538: We Studied Thousands of Heads


00:00:00   Big day?

00:00:02   Jon how's weather where you are? I am in my house. So it is indoor weather. I

00:00:07   Am also in my house

00:00:11   Jon and I definitely were not cool enough to be invited not that I am I won't speak for Jon

00:00:16   Not that I'm bitter at all. But Marco, where are you? I am in a hotel room in California

00:00:21   I'm very jealous. I'm very very jealous

00:00:24   Although I'm not not sure I'm jealous of you being in San Jose particularly, but that's neither here nor there

00:00:29   But you are in California. You are our intrepid reporter on the ground

00:00:32   I am very pleased that at least one of us was cool enough to to show up

00:00:37   Or be allowed to show up. So tell me should we do should we do a vibe check?

00:00:42   I mean since we have since apparently that is I'm gonna stop with the vibe check. It's a one-time thing

00:00:46   Okay, fine Marco would you tell me what the feeling is around Cupertino today the feeling check is

00:00:53   Frank frankly, I mean I gotta say so

00:00:58   you know I got in last night and

00:01:00   The vibe but even before it started was you could kind of just feel the energy like vibrating

00:01:08   Everybody was excited because you know the handful of Apple people who were walking around

00:01:11   They were super excited the handful, you know, the developers that I saw last night, you know here, you know some friends here and there

00:01:17   Everyone was super excited and look with good reason. I mean we all knew this was gonna be like, you know a big announcement and I

00:01:24   Mean, geez, I don't even know where to start. I mean, they're so

00:01:28   Much I mean so, you know, I guess we'll start with you know our usual, you know

00:01:32   keynote order of things but there is just so much so I wanted this close immediately I have not yet tried the headset I

00:01:39   Am I'm hoping to get a chance to try it before I leave

00:01:43   I

00:01:45   Don't know how likely this hopes are at this point, but I have not tried the headset

00:01:49   I have seen the headset but seeing it is very different from trying it

00:01:54   And I also saw Tim Cook seeing the headset, but he did not prevent me from seeing it this time

00:01:59   He was further over in the room. It was a hands-off area, right? You weren't actually to touch it

00:02:05   Yes, we could touch the MacBook Pro and the or the MacBook Air rather and I don't know if I could touch the Mac Pro

00:02:10   I I didn't I didn't touch the Mac Pro, but I

00:02:13   Have tried you can do what I did with the iMac Pro was you just walk right up to it and start using it until

00:02:18   An apple person just swats you away. I didn't get mildly swatted because I started my one of my qua-

00:02:24   Well, I'll get to the MacBook Air

00:02:25   I tried just playing music super loudly and turn the speakers all the way up and put my ear up to it to see how

00:02:30   good the speakers were and

00:02:31   That was I was instructed, you know, please please ask the demo people to do that rather than doing it yourself

00:02:37   But otherwise, yeah, I didn't I don't think I committed any other faux pas in the demo areas

00:02:43   Before we get started though non-rev guy makes an excellent point

00:02:48   I almost forgot to ask what is the count of believe shirts that you yourself have noticed?

00:02:52   I have not seen any believe shirts. I have seen ATP shirts

00:02:56   Oh, that's good, but I have not I have not yet seen the belief shirt now

00:03:01   I actually brought a belief shirt with me

00:03:02   I have not yet worn it because it didn't fit with my keynote outfit, but I will

00:03:07   Now I feel like I kind of feel like I don't need to wear it anymore. But but we'll see we'll see

00:03:11   Well, there's plenty there. I got a lot of pictures of people at

00:03:14   WWDC

00:03:16   Sitting in the audience watching the big screen the whole nine yards plus a bunch of people in front of the big rainbow Apple logo

00:03:23   So they're probably Apple employees. So the shirts are there

00:03:25   I should I think it's also it's also important to disclose state of the knowledge

00:03:29   This this is what we this is the time of day and like what what has been revealed so far what we know as we record

00:03:35   this so

00:03:36   Right now we're recording this on keynote Eve after State of the Union. That means we have not seen any other sessions

00:03:43   So any details are revealed in sessions? We haven't seen those yet

00:03:47   the

00:03:49   Vision OS

00:03:50   SDK isn't even out yet and won't be out. I think until they said later this month

00:03:53   So none of us even tried the simulator of that. We have no idea

00:03:56   I have no idea how any of the apps how any of the SDKs work yet?

00:03:59   Besides what was what was announced in the State of the Union?

00:04:01   I have not had time to pour through the documentation and everything and even like, you know

00:04:05   Browse mass it on to see what everyone else has uncovered

00:04:07   I've gotten almost none of that because you know, the logistics of being here are very weird and different

00:04:13   And it's hard to get it's hard to catch up on the internet and catch up in real life stuff at the same time

00:04:19   So I assume the two of you have have beaten me in that department

00:04:23   But yeah only a tiny bit. Yeah, so that's so anyway

00:04:27   So we there's probably a lot that's gonna be unveiled in the next couple of days with session videos and stuff that we have not

00:04:32   Yet seen and of course since none of us have any experience yet with the headset, you know

00:04:37   It's hard to give first impressions

00:04:38   I have I have spoken to some people who have used it and I've asked a lot of questions about it

00:04:42   Which we'll get to later. So yeah, let's let's get going keynote order

00:04:47   Alright, so Tim comes out and says the biggest announcements ever at WWDC

00:04:52   I feel like that was a qualified cut like biggest amounts and ever was probably the iPhone but the qualifier at

00:04:57   WBC I think gives him a pass for that

00:05:00   You can just say biggest ever all the time. It's in marketing. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, I don't know

00:05:05   I think it's fine. I don't have a problem with it. But John Ternus comes out for a moment

00:05:10   He says the m2 MacBook Air according to Apple's world's best-selling laptop

00:05:14   Then we got Kate Bergeron who's talking about a new MacBook Air

00:05:17   15.3 inches

00:05:20   I'm this is not a computer for me personally, but I'm super excited that this is a thing

00:05:24   I think this is a great idea. I think this will probably sell really well

00:05:27   And I think it's filling a hole in their lineup right now. So this is this is two thumbs up for me

00:05:31   Yeah, they did the straightforward thing

00:05:33   It's the it's the 13 inch but 15 inches nothing about it is different

00:05:37   with the exception of the battery which is about 21% bigger and

00:05:41   The screen area where there's about 21% more of it and interestingly for those extra bits that you get

00:05:48   Exactly the same rated battery life according to Apple

00:05:51   So all that extra battery is going to power all that extra screen and that's it very straightforward. The pricing looks

00:05:59   Good ish right? Like it's it's not you know, $1,800. It's not pressing up against MacBook Pro levels

00:06:06   It's what a hundred or two more than $200 more than the the 13 inch because they lowered the 13 inch

00:06:12   Yeah, when you match it spec for spec, it's only a hundred bucks more like because it does it

00:06:15   It's a $200 entry price difference

00:06:17   But it but the entry 13 inch has some of the cores cut the other thing that it with the 15 inch with the extra space

00:06:23   Provided to them as they put more speakers

00:06:25   It's got six speakers instead of the four on the 13 inch and it's got force cancelling woofers

00:06:30   Which I think maybe the 13 inch doesn't have I'm not sure but anyway

00:06:33   They had more room and they put more speakers in they didn't put more keyboard in because that's not a thing that Apple does

00:06:37   But the keyboard doesn't look ridiculous. So it's fine

00:06:40   This is the first time they've had a 15 inch laptop that doesn't have speaker grille holes in the side

00:06:44   So the side of like the side panels next to the like the little margins next to the next to the keyboard are just flat

00:06:49   Metal looks kind of weird at that size like if because we're just not accustomed to seeing it

00:06:53   I I will say, you know having played with it briefly

00:06:56   First of all, it feels great. You pick it up

00:06:59   It's extremely light then it feels very similar to the 15 inch really or to the 13 inch MacBook Air

00:07:05   So which is a very good thing because that that thing feels amazing

00:07:07   It really does feel like you're just using the same computer but bigger

00:07:10   I try getting an idea of how good the speakers were as I mentioned in the hands-on thing

00:07:14   It's a little hard to tell it's a loud room

00:07:16   But my impression was they didn't seem like they were that much better than 13 inch speakers. Honestly, I think overall it's

00:07:23   It's a very very good computer overall don't buy it for the speakers

00:07:26   but but overall like this is the this is exactly what it had to be a really great overall computer for almost anybody if

00:07:35   You want a little bit bigger version than the 13 inch now, you have more screen space and etc

00:07:40   So I you know same ports same everything else same trade-offs of which honestly there are very few trade-offs in this product

00:07:46   and I think it really

00:07:48   Broadens up the lineup like now you don't have to spend what was before

00:07:54   $100 to get a screen bigger than 14 inches like that's that was a huge gap in the lineup that is now filled by this so

00:08:01   Very very happy with this launch. It looks great. It feels great. It will probably work very very well

00:08:06   And I think it's this is gonna be the right computer for a ton of people. Yeah, I'm really impressed by this

00:08:13   It looks really good

00:08:14   And I think it's worth mentioning that the 13 inch MacBook Air with the m1 processor now under $1,000 by a dollar

00:08:21   But under $1,000. All right, so we move on to Jennifer Manu introduces the max studio

00:08:26   We've got a new max studio with the m2 max and the appearance

00:08:30   This is the debut right of the m2 ultra with its ultra fusion interposer 24 cores

00:08:35   76 core GPU 32 core neural engine and up to 192 gigs of RAM

00:08:41   Which is half again more than the m1 ultra which is exciting and John maybe you can translate this for me

00:08:47   There's new HDMI that supports 8k and 240 Hertz. Is that like some new version of HDMI that I haven't dug into it again with the

00:08:54   HDMI versioning

00:08:56   If it just said HDMI 2.1, that means nothing you have to look at the fine fine print

00:09:00   But I'll take Apple at its word that it supports this. I'm not sure what you'd connect it to exactly

00:09:05   But the interesting thing about this product is so much for the rumors that they're skipping a generation with the max studio

00:09:12   Nope, just straightforward upgrade just like the head of them on ultra and this has the m2 ultra and the m2 ultra

00:09:17   Looks exactly like you think about one if they could even like reuse the animations

00:09:23   Oh the two m2 max is coming together and the interposer connects them and the whole nine yards exactly what we thought

00:09:28   So that's great. Can we reuse our shirt designs?

00:09:31   Can we just like put like, you know

00:09:32   Put some duct tape over the one that forms like a little two out of duct tape and just wear the same shirt

00:09:35   We could but I'm not sure we will

00:09:39   I as I snarked on mastodon

00:09:42   I think I missed the part of the keynote where they said and an all new cooling system and I didn't say that today

00:09:49   No, they sure didn't because that's the main thing that I want out of the max studio for all we know it could have one

00:09:54   Maybe they revised it but we don't know we'll have to wait until people start getting these and review them

00:09:59   Because that was the one weakness with the max studio

00:10:02   It did it just it made a little bit more noise than we thought it should especially, you know

00:10:07   I have the m1 max max studio and

00:10:10   They make a laptop with that same exact SOC and the laptop makes less noise and the max studio is substantially larger

00:10:17   So that is disappointing. So we'll see how they did on the m2 max studios

00:10:22   But I mean worst case scenario I imagined will be the same as it was I can't imagine it being worse

00:10:27   I hope it's better, but they didn't say anything about it. So

00:10:30   Overall though like, you know, so assuming that hopefully that they improve the thermals

00:10:35   This is exactly the kind of update that we want them to do to pro hardware. It's a boring spec bump upgrade

00:10:41   Like that's exactly what they they didn't do reliably for so many years

00:10:46   So I'm really even though this is not like a massively news making product

00:10:50   I'm really happy they did this because it shows this was not just a one-off

00:10:54   They are committed to it and as we get to the Mac Pro in a minute

00:10:58   it shows like it's very clear what the role of this product is and

00:11:02   You know and frankly, I think it really holds its own against the Mac Pro in a few ways

00:11:06   so

00:11:07   With that said I loved when they announced they were you know

00:11:10   The the present the presenter was like we're gonna talk about our pro products quote starting with Mac studio

00:11:15   At that point we knew oh boy

00:11:19   This is just part one of the pro products. So part two John. Sorry Casey

00:11:26   It's Mac Pro day

00:11:29   Do you guys need me for the next two hours because I'm gonna go take a nap or something

00:11:32   so I think what's interesting about this is

00:11:34   first of all, the rumor mill had this all wrong in terms of like

00:11:39   Release timing release likelihood it shocked me when not only were that we're getting the Mac Pro today

00:11:45   But that you can order it today and it ships next week

00:11:48   Along with the Mac studio and the MacBook Air like all three of these Macs are ready to order now and shipping like really

00:11:56   Really soon. It's not you know end of the year tricks. Nothing like that. So

00:12:00   John

00:12:02   What do you think of this new Mac Pro? I have some thoughts that which I'm sure I'll get to but what do you think?

00:12:06   Now we talked about this computer for so long

00:12:09   And one of the other frequent topics of conversation is how would this be differentiated from an M2 ultra Mac studio?

00:12:17   Which very early conversations we just assumed was coming and then the rumors came that maybe the M2 ultra Mac studio isn't going to come

00:12:25   And that we had new rounds of conversations about how does that change the Mac Pro so on and so forth?

00:12:30   And the reason we kept having these conversations is ever since the rumor that the sort of the quad

00:12:35   SOC thing was dead which were basically like twice as big as an M2 ultra like to M2 ultra is combined somehow ever since the

00:12:42   rumor of that thing

00:12:43   Being dead and not be not shipping at all

00:12:45   We were trying to find out how the Mac Pro would be differentiated as a product from a hypothetical or real

00:12:54   ultra of Mac studio and we were struggling to think what the answer to that could be and

00:13:00   Apple's answer was one of the things that we discussed over and over again and every time we discussed it we said

00:13:06   Yeah, but that's not great. Well, guess what? That's what they did

00:13:10   Ultra in a Mac Pro case

00:13:14   With as far as we know right now

00:13:17   No support for third-party GPUs. It's got a whole bunch of slots into which you can put

00:13:23   Things that go in slots that are not GPUs. None of them. None of them are ever MPX slots

00:13:29   They're just playing old PCIe slides

00:13:31   It's the new version PC version for whatever and they have 16x slots any of the X slots like the PCI slots are fine

00:13:37   but

00:13:39   That's it, right? It is

00:13:41   Just an a Mac studio in a way way bigger case. Now. What do you get for your way bigger case?

00:13:46   Well, first of all, I think you get a pretty cool looking case. That's

00:13:48   thing number one

00:13:50   Second you can put some more stuff in there. If you look at the insides of the case, you can see there's room for

00:13:56   Basically anything you could make a little house in there

00:14:00   You could put hard drives in there like like spinning hard drives. I have spinning hard drives in my Mac Pro

00:14:05   You can put spinning hard drives

00:14:06   I would imagine in that Mac Pro if you buy an expensive bent piece of metal and you shove it in the right spot and you'll

00:14:11   Be able to not hard drives you can by the way

00:14:13   I verified that so that the the SATA ports are still in there and I and they still are supporting that metal bracket thing that

00:14:18   You bought the bent piece of metal. Yeah, like I

00:14:20   Recognize the arrangement of screws from having put the thing in so that that that parts the same there is the SATA part

00:14:25   There's an internal USB port for like dongles and you know all that stuff

00:14:29   And that's something you can't do with the Mac studio

00:14:32   And of course you've got a bunch of slots and that's how Apple pitches this said here you go

00:14:36   If you want a bunch of slots that you need to put in

00:14:38   We sell a computer with those slots and here's what you can put them and they showed a bunch of cards

00:14:43   It was like you can put you know

00:14:45   IO cards in there weird, you know fiber channel things you could you know?

00:14:51   storage cards video input cards

00:14:54   They have made a big point of saying like if you have like a bunch of eight

00:14:56   24 8k video streams streaming into this thing each one of them going into like a card right and

00:15:01   that the SOC was powerful enough to process them all right and

00:15:06   So that is the the pitch for this computer

00:15:09   It's like an m2 Mac studio with it with an m2 ultra in it

00:15:13   Except you can put cards in it as long as they're not GPUs and by the way, you can also put some internal storage, right?

00:15:18   That is not a particularly compelling

00:15:22   Product unless you have one of those specific needs if you remember the previous Mac Pro

00:15:27   You could do all that stuff and also you could stuff it to the gills with GPUs and the previous Mac Pro was kind of designed

00:15:34   A lot of money was spent making it so you could stuff it to the gill with GPUs with those MPX slots

00:15:39   Which is Apple proprietary thing and cost more money and takes more power and Apple itself sold many

00:15:45   third-party cards in those big MPX modules that you could stuff in there and now I'm not but Apple upgraded those cards over time so

00:15:51   You could you could configure which cards which GPUs you wanted and as new GPUs came out Apple and they're sort of lazy way

00:15:57   They normally do did eventually offer newer and better versions and you could buy them aftermarket

00:16:02   That was a big part of the Mac Pro that is now completely gone

00:16:08   You cannot add GPU grunt to this machine

00:16:11   You get the grunt that you buy it with it's in the SOC and that's it as far as we can tell

00:16:15   And I think you know in the PCI slots, you could probably put a PC GPU in there

00:16:20   But I'm not sure you'd be able to find the power headers for it like on the motherboard and there's certainly there's no MPX module

00:16:26   Type stuff and then you need a separate cooler on the thing

00:16:28   You know again the case is cavernous that the pictures they showed of it are a little bit comical because it is just almost entirely

00:16:34   Empty space there is the big block for the cooler for the the the m2 ultra and I would assume this thing will be just

00:16:40   As quiet as the you know

00:16:41   If not more quiet than the Intel one

00:16:43   Because got gigantic fans in the front of it which look to be about the same and all its cooling is an m2 ultra

00:16:49   Which is apparently able to be cooled in a tiny Mac studio case, right?

00:16:52   but the the sales proposition for this thing is

00:16:56   Take our target audience for the Intel Mac Pro cut some big portion of it out and what you've got left

00:17:04   Is the market for the Mac Pro and that makes me worry about this product because it's not like the Mac Pro was selling in

00:17:10   Huge numbers. I don't know what percentage of the market they've eliminated by not supporting third-party GPUs

00:17:15   But I'm gonna say it's surely double digits and possibly

00:17:18   Even bigger than that, so they're further narrowing the market for this product. Then we look at the price

00:17:26   All right, you do get some stuff over the m2 ultra and assuming you can

00:17:32   Keep you know, as soon as you have space for this monster and you don't mind hang up this gigantic thing around

00:17:36   You know, you don't get the GPUs, but hey you do get some stuff over the the Mac studio

00:17:42   How much more do you pay for that privilege and the answer is a lot

00:17:47   If you similarly configure a Mac studio and an m2 ultra

00:17:52   Mac Pro and an m2 ultra Mac studio the Delta in price

00:17:57   Hovers around three grand every configuration I could find it's exactly three grand. Yeah, I didn't do it

00:18:02   I didn't do every configuration of the Sun, but I did a bunch of them. They always came out to three grand, right?

00:18:05   So for three grand you're getting the ability to have internal

00:18:09   Spinning discs internal SSD is the ability to have expansion cards and you could put more USB ports on there

00:18:15   You could put an internal PCI

00:18:16   Express card NVMe cards like the ability to put those cards in there and you know and quieter fans

00:18:23   Don't forget more Thunderbolt ports. Yes, you do get more Thunderbolt ports. That's kind of you get more put a boat standard

00:18:29   And also you could probably add more to the thing right? So no, but you've forgotten something very important

00:18:33   What's that? I verified with Apple that not only does it still support wheels? Oh the wheels

00:18:39   But you can even use the same wheels from the previous Mac Pro if you want to because the case has not changed

00:18:46   Oh, I didn't I didn't look at that. Let me just peek at that now

00:18:49   Did you happen to see if they fixed the little bar at the bottom so that you have to take out all the the wires?

00:18:54   Before you take the case off. I'm guessing it's the same because like the case really is

00:18:58   Unchanged like it's it's the exact same enclosure

00:19:01   Yeah

00:19:02   and this and this makes us like so the case being changed is not a big deal like there's a reason I made the shirt with

00:19:07   The the 2019 Mac Pro on it because this is such an expensive case and they spent so long designing it

00:19:11   There's no way they're gonna use it for a single computer even if they don't really have

00:19:16   The guts to fill this case anymore like it's very easy to show a packed

00:19:22   2019 Mac Pro if you take the case off my computer and you look inside that you're like boy that thing is packed because every

00:19:27   Inch of it is filled with something practically

00:19:28   I have almost every slot filled

00:19:30   Granted some of them are filled space wise and not you know card wise because I have these double and triple height cards

00:19:34   I've got spinning discs in there

00:19:36   It's just there's tons of stuff in there this thing as again as I snarked on Mastodon like the universe

00:19:42   It's mostly empty space you buy this thing and it's the fault

00:19:45   Configuration it's a tiny little m2 ultra SOC shoved in the corner and then just nothing just literally nothing

00:19:53   Just this tiny little quarter depth card with the IO and just totally empty space two

00:20:00   Gigantic fans are just taking air from the front of this thing pushing them through empty space and injecting at the back

00:20:07   There's nothing in their path. What are they cooling? They're not cooling anything

00:20:11   it is

00:20:14   Extremely expensive for the marginal extra utility that you get

00:20:18   And this you know part of this is the problem we were talking about you, you know

00:20:22   They don't have an expandable RAM story. They don't have an expandable GPU power story. It's all on that SOC plus PCI slots. I

00:20:29   Still think they should have made this computer

00:20:32   But I'm not worried so much about whether or not it appeals to me because who cares I'm worried about

00:20:36   The saw the market for this computer is being further narrowed

00:20:41   How narrow does the market for this computer need to be before the powers that be at Apple that always want to kill this computer?

00:20:47   Eventually win and say there's no reason for us to be selling this look at the sales numbers

00:20:51   2019 sold X amount that then the 2023 one sold like X divided by seven and this thing is so expensive

00:20:58   I think that also explains possibly although I haven't done the specs

00:21:02   Why this thing's base configuration is so much more expensive than the old one

00:21:07   Didn't it go up like a thousand bucks for the base config it did. Yeah

00:21:10   I mean, I you know from 2019 to 2023 the base config going up a thousand dollars in this machine

00:21:15   It would make a lot more sense to me if I could look at the component prices and explain it

00:21:20   But Apple isn't paying Intel's margins on Xeons here

00:21:23   I know the m2 ultra is expensive chip, but we have a direct comparison to that's exact same SOC in the Mac studio

00:21:29   It just it looks like less of a bargain than it was before and it has less of a reason to exist and Apple didn't

00:21:37   Do anything?

00:21:39   Not gonna say anything interesting didn't do any of the the seven things that we discussed that they could have done

00:21:44   Oh, you know a tiered approach to RAM some way to expand that expandable GPUs from third parties expandable GPUs from Apple anything like that

00:21:51   They were forced to tout things like oh, it's like having seven afterburner cards

00:21:55   Like but that's the same as the Mac studio everything you're bragging about is also in the Mac studio

00:21:59   Oh, and of course if they had had the quad chip, right if they had that giant monster

00:22:03   That was apparently too expensive for them to make it the volumes they wanted

00:22:06   There was like the strength of 2m 2 ultras easy to explain the value proper proposition there with there would be things then that were literally

00:22:12   Close to twice as fast on this computer as there on a Mac studio and you know granted the price would have been even higher

00:22:18   But but you know, you would have had double the GPU grunt as well. That is a much easier machine to explain

00:22:25   Especially since as we did the math on ages ago if it had had the quad SOC thing in there

00:22:32   Its GPU grunt would be in the conversation with the very best PC GPUs

00:22:38   The m2 ultra is not in the conversation with the very best

00:22:42   PC GPUs, it's just not it doesn't have enough power which is fine when you're talking about the Mac studio or something

00:22:49   But for a machine this big and is expensive

00:22:52   Like it's forget it like the the Nvidia 4090 crushes this thing and that cards been out for ages, right?

00:22:58   And there's nothing you can do to change that there's you can't spend any more money on a Mac to make it competitive with

00:23:04   Existing for that have existed for like practically a year

00:23:07   High-end PC GPUs that is very disappointing

00:23:11   Like so that takes that entire market and sort of like, you know

00:23:14   It makes them all look at the back studio because like what they'd be like, what am I buying this for?

00:23:18   So I know, you know, we've got the bleep shirts, you know, but they did introduce the product

00:23:23   The product is not dead the product being dead would be the worst case scenario

00:23:26   But I feel like this is like the second worst case scenario

00:23:28   Not because I think this is necessarily a bad machine because the people who want it

00:23:32   I think Apple should make it but I don't think I think it narrows the market too much

00:23:36   I don't think that enough people are this is enough people are gonna say this is the machine for me

00:23:42   To sustain this product like it is now now granted, you know, whatever whatever the quad ship that went down the tubes

00:23:48   You know tomorrow, you know next year's another year you have to us another year, you know

00:23:51   We'll see how this goes in the future. They just keep upgrading this to the m3 ultra and for ultra

00:23:57   Or do they eventually make the quad chip because if you're gonna make the quad chip, this is the case for it

00:24:01   It's got the space. It's got the cooling and the quad chip

00:24:04   Justifies this computer way more than the m2 ultra does so

00:24:09   Yeah, that's you know, I'm the more I dwell on the Mac Pro announcement today the more

00:24:15   I'm not gonna say disappointed the more kind of

00:24:19   Fearful and sad I am which is not the vibe. I was going for with all the believe shirts. So I

00:24:24   Don't know. I'm I have very mixed feelings about this computer

00:24:29   And by the way, well, I mean we'll discuss this in a little bit of a person

00:24:32   They are free to chose but I just do not think this is the machine for me

00:24:35   Which again is who cares if it's a machine for me?

00:24:37   I'm not that don't even need this one, but it doesn't it doesn't there's nothing into that makes me want to buy it

00:24:42   Pointlessly like I bought the 2019 pointlessly. Yeah, the internal storage will get you looking at no not for $3,000

00:24:49   It won't know that's that's the thing it won't for the internal storage won't get me for that amount of money

00:24:54   Yeah, you could you could replace all the hard drives you have with nice SSDs for $3,000

00:24:57   Yeah, it's

00:25:02   We'll get the Apple's up

00:25:04   Upgrade price Apple's prices for its like storage upgrades and RAM upgrades and everything continued to be comically

00:25:11   high like they always have them but just

00:25:14   As I said like for three terabytes of SSD space they want $1,000 three terabytes of the very fast

00:25:20   SSD does not cost $1,000

00:25:23   It doesn't cost half that less than half that and it's disappointing to those prices like that

00:25:28   Especially on a machine this expensive because for me, you know and for anybody who wants lots of storage

00:25:33   It really jacks up the price of these things and I felt like I when I priced out my Intel one

00:25:38   Yes, it was horrendously expensive

00:25:40   but I felt like it was justified because what I was getting was a powerhouse machine that has no equal in the Mac line and

00:25:46   It's you're not getting that with this

00:25:48   You're not getting you can't buy from Apple a powerhouse machine that has no equal in terms of capabilities

00:25:52   You can buy this thing and then you can buy stuff from third parties and shove it in there

00:25:56   And then that has no equal like all those, you know video input cards or fiber channel cards or something like that

00:26:01   But you can't just buy that from Apple

00:26:03   It's a bunch of third-party cards that you have to shove in there and you have to know which cards you want to put in

00:26:06   There and you have to need them

00:26:08   It's I don't know. I'm

00:26:10   I'm a little bit a little bit sad about this computer. Yeah, I feel like when you when you look at this computer

00:26:16   You I wonder like when two years ago when John Turner said the Mac Pro is a story for another day

00:26:22   I bet this is not what he had in mind

00:26:24   Like I bet this is not what was originally planned for the outcome of this product

00:26:29   But when he made that announcement, I think the quad was already dead

00:26:32   So I think he knew that this is the thing that was coming

00:26:35   You know, it is what it is like I I this is why it might be hard to fight for this machine internally because

00:26:41   You can see it why internally they would say why do we even bother doing this?

