The Accidental Tech Podcast

139: I've Seen This Train Before


00:00:00   Source when the macro man. Looks like we're not going to get this year. [TS]

00:00:04   If we haven't gotten it yet like they just did this i Mac. Update. [TS]

00:00:07   Yeah I feel like I've been hearing from various sources that. [TS]

00:00:11   It's coming it's coming it's coming it's coming any second any second any second any second but. [TS]

00:00:16   I don't know yet a fifteen inch MacBook Pro is. It's it's such the workhorse of the industry like. [TS]

00:00:23   It gets so little attention relatively speaking like in media coverage [TS]

00:00:27   and people like us talking about will no not us but most of our podcasts. Talking about it. [TS]

00:00:34   Talking about laptops and everything everyone talking about the new MacBook or a new map a carriage or whatever. [TS]

00:00:38   But when I go to conferences and events and ice or ice or go to some of his office and I see other developers working. [TS]

00:00:46   By far the most common machine and use is the fifteen in fact a pro completely agree. [TS]

00:00:51   I get really is like the like the quiet workhorse of the entire industry. [TS]

00:00:55   Yeah basically if you're doing something that's. That requires any more horsepower than a MacBook Air. Can give you. [TS]

00:01:02   Then immediately jump directly to fifteen inch MacBook Pro. Do not pass go do not pass thirteen inch. [TS]

00:01:08   Do not collect two hundred dollars. That's a reference to. Last week I brought up by thing and we all talked about the. [TS]

00:01:17   The thing where the i Phone six S. and Six S. Plus C.P. [TS]

00:01:20   User being manufactured by two different companies Samsung and T S M C. [TS]

00:01:24   And some early benchmarks at the time were showing that the T S M C one got significantly better battery life in the [TS]

00:01:30   Samsung when it was something on the order of like fifteen or twenty percent better battery life. Under certain C.P.U. [TS]

00:01:35   Stressing benchmarks. And this this briefly became a thing. And Apple kind of squash a shooting a P.R. [TS]

00:01:43   Statement to a bunch of Web sites that basically said it was it was the most Apple least. [TS]

00:01:50   It meant every It basically said nothing about whether it was true or not but it sounded like a denial and the. [TS]

00:01:58   The reality of what they said is that. Yes there is a difference but they say it's within two to three percent. [TS]

00:02:07   Not fifteen or twenty percent under their testing and that the testing that revealed this larger difference.. [TS]

00:02:13   Was considered invalid or are important because it only showed. Basically maxing out the C.P.U.. [TS]

00:02:21   And so if you were doing things that max out the C.P.U. Then there is a noticeable difference. [TS]

00:02:28   If you are not maxing out the C.P.U. and Most people are not maxing out most of the time. Then the difference. [TS]

00:02:33   Still exists but is smaller. [TS]

00:02:36   I haven't seen enough like really honest to goodness data to make me feel strongly one way or the other. [TS]

00:02:42   John what's your take on all this. [TS]

00:02:44   I'm still kind of interested in what where the difference comes from I don't know enough about the gig bench thing [TS]

00:02:49   and of course Apple statement is not very specific they thing. [TS]

00:02:52   They put the of that benchmark by saying that it spends an unrealistic amount of time at the highest C.P.U. [TS]

00:02:59   Performance state and do they mean C.P.U.'s in the whole system on a chip. To the mean just the C.P.U. [TS]

00:03:04   Part of the system on the chip. I don't know geek benches exercising the G.P.U. At the same time. [TS]

00:03:10   Like what could account for the large difference. [TS]

00:03:13   If it's only through their present regular test is that just because you know on regular regular You said you are [TS]

00:03:18   maxing the C.P.U. All the time. [TS]

00:03:22   Some people heard of games like what if I'm playing a game that is close to maximum see beauty entire time I'm playing. [TS]

00:03:26   And then does it come back into the twenty or thirty percent range or does that no matter because the game. [TS]

00:03:32   Stresses the G.P.U. and It turns out the one with the good you know this is not enough details here. [TS]

00:03:37   When I was trying to think of like maybe one is better uses less energy. [TS]

00:03:42   Coming from and going into low power state or you know spinning parts of the ship up or down and the other one. [TS]

00:03:49   You know is better at sustained high. C.P.U. [TS]

00:03:53   Usage but if you were to throttle on off on off it would get worse for I don't know. [TS]

00:03:57   It's mysterious all we have is Apple's word to go on. [TS]

00:04:01   I don't think anyone has done any real world test yet you would think if it was twenty to thirty percent in real world [TS]

00:04:06   we would know about it not from someone running a benchmark quote from actual people saying. Boy I'm off. [TS]

00:04:11   My i Phone success is terrible and someone else saying my i Phone success is great and I mean. [TS]

00:04:15   but people are saying that anyway but they probably will have the same C.P.U. Anyway. [TS]

00:04:21   It's mysterious Apple is not going to really give us any information on it as Apple says in a statement you know. [TS]

00:04:27   Every chip we ship meets Apple's high standards Bob involved off I guess they're gonna. You know they're going to make. [TS]

00:04:32   I think it is literally true that in Apple's testing. [TS]

00:04:36   The worst chip like the bad one or whatever in the bench test passes Apple's criteria. [TS]

00:04:41   It still means that perhaps the other ones. [TS]

00:04:44   Exceed Apple's criterion if you get one of those you're kind of lucky and so it is still kind of like a lottery [TS]

00:04:48   but without more information [TS]

00:04:50   and I'm not sure how we're going to get more information not more information I don't even know if you're lucky unless [TS]

00:04:55   you spend all day running that benchmark. [TS]

00:04:57   How lucky are you if you get the quote unquote good one that something like like their statement really. [TS]

00:05:03   It wasn't actually like everyone's going to treating it as like confirmation that this is wrong. [TS]

00:05:08   But in fact it was confirmation that it's right that there is a difference. [TS]

00:05:13   But you probably won't notice it in average use. And it wasn't techie didn't go into the details that just. [TS]

00:05:19   It's essentially it's first the fact that they made a statement at all. It's interesting but second. [TS]

00:05:25   But their statement said is like we feel we are covered. [TS]

00:05:28   We feel everything we've said is true even though there's a difference. [TS]

00:05:32   And we think the difference A small in real world usage. [TS]

00:05:35   The end so you're right is basically it's a confirmation of the thing [TS]

00:05:37   but they're not going to go into us to protect the detail and. [TS]

00:05:40   Bottom line as long as the dive on success get OK battery life. [TS]

00:05:44   Compared to what six got which it probably does because everyone's taxes are like a year old right. [TS]

00:05:48   Who gets a success most people are going to get a success. A month after they get a sex. [TS]

00:05:53   It's everything seems to be fine. Yeah. It's a non-story. [TS]

00:05:57   But from a technical perspective I'm still very interested in how exactly this synthetic benchmark.. [TS]

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00:08:21   So big week for Marco. You released overcast to. I did. Yeah. [TS]

00:08:26   I even stopped seeing the point though in my marketing materials because I thought it sounded better without it. [TS]

00:08:32   It's delightfully Apple Yeah if you like [TS]

00:08:34   when I leave the cents off menus that fancy restaurants are basically all restaurants now. [TS]

00:08:38   They don't even give you a dollar sign it just like twelve. Yeah exactly. [TS]

00:08:41   That's the experimenting has proven that makes people more willing to buy overpriced meals. [TS]

00:08:47   Well it looks fancier if you give it like a nice a nice Sarah Funt. [TS]

00:08:51   And you just have the description of the item with as much white space around it as possible with many words on there [TS]

00:08:56   IS possible you can understand. And it's off to the right somewhere as has like twelve. [TS]

00:09:00   It's just a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Space space base. Thirty four. And the OK that's good news. [TS]

00:09:09   Well we'll talk about overpriced things here in a minute [TS]

00:09:12   but why don't we start with one of the marquee features of overcast to. You finally got streaming working. I did. Yeah. [TS]

00:09:20   I mean you know there's not that much to say about it I don't think. [TS]

00:09:24   I talked here before about all the different times I tried to get it working in the past and. [TS]

00:09:30   I just tried so many different approaches [TS]

00:09:32   and I tried I tried the correct approach multiple times before actually getting getting my side of it right. [TS]

00:09:39   This is using Apple's low level. Audio file stream A.P.I. and It's incredibly low level and incredibly unforgiving. [TS]

00:09:47   And also pretty sparsely documented. That the kind of the core audiotapes tile. [TS]

00:09:55   Of their documentation is to be really conservative with the words. So there is like. Some like my new little detail. [TS]

00:10:04   You have to. You have to kind of read it like a lawyer. And you know to really understand like oh. [TS]

00:10:09   What is this exactly are you know what this says audio sample what kind of audio samples that are what kind of [TS]

00:10:14   timestamp is this what time space is and things like that it's really tricky to get right but I got it right. [TS]

00:10:19   Eventually. And it with with. Which I did not uncover any of my testing and my bid on didn't cover it either. [TS]

00:10:27   And that is. It doesn't it doesn't play a C. Files where the header is at the end of the file. [TS]

00:10:35   So this is a go over quickly. Why why it does this and why this is going to be tricky to fix but basically. The A.P.I. [TS]

00:10:45   Who's streaming A.P.I. So I give it bites. [TS]

00:10:48   And I tell it OK I'm at this point in the file here the bytes from that point. And I just stream it in and then. [TS]

00:10:53   It tells me. OK we got the header. We got the properties we got like you know anything you need to know. [TS]

00:10:58   And our now ready to give you samples so here's here's the audio samples. And as you. As you come through. [TS]

00:11:04   You know as you pace through the bytes. It gives you the samples for it. [TS]

00:11:07   The problem is that requires the header data about the file which tells you really important things like the sample [TS]

00:11:13   rate of the audio how many how many channels Amano were stereo [TS]

00:11:17   and you can't really decode the audio properly until you have those basics. [TS]

00:11:22   With M P three it's fine with M P three It puts everything important at the beginning of the file. [TS]

00:11:27   And also the beginning of every header of every little chunk of the file so with N P three. [TS]

00:11:32   You can basically decode an M P three. Starting from anywhere in the file. [TS]

00:11:37   You just kind of skim ahead for a certain by pattern and there's a frame and you can just start. [TS]

00:11:40   It's amazing it is so M P three is so simple. If you want to. If you want to have embedded meditate or chapters. [TS]

00:11:46   All of that is shoved up front in the idea three v two block on an M P three. [TS]

00:11:50   So you can just read the first couple kilobytes a couple hundred kilobytes of his artwork in there. N.P. [TS]

00:11:55   Three is amazing. It's a great format. And the patents all expire in a couple years. Most of them already have. [TS]

00:12:01   So the last of the patents expire in a couple of years. N.P. Three is great unfortunately about. [TS]

00:12:09   I think less so much as it was something like three to five percent of pod cast that overcast. [TS]

00:12:15   Has it next so whatever I know about. In the whole directory. About three to five percent of episodes. Use a C. [TS]

00:12:22   Format or. And for a armadas all the same format. The the quick time. Mob slash em for a format is. [TS]

00:12:31   Less ideal that M P three. On the Reading side. [TS]

00:12:35   It is this incredibly like architecture astronaut designed format where you can contain anything [TS]

00:12:41   and you can embed anything you know you can have all these arbitrary tracks [TS]

00:12:43   and ability that is a much more versatile format an M P three has a can is it's like this kind of grand container [TS]

00:12:49   format. But it's really hard to read in a way. It without having the whole file. [TS]

00:12:55   You read it and it gives you this like tree structure of atoms and within each atom is more Adams and more structures. [TS]

00:13:02   And the the biggest problem is. [TS]

00:13:04   Well first of all the chapters are disaster chapters are interspersed with the entire file. [TS]

00:13:09   So you can't easily stream them. And the other problem is that it is possible to put to write all the audio data. [TS]

00:13:17   Up front and then to write the headers at the end. So without reading the end of the file. [TS]

00:13:24   You don't know things like what format the audio is in so you can't decode it. Which means you can't stream that. [TS]

00:13:30   So if you've ever seen on like a file export dialog. [TS]

00:13:34   You've ever seen those little check boxes the say something along the lines of optimize for internet. [TS]

00:13:38   Or make it stream of all or fast start something like that. [TS]

00:13:43   What those do is they set and they tell the encoder to write that header up front. [TS]

00:13:49   Don't wait to all the data is written and then right at the end. Write the header up front or at least. [TS]

00:13:54   Go back and rewrite it upfront after you're done. [TS]

00:13:56   So that it's not sitting at the end of a file so that people can stream it. [TS]

00:13:59   It's not there is not reliable support for Bahrain support for by Ranger. US that you can grab the end of the file. [TS]

00:14:06   That's a separate issue I can grab the end of the file but the audio files from A.P.I. [TS]

00:14:11   Is not compatible with this at all. So I actually do byte ranges for. You know for seeking but the way I do it is. [TS]

00:14:19   I read the beginning of the file every time to get the headers. [TS]

00:14:23   And then once I've gotten the headers in the audio data starts. [TS]

00:14:25   Then I jump ahead and send a second by request for the part I actually need if for if it's further ahead.. [TS]

00:14:31   So the problem is this. This audio file stream A.P.I. Literally just does not support this at all like this. [TS]

00:14:38   This layout of having the header at the end even if I jump ahead get it and then give it back to say P.R. [TS]

00:14:42   Even if I have the whole file on disk that if you add is not support that. So my options. To fix this problem. [TS]

00:14:49   I'll get back to bite rings in a minute. My options to fix this problem. [TS]

00:14:52   Are either to just well not support those files which is not a great idea. [TS]

00:14:57   I've already heard from a few people who was into some shows like that that are very unhappy and it's understandable. [TS]

00:15:03   Or I can run those through a different A.P.I. Entirely the old A.P.I. The. I was using the E.X.T. Audio file. A.P.I. [TS]

00:15:12   That supports them. But that doesn't support streaming. [TS]

00:15:15   So I can have these two different code paths of this pretty major part of the player where I'm you know running it for [TS]

00:15:21   certain files not others and. But I don't even know we're trying to call yet. Until I have. [TS]

00:15:25   You know big chunk of a file. Or I can do my third option which is what I'm probably going to end up doing. [TS]

00:15:31   Which is actually like fix the file on disk. And then play it. Which is not a great. Aren't you're downloading it then. [TS]

00:15:42   Yeah I mean. [TS]

00:15:43   I will probably end up just not streaming these beach because it would be a lot harder if I make it because then if I [TS]

00:15:49   stream and then I have to actually like go one level deeper in the A.P.I. [TS]

00:15:53   and Like decode the format myself for both of these and then that's [TS]

00:15:58   and only feed brought it into a converter it's very I would really rather not go to that level if I don't need to of [TS]

00:16:03   the president going for the server side solution where these problematic files good downloaded on thier server [TS]

00:16:10   and then you put in the metadata for them and [TS]

00:16:11   when you encounter one in the wild you just asked the server for the chapter info which already. [TS]

00:16:16   Fetched you knowing well isn't this isn't just chapters This is actually like playback. [TS]

00:16:20   I can't even play the files arrange this way they can't give it some at it like you know if you don't think Download it [TS]

00:16:25   once on your server. [TS]

00:16:26   Get all the information you need about the Fall weather is chapters or how to play it or whatever then [TS]

00:16:29   when you encounter that file rather than reading the information about how to play it. [TS]

00:16:34   Just as a server for information about how to play it and it will tell you [TS]

00:16:37   when you don't have to bother reading the end. [TS]

00:16:39   Well first of all anything involving like a server cache of the file has all the problems. So you know mostly it's. [TS]

00:16:45   If I have one. If I if I do want to pro-choice is to catch the file myself and re serve it. From my servers to the app. [TS]

00:16:53   Podcast publishers don't like that my what might that I know you're not going to serve the file. [TS]

00:16:57   Just the method it right so then the question is what happens if the meditate I'm serving is out of date because a file [TS]

00:17:02   has changed. You know then that's a problem. [TS]

