537: Worse Than All of Our Toilets


00:00:00   Have you have you loaded your phone with the appropriate number of fish concerts to last?

00:00:04   Whatever you might be doing over the next few weeks. Oh, yeah, they're always there. Fish season was a little bit light so far.

00:00:10   Most of their concert, most of their summer touring hasn't happened yet, but it's been it's been very strong goose month.

00:00:16   I'm still in goose season now and then fish season will resume once their tour resumes. And I believe a few weeks.

00:00:22   It's duck season. No, it's wabbit season. No, it's duck season. No, it's wabbit season.

00:00:26   So disappointing that goose doesn't spell the name wrong like fish does. That's true. How would they spell it like G O O C E?

00:00:33   Like how would they?

00:00:34   They just fit better with fish don't you think? Yeah, I guess. I think I've made the speech to you previously Marco,

00:00:40   but just to let you know, to reiterate how good you have it as a fish fan.

00:00:44   I am overjoyed that it is currently the summer concert tour season for Dave Matthews Band

00:00:51   because over the last year or two

00:00:55   Dave Matthews Band has been doing with Sirius XM the Friday Night Concert series.

00:00:59   So I can make backups for my own personal use of the recordings as broadcast over Sirius XM.

00:01:07   But I actually get soundboard recordings of live concerts.

00:01:12   I get one each week, just the Friday night one, and I have to make sure I record it as it's happening.

00:01:17   For you know, personal use only. Right, yes.

00:01:20   I get that one concert each week that sounds really good and then if I cared enough to grab any of the others

00:01:27   I'd be getting, you know, two microphones on a pole in the audience.

00:01:31   Meanwhile, while I'm doing this like an animal you pay what is, I think, the number doesn't matter,

00:01:39   but my recollection is it is not that much money. That's about ten bucks a show.

00:01:42   I mean, that's really not that bad.

00:01:44   I mean, obviously it adds up over the course of a summer, but it's not that bad.

00:01:46   I mean, you don't have to buy them all. I mean, I do, but it's ten bucks per three-hour show.

00:01:52   It's really not that bad.

00:01:53   And then you get a soundboard recording that's presumably mixed or mastered.

00:01:57   I don't know the difference, but yeah, it sounds pretty darn good all things told. Sounds great.

00:02:01   Meanwhile, I get one pretty decent recording a week for the summertime and I'm like overjoyed by this.

00:02:06   The Fish Live concerts that I buy, and by the way, Goose have been following the same playbook.

00:02:10   Like they put all their concert stuff on Bandcamp for ten bucks.

00:02:13   You know, it's pay what you want, ten buck minimum, and they're also just as good sounding.

00:02:18   And these shows, if you ever listen to a released live album by a band,

00:02:23   like a lot of times bands will release their own live albums of one really great show they did or do compilations.

00:02:28   It sounds that good. Every show sounds that good.

00:02:31   They're all properly mastered and mixed. It's pretty good.

00:02:36   So now I have two great bands in my life that do this and you still have kind of half of one at best.

00:02:41   I have one seventh of one. I mean, not that they record every night of the week, but you know what I'm saying.

00:02:46   It's just not fair, man. It's not fair.

00:02:50   And Dave Matthews Band, Fish was there first, unquestionably.

00:02:52   But Dave Matthews Band was one of the first mainstream bands that allowed taping and so on and so forth.

00:02:58   And they were, for the time, fairly internet forward.

00:03:01   But then Fish just was like, "Oh, really? Hold my beer. I'll show you how it's actually supposed to work."

00:03:06   And Dave Matthews Band is nothing in comparison, which is funny because I thought

00:03:11   and I very well could have this wrong, that Red Light Management, Korn Capshaw and his group,

00:03:16   I thought they managed both bands, but again, I could be lying to you.

00:03:19   They might. Who knows? I think what we have now learned here is that you need to listen to better music.

00:03:23   [Music]

00:03:26   All right, so let's do some follow-up. We have some—I'm not going to take the bait because we don't have time.

00:03:31   We have some anonymous feedback. We actually have a whole section of anonymous feedback.

00:03:37   It starts with anonymous feedback with regard to Apple mail delivery.

00:03:41   Deliveries to an Apple building address should work, but the shippers will actually deliver items

00:03:45   to a dedicated shipping and receiving warehouse instead of the listed address.

00:03:49   Executives have multiple levels of mail processing. Each executive may have different instructions

00:03:53   for what to do with deliveries before they even leave the warehouse, including opening the items

00:03:57   and doing security screening with chemical testing tools. Then they go to the executive assistant

00:04:01   for the recipient. Some executives have multiple levels of assistance. In summary, I'd expect mail

00:04:05   to John Turnus addressed to Apple Park to get to his assistant at least, which is pretty exciting.

00:04:10   I mean, who knows? But I'm not going to count my chickens, but that's pretty cool. And then a certain

00:04:14   somebody put a very cool and very interesting image in the show notes. I don't know that it'll

00:04:20   necessarily make it as chapter art or anything like that, but would you mind describing this for me, please, John?

00:04:24   This is just the tracking on the shirt that's going to John Turnus. It was delivered or whatever it says.

00:04:29   Delivered to agent for final delivery. Anyway, whatever that means. It's the U.S. Postal Service.

00:04:34   On May 27th. Today is the 29th. So I feel like it's this shirt has an entire work week to somehow

00:04:41   make it out of the shipping and receiving warehouse and to the appropriate executive assistant. And then

00:04:47   if that executive assistant decides to pass it on, we'll see. So there's a dim hope that John Turnus

00:04:52   may see the shirt before WWDC, but it feels kind of slim, especially if there's multiple levels of,

00:04:57   you know, assistance in front of him in the mail or whatever. So we did what we could.

00:05:03   The real tragedy here is that if there's going to be a Mac Pro announcement of some kind, and if

00:05:09   presumably John Turnus would be involved in such an announcement, they probably would have already

00:05:14   filmed it before the shirt arrived to him. Oh, that's true. I really don't think he'd be wearing it in the video.

00:05:20   I mean, yeah, it's unlikely. I'll give you that. But at least it could have been possible had we done it,

00:05:25   you know, maybe a month ago. Can you add, I cannot fathom, I agree, it would never happen in a trillion years.

00:05:32   It's a t-shirt. He doesn't. Oh, I know. But still, can you imagine how amazing that would be?

00:05:37   That would be, you know, when the connected, when the connected boys fell off their chairs,

00:05:42   justifiably, when Tim Cook was standing in front of their show art at WWDC a few years ago. Can you

00:05:48   imagine him wearing our shirt? Like again, it would never happen, but how amazing would that be?

00:05:55   That would be so freaking cool. I mean, we had ATP show art in the background of showing the podcast

00:06:00   up at WWDC session. We had Marco adding his own content to the proceedings by ringing the

00:06:07   bell on the file system thing. Right. So I feel like we've had our share of influencing the Apple

00:06:13   keynotes. Yeah, I guess fair enough. Fair enough. All right. And we have from an additional anonymous

00:06:19   Apple employee, they wanted us to know that they have already spotted someone wearing a Mac Pro

00:06:23   Believe shirt at Cafe Max, which is the cafeteria at Apple Park. And additionally, we got feedback,

00:06:29   I don't know if it was we or me got feedback with somebody documenting the fact that they were

00:06:32   wearing the Believe shirt in front of the Infinite Loop visitor center. I think it was maybe it was

00:06:37   an Infinite Loop, one of the visitor centers signs. So they were definitely on the Apple

00:06:41   campus with the Believe shirt, which made me very happy. Continuing with anonymous stuff,

00:06:46   but no longer about the shirts, we have some feedback about feedback. An anonymous Apple

00:06:50   engineer on Apple with regard to Apple's bug system writes, "I wish to express how deeply I

00:06:55   feel similarly frustrated with the bug resolution process. On my end, if I get a bug from a developer

00:07:00   and want to ask them a question, I can say, 'Please ask the developer technical question

00:07:04   XYZ,' and then assign the radar to a black hole. I have no idea if my technical information will

00:07:08   be conveyed the way I wrote it. I can't see what the developer says other than the initial report.

00:07:12   Everything else is through an intermediary. Often the response from the developer seems

00:07:15   totally unrelated to what I'd hoped to correspond about." Sounds like prison. Right? Isn't this how

00:07:20   you write to prisoners? Seriously, it's so, so true. Well, we can at least share your frustration,

00:07:26   anonymous person, that it seems like a black hole to us as well. Right? Isn't that great? That's

00:07:31   what we said. We said this last episode, but just to re-emphasize it, that the system doesn't work

00:07:35   for us outside of Apple and doesn't work for the people inside Apple either. Like, the thing that's

00:07:39   frustrating is they can't see anything we write except for the initial report, and they're not

00:07:43   allowed to converse directly. So they have to throw their information over the wall to an

00:07:46   intermediary and cross their fingers and hope that it's like a game of telephone that all

00:07:50   went through. And then they get a response back. It's like, "What? What does this response mean?"

00:07:54   But they didn't see what we sent. It's just, this is not a way to run a bug tracking system.

00:07:59   There are better ways. And I know secrecy is like, "Well, we can't have these people talking to each

00:08:04   other because once you get someone inside Apple talking to someone outside Apple,

00:08:07   inevitably there'll be leaks and blah, blah, blah." And it's like, just figure it out. There

00:08:11   are ways to do this to allow people to communicate effectively without everybody leaking secrets,

00:08:16   I believe. Because in the end, the people in the middle could also accidentally leak things

00:08:20   because they see what the person on the inside said. So putting one more layer there doesn't

00:08:24   necessarily make it so that leaks are impossible anymore. It's just that they would become a

00:08:28   more vague sort of game of telephone leaks that are mangled a little bit in transition.

00:08:32   - Yep. Matthew Fencelough writes, "With regard to bug reporting, I refuse to read this feedback

00:08:38   because even though I understand his point, I refuse to acknowledge it."

00:08:40   - No, I put it in there. I think there's an answer to this. I'll read it.

00:08:45   "As an outsider, it seems crazy to me that Apple would spend any time responding to non-security

00:08:49   related bug reports from developers who don't have on the order of at least hundreds or thousands of

00:08:53   sales in the app store. While I'm sure that John produces extremely high quality reports, it would

00:08:57   seem completely illogical for Apple to devote resources to reports from a developer that is

00:09:01   making incredibly niche apps. It seems like any serious bug is going to either be picked up by

00:09:05   one of the large developers or it will be so ubiquitous that they'll receive tons and tons

00:09:09   of reports. So it seems like it would be really wasteful to be paying much attention to the long

00:09:12   tail of individual small developer reports." So this might be what it seems like, but there's

00:09:18   a few unstated assumptions that are not true. One of them is that large developers are going to find

00:09:24   the bugs that they're most likely to find because they sell lots of copies or something. I'm not

00:09:28   even sure what the logic is, but I have to tell you that the first people to use a new API are not

00:09:33   going to be the biggest developers. Microsoft Office is not leaping on that API that they

00:09:38   introduced to WWC on day one. It's individual developers who have the sort of agility and

00:09:44   flexibility to try out the new API. Or someone writing a brand new app from scratch on that day,

00:09:49   they can jump on the new API. So big developers are not going to find the bugs first. And the

00:09:53   second thing is, just because a small developer who sells no apps finds a bug, doesn't mean that

00:09:59   bug doesn't also exist in Microsoft Office, in Adobe Photoshop, in the big applications.

00:10:04   Right? It's not like there's a separate set of APIs written for apps that don't sell a lot.

00:10:08   I use the same APIs as the apps that sell millions and millions of copies. Right? So it doesn't

00:10:14   really matter where the bug comes from. It's not like they're like, "Oh, we wouldn't bother servicing

00:10:18   their needs because I'm a dinky developer and I don't matter." Yeah, I am a dinky developer and

00:10:21   I don't matter to Apple. But the bug I found has really no relation to how many apps I sell

00:10:28   or anything like that. It's like this bug could be in Apple's app. This bug could be in the...

00:10:33   Like if there's a bug in some framework, I'm not using obscure frameworks. Right?

00:10:37   This bug could potentially affect everybody. And as for a secure related versus non-secure related,

00:10:42   any bug could potentially be secure related depending on how bad it is. Right?

00:10:45   So even though it seems like it's a waste of Apple's resources to pay attention to

00:10:50   bug reports from dinky developers, the correct take on that is like, it's a waste of Apple's time to

00:10:56   dedicate an employee... Like we talked about the person who's from a big gaming company,

00:11:01   they have dedicated Apple engineers and a Slack with them. That would be a waste of Apple's time.

00:11:04   They're not going to give individual developers like me or even Marco with a smallish number of

00:11:10   sales compared to the gigantic companies. They're not going to dedicate employees to that. They're

00:11:14   not going to give them the white glove treatment. They're not going to handhold them or whatever.

00:11:17   But for bug reports, the source of the bug, like how many apps are sold by the person who

00:11:24   had the bug, doesn't matter that much. Where it comes in a little bit is like, "Okay,

00:11:27   well this bug is stopping Microsoft Office from running correctly on our new OS. So they'll pay

00:11:31   attention to that." But that's not the nature of most bugs. Most bugs are not like a showstopper

00:11:35   where like we literally can't ship our product until you fix this bug. Most bugs are just like,

00:11:40   "Oh, this doesn't work right. And until it does, we're going to have to do this weird work around,

00:11:44   or we have to do it the old way instead of the new way," or something like that. So

00:11:48   I get what Matthew was saying, but I think there are some other factors that he was not considering

00:11:52   that make bug reports, even from a dinky developer, almost as valuable as bug reports from big

00:11:59   developers. And the only difference being if there's a showstopper that is stopping a big

00:12:02   developer product from working at all. Yep. Claude Zines writes, "Last episode,

00:12:08   Marco noted, "People learn that trick of canceling your App Store subscription immediately,

00:12:13   and then you still get your free month. Something worth noting is that for Apple's own apps,

00:12:17   when you cancel any of their free trials, you do not get to continue to use the app or service for

00:12:20   the duration of the trial. It ends and you're locked out of those privileges. I've not tried

00:12:23   this on Final Cut for iPad, but it is the case for every Apple One service. I'm not a developer,

00:12:28   but I don't believe the end trial immediately option is available for developers. It's absolute

00:12:32   cuckoo bananas." Yeah, I think this is correct on all counts. We don't have any control over this,

00:12:38   and that is the way it works for Apple One, I'm pretty sure.

00:12:41   Yes, it is. Yeah, and it's Apple One and I believe Apple Music trial, like whatever.

00:12:46   All those different Apple service trials that they spam the crap out of you from settings with,

00:12:51   or from the actual apps themselves, they all work that way as far as I know, which,

00:12:54   and I knew that, I just kind of forgot to mention it during this discussion, but yeah,

00:12:58   that is totally correct. Their trials end immediately, ours don't and can't.

00:13:03   Yep. Quick aside with regard to Claude Zines, I've probably brought this up at some point in

00:13:08   the past, but I am pretty sure this is the same Claude that was kind of the star of 110/100,

00:13:15   which Sandwich Video, our friends at Sandwich Video did a couple years back. This was,

00:13:18   do you remember this? It was Wistia, I believe, paid them $1,000, $10,000, and $100,000 to make

00:13:25   the same commercial three different ways, and Claude was the director for all these.

00:13:28   It is the coolest documentary. I freaking loved it. Again, it's like pre-pandemic, I think. It

00:13:34   was a while ago now, but it is so worth your time. If nothing else, watch the three two-minute

00:13:38   commercials, and it's hilarious to see the differences between the three. If that's not

00:13:42   the same Claude, then I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure it is, and you should check that out. We'll

00:13:45   put a link in the show notes. Did you guys see this when it went around? I don't think so.

00:13:48   Doesn't ring a bell. Oh, man. Well, now you two have homework, but nevertheless, we shall move on.

00:13:54   It's a pretty calm time of year. We have tons of time for homework.

00:13:56   Yeah, right. One thing occurs to me, I'm just really, really studying the Apple engineer talking

00:14:02   about bug reporting and how it works, the fact that they only see the initial report and everything

00:14:06   else is through an intermediary. That means essentially the most valuable piece of information

00:14:10   in my bug report on my weird window bug is in a subsequent comment. It's like the fifth comment

00:14:16   down. They don't get to see that at all. They only get to see whatever the intermediary just decides

00:14:22   to pass on, if anything. Another thing I saw recently with people sending us feedback, I

00:14:27   forget where it was, but it was like one of the best things you can do for, or maybe it wasn't

00:14:31   for us, maybe it was just in general, one of the best things you can do for reporting bugs is every

00:14:33   time Apple has a new release of a new OS, just copy and paste the bug as a new report and say,

00:14:39   this still happens in iOS 17. And by the way, I previously reported this in feedback, whatever,

00:14:44   whatever. And I know that's dumb, like you're copying and pasting and it seems like it might

00:14:49   be annoying, but that keeps it fresh because there's this whole recency bias where bugs filed

00:14:53   right after a release are given more attention than bugs filed later. And what that would mean

00:14:58   for me is that what I should do is summarize and coalesce all of my comments. Because if you look

00:15:03   at my bug report, it's like, here's my bug. I think it's like this. Here's another video showing it.

00:15:07   Here's what I discovered today. Next week I tried this and I discovered this. Ooh, I had a

00:15:10   breakthrough. It turns out it only happens when more than one user is logged in. Like that's the

00:15:13   headline, right? So the next time I filed this bug, which again is probably futile, but whatever,

00:15:17   the next time I filed the same bug, the bug will be multiple when multiple users logged in,

00:15:21   windowing doesn't work, or like that'll be the name of it because you just mentioned this before,

00:15:25   but you can't edit bug reports. So they see what I initially wrote in the description.

00:15:30   But I can't change that after the fact that apparently they don't see anything else that

00:15:34   I write. They just see the stuff that's passed on. And we had a comment in the chat room.

00:15:38   Somebody said, when I was at Apple, my team read every bug report, but we couldn't communicate back

00:15:42   directly. All correspondence went through dev relations and they were like 20 people for the

00:15:47   entire company. So there was your bottleneck. No idea if it's still like that though. So

00:15:51   more reports of the dysfunction from inside Apple. I love the advice of like, if your bug gets stuck,

00:15:58   just file a copy. It's like, imagine if your toilet worked that way.

00:16:02   You know, like if somebody, oh, just send some potatoes down. I don't know what the advice would

00:16:07   be. I mean, fortunately I guess Apple's bug reporting process works worse than all of our

00:16:11   toilets and all of our houses. But it sure reminds us of some similar themes.

00:16:15   I mean, the idea is like you're gaming the system because if you know that special attention is to

00:16:20   pay two bug reports to happen and the 48 hours after a new release goes out, you filing a dupe

00:16:25   in that period gets your thing to be seen, you know, by the time when you know more people are

00:16:31   looking at it and paying attention, which is terrible for Apple because like all that means

00:16:34   is just more, more pebbles on the pile of the giant mountain of pebbles that is bug reports.

00:16:39   Like the reason they're so perpetually behind and leave things unresponded to for years and years is

00:16:43   they just have too much to deal with. And the advice from the inside is, hey, if you want to

00:16:47   take advantage of the broken system the most, add to our problem by filing, filing more and more of

00:16:52   the same report. Right. Like, and like I said, I'm working around the idea that they don't see

00:16:56   my subsequent comments. I now have to periodically coalesce all of my comments and discoveries on my

00:17:01   bug into a new description under a new bug and just keep that cycle going. It's dumb.

