset or [TS]

01:10:26   should have said in a different way to [TS]

01:10:27   to move the needle on the direction that [TS]

01:10:29   seemed to me that they wanted to move it [TS]

01:10:31   and and you know i like the more for it [TS]

01:10:33   like in terms of seems more human and I [TS]

01:10:35   a do want to hear the inside scoop and I [TS]

01:10:37   do one here with the thinking about [TS]

01:10:39   these things but PR why's it may not [TS]

01:10:42   have been effective as another angle but [TS]

01:10:44   I'm same information i think if they had [TS]

01:10:46   if they were more strictly PR trained or [TS]

01:10:50   or word hearing more strictly to PR [TS]

01:10:52   styles of of speaking and responding i [TS]

01:10:55   think it would have been far less [TS]

01:10:57   interesting so here's my perfect example [TS]

01:10:59   of the opposite that Steve Jobs was as [TS]

01:11:01   far as an hour not PR trained super [TS]

01:11:04   interesting but he knew what to say to [TS]

01:11:06   move things in the direction you want to [TS]

01:11:08   move them [TS]

01:11:08   oh sure yeah but i would say like like I [TS]

01:11:12   don't like when tim cook these [TS]

01:11:13   interviews to like you know 60 minutes [TS]

01:11:15   whatever i stopped even watching them [TS]

01:11:16   yeah those are boring he's so controlled [TS]

01:11:19   and so trained and send just his [TS]

01:11:21   personality is you know he keeps things [TS]

01:11:23   so close to the vest like I get nothing [TS]

01:11:25   out of them [TS]

01:11:26   also he's like a genuinely nice guy it [TS]

01:11:28   seems like it's not well everybody's [TS]

01:11:31   nice for steve jobs at an edge really [TS]

01:11:33   Steve Jobs like you know like Steve Jobs [TS]

01:11:35   gonna give some digging like AT&T you [TS]

01:11:37   knew he'd do it looking publicly like [TS]

01:11:39   stuff like that like I i feel like you [TS]

01:11:41   know tim cook speaks the way i would [TS]

01:11:43   expect most CEOs to speak you know and [TS]

01:11:45   he's better than the average certainly [TS]

01:11:47   but but you know it's not like not in [TS]

01:11:49   the way that's like a major event when [TS]

01:11:51   he talks to a network news show for 20 [TS]

01:11:53   minutes about what they're doing you [TS]

01:11:55   know it's not ever taken tim cook for [TS]

01:11:57   granted because like when I feel like [TS]

01:11:58   when tim cook talks about the [TS]

01:12:00   environment or labor practices just like [TS]

01:12:02   that I genuine human rights that I [TS]

01:12:04   genuinely believe that Tim Cook really [TS]

01:12:06   believes those things like it's not some [TS]

01:12:08   smarmy kind of i'm saying this to make [TS]

01:12:10   our company like he seems genuine and he [TS]

01:12:14   seems like a genuine friendly person who [TS]

01:12:17   cares about the world and wants to make [TS]

01:12:18   a better and so on and so forth and that [TS]

01:12:21   can be boring when you're looking for [TS]

01:12:23   like blood in the water [TS]

01:12:24   something like that i'm steve jobs as [TS]

01:12:26   the example of like I think he was just [TS]

01:12:28   instinctive like instinctively he was a [TS]

01:12:30   natural at it knowing how could talk [TS]

01:12:33   eventually was a natural when he was [TS]

01:12:35   young it wasn't great at it but they [TS]

01:12:36   have the latter day Steve job knowing [TS]

01:12:38   how to talk to the press to move the [TS]

01:12:42   discussion or the issue or public [TS]

01:12:44   opinion or whatever in the direction he [TS]

01:12:46   wanted to use I wanted to go in [TS]

01:12:48   while still sounding entirely genuine [TS]

01:12:51   human and interesting because he was [TS]

01:12:54   willing to say the thing that you know [TS]

01:12:57   take a dig at some other vendor or say [TS]

01:13:01   something is crap or something is great [TS]

01:13:03   or whatever or have make blanket denials [TS]

01:13:06   that he goes back on later whatever he [TS]

01:13:07   was able to do that just instinctively [TS]

01:13:09   and that dessert I think a rare skill [TS]

01:13:11   that again even see [TS]

01:13:13   jobs didn't happen as early days when he [TS]

01:13:14   was young with say terrible things to [TS]

01:13:15   the President and then regret them later [TS]

