529: The Cycles of Marco
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There is a thunderstorm happening outdoors.
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John apparently lost power for several hours earlier today.
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So this is going to be a little bit more of a stressful ATP recording for us than it normally is.
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We'll see how it goes.
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I feel great. I just live on a barrier island.
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Yeah, I'm sure your house will still be there in 15 years.
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News, breaking news even.
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There is not another holiday to celebrate, unfortunately.
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I wish I could come up with one. I'm so sorry, John.
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But I have different good news.
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Don't worry. Give him time listeners. He will find more.
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Anniversaries you were celebrating the holidays.
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They're all holidays to me, John. But anyway, uh, we have some breaking news.
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It turns out that we ordered a, another shipment of mugs,
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I don't know, like a month or two back. It was a little while ago and in January,
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thank you. And we used the little tool that, that, uh,
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our friends at cotton Bureau put together to email those that have said, Hey,
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Email me when this comes back, please.
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And it turns out that, as expected,
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not everyone who requested that email
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has actually purchased a mug.
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So if you're looking for a mug,
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you can go to ATP.fm/store and get yourself a mug.
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And John, these are the red interiors, is that correct?
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- They're almost all red interiors.
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There's a handful of gray interiors left,
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if that's what you want.
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- There's also a smattering of pint glasses.
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There are not many.
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So for both of these,
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I would suggest acting sooner rather than later.
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but particularly for the pint glasses,
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there's very few of those remaining.
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So if you're interested, go snatch those up at ATP.FM.
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- Yeah, and this is not, to be clear,
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this is not our pre-WWC merch sale.
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We're still working on that.
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This is just some leftover stock
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that honestly we forgot that we even had.
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So it's been there.
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You could have come at any time
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between the last sale and now and gotten a mug,
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but occasionally we do get messages from people
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like, "Oh, I had a mug and I dropped it and it broke.
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"When are you gonna sell them again?"
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And we're like, "Oh, I don't know."
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Oh, anyway, they've been there the whole time.
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Sorry about that.
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So yeah, and same thing with pint glasses if you've broken one or just want some more.
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When you go to adb.fm store, you will see the mug and the pint glass at the top of the
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You also see a whole bunch of shirts.
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Do not buy those shirts.
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Those shirts are for the suckers who desperately want a shirt now, now, now and can't wait
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for the sale.
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But you, you know the WWDC is coming and you can wait for the WWDC sale where you will
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get the superior quality and more expensive shirts that we have for the WWDC sale.
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So don't be distracted and think, "Oh, this must be all the shirts they have for WWDC."
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That's just our on-demand shirts.
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Honestly, I like some of them because they're simpler and don't have stuff on the back or
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whatever, but the printing process is not as fancy as the printing process that we use
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for the time-limited sales.
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So for all the people who listen to this show, you know not to buy the shirts until we tell
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you, "Hey, it's a WWDC merch sale."
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But the mugs and the pint glasses are exactly the same as they've always ever been, so that's
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what we're telling you about now.
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Oh, I have some other follow-up for members of the show.
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This is possibly my favorite bug report I've ever gotten.
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We've heard from actually a few members over the last few months, if you were still using
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what used to be called iTunes, now it's called the music app on the Mac, to sync with an
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If you were syncing our podcast through either our bootleg or our member feeds to an iPod,
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It wouldn't have worked when I changed the CMS a few months back for any episode past
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when we started membership.
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So whenever that was, like three years ago, two years ago.
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The feed just didn't see those episodes.
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Only if you were syncing to an iPod.
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I'm happy to report that I have fixed this bug this week.
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What was the bug?
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So a special thanks to member Charlie who wrote in and was the latest person to report
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Earlier people had written in.
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I don't have your names handy.
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I had just let them fall on the floor
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after a while of giving up.
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So, Charlie pointed out exactly which episode
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was when the cutoff was that it stopped syncing.
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And I took a look in the feed and I realized
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that was when I had changed the enclosure URLs,
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like the audio file name URLs that are in the feed,
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to just be like long hashes.
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And they did not end in .mp3.
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And I remember when I was looking at this,
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I'm like, wait a minute, I remember a long time ago,
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Apple used to require that podcast feeds,
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they used to have to end the enclosure file names in .mp3.
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And I think this was even undocumented.
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But if you didn't do that, your feed wouldn't--
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- Undocumented from Apple?
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No. - I know, right?
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But, and to be fair, the Apple podcast team
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has always documented the feed format
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they expect and work with, but,
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and I don't know if this detail was documented,
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but that was a detail back forever ago.
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And for some reason, that was buried in my mind.
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That's what sticks in there.
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Not like birthdays, holidays, homework assignments,
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but that sticks in there.
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And I'm like, wait a minute.
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I wonder, if I just add .mp3 to the end of these URLs,
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I bet they'll start working.
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And sure enough, they did.
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So file extensions live on,
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much to people like John's chagrin.
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- File name extensions.
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I hate when people shorten it to file extensions because it doesn't make any sense.
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File name extensions, they're extensions on the file name, they're not extensions
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on the file.
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Next, Marco's going to tell you about his ATM machine.
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Yeah, yeah, which I accessed with my personal PIN number.
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No, that's the opposite.
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That's adding too much information.
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This is removing information.
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File name extensions.
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Yeah, that's terrible because the world is terrible and we can't have nice things
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because the whole world decided that they wanted to use file name extensions.
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We all suffer for it.
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- For a brief time, I lived without them
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and it was glorious.
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I'll tell my grandchildren about it.
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- Well, I'm glad to hear that.
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Also, we have some news.
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I genuinely, Marco did not tell us this
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before he brought it up on the show,
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so that was surprising and new for me.
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And then you also have some news for members in India,
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is that correct?
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- That was another whole thing.
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There was a very difficult to find bug in our CMS
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or in our payment gateway in particular
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that would affect cards that were verified
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with a thing called 3D Secure,
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which I think is pretty much universal in India
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and doesn't exist in the US.
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So I really didn't know about it.
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And this is one of those many details that Stripe,
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which is what we use to process our payments,
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pretty much handles for you.
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You don't really have to think about it.
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Except when you start customizing crap behind the scenes,
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which of course we can't help ourselves but do sometimes.
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And I had customized things behind the scenes
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in such a way that was breaking 3D Secure
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in a really difficult to find way.
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And some people, I don't know if it's everyone in India,
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but certainly multiple members who tried to sign up
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in India were getting an expired payment link error.
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And it was very, very hard to diagnose,
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but I eventually figured out it was,
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there was something I was doing on the back end
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to make failed payments suck less
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in the way they're handled.
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I was being too clever and it broke 3D Secure
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and I unbroke it, so sorry.
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- And then as a final note, speaking of members,
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just a very heartfelt thank you to all of you
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who have ever been a member,
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and especially those who are currently members,
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and double especially for those who just recently signed up
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after us talking about it recently.
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So thank you to all of you.
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Our membership numbers are looking better than ever,
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and I'm genuinely extremely pleased and humbled
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and thankful for that.
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So thank you, everyone. - Yeah, me too.
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- We appreciate it.
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All right, let's do some follow-up.
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The WWDC lottery has come in.
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I can tell you that I am not a big winner.
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- I'm pretty sure we can safely say we all lost,
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is that right? (laughs)
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- Yep, I mean, the odds were against us,
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so it is what it is.
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- No, WWC lottery winners amongst the ATP hosts,
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which is expected.
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- But congratulations to all the winners.
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And honestly, we don't even wanna win the lottery.
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We don't wanna take someone else's spot.
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We want press passes.
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Which we also probably won't get, but still.
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- Yeah, that's what we want,
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but I'm not sure that's what we're getting.
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- That's a different lottery.
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- That's not a lottery, that is not random.
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It is the opposite of random.
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- Well, from our point of view, it appears like a lottery.
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We get press things sometimes,
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and we are very thankful when that happens,
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but we have no idea when they'll be offered
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and most of the time they aren't.
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- Or why, really honestly, or why at all.
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'Cause when we get them, you don't ask questions.
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I mean, you don't get them, no one's gonna tell you why.
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So it is what it is.
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- I also wanted to, this is completely unrelated,
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I wanted to make a brief correction
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with regard to my beloved CalDigit TS-4.
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This is the Thunderbolt 4 docking station
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that I've been espousing for a year, year and a half now.
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I think I had made mention many, many moons ago
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that because of the particulars of the LG Ultra MAF 5K,
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I was doing a two-cable solution for my laptop.
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One of the cables was the CalDigit TS4.
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The studio display is and always has been
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hanging off of that.
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I have a few other devices hanging off of it.
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And then I would separately plug in the LG 5K
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because I was under the impression
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that you cannot have an LG 5K share with the CalDigit
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because it doesn't use display stream compression,
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if I remember correctly.
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And so it just didn't work.
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It had to be directly connected to the Mac.
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Turns out that's not right.
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Somebody on Maston, whose name I don't have in front of me,
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was asking for clarification on this,
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and I was like, "No, that doesn't work.
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"Let me just try it again."
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Oh, oh, so now I am in a one-cable solution
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for both the Studio Display and the LG 5K,
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so if you're one of the probably four people
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that I scared away from the CalDigit TS4,
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maybe not be so scared of it.
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It actually does work when the dual monitor's set up
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with the Studio Display and the 5K.
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The only thing that does not work is two LG 5Ks.
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That apparently is too much for one connection
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and that I am 100% sure does not work,
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but studio display in 5K is okay.
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- Did you double check that something hasn't changed
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about the thing?
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Like, is it not really 5K?
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Is it like the, does the bit depth go down
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or anything like that?
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- Those are, that is a completely fair question.
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I will say I did recently upgrade the firmware
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on the CalDigit and I swear to your point
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that I swear I tried this at some point and it didn't work,
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But it very well could have been user error.
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It very well could be a firmware update
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and it very well could be that the display,
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the 5K UltraMA is not showing as much as it could or should,
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or maybe if I plug anything into the back of it,
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'cause if you recall, it has a couple of USB-C ports on it.
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Maybe if I plug something in, it'll all come crumbling down.
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But at least for now,
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I'm living the one cable blissful lifestyle
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where I don't plug in power, I don't plug in any monitors.
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I literally just plug in the CalDigit
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and everything else hangs off that and it is wonderful.
00:10:30
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00:12:09
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So go to greenchef.com/atp60 to learn more
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and get 60% off plus free shipping with code ATP60.
00:12:19
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Once again, greenchef.com/ATP60
00:12:23
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and use code ATP60 to get 60% off plus free shipping.
00:12:27
◼
►
Thank you so much to Green Chef,
00:12:29
◼
►
the number one meal kit for eating well
00:12:31
◼
►
for sponsoring our show.
00:12:32
◼
►
(upbeat music)
00:12:36
◼
►
- Jon, tell me about Apple Photos deduplication
00:12:38
◼
►
in shared libraries, if you please.
00:12:41
◼
►
- That was a feature Apple rolled out in iOS 16.4,
00:12:44
◼
►
Mac OS 13.3, and whatever the hell iPad.
00:12:47
◼
►
iPad OS is also on 16.4,
00:12:48
◼
►
I don't remember if they're in sync on numbers.
00:12:50
◼
►
Anyway, we talked about it last episode,
00:12:53
◼
►
and I wanted to try it, so I did.
00:12:54
◼
►
And I did it in my usual cautious way.
00:12:56
◼
►
I remember my wife has the real photo library,
00:13:00
◼
►
and I had my own private photo library,
00:13:02
◼
►
but then I had also been manually taking everything
00:13:05
◼
►
from my phone from my photo library
00:13:07
◼
►
and manually importing it to hers,
00:13:08
◼
►
but I had this whole backlog of stuff in my library,
00:13:10
◼
►
some of which came from her library,
00:13:12
◼
►
'cause I'd take some pictures that were like the favorites
00:13:14
◼
►
from her library and put them into my library.
00:13:16
◼
►
And so when shared photo library came out,
00:13:18
◼
►
If I had just taken my entire library and shoved it into the shared library, there'd
00:13:22
◼
►
be tons of duplicates.
00:13:23
◼
►
But there was no duplicate detection.
00:13:24
◼
►
Well, now there is.
00:13:25
◼
►
So I'm like, finally, I can essentially empty my personal library, because my wife's personal
00:13:29
◼
►
library is empty.
00:13:30
◼
►
All of her photos, essentially, are in the shared library.
00:13:33
◼
►
I want that to be the same for me.
00:13:34
◼
►
So we would have one big shared library and a very minimum of photos in our personal library.
00:13:39
◼
►
And to give you an idea of the only photos that I wanted to keep in my personal library
00:13:43
◼
►
were my Destiny photos.
00:13:45
◼
►
And you may be wondering what that is.
00:13:48
◼
►
screenshots of builds and maps and you know maps with call outs written on them and you know
00:13:54
◼
►
raid mechanics and patterns. Anyway, it's stuff that she doesn't want. No one's ever gonna want to look at it.
00:14:01
◼
►
Yeah, I don't know why she wouldn't want that. And the second thing is a long series of pictures of my toes
00:14:07
◼
►
which if you want to know what that's about.
00:14:09
◼
►
Listen to Reconcilable Differences.
00:14:11
◼
►
I've been taking pictures of my toes during various medical situations. She did not want a shared library.
00:14:17
◼
►
and honestly I do not blame her.
00:14:19
◼
►
So those stayed in my personal life.
00:14:21
◼
►
- You know there's someone out there who,
00:14:23
◼
►
that went from the most sexy potential thing
00:14:26
◼
►
you could have possibly said very quickly
00:14:28
◼
►
to the least sexy potential thing.
00:14:29
◼
►
- Wait, Destiny?
00:14:31
◼
►
Destiny build screenshots?
00:14:33
◼
►
- Yes, that's what I was doing.
00:14:34
◼
►
Definitely not the toes.
00:14:34
◼
►
- Okay, all right.
00:14:37
◼
►
So, but I, you know, this feature,
00:14:39
◼
►
like I read a lot about it, but you know,
00:14:41
◼
►
this is, you know, I had tens of thousands of photos.
00:14:44
◼
►
Maybe, you know, 60, 70,000, I forgot how many it was, right?
00:14:47
◼
►
most of those were going to be unique but there was going to be lots of
00:14:50
◼
►
lots of duplicates right
00:14:53
◼
►
i've checked a bunch in there just like a hundred so chuck them into the library
00:14:57
◼
►
and then you have to wait for like in typical apple fashion
00:15:00
◼
►
is not like you could say now please detect duplicates no you have to wait
00:15:03
◼
►
until it decides to detect duplicates and
00:15:06
◼
►
the way you'll be able to tell that it has decided to detect duplicates is suddenly
00:15:09
◼
►
a duplicate photos item will appear on the sidebar. I'm doing this on the Mac by the way
00:15:12
◼
►
so it's a sidebar in mac photos. You could have done it on iOS as well but i wanted to do it on the big
00:15:15
◼
►
screen and everything
00:15:16
◼
►
And when it finds duplicates, you click on the duplicates and in the Mac version of photos,
00:15:21
◼
►
it shows basically a linear list top to bottom and each row in the list is two photos.
00:15:27
◼
►
It shows two photos and then underneath it two more, underneath it two more, which is
00:15:29
◼
►
ridiculous on the Pro Display XDR because it's this huge expansive white space to the
00:15:33
◼
►
right of it where there's nothing.
00:15:34
◼
►
But whatever, it's two by two, right?
00:15:36
◼
►
That was Zark.
00:15:38
◼
►
And then there's a little blue link above each set of two that says merge these two
00:15:44
◼
►
Why is it not a button?
00:15:45
◼
►
Is it a blue web link?
00:15:47
◼
►
Who freaking knows?
00:15:48
◼
►
So I'm looking at it, and I click the merge on that one,
00:15:52
◼
►
and it says--
00:15:54
◼
►
I think the first one was like, merge these two exact
00:15:57
◼
►
And it has some explanatory text that explains what it means.
00:16:01
◼
►
And I said yes.
00:16:03
◼
►
And then it takes the one that--
00:16:05
◼
►
it throws away one, puts it in the recently deleted folder,
00:16:08
◼
►
so it's not really immediately deleting it.
00:16:10
◼
►
So it's still there, so you can look at it.
00:16:11
◼
►
And then it takes the other one, and like we
00:16:13
◼
►
episode, it puts it into the shared library and says,
00:16:16
◼
►
this was added to the shared library by person x and person
00:16:20
◼
►
So it shows that it came from both of those places,
00:16:22
◼
►
which is great.
00:16:23
◼
►
And it's supposed to pick the highest quality
00:16:26
◼
►
copy of the photo.
00:16:27
◼
►
And so what I did before I looked at it, it's like, OK,
00:16:29
◼
►
let me look at this.
00:16:30
◼
►
And sometimes, when it says exact duplicate,
00:16:33
◼
►
they would be the same file size, the same resolution,
00:16:36
◼
►
like pretty exact duplicate.
00:16:38
◼
►
Sometimes when you click the little merge these two photos
00:16:41
◼
►
thing, it will say merge these two photos,
00:16:43
◼
►
but it wouldn't say that they were exact duplicates.
00:16:45
◼
►
In that case, one of them would be a different resolution,
00:16:48
◼
►
much smaller than the other, so on and so forth.
00:16:51
◼
►
And in that case, I would click the merge,
00:16:52
◼
►
and then I would confirm, like, okay,
00:16:54
◼
►
one is three and a half megs, and one is 174K.
00:16:58
◼
►
I really want to take the three and a half meg one, please.
00:17:01
◼
►
And so I'd click merge, and then I'd go and confirm,
00:17:03
◼
►
you can like show photo in all photos,
00:17:05
◼
►
and I would confirm, yes, it kept the 3.3 meg one,
00:17:07
◼
►
and that would look and recently delete it.
00:17:08
◼
►
Okay, there's the 174K one.
00:17:12
◼
►
I did this manually spot checking many, many, many times as I scroll, merge these two photos,
00:17:20
◼
►
look at the dialog, see what the options are, decide what I think it's supposed to do, let
00:17:24
◼
►
it do its thing, confirm that it did what I thought it was supposed to do.
00:17:27
◼
►
Sometimes it would have two RAW photos, a RAW versus a JPEG.
00:17:31
◼
►
I couldn't quite tell why in some situations it would show me a RAW and a JPEG and consider
00:17:35
◼
►
them duplicates.
00:17:36
◼
►
In other cases it wouldn't.
00:17:38
◼
►
So I just basically made sure that it always did what I wanted it to do.
00:17:41
◼
►
And I did this for dozens of photos, manually.
00:17:44
◼
►
And then I was like, all right, so I'm
00:17:47
◼
►
pretty sure this is working the way Apple said it would.
00:17:49
◼
►
It never made a mistake.
00:17:51
◼
►
Every time I looked at two photos,
00:17:52
◼
►
I would agree that we should only keep one of them,
00:17:54
◼
►
and I would decide which one it should be,
00:17:56
◼
►
and I would let Apple's thing do it,
00:17:57
◼
►
and it would pick the one that I thought it should.
00:17:58
◼
►
So good, thumbs up, it's working.
00:18:00
◼
►
And it took me a little while to figure out, OK,
00:18:03
◼
►
do I have to sit here and click the little merge these two,
00:18:05
◼
►
merge these two, merge these-- it would be like,
00:18:06
◼
►
merge these two, and then hit the Return key
00:18:08
◼
►
to select the default button on the dialog that appears.
00:18:10
◼
►
Merge, return, merge, return.
00:18:11
◼
►
Like, do I have to do that for all of them?
00:18:13
◼
►
So I glanced up to the duplicates thing and say,
00:18:15
◼
►
how many duplicates are there?
00:18:16
◼
►
And the answer was 30,000.
00:18:18
◼
►
- Oh, goodness.
00:18:20
◼
►
- So I was not going to sit there and click the blue link
00:18:22
◼
►
and click return 30,000 times, right?
00:18:25
◼
►
And so since it's a Mac, it works the way most Mac things
00:18:28
◼
►
do, you can just select all or click one
00:18:30
◼
►
and then scroll down to the end and shift click.
00:18:32
◼
►
All sorts of things that I imagined I would have
00:18:35
◼
►
a little bit more trouble doing on a phone
00:18:37
◼
►
just because of how fidgety things are with the scroll bars
00:18:39
◼
►
and the small screen and my big fat finger.
00:18:41
◼
►
So I was glad I was doing it on a Mac.
00:18:43
◼
►
But I didn't select them all first.
00:18:44
◼
►
First I selected, you know, a thousand
00:18:47
◼
►
and said, you know, merge these duplicates.
00:18:49
◼
►
And it did, and then I, you know,
00:18:51
◼
►
I tried to spot check the thousand that I picked
00:18:53
◼
►
and they all looked good.
00:18:54
◼
►
And then I did 2000 and then eventually I'm like, okay,
00:18:58
◼
►
I am thoroughly satisfied that this thing is working.
00:19:00
◼
►
Select all, merge all these things.
00:19:02
◼
►
And it merged them all.
00:19:04
◼
►
And it, as far as I can tell,
00:19:06
◼
►
everything went off without a hitch.
00:19:08
◼
►
No, as far as I can tell, I didn't lose any photos.
00:19:11
◼
►
I went into the recently deleted thing
00:19:12
◼
►
and looked through what it had deleted,
00:19:14
◼
►
and I'm like, yeah, these look like the ones
00:19:15
◼
►
that I would want deleted, and didn't do anything weird,
00:19:18
◼
►
and I emptied my library,
00:19:19
◼
►
except for Toe photos and Destiny photos.
00:19:22
◼
►
Actually, what I did, I actually just merged them all,
00:19:27
◼
►
and then I unmerged the Toe and the Destiny ones.
00:19:30
◼
►
I probably unmerged them before
00:19:31
◼
►
they even synced to anybody else,
00:19:33
◼
►
so that was the easiest way to do it,
00:19:34
◼
►
'cause I had them in folders or whatever.
00:19:36
◼
►
So thumbs up on this feature.
00:19:38
◼
►
Just like the shared photo library,
00:19:39
◼
►
I'm pretty sure it works exactly the way Apple said it would.
00:19:43
◼
►
And my only complaints continue to be the lack of features
00:19:46
◼
►
and not the features that they did add, right?
00:19:49
◼
►
So I still want shared albums and so on and so forth,
00:19:50
◼
►
but as they add the features, the features appear to work.
00:19:53
◼
►
And I think I'm giving these things a pretty good workout
00:19:56
◼
►
with my 150, 160,000 photo library
00:19:59
◼
►
and merging 30,000 duplicates.
00:20:01
◼
►
And there was a typical kind of like,
00:20:03
◼
►
sometimes there was lag
00:20:05
◼
►
and I went over to different computers
00:20:06
◼
►
and I saw this one still thinks there's some duplicates.
00:20:08
◼
►
There was like one day worth of me visiting each computer
00:20:11
◼
►
and saying, do you think all the duplicates are gone?
00:20:13
◼
►
Do you think all the duplicates are gone?
00:20:14
◼
►
And occasionally a few more would pop up,
00:20:16
◼
►
but now everything has settled down.
00:20:18
◼
►
And during the whole time,
00:20:19
◼
►
I don't think it did anything wrong.
00:20:20
◼
►
So if you are afraid of this thing,
00:20:23
◼
►
this duplicate feature,
00:20:24
◼
►
know that at least one person has tried it
00:20:26
◼
►
and it has not been disastrous.
00:20:28
◼
►
- Yay. - Glowing recommendation.
00:20:30
◼
►
- Right, right.
00:20:31
◼
►
All right, so tell me about disasters
00:20:33
◼
►
with regard to your bug reports.
00:20:35
◼
►
- This is about my Anus Tracking Area bug.
00:20:37
◼
►
And it said that it seemed like maybe the team
00:20:40
◼
►
that made the change was hoping they could make a change
00:20:42
◼
►
to a framework, but sort of not tell anybody about it
00:20:45
◼
►
in the hopes that like, probably no one will notice this.
00:20:49
◼
►
And so we can just make this change.
