541: Make a Little Maze


00:00:00   We have some news for those of you who are members, our beloved members. If you're not a member, you can go to ATP.fm/join.

00:00:07   We have released another member special. I would call this monthly, but we're not terribly good about being consistent about that.

00:00:13   But our roughly monthly member special are sometimes member specials, that we do accidentally. Ding!

00:00:20   Anyway, so we did a tier list and we discussed this on the episode. But John, would you give us a brief overview of what a tier list is and what it is that we were ranking?

00:00:30   We were supposed to have links in the show notes to explain what that is, and now we do. So good news. Of course, you only see the show notes if you're a member.

00:00:35   But anyway, it's a tier list in the style of from a video game culture that is spread elsewhere. You put things into different ranks, usually with like letter grades, where A, B, C, D, E, or A, B, C, D, F.

00:00:47   Sometimes you have E.

00:00:49   Yeah, that's where. Oh, God, let me tell you, by the way, for whatever, it's just a little side note here. You know, so my kids in school and we get the, you know, the elementary school report cards and

00:00:59   have you seen a recent elementary school report card and do the grades make any sense to you?

00:01:04   Well, I think Declan's on letters now, but I believe in kindergarten and first grade it was like one through four or something like that. It was very unusual.

00:01:12   So our report card, first of all, it's in trimesters, not semesters or quarters, because why be, you know, normal. So we have these three columns and within this, not only like on the same side, but even like within the same section of it,

00:01:26   they alternate, they seemingly switch between like a letter system that is not A, B, C, D, F.

00:01:32   They even use like C is one of the letters used, but it's good.

00:01:37   It's not like, so it's very confusing.

00:01:40   And then within the same section, they'll use numbers for certain things.

00:01:43   But it's not even one, two, three. It's like four, five, six.

00:01:46   Like it's I swear, I don't understand.

00:01:48   Like every time we get a report card, it's like, all right, so here's music.

00:01:53   How'd you do music? Well, you got like a four, an R,

00:01:56   and a tomato, like, OK, like I don't know what this means.

00:02:00   Anyway, so yes, tier lists make more they make more sense than school report cards these days.

00:02:08   You'll see that when you get to high school and start approaching college stuff, you'll also find out that high schools across this great country of ours also have no consistency and are wildly wild.

00:02:18   So pity the poor college admissions people who have to somehow make sense of what these things mean on their transcripts.

00:02:24   Anyway, tier lists, we'll put the links in these show notes.

00:02:27   I'll make sure we get them into the regular show notes here.

00:02:30   There's a Wikipedia page on it and there's a know your meme page.

00:02:33   Apparently has origins in fighting games.

00:02:36   And as you would imagine, A is good.

00:02:39   It's better than B and C. But there's also an S tier, which is above A.

00:02:42   Sometimes they do pluses and minuses like S plus S minus A plus A minus.

00:02:46   Anyway, we did a very traditional one with S at the top and then A through D and then F for failing.

00:02:52   And what did we rank?

00:02:54   Every iPhone that has been released at the time of recording.

00:02:57   Indeed.

00:02:57   Not counting color variance or size variance.

00:03:00   You know what I mean?

00:03:00   No, no, size variance we did.

00:03:02   No, I mean like storage size.

00:03:04   Oh, yeah.

00:03:05   And that actually did come up in some I'm not going to spoil it for people, but one of the phones, one of the complaints people had who listened to the episode about the phones is like, yeah, I kind of agree with your rating of the phone, except if you consider that Apple sold it with way too little storage for too long, which we didn't consider.

00:03:19   But, you know, it's hard to factor that in.

00:03:20   Anyway, we ranked the iPhones and there's actually a video version if you want to see the tier list as we drag things up into it.

00:03:28   But that's how it works.

00:03:28   The tier list starts empty and you grab something, you say, where does it go?

00:03:31   Is this an A?

00:03:32   Is it a B?

00:03:32   Is it a C?

00:03:33   Is it an S?

00:03:33   And you drag it in there and then you start laying the things until it's entirely filled and you can watch that beautiful process happen with a link that is in the show notes.

00:03:43   But you can only get to those show notes if you are a member.

00:03:45   So go to ATP.FM/join if you want to see us rank phones.

00:03:48   And by the way, I thought, oh, it's a tier list.

00:03:50   How many phones are there?

00:03:50   There's not that many phones.

00:03:51   We'll just chuck them in the grid and we'll be done.

00:03:52   You'll be shocked to know that it took us a really long time because we argued about a lot of phones.

00:03:57   Us?

00:03:57   No.

00:03:58   Also, there are more phones than you think.

00:04:00   Like, you know, because at first you're like, there's like one phone a year.

00:04:03   And then as you get into more recent years, like, oh, they released four phones every year for like the last, you know, four or five years.

00:04:10   Like, there's a lot of options it turns out.

00:04:12   Yep, it turns out.

00:04:13   But it took us something like 90 minutes, give or take a little bit.

00:04:15   It was it was a lot of fun.

00:04:17   I almost murdered my co-host.

00:04:19   I don't know, only three or four times.

00:04:20   So I consider that a personal and moral victory.

00:04:22   So, yeah, it went well.

00:04:24   I would say, like, if you think we occasionally argue about something in the regular show, like the rate of argument per minute was way higher in in this special than it is in a regular show.

00:04:36   We take our work very seriously.

00:04:38   We're not going to chuck these things up into the grid and go, OK, whatever.

00:04:41   Just chuck it in there.

00:04:42   Anyplace is fine.

00:04:42   No, we wanted to get it right.

00:04:43   And chances are, whatever you think about the iPhones, chances are you will agree that we didn't get it right.

00:04:49   Yes, because nobody will think that we got everything right.

00:04:51   But yeah, there's so many variables.

00:04:52   The odds of you matching us exactly are slim.

00:04:55   We don't even think we got it right because we couldn't agree.

00:04:57   No, but like we have we had to come to a consensus.

00:05:00   We had to come to a often grudging consensus, which is different than us doing it individually.

00:05:04   We had to be beaten down into giving up.

00:05:06   Don't know spoilers.

00:05:07   People will see what they say.

00:05:09   All right.

00:05:10   So as as we said before, ATP.FM/join.

00:05:13   It was a lot of fun.

00:05:14   Let's do some follow up.

00:05:17   This is from anonymous with regard to the R1 chip.

00:05:21   And anonymous writes in a past episode, Marco speculated about the R1 chip running a real time OS.

00:05:26   The R1 chip does not have any significant amounts of CPU computational resources.

00:05:32   The R1 contains a SEP or secure on enclave processor, some very small, simple in order CPU cores to handle DMAing the sensor data directly into the M2.

00:05:43   Camera ISPs or image signal processors, MIPI or mobile industry processor interface, a standardized interface for connecting peripherals and sensors, a display image warping engine and a couple of leap audio DSP engines like the AirPods have.

00:05:57   The real time stuff mentioned in the WWDC keynote is in addition to the how do you pronounce this?

00:06:02   Is it XNU?

00:06:03   Is it new?

00:06:04   SNU?

00:06:05   I don't know.

00:06:05   The XNU, Darwin kernel schedule.

00:06:07   10NU.

00:06:07   Yeah, yeah.

00:06:08   Darwin kernel scheduler on an M2.

00:06:10   What we've heard about here and there and what they, I believe, went into even in the state of the union about Vision OS and how it's broken up is that modern Apple like ARM chips have the ability to run multiple OS's in parallel.

00:06:25   And I don't know whether it's technically virtualization or some other technique, but it's something like that at least.

00:06:30   And so one of the things that it is running is a real time OS alongside the Vision OS main core or.

00:06:39   That's not what this feedback is saying.

00:06:41   The feedback is saying is they just modified the new whatever schedule that the Darwin kernel schedule.

00:06:47   That's that XNU kernel is in all of our devices, in every Mac and every iPad and every iPhone and every Apple TV and every HomePod that the Darwin kernel is in there.

00:06:56   Right.

00:06:56   And that handles scheduling.

00:06:58   Right.

00:06:58   They just made a change to Darwin scheduling to have, I'm assuming, a new kind of scheduling, which is so you schedule all the stuff with your preemptive multitasking according to priorities and whatever, like the way the operating system.

00:07:09   Does.

00:07:10   But there are some extensions apparently for the kernel that runs on the M2 and Vision OS.

00:07:15   I said there's another kind of scheduling, which is I don't care what the hell else is going on.

00:07:18   This is going to get this amount of CPU time, you know, on schedule no matter what else is happening.

00:07:24   And so that's what I think that I don't think it's running two different OS's or anything or slicing them, even if the ARM processor is capable of that, at least from what this feedback says, is simply a modification of the scheduler to give it a.

00:07:35   This has been true of many Unix operating systems in the past, that is one of the scheduling priorities, like hard real time, like, oh, you can schedule this stuff according to your normal scheduling algorithm, but always leave X number of scheduling spots for these things if they happen to be available.

00:07:49   And if they are available, they get that spot no matter what.

00:07:52   And there's a limited number of them and they have to finish in a certain amount of time and so on and so forth.

00:07:55   That's my interpretation of this feedback.

00:07:57   Yeah, I think I think that sounds right based on how it's worded.

00:08:00   And and that would kind of make sense, but I think the, you know, the technical detail of it is, I guess, different.

00:08:06   But I think the result is the same, which is kind of exactly what we were talking about with the requirement for CarPlay controlling gauge clusters of like you need some kind of real time component, whether it's a full OS or whether it's a part of your OS.

00:08:21   There has to be a real time guaranteed component to control that kind of thing.

00:08:25   And so based on how they describe the Vision OS architecture in one of the videos, it seems like that is how Vision OS is built.

00:08:33   Is that there is this real time component that runs probably all like the room displaying stuff that uses the R1 for various things, but that the actual the actual execution of the OS code is not happening on the R1.

00:08:47   It seems that the R1 is is not like a one to one computational peer to the M2, but rather an accelerator chip that, you know, similar to other, you know, specialty accelerator chips we've seen in various hardware in the past, which is interesting to know.

00:09:02   And that kind of suggests that the R1 is maybe not as as large or sophisticated of a deal as we might have originally assumed, and that probably won't be upgraded super frequently, maybe, and might be easily broken up from the M2 or whatever else.

00:09:19   So it's this is probably a good news in the sense that the R1 is is not as probably like big and expensive and hot as we would have guessed.

00:09:27   Yeah, it sounds like an I/O chip, basically.

00:09:29   I mean, it does more than that because obviously it processes stuff, but its job is to get everything from the sensor to, as I say, DMA it into the M2, which is direct memory access, where it just shoves the data somewhere where the M2 can get it really easily.

00:09:40   The M2 doesn't have to do anything.

00:09:41   The data just appears there on a schedule.

00:09:42   Right. And it handles all the sensors.

00:09:45   And I imagine the R1 will have to be upgraded when the sensors get upgraded.

00:09:49   If they bump up the cameras and suddenly the image signal processor can't handle it.

00:09:53   Right. Or if they have it come up with a better algorithm for doing the de-warping or whatever.

00:09:56   But in the absence of that kind of upgrade, you can just keep the R1 just keeps doing its job.

00:10:01   It's a very fancy I/O processor that lets the M2 not have to deal with that stuff.

00:10:05   And the whole DMA thing is like, OK, well, then how does M2 get access to that information?

00:10:09   It's just in this place where the M2 can get to it real fast.

00:10:12   And it's just there. And the M2 is like, oh, there it is for me.

00:10:14   The fact that it's not actually running a separate operating system, at least according to this feedback, as far as we could tell, does mean that, you know, if you if you panic the kernel, everything stops.

00:10:25   Like the real time stuff doesn't get nothing gets scheduled like this is the one and only kernel.

00:10:28   Right. And so it's not like you have the kind of isolation that you need to get in a car or something where the systems really are separate and you can crash the infotainment.

00:10:34   But the speedometer, you know, keeps showing the speed.

00:10:37   This one, if you if you kernel panic it, it's game over for everything.

00:10:41   Again, as far as we can tell from this, you know, not particularly detailed feedback when we get these things, we'll find out because they'll crash.

00:10:47   And when they crash, we'll be like, oh, did it crash in such a way that everything goes away?

00:10:50   I mean, even on your Mac, sometimes things can crash and like, oh, well, you know, this app is beach balled, but these other ones still work.

00:10:57   Or like I can't do any IO, but anything that doesn't do IO still works right.

00:11:03   Like the various subsystems of the operating system can get hosed because they're often run by these separate processes or whatever.

00:11:08   But if the kernel goes down, everything goes down.

00:11:09   So, you know, once people get dev kits, because those will probably be crashy or the real thing, they will kind of find out how much work Apple has done to sort of make this bulletproof.

00:11:18   But as we discussed in past shows, if this entire thing crashes, it's not the end of the world.

00:11:23   Like it's just you just pick it off of your face.

00:11:25   Like you're not going to crash into a tree because of it.

00:11:27   I don't think they would have done it would have bent over backwards too far to make sure, like under all circumstances, that you can still see the outside world through the air thing.

00:11:35   Of course, they never want it to go all dark in your head.

00:11:37   Sick as that would be scary and stuff.

00:11:38   But I think they'll just do that the way they normally do it, which is, hey, when's the last time your phone kernel panics?

00:11:43   It doesn't happen that often.

00:11:44   They're able to make this operating system stable enough that normally what's going to happen is your app's going to crash or maybe, you know, even like the quote unquote entire user space would crash, which happens on a phone occasionally, especially with beta OS's.

00:11:56   But the kernel doesn't crash.

00:11:58   It just reboots the user space.

00:11:59   The kernel is running fine the whole time.

00:12:00   So if the kernel and the real time stuff are running the camera things, maybe that will stay up.

00:12:03   We'll see.

00:12:04   Sure enough.

00:12:05   Let's talk about vision pro vision.

00:12:09   Let's talk about foveated rendering, computational blur and VAC and all sorts of fun stuff.

00:12:15   So James Laughlin.

00:12:17   Before we go to that, before we start James's thread, because that one top line item was a reminder to me to talk about these things.

00:12:22   OK, good talk.

00:12:24   Yeah.

00:12:24   The the was it a vergence accommodation conflict thing where you have the expectation that you're the squishy process of focusing.

00:12:34   It corresponds to a particular vergence angle of your eyes and if there's a mismatch between them, it feels weird.

00:12:42   That's the VAC thing that we've been talking about.

00:12:43   And we're talking about ways to ways to deal with that.

00:12:47   Like, you know, if this headset, like as it appears to be the case, has a single focal distance for the entire headset, even if you look at something that's real close to you in the headset, something as far away in the headset, the accommodation distance is always the same.

00:13:00   Like this is just one screen.

00:13:01   It's just a one flat screen.

00:13:03   And yes, there are lenses in front of it, but if the lenses don't move, the lenses inside the thing, if the lenses don't move, the virtual, you know, the screen that you're focusing your eyes on is always going to be the same.

00:13:13   I squish distance from you.

00:13:15   So what could they do to change that?

00:13:17   Some people suggested that foveated rendering would help here.

00:13:21   Foveated rendering is where you're rendering something on the screen, but you only render in detail the part where you know the people are looking.

00:13:29   Right.

00:13:30   And that is mostly a feature that is used for like 3D games where it's really expensive to render like the whole 3D scene.

00:13:39   Like, say you have some game that you can run it on 4K on a powerful gaming PC.

00:13:43   But, you know, if you don't have a really good GPU, it only maybe gets 30 frames per second.

00:13:47   That's not great for a headset.

00:13:48   Right now, imagine you have to run two 4K screens, each showing slightly different views.

00:13:52   You have to render twice as much.

00:13:53   Oh, now I'm down to 15 frames per second.

00:13:55   That's not fast enough.

00:13:56   What am I going to do?

00:13:57   I have to run two separate 4K screens on M2 with just a plain old M2, not an M2 Pro or M2 Max.

00:14:03   How am I going to handle that?

00:14:03   Well, one way to deal with that is in a headset, you have the advantage of knowing where the person is looking.

00:14:08   So you can tell the GPU, don't render the whole 4K scene for each eye.

00:14:12   Just render in detail the part where we know they're looking.

00:14:15   And then everything else render like a half-assed version.

00:14:18   Right.

00:14:18   Lower, lower, lower, you know, a polygon count.

00:14:22   Don't use the good textures.

00:14:23   Like that's foveated rendering.

00:14:25   And that is really, people have been doing that headsets for a long time.

00:14:28   It's a really great way to get better frame rates for something where it's computationally expensive to render the whole scene.

00:14:34   You're taking advantage of the fact that you know where they're looking.

00:14:36   Does not help with VAC because first of all, it doesn't change the focal distance at all.

00:14:41   Even though you may be, you know, the other parts that where you're not looking may be quote unquote blurry.

00:14:45   They're blurry in the sense that like, if you render a game with like a lower poly count or with lower quality textures or lower resolution, they're blurry in that way.

00:14:54   But they're not blurry in terms of, oh, they're a different eye squish distance from you.

