00:00:00 ◼ ► Have you have you loaded your phone with the appropriate number of fish concerts to last?
00:00:04 ◼ ► Whatever you might be doing over the next few weeks. Oh, yeah, they're always there. Fish season was a little bit light so far.
00:00:10 ◼ ► Most of their concert, most of their summer touring hasn't happened yet, but it's been it's been very strong goose month.
00:00:16 ◼ ► I'm still in goose season now and then fish season will resume once their tour resumes. And I believe a few weeks.
00:00:22 ◼ ► It's duck season. No, it's wabbit season. No, it's duck season. No, it's wabbit season.
00:00:26 ◼ ► So disappointing that goose doesn't spell the name wrong like fish does. That's true. How would they spell it like G O O C E?
00:00:34 ◼ ► They just fit better with fish don't you think? Yeah, I guess. I think I've made the speech to you previously Marco,
00:00:44 ◼ ► I am overjoyed that it is currently the summer concert tour season for Dave Matthews Band
00:00:59 ◼ ► So I can make backups for my own personal use of the recordings as broadcast over Sirius XM.
00:01:12 ◼ ► I get one each week, just the Friday night one, and I have to make sure I record it as it's happening.
00:01:20 ◼ ► I get that one concert each week that sounds really good and then if I cared enough to grab any of the others
00:01:31 ◼ ► Meanwhile, while I'm doing this like an animal you pay what is, I think, the number doesn't matter,
00:01:46 ◼ ► I mean, you don't have to buy them all. I mean, I do, but it's ten bucks per three-hour show.
00:01:57 ◼ ► I don't know the difference, but yeah, it sounds pretty darn good all things told. Sounds great.
00:02:01 ◼ ► Meanwhile, I get one pretty decent recording a week for the summertime and I'm like overjoyed by this.
00:02:06 ◼ ► The Fish Live concerts that I buy, and by the way, Goose have been following the same playbook.
00:02:13 ◼ ► You know, it's pay what you want, ten buck minimum, and they're also just as good sounding.
00:02:23 ◼ ► like a lot of times bands will release their own live albums of one really great show they did or do compilations.
00:02:36 ◼ ► So now I have two great bands in my life that do this and you still have kind of half of one at best.
00:02:41 ◼ ► I have one seventh of one. I mean, not that they record every night of the week, but you know what I'm saying.
00:02:52 ◼ ► But Dave Matthews Band was one of the first mainstream bands that allowed taping and so on and so forth.
00:03:01 ◼ ► But then Fish just was like, "Oh, really? Hold my beer. I'll show you how it's actually supposed to work."
00:03:11 ◼ ► and I very well could have this wrong, that Red Light Management, Korn Capshaw and his group,
00:03:19 ◼ ► They might. Who knows? I think what we have now learned here is that you need to listen to better music.
00:03:26 ◼ ► All right, so let's do some follow-up. We have some—I'm not going to take the bait because we don't have time.
00:03:31 ◼ ► We have some anonymous feedback. We actually have a whole section of anonymous feedback.
00:03:41 ◼ ► Deliveries to an Apple building address should work, but the shippers will actually deliver items
00:03:49 ◼ ► Executives have multiple levels of mail processing. Each executive may have different instructions
00:03:53 ◼ ► for what to do with deliveries before they even leave the warehouse, including opening the items
00:03:57 ◼ ► and doing security screening with chemical testing tools. Then they go to the executive assistant
00:04:01 ◼ ► for the recipient. Some executives have multiple levels of assistance. In summary, I'd expect mail
00:04:05 ◼ ► to John Turnus addressed to Apple Park to get to his assistant at least, which is pretty exciting.
00:04:10 ◼ ► I mean, who knows? But I'm not going to count my chickens, but that's pretty cool. And then a certain
00:04:14 ◼ ► somebody put a very cool and very interesting image in the show notes. I don't know that it'll
00:04:20 ◼ ► necessarily make it as chapter art or anything like that, but would you mind describing this for me, please, John?
00:04:24 ◼ ► This is just the tracking on the shirt that's going to John Turnus. It was delivered or whatever it says.
00:04:29 ◼ ► Delivered to agent for final delivery. Anyway, whatever that means. It's the U.S. Postal Service.
00:04:34 ◼ ► On May 27th. Today is the 29th. So I feel like it's this shirt has an entire work week to somehow
00:04:41 ◼ ► make it out of the shipping and receiving warehouse and to the appropriate executive assistant. And then
00:04:47 ◼ ► if that executive assistant decides to pass it on, we'll see. So there's a dim hope that John Turnus
00:04:52 ◼ ► may see the shirt before WWDC, but it feels kind of slim, especially if there's multiple levels of,
00:05:03 ◼ ► The real tragedy here is that if there's going to be a Mac Pro announcement of some kind, and if
00:05:09 ◼ ► presumably John Turnus would be involved in such an announcement, they probably would have already
00:05:14 ◼ ► filmed it before the shirt arrived to him. Oh, that's true. I really don't think he'd be wearing it in the video.
00:05:20 ◼ ► I mean, yeah, it's unlikely. I'll give you that. But at least it could have been possible had we done it,
00:05:25 ◼ ► you know, maybe a month ago. Can you add, I cannot fathom, I agree, it would never happen in a trillion years.
00:05:32 ◼ ► It's a t-shirt. He doesn't. Oh, I know. But still, can you imagine how amazing that would be?
00:05:37 ◼ ► That would be, you know, when the connected, when the connected boys fell off their chairs,
00:05:42 ◼ ► justifiably, when Tim Cook was standing in front of their show art at WWDC a few years ago. Can you
00:05:48 ◼ ► imagine him wearing our shirt? Like again, it would never happen, but how amazing would that be?
00:05:55 ◼ ► That would be so freaking cool. I mean, we had ATP show art in the background of showing the podcast
00:06:00 ◼ ► up at WWDC session. We had Marco adding his own content to the proceedings by ringing the
00:06:07 ◼ ► bell on the file system thing. Right. So I feel like we've had our share of influencing the Apple
00:06:13 ◼ ► keynotes. Yeah, I guess fair enough. Fair enough. All right. And we have from an additional anonymous
00:06:19 ◼ ► Apple employee, they wanted us to know that they have already spotted someone wearing a Mac Pro
00:06:23 ◼ ► Believe shirt at Cafe Max, which is the cafeteria at Apple Park. And additionally, we got feedback,
00:06:29 ◼ ► I don't know if it was we or me got feedback with somebody documenting the fact that they were
00:06:32 ◼ ► wearing the Believe shirt in front of the Infinite Loop visitor center. I think it was maybe it was
00:06:37 ◼ ► an Infinite Loop, one of the visitor centers signs. So they were definitely on the Apple
00:06:41 ◼ ► campus with the Believe shirt, which made me very happy. Continuing with anonymous stuff,
00:06:46 ◼ ► but no longer about the shirts, we have some feedback about feedback. An anonymous Apple
00:06:50 ◼ ► engineer on Apple with regard to Apple's bug system writes, "I wish to express how deeply I
00:06:55 ◼ ► feel similarly frustrated with the bug resolution process. On my end, if I get a bug from a developer
00:07:00 ◼ ► and want to ask them a question, I can say, 'Please ask the developer technical question
00:07:04 ◼ ► XYZ,' and then assign the radar to a black hole. I have no idea if my technical information will
00:07:08 ◼ ► be conveyed the way I wrote it. I can't see what the developer says other than the initial report.
00:07:12 ◼ ► Everything else is through an intermediary. Often the response from the developer seems
00:07:15 ◼ ► totally unrelated to what I'd hoped to correspond about." Sounds like prison. Right? Isn't this how
00:07:20 ◼ ► you write to prisoners? Seriously, it's so, so true. Well, we can at least share your frustration,
00:07:26 ◼ ► anonymous person, that it seems like a black hole to us as well. Right? Isn't that great? That's
00:07:31 ◼ ► what we said. We said this last episode, but just to re-emphasize it, that the system doesn't work
00:07:35 ◼ ► for us outside of Apple and doesn't work for the people inside Apple either. Like, the thing that's
00:07:39 ◼ ► frustrating is they can't see anything we write except for the initial report, and they're not
00:07:43 ◼ ► allowed to converse directly. So they have to throw their information over the wall to an
00:07:46 ◼ ► intermediary and cross their fingers and hope that it's like a game of telephone that all
00:07:50 ◼ ► went through. And then they get a response back. It's like, "What? What does this response mean?"
00:07:54 ◼ ► But they didn't see what we sent. It's just, this is not a way to run a bug tracking system.
00:07:59 ◼ ► There are better ways. And I know secrecy is like, "Well, we can't have these people talking to each
00:08:07 ◼ ► inevitably there'll be leaks and blah, blah, blah." And it's like, just figure it out. There
00:08:11 ◼ ► are ways to do this to allow people to communicate effectively without everybody leaking secrets,
00:08:16 ◼ ► I believe. Because in the end, the people in the middle could also accidentally leak things
00:08:20 ◼ ► because they see what the person on the inside said. So putting one more layer there doesn't
00:08:24 ◼ ► necessarily make it so that leaks are impossible anymore. It's just that they would become a
00:08:28 ◼ ► more vague sort of game of telephone leaks that are mangled a little bit in transition.
00:08:32 ◼ ► - Yep. Matthew Fencelough writes, "With regard to bug reporting, I refuse to read this feedback
00:08:45 ◼ ► "As an outsider, it seems crazy to me that Apple would spend any time responding to non-security
00:08:49 ◼ ► related bug reports from developers who don't have on the order of at least hundreds or thousands of
00:08:53 ◼ ► sales in the app store. While I'm sure that John produces extremely high quality reports, it would
00:08:57 ◼ ► seem completely illogical for Apple to devote resources to reports from a developer that is
00:09:01 ◼ ► making incredibly niche apps. It seems like any serious bug is going to either be picked up by
00:09:05 ◼ ► one of the large developers or it will be so ubiquitous that they'll receive tons and tons
00:09:09 ◼ ► of reports. So it seems like it would be really wasteful to be paying much attention to the long
00:09:12 ◼ ► tail of individual small developer reports." So this might be what it seems like, but there's
00:09:18 ◼ ► a few unstated assumptions that are not true. One of them is that large developers are going to find
00:09:24 ◼ ► the bugs that they're most likely to find because they sell lots of copies or something. I'm not
00:09:28 ◼ ► even sure what the logic is, but I have to tell you that the first people to use a new API are not
00:09:33 ◼ ► going to be the biggest developers. Microsoft Office is not leaping on that API that they
00:09:38 ◼ ► introduced to WWC on day one. It's individual developers who have the sort of agility and
00:09:44 ◼ ► flexibility to try out the new API. Or someone writing a brand new app from scratch on that day,
00:09:49 ◼ ► they can jump on the new API. So big developers are not going to find the bugs first. And the
00:09:53 ◼ ► second thing is, just because a small developer who sells no apps finds a bug, doesn't mean that
00:09:59 ◼ ► bug doesn't also exist in Microsoft Office, in Adobe Photoshop, in the big applications.
00:10:04 ◼ ► Right? It's not like there's a separate set of APIs written for apps that don't sell a lot.
00:10:08 ◼ ► I use the same APIs as the apps that sell millions and millions of copies. Right? So it doesn't
00:10:14 ◼ ► really matter where the bug comes from. It's not like they're like, "Oh, we wouldn't bother servicing
00:10:18 ◼ ► their needs because I'm a dinky developer and I don't matter." Yeah, I am a dinky developer and
00:10:21 ◼ ► I don't matter to Apple. But the bug I found has really no relation to how many apps I sell
00:10:28 ◼ ► or anything like that. It's like this bug could be in Apple's app. This bug could be in the...
00:10:37 ◼ ► This bug could potentially affect everybody. And as for a secure related versus non-secure related,
00:10:50 ◼ ► bug reports from dinky developers, the correct take on that is like, it's a waste of Apple's time to
00:10:56 ◼ ► dedicate an employee... Like we talked about the person who's from a big gaming company,
00:11:01 ◼ ► they have dedicated Apple engineers and a Slack with them. That would be a waste of Apple's time.
00:11:04 ◼ ► They're not going to give individual developers like me or even Marco with a smallish number of
00:11:10 ◼ ► sales compared to the gigantic companies. They're not going to dedicate employees to that. They're
00:11:14 ◼ ► not going to give them the white glove treatment. They're not going to handhold them or whatever.
00:11:17 ◼ ► But for bug reports, the source of the bug, like how many apps are sold by the person who
00:11:27 ◼ ► well this bug is stopping Microsoft Office from running correctly on our new OS. So they'll pay
00:11:31 ◼ ► attention to that." But that's not the nature of most bugs. Most bugs are not like a showstopper
00:11:35 ◼ ► where like we literally can't ship our product until you fix this bug. Most bugs are just like,
00:11:40 ◼ ► "Oh, this doesn't work right. And until it does, we're going to have to do this weird work around,
00:11:48 ◼ ► I get what Matthew was saying, but I think there are some other factors that he was not considering
00:11:52 ◼ ► that make bug reports, even from a dinky developer, almost as valuable as bug reports from big
00:11:59 ◼ ► developers. And the only difference being if there's a showstopper that is stopping a big
00:12:08 ◼ ► Marco noted, "People learn that trick of canceling your App Store subscription immediately,
00:12:13 ◼ ► and then you still get your free month. Something worth noting is that for Apple's own apps,
00:12:17 ◼ ► when you cancel any of their free trials, you do not get to continue to use the app or service for
00:12:20 ◼ ► the duration of the trial. It ends and you're locked out of those privileges. I've not tried
00:12:23 ◼ ► this on Final Cut for iPad, but it is the case for every Apple One service. I'm not a developer,
00:12:28 ◼ ► but I don't believe the end trial immediately option is available for developers. It's absolute
00:12:32 ◼ ► cuckoo bananas." Yeah, I think this is correct on all counts. We don't have any control over this,
00:12:46 ◼ ► All those different Apple service trials that they spam the crap out of you from settings with,
00:13:03 ◼ ► Yep. Quick aside with regard to Claude Zines, I've probably brought this up at some point in
00:13:08 ◼ ► the past, but I am pretty sure this is the same Claude that was kind of the star of 110/100,
00:13:18 ◼ ► do you remember this? It was Wistia, I believe, paid them $1,000, $10,000, and $100,000 to make
00:13:28 ◼ ► It is the coolest documentary. I freaking loved it. Again, it's like pre-pandemic, I think. It
00:13:34 ◼ ► was a while ago now, but it is so worth your time. If nothing else, watch the three two-minute
00:13:38 ◼ ► commercials, and it's hilarious to see the differences between the three. If that's not
00:13:42 ◼ ► the same Claude, then I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure it is, and you should check that out. We'll
00:13:45 ◼ ► put a link in the show notes. Did you guys see this when it went around? I don't think so.
00:13:48 ◼ ► Doesn't ring a bell. Oh, man. Well, now you two have homework, but nevertheless, we shall move on.
00:13:56 ◼ ► Yeah, right. One thing occurs to me, I'm just really, really studying the Apple engineer talking
00:14:02 ◼ ► about bug reporting and how it works, the fact that they only see the initial report and everything
00:14:06 ◼ ► else is through an intermediary. That means essentially the most valuable piece of information
00:14:10 ◼ ► in my bug report on my weird window bug is in a subsequent comment. It's like the fifth comment
00:14:16 ◼ ► down. They don't get to see that at all. They only get to see whatever the intermediary just decides
00:14:22 ◼ ► to pass on, if anything. Another thing I saw recently with people sending us feedback, I
00:14:27 ◼ ► forget where it was, but it was like one of the best things you can do for, or maybe it wasn't
00:14:31 ◼ ► for us, maybe it was just in general, one of the best things you can do for reporting bugs is every
00:14:33 ◼ ► time Apple has a new release of a new OS, just copy and paste the bug as a new report and say,
00:14:39 ◼ ► this still happens in iOS 17. And by the way, I previously reported this in feedback, whatever,
00:14:44 ◼ ► whatever. And I know that's dumb, like you're copying and pasting and it seems like it might
00:14:49 ◼ ► be annoying, but that keeps it fresh because there's this whole recency bias where bugs filed
00:14:53 ◼ ► right after a release are given more attention than bugs filed later. And what that would mean
00:14:58 ◼ ► for me is that what I should do is summarize and coalesce all of my comments. Because if you look
00:15:03 ◼ ► at my bug report, it's like, here's my bug. I think it's like this. Here's another video showing it.
00:15:07 ◼ ► Here's what I discovered today. Next week I tried this and I discovered this. Ooh, I had a
00:15:10 ◼ ► breakthrough. It turns out it only happens when more than one user is logged in. Like that's the
00:15:13 ◼ ► headline, right? So the next time I filed this bug, which again is probably futile, but whatever,
00:15:17 ◼ ► the next time I filed the same bug, the bug will be multiple when multiple users logged in,
00:15:21 ◼ ► windowing doesn't work, or like that'll be the name of it because you just mentioned this before,
00:15:30 ◼ ► But I can't change that after the fact that apparently they don't see anything else that
00:15:34 ◼ ► I write. They just see the stuff that's passed on. And we had a comment in the chat room.
00:15:38 ◼ ► Somebody said, when I was at Apple, my team read every bug report, but we couldn't communicate back
00:15:42 ◼ ► directly. All correspondence went through dev relations and they were like 20 people for the
00:15:47 ◼ ► entire company. So there was your bottleneck. No idea if it's still like that though. So
00:15:51 ◼ ► more reports of the dysfunction from inside Apple. I love the advice of like, if your bug gets stuck,
00:16:02 ◼ ► You know, like if somebody, oh, just send some potatoes down. I don't know what the advice would
00:16:07 ◼ ► be. I mean, fortunately I guess Apple's bug reporting process works worse than all of our
00:16:15 ◼ ► I mean, the idea is like you're gaming the system because if you know that special attention is to
00:16:20 ◼ ► pay two bug reports to happen and the 48 hours after a new release goes out, you filing a dupe
00:16:25 ◼ ► in that period gets your thing to be seen, you know, by the time when you know more people are
00:16:31 ◼ ► looking at it and paying attention, which is terrible for Apple because like all that means
00:16:34 ◼ ► is just more, more pebbles on the pile of the giant mountain of pebbles that is bug reports.
00:16:39 ◼ ► Like the reason they're so perpetually behind and leave things unresponded to for years and years is
00:16:43 ◼ ► they just have too much to deal with. And the advice from the inside is, hey, if you want to
00:16:47 ◼ ► take advantage of the broken system the most, add to our problem by filing, filing more and more of
00:16:52 ◼ ► the same report. Right. Like, and like I said, I'm working around the idea that they don't see
00:16:56 ◼ ► my subsequent comments. I now have to periodically coalesce all of my comments and discoveries on my
00:17:06 ◼ ► - I am pretty sure, you know, I have to try to verify this with a birdie, but I'm pretty sure
00:17:12 ◼ ► anything that you or I or whomever puts in the feedback does make it to the associated radar
00:17:21 ◼ ► that's internal to them. Now, unquestionably things in the radar do not go back out toward us.
00:17:26 ◼ ► And that's, well, it's not really a problem, but it's part of the problem. I thought though that
00:17:30 ◼ ► as you add comments, I could swear that does bubble back into the internal radar, but I'm not
00:17:35 ◼ ► a hundred percent sure. Maybe an employee can write us. - And maybe this is on a per team basis.
00:17:40 ◼ ► Maybe, you know, the, the, the anonymous feedback from the Apple engineers information is out of
00:17:43 ◼ ► data only applies to their team. Again, within Apple, there is not as much consistency as you
00:17:48 ◼ ► might imagine from department to department, team to team, so on. - We are brought to you this week
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00:20:03 ◼ ► for sponsoring our show. - A lot of people were very grumpy. I think it was Marco, maybe it was
00:20:11 ◼ ► John, but one of us saying that people who don't subscribe to things just don't want to pay.