01:13:17   and I don't think Craig annuity quite [TS]

01:13:20   have that yet but i'm saying is i think [TS]

01:13:24   you can be if not PR trained or good at [TS]

01:13:28   you know that better moving the [TS]

01:13:29   discussion while still being see both [TS]

01:13:31   seaming and being entirely human [TS]

01:13:33   i mean i think that the the Swift [TS]

01:13:35   open-source thing was a better example [TS]

01:13:36   that because there was the real like [TS]

01:13:38   that it wasn't like a defensive or try [TS]

01:13:41   to change public opinion was really [TS]

01:13:43   promoting something that Craig really [TS]

01:13:45   believed in that actually was a really [TS]

01:13:46   good thing and so he could be very [TS]

01:13:47   detailed and human and funny and [TS]

01:13:49   interesting and also promote the idea [TS]

01:13:51   that Swift is awesome that open source [TS]

01:13:53   is awesome the Apple is awesome for [TS]

01:13:54   doing Swift open source and all that [TS]

01:13:56   stuff all of which he agreed with and [TS]

01:13:58   was able to promote in a way that was [TS]

01:14:00   interesting and engaging and in this [TS]

01:14:02   situation it seems kind of like these [TS]

01:14:05   two we're thrown to the wolves at bay [TS]

01:14:08   and again I don't know this is based on [TS]

01:14:09   information I don't know do they [TS]

01:14:10   volunteer for this where they told they [TS]

01:14:12   should do this [TS]

01:14:13   did John asked them to be on who you [TS]

01:14:15   know who knows what the situation was [TS]

01:14:16   but it almost seemed like they found [TS]

01:14:18   themselves in a situation where you know [TS]

01:14:20   it's up to you to try to move the needle [TS]

01:14:26   on this issue of public opinion about [TS]

01:14:28   this while boss work thing so here you [TS]

01:14:30   go [TS]

01:14:30   good luck guys are famill sponsor [TS]

01:14:33   tonight is Harry's go to Harry's com use [TS]

01:14:36   promo code ATP to save five dollars off [TS]

01:14:38   your first purchase Harry's offers [TS]

01:14:40   factory direct pricing on high-quality [TS]

01:14:41   razors and blades for a fraction of the [TS]

01:14:44   price of the big brands about half the [TS]

01:14:45   price of what used to paying the [TS]

01:14:47   drugstore plus you don't have to wait [TS]

01:14:48   for some guy to come over and I'm not [TS]

01:14:49   the shoplifting case you actually buy [TS]

01:14:51   them they ship them right to your door [TS]

01:14:53   for me nicely made website that its [TS]

01:14:55   pleasant to order from they have great [TS]

01:14:57   support of ever need it it's everything [TS]

01:14:58   you wanted like a modern web business [TS]

01:15:00   right but it's for razors because let's [TS]

01:15:02   face it buying reason the drugstore is [TS]

01:15:04   not pleasant right now for Harry's these [TS]

01:15:07   are great quality blades they did and [TS]

01:15:10   they have this great starter sets an [TS]

01:15:11   amazing deal for fifteen dollars you get [TS]

01:15:13   a razor moisturization shave cream or [TS]

01:15:15   gel and three blade cartridges and we [TS]

01:15:17   need more blades they're just two [TS]

01:15:19   dollars each or less an eight-pack is [TS]

01:15:21   just 15 bucks a 16 pack is 25 bucks now [TS]

01:15:25   I'm recovering [TS]

01:15:26   shaving nerd and I I've compared a lot [TS]

01:15:28   of blades out there this to me is the [TS]

01:15:30   best deal and shaving today from what [TS]

01:15:32   I've seen from what I've tried you can't [TS]

01:15:34   beat Harry's 16 pack up late for 25 [TS]

01:15:36   bucks i mean if you compare that to [TS]

01:15:38   something like the gillette fusion which [TS]

01:15:39   I would say is its closest competitor a [TS]

01:15:41   16 pack fusion blades is fifty-six [TS]

01:15:43   dollars that's what Harris Harris urges [TS]

01:15:46   $25 for so really this is less than half [TS]

01:15:48   the price of the bigger brands so check [TS]

01:15:51   it out today go to Harry's com get that [TS]

01:15:53   starter set for fifteen bucks razor [TS]

01:15:56   moisturizing shave cream or gel and [TS]

01:15:57   three blade cartridge is all for just 15 [TS]

01:15:59   bucks shipped to your door [TS]

