549: Unauthorized Trash Can


00:00:00   Now everything is suspect at this point. I don't even know what's working.

00:00:03   You know what else is suspect? We went live before we did pre-flight. So now we're going to do a visual pre-flight for the bootleg members. Are you ready?

00:00:08   A visual pre-flight? Why can't we do an audio pre-flight? Everyone please look at the document. Oh my god, I don't know if I have... Okay, yes, carry on.

00:00:15   Alright, so first we're going to do this part. Why can't we do this verbally? Why is this a problem? Because the pre-flight is secret. Marco says that this part is not going to take a long time and I hope so. He's full of it. Because I want this part to be very close to the front of the program and I would like Casey to throw it to me for this part so I can try to get it in and out quick. Then we have our regular... Why don't we reverse those? Why are we not reversing these? Because this leads into this.

00:00:43   No, no, no, slow down. I'm saying why don't we do the... I can't say. Oh, I asked Marco about that while you were off rebooting. That does not belong before the modem sound.

00:00:52   Yeah, and Marco thinks this order is better and he said he'll be short. Okay, anyway. Alright. We had this discussion without you Casey. If you just got to be here for the whole meeting you'll get it.

00:01:01   Oh, kiss my ass, John. God bless. Alright, so then we got all this stuff here, our usual stuff. Notice there is a next week divider so we're not actually going to do all of it.

00:01:11   Then all the way down here we have this. This is the worst content we ever made. This is so bad.

00:01:17   Over here we have this from Marco. Alright, and he can take all the time he wants with that because the only thing we have after it is this from me which actually isn't that long. And if we want to skip it again it's fine. And then we have this.

00:01:28   Wait, I lost it. Where's the this? Yeah, we went back. I scrolled up. I scrolled up. We went back north. If we have to skip this thing from me again it's fine because again it'll keep and then we scroll up and then we have this.

00:01:40   Holy crap. I think I have whiplash. Alright, this is what the people tune in for.

00:01:47   The main part was just the beginning part and sorting this stuff out. Actually, I would have done more pre-flight stuff if we were actually off the air but we aren't.

00:01:56   I drove a box truck.

00:02:00   Cool. Was it a cardboard box that you fashioned into a truck or was it actually a truck in the shape of a box?

00:02:07   It was not that interesting. It was a budget moving truck.

00:02:11   Excellent. And the excuse for that was to relocate belongings I presume?

00:02:16   Yes, typically you use moving trucks to move objects and that was indeed the use here. We are moving. We are selling a house and so we're moving out of it and moving our stuff to a new house.

00:02:29   It is a big ordeal that I'll be going through for some time. This was stage one. This wasn't everything because apparently this is the first time we are selling a house.

00:02:38   The process of selling a house first involves you taking like three quarters of your stuff out of it to stage it to make it look like a total super human lives there who doesn't live the way anybody lives.

00:02:50   So stage one is to get rid of much of your stuff and we'll get to more of that later in the show I think.

00:02:59   Yes, yes we will.

00:03:03   But the gist of it is we rented a budget truck to move a whole bunch of stuff into a storage unit temporarily.

00:03:11   I've never used a storage unit before. That's new to me. The last time I drove a rental truck like this I drove a U-Haul when I moved to Pittsburgh in 2004.

00:03:23   And not since then as far as I know. I can tell you that the rental truck industry has actually not seemingly changed that much since 2004.

00:03:35   The truck back then, just a regular U-Haul, like a 10 or 12 foot truck, not like a separate trailer or anything, just a regular 12 foot box truck.

00:03:44   Back then it was very difficult because not only was the truck itself a horrendous thing that barely moved, but back then, this was in the summer, it didn't have air conditioning.

00:03:55   It didn't even have any kind of input for the radio. So what I did to amuse myself on, I had to drive it on like a four hour drive, so what I did to amuse myself was I put my PowerBook G4 on the passenger seat, just open, and just blasted music from iTunes as loud as it would go.

00:04:14   From those high quality speakers.

00:04:16   Yeah, on the built in speakers on the PowerBook G4. Although to be honest, man, so when I was done with that computer I had to sell it to fund my core duo MacBook and I wish I didn't sell it because it was in pristine condition.

00:04:31   It was my first Mac. I wish I still had it today. I mean, it couldn't have worked.

00:04:36   Maybe I should send you some junk from my house because I have that same Mac and it's in pristine condition. Well, kind of pristine. I think I upgraded the hard drive on it myself so there may be a little bit of entry damage.

00:04:46   Alright, we'll negotiate that later. But anyway, so the new moving truck that I rented this week, it is significantly upgraded in the sense that they now come with air conditioning.

00:04:59   They still lack power locks and power windows, which basically means, well, you just can't roll down the right side window because you can't reach it.

00:05:08   The lack of power locks is certainly interesting. Like when you have to go in and get gas, you better be able to lock it.

00:05:16   Then you have to lock it by putting a key in it and turning it. There's not even a key fob with a remote. You have to actually insert the key into the door and turn it to lock it.

00:05:25   Which is not difficult. It's just something I haven't had to do in a very long time because key fobs have been a thing for quite some time now.

00:05:33   My favorite thing about driving this box truck is that it had a rear view mirror. I don't entirely know why because it was looking at the box.

00:05:43   Yes, it's just looking at the back of the passenger compartment, the solid wall. So I don't know why it had a rear view mirror, but it did.

00:05:53   The radio still today had no inputs, no cassette deck. It was just a radio. It had a menu button, but I was like, "Maybe they snuck some Bluetooth in here."

00:06:04   Nope, no Bluetooth. Nothing. There was a USB port in the dash, but it was dead.

00:06:09   My only entertainment method, because I wasn't prepared. If I had advance notice that I was going to be doing this by a long way and I actually planned for it,

00:06:18   I would have gotten a vent mount for my phone and maybe an FM transmitter for the radio. I had neither of those things.

00:06:26   So I just put the phone in the cup holder and had the wonderful experience of trying to echo the sound out of the cup holder so it amplifies. We've all done this.

00:06:37   Why not use a single AirPod or something?

00:06:40   I've always been told that you shouldn't wear headphones while driving. Some people even say it's illegal. I'm not sure if that's true or where that might be true.

00:06:48   When I'm driving this giant vehicle that I'm not familiar with, I didn't want to have any risk of not hearing a horn or something like that as I accidentally emerged into somebody.

00:06:57   The reason I brought this to the show is briefly, first of all, just to mention, trucks are hard. Driving a truck is hard.

00:07:08   It was no easier than it was back in 2004. It just had air conditioning this time. It also smelled no better.

00:07:16   Of course.

00:07:17   You've all smelled this before. It's the smell of a really old car that hasn't been cleaned that well throughout its life.

00:07:27   It's hard to describe. It's the smell of old car upholstery. It's not smoke per se, but it's fast food and farts. It's weird.

00:07:41   I just stunk like that the rest of the day. I had to wash all those clothes, everything, right off when I was done.

00:07:48   Anyway, driving a truck is hard. One of the things that makes driving a truck hard is that there's a lot of roads that trucks aren't allowed on or won't fit on.

00:07:57   In New York, around here, there's tons of parkways. New York parkways don't allow trucks. The way to get almost anywhere involves a parkway at some point.

00:08:09   One of the key advances that I've had since 2004 is now we have cell phones. Instead of having my power book on the seat, now I have my phone in the cup holder to play music that way, which sounds about as good.

00:08:25   But now we have GPS apps. That's great. To try to get from anywhere in the New York metro area to anywhere else in the New York metro area without GPS apps that are somewhat traffic aware is not fun.

00:08:37   But I knew from experience driving the RV a couple years ago, I can't just use Waze or Apple Maps or Google Maps because they don't have any options as far as I can tell to only ride on roads that trucks are allowed on.

00:08:52   So not to ride on any New York parkways and things like that. GPS apps seem to not cover this well. At least all the mainstream apps. I looked in Google Maps, I looked in Apple Maps, I looked in Waze.

00:09:02   If anybody knows, please write in. I couldn't find any options to give me a truck-allowed route in any of the mainstream apps.

00:09:12   You should find out what apps the truckers use because surely it's useful knowledge to them, right?

00:09:16   I asked Mr. Budget, the guy at the budget pickup place, I asked Mr. Budget, "Do you know of any GPS apps on the phone that will give me a truck route?" And he suggested this app called Truck Map. Great. So I download Truck Map.

00:09:33   Between Truck Map and the other app I tried, which I'll get to in a second, this was a series of total failures of app review to the point where if you've ever been rejected by app review, this is going to make you mad.

00:09:47   Oh great, I'm so excited. So, Truck Map, and it seemed to have a lot of use, a lot of ratings. For no reason that I could tell, it requires your phone number just to use the app at all. I don't know why, I had to give it my phone number to do anything.

00:10:06   There is no obvious functionality that seems to justify needing a phone number, but I had to give it a verified, like it verified it with the SMS and everything, verified a phone number. Okay, so they're going to spam me forever. Great, thanks a lot.

00:10:18   So I drove from the Budget Pickup Place back to house number one using Truck Map. And this was a wonderful app in terms of it did pick truck safe routes, except that it would say, for instance, "Turn right onto whatever in four miles and then never say it again."

00:10:39   Nice.

00:10:41   As you're approaching the turn that it told you about five minutes ago, it doesn't tell you, "Turn right." It will never tell you that direction again. So you just have to be watching it, I guess, which is not super safe, especially in a truck that you've never driven and you aren't a truck driver.

00:10:57   I've recently switched to not having the voice on. Like this past year, I haven't had the voice on on my GPS. And obviously that doesn't tell you ever to turn. And it's a different style of driving, but it's the same type of thing. You say, "Okay, I have to turn right coming up in like three miles." And you mostly just like, I glanced back at it to see that I am at where I think I'm at, but it never speaks to you. Did it not show you like the road and like where you are relative to it?

00:11:19   It did, but it was in a cup holder way down there, not in my field of view anywhere. So I kind of need the voice thing. So anyway.

00:11:25   Well, I mean, what you need to know is the name of the road. And you know, back in the day, we didn't have GPS and we just drive by looking at a hackster and then you get in the car and go.

00:11:32   I know, but now I'm spoiled. Okay.

00:11:34   Yeah, exactly. So really quick, since we've distracted you from this story that you promised was going to be short and is nothing of the matter. So what are the parkways nearby? So it's Sawmill, the Hutch. What other ones are in your...

00:11:46   Northern State, Southern State.

00:11:48   Yeah, the Cross County, the Cross Island.

00:11:50   So none of those are permissible for your budget truck?

00:11:53   Basically there are, like to get from Westchester to Long Island, I would normally go on at least two and possibly up to four parkways. So anyway, so truck map that required my phone number, bad. Very, very bad.

00:12:08   So then I was, so when I was, after I had loaded the truck and I was about to do like the big drive, the big like, you know, two and a half hour drive, I thought, all right, before I start this giant drive, let me get a better app.

00:12:17   So I looked around the app store and the one that seemed like the more popular one was called Trucker Path. So I was like, great.

00:12:25   This didn't tell me, you know, before downloading that, oh, it says it uses, it does truck GPS, but what it actually does is regular GPS and only does truck paths if you have an in-app purchase. Okay, well, fine, whatever.

00:12:38   The purchase to get the truck route...

00:12:41   Is hundreds of dollars.

00:12:42   Yeah, it prominently advertised. It was $20 a month. The UI had the big $20 a month price. So you go hit subscribe, you start the free trial, thank God, shut the free trial. And if you don't look too closely, you might miss the fact...

00:12:56   Build annually?

00:12:57   Yes, build annually. It's actually a $250 annual subscription that would start in one week.

00:13:02   Oh, my word.

00:13:04   Hey, at least I had a one week free trial.

00:13:06   Yeah, thank God. So I did cancel it before the week was up, thank God. As soon as I saw that, I'm like, oh, add a note to reminders right now.

00:13:14   And anyway, my favorite part, so we have misleading pricing in the purchase screen. Then after the in-app purchase is completed, so after you have either purchased it or signed up for the trial, so you're in now, it puts up a modal screen that you cannot pass until you give them an email address that it verifies.

00:13:32   Oh, my word.

00:13:33   Where is App Review on this? App Review gives us so much crap for such little things in the apps. Meanwhile, here's this app that's used by what appeared to be hundreds of thousands of people. It has a misleading IAP pricing screen, pretty severely misleading.

00:13:47   And then after the IAP, it forces you to give an email address with no way to proceed until you do. And by that point, you're committed, you've already purchased it. But you can't actually use your purchase until you give them an email address.

00:13:58   Like, where is App Review? Is anybody at App Review? Does anybody work? Anyway.

00:14:04   Those screens don't appear when it's in App Review.

00:14:06   That wouldn't surprise me, actually.

00:14:08   Yeah. Common practice, Marco. I don't know why you don't do it. It'll load this SDK into your app and it'll detect when it's in an App Review testing center and it will disable all those screens.

00:14:17   So anyway, this is the app that I was taking the big drive with. I'm like, it can't be worse than Truck Map, you know, because I need these voice directions to work because I can't look at my phone constantly in a cup holder. So I get on the road with this app.

00:14:29   Now, it had told me the first direction was whatever direction the truck was currently pointed in, you know, turn right on the next street.

00:14:37   Well, when I left my driveway, I went the other way because the way it was telling me to go would have been down a very steep hill that I was not going to take an unknown old truck on.

00:14:47   So I went the other direction out the block. It's like half a block out of the way. I'm getting on the road, you know, I saw what highway it was taking me to, so I was kind of just navigating myself to the highway and I realized it hasn't told me anything recently.

00:14:58   Huh, what's going on? And I looked down at the cup holder phone and it is still showing the first direction that I didn't take.

00:15:05   Oh, gosh. It never rerouted?

00:15:07   It never rerouted and never moved on.

00:15:09   Cool.

00:15:10   So it's saying turn right on street that's like, that's now at this point like 10 miles behind me. I'm on the highway at this point and I'm like, oh my God, I don't know where to go.

00:15:19   Unless I just keep following the line, which I can't keep looking at in the cup holder, I'm stuck.

00:15:24   So I eventually had to like pull off into one of those gas station things that's like attached to the highway, not a rest stop, you know, in New York you don't have room for that.

00:15:31   It's like basically a gas station where the driveways just are the highway.

00:15:36   It's right, you know, a little bit off the highway by about 10 feet.

00:15:40   And so I had to pull into one of those where the truck would actually fit and, you know, reset the app to, you know, take it out, force quit it, go back in.

00:15:49   There's a whole thing.

00:15:51   Eventually, once I did that and then I followed its directions perfectly, then Trucker Path worked.

00:15:56   So in case you want to pay $250 a year, that's the quality app that you get.

00:16:02   And so for this and many reasons, driving a truck is hard.