00:20:50
◼
►
We don't have to put it in the release notes.
00:20:52
◼
►
We don't have to, you know,
00:20:53
◼
►
make a change to the documentation.
00:20:55
◼
►
We could just, you know, no one is probably relying
00:20:57
◼
►
on this existing behavior, right?
00:20:58
◼
►
And it turns out I was relying on that existing behavior.
00:21:01
◼
►
And so I, you know, wrote a bug about it.
00:21:02
◼
►
And then they had to say, oh yeah, no, the new behavior is new behavior.
00:21:05
◼
►
So here's some anonymous feedback regarding this phenomenon within Apple.
00:21:09
◼
►
This person says, I was on a team at Apple 10 years ago.
00:21:13
◼
►
This is the problem with these stories.
00:21:14
◼
►
You get info from people who are willing to talk.
00:21:16
◼
►
They're willing to talk when they were at Apple 10 years ago.
00:21:18
◼
►
They're not really into talk right now or whatever.
00:21:20
◼
►
But anyway, take it for what it's worth.
00:21:22
◼
►
I was on a team at Apple 10 years ago that worked on a tool that would ingest all iOS
00:21:26
◼
►
apps in the store nightly and run analysis to see what frameworks and methods they were
00:21:31
◼
►
frequently get asked by other teams to provide usage information of specific framework calls
00:21:35
◼
►
to see if any of the top 100 apps use them. I assume this information will be used to
00:21:40
◼
►
determine the effects of removing or changing frameworks. This was 10 years ago and I would
00:21:44
◼
►
assume they have better methods for this now. This makes me think that Apple would definitely
00:21:47
◼
►
know if Microsoft Office or Photoshop would be affected by these types of changes.
00:21:50
◼
►
So a few things about this. First, there's lots of reasons why you would examine API
00:21:55
◼
►
of apps in the App Store beyond letting teams know whether they can change an
00:21:59
◼
►
API. Second, Photoshop is sold outside the App Store. I know there are versions of
00:22:05
◼
►
Photoshop inside the App Store but like the real Photoshop is outside the App
00:22:08
◼
►
Store. Microsoft Office I believe is sold both outside and inside the App Store so
00:22:12
◼
►
I'm not entirely sure if this would let you know. But yes, Apple obviously does
00:22:19
◼
►
lots of analysis of the apps in the App Store. That's one of the advantages of
00:22:23
◼
►
of running the App Store and the advantage of it reviewing every application is any kind
00:22:27
◼
►
of automated thing like this of just saying like, "What frameworks are popular?
00:22:31
◼
►
Who's using them?
00:22:32
◼
►
We introduced the new framework at WWDC.
00:22:35
◼
►
How long does it take for that framework to start appearing in apps?
00:22:37
◼
►
Who is using it?
00:22:38
◼
►
What APIs are they using?
00:22:39
◼
►
If we made a framework, how much of the API service is being used and by what?"
00:22:43
◼
►
And especially for the top 100 apps, the apps that we really care about, I don't know how
00:22:47
◼
►
they even determine top 100 apps.
00:22:49
◼
►
It's all casino games for children at this point, so I'm not sure how representative
00:22:53
◼
►
that is of what APIs they should work on.
00:22:55
◼
►
But yeah, I do think Apple has good visibility into that.
00:22:58
◼
►
But of course, Apple being Apple, the team making changes to the framework has to ask
00:23:03
◼
►
some other team, the API usage app store analysis team to find out.
00:23:09
◼
►
And of course, my API in question was on the Mac, and so they have to ask about the Mac
00:23:12
◼
►
App Store, and I think the top 10 apps in the Mac App Store are probably not representative
00:23:17
◼
►
of the top 10 apps used by Mac users, and so there's a little bit more difficulty there.
00:23:21
◼
►
But anyway, there's one take from the inside on Apple's unsurprising awareness and analysis
00:23:28
◼
►
of the software that passes through their ecosystem.
00:23:31
◼
►
We also got some feedback from another anonymous person, which indicates that maybe the radar
00:23:36
◼
►
grass is not actually greener on the other side.
00:23:39
◼
►
I'm going to read most of it.
00:23:41
◼
►
"I work for a big developer in the games industry, and we definitely get a very different support
00:23:44
◼
►
experience from Apple, though I'm not sure the outcomes are any different.
00:23:48
◼
►
At the corporate level, which is way above my level,
00:23:50
◼
►
we have whole teams of developer relationships,
00:23:52
◼
►
people from Apple talking to our first-party relationships,
00:23:55
◼
►
people about business deals or whatever.
00:23:58
◼
►
I have only the tiniest insight into this,
00:23:59
◼
►
and I can't share it.
00:24:00
◼
►
My team is direct contact with someone
00:24:02
◼
►
in Apple Developer Relations
00:24:03
◼
►
and several engineers that work with them.
00:24:05
◼
►
We have monthly meetings between our engineers and this team
00:24:07
◼
►
in which we raise issues, ask for advice, et cetera.
00:24:09
◼
►
We also have a private Slack channel
00:24:11
◼
►
with that same DevRel team
00:24:12
◼
►
where we can raise issues and get a response at any time.
00:24:15
◼
►
It seems like this should be great, right?
00:24:17
◼
►
Right? But we end up with broadly the same frustrations.
00:24:21
◼
►
Da-da-da-da. Wow. Responses to our bug reports are slow. Granted, less slow because we have more
00:24:28
◼
►
ability to nag them about it. We continually have to prod the Slack thread and ask, "What's happening
00:24:33
◼
►
with this issue?" We see the "We think we've fixed it!" or "Try in the latest beta" responses from
00:24:39
◼
►
Apple, but they haven't fixed it and it's still difficult to figure out which beta that will
00:24:43
◼
►
will supposedly have the fix.
00:24:45
◼
►
They still can't share any details
00:24:46
◼
►
of how things work under the hood
00:24:47
◼
►
to help us come up with viable workarounds,
00:24:49
◼
►
which in some cases we would need
00:24:50
◼
►
even if the bugs were fixed
00:24:51
◼
►
because we want to support a broader range of OS versions.
00:24:54
◼
►
They often can't answer straightforward questions
00:24:57
◼
►
like what are the performance implications of X versus Y?
00:25:00
◼
►
Either because they don't know, can't say, or it depends.
00:25:03
◼
►
And they can't tell us on what.
00:25:05
◼
►
I guess my point is it isn't just the feedback radar system
00:25:09
◼
►
itself that's the problem.
00:25:11
◼
►
Apple's organization seems to be set up
00:25:13
◼
►
with such a focus on secrecy
00:25:15
◼
►
that they just can't provide the transparency
00:25:16
◼
►
that you need as an external developer
00:25:18
◼
►
to really believe that they do actually care about
00:25:21
◼
►
and are working on your problems.
00:25:23
◼
►
I'm gonna read it again because I think it's that good.
00:25:26
◼
►
Apple's organization seems to be set up
00:25:28
◼
►
with such a focus on secrecy
00:25:29
◼
►
that they just can't provide the transparency
00:25:31
◼
►
that you need as an external developer
00:25:33
◼
►
to really believe that they do actually care about
00:25:36
◼
►
and are working on your problems.
00:25:39
◼
►
Amen to that.
00:25:40
◼
►
- I know this is framed as,
00:25:42
◼
►
our deal for us is different when we're at a big company,
00:25:45
◼
►
but the outcomes are the same.
00:25:46
◼
►
But how much would you kill for a private Slack channel
00:25:48
◼
►
with Apple engineers? - Oh gosh.
00:25:49
◼
►
- So you could prod them in threads.
00:25:51
◼
►
Like I know that it's still,
00:25:52
◼
►
they are held back by being unresponsive
00:25:55
◼
►
and like, oh, they can't tell you.
00:25:56
◼
►
And like, yeah, it is frustrating, it is worse than,
00:25:58
◼
►
I think what they'd be comparing it to is,
00:26:00
◼
►
say you're a big important company.
00:26:02
◼
►
Big important company would get better support
00:26:04
◼
►
from say, Microsoft than they get from Apple, you know?
00:26:07
◼
►
We're not expecting that tinky little developers
00:26:09
◼
►
will get the same support as a big, giant company.
00:26:12
◼
►
I think where they're coming from here
00:26:14
◼
►
is we are a big, important company,
00:26:15
◼
►
so we know how big and important companies get treated
00:26:18
◼
►
by different platform owners.
00:26:20
◼
►
And Apple is the worst, right?
00:26:21
◼
►
Because of secrecy.
00:26:22
◼
►
Because they can't tell us things,
00:26:24
◼
►
and because they're unresponsive,
00:26:26
◼
►
and because there's layers-- that the organization is not
00:26:29
◼
►
set up to be responsive to demand.
00:26:32
◼
►
So as jealous as we are as individual developers
00:26:35
◼
►
of having these kind of touch points,
00:26:37
◼
►
It's unrealistic to assume that any individual would have this.
00:26:41
◼
►
But within each sort of cohort, within each strata
00:26:46
◼
►
of developers, it seems like if you were to compare like to like,
00:26:49
◼
►
big company, how do you get support from Apple versus how you get it
00:26:53
◼
►
from Microsoft versus how you get it from Google, Apple is always in last place,
00:26:56
◼
►
seemingly for structural and secrecy reasons.
00:27:00
◼
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00:28:50
◼
►
- All right, and thus we enter the camera portion
00:28:56
◼
►
of the show which begins in follow-up,
00:28:58
◼
►
but will continue into the main topic.
00:29:00
◼
►
I believe this is all Marco, is that correct?
00:29:02
◼
►
- It's certainly a lot, Ne.
00:29:05
◼
►
Although I'm sure Jon will jump in, and I hope he does.
00:29:09
◼
►
Because there's going to be a lot.
00:29:12
◼
►
All right, so I've gone through my brief camera buying phase
00:29:17
◼
►
of the five-year span that we're in, because it's about as often
00:29:20
◼
►
as I buy cameras.
00:29:21
◼
►
It's a pattern.
00:29:22
◼
►
I recognize it at this point.
00:29:24
◼
►
About every five years, I see what modern cameras can do.
00:29:27
◼
►
It blows me away.
00:29:28
◼
►
I buy one or two modern cameras.
00:29:30
◼
►
And then over the next few years,
00:29:32
◼
►
I stop using them because they're too much
00:29:34
◼
►
to carry around.
00:29:35
◼
►
iPhones get better and more convenient,
00:29:36
◼
►
and I say, eh, I'm never gonna buy a camera again.
00:29:39
◼
►
And then what inevitably happens is,
00:29:42
◼
►
a few years later, the cycle repeats as cameras get better.
00:29:45
◼
►
- Has the cycle repeated that much?
00:29:47
◼
►
I think you may be on the first round
00:29:48
◼
►
of this particular cycle, 'cause I think you,
00:29:50
◼
►
basically you were like, big cameras are good,
00:29:52
◼
►
I'm into big cameras, and then the iPhone camera got good,
00:29:55
◼
►
and then you switched all iPhone,
00:29:56
◼
►
I think this is your first backslide,
00:29:58
◼
►
unless I'm remembering it different.
00:30:00
◼
►
- No, that sounds right.
00:30:01
◼
►
- I think this is the first loop.
00:30:02
◼
►
I mean, I agree with you that it's probably gonna repeat.
00:30:05
◼
►
Let history be a guide.
00:30:07
◼
►
They're the cycles of Marco.
00:30:09
◼
►
I think to be fair to you,
00:30:11
◼
►
this is your first time through this.
00:30:14
◼
►
- Maybe, yeah, maybe my first,
00:30:16
◼
►
it's certainly my first time in a while,
00:30:17
◼
►
in about five years.
00:30:19
◼
►
I guess there was my brief flirtation
00:30:21
◼
►
with being a video producer,
00:30:22
◼
►
where I bought a couple of objects for video production,
00:30:25
◼
►
never used them, and eventually mailed them to you.
00:30:27
◼
►
- I mean, you made some videos.
00:30:29
◼
►
You actually made videos with them, right?
00:30:31
◼
►
- I think I made a video.
00:30:32
◼
►
- No, you had like a Mac mini video and some other thing.
00:30:35
◼
►
- And the iPad Pro 2018.
00:30:38
◼
►
I think it was the same event.
00:30:40
◼
►
- But in that one, I don't think you had a period
00:30:42
◼
►
where you were like, big video cameras are crappy,
00:30:45
◼
►
you should just use your iPhone for everything.
00:30:47
◼
►
- Yeah, but anyway, as usual during this phase,
00:30:50
◼
►
I was trying to figure out how do I make my new cool camera
00:30:54
◼
►
as convenient as the iPhone.
00:30:55
◼
►
And of course, that's impossible.
00:30:57
◼
►
But I ran into a couple of issues.
00:30:59
◼
►
Number one was I was torn between the physical size
00:31:04
◼
►
of the Ricoh GR3X, which is awesome.
00:31:07
◼
►
I was not super thrilled with the color of its pictures.
00:31:12
◼
►
And then I was very impressed by the Fujifilm X100V,
00:31:17
◼
►
but it was a little bit less technically easy to use
00:31:21
◼
►
and technically sharp as the Ricoh GR3X.
00:31:25
◼
►
But the Fuji produced pictures
00:31:27
◼
►
that I just loved the colors from.
00:31:29
◼
►
And so, got a bunch of feedback on this.
00:31:31
◼
►
So first of all, a number of people sent in this website.
00:31:34
◼
►
It's ricorecipes.com.
00:31:36
◼
►
This is Richie's Rico Recipes.
00:31:38
◼
►
And the Rico has these various customization options
00:31:42
◼
►
where you can set, all right, for custom mode number two,
00:31:45
◼
►
set color plus two, saturation minus one,
00:31:48
◼
►
sharpness plus one, that kind of thing.
00:31:50
◼
►
And so, what this person Richie has done
00:31:52
◼
►
is made a whole bunch of presets for those settings
00:31:55
◼
►
that you can enter into your camera
00:31:57
◼
►
to achieve different looks.
00:31:58
◼
►
and the idea is to get much of the same benefit
00:32:01
◼
►
as Fuji's film emulation modes,
00:32:03
◼
►
which are very appealing and very popular with Ricoh cameras.
00:32:08
◼
►
I tried them, they are better than the Ricoh's defaults,
00:32:12
◼
►
but I was not able to find one
00:32:15
◼
►
that I really thought was comparable
00:32:17
◼
►
to what I was getting out of the Fuji
00:32:18
◼
►
with no effort whatsoever.
00:32:20
◼
►
If what you want is really cool colors in the photos
00:32:23
◼
►
and if you like the way Fuji's render color,
00:32:26
◼
►
there is no direct substitution in camera hardware.
00:32:28
◼
►
Now, you can get Lightroom presets and stuff
00:32:31
◼
►
that people have made to try to emulate Fuji's modes,
00:32:33
◼
►
and they might come closer,
00:32:35
◼
►
but I have not yet found anything that offers
00:32:36
◼
►
what Fuji does in in-camera JPEG processing,
00:32:39
◼
►
so you can just dump it right onto something
00:32:41
◼
►
and use it immediately.
00:32:42
◼
►
On the Fuji itself, I talked about how crappy
00:32:46
◼
►
all the camera apps are, about transferring photos
00:32:49
◼
►
over Wi-Fi to your phone or whatever,
00:32:51
◼
►
like all these different schemes everyone has,
00:32:52
◼
►
and they're all crappy and terrible and slow.
00:32:54
◼
►
Fuji has this feature called PC Auto Save,
00:32:59
◼
►
and I assume it's how you pronounce it,
00:33:00
◼
►
'cause it's in all capitals.
00:33:01
◼
►
- PC load letter, what the eff does that mean?
00:33:03
◼
►
- Abort, retry, fail.
00:33:04
◼
►
- There you go.
00:33:05
◼
►
- Let's pull out all the old PC tropes
00:33:07
◼
►
where everything was in caps.
00:33:08
◼
►
- Yeah, so anyway, PC Auto Save is on most Fuji cameras,
00:33:13
◼
►
at least most reasonably modern ones,
00:33:16
◼
►
although it's funny, I decided in the intervening time
00:33:20
◼
►
to cancel my return for the XT5.
00:33:25
◼
►
I kept the XT5 and I love it and shut up.
00:33:28
◼
►
So anyway, PC autosave is on the X100V
00:33:32
◼
►
and many other modern Fuji cameras.
00:33:34
◼
►
It's on the XT3 and 4, I think.
00:33:36
◼
►
For some reason, I don't think it's on the XT5.
00:33:39
◼
►
I can't find it anywhere and it's not
00:33:41
◼
►
on the compatibility list and it's not
00:33:43
◼
►
in the instruction manual and I can't find it anywhere
00:33:44
◼
►
in the menus, so.
00:33:45
◼
►
- Did you do a firmware update?
00:33:47
◼
►
- Yes I did, it's the modern version of everything,
00:33:48
◼
►
thank you for.
00:33:49
◼
►
John, you were the one who taught me
00:33:51
◼
►
that camera firmware updates exist.
00:33:53
◼
►
So that's the first thing I tried.
00:33:55
◼
►
Oh, maybe I got an early version and it didn't help.
00:33:58
◼
►
And it's listed nowhere, it's documented nowhere,
00:34:00
◼
►
it's not in the instructions,
00:34:01
◼
►
so I'm pretty sure it just doesn't have this feature
00:34:03
◼
►
for some reason.
00:34:04
◼
►
But anyway, what PC autosave is,
00:34:07
◼
►
is you run this horrendous little Fuji app
00:34:10
◼
►
on your Mac or PC or whatever,
00:34:12
◼
►
you set up the camera, you kind of pair the camera
00:34:14
◼
►
to this app on your computer
00:34:15
◼
►
that's always running in your menu bar
00:34:16
◼
►
with a hideous icon and an even more hideous interface.
00:34:19
◼
►
and you can tell the camera,
00:34:21
◼
►
you can go to the playback menu and select PC auto save
00:34:24
◼
►
and it will then begin to very slowly
00:34:28
◼
►
connect to your WiFi network, find your PC
00:34:31
◼
►
and then very slowly automatically save the pictures to it
00:34:35
◼
►
over your WiFi network.
00:34:37
◼
►
And it is a comically slow process but it does work.
00:34:42
◼
►
So if you happen to have your computer
00:34:45
◼
►
on the same WiFi network as your camera,
00:34:48
◼
►
this method is a little bit less horrible
00:34:51
◼
►
than using the apps to transfer.
00:34:52
◼
►
But ultimately, all of these methods
00:34:54
◼
►
are so much more horrible than just plugging the camera
00:34:58
◼
►
directly into your computer or popping the card out
00:35:00
◼
►
and using a card reader.
00:35:02
◼
►
You're better off just doing that.
00:35:03
◼
►
And I think once the iPhone goes USB-C,
00:35:06
◼
►
I would imagine you will probably be able
00:35:09
◼
►
to just plug in any USB-C card reader to the iPhone
00:35:13
◼
►
and I bet it'll import it directly.
00:35:15
◼
►
'Cause right now Apple has sold various camera connection
00:35:19
◼
►
kit accessories over the years.
00:35:21
◼
►
Some of which have USB ports,
00:35:22
◼
►
some of which just have SD card slots.
00:35:25
◼
►
I believe the ones of those that use the lightning port
00:35:28
◼
►
I think do already work on the iPhone,
00:35:30
◼
►
but I'm not positive about that.
00:35:31
◼
►
I don't have one here to test,
00:35:32
◼
►
and I wasn't gonna buy one a few months
00:35:33
◼
►
before the USB-C iPhone comes out.
00:35:35
◼
►
So I could be wrong on that, but anyway,
00:35:37
◼
►
that's an option maybe to go directly to a phone.
00:35:40
◼
►
I know it at least works on iPads,
00:35:41
◼
►
and definitely works on Macs.
00:35:43
◼
►
So that's the way to go if you wanna transfer photos
00:35:45
◼
►
to your cool Apple hardware is just dump them onto the computer directly with the card or
00:35:50
◼
►
the cable. Also got a wonderful tip, my complaint about the X100V was I was having trouble getting
00:35:59
◼
►
the autofocus to really nail the focus, like especially on eyes, it was sometimes like
00:36:03
◼
►
you know focus on the tip of the eyelashes instead of the actual eye surface, stuff like
00:36:09
◼
►
that, it was like slightly missing focus a lot and I was having trouble getting sharp
00:36:13
◼
►
So anonymous wrote in to say that the F100V ships with the
00:36:18
◼
►
release/focus priority setting on shutter,
00:36:22
◼
►
meaning it will prioritize taking a picture
00:36:25
◼
►
over actually getting the right focus.
00:36:27
◼
►
Changing it to focus improved my hit rate noticeably
00:36:30
◼
►
and seems to have little impact on shutter lag
00:36:32
◼
►
in most situations.
00:36:33
◼
►
So to explain this, basically almost every modern camera,
00:36:36
◼
►
at least in default mode, usually if you push the shutter
00:36:41
◼
►
button but the lens has not focused yet,
00:36:43
◼
►
usually it will wait until it locks on focus
00:36:47
◼
►
and then take the picture, so that's shutter lag.
00:36:49
◼
►
And sometimes it's really frustrating
00:36:51
◼
►
if you're maybe in the dark
00:36:52
◼
►
and the camera's having trouble focusing
00:36:54
◼
►
and you're like, just push it, just take it,
00:36:55
◼
►
and the camera's going, going back and forth
00:36:58
◼
►
and can't really focus on something.
00:37:00
◼
►
So oftentimes this feature, in more pro modes
00:37:04
◼
►
or more pro models, will be set to shutter priority,
00:37:07
◼
►
which means as soon as you hit the shutter button
00:37:09
◼
►
all the way down, just take the picture,
00:37:12
◼
►
regardless of whether the autofocus engine
00:37:13
◼
►
thinks it has focus or not.
00:37:15
◼
►
So the X100V ships in that mode by default,
00:37:17
◼
►
where it just takes the picture,
00:37:19
◼
►
even if it's not focused all the way.
00:37:21
◼
►
So I changed this, the way Anonymous said,
00:37:23
◼
►
to change it to focus priority,
00:37:25
◼
►
so the former where it waits for focus,
00:37:27
◼
►
even if it introduces some lag
00:37:29
◼
►
before it actually takes the picture.
00:37:31
◼
►
And I agree, it seems to have improved the hit rate,
00:37:35
◼
►
and it does not seem to introduce noticeable lag
00:37:37
◼
►
in any situation I've encountered so far.
00:37:39
◼
►
- Are you not a fan of back button focusing,
00:37:44
◼
►
which would also solve this problem for you?
00:37:46
◼
►
- Like the AF on button on cannons and stuff like that,
00:37:48
◼
►
where you hit the button there without,
00:37:50
◼
►
because normally I just half press the shutter
00:37:53
◼
►
and then go all the way.
00:37:53
◼
►
- Right, so most people, phones,
00:37:55
◼
►
phones, cameras, big cameras ship,
00:37:58
◼
►
so that if you press the shutter button halfway down,
00:38:01
◼
►
it will start focusing,
00:38:02
◼
►
and then if you press it the rest of the way down,
00:38:03
◼
►
it will take the picture,
00:38:04
◼
►
and at that point, everything you just described takes place.
00:38:06
◼
►
It says, "Should I really take the picture,
00:38:07
◼
►
"or should I wait for the focusing motor
00:38:09
◼
►
to finish getting to where I know it's supposed to focus and so on and so forth.
00:38:12
◼
►
The other technique is often called back button focusing, which means you assign some button
00:38:17
◼
►
on the back of your camera to be the "please do autofocus now" button.
00:38:23
◼
►
And then the shutter button is, you turn off the feature that makes the camera try to focus
00:38:28
◼
►
when you push the shutter button halfway down.
00:38:30
◼
►
So you separate the two functions.