00:14:57   Like you, you looking at your finger and inch in front of your face and you looking at, you know, the horizon.

00:15:00   They're not blurry in that way.

00:15:02   And that's what the other suggestion people said.

00:15:04   What about portrait mode where they do computational blur where if you look at the coffee table inside the headset, they could computationally blur the distant wall that's behind you.

00:15:12   Then the coffee table would be clear and the wall far away would be blurry.

00:15:15   And we don't have to worry about VAC anymore.

00:15:17   But no, again, it's like looking at that on your phone screen.

00:15:21   The eye squish distance as you look at a portrait mode picture on your phone screen never changes.

00:15:25   Right. Yes. The background behind someone in portrait mode looks quote unquote blurry.

00:15:29   But your eyes continue to focus on, you know, a foot and a half from your nose.

00:15:33   Like they do not change their focal distance.

00:15:36   That when you see something blurry in a photo, it's either simulating or legitimately showing what a lens saw at that time.

00:15:43   And the lens sees some things that are sharp and some things that are blurry.

00:15:47   But when you're looking at the picture in terms of, you know, focusing on like the pixels on the screen, the whole plane of the screen is the same focal distance from you, more or less.

00:15:55   So they can't use computational blur.

00:15:57   Foveated rendering does not help.

00:15:59   None of those things are going to help with the VAC.

00:16:03   But that's where we get to James O'Loughlin.

00:16:06   How you pronounce that? I think so.

00:16:08   Thread on Mastodon that pointed us to a couple of examples of things that actually would solve this problem, unlike foveated rendering or computational blur.

00:16:16   All right. Apple Vision Pro has no solution for vergence accommodation conflict.

00:16:20   No software solution is invented, to my knowledge, by anyone.

00:16:22   It would have to be a hardware solution.

00:16:24   Metas shared many prototypes and research on this problem.

00:16:27   All solutions require various display mechanics and optics.

00:16:30   Search, for example, for very focal oculus.

00:16:33   I did that. And that's what's in the show notes here.

00:16:35   Indeed. Eye tracking is table stakes for any solution.

00:16:37   Magically, one had two focal planes on its displays and used eye tracking to switch between the two.

00:16:42   Oh, and yes, VAC can cause eye strain if dense visual elements are placed too close to a person.

00:16:48   The UI, for example, or reading a book after a few minutes, not sure how long it'll take for various people, will cause eye strain.

00:16:54   MetaQuest Pro is the closest thing to a dev kit available now for the Apple Vision Pro.

00:16:58   Good prototyping tool, serious about Vision OS development, in James's opinion.

00:17:02   But you need to obviously recognize the constraints of the MetaQuest Pro and Apple Vision Pro and work within them.

00:17:09   Obviously, this requires Unreal Unity dev experience to prototype for it to make sense.

00:17:13   So here is the some of the things they mentioned.

00:17:16   Oculus is very focal lenses.

00:17:19   Exactly what they sound like.

00:17:21   They're little lenses inside the headset that move so that you can actually change the focal distance, presumably depending on where you're looking.

00:17:29   So when you look at the coffee table, the little lenses move so that your eye squish has to change so you can focus on the coffee table because it's closer to you.

00:17:35   When you look at the distant wall, the little lenses move again.

00:17:39   So here are a couple of excerpts from the thing we'll link in the show notes.

00:17:41   This is from 2019.

00:17:43   So it's kind of old. It's Michael Abrash, whose name you might recognize from id Software fame, working on Doom and Quake and all that stuff.

00:17:49   He I guess he came over to Oculus when, you know, Facebook bought them and, you know, John Carmack was there.

00:17:55   Anyway, that that whole group of people, apparently he was still there in 2019.

00:17:58   So this is Michael Abrash.

00:18:00   Facebook's reality lab chief scientist discussed two newer versions of the Half Dome prototype.

00:18:05   Half Dome is their name of their prototype headset thing.

00:18:07   It was revealed last year, which used moving lenses to sharpen focus.

00:18:10   Half Dome 2 is a smaller and lighter version of that.

00:18:13   The varifocal system uses voice coil actuators, which I can't pronounce.

00:18:18   It's those things that are inside like lenses for big cameras, voice coil things.

00:18:22   And also, I guess they move the heads and hard drives as well.

00:18:24   And flexure hinge arrays, I don't know what those are.

00:18:28   Compared to the original Half Dome, the parts are quieter and have less friction and are more durable.

00:18:31   So this is Half Dome 2.

00:18:33   It's the second version. It's like we found a way to move the little lenses back and forth faster and quieter with less power.

00:18:37   Similar to the advancement that you've seen in big lenses that go on cameras where they have to move your lens elements back and forth quickly and quietly.

00:18:44   In Half Dome 3, the varifocal system ditches moving mechanical parts for an electronic version,

00:18:49   which is a big contributing factor in making Half Dome 3 even smaller than the other prototypes while eliminating noise and vibrations.

00:18:54   It packs a new type of liquid crystal lens made from thin alternating stacks of two flat optical elements,

00:19:00   polarization dependent lenses or PDLs and switchable half wave plates.

00:19:05   I don't know what these things are, but what they're trying to say is there's a solid state component that lets you change focus without having to actually move lens elements.

00:19:14   I'm you know, again, I'm not sure how it does that, but like with crystal displays and all those little things, you know, bend light in various ways so it can make some sense.

00:19:20   Continuing by stacking the series of PDLs and switchable half dome, half wave plates on top of each other, we're able to achieve smooth, smooth varifocal that lets you comfortably and seamlessly adjust your focus in the headset.

00:19:31   With six liquid crystal lenses, the system can cycle through 64 focal planes.

00:19:36   The number doubles with each additional lens for smooth transitions.

00:19:39   Right. So this whole thing, and you mentioned before the 64 different focal planes, that's better than one focal plane.

00:19:44   But the granularity, I don't know what the granularity of the human eye is, how many different focal planes can you focus on?

00:19:50   But I bet it's more than 64.

00:19:52   Like if you put a paper like where you can just see it and then move it an inch and then move another inch and then move another inch, you can get a lot of different focal distances with your eye squish.

00:20:00   But I'm sure it's not infinite.

00:20:02   So that is a super interesting example of what people are trying to do to solve this problem, albeit in the prototype thing, starting with, hey, let's just have a bunch of lenses and move them and let's move them, make them move faster and quieter.

00:20:14   And can we do with no moving parts?

00:20:16   Yes. But now we only have 64 different positions.

00:20:18   It's also an open question of how many different positions that you have when you were moving the lens.

00:20:22   Is it more than 64, depending on how far it's moving?

00:20:24   And anyway, so that's real cool.

00:20:26   And the other thing that was mentioned is this company whose name by all accounts should be pronounced C real because the name of the company is capital C capital R lowercase E A L.

00:20:36   Oh, no, I kept pronouncing it serial in my head.

00:20:39   I mean, C real.

00:20:40   It's a thing about like display stuff.

00:20:42   It's like, oh, see things that are real.

00:20:43   It makes perfect sense.

00:20:44   But I watched one video and the guy who works for the company called Creel.

00:20:47   I'm like, come on, guys.

00:20:48   What?

00:20:48   No.

00:20:49   Creel, are you kidding me?

00:20:50   How is it not C real?

00:20:52   It's unbelievable.

00:20:54   The guy said Creel.

00:20:55   Why is the R capitalized?

00:20:57   I don't know.

00:20:57   Yeah.

00:20:57   Next thing you're going to tell me is that it's pronounced Jif, not Gif.

00:21:00   And that can't be right.

00:21:01   Anyway, C real.

00:21:04   I'm like letterbox, Dave.

00:21:06   I'm never going to say Creel has this thing on our technology page that will link says our unique light field display technology reconstructs light as it exists in the real world by removing the fixed focal plane and projecting true 3D images with actual focal depth.

00:21:20   Virtual objects can be blended with reality at any distance without individual conflict.

00:21:25   So this is a true AR lens.

00:21:26   They have like a pair of glasses that you put in your face to clear glasses, and they project light through those glasses into your eyeball while you're also looking at the room through those glasses.

00:21:36   And I watched their little explanation video several times.

00:21:39   And for the life of me, I cannot figure out what they're saying they're doing.

00:21:42   But the number 64 may come up again because it looked like they had like an eight by eight grid of things.

00:21:47   And they like they project a whole bunch of different images that enter your eye at different angles.

00:21:53   And then like there's basically they project all focal distance.

00:21:57   It seems like they project all focal distances at the same time.

00:21:59   And then they have like they had an example like, oh, you're looking at a hummingbird that's going to land on your finger.

00:22:03   But then you're looking at like the, you know, the virtual screen that's 10 feet away.

00:22:07   Those are the two different focal distances.

00:22:08   You just choose what you want to look at.

00:22:10   You want to look at the hummingbird.

00:22:11   Focus your eyes on the hummingbird, just like if it was there in real life.

00:22:14   If you want to look at the screen across the room, focus your eyes on the screen across room, just like if it was there in real life.

00:22:19   No, no moving parts.

00:22:21   No, like figuring out where you're looking.

00:22:23   No eye tracking whatsoever.

00:22:24   It's just they produce they call it the light field.

00:22:27   And I've seen a lot of things about these light fields where they where they put all just like when you're looking in the real world, when you're looking in your room in the real world, the room doesn't know where you're looking.

00:22:36   All the light from the room is just coming into your eyes at a million different angles.

00:22:40   And you by focusing your eye, by squishing the little lens element to your eye, you're able to choose which part of the room is in focus.

00:22:47   And yes, your virgins also, you know, virgins to deal with the binocular vision, so you're not seeing double or seeing like overlapping images.

00:22:53   That's what virgins does for you.

00:22:54   And the combination of squishing lenses focuses whatever light that you want to be in sharp focus on the back of your retina.

00:23:02   And that's what they say their light field display does, although it did show like an 8 by 8 grid of things.

00:23:06   So maybe it also has 64 to 40 focal planes.

00:23:08   But so there is a preview of potential future technologies for Apple Vision Pro version two after the CEO, after Tim Cook has a 20 year reign and decides he wants to take another run at AR goggles because the first one failed.

00:23:22   Wow. Spoiler alert for 20 years from now.

00:23:26   We don't know how it's going to turn out, but anybody like if this is a successful product, eventually technologies like the ones we're seeing here are inevitable because it's the next step in making it more natural.

00:23:36   Whether it's actually AR where you're looking through a pair of glasses, which we always talk about, and they just can't really do that well at this point, or simply a headset with a variable focus distance, because that feels more real and it feels a lot less like you're looking at a screen inside a headset, which is what we're doing right now.

00:23:53   All right.

00:23:54   Vision Pro limits.

00:23:56   The Vision Pro safe area is limited to a 10 by 10 foot square for VR experiences.

00:24:02   Apple says when you start a fully immersive experience, Vision OS defines a system boundary that extends one and a half meters from the initial position of the person's head.

00:24:09   If the head moves outside of that zone, the system automatically stops the immersive experience and turns on the external video again.

00:24:16   This features an assistant to help prevent someone from colliding with objects.

00:24:19   So if you thought you're going to be like, oh, on top of Mount Hood, I'm going to walk around.

00:24:23   No, you're not.

00:24:24   I mean, they showed them in the demo of like, oh, that's the breakthrough type of thing.

00:24:28   But like Apple could choose to have this environment, like essentially move with you.

00:24:32   Right.

00:24:32   You would, you know, so you'd walk two feet forward and you'd be two feet forward in the in the Mount Hood space, but it would still keep projecting Mount Hood around you.

00:24:38   And for safety reasons, apparently the first version of Vision OS when you were in a VR experience, which means you can't see any of the outside world, you're allowed to sit there and be in any expansive environment you want.

00:24:49   But you've only got basically five feet in any direction before your head pops out of that virtual square.

00:24:55   And they say, ah, you've gone too far.

00:24:56   And, you know, that makes sense because, you know, again, we talked about it in the keynote.

00:25:00   They did not show people moving around much with this.

00:25:03   The only thing they ever showed anyone mobile at all was the guy, you know, taking video of his daughter's birthday.

00:25:08   Right.

00:25:08   And that was different than being entirely in VR.

00:25:11   So they're very conservative to start.

00:25:13   Additionally, Apple Vision Pro is a speed limit and travel mode is required for use on flights.

00:25:19   This is from 9 to 5 Mac.

00:25:21   Oh, shoot.

00:25:21   I forgot to mention the prior link, which we will have in the show notes to 9 to 5 Mac talking about the Vision Pro safe area.

00:25:30   There is an embed in that of 12 minutes of VR fails, which is probably not the fun, the nicest thing for me to laugh at.

00:25:39   But this is people like, you know, punching TVs and falling into walls.

00:25:43   I apparently am a terrible human and I thought it was hilarious.

00:25:46   So don't sleep on that anyways.

00:25:48   And we'll put a link directly to that video in the show notes.

00:25:50   How are my balls by Casey Liss.

00:25:52   Yeah, right.

00:25:53   Exactly.

00:25:54   All right.

00:25:54   Apple Vision Pro is the speed limit and travel mode is required for use on flights.

00:25:57   Internal Vision OS code seen by 9 to 5 Mac suggests that the Apple Vision Pro will limit its functionality or even stop working entirely when the user is moving too fast.

00:26:05   The system has alerts that tell the person wearing the headset that they're "moving at unsafe speeds."

00:26:10   Is that written by Nader, Ralph Nader?

00:26:13   Is that right?

00:26:13   Another alert message found in the Vision OS code warns the user "virtual content has been temporarily hidden until you return to a safe speed."

00:26:23   The system may act as a protection so that users don't try to interact with Vision Pro while driving a car, for example.

00:26:27   Vision OS also has a travel mode designed to let users interact with the device even on a plane.

00:26:32   Quote, "If you're on an airplane, you'll need to keep travel mode on to continue using your Apple Vision Pro," a message reads.

00:26:37   However, based on the Vision OS code, the inputs when using travel mode will be limited and the user must remain stationary for it to work.

00:26:43   Don't worry about that.

00:26:44   We're packed in like veal on those planes.

00:26:47   And this is, you know, these both of these, you know, the safe area and the, you know, speed limit and airplane mode.

00:26:53   You got to figure like when Apple releases a new product, the level of scrutiny on them is massive.

00:27:00   And the level of like, you know, the number of people out there who are going to try to generate a bad PR story or who will amplify a bad PR story if one exists is also massive.

00:27:12   So they have to be really careful that whatever they release, there's not going to be some story a week later that some idiot like got themselves killed doing something really stupid with it or worse, you know.

00:27:26   And so these are very clearly like, you know, the 10 by 10 for VR experience.

00:27:31   That's because if they didn't do that and somebody walked into their TV instead of being in Casey's video, they would just sue Apple.

00:27:38   You know, and like, and if somebody stupidly put one of these on while driving a car and they crashed and killed somebody, they would also sue Apple.

00:27:47   Like, you know, it's not about being sued.

00:27:49   It's also the right thing to do.

00:27:50   Like, that's right.

00:27:50   Yeah, they are under more scrutiny.

00:27:52   But I feel like the people making these decisions weren't first and foremost thinking like lawyers.

00:27:55   They're mostly just thinking like good people.

00:27:57   But yes, additionally, of course, if you know, there is there is an increased scrutiny in anything Apple does.

00:28:02   Right.

00:28:03   Like, you know, if you look at like all the all the hoops they jump through with air tags to make sure that they can't be used very effectively as stocking devices.

00:28:10   And they didn't get that quite right on the first try either.

00:28:12   And they're still trying.

00:28:13   Right.

00:28:13   Yeah.

00:28:14   And like and you look at look around like the rest of the industry, you can buy a GPS tracker for like 20 bucks that doesn't do any of those safety things that, you know, like it's there.

00:28:24   The whole industry is filled with devices that are easily used for terrible purposes.

00:28:30   And those companies get around get along just fine.

00:28:32   But Apple can't do that.

00:28:34   They have they're way too big.

00:28:35   They have way too much scrutiny on them.

00:28:36   And frankly, they care too much about doing the right thing.

00:28:39   You know, those companies change their names every five minutes anyway.

00:28:41   So they do.

00:28:42   Yeah, it's impossible to have any scrutiny on them.

00:28:44   As soon as you scrutinize them and disappear, a new company pops up with a different set of consonants.

00:28:47   Right, exactly.

00:28:49   But anyway, so so yeah, you know, Apple is going to be more conservative because they you know, a they do think it's the right thing to do.

00:28:56   And that's probably correct.

00:28:56   But also be they have to be because they have so much scrutiny on it on everything they do.

00:29:00   So they're going to do everything they can to make to make absolutely sure that the Vision Pro is very difficult to impossible to use in really stupid, harmful ways.

00:29:11   Yeah.

00:29:12   And like I said before, I suspect, although I don't know because I haven't tried it and I don't think anybody has, there are pretty severe limitations on the sensor distances that are useful with this thing.

00:29:23   So, you know, how far does LIDAR go?

