ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Oh, oh, oh, one last thing. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

00:00:02 ◼   ► If you are a Tweetbot or Twitterific person,

00:00:04 ◼   ► we should put this on the show.

00:00:05 ◼   ► I didn't even think about this.

00:00:06 ◼   ► - Oh, that's too late, yeah.

00:00:07 ◼   ► I'm sure you talked about it on the talk show.

00:00:08 ◼   ► - No, we didn't. - Well, either way.

00:00:09 ◼   ► - No, you should have. - Either way.

00:00:10 ◼   ► - Well, I don't think it was out yet.

00:00:12 ◼   ► - It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

00:00:13 ◼   ► All right, the point is,

00:00:14 ◼   ► if you are a Tweetbot or Twitterific person

00:00:17 ◼   ► who had a subscription, go and redownload the app.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Not kidding. Go to the App Store, redownload the app,

00:00:23 ◼   ► and then it'll ask you,

00:00:25 ◼   ► do you want a prorated refund in the case of Tweetbot?

00:00:28 ◼   ► Do you want to push that over to ivory or do you want to say I'm good. Don't worry about it for all of us

00:00:34 ◼   ► I reckon we can afford to say yeah, I'm good. You could I think do the ivory thing

00:00:39 ◼   ► but you know what I already subscribed to ivory and I still said I'm good because

00:00:43 ◼   ► It's a few bucks of my money. It's not that much money for me, but in aggregate that's a metric load for tapots

00:00:51 ◼   ► So and same thing for icon factory

00:00:54 ◼   ► So if you have even just a handful of dollars

00:00:58 ◼   ► that you can spare, why don't you say no refund please?

00:01:01 ◼   ► It would really mean a lot to them.

00:01:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause here's the thing.

00:01:04 ◼   ► If you don't go reinstall Tweetbot and Twitterific

00:01:07 ◼   ► and opt out of the refund, the default will be

00:01:11 ◼   ► that they're going to have this money taken

00:01:13 ◼   ► out of their bank accounts that's gonna be taken by them

00:01:17 ◼   ► and refunded to customers for whatever time

00:01:19 ◼   ► was left on their subscriptions.

00:01:21 ◼   ► because Twitter blew up.

00:01:24 ◼   ► So this is potentially a huge negative pull of money

00:01:29 ◼   ► out of these companies.

00:01:30 ◼   ► I mean, this could bankrupt people.

00:01:32 ◼   ► This is not a good scene.

00:01:34 ◼   ► And so if you can opt out of getting this refund,

00:01:38 ◼   ► please do so.

00:01:39 ◼   ► So go install Tweetbot or Twitterific again.

00:01:42 ◼   ► You might have deleted it already.

00:01:43 ◼   ► Go install it again.

00:01:45 ◼   ► Each one of them opens up to a similar screen

00:01:47 ◼   ► and just says, hey, here's the deal.

00:01:49 ◼   ► What do you wanna do?

00:01:50 ◼   ► If you do nothing, you will get a prorated refund

00:01:53 ◼   ► for any unused time on that subscription

00:01:55 ◼   ► that will come from the developers.

00:01:57 ◼   ► If you opt out, they will lose less money.

00:02:01 ◼   ► So please, go install these apps again

00:02:04 ◼   ► and opt out of those refunds if you can.

00:02:06 ◼   ► - I never uninstall it.

00:02:07 ◼   ► I actually put Twitter into my phone's dock,

00:02:09 ◼   ► which is an area that I don't use,

00:02:10 ◼   ► so it's just a little museum.

00:02:12 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:02:13 ◼   ► That little icon.

00:02:14 ◼   ► - How do you not use, like, it's--

00:02:16 ◼   ► - I know, seriously. - I don't find it

00:02:17 ◼   ► an easy place to reach.

00:02:18 ◼   ► It's the easiest place to reach.

00:02:20 ◼   ► - I don't think so.

00:02:21 ◼   ► The way I hold my phone, I find that incredibly awkward.

00:02:23 ◼   ► I've never put anything that I used in the dock,

00:02:25 ◼   ► which is, you know, whatever, kind of a shame.

00:02:26 ◼   ► It's always visible, but I just, I can't reach there easily.

00:02:29 ◼   ► - Are you like a center grip person,

00:02:31 ◼   ► not like a lower grip person?

00:02:32 ◼   ► - I guess so.

00:02:33 ◼   ► I mean, but I find it, I can't reach that.

00:02:36 ◼   ► I guess my grip is just up too high.

00:02:38 ◼   ► Anyway, I put Twitter effect in there,

00:02:40 ◼   ► 'cause I just wanted to, you know, it's a place of honor,

00:02:42 ◼   ► and I just wanted to continue to see the icon, right?

00:02:44 ◼   ► I replaced it with ivory on my actual--

00:02:46 ◼   ► - It is a really nice icon.

00:02:47 ◼   ► - On my home screen.

00:02:48 ◼   ► I have a set to a different, a slightly different than,

00:02:50 ◼   ► you know, it's a customizable, anyway.

00:02:52 ◼   ► But then when they came out with this thing,

00:02:53 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go do it and say

00:02:55 ◼   ► I don't need a refund.

00:02:56 ◼   ► And then I realized I don't have a subscription

00:02:58 ◼   ► because I'm on the beta, and the beta is just like

00:03:00 ◼   ► perpetually subscribed, you know what I mean?

00:03:02 ◼   ► But that didn't feel too bad because I think I paid

00:03:03 ◼   ► like $150 for Twitter for Mac, so when they had

00:03:06 ◼   ► the Kickstarter, so I'm good.

00:03:08 ◼   ► And I subscribed to icon factory's Patreon,

00:03:10 ◼   ► which you should do as well.

00:03:11 ◼   ► (electronic beeping)

00:03:12 ◼   ► - Let me ask you, Jon, what you doing

00:03:15 ◼   ► in your living room these days?

00:03:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I had to find something to occupy my time

00:03:20 ◼   ► while I was trapped in a room with COVID.

00:03:23 ◼   ► I'm happy to say that today was the first day

00:03:25 ◼   ► since becoming infected that I tested negative.

00:03:28 ◼   ► Despite testing very, very barely positive

00:03:31 ◼   ► for like three days in a row,

00:03:32 ◼   ► today was absolutely 100% negative.

00:03:34 ◼   ► I'm zooming in on that picture.

00:03:35 ◼   ► I'm like, is there anything there?

00:03:36 ◼   ► Yep, nope, I'm 100% negative.

00:03:38 ◼   ► - I always like shine my phone flashlight on it,

00:03:40 ◼   ► like different angles, like can I see it at all?

00:03:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I'm well and truly negative today, that's great.

00:03:46 ◼   ► Hopefully I'll be negative tomorrow.

00:03:48 ◼   ► I'm still testing a little bit

00:03:50 ◼   ► 'cause you gotta have multiple tests.

00:03:50 ◼   ► Anyway, watch him for that whole rebound thing.

00:03:53 ◼   ► We'll see how it goes.

00:03:53 ◼   ► But I needed something to do with my time.

00:03:55 ◼   ► And I did watch a bunch of movies

00:03:57 ◼   ► and a little bit of TV and a lot of YouTube,

00:03:59 ◼   ► but I needed something to do that was interesting.

00:04:02 ◼   ► And I was already in the midst of, I don't know,

00:04:05 ◼   ► thinking about this project.

00:04:08 ◼   ► I don't know how it happened.

00:04:09 ◼   ► Anyway, this project went into high gear

00:04:11 ◼   ► 'cause I had nothing else to do.

00:04:12 ◼   ► And this project is to upgrade my sound system.

00:04:14 ◼   ► I know we've been talking about that on the show a lot,

00:04:17 ◼   ► and that's probably why it's been in the front of my mind.

00:04:19 ◼   ► I recently got a fancy new TV,

00:04:21 ◼   ► and with that I got a fancy new receiver

00:04:23 ◼   ► to connect to the TV,

00:04:25 ◼   ► and I got a fancy new Blu-ray player,

00:04:27 ◼   ► but one thing I didn't upgrade was my 5.1 speaker system,

00:04:30 ◼   ► which, you know, was cheap and old,

00:04:34 ◼   ► but well-reviewed when I got it.

00:04:35 ◼   ► It was like, I didn't even know if I wanted a 5.1,

00:04:37 ◼   ► so I'm like, I'm not gonna spend a ton of money.

00:04:39 ◼   ► Let me just get the, you know, best-reviewed,

00:04:42 ◼   ► tiny, inexpensive thing.

00:04:44 ◼   ► This was many, many, many years ago.

00:04:45 ◼   ► And so I've had that and it's fine,

00:04:48 ◼   ► but I have upgraded the rest of my system.

00:04:49 ◼   ► And now that part of it definitely looks like the weak link.

00:04:52 ◼   ► And so I've been looking for months now into

00:04:55 ◼   ► what could I possibly upgrade to that is nicer than this?

00:04:59 ◼   ► So that's what I did during my COVID time.

00:05:01 ◼   ► And it's trapped in my room for days and days on end

00:05:03 ◼   ► as I just looked on YouTube and read articles

00:05:06 ◼   ► and waded through audio file forums.

00:05:09 ◼   ► Those are always fun, right?

00:05:11 ◼   ► - No, no thank you.

00:05:11 ◼   ► - The whole nine yards just going everywhere,

00:05:14 ◼   ► trying to figure out for my weird test case.

00:05:16 ◼   ► I'll put a link in the show notes too.

00:05:17 ◼   ► I even talked about it on Mastodon

00:05:19 ◼   ► to see if anyone had any particular advice

00:05:22 ◼   ► or suggestions about my weird situation.

00:05:24 ◼   ► Unlike my television shopping,

00:05:26 ◼   ► I feel like my speaker shopping is not applicable

00:05:28 ◼   ► to most people because it's so specific to my room,

00:05:32 ◼   ► my house, my scenario, my limitations.

00:05:35 ◼   ► Whereas my TV is just like,

00:05:36 ◼   ► other than a size that fits in my thing,

00:05:38 ◼   ► it's just a big flat panel.

00:05:39 ◼   ► It's a good tea for everybody.

00:05:41 ◼   ► Speakers that I ended up getting,

00:05:42 ◼   ► probably not the best choice for everybody.

00:05:44 ◼   ► I don't even know if they're the right choice for me,

00:05:46 ◼   ► but things are on my way.

00:05:47 ◼   ► And so in a future episode of the show,

00:05:49 ◼   ► once everything has arrived and I've set it up,

00:05:51 ◼   ► I'll give the details and go through my whole process.

00:05:54 ◼   ► But for now, I just wanted to chime in and say,

00:05:56 ◼   ► I'm COVID-negative, yay.

00:05:57 ◼   ► And I spent all my time reading speaker reviews.

00:06:00 ◼   ► - That sounds fun.

00:06:02 ◼   ► I mean, whatever makes you happy, man, but.

00:06:04 ◼   ► - It did, it was surprisingly fun,

00:06:06 ◼   ► although also incredibly frustrating.

00:06:09 ◼   ► And again, half of that's on me.

00:06:10 ◼   ► See the Mastodon thread to see what I'm dealing with here.

00:06:13 ◼   ► - I feel like reading about speaker reviews,

00:06:16 ◼   ► I don't know, that's the--

00:06:18 ◼   ► - It's not easy, yeah, you're absolutely right.

00:06:20 ◼   ► And it's so much worse than TVs, let me tell you.

00:06:23 ◼   ► Because TVs, it's like almost everybody agrees

00:06:26 ◼   ► on what the objective measures are.

00:06:28 ◼   ► There are international standards,

00:06:29 ◼   ► there's equipment that will test compliance

00:06:32 ◼   ► with the standards, whereas speakers,

00:06:34 ◼   ► boy, it's rough out there.

00:06:36 ◼   ► Just, it's on the one end, you have people

00:06:38 ◼   ► who are writing poetry, it's like, okay,

00:06:40 ◼   ► this does not help me.

00:06:41 ◼   ► And the other end, you have people who are like,

00:06:43 ◼   ► taking objective measures,

00:06:44 ◼   ► but there's no sort of standardization on the,

00:06:47 ◼   ► like what tools you're using,

00:06:49 ◼   ► and does the thing that you're measuring matter at all

00:06:51 ◼   ► to the experience of having the speaker?

00:06:53 ◼   ► It's rough.

00:06:54 ◼   ► But you know, more on that when I get this all set up.

00:06:57 ◼   ► 'Cause then I'll be able to tell you

00:06:58 ◼   ► if all that BS that I read ended up being helpful

00:07:00 ◼   ► or not helpful at all.

00:07:01 ◼   ► - I'm not trying to be funny, I'm genuinely asking,

00:07:06 ◼   ► Are you looking to stick with 5.1?

00:07:09 ◼   ► Are you trying to go full Atmos?

00:07:11 ◼   ► Is that really something that's--

00:07:12 ◼   ► - Did you see the thread on Mastodon?

00:07:13 ◼   ► - I saw that--

00:07:14 ◼   ► - Do you think I have room for more speakers?

00:07:16 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:07:17 ◼   ► - Oh well.

00:07:18 ◼   ► - I, the challenge I put to people that says,

00:07:20 ◼   ► where do you think 5.1 speakers should go in this room?

00:07:23 ◼   ► And nobody even ventured to guess,

00:07:25 ◼   ► like maybe one or two people, 'cause it's grim.

00:07:27 ◼   ► No, I do not have room for more speakers.

00:07:29 ◼   ► I have thought about where I could fit one or two more,

00:07:32 ◼   ► whether those be quote unquote height speakers,

00:07:34 ◼   ► or whether I would do side channels,

00:07:36 ◼   ► But for now, the problem was 5.1.

00:07:38 ◼   ► Replace an existing 5.1 with a better sounding 5.1.

00:07:42 ◼   ► So that's what I've gone with.

00:07:42 ◼   ► I have the capacity for more at any time,

00:07:44 ◼   ► but for now, that's what I'm sticking with.

00:07:47 ◼   ► - I don't think this is really on the table

00:07:49 ◼   ► for reasons beyond your control,

00:07:51 ◼   ► but are you willing to rearrange the room,

00:07:54 ◼   ► like the furniture within the room?

00:07:55 ◼   ► - No, I mean, I didn't want to go into that.

00:07:57 ◼   ► I masked it up, but room rearrangement,

00:08:00 ◼   ► we went through all the permutations for room rearrangement

00:08:03 ◼   ► like 20 years ago when we moved in.

00:08:04 ◼   ► This is it.

00:08:05 ◼   ► This is the room.

00:08:06 ◼   ► And honestly, I don't think many rearrangements make things

00:08:09 ◼   ► better except for the one where you block

00:08:10 ◼   ► the fireplace with the couch.

00:08:11 ◼   ► And that's not going to happen.

00:08:12 ◼   ► Well, alternatively, you could put the TV over the fireplace.

00:08:15 ◼   ► Yeah, as you know, that's not going to happen as well.

00:08:17 ◼   ► Do you use the fireplace?

00:08:19 ◼   ► No.

00:08:20 ◼   ► Have you thought about removing it?

00:08:23 ◼   ► People said that.

00:08:24 ◼   ► That's insane.

00:08:25 ◼   ► No, I'm not going to--

00:08:26 ◼   ► I guess the anti-fireplace lobby is big.

00:08:29 ◼   ► So I get back in the fireplace.