01:16:01   that's right shipping is free this is [TS]

01:16:03   very nice classy designs to the handles [TS]

01:16:06   look really nice there wait either metal [TS]

01:16:08   they're nice and heavy too heavy to [TS]

01:16:10   looking like madmen aesthetic and the [TS]

01:16:11   prices you just you just cannot beat [TS]

01:16:13   these prices and you can use promo code [TS]

01:16:15   ATP to save five dollars off your first [TS]

01:16:19   purchase so go to Harry's dot-com right [TS]

01:16:21   now [TS]

01:16:22   use promo code ATP get that starter set [TS]

01:16:25   15 bucks and save five dollars off your [TS]

01:16:27   first purchase with cody thanks a lot of [TS]

01:16:29   areas [TS]

01:16:29   alright what else you talkin about [TS]

01:16:30   tonight John this item has been in the [TS]

01:16:32   notes for a little bit i think i've seen [TS]

01:16:34   some links to it because it went around [TS]

01:16:36   the web a couple weeks ago that was [TS]

01:16:38   worth keeping because while you might [TS]

01:16:40   have you seen this [TS]

01:16:41   the thing about to like to hear that [TS]

01:16:42   thing about vector networks from this [TS]

01:16:43   company figma no I i saw it but I don't [TS]

01:16:48   understand it but it sounds cool because [TS]

01:16:50   like I as somebody who likes so that the [TS]

01:16:52   idea of this is like a new way to draw a [TS]

01:16:54   vector art basically can like a new [TS]

01:16:56   basically a new like data structure for [TS]

01:16:58   vector art and and I have always been [TS]

01:17:01   baffled by the few attempts I've made [TS]

01:17:03   doing vector art be like as you know in [TS]

01:17:07   from my very very light and very [TS]

01:17:08   occasional needs to do it that these [TS]

01:17:11   programs always been very hard for me to [TS]

01:17:13   understand and it's been very hard for [TS]

01:17:15   me to achieve the result i want that [TS]

01:17:17   seems very obvious ago I just want this [TS]

01:17:19   line to go from here to here and be [TS]

01:17:20   perfectly smooth and like it's so hard [TS]

01:17:22   to do some of those things if you aren't [TS]

01:17:24   familiar with with like the tools of [TS]

01:17:25   Bezier curves basically and weird weird [TS]

01:17:28   stuff like that so it do understand [TS]

01:17:30   correctly this is kind of like an [TS]

01:17:31   alternative whole system that makes more [TS]

01:17:32   sense [TS]

01:17:33   yeah so this since this as far as i can [TS]

01:17:35   tell it's not a piece of software you [TS]

01:17:36   can download to try at this point I'm [TS]

01:17:39   just going by [TS]

01:17:40   the various animations and then the [TS]

01:17:41   description on their website and i don't [TS]

01:17:45   know if it will be any good or old bed [TS]

01:17:46   do what they say it will do but i'm most [TS]

01:17:49   interested in it because very often I [TS]

01:17:52   see in discussions about software for [TS]

01:17:54   running platform iOS and mac or whatever [TS]

01:17:57   now a lot of people myself included fall [TS]

01:17:59   into the the fatalistic notion sometimes [TS]

01:18:02   that there's no point in making an [TS]

01:18:06   application that does X because that's a [TS]

01:18:08   soft problem and you don't need another [TS]

01:18:11   one and the markets all tied up and you [TS]

01:18:13   know you don't want to go red ocean you [TS]

01:18:14   wanna go blue ocean go where nobody else [TS]

01:18:16   is and find the market that is unserved [TS]

01:18:19   and serve that one [TS]

01:18:20   aren't most oceans blue else's analogies [TS]

01:18:23   the nintendo wii think you know about [TS]

01:18:25   this right just really a poor color [TS]

01:18:26   choice red oceans because there's blood [TS]

01:18:28   in the water from the competitors eating [TS]

01:18:31   each other but doesn't lose you mean [TS]

01:18:32   there's no customers because it's just [TS]

01:18:34   empty [TS]

01:18:34   yes that's right you want to go where no [TS]

01:18:36   one is serving the customers is it there [TS]

01:18:38   are no competitors like what you the [TS]

01:18:39   other competitors are the are the things [TS]

01:18:41   you can change the color of the water no [TS]

01:18:42   competitors are there eating each other [TS]

01:18:44   you'll just be the only one there and no [TS]

01:18:45   one is eating you so there's no blood in [TS]