00:38:31
◼
►
So you decide when you want your camera to do autofocusing with the back button, and
00:38:36
◼
►
once you're happy with the focus you can press the shutter button. you can do both
00:38:40
◼
►
of them at the same time and then you would still have the same situation where
00:38:43
◼
►
should I wait for the motor or whatever but you can also do your focus and then
00:38:47
◼
►
once you're happy yes you've got the focus to my satisfaction and you know
00:38:50
◼
►
the thing isn't moving the person isn't moving or whatever then when you press
00:38:53
◼
►
the shutter button it's going to take it immediately because no part of pressing
00:38:56
◼
►
the shutter button tells it to do focus again focusing is separated from
00:38:59
◼
►
shutter. I am not a big fan of this but I see I see the situations where it could
00:39:05
◼
►
be advantageous and some people, this is the only way they view the camera and they consider
00:39:09
◼
►
it broken to use the other way, but I feel like it's just kind of a muscle memory type
00:39:12
◼
►
thing a lot of the times.
00:39:13
◼
►
But you see the advantage is like, if you get it focused on somebody and they're not
00:39:17
◼
►
moving, very often with cameras, with modern cameras being so good at focusing on stuff,
00:39:23
◼
►
like someone in the background will move and turn their head towards the camera and the
00:39:26
◼
►
camera will be like, "Ooh, a pair of eyes.
00:39:27
◼
►
I'm totally going to focus on that."
00:39:29
◼
►
It's like, no, no.
00:39:30
◼
►
Focus on the ear of the person I just focused on.
00:39:31
◼
►
Like you know, if you get the focus the way you want and the person you focus on turns
00:39:35
◼
►
their head away, so now they're just ears facing you, but you're happy with that focal
00:39:38
◼
►
plane, you don't want it to jump to the person in the background whose two eyes just face
00:39:43
◼
►
You want it to stay where you left it, so in that situation, you do back button focusing
00:39:47
◼
►
to get the focus you want, so you get perfect eye focus on that person, and even if they
00:39:50
◼
►
turn their head slightly, you don't want it to pick some other subject, so then you use
00:39:53
◼
►
the shutter button for it.
00:39:55
◼
►
So if you got used to that technique of focusing, I think that would essentially do the same
00:40:01
◼
►
thing as you saying shutter priority because, you know, in that case the shutter never activates
00:40:05
◼
►
autofocus it just fires the shutter.
00:40:08
◼
►
Yeah, I never shot that style but, you know, a lot of people do so there's probably some,
00:40:13
◼
►
I probably should be using that style.
00:40:15
◼
►
It's more cumbersome a lot of the time, and especially if you forget that you've, you
00:40:19
◼
►
previously selected this focal plane and I'm never going to change it unless you hit the
00:40:23
◼
►
back button again and you think, oh, you know, because you get used to just using the half
00:40:27
◼
►
The other way to solve this problem with lag or maybe the focus is to get a Sony camera
00:40:33
◼
►
or some other camera that has insanely good, really, really fast, really smart focus selection
00:40:39
◼
►
that's just been getting better and better over time.
00:40:40
◼
►
And to be fair, all camera manufacturers have been getting better and better.
00:40:43
◼
►
Sony used to have a huge lead and now it just has a smaller lead, but Sony still is a really
00:40:48
◼
►
good focusing system where it will...
00:40:50
◼
►
Like the reason you don't notice it on Sony is it's so fast.
00:40:53
◼
►
First of all, Sony lenses are very fast to physically focus, and second, the Sony image
00:40:58
◼
►
detection system is really good at finding the thing you want to focus on and tracking
00:41:02
◼
►
it and not getting distracted when something moves.
00:41:05
◼
►
So that's one of the advantages of the Sony cameras.
00:41:07
◼
►
But other ones have been catching up, and these types of settings are a good way to
00:41:10
◼
►
sort of shore up the minor inefficiencies as compared to the best of the best.
00:41:16
◼
►
Yeah, and in all fairness, as much as I love the Fuji color processing, they are not close
00:41:22
◼
►
to class leading with autofocus sophistication.
00:41:25
◼
►
That is one area where they are, I think,
00:41:27
◼
►
behind the competitors, and I think all their views
00:41:29
◼
►
agree with that.
00:41:30
◼
►
So I have noticed that it is not as smart
00:41:33
◼
►
as Sony's autofocus, but it's smart enough for me,
00:41:35
◼
►
and I'm loving the pictures that it's getting.
00:41:39
◼
►
If I was a sports photographer,
00:41:40
◼
►
I would definitely not use Fuji,
00:41:42
◼
►
but I would, but for taking pictures that I like a lot
00:41:46
◼
►
in other situations, it's proving to be fantastic.
00:41:49
◼
►
One thing I noticed as I was taking pictures
00:41:52
◼
►
with these cameras for the first time,
00:41:54
◼
►
like since using an iPhone,
00:41:56
◼
►
I missed the iPhone HDR photography.
00:42:00
◼
►
And I don't mean the,
00:42:03
◼
►
so cameras have caught up in a number of ways.
00:42:05
◼
►
So since I, the previous last camera I bought
00:42:10
◼
►
was the Sony A7R III, which is at this point
00:42:14
◼
►
probably something like five years old in that ballpark.
00:42:18
◼
►
And what, cameras have gotten really good at eating away
00:42:22
◼
►
some of the iPhone's advantages in the meantime.
00:42:24
◼
►
Not all of them, and they never will get all of them,
00:42:26
◼
►
but some of them.
00:42:27
◼
►
And one of the things is, you know,
00:42:29
◼
►
the iPhones have always been really, not always,
00:42:31
◼
►
but modern iPhones have always been really good
00:42:33
◼
►
at dealing with high dynamic range scenes.
00:42:36
◼
►
Scenes where you have something very bright,
00:42:38
◼
►
like maybe something, you know,
00:42:40
◼
►
water reflecting the sun, or the actual sun,
00:42:42
◼
►
or the moon, or something, you know, in your shot,
00:42:44
◼
►
something very bright, but you still wanna have detail
00:42:47
◼
►
in the darker shadow areas.
00:42:49
◼
►
So you have to have a lot of dynamic range in the image.
00:42:52
◼
►
And modern camera sensors in big cameras
00:42:55
◼
►
can capture that dynamic range very well.
00:42:57
◼
►
Modern camera sensors have incredible dynamic range,
00:43:00
◼
►
but usually where they lacked is in processing down
00:43:03
◼
►
the dynamic range to a useful photo
00:43:06
◼
►
that you would actually want and look good
00:43:08
◼
►
without losing all the details in the highlights
00:43:11
◼
►
or the shadows.
00:43:12
◼
►
And usually you had to shoot raw
00:43:14
◼
►
to really make the most of that.
00:43:16
◼
►
and I am so done shooting RAW,
00:43:18
◼
►
like the pictures are so huge and they break and everything
00:43:22
◼
►
and I'm just not,
00:43:23
◼
►
and that's for a more editing focused workflow
00:43:26
◼
►
than what I ever want.
00:43:27
◼
►
- You might be back to RAW eventually,
00:43:29
◼
►
but I think, so this is relevant to a link
00:43:32
◼
►
that we'll put in the show notes from PetaPixel
00:43:34
◼
►
that is actually from two days ago,
00:43:37
◼
►
where the headline is,
00:43:38
◼
►
Gen Z discovers modern digital cameras
00:43:40
◼
►
are better than iPhones.
00:43:41
◼
►
And it shows a bunch of pictures on like TikTok
00:43:43
◼
►
where they're like, look, you know,
00:43:45
◼
►
this person was sitting on the beach
00:43:47
◼
►
and we wanted to take a picture of them.
00:43:48
◼
►
Here's what it looks like on the iPhone.
00:43:49
◼
►
Here's what it looks like on a real camera.
00:43:50
◼
►
And there's situations in which the iPhone sensor
00:43:52
◼
►
is too small to gather enough light
00:43:54
◼
►
and the real camera is able to gather enough light
00:43:56
◼
►
to correctly expose the person, right?
00:43:57
◼
►
But a lot of these pictures,
00:43:59
◼
►
like, oh, look how dark everything is in the iPhone.
00:44:01
◼
►
I think they're terrible examples
00:44:03
◼
►
because what you just said is so true.
00:44:05
◼
►
Where the iPhone excels is not being good
00:44:07
◼
►
at low-light photography and that it gathers
00:44:09
◼
►
a lot of light on the sensor and can see in the dark.
00:44:12
◼
►
No, that's not why the iPhone photos come out well.
00:44:15
◼
►
They come out well because it does the high dynamic HDR
00:44:18
◼
►
photos, meaning, and we're setting aside
00:44:19
◼
►
what you're gonna get to eventually, right,
00:44:20
◼
►
with just the EDR stuff.
00:44:22
◼
►
But like, when the iPhone does high dynamic range,
00:44:26
◼
►
it does it in the same way that big cameras can do it,
00:44:29
◼
►
but it does it without involving the user at all.
00:44:32
◼
►
You just press the shutter button on the iPhone.
00:44:34
◼
►
And what the iPhone does, it's not like,
00:44:35
◼
►
oh, it processes its dynamic range better.
00:44:37
◼
►
It takes multiple exposures, right?
00:44:40
◼
►
It takes one underexposed.
00:44:42
◼
►
It takes one overexposed,
00:44:43
◼
►
I don't know how many exposures it takes,
00:44:44
◼
►
it takes at least two, maybe more,
00:44:46
◼
►
and it combines them.
00:44:48
◼
►
So it's not a single photo,
00:44:49
◼
►
'cause a single photo has crap dynamic range
00:44:51
◼
►
on a sensor that's like the size of the end
00:44:54
◼
►
of an eraser on a pencil, right?
00:44:57
◼
►
It's going through this tiny little lens,
00:44:58
◼
►
but this tiny little, it's just,
00:45:00
◼
►
there's not a lot of light there.
00:45:01
◼
►
So why do the iPhone cameras actually look better
00:45:04
◼
►
where the real camera breaks up?
00:45:05
◼
►
Because it takes multiple exposures and combines them.
00:45:08
◼
►
If you take a single exposure with a full-frame camera
00:45:11
◼
►
in a very challenging lighting situation,
00:45:13
◼
►
like a person with a bright sunset behind them,
00:45:16
◼
►
you can choose to expose, so the sunset is not blown out,
00:45:19
◼
►
and then the person is all dark.
00:45:21
◼
►
You can choose to expose the person,
00:45:22
◼
►
so their skin tone looks good,
00:45:24
◼
►
and then the sky behind them is blown out.
00:45:26
◼
►
With any single exposure, you can try to get as much,
00:45:29
◼
►
you know, big camera sensors have a lot of dynamic range,
00:45:31
◼
►
you can try to get a compromise between them,
00:45:33
◼
►
but in very challenging situation
00:45:34
◼
►
where there's a really bright light behind somebody,
00:45:38
◼
►
you can't have both.
00:45:39
◼
►
But big cameras can also take multiple exposures
00:45:42
◼
►
and try to combine them.
00:45:43
◼
►
They just, there's so much worse at it than phones, right?
00:45:46
◼
►
'Cause first of all, there's the contract
00:45:47
◼
►
when you're using a big camera,
00:45:48
◼
►
which is you press the shutter button,
00:45:50
◼
►
we do a single exposure.
00:45:52
◼
►
Oh, do you wanna do exposure bracketing?
00:45:53
◼
►
Well, that's a setting and you get to do it
00:45:55
◼
►
and maybe you wanna use electronic shutter
00:45:56
◼
►
or maybe we're gonna take multiple ones
00:45:57
◼
►
and I hope you don't shake the camera
00:45:58
◼
►
'cause our software is not very good
00:46:00
◼
►
at aligning the pictures and combining them.
00:46:01
◼
►
The iPhone totally wins there.
00:46:03
◼
►
So I feel like this PetaPixel article
00:46:05
◼
►
is showing a bunch of photos where I'm like,
00:46:07
◼
►
the iPhone probably would do better here
00:46:09
◼
►
unless you're in a situation that is within the realm
00:46:13
◼
►
of the dynamic range of a real camera.
00:46:15
◼
►
That you don't need, if you have a big sensor
00:46:17
◼
►
and a real camera, you don't need to do multiple exposures,
00:46:20
◼
►
whereas the iPhone does need to do multiple exposures
00:46:22
◼
►
and it ends up looking worse.
00:46:23
◼
►
And I guess that's what their examples are here.
00:46:24
◼
►
But I think, you know, you've said in the past, Mark,
00:46:26
◼
►
with iPhones are better at low light,
00:46:28
◼
►
and then we get all this feedback saying,
00:46:29
◼
►
are you crazy, iPhones aren't better at low light,
00:46:31
◼
►
they have a tiny sensor, they can't gather any light,
00:46:33
◼
►
or whatever, and it's like, no, they're not better,
00:46:36
◼
►
physically speaking, in terms of photons,
00:46:38
◼
►
But they're better because they take two or more exposures,
00:46:42
◼
►
I honestly don't know how many they take,
00:46:44
◼
►
and they find a way to combine them,
00:46:45
◼
►
even if your hand is shaking,
00:46:47
◼
►
even if the processing of the multiple exposures
00:46:50
◼
►
that they take exposing for the sky,
00:46:52
◼
►
exposing for the person's face, exposing for this,
00:46:54
◼
►
and then they do all this processing,
00:46:55
◼
►
and they mush it up into this thing that they call a photo,
00:46:57
◼
►
which is a combination of multiple photos,
00:47:00
◼
►
that's what they're better at.
00:47:01
◼
►
And big cameras can do that, but it's a setting,
00:47:04
◼
►
and you have to know how to use it,
00:47:05
◼
►
and they're still not as good at doing the combination
00:47:07
◼
►
of those exposures as Apple is,
00:47:10
◼
►
let alone doing them seamlessly
00:47:11
◼
►
when you just press a single shutter button.
00:47:12
◼
►
Maybe they'll get there someday,
00:47:13
◼
►
but I do kind of feel like there is that implied contract
00:47:16
◼
►
with the real camera, which is you press
00:47:18
◼
►
that shutter button once, we do one exposure.
00:47:20
◼
►
And if you want something different,
00:47:21
◼
►
you have to ask for it explicitly.
00:47:23
◼
►
- Well, and there actually, there is an HDR mode
00:47:25
◼
►
on the X-T5, I gotta see if the X100V has it.
00:47:29
◼
►
- But you're talking about multiple exposures,
00:47:31
◼
►
or you're talking about, oh, the thing
00:47:32
◼
►
where we add a brightness channel
00:47:33
◼
►
that shows the bright stuff brighter?
00:47:34
◼
►
- So there's multiple options.
00:47:36
◼
►
So there is the multiple exposure thing.
00:47:38
◼
►
You flip a knob over to HDR, it's right at your thumb,
00:47:41
◼
►
you hit the shutter and it goes buh buh buh,
00:47:43
◼
►
and it takes three pictures and it merges them
00:47:45
◼
►
and you get a JPEG out and it's done.
00:47:47
◼
►
That's, and that's using the exposure bracketing,
00:47:50
◼
►
one dark, one light, one medium,
00:47:52
◼
►
different settings for like how much range
00:47:54
◼
►
you wanna cover there, how much you wanna crush
00:47:56
◼
►
into the final picture.
00:47:57
◼
►
But then modern cameras also have usually some form
00:48:01
◼
►
of extended dynamic range shooting mode.
00:48:04
◼
►
So what this, and the various details of how they do this
00:48:08
◼
►
are, you know, they vary by manufacturer and everything.
00:48:11
◼
►
Some of them will have like dynamic range priority modes,
00:48:13
◼
►
but the idea basically is they use a larger range,
00:48:17
◼
►
like they capture a larger range than they normally would
00:48:20
◼
►
and then map that to like, you know,
00:48:22
◼
►
the zero to one color space, you know, for the JPEG.
00:48:25
◼
►
So what ends up happening is it looks, you know,
00:48:28
◼
►
if you've seen HDR pictures online,
00:48:31
◼
►
like they can look a little bit odd,
00:48:33
◼
►
like in terms of the contrast is maybe too low
00:48:36
◼
►
and everything kind of looks almost like a painting,
00:48:38
◼
►
like not texture-wise, but like color-wise.
00:48:40
◼
►
- Are you thinking, again,
00:48:41
◼
►
I feel like we need to distinguish,
00:48:42
◼
►
you're talking about HDR with multiple exposures?
00:48:45
◼
►
- No, one exposure.
00:48:46
◼
►
- All right, so then what you're talking about
00:48:47
◼
►
is if you take a photo with your iPhone, for example,
00:48:50
◼
►
of a sunset, you may notice that when you view that
00:48:52
◼
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on your iPhone with an HDR screen,
00:48:53
◼
►
that the sun looks brighter?
00:48:55
◼
►
- That's different.
00:48:55
◼
►
So there's three different things.
00:48:58
◼
►
I'm talking about extended dynamic range modes
00:49:00
◼
►
on big cameras where they kind of,
00:49:03
◼
►
they use the range they have differently.
00:49:06
◼
►
They map it differently to capture more range
00:49:09
◼
►
at the expense of usually contrast and possibly noise.
00:49:14
◼
►
Because they kind of like shoot at a higher ISO
00:49:16
◼
►
than they would need to and then kind of capture.
00:49:20
◼
►
I don't know the details of how it works.
00:49:22
◼
►
- Speaking of details, I should find this in a show
00:49:23
◼
►
that's on a future show.
00:49:24
◼
►
I actually had it in the notes.
00:49:25
◼
►
I learned something recently.
00:49:27
◼
►
We were watching a video about Sony cameras,
00:49:28
◼
►
ISO in particular.
00:49:29
◼
►
you probably already knew this and maybe we've mentioned on a past show but if we did I totally
00:49:33
◼
►
forgot it, that Sony's sensors on their cameras have two different capture modes essentially
00:49:39
◼
►
depending on what ISO level they're at.
00:49:41
◼
►
There's like a low sensitivity one and a high sensitivity one and when you cross an ISO
00:49:44
◼
►
threshold which differs from camera to camera it kicks into the other mode which I had no
00:49:50
◼
►
idea about but it explains so much.
00:49:52
◼
►
If you look at the test results you can see I can see and on this camera an ISO 400 is
00:49:55
◼
►
switches to the other thing which is, you know, it's a trade-off between dynamic range
00:49:59
◼
►
and noise and stuff like that, but it's something that Sony doesn't really mention because they
00:50:04
◼
►
don't consider it to be a feature that you can count on.
00:50:08
◼
►
I forget what the term of art is, but their video cameras do it explicitly and they only
00:50:14
◼
►
talk about it there because the video cameras are able to be equally good in both of the
00:50:17
◼
►
ranges, but it explains a lot if you have a Sony camera of like, "Why, when I was cranking
00:50:22
◼
►
up the ISO, everything kept looking worse and worse until I crossed the threshold and
00:50:25
◼
►
and all of a sudden it got better
00:50:26
◼
►
and then started on a whole new curve.
00:50:28
◼
►
It's because these sensors have two different modes.
00:50:30
◼
►
It makes sense when you see the underlying stuff.
00:50:31
◼
►
I'll try to find it for a future episode,
00:50:33
◼
►
or maybe even for this one, but it was fascinating.
00:50:35
◼
►
And that's the type of technical detail
00:50:37
◼
►
that is buried inside your cameras
00:50:39
◼
►
that is good to know because on a real camera,
00:50:42
◼
►
you have control over that stuff.
00:50:43
◼
►
On the iPhone, even if you're using a third-party camera app
00:50:46
◼
►
and tweaking all the settings, not quite as much control.
00:50:50
◼
►
And so rounding out the dynamic range topic,
00:50:53
◼
►
One of the things I missed also was
00:50:56
◼
►
what John said a minute ago.
00:50:57
◼
►
When you take a picture with a modern iPhone
00:51:01
◼
►
of a high dynamic range environment
00:51:04
◼
►
like there's a sunset or something,
00:51:06
◼
►
you notice when you view it,
00:51:08
◼
►
it cranks the brightness up way past normal
00:51:11
◼
►
pure white brightness levels
00:51:13
◼
►
for those parts of the photo that are super bright
00:51:15
◼
►
like the tips of the waves, the sun,
00:51:17
◼
►
the light in the background, the moon, whatever it is.
00:51:20
◼
►
Those get higher brightness levels.
00:51:22
◼
►
Same thing happens on any kind of modern Mac with,
00:51:26
◼
►
do they call them EDR or HDR for the screens?
00:51:28
◼
►
They call them XDR.
00:51:30
◼
►
- EDR I think is what they call the technology of,
00:51:32
◼
►
hey, we're gonna show your screen the way we normally did,
00:51:34
◼
►
but if you show one of those photos
00:51:36
◼
►
that was taken how you describe,
00:51:38
◼
►
we will also show that on the same screen
00:51:40
◼
►
without changing your display mode or anything like that.
00:51:43
◼
►
That's the EDR, it's like the ability
00:51:44
◼
►
to combine regular dynamic range,
00:51:47
◼
►
your windows and webpages and stuff like that.
00:51:49
◼
►
But oh, here this little square of it
00:51:51
◼
►
is high dynamic range, just that little square.
00:51:54
◼
►
We've talked about it before with the aerial screensaver,
00:51:56
◼
►
when you show a preview of it in system settings
00:51:58
◼
►
or whatever, that it's like this little tiny window
00:52:00
◼
►
that's suddenly HDR, but the whole rest
00:52:01
◼
►
of your screen is normal.
00:52:03
◼
►
- I was wondering, well, if I'm using a camera
00:52:05
◼
►
that can capture all this dynamic range,
00:52:08
◼
►
how can I get my pictures to render in that mode
00:52:11
◼
►
on my Pro Display XDR and my MacBook Pro?
00:52:14
◼
►
It's obviously just some kind of metadata somewhere,
00:52:16
◼
►
like how do I set that?
00:52:17
◼
►
So I was looking for an app that can do this,
00:52:19
◼
►
I can be like, all right, take this photo from my camera,
00:52:22
◼
►
turn on EDR display mode for it,
00:52:25
◼
►
and then let me map in the image,
00:52:27
◼
►
like all right, what levels correspond to what?
00:52:30
◼
►
So, you know, 'cause what EDR, the way EDR works,
00:52:33
◼
►
basically, if your regular screen brightness
00:52:35
◼
►
is like 0.0 to 1.0, EDR would be like,
00:52:39
◼
►
all right, in this photo, we have some areas
00:52:41
◼
►
that are 1.5 bright, so, you know,
00:52:43
◼
►
map what the photo has from, you know,
00:52:46
◼
►
zero to one, map it really to zero to 1.5
00:52:50
◼
►
and show that that will end the screen.
00:52:51
◼
►
So there's a way you can map the brightness levels
00:52:55
◼
►
and the tone levels from the picture
00:52:57
◼
►
onto a different range for display on the screen.
00:53:00
◼
►
- Did you look up how the iPhone does this?
00:53:03
◼
►
- No, I didn't have time for that.
00:53:04
◼
►
- So I believe my vague recollection
00:53:08
◼
►
is that the way Apple decided to do
00:53:10
◼
►
exactly what you're describing,
00:53:11
◼
►
they wanted to do it in a way so that when you share
00:53:14
◼
►
that photo with somebody who doesn't have an HDR screen,
00:53:16
◼
►
like they just have a regular, they have a MacBook Air
00:53:18
◼
►
or they have an iMac 24 inch or something like that
00:53:21
◼
►
and they don't have an HDR screen,
00:53:22
◼
►
that it still looks normal to them,
00:53:23
◼
►
like that nothing goes wonky.
00:53:25
◼
►
So my vague recollection is that what Apple did is,
00:53:28
◼
►
it's, you know, the JPEG or whatever the Heeck image is,
00:53:31
◼
►
just the regular dynamic range.
00:53:33
◼
►
And then there's a separate, sort of a separate channel
00:53:36
◼
►
that's like the brightness enhancing channel.
00:53:38
◼
►
- Oh yeah. - And non HDR screens
00:53:40
◼
►
will just ignore that channel and just show it normal.