00:08:31 ◼   ► The fireplace is literally the best feature

00:08:33 ◼   ► of my crappy house.

00:08:34 ◼   ► I'm not getting, quote unquote, get rid of the fire.

00:08:37 ◼   ► It's a nice looking thing, it's a centerpiece.

00:08:40 ◼   ► If I would destroy the value of my home

00:08:41 ◼   ► if I got rid of it, then I like it.

00:08:43 ◼   ► I like it being there, I like looking at it.

00:08:45 ◼   ► Yet no, I don't let a fire in it.

00:08:46 ◼   ► - First of all, you have an old home

00:08:49 ◼   ► in a nice neighborhood in New England,

00:08:50 ◼   ► nothing will destroy the value of that home.

00:08:51 ◼   ► - No, you know what I mean.

00:08:53 ◼   ► It would reduce the value.

00:08:55 ◼   ► People wouldn't, and ours is a good fireplace.

00:08:57 ◼   ► It's not like one of those ones

00:08:58 ◼   ► where the people paint it over the brick.

00:08:59 ◼   ► Have you seen those?

00:08:59 ◼   ► Like at some point, someone got a hangover in the '60s

00:09:02 ◼   ► and they repaint it over the brick, so bad.

00:09:04 ◼   ► No, this is a good fireplace.

00:09:07 ◼   ► It is, you know, I have all of our family's pictures

00:09:10 ◼   ► are over it, if you remember when you were here, right?

00:09:12 ◼   ► There's the big mantle, which needs to be repainted

00:09:14 ◼   ► like everything else in my house.

00:09:15 ◼   ► But anyway, it's a very nice mantle.

00:09:17 ◼   ► It's got all our family pictures on the wall above it,

00:09:18 ◼   ► and it's a nice fireplace.

00:09:20 ◼   ► And I thought it's gonna be a big house seller

00:09:23 ◼   ► when it comes time to sell it.

00:09:24 ◼   ► And in the meantime, I like it looking like that.

00:09:26 ◼   ► So no, I'm not getting rid of the fireplace.

00:09:28 ◼   ► No, I'm not putting my TV over the fireplace.

00:09:30 ◼   ► No, I'm not putting one of those giant mechanical mounts.

00:09:32 ◼   ► We put the T-bar with the fireplace and it lowers down.

00:09:34 ◼   ► - That was my next question.

00:09:34 ◼   ► - Right, because then they would be

00:09:36 ◼   ► in the way of the pictures

00:09:37 ◼   ► and there'd be this big ugly mount.

00:09:38 ◼   ► All of those are out.

00:09:39 ◼   ► Luckily people, you know, didn't,

00:09:40 ◼   ► mostly took me at my word and said,

00:09:42 ◼   ► "Here's the room, no, this is what we've got to deal with."

00:09:44 ◼   ► But none of those things are happening.

00:09:46 ◼   ► So it's just a matter of working stuff.

00:09:48 ◼   ► And honestly, I wouldn't want them to,

00:09:49 ◼   ► because it's not a home theater room.

00:09:50 ◼   ► This is like the main living room of our house.

00:09:52 ◼   ► It needs to function first and foremost

00:09:54 ◼   ► as a room where people can exist

00:09:56 ◼   ► and, you know, have nice places to sit

00:09:59 ◼   ► and just hang out and they're just looking at their phones

00:10:02 ◼   ► or playing with the dog or reading or yes, watching TV,

00:10:05 ◼   ► but it is not a home theater room.

00:10:06 ◼   ► So it's not like let's rearrange the entire room

00:10:08 ◼   ► and brick over the fireplace and, you know,

00:10:11 ◼   ► take all your family photos off the wall

00:10:12 ◼   ► and put on a giant mechanical arm to put the TV,

00:10:15 ◼   ► no, that's not happening.

00:10:16 ◼   ► That's not what this room is for.

00:10:17 ◼   ► And that's why it's a challenge to come up with something

00:10:20 ◼   ► that is acceptable to everyone involved

00:10:22 ◼   ► within the draconian constraints of a 1930s house.

00:10:27 ◼   ► You should just, just move, man.

00:10:29 ◼   ► - Just remove the fireplace.

00:10:31 ◼   ► It's not hard to remove fireplaces, right?

00:10:33 ◼   ► You can just remove them.

00:10:35 ◼   ► - I would say just in general,

00:10:36 ◼   ► it might be healthy to think about the house

00:10:40 ◼   ► that you are spending the majority of your adult life in,

00:10:43 ◼   ► not as something you have to preserve

00:10:45 ◼   ► for whoever's buying it next,

00:10:47 ◼   ► but instead something that you should optimize

00:10:48 ◼   ► for the way you actually wanna live in it.

00:10:50 ◼   ► - Like I said, I like the fireplace too.

00:10:52 ◼   ► I like looking at it, I like how decorative it is.

00:10:54 ◼   ► It feels cozy, the whole room.

00:10:56 ◼   ► I even like the cruddy wallpaper

00:10:57 ◼   ► that everyone in my Hamlet family hates in that room

00:10:59 ◼   ► because I think it is cozy and comfy

00:11:01 ◼   ► and it is a comfortable room to be in.

00:11:03 ◼   ► I don't want it to,

00:11:04 ◼   ► I don't want that part of the room to change.

00:11:07 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

00:11:08 ◼   ► Hey man, it's your house, it's your rules.

00:11:10 ◼   ► I totally hear you.

00:11:11 ◼   ► I'm gonna give you a hard time about it forever

00:11:13 ◼   ► because that's what we do here,

00:11:14 ◼   ► but your house, your rules.

00:11:16 ◼   ► - And it presents an interesting challenge,

00:11:17 ◼   ► whether it's to the fancy Sony HT9,

00:11:20 ◼   ► which we're gonna talk about in a second,

00:11:21 ◼   ► or for a plain old 5.1 system

00:11:23 ◼   ► with a fancy room correction on the receiver

00:11:26 ◼   ► to come up with something that works okay

00:11:29 ◼   ► in that environment.

00:11:29 ◼   ► Not impossible, but tricky.

00:11:32 ◼   ► - Tricky indeed.

00:11:33 ◼   ► But that HTA-9, baby, I'm sure that'll fix your problems.

00:11:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, I just wanted one more bit of feedback from MCG,

00:11:40 ◼   ► another owner of the system.

00:11:42 ◼   ► They say, "I have the HTA-9 with the big sub

00:11:45 ◼   ► and can confirm that it's absolutely fantastic for movies

00:11:48 ◼   ► and no complaints when we use it for TV shows.

00:11:50 ◼   ► It is at its weakest for stereo music,

00:11:52 ◼   ► but tracks in Apple Music with Atmos are great.

00:11:54 ◼   ► As far as the complaints around dropouts,

00:11:55 ◼   ► I had some initially,

00:11:57 ◼   ► but the firmware updates have improved things.

00:11:58 ◼   ► I don't remember the last time it happened

00:12:00 ◼   ► and I have an era router right next to it.

00:12:01 ◼   ► Highly recommend these.

00:12:02 ◼   ► So that's the magic of software powered hardware.

00:12:06 ◼   ► There's always the hope that a quote unquote

00:12:07 ◼   ► firmware update will fix your problems.

00:12:09 ◼   ► And apparently, at least in the case of MCG, this happened.

00:12:12 ◼   ► So that's kind of the three stories

00:12:16 ◼   ► and three individual people.

00:12:17 ◼   ► One saying, you got to warn people off from this.

00:12:19 ◼   ► One saying, I've got it.

00:12:20 ◼   ► And sometimes it drops out, but mostly it's okay.

00:12:22 ◼   ► and one's saying, "I got it and it was bad,

00:12:23 ◼   ► "but now it's updated."

00:12:24 ◼   ► I don't know what the truth is, but there you have it.

00:12:27 ◼   ► The good thing is that all of them say,

00:12:29 ◼   ► "For its intended purpose of movies and TV

00:12:31 ◼   ► "with fake surround sound with speakers all over your room,

00:12:34 ◼   ► "it seems to work really well when it's working."

00:12:38 ◼   ► - When it's working.

00:12:39 ◼   ► We have a very deep cut,

00:12:41 ◼   ► and I promise I'm going somewhere with this.

00:12:42 ◼   ► Way in the beginning of the show, if you remember,

00:12:45 ◼   ► I don't recall which came first, to be honest with you,

00:12:47 ◼   ► but we had the Jonathan Mann theme song that you still hear,

00:12:50 ◼   ► And we also had the Who the Hell is Casey song.

00:12:54 ◼   ► ♪ Casey ♪

00:12:56 ◼   ► ♪ Who the hell is Casey ♪

00:12:57 ◼   ► ♪ Who the hell is Casey ♪

00:12:58 ◼   ► ♪ Who the hell is Casey ♪

00:13:00 ◼   ► Which was written by an actual real life friend of mine

00:13:03 ◼   ► whose name is Larry King.

00:13:05 ◼   ► Not the one you're thinking of, a different Larry King.

00:13:07 ◼   ► Well, this is relevant to you because his band,

00:13:10 ◼   ► he is in a blues band just for funsies.

00:13:12 ◼   ► You know, these people all have real jobs

00:13:14 ◼   ► and so on and so forth.

00:13:14 ◼   ► Not that being in a band isn't a real job,

00:13:16 ◼   ► you know what I'm saying, oh my gosh.

00:13:17 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:13:18 ◼   ► - We're podcasters for a living.

00:13:20 ◼   ► - Exactly, of anyone who should be throwing stones

00:13:23 ◼   ► on not having a real job, I am the last one on that list.

00:13:26 ◼   ► But anyway, he and his band did a parody of,

00:13:31 ◼   ► I forget the name of the original song,

00:13:33 ◼   ► but it's some like kinda,

00:13:36 ◼   ► almost honky-tonky kinda song, bluesy kinda song.

00:13:40 ◼   ► It was funny, the original was fine,

00:13:42 ◼   ► but they did it in the parodies Hot Rod Rivian.

00:13:46 ◼   ► And so the entire band did their music video for this song

00:13:50 ◼   ► playing in a field somewhere with all of the equipment being powered by an R1T. You know,

00:13:55 ◼   ► just plugged into the back of the R1T, into the AC outlets. So my buddy Larry King writes,

00:13:59 ◼   ► "Our sax player has a Rivian. We recorded this all while plugged into the Rivian. About

00:14:03 ◼   ► three hours of playing took about 3% of the battery. His tuba fits in the frunk. The video

00:14:08 ◼   ► was cheesy. I had nothing to do with the editing, but I did engineer all the audio." This is

00:14:12 ◼   ► worth, even if it's just a few seconds of your time, it is worth it because I thought

00:14:16 ◼   ► it was very well done and it gave me quite a good laugh. And my friend Larry King, who is the guitarist,

00:14:21 ◼   ► is the one standing on the gear tunnel door, which I thought was also quite funny. So it is absolutely

00:14:27 ◼   ► not required viewing, but it made me laugh. And like I said, this is a deep, deep cut back to Who

00:14:31 ◼   ► the Hell is Casey from way back when. We'll link all of these things in the show notes.

00:14:35 ◼   ► I would also point out that if you're picturing a tuba, you are probably actually picturing a

00:14:39 ◼   ► sousaphone. If you're picturing the giant thing with the giant belt that goes over the person's

00:14:44 ◼   ► head as they stand and walk with it, that is a sousaphone, not a tuba. That would

00:14:49 ◼   ► not fit in a Rivian frunk. An actual tuba that was played in

00:14:54 ◼   ► orchestras is a very differently shaped instrument, and it's good to hear that it

00:14:58 ◼   ► fits in the trunk, but that is less surprising than you might be

00:15:01 ◼   ► thinking if you don't know the difference between a tuba and a sousaphone.

00:15:03 ◼   ► Thank you, this has been Marching Band Trivia. You took my joke! I was just gonna

00:15:07 ◼   ► say, tell me you were in marching band without telling me you were in marching band.

00:15:12 ◼   ► Alright, I would like to briefly defend my honor, or at least attempt to.

00:15:15 ◼   ► The whole of the internet has written to me to explain to me that because I don't want yellow,

00:15:21 ◼   ► I am part of the problem, and that fun colors can be fun.

00:15:26 ◼   ► Yes, fun colors can be fun.

00:15:29 ◼   ► But there are fun colors, and then there is yellow.

00:15:32 ◼   ► There are other fun colors.

00:15:33 ◼   ► Orange can work. Purple, when done properly, can work on a car.

00:15:37 ◼   ► Yellow cannot. And that is the rules. I don't make the rules. It's just the way it is.

00:15:41 ◼   ► But my point is just that just because I don't like yellow

00:15:43 ◼   ► Well first of all doesn't mean that you can't as much as I joke

00:15:46 ◼   ► But secondly there are plenty of other colorful things my car is now blue

00:15:50 ◼   ► Let's not forget it didn't happen to me this time the white didn't happen to me this time

00:15:54 ◼   ► Your car is not a fun blue though. Oh

00:15:56 ◼   ► Pish posh it's a fine blue. I don't dislike it, but it was no one would look at that color blue and say boy

00:16:02 ◼   ► That's a fun blue. They would just say oh, it's blue. Yeah fun blues have to be lighter. Yeah, all right all right

00:16:07 ◼   ► - All right, I'll allow it, I'll allow it.

00:16:08 ◼   ► - Or like fun in some other way, like, you know,

00:16:10 ◼   ► pearlescent, sparkly, or, you know,

00:16:12 ◼   ► turn purple in different angles of light.

00:16:14 ◼   ► There's lots of things you can do that are fun.

00:16:15 ◼   ► - All right.

00:16:16 ◼   ► - Your blue is just blue.

00:16:17 ◼   ► It's a very nice blue.

00:16:18 ◼   ► It's a handsome blue.

00:16:19 ◼   ► - Well, all right, I will allow it.

00:16:20 ◼   ► But my point is just that, please, internet,

00:16:22 ◼   ► just because I don't like yellow

00:16:24 ◼   ► doesn't mean I don't like fun colors.

00:16:25 ◼   ► I mean--

00:16:26 ◼   ► - Yellow is one of the most fun colors, though.

00:16:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, objectively.

00:16:29 ◼   ► - There are other fun colors that you like,

00:16:31 ◼   ► but it's almost like you dislike the funnest

00:16:33 ◼   ► to use Apple's parlance.

00:16:35 ◼   ► dislike the funnest of fun colors. What's more fun than yellow? Maybe purple? I don't

00:16:41 ◼   ► know.

00:16:42 ◼   ► You've mispronounced ugly many, many times. You're pronouncing it as fun, but it's actually

00:16:45 ◼   ► pronounced ugly.

00:16:47 ◼   ► American market cars—I don't know the rest of the world, I think it's probably the same—but

00:16:51 ◼   ► American market cars are all available in black, white, silver, gray, dark gray, light

00:16:57 ◼   ► gray, metallic gray, differently gray, slightly bluish gray, slightly greenish gray, slightly

00:17:02 ◼   ► reddish gray, there's a million different grays,

00:17:04 ◼   ► whites, and blacks.

00:17:05 ◼   ► - So true.

00:17:06 ◼   ► - And then you're lucky if maybe there's like a red

00:17:09 ◼   ► or a blue, and then that's it.

00:17:11 ◼   ► There's like almost every car is available

00:17:13 ◼   ► in that selection.

00:17:14 ◼   ► A whole bunch of grays, whites, and blacks,

00:17:16 ◼   ► and maybe red and/or blue, and that's it.