00:20:16 ◼ ► Somebody put this in the show notes, so I guess there's a retort coming. - Yeah, I put it in there
00:20:20 ◼ ► to give Marco a chance to clarify what he meant. I know what I think he meant, which is why I didn't
00:20:25 ◼ ► comment on it during the episode, but I think we should let Marco, if he wants to, clarify his
00:20:29 ◼ ► thoughts there. - Honestly, I don't have that much to say. There are some people who wrote in to say,
00:20:35 ◼ ► "Hey, I will pay, I object to subscriptions on grounds XYZ." The problem is, again, in most of
00:20:44 ◼ ► the instances where people said that, what they went on to say with what they would pay, what
00:20:51 ◼ ► price would they pay, it ends up being maybe two years worth of a subscription price. And it's not,
00:20:57 ◼ ► it doesn't really work. And people brought up all sorts of examples of, "What if I only use the app
00:21:03 ◼ ► every so often? What if I'm fine with the old version?" And you can bring up counter examples
00:21:07 ◼ ► to any software pricing model where it doesn't work as efficiently for those examples. But as we
00:21:12 ◼ ► discussed, last week when we were talking about this, as we discussed, all the other models for
00:21:17 ◼ ► paying for software are also imperfect and also have usage cases or models where they don't
00:21:28 ◼ ► all these systems have use cases that are not great in them. But I think given the modern
00:21:34 ◼ ► software ecosystem where the platforms we are all developing on are constantly changing,
00:21:40 ◼ ► both the software and the hardware that our apps are running on change at a pretty aggressive pace
00:21:46 ◼ ► here in Apple land, and the expectations of what your apps will do are constantly going up.
00:21:51 ◼ ► I know this because I'm an app developer. And I know, for instance, Overcast generally gets
00:21:57 ◼ ► very good star ratings and reviews in the App Store. I took a little while after, was it iOS
00:22:03 ◼ ► 15 that introduced widgets or 14? I forget. I took a while to implement widgets because I was behind
00:22:09 ◼ ► in my development, which is the theme of the last few years of my life. But anyway, I was behind.
00:22:13 ◼ ► I took a few extra months to implement them before, after the OS came out, I didn't have them
00:22:19 ◼ ► for a few months. And I started getting a pretty significant amount of one star reviews that were
00:22:24 ◼ ► destroying my review average. It was enough to make a difference. So we have to keep updating
00:22:30 ◼ ► our apps. People say, "Oh, I can just buy this version and use it for years and years and years."
00:22:36 ◼ ► You say that, but that's not, as a collective, that's not what you do. What people actually do
00:22:43 ◼ ► is expect apps to be updated on a regular basis indefinitely into the future. And so the best
00:22:49 ◼ ► model that has the least dysfunction in it to pay for that is either advertising or subscriptions
00:22:55 ◼ ► or some choice between either one. That's how software is funded these days. I know it's not
00:23:04 ◼ ► perfect, but when you say I object to subscriptions, usually the use case you're citing is either,
00:23:11 ◼ ► "I really just don't want to pay you that much money," or it's something that's a fairly uncommon
00:23:17 ◼ ► use case that we can't accommodate everything and make it perfect for everybody, but a different
00:23:22 ◼ ► model would have more of those problems or more things that didn't fit into it. So this is the
00:23:27 ◼ ► model we have. And if you want to pay for software and not just have it be ad funded or could be data
00:23:33 ◼ ► funded, if you want to pay for software, this is the way to do it for most people, for most apps,
00:23:37 ◼ ► most of the time. Two things there. One, the implied thing in all your statements is that,
00:23:43 ◼ ► given the choices we have from Apple, Apple doesn't allow infinite number of business models. It only
00:23:49 ◼ ► supports certain ones. So the one that a lot of people cite is old-style upgrade pricing, where
00:23:53 ◼ ► you pay one price and then you have a discounted price to upgrade to the next major version because
00:23:57 ◼ ► you bought the previous one. Apple doesn't support that in any reasonable way. So even though people
00:24:03 ◼ ► may like that model, it's not an option for us currently in any of the app stores. Outside the
00:24:08 ◼ ► app store is an option and it's widely practiced there, but not inside. And the second thing is,
00:24:12 ◼ ► I think the main objection people had was when you said, when people say they don't want to pay
00:24:16 ◼ ► subscription, what they really mean is they don't want to pay anything. And people object and say,
00:24:19 ◼ ► that's not true. I do want to pay something. And then they go on to explain all this stuff
00:24:22 ◼ ► that you were just addressing about, well, I want to pay two years worth, or I want to pay a small
00:24:26 ◼ ► amount and never have any future updates or whatever. And my most charitable interpretation
00:24:31 ◼ ► of Marco's typically somewhat extreme statement is that people are really saying they just don't
00:24:37 ◼ ► want to pay is basically that given the limited options we have for certain classes of applications,
00:24:45 ◼ ► subscriptions or ads are the only way that those apps can be a feasible ongoing concern.
00:24:51 ◼ ► And if you say you don't want to pay in one of those ways, what you're effectively saying is
00:24:56 ◼ ► you don't want to pay at all because there is no other option for you. And there is no other option
00:25:00 ◼ ► for the app. We understand that you would pass money to the developer in exchange for what you
00:25:06 ◼ ► want. But what we're saying is like, again, for a given app and a given context, that would not work
00:25:12 ◼ ► if you if everyone did that the app would disappear in a year because the developer would not be able
00:25:16 ◼ ► to afford to continue making it. So that's, I don't think he's saying that you're lying and
00:25:21 ◼ ► that you you know, you're you're trying to pretend you would pay money, but really you wouldn't.
00:25:25 ◼ ► I believe people when they say they would pay money, it's just that the way they want to pay
00:25:29 ◼ ► it either isn't supported by Apple, or it is supported but is not sustainable for app developers
00:25:34 ◼ ► for the reason that Marco described. And you can debate it on an individual app basis because we're
00:25:38 ◼ ► all just speculating like we think this would not be sustainable. Casey's app is a great point.
00:25:50 ◼ ► becomes expensive. And he's got a plan for that now. But you could say, well, the app is free now,
00:25:53 ◼ ► he shouldn't worry about it. But that is risky for the developer, right? Why don't you just try it?
00:26:02 ◼ ► you know, it's a judgment call. It's why I've been debating it or whatever. Nothing is cut and dry.
00:26:06 ◼ ► But I feel like that's the the thing we're trying to express here is we're trying to find a business
00:26:11 ◼ ► model where it's sustainable for the app to continue to continue to exist. And then find
00:26:16 ◼ ► the customers who are willing to support that model and they are there. The two are tied
00:26:24 ◼ ► And as we said in the past, you're always going to leave some people out either because the model
00:26:28 ◼ ► they want isn't supported by Apple or because the developer thinks that the model they want
00:26:42 ◼ ► this isn't relevant to Casey's app, which is why we never discussed it, but it's worth mentioning.
00:26:46 ◼ ► If you have a document-based application that has some kind of file format, which CallShe does not,
00:26:51 ◼ ► there is the complaint about subscriptions that says, hey, if I make a bunch of documents with
00:27:02 ◼ ► that application anymore, that's fine. I stopped paying a subscription, but also I can no longer
00:27:07 ◼ ► even open the documents that I made over the past, whatever number of years when I was subscribing
00:27:12 ◼ ► it. So basically people say they're holding my file formats hostage. I can't even continue to
00:27:17 ◼ ► just look at them. Like say it is like a graphics program where you draw stuff or whatever,
00:27:20 ◼ ► and it's a subscription and you draw it for you. You subscribe for four years and you draw a whole
00:27:24 ◼ ► bunch of stuff and you're like, okay, well I'm done with my drawing now. As soon as you stop paying,
00:27:31 ◼ ► that's the idea that the file format locks your stuff up. People may not remember it back in the
00:27:35 ◼ ► bad old days or the good old days, depending on how you look at it, of paying $500 for MacWrite 2.0
00:27:52 ◼ ► maybe not MacWrite, Word is better. The next version of Microsoft Word would save all its
00:27:56 ◼ ► documents in Word 6 format and you couldn't open Word 6 documents if you had Word 5. So even though
00:28:02 ◼ ► you're perfectly happy with Word 5 and Word 5 can continue to open all of your Word 5 documents,
00:28:06 ◼ ► anytime anyone sends you a Microsoft Word document, you're like, oh, I can't open this.
00:28:09 ◼ ► Can you resave it to me in 5.0 format? And they go, what? And so eventually you need to upgrade. So
00:28:14 ◼ ► file formats have always been a weird kind of lock in slash dragging you into the future of making you
00:28:20 ◼ ► pay more money. But I do get that at any application that has a file format, subscriptions,
00:28:29 ◼ ► subscriptions do kind of hold your files hostage. At the very least, if you ever want to look at
00:28:34 ◼ ► them again or open them or edit them again, you have to pay subscriptions. On the flip side of
00:28:39 ◼ ► that, I think subscriptions do fit that pattern in one way in that if it's like $5 a month,
00:28:43 ◼ ► like Final Cut Pro is or whatever, it's like, oh, the second I stopped paying, I can't open my Final
00:28:47 ◼ ► Cut products. Yeah, but if you paid for Final Cut for two months and you paid $10, and then you have
00:28:52 ◼ ► a year gap and you want to open one again, just pay $5 more for a month. It's so much cheaper than
00:28:56 ◼ ► having to buy the new version of Final Cut Pro for $300 just to open your documents again, because
00:29:00 ◼ ► the old version you had no longer even runs on the new Mac you got or whatever. So everything has its
00:29:06 ◼ ► ups and downs. And I don't think the current model we're in is perfect. Again, I think there's lots
00:29:11 ◼ ► of models that are suitable for some applications that Apple simply does not support. If you want to
00:29:16 ◼ ► see how different models work, look at the Mac software market such as it is, I know it's small,
00:29:22 ◼ ► outside the Mac App Store. Lots of different models exist there, including old style upgrade
00:29:26 ◼ ► pricing, more flexible subscriptions, more forgiving subscriptions, all different kinds
00:29:31 ◼ ► of subscriptions. Like panic does this weird thing where like you pay a certain amount of money,
00:29:35 ◼ ► you get a certain number of updates as part of that, however long it takes them to put out that
00:29:38 ◼ ► update or something. I forget the exact model, but people try all sorts of things to try to find the
00:29:44 ◼ ► right combination of model that funds the development of the application, combined with
00:29:49 ◼ ► model that developers, that customers are willing to pay for. And we're all just trying to do the
00:29:53 ◼ ► best we can here. Sometimes you screw it up in one direction or another and we course correct.
00:30:00 ◼ ► - This is just about my speculation about what Bungie owns and what they don't. Zumphrey wrote
00:30:07 ◼ ► in to say, "Just confirming that both Myth and Oni were given to Take-Two Interactive after the
00:30:11 ◼ ► Microsoft acquisition, Take-Two was a game publisher." So Myth, a beloved game franchise,
00:30:16 ◼ ► beloved by me anyway, and Oni, a less beloved game that I'd also played, were Bungie games,
00:30:23 ◼ ► but they were given or sold or whatever to Take-Two Interactive. According to the folks
00:30:28 ◼ ► maintaining Myth, and you may be wondering who the heck is maintaining Myth? There's like a
00:30:39 ◼ ► according to the folks maintaining Myth, Take-Two still wants far too much money for both Myth and
00:30:43 ◼ ► Oni, especially since they've let both rot for them to be purchased back by either fans or Bungie.
00:30:47 ◼ ► Because I'm assuming the people who maintain Myth are like, "Wouldn't it be great if we could get
00:30:50 ◼ ► the rights back to Myth and be the official maintainers to Myth and sell a new version?"
00:31:01 ◼ ► Marathon, and Destiny have always been owned by Bungie. Myth and Oni are owned by Take-Two,
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00:33:15 ◼ ► Marco, what time is it? It is time for our first ever OS exit interviews. So I started this
00:33:27 ◼ ► tradition on our show a few couple years ago, giving exit interviews to the outgoing iPhone
00:33:33 ◼ ► right before the iPhone event of each fall. So we could kind of review, like, how was this past
00:33:39 ◼ ► iPhone? After a year of using it, what do we think of it? What are we hoping for for the next one as
00:33:46 ◼ ► a result of shortcomings of the current one, etc.? And so I thought this would be a good time for us
00:33:52 ◼ ► to do that same thing for this past year's Apple platform OSes, because they are all about to be
00:33:58 ◼ ► sort of replaced. You know, I know it's going to be in beta for a while, but whatever. So I wanted
00:34:02 ◼ ► to do quick exit interviews before we get to our www predictions for the past year of OSes. So that
00:34:08 ◼ ► would be iOS 16, iPad OS 16, watchOS 9, and Mac OS Ventura. I'm not doing tvOS because nobody cares,
00:34:15 ◼ ► and nothing ever changes. So anyway, true story. Yeah, I mean, sorry, that's the reality.
00:34:34 ◼ ► like user facing features and API's. The API's, as I'm developing now, I'm trying to, you know,
00:34:39 ◼ ► rewrite my entire app in SwiftUI. And SwiftUI got a bunch of really useful changes. And there's a
00:34:45 ◼ ► whole bunch of little API tweaks that happened in iOS 16. You know, big and small, they're,
00:34:51 ◼ ► you know, SwiftUI's entire navigation paradigm change, which I think it went from one horrible
00:34:55 ◼ ► thing to something that is mostly not horrible, which is, which is pretty impressive. It, a bunch
00:35:02 ◼ ► of smaller stuff changed as well, a bunch of new utilities, a bunch of new layout capabilities,
00:35:05 ◼ ► like it was a huge update for SwiftUI. And then for various other like small areas of the,
00:35:11 ◼ ► of the API's. And also user facing features, the lock screen, like the lock screen customization,
00:35:19 ◼ ► having multiple lock screens, having lock screen widgets, that was all new in iOS 16. And there
00:35:26 ◼ ► were, you know, a whole bunch of other smaller stuff. Live activities came, you know, a little
00:35:29 ◼ ► bit later that was kind of an iOS 16 thing. It kind of came late, but it got there. There were
00:35:35 ◼ ► a few, a few changes to like the, the, like the way focus modes could do stuff. I forget, did we
00:35:41 ◼ ► have focus modes in iOS 15 or was it still called do not disturb then? No, it's, it's been around
00:35:46 ◼ ► for more than one year. I thought so. Yeah. But the, but the focus mode became an API that apps
00:35:51 ◼ ► could integrate with as did I believe share for share with you. I think that also came in iOS 16.
00:35:57 ◼ ► And then messages got a huge upgrade with being able to edit, being able to mark as unread.
00:36:03 ◼ ► So there were, it was a pretty big update and I would say overall, Oh, pass keys. I forgot about
00:36:10 ◼ ► pass keys. Like there's so much, like there's like there were there, there have been so much
00:36:16 ◼ ► in iOS 16. Certain things I think didn't come out so well. One of the major changes was the,
00:36:28 ◼ ► with the little Siri microphone thing into a text field you would have to say things like period
00:36:33 ◼ ► and new line. And they added a thing that tried to make that automatic. Frankly, I changed it back.
00:36:39 ◼ ► Like fortunately they made that a setting and I changed it back because I found it too unreliable.
00:36:44 ◼ ► And I found, I still now just say period new line. But it's, I'm glad they at least were working on
00:36:49 ◼ ► that. Otherwise I think that's the, that's the biggest stuff. I mean, the home app got redesigned
00:36:56 ◼ ► and everything, but for the most part, those, those were like the major themes I think for,
00:37:01 ◼ ► for the user and developer side. And I would say overall, iOS 16 was a pretty good year. It was a
00:37:08 ◼ ► pretty solid release. I don't think I really had a lot of major problems with it. Like there haven't
00:37:13 ◼ ► really been, you know, major unstable features. And this is honestly, you know, we've, you know,
00:37:20 ◼ ► listeners, you know that when Apple has software quality problems, we will be brutal and we will
00:37:26 ◼ ► call them out on it constantly until they fix them. I think Apple's software quality is in a
00:37:31 ◼ ► pretty good place these days. I really think that. So here it is. I just wanted to say about
00:37:36 ◼ ► iOS. I think it's a great example for people who are new to the platform or new to the earth.
00:37:43 ◼ ► You may think like, like we say every year, you know, every year the iPhone's pretty good. And
00:37:49 ◼ ► you know, usually iOS is pretty good. Like one of the, one of the things you didn't mention at all
00:37:52 ◼ ► is like, is iOS crashing, are there stability issues or their data loss issues? Like we don't
00:37:56 ◼ ► even talk about this stuff related to iOS. Was the upgrade terrible? Did it brick people's phones?
00:38:00 ◼ ► Like you just don't hear about those things. And I feel like that goes, this is a great example of
00:38:06 ◼ ► the platform that is the most important to Apple that makes them the most money also gets the most
00:38:12 ◼ ► resources makes perfect sense, but it wasn't always that way. Those of us who have been in
00:38:17 ◼ ► the application for longer, remember when iOS was not 60% of Apple's profits or revenue. I forget
00:38:22 ◼ ► which one it is, but it used to be that iOS was a tiny little sliver because the iPhone was brand
00:38:26 ◼ ► new and there were iOS releases that were terrible that did crash. We're just like, everything was
00:38:32 ◼ ► broken and it made everything worse. And it was a giant mess. And it was a long time ago. So we're
00:38:36 ◼ ► talking about like, you know, iPhone OS version five or, you know, back when it was called firmer.
00:38:40 ◼ ► 13 was a bad release. Yeah. They had been worse, but in general, because iOS gets so much attention
00:38:48 ◼ ► and so much resources, which is warranted, I think because of the importance, the importance it is to
00:38:53 ◼ ► the company, Apple has it. This is evidence of like, what happens if you put lots of people on
00:38:58 ◼ ► something? What happens if some of your best people are in something? What happens if you
00:39:00 ◼ ► put tons of money into it? What happens is that every year new iPhones come out and we go, you
00:39:05 ◼ ► know what? These are pretty good. This is a good phone. We have quibbles. I mean, you know, it's
00:39:08 ◼ ► like these tiny differences that we debate, but in general, the phones, you know, don't catch fire,
00:39:13 ◼ ► don't fail. The wifi things don't go bad. The screens don't burn in. They don't de-laminate.
00:39:18 ◼ ► Occasionally they bend. But again, that was a long time ago. Like the iPhones tend to be good and iOS,
00:39:23 ◼ ► the recent releases of iOS for the most part, they've been pretty good. When I look back at
00:39:28 ◼ ► iOS 16, the things you listed, even if I don't care about all, any of those things, there's not
00:39:32 ◼ ► really any negatives like iOS 16 erased all my photos. I was 16 crashes all the time. I was 16
00:39:37 ◼ ► burns my battery down. I was 16 made something that used to work, not work. Right. You hear
00:39:43 ◼ ► about those things for, you know, let's say Mac OS, but not so much for iOS. So I think iOS and
00:39:49 ◼ ► the iPhone continue to be great examples of what Apple can do when, you know, when they put the
00:39:56 ◼ ► maximum amount of effort into it, when they think it's important to the company, what it is important
00:40:00 ◼ ► to the company and they, and they resource it as such, even for a platform like iOS, that's like
00:40:05 ◼ ► old and creaky. And it's not going to be super cool. Like the VR platform or whatever, like it's
00:40:09 ◼ ► their bread and butter, but it's really important to have that bread and butter because it keeps
00:40:12 ◼ ► everything else going. So I'm, I'm glad that iOS 16 was good. I agree. I don't have any complaints
00:40:17 ◼ ► about it. I enjoy the new features they added the new features they added more or less work,
00:40:22 ◼ ► you know, like all the stuff that you're talking about. Like, you know, the, the AI, uh, not AI,
00:40:27 ◼ ► sorry. The ML punctuation thing where it figures out to put the money. That's a hard problem, but
00:40:31 ◼ ► it doesn't crash. It doesn't cause the screen to get all scrambled. If you don't like it,
00:40:35 ◼ ► you can turn it off. And in general, the features they added like editing and marketing is on, uh,
00:40:39 ◼ ► on red and sending and all that stuff or whatever. That stuff just works. It works like they said it
00:40:43 ◼ ► did in the keynote and makes the phone better. And we just go like, we just take it for granted.
00:40:46 ◼ ► Like, yeah, another good iOS release. Good job. Uh, so I hope Apple continues in that path. And I
00:40:59 ◼ ► Yeah. You know, I, I agree with both of you guys. The one complaint I have about iOS 16, which is,
00:41:10 ◼ ► is a lot of the stuff they added. I feel like it, it either the configuration is clunky or
00:41:18 ◼ ► non obvious, or there's not enough configuration. So like setting up, um, your custom home screens,
00:41:25 ◼ ► that's very, very clunky and, and I don't love it. And plus for the longest time, they like
00:41:30 ◼ ► forced you to change both wallpapers at the same time. I'm not sure if that's true anymore.