00:16:06   So and even like the truck safe routes that you have to take are the worst routes to get to anywhere you want to be.

00:16:14   Because you can only like because, you know, when you were in here, like a third or a half of the highways you aren't allowed to take.

00:16:19   So you're only on like the most crowded highways that are full of trucks.

00:16:24   If you're a truck driver in the New York metro area, I salute you.

00:16:27   It was it's not easy.

00:16:29   And, you know, people are like zipping all around me like being real jerks.

00:16:33   Like it was you have to take all these like indirect routes, detours you got to take.

00:16:38   Of course, you know, merging is really hard.

00:16:40   There's all these like right side merges you have to do, which is super not easy in especially in these crappy trucks with no visibility.

00:16:46   There are so many places like I really had to go to the bathroom.

00:16:48   But a lot of like a lot of the places that you are that it's easy to stop like these little like side rest area things.

00:16:54   A lot of them in this area are too small for trucks and therefore don't allow trucks.

00:16:59   Like I passed the Long Island Welcome Center, which is funny because it's like the middle of Long Island and no trucks exist.

00:17:05   A little tiny lot like. So, yeah, driving a truck is hard.

00:17:08   If you are driving, please, first of all, be nice to truck drivers.

00:17:13   Give them a break. Let them in, et cetera.

00:17:15   Like be nice. Driving a truck is difficult.

00:17:18   And second of all, if you see a U-Haul or a budget or other kind of like rental truck on the road, stay far away from it because chances are they can't see you.

00:17:30   Also, those people have probably never driven a truck before.

00:17:33   Anyway, this is this is a ripe market for disruption.

00:17:37   Make this easier with with GPS apps or like Apple Maps, Google Maps, Waze, add a truck option.

00:17:44   Frankly, I'm shocked. I figured at least Waze would, but I couldn't find anything like that in any of these apps.

00:17:50   If Apple was based in New York, it would know about the parkways, but they're not.

00:17:54   So it doesn't. I'm not sure that they would. I hear what you're saying, but I don't know if that's really true because I don't know.

00:18:01   I mean, they have avoid tolls like they are. Every app has avoid tolls.

00:18:04   Yeah, but that's table stakes. That's why.

00:18:06   Well, is it because they have toll roads in California?

00:18:08   Well, I guess you're right.

00:18:10   Actually, I don't even know if they have toll roads in California. If you live in California, please don't tell me you don't have toll roads.

00:18:13   I don't want to know. Have fun paying your eight hundred dollars a year for your LLC as opposed to the bargain five hundred dollars that I pay.

00:18:19   Yeah, right. Great bargain.

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00:20:22   [Music]

00:20:25   Jon, you've been doing a bunch of homework, which I think is OK now.

00:20:30   We really never renegotiated that, but you've been doing a bunch of homework. Tell me about this, please.

00:20:34   So last episode, we talked in the after show about membership and the ad landscape and podcasts.

00:20:40   And we asked for feedback. We got tons of feedback. Thanks to everybody who sent us feedback.

00:20:44   But as we mentioned on the last episode, we also wanted to try to get like more structured feedback and hopefully for many more people,

00:20:50   because we got a lot of feedback. But, you know, people who choose to email us or to date us or whatever are a smaller number compared to the vast number of listeners.

00:20:57   So as we said, we would we have a survey for people to fill out.

00:21:01   The survey is for every single person who can hear my voice. Doesn't matter what your membership status is or was or anything.

00:21:07   If you're a listener to this program, we want you to fill out the survey. Try to make it short.

00:21:11   There's a couple of different paths through it, depending on what your answers are.

00:21:14   But I don't think the longest path, I think, is 10 questions or fewer.

00:21:17   Maybe they're all multiple choice except for the optional ones.

00:21:21   So if you just want to click a bunch of buttons and don't want to fill in any text fields, that's fine.

00:21:24   If you do want to enter stuff in text fields, there are a couple of questions like that.

00:21:27   The URL is the same as always. ATP.FM/survey. We will link it in the show notes.

00:21:33   That's where you want to go. Hopefully we'll get enough responses that this is the only time we'll need to mention it.

00:21:38   But if not enough people respond for us to feel like we have a significant sample, we'll mention it next week.

00:21:45   Indeed. So yeah, just to repeat, whether or not you're a member, if you're a current member, a lapsed member, a never member,

00:21:51   all of you are welcome to please check it out.

00:21:54   It would help us to understand what you folks want from us and what's best for membership and so on.

00:22:00   So it is very quick. I have taken every permutation of this, both in the sense of every draft and also I have clicked my way,

00:22:08   choose your own adventure style, to every permutation of the final version.

00:22:12   It should only take you a couple of minutes. It's very, very quick. So please check it out.

00:22:16   Yeah, the key things that are really worth hearing about, and we got a lot of this from the email,

00:22:20   but this is a larger, more structured way to get it. The key thing we want to know is basically what's important to you and what's not.

00:22:27   That's really the major conclusions here. Because we can guess. We can say, oh, maybe we should do more X or maybe we should adjust Y.

00:22:33   But it's hard for us to know what's important to a lot of people and what's not important to a lot of people. So anyway.

00:22:39   And it's dangerous to rely on the people who message us because their opinions are certainly valid, but we don't know if they're representative.

00:22:45   You know what I mean? Because the people who respond to us on a show depends a lot on what we say on the show.

00:22:49   So if we say something on the show, we'll get responses that are related to what we said, but don't necessarily reflect what everyone is thinking.

00:22:57   You know, like if we talk a lot about like white miso paste, we're not going to get a lot of responses about garlic because people are going to be like,

00:23:03   oh, here's what's good about miso paste. Here's what's bad about miso paste. Right.

00:23:06   It's like, I guess our audience loves miso paste and hates garlic. You can't make that conclusion because we talked about white miso paste.

00:23:11   Why am I thinking of this? Because I was cleaning out the fridge. Anyway.

00:23:14   So that's why we want to do a survey. We hope just everybody takes a survey. Like whoever you are. Click, click, click, click, click. Ten questions. You'll be done. Please take it.

00:23:21   Can we do some follow up about the survey, please?

00:23:24   Right now? Yes. The one we just announced? People haven't even filled it out yet.

00:23:28   Well, some people in the chat room are filling it out and somebody who shall remain nameless had the same complaint that Marco and I did.

00:23:34   Would you like to address this? This person said the none of these options, none of these options option should be at the bottom.

00:23:41   I believe in will HBR in the chat room. I believe that person could figure it out on his own while I say something else about the survey.

00:23:47   So the clock starts seven seconds from now. Will HBR tell me why it's not at the bottom?

00:23:53   OK, well, the one thing I will say about the survey is there is one question that that says which one of these things on its own would make you become an ATP member?

00:24:01   Obviously, you don't see this if you're already a member, but if people aren't members, they get this question presented.

00:24:06   And I tried to bold and italic the important part, which is which one of these things on its own and their checkboxes so you can select multiple.

00:24:13   So it's like we give you a million dollars if we show you a cute puppy. Right. Are those options on the table?

00:24:18   Yeah. So you check the box if one of those line items all by itself with nothing else would convince you to become a member.

00:24:27   So don't check three of them and say, if you did these three, I would become a member. I tried to word it as clearly as I could.

00:24:31   We're trying to condense it so there aren't a million questions. So there's just that one question.

00:24:35   But the part that's in bold and italic, which part on its own would make you become a member?

00:24:40   Anyway, checking back in with will HBR from the chat room could not work it out on his own.

00:24:46   Anyone else in the chat room going once, going twice. The options are randomized because we don't want people to be, you know, to be influenced by the order that we put the multiple options.

00:24:56   Google Forms has a way that says, hey, do you want me to randomize these options? But of course, it also randomizes the none of the above.

00:25:02   So I apologize for none of the above being mixed in, but I felt it was more important to randomize the options so we didn't bias people.

00:25:08   So every time you get one of those questions with multiple options, they're in a random order for you. I apologize for none of the above sometimes being in the middle.

00:25:15   All right. Thank you for that. And then finally, in our announcement section, we have a new member special.

00:25:22   So we had an incredible fortuitous bit of timing wherein we totally decided on purpose, and it definitely was not accidental, to rank or do a tier list of every iMac.

00:25:34   And we have this member special that was released, I think, yesterday as we record. It is available to any current member and any future member.

00:25:44   That's true. Thank you. Thank you for that clarification. So, yeah, I encourage you to check it out.

00:25:48   It started with John and I getting in a fight, so, you know, it'll be good.

00:25:51   It's shocking that, you know, the three of us don't always agree on everything.

00:25:55   All right. So with that in mind, let's start with some follow up and let me check my notes.

00:26:00   What's the clip? Oh, we have we have notes and follow up about the iMac tier list.

00:26:05   Spoiler alert if you haven't listened yet.

00:26:07   So the the key thing here is that there was a point in the iMac tier list where we had to discuss the 2006 when they when they first went to Intel.

00:26:17   The first batch of Intel Macs had the core duo CPUs.

00:26:21   And then within a fairly short time, I think like seven or eight months, they upgraded to the core to duo in this part of the show.

00:26:29   I'll spoil it for people here briefly. In this part of the show, John expressed feelings that the core to duo was significantly better than the core duo.

00:26:39   And Casey and I had basically said it was a little better.

00:26:42   It wasn't a ton better. And so we have some follow up to that effect. Right.

00:26:47   So Michael Gabriel writes the court core used the 32 bit mobile only Yona CPUs, which is a descendant of the Pentium M.

00:26:56   Pentium M. M. M. That's the important one.

00:27:00   It's the Pentium M like totally flipped Intel on its head like it was it was way better than the dumb net burst stuff they were making before that.

00:27:08   And that's basically what saved their CPU business.

00:27:12   And then the core to marked the transition of Intel desktop from net burst, as you mentioned, which is a Pentium four and D scaling up Yona for desktops and adding 64 bit to it.

00:27:22   The X 86 64 migration meant that more meant more than greater than four gigs of memory.

00:27:27   MD used 64 bit to add registers, improve floating point vector processing, etc. Intel was forced to follow.

00:27:33   Big performance boost was available to 64 bit software on X 86, all unavailable to core one Max, the only non 64 bit Intel Max ever.

00:27:42   Yes. And that all sounds really good. Yes.

00:27:45   Core two was 64 bit and core was not.

00:27:48   But see, to me, this was this was a kind of marketing jujitsu here.

00:27:52   A lot of people thought that a lot of people kind of missed the word duo and they thought core duo after core to do came out.

00:28:00   They assumed core duo only had one core and the core to duos were dual core.

00:28:05   And that was not the case. The core to do sounds like it could be twice as good as core duo.

00:28:09   It wasn't. And in fact, you can go fortunately, the wonderful site, every Mac, which I'm sure all of us are familiar with being Apple nerds, every Mac has benchmark histories for all these Macs they list.

00:28:19   And so we can see now modern version of Geek Bench, modern versions of Geek Bench are 64 bit only.

00:28:24   So they were never run on this computer. But you can go look at like the old Geek Bench to 32 bit scores and you can see actually the core duo versus core to duo at the same clock speed.

00:28:38   The core to duo is only about four percent faster in Geek Bench.

00:28:42   They both have the same Max RAM of two gigs because this is back when when the standard amount of RAM was like 512.

00:28:50   So the idea that they would support more than four gigs of memory in theory, that's great, but they didn't need it yet.

00:28:55   And the motherboards couldn't support that anyway. So every Mac actually published a whole article.

00:28:59   How much faster is the core to duo than the core duo?

00:29:02   And they said, quote, the core to do a processor design is modestly more efficient than the core duo processor that it replaced.

00:29:10   And they even quoted a section of a Mac world review that has that since now at four fours, because it's ancient URL.

00:29:18   Mac ran their speedmark benchmark and they said the core duo scored 210.

00:29:24   The core to duo scored 232. So 10 percent faster. But that was at an eight percent faster clock speed, too.

00:29:31   So when you actually compare the core to do to the core duo.

00:29:36   Yes, 64 bit software compatibility mattered way, way, way down the line.

00:29:41   But at the time they were released, this was not a huge difference.

00:29:44   It was it was like, you know, a spec bump, basically. It was between five and 10 percent faster on most things.

00:29:52   And much of the speed increase was due to the fact that the core to duo, because it was newer, it was available in higher clock speeds eventually.

00:30:01   So that was more relevant to the to the performance gains than than the actual core design.

00:30:08   In other words, I was right.

00:30:09   Your complaint, though, now, your complaint was that I was saying like the core to duo is way better.

00:30:13   Because why you'd feel so bad getting the core duo, the only 32 bit Intel Macs, if less than a year later, you get a core to do over 64 bit.

00:30:21   I think that's a big deal, not because Mac OS 10 or something is something going to drop 32 bit support, because that happened way later.

00:30:27   But because, as Michael wrote in to tell us, software that's recompiled in 64 bit goes way faster.

00:30:33   I don't even know if these benchmarks were compiled for 64 bit for the core to duo.

00:30:37   That's the whole point, that it's not just like, oh, it's 64 bits.

00:30:40   You can get bigger integers or whatever. It's substantially changed architecture.

00:30:43   X86 64 is different, more registers.

00:30:45   Oh, yeah.

00:30:46   Better vector things, right?

00:30:47   But I don't know if the benchmarks you're citing here even in 64.

00:30:50   But even if they are comparing clock for clock, who cares?

00:30:52   The whole point is you feel bad because you got the iMac with the bad processor.

00:30:55   You're not when you get the core to duo, you don't care that the other one is even if it was equally fast clock for clock and yours is clock tire.

00:31:01   The whole point is you bought a loser machine less than a year later.

00:31:05   A much better one came out for basically the same price and you're stuck in this little area all by yourself with 32 bit.

00:31:11   I still say core duo is much worse.

00:31:14   And I even forgotten about the 64 bit things.

00:31:16   And by the way, that same article you cited from every Mac, the very last line of the article is,

00:31:20   "Ultimately, 10 to 20 percent faster may not be quite as high as Apple's grandiose claims, but still substantial nevertheless."

00:31:27   So you just quoted the line that said, "Modestly more efficient," and they say, "Substantial nevertheless, 10 to 20 percent."

00:31:32   The core duo, you wanted that one, not the core duo.

00:31:35   Well, but see, to me, it's a similar level of performance increase as going from M1 to M2.

00:31:40   The fact is, the M1 is really, I'm using the M1 now.

00:31:44   But we don't know it's the same performance increase because we don't know if these benchmarks were running 64 bit on the core duo.

00:31:49   If they weren't, it's not a fair or representative comparison because things went 64 bit pretty fast.

00:31:53   You know why? Because this was literally the only 32 bit Intel's ever made.

00:31:57   Everything else was 64 bit Intel.