00:26:45   Just keeping the machine and the name alive is probably worthwhile

00:26:48   but it's a tough fight because once the quads can to everyone saying why are we even doing this and you're like

00:26:52   No, we just got to do it. Like maybe the maybe we'll get the quad in the m3 or m4 generation, but

00:26:58   It's rough. It's an uphill battle

00:27:00   Yeah, and I have to wonder like, you know, is this the machine that's that was you know

00:27:05   that got through all the committees and you know as John mentioned like, you know,

00:27:08   we've we've kind of heard there like factions that don't want this machine to exist inside the company and factions that do and it almost

00:27:14   Seems like this is kind of what came out of the meat grinder from people who want this product to die

00:27:19   Because it is it had it really is

00:27:22   Cutting down the market by so much for for this product and and you know in addition to you know

00:27:27   The capabilities losing the high RAM support the GPU support in addition for all that

00:27:31   They also raised the price and made it even less compelling like I feel like

00:27:36   You know

00:27:37   If people wanted to kill this product inside the company

00:27:39   They would do exactly this release something that shrinks its market down

00:27:43   Raise the price by so much that everyone else buys the Mac Studio and then in a couple years say look all customers have spoken

00:27:49   Everyone just buys the Mac Studio. So we'll just kill the Mac Pro and just keep making the Mac Studio like that's

00:27:53   Whereas like, you know, obviously if if they gave this product, you know a little more capability to set it apart

00:28:00   Maybe that would keep its market a little healthier, but the way it is now I

00:28:03   Can't see this product living very long unless

00:28:06   This is only okay. We couldn't get the giant quad chip with the m2 generation maybe with the m3 generation

00:28:14   Maybe they can get it then and so maybe this product is kind of a like stopgap to fill the slot in the lineup and get

00:28:20   It onto Apple Silicon at all

00:28:21   And then maybe down the road they release the quad chip in a future version of this product that I think

00:28:27   Could keep this product alive in some way even that's gonna be a very small market

00:28:32   Especially if the price difference is what it is

00:28:34   But at least it's a market and the way it is now

00:28:37   The only market for this as far as I can tell is people who need a bunch of those PCI capture cards

00:28:43   Like for you know for audio and video specialized use that's who's gonna buy this or IO cards or something like that

00:28:48   But yeah, like if they need cards that are not GPUs, which is a market

00:28:52   It does exist as part of what this machine serves. I just wonder how big a percentage of the market is

00:28:57   And by the way, I think like this machine needs a GPU story forget about the cards

00:29:02   It needs it needs some story with GPU that is not it's exactly the same as the max studio because that's not a good story

00:29:08   if we're a computer that's like seven times the size and

00:29:11   $3,000 more expensive and I know not everybody needs it, but it's just

00:29:14   It already even it needs a CPU story like it just using literally the exact same SOC

00:29:20   Max are so defined by these SOCs in the in the Apple silicon era

00:29:24   that you can't give your $3,000 more expensive computer literally the same SOC as

00:29:29   The cheaper one and say well, we'll make it up in you know

00:29:33   Expansion and storage owned by the way a lot of things that you could expand you can't expand anymore

00:29:38   So looking on Apple's accessories website for the 2023 Mac Pro and I will attempt to link this in the show notes

00:29:45   There is a $50 Belkin lock adapter a hundred and thirty dollar

00:29:49   Thunderbolt 4 Pro cable a hundred sixty dollar version of the same the pro feet kit for three hundred dollars

00:29:55   the promised Pegasus eight terabyte internal storage enclosure

00:30:00   I am so this is just enclosure for four hundred dollars and

00:30:03   Our final option is the seven hundred dollar

00:30:06   Apple Mac Pro wheels kit that is the sum total of the accessories that are apparently for the Mac Pro

00:30:11   You can also buy SS the expansions that are even more expensive than when you cool then put them out

00:30:17   So like I said before if going from one terabyte SSD to four terabyte SSDs basically adding three terabytes of SSDs a thousand dollar option

00:30:24   But if you try to buy that same upgrade aftermarket as opposed to just ordering it when you order your computer

00:30:31   I think it's seventeen hundred dollars. So if you'd like the little module upgrades if you buy them from Apple, they're even more expensive

00:30:36   It makes it makes the machine ridiculous

00:30:39   and again

00:30:39   I get I choke down those prices when I

00:30:41   Configure this machine because I felt like I was getting a machine that really had no equal in the Mac line that it was more

00:30:47   Powerful and in everything and every aspect and that's what a machine that cost this much money should be on the date of its introduction

00:30:53   It should be able to do literally everything better than every other Mac with the possible exception of single core performance

00:31:00   If you get a super high core count or whatever, but this Mac Pro does not cross that line

00:31:06   Mmm, I'm sorry John. I was excited for you. I genuinely I know it's kind of my shtick to poop on the Mac Pro

00:31:14   But I was excited to see it and I was excited for you, but I understand what you're saying

00:31:18   And yeah, I mean it was it wasn't an exciting introduction

00:31:20   they didn't tout anything about how fast it is and how capable it is that things they tapped over like the things that are also

00:31:25   true of the the

00:31:27   Mac studio with the m2 ultra and that's that's not a good Mac Pro introduction. You got to be able to show it

00:31:32   Doing something like even a contrived thing show it doing something that other max can't do and they just can't they mentioned the thing about

00:31:39   The 24 streams of 8k, but they didn't show it doing that and they don't sell any of those cards anyway

00:31:44   So it was very weird and for the people in the chat room asking what does this mean for me and my computer upgrade things?

00:31:49   Well, the first thing that it means is that I'm not buying this computer

00:31:53   The second things that it means is so what computer are you buying? You're gonna get em to max studio something like that

00:31:58   I think I'm going to sit out the m2 generation

00:32:02   I think I'm going to hold tight with the computer that I have for a while longer and when the m3

00:32:08   Ultra max studio comes out or maybe even the m3 max max studio comes out that will probably be the machine that I replace this with

00:32:16   Another thing by the way, they could have made this announcement more exciting is an XDR replacement

00:32:21   Of course, they didn't have that either right? So no like, you know 8k 6k display with promotion something like that

00:32:26   so in the absence of the things that the Mac Pro brings

00:32:30   Me trying to get like at the ultra so I can get a little bit more GPU. It's like well, who are you kidding?

00:32:34   you're still not in the ballpark of

00:32:38   PC high-end GPUs

00:32:40   So why waste your money to go from 50% to 65%?

00:32:45   Right, like, you know and you know, it does cost a lot of extra money. So we'll see I'm right now

00:32:50   I'm saying my next computer will probably be an

00:32:52   M3 something something max studio next year when it comes out

00:32:57   Unless they massively revised the Mac Pro, although given these prices I shuddered to think how much a quad

00:33:04   Pro cost but again, at least the quad would be like look it's got double the number of cores

00:33:09   It's got double the amount of GPU and here are a bunch of benchmarks like whatever you do as long as it's not

00:33:15   literally single-threaded Xcode compiling playing a game grinding through

00:33:20   processing something like, you know using machine learning like the quad would have

00:33:24   Done really well on those things and so maybe you could help justify its outrageous price, but that computer doesn't exist

00:33:31   So I'm eyeing an M3 Mac studio of some kind as a replacement in the meantime

00:33:36   I will continue to enjoy another year of

00:33:38   Decent GPU power and the ability to boot into Windows and play Windows games

00:33:43   Someone from inside your house sent me a text a moment ago ten more years

00:33:49   That how you please but I almost laughed out loud in the middle of you guys saying something not funny

00:33:56   Oh on that front, by the way, did you see people saying huh?

00:34:00   the Mac OS 14

00:34:02   Beta doesn't have an Intel version. I'm like, oh no. Oh, is that right? I did not know that

00:34:08   No, they were just talking about what betas are appearing the Apple website

00:34:11   I'm assuming that they would have mentioned if it was dropping Intel support

00:34:14   I don't think it is just a question of like I think someone tried to go download it and I think the the Apple silicon

00:34:19   One was up first or something like that. Yeah, but that it but that's in the back of my mind

00:34:23   We're just like well how you know, unlike my past computer that I could use for ten years

00:34:26   I can't use this for ten years because Mac OS is gonna drop Intel support before that so

00:34:30   I'm watching out for that. Yeah, I bet you probably have like one or two more years at least but you don't have ten

00:34:37   That's for sure. No. Yeah. Yeah. So before we move on

00:34:40   How do you how do you feel overall about the Mac specific hardware that was announced today?

00:34:46   I mean for me, I think is pretty darn good. Like I'm pleased that the Mac Pro is still something in their lineup

00:34:51   I totally understand what you're coming where you're coming from John

00:34:54   I echo your sentiments that make perfect sense, but I'll take this over nothing personally and I think you would probably agree

00:34:59   So I think this looks good. You mean the Mac studio like Marco said earlier, you know a boring update works for me

00:35:05   The new MacBook Air cheaper previous MacBook Airs all good all across the board. I give this two thumbs up Marco

00:35:11   What do you think? So first of all, I think the the rumors were that we were getting no back hardware today

00:35:16   So this is this was all a pleasant surprise and especially as I mentioned earlier how they all ship next week

00:35:21   That's that's great. And that's that's a nice surprise

00:35:24   overall, you know the transition to Apple silicon has

00:35:27   It has it has omitted certain things at the very high end and that hurts the pro products, especially the Mac Pro

00:35:35   You know, that's what John is complaining about that like we it had in the Intel generations

00:35:40   It had higher capabilities and higher expansion potential than what the current ones have

00:35:45   You know relative to their up to their peers in the PC world

00:35:47   but

00:35:49   the

00:35:51   Number of or like the percentage of Apple's customers who need the super high-end configurations of these computers

00:35:57   Has also dramatically dropped in the Apple silicon era in part for reasons that are crappy like, you know

00:36:02   That they've kind of lost certain certain high-end or specialized markets, but mostly because what the Apple silicon era has done is

00:36:08   dramatically raised the floor of

00:36:11   What the low-end computers do, you know, if you look at that 15 inch MacBook Air, that's just the regular m2 chip

00:36:18   That's a twelve hundred dollar computer or 13

00:36:22   I guess that is an amazing computer and the vast majority of of

00:36:28   user types and like user

00:36:30   requirement types

00:36:32   That used to need the big desktop towers with the maximum cooling the maximum processors the maximum RAM the maximum

00:36:38   You know discs and stuff

00:36:40   Most people who use those towers five or ten years ago

00:36:45   Would be totally fine using a MacBook Air class computer today not because you know

00:36:50   Just things have gotten better over time, you know, just incrementally with tech but because

00:36:54   Even Apple's cheapest computers now as long as you give them enough RAM and disk space they can they can satisfy

00:37:00   Way more way higher percentage of people's needs then in previous

00:37:06   eras than those low-end laptops and those low-end computers

00:37:09   So it's a great story like the Apple silicon story is a great story for almost everyone

00:37:15   The only people who are kind of meh about it are

00:37:19   The very high-end users who want things like GPU slots and stuff like that or you know

00:37:24   Super high RAM like that kind of stuff or people who just want GPU power

00:37:28   Which we'll get to that when we talk about gaming in a little bit because it's not just the desire for third-party GPUs

00:37:32   It's like well

00:37:33   But I just want to play modern games at a reasonable frame rate and the the plain m2 with no suffix is not doing that

00:37:39   For you, that's true. But like ultimately, you know most PC gaming happens on PCs like that

00:37:45   That's the reality and it's like you said it's a self-fulfilling prophecy

00:37:48   If you stop it, stop shipping any computers that can play high-end games and there's then there's no high-end games for your platform

00:37:54   Well, but you know, it's not like high-end gaming was super healthy on the Mac in the Intel era

00:37:59   Oh, no, but if you thought it couldn't get worse

00:38:01   Yes, but you know ultimately PC gamers don't buy max PC gamers buy awesome gaming PCs and that's that's how to

00:38:09   Way better and way cheaper than anything Apple sells and so, you know that that market largely, you know

00:38:16   I don't think Apple cares too much about the market. They never have and I think you know separately from maybe maybe some headset stuff

00:38:22   I don't think they ever are gonna really push into that market very much and and I we will talk about that when we get to

00:38:26   The gaming portion of the keynote. Yeah. Yeah, and then have some some relevant stuff there

00:38:30   But but I still don't think it's gonna be a massive area for them just because the markets are so different

00:38:34   But you know overall the Mac I think the Mac is continues to be in a very very good place for almost everyone

00:38:41   I mean look I have the giant 16-inch but the reality is if I swapped out my 16 inch for that new 15 inch MacBook Air

00:38:48   much of the time I'm doing much of my work I would not notice and

00:38:53   That's really saying something like that

00:38:56   The fact is that even even they're like quote low-end computers are so good now and you can do you know?

00:39:03   The stuff that we used to that you used to quote require the high stuff video editing, you know

00:39:08   how it developer compilation stuff all of that stuff is

00:39:12   Surprisingly fast and capable even on the cheapest MacBook Air and that's so we're in an amazing place

00:39:18   Yes, the high end has suffered a little bit in terms of how high it can go

00:39:22   but the number of people in Apple's user base who need the high end keep shrinking and shrinking and shrinking because

00:39:29   Almost everyone's needs across way more industries and use cases than ever can now be solved with their cheapest computers

00:39:36   And that's an amazing place to be overall. Yep. I completely agree. Yeah, I think the the maxi introduced today are all you know

00:39:43   fine

00:39:46   Right, but the 15 inch is my favorite because they just pretty much nailed that one

00:39:51   They you know, it is exactly what they needed to make at a good price and you know, it's great the Mac studio

00:39:57   I'm I find myself suddenly very very interested in the insides of the Mac studio

00:40:02   like way more than I'm interested in the Mac Pro because I feel like that's going to be my computer and the Mac my

00:40:08   Future in the Mac line is gonna be Mac studios and I don't want one that makes weird fan noises, right?

00:40:12   Like it's not terrible. I have one here you put it on a desk

00:40:14   You can't hear it, but I don't want to put it under my desk. I want it to be anyway

00:40:17   Well, look you already have an XDR. You can do a desktop laptop. I can tell you it's a really good setup

00:40:22   No, I don't want that. I know

00:40:25   You're such an anti laptop ist. Yeah, I am

00:40:27   But yeah, I'm very interested in that. I'm but I'm glad that they bump the Mac studio, right?

00:40:32   I mean that's you know

00:40:34   I continue to think that the m2 line is like the m1 was a 10 out of 10

00:40:39   Right the whole m1 line 10 out of 10

00:40:41   Excellent. The m2 is like a 8.5 out of 10 because mostly because they didn't get it's not on a new process

00:40:47   I know it's like in the revised 5 nanometer, whatever blah blah

00:40:50   But when they go to 3 nanometer with the m3 that is going to be a bigger jump

00:40:55   So it's like m1 amazing. Holy cow. Can you believe it m2 small incremental improvement in m3?

00:41:00   I hope will be another jump and that will make all these computers, you know, even better than they are

00:41:05   Will the Mac Pro survive long enough to ever get a quad or a reason to exist?

00:41:10   I'm not sure but like I said, this makes me way more interested in and invested in

00:41:15   The Mac studio I want I want better for the Mac studio. I want a better cooling system

00:41:20   I want if I'm honest, I want a more interesting looking case and not that it's bad. It's fine, but it's certainly not interesting

00:41:27   It's a very humble looking case

00:41:30   Yeah, I know but it you know

00:41:32   I it could have more panache especially at the prices because the Mac City is not cheap like you can figure I

00:41:38   configured a reasonable Mac studio and it was you know, Oh

00:41:40   $6,800 like that's I mean, yeah, that's that's the Mac Pro like that

00:41:44   That's really for most people that is the Mac Pro. I know but for 100 bucks. I want a little more panache

00:41:49   Yeah, it looks like one of those like concrete brutalist buildings

00:41:52   It's like the Mac version of that

00:41:55   It's really just like a really beefy

00:41:58   Mac mini which is fine. But anyway, yeah, like

00:42:01   You know

00:42:02   the the Mac announcements are good and fine the Mac Pro really took a little bit of wind out of my sales and now I'm

00:42:07   Just gonna spend the next one to five years just fretting about that product even more

00:42:12   Well, if you want I mean the Apple will take other ways to take your thousands of dollars like they're offering some other interesting options

00:42:19   They're soon. They sure are

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00:44:22   Let's try to do our best to plow through software stuff iOS 17

00:44:32   Some interesting new stuff with contact posters, which is used in various places throughout iOS

00:44:38   Do you have does either one of you had no from any more people talking about this is?

00:44:42   The idea that I pick something and it gets shoved to other people. Yes

00:44:47   Yeah way that's the way I took it. Yeah, I would assume it's contacts only to prevent the you know

00:44:52   The problems that could result from that

00:44:54   But no but as in like, you know

00:44:56   The current system where you pick a contact thing and then everybody gets a stupid prompt on top of the screen says hey

00:45:00   So and so has an updated picture

00:45:02   Do you want to use it and you constantly have to dismiss it and carefully not pick it because you like your picture better

00:45:06   Right. Yep

00:45:07   Is this the same as that or is this something different?

00:45:10   Like does this just like shove it at people but it doesn't it doesn't offer to add it to their contacts

00:45:16   Like I like the idea of a bigger, you know

00:45:18   Picture that that you for to represent yourself to the world

00:45:22   So when you call somebody they can see your picture like a kind of a push type thing or something like that

00:45:27   but I feel like there's still this tension that wasn't really addressed in the explanation of this feature between

00:45:32   Do I get to pick the picture that I want for the person?

00:45:35   Does the person get the picture that they want for themselves and to give an example?

00:45:38   my daughter uses a

00:45:41   comically

00:45:43   mangled photo of me as the contact picture for me instead of the picture

00:45:47   That I would prefer and I think she would be mad if I overrode that with something I pushed her

00:45:51   Yes, as far as I know I haven't tried I don't have the beta installed in my it's been a day

00:45:56   As far as I can as far as I understood from the presentation

00:45:59   I think it is basically an expansion of that feature that like now you can specify this whole poster

00:46:06   But I would assume, you know again

00:46:07   I would assume that that like the receiving person probably has the option to not accept your customization

00:46:14   To prevent the chat roulette problem that could result from that

00:46:18   Yeah, but and I would assume it's somebody who has to be in your contacts already or who you've responded to this

00:46:22   You know the way the current system works is you get a random text from somebody

00:46:25   Nothing happens if you respond then it will tell you hey, do you want to use this person's updated photo and name?

00:46:31   You know, so it's probably something like that for new contacts, but I think for existing contacts again

00:46:36   I haven't tried yet. We'll know all this next week

00:46:38   But you know for just in contacts it probably there's probably some kind of approval and you know decline available process there

00:46:44   Yeah, I'm not sure

00:46:46   Messages is getting some love. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm skipping skipping ahead live voicemail is exciting

00:46:52   Although I would assume that's gonna require carrier support. I would guess no, it's just doing a transcription

00:46:57   Yeah, it seems like it actually has replaced carrier voicemail though. Like the way this works mechanically

00:47:02   It looks like your phone is answering every call

00:47:05   Even if you if you send it to voicemail, it seems like your phone is actually really answering it

00:47:09   Which I think is interesting

00:47:11   I I worry a little bit about

00:47:13   Will people or like telemarketers be able to tell the difference between?

00:47:18   This kind of thing picking up and a carrier thing picking up, you know, I worry a little bit about that

00:47:22   But it sure seems like it is it is taking on that whole responsibility directly on the phone

00:47:27   I like the example of you're in a meeting and you get a call

00:47:30   But you don't want to pick it up

00:47:32   but you're also gonna like it's bad enough when you get interrupted in a meeting and like you're looking down at your phone and

00:47:37   The person speaking knows you're not paying attention because you're looking to see who called

00:47:40   Not only you're now looking to see who called you're also staring at your phone to watch the transcription slowly appear

00:47:45   So you're paying even less attention to the meeting. So maybe not the best example, but you know, perhaps a useful feature

00:47:50   All right, then we got FaceTime which now has voicemail as well face mail

00:47:56   FaceMail Kim Beverett came up for messages which has search filters

00:48:01   It has I looked away when this was discussed

00:48:04   But my understanding is there's a button that will let you jump directly to the oldest message that you have not yet read

00:48:11   So this is basically a jump to unread thing

00:48:13   Which I am so excited about that'll be very very cool audio messages are transcribed for the six people in the world that use them

00:48:20   You can do location stuff in line if you are a complete worry wart like hello me. It's me. I'm the problem

00:48:28   It's me check-in is a thing now

00:48:31   And I don't know how one establishes that you need or want to check in or how you establish

00:48:35   That you're going to provide a check-in but one way or another it detects, you know

00:48:39   Whether or not you've gotten home or whatever place you're trying to travel to you and will automatically tell the person

00:48:44   That you're checking in with oh, you know Casey's arrived home safe and sound which I am pretty excited about

00:48:50   Wait doesn't doesn't this additionally Sherlock like through the grave your old?

00:48:55   The feet what was it called? I forgot Oh fast text. No, I was I think something else

00:49:01   Additionally Sherlock fast. Oh fast text has been Sherlock eight ways to Sunday. I mean, it's long

00:49:08   Yeah, this is this is dug up its grave and then reburied it deeper. Yeah, pretty much pretty much

00:49:12   And I thought you were talking about glimpse which is an app I used to

00:49:15   religiously use and I haven't used in a long time but

00:49:19   But maps has a similar feature and has for a couple years now where it lets you see, you know, somebody going down the road

00:49:25   Nevertheless

00:49:28   They also redid the messages UI a little bit

00:49:31   so now apparently there's like a plus button to the left of the text entry field where everything lives and it tries to be smarter about

00:49:38   What it presents there in what order etc, etc

00:49:40   Hallelujah on that we've talked about that for so many years and it's like oh because when ever since they hid the attached photo

00:49:45   under a second tap

00:49:48   You know and elevated the stupid like audio message, right?

00:49:51   You're like just you know, just give me a list of the things I use most frequently now

00:49:55   They've they've totally eliminated that part of the UI like it's there's not an extra row there

00:50:00   So you get more message space and everything's under a little plus and my impression from the thing is oh just sort by most recently

00:50:06   Use how do you it's a miracle amazing algorithm they could figure just

00:50:09   So many years for that

00:50:11   so I this I'm I was excited by this portion of the thing because the features they were saying like more sophisticated search and swipe to

00:50:17   Reply and a sane UI for doing message things have been so long coming but will have an outsized

00:50:24   Effect on my life. So I give this whole section a thumbs up even though kind of like marking is unread

00:50:29   It's things that they should have had ages ago better late than never. Yeah, this is all like, you know

00:50:34   Nice little everyday nice nicety features. I'm so happy doing this stuff

00:50:39   Yeah again, sure

00:50:40   They would have been great three years ago

00:50:41   But they're doing it now and like any kind of little improvement to messages that has such a massive

00:50:47   Impact on the world like that, you know messages is so big

00:50:51   It is probably the most used app on the iPhone globally period and so, you know

00:50:56   This is sucked like any little thing they do obviously

00:50:59   That's probably one of the reasons why they're fairly conservative with its feature set

00:51:02   Because the impact is quite large and you know, you don't want to get anything wrong

00:51:05   But I'm so happy to do and stuff like this little little good quality of life features

00:51:10   Yeah, I completely agree with you. However, real-time correction follow-up

00:51:13   My understanding is that messages is not as big a deal globally, but certainly here in the States

00:51:18   100% agreed I live in messages it is far in a way that I mean I'd have to look at the stats

00:51:24   But I've got to assume it is far in a way my most used app

00:51:27   So all these little quality of life improvements are excellent

00:51:30   We got some speaking of quality of life improvements. We got some airdrop updates

00:51:34   You can do name drop which I know some people are snarking on the name. I love that name

00:51:38   I think it's hilarious what you can name drop the NFC where you just basically bump your two iPhones together

00:51:44   Please don't bump them this I do wonder with their demos

00:51:47   This is gonna be an epidemic of people cracking each other's screens kind of like playing the Easter Egg game

00:51:51   Where you bang the eggs together to see which one breaks

00:51:53   Do not bang the back of your phone against the top front screen. Just everyone has cases. It'll be fine

00:52:00   Doesn't this doesn't this Sherlock an actual startup that was named bump wasn't that actually a thing something like that? Yeah, yeah

00:52:06   But they kept showing one over the top of another so it was like just I really hope I really hope this this happens with

00:52:13   Just proximity and not overlapping and clacking together

00:52:16   But it's like that was part of a larger airdrop update to where airdrop now

00:52:22   It's kind of it's more automatic when you just bring phones near each other

00:52:26   I wonder how that will work with Macs and you know non phone devices

00:52:30   because I frequently will airdrop something between a phone and a Mac or you know and usually phone to Mac and

00:52:36   And so I hope and sometimes me sometimes stiff, you know

00:52:39   So I hope that is better because right now it is

00:52:43   It's a very slow process to airdrop something from your phone to your faster than file sharing in the finder. That's true

00:52:51   That's not difficult. But yes, it's a very slow process

00:52:54   I'm hoping that's that with this

00:52:55   They've probably done some degree of rewriting here to enable all this cool stuff

00:52:59   I do wonder if people gonna be taking their phones like pressing it again up against their screen

00:53:03   It's like I'm sorry. There's nothing in that screen. That's gonna know the phone

00:53:05   Especially if you have a desktop you got to hold it near the Mac studio or something or if you have a laptop indicate

00:53:11   And like your little holster you got to take the phone and rub it against your laptop or something

00:53:15   Yeah, and also now airdrop now can continue the transfer over the internet if the phone leaves the range

00:53:23   During the transfer, which is that's pretty cool. Yeah, that is incredible

00:53:27   Yeah, now it's limited only to people who are signed into iCloud on their phones

00:53:31   So both the sender and the recipient need to be signed into iCloud

00:53:34   But yeah, you can start your airdrop transfer via NFC

00:53:37   and then it care you can do the negotiation with you via NFC and then you can walk away and

00:53:44   Apparently it will just magically get uploaded to iCloud and then transferred and then I presume deleted thereafter

00:53:50   Which is super cool and I'm super excited about that. Not just NFC, like airdrop does the the peer-to-peer Wi-Fi thing. Yes

00:53:56   Yeah, it uses that to to transfer

00:53:59   But I believe it uses ultra wide band to detect that super tight proximity

00:54:03   Yeah

00:54:03   And and so it's actually they'll be a good thing to check is like what models of phone does this work on?