00:41:35 ◼ ► No, no, they fixed that. That's another example of even when they make a fumble, like that new
00:41:39 ◼ ► feature comes out that they've never had before and they kind of flubbed the UI. They fixed it in
00:41:43 ◼ ► a mid cycle release. We didn't have to wait to iOS 17, but that's true. But even still, like I wish
00:41:48 ◼ ► there was a little bit easier to configure and perhaps more configuration. Another thing that
00:41:52 ◼ ► drives me absolutely bad is I have my phone set up to randomly rotate through pictures of Aaron
00:41:58 ◼ ► and the kids. And every time I lock the phone, it will find a new picture to show you on the screen,
00:42:04 ◼ ► the always on screen, which I have left on, uh, it'll find a new picture to show and figuring out
00:42:08 ◼ ► where or what picture that is, is like a 75 tap process that underscore documented way back when
00:42:15 ◼ ► I don't even remember how to do it, but it's a nightmare. And I wish so badly if there was a way
00:42:22 ◼ ► that you could, even if it's like a triple, triple tap or something, but some way to say,
00:42:27 ◼ ► please show this to me in photos. I would love for that. Although actually on that point,
00:42:31 ◼ ► but the photos thing, I think this is a great example of what money and resources can't buy,
00:42:36 ◼ ► which is like, you know, no matter how many people you put in, how much money you put into it.
00:42:45 ◼ ► thing, it's not going to have all the features everybody wants. Even if they thought of that,
00:42:49 ◼ ► even if they thought someone said, Hey, you know, people see these photos on their home screen,
00:42:52 ◼ ► they're probably going to want to be able to find them in their photos collection. There's probably
00:42:56 ◼ ► not time to do that for a 1.0 given the size of the team that's assigned for this brand new
00:43:00 ◼ ► feature. So this is a lesson for people, all the people who have never written software for a
00:43:03 ◼ ► living, no matter how much you care, no matter how much money you have, 1.0 is not going to do all
00:43:09 ◼ ► the things that you wish it did. And it seems like you could fix that by adding people or money, but
00:43:13 ◼ ► there are many books about this that you can read if you care to understand why that's not the case.
00:43:21 ◼ ► all of these home screen customization feature or the, I mean, sorry, rather lock screen customization
00:43:25 ◼ ► features. Like the other day I was, I was in a restaurant and the people at the next table over,
00:43:30 ◼ ► one of them had shown the other person their iPhone and the other person was like, Oh my God,
00:43:35 ◼ ► how do you get that up there? And they had no idea that like lock screen widgets existed. And I feel
00:43:41 ◼ ► like a lot of these features, a lot of the, you know, the iOS power features that have come along
00:43:46 ◼ ► in the last few years, they're really hidden from people. Like, you know, I've said before how
00:43:51 ◼ ► nobody knows about how you can customize the complications on watch faces. Similarly, no one
00:43:57 ◼ ► knows about lock screen widgets. When, you know, when I look around in public and I see how other
00:44:02 ◼ ► people have their phones set up, I almost never see anybody with any lock screen widgets, because
00:44:08 ◼ ► I think that whole system is still very hidden if you don't know to look for it. And so that,
00:44:14 ◼ ► I think that was one area that, you know, I recognize Apple's resistance towards, you know,
00:44:21 ◼ ► necessary. And they want everything, Oh, you just, you just long press here. And then this
00:44:26 ◼ ► whole new world opens up. And I think they, I hope that future OSs maybe that we're about to see in a
00:44:32 ◼ ► week, maybe improve that a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. That's, it's a hard problem because I,
00:44:36 ◼ ► the, you don't want to be like, Oh, you have to go through this manual tutorial and like, you know,
00:44:41 ◼ ► then you launch an iOS app and they want to, there's like a 17 tap thing where some overlay
00:44:45 ◼ ► is showing you every new feature they added and everything and makes it quote unquote discoverable.
00:44:48 ◼ ► But at a certain point you just tune out and you're like, okay, next, next, next. I just want
00:44:51 ◼ ► to get to the point where I'm using the app. Apple tends not to belabor the onboarding process of the
00:44:57 ◼ ► phone. There's already enough crap you have to go through. They're not going to be like, Oh,
00:45:00 ◼ ► and by the way, did you know that I was 16? We added the ability to have widgets on your live
00:45:03 ◼ ► screen at that point. People are like, Oh, I just want to use my phone. Right. And it's a hard
00:45:06 ◼ ► problem because you don't want to shove it in their face. Uh, you know, and you don't want to
00:45:10 ◼ ► force them to go through a big tutorial. It's the nature of an OS when it gets as old and when the
00:45:16 ◼ ► version number hits 16, there's probably a lot of features in there that are going to be more sort
00:45:20 ◼ ► of power user expert features or features that I get discovered by word of mouth or popularized by
00:45:27 ◼ ► seeing somebody else that has them. And in some ways that's kind of inevitable. Like it's, you
00:45:32 ◼ ► should, every single feature on your phone can't be easily discoverable because that would be a
00:45:35 ◼ ► nightmare, right? There's always going to be things that are obscure. And that's why Apple has things
00:45:39 ◼ ► like, and the, you know, Apple retail stores where you like common, we'll show you how to use your
00:45:44 ◼ ► phone or your Mac or whatever. And we scoffed like, Oh, people, Oh, people have to go there
00:45:47 ◼ ► and they have to learn how to use their phone. Like people who don't listen to tech podcasts are not
00:45:50 ◼ ► going to discover this on their own, but maybe they will realize, Hey, there's like a free class.
00:45:54 ◼ ► I can go to the Apple store where they'll tell me how to use my phone. And I bet they will cover
00:45:58 ◼ ► stuff like this in that, you know, 30 minute class or whatever. And people will feel like they get
00:46:02 ◼ ► great value of it and they'll, they'll love Apple. So I think those classes are a great idea. And
00:46:06 ◼ ► those classes are way better than forcing everybody to go through like a tutorial level and video game
00:46:10 ◼ ► parlance to learn how to use the new features of their phone. Cause most people do not care,
00:46:14 ◼ ► especially at the moment they're setting up their phone, but maybe later they will care. And when
00:46:18 ◼ ► they choose to go to a class to learn about their phone, they'll be happy about it. If Apple chooses
00:46:22 ◼ ► to try to show them all the new features they added, they will not be happy. Yeah. But there's,
00:46:27 ◼ ► you know, there is kind of like a, a middle ground though. Like, you know, the lock screen
00:46:30 ◼ ► customization and widget thing. I just looked around the settings app. I don't see anything
00:46:34 ◼ ► about it anywhere in there. As far as I can tell that entire, the entire section of the phone of
00:46:39 ◼ ► lock screen customization does not exist in the settings app. You have to get to it from the lock
00:46:45 ◼ ► screen through that, you know, the long press or whatever. And I feel like that's, you know, look,
00:46:49 ◼ ► they'll add things to the settings app whenever they want to. Have you set up a new phone recently
00:46:54 ◼ ► with a new Apple ID? It is spammed like crazy with all sorts of service upsells and other garbage.
00:47:04 ◼ ► did you know we have a new service? Yeah. Like they, they already have a section called home
00:47:08 ◼ ► screen. They could have one there called lock screen, or they can have this section renamed
00:47:12 ◼ ► home and lock screen and have it, have it be two subjects. Like they have obvious places for it.
00:47:17 ◼ ► Yeah. I don't know if this particular problem is intractable, but, uh, you know, like another
00:47:21 ◼ ► example is like, uh, when you swipe left or whatever, when you swipe, uh, to reveal the
00:47:26 ◼ ► widgets that are to the left of your first home, do you swipe left on the home screen? You don't
00:47:29 ◼ ► want or how, which direction is that? I don't even, actually, I don't even know. We talked
00:47:34 ◼ ► about this last time. I'm like, what do people mean when you scroll down? What I mean is that
00:47:37 ◼ ► imagine in the imaginary physical world of your phone to the left of your first home screen is
00:47:44 ◼ ► a screen with a bunch of widgets that you can put on it. Right. Um, how many people know that
00:47:48 ◼ ► screen's even there? That's different. That's a whole different section of widgets. It's not
00:47:53 ◼ ► the lock screen. It's the other place. It's a place where widgets were before, you know,
00:47:56 ◼ ► you could put them on your lock screen. Right. And it uses different widgets because lock screen
00:47:59 ◼ ► widgets are a special type. The apps have to have Venns and it can only be black and white.
00:48:02 ◼ ► And I know, I know. Well, what I'm saying is that screen, how many people don't know that screen is
00:48:07 ◼ ► there? Because there's not like you, you open your phone for the first time and there's a little
00:48:10 ◼ ► blinky arrow saying, Hey, did you know there's something over there? I mean, I think they might've
00:48:14 ◼ ► had some kind of discoverability thing the very first time that feature was, was added to iOS,
00:48:18 ◼ ► which was years and years ago. But right now I think people might accidentally do and go, Oh my
00:48:22 ◼ ► God, what is this? What is this screen? I've never seen before, which had like whatever app is the
00:48:26 ◼ ► default that maybe they have like the photos widget, the weather widget is the default or
00:48:29 ◼ ► whatever that is quote unquote, not discoverable. But if you see enough people using a phone and you
00:48:34 ◼ ► see them doing it and you, if you see someone do it, you can say, can I swipe in that direction
00:48:38 ◼ ► and find a bunch of widgets and lo and behold, you can at the bottom of that screen is like a plus
00:48:41 ◼ ► or an edit button or whatever. So a little bit more discoverable than the lock screen stuff.
00:48:45 ◼ ► But like I said, there's always going to be examples of that. That's sort of, what do you
00:48:50 ◼ ► call it? Progressive disclosure or whatever they call it, where it looks simple to the person who
00:48:53 ◼ ► wants it to be simple, but there is more complexity if you know where to find it. And then we're just
00:48:57 ◼ ► trying to find the way to smooth that ramp between those two worlds. To go back a half step to what
00:49:02 ◼ ► John was saying about a version one, you know, so I'm trying to, I don't think I'm going to succeed,
00:49:07 ◼ ► but I'm trying very hard to get call sheet out the door before WWDC, which means I probably should
00:49:11 ◼ ► have submitted it last week and I haven't yet, but that's neither here nor there. Anyway, I have
00:49:15 ◼ ► 18 open tickets issues, whatever in GitHub of which I plan to only fix two of them before I
00:49:24 ◼ ► send it to the app store or to review. So I have 16 things for me to work on the moment I get this
00:49:30 ◼ ► thing published. So John is exactly right. Now granted it is just me, but still that is how this
00:49:35 ◼ ► works. And then one final thought on iOS 16, another thing where I've come to really like
00:49:50 ◼ ► And I think on analog at some point, I'll talk with Mike about what I've been doing with focus
00:49:55 ◼ ► modes recently, cause I've ended up in a situation or what, like that seems like it happened to me.
00:49:59 ◼ ► I have chosen a situation where in, just like white cars, which do happen to you. I've chosen
00:50:05 ◼ ► a situation where in I'm basically in a particular focus mode 24/7. Well, anytime I'm not sleeping,
00:50:10 ◼ ► I'm in this one focus mode and it actually has been working pretty well for me. And like I said,
00:50:15 ◼ ► I'll unpack that on analog probably later this month or whatever. But I've really even have
00:50:20 ◼ ► come to really like focus modes quite a bit, but there's things. And of course off the top of my
00:50:24 ◼ ► head, I can't think of what specifically they are, but there are definitely some things that I wish I
00:50:27 ◼ ► could be either more explicit about or tweak just a little bit. Oh, a great example. I would love to
00:50:33 ◼ ► have a specific home screen for a focus mode and everyone is reaching for their email client saying,
00:50:44 ◼ ► take these five or six apps and put them on my travel home screen when I'm in the travel
00:50:49 ◼ ► focus mode, but that's not how it works. What you need to do is dedicate a page always and forever.
00:50:54 ◼ ► That is the only one that happens to be surfaced during the travel focus mode. Does that make sense?
00:50:59 ◼ ► So you can't like have a bespoke thing that only shows up during your travel focus and then it goes
00:51:05 ◼ ► away. You have to have it there always. And you're just choosing to kind of sort of highlight it or
00:51:09 ◼ ► not. It's a silly example, but it drives me bananas. And so stuff like that, I wish we had a little
00:51:14 ◼ ► more control, but as much as I'm harping on a few of these things, it's because I love them so darn
00:51:20 ◼ ► much. And iOS 16 really is really, really good. I mean, heck, they could have done making iMessages
00:51:28 ◼ ► unread and that would have sold the release for me right there. I'm in. That's all I need. So it
00:51:34 ◼ ► is really, really quite good and I've been really pleased with it. All right, let's move on to
00:51:40 ◼ ► iPad OS 16. This obviously many of the same features apply to iPad OS, although not any of the
00:51:46 ◼ ► lock screen stuff. You know, we'll see if that happens this year, who knows. But I think the
00:51:50 ◼ ► major headliners for iPad OS that were unique to it, or at least mostly unique to it, were
00:51:56 ◼ ► Stage Manager and maybe Freeform and kind of the new paradigm. Like they had this whole thing
00:52:02 ◼ ► called Desktop Class Apps. And what this kind of meant in practice was things like customizable
00:52:08 ◼ ► toolbars and stuff that made, it gave iPad apps a lot more of the abilities that Mac apps have
00:52:14 ◼ ► always had and kind of made like system native UI for a lot of that stuff. But that's kind of a
00:52:19 ◼ ► longer term play for the iPad. Like I think a lot of this stuff with the iPad, they changed some
00:52:24 ◼ ► things like, you know, some better external display support. They had like display scaling
00:52:29 ◼ ► modes and stuff like that. A lot of that stuff seems to be giving the iPad, you know, slowly
00:52:34 ◼ ► over time giving it more and more abilities that are like a Mac in some way, or that can be closer
00:52:40 ◼ ► to a Mac in some way. And I think they largely succeeded. Although that, you know, it remains
00:52:46 ◼ ► to be seen how much the market will use that. But at least look, at least now Apple's using it,
00:52:56 ◼ ► - Steve Stratton Smith has been commenting that both Logic and Final Cut do not use the resizable
00:53:03 ◼ ► window thing that works with Stage Manager. I don't think they even support split view. I mean,
00:53:07 ◼ ► again, their 1.0s, see previous discussion about 1.0s doesn't mean they're never going to, but
00:53:10 ◼ ► yeah, Apple, I mean, Stage Manager does feel like it definitely fizzled. Like it was an idea they
00:53:15 ◼ ► had, but how multitasking might be better. I continue to think it works better on the Mac
00:53:19 ◼ ► than it does in the iPad. iPad people don't seem to be big fans of it. Support from third-party
00:53:23 ◼ ► applications for it has not been wonderful, including from Apple itself. So let's set that
00:53:28 ◼ ► aside. But the other desktop class application stuff of like more controls, better widgets,
00:53:36 ◼ ► like that's all good and positive. But I mean, I feel like we're going to get to eventually the
00:53:40 ◼ ► summary of what we say about iPadOS every year, which is the hardware continues to be let down by
00:53:45 ◼ ► the software because the hardware is so incredibly capable. And by that, I don't just mean power
00:53:49 ◼ ► because the phone is incredibly powerful too, but it's got a tiny screen and it doesn't support
00:53:53 ◼ ► a stylus and you can't connect it to external displays. And like, it's the full picture of
00:53:58 ◼ ► the power of the iPad. The fact that it uses Mac SoC is the fact that you can get one with a really
00:54:03 ◼ ► big screen and you can put a keyboard on it and you can connect it to an external monitor and you
00:54:07 ◼ ► can use a pencil with it. The OS does not do those capabilities justice. That's always our complaint.
00:54:14 ◼ ► And they moved one tiny little inch closer to it with 16 by adding some of the desktop class
00:54:19 ◼ ► application stuff. And then one tiny little inch backwards by attempting to fix multitasking again
00:54:24 ◼ ► with stage manager and having kind of land with a thud. So, you know, not, not, I'm not, even though
00:54:30 ◼ ► iPadOS also, you know, didn't cause crashes and the features they added existed and were fine.
00:54:35 ◼ ► The fundamental complaint about iPadOS that we have a complaint that we don't have about iOS
00:54:41 ◼ ► continues to exist and that we just feel like the, the, you know, the hardware is let down by
00:54:46 ◼ ► the OS. Whereas on the phone, we feel like the hardware is well supported by the OS. The OS
00:54:51 ◼ ► lets the phone do things that we think phone apps should be able to do for the most part.
00:54:55 ◼ ► Not true on iPadOS. Yeah, I think because, you know, iPadOS, the, the, I would say specifically,
00:55:08 ◼ ► specifically multitasking. Like, you know, and when you look at the way the phone, the phone doesn't
00:55:12 ◼ ► have things like split view. So you don't really like, we're able to enjoy that the iPhone as,
00:55:18 ◼ ► you know, there's always one app on screen. There is never more than one app. It's one app on screen.
00:55:24 ◼ ► We got picture on picture on the iPhone. Another example of the thing that said, you know what,
00:55:27 ◼ ► we always know we've had the power to do it, but actually phone screens are big enough. We should
00:55:30 ◼ ► support picture to picture. And they did. And that is a limit for multitasking that I take advantage
00:55:34 ◼ ► of on my little tiny phone screen. But it's not like, you know, I, on iPad, again, iPadOS, you
00:55:40 ◼ ► have the, an external monitor. Yeah, exactly. Like it, you know, you have exceptions on the,
00:55:46 ◼ ► on the phone, like the dynamic island stuff and, you know, control center, which is, you know,
00:55:50 ◼ ► for the most part, the phone is each app takes up the full screen and that, you know, iOS is really
00:55:56 ◼ ► good at that. That's what it was made for. iPadOS still feels like it's fighting you at every turn.
00:56:00 ◼ ► And I appreciate that, you know, some of the changes they've made in the last couple of
00:56:04 ◼ ► releases, like, like when they, they changed, um, some of the like split view controls to put
00:56:08 ◼ ► it into that little ellipsis dot thing on the top of the windows and like, so yeah, that was very
00:56:12 ◼ ► good. Yeah. Some of those things helped a lot, but I still, whenever I'm using an iPad, multitasking
00:56:17 ◼ ► and window management still are very clunky to me and iOS 16 or I'm sorry, iPadOS 16 attempted
00:56:25 ◼ ► to change that in a big way with stage manager. And I, and I think it just, it, I don't think it
00:56:30 ◼ ► made anything better. I think it was a big sidestep in certain ways. I think it was a step back in
00:56:35 ◼ ► certain ways. I, I try, I tried using it myself for maybe a few weeks on my iPad usage. And granted,
00:56:42 ◼ ► I'm not an, I'm not an iPad power user and that's part of the reason why this stuff drives me nuts.
00:56:45 ◼ ► But I found it infuriating. Like everything I, I was only, I only kept using it for that brief time
00:56:54 ◼ ► so I could say I give it a fair shot and I hated every minute of it and it would, it was fighting
00:56:59 ◼ ► me at every turn. So I think that was a clear misstep. I honestly think they would have been
00:57:04 ◼ ► better off not shipping stage manager on the iPad. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm looking at
00:57:08 ◼ ► the, um, the page of Lincoln's show notes for features for iPadOS 16 and other than stage
00:57:13 ◼ ► manager, there's not really that much here that I consider to be unique to the iPad. And I think
00:57:18 ◼ ► what there is has already been covered. They added a weather app. That was a long time coming.
