526: Food Comes From Cans


00:00:00   I think I have one of the most disruptive injuries I've ever had.

00:00:04   Oh.

00:00:05   I have a cut on my support pinky right where the phone rests.

00:00:10   Oh, that is not desirable.

00:00:14   What was the load-bearing pinky?

00:00:16   That was the name of the episode, right?

00:00:18   Yeah, so basically I can't hold my phone the way I have held my phone forever.

00:00:22   Because, like, you know, it hurts a lot.

00:00:24   You know, it's one of those, like, you know, deep paper cut kind of things.

00:00:26   It'll be gone in probably maybe four or five days,

00:00:29   but man, it's really disruptive right now.

00:00:33   - That is not desirable.

00:00:34   - Aren't you one of those weird people

00:00:36   who holds their phone in their non-dominant hand?

00:00:38   - Yes, because I had a wallet before I carried a phone.

00:00:42   So the wallet and keys went in the right pocket

00:00:44   with my dominant hand.

00:00:45   - Every time, this kills me, every time.

00:00:48   - Eventually, I added a phone to my pocket setup,

00:00:51   and so it had to go in the left pocket,

00:00:52   because that was the free pocket.

00:00:54   So I am a left-hand phone user,

00:00:55   even though I am right-handed.

00:00:57   - Yeah.

00:00:58   - All right, well, so now,

00:00:59   now that your left hand is injured,

00:01:02   you can use your dominant hand to hold your phone

00:01:03   with your non-injured pinky, right?

00:01:05   - Oh God, it's all wrong.

00:01:06   I'm trying, it's all, it feels all wrong.

00:01:08   - I mean, it's the hand that you're good with.

00:01:10   Like it should be no problem, but that pinky under there.

00:01:12   - Oh God, this is, I can't even,

00:01:13   now I can't reach all my icons.

00:01:15   It's the wrong thumb.

00:01:17   - I'm so firmly in the phone in the right hand pockets thing

00:01:21   is that when I walk the dog,

00:01:23   my phone is in my right hand pocket,

00:01:24   but I also hold the dog leash with my right hand

00:01:26   because I don't have control of the dog.

00:01:29   And so I've gotten really, really good

00:01:31   at taking my phone out of my right hand pocket

00:01:33   with my left hand and putting it back.

00:01:35   - Yep, yep.

00:01:36   - I just go, "Fwoop, fwoop."

00:01:38   It's like, why don't you just put the phone

00:01:39   in the left pocket?

00:01:40   It's just because that's not how the pocket setup goes.

00:01:42   - See, the pocket setup,

00:01:43   even though you have it set up wrong,

00:01:45   the pocket setup is king.

00:01:47   Once you've established a pocket setup,

00:01:50   you can't mess with it.

00:01:51   - But you see how I'm adapting?

00:01:53   The pocket setup I'm not changing,

00:01:55   but I'm saying okay, when the normal hand is occupied,

00:01:57   in my case with a leash, in your case with a paper cut,

00:02:00   use the other hand.

00:02:02   - By the way, I also am a left dog leash, left phone person.

00:02:05   So I have the same problem.

00:02:07   - Your dog is the size of a Chihuahua,

00:02:09   so you have no problem using left hand to control your dog.

00:02:12   But if you had a dog that was a little bit bigger

00:02:15   and a little bit more eager.

00:02:16   - A dog-sized dog.

00:02:17   - Yeah, a little bit more eager to kill varmints,

00:02:20   you maybe would want to use your dominant hand.

00:02:22   - No, meanwhile, we like, you know,

00:02:24   because of where we live, there's deer everywhere.

00:02:27   Like we have just walking all along the sidewalks,

00:02:29   they walk right up to people,

00:02:31   'cause some people feed them,

00:02:31   even though you're not supposed to do, but some people do.

00:02:33   - They want Lyme disease, they love it.

00:02:35   - Right, and they'll walk up and like lick your hand.

00:02:38   Like how many, like I've touched a deer nose,

00:02:41   not because I really wanted to,

00:02:42   but because it was in front of my hand,

00:02:43   I'm like, well, let's see what this feels like.

00:02:45   Turns out it feels like a giant dog nose.

00:02:47   But anyway, yeah, like there's like,

00:02:49   we can walk right past a family of three deer

00:02:53   within five feet of us and Hopps won't even notice.

00:02:56   He just keeps going.

00:02:58   'Cause as far as he knows, his food comes from cans.

00:03:01   He doesn't know that it comes from animals.

00:03:03   - I don't think he's gonna be taking that

00:03:04   to deer no matter what.

00:03:06   - No, but if he sees a can on the ground, who knows?

00:03:09   - Oh yeah, yeah.

00:03:10   Well, I'm assuming Hopps has some kind of

00:03:12   flea and tick treatment, but you probably don't,

00:03:14   so maybe don't get so close to the deer

00:03:17   because the deer ticks are not your friend.

00:03:19   - Yeah, no, these are all brand new little fluffy ones

00:03:21   that don't have, they aren't covered in ticks yet.

00:03:23   - No, you don't think so?

00:03:24   - Give them a few months.

00:03:26   That comes later in the summer.

00:03:27   But no, I don't, I try not to get that close.

00:03:30   The problem is they're like taking up the whole road.

00:03:32   I gotta like squeeze past them.

00:03:34   - For the record, John and I have the correct pocket setup.

00:03:36   It is phone in the front right pocket,

00:03:38   keys in the front left pocket and other randomness.

00:03:42   I am a back pocket wallet kind of person.

00:03:44   I don't understand how people use the front wallet.

00:03:46   - Of course you are.

00:03:46   - What is that supposed to mean?

00:03:48   (laughing)

00:03:50   I mean, what kind of monster puts their wallet in the front

00:03:52   unless you're walking through like a genuinely

00:03:54   pickpocket heavy city, which is something I do

00:03:56   extremely rarely.

00:03:58   The wallet goes in the back, that's why you have

00:03:59   a little thin wallet, not a John Siracusa/Castanza wallet.

00:04:03   - No, thin or thick, I don't want a Castanza back injury.

00:04:06   - Yeah, there's no thickness of wallet

00:04:08   that makes it comfortable to sit on.

00:04:09   - No.

00:04:10   - I don't feel like I sit on my, I'm in my PJs,

00:04:12   as we've talked about many times before.

00:04:14   I don't think I sit on my wallet, maybe I do

00:04:16   and I don't realize it, but my wallet is thin.

00:04:18   - No, back pockets are decorative.

00:04:21   I mean like that's, I feel like, you know,

00:04:23   well there's a class of storage, of pants storage,

00:04:28   where it is standing storage only.

00:04:30   - It's only if you have a max phone.

00:04:34   - Yeah right, like you know, many people,

00:04:36   they will have something in their pocket,

00:04:37   but then when they go to sit down,

00:04:39   their routine is to remove that thing from their pocket

00:04:42   and like put it on the table or something.

00:04:43   I don't like doing that.

00:04:44   So I am not, I don't use standing storage only.

00:04:47   I just have front pockets that I can keep things in

00:04:50   all the time and I'm not a phone on the table kind of person

00:04:53   and I'm very happy living that way.

00:04:55   - Or you could be a teenager and apparently

00:04:57   they put their phones in their back pockets

00:04:58   and just sit with them and they don't care.

00:04:59   I feel like that's half the reason why the iPhone 6

00:05:02   bend stuff happens is because teenagers just do not care.

00:05:05   They'll just sit on their phones

00:05:06   and just expect everything to be fine.

00:05:07   (beeping)

00:05:09   - We haven't talked about this in a while

00:05:11   I wanted to take a moment and just, I don't know, remind isn't really the word I'm looking for,

00:05:16   but I guess just to say that I know I speak for all three of us in saying that we support trans

00:05:23   youth, we support trans people. It's been really gross here in America for six, seven years now,

00:05:30   but even longer than that too. And lately, there have been a bunch of bills that have been

00:05:37   introduced here in the States, and I don't think it's unique to the United States, both

00:05:41   fortunately and unfortunately, I guess mostly unfortunately, there's been a bunch of bills

00:05:45   introduced that are really, really gross and sick and awful. And this is becoming kind

00:05:51   of a thing, or shouldn't even say becoming, it is a thing here. And it's the responsibility

00:05:56   of people like the three of us, and probably like a lot of the people listening to the

00:05:59   show, to stand up and say, this is not okay. And so I would like to say on behalf of the

00:06:05   the three of us, this is not okay. I wanted to read to you from fivecalls.org, which we'll

00:06:10   talk about here in a second, but on there it reads, "Over the past two years, state

00:06:14   lawmakers introduced well over 300 bills targeting trans people, more than in any previous period.

00:06:19   More than 85% of this legislation focuses on trans youth. In addition to bills banning

00:06:23   necessary medical care, legislation continues to be introduced that restrict what can be

00:06:26   taught in schools and exclude trans people from participation in sports as well as restricting

00:06:30   their access to bathrooms." I heard about this most recently from a dear friend of the

00:06:35   and host of Two-Headed Girl with their spouse Matt.

00:06:39   I'm talking about Alex Cox, who you would also know as one of the hosts of Dubai Friday.

00:06:44   Alex wrote a lovely blog post/recorded an episode of Two-Headed Girl.

00:06:49   We will link to both the text and audio versions, where Alex is basically saying in a very kind

00:06:54   way, "Hey, people that look like the host of ATP, you should do something.

00:07:00   We need you to do something."

00:07:02   So this happened at around the same time that I saw John Molt's tweet about FiveCalls.org,

00:07:09   which I briefly mentioned a moment ago.

00:07:11   FiveCalls is a really cool tool that I was not familiar with before that lets you put

00:07:16   in where you live, and actually it uses geolocation, whatever, and it'll figure out exactly what

00:07:22   district you're in and say, "Okay, if you want to make a difference, here is the phone

00:07:26   number to call with a telephone link. It's in a huge font and it has a little script

00:07:32   that you can read and say exactly what you need to say. And they even, if you want to

00:07:37   go for double bonus points, have a link where you can look at the transfer related legislation

00:07:41   for your area. So you can say, I am calling on behalf of bill one, two, three, four, five,

00:07:46   and it's gross and I don't like it. And so I am, I am going to do this tomorrow. I didn't

00:07:52   have a chance to do it today, but I am putting it on out here for the public. You can, you

00:07:56   and ask me if I've done it and keep me honest here.

00:07:58   My intention is to do it first thing tomorrow morning,

00:08:00   but to call my legislators and say this is gross

00:08:03   because you know what, it is gross.

00:08:05   And it is up to people that look like us

00:08:07   to be there for the people that don't look like us.

00:08:10   And it's the least we can do for goodness sakes.

00:08:13   And so I just wanted to call that out.

00:08:14   I don't know if you two have anything

00:08:16   you wanna add about that, please feel free.

00:08:17   But seriously, fivecalls.org,

00:08:20   we'll put the full link in the show notes

00:08:22   and listen to Alex's episode and or read their blog post

00:08:26   because it's incredible.

00:08:27   - Yeah, the thing I'll add is on a periodic basis,

00:08:30   we also get the opportunity to vote for people

00:08:32   who will be in the lawmaking bodies in our country.

00:08:35   Don't vote for anybody who supports any of these bills.

00:08:39   Like I know you have other issues.

00:08:41   It's the reason this comes up

00:08:42   because the Republicans use it as a wedge issue

00:08:44   to scare people into voting for them

00:08:45   so they can get lower taxes for rich people.

00:08:47   It's a perverse system, I understand, right?

00:08:49   But you may be like,

00:08:50   "Well, I don't like that this person supports

00:08:52   "the trans bill, but I do like X, Y, and Z."

00:08:55   It's kind of, the reason they use it as a wedge issue

00:08:58   is because people are scared of it

00:08:59   and it scares them into voting for them.

00:09:01   But on the other side of it, it's kind of a disqualifier.

00:09:04   It's like, well, I like everything about their policy

00:09:06   except how they have classified this whole set of humans

00:09:09   as non-human.

00:09:10   That's kind of hard to overlook.

00:09:11   I feel like it should be kind of hard to overlook.

00:09:13   Anybody who supports any of these things

00:09:15   that take away rights from people, do not vote for them.

00:09:18   Vote for whoever is running against them

00:09:20   that has the best chance of winning

00:09:21   because of our stupid two-party system here, whatever.

00:09:25   Yes, make the calls, all that, but like, a lot of times you feel like you're making the

00:09:29   calls and it doesn't matter if you have some stupid Republican lawmaker you know is not

00:09:33   going to change their mind, vote them out next time.

00:09:36   Yeah, yep.

00:09:37   I mean, you know, if you look throughout American history, we have a long history of trying

00:09:47   to suppress people's rights, trying to cause a certain type of person not to exist in various

00:09:55   ways, many of them hostile or violent. Lots of different, you know, attempts at society

00:10:01   to meddle in people's sexuality or gender identities or, you know, other, you know,

00:10:09   romantic or gender-based behaviors that they really have no business meddling in. And over

00:10:15   the arc of history, those have all been proven wrong. And we've moved past a lot of them.

00:10:23   Every one of those battles was fought hard and eventually won.

00:10:29   And the people who were on the other side of it, who were trying to cause violence to

00:10:34   or restrict the rights of people of certain characteristics that they didn't like or

00:10:39   whatever, those people always lose.

00:10:42   And those people oftentimes come to regret the positions they've had on the other side

00:10:47   when they were trying to restrict people's rights.

00:10:50   If you are maybe on the fence on issues like this or if you are on the other side where

00:10:54   you want these rights to be restricted, I urge you to look at the course of history

00:10:58   and see how that's gone for those people and maybe realize, you know, this whatever

00:11:04   reasons you have in your head for thinking this is different, I assure you it's not.

00:11:08   You can look back at our history and say like, you know, well, you know, the rights of women,

00:11:14   the rights of black people, the rights of gay people. Over time, those of all, we've

00:11:21   had to work really hard to advance those and to work for equality and we're still not done,

00:11:28   honestly, in all those areas. But this is the latest battlefront in that area where,

00:11:33   you know, we have lots of efforts across our country to restrict the rights of trans people,

00:11:40   to try to deny trans people exist or to try to stop them from existing. Those are just

00:11:46   as barbaric and just horrendous as our past treatment of all those other groups. I urge

00:11:54   you to fight this good fight. This is our generation's latest challenge in this area.

00:12:01   Anything that restricts somebody's rights or ability to be themselves or their right

00:12:08   to simply exist without being harassed or threatened by our society. We need to fight

00:12:13   for that. We need to fight for everyone's rights. It is no business of the state what

00:12:19   gender identity people want to have. It is no more their business as it was to ban interracial

00:12:25   marriage or to ban gay marriage or to have laws against certain people making love to

00:12:30   each other. All of those things are, well, for the most part, relics of history that

00:12:36   that we've fought very hard to get rid of,

00:12:38   this is the latest battle.

00:12:39   And so, all people who care about rights

00:12:43   and liberty for all, you should care about this.

00:12:46   - Yep, couldn't agree more.

00:12:48   So please, fivecalls.org, particularly if you're American,

00:12:50   I'm sure there's equivalents for wherever you live,

00:12:53   because unfortunately, this is not a uniquely American thing

00:12:55   although perhaps we are being more aggressive about it

00:12:58   than most other places, hooray.

00:13:00   And then just to put a little bit of a smile

00:13:04   on the beginning of the show here,

00:13:05   It's officially, officially, officially the last time I can say ATP is 10 years old because

00:13:09   on the 11th of March 2013, we've had like 7.

00:13:14   Occasion inflation, right?

00:13:15   We have had like 17 10th anniversaries so far.

00:13:18   But for real this time, this is the last one on my list, it was 6/21 in the evening on

00:13:24   March 11th 2013 that I had tweeted about the Accidental Tech podcast.

00:13:28   So for real, for real this time, 10 years, and I will just very briefly say, first of

00:13:34   all, thank you to anyone who has ever listened to the show, even if you have stopped listening

00:13:38   and thus are not hearing my words right now. I appreciate it immensely. We appreciate it

00:13:43   immensely. Anyone who's even looked at a sponsor, much less patronized one of the sponsors, anyone

00:13:47   who's become a member at atp.fm/join. Normally this is where I would say if you really enjoy the show,

00:13:53   go to that URL, but instead I will say go to fivecalls.org and make some phone calls,

00:13:57   and we'll appreciate that for this one. But nevertheless, it is because of all of you that

00:14:01   that have stuck around for 10 years.

00:14:04   10 years!

00:14:05   It's bananas.

00:14:06   I mean, Adam was a baby.

00:14:08   Wasn't even a year old when this show started.

00:14:10   I didn't have babies when this show started.

00:14:13   It's nuts to me that we have been going for 10 years.

00:14:16   And speaking only for myself for a moment,

00:14:19   it is a genuine pleasure that I get to speak

00:14:21   to you two gentlemen every single week

00:14:23   come hell or high water.

00:14:25   And for me, I hope this continues until one of us

00:14:28   or all of us can't talk anymore.

00:14:30   So thank you to you two.

00:14:31   Thank you especially to the listeners.

00:14:33   And you can thank us by going to fivecalls.org

00:14:35   and making some phone calls.

00:14:36   - I agree with all that, but you're not allowed

00:14:38   to do any more anniversaries, Casey.

00:14:39   Moratorium.

00:14:41   - So in my family, we have a tradition

00:14:43   that birthdays are just the week,

00:14:45   so it's like your birthday week.

00:14:47   Our birthdays have grown over time

00:14:48   into just full week experiences.

00:14:50   And I feel like this is like our show here,

00:14:53   our anniversary has lasted like two months.

00:14:55   Like how long has it been?

00:14:57   - It's too much, it's too much, you've overdone it.

00:14:58   - Oh, it's all right.