00:17:06   - I am pretty sure, you know, I have to try to verify this with a birdie, but I'm pretty sure

00:17:12   anything that you or I or whomever puts in the feedback does make it to the associated radar

00:17:21   that's internal to them. Now, unquestionably things in the radar do not go back out toward us.

00:17:26   And that's, well, it's not really a problem, but it's part of the problem. I thought though that

00:17:30   as you add comments, I could swear that does bubble back into the internal radar, but I'm not

00:17:35   a hundred percent sure. Maybe an employee can write us. - And maybe this is on a per team basis.

00:17:40   Maybe, you know, the, the, the anonymous feedback from the Apple engineers information is out of

00:17:43   data only applies to their team. Again, within Apple, there is not as much consistency as you

00:17:48   might imagine from department to department, team to team, so on. - We are brought to you this week

00:17:55   by Judo, a design and prototyping tool, similar to Figma and Sketch, but purpose built for designing

00:18:01   iOS apps. Now, what makes Judo truly special is that their prototypes actually look and feel like

00:18:07   real apps because they are real apps. Judo's prototypes are rendered using native Swift UI.

00:18:13   So there's no difference between a prototype built with Judo and a prototype coded by hand.

00:18:18   You get everything, stacks, spacers, shapes, buttons, navigations, and tab views, all in a

00:18:23   visual canvas without needing to know code and without having to write any code. So this also,

00:18:28   because it's all native, works with important platform features like dynamic type, voiceover,

00:18:32   dark mode, localization. So this is great for designers because instead of going back and forth

00:18:37   with developers, you can catch issues with your layout or truncation or color at design time.

00:18:42   And designers can work out the kinks themselves. And prototypes built with other design tools,

00:18:48   you hand it off to developers to be manually translated into code and then you throw them away.

00:18:52   Judo's prototypes are production ready and can be incorporated directly into your existing iOS app

00:18:56   because Judo writes clean one-to-one Swift UI code for you while you're designing. It's super easy.

00:19:03   So, you know, maybe you're an indie developer, you don't have a lot of time to code yourself,

00:19:07   or you don't know Swift UI yet. Maybe you want to learn Swift UI. This is super easy to help with

00:19:11   Judo. Or maybe you have a great idea for an app and you can't really do all the coding yourself.

00:19:16   Judo makes all of these wonderful. And the Judo app is a true Mac app. They are huge fans of the

00:19:23   Mac. They're proud that Judo is a truly native Mac app. So it has all the native platform

00:19:27   integrations that you want, customizable toolbars, multiple windows, finder management, all, you know,

00:19:32   keyboard shortcuts, everything that makes a great Mac app. They also follow all the Apple Higgs. So

00:19:37   Judo feels right at home with all the rest of the apps on your Mac. So try Judo today. It's only $9

00:19:43   per month and comes with a seven day free trial. And they're offering our listeners three months

00:19:49   free with a special promo. To access that, visit judo.app/ATP and join the special ATP group in

00:19:56   their community. That's judo.app/ATP and join the special ATP group there. Thank you so much to Judo

00:20:03   for sponsoring our show. - A lot of people were very grumpy. I think it was Marco, maybe it was

00:20:11   John, but one of us saying that people who don't subscribe to things just don't want to pay.

00:20:16   Somebody put this in the show notes, so I guess there's a retort coming. - Yeah, I put it in there

00:20:20   to give Marco a chance to clarify what he meant. I know what I think he meant, which is why I didn't

00:20:25   comment on it during the episode, but I think we should let Marco, if he wants to, clarify his

00:20:29   thoughts there. - Honestly, I don't have that much to say. There are some people who wrote in to say,

00:20:35   "Hey, I will pay, I object to subscriptions on grounds XYZ." The problem is, again, in most of

00:20:44   the instances where people said that, what they went on to say with what they would pay, what

00:20:51   price would they pay, it ends up being maybe two years worth of a subscription price. And it's not,

00:20:57   it doesn't really work. And people brought up all sorts of examples of, "What if I only use the app

00:21:03   every so often? What if I'm fine with the old version?" And you can bring up counter examples

00:21:07   to any software pricing model where it doesn't work as efficiently for those examples. But as we

00:21:12   discussed, last week when we were talking about this, as we discussed, all the other models for

00:21:17   paying for software are also imperfect and also have usage cases or models where they don't

00:21:23   really work very well for the user or the developer. All of these systems have flaws,

00:21:28   all these systems have use cases that are not great in them. But I think given the modern

00:21:34   software ecosystem where the platforms we are all developing on are constantly changing,

00:21:40   both the software and the hardware that our apps are running on change at a pretty aggressive pace

00:21:46   here in Apple land, and the expectations of what your apps will do are constantly going up.

00:21:51   I know this because I'm an app developer. And I know, for instance, Overcast generally gets

00:21:57   very good star ratings and reviews in the App Store. I took a little while after, was it iOS

00:22:03   15 that introduced widgets or 14? I forget. I took a while to implement widgets because I was behind

00:22:09   in my development, which is the theme of the last few years of my life. But anyway, I was behind.

00:22:13   I took a few extra months to implement them before, after the OS came out, I didn't have them

00:22:19   for a few months. And I started getting a pretty significant amount of one star reviews that were

00:22:24   destroying my review average. It was enough to make a difference. So we have to keep updating

00:22:30   our apps. People say, "Oh, I can just buy this version and use it for years and years and years."

00:22:36   You say that, but that's not, as a collective, that's not what you do. What people actually do

00:22:43   is expect apps to be updated on a regular basis indefinitely into the future. And so the best

00:22:49   model that has the least dysfunction in it to pay for that is either advertising or subscriptions

00:22:55   or some choice between either one. That's how software is funded these days. I know it's not

00:23:04   perfect, but when you say I object to subscriptions, usually the use case you're citing is either,

00:23:11   "I really just don't want to pay you that much money," or it's something that's a fairly uncommon

00:23:17   use case that we can't accommodate everything and make it perfect for everybody, but a different

00:23:22   model would have more of those problems or more things that didn't fit into it. So this is the

00:23:27   model we have. And if you want to pay for software and not just have it be ad funded or could be data

00:23:33   funded, if you want to pay for software, this is the way to do it for most people, for most apps,

00:23:37   most of the time. Two things there. One, the implied thing in all your statements is that,

00:23:43   given the choices we have from Apple, Apple doesn't allow infinite number of business models. It only

00:23:49   supports certain ones. So the one that a lot of people cite is old-style upgrade pricing, where

00:23:53   you pay one price and then you have a discounted price to upgrade to the next major version because

00:23:57   you bought the previous one. Apple doesn't support that in any reasonable way. So even though people

00:24:03   may like that model, it's not an option for us currently in any of the app stores. Outside the

00:24:08   app store is an option and it's widely practiced there, but not inside. And the second thing is,

00:24:12   I think the main objection people had was when you said, when people say they don't want to pay

00:24:16   subscription, what they really mean is they don't want to pay anything. And people object and say,

00:24:19   that's not true. I do want to pay something. And then they go on to explain all this stuff

00:24:22   that you were just addressing about, well, I want to pay two years worth, or I want to pay a small

00:24:26   amount and never have any future updates or whatever. And my most charitable interpretation

00:24:31   of Marco's typically somewhat extreme statement is that people are really saying they just don't

00:24:37   want to pay is basically that given the limited options we have for certain classes of applications,

00:24:45   subscriptions or ads are the only way that those apps can be a feasible ongoing concern.

00:24:51   And if you say you don't want to pay in one of those ways, what you're effectively saying is

00:24:56   you don't want to pay at all because there is no other option for you. And there is no other option

00:25:00   for the app. We understand that you would pass money to the developer in exchange for what you

00:25:06   want. But what we're saying is like, again, for a given app and a given context, that would not work

00:25:12   if you if everyone did that the app would disappear in a year because the developer would not be able

00:25:16   to afford to continue making it. So that's, I don't think he's saying that you're lying and

00:25:21   that you you know, you're you're trying to pretend you would pay money, but really you wouldn't.

00:25:25   I believe people when they say they would pay money, it's just that the way they want to pay

00:25:29   it either isn't supported by Apple, or it is supported but is not sustainable for app developers

00:25:34   for the reason that Marco described. And you can debate it on an individual app basis because we're

00:25:38   all just speculating like we think this would not be sustainable. Casey's app is a great point.

00:25:42   He's got a potential for ongoing cost to him if that API that is currently free

00:25:50   becomes expensive. And he's got a plan for that now. But you could say, well, the app is free now,

00:25:53   he shouldn't worry about it. But that is risky for the developer, right? Why don't you just try it?

00:25:59   And if they start charging, you can start charging us and it'll be fine. And it's,

00:26:02   you know, it's a judgment call. It's why I've been debating it or whatever. Nothing is cut and dry.

00:26:06   But I feel like that's the the thing we're trying to express here is we're trying to find a business

00:26:11   model where it's sustainable for the app to continue to continue to exist. And then find

00:26:16   the customers who are willing to support that model and they are there. The two are tied

00:26:21   together because you have to find something that enough people are willing to pay for.

00:26:24   And as we said in the past, you're always going to leave some people out either because the model

00:26:28   they want isn't supported by Apple or because the developer thinks that the model they want

00:26:33   won't support their app development. Sure, we'll go with that.

00:26:37   A couple more things that related to subscriptions that we didn't quite get to. One,

00:26:42   this isn't relevant to Casey's app, which is why we never discussed it, but it's worth mentioning.

00:26:46   If you have a document-based application that has some kind of file format, which CallShe does not,

00:26:51   there is the complaint about subscriptions that says, hey, if I make a bunch of documents with

00:26:56   some application and it's a subscription application, if I decide that I don't use

00:27:02   that application anymore, that's fine. I stopped paying a subscription, but also I can no longer

00:27:07   even open the documents that I made over the past, whatever number of years when I was subscribing

00:27:12   it. So basically people say they're holding my file formats hostage. I can't even continue to

00:27:17   just look at them. Like say it is like a graphics program where you draw stuff or whatever,

00:27:20   and it's a subscription and you draw it for you. You subscribe for four years and you draw a whole

00:27:24   bunch of stuff and you're like, okay, well I'm done with my drawing now. As soon as you stop paying,

00:27:27   you can't even open those documents. You could export them or whatever. But anyway,

00:27:31   that's the idea that the file format locks your stuff up. People may not remember it back in the

00:27:35   bad old days or the good old days, depending on how you look at it, of paying $500 for MacWrite 2.0

00:27:41   and then next year having to pay $200 more for the upgrade price for the next version.

00:27:48   They would also do the file format thing where the next version of MacWrite, well,

00:27:52   maybe not MacWrite, Word is better. The next version of Microsoft Word would save all its

00:27:56   documents in Word 6 format and you couldn't open Word 6 documents if you had Word 5. So even though

00:28:02   you're perfectly happy with Word 5 and Word 5 can continue to open all of your Word 5 documents,

00:28:06   anytime anyone sends you a Microsoft Word document, you're like, oh, I can't open this.

00:28:09   Can you resave it to me in 5.0 format? And they go, what? And so eventually you need to upgrade. So

00:28:14   file formats have always been a weird kind of lock in slash dragging you into the future of making you

00:28:20   pay more money. But I do get that at any application that has a file format, subscriptions,

00:28:26   especially if you can't export your data in a sort of a non-proprietary format,

00:28:29   subscriptions do kind of hold your files hostage. At the very least, if you ever want to look at

00:28:34   them again or open them or edit them again, you have to pay subscriptions. On the flip side of

00:28:39   that, I think subscriptions do fit that pattern in one way in that if it's like $5 a month,

00:28:43   like Final Cut Pro is or whatever, it's like, oh, the second I stopped paying, I can't open my Final

00:28:47   Cut products. Yeah, but if you paid for Final Cut for two months and you paid $10, and then you have

00:28:52   a year gap and you want to open one again, just pay $5 more for a month. It's so much cheaper than

00:28:56   having to buy the new version of Final Cut Pro for $300 just to open your documents again, because

00:29:00   the old version you had no longer even runs on the new Mac you got or whatever. So everything has its

00:29:06   ups and downs. And I don't think the current model we're in is perfect. Again, I think there's lots

00:29:11   of models that are suitable for some applications that Apple simply does not support. If you want to

00:29:16   see how different models work, look at the Mac software market such as it is, I know it's small,

00:29:22   outside the Mac App Store. Lots of different models exist there, including old style upgrade

00:29:26   pricing, more flexible subscriptions, more forgiving subscriptions, all different kinds

00:29:31   of subscriptions. Like panic does this weird thing where like you pay a certain amount of money,

00:29:35   you get a certain number of updates as part of that, however long it takes them to put out that

00:29:38   update or something. I forget the exact model, but people try all sorts of things to try to find the

00:29:44   right combination of model that funds the development of the application, combined with

00:29:49   model that developers, that customers are willing to pay for. And we're all just trying to do the

00:29:53   best we can here. Sometimes you screw it up in one direction or another and we course correct.

00:29:57   - Yep. Do you want to tell me about what Zumphrey had to say?

00:30:00   - This is just about my speculation about what Bungie owns and what they don't. Zumphrey wrote

00:30:07   in to say, "Just confirming that both Myth and Oni were given to Take-Two Interactive after the

00:30:11   Microsoft acquisition, Take-Two was a game publisher." So Myth, a beloved game franchise,

00:30:16   beloved by me anyway, and Oni, a less beloved game that I'd also played, were Bungie games,

00:30:23   but they were given or sold or whatever to Take-Two Interactive. According to the folks

00:30:28   maintaining Myth, and you may be wondering who the heck is maintaining Myth? There's like a

00:30:31   open source project to sort of basically re-implement Myth that has existed for

00:30:36   years and years and it still exists, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. Anyway,

00:30:39   according to the folks maintaining Myth, Take-Two still wants far too much money for both Myth and

00:30:43   Oni, especially since they've let both rot for them to be purchased back by either fans or Bungie.

00:30:47   Because I'm assuming the people who maintain Myth are like, "Wouldn't it be great if we could get

00:30:50   the rights back to Myth and be the official maintainers to Myth and sell a new version?"

00:30:53   And Take-Two is like, "Sure, give us, I don't know, $50 million." Whatever they want,

00:30:57   it's not going to happen. And Zumphrey continues, "But yes, Pathways into Darkness,

00:31:01   Marathon, and Destiny have always been owned by Bungie. Myth and Oni are owned by Take-Two,

00:31:04   and Halo is owned by Microsoft." So there you have it.

00:31:07   [Intro]

00:31:08   We are sponsored this week by Trade Coffee, the best way to get fresh roasted beans delivered to

00:31:14   your house and a huge variety to choose from. They have over 450 coffees to choose from,

00:31:20   so they guarantee you'll find something new to love. They are great for variety, whether you like

00:31:25   dark roasts, light roasts, espresso blends, maybe rare roasts or single origins, whatever it is,

00:31:31   you name it, Trade has it. And if you aren't sure where to get started with Kraft Coffee,

00:31:36   they guide you through the process and help match you to coffees that are suited to your

00:31:40   taste. They're really good at it. And I've used Trade for a while, and what I love about it is

00:31:44   the incredible variety that you get, and yet it's always stuff I like. Like, I've used them now for

00:31:49   over a few years now, and it's always great stuff. I don't think I've even had the same thing twice

00:31:54   yet in that span. And it's always so good, and it's always what I like. You give it a few hints,

00:32:00   or you kind of take their quiz or whatever it is, and they give you the greatest recommendations

00:32:05   without you really having to do anything. You can thumb up or thumb down something after it comes if

00:32:09   you really want to, but honestly, I don't find the need to do that most of the time because they just

00:32:13   send me stuff I like. I don't have to do anything. So it is just wonderful with Trade. They can deliver

00:32:19   it, you know, whatever schedule you want to deliver it on, it is totally hassle-free. You can cancel

00:32:24   or pause anytime, customize your plan with your schedule, whatever it is, and it's always fresh,

00:32:30   roasted right to your door. Your coffee's always shipped within 48 hours of being roasted, so it's

00:32:36   always right at that peak of flavor when you get it, and that is the secret to great coffee.

00:32:40   I've tried so many different brewing methods and different nerdery around coffee, different,

00:32:44   you know, fancy places. That's the number one thing, by far, freshly roasted coffee. You can

00:32:49   make it any way you want. If it's freshly roasted, your odds of it being good are very, very high,

00:32:53   and that's by far the factor that matters the most. So upgrade your morning routine with better

00:32:58   coffee. Right now, Trade is offering our listeners a free bag of coffee with any subscription at

00:33:03   www.drinktrade.com/atp. That's www.drinktrade.com/atp for a free bag of coffee with any subscription

00:33:10   purchase. www.drinktrade.com/atp. Thanks to Trade for sponsoring our show.

00:33:15   Marco, what time is it? It is time for our first ever OS exit interviews. So I started this

00:33:27   tradition on our show a few couple years ago, giving exit interviews to the outgoing iPhone

00:33:33   right before the iPhone event of each fall. So we could kind of review, like, how was this past

00:33:39   iPhone? After a year of using it, what do we think of it? What are we hoping for for the next one as

00:33:46   a result of shortcomings of the current one, etc.? And so I thought this would be a good time for us

00:33:52   to do that same thing for this past year's Apple platform OSes, because they are all about to be

00:33:58   sort of replaced. You know, I know it's going to be in beta for a while, but whatever. So I wanted

00:34:02   to do quick exit interviews before we get to our www predictions for the past year of OSes. So that

00:34:08   would be iOS 16, iPad OS 16, watchOS 9, and Mac OS Ventura. I'm not doing tvOS because nobody cares,

00:34:15   and nothing ever changes. So anyway, true story. Yeah, I mean, sorry, that's the reality.

00:34:21   So I figured let's start out with the big one. Let's start with iOS. Not iPad OS yet,

00:34:26   we'll get to that. But iOS. iOS 16 was a pretty significant update in a lot of areas,

00:34:34   like user facing features and API's. The API's, as I'm developing now, I'm trying to, you know,

00:34:39   rewrite my entire app in SwiftUI. And SwiftUI got a bunch of really useful changes. And there's a

00:34:45   whole bunch of little API tweaks that happened in iOS 16. You know, big and small, they're,

00:34:51   you know, SwiftUI's entire navigation paradigm change, which I think it went from one horrible

00:34:55   thing to something that is mostly not horrible, which is, which is pretty impressive. It, a bunch

00:35:02   of smaller stuff changed as well, a bunch of new utilities, a bunch of new layout capabilities,

00:35:05   like it was a huge update for SwiftUI. And then for various other like small areas of the,

00:35:11   of the API's. And also user facing features, the lock screen, like the lock screen customization,

00:35:19   having multiple lock screens, having lock screen widgets, that was all new in iOS 16. And there

00:35:26   were, you know, a whole bunch of other smaller stuff. Live activities came, you know, a little

00:35:29   bit later that was kind of an iOS 16 thing. It kind of came late, but it got there. There were

00:35:35   a few, a few changes to like the, the, like the way focus modes could do stuff. I forget, did we

00:35:41   have focus modes in iOS 15 or was it still called do not disturb then? No, it's, it's been around

00:35:46   for more than one year. I thought so. Yeah. But the, but the focus mode became an API that apps

00:35:51   could integrate with as did I believe share for share with you. I think that also came in iOS 16.