00:57:30 ◼ ► I would not say I'm a power user though. I really, really like having an iPad pro for both casual use
00:57:43 ◼ ► accomplish anything that vaguely looks like work on an iPad. In fact, it's almost never, but in
00:57:47 ◼ ► certain cases it can be done. Um, but no, I, I love my iPad. I love the hardware. I love that I
00:57:53 ◼ ► was able to keep using the smart keyboard or whatever it is, the super fancy floaty keyboard
00:57:58 ◼ ► from, um, the 2018 iPad that I could still use it on my brand new iPad. But yeah, software wise,
00:58:05 ◼ ► it's just like stage manager never clicked for me. Maybe it's a perfectly good feature and it's just
00:58:10 ◼ ► my brain doesn't operate that way. But what I've heard is that it's not very good. And when I tried
00:58:14 ◼ ► it, like I said, my brain just did not click with it. Um, and it's funny because looking at this page,
00:58:20 ◼ ► the, the primary feature here is iCloud shared photo library, which has been very good for me
00:58:25 ◼ ► personally. I know we covered over the past couple of months, a lot of places where there were gotchas
00:58:28 ◼ ► and oopses, but in my experience, it's been great. I've been really happy with it. And I'd like to
00:58:34 ◼ ► jump very briefly back to iOS, uh, yeah, with iOS, the dynamic Island granted. It doesn't happen often
00:58:40 ◼ ► that I've found an app that I use that, that supports the dynamic Island that I use the
00:58:44 ◼ ► features in the dynamic Island. But man, when it is there, when you have an app that supports it,
00:58:50 ◼ ► when they, when it's, when it's working properly, it is pretty freaking great. And I do love it.
00:58:55 ◼ ► But with iPadOS, I mean, shrug, which kind of sucks, right? Cause these are such powerful
00:59:01 ◼ ► pieces of hardware, but eh, like there's nothing, I don't have anything bad to say about iPadOS, but
00:59:07 ◼ ► whereas I can, I can come up with a ton of great things to say about iOS with iPadOS. It's kind of
00:59:12 ◼ ► like, well, they didn't, they didn't ruin it. I guess showing the iPhone getting a little bit more
00:59:17 ◼ ► attention. I was getting more attention. It reminds me of the, the, you know, so the, the iPad pro
00:59:22 ◼ ► didn't get revised. So the, the, uh, because the like Apple pencil thing is in the place of where
00:59:27 ◼ ► the little face ID sensor would be and so on and so forth. So the rumor is like, Hey, well, the one
00:59:31 ◼ ► way they might fix that when they eventually do fix it is they could move the face ID sensor down
00:59:35 ◼ ► into the display and put a notch on it. And people were like notch on the iPad. Why would they want
00:59:39 ◼ ► that? That would be so dumb. But here's the thing. As I said, when the notch came out in iOS, um,
00:59:45 ◼ ► it's not, this is Apple making lemonade out of lemons, right? Apple doesn't want to have to have
00:59:50 ◼ ► this gigantic sensor array there. It's just, they can't get it to be invisible under the screen quite
00:59:55 ◼ ► yet or whatever. So it is what it is. And they're trying to make the best of it and they did great.
00:59:58 ◼ ► And people love it. Oh, I love it. I love it. And it works like you just said or whatever.
01:00:01 ◼ ► But, uh, you know, as I said, when, uh, when the new phone came out, what people love is a new
01:00:07 ◼ ► place for always visible system level UI to be on the screen. They don't love a giant black hole in
01:00:12 ◼ ► the middle of their phone, right? You, but you can get that pretend it's all screen. There's no notch
01:00:16 ◼ ► anymore. You can get all those features of the dynamic island in probably a more aesthetically
01:00:20 ◼ ► pleasing form, but just dedicating part of the screen to have always visible system level UI,
01:00:25 ◼ ► like the Mac does all the time. iPads can do the same thing. We mentioned the three little dots,
01:00:31 ◼ ► which was like the first after years concession of iPadOS. I'm like, okay, I guess we'll have some
01:00:35 ◼ ► visual UI that is like system level thing. Like, you know, every single freaking window in Mac OS
01:00:40 ◼ ► has a three stoplights on it or whatever. Just there's so much room on big iPad screens,
01:00:50 ◼ ► always visible UI, like a dynamic island. And I know you can't, well, we don't have a notch
01:00:54 ◼ ► or whatever. I feel like if they put a notch on the iPad to deal with the pencil situation,
01:01:03 ◼ ► always visible system level UI to their interface. Like they're, they're going, they're bending over
01:01:08 ◼ ► backwards to continue this model of like, we don't have window Chrome. We don't have windows. We don't
01:01:12 ◼ ► have window controls. I'm like, yeah, we know you don't. That's what makes it so annoying to do
01:01:16 ◼ ► anything. And they're grudgingly adding little grab handles and three little dots with a menu.
01:01:20 ◼ ► They're grudgingly adding a control to have like a menu bar. And I feel like if you give the notch
01:01:25 ◼ ► on the next iPad, I think it will be kind of a shame because I don't like the screen real estate
01:01:30 ◼ ► being taken, but I do believe people will see it as a net win because finally iPadOS will be forced
01:01:35 ◼ ► to essentially copy the dynamic island. And then you'll have the ability to have some kind of
01:01:39 ◼ ► visible UI for apps that aren't the front most, you know, it frustrates me so much. Anyway,
01:01:43 ◼ ► iPadOS do better. That's a pretty good story actually. Yeah. I like, I, I, what I want from
01:01:55 ◼ ► representative of everybody, but every time I use an iPad, it mostly makes me want either a Mac or
01:02:01 ◼ ► a phone. And I, I, I wish over time for that to be diminished and for me to really love what the iPad
01:02:08 ◼ ► is. And, and maybe that's just not me. Like maybe it's just wrong for me, but I've never quite gotten
01:02:14 ◼ ► there with an iPad or I've only gotten there for brief moments. And I would love for that to change
01:02:19 ◼ ► anyway. How about watchOS 9? This is actually, I don't think there's that much to say about
01:02:26 ◼ ► watchOS 9 because there's not that much to say about most versions of watchOS because most
01:02:29 ◼ ► versions of watchOS have not that many visible changes to either the user stuff or developer
01:02:35 ◼ ► APIs. And I think watchOS 9 was very similar. They did actually, so I recently was setting up,
01:02:44 ◼ ► I was trying to customize the, the metrics that were displayed for certain workout types in the
01:02:50 ◼ ► watch. And this used to be in the watch app on the phone, which was really frustrating. Is it like,
01:02:55 ◼ ► if you were already out on a run, for instance, and you're like, ah, crap, I wanted to see the
01:02:59 ◼ ► average pace, not the current pace or whatever. Like there was no way for you to change that if
01:03:04 ◼ ► you were already gone. Now with this new version, they moved it, they moved all that customization
01:03:10 ◼ ► into the workout app on the watch. And they moved, they changed a whole bunch of stuff. And that
01:03:14 ◼ ► actually took me forever to find. If in case anyone out there, in case you want to find that,
01:03:19 ◼ ► you got to hit the ellipsis button on the start workout blobs, and it's buried way deep in there.
01:03:24 ◼ ► You'll see if you start, if you start hunting around in there. But anyway, the workout app got
01:03:29 ◼ ► a whole bunch of like, you know, new stuff like that. A few new capabilities here and there,
01:03:33 ◼ ► but for the most part, I think that was about it for like, obvious user facing features that
01:03:40 ◼ ► you would actually see that were part of watchOS 9. Not just, you know, obviously, with the long
01:03:45 ◼ ► true the Apple watch ultra, there were certain abilities that the ultra got that that you know,
01:03:50 ◼ ► the rest of us that other watches might not have gotten or some of them came to both. But for the
01:03:55 ◼ ► most part, watchOS 9 was a pretty quiet release. And again, this is this is like every other
01:04:02 ◼ ► release of watchOS. The, the developer API's were also pretty quiet. You know, there there were some,
01:04:09 ◼ ► you know, whenever something happens happens to Swift UI, that usually is spread to all the all
01:04:14 ◼ ► the platforms with UI runs on sometimes except for Mac, but you know, for the most part, like,
01:04:18 ◼ ► whenever iOS gets Swift UI thing, usually watchOS gets a two. So that helps at least. But for the
01:04:25 ◼ ► most part, the you know, watchOS 9 was was a pretty subtle release, as well as just alongside
01:04:33 ◼ ► of almost every other watchOS release. They, the watch face situation is still really, you know,
01:04:40 ◼ ► underwhelming and limited. I still wish for third party watch faces or at least very, very large
01:04:47 ◼ ► complications that we can have more control over or something like that. I think there's there's so
01:04:52 ◼ ► much more that watch faces could be and watchOS 9 did basically nothing to to really improve that.
01:04:59 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, I really like my Apple Watch. But that being said, I agree with you that there
01:05:05 ◼ ► wasn't that much here. I've, I did dedicate myself to being a little bit more religious about sleeping
01:05:13 ◼ ► with my watch. But that quickly fell by the wayside because I would put the watch on the
01:05:16 ◼ ► charger in the evening when I shower, because that's the correct thing to do. Don't at me.
01:05:21 ◼ ► And then I would, you know, never put it back on and or in or maybe I would put it on to charge
01:05:26 ◼ ► while I was brushing my teeth or whatever. And then I would forget to put it back on or it
01:05:29 ◼ ► wouldn't charge by the time I passed out. And so I tried to be very good about it for like a couple
01:05:35 ◼ ► of weeks and then it fell off fell by the wayside. I didn't even realize you're talking about the
01:05:39 ◼ ► complication thing. Like I didn't even realize you could futz around with the with the views on the
01:05:45 ◼ ► workouts. I'm sure I knew this at some point. But it wasn't until you said something a moment ago
01:05:51 ◼ ► that I was like, Oh yeah, can I do? Oh, wait, where is it? Oh, you got to go in. You got to
01:05:55 ◼ ► hit the ellipsis. Then you got to hit the pencil. Like it is so not discoverable, which I mean,
01:05:59 ◼ ► it is the watch. I can, I can give them a buy on that, but no part of this was obvious to me,
01:06:04 ◼ ► but I was just fiddling with it while you were talking to there's some cool stuff in here.
01:06:07 ◼ ► But yeah, I mean, I love my Apple watch. I don't know that I yearn for that much more from it other
01:06:14 ◼ ► than perhaps a little bit more customization with regard to like complications and what
01:06:20 ◼ ► complications fit where and so on and so forth. I would love third party watch pieces, but I mean,
01:06:24 ◼ ► that's going to happen the same time we get an Apple TV set, right? Like it's just at this rate,
01:06:28 ◼ ► it's never going to fricking happen. Um, but no, all in all, I like my watch. I like the hardware.
01:06:32 ◼ ► I like, I like watchOS. It's not perfect, but it works pretty well. And, uh, yeah, I mean,
01:06:37 ◼ ► there's just not much, not much to say, John, I know you have a lot of thoughts about watchOS,
01:06:44 ◼ ► party watch faces will happen eventually. I hope so. I'm not so convinced, but I hope so.
01:06:50 ◼ ► Yeah, me too. I've won. One can hope. All right. The big one, macOS Ventura. I know John has
01:07:01 ◼ ► even though it was on two out of the three OS, as we've discussed already is the share iCloud
01:07:06 ◼ ► shared photo library. Right. And that was another, this is the thing that Apple does. And when it's a
01:07:11 ◼ ► service, uh, it makes sense. They roll out a feature across all the platforms. Cause honestly,
01:07:22 ◼ ► application from Apple on them. Of course, there's going to be some backend change. It should be on
01:07:26 ◼ ► all of them. And it is. And I think the feature has been a rousing success at least as far as my
01:07:31 ◼ ► library is concerned. It, you know, it was able to handle my library. It didn't destroy all my photos,
01:07:36 ◼ ► a duplicate feature, a little bit scary as we had many weeks of follow-up on that, but in general,
01:07:40 ◼ ► I've been able to, uh, you know, mitigate any problems there by backing up 30,000 photos,
01:07:45 ◼ ► not ideal, but you know, it could be worse. And it's a version 1.0 like for example, when,
01:07:49 ◼ ► and now when I see it find duplicates that aren't really duplicates, I would like to tell it,
01:07:52 ◼ ► no photos, those aren't duplicates, but there is no option to do that because it's a 1.0. So maybe
01:07:56 ◼ ► in the next version, they'll say, Oh, now if it's suggested duplicate and you believe it's not a
01:08:00 ◼ ► duplicate, you can click another button that says, don't tell me about this one again, cause it's not
01:08:04 ◼ ► actually a duplicate. Right. That's the type of feature you get into 1.1 and a two or whatever,
01:08:07 ◼ ► you know, however, we're versioning this thing. So I think that was a great new feature on the Mac.
01:08:12 ◼ ► The Mac is also an excellent example of the opposite of iOS. What happens on a platform
01:08:16 ◼ ► that doesn't sell a lot, that doesn't have a lot of people on that doesn't have the very best people
01:08:20 ◼ ► and the most money and the most resources you get MacOS, which even though it's incredibly mature,
01:08:25 ◼ ► simply does not have the, the Polish stability, reliability, just general fundamental goodness
01:08:34 ◼ ► that iOS or even iPadOS hell even watchOS have to give just a random example that everyone's been
01:08:39 ◼ ► talking about for years, but only because it's so glaring when those little notifications appear in
01:08:43 ◼ ► the upper right setting aside that we think the UI is bad and they have buttons that only appear on
01:08:47 ◼ ► hover. We're like three years into that redesign. And when you drag your, your pointer over there
01:08:52 ◼ ► with your mouse and you try to click one of the buttons, the buttons disappear out from under your
01:08:56 ◼ ► pointer. That's not a 1.0 problem. That's not something that was in the initial, you know,
01:09:01 ◼ ► 0.0 release of this thing. This thing has been out for years and no one can be bothered to fix it.
01:09:05 ◼ ► It's embarrassing every time I go and do that. Now everyone knows the trick, like, Oh, put your,
01:09:10 ◼ ► put your cursor into the menu bar first and sneak up on it from behind. And you'll be able to like,
01:09:19 ◼ ► that type of thing would not stand on iOS. iOS has that. They care more about it. They will make sure
01:09:24 ◼ ► it's more polished. If some of that slips out in a 1.0, they'll fix it. And, you know, within a
01:09:28 ◼ ► couple of weeks or a month, it's not like it's going to stay there for years. Parts of MacOS
01:09:32 ◼ ► are like that all over the place, setting aside the system settings redesign, which we think is
01:09:36 ◼ ► terrible. At least that is a 1.0 and in theory, they could fix it or whatever, but like,
01:09:40 ◼ ► there's just so much stuff that is unreliable, has bad UI or both. And it's not like we're begging
01:09:47 ◼ ► for tons and tons of new features to be added. I, again, I do like it when we have feature parody,
01:09:51 ◼ ► we got the catalyst version of messages. So we have the messages features parody finally.
01:09:56 ◼ ► But like it just needs to, it needs to be good in the way that any boring iOS release is good. And
01:10:03 ◼ ► they have not yet achieved that. What do we want out of MacOS? Just make, you know, stability,
01:10:08 ◼ ► speed and fix the UI that's bad. Yes. On top of that, we can add new features, but like,
01:10:12 ◼ ► let's achieve that first. And they don't, they're not getting it. Like setting aside my weird bug
01:10:16 ◼ ► with the windowing thing or whatever, that's just, who knows what that will end up being. That's,
01:10:19 ◼ ► that's not a big deal. I'm talking more about the things like the notifications or the fact
01:10:22 ◼ ► that some settings is so terrible and it's 1.0, right. Maybe you let that one stew a little bit
01:10:27 ◼ ► longer, like, or just any feature that's been in the OS forever, basic stuff, how networking work,
01:10:31 ◼ ► DNS resolution, like just features that have been there for literal decades, right. That just either
01:10:37 ◼ ► get flakier over time or don't get enough attention paid to them or, or just plain don't
01:10:42 ◼ ► get any better that the world moves on. And that still like the one that drives me nuts,
01:10:46 ◼ ► I've talked about this before. I have multiple Macs within this same room here. And when I want
01:10:50 ◼ ► to copy a file from my Mac to the one that I can practically reach with my arm, how long does it
01:10:55 ◼ ► take for me to mount that Mac as a shared thing in the finder, open it up, drag it in there? Why
01:11:00 ◼ ► can't I reliably make an alias to that and reopen it? How many different ways are there with aliases
01:11:04 ◼ ► and SIM links and internet addresses with SMB colon slash slash, which one of those should I use?
01:11:08 ◼ ► Which one will work reliably? Which one will stop working inexplicably? And why does it take so long
01:11:13 ◼ ► to do that? Airdrop is faster, but that's newer technology. But why does plain old file sharing
01:11:18 ◼ ► through the officially supported SMB file sharing? Why is that so slow? Why is it so bad? Why does it
01:11:22 ◼ ► have so many bugs? Why do things not work? Why can I not reliably make like an alias to a network
01:11:29 ◼ ► drive and have it mounted on launch because periodically that alias gets stale or goes bad
01:11:32 ◼ ► or dies or something like basic functionality, file sharing and mounting other Macs on your
01:11:38 ◼ ► desktop as a, as a volume should be so fast and so reliable and so brain dead simple. And it's not.
01:11:44 ◼ ► And that's, you know, that's what I want out of Mac OS. All that said, that's just my general
01:11:48 ◼ ► Mac OS rant because comparing to iOS. Ventura in the pantheon of recent Mac OS releases,
01:11:54 ◼ ► it's pretty okay. They didn't break many new things. Nothing terrible was in it. The stuff
01:12:00 ◼ ► they did added mostly kind of sort of works. The things that I'm complaining about are mostly
01:12:04 ◼ ► already there. So some settings is crap. We know that we, it did need to be redesigned and fixed.
01:12:14 ◼ ► weird phase where, I don't know. I was going to say where Apple can't decide what the UI is
01:12:20 ◼ ► supposed to look like. It seems like they have decided. It's just, I disagree with their decision.
01:12:23 ◼ ► Like the way controls look in the Swift UI Mac appearance, like the way buttons lurk, the way
01:12:28 ◼ ► like pop-up menus look and everything. I think it's bad. I think it's not good. I think they don't work
01:12:33 ◼ ► well. I think they don't look good. I think everything about them is bad. The worst than
01:12:38 ◼ ► the app kit controls that they replaced, but that's the direction Apple isn't going, is going
01:12:42 ◼ ► and that stuff can change over time. So we'll see if the course correct on that. Right. But
01:12:45 ◼ ► now we're in this weird place where if you look at what the UI looks like in system settings,
01:12:51 ◼ ► if that's the future of Mac UI, as opposed to the app kit controls that I use in my app,
01:13:00 ◼ ► Hopefully they will fix that. But right now we have half and half. Some of Apple's old apps
01:13:04 ◼ ► have app kit style or even carbon style controls in them. I mean, I know carbon isn't running
01:13:08 ◼ ► anymore in 64 bit, but anyway, they have controls that look like the Mac OS from years past. And
01:13:13 ◼ ► then other ones use Swift UI and have Swift UI-ish Mac controls that look and work differently,
01:13:18 ◼ ► usually worse. And they're all coexisting. And, you know, we'll see if they get that straightened
01:13:23 ◼ ► out, but I really do wish Mac OS could, they could find a way to give Mac OS the right kind
01:13:29 ◼ ► of attention. It's never going to get the attention that iOS gets. It doesn't sell as much,
01:13:32 ◼ ► doesn't deserve as much attention. I get that. But like the resources they do have, I wish they
01:13:36 ◼ ► would put them on the more boring stuff of just, you know, fixing notifications, making system
01:13:43 ◼ ► settings way better and making like basic things like file sharing that haven't been touched in
01:13:55 ◼ ► Yeah. I think where I want to get with Mac OS, you know, I mentioned that with iPad OS,
01:14:02 ◼ ► I want to get to a place where I'm not constantly wanting to use a different platform. What I want
01:14:09 ◼ ► to get to with Mac OS is I want to get to a point where when I hear that Apple has redesigned or
01:14:16 ◼ ► rewritten something in Mac OS, I want it to not feel like dread. Well-founded dread, not just like
01:14:22 ◼ ► pessimistic dread, but like, you know, proven by past experiences and continuing evidence that when
01:14:28 ◼ ► they redo it, it's not going to be better. And we would like it to be better. One important
01:14:33 ◼ ► difference is that when you look at all the other OSes that we're, that we're talking about today,
01:14:36 ◼ ► watch OS, iOS, iPad, OS, even, Hey, throw in TV OS. One of the critical differences here is that
01:14:43 ◼ ► those are all based on iOS. And to some degree, UI kit, Mac OS is older and is different. And
01:14:50 ◼ ► the APIs are very different. The behaviors in the system, the capabilities of the system are very,
01:14:54 ◼ ► very different. It shows, it shows when, when you see Apple's attention to the OSes and to their
01:15:02 ◼ ► features and to their designs, that even though many, I'd say most of the software quality issues
01:15:09 ◼ ► that, that plagued them, you know, a little while back, I would say most of those issues are behind
01:15:14 ◼ ► them. Again, like I was saying earlier, I think their software quality is in a really good place
01:15:19 ◼ ► overall these days. And that really is to their credit, like the number of platforms they have,
01:15:23 ◼ ► that's not easy. I really do give them credit. Their software quality is substantially better
01:15:28 ◼ ► now than it was, you know, five, 10 years ago. And it's definitely in a pretty good overall place in
01:15:34 ◼ ► absolute terms. However, obviously there's, there's going to be things that are not so good in every
01:15:46 ◼ ► it needs a lot of work in those areas. Again, quality wise, you know, I'm not having to reboot
01:15:51 ◼ ► stuff, stuff's not crashing, like that's, that stuff is, is mostly good. Things mostly work.