00:54:08   Because you know if it's whatever they added the ultra wide band

00:54:11   I think it was like somewhere around like the iPhone 12 or 13 like somewhere around there ish

00:54:15   You know, so if phones older than that can't do it then we know it's using you know

00:54:19   The the you one chip or whatever. We got some keyboard and dictation stuff

00:54:24   Allegedly, they've really really honest. I promise seriously you guys I swear it's fixed this time

00:54:32   Autocorrect, it's gonna work this time. I swear I promise

00:54:36   But the best part possibly my favorite moment of this entire presentation

00:54:41   Including the debut of the vision Pro. Well, this Craig's saying those moments when you just want to type a ducking word

00:54:49   So good. I lost it

00:54:51   Oh my gosh, the best thing was he said that you know the key like you have to teach Apple

00:54:57   What the curse words are, you know

00:54:58   It says you when you want to type the ducking word you type it and then the keyboard will learn it, too

00:55:03   So we get to you know, corrupt our phones basically

00:55:07   The words that Apple Apple walks in and pretend they don't know I wish I didn't remember all the same pitches

00:55:13   I heard about the the previous version of autocorrect

00:55:17   Oh, we've improved it so much and it's great and it will learn involved blonde. That was not the case

00:55:20   So they said all the right things again

00:55:23   But this time I'm a little bit more

00:55:26   Doubtful that whether they've done or not. I loved everything they said I'm like, yes, please make it better

00:55:31   You're acknowledging that it's bad by telling us that you've like improved it

00:55:34   I I don't know if they're trying to say it was all if it's all new or not

00:55:37   I hope it's all new because the existing one just needs to

00:55:40   Well, they did say something important they so

00:55:44   One one word that you didn't hear in this entire presentation was AI

00:55:48   Or large language model. Yes, those were not mentioned and either was metaverse. Those are not mentioned

00:55:54   that was intentional from my understanding but but they

00:55:57   AI was never said and and there's lots of reasons for that, you know, it's a buzzword

00:56:02   it means a lot of things to a lot of different people and

00:56:04   You know, it's it what people usually are referring to these days when they say AI

00:56:08   There's more precise language if you want to more precise and what they said about the new autocorrect and the new

00:56:13   Dictation which I'm very curious about the API or on that what they said was they're now using a quote

00:56:18   transformer language model for word prediction, so

00:56:23   This is you know, this is like the kind of thing that chat GPT is like those large language models

00:56:28   Those are transformer language models. And so what it sounds like is that they built in some

00:56:34   You know custom

00:56:36   transformer based language model into iOS 17 for both autocorrect on the keyboard and for dictation and

00:56:42   Those are probably two different models, but you know, so they're both using

00:56:45   Transformer AI based tech, you know, like that it's that kind of tech

00:56:49   So that is probably a significant change from the previous ML system that was based on

00:56:55   Different older techniques that were probably not transformer based

00:56:57   So this is that actually is a pretty big deal and if if it works if it has any chance of working

00:57:03   Well, it's gonna be with this kind of technology in this day and age. So they didn't call it AI

00:57:08   But well, I don't know because like that large language models don't do

00:57:12   This job like heavy like large language all do also all sorts of stuff

00:57:17   But I haven't seen them perform this function like people are typing on the keyboard try to figure out what they were saying

00:57:22   So like I'd it for me. It's an open question are

00:57:25   those type of models good at this specific task because it is very different than

00:57:30   conversing asking a question looking something up like all the sorts of things that

00:57:33   people are doing doing with them now having it perform a task or even like what I talked about in the past which is

00:57:38   Say a bunch of crap and then have it figure out what you mean

00:57:40   And then then have it convey that message to Siri and have it do a thing for you

00:57:44   So I just I still say the jury's out in this I'm hopeful

00:57:48   I did note that they said some new technologies and said some new things about how it's gonna be better, but I haven't actually

00:57:54   Seen or used something that does autocorrect for phone keyboards that uses this type of model to say

00:58:01   Oh, I know it'll work great because I've seen it before

00:58:03   Right as we keep going

00:58:05   we got

00:58:07   Journal debuted so potentially bad news for day one. This was introduced by a DD. I didn't catch their last name

00:58:13   Well, but I thought thank you

00:58:16   I phone creates suggestions throughout the day of things you might want to journal now

00:58:21   I got super excited because they said there would be an API for this and I took that as oh

00:58:27   We will provide to day one or whatever any time where you can ask for it

00:58:32   Well, so hold on or you can ask for the others just the suggestions we've come up with and I thought that was a

00:58:38   Freaking awesome because then you know I can use day one which I have literally

00:58:41   Thousands of entries in and I can continue to use day one

00:58:45   But have it kind of fill some of this stuff out for me and I was so excited and then someone pointed out to me

00:58:50   Later, I think via like Mastodon or something or maybe there's a text message. But when I'm one way or the other somebody pointed out

00:58:55   No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you will be suggesting to Apple what they can include in journal

00:59:00   They will not be suggesting to anyone else

00:59:02   And I mean, I don't think we've seen these API's or certainly at the time as we record as we are recording

00:59:07   We haven't seen the API's perhaps they're available now, but

00:59:09   Yeah, I think that was perhaps too too generous say read on the situation which kind of bums me out because I love day one

00:59:17   I they have sponsored in the past a couple times

00:59:19   I'm pretty sure but I will evangelize them until I'm blue in the face

00:59:22   They are a it's a fantastic app that I put at least you know

00:59:27   10 15 minutes of time into every single day and I'm very thankful for it every single day. So

00:59:32   Whether whether or not this Sherlock's day one, I think it's as always it's gonna be one of those situations

00:59:37   Where if you want more you go to day one, but if this is enough then this is enough

00:59:41   But I do think that based completely on my own experience. I think that journaling to some degree

00:59:47   I think that's a helpful and healthy thing to do

00:59:50   I don't think it's required to be a healthy individual, but I think it is a healthy activity

00:59:54   Just like exercise is a healthy activity

00:59:57   And I think it's great that they're trying to provide a an outlet or vehicle for this for more people and and I'm I dig

01:00:04   This in principle. I'm excited for this

01:00:06   Moving on we've got standby which is similar to the Apple watch when it's in I think nightstand mode

01:00:12   They called it or something like that

01:00:13   But basically if you put your iPhone horizontally, you can see a big old clock. You can see a bunch of widgets

01:00:20   Widgets are the widget staffs are swipable just like on the home screen

01:00:24   And you can interact with them which we'll talk about a little bit more later

01:00:28   But yeah, this looks neat. This is not filling a use that I have personally

01:00:34   And I don't know a lot of people that have stands that facilitate a landscape mounted phone

01:00:40   But I could totally see because I'm not one of those a holes that buys a new phone every year

01:00:46   I could totally see putting like one of these in the living room or in the kitchen or something like that and just making it

01:00:52   Chock-full of home kit buttons and having like a home kit, you know control centers sort of thing with like a couple year old phone

01:00:59   But either way, I mean, I I don't know that this is going to be a terribly popular thing to do, but I like it

01:01:05   I think it's a neat idea and what's it gonna hurt?

01:01:07   It's kind of bridging the gap between like our generation that had clock radios on the nightstand. Yeah, that's a thing

01:01:15   That's kind of like a hard

01:01:16   landscape oriented but kind of vertical ish thing and the current past feud the generations they're after us because the generations are after us I

01:01:24   Believe their experience is it's just your phone laying flat on your nightstand

01:01:27   They use their phone as their alarm, but it's just laying there flat

01:01:30   And so whenever the alarm goes off they reach over pick it up and press the button or whatever

01:01:34   And so this is like, okay

01:01:35   Well, we know all you've got in your nightstand is a phone but we know from generations past

01:01:40   It's sometimes it's convenient to have it facing you so you can read the time by just turning your head instead of picking your head

01:01:46   Up and peeking so you can see that the time on the you know what I mean?

01:01:49   I'm not sure if that hybrid approach is going to find a market or not

01:01:54   But hey, it's a useful thing to you do with your phone when it's at orientation and you mentioned there's not many stands like that

01:01:59   I think you're gonna see a lot more stands like that in the coming years because

01:02:02   There are a lot of people in our generation or older who would like to replace their clock radio with a phone

01:02:09   But right now it doesn't fulfill that role because it doesn't look clock radio ish and this does so thumbs up for old people

01:02:15   Yeah, I mean, I think this this is a cool feature set to add to an iPhone at the clock radio thing

01:02:22   I think is the most obvious

01:02:24   use case for it, but

01:02:26   ultimately what this really I think is much cooler of an idea for would be like a kitchen countertop thing, you know, like

01:02:33   similar to how people use voice assistant products like, you know, the Amazon Alexa line of stuff and and

01:02:39   You know, like they have they have various ones with screens and everything the Google Home stuff with this, you know

01:02:43   They have one with the screen. And so what's interesting is like why is this on the iPhone?

01:02:48   but I think this this I think is

01:02:51   Foreshadowing maybe a dedicated product in this area which could be much better, you know, they're much much cheaper

01:02:57   I would hope yes, the problem with an iPhone doing this is number one

01:03:00   It's too small to be used in your kitchen number two

01:03:02   It's too expensive and the ones that would be the most obvious things to do them would be the ones with always-on displays

01:03:10   So that that limited eat to even more expensive models

01:03:13   So what this really wants to be first of all, I don't know why this isn't an iPad feature

01:03:19   Like this would be a great use of especially like an old iPad like if it's if it's old enough to run this

01:03:24   Well, they did add widgets iPad OS. Yeah, so I think an iPad with widgets is close

01:03:29   Yeah, but like, you know the fact that it couldn't that it you know, it I guess iPad do it

01:03:33   You know, it listens for Siri

01:03:35   But it can let you can run your widgets

01:03:37   it's designed to be viewed at a distance like all these things like that it would be a lot better as a use for

01:03:42   a you know

01:03:44   Semi-retired iPad it would be great for that and it would also be great to have some kind of maybe good speaker built-in

01:03:51   Maybe some kind of home pod

01:03:53   With this as a screen like that could be a really nice kitchen counter kind of computer

01:03:57   So I'm hoping that this is just the precursor to future products that are devoted to this for like

01:04:04   You know kitchen counter use now bedside use that makes sense to be your phone because your phone's already on your bedside table

01:04:09   You know, you're already charging it overnight. So that's really nice

01:04:12   One interesting little tidbit they threw there at the end is they said that if you use a magsafe charger

01:04:17   I guess magsafe chargers have some kind of like serial number in them

01:04:20   So it says each magsafe charger will remember whatever view you configured for each magsafe charger

01:04:26   So like if you have one in the bedroom

01:04:28   That's magsafe and then you also have a separate magsafe charger in the kitchen and you have two different views configured

01:04:32   I based on what they said. I think it will actually maintain separate settings for those which is pretty cool

01:04:37   Yeah, that is cool. I did not notice that or if they stated it during the the keynote

01:04:41   I totally missed it. That's cool

01:04:43   So yeah, we also get sharing. I think this is on one of those like

01:04:47   Quilt screens where it shows all the different features we get sharing for find my items, which is pretty cool

01:04:54   And also pet recognition so it'll recognize pets that your pets in photos. I'm excited by this

01:05:00   I think it may be my favorite iOS 17 feature

01:05:03   Considering as far as we know we don't have any confirmation on the force quit all apps or hide all pictures future

01:05:10   Find out when we get the betas but pet recognition

01:05:12   We're waiting for that for such a long time because a huge percentage of my pictures of pictures of my various dogs and they are not

01:05:19   identified and so when I ever want to search for for dogs

01:05:23   I have to just search for dog and it's my dog my past dog and also every other dog

01:05:27   I've ever taken a picture of there's a lot of them too. I'd love to be able to just search for my specific dog

01:05:32   So I'm excited to try out that feature. I hope it does well

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01:07:35   All right, iPad OS we've got widgets on lock screen they are interactive

01:07:42   Kind of they are interactive but very limited

01:07:46   It's very very limited the way this works and I'm probably gonna get some details wrong here, but my understanding is

01:07:52   you vend to iOS or iPad OS that you support an

01:07:59   activity intent and

01:08:01   You can in your Swift UI code say hey

01:08:03   By hitting this button you are firing that intent. It does that sound right Marco have you looked into this?

01:08:10   Yes, does that at least sound vaguely correct?

01:08:13   So, you know when when the rumor started about interactive widgets

01:08:16   One of the things we said was look the way widgets work is those processes for those apps are not continuously running

01:08:22   and so, you know

01:08:24   Basically when you're you give the system a timeline of like here's here's what my widget should show

01:08:29   Between these time ranges into the future, you know, so you can configure like if you're making, you know

01:08:34   Whether you have an hourly forecast, you know

01:08:35   Okay

01:08:35   for this hour from this time to this time show this forecast and this time of this time show this forecast and then

01:08:40   Ask me again in four hours for an update

01:08:42   you know

01:08:43   so you can you can kind of

01:08:44   tell the system like when you have new data or you can send a push notification to

01:08:47   Request or refresh or your app can request a refresh or whatever

01:08:50   But it's all based on like you're kind of pre rendering the content for the widget and then your app is not is is

01:08:56   Suspended into the background so you are not continuously running

01:08:59   So when the rumors came up of interactive widgets we were asking on the show like well

01:09:03   How does that work because if you tap a button or something in the widget?

01:09:07   The does it have to then relaunch your process in the background and the answer appears to be yes that they they didn't

01:09:15   You know change the way the process management is done that like your process is still not running

01:09:20   When you have a widget on the on the screen like that apps process is still not running continuously

01:09:23   But they have they have added this new system where you you know there are certain

01:09:29   you know limited types of interaction like buttons and toggles that you can use from Swift UI and

01:09:34   When they are triggered you can you know it will request the app intent

01:09:40   Which will wake up your apps process in the background and perform whatever action you need to perform

01:09:44   Some of those can be done in the extension the widget extension most of them

01:09:48   I think are just done in the app and

01:09:50   This remain I'll have more to say on this once

01:09:54   I've had a chance to actually try it because this all depends on how quickly that is happening in the background

01:10:00   You know how quickly is it is it gonna wake up my process? How quickly can I respond?

01:10:04   What kind of interaction is really possible here are there is there throttling built in can I you know if somebody interact with it?

01:10:11   Constantly does like over and over again like if they tap it a whole bunch of times all in a row

01:10:15   Can I actually respond to that you know if I put like a play/pause button in there which their documentation seemed to suggest as a?

01:10:22   Valid use of this you know so if I make like a little mini player widget

01:10:27   Like if people interact with it a lot does it throttle does it do the requests like back up is it fast enough is it?

01:10:33   Responsive enough to make that a good experience that remains to be seen and that might vary out depending on what kind of hardware you have

01:10:38   If somebody quote force quits your app out of the switcher does it take longer to wake it up if they tap on your widget

01:10:44   You know there's all sorts of little implementation details

01:10:47   If they make everything fast enough

01:10:49   And they have done a lot of work over the years with like making the loaders faster and stuff like that like like processes can launch

01:10:55   Pretty quickly these days on iOS especially if you if you're not too

01:10:59   bloated with your app

01:11:02   But this all depends on on that speed like is it fast enough that most people wouldn't notice

01:11:07   and it feels like a live version of your app or

01:11:11   Does it feel kind of like you're you know putting in a request and they're gonna bring your order out later

01:11:15   You know like they will see what happens

01:11:17   I'm optimistic because again they have done so much work with the loader and everything to make everything faster to launch

01:11:23   As long as we don't have any any odd

01:11:25   Limits and throttles in place this should be pretty interesting

01:11:29   It's worth pointing out also this exact same system is now part of live activities as well so live activities can also now be

01:11:36   interactive in the same way

01:11:38   So there's a couple of minor differences, but they're they're minor so this this could be really cool

01:11:44   This adds yet more to the pile making a little bit of work for me and a lot of work for our friend underscore David

01:11:51   Smith

01:11:52   But this is you know this is gonna be probably a decent part of what my summer is spent working on because again now

01:11:58   I think I think it's probably now gonna be

01:12:01   Expected that apps like mine have now playing widgets that can actually work as little mini players, so this will be some work

01:12:08   But it's a really cool idea and if it works well if it's responsive if it's fast if it's not weirdly throttled

01:12:15   This could be really great

01:12:17   Yeah, I'm also worried about the latency and there's not a lot of good choices for Apple here

01:12:22   If they're gonna stick with this model because like interactively

01:12:25   One choice is as soon as they tap the button

01:12:27   You know do the animation of the button being tapped highlight the button on the highlighted or whatever

01:12:34   The other choice is to wait until it has woken the app up and the app has responded in the affirmative to highlight the button

01:12:40   And both of those choices stink because if you highlight immediately it's like oh, it's great

01:12:44   It's really responsive

01:12:45   But if you highlight immediately and it's taking a while to open the to to launch the app behind the scenes because it has 27

01:12:51   Add SDKs in it and takes forever to launch right then you press the button and from the user experiences

01:12:56   I press the button it highlighted it unhighlighted

01:12:59   Nothing happened like for example with a play/pause I hit it and it like either it changes into the the play symbol because it was

01:13:07   Previously was paused and you press it and now it's like oh, I've paused and I'm gonna change it to the place up

01:13:11   But you still hear the music playing and now you now there's a disconnect the buttons is the play triangle

01:13:15   But you still hear the music playing or you press it and literally nothing happens until you wake up the app

01:13:21   It actually pauses the thing all bad choices, right?

01:13:24   If it's fast enough no problem, right and I bet it will be fast enough for

01:13:28   Well-written apps that launch quickly, you know, especially if it goes to the extension not the app that can presumably launch even faster

01:13:36   But I do worry about it

01:13:37   There's nothing worse than an unresponsive UI and especially on things like the iPad where you've got

01:13:42   You know the bigger iPads with more RAM. I do think this model is a

01:13:46   Little long in the tooth here. I know they're really super cautious about everything but

01:13:50   It's it may be it may be a little much like how much RAM do we have to have how fast these SOC have to be

01:13:56   Before we say you know what?

01:13:58   Okay for something that has a widget to be running in the background

01:14:02   You know, I was gonna destroy my battery

01:14:05   like

01:14:06   I'm not sure they struck the right bounce, but we'll see it performance is not an issue that we find this

01:14:11   I know we'll get to this in a little bit, but they're supporting this on the Mac and on the Mac

01:14:14   It's not launching a process on your Mac. It's gonna talk to a process on your phone in some cases

01:14:19   So not only does it have to wake up a process. It's gonna wake up a process on a whole other device

01:14:22   So I worry about that. I mean, it's great that they're there. It's cool

01:14:26   You can see your charge level on your Lucid Air or whatever, but interaction press the thing on your Mac

01:14:31   So Mac says hey iPhone you around if you're around. Oh, by the way, here's an app intent

01:14:35   The iPhones like wait what who are you? Okay, I'm

01:14:37   Alright, let's the Apple of oh geez. I really hope that is

01:14:41   Acceptable performance watch get all over. Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly how watch stuff works

01:14:47   a lot of times and that that works pretty poorly but

01:14:49   Yeah, I mean I'm guessing for whatever it's worth

01:14:52   Like I'm guessing that you know, there is a pretty critical difference with process management whether you're talking about something that is just simply suspended

01:15:00   Which is basically pausing it and putting it in the background so it can't execute anything live

01:15:04   But when you want to resume a suspended process you just you know, unpause it and just then it keeps going

01:15:09   So it's much faster versus terminated if it's terminated it is quit and then you have when you do need to relaunch it

01:15:17   It has to load up, you know from scratch like load everything back into memory. I'm guessing I hope

01:15:22   That if you have if you've configured a widget for an app and it's currently being displayed

01:15:27   I'm guessing they don't let your process terminate

01:15:30   I'm guessing they leave it

01:15:32   Suspended only and that way when you do tap it

01:15:34   It's much faster to wake up because someone's gonna launch a game and you're gonna get booted out

01:15:38   Like you're not you're not gonna be suspended anymore. Like games will just take all available RAM on an iPad. Oh, yeah

01:15:43   I don't care, you know because you have a screen full of widgets

01:15:45   So they you know things are tight about not as tight as they could be but like anyway

01:15:48   I just I I'm I'm glad that they're moving and they're moving the right direction, which is more permissive

01:15:53   Make more things possible and we'll see how this goes. I but I do have to think that

01:15:58   eventually the

01:16:01   The hardware will catch up to the point where where we these limitations won't be quite as onerous

01:16:06   For what it's worth. It was pointed out by Adam the sack in the chat that friend of the show

01:16:10   James Thompson already got a pcalc widget running in

01:16:13   So it is it is seeming like you can put a bunch of buttons on there. It looked quick

01:16:18   We'll put a link in the show notes, you know, it looked like it looked reasonable granted. This is all simulators

01:16:24   It's beta 1 etcetera, etcetera, but it looked good

01:16:26   All right, where were we which is one health? There's now the health app on iPad. That's cool

01:16:32   I mean, I don't think there's too much more to say about it, but I'm here for it

01:16:35   Then Jenny Chen came out talked about PDFs and Apple pencil

01:16:38   Apparently there's gonna be much more robust PDF support which is funny because I didn't ever think it was particularly bad

01:16:43   No, it's bad. So here's the thing with PDFs, but everyone loves to send you PDFs that they want you to fill out as forms

01:16:49   but

01:16:51   preview and Apple's PDF handling

01:16:53   It's got like a 50% success rate and my experience with can it

01:16:59   Open and fill out this PDF in a sane way and that's not great

01:17:03   But the worst part is in the part that they're dressing here

01:17:05   Most people have no idea how to even do what I just described because they do what I just described you have to know that

01:17:10   It's possible you have to know you have to download you have to know you can open in preview

01:17:12   You have to know preview has these features. This is much more in line where it's like well

01:17:16   We'll give it a shot right here where you see the thing in the mail app in the notes app

01:17:20   Like just you don't have to go anywhere. You know how to download it. You don't have to open in another map

01:17:24   It's right here. But then we're still faced with the same problem, which is like why does it only work?

01:17:28   Sometimes is it because people are bad at making PDF forms? Yes, they are bad at making PDF forms

01:17:32   I've had to multiple times download the trial of Adobe acrobat to use the one and only application

01:17:39   I could find that will successfully thought this to a PDF form. Yeah forms are bad. They should be web forms

01:17:43   But we have to live with them. So I I think Apple is doing what it can

01:17:46   I just still would like to know what is it about Apple's PDF hand

01:17:49   it's probably the fact that Apple's media handling is correct according to the spec and

01:17:52   People's PDFs are made like an acrobat and they only work in acrobat

01:17:55   It's like I don't know if it's acrobat or something else like the equivalent of Chrome or it's like well

01:18:00   Whatever Chrome does is correct and Safari screw you even if you follow the standards, but

01:18:03   Good step in the right direction

01:18:05   But I continue to find filling out PDFs frustrating on Apple platforms without the help of janky third-party PDF stuff that I don't use

01:18:11   Well, the good news is now what's changed is not AI it's quote new machine learning models

01:18:18   That's to identify the PDF forms and and what's cool

01:18:21   What's also cool is that they demo that if it identifies forms and it looks like something like, you know an address field

01:18:26   It will offer autofill which is really cool

01:18:28   Yeah, another brute forcing it right because you can actually make forms with PDFs that says, you know

01:18:34   This area is where they're gonna fill in text and this but you can also brute force of it

01:18:38   She's just you know, what machine learning I'll figure it out

01:18:40   It's an address field

01:18:41   because a lot of times people will send you a PDF that isn't a form that doesn't have places for you to put stuff and

01:18:45   They just expect you to print it and scan it back in or some insanity

01:18:48   So like again Apple's doing what it can which is like we can't we can't control the world of people sending out PDFs

01:18:54   They only work in acrobat for some reason but we can

01:18:56   You know apply our skills and knowledge to just say I don't care what the heck that PDF is

01:19:00   I think that's an address form autofill. Yeah

01:19:03   I thought it was cool though and it's really cool to like the stuff that they added with

01:19:07   Making PDFs a bit more of a like, you know first-class citizen inside of an inside of a note in the notes app

01:19:12   That I think is really cool

01:19:14   You know

01:19:14   They talk about you know

01:19:15   The notes app is like the master Sherlock er of Apple products like there it has Sherlock so many apps over its history

01:19:23   And it does a pretty good job of many of them and in this case, you know now

01:19:28   It's that you can keep multiple PDFs in the same note if you're like, you know doing a research product

01:19:32   Like there's so there's so many apps

01:19:34   That like, you know used to have to be a separate app and now notes does pretty much the same

01:19:41   I mean, I feel like it's still not ideal there. They were showing notes being used for that

01:19:44   I'm like, that's not the ideal app for that

01:19:46   I still think well

01:19:47   I think what they're doing is saying look if you're gonna make a third-party version of this thing

01:19:51   Like I think is you know people call it Sherlocking but I think the definition has been lost

01:19:54   You're locking was like take an innovative idea for an app that has that you hadn't seen before that has a signature look and style

01:20:01   And feature set that is recognizable as this thing and make one just like it and that's not what Apple's doing instead

01:20:06   What they're doing is saying when you buy our products you get the base the functionality to do basic stuff

01:20:12   You can read email you can browse the web. You can take notes and like and that that basic functionality

01:20:17   How what is the basic functionality? How much what does it encompass continues to expand as computers get more powerful?

01:20:22   But the idea is you don't have to buy an Apple device and be like, okay now I got to spend 20 years in the App

01:20:27   Store asking my friends what I should download no out of the box. It will do all the basic stuff

01:20:31   So what that's doing is say do you want to make a notes app?

01:20:34   Do you want to make a journaling app?

01:20:36   The bar is now you can't just make a well-designed fairly basic notes or journaling app

01:20:42   You have to make one that is fancier that has more features

01:20:45   That has a point of view that we don't have that you know that is more specific that is more flexible

01:20:50   And that's you know, that's tough for people, but it's not Sherlocking

01:20:54   It's just saying when previously you needed an entirely new app to do this at all now with the bundles app

01:20:59   You can do an okay job of it

01:21:00   But like I would not want to manage all my PDFs and inside a notes document

01:21:05   But the fact that it's possible to do it at all means people don't have to suffer through hunting through for a third-party application

01:21:10   If they just want to have that basic functionality

01:21:12   yeah, and I think that's that's like the what what notes is really amazing at is if

01:21:18   You don't need the super pro specialized advanced features of lots of stuff

01:21:23   Like, you know if you suppose, you know

01:21:25   Something like Evernote where you want to collect all these ideas together for this one thing you're researching

01:21:29   Like that used to require special apps like Evernote or things like that

01:21:33   And now like you can just do the heat like the 80% version of that in notes

01:21:39   And then you know if you need more advanced features, you can go to the more advanced apps

01:21:42   but notes by itself can do so I mean I

01:21:46   Really? I think notes if I had to pick like, you know, I've criticized Apple a lot in in recent years for

01:21:53   Not really being able to make great applications, you know, their OS's are amazing

01:21:58   Their frameworks are amazing their applications have been not super all there recently

01:22:05   but I think notes is probably the major exception that

01:22:08   notes is I think really it kind of a sleeper like

01:22:12   people people often don't think about it or don't think about how much value it's given them but like

01:22:16   There is so much built into notes and overall it works really well

01:22:22   It is one of the best syncing apps in terms of like iCloud reliability

01:22:26   Although it doesn't sync in the background enough. Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna that's a big

01:22:30   When yeah when it does say like, you know, it sinks it doesn't lose data, you know

01:22:35   It sinks reliably once it's going but like the feature set like there's so much there's drawing there's checkboxes

01:22:42   There's like, you know photo like there's embedding all sorts of now. They have linking that's one of the new things the document scanner thing

01:22:48   Yes, like there's so much built into notes. I think notes might be the best modern Apple app and

01:22:55   There's a so much in there and now there's even more

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01:24:11   [Music]

01:24:15   Now Mac OS Sonoma I when they were talking about why this is my ignorance to all things, California

01:24:20   I thought they were gonna say Mac OS Napa

01:24:22   But apparently no Mac OS Sonoma and this is where Jason Snell is rolling and getting very upset with me. Sorry Jason

01:24:26   But nonetheless Ariel got Sherlocked Ariel the I've been young Ariel screen savers for forever

01:24:33   Well, that's not a Sherlocking because Ariel was just a reimplementation of an Apple thing

01:24:39   And again, that's not Sherlocking. Yes taking Apple TV screen savers and putting them on your Mac now

01:24:43   Your Mac just has Apple TV screen savers right and now Apple put Apple TV screen savers on your Mac

01:24:48   So, you know Ariel filled the gap that Apple should have filled for a long time, which is hey

01:24:53   These are your screen savers Apple. Why are they not on the Mac now? They are

01:24:56   Yeah, it's like it was such an obvious like we of course put it on the Mac

01:25:00   Why would you not want that now we now we have it by the way

01:25:03   Can I can I say on the Sonoma name?

