524: The Anti-Fireplace Lobby


00:00:00   Oh, oh, oh, one last thing. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

00:00:02   If you are a Tweetbot or Twitterific person,

00:00:04   we should put this on the show.

00:00:05   I didn't even think about this.

00:00:06   - Oh, that's too late, yeah.

00:00:07   I'm sure you talked about it on the talk show.

00:00:08   - No, we didn't. - Well, either way.

00:00:09   - No, you should have. - Either way.

00:00:10   - Well, I don't think it was out yet.

00:00:12   - It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

00:00:13   All right, the point is,

00:00:14   if you are a Tweetbot or Twitterific person

00:00:17   who had a subscription, go and redownload the app.

00:00:20   Not kidding. Go to the App Store, redownload the app,

00:00:23   and then it'll ask you,

00:00:25   do you want a prorated refund in the case of Tweetbot?

00:00:28   Do you want to push that over to ivory or do you want to say I'm good. Don't worry about it for all of us

00:00:34   I reckon we can afford to say yeah, I'm good. You could I think do the ivory thing

00:00:39   but you know what I already subscribed to ivory and I still said I'm good because

00:00:43   It's a few bucks of my money. It's not that much money for me, but in aggregate that's a metric load for tapots

00:00:51   So and same thing for icon factory

00:00:54   So if you have even just a handful of dollars

00:00:58   that you can spare, why don't you say no refund please?

00:01:01   It would really mean a lot to them.

00:01:03   - Yeah, 'cause here's the thing.

00:01:04   If you don't go reinstall Tweetbot and Twitterific

00:01:07   and opt out of the refund, the default will be

00:01:11   that they're going to have this money taken

00:01:13   out of their bank accounts that's gonna be taken by them

00:01:17   and refunded to customers for whatever time

00:01:19   was left on their subscriptions.

00:01:21   because Twitter blew up.

00:01:24   So this is potentially a huge negative pull of money

00:01:29   out of these companies.

00:01:30   I mean, this could bankrupt people.

00:01:32   This is not a good scene.

00:01:34   And so if you can opt out of getting this refund,

00:01:38   please do so.

00:01:39   So go install Tweetbot or Twitterific again.

00:01:42   You might have deleted it already.

00:01:43   Go install it again.

00:01:45   Each one of them opens up to a similar screen

00:01:47   and just says, hey, here's the deal.

00:01:49   What do you wanna do?

00:01:50   If you do nothing, you will get a prorated refund

00:01:53   for any unused time on that subscription

00:01:55   that will come from the developers.

00:01:57   If you opt out, they will lose less money.

00:02:01   So please, go install these apps again

00:02:04   and opt out of those refunds if you can.

00:02:06   - I never uninstall it.

00:02:07   I actually put Twitter into my phone's dock,

00:02:09   which is an area that I don't use,

00:02:10   so it's just a little museum.

00:02:12   (laughing)

00:02:13   That little icon.

00:02:14   - How do you not use, like, it's--

00:02:16   - I know, seriously. - I don't find it

00:02:17   an easy place to reach.

00:02:18   It's the easiest place to reach.

00:02:20   - I don't think so.

00:02:21   The way I hold my phone, I find that incredibly awkward.

00:02:23   I've never put anything that I used in the dock,

00:02:25   which is, you know, whatever, kind of a shame.

00:02:26   It's always visible, but I just, I can't reach there easily.

00:02:29   - Are you like a center grip person,

00:02:31   not like a lower grip person?

00:02:32   - I guess so.

00:02:33   I mean, but I find it, I can't reach that.

00:02:36   I guess my grip is just up too high.

00:02:38   Anyway, I put Twitter effect in there,

00:02:40   'cause I just wanted to, you know, it's a place of honor,

00:02:42   and I just wanted to continue to see the icon, right?

00:02:44   I replaced it with ivory on my actual--

00:02:46   - It is a really nice icon.

00:02:47   - On my home screen.

00:02:48   I have a set to a different, a slightly different than,

00:02:50   you know, it's a customizable, anyway.

00:02:52   But then when they came out with this thing,

00:02:53   I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go do it and say

00:02:55   I don't need a refund.

00:02:56   And then I realized I don't have a subscription

00:02:58   because I'm on the beta, and the beta is just like

00:03:00   perpetually subscribed, you know what I mean?

00:03:02   But that didn't feel too bad because I think I paid

00:03:03   like $150 for Twitter for Mac, so when they had

00:03:06   the Kickstarter, so I'm good.

00:03:08   And I subscribed to icon factory's Patreon,

00:03:10   which you should do as well.

00:03:11   (electronic beeping)

00:03:12   - Let me ask you, Jon, what you doing

00:03:15   in your living room these days?

00:03:17   - Yeah, I had to find something to occupy my time

00:03:20   while I was trapped in a room with COVID.

00:03:23   I'm happy to say that today was the first day

00:03:25   since becoming infected that I tested negative.

00:03:28   Despite testing very, very barely positive

00:03:31   for like three days in a row,

00:03:32   today was absolutely 100% negative.

00:03:34   I'm zooming in on that picture.

00:03:35   I'm like, is there anything there?

00:03:36   Yep, nope, I'm 100% negative.

00:03:38   - I always like shine my phone flashlight on it,

00:03:40   like different angles, like can I see it at all?

00:03:43   - Yeah, so I'm well and truly negative today, that's great.

00:03:46   Hopefully I'll be negative tomorrow.

00:03:48   I'm still testing a little bit

00:03:50   'cause you gotta have multiple tests.

00:03:50   Anyway, watch him for that whole rebound thing.

00:03:53   We'll see how it goes.

00:03:53   But I needed something to do with my time.

00:03:55   And I did watch a bunch of movies

00:03:57   and a little bit of TV and a lot of YouTube,

00:03:59   but I needed something to do that was interesting.

00:04:02   And I was already in the midst of, I don't know,

00:04:05   thinking about this project.

00:04:08   I don't know how it happened.

00:04:09   Anyway, this project went into high gear

00:04:11   'cause I had nothing else to do.

00:04:12   And this project is to upgrade my sound system.

00:04:14   I know we've been talking about that on the show a lot,

00:04:17   and that's probably why it's been in the front of my mind.

00:04:19   I recently got a fancy new TV,

00:04:21   and with that I got a fancy new receiver

00:04:23   to connect to the TV,

00:04:25   and I got a fancy new Blu-ray player,

00:04:27   but one thing I didn't upgrade was my 5.1 speaker system,

00:04:30   which, you know, was cheap and old,

00:04:34   but well-reviewed when I got it.

00:04:35   It was like, I didn't even know if I wanted a 5.1,

00:04:37   so I'm like, I'm not gonna spend a ton of money.

00:04:39   Let me just get the, you know, best-reviewed,

00:04:42   tiny, inexpensive thing.

00:04:44   This was many, many, many years ago.

00:04:45   And so I've had that and it's fine,

00:04:48   but I have upgraded the rest of my system.

00:04:49   And now that part of it definitely looks like the weak link.

00:04:52   And so I've been looking for months now into

00:04:55   what could I possibly upgrade to that is nicer than this?

00:04:59   So that's what I did during my COVID time.

00:05:01   And it's trapped in my room for days and days on end

00:05:03   as I just looked on YouTube and read articles

00:05:06   and waded through audio file forums.

00:05:09   Those are always fun, right?

00:05:11   - No, no thank you.

00:05:11   - The whole nine yards just going everywhere,

00:05:14   trying to figure out for my weird test case.

00:05:16   I'll put a link in the show notes too.

00:05:17   I even talked about it on Mastodon

00:05:19   to see if anyone had any particular advice

00:05:22   or suggestions about my weird situation.

00:05:24   Unlike my television shopping,

00:05:26   I feel like my speaker shopping is not applicable

00:05:28   to most people because it's so specific to my room,

00:05:32   my house, my scenario, my limitations.

00:05:35   Whereas my TV is just like,

00:05:36   other than a size that fits in my thing,

00:05:38   it's just a big flat panel.

00:05:39   It's a good tea for everybody.

00:05:41   Speakers that I ended up getting,

00:05:42   probably not the best choice for everybody.

00:05:44   I don't even know if they're the right choice for me,

00:05:46   but things are on my way.

00:05:47   And so in a future episode of the show,

00:05:49   once everything has arrived and I've set it up,

00:05:51   I'll give the details and go through my whole process.

00:05:54   But for now, I just wanted to chime in and say,

00:05:56   I'm COVID-negative, yay.

00:05:57   And I spent all my time reading speaker reviews.

00:06:00   - That sounds fun.

00:06:02   I mean, whatever makes you happy, man, but.

00:06:04   - It did, it was surprisingly fun,

00:06:06   although also incredibly frustrating.

00:06:09   And again, half of that's on me.

00:06:10   See the Mastodon thread to see what I'm dealing with here.

00:06:13   - I feel like reading about speaker reviews,

00:06:16   I don't know, that's the--

00:06:18   - It's not easy, yeah, you're absolutely right.

00:06:20   And it's so much worse than TVs, let me tell you.

00:06:23   Because TVs, it's like almost everybody agrees

00:06:26   on what the objective measures are.

00:06:28   There are international standards,

00:06:29   there's equipment that will test compliance

00:06:32   with the standards, whereas speakers,

00:06:34   boy, it's rough out there.

00:06:36   Just, it's on the one end, you have people

00:06:38   who are writing poetry, it's like, okay,

00:06:40   this does not help me.

00:06:41   And the other end, you have people who are like,

00:06:43   taking objective measures,

00:06:44   but there's no sort of standardization on the,

00:06:47   like what tools you're using,

00:06:49   and does the thing that you're measuring matter at all

00:06:51   to the experience of having the speaker?

00:06:53   It's rough.

00:06:54   But you know, more on that when I get this all set up.

00:06:57   'Cause then I'll be able to tell you

00:06:58   if all that BS that I read ended up being helpful

00:07:00   or not helpful at all.

00:07:01   - I'm not trying to be funny, I'm genuinely asking,

00:07:06   Are you looking to stick with 5.1?

00:07:09   Are you trying to go full Atmos?

00:07:11   Is that really something that's--

00:07:12   - Did you see the thread on Mastodon?

00:07:13   - I saw that--

00:07:14   - Do you think I have room for more speakers?

00:07:16   (laughs)

00:07:17   - Oh well.

00:07:18   - I, the challenge I put to people that says,

00:07:20   where do you think 5.1 speakers should go in this room?

00:07:23   And nobody even ventured to guess,

00:07:25   like maybe one or two people, 'cause it's grim.

00:07:27   No, I do not have room for more speakers.

00:07:29   I have thought about where I could fit one or two more,

00:07:32   whether those be quote unquote height speakers,

00:07:34   or whether I would do side channels,

00:07:36   But for now, the problem was 5.1.

00:07:38   Replace an existing 5.1 with a better sounding 5.1.

00:07:42   So that's what I've gone with.

00:07:42   I have the capacity for more at any time,

00:07:44   but for now, that's what I'm sticking with.

00:07:47   - I don't think this is really on the table

00:07:49   for reasons beyond your control,

00:07:51   but are you willing to rearrange the room,

00:07:54   like the furniture within the room?

00:07:55   - No, I mean, I didn't want to go into that.

00:07:57   I masked it up, but room rearrangement,

00:08:00   we went through all the permutations for room rearrangement

00:08:03   like 20 years ago when we moved in.

00:08:04   This is it.

00:08:05   This is the room.

00:08:06   And honestly, I don't think many rearrangements make things

00:08:09   better except for the one where you block

00:08:10   the fireplace with the couch.

00:08:11   And that's not going to happen.

00:08:12   Well, alternatively, you could put the TV over the fireplace.

00:08:15   Yeah, as you know, that's not going to happen as well.

00:08:17   Do you use the fireplace?

00:08:19   No.

00:08:20   Have you thought about removing it?

00:08:23   People said that.

00:08:24   That's insane.

00:08:25   No, I'm not going to--

00:08:26   I guess the anti-fireplace lobby is big.

00:08:29   So I get back in the fireplace.

00:08:31   The fireplace is literally the best feature

00:08:33   of my crappy house.

00:08:34   I'm not getting, quote unquote, get rid of the fire.

00:08:37   It's a nice looking thing, it's a centerpiece.

00:08:40   If I would destroy the value of my home

00:08:41   if I got rid of it, then I like it.

00:08:43   I like it being there, I like looking at it.

00:08:45   Yet no, I don't let a fire in it.

00:08:46   - First of all, you have an old home

00:08:49   in a nice neighborhood in New England,

00:08:50   nothing will destroy the value of that home.

00:08:51   - No, you know what I mean.

00:08:53   It would reduce the value.

00:08:55   People wouldn't, and ours is a good fireplace.

00:08:57   It's not like one of those ones

00:08:58   where the people paint it over the brick.

00:08:59   Have you seen those?

00:08:59   Like at some point, someone got a hangover in the '60s

00:09:02   and they repaint it over the brick, so bad.

00:09:04   No, this is a good fireplace.

00:09:07   It is, you know, I have all of our family's pictures

00:09:10   are over it, if you remember when you were here, right?

00:09:12   There's the big mantle, which needs to be repainted

00:09:14   like everything else in my house.

00:09:15   But anyway, it's a very nice mantle.

00:09:17   It's got all our family pictures on the wall above it,

00:09:18   and it's a nice fireplace.

00:09:20   And I thought it's gonna be a big house seller

00:09:23   when it comes time to sell it.

00:09:24   And in the meantime, I like it looking like that.

00:09:26   So no, I'm not getting rid of the fireplace.

00:09:28   No, I'm not putting my TV over the fireplace.

00:09:30   No, I'm not putting one of those giant mechanical mounts.

00:09:32   We put the T-bar with the fireplace and it lowers down.

00:09:34   - That was my next question.

00:09:34   - Right, because then they would be

00:09:36   in the way of the pictures

00:09:37   and there'd be this big ugly mount.

00:09:38   All of those are out.

00:09:39   Luckily people, you know, didn't,

00:09:40   mostly took me at my word and said,

00:09:42   "Here's the room, no, this is what we've got to deal with."

00:09:44   But none of those things are happening.

00:09:46   So it's just a matter of working stuff.

00:09:48   And honestly, I wouldn't want them to,

00:09:49   because it's not a home theater room.

00:09:50   This is like the main living room of our house.

00:09:52   It needs to function first and foremost

00:09:54   as a room where people can exist

00:09:56   and, you know, have nice places to sit

00:09:59   and just hang out and they're just looking at their phones

00:10:02   or playing with the dog or reading or yes, watching TV,

00:10:05   but it is not a home theater room.

00:10:06   So it's not like let's rearrange the entire room

00:10:08   and brick over the fireplace and, you know,

00:10:11   take all your family photos off the wall

00:10:12   and put on a giant mechanical arm to put the TV,

00:10:15   no, that's not happening.

00:10:16   That's not what this room is for.

00:10:17   And that's why it's a challenge to come up with something

00:10:20   that is acceptable to everyone involved

00:10:22   within the draconian constraints of a 1930s house.

00:10:27   You should just, just move, man.

00:10:29   - Just remove the fireplace.

00:10:31   It's not hard to remove fireplaces, right?

00:10:33   You can just remove them.

00:10:35   - I would say just in general,

00:10:36   it might be healthy to think about the house

00:10:40   that you are spending the majority of your adult life in,

00:10:43   not as something you have to preserve

00:10:45   for whoever's buying it next,

00:10:47   but instead something that you should optimize

00:10:48   for the way you actually wanna live in it.

00:10:50   - Like I said, I like the fireplace too.

00:10:52   I like looking at it, I like how decorative it is.

00:10:54   It feels cozy, the whole room.

00:10:56   I even like the cruddy wallpaper

00:10:57   that everyone in my Hamlet family hates in that room

00:10:59   because I think it is cozy and comfy

00:11:01   and it is a comfortable room to be in.

00:11:03   I don't want it to,

00:11:04   I don't want that part of the room to change.

00:11:07   - Fair enough.

00:11:08   Hey man, it's your house, it's your rules.

00:11:10   I totally hear you.

00:11:11   I'm gonna give you a hard time about it forever

00:11:13   because that's what we do here,

00:11:14   but your house, your rules.

00:11:16   - And it presents an interesting challenge,

00:11:17   whether it's to the fancy Sony HT9,

00:11:20   which we're gonna talk about in a second,

00:11:21   or for a plain old 5.1 system

00:11:23   with a fancy room correction on the receiver

00:11:26   to come up with something that works okay

00:11:29   in that environment.

00:11:29   Not impossible, but tricky.

00:11:32   - Tricky indeed.

00:11:33   But that HTA-9, baby, I'm sure that'll fix your problems.

00:11:37   - Yeah, I just wanted one more bit of feedback from MCG,

00:11:40   another owner of the system.

00:11:42   They say, "I have the HTA-9 with the big sub

00:11:45   and can confirm that it's absolutely fantastic for movies

00:11:48   and no complaints when we use it for TV shows.

00:11:50   It is at its weakest for stereo music,

00:11:52   but tracks in Apple Music with Atmos are great.

00:11:54   As far as the complaints around dropouts,

00:11:55   I had some initially,

00:11:57   but the firmware updates have improved things.

00:11:58   I don't remember the last time it happened

00:12:00   and I have an era router right next to it.

00:12:01   Highly recommend these.

00:12:02   So that's the magic of software powered hardware.

00:12:06   There's always the hope that a quote unquote

00:12:07   firmware update will fix your problems.

00:12:09   And apparently, at least in the case of MCG, this happened.

00:12:12   So that's kind of the three stories

00:12:16   and three individual people.

00:12:17   One saying, you got to warn people off from this.

00:12:19   One saying, I've got it.

00:12:20   And sometimes it drops out, but mostly it's okay.

00:12:22   and one's saying, "I got it and it was bad,

00:12:23   "but now it's updated."

00:12:24   I don't know what the truth is, but there you have it.

00:12:27   The good thing is that all of them say,

00:12:29   "For its intended purpose of movies and TV

00:12:31   "with fake surround sound with speakers all over your room,

00:12:34   "it seems to work really well when it's working."

00:12:38   - When it's working.

00:12:39   We have a very deep cut,

00:12:41   and I promise I'm going somewhere with this.

00:12:42   Way in the beginning of the show, if you remember,

00:12:45   I don't recall which came first, to be honest with you,

00:12:47   but we had the Jonathan Mann theme song that you still hear,

00:12:50   And we also had the Who the Hell is Casey song.

00:12:54   ♪ Casey ♪

00:12:56   ♪ Who the hell is Casey ♪

00:12:57   ♪ Who the hell is Casey ♪

00:12:58   ♪ Who the hell is Casey ♪

00:13:00   Which was written by an actual real life friend of mine

00:13:03   whose name is Larry King.

00:13:05   Not the one you're thinking of, a different Larry King.

00:13:07   Well, this is relevant to you because his band,

00:13:10   he is in a blues band just for funsies.

00:13:12   You know, these people all have real jobs

00:13:14   and so on and so forth.

00:13:14   Not that being in a band isn't a real job,

00:13:16   you know what I'm saying, oh my gosh.

00:13:17   Anyway.

00:13:18   - We're podcasters for a living.

00:13:20   - Exactly, of anyone who should be throwing stones

00:13:23   on not having a real job, I am the last one on that list.

00:13:26   But anyway, he and his band did a parody of,

00:13:31   I forget the name of the original song,

00:13:33   but it's some like kinda,

00:13:36   almost honky-tonky kinda song, bluesy kinda song.

00:13:40   It was funny, the original was fine,

00:13:42   but they did it in the parodies Hot Rod Rivian.

00:13:46   And so the entire band did their music video for this song

00:13:50   playing in a field somewhere with all of the equipment being powered by an R1T. You know,

00:13:55   just plugged into the back of the R1T, into the AC outlets. So my buddy Larry King writes,

00:13:59   "Our sax player has a Rivian. We recorded this all while plugged into the Rivian. About

00:14:03   three hours of playing took about 3% of the battery. His tuba fits in the frunk. The video

00:14:08   was cheesy. I had nothing to do with the editing, but I did engineer all the audio." This is

00:14:12   worth, even if it's just a few seconds of your time, it is worth it because I thought

00:14:16   it was very well done and it gave me quite a good laugh. And my friend Larry King, who is the guitarist,

00:14:21   is the one standing on the gear tunnel door, which I thought was also quite funny. So it is absolutely

00:14:27   not required viewing, but it made me laugh. And like I said, this is a deep, deep cut back to Who

00:14:31   the Hell is Casey from way back when. We'll link all of these things in the show notes.

00:14:35   I would also point out that if you're picturing a tuba, you are probably actually picturing a

00:14:39   sousaphone. If you're picturing the giant thing with the giant belt that goes over the person's

00:14:44   head as they stand and walk with it, that is a sousaphone, not a tuba. That would

00:14:49   not fit in a Rivian frunk. An actual tuba that was played in

00:14:54   orchestras is a very differently shaped instrument, and it's good to hear that it

00:14:58   fits in the trunk, but that is less surprising than you might be

00:15:01   thinking if you don't know the difference between a tuba and a sousaphone.

00:15:03   Thank you, this has been Marching Band Trivia. You took my joke! I was just gonna

00:15:07   say, tell me you were in marching band without telling me you were in marching band.

00:15:12   Alright, I would like to briefly defend my honor, or at least attempt to.