00:14:59   - Yeah, there's a long cooling off period you need now.

00:15:02   - I got at least like five more years

00:15:03   until I need to start worrying about an anniversary.

00:15:05   If we can make it to 15, which I sure hope we do.

00:15:08   - I think you gotta hold off until 20 now.

00:15:09   You've overdone it so much.

00:15:10   - Oh, but Dad.

00:15:12   - You're banned until 20.

00:15:13   - Yeah, but 20 is gonna be six months long.

00:15:15   - Yeah, it's possible.

00:15:17   - We're gonna start celebrating the 20th anniversary

00:15:20   in 2031, do I have that right?

00:15:23   Yeah, 2031, it's just gonna be a year long.

00:15:25   - The future.

00:15:26   - We'll see.

00:15:28   All right, well, thank you for indulging us

00:15:30   for all of the pre-show.

00:15:31   I really do appreciate it.

00:15:32   And let's do some follow-up,

00:15:34   'cause I know that's what you're here for.

00:15:35   Ted points out, with regard to turning off the,

00:15:38   what's the term, John, for the sensitivity in the remote?

00:15:41   What's the formal term for it?

00:15:42   - It was like touch, or touch, or click only,

00:15:44   or touch and click.

00:15:45   I don't remember what the setting is.

00:15:46   - Okay.

00:15:47   Well, if you turn that off,

00:15:48   Ted has found out that if you press up

00:15:51   when you're looking at an Apple TV screensaver,

00:15:53   it will show the location.

00:15:55   And then instead of swiping,

00:15:56   you can press left and right to cycle through the screensavers, which is cool.

00:15:59   Yeah, this is the never ending follow up of like,

00:16:01   I turned off touch of my Apple TV remote, but now I can't do whatever. Uh,

00:16:04   and I think this was the last one we had in the queue was someone said,

00:16:07   I can't figure out how to get the location on the screensaver.

00:16:09   Apparently you can press up.

00:16:10   In deed. Then Eric de Reuter writes,

00:16:14   it seems that the no passcode iPhone can't plan can be defeated by a thief

00:16:19   adding a passcode and then using the new passcode to reset your Apple ID

00:16:23   password. Whoopsie doopsie.

00:16:25   So amazing.

00:16:26   I have not tested this.

00:16:28   And here's the thing.

00:16:29   This is going to be a theme with that we have a bunch

00:16:30   of follow-up related to this.

00:16:32   Lots of people post things like this,

00:16:34   and it's not clear to me that they have actually tested it,

00:16:36   or they're just surmising this would be the case.

00:16:38   And the reason I haven't been testing a lot of these

00:16:41   is because basically I'm afraid of screwing something up

00:16:43   and locking myself out of my Apple ID.

00:16:44   Because a lot of this testing is like,

00:16:46   remove a passcode, then remove this,

00:16:47   then remove your Apple ID, then add your Apple ID,

00:16:49   and do this.

00:16:50   It's just like, there's no way I'm going to do that.

00:16:51   So I'm cautioning people not to just go hog wild

00:16:56   trying all these things that you're hearing.

00:16:58   I'm including him in the show just because I'd like to hear,

00:17:01   I think it's interesting to know that

00:17:03   that there may be ways around,

00:17:05   even that silliest thing of the person who's on the farm

00:17:08   and didn't have a passcode,

00:17:09   it's a fun little bit of feedback,

00:17:11   but if you think that's a great plan, maybe thinking it,

00:17:14   because setting aside all the social engineering things,

00:17:17   just practically speaking,

00:17:19   it's apparently not clear to anyone,

00:17:21   anyone anywhere exactly how the security is intertwined

00:17:26   with Apple IDs and resetting and trusting devices.

00:17:28   It's just so complicated.

00:17:29   Like we all kind of know the default way things work,

00:17:32   but this type of thing of like, okay,

00:17:34   well, we'll get through it in a little bit,

00:17:35   but like, but what if I wanna have an Apple ID

00:17:37   and I wanna have a passcode,

00:17:38   but I don't want the passcode

00:17:40   to be able to reset the Apple ID, is that possible?

00:17:41   And what if I don't have a passcode?

00:17:42   If they add the passcode,

00:17:43   suddenly can the added passcode now reset my Apple ID?

00:17:46   It's very confusing and very fraught.

00:17:48   And I feel like Apple should eventually address this,

00:17:50   as we've discussed in past shows.

00:17:51   But here's just one more permutation to make you doubt

00:17:54   that you really know exactly what's going on

00:17:56   with respect to passcodes and Apple IDs.

00:17:58   I mean, the bottom line is what we said before.

00:18:00   If you had a really long alphanumeric one,

00:18:01   it's harder to shoulder surf,

00:18:02   and that's probably the best defense,

00:18:04   but it's also super annoying.

00:18:05   - Tangentially related with regard to doing a screen

00:18:10   recording while your parent is entering

00:18:13   the screen time passcode, so you can then reverse engineer

00:18:16   the screen time passcode, Guy Rambo told me that

00:18:19   in the iOS 16.4 beta, the screen time passcode entry

00:18:23   does not show up in screen recordings, Guy writes.

00:18:25   I believe that that's been the case

00:18:26   for any secure data entry for quite a while

00:18:28   if the app configures the keyboard appropriately.

00:18:30   I just thought that was very funny,

00:18:31   that apparently that hole is already being filled in.

00:18:35   - Yeah, but not the hole of your children

00:18:36   shoulder surfing you.

00:18:37   And we keep saying that phrase

00:18:38   as everyone knows what it means.

00:18:40   I mean, can we do the etymology on shoulder surfing?

00:18:43   I think it actually is difficult to find out.

00:18:45   What we mean is someone looking over your shoulder and seeing what you're doing, right?

00:18:47   But why is it called shoulder surfing?

00:18:50   I think it's like, what's the, what's the derivation of that?

00:18:52   I think it's like, I don't know.

00:18:55   Surfing is, I don't know.

00:18:56   You can look it up.

00:18:57   It's not, this is not the first use of surfing to mean sort of like being poised on the edge

00:19:02   of something peering over or whatever.

00:19:04   But anyway, that's what we mean by shoulder surfing.

00:19:06   Someone looking over your shoulder and seeing what you're doing.

00:19:08   And kids are really good at that because they're small and sneaky.

00:19:11   Mm hmm.

00:19:12   All right.

00:19:13   apparently you can make unlimited guesses for the screen time passcode in

00:19:19   a particular context. So Melly writes, "You can do an unlimited screen time passcode

00:19:23   attempts in the screen time passcode, whatever, within hours." So you can go to

00:19:28   iOS settings, general, transfer, or reset iPhone. You tap on erase all content and

00:19:32   settings, tap on continue. You might have to enter the iPhone passcode, then you're

00:19:35   asked to enter the screen time passcode, and you can enter the wrong

00:19:38   passcode as often as you like. There's no forced pause after six wrong passcodes,

00:19:41   which is kind of funny.

00:19:43   I mean, I don't think that's that big a deal,

00:19:45   but it's pretty funny nonetheless.

00:19:47   - Well, but no, that's exactly,

00:19:48   this is an ultimate hole for a child.

00:19:50   So first of all, it's a scary thing to do.

00:19:51   Like they're going to their own device,

00:19:53   they're on their own iPad, right?

00:19:54   And they're going like, you know,

00:19:56   erase all content and settings,

00:19:58   which is a terrifying flow to start going through, right?

00:20:00   But they're just going through,

00:20:01   and you know, you have to enter the passcode.

00:20:02   They probably know the passcode to their own iPad.

00:20:04   It's how they get into their iPad, right?

00:20:06   So they're able to do this.

00:20:07   They are able to go this.

00:20:08   They just have to make sure they don't go

00:20:10   all the way through with the procedure

00:20:11   because at a certain point in the erase all content

00:20:14   and settings flow on their own device,

00:20:16   they will be asked, oh, you're not allowed to erase this

00:20:19   because it's locked with screen time,

00:20:20   so please enter the screen time passcode.

00:20:22   And in this particular flow, at that point,

00:20:24   you can guess as many times as you want.

00:20:26   And the screen time passcode, I believe,

00:20:27   is limited to four digits.

00:20:29   - Yes.

00:20:29   - It's only 10,000 combos and kids have a lot of time.

00:20:32   - Yep, and fast fingers.

00:20:34   Like, God, I cannot believe, like when I see my kid

00:20:37   operating the iPad or his computer,

00:20:40   He's so fast.

00:20:43   Like, you know, I'm a nerd, I'm pretty fast at things.

00:20:45   My God, I got nothing on my kid.

00:20:48   He is, like, the speed at which he taps things

00:20:51   and goes through things and goes through screens

00:20:52   and everything, flies through menus, like, amazing.

00:20:55   And so yeah, a kid who discovers this loophole

00:20:58   and is devoted to getting the passcode

00:21:00   can probably do it within like a half hour.

00:21:02   - It would take longer, you can do it with time,

00:21:04   I have as long as it takes to type in 10,000 four digit

00:21:06   codes, you can split it over multiple days,

00:21:07   like, but the point is, you think, oh, no,

00:21:10   will ever have the patience to root for it, this a kid would.

00:21:13   Especially because the reward for knowing your iPad's screen time passcode is quite

00:21:19   encouraging for a kid.

00:21:20   Yeah, they are highly motivated.

00:21:22   Yes!

00:21:23   And then there's a feedback number we'll put in the show notes, which would potentially

00:21:27   be useful to Apple people if feedback actually did anything other than go to Dev Null, which

00:21:31   we're going to talk about in a future episode, because I have thoughts.

00:21:34   Well, yeah, this person says they filed the feedback, and Apple responded that it is "not

00:21:38   a security issue."

00:21:39   How is it not a security issue?

00:21:41   Well, that, but how did Apple respond to a feedback?

00:21:43   I think that's even more stunning.

00:21:45   - I mean, we don't, it's not a direct quote.

00:21:46   We're quoting the person who wrote this,

00:21:49   I think, what was it, Mastodon post?

00:21:51   So anyway, it feels wrong to me.

00:21:54   It feels like if there's any place

00:21:55   where you're asked for the passcode,

00:21:56   there should be at least like a slowdown,

00:21:58   sort of a back off slowdown type thing.

00:22:00   You can't just guess forever.

00:22:02   - Yeah, it's definitely a security issue.

00:22:03   They just might not care about this area of security enough,

00:22:06   which I think is their problem that they should fix,

00:22:08   if that's true.

00:22:09   It's also possible that this got to a bug screener

00:22:13   who wasn't very good.

00:22:15   I mean, a big problem I think with the impression

00:22:20   that we have of the bug filing process from the outside

00:22:24   is that it is very, very clear that the level

00:22:28   of bug screeners that often interact with our bugs,

00:22:31   they are not paying attention.

00:22:32   They are not going through actually reading what you wrote,

00:22:36   they're not actually looking to see what you included

00:22:39   or attached, they're looking to plow through

00:22:41   as many as possible, find any reason

00:22:43   to kick it back to you or close it.

00:22:45   That's it.

00:22:46   It isn't like Apple, the one brain,

00:22:49   has decided this is not worth fixing.

00:22:51   No, it's Apple has a really crappy bug screening process

00:22:54   that incentivizes and encourages

00:22:57   mass disregard of what we say.

00:23:00   And so that person who saw that bug report

00:23:03   had a very, very strong incentive

00:23:05   and probable inertia towards disregarding it

00:23:08   in some reason.

00:23:09   So if you say, "Hey, this is a security problem,"

00:23:11   they're looking for any possible reason to say,

00:23:13   "No, it's not," because they wanna plow through

00:23:15   as many bugs as possible that day.

00:23:17   And that's terrible and dysfunctional,

00:23:18   and that causes Apple to miss tons of stuff

00:23:20   they really shouldn't miss, but that is Apple's process,

00:23:23   and that it falls squarely on their management to fix.

00:23:27   - Yeah, we'll save it for the show,

00:23:28   'cause we're gonna talk about it,

00:23:29   not this week, but probably soon.

00:23:30   (laughing)

00:23:31   Jenny Oskarsen writes, "It is possible to have a passcode

00:23:34   "on an iPhone be logged into iCloud

00:23:36   "and not have that passcode allow you

00:23:38   to change your Apple ID password.

00:23:40   So the way you do this is you change your passcode.

00:23:41   Once the passcode has been entered twice,

00:23:43   it will ask for your Apple ID password.

00:23:45   At that point, just hit cancel.

00:23:47   The passcode has been changed even though you've canceled.

00:23:50   And if you attempt to change the Apple ID password

00:23:52   from the Settings app,

00:23:53   it will ask you for your current Apple ID password.

00:23:55   I haven't verified if this is true, but it sounds good.

00:23:58   - I tried this and it did not work.

00:24:00   Like I was not offered that choice and it just never,

00:24:03   so whatever, yeah, for whatever it's worth,

00:24:05   this didn't work for me.

00:24:06   I feel like there is, with this type of thing,

00:24:09   there's stuff that we can't see.

00:24:11   And the stuff that we can't see, I feel like,

00:24:13   is behind the scenes, once you link up your trusted device

00:24:17   and your Apple ID, even if you follow this procedure,

00:24:21   it still says, oh, well, this device and this Apple ID,

00:24:24   like, this is a trusted device for this Apple ID.

00:24:26   So of course, I will prompt,

00:24:27   and this device does have a passcode,

00:24:29   so I'll prompt you for the passcode,

00:24:30   and that's why you reset it.

00:24:31   Like, I feel like once they get associated

00:24:33   on Apple server side, that this phone and that Apple ID

00:24:36   are connected, that this won't work.

00:24:38   But if maybe you never link them in this way,

00:24:41   or maybe you did this the first time,

00:24:43   I feel like there's unseen stuff that we're,

00:24:45   something in some database table or some record somewhere

00:24:48   on Apple's side is thwarting this.

00:24:51   And I had the same experience, that it didn't work for me,

00:24:53   but it worked for Jenny, so there's obviously something

00:24:56   we're not seeing that's beyond just looking

00:24:58   at the settings on your phone.

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00:26:12   - There's been a little bit of talk over the last week

00:26:19   about how Tim Cook's a jerk and he just wants to ship

00:26:22   'cause he wants to be remembered, man.

00:26:24   That's what it's all about.

00:26:25   This is a report in the Financial Times,

00:26:28   which was then summarized possibly not extremely accurately

00:26:32   depending on how you read it.

00:26:34   It was summarized by MacRumors.

00:26:36   That summary says that Apple CEO Tim Cook sided

00:26:39   with the operations chief, Jeff Williams,

00:26:41   in pushing to launch a first-generation mixed reality

00:26:44   headset device this year, against the wishes

00:26:47   of the company's design team, the Financial Times reports.

00:26:49   The company's industrial design team

00:26:51   cautioned that devices in the category

00:26:53   were not yet ready for launch and wanted

00:26:54   to delay until a lightweight AR glass product had

00:26:57   matured several years later.

00:26:59   On the other hand, Apple's ops team

00:27:00   wanted to ship an early version of the product

00:27:02   in the form of a VR-focused ski-goggle-like headset that allows users to watch 3D videos,

00:27:06   perform interactive workouts, or make FaceTime calls with virtual avatars.

00:27:10   Tim Cook reportedly sided with Jeff Williams, overruling objections from Apple's designers

00:27:13   and pressing for an early launch with a more limited product.

00:27:16   Speaking to the Financial Times, former Apple engineers who worked on the device described

00:27:20   the "huge pressure to ship."

00:27:23   Apple's headset has reportedly been in active development for seven years, twice as long

00:27:27   as the original iPhone prior to its launch.

00:27:30   The device is seen as being tied directly to Tim Cook's legacy as Apple's first new

00:27:34   computing platform developed entirely under his leadership.

00:27:37   Well, what do we think, fellas?

00:27:40   Well, Gruber had a good follow-up sort of punching holes in all the theorizing about

00:27:44   the internal intrigue about this and how nonsensical this theory is.

00:27:49   It's nonsensical on many, many fronts.

00:27:51   Factually inaccurate about this being the first item tied to Tim Cook's legacy.

00:27:54   It doesn't really make much sense that Tim Cook would care about this to secure his legacy,

00:27:58   which is already secured.

00:27:59   fact this could screw it up like we'll link to the group article you can see

00:28:02   all that I'm not so much interested in whether you know about all of those

00:28:07   details I'm more interested in basically the idea of do we think Apple should

00:28:11   ship a ski goggles thing or do we think that they should wait until head they

00:28:15   have AR glasses it seems like the company has decided that they're going

00:28:19   to ship a thing I mean we fuck those for ages like the thing we've been talking

00:28:23   about oh it's gonna come any time now is not a pair of glasses it is a goggly

00:28:27   thing, maybe a slim, goggly thing, smaller than other people's, but it's a AR/VR headset

00:28:32   thing of the type that we already see on the market, not a pair of Clark Kent glasses that

00:28:39   magically show you something because nobody has the technology to do that yet.

00:28:43   I think the interesting part of this story is just putting a pin on the idea that Apple

00:28:47   has decided they're going to ship that rather than waiting.

00:28:51   That much is clear.

00:28:52   And the other little tidbit is that there is a portion of the company that thinks this

00:28:56   this is the wrong move.

00:28:57   I don't think there's anything that Apple does

00:28:59   that there's not a portion of the company

00:29:01   that thinks it's the wrong move.

00:29:02   Like it's a big company with a lot of opinionated people.

00:29:05   Like literally name anything, any product,

00:29:08   any decision they've ever made somewhere,

00:29:10   some department thinks that that was the wrong thing to do.

00:29:13   Some software division, some hardware division,

00:29:15   some supplier manager, people like someone thinks

00:29:18   they should have either not shipped that

00:29:20   or shipped it earlier or shipped it later

00:29:21   or shipped a different thing.