00:17:05   I could be tagging everything but then what if I don't have the data I need you know it's it's it's a problem. [TS]

00:17:11   I'm going to come up with some kind of crazy fixed probably going to end up doing a temporary hack your street is Files. [TS]

00:17:17   playing again in the next few weeks. And then a longer term all. Probably have to go to that lower level A.P.I. [TS]

00:17:22   But I really want that. Oh I think the server side rather going to come back if you. If you obviously can do. [TS]

00:17:29   Solutions that involve downloading it but if you actually want to stream it. [TS]

00:17:32   Someone's got to download it and get all the info about it right [TS]

00:17:35   and then it's just a question of you know like you go it falls once you have the download path [TS]

00:17:39   and they're going to fall back to that sorry like well if I couldn't get the information or this is a rare podcast [TS]

00:17:44   and I want to look at or whatever the information is out of date because the files change or whatever. [TS]

00:17:48   Then you fall back to downloading. But I can't think of another way that you can successfully stream something. [TS]

00:17:54   I mean I guess if you're saying the lower level A.P.I. [TS]

00:17:56   You can just do the jump ahead to the and get that or jump back thing and just have a little delay. Yeah. That's. [TS]

00:18:01   And of course that's. [TS]

00:18:02   If it supports byte ranges which And that's a separate thing so as as I'm developing this I learned a lot of things [TS]

00:18:07   about what server support and don't support. I also love the if rings header. It's also over design that is awesome. [TS]

00:18:14   The. The problem with byte ring support. Is that pod cast C.D.'s only support it fairly loosely. [TS]

00:18:22   So some of them supported every time. Some of them never support it. And some of them. Like Lipson which powers. [TS]

00:18:29   Most of overcast most popular podcast. Lives in supports it. Sometimes. So that was the way Lipson works. [TS]

00:18:37   As far as I can tell is that they are the front end to multiple back and C.D.'s and. When you request. [TS]

00:18:44   Libs in your oh you're redirected to just a random back and CD as far as I can tell. And you know. [TS]

00:18:49   You don't get the same one every request. So you can. [TS]

00:18:52   You could make a request for a file that supports byte ranges that make a second request and won't support them. [TS]

00:18:58   So you never know when calling the lives in your all. Whether the requests you make will support byte ranges even. [TS]

00:19:05   Regardless of where the. Whether the previous one to be exact same host did or not. If I build the U.I. and Everything. [TS]

00:19:11   Assuming that byte range of will always be there. I basically that I can assume that basically. [TS]

00:19:15   So I so I have to also like in a case like this. [TS]

00:19:18   I have to cover the case where where I have to download the entire file first before I can even start playing it. [TS]

00:19:25   Because that might be the only way to get of Mr. [TS]

00:19:27   So how did you not encounter this until after our guest was released us never downloaded one of these podcast for [TS]

00:19:33   testing. [TS]

00:19:33   Yeah I mean I I honestly didn't download a lot of em for a pod cast or AC whatever you want to call the format. [TS]

00:19:40   Because all the pocket had listened to our N P three format. And so I had. [TS]

00:19:44   I went and found some that I was using for testing for things like and for things like A C. [TS]

00:19:50   Chapters and everything the enhanced AC stuff. But none of those. [TS]

00:19:53   As happened to be encoded in this way with the header at the end. [TS]

00:19:57   So I you know I didn't I didn't test the entire catalog. Maybe I should have written some kind of script to do that. [TS]

00:20:03   That would've been wise but I didn't. So you know. Now I have a bunch of of test cases. [TS]

00:20:08   But basically it's going to be a lot of work to support. What is you know. [TS]

00:20:14   A very small percentage of downloads but you know. That's the job. [TS]

00:20:19   Since you've got all this server side data you could actually use in the end term use this social engineering solution [TS]

00:20:25   where you find the most popular broken podcast the part most popular party if they're like this take their files. [TS]

00:20:30   Rewrite them last mostly a fossil and send them an email and say hey. [TS]

00:20:34   Your files don't play on my player because it is not in my eyes for streaming. Here is versions of your files that do. [TS]

00:20:39   Could you swap the men for the old ones. And in the United ask them to read in code. [TS]

00:20:44   You're not even telling them they going forward to basically doing all the work for them. [TS]

00:20:47   I don't know how many it is like maybe if you do that with three pod casts that cover ninety percent of your [TS]

00:20:51   problematic files. Well. If you're going to go a social route. [TS]

00:20:55   The easier social route is that all the people who are encountering these podcasts. [TS]

00:20:59   Are yelling at me on Twitter and copying the people who publish them. [TS]

00:21:03   And some of the people who publish them have already said oh I didn't realize that. [TS]

00:21:07   I've now convert of the files it was different checkbox option doesn't do that. [TS]

00:21:10   Yeah they'll probably do it going forward if people complain but like anyway. [TS]

00:21:13   If you did it for them they would be even less work because of the like here here's your stuff on the platter [TS]

00:21:18   and I don't think you can do it for everybody but if I don't know the stats like I could [TS]

00:21:21   but there's a real big like peak of like this is these three podcast account for ninety percent of the problems because [TS]

00:21:26   they're popular. That would also give you some breathing room. Yeah. [TS]

00:21:30   I mean I think it's really been a very small number that I've heard about. [TS]

00:21:34   So I'm not that concerned I really do think the. [TS]

00:21:38   The right solution is just going to be to make the thing in the app that just download the whole file. [TS]

00:21:43   And then you know. Rewrites it to be correct and then feed it into the parser. [TS]

00:21:47   Because then I have way fewer code paths [TS]

00:21:49   and you know that I only have the one parsing code that I can stay with that high level A.P.I. [TS]

00:21:53   and Not do a whole bunch more work. Because you know if. And then just those files won't stream. [TS]

00:22:00   That you know they have to download all the way but that's kind of how they work already. [TS]

00:22:05   That's how overcast work constantly until last week and. Because it's such a very small number of these. [TS]

00:22:12   I think that's an acceptable trade off [TS]

00:22:15   but I don't know I could change my mind will say though that as far as two point zero about. [TS]

00:22:18   As far as you know any other minor things. I broke the entire watch app that was fun. [TS]

00:22:23   And you didn't realize it all causing nobody is that. I don't even use it. [TS]

00:22:27   It's kind of embarrassing but I don't use my watch app. [TS]

00:22:29   I hardly ever touch the main reason that it broke is even more embarrassing. Relatively late in the process. [TS]

00:22:38   I changed my. My artwork down later to use a different. Your all session A.P.I. Because the old your a connection A.P.I. [TS]

00:22:45   Was deprecated. I forgot to check the box and X. Code for that. For that one category file. [TS]

00:22:51   That said to include it in the linker in the watch kit binary. So I had a missing symbol when that function was called. [TS]

00:22:58   It would just throw an exception and crash. [TS]

00:23:02   And the reason I didn't catch this is because I wasn't using the simulator to test if I was using my actual watch. [TS]

00:23:08   And my actual watch. Turns out. Has been very buggy recently. And one of the ways been buggy. Is that. [TS]

00:23:15   I thought it was installing the new versions like the new is building it whenever I put a test by build [TS]

00:23:21   or a devs build on to my phone of overcast. I assume that it was working the way it always worked for. [TS]

00:23:26   Which is that it was also copying over the watch by an area the same time. Our you know few seconds later. [TS]

00:23:32   Turns out it wasn't and and the overcast. Build on my watch was like a month old and was before this change. [TS]

00:23:39   And so I was testing on my watch and I thought it was fine. Additionally. None of the bitterness caught it. [TS]

00:23:45   Possibly for similar reasons of test site being buggy. Possibly could. One of them use the watch app. I don't know. [TS]

00:23:50   Doesn't matter. Nobody caught it. I didn't catch it no one else did. [TS]

00:23:53   After you didn't catch either which means after you didn't even try to watch out because it literally would launch. [TS]

00:23:59   I have a fix in for that and for of a playlist editing bug where the very first time you would create a playlist. [TS]

00:24:06   It wouldn't save any of your settings which is really embarrassing. I don't know why I didn't catch that but it didn't. [TS]

00:24:10   Now it's fixed. [TS]

00:24:11   And a couple of the little things [TS]

00:24:13   but really that was it was very minor besides the watch get up surprising half of your Didn't even launch the watch out [TS]

00:24:18   for kind of things. Can you sneak through another you know this. Yeah I was also. Probably not worth putting. [TS]

00:24:27   Well though the number one thing you sneak through. [TS]

00:24:30   When you realize you have a loophole in app review is some sort of tethering back door. [TS]

00:24:34   Isn't that the rules of the sort that is that is standard protocol. Either a tethering back door and yes I mean later. [TS]

00:24:41   Right right one of the other to go back to streaming just for a minute I had a couple of minor questions I want to ask [TS]

00:24:47   you about that. [TS]

00:24:49   I feel like you've probably already answered this [TS]

00:24:51   but what was the hardest part I mean it sounds like the hardest part is yet to come which is figuring out the say see [TS]

00:24:56   stuff but is there anything else that was really hard that. That's worth noting and. [TS]

00:25:01   This kind of works its way into the following question which is what are you most proud of specifically within [TS]

00:25:08   streaming. [TS]

00:25:09   The hardest part was really just slowly getting all these pieces to work together because there's a whole bunch of like [TS]

00:25:15   weird conditions. Weird concurrency potential pitfalls. [TS]

00:25:21   Different you know differ a lot of different states that all the different pieces can be in. [TS]

00:25:25   When you when you start downloading the file like I mentioned I have this like initial request [TS]

00:25:29   and then I can do a range request so like which state are all the different requests in. Once you have that data. [TS]

00:25:35   As I'm passing it to the decoder you know what happens when I run against the end of what I've downloaded [TS]

00:25:41   and I have to send the decoder a partial block. Or do I wait till I have a whole block. [TS]

00:25:45   And then what data decoder in has it. You know has a found the header yet do I have what's necessary to decode yet. [TS]

00:25:51   Has it reached end of file what happens in all these other things we found a file do I do actually play to the very [TS]

00:25:56   last sample. Or do I cut it off somewhere. You know because I've messed up a buffer somewhere. [TS]

00:26:02   All these little things that you know that's that's the hard part.. [TS]

00:26:05   In addition to the the aforementioned hard part which was just figuring out how the heck to use this A.P.I. [TS]

00:26:13   Which is very low level C. A.P.I. Which and. [TS]

00:26:16   You know like most of Korea is extremely unforgiving and gives relatively unhelpful error codes so. [TS]

00:26:23   It was just really really tough just getting all that stuff right. What lessons did you learn. [TS]

00:26:29   While you were doing this. Use a v player. My biggest lesson is don't do this if you're starting from scratch. [TS]

00:26:38   However I am very happy I did it because now I have. [TS]

00:26:41   You know the whole reason I had to do this for a quick review anybody who isn't familiar the whole reason I had to do [TS]

00:26:45   all this craziness. And not just use a V. Player is that A.V. Player. [TS]

00:26:50   As far as I'm aware and I've I've tried to do this numerous times and tried numerous different approaches. But A.V. [TS]

00:26:56   Player as far as I know. Cannot do smart speed. [TS]

00:27:00   So in order to do smart speed I had to write this whole audio engine at a lower level than that [TS]

00:27:05   and I didn't want to just have like a version that. Smart speed and aversion that can stream. [TS]

00:27:12   So that you can only has more speed while you're streaming I do want to let you know I want to have every feature [TS]

00:27:16   available. Whether you are streaming or not it was a lot of work. But I think it was worth it. Assume a can fix this. [TS]

00:27:23   As annoying little AC limitation. It was. [TS]

00:27:27   I think it was very much worth it because now even even people who don't who never thought they would use streaming. [TS]

00:27:33   Which I count myself among those. [TS]

00:27:35   It is really nice to have even if you set it to automatically download everything when it comes out. [TS]

00:27:40   You will still at some point runs with a situation where something just came out. I want to listen to it right now. [TS]

00:27:47   And you can just tap it. And it just starts playing. Immediately. You don't have to wait for the download. [TS]

00:27:52   And that's really nice. And this is this is holding up a bunch of other possible features. [TS]

00:27:57   Things like making invalid sharing links better like now. [TS]

00:28:00   You know I haven't done that yet [TS]

00:28:01   but I can make it so that if you tap an ever cash Airlink in something I can pop up a little player in the overcast app [TS]

00:28:07   and have Uli preview that are played at right there. You know that's that. [TS]

00:28:11   Or just simpler things like when that of cations come in for new episodes. I can have a play button on them. [TS]

00:28:16   Said it was dismissed and wait for its download. You know simple stuff like that. [TS]

00:28:20   It's just really nice to have all these options. So now I have the foundation that lets me actually do it. [TS]

00:28:26   What lessons did you learn while doing all this other than testing a watch up and A.V. Play or anything else. [TS]

00:28:32   You learn to play one of each kind of pod cast that you know exists out in the wild racing one M P three you one day [TS]

00:28:38   see where that are the end when I see it as the beginning one hybrid right one low bitrate you know [TS]

00:28:43   and does the I mean basically what I learned there was I was already doing that. [TS]

00:28:47   But what I learned there was there isn't a type but I forgot about that should have been included in the list. [TS]

00:28:54   It's funny to me that you have yet to mention that you learned that unit testing may not be so terrible [TS]

00:28:58   but I know that's a tree that. It's not worth barking up. [TS]

00:29:02   Any other interesting stories about the development because it's been about a year right what version of this of the [TS]

00:29:09   streaming engine are we on for five. Three or four. OK. So it's but it was about a year. [TS]

00:29:15   Any other interesting stories were true airing before we talk about business these things. [TS]

00:29:19   Not really how mean it was you know I did a few other things I converted a lot a lot of things that were previously. [TS]

00:29:26   Firing notifications. To tell various other parts of the app to update. And now I'm doing all those. [TS]

00:29:33   I'm doing a lot of those as cave you know. Using Facebook Kavi a controller. Instead of all that sort of occasion hell. [TS]

00:29:40   So that was actually and I think I'm also I have serialized database access onto the main thread. [TS]

00:29:47   Which is crazy sounding to some people. And I'm know this is very technical and very boring so go over it very quickly. [TS]

00:29:53   Don't want to hear basically my previous version was using a version of MY a few model layer that had a background [TS]

00:29:59   queue for database access and there was there was a number of challenges with this and potential bugs [TS]

00:30:04   when like things were happening my background queue and the U.I. Tries to update. [TS]

00:30:08   And then you know what version of A does it get and. And you know. [TS]

00:30:12   It would just update at the right time designing the actual you get called in the background thread that it's touching [TS]

00:30:17   you like it was you can't do. So there's all sorts of these little possible bugs some of the which became real bugs. [TS]

00:30:22   And the new version. Serialize all database. Operations on the main thread. [TS]

00:30:28   You're typically told not to do this for a lot of things because you know that is performance problematic like if your [TS]

00:30:35   data if you have a big database operation that's David for a couple of seconds. Do you I can't update. In practice. [TS]

00:30:42   If you have an operation with that long. The U.I. Gets blocked. Anyway. [TS]

00:30:46   If you have it on a background queue because at some point the U.I. [TS]

00:30:49   Calls into the database queue and the operation is ahead of it in the queue it's blocking it all up. [TS]

00:30:55   So I found in practice. Any large operations that were large enough to take. [TS]

00:30:59   You know notice a lot of time in the database would block the U.I. Anyway. Even if it was in the background thread. [TS]

00:31:05   To something in the U.I. Would cause the into the database and have to wait. [TS]

00:31:09   You don't have a you know readers aren't blocked by writers kind of isolation or a separate queue for read and write. [TS]

00:31:15   You know. You know I don't have that I could add that some point F.C. Model. In practice I really haven't needed it. [TS]

00:31:24   You know in practice having everything on the main thread is both way simpler. You know it's. [TS]

00:31:29   As I mention all the all the all the possible bugs that you get from having it on some other thread. [TS]

00:31:33   All those bugs are gone and also. It hasn't really been floor in fact many things about it are faster. So I have. [TS]