00:31:58   And so software was recompopulating 64 bit Intel, and it got faster.

00:32:02   And I bet this benchmark did too.

00:32:03   Anyway, I would say that my point stands, and Casey, I believe, agrees.

00:32:08   The core two duo, yes, it was better, but it wasn't massively better.

00:32:12   But my point still stands.

00:32:14   If you got the core duo and then seven months later your friend got the core two duo, you felt like you got the loser Mac.

00:32:19   No, nobody cared except you.

00:32:21   I don't know.

00:32:23   People who lived through it, Marco says he loved his core duo and thought it was great, but maybe he's just like...

00:32:27   It was!

00:32:28   He really loved his Saturn too, so... and his Sega.

00:32:31   What was your memoir, John?

00:32:33   No, not everyone cares but me, but I really care something like that.

00:32:36   I butchered it, but it's something I'll listen to.

00:32:38   You're close, you're close.

00:32:39   Nobody else cares but me, but I do care.

00:32:42   There it is.

00:32:43   I don't think it was a... was it a memoir or was it like an autobiography?

00:32:46   Maybe, I don't know.

00:32:47   I didn't make up the joke art, so I don't know.

00:32:49   Yeah, we need Merlin, but that's alright.

00:32:51   Anyway, core two duo forever.

00:32:53   Alright, can we move on? Max Wilkie writes,

00:32:56   "The 21-inch iMac definitely did come in retina.

00:32:59   I still own one that's only a few feet away from me.

00:33:01   It's even got an SSD as configured, though I did have to order it as custom.

00:33:04   I don't think they ever came standard, so we were debating..."

00:33:07   Yeah, this was my fault.

00:33:08   No, I was right there with you.

00:33:09   I think the reason we remembered is because they kept selling the non-retina one for so long.

00:33:13   Not that it was the only thing that you could get, but I think they sold it for way longer than we thought.

00:33:17   Yeah, the 21-inch iMac line was the home of like,

00:33:21   "Let's keep around the old cheap stuff as long as possible to keep this computer cheap."

00:33:25   So they kept around non-retina way longer than everything else, including the MacBook Air, I believe.

00:33:33   I'm not positive on that, but it was either the last or the second to last non-retina Mac by a long margin two from the others.

00:33:42   And then they kept around the spinning hard drive in that computer longer than every other computer they sell, as far as I know.

00:33:48   And by the way, not that we're spoiling the whole tier list thing, but the meta-commentary on things like this and the tier list for youngsters who are listening to the program.

00:33:57   We got a lot of feedback about stuff, and even on the program I was trying to remember various things that I won't spoil at this point.

00:34:03   I'm like, "Wasn't there some issue with this thing?" or whatever.

00:34:05   And anyway, people wrote in to tell us what it actually was.

00:34:08   These are all things I knew like the back of my hand when I was writing for Ars Technica.

00:34:13   So at the time, I knew all this stuff, every detail, every minute thing. But now do I know them? No.

00:34:19   And I know when you're young you think it's weird. How did you know a thing at some time in the past?

00:34:23   It's like, you know, it's your hobby and you're super into it and you know all sorts of stats about your favorite computer, your favorite sports team, or your favorite car, or whatever things you're into.

00:34:31   But then later in life you don't know them? That's what getting old is like, kids.

00:34:36   Just want to tell you about that.

00:34:39   You think that if you know something now, you'll always know it. You'll never forget the exact gear ratios of your favorite RC car when you're a kid.

00:34:46   But eventually you'll forget what company made that car.

00:34:49   That's true.

00:34:51   As someone with major memory issues, I can tell you you're right. Who are you again?

00:34:55   Alrighty, so that is the end of our "Spoiling Our Own" member special.

00:35:01   Tahir Rangwala writes, "I went on a long search for a Mac text editor a few years back and landed on Cut Editor.

00:35:12   It's open source, fully Mac native, lightweight, very performant, and rather tasteful in its UI. Also it's being actively maintained."

00:35:18   So we can put that on the list.

00:35:20   I hadn't heard of this one and if you take a look at it, it's like, "Oh, it looks like a Mac text editor."

00:35:23   I heard it described as a Love Child, indie, New Wave clone of Text Made in BB Edit. But anyway, it's a native Mac app and it adds text. You might want to check it out.

00:35:34   There you go. And also we have Chime, which from the website is apparently designed to be a model citizen on the Mac.

00:35:40   It blends modern features with a minimalist UI and supports language server protocol and extensions.

00:35:44   LSP is the thing that lets you plug in a Swift parser into it or something like that?

00:35:49   It's a protocol for talking to a language server saying, "Tell me about this language."

00:35:53   Lumpy Space Princess?

00:35:54   Yeah, exactly. It's another process that runs that your editor communicates with and it tells you about the structure, like where are the keywords.

00:36:02   Right, okay, we're basically saying the same thing.

00:36:04   Anyway, this one, Chime, is kind of like a tiny indie Mac version of VS Code in terms of what the UI looks like.

00:36:12   But obviously this is the bad description of both of them. You should check them both out because they're both small and new and interesting.

00:36:17   And I hadn't heard of either one.

00:36:19   And then, apparently we didn't want me to suffer just once. Nay, let me suffer twice.

00:36:25   John put in follow-up with regard to Neilean.

00:36:29   Neilean?

00:36:30   Did you listen to the MP3 that I put in there?

00:36:32   I did, but it was hours ago.

00:36:33   But you'd forgotten what it sounded like, right?

00:36:35   Exactly. Who are you again? Hi, this is Casey.

00:36:38   So anyway, Neilean wrote the trans--

00:36:42   I'm going to say Nee-lee-en.

00:36:44   Okay, that wonderful person writes, "The transcription I usually give to English speakers is Nee, N-E-E, Lay, L-A-Y, A-N, A-N-N, Nee-lee-en."

00:36:54   I think that's right.

00:36:55   Anyways, also I found a French text-to-speech website that does a pretty good job.

00:36:59   And we will link that in the show notes because apparently I am inept.

00:37:03   Yeah, so lots of people sent us, "Oh, here's a website that has name pronunciations."

00:37:06   My point with the whole, like, this is a space ripe for disruption was not that there are not lots of these sites, it's that all these sites are bad.

00:37:12   And so every time someone sent me a site, whether I knew about the site or not, I went to it, looked up this person's name, and then sent them a screenshot showing that this site does not know this person's name.

00:37:21   But if it did know, it probably had a weird pronunciation.

00:37:23   And in terms of the pronunciation, I think it's an interesting feature of French, I think, where the pronunciation here is N-E-E-L-A-Y, and we would say Lay.

00:37:33   But if you listen to the MP3, it's more like Lay.

00:37:36   Anyway, maybe we'll put the MP3 in the show notes, or I guess maybe a link to the Toot in the show notes, which has a little video to hear the name.

00:37:43   But Milia and I think we figured it out kind of sort of finally at the end.

00:37:47   And it's a criminal that these websites that supposedly are all about pronouncing people's names don't have your name, because I have a feeling your name is not super duper rare.

00:37:55   Did you know it's called Fully?

00:37:57   Anonymous writes, "I'm the subject of Apple, Disney, trash cans, and Apple's inability to design places for humans the way that Disney can.

00:38:04   When building Apple Park, the designers, for whatever reason, neglected to put trash cans in each office.

00:38:08   Instead, each hallway was given a few large bins, which are of course beautifully integrated into the design,

00:38:13   with the apparent intention that people would get up from their desk and walk over to the nearest receptacle whenever they had something to throw away.

00:38:19   I'm sure this will shock you, but this is not what ended up happening.

00:38:22   Employees got so frustrated, in fact, that they eventually started just leaving their trash in piles outside their doors, which disrupted the beautiful design of the space somewhat.

00:38:29   Eventually, the facilities team came to put a small, ugly, grey, plastic, rubber-made looking trash can outside every office where they remain to this day.

00:38:36   Can we go back to how unbelievably upset I am that people, people who are presumably intelligent to have gotten a job at Apple, are thinking it is okay to throw trash on the ground because you can't be bothered?

00:38:50   Don't blame the people. It's a failure of design.

00:38:52   No, what kind of Apple decides to not get up and put their trash in the trash?

00:38:57   Oh, we have janitors for that. Screw you! That's not their job to pick up your trash.

00:39:01   It's their job to move the trash receptacles to other trash receptacles. It's not there to pick up after you, you big whiner.

00:39:07   I'm not endorsing throwing trash on the garbage, but I will say that I had no idea about this story when I used trash cans as an example of how Apple might not be as good at designing spaces for real humans as Disney is.

00:39:17   But in fact, it was not just like, "Here's an analogy." No, literally trash cans at Apple Park.

00:39:22   I mean, I find this first of all totally unsurprising that this was not properly accounted for.

00:39:27   But second of all, see, what I would do is I would never throw trash on the ground. That's not me at all.

00:39:32   But I would sneak in an unauthorized trash can.

00:39:36   That is big Marco energy.

00:39:38   I was going to say, the supposed solution to having the Rubbermaid trash cans outside every office, how does that help? It's still not near you. You still got to get up and go over there and put the... anyway.

00:39:45   That's exactly the type of things they talk about in these parks where you make this beautiful space and you think this is the way it should be, but then people enter it and people act like people and you're like, "No people! Act differently!"

00:39:55   And really you need to design the space to account for the people, even the bad people who put trash on the ground.

00:40:01   Alright, Ezekiel Ellen writes with regard to Mac Photos editing,

00:40:05   "When you're in Photos, you can edit in an external program one of two ways. As mentioned on the show, while in edit mode, the dot dot dot button has a list of apps that support editing in Photos.

00:40:15   But you can also right-click the photo and choose edit with, which has a shortcut command return for last used app.

00:40:22   This will open the photo, usually in TIFF format, in that app and save the edited photo back to your library when you're done. Any app that can open Photos can be used this way.

00:40:31   In all cases, you can never modify or lose the original. Photos always retains the original image. On the show you referred to the flatten option in Pixelmator Pro.

00:40:40   If you choose flatten, then the resulting image is flattened and saved back to your library as the current edit.

00:40:45   If you choose to preserve edits, Photos retains additional metadata so that it can restore the editing session if you bring Pixelmator Pro's extension back up within Photos.

00:40:53   Whether you have the ability to finally adjust edits or not, the revert to original button is always present in the editing session if the current photo has ever been modified."

00:41:02   Yeah, that was the distinction I missed. There's no way to lose the original, but the preserve edits preserves them so if you go back to the editor, like your layers or whatever the hell you did in the editor, that is preserved.

00:41:13   I always do the preserve thing so I didn't actually know what the flatten did and what the distinction was, but it's good to know that no matter what I pick, it's never going to mess with my original photo.

00:41:21   And then also from Ezekiel Ellen with regard to dumb TVs, "I have a TCL Roku TV and I keep it disconnected from the internet. When you do this, an LED flashes forever until it's reconnected. I used a pair of pliers to remove the LED from the circuit board."

00:41:38   That's a perfectly good, cheap 4K TV.

00:41:40   I thought this was going to go, I put a piece of tape over it, but sure, pliers. I put this in here just to show how aggressive these companies are getting about insisting you're on the internet.

00:41:51   Like a hardware thing with a light flashing your face that you can't disable is pretty severe.

00:41:57   I guess the next phase is some giant dialogue in the middle of your television that doesn't go away until you connect to the internet, but I suppose if someone's watching something on broadcast television over the air or watching a plastic disc spinning somewhere and they lose internet connection and they can't watch TV, they're going to be pretty angry.

00:42:14   And then finally, Apple TV Plus in games.

00:42:19   Let me tackle this one before you go into it because this is something that we talked about on the show where we talked about Disney and I put it in there specifically to remind myself to make a particular point and I didn't make it.

00:42:30   I made a bunch of other points, which I also wanted to make, but I missed this one.

00:42:33   This was the Aaron Thomas question that was like, "Sony and Nintendo have good relationships with game developers. What can Apple and Google learn from them?"

00:42:40   It's related to the Disney thing in a bunch of ways, but the final way that I want to mention is we were talking about Apple keeping its hands off stuff like Apple keeping its hands off beats and whether or not they're doing that.

00:42:50   Apple keeping its hands off the people who make the Apple TV Plus shows and not telling them that they can't have nudity or violence and stuff like that despite the rumors.

00:42:58   So I think there is something to the idea that Apple's ability to keep its hands off, and this sounds so weird because obviously these things are part of Apple, like Apple TV Plus, the studio is part of Apple and beats is part of Apple.

00:43:11   But when I tell you Apple, I'm talking about the Apple that acquired those companies.

00:43:16   So that Apple, the core Apple, the Apple that does computer products.

00:43:19   The Apple core.

00:43:20   Ding.

00:43:21   Yeah, there you go.

00:43:22   That part, can it keep its hands off when it acquires a business that does something that it previously didn't have expertise in?

00:43:29   Or even when it grows organically, we're going to start our own television and movie studios.

00:43:32   We have no expertise in this.

00:43:33   We've never done it before, but we're going to hire a bunch of people.

00:43:36   They're going to be part of Apple, but we're going to let them do what they know how to do because we know that we don't know how to do it and we shouldn't mess with them and we'll give them guidance and some direction, but mostly let them do what they want.

00:43:48   Versus buying something like beats where it's like, "Well, we make headphones.

00:43:50   We'll talk to them a little bit or whatever."

00:43:51   I think Apple is much better able to keep its hands off stuff when it is far away from things that it does, and I think that's part of its big problem with games.

00:44:01   Getting to Aaron's question, why are they so bad at games?

00:44:03   Why did Nintendo and Sony have good relationships with developers?

00:44:06   Why does Apple and Google not?

00:44:08   I can't speak to Google right now, but Apple, I think the reason Apple and games gets messed up is because Apple and gaming impacts directly on all of Apple's core businesses.

00:44:19   The Mac, the phone, the Apple TV.

00:44:22   Apple is like, "Well, we know about that stuff. We're Apple. Of course we know about making Macs.

00:44:27   We know about making operating systems and we know about GPUs and all that stuff."

00:44:32   They feel like they have expertise in that area.

00:44:36   To the extent that there is any overlap between what you need to do to be good at games and existing Apple business and technologies that Apple thinks it already knows, there is conflict.

00:44:44   That, I think, is a big reason why Apple has such problems with games because games touch so many parts of their business.

00:44:50   Apple says, "Don't tell us what to do. We know how to do this. Don't tell us whether we should have Nvidia GPUs or external GPUs at all.

00:44:58   We know what we're doing. We know what's right for this business.

00:45:00   Don't tell us whether we need OpenGL in our operating system or Vulkan. We don't need that. We're going to do Metal."

00:45:04   There is so much entrenched expertise and knowledge and experience related to gaming-related stuff inside Apple that it's very difficult for Apple to grow organically or allow it to come in from the outside.