00:15:15   The whole of the internet has written to me to explain to me that because I don't want yellow,

00:15:21   I am part of the problem, and that fun colors can be fun.

00:15:26   Yes, fun colors can be fun.

00:15:29   But there are fun colors, and then there is yellow.

00:15:32   There are other fun colors.

00:15:33   Orange can work. Purple, when done properly, can work on a car.

00:15:37   Yellow cannot. And that is the rules. I don't make the rules. It's just the way it is.

00:15:41   But my point is just that just because I don't like yellow

00:15:43   Well first of all doesn't mean that you can't as much as I joke

00:15:46   But secondly there are plenty of other colorful things my car is now blue

00:15:50   Let's not forget it didn't happen to me this time the white didn't happen to me this time

00:15:54   Your car is not a fun blue though. Oh

00:15:56   Pish posh it's a fine blue. I don't dislike it, but it was no one would look at that color blue and say boy

00:16:02   That's a fun blue. They would just say oh, it's blue. Yeah fun blues have to be lighter. Yeah, all right all right

00:16:07   - All right, I'll allow it, I'll allow it.

00:16:08   - Or like fun in some other way, like, you know,

00:16:10   pearlescent, sparkly, or, you know,

00:16:12   turn purple in different angles of light.

00:16:14   There's lots of things you can do that are fun.

00:16:15   - All right.

00:16:16   - Your blue is just blue.

00:16:17   It's a very nice blue.

00:16:18   It's a handsome blue.

00:16:19   - Well, all right, I will allow it.

00:16:20   But my point is just that, please, internet,

00:16:22   just because I don't like yellow

00:16:24   doesn't mean I don't like fun colors.

00:16:25   I mean--

00:16:26   - Yellow is one of the most fun colors, though.

00:16:28   - Yeah, objectively.

00:16:29   - There are other fun colors that you like,

00:16:31   but it's almost like you dislike the funnest

00:16:33   to use Apple's parlance.

00:16:35   dislike the funnest of fun colors. What's more fun than yellow? Maybe purple? I don't

00:16:41   know.

00:16:42   You've mispronounced ugly many, many times. You're pronouncing it as fun, but it's actually

00:16:45   pronounced ugly.

00:16:47   American market cars—I don't know the rest of the world, I think it's probably the same—but

00:16:51   American market cars are all available in black, white, silver, gray, dark gray, light

00:16:57   gray, metallic gray, differently gray, slightly bluish gray, slightly greenish gray, slightly

00:17:02   reddish gray, there's a million different grays,

00:17:04   whites, and blacks.

00:17:05   - So true.

00:17:06   - And then you're lucky if maybe there's like a red

00:17:09   or a blue, and then that's it.

00:17:11   There's like almost every car is available

00:17:13   in that selection.

00:17:14   A whole bunch of grays, whites, and blacks,

00:17:16   and maybe red and/or blue, and that's it.

00:17:18   - Or if you're willing to pay $200,000 or more for a car,

00:17:21   you can get really cool colors.

00:17:22   - Right.

00:17:23   - Each of which is a $10,000 extra.

00:17:25   - Right, but the point is like,

00:17:26   I have the opportunity here to get a fun color,

00:17:31   And most cars don't offer that opportunity.

00:17:34   Even my Land Rover is--

00:17:36   I have the Tasman Blue color, which is, I think,

00:17:41   the only remotely fun color Land Rover offers.

00:17:44   It's really conservative, though.

00:17:46   It's very close to a gray blue, if there was such a thing.

00:17:51   It's a very restrained blue.

00:17:53   And it's a very nice color.

00:17:54   I think it's by far the nicest color

00:17:56   that the Defender is available in.

00:17:57   But it is very restrained.

00:17:59   Rivian Yellow, by all accounts and by all

00:18:01   the videos I'm trying to watch about how it looks in real life actually looks fun.

00:18:05   And the Rivian Blue is pretty fun too. I think the yellow is more fun. And then Rivian's

00:18:11   also available in all those boring colors. I don't want to be boring. I want to, like,

00:18:15   you know, how often in life do you buy cars? It's not that often.

00:18:19   Well, I mean, I can hear you, it seems like a lot pretty often.

00:18:23   Well, exactly. Well, but yeah. But, you know, for the most

00:18:25   part, this is a relatively infrequent big purchase. I like to mix it up sometimes. I

00:18:29   I like to have more color in my life recently,

00:18:31   and this is the way to do it.

00:18:34   - You know, and as I said to you in the post show,

00:18:36   and I think the bootleg might have still been running,

00:18:38   I don't recall, but it was certainly not

00:18:40   in the release show, I did feel a little guilty

00:18:42   for pooping all over your yellow idea,

00:18:45   because just because it doesn't work for me

00:18:46   doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

00:18:48   It is very much not my thing, but if, you know what,

00:18:52   if it's your thing, that's okay, so you do you.

00:18:54   - I still feel like Rivian should be sued

00:18:55   for their picture on their website,

00:18:56   which looks nothing like any of the photos

00:18:58   of this thing in real life, almost still to the point

00:19:01   that I have a trouble believing they're trying to say

00:19:02   it's the same color that all those owner's pictures are,

00:19:04   but boy, those pictures on the website,

00:19:06   they're worse than Apple, 'cause sometimes Apple's photos

00:19:08   of their subtly brown or subtly rose-colored things

00:19:11   are different than in real life, but that car picture

00:19:15   is nothing like the car in the photos that people take,

00:19:18   so I feel like if anyone buys based on the website picture

00:19:21   and then their car shows up and it's like big bird yellow

00:19:24   and they thought it was gonna look like the website,

00:19:25   I feel bad for them.

00:19:26   They can sell their car to Marco.

00:19:28   - It's also worth pointing out that yellow

00:19:30   is Rivian's accent color.

00:19:32   So no matter what color you get a Rivian in,

00:19:34   there is little yellow bits all over the place,

00:19:36   and so it makes sense to go with a color

00:19:39   that works really well with that.

00:19:41   - That is an annoyingly good argument.

00:19:43   - Right, and I think the second best color

00:19:46   they have overall is the blue,

00:19:48   but I don't think the blue works as well

00:19:50   with the yellow as I would like.

00:19:52   It works okay.

00:19:53   - I think the green looks better than the blue

00:19:55   'cause it's very foresty.

00:19:56   Honestly, I think the one that looks the nicest,

00:19:59   second to the yellow, is one of the grays.

00:20:02   They have one of the grays that I saw in a review video

00:20:05   that actually looked very nice with the yellow accents,

00:20:07   but it was too boring for me, so I'm going yellow.

00:20:09   - Right.

00:20:10   Adam One has some feedback and clarifications on iMazing,

00:20:15   which I believe we were talking about

00:20:16   with regard to backing up iMessage stuff.

00:20:18   Adam writes, "iMazing doesn't jailbreak the phone.

00:20:20   "It uses a backup file made saved

00:20:22   "to the local file system of a Mac

00:20:24   to extract the data to export.

00:20:27   The software lives entirely on a Mac.

00:20:29   There are no hooks into the iPhone itself.

00:20:30   Amazing is super handy for local backups, too,

00:20:32   if you don't want to use iCloud.

00:20:34   It works over Wi-Fi and USB.

00:20:36   You can also customer-store phones

00:20:37   to only have some of the data from a backup file.

00:20:40   It was handy when I wanted to customer-store to my new iPhone

00:20:43   and pull over all my iMessage history,

00:20:45   which is not synced via iCloud, to my --

00:20:47   you know, atoms isn't --

00:20:49   to my new phone while leaving all the cruft

00:20:50   from my old phone.

00:20:52   That allowed me to have the best of both worlds,

00:20:54   a fresh install and the benefit of a specific long-term data that I cared about."

00:20:58   I think that's actually a really clever idea, to be honest with you, because I'm still carrying

00:21:01   my original 3GS build of memory serves from way back when.

00:21:05   And most of the reason I haven't started afresh is because I didn't want to lose all that

00:21:10   iMessage history, because I also have not turned on iMessage in the cloud or whatever

00:21:13   they're calling it.

00:21:14   So that's a very clever idea.

00:21:15   Anyway, Adam continues, "When extracting messages from the backup, you can export them out as

00:21:19   text files or PDFs.

00:21:20   That can be super handy for legal cases and business needs."

00:21:23   That said, it's pretty buggy and sometimes doesn't work,

00:21:25   so you have to restart the Mac and phone periodically

00:21:27   to get things working again.

00:21:28   Overall, it has been worth having the tool

00:21:30   to help me manage my data without using iCloud.

00:21:32   So, there you go.

00:21:33   Jon, tell me about your Apple TV remote with Touch enabled.

00:21:36   We're disabled?

00:21:37   Enabled.

00:21:38   Tell me about it, one way or the other.

00:21:39   - Yeah, so I had disabled it because I was sick of

00:21:41   thinking that I was accidentally moving my thumb

00:21:43   a millimeter and causing the Apple TV to freak out,

00:21:46   and it really just wanted to eliminate it as a factor,

00:21:48   so now when I hit the center button on the Apple TV remote

00:21:51   and it does something ridiculous, I can say,

00:21:53   "Well, it's not because of the touch pad,

00:21:55   "because I turned that off."

00:21:56   It's a setting and Apple TV setting things

00:21:59   where you can make it so it just does clicks.

00:22:01   And I had it that way for a little bit,

00:22:03   and I was using it, and I was, of course,

00:22:04   swiping on the pad and realizing it doesn't work,

00:22:06   and then going to use the little D-pad thing.

00:22:08   But there is a fatal flaw with this arrangement,

00:22:11   at least the fatal flaw when I was trapped

00:22:12   in my room with COVID.

00:22:13   When I'm trapped in my room,

00:22:16   you learned how much my family needs my help

00:22:18   to use the equipment in the house,

00:22:19   because they just rely on me to do everything.

00:22:21   So they're FaceTiming me and texting me

00:22:24   and yelling up at me,

00:22:26   I can't do this thing on TV.

00:22:27   How do you do that or whatever?

00:22:29   And here's a place where I tried to help them remotely

00:22:32   and I couldn't.

00:22:33   And so I had to have them re-enable touch.

00:22:36   What do you think it was?

00:22:37   - Oh, I have no idea.

00:22:39   Do they do the scrubbing thing?

00:22:42   No, that uses the--

00:22:43   - So much more fundamental than that.

00:22:45   Think really, think about how bad Apple TV is.

00:22:48   - Scrolling?

00:22:49   - No, okay, here we go.

00:22:49   So they were trying to use an app on the Apple TV,

00:22:52   and of course it doesn't work,

00:22:55   and what happened was the app was so hosed

00:22:57   that it was just plain frozen.

00:22:59   And you could go back to the home screen,

00:23:01   and then you could go back to the app,

00:23:02   and I think they know how to do that,

00:23:03   but it didn't matter,

00:23:04   'cause when you come back to the app,

00:23:06   it just wouldn't do anything.

00:23:07   It was just absolutely 100% locked up frozen,

00:23:09   no button did anything, right?

00:23:11   You could not play, you couldn't go back,

00:23:12   you couldn't go forward, you couldn't do anything.

00:23:14   They needed to force quit that app.

00:23:16   And they said, how do we force quit?

00:23:20   Force quitting isn't working.

00:23:21   And I realized I had a disabled touch.

00:23:23   Normally, you go to the multitasking switcher

00:23:25   by hitting the little TV looking button twice.

00:23:27   And then you pick the app you want and you swipe up.

00:23:29   Did they know that?

00:23:29   Because no one knows that.

00:23:31   Oh, they know that because we have Apple TV.

00:23:33   And they see me do it all the time because these apps--

00:23:35   it's not the first time an app is locked up on the Apple TV,

00:23:37   let me tell you.

00:23:38   Or sometimes it just gets into a wonky mode

00:23:40   and you need to force quit it.

00:23:42   This is force quitting the correct way,

00:23:44   which is when the app you're trying to use no longer works,

00:23:47   force quit that sucker and try to get it to work.

00:23:50   And there may be a way to force quit

00:23:52   without using the touchpad.

00:23:53   In fact, there has to be, there has to be a way.

00:23:55   But when I'm trapped up in my room with COVID

00:23:56   and my family's yelling at me,

00:23:58   I just said, just re-enable touch.

00:24:00   - I'm gonna guess by the way, it's probably,

00:24:02   I bet when you're in the multi-asset switcher

00:24:03   and you're over the app, instead of swiping up,

00:24:05   I bet if you like press or hold one of the buttons,

00:24:08   maybe like the play pause button.

00:24:09   - I had them do that.

00:24:11   I mean, I made a couple of good guesses.

00:24:13   Yeah, I made the, I tried holding up.

00:24:15   I tried having them hold the main button down.

00:24:18   Like I'd had them try to do a whole bunch of stuff

00:24:20   that's what I would have done if I was there.

00:24:22   Whatever it is, after one or two guesses of me trying to say

00:24:25   let's try this, like the thing you just suggested

00:24:27   and a few others, those didn't work.

00:24:29   And so I had to just give up and say,

00:24:30   just re-enable the touch.

00:24:32   I didn't bother Googling to find out the answer.

00:24:34   I'm sure if there's a way to force quit

00:24:35   without touch enabled, someone will tell us

00:24:37   and we'll put it in a follow up next week.

00:24:38   But there you go, an essential feature

00:24:40   of the Apple TV remote that you need touch

00:24:43   to be able to do unless you know how to do it

00:24:45   without touch, which I don't.

00:24:47   - Fun.

00:24:48   - Force quit, the most important feature on the Apple TV.

00:24:50   - Oh, I'm an Apple TV apologist, I feel bad.

00:24:54   - How many times have you had your family

00:24:56   trying to watch TV and the app freeze is solid?

00:24:58   - Well, all right, I'm gonna answer your question

00:25:01   by saying I know for a fact that Declan knows

00:25:05   how to do this very dance.

00:25:07   - Wow.

00:25:08   - Oh yeah.

00:25:09   - I mean, he is eight now.

00:25:11   He needs to force quit everything because he's a youngster.

00:25:12   Right.

00:25:13   Yeah.

00:25:13   They just, they just need to go through and just, uh, by, by matter of course,

00:25:16   what's it, it's like their idle animation.

00:25:18   It just, you put any device in their hand and then they're bored.

00:25:21   They just go, quote unquote, force quitting those photos of applications

00:25:26   last launched a year ago, but it's really important to swipe those upwards.

00:25:29   My, my, my parents do it and they, and they'd say, I know these aren't

00:25:33   running apps.

00:25:34   I know they're just pictures.

00:25:35   I just like to not have the pictures there, which as I said in the past, not

00:25:37   having the pictures there is a legit user need

00:25:40   that is not being met by Apple, but that is combined.

00:25:43   Not having the pictures there and force quitting applications

00:25:45   are both the same thing as far as the UI is concerned.

00:25:49   Some of them you're force quitting,

00:25:51   but most of them you're removing pictures.

00:25:53   - Do people know, by the way,

00:25:55   the Apple Watch version of force quitting?

00:25:58   Do people know that?

00:25:59   - I bet you do.

00:26:00   - It's funny you bring that up

00:26:01   because I just tried to do this the other day.

00:26:03   What was it?

00:26:03   I don't remember, but I thought,

00:26:05   and you're gonna correct me,

00:26:06   I thought it was hold down on the bigger of the two buttons,

00:26:09   I forget what that's called.

00:26:10   - Hold down the big button until you get the lock screen,

00:26:13   then it'll hold in the crown for a couple seconds

00:26:14   and it kills the app.

00:26:15   - That's what I thought.

00:26:16   Maybe I was doing something wrong,

00:26:17   maybe I was holding it wrong, who knows,

00:26:18   but at the time it was not working.

00:26:20   And it was--

00:26:21   - You also, you can go into the app switcher

00:26:23   by hitting the side button and then just swipe to the left

00:26:25   so that it gets a little card out of the way.

00:26:27   That's a faster way to do it.

00:26:29   - I don't think I knew that one actually,

00:26:30   that's interesting.

00:26:31   Huh, well now I've learned something.

00:26:33   - Real time follow up from the chat room,

00:26:35   apparently force-quit without touch enabled,

00:26:37   is double tap up, like on the D-pad, tap, tap.

00:26:41   - Interesting. - Instead of swiping upwards,

00:26:42   instead of holding upwards, double tap up quickly.

00:26:45   Haven't tried this, haven't confirmed,

00:26:46   but that is what the chat room says.

00:26:48   - I mean, I would believe it, but yeah, that's still crummy.

00:26:51   By the way, did anyone else in the house

00:26:54   come down with COVID?

00:26:56   - Nope, so far, no, and since I'm negative,

00:26:57   I think we're probably in the clear.

00:26:59   - Nice. - So my isolation

00:27:00   and constant reading of speaker reviews

00:27:03   seems to have worked.

00:27:04   You have done the family a service.

00:27:06   I see how it is.

00:27:07   All right, some more information about the Apple TV.

00:27:10   I don't want to read this

00:27:11   'cause I like the Apple TV, darn it.

00:27:13   David Bokeh writes, "I wanted to let you know

00:27:15   that Apple's own apps are not immune to bad behavior.

00:27:17   I was watching The Last of Us on HBO via the Hulu app,

00:27:20   and my daughter had to step out of the room, so we paused.

00:27:22   I then started watching a show on Apple TV+.

00:27:24   My daughter came back and I switched back to Hulu.

00:27:27   When The Last of Us was over,

00:27:28   and I switched back to my Apple TV show

00:27:29   and found that the playhead was 23 minutes

00:27:31   further into the Apple TV+ show.

00:27:33   than when I left it.

00:27:34   It kept playing while I was in the Hulu app.

00:27:36   I wonder if they are also getting bad metric data on usage

00:27:39   and if this is more widespread.

00:27:41   - This is another fun thing of like, you know,

00:27:43   should an application be able to play

00:27:46   when it's not showing anything on the screen?

00:27:49   Seems like something that shouldn't happen.

00:27:51   It seems like a pretty baseline level of competence.

00:27:53   Like the app that is not filling the screen

00:27:56   with its image should not be playing,

00:27:58   but apparently it was.

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00:29:56   (upbeat music)

00:29:59   So we have a little bit more about the diabetes

00:30:03   and blood glucose monitoring.

00:30:06   Jenga writes, "Because I work in tech,

00:30:08   "I was able to pay out of my own pocket

00:30:10   "for a continuous glucose monitor,

00:30:12   "in my case the Dexcom G6,

00:30:14   "which cost me about 170 pounds per month,

00:30:17   "or about $205, or approximately 2,000 pounds,

00:30:21   "or roughly $2,400 a year.

00:30:23   "Every year, forever."

00:30:25   Yikes.

00:30:26   So the cost of an Apple Watch that could theoretically do this would be peanuts compared to the existing

00:30:32   ones on the market.

00:30:33   Yeah, yeah, definitely.

00:30:35   Scott Jen writes, "The Freestyle Libre continuous glucose monitor costs on the order of $300

00:30:41   and it lasts for two weeks and needs to be completely replaced and it gives you a glucose

00:30:45   reading every 15 minutes and has a buffer of something like six hours.

00:30:48   So as long as you copy the data to your phone every few hours, you don't miss anything and

00:30:51   it uses NFC.

00:30:52   You just tap your phone on it and it copies the data.

00:30:54   They're also prescription only in the US,

00:30:57   so you may have to pay for a doctor visit as well.

00:30:59   The price of a watch is absolutely worth it

00:31:00   to save pricking your finger, get continuous data,

00:31:03   or not needing to bother a doctor every two weeks.

00:31:06   For all three, if Apple can pull it off, it's a no-brainer.

00:31:09   - Yeah, the price of a lot of these

00:31:11   continuous glucose monitors are really expensive

00:31:13   for multiple reasons.

00:31:14   One, they're a quote-unquote prescription product

00:31:18   that has a market that has tons of regulation in it,

00:31:21   so there's not a lot of competitors.

00:31:22   And two, all those regulations that they have to comply with

00:31:26   do end up making the product cost more money

00:31:29   because it's very difficult.

00:31:30   It's become slightly less difficult, I think, over time,

00:31:32   but very difficult to actually comply

00:31:33   to be a certified medical device

00:31:35   that could kill people if it malfunctions.

00:31:37   And so you pay for that privilege.

00:31:38   And then also a bunch of the other ones,

00:31:40   they have consumables, like the little patch you put on.

00:31:41   Those patches don't last forever.

00:31:43   They last like 10 days or whatever.

00:31:44   And if you're lucky, they last 10 days.

00:31:46   And then you gotta peel them off

00:31:47   and you gotta put a new one in

00:31:48   because they just wear out.

00:31:49   Like the sticky stuff wears out and the thing,

00:31:50   they're not supposed to be in that long, right?

00:31:52   So there's consumables with things that are invasive,

00:31:55   as in they shove something under your skin.

00:31:57   And then they're just expensive.

00:31:59   All that stuff is expensive because it's not

00:32:02   like a competitive consumer electronics market type thing.

00:32:05   It's more of a medical device.

00:32:06   It's like if you ever tried to buy good quality crutches

00:32:10   or good quality walker or a good quality wheelchair,

00:32:13   that stuff's really expensive too.

00:32:14   And that is much lower bar in terms of compliance

00:32:17   and regulation than one of these devices.