00:35:57   And then messages got a huge upgrade with being able to edit, being able to mark as unread.

00:36:03   So there were, it was a pretty big update and I would say overall, Oh, pass keys. I forgot about

00:36:10   pass keys. Like there's so much, like there's like there were there, there have been so much

00:36:16   in iOS 16. Certain things I think didn't come out so well. One of the major changes was the,

00:36:24   they added this automatic dictation, you know, before, while you're dictating with,

00:36:28   with the little Siri microphone thing into a text field you would have to say things like period

00:36:33   and new line. And they added a thing that tried to make that automatic. Frankly, I changed it back.

00:36:39   Like fortunately they made that a setting and I changed it back because I found it too unreliable.

00:36:44   And I found, I still now just say period new line. But it's, I'm glad they at least were working on

00:36:49   that. Otherwise I think that's the, that's the biggest stuff. I mean, the home app got redesigned

00:36:56   and everything, but for the most part, those, those were like the major themes I think for,

00:37:01   for the user and developer side. And I would say overall, iOS 16 was a pretty good year. It was a

00:37:08   pretty solid release. I don't think I really had a lot of major problems with it. Like there haven't

00:37:13   really been, you know, major unstable features. And this is honestly, you know, we've, you know,

00:37:20   listeners, you know that when Apple has software quality problems, we will be brutal and we will

00:37:26   call them out on it constantly until they fix them. I think Apple's software quality is in a

00:37:31   pretty good place these days. I really think that. So here it is. I just wanted to say about

00:37:36   iOS. I think it's a great example for people who are new to the platform or new to the earth.

00:37:43   You may think like, like we say every year, you know, every year the iPhone's pretty good. And

00:37:49   you know, usually iOS is pretty good. Like one of the, one of the things you didn't mention at all

00:37:52   is like, is iOS crashing, are there stability issues or their data loss issues? Like we don't

00:37:56   even talk about this stuff related to iOS. Was the upgrade terrible? Did it brick people's phones?

00:38:00   Like you just don't hear about those things. And I feel like that goes, this is a great example of

00:38:06   the platform that is the most important to Apple that makes them the most money also gets the most

00:38:12   resources makes perfect sense, but it wasn't always that way. Those of us who have been in

00:38:17   the application for longer, remember when iOS was not 60% of Apple's profits or revenue. I forget

00:38:22   which one it is, but it used to be that iOS was a tiny little sliver because the iPhone was brand

00:38:26   new and there were iOS releases that were terrible that did crash. We're just like, everything was

00:38:32   broken and it made everything worse. And it was a giant mess. And it was a long time ago. So we're

00:38:36   talking about like, you know, iPhone OS version five or, you know, back when it was called firmer.

00:38:40   13 was a bad release. Yeah. They had been worse, but in general, because iOS gets so much attention

00:38:48   and so much resources, which is warranted, I think because of the importance, the importance it is to

00:38:53   the company, Apple has it. This is evidence of like, what happens if you put lots of people on

00:38:58   something? What happens if some of your best people are in something? What happens if you

00:39:00   put tons of money into it? What happens is that every year new iPhones come out and we go, you

00:39:05   know what? These are pretty good. This is a good phone. We have quibbles. I mean, you know, it's

00:39:08   like these tiny differences that we debate, but in general, the phones, you know, don't catch fire,

00:39:13   don't fail. The wifi things don't go bad. The screens don't burn in. They don't de-laminate.

00:39:18   Occasionally they bend. But again, that was a long time ago. Like the iPhones tend to be good and iOS,

00:39:23   the recent releases of iOS for the most part, they've been pretty good. When I look back at

00:39:28   iOS 16, the things you listed, even if I don't care about all, any of those things, there's not

00:39:32   really any negatives like iOS 16 erased all my photos. I was 16 crashes all the time. I was 16

00:39:37   burns my battery down. I was 16 made something that used to work, not work. Right. You hear

00:39:43   about those things for, you know, let's say Mac OS, but not so much for iOS. So I think iOS and

00:39:49   the iPhone continue to be great examples of what Apple can do when, you know, when they put the

00:39:56   maximum amount of effort into it, when they think it's important to the company, what it is important

00:40:00   to the company and they, and they resource it as such, even for a platform like iOS, that's like

00:40:05   old and creaky. And it's not going to be super cool. Like the VR platform or whatever, like it's

00:40:09   their bread and butter, but it's really important to have that bread and butter because it keeps

00:40:12   everything else going. So I'm, I'm glad that iOS 16 was good. I agree. I don't have any complaints

00:40:17   about it. I enjoy the new features they added the new features they added more or less work,

00:40:22   you know, like all the stuff that you're talking about. Like, you know, the, the AI, uh, not AI,

00:40:27   sorry. The ML punctuation thing where it figures out to put the money. That's a hard problem, but

00:40:31   it doesn't crash. It doesn't cause the screen to get all scrambled. If you don't like it,

00:40:35   you can turn it off. And in general, the features they added like editing and marketing is on, uh,

00:40:39   on red and sending and all that stuff or whatever. That stuff just works. It works like they said it

00:40:43   did in the keynote and makes the phone better. And we just go like, we just take it for granted.

00:40:46   Like, yeah, another good iOS release. Good job. Uh, so I hope Apple continues in that path. And I

00:40:51   kind of wish some of the other OSs could get that treatment. Obviously the other OSs

00:40:55   don't sell like iOS does and I get it, but, uh, we can all dream.

00:40:59   Yeah. You know, I, I agree with both of you guys. The one complaint I have about iOS 16, which is,

00:41:05   or maybe a desire for, for an improvement, I guess, is a better way of phrasing it,

00:41:10   is a lot of the stuff they added. I feel like it, it either the configuration is clunky or

00:41:18   non obvious, or there's not enough configuration. So like setting up, um, your custom home screens,

00:41:25   that's very, very clunky and, and I don't love it. And plus for the longest time, they like

00:41:30   forced you to change both wallpapers at the same time. I'm not sure if that's true anymore.

00:41:35   No, no, they fixed that. That's another example of even when they make a fumble, like that new

00:41:39   feature comes out that they've never had before and they kind of flubbed the UI. They fixed it in

00:41:43   a mid cycle release. We didn't have to wait to iOS 17, but that's true. But even still, like I wish

00:41:48   there was a little bit easier to configure and perhaps more configuration. Another thing that

00:41:52   drives me absolutely bad is I have my phone set up to randomly rotate through pictures of Aaron

00:41:58   and the kids. And every time I lock the phone, it will find a new picture to show you on the screen,

00:42:04   the always on screen, which I have left on, uh, it'll find a new picture to show and figuring out

00:42:08   where or what picture that is, is like a 75 tap process that underscore documented way back when

00:42:15   I don't even remember how to do it, but it's a nightmare. And I wish so badly if there was a way

00:42:22   that you could, even if it's like a triple, triple tap or something, but some way to say,

00:42:27   please show this to me in photos. I would love for that. Although actually on that point,

00:42:31   but the photos thing, I think this is a great example of what money and resources can't buy,

00:42:36   which is like, you know, no matter how many people you put in, how much money you put into it.

00:42:41   When something is a 1.0, like the very first version of this lock screen customization

00:42:45   thing, it's not going to have all the features everybody wants. Even if they thought of that,

00:42:49   even if they thought someone said, Hey, you know, people see these photos on their home screen,

00:42:52   they're probably going to want to be able to find them in their photos collection. There's probably

00:42:56   not time to do that for a 1.0 given the size of the team that's assigned for this brand new

00:43:00   feature. So this is a lesson for people, all the people who have never written software for a

00:43:03   living, no matter how much you care, no matter how much money you have, 1.0 is not going to do all

00:43:09   the things that you wish it did. And it seems like you could fix that by adding people or money, but

00:43:13   there are many books about this that you can read if you care to understand why that's not the case.

00:43:17   Trenton Larkin Indeed. Yeah, I completely agree.

00:43:20   Jared Ranere One thing on that too, is like, you know,

00:43:21   all of these home screen customization feature or the, I mean, sorry, rather lock screen customization

00:43:25   features. Like the other day I was, I was in a restaurant and the people at the next table over,

00:43:30   one of them had shown the other person their iPhone and the other person was like, Oh my God,

00:43:35   how do you get that up there? And they had no idea that like lock screen widgets existed. And I feel

00:43:41   like a lot of these features, a lot of the, you know, the iOS power features that have come along

00:43:46   in the last few years, they're really hidden from people. Like, you know, I've said before how

00:43:51   nobody knows about how you can customize the complications on watch faces. Similarly, no one

00:43:57   knows about lock screen widgets. When, you know, when I look around in public and I see how other

00:44:02   people have their phones set up, I almost never see anybody with any lock screen widgets, because

00:44:08   I think that whole system is still very hidden if you don't know to look for it. And so that,

00:44:14   I think that was one area that, you know, I recognize Apple's resistance towards, you know,

00:44:18   adding, adding like settings screens and the settings app and stuff like that when not

00:44:21   necessary. And they want everything, Oh, you just, you just long press here. And then this

00:44:26   whole new world opens up. And I think they, I hope that future OSs maybe that we're about to see in a

00:44:32   week, maybe improve that a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. That's, it's a hard problem because I,

00:44:36   the, you don't want to be like, Oh, you have to go through this manual tutorial and like, you know,

00:44:41   then you launch an iOS app and they want to, there's like a 17 tap thing where some overlay

00:44:45   is showing you every new feature they added and everything and makes it quote unquote discoverable.

00:44:48   But at a certain point you just tune out and you're like, okay, next, next, next. I just want

00:44:51   to get to the point where I'm using the app. Apple tends not to belabor the onboarding process of the

00:44:57   phone. There's already enough crap you have to go through. They're not going to be like, Oh,

00:45:00   and by the way, did you know that I was 16? We added the ability to have widgets on your live

00:45:03   screen at that point. People are like, Oh, I just want to use my phone. Right. And it's a hard

00:45:06   problem because you don't want to shove it in their face. Uh, you know, and you don't want to

00:45:10   force them to go through a big tutorial. It's the nature of an OS when it gets as old and when the

00:45:16   version number hits 16, there's probably a lot of features in there that are going to be more sort

00:45:20   of power user expert features or features that I get discovered by word of mouth or popularized by

00:45:27   seeing somebody else that has them. And in some ways that's kind of inevitable. Like it's, you

00:45:32   should, every single feature on your phone can't be easily discoverable because that would be a

00:45:35   nightmare, right? There's always going to be things that are obscure. And that's why Apple has things

00:45:39   like, and the, you know, Apple retail stores where you like common, we'll show you how to use your

00:45:44   phone or your Mac or whatever. And we scoffed like, Oh, people, Oh, people have to go there

00:45:47   and they have to learn how to use their phone. Like people who don't listen to tech podcasts are not

00:45:50   going to discover this on their own, but maybe they will realize, Hey, there's like a free class.

00:45:54   I can go to the Apple store where they'll tell me how to use my phone. And I bet they will cover

00:45:58   stuff like this in that, you know, 30 minute class or whatever. And people will feel like they get

00:46:02   great value of it and they'll, they'll love Apple. So I think those classes are a great idea. And

00:46:06   those classes are way better than forcing everybody to go through like a tutorial level and video game

00:46:10   parlance to learn how to use the new features of their phone. Cause most people do not care,

00:46:14   especially at the moment they're setting up their phone, but maybe later they will care. And when

00:46:18   they choose to go to a class to learn about their phone, they'll be happy about it. If Apple chooses

00:46:22   to try to show them all the new features they added, they will not be happy. Yeah. But there's,

00:46:27   you know, there is kind of like a, a middle ground though. Like, you know, the lock screen

00:46:30   customization and widget thing. I just looked around the settings app. I don't see anything

00:46:34   about it anywhere in there. As far as I can tell that entire, the entire section of the phone of

00:46:39   lock screen customization does not exist in the settings app. You have to get to it from the lock

00:46:45   screen through that, you know, the long press or whatever. And I feel like that's, you know, look,

00:46:49   they'll add things to the settings app whenever they want to. Have you set up a new phone recently

00:46:54   with a new Apple ID? It is spammed like crazy with all sorts of service upsells and other garbage.

00:47:01   So services, it goes the other direction where they're not shy about saying,

00:47:04   did you know we have a new service? Yeah. Like they, they already have a section called home

00:47:08   screen. They could have one there called lock screen, or they can have this section renamed

00:47:12   home and lock screen and have it, have it be two subjects. Like they have obvious places for it.

00:47:17   Yeah. I don't know if this particular problem is intractable, but, uh, you know, like another

00:47:21   example is like, uh, when you swipe left or whatever, when you swipe, uh, to reveal the

00:47:26   widgets that are to the left of your first home, do you swipe left on the home screen? You don't

00:47:29   want or how, which direction is that? I don't even, actually, I don't even know. We talked

00:47:34   about this last time. I'm like, what do people mean when you scroll down? What I mean is that

00:47:37   imagine in the imaginary physical world of your phone to the left of your first home screen is

00:47:44   a screen with a bunch of widgets that you can put on it. Right. Um, how many people know that

00:47:48   screen's even there? That's different. That's a whole different section of widgets. It's not

00:47:53   the lock screen. It's the other place. It's a place where widgets were before, you know,

00:47:56   you could put them on your lock screen. Right. And it uses different widgets because lock screen

00:47:59   widgets are a special type. The apps have to have Venns and it can only be black and white.

00:48:02   And I know, I know. Well, what I'm saying is that screen, how many people don't know that screen is

00:48:07   there? Because there's not like you, you open your phone for the first time and there's a little

00:48:10   blinky arrow saying, Hey, did you know there's something over there? I mean, I think they might've

00:48:14   had some kind of discoverability thing the very first time that feature was, was added to iOS,

00:48:18   which was years and years ago. But right now I think people might accidentally do and go, Oh my

00:48:22   God, what is this? What is this screen? I've never seen before, which had like whatever app is the

00:48:26   default that maybe they have like the photos widget, the weather widget is the default or

00:48:29   whatever that is quote unquote, not discoverable. But if you see enough people using a phone and you

00:48:34   see them doing it and you, if you see someone do it, you can say, can I swipe in that direction

00:48:38   and find a bunch of widgets and lo and behold, you can at the bottom of that screen is like a plus

00:48:41   or an edit button or whatever. So a little bit more discoverable than the lock screen stuff.

00:48:45   But like I said, there's always going to be examples of that. That's sort of, what do you

00:48:50   call it? Progressive disclosure or whatever they call it, where it looks simple to the person who

00:48:53   wants it to be simple, but there is more complexity if you know where to find it. And then we're just

00:48:57   trying to find the way to smooth that ramp between those two worlds. To go back a half step to what

00:49:02   John was saying about a version one, you know, so I'm trying to, I don't think I'm going to succeed,

00:49:07   but I'm trying very hard to get call sheet out the door before WWDC, which means I probably should

00:49:11   have submitted it last week and I haven't yet, but that's neither here nor there. Anyway, I have

00:49:15   18 open tickets issues, whatever in GitHub of which I plan to only fix two of them before I

00:49:24   send it to the app store or to review. So I have 16 things for me to work on the moment I get this

00:49:30   thing published. So John is exactly right. Now granted it is just me, but still that is how this

00:49:35   works. And then one final thought on iOS 16, another thing where I've come to really like

00:49:41   the features, but I feel like while we simultaneously have gotten a lot more

00:49:45   configuration than I expected, I want more configuration and that's with focus modes.

00:49:50   And I think on analog at some point, I'll talk with Mike about what I've been doing with focus

00:49:55   modes recently, cause I've ended up in a situation or what, like that seems like it happened to me.

00:49:59   I have chosen a situation where in, just like white cars, which do happen to you. I've chosen

00:50:05   a situation where in I'm basically in a particular focus mode 24/7. Well, anytime I'm not sleeping,

00:50:10   I'm in this one focus mode and it actually has been working pretty well for me. And like I said,

00:50:15   I'll unpack that on analog probably later this month or whatever. But I've really even have

00:50:20   come to really like focus modes quite a bit, but there's things. And of course off the top of my

00:50:24   head, I can't think of what specifically they are, but there are definitely some things that I wish I

00:50:27   could be either more explicit about or tweak just a little bit. Oh, a great example. I would love to

00:50:33   have a specific home screen for a focus mode and everyone is reaching for their email client saying,

00:50:39   Oh, contrary, you can do that. Well, not exactly. What I want to be able to do is say,

00:50:44   take these five or six apps and put them on my travel home screen when I'm in the travel

00:50:49   focus mode, but that's not how it works. What you need to do is dedicate a page always and forever.

00:50:54   That is the only one that happens to be surfaced during the travel focus mode. Does that make sense?

00:50:59   So you can't like have a bespoke thing that only shows up during your travel focus and then it goes

00:51:05   away. You have to have it there always. And you're just choosing to kind of sort of highlight it or

00:51:09   not. It's a silly example, but it drives me bananas. And so stuff like that, I wish we had a little

00:51:14   more control, but as much as I'm harping on a few of these things, it's because I love them so darn

00:51:20   much. And iOS 16 really is really, really good. I mean, heck, they could have done making iMessages

00:51:28   unread and that would have sold the release for me right there. I'm in. That's all I need. So it

00:51:34   is really, really quite good and I've been really pleased with it. All right, let's move on to

00:51:40   iPad OS 16. This obviously many of the same features apply to iPad OS, although not any of the

00:51:46   lock screen stuff. You know, we'll see if that happens this year, who knows. But I think the

00:51:50   major headliners for iPad OS that were unique to it, or at least mostly unique to it, were

00:51:56   Stage Manager and maybe Freeform and kind of the new paradigm. Like they had this whole thing

00:52:02   called Desktop Class Apps. And what this kind of meant in practice was things like customizable

00:52:08   toolbars and stuff that made, it gave iPad apps a lot more of the abilities that Mac apps have

00:52:14   always had and kind of made like system native UI for a lot of that stuff. But that's kind of a

00:52:19   longer term play for the iPad. Like I think a lot of this stuff with the iPad, they changed some

00:52:24   things like, you know, some better external display support. They had like display scaling

00:52:29   modes and stuff like that. A lot of that stuff seems to be giving the iPad, you know, slowly

00:52:34   over time giving it more and more abilities that are like a Mac in some way, or that can be closer

00:52:40   to a Mac in some way. And I think they largely succeeded. Although that, you know, it remains

00:52:46   to be seen how much the market will use that. But at least look, at least now Apple's using it,

00:52:49   you know, with their new Pro apps and stuff. So that all helps.

00:52:52   - Although Apple is not using all the features you just mentioned, the Pro apps.

00:52:55   - That's true.

00:52:56   - Steve Stratton Smith has been commenting that both Logic and Final Cut do not use the resizable

00:53:03   window thing that works with Stage Manager. I don't think they even support split view. I mean,

00:53:07   again, their 1.0s, see previous discussion about 1.0s doesn't mean they're never going to, but

00:53:10   yeah, Apple, I mean, Stage Manager does feel like it definitely fizzled. Like it was an idea they

00:53:15   had, but how multitasking might be better. I continue to think it works better on the Mac

00:53:19   than it does in the iPad. iPad people don't seem to be big fans of it. Support from third-party

00:53:23   applications for it has not been wonderful, including from Apple itself. So let's set that

00:53:28   aside. But the other desktop class application stuff of like more controls, better widgets,

00:53:32   a way for you to have a kind of sort of menu bar type thing without rolling your own,

00:53:36   like that's all good and positive. But I mean, I feel like we're going to get to eventually the

00:53:40   summary of what we say about iPadOS every year, which is the hardware continues to be let down by

00:53:45   the software because the hardware is so incredibly capable. And by that, I don't just mean power

00:53:49   because the phone is incredibly powerful too, but it's got a tiny screen and it doesn't support

00:53:53   a stylus and you can't connect it to external displays. And like, it's the full picture of

00:53:58   the power of the iPad. The fact that it uses Mac SoC is the fact that you can get one with a really

00:54:03   big screen and you can put a keyboard on it and you can connect it to an external monitor and you

00:54:07   can use a pencil with it. The OS does not do those capabilities justice. That's always our complaint.