00:29:22   That is true in any company.

00:29:24   So a story that says, well, you know, the operations department

00:29:28   thought they should have done x, and the supplier management

00:29:30   people thought they should have done y.

00:29:32   Of course, that's inevitable.

00:29:35   They try to make it into a more interesting story,

00:29:37   it's like, oh, it's Tim Cook in operations

00:29:40   versus industrial design.

00:29:41   He runs the company.

00:29:43   It's not versus anything.

00:29:44   It's a hierarchy.

00:29:46   Again, Tim Cook doesn't need approval from everyone

00:29:48   below him to do things.

00:29:50   There's nothing, literally nothing,

00:29:52   that gets done that doesn't have someone disagreeing

00:29:54   with it or whatever, like the butterfly keyboard, right?

00:29:55   They shipped that for years and years.

00:29:57   You think there weren't people inside Apple

00:29:59   that thought, whole departments that thought

00:30:00   this butterfly keyboard thing is a terrible mistake.

00:30:02   They just weren't the ones who got to make

00:30:03   the decision for that, right?

00:30:05   Anyway, so setting that aside, it is interesting to think,

00:30:08   kind of like, kind of comparing to the car project,

00:30:11   should Apple continue, have continued to,

00:30:14   you know, they haven't shipped anything yet,

00:30:15   but should Apple continue to just work on this problem

00:30:17   until they have something that looks like a pair of glasses,

00:30:21   Or should they basically ship what they have,

00:30:24   which presumably is incrementally better

00:30:27   than other ski goggles type things,

00:30:28   but is not a pair of glasses?

00:30:30   - Yeah, I mean, there's so many weird holes in this article

00:30:34   and the aforementioned Gruber article,

00:30:37   I think, pokes most of the holes very well,

00:30:39   so I'll leave that to him, including the whole thing

00:30:42   with this being Tim Cook's legacy.

00:30:44   No, the Apple Watch was a Tim Cook product.

00:30:47   They claimed that Steve Jobs conceived the Apple Watch,

00:30:50   but the watch came out like four years after Jobs died.

00:30:54   It's a Tim Cook product.

00:30:57   Whatever Jobs would have conceived there

00:31:00   would have been such an early preliminary thing.

00:31:03   It was pretty much 100% executed under Tim Cook.

00:31:07   So the watch is a Tim Cook product and it's very successful.

00:31:11   Gruber mentioned AirPods is another great example.

00:31:14   These are not small deals.

00:31:15   So Tim Cook's legacy is fine.

00:31:17   If you wanna poke holes in his legacy,

00:31:20   look at other things like his China strategy for instance,

00:31:22   maybe that's gonna be a problem.

00:31:24   But for the products, they've been fine.

00:31:27   They've had ups and downs,

00:31:28   they also had ups and downs under Steve.

00:31:30   So we're fine there.

00:31:33   So as for the particulars of this thing,

00:31:35   I think it's interesting,

00:31:36   reading between the lines here,

00:31:38   whenever you have an article like this,

00:31:40   or you see something from Mark Gurman or from Meng Shiquo,

00:31:46   you're seeing bits and pieces.

00:31:48   What happens is somebody has a source somewhere

00:31:51   and they get some information,

00:31:53   bits and pieces of information,

00:31:54   possibly from multiple different sources,

00:31:57   and then they try to put together the narrative

00:31:59   that they think this means.

00:32:01   But you often have to separate that out.

00:32:03   So often the rumor mill gets good information

00:32:07   and the individual facts of it might end up being correct,

00:32:11   but the narrative they spin ends up being totally wrong.

00:32:15   So I think it's worth parsing some of that out

00:32:17   and trying to figure out like okay,

00:32:19   what's the actual information

00:32:22   that this seems to be reporting?

00:32:24   Not necessarily the story of why the reporter

00:32:28   thinks this is the way it is,

00:32:30   or the overarching story that this might be saying,

00:32:32   but what's the actual information here?

00:32:35   And I don't think there's much new here,

00:32:38   except for maybe that the industrial design team

00:32:41   did not want to ship this product at all,

00:32:43   or yet at least,

00:32:45   and that operations said, sure,

00:32:48   but we're gonna ship it anyway.

00:32:50   And I don't think that, and operations here,

00:32:53   under Tim Cook, that's basically become product design.

00:32:56   Like as far as we can tell from vague statements

00:33:00   and tips here and there, it does seem like Jeff Williams

00:33:04   is kind of the head of product direction now,

00:33:07   in some ways at least, or for some products at least.

00:33:11   - Well, why do you think that?

00:33:12   Just because he's sort of in charge of that project

00:33:15   that he's, it's difficult to tell from the outside,

00:33:17   but I think Gruber made the point that,

00:33:19   Gruber made the point that in Apple world,

00:33:22   product marketing is what is also known as product

00:33:27   or product management in other companies,

00:33:28   like emphasis on the product.

00:33:30   If you think product marketing is just how to design

00:33:32   the ads for the product, that's not it.

00:33:34   And product marketing still exists

00:33:36   and still has powerful people in it.

00:33:38   So it's never been entirely clear to me how this works,

00:33:40   and I think it is informal.

00:33:42   When we say product, what we're talking about is

00:33:45   What should we make?

00:33:46   Should we make a laptop computer

00:33:48   with a giant flashlight built into it?

00:33:51   Should we make a giant desktop with 8,000 slots?

00:33:55   Should we make a car?

00:33:57   Product in most companies is like, what should we make?

00:34:01   We're a company that makes, I don't know, grills.

00:34:04   Should we make gas grills?

00:34:05   Should we make charcoal grills?

00:34:07   Should we make grills that we plug in that are electric?

00:34:08   What should we make?

00:34:10   What kind of electric?

00:34:11   Someone has to decide what should we make.

00:34:12   That's a product decision.

00:34:13   Very often traditional companies have focus groups

00:34:16   and they do market research and say,

00:34:17   what part of the market can we make an impact in?

00:34:20   What are we good at making?

00:34:21   All sorts of stuff like, what should we make?

00:34:23   And then engineering is like,

00:34:24   how do we make the thing that we should make?

00:34:26   And industrial design and user interfaces,

00:34:27   how should the thing that we made work?

00:34:28   And blah, blah, blah.

00:34:29   And you can see how it all kind of blends together.

00:34:30   But in every company, there has to kind of be

00:34:32   the person in charge of what should we make.

00:34:35   And in Apple, it's not entirely clear who does that job

00:34:39   because ideas for products have historically come

00:34:41   from all over the place.

00:34:43   You know, in the jobs era, jobs may have an idea,

00:34:46   but also I think ideas would come from all over the place,

00:34:48   bounce off of Jobs's head and come back down the org chart

00:34:50   and they would say, we're gonna make this,

00:34:52   we're gonna make that.

00:34:53   Whose idea was it to make a watch?

00:34:54   That could have been Johnny Ive's idea.

00:34:55   He was big enough in the org that he could bounce that off,

00:34:58   but who decides, yes, we are going to make a watch?

00:34:59   Like, it bounces all over the place.

00:35:01   It's not entirely clear.

00:35:03   Within the realm of individual departments,

00:35:05   who's deciding what kind of Macs get made?

00:35:07   Should we continue to make iMacs or not?

00:35:10   Should we make a Mac Pro?

00:35:12   Should we have SD cards in our laptops?

00:35:15   Should we have an HDMI port?

00:35:17   You can see the decisions that influence that

00:35:19   all over the place.

00:35:20   Should we make a convertible laptop

00:35:21   that folds back and has a touchscreen?

00:35:22   Should we make touchscreen Macs?

00:35:23   Who makes that call?

00:35:25   In Apple's org chart, it is not entirely clear

00:35:28   where that comes from, and it often comes down

00:35:29   to individual personalities,

00:35:32   or people with particular power structures in the org

00:35:35   because of historical reasons,

00:35:37   and sometimes just as simple as someone,

00:35:39   some random part in the org chart has a conversation

00:35:41   someone that has a conversation with someone higher up that comes back down.

00:35:46   It's not as regimented.

00:35:48   That's part of what makes Apple and any sort of good company, like you can't have a regimented

00:35:52   structure where it's like, this is where all the decisions about product get made, and

00:35:55   this is where no one wants to work at that company, and that kind of company is sort

00:35:59   of ossified and just not particularly, I'll use buzzwords, agile or reactive to the market.

00:36:06   But the bottom line is those decisions do get made.

00:36:08   said we're gonna do some kind of car thing and that kind of car thing has

00:36:11   changed someone's making that decision right so in this scenario I don't think

00:36:16   industrial design has ever really been in the business of saying we should make

00:36:22   a watch we should make a car we should make a laptop we should make a laptop

00:36:26   with HDMI ports and an SD card right but Johnny I was certainly in the business

00:36:30   of potentially saying we should make a watch and Johnny I've is different than

00:36:33   saying the current industrial design team they're both the same part of the

00:36:36   org chart, but Johnny Ive is Johnny Ive, right?

00:36:39   And so that's why from the outside it's difficult to tell

00:36:42   who is deciding what kind of things Apple should make.

00:36:45   If you ask anybody in a particular org structure,

00:36:47   like ask Colleen, what's her name, Colleen Novotelli?

00:36:51   - Novielli. - I'm sorry.

00:36:51   - Novielli. - Novielli.

00:36:53   Like who decided that we were gonna make

00:36:55   a really, really skinny 20,

00:36:57   who decided we were gonna make a 24-inch iMac at all,

00:36:59   let alone the fact that it was skinny?

00:37:00   And they'd probably say, well, it was collaborative.

00:37:02   We knew we were gonna continue to make the iMac.

00:37:04   It's like, well, wait a second, how did you know that?

00:37:05   Was there ever a conversation of,

00:37:06   should we make IMAX anymore?

00:37:08   Oh no, you know, like,

00:37:09   and then who decided it was gonna be really skinny?

00:37:10   Well that was industrial design.

00:37:12   Like, it's just, it's a lot of give and take.

00:37:14   That's the way these products get made.

00:37:16   With the headset type thing,

00:37:17   someone decided years and years ago,

00:37:19   we should be looking into this AR/VR thing.

00:37:21   And I feel like it doesn't matter who said that.

00:37:24   Any, like, if it was operations, industrial design,

00:37:27   engineering, Tim Cook, you know,

00:37:31   someone's sister's brother's uncle's cousin,

00:37:33   Like, it doesn't matter where that idea came from.

00:37:36   The bottom line is,

00:37:37   as that idea somehow finds its way into executives,

00:37:40   and they all go, yeah, this is a thing we should look into.

00:37:42   We're Apple, this is right up our alley.

00:37:45   Other people are looking into it.

00:37:47   We can't ignore AR/VR.

00:37:49   We should look into this technology,

00:37:51   and we should probably have some kind of

00:37:53   Skunk Works project to do this.

00:37:55   That's probably needed as a decision,

00:37:56   and it's hard to trace back to any single person, maybe.

00:37:59   But then at this point, where you're like,

00:38:00   okay, we've been doing this,

00:38:01   we've been working on products,

00:38:03   Industrial design, we said on the past show,

00:38:04   there was the rumor that industrial design said,

00:38:06   it should be a stand, or Johnny Ive specifically said,

00:38:09   it shouldn't have a thing that you click on to your belt,

00:38:11   it should be stand alone, right?

00:38:13   You shouldn't have to connect it to your phone,

00:38:15   you shouldn't have to connect it to your Mac,

00:38:16   it should be a stand alone device.

00:38:18   Why does industrial design get to make that decision?

00:38:20   Is it just because, oh, that's part of the hardware design

00:38:22   in terms of like having a wire going from your head

00:38:24   down to the thing, or is it because

00:38:25   Johnny Ive is Johnny Ive?

00:38:27   Or is it some combination of those two things, right?

00:38:30   But that's the type of decision

00:38:31   you can imagine being influenced in here,

00:38:33   industrial design may think,

00:38:35   boy, having a ski goggles thing on your face is clunky.

00:38:38   And I kind of agree with them,

00:38:40   but then you could say, but industrial design,

00:38:42   like what do you want us to do?

00:38:44   Never ship anything until it's the fantasy version

00:38:46   in your head, because that's not technically possible

00:38:47   right now, and we're not entirely sure

00:38:49   when it will be technically possible.

00:38:51   So industrial design saying,

00:38:53   we should just continue to work on this

00:38:54   for another eight years and not ship anything,

00:38:56   I can imagine that falling on deaf ears

00:38:58   within the organization.

00:38:59   Especially since, as Gruber pointed out,

00:39:00   the team that is working on these goggles is like,

00:39:03   hundreds or thousands of people,

00:39:05   and gesture design is way smaller number of people.

00:39:07   And yeah, maybe they think Apple

00:39:08   shouldn't ship anything this clunky,

00:39:10   and that gets back to the long running discussion

00:39:11   we've had about,

00:39:12   should, is this, what are you gonna do with this product?

00:39:16   Is it gonna be flop or whatever?

00:39:17   But my personal opinion is that

00:39:19   they've been working on it so long,

00:39:22   they need to ship something

00:39:24   to get good at shipping this type of thing.

00:39:26   It's foolish to think that they could stay

00:39:29   in sort of stealth mode for 16 to 20 years,

00:39:32   and then pop out one day with the glasses, right?

00:39:35   Even though they've been doing all the groundwork

00:39:36   with all their frameworks, with AR/VR frameworks

00:39:38   and all that stuff, like they've been doing

00:39:40   the software side of it, you do need to get a product out

00:39:44   to people to learn from your mistakes,

00:39:46   which is tough for Apple to be in,

00:39:48   because anything they put out,

00:39:48   everyone's gonna have scrutiny on it

00:39:50   like they did with the watch.

00:39:50   Oh, if it's not the biggest hit product overnight,

00:39:52   Apple sucks, right?

00:39:54   It's the end of Apple, blah, blah, blah.

00:39:55   That's going to happen with this product.

00:39:57   I don't think it's going to be a smash hit.

00:39:59   But I think they need to, I agree with Tim Cook,

00:40:02   they need to ship this.

00:40:04   If they have something they think is plausibly useful

00:40:06   for some function and is a pretty good,

00:40:09   better version of what's out there now,

00:40:11   they need to ship it to get good

00:40:14   at shipping this type of thing,

00:40:16   kind of in case this type of thing

00:40:18   ends up being important in the future.

00:40:20   And we all kind of think that eventually

00:40:21   when this technology gets way, way better,

00:40:23   it will absolutely be important.

00:40:25   So don't sit on the sidelines, don't wait until everybody else gets all the experience

00:40:30   doing this.

00:40:32   I agree with Tim Cook, according to the story, that they should ship this.

00:40:37   I say this despite the fact that I still have no idea what this thing will be useful for

00:40:40   and I'm very pessimistic about the product, but sometimes that's just what you have to

00:40:46   do.

00:40:47   It's not an Apple-type thing to do, but in the realm of the technology, I believe so

00:40:52   so strongly that if and when technology arrives to have this not be a giant goggle on your

00:40:57   face that it will be transformative and incredibly useful, they need to get good at it.

00:41:02   So as painful as it's going to be for the whole org, they need to ship something that

00:41:08   they think is of Apple quality and learn from it.

00:41:10   Well, not only do they need to ship so they can get good at it, if there's going to be

00:41:15   a third-party developer story, then we need to get good at it too.

00:41:18   And most of the developers that I know, which is complete anecdotal, but of the developers

00:41:23   I know, I think only James Thompson has really fiddled that much with AR stuff.

00:41:27   I mean, maybe others have, maybe you guys have for all I know, but as far as I'm aware,

00:41:33   it's basically just James Thompson amongst our peer group.

00:41:36   And I don't have any empty tables in my house to play with.

00:41:39   Exactly.

00:41:40   And so if this is going to be a thing and if third party developers care about it, even

00:41:46   and just rank and file third-party developers like us,

00:41:48   then we need to start figuring all this out.

00:41:50   And I can tell you, I did really badly

00:41:52   in matrix mathematics when I was in college,

00:41:54   and I'm pretty sure that there's a lot of that involved

00:41:56   in AR stuff, so I'm fighting an uphill battle.

00:41:59   - Any 3D graphics stuff is gonna use matrices,

00:42:01   but you don't have to deal with it in modern code.

00:42:03   - Oh, fair, fair, fair.

00:42:04   - It's all below the surface that you're dealing with here.

00:42:07   No, but am I gonna have to buy a new blank desk to test?

00:42:10   Somewhere in my office, I need an empty table.

00:42:13   - It must be made of wood, and it must be, you know,

00:42:15   feet by three feet. Well that's the AR stuff, but the VR stuff is like, you know, gaming

00:42:20   is the obvious application, but if there's any kind of like thing you want to do, people

00:42:24   want to listen to podcasts where they see a 3D projection of the chapter art, people

00:42:27   don't even know podcasts have chapter art. I don't know. So, no, I mean, but people,

00:42:32   I mean, look, people probably will want to listen to podcasts in this thing and that's

00:42:35   what like, like I'm not, look, I'll tell you like, as a developer, I could not be less

00:42:41   excited about this, that's for the moment, just because like, I'm right in the middle

00:42:44   of this giant rewrite, the last thing I wanna do

00:42:47   is get a new platform dropped on me

00:42:48   that I have to support right now.

00:42:50   Maybe next year would be a little bit better.

00:42:52   But no, I mean, I think if you,

00:42:54   going back to this article just for a minute here,

00:42:56   I think, even though I just told you,

00:43:00   be careful what narratives people weave from rumors,

00:43:03   and meanwhile I'm about to weave one.

00:43:05   But I think what the story here might be,

00:43:09   because when you look at a leak or a rumor,

00:43:12   you gotta figure like why did the leaker

00:43:15   share this information with a journalist?

00:43:17   And oftentimes, they have an ax to grind.