01:18:46   the ocean but you have nobody to either [TS]

01:18:48   because there's no customers the water [TS]

01:18:50   your customers it's not a perfect [TS]

01:18:51   I don't make it happen ease i think [TS]

01:18:54   anyone ever started for the we go [TS]

01:18:56   reference old hypercritical episodes as [TS]

01:18:58   always I'll be the answer key is there [TS]

01:19:00   it's like the rosetta stone just go back [TS]

01:19:01   we should totally review business books [TS]

01:19:02   in the show [TS]

01:19:03   oh god you thought you were escape Casey [TS]

01:19:06   that's not so anyway with the vector [TS]

01:19:09   drawing outside the same experience I [TS]

01:19:10   got used illustrator 88 and learned how [TS]

01:19:13   to use vector tools and the various [TS]

01:19:15   applications into more variety back then [TS]

01:19:16   like mac girl and almost all the other [TS]

01:19:18   applications you guys have never heard [TS]

01:19:19   of or used but these days it has settled [TS]

01:19:22   down in most vector drawing applications [TS]

01:19:24   and now that illustrator is like wipe [TS]

01:19:25   them all from the face of the planet [TS]

01:19:26   free hands even around the neighborhood [TS]

01:19:28   ever follow a similar theme for in terms [TS]

01:19:32   of the controls just a lot of is just [TS]

01:19:34   because of historically speaking that [TS]

01:19:35   once you establish the sort of keyboard [TS]

01:19:38   modifiers that everyone is used to and [TS]

01:19:40   everything that is like out what drawing [TS]

01:19:41   vectors in this particular way and at [TS]

01:19:43   this point if you're not someone who [TS]

01:19:44   uses about growing up all the time you [TS]

01:19:47   will find it weird and you like Marco [TS]

01:19:49   will not be able to do what you want to [TS]

01:19:50   do [TS]

01:19:51   because it will seem like i just want to [TS]

01:19:52   connect this line to that line to that [TS]

01:19:54   line and why doesn't let me connect here [TS]

01:19:55   and no this is actually connected that [TS]

01:19:57   line is disconnected and there's little [TS]

01:19:59   endcap sticking out and why can't this [TS]

01:20:01   curve go the way I wanted and you know [TS]

01:20:03   what is the winding number and why when [TS]

01:20:04   i try to fill this region does it leak [TS]

01:20:05   out because it looks like this entirely [TS]

01:20:07   closed circle and also the crap and at [TS]

01:20:10   the same time a software developer would [TS]

01:20:12   so I'm not gonna do a vector drawing [TS]

01:20:14   application that market is so not like [TS]

01:20:16   there are so many strong competitors and [TS]

01:20:17   there's great applications what [TS]

01:20:19   Who am I even serving with like say I'm [TS]

01:20:22   making a vector drawing application that [TS]

01:20:23   that's really good i say it's just all [TS]

01:20:26   you know just as good as one of the [TS]

01:20:27   strong market leaders so what who's [TS]

01:20:30   gonna buy mine is already an application [TS]

01:20:32   that does that by Napoli by a vendor has [TS]

01:20:33   been around longer than has more support [TS]

01:20:34   that has you know they have such a head [TS]

01:20:36   start on me is no point and i like the [TS]

01:20:39   idea of this vector networks thing of I [TS]

01:20:41   think in every application domain there [TS]

01:20:43   is the possibility of saying yeah it if [TS]

01:20:46   there's a market that is you know [TS]

01:20:48   heavily saturated with lots of very [TS]

01:20:49   strong competitors that's probably hard [TS]

01:20:52   to break into but if you look at the [TS]

01:20:53   market and say but you know what they [TS]

01:20:55   all suck in this one particular way and [TS]

01:20:57   their users either don't realize that [TS]

01:20:59   sucks in that way or don't care because [TS]

01:21:01   they learn the old system and there [TS]

01:21:02   could be people out there who are not [TS]

01:21:04   buying vector drawing applications to [TS]

01:21:05   see the existing ones they can't figure [TS]

01:21:06   out how to use them so i can make a [TS]

01:21:08   better way to draw vectors I can a get [TS]

01:21:11   customers that don't buy these other [TS]

01:21:12   applications or aren't satisfied with [TS]

01:21:14   them and be possibly become the new [TS]

01:21:17   great vector application because maybe [TS]

01:21:19   even designers want to do it this way [TS]

01:21:20   and not deal with those frustrations or [TS]