00:54:14   And they moved one tiny little inch closer to it with 16 by adding some of the desktop class

00:54:19   application stuff. And then one tiny little inch backwards by attempting to fix multitasking again

00:54:24   with stage manager and having kind of land with a thud. So, you know, not, not, I'm not, even though

00:54:30   iPadOS also, you know, didn't cause crashes and the features they added existed and were fine.

00:54:35   The fundamental complaint about iPadOS that we have a complaint that we don't have about iOS

00:54:41   continues to exist and that we just feel like the, the, you know, the hardware is let down by

00:54:46   the OS. Whereas on the phone, we feel like the hardware is well supported by the OS. The OS

00:54:51   lets the phone do things that we think phone apps should be able to do for the most part.

00:54:55   Not true on iPadOS. Yeah, I think because, you know, iPadOS, the, the, I would say specifically,

00:55:02   like the area of the software that makes it so frustrating for a lot of power users is

00:55:08   specifically multitasking. Like, you know, and when you look at the way the phone, the phone doesn't

00:55:12   have things like split view. So you don't really like, we're able to enjoy that the iPhone as,

00:55:18   you know, there's always one app on screen. There is never more than one app. It's one app on screen.

00:55:24   We got picture on picture on the iPhone. Another example of the thing that said, you know what,

00:55:27   we always know we've had the power to do it, but actually phone screens are big enough. We should

00:55:30   support picture to picture. And they did. And that is a limit for multitasking that I take advantage

00:55:34   of on my little tiny phone screen. But it's not like, you know, I, on iPad, again, iPadOS, you

00:55:40   have the, an external monitor. Yeah, exactly. Like it, you know, you have exceptions on the,

00:55:46   on the phone, like the dynamic island stuff and, you know, control center, which is, you know,

00:55:50   for the most part, the phone is each app takes up the full screen and that, you know, iOS is really

00:55:56   good at that. That's what it was made for. iPadOS still feels like it's fighting you at every turn.

00:56:00   And I appreciate that, you know, some of the changes they've made in the last couple of

00:56:04   releases, like, like when they, they changed, um, some of the like split view controls to put

00:56:08   it into that little ellipsis dot thing on the top of the windows and like, so yeah, that was very

00:56:12   good. Yeah. Some of those things helped a lot, but I still, whenever I'm using an iPad, multitasking

00:56:17   and window management still are very clunky to me and iOS 16 or I'm sorry, iPadOS 16 attempted

00:56:25   to change that in a big way with stage manager. And I, and I think it just, it, I don't think it

00:56:30   made anything better. I think it was a big sidestep in certain ways. I think it was a step back in

00:56:35   certain ways. I, I try, I tried using it myself for maybe a few weeks on my iPad usage. And granted,

00:56:42   I'm not an, I'm not an iPad power user and that's part of the reason why this stuff drives me nuts.

00:56:45   But I found it infuriating. Like everything I, I was only, I only kept using it for that brief time

00:56:54   so I could say I give it a fair shot and I hated every minute of it and it would, it was fighting

00:56:59   me at every turn. So I think that was a clear misstep. I honestly think they would have been

00:57:04   better off not shipping stage manager on the iPad. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm looking at

00:57:08   the, um, the page of Lincoln's show notes for features for iPadOS 16 and other than stage

00:57:13   manager, there's not really that much here that I consider to be unique to the iPad. And I think

00:57:18   what there is has already been covered. They added a weather app. That was a long time coming.

00:57:22   Uh, I mean, I, I obviously I bought one of the new M2 iPads and I do like my iPad. I,

00:57:30   I would not say I'm a power user though. I really, really like having an iPad pro for both casual use

00:57:38   and couch use, but also on the go if, if necessary, it's very rare that I would try to

00:57:43   accomplish anything that vaguely looks like work on an iPad. In fact, it's almost never, but in

00:57:47   certain cases it can be done. Um, but no, I, I love my iPad. I love the hardware. I love that I

00:57:53   was able to keep using the smart keyboard or whatever it is, the super fancy floaty keyboard

00:57:58   from, um, the 2018 iPad that I could still use it on my brand new iPad. But yeah, software wise,

00:58:05   it's just like stage manager never clicked for me. Maybe it's a perfectly good feature and it's just

00:58:10   my brain doesn't operate that way. But what I've heard is that it's not very good. And when I tried

00:58:14   it, like I said, my brain just did not click with it. Um, and it's funny because looking at this page,

00:58:20   the, the primary feature here is iCloud shared photo library, which has been very good for me

00:58:25   personally. I know we covered over the past couple of months, a lot of places where there were gotchas

00:58:28   and oopses, but in my experience, it's been great. I've been really happy with it. And I'd like to

00:58:34   jump very briefly back to iOS, uh, yeah, with iOS, the dynamic Island granted. It doesn't happen often

00:58:40   that I've found an app that I use that, that supports the dynamic Island that I use the

00:58:44   features in the dynamic Island. But man, when it is there, when you have an app that supports it,

00:58:50   when they, when it's, when it's working properly, it is pretty freaking great. And I do love it.

00:58:55   But with iPadOS, I mean, shrug, which kind of sucks, right? Cause these are such powerful

00:59:01   pieces of hardware, but eh, like there's nothing, I don't have anything bad to say about iPadOS, but

00:59:07   whereas I can, I can come up with a ton of great things to say about iOS with iPadOS. It's kind of

00:59:12   like, well, they didn't, they didn't ruin it. I guess showing the iPhone getting a little bit more

00:59:17   attention. I was getting more attention. It reminds me of the, the, you know, so the, the iPad pro

00:59:22   didn't get revised. So the, the, uh, because the like Apple pencil thing is in the place of where

00:59:27   the little face ID sensor would be and so on and so forth. So the rumor is like, Hey, well, the one

00:59:31   way they might fix that when they eventually do fix it is they could move the face ID sensor down

00:59:35   into the display and put a notch on it. And people were like notch on the iPad. Why would they want

00:59:39   that? That would be so dumb. But here's the thing. As I said, when the notch came out in iOS, um,

00:59:45   it's not, this is Apple making lemonade out of lemons, right? Apple doesn't want to have to have

00:59:50   this gigantic sensor array there. It's just, they can't get it to be invisible under the screen quite

00:59:55   yet or whatever. So it is what it is. And they're trying to make the best of it and they did great.

00:59:58   And people love it. Oh, I love it. I love it. And it works like you just said or whatever.

01:00:01   But, uh, you know, as I said, when, uh, when the new phone came out, what people love is a new

01:00:07   place for always visible system level UI to be on the screen. They don't love a giant black hole in

01:00:12   the middle of their phone, right? You, but you can get that pretend it's all screen. There's no notch

01:00:16   anymore. You can get all those features of the dynamic island in probably a more aesthetically

01:00:20   pleasing form, but just dedicating part of the screen to have always visible system level UI,

01:00:25   like the Mac does all the time. iPads can do the same thing. We mentioned the three little dots,

01:00:31   which was like the first after years concession of iPadOS. I'm like, okay, I guess we'll have some

01:00:35   visual UI that is like system level thing. Like, you know, every single freaking window in Mac OS

01:00:40   has a three stoplights on it or whatever. Just there's so much room on big iPad screens,

01:00:45   dedicate a portion of the iPad screen to something, some kind of system wide,

01:00:50   always visible UI, like a dynamic island. And I know you can't, well, we don't have a notch

01:00:54   or whatever. I feel like if they put a notch on the iPad to deal with the pencil situation,

01:00:58   that will finally give iPadOS like the excuse slash kick in the butt to add, you know,

01:01:03   always visible system level UI to their interface. Like they're, they're going, they're bending over

01:01:08   backwards to continue this model of like, we don't have window Chrome. We don't have windows. We don't

01:01:12   have window controls. I'm like, yeah, we know you don't. That's what makes it so annoying to do

01:01:16   anything. And they're grudgingly adding little grab handles and three little dots with a menu.

01:01:20   They're grudgingly adding a control to have like a menu bar. And I feel like if you give the notch

01:01:25   on the next iPad, I think it will be kind of a shame because I don't like the screen real estate

01:01:30   being taken, but I do believe people will see it as a net win because finally iPadOS will be forced

01:01:35   to essentially copy the dynamic island. And then you'll have the ability to have some kind of

01:01:39   visible UI for apps that aren't the front most, you know, it frustrates me so much. Anyway,

01:01:43   iPadOS do better. That's a pretty good story actually. Yeah. I like, I, I, what I want from

01:01:51   iPadOS for me, and I know that my needs and preferences are obviously not going to be

01:01:55   representative of everybody, but every time I use an iPad, it mostly makes me want either a Mac or

01:02:01   a phone. And I, I, I wish over time for that to be diminished and for me to really love what the iPad

01:02:08   is. And, and maybe that's just not me. Like maybe it's just wrong for me, but I've never quite gotten

01:02:14   there with an iPad or I've only gotten there for brief moments. And I would love for that to change

01:02:19   anyway. How about watchOS 9? This is actually, I don't think there's that much to say about

01:02:26   watchOS 9 because there's not that much to say about most versions of watchOS because most

01:02:29   versions of watchOS have not that many visible changes to either the user stuff or developer

01:02:35   APIs. And I think watchOS 9 was very similar. They did actually, so I recently was setting up,

01:02:44   I was trying to customize the, the metrics that were displayed for certain workout types in the

01:02:50   watch. And this used to be in the watch app on the phone, which was really frustrating. Is it like,

01:02:55   if you were already out on a run, for instance, and you're like, ah, crap, I wanted to see the

01:02:59   average pace, not the current pace or whatever. Like there was no way for you to change that if

01:03:04   you were already gone. Now with this new version, they moved it, they moved all that customization

01:03:10   into the workout app on the watch. And they moved, they changed a whole bunch of stuff. And that

01:03:14   actually took me forever to find. If in case anyone out there, in case you want to find that,

01:03:19   you got to hit the ellipsis button on the start workout blobs, and it's buried way deep in there.

01:03:24   You'll see if you start, if you start hunting around in there. But anyway, the workout app got

01:03:29   a whole bunch of like, you know, new stuff like that. A few new capabilities here and there,

01:03:33   but for the most part, I think that was about it for like, obvious user facing features that

01:03:40   you would actually see that were part of watchOS 9. Not just, you know, obviously, with the long

01:03:45   true the Apple watch ultra, there were certain abilities that the ultra got that that you know,

01:03:50   the rest of us that other watches might not have gotten or some of them came to both. But for the

01:03:55   most part, watchOS 9 was a pretty quiet release. And again, this is this is like every other

01:04:02   release of watchOS. The, the developer API's were also pretty quiet. You know, there there were some,

01:04:09   you know, whenever something happens happens to Swift UI, that usually is spread to all the all

01:04:14   the platforms with UI runs on sometimes except for Mac, but you know, for the most part, like,

01:04:18   whenever iOS gets Swift UI thing, usually watchOS gets a two. So that helps at least. But for the

01:04:25   most part, the you know, watchOS 9 was was a pretty subtle release, as well as just alongside

01:04:33   of almost every other watchOS release. They, the watch face situation is still really, you know,

01:04:40   underwhelming and limited. I still wish for third party watch faces or at least very, very large

01:04:47   complications that we can have more control over or something like that. I think there's there's so

01:04:52   much more that watch faces could be and watchOS 9 did basically nothing to to really improve that.

01:04:59   Yeah, I mean, I really like my Apple Watch. But that being said, I agree with you that there

01:05:05   wasn't that much here. I've, I did dedicate myself to being a little bit more religious about sleeping

01:05:13   with my watch. But that quickly fell by the wayside because I would put the watch on the

01:05:16   charger in the evening when I shower, because that's the correct thing to do. Don't at me.

01:05:21   And then I would, you know, never put it back on and or in or maybe I would put it on to charge

01:05:26   while I was brushing my teeth or whatever. And then I would forget to put it back on or it

01:05:29   wouldn't charge by the time I passed out. And so I tried to be very good about it for like a couple

01:05:35   of weeks and then it fell off fell by the wayside. I didn't even realize you're talking about the

01:05:39   complication thing. Like I didn't even realize you could futz around with the with the views on the

01:05:45   workouts. I'm sure I knew this at some point. But it wasn't until you said something a moment ago

01:05:51   that I was like, Oh yeah, can I do? Oh, wait, where is it? Oh, you got to go in. You got to

01:05:55   hit the ellipsis. Then you got to hit the pencil. Like it is so not discoverable, which I mean,

01:05:59   it is the watch. I can, I can give them a buy on that, but no part of this was obvious to me,

01:06:04   but I was just fiddling with it while you were talking to there's some cool stuff in here.

01:06:07   But yeah, I mean, I love my Apple watch. I don't know that I yearn for that much more from it other

01:06:14   than perhaps a little bit more customization with regard to like complications and what

01:06:20   complications fit where and so on and so forth. I would love third party watch pieces, but I mean,

01:06:24   that's going to happen the same time we get an Apple TV set, right? Like it's just at this rate,

01:06:28   it's never going to fricking happen. Um, but no, all in all, I like my watch. I like the hardware.

01:06:32   I like, I like watchOS. It's not perfect, but it works pretty well. And, uh, yeah, I mean,

01:06:37   there's just not much, not much to say, John, I know you have a lot of thoughts about watchOS,

01:06:41   so hit me with them. I just want to chime in to say that I continue to believe third

01:06:44   party watch faces will happen eventually. I hope so. I'm not so convinced, but I hope so.

01:06:50   Yeah, me too. I've won. One can hope. All right. The big one, macOS Ventura. I know John has

01:06:57   nothing to say about this, right? Yep. Well, the big feature that we skipped over,

01:07:01   even though it was on two out of the three OS, as we've discussed already is the share iCloud

01:07:06   shared photo library. Right. And that was another, this is the thing that Apple does. And when it's a

01:07:11   service, uh, it makes sense. They roll out a feature across all the platforms. Cause honestly,

01:07:14   a feature like this wouldn't make sense if it wasn't rolled out across all platforms,

01:07:18   because all the platforms support Apple's iCloud photo library. They all have a photos

01:07:22   application from Apple on them. Of course, there's going to be some backend change. It should be on

01:07:26   all of them. And it is. And I think the feature has been a rousing success at least as far as my

01:07:31   library is concerned. It, you know, it was able to handle my library. It didn't destroy all my photos,

01:07:36   a duplicate feature, a little bit scary as we had many weeks of follow-up on that, but in general,

01:07:40   I've been able to, uh, you know, mitigate any problems there by backing up 30,000 photos,

01:07:45   not ideal, but you know, it could be worse. And it's a version 1.0 like for example, when,

01:07:49   and now when I see it find duplicates that aren't really duplicates, I would like to tell it,

01:07:52   no photos, those aren't duplicates, but there is no option to do that because it's a 1.0. So maybe

01:07:56   in the next version, they'll say, Oh, now if it's suggested duplicate and you believe it's not a

01:08:00   duplicate, you can click another button that says, don't tell me about this one again, cause it's not

01:08:04   actually a duplicate. Right. That's the type of feature you get into 1.1 and a two or whatever,

01:08:07   you know, however, we're versioning this thing. So I think that was a great new feature on the Mac.

01:08:12   The Mac is also an excellent example of the opposite of iOS. What happens on a platform

01:08:16   that doesn't sell a lot, that doesn't have a lot of people on that doesn't have the very best people

01:08:20   and the most money and the most resources you get MacOS, which even though it's incredibly mature,

01:08:25   simply does not have the, the Polish stability, reliability, just general fundamental goodness

01:08:34   that iOS or even iPadOS hell even watchOS have to give just a random example that everyone's been

01:08:39   talking about for years, but only because it's so glaring when those little notifications appear in

01:08:43   the upper right setting aside that we think the UI is bad and they have buttons that only appear on

01:08:47   hover. We're like three years into that redesign. And when you drag your, your pointer over there

01:08:52   with your mouse and you try to click one of the buttons, the buttons disappear out from under your

01:08:56   pointer. That's not a 1.0 problem. That's not something that was in the initial, you know,

01:09:01   0.0 release of this thing. This thing has been out for years and no one can be bothered to fix it.

01:09:05   It's embarrassing every time I go and do that. Now everyone knows the trick, like, Oh, put your,

01:09:10   put your cursor into the menu bar first and sneak up on it from behind. And you'll be able to like,

01:09:14   you have to flank the button or something. It's that this is like years into this,

01:09:19   that type of thing would not stand on iOS. iOS has that. They care more about it. They will make sure

01:09:24   it's more polished. If some of that slips out in a 1.0, they'll fix it. And, you know, within a

01:09:28   couple of weeks or a month, it's not like it's going to stay there for years. Parts of MacOS

01:09:32   are like that all over the place, setting aside the system settings redesign, which we think is

01:09:36   terrible. At least that is a 1.0 and in theory, they could fix it or whatever, but like,

01:09:40   there's just so much stuff that is unreliable, has bad UI or both. And it's not like we're begging

01:09:47   for tons and tons of new features to be added. I, again, I do like it when we have feature parody,

01:09:51   we got the catalyst version of messages. So we have the messages features parody finally.

01:09:56   But like it just needs to, it needs to be good in the way that any boring iOS release is good. And

01:10:03   they have not yet achieved that. What do we want out of MacOS? Just make, you know, stability,

01:10:08   speed and fix the UI that's bad. Yes. On top of that, we can add new features, but like,

01:10:12   let's achieve that first. And they don't, they're not getting it. Like setting aside my weird bug

01:10:16   with the windowing thing or whatever, that's just, who knows what that will end up being. That's,

01:10:19   that's not a big deal. I'm talking more about the things like the notifications or the fact

01:10:22   that some settings is so terrible and it's 1.0, right. Maybe you let that one stew a little bit

01:10:27   longer, like, or just any feature that's been in the OS forever, basic stuff, how networking work,

01:10:31   DNS resolution, like just features that have been there for literal decades, right. That just either

01:10:37   get flakier over time or don't get enough attention paid to them or, or just plain don't

01:10:42   get any better that the world moves on. And that still like the one that drives me nuts,

01:10:46   I've talked about this before. I have multiple Macs within this same room here. And when I want

01:10:50   to copy a file from my Mac to the one that I can practically reach with my arm, how long does it

01:10:55   take for me to mount that Mac as a shared thing in the finder, open it up, drag it in there? Why

01:11:00   can't I reliably make an alias to that and reopen it? How many different ways are there with aliases

01:11:04   and SIM links and internet addresses with SMB colon slash slash, which one of those should I use?