00:43:21   Or they're trying to get something changed

00:43:23   or they're upset about or something.

00:43:24   Trying to get some decision reversed or made or whatever.

00:43:27   And if you look at this story,

00:43:28   you can pick up bits and pieces from other recent changes

00:43:32   and things at Apple, some of which have been good.

00:43:35   It seems like the industrial design department

00:43:39   is losing its authority a little bit in Apple.

00:43:43   And it's coming from a pretty high place.

00:43:45   Like the Steve Jobs and Johnny Ive,

00:43:48   and then later Tim Cook and Johnny Ive era

00:43:51   really had industrial design having tons of influence

00:43:55   and control over the products to the point where,

00:43:57   we've heard stories from people about how industrial design

00:44:02   wouldn't let them ship something until they centered a screw

00:44:05   or they would force them to fit the internals

00:44:09   of this product into this little skinny enclosure

00:44:12   even if it really could have been a lot better

00:44:14   with a few more millimeters, but they would be like,

00:44:16   no, you have to fit it in these dimensions,

00:44:18   this is our design, period.

00:44:20   It seems like Industrial Design had a huge amount

00:44:22   of influence that could basically dictate what they wanted

00:44:25   and the rest of the company would have to fall in line.

00:44:28   And in the last few years after Johnny's departure,

00:44:31   or maybe as part of Johnny's departure,

00:44:33   but in the last few years,

00:44:35   they seem to have lost some of that influence.

00:44:37   - I think it's not just his departure,

00:44:39   - Yeah, it's not just his departure,

00:44:41   it's the things that were done

00:44:43   that could conceivably be laid at the feet

00:44:46   of industrial design.

00:44:47   - Right, like the butterfly keyboard.

00:44:50   - Well, that's maybe not necessarily industrial,

00:44:53   it's hard to tell from the outside.

00:44:54   - But look, you can look at things like

00:44:56   the 2013 trash can Mac Pro, the butterfly keyboard,

00:44:59   the whole series of 2016 to 2020 MacBook Pros

00:45:03   that people really had a lot of practical problems with

00:45:07   or features that were removed.

00:45:09   That gets into what I was saying before about who decided that the laptops wouldn't have

00:45:13   ports anymore and they would just have USB-C shaped holes.

00:45:16   That is a product decision, but it seems like, again from the outside, it seems like it might

00:45:20   have been heavily influenced by industrial design.

00:45:22   I think the keyboard thing is not necessarily clear that that was laid at the feet of industrial

00:45:28   design.

00:45:29   Maybe the fact that they had to make that keyboard to begin with could be laid at the

00:45:31   feet of industrial design, but shipping it for six years I think was not industrial design.

00:45:36   Anyway, that's why it's so hard from the outside.

00:45:38   But I have to say that the influence

00:45:40   is not just because of Johnny Laffa,

00:45:41   because whatever the organization as a whole was doing,

00:45:44   the outside world and the market has decided

00:45:47   this is not what we want from Apple products.

00:45:49   Like the laptops we complained about for ages,

00:45:51   that they were too thin and had too few ports

00:45:53   and had too little utility

00:45:54   and people didn't really like the touch bar.

00:45:56   Whoever's decision that was in Apple,

00:45:59   if any of that can be laid at the feet

00:46:01   of industrial design, industrial design

00:46:03   should have some of their power taken away

00:46:05   because they made a lot of bad calls.

00:46:07   Maybe that wasn't industrial design.

00:46:08   Whoever's fault it was, some part of the Apple organization

00:46:11   made some bad calls about product decisions, right?

00:46:15   What features should this product have?

00:46:17   Should it have an SD card slot or not?

00:46:19   Should it have HDMI port?

00:46:20   Should it, you know, how thin should it be?

00:46:23   How important is battery life?

00:46:24   Even the iPhones, you could say,

00:46:25   with the iPhone 6 when it was getting thinner and thinner

00:46:27   and they were bendy and the battery life was bad,

00:46:29   at some point, Apple as an organization changed course

00:46:32   and said we're gonna make the phones thicker

00:46:33   and make the batteries bigger.

00:46:35   that's a better product decision.

00:46:36   And even though we can't attribute blame

00:46:40   for any individual one thing,

00:46:41   'cause we don't know what's going on,

00:46:43   it is reasonable to conclude that industrial design

00:46:45   had a lot of influence over,

00:46:47   because we know kind of their ethos,

00:46:48   and the Johnny I. have ethos of minimal,

00:46:51   not a lot of external features, very small, thin, simple.

00:46:55   We can see that, and we attribute that to industrial design,

00:46:58   and we think, at least on this podcast,

00:46:59   that a lot of the decisions were not the right ones.

00:47:01   And so yes, Johnny I. have left as the big personality,

00:47:04   but also industrial design, there should be a give and take

00:47:08   between engineering and industrial design.

00:47:09   Like what you said before, like industrial design says,

00:47:11   no, here's how much space you have,

00:47:12   we're not gonna change our design.

00:47:13   Engineering shouldn't be 100% overruled

00:47:16   by industrial design all the time.

00:47:18   It has to be a give and take.

00:47:19   - Yeah, and I think what we've seen in the products

00:47:23   over the last few years is more of a give and take

00:47:26   between what is good engineering,

00:47:29   what your customers want and what serves them best,

00:47:32   and what industrial design wants to make

00:47:35   visually and form-wise.

00:47:36   We've seen that be better balanced

00:47:38   in the last few years in the product.

00:47:40   That's why we're all so happy with all the recent products

00:47:42   because they've done such a good job of rebalancing that

00:47:46   'cause it had gone too far in one direction

00:47:49   and now it has become more of a give and take.

00:47:51   And if you look at this article,

00:47:53   it kinda just sounds like there was somebody

00:47:55   on the design team who leaked all this

00:47:58   who maybe was just resentful

00:48:01   that they didn't have ultimate authority anymore

00:48:03   or they didn't have as much authority as they used to.

00:48:05   - But in this case, it's not like they had,

00:48:06   in this case if you said,

00:48:07   okay, fine industrial design person,

00:48:10   what do you wanna do?

00:48:10   Because we can't ship the thing

00:48:12   that the industrial design thing is wanting here.

00:48:15   We should ship glasses.

00:48:16   Well, we don't have glasses, nobody has that.

00:48:18   It's like saying, well, we should ship a self-driving car.

00:48:20   Well, great, but nobody has that.

00:48:21   So what they're saying instead is,

00:48:24   we should just not ship anything.

00:48:25   - Well, I hear Tesla's gonna release that

00:48:27   like just like right around the corner, right?

00:48:28   - Any minute now.

00:48:30   But that's their position is we should just not ship anything.

00:48:34   And that is a position to have, but after however many years,

00:48:38   was it seven years in development or whatever,

00:48:40   someone somewhere has decided that they think

00:48:42   that there's some use of this product that has reached

00:48:45   a point where presumably it is like one of the best headsets

00:48:49   on the market given its price.

00:48:51   Because you would expect that from Apple, right?

00:48:52   They're good at this type of thing, okay?

00:48:54   And the question is should we ship that or not?

00:48:57   An industrial design person might think,

00:48:59   "I hate this product.

00:49:01   "I would never use it.

00:49:02   "I don't think it's particularly useful, blah, blah, blah."

00:49:05   - It's me.

00:49:06   - Well, I mean, we've all kind of said the same thing,

00:49:08   but I feel like from Tim Cook's perspective,

00:49:10   if you believe that this type of product

00:49:13   will eventually be important

00:49:14   when the hardware catches up with it,

00:49:16   it is somewhat important for Apple to get good.

00:49:19   And you could say the same things about the iPhone.

00:49:20   It's like, "Well, Apple didn't ship a phone

00:49:22   "until they had totally nailed it."

00:49:23   Yeah, but they did make the Newton, right?

00:49:26   It's not that I'm saying this headset is gonna be

00:49:28   the Newton of AR/VR stuff.

00:49:30   You have to kind of get good about making

00:49:31   small electronic objects with screens

00:49:33   and touch screens and pens.

00:49:35   Apple, before the iPhone, Apple,

00:49:37   it's not like Apple had never shipped

00:49:38   anything like it before, right?

00:49:40   And it's the same thing with everything Apple has done.

00:49:44   The iPhone came from stuff they were doing internally

00:49:46   with tablet type stuff.

00:49:47   And even though the iPad came later,

00:49:48   they repurposed that technological experience

00:49:51   to a shipping product and eventually got good enough

00:49:53   to ship the tablet, blah, blah, blah.

00:49:56   I agree with most people that this type of technology will eventually become important

00:50:00   when the tech catches up.

00:50:01   So I think it is important for Apple to get this experience.

00:50:05   It's just awkward for everybody involved to kind of agree, I mean maybe they don't internally,

00:50:09   but from the outside we feel like they're going to ship a product and it's not really

00:50:13   going to be, we're going to be doing the show being like, "Oh, I don't think I'm going to

00:50:16   buy one of these.

00:50:17   I have no use for it.

00:50:18   It's not for me.

00:50:19   Marker's going to be like, 'It doesn't really apply to my application.'"

00:50:20   We're going to say all these things, but from Apple's perspective, if they think they have

00:50:25   a product that somebody might want to use, you can't just develop this internally for

00:50:29   16 years and just arrive on days.

00:50:32   It's like if Apple had never made a laptop computer and never made a Newton, they would

00:50:36   not have been able to make that.

00:50:37   Or the iPod.

00:50:38   The iPod is a great example.

00:50:40   The experience they got building tiny electronics with the iPod, and I would say the Newton

00:50:44   even though it wasn't that tiny, were important contributors to the institutional knowledge,

00:50:48   even if it's just the knowledge of how to get suppliers and assemble things and blah,

00:50:51   that made them more able to make the iPhone.

00:50:55   I think this type of, in the best case scenario,

00:50:58   this headset is that type of product

00:50:59   where it will give the organization

00:51:02   some important experience of getting this thing

00:51:04   into actual users' hands and finding out

00:51:06   what they did wrong, because internal testing,

00:51:09   especially their super secretive internal testing

00:51:11   where like such a small number of people ever see this,

00:51:14   is never going to be sufficient for them to figure out

00:51:17   if they've really got this right,

00:51:18   if they've really made it comfortable,

00:51:20   understood the problems,

00:51:21   have they solved the motion sickness thing?

00:51:24   Are people gonna use it for what they think they're gonna use?

00:51:26   Look at the Apple Watch.

00:51:27   They had all sorts of ideas about people

00:51:28   that might be interested in using it for,

00:51:30   but they needed to put it out on the market

00:51:31   and find out what people actually did wanna use it for,

00:51:34   and then they corrected course,

00:51:35   and I hope that's what happens here.

00:51:37   - I think also, you know,

00:51:38   hardware does not just come out of nowhere.

00:51:42   Hardware does not develop out of nowhere.

00:51:43   Hardware develops out of a process over time

00:51:46   that is funded by a market that's buying it.

00:51:48   And so if we want to get to the AR glasses future,

00:51:53   there needs to be a market that leads us there,

00:51:58   that funds all of the hardware development

00:52:00   along the way to get there.

00:52:01   We need to start buying components now

00:52:04   that are kind of in the ballpark of the stuff we want,

00:52:07   and shipping them in products to create that big market

00:52:11   so that more suppliers put more time and money

00:52:13   and research into those areas to develop the smaller

00:52:15   and smaller and better and better version of those things.

00:52:17   these things don't develop on their own.

00:52:19   Look at the world of tiny camera sensors

00:52:22   that used to be basically nonexistent or terrible.

00:52:25   Once the smartphone came out, that market exploded.

00:52:29   And now, people poured tons and tons of money and research

00:52:34   into making awesome tiny optics and tiny cameras

00:52:37   and tiny camera processing things

00:52:38   because there was a huge market of phones

00:52:41   that had crappy cameras that wanted better cameras.

00:52:44   And that market is now massive.

00:52:45   it developed because the market was supporting it

00:52:49   along the way and having a huge amount of demand

00:52:51   and basically rewarding people who would invest

00:52:55   into making those components better.

00:52:57   But we're not gonna get from VR headsets

00:53:01   nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing

00:53:03   and then 10 years from now, AR goggles or AR glasses.

00:53:06   There has to be a market along the way

00:53:09   to cause those components to be

00:53:11   iteratively developed over time.

00:53:13   So you do have to kind of release this thing

00:53:17   in the sooner term rather than the later term.

00:53:19   You can't just sit back and wait and say,

00:53:21   all right, in 10 years, we'll take advantage

00:53:23   of the components that exist then

00:53:25   without having done anything in the meantime

00:53:27   to make those components exist.

00:53:29   - And because Apple's competitors,

00:53:30   it's not like, oh, if Apple doesn't make the market,

00:53:32   nobody will, no, somebody else might do make that market

00:53:34   and be iterating and be selling.

00:53:36   And then when you arrive with the AR glasses,

00:53:37   everyone is locked into Facebook meta, headset,

00:53:42   whatever thing.

00:53:42   the competitors are also moving in this direction,

00:53:45   so it behooves you to not sit it out,

00:53:47   because if someone else gets momentum

00:53:50   and is actually selling hundreds and thousands

00:53:53   and millions of these things a year,

00:53:54   and then you arrive 10 years later with your thing,

00:53:56   it's gotta be so much better than theirs.

00:53:58   So anyway, this market is still a big question mark,

00:54:01   but it's like, unlike the car,

00:54:03   it is so straightforwardly aligned

00:54:06   with everything else that Apple does,

00:54:07   that if this becomes a thing, Apple needs to do this.

00:54:10   And there are synergies with everything else that it does.

00:54:11   screen technology, wireless technology, SOCs,

00:54:15   all the silicon stuff like 3D, GPUs,

00:54:20   it's not completely out of left field.

00:54:23   So even if they never shipped a product,

00:54:25   they would be getting some benefit.

00:54:26   And it's interesting to compare it to the car

00:54:28   where it seems like the car program,

00:54:31   they have never been at a point where they had something

00:54:33   that was even plausibly shippable.

00:54:34   They didn't have a car they wanted to ship,

00:54:36   they didn't have self-driving that they wanted to ship,

00:54:38   they didn't have a thing they were gonna sell

00:54:39   to other car makers.

00:54:41   I don't think they've ever even been at a decision point like this, which is like, "Conceivably,

00:54:44   we could ship this as an Apple product, but should we or not?"

00:54:48   The car stuff is like, "What are we even making here?"

00:54:51   Too many shovels, too many reboots, and kind of like the VR thing, like you were saying,

00:54:56   Margaux, Apple does have a lot of money, and they could just pile money into things for

00:54:59   years and years, and they have huge amounts of money hiring huge amounts of people, resets,

00:55:03   blah, blah, blah.

00:55:04   Apple has the luxury of doing that, but it's not the ideal scenario.

00:55:10   I remember the story about how much money it cost to develop the original iPhone.

00:55:13   It was like $150 million or something absurd, absurdly low in case that's not clear.

00:55:20   And the number of people and the amount of money and the time they spent to develop the

00:55:23   first iPhone, compare that to the number of people, amount of money and time they spent

00:55:26   on either the AR/VR headset or the car and what do they have to show for it.

00:55:32   It's not looking good for those projects.

00:55:33   Like it's not saying that Apple should do this.

00:55:36   They should sink money in many years into this type of stuff, but it would be much better

00:55:41   if they could get to a point where they have a product that people might want to buy to

00:55:44   help fund this, to help start the iteration loop, because your internal iteration is not

00:55:52   as interesting as external.

00:55:53   So, which one of us is going to take the fall and get this if it comes down to it?

00:55:56   Yeah, I was thinking about that.

00:55:57   I mean, I'm assuming it has to be Marco.

00:55:59   I mean, I have to get it if there's a developer story.

00:56:01   Yeah, exactly.

00:56:02   I feel like Marco for sure.

00:56:05   I feel like I'm the least likely just because I'm sure that if I'm any kind of ARV-er thing

00:56:10   is going to make me motion sick.

00:56:11   And that's true.

00:56:13   Like no matter what.

00:56:14   Well I'm a little afraid of that too because the Oculus thing that we have makes me a little

00:56:17   motion sick and also I can't see it very sharply.

00:56:21   And whatever like reading glasses thing I need to make it work doesn't like I even I

00:56:25   didn't talk about this in the show but I actually briefly got a FPV drone a couple months back.

00:56:31   What?!

00:56:32   And I ended up returning it because I really...

00:56:35   - Which one?

00:56:36   - The DJI, the little one with the guards around the things.

00:56:40   - You have to explain to people what that is

00:56:42   'cause they don't know that FUD is first person view.

00:56:44   - It's, yeah, so it's a type of drone,

00:56:46   I mean it's a camera drone like any other

00:56:48   but it's optimized for using like with goggles

00:56:52   and kind of flying it in first person view like that.

00:56:55   So it's more of an immersive thing

00:56:57   'cause like I love, like my favorite thing to do

00:56:59   with my drone is just like fly around and look at stuff.

00:57:01   Like I don't really need the footage for much of anything.

00:57:03   I just like flying around and looking at my town

00:57:05   and the ocean and you know, I like that.

00:57:08   And so I thought, you know, here's a new kind of drone

00:57:11   with a new kind of screen situation.

00:57:12   You know, I also wanted to get away,

00:57:14   like my old drone was the kind that uses the phone

00:57:17   as the screen and controlling app

00:57:19   and you like stick it in the controller dock

00:57:22   and that's always been such a pain in the butt

00:57:23   and so I never wanna do it.

00:57:24   So I'm like, all right, this is a whole standalone thing.

00:57:26   First of all, guess what?

00:57:28   Yet again, this is a brand new product from DJI,

00:57:31   a brand new product from a high-end hardware maker,

00:57:34   and you have to charge three things to get it to work.