00:29:26   How you know, is there is there anything?

00:29:28   Is there a fallback when the LIDAR can't reach anymore?

00:29:30   There's a little LIDAR sprayer things.

00:29:31   You can try them on the iPad like they don't reach to infinity.

00:29:33   They're not going to they're not going to travel a city block, right?

00:29:35   They're not useful at a certain distance.

00:29:38   Does it fall back to camera?

00:29:39   How far does the camera go?

00:29:40   How much image processing are going to go?

00:29:41   They this this device does not have any awareness of its surroundings beyond some reasonable limit based on the sensors that are in it because it's not designed to.

00:29:49   It's not designed for you to get on the back of a horse and go riding off into the you know, it's not I don't think it's designed for you to be out on the city street walking around.

00:29:55   There's just too much stuff happening.

00:29:57   It's designed to be used the way Apple showed it being used, which does not involve a lot of motion and involves a lot of fairly simple controlled environments.

00:30:05   And so everything about this product is trying to tell you this is how you should and must use it because it's just you know, it can't make sense of the world outside of a bubble that that it sensor range extends to.

00:30:17   And unlike something like a driver assistance in a car, it's sensor range is probably not that big and doesn't have to be for the job it's being sold to do.

00:30:27   We got some feedback, semi conflicting feedback about my well, really, Aaron's Volvo windshield.

00:30:33   Alan D. writes before becoming an iOS developer, I was very heavily involved in the automotive windscreen trade.

00:30:39   Let me pause here for a second.

00:30:41   There's a reason I bolded that.

00:30:42   We always talk about how we say we talk about anything on the show.

00:30:45   There'll be some listener who's an expert in the field.

00:30:48   I feel like it's just trolling us now.

00:30:49   I was an iOS developer, but I was also heavily involved in the automotive windscreen.

00:30:55   So like one is like files into the show and I know a lot about windscreens on a write in.

00:31:00   But like but you know, before becoming an iOS developer, I just now everything's going to be like I work at Apple now.

00:31:06   But previously I was a master chef.

00:31:08   And let me tell you, we have not only do we have listener in every industry on every topic that we're ever going to talk about, but also a bunch of them are also now currently like Apple employees or iOS developers.

00:31:18   Anyway, I just thought that was fascinating.

00:31:19   And I would just like to build on that by saying that's freaking awesome.

00:31:24   And I'm very proud of all of us.

00:31:25   I really am.

00:31:26   So Alan, before becoming iOS developer, I was heavily involved in the automotive windscreen trade working for Belron.

00:31:31   They own Safe Flight Auto Glass for over 15 years.

00:31:33   Casey mentioned that he didn't get an OEM windscreen made by Volvo as the main problem with his windscreen.

00:31:37   This is a common mistake made by a lot of customers who assume that Volvo, BMW, and Audi, et cetera, all make the windscreens that go into their car, where in fact the manufacturer simply outsourced to the cheapest manufacturer and then get them to apply the relevant logo during the process.

00:31:48   If you look at the many different brands of cars, depending on the year of manufacture, you'll see the glass is made by lots of different companies with the car logo next to it.

00:31:54   It is better to look for a windscreen made by a competent manufacturer than simply look for the car logo.

00:31:58   Another pause here.

00:31:59   We've talked about this on the show before in our various neutral segments with a little car door noise.

00:32:03   And I know from the car rebuilding channels, the categories of things that you can buy for your car are OE, which is original equipment, which is if you have a Honda car, you can go to the Honda parts dealer and they will sell you a genuine Honda, whatever it is.

00:32:18   Right.

00:32:19   Of course, car manufacturers don't make all those parts.

00:32:22   They have parts companies that make them for you.

00:32:24   Maybe Bosch makes some sensor for them or, you know, makes the windscreens or like this.

00:32:28   There's every company tires are made by the tires actually branded by the companies that made it.

00:32:33   But every single part of your car, chances are good unless it's like an integral part of the engine.

00:32:37   But even then are made by some other manufacturer, but they're made for Honda, for BMW.

00:32:42   The OE ones will have a BMW name or logo on them.

00:32:46   The Honda ones will say Honda on them very often.

00:32:48   Right.

00:32:49   Then you have OEM, which is original equipment manufacturer.

00:32:52   They're not OE, but they're the exact same part.

00:32:55   Often the company will make the part, as I said on a past show, like, so make a part for BMW.

00:32:59   Here's a BMW, quote unquote, BMW water pump, but it's made by some company that makes these things right.

00:33:03   When you buy it OEM one, it's cheaper and two, it's often the exact same part, but they file off the BMW that stamped into the metal.

00:33:11   Like it's literally the same part, but they don't even make two different ones.

00:33:15   One with the BMW stamped and one with not.

00:33:17   They file off the BMW and say, oh, now this is, this is OEM because it's from the original equipment manufacturer, but it's not the original BMW equipment could be filed off the BMW.

00:33:26   Normally they just make them without the logo.

00:33:27   Right.

00:33:27   And then finally there's third party, which is this will fit in your BMW and theory will do the job of the water pump, but it is not made by the company that made the water pumps for BMW.

00:33:37   And by the way, often BMW will source water pumps from two or three different companies for the same car generation.

00:33:42   So it's not even just one.

00:33:43   And it certainly is an OE with the actual BMW logo on it.

00:33:47   So I think that's what, uh, that Alan is trying to say here that when you get a windshield, yes, of course these companies don't make their own windshields.

00:33:52   They buy them from somebody, but you can get an OE one, which is going to have a Volvo logo on it, whatever you can get an OEM one, which is made by the exact same company that made the OE one, but it doesn't have a Volvo logo on it.

00:34:03   And then you can get one that's third party that will fit on your Volvo, but is not made by the company that makes windscreens for this car for Volvo.

00:34:10   Right.

00:34:11   And I think the first of the two windshields we had put in the car is a third party, or was a third party one.

00:34:16   And I can tell you for a fact, my lived experience, as they say, is that the heads up display was blurry when, when projected onto that windshield.

00:34:25   I don't recall who manufactured what the deal was, but it was not a windshield stamped with the Volvo logo.

00:34:32   We now have a windshield stamped with the Volvo logo and hey, guess what?

00:34:36   The heads up display works perfectly.

00:34:38   So I don't know how Alan wants to justify that.

00:34:41   Uh, I don't know what the head Canon is for that, but I can tell you,

00:34:43   Well, did you see, I know you have more feedback on this, but you see the other feedback was saying that a lot of it could also be calibration issues regardless of who manufactured the wind screen.

00:34:51   You know what I mean?

00:34:51   Yeah.

00:34:52   But again, I find that pretty skeptical or I'm pretty skeptical about that because it also, when the safe flight, the first time they tried to replace the windshield, somebody came out and was like, Oh, this isn't the right windshield.

00:35:02   It doesn't work with heads up display.

00:35:04   And then they just turned around and left.

00:35:05   So, I mean, I obviously don't really know what I'm talking about, but all I do know is that a third party windshield went in, it didn't work with the HUD and then a first party or either OEM windshield went in and I guess it was OE because it's Volvo stamped on it.

00:35:19   It doesn't matter.

00:35:20   Anyway, something with Volvo on it now works and that's what matters.

00:35:22   Uh, then Alan continues, Casey recommended that the listeners take their car to the dealership windscreen replacement.

00:35:27   This is a huge mistake.

00:35:28   So person with hammer says, Oh look, you should, you should find nails everywhere.

00:35:32   Anyway, in all my years of experience, the dealers do not have specialist tools and chemicals needed to change windscreen.

00:35:37   The dealer nearly always calls a third party to come in and change windscreen and you have no say in who is doing the work.

00:35:41   It is often the cheapest company they can find.

00:35:43   The dealer then adds a markup and passes this on to the insurance company.

00:35:45   I get that, but I can tell you that when I was speaking to my local Volvo dealer, they said, Oh, we have a specific guy.

00:35:52   I guess technically speaking, it could have been someone they brought in, but the implication from the way they were saying it was, it's absolutely somebody they brought in.

00:35:59   Uh, that was not the, that was not the implication I had.

00:36:01   Based on the way I know a guy.

00:36:03   Yeah, it's fine.

00:36:04   No, no, that's my point is that they had, it was the way they spoke of it is that they had a specific employee that did this sort of work because they said like he was out a certain day or something like that, but it's typically in, I don't know, it doesn't matter.

00:36:15   But anyway, sounds like they know a guy.

00:36:17   I mean, maybe, but, and again, like the sales, the, the, the particular Volvo dealer that we work with, like the sales department, I probably made this speech before, but sales department was a bunch of sleazeballs at the time we bought.

00:36:29   I mean, when we bought a car dealer, well, no, but it was real bad in so far as like we were talking to a guy that's the sales person and I, and I would, Aaron would ask a question and he would look at her, listen to her question and then look at me to answer the question.

00:36:44   It was very bad.

00:36:45   Oh God.

00:36:46   Yeah, it was, it was super gross.

00:36:47   Uh, but we got a great deal in the car, so that's all that matters, right?

00:36:50   Anyway, we also had anonymous feedback, uh, from a former safe flight tech 32 years worth who says, I am saddened to hear it took three trips to finish.

00:36:59   But I'm not surprised they continued on later.

00:37:01   If you get a tech that cares about the quality of their work and then you have nothing to worry about, it's just that those folks are few and far between safe flight gives their texts raises or cuts their pay.

00:37:10   According to four metrics, they keep on you, your speed and efficiency damage control and wiper sales.

00:37:14   I'm dumbing it down, but that's the gist of it.

00:37:16   And I got to tell you, that sounds more like my experience.

00:37:19   Who knows?

00:37:21   Yeah.

00:37:21   The one that didn't make it into the notes here was someone talking about calibration specifically with Volvo and saying that like some of these cars have like a.

00:37:28   They have a calibration they'll do while you're driving.

00:37:30   That's allegedly what the Volvo one is.

00:37:32   Right.

00:37:33   But, but the, uh, but they don't have the ability to write that calibration because like the, the, the stored calibration is right protected.

00:37:39   So the next time you power off and power on the car, it goes back to the stored calibration and it's off again until you drive a little bit.

00:37:44   And if you go to the Volvo dealer, the Volvo dealer has the computer to override the right protect to calibrate it either live or stationary, get the new calibration values written to the stored value.

00:37:55   And then you don't have to worry about it losing calibration when you disconnect the battery or whatever.

00:37:58   So I feel like most of the magic with the dealer here is in the tools used to make your car happy with the windshield setting aside that potentially.

00:38:06   Yes.

00:38:06   If you just bought one that doesn't work with that as a display period, because it's just totally the wrong one.

00:38:10   It doesn't have whatever.

00:38:11   It doesn't have the reflective properties that are required, but if it was just blurry, it could just be that this one ended up a slight, you know, three millimeters different distance and they just needed to calibrate it, but they didn't have the tools to count.

00:38:21   Because if you think about it, if you're if you're Safe Flight or whatever, you're not going to have the tools to talk to the computer of every single car to do the calibration.

00:38:28   All that all that calibration stuff is lots of little setups and things.

00:38:31   And you have to like they can't do that for every car in the world.

00:38:33   So that's I feel like the value you're getting the dealer is if there are tools to configure and calibrate and override the right protection and, you know, put a little test pattern or whatever, whatever they have to do to do to do the calibration.

00:38:45   They'll have it at the Volvo dealer because they service Volvos, but Safe Flight is not going to have one for every car make and model in year for the past, you know, 50 years to be able to have the windshields for it because they can just order it.

00:38:55   Right. But they won't have the calibration tools.

00:38:57   And that's that's my theory on this whole thing.

00:38:59   I mean, I agree with you, but it stands to reason that they should.

00:39:03   Right. Because this is what they do for a living.

00:39:05   You know, it's Tom Cruise.

00:39:05   Well, I think their work is like, you know, I think their work is changing.

00:39:08   I think it used to be just replace the glass.

00:39:10   Right. And now it's like, what?

00:39:11   Heads up, display cameras, sensors.

00:39:14   Like it's a it's a new world.

00:39:15   I bet they will either adapt or die because, yeah, it's it's becoming their job.

00:39:19   Pretty soon, every new car will have some crap that needs to see through or reflect on the windshield and Safe Flight's got to figure out how they're going to deal with that.

00:39:25   Exactly. Well, the other funny thing about this is already going on too long.

00:39:28   I'm sorry. But the other funny thing about this was when I was filling out like the the oh, I need a new windshield and they asked, OK, what's your car?

00:39:35   And I could have provided the VIN, but I didn't have it handy.

00:39:38   And so I said, oh, you know, it's 2017 Volvo XC90.

00:39:40   And they asked, does it have heated seats, which I think was their indication whether or not it had a particular package.

00:39:47   But yeah, I wish that they had been a little more specific because I think that they they did not know these Volvo or the option packages well enough to ask the appropriate questions to discern the fact that I had a heads up display.

00:39:59   So, I mean, it is what it is.

00:40:01   But I don't know.

00:40:03   It's funny to me that this is conflicting feedback from somebody who worked for the parent company of Safe Flight and someone who allegedly worked for Safe Flight themselves.

00:40:10   All right. Quickly moving on.

00:40:11   We were talking several weeks ago now before WWDC about fixing a bug for only one developer.

00:40:17   Do you guys remember what the context was for that?

00:40:19   I forget why we were talking.

00:40:20   They were saying someone their feedback was why would Apple bother fixing your bug?

00:40:24   You're not an important developer for those shaky window one.

00:40:27   Wouldn't they pay more attention to like Adobe or Microsoft or whatever?

00:40:31   Oh, yes.

00:40:32   Yes. And my explanation was that even if it's a bug found by a dinky developer, that same bug could affect the important developers or Apple itself.

00:40:38   Sorry about that. Yes.

00:40:39   So thank you. So, uh, Guy Rambo, friend of the show, wrote when Apple released Mac OS Monterey, it broke something very specific in core Bluetooth that I'm pretty sure only affected my app.

00:40:48   I filed a feedback and got a lab appointment and they fixed it during the beta cycle.

00:40:51   This is a counterpoint to the idea that they'd never prioritize a report from a small developer.

00:40:55   And that's the other part of it is like when you're on Apple or thing like this giant monolithic thing.

00:40:59   But the individuals who work on the team that does Bluetooth probably really want to know if there's a bug affecting Bluetooth.

00:41:06   And they're not thinking like, oh, I'm the big corporate Apple.

00:41:09   I have to I have to balance the priorities.

00:41:12   No, they're just on the Bluetooth team.

00:41:13   So if you go to a lab with the people who are on the Bluetooth team and you show them a blog in the Bluetooth stack, they're going to fix it because that's what programmers do.

00:41:20   And they're not their mind is not clouded by giant strategic visions of how resources have to be allocated across the entire organization.

00:41:25   They just want to fix the Bluetooth stack.

00:41:26   And yes, maybe they're overworked and have to do something else for this release.

00:41:30   So they can't get to it. But for low level stuff like that, chances are good.

00:41:34   The Bluetooth team isn't overburdened by having to make a bunch of widgets for the new version of Mac OS.

00:41:38   So then more from Guy with this is with regard to Swift UI on the Mac.

00:41:43   Swift UI does suck on the Mac if you're writing an iOS app and expecting it to work on the Mac.

00:41:47   If you're making a Mac app, it's fantastic, especially if you know enough app kit to be dangerous.

00:41:52   Paraphrasing Guy, Swift UI uses iPad controls only for catalyst for pure Mac OS apps.

00:41:58   Swift UI renders this app kit.

00:42:00   Then we also got some feedback from Clarko via Mastodon, we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:42:04   Swift UI isn't responsible for what you dislike about system settings.

00:42:08   By default, Swift UI uses the app kit widgets.

00:42:10   You have to opt into different styles which system settings has done.

00:42:13   And then you can quibble about those styles for sure.

00:42:15   But this is about the designers, not the technology.

00:42:17   So Clarko has a couple of screenshots, again, link in the show notes.

00:42:20   There's a form style grouped in a toggle style switch.

00:42:24   And if you set those appropriately, you can get the difference between what you would expect to see, which is the kind of Mac idioms, if you will, and the god awful system setting stuff, which is more iOS style.

00:42:37   So you can see those links, those pictures in the show notes.

00:42:40   It's pretty, pretty stark.

00:42:41   I replied to this on Mastodon.

00:42:43   I had two things to say about it.

00:42:45   First, I didn't say this is Mastodon, but this is definitely true.

00:42:47   Swift UI on the Mac is not a wonderful, beautiful garden as it's described here.

00:42:54   You know, witness my continuing weeks of trying to debug one of the most basic things for Swift UI on the Mac with app kit, which is the ability to show Swift UI view literally anywhere in an app kit app.

00:43:08   And that's, you know, a bug with that basic functionality is what I'm currently fighting with.

00:43:12   So forgive me if I don't think that Swift UI on the Mac is a paradise.

00:43:15   But the second thing is, yes, there are the different interface styles.