01:25:05   At least they finally picked a name that most people won't mispronounce or argue about how it's supposed to be pronounced

01:25:10   You won't have all the California's thing. It's Ventura. I'm not sure that's true

01:25:14   What do you think people are easier time with this name than Ventura? I don't know. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah

01:25:19   I hundred percent agree with Marco one one hundred percent. This is easier and it's not I don't know

01:25:24   It's it's a it's a place that I think people have actually heard of which I feel well

01:25:28   I mean, that's not fair like you said I had never heard of Sonoma until freshman year at college when someone on my floor was

01:25:34   From Sonoma, so that's how sheltered I was

01:25:36   Well, I don't think it's you being sheltered that's Californian self-importance shining through because I mean, yeah

01:25:41   I think it was a big wine drinker in high school

01:25:44   Fair, but no, I think I think you know

01:25:47   If you're going to take it as fact that they're going to name things after California or places in California fine, whatever

01:25:52   Sonoma I think is a pretty good choice. So moving right along

01:25:55   We talked about aerial widgets are on the desktop now like on the desktop properly and it they dim when other apps are active

01:26:02   I thought this was pretty neat. They they tint based on the wallpaper behind them. I thought that was kind of neat

01:26:06   This is where things get a little bit weird though. First of all, I had heard through the grapevine

01:26:11   This may not be true, but I had heard through the grapevine that has speaking of Sonoma that

01:26:16   That Federici up until at least a couple of years ago

01:26:20   Which is the last time I was asking about this drove like a piece of garbage like 10 year old Audi a6

01:26:25   But did you notice what widget he was using or what widget was sitting on his desktop today? I don't know

01:26:30   Is that real is that fake? Who knows? How could you know but he had the lucid air charge widget on his desktop

01:26:37   And that is a very nice and very expensive automobile, which I think if anyone can afford it

01:26:41   It's Craig, but I thought that was interesting nevertheless

01:26:43   This is what John was talking about earlier

01:26:46   Apparently you don't need to install apps on your Mac in order to use widgets from your phone

01:26:52   You just need your phone on the same Wi-Fi network or within close proximity and then magic

01:26:59   Surely it'll work. No problem, right that that when they said that that you can access iPhone widgets on the Mac without

01:27:05   Installing the app on the Mac. Mm-hmm and they're interactive and yeah, and they're interactive again

01:27:10   Hopefully it works more like anything than watch kit

01:27:14   But you know, we'll see

01:27:16   I mean part of the reason why watch kit sucks so badly is that the watch is a very very low power device that is

01:27:22   constantly turning off things like it's Wi-Fi radio and it's

01:27:25   forcing everything over Bluetooth and keep trying to keep things like in sleep state as much as possible because it's so it's it's so power constrained so

01:27:33   Hopefully that kind of thing will work better

01:27:35   With you know things like laptops and phones which have bigger batteries and keep their Wi-Fi on more often and stuff like that

01:27:40   like hopefully that will be better and I I sure

01:27:44   It can't be worse than watch kit. So or watch watch connectivity rather is the framework

01:27:49   Yeah, so hopefully it's better than watch connectivity and I think it probably will be but it's just this is so cool

01:27:54   like, you know iPhone widgets on the Mac this this is

01:27:58   you know for all of the

01:28:00   trouble that Apple has keeping Mac OS

01:28:03   Relevant and updated and stable and high quality at least they're giving it modern features, you know

01:28:09   At least they're keeping Mac OS relevant. It isn't it's as modern as dashboard, which is what seven years old

01:28:14   No, but this is so much more than seven. Dashboard people comparing dashboard

01:28:18   First of all, I loved certain things about dashboard but dashboard sucked

01:28:23   I used dashboard and it was it just sucked because here's the thing first of all

01:28:27   You know the the reliance on web technologies back then when it came out it made everything very sluggish

01:28:33   and you know

01:28:34   You'd like drag out the widget to plop on the onto the dashboard and you'd want and like it would it would pause for a second

01:28:40   Before it show that cool ripple vertex shader thing it did

01:28:43   Because it was like loading like it was basically loading a little web browser for each one of those things

01:28:48   So that's problem number one problem. Number two is that those were never updated in the background

01:28:52   So you would you would hit whatever it was was it f11? What was the dashboard key hot corner or a hot corner?

01:28:58   yeah, so you'd bring up dashboard and

01:29:00   Everything in dashboard would be showing either blank data or stale data and then over the following couple of seconds

01:29:07   They would pop in with updated data because they weren't being updated in the background

01:29:11   So you'd load dashboard and it was always stale and then it would pop in

01:29:14   I think all those things you complain about were eventually fixed

01:29:17   They eventually did one big WebKit process for the whole thing instead of other ones and eventually they updated so fast about a time

01:29:22   The animation was done new day was in them

01:29:24   The main thing I liked about dashboard was that it was off screen so you didn't have to deal with what they're doing here where?

01:29:29   They're like, oh they're dimmed because we don't want you to be distracted by them, but dimming them is gonna hurt their legibility

01:29:34   But on the other hand, I don't want them cluttering up my desktop

01:29:36   So imagine if they were just off somewhere on another screen that I get in a hot corner to get to

01:29:40   But yeah, this is the modern

01:29:42   incarnation of that but

01:29:43   And by the way, if they did it with web technologies now, it would be lighting fast and they could update it in the background

01:29:47   But why bother because you've got Swift UI and this whole widget system, which is great

01:29:50   And it's great that it's the same across all platforms

01:29:53   This is just sort of this is the whatever the opposite of a strategy taxes a strategy bonus strategy credit like this

01:29:59   Yeah

01:30:00   This this widget technology and the fact that Swift UI is all cross-platform

01:30:03   means that when you do this stuff you can share it across all your

01:30:06   platforms and it is sort of a unifying force as they you know spread this around and

01:30:10   People like widgets and if you know

01:30:12   They don't have to make something - what we're just totally out of left field because there was nothing like it now

01:30:16   Making it with Apple's first class, you know UI framework that works across all their platforms including their friggin headset

01:30:22   That's that's the strategy bonus

01:30:24   Yeah, and I think you know the reality is there there are two types of people out there

01:30:29   There's the there's the people who maintain a very clean minimalist desktop

01:30:34   And then there's the rest of the world who uses their desktop for all sorts of crap

01:30:38   And I'm one of those people I had my desktops always covered in crap and when whenever whenever I like mention that or post a screenshot

01:30:43   I always hear from the former type of person. How can you live like that?

01:30:47   You know

01:30:48   but hello the reality is most people use their desktop as a drop spot as a working space because it's

01:30:54   What's it there for it's not supposed to be clear all the time. It's a working space. It's it's real estate

01:31:00   You can use to get your work done

01:31:01   It's like people post those pictures like of like their real-life desks and there's nothing on them. Those people aren't doing anything

01:31:07   They're not working. That's not how it really looks if you're actually doing anything, you know

01:31:10   My desk is always covered in crap just like my desktop

01:31:12   That's how people live and so the idea of putting a you know, which hit or a few widgets on my desktop

01:31:17   I'm not concerned about the clutter that brings it's already cluttered if it can bring me useful information great

01:31:24   so next we

01:31:26   Next in keynote orders gaming if you'll permit a slight change of procedure here

01:31:31   I'd like to come back to that just try to blast through the other stuff real quick and then we can spend a few minutes

01:31:35   On gaming there were some video conferencing updates. There's presenter overlay where you can get a fake green screen

01:31:42   What I thought was super cool about this. I didn't take good notes about it

01:31:45   So I'm going off the top of my head

01:31:47   but you can put put this setup where the camera is taking the video of you and

01:31:54   In the in the the background behind you like the real-life background behind you

01:31:59   But then it will superimpose your screen as though it's being presented adjacent to your head

01:32:06   I'm probably not doing a good job describing this but it looked

01:32:10   Super cool and I can imagine how this would be super useful

01:32:13   Especially if you can do this with you know, zoom and all the other video conferencing apps

01:32:17   Which my understanding is this is a system level thing and you can do exactly that

01:32:20   So I thought that looked really really slick, but the guy's head is blocking half of a slide though

01:32:26   I mean, I'm sure you could well

01:32:29   I would be dodging out of the way. I see this problem comically and the destiny videos I watch

01:32:33   They all have kind of like a same thing where they can show their screen with their little head superimposed and they're always blocking

01:32:38   The one part of the screen that they're trying to talk about

01:32:40   Then additionally we got some talk about Safari again. I'm gonna try to make this quick

01:32:45   They said often that they locked the they I think a private browser window

01:32:50   I think they were saying private browser window when you're not using it. I'm not entirely clear what that means

01:32:54   I'm assuming that means they don't show the contents

01:32:56   Yeah

01:32:56   It's probably like locked notes where like if you have a lock note and you go away from it for a little while you come back

01:33:01   And it re-requires the authentication. I'm sure it's it's probably something like that. Maybe it requires Face ID or Touch ID to unlock it

01:33:06   Who knows? Yep, they're doing more to remove trackers and things like that

01:33:10   profiles for separating

01:33:13   You know work browsing versus personal browsing

01:33:16   This is something that even when I had an actual job didn't ever bother me that much but I can totally

01:33:20   Understand if this is something that bothers, you know, the Royal you

01:33:24   People use it in Chrome a lot like it's useful

01:33:27   Like if you have kids that have a Google account with their school

01:33:29   But they also have their own personal Google account dealing with those but you can't deal with them both in a single profile

01:33:34   But having profiles in Chrome is super handy. So this is a catch-up feature for Apple, but it's it's a good feature. I

01:33:39   Hardly endorse it. Yeah this I actually didn't realize that this was implemented by anybody else because I'm not really a Chrome person

01:33:46   But this is great like is you know, so often we would I would just use like a different browser for certain things ago

01:33:51   I had this browser for this account and then I'll have this other browser that I launch only to use this other account like

01:33:55   You know now now this is this is much nicer

01:33:57   Yeah, and what Chrome does is they let you have like different themes for the for the Chrome for the Chrome

01:34:02   Ha ha and the UI so you can kind of tell like this is the school when these are all the school windows are kind of

01:34:07   Bluish and all my personal indoors are kind of whitish or whatever

01:34:09   The way Apple is doing it is not coloring the whole

01:34:12   UI, but the button that switches profiles is strongly colored orange blue or whatever. So I think that's a good compromise

01:34:19   I think Apple did a good job with this feature

01:34:21   Yep. All right. So then the other thing that was super exciting to me about Safari

01:34:26   Oh, I'm sorry before we get there web apps on the Mac. You can do file add to dock. That's cool

01:34:31   Not from not something I feel like I would use but that's cool people are saying you're sure locking a thousand apps

01:34:34   But again, I'm gonna say not the same definition of Sherlock

01:34:36   but boy are there have

01:34:38   there are and there have been so many apps in the Mac that did this exact job and Apple finally got around to doing it

01:34:44   After what like a decade a decade and a half that those apps have exist. Yeah now it's built in and

01:34:49   Arguably Apple did it first ish on the iPhone because I think from like day one you could basically save a website as a

01:34:56   Icon on springboard on your phone. Yep. Yep. Yep

01:34:59   But the thing before we move on and come back to gaming the thing that I am genuinely no sarcasm

01:35:05   Super freaking amped about is shared pass keys. So yeah recap and passwords not just pass keys

01:35:12   Oh, I didn't catch that. That's a good correction. Thank you

01:35:15   So pass keys and password. Oh, well, we all know what a password is pass keys that fancy thing where you can use

01:35:21   You know biometric authentication or whatever again, I'm probably getting these terms wrong

01:35:25   We get the gist of what I'm saying, but you can do use biometrics in order to authenticate onto websites and things like that

01:35:30   And I am really into this because you don't have to worry about remembering passwords

01:35:34   You don't have to invent ridiculously long complex passwords, and I'm super into this right now

01:35:39   Because one password eight and one password is a former sponsor and I love the people at one password. Really I do

01:35:46   One password eight is really not good. Like really really not good

01:35:51   Really not good and I think they're marching ahead with one password eight come hell or high water

01:35:55   We don't care who we take off and doing it

01:35:57   so I've been shopping around for something to replace one password and I am a religious user of the

01:36:04   shared vaults

01:36:05   system where you can have a vault in one password of shared passwords that both Erin and I can see and

01:36:12   Up until literally today. I didn't really see any equivalent of that in

01:36:17   Pass keys and now I don't know how good it's gonna be. I don't know if it's gonna be easy or not

01:36:22   But at least there's a chance because shared pass keys and apparently passwords are a thing or will be a thing and I am

01:36:29   Genuinely, no sarcasm super excited for this. Here's a summary from Ricky on Macedon

01:36:36   You can share pass keys passwords and verification codes, which means like the two-factor things and notes

01:36:42   Edits and updates seamlessly sync between group members and end encrypted share with family friends or other close contacts

01:36:47   So it's like it's the full thing. It's like, you know, you know iCloud keychain where you put your stuff

01:36:52   Well now some of that stuff can be shared. Excellent. Love it. Yeah, although there's there's still no like passwords app

01:36:57   Like it's still that as far as I can tell right?

01:36:59   It's still like kind of buried in any other settings or in Safari or like I know what the check

01:37:04   I do wish they would just make an app for all this stuff

01:37:09   you know give it give us a little bit a little more features that are like one password in terms of just like the editing interface

01:37:14   And stuff like that just because they're they have all the pieces they like they have this amazing system

01:37:19   If if the app situation was a little bit nicer and better

01:37:22   I would definitely switch and I would drop one password but in the you know

01:37:27   At least until that happens and if that happens right now

01:37:30   I'm I think I'm still gonna stick with one password just because I like having having that easy access to everything

01:37:35   So, you know, I know Apple again, I said a few minutes ago. They're not they're not great at making applications in recent years

01:37:40   with a few exceptions

01:37:42   but but I I wish they would do that because this this is screaming out for it and

01:37:47   I think that would ultimately not only would that make our lives better, you know as the nerds who use these kind of things already

01:37:53   But I think that would actually help more people use this, you know their goal

01:37:57   Which is a laudable goal is to make this stuff build into everything. So it's easy to use some more people have better security

01:38:04   That's a great goal. They should be doing that. It's and they largely succeed

01:38:08   But these passwords being buried in in these places that most people don't even know you can go to access them

01:38:14   That's not good enough to achieve that goal. You need you need easier access for people to

01:38:19   See and edit and view this stuff instead of just being like it buried in a settings panel somewhere

01:38:25   They don't even know is there I mean

01:38:27   You're supposed to use it at the point of you're not supposed to go digging for it

01:38:30   Like it's supposed to be right there in Safari, you know auto filling and everything like that

01:38:32   But when you do go and edit it the the interface for doing so is bare bones, right?

01:38:37   It's not there's not a lot of fancy stuff in it

01:38:39   So if it was a separate app presumably you'd have a bigger team to do that UI and you know

01:38:44   Cuz like the guts of this feature are the important part the back end the syncing the end-to-end encryption

01:38:49   Like and be all the API's for hooking it into apps

01:38:52   That's the majority of what this team probably does and then oh by the way

01:38:56   You need to have a UI so you can actually look at this stuff

01:38:58   That's it's kind of like not an afterthought but they don't have the resources to go a whole hog of like

01:39:03   To even come close to competing with one password for the features of the actual app that you go to but in general

01:39:08   I don't think you're supposed to be going to the app in the ideal case

01:39:11   But sometimes you do need to go there and when you do the app is just kind of like well first of all

01:39:16   It's not an app. It's buried in settings the second. It's just you know, it's there the stuff's there. It's fine

01:39:20   well, and I feel like you know, if they had an app they could you know, it kind of pushes them more in the direction of

01:39:26   Adopting to the reality of the world and there were in the in the reality of the world

01:39:29   not every app people use on Apple's platforms let alone off of them is

01:39:34   Apple's version of that app. So for instance chrome on the Mac kind of a big thing. I know safaris better

01:39:42   I agree. I use Safari myself, but many people use chrome on the Mac and

01:39:47   This has as far as far as I know this still has no way to integrate with that

01:39:51   Oh, it has a way to integrate it with but Google doesn't use that way. So it doesn't integrate like there are API's

01:39:57   Google could integrate with it, but they choose not to right but like Apple Apple doesn't Apple make an extension for chrome for Windows to do

01:40:04   this but not chrome for Mac like I feel like there's there are I

01:40:09   wish Apple would

01:40:11   Open up a little more of the access to this to reflect what people actually want and do

01:40:16   because their their functionality is great in this area and

01:40:21   You know, you know now we're kind of just stuck with things like one password to fill that role instead, which is fine

01:40:26   Those are those are good apps to an extent but for those of us who are like mostly Apple based, you know in our ecosystem

01:40:32   Apple solution is largely better in a lot of ways and I wish I could kind of go all in on it

01:40:37   But there's still these little these little areas that keep me on one password that anyway, maybe it's selfish

01:40:41   I don't know

01:40:41   But I think they could get more people using this feature and benefiting from Apple's increased security

01:40:46   With a few little tweaks here and there or you know large things like an app

01:40:51   Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I think for now I would also stick with one password, but

01:40:57   This gives me a whole bunch of peace of mind

01:41:00   knowing that if one password forces me on one password eight because I actually downgraded to seven and oh my god my experience got so

01:41:08   Much better. But anyway

01:41:09   If I if I'm forced eight and if eight is still a pile of garbage

01:41:12   Then this gives me options right? Whereas up until today

01:41:16   I feel like I would just have to suffer through with one password eight which maybe it's gotten better than last month

01:41:21   Who knows the chat room seems to disagree with me here, but I can tell you it's been nothing

01:41:25   But a nightmare for me up until a month ago

01:41:27   So anyways, this gives me hope that there are that there will be a workable alternative, which I am super into

01:41:34   Alright, we have been recording for something to the order of an hour and a half hour 45 minutes

01:41:40   I have a feeling John you're gonna have a couple of words to say about gaming

01:41:43   But please remember that we have an entire other product line to talk about

01:41:48   So use your time wisely sir go seems like you're wasting a lot of time with that preamble. I could have just done it quickly

01:41:54   A little bit more about gaming later

01:41:59   But this is the typical thing that Apple does where they get someone we talked about

01:42:02   They've Kojima being rumored to being seen around Apple. Well, here he is

01:42:05   He's talking about stuff and he's talking about games on the Mac

01:42:08   Oh, it's a four year old game that everybody's already played and here it is here

01:42:11   We are showing it playing on a Mac with jumpy bad frame rates. Is anybody excited by that?

01:42:15   Oh and he says he's excited to bring his future games to the Mac presumably four years after everybody has already played them

01:42:21   Like the game technologies Apple has on the Mac platform are probably better than they've ever been before

01:42:27   The problem is one the hardware they sell doesn't have enough GPU power for the amount of money that you spend on it

01:42:33   - there is no high-end as we just discussed for gaming at all and three nobody makes games for it

01:42:38   and they're not really doing anything to

01:42:41   You know solve that chicken and egg problem. They're not making better hardware and paying people to make better software

01:42:47   They don't have killer up software that's then, you know able to run on it. It's just I

01:42:51   Don't this presentation. I don't know why they bother doing this like who who is you know?

01:42:57   Who wants to play Death Stranding who has not already played Death Stranding on a $500 box at better frame rates than this, right?

01:43:05   And and what I don't understand is how the heck do all the gaming API's get budgeted at Apple all these things where you convert

01:43:11   Your shaders and the whole thing that are like here's where you can run your think Windows game and emulation on the Mac will estimate how?

01:43:16   well

01:43:17   it's gonna perform and will recompile your shaders and like all the whole technology stack they have for metal and the and the

01:43:22   scale like they have like a full featured their own little world of gaming technology stack with metal and their GPUs aboard and it's good and

01:43:30   It performs well and you know, it takes it does really well on the on the chips that Apple makes right?

01:43:36   But what what is that all for like it's not forgetting. What is it all for? How do they get money?

01:43:42   How does this part of the company get some and to be clear? I want them to have money

01:43:45   I'm not saying I don't begrudge them their budget

01:43:47   It just amazes me how much time and effort Apple puts into this and what an amazing job

01:43:52   They do only to just stumble at the finish line because the company itself has no idea how to encourage a healthy

01:43:59   medium to high-end game ecosystem on anything except for iPhone and maybe

01:44:03   Secondarily on iPad but on the Mac

01:44:05   This just just out in the wilderness with an amazing technology stack

01:44:09   And computers with not enough GPU that cost too much money and nobody making games

01:44:13   I do want to I want to touch a little more on what you also seem to have picked up

01:44:20   This appears to me that they are there

01:44:23   They're doing full-on emulation like almost like and I mean, I know wine is not an emulator

01:44:28   But almost sort of kind of like a wine sort of thing again more emulation than than facade

01:44:34   but I think they're doing like a

01:44:36   Parallels kind of virtual machine with the GPU support me the whole point of that

01:44:41   It's mostly just a developer tool to let people know. Hey, were you to port this game to the Mac?

01:44:45   Like here's how it might perform even before optimization or here's our estimate like it's it's just an entire like hey person who has a

01:44:53   Game, don't you want to sell that to the dozens of Mac developers?

01:44:57   By your game. Well, look at all these tools we have for you. We give you the tools for free

01:45:01   Well, you have a thing that recompiles your shaders and all you have to do is change all your graphic stuff to use metal

01:45:06   It's really easy. Just watch all these sessions and learn metal and the developers like I already stopped listening

01:45:10   Just now just rewrite your graphic stack you do what now?

01:45:15   I mean, it's nice that they had unity there, but they didn't have unreal on stage and it's just

01:45:19   It's such a weird

01:45:21   It's such a weird split between the amazing technology and the the phenomenal GPUs for the power envelopes

01:45:28   Like it's I when I keep saying phenomenal GPUs

01:45:30   It's like yes for a 15 watt SOC their GPU power is amazing and their API's were accessing it are amazing

01:45:36   They have nothing to compete with high-end GPUs and they have no game

01:45:41   Development ecosystem to speak of on the Mac on the on the iPhone they do and I've had a little bit less

01:45:47   So but the Mac it's a sad situation

01:45:49   So I don't I I really hope they solve this not by saying let's give up on gaming again because they did that they did

01:45:54   Like input sprockets and game sprockets and they gave up on it for like two decades and now they're back but they still

01:46:00   The rest of the company is not on board with this plan

01:46:03   they just I mean

01:46:04   I guess that technology useful elsewhere and we'll talk about it when we get to the headset, but this was kind of a

01:46:09   Depressing another depressing section of the keynote. Well, and I I don't know it's hard for me to understand what their

01:46:16   preferred order of operations is or what their preferred approach is because it appeared to me like

01:46:22   Like Apple is giving you some sort of emulation layer where if you want to do nothing

01:46:28   You can use a simulation layer and walk away

01:46:32   But they prefer if you convert your shaders and do all the stuff with metal and blah blah blah and says boom Bob

01:46:38   That's not what I got from it, but I'll have to watch it again. Yeah, I mean, I'm not confident that I'm right either

01:46:42   It could be either one of us, but I just thought it was it's it's cool that they're saying well since nobody wants to actually

01:46:48   Spend the time to bring the games to us then maybe we can bring us to the games

01:46:52   I mean, that's what that's what the the steam deck does they could do that

01:46:56   But steam deck doesn't seem to excess. Look just run your PC games and we'll just handle the details

01:47:00   That's not what Apple is saying. All right, right, so

01:47:03   We'll say

01:47:06   Air pods get adaptive audio, which is kind of in transparency and active noise cancellation all one

01:47:12   Also conversation awareness will duck the volume of music. That's cool. I am I'm into that

01:47:19   I'm really curious how well this works in practice because that that's you know

01:47:24   The idea that you that you kind of wouldn't need to turn on noise cancellation and transparency

01:47:31   Separately that you it'll just kind of figure out what's probably best. I

01:47:35   Hope two things. I hope that works. Well, I also hope that's not the only option going forward

01:47:40   You know, I hope you can still just have transparency or just have noise cancellation if you want to and you probably can hopefully but

01:47:47   If they can pull that off, that's really nice. I mean, you know the the examples they gave

01:47:51   You know the leaf blowers versus conversations that all sounds really good. Like it seems like you know, it demos well

01:47:57   It sounds really good. I hope this works because that if it works as well as they say it could be really cool

01:48:02   You know the the conversation detection as you mentioned where like someone talks to you it'll automatically like lower your music like that's again

01:48:09   This is really cool stuff. I hope it works one thing that

01:48:13   That I'm a little scared of but I'm glad they were touching it is they they mentioned they've like dramatically improved the cross device switching

01:48:22   mechanics

01:48:24   Let's see how that works because to date that has not worked. Well, I

01:48:29   Mean, I hope they didn't make it worse. But right now still like it. Yeah, see now

01:48:34   It's not perfect for me, but it's pretty good for the most part

01:48:37   I leave it on I use it on a daily basis and it pretty much never goes wrong for me

01:48:40   I still reliably have the bug where I will be leaving my house with my air pods to go take a dog walk or something and

01:48:48   I will click the stem to begin playback of overcast on my phone

01:48:52   But the air pods have instead paired themselves somehow to my Mac

01:48:56   Which I never pair them to my Mac in you know in the next room over and by clicking the stem on the air pods

01:49:01   It will begin playing the max audio on

01:49:05   the Mac

01:49:07   Out of the Mac speakers. Yeah, I've had that happen like once or twice but it's very rare for me

01:49:12   That happens to me all the time

01:49:14   And so I'm like how what kind of bug is this?