01:15:55 ◼ ► **Matt Stauffer** But reaching for a button and having it disappear as your cursor goes toward it
01:15:59 ◼ ► is just one level removed from crashing and losing data, right? Because this is like fundamental,
01:16:04 ◼ ► basic functions. When a button appears on the screen, I should be able to click it with my
01:16:08 ◼ ► mouse pointer. And that's just not the case for years on end. And, and, you know, surely everyone
01:16:16 ◼ ► **Brian Stauffer** And, you know, when you look at trying to write, for instance, like I've,
01:16:19 ◼ ► as I'm doing this overcast rewrite, I've, I've so far kept everything Mac and iOS neutral. So I have
01:16:27 ◼ ► this huge amount of code that's like, you know, instead of using UI color or NS color for color
01:16:33 ◼ ► computations, I have things like platform color and trying to use Swift UI color whenever possible,
01:16:37 ◼ ► although I can't use everything with it because it doesn't offer all the variables and stuff.
01:16:40 ◼ ► It can't tell you RGB values and whatever. Anyway, so I have all this like cross-platform
01:16:45 ◼ ► glue code in there. And every time I launch the Mac build of my test app, it looks ridiculous
01:16:53 ◼ ► because Swift UI, the idea is you can share a lot of components between the platforms. You can even
01:16:59 ◼ ► maybe share like some certain layouts and stuff. And then you see the way it renders like something
01:17:04 ◼ ► that looks and works totally fine when it's an iPad or iPad or iPhone mode, or even in catalyst
01:17:10 ◼ ► mode on the Mac, you run it in Mac native app kit mode. And it's a train wreck or things are just
01:17:14 ◼ ► randomly broken. You know, there's more bugs like Swift UI in the Mac is in a pretty rough place
01:17:20 ◼ ► still. And it makes it very difficult to use both. And it's not app kit mode to be clear. That's the
01:17:25 ◼ ► thing that's so refreshing about the Mac. App kits controls and you know, carbon went away and
01:17:30 ◼ ► everything about it was all folded into app kit. There was a time where Mac, the set of controls on
01:17:35 ◼ ► Macs, buttons, radio buttons, check boxes, pop up, everything, scrolling views, all those controls,
01:17:41 ◼ ► those all existed, had tons of features, looked really good and were a hundred percent consistent.
01:17:47 ◼ ► And that period is over because now here comes the Swift UI version, which they're different. And
01:17:51 ◼ ► sometimes I feel like they're different because they, you know, they're different with reason.
01:17:54 ◼ ► They like someone has decided they think this is better, but they're just plain different. If,
01:17:59 ◼ ► if you know, running a Swift UI app in Mac mode used all app kit controls, it would probably still
01:18:05 ◼ ► be weird to get it to work right. You know, you'd have to pay some attention to it, but at least it
01:18:09 ◼ ► would be consistent, but it's not like that. Swift UI's Mac controls are kind of like modified iPad
01:18:16 ◼ ► OS controls kind of, sort of, but occasionally an actual app kit control will peek its head out and
01:18:21 ◼ ► it doesn't make for apps that, that look consistent, that work consistently. And again, I think the app
01:18:26 ◼ ► kit controls universally were better. They looked better, worked better, were easier to use, had
01:18:31 ◼ ► more features, were more obvious, more intuitive. They were just better. And maybe, you know, again,
01:18:35 ◼ ► Swift UI is young, maybe they'll fix it or whatever, but I feel like the people who are
01:18:38 ◼ ► designing the Mac look and feel for Swift UI don't understand what makes good Mac controls. It's kind
01:18:46 ◼ ► of like iOS 7 all over again, or it's like they have, they have this aesthetic idea only at least
01:18:50 ◼ ► iOS 7 look kind of cool. The Mac ones don't, they don't even look good and they don't have a lot of
01:18:54 ◼ ► features and they don't work well. And I think they're fundamentally barking up the wrong tree
01:18:58 ◼ ► when they think a pop-up menu should be some text with a V and an upside down V next to it.
01:19:04 ◼ ► Yeah. And I think that's like overall what I want, you know, the, the Swift, the Swift UI
01:19:10 ◼ ► fication of system settings and the rewrite of system settings on, on venture, obviously you
01:19:14 ◼ ► already mentioned how it's garbage and it is, and system settings over the last year has not gotten
01:19:18 ◼ ► any better. It is still, it still feels like a really rough beta. It doesn't even feel like a
01:19:23 ◼ ► 1.0. It feels like a 0.8 or something like it feels like a rough beta and there should be still
01:19:27 ◼ ► a lot more iteration on both the design and the bugginess of it, but it kind of reflects the,
01:19:34 ◼ ► the general state of when Apple touches Mac OS, especially in the UI area, the results always
01:19:40 ◼ ► seem really half-assed. Like it doesn't seem like this is a nice, you know, unified design between
01:19:46 ◼ ► iPad OS and iOS and the Mac. No, it feels like iPad OS and iOS have their cool, nice design.
01:19:52 ◼ ► And the Mac is a half-assed clone of it or a half-assed re-implementation of it. That's how it
01:19:57 ◼ ► feels. We can quibble about design choices and we do, and we will, but I want the Mac to stop
01:20:05 ◼ ► feeling like every time they touch it, they do a really half-assed job of whatever they were trying
01:20:08 ◼ ► to do. And that is, I don't think Apple is, Apple has not shown that they have that level of rigor
01:20:15 ◼ ► and care about the Mac anymore software wise. Now hardware wise, it's been amazing recently with all
01:20:20 ◼ ► the Apple Silicon stuff, but software wise, Mac OS is mostly coasting on what was established a very
01:20:26 ◼ ► long time ago and the stuff they have changed, the stuff they have made new in recent years about
01:20:32 ◼ ► Mac OS, especially design wise, has been pretty shaky at best and really feels very half-assed at
01:20:38 ◼ ► worst. They're chipping away at that other stuff, like the old, the old, the old stuff like that,
01:20:43 ◼ ► that old stuff, granted it was old, but A, it was internally consistent and B, it was really good.
01:20:48 ◼ ► Like the same way we say we don't think there's a lot of people inside Apple who know how to make a
01:20:51 ◼ ► good Mac app, I'm not sure how many people are inside Apple who have ideas that I agree with
01:20:57 ◼ ► about how to make a good Mac user interface. Like again, the basics, controls, buttons, windows,
01:21:02 ◼ ► that whole nine yards, because every time they touch an area, they take an app kit looking thing
01:21:07 ◼ ► from decades ago that looked old and creaky, but nevertheless had internally consistent and very
01:21:11 ◼ ► good controls and they replace it with something like system settings. Like notifications got
01:21:15 ◼ ► replaced with a worse, an increasingly worse version of what was previously there. System
01:21:19 ◼ ► settings got replaced with, granted the old one was all old and creaky and needed to be expanded,
01:21:24 ◼ ► but all those controls, all those beautiful buttons and all those beautiful hand laid out
01:21:30 ◼ ► things got replaced with just this boiler plate thing that looks worse than a webpage. And it's
01:21:37 ◼ ► creaky parts of the OS and replace them with that because you're making them worse. They look worse,
01:21:41 ◼ ► they feel worse, they are fundamentally worse. And they're buggy by the way with all the bugs.
01:21:45 ◼ ► It's so frustrating. Yeah, they work worse. Yeah. So it's kind of like, I think about that with my
01:21:51 ◼ ► own little applications, the parts I enjoy doing the little app kit things, the programming model
01:21:55 ◼ ► is old and janky, but like the result is a window, like a settings window that looks to me like a
01:22:00 ◼ ► settings window in a Mac application. I look at it and I say, that's a Mac settings. And other
01:22:05 ◼ ► apps are like that, Safari or other good Apple apps, they have Mac looking UIs, but some of them
01:22:11 ◼ ► don't. Some of them have weird, you would think, Oh, is this a catalyst app? And I'd be like, no,
01:22:16 ◼ ► that's 100% native Swift UI, Mac OS only app. You just think it's a catalyst app because you look at
01:22:22 ◼ ► those controls and think those don't look like Mac controls, but that's supposedly the future of Mac
01:22:26 ◼ ► controls. I don't know. I'm very frustrated with it. Like, I mean, it gets it done saying that
01:22:34 ◼ ► each new release is not an improvement on the old. It is just a replacement of the old with like a
01:22:40 ◼ ► creaky 1.0 of the new. And I don't like the new. In the defense of Mac OS though, I mean, obviously
01:22:46 ◼ ► YouTube both love it as well, but on a positive note for all of Apple's platforms as they exist
01:22:52 ◼ ► today and who knows what will exist in a week, but for all of Apple's platforms as they exist today,
01:22:58 ◼ ► for me, and I suspect for you too, Mac OS is the one where I am most at home. It is the one where
01:23:03 ◼ ► I feel most comfortable. It is the one where it gets in the way the least. Now I'm not saying
01:23:08 ◼ ► that's true for everyone. In fact, I would argue for a lot of people, especially not olds like us,
01:23:12 ◼ ► it's probably either iPad OS or iOS, but for me as a official old, I love sitting at my Mac.
01:23:21 ◼ ► it's that we're programmers, we're computer nerds, we're people who know and understand Unix stuff.
01:23:25 ◼ ► Like that's not true of the general public. That's why we feel the most comfortable there. It's also
01:23:29 ◼ ► why other people feel the most comfortable on their phones and iPads. Right? And so I don't
01:23:33 ◼ ► think it's like an age thing of like, because it's, you know, older, like we want something
01:23:37 ◼ ► that's older or whatever, like iOS is pretty darn old at this point, too. It's just that Mac is the
01:23:41 ◼ ► system, Mac OS is the system where you have the most freedom. It has a command line. It has,
01:23:46 ◼ ► it doesn't constrain us on what we can do. You can have multiple windows or the basic windowing
01:23:49 ◼ ► system you can move around. You can have always visible controls. You can put icons in your menu
01:23:53 ◼ ► bar, like all sorts of things that maybe the modern Apple wouldn't do, but that are here for
01:23:57 ◼ ► quote unquote legacy reasons. Mac OS is the platform that you use to develop for all of other
01:24:02 ◼ ► Apple's other platforms. Even, you know, I know you can, you know, develop on the iOS apps on the
01:24:07 ◼ ► iPad now or whatever, but I don't think many people would choose to do that willingly just because you
01:24:11 ◼ ► have so much more flexibility in a development environment and development tools and all that
01:24:16 ◼ ► stuff if you develop on a Mac. So I think that's why we like it. I said, it does mean that it is
01:24:22 ◼ ► narrow interest. It does mean that we are on the fringe because we're, you know, tech nerds who are
01:24:27 ◼ ► into the things that the Mac can do better, but it's not because we're old or there's something
01:24:33 ◼ ► old fashioned about the Mac. It is just simply the most powerful and flexible platform Apple has.
01:24:37 ◼ ► That's fair. I was mostly making fun of myself and trying to be silly, but you are completely correct
01:24:43 ◼ ► as always. And so I agree with you, but I don't know, I feel so much more at home and so much more
01:24:51 ◼ ► free on a Mac than I do on anything else. And there is something amazing about having an iPad
01:24:57 ◼ ► especially if you don't have it in the keyboard case, which I love, or the smart fancy magic
01:25:03 ◼ ► whatever keyboard. I know we went through what means what like a couple months ago and I always
01:25:06 ◼ ► forget, but when you have an iPad and that thin little sliver of a device with, you know, this
01:25:11 ◼ ► beautiful screen and optionally a pencil and you can be in the middle of anywhere because it has a
01:25:16 ◼ ► cellular modem, not to get Marco and I started, but you can be anywhere and do things on the internet.
01:25:21 ◼ ► And if you want to add a keyboard, you can, but you don't have to like, it is amazing. And I love
01:25:26 ◼ ► the iPad for that. And I love that I have the whole of human knowledge in my freaking pocket
01:25:32 ◼ ► with my iPhone. And I can be fast on the iPad. I can be fast on the iPhone, but never do I feel
01:25:39 ◼ ► as unconstrained. Is that a word? You know what I mean? I never feel more free than I do on the Mac.
01:25:46 ◼ ► And I feel that way even on the 13 inch MacBook Pro screen in and of itself, which honestly is way
01:25:51 ◼ ► too small for any serious use, but you know what? It still works. I feel extremely that way when I
01:25:57 ◼ ► have my two 5K screens. You know, I'm sure this is the same for you guys and your ridiculously
01:26:03 ◼ ► expensive monitors. It's just, I feel so free and I feel like I can get things done so much faster.
01:26:10 ◼ ► And that's what I love so much about the Mac. And just to very quickly pick out one thing on this,
01:26:17 ◼ ► honestly, mostly unimpressive marketing page, continuity camera. If you just bought an Apple
01:26:22 ◼ ► monitor that maybe has a piss poor camera on it, continuity camera is a pretty nice feature,
01:26:27 ◼ ► especially when you hoard old iPhones. So I have, I don't use the like hub features of the studio
01:26:35 ◼ ► display for anything except a USB-C to lightning cable that's plugged into my last year's iPhone
01:26:42 ◼ ► that sits on top of my studio display 24/7. And every once in a while, it'll take me like flipping
01:26:48 ◼ ► to a different camera and then flipping back to the continuity camera to get it to work.
01:26:52 ◼ ► But once I do that, it looks great. It works flawlessly. It is amazing. And I know that for
01:26:58 ◼ ► you guys, you don't have any camera to worry about onboard the screen. And I know you've had to add
01:27:03 ◼ ► your own, but I really love if you're one of those seven idiots that keeps their old phones like I do,
01:27:09 ◼ ► this is an incredibly useful feature that I use several times a month as I'm having chats with
01:27:14 ◼ ► friends that are overseas and so on. And I really have enjoyed continuity, continuity camera quite a lot.
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01:29:28 ◼ ► eating well for sponsoring our show. So is there anything else going on this week or should we just
01:29:36 ◼ ► end here? Let me do a little speed run of the the last minute rumor slash preview things just because
01:29:42 ◼ ► it's mostly obvious stuff and we can get to it quickly. Headset we've been talking about it
01:29:48 ◼ ► forever. People keep talking more and more about it. A couple things on that. One as pointed out
01:29:52 ◼ ► I think on the talk show recently or maybe was on dithering I forget. One of the early tales of like
01:29:57 ◼ ► whether Apple is going to actually release something that has been heavily rumored is as
01:30:01 ◼ ► the date approaches if there's no if you don't see any reports of a denial saying actually everyone
01:30:08 ◼ ► thought this thing was going to come out at WWC but rumor has it that actually it's not now.
01:30:13 ◼ ► That hasn't happened. Whether or not Apple strategically leaks those to tamp down expectations
01:30:19 ◼ ► so people don't go to a WWC keynote expecting them to release the Apple car and then everyone's all
01:30:24 ◼ ► disappointed because they didn't release the car and afterwards every single story is about there
01:30:27 ◼ ► was no car there was no car. That's the kind of time when it would behoove Apple to strategically
01:30:32 ◼ ► leak the information that there's not going to be a car this time. Well they haven't done that with
01:30:37 ◼ ► the headset. So far one week out there is no story that says everyone's expecting the headset but it
01:30:43 ◼ ► turns out Apple is not going to reveal it. This is setting aside of when they're going to ship it or
01:30:46 ◼ ► when it will be available or anything else like that. Everyone thinks the headset is coming and
01:30:51 ◼ ► there hasn't been no sort of rumored denial. Adding more support to it. Apple has apparently invited
01:30:57 ◼ ► a bunch of what this article phrases as XR media outlets which is like you know AR/VR whatever.
01:31:04 ◼ ► These are websites publications that are focused on AR/VR that have previously not been invited
01:31:10 ◼ ► to Apple keynotes. So press from these websites like Upload VR and what is this one called
01:31:16 ◼ ► roadtovr.com. These people have previously not gotten press invites and this time they did.
01:31:23 ◼ ► Why would these people get press invite now? I wonder. Maybe it's because Apple is going to
01:31:30 ◼ ► reveal the headset. Steve Trouton Smith pointed out today that the OS behind this which we've known
01:31:35 ◼ ► has been you know rumored to be called reality OS whatever the trademark is. We had an item in the
01:31:41 ◼ ► show so we didn't get to it before it was like XR OS XR OS Pro with XR being lowercase or whatever.
01:31:46 ◼ ► Steve Trouton Smith says it's such an open secret that they didn't even bother scrubbing the most
01:31:51 ◼ ► recent references they left in their open source linker and you can put a link to GitHub where you
01:32:03 ◼ ► There the final two Enums are reality OS and reality simulator. Undisguised in GitHub in
01:32:10 ◼ ► parts like that's the type of stuff that they would in past years try to remove from their betas
01:32:15 ◼ ► try to remove from their open source but it's like it's like look W2C is next week. Why even
01:32:20 ◼ ► bother hiding it? Yes the thing was internally called reality OS the Enums are probably going
01:32:25 ◼ ► to be reality OS that's what the symbols would be maybe the branding will be XR OS or whatever.
01:32:29 ◼ ► By the way can we just I hope it's reality OS because that's such a better name than XR OS.
01:32:34 ◼ ► Yeah like they filed a bunch of trademarks for XR OS or XR OS Pro those may just be protective
01:32:39 ◼ ► trademarks or whatever. The word reality when it comes to 3D computer graphics stuff has a long
01:32:46 ◼ ► history with SGI and also I think maybe with MIPS and N64 which are also connected to SGI.
01:32:56 ◼ ► Yeah no no I'm not saying that's why they can't use it I'm saying that's why it is a fitting word
01:32:59 ◼ ► because it has kind of a storied history in the world of 3D or whatever but I'm not sure the word
01:33:04 ◼ ► reality means anything to people of course XR doesn't mean anything to regular people because
01:33:10 ◼ ► they don't know the X is a placeholder for A and VR as we just discussed with these media outlets.