00:43:19   So it's not like, oh, you don't blame Swift UI for system settings.

00:43:22   Swift UI can do it the other way, too.

00:43:23   Here's the thing. Apple made system settings.

00:43:26   They are choosing to use the ugly, worse, crappier like, you know, interface style and not the app kit controls.

00:43:34   And they're choosing that with each new thing that they make.

00:43:37   So regardless of if it can show the app kit controls in that style, Apple seems to be saying, no, no, no, this is the way you write Mac apps now.

00:43:44   They got to look like this garbage.

00:43:46   And that's what we're complaining about.

00:43:47   It's not like we're blaming Swift UI.

00:43:48   We're saying Apple wants to use Swift UI and this is the new thing.

00:43:53   And Apple is using it.

00:43:54   So it's a pretty strong hint that Apple's saying, hey, this is the way.

00:43:58   Yes, it still supports the old way, but that's only because we hadn't finished this new way.

00:44:01   Now that the new way is done, please do it like this so none of your pop up buttons have any borders and all the labels are really far away for the controls and the checkboxes become toggle switches for some stupid reason.

00:44:10   And that's what we're mad about.

00:44:11   So there are plenty of things to blame Swift UI for on the Mac.

00:44:15   But this I'm blaming on the whole sort of Apple's new way to write Mac apps.

00:44:21   They think this is the way Mac apps should look and behave.

00:44:23   And I disagree because I think it's bad and ugly.

00:44:25   No argument here.

00:44:27   All right. Alex writes, you talked about the AirJet solid state cooling system on a past episode.

00:44:32   This was quite a while ago now.

00:44:34   Now it's in a mini PC and there's a link to a Mastodon post.

00:44:38   This is the thing that looks kind of like a PCMCIA card, but it's actually not literally, but effectively a fan.

00:44:45   You know, it will suck in warm air and blow it out the other end using like a vibrating membrane or something like that.

00:44:50   Not a vibrating membrane.

00:44:51   It's like, it's like the little, it's like a solid state thing.

00:44:53   It's like Silicon things.

00:44:55   Kind of like, you remember the, uh, the, what is it they called?

00:44:57   Marco?

00:44:57   Remember this, the digital linear projector?

00:44:59   What were those?

00:45:00   Yeah.

00:45:00   DLP.

00:45:01   Yeah.

00:45:02   It was like, it was like a microchip and had a bunch of little reflective surfaces on it.

00:45:05   They can move based on like applying electricity to the things behind it, but they're really, really, really tiny.

00:45:09   And this is like that.

00:45:11   It's a bunch of like little tiny Silicon things that move and sort of swoosh the air along through this tiny narrow channel.

00:45:18   We put a video whenever last time, but you can watch this thing.

00:45:20   It's like air comes out of this box and there's quote unquote, no moving parts in the box.

00:45:25   There is there's moving parts, but they're really small.

00:45:27   So they're hard to see.

00:45:28   Um, uh, it's still kind of cool.

00:45:30   We are sponsored this week by meh.com, M E H dot com, meh.com.

00:45:38   And what I like about this, this is one of my favorite sites on the internet and I'll tell you why.

00:45:42   So what it is basically is a store that sells one really great deal a day.

00:45:48   So you can go, you go there every day and you see what are they selling today?

00:45:51   And it's usually some like deeply discounted kind of close out price on, on actually pretty good stuff.

00:45:57   Um, and, and I've actually bought a few things from there myself.

00:46:00   They often even have Apple stuff.

00:46:02   Uh, oftentimes it's like, you know, like kind of an outgoing model or like accessories or things like that.

00:46:07   Uh, they had great deals on watch bands recently, like Apple watch bands that were amazing deals.

00:46:12   Um, so there's really great deals on meh, but they actually cater not only to people who want what they're selling,

00:46:18   but they also cater to people who don't want what they're selling every day.

00:46:21   And they're just kind of there to read the site or to join the community or comment on stuff because what they do,

00:46:27   it isn't just like, you know, an Amazon sales page per day or whatever.

00:46:30   It is a full like writeup in a great style.

00:46:35   It's very amusing.

00:46:36   It doesn't take itself seriously.

00:46:38   And they are really good writers there.

00:46:40   And so it's just like a fun sales pitch every day for whatever they're selling.

00:46:44   And this has earned them a community full of geeks, you know, people like us, friendly people.

00:46:50   Um, and so for everything they sell, they have this funny writeup, the community, they might have a ridiculous song or a goofy poll,

00:46:57   all for people not only who are buying the thing, but even people who just show up who don't want to buy the thing because men knows that you're not going to buy everything they're selling.

00:47:05   So they focus on making it a great place to hang out.

00:47:08   So you actually go back there and read it every day and they largely succeed at that.

00:47:12   And I find it so fun.

00:47:13   I love this site.

00:47:14   So check out meh.com.

00:47:17   m e h dot com slash ATP.

00:47:19   Use that link so then they know you came from here.

00:47:22   Meh dot com slash ATP.

00:47:25   Whether you want to buy anything or not, it's a fun read.

00:47:28   It's a great site. Check it out.

00:47:29   Meh dot com slash ATP.

00:47:31   Thank you so much to Meh for sponsoring our show.

00:47:38   All right.

00:47:38   We should talk at least briefly.

00:47:41   There's a little bit of development with regard to Apollo and it's unfortunate shutdown.

00:47:47   Uh, quick chief summarizer and chief summary, uh, Reddit looked at Twitter and said, Oh, that thing that you did with the third party devs that was super evil and really, really not cool.

00:47:58   That looked awesome.

00:48:00   We want to do that too.

00:48:02   So they, they said to, uh, pretty much all their third party devs, Hey, we're going to charge you.

00:48:07   Literally millions of dollars.

00:48:09   And we're going to do that in like two weeks.

00:48:11   So Apollo is shutting down.

00:48:13   There's a bunch of other, um, uh, equivalent apps that are shutting down.

00:48:17   And apparently Apollo is following in the footsteps of our other beloved apps, tweet bot and Twitterrific and is doing the, you know, Hey, you can choose to get your refund, but would you like to not get your refund?

00:48:33   Um, which is what I, I actually went and updated Apollo earlier with the expectation that I would see that prompt and would immediately say, no, I do not need my money back, but it didn't prompt me.

00:48:42   So I don't know if maybe I didn't grab it.

00:48:44   I did the same thing.

00:48:45   Yeah.

00:48:45   Maybe, maybe I think expired.

00:48:47   I don't know, but I updated for the same reason.

00:48:48   Or maybe you weren't on an annual plan.

00:48:50   Uh, that's what it was.

00:48:51   I think I did a one time purchase.

00:48:52   You're right.

00:48:53   Cause I think I did the like $70, like super mega one time purchasing.

00:48:57   I think that's what it is.

00:48:57   Good call, Marco.

00:48:58   A few things to know here, you know, so first of all, you know, we didn't talk about the Reddit thing.

00:49:02   Yeah.

00:49:03   Cause none of us are super into, into that community.

00:49:05   So we don't really know much about it besides, didn't we talk about it?

00:49:08   I thought we never actually did.

00:49:09   Oh, that's, that's why I kind of object to Casey summary, which is not particularly accurate.

00:49:14   All right.

00:49:15   No.

00:49:15   All right, fine.

00:49:16   Screw it.

00:49:16   Let's dig into it.

00:49:17   All right.

00:49:17   So yeah.

00:49:17   All right, let's go back.

00:49:18   All right.

00:49:18   So right.

00:49:19   It's being a jerk.

00:49:19   No.

00:49:20   So, you know, looking at the red situation, I, because again, huge disclaimer that none of us are heavy Reddit users.

00:49:27   So we're not, we're not really in that community.

00:49:30   So it's hard, it's hard to, to judge the like nitty gritty specifics of it.

00:49:34   But if you look at the behavior of, of Reddit CEO, Steve Huffman, is it his name?

00:49:41   I believe that's right.

00:49:42   Yeah.

00:49:42   I, you know, cause again, I, this is not part of my world really, so I didn't really know him.

00:49:46   But it's hard for me to think less of him than I think right now.

00:49:50   Because the way he has conducted it, so what they, what they've chosen to do in broad strokes is Reddit has decided, you know,

00:49:59   fairly recently, like in the last few months, they decided we're going to, we're going to start charging money for API access.

00:50:04   And look, it's their company that is their prerogative to do.

00:50:08   They, they can, they can choose to have an API or not.

00:50:12   They can choose the terms with which that API is used.

00:50:15   So it is their prerogative, just like it is Twitter's prerogative, to, to set pricing or limitations on their API, or to say, you know what,

00:50:22   we don't even want this kind of app to use our API at all.

00:50:25   Or they can say, Hey, we're not even going to have an API.

00:50:28   I run an app with a web service, and I choose specifically not to have a public API for lots of reasons.

00:50:33   So, you know, that is their prerogative to, to choose that and to operate it as they see fit for their business and whatever.

00:50:39   What makes this needlessly hostile and horrible are multiple factors.

00:50:46   You know, number one, as, as Casey said, like the pricing that they chose to set was pretty high and basically makes their party apps impossible.

00:50:55   Now, again, that is their prerogative.

00:50:58   They can do that.

00:50:59   But there's like with many things with Twitter's horrible new owner, there's a good way to do things.

00:51:05   And then there's a jerk way to do things.

00:51:07   And you can, you can make these exact same decisions and do them in a better way with more notice, better transitional opportunities or terms, or, you know, just warning or something like there are better ways to do it.

00:51:21   And at every step of the way, Reddit CEO has chosen seemingly the most hostile and worst option for both the company and for him personally.

00:51:31   Like when you look at the dynamic here, you have a large company, Reddit, you know, this billion dollar company that's trying to IPO apparently, that's been around forever.

00:51:42   And, you know, it's a, it's a big thing.

00:51:44   It's a big entity, you know, lots of power, lots of, lots of money behind that.

00:51:49   Going to battle with this one independent app developer, this individual guy, Christian Selig, who's like,

00:51:56   Look at this one, there's like a handful of them that they're doing battle with.

00:51:58   All the people who make the popular third party clients.

00:52:00   Well, yes, that's true.

00:52:02   But in particular, see,

00:52:04   But in particular,

00:52:05   Like he has lobbed personal attacks in public against this, against Christian Selig as a person.

00:52:11   Like he's, he has attacked his integrity.

00:52:13   He's lobbed accusations, like serious accusations.

00:52:16   He did the same thing about the, a couple of the other developers too.

00:52:18   As soon as the other developers popped their heads, whoever does the riff app, he said a bunch of stuff about him that also wasn't true.

00:52:23   So he's an equal opportunity jerk.

00:52:26   But the best part of this though, is that it turns out that Christian in, and you've, you should watch or listen to, I think, did he do it on video?

00:52:35   He did a video, Christian did a video with somebody and he did an episode.

00:52:39   Quinn Nelson, he did an interview.

00:52:39   That's who it was, thank you.

00:52:40   He was also on the talk show recently.

00:52:42   That was the other thing I was going to bring up.

00:52:43   Both of them are excellent.

00:52:44   Quinn did a fantastic job.

00:52:46   Gruber did a fantastic job.

00:52:47   They're both were worth watching, despite the fact that they cover similar territory or listening or whatever.

00:52:51   But the best part is in Canada, my limited understanding is, which is where Christian is based, it is single party consent to record, to record a phone call.

00:52:59   So if Christian says you can record this phone call, you can record that phone call.

00:53:02   And he recorded all these phone calls with Reddit, where they claimed that he did a bunch of really sleazy, Christian did a bunch of really sleazy, gross stuff.

00:53:10   Well, guess what, baby?

00:53:12   He has receipts.

00:53:13   And so he posted little snippets where it clearly debunks these just utter bullshit claims that Reddit is making.

00:53:21   It's just gross.

00:53:22   I don't know how Christian is as kind and upbeat as he is, I guess, hashtag Canada.

00:53:28   But I would be so mad.

00:53:31   I am mad.

00:53:32   And it doesn't even happen to me.

00:53:33   Like I am of the three of us, I am the heaviest user of Reddit and I am at best a light Reddit user.

00:53:38   And I am furious about all this.

00:53:41   And I can't believe how gross Reddit has been through the whole thing.

00:53:44   Yeah.

00:53:44   And if you look at, you know, obviously we're much closer with Apple.

00:53:49   We follow Apple, we comment on all our stuff.

00:53:52   So we've seen over time, there have been many stories in the press about some dispute between Apple and an app developer, often, you know, over maybe some kind of app rejection or something or some kind of terms thing or some kind of alleged problem.

00:54:08   And Apple never punches down.

00:54:13   Apple almost never comments publicly about these reports.

00:54:18   And if they do, they never punch down.

00:54:22   Now I have heard through various back channels occasionally that a version of the story that's in the public is not the full story.

00:54:30   And that Apple actually had good reasons to do what they do.

00:54:35   Like this has happened before.

00:54:37   And yet even in that case, even in the case where a developer is trashing them all over the press and Apple could kind of exonerate themselves in some way by saying something publicly, even then they don't.

00:54:52   Because they are run by adults who, and they're a big company and they know like that would be like punching down and that would not be good for multiple reasons.

00:55:02   And not just the punching down thing, it's bad PR.

00:55:05   Like the way you do it is they're consistent.

00:55:09   And so their consistent wall of not saying anything as much as it frustrates us doesn't allow you to interpret their saying nothing as an admission of guilt or not.

00:55:17   And so again, if you have a third party developer who's lying about Apple saying Apple did this to me and they did that to me and Apple knows for a fact that that's not true, Apple will continue to say nothing because they have nothing to gain by refuting.

00:55:29   Part of it is because they have all the power.

00:55:31   If they don't want your thing in the store, it's not going to be in the store.

00:55:34   Maybe if you're super big and important, like you're epic and you're in a big lawsuit about them, then people get on the witness stand and get deposed for legal proceedings and maybe even Tim Cook would come into public.

00:55:46   But that is like the last resort.

00:55:48   But for an individual dinky developer who wants to lie through their teeth that Apple did this, that and the other thing and Apple knows it's not true, they're never going to say anything because that's called discipline PR.

00:55:56   But the human inclination, of course, is, oh, but I know that's not true and I'm going to go back out.

00:56:00   And whatever toddlers are running Reddit, like cannot resist the urge to do that.

00:56:04   And so they do.

00:56:04   Yeah. And frankly, like, again, I don't follow Reddit.

00:56:08   I don't know anything about Steve Huffman, but the way he has handled this in the PR sense, again, setting aside the business question of whether they should charge for their API and how much they should charge.

00:56:18   And there's a whole other thing with like how they treat moderators, which is horrendous.

00:56:21   Like there's so much there's such a mess on their plate right now entirely of their own doing.

00:56:26   But just seeing how Steve Huffman has handled public comments about situation and about actually lobbying accusations against these individual developers, he is not fit to run a company of that size.

00:56:39   That is it's so grossly unprofessional.

00:56:42   In addition to him clearly being a huge jerk.

00:56:44   I mean, that's obvious.

00:56:45   He's definitely a huge jerk and and definitely I mean, I would say a liar.

00:56:49   Like it's it's hard to candy coat that like when you when you see like he's literally just blatantly lying.

00:56:55   But just his handling of the PR just shows he is totally unqualified and incapable, inappropriate to run a company of that size.

00:57:04   Yeah, yeah, I tend to agree with you.

00:57:06   And the funny thing is, so a lot of I think some of this was just, ooh, let's get angry about something.

00:57:11   But I think it started from a good place.

00:57:13   And a lot of sub-Redits, you know, basically, you know, communities within Reddit decided, oh, we're going to protest all these charges.

00:57:19   And I think that was in no small part because the unpaid labor of Reddit, the moderators of all these communities use these third party apps to continue to moderate these communities.

00:57:28   And this is unpaid work that benefits the communities, but also benefits Reddit.

00:57:32   And and they're the moderators are losing these tools as part of the collateral damage of these decisions.

00:57:38   So they did a lot of Reddit or sub-Redits decided to shut down effectively for a few days.

00:57:45   And I haven't kept my thumb on the pulse as to what ended up coming of that.

00:57:49   But it sounds like nothing.

00:57:50   Yeah, I think then some of them decided to be funny and or snarky.

00:57:55   I think the F1 subreddit decided to mark themselves as not safe for work, which isn't really true.

00:58:01   And they came up with a somewhat cockamamie, but also believable excuse that, oh, racing is dangerous, blah, blah, blah.

00:58:07   But the reason they did that was because Reddit doesn't put advertising on not safe for work sub-Redits.

00:58:11   So now they're they're seemingly cutting off, you know, some of Reddit's revenue.

00:58:16   A lot of these communities are still dark.

00:58:18   They're they're basically not public at all.

00:58:20   You can't really know this if you try to Google for something and get a Reddit result.

00:58:24   Exactly.

00:58:24   It happened to me many, many, many times in the past week.

00:58:26   The cache, Google still has the cache versions of them, but just shows you how many times you don't realize that, you know, one of the results you click on is Reddit.