01:49:17   We're clicking the stem on my air pods as they walk out the door makes my Mac start playing fish in the other room

01:49:23   It's infuriating and so yeah, I'm hoping for some

01:49:27   Attention to that process and they said they did it. So let's see how that works

01:49:33   I I would love I would love more options to turn off some of this magic

01:49:39   You know because when when magic does not work

01:49:41   Well, you kind of want an option to turn it off

01:49:43   And so I would love an option to say for instance like for this pair of air pods

01:49:47   Never offer to automatically connect it to anything else besides the devices I connect it to

01:49:52   Like don't you know when you walk in here when I walk in here my Mac while wearing these air pods

01:49:56   Don't put a little notification that says connect to the air pods when I walk by my family who's watching something on the Apple TV

01:50:02   And I just came in from a dog walk with the air pods on the TVs right near the door

01:50:05   Don't don't show on the Apple TV

01:50:08   Connect to Marco's air pods like and then if I click a button in the air pods you can turn that off

01:50:12   I hope like there's some of those things a lot of those things you can't turn

01:50:15   Oh, you can't like right now you can go turn that off in settings in your Apple TV

01:50:18   Oh good

01:50:19   But you can't turn that off like on the Mac as far as I can tell and you can't turn it off

01:50:22   You can't say for a given pair of air pods like never auto connect to anything unless I've told you to

01:50:28   You could you if they go to each device and say on each device for each pair of air pods

01:50:32   Say don't automatically reconnect and then sometimes it just forgets that setting and reconnects anyway

01:50:37   So or place fish in the room when you're leaving the house. So

01:50:40   anyway

01:50:42   Some attention that area is appreciated. Yep. Yep. I totally hear that

01:50:46   Then we got from Ann Park should Lasky some airplay improvements

01:50:52   Hotels allegedly maybe like six of them will allow you to scan a QR code and then connect to the hotel Wi-Fi and connect to

01:50:59   The screen the TV screen in front of you, which is super cool. I don't have teenagers

01:51:04   So I'm not too into share play for the car yet

01:51:07   But I can imagine that that will be super cool for me in a few years now teenagers all use Spotify

01:51:13   So it's not gonna help you

01:51:14   To shake well for me that that's great for like your spouse who's in the passenger seat like that's like to me

01:51:21   Like, you know, it's always it's always my phone on the carplay screen in my car

01:51:24   Or it's just phone on the carplay screen in her car

01:51:26   And so it's really nice to be able to like now, you know what we've done up to date is

01:51:31   Whenever I want to hear like, you know

01:51:33   If I want to have to play the music while I'm driving and it's my phone on carplay

01:51:36   Her phone isn't set up for all that in my car

01:51:38   So we keep it on my car so I can you know, keep my driving directions up and everything

01:51:41   but then we just have to like

01:51:43   Figure out what she's playing and then try to send it to my phone in some way that works while we're driving or use Siri

01:51:47   Which is always an abysmal failure

01:51:49   And so this to be able to have her just like just play something play like an Apple music playlist from her phone

01:51:56   Onto the carplay head unit without it switching like that's really nice if that feature works at all

01:52:02   That's gonna be a nice little quality life improvement for a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree

01:52:06   TV OS and Apple TV were mentioned we got a new control center, which I think look pretty good

01:52:12   You can locate the remote using iPhone which I don't think requires new hardware, which I am very excited about

01:52:19   That's super great

01:52:20   You can select memories of screensaver

01:52:22   You can do FaceTime on Apple TV if you use continuity camera, which I thought was super cool

01:52:28   Yeah

01:52:28   I can I can absolutely imagine occasions when I would want to do that with like grandparents or something like that and

01:52:33   There was this weird app mentioned or I think picture at the picture right maybe

01:52:38   Pictured on screen overcast was was in the keynote at least briefly, which is super exciting. So congratulations Marco. Yep. Yep

01:52:46   Yeah, the icon it was part of a one of those like, you know, lots of features slides and it was about

01:52:51   That apparently there there's some I haven't looked into this yet

01:52:54   But there's going to mechanism for you to ask Siri on a home pod to play to initiate playback

01:53:01   From an audio app on your phone over airplay

01:53:04   So before you couldn't do that before like there was you could you could tell a home pod to play music and it would play

01:53:10   It itself but that you couldn't ask a home pod to begin playback

01:53:15   For the version of overcast running on your phone in your pocket

01:53:17   You could take the phone out and begin playback and airplay it to the home pod like all manually from the phone

01:53:24   But you couldn't do that via Siri if I understand that slide correctly

01:53:27   It sounds like they have now added that ability to initiate to me

01:53:31   to initiate that airplay session

01:53:34   But totally by voice without taking the phone in your pocket and that I've been hoping for this for so long

01:53:40   So I am super excited about this

01:53:43   I assume the reason they put my app on the slide is that maybe it just automatically works

01:53:47   Because if you maybe if you take advantage of Siri app intense, which I do for playing audio

01:53:52   Maybe that just works without any intervention for me, which would be great

01:53:54   But super excited about that and I'm I'm so thrilled that like I was so cool to see

01:54:00   My app on the slide in the keynote like or at least see my icon on the slide in the keynote

01:54:05   That's that's a huge like, you know developer, you know win like I've had in a long time ago. I had instapaper

01:54:12   Appear during a session video and that blew my mind and that was just during a session

01:54:17   But to have to help my icon on the keynote. I was like, I'm pretty happy about that

01:54:21   That's super awesome. Congratulations. Thank you. Watch OS

01:54:24   Revamped mostly as we've heard so I don't think there's a lot we need to talk about

01:54:28   You turn the crown to reveal widgets and smart stack. They went all in on like vertical paging which I think makes sense

01:54:34   You apparently there's a widget to hold your complications now, which at first I was like

01:54:42   What but I guess that kind of makes sense. It's a little unusual, but I think I can get behind it

01:54:47   developers can use more of the display and in fact

01:54:50   the

01:54:51   time can even move to the center to display because it's usually in the upper right hand corner of memory serves and the time will

01:54:56   Automatically move to the center if need be because love that import. Yep developers can put stuff in the toolbar up there really dig that

01:55:02   We get Snoopy and Woodstock faces. I am NOT a huge fan of these animated faces. I think they're clever and cool

01:55:08   They're just not for me, but I dig that Snoopy Woodstock are there and additionally

01:55:12   They seem to interact with not only what's going on around you but with you know things that are happening on the watch

01:55:17   They showed a demo of Snoopy like picky picky putting his ear over Woodstock

01:55:21   So Woodstock doesn't get rained on because it was raining allegedly when that happened, which I thought was super neat

01:55:26   We saw Eric Charles come up with some cycling and cycling and hiking updates

01:55:31   Most of this I thought was cool. But I mean again, I'm not a big cycle or cyclist whatever and I don't hike often

01:55:38   Although I do quite enjoy it when I do when I do go hiking

01:55:40   But I thought was really neat was last known cellular contact waypoint. So as you're hiking it'll say

01:55:47   Oh, this is the last place that I had cell coverage. So if you have an emergency you can like run back there, hopefully

01:55:51   And also maps have topographical maps, which I thought was really neat

01:55:55   then we got

01:55:57   From dr. Desai we got some health updates

01:55:59   Mental health has mood logging which which is also available on iPhone and iPad and the watch you can take standardized

01:56:07   assessments for anxiety and depression risk

01:56:09   Which I thought was interesting they also talked about vision health and how you can reduce myopia

01:56:14   Myopia is not being able to see close nearsightedness

01:56:17   Okay. Okay, so I have that backwards then

01:56:20   Anyway affects like a third of the population probably gonna be more in the future. So it'll tell you. Hey, you should probably

01:56:26   You know scoot your face away from the screen if it if you are using something like an iPad with face ID

01:56:32   And also it'll measure for kids especially it'll measure how much time they spend outside using the ambient light sensor to tell you if hey

01:56:39   You should maybe get outside because some of those, you know, some of the sun's rays really help your eyes

01:56:43   Anything else on watch before we move to the one more thing? Well, the the watch face situation remains

01:56:49   Dire. Yes, I mean so I with the with the new focus on widgets and everything this this seems like

01:56:56   This is this is kind of like the the rebirth of the Siri watch face, which they launched a long time ago now

01:57:02   And it was kind of this, you know dynamic context sensitive little rectangles that would come up depending on what was coming up

01:57:07   It was a cool idea that they kind of launched version 1 over then never touched again

01:57:10   So this is this is that final version 2 and I like that you can just kind of scroll down from any watch face

01:57:16   So you don't have to use the Siri face, which as a watch face wasn't very good

01:57:20   You can kind of get this this kind of contextual widget based awareness and dynamic functionality now with any face

01:57:27   I think which is great. I

01:57:29   Still want third-party watch faces or at least much more customization available via the widget system

01:57:39   So for instance like a full screen widget that maybe just has the clock in the top center or something like that

01:57:43   You know is some other ways that we can do this. Maybe we can do some of this now just with this new system

01:57:47   probably not so I

01:57:50   Still want custom watch faces. I'm still not surprised that they didn't give it to us and in the meantime

01:57:56   This is some pretty solid updates

01:57:58   I like the the with the with the cycling workout thing the way that you can now use your phone as a

01:58:04   Screen for your cycling data like yeah, that's a good point

01:58:07   Yeah

01:58:08   That's a pretty cool

01:58:08   You know because like a lot of people will have a mount on there by candlebars or something to stick their phone there

01:58:13   So you can see real-time stuff there rather than having to look at your watch which on a bike is is you know?

01:58:19   A little bit of a clumsy and slightly dangerous maneuver. So ideally so this is this is actually really nice

01:58:23   If you're if you're a bikest, this is this is very nice

01:58:26   and then the

01:58:29   You know

01:58:29   There's like the new high frequency motion data access on the series 8 and ultra for the golf and tennis swing

01:58:35   Monitoring and the whole API for that. That's pretty cool overall

01:58:38   It's actually a fairly, you know, medium grade watch OS update. It's not a massive revamp like we thought it's an it's a nice

01:58:47   you know, it's bigger than bigger than average years in terms of

01:58:49   You know UI updates and SDK updates

01:58:53   But about the same in average years in terms of user facing features. There's not a ton of user facing new features

01:59:00   There's some little refinements here and there there's some new workout functionality. So in that kind of way, it's it's kind of as expected

01:59:06   I am interested though and excited about the new design stuff possible that I made made easy

01:59:13   By all the new, you know design language around those cards and the the corner toolbar items stuff like that

01:59:17   I I think this is gonna make better watch app watch apps easier to make and nicer

01:59:24   it remains to be seen whether any of the

01:59:28   You know background execution limits and stuff like that have actually been lifted or not and I'm guessing probably not. Yeah

01:59:34   I would like to take just a two second pause here and evaluate what if this was the whole of

01:59:41   WWDC I don't think that there was anything

01:59:43   Super revolutionary that was introduced except maybe the Mac Pro, but I think it's a pretty good WWDC

01:59:51   I mean, these are all very mature platforms. We got nice quality of life improvements pretty much everywhere

01:59:56   So far, I felt like this was pretty good. I mean not like a revolutionary

02:00:02   I will remember this until the end of time kind of WWDC but a pretty good one. I mean John, what did you think?

02:00:06   excluding

02:00:10   Excluding the headset I feel like

02:00:12   The if the headset wasn't there they would have added more of the stuff that was in the state of the Union because there's lots of

02:00:17   Cool developer stuff and they just didn't have time for that but the headset in here

02:00:20   So it was much more like a sort of Mac world Expo keynote than a WWDC one because they had to fit all the products in

02:00:25   Yeah, but you are you pleased with it though? Yeah. No, it's good

02:00:29   Marco thoughts. Yeah, I I think it would it would we know without without the headset it just seeing what we saw so far and the

02:00:38   SDK updates that are that are you know coming behind the scenes?

02:00:41   I mean, obviously we would have had more explained to us in the keynote because the you know

02:00:46   The keynote is usually about two hours long and in this case, you know before before at this point with everything we've covered

02:00:52   They were at an hour 20

02:00:54   So, you know, there's 40 more minutes of content that is taken up by the headset that they would have expanded upon other things

02:00:59   So maybe you know, I think we would have been even more excited about a lot of stuff

02:01:02   But yeah, I think it would have been a pretty good WWDC. I mean these are all pretty nice, you know incremental but not revolutionary

02:01:08   OS updates we had great Mac hardware releases at the beginning

02:01:11   Well, we had Mac Harbor release at the beginning the most some of which were great some of which John hates

02:01:15   But overall like yeah, that's a pretty good WWDC in in most cases in most years

02:01:20   Yep, I would agree with that but there was one more thing

02:01:24   Yeah, we go back to Tim and Tim says to us

02:01:27   Well, I have one more thing and this is the first Apple product you look through not at and we are introduced to the vision

02:01:35   Pro I

02:01:36   Don't dislike the name but the name doesn't really rev my engine that much

02:01:42   Like I don't know what I would suggest in lieu of this like it's fine

02:01:45   Actually better than going with reality

02:01:48   despite the fact that as I said a reality has a

02:01:49   Storied history in 3d or whatever like I feel like the marketing team probably said the reality opens them up to too much snark

02:01:56   And I kind of agree with that. I would agree with that too

02:01:59   Yeah, I mean honestly like I first of all full credit to them this name did not leak at all

02:02:05   everyone's thought the name was either gonna be reality Pro and reality OS or

02:02:10   Maybe rally Pro and then XR OS like those those were the names that because those were in the code

02:02:15   Those are in all the open source code and I bet the symbol the e-num will probably still be reality OS and they did trademark

02:02:20   XR OS but they you know you trademark stuff just defensively to make sure one else no one else has it, right?

02:02:24   Yeah, and and there are there are a few different places in the code so far where you see the word reality like in

02:02:29   Various enum values and stuff like that. I mean reality composer is what they did brand that particular

02:02:35   Product that is related to this but yet reality OS was the code name. Maybe they'll change it

02:02:39   That's the type of thing they can change with it with the source code before release. No, but I see I think

02:02:44   vision is what they're gonna go with and I think the reason why this makes sense is

02:02:50   When you look at this product relative to

02:02:54   Everything else in the market in this in this kind of area

02:02:57   everything else is about creating a virtual environment inside the headset and the the AR

02:03:04   Or okay, you know looking through

02:03:06   Transparency kind of features are kind of afterthoughts for most of them in this case

02:03:11   They leaned way into that it so they want the name the product everything to be about

02:03:18   We are viewing we're making you participate in the real world

02:03:23   While creating a partial virtual world most of the time for you

02:03:26   We're not leaning that heavily into full blackout mode where you're totally isolated from everything else

02:03:33   the whole product is designed around that and that will set it apart greatly from its competitors in most ways and

02:03:39   So calling it reality or calling it. Sorry calling it vision Pro and vision OS

02:03:45   That sets the tone for this product which is this is not about creating alternative realities for you most of the time. This is about

02:03:53   Integrating the technology more into your your surroundings and you know making you remain part of the world

02:04:00   It's about your vision

02:04:02   Mm-hmm of the world and augmenting your vision not

02:04:06   isolating you and making look like a weirdo and

02:04:09   To whatever to whatever that's possible and you know, we'll see how that goes

02:04:13   you know once we actually have the product which is not gonna be anytime soon, but

02:04:17   Setting that as the tone and and setting that right the meaning of the expectation like I can tell you when

02:04:23   When they when they did that unveiling video, you know, and here it is and you see that you see the thing and you're like

02:04:29   Okay, cool, you know goggles looks cool in a nice glass and metal you see a bunch of cameras on the bottom

02:04:34   Everyone was like super excited, but that was pretty much with an expectations and it was masterful

02:04:38   They did it when that video shows the woman's face who was wearing it and it like it lights up and her eyes are there

02:04:44   Everyone in the audience gasped when that like it was like whoa

02:04:49   Like that that was the moment of the keynote was when you saw her eyes

02:04:54   It everyone I'm telling you it was to feel that in that audience was really cool and because that surprised everyone

02:05:01   You know

02:05:02   We heard the rumors that it had an outward-facing screen to show the eyes of the wearer and that sounded like the most ridiculous

02:05:08   Everyone's like that's some people thought that that must have been like a joke to suss out leakers. It sounded ridiculous

02:05:15   And it might be ridiculous. I don't know yet, but if it works at all the way that they

02:05:23   Demoed it working or show it working like in the videos again. I haven't seen one or tried one yet, but

02:05:28   Man, if it works like that that is

02:05:31   potentially

02:05:34   Amazing now it has to be perfect

02:05:37   To not be creepy and this this bear, but it's not gonna be perfect

02:05:41   Like they one of the things I think didn't leak is the lenticular thing where it doesn't just show a single image

02:05:46   So if you're viewing it from an angle you see a second image. That's more on the angle

02:05:49   You're looking at it, but bottom line is the headset six out sticks out from your face by an inch or two

02:05:54   Your eyes aren't there your eyes are way back farther

02:05:58   And they do the best they can to make your eyes not seem like they're on the surface of the headset

02:06:04   But they're not where your eyes are supposed to be so the front view they showed in the keynote is putting its best face forward

02:06:09   Right sure any angle other than dead-on it's gonna be tricky but kudos for trying

02:06:15   we'll have to see how it looks in real life like you can imagine a

02:06:19   future version of this where they use

02:06:22   Transparent OLEDs that you actually do see your eyeballs through

02:06:26   You know like like the illusion that they were giving you in that reveal that could be real with

02:06:32   Transparent OLED screens that I think LG made a transparent OLED TV, and it's it's kind of silly technology

02:06:38   But it does exist it just that you know it to do a headset with that where we that doesn't quite work right now

02:06:43   But it's not out of the realm of possibility as this thing shrinks to have something like that

02:06:48   But yeah, I agree with you Marco that vision is a good name for a thing where they're trying to pitch the the AR aspect

02:06:54   of it but

02:06:56   So I

02:06:58   Made this comment on mass, and I was watching I

02:07:00   Feel like this entire section of the keynote was missing one little tiny piece of text

02:07:07   Which I was it on the commercial it probably will be on the commercial, but anyway

02:07:10   Images simulated oh no that that needed to be on every single

02:07:17   Portion of the keynote when they were showing you what the wearer of this is supposedly seeing because all those images are simulated right

02:07:24   Oh, no

02:07:24   They were not I have it on good authority that everything that was shown from the perspective of the wearer

02:07:31   Was actual capture from the real hardware. We'll see we'll see how that goes like here's the thing like

02:07:38   Obviously the production values on this are very high so even the things they just film in real life look better than they would look

02:07:44   If you just you know took your iPhone and took a picture of something because everything's well well lit and so on and so forth

02:07:48   And maybe that's true, but the thing about

02:07:50   AR is

02:07:53   That you know you mentioned the other headsets don't mean that heavily into they just have that feature as an afterthought

02:07:57   They the other headsets like the gaming headsets they have that feature

02:08:00   So you don't like hurt yourself getting in and out of your chair like they have that feature

02:08:03   So you don't trip and fall like you need to

02:08:05   Be able to see the outside world for a moment to fiddle with something on your PC

02:08:10   To grab something on your desk to find your mug right it's a utilitarian function because otherwise you'd basically be wearing a blindfold

02:08:16   Stumbling around your house with an expensive thing on your face right whereas Apple saying no

02:08:21   This isn't like an afterthought to keep you from tripping. This is a major feature of the product. We're leaning heavily into AR

02:08:26   right where that's where they differ where they meet is

02:08:30   at the fact that

02:08:33   screens and we talked about this before we talked about HDR

02:08:36   Screens currently do not have the same fidelity as your eyes looking at the real world

02:08:40   There's more dynamic range in the real world than there are on even the most amazing screens

02:08:45   And so there's always and no matter how good the lenses are no matter how good the resolution is

02:08:50   there's always that little difference between

02:08:52   Looking at the room with your eyeballs and looking through a screen because the screen isn't able to

02:08:57   reproduce the fidelity of the room in all conditions

02:09:00   And that is where the crappy PC

02:09:05   Gaming headset with an afterthought looking at the room feature meets this one because they are both limited by

02:09:10   Screen technology now granted the screen is gonna be probably better than the gaming thing you have unless you have a very very high-end gaming

02:09:18   Headset, but it's not going to be better enough to feel like you were really looking at your room

02:09:23   What you're really looking at is a video of your room or like if you imagine take your iPhone and look at the screen

02:09:28   It's got 1600 nits of brightness right a really amazing fidelity, but you pointed it in the room

02:09:33   It doesn't quite look the same as looking at the room with your actual eyeballs, which I don't be fair

02:09:37   I don't think is that big of a deal, but I think that's the part where you need the image assimilated disclaimer

02:09:42   And if they weren't simulated

02:09:43   I think they are misleading in the way that all advertising and misleading is that they are showing an idealized scenario

02:09:49   your results in your dim computer room or

02:09:52   Actual real home are probably going to be different. No, I mean again

02:09:57   I have it on very good authority that they were actually captured from the hardware like so, you know

02:10:02   Not everything in the video was user viewpoint

02:10:06   Like, you know, there were things that were showing like, you know outside of the video like outside of the user what they look like

02:10:10   And in those kind of cases compositing might have been used, you know, or maybe you know

02:10:13   Maybe for the eye images because it's hard to film screens, you know

02:10:16   But that what it's showing inside the headset that was all hardware captured and that is amazing

02:10:24   Well, it has the advantage of being incorporated into a video like it's these are being incorporated into a video

02:10:30   Which is also limited by the limitations of a screen or whatever when I was comparing it to is looking at your actual living

02:10:35   Room versus looking at a video of your living room. Whereas this everything is video of living room

02:10:39   But it is impressive that this is all captured from device

02:10:41   But I in the ad especially I kept looking for images simulated and didn't see it

02:10:46   No, and and again like, you know, you can yeah if you want to criticize ideal conditions. Yeah, they were ideal conditions

02:10:52   I'm sure but but no it's like this was the real deal

02:10:55   They actually captured from the hardware. The only way to solve this is for Apple to send us all headsets so we can try it ourselves

02:11:00   Seeing will be believing no and that's like so going back on you know on that point the the one thing

02:11:06   You know people people who I ran into somebody who had tried it

02:11:09   And I also you know, I asked various Apple people who?

02:11:13   Who have had a chance to work on it or try it, you know?

02:11:16   Whoever I run into whoever whoever would talk to me

02:11:18   I asked various people and the one thing I want to know first is how convincing is the transparency simulation?

02:11:26   you know like how when you put it on how much do you feel like you're looking through it and

02:11:30   What every single person who has tried it has told me so far again most of them are Apple people

02:11:35   So, you know, they're there. I'm sure they're optimistic, but they've all said it's a really well done illusion

02:11:40   So that's what I really want to know because that that matters so much and you know if it took

02:11:44   You know, obviously what Apple is going for here again with the whole the whole vision angle

02:11:51   Focusing much more in AR than VR making it much much better of an integrated citizen of the environment around you in terms of

02:11:59   You know, it senses when people come up to you

02:12:00   You don't look like you're well you do look ridiculous, but you look less ridiculous than if you're just in a VR headset like, you know

02:12:06   the integration with the outside world in this product is

02:12:10   Clearly that was clearly like the number one design goal and then everything else fell from that

02:12:15   if it took them until now to

02:12:20   Deliver that tech to do that that makes sense like that makes total sense like they they couldn't make a good enough

02:12:26   You know illusion of transparency with a very opaque device

02:12:31   They couldn't do that

02:12:32   Well enough until they had whatever these components are, you know, these these super high-end little screens

02:12:38   The you know, the cameras the lenses whatever, you know, whatever

02:12:41   Much larger combination of stuff that is doing this

02:12:44   it makes sense that they waited till now to do this and it makes sense that this product is starting at such a high price point

02:12:49   because they probably don't they probably never want to deliver a

02:12:52   Vision series headset from Apple that doesn't have this convincing illusion and that's pretty cool

02:12:59   Like because that that really does set it apart from everything else, you know

02:13:02   There are there are some very high-end very specialized headsets that have that kind of thing

02:13:06   but they're even more expensive and and much less general-purpose anything much more specialized and

02:13:11   Even they I don't from people who have used them. I don't think they do as good of a job

02:13:15   So that's again

02:13:16   That's the one thing I really want to know and that's I'm hoping to get a chance to try one before I leave here

02:13:20   I really want to know how that illusion is the rest of the stuff with like, you know

02:13:24   What apps can do and everything? I believe them on that. I believe all that

02:13:27   I'm really curious how good that illusion is and secondarily

02:13:29   I'm curious how sharp text actually really is because that's another thing like, you know

02:13:33   if you've ever used one of the gaming headsets there, you know, their resolution is garbage by comparison and

02:13:37   Text is so chunky and blocky and the idea of having your Mac show a little 4k virtual screen and your viewport

02:13:46   And being able to do work on that that seems you know

02:13:49   That seems optimistic unless the text is very very sharp what they say is that it is

02:13:54   Yeah, so let me I was gonna touch that in a little bit but because you brought it up now

02:13:57   This is a thing that I just want to make clear to people we've alluded to it many times

02:14:01   I'm talking about the specs, but just to make it very clear

02:14:03   They said that you have more than 4k per eyeball on the little screens that are inside there

02:14:08   So there's one thing I don't know but I'm willing to give Apple the benefit of the doubt

02:14:12   And what I don't know is so if you had both of your two eyes looking at a 4k monitor

02:14:16   You're looking at a 4k monitor

02:14:18   But if each of your eyeballs has its own dedicated 4k screen that should be more resolution than a 4k monitor

02:14:25   Is it double is it 8k? I don't know but it seems it stands to reason to my you know

02:14:29   I don't actually understand how this works, but I'm willing to believe that having

02:14:32   4k of dedicated pixels for each eyeball

02:14:35   Means that you can show more than 4k pixels because each guy has a slightly different view on the world and you should be able

02:14:42   To resolve more dots. I don't actually know if that's true, but I'm willing to let's just give it the most optimistic one and say

02:14:46   Let me let me read to you from the marketing website more pixels and a 4k TV for each eye

02:14:53   The custom micro OLED display system uses 23 million pixels delivering stunning resolution in colors and specifically does not and a specifically designed

02:15:00   Three element lens creates the feeling of a display that's everywhere you look

02:15:03   So yeah that says to me more than 4k per right

02:15:07   But what I'm getting at it

02:15:08   Does that mean that you can see the equivalent of 8k pixels because each get each eye is 4k and they see slightly different pixels

02:15:15   Right, and here's what I'm getting at right. So let's just assume it's 8k, right?

02:15:17   That's 8k for your entire field of view

02:15:22   Right. So when they show a monitor floating in front of you that can't be an 8k monitor at true resolution

02:15:29   because if it wasn't 8k monitor true resolution, it would literally extend from edge to edge of your field of view and that would not

02:15:35   Be a comfortable way to look at a monitor because you just it's too wide for you to see

02:15:39   So every time they say oh you can put a monitor in front of you and it's like a 4k monitor

02:15:43   I start doing the math and say is that filling

02:15:45   50% of my field of view because the only way it's gonna be true 4k to get the Marcos point about sharp text is

02:15:51   If it's filling 50% of my field of view because in the utmost optimistic scenario

02:15:55   I have 8k of pixels between in front of me and if you're gonna put a 4k monitor on it

02:16:00   Well, not not 50% you don't name it because it's not quite the same

02:16:03   But anyway, like you don't think that every single rectangle you see can be 4k

02:16:08   the entire field of view for your left eye is 4k and the entire field of view for your right eye is 4k and the

02:16:13   Entire field of view for both eyes in the optimistic scenario with 8k, right?