00:57:37   You have to charge the drone battery itself,

00:57:40   this special battery pack for the goggles

00:57:43   that goes in your pocket, sound familiar?

00:57:45   Battery goes in your pocket,

00:57:46   runs a cable up to your goggles around your head.

00:57:49   By the way, that sucks,

00:57:50   like having that cable in your pocket.

00:57:53   Like this is why, if this is what's rumored

00:57:55   for the Apple headset of having a big battery pack

00:57:58   that you put in your pocket and have a cable that runs up,

00:58:00   - Oh man, I can't wait to not need that anymore.

00:58:03   - No, it'll just be wireless power delivery.

00:58:04   It'll slowly bake your internal organs.

00:58:06   - Yes, that'll be great, yes.

00:58:08   Yes, but anyway, so first of all,

00:58:10   the little hand controller,

00:58:11   that's the third thing you have to keep charged,

00:58:13   has a USB-C hole, but does not accept USB-C power.

00:58:17   You gotta use a USB-A cable for that and only that,

00:58:20   and the other two things support USB-C.

00:58:23   That's a brand new device from DJI.

00:58:25   It doesn't support USB power,

00:58:26   'cause they didn't do that one resistor

00:58:28   in the stupid hand controller.

00:58:30   Anyway, I ended up returning it for a few reasons,

00:58:32   but chief of which was that I just couldn't see

00:58:36   very sharply in the thing.

00:58:37   Like it was very hard to use because they have adjustments

00:58:40   and you can like adjust it.

00:58:41   I tried wearing glasses in it.

00:58:43   I tried adjusting all the diopter stuff and everything.

00:58:45   I just could not get it to a point.

00:58:46   And I had the same problem with the Oculus.

00:58:50   Like I can see the middle sharply, but not the edges.

00:58:53   And it's a little bit motion sicknessy for me.

00:58:56   And so I can only spend like a minute or two in it

00:58:59   and I don't feel good afterwards.

00:59:01   And I have that worry with the Apple thing, for sure.

00:59:04   As we are going into the VR world here,

00:59:08   it's worth considering that this is not

00:59:11   as universally accessible a technology as the phone,

00:59:14   and I think we should have much lower expectations

00:59:16   for its eventual adoption as a result.

00:59:18   - Well, I mean, it's not as accessible yet,

00:59:22   because the problems of motion sickness,

00:59:24   they've been working on that for years,

00:59:25   and they've been getting way better than they used to be.

00:59:27   And a lot of it actually has to do with technological limitations.

00:59:31   We can't get the frame rate up this high.

00:59:32   We can't get a screen that is this responsive.

00:59:34   There's a lot of things we know would work better, like the lag.

00:59:38   Lag is really bad.

00:59:40   We can't make the lag any lower than it is now.

00:59:44   Those are things that we know will help, we just can't do them yet.

00:59:47   And then there are the things we don't even know will help yet that people haven't developed.

00:59:51   There's a story I linked to ages ago, I don't know if I'll be able to find it again, about

00:59:55   the developers of Destiny did to fight motion sickness in their game and they

00:59:59   thought about it a lot and they did a lot of stuff and this is just a plain

01:00:02   old first-person game where you're looking at a screen but you can get sick

01:00:05   from those as well and the things they're doing nobody who's playing the

01:00:08   game even notices because it's the type of thing you wouldn't wouldn't even

01:00:12   occur to you unless you were a game developer working on this those type of

01:00:15   things we don't even know what all those are yet for AR VR headsets setting aside

01:00:19   technological stuff that we just can't do I'm sure there's stuff that we we

01:00:23   we haven't even realized, like things about the UI,

01:00:26   'cause a lot of the stuff in Destiny is like,

01:00:27   you know, what does it look like when you throw a grenade

01:00:30   or shoot things or whatever, or if your character jumps,

01:00:33   what do we do with the camera to not make you motion sick?

01:00:37   And with these goggles, it's like, okay,

01:00:39   how do we present an interface,

01:00:42   whether it's an AR interface

01:00:43   where you're decorating the world,

01:00:45   or whether it's a VR interface,

01:00:46   how do we present that interface

01:00:47   in a way that does not make people sick?

01:00:50   Setting aside just the glasses themselves,

01:00:52   like how do we present something?

01:00:53   How do we let them look at a virtual screen?

01:00:55   How do we present a UI?

01:00:56   We don't even know the answers to those questions yet.

01:00:59   They need to put this out in the real world

01:01:00   and figure that out.

01:01:02   Kind of like, you know, you can make your guess

01:01:04   about what's gonna be a good UI

01:01:06   for the phone or the iPad or whatever.

01:01:07   When you get out in front of people and people try it,

01:01:10   you learn things and you try again.

01:01:11   I feel like motion sickness is gonna take that same thing.

01:01:14   But unlike a clunky UI for notifications or something,

01:01:17   or lack of copy and paste,

01:01:19   this one actually makes people sick to their stomach.

01:01:21   So it's gonna be a harder sell, to your point, Marco,

01:01:24   that if someone has a negative experience

01:01:26   to convince them, oh no, it's better now,

01:01:27   and convince them to try again,

01:01:29   versus, oh, notifications are better

01:01:31   in the new version of iOS.

01:01:32   - Right, and there's gonna be people,

01:01:35   like maybe like me, who, like hey,

01:01:37   this thing just doesn't fit me in some way.

01:01:39   Like for some reason, this is not comfortable

01:01:41   or usable for me.

01:01:43   And there's gonna be a lot of people like that

01:01:44   for anything that goes in the eye.

01:01:45   I mean, look at, I mean look, Casey, you have weird eyes.

01:01:48   We all have weird eyes in different ways.

01:01:50   - Some weird than others, I think Casey is the king

01:01:52   of the weirdness here, but like, you know.

01:01:53   - Well, yes and no, actually.

01:01:55   I don't take offense to what you're saying, not a bit,

01:01:57   but in a way, my eyes are not that weird

01:02:00   as long as I have my contacts in.

01:02:02   I'm not like John.

01:02:03   In this case, I think John has weirder eyes,

01:02:05   only because he's contending. - That's how older eyes.

01:02:07   - Well, that's true, but you're contending with--

01:02:10   - You'll have older eyes.

01:02:11   - I turned 41, just a couple days, it's getting bad.

01:02:14   But no, I don't need anything on my face

01:02:18   in order to see, I was going to say well,

01:02:20   but I'll just say as well as I possibly can.

01:02:23   Whereas John is going to have to figure out

01:02:25   what to do with his glasses.

01:02:26   Can he keep them on?

01:02:27   Is there special bespoke lenses?

01:02:29   - One of the rumors of the Apple thing is they have,

01:02:31   and a lot of these ARV era headsets have,

01:02:33   like Margot was talking about the diopter adjustment,

01:02:35   which is just a lens in there,

01:02:37   cameras have that in there,

01:02:38   and their viewfinders and stuff, right?

01:02:40   But the rumor of the Apple ones is they have

01:02:42   a particular accommodation for prescription type lenses.

01:02:45   And again, in theory, Apple is the company

01:02:47   that could do that well.

01:02:48   Doing it well is expensive.

01:02:50   If you want to adjust for your astigmatism and everything,

01:02:53   you'd have to get very expensive, fancy custom lenses

01:02:56   to slot into your headset.

01:02:57   And if headsets become really popular, people will do that.

01:03:00   It will be worthwhile.

01:03:01   Same way people get glasses for their computer.

01:03:03   I'm wearing my quote unquote computer glasses right now,

01:03:05   which is a prescription custom tailored by my eye doctor

01:03:08   to be most relaxing for my old man eyesight

01:03:11   looking at computer screens.

01:03:13   But I have different glasses for driving.

01:03:15   If AR/VR becomes popular, or VR headsets become popular,

01:03:19   and Apple will eventually have to accommodate

01:03:22   prescription lenses of a fancy, expensive kind

01:03:26   that is custom to people so they can comfortably spend

01:03:30   X number of hours per day in their VR meetings or whatever,

01:03:32   if that market ever emerges.

01:03:34   - Yeah, and so, you know,

01:03:36   stepping aside from our weird eye contest,

01:03:38   this is an area that I think is significant.

01:03:44   it's a significant challenge in the goggles kind of space

01:03:47   because there is such a wide array of different eyesight

01:03:52   needs that people have that's,

01:03:55   I think that's a major challenge to any product.

01:03:59   Eyesight is just one part of it, as you know,

01:04:01   as I mentioned, motion sickness and motion perception,

01:04:04   there's all sorts of different other possible challenges

01:04:07   that a phone is, phones aren't universally accessible,

01:04:13   but I think they are significantly more accessible

01:04:16   than goggles will be, and that's gonna be something

01:04:20   that we have to contend with.

01:04:21   And maybe version one doesn't fit very well

01:04:24   for a lot of people.

01:04:25   Like, you know, AirPods were like that.

01:04:26   I mean, AirPods version one, like,

01:04:28   a lot of people liked it.

01:04:30   I couldn't wear 'em.

01:04:30   A lot of people couldn't wear 'em.

01:04:32   And they came up with the AirPods Pros,

01:04:34   and then a different set of people could wear them.

01:04:35   I happened to fit into that set.

01:04:36   I was very happy, but some people then couldn't wear those.

01:04:40   And the closest, most recent product to this

01:04:45   for fit and comfort reasons might be the AirPods Max,

01:04:48   which are another thing that's kinda heavy

01:04:51   and goes on your head,

01:04:52   but they're not super comfortable in my opinion either.

01:04:55   And so these are hard problems to solve

01:04:59   in product development, and it might take a while

01:05:02   before this product line is even able to be mass market,

01:05:07   even setting aside the price and desirability aspects of it.

01:05:10   Like maybe physically it can't be mass market

01:05:12   for a long time.

01:05:13   - And not only that, but if this is as expensive

01:05:16   as people are saying it will be,

01:05:18   and I mean we heard this about the iPad, right?

01:05:19   Like everyone thought it was gonna be

01:05:20   a thousand plus dollars for the first iPad

01:05:22   and it was like 500 bucks,

01:05:23   which is still, I mean, a lot of money,

01:05:25   but nevertheless, if this is like a multi-thousand dollar,

01:05:28   like for funsies thing, I don't know a lot of people

01:05:32   that have a couple of grand, including me for the record,

01:05:35   that have a couple of grand just burning a hole

01:05:37   their pockets that they just really want to throw in the direction of their

01:05:40   nearest Apple Store. It's not the sort of thing like a phone which has

01:05:44   become like a critical part of everyone's everyday life. It's not even

01:05:50   like an Apple Watch which I would argue is not at all critical but something

01:05:53   that many people including me feel like is something you want to have on you

01:05:57   pretty much always. This is just a toy right now or I mean unless they have

01:06:01   some compelling use for it that I'm not thinking of but this is a appears to be

01:06:05   just a toy and a couple thousand dollars for just a toy that's a lot of money

01:06:11   that I don't think all that many people like in this economy you know I don't

01:06:14   know that all that many people have a couple thousand dollars just looking to

01:06:18   be spent on something that is very unproven and may or may not even work

01:06:22   for their bodies like you were saying like it's a big ask I mean really the

01:06:26   best time to release it would have been right at the beginning of kovat when

01:06:29   everybody was like trying to figure out you know more interesting stuff they

01:06:31   could do without going anywhere like that that would have been perfect you

01:06:35   they missed that opportunity, but it wasn't ready yet.

01:06:38   But if they make a compelling case for this,

01:06:42   and that's a huge if, and we'll talk about that,

01:06:45   I'm sure, for many months,

01:06:46   but if they make a compelling case for this,

01:06:48   I think there is a market for it.

01:06:50   It's not gonna start out as a very big market.

01:06:52   It doesn't need to, but there is a market.

01:06:56   It's not gonna be easy to make a compelling product

01:07:00   of this type, and that's why I think

01:07:03   it has taken them so long and they still haven't shipped.

01:07:06   I don't think it's about necessarily

01:07:09   the industrial design aesthetics or anything.

01:07:12   I think it's more likely that the product

01:07:15   just really hasn't been compelling enough yet

01:07:17   and that maybe they have internal disagreements about

01:07:20   is it good enough to ship yet or not.

01:07:22   Not necessarily should we even bother

01:07:25   with this category of XR headset at all,

01:07:29   but do we have enough here to make it worth

01:07:31   shipping version one, or have we not even reached that yet?

01:07:34   That's probably the actual debate,

01:07:36   and or does the industrial design team

01:07:38   object to being overruled in certain ways,

01:07:42   or object to having to be a little more collaborative

01:07:45   and a little more give and take in other ways,

01:07:46   but for this product by itself,

01:07:49   it wouldn't surprise me if it's kind of on shaky ground

01:07:53   until very, very recently as to whether they even have

01:07:55   something worth shipping at all,

01:07:56   and if they think they finally have it

01:07:59   and we're about to get it,

01:08:01   - Well, I'm damn curious to see what they have deemed

01:08:04   worth shipping because, again,

01:08:06   I don't have the imagination or the foresight

01:08:08   to be able to see for myself,

01:08:10   oh, this is gonna be amazing.

01:08:11   I haven't seen that yet, but I'm wrong a lot,

01:08:14   so maybe they have something amazing,

01:08:16   and we just don't know it yet.

01:08:17   - The long pole in this project has gotta be software

01:08:19   at this point, that's what the rumors have been.

01:08:21   So I feel like I'm willing to take at face value

01:08:24   the industrial design objection outlined here,

01:08:26   which is basically we shouldn't ship a goggly product.

01:08:29   Right, it's not that this goggly product

01:08:30   isn't good enough or not ready, because I think the thing that is not ready about this

01:08:33   and the thing that has been delaying it is the software side of it.

01:08:35   And that's very often the case, because the software side of it is difficult and really

01:08:40   defines the experience.

01:08:41   The hardware part of it you can make as good as you can make, and the hardware part of

01:08:43   it is mostly a trade-off between price and technology, and you have to kind of do that

01:08:50   balance.

01:08:51   And I feel like that's where industrial design and engineering are bouncing off each other,

01:08:54   trying to come up with the best goggle they can get and iterating it over year after year.

01:08:57   Industrial Design might agree, still disagree that they've got something shippable, but

01:09:01   the objection to this article is like, we shouldn't even do this until we can make Clark

01:09:04   Kent glasses, right?

01:09:05   And that's, I mean, I feel like that's a position to have, but I think it's the wrong position,

01:09:11   and I think it's kind of tantrum-y, it's like, we should wait until we have flying cars.

01:09:14   Can we make just a regular car first?

01:09:16   Not that I'm saying Apple should make a regular car, but it's an analogy.

01:09:19   I wish it wasn't so, I wish it could be just an analogy, but alas, Apple is rumored to

01:09:24   be investigating that as well.

01:09:25   So anyway, we'll see, but like, I think,

01:09:29   we'll find out when they ship something,

01:09:33   because if they ship something and we're like,

01:09:34   oh, you know what, you just said, Marco,

01:09:35   like, even if you agree that Apple should be

01:09:38   in the goggles market, these are bad goggles.

01:09:41   We'll say that when they come out,

01:09:42   and then we'll retroactively say,

01:09:43   that must have been the debate or whatever,

01:09:45   but this story is very straightforward in trying to say,

01:09:47   we shouldn't ship a thing like this.

01:09:49   We should wait until we make glasses.

01:09:51   It's like, okay, whoever has that opinion,

01:09:53   that is an opinion to have,

01:09:55   but I think it would be the wrong move for Apple

01:09:57   and apparently the company is going to ship something.

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01:11:40   (upbeat music)

01:11:43   - So there's been a bit of a brouhaha

01:11:45   over the last week or so.

01:11:47   It was not about Apple, it was instead about Samsung.

01:11:50   and their space zoom photos, which may or may not be enhanced, quote unquote, by AI.

01:11:56   So what the heck am I talking about? So in the Samsung S20 Ultra, which has one of these

01:12:03   periscope style lenses that we've heard for years the iPhone is getting this year, this is the year.

01:12:08   Well, they actually have one and it does a 100x zoom. And I think some of that is digital. Some

01:12:13   of that is optical. I'm not entirely sure. And honestly, it doesn't really matter for the purposes

01:12:17   of this conversation, but people have noticed that they take these phones take just absolutely

01:12:24   stunning images of the moon. And somebody on Reddit started looking into this and they

01:12:29   wrote, "Many of us have witnessed the breathtaking moon photos taken with this latest zoom lens,

01:12:33   starting with the Samsung S20 Ultra. I've always had doubts about their authenticity

01:12:37   as they appear almost too perfect. While these images are not necessarily outright fabrications,

01:12:42   neither are they entirely genuine. Many people believe the moon photos are real. Even MKBHD

01:12:46   claimed this in a popular YouTube short that the moon is not an overlay like Huawei or

01:12:51   how do you pronounce that? Is it Huawei? Yeah. Okay, sure. Huawei has been accused of in

01:12:56   the past, but he's not correct. And eventually he, by the way, put up a full on correction

01:13:01   video, which we're going to talk about here in a second. But what this person did was

01:13:05   absolutely fascinating. And I'm probably going to get the terminology wrong, but the gist

01:13:08   of it is they took a picture of the moon and they blurred the snot out of it. So you could

01:13:13   barely recognize it as a moon. They put it on their computer screen, turned all the lights off,

01:13:17   went across the room or whatever, and zoomed in on this moon that has been blurred. So it is a

01:13:25   picture of the moon, but the source material is blurry because the only thing being shown on the

01:13:30   screen is a blurry image. And the image that came out from the camera was this very crisp image of

01:13:37   the moon where there were details that did not exist on the computer screen. Again, the source

01:13:42   was blurred. It's not like it was hard to see. It literally was blurred. There was no

01:13:47   more detail to be had because the original was blurred. Well, somehow that blurry original

01:13:53   got "sharpened" with mega air quotes into a very accurate picture of the moon. Which

01:13:59   seems then that what's going on is the phone is just filling in a picture of the moon and

01:14:06   calling it good. And so what MKBHD's follow-up video starts asking, and I thought it was

01:14:13   a really, really, really good question, and maybe I should turn it over to Jon and we

01:14:18   can channel a little robot or not, but MKBHD asked, "What is a photo?" You know, in short,

01:14:25   and he does a very, very good job of explaining it, but in short, is this a photo? Like, if

01:14:30   they really, if you are taking a picture of the moon and the phone figures out, okay,

01:14:34   What should the Moon look like from where you're standing at this phase of the Moon,

01:14:38   at this time, and so on and so forth?