00:58:33   Exactly.

00:58:34   And so a lot of these sub-Redits are still dark, as far as I know.

00:58:37   And actually breaking news that I noticed literally as we're recording.

00:58:42   So Reddit has come in and basically said, which we did know already, said to some some of these communities, look, if your moderators are going to keep this community dark, we will put in new moderators.

00:58:54   We will ask for volunteers to be new moderators, which I get why they're doing it, but that's super sleazy, super gross.

00:59:00   And so then breaking today.

00:59:01   Also, again, just unwise, like I don't I think one thing that has that has been become very clear with this whole drama is that Reddit thinks they are much more important than their community is.

00:59:15   And the community showed them otherwise.

00:59:17   And by the way, good for them.

00:59:19   Like the amount of the strength of the Reddit community and the Reddit moderators that they've shown during all this is impressive.

00:59:28   Like it is really quite something. And Reddit, the company, I think, was caught totally off guard.

00:59:33   And again, like if they had a capable leader in place, this never would have even gotten to this point.

00:59:38   Again, even if they decided we should charge for our API and this is what we should charge for our API, like they could achieve the same result on not that different of a timeline with the same terms, the same pricing, even with having apps probably shut down.

00:59:57   They could have achieved the same result in such a better way if they just handled it better.

01:00:01   And if they just weren't flaming, you know, flaming the fire at every step they could rather than taking the easy, you know, nicer approach or the better PR approach or just the more mature adult approach.

01:00:12   Yeah, on that topic, in terms of the actual terms of the deal, this is actually something that we've talked about a lot on the show over the years, mostly in the context of Apple. Often I end up comparing it to the gaming industry. But like when we talk about the App Store, right?

01:00:28   And the deposition and what the various people who are on the stand for Apple would say about the App Store and how they view the value proposition. This is a little bit of an epidemic, even among the best companies where there'll be some company that we usually talk about in terms of a platform, like gaming companies have platforms.

01:00:45   So the game console Apple has platforms, right? But also in Reddit, you know, they have a community, a relationship with a bunch of other people or entities that are not the company that forms the whole. So Apple makes a platform, third party developers make apps for it. That forms the whole of the product. You get a phone, Apple puts a bunch of stuff on the phone, you can get third party apps, game consoles, somebody makes them. There are first party games, but they're also third party games. Reddit, they put up a website, they run the servers.

01:01:12   But then it's a system where other people can come in and make communities and run their communities. They're using Reddit software, they're using Reddit server. They're both getting benefits from that thing, right? And the the problem a lot of these big companies have been having lately is the people who are in charge of them have started to miscalculate the what that relationship is really like, always in the same way.

01:01:35   The way they always do it is they think that they are more important than they really are. So if you're Apple, what you think is basically you should just even be lucky that we're letting you put apps on our thing. You know, you your app wouldn't even exist if we didn't make this platform. Therefore, we are clearly entitled to all of money, not all the money, but like a big part of it. And what we're entitled to what we think we're entitled. And if you're going to come here and say that we shouldn't get that much money, you're wrong, because you don't understand the value we're bringing, right?

01:02:05   Not only that, how dare you question our our value? How How dare you think that our customers are your customers? How dare you think that we that you bring anything to this table at all?

01:02:15   Practically speaking, Apple does have all the power, they can just kick you out of the App Store, right? And because they have that power, it starts to convince them that they have more that they are responsible for more of the value than they actually are, whether you think it's they actually are basically what it ends up was the companies that run these things, end up in a situation where their picture of their participation in the value thing stops matching the other people's picture of their participation device. And so Apple thinks it's worth x. And the app developers

01:02:44   thinks Apple is worth x minus two, and they have a disagreement. And as they start to spread from each other, different different conceptions of what the value deal is here, they get farther and farther apart. And that causes tension and unhappiness on both sides, right?

01:02:58   Reddit, Twitter, same type of deal, like you can go through it all, people will list off all the things like well, you know, you wouldn't have a subreddit if Reddit didn't exist, but Reddit wouldn't exist if people didn't add content, and all those moderators are working free and Reddit, that website that nobody uses has nothing no value whatsoever.

01:03:14   And every piece of value that Reddit have is because people went there, but people wouldn't have gone there, Reddit didn't make it and you go back and forth and back and forth. Here's the deal. All all that matters is, is there agreement? Is there some kind of even if it's just like, you know, an agreement where everybody's a little bit dissatisfied between how the value is divided. And this gets to things like, okay, we want to start charging for an API, right? Alright, so you have to come to you have to make sure that when you enter into that thing, that your idea of how much value

01:03:44   that you're providing, and how much value the third parties are providing match each other. And they have to match in all the ways they have to match in sort of like what we feel, but they also have to match in like what we can afford. Like we talked about this with Apple, like the ebook store, right, the the ebook industry publishers, authors, that whole cluster over there that existed before the internet doesn't have room to give 30% of a book sale to Apple. The the percentages of sales for books are like where they go to the author, the publisher, but that's already all divided up, there is not another 30% hanging around.

01:04:14   to give the Apple, Apple doesn't have to pay itself 30% for its iBook store. But if Amazon wanted to sell Kindle books through, you know, according to Apple's rules through the App Store in their app, they would have to give Apple 30%. That's 30% just doesn't exist. So that's why you can't buy Kindle books inside the Kindle app on the thing, Apple refuses to change the rules. But like that, those things aren't compatible, right? So with Reddit, they're saying, okay, we can charge this much for the API. And they're probably thinking,

01:04:45   well, all the app developer has to do is increase the price of its app by the amount that we say. And this is an economic situation. Like they're like, but we don't have that flexibility. If we raise our prices like that the number of people who pay for app will drop to 1% of what it was. And it doesn't really matter what would actually happen. All that matters is what people think would happen. So Apollo is shutting down rather than raising its prices 10 times, right? Because he is calculating whether correctly or incorrectly, that he can't sustain that price. If you charge me this much, and I pass that on to my customers,

01:05:15   my customers are going to flee, and I'm not going to have a business. So I'm preemptively saying that I don't have a viable business. And that shows that Reddit and making this decision of how like the value is going to be apportioned in their community miscalculated, it has produced it has offered something here is our API pricing. And that is not palatable or acceptable or reasonable to the people who make the apps. And if if Reddit wants third party applications, they should have rethought that if they don't want 30 out of third party applications, good job, you did.

01:05:45   You scared them all away.

01:05:46   Well, not even that it's like, like bad jobs. Like, I think clearly they don't want their already applications.

01:05:51   Well, you can do it in a way you're saving face. You're like, we didn't say you're banned, we just set the prices. And if you didn't like the prices, so what?

01:05:57   Like they they executed this so poorly on every level.

01:06:01   But they think they think their API is worth that much. Their calculation was we this is how valuable we think we are previously, we're giving away for free moves, we were so magnanimous. But now when we look at the overall picture of the ecosystem, here's what we think our value is as the API provider, therefore, that's how much we're charging. And you can say whether they're right or wrong about that. They're right or wrongness depends entirely on Well, what does the other side of this thing like, did the third parties agree with you that you're worth that much? If they agreed, they would pay it. But if they disagree, they're not going to pay it.

01:06:31   And you've failed to come to an agreement. And we talked about this with Apple and app developers and game developers, because the game console makers are incredibly evil and cutthroat and draconian and just have like a reputation that would make Apple blush, right? They're not nice to people. They want control of everything. Nintendo used to make you pay them to manufacture your cartridges. You couldn't manufacture themselves, you had to pay Nintendo to do it. And they would charge an arm and a leg. They're just insane deals.

01:06:55   But through all of this, the game consoles always knew that for us to be continuing to be in this industry, we have to make nice with the game helpers. Somehow we can be bitter enemies, but we have to find a way to come to an agreement, whatever that deal is, you'll be a launch thing, we'll make a special version of the Xbox with your game branded on it. You'll be a bundle tie in. If you make this game for us, we'll give you this many millions of extra dollars. Like it's a business, right? And they figure out business deals.

01:07:25   And they and more importantly, they try not to miscalculate what their value is. Can we go to this game company and say, hey, if you want to be in the next PlayStation, not only are we not going to pay you anything, but you have to pay us $100 million. And then we're going to let you put your game there. And they go up, sup, see you later. And suddenly be like, well, we miscalculated, right? What's happening is the people who run these companies, Apple to a lesser degree, because it is sort of a more of a slow motion disaster. But like Twitter and Reddit in particular, Twitter and Reddit in particular, are run by people who massively miscalculate

01:07:55   their value portion of the of the whole, and then act based on that miscalculation with disastrous results, right? Again, it doesn't even matter if they're right or wrong. All that matters is what the other side of this equation thinks if you're right or wrong, because you need to get agreement with them. And this is what frustrates me so much. It's like business 101, right? It doesn't actually matter if your product is worth or not worth this. It only matters if people are willing to buy it. And you could say, oh, it's dumb that they're not willing to buy it. But if they're not willing to buy it, you have to do something different.

01:08:24   And just the Reddit thing, I mean, Elon Musk is just a jerk, who cares, whatever. But the Reddit thing, it seems like they truly believe that if we just hold strong and do strike breaking, we're going to be like Reagan and I'm going to fire all the air traffic controllers. And it's like you're taking the wrong lessons from history, people like, and they're just doubling down on it because they're like, this is how we want it to be. It's like, if you want to have a business with no third party clients, and all the people who traditionally use Reddit scared away, like what I don't know what you're gonna have left after that. But if you wanted to like not totally destroy

01:08:54   the value that you had established in Reddit, you're doing a lousy job of it. And I find it incredibly frustrating. This is slightly different than the, you're gonna have to believe this, the certification thing, which I'll try to find a link for. I think that's subtly different. This is much more of just the simple case of, of thinking you are of misreading the room, as we would say, of thinking that you are your relationship with your third parties in your communities is different than it is. And maybe you don't realize over the years, your opinions have drifted apart.

01:09:22   And maybe this guy became CEO because his pitch to everyone else in the company was like, we've been giving this API way for free. Do you realize how much value we're giving away? We just got to turn on this money spigot and we'll all be rich boys. And they miscalculated. And it's just, and also they're jerking on top of that and everything, right? But like, I still feel like even if they did it in a nice way, one year sun setting period, you know, easy, ease people out, give people some like, people established clients like Apollo would have two years to do

01:09:52   it. And you know, even if they did it the nicest way possible, the bottom line is at the end of that kind of Twitter style, when they, you know, before they killed the API, Twitter before Elon basically stopped allowing third party clients, but allowed existing ones to continue to sell a fixed number of things. Still, they changed the shape of their business, they changed it in a way that was worse for a lot of people and a lot of people didn't like. And that is either an intentional plan that they didn't want a service for people with third party clients, or they didn't realize what they were doing. They thought, oh,

01:10:22   it'll just be like it is now except for we won't have this problem. You know, there'll be no downsides, the upsides will be we don't have to worry about that. And we can show ads to everybody. And there's no downsides. And there absolutely are downsides. And like reds doing the same thing where they feel like we can start changing the API, everything else will be the same. Everybody will love us all reds will have lots of activity, we'll just make more money. And that's not they shouldn't have thought how it's gonna work. That's not how it has worked. And I really just wish all these people with the exception of Elon because no helping him could just sit down and like learn to share like kindergarten style and

01:10:52   learn how like in any kind of relationship or negotiation, you have to come to some kind of consensus or agreement to find a mutually beneficial solution. You can't win by stamping your foot and saying, this is what I want. I'm never changing it. I'm doubling tripling quadrupling down even those aren't things. And if you defy me, I will kick you out replace you with I guess people who want to be moderators in a situation where the company's going to tubes like this very frustrating. And I'm not I'm not ready. You

01:11:22   have you read it user either. But it frustrates me to see people making such obviously bad decisions. And it reminds me a lot of Apple where they miscalculate their value proposition with their third parties. And it has led to like years at this point, we up to a decade of just unfortunate unnecessary tension between Apple and developers where there should be, you know, a more mutually beneficial arrangement where people aren't quite as unhappy as they are right now.

01:11:51   It's just too bad in my limited understanding, or in I might have this wrong. But if if Christian and the other third party developers had time to work with, they might have been able to make this a tenable situation. But the problem is, is that Reddit is going to crank up the fees from, I think, either literally or effectively zero to literally millions of dollars in the span of just a couple weeks.

01:12:18   And, you know, three, four weeks ago, Christian was still accepting, you know, reasonably priced subscriptions for a price point of free. And so now he can't float this literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions, I guess, millions of dollars until he can start ratcheting up the prices on his existing customers.

01:12:40   It's not the customer's fault. They didn't do anything wrong. It's just that Reddit has spontaneously decided to charge, you know, a 10x or whatever, effectively infinite more if it was free, more money. And they didn't give Christian and the other app developers the time to work with that.

01:12:55   And Christian has been pretty clear in any of the communications that I've read or listened to or what have you, that if this was if he was given the time, and if the fees were reasonable, he thinks he could have made this work. But because he was given no time and the fees are astronomical, that's just he has no chance or excuse me, no choice but to basically sunset the app. And so that's actually why we were brought here.

01:13:20   We still he was about the plan for sunsetting the app, because there's multiple problems with how that like, so the main problem is that Reddit gave like a month notice for this massive change. But Apollo, like many apps, sells annual subscriptions. And the way Apple the same problem hit tweetbot and Twitter.

01:13:40   And that's terrific when Twitter cut them off with very little notice, but no notice actually, they just cut them off. So you know, so same problem here, almost as bad as that. At least Christian had a few weeks notice. But anyway, so the problem is, when you buy a subscription from the App Store, you buy a year subscription, Apple will pay that out to the developer in full at their next payment, which is usually about a month, a month and a half away.

01:14:06   So you basically are being paid the in advance for the whole subscription, or at least for all but like one month. If the value of the subscription disappears, Apple has to refund those customers money, they don't have it, it isn't necessarily always a policy choice. There are certain like legal requirements where like in many countries and states, they have to do that.

01:14:26   So in this case, Apple basically has to refund the money and then will, you know, debit the developers account by whatever the value is of any unclaimed refunds. Now, if you explicitly opt out as the customer, then Apple does not need to refund your money. But by default, they will refund your money for that subscription or whatever time is left on it. And that's going to put Christian in the red by hundreds of thousands of dollars.

01:14:54   Yeah, his back of the envelope math says it's a quarter million dollars that he's going to basically owe Apple.

01:15:00   Yeah, and Apple will have to collect it from him like it's they just they kind of have to do this. And so, again, this is why a better way to do this by Reddit would have been give him six months or a year notice. And then then he could like, you know, stop selling those subs immediately, and then figure out do I want to sell a more expensive plan? Or do I want to shut down the app?

01:15:23   Either way, that gives a lot more time to not be on the hook for so many refunds all of a sudden. So anyway, and again, exact same problem happened to tap bots and and and Twitter.

01:15:35   That's why Apple has a plan for this because they basically got to figure out how this is going to be handled with the Twitter clients. And now they're just rerunning that same playbook to the point where I think the like Apollo devs and other are talking to like the developers of the Twitter apps to say, Hey, how did you handle this? And how did it go for you and everything?

01:15:50   Yeah. So two things. Number one, if you have Apollo, and if you have ever paid for for a subscription in Apollo, there's an update that Christian issued today in the App Store right now. Go check and see if you have this latest update. And it will offer you if you have one of these subscriptions active that will be automatically refunded, it will offer you an opt out screen. We suggest you opt out. That's the nice thing to do. And it's it'll help out a developer.

01:16:17   Secondly, as a final farewell, Christian has added this this like wallpaper pack that you know, he's had all these relationships with great designers that have made icons for Apollo over the years. So he you know, these awesome design resources you can buy as like a fun little thing in the app. So I suggest it might help him out. He didn't you know, he didn't ask us to say this, but you know, you know, in this community, I like to think we help each other out. And certainly, you know, we did we did whatever we could for icon factory and tap bots. And I want to do the same thing here, please.

01:16:46   Decline your refund if you have one. And please consider buying the wallpaper pack or the tip jar is still in the app, you can leave you can just it's a simple in app purchase tip jar, those don't have to be refunded. So if you go buy something in the tip jar, whatever amount you feel comfortable with, you know, that could really help a really good developer get out of a really crappy situation. And finally, I would urge Apple to consider either an option or requirement that annual subscriptions are not going to be able to be refunded.

01:17:15   annual subscriptions don't get paid out all at once in advance. Now, you could say that, you know, all of us who are getting paid these annual subs, like, you know, all of our individual businesses and developers out there who are getting paid this, you could argue that we should properly account for that and, you know, account for it, you know, over over the time and say, All right, well, we're going to kind of keep this money in a reserve, and just like, take it out of this reserve and pay ourselves, you know, one month portion at a time for the duration of the subscription or whatever. Yes, you could,

01:17:45   we should be doing that. And I think that's kind of a wake up call for all of us who have annual subs in our apps that Oh, crap, we need to start getting for this. But that's, that's a lot to expect a lot of people to even think of, let alone to do. So ideally, Apple would not pay us anything that has to be refunded. See, what normally happens with App Store payments is the delay between when somebody, you know, buys something in your app or buys your app. And when Apple pays you out, it's like a month and a half, which I believe is long enough.