01:11:08   Which one will work reliably? Which one will stop working inexplicably? And why does it take so long

01:11:13   to do that? Airdrop is faster, but that's newer technology. But why does plain old file sharing

01:11:18   through the officially supported SMB file sharing? Why is that so slow? Why is it so bad? Why does it

01:11:22   have so many bugs? Why do things not work? Why can I not reliably make like an alias to a network

01:11:29   drive and have it mounted on launch because periodically that alias gets stale or goes bad

01:11:32   or dies or something like basic functionality, file sharing and mounting other Macs on your

01:11:38   desktop as a, as a volume should be so fast and so reliable and so brain dead simple. And it's not.

01:11:44   And that's, you know, that's what I want out of Mac OS. All that said, that's just my general

01:11:48   Mac OS rant because comparing to iOS. Ventura in the pantheon of recent Mac OS releases,

01:11:54   it's pretty okay. They didn't break many new things. Nothing terrible was in it. The stuff

01:12:00   they did added mostly kind of sort of works. The things that I'm complaining about are mostly

01:12:04   already there. So some settings is crap. We know that we, it did need to be redesigned and fixed.

01:12:10   This is not the greatest redesign. I do feel like Mac OS is going through this

01:12:14   weird phase where, I don't know. I was going to say where Apple can't decide what the UI is

01:12:20   supposed to look like. It seems like they have decided. It's just, I disagree with their decision.

01:12:23   Like the way controls look in the Swift UI Mac appearance, like the way buttons lurk, the way

01:12:28   like pop-up menus look and everything. I think it's bad. I think it's not good. I think they don't work

01:12:33   well. I think they don't look good. I think everything about them is bad. The worst than

01:12:38   the app kit controls that they replaced, but that's the direction Apple isn't going, is going

01:12:42   and that stuff can change over time. So we'll see if the course correct on that. Right. But

01:12:45   now we're in this weird place where if you look at what the UI looks like in system settings,

01:12:51   if that's the future of Mac UI, as opposed to the app kit controls that I use in my app,

01:12:56   I think all apps on Mac OS are going to start looking worse and working worse.

01:13:00   Hopefully they will fix that. But right now we have half and half. Some of Apple's old apps

01:13:04   have app kit style or even carbon style controls in them. I mean, I know carbon isn't running

01:13:08   anymore in 64 bit, but anyway, they have controls that look like the Mac OS from years past. And

01:13:13   then other ones use Swift UI and have Swift UI-ish Mac controls that look and work differently,

01:13:18   usually worse. And they're all coexisting. And, you know, we'll see if they get that straightened

01:13:23   out, but I really do wish Mac OS could, they could find a way to give Mac OS the right kind

01:13:29   of attention. It's never going to get the attention that iOS gets. It doesn't sell as much,

01:13:32   doesn't deserve as much attention. I get that. But like the resources they do have, I wish they

01:13:36   would put them on the more boring stuff of just, you know, fixing notifications, making system

01:13:43   settings way better and making like basic things like file sharing that haven't been touched in

01:13:48   decades. Just like, Hey, look at that with a modern lens and say, if we did this now,

01:13:52   would it suck this bad? And I really hope the answer is no.

01:13:55   Yeah. I think where I want to get with Mac OS, you know, I mentioned that with iPad OS,

01:14:02   I want to get to a place where I'm not constantly wanting to use a different platform. What I want

01:14:09   to get to with Mac OS is I want to get to a point where when I hear that Apple has redesigned or

01:14:16   rewritten something in Mac OS, I want it to not feel like dread. Well-founded dread, not just like

01:14:22   pessimistic dread, but like, you know, proven by past experiences and continuing evidence that when

01:14:28   they redo it, it's not going to be better. And we would like it to be better. One important

01:14:33   difference is that when you look at all the other OSes that we're, that we're talking about today,

01:14:36   watch OS, iOS, iPad, OS, even, Hey, throw in TV OS. One of the critical differences here is that

01:14:43   those are all based on iOS. And to some degree, UI kit, Mac OS is older and is different. And

01:14:50   the APIs are very different. The behaviors in the system, the capabilities of the system are very,

01:14:54   very different. It shows, it shows when, when you see Apple's attention to the OSes and to their

01:15:02   features and to their designs, that even though many, I'd say most of the software quality issues

01:15:09   that, that plagued them, you know, a little while back, I would say most of those issues are behind

01:15:14   them. Again, like I was saying earlier, I think their software quality is in a really good place

01:15:19   overall these days. And that really is to their credit, like the number of platforms they have,

01:15:23   that's not easy. I really do give them credit. Their software quality is substantially better

01:15:28   now than it was, you know, five, 10 years ago. And it's definitely in a pretty good overall place in

01:15:34   absolute terms. However, obviously there's, there's going to be things that are not so good in every

01:15:39   set of software and Mac OS, and especially in terms of design choices, seems really,

01:15:46   it needs a lot of work in those areas. Again, quality wise, you know, I'm not having to reboot

01:15:51   stuff, stuff's not crashing, like that's, that stuff is, is mostly good. Things mostly work.

01:15:55   **Matt Stauffer** But reaching for a button and having it disappear as your cursor goes toward it

01:15:59   is just one level removed from crashing and losing data, right? Because this is like fundamental,

01:16:04   basic functions. When a button appears on the screen, I should be able to click it with my

01:16:08   mouse pointer. And that's just not the case for years on end. And, and, you know, surely everyone

01:16:13   at Apple knows about this, but the fix doesn't get prioritized.

01:16:16   **Brian Stauffer** And, you know, when you look at trying to write, for instance, like I've,

01:16:19   as I'm doing this overcast rewrite, I've, I've so far kept everything Mac and iOS neutral. So I have

01:16:27   this huge amount of code that's like, you know, instead of using UI color or NS color for color

01:16:33   computations, I have things like platform color and trying to use Swift UI color whenever possible,

01:16:37   although I can't use everything with it because it doesn't offer all the variables and stuff.

01:16:40   It can't tell you RGB values and whatever. Anyway, so I have all this like cross-platform

01:16:45   glue code in there. And every time I launch the Mac build of my test app, it looks ridiculous

01:16:53   because Swift UI, the idea is you can share a lot of components between the platforms. You can even

01:16:59   maybe share like some certain layouts and stuff. And then you see the way it renders like something

01:17:04   that looks and works totally fine when it's an iPad or iPad or iPhone mode, or even in catalyst

01:17:10   mode on the Mac, you run it in Mac native app kit mode. And it's a train wreck or things are just

01:17:14   randomly broken. You know, there's more bugs like Swift UI in the Mac is in a pretty rough place

01:17:20   still. And it makes it very difficult to use both. And it's not app kit mode to be clear. That's the

01:17:25   thing that's so refreshing about the Mac. App kits controls and you know, carbon went away and

01:17:30   everything about it was all folded into app kit. There was a time where Mac, the set of controls on

01:17:35   Macs, buttons, radio buttons, check boxes, pop up, everything, scrolling views, all those controls,

01:17:41   those all existed, had tons of features, looked really good and were a hundred percent consistent.

01:17:47   And that period is over because now here comes the Swift UI version, which they're different. And

01:17:51   sometimes I feel like they're different because they, you know, they're different with reason.

01:17:54   They like someone has decided they think this is better, but they're just plain different. If,

01:17:59   if you know, running a Swift UI app in Mac mode used all app kit controls, it would probably still

01:18:05   be weird to get it to work right. You know, you'd have to pay some attention to it, but at least it

01:18:09   would be consistent, but it's not like that. Swift UI's Mac controls are kind of like modified iPad

01:18:16   OS controls kind of, sort of, but occasionally an actual app kit control will peek its head out and

01:18:21   it doesn't make for apps that, that look consistent, that work consistently. And again, I think the app

01:18:26   kit controls universally were better. They looked better, worked better, were easier to use, had

01:18:31   more features, were more obvious, more intuitive. They were just better. And maybe, you know, again,

01:18:35   Swift UI is young, maybe they'll fix it or whatever, but I feel like the people who are

01:18:38   designing the Mac look and feel for Swift UI don't understand what makes good Mac controls. It's kind

01:18:46   of like iOS 7 all over again, or it's like they have, they have this aesthetic idea only at least

01:18:50   iOS 7 look kind of cool. The Mac ones don't, they don't even look good and they don't have a lot of

01:18:54   features and they don't work well. And I think they're fundamentally barking up the wrong tree

01:18:58   when they think a pop-up menu should be some text with a V and an upside down V next to it.

01:19:04   Yeah. And I think that's like overall what I want, you know, the, the Swift, the Swift UI

01:19:10   fication of system settings and the rewrite of system settings on, on venture, obviously you

01:19:14   already mentioned how it's garbage and it is, and system settings over the last year has not gotten

01:19:18   any better. It is still, it still feels like a really rough beta. It doesn't even feel like a

01:19:23   1.0. It feels like a 0.8 or something like it feels like a rough beta and there should be still

01:19:27   a lot more iteration on both the design and the bugginess of it, but it kind of reflects the,

01:19:34   the general state of when Apple touches Mac OS, especially in the UI area, the results always

01:19:40   seem really half-assed. Like it doesn't seem like this is a nice, you know, unified design between

01:19:46   iPad OS and iOS and the Mac. No, it feels like iPad OS and iOS have their cool, nice design.

01:19:52   And the Mac is a half-assed clone of it or a half-assed re-implementation of it. That's how it

01:19:57   feels. We can quibble about design choices and we do, and we will, but I want the Mac to stop

01:20:05   feeling like every time they touch it, they do a really half-assed job of whatever they were trying

01:20:08   to do. And that is, I don't think Apple is, Apple has not shown that they have that level of rigor

01:20:15   and care about the Mac anymore software wise. Now hardware wise, it's been amazing recently with all

01:20:20   the Apple Silicon stuff, but software wise, Mac OS is mostly coasting on what was established a very

01:20:26   long time ago and the stuff they have changed, the stuff they have made new in recent years about

01:20:32   Mac OS, especially design wise, has been pretty shaky at best and really feels very half-assed at

01:20:38   worst. They're chipping away at that other stuff, like the old, the old, the old stuff like that,

01:20:43   that old stuff, granted it was old, but A, it was internally consistent and B, it was really good.

01:20:48   Like the same way we say we don't think there's a lot of people inside Apple who know how to make a

01:20:51   good Mac app, I'm not sure how many people are inside Apple who have ideas that I agree with

01:20:57   about how to make a good Mac user interface. Like again, the basics, controls, buttons, windows,

01:21:02   that whole nine yards, because every time they touch an area, they take an app kit looking thing

01:21:07   from decades ago that looked old and creaky, but nevertheless had internally consistent and very

01:21:11   good controls and they replace it with something like system settings. Like notifications got

01:21:15   replaced with a worse, an increasingly worse version of what was previously there. System

01:21:19   settings got replaced with, granted the old one was all old and creaky and needed to be expanded,

01:21:24   but all those controls, all those beautiful buttons and all those beautiful hand laid out

01:21:30   things got replaced with just this boiler plate thing that looks worse than a webpage. And it's

01:21:34   like, if that's your vision for the whole OS, I don't want you to find any more old,

01:21:37   creaky parts of the OS and replace them with that because you're making them worse. They look worse,

01:21:41   they feel worse, they are fundamentally worse. And they're buggy by the way with all the bugs.

01:21:45   It's so frustrating. Yeah, they work worse. Yeah. So it's kind of like, I think about that with my

01:21:51   own little applications, the parts I enjoy doing the little app kit things, the programming model

01:21:55   is old and janky, but like the result is a window, like a settings window that looks to me like a

01:22:00   settings window in a Mac application. I look at it and I say, that's a Mac settings. And other

01:22:05   apps are like that, Safari or other good Apple apps, they have Mac looking UIs, but some of them

01:22:11   don't. Some of them have weird, you would think, Oh, is this a catalyst app? And I'd be like, no,

01:22:16   that's 100% native Swift UI, Mac OS only app. You just think it's a catalyst app because you look at

01:22:22   those controls and think those don't look like Mac controls, but that's supposedly the future of Mac

01:22:26   controls. I don't know. I'm very frustrated with it. Like, I mean, it gets it done saying that

01:22:29   Ventura didn't really fundamentally break everything, but everything they do touch in

01:22:34   each new release is not an improvement on the old. It is just a replacement of the old with like a

01:22:40   creaky 1.0 of the new. And I don't like the new. In the defense of Mac OS though, I mean, obviously

01:22:46   YouTube both love it as well, but on a positive note for all of Apple's platforms as they exist

01:22:52   today and who knows what will exist in a week, but for all of Apple's platforms as they exist today,

01:22:58   for me, and I suspect for you too, Mac OS is the one where I am most at home. It is the one where

01:23:03   I feel most comfortable. It is the one where it gets in the way the least. Now I'm not saying

01:23:08   that's true for everyone. In fact, I would argue for a lot of people, especially not olds like us,

01:23:12   it's probably either iPad OS or iOS, but for me as a official old, I love sitting at my Mac.

01:23:20   Eric Meyer It's not that we're old,

01:23:21   it's that we're programmers, we're computer nerds, we're people who know and understand Unix stuff.

01:23:25   Like that's not true of the general public. That's why we feel the most comfortable there. It's also

01:23:29   why other people feel the most comfortable on their phones and iPads. Right? And so I don't

01:23:33   think it's like an age thing of like, because it's, you know, older, like we want something

01:23:37   that's older or whatever, like iOS is pretty darn old at this point, too. It's just that Mac is the

01:23:41   system, Mac OS is the system where you have the most freedom. It has a command line. It has,

01:23:46   it doesn't constrain us on what we can do. You can have multiple windows or the basic windowing

01:23:49   system you can move around. You can have always visible controls. You can put icons in your menu

01:23:53   bar, like all sorts of things that maybe the modern Apple wouldn't do, but that are here for

01:23:57   quote unquote legacy reasons. Mac OS is the platform that you use to develop for all of other

01:24:02   Apple's other platforms. Even, you know, I know you can, you know, develop on the iOS apps on the

01:24:07   iPad now or whatever, but I don't think many people would choose to do that willingly just because you

01:24:11   have so much more flexibility in a development environment and development tools and all that

01:24:16   stuff if you develop on a Mac. So I think that's why we like it. I said, it does mean that it is

01:24:22   narrow interest. It does mean that we are on the fringe because we're, you know, tech nerds who are

01:24:27   into the things that the Mac can do better, but it's not because we're old or there's something

01:24:33   old fashioned about the Mac. It is just simply the most powerful and flexible platform Apple has.

01:24:37   That's fair. I was mostly making fun of myself and trying to be silly, but you are completely correct

01:24:43   as always. And so I agree with you, but I don't know, I feel so much more at home and so much more

01:24:51   free on a Mac than I do on anything else. And there is something amazing about having an iPad

01:24:57   especially if you don't have it in the keyboard case, which I love, or the smart fancy magic

01:25:03   whatever keyboard. I know we went through what means what like a couple months ago and I always

01:25:06   forget, but when you have an iPad and that thin little sliver of a device with, you know, this

01:25:11   beautiful screen and optionally a pencil and you can be in the middle of anywhere because it has a

01:25:16   cellular modem, not to get Marco and I started, but you can be anywhere and do things on the internet.

01:25:21   And if you want to add a keyboard, you can, but you don't have to like, it is amazing. And I love

01:25:26   the iPad for that. And I love that I have the whole of human knowledge in my freaking pocket

01:25:32   with my iPhone. And I can be fast on the iPad. I can be fast on the iPhone, but never do I feel

01:25:39   as unconstrained. Is that a word? You know what I mean? I never feel more free than I do on the Mac.

01:25:46   And I feel that way even on the 13 inch MacBook Pro screen in and of itself, which honestly is way

01:25:51   too small for any serious use, but you know what? It still works. I feel extremely that way when I

01:25:57   have my two 5K screens. You know, I'm sure this is the same for you guys and your ridiculously

01:26:03   expensive monitors. It's just, I feel so free and I feel like I can get things done so much faster.

01:26:10   And that's what I love so much about the Mac. And just to very quickly pick out one thing on this,

01:26:17   honestly, mostly unimpressive marketing page, continuity camera. If you just bought an Apple

01:26:22   monitor that maybe has a piss poor camera on it, continuity camera is a pretty nice feature,

01:26:27   especially when you hoard old iPhones. So I have, I don't use the like hub features of the studio

01:26:35   display for anything except a USB-C to lightning cable that's plugged into my last year's iPhone

01:26:42   that sits on top of my studio display 24/7. And every once in a while, it'll take me like flipping

01:26:48   to a different camera and then flipping back to the continuity camera to get it to work.

01:26:52   But once I do that, it looks great. It works flawlessly. It is amazing. And I know that for

01:26:58   you guys, you don't have any camera to worry about onboard the screen. And I know you've had to add

01:27:03   your own, but I really love if you're one of those seven idiots that keeps their old phones like I do,

01:27:09   this is an incredibly useful feature that I use several times a month as I'm having chats with

01:27:14   friends that are overseas and so on. And I really have enjoyed continuity, continuity camera quite a lot.

01:27:20   We are brought to you this week by Green Chef, a CCOF certified meal kit company. Green Chef makes

01:27:29   eating well easy with plans to fit every lifestyle, whether you're keto, paleo, vegan, vegetarian,

01:27:35   gluten free, or just looking to eat more balanced meals. Green Chef offers a range of recipes to

01:27:40   suit your preferences. Green Chef is also now owned by HelloFresh. And with a wider array of

01:27:45   meal plans to choose from, there is something for everyone between those two wonderful brands.

01:27:50   So Green Chef has more customization than ever before. So in addition to now being able to swap

01:27:56   protein into any meal that features chicken, beef or salmon for USDA certified organic ground beef,

01:28:01   USDA certified organic chicken or wild caught sockeye salmon. Now you can also add chicken or

01:28:06   fish to select vegan and veggie recipes each week for an added protein boost if you eat meat.

01:28:11   You can also eat well at lunchtime with their 10 minute lunches. Each week's menu includes two

01:28:16   convenient low prep and nutritious lunch recipes ready in just 10 minutes with no cooking required.

01:28:21   So that's great for maybe you're on the go, maybe you're trying to make something at the office.

01:28:25   And Green Chef just has so much variety for every lifestyle. They're also the only keto meal kit.

01:28:32   So Green Chef, if you follow keto, they make sticking to a carb conscious lifestyle easy.

01:28:37   They also have nutritionist approved recipes including meals under 700 calories,

01:28:42   high protein meals with at least 50 grams of protein per serving or flavorful plant rich

01:28:46   vegan and vegetarian meals featuring certified organic produce, good for you grains and plant

01:28:51   based proteins. All of this is super convenient and easy. You can bring more flavor to your table

01:28:57   this summer with Green Chef's delicious nutritionist recipes featuring certified organic

01:29:02   fruits and vegetables, unique farm fresh ingredients like tart cherries, truffle zest and

01:29:06   rainbow carrots and so much more. This is a great company. Go to green chef.com slash ATP 60 and use

01:29:14   code ATP 60 to get 60% off plus free shipping. That's green chef.com slash ATP 60 code ATP 60

01:29:23   to get 60% off plus free shipping. Thank you so much to Green Chef, the number one meal kit for

01:29:28   eating well for sponsoring our show. So is there anything else going on this week or should we just

01:29:36   end here? Let me do a little speed run of the the last minute rumor slash preview things just because

01:29:42   it's mostly obvious stuff and we can get to it quickly. Headset we've been talking about it

01:29:48   forever. People keep talking more and more about it. A couple things on that. One as pointed out

01:29:52   I think on the talk show recently or maybe was on dithering I forget. One of the early tales of like

01:29:57   whether Apple is going to actually release something that has been heavily rumored is as

01:30:01   the date approaches if there's no if you don't see any reports of a denial saying actually everyone

01:30:08   thought this thing was going to come out at WWC but rumor has it that actually it's not now.