01:14:40   And it becomes effectively a picture of what you would see if you had better equipment.

01:14:46   Is that still a photo?

01:14:47   Is that cheating?

01:14:48   Is that okay?

01:14:49   And it was a really interesting question.

01:14:52   So Jon, is it a photo?

01:14:54   Yeah, I think this question is less complicated than people make it sound, which is the main

01:14:58   reason I wanted to put this in here.

01:14:59   But a few notes before that, which I haven't seen brought up in many places.

01:15:03   One is that we do have, and have for many years, various techniques to take a blurry

01:15:09   image and quote-unquote "retrieve detail."

01:15:12   So a lot of people on the Reddit thread are like, "But it's blurry!

01:15:14   You can't get detail that's not there!"

01:15:17   We do actually have ways to do that, especially if you have some knowledge of some constraints.

01:15:22   So for example, we've seen the thing where if like, "Oh, be careful when you blur text

01:15:26   on a screenshot or something you post because you can take the blurred text and reverse

01:15:31   that blur to get out the original images, mostly because we know what letterforms look

01:15:35   like and we, you know, like it is a more constrained problem, but that is not outside the realm

01:15:39   of reason and that is not any kind of like, it's not like, you know, when you're in your

01:15:43   unblurring text, it's not quite the same thing as we're talking about here.

01:15:47   So I think this, you know, look, it's proof.

01:15:49   They must be just taking a picture of the moon and slapping on it because there's no

01:15:52   way you can get this detail back.

01:15:53   I think we could using preexisting pre-quote unquote AI algorithms.

01:15:58   I hate that phrase because it has nothing to do with AI really.

01:16:01   In the past, and technologies that existed in years past, I think it is actually possible

01:16:06   to unblur a picture of the moon and get something reasonable.

01:16:09   But setting that aside, that doesn't appear to be what they're doing here.

01:16:12   The other interesting thing is that this whole thing about Samsung messing things with the

01:16:16   moon has come up, even just on Reddit, several times in the past years.

01:16:19   There's an older one that was, I think, from several years ago, where this person's experiment

01:16:22   was they took a picture of the moon and they drew a smiley face on it in gray paint, in

01:16:26   a paint program and then they took a picture with their Samsung camera and the Samsung

01:16:30   camera dutifully made the smiley face look like a crater-y smiley face.

01:16:34   Because the Samsung camera knows moon is supposed to be crater-y and it knows that that's a

01:16:40   moon, and so I will crater-ify it.

01:16:43   And Samsung has an explanation of this.

01:16:44   I originally had a link to their Korean forum post about it, but they have an English one.

01:16:48   There's a Verge story here where it says Samsung responds to fake moon controversy and Samsung

01:16:52   explains.

01:16:53   to say, "Hey, we use AI image processing,

01:16:55   and we do this, and here's our pipeline, and blah, blah."

01:16:57   What they basically say is,

01:16:59   "Our camera recognizes that you're taking

01:17:00   a picture of the moon.

01:17:01   It knows it's a moon, and it uses quote, unquote AI

01:17:04   to quote, unquote enhance the image,"

01:17:05   which is what everybody is saying.

01:17:07   So getting back to Casey's and MKBHD's question,

01:17:11   what is a photo?

01:17:12   When I see this, there's definitely a camp

01:17:16   that I see reacting to these stories,

01:17:19   where you say, "Okay, well,

01:17:22   Anytime there's a new technology, people complain about it and think it's unnatural and shouldn't

01:17:27   be used and unholy and old ways are best and it's an abomination, but eventually those

01:17:33   people die and we just get used to it and it becomes the new normal.

01:17:36   And I'm here to tell you that in this specific case, this question of photos versus enhanced

01:17:44   photo or augmented photos is not the type of thing that is going to wipe away the old

01:17:52   thing. It is a new thing that will be in our arsenal and become very important for the

01:17:56   future, but we will never get to a point where nobody has any interest in taking an "old"

01:18:02   style photo, and I'll explain why. So this is a related story that was in the New Yorker,

01:18:06   believe it or not. It was talking about ChatGBT, trying to explain to people how it works and

01:18:10   what it is and what it isn't. And it is actually very relevant to this moon thing in an interesting

01:18:14   way. So I'm going to try to summarize this rather than read it because it's kind of long.

01:18:17   But the bottom line is, someone was using a Xerox photocopier, and they were photocopying

01:18:21   floor plans and they photocopied it but the photocopy had the wrong measurements

01:18:26   like they have measurements on the wall like this wall is five this wall is ten

01:18:28   this wall whatever and then when they would photocopy it the photocopy would

01:18:31   have the wrong measurements it made all the walls the same length as one of the

01:18:35   walls and it like it wasn't supposed to be a square it was like they were

01:18:38   different lengths right which is like the weirdest bug you can ever imagine

01:18:41   you're like is someone playing a practical joke on me not only is it a

01:18:45   weird bug but it's also like potentially super dangerous what if you're making

01:18:48   like plans for like an airplane or something a space thing or some safety

01:18:51   like a bridge or like when you make a Xerox,

01:18:54   you know, using the proprietary eponym,

01:18:55   when you make a photocopy, you kind of expect the paper

01:18:58   to come out to be a copy of the one you put in.

01:19:00   And if the one you put in says this is five feet,

01:19:01   this is 10 feet, this is 12 feet,

01:19:03   and it comes back and they're all five feet,

01:19:04   you might not notice that,

01:19:06   because why would you even check that, right?

01:19:08   And so the explanation, and I'll read this

01:19:10   because it is slightly detailed, right?

01:19:12   Here's the explanation of what was going on.

01:19:14   Xerox photocopiers use lossy compression format

01:19:16   known as JBig2, designed for use of black and white images.

01:19:19   To save space, the copier identifies similar looking regions in the image and stores a

01:19:23   single copy for all of them. When the file is decompressed, it uses that copy repeatedly

01:19:27   to reconstruct the image. It turned out that the photocopier had judged the labels specifying

01:19:32   the area of the rooms to be similar enough that it needed to only store one of them

01:19:35   (the one with the value 14.13) and it reused that one for all three rooms when printing the floor plan.

01:19:41   The fact that ChatGPT rephrases material from the web instead of quoting it word for word makes it

01:19:46   it seems like a student expressing their ideas in their own words rather than simply regurgitating

01:19:49   what she reads.

01:19:50   It creates the illusion that ChatGPT understands the material.

01:19:53   So this saying that ChatGPT does a similar thing.

01:19:55   It finds an occurrence of this, seems like it's a good stand-in and repeats it.

01:19:58   The moon, same deal.

01:19:59   I recognize that's the moon.

01:20:01   I know what the moon looks like.

01:20:03   I don't have to pay any attention to what your camera took a picture of, and honestly,

01:20:10   the Samsung camera is just a blurry white ball at that point.

01:20:13   Like it has no way to resolve anything.

01:20:15   100x zoom is not making any sense out of the moon.

01:20:17   But I know that it's a moon, and so I will take the one copy that I have of the moon

01:20:21   and apply it using AI technology to your image.

01:20:25   The reason this is not going to become the accepted norm and wipe out "old style" photos

01:20:31   is the same reason this photocopier is never going to be acceptable.

01:20:35   By the way, Xerox fixed the bug.

01:20:38   When you take a photo or when you make a photocopy, very often you're doing it, you have a job

01:20:43   that you wanted to do.

01:20:44   In the case of the copier, you want it to make an exact duplicate of the paper that

01:20:48   you put on it.

01:20:49   You don't want it to change the measurements.

01:20:51   That's very bad, because your whole point is, "I want it to be an exact copy."

01:20:56   Sometimes when you take a picture of the moon, you just want a pretty picture of the moon,

01:20:59   and that's fine.

01:21:00   But sometimes when you take a picture of the thing, you want a picture of the thing that

01:21:04   is in front of you.

01:21:06   You don't care what some computer thinks that thing in front of you probably looks like

01:21:10   or has looked like in the past or will look like in the future or would look better as.

01:21:14   You want to know what that thing looks like now.

01:21:17   Sometimes not all the time, but sometimes that is the job of a photograph.

01:21:21   So I think there is no future in which we accept cameras routinely replacing things

01:21:29   that are in front of them with things that think they are.

01:21:32   Because sometimes that's not the job we want a camera to do.

01:21:36   And that's why I think, and you know, this thing with the moon who cares, it's not particularly

01:21:40   important, but like say you're taking a picture of a bunch of people and you're on vacation

01:21:43   and take a picture of your family,

01:21:44   and it knows that you've taken 1,000 pictures of your family

01:21:47   and it says, well, little Timmy's head is blurred,

01:21:49   so I'm gonna take Timmy's head from another photo

01:21:51   and AI map it onto there.

01:21:53   I don't think that will be acceptable to people in general,

01:21:56   because what they want is Timmy's actual expression

01:21:59   at this point, not an AI warped version

01:22:02   of composite of all Timmy's faces from past photos

01:22:05   mapped onto his face in this photo, right?

01:22:09   Or whatever the threshold is,

01:22:10   maybe the little Timmy people will want that,

01:22:12   But at a certain point, the job of a camera

01:22:14   and the job of a photo is to document

01:22:16   what is actually there.

01:22:17   And I'm setting this aside from like,

01:22:18   okay, but what about image enhancing

01:22:20   and sharpening and blurring and saturating colors?

01:22:24   Like there is a line between I'm taking

01:22:27   the information that's there

01:22:29   and trying to make it a little bit clearer

01:22:30   versus I'm basically doing an image map,

01:22:33   and not an image map, but you know,

01:22:34   like the AI avatar things we thought of before,

01:22:38   where it recognizes what it is and knows what you want

01:22:41   and takes all of its knowledge of that thing

01:22:43   and sort of, you know, I don't wanna say map,

01:22:46   'cause it's not like it's texture mapping.

01:22:47   It is doing AI image processing, it's doing stable diffusion,

01:22:50   all this, like it is, that's not what we want it to do

01:22:53   in most cases.

01:22:55   And so I'm not sure whether this technology

01:22:58   is appropriate for cell phones or whatever,

01:23:00   and by the way, on this Amazon phone,

01:23:01   you can turn this off and on,

01:23:03   so it's not like you're stuck with this,

01:23:04   but I feel like at least some of the time

01:23:09   the job we want a camera or a photograph to do

01:23:13   is to record what's there in the best way possible,

01:23:16   not to make up something.

01:23:18   And the photocopier is the most extreme example,

01:23:20   and ChatGPT is a similar type of thing where it's like,

01:23:22   well, I've seen stuff like this before,

01:23:24   and I know you actually want to know the answer,

01:23:26   but I've seen enough similar things

01:23:28   that are plausibly the answer that I'll just show you those.

01:23:30   And sometimes that's fun and interesting and useful,

01:23:33   as long as you understand what it's doing,

01:23:34   but sometimes you actually want to know the real answer,

01:23:36   and it's kind of super important.

01:23:37   So I wouldn't want NASA asking ChatGBT about how far away is the moon.

01:23:41   Because you probably get an answer, and it might be right, but really you need to delve

01:23:45   farther into that.

01:23:46   Similarly, I wouldn't want someone taking photos and, for example, submitting them as

01:23:51   evidence in a criminal trial when half the stuff in the image has been AI replaced by

01:23:56   some computer's idea of what it probably should have looked like.

01:23:59   It's a complicated topic because we are so accustomed to cameras capturing what we're

01:24:07   pretty sure they should be capturing based on what they are seeing.

01:24:11   When Apple does its deep fusion process, which is literally AI detail generation for pictures

01:24:18   that they've been doing for years, it's this exact same kind of thing, just done in

01:24:24   a little bit more subtle ways with a little bit more finesse.

01:24:27   It's the same technique, roughly.

01:24:29   It's like they see like, oh, this looks kind of like a hair.

01:24:33   I'm gonna sharpen it to make it look more

01:24:34   like a higher resolution hair or sweater fiber,

01:24:37   than what the sensor actually captured.

01:24:41   And that might be wrong.

01:24:43   - But they don't have like,

01:24:44   they didn't train it on a huge database

01:24:46   of a million pictures of hair and saying,

01:24:47   hey, when you see something that's a hair,

01:24:48   rather than trying to sharpen it,

01:24:50   because hairs, we applied this sharpening algorithm

01:24:52   to things that we think are hair,

01:24:53   instead, take all your knowledge

01:24:55   in this giant trained image set

01:24:57   of all pictures of hair you've seen,

01:24:59   and just synthesize a picture of hair

01:25:01   that is more or less the same shape as that picture.

01:25:03   In the same way that you can take like,

01:25:05   steal artwork from somebody where they draw you

01:25:07   as a superhero and synthesize Marco's face

01:25:09   plus this superhero drawing that somebody did

01:25:11   and end up with a superhero drawing of Marco.

01:25:13   I think nothing has Apple has done at that point,

01:25:16   up to this point has been trained on other images

01:25:19   and uses that to synthesize.

01:25:21   Instead it's maybe perhaps been trained on other images

01:25:23   to recognize this is hair, this is not hair,

01:25:25   but hasn't gone the extra step or like this is sweater,

01:25:27   this is not sweater, hasn't gone the extra step to say,

01:25:30   okay, in addition to that, take your giant database

01:25:33   of knowledge of what sweaters look like

01:25:35   and synthesize an image of a purple sweater

01:25:36   that matches this purple and more or less

01:25:38   looks like a sweater.

01:25:39   And that's where I feel like the line is drawn,

01:25:40   where it is creating based on other images

01:25:43   versus just taking what you have there,

01:25:45   recognizing it and then applying,

01:25:46   essentially, image processing algorithms

01:25:48   to sharpen, blur, enhance, saturate, so on.

01:25:51   - I believe that's correct, that their approaches

01:25:54   have not seemingly been like synthesis driven

01:25:57   from a trained, you know, large model kind of thing.

01:25:59   I think it has been more just like, you know,

01:26:01   smarter versions of, you know, sharpening

01:26:04   and stuff like that, and interpolation.

01:26:06   I'm pretty sure that's right,

01:26:08   but that's honestly a very fine line

01:26:12   that I think the whole industry is gonna just

01:26:14   waltz right over over the next few years,

01:26:17   and none of us are gonna notice or care.

01:26:19   It's just gonna become the new normal.

01:26:20   I mean, people expect the cameras they take

01:26:24   with their phones to just look good and look right,

01:26:27   and people reward that by buying those phones

01:26:29   that have those cameras and using those apps

01:26:31   that generate those effects.

01:26:32   And the technology in general of like AI synthesized

01:26:37   photo processing is already out there in mainstream apps.

01:26:43   Like there's all this stuff going on on TikTok

01:26:45   with like all these filters that work on live video

01:26:48   and people are like making themselves look like

01:26:50   the teenage version of themselves or movie stars

01:26:52   or like super high glam versions of themselves.

01:26:55   They all fail comically on me, by the way.

01:26:57   (laughs)

01:26:58   But like, there's this, and these are all these algorithms

01:27:01   that make people look good.

01:27:03   And this, you know, people have been doing this

01:27:04   on Instagram and Snapchat for years,

01:27:06   of you know, things that kind of like,

01:27:08   you know, basically make it look like

01:27:09   you're wearing a lot of stage makeup.

01:27:11   Like, you know, they kind of like fog your face out

01:27:13   and, you know, smooth over any blemishes

01:27:15   and make you look like a movie star all the time.

01:27:18   And God forbid you ever have a pimple on your face,

01:27:20   we're gonna hide that right over, you know.

01:27:23   There's all this stuff going on, that's all.

01:27:24   way more complex than Apple's Deep Fusion stuff.

01:27:29   It is using AI-powered decision-making

01:27:31   in a lot of those things.

01:27:33   It is synthesizing detail or changing things outright

01:27:36   that were not there in the picture,

01:27:38   and that's becoming commonplace.

01:27:40   It's super commonplace.

01:27:41   Tons of people experience photography that way now.

01:27:44   - Right, but that goes back to what is a photo, though?

01:27:49   Example is that's people doing it intentionally for fun.

01:27:52   That is a fun thing to do.

01:27:53   You know you're doing it.

01:27:53   it is a fun thing to do, right?

01:27:55   But the case where it becomes routine,

01:27:58   where you take a picture of your family on vacation,

01:28:00   and then you get back home and you realize

01:28:02   the photo misidentified one of your children,

01:28:04   thought it was Kid A instead of Kid B,

01:28:06   and synthesized Kid A's face on top of them,

01:28:09   and you basically now have a ruined photo, right?

01:28:12   That's the type of thing where the first time

01:28:14   that happened to someone, people are going to hunt down

01:28:16   that setting and say, don't do that anymore.

01:28:18   I don't care how, if that person's photo was too dim

01:28:21   and it wasn't sharp enough,

01:28:23   I don't want you putting the other kid's face in that.

01:28:25   I know my kids look similar, lots of kids look similar,

01:28:27   we're all potentially genetically related to each other,

01:28:30   and so I can see how you can make that mistake,

01:28:33   kind of like how Apple's face recognition makes a mistake,

01:28:36   but once people realize that it is synthesizing a face

01:28:40   on top of a face, you do that intentionally

01:28:42   to make yourself look glamorous with makeup, fun.