00:32:19   The other thing is that we didn't really mention last time

00:32:21   Because the thing that Apple is trying to come up with is a thing that would monitor

00:32:26   your glucose levels.

00:32:29   But they're not coming up with a way to put insulin into your body without it.

00:32:33   A non-invasive insulin injection system would be even more fantastical.

00:32:37   So based on that information, you will need to get insulin into yourself somehow.

00:32:43   And whether that's the old-fashioned shots or the fancy insulin pumps that go under your

00:32:49   skin or into your body whatever and then dispense the correct amount of insulin

00:32:52   that's still gonna be there and that's why I still say like the you know if you

00:32:57   had a fantasy scenario curing diabetes would be ideal so you don't need

00:33:00   anything shoved into your body but eliminating one half of that which is to

00:33:05   not have to shove things into your self somewhere to get blood glucose readings

00:33:11   would be fantastic for a lot of people and then the cost of these are expensive

00:33:14   things means that even though a watch would be expensive it would still be

00:33:17   cheaper. My point last time about the cost of the watch is that this is a

00:33:21   non-invasive thing in theory that Apple comes up with and unlike the invasive

00:33:26   ones where I feel like not that people are happy to pay them but I think people

00:33:29   kind of understand that hey if you're getting something that shoves itself

00:33:31   under your skin and that there's a bunch of regulations around that because it's

00:33:35   a you know it's a more invasive device than a watch versus the thing you just

00:33:39   put on that has some sensors in it right that's why I feel like Apple would be

00:33:43   experiencing price pressure because they did come up this miraculous thing people

00:33:47   would expect it to be less expensive because it is less invasive, right?

00:33:50   In the same way that the blood oxygen monitor you can buy from CVS is inexpensive because

00:33:55   the Tekken is not complicated and it's quote unquote non-invasive.

00:33:57   It clamps on your finger but it's literally just a little light, right?

00:34:01   And people are going to see the Apple Watch and say I don't care about titanium, I don't

00:34:04   care about the quartz crystal glass, I don't care about the fancy processor that can, you

00:34:09   know, do all these amazing things, I just want the tiny sensor and the algorithm that

00:34:12   you came up with and I don't want to pay $500 for it.

00:34:14   So that's why I feel like there would be price pressure on Apple to make that innovation

00:34:18   available more widely, even though all those same people are still paying either out of

00:34:24   pocket or with a little bit of help from insurance way more money for the invasive system, simply

00:34:28   because I think it is more reasonable for an invasive system to cost more because it

00:34:32   is more fraught, let's say, more complicated.

00:34:36   Whereas if you come up with a non-invasive solution, it seems like it should be less

00:34:38   expensive unless it uses like, you know, whatever crystals from Star Trek to get the measurements.

00:34:44   - Is that what you're saying?

00:34:44   - There you go, thank you.

00:34:46   - And a few other things in the diabetes

00:34:48   and glucose monitoring that we heard,

00:34:49   we had a lot of feedback from a lot of people

00:34:51   who know way more than we do about this,

00:34:53   including many people with diabetes,

00:34:55   people who have worked on equipment for diabetes

00:34:57   and things like that, and so obviously, again,

00:34:59   our audience comes through really nicely

00:35:01   with a lot of very deep, specialized knowledge.

00:35:05   So thanks for all that.

00:35:06   And a few of the highlights that we didn't cover yet,

00:35:08   basically, there's many different ways

00:35:11   to measure blood glucose even with the existing sensors.

00:35:14   I was wrong about something, I wanna follow up,

00:35:16   that the continuous glucose monitors,

00:35:18   I said they have a half inch needle sticking out,

00:35:19   they have to stay in your skin the whole time.

00:35:21   Turns out, it doesn't stay in your skin the whole time,

00:35:23   that it basically inserts a little wire into your skin,

00:35:26   and that little wire stays in your skin the whole time,

00:35:28   but the needle just pops right out.

00:35:30   - Lots of people will send that information,

00:35:31   it's like, I understand that that is technically correct,

00:35:34   but it's not like people's objection is to,

00:35:36   oh, I don't want a needle in my skin, I want a little tube.

00:35:39   - Well, it's, I was happy,

00:35:41   'Cause when my dog had to wear one of those,

00:35:43   it was the freestyle Libra or whatever,

00:35:46   when he had to wear one of those,

00:35:47   I was so, I felt so bad for him

00:35:49   that he had this thing in him the whole week

00:35:52   that it was in there.

00:35:52   - He does, it's just not a needle.

00:35:53   It's just a different thing.

00:35:54   - Right, but it's at least not as bad.

00:35:57   - I know, but the point is, all these things,

00:36:00   the reason they're called invasive

00:36:01   is because they shove something into your skin.

00:36:04   And yes, a needle helps it get there

00:36:05   and then the needle goes away maybe, right?

00:36:07   But the thing is still in your skin.

00:36:09   That's why it's invasive.

00:36:10   So it's not like when you prick your finger,

00:36:12   which is horrible for its own reason,

00:36:14   you prick it with a needle, but then the needle goes away

00:36:16   and then you just squeeze blood out of your finger,

00:36:18   which sucks, right?

00:36:19   But the things that go under your skin,

00:36:21   whether there's a needle involved or not,

00:36:22   something is under your skin the whole time that it's there.

00:36:24   And the whole point is that thing that's under your skin

00:36:26   is very small, very light, not pointy, very slippery,

00:36:29   like it's made to be as comfortable as possible,

00:36:31   but there's still something under your skin.

00:36:33   So everyone was very quick to say,

00:36:34   there's not a needle under your skin,

00:36:35   there's something else under your skin,

00:36:36   but forget about that, it's not a needle.

00:36:38   I agree, it's better than a needle,

00:36:40   but it's still quote unquote invasive

00:36:42   because there's something sticking into you.

00:36:44   - Yeah, but I think one, so there were two big themes

00:36:47   of feedback that I found unexpected that just I didn't know.

00:36:50   So one of them is that those continuous monitors

00:36:54   are not measuring in the bloodstream directly.

00:36:57   They're measuring in like subcutaneous,

00:36:59   like you know, skin and tissue layers.

00:37:01   And so it actually is kind of a delayed

00:37:03   or like less precise measurement.

00:37:05   And secondly, I assume once I heard

00:37:08   that insulin pumps existed,

00:37:10   and that continuous monitors existed,

00:37:11   I assumed that what most, at least type one people

00:37:14   with diabetes were doing was having the monitor

00:37:17   automatically dose the insulin pump,

00:37:20   creating what is called an artificial pancreas effectively.

00:37:24   And it turns out, based on the feedback,

00:37:25   it sounds like that's not actually that common.

00:37:28   And there's actually this whole world of hacking,

00:37:30   where people are like hacking the monitors' radio protocols

00:37:34   to intercept the data and run the pump possibly manually

00:37:38   or at least get the data out so it's less proprietary

00:37:40   or whatever else, that's a whole world

00:37:42   that I didn't know about.

00:37:43   But basically, if you think about the risk factors here,

00:37:46   if somebody with diabetes gives themselves

00:37:48   too much insulin, they die.

00:37:51   And too little insulin, I don't know if you can die

00:37:54   from too much blood sugar, you probably can at some point,

00:37:56   but at least it has other problems.

00:37:58   - It has very terrible health effects

00:37:59   and it will eventually kill you.

00:38:00   I'm not sure if it kills you as fast

00:38:02   as overdosing on insulin.

00:38:03   - Yeah, it has other problems at least,

00:38:04   but yeah, have too much insulin and you're dead.

00:38:06   And so this is something that you don't want to be left

00:38:10   to a system that is potentially flaky or imprecise.

00:38:13   And there's obviously huge high bars to clear

00:38:16   for anything that is approved for medical use

00:38:20   to do automatic dosing.

00:38:21   And so there's the separation of like,

00:38:24   are you gonna have monitoring?

00:38:26   And if you don't wanna go full artificial pancreas mode,

00:38:29   which has those big risks, you can have monitoring,

00:38:33   but you just use that as like information

00:38:36   to decide for yourself how much insulin to dose.

00:38:39   - This kind of reminds me of the AI copyright thing.

00:38:42   Like, I really do wonder if that really absolves anyone

00:38:45   from any kind of responsibility.

00:38:46   It's like, well, our insulin pump didn't kill you.

00:38:49   You're a faulty measurement with some other device

00:38:52   from another manufacturer.

00:38:52   You're a lousy pinprick with your little test strips

00:38:55   or whatever.

00:38:56   It was your choice, person, to decide to dose yourself

00:38:59   with this much insulin.

00:39:00   So technically, you made the mistake, not us,

00:39:02   and our insulin pump isn't at fault.

00:39:04   But then they would say, okay, but then what about,

00:39:07   whatever system I use to measure my blood glucose level,

00:39:11   the point of that system is it's supposed to give me

00:39:13   an accurate measure that I can take action based on

00:39:15   and it gave me a wrong measure or a bad measure.

00:39:17   So somebody's responsible somewhere because it's not as if

00:39:20   the person magically knows their own blood glucose level.

00:39:22   They're using some kind of tool or product they bought

00:39:25   from somebody that is supposed to be for that purpose.

00:39:28   And I kinda understand the pump people not getting

00:39:30   went into it, but they're like, hey, we're just a pump.

00:39:31   We just do whatever you tell us.

00:39:33   Like, if you typed in these numbers, we're gonna do that.

00:39:35   And as long as we did what you told us, we're not liable.

00:39:38   But somebody's liable.

00:39:40   And so, whether that's the resistance

00:39:41   to the closed loop thing, or it's, you know, like,

00:39:43   so I feel like just because the person made the choice

00:39:47   to enter that into the pump,

00:39:48   if the company that makes the pump

00:39:50   also makes the thing that gave them the measurement

00:39:52   that made them type that in,

00:39:53   putting a person in the middle

00:39:54   doesn't like absolve anybody from responsibility.

00:39:56   I feel like it's still just a question of

00:39:58   who is negligent here, or whose product malfunctioned.

00:40:01   Well, and so that's why I think what Apple

00:40:05   is most likely to do, if they can get this to work

00:40:08   and therefore be able to be made into a product feature,

00:40:12   I think that what they will probably do,

00:40:15   at least first and possibly forever,

00:40:18   is similar to what they've done.

00:40:19   If you look at the heart monitoring features

00:40:21   and things like that, they're not really meant

00:40:23   for people who have chronic heart problems

00:40:26   for the most part.

00:40:27   It's not giving you high-end diagnoses,

00:40:30   it isn't giving you a lot of real time,

00:40:32   actionable information that you need

00:40:33   if you have special heart needs.

00:40:36   It is giving you kind of an overview

00:40:38   and warning of extreme conditions.

00:40:40   And so I think what they're going to do here

00:40:42   is actually design, again, assuming this feature

00:40:45   even ships eventually, actually design it

00:40:49   so that it is not very useful to a person with diabetes.

00:40:53   Because of the inherent imprecision

00:40:56   in what they're probably going to do

00:40:58   compared to anything that's actually

00:40:59   measuring your blood, and combined with the delay

00:41:02   that it would probably have based on being,

00:41:06   being probably based more like the continuous ones,

00:41:08   where like you're not seeing everything

00:41:09   exactly as it happens, I bet what they're going to do

00:41:12   is delay the stats from it.

00:41:15   The same way right now with the ovulation detection,

00:41:18   they give you, they give you ovulation detection

00:41:20   like after the fact.

00:41:21   They look at your temperature pattern, you know,

00:41:24   over the last whatever, and they tell you after the fact,

00:41:27   oh by the way, it looks like you ovulated or whatever.

00:41:29   Remember when they launched a feature last fall

00:41:32   with the Watch Series 8, they called it something like

00:41:34   retrospective something something.

00:41:36   I bet they're gonna start with that, with this feature,

00:41:39   where they might not tell you right now

00:41:42   your blood glucose is this, but they might tell you

00:41:46   here's what your blood glucose was 12 hours ago

00:41:48   or six hours ago and then let you build data from that

00:41:51   of like, oh okay, whatever I had for lunch,

00:41:53   that probably was a bad idea or whatever.

00:41:55   And then secondly from that, maybe they will also warn you

00:41:58   of extreme conditions.

00:41:59   So if it's way too high or way too low,

00:42:02   maybe they'll tap you and alert you of that.

00:42:04   But I don't see them getting into the real time

00:42:07   glucose monitoring business in version one, if ever,

00:42:12   just because once you realize what that involves

00:42:15   with FDA clearance and legal liability

00:42:18   and the risk of people's lives if it goes wrong,

00:42:21   I don't think Apple's gonna wanna get into that that far.

00:42:24   I think they're gonna wanna hit the more broad

00:42:27   health benefits of extreme condition monitoring

00:42:30   and kind of delayed glucose monitoring

00:42:32   so that you can make different decisions

00:42:35   about maybe your diet or your habits or whatever,

00:42:38   but you're not using this thing to replace

00:42:42   a medical device that you actually need

00:42:43   if you actually have diabetes.

00:42:46   - Finally, I made a kind of offhanded comment,

00:42:50   I almost said yesterday, last week

00:42:52   with regard to Sono's stuff,

00:42:54   and my impression at the time was that

00:42:56   unless you add the Amazon Lady in the tube to your Sonos setup,

00:43:02   then that you couldn't call out like,

00:43:05   "Hey, Dingus, play mute math," or whatever the case may be.

00:43:09   And I have been corrected a couple of times.

00:43:11   I think Dan Provost was actually the first person to say something.

00:43:14   It turns out this is possible,

00:43:15   and I will link to the Sonos voice control information page,

00:43:20   like marketing page, on their website.

00:43:22   I only had the chance to try this very briefly,

00:43:24   and honestly, it was a little bit hit or miss.

00:43:25   But I had thought incorrectly that all you could do

00:43:29   was move stuff between, move music or audio between rooms,

00:43:34   say join audio here and there or stop,

00:43:37   volume up, volume down, et cetera.

00:43:38   But it turns out you can actually call out a request

00:43:40   and it will do its best to play that request

00:43:44   from Spotify, Apple Music, whatever the case may be.

00:43:47   So that is my mistake and you should look into this

00:43:49   a little more if you're at all interested.

00:43:52   - My poor Google Home had a rare instance

00:43:54   of Siri brain the other day I said, you know, okay, dingus lights out.

00:43:58   And it waited a little while and it said something very serial.

00:44:02   Like was like, uh, lights out is not available for playing right now or something.

00:44:06   Something as if it was looking for that song called and there's gotta be a

00:44:09   thousand songs called lights out.

00:44:10   So maybe it just couldn't connect to the internet or whatever, but it was like,

00:44:13   oh man, what's going on?

00:44:14   It's just hanging out with Siri too much.

00:44:15   Normally it's just does what I ask immediately.

00:44:17   And it gave me a C and so I asked Siri to do it.

00:44:20   That's why you gotta have multiple cylinders because you never know when

00:44:23   - One some cylinder is gonna betray you.

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00:46:07   - So let's see here.

00:46:12   There has been, speaking of betraying,

00:46:14   There's been a big brouhaha over the last couple of days

00:46:18   after Joanna Stern and Nicole Nguyen,

00:46:22   I hope I pronounced that someone close to correctly,

00:46:24   they wrote a bit of a bombshell article

00:46:27   and as always with Joanna Stern,

00:46:29   had a genuinely stellar video associated with it.

00:46:32   She is so good on video.

00:46:33   It kind of makes me mad that she can be so good in print

00:46:37   and also so good in video, it's not fair.

00:46:40   But anyway, there's been a lot of reporting done around this,

00:46:45   mostly by Joanna and Nicole,

00:46:47   and the problem is a lot of people,

00:46:52   particularly in bigger cities,

00:46:53   particularly outside bars, particularly in the evening,

00:46:55   particularly presumably after having

00:46:56   a couple of alcoholic beverages,

00:46:59   they're finding that their iPhones are getting stolen,

00:47:01   which in and of itself stinks,

00:47:03   but it's happening subsequent to the thief

00:47:08   part of the thief's crew shoulder surfing their passcode. So said differently, you know, I'm out

00:47:15   at the bar, I type in my 12345 password or passcode, somebody sees me do that and then

00:47:22   later on in the evening grabs my phone knowing full well that my passcode is 12345. This is a

00:47:29   big freaking problem because that means that the second they get the phone they can, you know,

00:47:37   change your iCloud password, they can turn off Find My Phone, and many many other things. They

00:47:44   can send themselves money with Venmo, PayPal, or Cash App. They can go into your banking app,

00:47:49   and oftentimes they can go ahead and send themselves money from there. You know, once you

00:47:53   have your passcode, they have control over biometrics, they can change the biometrics and

00:47:57   remove the biometrics, etc. It's really really bad. So reading from the article, "With only the iPhone

00:48:04   in its passcode, an interloper can, within seconds, change a password associated with

00:48:07   the iPhone owner's Apple ID. This would lock the victim out of their account, which includes

00:48:11   anything stored in iCloud. The thief can also often loot the phone's financial app, since

00:48:15   the passcode can unlock access to all the device's stored passwords. This is, as a side,

00:48:20   this is particularly bad when you're using iCloud Keychain, which I'm not trying to say

00:48:23   that iCloud Keychain is bad, but if you've already got the key to your iOS kingdom, then

00:48:28   you've gotten, you know, you have access to this interloper, as I said, has access to

00:48:33   your iCloud keychain and then you're off to the races.

00:48:36   Continuing from the article,

00:48:37   a similar vulnerability exists

00:48:38   in Google's Android mobile operating system.

00:48:41   However, the higher resale value of iPhones

00:48:42   makes them a far more common target,

00:48:44   according to law enforcement officials.

00:48:46   And a lot of times there'll be a story like this,

00:48:50   and everyone get up in arms, "Oh, look at this,

00:48:52   "Apple is just not even caring, not even trying."

00:48:54   I don't think that's what this is at all.

00:48:56   I think this is just a crummy set of circumstances.

00:48:59   Like I'm all for slagging on Apple

00:49:01   if they are being negligent,

00:49:03   but I don't personally think that's the case here at all.

00:49:06   I mean, there's only but so much they can do

00:49:08   if somebody has grabbed your passcode and your phone.

00:49:12   Like, I think there, and we'll talk about

00:49:14   some mitigation strategies here in a second,

00:49:16   but I don't think this is negligence on Apple's part.

00:49:19   And the problem is, as with all things,

00:49:24   the more secure you make things,

00:49:26   the less convenient they tend to be.

00:49:29   And some of these fixes that we'll talk about here

00:49:32   a minute, make some stuff less convenient. And Apple has to ride the fine line between

00:49:38   making it easy enough for a power user like me, who is maybe willing to have a much harder

00:49:42   time doing things or willing to jump through more hoops, versus my parents, who are not

00:49:48   dumb by any means and are pretty tech savvy for being nearly 70 years old. But nevertheless,

00:49:54   they don't want to have to jump through 3,000 hoops in order to do a lot of the stuff that

00:49:59   a passcode requires.

00:50:00   So, I don't know, this does not strike me

00:50:02   as one of those things where it's a brouhaha

00:50:06   made out of nothing, but it also doesn't strike me

00:50:09   as Apple being negligent either.

00:50:10   I don't know, how should we think about this?

00:50:12   - I think it's kind of like a historical hangover,

00:50:15   don't you feel like?

00:50:16   'Cause, I mean, remember when the iPhone first came out,

00:50:18   there wasn't even a passcode, you just slide

00:50:19   the little thing on the bottom and it unlocks.

00:50:21   Different age, obviously, right?

00:50:23   And then for a long time when they had the passcode feature,

00:50:26   it was short and most people didn't use it,

00:50:28   And we've kind of worked our way up from there.

00:50:30   And I feel like, well, first of all,

00:50:33   this vulnerability has existed for ages.

00:50:35   This is not a new thing or whatever.

00:50:37   And I think the reason it's existed

00:50:38   is because they ended up in a situation

00:50:40   where the passcode, this thing,

00:50:42   first there was nothing, then there was passcode,

00:50:44   and then passcode got bigger.

00:50:45   And then we just built up

00:50:46   this whole big security infrastructure,

00:50:48   but the passcode was always there.

00:50:50   And I think they just let it go.

00:50:53   Things that were okay years and years ago,

00:50:54   like having no passcode, were allowed to live too long.

00:50:57   And I think the thing that was allowed to live too long here

00:50:59   is that the unlock code from your phone

00:51:03   can do just one or two too many things.

00:51:06   Because yes, it unlocks your phone or whatever.

00:51:08   But the fact that you can do stuff

00:51:11   like change your Apple ID password from your phone

00:51:13   without knowing the old Apple ID password,

00:51:15   as long as you know the passcode, seems like a bit much.

00:51:18   And you could say, oh, that's actually good

00:51:20   because people forget their Apple ID password

00:51:21   and they can change it from the phone.

00:51:22   Like I understand the utility of that feature,

00:51:24   but it seems like something

00:51:25   that sort of accidentally happened

00:51:26   because the keys to your iCloud kingdom

00:51:29   where your passcode was when they added iCloud to phones

00:51:31   and then you had your passcode to unlock it.

00:51:34   And it just seemed like,

00:51:35   "Well, why would we make them enter their password?

00:51:36   They're already on their quote unquote trusted device

00:51:37   and they know their passcode,

00:51:39   so we shouldn't ask them for any more."

00:51:41   But certain things are irreplaceable.

00:51:44   And the thing that really gets me about this

00:51:46   is not even so much people stealing money

00:51:48   or sending stuff.