00:45:17   People who have different ideas and say, "Well, you know, here's how Microsoft does it and how they interface with game developers and it seems to work better for them.

00:45:24   Because look at all the games on their platforms and they have a console and so on and so forth.

00:45:27   And here's how other companies interface with Sony. We brought in these people from Activision or whatever and they're telling us, "Well, if you want to do well in the gaming industry, you've got X, Y, and Z."

00:45:37   And that runs right up against Apple folks saying, "I've been working on the Mac for 25 years and you're not going to tell me what I need to do to my hardware or software platform to do better for gaming."

00:45:48   And that's why I think that's related to this question. That's part of the reason that Apple has such trouble with games. It just overlaps too much.

00:45:55   Whereas Disney, I would imagine theme parks does not overlap too much. Although, Apple might say, "We know how to make spaces for humans. Look at Apple Park. It's perfect." Except for the Rubbermaid garbage cans.

00:46:04   Consider becoming an ATP member today. ATP membership gets all sorts of fun little goodies, but the big two are the ad-free feed and bonus content.

00:46:16   So, here's what you get. The ad-free version of the show. You don't hear messages like this or other sponsorships and instead you get an ad-free feed that you can add to whatever podcast player you want to use.

00:46:26   It's a URL unique to you, so you can just do whatever you want with it. Listen anywhere you want. Of course, I have my opinion, but you can listen to any player you want that supports URLs.

00:46:35   So, anyway, that's the big one. You get an ad-free version of the show. You also get whatever kind of member special content we decide to release. Usually, this is about maybe once a month or so, we'll do some kind of member special.

00:46:49   And so we've done things like movie reviews, we've taste tested food on the air, most recently we did two tier lists. A tier list ranking every iPhone to date and just this week, a tier list ranking every iMac to date.

00:47:03   So, there's member exclusive content and the ad-free feed. Those are the big ones and it's just a great way to support the show. There are other smaller perks as well. I'll get to those later in the show.

00:47:12   But basically, that's what you're mostly paying to support the show and you get the ad-free feed and member exclusive content. It's a bunch of fun. So, see for yourself. It's just eight bucks a month at atp.fm/join.

00:47:23   Thank you so much for considering being a member today and we really hope you check it out atp.fm/join. Thank you so much.

00:47:31   We talked a few episodes ago, I don't recall exactly when, about Marco's quest to get better security cameras. And I guess the quick summary was you had, what did you have that was constantly failing, Marco?

00:47:46   I had the Logitech Circle View HomeKit secure video cameras. And I've used them for about two years. They would just constantly fall off the network and were constantly not connected or would have long delays and then fail to connect or whatever else.

00:48:03   So, since talking about this, we got a ton of recommendations for Ubiquiti cameras and also a ton of people saying, "I also have the Logitech Circle View and it has the same problem for me."

00:48:16   So, that was very vindicating that it isn't just me. That everyone's Logitech Circle Views kind of suck. And that was kind of the story with almost every consumer grade Wi-Fi camera that we heard about.

00:48:30   Everyone basically said the same thing. The Eufy cameras seem to be a little more reliable in people's reports, but still not super reliable.

00:48:41   And everyone kept telling me the exact same thing. First of all, because I had asked about Ubiquiti stuff, because I already have Ubiquiti networking gear and I like it a lot.

00:48:47   And so, I knew they had cameras. I asked people if they were any good. Everyone said yes. And everyone also wrote in to basically say, "Pretty much any power over Ethernet wired camera is very good compared to Wi-Fi cameras."

00:49:02   And so, you don't have to necessarily go Ubiquiti. There's all sorts of PoE cameras that you... As long as you can run Ethernet wiring to where you have to be and you have a PoE supplying switch or injectors of some kind, then that's the way to go.

00:49:17   Everyone told me that. So, of course, I bought a bunch of Ubiquiti stuff. That's my standard operating procedure.

00:49:25   Quick review of how this went. In short, extremely well. I've been using the Ubiquiti and UniFi Protect setup now for, I think, about three weeks. It has been awesome.

00:49:40   So, first of all, a couple of drawbacks. This whole thing is super expensive. This is the pro level thing.

00:49:48   A while ago, I was trying to help out my town with their meetings. I talked about it very briefly on the show with the microphone equipment they should use for meetings.

00:49:56   I was recommending, based on my limited experience with wireless mics, I was recommending a pro-grade Shure, the SLXD wireless system.

00:50:07   Because I had used some of the lower end consumer-y kind of stuff before, it would always have static or dropouts. It was using 2.4 GHz instead of some of the UHF frequencies.

00:50:19   I had run into all the limitations of consumer-grade gear in wireless mics. You get the better stuff, it will not drop out. It will not have static.

00:50:29   It will just work. And it has just worked. It has been perfect. It has been flawless. There has not been a single dropout. There is not even a blip of static ever. They just work.

00:50:42   That's what you pay for when you get pro gear. Pro gear, when you're using a microphone or a camera or whatever, when you're using this stuff professionally, similar with computer gear too,

00:50:52   when you're using this stuff professionally, you can't afford to have it not work. If it doesn't work, bad stuff happens. You have to re-shoot a scene or some high stakes thing gets ruined or gets messed up.

00:51:06   Or you look bad because you're trying to be professional and then you show up with amateur gear or whatever. You need it to work 100% of the time.

00:51:14   In the camera business, Wi-Fi cameras are the consumer-level gear. They are inexpensive. If you don't have super high needs, and especially if you're price-sensitive, they're a great option.

00:51:28   But they kind of suck. You kind of get what you pay for. And now that I've used PoE cameras, no question, this is the pro gear.

00:51:38   And that's why the setup costs more. And that's why it has a little bit higher startup requirements. It's the pro system.

00:51:45   And when you want it to work 100% of the time or very, very close to that, that's what you go for. You go for wired Ethernet supplying power and data over a cable, no Wi-Fi.

00:51:57   And these are like heavy duty materials and enclosures and everything. It's pro gear.

00:52:03   To get started with a Ubiquiti camera system, you need something that acts as the video recorder.

00:52:11   They have a few pieces of equipment you can do this with. I went with the small version of their NVR, the network video recorder. They have one that has a whole bunch of bays.

00:52:21   I went with the one that only has four bays because it was a lot cheaper and I don't need any more than that.

00:52:25   A couple of little drawbacks here. It's a few hundred bucks. A couple of little drawbacks. It has four hard drive bays, but it does not, as far as you can tell, does not let you configure the RAID.

00:52:33   It just automatically does it. So I bought two hard drives thinking I would run them in RAID 0 basically because this data is not super important that I'm worried about a hard drive crash.

00:52:44   Like erasing last week's footage, it isn't that important that I need to keep it. So I was thinking just to maximize space and retention time, I'd put two disks in it.

00:52:53   Little did I know that two disks in the Ubiquiti NVR will always and only be configured as RAID 1. So I only had the space of one of them.

00:53:03   So they're only redundant and there's no way to make it use two disks as all their space. If you only have two disks in there, it does RAID 1. If you add any more, it does RAID 5.

00:53:13   How did you not immediately buy a third disk?

00:53:15   Why? I mean it's...

00:53:17   Because you're Marco.

00:53:18   I decided, alright, you know what, this is fine. Whatever.

00:53:21   Alright. Well, set the clock on that third hard drive everybody.

00:53:24   Yeah, right.

00:53:26   Secondly, when you get into Ubiquiti stuff, they have all these like UniFi apps.

00:53:32   And my main router is the original UniFi Dream Machine, which doesn't support network video functionality directly.

00:53:41   I thought that by adding an NVR to my network here, I thought that it would integrate better into the Dream Machine so I would have all my like UniFi apps in one screen.

00:53:51   It doesn't. You just have to access the NVR via its IP address. Like that's how you access its web interface. Just the IP, you know, the 1 and 2 dot whatever.

00:53:59   What I probably should have done is I discussed that for the new house I got the UDM SE, the Dream Machine SE that has the hard drive bay in it and integrates this functionality into the router.

00:54:12   I probably should have gotten that for here too. I didn't. Oh well.

00:54:15   Because that would have actually integrated it all into one interface.

00:54:18   But I already had the Dream Machine here and so this was cheaper, easier, etc.

00:54:23   Anyway, it's been working fine. So moving on from the NVR.

00:54:27   But if you are doing a new setup, I would get a Dream Machine router that has built in storage.

00:54:32   The new ones either have like little SSDs or the big hard drive bay. I would just do that.

00:54:37   Anyway, the cameras I got were mostly the G5 Bullet.

00:54:41   This seemed somewhat comparable in like, you know, price and quality to the Circle View.

00:54:46   Some downsides of the G5 Bullet camera compared to the Circle View.

00:54:50   It has a much narrower field of view. So the Circle View has an, I think it's officially a 180 degree view.

00:54:58   That's why they call it Circle View. Or at least it's very close to 180 degrees.

00:55:02   That would be a half a circle though.

00:55:04   Well, that's true. Well the camera is round at least.

00:55:07   Speaking of the G5 camera, I know a lot of people wrote in and said, "Oh, even though the G5 is near you, you should get the G4."

00:55:12   And I don't remember the reason. Was it like less glare or was it also a field of view thing?

00:55:16   No, the reason people cited was that apparently the G5s were mostly a response to COVID supply chain shortages.

00:55:24   Where they kind of simplified the camera and they actually made it cheaper.

00:55:28   They downgraded some things like from metal to plastic.

00:55:31   I don't know too many details because I decided, you know what, for my purposes, I'd rather get the cheaper ones.

00:55:37   It's not like you live in a harsh environment. It'll be fine.

00:55:40   Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

00:55:42   Anyway, yeah, so I went for the newer cheaper models because for my purposes, I wanted to have a few of them.

00:55:49   It started to add up if I went to the old ones.

00:55:51   Margo's kink is putting electronic devices outside that aren't equipped to deal with the weather.

00:55:56   And if he can't put indoor stuff outdoor, he's going to buy the cheapest outdoor stuff he can.

00:56:00   Sounds right.

00:56:01   G5 versus G4. One of them says it's built more sturdily and the other one is decontended.

00:56:05   Ooh, I get a thrill from putting the decontended one out there.

00:56:08   Oh my God.

00:56:10   That's amazing. I really want to see the picture of what the G5s look like after a year.

00:56:15   Okay. Set one of your long-term reminders. Ask me in a year.

00:56:21   Anyway, all right, so compared to the Logitech, narrower field of view on the G5 Bullet, which is, it depends where you're putting it.

00:56:30   That could be a plus or a minus.

00:56:31   I have found with the Logitech, with the ultra-wide view of the Logitechs, you do see more area,

00:56:37   but it's kind of like the problem with the center stage cameras in the recent cinema display and recent iPads.

00:56:44   You can have an ultra-wide lens and just kind of crop in when you need to see something further in,

00:56:48   but that comes at a pretty significant loss in detail. And so it's a trade-off.

00:56:53   I had one spot where I kind of missed the wider angle. In all the other spots I put them, I enjoyed the increased detail better.

00:57:01   So anyway, it's a trade-off.

00:57:03   The Ubiquiti cameras are also substantially larger and I would say uglier, but that also makes them more visible.

00:57:13   You know, one of the problems, one of the most important roles that one of these cameras serves is to be visible

00:57:20   so that people who are trying to walk under my house to pee under it see the camera and maybe get deterred from peeing there.

00:57:27   I've found that the Logitech circle views are so small and discreet that a lot of times people would walk right past it at eye level and not see it.

00:57:36   Marcos' house is on stilts, by the way. I really do wonder where people are thinking, like, "People walk under your house to pee? What?"

00:57:42   Oh, yeah.

00:57:43   It's very high up in the air.

00:57:44   Yes, it's near the water so it's on piles. Anyway, the Ubiquiti cameras are much more visible.

00:57:50   And so for my purposes, actually that's good. Like, if you want it to be discreet, don't go with these.

00:57:57   But if you want them to actually be visible, to be some kind of deterrent to people or whatever, it's actually an upgrade.

00:58:03   You could have put big googly eyes on them. You can get those real cheap. They'll hold up to the salt weather. Just giant googly eyes.

00:58:08   Oh, yeah. Cheap adhesives on the back of something made of paper, that'll do great.

00:58:12   You got to tie it there with a rusty piece of wire.

00:58:15   Yeah, exactly. Anyway, I would say the image quality is very good. A little bit better than the circle view.

00:58:23   And of course, the narrower field of view helps certain things as well.

00:58:26   Mostly what I have loved about the G5 and all the Ubiquiti cameras is that they are far more customizable and tweakable for things like activity zones.

00:58:38   So you can draw out, you can load the image in the app and you can draw out, all right, only report person detection in this area.

00:58:46   And you draw a polygon of what part of the picture you want to report.

00:58:50   And you can define multiple zones. You can set their sensitivity as a percentage.

00:58:56   So if you find you're getting too many false positives because your bike seat looks like a person in certain lighting.

00:59:01   Yes, that happened to me. You can just turn that down a little bit.

00:59:04   Like turn sensitivity down to like, oh, default's 50%, make it 30%. And you can tweak a lot about it.

00:59:10   And I found with HomeKit Secure Video, I have found those settings oftentimes don't stick or after a while they reset themselves.

00:59:19   I don't know why it's infuriating because like one of these cameras I have pointing basically, you know,

00:59:25   the street in front of my house is in the field of view of one of these cameras where the circle view used to be.

00:59:31   And I want person detection on the part that's like close to my house.

00:59:36   But sometimes Logitech would just forget that setting and would start reporting every single person that walked by on the street, which is not helpful.

00:59:43   This was a problem with so many settings for the Logitechs.

00:59:46   I would tell them, for instance, stop notifying me every time you disconnect and go offline.

00:59:51   And it would remember that for a few days and then forget.

00:59:54   And then it would start notifying me every time it went offline.

00:59:56   Like that was a constant battle with the HomeKit cameras. It just keeps forgetting my settings or resetting my settings for no apparent reason.

01:00:05   So far, the ubiquitous system has never forgotten a setting. You set it and forget it.

01:00:10   You said it and it just remembers like, look, it should like, why is that? Why is that not even table stakes? I don't know.

01:00:16   And to run a bit of a test on the smarts of these cameras and the speed of these cameras,

01:00:21   I've kept one Circle View camera in use. The one by the bikes.

01:00:26   Because this is the one every time we leave or come back, we're usually on a bike because it's a bike town,

01:00:31   and every time we leave or come back, this camera alerts me so I get a tap tap on my watch when I or anyone else pulls into the bike area.

01:00:37   And it's like, oh, hey, Tiff's home. You know, it's great.

01:00:40   That Circle View, because it's right next to a wireless access point, that Circle View has been the most reliable.