01:30:13   That hasn't happened. Whether or not Apple strategically leaks those to tamp down expectations

01:30:19   so people don't go to a WWC keynote expecting them to release the Apple car and then everyone's all

01:30:24   disappointed because they didn't release the car and afterwards every single story is about there

01:30:27   was no car there was no car. That's the kind of time when it would behoove Apple to strategically

01:30:32   leak the information that there's not going to be a car this time. Well they haven't done that with

01:30:37   the headset. So far one week out there is no story that says everyone's expecting the headset but it

01:30:43   turns out Apple is not going to reveal it. This is setting aside of when they're going to ship it or

01:30:46   when it will be available or anything else like that. Everyone thinks the headset is coming and

01:30:51   there hasn't been no sort of rumored denial. Adding more support to it. Apple has apparently invited

01:30:57   a bunch of what this article phrases as XR media outlets which is like you know AR/VR whatever.

01:31:04   These are websites publications that are focused on AR/VR that have previously not been invited

01:31:10   to Apple keynotes. So press from these websites like Upload VR and what is this one called

01:31:16   roadtovr.com. These people have previously not gotten press invites and this time they did.

01:31:23   Why would these people get press invite now? I wonder. Maybe it's because Apple is going to

01:31:30   reveal the headset. Steve Trouton Smith pointed out today that the OS behind this which we've known

01:31:35   has been you know rumored to be called reality OS whatever the trademark is. We had an item in the

01:31:41   show so we didn't get to it before it was like XR OS XR OS Pro with XR being lowercase or whatever.

01:31:46   Steve Trouton Smith says it's such an open secret that they didn't even bother scrubbing the most

01:31:51   recent references they left in their open source linker and you can put a link to GitHub where you

01:31:55   can see and Enum showing all the different platforms and there's a platform for iOS,

01:31:59   TV OS, watch OS, bridge OS, iOS Mac which that's what catalyst is I believe.

01:32:03   There the final two Enums are reality OS and reality simulator. Undisguised in GitHub in

01:32:10   parts like that's the type of stuff that they would in past years try to remove from their betas

01:32:15   try to remove from their open source but it's like it's like look W2C is next week. Why even

01:32:20   bother hiding it? Yes the thing was internally called reality OS the Enums are probably going

01:32:25   to be reality OS that's what the symbols would be maybe the branding will be XR OS or whatever.

01:32:29   By the way can we just I hope it's reality OS because that's such a better name than XR OS.

01:32:34   Yeah like they filed a bunch of trademarks for XR OS or XR OS Pro those may just be protective

01:32:39   trademarks or whatever. The word reality when it comes to 3D computer graphics stuff has a long

01:32:46   history with SGI and also I think maybe with MIPS and N64 which are also connected to SGI.

01:32:53   So Cisco had a product called iPhone and trademark on it.

01:32:56   Yeah no no I'm not saying that's why they can't use it I'm saying that's why it is a fitting word

01:32:59   because it has kind of a storied history in the world of 3D or whatever but I'm not sure the word

01:33:04   reality means anything to people of course XR doesn't mean anything to regular people because

01:33:10   they don't know the X is a placeholder for A and VR as we just discussed with these media outlets.

01:33:14   In the end the brain doesn't matter that much how many people know what the name of the OS is on

01:33:18   their iPad or on their iPhone and the fact they change names is just is another example of Apple's

01:33:24   platform naming they're stuck on this lowercase letters with capital OS which I've never really

01:33:30   liked it was fine for iOS but then when they did Mac OS all lowercase anyway whatever the point is

01:33:34   the mounting evidence that Apple will reveal the headset to WWC is now just it's like as close to

01:33:42   100% as you can ever get with that actual confirmation. So that's going to happen probably

01:33:48   we'll talk more about it next week the other thing related to the headset which is that the the people

01:33:53   who can't keep secrets are now demonstrating they can't keep secrets and can't contain themselves

01:33:59   by leaving subtle hints or rumors or stories about game developers being buddy buddy with

01:34:06   appy so with Apple so Hideo Kojima the maker of the Metal Gear series maker of Death Stranding

01:34:12   very famous you know creator of video games that you that many people know and love has been seen

01:34:18   around Apple campus supposedly there's been rumors that they're working with Apple or whatever

01:34:23   Sean Murray the person who made No Man's Sky the video game just tweeted today like

01:34:30   this morning I guess a single Apple emoji that was the entire tweet yeah that's that was like

01:34:39   not subtle that's the thing about being a famous game developer like Apple can't fire them because

01:34:44   they don't work for Apple whatever deal they have with Apple is too far along to be canned

01:34:48   although Steve Jobs would kick somebody out of the keynote if they pissed him off enough

01:34:51   but he's not around anymore and what are you going to do what are you going to say oh now

01:34:55   we're not going to work with Hideo Kojima because he leaked something or because he was spotted at

01:34:59   a Starbucks near Apple or whatever we've talked a lot about like what are they going to try to

01:35:04   pitch the headset for and the thing that headsets are most well known for in the world right now is

01:35:09   games despite Facebook trying to make it for doing meetings and stuff like that VR games have been a

01:35:13   thing for many many years the big gaming company Oculus was made as a gaming headset and you know

01:35:18   anyway so we've wondered what Apple is going to do there this smoke around the you know famous game

01:35:24   luminaries orbiting this makes it think that Apple will have some portion of the keynote where they

01:35:28   will try desperately to convince you that in addition to all the other wonderful things that

01:35:33   their headset does it's a great platform for gaming and here are some famous game people to

01:35:36   let you know that their famous games are going to be on this new platform that's better than nothing

01:35:42   on the last episode I was saying how Apple needs to pay people money to bring their games to their

01:35:46   platform the the thing is you have to be it's all about consistency you have to do that you have to

01:35:52   do it consistently on an ongoing basis you can't just do the thing that Apple has always done which

01:35:56   is one big famous person or game shows their big famous their big famous product from three years

01:36:03   ago runs really well on a Mac I know everyone who cares about game has already played it maybe you

01:36:08   even already played it in VR but now that three-year-old game that you already played in VR

01:36:12   is available on the Apple headset and that's it right or maybe two other games and like just

01:36:18   compare that to what Microsoft had to do with the Xbox they had to consistently over years and years

01:36:23   and years court game developers pay game developers money acquire game developers be really dedicated

01:36:28   to the production of games in a kind of in the way that Apple has been trying to do with Apple TV plus

01:36:34   television shows where I feel like they've have actually put their money where their mouth is and

01:36:37   paid to have lots of television shows produced and when some of them didn't turn out that well they

01:36:41   didn't give up and say oh well we'll try again another decade no they made more shows with more

01:36:45   people and they found the people who knew how to make TV shows and they found stars who are good in

01:36:48   television and writers who like that's what they would have to do with games so anyway the rumors

01:36:53   about these famous people orbiting around Apple makes me think that there will be a significant

01:36:58   game portion of the headset thing where they will show some famous games and some famous game makers

01:37:02   running on the headset but that by no means is sufficient to make this a viable gaming platform

01:37:08   unless Apple actually follows through for the first time in their entire history when it comes

01:37:12   to games so fingers crossed in that but headset seems like it's going to be there nobody disagrees

01:37:18   one week out if at this point if it's not there if there's no rumors in the next week and the headset

01:37:24   isn't there I think people people are just going to be sad and mopey walking away from that screen so

01:37:29   I think it's going to happen yeah I feel like you know if you look around the industry

01:37:32   and you know we touched a little bit last week everyone is talking about new AI capabilities

01:37:39   everyone every large tech company is investing massively in these new AI techniques large

01:37:45   language model based things like their generation like there's so much in these new AI techniques

01:37:52   and abilities that we've gotten in the last you know year basically in the in the industry

01:37:55   that we're investing in super heavily in every other company and Apple it seems like is not

01:38:01   probably ready to show anything in that area yet I hope they're investing heavily in it

01:38:06   I hope they realize how important it is I hope they fix Siri but it seems like none of that is

01:38:12   probably on the table for this this year's W2C and this year's platforms so in the absence of that

01:38:18   I feel like we need something else that's really nice can you imagine if they didn't have the

01:38:23   headset this year how angry the press would be after an entire keynote where they don't mention

01:38:27   AI once yeah right and I mean and as I said last time I'm pretty sure they're gonna find some

01:38:33   little token things that they can call AI that they would have previously called ml or Siri

01:38:38   anything that you previously called ml just swap the letters out normal note yeah exactly but like

01:38:42   you know I feel like they they need to have something to and I know this is not why these

01:38:47   things are shipping there but like they need to have something to distract the press from their

01:38:52   lack of AI you know announcements that are that's likely I mean and it's not just a distraction it's

01:38:57   a new platform it's a big deal like it's not like this is a diversion don't look over there it's just

01:39:01   a happy accident that they have this massive new product that's been rumored for years that unlike

01:39:05   the car is actually going to be revealed to the public and that will really do a good job of

01:39:12   tamping down the AI angst which will still exist by the way they will get asked about it but you

01:39:16   know not as much yeah and I really I have high hopes for this platform because I mean first of

01:39:23   all look I like Apple I don't want them to lose you know like I want I don't want them to have a flop

01:39:27   but also just as a technologist and as a developer this is really baffling to me why this thing would

01:39:34   be so amazing and you know I'd like you know in my house my son has the the Facebook quest too

01:39:41   and it's it's a totally fine product it's a little getting a little long in the tooth I know

01:39:46   Germin had a quest 3 little preview piece the other day but you know it is a very

01:39:54   PC product it's like here's a thing that's like this plastic piece of garbage that has

01:40:01   low resolution screens and it is you know it's uncomfortable on me you know I the optics

01:40:09   aren't great for my eyes and how often does it get used how often does it get used in your house

01:40:13   compared to like the plain old switch or the iPad well it depends well it kind of I know what you're

01:40:18   getting at because it goes month at a time without being used but it is currently there's this

01:40:23   adorable game called gorilla tag that my kid is super into and it basically seems as far as I can

01:40:28   tell like just like a giant playground that's mostly other kids that are his age group just

01:40:32   like running around yelling and jumping on stuff and it's actually ingenious because you know one

01:40:37   of the big problems with VR games is like if you have to move your legs in the game you're going to

01:40:41   walk into walls and stuff in real life and so in this game they simulate all the kids are basically

01:40:47   simulated as gorillas with no legs so they walk they walk on their arms and so he's up there like

01:40:54   swinging his he's getting the most buff shoulders for a kid for an 11 year old because he's he's

01:41:00   like swinging his arms moving around it's it's so funny and it seems to be only like children who

01:41:06   play this game like I like you can hear over the voice chat when you're in the room you hear the

01:41:09   other kids and like there's no older kids or adults playing this game like it's all children

01:41:14   and it's so adorable and it seems like there's no like you know combat or you know anything like

01:41:18   that it just seems like a nice you know wholesome thing anyway so right now it's getting used a lot

01:41:22   very heavily but you know I also see the limitations of it you know I personally can't

01:41:28   really use it very comfortably for a very long time it is not good for my eyes I do get a little

01:41:33   bit motion sick with it and I'm not usually a motion sick sensitive person like so that's

01:41:37   that's saying a lot and I don't find the game experiences that compelling on it yet and maybe

01:41:42   that's because I'm not a gamer much and you know maybe I'm just missing stuff but I haven't found

01:41:45   it that compelling and you know using using the hand controllers is clunky and stuff like that and

01:41:50   so when I hear about the Apple headset rumors and from people who know more about this than I do

01:41:57   you know things like the hand tracking the eye tracking the foveated rendering with higher

01:42:01   resolution displays all this stuff that is the that it's pretty heavily rumored to have

01:42:06   sounds like it is going to be substantially better than what I have tried so far which is this dumb

01:42:12   thing it should be like quadruple the price yeah at least quadruple if not more but you know it

01:42:18   sound it sounds like what we're what Apple is going to release here or at least unveil here

01:42:23   is not just a small step above what we've seen but a big step above what we've seen and that has me

01:42:30   excited because while the existing products have not been compelling for me again I don't believe

01:42:35   Apple would ship something if it wasn't if they didn't really believe it was compelling and I can't

01:42:40   imagine you know a high level Apple person using a Quest 2 and be like yeah this is pretty good

01:42:45   let's just let's just match this no that's that that would never happen I guarantee you the Apple

01:42:51   attitude towards towards those products would be about as positive as you know when Steve Jobs had

01:42:55   to demo that Motorola rocker phone like it would it would be you know not not glowing I mean there

01:43:01   are higher end things in the quest the quest is fairly low and there are higher end like PC gaming

01:43:06   VR headsets and Apple's probably going to basically match them maybe be a little bit better the

01:43:10   software story may be better it'll probably be more more refined more you know higher performance

01:43:14   lower latency hopefully but it's not going to be 10 times better than any existing headset the

01:43:19   question is like how much does the how much is Apple able to elevate it the way it usually does

01:43:23   by you know just making the the software better having a more compelling story about use cases

01:43:29   and the other thing I'm really interested about it by the reveal of this is it's the most recent test

01:43:35   of Apple's hardware design you know with respect to the things that we have complained about in the

01:43:43   past about their obsession with simplicity and removing ports and you know all that type of thing

01:43:48   like designing it to be a beautiful object a beautiful featureless object with adhering to

01:43:56   certain aesthetic principles rather than making it usable rather than recognizing what do people

01:44:01   want to use this for and it's it comes to a head particularly on devices that you wear the watch

01:44:07   did a pretty good job of this I think and that the watch does not have any sharp things that shove

01:44:14   that poke into your wrist right they it's it generally fits on your body and the watch straps

01:44:19   fit on your body in a way that recognizes the size and shape of human wrists and what they're

01:44:24   made out of like I think it does an okay job but I do worry a lot about this headset I want what

01:44:30   I'm looking at is like what does what does the hardware look like because I look at you know

01:44:35   let's look at the the AirPods Max the big over-ear headphones which I think have a lot of problems

01:44:40   yeah those look really nice but ergonomically there's some some fairly obvious fumbles one of

01:44:46   the biggest ones is the ear cups have metal on them which looks and feels great in premium but

01:44:51   it's heavy and this is the type of trade-off I'm looking to see when when Apple comes to a decision

01:44:56   like that well we could make the ear cup things out of metal and they'll be gorgeous and feel

01:45:03   really good and be very during durable and sturdy but also they'll be really heavy and that could be

01:45:08   wearing over time what should we choose should we make them lightweight but have it be not quite as

01:45:13   premium looking or should we just go for the thing that looks and feels the best and not worry about

01:45:17   the weight and I think they made the wrong call on the AirPods Max and for a headset that type of

01:45:21   thing is paramount that also gets back to the whole you know compute module battery pack thing

01:45:26   on your belt I think that would be the right decision rather than trying to build it into

01:45:30   a thing that goes in your face they recognize that after testing this thing for however many years

01:45:34   having lots of weight on your face doesn't feel good so let's get that weight away and so when

01:45:40   I'm looking at this thing they want people to strap on their face what I want to see is I would

01:45:44   you know again the ideal is like if I have to put it on my face it better be the oxo good grips of

01:45:49   headsets I do not want any part of this thing to have been designed to look nice to look symmetrical

01:45:55   to look like anime from the 90s I don't want it I want nothing about this to be like I care about

01:46:01   how I look I want first and foremost the highest priority to be comfortable on people's faces

01:46:06   breathable light no places that pinch you good visibility in the ways that you want to have

01:46:11   visible like just everything about it doesn't make you sweaty has has an easy way to put in

01:46:17   the prescription lens thingies they're going to support like just because you know the watch you

01:46:22   wear but it's your wrist is fairly you know far away from the the sensitive organs that do all

01:46:28   your sensing like your nose and your mouth and your eyes and your ears right this thing is on

01:46:31   it's not just on your head it's on your face and so this is a a perfect crucible for apple's worse

01:46:38   predilections of like we want it to be a beautiful symmetrical solid with no features on it made of

01:46:43   sharp aluminum and really heavy and like all that and on the other side is yeah but I have this

01:46:47   thing on my head while we've been testing for the past three years and it sucks when it's like that

01:46:51   so that is the number one thing I'm looking forward to is when they reveal this headset

01:46:56   I obviously I'm not gonna be able to tell by looking at it but like when they reveal this

01:46:58   headset does it look like something that was designed to look beautiful or does it look like

01:47:03   something that was designed to be comfortable ideally you do both like obviously the apple

01:47:06   ideal is oh it looks beautiful and it's also comfortable and it's breathable and you don't

01:47:11   get sweaty and and and and you don't get motion sick because we made the latency low like that's

01:47:15   that's the ideal but in any design there are trade-offs and historically especially recently

01:47:20   historically apple has made poor trade-offs when it came to those stitches they reverse a lot of

01:47:25   them on the laptop so kudos so they're going in the right direction but the headset team like

01:47:30   there's nothing that the laptop team did that I can say and that will transfer directly to the

01:47:33   headset because they'll they'll you know learn from like this is totally separate like totally

01:47:37   separate development lines so totally separate everything so that is the thing that I'm most

01:47:42   looking forward to only because I don't believe the Mac Pro is going to be released but you know

01:47:47   setting aside the Mac Pro which seems like it's not going to happen speaking of rumors of things

01:47:51   that aren't going to happen you know but we did get the rumor that's not going to happen and that

01:47:54   hasn't shifted so I'm I want to see what this headset says about how apple is thinking about

01:48:01   designing things that literally go on people's faces because that will give us a good idea of

01:48:07   you know how much the company has learned over the years all right and and for me personally like I

01:48:13   if Marco gets motion sick with it I will get massively much I get motion sick so easily so

01:48:17   this is probably not going to be a product for me it doesn't mean I'm not interested in it I'm

01:48:21   interested in it and I think apple should make it and do it and I look forward to the day when when

01:48:25   it gets to the level where I can use it without getting sick but I have no illusions that that

01:48:29   day is going to be you know next Monday and that's fine like I'm I'm not in the market for it I just

01:48:35   that's why I'm looking at from a more academic perspective what does this product say about

01:48:39   how apple designs things I would expect apple to be pretty good at things like avoiding motion

01:48:47   sickness you know when you when you look at the software stacks of of how to ensure like really

01:48:52   high performance for what is effectively a giant game environment all the time even like even if

01:48:56   you're not playing a game in it it's basically a game a game engine running you know for a lot of

01:49:02   this stuff to work and apple is actually pretty good at the the level of like top to bottom

01:49:10   hardware software integration to be able to do things like super low latency input or output you

01:49:17   know yeah I mean but I'm sure they're gonna do really well but I'm not sure technology is there

01:49:22   yet to get this to the level where someone like me can wear without getting motion sick I mean and no

01:49:27   there's not a single headset that exists today that people say and don't worry no one will ever

01:49:32   get motion sick it's just a question of who and by how much and unfortunately I'm at the far end of

01:49:37   that spectrum so I think apple will do a good job because they do tightly control the hardware but I

01:49:41   just I'm not at this point I don't think it's technologically possible to make a consumer

01:49:47   headset that does not cause people like me to get motion sick and that's not apple's fault and I'm