00:17:18 ◼   ► - Or if you're willing to pay $200,000 or more for a car,

00:17:21 ◼   ► you can get really cool colors.

00:17:22 ◼   ► - Right.

00:17:23 ◼   ► - Each of which is a $10,000 extra.

00:17:25 ◼   ► - Right, but the point is like,

00:17:26 ◼   ► I have the opportunity here to get a fun color,

00:17:31 ◼   ► And most cars don't offer that opportunity.

00:17:34 ◼   ► Even my Land Rover is--

00:17:36 ◼   ► I have the Tasman Blue color, which is, I think,

00:17:41 ◼   ► the only remotely fun color Land Rover offers.

00:17:44 ◼   ► It's really conservative, though.

00:17:46 ◼   ► It's very close to a gray blue, if there was such a thing.

00:17:51 ◼   ► It's a very restrained blue.

00:17:53 ◼   ► And it's a very nice color.

00:17:54 ◼   ► I think it's by far the nicest color

00:17:56 ◼   ► that the Defender is available in.

00:17:57 ◼   ► But it is very restrained.

00:17:59 ◼   ► Rivian Yellow, by all accounts and by all

00:18:01 ◼   ► the videos I'm trying to watch about how it looks in real life actually looks fun.

00:18:05 ◼   ► And the Rivian Blue is pretty fun too. I think the yellow is more fun. And then Rivian's

00:18:11 ◼   ► also available in all those boring colors. I don't want to be boring. I want to, like,

00:18:15 ◼   ► you know, how often in life do you buy cars? It's not that often.

00:18:19 ◼   ► Well, I mean, I can hear you, it seems like a lot pretty often.

00:18:23 ◼   ► Well, exactly. Well, but yeah. But, you know, for the most

00:18:25 ◼   ► part, this is a relatively infrequent big purchase. I like to mix it up sometimes. I

00:18:29 ◼   ► I like to have more color in my life recently,

00:18:31 ◼   ► and this is the way to do it.

00:18:34 ◼   ► - You know, and as I said to you in the post show,

00:18:36 ◼   ► and I think the bootleg might have still been running,

00:18:38 ◼   ► I don't recall, but it was certainly not

00:18:40 ◼   ► in the release show, I did feel a little guilty

00:18:42 ◼   ► for pooping all over your yellow idea,

00:18:45 ◼   ► because just because it doesn't work for me

00:18:46 ◼   ► doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

00:18:48 ◼   ► It is very much not my thing, but if, you know what,

00:18:52 ◼   ► if it's your thing, that's okay, so you do you.

00:18:54 ◼   ► - I still feel like Rivian should be sued

00:18:55 ◼   ► for their picture on their website,

00:18:56 ◼   ► which looks nothing like any of the photos

00:18:58 ◼   ► of this thing in real life, almost still to the point

00:19:01 ◼   ► that I have a trouble believing they're trying to say

00:19:02 ◼   ► it's the same color that all those owner's pictures are,

00:19:04 ◼   ► but boy, those pictures on the website,

00:19:06 ◼   ► they're worse than Apple, 'cause sometimes Apple's photos

00:19:08 ◼   ► of their subtly brown or subtly rose-colored things

00:19:11 ◼   ► are different than in real life, but that car picture

00:19:15 ◼   ► is nothing like the car in the photos that people take,

00:19:18 ◼   ► so I feel like if anyone buys based on the website picture

00:19:21 ◼   ► and then their car shows up and it's like big bird yellow

00:19:24 ◼   ► and they thought it was gonna look like the website,

00:19:25 ◼   ► I feel bad for them.

00:19:26 ◼   ► They can sell their car to Marco.

00:19:28 ◼   ► - It's also worth pointing out that yellow

00:19:30 ◼   ► is Rivian's accent color.

00:19:32 ◼   ► So no matter what color you get a Rivian in,

00:19:34 ◼   ► there is little yellow bits all over the place,

00:19:36 ◼   ► and so it makes sense to go with a color

00:19:39 ◼   ► that works really well with that.

00:19:41 ◼   ► - That is an annoyingly good argument.

00:19:43 ◼   ► - Right, and I think the second best color

00:19:46 ◼   ► they have overall is the blue,

00:19:48 ◼   ► but I don't think the blue works as well

00:19:50 ◼   ► with the yellow as I would like.

00:19:52 ◼   ► It works okay.

00:19:53 ◼   ► - I think the green looks better than the blue

00:19:55 ◼   ► 'cause it's very foresty.

00:19:56 ◼   ► Honestly, I think the one that looks the nicest,

00:19:59 ◼   ► second to the yellow, is one of the grays.

00:20:02 ◼   ► They have one of the grays that I saw in a review video

00:20:05 ◼   ► that actually looked very nice with the yellow accents,

00:20:07 ◼   ► but it was too boring for me, so I'm going yellow.

00:20:09 ◼   ► - Right.

00:20:10 ◼   ► Adam One has some feedback and clarifications on iMazing,

00:20:15 ◼   ► which I believe we were talking about

00:20:16 ◼   ► with regard to backing up iMessage stuff.

00:20:18 ◼   ► Adam writes, "iMazing doesn't jailbreak the phone.

00:20:20 ◼   ► "It uses a backup file made saved

00:20:22 ◼   ► "to the local file system of a Mac

00:20:24 ◼   ► to extract the data to export.

00:20:27 ◼   ► The software lives entirely on a Mac.

00:20:29 ◼   ► There are no hooks into the iPhone itself.

00:20:30 ◼   ► Amazing is super handy for local backups, too,

00:20:32 ◼   ► if you don't want to use iCloud.

00:20:34 ◼   ► It works over Wi-Fi and USB.

00:20:36 ◼   ► You can also customer-store phones

00:20:37 ◼   ► to only have some of the data from a backup file.

00:20:40 ◼   ► It was handy when I wanted to customer-store to my new iPhone

00:20:43 ◼   ► and pull over all my iMessage history,

00:20:45 ◼   ► which is not synced via iCloud, to my --

00:20:47 ◼   ► you know, atoms isn't --

00:20:49 ◼   ► to my new phone while leaving all the cruft

00:20:50 ◼   ► from my old phone.

00:20:52 ◼   ► That allowed me to have the best of both worlds,

00:20:54 ◼   ► a fresh install and the benefit of a specific long-term data that I cared about."

00:20:58 ◼   ► I think that's actually a really clever idea, to be honest with you, because I'm still carrying

00:21:01 ◼   ► my original 3GS build of memory serves from way back when.

00:21:05 ◼   ► And most of the reason I haven't started afresh is because I didn't want to lose all that

00:21:10 ◼   ► iMessage history, because I also have not turned on iMessage in the cloud or whatever

00:21:13 ◼   ► they're calling it.

00:21:14 ◼   ► So that's a very clever idea.

00:21:15 ◼   ► Anyway, Adam continues, "When extracting messages from the backup, you can export them out as

00:21:19 ◼   ► text files or PDFs.

00:21:20 ◼   ► That can be super handy for legal cases and business needs."

00:21:23 ◼   ► That said, it's pretty buggy and sometimes doesn't work,

00:21:25 ◼   ► so you have to restart the Mac and phone periodically

00:21:27 ◼   ► to get things working again.

00:21:28 ◼   ► Overall, it has been worth having the tool

00:21:30 ◼   ► to help me manage my data without using iCloud.

00:21:32 ◼   ► So, there you go.

00:21:33 ◼   ► Jon, tell me about your Apple TV remote with Touch enabled.

00:21:36 ◼   ► We're disabled?

00:21:37 ◼   ► Enabled.

00:21:38 ◼   ► Tell me about it, one way or the other.

00:21:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I had disabled it because I was sick of

00:21:41 ◼   ► thinking that I was accidentally moving my thumb

00:21:43 ◼   ► a millimeter and causing the Apple TV to freak out,

00:21:46 ◼   ► and it really just wanted to eliminate it as a factor,

00:21:48 ◼   ► so now when I hit the center button on the Apple TV remote

00:21:51 ◼   ► and it does something ridiculous, I can say,

00:21:53 ◼   ► "Well, it's not because of the touch pad,

00:21:55 ◼   ► "because I turned that off."

00:21:56 ◼   ► It's a setting and Apple TV setting things

00:21:59 ◼   ► where you can make it so it just does clicks.

00:22:01 ◼   ► And I had it that way for a little bit,

00:22:03 ◼   ► and I was using it, and I was, of course,

00:22:04 ◼   ► swiping on the pad and realizing it doesn't work,

00:22:06 ◼   ► and then going to use the little D-pad thing.

00:22:08 ◼   ► But there is a fatal flaw with this arrangement,

00:22:11 ◼   ► at least the fatal flaw when I was trapped

00:22:12 ◼   ► in my room with COVID.

00:22:13 ◼   ► When I'm trapped in my room,

00:22:16 ◼   ► you learned how much my family needs my help

00:22:18 ◼   ► to use the equipment in the house,

00:22:19 ◼   ► because they just rely on me to do everything.

00:22:21 ◼   ► So they're FaceTiming me and texting me

00:22:24 ◼   ► and yelling up at me,

00:22:26 ◼   ► I can't do this thing on TV.

00:22:27 ◼   ► How do you do that or whatever?

00:22:29 ◼   ► And here's a place where I tried to help them remotely

00:22:32 ◼   ► and I couldn't.

00:22:33 ◼   ► And so I had to have them re-enable touch.

00:22:36 ◼   ► What do you think it was?

00:22:37 ◼   ► - Oh, I have no idea.

00:22:39 ◼   ► Do they do the scrubbing thing?

00:22:42 ◼   ► No, that uses the--

00:22:43 ◼   ► - So much more fundamental than that.

00:22:45 ◼   ► Think really, think about how bad Apple TV is.

00:22:48 ◼   ► - Scrolling?

00:22:49 ◼   ► - No, okay, here we go.

00:22:49 ◼   ► So they were trying to use an app on the Apple TV,

00:22:52 ◼   ► and of course it doesn't work,

00:22:55 ◼   ► and what happened was the app was so hosed

00:22:57 ◼   ► that it was just plain frozen.

00:22:59 ◼   ► And you could go back to the home screen,

00:23:01 ◼   ► and then you could go back to the app,

00:23:02 ◼   ► and I think they know how to do that,

00:23:03 ◼   ► but it didn't matter,

00:23:04 ◼   ► 'cause when you come back to the app,

00:23:06 ◼   ► it just wouldn't do anything.

00:23:07 ◼   ► It was just absolutely 100% locked up frozen,

00:23:09 ◼   ► no button did anything, right?

00:23:11 ◼   ► You could not play, you couldn't go back,

00:23:12 ◼   ► you couldn't go forward, you couldn't do anything.

00:23:14 ◼   ► They needed to force quit that app.

00:23:16 ◼   ► And they said, how do we force quit?

00:23:20 ◼   ► Force quitting isn't working.

00:23:21 ◼   ► And I realized I had a disabled touch.

00:23:23 ◼   ► Normally, you go to the multitasking switcher

00:23:25 ◼   ► by hitting the little TV looking button twice.

00:23:27 ◼   ► And then you pick the app you want and you swipe up.

00:23:29 ◼   ► Did they know that?

00:23:29 ◼   ► Because no one knows that.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Oh, they know that because we have Apple TV.

00:23:33 ◼   ► And they see me do it all the time because these apps--

00:23:35 ◼   ► it's not the first time an app is locked up on the Apple TV,

00:23:37 ◼   ► let me tell you.

00:23:38 ◼   ► Or sometimes it just gets into a wonky mode

00:23:40 ◼   ► and you need to force quit it.

00:23:42 ◼   ► This is force quitting the correct way,

00:23:44 ◼   ► which is when the app you're trying to use no longer works,

00:23:47 ◼   ► force quit that sucker and try to get it to work.

00:23:50 ◼   ► And there may be a way to force quit

00:23:52 ◼   ► without using the touchpad.

00:23:53 ◼   ► In fact, there has to be, there has to be a way.

00:23:55 ◼   ► But when I'm trapped up in my room with COVID

00:23:56 ◼   ► and my family's yelling at me,

00:23:58 ◼   ► I just said, just re-enable touch.

00:24:00 ◼   ► - I'm gonna guess by the way, it's probably,

00:24:02 ◼   ► I bet when you're in the multi-asset switcher

00:24:03 ◼   ► and you're over the app, instead of swiping up,

00:24:05 ◼   ► I bet if you like press or hold one of the buttons,

00:24:08 ◼   ► maybe like the play pause button.

00:24:09 ◼   ► - I had them do that.

00:24:11 ◼   ► I mean, I made a couple of good guesses.

00:24:13 ◼   ► Yeah, I made the, I tried holding up.

00:24:15 ◼   ► I tried having them hold the main button down.

00:24:18 ◼   ► Like I'd had them try to do a whole bunch of stuff

00:24:20 ◼   ► that's what I would have done if I was there.

00:24:22 ◼   ► Whatever it is, after one or two guesses of me trying to say

00:24:25 ◼   ► let's try this, like the thing you just suggested

00:24:27 ◼   ► and a few others, those didn't work.

00:24:29 ◼   ► And so I had to just give up and say,

00:24:30 ◼   ► just re-enable the touch.

00:24:32 ◼   ► I didn't bother Googling to find out the answer.

00:24:34 ◼   ► I'm sure if there's a way to force quit

00:24:35 ◼   ► without touch enabled, someone will tell us

00:24:37 ◼   ► and we'll put it in a follow up next week.

00:24:38 ◼   ► But there you go, an essential feature

00:24:40 ◼   ► of the Apple TV remote that you need touch

00:24:43 ◼   ► to be able to do unless you know how to do it

00:24:45 ◼   ► without touch, which I don't.

00:24:47 ◼   ► - Fun.

00:24:48 ◼   ► - Force quit, the most important feature on the Apple TV.

00:24:50 ◼   ► - Oh, I'm an Apple TV apologist, I feel bad.

00:24:54 ◼   ► - How many times have you had your family

00:24:56 ◼   ► trying to watch TV and the app freeze is solid?

00:24:58 ◼   ► - Well, all right, I'm gonna answer your question

00:25:01 ◼   ► by saying I know for a fact that Declan knows

00:25:05 ◼   ► how to do this very dance.

00:25:07 ◼   ► - Wow.

00:25:08 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:25:09 ◼   ► - I mean, he is eight now.

00:25:11 ◼   ► He needs to force quit everything because he's a youngster.

00:25:12 ◼   ► Right.

00:25:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:25:13 ◼   ► They just, they just need to go through and just, uh, by, by matter of course,

00:25:16 ◼   ► what's it, it's like their idle animation.

00:25:18 ◼   ► It just, you put any device in their hand and then they're bored.

00:25:21 ◼   ► They just go, quote unquote, force quitting those photos of applications

00:25:26 ◼   ► last launched a year ago, but it's really important to swipe those upwards.

00:25:29 ◼   ► My, my, my parents do it and they, and they'd say, I know these aren't

00:25:33 ◼   ► running apps.

00:25:34 ◼   ► I know they're just pictures.

00:25:35 ◼   ► I just like to not have the pictures there, which as I said in the past, not

00:25:37 ◼   ► having the pictures there is a legit user need

00:25:40 ◼   ► that is not being met by Apple, but that is combined.

00:25:43 ◼   ► Not having the pictures there and force quitting applications

00:25:45 ◼   ► are both the same thing as far as the UI is concerned.