02:16:16   So I think it will be the resolution will be good probably matching the best gaming headsets

02:16:22   But you won't for example, you won't be able to have a pro display XDR at true pixel resolution at a reasonable

02:16:29   Filling of your field of vision because right now my field of vision is I can see my wall

02:16:33   I can see my desk. I'm looking straight at my XDR, right?

02:16:36   You cannot have a 6k screen on there and see all the pixels now

02:16:41   Do you need to see all the pixels?

02:16:42   Probably not because it you can't resolve the pixels on a 6k screen from a comfortable distance anyway

02:16:46   So I think it will be fine and good, but I think a lot of people

02:16:50   Look at this and say all I have in front of me is an LG 4k monitor and now I'm gonna be able to have

02:16:56   You know three of them

02:16:58   Like yeah, you can look at each one in turn and you'll more or less get true pixels out of it

02:17:04   but we

02:17:06   We don't have a glut of resolution to pass around because remember what you're seeing in this headset is not just the monitor

02:17:12   It's the entire world whether it is transparency showing you what the cameras see the outside world or a simulated world with those backdrops

02:17:19   That they were showing so please do keep that in mind when thinking about the resolution of this

02:17:22   the I think it will be good and

02:17:24   Probably better than any headsets anyone has tried and certainly better than a $300 headset, but we need more pixels

02:17:30   So stay tuned for the coming years

02:17:32   Well, it's what it's worth. They said both in the keynote and the State of the Union and I'm now I'm jumping ahead

02:17:37   but when you use a Mac with the device, which they said in State of the Union you can get a

02:17:42   Virtual display from your Mac. Well that was stated during the keynote, but during the State of the Union

02:17:47   They said you just look at it

02:17:49   So they showed a MacBook Pro with the screen open and the the wearer of the vision Pro looked down and you know

02:17:54   There's a brief pause and then suddenly that Mac screen dimmed from the perspective of the vision Pro user

02:18:01   Maybe it didn't real life as well

02:18:02   And then this 4k screen was you know dropped in the middle of their field of view

02:18:07   but they specifically said 4k both in the keynote and the State of the Union and and I

02:18:13   Bet that's not an accident. You know, it's exactly what you're saying

02:18:16   You know, you can only get but so many, you know bits or so you can only get but so much resolution

02:18:20   With what's in the device already?

02:18:23   But to go back I think when it's slightly my fault. We're getting the weeds a little bit

02:18:29   I think we should talk a little bit more about you know, yeah us

02:18:31   We should talk a little bit more broadly about what this is. I

02:18:35   I'm not sure what to make of this and obviously I've only been sitting with it for a few hours now in a figurative sense, but

02:18:44   I don't I don't know what I expected but this is not what I expected and I think in a good way

02:18:50   I think I expected a in Marco. I believe you had said something about this a minute ago

02:18:55   I'd expected a well the world has disappeared now because I have my eye but my headset on

02:19:00   And that never really appealed to me much

02:19:03   and I think I really dig the idea of this being kind of a halfway between VR and

02:19:11   Regular reality and I think I really dig even though we heard

02:19:16   What was going to be done with with the digital crown and how you'll adjust how much like not literal transparency?

02:19:22   But you know, it's kind of transparency you have with the with the outside world

02:19:25   Seeing it as best as one can on a flat screen seeing it in action

02:19:31   It looked really cool and I and a lot of people were snarking on Mastodon about

02:19:37   I what is it? I say the thing on the front that it reveals the wearer's eyes and

02:19:41   everyone said it looks like garbage and was uncanny valley uncanny valley uncanny valley and I didn't get that at all like it looked

02:19:48   Really good to me and I I hear what you guys are saying about being off-axis and so on and so forth

02:19:53   But from what they showed he looked really good and I loved that it showed

02:19:58   With like kind of the almost top of a home pod blur

02:20:04   It showed when you were really engaged with something and not paying attention the outside world, but then it was fairly

02:20:10   Transparent looking when you were interacting with the outside world, and I don't know it

02:20:15   I feel like I'm not sure when I would use this device because no matter what they said

02:20:23   I don't feel like it's a around other people device

02:20:28   but that being said I

02:20:33   Think this appeals to me more than I expected. Wait. Well, I expected of course that I would be wowed by the keynote

02:20:38   Which I was but it I feel like I can see places in my life where this could be neat

02:20:44   Leaving aside all the social stigma that will unquestionably come from this

02:20:49   Like what kind of jackass is gonna wear this on an airplane? I think it's perfect for perfect for an airplane

02:20:55   Like no, no, but hear me hear me out like from a social perspective

02:20:59   You're an idiot if you're wearing this on an airplane. Why but just hold on just hold on because you look like a fool

02:21:05   You look like you look like a fool. You're in your seat

02:21:07   You're watching a movie on basically a very compact screen. Look at this jackass with their

02:21:12   $3,500 fancy lad people people wear masks like this just so they can sleep. It's better than a neck donut

02:21:18   Can't reach over and smack you to like I'm used to being able to do in years past

02:21:23   So so I think what I keep coming back to with this and specifically with the social stigma about it like

02:21:29   Watching their video of the dude recording his like kids birthday that it just seems like such an obnoxious

02:21:37   Time don't have a physical to have a physical barrier between you and your children

02:21:42   Like I understand what they're driving it. I understand they've got this whole 3d camera thing

02:21:46   I get that they could just put that on their phone by the way Apple as a free free tip for you exactly but I

02:21:53   Get what they're driving out here, but what an obnoxious time to do and so all this social stuff

02:21:56   I disagree on that by the way, just for reference. I mean the birthday one you disagree with. Yeah

02:22:01   Well, okay, like case you finish I'll get to it. Thank you. I appreciate it

02:22:04   So I keep coming back to the social stigma for this

02:22:07   I think will be ugly like you're gonna look like an idiot wearing this but but and this is what I couldn't get to a

02:22:13   second ago I

02:22:14   remember

02:22:15   Vividly when the air pods first came out and if you had air pods

02:22:20   I feel like everyone looked at you like you were a lunatic

02:22:23   For a couple of months and then after that everyone had air pods

02:22:28   It's so suddenly this thing that I and I had air pods and even I would look at people

02:22:34   Particularly before mine came in I would look at people and be like, oh

02:22:37   Yes, look at you with your fancy earbuds that don't have any wires. I'm too good for wires

02:22:43   Look at me and that lasted not very long at all and now

02:22:49   Everywhere you go at any moment in life

02:22:51   Including times when I don't think it's particularly appropriate to have air pods in I see air pods in I've just the other day

02:22:58   I was I was at dinner somewhere with the family and I looked over at the table next to us and there was another family

02:23:04   At dinner and one of the kids had an air pod in there at family dinner and presumably family dinner was too boring

02:23:11   And they needed to have an air pod in to have music during family dinner

02:23:15   Leaving aside the fact that the restaurant was playing music. They needed to have their music kids these days

02:23:19   I tell you but that's how prevalent and and that's how often you see air pods now that it's not unusual

02:23:26   to see an air pod in a kid's ear at family dinner and

02:23:29   I feel like sitting here today if I saw the idiot next to me in the airplane wearing these these goggles

02:23:37   I would think what a dork

02:23:38   but I

02:23:40   Think it will not take long for me to change my tune and to come back around to what John I think was going to say

02:23:45   What an unbelievably awesome time to put on these dorky goggles

02:23:49   how amazing would it be to have this like 50 foot screen in front of you with your air pods with noise cancellation and

02:23:57   Effectively, you know surround sound and you in while we're flying across the country to WWDC next year when Apple actually invites all of us

02:24:05   Imagine being able to watch a movie that whole way across the country like that sounds so cool in

02:24:11   Such a perfect use case for this and and I can't wait one way or another

02:24:16   I can't wait to try it. I think I'll take a little bit longer for a 3500 headset

02:24:19   You're right. You're right versus 160 dollar. It's a lot of girls for this kind of expensive for air pods, too

02:24:25   But yeah, I'm not so much worried about the social stigma

02:24:28   but to get to they get overcome the social stigma thing you need to get over the

02:24:32   Is this a product that people want?

02:24:35   to use

02:24:36   scenario and I'm not you know, we'll see we'll see how that goes because none of us have tried it yet and it I mean

02:24:41   It definitely does look early because it is

02:24:43   In the grand scheme of Apple products big and clunky, right? I mean, it's it's it's amazing technology

02:24:49   It's at the limit of what they can do

02:24:50   But there's only so much they can do unlike the air pods which were you know, the the perfect size practically from day one

02:24:57   In fact, they've actually gotten a little bit bigger over time because they've packed more stuff into them

02:25:00   but these are

02:25:02   These are an amazing feat of technology that is still nevertheless

02:25:05   Kind of clunky and actually looking at the physical form of this

02:25:09   I said this is one of the things that I was gonna be looking at to see how

02:25:11   How they what this product looks like does it does it look like it was shaped?

02:25:16   By its utility or does it look like it was shaped by somebody who wanted it to look beautiful and I can

02:25:22   Pretty confidently say that no one tried to shape this to look particularly beautiful because it doesn't look particularly beautiful

02:25:28   It's it is a little bit clunky and awkward because it has to be here's the thing that I was most surprised by I kept saving

02:25:34   screenshots of people doing mock-ups based on rumors and stuff or

02:25:38   Mockups based on their own ideas of what it would look like

02:25:41   The one that I kept seeing I was probably 9 to 5 Mac or I don't know who originated it

02:25:45   But it was it was that thing

02:25:47   You see people who do mock-ups do all the time where they just take existing Apple products and like Photoshop the pieces together

02:25:51   So it was like basically a ski goggle type headset kind of looking like this and then the band

02:25:57   Was like an Apple watch band, right?

02:25:59   They just turned sideways and like made right and I was like have these people never seen an actual headset

02:26:05   You can't just take a single watch band and put a strap that goes straight back from the ski goggles

02:26:09   That just literally does not fit on human heads. They know what human heads look like

02:26:13   Have you ever put on a pair of ski goggles?

02:26:15   Even a literal pair of ski goggles has a wider band than that at its elastic. You can't put the Apple watch band there

02:26:20   So I'm glad to see that this doesn't look like that

02:26:23   But you can tell that the people who are feeding them probably had seen this because the thing that surprised me the most

02:26:29   Is that it has a band that goes back?

02:26:32   It's part the band is perpendicular to the surface of the glasses and that's it and most of the other headsets have something

02:26:39   That goes towards the top of the head. You know what I mean? Right? Yeah, there was no top strap, right?

02:26:46   The the PS VR one and two have it most of the other like big gaming headsets have it

02:26:52   But this one goes straight back now granted

02:26:54   They go straight back to basically a catcher's mitt that cradles the back of your head and I can't take fabric thing

02:26:59   So that's why I think you know that people have worn this. I'm sure it works for its purpose

02:27:03   It's not just a skinny straight back

02:27:05   It's a big cup back a big flexi cup with the adjustable things on it that kind of grips your head with the little you know

02:27:11   I'm it does the job

02:27:13   You know

02:27:14   It doesn't have the top strap

02:27:15   Which I think they can get away with basically because of the battery pack basically because of the the incredible

02:27:21   Technology and lightweight the fact they don't need to hang this off the top of your head because apparently that back of your head grippy

02:27:28   Thing can handle it for you

02:27:30   So I'm very curious to try this thing on to see how the fit feels because if you ever looked at the back of a human

02:27:36   Skull like human skulls are not spheres, right?

02:27:39   They not your your eyeballs are not in the center of them. The back of them are not

02:27:43   Symmetrical like that. They're they're weird and bulgy and stuff

02:27:46   So if you try to draw a human head inside like the side view of this thing

02:27:51   You'll start realizing that it is actually a little bit tricky where that thing lands

02:27:55   But as Apple said they look they studied lots of heads or whatever. Thanks Richard Howard said we studied thousands of heads

02:28:01   They also studied thousands of years when they made the original air pods and they apparently they didn't study Marcos

02:28:06   So fitness is still potentially an issue, but I am glad to see that this thing

02:28:11   Tries to get a good grip on your head with only a single strap about a top strap. I hope it works

02:28:18   I hope they pulled it off. I hope it doesn't sag

02:28:20   Looking at the side things, especially the audio pods. They are particularly awkward

02:28:24   Especially awkward if that I don't know Mark. Did you anyone confirm that you can use as their pods?

02:28:30   I would assume you can but they didn't say that today

02:28:32   You can use it with air pods or and I don't know if other blue tea probably anyway

02:28:36   You can't use it with air pods the the built-in speakers that are on the head strap, basically

02:28:40   They had like special word from like audio pods or something

02:28:44   But so the built-ins built-in speakers they are not like bone conduction transducers

02:28:49   They are they are regular speakers. They're just very close to your ears

02:28:52   But there is like a gap between the speakers in your ears

02:28:55   And so it's kind of like an open headphone you will hear outside noise

02:28:59   We asked I asked when I was when I was in the the hands-off area

02:29:02   How is the leakage of sound like people who had worked on it?

02:29:05   And you know, you can't they can't tell us that much because it's still PR, you know

02:29:09   They're going to tell great detail

02:29:11   but it might leak a little bit of sound if you're really close because I was saying like, you know, obviously you probably

02:29:16   Wouldn't wear it on a plane because it's too much ambient noise. Yes, that's correct

02:29:19   You know the planes are too loud you wear air pods on a plane for the noise cancellation

02:29:23   But I was like, you know if you're wearing on a bus with the passenger next to you hear your stuff

02:29:27   Probably not, you know

02:29:30   Like maybe if you go really close to your head like they might if you're like, you know

02:29:33   Maybe like if you're if you're like any distant kind of thing kind of like yeah

02:29:37   Yeah, but yeah, not like not like wearing wide open headphones like the super open headphones not like that apparently

02:29:43   So we'll see how that goes. But yes in most cases that you need isolation you'd be wearing air pods

02:29:47   Yeah, the other thing they said that I was encouraged by was the fact. Well, I don't know again. I have to rewatch the video

02:29:53   They seem to make it say that you there's multiple fabric thingies that you can attach to it to fit your face

02:29:59   Yes, so on so on the fit front they were they were pretty clear about this and but both in you know

02:30:05   Public and hands-on hands-off. Excuse me hands-off area

02:30:08   There are there are multiple straps that we'll be able to fit also the like the face gasket piece

02:30:14   Which I think they called the light shield something like that light seal. That's it. Yeah light seal so that piece

02:30:20   The implication is that there's gonna be many different sizes of them not just like, you know with air pods

02:30:26   You get like a little, you know, the three little ear plugs of the you know

02:30:28   small medium large

02:30:30   No, the implication is there's gonna be many different sizes and shapes and that you basically go to an Apple Store to get fit

02:30:36   Also interesting little tidbit I asked about, you know, the different eye, you know lens things I asked about, you know stuff like, you know the

02:30:44   Adjustment for things like inner pupillary distance the IPD

02:30:47   Because the spacing between the eyepieces and you know, it's you know, any kind of headset or binoculars even you can adjust that spacing

02:30:54   Apparently they are automatic and motorized for the IPD adjustment. So oh, that's cool. Yeah, they show that they show that in the keynote

02:31:01   They showed them adjusting

02:31:02   Yeah, you just put it on and adjust that and then for the for the lenses

02:31:06   I don't know how this is gonna work in the stores yet

02:31:08   but what they're doing in the demos apparently is

02:31:10   You give them your eyeglasses that you're wearing and they like shoot a light through it and then they bring out

02:31:16   Perfectly matched lenses for you. So if they're doing that for the hands-on demos

02:31:20   I'm thinking maybe they also will have that ability in Apple retail stores when these things launch

02:31:24   So maybe there will be a you know, you go in you put your glasses in a thing

02:31:29   They measure your head and they bring out. Okay, here's your perfect fit

02:31:32   try it on, you know, so what they're going for apparently is

02:31:35   They have again 30 thousands of heads

02:31:38   and they do appear to be taking comfort very seriously and making fit very good because

02:31:43   For the illusion to work you can't have any light leaking in it really has to be a very good fit in lots of different

02:31:49   Ways comfort for light isolation for you know long-term wear ability for accessibility

02:31:54   You really need a lot of different

02:31:57   Adaptation ability to different people's needs and bodies

02:32:00   So they are apparently doing that that they have lots of different, you know

02:32:05   light seal things lots of different lens options and everything so

02:32:09   Apparently it's gonna be really good and in all those ways and you know

02:32:14   It's one of the things you kind of just have to try to tell like how many people will this work for?

02:32:17   apparently a lot

02:32:19   also on the realm of

02:32:21   Motion sickness which they had some euphemism for like motion sensitivity or something like that. Oh

02:32:26   Sorry motion discomfort. They called it in the notes

02:32:30   But yeah, but on that they you know, they they talk a lot about the r1 chip that they've they've done everything

02:32:37   You know to try to make stuff as real-time as possible

02:32:40   They talk a lot about that 12 millisecond processing latency, which is way below what everyone else is doing in the market

02:32:46   that apparently I asked some people like hey, you know, what does that mean in real life like for motion sensitive people and

02:32:52   Everyone claims that it basically eliminates motion sickness now

02:32:56   we'll see if that is true and for how many people but

02:33:00   They they're they're talking a big game and and so far the the handful of people who have tried it

02:33:06   Seem to all back that up. So it sounds like they they're on the right path here. I am

02:33:12   Really dying to try this thing

02:33:14   I really want to see how good the how good the comfort is how good the latency is how good the illusion is whether I

02:33:19   Get motion sick whether I can see everything sharply

02:33:21   I am I'm just I'm so curious but again for the handful of people who have tried it the reports so far are very good

02:33:28   Yeah, there one order of magnitude off of the latency

02:33:31   Remember that video I always post from my I posted my blog of the Microsoft thing where they had an adjustable latency

02:33:36   Where they get to do it a thousand milliseconds a hundred ten one of just scribbling on a screen with their finger

02:33:41   One one millisecond is where you start getting down to the point where it's like it seems like it's real time

02:33:45   Ten ten twelve is good there, you know, you know

02:33:49   They got one more water of magnitude to to travel down

02:33:52   But like I said before a lot of the motion sickness stuff

02:33:55   Has more to do with the software than the hardware the hardware is your limit

02:33:58   You're never gonna be better than your hardware

02:34:00   But you can make software experiences that make people motion sick with with no latency because you know

02:34:06   Because you they're controlling everything that you see and if they make you see stuff that your inner ear disagrees with because you're sitting on

02:34:12   A couch you're gonna get motion sick. That is the origin of motion sickness

02:34:16   So software is a big factor and that's where by the way the AR stuff

02:34:19   Comes in handy because that really tries to root you in a room that is not moving, right?

02:34:24   So if you're looking at a bunch of virtual screens in your living room

02:34:28   motion sickness is probably not gonna be a big problem if you're flying an x-wing through a canyon when your actual body is sitting on

02:34:34   You know on a couch motion sickness may be a problem no matter what the latency is

02:34:39   So that you know, it's a big software issue and speaking of that by the way

02:34:41   So we haven't really talked about this but like before we were saying what are they gonna do with this headset?

02:34:45   What am I supposed to do with it?

02:34:47   Is it gonna be like the watch where they say can be all things to all people and I figure what it is and the answer

02:34:51   From this presentation was no Apple has a very clear idea of what they think you can do with this and it is narrow

02:34:56   Hideo Kojima was at Apple

02:34:59   He was not there to pitch games for the headset this

02:35:02   Incredibly powerful headset was not presented as a gaming device by Apple at all

02:35:07   Which is shocking to a lot of people because like the their competition hardware wise are all gaming headsets and apples

02:35:14   I mean they mentioned, you know, it is a 3d thing. You can make game store, you know, it'll like games will work

02:35:20   It'll be fine. But Apple is like no, this is not a product for people who want to play video games

02:35:25   Which was very clear. What is it for? It's for people who want to basically

02:35:30   Use your Apple devices, right?

02:35:34   Now granted this is an Apple device and you're using it but what are you using it for?

02:35:37   Like I kept thinking it was basically is like the pro display XDR but for your face. This is a display product

02:35:45   What does it let you display running applications?

02:35:47   Oh, and by the way

02:35:47   It also runs them because it's not like it's just a display like it has an m2 in there and it will run your iPad apps

02:35:52   And I run your iPhone apps and you can look at your Mac screen

02:35:55   But in the end it's saying like hey all the things that you normally do

02:35:58   imagine if you could do them without a bunch of monitors arrayed around you, but instead a

02:36:04   Thing on your face because some of us may have a monitor in front of us

02:36:07   but how many people can have

02:36:09   Five monitors that we can swipe away and replace with other monitors and windows and floating around

02:36:13   That was their pitch with this device you you use it to you know, you put it on and you do

02:36:18   computing type stuff

02:36:20   video-conferencing using all your apps that you're familiar with and new kinds of apps that we you know that we want you to make with

02:36:25   This SDK and they show like a 3d satellite spinning around and stuff like that or whatever

02:36:28   I feel like this was a very clear message of what Apple thinks this device for are they right?

02:36:34   Is this what it's going to be for?

02:36:35   The most touchy one is the one we touched on before was like

02:36:38   It's dad gonna wear these at the birthday party so he can get 3d video on the one hand

02:36:42   3d video is super cool on the other hand

02:36:44   You can get 3d video on a phone if you just separate the two cameras by a little bit

02:36:48   And it's way more, you know, it's not just like socially acceptable people will get used to it

02:36:53   Your kid should see your face and if he sees your face and you're holding the rectangle of the iPhone

02:36:58   He can still kind of see your face, right?

02:37:00   So when these things are actual glasses sure wear them and record the party when their goggles

02:37:06   It seems like a shame to use this as a capture device for 3d video as a viewing device for 3d video to relive memories

02:37:12   Of your kids second birthday

02:37:13   Awesome as a capture device

02:37:15   It happens to be the only Apple device with two cameras separated by enough distance to get good stereo video

02:37:20   Which is kind of a shame

02:37:22   Well, I mean on that front, you know

02:37:24   Again, this is very early for this stuff

02:37:26   Now that first of all now that there will be a viewing device that can show 3d content that certainly creates more demand for 3d capture devices

02:37:34   so maybe we'll see more in the future, but if you look back like this is kind of like the

02:37:38   the original

02:37:41   VHS sized camcorders remember when those came out like in you know, the 80s 90s like them on your shoulder

02:37:46   Yeah

02:37:46   those giant it was just a VCR on your shoulder like a fully they were so big and so heavy that

02:37:52   When you know when somebody usually like a dad, you know would take that out

02:37:56   It was a big deal and you take it out every so often not at every possible occasion

02:38:01   you would take it out for stuff like birthdays and Christmas and whatever and

02:38:04   You would film around for a little while and then you'd set it down and you see you wouldn't be capturing the entire

02:38:10   Event that way because it was way too big and heavy and the battery sucked and you know

02:38:14   It was it was an it was kind of an occasional brief capture device

02:38:19   and I think that's kind of what this is gonna be like I think the appeal of

02:38:23   capturing 3d video and audio is so compelling that people will do it and

02:38:30   You know people will gladly

02:38:33   Put this thing on and capture a few minutes of the party and then they'll take it off and go back to the party

02:38:38   like I don't I don't think people are gonna be spending the entire party in the headset and

02:38:42   Nor should they probably but they can't because the battery life won't let them. Yeah

02:38:47   Right, but I think I think it will be totally it'll become

02:38:51   Fairly reasonable like it won't it won't look weird after a little while, you know to Casey's point earlier

02:38:56   Like it'll become fairly common for people to take this out and capture

02:39:00   Parts of experiences and then go back to the real world. So and I don't think it's a bad thing, you know until we have

02:39:07   3d capturing iPhones, which we might never have or might not be for a while

02:39:12   That's totally fine. And and by the way, and it certainly raises the question of like for parents who were in their phones all the time

02:39:19   How present are they really, you know, I think that's that's a separate

02:39:23   Separate question but but you know certainly one worth considering that you know, this this makes it more obvious

02:39:28   But you know, is it actually different in person presence levels? Maybe not

02:39:34   Anyway, yeah think of it as a giant old camcorder

02:39:37   There's gonna be this time in history for a little while where this is the only slash best way to capture 3d video of what's going

02:39:45   On but capturing 3d video is gonna be so compelling like that. I cannot wait to have that

02:39:51   I I think that's gonna be amazing. You could have used it on Nintendo DS years years ago

02:39:55   Anyway, I think that's I think that thing's gonna be amazing for that brand and as for the use cases

02:40:02   I think it's wise to lean more into the media stuff and the general computing stuff because

02:40:08   First of all every single time we talked about like hey, what's what are VR headsets good for?

02:40:15   We always had people write it. Yes. I know people watch porn in them

02:40:18   Like I thanks for telling us everyone didn't have a section of the keynote on that. It's weird. Yeah

02:40:23   We are fully aware that that's a thing also. Yeah, you people watch movies in them, you know that aren't porn

02:40:28   They didn't have that that framework that detects sensitive images. It would just blur everything you see. Yeah, right

02:40:33   It's based on the new sensor anyway, so yes

02:40:37   I'm sure it'll be great for that and yes people will buy it for that and even if you only buy it to watch videos

02:40:42   On you know movies and TV shows and stuff. I mean look iPads are capable of doing amazing things

02:40:49   They have much of the same computational power

02:40:51   They have you know amazing capabilities and yet what most people do on iPads is watch video on them and that's that's fine

02:40:56   You know, so yes, they made this ridiculous amazing

02:40:59   Headset if most people end up watching movies on it a lot or other activities that involve watching video feeds. That's fine

02:41:07   it's like you don't need to be doing amazing things on it and

02:41:09   you know if it's otherwise being used largely as a computing platform like as

02:41:14   basically a glorified monitor for apps that you're run that you're working with or working in or running just glorified a

02:41:20   Better monitor in some ways because you have your whole field of view and not just like things can be anywhere not just on the rectangle

02:41:26   That is the monitor right exactly but like if that's you know

02:41:29   I was I was thinking earlier like when you look back over computing history

02:41:33   There's kind of this like base load of like the amount of computational power that we burn

02:41:38   Just to do things in a more modern way that are otherwise fairly simple like, you know type of document or something like, you know

02:41:44   when we had to move to like a

02:41:46   Compositing window management system like with Mac OS X or you know

02:41:50   whatever version whatever the hell version of Windows out of that the the system was burning more computational resources to do the basics and

02:41:57   Then our apps had to work above that and that that mattered for a little while when the hardware was super early

02:42:02   But then as hardware went on now, we don't even think about that, you know later on

02:42:06   We had things like web technology doing all the rendering for uis and that is from a computational perspective

02:42:12   Hilariously wasteful and inefficient but things got fast enough that we didn't really matter and it became more about you know

02:42:18   Other factors that made that compelling

02:42:20   Well when you think about the amount of computing power that the vision pro burns

02:42:27   just to show you like an app window in the room the amount of complexity and sophistication and

02:42:34   amazing feats of engineering

02:42:37   Required to show you like a spreadsheet in the middle of the room is kind of hilarious

02:42:41   Like I I was thinking about that earlier and just like laughing to myself in the middle of you know

02:42:46   The Apple visitor center no one else everyone thought I was a weirdo probably

02:42:49   Just thinking like the amount of computing power that we're just that works considering like pass say like oh, yeah

02:42:55   We're gonna have you know, 16 cameras and this whole m2 chip and this whole like all this this amazing

02:43:01   You know, this thing's probably drawing like 90 watts or something from from its cable having a cooling fan, but oh, yes

02:43:07   there's a fan and like doing all

02:43:10   All that to show, you know a couple of floating windows in your in your virtual room is kind of amusing and is so

02:43:16   Comically over the top, but if that's what people actually want to do with this. I mean, yes, there are gonna be amazing

02:43:23   Games and game like experiences that become possible and that's great

02:43:29   I am looking forward to you know

02:43:31   being able to you know

02:43:32   Go on a virtual retreat into somewhere warm when it's winter and freezing and crappy in real life

02:43:37   Like and you know when when everything's all dark because it got it is in the middle of the winter

02:43:41   It got dark at 3 30 p.m

02:43:42   I can just go go to a tropical paradise in my virtual headset, you know, that would that will be amazing

02:43:49   There will be all sorts of things like that

02:43:51   But it will also be compelling to just do regular boring old app work in this thing

02:43:55   You know once once everything gets good and mature enough to do that

02:43:57   It will be great to be sitting on a plane and to have a giant screen field of view that you can you can be

02:44:04   Doing you know other better nicer things in it will be great to you know to be

02:44:08   You know sitting in your living room in the middle of the winter and you know watching

02:44:11   You know watching a movie in the middle of a jungle or whatever. They didn't talk about fitness stuff

02:44:16   and there's probably lots of reasons for that one thing I

02:44:19   Instantly thought of is like well how sweaty is your face gonna be with this whole face gasket?