00:51:49   Like there's a lot of the times you can go through fraud,

00:51:52   you can have a file fraud request with the bank

00:51:53   and if it's a credit card or whatever.

00:51:56   Yeah, you might lose some money, but in general,

00:51:58   it's actually more difficult than you think

00:52:00   to take huge amounts of money from someone

00:52:02   without giving them any recourse,

00:52:04   especially in the age of credit cards

00:52:06   and all that other stuff, right?

00:52:08   And even with debit cards,

00:52:09   it's hard to transfer large amounts

00:52:10   without firing up a flag

00:52:13   or having your bank stop it or whatever.

00:52:14   The thing that really kills me about these thefts

00:52:17   is if someone gets your phone

00:52:19   and can use your little passcode to change your Apple ID

00:52:22   and to lock you out of your Apple ID,

00:52:23   and often if they lock you out

00:52:25   And even if the thief gets caught and arrested

00:52:28   and goes to jail or whatever,

00:52:29   you may still never get your Apple ID back

00:52:31   because the whole point of the security

00:52:32   is that Apple doesn't have a magic internal key

00:52:34   to unlock all your stuff.

00:52:35   If they change your password

00:52:37   or they deleted everything from your thing or whatever,

00:52:39   you may never get that Apple ID back.

00:52:41   And what's associated with the Apple ID?

00:52:43   Photos, your family photos.

00:52:45   I think the person in the video lost their phone

00:52:47   and they lost 15 years worth of photos, right?

00:52:50   And for most people, that's the only place they have them.

00:52:52   I know if you're listening to this show,

00:52:54   Of course you have 17 copies of your iCloud photo library

00:52:57   and it's on backups and it's on a time machine,

00:52:59   it's on your Synology, it's on an external disk,

00:53:00   it's, you've backed up the back place,

00:53:02   but you're not like most people.

00:53:04   Most people, like, it's literally just quote unquote

00:53:06   on their phone.

00:53:07   They think it's safe, it's like, oh,

00:53:09   I dropped my phone in a lake a year ago

00:53:10   and I got a new phone and all my pictures are still there

00:53:12   and it just gives them this amazing confidence

00:53:13   that their pictures are safe.

00:53:15   Well, if a thief gets your phone

00:53:16   and they change your Apple ID password,

00:53:18   you may never see those photos again.

00:53:20   If you don't have those photos anywhere else, that's it.

00:53:23   They're gone, they're still there in some S3 server

00:53:27   somewhere, but they're protected by a password

00:53:29   on an iCloud account that you're never gonna get back.

00:53:32   And that is terrible, that is not replaceable.

00:53:34   You can't file a fraud request or whatever

00:53:39   with your bank to say, "Hey, someone stole my thing."

00:53:42   No one can give you those pictures back.

00:53:44   So yes, that's why you should have backups,

00:53:45   but also that's why the sort of iCloud, Apple ID takeover

00:53:50   is something that should not be possible

00:53:52   by shoulder-shuffling somebody's 1234 unlock code.

00:53:55   'Cause that's a bridge too far.

00:53:57   Yes, they can take over your phone.

00:53:58   Yes, maybe they can get into your apps,

00:54:00   although the good banking apps will require face ID

00:54:02   and won't let you use a passcode.

00:54:04   Yes, maybe they'll get into your passwords or whatever,

00:54:07   but they're in this type of situation

00:54:08   where it's a race then for you to quickly change

00:54:10   all your passwords or log everybody out

00:54:12   of all of your things or whatever.

00:54:15   But none of those things are as,

00:54:16   they're all annoying and terrible

00:54:18   and can really screw with your life,

00:54:19   but none of those things are as valuable

00:54:20   as your whole lives were the photos of all your kids.

00:54:23   Like people who are, you know, much younger than I am,

00:54:26   the only photos they have are digital photos.

00:54:28   And all those photos are on their phone

00:54:30   and they're not making backups

00:54:31   'cause who the heck make backups?

00:54:32   Or they think the iCloud is their backup.

00:54:33   Well guess what, when someone owns your Apple ID

00:54:36   and you can't get that Apple ID back ever,

00:54:38   all those photos are gone, gone.

00:54:40   If you're lucky, maybe you have a Mac

00:54:41   where you have a local cash copy of them

00:54:43   and if you're lucky you know how someone knows enough

00:54:45   to how to get them back without, you know,

00:54:47   getting locked out of your Apple ID

00:54:48   when it tries to sync with iCloud.

00:54:50   Like, it's grim, right?

00:54:52   So I feel like the passcode on your phone

00:54:56   should not allow you to be owned that hard.

00:54:59   Particularly, you should not be able to take over

00:55:04   an Apple ID because you know 1234.

00:55:07   And the sort of the authentication where they say,

00:55:10   well, it's two factor, we'll send you a thing.

00:55:11   Well, they're gonna send it to your phone

00:55:12   and not SMS, Apple has their own like two factor thing.

00:55:16   Like that's gonna let them get through too.

00:55:17   but I feel like you should have to know your password

00:55:20   to reset your password.

00:55:23   Now, I'm sure someone who works at Apple support

00:55:25   is gonna say, "We can't do that.

00:55:26   "If we did that, no one would ever be able

00:55:27   "to reset their password."

00:55:28   Because they forget their password

00:55:31   and they wanna use their phone to get out of it.

00:55:33   There needs to be an easier way.

00:55:34   So I feel for Apple in this situation, but,

00:55:37   and one more thing, this is why Touch ID and Face ID

00:55:42   are great, because they let you not have to enter

00:55:44   your unlock code.

00:55:45   They can't steal your face or your fingerprint as easily.

00:55:48   So far, thieves haven't figured that out,

00:55:49   but shoulder surfing your one, two, three, four is trivial.

00:55:52   Right?

00:55:53   In a crowded bar, you have no idea who's over your shoulder,

00:55:55   your screen's lit up or whatever.

00:55:57   And it's like, why would anybody type in their passcode?

00:55:59   Well, what if you're wearing a mask?

00:56:00   What if Face ID doesn't work

00:56:02   because you're wearing a scarf or a hat or someone's like,

00:56:06   especially in the age of COVID and all these masks,

00:56:08   even though yes, Face ID supposedly works with a mask.

00:56:10   Sometimes it just doesn't unlock.

00:56:12   Sometimes you just want to check out the grocery store

00:56:14   and it doesn't read with your mask

00:56:15   and you just do enter passcode and you type it in, right?

00:56:17   Being shoulder surf is more of a risk now than before,

00:56:20   but all of those technologies, face ID and touch ID,

00:56:22   and improving them and making them work with masks

00:56:24   is a mitigation against this kind of attack,

00:56:27   because it is harder for run-of-the-mill thieves to do that

00:56:30   than it is for someone to look over your shoulder

00:56:32   and see your passcode.

00:56:33   So I feel like what Apple has to do here

00:56:35   is what they've already been doing,

00:56:37   which is keep working on methods of authentication

00:56:40   that are not typing in a stupid code

00:56:42   that's too short or whatever,

00:56:43   'cause no one types the really long one,

00:56:45   we'll get to that in a second.

00:56:46   And then also, if at all possible,

00:56:50   make it so that you cannot solely with the phone

00:56:53   and one, two, three, four,

00:56:55   lock someone out of their Apple ID for good

00:56:57   by changing their Apple ID password.

00:56:59   That's how you lock somebody out.

00:57:00   If you change their password now,

00:57:01   they don't know the password, but you do,

00:57:03   they're never gonna get back in again,

00:57:04   and all their photos belong to you.

00:57:06   - Yeah, I think what we can do in the short term

00:57:10   is raise awareness of this vulnerability,

00:57:13   because, like I was on the talk show

00:57:15   and I said some of this already,

00:57:17   so forgive me if you heard both.

00:57:19   What came as a huge surprise to me

00:57:22   is that you can change an Apple ID password

00:57:25   if you have the passcode to a logged in phone.

00:57:27   That, I had no clue that was possible.

00:57:30   And there's a mitigation of that,

00:57:31   which we'll get to in a second.

00:57:33   But that's good that we know that now.

00:57:35   Because I think most people,

00:57:38   as you're going through John's history of the universe there

00:57:40   of like, you know, before we had passcodes and everything,

00:57:43   Most people don't fully realize how much is at risk

00:57:48   if somebody takes over your entire Apple account

00:57:50   and has one of your logged in devices.

00:57:53   There is so much at risk now in your life, if that happens,

00:57:57   that I feel like we have to treat that pretty carefully.

00:58:00   We have to guard that very well.

00:58:02   The same way we would guard the possessions in our house.

00:58:07   Hey, lock the door at night, that kind of thing.

00:58:10   But most people, I don't think, treat their phone

00:58:13   with that level of security, and especially their passcode,

00:58:17   because most people just think if you know the passcode,

00:58:21   oh, I guess you get to play on my phone

00:58:22   without me knowing it, if you steal my phone also.

00:58:25   But you don't also think you are going to be able

00:58:28   to take over my entire Apple account

00:58:29   and also lock me out of it.

00:58:31   So I think it's useful, like what I've done in this,

00:58:35   in response to this, of learning this,

00:58:37   is I've gone back to an alphanumeric passcode,

00:58:40   like a password, because I had left it during COVID

00:58:44   because I kept having to go grocery shopping with masks

00:58:46   and this was before Face ID with mask support

00:58:48   and so it was a huge pain in the butt.

00:58:50   And so I switched back to a numeric code for that.

00:58:54   But now I switched back to the password style code

00:58:56   because number one, it's more secure,

00:58:59   but number two, and I think this is the bigger one,

00:59:03   When I'm entering a password into a password field,

00:59:07   I kind of just automatically, inherently treat it

00:59:11   like something more secure physically

00:59:13   to the world around me.

00:59:14   So I'm not gonna like type in a password into my phone

00:59:18   in a way that I think other people can easily overlook,

00:59:21   you know, look over my shoulder and see it

00:59:22   or see it from across the room or whatever.

00:59:24   You know, I might hold the phone closer to me.

00:59:26   I might just not do it for that time

00:59:28   and just put it back in my pocket and do it later.

00:59:29   You know, I would take better physical precautions

00:59:34   kind of automatically or habitually

00:59:36   when something looks like a password

00:59:38   as opposed to this, you know, a six digit code

00:59:40   that you type on these giant buttons

00:59:42   and it's so easy to do that you do it a million times a day.

00:59:45   You know, most people who I see typing in their passcode,

00:59:49   you know, on a routine basis,

00:59:51   usually it's people who don't routinely let Face ID

00:59:55   or Touch ID work for them.

00:59:57   Either it doesn't work for them

00:59:59   or they just instantly go to type in the passcode

01:00:01   because it has failed them in the past

01:00:03   and they don't trust it anymore.

01:00:04   And when your passcode is really easy

01:00:08   and it's just a couple of numbers to type in,

01:00:10   it's easier to get into that habit.

01:00:13   If your passcode is a password that's non-trivial,

01:00:17   then you're gonna be much more likely

01:00:20   to rely more on the biometrics whenever possible.

01:00:23   And if the biometrics aren't working for a long time

01:00:26   and you're having to type in your password all the time,

01:00:27   Maybe instead of just abandoning a face ID,

01:00:29   maybe you'll like retrain face ID, like reset it,

01:00:32   or something like that.

01:00:33   Because that's a huge problem.

01:00:36   I don't know if Apple's ever going to really get

01:00:39   everyone to trust the biometrics,

01:00:41   but one of the best things they can do

01:00:44   is make the biometrics work for more people.

01:00:47   And I don't just mean make it possible to work,

01:00:49   I mean make them compelling so that there are fewer

01:00:52   and fewer people over time who refuse to use them

01:00:55   and just type in there, you know, one, two, three, four,

01:00:57   every time they open their phone.

01:00:59   Because if the passcode has,

01:01:01   because of the amount of power the passcode has,

01:01:04   that again, most people don't realize,

01:01:06   but the amount of power the passcode has,

01:01:08   Apple needs to really try as much as,

01:01:12   and I know they do, but as much as they possibly can

01:01:16   to try to make sure no one is sticking with typing in

01:01:18   one, one, one, one, one, you know, a thousand times a day

01:01:22   in all kinds of places in public

01:01:24   every single time they take their phone out.

01:01:26   - Yeah, that's why the face ID with mask is so important.

01:01:28   Like yes, as we talked about when they did it,

01:01:29   does decrease the security,

01:01:31   there's less of a face that you're identifying or whatever,

01:01:33   but it is still preferable to people typing in 1234, right?

01:01:38   And alphanumeric passcode,

01:01:39   like that is in our list of mitigations here,

01:01:41   that's the first one on the list,

01:01:43   that's a definite mitigation.

01:01:44   It's harder to shoulder surf,

01:01:46   whether it's because of your body posture,

01:01:47   like Margot said, or just because of the plain fact

01:01:49   that presumably your alphanumeric passcode is not 1234.

01:01:52   Like just making it not on American doesn't solve

01:01:54   any problems other than giving you a tiny keyboard

01:01:56   to type on, you actually have to make it longer

01:01:58   and more complicated.

01:02:00   Of course nobody wants to do that.

01:02:01   So this is the most difficult solution

01:02:04   and if you go with the Marco solution,

01:02:05   it was like that's a perverse incentive,

01:02:07   I hate it so much, I will avoid it whenever possible

01:02:09   and I'll use biometrics.

01:02:11   As we talked about in the past,

01:02:12   apparently old people can't use Touch ID

01:02:14   'cause their fingerprints are too non-consistent,

01:02:18   which is rough, but I think Face ID should work

01:02:21   about as well for everybody, including older people.

01:02:25   So, you know, but again, it's just a question of like,

01:02:27   oh, well, it failed me once or twice

01:02:29   and now I give up on it 'cause it's newfangled.

01:02:30   'Cause people blame themselves,

01:02:31   especially people who are less familiar with technology,

01:02:33   they blame themselves.

01:02:34   They think I'm doing something wrong.

01:02:35   It makes me feel bad when I stare at this rectangle

01:02:39   and it just blinks at me and gives me some kind of error

01:02:41   that I don't understand.

01:02:42   It makes me not wanna do that

01:02:43   'cause I feel like I'm failing.

01:02:45   I'm failing to use the device, right?

01:02:47   And that doesn't feel good.

01:02:48   And it's like, well, you know what?

01:02:49   I could type one, two, three, four every single time.

01:02:51   It's I'm familiar with the touchpad button.

01:02:53   It's a technology that was created in my lifetime

01:02:54   when they went from rotary dial to touch tone dialing.

01:02:58   I made that transition when I was 30

01:03:00   and now I'm comfortable with it.

01:03:01   And so I'm not even gonna bother with Face ID.

01:03:03   And it is Apple's challenge to get those people on board.

01:03:06   And every time they make Face ID faster

01:03:08   for it to work on more angles,

01:03:10   for it to work with a mask on,

01:03:11   like that is all an attempt to get those people on board.

01:03:14   You're not gonna get everybody all the time,

01:03:15   but that's why I commend Apple's efforts

01:03:17   to try to make Face ID the go-to option,

01:03:22   despite the fact that, like I said,

01:03:23   I think they should clamp down on the power of the passcode,

01:03:27   which I feel like is just sort of an inherited advantage,

01:03:30   because in the beginning, that's all there was,

01:03:32   and now there's so much more,

01:03:33   but the passcode has retained its power.

01:03:35   It's retained the keys to the kingdom,

01:03:37   and maybe it's time to think about taking them away.

01:03:40   The second mitigation here

01:03:41   is use a different password manager.

01:03:43   This is for the mitigation

01:03:44   on people not getting your passwords.

01:03:45   It doesn't help with your Apple ID,

01:03:46   because again, the passcode is gonna give you access

01:03:48   to that, right?

01:03:49   But if you don't want it to have all the passwords

01:03:51   to all your different websites,

01:03:53   don't use Apple's iCloud Keychain

01:03:56   because once they get into your Apple ID,

01:03:58   they have access to your iCloud Keychain,

01:04:00   which is where your passwords are

01:04:01   and they can look them all up.

01:04:02   I mean, someone could shoulder surf

01:04:05   your one password password as well,

01:04:06   but again, presumably that's harder depending if you,

01:04:08   you know, presumably you have

01:04:09   the long alphanumeric thing for that.

01:04:11   That is an advantage of having, you know,

01:04:14   having sort of a, not putting all your eggs in one basket,

01:04:18   the disadvantage is that it's a little bit more complicated

01:04:20   and potentially more costly than using the Apple solution.

01:04:23   So I'm glad Apple builds in iCloud Keychain

01:04:25   and I'm glad they continue to enhance it

01:04:28   and support the timed authentication code stuff

01:04:32   and cloud syncing and eventually pass keys.

01:04:35   All that's great, but if someone cracks your Apple ID,

01:04:39   they own all that stuff too.

01:04:41   - Yay.

01:04:42   - And then the final thing that you can do

01:04:44   to mitigate this, which is what I've actually done.

01:04:46   And I think pretty much everybody listening

01:04:48   to the show should do, 'cause there's not a lot of downsides

01:04:50   and it directly addresses the vulnerability is,

01:04:53   we'll get to this in the after show, I suppose,

01:04:55   but to use this screen time feature,

01:04:57   which is a feature to try to limit people,

01:05:00   presumably in a family,

01:05:02   how much time they spend in various applications.

01:05:04   You can add content restrictions.

01:05:05   It's like, oh, this is for kids,

01:05:06   so they're not on YouTube late at night.

01:05:08   Ha ha, what kid would do that?

01:05:10   But as the family organizer or whatever they call it,

01:05:15   or even as an adult, you can enable screen time

01:05:18   on your own phone, whether it's to try to train yourself

01:05:20   not to use Twitter too much,

01:05:22   which we talked about in the past,

01:05:23   it's not much of an issue anymore,

01:05:25   or whatever it is you wanna do.

01:05:26   You can set up screen time on your own phone

01:05:28   and put limits on it.

01:05:28   And it's like, well, why would I wanna do that?

01:05:30   What's the point of that?

01:05:31   You know, it might be a fun thing for you to do

01:05:34   to shape your own habits,

01:05:37   But also, you can add a screen time passcode,

01:05:40   which is mostly, you would think that's mostly there

01:05:41   so the kids can't go to the settings and screen time

01:05:44   and like disable all their prescriptions

01:05:45   'cause they don't know your screen time passcode.

01:05:47   Well, guess what?

01:05:48   Your screen time passcode can be different

01:05:51   than your phone's unlock code.

01:05:53   So what you do is you go into screen time,

01:05:55   you enable it in settings screen time,

01:05:57   and then you set a screen time passcode

01:05:59   and make it different than your phone passcode.

01:06:02   I think it's limited to four digits, so it's not great,

01:06:05   but set a screen time passcode that you will remember

01:06:09   and make it different than your phone lock thing.

01:06:10   On your own phone.

01:06:11   Now obviously, what's the point of that?

01:06:12   You can always unlock it,

01:06:14   'cause if you get annoyed by something, you know,

01:06:15   setting, you can just go into screen time

01:06:17   and disable the passcode, 'cause you'll type,

01:06:18   it'll say, okay, you wanna turn off the passcode,

01:06:20   type it in, and you'll type it in, and it will disable it.

01:06:22   It's not to stop you, it's to stop the thief.

01:06:25   And then the final thing you do is,

01:06:27   in setting screen time,

01:06:28   go to enable content privacy restrictions.

01:06:32   That's like the big switch at the very top of the screen.

01:06:34   And then after you turn that on, all the options below it

01:06:37   in the screen will be enabled.

01:06:38   Scroll, scroll, scroll until you see an option

01:06:41   called account changes, and you wanna change that

01:06:43   to don't allow.

01:06:44   So you're using screen time to stop your,

01:06:47   quote unquote, yourself from doing one specific thing,

01:06:50   which is making changes to your account.

01:06:53   Once you do that, then if the thief gets your phone

01:06:56   and they unlock it with your passcode

01:06:59   that they shoulder surfed, when they go to change

01:07:01   your Apple ID password, it will say,

01:07:03   uh-uh-uh, screen time says you're not allowed

01:07:05   to make a change just to your account.

01:07:07   And if they go try to disable screen time,

01:07:09   it'll say please enter your screen time passcode,

01:07:10   which they did not shoulder surf from you

01:07:12   because why are you ever gonna be entering

01:07:14   your screen time passcode ever

01:07:15   because the only restriction you put on it

01:07:17   is account changes, right?

01:07:19   Now, there may be ways around screen time restrictions.

01:07:23   Clever thieves will figure it out.

01:07:25   Clever thieves will get your stuff no matter what.

01:07:27   Like it's tough, but like the run of the mill thief

01:07:30   will be thwarted by an additional four digit code

01:07:32   that they don't know.

01:07:34   And so until and unless it becomes well-known

01:07:36   how to get around this particular restriction of screen

01:07:38   time, you can stop someone from totally taking over your Apple

01:07:41   ID by enabling screen time, setting a passcode on it,

01:07:43   and then turning off account changes.

01:07:46   Oh, and by the way, when you do this, when you set the thing,

01:07:49   it will prompt you and it will say,

01:07:50   hey, do you want to be able to use your Apple ID to unlock

01:07:56   screen time in case you forget the screen time passcode?

01:07:59   It's not obvious from the UI what you have to do here.