01:21:22   whatever or you just failed miserably [TS]

01:21:24   and realize that there's no competing [TS]

01:21:25   with illustrator and you know too bad [TS]

01:21:27   but I I'm heartened by efforts like this [TS]

01:21:32   because it reminds me that there is no [TS]

01:21:35   problem that is so well solve that can't [TS]

01:21:37   be solved better by someone else with a [TS]

01:21:39   better idea [TS]

01:21:40   and so I i'm looking forward to trying [TS]

01:21:42   this application and if it doesn't work [TS]

01:21:44   out or is actually worse than the old [TS]

01:21:45   one [TS]

01:21:46   oh well but i really liked seeing [TS]

01:21:48   stories like this and i really want [TS]

01:21:49   people to do more things like this [TS]

01:21:50   because as you can imagine there's not a [TS]

01:21:53   single application i use every day that [TS]

01:21:54   I don't think could be better in some [TS]

01:21:56   fundamental way is so perfect [TS]

01:21:58   that's right a you would listen that [TS]

01:22:00   show good job once or twice yeah yeah [TS]

01:22:03   yeah it's just glancing at the [TS]

01:22:05   graphics and I haven't read the article [TS]

01:22:06   looks very cool my only foray into [TS]

01:22:09   vector drawing was the world's best app [TS]

01:22:12   icon with feet [TS]

01:22:14   yes and and so i am not the one to talk [TS]

01:22:18   about this but it looks neat for sure [TS]

01:22:19   I'm s what I mess up because i don't i'm [TS]

01:22:22   not going to using the current crop of [TS]

01:22:23   vector tools but what I miss a lot is [TS]

01:22:26   briefly i believe in college got it so [TS]

01:22:29   long as i can remember it wasn't pretty [TS]

01:22:31   sure with autocad everyone will you [TS]

01:22:33   email and tell me what application was [TS]

01:22:35   but it's the one where you you can draw [TS]

01:22:36   things with the command line in addition [TS]

01:22:38   to using the mouse and stuff it's [TS]

01:22:39   probably autocad and for a brief moment [TS]

01:22:42   I got pretty good doing that and I could [TS]

01:22:45   do things with that command line and [TS]

01:22:48   what I think was autocad that I still [TS]

01:22:50   can't do with illustrator in terms of [TS]

01:22:52   connect this line to their perpendicular [TS]

01:22:54   to that intersect that with this like I [TS]

01:22:56   always have such difficulty of like I [TS]

01:22:58   just want this point to be on that line [TS]

01:23:00   and I want the angle between the two to [TS]

01:23:01   be this and I don't care if it's not on [TS]

01:23:03   a grid line and I don't care like just I [TS]

01:23:05   can describe to you what I want like in [TS]

01:23:07   immuno in this command line parlance why [TS]

01:23:10   stupid pen tool you refuse to do that [TS]

01:23:12   why do I have to click option click [TS]

01:23:14   shift click no don't start making a [TS]

01:23:15   curve no don't connect to that line know [TS]

01:23:17   now you know in AutoCAD I could always [TS]

01:23:20   get what I wanted and inform z the only [TS]

01:23:22   other thing that comes too close to that [TS]

01:23:23   form Z is an old 3d program maybe it's [TS]

01:23:26   still out there whatever I remember the [TS]

01:23:28   same thing remember eventually being [TS]

01:23:30   able to do pretty much everything that I [TS]

01:23:31   wanted in that program despite it being [TS]

01:23:33   incredibly complicated yet to this day [TS]

01:23:34   vector drawing tools defeat me because [TS]

01:23:37   they follow a set of rules that is I [TS]

01:23:38   guess I just disagree with him the [TS]

01:23:40   headphone and refuse to internalize [TS]

01:23:42   enough [TS]

01:23:44   alright thanks 143 sponsors this week [TS]

01:23:46   backblaze hover and Harry's and we'll [TS]

01:23:49   see you next week [TS]

01:23:53   now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

01:23:56   mean to begin as it was accidental [TS]

01:24:00   it was accidental [TS]

01:24:03   John any research Marco in kc would let [TS]

01:24:08   go [TS]

01:24:08   because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

01:24:14   you can find the show know today TV die [TS]

01:24:18   and if your twitter follow them [TS]

01:24:25   yes eyl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

01:24:30   co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC at [TS]

01:24:38   Syracuse [TS]

01:24:43   what [TS]