01:28:44   Someone does that to your family photo

01:28:45   and it puts the wrong kid on top of a thing,

01:28:47   not fun, not acceptable,

01:28:49   and that will never be acceptable, right?

01:28:51   It will never be acceptable to any error rate

01:28:53   in accidentally, even, forget about putting the wrong kid,

01:28:57   if it made your face look like one of those makeup filters

01:29:00   or whatever.

01:29:02   I don't even think that's acceptable as a standard thing.

01:29:05   You always have to have the ability to capture

01:29:07   what is there without synthesis.

01:29:09   And I don't think that's gonna be,

01:29:10   might even not even be the majority case,

01:29:12   but you will never eliminate that case.

01:29:14   My argument is that this kind of technology

01:29:17   will never wipe out the need to record

01:29:20   what is actually in front of the photo,

01:29:22   and the camera's lens in the best way possible,

01:29:25   because sometimes that is the job of a camera.

01:29:28   Sometimes it's the job of a camera to look good,

01:29:30   or be fun, or whatever, but other times it is,

01:29:33   traffic cameras, for example, that take pictures.

01:29:35   It is not the job of the traffic camera

01:29:37   to synthesize license plates, right?

01:29:39   It's just not the job, right?

01:29:42   And it's not acceptable for that to be the job.

01:29:44   You can use AI to enhance the image or whatever,

01:29:46   but if it says, oh, we've feted a library

01:29:48   of all the license plates, and we'll find the license plates

01:29:49   it looks the most like and replace it.

01:29:51   And then when you use that in court to say,

01:29:52   like that is an example of like,

01:29:54   that is not the job we want this, you know,

01:29:55   if you can't get the good picture, get a better camera.

01:29:58   But I don't want you guessing it what that license plate was

01:30:00   and replacing it like the Xerox copier did

01:30:03   with a very crisp picture of a license plate

01:30:05   that is actually somebody else's.

01:30:06   - Oh man, I just had the terrifying thought

01:30:08   of what's gonna happen when police officers realize

01:30:11   they can change their body cam footage.

01:30:13   That's awful.

01:30:15   But anyway, I think you're right that like,

01:30:17   there will always be a role for basically un-processing

01:30:21   or less processing cameras that are not

01:30:23   trying to be too smart.

01:30:24   - It's not less processing, it's where that line is.

01:30:27   The line between enhancing what is in front of the camera

01:30:29   and the line of synthesizing based on your knowledge

01:30:31   of like millions of photos.

01:30:33   Like that is, I feel like, I don't know how to define

01:30:35   that line in terms of vocabulary because we're too new

01:30:38   in that thing, but there is a line.

01:30:40   I know it's fuzzy and difficult to define,

01:30:41   but it does exist and that I feel like is what we're all

01:30:44   going to work out as a society of like,

01:30:46   What do we call that line?

01:30:47   Where is it?

01:30:48   Maybe legally that line will be worked out.

01:30:50   But that division does exist.

01:30:52   It is not just a giant smear that we just

01:30:54   have to accept that this is just going

01:30:55   to be the way all photos are.

01:30:56   It's not going to be.

01:30:57   And so we do have to find out where that dividing line is.

01:31:00   Well, no one is going to ask us.

01:31:01   See, we're not going to be asked where we want to draw this line.

01:31:06   We're not going to be asked, should this line exist

01:31:08   and where should it be drawn?

01:31:10   Here's what's going to happen.

01:31:11   We're going to keep going on the path we're going.

01:31:14   And already, I think we're already here now,

01:31:16   but say in a few years, we're gonna look back and realize,

01:31:20   for most people, they're gonna look back and realize

01:31:22   the vast majority to the entirety of all pictures they have

01:31:26   from the last X years have been processed in this way.

01:31:30   And it might be subtle things.

01:31:31   They might look back and say like,

01:31:33   "Hey, you know this picture of my kid,

01:31:36   "maybe in the actual picture, the kid had like one eye

01:31:39   "like half blinking, so like one eye was like half closed,

01:31:42   and maybe the AI camera that they were using at that time

01:31:45   was smart enough to like open it up

01:31:48   and make it match the other eye.

01:31:49   But maybe that kid has like,

01:31:50   maybe that kid's eyes,

01:31:51   two eyes look different from each other

01:31:53   in some way normally,

01:31:54   and the parent might not notice immediately,

01:31:56   but then you might be looking back at the picture

01:31:59   and be like, wait a minute,

01:32:00   little Johnny's green eye is supposed to be green there

01:32:03   and it's blue, 'cause his other eye is blue.

01:32:05   That's weird, like the camera made something up

01:32:07   that wasn't there, but we're gonna be at a point

01:32:10   where we will be looking back and realize,

01:32:12   oh, actually, all of the photos we have now,

01:32:16   all the photos we've been taking,

01:32:17   all the photos we are taking now,

01:32:19   have all had synthesized detail added to them

01:32:21   that wasn't really there,

01:32:22   and that decision has already been made for us

01:32:25   by the market or by our own usage,

01:32:28   and not even realizing that we were really doing it,

01:32:30   necessarily.

01:32:30   It's like baking in a filter to all your pictures

01:32:33   during the Instagram era.

01:32:34   You look back from pictures you have,

01:32:35   say, in the fall of 2010,

01:32:37   and they all have like weird color and low resolution.

01:32:41   It's like, oh, that's because we were all playing

01:32:43   with Instagram and that's just what we have then.

01:32:45   But this is what people are doing.

01:32:47   This is the apps people are using.

01:32:48   These are the filters people are choosing to use.

01:32:50   This is the camera modes people are choosing to use.

01:32:52   These are the actual cameras on our phones

01:32:53   that we are all using.

01:32:54   Like, it's funny, I recently,

01:32:56   I had a chance to play with a modern little point and shoot

01:33:00   'cause Gruber got one and then TIFF wanted us.

01:33:03   We were looking at them, we were playing with it,

01:33:05   and got a chance to shoot some pictures

01:33:06   with a modern, nice standalone camera.

01:33:10   And the pictures looked incredible.

01:33:13   Like, turns out standalone cameras

01:33:15   have gotten really good recently.

01:33:16   And I look back at my iPhone pictures

01:33:18   and they all look a little bit artificial

01:33:21   compared to the same,

01:33:23   I would shoot a picture with my iPhone

01:33:25   and I'd take this cool little real camera

01:33:28   and shoot with it.

01:33:29   And the iPhone pictures were more easily taken

01:33:33   in low light and stuff like that.

01:33:35   But the real camera pictures looked better

01:33:39   and they weren't necessarily massively higher resolution,

01:33:43   they just didn't look over-processed.

01:33:45   iPhone pictures, when you see them compared

01:33:49   to regular camera pictures, they look really over-processed,

01:33:52   over-sharpened, over-blurred to get rid of noise.

01:33:56   They look a certain way.

01:33:58   It's interesting now, I'm looking back at all my pictures

01:34:00   and for the last few years, the vast majority

01:34:02   of my pictures are iPhone pictures.

01:34:05   And I kinda regret that I don't have more real camera shots.

01:34:10   At the same time, I don't want a real camera

01:34:13   because I will literally never bring it around.

01:34:16   'Cause one thing I realized, so I ended up getting one

01:34:18   for Tiff for an occasion, 'cause she really wanted it,

01:34:21   and she's taken it a couple times.

01:34:23   But I thought like, maybe I'll take this out sometime,

01:34:25   like maybe take it out for a walk,

01:34:26   or take it out when hanging out with friends.

01:34:29   And because I haven't used a real camera regularly

01:34:32   in so long, I didn't feel, I felt weird

01:34:37   taking it out of the house.

01:34:39   'Cause now, if you see somebody taking a picture

01:34:43   with a regular camera now, it's almost like

01:34:45   they're taking out one of those big old Polaroid cameras,

01:34:47   just ch-chunk, it looks so ridiculous to see somebody today

01:34:52   taking out a big camera. - Oh, I don't think

01:34:53   that's true, yeah. - It does!

01:34:54   - I disagree. - 'Cause everyone's

01:34:55   just uses phones now!

01:34:56   How many people do you know who use a regular camera anymore?

01:34:59   So it actually, I felt self-conscious

01:35:02   even taking it outside, it felt so weird.

01:35:05   'Cause the world we're in now

01:35:06   is we're all just using our phones.

01:35:07   So my point is, even though our phones take worse

01:35:09   and less accurate pictures a lot of the time,

01:35:12   I feel like that's just the world we're in now.

01:35:14   So that's what everyone's doing.

01:35:18   Even if people have access to regular cameras,

01:35:19   they usually won't use them,

01:35:20   and most people don't have access at all anymore.

01:35:22   So I think this is the world we're in no matter what,

01:35:26   and the world we're in synthesizes a lot of data

01:35:29   that wasn't there or a lot of--

01:35:30   - But it's not, it's just taking,

01:35:32   it's just doing exposure bracketing, it's combining,

01:35:34   and it's like, you know, it's not synthesized.

01:35:36   This is the line we're talking about.

01:35:36   - That's what it starts with.

01:35:38   - Right, well, the cameras we have,

01:35:39   the cameras we have, not to do that.

01:35:40   I don't think there's gonna be a scenario,

01:35:42   I'm not as pessimistic as you are where suddenly

01:35:43   we're gonna realize that all our children's faces

01:35:46   were replaced 20 years later.

01:35:47   Like, we're already talking about this

01:35:48   and it's just the moon, right?

01:35:49   I think it will be a thing that people are aware of.

01:35:51   What they choose to do and what they choose to turn on

01:35:53   to turn off is going to be a market decision, but I don't think it's going to happen unaware.

01:35:59   And what you're mostly talking about is tiny little camera sensors that have such terrible,

01:36:02   raw output that we have to do this to them to make them look reasonable, which is why

01:36:06   all phone pictures look like they're kind of impressionist paintings if you zoom in

01:36:09   on them, if you quote-unquote "pixel peep" on them.

01:36:11   And yeah, real cameras are better because they have much bigger sensors, right?

01:36:14   There's just no getting around that.

01:36:16   Technology hasn't advanced to the point where we can do that.

01:36:17   So we're doing the best we can with these tiny sensors because, like you said, people

01:36:21   mostly just want to take pictures with their phone,

01:36:23   but our phones, with the exception of the Samsung thing

01:36:25   on the moon, have not crossed that line

01:36:28   that I was trying to define before,

01:36:29   which is do what you can with this camera output

01:36:33   to try to make it look reasonable,

01:36:34   versus you've seen a bunch of images of people before,

01:36:37   including a bunch of images of what you think

01:36:39   are these people, whatever that came out of the camera,

01:36:42   combine that with your knowledge of what this person

01:36:44   actually looks like to replace their face

01:36:46   to make it look better, and that is the line,

01:36:48   the line where you're not even,

01:36:50   you're mostly taking the input to as a recognizer,

01:36:53   like what you wanna know is this the moon

01:36:54   or is it not the moon?

01:36:55   Is this Timmy or is it not Timmy?

01:36:56   Is this a shirt or is it not a shirt?

01:36:58   That's what you're using the sensor data for

01:36:59   and then you're saying, okay,

01:37:01   given that we know that's Timmy and that's a shirt,

01:37:03   use all your knowledge in your AI model of Timmy and shirts

01:37:07   to put a good looking Timmy and a good looking shirt there.

01:37:09   And that, whatever that line is,

01:37:12   that is the line that once we pass over that,

01:37:15   that there's going to be a split between cameras

01:37:19   for the purpose of, you know, if people like that,

01:37:21   and that's the default on all cameras, fine.

01:37:24   But there's going to be another thing

01:37:25   on the other side of that, which is, okay,

01:37:27   but sometimes that's not the job of a camera.

01:37:29   And when it's not the job, we need to,

01:37:30   A, know that's happening, and B, not use that feature.

01:37:33   And that's the traffic cameras, or for some people,

01:37:36   the cameras of their family.

01:37:37   Like, consumers will, I feel like consumers

01:37:39   will be able to make an informed choice about this,

01:37:42   because, like, to your point, people know about this stuff.

01:37:44   The TikTok filters that change your face or whatever,

01:37:46   everybody knows about that.

01:37:47   They know it exists, they know it's fun,

01:37:49   they know how to use it.

01:37:50   When it comes to all of our phones

01:37:53   in a way that's more mass market

01:37:55   than taking pictures of the moon

01:37:56   on this particular camera with 100x zoom,

01:37:58   people will know about it,

01:37:59   and then people will make their own personal decision.

01:38:01   My main argument here is this will not sweep across

01:38:04   all photography forever,

01:38:06   because there's always going to be the job of a camera

01:38:09   to record what's in front of it,

01:38:10   and that job will not go away,

01:38:11   it will just become more marginalized, right?

01:38:13   And how marginalized?

01:38:14   How many people will want this enhancement versus not?

01:38:17   We don't know that yet.

01:38:17   probably gonna be the generation after us that decides

01:38:19   or whatever, and there may even be like a fad

01:38:21   where everybody has it enabled in their cameras,

01:38:23   kind of like Instagram filter, and they know it's enabled.

01:38:25   Like people didn't not understand it was enabled,

01:38:28   and then they regret it later, because like,

01:38:29   oh, I shouldn't have taken all those pictures

01:38:30   with the Gotham filter, I thought it was real cool,

01:38:33   but now it's just blurry and I can't see anything, right?

01:38:36   That may happen, because fads happen or whatever,

01:38:38   but in the meantime, the traffic cameras simply cannot,

01:38:42   they can't do this, like, and there's probably gonna be

01:38:45   some court case over it to decide it,

01:38:47   we're into legal things, or someone's gonna say,

01:38:49   I have this photo and it shows you stealing this package

01:38:52   from my porch, and we're like, that's not me,

01:38:54   and it's like, this is your face,

01:38:55   and it's like, well, your camera was trained on my face

01:38:56   'cause I'm your ex-boyfriend, and you can see

01:38:58   how these things can roll out, right?

01:39:02   But I think, I mean, again, I think the fact

01:39:04   that we're seeing this story and this same story

01:39:06   has come up years and years in the past,

01:39:08   and it's just about the stupid moon, because who cares,

01:39:10   means we will be on top of this,

01:39:13   and I don't know how it's going to turn out

01:39:15   in terms of how many people want this feature

01:39:17   on their camera or even who puts it in.

01:39:19   Because I feel like this is the type of feature

01:39:20   that Apple would be hesitant to put in

01:39:22   where Samsung will be like, oh no,

01:39:24   we'll totally replace your family's face.

01:39:25   We'll replace your family's face with Brad Pitt

01:39:27   and Angelina Jolie in their prime.

01:39:28   Yeah, no, we'll make you look great.

01:39:30   And some people will want that.

01:39:32   But that's a consumer choice, not an inevitability,

01:39:36   like in a dystopian inevitability,

01:39:38   which is like no real cameras will ever exist again

01:39:40   in the end.

01:39:42   - Thanks to our sponsors this week, Collide,

01:39:44   and our members.

01:39:46   You can join atp.fm/join and become a member right now

01:39:50   to help support the show.

01:39:51   Thank you so much, and we'll talk to you next week.

01:39:55   (upbeat music)

01:39:57   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:39:59   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:40:02   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:40:04   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:05   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:40:06   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:08   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:40:10   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:40:13   'Cause it was accidental, it was accidental

01:40:18   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:40:23   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:40:28   @caseyliss

01:40:32   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:40:37   ♪ Anti-Marco, Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:40:42   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

01:40:46   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:40:47   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:40:50   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:51   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:52   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:40:54   ♪ So long ♪

01:40:56   - I have an illness and it's not COVID this time.

01:41:01   - This time.

01:41:04   - I-- - You've got a fever.

01:41:06   - I know.

01:41:06   - And the only prescription.

01:41:08   - Is more cowbell.

01:41:08   - I get that one.

01:41:09   - There's more watch bands.

01:41:11   - The only prescription is more watch bands, yeah.

01:41:13   So I, when I bought the Series 8

01:41:16   or whatever the most current Apple Watch is,

01:41:18   I've already lost track.

01:41:19   - 8 or Ultra.

01:41:20   - I ordered 8, sorry, not the Ultra.

01:41:23   I am way too thin-wristed for an Ultra.

01:41:26   I wish I wasn't, but my wrists are way too tiny.

01:41:28   - So am I, I wear it sometimes anyway.

01:41:31   I feel like I've actually, I've made it my workout watch.

01:41:34   And living with two watches at the same time

01:41:37   generally sucks.

01:41:38   There's a bunch of things that are annoying about it.

01:41:39   But it's great for workouts because I flip it around

01:41:44   so that the crown and the button are on the inside

01:41:47   of my arm instead of facing the outside.

01:41:49   So if I have a weightlifting glove and it hits the button,

01:41:53   it doesn't activate Siri,

01:41:54   and I totally turned off the action button

01:41:56   because that's now facing the outside.

01:41:58   And with those two changes,

01:42:00   it's wonderful as a workout watch.

01:42:03   but I don't want to wear that all the time

01:42:04   'cause it's way too big for me still.

01:42:07   So I'm flipping between that and my Series 7,

01:42:09   but anyway, sorry, go on.

01:42:11   - No, no, no, not at all.

01:42:12   I wish I had the self-confidence to just not care,

01:42:16   you know, and just wear,

01:42:17   well, I mean, I don't have an ultra,

01:42:18   but just to wear one anyway.

01:42:20   But I don't have that self-confidence, so here we are.

01:42:22   Anyway, when I ordered the Series 8, I received with it,

01:42:25   I don't remember the official color,

01:42:26   but what I will call a blue, a Solo Loop.