01:33:14 ◼ ► In the end the brain doesn't matter that much how many people know what the name of the OS is on
01:33:18 ◼ ► their iPad or on their iPhone and the fact they change names is just is another example of Apple's
01:33:24 ◼ ► platform naming they're stuck on this lowercase letters with capital OS which I've never really
01:33:30 ◼ ► liked it was fine for iOS but then when they did Mac OS all lowercase anyway whatever the point is
01:33:34 ◼ ► the mounting evidence that Apple will reveal the headset to WWC is now just it's like as close to
01:33:42 ◼ ► 100% as you can ever get with that actual confirmation. So that's going to happen probably
01:33:48 ◼ ► we'll talk more about it next week the other thing related to the headset which is that the the people
01:33:53 ◼ ► who can't keep secrets are now demonstrating they can't keep secrets and can't contain themselves
01:33:59 ◼ ► by leaving subtle hints or rumors or stories about game developers being buddy buddy with
01:34:06 ◼ ► appy so with Apple so Hideo Kojima the maker of the Metal Gear series maker of Death Stranding
01:34:12 ◼ ► very famous you know creator of video games that you that many people know and love has been seen
01:34:18 ◼ ► around Apple campus supposedly there's been rumors that they're working with Apple or whatever
01:34:30 ◼ ► this morning I guess a single Apple emoji that was the entire tweet yeah that's that was like
01:34:39 ◼ ► not subtle that's the thing about being a famous game developer like Apple can't fire them because
01:34:44 ◼ ► they don't work for Apple whatever deal they have with Apple is too far along to be canned
01:34:48 ◼ ► although Steve Jobs would kick somebody out of the keynote if they pissed him off enough
01:34:51 ◼ ► but he's not around anymore and what are you going to do what are you going to say oh now
01:34:55 ◼ ► we're not going to work with Hideo Kojima because he leaked something or because he was spotted at
01:34:59 ◼ ► a Starbucks near Apple or whatever we've talked a lot about like what are they going to try to
01:35:04 ◼ ► pitch the headset for and the thing that headsets are most well known for in the world right now is
01:35:09 ◼ ► games despite Facebook trying to make it for doing meetings and stuff like that VR games have been a
01:35:13 ◼ ► thing for many many years the big gaming company Oculus was made as a gaming headset and you know
01:35:18 ◼ ► anyway so we've wondered what Apple is going to do there this smoke around the you know famous game
01:35:24 ◼ ► luminaries orbiting this makes it think that Apple will have some portion of the keynote where they
01:35:28 ◼ ► will try desperately to convince you that in addition to all the other wonderful things that
01:35:33 ◼ ► their headset does it's a great platform for gaming and here are some famous game people to
01:35:36 ◼ ► let you know that their famous games are going to be on this new platform that's better than nothing
01:35:42 ◼ ► on the last episode I was saying how Apple needs to pay people money to bring their games to their
01:35:46 ◼ ► platform the the thing is you have to be it's all about consistency you have to do that you have to
01:35:52 ◼ ► do it consistently on an ongoing basis you can't just do the thing that Apple has always done which
01:35:56 ◼ ► is one big famous person or game shows their big famous their big famous product from three years
01:36:03 ◼ ► ago runs really well on a Mac I know everyone who cares about game has already played it maybe you
01:36:08 ◼ ► even already played it in VR but now that three-year-old game that you already played in VR
01:36:12 ◼ ► is available on the Apple headset and that's it right or maybe two other games and like just
01:36:18 ◼ ► compare that to what Microsoft had to do with the Xbox they had to consistently over years and years
01:36:23 ◼ ► and years court game developers pay game developers money acquire game developers be really dedicated
01:36:28 ◼ ► to the production of games in a kind of in the way that Apple has been trying to do with Apple TV plus
01:36:34 ◼ ► television shows where I feel like they've have actually put their money where their mouth is and
01:36:37 ◼ ► paid to have lots of television shows produced and when some of them didn't turn out that well they
01:36:41 ◼ ► didn't give up and say oh well we'll try again another decade no they made more shows with more
01:36:45 ◼ ► people and they found the people who knew how to make TV shows and they found stars who are good in
01:36:48 ◼ ► television and writers who like that's what they would have to do with games so anyway the rumors
01:36:53 ◼ ► about these famous people orbiting around Apple makes me think that there will be a significant
01:36:58 ◼ ► game portion of the headset thing where they will show some famous games and some famous game makers
01:37:02 ◼ ► running on the headset but that by no means is sufficient to make this a viable gaming platform
01:37:08 ◼ ► unless Apple actually follows through for the first time in their entire history when it comes
01:37:12 ◼ ► to games so fingers crossed in that but headset seems like it's going to be there nobody disagrees
01:37:18 ◼ ► one week out if at this point if it's not there if there's no rumors in the next week and the headset
01:37:24 ◼ ► isn't there I think people people are just going to be sad and mopey walking away from that screen so
01:37:32 ◼ ► and you know we touched a little bit last week everyone is talking about new AI capabilities
01:37:39 ◼ ► everyone every large tech company is investing massively in these new AI techniques large
01:37:45 ◼ ► language model based things like their generation like there's so much in these new AI techniques
01:37:52 ◼ ► and abilities that we've gotten in the last you know year basically in the in the industry
01:37:55 ◼ ► that we're investing in super heavily in every other company and Apple it seems like is not
01:38:01 ◼ ► probably ready to show anything in that area yet I hope they're investing heavily in it
01:38:06 ◼ ► I hope they realize how important it is I hope they fix Siri but it seems like none of that is
01:38:12 ◼ ► probably on the table for this this year's W2C and this year's platforms so in the absence of that
01:38:18 ◼ ► I feel like we need something else that's really nice can you imagine if they didn't have the
01:38:23 ◼ ► headset this year how angry the press would be after an entire keynote where they don't mention
01:38:27 ◼ ► AI once yeah right and I mean and as I said last time I'm pretty sure they're gonna find some
01:38:33 ◼ ► little token things that they can call AI that they would have previously called ml or Siri
01:38:38 ◼ ► anything that you previously called ml just swap the letters out normal note yeah exactly but like
01:38:42 ◼ ► you know I feel like they they need to have something to and I know this is not why these
01:38:47 ◼ ► things are shipping there but like they need to have something to distract the press from their
01:38:52 ◼ ► lack of AI you know announcements that are that's likely I mean and it's not just a distraction it's
01:38:57 ◼ ► a new platform it's a big deal like it's not like this is a diversion don't look over there it's just
01:39:01 ◼ ► a happy accident that they have this massive new product that's been rumored for years that unlike
01:39:05 ◼ ► the car is actually going to be revealed to the public and that will really do a good job of
01:39:12 ◼ ► tamping down the AI angst which will still exist by the way they will get asked about it but you
01:39:16 ◼ ► know not as much yeah and I really I have high hopes for this platform because I mean first of
01:39:23 ◼ ► all look I like Apple I don't want them to lose you know like I want I don't want them to have a flop
01:39:27 ◼ ► but also just as a technologist and as a developer this is really baffling to me why this thing would
01:39:34 ◼ ► be so amazing and you know I'd like you know in my house my son has the the Facebook quest too
01:39:41 ◼ ► and it's it's a totally fine product it's a little getting a little long in the tooth I know
01:40:01 ◼ ► low resolution screens and it is you know it's uncomfortable on me you know I the optics
01:40:09 ◼ ► aren't great for my eyes and how often does it get used how often does it get used in your house
01:40:13 ◼ ► compared to like the plain old switch or the iPad well it depends well it kind of I know what you're
01:40:18 ◼ ► getting at because it goes month at a time without being used but it is currently there's this
01:40:23 ◼ ► adorable game called gorilla tag that my kid is super into and it basically seems as far as I can
01:40:28 ◼ ► tell like just like a giant playground that's mostly other kids that are his age group just
01:40:32 ◼ ► like running around yelling and jumping on stuff and it's actually ingenious because you know one
01:40:37 ◼ ► of the big problems with VR games is like if you have to move your legs in the game you're going to
01:40:41 ◼ ► walk into walls and stuff in real life and so in this game they simulate all the kids are basically
01:40:47 ◼ ► simulated as gorillas with no legs so they walk they walk on their arms and so he's up there like
01:40:54 ◼ ► swinging his he's getting the most buff shoulders for a kid for an 11 year old because he's he's
01:41:00 ◼ ► like swinging his arms moving around it's it's so funny and it seems to be only like children who
01:41:06 ◼ ► play this game like I like you can hear over the voice chat when you're in the room you hear the
01:41:09 ◼ ► other kids and like there's no older kids or adults playing this game like it's all children
01:41:14 ◼ ► and it's so adorable and it seems like there's no like you know combat or you know anything like
01:41:18 ◼ ► that it just seems like a nice you know wholesome thing anyway so right now it's getting used a lot
01:41:28 ◼ ► really use it very comfortably for a very long time it is not good for my eyes I do get a little
01:41:33 ◼ ► bit motion sick with it and I'm not usually a motion sick sensitive person like so that's
01:41:37 ◼ ► that's saying a lot and I don't find the game experiences that compelling on it yet and maybe
01:41:42 ◼ ► that's because I'm not a gamer much and you know maybe I'm just missing stuff but I haven't found
01:41:45 ◼ ► it that compelling and you know using using the hand controllers is clunky and stuff like that and
01:41:50 ◼ ► so when I hear about the Apple headset rumors and from people who know more about this than I do
01:41:57 ◼ ► you know things like the hand tracking the eye tracking the foveated rendering with higher
01:42:01 ◼ ► resolution displays all this stuff that is the that it's pretty heavily rumored to have
01:42:06 ◼ ► sounds like it is going to be substantially better than what I have tried so far which is this dumb
01:42:12 ◼ ► thing it should be like quadruple the price yeah at least quadruple if not more but you know it
01:42:18 ◼ ► sound it sounds like what we're what Apple is going to release here or at least unveil here
01:42:23 ◼ ► is not just a small step above what we've seen but a big step above what we've seen and that has me
01:42:30 ◼ ► excited because while the existing products have not been compelling for me again I don't believe
01:42:35 ◼ ► Apple would ship something if it wasn't if they didn't really believe it was compelling and I can't
01:42:40 ◼ ► imagine you know a high level Apple person using a Quest 2 and be like yeah this is pretty good
01:42:45 ◼ ► let's just let's just match this no that's that that would never happen I guarantee you the Apple
01:42:51 ◼ ► attitude towards towards those products would be about as positive as you know when Steve Jobs had
01:42:55 ◼ ► to demo that Motorola rocker phone like it would it would be you know not not glowing I mean there
01:43:01 ◼ ► are higher end things in the quest the quest is fairly low and there are higher end like PC gaming
01:43:06 ◼ ► VR headsets and Apple's probably going to basically match them maybe be a little bit better the
01:43:10 ◼ ► software story may be better it'll probably be more more refined more you know higher performance
01:43:14 ◼ ► lower latency hopefully but it's not going to be 10 times better than any existing headset the
01:43:19 ◼ ► question is like how much does the how much is Apple able to elevate it the way it usually does
01:43:23 ◼ ► by you know just making the the software better having a more compelling story about use cases
01:43:29 ◼ ► and the other thing I'm really interested about it by the reveal of this is it's the most recent test
01:43:35 ◼ ► of Apple's hardware design you know with respect to the things that we have complained about in the
01:43:43 ◼ ► past about their obsession with simplicity and removing ports and you know all that type of thing
01:43:48 ◼ ► like designing it to be a beautiful object a beautiful featureless object with adhering to
01:43:56 ◼ ► certain aesthetic principles rather than making it usable rather than recognizing what do people
01:44:01 ◼ ► want to use this for and it's it comes to a head particularly on devices that you wear the watch
01:44:07 ◼ ► did a pretty good job of this I think and that the watch does not have any sharp things that shove
01:44:14 ◼ ► that poke into your wrist right they it's it generally fits on your body and the watch straps
01:44:19 ◼ ► fit on your body in a way that recognizes the size and shape of human wrists and what they're
01:44:24 ◼ ► made out of like I think it does an okay job but I do worry a lot about this headset I want what
01:44:30 ◼ ► I'm looking at is like what does what does the hardware look like because I look at you know
01:44:35 ◼ ► let's look at the the AirPods Max the big over-ear headphones which I think have a lot of problems
01:44:40 ◼ ► yeah those look really nice but ergonomically there's some some fairly obvious fumbles one of
01:44:46 ◼ ► the biggest ones is the ear cups have metal on them which looks and feels great in premium but
01:44:51 ◼ ► it's heavy and this is the type of trade-off I'm looking to see when when Apple comes to a decision
01:44:56 ◼ ► like that well we could make the ear cup things out of metal and they'll be gorgeous and feel
01:45:03 ◼ ► really good and be very during durable and sturdy but also they'll be really heavy and that could be
01:45:08 ◼ ► wearing over time what should we choose should we make them lightweight but have it be not quite as
01:45:13 ◼ ► premium looking or should we just go for the thing that looks and feels the best and not worry about
01:45:17 ◼ ► the weight and I think they made the wrong call on the AirPods Max and for a headset that type of
01:45:21 ◼ ► thing is paramount that also gets back to the whole you know compute module battery pack thing
01:45:26 ◼ ► on your belt I think that would be the right decision rather than trying to build it into
01:45:30 ◼ ► a thing that goes in your face they recognize that after testing this thing for however many years
01:45:34 ◼ ► having lots of weight on your face doesn't feel good so let's get that weight away and so when
01:45:40 ◼ ► I'm looking at this thing they want people to strap on their face what I want to see is I would
01:45:44 ◼ ► you know again the ideal is like if I have to put it on my face it better be the oxo good grips of
01:45:49 ◼ ► headsets I do not want any part of this thing to have been designed to look nice to look symmetrical
01:45:55 ◼ ► to look like anime from the 90s I don't want it I want nothing about this to be like I care about
01:46:01 ◼ ► how I look I want first and foremost the highest priority to be comfortable on people's faces
01:46:06 ◼ ► breathable light no places that pinch you good visibility in the ways that you want to have
01:46:11 ◼ ► visible like just everything about it doesn't make you sweaty has has an easy way to put in
01:46:17 ◼ ► the prescription lens thingies they're going to support like just because you know the watch you
01:46:22 ◼ ► wear but it's your wrist is fairly you know far away from the the sensitive organs that do all
01:46:28 ◼ ► your sensing like your nose and your mouth and your eyes and your ears right this thing is on
01:46:31 ◼ ► it's not just on your head it's on your face and so this is a a perfect crucible for apple's worse
01:46:38 ◼ ► predilections of like we want it to be a beautiful symmetrical solid with no features on it made of
01:46:43 ◼ ► sharp aluminum and really heavy and like all that and on the other side is yeah but I have this
01:46:47 ◼ ► thing on my head while we've been testing for the past three years and it sucks when it's like that
01:46:51 ◼ ► so that is the number one thing I'm looking forward to is when they reveal this headset
01:46:56 ◼ ► I obviously I'm not gonna be able to tell by looking at it but like when they reveal this
01:46:58 ◼ ► headset does it look like something that was designed to look beautiful or does it look like
01:47:03 ◼ ► something that was designed to be comfortable ideally you do both like obviously the apple
01:47:06 ◼ ► ideal is oh it looks beautiful and it's also comfortable and it's breathable and you don't
01:47:11 ◼ ► get sweaty and and and and you don't get motion sick because we made the latency low like that's
01:47:15 ◼ ► that's the ideal but in any design there are trade-offs and historically especially recently
01:47:20 ◼ ► historically apple has made poor trade-offs when it came to those stitches they reverse a lot of
01:47:25 ◼ ► them on the laptop so kudos so they're going in the right direction but the headset team like
01:47:30 ◼ ► there's nothing that the laptop team did that I can say and that will transfer directly to the
01:47:33 ◼ ► headset because they'll they'll you know learn from like this is totally separate like totally
01:47:37 ◼ ► separate development lines so totally separate everything so that is the thing that I'm most
01:47:42 ◼ ► looking forward to only because I don't believe the Mac Pro is going to be released but you know
01:47:47 ◼ ► setting aside the Mac Pro which seems like it's not going to happen speaking of rumors of things
01:47:51 ◼ ► that aren't going to happen you know but we did get the rumor that's not going to happen and that
01:47:54 ◼ ► hasn't shifted so I'm I want to see what this headset says about how apple is thinking about
01:48:01 ◼ ► designing things that literally go on people's faces because that will give us a good idea of
01:48:07 ◼ ► you know how much the company has learned over the years all right and and for me personally like I
01:48:13 ◼ ► if Marco gets motion sick with it I will get massively much I get motion sick so easily so
01:48:17 ◼ ► this is probably not going to be a product for me it doesn't mean I'm not interested in it I'm
01:48:21 ◼ ► interested in it and I think apple should make it and do it and I look forward to the day when when
01:48:25 ◼ ► it gets to the level where I can use it without getting sick but I have no illusions that that
01:48:29 ◼ ► day is going to be you know next Monday and that's fine like I'm I'm not in the market for it I just
01:48:35 ◼ ► that's why I'm looking at from a more academic perspective what does this product say about
01:48:39 ◼ ► how apple designs things I would expect apple to be pretty good at things like avoiding motion
01:48:47 ◼ ► sickness you know when you when you look at the software stacks of of how to ensure like really
01:48:52 ◼ ► high performance for what is effectively a giant game environment all the time even like even if
01:48:56 ◼ ► you're not playing a game in it it's basically a game a game engine running you know for a lot of
01:49:02 ◼ ► this stuff to work and apple is actually pretty good at the the level of like top to bottom
01:49:10 ◼ ► hardware software integration to be able to do things like super low latency input or output you
01:49:17 ◼ ► know yeah I mean but I'm sure they're gonna do really well but I'm not sure technology is there
01:49:22 ◼ ► yet to get this to the level where someone like me can wear without getting motion sick I mean and no
01:49:27 ◼ ► there's not a single headset that exists today that people say and don't worry no one will ever
01:49:32 ◼ ► get motion sick it's just a question of who and by how much and unfortunately I'm at the far end of
01:49:37 ◼ ► that spectrum so I think apple will do a good job because they do tightly control the hardware but I
01:49:41 ◼ ► just I'm not at this point I don't think it's technologically possible to make a consumer
01:49:47 ◼ ► headset that does not cause people like me to get motion sick and that's not apple's fault and I'm
01:49:52 ◼ ► not saying they should wait until it is it's just it's just a fact of life well I mean but it's also
01:49:57 ◼ ► apple's style to wait until they can do something that makes effectively no one motion sick and then
01:50:04 ◼ ► release a product and only do things that would not make people motion say like that I can totally see
01:50:08 ◼ ► them doing that and they and you know we're looking at obviously much higher component costs than this
01:50:14 ◼ ► we're looking at a much higher power envelope and much higher end chips powering it so maybe it's
01:50:19 ◼ ► possible like maybe they have achieved that I can't imagine apple would release something that
01:50:23 ◼ ► a large portion of the population would get motion sick from no it'll be it'll be small but I think
01:50:29 ◼ ► it could push up against double digits because I feel like that's the true of the existing high-end
01:50:34 ◼ ► headsets it also depends on the software obviously this is another thing you know if you've used my
01:50:37 ◼ ► headsets that like the actual software that's running on them like the game friends make has
01:50:42 ◼ ► a huge influence over whether you're getting motion sick so it's not just the hardware and
01:50:46 ◼ ► that is another area where I hope apple would do a good job in it like you know whatever their os is
01:50:50 ◼ ► or however apps work because that you know it's apple's filled with regular people who are
01:50:55 ◼ ► employees and some percentage of the apple employees who worked on this headset are just
01:50:58 ◼ ► as susceptible motion sickness as I am so they know they know how it breaks down even if it's
01:51:02 ◼ ► like oh they don't let the public use it they don't know there's enough people working on this that
01:51:06 ◼ ► apple kind of knows like which things are causing the most motion sickness like is this the setting
01:51:11 ◼ ► screens and xros is that causing motion sickness what can we do to fix it like they've had years
01:51:16 ◼ ► to work on this so I think they're going to do the best they can I just again I'm not willing to
01:51:20 ◼ ► believe the technology has got to the point where um I'm going to be in the fold eventually it will
01:51:25 ◼ ► right but maybe not this year but that's fine but you know I just I just hope they do a good job
01:51:30 ◼ ► that's why I hope they do a good job with the fundamentals of the physical reality of it
01:51:33 ◼ ► because I think there'll be many years before the physical reality becomes actual little glasses
01:51:37 ◼ ► and so if they get the fundamentals of the headset right kind of like they got the fundamental