01:00:46   And it's been the most useful because I love that utility.

01:00:49   So I wanted to see, you know, one of the advantages of HomeKit is that almost everything about it runs locally on your network.

01:00:55   So notifications and responses to things tend to be very fast with HomeKit.

01:01:00   Again, that's one of the best things about it.

01:01:02   This should, in theory, be as fast because it is also mostly on my network.

01:01:06   But I figured, well, to send a notification, they have to like upload the picture to some service somewhere

01:01:12   so that the notification can have access to that image from Apple's notification service to show it on the watch or on the phone or whatever.

01:01:19   So I figured maybe it'll be slower.

01:01:21   And I wanted to also test how smart is the object and person recognition.

01:01:25   Is it smarter than Logitech? Is it dumber? Is it slower? Is it faster?

01:01:28   So for these three weeks, I've been running both the Logitech and Ubiquiti G5 Bullet in the bike area.

01:01:35   The speed has been nearly identical.

01:01:38   They're always within, you know, like occasionally one will come in before the other or the other one or it'll flip around the order that they come in.

01:01:46   But they're basically exactly as fast. So that's great.

01:01:49   They also are about as smart or smarter.

01:01:53   Occasionally, the Logitech will report a spider web moving in front of it as a person.

01:01:58   So far, the Ubiquiti cameras have never done stupid stuff like that.

01:02:02   It did. Again, it did think my bike seat was a person for a while.

01:02:05   So I just adjusted that sensitivity and that fixed that problem.

01:02:08   Neither one has ever like missed a person.

01:02:12   Like when I lowered the sensitivity for the bike area to get rid of the bike seat issue, it didn't start missing people.

01:02:18   It's recognizing us every single time.

01:02:20   So it's exactly as good for that, if not better.

01:02:24   All the detection, you know, the person detection, it's all wonderful.

01:02:28   One thing it does not have, the HomeKit notifications, if you long press them on the phone screen or whatever, it would actually play the video clip.

01:02:37   These don't do that.

01:02:39   These you have to tap and load the app.

01:02:41   Like they'll show you the picture, but you have to tap and actually view it in their app to see the actual video clip.

01:02:47   But with HomeKit, that was not only unreliable, but slow.

01:02:51   A lot of times you'd be waiting a long time for that clip to load or it would never load.

01:02:55   With the Ubiquiti cameras, those clips load immediately every single time, whether you are on your network or not.

01:03:02   So there have been times during this time where we've been out of town driving box trucks and I was able to see the notifications and load the video clips and see the guys peeing on my house exactly as quickly.

01:03:13   Or in most cases, way faster, even though this was then streaming from my own network to the internet rather than coming from HomeKit's secure video servers or anything like that.

01:03:24   So the speed of everything is great.

01:03:26   And then trying to skim through the timeline using the UniFi Protect app is so much faster and more reliable than trying to skim through the timeline of HomeKit stuff.

01:03:37   And of course, as I mentioned last time, this has the advantage of 24/7 recording if you want it to.

01:03:43   For some of these I do.

01:03:45   HomeKit secure video is only ever motion event based.

01:03:49   There is no option in HomeKit for continuous recording.

01:03:53   With this you have that option.

01:03:55   So I have a few of the cameras doing continuous recording.

01:03:57   And it is just so fast and so easy and so reliable.

01:04:01   It's awesome.

01:04:03   As for the physical setup of them, power over Ethernet is awesome.

01:04:10   This is something I already knew from Wi-Fi access points and stuff, but it continues to be awesome.

01:04:15   Running the Logitech cameras I had to have some kind of power outlet situation for them to supply them with their USB power somewhere within 15 feet of each camera.

01:04:25   And because they're all outside, that involved some logistics like running extension cords in weird places, having those outdoor closed up ceiling boxes around a power strip or something to keep the weather out, John.

01:04:39   So there was a whole bunch of, just kind of cruft, that when I went to PoE for these cameras, I could just get rid of all that stuff.

01:04:47   Because I could just have these all going into my utility closet and then just run a long cable, like a long Ethernet cable, and that carries power and data for these.

01:04:57   So I got to get rid of all those power adapters, all those extension cords, all those USB power bricks, all those outdoor weather enclosures.

01:05:05   Got rid of all of them. So it's a way nicer and cleaner setup.

01:05:09   How are you feeling about the weather sealing on where it plugs into the cameras?

01:05:13   For these to be perfectly weather sealed, you have to either use like a mounting box that itself is sealed, or you can use the mounts they come with but they have like a little rubber gasket in the mount.

01:05:25   And it is not wide enough to fit an Ethernet cable end through.

01:05:31   I think the idea is you're supposed to just run bare wire and then splice your own end on, you know?

01:05:37   That's right, yeah. Professionals don't buy pre-made cables.

01:05:40   Right, but I do. Because I've tried making my own cables and I can't do it. Believe me, I've tried.

01:05:45   So what did you do? You just plugged it in without the sealing thing?

01:05:47   Yeah, I just popped the sealing thing out. And then I used dielectric grease around some of the main connectors.

01:05:52   Alright, I was going to ask, because a lot of people send us things like, "Here's what you do for outdoor connections."

01:05:55   And it's like you pack the thing with gel or some other thing to keep the air out, essentially.

01:06:00   Yeah, that's what I did.

01:06:01   I did put that long-term reminder in for a year from now, by the way, because I can't wait to see what these Ethernet connections look like.

01:06:06   RJ44 plus dielectric grease plus ocean air.

01:06:09   Yeah, exactly.

01:06:11   RJ45, sorry.

01:06:12   And otherwise, the only other thing I would say is this did require me to buy a couple more switches, a couple more PoE switches.

01:06:19   Ubiquiti has this one called the Switch Flex, which seems to be basically made for this purpose.

01:06:25   It's an indoor/outdoor compatible switch, and it has PoE kind of pass-through on all the ports.

01:06:32   I did have to buy some of the really big 60-watt PoE injectors at the other end of those so that the switches could have enough power to spread around.

01:06:39   The cameras use a few watts each, so if you're looking into this budget and plan for possibly some switch upgrades or some power injectors somewhere along the way.

01:06:50   Otherwise, I'm super happy with this setup. It is so nerdy, and it is 100% reliable so far.

01:06:57   And I just like, look, again, because we're in the middle of moving, selling a house, we have a lot going on in our life right now.

01:07:06   It's fine, we're good, but it's very, very busy.

01:07:09   And to take something that is super unreliable and irritating and full of paper cuts and to just make it super reliable and just take all those problems away from your life is incredibly satisfying and incredibly valuable, depending on what your life has in it right now.

01:07:26   And this is one thing where I had this unreliable system that was driving me nuts, and now it's gone, and in place of it is something that just works super well.

01:07:36   Did you end up using Scripted?

01:07:38   No, I'm not actually. So Scripted was the app that everyone recommended that allows you to basically bridge any other camera system, including PoE cameras, including Ubiquiti stuff.

01:07:48   It allows you to bridge those into HomeKit Secure Video.

01:07:52   I thought I would set that up on something, but first of all, I don't have any spare hardware to run it on right now.

01:07:56   And I looked at it like, oh, should I buy the low-end Mac Mini or some kind of high-end Raspberry Pi or Intel NUC thing?

01:08:02   And I realized, first of all, as previously spoken, I don't have time for this crap right now.

01:08:08   And second of all, I don't want to run one of these things just for this.

01:08:10   And then third of all, I realized I don't think I actually need it for anything.

01:08:14   The only major advantage that would provide me is integrations with features that I don't really use.

01:08:21   Like, yes, it turns your other camera system into something that can, for instance, show the person at the door on your Apple TV.

01:08:29   Well, I don't do that. I don't use that feature. So I don't really need that.

01:08:33   The other thing is it would allow you to have an off-site record of motion events.

01:08:38   That is valuable, and at some point I might look into it for that, so that way, in case a hurricane destroys my house,

01:08:45   I'll be able to see the video clips up to that point that contain motion.

01:08:48   Okay, I mean, I don't know how actionable that is, but it might be worth having at some point.

01:08:54   But for now, the value is just not there. I'm just not having these cameras in HomeKit, and it's fine.

01:08:59   You couldn't just put a Docker container on your Synology? I know this is like this anathema to you, or however you pronounce the word.

01:09:05   I think it's anathema.

01:09:08   Anathema, there we go, sorry. It's one of those ones like Bizelle that I've only ever read and never pronounced.

01:09:13   Anyways, the point is, I know that you are, like, allergic, how about that, to Docker and anything like it,

01:09:20   but this really is the sort of thing that if you were to accept help from another human being, hello, I'm that person,

01:09:26   I could get you set up with this, assuming there is a Docker container for scripted, which I would assume there is,

01:09:31   then it would be minutes to get this squared away. Like, I cannot speak highly enough how quickly you could get that running on, say, your Synology,

01:09:40   leaving aside, like, Surveillance Station or any of that, but you could get that running so fast if you were willing to accept ten minutes of help.

01:09:47   Getting the Docker container isn't the hard part. I think it's setting up scripted with the cameras the way he wants it to be.

01:09:53   Yeah, that's fair.

01:09:54   Making sure it doesn't anger them, and I understand his desire not to overcomplicate it if things are finally working.

01:09:59   Well, also, like, there's all sorts of things, there's stuff like Homebridge, all these wonderful apps that are made to connect different smart home things to different systems,

01:10:09   and that's great. I'm not at a point in my life where I want to add complexity like that to my setup.

01:10:15   Like, I'd rather just have, I'd rather just use the products directly, and to add something like that to my setup, it's a very optimistic thing, thinking,

01:10:24   "I'll just set this up, and then these things will be bridged forever." And that's never how it really works.

01:10:28   You know, always in practice, you have some kind of hack or bridge like that, every few months you've got to reset it or reconfigure it or figure out why something's not working,

01:10:37   and then you have a whole other thing to debug or run or operate. Those Docker containers will eventually need to be updated or will eventually break or something like that.

01:10:44   Yes, but that's incredibly easy. But I do agree with what you're saying in principle, but it is so easy.

01:10:49   Yeah, but that's, it just, that adds more stuff to my plate, and I'm like, I don't, you know, is this additional integration or feature really worth that level of tinkering and maintenance?

01:11:00   And to me, oftentimes the answer is no.

01:11:02   Yeah, I mean, you're allowed. It doesn't make you wrong. I just, I cannot overstate how easy this could potentially be if you were interested in it, and it sounds like you're just plain not interested, and that's okay.

01:11:13   I remember how excited you were about the Logitech Circle View cameras, so this may be the honeymoon period, and related to that, we got one bit of very adamant feedback from John McMichael who said,

01:11:22   "Ubiquity Video Cameras is hot garbage." Ubiquity Video Camera? Singular is hot garbage?

01:11:27   "Get yourself some Lor-Ex cameras." L-O-R-E-X.

01:11:31   "And tie them into Security Spy." And I believe I found the correct link for Security Spy.

01:11:36   Security Spy looks like the type, if you have an apartment building and you want to have a station where there's a security guard looking at a bunch of cameras, that's what it looks like, but it's for the Mac.

01:11:44   Looks like an impressive piece of software, but I'm guessing this is not what Marco wants.

01:11:49   And that too, I didn't want to run a Mac server. Because again, what I have now, I have this Ubiquity appliance, basically, the NVR doing the recording and everything.

01:11:59   I know Ubiquity gear, I know I can just let that run for years and never touch it, never update it, never have to worry about, like, is something going to break, you know, something never falls out of configuration.

01:12:09   Right now, I don't run a Mac server at home for any reason. And I'm okay with that.

01:12:17   Where's the NVR? Is the NVR in the water closet?

01:12:20   Okay, the water is on the floor. It is far, it's up. It's like five feet above any water.

01:12:32   Maybe I have a server closet as a term of art, but literal closets and houses tend not to have great ventilation. I do have some concern about the number of other stuff.

01:12:39   Oh, no, that, no, it's a utility closet. So it is ventilated, like, it's where I have other networking gear. It's fine.

01:12:46   All right, so when you open the door, you don't feel a blast of hot air come out at you?

01:12:50   No, no, it's actually partially conditioned the way the house is. So like, you know, right, like when the air conditioning is on, you open the door and you get a blast of cold air.

01:12:58   Yes, we know water closet is a term for bathroom. That's not what we mean.

01:13:03   Yes, we're aware.

01:13:04   See past episodes, it's complicated.

01:13:05   It's really not. Yeah. So anyway, this system, look, if you're a nerd, this is awesome.

01:13:10   If you're, if you, if you're looking for like a basic, easy to set up, inexpensive, compact home security camera system, this is not that.

01:13:20   But if you want something that's really good, like high, high end needs, or just you want something that works really well, and you're willing to probably spend more than you reasonably responsibly should and have all this gear somewhere in your closet somewhere, then this is awesome.

01:13:37   This doesn't make sense for most people, but if it makes sense for you, it's really awesome.

01:13:42   Please consider becoming an ATP member today. So I told you earlier, membership gets you the ad free version of the show and occasional member exclusive bonus content.

01:13:53   Those are great reasons to support the show. Also, the most popular possibly thing that we give with membership, very popular option among our members is the bootleg feed.

01:14:02   People love this thing. So the bootleg is the unedited live broadcast of the show. We publish it right after the live broadcast finishes.

01:14:11   So what this means is it is totally raw, totally unedited. You hear all the bad jokes that didn't land. You hear Casey swearing.

01:14:19   You hear me, you know, missing the timing of the Viper slap that I later move up and post. Like you hear all that stuff.

01:14:25   You hear our little kind of bumper discussions, the beginning and end of the show where that might be cut off from the release version because it doesn't really make sense or fit in the time that I want.

01:14:34   So you get all sorts of little bonus stuff and it's very raw and it's released right after the recording ends.

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01:14:46   So you get an earlier release and all the unedited glory of the show. That's the bootleg. That joins the ad free feed, the member bonus content here and there.

01:14:56   And you occasionally get our little perks as well. Things like discounts on merchandise whenever we have our merchandise sales and occasional little test flight links to our various app betas if we have those or things like that.