01:49:52   not saying they should wait until it is it's just it's just a fact of life well I mean but it's also

01:49:57   apple's style to wait until they can do something that makes effectively no one motion sick and then

01:50:04   release a product and only do things that would not make people motion say like that I can totally see

01:50:08   them doing that and they and you know we're looking at obviously much higher component costs than this

01:50:14   we're looking at a much higher power envelope and much higher end chips powering it so maybe it's

01:50:19   possible like maybe they have achieved that I can't imagine apple would release something that

01:50:23   a large portion of the population would get motion sick from no it'll be it'll be small but I think

01:50:29   it could push up against double digits because I feel like that's the true of the existing high-end

01:50:34   headsets it also depends on the software obviously this is another thing you know if you've used my

01:50:37   headsets that like the actual software that's running on them like the game friends make has

01:50:42   a huge influence over whether you're getting motion sick so it's not just the hardware and

01:50:46   that is another area where I hope apple would do a good job in it like you know whatever their os is

01:50:50   or however apps work because that you know it's apple's filled with regular people who are

01:50:55   employees and some percentage of the apple employees who worked on this headset are just

01:50:58   as susceptible motion sickness as I am so they know they know how it breaks down even if it's

01:51:02   like oh they don't let the public use it they don't know there's enough people working on this that

01:51:06   apple kind of knows like which things are causing the most motion sickness like is this the setting

01:51:11   screens and xros is that causing motion sickness what can we do to fix it like they've had years

01:51:16   to work on this so I think they're going to do the best they can I just again I'm not willing to

01:51:20   believe the technology has got to the point where um I'm going to be in the fold eventually it will

01:51:25   right but maybe not this year but that's fine but you know I just I just hope they do a good job

01:51:30   that's why I hope they do a good job with the fundamentals of the physical reality of it

01:51:33   because I think there'll be many years before the physical reality becomes actual little glasses

01:51:37   and so if they get the fundamentals of the headset right kind of like they got the fundamental

01:51:40   ergonomics of the laptop right with the power book keyboard pushed up pointing device down

01:51:45   in the middle in the center uh it took them a few tries with their portal quote-unquote portable

01:51:50   computers but that fundamental design was good and better than everything it became before it

01:51:55   and has lasted and has stood the test of time touch bar notwithstanding you know I'm very

01:52:01   interested to see John what you specifically feel about the headset in no small part because of the

01:52:06   three of us you're the only one with eyeglasses and I have to imagine there will be a story around

01:52:10   that but it's the story that you have eyeglasses what are you talking about no he has super super

01:52:15   special contacts right I know but you've also got glasses but for when you take contacts out

01:52:19   yes but I never take my contacts out except when I sleep because otherwise I'm friggin blind don't

01:52:24   you have reading glasses now Marco yes I do and that sucks I hate every moment of it we're all

01:52:31   enough to have glasses yeah no and I by the way I also do have contacts by the way reading glasses

01:52:36   don't seem to be addressed by any VR headset I've ever seen I mean maybe you know I don't follow the

01:52:40   news as closely as you maybe I'm missing like the ones that have customs things but the thing is

01:52:45   everything in well things inside VR headsets are physically close to your eyes bottom line like

01:52:51   even even if you're doing the outside camera view type of thing so I think if there's someone like

01:52:55   Marco whose eyes have difficulty focusing on things that are close by there may need to be some

01:53:01   lens help out there for maybe I don't know what Marcos prescription is but like it's not much it's

01:53:06   like 0.75 magnification yeah you'll probably be fine and in fact it'll maybe help you uh the

01:53:11   pixels blur together but like that's another thing that you know every headset manufacturer knows that

01:53:15   people don't have provisions you must accommodate for some kind of you know diopter adjustment or

01:53:20   prescription lenses prescription lenses is going farther than just like diopter adjustment because

01:53:25   you can have things like astigmatism that are not easy to do by just moving lenses back and forth

01:53:28   and anyway I I do hope Apple does a good job of that I've also like for like I don't know if this

01:53:33   I don't know what part of visual problems this is but I had this problem with both the Quest 2 and

01:53:39   with the the DJI headset that I briefly owned for that DJI fpv drone that I briefly owned that like

01:53:47   I can never get things set right so that the center of my field of view and the edges of my

01:53:52   field of view are all in focus in one of those headsets like the edges the the outer edges of

01:53:57   my field of view were always blurry and I don't know like again I mean this is one of the like

01:54:01   I have pretty good eyes overall and yet I still have problems like this because of this one minor

01:54:06   flaw that I have people have so many different you know eye conditions and lens shapes and

01:54:10   different abilities and different you know needs for different corrections this is going to be a

01:54:14   tough problem to solve and frankly I I hope that and I think I have I have pretty good faith that

01:54:20   Apple has probably put a lot of effort into making this as accessible to different people's eye needs

01:54:27   as they possibly can compared to the rest of the industry because that's the kind of thing they

01:54:30   would care about but I also don't know like what what are the physical limits of what they can even

01:54:36   correct easily and you know maybe they maybe they just can't correct for certain types of conditions

01:54:40   yet and maybe they never can and that's why like I'm a little worried about this product's overall

01:54:45   accessibility even if you get past issues of price which is its own version of accessibility but you

01:54:51   know even if you get past that are there going to be certain you know eye conditions or or other

01:54:57   types of you know ability differences that make it impossible to use this product and would people

01:55:03   with those conditions or or abilities have just this entire world of technology that they can't

01:55:08   access like I hopefully Apple will do the best job they can for that and Apple I think of all the tech

01:55:14   of all the major tech companies I think they do the best work in accessibility by far so hopefully

01:55:20   they would accommodate as best as they possibly can all different abilities and needs but this

01:55:26   kind of product is so specialized because it goes right on your face and is right on your eyes like

01:55:31   and it has to measure your hand tracking allegedly and you know what if you have motor difficulties

01:55:35   like there's all sorts of potential accessibility limitations and challenges with this product that

01:55:40   that again I have I have a lot of faith in Apple to address those to whatever degree they can but

01:55:45   they might not be able to for certain for certain things. I think Microsoft is the leader in

01:55:50   accessibility when it comes to gaming they have tons of custom controllers for more accessible

01:55:55   custom controllers they've gone way above and beyond what any other gaming company has done

01:56:00   for you know to provide more accessible interface to video games so you can play

01:56:05   full-fledged AAA same video games as everybody else but with with controllers that if you look

01:56:10   at them they may not make sense to you until you see somebody using them Apple doesn't have

01:56:14   a controller at all they're just there's third-party controllers for iOS and Apple TV

01:56:20   and everything controlling games on Apple platforms sucks equally for everybody yeah well no I mean

01:56:24   you can use you can use your PlayStation controller but Apple has basically seeded that market to

01:56:27   third parties but Microsoft has put considerable effort into it this is another place where we can

01:56:30   look at what Apple does and compare it to well I keep comparing them to Microsoft because Microsoft

01:56:34   actually did break into the gaming market and showed what it takes to do that and by the way

01:56:38   it's been so hard for them that there are they're currently considering maybe bailing out I'm not

01:56:42   sure they're going to do that but anyway what does Apple do in the area of accessibility so they have

01:56:47   people come up and say okay we're going to show our the cool video games that you know be supportive

01:56:52   of headset or whatever do they take any time to say oh and by the way since AR/VR games demand

01:56:59   more of you physically to be able to play them here is the our accessibility story for that because it

01:57:04   is it is more demanding you mentioned an atom waving his arms around or whatever like it there

01:57:08   it's physically more demanding to play most VR games because you're not just sitting on the

01:57:13   couch motionless with your thumbs on a thumb stick and even that has accessibility issues because

01:57:17   you know there's lots of controls lots of buttons they're not easy to hit depending on you know what

01:57:22   kind of mobility you have and how about control you have your digits that's why they have those

01:57:26   you know all sorts of accessible controls that Microsoft are going to I'll try to find a link to

01:57:29   show notes to show people what those are like but they're really cool but yeah VR also has that same

01:57:35   story and I'm not you know again it's a 1.0 you don't expect Apple out the door to have this it

01:57:38   took Microsoft years and years and years to get seriously into accessibility for console games so

01:57:44   I'm not going to fault Apple if they don't have a big story there but it is it's what we talk about

01:57:49   with these headsets all the time how many people are you removing from your market by requiring

01:57:56   them to put something on your face by requiring them to be able to wave their hands around to be

01:57:59   requiring them to be able to stand up and turn their head or focus their eyes or all the other

01:58:03   things that this this headset will demand for you to do anything with it how narrow are you

01:58:09   you know how narrow is your market going to be when all is said and done and again for a 1.0 it

01:58:14   might end up being pretty narrow all I know is sitting here today and we've talked about this

01:58:19   a lot I have no damn idea what the point of this is but the closer we get to this phantom headset

01:58:28   thing leaving aside the fact that I cannot fathom looking in the mirror and saying yes this is worth

01:58:36   three thousand dollars much less saying to Aaron hey I think I want to spend three thousand dollars

01:58:39   for something that may or may not ever be anything but all that aside guarantee you buy one oh it

01:58:45   I'm sure I will it's for the business Aaron what do you want from me it's for the business

01:58:49   see at least at least I don't tell myself I'm not going to but that's true there are two rumors

01:58:54   related to this by the way related to Casey buying it and the price and whatever the rumors are one

01:59:00   that someone did like a bill of materials check on it because now so many rumors have leaked that

01:59:04   they know like this is the vendor of the screens this is the vendor of the you know all that like

01:59:07   they did a bill materials thing and they said the cost of the thing is around fifteen sixteen

01:59:11   hundred dollars and the other rumor is that Apple would be selling this at cost and not making its

01:59:16   customary thirty forty percent margins so we're thinking like two thousand maybe yeah those are

01:59:21   both true maybe the thing comes out as a sixteen hundred dollar device like that they're not there

01:59:25   that it would be even like a loss leader they might even lose a little bit I don't know if I

01:59:29   believe that but you know it's a thing that's happened you know occasionally in the game

01:59:33   console world it always happens except for if you're Nintendo the other console makers when

01:59:38   their consoles first come out they sell them at a small loss and eventually they start selling at a

01:59:41   profit Nintendo has been more like Apple and said you know what we always want to make a profit but

01:59:45   then does that by cheaping out on the hardware Apple does it by raising the price so we'll see

01:59:49   so I feel like the uh the case is saying oh how am I going to spend three thousand dollars in this

01:59:54   there is a possibility however dim it might be that it won't be three thousand dollars so we'll

02:00:00   see yeah and I agree with you and and I also agree with Marco that I'm sure I'll end up getting one

02:00:05   because I can't resist but um but all that said I I have crossed the the Rubicon the threshold from

02:00:14   what really into really really what's this going to be about I'm excited to see what this is going

02:00:21   to be and so I'm really stoked for as we sit here and recording this a week from today I am really

02:00:26   really stoked to see what what is this what does it look like what is the point what is their spin

02:00:33   are they just going to throw a bunch of random different styles of pasta against the wall and

02:00:36   see what what sticks like they did with the watch are they going to have an extraordinarily mature

02:00:41   and specific story about it I I am really excited to see what this is I'm really excited to try one

02:00:49   whenever that may be maybe when that's when maybe that's when I receive mine maybe that's when I get

02:00:55   like an appointment at the Apple store like we did with the watches um I'm super excited to hear you

02:01:01   know for those that are able to try them at WWDC because presumably whether or not the broader press

02:01:06   does you got to imagine like these these xr you know press people will you know probably some

02:01:12   general video game uh press establishments will you know Apple I was just about to say you know

02:01:18   how much Apple loves YouTubers these days podcasts don't exist but the YouTubers they're where the

02:01:21   coolest they're cool kids are um so yeah so I'm curious to see what they have to say uh I'm just

02:01:27   I'm excited to hear it and it it almost it's almost a bummer that this is the event for it

02:01:34   because I I'm also excited for new ipad os I'm excited for new ios I'm excited for whatever

02:01:40   ridiculous part of California we're getting on our max next but I almost don't care about those

02:01:45   because I'm so hyper focused on what this headset is and what does it mean for me yeah like I care

02:01:54   a lot about those but I think they are so overshadowed in in in like the hype and the

02:02:00   attention and the anticipation because we are going to get a new platform in all likelihood

02:02:05   and that is that is a very exciting thing yeah yeah I'm still excited for the boring stuff but

02:02:10   one one thing related in case this doesn't end up being released I just want to mention it now

02:02:13   because it was one of the most fun rumors I saw and I just assumed I'd be able to talk about it

02:02:16   when it gets released but maybe it's totally false but anyway uh it was an ios 17 rumor and the rumor

02:02:22   was that on the multitasking switcher on an ios they'll have a button that basically removes

02:02:28   everything from that screen uh and now the question is does it does it do the equivalent of

02:02:35   force quitting every single one of those applications or does it just remove all the pictures

02:02:39   I really I really hope this feature exists because then we'll discover which of those two things it

02:02:46   does and it will just it's it's a great experiment for all the people who reflectively force quit

02:02:50   applications which again people shouldn't be doing um to see like how apple satisfies that user need

02:02:57   because we discussed in the past reflexively force quitting every application is bad for you and bad

02:03:02   for your phone but the desire to not have a bunch of images cluttering up that screen is perfectly

02:03:08   reasonable desire those are two separate things but people just don't want the pictures there

02:03:14   so the only way they have to get rid of the pictures is by swiping them upwards which by the

02:03:17   way does something else force quitting them and then other people want to force quit anyway as we

02:03:21   said in the past force quitting apps is fine reflexively force quitting every single application

02:03:25   every time you're done using your phone not fine those are two different things so if they add this

02:03:29   feature I can't wait to see what it actually does I have a hard time imagining that it will literally

02:03:35   force quit every application I think it will just get rid of the pictures and I think people that's

02:03:41   all people really want but then then what about when an application is hosed and you do have to

02:03:45   force quit it that will cause you you probably still have to swipe up and so there will be some

02:03:49   people who say I don't use the button because the button doesn't actually force quit the applications

02:03:54   I still swipe everything upwards see I don't I think they would actually make it like you know

02:04:01   terminate all the applications but you know over time when they when they first introduced that

02:04:06   you know that mechanism if your app was quote force quit and not running in the in the switcher

02:04:12   or not available in the switcher whatever it was you couldn't do things like background refresh

02:04:17   you couldn't do things like background downloads like there there was like you lost a lot of those

02:04:21   abilities and then over time they have actually given you more abilities to have your app woken

02:04:27   up for background activity when it is forced quit in in subsequent updates so I wonder if

02:04:32   you're in the middle of doing a background activity when you get a force quit and that's not gonna be

02:04:35   good for you no it's not gonna be good but maybe it maybe it would like you know call your termination

02:04:39   block and give you a few seconds to close it up rather than instantly closing you up you know who

02:04:43   knows but you know if they would do something like that it wouldn't surprise me if there were also

02:04:49   some tweaks to what your app was it was able to do when it has been forced quit so to make it less of

02:04:56   an extreme negative for the experience of using each app but it but I think it still would actually

02:05:02   terminate the current executable of the apps we'll see we'll see but I think they're if they're if

02:05:07   this rumors are true I think that they need to go a step further which is like for the visual

02:05:12   clutter thing requiring someone to go back to that screen and hit the one button to get rid of all the

02:05:16   little pictures why not just let people like say hey every time I lock my phone get rid of all the

02:05:21   little pictures or put a maximum number on the little pictures right and I keep saying little

02:05:24   pictures because for people who don't know very often those little pictures of screens of apps

02:05:29   are apps that have not been running for days but like iOS keeps little pictures of what the screen

02:05:34   looked like the last time it was running and so as you scroll to the left and more and more of those

02:05:38   things like those things haven't been running in ages they're not currently running they haven't

02:05:41   been running it's just a little picture so I think people just don't want the visual clutter on that

02:05:45   screen and requiring them to manually clean up that screen every time a single button is better

02:05:49   than having them swipe up but it's not as good as saying hey just let me know should I have a

02:05:53   maximum of three items there every time the screen locks you want me to remove all those little

02:05:57   pictures I think that would make people happier because at this point there's so many people who

02:06:01   have trained themselves to clean up all the little pictures they just need to do it iOS can help them

02:06:06   out there iOS can can get rid of those pictures for them automatically but anyway we'll see we'll

02:06:11   see if this room if the rumor is not true then whatever this has all just been a pointless

02:06:14   discussion but the rumor is true I find this the most exciting and fascinating feature of iOS 17

02:06:18   that I've heard rumored oh my god you have pretty low standards right I mean it's a headset year

02:06:24   like whatever no but I mean but I'm actually hoping for other platform improvements as well

02:06:29   and I don't need to be blown away with tons of user features I just want to see you know I mean

02:06:34   first of all the the idea that was rumored about watchOS being potentially you know pretty well

02:06:39   revamped in a lot of ways that's very exciting to me because as I mentioned earlier most years it

02:06:44   seems like watchOS is barely touched and I know that isn't always the case but in terms of what

02:06:50   features actually show up to users and developers it's pretty minimal every year with watchOS so

02:06:56   the idea of there being a substantial update or change to how watchOS works or looks or behaves

02:07:02   is pretty promising to me because as much as I I've you know really gotten into the Apple Watch in

02:07:07   the last couple years in terms of you know I've been wearing it most days and not wearing my fancy

02:07:11   watches as much I think it still could be so much better than it is and and there's a lot of low

02:07:17   hanging fruit that they just haven't picked so I hope that this is a big harvest to stretch that

02:07:23   metaphor way too far but in general what I want as a developer is just give me the next give me

02:07:30   the next iterative iterative set of improvements for SwiftUI and Swift itself. Swift itself is

02:07:35   actually doing pretty well that happens kind of separately from the WWDC cadence in a lot of ways

02:07:40   but give me just you know next version of SwiftUI and next version of Xcode like there's been a lot

02:07:46   of weird little Xcode bugs this year I have weird source kit crashing in the background sometimes

02:07:52   sometimes I have to reboot my entire Mac to get things to work correctly or to update in the

02:07:55   simulator which is really scary whenever I work on a package like Blackbird or like my Overcast

02:08:02   new sync engine when you have a package open in Xcode and you try to then open a project that uses

02:08:07   that package weird stuff happens and it basically doesn't work there's all sorts of weird little

02:08:12   behaviors like that errors that that stick around forever on Xcode even after you've cleared the

02:08:16   error oh gosh yes there are so many so annoying yeah so many little bugs like that and little

02:08:24   limitations like that that make day-to-day stuff in the current version of Xcode less reliable

02:08:30   that or weirdly limited in some way that's the kind of stuff I want to see fixed you know just

02:08:35   improvements of developers day-to-day lives fix the tool bugs make you know make things perform a

02:08:41   little bit a little bit better if you can but really like fix the bugs first and you know

02:08:45   iterative updates to SwiftUI that that's that's what I'm really hoping for yeah I would love to

02:08:50   see some SwiftUI improvements I've I've actually been pretty happy with SwiftUI for the most part

02:08:54   there's definitely some things that are very frustrating and very janky and there's a lot

02:09:00   of places where I wish I had more control than I'm allowed you know especially like with regard to

02:09:05   the search field which is what I'm running into a lot with call sheet you know I need to I ended

02:09:11   up needing to go thanks to the help of Gi Rambo I needed to end up going down to UIKit like plucking

02:09:17   the the appropriate UIKit control out of the view hierarchy which is gross and I hate it but I