00:31:40   I have found no downside to this. In the kind of in the way that I actually use the database which is. [TS]

00:31:47   You know every I'm never doing like a table scan whatever sequelae called a table scan. I'm never doing that in the U.I. [TS]

00:31:54   Everything that I've always been inquiring is always indexed. And dataset really isn't that big relatively speaking. [TS]

00:31:59   So yeah that's fine. Right. One final question before we talk about something else that's awesome. [TS]

00:32:07   What's next on the roadmap anything you're willing to share one. [TS]

00:32:11   One benefit that we won't quote benefit that we get being on the A.T.P. Emails is that. [TS]

00:32:18   We also get about tenth of your overcast. Support requests that somehow end up in the A.T.P. In a box. [TS]

00:32:25   And I've seen a handful of people. [TS]

00:32:27   Very perturbed about the lack of authenticated feeds in overcast do you plan on doing that [TS]

00:32:33   or is there anything else you'd like to talk about with with regard to your roadmap.. [TS]

00:32:38   So right now I know I I crawl A.T.P. Once for all subscribers to it. [TS]

00:32:44   And then you know I caught that then I just read the People. So OK. Suppose you have a password feed. [TS]

00:32:49   Do I crawl it once and then research that to other people. That's obviously not great for security and. [TS]

00:32:57   You know kind of defeats the purpose of password feeds and could be like a piracy. Venue Avenue so I don't do that. [TS]

00:33:03   Do I crawl the feed separately. For every user that's ascribe to it with their you can even password. [TS]

00:33:10   That is like the most. Semantically correct way to do it. [TS]

00:33:12   But that's also incredibly wasteful and resource heavy on my crawling servers. Suppose a really popular pod cast. [TS]

00:33:20   Went with Pastor because it feeds. And then I had you know. [TS]

00:33:23   Sixty thousand people in my pod cast after Ryan to download his one thing with sixty thousand different passwords then [TS]

00:33:29   that adds sixty thousand crawling feet to have to do. To every interval of that I'm refreshing the feed that. [TS]

00:33:36   That's both a burden on me and a burden on the other server. [TS]

00:33:39   So I don't know of anybody who does server side crawling and supports password feeds. [TS]

00:33:45   But I could be wrong I mean you could as it you could do it but I think at scale it starts to become problematic [TS]

00:33:51   and so that's that's why I've been hesitant to do it it's also just you know among all different feature requests I get [TS]

00:33:58   it has been pretty low in a priori live simply because not that many people request it. [TS]

00:34:01   And I think most pod cast these days that are going to do the password model. [TS]

00:34:06   Generally speaking I think that's fairly outdated in many of them are switching gears having their own apps to play [TS]

00:34:12   them back in. And there's various reasons why I don't love that approach. But that's three out of the market. [TS]

00:34:17   So I don't have immediate plans to do this [TS]

00:34:21   but I could do it in the future I don't know if any other interesting things planned for over Test three. [TS]

00:34:29   Even thinking about three yet. No I mean honestly I don't have any. Ending like massive ideas. [TS]

00:34:34   I've just small ideas I want to do little things I want to do you know a bunch of things that are that would be like [TS]

00:34:39   worthy of like two point one two point two like that that kind of update. But I currently have nothing. [TS]

00:34:44   No no concept of what three point zero would be or when it would come out if ever I can I can take the two point X. [TS]

00:34:51   Line going for a long time [TS]

00:34:53   and with our lunch tell us about something that's also our second sponsor try to square space. [TS]

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00:36:04   If you Center for a year to get her freedom a name and this is great [TS]

00:36:06   and there are so many cases where this is the right answer for example earlier today. [TS]

00:36:10   I was at one of my favorite coffee shops. [TS]

00:36:13   And the the owner of the coffee shop said hey I need to update my website you know the computers. [TS]

00:36:17   You know what should I do actually I do and I said just here look. I wrote down Squarespace form. [TS]

00:36:21   He hadn't heard of it because he doesn't with the podcast apparently ever. I wrote on Squarespace form. I said here. [TS]

00:36:26   Do this. Trust me this is. All you need and. I'll let you know how that went you know when I go there. [TS]

00:36:33   But once a month or so we'll follow up in future sponsors and how that went [TS]

00:36:36   but I'm pretty sure it's gonna work out well. This is a perfect example of exactly interest rates for so anyway. [TS]

00:36:42   Check it out start your free trial site today is of I told him to do. No credit card required at square space dot com. [TS]

00:36:49   Use Code A.T.P. To get ten percent off your first purchase when you sign up. Squarespace build it beautiful. All right. [TS]

00:36:56   Business model changed for overcast to. What once was not free is now free. Yeah basically. [TS]

00:37:04   So the before the model was a free app with an app purchase for five bucks one time to unlock all the features. [TS]

00:37:10   So that was like there were limits. Certain features around available and. [TS]

00:37:14   You could pay wants to unlock them all and it worked fine. It wasn't amazing. But was fine. [TS]

00:37:20   The problem was that of course. As these things go it's a one time purchase. And so revenue. [TS]

00:37:28   You know average revenue per month was going down as as these things tend to do. [TS]

00:37:32   And I was you know I had his major new update and I and I had so many people asking me. [TS]

00:37:36   You know it is going to be a paid upgrade. There are people on both sides of that like. [TS]

00:37:41   About half and people who asked for hoping the answer was yes. [TS]

00:37:44   And a half I'm hoping the answer was No to they wanted to give me more money to you know make sure the apps revived. [TS]

00:37:51   Do they like it a lot so I had so many people who wanted the free updates only people who do want you more money. [TS]

00:37:57   And I value it all these different options and the other problem was that. You know by having the app that has limits. [TS]

00:38:02   About twenty percent of the users actually paid a locker and. As far as in our purchase rates go. [TS]

00:38:07   That's an incredibly good. Like that's and that's a great conversion rate most people with like a free. [TS]

00:38:11   Thing with her paid conversion. They would love a conversion rate twenty percent. [TS]

00:38:15   So I have no complaints about the conversion rate there. [TS]

00:38:19   However that still meant that eighty percent of the Hooters were getting this limited. Terrible version of the app and. [TS]

00:38:26   I wasn't using that version. I wouldn't use that version even for a day. [TS]

00:38:31   It was you know annoying to even have these different code paths to test them. [TS]

00:38:36   And I knew that eighty percent of my users were using a terrible version of the app. [TS]

00:38:41   So I switched to a voluntary patronage model. So basically and. [TS]

00:38:48   This was not actually that new it's very very similar to what I did with Instapaper about halfway through with its [TS]

00:38:54   ownership. [TS]

00:38:55   So you basically the entire app is free in paper was paper that there was a different story [TS]

00:39:01   but the entire app is now free. All features are on locked. And you pay. If you want to to support ongoing development. [TS]

00:39:09   And you pay a dollar a month. If you. If you are do that. And so far. That's working. [TS]

00:39:14   I haven't matched my previous income yet. And I don't expect to for a while but I've gotten some. [TS]

00:39:21   I've gotten something like forty percent there already I mean after less than a week. [TS]

00:39:25   And the feature as it as it is right now is incredibly to a fault. Unintrusive like it's buried. [TS]

00:39:32   It doesn't like if you just launch the app and use it normally you never even see it. [TS]

00:39:37   It's only in the settings screen if you think you can one of the settings free and then you'll see it. [TS]

00:39:41   Otherwise you don't see it at all [TS]

00:39:43   and then over time like that's mostly good I just haven't gotten around to making things that like promote it more like. [TS]

00:39:50   You know I was thinking maybe at the very bottom of the podcast list screen putting the little thing they're saying [TS]

00:39:54   were supportive of you know if you aren't a monthly patient put a little thing there saying here is what we do or like. [TS]

00:39:59   You know when I want to do. When I add more features. [TS]

00:40:02   I can put a like welcome thing up saying here's what's new [TS]

00:40:05   and here's how you can do it if you want to support this sort of stuff that I can do. But I haven't done it yet. [TS]

00:40:10   So having having done a really invisible. [TS]

00:40:13   Update and to already be about forty percent towards my previous revenue after less than a week. [TS]

00:40:18   Is I consider that a success that is that is a faster uptake rate than I would've expected. [TS]

00:40:23   So I'm very happy with that so far. And. Why why free. I mean. [TS]

00:40:30   Don't you want to make money man I mean I heard what you just said about how you've got a pretty good up to uptake on [TS]

00:40:36   this but you know. You said you haven't quite reached year old monthly revenue. [TS]

00:40:41   And that seem to be working OK so why mess with the system. [TS]

00:40:45   You know it's you know part of it as I said was like the reasons of satisfying. [TS]

00:40:49   I mean I'm at now everybody gets the good app. Right. So all my customers now are using the best features and. [TS]

00:40:55   You know that's to me that's important like things like smart speed in voice boost this is why. [TS]

00:41:00   My entire customer audio engineer exists. This is why I had to write all that this is why you can't you just use a V. [TS]

00:41:06   Player and. It's a big reason that differentiates overcast from the built in pod cast app. [TS]

00:41:11   So when you're telling people like you know you should use this app will why. [TS]

00:41:15   The big and you know I have other competitors too and that's fine [TS]

00:41:18   but the big the biggest competitor by a long shot is the built an apple podcast app. By a mile. [TS]

00:41:25   And so and that comes in it comes with every phone. It comes pre-installed. [TS]

00:41:30   As far as I don't even the you can delete it I think it's always there. So the question is like. How do I make anybody. [TS]

00:41:37   Use my app. Instead of the built an apple pod cast out. [TS]

00:41:40   And a lot of the features that I love behind that paywall before. Apple give those away free. [TS]

00:41:46   So that really it was not very competitive with Apple's app. [TS]

00:41:50   And so before I had the scheme where the app was free for you know some of the app [TS]

00:41:55   and then you pay to get everything so if it was always free for most people and pay for some. [TS]

00:42:02   And now it is still free for most people and pay from some. But I just changed. What they're paying for and why. [TS]

00:42:12   And in the result. The result of that is a much simpler app. That's much better for everybody. [TS]

00:42:20   So that's why I think it's a win because it's still like it was always free for most people [TS]

00:42:26   and I make money somewhere in there. [TS]

00:42:28   And now it still is that it's still free for most people I make money somewhere in there. [TS]

00:42:32   Again I've use I just changed. The specifics of how that's done. But it's still making money. It's still profitable. [TS]

00:42:40   And over the long term. It's probably going to be just as profitable if not more so because as I mentioned. [TS]

00:42:46   You know this is not my first paid app. I've seen this train before. That's not to say. Now it is. [TS]

00:42:53   I've seen this train before. I know had discos after my first year. Where I did this big thing. [TS]

00:43:01   And I keep giving free updates. Average monthly revenue goes down. [TS]

00:43:05   Because I start to reach actuation among my existing audience. [TS]

00:43:08   Of like the people who bought it last year when I launched it. You know over time. [TS]

00:43:13   I'm not making any more money from those people. And still giving all these new features for free. [TS]

00:43:17   If I do a paid upgrade that has all the rest of the problems people generally hate those over time if I would have [TS]

00:43:23   stuck with the old model. That was a downward slope of the revenue. That was it was slow. [TS]

00:43:28   I was still I was still doing OK. But the trend line was clearly slowly going down. [TS]

00:43:34   And that's what happens to every paid app that I've ever seen. So with this. I feel. [TS]

00:43:39   First of all with this I think the trend line will slowly go up. That's a huge improvement there. [TS]

00:43:45   And it also kind of levels out a lot more. You know I more predictable income and and. [TS]

00:43:51   And it gives people a way to give me more money if they want to. And so I really just saw a lot of problems. [TS]

00:43:58   And I don't think it's any. I don't think it's that crazy. [TS]

00:44:02   You know when you when you look at it as how it is President minute ago it's just like. It was free. [TS]

00:44:07   For most people and some people pay before. [TS]

00:44:09   And now it still is just those things you do just what you pay for is different. [TS]

00:44:13   If you look at that way I don't think it's that crazy. Well yeah but that's all fine for Marco right. God this. [TS]

00:44:21   Yeah you know the fact this was all true. [TS]

00:44:23   All Do you know Twitter and blogs arm of this morning I want to get really into it on the show [TS]

00:44:26   but the short version is that anytime I do anything. I hear from people saying. [TS]

00:44:33   Well that's fine for you know copying the old that's fine for Marlen joke like.. [TS]

00:44:37   Well that's fine for Marco but I can't do that because I don't have X. [TS]

00:44:41   Whether it's you know as many Twitter followers as I do or.. [TS]

00:44:44   The brand recognition that I do whatever the case may be the P.R. You know that I get want to do things. [TS]

00:44:51   Always these options. Always these these arguments of. Well. [TS]

00:44:55   Everything I do is is unique and invalid to to apply to anybody else. And that's just not true. And you know. [TS]

00:45:05   The fact is people are going to convince themselves of that matter what I say so it doesn't really matter is certainly [TS]

00:45:09   worth arguing. But the short version is that half I took. You know the result that I have that I'm that I'm at now. [TS]

00:45:16   Of like where my career is now what you know my audience what. [TS]

00:45:20   You know what people expect of me what people want to see from me. Yeah that's hard to replicate in five minutes. [TS]

00:45:25   But I've been building it for like ten years. And the ways I have built it over ten years. [TS]

00:45:31   Are generally accessible to other people. If you also blog for ten years. And pod cast for five years. [TS]

00:45:39   And make a bunch of apps along the way. Then you know then you have a better chance of of having. [TS]

00:45:47   You know the getting the kind of longer attention I can get cetera but also. That want attention. [TS]

00:45:53   Is fleeting it's one time that's it like launch tension alone does not carry things if it did everything I did would [TS]

00:46:00   succeed. But in fact most of things I do don't succeed. So I stopped doing them. You know like the the magazine. [TS]

00:46:09   Did not succeed. The launch was. [TS]

00:46:13   I think a couple days after the launch was the most of crisis it ever had and then she went down from there. [TS]

00:46:18   The magazine did not succeed bug shot did not succeed. [TS]

00:46:21   Nursing clock of course was kind of a joke the didn't succeed even. [TS]

00:46:24   I was having trouble keeping Instapaper afloat [TS]

00:46:26   when I sold it that's one of the reverse hold it because it was just not doing that well anymore. [TS]

00:46:31   You know the fact is the things I do. Don't succeed by default I am afford the luxury of of a stronger launched. [TS]

00:46:38   Them A Many people can get. But the value of that launch as I said is is temporary and. [TS]

00:46:45   If you know I mean you know look at like our friends who made Vesper right John Gruber Brent Simmons Dave Whiskas these [TS]

00:46:51   people had massive audience especially John Gruber these massive audiences. And yet Vesper hasn't taken over the world. [TS]

00:46:59   Obviously the size of your audience is really you know it helps. But it's not all you need. [TS]

00:47:04   And it's not a guarantee so the people who really need to hear this won't hear it. [TS]

00:47:09   So it doesn't really matter what I say. [TS]

00:47:11   But I don't know if they're going to take away from this it is that almost nothing that I've done is unique [TS]

00:47:18   and you know there. There is a road to take here to increase your chances of success. But it might take you ten years. [TS]

00:47:25   And a lot of work. That's what it took me. You know. [TS]

00:47:28   One of things you've mentioned in the past that was like wanting to get your appetite you mentioned in your blog post [TS]

00:47:35   here. Pragmatic pricing. [TS]

00:47:36   Blog posts that will put in the show notes wanting to get your app into the hands of as many people as possible like [TS]

00:47:42   you're going for market share over profit like rather than selling in ninety [TS]

00:47:45   and dollar artisanal hand-crafted pod cast out to seventeen people. You want your app to be in. [TS]

00:47:51   Hands most people possible as a hedge against what you say big money. [TS]

00:47:56   Was I was never do you call that you're coming in like that the. You didn't want podcast. [TS]

00:48:00   To become like proprietary [TS]

00:48:02   or Facebook I was their own are controlled by a single company so you want to get your application out there. [TS]