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01:15:30   [Music]

01:15:37   >> Hi, everyone. I'm John. I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:15:42   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:15:44   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:15:46   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:15:48   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:15:50   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:15:52   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:15:54   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:15:56   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:15:58   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:00   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:02   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:07   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:09   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:11   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:13   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:15   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:17   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:19   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:21   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:23   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:25   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:27   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:29   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:32   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:34   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:36   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:38   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:40   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:42   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:44   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:46   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:48   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:50   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:52   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:54   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:56   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:16:58   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:00   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:02   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:04   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:06   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:08   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:10   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:12   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:14   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:16   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:18   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:20   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:22   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:24   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:26   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:28   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:30   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:32   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:34   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:36   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:38   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:40   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:42   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:44   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:46   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:48   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:50   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:52   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:54   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:56   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:17:58   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:00   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:02   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:04   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:06   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:08   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:10   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:12   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:14   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:16   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:18   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:20   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:22   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:24   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:26   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:28   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:30   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:32   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:34   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:36   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:38   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:40   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:42   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:44   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:46   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:48   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:50   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:52   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:54   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:56   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:18:58   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:00   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:02   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:04   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:06   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:08   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:10   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:12   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:14   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:16   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:18   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:20   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:22   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:24   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:26   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:28   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:30   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:32   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:34   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:36   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:38   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:40   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:42   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:44   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:46   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:48   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:50   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:52   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:54   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:56   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:19:58   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:00   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:02   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:04   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:06   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:08   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:10   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:12   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:14   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:16   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:18   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:20   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:22   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:24   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:26   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:28   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:30   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:32   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:34   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:36   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:38   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:40   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:42   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:44   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:46   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:48   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:50   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:52   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:54   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:56   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:20:58   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:00   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:02   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:04   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:06   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:08   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:10   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:12   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:14   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:16   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:18   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:20   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:22   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:24   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:26   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:28   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:30   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:32   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:34   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:36   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:38   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:40   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:42   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:44   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:46   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:48   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:50   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:52   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:54   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:56   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:21:58   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:00   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:02   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:04   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:06   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:08   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:10   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:12   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:14   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:16   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:18   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:20   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:22   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:24   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:26   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:28   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:30   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:32   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:34   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:36   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:38   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:40   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:42   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:44   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:46   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:48   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:50   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:52   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:54   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:56   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:22:58   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:00   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:02   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:04   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:06   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:08   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:10   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:12   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:14   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:16   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:18   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:20   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:22   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:24   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:26   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:28   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:30   I'm a junior at Smith Family.

01:23:32   You can help get the name early.

01:23:34   A lot of the Gmail ones are taken, which is rough.

01:23:36   But you can probably, if you combine their first and last name,

01:23:38   or first and middle name, or initials or whatever,

01:23:40   you can probably find something.

01:23:42   Just don't use numbers.

01:23:44   If they want to use numbers, they can.

01:23:46   You can't stop them.

01:23:48   And it's kind of a shame that I have to say this.

01:23:50   That the best thing to do is to have your own domain

01:23:52   that you control, but you can't do that for your kids

01:23:54   because you don't know whether they're going to be into computers.

01:23:56   I wish it wasn't something that you needed to be even

01:23:58   a little bit interested in computers to deal with.

01:24:00   Again, it's not complicated.

01:24:02   We all can do it really easily, right?

01:24:04   Oh, fast mail is so easy, or forwarding to Gmail is so easy.

01:24:06   But mail delivery is more complicated than you think.

01:24:08   And even the simplest things,

01:24:10   even just maintaining and continuing to pay for a domain name,

01:24:13   which is nothing for people like us who have amassed them like candy

01:24:16   and just have way too many domain names,

01:24:18   if someone's not into computers in their future life,

01:24:21   that's a burden to them, and they're going to mess it up,

01:24:24   and it's going to cause problems if they're still using their email address.

01:24:27   Michael writes, "What is your expectation towards subscription apps?

01:24:30   Do you expect new features in active development,

01:24:32   or should it just not break?"

01:24:34   I don't know if Marco or I is qualified,

01:24:37   but in a position to genuinely answer.

01:24:39   You have a subscription app, both of you.

01:24:41   I know, but I have my opinions.

01:24:43   That's what people are asking.

01:24:45   Well, I feel like I'm deeply biased from the developer perspective,

01:24:50   which is, hey, it hasn't broken, you should be happy.

01:24:52   But from a user perspective, I'm not so sure that's quite so fair.

01:24:56   I think it's tough, right?

01:25:00   I think from a user perspective, I think something new

01:25:02   at least once a year is a reasonable expectation,

01:25:05   but again, it's hard, and from a developer's perspective,

01:25:09   is the thing that I sold you, is that still working, yes or no?

01:25:13   If yes, then we have satisfied the contract.

01:25:16   That's basically it, but it doesn't matter to me

01:25:20   whether something is adding new stuff all the time.

01:25:23   What matters to me is am I getting continued value from it?

01:25:27   Now, that can mean a lot of things.

01:25:29   As long as it is working for the reasons I went to pay for it in the first place,

01:25:34   as long as that continues to function,

01:25:36   I'm fine with it even if they don't add any more features.

01:25:39   If I'm paying for working software and it continues to work, that's fine.

01:25:47   Certainly, ideally, it would at least keep up with the environment around it.

01:25:52   So, for instance, if it's an iOS app, Apple announces some new feature for the next OS,

01:25:57   and I would expect within a reasonable amount of time after that feature launches,

01:26:02   after that OS launches, I would hope that the app would be updated to support it

01:26:06   if it made a lot of sense for the app.

01:26:08   So that's a lot of conditions. That's a lot of qualifiers.

01:26:11   But for instance, this year, iOS 17, big thing is interactive widgets.

01:26:18   I would hope that an app that I'm paying an active subscription for,

01:26:22   I would hope if it has a lot of value in widgets

01:26:26   and if there's a lot of value in those widgets becoming interactive for that app,

01:26:30   for the actual role that it serves in my life,

01:26:33   I would hope they would update to that within maybe six months of iOS coming out.

01:26:37   Ideally sooner, but you know.

01:26:39   But meanwhile, if it's an app where a widget doesn't really make a lot of sense,

01:26:43   I don't need them to do that.

01:26:45   So it all depends, like, what's going on in the environment around it.

01:26:49   I don't need new features just for the sake of new features,

01:26:52   but if the expectation of software in this area is moving this direction,

01:26:59   like for instance, if the OS gets redesigned,

01:27:03   apps look totally out of place and totally wrong until they update,

01:27:08   that's a shorter timeline expectation for that.

01:27:11   If, for instance, when they launch dark mode,

01:27:13   if your app doesn't support dark mode for a year after they launch dark mode,

01:27:16   like that kind of sucks.

01:27:18   But for most apps, as long as what I originally paid for continues to work

01:27:24   and they seem to reasonably fit into the surrounding ecosystem still,

01:27:29   I'm fine with that.

01:27:31   I think when people, if you ask people this question,

01:27:34   especially tech nerdy type people, like academically they might say,

01:27:38   "Well, kind of what Marco said, like, you know, I don't expect too much,

01:27:42   but you should add new features every once in a while

01:27:44   and keep up with what the OS and the platform is doing."

01:27:46   But it's one of those monkey paw wishes

01:27:48   in that if you actually had an app that kept adding stuff,

01:27:52   eventually it craps up your app.

01:27:55   Like, there is a certain point where an app has not achieved perfection

01:27:59   but found the right middle point between having way too many features

01:28:03   and way too few features, and that point is different for everybody.

01:28:05   But you really don't want an app that just, like, pursues everything.

01:28:09   Like, for example, Marco was talking about interactive widgets.

01:28:12   "Oh, my app doesn't even have widgets, but I want to use interactive widgets,

01:28:15   so I'm going to throw it in. And there's some new feature with ML,

01:28:17   I'm going to throw that, and I'm going to throw it."

01:28:18   Eventually it makes the app worse, not better.

01:28:21   So if you happen to subscribe to an app that's been out for many years

01:28:24   and kind of hit maturity, I don't think you should expect,

01:28:28   nor should you want, constant new feature additions,

01:28:31   because maybe the feature set is pretty close to, like, the right balance.

01:28:35   And maybe you can adjust it, "I wish that you had this feature

01:28:37   and didn't have this one," and there can be sort of, like,

01:28:39   oscillation around the center point, but constant addition of feature

01:28:43   makes apps that are too crapped up.

01:28:45   The flip side of that is, if you get an app that, you know,

01:28:49   feels like it's gotten to that stable point, but then never revisits that,

01:28:54   eventually you may be perfectly satisfied with the app and keep paying for it,

01:28:58   but eventually, say it's, like, five or ten years in,

01:29:00   and your friend has an app that does a similar job,

01:29:03   but it, like, looks totally different,

01:29:05   or does a whole bunch of different stuff,

01:29:07   you may not realize that the competitive market has moved up around that thing,

01:29:10   and even though you were perfectly satisfied paying the subscription,

01:29:12   you didn't realize, "Oh, actually, there's a new way to do this type of app

01:29:15   that is better, and this app hasn't kept up,

01:29:17   and it's time for me to jump ship and go elsewhere."

01:29:20   And those are all, like, personal decisions,

01:29:22   but, like, I definitely did not expect nor want an app

01:29:26   to constantly add new features to justify its subscription.

01:29:29   What justifies its subscription is what Margot said.

01:29:31   Does it still do the thing I wanted to do in the way I wanted to do it?

01:29:34   And some people, like, eventually get to the point

01:29:37   where they hate change so much that even if the entire competitive landscape

01:29:40   around your app has moved on and they're all much better,

01:29:42   you still want to use the old one that works the way it did five years ago

01:29:45   because that's what you're comfortable with, and that's fine, too.

01:29:48   So that's why it's different for every single person,

01:29:50   but, yeah, what I want from the app is continues working,

01:29:53   fixes any bugs, and I continue to like it for the reasons I like it,

01:29:59   and it's kind of what the fear we have about an update.

01:30:02   Oh, my favorite app just got updated.

01:30:04   A lot of people get filled with dread because, like,

01:30:05   did they just change the whole interface?

01:30:07   Did they remove a feature that I love?

01:30:08   Did they add a new feature that they think is better but is worse for me?

01:30:11   Updates are not always a positive, so I absolutely did not expect

01:30:15   or want them to constantly add new features.

01:30:17   And then, finally, Dennis Czapowicz writes,

01:30:20   "I've listened to multiple segments from you regarding backup strategies

01:30:23   and password managers, but I never heard you talk about your approach

01:30:25   to not losing access to your password manager.

01:30:28   I'm asking this because I was recently on a trip in which my phone almost died,

01:30:31   which would have caused me to lose access to all my passwords

01:30:33   until I returned home.

01:30:34   Do you have any specific strategy for having access to services

01:30:37   which may be needed when you are not home?"

01:30:39   The first option is carry more than one device,

01:30:42   or travel with more than one device.

01:30:44   With that being said, I don't really have a good answer for this.

01:30:47   I use 1Password somewhat begrudgingly now,

01:30:50   and so all of that stuff is synced with 1Password,

01:30:54   and I can get to it via the web if necessary,

01:30:57   but I don't have the super secret, like, it's not a GUID,

01:31:01   but it's sort of kind of like a GUID.

01:31:03   I don't have that memorized or anything like that.

01:31:05   I don't have that in an easily accessible place

01:31:07   if I was overseas or something like that.

01:31:09   So I really don't have a good answer for this.

01:31:11   I believe we've started with Marco the last couple times.

01:31:13   So, John, what's your answer?

01:31:15   I think you're right. Redundancy.

01:31:17   If you really need to have access to it on the road,

01:31:19   don't just bring one phone, because what if you drop it in a car,

01:31:23   runs over it or whatever, have multiple devices for it.

01:31:25   In the broader sense, not losing access means all those things

01:31:29   that people click through to get to what they wanted to do

01:31:32   that says, "Oh, print out these backup codes and put them in a safe place."

01:31:35   Like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do that later," and you don't do it.

01:31:37   That's a mistake. Do that. Print the backup codes.

01:31:39   Put them in a safety deposit box in a bank, right?

01:31:41   Like, do, like, especially for, like, the things that are the keys to the kingdom,

01:31:45   like, the things to access your main e-mail account,

01:31:48   which is what you register at all your accounts and all your other services with,

01:31:51   so you can use the "forgot my password" thing or whatever.

01:31:53   What if you lose all access to that, all your devices get wiped,

01:31:56   your house burns down, you don't have any devices with one password

01:31:59   or iCloud keychain, it's just, you know, again, the Cloud Sync ones,

01:32:02   you should still be able to get back by sending your Apple ID, but whatever.

01:32:05   Disaster strikes, physical backup, that's why those backup codes exist,

01:32:09   for your key accounts. Obviously not for everything,

01:32:11   but for, like, your key accounts, make sure you actually do the thing

01:32:14   they tell you to do, which is to print out the backup codes.

01:32:16   And don't pin them to your refrigerator.

01:32:18   Like, you know, put them in an actual safe place somewhere.

01:32:22   Have them offsite if possible.

01:32:24   If you have a safety deposit box at a bank, that's good.

01:32:27   You could have them over a relative's house and they're safe or something,

01:32:29   something like that. But that's broader than just travel.

01:32:32   Travel, I think, Casey nailed it. You know, redundancy, more than one device.

01:32:36   Marco.

01:32:37   You know, I also use one password.

01:32:39   I mean, I use one password and Apple iCloud keychain,

01:32:43   which is still exactly as messy as it sounds.

01:32:46   I still have not resolved that.

01:32:49   But anyway, you know, my one password, you know, they have, like,

01:32:52   these recovery code things, and I have those in a physically secure place.

01:32:57   I have them, like, you know, on paper in a physically secure place.

01:33:00   And I would say, you know, whether that's, like, you know, a safe somewhere,

01:33:04   a lock box, a bank safety deposit box, like, whatever it is for you,

01:33:08   I would suggest doing that.

01:33:10   You know, humans are pretty good at guarding physical important things.

01:33:14   You know, we have important documents that we have to keep as people on Earth

01:33:18   and things like that.

01:33:19   And so, you know, we've gotten good at, like, guard this physical piece of paper

01:33:22   as if it's very important to you.

01:33:24   And so whatever mechanism you have in place for that, I would say do that.

01:33:27   The risk to somebody like, you know, most of us is not super high

01:33:33   because most risk of, like, you know, losing access or having hackers

01:33:37   gain access to our accounts would usually happen remotely.

01:33:40   It would usually be Internet-based.

01:33:42   You know, not somebody breaking into your house and finding your lock box

01:33:45   and stuff like that.

01:33:46   Yeah, use those recovery codes. I don't use those for everything.

01:33:49   Like, a lot of those I will just store in 1Password or Apple Keychain

01:33:54   or both in some weird, messy way.

01:33:56   But, you know, use those -- use the backup codes, store them somewhere,

01:34:00   but for the really important stuff like 1Password itself or maybe Dropbox,

01:34:05   you know, depending on, like, you know, how you're using these different services,

01:34:07   maybe your Apple ID, the really important stuff that you would need to, like,

01:34:10   bootstrap a new device or a new access setup,

01:34:14   have actually the physical codes for those things so that you can, you know,

01:34:18   if all of your hardware is gone, whether it gets stolen

01:34:22   or maybe it gets destroyed in a flood or a fire or whatever,

01:34:24   if all your hardware is gone, how do you get back into your digital life?