01:42:29   The Solo Loop is the silicone rubber,

01:42:32   So similar but not exactly the same as the sport band that is the de facto default watch band

01:42:38   It's a stretchy, you know silicone rubber and it is just a single piece of material. There are no clasps. No

01:42:46   Joints nothing. It's just a piece of rubber

01:42:49   That's that that you plug in on either side of the watch and that's that to put it to take the watch off or to

01:42:55   Put it on you just stretch the rubber out. It is designed to do that

01:42:58   The problem I have is it's designed to do that for somewhere around six months

01:43:02   and every time I've had like two or three of these, every damn time it snaps in two.

01:43:07   I should like send this thing, I don't know Dr. Drang's real name much less his

01:43:11   actual address, but I should send this damn thing to Dr. Drang so we can do a

01:43:14   full analysis on the failure of this thing. But suffice it to say I think I

01:43:17   just stretched it either too much or too far or whatever, but about a week or

01:43:20   maybe two weeks ago I noticed, oh no, oh no, there's a little cut. That's the end.

01:43:27   And that's the end and so I tried to like

01:43:29   to very gingerly like pinch right on either side of the set of the small cuts

01:43:36   So I'm not putting excess pressure on the cut itself

01:43:38   You know

01:43:38   I'm like trying to brace it and it just it took only a week or two to give up the ghost and so I

01:43:43   Am back to slumming it like an animal with my sport band

01:43:48   Which I actually I like this one too as much as I joke, but I like this. I like the solo loops more

01:43:53   I just wish they lasted so

01:43:55   Apple can you please make that make me not break this maybe the problem is is that my wrist to hand ratio is not good

01:44:03   And so I have to stretch it too far to get it over my hands

01:44:05   But it needs to be tiny to be on my little teeny tiny wrists

01:44:08   But I just want one that doesn't break please and of course I went to the Apple Store

01:44:11   I went to the Apple Store and I was like look that this is out of warranty like

01:44:16   Is this the sort of thing that you guys would replace in two different occasions on two different with two different copies of this band?

01:44:22   They were like hey, no, and I said okay. Thanks, and I walked out didn't argue not a bit, but I

01:44:27   Just want I just want this thing to last and it doesn't it makes me sad

01:44:31   You got to learn how to do that thing you see people do when they're escaping handcuffs on like a TV show or a movie

01:44:36   Yeah, your hand really really small to get there. You got to figure out how to do that

01:44:40   You need like better hand flexibility to make it really small

01:44:43   So then you're stretching out less and maybe maybe grease up your hand first

01:44:46   Yeah, that's also true

01:44:47   Actually if it's wet or you know if I've put on my beloved set of phyllis we talked about a couple months ago

01:44:51   It does make it easier and I guess if I was more religious about that it would have been okay

01:44:56   Well, I do wonder if the lotion might be like corroding the band, you know, like this

01:45:00   Greet yourself up to get it

01:45:02   But I'm saying like if you get that stuff in the band

01:45:05   I don't know what the band is made out of but maybe that reacts poorly with it

01:45:08   It makes it like brittle over time or something. I mean, maybe I don't know

01:45:11   It's just it's tough because I love the band so much. There's no seams. There's nothing it's just a

01:45:17   silicon and you know that I mean I know this is not I mean Apple watch bands are

01:45:21   expensive and everything but like practically speaking unless your watch

01:45:25   band is made of metal it is basically a wear item for watches yeah I mean even

01:45:29   if it's just that they get real smelly over time like if you have like a

01:45:32   leather band or something the expectation that it will last forever

01:45:35   is not great six months is too short to be clear but like 20 years is probably

01:45:39   too long for a leather band that you wear every day I don't know I mean I

01:45:42   understand what you're saying but all of the the sport bands that I've had I

01:45:47   I don't think I've ever thrown any of them, well that's not true, half of them I had to

01:45:51   give up because I went from the big watch to the little watch because of my aforementioned

01:45:55   teeny tiny wrists.

01:45:57   But I mean, I still have them, they're still functional, they don't smell bad or anything.

01:46:02   I mean, the plastic-y stuff they use is certainly more durable than like a thin leather band

01:46:09   or at least absorb smell less, let's say.

01:46:12   But you know, these shouldn't have snapped after six months, that's clear, especially

01:46:16   how much they cost and I'm just wondering what the problem is. Right it's like 50 bucks and I mean I

01:46:21   would I could go and get another one although I don't really love the particular colors that are

01:46:27   available as it looks there is Sprout Green which I like the name but you know there's a really nice

01:46:33   yellow there's Sprout Green which I really like the name you know I have to have the yellow thing

01:46:40   because I saw something what was it some other celebration of yellow and something it was oh it

01:46:44   Oh, it was like Gus Mueller posted like a pizza grill that was yellow.

01:46:48   And I was like, I was thinking of Casey, but I said, you know what?

01:46:50   Casey just said he doesn't like yellow cars.

01:46:52   Not that he just likes yellow everything.

01:46:53   He likes yellow lemons.

01:46:55   Like, it's not like he's against yellow in all forms.

01:46:57   He just doesn't like yellow cars.

01:46:59   So I just want to make that clear, because I feel like it's unfair

01:47:01   to think that Casey is going to hate all yellow everything.

01:47:03   Well, of course.

01:47:04   I mean, I actually I don't mind the canary yellow solo loop.

01:47:08   But now, you know, I have to go for the gag.

01:47:09   You know, that's why I'm here is to lean into the gag.

01:47:12   And so all kidding aside, I don't mind yellow.

01:47:15   I think yellow cars are awful in almost every circumstance,

01:47:18   but yellow in general, like you said, no problem.

01:47:20   But anyway, so there's a Sprout Green, great name.

01:47:23   Green is a little loud for my taste.

01:47:25   Canary Yellow, Olive Solo, which is fine.

01:47:28   Purple Fog, which actually isn't bad.

01:47:31   Let's see, Starlight Solo, which is like a creamy,

01:47:34   and Storm Blue, which looks to me to be gray,

01:47:36   at least on the screen here.

01:47:38   I don't want any of those colors.

01:47:39   So this solves the problem for me

01:47:41   because even if I was willing to plunk down $50 twice a year, or thereabouts, to get a

01:47:46   new solo loop, which I think about, I don't particularly care for any of these colors.

01:47:51   So I'm just going to stick with my blue sport band and call it a day.

01:47:55   But I just love these things so much.

01:47:56   I wish they lasted longer.

01:47:57   Maybe I should try the solo loop and give that a shot.

01:48:02   They're a hundred bucks!

01:48:03   If these things are going to break after six months, why don't you try a third-party knockoff?

01:48:07   Oh, they're bad.

01:48:09   Are they real bad?

01:48:10   - But maybe it'll last more than six months,

01:48:12   or if it only lasts six months,

01:48:13   then at least you can spend as much.

01:48:14   - Or if it's only 10 bucks, right?

01:48:15   Yeah, if it's like 10 bucks every six months, who cares?

01:48:17   - Yeah, I've had a couple of Amazon brand,

01:48:21   Amazon no-name brand Apple sport bands,

01:48:24   and they're noticeably lower quality in every possible way.

01:48:29   And you gotta figure too,

01:48:30   what kind of rando chemical

01:48:34   you're putting against your skin all day long.

01:48:36   You might wanna get that from somebody

01:48:40   who has a brand name that isn't a string

01:48:42   of random characters, you know, just in case.

01:48:46   But yeah, the reality is the regular sport bands

01:48:51   with the pin buckle last a very long time.

01:48:54   - Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

01:48:55   They last frickin' forever.

01:48:56   - They last, yeah, they're basically invincible.

01:48:59   They eventually will get discolored

01:49:00   if it's the lighter colored one, but it's--

01:49:02   - Yes, that is very true.

01:49:04   - But that's just what happens.

01:49:05   If you're gonna wear something white around your wrist,

01:49:08   I know it from experience, every single day,

01:49:10   like it is gonna get dirty at some point

01:49:12   to the point where it's very hard to clean.

01:49:15   And eventually you will have permanent staining on it

01:49:18   from your jeans or whatever.

01:49:20   That's just what happens.

01:49:20   But that's watch bands, as Jon was saying.

01:49:24   Watch bands are basically a wear item.

01:49:28   The rubber ones do last a lot longer

01:49:30   than things like cloth or leather.

01:49:32   Even metal bands, like bracelets, they wear over time

01:49:37   but in ways people don't usually care about.

01:49:39   Like, usually on watch bracelets,

01:49:41   they'll become a little bit looser,

01:49:42   like the links won't be exactly as next to each other,

01:49:46   like they'll start getting like gaps between the links.

01:49:49   If you hold the bracelet out, it'll flex a little bit,

01:49:51   like it'll sink down, like it'll curve downward.

01:49:53   That kind of thing happens with metal,

01:49:54   'cause there's a bunch of moving parts

01:49:55   and pins and everything.

01:49:57   But any metal band you get for an Apple Watch

01:49:59   is going to outlast the Apple Watch

01:50:01   that you are attaching it to.

01:50:03   But that's not true for leather at all.

01:50:05   Leather lasts usually a year or two,

01:50:07   depends on how sweaty you get

01:50:08   and how much you tolerate it being stinky.

01:50:10   (laughing)

01:50:12   But yeah, leather is moisture dependent.

01:50:14   Cloth also, cloth will get moisture.

01:50:20   When you're looking at the woven loop,

01:50:21   that you set up at $100,

01:50:23   those things are extremely comfortable.

01:50:25   They are very, very nice.

01:50:27   The lighter colored ones are hard to clean.

01:50:29   You can clean them, but they're hard to clean.

01:50:32   and they do hold moisture to an uncomfortable degree for me.

01:50:37   - Oh, that's no good.

01:50:39   - You definitely don't wanna be exercising in them

01:50:42   because it'll be moist for hours afterwards,

01:50:45   like just being held against your wrist, that's no good.

01:50:48   So for general all around waterproof use,

01:50:53   it's either metal or rubber.

01:50:54   Like those are your best choices for a watch band.

01:50:57   Rubber is obviously a little more comfortable,

01:50:59   usually cheaper than metal.

01:51:02   Metal is a little bit nicer looking,

01:51:04   more expensive, more rigid, and longer lasting.

01:51:08   But those are your options.

01:51:09   Whether it's worth 50 bucks every six months

01:51:11   for you not to have the buckle, that's up to you.

01:51:15   - Yeah, yeah, and I just don't think it is.

01:51:17   And I'm not an every year watch person,

01:51:20   but I would say, you know, I'll just get the solo loop

01:51:22   every time I get a new watch,

01:51:23   and that would at least give me one a year,

01:51:25   but I'm on like a two to three year cycle on watches,

01:51:27   so that's not really gonna fix my problem anyway.

01:51:29   I don't know, if you're listening and you found a knockoff

01:51:32   that is less than $50 that you think is pretty good

01:51:35   and doesn't make your skin burn off

01:51:37   or anything to Marco's point, send me a toot at me,

01:51:40   which is a phrase I didn't think I'd ever say,

01:51:43   mastodon and let me know.

01:51:45   Don't send me an email, please, I get too much email.

01:51:46   But send me a toot.

01:51:48   Just send your flatulence my way

01:51:51   and let me know what you prefer.

01:51:52   - To me, the answer is just get the sport band

01:51:56   with the pin buckle and be done with it.

01:51:58   - That's what I'm doing, like I said.

01:51:59   I mean, I've got several of them at this point,

01:52:00   so that's what I'm doing.

01:52:01   And it's not that I mind it,

01:52:03   I just, I really love the no buckle or no clasp

01:52:07   or whatever the term I'm looking for is, that version.

01:52:10   I love that so much.

01:52:11   And I was looking at the braided solo loop,

01:52:14   which is what you suggested,

01:52:15   and leaving aside the water retention issues,

01:52:18   which for me would be a very big issue,

01:52:20   I just, again, I'm not in love with any of these colors.

01:52:24   I'm sure they'll change in a couple of months

01:52:26   or three or four months, whatever,

01:52:27   but I don't love any of these colors either,

01:52:29   so no matter what, I don't think I'm buying anything

01:52:31   anytime soon, except maybe actually

01:52:32   I would rock the Pride one for sure.

01:52:35   But other than that, I don't really like any of them.

01:52:37   - The Pride one's nice, actually.

01:52:38   That's the one I have of that type, the rainbow one.

01:52:41   It's really nice.

01:52:42   Got tons of compliments on that when I was wearing that.

01:52:45   But they do get dirty real fast,

01:52:47   'cause they had, part of the,

01:52:49   let me pull up the page, but yeah,

01:52:50   part of the design is some white or beige threads,

01:52:55   and those get dirty very quickly.

01:52:58   - Yeah, 'cause I have the Nike Pride,

01:53:01   Pride Edition Nike Sport Loop I have.

01:53:04   Maybe I should bust that back out,

01:53:06   'cause I haven't worn that in a little while.

01:53:07   And that one's pretty good.

01:53:08   It's not amazing, but it's pretty good.

01:53:10   And that has nothing to do with the Pride thing.

01:53:11   It's just I don't love that particular band material,

01:53:14   but it's fine.

01:53:16   - Yeah, if you're gonna get a Pride band,

01:53:17   I think the braided solo loop is the one to get.

01:53:19   But yeah, you gotta run some dish soap

01:53:22   and scrub off the light colored threads.

01:53:25   like every few weeks. It gets pretty dingy pretty quickly. But when it's clean, it

01:53:30   looks amazing.

01:53:31   Yeah, so somebody linked in the chat, and I know that the three of us have very mixed

01:53:34   feelings about wire cutter these days, but there is a very, very comprehensive wire cutter

01:53:41   post with all various flavors of watch band that they seem to like. So I'll take a look

01:53:46   through this when I'm not trying to talk to you two.

01:53:49   I would also, I would caution you on sizing in particular.

01:53:53   Well, there's a couple of things that the third party

01:53:56   watch band world usually falls over on.

01:53:58   One is material quality.

01:54:00   You know, you don't realize how nice Apple's materials are

01:54:04   until you try other people's and you're like,

01:54:05   "Oh, this is kinda crappy."

01:54:07   - Yeah, I've done that a couple of times.

01:54:09   I did, I think, a knockoff Milanese, which wasn't bad,

01:54:12   but then I tried the official Apple one like months later.

01:54:15   Oh, oh, that's why.

01:54:17   It's so much money.

01:54:18   - Yeah, it makes much more sense now.

01:54:20   There was a couple other materials,

01:54:21   I forget one off the top of my head,

01:54:22   but a similar thing where it was like,

01:54:24   oh, that's why the Apple One is so much money, I get it.

01:54:28   - Yeah, so there's that.

01:54:30   There's also typically the lug attachment area,

01:54:34   like how it attaches to the Apple Watch.

01:54:37   I've had issues with third-party bands with poor quality,

01:54:40   like those, like the three little line segments

01:54:43   that latch it in.

01:54:44   - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Sometimes those

01:54:45   don't work well, they're like slightly misaligned

01:54:49   or slightly the wrong size,

01:54:50   so they don't quite latch in right

01:54:51   and it kinda gets jammed or it won't go in.

01:54:53   I've had that issue with them.

01:54:55   Also, the ones that have metal attachments,

01:54:59   and then usually like any kind of third party leather band

01:55:02   will have like some kind of like little metal lug

01:55:05   that will go into the Apple Watch

01:55:06   and then the band comes off of that.

01:55:07   Those often are not great matches for the Apple Watch metal.

01:55:13   And so it's kinda, that's like a,

01:55:15   either the color's wrong or the finish isn't right

01:55:17   or the quality's different, so the metals don't match

01:55:20   and that always looks bad, in my opinion.

01:55:23   And then the biggest problem I've had is sizing.

01:55:28   That, you know, and you seem to think you have small wrists

01:55:32   and I think our wrists are pretty similar sizes.

01:55:34   - I actually, I think so, I think you're right.

01:55:36   - One of the great things about the Apple Watch Sport Band

01:55:39   is that it comes with a short version.

01:55:41   It used to come with both. - Yep, yep.

01:55:43   Now when you buy a sport band, you pick whether you want

01:55:45   the small, medium, or the medium-large set.

01:55:48   Used to come with both and you just have to throw away

01:55:49   whichever end you didn't use, which was terrible.

01:55:52   So I'm glad they changed that.

01:55:54   But anyway, so I used the small, medium pairing.

01:55:57   - Yep, same.

01:55:57   - And I had a third-party band from Nomad.

01:56:02   It only comes in one size.

01:56:04   Most third-party bands are one size fits all or whatever.

01:56:07   But it was so ridiculously long.

01:56:11   there was so much excess that I had to like tuck under,

01:56:14   it almost reached the other end of the watch.

01:56:16   There was so much excess.

01:56:18   Like it almost went all the way around,

01:56:19   almost like lapped my arm.

01:56:20   And I tried like cutting off the excess

01:56:24   and then it just looks and feels bad.

01:56:26   Like there's no good option.

01:56:28   So that's another thing like third party bands,

01:56:30   usually the fit is not as good if you have a smaller wrist

01:56:33   because they only make one size for everybody

01:56:37   and that ends up being very large

01:56:39   to accommodate as many people as possible on the large end,

01:56:42   but what that means if you have a smaller wrist

01:56:44   is you're gonna have a lot of excess

01:56:45   and it's gonna look bad

01:56:46   or not quite fit very well or whatever.

01:56:47   So there's a reason why Apple makes their watch bands

01:56:52   and charges 50 bucks or like they're pretty good

01:56:55   and in the watch world they're very good

01:56:58   compared to what everyone else is making,

01:57:00   both Apple Watch and otherwise.

01:57:02   And so they earn their price

01:57:04   and I don't feel bad paying 50 bucks for a sport band

01:57:08   every so often because they're just really good.

01:57:11   [beeping]

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