00:48:08   To the broadest audience possible [TS]

00:48:11   and that that is in line with your original pricing model which was free with an app purchased because you reduce the [TS]

00:48:17   barrier to someone. Tapping the little button in the store and getting it on their device. And now again. Same thing. [TS]

00:48:23   You know if you want it on your device you can have a button you know how to give any money. [TS]

00:48:28   Ellie now it's better app when you're download it so there's more chance to people to have the button. [TS]

00:48:33   So that all works but one of the complaints from people about your new pricing model has been revolving around. [TS]

00:48:41   What effect your or new pricing model may have on the other pod cast clients that are for sale now. [TS]

00:48:49   I guess not including Apple's because like they don't care if you do. [TS]

00:48:52   And maybe not including the big guys that can afford to give away their POV gotten off as any other big guys like that [TS]

00:48:59   but basically other smallish independent. Podcast clients. [TS]

00:49:04   Do you think your new pricing model Bull have any effect on to the fortunes of those clients. [TS]

00:49:11   I don't think it has any more effect than it did before. [TS]

00:49:15   Which is I don't think it has any more effect than what the Apple client has all of us are at a severe disadvantage [TS]

00:49:21   because the apple client is built in and pre-installed and free and has most features that most people need built in [TS]

00:49:30   and is real to real so they all your quality is better as that warm sound you just can't get from vinyl Casey. Guys. [TS]

00:49:38   And also like. You know the. When you do a search in the App Store for pod cast or pod casts. [TS]

00:49:45   It shows this giant banner up top. For the built in pod cast app to promote that to basically. [TS]

00:49:51   Divert your attention back to that to dissuade you from getting another pod cast app. [TS]

00:49:56   If you actually search the App Store. [TS]

00:49:58   And you can even delete that you can even delete that Apple here Phone So it's not as if you need to download it from [TS]

00:50:02   the store like you have it. Yeah. [TS]

00:50:04   So there's a reason why I mean by most estimates I think the pot at the apple pie has something like sixty to ninety [TS]

00:50:11   percent market share depending on who you ask I mean it's a massive massive player and that market your number. [TS]

00:50:17   As far as you know is not going down. So that's a huge advantage for anybody enter the market. [TS]

00:50:25   So mine being being mostly free. [TS]

00:50:28   In the sense that you know I still ask people for money but just you know now you can get all the features for free. [TS]

00:50:32   It's a valid question that like you know my. You know killing these smaller apps. I don't think I am. [TS]

00:50:37   I don't think I'm I think I am. First of all competing. And this is something that they can do if they want to. [TS]

00:50:46   By most estimates that I had that in that I've been able to piece together from like rank data. [TS]

00:50:51   I think they're all making more money than me doing what they're doing. [TS]

00:50:55   So they've now grossing me I think for the whole for the year. [TS]

00:50:58   Or at least coming very close or are being very close so I think they're doing fine you know when you [TS]

00:51:04   when you have this giant built in app. That is. You know those in the phone free very full featured. [TS]

00:51:11   Look at like the notes app is another good example of this or any of that [TS]

00:51:15   but you know the I was whether at any of the built and i OS apps calculator. I mean all the reminders all the stuff. [TS]

00:51:21   There are markets. For all of those apps. In the App Store. There for third party version of those. [TS]

00:51:26   And they're often very healthy markets. With many different competitors. [TS]

00:51:30   And even of Apple's app takes like you know the eighty percent ever. That still leaves a lot of people. [TS]

00:51:37   And I had a problem today with a reading list and as far as I could tell reading list. [TS]

00:51:41   Never really had much of an effect Instapaper either way didn't seem like a negative or positive. [TS]

00:51:46   Because the thing is when you're making an app. [TS]

00:51:50   The Especially something as complex as a pod cast as the sum of all your little decisions along the way which is tons [TS]

00:51:57   of little time design decisions. The sum of all those decisions. Is what makes the app. [TS]

00:52:03   Fit people are not fit people whether it. [TS]

00:52:05   Whether it kind of matches with the way you think about things [TS]

00:52:08   or whether it conflicts with what you think about things. Whether it's a design you like or you don't like. [TS]

00:52:12   Before you even get to features or price those are all considerations. [TS]

00:52:16   And because people have different preferences of what they want. How they want to look how they want to work. [TS]

00:52:21   What features they need and don't need. That creates tons of market potential for other apps. [TS]

00:52:27   In every category even categories that Apple already has a built in thing up front for the fact that I came into this [TS]

00:52:33   category. And I give my app away for free. [TS]

00:52:36   I don't think I think it's the same counsel had I think it's the same situation. [TS]

00:52:40   That the ass of always been in before like apps that provide something that people want that do things a little [TS]

00:52:47   differently than the built in water now than mine. Those will find audiences. The same way minded. [TS]

00:52:52   You know they will find audiences. Regardless of what how much my app costs. All right so next question. [TS]

00:52:59   If it turns out that changing your pricing this way. Did reduce the. [TS]

00:53:05   You know the sales of competing applications to a degree that maybe wanted to ism drop off or whatever. [TS]

00:53:11   How how does that fit in with your goals of trying to make sure big money doesn't come are they going to buy guessing [TS]

00:53:17   is it does it not affected at all as a negative as a positive. And how would you feel about. [TS]

00:53:23   Well I would feel pretty bad if I actually like killed someone else's app. [TS]

00:53:27   But I have seen very little evidence to suggest that that kind of thing has ever happened and I US [TS]

00:53:32   or any software market for that matter. That's not really how things tend to go. Usually apps. [TS]

00:53:40   Die or become on his have fuller or you know. Non economical to continue. [TS]

00:53:45   Because they themselves just kind of didn't do that well. Maintaining their own app or keeping their own users around. [TS]

00:53:52   I had to save you know when I when I had Instapaper. [TS]

00:53:55   I learned this pretty well too that I was always worried about my competition I was always worried. [TS]

00:53:59   I talked with that XO Xcel like I was always worry about like you know what. [TS]

00:54:03   What if somebody comes in tomorrow and takes all my users away. And I never happened. [TS]

00:54:08   Lots of new competitors came around. Some of them very big some of them completely free. [TS]

00:54:13   In fact most of them completely free. Some of them from big companies. Some of them Apple and. [TS]

00:54:19   It never seem to make any difference whatsoever because people who don't people had chosen me. For lots of reasons. [TS]

00:54:26   And my app was was kind of mine to screw up. Or you know if it was mine to neglect or whatever the case may be. [TS]

00:54:33   So if a pod cast app goes away. If it shuts down. Which insta cast did. This past. I don't know. [TS]

00:54:41   Six months ago maybe insta cast did but I talked to the creator of that in the past and it's you know. [TS]

00:54:46   I think he was having trouble for a while keeping it up. So I don't think I had anything to do with that really. [TS]

00:54:51   If an app goes away. Yes I would feel bad if it was my fault. [TS]

00:54:56   But I would have a really hard time believing that it was really my fault. [TS]

00:55:01   Furthermore if being you know free up front for this past year. If that was really a big deal. [TS]

00:55:10   My market share we've bigger. But it isn't like Pocket Kass is the greatest counterexample this. [TS]

00:55:16   Pocket cast has way more users than I do way more. They make way more money than I do. By a large amount. [TS]

00:55:25   They are on both platforms. They have a staff to maintain it. Like their pocket cast is. By all objective measures. [TS]

00:55:31   Kicking my butt. And they're paid up front. And they've been paid or from the entire time that I've been free. [TS]

00:55:37   So I don't you know and the reason why people choose pocket gas is not because that. You know. [TS]

00:55:44   Oh this is for five dollars or whatever they try to have no the charge whatever it is. It's not because of that. [TS]

00:55:50   It's because they just like it better or it does things that mine doesn't do [TS]

00:55:54   or search platform that I don't serve like. It's for other reasons. So I think. [TS]

00:56:00   I think people are putting way more emphasis on this pricing model. [TS]

00:56:05   Then I think it's warranted for the big picture thing though. [TS]

00:56:10   Ignoring whether you are the cause of it are are you know [TS]

00:56:15   or not is it better for keeping podcasts from being Facebook eyes there whatever. Is it. [TS]

00:56:23   Do you want to see lots of third party. [TS]

00:56:26   Clients out there for pod cast earth do you not really care as long as the overall market share between. [TS]

00:56:34   You know the big money [TS]

00:56:35   and the little guys is the same even if that be the little guys share divvied up between five people seven people [TS]

00:56:41   twelve people to people. You know really care. My goal here is diversity in the ecosystem. So it's not point of view. [TS]

00:56:50   A large number of smaller clients. Is better. However I you know we've had a large number of small clients for years. [TS]

00:56:59   And we haven't made meaningful. Inroads into. [TS]

00:57:03   You know getting See the get market share overall for the independent category. [TS]

00:57:06   You know the winners have always been Apple's podcast app. And then you know down a while then stitcher. [TS]

00:57:12   And then things like. I heart and tune in there are kind of not quite pod cast players. [TS]

00:57:17   Now you have things like Spotify the getting into podcasts and that so it's only going to continue. [TS]

00:57:23   The diversity is important [TS]

00:57:24   but you also need some big players that can be big enough to attract people away from those other ones. [TS]

00:57:31   And that's what I'm trying to be. [TS]

00:57:33   You know stitcher I think by most measures had something like five percent of the entire progress player market that's [TS]

00:57:38   a lot. I'm trying to reach that kind of level. [TS]

00:57:40   I know I'm not going to have like fifty percent or more I guess crazy talk. I would love to reach five percent. [TS]

00:57:46   And I'm nowhere near it. [TS]

00:57:48   But I love to get there is an Apple kind of a good guy in a scenario because even though they're big [TS]

00:57:52   and have all of the money everything. [TS]

00:57:54   There are there are sort of vague disinterest in pod cast means that like their player just reads R.S.S. [TS]

00:57:59   Feeds right they're not they're not trying to open up pay walls are not trying to grab copywriter [TS]

00:58:04   and start their own admins of people if I guess there's seem pretty sort of benign. [TS]

00:58:09   Kind of doddering is to build an app that works OK works better now than it used to but it's straight out. [TS]

00:58:15   Podcast app right there's no there's not even any weird i Tunes the air around snapping in there it. Oh. Correct. [TS]

00:58:23   But I don't want to buy guns I don't like there's. [TS]

00:58:26   I write so the apples and good [TS]

00:58:27   but I'm saying like in terms of the openness versus closeness like you can totally see how like stitcher in your [TS]

00:58:32   scenario like something like stitcher is more the enemy. In terms of. They want. You know. [TS]

00:58:38   I don't know if they want control of the [TS]

00:58:40   but every Their view of the podcast world is like through the lens of stitcher. [TS]

00:58:44   Right it is defeat is a different kind of deal than well. People just put up R.S.S. [TS]

00:58:48   Feeds that is what the client up the crawls them and lets people listen to the things like that. [TS]

00:58:52   That's what you're trying to preserve essentially what we have now which is. [TS]

00:58:55   Hey so you want to broadcast it's just an R.S.S. Feed with a bunch of attachments. Anybody can do it. [TS]

00:59:00   If you want to get listed in the big popular directories like i Tunes or know what else is out there. [TS]

00:59:05   There's no barrier to that entry Apple is not like the gatekeeper they don't like charge you money [TS]

00:59:10   or require that Apple as be put in front of your stuff or whatever it's all pretty open [TS]

00:59:14   and straightforward kind of like blogging. Used to be unkind and. Well. [TS]

00:59:19   We'll talk about medium in a little bit but anyway. Like like walking with in. [TS]

00:59:22   The old days where it's very open [TS]

00:59:24   and it seems to me that a boy you're trying to guard against is the new world where it's like it well if you want to [TS]

00:59:30   have a podcast you have to go through stitcher and stitcher gets X percentage of your profit [TS]

00:59:34   and then like the App Store and navigate keeper. Servant thing in the volved. [TS]

00:59:40   And they reserve the right there in sort of their own as into your things in the resell your consonantal I'm making up [TS]

00:59:45   I have no idea what stitchers dealers [TS]

00:59:46   but the idea that are like Facebook like where else do you want your articles to be shown Facebook Facebook controls [TS]

00:59:53   what gets into Facebook Facebook can copy your stuff and republish it [TS]

00:59:57   and Facebook instant articles are a thing that you have to write to it's not like they just pull your stuff anyway. [TS]

01:00:02   Or like Apple news. Aggressive. [TS]

01:00:04   My correcting trying to get a handle on what it is that you're the doomsday scenario that doesn't get exist [TS]

01:00:09   but you're trying to avoid. Yes. So. So you need to go back stitcher for a second. The fan I like about stitcher. [TS]

01:00:15   Is that they they have their own proprietary directory and. [TS]

01:00:21   So it's not a general purpose Pod has player can only play their pod casts. [TS]

01:00:25   And if you agree to be one of their pod casts. They call your feed they get updates. [TS]

01:00:31   They download your episodes and rehearsed of them themselves. So you don't see the download numbers. [TS]

01:00:38   They insert their own ads. [TS]

01:00:40   Between them which is weird [TS]

01:00:43   and conflicting possibly with the ads that you might have a transcoder audio quality to be terrible [TS]

01:00:48   and not so much actually required you to promote stitcher on the under shows which should be why you always hear [TS]

01:00:54   posture saying Find us on i Tunes and stitcher because they have to. And we decided with the show. [TS]

01:01:00   Early on when people when we got a couple of emails saying why aren't you want to cheer I can't listen to you. [TS]

01:01:05   We decided early on. Based on the apparent volume being fairly low. [TS]

01:01:11   That we didn't think it was worth being on stitchers we didn't really. We weren't very happy with those terms. [TS]

01:01:17   And so we decided you know it's not worth it. [TS]

01:01:20   We don't want to do that and all the only reason we had the option to say no is because teachers market share. [TS]

01:01:28   Was only like you know. Five percent or whatever. If they got any bigger than that it would be really hard to say no. [TS]

01:01:35   So imagine what if they had fifteen percent twenty percent. That becomes real numbers. [TS]

01:01:41   And so imagine like big publishers. Like you know. Gimlet or slate or. You know radio totally big publishers. [TS]

01:01:48   If some players in the market. Like that and they start dictating terms like that. [TS]

01:01:53   They basically have to the greed of them. [TS]

01:01:56   You know they they don't have the luxury to say no to something that's controlling. [TS]

01:02:00   Possibly you know fifteen or twenty percent of the market. That's a huge huge problem. [TS]

01:02:05   A player doesn't have to get to a majority stake. [TS]

01:02:08   Fifty percent so you know they don't have to get that big to be able to dictate terms. [TS]

01:02:14   And I don't want to reach that point we've come dangerously close a few times. [TS]

01:02:18   I really don't want to reach that point in this medium and even more you know Facebook as you wait worse. [TS]

01:02:23   Obviously because they have by I think most helpless would tell you that. [TS]

01:02:27   More than fifty percent of traffic comes from Facebook like it's crazy how much traffic Facebook drives. [TS]

01:02:34   So you know we at least in this medium we have the freedom that we don't have those middlemen who can dictate so many [TS]

01:02:39   terms to us yet. However Apple is one.. [TS]

01:02:43   And granted a pod cast out you know most pocket subs you can subscribe to any U.R.L. No matter where you know any U.R.L. [TS]

01:02:49   and That's an artist feed you can survive to it in the Apple play it. [TS]

01:02:53   But Apple still Apple runs the i Tunes podcast directory. [TS]

01:02:57   And that directory is the center of all knowledge of podcast for a vast majority of pod cast players apples [TS]

01:03:05   and otherwise. And Apple has rules like I think that disallow like adult stuff and so forth that but anyway. Right now. [TS]

01:03:11   Apple is pretty hands off with their directory. Right now. [TS]

01:03:14   You know they have this giant market share in both the directory side and in the in the player app side. [TS]

01:03:21   But they've mostly been hands off as you said it mostly kind of ignored it. But what happens if they don't. [TS]

01:03:28   You know like what happens if they start using that power they have and making changes. [TS]