01:34:28   If you can just -- if you, like, you buy a new laptop or iPhone,

01:34:31   how do you get back in?

01:34:33   Have a plan for that in some way that does not rely on you just having access

01:34:38   to another device.

01:34:39   That's it.

01:34:41   All right. Thank you to our sponsor this week, Squarespace,

01:34:44   and thank you to our members who support us directly.

01:34:46   You can join and hear all our fun new stuff at atp.fm/join.

01:34:50   And we will talk to you next week.

01:34:53   [music]

01:34:56   Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin.

01:35:00   'Cause it was accidental.

01:35:02   Accidental.

01:35:03   Oh, it was accidental.

01:35:05   Accidental.

01:35:06   John didn't do any research.

01:35:08   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:35:11   'Cause it was accidental.

01:35:13   Accidental.

01:35:14   Oh, it was accidental.

01:35:15   Accidental.

01:35:16   And you can find the show notes at atp.fm.

01:35:22   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:35:31   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M.

01:35:35   Anti-Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C.

01:35:40   U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A.

01:35:43   It's accidental.

01:35:44   Accidental.

01:35:46   They didn't mean to.

01:35:48   Accidental.

01:35:49   Accidental.

01:35:51   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:35:55   So, I don't even know what to do.

01:35:59   So, I am subscribed to UPS My Choice, is what it used to be called.

01:36:04   I don't know what it's called now.

01:36:06   What that lets you do is say, "Okay, I am the resident at such and such an address.

01:36:10   Whenever something is shipped to me via UPS, let me know.

01:36:13   And give me a tracking number and let me know some information about it."

01:36:17   So, a day or two ago, I got an email saying that something was coming to me

01:36:21   and was arriving, I guess, that day or whatever.

01:36:24   I was like, "Well, that's odd. I have no idea what this is."

01:36:27   And so I signed into UPS My Choice and it said that there was a 36-pound package coming to me,

01:36:33   which was a little bit confusing, to say the least.

01:36:38   And...

01:36:39   Dog food?

01:36:40   No, no. I didn't have anything that I knew about that was coming that was heavy.

01:36:44   And it is relatively unusual that we get shipments for anything but Chewy,

01:36:49   if it's dog food time, which it's almost, but not yet, and Amazon.

01:36:53   So, we do get UPS shipments and occasionally FedEx shipments, but it's fairly unusual.

01:36:57   And usually, Aaron and I will be aware of what's forthcoming.

01:37:01   So, I see there's a 36-pound shipment and I was able to log into My Choice

01:37:06   and get information about where it was shipped from.

01:37:08   And I genuinely don't remember the town, but it was quickly apparent to me

01:37:13   that Marco has been taking care of things within his house.

01:37:19   Now, what's funny is I think it was literally the day before that we had recorded the iMac tier list.

01:37:25   I guess this was Monday, because we recorded Sunday nights.

01:37:28   I guess this was Monday, maybe Tuesday.

01:37:30   So, it was like a day within 48 hours of recording the iMac tier list

01:37:33   where I had thoughts about a couple of iMacs.

01:37:37   And most of the iMacs didn't care.

01:37:39   A couple of them, though, I had some real big thoughts.

01:37:42   And one of them, and I won't name what it is, well, I guess I have to name what it is.

01:37:47   I will say that I have really big thoughts about the iMac Pro.

01:37:51   And I went to the front door after this package was delivered

01:37:56   and it was one of those, not trapezoidal, but one of those pizza wedge-shaped boxes.

01:38:01   And I knew immediately, well, actually, my first thought was,

01:38:05   "Oh, he sent me the LG 5K," which actually, I wouldn't mind having another.

01:38:09   You know, it would be kind of fun to have that as a porch monitor

01:38:12   rather than my beloved but not very remarkable 4K monitor.

01:38:16   And then it occurred to me, "Oh, no, no, no, no. This is not a rectangle. This is a pie.

01:38:21   Oh, God, he sent me an iMac."

01:38:23   And I opened it up and sure enough, I am now the reluctant owner of your old iMac Pro.

01:38:29   So, thanks, bud. What the hell am I supposed to do with this?

01:38:35   Did you open it?

01:38:37   I saw that there was an i-- what appeared to be an iMac in there.

01:38:41   I didn't look closely at it. Oh, God. Oh, no.

01:38:43   You're such an amateur about getting junk from Marco.

01:38:46   You have to look in the box. What are you doing?

01:38:48   Is it nearby?

01:38:49   It's downstairs, but I am happy to go get it.

01:38:52   Oh, Jesus. All right, do I need to go downstairs?

01:38:54   There could be a live animal in there.

01:38:55   Carry it upstairs and open it up.

01:38:56   All right, hold on. I'm going to disappear for a minute,

01:38:58   so God only knows what you're going to say while I'm gone.

01:39:00   But all right, I will let you know when I'm back. I am disappearing.

01:39:03   Keep the box closed and carry it upstairs closed.

01:39:07   No, you have to pause. We're going to have to edit this out.

01:39:09   Vamp for a minute, because I want to hear about John's stuff.

01:39:11   So, vamp. I'm leaving. I'm leaving. I'm leaving.

01:39:12   All right.

01:39:13   [music]

01:39:16   Okay, I'm back.

01:39:17   I want you to open it up on the air.

01:39:19   Okay, okay, hold on.

01:39:21   So, what I'm going to try to do here, because I don't have the slack on my microphone,

01:39:24   so hold on. Bear with me.

01:39:26   Hold on. I got to undo-- I'm going to regret--

01:39:28   Just use the microphone and the LG. It'll be fine.

01:39:30   [laughter]

01:39:32   Too soon.

01:39:33   All right, hold on. I got to take all this god darn Velcro off.

01:39:37   I'm going to have so many regrets when I try to put this together tomorrow.

01:39:40   It's a puppy.

01:39:41   That's not funny.

01:39:42   It's a 37-pound puppy.

01:39:44   I'm saying this, but you have to always--

01:39:46   Do you get a box like that and not actually look what's in it?

01:39:48   I thought I peeked at it, and I'm guessing--

01:39:50   You got to take everything out. Come on.

01:39:52   You don't know what he's hiding in there.

01:39:54   It could all be packed with Kindles.

01:39:56   It better not be. Oh, my God.

01:39:58   I think I ran out. I sent them all to you.

01:40:00   All right, I can't-- my microphone--

01:40:03   Okay, I can't do this very well.

01:40:05   I only got some slack, but I've got enough.

01:40:07   Oh, Jesus, this weighs a ton.

01:40:09   Don't drop the iMac, and don't put it anywhere near the windshield of any of your cars.

01:40:13   Aaron has now come in and is very concerned.

01:40:16   Can you imagine if he shatters his glass desk by touching it with the corner of the iMac Pro?

01:40:20   Oh, that'd be amazing.

01:40:22   Hold on. She's helping me lift it because I am chained to the desk here.

01:40:27   Oh, there's actually-- there's Tom Binns in here.

01:40:30   Ooh, I like that.

01:40:32   In the keyboard slot in the iMac box. All right.

01:40:35   Did you not send them peripherals because you were using them?

01:40:38   No, I did not look closely enough, clearly.

01:40:41   All right, there's the box that once had-- thank you, Aaron--

01:40:44   that once had a power supply in it.

01:40:46   Hold on. Let me put this back on here.

01:40:50   A power supply? What are you talking about?

01:40:52   The cord. Oh, there's cords in here.

01:40:54   Oh, yeah, the power cord.

01:40:56   Oh, mother of God, this looks like the connector for an LG.

01:40:59   All right, hold on.

01:41:01   How do we get this out? Oh, God.

01:41:04   I just lifted the goddamn thing, and I can tell from the stupid lifting mechanism

01:41:09   this is the LG 5K. You're finally rid of it.

01:41:12   [laughs]

01:41:15   It fits perfectly in an iMac Pro box.

01:41:17   So, actually, I need to take a picture of this because it is flawless. Hold on.

01:41:22   The live listeners won't be able to see this.

01:41:25   My office is a freaking mess right now.

01:41:27   Hold on. I've got to take a picture of this because it fits flawlessly in the box.

01:41:31   Oh, my God. This is perfect.

01:41:33   Well, hey, now I can tell you I am not the reluctant owner of your old iMac Pro.

01:41:37   I'm the happy owner of a second LG 5K.

01:41:41   That's super delightful.

01:41:42   So you looked in the box, and you couldn't tell the difference between an LG 5K and an iMac Pro?

01:41:46   I only glanced at it.

01:41:47   I had that big white, kind of foamy wrapper that goes around the iMac.

01:41:53   Exactly. That's all I saw. And it looked right to me.

01:41:55   I still had that, so I put that around the LG because it fits perfectly.

01:41:58   I'm going to put it in slack, and then maybe, Marco, this is not a great picture because it's dark in here, blah, blah, blah.

01:42:03   But maybe, Marco, you can...

01:42:05   You can turn the lights on. It's okay.

01:42:07   No, because the... Well, first of all, I want to remain sleepy in my sleepy clothes and my sleepy shirt, but beyond that...

01:42:13   You just lifted a 40-pound box.

01:42:15   I know. Tell me about it.

01:42:16   But beyond that, the more important thing is that there's a piddly little teeny tiny light bulb in the overhead fan,

01:42:22   which I've now been forbidden to turn on during recording.

01:42:25   And even if I did turn it on, the light bulb is currently blown because I never use it.

01:42:29   So there is no light in this room.

01:42:31   It was like a scene from Blair Witch, the lighting that you've got going on in this room.

01:42:36   So anyway, so I've just put it in slack for you two, and maybe we can make it the chapter art for this chapter.

01:42:42   What's missing there is a gigantic, silver, dark silver space gray foot of an iMac Pro.

01:42:47   Well, at a glance, it looked like it, especially because you can see more of the foot now,

01:42:51   but Marco had intelligently put the box, the cardboard box that slots in that spot.

01:42:57   So I saw something that was dark that was the shape of an iMac that was in an iMac Pro box.

01:43:01   It's clearly an iMac Pro.

01:43:03   And I got to be honest with you, I was not happy about receiving this iMac Pro,

01:43:08   because what the f*** am I supposed to do with an iMac Pro today?

01:43:11   Are you happy you're getting a second 5K?

01:43:13   Yes, I actually am! I genuinely am!

01:43:16   Which is going to be great.

01:43:17   Even after the start of recording today, when your 5K may have been to blame?

01:43:22   That's true, actually! Now I have a redundant 5K! See, it's perfect!

01:43:26   Flawless victory! Thanks, bud! I appreciate it.

01:43:29   There's a house in our town that, like, every summer as decoration,

01:43:33   they set up a big row of bobbleheads on their front retaining wall.

01:43:37   That's going to be your desk. It's just going to be like this row of bobblehead monitors, just bobble-obble-obble.

01:43:42   The series of 5Ks all shaking back and forth.

01:43:44   Hand to God, I was trying to lift this thing out of the cardboard shell that rests in,

01:43:48   and I went to lift, because it's sitting upright,

01:43:51   and I went to lift up from the base of the screen,

01:43:55   and that bastard just came flying up, just like that piece of crap LG stand loves to do.

01:44:01   And I was pretty damn sure that was the LG 5K,

01:44:04   but the moment that thing came flying almost out of the box when I lifted it up,

01:44:08   oh, nope, that's 5K. I know that piece of crap stand anywhere.

01:44:11   Thanks, bud. I feel much better now. And a couple of Tom Bins, too.

01:44:14   You love me. You really love me.

01:44:16   So, when you say Tom Bins, what are they?

01:44:18   Like little pouches?

01:44:19   Yeah, yeah, like little cable organizer pouches.

01:44:21   Yeah, I had some. So, yeah, so I was, you know, cleaning out the house to sell it,

01:44:26   and, you know, when you are getting ready to move as you're packing things,

01:44:31   you're like, "Do I really want to pay to move this and then have this in the new place?"

01:44:36   Like, do I like this thing enough that I want to actually move it?

01:44:40   And that can make you make some real honest decisions.

01:44:44   And it can be really difficult to make some of those decisions.

01:44:47   This was not a difficult one. This one was like, as I'm, you know,

01:44:52   this is what I was using last week when we recorded and I edited the show last week.

01:44:56   And as we're doing all that, I'm like, "Do I want to move this thing that I hate?"

01:45:00   I hate this monitor so much. So, instead, I had to pack it into something.

01:45:06   So, instead of packing it into a box onto the box truck, I'm having to haul it back and forth

01:45:11   and take up space and move it into the new place eventually and deal with it.

01:45:14   I'm like, "You know what? I'm just going to pack this into whatever box I can find in my attic

01:45:19   that it fits in and mail it to Virginia." So, there you go.

01:45:23   Thanks, bud. So, now I'm happy to report, as of minutes ago, well, actually, as of days ago,

01:45:27   I just didn't realize it, as of minutes ago, if I go to work on the porch,

01:45:31   which I actually intended to do today because it was gorgeous here and then never got around to it,

01:45:35   now I can do so by using an LG 5K, which is a much better experience than my LG 4K.

01:45:42   So, this is delightful.

01:45:43   It can be your outdoor-rated monitor.

01:45:45   Yes, exactly right. Now it's my kink, too. Look at that.

01:45:48   [Laughter]

01:45:49   All right, Jon, since you apparently did a better job of investigating and interrogating your gift shipment,

01:45:55   can you tell me what you learned about what Marco shipped you?

01:45:58   I was going to say that if he actually had sent you the iMac Pro,

01:46:02   I would say maybe he sent the wrong shipments to the wrong people, but now that he's here at the 5K,

01:46:06   he sent the right thing because I sure as hell don't want that thing.

01:46:08   [Laughter]

01:46:09   It might have been a better troll to send it to you.

01:46:11   Yeah. And I have to say, to start, Marco occasionally does this, and it's a very nice thing that he does.

01:46:15   He's sending us things, and he makes it sound like, "Oh, I'm getting rid of my junk,"

01:46:18   but honestly, these are things that have value, and it's nice that he takes the time

01:46:21   and spends the money to ship them to his friends instead of just, like, free-cycling them

01:46:26   or trying to sell them or whatever. So, I just want to say thank you to Marco.

01:46:29   It's a very nice thing that you do when you get rid of your old tech stuff and you send it to us.

01:46:32   We appreciate it.

01:46:33   Yes, especially now that I know what's in there, and it's not just an iMac Pro

01:46:37   that I was planning to just bring to Apple and get store credit for

01:46:41   because I didn't know what the hell else to do with it.

01:46:43   But no, I don't even want to think about how much it was to ship this damn thing to me, so thank you.

01:46:46   It was like 50 bucks, and the best 50 bucks I ever spent, I think.