00:53:42
◼
►
But if you have an HDR screen,
00:53:43
◼
►
it takes like the brightness channel and smooshes it together with the picture and then produces
00:53:49
◼
►
What you're describing sounds more like you've got the image data and then you're
00:53:52
◼
►
just like telling it to reinterpret it.
00:53:54
◼
►
But I do wonder if the Fuji thing is doing the, you know, separating the brightness channel
00:53:59
◼
►
from the regular image for back-up compatibility reasons or if it's really just like baking
00:54:03
◼
►
it into the photo and then just reinterpreting it according to some flag that says, "Hey,
00:54:07
◼
►
when you look at this thing, interpret it this way."
00:54:08
◼
►
- Well, so as far as I can tell,
00:54:10
◼
►
I don't think any modern standalone cameras shoot that way.
00:54:14
◼
►
With whatever that metadata is
00:54:16
◼
►
that makes Apple display them super bright,
00:54:18
◼
►
I don't think any modern cameras do that.
00:54:20
◼
►
So I was wondering, how can I apply that in editing?
00:54:24
◼
►
Is there some app that can toggle that flag
00:54:26
◼
►
and generate that brightness data for my pictures?
00:54:29
◼
►
And I looked around, so I have Pixelmator.
00:54:33
◼
►
So Pixelmator on the Mac can do it.
00:54:36
◼
►
If you go to the color adjustment section,
00:54:38
◼
►
hit customize, you can add an EDR toggle.
00:54:41
◼
►
The problem is this only works for raw files,
00:54:43
◼
►
as far as I can tell.
00:54:44
◼
►
And it seems like the X-T5 raw files
00:54:48
◼
►
are supported by nothing right now.
00:54:50
◼
►
Including, not Pixelmator, not Mac photos,
00:54:53
◼
►
like nothing seems to support the X-T5 raw files,
00:54:56
◼
►
even though this camera came out like last fall, I think.
00:54:59
◼
►
It's not super new, but anyway.
00:55:01
◼
►
Pixelmator on the Mac can do it only for raw files.
00:55:04
◼
►
Pixelmator Photo is their iOS app.
00:55:07
◼
►
This can do it for all files.
00:55:09
◼
►
If you go to the adjustment sliders,
00:55:11
◼
►
hit the ellipsis menu, and then there's an option
00:55:14
◼
►
that says turn on EDR.
00:55:16
◼
►
So that's what this, it's called EDR in Pixelmator,
00:55:19
◼
►
and so that's what you wanna turn on
00:55:20
◼
►
if you wanna play with this.
00:55:21
◼
►
I separately found an app called Radiance Plus,
00:55:25
◼
►
I'll link to it, it's three bucks a month
00:55:28
◼
►
or 30 bucks lifetime, and I converted two photos with it
00:55:32
◼
►
and instantly paid the 30 buck lifetime fee.
00:55:35
◼
►
It's a very, very simple app.
00:55:37
◼
►
It just has like two sliders, it's like brightness
00:55:39
◼
►
and strength or something like that.
00:55:41
◼
►
I converted these two pictures I had taken
00:55:43
◼
►
with the Fuji X100V, they look awesome.
00:55:47
◼
►
And these pictures were awesome by themselves
00:55:49
◼
►
like before I did this, but they're even more awesome
00:55:52
◼
►
when I added this flag.
00:55:54
◼
►
It much better captures the actual range
00:55:56
◼
►
that the scene actually looked like.
00:55:58
◼
►
And I'm very, very happy that I can basically
00:56:00
◼
►
take awesome camera input and make them look
00:56:04
◼
►
as nice as the iPhone photos do in this particular way.
00:56:07
◼
►
And then that syncs, I added them to my library,
00:56:10
◼
►
like it works in your photo library,
00:56:11
◼
►
and so now those show up on all my devices
00:56:14
◼
►
in that cool EDR mode and it looks great.
00:56:17
◼
►
So I will link to these apps in the show notes.
00:56:19
◼
►
If you wanna do it, I strongly recommend
00:56:21
◼
►
giving these apps a try.
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While I was doing all this, I was in camera mode,
00:58:25
◼
►
and so one of the most common times that we use
00:58:30
◼
►
big cameras in our household is we can occasionally see
00:58:34
◼
►
some wildlife from our deck of our house.
00:58:38
◼
►
And so I wanted something that had a big zoom.
00:58:41
◼
►
And I gave Tiff as a gift a couple years ago,
00:58:45
◼
►
I gave her a super zoom lens for our Sony.
00:58:50
◼
►
The 200 to 600 millimeter Sony zoom with a 2X teleconverter
00:58:55
◼
►
so that it reaches to 1200 millimeters.
00:58:57
◼
►
It's a very far reach.
00:58:58
◼
►
We've tried to shoot with this a lot.
00:59:00
◼
►
we haven't had great success with it,
00:59:03
◼
►
in part because it's just not a very sharp lens.
00:59:06
◼
►
And so we've gotten some pictures
00:59:09
◼
►
that just were very soft and very low contrast.
00:59:13
◼
►
And I thought at first maybe that's just the teleconverter.
00:59:15
◼
►
So I took the teleconverter off,
00:59:16
◼
►
less reach, faster, et cetera,
00:59:19
◼
►
and it just still was not very good.
00:59:20
◼
►
And some of it is just distance.
00:59:23
◼
►
If we're taking pictures of something
00:59:24
◼
►
that's like very, very far away,
00:59:28
◼
►
the atmospheric haze, the water vapor in the air,
00:59:31
◼
►
like it just makes it hard to capture anything very sharp
00:59:34
◼
►
at a very great distance because that's just how air works
00:59:38
◼
►
and you can't really get around that.
00:59:40
◼
►
You can put a UV filter on it and everything,
00:59:43
◼
►
that doesn't really do much.
00:59:44
◼
►
It's not really, you're dealing with the atmosphere.
00:59:47
◼
►
So there's only so much you can do.
00:59:50
◼
►
But I was curious, now that I was in the Fuji system,
00:59:54
◼
►
Fuji has a similar reach lens.
00:59:57
◼
►
I also know that there's this whole category of super zoom cameras.
01:00:01
◼
►
And I had never tried one before.
01:00:02
◼
►
I know Jon has occasionally tried things like this, right?
01:00:05
◼
►
Yeah, before I got interchangeable lens cameras, I went from like little handheld, like, you
01:00:09
◼
►
know, point and shoot type things, which are my first digital cameras, to super zoom, which
01:00:14
◼
►
I used for many years, because what you get with the super zoom, I remember I was taking
01:00:18
◼
►
pictures of my kids playing in the waves in the water, is you get a really good quality,
01:00:23
◼
►
incredibly long zoom lens for the price of never being able to take it off your camera,
01:00:27
◼
►
it's not an interchangeable lens camera. It is a camera, it comes with this built in,
01:00:30
◼
►
and it is what it is. And I was able to get, I think my last one that I got was like,
01:00:33
◼
►
it was like a, you know, a 2.8 aperture through the entire zoom range, which is absolutely
01:00:39
◼
►
unheard of unless you're willing to spend like thousands of dollars on a like interchangeable
01:00:43
◼
►
lens zoom thing. Because normally, you're lucky if the lowest end of the zoom range is, you know,
01:00:48
◼
►
f/2.8. Usually it starts off much worse than that and gets worse as you zoom. But I was able to get,
01:00:53
◼
►
for a very low price, a tiny sensor in a not very good camera, but it comes built in with
01:01:00
◼
►
a extremely long zoom that's f/2.8 through the whole aperture range.
01:01:05
◼
►
If I had to try to get that in a "real camera" equivalent, it would have cost thousands of
01:01:10
◼
►
dollars more.
01:01:12
◼
►
I endorse that type of camera and they're really cool, but of course that's all you're
01:01:17
◼
►
You can't put a prime lens on it.
01:01:20
◼
►
the sensors tend not to be very big,
01:01:22
◼
►
or if you do get one with a big sensor or whatever,
01:01:24
◼
►
then those also cost thousands of dollars.
01:01:26
◼
►
But it is a very inexpensive way
01:01:29
◼
►
to get a really good quality, really long zoom,
01:01:32
◼
►
as long as you're okay with that being
01:01:33
◼
►
the only thing this camera can do.
01:01:35
◼
►
- Yeah, and usually, there's other compromises.
01:01:39
◼
►
It might not have the best optical quality.
01:01:41
◼
►
Usually the sensor is substantially smaller
01:01:44
◼
►
than you would get in a big camera.
01:01:46
◼
►
Resolution's usually not as good.
01:01:47
◼
►
It doesn't have as many pro features.
01:01:49
◼
►
There's other downsides to it, but overall,
01:01:53
◼
►
it's, you know, super zooms can be pretty good.
01:01:55
◼
►
And so I was curious--
01:01:56
◼
►
- And also, the super zooms are almost always
01:02:00
◼
►
way, way, way smaller than an equivalent focal length range
01:02:04
◼
►
would be on like a full frame camera or something.
01:02:06
◼
►
Like smaller, lighter, like, some of them are comical,
01:02:08
◼
►
like you put this picture up.
01:02:10
◼
►
Some of the biggest super zooms do get comical,
01:02:11
◼
►
but they're still smaller.
01:02:13
◼
►
They're still smaller than if you were to get
01:02:15
◼
►
that same focal length.
01:02:17
◼
►
Smaller, lighter, if you get the same focal length
01:02:19
◼
►
interchangeable lens.
01:02:20
◼
►
So it is, I love that category 'cause it's like,
01:02:23
◼
►
we're gonna make compromises for the sake of
01:02:26
◼
►
having really good zoom and not being so big
01:02:29
◼
►
that you need like an extra person to hold
01:02:31
◼
►
the front of the lens up for you.
01:02:32
◼
►
- Yeah, so here, I just pasted this link,
01:02:34
◼
►
I'll make this the image of the chapter art.
01:02:36
◼
►
This is all the different cameras.
01:02:38
◼
►
And so I don't own most of these.
01:02:40
◼
►
I went to lens rentals and I rented
01:02:43
◼
►
a whole bunch of stuff from them.
01:02:44
◼
►
'Cause I'm like, I wanna try out modern super zooms
01:02:47
◼
►
to see how good are they, how do they compare
01:02:50
◼
►
to the Sony Super Zoom that we have,
01:02:52
◼
►
and do I want to maybe sell the Sony thing
01:02:55
◼
►
and buy something else?
01:02:57
◼
►
- And by the way, are you calling a Sony thing a Super Zoom?
01:02:59
◼
►
I think Super Zoom only applies to the cameras
01:03:01
◼
►
that don't have interchangeable lenses
01:03:03
◼
►
and have really long zoom. - You're right.
01:03:04
◼
►
No, I know, I'm the only person,
01:03:05
◼
►
I'm just talking about a giant telephoto lens.
01:03:07
◼
►
- Yes, exactly.
01:03:08
◼
►
- I consider the combined unit of the camera
01:03:12
◼
►
and the giant telephoto lens, I will call that a Super Zoom.
01:03:14
◼
►
I know it's technically not,
01:03:15
◼
►
There's other things in here that also aren't super zooms,
01:03:17
◼
►
but I'll explain why in a minute.
01:03:19
◼
►
But anyway, so I decided to rent all this stuff
01:03:21
◼
►
to see how do I like modern long reach camera options?
01:03:26
◼
►
How do they compare to my giant Sony full frame,
01:03:31
◼
►
600 millimeter telephoto?
01:03:32
◼
►
Like how does all this stuff compare
01:03:34
◼
►
and maybe does something else fit my needs better?
01:03:36
◼
►
Maybe I could trade the Sony for it
01:03:39
◼
►
with B&H or something like that.
01:03:40
◼
►
So anyway, I rent all this stuff from Lensrentals.
01:03:42
◼
►
They were great as usual.
01:03:43
◼
►
I also wanted to try with all,
01:03:46
◼
►
so I rented what seemed to be, according to DP Review,
01:03:50
◼
►
which is, I've been on that site so much recently
01:03:52
◼
►
and I'm still so sad it's going away.
01:03:55
◼
►
I went to their reviews and ratings and everything
01:03:58
◼
►
and did some research and found it seemed like
01:04:00
◼
►
the two generally best regarded super zooms right now
01:04:04
◼
►
are the Sony RX10 Mark IV
01:04:08
◼
►
and the Nikon Coolpix P1000.
01:04:12
◼
►
The Nikon's about a thousand bucks,
01:04:13
◼
►
the Sony RX10s almost 2,000,
01:04:16
◼
►
so it's a pretty big price difference.
01:04:18
◼
►
The Sony only, quote, only,
01:04:21
◼
►
goes to an equivalent of 600 millimeters.
01:04:23
◼
►
So it's not a massive reach,
01:04:26
◼
►
but that is still pretty far,
01:04:29
◼
►
especially for something that is as small as it is.
01:04:32
◼
►
And if you look at this picture
01:04:33
◼
►
of the overview of all these cameras,
01:04:34
◼
►
the Sony RX10 is the one in the bottom left corner.
01:04:39
◼
►
And you can see it is way smaller
01:04:42
◼
►
than the telephoto cameras, than the full frame telephotos.
01:04:46
◼
►
And it's even significantly smaller
01:04:47
◼
►
than the next one to its right.
01:04:49
◼
►
That other black camera is the Nikon P1000.
01:04:52
◼
►
But the P1000 doesn't just go to 600 millimeters.
01:04:56
◼
►
It goes to 3000 millimeters.
01:04:59
◼
►
- I also wanna point out,
01:05:00
◼
►
and if you're looking at this photo, which you should be,
01:05:02
◼
►
it'll be the chapter art
01:05:03
◼
►
and it'll probably also be in the show notes,
01:05:05
◼
►
that when Margot says the one in the lower left corner
01:05:07
◼
►
goes to 600 millimeters,
01:05:09
◼
►
that's how far at least one of the white ones
01:05:11
◼
►
on the right goes. - Yes, the one on the far right
01:05:14
◼
►
is the same. - Goodness.
01:05:15
◼
►
- Yeah, the far right lens has the same zoom distance
01:05:18
◼
►
as the far left camera.
01:05:20
◼
►
So when we say you save size and weight
01:05:22
◼
►
by going with the super zoom, this is what we mean.
01:05:24
◼
►
- Yeah, and in all fairness, I did have the lens hoods
01:05:26
◼
►
attached to everything. - But you should.
01:05:30
◼
►
There's a lens hood on the one on the left too.
01:05:31
◼
►
- Yes, and you really should for, you know,
01:05:33
◼
►
when you're trying to minimize, you know,
01:05:35
◼
►
any kind of thing that could cause haziness
01:05:37
◼
►
and trying to maximize contrast,
01:05:39
◼
►
you want the lens hoods on.
01:05:40
◼
►
- I think the lens hood on the camera on the right
01:05:42
◼
►
is bigger than the entire camera on the left.
01:05:45
◼
►
- I think you're right.
01:05:48
◼
►
And I also, you'll note right above the Nikon P1000
01:05:52
◼
►
is a little tiny black camera.
01:05:53
◼
►
That is the Sony RX100 Mark VII.
01:05:58
◼
►
This is not a super zoom,
01:06:01
◼
►
but the reason I rented the RX100,
01:06:03
◼
►
first of all it's very inexpensive to rent.
01:06:05
◼
►
I'm like I'm already renting all this other stuff,
01:06:06
◼
►
let me throw this in too, I wanted to try it.
01:06:09
◼
►
The RX100 series, I first got one,
01:06:13
◼
►
I first rented it from Lens Rentals actually,
01:06:15
◼
►
back in 2013 I rented the very first one.
01:06:19
◼
►
And now they're on Mark 7.
01:06:21
◼
►
Unfortunately Mark 7 seems to be,
01:06:23
◼
►
this might be the last one.
01:06:24
◼
►
Like they released this Mark 7 in 2019
01:06:29
◼
►
and there's been like nothing on that front since.
01:06:32
◼
►
But what's interesting about it
01:06:33
◼
►
is that it's kind of pocketable,
01:06:35
◼
►
not really, you know,
01:06:38
◼
►
you wouldn't want this in your pocket.
01:06:39
◼
►
A jacket pocket you could do.
01:06:41
◼
►
Definitely not like a pants or other clothing pocket.
01:06:44
◼
►
You could easily put it in any,
01:06:45
◼
►
pretty much any size bag and larger jackets.
01:06:50
◼
►
I was interested in the RS100, the new one,
01:06:52
◼
►
because I had heard it had gotten a lot better
01:06:54
◼
►
since the one I had tried in 2013.
01:06:55
◼
►
And the one in 2013 was pretty underwhelming
01:06:58
◼
►
in terms of image quality.
01:06:59
◼
►
It is, the RS100 series is very small
01:07:04
◼
►
and it has a zoom range of 24 to 200 equivalent.
01:07:08
◼
►
So I thought that's really interesting to be in that size.
01:07:11
◼
►
How good could the optics possibly be in that?
01:07:14
◼
►
And I saw sample pictures on dpreview.com
01:07:16
◼
►
and I was like, that seems impossible.
01:07:19
◼
►
They look pretty good for a camera that's that size,
01:07:22
◼
►
has like a little, I think it's like a one inch sensor,
01:07:24
◼
►
like a little, still bigger than a phone by a mile,
01:07:27
◼
►
but still a small sensor for a standalone camera
01:07:30
◼
►
and these little tiny optics that go to 200 millimeter,
01:07:33
◼
►
how good could that possibly be?
01:07:35
◼
►
But the reviews were stellar.
01:07:36
◼
►
So I thought, let me rent this thing.
01:07:38
◼
►
You know, I think it was like 60 bucks to rent.
01:07:39
◼
►
I'm like, fine, let me rent it, I wanna try this.
01:07:41
◼
►
Where big cameras can still very much shine
01:07:43
◼
►
is areas that the iPhone really cannot compete in.
01:07:46
◼
►
And one of those areas is long reach.
01:07:49
◼
►
Now we will see, I know this fall,
01:07:51
◼
►
there's the rumors of the Pro Max phone
01:07:54
◼
►
having the periscope arrangement of its optics,
01:07:57
◼
►
which would almost certainly result
01:07:59
◼
►
in a much better zoom reach.
01:08:01
◼
►
but I would be surprised if it was competitive
01:08:04
◼
►
with anything else here, frankly.
01:08:06
◼
►
So anyway, I decided, let me see something
01:08:10
◼
►
that is approximately pocketable-ish, almost size class.
01:08:15
◼
►
Let me see its reach as a competitor to a phone.
01:08:19
◼
►
I was thinking, if I really love this little tiny
01:08:21
◼
►
Sony camera, maybe I would buy one
01:08:22
◼
►
and just kinda keep it in my backpack wherever I go
01:08:25
◼
►
and occasionally use it, because that can cover roles
01:08:28
◼
►
that the iPhone really can't cover,
01:08:30
◼
►
and sometimes I want that.
01:08:32
◼
►
So anyway, I rented all this stuff,
01:08:34
◼
►
and I tried it all out,
01:08:35
◼
►
and I made a little sample gallery,
01:08:37
◼
►
I will link to that in the show notes as well.
01:08:39
◼
►
Found out a couple of, I think, useful comparison points.
01:08:43
◼
►
I'll try to be quick, I know it's not super entertaining
01:08:46
◼
►
listening to a podcast about photos,
01:08:49
◼
►
but I'll try to be quick.
01:08:51
◼
►
What surprised me the most,
01:08:52
◼
►
so I took, I went outside,
01:08:54
◼
►
and I tried to take the same approximate set of pictures
01:08:58
◼
►
with all of these cameras,
01:09:00
◼
►
at when possible at the same focal lengths
01:09:03
◼
►
and just kinda compare to see how are they in handling,
01:09:07
◼
►
what kind of quality am I getting,
01:09:08
◼
►
what kind of sharpness and stabilization can I get
01:09:12
◼
►
at the long reaches,
01:09:13
◼
►
and how do the pictures end up looking.
01:09:16
◼
►
And number one thing I noticed was,
01:09:18
◼
►
wow, the iPhone really sucks.
01:09:20
◼
►
I've thought for a while, wow, the iPhone
01:09:23
◼
►
is an amazing camera, but it's not an amazing camera
01:09:27
◼
►
when you want reach.
01:09:28
◼
►
The 3X lens on the iPhone 14 Pro
01:09:30
◼
►
that I was using for these comparisons, sucks.
01:09:34
◼
►
I have noticed so far this year of using this phone,
01:09:37
◼
►
the amount of over-processing and over-sharpening
01:09:41
◼
►
is kind of irritating to me a lot of the time.
01:09:44
◼
►
Not every time, I still get a lot of good photos with it,
01:09:46
◼
►
and it's still gonna be the camera that I use
01:09:48
◼
►
by far the most 'cause it's always in my pocket,
01:09:49
◼
►
but the amount of processing that it does
01:09:53
◼
►
is a little off-putting.
01:09:56
◼
►
And so I might try to experiment with apps like Halide
01:09:59
◼
►
to see maybe if I do more manual control,
01:10:02
◼
►
maybe I can get a better balance that I like more.
01:10:05
◼
►
But I am not super thrilled
01:10:09
◼
►
with the iPhone 14 Pro's camera system
01:10:11
◼
►
in the sense that I have tried to make it replace
01:10:15
◼
►
a big camera and at first I thought it really could.
01:10:18
◼
►
And now I see it really can't.
01:10:20
◼
►
It does really well for what it is.
01:10:23
◼
►
But at the end of the day,
01:10:24
◼
►
it is still a tiny little sensor with tiny little optics
01:10:27
◼
►
that have to cost probably like 40 or 50 bucks.
01:10:29
◼
►
And so there's gonna be a lot of limitations there
01:10:32
◼
►
for physics, for components, for quality,
01:10:34
◼
►
like there's so much that's limiting it.
01:10:37
◼
►
And it makes up for a lot of that with its smarts
01:10:39
◼
►
and its various processing and intelligence
01:10:41
◼
►
and what it does with that sensor
01:10:43
◼
►
and how it dumps data off and how it deals with everything.
01:10:45
◼
►
There's a lot of intelligence there
01:10:46
◼
►
and it really is incredible for what it is.
01:10:50
◼
►
But there's a lot more out there.
01:10:53
◼
►
And so what this experiment has taught me is
01:10:57
◼
►
there's still a place in my life for other cameras.
01:11:00
◼
►
So anyway, I took pictures of far away objects
01:11:05
◼
►
with all these cameras, including the iPhone
01:11:07
◼
►
and the RX100. (laughs)
01:11:09
◼
►
And the iPhone, I showed the regular 3X resolution,
01:11:13
◼
►
the regular 3X perspective, and I zoomed it all the way in
01:11:16
◼
►
with the digital zoom just so you could see
01:11:17
◼
►
what that looks like.
01:11:19
◼
►
It's not good.
01:11:20
◼
►
I would not recommend using the digital zoom
01:11:22
◼
►
for anything, but it's there, so you can compare.
01:11:26
◼
►
And what I was, so first of all, I was very, very impressed
01:11:31
◼
►
with the little Sony RX100.
01:11:34
◼
►
If you look at the pictures it got,
01:11:36
◼
►
it blows away the iPhone for reach,
01:11:40
◼
►
and it's really not bad.
01:11:42
◼
►
It's not great, and I think I've decided for the moment
01:11:46
◼
►
not to buy one, and it also doesn't have USB-C,
01:11:49
◼
►
'cause it's so old. (laughs)
01:11:51
◼
►
But anyway, it's not an amazing optical quality.
01:11:54
◼
►
But for its size, it's fantastic.
01:11:57
◼
►
And I could very easily see at some point
01:11:59
◼
►
me justifying the plan of just keeping one
01:12:02
◼
►
on my backpack all the time.
01:12:03
◼
►
Because it really is an incredibly versatile camera.
01:12:07
◼
►
It even has my favorite part about the RX100,
01:12:10
◼
►
is it has this cute little pop-up viewfinder.
01:12:14
◼
►
You hit this little tab on its side,
01:12:16
◼
►
and this little tiny cube goes pop,
01:12:19
◼
►
And it pops up this little,
01:12:21
◼
►
it's the cutest little viewfinder.