02:44:25   I mean it's fabric so it's better than being rubber

02:44:27   But breathability is always an issue and also I think bouncing up and down is gonna be an issue

02:44:31   Yeah, but yeah, but there are certainly I was thinking like my god if when I'm sitting on my water rower

02:44:35   Mm-hmm, by the way, there's there was a wonderful segment on cortex. This is a very brief diverse. I know we're short on time

02:44:40   Where we're gray was saying, you know

02:44:44   Don't even try a water rower

02:44:45   If you if you are if you ever use a gym rowing machine like they're like chain kind of rowing machine in a gym

02:44:50   I got a chance recently to use a chain rowing machine for the first time ever. I've only ever had a water rower

02:44:55   it was like

02:44:57   rowing a

02:44:58   Trash can lid across a field of gravel like it was such a terrible feeling compared to the water over. Oh my god

02:45:05   He like yeah, if you if you use the water rower you and you ever think maybe if you had a concept to know

02:45:11   Oh my god, they're awful. Anyway, sorry concept to people if you're listening

02:45:14   so anyway, the idea of like taking my wonderful water growing machine and

02:45:19   Virtually rowing across a wonderful lake in a you know, the a peaceful lake scene, you know with maybe some trainer head in the corner

02:45:27   Tell me what to do or something. That sounds amazing. I would love that

02:45:31   That sounds like so there are fitness experiences that I think could work with this

02:45:34   Without having too many weird practical problems

02:45:37   But anyway, and they'll be even better because the fans will be blowing a little breeze on your face

02:45:41   No, they'll be blowing hot air though. Unfortunately. Yeah. Well, it's it's a summer row. It's a summer

02:45:47   Arizona in the rainforest maybe it's very humid not

02:45:51   Anyway, so I can think of lots

02:45:54   So anyway, there's lots of use cases for this beyond just gaming and I think what we've seen honestly

02:46:00   What we've seen from the gaming VR headsets is the gaming VR is a fun novelty

02:46:05   It has not taken over the gaming world as much as everyone thought it would it has not

02:46:09   Produced as nearly as many good VR games as people would have assumed would exist by now

02:46:14   There are some that are fun. There are they're mostly they're mostly like, you know novelties or fads, honestly

02:46:22   So I think not having a strong gaming focus is both

02:46:27   You know

02:46:27   I think realistic in the sense that Apple is not great in the gaming world despite their best efforts and also gamers are not gonna be

02:46:33   Spending thirty five hundred dollars on this anytime soon

02:46:35   Well, I think they'd be the most likely to people to spend thirty five hundred dollars in the gaming

02:46:39   It's that because bonus headset because it's got such amazing specs if only they could play games with it

02:46:43   But they can't not the games they want to but you know

02:46:45   I think if if people start using this even if it's only really used at first by most people for

02:46:52   Capturing and watching 3d media. That's still a big enough use case to get it going

02:46:57   And then you can start doing some more some more of the apps. That's like yeah, maybe while you're capturing your 3d media

02:47:01   Hey, maybe you know you have your messages over in the corner and you start doing that or you start

02:47:04   you know messing messing around with whatever your

02:47:06   Productivity apps on your on your iPad are like there is a world where that makes a lot of sense

02:47:11   and I think they have positioned themselves very well to to start that and capture that and and

02:47:15   I do think it's gonna be very specialized and very, you know

02:47:19   kind of low adoption at first simply because first of all thing isn't even coming out for a long time and then when it does

02:47:24   Come out. It's gonna be fairly expensive and fairly limited. And so yes this but this is a start

02:47:29   This is not gonna replace people's computers anytime soon for most people. Well, what about replacing their monitors?

02:47:35   I feel like that is a more realistic goal is

02:47:37   But will it replace your monitor? I mean that's that's kind of it's not a shame

02:47:42   But it's like it's interesting that this is not just a display device

02:47:44   It's a it's an entire computer by itself, but you can use it to see your Mac screen like

02:47:49   You know, so they showed it being used with a keyboard and a mouse and stuff like that

02:47:54   but like the thing I'm most disappointed with in terms of their demos is

02:47:57   Apple didn't seem to have a any kind of point of view or story or a solution to the whole thing of like, okay

02:48:03   But what kind of apps can you make in the third dimension? They have frameworks for it

02:48:08   They showed the that satellite rotating in 3d, but that's nothing like that is like it's it's cute

02:48:13   But that doesn't that doesn't let me do that doesn't that's not a new kind of application that I couldn't use on a 2d screen

02:48:19   Show me yeah, and clearly it's possible to make applications that you couldn't do on a 2d screen

02:48:24   But kind of like the gaming thing you're saying show me the the killer app

02:48:28   Show me the one that everybody has to have show me the one that they say you can't do this on a laptop screen

02:48:33   You have to do it in the headset

02:48:34   And by the way when you do it in the headset

02:48:36   It is an experience that is better than trying to do the same thing anywhere else

02:48:40   Like we were saying before about like what can the iPad do better than the phone and the Mac?

02:48:43   What can the Mac do better than the you know? What can the headset do better?

02:48:46   Well, it can be a better display in certain ways because you have flexibility about where to put things and stuff like that

02:48:51   But what about the app experience it?

02:48:53   You know it has to be doesn't have to be but like I feel like it is possible to be more than just 2d

02:48:58   Planes showing traditional 2d applications on them with maybe one or two 3d things poking out, right?

02:49:04   That's not that's not adding anything and Apple didn't have an answer there

02:49:08   They didn't say and here's our killer app that can only exist on the headset

02:49:12   That goes far beyond just showing you an iPad app and a rectangle

02:49:16   It's floating in front of you first of all I think I think what they did demo is that I I

02:49:20   Guarantee you the killer app for this thing is 3d picture and video capture and being able to replay moments. That's the killer app

02:49:26   I'll call it right now. That's gonna get everyone to buy it

02:49:29   Well, I mean I mean I didn't I didn't mean killer app isn't the thing that's gonna make people want to buy it

02:49:33   I mean like I said the thing that takes advantage of 3d technology and more than just being a display right they they have frameworks

02:49:40   For it they showed it but they didn't have an application that they wrote that is essentially a 3d

02:49:44   Application as opposed to a bunch of 2d planes, and that's you know that to be clear

02:49:48   I think their concentration on 2d planes showing

02:49:51   video content and

02:49:53   Applications that was clearly their focus it seems much more focus in the watch

02:49:57   And I think that's a smart focus because those are all things with proven utility

02:50:01   And that's why I keep a framing this in my mind as hey, you know all that stuff that you already want to do

02:50:07   Imagine if you could have as many screens as you wanted wherever you wanted doing all that same stuff

02:50:12   That is compelling imagine you know and like you said watching media or even just the rowing thing that is that I feel like people

02:50:18   Probably writing in already to tell me that is actually an example the roaring experience of

02:50:23   Something that you can't do on a 2d screen because the 2d screen doesn't fill your field of view

02:50:27   Yeah, and when you're on the rowing machine you want to feel like you're on the lake

02:50:30   You don't want to feel like you're looking at a monitor showing a lake, right?

02:50:33   It's kind of the difference between when you ride a bike and it's got a screen in front of you showing a road

02:50:36   Versus putting on a headset where you feel like you're actually on the road

02:50:39   It's just that that is mostly just like a 360 video experience

02:50:43   It is not the 3d stuff like I'm thinking of this because I saw the state of the union where they're saying here's look you

02:50:48   Can have planes and volumes and in volumes you can have full 3d apps, but Apple doesn't have any full 3d apps

02:50:54   They have you know environments that you can be in and sort of 3d video experiences the 360 video experiences

02:50:59   And I think that will be amazing especially since by the way they they made a point of saying they don't have any hand controllers

02:51:04   So most of the traditional type of games are out because you need hand controller

02:51:09   They do support game controllers if you like

02:51:11   Like the independent ones where you like grab and I you know, you play like Alex you have right? No, no

02:51:17   I haven't well anyway, you know like yes, you can help to hold the ps5 controller or whatever

02:51:21   But not independent hands that you grab things with or whatever, right?

02:51:24   so the type of game experience you're gonna have are the ones that I feel like have a

02:51:29   broader appeal to non gamers which is they show that meditation thing or you're on a lake or you're walking through the mountains or even

02:51:36   If you're flying through the clouds or whatever

02:51:38   That is the that is the closest they came to having an experience

02:51:41   You can't have on a 2d screen because you will feel like you're there because it fills your field of view

02:51:45   But the 3d stuff is in 3d modeled objects in the world whether you're putting them on the desk in front of you or a completely

02:51:51   3d world

02:51:53   They don't have an answer for that

02:51:54   I don't think anybody has an answer for that but just to be clear Apple didn't have an answer for it either

02:51:58   They have frameworks for it and they're hoping someone will make an app like that that says wow

02:52:02   This is you know, that's why I kept saying the killer app in terms of 3d

02:52:05   But what they were showing is we already know you want to do these things

02:52:08   We already know you want to watch video you want to use your apps, right?

02:52:12   You want to you want to you know record video and you know see it in 3d

02:52:16   Which is the thing you can't do without weird glasses and stuff like that

02:52:18   So I think that they concentrated on the right things

02:52:21   But they also didn't have anything beyond what anyone else had had in terms of ideas for applications

02:52:27   Everything that they showed is something someone else was doing but in a worse way on the crappier hardware

02:52:32   No, I mean so I think what I mean

02:52:34   Honestly all the things that they did show I think that's enough to get this thing going and started that's that's plenty

02:52:39   and again, like I again I

02:52:41   Honestly think 3d capture and playback of video is its own killer app right there

02:52:47   But you know even even more pedestrian stuff like, you know, and they've had this support in AR kit for a while

02:52:53   But it's been you know limited to tiny phone and iPad screens

02:52:57   shopping and interior decoration of rooms like that

02:53:01   You know be if you're if you want to you know

02:53:03   buy something on the internet one of the hardest most challenging problems of online shopping is when you get something in your eyes that the

02:53:09   The size or scale of it is not quite what you expected to be able to just have that object show up

02:53:14   like in your room that that I think could be remarkable for as

02:53:19   pedestrian and common uses as online shopping or to have you know room redecoration or furniture arrangement apps where you can like

02:53:26   Oh, let's move this couch around or see what happens if we painted this wall blue that kind of stuff

02:53:30   That's killer apps for so many people and those are all things that you can do now with the phone or iPad

02:53:37   But it would be so much better doing it with this. So, you know, I think they've already shown us

02:53:44   Enough that is gonna make a lot of people want to buy this including me honestly and I was super skeptical before but now I'm super

02:53:51   Optimistic, of course one of the things they also stayed away from by the way

02:53:54   Oh, they kind of barely touched on this the whole the whole like feeling like you're all sitting around a meeting table with a bunch

02:54:00   Of people they stayed pretty far away from that

02:54:03   They said yeah

02:54:03   You can do FaceTime in it and we have a solution to the problem of people can't see your face

02:54:08   We'll make this little creepy avatar thing or whatever

02:54:10   But the closest they got was like oh and you can have a disembodied head

02:54:14   Yeah, disembodied head and shoulders, but they were not going into the whole, you know

02:54:18   The part of the reason they didn't say metaverse is they're actually not doing any of that stuff

02:54:22   Which is like was a through little 3d avatar of yourself and you feel like you're sitting at a table with everybody and you can see

02:54:26   Their expressions. Nope. It's it's FaceTime

02:54:29   It's disembodied heads with a little bit of a 3d effect on them. And if they're also in a headset, it's not really their face

02:54:35   It's a model of their face or whatever like, you know, I think all that's fine. That'll that'll come along but they stayed

02:54:41   You know that is definitely a touchy-feely Apple thing that he could have done

02:54:45   Oh the feeling of presence and you're there with your loved ones. They were like, yeah

02:54:48   No, like like they had to prove you can use this for work meetings

02:54:53   You can use this to FaceTime with your family. Not the ideal use case, right?

02:54:57   Like that's it's so much they spent so much more time showing people looking at like

02:55:01   Movies showing on a virtual screen in front of them than they spent showing the disembodied CG head of a scanned face

02:55:09   That you know, even in the in the idealized scenarios of this thing looked a little bit creepy, right?

02:55:14   So I feel like that is a weakness of this product. They tried to kind of hang a lantern on say we have a solution

02:55:20   That see don't worry about it

02:55:21   They'll still be able to see your face sort of kinda but that is not what Apple is pitching this on that

02:55:25   I mean if you want to see the pitch for that it's continuity camera for the Apple TV

02:55:29   Right whole family gather around on the couch put a camera that probably doesn't zoom in enough and has whatever like I I'm not entirely convinced

02:55:36   By the continuity camera thing but FaceTime with a bunch of people in your family

02:55:39   You're much more likely to prop up an iPad

02:55:41   Hold a phone or use continuity camera than you are to have you certainly not gonna have your entire family in

02:55:46   $3,500 headsets, but even just one person and even in a work meeting. It's a little bit iffy on that front, but you know this

02:55:52   This stakes out a different area of the headset space than I have seen anybody try to stake out even you know

02:55:59   So the game things forget it Apple's not anywhere near them

02:56:01   And then when Facebook did it Facebook's not a particularly big gaming company Oculus was a gaming headset

02:56:06   They tried to stake out this whole president's virtual meeting little Nintendo Miis walking around with no legs or whatever

02:56:12   Apple's like no legs. No body. No nothing. They got disembodied hands and a floating CG head, but that's not what this is about

02:56:19   Let me show you more of your apps floating around you and speaking of the apps by the way

02:56:24   They had out everyone's favorite person Marcos favorite UI designer Alan die up there talking about the UI for this

02:56:29   With the sort of translucent panes and everything and everything was okay to me except the question I had and I'm sure this would become

02:56:35   Clear if I actually used it

02:56:36   But it's hard to tell him the keynote is they had the whole thing of where you look at the button you want and then you

02:56:39   pinch your fingers to press it and the whole time I'm looking I'm like

02:56:42   Is it possible for me as a human to tell which item is just selected on his screen?

02:56:48   It's kind of like the old Apple TV where it's like they would like zoom it in a little bit over, you know

02:56:53   Yeah, they have like a hover effect on it

02:56:54   Yeah

02:56:55   When I pin they're doing an effect and they said when I pinch which thing that's on the screen is gonna activate right now and now

02:57:01   And I was like, can't you see it's a subtly different sheen on this button shows that it's the ones I'm like, oh, come on

02:57:06   Just highlight it like inverted make it white on black instead of black and white something

02:57:11   I want to be able to know what the selection state is Alan. Why won't you tell me?

02:57:14   I can't blame it disappears into the void. No, I'm sure there's gonna be like, you know one accessibility option to fix that

02:57:20   Yeah, we've got old eyes here. Like everything can't be translucent flush through the glass

02:57:24   I have to know which item has the focus so that when I pinch which thing you know

02:57:28   I again it's hard to tell from videos but that that's what I was looking out for that

02:57:31   I do like mostly what they did with it the frosted glass look and the little controls on the side and everything

02:57:35   It all looks cool. I do wonder

02:57:37   They didn't show any minority report kind of like reaching out with your hands and swiping things from side to side and everything like that

02:57:43   So it feels kind of like stage manager and how rigid it is in terms of where you can place things

02:57:47   But I think we have a ways to go with hand and finger tracking before we're gonna be Tom Cruise in our way through this UI

02:57:53   Yeah, and also I mean there's there's the huge question of text input, you know

02:57:57   It's so they're very very clear to say like, you know, you can connect the Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, which is great

02:58:03   There is a virtual keyboard that you can kind of poke at in the air. I'm curious how well that works in practice

02:58:10   I'm a little skeptical because it seems like it's a very difficult problem to get right better better use

02:58:14   You know speech to text at that point. Well, yeah, and of course there is dictation there is Siri, you know

02:58:21   there's there's you know stuff that that will allow input better, but

02:58:26   This is probably like I think if you're gonna be doing a lot of input you're gonna be sitting with the keyboard now that being

02:58:31   Said I mean imagine

02:58:32   Imagine that on an airline tray table

02:58:35   That's amazing

02:58:37   because that's like you can actually sit and coach and have the person in front you lean back like a jerk and you can just

02:58:42   Have the keyboard on the tray table and no screen to get in the way to get pinched by them by the seat. I

02:58:48   You hope you didn't touch type though because I was thinking about this in terms of the airline thing

02:58:52   They pointedly didn't really show someone watching a movie on an airplane

02:58:56   I felt like the only way you could do it is to turn that dial

02:58:59   So your full VR?

02:59:00   because if you try to do with AR the screen would have to be two rows in front of you or one row in front of

02:59:05   You and that would mess like how would that work with a out because like in you know in coach the back of the person

02:59:11   See it is like six inches from your nose

02:59:13   Right, and you don't want the screen to be six inches

02:59:16   so the virtual screen in the in the augmented reality has to be farther out and then how to

02:59:20   The the it can't make a convincing augmented reality. So you really got to turn that dial and make it so nope

02:59:25   I'm in the desert at night or wherever the hell that thing was which means if you have a keyboard in front of you

02:59:30   You better be able to touch touch type it without having to look at the keyboard because you can't look down and look at the keys

02:59:35   But you could bring your Bluetooth keyboard just sit on the tray table

02:59:39   That's what I'm saying

02:59:40   You can't you'll be able to type on your Bluetooth keyboard without looking at the keyboard

02:59:43   Because it's not an AR mode because you know

02:59:45   Or you could just have fun the screen will be out three feet in front of you and it will like it'll do some weird

02:59:49   Clipping thing, you know what? I mean?

02:59:50   like it's

02:59:51   someone's gonna try it to see how does it how does it square that circle because you

02:59:55   Want the screen to be a two feet away from you, but the seat is one foot away from you

02:59:59   So now the screen is behind the seat and so it truncates at the bottom earns the illusion. It'll probably be fine

03:00:04   And I there is there is just there's so much here like I'm well, you know one another thing

03:00:09   I mean obviously we're gonna cover this a lot in future episodes

03:00:11   You know

03:00:12   I think the the design of the UI and the interaction is interesting in the sense that they didn't do

03:00:18   Minority report style you have to like grab everything and have your arms up and out all the time

03:00:23   They also didn't really show much of that interaction. So we don't actually know how it works

03:00:27   I'm assuming it's a bunch of fixed positions. But how do you manipulate those fixed positions with your hands?

03:00:32   Well, but what's good is like is like, you know, it is based on eye tracking and you making a hand movement

03:00:37   But it doesn't really matter where your hands are as so they can be in your lap off to the side

03:00:42   You can be lying down kind of you can be slouching and that's not only is that great for lots of different accessibility?

03:00:47   Needs but also that's just great for not being super tiresome

03:00:51   And you know

03:00:52   you don't have to be waving your arms around in midair in front of you you can just be moving your eyes and tap them

03:00:56   With your finger and you can navigate the whole thing without hat without doing a whole shoulder workout in the process, which that's

03:01:03   Again, it's like the the the science the sci-fi vision of the product like this would be it would actually be probably pretty terrible in

03:01:11   Real life so they rather than do the sci-fi vision

03:01:14   They made the thing that's actually better in real life and I think that's kind of the theme of this whole product that we've seen

03:01:19   So far that when you if you if somebody tells you oh, we're gonna make AR glasses with the whole AR OS

03:01:25   What you picture is something very different and what you picture how it would work is very different. That's not what they did

03:01:31   They probably I'm sure they like thought of that or maybe maybe made some demo stuff and maybe saw it sucked and abandoned or whatever

03:01:37   but what they've shipped or what they're going to eventually ship here is

03:01:43   Seemingly something that is much better designed for

03:01:45   reality like that that this is their fun there

03:01:50   This is something that's actually going to be very useful in reality. No pun intended and and it's very it's it seems like a much more

03:01:57   Practical approach to solve some of these problems that being said, of course

03:02:00   you know

03:02:01   I use the term practical a little bit loosely there in terms of like they needed to throw an absurd amount of technology and engineering

03:02:06   To make these things work this way

03:02:09   and there's there's a large amount of cost and a large amount of you know wasted CPU power and stuff in the meantime to make

03:02:15   this all happen, but

03:02:17   This isn't something that we this isn't what we would have guessed. It isn't what we did guess

03:02:22   We we don't have to be theoretically we were guessing about this product for years

03:02:25   This is not what I expected it to be. This is not I think what anybody expected it to be

03:02:30   I mean, I think the rumors pretty much got the form, right?

03:02:32   It's just that it was hard for anyone to believe that they wouldn't talk about gaming and guess what they didn't talk about gaming

03:02:37   No, I'm saying I'm saying not obviously who cares what it looks like, you know, the goggles whatever fine

03:02:41   I'm just saying like the way it works the way it is such a strong focus on AR rather than being all about VR

03:02:48   I mean that was that was Tim's original thing that Apple was big into AR not VR

03:02:52   It's just in the recent years the rumors started to drift more towards VR because the idea that it was Apple was gonna

03:02:58   Ship something that was a headset that blocked your vision entirely

03:03:00   So people said it had to be more VR

03:03:02   But the original origin of the headset rumors was Apple wants to do AR they're going to augment reality and it just kind of

03:03:08   Shifted over time as eight people gave up on the pipe dream of the glass and said well

03:03:12   I guess we'll just

03:03:13   Ship a headset that totally blocks your vision right and then that's where all the VR rumors came from

03:03:17   That's where the gaming angle started coming in

03:03:19   But no the original the original rumors of this headset is that Apple is super into AR and that's that's what they're that's why they

03:03:26   Presented as a product that is heavily focused on AR

03:03:28   But even that if you if you ask people like what if Apple's gonna make an AR focused headset

03:03:34   What kind of features will it have when people think of AR they think of you walking down the street and having a little?

03:03:39   Bubble pop up over the store saying oh, this is rated five stars. Maybe pop over people

03:03:43   Oh, this is you know Emily Smith like that's that's what they're thinking when you say AR

03:03:48   No one thinks about I just want to be sitting in my sitting on my couch working on it on a word document and

03:03:53   Be able to see if my if my spouse walks by like that's the that's what they actually should

03:03:57   People thought about that

03:03:58   I don't know if you aren't reading those articles a lot of this whole idea of having a bunch of virtual screens in front of

03:04:02   You as augmented reality was definitely in in the mix right, but that's that's that's the part that Apple concentrated on

03:04:07   speaking of eye tracking though by the way with

03:04:10   Having they made a big point of like the privacy angle on this which I think they skimmed over it too fast

03:04:16   But I think what they were getting at was essentially hey if you're looking at Safari and in your you know your goggles

03:04:23   Right that they won't pass where your eyes are lingering as like cursor events. Yes

03:04:29   It's kind of the equivalent if you're on your Mac if you're on your Mac and imagine if your mouse pointer moved

03:04:33   everywhere your eyes went where your mouse pointer moves can be captured by most web apps or whatever or

03:04:39   Actually, I don't know what the state of the art in security is but in theory it could be captured right

03:04:43   but where your eyes move is not captured by any web browser because

03:04:47   computers don't detect it right and

03:04:49   That is deemed more privacy related because they do like ever see this but they test like a website with like a bunch of people

03:04:55   Do some usability testing that's where they track their eyes and they say oh people's eyes are hovering around here, right?

03:04:59   But that doesn't happen when you use your phone when you use your iPad when you use your Mac

03:05:03   But with a headset something is tracking where your eyes are all the time and Apple made it a point to say

03:05:08   We're not going to pass that information on to Facebook calm or whatever

03:05:13   Which you know, it's their privacy angle

03:05:15   It's the picture, you know, they're that biometric data that you don't expect to be passed on to these things

03:05:19   We won't pass it on they'll only get the thing when you click with your fingers or whatever

03:05:23   I think that's also applied to apps though, which is interesting like I well, so here's the thing

03:05:27   You can like gaming and the headset one of the best

03:05:31   Gaming experiences that people come up with is things where you aim with your eyeballs feels awesome, right?

03:05:36   And this eye tracking I'm sure is amazing compared to like the eye tracking and a $300 headset

03:05:41   So those things where you look at something and shoot it by, you know, pressing a button on the controller

03:05:45   You kind of have to pass the eye position to the game to do that

03:05:49   So I think what they were saying is yeah, we won't pass it to the the site using with the web browser

03:05:55   But of course if you make a VR game

03:05:57   They have to pass the eye position onto the game because that's half of how you control

03:06:01   One of the most amazing things about controlling games in VR is they can track your eye position

03:06:06   So they didn't make that clear in the keynote

03:06:07   But I will be shocked if you can't make a game for this thing that tracks your eye movement because that's because duh

03:06:13   But yeah, I guess I guess we'll find out what Apple's dedication to gaming really is if they say nope

03:06:17   Even if you're a game, you can't have a position. They're really truly closing the door on this thing as a gaming device

03:06:22   I mean

03:06:22   I think the mechanic will probably be I bet there will be a mode for that that you just have to pass a privacy prompt to

03:06:27   approve, you know, like if you look at like I think one of the things they breezed over in the State of the Union was

03:06:33   That when you're viewing like for apps that are that are reading like AR positioning information to figure out like where to put their volumes

03:06:40   And stuff like that

03:06:41   They're not getting a camera feed of your room because presumably that would require some kind of camera permission

03:06:46   So like even though the headset is constantly capturing the video of the room around you to show you in your in your eyepieces

03:06:53   The apps are not going to get visual data. So they're not going to see that, you know, you're not wearing pants

03:07:00   They're gonna see there's just like some leg-shaped logs there. Well, it's about how detailed the depth the depth data may be

03:07:07   Oh god

03:07:08   Yeah, maybe that's a bad example. But you know, like they're not gonna see like oh you have you have blue walls in this room

03:07:12   They're gonna see there's a wall there. Yeah, like they they get like geometry of the room but not images of the room

03:07:19   Speaking of the geometry, by the way, they really focus on that in the spatial audio

03:07:23   Did you see that bit where they're like?