00:25:49 ◼   ► Some of them you're force quitting,

00:25:51 ◼   ► but most of them you're removing pictures.

00:25:53 ◼   ► - Do people know, by the way,

00:25:55 ◼   ► the Apple Watch version of force quitting?

00:25:58 ◼   ► Do people know that?

00:25:59 ◼   ► - I bet you do.

00:26:00 ◼   ► - It's funny you bring that up

00:26:01 ◼   ► because I just tried to do this the other day.

00:26:03 ◼   ► What was it?

00:26:03 ◼   ► I don't remember, but I thought,

00:26:05 ◼   ► and you're gonna correct me,

00:26:06 ◼   ► I thought it was hold down on the bigger of the two buttons,

00:26:09 ◼   ► I forget what that's called.

00:26:10 ◼   ► - Hold down the big button until you get the lock screen,

00:26:13 ◼   ► then it'll hold in the crown for a couple seconds

00:26:14 ◼   ► and it kills the app.

00:26:15 ◼   ► - That's what I thought.

00:26:16 ◼   ► Maybe I was doing something wrong,

00:26:17 ◼   ► maybe I was holding it wrong, who knows,

00:26:18 ◼   ► but at the time it was not working.

00:26:20 ◼   ► And it was--

00:26:21 ◼   ► - You also, you can go into the app switcher

00:26:23 ◼   ► by hitting the side button and then just swipe to the left

00:26:25 ◼   ► so that it gets a little card out of the way.

00:26:27 ◼   ► That's a faster way to do it.

00:26:29 ◼   ► - I don't think I knew that one actually,

00:26:30 ◼   ► that's interesting.

00:26:31 ◼   ► Huh, well now I've learned something.

00:26:33 ◼   ► - Real time follow up from the chat room,

00:26:35 ◼   ► apparently force-quit without touch enabled,

00:26:37 ◼   ► is double tap up, like on the D-pad, tap, tap.

00:26:41 ◼   ► - Interesting. - Instead of swiping upwards,

00:26:42 ◼   ► instead of holding upwards, double tap up quickly.

00:26:45 ◼   ► Haven't tried this, haven't confirmed,

00:26:46 ◼   ► but that is what the chat room says.

00:26:48 ◼   ► - I mean, I would believe it, but yeah, that's still crummy.

00:26:51 ◼   ► By the way, did anyone else in the house

00:26:54 ◼   ► come down with COVID?

00:26:56 ◼   ► - Nope, so far, no, and since I'm negative,

00:26:57 ◼   ► I think we're probably in the clear.

00:26:59 ◼   ► - Nice. - So my isolation

00:27:00 ◼   ► and constant reading of speaker reviews

00:27:03 ◼   ► seems to have worked.

00:27:04 ◼   ► You have done the family a service.

00:27:06 ◼   ► I see how it is.

00:27:07 ◼   ► All right, some more information about the Apple TV.

00:27:10 ◼   ► I don't want to read this

00:27:11 ◼   ► 'cause I like the Apple TV, darn it.

00:27:13 ◼   ► David Bokeh writes, "I wanted to let you know

00:27:15 ◼   ► that Apple's own apps are not immune to bad behavior.

00:27:17 ◼   ► I was watching The Last of Us on HBO via the Hulu app,

00:27:20 ◼   ► and my daughter had to step out of the room, so we paused.

00:27:22 ◼   ► I then started watching a show on Apple TV+.

00:27:24 ◼   ► My daughter came back and I switched back to Hulu.

00:27:27 ◼   ► When The Last of Us was over,

00:27:28 ◼   ► and I switched back to my Apple TV show

00:27:29 ◼   ► and found that the playhead was 23 minutes

00:27:31 ◼   ► further into the Apple TV+ show.

00:27:33 ◼   ► than when I left it.

00:27:34 ◼   ► It kept playing while I was in the Hulu app.

00:27:36 ◼   ► I wonder if they are also getting bad metric data on usage

00:27:39 ◼   ► and if this is more widespread.

00:27:41 ◼   ► - This is another fun thing of like, you know,

00:27:43 ◼   ► should an application be able to play

00:27:46 ◼   ► when it's not showing anything on the screen?

00:27:49 ◼   ► Seems like something that shouldn't happen.

00:27:51 ◼   ► It seems like a pretty baseline level of competence.

00:27:53 ◼   ► Like the app that is not filling the screen

00:27:56 ◼   ► with its image should not be playing,

00:27:58 ◼   ► but apparently it was.

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00:29:56 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:29:59 ◼   ► So we have a little bit more about the diabetes

00:30:03 ◼   ► and blood glucose monitoring.

00:30:06 ◼   ► Jenga writes, "Because I work in tech,

00:30:08 ◼   ► "I was able to pay out of my own pocket

00:30:10 ◼   ► "for a continuous glucose monitor,

00:30:12 ◼   ► "in my case the Dexcom G6,

00:30:14 ◼   ► "which cost me about 170 pounds per month,

00:30:17 ◼   ► "or about $205, or approximately 2,000 pounds,

00:30:21 ◼   ► "or roughly $2,400 a year.

00:30:23 ◼   ► "Every year, forever."

00:30:25 ◼   ► Yikes.

00:30:26 ◼   ► So the cost of an Apple Watch that could theoretically do this would be peanuts compared to the existing

00:30:32 ◼   ► ones on the market.

00:30:33 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, definitely.

00:30:35 ◼   ► Scott Jen writes, "The Freestyle Libre continuous glucose monitor costs on the order of $300

00:30:41 ◼   ► and it lasts for two weeks and needs to be completely replaced and it gives you a glucose

00:30:45 ◼   ► reading every 15 minutes and has a buffer of something like six hours.

00:30:48 ◼   ► So as long as you copy the data to your phone every few hours, you don't miss anything and

00:30:51 ◼   ► it uses NFC.

00:30:52 ◼   ► You just tap your phone on it and it copies the data.

00:30:54 ◼   ► They're also prescription only in the US,

00:30:57 ◼   ► so you may have to pay for a doctor visit as well.

00:30:59 ◼   ► The price of a watch is absolutely worth it

00:31:00 ◼   ► to save pricking your finger, get continuous data,

00:31:03 ◼   ► or not needing to bother a doctor every two weeks.

00:31:06 ◼   ► For all three, if Apple can pull it off, it's a no-brainer.

00:31:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, the price of a lot of these

00:31:11 ◼   ► continuous glucose monitors are really expensive

00:31:13 ◼   ► for multiple reasons.

00:31:14 ◼   ► One, they're a quote-unquote prescription product

00:31:18 ◼   ► that has a market that has tons of regulation in it,

00:31:21 ◼   ► so there's not a lot of competitors.

00:31:22 ◼   ► And two, all those regulations that they have to comply with

00:31:26 ◼   ► do end up making the product cost more money

00:31:29 ◼   ► because it's very difficult.

00:31:30 ◼   ► It's become slightly less difficult, I think, over time,

00:31:32 ◼   ► but very difficult to actually comply

00:31:33 ◼   ► to be a certified medical device

00:31:35 ◼   ► that could kill people if it malfunctions.

00:31:37 ◼   ► And so you pay for that privilege.

00:31:38 ◼   ► And then also a bunch of the other ones,

00:31:40 ◼   ► they have consumables, like the little patch you put on.

00:31:41 ◼   ► Those patches don't last forever.

00:31:43 ◼   ► They last like 10 days or whatever.

00:31:44 ◼   ► And if you're lucky, they last 10 days.

00:31:46 ◼   ► And then you gotta peel them off

00:31:47 ◼   ► and you gotta put a new one in

00:31:48 ◼   ► because they just wear out.

00:31:49 ◼   ► Like the sticky stuff wears out and the thing,

00:31:50 ◼   ► they're not supposed to be in that long, right?

00:31:52 ◼   ► So there's consumables with things that are invasive,

00:31:55 ◼   ► as in they shove something under your skin.

00:31:57 ◼   ► And then they're just expensive.

00:31:59 ◼   ► All that stuff is expensive because it's not

00:32:02 ◼   ► like a competitive consumer electronics market type thing.

00:32:05 ◼   ► It's more of a medical device.

00:32:06 ◼   ► It's like if you ever tried to buy good quality crutches

00:32:10 ◼   ► or good quality walker or a good quality wheelchair,

00:32:13 ◼   ► that stuff's really expensive too.

00:32:14 ◼   ► And that is much lower bar in terms of compliance

00:32:17 ◼   ► and regulation than one of these devices.

00:32:19 ◼   ► The other thing is that we didn't really mention last time

00:32:21 ◼   ► Because the thing that Apple is trying to come up with is a thing that would monitor

00:32:26 ◼   ► your glucose levels.

00:32:29 ◼   ► But they're not coming up with a way to put insulin into your body without it.

00:32:33 ◼   ► A non-invasive insulin injection system would be even more fantastical.

00:32:37 ◼   ► So based on that information, you will need to get insulin into yourself somehow.

00:32:43 ◼   ► And whether that's the old-fashioned shots or the fancy insulin pumps that go under your

00:32:49 ◼   ► skin or into your body whatever and then dispense the correct amount of insulin

00:32:52 ◼   ► that's still gonna be there and that's why I still say like the you know if you

00:32:57 ◼   ► had a fantasy scenario curing diabetes would be ideal so you don't need

00:33:00 ◼   ► anything shoved into your body but eliminating one half of that which is to

00:33:05 ◼   ► not have to shove things into your self somewhere to get blood glucose readings

00:33:11 ◼   ► would be fantastic for a lot of people and then the cost of these are expensive

00:33:14 ◼   ► things means that even though a watch would be expensive it would still be

00:33:17 ◼   ► cheaper. My point last time about the cost of the watch is that this is a

00:33:21 ◼   ► non-invasive thing in theory that Apple comes up with and unlike the invasive

00:33:26 ◼   ► ones where I feel like not that people are happy to pay them but I think people

00:33:29 ◼   ► kind of understand that hey if you're getting something that shoves itself

00:33:31 ◼   ► under your skin and that there's a bunch of regulations around that because it's

00:33:35 ◼   ► a you know it's a more invasive device than a watch versus the thing you just

00:33:39 ◼   ► put on that has some sensors in it right that's why I feel like Apple would be

00:33:43 ◼   ► experiencing price pressure because they did come up this miraculous thing people

00:33:47 ◼   ► would expect it to be less expensive because it is less invasive, right?

00:33:50 ◼   ► In the same way that the blood oxygen monitor you can buy from CVS is inexpensive because

00:33:55 ◼   ► the Tekken is not complicated and it's quote unquote non-invasive.

00:33:57 ◼   ► It clamps on your finger but it's literally just a little light, right?

00:34:01 ◼   ► And people are going to see the Apple Watch and say I don't care about titanium, I don't

00:34:04 ◼   ► care about the quartz crystal glass, I don't care about the fancy processor that can, you

00:34:09 ◼   ► know, do all these amazing things, I just want the tiny sensor and the algorithm that

00:34:12 ◼   ► you came up with and I don't want to pay $500 for it.

00:34:14 ◼   ► So that's why I feel like there would be price pressure on Apple to make that innovation

00:34:18 ◼   ► available more widely, even though all those same people are still paying either out of

00:34:24 ◼   ► pocket or with a little bit of help from insurance way more money for the invasive system, simply

00:34:28 ◼   ► because I think it is more reasonable for an invasive system to cost more because it

00:34:32 ◼   ► is more fraught, let's say, more complicated.

00:34:36 ◼   ► Whereas if you come up with a non-invasive solution, it seems like it should be less

00:34:38 ◼   ► expensive unless it uses like, you know, whatever crystals from Star Trek to get the measurements.

00:34:44 ◼   ► - Is that what you're saying?

00:34:44 ◼   ► - There you go, thank you.

00:34:46 ◼   ► - And a few other things in the diabetes

00:34:48 ◼   ► and glucose monitoring that we heard,

00:34:49 ◼   ► we had a lot of feedback from a lot of people

00:34:51 ◼   ► who know way more than we do about this,

00:34:53 ◼   ► including many people with diabetes,

00:34:55 ◼   ► people who have worked on equipment for diabetes

00:34:57 ◼   ► and things like that, and so obviously, again,

00:34:59 ◼   ► our audience comes through really nicely

00:35:01 ◼   ► with a lot of very deep, specialized knowledge.

00:35:05 ◼   ► So thanks for all that.

00:35:06 ◼   ► And a few of the highlights that we didn't cover yet,

00:35:08 ◼   ► basically, there's many different ways

00:35:11 ◼   ► to measure blood glucose even with the existing sensors.

00:35:14 ◼   ► I was wrong about something, I wanna follow up,

00:35:16 ◼   ► that the continuous glucose monitors,

00:35:18 ◼   ► I said they have a half inch needle sticking out,

00:35:19 ◼   ► they have to stay in your skin the whole time.

00:35:21 ◼   ► Turns out, it doesn't stay in your skin the whole time,

00:35:23 ◼   ► that it basically inserts a little wire into your skin,

00:35:26 ◼   ► and that little wire stays in your skin the whole time,

00:35:28 ◼   ► but the needle just pops right out.

00:35:30 ◼   ► - Lots of people will send that information,

00:35:31 ◼   ► it's like, I understand that that is technically correct,

00:35:34 ◼   ► but it's not like people's objection is to,

00:35:36 ◼   ► oh, I don't want a needle in my skin, I want a little tube.

00:35:39 ◼   ► - Well, it's, I was happy,

00:35:41 ◼   ► 'Cause when my dog had to wear one of those,

00:35:43 ◼   ► it was the freestyle Libra or whatever,

00:35:46 ◼   ► when he had to wear one of those,

00:35:47 ◼   ► I was so, I felt so bad for him

00:35:49 ◼   ► that he had this thing in him the whole week

00:35:52 ◼   ► that it was in there.

00:35:52 ◼   ► - He does, it's just not a needle.

00:35:53 ◼   ► It's just a different thing.

00:35:54 ◼   ► - Right, but it's at least not as bad.

00:35:57 ◼   ► - I know, but the point is, all these things,

00:36:00 ◼   ► the reason they're called invasive

00:36:01 ◼   ► is because they shove something into your skin.

00:36:04 ◼   ► And yes, a needle helps it get there

00:36:05 ◼   ► and then the needle goes away maybe, right?

00:36:07 ◼   ► But the thing is still in your skin.

00:36:09 ◼   ► That's why it's invasive.

00:36:10 ◼   ► So it's not like when you prick your finger,

00:36:12 ◼   ► which is horrible for its own reason,

00:36:14 ◼   ► you prick it with a needle, but then the needle goes away

00:36:16 ◼   ► and then you just squeeze blood out of your finger,

00:36:18 ◼   ► which sucks, right?

00:36:19 ◼   ► But the things that go under your skin,

00:36:21 ◼   ► whether there's a needle involved or not,

00:36:22 ◼   ► something is under your skin the whole time that it's there.

00:36:24 ◼   ► And the whole point is that thing that's under your skin

00:36:26 ◼   ► is very small, very light, not pointy, very slippery,

00:36:29 ◼   ► like it's made to be as comfortable as possible,

00:36:31 ◼   ► but there's still something under your skin.

00:36:33 ◼   ► So everyone was very quick to say,

00:36:34 ◼   ► there's not a needle under your skin,

00:36:35 ◼   ► there's something else under your skin,

00:36:36 ◼   ► but forget about that, it's not a needle.