01:18:15   that they can be reasonably sure they're not going to have to refund it by that point. So they know that whatever money they pay out to developers on that month and a half timescale, if it's not for something longer than that time, like if it's just, you know, for a quick in app purchase, or like a one month or month to month subscription, they know they're not going to have to issue mass refunds for any of that stuff. So that's why I think I think the Twitter thing caught them by surprise that I don't think they even had a mechanism in place to get money back from developers.

01:18:40   Well, I don't know about that. My, my app figures reports are often negative numbers. I mean, obviously, my daily total will be a negative number, because obviously I'm not selling copies of my dinky applications. And sometimes the only thing that happens on a day is someone asks for a refund and then after the negative number, which is not a great feeling, but still, Apple apparently does have a mechanism for that.

01:18:59   Well, but you probably have never had a negative payout. Well, we'll see, you know, give me time. Well, anyway, so the point is, I think I think this caught Apple off guard as well. I think they didn't expect to have to all of a sudden have a way for developers to pay them back a large sum of money. And also, you know, I think I hope that this has kind of woken them up to this being a problem, as they allow purchases that have durations beyond their payout window by a large by a large margin.

01:19:26   And you think about how long the app store has been around, like it's been around since 2008. It's not a new phenomenon. And here in fairly short order, we have multiple instances of this because it's not the type of thing that would normally happen. You normally competently run sort of platforms and communities are run by people who understand, you know, the delicate balance and work to maintain it.

01:19:48   And recently, a bunch of people have not been working to maintain it. And I feel like Apple was caught by surprise because it doesn't seem like it like in any kind of sort of, you know, expected business scenario stuff. This wouldn't happen except for like maybe extenuating circumstances or like a family run business where somebody important dies and people are fighting over it succession style or whatever.

01:20:10   But in general, like the fact that we made it from 2008 until now, without this being a big issue, and then all of a sudden, it I feel like this is an industry's trend. And I want to reiterate the same point I made 50 times people in the chat room were saying, Well, like, oh, you know, he doesn't have to worry, he doesn't have to worry about the Apollo because he could just start charging the new rate and that big refund, he would make that up and new customers anyway. So it's not a big deal. Again, it doesn't actually matter if the API pricing actually is tenable or untenable with no notice.

01:20:39   All that matters is what Christian thinks it is. That's what business deals are like. You can argue all you want with somebody, but if he thinks this is not going to work for his business, and he thinks his only option is to shut down, he's going to shut down and Reddit that is your problem if you thought it was a good idea to have Apollo. If you didn't, then fine, good.

01:20:59   But if you did think it was no amount of arguing to saying Christian could support this, like that's the reality of business only matters what other people think and what you can convince them of. It doesn't matter what the reality is. Maybe this pricing would work perfectly.

01:21:13   And so anyone arguing that he's doing this and he's silly, he should just start charging and he would be fine. You could be totally right, but it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

01:21:21   Also, I would venture to say, chances are Christian knows more about his business than you random commenter do.

01:21:29   Again, I'm not arguing one way or the other. It's just that people always want to argue the point of they think they know and they think that Christian is wrong to do this. And it's like it doesn't actually matter who's right or wrong.

01:21:37   In a business relationship, you have to come to an agreement that you think is mutually beneficial. You may be totally wrong. One or both parties may be totally wrong and it ends up not being mutually beneficial and somebody ends up getting screwed, but they have to think it's okay to agree to it.

01:21:50   My favorite one is Spyglass who licensed the browser engine to Microsoft or Internet Explorer and their deal was they get a percentage of all the sales and then Microsoft gave away Internet Explorer for free.

01:22:03   So whatever their percentage was of zero, they got zero. Microsoft was pretty good at making deals. But the thing is, when they made that deal, they thought it was good. They were wrong, but they made the deal and then it's a signed contract.

01:22:14   Anyway, that's the reality of the world. I do think this trend is worrying, the fact that it's happening a lot more recently.

01:22:21   And I think the reason why this exploded in this way, there's obviously many factors here. A) obviously Reddit is run by jerks and they're apparently trying to IPO or whatever. B) we're in an area of the economy has gotten tougher for tech companies. Money is no longer free to borrow. Everyone is starting to look for returns and look for profitability and everything.

01:22:44   And so in that kind of environment, people start tightening their belts and people start looking for different, you know, hey, where can we, where can we, you know, scrounge up some more money out of our out of whatever our resources are?

01:22:54   Because, you know, maybe we're having trouble hitting our quarterly numbers or whatever, because it's hard economically right now. So you see companies like, hey, whatever we were giving away for free. Yeah, we're gonna stop doing that.

01:23:04   Or, hey, this thing that you pay money for, we're gonna increase the price on that now. You know, because that's just part of what goes on when you have economic conditions like we have right now. And so that, the combination of that along with, you know, Reddit apparently wanted to IPO or whatever, I don't follow that too closely.

01:23:20   And also the trend of increasing use of subscriptions to pay for apps. And I think that all has come together. That's why the App Store hasn't seen this like this, you know, that's why this hasn't come up in all this time. Because 20 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, we didn't have a lot of apps monetizing by paying, you know, 10 bucks a year or whatever, like that wasn't as common of a thing back then, and has become much more common in recent years.

01:23:45   And now you have these, and also, you know, these apps were built on services that at the time that they were built and first used, the services were generally friendly towards the concept of third party apps. That's why many of them have API's.

01:23:59   And then that whole culture has shifted over time and that, you know, very few companies are offering API's anymore. Those that are are very restricted and tend to be like, you can't just make a third party client, you can like, you can add value to our platform, but you can't take any or whatever, you know, so it's much more like that.

01:24:14   Anyway, so all this is to say, please everyone, if you have Apollo, go get it, you know, open it up, get the update, decline your refund if you at all can, and I hope you can, and consider putting some money in the tip jar.

01:24:26   And secondly, I really urge Apple to consider a change to how subscriptions that are longer than a month are paid out.

01:24:34   I would love if Apple would take that accounting burden on themselves at their level and say any subscription that's priced longer than a month, we will dole out your payments in monthly increments.

01:24:45   And whether you have to have an opt out for that for like big companies, if they want to do their own thing, fine, but that should be the default.

01:24:52   The default should be you are paid only one month worth of each subscription every month until it expires, and the bar for that not happening to you should be somewhat burdensome, some kind of paperwork or accounting requirement, or maybe they're required to be a corporation rather than an LLC or individual or something, like some other kind of, you know, paperwork barrier so that developers like me and Christian and Icon Factory and soon possibly Casey

01:25:20   aren't all of a sudden thrust into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt to Apple if something we depend on all of a sudden goes away.

01:25:28   Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. Apple, we pay you between 15 and 30 percent. Earn it. This is why we pay you 15 to 30 percent.

01:25:38   So this attitude is exactly the type of thing that I was describing where Apple has to take this new account because you may be listening to this and disagree with Casey saying that they are earning it or they aren't or whatever, and you may hear Marco saying, well, why don't you just do the counter? Like you said, Marco, you should just do it or whatever. Here's the deal.

01:25:51   If you're Apple and you run the platform, what you have to do the math on is, OK, we know there are people who are individuals selling apps like Christian selling Apollo, like Marco selling Overcast. They're just one person. They're not big companies.

01:26:01   We could ask them to do the accounting on their end. They really should. They really should account for it this way.

01:26:08   They'll make money. They can make money on the float in the meantime.

01:26:11   We could say, hey, you should really do that. But will they do it? And if we think that we can scold them and tell them and have WWDC sessions that teach you how to do basic accounting to spread the money out or whatever, will that actually work? And if it doesn't work and those developers end up shuttering their app, if that's a result Apple doesn't want, what Apple has to say is, look, we know developers could avoid this by acting in a different way.

01:26:35   But if they're not going to act in a different way and we can't convince them to act in a different way and we don't want Overcast to be shuttered or Casey's app to get canned because all of a sudden they start changing for his API, is there something we as Apple could do to help our platform be successful as a whole, like, say, giving out the money a month at a time, which is more annoying for us, although we do get to keep the money on the float like Marco said or whatever, but it has upsides for us.

01:26:58   It is a change on our end that someone looking at this might say, why does Apple have to do that? Why don't you just learn how to count for your stuff? It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong.

01:27:07   It only matters what thing can you do as a platform owner that will lead to more future success and fewer things you don't want to happen.

01:27:13   And if you don't want developers apps to get snuffed out of existence because the platform they were running on did something jerky, if you can do something to make that less likely and you're Apple, you should do it.

01:27:22   And instead of spending all your time saying, we shouldn't have to do that, Marco should just learn how to do basic accounting.

01:27:28   If you want to have that attitude, you better hope that Marco learns to do basic accounting.

01:27:32   But if he doesn't and Marco's app goes away and that's not what you wanted, it's so frustrating.

01:27:38   It's the same thing in politics, same things in relationships. Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

01:27:43   All the arguments I see around the Reddit things are people who just absolutely want to be right and don't care anything about people being happy.

01:27:50   As a final note before we move on, if you are interested in supporting Christian, you can do all the things that Marco was talking about.

01:27:57   But also Christian makes Pixel Pals, which is sort of kind of like a Tamagotchi-ish sort of thing.

01:28:03   And I mean that in a good way. It's pretty slick.

01:28:06   It started as like a little thing in the blank area above, well not blank, you know what I mean.

01:28:11   The kind of no man's land in the area above the Dynamic Island and now it's its own app and it's very cute.

01:28:18   And you can pick up Pixel Pals. We'll put a link to the App Store in the show notes.

01:28:21   And you can check that out as well.

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01:30:17   Thank you so much.

01:30:19   [Music]

01:30:22   Alright, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:30:24   David Hadley writes, "I'm curious what you think about the Framework laptop,

01:30:27   which claims to be a modular, upgradeable, repairable, and e-waste reducing,

01:30:31   in contrast to basically every other laptop on the market.

01:30:33   It looks super interesting and it really appeals to the nerd in me.

01:30:37   The big problem is no macOS.

01:30:39   Is this something that we one day might see Apple do or maybe forced to do by regulators?"

01:30:46   So if you're not following what the Framework laptop is,

01:30:49   it's basically a laptop shell that you plug a bunch of components into.

01:30:55   And you can change the motherboard reasonably easily, certainly a lot more easily than most laptops.

01:31:01   It has a series of ports on the side that whatever port is being exposed to the outside world,

01:31:11   it seems like basically internally all of them are just USB-C devices.

01:31:15   So there's like a USB-C socket on the motherboard that you would plug maybe HDMI, maybe USB-C, maybe one or two USB-As.

01:31:22   And so you can kind of configure these laptops to be whatever you want them to be.

01:31:27   I think this is super cool. I would never in a million years actually want one though,

01:31:32   because it's one of those things where part of what makes a laptop, any laptop, not just an Apple laptop,

01:31:38   but part of what makes a laptop so great and allows them to be thin and light and whatnot

01:31:43   is because there are no affordances for changing those thin light internals.

01:31:48   And I totally get what the Framework laptop is after.

01:31:51   I think it's a very clever idea and it seems, having never handled one, to be implemented well.

01:31:56   But this is fixing problems that I don't personally have.

01:32:00   I think if it ran Mac OS, we might be having a different discussion.

01:32:05   But ultimately there is a cost of modularity.

01:32:10   And it tends to come in bulk and physical complexity.

01:32:16   And so at the same time, there are costs to Apple's current approach of being almost entirely non-modular.

01:32:24   Like a typical modern Apple laptop, you can replace nothing.

01:32:29   You have no options. You can't even do basic service to replace a dead SSD or RAM stick or whatever.

01:32:38   Those things are all out of the question with any modern Apple stuff.

01:32:42   But first of all, I think the market has spoken that largely the market prefers things to be nicer,

01:32:50   pre-made, sealed up, and less service ability over time.

01:32:57   If that means they can get something thinner and lighter and nicer looking and everything like that.

01:33:02   But also, if you were to actually add all the physical complexity to make these things more modular,

01:33:12   I think what you'd end up with is a laptop that nobody buys.

01:33:16   And that's why these tend to be specialty enthusiast products.

01:33:22   And even then, I think they have a hard time competing and lasting very long.

01:33:26   But if I was more in the PC world and not the Mac world, I would consider something like this maybe if I had these kind of needs.

01:33:34   But again, it seems like companies like this give you lots of different options to put together a laptop you don't want.

01:33:44   But ultimately, I'd rather just get the one I do want.

01:33:47   And I think too many people think the same way to let these companies last very long.

01:33:53   I hear you. However, they have an expansion card that's an Ethernet jack or Ethernet port. How nice is that?

01:34:00   And leave aside the fact that it's a bulbous thing like it used to be in our college days that sticks out the side of the laptop.

01:34:06   Does it have an ExaJack connector?

01:34:08   No, I wish it did. I know we've talked about that so many times on the show, but I wish it did.

01:34:12   But it looks kind of gross. But you can have onboard Ethernet.

01:34:16   And I tell you what, if there's one thing I wish my laptop had, and I'm not kidding, I really do wish it had Ethernet.

01:34:21   I understand why it doesn't. I get it. I'm not here to litigate it. I'm just saying I wish I had it.

01:34:26   But you can get a microSD expansion card. You can get DisplayPort. You can get an audio expansion card, which basically looks like a headphone jack.

01:34:33   You can get USB-C, USB-A. There's all sorts of stuff you can plug in here, which again, I love the idea of this.

01:34:41   I agree with what Marco said. You're creating a laptop that no one will ever buy.

01:34:45   Jon, I think I cut you off. What was your opinion on this?

01:34:47   Yeah, the economics of these things are pretty tricky because the reason why it is appealing for customers,

01:34:54   whether they're old folks who remember the way things used to be, or whether they're young people who can just understand the concepts,

01:35:01   is like, "Okay, well I spend a lot of money for the laptop, but if I decide I want to, you know, it doesn't have enough memory, wouldn't it be great if I could add more memory to my existing laptop?"

01:35:10   Instead of buying an entirely new laptop, because adding memory costs less than buying a new laptop.

01:35:15   So that is giving me, by buying your product, I'm getting more value out of it because I'm not forced to buy an entirely new laptop when something about this laptop doesn't satisfy my needs.

01:35:26   Whether it's a lateral move, like swapping these set of ports for that set of ports, or an upgrade, faster CPU, more RAM, whatever, you know, better screen, whatever thing you want to replace.

01:35:36   Me as a customer says, "I like that, I like not having to buy a new laptop." So the product is more valuable to you, right?

01:35:41   To the person selling you the product, though, that's worse for them, because when you buy a new laptop, you give them much more money than if you just upgrade the RAM.

01:35:49   That is assuming you even buy the RAM from them, which is a whole other issue of like, "Hey, can I buy third-party things from this, or can I only buy the proprietary modules from this company?"

01:35:56   But either way, the company says, "Well, okay, but if we can't sell you a new laptop in three years, we're just going to sell you like a, you know, a hundred dollar RAM stick or something?"

01:36:03   That's not good for us, because we have to pay our employees and design the next one of these laptops or whatever.

01:36:08   So the way companies like this square this, and there are lots of companies like this in the world, is if you're going to buy something that basically lasts longer.

01:36:16   In this case, we're saying it lasts longer because you can upgrade it with technology you march us on, but anything.

01:36:20   A blender, a bicycle, you know, whatever. You can buy one that will last you longer, because it's more durable, because it's more modular, both.

01:36:29   It will cost you more money. And the reason it costs you more money is because you're not going to buy another blender from this company, because this one's not going to break in two years.

01:36:38   So they have to get the money from you now, and they're selling you what you agree is a more valuable blender or a more valuable bicycle, because it will last you longer, and you won't have to buy a new bicycle.

01:36:47   And in exchange for the value, you give them more money. And that chases you up the price scale until all of a sudden you're like, "I wanted to get this so I didn't have to buy a new laptop, but now this one costs twice as much as a new MacBook Pro."

01:36:58   I know that isn't true of this framework thing, but I'm just saying, in general, when you make something modular and longer lasting, you're either going to go out of business or you need to charge people more money for it, and you run up against these barriers pretty quickly.

01:37:09   Now, when technology fits with modularity, like when we're using RAMs on sticks, marketers said RAM sticks, there are no RAM sticks at Macs, of course, we all know this, right?

01:37:17   There used to be RAM sticks, even in laptops, little tiny SO DIMMs, right?

01:37:21   When that was already part of the product, because that was the best and only way we had to make the product, it's already modular, and so why not take advantage of that?

01:37:29   Apple used to sell RAM upgrades for their laptops, and used to be able to upgrade the storage or whatever, but as technology marches on, and that is not an inherent part of the product, but you'd have to edit it yourself, companies have to run the experiment.