01:08:01   is like, oh, it's making me enter my Apple ID.

01:08:04   Isn't that just gonna,

01:08:05   because once a thief has your Apple ID with your passcode,

01:08:07   can't they just disable the screen time thing that way?

01:08:10   What you have to do is you have to hit cancel

01:08:11   when it prompts you to do that.

01:08:13   It seems like you're saying

01:08:14   you're canceling the whole operation, but you're not.

01:08:15   You're just canceling this part.

01:08:17   When you hit cancel, it prompts you and says,

01:08:18   are you sure you wanna have a screen time passcode

01:08:21   and you don't wanna have a way

01:08:23   to get around that screen time passcode with your Apple ID?

01:08:26   Because if you forget the screen time passcode,

01:08:28   it could be bad for you.

01:08:29   So like, don't, you know, write it down somewhere.

01:08:31   don't put it in iCloud Keychain where the thief can get it

01:08:34   'cause they own your Apple ID.

01:08:35   Put it somewhere else.

01:08:37   And you just hit cancel on that and that prompts you

01:08:40   and you have to put like skip or whatever.

01:08:42   And so then you'll have a screen time passcode

01:08:44   that is not in your iCloud Keychain, don't put it there.

01:08:47   Don't put it in a secure note

01:08:49   because they can unlock that with your passcode.

01:08:50   Don't put it in the notes app, put it somewhere else.

01:08:54   And it's only four digits, but it could save your butt.

01:08:56   - Yeah, I did all this this morning

01:08:58   when I saw the show up in the show notes.

01:09:00   I have tried to put fairly straightforward descriptions

01:09:04   of how you do this in the show notes.

01:09:08   And so, in the show notes that you guys can see,

01:09:10   sorry, the one I was talking about earlier

01:09:12   is the one only the three of us can see.

01:09:14   So anyway, we have stuff in the show notes for you folks,

01:09:17   and hopefully that will be helpful.

01:09:20   I mean, again, it's what is your threat threshold, right?

01:09:25   Like if you don't go to bars,

01:09:27   if you're never around people,

01:09:29   and maybe you don't need to do all these mitigations,

01:09:31   but I don't know.

01:09:33   I'm not a bar-going kind of fellow,

01:09:36   but nevertheless, I immediately returned

01:09:39   to using an alphanumeric passcode.

01:09:40   I had been using one for a couple of years,

01:09:42   maybe even a few years,

01:09:43   and then it was in the last year or two,

01:09:46   maybe it was during the mask thing

01:09:48   like Marco was talking about,

01:09:49   I really honestly don't remember,

01:09:50   but at some point I went to a six-digit passcode.

01:09:53   Well, now I'm back in the alphanumeric,

01:09:54   and then I did all these screen time protections as well.

01:09:57   And then I'm not an iCloud keychain person.

01:09:59   Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it,

01:10:01   but I am a one-password kind of person.

01:10:04   So obviously that's what I'm using

01:10:06   for all of my banking passwords and things like that.

01:10:08   So I feel better protected now than I was before.

01:10:13   But yeah, this is alarming and it's tough

01:10:15   because what is Apple supposed to do?

01:10:17   Like there are instances where people forget

01:10:20   their Apple ID passwords.

01:10:22   And then what are they supposed to do at that point?

01:10:25   from Apple's perspective, they have a device

01:10:28   that has been logged, you know,

01:10:29   you have logged into that device, so to speak,

01:10:31   you know, you've unlocked the device,

01:10:33   why not let the person do that?

01:10:35   You know, well, why shouldn't they let them

01:10:37   change their own Apple ID?

01:10:38   And obviously we just described why not,

01:10:39   but oof, it's a tough, it's a tough nut to crack,

01:10:42   and I don't know what the right answer is.

01:10:44   - Yeah, and if you have a Mac, by the way,

01:10:45   like basically the passcode to your Mac

01:10:47   is the password to your Mac account,

01:10:48   so you can still change your Apple ID password

01:10:50   if you forget it from your Mac,

01:10:52   because you'll enter your,

01:10:53   it'll prompt you for your Mac password.

01:10:55   And I think you can do it from the web

01:10:56   through various techniques as well.

01:10:58   You have recovery codes.

01:10:59   Like there's lots of other ways around this.

01:11:01   Even if you do this, this is just protecting your phone.

01:11:04   So if someone shoulder surfs your Mac account password

01:11:06   and it's an admin account, you're also kind of owned as well.

01:11:09   That I feel like is, you know,

01:11:12   like again, if you're in a coffee shop on your laptop,

01:11:14   typing in your Mac's password

01:11:17   and then someone shoulder surfs that from you

01:11:19   and takes off with your laptop, you have a similar problem.

01:11:22   Maybe a similar mitigation, but you know.

01:11:25   Anyway, the thieves suck, be careful out there.

01:11:28   - Yeah. - Also, I wanted to issue

01:11:29   a small correction to what I said on the talk show,

01:11:32   so I guess this is auto follow out.

01:11:34   (laughing)

01:11:36   - Oh no. (laughing)

01:11:38   - So I, you know, we were talking about this,

01:11:40   and I was saying like, you know,

01:11:41   normally I feel like my bank app is fairly safe

01:11:45   because I use Face ID and because I don't store

01:11:47   the bank password in 1Password,

01:11:49   and so I thought that was safe,

01:11:51   But then I realized, oh no, that's not safe,

01:11:53   because if you have the phone's passcode,

01:11:56   then you can just type that in instead of providing Face ID.

01:11:58   Well, it turns out that's wrong sometimes.

01:12:01   So that when the app developer is storing something

01:12:05   in Keychain, using the Keychain APIs,

01:12:08   we are able to set different security levels and flags on it

01:12:12   to for like, how much security it needs,

01:12:14   what should certain behaviors be,

01:12:16   does it require certain things to be unlocked,

01:12:18   what happens when the phone locks, stuff like that.

01:12:21   And apparently one of the modes that app developers can choose

01:12:24   to use is you can require the biometric, Face ID or Touch ID,

01:12:29   but not offer a fallback to the PIN code.

01:12:33   And also, if somebody changes the registered face

01:12:37   or the fingerprints, to have those not work.

01:12:40   Yeah, that's what my bank does.

01:12:42   Because every time I get a new phone,

01:12:43   I realize I can't use any of my bank apps

01:12:44   and no enter my password.

01:12:46   There's no prompt for it.

01:12:47   It's like, oh, Face ID is totally disabled.

01:12:49   You gotta log in the long, painful way

01:12:50   by typing in a bunch of stuff

01:12:52   and answering a bunch of questions.

01:12:53   And then at the very end of that process,

01:12:54   it says, oh, and by the way,

01:12:55   now that you've cleared all these hurdles,

01:12:56   do you wanna use Face ID?

01:12:57   And you say yes.

01:12:58   Every time I get a new phone, I have to do that.

01:13:00   And yeah, there is no passcode fallback.

01:13:02   - And in this case, that's a very good thing

01:13:04   because that means that if you go

01:13:05   through these vulnerabilities,

01:13:07   if someone steals your phone and knows your passcode

01:13:09   but doesn't know your bank password

01:13:11   and you didn't store it in iCloud Keychain,

01:13:14   then this will prevent them from being able

01:13:17   to get into an app like this if it's configured this way.

01:13:20   - Joke's on them, because my bank account

01:13:22   has such low transfer limits, they'll only be able

01:13:24   to steal a very small amount of money

01:13:25   before they get locked out of my account.

01:13:27   - Yeah, and also, and this is why,

01:13:30   at the end of that process, when you are telling

01:13:32   your bank account, please use Face ID,

01:13:34   this is why it then immediately scans your face.

01:13:37   Because what it's saying is not,

01:13:39   trust any registered face on this phone,

01:13:42   what it's saying is, trust this face.

01:13:45   and it scans it and then it trusts only that face.

01:13:48   Same thing for Touch ID if you have a Touch ID device.

01:13:50   So that's very good to know and so it's not,

01:13:53   the attack service is not as bad as I initially assumed,

01:13:57   but it's still pretty bad and so definitely

01:14:00   start thinking of your phone PIN

01:14:03   with the same level of security

01:14:05   that you would treat your Apple ID password with.

01:14:08   If your phone PIN is less secure than your Apple ID password,

01:14:10   really ask yourself if that's the right move for you

01:14:13   going forward and really consider making your phone pin

01:14:17   a nice password.

01:14:19   - And I was thinking that Apple needs to have,

01:14:21   'cause I was thinking about what would happen if I,

01:14:22   you know, if this happened to my phone

01:14:23   and they got it stolen from me,

01:14:25   even if I had the screen time password on, right?

01:14:27   Kind of like on the phone and on the watch,

01:14:30   those are these various features,

01:14:31   but you hold down the side buttons

01:14:33   and it goes into emergency mode

01:14:34   or the watch will call the police

01:14:36   if you're in a car accident and you're not conscious

01:14:38   and all those things they have for,

01:14:40   In case of emergency, here's how you initiate

01:14:43   the it's emergency time procedure

01:14:45   on the phone or the watch, right?

01:14:47   But there is no such user-friendly procedure

01:14:50   that is easy to find or know or do

01:14:54   quickly under pressure for my Apple ID is about to be owned.

01:14:58   Log me out of all devices, lock everything down.

01:15:02   Us as tech nerds could eventually figure out

01:15:05   the right things to do, but in the moment

01:15:06   when you're panicking, it's not so easy.

01:15:08   Like where do I start, where do I go to?

01:15:09   should I go to the web interface, should I open Safari,

01:15:11   should I go on my iPad, should I go on my Mac,

01:15:14   should I call somebody who has access to,

01:15:16   we kind of know what we'd want to do,

01:15:18   change all your passwords, lock everything out,

01:15:20   go into all your things that says,

01:15:21   log me out of all devices,

01:15:22   but do you know how to get to the log me out of all devices

01:15:24   in your iCloud thing quickly,

01:15:26   or would you just go to iCloud.com and log in

01:15:28   and frantically look for something?

01:15:30   I feel like there should be a big red button,

01:15:32   which is like, my phone has been stolen,

01:15:34   whatever Apple wants to call it.

01:15:36   And no, finding my iPhone is not that solution,

01:15:38   because I don't care about where my iPhone is,

01:15:40   I care about where access to the keys to the kingdom.

01:15:43   Lock down all my iCloud key chain stuff

01:15:45   and don't allow anybody in

01:15:46   if they don't know my Apple ID password.

01:15:48   Because again, your Apple ID has not been compromised

01:15:51   and they don't know your Apple ID password.

01:15:53   You never typed that in anywhere.

01:15:54   All you did was type 1234.

01:15:56   That's what they shoulder surfed.

01:15:57   So I would love the big red button that says,

01:16:00   lock down and everything.

01:16:01   From this point on, nobody can do anything

01:16:04   without knowing my Apple ID password.

01:16:06   If they know your Apple ID password, you're further screwed.

01:16:08   but there's only so much you can do.

01:16:10   - Well, the problem though is that

01:16:12   you probably wouldn't have the time to take those actions,

01:16:15   because if you think about it, you're outside at the bar,

01:16:17   these people have already shoulder-surfed your password,

01:16:20   so they grab your phone,

01:16:22   they run around the corner or whatever,

01:16:24   and/or as they're running,

01:16:25   they are going in and changing your Apple ID password.

01:16:28   Meanwhile, you're saying to someone near you,

01:16:30   "Oh, hey, can I use your phone right now?"

01:16:32   Yes, hand it to me, quick, unlock it, go!

01:16:34   - That's why it has to be a big red button,

01:16:36   because the big red button should be

01:16:38   press this button, it should be something as easy

01:16:39   as pressing the side buttons on your phone or like whatever.

01:16:41   It should be really easy to do and you should be able

01:16:43   to do it on behalf of somebody else by typing in their

01:16:45   app ID because locking down your app ID

01:16:47   should be non-destructive.

01:16:48   Like anyone can do it to you, you know, accidentally

01:16:51   or whatever, it doesn't stop anything from happening.

01:16:53   Just raises the bar that now someone, now that your passcode

01:16:57   is no longer sufficient to do all the things

01:16:58   that it had the power to do, you know what I mean?

01:17:00   - Yeah, I get that but even still, like even if the three

01:17:03   of us are out and let's say somebody runs with my phone

01:17:06   We know each other, we're friendly.

01:17:08   Even if I said to you, "Give me your phone right now."

01:17:10   - No, you chase them down,

01:17:12   all that running you've been doing.

01:17:13   - Well, I don't run that much anymore.

01:17:15   I do other workouts, but--

01:17:16   - It's a foot race at that point.

01:17:17   I feel like you just don't let them escape.

01:17:19   - But my point is just like, I wouldn't have the time--

01:17:21   - I'm joking, don't chase me.

01:17:22   - Seriously, I wouldn't have the time

01:17:24   to grab your phone out of your hand

01:17:27   or have you unlock it and hand it to me

01:17:28   and do a whole login and so on and so forth.

01:17:30   I think-- - You could do it

01:17:31   on your watch if you had an Apple Watch on

01:17:33   or if you had a Mac laptop that was logged in.

01:17:34   I'm not saying it's a foolproof solution,

01:17:37   but I'm saying it is so difficult

01:17:39   to even know where to begin now,

01:17:40   even if you did have access to the thing.

01:17:42   And as for the thieves immediately doing it,

01:17:44   yeah, you've probably got 60 seconds to 90 seconds

01:17:48   before they get anything done.

01:17:50   - Have you used Find My recently?

01:17:52   And I know that you're not necessarily advocating Find My.

01:17:54   - I mean, maybe the thieves will be worried

01:17:57   about turning off Find My and not worried

01:17:59   about owning your app lately,

01:18:01   'cause the whole thing is they don't want your photos.

01:18:03   They want the phone to resell,

01:18:04   and they want to buy things with your money,

01:18:06   that's what they want.

01:18:07   But you're taking advantage of the fact

01:18:10   that the cares don't overlap as much.

01:18:11   The things the thief wants, the things

01:18:13   that you want to protect are actually different.

01:18:15   You want to protect your Apple ID and your photos.

01:18:17   He doesn't care anything about your Apple ID.

01:18:19   Mostly doesn't care about your photos.

01:18:20   Well, I would also like to protect my money.

01:18:22   Yeah, I know, but your money, you're mostly going to get back.

01:18:26   Or at least some of it.

01:18:27   But money is replaceable, and they're not going to be able--

01:18:30   because, again, because of the limits on most of the banking

01:18:32   system, it's not like you're going

01:18:33   to be able to drain your life savings.

01:18:34   That only happens in the movies with rich people, right?

01:18:37   They can't get that much, unless your life savings

01:18:39   is $1,000, in which case you have other problems.

01:18:40   But they're not gonna get all your money.

01:18:43   They're probably gonna wanna use credit cards,

01:18:44   which are fraud protected, right?

01:18:46   That if they use your debit card and your Apple cash,

01:18:48   they'll probably get most of it,

01:18:49   but even then there are limits

01:18:50   and the bank will eventually flag it,

01:18:52   you know what I mean?

01:18:53   But your photos and your Apple ID,

01:18:55   that's what you care about

01:18:56   because in the aftermath of this,

01:18:58   we say, well, all those pictures that you had

01:18:59   in your Apple ID, you're never gonna see them again,

01:19:01   and by the way, you gotta start over with a new Apple ID

01:19:03   and no, you can't transfer any of your purchases.

01:19:05   And that, forget about the purchases or whatever,

01:19:07   but the family photos, I feel like that is

01:19:09   the most valuable thing on your device.

01:19:11   And other than looking for naked pictures of you,

01:19:14   thieves don't care about that.

01:19:15   - We are sponsored this week by Collide.

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01:20:29   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:20:33   Let's do some Ask ATP.

01:20:34   And Pitar Petrovic writes, a few days ago, I saw you flexing

01:20:38   on Mastodon about your symmetrical residential

01:20:40   gigabit fiber connections.

01:20:41   And since I'm in the process of renewing my contract with my

01:20:43   local ISP, I wonder if it's worth it to pay extra for such

01:20:46   a thing, or should I stick to the cheaper

01:20:48   packages with lower speeds?

01:20:49   What are some of your use cases that are worth the

01:20:51   extra monthly cost?

01:20:52   How often is your link fully saturated?

01:20:54   This is a great question.

01:20:55   And I strongly implore you to consider who it is answering this question, because I cannot fathom

01:21:04   a more nerdy group to answer this question. And so your needs and our needs may not

01:21:11   mesh, and that's okay. But for me, I absolutely think that almost anyone could really benefit from

01:21:21   half a gigabit to a gigabit downstream speeds.

01:21:24   As a silly example, and I actually forgot

01:21:26   that this was in the Ask ATP questions for this week,

01:21:29   but I was downloading the Xcode beta,

01:21:32   which actually, I think, has fixed a problem

01:21:35   with my forthcoming app, which I'm really excited about

01:21:38   because something was woefully broken,

01:21:41   and I guess it was broken internal to Apple stuff

01:21:42   'cause then Apple fixed it, which is great.

01:21:45   But anyways-- - Welcome to SwiftUI.

01:21:46   - Yeah, no, it's so true.

01:21:47   It was SwiftUI, and you're exactly right.

01:21:50   (laughing)

01:21:51   Anyways, so I was downloading the New Xcode beta and I had to did tweeted whatever you want to call it that

01:21:57   Oh, look at this in according to I stat menus, you know John's favorite app

01:22:01   I was downloading at a hundred and three mega bytes per second not bits

01:22:06   Excuse me, 108 108 mega bytes per second. I'm sure that's probably not exactly right

01:22:11   But it was probably close and that is really freaking fast. So I don't get those speeds that often I

01:22:20   Typically top out at like 50 ish megabytes a second if I'm downloading something somewhat large

01:22:24   But nevertheless, I thought it was extremely cool that I was grabbing this humongous Xcode download that quickly

01:22:31   So on the downstream side, basically anytime you're downloading

01:22:34   Anything big or you want it to be here?

01:22:38   Immediately, so I don't know say if you're trying to play music from Apple music or Spotify or something like that having a really really wide

01:22:47   so to speak, download pipe. I think that's convenient to almost everyone. What I don't

01:22:53   think is as cut and dry is having an equally large upstream pipe. For me, I love having

01:23:01   it because I'm a weirdo and I do weird stuff with my internet connection to keep it PG.

01:23:06   And by that I mean I have a VPN running out of the house. I have WireGuard on my Raspberry

01:23:14   Pi. I also for redundancy run Tailscale, former sponsor. And whenever I'm not at home, like

01:23:22   whenever my MacBook or my devices are not at home and are on foreign, if you will, Wi-Fi,

01:23:27   even Wi-Fi that I trust, like my parents, for example, I still automatically connect

01:23:33   to the Raspberry Pi via WireGuard because then it's like I haven't even left the house.

01:23:38   And that means all of my internet traffic, including just regular web browsing, looking

01:23:42   Mastodon, etc. That's still coming and round-tripping through my house, and if I had a really slow upstream speed

01:23:49   I would feel it even remotely. And that's leaving that aside. You know, I

01:23:54   am a devout Plex user. I won't talk too much about it,

01:23:59   but suffice to say you can stream things from other Plex users in certain circumstances,

01:24:02   which means if somebody wants to stream something from me, it's nice to have a large upstream pipe.

01:24:09   Whenever I need to upload anything like if I'm uploading the recording this evening that goes faster

01:24:15   And it just basically when you have a big huge you know symmetric gigabit connection you wait less for everything

01:24:22   Which is great like I enjoy waiting not very much

01:24:25   And so when I don't have to wait as much that makes me happy so that's that's my two cents

01:24:30   I know let's start with Marco would

01:24:32   Did I get this right or do you do you disagree? No? That's pretty much it

01:24:35   I mean, when you hear internet speeds,

01:24:38   keep in mind those are bits, not bytes,

01:24:40   and so divide by eight.

01:24:42   And so, like you were saying,

01:24:43   you got a little over 100 megabytes per second download.

01:24:46   That's pretty close to the theoretical maximum,

01:24:48   which is 125 megabytes for a gigabit connection.

01:24:52   When you have a faster and faster internet connection,

01:24:55   you're not gonna be downloading everything at that speed,

01:24:58   because you are going to be dependent on the server

01:25:01   that you are talking to,

01:25:02   and its ability to send things to you at that speed,

01:25:04   and through all the different things

01:25:05   that are in between you and it.

01:25:06   So many things will not be faster,

01:25:09   but many things will because increasingly in this world

01:25:11   we are being delivered things from CDNs

01:25:14   who will have things being served to you

01:25:16   from fairly close by, relatively speaking.

01:25:19   And so anything served by a CDN,

01:25:21   like a very large Xcode download,

01:25:24   we're not serving that from California.

01:25:26   That's being served to us from somewhere closer,

01:25:29   unless you are in California,

01:25:30   in which case you are probably having it

01:25:31   served from California, but for the rest of you.

01:25:34   Anyway, so there's a lot of things like that

01:25:37   where anything served by a CDN that's close to you

01:25:41   will usually go maximum line speed that it can get to you.

01:25:45   And that's gonna be pretty significantly different

01:25:49   when you're talking about a large multi-gig download.

01:25:51   I mean, these days, everything is huge.

01:25:55   Every app on your phone is hundreds of megs.

01:25:58   When you watch streaming TV,

01:25:59   you're streaming hundreds of megs to gigs

01:26:03   to watch like one TV show.