01:12:23
◼
►
And it works, I usually, you know,
01:12:24
◼
►
I use it outside because it's so bright.
01:12:26
◼
►
It works, like, it was great.
01:12:28
◼
►
Anyway, it's an adorable camera.
01:12:32
◼
►
It is not something I wanna ever put in a pocket.
01:12:35
◼
►
It is something I would occasionally carry in a jacket
01:12:38
◼
►
and I would very much carry in a backpack
01:12:39
◼
►
if I had more frequent needs like that
01:12:41
◼
►
because they really just cover a lot
01:12:42
◼
►
that the iPhone doesn't cover.
01:12:44
◼
►
And for what it is and for its size,
01:12:47
◼
►
I'm extremely impressed by the RX100 VII.
01:12:51
◼
►
All right, moving on.
01:12:52
◼
►
In rough order of price, the Nikon Coolpix 1000,
01:12:57
◼
►
this is the one that can go to 3000 millimeter equivalent.
01:13:00
◼
►
It does that by using a much smaller sensor.
01:13:03
◼
►
You'll even notice its pictures are four by three,
01:13:06
◼
►
not three by two, the way most cameras are,
01:13:08
◼
►
because it's basically a phone sensor,
01:13:10
◼
►
as far as I can tell.
01:13:12
◼
►
The review's gonna say that I'm like,
01:13:13
◼
►
"Hmm, that's interesting."
01:13:14
◼
►
And then I notice it shoots natively in four by three,
01:13:16
◼
►
So it's like, oh, maybe there's something to that.
01:13:19
◼
►
But anyway, 3000 millimeter equivalent
01:13:22
◼
►
is kind of hilarious.
01:13:26
◼
►
It is also kind of like the iPhone digital zoom,
01:13:29
◼
►
not especially useful.
01:13:31
◼
►
'Cause the problem is, when you get to 3000 millimeters,
01:13:34
◼
►
when you're like, you know, in that kind of range,
01:13:37
◼
►
stabilization becomes extremely difficult.
01:13:40
◼
►
Like I was standing on a deck,
01:13:43
◼
►
And even if I put it on a tripod,
01:13:47
◼
►
the vibrations of the deck from wind,
01:13:50
◼
►
so from like a slight breeze,
01:13:52
◼
►
were making it jiggle visibly.
01:13:54
◼
►
And so even to get these pictures,
01:13:56
◼
►
I had to have the shutter speed way up,
01:13:58
◼
►
like 2,500th of a second,
01:14:00
◼
►
way, way up, super fast shutter,
01:14:03
◼
►
right in the middle of the day,
01:14:04
◼
►
just so I could get some kind of sharpness in these pictures.
01:14:08
◼
►
Most of the pictures I shot at those far reaches
01:14:10
◼
►
were totally blurry and unusable.
01:14:13
◼
►
These that I got in my sample gallery
01:14:15
◼
►
were the best ones that I shot,
01:14:17
◼
►
and I did everything I could to make that happen.
01:14:20
◼
►
I shot it also at 600 millimeters,
01:14:23
◼
►
just so you kinda see how does that look
01:14:25
◼
►
compared to the other ones,
01:14:25
◼
►
and it's fine when you're zoomed out.
01:14:29
◼
►
If you're not looking too closely at the pixels,
01:14:31
◼
►
if you look too closely at the pixels, it's a mess,
01:14:34
◼
►
even at 600 millimeters, and it gets way worse at 3,000.
01:14:38
◼
►
When you zoom in, it's a mess.
01:14:40
◼
►
It is not good.
01:14:41
◼
►
So the P1000, I think it's a fun novelty,
01:14:45
◼
►
but ultimately it's very hard to get good pictures out of it
01:14:49
◼
►
even when you do, it's just not a very sophisticated sensor
01:14:52
◼
►
in there and I found the stabilization,
01:14:56
◼
►
even the stabilization at 600 millimeters
01:15:00
◼
►
was not as good as the other cameras and lenses
01:15:03
◼
►
at that same length.
01:15:04
◼
►
So it's not a very good stabilizer
01:15:06
◼
►
and it's a very like plasticy, like kind of light,
01:15:08
◼
►
cheap kind of feeling camera.
01:15:10
◼
►
It's a fun novelty to rent,
01:15:12
◼
►
but I was not impressed by it, honestly.
01:15:14
◼
►
- And this looks big.
01:15:15
◼
►
This is not the bottom left,
01:15:17
◼
►
but the one directly to the right of it, correct?
01:15:19
◼
►
- Correct, yeah.
01:15:20
◼
►
And it goes to, when you turn,
01:15:22
◼
►
so those cameras, that's in their off position.
01:15:24
◼
►
When you turn them on and when you zoom in,
01:15:26
◼
►
the lens sticks out like a Pringles can at the front.
01:15:29
◼
►
Like it extends outward.
01:15:30
◼
►
It looks really hilarious.
01:15:32
◼
►
Like it looks ridiculous.
01:15:35
◼
►
But it was, you know, it, anyway,
01:15:38
◼
►
This is not their fully activated state.
01:15:42
◼
►
So anyway, moving on.
01:15:43
◼
►
- The reason I bring that up is only because
01:15:46
◼
►
it's not like you can shrug this off as well.
01:15:49
◼
►
The pictures aren't the greatest, but the camera's tiny.
01:15:51
◼
►
Like the camera's pretty big
01:15:53
◼
►
until you start comparing to the lenses.
01:15:56
◼
►
This doesn't seem like it has very many redeeming qualities
01:16:00
◼
►
at all from what I'm hearing.
01:16:01
◼
►
- No, but it is half the price of the next one,
01:16:04
◼
►
which is the Sony RX10,
01:16:06
◼
►
which is the one in the bottom left corner.
01:16:08
◼
►
So, Sony RX10, it is almost double the price of the P1000.
01:16:13
◼
►
The RX10 IV really impressed me.
01:16:16
◼
►
For what it is, for how big it is, or rather isn't,
01:16:20
◼
►
for how heavy it isn't, and how easily it handled,
01:16:24
◼
►
I was very impressed with the RX10 Mark IV.
01:16:28
◼
►
It took pretty good pictures.
01:16:30
◼
►
It only goes to 600 millimeters, which is pretty great.
01:16:33
◼
►
The only reason I say quote only 600 millimeters
01:16:37
◼
►
is relative to some of the other ones
01:16:39
◼
►
that's not the furthest, but it's pretty great
01:16:42
◼
►
and it achieves pretty good detail
01:16:45
◼
►
relative to its price and size and trade-offs.
01:16:49
◼
►
So I was pretty impressed by the RX10 IV.
01:16:53
◼
►
And I think if I was in the market to buy
01:16:55
◼
►
an integrated super zoom camera,
01:16:57
◼
►
that's the one I would buy.
01:16:58
◼
►
It isn't worth trading in my giant full frame,
01:17:00
◼
►
my giant gear for that,
01:17:01
◼
►
just because the bigger gear surprise is better.
01:17:06
◼
►
But it's not, you know, the bigger gear is like
01:17:09
◼
►
three times the total cost or two times the total cost
01:17:12
◼
►
and probably three times the total size and weight.
01:17:15
◼
►
And I wouldn't say it's three times better.
01:17:17
◼
►
So anyway, that's the RX10 IV, a very solid contender.
01:17:22
◼
►
There's a reason why that camera is so well rated.
01:17:25
◼
►
Next I have my new Fuji XT5 and I rented the
01:17:30
◼
►
Fuji 150 to 600 millimeter giant telephoto lens with that.
01:17:34
◼
►
As usual, it I think had the most pleasing colors.
01:17:39
◼
►
I would say the Fuji 150-600 is a substantially sharper
01:17:44
◼
►
and nicer lens than the Sony 200-600,
01:17:49
◼
►
even though it is not as optically fast.
01:17:54
◼
►
What's interesting is that because the Fuji
01:17:56
◼
►
is made for its crop sensor cameras,
01:17:58
◼
►
it's made for APS-C-sized sensors,
01:18:00
◼
►
It's 600 millimeters is an equivalent of 900 millimeters.
01:18:05
◼
►
So I shot all these and you can see it is more zoomed in
01:18:09
◼
►
and you get pretty sharp results.
01:18:14
◼
►
It is a little tricky to focus in certain lighting.
01:18:17
◼
►
Again, that's I think mostly due to Fuji's focus system,
01:18:19
◼
►
not the lens, but it is surprisingly good
01:18:24
◼
►
and surprisingly detailed.
01:18:25
◼
►
Overall, very impressed by the Fuji.
01:18:28
◼
►
And then finally, I have my trusty old Sony A7R III
01:18:31
◼
►
with its 200 to 600 millimeter lens.
01:18:33
◼
►
I did two sets, one with the teleconverter
01:18:35
◼
►
to get it to 1200 millimeters
01:18:37
◼
►
and one without the teleconverter.
01:18:38
◼
►
And it did fantastically in terms of detail,
01:18:42
◼
►
like the text on the sign on the right set,
01:18:45
◼
►
the text I think is the best on the Sony series,
01:18:49
◼
►
but the lens overall is just not a very sharp lens.
01:18:53
◼
►
- You say that, but I was definitely looking at the text
01:18:56
◼
►
in the same thing.
01:18:57
◼
►
And I have to say, the Sony, the very bottom one,
01:18:59
◼
►
either with or without the teleconverter,
01:19:01
◼
►
has sharper text than any of the other ones.
01:19:05
◼
►
So you say, oh, the lens isn't as sharp.
01:19:06
◼
►
Well, the text is sharp.
01:19:07
◼
►
That's why I was looking for text,
01:19:08
◼
►
because we know what text looks like.
01:19:10
◼
►
In particular, if you look at ripcurrents.noaa.gov,
01:19:14
◼
►
the descender in the gene .gov is right on top of a rivet.
01:19:19
◼
►
That rivet reads way better on either one of the Sony pictures
01:19:23
◼
►
than it does on the Fuji one.
01:19:24
◼
►
That's interesting.
01:19:25
◼
►
If you pixel peep that and go in that, it's just sharper.
01:19:29
◼
►
It's sharper, it's not as fuzzy,
01:19:30
◼
►
I can't even tell that it's a river than the other ones.
01:19:32
◼
►
I definitely, looking at all these pictures,
01:19:34
◼
►
I was surprised to see that even with the teleconverter,
01:19:36
◼
►
which usually hurts your sharpness
01:19:39
◼
►
and light gathering or whatever,
01:19:40
◼
►
that the Sony comes out on top as far as I'm concerned.
01:19:44
◼
►
I mean, and it's close, it's not like the Fuji
01:19:46
◼
►
with that giant lens is much worse
01:19:48
◼
►
than the Sony with the giant lens,
01:19:49
◼
►
but I would definitely say that the Sony is sharper.
01:19:53
◼
►
Now, I think if you had, not that you need to spend
01:19:57
◼
►
more money, but like, you know, the A7R is up to
01:19:59
◼
►
the A7R V now, and that is not the most recent
01:20:02
◼
►
big giant, ridiculously expensive, white zoom lens
01:20:05
◼
►
from Sony, so if you, you know, refreshed all of that
01:20:09
◼
►
with modern Sony stuff to compete against your modern
01:20:12
◼
►
Fuji stuff, I think it would probably widen the gap
01:20:15
◼
►
- It's possible, I mean, certainly, you know,
01:20:16
◼
►
it would have more resolution and everything,
01:20:17
◼
►
but yeah, I was surprised, you know, just owning
01:20:20
◼
►
the Sony lens, I've been surprised like how little
01:20:23
◼
►
I like the pictures that I ever get out of it.
01:20:25
◼
►
And I don't know what, maybe that's just--
01:20:26
◼
►
- And I have to say, I've heard this from other people
01:20:28
◼
►
as well, and so you're not, this is you,
01:20:30
◼
►
but either I like what the Sony's do,
01:20:33
◼
►
or whatever difference you're seeing,
01:20:34
◼
►
I don't see or don't care about.
01:20:36
◼
►
Like the way they call it the color science or whatever.
01:20:38
◼
►
I see the differences from camera to camera,
01:20:41
◼
►
but I would never choose a camera based on it.
01:20:44
◼
►
'Cause I always just feel like,
01:20:45
◼
►
I guess it's because what it comes down to is,
01:20:47
◼
►
like you said, I'm editing these things.
01:20:49
◼
►
I mean, any picture I care about, I'm editing.
01:20:51
◼
►
So if there's something I dislike about the JPEG
01:20:56
◼
►
that came out, I'll go to the RAW
01:20:58
◼
►
and change it to the way I want it.
01:20:59
◼
►
I really don't care how the JPEGs look,
01:21:01
◼
►
especially when you're talking about
01:21:02
◼
►
one of these gigantic camera rigs
01:21:03
◼
►
where you're like, I'm done shooting in RAW, right?
01:21:05
◼
►
But if you've got that gigantic camera
01:21:07
◼
►
that's longer than your arm and it weighs a ton
01:21:10
◼
►
and you're setting it all up or whatever,
01:21:11
◼
►
spend the five minutes to edit it.
01:21:14
◼
►
But I need the JPEGs to come out exactly how I want them,
01:21:16
◼
►
but I'm willing to lug around a camera
01:21:17
◼
►
that's bigger than my child to take the photo.
01:21:21
◼
►
I don't quite understand that turned off.
01:21:22
◼
►
For the pocketable one, sure,
01:21:23
◼
►
but for the white colored camera lens
01:21:26
◼
►
that is gigantic and costs a bazillion dollars,
01:21:29
◼
►
edit those photos.
01:21:30
◼
►
- Sometimes I find with the Sonys that like,
01:21:32
◼
►
no matter what I do with the edit,
01:21:33
◼
►
I can't get the colors to look what I want them to look like.
01:21:37
◼
►
- But I do wonder what you're looking for.
01:21:39
◼
►
Like, I think the Sonys look okay.
01:21:43
◼
►
Like, I don't have that, you know.
01:21:45
◼
►
Maybe it's a little bit like,
01:21:46
◼
►
the Fujis I've always felt look a little bit,
01:21:48
◼
►
it's kind of like when people, you know,
01:21:50
◼
►
like the Sony's always to me look mostly neutral,
01:21:53
◼
►
whereas the Fuji's remind me more of film,
01:21:55
◼
►
just setting aside the ones where it's trying
01:21:57
◼
►
to look like film like you were talking about.
01:21:59
◼
►
And I don't want the film look,
01:22:01
◼
►
whether intentionally trying to look like film
01:22:03
◼
►
or just kind of like accidentally looking like film,
01:22:06
◼
►
I want it to be, I wouldn't call the Sony more neutral,
01:22:08
◼
►
but that's how I think of it as like the Sony's
01:22:10
◼
►
just showing me the colors that were there
01:22:12
◼
►
without trying to massage them.
01:22:14
◼
►
And that wasn't true, the Sony has its own bent
01:22:16
◼
►
about how it handles reds and stuff like that,
01:22:17
◼
►
like I can see that, but I definitely wouldn't choose
01:22:22
◼
►
a camera based on it, it's strange to hear.
01:22:25
◼
►
It is such a factor in your decision making
01:22:27
◼
►
about which cameras you want, even ones that are,
01:22:29
◼
►
even when we're talking about giant zoom lens
01:22:31
◼
►
on a giant big camera.
01:22:32
◼
►
- I've lived in Sony land for a while now.
01:22:36
◼
►
We used to be a Canon family.
01:22:37
◼
►
Tip still has her old Canon gear because she never
01:22:40
◼
►
ended up liking the Sony pictures very much.
01:22:42
◼
►
She has the same complaints I have of like,
01:22:44
◼
►
just can't get them to look the way you want.
01:22:45
◼
►
Sony excels in extreme technical skill
01:22:50
◼
►
at the expense of being really boring.
01:22:54
◼
►
Actually is kind of my greatest strengths and weaknesses
01:22:57
◼
►
as well as a person.
01:22:59
◼
►
But Sony, there's not a lot of pizzazz or excitement
01:23:05
◼
►
in the way Sony renders things.
01:23:07
◼
►
It doesn't make you go wow,
01:23:08
◼
►
but it's technically very much, very high
01:23:11
◼
►
and it beats everyone else on technical specs
01:23:13
◼
►
most of the time.
01:23:15
◼
►
And so there are lots of situations where that's okay,
01:23:18
◼
►
or that's what you want.
01:23:19
◼
►
Like if you're gonna be heavily editing
01:23:21
◼
►
the pictures afterwards.
01:23:23
◼
►
That makes a lot of sense.
01:23:24
◼
►
I know myself well enough to know that I'm not gonna edit.
01:23:27
◼
►
Like a long time ago, at some point for a Christmas one year
01:23:32
◼
►
we rented this crazy high priced Leica camera,
01:23:37
◼
►
also from Lens Rentals.
01:23:38
◼
►
We've done a lot of stuff with them over the years.
01:23:41
◼
►
It was this, whatever Leica was their digital rangefinder
01:23:46
◼
►
at the time, I think I made a blog post about it.
01:23:48
◼
►
My impression of it when we had it was,
01:23:52
◼
►
first of all, being a rangefinder was such a giant
01:23:54
◼
►
pain in the butt to use.
01:23:56
◼
►
If you've never used a rangefinder, consider yourself lucky.
01:23:58
◼
►
If you have, I'm sorry, you probably hate me right now.
01:24:00
◼
►
But such a massive pain in the butt
01:24:02
◼
►
to shoot things with a rangefinder.
01:24:05
◼
►
At the end of the day, I was disappointed by the camera's
01:24:08
◼
►
high ISO performance, it sucked in low light.
01:24:11
◼
►
Being a ring fender, it didn't have autofocus at all.
01:24:14
◼
►
The technical side of it, I was very disappointed by.
01:24:17
◼
►
But over the following years,
01:24:20
◼
►
I would always look back on those photos and be like,
01:24:22
◼
►
man, I love these pictures, I love the way they look.
01:24:26
◼
►
And it's not because of its technical perfection,
01:24:28
◼
►
'cause it didn't have that.
01:24:29
◼
►
It wasn't because it did great in low light,
01:24:31
◼
►
because it didn't.
01:24:32
◼
►
It wasn't because it had the highest resolution,
01:24:34
◼
►
because it didn't.
01:24:36
◼
►
I just liked the way they rendered colors,
01:24:38
◼
►
between Leica's optics and whatever they were doing
01:24:41
◼
►
in the camera to process those colors,
01:24:43
◼
►
I just liked the pictures a lot better
01:24:45
◼
►
than the other ones I was getting at the time.
01:24:47
◼
►
I just, I liked, it's indescribable,
01:24:50
◼
►
but you like what you like, right?
01:24:51
◼
►
And so anyway, that, we didn't go the Leica direction
01:24:55
◼
►
for many reasons, but, although honestly,
01:24:57
◼
►
I considered renting a Q2 during this run,
01:25:00
◼
►
but it would've like doubled the price of my entire rental.
01:25:03
◼
►
I'm like, I don't wanna do that.
01:25:05
◼
►
But anyway, for a while we left Canon Land,
01:25:09
◼
►
or I did at least, to go to Sony World
01:25:11
◼
►
because Sony World had just the amazing technical chops.
01:25:15
◼
►
So good in low light.
01:25:17
◼
►
The Sony full frame sensors, back with the first
01:25:21
◼
►
Sony A series cameras, were just kicking Canon's butt.
01:25:25
◼
►
They were so much better back in that time
01:25:29
◼
►
and so that got me over to Sony Land.
01:25:31
◼
►
But while I've taken a lot of decent pictures with Sony,
01:25:35
◼
►
I'm not loving the pictures I get out of my Sony cameras
01:25:38
◼
►
as much as I used to love some of the Canon stuff
01:25:40
◼
►
I was getting, as much as I love those rented Leica pictures,
01:25:44
◼
►
and as much as I love the handful of pictures
01:25:45
◼
►
I've shot so far with the Fuji gear.
01:25:47
◼
►
It just doesn't fit me, and I've tried, I've edited them,
01:25:50
◼
►
and I've tried processing them and doing different things,
01:25:53
◼
►
and I just can't get out of the Sony what I want
01:25:55
◼
►
in terms of niceness, something I love.
01:25:59
◼
►
It's not about technical specs.
01:26:01
◼
►
- You know, I'm not sure this is a good analogy,
01:26:03
◼
►
But when I listen to you say this, it makes me think of the somewhat similar situation
01:26:09
◼
►
in the audio world of people who we've talked about in the past, people who like the smile
01:26:13
◼
►
curve because it makes movies exciting where you boost the bass and you boost the treble
01:26:16
◼
►
and you dip the mids and people who want a more neutral sound.
01:26:19
◼
►
And then there are people who think a neutral sound is super boring.
01:26:22
◼
►
And it sounds to me like you like the like a smile curve and neutral photos seem like
01:26:28
◼
►
poison to you and that also that you're unable to reproduce the smile curve when you try
01:26:32
◼
►
to manually edit it.
01:26:33
◼
►
And I would have to think the inability to reproduce
01:26:36
◼
►
the thing you want from a neutral photo
01:26:38
◼
►
mostly comes down to not knowing what it is
01:26:42
◼
►
that you need to do with your neutral photo
01:26:43
◼
►
to make it look like those Leica photos, right?
01:26:45
◼
►
'Cause it's an indescribable thing that you know,
01:26:47
◼
►
you know you like it, you see it, you know you like it,
01:26:49
◼
►
but if you don't know, all right,
01:26:51
◼
►
how do I go from neutral to that,
01:26:54
◼
►
you're never gonna be able to do it just by, you know,
01:26:55
◼
►
randomly poking at curves and stuff
01:26:57
◼
►
to try to make it happen.
01:26:59
◼
►
- Yeah, and part of that is because
01:27:02
◼
►
it's really complicated and it's like when you try
01:27:04
◼
►
to correct--
01:27:05
◼
►
- Yeah, it's not as simple as just push this dial up
01:27:07
◼
►
on the equalizer and you're done, right?
01:27:09
◼
►
- Right, yeah, it's like trying to correct something
01:27:11
◼
►
you don't like about headphones with EQ.
01:27:12
◼
►
It's like you can sometimes do that a little bit,
01:27:15
◼
►
but the whole frequency response and distortion
01:27:19
◼
►
characteristics and reflection characteristics
01:27:21
◼
►
of a headphone are so much more complicated
01:27:23
◼
►
than just the basic EQ controls you have.
01:27:26
◼
►
And that's how I feel with photos.
01:27:27
◼
►
Like I can use something like Lightroom or the built
01:27:30
◼
►
and photos app and use the editing controls.
01:27:33
◼
►
I've done that before.
01:27:34
◼
►
I did that for years.
01:27:35
◼
►
And sometimes it would work out for me.
01:27:38
◼
►
Usually not.
01:27:39
◼
►
And it's partly because it's more complicated than that.
01:27:42
◼
►
It's also largely because I'm not very good at it,
01:27:44
◼
►
and I'm never gonna be very good at it.
01:27:46
◼
►
- And you'd have to start from raw
01:27:48
◼
►
to have a fighting chance.
01:27:49
◼
►
'Cause if you start from the JPEG,
01:27:50
◼
►
you're just, you know, you're screwed.
01:27:52
◼
►
So I've decided that my camera journey is
01:27:56
◼
►
I'm gonna abandon technical,
01:27:59
◼
►
or technical class leadership, I think.
01:28:03
◼
►
And just go with what I love.
01:28:06
◼
►
Go with what gives me the pictures I love.
01:28:08
◼
►
And right now, that is Fuji.
01:28:10
◼
►
And I never tried Fuji before,
01:28:11
◼
►
because they weren't leading in the technical stuff.
01:28:14
◼
►
They never had the best high ISO noise performance.
01:28:18
◼
►
They usually didn't have the best megapixel resolution.
01:28:23
◼
►
I didn't really know anything about their lens situation.
01:28:25
◼
►
They didn't have anything full frame.
01:28:26
◼
►
It's funny, they don't have full frame.