01:37:41   Hey, if we seal the battery into the bottom of the 17-inch laptop, will people still buy it, or will they be like, hell no, I need to be able to replace the battery, or if I'm on a flight and my battery runs out, I want to swap in a second battery?

01:37:52   Apple ran the experiment with whatever it was, the 17-inch PowerBook, whatever it was.

01:37:56   The answer was, customers were fine with it.

01:37:59   You know, it's more annoying, and they wish they could change the battery, but did they stop buying laptops? No, they did not.

01:38:05   And then soon, that happened to everything else. Same thing with phones, you used to be able to swap the phones in the back of your cell phones, and people love to do, I ran out of battery, I can put a new one in, or whatever.

01:38:11   Cell phones stopped doing that. First, they made it harder to do it, then they just stopped doing it entirely, just like Apple.

01:38:16   Did people stop buying cell phones? Did some company that made a cell phone with a changeable battery, did they come and sweep through the market and dominate? No, they did not.

01:38:25   So people are voting with their wallets and with their feet, and they're saying, "We like the advantages of simplicity, no grit that gets in there, no snapping little shell that keeps coming off, no connector that gets wonky or whatever, to seal the battery in, no I can't replace it, yes it'll eventually go bad, and then I'll buy a new phone."

01:38:45   Customers are choosing that. So the only people who won't choose that are the people who value the longevity and flexibility,

01:38:53   and the only way to make money from those people is to charge a lot, and then you get into a smaller and smaller market.

01:38:58   The only thing that will change this is change in the incentives. One example would be a dystopian sci-fi scenario where we don't have the resources for you to buy a new laptop every three years.

01:39:09   So the only way that we can economically make laptops is to sell you one, and you have to use it for 15 years with every component being modular.

01:39:15   And then all of a sudden the math works out differently, because you can't buy a new laptop every three years because it's not enough beryllium or whatever the hell element ends up running out of in this dystopian sci-fi scenario.

01:39:24   Or we've polluted the planet to the point where there are laws in place. That's what the person says, like regulators make this? No, regulators would never make them do this. We can't even stop global warming.

01:39:32   But anyway, in a hypothetical scenario where the external incentives change, suddenly the value proposition of this product changes entirely because the other thing isn't an option anymore.

01:39:42   But I think what we've learned is when the other thing isn't an option, that's what people prefer. And the only way to stop it is for you and several billion of your friends to stop buying cell phones with sealed-in batteries.

01:39:52   Then they'll get changeable batteries. But if you don't think you can convince people to do that, that's why cell phones don't have changeable batteries.

01:39:58   Zach Brachett writes, "I've started to limit what apps I grant full photo library access to, but it comes at a cost. It's quite annoying to have to manually select new photos to include every time I want to, say, share a recent picture in Slack.

01:40:10   When an app requests permission to access my photo library, what does it actually mean? Does it mean an employee at that company could browse my photos at will? Does it mean the app could scan my library for any information that's in there?

01:40:19   Or is full access less permissive than it seems?"

01:40:22   So it's been a year-ish since I've looked at this closely, but I ran into this for both Peekaview and for Masquerade.

01:40:31   My recollection, which check my work on this because it's fuzzy, is that full photo access basically means that you have mostly unfettered access to the user's photo library.

01:40:43   Now, presumably you would know one way or another if your entire photo library was being uploaded because your internet usage would go up, your phone would probably get hot, etc.

01:40:53   But strictly speaking, that app can look at whatever photo it wants, whenever it wants.

01:40:59   The advantage, though, and it's in most apps best interest not to go that approach, because you have to do a whole bunch of things and ask for permission in very, very scary ways to get full photo access.

01:41:11   Where if you just do the, you know, this app can see these seven photos dance, an app can actually use that technique, and this is what I do in Masquerade, you can ask the system, "I would like one photo, one photo only, please."

01:41:28   And then you don't have to do any of the scary permissions dialogues because you are doing a, what is it, XPC call, a cross process, whatever, call, that basically says to Apple's system, "Look, I don't care what you do or how you do it, just give me a photo back, please."

01:41:43   And then Apple is the one in charge of, like, browsing through your photo library, presenting the whole user interface, and letting you pick which one you want.

01:41:50   And you have, as an app developer, you have no sight into that whatsoever. All you know is you get an image coming out the other end.

01:41:57   And for most apps, that's actually preferred, and I hear what Stephen's saying, that that's kind of a pain in the butt.

01:42:02   I know what Instagram does is the middle of the road thing where, which is what I was describing, where it says, "Okay, you can have access to just these, you know, 12 photos."

01:42:11   But the most convenient thing as an app developer and as a user, in my opinion, is to do that one shot, and again, this is what Masquerade does if you want to check it out, just, "Hey, the user would like a photo, go get me a photo, please."

01:42:23   So that's, honestly, if you have an app that loads users' photos, I would really look into that API because it's pretty good.

01:42:30   But yeah, if you could do full access, that app developer could be super shady and you'd be none the wiser.

01:42:36   I don't know, Marco, you haven't run into this any, have you?

01:42:38   No, I don't really work with photos. I do, so, in the regular photo access, do you get the location info, or does your app have to request location permission?

01:42:46   Because that's, I think the most sensitive data in your photo library that would be the easiest to exploit in creepy ways would be the embedded location history.

01:42:55   Like, because not only would you have a good idea of where their current location probably is, but you would have their entire location history, which is obviously extremely sensitive data that you know would be exploited by ad companies as much as possible.

01:43:09   Yeah, I understand what you're asking, and I don't know, and part of the reason I don't know is because it's never even crossed my mind to look because I'm not a sleazeball.

01:43:16   I would guess that with full access, you almost certainly get that data. Again, just a guess.

01:43:24   I don't know, I'm not really sure what would happen if I were to wager a guess for the other modes.

01:43:31   I would think maybe you do get that location data, but I cannot stress enough that I really don't know.

01:43:37   This reminds me more old man stuff of how far the computer industry has come from the early days of, not naivete, but just like it was so much smaller, so many fewer people even had computers, even before the internet.

01:43:51   Computer security, the things we're just talking about, just didn't exist. Like even in the early Unix systems that were networked across the entire country with universities, you know, Telnet sent your passwords in plain text, TTYs were world-writeable.

01:44:05   Sometimes you could have accounts without passwords and people would do it routinely because it was just the honor system and everyone would just be careful, right? And you just had to trust everybody because everyone was-

01:44:13   That's literally like the first version of Instapaper, you could just set no password, you could just have it be blank and I didn't care and nothing bad happened.

01:44:21   You could do that on Mac OS, I think you could still do it on Mac OS. But the default, everything was open, right? And over the years as the internet has become a thing and as the world has gone on to the internet, everything, the computing platforms added things like this photo permissions that we're talking about.

01:44:34   But it all gets back to the same thing. This question is about what an app could do. If you give it full photo access, that app could upload every single one of your photos to its database, have an AI crawl through it to look for naked pictures of you and do whatever with them.

01:44:48   And obviously, what could you do to stop that? Well, if the country you're in says it's illegal, you could try to prove in a court of law that they did a thing that broke the law and then sue them or get them arrested or whatever.

01:44:58   But you also have to first know that they're doing it because maybe they're doing it behind your back and you have no idea and it all gets down to the same thing back in the olden days, which is you have to trust the person who develops your application.

01:45:07   Because every application, if it does something useful, could also do something nefarious. That is the nature of power. It is easier for it to have access to all your photos, but then you have to trust that the person who makes this app isn't uploading all your photos looking for naked pictures of you or stealing your location data or whatever, right?

01:45:22   And yes, it's good that the OS has these barriers of saying you have to give it permission, maybe give it location permission, allow it to use the camera, allow it to record your screen, allow it to use the microphone.

01:45:32   But you have to say yes to that for lots of apps to do their job. And at that point, you're in exactly the same situation you were in the 60s where people are logging into Unix things and everything's running over the Internet in plain text.

01:45:43   You have to trust the person or company that made this application that it is not doing something nefarious. And that will never go away because in the end, you want it to do useful work for you with your data, so you must give it access to your data.

01:45:57   And we don't want to give it more access than it needs, but sometimes the amount of access that it needs could be used in a terrible manner. And that's why people and companies' reputations matter.

01:46:07   That's why Apple's reputation matters. That's why if a company does something bad, it hurts its reputation and people will trust it less. If Apple was stealing all your photos and doing something, you know, selling your location data to some ad company or whatever, that would make us like and trust Apple less.

01:46:21   And if some, you know, we've had apps in the iOS app store that were like stealing all your contacts, like Path was doing that or something, before it was forbidden by the US, before you had to ask for permission, and people found out about it and they thought less of that application and stopped using it.

01:46:36   And that is, you know, that in the end, that is the system. So yes, lots of people get scared when they realize what this application, quote unquote, could do. But you have to think then, but is the application doing that? And if you think the application is stealing your photos, don't use that app.

01:46:52   Yeah, this is why I used to be pretty cavalier about it for Facebook properties, including Instagram. I immediately went to limited access because I have zero faith that they're not doing something gross. But generally speaking, ever since this became, the whole limited library thing became a thing, I basically have chosen that whenever I can.

01:47:12   Stephen Collins writes, "With all the discussions about cameras the past few weeks, this was written several weeks ago, I was wondering how you carry these cameras around. I realize that most normal people don't need a bag for three cameras, six lenses and other assorted bits like cards and cables.

01:47:25   But I was curious as to how you guys handle all this. I know Jon is taking a bunch of stuff to the beach. Are you all just using the standard one camera bags that I see everywhere and also two of or is it something different?"

01:47:37   For me, this is going to infuriate my co-hosts. I just chuck the camera and the lens in a lens bag.

01:47:44   Just chuck it right into your windshield. You put it on the dashboard.

01:47:47   That's exactly it. That's exactly what I do.

01:47:49   I just sit on mine immediately.

01:47:50   I just chuck it into whatever bag I'm taking to the beach and call it good. And I haven't yet had an issue, knock on wood. What is the correct answer, Jon?

01:47:58   I don't know. I don't have a lot of experience with these things. I've tried to get a bunch of bags that are better than doing what you're doing, which is not hard.

01:48:07   I think I talked about this when I got it on some episode that I'll never be able to find again.

01:48:11   Essentially, it's a backpack for holding camera junk and it comes with a bunch of these little velcro dividers.

01:48:17   If you're looking top down on it, you can make a little maze that exactly fits your cameras and your lenses in some scenario.

01:48:24   It's kind of like, I was going to say like paying Tetris, which people are more familiar with, but it's actually more like the inventory system in Resident Evil 4 or something.

01:48:30   Anyway, finding a way where these things fit in with a little velcro. You think it wouldn't work. You think velcro wouldn't work. You think it's kind of janky.

01:48:36   It works surprisingly well. It's kind of like a cheap version of making a custom bag where you have foam inserts or whatever.

01:48:42   Anyway, I use that instead of an actual backpack. I use this camera backpack.

01:48:46   I endorse it. It could be better, but it's pretty good for the price I paid for it. I put a link to my backpack in the show notes. I think it's called the Hex Ranger or something or other.

01:48:55   I also have this holster thing for a single camera. It's like a single kind of holster style bag where camera and its long lens go into it.

01:49:02   It's kind of like a gun and a holster and it goes like a shoulder strap. That's good for a single camera.

01:49:06   You can put a single camera in there with varying sized lenses because the lens part is like an accordion that gets longer and shorter depending on how big you want it to be.

01:49:13   I have one of those as well and it's pretty okay.

01:49:17   It's like ringing in doors. I mean from John.

01:49:21   You know how many camera bags? Camera bags are like backpacks, like non-camera bags. There's a million of them out there.

01:49:26   Lots of companies make them and it's really just what your personal preference is.

01:49:30   I would say try to find one that you think you'll like. You're probably going to have to make more than one try, unfortunately, because you may think you like something until you get it and you find out you're wrong.

01:49:38   But I would say get something. Something is better than nothing. I would say that the amount of protection that you need is probably less than you think.

01:49:46   When I first got this backpack I was like, "Oh, those little divider things, they don't seem too thick."

01:49:51   And the walls of this, that's just a centimeter of this foam stuff.

01:49:55   First, don't take your backpack and throw it across the room onto the hard floor. Don't drop it from three feet in the air. But if you just treat your thing gently, anything better than the thin single layer of canvas of a Jansport backpack, any amount of padding goes a long way.

01:50:12   Especially if things are packed in there. Again, Tetris or Resident Evil style where there's not a lot of room for them to move and they're all up against something squishy.

01:50:19   That's pretty much all you need. Just be careful with your stuff. But I don't have any specific recommendations for things that I think are amazing. I think these things that I have are better than what I was using before.

01:50:28   And I'm also not looking to replace them. But I'm also not a professional photographer who's constantly running around with my equipment. So if you just want to go on vacation once a year, something like these things will do fine for you.

01:50:38   That's the thing. I've had both "camera" backpacks, similar to what Jon was describing, where you had little inserts that you'd velcro around to wrap around exactly the stuff you used and be exactly the size you wanted.

01:50:51   I've had both that and regular backpacks. I'm currently kind of in the middle of those. My current main backpack is the Peak Design Everyday, which has been around for a few years now.

01:51:01   I have the first version, the large size of it. And I love it. Because one of the reasons why I'm always frustrated with backpacks is that most backpacks you have some number of side pockets, inside pockets, outside pockets.

01:51:15   But there's the main compartment in most backpacks that is just one tall compartment. And what happens is you lay it all out. I'm going to solve this problem.

01:51:25   I'm going to have these different arranged things in here. Maybe I'll have a sub-bag inside my bag. Then you put it on. And as soon as you put it on, all the stuff in the main compartment sinks to the bottom of the main compartment.

01:51:37   Everything is disorganized and then you have all this wasted space up top in this gap and then everything's down below.

01:51:43   What I like about the Peak Design Everyday, I think it's key innovation, is that the main inside compartment of the bag is three of those velcro things that form little shelves that you can move up and down anywhere you want in the bag.

01:51:59   And they have little foldy ends that you can fold up one end of one to make a long vertical compartment if you want to.

01:52:05   But then it has these little velcro shelves at different heights in it. So it actually divides the main compartment height-wise into different levels.

01:52:14   And you can move those around and make them bigger or smaller. So I usually operate with one big top level and then a couple of small ones at the bottom where I can stash stuff.

01:52:22   And I think it was actually designed to be a camera bag and I guess use it as a regular backpack that occasionally holds cameras.

01:52:29   But because it was made to be a camera bag, it is a little thicker and a little more padded and a little more structured than most thin backpacks are.

01:52:38   So I would actually say not only is a camera bag a good option for carrying cameras, I think camera bags are the superior backpacks in general.

01:52:48   Camera backpacks tend to be the best backpacks in my opinion for my preferences and my needs. Maybe it isn't always carrying a camera per se, but it's usually carrying electronics of other kinds.

01:53:02   It's at least carrying a laptop or an iPad or both. It's probably carrying other electronic gear. Maybe it's carrying a little portable game system or something.

01:53:11   Or whatever I'm bringing on whatever trip or carrying for the family or whatever it is. So chances are if you have any kind of electronics that you're carrying in a bag, a camera bag is a good choice because they are made, they are designed to be padded and protective of electronics.

01:53:26   And as John said, you don't need a ton of protection, but it does help to have some. I'm a big fan of using camera bags in general even when they often don't contain a camera.

01:53:37   And again, I can't say enough good things about the Peak Design every day and its system of these movable and removable horizontal, when you're holding up the bag, horizontal shelf pieces that you can divide up the main compartment into.

01:53:52   No other bag that I've ever seen, and I've bought a lot of backpacks over the years, no other bag I've ever seen has kept me happy for as long as this one has and through as many different varied conditions as this one has.

01:54:05   And it's almost entirely down to those wonderful divider shelf things that you can move up and down. That way I don't just have one giant main compartment where everything sinks to the bottom.

01:54:15   So anyway, that being said, when I do carry my camera, to answer Steven's question here, when I do carry my camera, it is in this bag like everything else that I carry everywhere else.

01:54:25   And if you have a big bag or something, you can do it. I think you only need to graduate to the thing that I have with all the little dividers and everything, if you're in my situation where I have two cameras and multiple lenses.

01:54:35   So I have two cameras, both of which have lenses on them, but then there are also multiple other lenses. That's just too much stuff to be rattling around even with multiple compartments. Even with three compartments, there's more than three things, and you don't want to put things next to each other where they can bump into each other.

01:54:47   So that's when you know you've graduated to that. But before I was in that situation where I had two cameras and multiple lenses, I had a single camera bag where my camera would fit in there and the one or two lenses would fit in there.

01:54:56   And I would put that bag inside my boring regular laptop because the single camera bag had padding in it, and the items were packed in there Tetris-style, like with padding between all of them.

01:55:06   And I would close that bag, and I would put that bag inside my backpack. And same thing with the holster thing. The holster thing can fit inside another bag because the holster is somewhat padded or whatever.