01:46:50   [Laughter]

01:46:51   It's a nice thing. But that said, the things that Marco sends are sometimes puzzling,

01:46:58   and I think this is the biggest stumper that I've gotten ever.

01:47:02   Oh, no.

01:47:03   First, when Marco is in this mode and he's like, "I'm getting rid of my stuff,

01:47:07   and I'm going to be nice and pay to ship it to my friends,"

01:47:10   one thing that isn't in his mind is, "Let me find out how I can pack this safely."

01:47:14   [Laughter]

01:47:15   That's why he uses Kindles, for example, as packing material.

01:47:18   "Oh, there's a gap between this tech product and the edge of the box.

01:47:21   What if I just wedge three or four Kindles in there? There. Now it doesn't move around as much."

01:47:25   That's about the extent of his packing abilities.

01:47:28   So I have to say, the contents of this box, it was in a cardboard box,

01:47:32   and there was no padding whatsoever on anything.

01:47:36   It was like the thinnest piece of corrugated cardboard you can possibly imagine,

01:47:39   and then stuff.

01:47:42   And it was packed in to try to say, "Well, I think he was actually looking in the house.

01:47:45   What kind of things do I have that I could wedge in here so things don't move around too much?"

01:47:48   But that's, again, the extent of the packing.

01:47:50   That is correct.

01:47:51   Because it looks like I need something that's skinny, that will fit here, that will fill this space.

01:47:56   So what he found, let's start.

01:47:59   There is something that's a Blu-ray reader and writer.

01:48:02   It's the Buffalo, that popular one that everyone was saying,

01:48:05   "You should get this one if you want to rip and write Blu-ray optical discs."

01:48:10   It's got a USB-connected, DC power connector, so the cables are in there and the things are there.

01:48:15   I already have a Blu-ray reader. I think I have a Samsung, but I don't actually have a writer,

01:48:19   so it's nice to have this, assuming the writer still works and it wasn't just packing material.

01:48:23   So that one, it's like, "Okay, I don't think I really need this. I've never actually written a Blu-ray,

01:48:27   but I do read them occasionally if my other one dies. Now I have a second one.

01:48:31   It's small, so whatever, although it's like micro-USB if you remember what that connector looks like. It's gross."

01:48:36   But anyway, so there's that.

01:48:38   Then there is a plastic spindle, if you remember those from back in the day, of writeable Blu-ray discs.

01:48:44   Hey, convenient. I still don't quite know why I would ever want to write anything to a Blu-ray disc,

01:48:49   but if I did, I don't have to buy them.

01:48:51   Oh, it's thrilling.

01:48:52   Assuming the discs in there aren't all bad at this point.

01:48:55   Oh, they won't be, because did you see what kind they are?

01:48:58   No, I didn't. Let's see, what does it say?

01:49:00   They're M-disks.

01:49:01   Permanent storage solutions. Designed to last up to a thousand years.

01:49:06   Oh, goodness.

01:49:07   Up to, it says, though, so that could be like 30 seconds, right?

01:49:10   Well, yeah, technically, yeah.

01:49:11   Because 30 seconds is also up to a thousand years.

01:49:14   So maybe I'll try that. Maybe I'll try writing some stuff.

01:49:17   But that's not the main concept of this box. That was packing material to be wedged against the main contents of this box.

01:49:22   Those were spacers.

01:49:23   Yeah. Given that I've described these spacers, Casey, can you think of what might be similar dimensions to a spindle of optical discs and a Blu-ray writer?

01:49:31   How many optical discs was it?

01:49:33   It's like a stack. It's like an inch-high stack, and then the Blu-ray writer is like, you know, it's a square about the size of a Blu-ray.

01:49:39   Oh, God, I don't know. Kindles? I have no idea. USB Pre?

01:49:44   I would never get rid of one of those.

01:49:46   Yeah, fair.

01:49:47   What is in this box? I'll put the picture of this amazing packing jog on our Slack so you can look at it.

01:49:53   It's two full-size home pods.

01:49:56   [Laughter]

01:49:58   Just look at this packing job, Casey. Look at the piece of cardboard between them. Who is he kidding with that piece of cardboard?

01:50:03   This is my separator material, see? It's like padding. I'm amazed that these things came to me.

01:50:09   I'm not going to say unscathed because the home pods are a little worse for wear, but honestly, I can't tell if that's damage incurred during shipment or damage incurred when they were at Marco's house. I can't tell.

01:50:19   Oh, my God.

01:50:20   So now here's the conundrum. All right, so I already have a full-size home pod. I got one when they were released, right? And it's in my living room doing its thing.

01:50:27   I've got these two things. I'm like, "Oh, two home pods. Oh, well, first I thought, are these the ones that were flaking out at Marco's?" Yeah, they're kind of all flaking out.

01:50:34   They all flake out, yeah.

01:50:35   Yeah. I mean, so far mine hasn't been mostly, but I barely use it. But I'm like, "Okay, well, I'm sure I'll be able to find a place for these in the house."

01:50:41   And since I've got them, I've been puzzling it over, and I cannot figure out what the hell I'm going to do with these things.

01:50:47   [Laughter]

01:50:48   Neither could I. That's why I said it to you.

01:50:50   I went into my daughter's room the other day, and she was listening to music on her Google Home Mini, the really, really tiny Puck thing.

01:50:57   And she's listening to music on it. I'm like, "Oh, this is it." I immediately go, "Boom."

01:51:01   Perfect.

01:51:02   Would you like me to replace that Google Home Mini with a home pod? It'll sound way better, and you'll have a home pod in your room. Isn't that cool?

01:51:08   You could even have a stereo pair. And before I could get the words out of her mouth, she's like, "Nope, nope, nope, nope."

01:51:12   Can you guess why she didn't want it?

01:51:14   Because she likes the Google stuff? Because Siri sucks.

01:51:16   Yeah, I'll go with Siri sucks.

01:51:18   You're not thinking like a teenager. Too big! It's too big.

01:51:22   The Google Home Mini is tiny and unobtrusive, and this thing is giant.

01:51:26   Here's the thing. We talk about this with the iMac. Why does it have to be so thin? Who cares about that or whatever?

01:51:31   Non-tech people, people who aren't into tech things as a hobby, do not want technology products to be dominant in their space.

01:51:41   The home pod is too big for a teenage girl's bedroom if she doesn't care about home pods or any of that tech stuff or whatever.

01:51:50   It takes up too much volume. It is too prominent. It's too ugly. It draws too much attention to itself.

01:51:56   Whereas the tiny little puck of the Google Home Mini is practically buried under the other stuff that's there. It's so unobtrusive.

01:52:01   And then, secondarily, she's not because she never wants to do anything that I tell her to do.

01:52:05   Fair.

01:52:06   At least she's self-aware, but it's totally true.

01:52:08   I mean, she is a teenager. That's their job.

01:52:11   So, I'm like, "What am I going to do with these?" I briefly thought about replacing the speakers that are on my desk for my Mac.

01:52:18   No, you can't do that. It's too laggy.

01:52:20   Exactly. I remember when we talked about it, I'm like, "No, I don't want to deal with the lag."

01:52:24   Not only laggy, but do I want flakiness involving audio on my computer? No, I do not.

01:52:29   My speakers are cheap, cruddy speakers, but they're connected directly with an analog audio cable to the back of my Mac, and there's no latency, and they work every single time.

01:52:38   So, that's out.

01:52:40   I'm looking around the house like, "Well, I've got one HomePod in here. If I put the other HomePod, could I get a stereo pair?"

01:52:46   But I have surround speakers in that room. Or the fancy speakers that I bought see past episodes.

01:52:50   There's not really any place for, like, to even just do stereo music.

01:52:54   And my one big HomePod is buried in the corner behind everything as a punishment for being bad.

01:52:59   It's got photos in front of it. We use it to play Christmas carols when we're decorating the tree.

01:53:05   And when we're decorating the tree, it's actually relocated to the other side of the room, but that's it.

01:53:08   But if I'm going to play stereo music, I have a much better full surround stereo speaker system that I can run.

01:53:15   And I don't have a place to put two HomePods if I wanted to let them do their HomePod-y thing.

01:53:20   I don't know where they would go. And plus, I have two extra ones, not just one.

01:53:24   I thought about putting them as the TV speakers to the upstairs TV that was next to me.

01:53:27   My wife said I barely use that TV and I don't want two giant HomePods in our bedroom.

01:53:31   And honestly, there's not really a place for them there either.

01:53:34   The kitchen... I mean, there's not a lot of place that we... No one really listens to music out loud in the house.

01:53:41   So, I'm still puzzling over. Right now, they're just sitting on the desk behind me, looking very sad,

01:53:45   but their cords are dangling off the end of the desk.

01:53:48   And I don't know what I'm going to do with them, but I'll figure something out.

01:53:51   I mean, worst case scenario, I could like... I should have offered them to my son, we just took them to college the other day.

01:53:56   Do you want these for your dorm room? He almost certainly doesn't, but maybe he would say, "Sure, why not?" or something like that.

01:54:02   But we have to... We're driving a mini-fridge out to him in a little bit because we're taking separate trips for various reasons.

01:54:09   Oh, because your car isn't big enough to hold it all? Mr. Sedan is all you need?

01:54:12   No, it is absolutely big enough to hold it all, but I didn't want to pack it all in.

01:54:15   And also, you have to remember... So, when your kid goes to school close to where you live, the phenomenon of,

01:54:24   "Oh, I don't have to make sure I have everything because I'll just remember what I don't have and ask for a second trip."

01:54:29   That is absolutely in effect. By the time we got home, my text message is, "Oh, can you bring me this and this and this and this?"

01:54:36   And we legit forgot at least one thing. We forgot his mattress topper thing, which we meant to bring with us because it was in the basement.

01:54:42   So, we're going out there a second time no matter what.

01:54:44   So, anyway, maybe these will come with me and I'll say, "Hey, you want these?" And he'll probably say no for the same variety of reasons.

01:54:49   Anyway, I'm puzzling it over. But yeah, now I've got two sad-looking big HomePods and a bunch of optical discs.

01:54:57   Fun.

01:54:58   Yeah, at least they're not that big.

01:55:00   I mean, they're the full-size ones.

01:55:02   I mean, just like the box. I didn't get a gigantic box around if you're going to my house or whatever.

01:55:05   And honestly, as soon as I saw the package coming, I kind of had a notion of what they might be, but the second I saw it sitting on my porch, I'm like, "Oh, it's HomePods."

01:55:13   And I can just tell from the weight and the dimensionality, "I know what a big HomePod's like. That's what's in here."

01:55:20   Yeah, because the big HomePods are very heavy. Like, they're very dense objects. Like, you pick one up, you're like, "Whoa!"

01:55:27   So, do you have any suggestions for what I should do with these? Because it's really stumping me.

01:55:31   Like, I'm not against them. They're good speakers. It's two good speakers and I can airplay to them. Like, they should have a function somewhere in my life.

01:55:38   I would strongly advise not using them in a stereo pair, if that changes things.

01:55:44   Why?

01:55:46   Stereo pair HomePods are so buggy. Standalone HomePods are bad enough.

01:55:52   Standalone HomePods are themselves quite buggy, but the bugginess goes up dramatically with stereo pairs, which is a shame because so does the sound quality.

01:56:00   And so, it sucks that you can't really use them in the way they sound the best if you want them to be reliable at all.

01:56:06   Oh, I thought of a use. I thought of a use. Go on, continue.

01:56:08   I would say, like, anywhere that you might be able to put a single HomePod that maybe could use an improvement in volume or quality, put this there. Or mail them to Casey.

01:56:19   No, I don't want them.

01:56:21   I don't want to, you know, keep sending these, like, the sisterhood of the traveling HomePods.

01:56:26   But now, here's the thought. So, when COVID started, we made my wife, like, a little home office downstairs. I think we talked about this. We got her a nice, fancy standing desk motorized thing.

01:56:37   And her work gave her a bunch of, like, work at home equipment, including a gigantic, like, 32-inch Dell monitor or something or other. It's not retina, but it's huge.

01:56:45   Anyway, she's got her office down there. And at some point, I got the Sonos Toblerone thing. What is that called? The Rome?

01:56:53   Yeah, the Rome is the one that looks like a little Toblerone, right? The triangle?

01:56:57   Yeah.

01:56:58   Anyway, she's got that down there, but that's, you know, not a good speaker.

01:57:02   No.

01:57:03   So, that means she wanted that, but she said, you know, she had, like, a little mini Bluetooth speaker, and she saw that I had my Roam that I used in the shower. She's like, "Oh, I want one of those." So, I got her one.

01:57:11   So, she does listen to music out loud. And so, I should bring both HomePods down there, because there's plenty of room down there. Like, it's just her office area. There's not a lot of junk down there.

01:57:19   The only downside is, if they are flaky, I'm going to hear immediately, "Just give me back my Sonos thing." Because at least it plays music when I want it to play.

01:57:26   It's worth a try.

01:57:28   Yeah, I'm definitely going to try that. I mean, she knows I got them, and she didn't immediately say, "Can I have them in my office?" So, I think she might be kind of wary of them too, but she does listen to the program.

01:57:36   So, I'll make a second attempt at pitching her on having these in her office. But she might also say, "They're kind of big," and, you know, whatever.

01:57:42   I mean, they sound amazing for their size too. What's so frustrating to me about the HomePods is that I love the way they sound. They sound great.

01:57:51   They're just really hard to use, because they lack any kind of input. And so, I can't bypass their flaky smarts, because you have to still use AirPlay to connect to them. So, that's no good.

01:58:06   There's no line-in. There's no input method at all besides the flakiness. But once you can actually get them to connect and use them, they sound incredible.

01:58:16   But that's just such a huge asterisk and such a huge downside for them. It makes it really hard to use them.

01:58:22   You could have just gotten a bunch more Sonos stuff, and that would have been fine. I guess Marco isn't sending it to you for free though.

01:58:27   Yeah, again, I didn't have a need for this. But I'm just going to put them down there and not tell her, and just get them set up somehow. And next time she goes down there, I'll start playing music with them. And she'll be like, "Whoa, where's this great music coming from?"

01:58:38   That's optimistic.

01:58:40   That's how we imagine it will work, but that's not how it's going to actually work.

01:58:43   I think it'll be more like you'll be standing on the stairs trying to make your phone connect to them. And you'll be like, "Hold on, hold on. Just wait. Just hold on."

01:58:51   "One more second. One more second."

01:58:52   "Just let me get this going."

01:58:54   More likely, she's going to go down there and she's going to say, "Why did you put your junk by my desk? Get that off of there."

01:58:59   She's going to think I put them down there to store them, not that I'm trying to do a nice thing. And it's like, you can listen to music.

01:59:04   That stuff that Marco sent you is your problem. Don't get it near my office.

01:59:08   [beeping]

01:59:10   [ Silence ]