02:09:24   needed to do that in order to accomplish what I needed to do but for the most part I haven't had

02:09:28   to do too much of that with SwiftUI the new navigation stuff you had brought up like an

02:09:32   hour and a half ago it took me kicking and screaming or I was kicking and screaming going

02:09:37   to embrace it but once I did it actually makes everything way way easier and way way nicer it

02:09:45   seemed completely overblown see also all of SwiftUI it's always that way that's fair yeah yeah that's

02:09:50   true no you're exactly right but you know once I embraced like creating you know a enum that

02:09:57   represents all of my different screens and then you know having basically an array of that enum

02:10:02   that or enumeration or whatever that that manages what is the current navigation stack once I

02:10:07   finally committed to that it made so many things so much easier and I'm really digging on that

02:10:12   there's definitely time so it's annoying but for the most part it works really well but yeah there's

02:10:16   a lot of there's a lot of stuff both low hanging and not that I would love to see get better you

02:10:22   know Marco and I have both been whining you know we've been commiserating with each other slash

02:10:26   whining publicly about how bad the error messaging still is in SwiftUI and that is a hard problem to

02:10:31   solve it really really is because you know we're bending Swift you know in half breaking it and

02:10:38   trying not to you know and trying to put it back together again like I totally genuinely sympathize

02:10:44   with what the the Swift and SwiftUI developers are working against and up against but as someone who

02:10:51   is using their work product you know getting these completely unintelligible error messages

02:10:56   often being highlighted on you know 50 lines away from where the actual error is all too often and I

02:11:02   forget the way it's phrased but all too often you know SwiftUI will just throw its hands up and be

02:11:07   like sorry dude I got nothing yeah it'll be like this is wrong but I can't tell you why yeah help

02:11:12   me help me please give me give me give me 50 lines to narrow down on no no I don't think I'd like to

02:11:18   do that just just figure it out just keep hitting command z until you get something that builds and

02:11:22   then slowly what is the command shift z back and so something breaks you know stuff like that and

02:11:28   Marco the thing you mentioned which I've been running into more and more often the Xcode errors

02:11:31   that you fixed yet are still shown in the sidebar for the basically until you reboot your computer

02:11:36   or at least restart Xcode it's driving me batty but hopefully that'll get better but all in all

02:11:42   like I have been really enjoying doing the SwiftUI work in CallSheet and god knows like whether or

02:11:49   not you think CallSheet is ugly I can assure you that it would be way uglier it would just be

02:11:57   straight up ugly in UIKit and a lot of that is because I'm not as good a UIKit programmer but

02:12:02   I think SwiftUI makes making pretty interfaces much easier for someone like me who is not a

02:12:08   designer by any stretch of the imagination and yeah I echo what you're saying Marco to have

02:12:13   improvements in Xcode improvements in SwiftUI improvements in just what we're able to do as

02:12:18   developers in any general way like all of that is welcome and I'm really excited to see to see what

02:12:24   lands and I hope that even though I know you know the the headset will overshadow all these things

02:12:29   a lot of times some of the boring stuff is some of the best stuff like store kit 2 is not perfect

02:12:34   but it's really nice and a hell of a lot nicer than store kit 1 was you know silly stuff like

02:12:39   that really matters and I hope we see some of it yeah that's like what I'm ultimately looking

02:12:43   forward to is all those little tiny iterative changes like for instance there are still so

02:12:50   much in the platform APIs where we can't use async code yet and it would be like any every time you

02:12:58   know every new os version since async has been released they've added a few more places you can

02:13:03   use async code I assume we will hopefully be in for the same thing this year that we'll have more

02:13:08   places we can use async code more places that are that are made more Swift native more places that

02:13:13   are more easily compatible with SwiftUI like all these these major platform and language shifts

02:13:19   and framework shifts they've made over the last decade more and more places in the code where we

02:13:24   can use them where we can write the most modern kind of code possible Swift async SwiftUI all

02:13:30   those like all the hooks that we get into various system callbacks and frameworks and different UI

02:13:36   components like the more they can modernize the better that makes developers lives easier I have

02:13:41   faith that they will do that again this year because they do that every single year and it's

02:13:44   wonderful and that's that's the kind of stuff that actually makes a bigger difference honestly

02:13:49   to most developers lives than a new platform like that's that's why you know it's not going to get

02:13:56   mentioned it's not going to get news coverage it's not going to make anybody super excited

02:13:59   except when we're going through like the API diffs or we see a session in the middle of the week like

02:14:04   oh my god that one little tiny change of that one API call that makes my life easier that's wonderful

02:14:08   like that's that's what I most look forward to in wbdc is the big stuff yeah you know that that can

02:14:15   be game changing for some people not usually for everyone it's the small stuff that makes everyone's

02:14:21   lives a little bit better once you can actually use that you know that that os version that's the

02:14:24   kind of stuff that I really look forward to because that helps everyone even if you have an app type

02:14:30   that doesn't benefit from any of the other big changes or a new platform that's announced

02:14:34   you can still benefit from like this one improvement to this file or network API or whatever it is yep

02:14:41   couldn't agree more thanks to our sponsors this week green chef trade coffee and judo and thanks

02:14:48   to our members who support us directly you can join us atp.fm slash join and we will talk to you next week

02:14:58   now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

02:15:04   oh it was accidental

02:15:07   john didn't do any research margo and casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

02:15:15   it was accidental and you can find the show notes at atp.fm

02:15:24   and if you're into twitter you can follow them at c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s so that's casey list m-a-r-c-o-a-r-m

02:15:37   anti-marco armen s-i-r-a-c-u-s-a syracuse it's accidental

02:15:48   they didn't mean to accidental tech podcast so long casey i have to ask in the document

02:16:01   under after show it says casey has destroyed aaron's car and computer in the span of one weekend

02:16:08   now i can guess you know maybe there was a water spill on the computer but how did you spill enough

02:16:14   water to destroy her car yeah no i that is a little bit of uh not hyperbole but a little

02:16:20   well i guess it is hyperbole it's a little bit exaggerated no yeah i know right it's funny

02:16:24   it's shocking i tell you um aaron was slated to go on her first girls trip uh since just before

02:16:32   the pandemic like weeks before the pandemic uh she was slated to go to a place a couple hours away

02:16:38   from home um and then she was gonna spend the weekend there and have some time not being mom

02:16:43   which she freaking is deserved she is owed that so badly we had a whole bunch of stuff that was

02:16:51   going on the morning friday morning that she was intending to leave so i am in the passenger seat

02:16:57   of her vulvo i forget why we took her car but we did uh it was a little bit brisk that morning and

02:17:02   so i had a couple of atp sweatshirts actually uh on on my lap and then i had my ipad on top of that

02:17:08   which i brought with me as i often do just in case i need it's like do something on the computer

02:17:14   well i i was putting the stack of two sweatshirts and ipad onto her dashboard just very briefly as

02:17:22   we were running in to drop mikayla off i wouldn't leave the ipad there generally speaking but it

02:17:25   means it's at a church it's not the sort of place where i'm really worried about you know something

02:17:30   walking so i attempted to put the stack of sweatshirts and ipad onto her dash now i've

02:17:36   just put something in slack you're going to want to zoom a little bit oh no that's aaron's

02:17:43   windshield you don't know your own strength you may be a hulk there is a giant star shaped crack

02:17:49   in the right in the middle of this windshield not like a little chip you get when like a rock hits

02:17:53   your windshield not like that at all no it's it radiates out the whole length of the windshield

02:17:59   it's a big crack and there's like a fairly large uh impact crater if you will you know what you did

02:18:06   you know those tools they give you like if your car goes underwater and you can't and you can't

02:18:09   roll down the window and you have to get out and it's just a tiny pointy piece of metal that you

02:18:13   whack into your window to free yourself you did that with your ipad didn't with the corner of my

02:18:17   ipad that is exactly right so this is good for people to know if your car goes into a lake and

02:18:22   you can't roll down the window and you can't open the door because like the pressures you know the

02:18:27   water pressure is keeping it closed just take the corner of that ipad or i guess the iphone if you

02:18:31   take it out of your case and just whack that against the window and then swim to freedom

02:18:35   so aaron is climbing out of the car she's getting mikaela out of her car seat i go to put this on

02:18:39   the windshield hand to god gentlemen i hit the windshield that is not up for grabs obviously

02:18:44   but it was i won't even try to do foley work but it was the littlest like ting the littlest glance

02:18:50   off the windshield it's not like i'm slamming the ipad into the windshield as much as we're joking

02:18:53   about me being the hulk i wasn't slamming the ipad it did hit the windshield but it was the tiniest

02:18:59   little glance off the inside did the ipad leave your hand no the ipad was in my hand and it was in

02:19:05   the magic keyboard that i can never remember the name of the smart keyboard magic keyboard whatever

02:19:08   it was it upright like no it was horizontal i think i just happened to glance off the corner

02:19:13   of the ipad just right so so aaron's getting out of the car i put the i attempt to put the ipad and

02:19:22   sweatshirt stack in her dash and i hear tink and i see that did grow a little bit since i picked

02:19:27   before that picture was taken but it was mostly like that immediately and so i do tink oh and she

02:19:34   looks at me and she's like what and then she goes oh no this amazes me because if you've driven a

02:19:41   car like you know you can like rocks can fly up from the wheels of a truck in front of you at 60

02:19:45   miles an hour on the highway and they'll just leave a little chip but this is just you just

02:19:49   destroyed it i don't know how and i agree with you it's exactly accurate is the ipad okay yeah

02:19:55   the ipad's fine she's she's supposed to drive her own friggin car two hours to go visit some

02:20:02   visit we have a weekend with her friends and some jackass over here decides to accidentally shatter

02:20:08   her windshield aaron to her credit was extremely good about it like she said to me how did that

02:20:12   happen i heard the little ting how could that have possibly been the result of that little ting she

02:20:18   was very very good about it it much much better than i would have been what happened is somebody

02:20:22   got casey talking about the bug reporting process at apple right it's i was just thinking about it

02:20:28   and that's what happened uh that or documentation it was one of the two but um i absolutely destroyed

02:20:33   her car and uh i feel terrible about it to this day i know i'm joking about it but i really feel

02:20:38   terrible about it and again i can't say enough good things about my wife who has been an angel

02:20:42   about this whole thing i would have been such a turd if this had happened to me and this is why

02:20:46   she is for a zillion reasons the better person of the two of us uh but she she has been extremely

02:20:51   good about it and you know hasn't she's made fun of me for it but oh but she hasn't been a turd

02:20:56   about it she has full right to make fun of you forever about this oh absolutely exactly exactly

02:21:01   right now it also says in this in this bullet point that you destroyed her computer in the same

02:21:05   weekend so that's that's that is definitely hyperbole so uh aaron uses her actual computer

02:21:11   which if you recall is my old macbook adorable my old macbook one you know the one port one usbc only

02:21:18   and a headphone jack macbook which i still love i seem to recall that she previously had a macbook

02:21:22   air that had some issues oh yeah that had been in the drink like six times that were also i believe

02:21:28   your fault that though those unquestionably were my fault there is nothing over grabs there

02:21:33   uh but we're sitting on the couch and she during the pandemic aaron had started doing um like the

02:21:38   online grocery stuff through kroger where you know she goes on kroger's website she picks out what

02:21:43   she wants they they shop on her behalf if you will and then she you know drives up and they

02:21:47   plunk all the groceries in the car so she's sitting there doing the kroger order on her

02:21:51   macbook adorable that was already in need of like a reload i don't even remember what version of

02:21:56   of mac os is on it but it's years old at this point i've been meaning to you know pull a windows

02:22:01   if you will and refresh everything and start anew but i hadn't gotten to it and she was using it i'm

02:22:06   sitting on the couch next to her watching her do this i don't remember why i was watching her i

02:22:09   think she was asking about which which version of something i i thought we we should get but all of

02:22:14   a sudden it freezes and she's like oh that's weird yeah that's that's a little weird but i mean it is

02:22:19   a macbook adorable it was a piece of garbage when it was new i love that piece of garbage but it was

02:22:23   a piece of garbage and then it turns off okay not good so then she starts it up again and i see the

02:22:30   apple logo and then i see a padlock huh it's not getting better not getting better i think what it

02:22:39   is is file vault asking for a password i think but i tried every permutation of any of the passwords

02:22:48   that she and i would ever normally use and none of them worked is that like a firmware password do

02:22:54   they still support those i have no idea i i your guess is as good as mine um so i see this padlock

02:23:01   i'm like okay that's that's something's not right so then i think well i can't i i haven't looked

02:23:06   back at this since that evening but i was like all right well let me see if i can do like an internet

02:23:09   recovery and just like do some diagnostics or something like that and it's able to start up it's

02:23:14   able to go into the internet recovery thing i'm able to download all that it needs for internet

02:23:18   recovery and then it fails every time and i forget the error message off the top my head but it fails

02:23:23   every time i think that either the ssd has died or the logic board has had some sort of catastrophic

02:23:30   failure and the thing is toast so i actually honestly i didn't destroy it that was just it

02:23:35   made for a fun message for you two to see in the show notes but um i don't think i destroyed it and

02:23:40   and so that thing i have not been able to resuscitate it if you have an idea for me i am

02:23:44   all years i have thought oh i do oh yeah yeah get her a macbook air and well it's funny you say that

02:23:51   because one of the tabs i have open on my computer and i am not a john syracusas i only have a handful

02:23:55   open right now but one of them is a certified refurbished 13-inch macbook air apple m2 chip

02:23:59   with eight core cpu and 10 core gpu midnight for 16 or 1530 which is i think what i'm gonna do

02:24:06   this particular one has 16 gigs ram and a half terabyte ssd that's great she probably needs

02:24:11   neither of those things but what i haven't mentioned to either of you particularly marco

02:24:16   uh earmuffs marco is that the only functional computer that i have in the house i guess other

02:24:21   than the mac mini which i hadn't thought about until just now but the only computer i have in

02:24:24   the house right now is this one is mine is my macbook pro and if you're prone to occasionally

02:24:30   putting computers underwater like i am seems a little uh inadvisable for me not to have some

02:24:36   other computer capable of podcasting somewhere in the house and so i told her you know whether or

02:24:42   not she really needs a computer because again the only thing she ever really did on this computer

02:24:46   was croger and she could do that on like the ipad or my computer or what have you but it seems

02:24:51   prudent for us to have a backup computer for me yes just in case i have a computer issue you are

02:24:56   a computer professional it is okay to have some kind of backup in the house exactly so my current

02:25:02   plan um and i haven't i haven't acted on this yet and i do want to try a little bit longer to see if

02:25:08   i can resuscitate this thing um but my current plan is to probably just buy her macbook air

02:25:14   which is long overdue anyway and just call it call it a day if you're looking at refurbs look

02:25:18   at m1 and macbook air instead of m2 because she doesn't need the m2 and you can ask her which form

02:25:24   like because you have that wedge-shaped computer before she might want one and the m1 is going to

02:25:27   be cheaper and it's it's just as good for what she's going to be doing with it that is true but

02:25:32   she's that much cheaper though it i i haven't looked i will look i i think marco's right i

02:25:37   don't think it'll be that much cheaper she definitely deserves something better even though

02:25:41   like i don't think she needs it i think you're right john but more than anything else i want this

02:25:45   thing to last a long time and so i agree with you that it's probably not that different between the

02:25:50   m1 and the m2 but my thought process is you know i'll get refurb because she doesn't need or want

02:25:57   something brand new but nevertheless i would like to get as good as can i can reasonably get right

02:26:02   now without breaking the bank i kind of like the m1 but i've said this before i think the m1 is

02:26:06   uh macbook air is a better machine than the m2 just like in terms of balance obviously the m2 is

02:26:12   a little bit faster and if you like the flat form factor it's fine but the m1 the m2 is like a

02:26:17   little bit heatier and throttle throttle-ier than the m1 was they both don't have fans and it's fine

02:26:23   and it's not a big deal but i just i feel like the m1 hit the sweet spot a little bit better than the

02:26:27   m2 does so when i think about buying like a cheap laptop or something i still think m1 macbook air

02:26:31   even though the m2 is and i got my son an m2 because you know same thing future proofing or

02:26:35   whatever but also that sweet magsafe port that means that you have one more port oh that's true

02:26:41   too because you because now you have three three ports like when you're when you have power

02:26:45   connected you now have two usb-c thunderbolt ports that are free i mean she was using the the macbook

02:26:51   one so i don't think ports are a big need for her but still it's still like you know for for in case

02:26:57   this computer gets repurposed in your household down the road exactly it is a little bit more

02:27:00   versatile to have the m2 one exactly right um somebody who is this uh gardner vh posted in the

02:27:06   chat a link which we will put in the show notes here's all the things that your um that your

02:27:11   computer can show on startup and it is i don't think i can link to the heading but the heading

02:27:15   is lock icon and if your mac is using a firmware password the lock icon appears when you try to

02:27:20   start up from another disk or volume such as an external drive or mac os recovery enter the

02:27:24   firmware password to continue if i put in a firmware password i have zero recollection of

02:27:28   it again i tried any permutation i can remember um to to get through this of both my passwords and

02:27:34   errands and uh none of them worked and also note that i just read to you when you try to start up

02:27:40   from another disk or volume i wasn't trying to do that i was trying to start up from the internal

02:27:45   ssd so something has gone wonky and it's probably not good you can't get to the hardware diagnostics

02:27:51   uh you know i haven't tried i can the computer's behind me i can try it right now if you really

02:27:55   want me to i forget exactly how you start that on an intel mac but i'm it's uh you can hold down

02:28:01   command d during boot or something you can look it up it's in one of those documents

02:28:05   um but yeah i think it's just toast i think either the ssd or the logic board is toast yeah it does

02:28:11   say in this document that like you can bring it into an apple store with proof of purchase and

02:28:14   they can reset it for you but that's only that's only if the firmware password that you never even

02:28:19   set is somehow a problem right is rather than being the symptom of a different deeper problem so

02:28:24   yeah i'm guessing this is probably the end of this computer and good riddance and you know

02:28:28   get her an m2 map okay you just destroyed her car it's the least you could do

02:28:32   right exactly right and i mean again she doesn't really care and i mean that in a good way not that

02:28:37   she's like it's just it's not something that's important to her yeah but everyone likes nice

02:28:41   things especially after you destroy their car exactly uh and by the way um globe with warning

02:28:46   symbol if memory serves this is what it looked like this is on the same page right above lock

02:28:50   icon actually a globe with warning symbol is what i saw when i tried to do internet recovery and it

02:28:54   failed on two or three consecutive oh well no i shouldn't say consecutive i went back and forth

02:28:58   but two or three tries on that same night i didn't like bother plugging it into ethernet which is a

02:29:03   nightmare because it only has one port but um i could have done that uh i haven't bothered but i

02:29:09   really truly think that this thing is just fried and i thought about bringing it to apple just for

02:29:13   the purposes of diagnosis but even if they're like oh yeah this is the problem like what am i really

02:29:17   going to do what what actionable information is that really you can give it to them and they'll

02:29:21   recycle it for you i guess that's about all it's good for exactly it's better than throwing it out

02:29:26   or you could you know look there's also reduce and reuse it's too late for reduce you can reuse it

02:29:31   maybe a doorstop maybe you you can put it you can put it in the door pocket in one of your cars for

02:29:36   emergency egress when you land in the water

02:29:44   (beep)