01:24:51   my Sam but the sandbox title here i'm [TS]

01:24:56   thinking of jumping the possible over as [TS]

01:24:58   many people as possible in the sandbox [TS]

01:25:00   or as many people in the sandbox is [TS]

01:25:01   possibly because even if it is it's [TS]

01:25:03   already and square space stone but I [TS]

01:25:05   don't know if the title is it accurate [TS]

01:25:07   representation of what we said I'm just [TS]

01:25:08   saying which one sounds which one sounds [TS]

01:25:10   better [TS]

01:25:11   i'm pretty sure that was the accurate [TS]

01:25:12   prediction what you said and I i think [TS]

01:25:15   it's got better as is [TS]

01:25:16   yeah agreed yes I think it's but if i [TS]

01:25:18   was writing it I would put the possible [TS]

01:25:19   first but it was a podcast that people [TS]

01:25:21   speak and i know im just looking at it [TS]

01:25:24   and thinking about the long title it's [TS]

01:25:25   got things to move around a lot [TS]

01:25:28   nothing that is so perfect know mangle [TS]

01:25:32   that their job [TS]

01:25:33   yeah oh yeah another medical yeah [TS]

01:25:36   nothing that is so what everyone yeah [TS]

01:25:39   you get the idea [TS]

01:25:40   yeah we have made this tire decided you [TS]

01:25:43   know we discovered a neutral method [TS]

01:25:44   slightly misquoting John back to himself [TS]

01:25:47   doesn't know i doing to myself are you [TS]

01:25:50   talking about one every time I listen to [TS]

01:25:54   myself on a podcast that happens making [TS]

01:25:58   you explain that when I wasn't myself I [TS]

01:26:00   hear all the things i say wrong and I'm [TS]

01:26:02   effectively trolling myself [TS]

01:26:04   ok so but it's not like you're not like [TS]

01:26:06   you're not like saying as you listen [TS]

01:26:09   along saying in your head what you said [TS]

01:26:11   differently you're just you're mad that [TS]

01:26:14   you said something that was not what you [TS]

01:26:16   think that is accurate [TS]

01:26:17   I can always here when I'm the listener [TS]

01:26:19   io here all my mistakes [TS]

01:26:21   well you should try editing the show [TS]

01:26:22   it's wrong but brutal at least you get [TS]

01:26:25   to fix them I have no control [TS]

01:26:26   well i guess i can fix some of them you [TS]

01:26:28   know yeah but you fix yours way better [TS]

01:26:29   than you fix mine [TS]

01:26:30   yeah well because I i I'm more critical [TS]

01:26:32   of myself would you say your [TS]

01:26:34   hypercritical if you ended the show we [TS]

01:26:36   would never publish a show his head so [TS]

01:26:38   don't know that I've never I've never [TS]

01:26:40   added anything have no idea what kind of [TS]

01:26:41   editor i would be a critical one [TS]

01:26:43   probably the same thing I would fix [TS]

01:26:45   everything that I said leave everyone [TS]

01:26:46   else is that sound dumped you for me [TS]

01:26:51   your your part of the show is the [TS]

01:26:52   easiest to edit because you talk for [TS]

01:26:56   long spans mostly uninterruptedly and [TS]

01:26:59   they very rarely require any alterations [TS]

01:27:01   so mostly most of what you say just skip [TS]

01:27:03   over like I just skin [TS]

01:27:05   it for like whiter than usual gaps and [TS]

01:27:07   shrink those but for the most part i [TS]

01:27:09   don't i don't even listen to what you [TS]

01:27:11   say on the editors I heard during the [TS]

01:27:12   show I know it's fine i listened to it [TS]

01:27:14   and I make mistakes anyway it's fine [TS]

01:27:16   part of the process you getting you [TS]

01:27:19   getting the real John in the edit the [TS]

01:27:21   raw you brought uncut siracusa circus [TS]

01:27:25   man you're finally managed to be fine [TS]

01:27:29   and everything's you get inside your own [TS]

01:27:30   head of the rated acusa I don't know [TS]

01:27:32   yeah siracusa you're fine yeah fine i [TS]

01:27:39   know you're talking about refer back to [TS]

01:27:41   the hypercritical episode where I [TS]

01:27:43   discussed the primary purpose of speech [TS]

01:27:46   or writing is to communicate an idea and [TS]

01:27:49   if I basically if I know you're talking [TS]

01:27:51   about your successfully communicated [TS]

01:27:52   that idea [TS]