01:03:32   They probably won't because podcasting. [TS]

01:03:35   You know the reason why they haven't really touched it much so far as far as I can tell is because it just was never [TS]

01:03:42   that important to them relative to everything else they do to this giant company with these giant products to try to [TS]

01:03:46   negotiate it was passing was always so small that it wasn't worth them. Messing around with really. [TS]

01:03:52   But pocketing is growing and Apple is getting. [TS]

01:03:56   I don't know possibly a little bit desperate and relevance on the music side. So that might change. [TS]

01:04:02   Not only do I want to make sure that nobody else comes in [TS]

01:04:05   and gets enough market share to be able to dictate terms to every pocket publisher. [TS]

01:04:09   But I also would like to eat away at Apple share a little bit because I'm not comfortable with anybody. [TS]

01:04:13   Having that much power over. Over a market. Even when it is Apple in the end they've been pretty good about it so far. [TS]

01:04:20   You know the the other side of this is. Suppose you want to do online video online video is just You Tube. [TS]

01:04:26   These days like you might as well just say You Tube because that's what online video means to most people. You Tube. [TS]

01:04:31   It is so dominated by one company. [TS]

01:04:34   And also that company is constantly messing with the terms and constantly changing the way it works. [TS]

01:04:40   They are they are really not a great owner of that. Entire medium. [TS]

01:04:44   Because they have shown over and over again that they're willing to change things around for their own benefit [TS]

01:04:49   and to be opaque and to to make changes that might be in your own best interest of the publisher and things like that. [TS]

01:04:54   But if you try to publish video. Really anywhere except you tube. And it's very hard to get any viewership. [TS]

01:05:01   So I don't want pod cast to ever reach that point. Right now they are vulnerable to that with Apple's market share. [TS]

01:05:09   That only you know Apple is not the kind of company to do that generally. [TS]

01:05:13   But you know things change people change companies change anything can happen. [TS]

01:05:17   So ideally I would like to diversify the market so much that. Not only does nobody get the power determines. [TS]

01:05:25   But that Apple doesn't have the power either. You don't have to post your video to Facebook. [TS]

01:05:30   Huge of behavior ship you just posted a Facebook. Yeah there's that issue as well. Maybe you. [TS]

01:05:37   Maybe it's a do up your is she was your poise and exactly. [TS]

01:05:42   The two giants fight each other over who has not because yeah. [TS]

01:05:44   I think we're all stuff far protected by a pod gas being such a drop in the bucket. But you know I don't know. [TS]

01:05:52   Like I mean every time I see stories about you know. New podcast initiatives the whole cereal thing and even the. [TS]

01:05:59   You know that friend of yours or the gimlet media something like that anyway. [TS]

01:06:05   Any time those stories go in you know when Pod gets get rediscovered by the mass media briefly for on the two [TS]

01:06:12   or three year cycle that it's on. People get excited to about being a thing but then it's kind of like. [TS]

01:06:19   Then it quiets down and. [TS]

01:06:21   I'm not sure if it ever crosses the threshold into a matter of real mass media [TS]

01:06:28   and I'm not sure of even cross the threshold into like reading like has in books or you know paper books [TS]

01:06:33   or your books which I still think is just a massively larger business and podcasts. Will ever be. [TS]

01:06:40   So could be the ecosystem is never interesting enough for Apple to wake up and try to wrest control of it [TS]

01:06:46   but if they did. [TS]

01:06:48   Yeah I don't know what the hedge is against that the hedge is the hedge you [TS]

01:06:51   and your little mice equal database with a bunch of podcasts and it is that it. [TS]

01:06:55   That always got it just you know I don't know or stitcher. That's not you know. No I mean like. [TS]

01:07:00   Ideally the hedge is lots of other people who has the who has a directory because you have your own directory right [TS]

01:07:06   that's what Yeah I have my own. But I will still search i Tunes as a fallback. [TS]

01:07:11   You know to get stuff that I if I can't find anything right. Well so who else has their own directory at all. [TS]

01:07:16   Microsoft has one. I don't know how big it is. But they do have one. There's a kind of like one or two others around. [TS]

01:07:23   I know Google I've heard many very very strong rumblings that Google is working on a major pod cast initiative. [TS]

01:07:31   I don't know anything about it but I know they're working on a major progress addition I bet it involves ads. [TS]

01:07:39   And I think about it but right and you know [TS]

01:07:41   and again like this is how much power do you want Google to have over this medium. [TS]

01:07:47   The more diverse we can get it to be. The less they can dictate terms. [TS]

01:07:51   So this is this is not going to stay still podcasts are becoming big. They're getting lots of attention. [TS]

01:07:58   We have to be very defensive and skeptical about how this is going to go in the future we have to like. [TS]

01:08:05   I think it's really worth fighting for this and. Because we lost. Video long ago right at the start we lost. Text. [TS]

01:08:13   Mostly. Now the these days. I don't want to lose podcasting to these big private centralized proprietary things. [TS]

01:08:22   You know it's probably protecting podcasts right now is the incompetence of car makers because I thought that's still [TS]

01:08:27   kind of the linchpin like when we were kids. Radio dominated because cars had radios in them like. [TS]

01:08:31   I think in the in the home. The and the advent of television. [TS]

01:08:35   Replaced radio for a lot of things all the people still had radios at work wherever listen to. [TS]

01:08:40   We're you know trust your radio it's been all screwed up or whatever. And the replacement of. [TS]

01:08:46   You know a podcast of the replacement they're independent you get what you want there. You know free. [TS]

01:08:51   They're all Internet powered and. [TS]

01:08:53   Once our cars can all play a podcast using their ubiquitous Internet connections and their apps [TS]

01:08:58   and their apple cart play. [TS]

01:08:59   That's been such a mess like it's clearly not there yet if you can snap your fingers and say starting now. [TS]

01:09:04   Every car you buy anywhere in the world can play any pod cast. [TS]

01:09:09   And it's like well podcast a really made it now because then people who have never heard of POD guess that it's grow up [TS]

01:09:14   in a world where you go into a car. And you somehow search for YOU KNOW THIS AMERICAN LIFE. [TS]

01:09:19   And it plays that whenever you want. [TS]

01:09:21   And you don't know how it happens in the same way that you grew up in a car and you press the little preset button. [TS]

01:09:25   And the radio station comes on you listen to music right. That is the. The final form. [TS]

01:09:31   If you will of podcasts and that is the true replacement for radio only it's on demand and it's diversified [TS]

01:09:36   and whatever. But you can get that. [TS]

01:09:38   If Facebook owns podcast or Google on Spike as in fact it may come faster of one company owns pod casts or whatever. [TS]

01:09:47   I'm trying to division a world in which a car makers get their acts together. To actually. You know sort of. [TS]

01:09:53   I don't know. It's not like agreeing on a standard but like. [TS]

01:09:56   If you get everyone in a room and say we all agree right podcast or just an R.S.S. [TS]

01:09:59   Feed and that's where they come from and no one is going to support any particular company. [TS]

01:10:04   But if one of those companies got big if it was Google or Apple or Microsoft [TS]

01:10:07   or even a stitcher gets bigger something and somehow. You know what kind of like a X.M. [TS]

01:10:12   Radio on Sirius got their claws into the audience auto industry for a while there. [TS]

01:10:16   Where I like it used to be you can get radio in your thing and you get satellite radio [TS]

01:10:20   and I was one of two companies and they merged. They parked right those two. Yeah one one bought the other one out. [TS]

01:10:26   Luckily satellite radio was terrible. [TS]

01:10:27   So the worry too much about that like technology was their limitations there that aren't going to you know. GO BIG BUT. [TS]

01:10:35   The final iteration of cars is hey a car is that Internet connection then cars can listen to music and they give us [TS]

01:10:41   and. You know music is already. Proprietary eyes to whatever the word as you know it Spotify example music gets R.D.O. [TS]

01:10:49   It's always other things. [TS]

01:10:50   So there's no hope of that being like oh we just add support for this protocol anyone can publish you know that's [TS]

01:10:56   already proprietary podcast have a chance of a chance Len chance of remaining in the sort of neutral open state long [TS]

01:11:04   enough for cars to get their app act together. Such that all cars have some crappy podcast player in them. [TS]

01:11:11   And once the ball starts rolling on that if it gets going it could end up being like like the web I guess is the best [TS]

01:11:17   example of like the Web got out the door before anyone can really get control of it Microsoft tried. [TS]

01:11:21   And basically fell but you can make something with the web browser now. And it can browse the web. [TS]

01:11:27   You know the Web browser engines are open source you can make one of the Make A lot of Web page. [TS]

01:11:31   That's not only controlled by a single company. Podcast have a chance of that but right now. [TS]

01:11:35   I think the expectation is of that if person buys a new car. That car cannot play a pod cast. [TS]

01:11:39   Except perhaps through a Bluetooth integration with their i Phone using an application I think that is still too [TS]

01:11:44   complicated for most people most of us want to go into a car. [TS]

01:11:48   And like have a preset button that the favor pod casting press plane a star play the next up letter sent like that. [TS]

01:11:55   The example of some of satellite radio I think was the was the best counter-example to this which is that you know [TS]

01:12:01   satellite radio. That you know you're right came in. It got a got great integration into cars where we're now. [TS]

01:12:08   Almost every car that you buy in the US at least has an option for satellite radio many of them even bundled into other [TS]

01:12:16   packages that you might get anyway. So there it's very it's very common. [TS]

01:12:20   But you had to pay for it which is a real killer like obviously pocket integration wouldn't be like oh you have to pay [TS]

01:12:25   X. Dollars a month. Right but either way like the hardware was there. And it still hasn't caught on and I think. [TS]

01:12:33   I think what will protect podcast in the car. [TS]

01:12:37   From that kind of like Begin to Gratian deal kind of world is the same thing that has made satellite radio even less [TS]

01:12:42   relevant today than it was before. Which is my always say. Don't bet against the smartphone. [TS]

01:12:49   The smartphone is what is what is killing satellite radio finally I mean satellite radios been like kind of half dead [TS]

01:12:55   for a long time. I mean forever. But it's the smartphone will kill it for good. [TS]

01:13:01   The fact is like Internet connected cars like I think this is. [TS]

01:13:06   This is probably like a half step well through through your phone like obviously I'm not saying you're going to pay [TS]

01:13:11   but that would be if that would be a payment thing too I was going to pay for your cell access [TS]

01:13:14   and then you can have a home with you when you're in a car but I feel like it's not there. [TS]

01:13:17   Like as someone who owns probably the lowest [TS]

01:13:19   and possible car you can get that does connect to your phone play audience it works [TS]

01:13:24   but it is not the type of thing that I would say. [TS]

01:13:27   Just get this car and it will just you know you want to do anything you know just figure it out and it's. [TS]

01:13:32   It's really slow sometimes a Bluetooth doesn't connect the ties into Gerber's no carry the bluetooth is the worst thing [TS]

01:13:38   ever and preventing the future of Internet of Things that whatever but. [TS]

01:13:42   But honestly like sometimes it doesn't connect a Bluetooth audio sometimes takes a long time you can't tell if it's [TS]

01:13:47   working it's not going to talk to a bluetooth on and off. [TS]

01:13:49   When it does work there's enough of a delay that you're not quite sure whether it's working as you have to decide [TS]

01:13:53   whether you set there and wait for the audio just to switch over whether you start driving [TS]

01:13:56   and hope that it will like it's not a seamless. [TS]

01:13:59   It's still can I feel like it's still a nerd experience [TS]

01:14:01   but you're right that's the way it has to go we don't going to pay a separate monthly fee for there. Although. [TS]

01:14:07   Boy I don't have a rising but they would love that they could charge money [TS]

01:14:10   but no one really wants to pay a separate monthly fee for the card to have Internet access. [TS]

01:14:14   And if you're going to have your phone with you anyway. Really just need. [TS]

01:14:18   You know good car interment getting back like a car play and all you know good. Smartphone car integration. [TS]

01:14:25   Once that becomes. I think we're all. [TS]

01:14:28   So do you think where there were the audio for for i Pod car into Gratian we kind of had that nice period where it was [TS]

01:14:34   like car said thirty pin connectors in them or a U.S.B. Type thing. [TS]

01:14:37   And you would have ipod integration I thought that worked pretty reliably [TS]

01:14:40   but that was obviously a pre wireless technology. I mean I think we're. [TS]

01:14:45   I think we are really pretty much there now for Bluetooth thought. Oh and which is even better. [TS]

01:14:51   Bluetooth is so much about him B.M.W. Is not I either. [TS]

01:14:55   Even other cars like everything if I get rental cars a triad I know other people who try it. [TS]

01:14:58   Usually Blues who the audience is not perfect but most of the time pretty good. [TS]

01:15:05   You know the audios finances the connection like is I have bluetooth audio that's not you know I'm talking about with [TS]

01:15:10   the integration like you need more sophisticated integration for progress to go on actually put up an onscreen display [TS]

01:15:15   the gives you more than just Mehta data as if it's a music track like you'd like to be able to. [TS]

01:15:20   I don't know but that's all you need. I mean like when you when you're playing in the car like. [TS]

01:15:23   That's all that's all I need. You know one of the reasons why I haven't explored. Options like making a like a B.M.W. [TS]

01:15:31   App for it. One of the reasons why is because the Bluetooth integration is just good enough. And you know. [TS]

01:15:38   It's really really convenient that used to get in the car. [TS]

01:15:42   And the phone and the phone can stay in your pocket you just get in the car [TS]

01:15:45   and a few seconds later it starts playing your podcast right real left off on your phone. [TS]

01:15:50   Much more than a few seconds in crappy cars [TS]

01:15:52   and sometimes never forgive him inexplicably doesn't connect like I'll not saying is that I think that's not that's not [TS]

01:15:57   there yet for regular people like it's not it's not the type of thing where you can just assure somebody do you have. [TS]

01:16:03   Do you have a smartphone. Period. When you buy a new car. Any car. [TS]

01:16:08   You will be able to listen to podcasts in the car and there's nothing only to do [TS]

01:16:11   and no manual you need to read no fussing yelling to do [TS]

01:16:13   or no cabbie outs about remember don't start driving to the audio place because it may not be connected to Bluetooth. [TS]

01:16:17   And you better take care of that before you start moving otherwise you'll be trying to use that screen while you're [TS]

01:16:21   moving you're going to run over a kid. You know John maybe it's time for you to buy a nice car. [TS]

01:16:28   I'm saying like most people are buying cars like this [TS]

01:16:30   and also buying cars don't have any platoon the Gratian at this point so it's I think it's starting to get really true. [TS]

01:16:36   I don't know a lot of very very cheap cars like my brother in law just got a brand new Civic [TS]

01:16:42   and admitted leader cheaper cars in the Civic [TS]

01:16:44   but I think the Civic is kind of a decent barometer for what a reasonably priced car is these days [TS]

01:16:50   and his has what I would call comfort access it has you know the proximity key. [TS]

01:16:55   I believe in its Bluetooth it has a humongous touchscreen on it which I don't think is navigation other. [TS]

01:17:00   So there are options. Those are all options. Sure but I mean I don't know a lot of people that buy a truly strict car. [TS]

01:17:08   I mean you didn't buy a truly stripped car you didn't get the best. Package. [TS]

01:17:12   My first car didn't matter of a passenger side mirrors on talking about the head or all up windows. [TS]

01:17:19   I'm surprised it was legal to not have a window like the Emmy a mirror. Like that's great. [TS]

01:17:23   He's a very old Martha car the car is really the car was really small [TS]

01:17:27   and honestly like if you want to get used to it not being there. I don't know. It wasn't. [TS]

01:17:33   I wanted like about obviously with the asymmetry like a sense of setting there's no way doesn't have the right. Anyway. [TS]

01:17:39   It was fun. Also the cool like a little joystick that controlled mirrors like instead of power mirrors at the little. [TS]

01:17:46   Everything was manual. Nice. Anyway. [TS]

01:17:49   This is all getting off track of the podcast [TS]