01:26:05   You know, you're streaming a movie

01:26:06   that's probably multiple gigs throughout the stream.

01:26:09   You know, just sitting down watching Netflix at night,

01:26:11   like you don't even realize you're streaming gigs of data.

01:26:13   If there's more people in your house

01:26:15   or if you're trying to do more than one thing at once,

01:26:16   like right now we're recording a podcast.

01:26:19   This is using nothing.

01:26:21   This is using hundreds of kilobytes per second probably.

01:26:25   What the fat pipe means is that I don't need

01:26:28   to tell the other people in my house while I'm podcasting,

01:26:31   hey, don't download anything right now.

01:26:33   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:26:34   - 'Cause it's not at risk at all.

01:26:36   It's just rock solid.

01:26:37   And that's the kind of benefit you get

01:26:39   with very fast connections.

01:26:41   Things are just so rock solid,

01:26:43   you have so much headroom, as Casey was saying,

01:26:45   like there's so much headroom in the transfer speed

01:26:47   that even when you're not using all of that bandwidth

01:26:50   to download something from a CDN that's really big,

01:26:52   like even when you're not using all that,

01:26:54   you are still getting benefits in other ways

01:26:57   besides just not being,

01:26:59   like you aren't constantly downloading

01:27:00   125 megabytes per second,

01:27:02   but you are getting other benefits.

01:27:04   And on the upstream, one thing I notice is

01:27:07   when I am uploading a podcast,

01:27:10   which happens on a fairly regular basis.

01:27:12   It's gonna happen in about 14 hours.

01:27:15   When I'm uploading a podcast, I'm uploading it to a CDN,

01:27:19   and so it goes faster.

01:27:22   It's simple as that.

01:27:23   It doesn't go a gigabit,

01:27:24   'cause the CDN is not that close,

01:27:26   but I notice it goes faster than when I'm in Westchester,

01:27:30   and there I only have 150 megabit connection,

01:27:33   which is very fast, at least it was very fast

01:27:35   when I got it installed 12 years ago.

01:27:37   But I noticed a difference.

01:27:39   Whenever I'm back there, I notice.

01:27:41   When I go from a gigabit to 150, I notice.

01:27:44   It's not like going back to dial up or anything,

01:27:47   it's still a very fast connection,

01:27:48   but there are areas, certain things that I do notice.

01:27:53   And again, it's not like a huge deal,

01:27:55   but having a faster connection is a noticeable luxury,

01:27:58   and it's really nice to know if something is being slow,

01:28:02   it's probably not your fault.

01:28:04   It's at least, it isn't your internet connection.

01:28:07   There might be other things at play there.

01:28:08   And I would also point out the utility

01:28:10   of gigabit connections is highly dependent

01:28:15   on being wired with ethernet.

01:28:17   - Yeah, that's true.

01:28:19   - All the new Wi-Fi standards, they always advertise

01:28:22   these peak speeds that you can get that are either

01:28:25   hundreds of megabits or even some of them

01:28:27   advertise capabilities of being above a gigabit.

01:28:30   In practice, the real world speeds

01:28:32   are almost never that high.

01:28:34   You have to basically be on top of the router

01:28:37   and have no interference from anything else nearby

01:28:39   and be under ideal atmospheric conditions.

01:28:42   There's so many variables to Wi-Fi.

01:28:44   If you are expecting high performance out of

01:28:47   Wi-Fi only devices or devices that are usually

01:28:50   connected via Wi-Fi, you might not see

01:28:52   as much of a real world gain.

01:28:53   And so maybe it might not be worth it to you.

01:28:55   but for wired devices that benefit is very much there.

01:28:59   And also just make sure that you have a pretty decent

01:29:02   modern router that has gigabit upstream port

01:29:05   and that has enough grunt CPU wise and memory wise

01:29:09   to actually maintain all the NAT tables

01:29:12   and all the buffers and everything to actually

01:29:15   route and process that fast of a connection.

01:29:17   And if your ISP supports that connection usually,

01:29:21   worst case scenario you can just use the router

01:29:23   they give you, 'cause usually they will give you one

01:29:25   that can handle that kind of connection,

01:29:27   if they're selling that kind of connection.

01:29:29   But if you're stuck on some old WRT54G,

01:29:33   maybe this is the time to upgrade it.

01:29:34   (laughing)

01:29:36   But yeah, so make sure your other stuff can handle it.

01:29:38   But if you are wired and if you have a good router,

01:29:42   you will notice differences.

01:29:44   - I think the biggest sin in ISB things is the,

01:29:47   sometimes related to technology,

01:29:48   sometimes they're related to finance,

01:29:50   sometimes both of the incredibly asymmetrical connections

01:29:52   where they give you a decent download speed and then a total garbage upload speed.

01:29:56   Not just garbage compared to the download, but just not good period.

01:30:00   Where you'll get 150 megabits down, 2 megabits up.

01:30:04   And that's not acceptable, cable is the worst in this regard.

01:30:08   So I would argue strongly for symmetrical because your download speed is probably going

01:30:12   to be okay and if your upload speed is the same as your download speed that's a symmetrical

01:30:15   connection and that's good.

01:30:17   And the main use case for that is when you do FaceTime with people or whatever video

01:30:21   conferencing is your upload speed determines how you look to them I know

01:30:25   because I FaceTime with relatives who have a crap internet connection and

01:30:28   their upload speed is terrible and they look bad because it will squeeze it will

01:30:34   squeeze their video over their tiny crappy connection is like their Wi-Fi is

01:30:38   bad but like bottom line you if they were wired in their upload speed is like

01:30:41   one or two megabits and you can't get like a really good high-res 4k image

01:30:46   with sound in that size of pipe apparently they look bad because they're

01:30:50   upload speed is bad.

01:30:51   So that's one of the things to think about.

01:30:54   The reverse side of that is if you are watching Netflix and you have a really slow internet

01:30:59   connection, really slow, right, or if there's a problem with it or your Wi-Fi is bad, like,

01:31:04   Netflix will still work, the picture will just look worse.

01:31:07   They use adaptive algorithms to say if your bandwidth type is smaller, we will send you

01:31:12   more heavily compressed lower resolution video.

01:31:15   If you want to get what you're paying for, especially if you're paying more for the stupid

01:31:19   4K, Netflix, you know, however much that costs extra,

01:31:22   you'll need an internet connection that can handle that.

01:31:25   And to the point that both of you made,

01:31:27   that can handle that even if you're in a household

01:31:30   with a family and your kid is downloading a torrent

01:31:33   of something and someone else is watching a different video,

01:31:36   like you need to be able to accommodate

01:31:38   not how much it will take for you to watch 4K and Netflix,

01:31:41   but for everyone in your family to be doing whatever it is

01:31:44   that they're doing on the internet at the same time.

01:31:46   That is still way below a gigabit to be clear.

01:31:48   You do not need a gigabit for that.

01:31:50   But it does argue for not getting like this lowest speed

01:31:54   thinking, well, I'll just wait for downloads.

01:31:56   It won't be that big a deal.

01:31:57   It will actually impact your quality of life

01:31:59   in the common areas people do.

01:32:01   Watching streaming video and doing FaceTime with people

01:32:03   because you will look worse to them

01:32:04   and your video will look worse.

01:32:06   So at least pass the minimum bar.

01:32:08   And in terms of saturating a gigabit,

01:32:12   a lot of it is impatience.

01:32:13   Like, oh, I can afford to pay for it

01:32:14   and I would be impatient.

01:32:16   So yeah, downloads will go faster.

01:32:17   but not as often as you would think.

01:32:19   There is very few things that you can get

01:32:21   that will fill a gigabit pipe.

01:32:23   Apple from a good CDN will, Steam will,

01:32:26   most peer-to-peer things will,

01:32:28   I think Steam is actually peer-to-peer,

01:32:30   but it's a short list.

01:32:31   But, and probably not on that list

01:32:35   is one that people don't think about

01:32:36   that I just had an encounter with recently, game consoles.

01:32:40   Most good modern game consoles

01:32:42   will download something for you while you wait,

01:32:45   But when a game is coming out,

01:32:46   like the new expansion of Destiny just came out,

01:32:49   they will not make it available for download

01:32:52   until X number of hours before the release time.

01:32:55   And if your internet connection is too slow

01:32:57   to download it during that window,

01:32:59   everyone else will be, well, let's face it,

01:33:01   they'll be in the login queue.

01:33:01   But anyway, let's pretend the login queue doesn't exist.

01:33:03   Everyone else will be playing their fun new game

01:33:05   and you're still waiting for your download to finish.

01:33:07   While I was stuck in my room when COVID,

01:33:09   my PS5 downloaded an 80 gigabyte Destiny 2 expansion.

01:33:13   - Goodness.

01:33:14   And I could see as I came down, I'm like,

01:33:15   oh, the Destiny 2 expansion is coming out tomorrow,

01:33:17   better start my download.

01:33:18   I turned on my PS5, which was in rest mode,

01:33:21   and it was already there.

01:33:22   - Nice.

01:33:23   - Could that have happened over less than gigabit?

01:33:25   Probably, but I wouldn't wanna be waiting

01:33:28   on the download to finish because of my slow connection.

01:33:30   80 gigabytes is big, and this stuff is distributed

01:33:32   through CDN, and it's, granted, it's a crappy CDN,

01:33:34   so it probably wouldn't saturate a gigabit, but, you know.

01:33:37   Anyway, waiting for, the reason we complain

01:33:39   about waiting for Xcode to unzip itself on XIP itself

01:33:43   is because for us with gigabit connections,

01:33:45   that takes longer than the download.

01:33:46   - Yeah.

01:33:47   - That's part of that stupid complaint that we have.

01:33:50   It's not that unzipping takes a long time,

01:33:51   it's that our downloads are so fast.

01:33:52   So I don't think you need a gigabit for almost anything,

01:33:55   but boy it's nice to have.

01:33:56   I would just argue for sufficient bandwidth

01:34:00   and symmetrical bandwidth.

01:34:01   And how much is sufficient?

01:34:03   You can do some back of the envelope math and say,

01:34:04   okay, with four people in this family,

01:34:06   if they're all watching 4K Netflix,

01:34:08   we need 20 megabits down and 20 megabits up

01:34:10   or 15 or five or whatever, you know.

01:34:13   The other thing about bandwidth is,

01:34:15   especially if you have a decent ISP,

01:34:17   and if you're often symmetrical or anything,

01:34:19   your ISP is probably better than most,

01:34:21   the cost difference between, you know,

01:34:24   five megabits, 20 megabits, 50, 150, and a gigabit,

01:34:28   they want you to pay for the more expensive one.

01:34:30   It's not proportional.

01:34:31   The 100 megabit service does not cost 1/10

01:34:34   the 1,000 megabit usually.

01:34:36   And so they're trying to herd you upmarket

01:34:39   to pay for the maximum price.

01:34:41   So the 100 megabit will cost $20 a month,

01:34:43   and the 1,000 will cost $50 a month.

01:34:46   And that's a good deal in terms of price per bit.

01:34:50   And then once you can get over that hurdle of $50 a month,

01:34:52   if you can afford it and you're not taking money away

01:34:55   from your grocery fund, it's a nice quality of life upgrade.

01:34:59   But in the meantime, just look for symmetrical

01:35:01   and don't assume you can get away

01:35:02   with a really small connection in both directions

01:35:05   just because I'm only ever going to watch Netflix,

01:35:07   because you'd be surprised how much things in your house

01:35:10   you're watching Netflix.

01:35:12   Oh, one more, I forgot.

01:35:14   Online backups.

01:35:15   Oh, I wanna use online backup service,

01:35:17   but it told me it's gonna take me 17 days

01:35:19   to upload my Mac.

01:35:21   Yeah, it would take slightly less time.

01:35:23   And again, most online backup services

01:35:25   will not use it a gigabit connection.

01:35:27   But if your upload speed is garbage

01:35:28   because you have cable and it's like one megabit up,

01:35:30   it's gonna take forever to do your first backup

01:35:33   of your two terabyte Mac that you just got, right?

01:35:36   Or whatever.

01:35:37   So that really helps.

01:35:39   And it's not, you know, you probably don't need,

01:35:41   again, you don't need a gigabit,

01:35:43   but 500 megabits, 200 megabits,

01:35:45   whatever your backup service is willing to take from you,

01:35:49   it can really cut down on the pain of online backup.

01:35:52   It was a lot of people say I was gonna get online backup,

01:35:54   but then I tried, went for a free trial,

01:35:56   and it told me my initial backup would take 30 days,

01:35:58   and I can't handle that, right?

01:36:00   It, you know, if it takes 15 days, seven days,

01:36:02   that can really help.

01:36:03   Again, even if it's not gonna saturate your gigabit,

01:36:05   so think about it.

01:36:07   - Yep.

01:36:08   Max slaves writes, "Do you use tools like al dente or battery to manually limit the charging level

01:36:13   on desktop MacBooks?" So I want something like this in my life very, very badly. And when I saw

01:36:19   this in our internal show notes, I went and I tried battery, which I presume John linked. And

01:36:25   I got to tell you, it did not work for me. Like literally did not work. That's not the euphemism

01:36:32   version of did not work. Like it literally did not work. Maybe I was holding it wrong. I don't know.

01:36:37   and uninstalling it was not really working

01:36:40   exactly as I expected.

01:36:41   It is all open source, so I don't think anything nefarious

01:36:43   is going on here, but it didn't work for me.

01:36:46   And then even if it had worked for me after I installed it,

01:36:48   I noticed that there's an issue on GitHub saying,

01:36:50   oh, if you clamshell your Mac, it doesn't work properly.

01:36:53   Super.

01:36:54   I did not try al dente.

01:36:55   I feel like there must be some like easier tool to do this

01:36:59   or even do this by hand on the command line.

01:37:01   It looked like battery was using SMC

01:37:02   or something like that, but--

01:37:03   - Does that coconut battery thing do this?

01:37:05   I forgot.

01:37:06   I've never heard of that one. But yeah, I want something like this because it is said,

01:37:11   I can't attest whether this is true or not, it is said that you should keep your battery at about

01:37:16   80% generally speaking, and not charge over 80% unless you know you're really going to need it.

01:37:22   We've talked in the past that there's a way, I should actually figure out where this is because

01:37:25   I was just looking for this the other day and it's buried in the most unusual spot. So there's

01:37:29   a way to tell macOS, "Hey, don't charge above 80 unless you think you really need to." So if you

01:37:35   If you go into settings, not preferences, mind you,

01:37:37   but settings.

01:37:38   - I think this is on by default on new Macs, by the way.

01:37:40   - It might be.

01:37:41   Settings, battery, and then, oh, this is so infuriating.

01:37:44   So if you go into settings, follow along

01:37:46   if you're in a position that you can.

01:37:47   Settings, battery way on the left,

01:37:50   about maybe two thirds the way down.

01:37:51   - I don't have a battery item, Casey, what should I have?

01:37:53   - Ugh, you're the worst.

01:37:55   All right, well, for those of us who can,

01:37:57   on the right hand pane, on the right hand pane,

01:37:59   you'll see the old battery, low power mode,

01:38:01   only on battery is the way I have it set, whatever.

01:38:03   Battery Health, the chart, options.

01:38:06   Well clearly it's going to be in options, isn't it?

01:38:07   So you click on options, put hard drives to sleep,

01:38:10   hard drives to sleep impossible,

01:38:11   wait for network access, optimize streaming video,

01:38:13   okay that's not it.

01:38:14   Well, where is it?

01:38:19   Do you happen to know where it is, Marco?

01:38:21   - Hold on, I'm hit, oh I found it, I think, yeah.

01:38:24   - Tell me how much sense this makes, go ahead.

01:38:26   - I'm gonna guess, but I'm not seeing this on my screen

01:38:28   obviously 'cause I don't have a battery.

01:38:29   Is it in control center?

01:38:30   - No, it's in the battery thing.

01:38:32   - Yeah, I'll send you a screenshot real quick.

01:38:33   Give me two seconds.

01:38:34   - You have to click something that's not a button

01:38:36   or doesn't look like a button.

01:38:37   So first of all, when I clicked,

01:38:39   when I opened up the settings app

01:38:40   and I scrolled down and clicked battery,

01:38:42   the right pane did not actually change

01:38:45   to the content of the battery pane

01:38:46   for about three or four seconds.

01:38:48   - Oh, cool.

01:38:49   - There was no beach ball, no spinner,

01:38:51   like it just was still showing the general tab

01:38:54   for like three or four seconds,

01:38:55   just no feedback whatsoever.

01:38:57   Great app, great app settings, Pete, settings team,

01:38:59   this is great.

01:39:00   Yeah, so.

01:39:01   - I'm so glad this shipped.

01:39:03   This totally was ready to ship to all your customers.

01:39:06   Yeah, good job.

01:39:07   - All right, so don't tell us where it is yet, Marco.

01:39:09   John, can you figure out where it is on the screen?

01:39:11   - The little eye under battery health?

01:39:13   - Yes, it is.

01:39:14   So in battery health--

01:39:15   - I know about the secret eyes.

01:39:16   I've spent too much time in system settings.

01:39:18   If you see a tiny little eye in a circle,

01:39:20   that doesn't look like a button,

01:39:21   and there surely is nothing important stuck under there.

01:39:23   It's probably just information, a little eye, just info.

01:39:26   There's no settings under there, but I know.

01:39:27   - How could there be a setting?

01:39:29   It's only information.

01:39:30   - If you use system settings on Mac OS Ventura,

01:39:33   you quickly learn the stupid little eyes

01:39:35   is where whatever setting you're looking for is hiding.

01:39:36   And don't try to use search

01:39:37   'cause 50% of the time I won't find it anyway.

01:39:40   - Yeah, so if you click on the secret eye,

01:39:42   I really like that, you click on the secret eye,

01:39:44   you can see battery condition, maximum capacity.

01:39:46   Oh, there's a toggle.

01:39:48   Optimized battery charging to reduce battery aging.

01:39:50   Your Mac learns from your daily charging routine

01:39:52   so it can wait to finish charging past 80%

01:39:54   until you need it for use on battery.

01:39:56   - Can you search for battery condition now

01:39:58   and see where the search sends you?

01:39:59   'cause I bet the search sends you to the screen

01:40:00   you just put a screenshot of, not the one under the eye,

01:40:03   because I don't think search can send you to this.

01:40:05   I think search will just send you to this thing

01:40:06   with the graph and say, "Look, I was helpful.

01:40:08   "See, I searched and I found it.

01:40:10   "You searched for battery condition

01:40:11   "and I sent you to this page

01:40:12   "where the words battery condition do not appear."

01:40:14   - As far as I can tell,

01:40:15   it is not available in search anywhere.

01:40:17   I've tried searching for optimized charging,

01:40:18   charging battery charging.

01:40:20   It's not returning any results.

01:40:21   - Well, but what's interesting though,

01:40:23   what's interesting though is I typed in battery condition

01:40:25   in search and the first option's battery.

01:40:27   The second option is battery health,

01:40:30   with a subtitle of battery,

01:40:31   which is, that's the secret eye that you want,

01:40:36   but when you click on that line item,

01:40:38   it just brings you to the battery.

01:40:39   - Yeah, I don't think the search can send you

01:40:42   those things that pop up modals.

01:40:43   There's no direct sort of deep linking way to get to them.

01:40:48   So not only are things poorly arranged in system settings,

01:40:51   not only does search fail a lot of the time,

01:40:52   but there are certain parts that search cannot reach

01:40:54   because it cannot take you there.

01:40:57   it like you can type it in and even if it knew about it,

01:41:00   it's like, well, I know about it,

01:41:01   but I'll just, as this happens to me all the time,

01:41:03   I type search and it brings me to the results page

01:41:05   and I'm like, why did you bring me to the result page?

01:41:08   'Cause I don't see what,

01:41:09   and then you'd have to like scroll through the result page

01:41:10   and find all the little eyes and click on them

01:41:12   and find a pie symbol in the lower left corner

01:41:14   and click on that and it's just, it's madness.

01:41:16   - It is bad.

01:41:18   Anyway, so I don't use any of these.

01:41:19   If somebody, I mean, maybe battery works for everyone but me,

01:41:22   but if somebody has a reliable answer,

01:41:26   especially if it's like, you know, open source.

01:41:27   I'd love to see it.

01:41:28   So please feel free to write me.

01:41:31   - But so now that we did all that searching,

01:41:33   why is what's built into macOS insufficient?

01:41:35   So like I said, I think this is the default now.

01:41:37   If you go to Mac laptop, whether it's a default or not,

01:41:39   if you can find the setting that we just dug for,

01:41:41   you can tell it, hey Mac,

01:41:44   even when you're plugged into a power cable,

01:41:46   don't charge to 100%.

01:41:47   When you get to 80%, just stop there.

01:41:49   And then there's a thing in the menu bar

01:41:50   where you can say, hey, I'm about to leave,

01:41:52   go to 100% and over the next 30 minutes,

01:41:54   it'll bring you up to 100% and then you can leave,

01:41:56   but I'm pretty sure that's the default.

01:41:58   And I think that default, only charging to 80%

01:42:01   unless you say otherwise, is all really I'd ever want,

01:42:05   personally, not that I use laptops,

01:42:06   out of a laptop in terms of battery health.

01:42:08   It's what all of our phones do

01:42:10   when you plug them in on the nightstand.