00:36:38 ◼   ► I agree, it's better than a needle,

00:36:40 ◼   ► but it's still quote unquote invasive

00:36:42 ◼   ► because there's something sticking into you.

00:36:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I think one, so there were two big themes

00:36:47 ◼   ► of feedback that I found unexpected that just I didn't know.

00:36:50 ◼   ► So one of them is that those continuous monitors

00:36:54 ◼   ► are not measuring in the bloodstream directly.

00:36:57 ◼   ► They're measuring in like subcutaneous,

00:36:59 ◼   ► like you know, skin and tissue layers.

00:37:01 ◼   ► And so it actually is kind of a delayed

00:37:03 ◼   ► or like less precise measurement.

00:37:05 ◼   ► And secondly, I assume once I heard

00:37:08 ◼   ► that insulin pumps existed,

00:37:10 ◼   ► and that continuous monitors existed,

00:37:11 ◼   ► I assumed that what most, at least type one people

00:37:14 ◼   ► with diabetes were doing was having the monitor

00:37:17 ◼   ► automatically dose the insulin pump,

00:37:20 ◼   ► creating what is called an artificial pancreas effectively.

00:37:24 ◼   ► And it turns out, based on the feedback,

00:37:25 ◼   ► it sounds like that's not actually that common.

00:37:28 ◼   ► And there's actually this whole world of hacking,

00:37:30 ◼   ► where people are like hacking the monitors' radio protocols

00:37:34 ◼   ► to intercept the data and run the pump possibly manually

00:37:38 ◼   ► or at least get the data out so it's less proprietary

00:37:40 ◼   ► or whatever else, that's a whole world

00:37:42 ◼   ► that I didn't know about.

00:37:43 ◼   ► But basically, if you think about the risk factors here,

00:37:46 ◼   ► if somebody with diabetes gives themselves

00:37:48 ◼   ► too much insulin, they die.

00:37:51 ◼   ► And too little insulin, I don't know if you can die

00:37:54 ◼   ► from too much blood sugar, you probably can at some point,

00:37:56 ◼   ► but at least it has other problems.

00:37:58 ◼   ► - It has very terrible health effects

00:37:59 ◼   ► and it will eventually kill you.

00:38:00 ◼   ► I'm not sure if it kills you as fast

00:38:02 ◼   ► as overdosing on insulin.

00:38:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, it has other problems at least,

00:38:04 ◼   ► but yeah, have too much insulin and you're dead.

00:38:06 ◼   ► And so this is something that you don't want to be left

00:38:10 ◼   ► to a system that is potentially flaky or imprecise.

00:38:13 ◼   ► And there's obviously huge high bars to clear

00:38:16 ◼   ► for anything that is approved for medical use

00:38:20 ◼   ► to do automatic dosing.

00:38:21 ◼   ► And so there's the separation of like,

00:38:24 ◼   ► are you gonna have monitoring?

00:38:26 ◼   ► And if you don't wanna go full artificial pancreas mode,

00:38:29 ◼   ► which has those big risks, you can have monitoring,

00:38:33 ◼   ► but you just use that as like information

00:38:36 ◼   ► to decide for yourself how much insulin to dose.

00:38:39 ◼   ► - This kind of reminds me of the AI copyright thing.

00:38:42 ◼   ► Like, I really do wonder if that really absolves anyone

00:38:45 ◼   ► from any kind of responsibility.

00:38:46 ◼   ► It's like, well, our insulin pump didn't kill you.

00:38:49 ◼   ► You're a faulty measurement with some other device

00:38:52 ◼   ► from another manufacturer.

00:38:52 ◼   ► You're a lousy pinprick with your little test strips

00:38:55 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:38:56 ◼   ► It was your choice, person, to decide to dose yourself

00:38:59 ◼   ► with this much insulin.

00:39:00 ◼   ► So technically, you made the mistake, not us,

00:39:02 ◼   ► and our insulin pump isn't at fault.

00:39:04 ◼   ► But then they would say, okay, but then what about,

00:39:07 ◼   ► whatever system I use to measure my blood glucose level,

00:39:11 ◼   ► the point of that system is it's supposed to give me

00:39:13 ◼   ► an accurate measure that I can take action based on

00:39:15 ◼   ► and it gave me a wrong measure or a bad measure.

00:39:17 ◼   ► So somebody's responsible somewhere because it's not as if

00:39:20 ◼   ► the person magically knows their own blood glucose level.

00:39:22 ◼   ► They're using some kind of tool or product they bought

00:39:25 ◼   ► from somebody that is supposed to be for that purpose.

00:39:28 ◼   ► And I kinda understand the pump people not getting

00:39:30 ◼   ► went into it, but they're like, hey, we're just a pump.

00:39:31 ◼   ► We just do whatever you tell us.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Like, if you typed in these numbers, we're gonna do that.

00:39:35 ◼   ► And as long as we did what you told us, we're not liable.

00:39:38 ◼   ► But somebody's liable.

00:39:40 ◼   ► And so, whether that's the resistance

00:39:41 ◼   ► to the closed loop thing, or it's, you know, like,

00:39:43 ◼   ► so I feel like just because the person made the choice

00:39:47 ◼   ► to enter that into the pump,

00:39:48 ◼   ► if the company that makes the pump

00:39:50 ◼   ► also makes the thing that gave them the measurement

00:39:52 ◼   ► that made them type that in,

00:39:53 ◼   ► putting a person in the middle

00:39:54 ◼   ► doesn't like absolve anybody from responsibility.

00:39:56 ◼   ► I feel like it's still just a question of

00:39:58 ◼   ► who is negligent here, or whose product malfunctioned.

00:40:01 ◼   ► Well, and so that's why I think what Apple

00:40:05 ◼   ► is most likely to do, if they can get this to work

00:40:08 ◼   ► and therefore be able to be made into a product feature,

00:40:12 ◼   ► I think that what they will probably do,

00:40:15 ◼   ► at least first and possibly forever,

00:40:18 ◼   ► is similar to what they've done.

00:40:19 ◼   ► If you look at the heart monitoring features

00:40:21 ◼   ► and things like that, they're not really meant

00:40:23 ◼   ► for people who have chronic heart problems

00:40:26 ◼   ► for the most part.

00:40:27 ◼   ► It's not giving you high-end diagnoses,

00:40:30 ◼   ► it isn't giving you a lot of real time,

00:40:32 ◼   ► actionable information that you need

00:40:33 ◼   ► if you have special heart needs.

00:40:36 ◼   ► It is giving you kind of an overview

00:40:38 ◼   ► and warning of extreme conditions.

00:40:40 ◼   ► And so I think what they're going to do here

00:40:42 ◼   ► is actually design, again, assuming this feature

00:40:45 ◼   ► even ships eventually, actually design it

00:40:49 ◼   ► so that it is not very useful to a person with diabetes.

00:40:53 ◼   ► Because of the inherent imprecision

00:40:56 ◼   ► in what they're probably going to do

00:40:58 ◼   ► compared to anything that's actually

00:40:59 ◼   ► measuring your blood, and combined with the delay

00:41:02 ◼   ► that it would probably have based on being,

00:41:06 ◼   ► being probably based more like the continuous ones,

00:41:08 ◼   ► where like you're not seeing everything

00:41:09 ◼   ► exactly as it happens, I bet what they're going to do

00:41:12 ◼   ► is delay the stats from it.

00:41:15 ◼   ► The same way right now with the ovulation detection,

00:41:18 ◼   ► they give you, they give you ovulation detection

00:41:20 ◼   ► like after the fact.

00:41:21 ◼   ► They look at your temperature pattern, you know,

00:41:24 ◼   ► over the last whatever, and they tell you after the fact,

00:41:27 ◼   ► oh by the way, it looks like you ovulated or whatever.

00:41:29 ◼   ► Remember when they launched a feature last fall

00:41:32 ◼   ► with the Watch Series 8, they called it something like

00:41:34 ◼   ► retrospective something something.

00:41:36 ◼   ► I bet they're gonna start with that, with this feature,

00:41:39 ◼   ► where they might not tell you right now

00:41:42 ◼   ► your blood glucose is this, but they might tell you

00:41:46 ◼   ► here's what your blood glucose was 12 hours ago

00:41:48 ◼   ► or six hours ago and then let you build data from that

00:41:51 ◼   ► of like, oh okay, whatever I had for lunch,

00:41:53 ◼   ► that probably was a bad idea or whatever.

00:41:55 ◼   ► And then secondly from that, maybe they will also warn you

00:41:58 ◼   ► of extreme conditions.

00:41:59 ◼   ► So if it's way too high or way too low,

00:42:02 ◼   ► maybe they'll tap you and alert you of that.

00:42:04 ◼   ► But I don't see them getting into the real time

00:42:07 ◼   ► glucose monitoring business in version one, if ever,

00:42:12 ◼   ► just because once you realize what that involves

00:42:15 ◼   ► with FDA clearance and legal liability

00:42:18 ◼   ► and the risk of people's lives if it goes wrong,

00:42:21 ◼   ► I don't think Apple's gonna wanna get into that that far.

00:42:24 ◼   ► I think they're gonna wanna hit the more broad

00:42:27 ◼   ► health benefits of extreme condition monitoring

00:42:30 ◼   ► and kind of delayed glucose monitoring

00:42:32 ◼   ► so that you can make different decisions

00:42:35 ◼   ► about maybe your diet or your habits or whatever,

00:42:38 ◼   ► but you're not using this thing to replace

00:42:42 ◼   ► a medical device that you actually need

00:42:43 ◼   ► if you actually have diabetes.

00:42:46 ◼   ► - Finally, I made a kind of offhanded comment,

00:42:50 ◼   ► I almost said yesterday, last week

00:42:52 ◼   ► with regard to Sono's stuff,

00:42:54 ◼   ► and my impression at the time was that

00:42:56 ◼   ► unless you add the Amazon Lady in the tube to your Sonos setup,

00:43:02 ◼   ► then that you couldn't call out like,

00:43:05 ◼   ► "Hey, Dingus, play mute math," or whatever the case may be.

00:43:09 ◼   ► And I have been corrected a couple of times.

00:43:11 ◼   ► I think Dan Provost was actually the first person to say something.

00:43:14 ◼   ► It turns out this is possible,

00:43:15 ◼   ► and I will link to the Sonos voice control information page,

00:43:20 ◼   ► like marketing page, on their website.

00:43:22 ◼   ► I only had the chance to try this very briefly,

00:43:24 ◼   ► and honestly, it was a little bit hit or miss.

00:43:25 ◼   ► But I had thought incorrectly that all you could do

00:43:29 ◼   ► was move stuff between, move music or audio between rooms,

00:43:34 ◼   ► say join audio here and there or stop,

00:43:37 ◼   ► volume up, volume down, et cetera.

00:43:38 ◼   ► But it turns out you can actually call out a request

00:43:40 ◼   ► and it will do its best to play that request

00:43:44 ◼   ► from Spotify, Apple Music, whatever the case may be.

00:43:47 ◼   ► So that is my mistake and you should look into this

00:43:49 ◼   ► a little more if you're at all interested.

00:43:52 ◼   ► - My poor Google Home had a rare instance

00:43:54 ◼   ► of Siri brain the other day I said, you know, okay, dingus lights out.

00:43:58 ◼   ► And it waited a little while and it said something very serial.

00:44:02 ◼   ► Like was like, uh, lights out is not available for playing right now or something.

00:44:06 ◼   ► Something as if it was looking for that song called and there's gotta be a

00:44:09 ◼   ► thousand songs called lights out.

00:44:10 ◼   ► So maybe it just couldn't connect to the internet or whatever, but it was like,

00:44:13 ◼   ► oh man, what's going on?

00:44:14 ◼   ► It's just hanging out with Siri too much.

00:44:15 ◼   ► Normally it's just does what I ask immediately.

00:44:17 ◼   ► And it gave me a C and so I asked Siri to do it.

00:44:20 ◼   ► That's why you gotta have multiple cylinders because you never know when

00:44:23 ◼   ► - One some cylinder is gonna betray you.

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00:46:07 ◼   ► - So let's see here.

00:46:12 ◼   ► There has been, speaking of betraying,

00:46:14 ◼   ► There's been a big brouhaha over the last couple of days

00:46:18 ◼   ► after Joanna Stern and Nicole Nguyen,

00:46:22 ◼   ► I hope I pronounced that someone close to correctly,

00:46:24 ◼   ► they wrote a bit of a bombshell article

00:46:27 ◼   ► and as always with Joanna Stern,

00:46:29 ◼   ► had a genuinely stellar video associated with it.

00:46:32 ◼   ► She is so good on video.

00:46:33 ◼   ► It kind of makes me mad that she can be so good in print

00:46:37 ◼   ► and also so good in video, it's not fair.

00:46:40 ◼   ► But anyway, there's been a lot of reporting done around this,

00:46:45 ◼   ► mostly by Joanna and Nicole,

00:46:47 ◼   ► and the problem is a lot of people,

00:46:52 ◼   ► particularly in bigger cities,

00:46:53 ◼   ► particularly outside bars, particularly in the evening,

00:46:55 ◼   ► particularly presumably after having

00:46:56 ◼   ► a couple of alcoholic beverages,

00:46:59 ◼   ► they're finding that their iPhones are getting stolen,

00:47:01 ◼   ► which in and of itself stinks,

00:47:03 ◼   ► but it's happening subsequent to the thief

00:47:08 ◼   ► part of the thief's crew shoulder surfing their passcode. So said differently, you know, I'm out

00:47:15 ◼   ► at the bar, I type in my 12345 password or passcode, somebody sees me do that and then

00:47:22 ◼   ► later on in the evening grabs my phone knowing full well that my passcode is 12345. This is a

00:47:29 ◼   ► big freaking problem because that means that the second they get the phone they can, you know,

00:47:37 ◼   ► change your iCloud password, they can turn off Find My Phone, and many many other things. They

00:47:44 ◼   ► can send themselves money with Venmo, PayPal, or Cash App. They can go into your banking app,

00:47:49 ◼   ► and oftentimes they can go ahead and send themselves money from there. You know, once you

00:47:53 ◼   ► have your passcode, they have control over biometrics, they can change the biometrics and

00:47:57 ◼   ► remove the biometrics, etc. It's really really bad. So reading from the article, "With only the iPhone

00:48:04 ◼   ► in its passcode, an interloper can, within seconds, change a password associated with

00:48:07 ◼   ► the iPhone owner's Apple ID. This would lock the victim out of their account, which includes

00:48:11 ◼   ► anything stored in iCloud. The thief can also often loot the phone's financial app, since

00:48:15 ◼   ► the passcode can unlock access to all the device's stored passwords. This is, as a side,

00:48:20 ◼   ► this is particularly bad when you're using iCloud Keychain, which I'm not trying to say

00:48:23 ◼   ► that iCloud Keychain is bad, but if you've already got the key to your iOS kingdom, then

00:48:28 ◼   ► you've gotten, you know, you have access to this interloper, as I said, has access to

00:48:33 ◼   ► your iCloud keychain and then you're off to the races.

00:48:36 ◼   ► Continuing from the article,

00:48:37 ◼   ► a similar vulnerability exists

00:48:38 ◼   ► in Google's Android mobile operating system.

00:48:41 ◼   ► However, the higher resale value of iPhones

00:48:42 ◼   ► makes them a far more common target,

00:48:44 ◼   ► according to law enforcement officials.