01:17:51   and I've never I feel like that is the what with this podcast of like old these stories in the paper [TS]

01:17:57   and pockets are big and about the money involved in as the season is serial and ball law. [TS]

01:18:02   I feel like we're not over the hump yet. With podcasts. We didn't like and to give an example. [TS]

01:18:07   We got over the hump with like digital music. I Pods are everywhere. I Pod swept away. You know. [TS]

01:18:13   Didn't use except the way. Did a music on plastic desks. [TS]

01:18:17   Was swept away by digital music on little tiny hard drives and eventually flash ips and stuff so that Rev. [TS]

01:18:23   I'm happened. The podcast. Supplanting radio talk radio for most people. I thought has not happened. Talk radio. [TS]

01:18:32   As terrible as it is. I think is still the dominant form of people listening to other people talking. [TS]

01:18:39   Yeah but I do think pod casting is replacing it you know it's just it's not happening. [TS]

01:18:44   Rapidly but it is happening I mean if you look at most like podcast. You know growth grass or whatever. [TS]

01:18:50   Over the last few years. It doesn't appear to be accelerating rapidly. [TS]

01:18:55   It's just going up slowly and steadily the way it always has and I think that's not going to continue. [TS]

01:19:01   You know it's just. It is slowly steadily getting more popular. [TS]

01:19:05   It is not really ever going down and so over time it will replace talk radio. [TS]

01:19:10   For most people just it'll take a while I mean a lot of people still read newspapers or I mean it's. [TS]

01:19:15   But I that's not a growth industry. [TS]

01:19:20   So I think we have I think we are really in the early days of a transition that is definitely happening. [TS]

01:19:26   Right oh he should move on to your intentional destruction of the open blogging platform on the internet [TS]

01:19:33   but first on several more sponsor. Our files bunch of this week is Lynda dot com. [TS]

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01:21:41   With access to all courses at L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. Thanks a lot. So you don't like the open. [TS]

01:21:49   Blogging platform you decided to post here. Which one do one of the ones about the new version of our guest on medium. [TS]

01:21:56   Yes a proprietary platform. Under control by a single company. I cross posted to make a better. [TS]

01:22:03   Little bit and rights of others why why did you decide to. C.S.O. My. My latest post on my site. [TS]

01:22:10   I posted on my site and also I posted a copy of it on medium. Medium is really big now. I want to understand it. [TS]

01:22:18   And you know there's only so much understand you can do. [TS]

01:22:21   Of a blogging platform really it's you know it's a glorified social blogging platform. [TS]

01:22:26   There's only so much of understanding you can really have that actually blocking on it at least once. So. [TS]

01:22:33   This company is so big I think it's unwise to be unfamiliar with it especially as you know they aren't. [TS]

01:22:41   The biggest company on the web but they are incredibly influential [TS]

01:22:45   and incredibly popular among people like in our circles among with the tech people. The early adopters. [TS]

01:22:52   The kind of tech media space. It is disproportionately popular among that crowd so. I want to understand it. [TS]

01:22:59   Why is that do you think. Why is a popular with that crowd. So. So having used it for one post. [TS]

01:23:04   With This is not a lot of experience but a flop more than you have right. Having used for one post. [TS]

01:23:10   I can say that the editor is fine. Everyone has the music it's. [TS]

01:23:15   You know it's fine doesn't support Marc damage unfortunate but it's fine. [TS]

01:23:19   It was nice having social feedback right there. Like people doing the highlights and people doing. [TS]

01:23:28   The little recommender like I'm so not clear whether to recommend [TS]

01:23:30   or like with those two different things I don't even know. [TS]

01:23:33   But you know getting all the feedback right there to see like all the different people people you know who would heart [TS]

01:23:40   recommend like it or whatever and then you know his little book. Highlights and everything and. [TS]

01:23:46   Yes a few of the comments for kind of interesting. So it was nice to have that level of instant feedback it was. [TS]

01:23:53   It was like the way Twitter provide instant feedback when you tweet things. [TS]

01:23:58   It was like that but you know different and more of it and directly on the blog post like Tom. [TS]

01:24:03   Like tumbler of the bottom or psych who you know really whatever that someone has a similar thing or doesn't. [TS]

01:24:08   Yeah in line on the right margin but you know you could post something on tumblr [TS]

01:24:12   and immediately see a bunch of little people's Avatar icons appear on the bottom. Exactly exactly. [TS]

01:24:16   So it's very similar tumblr but you know [TS]

01:24:18   but focused on actual blogs like on tumblr you can use tumbler for a twelve paragraph blog post. [TS]

01:24:25   But very few people will read it because it's a that's not really the mood you're in your browsing tumbler you're in [TS]

01:24:31   like a skimming mode because that's all the rest of the content is a scam a bull stuff. [TS]

01:24:35   So nobody wants to stop and read some giant long post. Whereas media. [TS]

01:24:40   That's the whole point of the service is to read people's text. That is the whole point. [TS]

01:24:45   And it's so it's normal to go there and see something that has twelve paragraphs long. So I decided yeah. [TS]

01:24:52   I want to try I wanted to see what it was like. And the feedback. And the community aspect of it. Do seem pretty nice. [TS]

01:25:01   In the past I've been critical of medium because I've said which I still agree with that you are not writing for [TS]

01:25:09   yourself you're writing for medium. You know in the same way like. [TS]

01:25:12   When he when you give Twitter homes your content there. You know you're really doing Twitter big favor. [TS]

01:25:17   Yourself you know you're kind of it's. It's of mixed value. Right. [TS]

01:25:20   So the reason why you might want to publish on medium. Now. If. If what your if. [TS]

01:25:29   If your goal your primary goal is not like to become a writer. [TS]

01:25:34   Necessarily or to to have people to develop your own audience. [TS]

01:25:37   But like to spread a message to to spread some idea to spread some like you know. A post. [TS]

01:25:46   If your main job isn't writing. And your writing it for some other reason. [TS]

01:25:50   Like to make an argument or to promote something or whatever the case may be. It is really good for that. [TS]

01:25:56   And so I kind of wants to try for that from that point of view like. I'm writing this post that is it is an idea. [TS]

01:26:03   It is kind of to promote overcast. Or is that that's an ancillary benefit of it. My site has been pretty slow. [TS]

01:26:11   Recently. That's totally my fault of course. So like the idea of like taking any attention away from my site. [TS]

01:26:19   You know that there wasn't much attention on my site to begin with wasn't it wasn't that big of an expense to try it. [TS]

01:26:25   It also was an exclusive they don't require it to be exclusive so I got to have all those benefits of all that [TS]

01:26:30   attention there. While not taking away from my site. [TS]

01:26:34   Why does a why this medium get you more attention than you posting on your own side though that is to your else on the [TS]

01:26:39   Web Why is it the one posting it to your site and posting it to me in water more people see it on medium. [TS]

01:26:45   That is a very good and very relevant question and I don't know the overall answer to that. But certainly you can. [TS]

01:26:53   You can kind of tell on the web to day. It is pretty hard to get good traffic to a blog post. [TS]

01:27:00   It is much easier to get good traffic in social environments. And the fact is you've got to go where the readers are. [TS]

01:27:08   You know if you if you want something to spread like that you have to go where the people actually go where the [TS]

01:27:12   consumers are. And for the kinds of things I was writing. [TS]

01:27:17   Medium has a whole lot of those Yeah but where I mean like physically. [TS]

01:27:21   Mechanically speaking what how are the people there how does anyone find your post on Medium other than seeing you link [TS]

01:27:27   to it from your blog. [TS]

01:27:28   I don't understand obviously I don't use the service so I don't understand well there's like there's like social [TS]

01:27:32   recommendations and there's like you know top of the did in this. [TS]

01:27:35   You know this time period are among your friends or whatever. [TS]

01:27:37   So kind of like like like tech memory whatever you think people. [TS]

01:27:40   Rousing the front page [TS]

01:27:41   or medium I know there is a follower thing because I was getting e-mail saying people followed me a medium [TS]

01:27:45   and I feel bad because I don't think I've ever written anything there [TS]

01:27:48   but anyway so you have an account you have followers [TS]

01:27:50   and presumably if I ever posted something the media my seventeen followers on medium would see that I posted it. [TS]

01:27:54   But are people I guess like using it kind of like Reddit where you go to the front page of medium and look at the top. [TS]

01:28:01   Things top voted by people you follow or something. I suppose I mean I haven't been using it enough to know. [TS]

01:28:07   I mean I'm a nut. None of us are doing that obviously right I mean. [TS]

01:28:10   Whenever I see a lot of media and post your I but when I see them. I threw them into it's basically. [TS]

01:28:15   That's where I see like links to media. And then that and that contacts from my perspective. [TS]

01:28:20   That could just as easily have been like the market organ and would have seen it as much [TS]

01:28:23   but maybe other people are using medium differently and they're going to it like they go to Reddit pages [TS]

01:28:27   and just Or like tech memory until I got in just going to the what the hell is the front page of me I'm like oh look [TS]

01:28:32   it's like since like editorial collections of stuff I think. So in in recent years. [TS]

01:28:37   Every time I write a post on my site these days. I also tweet about it. And the main reason I do that is because. [TS]

01:28:44   As The fact is way more people are reading Twitter. Than browsing than than subscribe to my R.S.S. [TS]

01:28:51   Feed and checking my R.S.S. Feed. Regularly. [TS]

01:28:54   And also Twitter provides feedback mechanisms and ways for people to spread it with three tweets and links [TS]

01:29:01   and Reeve logs or whatever so there's all these all these values that Twitter brings me. [TS]

01:29:06   In in my publishing medium is another one of these venues where there is a lot of activity happening there is a lot of [TS]

01:29:15   people reading it. There's a lot of people. Recommending and sharing stuff there to other people there. [TS]

01:29:20   And so the idea of cross posting make your posts there doesn't sound like crazy to me more because now you know as I [TS]

01:29:28   said like. I don't think medium is a good idea. [TS]

01:29:31   If you have like John Gruber shouldn't be publishing his main articles on medium. [TS]

01:29:36   Because he has already a giant audience for his site. And that is his business that is his main business. [TS]

01:29:42   My site is no longer my main business and never really was. But you know. [TS]

01:29:46   The ads on my site are are decreasingly necessary for my business. [TS]

01:29:52   Meanwhile the ideas I'm talking about deep things I'm linking to things I'm promoting my apps. [TS]

01:29:59   My own brand all these things are becoming more more important to me over time. [TS]

01:30:04   Relative to how many people go to my blog. And if. If the people who use medium. Are going to be reading my stuff. [TS]

01:30:13   In medium. The alternative I think is not that they would come to my site and read it. [TS]

01:30:19   Necessarily as the alternative is more likely that they just wouldn't read it. So I can still like. [TS]

01:30:24   I don't I don't really see the harm in people who are who have the kind of goals I have which is not to develop a giant [TS]

01:30:31   following on my site. Only. But you know to to maintain my site and to write things on something I own. [TS]

01:30:37   But to also go to where the people are. Because the things I'm writing. Have more value to me. [TS]

01:30:43   The more people read them. I guess I'm the Marco and the scenario because I would I'm also. I'm also not trying to my. [TS]

01:30:50   My site is not a business that does not have ads on a number has a did has no readers like [TS]

01:30:54   but I was still never put anything there on medium. [TS]

01:30:56   And I maybe it's because I also don't care people actually find and read it you know I just feel like I don't. [TS]

01:31:02   Why would I give them something that I wrote unless they paid me a lesson like freelance writing is like a well songs [TS]

01:31:07   to pay me to write something for their side that's the same deal that I would do with any other side Sure. [TS]

01:31:12   You know if I met them in the mood to do freelance writing and someone you know I picked someone an idea [TS]

01:31:16   or they pitch me hey would you want to write this either say yes or no [TS]

01:31:19   but outside of the realm of freelance writing I just had an idea and wanted to write it. [TS]

01:31:24   I would put it on my blog that nobody reads. And I would never put it on medium for free. [TS]

01:31:28   But I guess I mean I don't have any of the remote if you do have something to promote their Like I'm also I guess I'm [TS]

01:31:33   not concerned with trying to get my message out but I think that's the main difference like. [TS]

01:31:38   I don't think it matters whether it's my you know. It's not a business at all for me. [TS]

01:31:43   But that doesn't weigh in [TS]

01:31:44   and I said I guess this has to go down to Do you care about getting this to the widest number of people posits a reason [TS]

01:31:50   I don't post links to my stuff to Facebook. [TS]

01:31:52   I bet that would get more people to read it but it's just not what I do you know. You don't face with people. [TS]

01:31:57   Well you know. I went through the feedback anyway it's my side doesn't have any comments. Now that me. [TS]

01:32:02   So you know basically. I think there's a spectrum of like what. [TS]

01:32:06   What is right to do and what feels right for you to do cross posting. Significant post to medium. I think is. [TS]

01:32:14   Somewhere along the spectrum. But further along it of course. Then linking to everything you write from Twitter. [TS]

01:32:21   Like they're both ways. To go where the people are. [TS]

01:32:25   And to try to build value for yourself somehow in the case of leaking from Twitter that's better for you because your [TS]

01:32:31   point them to your site. [TS]

01:32:33   But you know given someone else here words to you they're not saying because I'm pondering over the deal is [TS]

01:32:37   when you put it on medium but I'm sure they have some rights to it once you pay the entire text box. Sure. [TS]

01:32:42   I mean they have to leave have the right to life display it and you know move it around copy [TS]

01:32:45   and stuff like that so show ads against that God knows what that are right so. [TS]

01:32:49   So the question is What do you know what are your needs. For what you're writing what are you going for. [TS]

01:32:54   If you're going for maximum spread. I would say it is wise to crosspost things there. [TS]

01:33:00   If you're going for building up your own site. Then probably isn't. But it depends you know. [TS]

01:33:07   It might be a way to help you get started to bring people possibly maybe to your site although I don't think a lot of [TS]

01:33:11   people would but who knows. But it is a tool that on the spectrum. And I wanted to understand it better. [TS]

01:33:17   And that's why I did and I don't know if I don't know if I'll do it again. [TS]

01:33:20   It is annoying to have two different versions of what you write have all been a mess now through their Google juice. [TS]

01:33:25   Yeah like Google my view is duplicate content [TS]

01:33:28   or maybe I think the medium one of the original in yours is the duplicate [TS]

01:33:30   and downgrade your site because it's like your copy paste. You know. [TS]

01:33:34   Duplicating someone else's content even though you're the same person. Right so again. [TS]

01:33:38   I don't know if I'm to keep doing it. I might keep doing it for major posts. [TS]

01:33:42   Like things were like I really want this to have maximum audience because again. [TS]

01:33:45   It's a tool to do that I'm happy I did this with this post because it really did help me understand medium a lot better [TS]

01:33:53   understand why somebody like me would even want to use it. So I call it a success. [TS]

01:33:59   So what will the do you want to share numbers like a percentage wise like you know we did again twice [TS]

01:34:04   but your market are good thing ten percent [TS]

01:34:06   but your market are going out like over the spread of hits on hold on I don't even know if it helps me how many hits [TS]

01:34:13   like. I know I have about four hundred recommendations and fifteen balloons. Comments I don't know what you know. [TS]

01:34:25   So they don't even tell your head so you don't even know how much it spread. I mean for all you know that. [TS]

01:34:30   That means you've got four hundred people to read it. Yeah. I don't know but I mean four hundred recommendations. [TS]

01:34:37   That's a lot I think that's well feel like like to have to have like a basically a like action on something to get four [TS]

01:34:46   hundred likes on something is a lot of. [TS]

01:34:48   I mean it would be a lot if it was faves on Twitter but it's not a lot for Taylor Swift. Well. [TS]

01:34:52   I'm not chiller so I don't know what the ratio is of readers to to like [TS]

01:34:57   or is on medium you know maybe a difference a different social space. [TS]

01:35:00   That is there I think I have a good handle on what the ratio is on Twitter. [TS]

01:35:03   But and medium I really don't know [TS]