01:42:11   They charge to 80% and then they wait like an hour

01:42:13   before you wake up and charge the rest away or whatever.

01:42:16   Your laptop, if it's plugged in all the time,

01:42:18   it will never go to 100, it'll just stay at 80

01:42:20   unless you tell it, "Hey, I want you to go to 100."

01:42:21   - Oh no, oh no, it does not.

01:42:24   Apple's algorithm or whatever in order to figure out whether or not you need to

01:42:28   go to 100, at least in my experience, is that it errors on the side of "Oh, let's

01:42:34   go all the way to 100, baby!" It errors to that side, and so I really don't need to

01:42:40   be above 80 almost ever, and in fact I would vastly prefer if there was a way

01:42:44   for me to say "Just always stop at 80, and I will tell you when I need more, but I

01:42:50   can't do that." And so right now my battery is sitting at 100%, and I really

01:42:54   I really wish it wasn't.

01:42:55   - Yeah, mine too.

01:42:56   I have the same problem.

01:42:57   - I have, my laptop is always plugged in.

01:42:59   It's one of the kids' laptops hanging here,

01:43:01   and I never see it above 80.

01:43:02   I mean, it's literally always plugged in,

01:43:03   but it never goes above 80.

01:43:05   I don't know, maybe this is a bug.

01:43:06   I can't tell if it's a feature or not,

01:43:07   but I've always felt like this 80% feature is too aggressive

01:43:10   and it just literally, every time I look at the laptop,

01:43:12   it's 80, it's always 80, 'cause it's always plugged in.

01:43:15   - Well, I wish I had that problem,

01:43:16   'cause I have the reverse where it is always 100,

01:43:19   and I really wish it wasn't.

01:43:22   Eh, what are you gonna do?

01:43:22   - Anyway, so I guess, John, you can't help us with,

01:43:25   you know, what do you use?

01:43:26   - I don't use one of these,

01:43:27   I just rely on the built-in things.

01:43:29   And before the built-in things,

01:43:30   I just let it fry my batteries.

01:43:32   - Delightful, how about you, Marco?

01:43:33   - I've never used these apps before.

01:43:36   Like John, I would just let my batteries slowly melt

01:43:39   before this.

01:43:40   - You want to own laptops long enough

01:43:40   for the batteries to go bad.

01:43:41   (laughs)

01:43:43   So the solution is buy a new laptop every six months.

01:43:45   - Yeah, just drop it in the shredder, get a new one.

01:43:47   - Yeah, that's exactly how it works.

01:43:48   All right, and a friend of the show, Brian Hamilton,

01:43:50   Instagram ads for scammy mobile games are annoying, but despite the horrendous UI, predatory in-app purchases, and oddly creepy character design, some of the puzzles look kind of fun.

01:44:00   Drawing a shape to save the dog or dropping water onto lava to clear a level could be fun if the apps were well designed and the monetization made sense.

01:44:06   Why are good iOS game devs making this brand of time-wasting Instagram-friendly game? I don't really know, but I would guess because there's no money in it.

01:44:15   - Oh, there's so many answers to this.

01:44:17   Okay, so the first one is advertisements

01:44:20   are meant to be enticing.

01:44:22   Kind of like we're on a movie or TV show,

01:44:24   they'll show you what they think is the best

01:44:26   or most enticing part of that movie or TV show

01:44:28   to get you to want to see it.

01:44:30   Same thing with games.

01:44:31   They will show you something that looks like it's fun,

01:44:34   perhaps the most fun part of the thing.

01:44:35   Maybe the advertisement isn't even representative

01:44:37   of the actual gameplay.

01:44:38   You don't know, it's an ad.

01:44:40   So that's answer number one.

01:44:41   Answer number two, the companies that can afford

01:44:44   to pay designers who know how to make fun things

01:44:47   are the ones that are fleecing everybody

01:44:48   with creepy hit-out purchases, right?

01:44:50   - That's the one, that's the answer.

01:44:54   - That's where all the money is being,

01:44:55   that's how they can afford to make those enticing ads.

01:44:58   It doesn't mean the games are necessarily fun

01:45:00   because they are junked up with the, you know,

01:45:02   anti-mechanics that are not friendly to people

01:45:05   and these things that psychologically find ways

01:45:08   to extract money from you, right?

01:45:09   So it doesn't necessarily mean the games are fun,

01:45:12   but it means that they have the potential to be fun

01:45:14   all that cruft couldn't be removed because those companies can hire all the game designers.

01:45:17   And by the way, that itself is a skill.

01:45:20   Knowing how to extract the max amount of money from people is a thing that people get good

01:45:25   at.

01:45:26   And they get good at it because they are highly motivated to get good at it because there's

01:45:28   a lot of money to be extracted and it is an efficient machine for extracting money.

01:45:32   And so the people who are good at it are highly paid and it's a virtuous cycle, not from our

01:45:35   perspective, but from theirs, where lots of people become very good at this and get paid

01:45:39   a lot to do it.

01:45:40   And so those skills get built up.

01:45:44   I think there are fun games that don't do this,

01:45:46   but you don't see them with enticing ads on Instagram,

01:45:49   because the only people who do those type of things

01:45:51   are the people who's whatever it is, you know,

01:45:53   I forget the acronym, what is it,

01:45:55   like the cost per user that they acquire,

01:45:58   or the amount of money they expect to make

01:46:01   from a person who downloads their game

01:46:03   has to be high enough to make up for the amount

01:46:05   it costs them to show that ad to those people.

01:46:08   And with these type of games, I think,

01:46:10   like we have an amazingly addictive mechanic.

01:46:12   we once you we are hooks into you on average we will extract X number of

01:46:16   dollars from you over the next six months which means most people will get

01:46:19   zero dollars from but five people will get a thousand dollars from those are

01:46:22   our whales and so it averages out and so that's why we can have these enticing

01:46:25   Instagram ads and that's why I think we can pay these game designers to make it

01:46:28   an ostensibly fun game that really is just a secret puzzle box to extract

01:46:33   money from you so my main suggestion would we don't believe everything you

01:46:37   see in ad the games aren't actually that fun and my second suggestion is that's

01:46:40   That's where the money is, so that's sad.

01:46:43   - And it's a double-edged sword.

01:46:46   So not only are the ads that you're seeing

01:46:50   only the ones who could bid up those prices,

01:46:52   and if you've never bought app install ads,

01:46:55   they're really expensive.

01:46:56   A typical installation from an app install ad,

01:47:00   it depends heavily on the category that you're in,

01:47:03   but usually you're above a dollar.

01:47:05   Sometimes you can even be multiple dollars per installation.

01:47:09   depending on the category and the competition and everything,

01:47:11   but not every installation even result in somebody

01:47:14   ever running the app.

01:47:16   Not every person who runs the app will ever run it

01:47:19   more than once, and so once you start multiplying out,

01:47:24   all right, well, if only so many of these installs

01:47:27   are actually real and actually result in somebody

01:47:31   opening the app ever, and then actually result

01:47:33   in that person ever coming back in the future,

01:47:37   you end up getting into like many dollars

01:47:40   per active user of the app.

01:47:42   You have to have a very, very high average user value

01:47:47   to make that worth it,

01:47:48   to make you not just lose money constantly.

01:47:51   If you can make that profitable,

01:47:53   you have all the incentive in the world

01:47:55   to spend infinite money on customer acquisition

01:47:59   by buying more ads.

01:48:00   Because if you have a balance there

01:48:02   where you are making money,

01:48:04   where you are spending less per customer

01:48:05   than you are bringing in,

01:48:07   then there's no reason for you to stop buying ads.

01:48:10   You will buy as many ads as you can buy at those prices

01:48:12   until your money runs out,

01:48:14   which if you're doing it right, it won't.

01:48:16   And because these ads are so expensive

01:48:19   and because so many people are bidding on them

01:48:20   who have these money-making schemes,

01:48:22   that's all you're gonna see.

01:48:23   You're only gonna see the people who have these big budgets

01:48:27   so that they can spend more on ads,

01:48:28   outbid other players or other competitors,

01:48:31   and still make a profit.

01:48:33   So you're only gonna see the games

01:48:34   that are really fleecing people for money.

01:48:36   And then if you are a quote good developer

01:48:41   and you're making a game that's a little more traditional

01:48:43   and a little more respectful of people

01:48:44   and not trying to just fleece them

01:48:46   and play psychological tricks to get all their money.

01:48:49   Like if you're trying to do things like quote the right way,

01:48:53   it's really hard for you to find a market for your game

01:48:56   because all of the ads are being bought and bid up

01:48:59   by those other companies who are doing things the other way.

01:49:02   So it's very hard to get noticed in the iOS game scene

01:49:07   and to succeed making good, respectful apps.

01:49:13   'Cause as much as we want that to not be the case

01:49:15   and as much as we want,

01:49:17   as much as Apple always talked about

01:49:19   how great the App Store is

01:49:20   for all these small businesses and everything,

01:49:22   and the discoverability is so great in the App Store,

01:49:25   the value of all that has gone way down over time

01:49:28   as there's just been more and more and more competition.

01:49:30   So you're not gonna be found in the app store very easily

01:49:34   if you don't spend money.

01:49:35   And if you're a game developer,

01:49:37   who you're spending money against

01:49:38   is just so ridiculously hard to compete with,

01:49:42   unless you are also doing the same tricks they're doing

01:49:45   to get super high valuations per active user.

01:49:48   And so if you're making games like the quote good way,

01:49:52   you just can't compete and you won't ever find

01:49:55   an audience for your games in all likelihood.

01:49:57   So people who are trying to do things that way

01:50:00   typically go elsewhere or give up or go to the dark side.

01:50:05   - That's why game consoles are so refreshing.

01:50:08   They're sort of the AAA game market,

01:50:10   which is smaller than the mobile game market

01:50:13   in terms of dollars.

01:50:14   But the reason we don't call those ones

01:50:17   making all the money AAA's

01:50:18   because we realize they're just like

01:50:20   very often money extraction devices

01:50:22   and less an attempt to make the best game you can make.

01:50:25   And in the world of console and PC,

01:50:28   Among the smaller market of people who shop there,

01:50:32   the exploitive mechanics are looked down upon.

01:50:34   Like, you know, for like Destiny, the game that I play,

01:50:37   lots of other sort of multiplayer online games,

01:50:39   even ones with subscriptions or whatever,

01:50:41   the thing that customers hate the most

01:50:43   is what, you know, that drizzly called pay to win,

01:50:45   where if I pay you more money,

01:50:46   you'll give me a more powerful sword

01:50:47   that I can beat people up with.

01:50:48   And users will not accept that

01:50:51   within the top tier AAA things.

01:50:53   They will only pay for, and they'll pay a lot for,

01:50:55   Cosmetics, things that don't affect gameplay

01:50:58   because they consider it unfair for someone with money

01:51:01   to be able to play to advance in the game,

01:51:04   like to get better items, to get more in-game money,

01:51:06   like they don't accept that as, you know,

01:51:09   any money that can be used to make you more powerful

01:51:11   in the game, it's like if you had a poker game

01:51:13   and you could pay to get like a better hand or something,

01:51:15   like nobody likes that, right?

01:51:17   And they'll gladly play for cosmetics forever,

01:51:19   but the cosmetics don't affect gameplay.

01:51:21   And if the cosmetics even remotely affect the gameplay,

01:51:23   they will complain, I think I've talked about this before,

01:51:25   There was a Destiny cosmetic that made the barrel of your gun like an inch or two longer.

01:51:29   It was a totally different skin for your gun, but the point is the barrel was a little bit

01:51:32   longer in game.

01:51:33   Like two or three in-game inches, right?

01:51:36   Person's holding a gun, the barrel's a little bit longer.

01:51:38   That affected the range of the weapon by two or three inches, and people were in an uproar

01:51:43   about it because the range was measured from the front of the model, right?

01:51:46   Oh my God.

01:51:47   Oh my word.

01:51:48   And they were in uproar, they're like, "It's pay-to-win, it's pay-to-win!"

01:51:51   Those antibodies do not exist in mobile gaming.

01:51:54   They're all pay-to-win.

01:51:55   They're like, "Oh, get an extra life.

01:51:56   "Get a thing where if you die, you'll resurrect yourself.

01:51:58   "Buy more gems."

01:51:59   Like, they're all paid to win.

01:52:00   No, granted, most of them are multiplayer or whatever,

01:52:02   but that's how different these markets are.

01:52:05   The quote-unquote AAA market

01:52:06   where you gotta pay 70 bucks for a game

01:52:08   plus $80 for the fancy version,

01:52:11   and you pay that every year,

01:52:13   or you pay $15 a month to play World of Warcraft

01:52:15   or whatever, those markets filled the people

01:52:17   who play those games will not tolerate

01:52:20   garbage mechanics like that.

01:52:21   They're like, they shook out of that market.

01:52:23   people tried all sorts of things and they said we do not want to play a game where other

01:52:27   people with money can play to get a bigger sword to beat me up with, just sell us horse

01:52:31   armor.

01:52:32   And so that has been the way forward in AAA, whereas in mobile it is very different.

01:52:37   So it makes me strangely comforted to continue to pay, again, at least $100 a year, probably

01:52:44   more, and I don't really buy that many cosmetics, for this game with millions of players that

01:52:49   that cost millions upon millions of dollars to make

01:52:52   that I think respects me as a gamer way more

01:52:57   than the free-to-play application

01:53:00   where the bunch of gems are pouring water on lava

01:53:02   that I can get on my phone.

01:53:03   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:53:06   Squarespace and Collide.

01:53:08   And thank you to our members who support us directly.

01:53:10   You can join at ATP.fm/join.

01:53:13   And we will talk to you next week.

01:53:16   ♪ It was an accident ♪

01:53:18   It was an accident!

01:53:20   Accidentally podcasted!

01:53:23   Accident!

01:53:24   It was an accident!

01:53:26   Accidentally podcasted!

01:53:29   John Tiracusa!

01:53:30   Wise Old Soul!

01:53:32   Sends and he's born he's back bro!

01:53:35   Marco Orment!

01:53:36   He's a product man!

01:53:38   He's selling them off just who's back to seeking!

01:53:41   Casey!

01:53:42   Who the hell is Casey?

01:53:44   Who the hell is Casey?

01:53:45   Who the hell is Casey?

01:53:46   It was an accident!

01:53:47   Do either of you, I mean John, your kids are a little older now obviously, but Casey, I'm

01:54:10   I'm curious, do you or John, did you ever impose

01:54:13   time limits on your children's iPads

01:54:17   for screen time or for YouTube?

01:54:19   - I did, even though I very quickly recognized

01:54:21   the futility of it, which is I'm sure what you'll describe.

01:54:24   - Casey?

01:54:25   - Yeah, so, I mean, remember that Declan is eight,

01:54:27   he's in second grade, Michaela is in her last year

01:54:31   preschool, she'll be in kindergarten next year,

01:54:32   she's freshly five.

01:54:33   The kids have my old iPad Pro,

01:54:37   They had an older iPad before that.

01:54:39   And Declan has like an iPhone 10 that does not have service.

01:54:44   It's, you know, it's a Wi-Fi,

01:54:45   it's effectively an iPod touch.

01:54:47   And yeah, I literally have screen time

01:54:50   as in the Apple stuff that we were talking about

01:54:52   earlier in the show.

01:54:53   I have that enabled for his iPhone

01:54:55   and he seems to respect that.

01:54:58   He isn't really into YouTube that much these days.

01:55:01   Not in the way that like, you know, I think we will be,

01:55:03   oh no, no, I don't argue that this time will come.

01:55:07   but it hasn't come yet.

01:55:09   Although I did find it interesting

01:55:10   that he was trying to draw some Pokemon recently

01:55:13   and he turned to YouTube videos to instruct him

01:55:15   on how to do that, which I was actually kind of proud of him.

01:55:17   - It begins.

01:55:18   - Oh no, no, totally, totally.

01:55:20   Again, I'm not sitting on any sort of high horse.

01:55:22   I am not trying to be smug.

01:55:23   If I am coming across that way, that's not on purpose.

01:55:26   I know my time is coming.

01:55:28   But all of this is to say, at this point,

01:55:31   we don't let them use the devices for very long each day

01:55:36   and it's at typically pretty well-defined times,

01:55:38   and that's just the way it's always been,

01:55:40   so they understand that,

01:55:41   and we haven't really restricted that much

01:55:44   because they're just not aware yet

01:55:46   of what there is that they could be doing.

01:55:49   Even, and I'm not even talking about naughty things,

01:55:50   but I don't think Declan has really gotten to the point

01:55:53   that he thought to himself,

01:55:54   "Well, I'm just gonna cruise YouTube

01:55:55   "and watch random junk."

01:55:57   And again, that time is coming probably sooner

01:55:59   than I'm comfortable with,

01:56:00   but we're not at that point yet.

01:56:02   So he hasn't gotten to the point

01:56:03   of trying to do nefarious stuff

01:56:05   to get around any sort of limits or anything like that.

01:56:07   I take it though, 'cause Adam, you said,

01:56:09   is in fifth grade, is that right?

01:56:11   - Yeah, yeah, he's almost 11.

01:56:13   - He is at that point now, huh?

01:56:14   - Yeah, so, and with the huge disclaimer up front here,

01:56:19   parenting stuff is always fraught.

01:56:23   Everybody has different opinions

01:56:25   of what is an appropriate amount of screen time

01:56:28   and screen permission for children,

01:56:30   and if your opinion is different than what I do,

01:56:33   That's fine, you do what you wanna do,

01:56:36   and I'm gonna do what we think is right for our family,

01:56:38   you do what's right for your family, okay.

01:56:39   So our kid, he's almost 11, he has his own iPad,

01:56:44   he's allowed mostly unmonitored YouTube watching,

01:56:49   but within limits, because, look, you know your kid,

01:56:54   and we've expressed to our kid numerous times

01:56:57   to the point where he's tired of hearing about it,

01:56:59   the difference between good stuff and bad stuff

01:57:01   can see online and what's appropriate for anybody, and what's appropriate for children

01:57:07   versus not appropriate for children. We've never had any reason to not trust him to self-regulate

01:57:12   that. Whenever we do watch something that he's watching with him, or at least we might

01:57:17   overhear it from across the room if he's somewhere where we can't see it, it's

01:57:22   always been pretty safe stuff. And so we don't feel the need to be very aggressive about

01:57:27   YouTube filtering. We do limit the amount of time though. The overall iPad time, again

01:57:33   using the built-in screen time feature, we limit the iPad to only certain hours of the

01:57:37   day so that he can't like you know wake up at two in the morning and just play with his

01:57:40   iPad all night. You know so that's that's obviously something you don't want to encourage.

01:57:45   So we have certain hour bounds that you can't use the iPad between you know X and Y and

01:57:50   also YouTube in particular is the only remaining thing that we actually have a limit of.

01:57:57   I believe it's one hour a day that it's currently set to.

01:58:00   This is not maybe the best reason in the world,

01:58:03   but this is the reason we have.

01:58:04   I felt like watching YouTube was very passive

01:58:08   of an activity and I would rather he play a video game

01:58:11   where he's doing something than just watch YouTube

01:58:13   for hours and hours and hours.

01:58:15   I also didn't feel like there was enough good,

01:58:18   high quality content for him to watch on YouTube

01:58:21   to consume many hours a day.

01:58:24   And there are times like weekends where sometimes,

01:58:26   you know, if it's like a rainy weekend day,

01:58:28   he might be on his iPad for many hours that day.

01:58:30   And so we didn't want to, you know,

01:58:32   it was important to me to limit YouTube

01:58:34   to help promote more active or more creative activities

01:58:39   like games or drawing or whatever.

01:58:40   - Do you ever think about what it'd be like

01:58:42   when you were a kid if your parents tried to limit you

01:58:44   to one hour of TV a day?

01:58:45   And I'm speaking as someone whose parents did try to do that

01:58:48   and boy, it was like, there was no technology to do that,

01:58:51   but I'm saying parenting-wise, it seemed like

01:58:54   really kind of swimming upstream.

01:58:58   All of my parents' draconian TV limits,

01:59:00   they lasted for a little while,

01:59:02   but eventually they gave in

01:59:03   because kids whine just too much.

01:59:05   - I mean, I think what it comes down to,

01:59:06   what it came down to back then is like,

01:59:08   there was really not a good way for our parents

01:59:10   to easily limit that, as you said.

01:59:12   You know, here, we can do it pretty easily with screen time.

01:59:15   - Can we?

01:59:16   - So. (laughs)

01:59:18   - Oh no.

01:59:19   - Now, screen time, it has a bunch of weird little gaps.

01:59:22   As far as I know, there's not many totally egregious ones.

01:59:26   Although there is one that I wish they would have an option

01:59:29   to turn off, there is this concept of one more minute.

01:59:32   If you're past your time limit on an app

01:59:35   or on the iPad in general, if you try to launch an app,

01:59:38   it'll show this big white screen time,

01:59:40   you're at a time screen, and there's a button at the bottom

01:59:42   to enter the screen time passcode if you want to extend it,

01:59:44   or you can ask for more time,

01:59:46   which sends your parents a notification

01:59:48   and you can approve it remotely.

01:59:49   But there's also this button that says one more minute.

01:59:51   every limit you have exceeded,

01:59:53   you're allowed to hit the one more minute button

01:59:55   to get one more minute of that particular app

01:59:58   for that interval.