01:28:29
◼
►
They have APS-C and they went right to medium format.
01:28:32
◼
►
They have nothing in between.
01:28:33
◼
►
But anyway, I thought for a long time
01:28:37
◼
►
that what I wanted was technical perfection,
01:28:39
◼
►
but I now know what I want is pictures I love.
01:28:42
◼
►
And some of those are gonna come from iPhones,
01:28:44
◼
►
some of those are gonna come from Fugees,
01:28:45
◼
►
some of those are gonna come from random rented Sonys
01:28:47
◼
►
here and there, but I'm getting a lot more of them
01:28:50
◼
►
from Fugees and my hit rate is quite good.
01:28:54
◼
►
- I will give your Sony gear a good home.
01:28:56
◼
►
- I will probably be sending some of it to you.
01:28:59
◼
►
First I'm gonna trade some of it to Beck,
01:29:01
◼
►
probably to B&H to get, probably to buy this Fuji lens
01:29:04
◼
►
and then we'll talk.
01:29:05
◼
►
All right, thanks to our sponsors this week,
01:29:10
◼
►
Green Chef, Trade Coffee, and Squarespace.
01:29:14
◼
►
And thanks to our members, once again,
01:29:15
◼
►
big, big thank you for the members.
01:29:17
◼
►
We've had wonderful membership numbers recently
01:29:19
◼
►
and we've got tons of great feedback
01:29:21
◼
►
on our member exclusive episodes we've done recently,
01:29:23
◼
►
lots of great feedback on the Totoro episode,
01:29:26
◼
►
lots of great feedback on the food one before that,
01:29:27
◼
►
Like we're on a roll here.
01:29:29
◼
►
So thank you so much to members.
01:29:30
◼
►
You can join an atb.fm/join.
01:29:33
◼
►
We'll talk to you next week.
01:29:35
◼
►
♪ Now the show is over ♪
01:29:40
◼
►
♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪
01:29:42
◼
►
♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
01:29:45
◼
►
♪ Oh it was accidental ♪
01:29:48
◼
►
♪ John didn't do any research ♪
01:29:50
◼
►
♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪
01:29:53
◼
►
♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
01:29:56
◼
►
And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm And if you're into Twitter, you can follow
01:30:03
◼
►
them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M
01:30:15
◼
►
Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracusa
01:30:22
◼
►
♪ USA Syracuse, it's accidental ♪
01:30:27
◼
►
♪ They didn't mean to, accidental ♪
01:30:33
◼
►
♪ Tech podcast so long ♪
01:30:36
◼
►
- I'm going to do my dear friend Mike Dirty
01:30:42
◼
►
and talk about something that we spoke about
01:30:44
◼
►
a little bit on analog this week, but isn't out yet.
01:30:46
◼
►
This is the pain that comes from analog recording
01:30:49
◼
►
on a Tuesday, but not typically being released until Sunday.
01:30:53
◼
►
So I'm sort of taking away Mike's exclusive.
01:30:56
◼
►
And I'm sorry, Mike, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention,
01:30:59
◼
►
but here we are. - Hey, we were here first.
01:31:00
◼
►
- Well, he was there first,
01:31:02
◼
►
it's just nobody heard it but the two of us, so.
01:31:05
◼
►
- Marco's rapid production cycle wins again.
01:31:07
◼
►
- You got a ship, real artist ship, you know?
01:31:10
◼
►
- Oh, brutal, poor Mike, I'm sorry, Mike.
01:31:13
◼
►
So anyway, so what we talked about, Mike and myself,
01:31:16
◼
►
and I will put a link to the
01:31:17
◼
►
as we record this forthcoming episode of Analog,
01:31:20
◼
►
but will soon by Sunday will be
01:31:23
◼
►
the released episode of Analog.
01:31:25
◼
►
Mike and I talked about my forthcoming app.
01:31:28
◼
►
And I am pretty, pretty sure
01:31:33
◼
►
this one's actually gonna see the light of day.
01:31:34
◼
►
It is not ready yet.
01:31:36
◼
►
It is getting pretty close,
01:31:37
◼
►
but I thought I would try something different
01:31:42
◼
►
and talk about it a bit.
01:31:44
◼
►
And I'm not really sure why I wanted
01:31:45
◼
►
try something different other than it's different, but I figured we could talk about it, the
01:31:50
◼
►
three of us and the listeners kind of by proxy and see what we think.
01:31:54
◼
►
So what am I up to?
01:31:56
◼
►
As usual, I don't have a good name.
01:31:58
◼
►
If you recall, in the past I didn't come up with -- well, actually, I think it was my
01:32:02
◼
►
friend Steve that came up with Masquerade if memory serves, but that didn't happen until
01:32:05
◼
►
pretty late in the development cycle.
01:32:08
◼
►
I don't have a good name for it, and I have an even worse icon for it for those who are
01:32:12
◼
►
on the test flight, which is basically just friends
01:32:14
◼
►
at this point.
01:32:15
◼
►
- Do you wanna share the terrible name?
01:32:18
◼
►
Just so you can tell me how you came up
01:32:19
◼
►
with this terrible name.
01:32:20
◼
►
- Okay, so the code name--
01:32:22
◼
►
- Oh wait, no, I think I figured it out.
01:32:23
◼
►
Go ahead, see if I'm right.
01:32:24
◼
►
- So the code name is, well, I don't wanna pronounce it
01:32:27
◼
►
because of how it looks like a joke.
01:32:29
◼
►
No, no, no, so the code name is the word lookup
01:32:33
◼
►
with an F in front of it, which is supposed to be
01:32:35
◼
►
a portmanteau of film lookup to become flookup, right?
01:32:40
◼
►
Well, I said this to Erin, or I showed Erin the name.
01:32:43
◼
►
I did not verbalize it to her, and she says, "Flukeup."
01:32:47
◼
►
- Flukup? - What the hell is Flukeup?
01:32:49
◼
►
- It does look like Flukeup.
01:32:51
◼
►
Now that I see, I instantly read in my head Flukeup,
01:32:54
◼
►
when I saw it first, but I can see why you'd get Flukeup.
01:32:57
◼
►
- Yep, I read Flukeup, and then I tried to eff Flukeup,
01:32:59
◼
►
and I was like, "No, they're both bad."
01:33:01
◼
►
- They're both bad.
01:33:02
◼
►
I mean, full stop, they're both bad.
01:33:03
◼
►
- Flukup P, fast look up P.
01:33:06
◼
►
- Yeah, it's no P on this one, not yet anyway.
01:33:08
◼
►
See, I need a name. I'm still working on that. And I need an icon. The icon is...
01:33:12
◼
►
I like Flukup. I think it's a funny name. I think it works.
01:33:15
◼
►
No, do not listen to Marco. It's a terrible name.
01:33:17
◼
►
I always like your initial terrible names.
01:33:19
◼
►
Well, it's probably better than Face Splash, but that's neither here nor there.
01:33:25
◼
►
But only marginally.
01:33:26
◼
►
But anyway, in any case, so we're getting off track already. So what the heck is it?
01:33:37
◼
►
The thesis statement, if you will, is imagine IMDb but written by someone who has self-respect.
01:33:44
◼
►
And so what this was born from is I often, when I'm watching a television show or a movie or some
01:33:53
◼
►
such, I would want to know, "Oh, who is this person?" or "Where do I know this person from?"
01:33:57
◼
►
or what have you. And for years and years and years and years I would use the IMDb app or the
01:34:02
◼
►
to the website, the website is still mostly okay.
01:34:07
◼
►
- Disagree. - It's not great.
01:34:10
◼
►
- It's unusable. - So much.
01:34:13
◼
►
- Well, I can use the website and I can do it
01:34:17
◼
►
without actively vomiting on myself.
01:34:19
◼
►
- Without scrolling up and down the page seven times.
01:34:22
◼
►
It's gotta be here, right?
01:34:23
◼
►
- That is fair, that is totally fair.
01:34:24
◼
►
That is totally fair.
01:34:25
◼
►
- Best experience by IMDb, I hate it so much.
01:34:27
◼
►
- However, I will say that the IMDb app,
01:34:30
◼
►
my personal opinion, is unusable and has been for like two or three years now. So
01:34:35
◼
►
the reasons I don't like the IMDb app, not to belabor it, it's constantly like
01:34:40
◼
►
playing videos or trying to play videos or show you images at like three
01:34:43
◼
►
quarters the size of the screen. I don't want to log in. I don't want to log in.
01:34:49
◼
►
Stop asking. I don't f***ing want to log in. Just stop. So that in and of
01:34:56
◼
►
itself is enough to drive me nuts. And it's very gross now. It's clear that Amazon owns
01:35:02
◼
►
it. It's clear they want you to either watch their shows or buy things from them. And it's
01:35:06
◼
►
just frustrating. And so I started wondering, well, could I fix this problem? And there's
01:35:13
◼
►
a pretty great website called The Movie Database. And we'll put a link to The Movie Database
01:35:19
◼
►
in the show notes. It is a kind of, I don't want to say knockoff, that's kind of disrespectful,
01:35:26
◼
►
But it's an alternative to IMDB.
01:35:30
◼
►
I'll be the first to tell you the data is not quite as good as IMDB's, but it's pretty
01:35:37
◼
►
And for any of the major stuff, it'll be there.
01:35:40
◼
►
And so I started digging and looking and well, wow, they have an API and wow, this API seems
01:35:46
◼
►
to make sense.
01:35:47
◼
►
It's not completely bananas.
01:35:49
◼
►
And if all you're doing is reading stuff, you don't need to log into anything.
01:35:54
◼
►
And so that's how FlukeUp was born, or whatever I ended up calling it.
01:35:59
◼
►
And the idea is, what if it's IMDb by someone who actually cares?
01:36:04
◼
►
And it lets you look up TV, movies, episodes of TV shows, seasons of TV shows, and people
01:36:13
◼
►
And I started--the first commit--I should have had this handy, I'm sorry--but the first
01:36:17
◼
►
commit on this was something like January 25th or thereabouts?
01:36:22
◼
►
And I think I'm in a position that, barring the name and icon, I could send this to App
01:36:29
◼
►
Review in the next few days, I think.
01:36:32
◼
►
So I am pretty darn proud of how fast it's come together.
01:36:36
◼
►
It's 100% SwiftUI.
01:36:37
◼
►
I'm literally not using UIKit for anything as far as I can recall.
01:36:41
◼
►
It's using Async/Await, which has gone really, really well.
01:36:44
◼
►
And I'm just really enjoying writing it.
01:36:47
◼
►
And I'm having a lot of fun with it, which is cool.
01:36:51
◼
►
The most interesting thing at the moment
01:36:55
◼
►
is how do you monetize it?
01:36:57
◼
►
But actually I should interrupt and say,
01:36:59
◼
►
do you two have anything you wanna talk about,
01:37:01
◼
►
add or ask before I start talking about monetization?
01:37:04
◼
►
- Yeah, first of all, I will nitpick.
01:37:07
◼
►
When you sent me the very first version,
01:37:09
◼
►
I nitpicked a few things.
01:37:10
◼
►
I did one of my trademark video tour.
01:37:13
◼
►
I've been holding back until things calmed down
01:37:16
◼
►
a little bit to send my final design nitpicks.
01:37:19
◼
►
But this is coming together really well.
01:37:21
◼
►
This might be your best app yet.
01:37:22
◼
►
I mean, it's really good.
01:37:25
◼
►
And it's very useful.
01:37:27
◼
►
I think this is going to be useful to a lot of people.
01:37:32
◼
►
This could be it.
01:37:34
◼
►
And I'm happy to hear that you've quote,
01:37:37
◼
►
"Only worked on it for about three or four months now,"
01:37:40
◼
►
because that's how to become a successful iOS developer,
01:37:45
◼
►
is like, try stuff.
01:37:49
◼
►
You know, you gotta put stuff out there.
01:37:50
◼
►
You gotta try it and see what's gonna work
01:37:52
◼
►
and what's gonna stick, what's gonna find an audience,
01:37:55
◼
►
what's not, that's what you gotta do.
01:37:57
◼
►
And if you're spending a whole year on an app
01:38:01
◼
►
and you put it out there and it's actually
01:38:02
◼
►
a pretty specialized thing that doesn't have
01:38:04
◼
►
a huge audience, that's not a great use of your time.
01:38:07
◼
►
And if you want this to become a bigger part
01:38:09
◼
►
of what you do, this is how to do that.
01:38:12
◼
►
You get an app like this where it's like
01:38:14
◼
►
you identified a pretty substantially sized market.
01:38:18
◼
►
It's a big market.
01:38:19
◼
►
You built something that doesn't seem to have
01:38:22
◼
►
major costs to you.
01:38:24
◼
►
Like you're not running the servers.
01:38:26
◼
►
You're not running any kind of backend service for this.
01:38:28
◼
►
You're not paying for the API it seems, right?
01:38:32
◼
►
- So there's a whole story there.
01:38:35
◼
►
We'll get back to that.
01:38:35
◼
►
But suffice it to say, so far that is correct.
01:38:37
◼
►
- Right, so there's that.
01:38:39
◼
►
And you made something that looks and feels pretty good
01:38:43
◼
►
without taking a ton of time to do it.
01:38:45
◼
►
That's a great story.
01:38:46
◼
►
And the result is really good.
01:38:49
◼
►
It's very useful.
01:38:51
◼
►
It is something that I've used a couple of times so far.
01:38:54
◼
►
The only reason I haven't used it more
01:38:56
◼
►
is that I don't watch a lot of movies.
01:38:57
◼
►
But when I do, I have the same need.
01:38:59
◼
►
And I'll do the same thing you do on TV shows.
01:39:01
◼
►
Oh, it's that guy.
01:39:02
◼
►
What's he from again?
01:39:03
◼
►
And I'll go look it up or whatever.
01:39:06
◼
►
And I think this is great.
01:39:07
◼
►
I really do.
01:39:07
◼
►
I think this shows your growth as an independent iOS
01:39:12
◼
►
You are getting better, and your ideas
01:39:15
◼
►
are getting more mainstream and this is,
01:39:18
◼
►
I think a pretty good opportunity.
01:39:20
◼
►
And I will nitpick things, obviously.
01:39:24
◼
►
- That's why you're here, that's why you're here.
01:39:25
◼
►
- But I have less to nitpick here
01:39:28
◼
►
than any of your previous apps when I first seen them.
01:39:31
◼
►
Like way less.
01:39:32
◼
►
- Yeah and it's come a long way.
01:39:33
◼
►
It's come a long way and I think some of that is me,
01:39:36
◼
►
some of that is our mutual friend Ben McCarthy
01:39:39
◼
►
who makes Obscura among other things.
01:39:41
◼
►
I'll put a link to Obscura in the show notes.
01:39:43
◼
►
It's like an alternative camera app.
01:39:47
◼
►
Ben had some really phenomenal UI ideas
01:39:50
◼
►
that they shared with me,
01:39:52
◼
►
and that I think made a tremendous, tremendous difference.
01:39:55
◼
►
Anything looks good is either them or me,
01:39:57
◼
►
and anything looks bad is 100% me.
01:40:00
◼
►
So that's what we can agree on.
01:40:01
◼
►
- Wait, I'm taking credit for my PG-13R,
01:40:04
◼
►
like the styling of the rating.
01:40:05
◼
►
That's me. - Oh, that's true.
01:40:06
◼
►
That's true, I'm sorry.
01:40:07
◼
►
No, you're right, I completely forgot about that.
01:40:08
◼
►
You're 100% correct.
01:40:09
◼
►
- I'm the one who first ripped off the MPAA for you.
01:40:14
◼
►
No, I do feel like it looks pretty good.
01:40:16
◼
►
It's not perfect by any means, but it looks pretty good.
01:40:18
◼
►
I'm pretty happy with it.
01:40:19
◼
►
John, any commentary before we talk
01:40:21
◼
►
monetization and API stuff?
01:40:23
◼
►
- I was gonna say, when I was thinking of this app,
01:40:24
◼
►
like I immediately understood what you were making,
01:40:26
◼
►
even when the app did nothing, it was terrible.
01:40:30
◼
►
But I understood, like it was clear to me.
01:40:32
◼
►
And to be clear, you sent this app to us,
01:40:34
◼
►
and like it didn't explain anything about it.
01:40:36
◼
►
And I saw the icon, and I didn't understand
01:40:38
◼
►
what the heck it was, and it was terrible.
01:40:39
◼
►
But then I launched it, and I'm like,
01:40:40
◼
►
"Oh, I get it, IMDb, but not sucking."
01:40:41
◼
►
So thumbs up on the concept.
01:40:45
◼
►
I have to say for me personally, and this does not affect your market because your market
01:40:48
◼
►
is much more mass market, but for me personally, your biggest competition, which is currently
01:40:53
◼
►
way, way ahead of you because they've been out for years and years and years, is Letterboxd.
01:40:58
◼
►
And I know they don't do TV, and I know it's not really the point of that site, but they
01:41:02
◼
►
have had so many years to polish their experience of finding movies and who's in them and what
01:41:08
◼
►
the things they might be in and stuff like that, and their site and their app, which
01:41:12
◼
►
is really just their website, is not junked up like IMDb.
01:41:16
◼
►
So I feel like within the realm of people who even know what PackLadderBoxD is, it is
01:41:20
◼
►
very strong competition because it is not…
01:41:24
◼
►
I think it's way better than the movie database site.
01:41:26
◼
►
It's certainly better than IMDb.
01:41:28
◼
►
It is the same ethos as you.
01:41:30
◼
►
It's, "Hey, guess what?
01:41:31
◼
►
A thing that people might want to use to find information that is nicely organized and laid
01:41:35
◼
►
out and this site was not created in the last three months, right?
01:41:40
◼
►
So they have a big lead on you.
01:41:42
◼
►
Your advantage is nobody who's not a giant film nerd knows about Letterboxd and honestly
01:41:46
◼
►
it's overkill for the simple use cases if I'm on the couch and I want to find out what
01:41:49
◼
►
this person's in.
01:41:50
◼
►
I go to it because I use Letterboxd all the time and I do movie stuff or whatever but
01:41:55
◼
►
Marco is not the target audience for Letterboxd and he would use your app.
01:42:00
◼
►
And this is also to say if you want some good ideas about how to lay things out and how
01:42:04
◼
►
to do UIs, I'd go to Letterboxd, their website, and again, their quote-unquote "app" I think
01:42:09
◼
►
is just a web view onto their mobile version of their site, which is a testament to how
01:42:14
◼
►
good the mobile version of their site is, but I would say check that out for some good
01:42:18
◼
►
Oh, I should do that.
01:42:20
◼
►
Yeah, it's funny because a lot of the people that I've sent the beta to seem to, the cross
01:42:27
◼
►
section between my friends and Letterboxd users seems to be quite strong.
01:42:32
◼
►
I am not a letterbox user.
01:42:34
◼
►
It's not something I think I need or want in my life, but I can totally understand why
01:42:38
◼
►
one would want it.
01:42:39
◼
►
Like, I use Goodreads fairly religiously to track the things that I've read, and it's
01:42:44
◼
►
a very similar idea.
01:42:45
◼
►
I want to congratulate you for your ability to pronounce the name of that site differently
01:42:49
◼
►
than me in the same conversation and not giving in like the GIF GIF people do when you're
01:42:53
◼
►
conversing about somebody with it and you can't help but just start copying the other
01:42:56
◼
►
person's pronunciation like whoever said it first, but no, you're holding strong.
01:42:59
◼
►
- And to be clear, Casey is pronouncing it the right way,
01:43:01
◼
►
and I'm pronouncing it the John way.
01:43:04
◼
►
- We'll see how well I do, but in any case.
01:43:08
◼
►
So yeah, so I think if this continues to be a thing
01:43:12
◼
►
and if it's not just a flop,
01:43:13
◼
►
then one thing that I've gotten some very clear interest in,
01:43:17
◼
►
at least because of the small test group I've sent it to,
01:43:20
◼
►
is having letterboxed integration and marking.
01:43:24
◼
►
I don't even know what that would mean, to be honest,
01:43:26
◼
►
because again, I don't really use letterbox,
01:43:28
◼
►
but I would investigate that and see what makes sense
01:43:31
◼
►
to be in both places.
01:43:33
◼
►
But that's another version way down the road.
01:43:35
◼
►
So with regard to monetization, so yes,
01:43:38
◼
►
so Marco touched on this earlier.
01:43:40
◼
►
It's a little bit of a squishy thing
01:43:44
◼
►
because the movie database seems to not want my money.
01:43:49
◼
►
So they have like a couple of different,
01:43:52
◼
►
this is just for the listeners, not even just the members,
01:43:54
◼
►
but for the listeners, because this is kind of putting me
01:43:58
◼
►
a little bit of an awkward spot. So I have--I could belabor this story quite a bit, but
01:44:02
◼
►
suffice to say, I've asked several times to get a commercial key, like, you know, API
01:44:08
◼
►
key from the movie database. I've asked in this one place over here and another place
01:44:12
◼
►
over there, and so far they refuse to give one to me. They keep ghosting me when I ask
01:44:18
◼
►
them. And I'm like, "Hey, you know, I'm currently using a developer key. That's fine, but this
01:44:23
◼
►
This will be sold at some point.
01:44:24
◼
►
Can I have a commercial key?
01:44:27
◼
►
So, I've back-channeled a little bit with some people that are using the Movie Database
01:44:32
◼
►
API in other uses, and I don't think they're ever going to want my money.
01:44:40
◼
►
But that's not like it's in writing or anything, right?
01:44:43
◼
►
So like, I need to account for the fact that this is an API that I don't own and I don't
01:44:49
◼
►
it is perfectly within their, you know, rights to say,
01:44:52
◼
►
"You got to pony up, big guy."
01:44:54
◼
►
So since this is something that hopefully people would use a lot
01:44:57
◼
►
and hopefully a lot of people would use,
01:44:59
◼
►
I need to have some sort of recurring revenue.
01:45:01
◼
►
I don't want to be put in a situation
01:45:03
◼
►
where suddenly my weather API,
01:45:04
◼
►
so to speak, not in a literal sense, you know,
01:45:06
◼
►
the weather API that goes from free to not free
01:45:09
◼
►
to, oh, my gosh, expensive.
01:45:11
◼
►
So I think what I'm going to do is make this a subscription app.
01:45:17
◼
►
And I did not start down that path,
01:45:18
◼
►
but I think it was underscore in a conversation
01:45:20
◼
►
we were having, said to me,
01:45:21
◼
►
"Look, you gotta go subscription
01:45:24
◼
►
"'cause you never know what the future will bring."
01:45:26
◼
►
I hope I'm not putting words in underscore in its mouth.
01:45:28
◼
►
I'm pretty sure it was him that started this in my head.
01:45:30
◼
►
But that makes me think, okay, I should do a subscription.
01:45:33
◼
►
But that, in turn, I don't think it's right,
01:45:37
◼
►
you just beg us the question, but beg us the question.
01:45:38
◼
►
- Raises the question.
01:45:39
◼
►
- There it is, thank you.
01:45:40
◼
►
How much does one charge for this?
01:45:44
◼
►
And honestly, I don't have a great answer
01:45:48
◼
►
because I was looking at what can I think of
01:45:53
◼
►
as something that has a clear and obvious cost,
01:45:56
◼
►
recurring cost to the company,
01:45:59
◼
►
and even an end user would understand that,
01:46:03
◼
►
and how much does that cost?
01:46:04
◼
►
Well, there's an app called Overcast
01:46:07
◼
►
that has a clear and recurring cost
01:46:09
◼
►
to the person or persons that run Overcast,
01:46:12
◼
►
and I should look at how much that is.
01:46:15
◼
►
- No, you shouldn't. - And if I'm not,
01:46:16
◼
►
Well, if I'm not mistaken, overcast is $10 a year.
01:46:21
◼
►
So to me, that sets a high threshold
01:46:26
◼
►
that I don't think I should be even that particularly close
01:46:29
◼
►
to $10 a year.