01:35:05   and I read a lot I guess that even though I don't read anything I mean I read a lot of media [TS]

01:35:08   and post every time I read one I'm like What made this person write this on medium. [TS]

01:35:12   And why these comments in the margin. Well OK so you know next time you write a post in about three years. [TS]

01:35:19   Nice to crosspost there. Try to never. I'll never join you. It is it is I think useful to understand it. [TS]

01:35:27   If you're in the business of writing on the web. [TS]

01:35:29   You don't necessarily have to constantly post everything there or switch to it but I think it is worth understanding. [TS]

01:35:37   I don't know what the problem I have with it is like John I've read a bunch of things on medium and. [TS]

01:35:43   I cannot remember a time that I've paid any real attention to who wrote it. So if. [TS]

01:35:50   If the exercise was just understand medium than Sure. Called a success if the exercise was to get your thoughts out. [TS]

01:35:56   Anonymously. Then it's a probably a success. [TS]

01:36:00   Granted in this case the particular post you made was heavily about your own experience [TS]

01:36:06   and most people know who you are in this context so I guess maybe this. [TS]

01:36:11   This is an instance of that's fine for Marco [TS]

01:36:13   but I feel like for for normal person it would certainly propagate content better than just putting it on your own [TS]

01:36:21   website one cleared myself in that. [TS]

01:36:23   But I don't think anyone would remember a medium post I put up that wasn't about me as being written by me. [TS]

01:36:31   I just I don't feel like there's that ownership in the face in the Brenn sense that there is on your own website. [TS]

01:36:39   Or even your own like Tumblr account because at least a little more account you presumably styled your your site your [TS]

01:36:49   blog in such a way that it is in some way unique and yes I know there's a lot of cookie cutter Tumblr themes [TS]

01:36:55   but it stands to seem to me that a lot of tumblr if not most Tumblr sites [TS]

01:37:00   or visually unique words every medium post just looks like a medium post. [TS]

01:37:04   I would say it's similar in that regard to Twitter and Tumblr. [TS]

01:37:08   Like you know you have your little news your name and your avatar. [TS]

01:37:11   But you know when you read tweets like if you see if you see something that was retreated from somebody else. [TS]

01:37:16   You know how how much she really seeing their name [TS]

01:37:19   and you know it's like it's very similar to those things in that regard so it is nothing like having your own site. [TS]

01:37:25   But it isn't you know. [TS]

01:37:27   There are things that we already have that are like this you know [TS]

01:37:30   and it we can see like kind of how that works on to learn Twitter where like. You know you if you. [TS]

01:37:35   If you see somebody is name come up more than a couple times. [TS]

01:37:39   You'll probably remember in the all you had that person you know I've been I've been seen [TS]

01:37:42   or stuff a lot maybe go follow them. And it's very similar in those regards not like blogging. You know but it's. [TS]

01:37:49   Again. I think it's worth understanding. [TS]

01:37:51   What do you choose to use it or not is certainly up for debate and I don't even know if I'm going to keep using it [TS]

01:37:56   but I'm glad I understand a little bit better now. [TS]

01:37:59   Marcos the release all the applications make the Internet angry [TS]

01:38:02   and I mean is I mean I didn't even have time to talk about the new IMAX you have an IMAX after show. [TS]

01:38:07   That's about how exciting they're thankful two or three sponsors this week. [TS]

01:38:10   Casper Squarespace and Lynda dot com and we'll see you next week. Now the show is over. [TS]

01:38:19   They didn't even mean to be good because it was accidental. It was accidental. John good morning. [TS]

01:38:30   The Mongols Keesey wouldn't count. Because it was that dental was accidental. And you can find shown on today. Easy. [TS]

01:38:43   And if you're trying to follow them and he was no says that ski lifts and the [TS]

01:38:56   and can't see Marco our women on our history. Let's say that risky is. [TS]

01:39:17   I think they're exciting because I'm angry about things. [TS]

01:39:20   Oh you're angry you're angry about we're all angry about Erling [TS]

01:39:24   or about fifty four hundred rpm drive even though none of us are going to buy that model. [TS]

01:39:27   That is worse than sixteen gigs. That is that is so bad. [TS]

01:39:31   I don't I don't know what's the I don't know what's going on there. I don't under. I don't understand how this. [TS]

01:39:36   Like the old Apple would never do that just because putting up with these [TS]

01:39:40   and all of them would lead your charge more money but the. The low in one is like a thousand dollars. But it's. [TS]

01:39:46   It's a rip off a thousand dollars know what the hundred. No no the lowest lowest and the small phone on retina. [TS]

01:39:53   Let me say. I'm just the page of a slow and retina six hundred. But it's. [TS]

01:39:57   I mean first of all you know let's let's do the pre-school math we're going to start by saying something nice.. [TS]

01:40:03   I like that much more of the lineup now is right now like by by throwing in this mid-range i Mac. [TS]

01:40:09   And by getting rid of some of the non red nose. I'm very happy to see retina spreading. Very deeply into the lineup. [TS]

01:40:15   I'm very very happy about that. It has nice C.P. Use. Not the best possible one of the nice ones. [TS]

01:40:25   And it looks pretty OK now for the bad. Yeah the fifteen hundred one. [TS]

01:40:30   Also I see what you're saying though the I was I was talking about the bottom of the line one has to fifty four hundred [TS]

01:40:35   R.P.M. Drive but so does the very first reading. I want to four K. Twenty one right. [TS]

01:40:41   So I mean the very bottom of the line when that's the want to have like the mac book Air internals. [TS]

01:40:44   And that's that is not new like we've had one like that for. But a couple of years now. I think or your son like that. [TS]

01:40:52   That's fine. You know if you want to super super cheap Apple desktop. The keep my mac is very slow. [TS]

01:40:58   But it works but is it fine because the air at least has an S.S.D. [TS]

01:41:01   I feel like such a fundamental change in the experience of using a Mac. [TS]

01:41:04   That I need an error is going to stomp all over the stand. [TS]

01:41:09   That's the thing so that's what I just and they also by the way they made fusion drive a little worse. Whereas now the. [TS]

01:41:17   The one terabyte fusion drive went from having one hundred twenty eight megs of flash caching to twenty four gigs I [TS]

01:41:24   mean. Hundred twenty eight gigs twenty four gigs. [TS]

01:41:26   Now when I almost kind of give them more of a path on it's chancy and. It reeks of being counting. [TS]

01:41:32   But it's conceivable that they know that twenty four gigs is enough to keep the working set. [TS]

01:41:38   You know I mean I don't know what the workings that is for the average person in terms of the keeping the stuff on the [TS]

01:41:42   fast storage. [TS]

01:41:43   Maybe twenty four gigs is hard for me to believe that that would be viable [TS]

01:41:47   but I can believe that one twenty eight might be overkill for most people for the working set of what they do in maybe [TS]

01:41:51   there are have more intelligent. Shuttling of things from the. The Fast Orange to the slow storage.. [TS]

01:41:57   I'm not sure how much that would affect things but just having no S.S.D. And a really slow two point five inch drive. [TS]

01:42:03   So going back in time it's like using I have. [TS]

01:42:05   Yeah I have one of those on my desk right now the non-unit body aluminum MacBook Pro has only a spinning disc in it [TS]

01:42:12   and it is just super painful to use. It's like you think it's broken to take so long for things to happen. [TS]

01:42:18   Yep that's my personal machine. [TS]

01:42:20   This old high resent eclair MacBook Pro with a seven twenty gig splatter drive in it and [TS]

01:42:26   but you know I bet your planet I was at least seventy one our PM. [TS]

01:42:29   You know I don't recall offhand but you're probably right. But it is it is so impossibly slow. That genuinely. [TS]

01:42:37   I have wondered numerous times just like you said is this broken because there's no way it's trying to accomplish [TS]

01:42:43   something. However on the plus side. [TS]

01:42:45   I don't need any sort of monitoring tools in my menu bar because I can just put my ear close to the draw. [TS]

01:42:50   And here it go could protect and was sleep. You don't need monitoring tools in your menu bar period. You know. [TS]

01:42:58   All right I mean that's kind of silly because we're not going to buy that machine. [TS]

01:43:01   But it's like we're thinking of it from the perspective just like the sixteen gig phones even though we're not going to [TS]

01:43:05   buy them that potentially. If we just say. [TS]

01:43:08   And a friend or relative into an Apple store to buy a computer [TS]

01:43:11   and they buy the cheapest one they end up with a machine that we think is like not even like you should if that's the [TS]

01:43:16   only one you can afford you should not buy a Mac. You should buy a P.C. or and I Pad or something else or different Mac. [TS]

01:43:24   Yeah. [TS]

01:43:24   Well you know [TS]

01:43:24   but again it's if that's the only one you can afford is the bottom of the bottom of the line not random act.. [TS]

01:43:29   It's just not a good machine with the drive and the bottom. You know the bottom line for K. I Mac. [TS]

01:43:34   It's not a good machine with that drive in it and. I don't know if people like. [TS]

01:43:39   People shouldn't have to be tech savvy enough to know. [TS]

01:43:42   There's lots of good mikes you can buy at every price point but just make sure like in the old news just make sure you. [TS]

01:43:47   You get more RAM. [TS]

01:43:48   Because our really affect your experience [TS]

01:43:49   and now it's just make sure that you would the very least get the fusion drive which won't be as good as honest as the [TS]

01:43:54   middle of the world is better than like the slowest hard drive. Made in the last decade. [TS]

01:43:59   The putting inside these things. [TS]

01:44:01   And this is also going to have a strategy tax for them in the sense that like like you know we've heard rumblings here [TS]

01:44:07   and there that they're working on possibly a new file system. And that such file system would be based on. S S D's. [TS]

01:44:15   That it would only run an S.S.D. Is because they don't like. If you couldn't.. [TS]

01:44:18   If you know that all of the computers that a file system will run on will have an S.S.D. [TS]

01:44:23   You can make certain assumptions you can design a certain way to take advantage of the properties of S.S.D. [TS]

01:44:27   As the longer they keep selling computers with spinning platter hard drives. [TS]

01:44:31   The longer they either can't ship that or have to restrict it to only certain models their computers [TS]

01:44:36   and therefore only a subset of their users get whatever benefits it brings you know that [TS]

01:44:41   and there's you know the same thing with with the i Phone Line up like having shipping those a five ships for so long [TS]

01:44:47   that you know that that holds back developers including Apple developing its own platform. Stuff like that so this is. [TS]

01:44:53   It's that kind of move. [TS]

01:44:54   Where the nickel [TS]

01:44:56   and dime ing of the of the low end of the supply chain is actually going to impede the progress of Apple software teams [TS]

01:45:03   and to impede the progress that all of us can make in this offer moving forward and I even wonder at this. [TS]

01:45:08   When we had the like oh they're trying to save money by giving a few drive is a fifty four hundred rpm to buy five inch [TS]

01:45:13   are actually cheaper than than the equivalent flash at the volumes of a bias Flash is a supply issue that they want to [TS]

01:45:20   save that flash for the other more profitable computers is just it's really getting to be the situation where I get a [TS]

01:45:25   certain point it will be like antique and retro like who is still buying spinning. Hard drives like every. [TS]

01:45:32   You would think that the first company to go as is the everywhere would be Apple. [TS]

01:45:35   But you know they're dragging their feet. You know there's. They're just holding on to the past. [TS]

01:45:41   That isn't how Apple works anymore. You know with Steve Steve did a few moves like that where he would like you know. [TS]

01:45:46   Cut off this old to crazy thing we're only doing the U.S.B. Everywhere on the I'm a great Right yeah. [TS]

01:45:52   You know like Steve Steve did with him is that sometimes [TS]

01:45:54   but I try to keep some perspective in you know thinking maybe this is just a crazy part of him cooks Apple. [TS]

01:45:59   The fact is when Steve Jobs was running the place. [TS]

01:46:02   They also had like very stingy low and he figure ations on a lot of their computers and you know [TS]

01:46:07   but you're you know you're right to things like RAM. But I feel like with Tim it's been made worse. Like so. [TS]

01:46:12   Neither was perfect in this regard. And maybe Steve put it in the same thing given the same situations. [TS]

01:46:18   But it does seem like they are off on this with a balance that that. [TS]

01:46:22   That it needs to be struck between between like you know the low and the they offer [TS]

01:46:27   and making a healthy profit on the high end stuff. [TS]

01:46:29   I feel like they're off on that and the sixteen gig phone is one of these examples. And the. [TS]

01:46:35   You know a lot of the like based figuration this on the computer but this is like the. [TS]

01:46:39   The great example I've seen recently of like here is a new By all accounts. [TS]

01:46:43   You know the non retina one is a low end product OK. The retina four K. Is a mid-range product. [TS]

01:46:49   You know maybe even a high end. I mean to most of the world. A fifteen hundred dollar computer is high end. You know. [TS]

01:46:57   Let's put this into perspective here. This is a high end product. For most people standard. [TS]

01:47:02   And it looks high and like I like all that a spice that credit looks like fancy computer it does not look. [TS]

01:47:08   Like a bargain bin like just slap together thing it looks like you're buying something expensive and [TS]

01:47:13   when you get I feel like the experience of using it is so far out of whack with everything that you that you have you [TS]

01:47:18   in touch on the computer. Yeah. So it's. You have this product and. And you know. [TS]

01:47:23   Apple's brand is supposed to be about premium quality and about making great. Or at least good products and. [TS]

01:47:31   There is no way. A computer sold in two thousand and fifteen with a fifty four hundred R.P.M. [TS]

01:47:36   Hard drive is even a good product will learn a great one. And so again. Customer set. Could be a problem here. [TS]

01:47:43   Like I just I don't see how that. You know obviously I guarantee you. Just like sixteen gig phones. [TS]

01:47:51   This is not about profit margins on that model. This is about creating up cells to the next model. [TS]

01:47:58   To raise average selling price does that work for help self people don't know. [TS]

01:48:01   So like I don't even know of [TS]

01:48:02   or because an up sell because that would mean that EVERY some to pray PL involved in the sales process would have to be [TS]

01:48:07   aware of the huge performance cliffs represented by that fifty four hundred rpm drive it is super esoteric were people [TS]

01:48:14   running under no just insulted storage and just let alone the R.P.M. Of the disk nobody knows those numbers. [TS]

01:48:19   So let's let the sales people are saying by the way you don't know this [TS]

01:48:24   but this number here means this computer is crap. [TS]

01:48:26   And you should buy the other one [TS]

01:48:27   but that's not a sales tactic that I've ever seen used in an Apple store that kind of like. [TS]

01:48:31   Let me tell you why this machine is crap you should buy the other one Apple's mostly in my experience been like. [TS]

01:48:35   These are all great products pick pick whichever one you want to you have questions I can answer them. Like so I don't. [TS]

01:48:40   The sixteen gig model I feel like even people don't know what a gigabyte is that. [TS]

01:48:44   I think people used to buying smartphones with an single number associated with them. [TS]

01:48:48   Especially Apple phones and that number is like the amount of stuff that the phone holds. [TS]

01:48:53   And so I think there's more of an argument for being used to not sell there. But I computers. R.P.M. [TS]

01:48:58   Of the spinning disk. I don't know. [TS]

01:49:00   Yeah I completely agree and it wasn't until I remember which machine it was [TS]

01:49:04   but it wasn't until I finally started using an S.S.D. Myself. Years ago. Now. [TS]

01:49:09   Maybe it was than my previous work computer before it just got upgraded. [TS]

01:49:13   But anyway it wasn't until I had one myself that I realized oh my God what everyone is saying it's. It's not true. [TS]

01:49:20   It's even better than what he said because I just had never experienced it before [TS]

01:49:25   and it's it minutely I should have listened to all these people like you and Marco that were saying oh my god S.D.S. [TS]

01:49:30   The only way to go. But until you really use a computer. That is your own. That has an S.S.D. [TS]

01:49:37   You don't understand the difference it makes and so I can absolutely imagine me. Back then not having used an S.S.D. [TS]

01:49:45   Thinking it's just it's not worth it is not that big a deal. [TS]