00:48:46 ◼   ► And a lot of times there'll be a story like this,

00:48:50 ◼   ► and everyone get up in arms, "Oh, look at this,

00:48:52 ◼   ► "Apple is just not even caring, not even trying."

00:48:54 ◼   ► I don't think that's what this is at all.

00:48:56 ◼   ► I think this is just a crummy set of circumstances.

00:48:59 ◼   ► Like I'm all for slagging on Apple

00:49:01 ◼   ► if they are being negligent,

00:49:03 ◼   ► but I don't personally think that's the case here at all.

00:49:06 ◼   ► I mean, there's only but so much they can do

00:49:08 ◼   ► if somebody has grabbed your passcode and your phone.

00:49:12 ◼   ► Like, I think there, and we'll talk about

00:49:14 ◼   ► some mitigation strategies here in a second,

00:49:16 ◼   ► but I don't think this is negligence on Apple's part.

00:49:19 ◼   ► And the problem is, as with all things,

00:49:24 ◼   ► the more secure you make things,

00:49:26 ◼   ► the less convenient they tend to be.

00:49:29 ◼   ► And some of these fixes that we'll talk about here

00:49:32 ◼   ► a minute, make some stuff less convenient. And Apple has to ride the fine line between

00:49:38 ◼   ► making it easy enough for a power user like me, who is maybe willing to have a much harder

00:49:42 ◼   ► time doing things or willing to jump through more hoops, versus my parents, who are not

00:49:48 ◼   ► dumb by any means and are pretty tech savvy for being nearly 70 years old. But nevertheless,

00:49:54 ◼   ► they don't want to have to jump through 3,000 hoops in order to do a lot of the stuff that

00:49:59 ◼   ► a passcode requires.

00:50:00 ◼   ► So, I don't know, this does not strike me

00:50:02 ◼   ► as one of those things where it's a brouhaha

00:50:06 ◼   ► made out of nothing, but it also doesn't strike me

00:50:09 ◼   ► as Apple being negligent either.

00:50:10 ◼   ► I don't know, how should we think about this?

00:50:12 ◼   ► - I think it's kind of like a historical hangover,

00:50:15 ◼   ► don't you feel like?

00:50:16 ◼   ► 'Cause, I mean, remember when the iPhone first came out,

00:50:18 ◼   ► there wasn't even a passcode, you just slide

00:50:19 ◼   ► the little thing on the bottom and it unlocks.

00:50:21 ◼   ► Different age, obviously, right?

00:50:23 ◼   ► And then for a long time when they had the passcode feature,

00:50:26 ◼   ► it was short and most people didn't use it,

00:50:28 ◼   ► And we've kind of worked our way up from there.

00:50:30 ◼   ► And I feel like, well, first of all,

00:50:33 ◼   ► this vulnerability has existed for ages.

00:50:35 ◼   ► This is not a new thing or whatever.

00:50:37 ◼   ► And I think the reason it's existed

00:50:38 ◼   ► is because they ended up in a situation

00:50:40 ◼   ► where the passcode, this thing,

00:50:42 ◼   ► first there was nothing, then there was passcode,

00:50:44 ◼   ► and then passcode got bigger.

00:50:45 ◼   ► And then we just built up

00:50:46 ◼   ► this whole big security infrastructure,

00:50:48 ◼   ► but the passcode was always there.

00:50:50 ◼   ► And I think they just let it go.

00:50:53 ◼   ► Things that were okay years and years ago,

00:50:54 ◼   ► like having no passcode, were allowed to live too long.

00:50:57 ◼   ► And I think the thing that was allowed to live too long here

00:50:59 ◼   ► is that the unlock code from your phone

00:51:03 ◼   ► can do just one or two too many things.

00:51:06 ◼   ► Because yes, it unlocks your phone or whatever.

00:51:08 ◼   ► But the fact that you can do stuff

00:51:11 ◼   ► like change your Apple ID password from your phone

00:51:13 ◼   ► without knowing the old Apple ID password,

00:51:15 ◼   ► as long as you know the passcode, seems like a bit much.

00:51:18 ◼   ► And you could say, oh, that's actually good

00:51:20 ◼   ► because people forget their Apple ID password

00:51:21 ◼   ► and they can change it from the phone.

00:51:22 ◼   ► Like I understand the utility of that feature,

00:51:24 ◼   ► but it seems like something

00:51:25 ◼   ► that sort of accidentally happened

00:51:26 ◼   ► because the keys to your iCloud kingdom

00:51:29 ◼   ► where your passcode was when they added iCloud to phones

00:51:31 ◼   ► and then you had your passcode to unlock it.

00:51:34 ◼   ► And it just seemed like,

00:51:35 ◼   ► "Well, why would we make them enter their password?

00:51:36 ◼   ► They're already on their quote unquote trusted device

00:51:37 ◼   ► and they know their passcode,

00:51:39 ◼   ► so we shouldn't ask them for any more."

00:51:41 ◼   ► But certain things are irreplaceable.

00:51:44 ◼   ► And the thing that really gets me about this

00:51:46 ◼   ► is not even so much people stealing money

00:51:48 ◼   ► or sending stuff.

00:51:49 ◼   ► Like there's a lot of the times you can go through fraud,

00:51:52 ◼   ► you can have a file fraud request with the bank

00:51:53 ◼   ► and if it's a credit card or whatever.

00:51:56 ◼   ► Yeah, you might lose some money, but in general,

00:51:58 ◼   ► it's actually more difficult than you think

00:52:00 ◼   ► to take huge amounts of money from someone

00:52:02 ◼   ► without giving them any recourse,

00:52:04 ◼   ► especially in the age of credit cards

00:52:06 ◼   ► and all that other stuff, right?

00:52:08 ◼   ► And even with debit cards,

00:52:09 ◼   ► it's hard to transfer large amounts

00:52:10 ◼   ► without firing up a flag

00:52:13 ◼   ► or having your bank stop it or whatever.

00:52:14 ◼   ► The thing that really kills me about these thefts

00:52:17 ◼   ► is if someone gets your phone

00:52:19 ◼   ► and can use your little passcode to change your Apple ID

00:52:22 ◼   ► and to lock you out of your Apple ID,

00:52:23 ◼   ► and often if they lock you out

00:52:25 ◼   ► And even if the thief gets caught and arrested

00:52:28 ◼   ► and goes to jail or whatever,

00:52:29 ◼   ► you may still never get your Apple ID back

00:52:31 ◼   ► because the whole point of the security

00:52:32 ◼   ► is that Apple doesn't have a magic internal key

00:52:34 ◼   ► to unlock all your stuff.

00:52:35 ◼   ► If they change your password

00:52:37 ◼   ► or they deleted everything from your thing or whatever,

00:52:39 ◼   ► you may never get that Apple ID back.

00:52:41 ◼   ► And what's associated with the Apple ID?

00:52:43 ◼   ► Photos, your family photos.

00:52:45 ◼   ► I think the person in the video lost their phone

00:52:47 ◼   ► and they lost 15 years worth of photos, right?

00:52:50 ◼   ► And for most people, that's the only place they have them.

00:52:52 ◼   ► I know if you're listening to this show,

00:52:54 ◼   ► Of course you have 17 copies of your iCloud photo library

00:52:57 ◼   ► and it's on backups and it's on a time machine,

00:52:59 ◼   ► it's on your Synology, it's on an external disk,

00:53:00 ◼   ► it's, you've backed up the back place,

00:53:02 ◼   ► but you're not like most people.

00:53:04 ◼   ► Most people, like, it's literally just quote unquote

00:53:06 ◼   ► on their phone.

00:53:07 ◼   ► They think it's safe, it's like, oh,

00:53:09 ◼   ► I dropped my phone in a lake a year ago

00:53:10 ◼   ► and I got a new phone and all my pictures are still there

00:53:12 ◼   ► and it just gives them this amazing confidence

00:53:13 ◼   ► that their pictures are safe.

00:53:15 ◼   ► Well, if a thief gets your phone

00:53:16 ◼   ► and they change your Apple ID password,

00:53:18 ◼   ► you may never see those photos again.

00:53:20 ◼   ► If you don't have those photos anywhere else, that's it.

00:53:23 ◼   ► They're gone, they're still there in some S3 server

00:53:27 ◼   ► somewhere, but they're protected by a password

00:53:29 ◼   ► on an iCloud account that you're never gonna get back.

00:53:32 ◼   ► And that is terrible, that is not replaceable.

00:53:34 ◼   ► You can't file a fraud request or whatever

00:53:39 ◼   ► with your bank to say, "Hey, someone stole my thing."

00:53:42 ◼   ► No one can give you those pictures back.

00:53:44 ◼   ► So yes, that's why you should have backups,

00:53:45 ◼   ► but also that's why the sort of iCloud, Apple ID takeover

00:53:50 ◼   ► is something that should not be possible

00:53:52 ◼   ► by shoulder-shuffling somebody's 1234 unlock code.

00:53:55 ◼   ► 'Cause that's a bridge too far.

00:53:57 ◼   ► Yes, they can take over your phone.

00:53:58 ◼   ► Yes, maybe they can get into your apps,

00:54:00 ◼   ► although the good banking apps will require face ID

00:54:02 ◼   ► and won't let you use a passcode.

00:54:04 ◼   ► Yes, maybe they'll get into your passwords or whatever,

00:54:07 ◼   ► but they're in this type of situation

00:54:08 ◼   ► where it's a race then for you to quickly change

00:54:10 ◼   ► all your passwords or log everybody out

00:54:12 ◼   ► of all of your things or whatever.

00:54:15 ◼   ► But none of those things are as,

00:54:16 ◼   ► they're all annoying and terrible

00:54:18 ◼   ► and can really screw with your life,

00:54:19 ◼   ► but none of those things are as valuable

00:54:20 ◼   ► as your whole lives were the photos of all your kids.

00:54:23 ◼   ► Like people who are, you know, much younger than I am,

00:54:26 ◼   ► the only photos they have are digital photos.

00:54:28 ◼   ► And all those photos are on their phone

00:54:30 ◼   ► and they're not making backups

00:54:31 ◼   ► 'cause who the heck make backups?

00:54:32 ◼   ► Or they think the iCloud is their backup.

00:54:33 ◼   ► Well guess what, when someone owns your Apple ID

00:54:36 ◼   ► and you can't get that Apple ID back ever,

00:54:38 ◼   ► all those photos are gone, gone.

00:54:40 ◼   ► If you're lucky, maybe you have a Mac

00:54:41 ◼   ► where you have a local cash copy of them

00:54:43 ◼   ► and if you're lucky you know how someone knows enough

00:54:45 ◼   ► to how to get them back without, you know,

00:54:47 ◼   ► getting locked out of your Apple ID

00:54:48 ◼   ► when it tries to sync with iCloud.

00:54:50 ◼   ► Like, it's grim, right?

00:54:52 ◼   ► So I feel like the passcode on your phone

00:54:56 ◼   ► should not allow you to be owned that hard.

00:54:59 ◼   ► Particularly, you should not be able to take over

00:55:04 ◼   ► an Apple ID because you know 1234.

00:55:07 ◼   ► And the sort of the authentication where they say,

00:55:10 ◼   ► well, it's two factor, we'll send you a thing.

00:55:11 ◼   ► Well, they're gonna send it to your phone

00:55:12 ◼   ► and not SMS, Apple has their own like two factor thing.

00:55:16 ◼   ► Like that's gonna let them get through too.

00:55:17 ◼   ► but I feel like you should have to know your password

00:55:20 ◼   ► to reset your password.

00:55:23 ◼   ► Now, I'm sure someone who works at Apple support

00:55:25 ◼   ► is gonna say, "We can't do that.

00:55:26 ◼   ► "If we did that, no one would ever be able

00:55:27 ◼   ► "to reset their password."

00:55:28 ◼   ► Because they forget their password

00:55:31 ◼   ► and they wanna use their phone to get out of it.

00:55:33 ◼   ► There needs to be an easier way.

00:55:34 ◼   ► So I feel for Apple in this situation, but,

00:55:37 ◼   ► and one more thing, this is why Touch ID and Face ID

00:55:42 ◼   ► are great, because they let you not have to enter

00:55:44 ◼   ► your unlock code.

00:55:45 ◼   ► They can't steal your face or your fingerprint as easily.

00:55:48 ◼   ► So far, thieves haven't figured that out,

00:55:49 ◼   ► but shoulder surfing your one, two, three, four is trivial.

00:55:52 ◼   ► Right?

00:55:53 ◼   ► In a crowded bar, you have no idea who's over your shoulder,

00:55:55 ◼   ► your screen's lit up or whatever.

00:55:57 ◼   ► And it's like, why would anybody type in their passcode?

00:55:59 ◼   ► Well, what if you're wearing a mask?

00:56:00 ◼   ► What if Face ID doesn't work

00:56:02 ◼   ► because you're wearing a scarf or a hat or someone's like,

00:56:06 ◼   ► especially in the age of COVID and all these masks,

00:56:08 ◼   ► even though yes, Face ID supposedly works with a mask.

00:56:10 ◼   ► Sometimes it just doesn't unlock.

00:56:12 ◼   ► Sometimes you just want to check out the grocery store

00:56:14 ◼   ► and it doesn't read with your mask

00:56:15 ◼   ► and you just do enter passcode and you type it in, right?

00:56:17 ◼   ► Being shoulder surf is more of a risk now than before,

00:56:20 ◼   ► but all of those technologies, face ID and touch ID,

00:56:22 ◼   ► and improving them and making them work with masks

00:56:24 ◼   ► is a mitigation against this kind of attack,

00:56:27 ◼   ► because it is harder for run-of-the-mill thieves to do that

00:56:30 ◼   ► than it is for someone to look over your shoulder

00:56:32 ◼   ► and see your passcode.

00:56:33 ◼   ► So I feel like what Apple has to do here

00:56:35 ◼   ► is what they've already been doing,

00:56:37 ◼   ► which is keep working on methods of authentication

00:56:40 ◼   ► that are not typing in a stupid code

00:56:42 ◼   ► that's too short or whatever,

00:56:43 ◼   ► 'cause no one types the really long one,

00:56:45 ◼   ► we'll get to that in a second.

00:56:46 ◼   ► And then also, if at all possible,

00:56:50 ◼   ► make it so that you cannot solely with the phone

00:56:53 ◼   ► and one, two, three, four,

00:56:55 ◼   ► lock someone out of their Apple ID for good

00:56:57 ◼   ► by changing their Apple ID password.

00:56:59 ◼   ► That's how you lock somebody out.

00:57:00 ◼   ► If you change their password now,

00:57:01 ◼   ► they don't know the password, but you do,

00:57:03 ◼   ► they're never gonna get back in again,

00:57:04 ◼   ► and all their photos belong to you.

00:57:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think what we can do in the short term

00:57:10 ◼   ► is raise awareness of this vulnerability,

00:57:13 ◼   ► because, like I was on the talk show

00:57:15 ◼   ► and I said some of this already,

00:57:17 ◼   ► so forgive me if you heard both.

00:57:19 ◼   ► What came as a huge surprise to me

00:57:22 ◼   ► is that you can change an Apple ID password

00:57:25 ◼   ► if you have the passcode to a logged in phone.

00:57:27 ◼   ► That, I had no clue that was possible.

00:57:30 ◼   ► And there's a mitigation of that,

00:57:31 ◼   ► which we'll get to in a second.