03:07:24   We'll do spatial audio based on where your coffee table is and stuff and it made me think

03:07:28   The same thing I always think when I see this stuff is like there is it there is a application of that

03:07:32   That is ideal and I think it's kind of like when you're doing like the virtual FaceTime with somebody or something

03:07:37   You want them to feel like they're in front of you and when they talk their sound bounces off your coffee table

03:07:41   And it will be give that convincing illusion that they're not just a disembodied floating head in your field of vision

03:07:46   But they're actually a real floating head in your living room

03:07:48   And when they talk about your ceiling and your walls and that's how it should work

03:07:52   But I continue to say that when I watch a movie

03:07:55   I don't actually want the sound to bounce off my coffee table

03:07:58   I want it to be perfect as it was mastered by the person who made this movie put it right into my ears

03:08:03   Don't bounce it around my room

03:08:05   I spend all this time trying to get an arrangement of speakers and everything to have to eliminate bouncing around a room effects

03:08:11   so like

03:08:13   It's great technology. It has its place

03:08:15   Another example is if I'm playing it, I know a game again if I'm playing a game

03:08:20   I want to hear where the enemy is in the game. My coffee table is not in the game

03:08:22   Don't bounce sound off of it, right? But what they seem to want to make it sound like is imagine if you had a TV

03:08:27   Floating in front of your coffee table if the sound was coming out of that TV

03:08:31   It would hit your coffee table and bounce to yours. Isn't that what you want? I would say no

03:08:34   It's not what I want. I know, you know, this is different to me and and the imagined audience is spatial audio

03:08:40   I I don't I don't want the sound to sound like it's coming from my iPad when I'm watching TV on my iPad

03:08:45   I wanted to sound like it's coming out of the headphones that are in my ear

03:08:48   So I'm glad I can turn it off but they have the technology and it's using the same thing that depth

03:08:52   Picture of where you are which presumably is sophisticated because they have lidar on this thing

03:08:56   I think they have IR spayer things and everything

03:08:59   so it's it's got an idea of the shape of your room and applications will be able to sense that but

03:09:04   they don't get to see the video of it and

03:09:06   They just you know, one of the uses of it is to figure out how to bounce sound around it

03:09:10   Marco are you gonna make the bouncing around the room joke or do I have to feel free?

03:09:14   No, I I I

03:09:17   Just keep coming back to

03:09:20   What Marco said a few minutes ago and

03:09:22   when I

03:09:24   Got to the one more thing in the keynote, you know

03:09:27   I think we all kind of knew what to expect

03:09:29   but I don't think I received what I expected and I think it's actually far better and I

03:09:35   Keep thinking to myself

03:09:38   That right now. I'm really if you can't tell hung up on the social like

03:09:42   About all of this but leaving that aside for a moment, you know, I really enjoy going

03:09:49   Places to work, you know once or twice a week. I enjoy going to my beloved. Don't call it a park bench

03:09:54   I didn't think about this you do leave your house to work a lot. Don't you? Mm-hmm

03:09:58   I do like going to the library and if I just do not care about what other people think of me

03:10:04   Which I wish was true in so many parts of my life

03:10:06   But anyway, if I just don't care about what other people think of me and I'm willing to strap this thing to my face

03:10:11   I could see this being an incredibly cool way to get work done somewhere else, but but

03:10:19   Then I got thinking to myself. Well, what work could I really do on this thing as a standalone device and

03:10:25   What I feel like having not used it and having and knowing almost nothing about it my knowledge being only a few few hours old

03:10:32   It feels like if you're the kind of person that can legitimately get things get work done on your iPad today. I

03:10:41   Feel like you should be able to do the same here now

03:10:45   Maybe you might want a physical keyboard because maybe you don't want to mash on a virtual keyboard or you don't want to use the dictation

03:10:50   What have you but just in terms of the apps that are available?

03:10:53   The the way the device works it appears to me like if you can do honest-to-goodness work on your iPad

03:11:00   you can probably do honest-to-goodness work with the vision Pro and

03:11:04   That's appealing but I don't think that's me most of the time because my work most of the time

03:11:11   Really has to be done on a traditional computer

03:11:15   and I do think it would be nice to have a

03:11:18   Very large 4k display wherever I wanted, you know, wherever I am. I think that would be pretty neat

03:11:23   So even if I have to bring my computer

03:11:25   It would be neat to have the big display or in potentially even more than one and turn your head to look at each one

03:11:31   Well, I don't know if I can I don't think you could have more than one computer

03:11:34   That's right. I said one for the Mac. Yes, just at least for version one

03:11:37   It was just one display, but that doesn't mean I remember I'm a big spaces person

03:11:42   And this is kind of like spaces on steroids. And so maybe what I could do is I could have

03:11:46   Xcode full screen or what have you on the virtual 4k screen, but I could have messages as running natively on

03:11:55   The vision Pro adjacent to that and I can have slack adjacent to that

03:12:00   You know what I mean?

03:12:00   And I can have Safari all all the other things running natively on the vision Pro on you know strewn about this virtual

03:12:08   Workspace and that would be pretty freaking cool and speaking of Xcode and things like that

03:12:14   They do seem to be taking very seriously the simulator

03:12:17   They seem to be making it as reasonable as they can given that the technology on a traditional computer is so different

03:12:24   but one thing they showed in the State of the Union was

03:12:26   What if you wanted to develop a vision Pro, you know XR OS app and they did they did make mention of XR OS

03:12:34   Here at least it was visually shown in the Xcode screenshots. It was like honest. It was like in somebody's toolbar, right?

03:12:39   Yeah, which I thought was funny, but nevertheless

03:12:41   What if you wanted to write an app for this thing? Well, what you could do is you could have your virtual

03:12:48   monitor for your computer and they showed it off to the right and then you can have your app off to the left and

03:12:55   Yes, of course, you can do that but seeing that

03:12:59   my mind just freaking exploded like how

03:13:03   Amazingly cool is that and that is a future that I think is very very interesting

03:13:10   I think Marco's right that I think the killer app for this

03:13:14   I'm not so sure that it's 3d specifically, but I think it's just the consumption of media just like the iPad

03:13:19   The killer app the iPad is being able to consume things wherever you want

03:13:23   And I think the killer app for this might be you know having a full surround sound setup

03:13:28   Asterisk with a humongous screen of high fidelity, you know dagger

03:13:33   it

03:13:34   What appears to be those things and you can have it anywhere and then what could really make it interesting is if you can

03:13:42   Get work done on it

03:13:43   And again, I think if you can get work done on an iPad and that's not me

03:13:46   but it may be you if you can get work done on an iPad about you could get work done on this and if you

03:13:50   Had 17 iPads in like a grandma's boy style array in front of you

03:13:55   I bet you could probably get more work done, you know, and so that makes this very interesting to me. I

03:14:03   As an engineer and I think we should talk about price here as an engineer

03:14:06   I totally understand how we landed it starts at thirty five hundred dollars makes perfect sense

03:14:10   Absolutely reasonable as a consumer, you know

03:14:14   I feel like I need to paste in the Goodfellas gift with what's-his-nuts laughing already everyone laughing at the restaurant, you know

03:14:21   you know the gift I'm thinking of like that is just an

03:14:24   Ass-night amount of money that being said I'm really thinking about it because this thing looks so freaking cool

03:14:31   And we're presumably gonna learn a lot more about it over the next six months

03:14:35   We're presumably going to see people demoing even in 2d space

03:14:39   We're gonna see them demoing apps for it and you know recording videos of you know

03:14:43   The Xcode simulator and the vision pro simulator and so on and so forth. I honestly don't know what I'll do because

03:14:50   $3,500 is a lot of money to say. Oh, why not?

03:14:53   But it does seem very interesting and although I haven't had time to read

03:15:00   Posts about their for people's first-hand experience. I see that

03:15:04   That chance Miller has a post-op which will link in the show notes our friend Matthew pansarino has a post-op

03:15:10   We've had some other people report into the three of us that they have tried it and it is amazing

03:15:14   So I am really interested. I don't know if I'm gonna do it

03:15:19   I'm not I don't know if I'm gonna spend thirty five hundred dollars on this but you will I'm

03:15:23   I'm not definitely not shut the door on it. You're you're a dad and you're sentimental about your kids

03:15:28   You're gonna want to capture trust me. That's gonna be that's what's gonna drive. So many early sales of this is

03:15:34   Computer dads with money who want to capture their kids

03:15:36   Excuse they'll use anyway, yes

03:15:40   That's that is going to be a massive

03:15:42   Excuse for people to you to get this thing and that's gonna be a huge killer app. I guarantee it

03:15:47   I have a question about the hardware though that I don't think I've seen yesterday

03:15:51   So they mentioned the battery life made a joke about it up up to two hours

03:15:55   With the external battery pack connected and unlimited time if it's plugged in yet. We know it's a limited until the power goes out anyway

03:16:02   with two things in that one

03:16:05   That battery pack doesn't look too big couldn't have doubled the size and give it four hours

03:16:08   I mean, it's it's right, you know, it's not on the headset. It might pull your pants down it

03:16:12   It's not very big, but it's probably very dense. Yeah, it's hard to tell what would the deal with that?

03:16:17   And the second my second question is though

03:16:18   it seemed like it was connected with a kind of a mag safety type of thing, but

03:16:22   If that gets disconnected the thing shuts off right like there's no battery

03:16:27   headset I actually asked about that because I was saying like, you know, is there some kind of like, you know temporary

03:16:32   You know hot swap time you could you know, you could swap it on and the answer is no it shuts down like when you

03:16:37   So that seems a little weird like it makes sense

03:16:41   I mean again, you want the batteries out of the heads that you don't want to be heavy

03:16:43   It's the whole reason to have a thing like that's I totally that design decision makes sense

03:16:46   But then the the decision to also make it kind of mag safety

03:16:49   I mean that also makes sense is you don't want that the cord to snag on something but also

03:16:54   It's like yanking the power cable if you're out from your desktop Mac. It's kind of I mean, all right

03:17:00   I just really give that that file system a workout I guess just

03:17:04   Yeah, it might have been in the middle of doing something

03:17:07   But whoops the cat pulled the cord out and that's the end of what you're doing right now

03:17:11   And of course, I'm pretty well, I don't know we'll find out like it has to default total blackness, right?

03:17:16   Like that's if they if the cord comes off

03:17:19   All you see is black, right?

03:17:22   block it's like blocking light and there's no other even small on-board battery to light up the

03:17:28   Anyway, well, we'll try it but this definitely seems like a kind of you won't get this reference

03:17:33   But you know, yeah, Genesis Evangelion type of thing

03:17:36   They have these giant mechs in them that in the beginning

03:17:39   they

03:17:40   They are connected to a tether and then as soon as you disconnect them to the tether a timer starts going down when that timer

03:17:45   Goes down there out of power and the timer is like three and a half minutes long

03:17:48   So it's a it's kind of like a ticking clock for the battle as the battery drains

03:17:52   Same thing with this only the second that cable just gets disconnected. It's game over and you're in total darkness

03:17:56   Yeah, I was kind of I was assuming and kind of hoping that there would be some kind of little grace period to swap the

03:18:02   Battery, but yeah, who knows? I mean when you think about like the amount of power this is, you know

03:18:07   Look at look at the processors, you know

03:18:09   It's right

03:18:09   It's running the full-blown m2 a whole separate processor called the r1 that I don't we I don't think we know yet like how big

03:18:15   Or a power hungry of a processor that is but it's probably not small the rumors were it's like a second m2 basically

03:18:20   Yeah, exactly. So if you think about it, like this is you know, it's powered by what appears to be, you know

03:18:25   modified USB power delivery

03:18:27   So it's probably gonna have like a roughly hundred watt max

03:18:30   I'm guessing this is probably somewhere near a hundred watt device like I mean in terms of power draw

03:18:36   That sounds high to me. I'll be shocked if it's that high but maybe well, maybe it's old quote only 50 watts

03:18:42   That's still that's still a lot of power to be battery powered continuously

03:18:46   so I'm guessing this is this is probably like

03:18:49   They just can't do certain like they can't make it be you know

03:18:54   That long powered by whatever like I don't know giant capacitor or whatever it would be

03:18:57   They probably can't make it one of the thing one of the things that that headset makers have done

03:19:02   To put battery on it to not be too heavy or crappy is they stick it on the back of your head?

03:19:09   Like where that big giant thing is if you can imagine Apple could have put a smaller

03:19:14   five minute battery pack

03:19:17   Strap there because it balances out the weight of the headset on the front and it gives you enough power

03:19:22   Like you said like the grace period right or something to turn on transparency on the headset

03:19:26   Just put up an image that says the cable has been disconnected, you know and to pause everything but they didn't do that

03:19:31   It would have added cost it would have added complexity

03:19:33   It would have added danger because you don't want any batteries that you catch fire next to people's heads

03:19:37   Although having them in their pocket isn't great either

03:19:39   So, you know, this is definitely kind of a version one. It's got that prototype you kind of feel

03:19:44   But yeah, not having a battery at all in it is I mean again

03:19:49   I would have

03:19:50   Because you gotta run the wires and everything

03:19:52   It'll be interesting to see if they revisit that because you don't need that big of a battery to give you a little grace period

03:19:56   And to give you a little transparency or whatever. Although that's another thing. I feel like Apple

03:20:00   Was pretty careful not to show too much of which is people running around with this thing, right?

03:20:07   It's not like everyone was always sitting down

03:20:09   the dad was by like the island in the kitchen or whatever and presumably he's walking around the house, but

03:20:14   not even no games where you're running around or you know, like

03:20:19   There's lots of because it is self-contained like you're not tethered to a PC

03:20:24   So you could in theory move around with some transparency on so you can avoid your furniture

03:20:27   But they were not really into showing that again

03:20:30   Most of the things that were showing with someone sitting at a desk or on a couch and then one guy standing at a counter

03:20:35   so that's that's how Apple is thinking of this right now, and I think the

03:20:38   The battery the tethered battery. I mean they kept showing it in people's pocket

03:20:43   But if you're sitting down, would you put it on the desk, right?

03:20:46   And in that case will they sell a bigger battery pack or would you just plug it in when you're at your desk?

03:20:50   It's those use cases are a little bit confusing. Yeah, the battery has a USB hole on it

03:20:55   So I'm guessing like that is like I'm guessing you can just do like pass-through charging or continuous power that way

03:21:00   Well, but they also in the state of the Union

03:21:03   They also showed I tried posting this to massed on but kept failing and I don't know maybe it's user error, but they showed

03:21:07   What looked to be a dongle so there's like?

03:21:12   Coming off of the spot where the thing plugs in there's something that looks like a dongle and then what looks like a USB

03:21:19   Port on it. I don't know it was

03:21:22   Very unusual and I definitely caught a screen capture of it now put a link in the show notes of what I captured

03:21:29   But and I just put it in the chat room. There's definitely something going on there. Not a bad way

03:21:33   Just you know, there's some sort of dongle looking thing happening

03:21:36   You're not gonna watch a movie as long as it's less than two hours, I guess

03:21:39   Well, I think you know on the plane, I think you'd probably like, you know plug in to power or something

03:21:45   You know, I don't know

03:21:46   I mean, it's also worth pointing out to like, you know people in the chatter speculator

03:21:49   Maybe maybe they're hitting the FAA, you know 100 watt hour limit with the battery

03:21:53   I don't think it's that big so they had the battery

03:21:56   They had it like out in like the hands-off area where you could like walk around

03:22:00   Steve Jobs theater and like kind of look at it, but you couldn't touch it

03:22:03   They had the batteries lying right there next to them, which is great

03:22:06   Like I'm actually very happy that they didn't just pretend like these things have no wires

03:22:09   Like they in their cool fancy demo of having these things look take a picture

03:22:14   They had the batteries right there connected to them like resting on the table. So that's nice, but

03:22:17   First of all, a hundred watt hour battery is heavy especially for a pocket

03:22:22   So I don't think they would do quite that high just for pocket, you know, weight reasons

03:22:26   But I would say, you know just eyeballing it size wise

03:22:30   It looks kind of like a 20,000 milliamp milliamp hour battery pack and plus you can have multiples

03:22:35   even if it was a hundred you could just get more than one of those batteries in the plane and just

03:22:38   You know, I guess your movie would be the whole OS shuts down gonna yank the power cord

03:22:43   But it would remember your playback position probably maybe like, you know

03:22:46   Somebody somebody does the math like whatever a 20,000 milliamp hour battery would power for you know for two hours

03:22:51   That's probably the rough power draw this thing

03:22:53   So, I don't know what that is. Maybe 30 or 40 50 watts something like that up to two hours

03:22:57   Which may when they say up to it makes me think like you think you would think video playback would be a low stress

03:23:01   Application like there's you know, just one thing the decode is done in hardware

03:23:06   It's projecting it on a single rectangle in front of you. No, but there's a you know, that's what I was talking about earlier

03:23:11   It's like, you know

03:23:12   the baseline level of computation required to just show a still screen in this thing like to also show your entire

03:23:18   Surroundings to be scanning your eyes

03:23:21   So much going on it's not like playing a 3d game or even like, you know crunching numbers and in some set of you know

03:23:28   3d game the whole damn thing is a 3d game. I know but like it doesn't have a lot of

03:23:32   There's not a lot of polygons and shaders in that scene with a single rectangle in front of you is what I'm saying

03:23:38   You know what? I mean as opposed to you know, playing an actual 3d game with you know, millions of polygons

03:23:43   You're running through a forest or whatever

03:23:45   and even stuff like oh

03:23:46   I want to run I have an iPad app for stable diffusion and I want to run part of it on device

03:23:52   It's the stable diffusion that runs on device up to three hours

03:23:55   So you have whatever the lightest weight

03:23:58   Application of this you can think of and I suppose I think maybe video playback is the lightest way because it probably web browsing is more

03:24:04   You know, right? That's where you get up to two hours, right? So

03:24:08   replaceable battery and again

03:24:10   That's why the good the battery pack is place where pistol battery packs is great third pottery battery packs based on the picture that you posted

03:24:15   Casey it seems like they would be possible in which case just open the floodgates to gigantic USB batteries

03:24:19   And we probably all have a bunch of them already, right? Maybe a

03:24:22   Whole battery backpack it weighs like 30 pounds

03:24:26   If it gets up to two hours out of this little thing, yeah

03:24:30   You know, my wife has a monstrous battery pack that she uses Pokemon go they will power her phone for days

03:24:36   That would probably give you 20 hours of video playback on this thing. So

03:24:41   Third party opportunity but again makes makes me wonder why they gave such a small battery pack for this because they know the battery life

03:24:47   Is terrible, I guess they wanted it to fit in everybody's pocket assuming people have pockets on their clothes, but just not universally true

03:24:52   but maybe maybe Apple's gonna change that you got to buy your your

03:24:56   AR goggles pants with a pocket for the battery

03:24:59   All right, we really got to wrap this up but a couple of other quick notes from the State of the Union

03:25:03   First of all, they said that they and I'm something like they're they will offer

03:25:09   for developers to ask for Apple to run their apps on a

03:25:15   Real device and give them feedback which I thought was interesting

03:25:18   They also said they're going to have I don't know if they call them labs but like workshops or whatever in

03:25:23   Not only Cupertino but like I think it was six other locations around the world where you can apply to go and get FaceTime

03:25:30   With the device and in in try your app, you know on the actual vision Pro hardware, which I thought was pretty neat

03:25:37   It's only in the US and sometime early next year. So again, we are six months out at the earliest

03:25:43   But I don't know this thing looks really cool. It is it is it is impressive

03:25:48   I thought it was gonna be a full VR thing and that just doesn't really read my engine that much but it seems to be

03:25:53   Very different than that and I am definitely interested to try it. I think there's pretty good chance. I'm probably gonna end up buying one

03:26:00   Sounds like Marco you're definitely gonna capture video of your kids. I'm telling you that's that's it

03:26:06   And speaking of the finger the air versus full VR

03:26:08   They didn't note that a lot of the things they were showing in the 3d is good enough to fool you

03:26:12   It was actually full VR

03:26:14   But the VR scene was of a desk like in a in a in a nice office

03:26:19   You know what?

03:26:20   I mean like so what you were seeing every single pixel of it was was you know virtual like it's nothing

03:26:25   It's not transparency at all

03:26:26   But they had a bunch of like that a conference room one and a desk and so if you want to feel like you're in one

03:26:31   Of these scenes probably half of these scenes were actually virtual

03:26:34   You know Apple style exposed brick wall light wood

03:26:38   furniture type of scenario and

03:26:41   In that scenario, yeah, you're using a bunch of floating images as screens

03:26:45   but you'd also don't have to worry about the fact that like your room is a mess or your or your

03:26:49   Your office is actually much smaller than the one they're showing in this video

03:26:53   And I feel like that's another advantage of to your point of case

03:26:56   It's like I was thinking of ER, but when you're thinking of ER, you're like, oh, I'm in outer space or I'm in a forest

03:27:00   Or whatever. It's like no you just did a nicer desk in a bigger office

03:27:03   (laughter)

03:27:05   So John are you are you feeling like you're in for one of these I know you have a Mac Pro to buy so probably not

03:27:10   I am saving a lot of money not getting that Mac Pro. Let me tell you I definitely would like to try this

03:27:15   I still am very skeptical of my ability to get any utility out of it

03:27:20   Do motion sickness and also I have a 6k screen here and this is not gonna be bigger than that

03:27:25   But here's here's the killer app for me personally. I think could possibly be

03:27:31   Doing what I do already which is watch television on my iPad and bed next to my wife

03:27:35   Only with less light leakage and and a better display honestly right better display than than my current like not

03:27:42   non OLED

03:27:44   iPad that I use yeah

03:27:46   Also Casey, of course, you're gonna get this because call sheet is gonna have to have a widget next to the thing when people watch

03:27:52   Yeah, I've thought about this a lot already. Actually. I really honestly have I've been kind of shocked that Apple didn't show that

03:27:59   It's like people sound like the version of Amazon x-ray. I don't know why everyone hasn't copied Amazon x-ray, please Apple copy this

03:28:04   It's like the killer feature of all streaming apps

03:28:06   Just do it better than Amazon does it which people don't know when you're watching something if you tap the the play the player in

03:28:12   Amazon video thing it shows you the names and faces of everybody who's on the screen right now

03:28:17   And if you tap on them call sheet style say here's what they're from. Here's what they've been in

03:28:20   Perfect. Yeah, they are. Yeah, totally very much so

03:28:24   Now this was this was all told now we are considering, you know, the vision Pro headset

03:28:31   I thought it was a very impressive

03:28:32   WVDC I am I have been sad for a long time since I figure since I figured out about a week ago

03:28:38   I wasn't gonna be able to be there

03:28:39   I am even more sad now that I'm seeing all my friends together and I'm seeing you know people trying the

03:28:45   Headset, I'm super sad, but you know, there's always next year

03:28:49   but this was this was a really strong WWDC a very very strong one and I am very impressed and

03:28:55   I can't wait to talk more about it. But hey, if you're interested in helping us buy these ridiculous

03:29:02   Computers for dads with money or whatever Marco said earlier ATP not FM slash join

03:29:07   You can try it, you know, maybe send a few dollars our way. It would help us buy this thing that we don't need

03:29:12   But we have to talk about it for our jobs

03:29:17   All right, thank you very much for listening everybody

03:29:19   Thanks to our sponsors

03:29:21   Squarespace collide and vector bar and thank you as Casey was just saying to our members who support us directly

03:29:27   You can join us at ATP that FM slash join. We so appreciate our members

03:29:31   Thank you so so much and we will talk to you next week

03:29:36   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

03:29:47   Oh it was accidental

03:29:49   John did any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

03:29:56   It was accidental

03:29:59   And you can find the show notes at ATP

03:30:04   FM and if you're into Twitter

03:30:08   You can follow them at

03:30:11   Cas ey l is s so that's Casey lists and a RC o a RM

03:30:19   Auntie Marco are men. Si are

03:30:23   AC

03:30:25   USA, Syracuse

03:30:39   So you wanna hear about the food I do actually yes

03:30:43   Very briefly, there's not that much to say so

03:30:48   So I had I had the press badges here

03:30:51   The press had like a little like tier like a little like terrace

03:30:54   Overlooking cafe max where like they have like a little snacks before it starts. So you're literally above the heathens below you. Yes

03:31:01   It's not that bad but I mean technically you are correct

03:31:07   Anyway

03:31:09   Anyway, and it's it is very much like a super fancified version of

03:31:16   Box lunch kind of things almost but like way better

03:31:20   So they had it they had set up like kind of this giant like, you know

03:31:24   Cold bar of just little kind of like little like, you know appetizer sigh early not even appetizer

03:31:29   Like almost like, you know cocktail party walk around kind of you know, hors d'oeuvres

03:31:34   that size little cups of you know a bean salad or like little tiny slider made of mushroom or like little tiny turkey sandwich

03:31:43   cubes like that kind of stuff and

03:31:45   It's all really good and they even had to have like a chia pudding like the fancy stuff

03:31:50   Like it's exactly what you'd expect from like apples high production value for this thing

03:31:56   I thought was funny speaking of production values, too

03:31:58   You know last year they had the issue where it was very it was kind of sunnier than expected last year and a lot of

03:32:04   People got sunburned because most of the developer seating was not shaded

03:32:08   Press was like kind of under the Apple canopy of the ring building

03:32:12   So press mostly was in the shade most developers last year were in that were in direct Sun

03:32:16   Now Apple thought of this they gave you in the little in the little like, you know swag bags

03:32:20   They give everybody they gave you a little bottle of sunscreen last year and it was good sunscreen, too

03:32:25   So this year they decided rather than just give everybody sunscreen again. We're gonna build this entire

03:32:30   What might be a temporary like structure where it was in the same location last year like starting from within cafe max

03:32:37   Going out through those giant open doors, you know into like the kind of the field next to the building same location

03:32:43   But this time they built this tremendous

03:32:45   They basically built a concert venue that knowing Apple. I wouldn't be surprised if it's gone by tomorrow

03:32:53   If it's just like somehow they will throw enough money at this problem that not only will it be totally gone

03:32:58   But the grass will be like in perfect condition as if it was never even there

03:33:02   Like I'm I'm sure that's what's going on tonight as we sleep

03:33:04   anyway

03:33:07   Yeah, the food their food is really good and like in the visitor center

03:33:11   I went they had like all these like juices and everything and then afterwards I went over to the visitor center to hang out like

03:33:16   download the betas and buy some t-shirts and stuff like that and

03:33:19   And watch and that's where I watched the State of the Union and they were just giving out like, you know free like

03:33:24   You know coffees and even more of those kind of little like hors d'oeuvre sized sandwiches and bean bowls and stuff like that

03:33:30   Cookies bags of chips. It was delightful. So this is way way better than conference food

03:33:37   And and yeah just standard it standard Apple visitor center fair, but that's that's a very high bar

03:33:44   Relative to anything else you get at a conference so thumbs up on the food and even the coffee was pretty good

03:33:50   And then you know for me, that's that's that's quite a statement

03:33:53   So yeah, I'm overall very impressed by it by apples food and drink options at the conference

03:33:58   I can't wait to try it next year Apple

03:34:01   [beeping]

03:34:03   Thank you, everyone.