01:51:40 ◼ ► ergonomics of the laptop right with the power book keyboard pushed up pointing device down
01:51:45 ◼ ► in the middle in the center uh it took them a few tries with their portal quote-unquote portable
01:51:50 ◼ ► computers but that fundamental design was good and better than everything it became before it
01:51:55 ◼ ► and has lasted and has stood the test of time touch bar notwithstanding you know I'm very
01:52:01 ◼ ► interested to see John what you specifically feel about the headset in no small part because of the
01:52:06 ◼ ► three of us you're the only one with eyeglasses and I have to imagine there will be a story around
01:52:10 ◼ ► that but it's the story that you have eyeglasses what are you talking about no he has super super
01:52:15 ◼ ► special contacts right I know but you've also got glasses but for when you take contacts out
01:52:19 ◼ ► yes but I never take my contacts out except when I sleep because otherwise I'm friggin blind don't
01:52:24 ◼ ► you have reading glasses now Marco yes I do and that sucks I hate every moment of it we're all
01:52:31 ◼ ► enough to have glasses yeah no and I by the way I also do have contacts by the way reading glasses
01:52:36 ◼ ► don't seem to be addressed by any VR headset I've ever seen I mean maybe you know I don't follow the
01:52:40 ◼ ► news as closely as you maybe I'm missing like the ones that have customs things but the thing is
01:52:45 ◼ ► everything in well things inside VR headsets are physically close to your eyes bottom line like
01:52:51 ◼ ► even even if you're doing the outside camera view type of thing so I think if there's someone like
01:52:55 ◼ ► Marco whose eyes have difficulty focusing on things that are close by there may need to be some
01:53:01 ◼ ► lens help out there for maybe I don't know what Marcos prescription is but like it's not much it's
01:53:06 ◼ ► like 0.75 magnification yeah you'll probably be fine and in fact it'll maybe help you uh the
01:53:11 ◼ ► pixels blur together but like that's another thing that you know every headset manufacturer knows that
01:53:15 ◼ ► people don't have provisions you must accommodate for some kind of you know diopter adjustment or
01:53:20 ◼ ► prescription lenses prescription lenses is going farther than just like diopter adjustment because
01:53:25 ◼ ► you can have things like astigmatism that are not easy to do by just moving lenses back and forth
01:53:28 ◼ ► and anyway I I do hope Apple does a good job of that I've also like for like I don't know if this
01:53:33 ◼ ► I don't know what part of visual problems this is but I had this problem with both the Quest 2 and
01:53:39 ◼ ► with the the DJI headset that I briefly owned for that DJI fpv drone that I briefly owned that like
01:53:47 ◼ ► I can never get things set right so that the center of my field of view and the edges of my
01:53:52 ◼ ► field of view are all in focus in one of those headsets like the edges the the outer edges of
01:53:57 ◼ ► my field of view were always blurry and I don't know like again I mean this is one of the like
01:54:01 ◼ ► I have pretty good eyes overall and yet I still have problems like this because of this one minor
01:54:06 ◼ ► flaw that I have people have so many different you know eye conditions and lens shapes and
01:54:10 ◼ ► different abilities and different you know needs for different corrections this is going to be a
01:54:14 ◼ ► tough problem to solve and frankly I I hope that and I think I have I have pretty good faith that
01:54:20 ◼ ► Apple has probably put a lot of effort into making this as accessible to different people's eye needs
01:54:27 ◼ ► as they possibly can compared to the rest of the industry because that's the kind of thing they
01:54:30 ◼ ► would care about but I also don't know like what what are the physical limits of what they can even
01:54:36 ◼ ► correct easily and you know maybe they maybe they just can't correct for certain types of conditions
01:54:40 ◼ ► yet and maybe they never can and that's why like I'm a little worried about this product's overall
01:54:45 ◼ ► accessibility even if you get past issues of price which is its own version of accessibility but you
01:54:51 ◼ ► know even if you get past that are there going to be certain you know eye conditions or or other
01:54:57 ◼ ► types of you know ability differences that make it impossible to use this product and would people
01:55:03 ◼ ► with those conditions or or abilities have just this entire world of technology that they can't
01:55:08 ◼ ► access like I hopefully Apple will do the best job they can for that and Apple I think of all the tech
01:55:14 ◼ ► of all the major tech companies I think they do the best work in accessibility by far so hopefully
01:55:20 ◼ ► they would accommodate as best as they possibly can all different abilities and needs but this
01:55:26 ◼ ► kind of product is so specialized because it goes right on your face and is right on your eyes like
01:55:31 ◼ ► and it has to measure your hand tracking allegedly and you know what if you have motor difficulties
01:55:35 ◼ ► like there's all sorts of potential accessibility limitations and challenges with this product that
01:55:40 ◼ ► that again I have I have a lot of faith in Apple to address those to whatever degree they can but
01:55:45 ◼ ► they might not be able to for certain for certain things. I think Microsoft is the leader in
01:55:50 ◼ ► accessibility when it comes to gaming they have tons of custom controllers for more accessible
01:55:55 ◼ ► custom controllers they've gone way above and beyond what any other gaming company has done
01:56:05 ◼ ► full-fledged AAA same video games as everybody else but with with controllers that if you look
01:56:10 ◼ ► at them they may not make sense to you until you see somebody using them Apple doesn't have
01:56:20 ◼ ► and everything controlling games on Apple platforms sucks equally for everybody yeah well no I mean
01:56:24 ◼ ► you can use you can use your PlayStation controller but Apple has basically seeded that market to
01:56:27 ◼ ► third parties but Microsoft has put considerable effort into it this is another place where we can
01:56:30 ◼ ► look at what Apple does and compare it to well I keep comparing them to Microsoft because Microsoft
01:56:34 ◼ ► actually did break into the gaming market and showed what it takes to do that and by the way
01:56:38 ◼ ► it's been so hard for them that there are they're currently considering maybe bailing out I'm not
01:56:42 ◼ ► sure they're going to do that but anyway what does Apple do in the area of accessibility so they have
01:56:47 ◼ ► people come up and say okay we're going to show our the cool video games that you know be supportive
01:56:52 ◼ ► of headset or whatever do they take any time to say oh and by the way since AR/VR games demand
01:56:59 ◼ ► more of you physically to be able to play them here is the our accessibility story for that because it
01:57:04 ◼ ► is it is more demanding you mentioned an atom waving his arms around or whatever like it there
01:57:08 ◼ ► it's physically more demanding to play most VR games because you're not just sitting on the
01:57:13 ◼ ► couch motionless with your thumbs on a thumb stick and even that has accessibility issues because
01:57:17 ◼ ► you know there's lots of controls lots of buttons they're not easy to hit depending on you know what
01:57:22 ◼ ► kind of mobility you have and how about control you have your digits that's why they have those
01:57:26 ◼ ► you know all sorts of accessible controls that Microsoft are going to I'll try to find a link to
01:57:29 ◼ ► show notes to show people what those are like but they're really cool but yeah VR also has that same
01:57:35 ◼ ► story and I'm not you know again it's a 1.0 you don't expect Apple out the door to have this it
01:57:38 ◼ ► took Microsoft years and years and years to get seriously into accessibility for console games so
01:57:44 ◼ ► I'm not going to fault Apple if they don't have a big story there but it is it's what we talk about
01:57:49 ◼ ► with these headsets all the time how many people are you removing from your market by requiring
01:57:56 ◼ ► them to put something on your face by requiring them to be able to wave their hands around to be
01:57:59 ◼ ► requiring them to be able to stand up and turn their head or focus their eyes or all the other
01:58:03 ◼ ► things that this this headset will demand for you to do anything with it how narrow are you
01:58:09 ◼ ► you know how narrow is your market going to be when all is said and done and again for a 1.0 it
01:58:14 ◼ ► might end up being pretty narrow all I know is sitting here today and we've talked about this
01:58:19 ◼ ► a lot I have no damn idea what the point of this is but the closer we get to this phantom headset
01:58:28 ◼ ► thing leaving aside the fact that I cannot fathom looking in the mirror and saying yes this is worth
01:58:36 ◼ ► three thousand dollars much less saying to Aaron hey I think I want to spend three thousand dollars
01:58:39 ◼ ► for something that may or may not ever be anything but all that aside guarantee you buy one oh it
01:58:45 ◼ ► I'm sure I will it's for the business Aaron what do you want from me it's for the business
01:58:49 ◼ ► see at least at least I don't tell myself I'm not going to but that's true there are two rumors
01:58:54 ◼ ► related to this by the way related to Casey buying it and the price and whatever the rumors are one
01:59:00 ◼ ► that someone did like a bill of materials check on it because now so many rumors have leaked that
01:59:04 ◼ ► they know like this is the vendor of the screens this is the vendor of the you know all that like
01:59:07 ◼ ► they did a bill materials thing and they said the cost of the thing is around fifteen sixteen
01:59:11 ◼ ► hundred dollars and the other rumor is that Apple would be selling this at cost and not making its
01:59:16 ◼ ► customary thirty forty percent margins so we're thinking like two thousand maybe yeah those are
01:59:21 ◼ ► both true maybe the thing comes out as a sixteen hundred dollar device like that they're not there
01:59:25 ◼ ► that it would be even like a loss leader they might even lose a little bit I don't know if I
01:59:29 ◼ ► believe that but you know it's a thing that's happened you know occasionally in the game
01:59:33 ◼ ► console world it always happens except for if you're Nintendo the other console makers when
01:59:38 ◼ ► their consoles first come out they sell them at a small loss and eventually they start selling at a
01:59:41 ◼ ► profit Nintendo has been more like Apple and said you know what we always want to make a profit but
01:59:45 ◼ ► then does that by cheaping out on the hardware Apple does it by raising the price so we'll see
01:59:49 ◼ ► so I feel like the uh the case is saying oh how am I going to spend three thousand dollars in this
01:59:54 ◼ ► there is a possibility however dim it might be that it won't be three thousand dollars so we'll
02:00:00 ◼ ► see yeah and I agree with you and and I also agree with Marco that I'm sure I'll end up getting one
02:00:05 ◼ ► because I can't resist but um but all that said I I have crossed the the Rubicon the threshold from
02:00:14 ◼ ► what really into really really what's this going to be about I'm excited to see what this is going
02:00:21 ◼ ► to be and so I'm really stoked for as we sit here and recording this a week from today I am really
02:00:26 ◼ ► really stoked to see what what is this what does it look like what is the point what is their spin
02:00:33 ◼ ► are they just going to throw a bunch of random different styles of pasta against the wall and
02:00:36 ◼ ► see what what sticks like they did with the watch are they going to have an extraordinarily mature
02:00:41 ◼ ► and specific story about it I I am really excited to see what this is I'm really excited to try one
02:00:49 ◼ ► whenever that may be maybe when that's when maybe that's when I receive mine maybe that's when I get
02:00:55 ◼ ► like an appointment at the Apple store like we did with the watches um I'm super excited to hear you
02:01:01 ◼ ► know for those that are able to try them at WWDC because presumably whether or not the broader press
02:01:06 ◼ ► does you got to imagine like these these xr you know press people will you know probably some
02:01:12 ◼ ► general video game uh press establishments will you know Apple I was just about to say you know
02:01:18 ◼ ► how much Apple loves YouTubers these days podcasts don't exist but the YouTubers they're where the
02:01:21 ◼ ► coolest they're cool kids are um so yeah so I'm curious to see what they have to say uh I'm just
02:01:27 ◼ ► I'm excited to hear it and it it almost it's almost a bummer that this is the event for it
02:01:34 ◼ ► because I I'm also excited for new ipad os I'm excited for new ios I'm excited for whatever
02:01:40 ◼ ► ridiculous part of California we're getting on our max next but I almost don't care about those
02:01:45 ◼ ► because I'm so hyper focused on what this headset is and what does it mean for me yeah like I care
02:02:00 ◼ ► attention and the anticipation because we are going to get a new platform in all likelihood
02:02:05 ◼ ► and that is that is a very exciting thing yeah yeah I'm still excited for the boring stuff but
02:02:10 ◼ ► one one thing related in case this doesn't end up being released I just want to mention it now
02:02:13 ◼ ► because it was one of the most fun rumors I saw and I just assumed I'd be able to talk about it
02:02:16 ◼ ► when it gets released but maybe it's totally false but anyway uh it was an ios 17 rumor and the rumor
02:02:22 ◼ ► was that on the multitasking switcher on an ios they'll have a button that basically removes
02:02:28 ◼ ► everything from that screen uh and now the question is does it does it do the equivalent of
02:02:35 ◼ ► force quitting every single one of those applications or does it just remove all the pictures
02:02:39 ◼ ► I really I really hope this feature exists because then we'll discover which of those two things it
02:02:46 ◼ ► does and it will just it's it's a great experiment for all the people who reflectively force quit
02:02:50 ◼ ► applications which again people shouldn't be doing um to see like how apple satisfies that user need
02:02:57 ◼ ► because we discussed in the past reflexively force quitting every application is bad for you and bad
02:03:02 ◼ ► for your phone but the desire to not have a bunch of images cluttering up that screen is perfectly
02:03:08 ◼ ► reasonable desire those are two separate things but people just don't want the pictures there
02:03:14 ◼ ► so the only way they have to get rid of the pictures is by swiping them upwards which by the
02:03:17 ◼ ► way does something else force quitting them and then other people want to force quit anyway as we
02:03:21 ◼ ► said in the past force quitting apps is fine reflexively force quitting every single application
02:03:25 ◼ ► every time you're done using your phone not fine those are two different things so if they add this
02:03:29 ◼ ► feature I can't wait to see what it actually does I have a hard time imagining that it will literally
02:03:35 ◼ ► force quit every application I think it will just get rid of the pictures and I think people that's
02:03:41 ◼ ► all people really want but then then what about when an application is hosed and you do have to
02:03:45 ◼ ► force quit it that will cause you you probably still have to swipe up and so there will be some
02:03:49 ◼ ► people who say I don't use the button because the button doesn't actually force quit the applications
02:03:54 ◼ ► I still swipe everything upwards see I don't I think they would actually make it like you know
02:04:01 ◼ ► terminate all the applications but you know over time when they when they first introduced that
02:04:06 ◼ ► you know that mechanism if your app was quote force quit and not running in the in the switcher
02:04:12 ◼ ► or not available in the switcher whatever it was you couldn't do things like background refresh
02:04:17 ◼ ► you couldn't do things like background downloads like there there was like you lost a lot of those
02:04:21 ◼ ► abilities and then over time they have actually given you more abilities to have your app woken
02:04:27 ◼ ► up for background activity when it is forced quit in in subsequent updates so I wonder if
02:04:32 ◼ ► you're in the middle of doing a background activity when you get a force quit and that's not gonna be
02:04:35 ◼ ► good for you no it's not gonna be good but maybe it maybe it would like you know call your termination
02:04:39 ◼ ► block and give you a few seconds to close it up rather than instantly closing you up you know who
02:04:43 ◼ ► knows but you know if they would do something like that it wouldn't surprise me if there were also
02:04:49 ◼ ► some tweaks to what your app was it was able to do when it has been forced quit so to make it less of
02:04:56 ◼ ► an extreme negative for the experience of using each app but it but I think it still would actually
02:05:02 ◼ ► terminate the current executable of the apps we'll see we'll see but I think they're if they're if
02:05:07 ◼ ► this rumors are true I think that they need to go a step further which is like for the visual
02:05:12 ◼ ► clutter thing requiring someone to go back to that screen and hit the one button to get rid of all the
02:05:16 ◼ ► little pictures why not just let people like say hey every time I lock my phone get rid of all the
02:05:21 ◼ ► little pictures or put a maximum number on the little pictures right and I keep saying little
02:05:24 ◼ ► pictures because for people who don't know very often those little pictures of screens of apps
02:05:29 ◼ ► are apps that have not been running for days but like iOS keeps little pictures of what the screen
02:05:34 ◼ ► looked like the last time it was running and so as you scroll to the left and more and more of those
02:05:38 ◼ ► things like those things haven't been running in ages they're not currently running they haven't
02:05:41 ◼ ► been running it's just a little picture so I think people just don't want the visual clutter on that
02:05:45 ◼ ► screen and requiring them to manually clean up that screen every time a single button is better
02:05:49 ◼ ► than having them swipe up but it's not as good as saying hey just let me know should I have a
02:05:53 ◼ ► maximum of three items there every time the screen locks you want me to remove all those little
02:05:57 ◼ ► pictures I think that would make people happier because at this point there's so many people who
02:06:01 ◼ ► have trained themselves to clean up all the little pictures they just need to do it iOS can help them
02:06:06 ◼ ► out there iOS can can get rid of those pictures for them automatically but anyway we'll see we'll
02:06:11 ◼ ► see if this room if the rumor is not true then whatever this has all just been a pointless
02:06:14 ◼ ► discussion but the rumor is true I find this the most exciting and fascinating feature of iOS 17
02:06:18 ◼ ► that I've heard rumored oh my god you have pretty low standards right I mean it's a headset year
02:06:24 ◼ ► like whatever no but I mean but I'm actually hoping for other platform improvements as well
02:06:29 ◼ ► and I don't need to be blown away with tons of user features I just want to see you know I mean
02:06:34 ◼ ► first of all the the idea that was rumored about watchOS being potentially you know pretty well
02:06:39 ◼ ► revamped in a lot of ways that's very exciting to me because as I mentioned earlier most years it
02:06:44 ◼ ► seems like watchOS is barely touched and I know that isn't always the case but in terms of what
02:06:50 ◼ ► features actually show up to users and developers it's pretty minimal every year with watchOS so
02:06:56 ◼ ► the idea of there being a substantial update or change to how watchOS works or looks or behaves
02:07:02 ◼ ► is pretty promising to me because as much as I I've you know really gotten into the Apple Watch in
02:07:07 ◼ ► the last couple years in terms of you know I've been wearing it most days and not wearing my fancy
02:07:11 ◼ ► watches as much I think it still could be so much better than it is and and there's a lot of low
02:07:17 ◼ ► hanging fruit that they just haven't picked so I hope that this is a big harvest to stretch that
02:07:23 ◼ ► metaphor way too far but in general what I want as a developer is just give me the next give me
02:07:30 ◼ ► the next iterative iterative set of improvements for SwiftUI and Swift itself. Swift itself is
02:07:35 ◼ ► actually doing pretty well that happens kind of separately from the WWDC cadence in a lot of ways
02:07:40 ◼ ► but give me just you know next version of SwiftUI and next version of Xcode like there's been a lot
02:07:46 ◼ ► of weird little Xcode bugs this year I have weird source kit crashing in the background sometimes
02:07:52 ◼ ► sometimes I have to reboot my entire Mac to get things to work correctly or to update in the
02:07:55 ◼ ► simulator which is really scary whenever I work on a package like Blackbird or like my Overcast
02:08:02 ◼ ► new sync engine when you have a package open in Xcode and you try to then open a project that uses
02:08:07 ◼ ► that package weird stuff happens and it basically doesn't work there's all sorts of weird little
02:08:12 ◼ ► behaviors like that errors that that stick around forever on Xcode even after you've cleared the
02:08:16 ◼ ► error oh gosh yes there are so many so annoying yeah so many little bugs like that and little
02:08:24 ◼ ► limitations like that that make day-to-day stuff in the current version of Xcode less reliable
02:08:30 ◼ ► that or weirdly limited in some way that's the kind of stuff I want to see fixed you know just
02:08:35 ◼ ► improvements of developers day-to-day lives fix the tool bugs make you know make things perform a
02:08:41 ◼ ► little bit a little bit better if you can but really like fix the bugs first and you know
02:08:45 ◼ ► iterative updates to SwiftUI that that's that's what I'm really hoping for yeah I would love to
02:08:50 ◼ ► see some SwiftUI improvements I've I've actually been pretty happy with SwiftUI for the most part
02:08:54 ◼ ► there's definitely some things that are very frustrating and very janky and there's a lot
02:09:00 ◼ ► of places where I wish I had more control than I'm allowed you know especially like with regard to
02:09:05 ◼ ► the search field which is what I'm running into a lot with call sheet you know I need to I ended
02:09:11 ◼ ► up needing to go thanks to the help of Gi Rambo I needed to end up going down to UIKit like plucking
02:09:17 ◼ ► the the appropriate UIKit control out of the view hierarchy which is gross and I hate it but I
02:09:24 ◼ ► needed to do that in order to accomplish what I needed to do but for the most part I haven't had
02:09:28 ◼ ► to do too much of that with SwiftUI the new navigation stuff you had brought up like an
02:09:32 ◼ ► hour and a half ago it took me kicking and screaming or I was kicking and screaming going
02:09:37 ◼ ► to embrace it but once I did it actually makes everything way way easier and way way nicer it
02:09:45 ◼ ► seemed completely overblown see also all of SwiftUI it's always that way that's fair yeah yeah that's
02:09:50 ◼ ► true no you're exactly right but you know once I embraced like creating you know a enum that