00:57:33 ◼   ► But that's good that we know that now.

00:57:35 ◼   ► Because I think most people,

00:57:38 ◼   ► as you're going through John's history of the universe there

00:57:40 ◼   ► of like, you know, before we had passcodes and everything,

00:57:43 ◼   ► Most people don't fully realize how much is at risk

00:57:48 ◼   ► if somebody takes over your entire Apple account

00:57:50 ◼   ► and has one of your logged in devices.

00:57:53 ◼   ► There is so much at risk now in your life, if that happens,

00:57:57 ◼   ► that I feel like we have to treat that pretty carefully.

00:58:00 ◼   ► We have to guard that very well.

00:58:02 ◼   ► The same way we would guard the possessions in our house.

00:58:07 ◼   ► Hey, lock the door at night, that kind of thing.

00:58:10 ◼   ► But most people, I don't think, treat their phone

00:58:13 ◼   ► with that level of security, and especially their passcode,

00:58:17 ◼   ► because most people just think if you know the passcode,

00:58:21 ◼   ► oh, I guess you get to play on my phone

00:58:22 ◼   ► without me knowing it, if you steal my phone also.

00:58:25 ◼   ► But you don't also think you are going to be able

00:58:28 ◼   ► to take over my entire Apple account

00:58:29 ◼   ► and also lock me out of it.

00:58:31 ◼   ► So I think it's useful, like what I've done in this,

00:58:35 ◼   ► in response to this, of learning this,

00:58:37 ◼   ► is I've gone back to an alphanumeric passcode,

00:58:40 ◼   ► like a password, because I had left it during COVID

00:58:44 ◼   ► because I kept having to go grocery shopping with masks

00:58:46 ◼   ► and this was before Face ID with mask support

00:58:48 ◼   ► and so it was a huge pain in the butt.

00:58:50 ◼   ► And so I switched back to a numeric code for that.

00:58:54 ◼   ► But now I switched back to the password style code

00:58:56 ◼   ► because number one, it's more secure,

00:58:59 ◼   ► but number two, and I think this is the bigger one,

00:59:03 ◼   ► When I'm entering a password into a password field,

00:59:07 ◼   ► I kind of just automatically, inherently treat it

00:59:11 ◼   ► like something more secure physically

00:59:13 ◼   ► to the world around me.

00:59:14 ◼   ► So I'm not gonna like type in a password into my phone

00:59:18 ◼   ► in a way that I think other people can easily overlook,

00:59:21 ◼   ► you know, look over my shoulder and see it

00:59:22 ◼   ► or see it from across the room or whatever.

00:59:24 ◼   ► You know, I might hold the phone closer to me.

00:59:26 ◼   ► I might just not do it for that time

00:59:28 ◼   ► and just put it back in my pocket and do it later.

00:59:29 ◼   ► You know, I would take better physical precautions

00:59:34 ◼   ► kind of automatically or habitually

00:59:36 ◼   ► when something looks like a password

00:59:38 ◼   ► as opposed to this, you know, a six digit code

00:59:40 ◼   ► that you type on these giant buttons

00:59:42 ◼   ► and it's so easy to do that you do it a million times a day.

00:59:45 ◼   ► You know, most people who I see typing in their passcode,

00:59:49 ◼   ► you know, on a routine basis,

00:59:51 ◼   ► usually it's people who don't routinely let Face ID

00:59:55 ◼   ► or Touch ID work for them.

00:59:57 ◼   ► Either it doesn't work for them

00:59:59 ◼   ► or they just instantly go to type in the passcode

01:00:01 ◼   ► because it has failed them in the past

01:00:03 ◼   ► and they don't trust it anymore.

01:00:04 ◼   ► And when your passcode is really easy

01:00:08 ◼   ► and it's just a couple of numbers to type in,

01:00:10 ◼   ► it's easier to get into that habit.

01:00:13 ◼   ► If your passcode is a password that's non-trivial,

01:00:17 ◼   ► then you're gonna be much more likely

01:00:20 ◼   ► to rely more on the biometrics whenever possible.

01:00:23 ◼   ► And if the biometrics aren't working for a long time

01:00:26 ◼   ► and you're having to type in your password all the time,

01:00:27 ◼   ► Maybe instead of just abandoning a face ID,

01:00:29 ◼   ► maybe you'll like retrain face ID, like reset it,

01:00:32 ◼   ► or something like that.

01:00:33 ◼   ► Because that's a huge problem.

01:00:36 ◼   ► I don't know if Apple's ever going to really get

01:00:39 ◼   ► everyone to trust the biometrics,

01:00:41 ◼   ► but one of the best things they can do

01:00:44 ◼   ► is make the biometrics work for more people.

01:00:47 ◼   ► And I don't just mean make it possible to work,

01:00:49 ◼   ► I mean make them compelling so that there are fewer

01:00:52 ◼   ► and fewer people over time who refuse to use them

01:00:55 ◼   ► and just type in there, you know, one, two, three, four,

01:00:57 ◼   ► every time they open their phone.

01:00:59 ◼   ► Because if the passcode has,

01:01:01 ◼   ► because of the amount of power the passcode has,

01:01:04 ◼   ► that again, most people don't realize,

01:01:06 ◼   ► but the amount of power the passcode has,

01:01:08 ◼   ► Apple needs to really try as much as,

01:01:12 ◼   ► and I know they do, but as much as they possibly can

01:01:16 ◼   ► to try to make sure no one is sticking with typing in

01:01:18 ◼   ► one, one, one, one, one, you know, a thousand times a day

01:01:22 ◼   ► in all kinds of places in public

01:01:24 ◼   ► every single time they take their phone out.

01:01:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's why the face ID with mask is so important.

01:01:28 ◼   ► Like yes, as we talked about when they did it,

01:01:29 ◼   ► does decrease the security,

01:01:31 ◼   ► there's less of a face that you're identifying or whatever,

01:01:33 ◼   ► but it is still preferable to people typing in 1234, right?

01:01:38 ◼   ► And alphanumeric passcode,

01:01:39 ◼   ► like that is in our list of mitigations here,

01:01:41 ◼   ► that's the first one on the list,

01:01:43 ◼   ► that's a definite mitigation.

01:01:44 ◼   ► It's harder to shoulder surf,

01:01:46 ◼   ► whether it's because of your body posture,

01:01:47 ◼   ► like Margot said, or just because of the plain fact

01:01:49 ◼   ► that presumably your alphanumeric passcode is not 1234.

01:01:52 ◼   ► Like just making it not on American doesn't solve

01:01:54 ◼   ► any problems other than giving you a tiny keyboard

01:01:56 ◼   ► to type on, you actually have to make it longer

01:01:58 ◼   ► and more complicated.

01:02:00 ◼   ► Of course nobody wants to do that.

01:02:01 ◼   ► So this is the most difficult solution

01:02:04 ◼   ► and if you go with the Marco solution,

01:02:05 ◼   ► it was like that's a perverse incentive,

01:02:07 ◼   ► I hate it so much, I will avoid it whenever possible

01:02:09 ◼   ► and I'll use biometrics.

01:02:11 ◼   ► As we talked about in the past,

01:02:12 ◼   ► apparently old people can't use Touch ID

01:02:14 ◼   ► 'cause their fingerprints are too non-consistent,

01:02:18 ◼   ► which is rough, but I think Face ID should work

01:02:21 ◼   ► about as well for everybody, including older people.

01:02:25 ◼   ► So, you know, but again, it's just a question of like,

01:02:27 ◼   ► oh, well, it failed me once or twice

01:02:29 ◼   ► and now I give up on it 'cause it's newfangled.

01:02:30 ◼   ► 'Cause people blame themselves,

01:02:31 ◼   ► especially people who are less familiar with technology,

01:02:33 ◼   ► they blame themselves.

01:02:34 ◼   ► They think I'm doing something wrong.

01:02:35 ◼   ► It makes me feel bad when I stare at this rectangle

01:02:39 ◼   ► and it just blinks at me and gives me some kind of error

01:02:41 ◼   ► that I don't understand.

01:02:42 ◼   ► It makes me not wanna do that

01:02:43 ◼   ► 'cause I feel like I'm failing.

01:02:45 ◼   ► I'm failing to use the device, right?

01:02:47 ◼   ► And that doesn't feel good.

01:02:48 ◼   ► And it's like, well, you know what?

01:02:49 ◼   ► I could type one, two, three, four every single time.

01:02:51 ◼   ► It's I'm familiar with the touchpad button.

01:02:53 ◼   ► It's a technology that was created in my lifetime

01:02:54 ◼   ► when they went from rotary dial to touch tone dialing.

01:02:58 ◼   ► I made that transition when I was 30

01:03:00 ◼   ► and now I'm comfortable with it.

01:03:01 ◼   ► And so I'm not even gonna bother with Face ID.

01:03:03 ◼   ► And it is Apple's challenge to get those people on board.

01:03:06 ◼   ► And every time they make Face ID faster

01:03:08 ◼   ► for it to work on more angles,

01:03:10 ◼   ► for it to work with a mask on,

01:03:11 ◼   ► like that is all an attempt to get those people on board.

01:03:14 ◼   ► You're not gonna get everybody all the time,

01:03:15 ◼   ► but that's why I commend Apple's efforts

01:03:17 ◼   ► to try to make Face ID the go-to option,

01:03:22 ◼   ► despite the fact that, like I said,

01:03:23 ◼   ► I think they should clamp down on the power of the passcode,

01:03:27 ◼   ► which I feel like is just sort of an inherited advantage,

01:03:30 ◼   ► because in the beginning, that's all there was,

01:03:32 ◼   ► and now there's so much more,

01:03:33 ◼   ► but the passcode has retained its power.

01:03:35 ◼   ► It's retained the keys to the kingdom,

01:03:37 ◼   ► and maybe it's time to think about taking them away.

01:03:40 ◼   ► The second mitigation here

01:03:41 ◼   ► is use a different password manager.

01:03:43 ◼   ► This is for the mitigation

01:03:44 ◼   ► on people not getting your passwords.

01:03:45 ◼   ► It doesn't help with your Apple ID,

01:03:46 ◼   ► because again, the passcode is gonna give you access

01:03:48 ◼   ► to that, right?

01:03:49 ◼   ► But if you don't want it to have all the passwords

01:03:51 ◼   ► to all your different websites,

01:03:53 ◼   ► don't use Apple's iCloud Keychain

01:03:56 ◼   ► because once they get into your Apple ID,

01:03:58 ◼   ► they have access to your iCloud Keychain,

01:04:00 ◼   ► which is where your passwords are

01:04:01 ◼   ► and they can look them all up.

01:04:02 ◼   ► I mean, someone could shoulder surf

01:04:05 ◼   ► your one password password as well,

01:04:06 ◼   ► but again, presumably that's harder depending if you,

01:04:08 ◼   ► you know, presumably you have

01:04:09 ◼   ► the long alphanumeric thing for that.

01:04:11 ◼   ► That is an advantage of having, you know,

01:04:14 ◼   ► having sort of a, not putting all your eggs in one basket,

01:04:18 ◼   ► the disadvantage is that it's a little bit more complicated

01:04:20 ◼   ► and potentially more costly than using the Apple solution.

01:04:23 ◼   ► So I'm glad Apple builds in iCloud Keychain

01:04:25 ◼   ► and I'm glad they continue to enhance it

01:04:28 ◼   ► and support the timed authentication code stuff

01:04:32 ◼   ► and cloud syncing and eventually pass keys.

01:04:35 ◼   ► All that's great, but if someone cracks your Apple ID,

01:04:39 ◼   ► they own all that stuff too.

01:04:41 ◼   ► - Yay.

01:04:42 ◼   ► - And then the final thing that you can do

01:04:44 ◼   ► to mitigate this, which is what I've actually done.

01:04:46 ◼   ► And I think pretty much everybody listening

01:04:48 ◼   ► to the show should do, 'cause there's not a lot of downsides

01:04:50 ◼   ► and it directly addresses the vulnerability is,

01:04:53 ◼   ► we'll get to this in the after show, I suppose,

01:04:55 ◼   ► but to use this screen time feature,

01:04:57 ◼   ► which is a feature to try to limit people,

01:05:00 ◼   ► presumably in a family,

01:05:02 ◼   ► how much time they spend in various applications.

01:05:04 ◼   ► You can add content restrictions.

01:05:05 ◼   ► It's like, oh, this is for kids,

01:05:06 ◼   ► so they're not on YouTube late at night.

01:05:08 ◼   ► Ha ha, what kid would do that?

01:05:10 ◼   ► But as the family organizer or whatever they call it,

01:05:15 ◼   ► or even as an adult, you can enable screen time

01:05:18 ◼   ► on your own phone, whether it's to try to train yourself

01:05:20 ◼   ► not to use Twitter too much,

01:05:22 ◼   ► which we talked about in the past,

01:05:23 ◼   ► it's not much of an issue anymore,

01:05:25 ◼   ► or whatever it is you wanna do.

01:05:26 ◼   ► You can set up screen time on your own phone

01:05:28 ◼   ► and put limits on it.

01:05:28 ◼   ► And it's like, well, why would I wanna do that?

01:05:30 ◼   ► What's the point of that?

01:05:31 ◼   ► You know, it might be a fun thing for you to do

01:05:34 ◼   ► to shape your own habits,

01:05:37 ◼   ► But also, you can add a screen time passcode,

01:05:40 ◼   ► which is mostly, you would think that's mostly there

01:05:41 ◼   ► so the kids can't go to the settings and screen time

01:05:44 ◼   ► and like disable all their prescriptions

01:05:45 ◼   ► 'cause they don't know your screen time passcode.

01:05:47 ◼   ► Well, guess what?

01:05:48 ◼   ► Your screen time passcode can be different

01:05:51 ◼   ► than your phone's unlock code.

01:05:53 ◼   ► So what you do is you go into screen time,

01:05:55 ◼   ► you enable it in settings screen time,

01:05:57 ◼   ► and then you set a screen time passcode

01:05:59 ◼   ► and make it different than your phone passcode.

01:06:02 ◼   ► I think it's limited to four digits, so it's not great,

01:06:05 ◼   ► but set a screen time passcode that you will remember

01:06:09 ◼   ► and make it different than your phone lock thing.

01:06:10 ◼   ► On your own phone.

01:06:11 ◼   ► Now obviously, what's the point of that?

01:06:12 ◼   ► You can always unlock it,

01:06:14 ◼   ► 'cause if you get annoyed by something, you know,

01:06:15 ◼   ► setting, you can just go into screen time

01:06:17 ◼   ► and disable the passcode, 'cause you'll type,

01:06:18 ◼   ► it'll say, okay, you wanna turn off the passcode,

01:06:20 ◼   ► type it in, and you'll type it in, and it will disable it.

01:06:22 ◼   ► It's not to stop you, it's to stop the thief.

01:06:25 ◼   ► And then the final thing you do is,

01:06:27 ◼   ► in setting screen time,

01:06:28 ◼   ► go to enable content privacy restrictions.

01:06:32 ◼   ► That's like the big switch at the very top of the screen.

01:06:34 ◼   ► And then after you turn that on, all the options below it

01:06:37 ◼   ► in the screen will be enabled.

01:06:38 ◼   ► Scroll, scroll, scroll until you see an option

01:06:41 ◼   ► called account changes, and you wanna change that

01:06:43 ◼   ► to don't allow.