01:46:31
◼
►
But then where should I be?
01:46:33
◼
►
And honestly, I don't know.
01:46:34
◼
►
- I'm not sure, pfft.
01:46:36
◼
►
See, I get what you're saying.
01:46:37
◼
►
It was like, oh, I have a comparable, as they say
01:46:40
◼
►
in the real estate industry, but it's not comparable.
01:46:43
◼
►
Setting aside whether Marcos pricing is right,
01:46:47
◼
►
- Right, but like, here's the deal.
01:46:50
◼
►
No one who is interested in buying your app
01:46:53
◼
►
knows or cares what Overcast goes for.
01:46:57
◼
►
They're not competitors, they might not even know
01:47:00
◼
►
Overcast exists, right?
01:47:01
◼
►
The question, not that this makes it easier,
01:47:05
◼
►
but I'm just saying the question is,
01:47:07
◼
►
how much are people willing to pay for an app
01:47:08
◼
►
that does what your app does?
01:47:09
◼
►
- When there's a very clear free alternative.
01:47:12
◼
►
- And that has almost no connection
01:47:14
◼
►
to how much are they willing to pay for a podcast app
01:47:16
◼
►
that does what Overcast does.
01:47:18
◼
►
- And then the second question is,
01:47:20
◼
►
oh, is Overcast charging the right amount?
01:47:24
◼
►
- So, and I'm assuming, Marco,
01:47:25
◼
►
you think you should be charging more?
01:47:26
◼
►
- Yeah, definitely.
01:47:28
◼
►
- When I, you know, when I launched Overcast Premium,
01:47:31
◼
►
God knows how many years ago,
01:47:33
◼
►
subscriptions for, you know, non-content apps,
01:47:37
◼
►
like, you know, subscriptions for like, you know,
01:47:38
◼
►
newsstand apps were common, you know, stuff like that,
01:47:41
◼
►
but like, subscriptions for like regular app functionality,
01:47:44
◼
►
That was not that common still back then.
01:47:47
◼
►
And $10 a year felt like a bit of a reach,
01:47:51
◼
►
but like a doable reach, so I did it.
01:47:53
◼
►
Now, I mean look, I just told you,
01:47:56
◼
►
five hours ago when we began this episode,
01:47:57
◼
►
I just told you that there was this app
01:48:00
◼
►
that made the EDR photos for me.
01:48:03
◼
►
It's a one feature app that I'm gonna use
01:48:05
◼
►
here and there occasionally.
01:48:07
◼
►
It's $3 a month or $30 lifetime,
01:48:09
◼
►
and I jump right for the $30 lifetime purchase.
01:48:12
◼
►
But if I didn't, it was $3 a month.
01:48:15
◼
►
Like, and I'm paying 10, I'm charging $10 a year
01:48:18
◼
►
for an app that people use typically,
01:48:19
◼
►
you know, multiple hours a day.
01:48:22
◼
►
So the comparison, as John said, is not, you know,
01:48:25
◼
►
super direct between what many different apps do.
01:48:27
◼
►
But if I was launching today,
01:48:30
◼
►
I would not charge $10 a year.
01:48:32
◼
►
I would probably, I mean, look, even my competitors.
01:48:34
◼
►
Like, if you look at other podcast apps
01:48:37
◼
►
that charge money for anything at all,
01:48:39
◼
►
I'm cheaper than all of them
01:48:41
◼
►
for the premium feature set.
01:48:42
◼
►
I think all of us are free up front now,
01:48:44
◼
►
but the premium feature set, I'm by far the cheapest,
01:48:47
◼
►
I think, I think by half or more.
01:48:51
◼
►
And so if I were doing this today,
01:48:54
◼
►
I would probably go to 20 a year maybe?
01:48:58
◼
►
Or maybe I'd have some kind of monthly, I don't know.
01:49:02
◼
►
Maybe I'd have to do a free trial,
01:49:03
◼
►
which I still have not done.
01:49:05
◼
►
So I don't know necessarily what I would do,
01:49:08
◼
►
but it wouldn't be $10 a year.
01:49:09
◼
►
it would be substantially more in some way.
01:49:12
◼
►
That being said, Overcast is not $10 a year.
01:49:15
◼
►
Overcast is free with ads or $10 a year.
01:49:18
◼
►
You can put ads in this,
01:49:20
◼
►
and that's what most people would do,
01:49:22
◼
►
and you would crap up the experience
01:49:24
◼
►
and be exactly what you are trying to not do.
01:49:27
◼
►
- Exactly, exactly.
01:49:28
◼
►
- But you would make some money from ads.
01:49:30
◼
►
That's the thing, and you could have,
01:49:32
◼
►
most people would leave them,
01:49:33
◼
►
and you'd make a few pennies here and there
01:49:35
◼
►
from those people, and then people like me
01:49:37
◼
►
who are jerks about ads, not wanting to see ads in my ass
01:49:41
◼
►
if I don't have to, we would pay
01:49:43
◼
►
for whatever the unlock would be, and that would be it.
01:49:46
◼
►
And you'd get some purchases for the no ads purchase,
01:49:49
◼
►
and you get some purchases for the ads,
01:49:51
◼
►
or some money from the ads, and that would be it.
01:49:53
◼
►
That is probably the best way to do it.
01:49:55
◼
►
Whether you'd want to do that or not,
01:49:56
◼
►
it's a different story, but if you want
01:49:58
◼
►
to maximize your money, that's what you should do,
01:50:00
◼
►
is put ads in it and tolerate some crappiness.
01:50:05
◼
►
But again, that's not the way to make the best app necessarily.
01:50:09
◼
►
That's the way to make the most money.
01:50:10
◼
►
- So you complete the trifecta of not taking
01:50:12
◼
►
any pricing advice from your podcast co-hosts.
01:50:15
◼
►
The tiny number of people who use my two apps,
01:50:19
◼
►
run them 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
01:50:21
◼
►
So I should be charging tons of money.
01:50:23
◼
►
Instead, it's a one-time price that never repeats.
01:50:25
◼
►
Don't price like my apps.
01:50:29
◼
►
And apparently don't price like Margos' apps.
01:50:31
◼
►
Well, I guess he's saying yes, price like his app,
01:50:33
◼
►
but don't price just like the premium portion
01:50:35
◼
►
of his app, don't forget there's the free part with ads.
01:50:38
◼
►
- Yeah, and by the way, what you said a minute ago
01:50:41
◼
►
about you don't know what the future holds
01:50:42
◼
►
in terms of your API access to the service
01:50:45
◼
►
that your app depends on and is useless without,
01:50:48
◼
►
to me, that's a giant red flag for a subscription purchase.
01:50:52
◼
►
'Cause what just happened with the Twitter apps
01:50:54
◼
►
that were cut off and had to refund?
01:50:57
◼
►
- And I would say, even if that API is free forever,
01:51:00
◼
►
even if they never charge you any money for it,
01:51:03
◼
►
and I would say that any app, and setting aside
01:51:05
◼
►
what Marco was just saying is that look,
01:51:07
◼
►
every app charges subscriptions no matter what they do now.
01:51:09
◼
►
But any app that accesses a third party API
01:51:14
◼
►
that you don't control should charge a subscription.
01:51:17
◼
►
It doesn't have to be expensive subscription,
01:51:18
◼
►
but it should charge a subscription.
01:51:20
◼
►
It could be $1 a year, but whatever it is.
01:51:22
◼
►
Because that app is guaranteed to require
01:51:25
◼
►
some kind of ongoing maintenance above and beyond
01:51:28
◼
►
the just keeping up with the latest version of iOS,
01:51:30
◼
►
'cause APIs change, unless they're dead.
01:51:32
◼
►
I mean, if the API is dead,
01:51:33
◼
►
then you have separate problems, right?
01:51:34
◼
►
because APIs change, and that means you'll have to update
01:51:36
◼
►
your app, or you'll wanna update your app.
01:51:39
◼
►
You are essentially writing on top of a thing
01:51:42
◼
►
that you don't control.
01:51:43
◼
►
We're all writing on top of the Apple platform,
01:51:44
◼
►
and we have to keep up with those changes.
01:51:46
◼
►
We have no choice.
01:51:47
◼
►
But I think once you go the extra step of saying,
01:51:49
◼
►
oh, and by the way, my app is essentially a front end
01:51:51
◼
►
for an API that has nothing to do with me,
01:51:54
◼
►
you will have to ride that bear in the Steve Ballmer sense.
01:51:58
◼
►
You will have to continue to chase that API.
01:52:02
◼
►
wherever that API goes, you don't have control over it,
01:52:05
◼
►
and wherever it goes, you have to follow it,
01:52:06
◼
►
or your app doesn't work, or breaks, or is worse.
01:52:08
◼
►
And so that argues for,
01:52:10
◼
►
unless you're just gonna give up on the app
01:52:11
◼
►
after a year or something,
01:52:12
◼
►
that argues for some tiny little subscription fee,
01:52:15
◼
►
or a one-time purchase that's enough
01:52:18
◼
►
to fund your ongoing maintenance and development
01:52:21
◼
►
for what you think the life of the app is going to be.
01:52:24
◼
►
- Yeah, and that's what makes it tough,
01:52:26
◼
►
is if I knew for sure that it was free forever,
01:52:29
◼
►
I would probably just charge, like I always do,
01:52:32
◼
►
like a one-time fee and call it a day.
01:52:34
◼
►
But even considering the Twitter debacle
01:52:39
◼
►
from a month or two back,
01:52:41
◼
►
I still feel like it makes sense to account
01:52:45
◼
►
for the possibility of, oh, they've decided to charge me.
01:52:50
◼
►
That money's gotta come from somewhere,
01:52:53
◼
►
otherwise I am utterly doomed.
01:52:55
◼
►
And so it seems to me like a subscription
01:52:59
◼
►
is the right answer.
01:53:00
◼
►
Now, I echo what you're saying, Marco,
01:53:02
◼
►
that if I was really going for a money grab,
01:53:06
◼
►
without question, advertisements,
01:53:09
◼
►
and then, you know, an unlock,
01:53:10
◼
►
or, you know, a remove ads unlock or whatever,
01:53:13
◼
►
that would make way more sense
01:53:16
◼
►
and surely be way more lucrative.
01:53:19
◼
►
But I just don't want to do that, I don't think.
01:53:22
◼
►
- And that's fair.
01:53:23
◼
►
That's a totally valid answer.
01:53:24
◼
►
- And the advantage of having ATP and analog
01:53:29
◼
►
and the apps that I have is that in terms of finances,
01:53:34
◼
►
I don't need to do that, or at least not today.
01:53:37
◼
►
Ask me again in a week, but sitting here now,
01:53:40
◼
►
I don't need to do that.
01:53:41
◼
►
I don't need this thing to go gangbusters
01:53:44
◼
►
in order to put food on the table.
01:53:46
◼
►
And so I'd rather do something that I'm,
01:53:50
◼
►
well, this is gonna sound a little flippant, and I'm sorry,
01:53:52
◼
►
but I'd rather do something I'm extremely proud of
01:53:55
◼
►
than junk the app up with ads that I don't control.
01:53:58
◼
►
I think Overcast is a bit of a weird exception
01:54:00
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because that's your own ads,
01:54:01
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and that's a very different beast.
01:54:03
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But that's not something I could do.
01:54:05
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- And also the major selling proposition of your app
01:54:07
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is it's like that other thing you're familiar with,
01:54:09
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but not junked up, and ads are part of that.
01:54:11
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Right, and so you'd have to have like an asterisk,
01:54:13
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►
like oh, unless you have the free version,
01:54:15
◼
►
which is what most people--
01:54:16
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►
- Less junked up.
01:54:18
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- Right, there's fewer pieces of junk, but there's still--
01:54:21
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- It's like when Twitter tried to, you know,
01:54:23
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like a Twitter Blue, they said,
01:54:24
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"Pay for Twitter Blue and you'll get fewer ads."
01:54:26
◼
►
- Yeah, right.
01:54:27
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- Not no ads, just fewer ads.
01:54:29
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What does that mean?
01:54:30
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- It's like my New York Times subscription.
01:54:32
◼
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- Mm-hmm, yeah.
01:54:33
◼
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- I pay to have the worst reading experience in their app.
01:54:36
◼
►
Anyway. - Hooray!
01:54:37
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- No, but keep in mind though,
01:54:39
◼
►
this is a double-edged sword.
01:54:41
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People's alternative is to just go to IMDb or whatever
01:54:45
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and get this information for free covered in ads.
01:54:47
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So if you are offering something covered in ads too,
01:54:50
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that's gonna hurt you a little bit.
01:54:51
◼
►
But also, if you're putting up a paywall too soon,
01:54:54
◼
►
that's also gonna hurt you a lot
01:54:55
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►
because people are gonna try this app,
01:54:58
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they're like, oh, this is kinda nice.
01:54:59
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It's like IMDB, but nice.
01:55:01
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Then they're gonna slam into a paywall,
01:55:02
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and most of them are gonna be like, all right, bye.
01:55:05
◼
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- That's exactly right.
01:55:06
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- So it is gonna, like, if your paywall is too,
01:55:10
◼
►
you know, too aggressive, people are gonna bounce right out,
01:55:13
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►
and then word of mouth isn't gonna happen,
01:55:15
◼
►
ranking isn't gonna happen, no one's gonna use it.
01:55:17
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►
If you have the paywall be too generous
01:55:20
◼
►
and give too much away for free,
01:55:22
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►
you'll make no money because nobody will go past the paywall.
01:55:25
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So it's a hard thing to do.
01:55:28
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►
I mean, look, developers have debates and arguments
01:55:30
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and anguish about this all the time,
01:55:33
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►
because this is a very hard problem to solve.
01:55:35
◼
►
And I mean, look, it took me a long time
01:55:38
◼
►
to get it right in Overcast.
01:55:39
◼
►
It took me like three or four years
01:55:40
◼
►
before I came up with a system I have now
01:55:42
◼
►
that fortunately does work for me,
01:55:45
◼
►
but it took a while to get there.
01:55:46
◼
►
It took a lot of attempts,
01:55:47
◼
►
a lot of different systems to do it.
01:55:49
◼
►
So I can't necessarily say anything's gonna work.
01:55:53
◼
►
I think ads, the ad-based business model
01:55:56
◼
►
with the option to pay to remove them
01:55:58
◼
►
is the cleanest conceptually,
01:56:01
◼
►
and it is the best in terms of maximizing
01:56:04
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►
the number of people you will get to install the app,
01:56:06
◼
►
the number of people who keep it installed
01:56:08
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►
and who will keep using it,
01:56:09
◼
►
and the number of people who,
01:56:10
◼
►
and the amount of money you make.
01:56:11
◼
►
Like all of that will be maximized if you have ads
01:56:15
◼
►
and an option to remove the ads for some x per year
01:56:18
◼
►
or x one time or whatever.
01:56:20
◼
►
That will make you the most money, you get the most users.
01:56:22
◼
►
But if that's not the app you wanna make,
01:56:25
◼
►
then don't do it.
01:56:25
◼
►
That's not, you know, no one's forcing you to do this.
01:56:28
◼
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So you should make the app that you wanna make.
01:56:31
◼
►
And so I totally get that.
01:56:33
◼
►
So the question is then what do you do?
01:56:35
◼
►
Subscription does concern me from the point of view
01:56:38
◼
►
of the API thing.
01:56:39
◼
►
Like, you know, that's part of why the ad option
01:56:43
◼
►
makes that really clean.
01:56:44
◼
►
As long as the app works, you are seeing ads
01:56:47
◼
►
and we are making money.
01:56:49
◼
►
As soon as the app stops working, you'll stop using it,
01:56:52
◼
►
and everything stops, and that's clean.
01:56:55
◼
►
Anything you do involving taking people's money
01:56:59
◼
►
is going to be less clean than that,
01:57:01
◼
►
and could bite you in the butt
01:57:02
◼
►
if things go badly down the road with the provider.
01:57:05
◼
►
- I wouldn't worry about that,
01:57:06
◼
►
especially if you stick to monthly
01:57:07
◼
►
and don't even do an annual or something,
01:57:09
◼
►
but whatever, the whole thing where Apple's gonna
01:57:12
◼
►
refund everybody for the Twitter apps
01:57:14
◼
►
'cause they shut it down or whatever,
01:57:15
◼
►
that's an extreme scenario, and I feel like
01:57:17
◼
►
the odds of that happening again are low,
01:57:19
◼
►
And if they happen, yeah, you just eat that.
01:57:21
◼
►
And if you're not expecting this to be your main source of income
01:57:25
◼
►
that's going to bankrupt you if that happens,
01:57:26
◼
►
then you would just be like, oh, that'll
01:57:27
◼
►
be a bummer if it happens.
01:57:28
◼
►
But honestly, the odds of it are so low.
01:57:31
◼
►
Is the movie database run by a giant jerk?
01:57:33
◼
►
Probably not.
01:57:34
◼
►
Or at least not an Elon Musk caliber jerk.
01:57:37
◼
►
So I wouldn't spend too much time fretting about that.
01:57:40
◼
►
I mean, so many apps on the App Store have subscriptions.
01:57:42
◼
►
And many of them have a thing that if it was run by a jerk
01:57:48
◼
►
like Elon who cut the thing off with nobody noticed,
01:57:49
◼
►
they'd be in the same situation.
01:57:51
◼
►
It just doesn't happen that often.
01:57:52
◼
►
That's why it was so shocking when he did it,
01:57:53
◼
►
that it is not a common thing
01:57:55
◼
►
and I don't expect it to be a common thing.
01:57:56
◼
►
So I wouldn't lose too much sleep over that.
01:57:58
◼
►
- Well, and furthermore, I think the difference is,
01:58:01
◼
►
is that even if that were to happen,
01:58:03
◼
►
it is unlikely, not impossible,
01:58:05
◼
►
but unlikely it would be flick of a switch,
01:58:08
◼
►
like it basically was for the Twitter apps.
01:58:10
◼
►
I think in all likelihood-- - That's what I'm saying.
01:58:12
◼
►
They'd phase it out and you can sunset the app
01:58:14
◼
►
and it would, you know, whatever.
01:58:15
◼
►
- Yeah, so the other thing to consider
01:58:17
◼
►
is when we, fancy iOS people,
01:58:22
◼
►
when we Apple enthusiasts and podcasters in this space,
01:58:26
◼
►
when we think about value of an app,
01:58:29
◼
►
we are thinking of it from our perspective,
01:58:31
◼
►
from what we think is valuable,
01:58:32
◼
►
from what we think is a reasonable price,
01:58:34
◼
►
and from the quality level that we set for ourselves
01:58:37
◼
►
as kind of a community.
01:58:39
◼
►
If you look at the App Store, it's not that.
01:58:42
◼
►
It's very far from that.
01:58:44
◼
►
pretty much everything else in the app store,
01:58:47
◼
►
it's a ton of garbage with massive quantities of ads,
01:58:52
◼
►
tricky upsell things that try to shove you
01:58:54
◼
►
into a subscription deceptively,
01:58:57
◼
►
and then every app wants like $2 a week from you.
01:59:02
◼
►
Oh, you wanna be able to crop photos?
01:59:05
◼
►
That's the app store.
01:59:06
◼
►
That's the market you're in.
01:59:08
◼
►
Most people's phones are filled with garbage apps
01:59:12
◼
►
to crop photos and stuff that are, you know,
01:59:15
◼
►
these thinly veiled subscription scams
01:59:17
◼
►
that are full of ads and are charging them six bucks a week
01:59:21
◼
►
and just like extracting as much as possible from people.
01:59:23
◼
►
Like that's most of the app store.
01:59:26
◼
►
So first of all, it doesn't take much to be better than that.
01:59:29
◼
►
Second of all, that's the price expectation
01:59:36
◼
►
or ad expectation that people have of apps
01:59:39
◼
►
'cause that's what most apps are.
01:59:41
◼
►
Most apps are not the boutique apps from people
01:59:44
◼
►
who we know on formerly Twitter are now massed on.
01:59:46
◼
►
That's not most apps.
01:59:48
◼
►
Most apps that most people are using are big corporate apps
01:59:51
◼
►
like Facebook stuff that are just their own form
01:59:53
◼
►
of specially abusive garbage.
01:59:55
◼
►
And then the huge long tail of all the garbage
01:59:58
◼
►
photo cropping apps that are full of these
02:00:02
◼
►
massive weekly subscriptions and stuff like that.
02:00:05
◼
►
So that's the market you're playing into here.
02:00:08
◼
►
So it's tricky.
02:00:09
◼
►
It can be tricky to figure out what's right for you.
02:00:11
◼
►
I think if you really don't wanna do ads,
02:00:13
◼
►
which it sounds like you don't, and that's fine, again,
02:00:15
◼
►
if you really don't wanna do ads, then do a subscription,
02:00:19
◼
►
but keep in mind with the pricing of it
02:00:21
◼
►
that a lot of people are gonna bounce right off.
02:00:24
◼
►
I mean, there is kind of an argument to be made
02:00:28
◼
►
for a one-time purchase, because I think people
02:00:32
◼
►
are so burned by subscriptions recently.
02:00:35
◼
►
I think a one-time purchase is seen as refreshing
02:00:39
◼
►
to a lot of people, and since you don't have
02:00:41
◼
►
ongoing server costs for this now,
02:00:44
◼
►
and you probably-- - Yet, yet.
02:00:46
◼
►
- Well, and then maybe you could change your mind
02:00:48
◼
►
down the road, but since you don't have ongoing costs now,
02:00:51
◼
►
there is something to be said for that,
02:00:53
◼
►
but I think ultimately I would probably agree
02:00:55
◼
►
with Underscore, you should probably have recurring revenue,
02:00:59
◼
►
but that will turn more people off at the door,
02:01:02
◼
►
so you kinda have to price it accordingly,
02:01:04
◼
►
and you can with App Store subscriptions,
02:01:07
◼
►
they recently did add the option,
02:01:09
◼
►
which I think I might at some point use,
02:01:11
◼
►
that you can raise the price of a subscription
02:01:14
◼
►
without losing all your old subscribers.
02:01:15
◼
►
You couldn't do that before.
02:01:16
◼
►
You couldn't do that before about,
02:01:17
◼
►
I think a year or two ago.
02:01:19
◼
►
They added it for Disney+
02:01:21
◼
►
and they made it available for everybody.
02:01:23
◼
►
So, or was it HBO?
02:01:24
◼
►
One of those.
02:01:25
◼
►
Anyway, one thing you could do,
02:01:27
◼
►
'cause my worry with subscriptions would have been
02:01:29
◼
►
if you're charging people a buck or two a month,
02:01:33
◼
►
and then you all of a sudden have to pay for your API access
02:01:36
◼
►
and it's more than that, that could be a problem for you.
02:01:40
◼
►
But you don't have to worry about that.
02:01:41
◼
►
So what I would say is start people on a subscription plan,
02:01:46
◼
►
but make it a really cheap one.
02:01:49
◼
►
If you have to raise prices down the road
02:01:51
◼
►
because some API cost happens, so be it.
02:01:55
◼
►
If not, or until then, you will just keep making
02:01:58
◼
►
lots of sales that you wouldn't have made otherwise
02:02:02
◼
►
if it was too expensive.
02:02:03
◼
►
One other consideration.
02:02:05
◼
►
If you want to minimize your refund liability down the road,
02:02:09
◼
►
if things go really bad, monthly would be better than annual.
02:02:13
◼
►
But that being said, if you want it to seem really cheap,
02:02:19
◼
►
annual's the way to go.
02:02:21
◼
►
- Right, yep, exactly.
02:02:22
◼
►
And that's what I'm struggling against is I know
02:02:26
◼
►
that anyone who is likely to already have had an interest
02:02:31
◼
►
in the sorts of thing that Flook Up,
02:02:34
◼
►
or whatever I end up calling it, does,
02:02:36
◼
►
it probably already has the IMDb app installed
02:02:39
◼
►
on their phone.
02:02:40
◼
►
So I have to overcome free and already working.
02:02:44
◼
►
And that's tough.