01:55:16   So don't run out and buy this backpack that's going to fit all this gear because you put your one lonely camera in there, especially if you don't even have any lenses for it or it's not even an interchangeable lens camera. It's a waste, right?

01:55:25   Even if you have a single big camera like Marco does with a big lens, if you have two or three of them and you have two or three compartments in your Peak Design Everyday Backpack, you're fine.

01:55:35   But once you're like, "Okay, well, alright, whatever, I put this lens and this lens and this lens," then you're into Tetris land, and that's when you have to get that other thing.

01:55:41   So don't run out and buy something that fits way more equipment than you need. You'll know when you can't do it anymore.

01:55:46   But in the meantime, especially if your camera comes with a bag, because a bunch of mine did, if your camera comes with a bag and your camera fits in there with its charger, with its lens, seal that bag up and stick it inside another bag. Bag in a bag. Bag in a bag.

01:55:59   Thank you so much to our sponsor this week, Meh.com, and thank you to our members especially who support us directly. You can join us at ATP.FM/JOIN.

01:56:11   We have a wonderful new member special out where we tier-ranked all the iPhones to date, and it is so much fun. You should really check it out.

01:56:18   Thank you so much again to members. You're helping us out a lot these days. So thank you so much for that, and we will talk to you all next week.

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01:57:02   I SS that's KC less ma rco a are M and t-marco are men si areacing us at

01:57:14   Siroccus John tell me what's going on with your air pods

01:57:30   they did me dirty I don't know what the right phrase is here yikes

01:57:37   you know air pods sometimes you put them in your ears and one of them doesn't

01:57:43   make any sound and then sometimes you got to put that one back in the case for

01:57:46   a few seconds to make it happy have you familiar with this phenomenon yeah I

01:57:50   don't feel like I've run into it too frequently recently but yes I'm familiar

01:57:53   with it oh I have air pods are like the the French chefs of electronics like God

01:58:00   they're so good most of the time but man are they unreliable sorry that's like I

01:58:06   just I cannot like air pot between the last generation air pods Pro and this

01:58:12   generation air pods Pro they are so buggy the new ones are less buggy than

01:58:18   the old ones but they're still really buggy yeah so because they're like you

01:58:22   know their paws like they're the tiny little plastic thing like you don't know

01:58:25   what's going on inside there what is the problem is it a software problem is it a

01:58:28   hardware problem but there's such tiny little components is some tiny little

01:58:31   component like poorly soldered and or like coming loose over time or is it

01:58:35   everything in the hardware is working perfectly and it's actually a software

01:58:38   bug with the stupid Bluetooth stack and the connectivity like you can never tell

01:58:41   there's no way for you to debug this because it's just they're two tiny

01:58:44   little computers in your ears and you don't control anything about them and

01:58:46   it's just like like you know people will ask you if you're a tech nerd in your

01:58:50   life they'll say one of my air I put in my air pods in and one of them's not

01:58:53   making sound what can I do about this and like you have to tell them like

01:58:56   nothing like you can do here are these steps that you can do to make it work

01:59:01   again why did it work again I don't know I've just learned through trial and

01:59:05   error that if you do these things sometimes you can bring them back to

01:59:08   life but sometimes you can't sometimes you got the air pods probably make the

01:59:10   crackling noise sometimes they just flat-out die right it's just a thing

01:59:14   that happens it's not great but air pods are such an important part of my life

01:59:18   that I'm you know I have to have air pods and that leads me to yeah you know

01:59:23   Marisa the other thing that happens sometimes is you'll take them out of the

01:59:26   case you realize one of them just didn't charge in the case for some reason even

01:59:29   though it's been there overnight one of them is oh yes I've had that yeah one of

01:59:32   them is a 2% it goes to do in your ear whatever oh my usually it's just dead

01:59:37   like you take it I like oh why only here you have one ear that's weird and one of

01:59:40   them yeah one's just dead yeah so anyway I have air pods three that I bought but

01:59:45   I think when they first came out and they've been pretty good for me but a

01:59:49   couple days ago I took them out of the case and one of them wasn't making

01:59:52   noise and but the other one was and I remember someone came up to ask me

01:59:57   something just as I put them in and I reached for the right my right ear and I

02:00:01   pinched it with a little pinchy thing and you know it's like that uh it's kind

02:00:04   of like the feeling of walking onto an escalator that's not running you pinch

02:00:07   you pinch the air pod and it's so freaking dead that it doesn't do the

02:00:10   haptic feedback yeah and it feels just so wrong like you pinch it you're like

02:00:14   what the hell when I pinch this I'm supposed to hear a little chick in my

02:00:18   ear and the little hat you know and it doesn't do that that's how dead it was

02:00:22   right and like I'll put it back in the case or whatever charges and you know

02:00:25   whatever go back to what I'm doing try to pick them up because they had to have

02:00:28   my air pods in so I close the pockets while doing dishes and cleaning the

02:00:30   kitchen right obviously it's not like I'm gonna leave them and come back and I

02:00:33   listened in one ear for a while but that's an unsatisfying so we went back

02:00:36   and I'm like and then I'm looking then I'm open up the the Bluetooth thing and

02:00:39   look at the charge level where it shows you is like left ear at 100% right ear

02:00:43   doesn't exist no icon underneath it at all it didn't even show the little

02:00:47   battery icon anyway to shorten this up I spent three days trying to resurrect

02:00:53   this sucker did all the things you do Oh forget this device try a different

02:00:57   device try a different charger try a different air pods case try a different

02:01:00   wire try this try that try hard resetting them try hard resetting the

02:01:04   case try repairing with a different device just like I'm because I have you

02:01:08   know it's not my first rodeo I've messed with their pods before I tried it I

02:01:11   tried it every night they were always on a charger on a different charger making

02:01:15   sure they you know come back to life or resurrect you charge 200% like whatever

02:01:18   your problem is come back to me come back to me three days three days which

02:01:23   both of which involved overnights in a different new ideal charging situation

02:01:28   to really just resurrect this sucker for a good 12 hours overnight right and the

02:01:34   right one was just well and truly dead just nothing like you when you when you

02:01:38   looked in the battery thing it wouldn't even show the little battery icon

02:01:40   underneath it like not a peep from it no noise no sound no haptic feedback

02:01:45   absolutely nothing then I go to the lapel sport app and like are they still

02:01:49   under warranty and of course they're not because I think I just didn't get Apple

02:01:53   Care+ or whatever for them right because I had generally pretty good luck my son

02:01:57   has the same air pods 3 he's on his third pair oh yes his like the first

02:02:02   ones like totally lost base the second one that one of the years went super low

02:02:06   volume and his were all under warranty repairs but like just luck of the draw

02:02:10   and I got unlucky right so I can't not have air pod so I ordered a new pair of

02:02:15   air pods 3 and of course I had to get my name on them because you have too many

02:02:18   freaking air pods in the house I need to know which ones are mine did you get your

02:02:20   me emoji that's so cool when you do that I did not I just got my name I wish it

02:02:24   wasn't all caps but it is oh that's so boring well it's easy to tell and it

02:02:29   makes it less desirable theft target I suppose anyway see I I have my face on

02:02:33   mine that I think that does the same thing yeah a lot of people like you

02:02:39   all those emojis have the same face shape anyway so I ordered new air pods 3

02:02:43   and you know rather they couldn't they didn't come at me I could have got them

02:02:46   immediately I just got into an Apple store I could have had them like that

02:02:48   $9 like you know same day delivery or whatever but you can't do that when you

02:02:51   want the monogram then I did want the monogram so I'm like I'm gonna have to

02:02:55   go with that air pods I pulled out one of the kids old pair of air pods because

02:02:58   the last one my daughter was using like the original air pods and they were

02:03:01   flaking out on her and for like for Christmas she got a new pair right of

02:03:05   air pods 3 but her old ones still work so I was using them in the house okay

02:03:08   so I ordered the new air pods and you know the way didn't that because the

02:03:12   onogram and they're shipping they're on their way as soon as this thing ships

02:03:16   the old air pods start working again of course why did they start working again

02:03:21   I have no idea I did nothing to them I hadn't written them off for dead they

02:03:25   weren't even not a charger for crying out loud they were just sitting in the

02:03:28   case three days I spent doing everything I could think of and just it never was

02:03:32   not a peep the thing gets shipped I pick up the old ones put them in my ear to

02:03:37   see like they get but not they work neat so can you return the monogrammed ones

02:03:42   no so here's what I'm gonna do first I can learn my lesson I put a little

02:03:47   reminder that's gonna go off probably tomorrow buy AppleCare press for you for

02:03:51   your new air pods and like I hope they'll let me do like the annual thing

02:03:55   where it never expires because basically I just honest subscription plan for air

02:03:58   pods I'm I just keep paying Apple and every time they die I'm just gonna bring

02:04:04   them back to the Apple Store and say yep the daddy gonna give me a new pair yep

02:04:07   the daddy can give me a new pair whatever I have to pay to make that

02:04:10   happen if it's a reasonable like annual fee I will pay that I hope that's the

02:04:14   case I don't know the air pods have that thing I know max do max you can either

02:04:18   like you can buy like two years or whatever for a fixed amount or you can

02:04:20   just pay like annually or monthly or whatever the hell it is forever in

02:04:24   hindsight it's probably should I learn that way Mac Pro cuz Mac Pro is now out

02:04:26   of warranty - don't it's out of warranty you know how scary it is to have a

02:04:33   computer this expensive it's out of warranty because I didn't do the thing

02:04:36   where you keep paying forever because it was so friggin expensive for the mac

02:04:38   pro right I just did like the few years the two years or three years whatever it

02:04:42   is and it's up now I'm terrified anyway by the way I cannot see any monthly

02:04:48   option for the AppleCare for air pods Pro yeah but anyway two years is better

02:04:52   than that because like I don't have faith that they're gonna last the two

02:04:54   years and it's a shame and I don't know what the problem is but like and I don't

02:04:58   know why these came back to life so my plan now I guess is to just spread my

02:05:01   usage across these two and one set will be my bedroom air pods and one set will

02:05:06   be my everybody that's not the bedroom air pods and then at least my usage will

02:05:10   be spread out between them I don't know if that will make them both die faster

02:05:13   or will that make them last twice as long but I'm not returning them I'm

02:05:18   disappointed in air pod reliability but this is just you know just an FYI for

02:05:22   air pods I mean maybe looking to third-party ones like Sony and other

02:05:24   companies make other things that go in your ears but I like the Apple ones I

02:05:28   like the integration I like how they feel in my ears I like how they sound I

02:05:31   like the battery life I like pretty much everything about them although I do miss

02:05:34   don't miss the tapping right but reliability has been hit or miss and

02:05:40   I've had air pods continuously since the very first pair and my luck has been

02:05:44   pretty good but my kids luck has not been great so that's where I'm at

02:05:48   double air pods honestly I've been a double air pods Pro person since the

02:05:53   air pods Pro came out because I again I also use them very heavily I use them

02:05:59   every time I leave the house for like a dog walk or something I stopped buying

02:06:03   those big full-size noise cancelling headphones for planes and I use only

02:06:07   air pods pros on planes now and you can't you kind of need two pairs

02:06:11   sometimes to get through a very long flight but I I have to for various

02:06:16   reasons and I basically like one stays in the backpack all the time and one is

02:06:22   like the regular usage one and occasionally the regular usage one I

02:06:25   will have forgotten to charge it and so I'll go to the backpack one for that

02:06:29   dog walk or whatever but I can tell you it's it's kind of a nice life it is

02:06:33   stupid it is unnecessary but it does come in handy sometimes like again maybe

02:06:37   my main ones are dead or what happens sometimes maybe I am you know on I'm on

02:06:43   a trip and one of my other family members forgot their air pods at home I

02:06:47   have spare one I can get I can let them use this one like that that happened you

02:06:50   know this kind of stuff happens so it's not having having an extra pair of air

02:06:55   pods in your life is is not as ridiculous as it sounds and you will

02:07:01   find ways to use it surprising opinion from our code yeah very surprising my

02:07:05   air pods are are never like the battery never runs out of air pots like I am

02:07:09   maybe because I'm just very good about charging things but like I use them so

02:07:13   much it would be as unheard of as me picking up my phone and not realizing

02:07:16   the batteries that just literally never happens so I don't know I don't have

02:07:20   that hole in my life but I do I'm still trying to decide what to do I mean

02:07:23   sitting here at desk I they're in the box I literally haven't opened them but

02:07:26   they have my name on them and I'm not returning them you might be able to

02:07:30   return them you might want to look into it I'm sure I could but I'm just not

02:07:33   going to just like I now it's kind of like cheese graters like I don't need to

02:07:38   have 50 of these but I I had to go for for three days I was without air pods

02:07:43   using my daughter's old janky pair and the new what their pot three do sound

02:07:47   better than the air pods one we said this when they came out they still do

02:07:49   and I didn't like it I just it's an important part of my life like like

02:07:53   Marco said I wear them anytime I'm doing something where I'm just like mine let

02:07:58   you know not my always like walking the dog cleaning the kitchen doing dishes

02:08:02   surprising amount of my time I spent even when doing like workouts and stuff

02:08:05   I have the air pods and I'm listening to like podcasts or music and stuff they're

02:08:09   a really important part of my life and being without them is frustrating and so

02:08:14   one way I can mitigate that is apparently to have more than one pair

02:08:16   yeah I can't tell you like how how much I use air pods and and like how just how

02:08:23   incredibly good like I the regular ones never fit me but the air pods pros for

02:08:28   me great and just how incredibly good of a product the air pods pros pro I guess

02:08:33   how good part they are oh my god I every time this come I'm never gonna stop

02:08:38   singing the praise of this product I I am such a headphone nerd and I have gone

02:08:43   through so many over the years so many like portable headphones Bluetooth

02:08:48   headphones wired portable headphones and the air pods Pro made me forget about all

02:08:54   of them and it made me totally stop looking at any kind of headphone that's

02:08:58   for anything other than at my desk they are just that good they are not only

02:09:02   extremely convenient and practical and small and easy to bring anywhere they

02:09:08   also just sound really good like for their for what they are for their size

02:09:13   for what they are I mean they blow the category out of the water like in in how

02:09:18   good they sound for you know compared to their peers so they are it's just a

02:09:22   fantastic product despite all the bugs and despite that I've also had

02:09:27   occasionally to have to replace one under warranty and it like just despite

02:09:31   all of that we tolerate all that because they're just so good so I when I dropped

02:09:38   off Aaron's car at safe flight for the replacement we had a first thing in the

02:09:43   morning replacement I didn't want to sit down there for the two or three hours it

02:09:46   took them to the to replace the windshield so we dropped it off the

02:09:49   night before and for uninteresting reasons I accidentally left my air pods

02:09:53   Pro in the passenger side like door handle grab area there's like a little

02:09:58   gully there and so I was without for an evening which I could have handled but

02:10:05   like John you know I do the dishes I occasionally go for walks with either

02:10:08   the dog or just as exercise and I didn't want to be without any sort of air pods

02:10:12   so I resurrected my air pods I guess this is maybe two whatever it was the

02:10:18   first time you could get them with a chi charging case I believe so it's not the

02:10:22   air air pods pros the originally air pods or again maybe the second generation

02:10:26   in a chi charging case and I resurrected them and I put them in and I only used

02:10:32   them a couple of times and it was for podcasts and I didn't do any sort of

02:10:34   like real a/b testing or like back-to-back testing I should say but

02:10:39   maybe I just forgot how to get a good fit with the original air pods because

02:10:43   I'm used to the more rubbery tips of the air pods Pro but oh my word did they

02:10:48   sound like garbage compared to the air pods Pro and I should probably had I

02:10:52   known we were gonna talk about this I should have done a test again but they

02:10:56   sounded not great and the air pods Pro like Marco just said and I'm on the

02:11:01   original air pods Pro I really want to get an air pods Pro 2 or whatever they

02:11:06   are you know the ones with the improved ANC and all that and I feel so guilty

02:11:10   about it when I have air pods Pro or whatever one that work just fine right

02:11:16   now now then again I didn't go to California you know this month so maybe

02:11:20   I should maybe I could or should excuse for all for those purchases I absolutely

02:11:26   am I absolutely am you don't want to save it until early next year yeah well

02:11:31   we'll see but nonetheless I I cannot believe how much better the air pods Pro

02:11:37   sound again this could be user error it's maybe that I just didn't have a

02:11:40   good no it's not but it's not so much better the air pods Pro's truly

02:11:46   embarrass many other headphones that are both larger and more expensive than they

02:11:52   are yeah like not it look it's not gonna replace a full-size pair of desktop

02:11:56   wired headphones it's not that good but it is surprised like for little earbuds

02:12:01   that are little wireless things that stick in your ear and have noise

02:12:03   cancellation like they they truly embarrass all of their peers it like

02:12:09   that are directly comparable and then even even headphones above their class

02:12:14   they embarrass many of them as well it's really they're really an incredible

02:12:18   product

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