01:59:59   Suppose we are trying to watch a movie,

02:00:02   you know, me and Tiff, we're trying to watch a movie

02:00:05   right after, and you know, we wanna start

02:00:06   like right after he goes to bed.

02:00:08   Sometimes, in order to facilitate this,

02:00:09   we will offer him 15 minutes of YouTube time

02:00:12   on his iPad in bed, and then we'll go pick it up

02:00:15   at that, you know, after that point,

02:00:16   and usually he'll be asleep.

02:00:18   But if we don't set a timer, and he might have,

02:00:21   But we think, okay, well he's past the limit,

02:00:22   it'll only be 15 minutes, no.

02:00:24   With a one more minute hack,

02:00:26   works individually with every app.

02:00:29   And he might have like 30 apps or more.

02:00:33   So what he'll do is he'll do the one more minute,

02:00:36   you know YouTube or whatever first,

02:00:37   and then when that runs out,

02:00:39   he'll go do one minute of something else.

02:00:40   Then when that runs out,

02:00:41   he'll go do one minute of something else,

02:00:42   and he'll go through--

02:00:43   - Oh my word.

02:00:44   - So you can easily have like a half hour

02:00:46   of extended iPad time beyond what your parents

02:00:49   you were able to do because you just keep hitting

02:00:52   one more minute.

02:00:54   So that's one issue.

02:00:57   But anyway, so as far as I know,

02:00:59   I don't think there's any other giant holes.

02:01:00   If you say YouTube--

02:01:01   - Oh no, there is.

02:01:03   - Well, please don't tell him.

02:01:04   But anyway, so--

02:01:05   - He'll find them on YouTube, don't worry.

02:01:07   - I know.

02:01:08   So the other day, and he's a very honest kid.

02:01:11   You know, he doesn't lie and hide stuff.

02:01:14   He's, so the other day, he said,

02:01:17   I found a way around my YouTube time limit.

02:01:20   It doesn't work very well, and it's slow.

02:01:22   Do you want me to tell you about it?

02:01:24   (laughing)

02:01:25   Now, what would you say if your kid says,

02:01:28   first of all, the honesty of this kid is awesome.

02:01:32   He doesn't just sneak around and do it.

02:01:34   He's so excited that he found a way around it

02:01:36   that he wants to share the information.

02:01:38   (laughing)

02:01:41   We're obviously a nerd family here.

02:01:43   Everything's open source, right?

02:01:45   So what would you do if your kid asks,

02:01:48   I found a way around this,

02:01:50   do you want me to tell you about it?

02:01:51   - Yeah, unquestionably yes, I would like you to tell me,

02:01:53   but first and more importantly,

02:01:55   I really, really, really appreciate the fact

02:01:57   that you were honest about it

02:01:58   and you're not hiding this from me.

02:02:00   That's really, really important.

02:02:02   - You're putting that idea into his head.

02:02:03   You mean I could have hidden it?

02:02:04   - Oh gosh, yeah, well, see this is my--

02:02:06   - Parenting is hard.

02:02:07   - Parenting is hard, but no, I mean,

02:02:08   I think that's, I would say yes, please,

02:02:10   but it's really important to me that you understand

02:02:13   that I appreciate the fact that you were honest about it.

02:02:16   - I, of course, had to ask him a clarifying question.

02:02:19   (laughs)

02:02:20   'Cause I said, I'm like, all right, well, hold on a second.

02:02:24   If you're using a way around the limit,

02:02:27   there's two things you could be doing here,

02:02:30   one of which is bad.

02:02:31   I don't want you going around limits

02:02:34   in order to see something you shouldn't be seeing.

02:02:37   That's bad.

02:02:38   But if you're cheating the system to just get more time,

02:02:42   That's fine.

02:02:43   (laughing)

02:02:44   And I said, "No, don't tell me."

02:02:47   Because I'm like, my job as your parent

02:02:51   is to try to impose reasonable limits.

02:02:53   And your job as a tech-savvy kid

02:02:56   is to try to find ways around them.

02:02:58   And if I figure out what you're doing

02:03:00   and I close the loophole, then that's too bad for you.

02:03:03   But I'm like, I actually don't wanna know yet.

02:03:06   - Okay.

02:03:07   - That was a few weeks ago.

02:03:08   Meanwhile, I was like, what's he doing?

02:03:10   Like I'm like, I was like, I locked down,

02:03:11   I took off Safari, figuring if there's some website

02:03:14   that's re-hosting YouTube videos on their own domain,

02:03:17   maybe he's watching it.

02:03:18   'Cause normally, the YouTube.com domain is protected

02:03:20   via the associated app domains thing,

02:03:22   so that's protected already.

02:03:24   And I'm like, and web views are protected,

02:03:26   and I'm like, okay, so what could he possibly be doing?

02:03:29   So we took Safari off, and I was trying to figure out,

02:03:32   like, what's he doing?

02:03:33   How's he getting around this?

02:03:34   Some other app, maybe?

02:03:35   Is he watching stuff, somehow, is Netflix on his iPad?

02:03:38   I don't even know.

02:03:39   I don't think so.

02:03:41   Like I was trying to figure out what this was.

02:03:43   The other day, I see him watching a video

02:03:47   and he has this big smile on his face.

02:03:49   He's looking at me, he's like,

02:03:50   do you wanna know how I'm doing it?

02:03:51   (laughing)

02:03:52   I will tell you, it is not anything to do

02:03:55   with watching on a different domain

02:03:57   or watching in Safari or watching in a web view.

02:04:00   What's your guess?

02:04:02   - Is he, so I had heard, I think a couple of years ago now,

02:04:07   that kids would iMessage each other

02:04:09   and they would use the little postage stamp player

02:04:11   within iMessage, you know, the rich preview, if you will,

02:04:15   in order to watch the video there,

02:04:17   which sounds frickin' terrible,

02:04:19   but you know, if you're a kid, you don't really care.

02:04:20   - That's amazing.

02:04:22   - Yeah, that was the main exploit was you,

02:04:24   here's the reason it was a great exploit,

02:04:25   is because for kids who had phones,

02:04:27   very often, and sensibly, the parents would make iMessage,

02:04:32   one of the apps that's enabled 24 hours

02:04:34   in case your kid needs to text you,

02:04:36   and you can lock it down to say,

02:04:37   hey, they can only text family members,

02:04:39   but they would text themselves,

02:04:41   and from within, because they're in the family,

02:04:43   and from within the message they texted themselves.

02:04:45   - Oh, yeah, there it is.

02:04:47   - You could get actually a full-size player eventually.

02:04:49   I think they might have closed that one,

02:04:50   but that was one of the most popular ones

02:04:52   was texting yourself links to YouTube videos

02:04:54   you wanted to see after everything locked down.

02:04:56   You could do that even after downtime,

02:04:57   lock down everything, like the whole,

02:04:59   like everything on the phone is off

02:05:00   except for a specifically set allow list

02:05:03   of people that you can send messages to,

02:05:05   and that is limited to only your family.

02:05:08   Boy, this phone is so locked down.

02:05:10   I'm sure there's no way they can get,

02:05:12   no, they would just message themselves

02:05:13   'cause they're part of the family.

02:05:14   - That's awesome.

02:05:16   - The second one that the chat room's talking about is

02:05:19   tons of very often not particularly great applications

02:05:22   have ways for you to get to YouTube

02:05:26   from within the application.

02:05:27   Someone in the chat room said

02:05:28   it was a periodic table application,

02:05:30   like a chemistry class.

02:05:31   - What?

02:05:32   - That you could get to YouTube from within.

02:05:33   You're like, oh, yeah,

02:05:34   you can use the periodic table application

02:05:36   as much as you want.

02:05:37   No time limits on that,

02:05:38   and then you can get to YouTube from that.

02:05:40   And lots of apps had a way to do that,

02:05:42   basically by having an embedded web view

02:05:44   that is using an older technology

02:05:46   that's not stopped by screen time.

02:05:47   That was the other common exploit is,

02:05:50   you can stop the YouTube app,

02:05:51   and you can stop the YouTube domain in Safari,

02:05:53   but you don't know what other apps are doing,

02:05:55   especially older, cruddy education apps

02:05:57   that may be part of their school.

02:05:59   The word gets around, hey, if you,

02:06:01   in the school's periodic table app,

02:06:03   you can watch YouTube forever.

02:06:05   - That's also not what he was doing.

02:06:07   - Well, don't tell him about those

02:06:08   because they're probably still open.

02:06:09   Like that's the thing that I learned

02:06:10   when I was learning about all these things.

02:06:12   These are exploits.

02:06:13   You can't do anything about them as a parent,

02:06:15   like technologically speaking.

02:06:17   And Apple's probably not gonna close them

02:06:18   'cause they're not that big a deal.

02:06:20   Like that's kind of my meta position on this entire thing

02:06:23   is technology can help you do stuff like this,

02:06:25   but in the end, enforcement of parental limits

02:06:28   is exactly the same as it has ever been,

02:06:30   which is it's a fantasy, you know, not a fantasy.

02:06:34   It's a sort of a contract between true people.

02:06:37   And yes, there are tools that can help with it,

02:06:39   like clocks and doors and houses and screen time limits.

02:06:44   But in the end, it is a sort of relationship negotiation

02:06:50   between parent and child.

02:06:51   And it doesn't really matter how many tools

02:06:53   are in the mix there.

02:06:54   And so, rather than framing it as a technological

02:06:57   chicken egg race, which is a fun thing to do or whatever,

02:06:59   like in the end, the actual limits you're dealing with

02:07:02   are the same limits you say like a curfew.

02:07:06   curfew doesn't cause a giant metal claw

02:07:08   to come and grab your kid at 11.30 p.m.

02:07:10   and bring them back to your house.

02:07:11   Curfew is just a thing that you tell your kid

02:07:14   and no technology is gonna change

02:07:15   whether they come in on their curfew or not.

02:07:18   You can see where their location is

02:07:19   and find my friends or whatever,

02:07:20   that does not make them come home any faster.

02:07:22   What makes them come home is the relationship of trust

02:07:25   you've hopefully built with your kid

02:07:26   and an agreement that 11.30 p.m. is a reasonable time

02:07:29   when we all agree that that's when you're gonna come home.

02:07:31   - Yeah, I'm trying to think of what Adam

02:07:33   could be using to do this.

02:07:34   - Yeah, so remember how he described it was,

02:07:36   it doesn't work very well and it's slow.

02:07:39   - He needs to get better exploits

02:07:40   because the ones I just described didn't have that problem.

02:07:43   - I know, I was thinking like it's slow.

02:07:45   Is he like somehow transcoding the video from some other--

02:07:49   - Yeah, I was gonna say, has he got like ISH

02:07:51   and is YouTube downloading it or something?

02:07:53   - Yeah, is he like running shortcuts to like pull the video

02:07:56   with a shortcut and then convert, like--

02:08:00   - Doing share play from a different machine.

02:08:01   - Yeah, right. (laughs)

02:08:03   - That would probably also work by the way, Adam.

02:08:05   - Don't tell, good thing he doesn't listen.

02:08:07   - I don't know, I don't know what he was doing.

02:08:09   - So this is so adorable.

02:08:11   He was screen recording them as they play,

02:08:16   making his own copies to save in his photo roll.

02:08:19   - So he was transcoding them.

02:08:21   - And he says, then I just watch them again

02:08:23   after I haven't seen it in like a month

02:08:25   so I forget what happens.

02:08:26   - Oh my word.

02:08:29   - This is an efficient use of resources.

02:08:32   I mean, don't you pay for the YouTube premium where he can just download them on the YouTube app?

02:08:35   Yes, I mean it might be harder to get them out of the YouTube app

02:08:38   So but screen recording like that's given them

02:08:40   That's a cool tool that kids

02:08:42   Surprising the number of kids know about like I can't remember if I have ever screen recorded my iOS device

02:08:47   but once I think word gets around among kids that this is a thing that you can do for a variety of reasons and

02:08:52   That becomes the tool they used to do everything like for example

02:08:54   My daughter does not know about saving images anytime she sees an image that she wants on her screen on her iPhone

02:09:00   and she screenshots it.

02:09:01   And I keep telling her, that's not full resolution,

02:09:02   but she doesn't care.

02:09:04   She doesn't care.

02:09:05   It's got all the Chrome, it's got your status bar.

02:09:08   You're, you know, she doesn't care.

02:09:09   I'm like, you know, you can just hold your finger on it

02:09:11   and hit save image.

02:09:12   It's like, nope, screenshot.

02:09:13   So I feel like screen recording YouTube

02:09:15   is right in that same alley of like,

02:09:16   hey, I know about screenshots,

02:09:17   I know about screen recording,

02:09:19   and if there's something that I see on my screen

02:09:21   that I want, if it's stationary screenshot,

02:09:23   and if it's not stationary, screen capture,

02:09:25   or screen recording.

02:09:26   - That's honest, though.

02:09:29   - Home taping is ruining YouTube.

02:09:31   - That's very clever.

02:09:32   I have to give him credit, that is very, very clever.

02:09:34   Not fast, but very clever.

02:09:36   - It's such like the perfect kid solution to problems.

02:09:39   It's like, it's something that, you know,

02:09:41   I was thinking way too technically

02:09:43   and way too sophisticated, and it's like,

02:09:44   no, this is actually an ingenious thing

02:09:46   that I would never have thought to look for this

02:09:50   or I would never have considered this possibility

02:09:52   because like, I have adult brain.

02:09:54   I'm thinking of like adult ways to do it

02:09:55   that are totally different, you know?

02:09:58   He's like, no, you can just do this.

02:09:59   And then I just watch it again later.

02:10:01   - That's like a VCR for your whole iPad.

02:10:03   Anything you see on your screen, you can just record it.

02:10:05   - Live Stream! - Live Streams!

02:10:06   (laughing)

02:10:07   - No, and the thing is,

02:10:09   I don't know how many resources it's taking.

02:10:11   Obviously, he's got hand-me-down iPads

02:10:13   that probably have lots of storage in them,

02:10:15   but then in terms of it being slow,

02:10:17   it's like, is the frame rate the same?

02:10:18   It's recompressing it, it's like--

02:10:20   - Well, and he has iCloud photo library.

02:10:22   He's on the family iCloud plan,

02:10:23   so the storage space doesn't matter.

02:10:25   - Yeah, yeah, he's on the family plan.

02:10:26   Slowly filling, it's like, hmm.

02:10:28   It seems like Adam's using a lot of data lately.

02:10:29   What are all these things?

02:10:31   - Adam's photo library is a terabyte?

02:10:33   What?

02:10:34   - And then it's not like,

02:10:35   you should see if he's like naming them,

02:10:36   like putting metadata on them,

02:10:37   or is it just a question of you look at the thumbnails

02:10:39   and find, because the thumbnails won't,

02:10:40   I guess that YouTube,

02:10:41   the practice is putting text in the thumbnail,

02:10:43   so you probably don't need anything

02:10:44   except for just being able to see the,

02:10:46   you know, the little video thumbnail.

02:10:48   - Well, and also, and like, I don't,

02:10:50   like I thought, you know, after he told me,

02:10:51   he was so proud, and I'm so proud of him

02:10:53   for figuring that out, and I'm like,

02:10:55   I don't think I have a problem with that.

02:10:56   I talk to Tiff, I'm like, I think that's okay,

02:10:58   'cause he's just making better use

02:11:01   of the YouTube time he already has.

02:11:03   He's not getting more new video time.

02:11:07   So I'm like, I don't think this is actually even a problem

02:11:10   that I need to do anything about.

02:11:11   Like, I'm just gonna let him keep doing it.

02:11:12   - And obviously YouTube,

02:11:14   and on the topic of YouTube time limits,

02:11:16   YouTube is obviously way more scary

02:11:21   than television was when we were kids.

02:11:23   But it is very analogous

02:11:26   in that there is actually tons of value

02:11:29   to be had on television or on YouTube,

02:11:33   just as there was on TV.

02:11:35   There's also way, way more garbage and scary things as well.

02:11:38   And that's what comes down to a question of your kid.

02:11:40   It's like, well, I'd rather have him doing something creative

02:11:42   like playing a game.

02:11:43   But what if he was watching a video

02:11:45   learning how to do math,

02:11:46   which obviously is a ridiculously fantasy scenario.

02:11:48   Like, oh, my kid is gonna choose to watch videos about math.

02:11:51   You'd be surprised what kids get up to.

02:11:53   I am always surprised when my kids tell me,

02:11:55   hey I learned about X, Y, and Z because of a video I watched.

02:11:57   Now granted, it was between 100 other videos

02:12:00   that are just junk food for your brain,

02:12:01   and hopefully not a bunch of Nazis preaching to them.

02:12:05   So it's scary, and I'm not saying don't monitor it,

02:12:07   I'm not saying don't be careful about it,

02:12:09   but there is tons of value to be had.

02:12:11   I had to watch PBS, and there was three shows that I liked,

02:12:15   and they were on once a week,

02:12:16   and if it was a crappy episode of Frontline,

02:12:18   I was just gonna skip it.

02:12:19   - And they are uphill both ways in the snow.

02:12:22   - Educationally, YouTube has so, I still watch them.

02:12:24   I watch, you know, when I went down the SR-71 rabbit hole,

02:12:27   and I'm watching all those real engineering videos

02:12:30   where the Irish guy tells me about fusion and stuff.

02:12:32   Like, there's so much I would've killed

02:12:35   for this as a kid, right?

02:12:36   And, you know, they're of varying quality,

02:12:38   but a lot of them are entertaining and engaging to kids.

02:12:40   That's why you get kids who are like,

02:12:41   "Oh yeah, no, I know all about the War of 1812,

02:12:43   "'cause I saw an animated YouTube video about it."

02:12:46   Like, you voluntarily watch an hour and a half video

02:12:48   on the War of 1812, it's like, "Yeah, it's stick figures,

02:12:50   "and it was funny."

02:12:51   That does happen.

02:12:52   Yeah, that's part of what he's watching.

02:12:54   - Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

02:12:55   So like, I do feel like one hour of YouTube

02:12:59   is probably insufficient.

02:13:01   And also, I would say, mindlessly playing an infinite runner

02:13:04   or like Plants vs. Zombies is less stimulating

02:13:08   than watching the video about the War of 1812,

02:13:11   but better than watching the video about, you know,

02:13:14   becoming a Nazi or white supremacist or whatever, right?

02:13:16   So it's dangerous, but I feel like YouTube

02:13:19   is basically television for these kids,

02:13:22   and it is a television that has higher highs,

02:13:25   lower lows obviously, but also higher highs than our TV did.

02:13:28   Like we just have to watch reruns of Happy Days,

02:13:30   which was not intellectually stimulating.

02:13:32   - Yeah, I'm trying to think, like when I was a kid,

02:13:34   like I was mostly, when I was watching TV,

02:13:36   I was mostly watching like Saturday morning cartoons,

02:13:38   you know, a lot of like Ninja Turtles and you know,

02:13:41   Animaniacs and that kind of stuff,

02:13:43   and it's like I don't know how much value that has.

02:13:45   - Did either one of you watch the Computer Chronicles?

02:13:47   'Cause I think that's a great example.

02:13:48   - Yes. - No.

02:13:49   - I think I did.

02:13:50   Or Motor Week, Casey must have watched that, right?

02:13:53   - I still watch it, are you kidding?

02:13:54   I watch it every week.

02:13:55   - There you go, alright, so here's two shows.

02:13:57   They were obscure, they were on PBS stations,

02:13:59   but it was like, do you mean there's something on TV

02:14:01   about computers?

02:14:02   You bet your butt I would watch Computer Chronicles.

02:14:05   I would record Computer Chronicles on my VCR

02:14:07   by programming it to record if I wasn't gonna be home for it

02:14:09   because it was literally the only time

02:14:11   there would ever be anything on television

02:14:12   that was about a thing that I was interested in, computers.

02:14:15   YouTube has everything anyone is interested in.

02:14:19   You're interested in model trains,

02:14:20   interested in doing makeups, you're interested in building your own canoe out of whatever

02:14:24   you're interested in.

02:14:25   It is on YouTube.

02:14:26   It is an amazing cornucopia of stuff.

02:14:29   And kids are curious about things and they have their own interests and they can find

02:14:34   things about that on YouTube.

02:14:36   And I feel like allowing kids an age-appropriate amount of access to that, I think is one of

02:14:43   the better things that you can facilitate your children to discover.

02:14:49   If they're not finding the good content, help them find it.

02:14:51   If they're wasting their time watching things that you think aren't useful, give them the

02:14:55   time that they need to do that to just be kids, the same way we watch garbage stuff

02:14:58   or whatever.

02:15:00   If you're viewing YouTube as universal evil, I think that's the wrong way to look at it.

02:15:05   TikTok, maybe jury style, but even on TikTok there'll be some person who's up on screen

02:15:09   giving you a musical rant about the War of 1812.

02:15:12   It could happen, but I think TikTok is a little more garbage-y.

02:15:14   And by the way, kids discovering YouTube,

02:15:17   the next much worse stage is them discovering TikTok,

02:15:19   so watch for that.

02:15:21   Marco's on TikTok, he knows all about it.

02:15:23   - Yeah, and I get a lot of information on TikTok,

02:15:25   and some of it's even true.

02:15:27   - Yeah, sometimes.

02:15:28   (beeping)