01:06:44 ◼   ► So you're using screen time to stop your,

01:06:47 ◼   ► quote unquote, yourself from doing one specific thing,

01:06:50 ◼   ► which is making changes to your account.

01:06:53 ◼   ► Once you do that, then if the thief gets your phone

01:06:56 ◼   ► and they unlock it with your passcode

01:06:59 ◼   ► that they shoulder surfed, when they go to change

01:07:01 ◼   ► your Apple ID password, it will say,

01:07:03 ◼   ► uh-uh-uh, screen time says you're not allowed

01:07:05 ◼   ► to make a change just to your account.

01:07:07 ◼   ► And if they go try to disable screen time,

01:07:09 ◼   ► it'll say please enter your screen time passcode,

01:07:10 ◼   ► which they did not shoulder surf from you

01:07:12 ◼   ► because why are you ever gonna be entering

01:07:14 ◼   ► your screen time passcode ever

01:07:15 ◼   ► because the only restriction you put on it

01:07:17 ◼   ► is account changes, right?

01:07:19 ◼   ► Now, there may be ways around screen time restrictions.

01:07:23 ◼   ► Clever thieves will figure it out.

01:07:25 ◼   ► Clever thieves will get your stuff no matter what.

01:07:27 ◼   ► Like it's tough, but like the run of the mill thief

01:07:30 ◼   ► will be thwarted by an additional four digit code

01:07:32 ◼   ► that they don't know.

01:07:34 ◼   ► And so until and unless it becomes well-known

01:07:36 ◼   ► how to get around this particular restriction of screen

01:07:38 ◼   ► time, you can stop someone from totally taking over your Apple

01:07:41 ◼   ► ID by enabling screen time, setting a passcode on it,

01:07:43 ◼   ► and then turning off account changes.

01:07:46 ◼   ► Oh, and by the way, when you do this, when you set the thing,

01:07:49 ◼   ► it will prompt you and it will say,

01:07:50 ◼   ► hey, do you want to be able to use your Apple ID to unlock

01:07:56 ◼   ► screen time in case you forget the screen time passcode?

01:07:59 ◼   ► It's not obvious from the UI what you have to do here.

01:08:01 ◼   ► is like, oh, it's making me enter my Apple ID.

01:08:04 ◼   ► Isn't that just gonna,

01:08:05 ◼   ► because once a thief has your Apple ID with your passcode,

01:08:07 ◼   ► can't they just disable the screen time thing that way?

01:08:10 ◼   ► What you have to do is you have to hit cancel

01:08:11 ◼   ► when it prompts you to do that.

01:08:13 ◼   ► It seems like you're saying

01:08:14 ◼   ► you're canceling the whole operation, but you're not.

01:08:15 ◼   ► You're just canceling this part.

01:08:17 ◼   ► When you hit cancel, it prompts you and says,

01:08:18 ◼   ► are you sure you wanna have a screen time passcode

01:08:21 ◼   ► and you don't wanna have a way

01:08:23 ◼   ► to get around that screen time passcode with your Apple ID?

01:08:26 ◼   ► Because if you forget the screen time passcode,

01:08:28 ◼   ► it could be bad for you.

01:08:29 ◼   ► So like, don't, you know, write it down somewhere.

01:08:31 ◼   ► don't put it in iCloud Keychain where the thief can get it

01:08:34 ◼   ► 'cause they own your Apple ID.

01:08:35 ◼   ► Put it somewhere else.

01:08:37 ◼   ► And you just hit cancel on that and that prompts you

01:08:40 ◼   ► and you have to put like skip or whatever.

01:08:42 ◼   ► And so then you'll have a screen time passcode

01:08:44 ◼   ► that is not in your iCloud Keychain, don't put it there.

01:08:47 ◼   ► Don't put it in a secure note

01:08:49 ◼   ► because they can unlock that with your passcode.

01:08:50 ◼   ► Don't put it in the notes app, put it somewhere else.

01:08:54 ◼   ► And it's only four digits, but it could save your butt.

01:08:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, I did all this this morning

01:08:58 ◼   ► when I saw the show up in the show notes.

01:09:00 ◼   ► I have tried to put fairly straightforward descriptions

01:09:04 ◼   ► of how you do this in the show notes.

01:09:08 ◼   ► And so, in the show notes that you guys can see,

01:09:10 ◼   ► sorry, the one I was talking about earlier

01:09:12 ◼   ► is the one only the three of us can see.

01:09:14 ◼   ► So anyway, we have stuff in the show notes for you folks,

01:09:17 ◼   ► and hopefully that will be helpful.

01:09:20 ◼   ► I mean, again, it's what is your threat threshold, right?

01:09:25 ◼   ► Like if you don't go to bars,

01:09:27 ◼   ► if you're never around people,

01:09:29 ◼   ► and maybe you don't need to do all these mitigations,

01:09:31 ◼   ► but I don't know.

01:09:33 ◼   ► I'm not a bar-going kind of fellow,

01:09:36 ◼   ► but nevertheless, I immediately returned

01:09:39 ◼   ► to using an alphanumeric passcode.

01:09:40 ◼   ► I had been using one for a couple of years,

01:09:42 ◼   ► maybe even a few years,

01:09:43 ◼   ► and then it was in the last year or two,

01:09:46 ◼   ► maybe it was during the mask thing

01:09:48 ◼   ► like Marco was talking about,

01:09:49 ◼   ► I really honestly don't remember,

01:09:50 ◼   ► but at some point I went to a six-digit passcode.

01:09:53 ◼   ► Well, now I'm back in the alphanumeric,

01:09:54 ◼   ► and then I did all these screen time protections as well.

01:09:57 ◼   ► And then I'm not an iCloud keychain person.

01:09:59 ◼   ► Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it,

01:10:01 ◼   ► but I am a one-password kind of person.

01:10:04 ◼   ► So obviously that's what I'm using

01:10:06 ◼   ► for all of my banking passwords and things like that.

01:10:08 ◼   ► So I feel better protected now than I was before.

01:10:13 ◼   ► But yeah, this is alarming and it's tough

01:10:15 ◼   ► because what is Apple supposed to do?

01:10:17 ◼   ► Like there are instances where people forget

01:10:20 ◼   ► their Apple ID passwords.

01:10:22 ◼   ► And then what are they supposed to do at that point?

01:10:25 ◼   ► from Apple's perspective, they have a device

01:10:28 ◼   ► that has been logged, you know,

01:10:29 ◼   ► you have logged into that device, so to speak,

01:10:31 ◼   ► you know, you've unlocked the device,

01:10:33 ◼   ► why not let the person do that?

01:10:35 ◼   ► You know, well, why shouldn't they let them

01:10:37 ◼   ► change their own Apple ID?

01:10:38 ◼   ► And obviously we just described why not,

01:10:39 ◼   ► but oof, it's a tough, it's a tough nut to crack,

01:10:42 ◼   ► and I don't know what the right answer is.

01:10:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and if you have a Mac, by the way,

01:10:45 ◼   ► like basically the passcode to your Mac

01:10:47 ◼   ► is the password to your Mac account,

01:10:48 ◼   ► so you can still change your Apple ID password

01:10:50 ◼   ► if you forget it from your Mac,

01:10:52 ◼   ► because you'll enter your,

01:10:53 ◼   ► it'll prompt you for your Mac password.

01:10:55 ◼   ► And I think you can do it from the web

01:10:56 ◼   ► through various techniques as well.

01:10:58 ◼   ► You have recovery codes.

01:10:59 ◼   ► Like there's lots of other ways around this.

01:11:01 ◼   ► Even if you do this, this is just protecting your phone.

01:11:04 ◼   ► So if someone shoulder surfs your Mac account password

01:11:06 ◼   ► and it's an admin account, you're also kind of owned as well.

01:11:09 ◼   ► That I feel like is, you know,

01:11:12 ◼   ► like again, if you're in a coffee shop on your laptop,

01:11:14 ◼   ► typing in your Mac's password

01:11:17 ◼   ► and then someone shoulder surfs that from you

01:11:19 ◼   ► and takes off with your laptop, you have a similar problem.

01:11:22 ◼   ► Maybe a similar mitigation, but you know.

01:11:25 ◼   ► Anyway, the thieves suck, be careful out there.

01:11:28 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Also, I wanted to issue

01:11:29 ◼   ► a small correction to what I said on the talk show,

01:11:32 ◼   ► so I guess this is auto follow out.

01:11:34 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:11:36 ◼   ► - Oh no. (laughing)

01:11:38 ◼   ► - So I, you know, we were talking about this,

01:11:40 ◼   ► and I was saying like, you know,

01:11:41 ◼   ► normally I feel like my bank app is fairly safe

01:11:45 ◼   ► because I use Face ID and because I don't store

01:11:47 ◼   ► the bank password in 1Password,

01:11:49 ◼   ► and so I thought that was safe,

01:11:51 ◼   ► But then I realized, oh no, that's not safe,

01:11:53 ◼   ► because if you have the phone's passcode,

01:11:56 ◼   ► then you can just type that in instead of providing Face ID.

01:11:58 ◼   ► Well, it turns out that's wrong sometimes.

01:12:01 ◼   ► So that when the app developer is storing something

01:12:05 ◼   ► in Keychain, using the Keychain APIs,

01:12:08 ◼   ► we are able to set different security levels and flags on it

01:12:12 ◼   ► to for like, how much security it needs,

01:12:14 ◼   ► what should certain behaviors be,

01:12:16 ◼   ► does it require certain things to be unlocked,

01:12:18 ◼   ► what happens when the phone locks, stuff like that.

01:12:21 ◼   ► And apparently one of the modes that app developers can choose

01:12:24 ◼   ► to use is you can require the biometric, Face ID or Touch ID,

01:12:29 ◼   ► but not offer a fallback to the PIN code.

01:12:33 ◼   ► And also, if somebody changes the registered face

01:12:37 ◼   ► or the fingerprints, to have those not work.

01:12:40 ◼   ► Yeah, that's what my bank does.

01:12:42 ◼   ► Because every time I get a new phone,

01:12:43 ◼   ► I realize I can't use any of my bank apps

01:12:44 ◼   ► and no enter my password.

01:12:46 ◼   ► There's no prompt for it.

01:12:47 ◼   ► It's like, oh, Face ID is totally disabled.

01:12:49 ◼   ► You gotta log in the long, painful way

01:12:50 ◼   ► by typing in a bunch of stuff

01:12:52 ◼   ► and answering a bunch of questions.

01:12:53 ◼   ► And then at the very end of that process,

01:12:54 ◼   ► it says, oh, and by the way,

01:12:55 ◼   ► now that you've cleared all these hurdles,

01:12:56 ◼   ► do you wanna use Face ID?

01:12:57 ◼   ► And you say yes.

01:12:58 ◼   ► Every time I get a new phone, I have to do that.

01:13:00 ◼   ► And yeah, there is no passcode fallback.

01:13:02 ◼   ► - And in this case, that's a very good thing

01:13:04 ◼   ► because that means that if you go

01:13:05 ◼   ► through these vulnerabilities,

01:13:07 ◼   ► if someone steals your phone and knows your passcode

01:13:09 ◼   ► but doesn't know your bank password

01:13:11 ◼   ► and you didn't store it in iCloud Keychain,

01:13:14 ◼   ► then this will prevent them from being able

01:13:17 ◼   ► to get into an app like this if it's configured this way.

01:13:20 ◼   ► - Joke's on them, because my bank account

01:13:22 ◼   ► has such low transfer limits, they'll only be able

01:13:24 ◼   ► to steal a very small amount of money

01:13:25 ◼   ► before they get locked out of my account.

01:13:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, and also, and this is why,

01:13:30 ◼   ► at the end of that process, when you are telling

01:13:32 ◼   ► your bank account, please use Face ID,

01:13:34 ◼   ► this is why it then immediately scans your face.

01:13:37 ◼   ► Because what it's saying is not,

01:13:39 ◼   ► trust any registered face on this phone,

01:13:42 ◼   ► what it's saying is, trust this face.

01:13:45 ◼   ► and it scans it and then it trusts only that face.

01:13:48 ◼   ► Same thing for Touch ID if you have a Touch ID device.

01:13:50 ◼   ► So that's very good to know and so it's not,

01:13:53 ◼   ► the attack service is not as bad as I initially assumed,

01:13:57 ◼   ► but it's still pretty bad and so definitely

01:14:00 ◼   ► start thinking of your phone PIN

01:14:03 ◼   ► with the same level of security

01:14:05 ◼   ► that you would treat your Apple ID password with.

01:14:08 ◼   ► If your phone PIN is less secure than your Apple ID password,

01:14:10 ◼   ► really ask yourself if that's the right move for you

01:14:13 ◼   ► going forward and really consider making your phone pin

01:14:17 ◼   ► a nice password.

01:14:19 ◼   ► - And I was thinking that Apple needs to have,

01:14:21 ◼   ► 'cause I was thinking about what would happen if I,

01:14:22 ◼   ► you know, if this happened to my phone

01:14:23 ◼   ► and they got it stolen from me,

01:14:25 ◼   ► even if I had the screen time password on, right?

01:14:27 ◼   ► Kind of like on the phone and on the watch,

01:14:30 ◼   ► those are these various features,

01:14:31 ◼   ► but you hold down the side buttons

01:14:33 ◼   ► and it goes into emergency mode

01:14:34 ◼   ► or the watch will call the police

01:14:36 ◼   ► if you're in a car accident and you're not conscious

01:14:38 ◼   ► and all those things they have for,

01:14:40 ◼   ► In case of emergency, here's how you initiate

01:14:43 ◼   ► the it's emergency time procedure

01:14:45 ◼   ► on the phone or the watch, right?

01:14:47 ◼   ► But there is no such user-friendly procedure

01:14:50 ◼   ► that is easy to find or know or do

01:14:54 ◼   ► quickly under pressure for my Apple ID is about to be owned.

01:14:58 ◼   ► Log me out of all devices, lock everything down.

01:15:02 ◼   ► Us as tech nerds could eventually figure out

01:15:05 ◼   ► the right things to do, but in the moment

01:15:06 ◼   ► when you're panicking, it's not so easy.

01:15:08 ◼   ► Like where do I start, where do I go to?

01:15:09 ◼   ► should I go to the web interface, should I open Safari,

01:15:11 ◼   ► should I go on my iPad, should I go on my Mac,

01:15:14 ◼   ► should I call somebody who has access to,

01:15:16 ◼   ► we kind of know what we'd want to do,

01:15:18 ◼   ► change all your passwords, lock everything out,

01:15:20 ◼   ► go into all your things that says,

01:15:21 ◼   ► log me out of all devices,

01:15:22 ◼   ► but do you know how to get to the log me out of all devices

01:15:24 ◼   ► in your iCloud thing quickly,

01:15:26 ◼   ► or would you just go to iCloud.com and log in

01:15:28 ◼   ► and frantically look for something?

01:15:30 ◼   ► I feel like there should be a big red button,

01:15:32 ◼   ► which is like, my phone has been stolen,

01:15:34 ◼   ► whatever Apple wants to call it.

01:15:36 ◼   ► And no, finding my iPhone is not that solution,

01:15:38 ◼   ► because I don't care about where my iPhone is,

01:15:40 ◼   ► I care about where access to the keys to the kingdom.

01:15:43 ◼   ► Lock down all my iCloud key chain stuff

01:15:45 ◼   ► and don't allow anybody in