02:09:57 ◼ ► represents all of my different screens and then you know having basically an array of that enum
02:10:02 ◼ ► that or enumeration or whatever that that manages what is the current navigation stack once I
02:10:07 ◼ ► finally committed to that it made so many things so much easier and I'm really digging on that
02:10:12 ◼ ► there's definitely time so it's annoying but for the most part it works really well but yeah there's
02:10:16 ◼ ► a lot of there's a lot of stuff both low hanging and not that I would love to see get better you
02:10:22 ◼ ► know Marco and I have both been whining you know we've been commiserating with each other slash
02:10:26 ◼ ► whining publicly about how bad the error messaging still is in SwiftUI and that is a hard problem to
02:10:31 ◼ ► solve it really really is because you know we're bending Swift you know in half breaking it and
02:10:38 ◼ ► trying not to you know and trying to put it back together again like I totally genuinely sympathize
02:10:44 ◼ ► with what the the Swift and SwiftUI developers are working against and up against but as someone who
02:10:51 ◼ ► is using their work product you know getting these completely unintelligible error messages
02:10:56 ◼ ► often being highlighted on you know 50 lines away from where the actual error is all too often and I
02:11:02 ◼ ► forget the way it's phrased but all too often you know SwiftUI will just throw its hands up and be
02:11:07 ◼ ► like sorry dude I got nothing yeah it'll be like this is wrong but I can't tell you why yeah help
02:11:12 ◼ ► me help me please give me give me give me 50 lines to narrow down on no no I don't think I'd like to
02:11:18 ◼ ► do that just just figure it out just keep hitting command z until you get something that builds and
02:11:22 ◼ ► then slowly what is the command shift z back and so something breaks you know stuff like that and
02:11:28 ◼ ► Marco the thing you mentioned which I've been running into more and more often the Xcode errors
02:11:31 ◼ ► that you fixed yet are still shown in the sidebar for the basically until you reboot your computer
02:11:36 ◼ ► or at least restart Xcode it's driving me batty but hopefully that'll get better but all in all
02:11:42 ◼ ► like I have been really enjoying doing the SwiftUI work in CallSheet and god knows like whether or
02:11:49 ◼ ► not you think CallSheet is ugly I can assure you that it would be way uglier it would just be
02:11:57 ◼ ► straight up ugly in UIKit and a lot of that is because I'm not as good a UIKit programmer but
02:12:02 ◼ ► I think SwiftUI makes making pretty interfaces much easier for someone like me who is not a
02:12:08 ◼ ► designer by any stretch of the imagination and yeah I echo what you're saying Marco to have
02:12:13 ◼ ► improvements in Xcode improvements in SwiftUI improvements in just what we're able to do as
02:12:18 ◼ ► developers in any general way like all of that is welcome and I'm really excited to see to see what
02:12:24 ◼ ► lands and I hope that even though I know you know the the headset will overshadow all these things
02:12:29 ◼ ► a lot of times some of the boring stuff is some of the best stuff like store kit 2 is not perfect
02:12:34 ◼ ► but it's really nice and a hell of a lot nicer than store kit 1 was you know silly stuff like
02:12:39 ◼ ► that really matters and I hope we see some of it yeah that's like what I'm ultimately looking
02:12:43 ◼ ► forward to is all those little tiny iterative changes like for instance there are still so
02:12:50 ◼ ► much in the platform APIs where we can't use async code yet and it would be like any every time you
02:12:58 ◼ ► know every new os version since async has been released they've added a few more places you can
02:13:03 ◼ ► use async code I assume we will hopefully be in for the same thing this year that we'll have more
02:13:08 ◼ ► places we can use async code more places that are that are made more Swift native more places that
02:13:13 ◼ ► are more easily compatible with SwiftUI like all these these major platform and language shifts
02:13:19 ◼ ► and framework shifts they've made over the last decade more and more places in the code where we
02:13:24 ◼ ► can use them where we can write the most modern kind of code possible Swift async SwiftUI all
02:13:30 ◼ ► those like all the hooks that we get into various system callbacks and frameworks and different UI
02:13:36 ◼ ► components like the more they can modernize the better that makes developers lives easier I have
02:13:41 ◼ ► faith that they will do that again this year because they do that every single year and it's
02:13:44 ◼ ► wonderful and that's that's the kind of stuff that actually makes a bigger difference honestly
02:13:49 ◼ ► to most developers lives than a new platform like that's that's why you know it's not going to get
02:13:56 ◼ ► mentioned it's not going to get news coverage it's not going to make anybody super excited
02:13:59 ◼ ► except when we're going through like the API diffs or we see a session in the middle of the week like
02:14:04 ◼ ► oh my god that one little tiny change of that one API call that makes my life easier that's wonderful
02:14:08 ◼ ► like that's that's what I most look forward to in wbdc is the big stuff yeah you know that that can
02:14:15 ◼ ► be game changing for some people not usually for everyone it's the small stuff that makes everyone's
02:14:21 ◼ ► lives a little bit better once you can actually use that you know that that os version that's the
02:14:24 ◼ ► kind of stuff that I really look forward to because that helps everyone even if you have an app type
02:14:30 ◼ ► that doesn't benefit from any of the other big changes or a new platform that's announced
02:14:34 ◼ ► you can still benefit from like this one improvement to this file or network API or whatever it is yep
02:14:41 ◼ ► couldn't agree more thanks to our sponsors this week green chef trade coffee and judo and thanks
02:14:48 ◼ ► to our members who support us directly you can join us atp.fm slash join and we will talk to you next week
02:15:24 ◼ ► and if you're into twitter you can follow them at c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s so that's casey list m-a-r-c-o-a-r-m
02:15:48 ◼ ► they didn't mean to accidental tech podcast so long casey i have to ask in the document
02:16:01 ◼ ► under after show it says casey has destroyed aaron's car and computer in the span of one weekend
02:16:08 ◼ ► now i can guess you know maybe there was a water spill on the computer but how did you spill enough
02:16:14 ◼ ► water to destroy her car yeah no i that is a little bit of uh not hyperbole but a little
02:16:20 ◼ ► well i guess it is hyperbole it's a little bit exaggerated no yeah i know right it's funny
02:16:24 ◼ ► it's shocking i tell you um aaron was slated to go on her first girls trip uh since just before
02:16:32 ◼ ► the pandemic like weeks before the pandemic uh she was slated to go to a place a couple hours away
02:16:38 ◼ ► from home um and then she was gonna spend the weekend there and have some time not being mom
02:16:43 ◼ ► which she freaking is deserved she is owed that so badly we had a whole bunch of stuff that was
02:16:51 ◼ ► going on the morning friday morning that she was intending to leave so i am in the passenger seat
02:16:57 ◼ ► of her vulvo i forget why we took her car but we did uh it was a little bit brisk that morning and
02:17:02 ◼ ► so i had a couple of atp sweatshirts actually uh on on my lap and then i had my ipad on top of that
02:17:08 ◼ ► which i brought with me as i often do just in case i need it's like do something on the computer
02:17:14 ◼ ► well i i was putting the stack of two sweatshirts and ipad onto her dashboard just very briefly as
02:17:22 ◼ ► we were running in to drop mikayla off i wouldn't leave the ipad there generally speaking but it
02:17:25 ◼ ► means it's at a church it's not the sort of place where i'm really worried about you know something
02:17:36 ◼ ► just put something in slack you're going to want to zoom a little bit oh no that's aaron's
02:17:43 ◼ ► windshield you don't know your own strength you may be a hulk there is a giant star shaped crack
02:17:49 ◼ ► in the right in the middle of this windshield not like a little chip you get when like a rock hits
02:17:53 ◼ ► your windshield not like that at all no it's it radiates out the whole length of the windshield
02:17:59 ◼ ► it's a big crack and there's like a fairly large uh impact crater if you will you know what you did
02:18:06 ◼ ► you know those tools they give you like if your car goes underwater and you can't and you can't
02:18:09 ◼ ► roll down the window and you have to get out and it's just a tiny pointy piece of metal that you
02:18:13 ◼ ► whack into your window to free yourself you did that with your ipad didn't with the corner of my
02:18:17 ◼ ► ipad that is exactly right so this is good for people to know if your car goes into a lake and
02:18:22 ◼ ► you can't roll down the window and you can't open the door because like the pressures you know the
02:18:27 ◼ ► water pressure is keeping it closed just take the corner of that ipad or i guess the iphone if you
02:18:31 ◼ ► take it out of your case and just whack that against the window and then swim to freedom
02:18:35 ◼ ► so aaron is climbing out of the car she's getting mikaela out of her car seat i go to put this on
02:18:39 ◼ ► the windshield hand to god gentlemen i hit the windshield that is not up for grabs obviously
02:18:44 ◼ ► but it was i won't even try to do foley work but it was the littlest like ting the littlest glance
02:18:50 ◼ ► off the windshield it's not like i'm slamming the ipad into the windshield as much as we're joking
02:18:53 ◼ ► about me being the hulk i wasn't slamming the ipad it did hit the windshield but it was the tiniest
02:18:59 ◼ ► little glance off the inside did the ipad leave your hand no the ipad was in my hand and it was in
02:19:05 ◼ ► the magic keyboard that i can never remember the name of the smart keyboard magic keyboard whatever
02:19:08 ◼ ► it was it upright like no it was horizontal i think i just happened to glance off the corner
02:19:13 ◼ ► of the ipad just right so so aaron's getting out of the car i put the i attempt to put the ipad and
02:19:22 ◼ ► sweatshirt stack in her dash and i hear tink and i see that did grow a little bit since i picked
02:19:27 ◼ ► before that picture was taken but it was mostly like that immediately and so i do tink oh and she
02:19:34 ◼ ► looks at me and she's like what and then she goes oh no this amazes me because if you've driven a
02:19:41 ◼ ► car like you know you can like rocks can fly up from the wheels of a truck in front of you at 60
02:19:45 ◼ ► miles an hour on the highway and they'll just leave a little chip but this is just you just
02:19:49 ◼ ► destroyed it i don't know how and i agree with you it's exactly accurate is the ipad okay yeah
02:19:55 ◼ ► the ipad's fine she's she's supposed to drive her own friggin car two hours to go visit some
02:20:02 ◼ ► visit we have a weekend with her friends and some jackass over here decides to accidentally shatter
02:20:08 ◼ ► her windshield aaron to her credit was extremely good about it like she said to me how did that
02:20:12 ◼ ► happen i heard the little ting how could that have possibly been the result of that little ting she
02:20:18 ◼ ► was very very good about it it much much better than i would have been what happened is somebody
02:20:22 ◼ ► got casey talking about the bug reporting process at apple right it's i was just thinking about it
02:20:28 ◼ ► and that's what happened uh that or documentation it was one of the two but um i absolutely destroyed
02:20:33 ◼ ► her car and uh i feel terrible about it to this day i know i'm joking about it but i really feel
02:20:38 ◼ ► terrible about it and again i can't say enough good things about my wife who has been an angel
02:20:42 ◼ ► about this whole thing i would have been such a turd if this had happened to me and this is why
02:20:46 ◼ ► she is for a zillion reasons the better person of the two of us uh but she she has been extremely
02:20:51 ◼ ► good about it and you know hasn't she's made fun of me for it but oh but she hasn't been a turd
02:20:56 ◼ ► about it she has full right to make fun of you forever about this oh absolutely exactly exactly
02:21:01 ◼ ► right now it also says in this in this bullet point that you destroyed her computer in the same
02:21:05 ◼ ► weekend so that's that's that is definitely hyperbole so uh aaron uses her actual computer
02:21:11 ◼ ► which if you recall is my old macbook adorable my old macbook one you know the one port one usbc only
02:21:18 ◼ ► and a headphone jack macbook which i still love i seem to recall that she previously had a macbook
02:21:22 ◼ ► air that had some issues oh yeah that had been in the drink like six times that were also i believe
02:21:28 ◼ ► your fault that though those unquestionably were my fault there is nothing over grabs there
02:21:33 ◼ ► uh but we're sitting on the couch and she during the pandemic aaron had started doing um like the
02:21:38 ◼ ► online grocery stuff through kroger where you know she goes on kroger's website she picks out what
02:21:43 ◼ ► she wants they they shop on her behalf if you will and then she you know drives up and they
02:21:47 ◼ ► plunk all the groceries in the car so she's sitting there doing the kroger order on her
02:21:51 ◼ ► macbook adorable that was already in need of like a reload i don't even remember what version of
02:21:56 ◼ ► of mac os is on it but it's years old at this point i've been meaning to you know pull a windows
02:22:01 ◼ ► if you will and refresh everything and start anew but i hadn't gotten to it and she was using it i'm
02:22:06 ◼ ► sitting on the couch next to her watching her do this i don't remember why i was watching her i
02:22:09 ◼ ► think she was asking about which which version of something i i thought we we should get but all of
02:22:14 ◼ ► a sudden it freezes and she's like oh that's weird yeah that's that's a little weird but i mean it is
02:22:19 ◼ ► a macbook adorable it was a piece of garbage when it was new i love that piece of garbage but it was
02:22:23 ◼ ► a piece of garbage and then it turns off okay not good so then she starts it up again and i see the
02:22:30 ◼ ► apple logo and then i see a padlock huh it's not getting better not getting better i think what it
02:22:39 ◼ ► is is file vault asking for a password i think but i tried every permutation of any of the passwords
02:22:48 ◼ ► that she and i would ever normally use and none of them worked is that like a firmware password do
02:22:54 ◼ ► they still support those i have no idea i i your guess is as good as mine um so i see this padlock
02:23:01 ◼ ► i'm like okay that's that's something's not right so then i think well i can't i i haven't looked
02:23:06 ◼ ► back at this since that evening but i was like all right well let me see if i can do like an internet
02:23:09 ◼ ► recovery and just like do some diagnostics or something like that and it's able to start up it's
02:23:14 ◼ ► able to go into the internet recovery thing i'm able to download all that it needs for internet
02:23:18 ◼ ► recovery and then it fails every time and i forget the error message off the top my head but it fails
02:23:23 ◼ ► every time i think that either the ssd has died or the logic board has had some sort of catastrophic
02:23:30 ◼ ► failure and the thing is toast so i actually honestly i didn't destroy it that was just it
02:23:35 ◼ ► made for a fun message for you two to see in the show notes but um i don't think i destroyed it and
02:23:40 ◼ ► and so that thing i have not been able to resuscitate it if you have an idea for me i am
02:23:44 ◼ ► all years i have thought oh i do oh yeah yeah get her a macbook air and well it's funny you say that
02:23:51 ◼ ► because one of the tabs i have open on my computer and i am not a john syracusas i only have a handful
02:23:55 ◼ ► open right now but one of them is a certified refurbished 13-inch macbook air apple m2 chip
02:23:59 ◼ ► with eight core cpu and 10 core gpu midnight for 16 or 1530 which is i think what i'm gonna do
02:24:06 ◼ ► this particular one has 16 gigs ram and a half terabyte ssd that's great she probably needs
02:24:11 ◼ ► neither of those things but what i haven't mentioned to either of you particularly marco
02:24:16 ◼ ► uh earmuffs marco is that the only functional computer that i have in the house i guess other
02:24:21 ◼ ► than the mac mini which i hadn't thought about until just now but the only computer i have in
02:24:24 ◼ ► the house right now is this one is mine is my macbook pro and if you're prone to occasionally
02:24:30 ◼ ► putting computers underwater like i am seems a little uh inadvisable for me not to have some
02:24:36 ◼ ► other computer capable of podcasting somewhere in the house and so i told her you know whether or
02:24:42 ◼ ► not she really needs a computer because again the only thing she ever really did on this computer
02:24:46 ◼ ► was croger and she could do that on like the ipad or my computer or what have you but it seems
02:24:51 ◼ ► prudent for us to have a backup computer for me yes just in case i have a computer issue you are
02:24:56 ◼ ► a computer professional it is okay to have some kind of backup in the house exactly so my current
02:25:02 ◼ ► plan um and i haven't i haven't acted on this yet and i do want to try a little bit longer to see if
02:25:08 ◼ ► i can resuscitate this thing um but my current plan is to probably just buy her macbook air
02:25:14 ◼ ► which is long overdue anyway and just call it call it a day if you're looking at refurbs look
02:25:18 ◼ ► at m1 and macbook air instead of m2 because she doesn't need the m2 and you can ask her which form
02:25:24 ◼ ► like because you have that wedge-shaped computer before she might want one and the m1 is going to
02:25:27 ◼ ► be cheaper and it's it's just as good for what she's going to be doing with it that is true but
02:25:32 ◼ ► she's that much cheaper though it i i haven't looked i will look i i think marco's right i
02:25:37 ◼ ► don't think it'll be that much cheaper she definitely deserves something better even though
02:25:41 ◼ ► like i don't think she needs it i think you're right john but more than anything else i want this
02:25:45 ◼ ► thing to last a long time and so i agree with you that it's probably not that different between the
02:25:50 ◼ ► m1 and the m2 but my thought process is you know i'll get refurb because she doesn't need or want
02:25:57 ◼ ► something brand new but nevertheless i would like to get as good as can i can reasonably get right
02:26:02 ◼ ► now without breaking the bank i kind of like the m1 but i've said this before i think the m1 is
02:26:06 ◼ ► uh macbook air is a better machine than the m2 just like in terms of balance obviously the m2 is
02:26:12 ◼ ► a little bit faster and if you like the flat form factor it's fine but the m1 the m2 is like a
02:26:17 ◼ ► little bit heatier and throttle throttle-ier than the m1 was they both don't have fans and it's fine
02:26:23 ◼ ► and it's not a big deal but i just i feel like the m1 hit the sweet spot a little bit better than the
02:26:27 ◼ ► m2 does so when i think about buying like a cheap laptop or something i still think m1 macbook air
02:26:31 ◼ ► even though the m2 is and i got my son an m2 because you know same thing future proofing or
02:26:35 ◼ ► whatever but also that sweet magsafe port that means that you have one more port oh that's true
02:26:41 ◼ ► too because you because now you have three three ports like when you're when you have power
02:26:45 ◼ ► connected you now have two usb-c thunderbolt ports that are free i mean she was using the the macbook
02:26:51 ◼ ► one so i don't think ports are a big need for her but still it's still like you know for for in case
02:26:57 ◼ ► this computer gets repurposed in your household down the road exactly it is a little bit more
02:27:00 ◼ ► versatile to have the m2 one exactly right um somebody who is this uh gardner vh posted in the
02:27:06 ◼ ► chat a link which we will put in the show notes here's all the things that your um that your
02:27:11 ◼ ► computer can show on startup and it is i don't think i can link to the heading but the heading
02:27:15 ◼ ► is lock icon and if your mac is using a firmware password the lock icon appears when you try to
02:27:20 ◼ ► start up from another disk or volume such as an external drive or mac os recovery enter the
02:27:24 ◼ ► firmware password to continue if i put in a firmware password i have zero recollection of
02:27:28 ◼ ► it again i tried any permutation i can remember um to to get through this of both my passwords and
02:27:34 ◼ ► errands and uh none of them worked and also note that i just read to you when you try to start up
02:27:40 ◼ ► from another disk or volume i wasn't trying to do that i was trying to start up from the internal
02:27:45 ◼ ► ssd so something has gone wonky and it's probably not good you can't get to the hardware diagnostics
02:27:51 ◼ ► uh you know i haven't tried i can the computer's behind me i can try it right now if you really
02:27:55 ◼ ► want me to i forget exactly how you start that on an intel mac but i'm it's uh you can hold down
02:28:05 ◼ ► um but yeah i think it's just toast i think either the ssd or the logic board is toast yeah it does
02:28:11 ◼ ► say in this document that like you can bring it into an apple store with proof of purchase and
02:28:14 ◼ ► they can reset it for you but that's only that's only if the firmware password that you never even
02:28:19 ◼ ► set is somehow a problem right is rather than being the symptom of a different deeper problem so
02:28:24 ◼ ► yeah i'm guessing this is probably the end of this computer and good riddance and you know
02:28:32 ◼ ► right exactly right and i mean again she doesn't really care and i mean that in a good way not that
02:28:37 ◼ ► she's like it's just it's not something that's important to her yeah but everyone likes nice
02:28:41 ◼ ► things especially after you destroy their car exactly uh and by the way um globe with warning
02:28:46 ◼ ► symbol if memory serves this is what it looked like this is on the same page right above lock
02:28:50 ◼ ► icon actually a globe with warning symbol is what i saw when i tried to do internet recovery and it
02:28:54 ◼ ► failed on two or three consecutive oh well no i shouldn't say consecutive i went back and forth
02:28:58 ◼ ► but two or three tries on that same night i didn't like bother plugging it into ethernet which is a
02:29:03 ◼ ► nightmare because it only has one port but um i could have done that uh i haven't bothered but i
02:29:09 ◼ ► really truly think that this thing is just fried and i thought about bringing it to apple just for
02:29:13 ◼ ► the purposes of diagnosis but even if they're like oh yeah this is the problem like what am i really
02:29:17 ◼ ► going to do what what actionable information is that really you can give it to them and they'll
02:29:21 ◼ ► recycle it for you i guess that's about all it's good for exactly it's better than throwing it out
02:29:26 ◼ ► or you could you know look there's also reduce and reuse it's too late for reduce you can reuse it