02:02:46
◼
►
So my current thought, which I have no idea
02:02:50
◼
►
if it's wise or not, is $6 a year,
02:02:53
◼
►
because it's like 50 cents a month, that's not that much.
02:02:57
◼
►
And it doesn't seem too aggressive.
02:02:59
◼
►
Like, you know, even a dollar or two a month
02:03:02
◼
►
seems like kind of a lot to me.
02:03:04
◼
►
And so $6 a year, it's more than nothing,
02:03:08
◼
►
but it's like-- - Do eight.
02:03:10
◼
►
- It's a coffee, it's Starbucks or something like that.
02:03:13
◼
►
Do eight, what makes you say that?
02:03:15
◼
►
- 7.99 is a nice looking price.
02:03:17
◼
►
It still is under 10 bucks, people think it's cheap,
02:03:19
◼
►
but it doesn't seem that much more expensive than 5.99
02:03:24
◼
►
and you'll get more money and I think it's the same
02:03:29
◼
►
perceived price class.
02:03:31
◼
►
I think also you're talking about the one-time cost people are tired of subscriptions and
02:03:36
◼
►
so on and so forth.
02:03:37
◼
►
It depends on how you're looking at the app because if you start with a subscription and
02:03:43
◼
►
if you price it high that it scares a lot of people away, if the app has any kind of
02:03:49
◼
►
success at all and you decide, "Yes, this is worth me working on," you can make the
02:03:53
◼
►
app grow into your price.
02:03:55
◼
►
Whereas if you started the app with a fixed price, you will grow out of your price.
02:04:00
◼
►
Like if the app turns out to be popular, then you will make the app better and better, and
02:04:04
◼
►
soon the app is good enough that you shouldn't be charging a one-time price of $5 or something.
02:04:09
◼
►
And it's so much harder, I feel like, to go from a one-time price of $5 and say, "Hey
02:04:14
◼
►
everybody who bought this app that's actually getting subtraction and becoming popular,
02:04:18
◼
►
It's a subscription now."
02:04:19
◼
►
Whereas if you started out at that subscription that was kind of expensive, and the app grows
02:04:23
◼
►
into it, the original customers are satisfied.
02:04:25
◼
►
Because they're like, "I bought it when it was a 1.0, and now it's so much better, and
02:04:29
◼
►
I'm paying the same subscription.
02:04:30
◼
►
And then when you grow into the price,
02:04:32
◼
►
people look at the price and aren't as scared away
02:04:34
◼
►
because it's a better app now.
02:04:35
◼
►
Like it just seems like,
02:04:37
◼
►
I feel like I've seen that happen too often
02:04:39
◼
►
where someone underprices it initially
02:04:40
◼
►
'cause the app's not that good,
02:04:41
◼
►
and everyone's app's not that good
02:04:42
◼
►
in the first release, right?
02:04:43
◼
►
But you have to think about if this app works,
02:04:46
◼
►
if it works in the market at all,
02:04:47
◼
►
what will the app be like?
02:04:48
◼
►
And I always feel like it's better to price it like that
02:04:51
◼
►
because that produces the least amount of regret
02:04:53
◼
►
among your customers, right?
02:04:55
◼
►
Because the people who are willing to buy it early
02:04:57
◼
►
when it was a 1.0 and it seemed kind of expensive,
02:04:59
◼
►
They'll be happy when your app improves and grows into it.
02:05:01
◼
►
And the people who weren't, they'll
02:05:03
◼
►
only arrive after your app goes into its price.
02:05:05
◼
►
But in both of those scenarios, everyone more or less
02:05:08
◼
►
is satisfied with and understands the deal.
02:05:10
◼
►
Whereas I hate seeing apps that's like, oh, it's just
02:05:13
◼
►
a 1.0 and it's not that good, so it's a $3 one-time purchase.
02:05:16
◼
►
And then two years into development,
02:05:18
◼
►
the app is amazing and the developer's not making any money
02:05:20
◼
►
because the development costs and the maintenance overhead
02:05:25
◼
►
But they feel like they can't increase the price
02:05:26
◼
►
let alone go to subscription.
02:05:27
◼
►
because you know what happens when you go
02:05:29
◼
►
from a fixed price to subscription, everyone hates it.
02:05:31
◼
►
- Yeah, yeah, and that's the other thing I'm looking at
02:05:34
◼
►
is I don't ever wanna have to renege
02:05:38
◼
►
and go into subscription.
02:05:40
◼
►
It's another thing if I choose to, I'm making this up,
02:05:43
◼
►
but if I choose to do like a forever unlock
02:05:45
◼
►
for $100 or something like that, again, I'm making this up,
02:05:48
◼
►
that I feel like that's different,
02:05:50
◼
►
but to go from a one-time only IAP to, oh, just kidding,
02:05:55
◼
►
I'll use your money periodically now,
02:05:57
◼
►
That's just really, really hard.
02:06:00
◼
►
That's just really hard selling.
02:06:01
◼
►
- Buy my apps to the forever unlock price of $5.
02:06:05
◼
►
- God, I'm still regretting.
02:06:07
◼
►
I sold for, I think, one year,
02:06:10
◼
►
Overcast's first year in 2014, I sold a $5 unlock.
02:06:14
◼
►
- How did I not buy that?
02:06:15
◼
►
Is it because I was on the beta?
02:06:17
◼
►
- Probably, or maybe you might have bought it.
02:06:19
◼
►
So I have a special case in the app.
02:06:21
◼
►
So if you have that $5 unlock,
02:06:23
◼
►
you don't get the premium feature of the uploads,
02:06:26
◼
►
'cause that's the monthly S3 cost that I have to pay,
02:06:29
◼
►
and that wasn't there back then, that came later.
02:06:32
◼
►
But you do have no ads shown if you have
02:06:35
◼
►
that original unlock because there were no ads
02:06:37
◼
►
in the original app.
02:06:38
◼
►
And I have thought for a long time,
02:06:41
◼
►
I actually track in my analytics,
02:06:42
◼
►
how many of those people are still using the app?
02:06:46
◼
►
And it's a lot of people.
02:06:47
◼
►
It's a substantial portion of my user base
02:06:50
◼
►
and I've thought for a while,
02:06:52
◼
►
I should really end that ad exclusion from them
02:06:54
◼
►
'cause these people paid $5 nine years ago,
02:06:58
◼
►
and I'm now, literally just four days ago, five days ago,
02:07:03
◼
►
my web host just raised prices 20% for no reason.
02:07:07
◼
►
So it's like, now my costs just went up by 20%, awesome.
02:07:09
◼
►
Like, and I've been paying all these server costs
02:07:12
◼
►
for nine years to support these people.
02:07:15
◼
►
- And yet those people will be,
02:07:16
◼
►
they'll be so mad when it happens too,
02:07:18
◼
►
because if you explain to them,
02:07:20
◼
►
you paid $5 nine years ago, they'll say,
02:07:22
◼
►
and kind of rightly, yeah, but nine years ago,
02:07:24
◼
►
you said this is a forever unlock for five dollars and you're bad right? Oh yeah
02:07:29
◼
►
that's why I haven't done it because I know it'll result in a million one-star
02:07:32
◼
►
reviews and the reality is customers hold that one-star review system it
02:07:39
◼
►
basically holds us hostage as app developers like we can't do anything
02:07:41
◼
►
about that those like that's why I haven't done like I'm I'm losing money
02:07:45
◼
►
every single time those people use my app but it's not worth the the hostage
02:07:50
◼
►
situation of having all these people one-star review me
02:07:55
◼
►
and kill my business.
02:07:56
◼
►
So I can't really do it, I just have to support them forever.
02:07:59
◼
►
So, Casey, don't do that maybe.
02:08:02
◼
►
But at least, but again, you don't have server cost yet,
02:08:05
◼
►
at least, to worry about, so that's a huge difference.
02:08:08
◼
►
- But you do have that API to chase.
02:08:09
◼
►
Like, I mean, you're like, oh, they'll be free forever.
02:08:11
◼
►
Does that mean it won't change forever?
02:08:13
◼
►
Right? - Yeah, no,
02:08:14
◼
►
you're exactly right. - Like, they could change
02:08:15
◼
►
the API or they can add things to the API
02:08:17
◼
►
or they can break the API and like, oops,
02:08:19
◼
►
they rolled out a new release and it broke your app
02:08:21
◼
►
and now you're scrambling to fix that.
02:08:22
◼
►
Like they didn't do that to screw you,
02:08:23
◼
►
it's just a thing that happens
02:08:25
◼
►
because you don't control them.
02:08:26
◼
►
They probably don't even know you exist
02:08:28
◼
►
considering they won't answer your emails, right?
02:08:29
◼
►
Which means that things they do
02:08:32
◼
►
can affect your app immediately with no notice
02:08:34
◼
►
and that is the type of thing
02:08:36
◼
►
that you have to be willing to wrangle.
02:08:38
◼
►
So either the app works and you're on board to wrangle that,
02:08:41
◼
►
in which case you kinda need some minimum amount of money
02:08:43
◼
►
to keep doing that,
02:08:44
◼
►
whether it's from acquiring new customers or subscription,
02:08:46
◼
►
or the app doesn't work
02:08:47
◼
►
and then you just sunset it and whatever.
02:08:49
◼
►
Right, exactly. And so that's why I'm leaning towards subscription. And for what it's worth,
02:08:54
◼
►
I was always planning on having like a one week free trial. But you still, it's still tough,
02:09:01
◼
►
because I still need to have some amount of functionality that is there to give you a taste,
02:09:08
◼
►
so that when I present the paywall, you're not like, "No." And so in a Slack that we're all a
02:09:14
◼
►
a part of, you know, I've been going back and forth with a few mutual friends where,
02:09:18
◼
►
you know, initially I was told, and I think justifiably, "Well, my paywall was too aggressive
02:09:22
◼
►
too soon," et cetera. And my thinking at the time was, "Well, you know, that's what the
02:09:27
◼
►
one-week free trial is for," but I can see how that would appear to be exploitative and
02:09:30
◼
►
that it would appear that I'm just hoping and praying that people forget to cancel that
02:09:35
◼
►
free trial. And so—
02:09:36
◼
►
I wouldn't characterize it that way, for the record, but go ahead.
02:09:40
◼
►
- Well, and so, I'm happy to be convinced
02:09:43
◼
►
that I'm wrong about this as well,
02:09:44
◼
►
but so I moved the paywall back a little bit,
02:09:47
◼
►
but then some mutual friends were saying,
02:09:50
◼
►
"Well, you've moved it back so far
02:09:52
◼
►
"that now I probably would never bother
02:09:53
◼
►
"paying for the app at all."
02:09:55
◼
►
And that's also not good.
02:09:56
◼
►
So I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out
02:09:59
◼
►
where is the appropriate line,
02:10:02
◼
►
and where do I say, "Tough noogies,
02:10:04
◼
►
"you're gonna have to sign up now."
02:10:06
◼
►
- I haven't been in that conversation too much.
02:10:07
◼
►
I've seen a little bit of it,
02:10:08
◼
►
but has the idea come up of,
02:10:11
◼
►
which used to be very common in shareware type things,
02:10:13
◼
►
of allowing the full functionality,
02:10:14
◼
►
you're living it a number of times,
02:10:16
◼
►
and saying if someone actually wants to buy the app,
02:10:18
◼
►
they'll use it more than that number of times,
02:10:20
◼
►
and so they get to experience the full breadth
02:10:22
◼
►
of the functionality,
02:10:23
◼
►
but then after they use it the fifth time,
02:10:24
◼
►
it's like, okay, well, you've used up your four free uses
02:10:28
◼
►
for the day, or whatever,
02:10:29
◼
►
like that type of thing where you're not choosing,
02:10:31
◼
►
not simply choosing functionality that is in front of
02:10:34
◼
►
or behind the paywall,
02:10:35
◼
►
but instead following usage patterns
02:10:38
◼
►
saying you can use the app this amount
02:10:40
◼
►
over this period of time for free,
02:10:42
◼
►
but once you exceed that, you have to pay.
02:10:44
◼
►
Presuming that someone who gets enough utility of it
02:10:46
◼
►
will use it more than that number of times
02:10:48
◼
►
and hit the paywall, but they will hit it
02:10:50
◼
►
after having experienced the full functionality
02:10:52
◼
►
of your app, you know what I mean?
02:10:53
◼
►
- Yeah, and that actually was recommended earlier today,
02:10:55
◼
►
and I'm probably gonna go that route.
02:10:58
◼
►
I gotta see how ugly it would be to implement, but--
02:11:00
◼
►
- You're just moving the problem to a different place,
02:11:02
◼
►
which is like, okay, but what is the right number of uses?
02:11:04
◼
►
- Exactly, exactly.
02:11:05
◼
►
- Over what period of time, right?
02:11:07
◼
►
Because what if someone watches like one movie a week, they're never gonna hit it, right?
02:11:11
◼
►
That's exactly right.
02:11:12
◼
►
And I think it would be a fairly small number.
02:11:16
◼
►
Like it would be enough for what I would consider to be a day or two of average use.
02:11:23
◼
►
And then again, I would stick with the free trial, I think.
02:11:26
◼
►
And if people really only use the app for a week in a day or something like that, and
02:11:31
◼
►
then that's it, okay, then maybe it's not for them.
02:11:33
◼
►
I don't want to take your money unless you want to I want I want you to give me your money
02:11:38
◼
►
I don't want to take your money. You know what I mean?
02:11:40
◼
►
Marco was saying about what the App Store is actually like what the App Store is actually like is you launch the app and you
02:11:46
◼
►
Can't do a single damn thing until you absolutely positively agree to start a free trial right now
02:11:51
◼
►
Which is yeah closer to the way this was that's how the App Store works
02:11:56
◼
►
Like there's so few apps
02:11:57
◼
►
You can't even see what the UI looks like until you agree to pay for the in-app purchase
02:12:02
◼
►
which has a seven day free trial, which is nice,
02:12:05
◼
►
and you can cancel and pay nothing,
02:12:06
◼
►
but we're hoping you forget.
02:12:08
◼
►
- Yeah, and keep in mind also, Casey,
02:12:10
◼
►
I never make a thing about this
02:12:12
◼
►
because I always forget too,
02:12:13
◼
►
with my people who give me test flights,
02:12:15
◼
►
but subscriptions on test flights are horrible.
02:12:18
◼
►
- They suck so bad, it makes me type my password.
02:12:20
◼
►
Casey, make it stop.
02:12:21
◼
►
- And then they only last like a day,
02:12:24
◼
►
you know, and then they reset.
02:12:25
◼
►
- Yeah, and then you have to type your password again,
02:12:26
◼
►
and my password is long and complicated,
02:12:28
◼
►
and it's hard, it's just I can't do it.
02:12:30
◼
►
- Yeah, like anybody out there
02:12:31
◼
►
who's trying to send a test flight out to your friends
02:12:33
◼
►
to test an internet purchase.
02:12:34
◼
►
- Or Apple fixed this.
02:12:35
◼
►
- Don't bother.
02:12:36
◼
►
Like, yeah, just don't even bother
02:12:38
◼
►
because a test flight paywall sucks.
02:12:40
◼
►
It's impossible.
02:12:42
◼
►
It drives people crazy.
02:12:43
◼
►
You will lose everybody.
02:12:44
◼
►
Everyone will jump off your beta.
02:12:45
◼
►
It's hard enough to get people
02:12:47
◼
►
to keep beta testing your app.
02:12:48
◼
►
Like, a paywall instantly makes all your friends say,
02:12:51
◼
►
ah, forget it, and they quit and they move on.
02:12:53
◼
►
- But of course you want to test the IAPs.
02:12:55
◼
►
You actually do want people to test it,
02:12:56
◼
►
but they don't wanna do that
02:12:57
◼
►
'cause it's not like the real experience.
02:12:59
◼
►
The real experience you can pay
02:13:00
◼
►
by double tapping the Home button and using your face.
02:13:02
◼
►
But not in test flight, because reason is that Apple--
02:13:05
◼
►
so it's just such a-- this is just a beta tester thing.
02:13:08
◼
►
But it's not-- regular customers don't have to deal with this.
02:13:10
◼
►
But I've seen a couple different purchases.
02:13:12
◼
►
One, to make the restore purchases thing,
02:13:15
◼
►
just always say yes, totally, you're fine.
02:13:19
◼
►
So you leave all the payables in there,
02:13:21
◼
►
but then you present people with, like, oh,
02:13:23
◼
►
restore purchases.
02:13:24
◼
►
And anybody who taps your store purchases says,
02:13:26
◼
►
oh, you totally paid.
02:13:27
◼
►
And then so you would avoid the whole authentication problem.
02:13:29
◼
►
but then you're not exercising your IAP flow really, so.
02:13:32
◼
►
- Right, exactly. - It's a pain.
02:13:33
◼
►
- Yeah, there's no good answer. (laughs)
02:13:35
◼
►
- The good answer is for Apple to make TestFlight IAP work
02:13:38
◼
►
like the real one does.
02:13:40
◼
►
- Yeah, exactly.
02:13:41
◼
►
I'll have to add some sort of hack.
02:13:42
◼
►
I hadn't considered that, but you're exactly right.
02:13:44
◼
►
- But honestly, I mean, the whole idea of having it be,
02:13:48
◼
►
basically you have to subscribe to do almost anything,
02:13:51
◼
►
but it's a free trial, that's fine.
02:13:54
◼
►
I don't think that's that bad of a solution.
02:13:58
◼
►
and there's a reason why so many apps do that,
02:14:00
◼
►
'cause it works, it's effective,
02:14:02
◼
►
and people like free trials, people like that,
02:14:05
◼
►
that's not a bad idea, honestly.
02:14:09
◼
►
And so many apps, as John was saying,
02:14:10
◼
►
so many apps in the App Store, that's how they work,
02:14:13
◼
►
that are way crappier than yours,
02:14:16
◼
►
that have way less value to people.
02:14:18
◼
►
- But you don't have to put it literally
02:14:19
◼
►
the first thing that they see.
02:14:21
◼
►
You can give 'em one or two searches for free, and then--
02:14:23
◼
►
- Make it a third thing they see.
02:14:25
◼
►
- Yeah, and that's the thing,
02:14:26
◼
►
So like at first my thought was oh you I forget exactly where I put the line, but basically you can search
02:14:33
◼
►
But you can't drill into anything like it'll show you search results
02:14:37
◼
►
But then you don't get to see so let's say I did a search for Ryan Reynolds
02:14:41
◼
►
You could see that Oh Ryan Reynolds is right there at the top
02:14:43
◼
►
That's what I expect but the moment you try to drill into Ryan Reynolds and see like the details about Ryan Reynolds
02:14:49
◼
►
Then then it would throw up the paywall, which is I think probably a little too aggressive
02:14:54
◼
►
So now, you know, what I was thinking is, in the way it currently is, which is probably too lenient, is,
02:14:59
◼
►
"Oh, you can see the results, like you can go from search to details, but anything that's linked from there."
02:15:06
◼
►
So like, if you're looking at Ryan Reynolds,
02:15:08
◼
►
you couldn't drill into Deadpool or any of the other any of the other roles that he's had.
02:15:12
◼
►
At that point, when you try to drill into one of Ryan Reynolds's roles, then it would throw up the paywall.
02:15:17
◼
►
But then that means, worst case, you just go back up and search for Deadpool, and then you get to see Deadpool, you know?
02:15:22
◼
►
And so I think that's a little too permissive,
02:15:24
◼
►
and I'm not sure what the right answer is.
02:15:26
◼
►
But I mean, certainly, in a Slack that we're all a part of,
02:15:30
◼
►
there was a visceral reaction that I was,
02:15:33
◼
►
that a free trial alone,
02:15:35
◼
►
and putting up the paywall that quickly
02:15:36
◼
►
was absolutely the wrong answer,
02:15:38
◼
►
and I'm a fool for even thinking it was okay.
02:15:41
◼
►
So I don't know, I gotta figure out what the right answer is
02:15:44
◼
►
and obviously I don't know.
02:15:46
◼
►
- Now keep in mind also, once you've decided,
02:15:48
◼
►
all right, I'm gonna go subscription
02:15:49
◼
►
with a free trial of this duration
02:15:51
◼
►
with this annual price,
02:15:53
◼
►
then you can tweak the rest of it afterwards.
02:15:55
◼
►
You can ship that way and say,
02:15:57
◼
►
"All right, this is the business model, period."
02:15:59
◼
►
But then the detail of like,
02:16:00
◼
►
"Well, how much do you get for free?
02:16:01
◼
►
"When do I show the paywall?"
02:16:03
◼
►
That can change over time.
02:16:04
◼
►
You can play with that.
02:16:05
◼
►
- Yeah, that's exactly right.
02:16:06
◼
►
So, I don't know, we'll see.
02:16:08
◼
►
But I'm excited for it.
02:16:11
◼
►
I think, and I think it was Marco,
02:16:13
◼
►
but one of you said this earlier.
02:16:15
◼
►
This, I think, has an even bigger space
02:16:18
◼
►
or potential market than anything I've done so far.
02:16:21
◼
►
Like, well, Vignette was different,
02:16:23
◼
►
but that was short-lived and I got sunset real quick.
02:16:26
◼
►
But if you look at peak of view,
02:16:27
◼
►
you know, well, it's parents or people who hand their phones
02:16:29
◼
►
to other people a lot, and then masquerade.
02:16:31
◼
►
Well, it's people who actually care about privacy,
02:16:33
◼
►
which these days is almost no one.
02:16:34
◼
►
And I'm not saying that everyone in the world
02:16:37
◼
►
is looking for an IMDB replacement,
02:16:39
◼
►
but I think it's probably more people
02:16:41
◼
►
than are looking potentially for either of my other apps.
02:16:44
◼
►
And so here again, ignorance is bliss/less.
02:16:48
◼
►
- No, no, no lisp puns, we're not doing that.
02:16:52
◼
►
- So sitting here now, I'm hopeful.
02:16:55
◼
►
And again, I'm proud of the work.
02:16:57
◼
►
Like whether or not it's interesting to anyone,
02:16:59
◼
►
I'm proud of the work.
02:17:00
◼
►
And even if it ends up being a complete flop,
02:17:04
◼
►
I do think I'm getting better at my craft,
02:17:07
◼
►
which is what you were saying earlier, Marco,
02:17:08
◼
►
and I appreciate you having said that.
02:17:10
◼
►
I think I'm getting better at my craft
02:17:11
◼
►
and I am proud of that.
02:17:13
◼
►
It is not a perfect app.
02:17:14
◼
►
It is not flawless.
02:17:16
◼
►
It probably has bugs somewhere,
02:17:17
◼
►
although it's been reasonably bug-free so far,
02:17:19
◼
►
which I'm pretty proud of.
02:17:21
◼
►
But it's the best I think I've got going so far,
02:17:25
◼
►
and it's a little bit better, if not a lot better,
02:17:27
◼
►
than Masquerade, which was, I think,
02:17:29
◼
►
a little to a lot better than Peek-a-View.
02:17:32
◼
►
And so I'm making progress,
02:17:34
◼
►
and I'm pretty happy about that.
02:17:35
◼
►
And even in a worst-case scenario,
02:17:37
◼
►
this doesn't take off, ATP suddenly goes away,
02:17:39
◼
►
analog goes away, and I need to find a big boy job again,
02:17:42
◼
►
then I have something to show for what I've been doing
02:17:44
◼
►
for the last several years, right?
02:17:45
◼
►
And, well, in this case, the last couple of months,
02:17:47
◼
►
but more broadly, the last several years.
02:17:49
◼
►
And I think that's a positive thing as well.
02:17:51
◼
►
And I'm learning how to use new stuff.
02:17:53
◼
►
And all of these things, I think, are nothing but good.
02:17:57
◼
►
So even if the app flops,
02:17:59
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and certainly I hope it doesn't,
02:18:01
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but even if it flopped, I still feel pretty good
02:18:04
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about what I've learned
02:18:06
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and how I've grown during the process.