01:49:49   And so I feel like some amount of forced guidance [TS]

01:49:54   or you know compelling people to get this better machine is what it's going to take in order to move them away from the [TS]

01:50:03   splatter drives and you the way you do that is you don't off the platter drive in the first place. Well. [TS]

01:50:07   But the customer set won't be affected if the people who buy this computer have never had an S.S.D. [TS]

01:50:11   Because maybe that is think is how slow computers are like if they never had the faster experience on a mac. [TS]

01:50:16   And it by this one. [TS]

01:50:17   It's probably about the same speed as their previous maccaroni faster than everybody's mag with a spinning disk. [TS]

01:50:22   So those people their customers that we find about this new computer. It's fancy the screen looks really nice. [TS]

01:50:27   It's better than L computer in a bunch of different ways. And it's faster. So they don't know what they're missing. [TS]

01:50:33   Right so maybe their customers that will be protected I just feel like Apple is not giving the best possible experience [TS]

01:50:39   they could be giving to their customers right will the customer set will be good it won't be great. [TS]

01:50:44   And we all like to think that Apple aims for great. [TS]

01:50:48   What they should if they want to actually offer the best product they could at this price point. [TS]

01:50:54   They would have thrown in that stupid twenty four gigs and made it a fusion drive. [TS]

01:50:58   For what I can best estimate a total cost of maybe twenty bucks to them. [TS]

01:51:03   Just ahead just at twenty bucks of the price of the points like. [TS]

01:51:06   You know take zero profit margin on the twenty four gigs of last but add twenty bucks of the press. [TS]

01:51:11   Right but instead they charge one hundred dollars for that option. If you want to terabytes. [TS]

01:51:17   That's three hundred dollars now a two terabyte two and a half inch drive at retail is about one hundred bucks. [TS]

01:51:24   So they're charging three hundred for some of the going to cost about one hundred plus the twenty four M. [TS]

01:51:29   You know it's and they've they've always done stuff like this like overcharging for some of the options but. [TS]

01:51:35   I don't know I felt like a few years ago they start to get better at like the ramp start to become a lot less [TS]

01:51:39   outrageous and stuff. [TS]

01:51:41   Yes storage is the new RAM used to be that RAM was the thing that Apple overcharge ridiculous amount for [TS]

01:51:46   and then they got a reasonable RAM prices but now it's like storage prices have no relation to reality. [TS]

01:51:52   As usual the options are not priced well but it's. [TS]

01:51:55   But I don't mind that like I feel like a to get to move on to for off of the low and thing. [TS]

01:51:59   Like I'm thinking of getting one of the is to replace my wife's thunderbolt display [TS]

01:52:04   and Max what they're set out to replace your macro. You know. So I'm so whole if you can dream alive. Twenty sixteen. [TS]

01:52:11   Macro thunderbolt three X. On Retina Display could conceivably happen anyway. [TS]

01:52:16   Excited aside for now though the big one looks good and I'm you know again. [TS]

01:52:21   I'll pay whatever you know check the stupid. [TS]

01:52:23   Seven hundred dollars one terabyte flash like Al I understand since it's expensive products to the high end you're [TS]

01:52:30   paying through the nose of the premier stuff but it looks and acts like a premium product I have faith that there. [TS]

01:52:34   That there are one terabyte last drive. Will be fast. [TS]

01:52:37   I have faith that the screen will look really good because Mark you said you really like your screen this one is [TS]

01:52:43   supposedly even better. Yet it they did a light color gamut that's one thing I really do. [TS]

01:52:48   Kind of regret not having I mean I know how you can fix that. You know I'm not going to do if you are. [TS]

01:52:54   I'm really not all right this now. Marco has one of these. [TS]

01:53:03   Well to my just need one for toggery but I'm getting a lot of my as well anyway. Yeah. [TS]

01:53:09   But yes so this does look like a really nice computer. It's kind of disappointing that it alone have the U.S.B. C. [TS]

01:53:15   and In my open questions other post on Twitter are. What's the deal with the G.P.U. [TS]

01:53:20   It does it still like thermal throttled inside there because what. I'm not deciding that brother. [TS]

01:53:25   Really whether we should get one or not it's basically. [TS]

01:53:28   Should I bother getting the high end one [TS]

01:53:29   or is it pointless because the high end one is going to make more noise than Mark heat without any.. [TS]

01:53:35   Real big boost in performance or should I get the lowest end G.P.U. [TS]

01:53:38   I just resign myself to the fact that this is never going to be remotely good for gaming. [TS]

01:53:43   And just get the one that makes the late least amount of noise so I'm waiting for some people to buy this [TS]

01:53:48   and tear it apart or tested and do all the know I want to see gaming benchmarks I want to see noise levels. [TS]

01:53:53   Stuff like that and I want to wait for the first bunch of suckers to get the first ones off the assembly line. [TS]

01:53:57   And then eventually probably a lot of one of those. Yeah I mean it's and I will say mean. [TS]

01:54:02   Yeah like the gamut display is. That's a great improvement. That's the kind of improvement that like. [TS]

01:54:09   They didn't need to do the market was really not demanding it is an event quantity [TS]

01:54:12   but I'm really glad they did do it because long term that is better for everybody if that filters through the lineup so [TS]

01:54:17   that is great. [TS]

01:54:18   I'm very happy again that they want right now I'm very happy that the big one finally got Sky like although it didn't [TS]

01:54:24   it doesn't have like the cool U.S.B. Three thunderbolt thing. He has B.C. It doesn't have that. [TS]

01:54:30   So that's unfortunate but we'll get there in the spring who knows. [TS]

01:54:34   And also the prices little bit lower when you when you decade out with the options. Previously. If you if you. [TS]

01:54:40   Maxed out all the options it was forty four hundred dollars. [TS]

01:54:44   Now Max I was forty one hundred dollars So somewhere there. The options are getting a little cheaper... [TS]

01:54:48   So overall decent machine. If I was buying a new mac today. I would get a well configured five K. Twenty seven X. [TS]

01:54:57   Of course. Again. I've been using mine now for a year and. Absolutely love it. [TS]

01:55:03   And the fact that I'm not really itching to find an excuse to upgrade to tell you you know one. [TS]

01:55:09   And one way how good this thing is it is incredible. And this. [TS]

01:55:13   I mean the screen on mine is the best screen I have ever seen. And they made the new ones even better. [TS]

01:55:20   So I'm I'm very very happy about this. I'm happy to keep pushing the line forward the high end is great. [TS]

01:55:26   The low end is a shame. Yeah. And I don't mind like those missing S.P.C. [TS]

01:55:31   Like it's kind of a shame but like you recognize [TS]

01:55:33   when you're buying remember if you're buying a mac now you realize you're buying in the middle of Apple transitioning [TS]

01:55:38   it's lying to us P.C. Going to be a while read it as a new judge it could be a really long while. [TS]

01:55:44   So just like what are you going to do. I'm going to wait for the next time act that as your S.B.C. [TS]

01:55:48   Well then you're not going to get her six month period or so. No I'm going to be OK with that. [TS]

01:55:55   Mostly because whatever like that I don't. I don't see any big need for us B.C. [TS]

01:56:00   For the thing that's replacing was ancient MacBook Air will still be here job good. Yeah. [TS]

01:56:06   So the mouse and keyboard next I guess we can quickly have those. I am happy that. So OK let me hear something nice. [TS]

01:56:16   I'm happy that they're doing stuff like this like I'm happy that the mac. [TS]

01:56:21   And in particular the desktop Macs are still important enough for Apple to put significant work into. [TS]

01:56:27   Because not only are they obviously mostly i OS device company these days. But also among the mac line. [TS]

01:56:34   The laptops tend to get the most attention because they sell most of that up to mean I heard I think Jason celebrated [TS]

01:56:39   said that they sell. [TS]

01:56:40   Seventy five percent of the computers a sellout tops [TS]

01:56:43   and the desktop isn't even all IMAX it's going to be some macro some neck minis. So you know. [TS]

01:56:48   The fact they're putting effort into things like making. [TS]

01:56:51   Also new i Macs but also things like new keyboard or mouse designs in the previous ones worked fine. You know. [TS]

01:56:57   Even though I don't like the direction it took with the keyboard yet I mean I haven't tried one yet. [TS]

01:57:02   From what I've very not book one like. [TS]

01:57:05   So you know I'm not grown not crazy about that [TS]

01:57:08   but I would use it in a way because it isn't a split natural key word I always use the split. [TS]

01:57:12   Ergo keyboard so it doesn't matter for me. [TS]

01:57:15   So I guess I like that they're still doing as I feel like maybe this is Phil Schiller. [TS]

01:57:19   Like I feel like of all the top exact I think he seems to like the mac the most you know like. [TS]

01:57:24   He seems to be like kind of his baby in that way like he always. [TS]

01:57:28   He seems to care a lot about the mac things he always gives more public statements about the max than anyone [TS]

01:57:34   and other exact like maybe maybe it's just his job to present them I don't know but it does seem like he cares a lot [TS]

01:57:39   and that's comforting to know that like he's so high up and seems to really care about the mac. [TS]

01:57:43   So I'm just I'm happy that the mac. [TS]

01:57:46   And in particular desktop Macs are getting meaningful updates and meaningful attention even. [TS]

01:57:52   Even when I don't always agree with the direction they're going on at least happy they're getting updates. [TS]

01:57:57   Yeah I agree I was. [TS]

01:57:59   Said to see that the Magic Mouse didn't seem to get it it doesn't aesthetically look that different I know it's taller [TS]

01:58:07   or excuse me not taller but I guess longer is a better way of phrasing it [TS]

01:58:11   and happy to see the batteries go away I am one of the suckers that bought the Apple battery charger because I hated [TS]

01:58:16   certainly doubles. Double Ezola time. Not even I thought that you know. Other battery charges exist. They do. [TS]

01:58:23   Yeah there are and they're better. Yeah. Well it was a gift. So. Yeah. [TS]

01:58:27   I had a friend who claimed his hands and CD was give the middle school. [TS]

01:58:32   I mean I believe it was a gift I probably would have bought it anyway because the only thing I ever use a for is my [TS]

01:58:37   Magic Mouse but anyway. The point is I still I still think that are going on McLean this has a way a way to go. [TS]

01:58:44   I wish it was more bold this. But you know you can't win em all. [TS]

01:58:48   But I like that that it's got rechargeable batteries I like that it's charging via lightning I think that's smart. [TS]

01:58:55   I think any excuse as many have said to get a lightning cable in the house. [TS]

01:58:59   You can never have enough we probably have twenty or thirty at this now maybe not that many believe a ton. [TS]

01:59:03   And there's still not enough. [TS]

01:59:06   But I don't know I would be neat if they did something a little different with it I'm not sure what maybe maybe somehow [TS]

01:59:13   some way supporting force touch. I don't know enough about how this is all held together in a hardware perspective. [TS]

01:59:19   Maybe that's a ridiculously complicated and stupid idea [TS]

01:59:22   but I would have liked something more than just a slight Rev like even the keyboards. [TS]

01:59:28   That wasn't revolutionary what they did but it was more than just a basic Rev. [TS]

01:59:34   And I'm sad that the Magic Mouse only got the basic Ravin. And I fear that my mouse using days are running out. [TS]

01:59:42   And eventually due to force touch. [TS]

01:59:45   I'm going to have to get a track pad and I know that a lot of people are completely in love with their Magic Trackpad. [TS]

01:59:52   I personally don't care for trackpads unless I have to I will use the one on my mac you know the. [TS]

01:59:58   Board one if I am in a pinch and it's not reasonable for me to set up a mouse but I prefer a mouse. If at all possible. [TS]

02:00:07   And I prefer a Multi Touch mouse specifically. The other thing I really do like is the pairing by way of the U.S.B. [TS]

02:00:14   Connection I think that's extremely smart. It's another one of those really great Apple moves words like oh yeah. [TS]

02:00:20   If you give a plug it in anyway why the crap wouldn't you do that [TS]

02:00:23   but I don't know if I would have thought of it you know if I was designing all this. [TS]

02:00:27   So I'll I'm kind of excited about the new keyboard in the new mouse. More the keyboard than the mouse I suspect. [TS]

02:00:35   Because I have one of the old old old Bluetooth keyboard takes three batteries which is completely barbaric obviously. [TS]

02:00:43   So I'd love to see I'd love to get my hands on a keyboard and mouse but cheese they're expensive. [TS]

02:00:48   How much they well they come with your computer if you buy a new computer right where they come with your new desktop [TS]

02:00:54   computer. But don't typically by desktop computers as we've talked about. [TS]

02:00:59   Yet when it comes to the different keyboard is a hundred bucks trackpad A hundred thirty. Mouse is a standalone. [TS]

02:01:04   Do you have a choice of a real keyboard. Let's see. Yeah you do. Still Apple keyboard with an American pad. [TS]

02:01:11   You can pick the extended one still I mean that's why I'm not interested in his keeper I like well like the keyboard [TS]

02:01:16   like the mouse. Seems to and the track bed for that matter. [TS]

02:01:21   It's every Fineman of what Apple seems to think is the bill tonic ideal of these devices so here it is a bunch of the [TS]

02:01:27   mouse that make more of an evolution. Apple has decided for the next several years. The D.M. Piece of sushi is the man. [TS]

02:01:35   And all the doing is refining it an Apple and Apple has decided for the next several years of this aluminum. Keyboard. [TS]

02:01:40   That's the way keyboard should look and they're just refining it [TS]

02:01:43   and how can they refine it barely can we can we pull the ad is even more who make keys little bigger clear make them [TS]

02:01:48   more stable maybe will tweak the layout but bottom line is they wanted to just disappear. [TS]

02:01:53   They wanted to be very simple it's beautiful to look at but I don't like the key layout I need. [TS]

02:01:58   I want my inverted Pierre agave I want page up page noun home and where I want them. [TS]

02:02:02   I was like a space between the numbers and the function keys. But that would make the keyboard bigger. [TS]

02:02:08   Even though it would be easier to feel your way to difference being the numbers in the functions. I would like control. [TS]

02:02:13   To be or not control whatever. But I would like to key in the lower left corner. To not be F.N. Not P.D.F. and Katie. [TS]

02:02:19   Right because that's where control is by default if you don't swap it with caps lock. [TS]

02:02:24   These are all things you can do on a full size real keyboard that you can't do on Apple's super aggressively. [TS]

02:02:30   Minified keyboard but this is the I guess this is the but I mean. I feel like the desk. Real estate. [TS]

02:02:36   It's good to conserve. Desk real estate. But one of the luxuries of a desktop computer is. [TS]

02:02:42   You don't have to fit it on an error. Airline tray table. [TS]

02:02:45   Like you can make the border little bigger you can give it a little bit of breathing room [TS]

02:02:48   but a kill you put some space between the function keys in the number keys [TS]

02:02:51   or is that extra five millimeters going to impinge on the giant desk where you have your gigantic IMAX. [TS]

02:02:57   I don't know any way. This is. I disagree with their design direction for their keyboards. [TS]

02:03:01   Especially since they don't seem to even offer. Like an extended version. [TS]

02:03:05   Except for the old one I'm assuming [TS]

02:03:07   when you pick that extended version you get the album sitting in front of right now which I like but I would like. [TS]

02:03:11   I would like the new key mechanism. [TS]

02:03:13   I don't like the new larger key caps you know I would like San Francisco font on my caps. [TS]

02:03:17   And by the way with others I think this is on that rental site. [TS]

02:03:21   The mac book one keyboard has half a mil meter if you travel. [TS]

02:03:25   The old aluminum keyboard that I'm sitting in front of now at the old desk top ones have two point one millimeters key [TS]

02:03:31   travel. [TS]

02:03:31   And the new one has one millimeter So it's right in the middle it's a point five two [TS]

02:03:35   and one millimeter So it's not going to feel like the MacBook one [TS]

02:03:38   but it's also have the depth of the old keyboard sought to try that to see how I like it again. [TS]

02:03:44   Not going to be a good thing anyway. [TS]

02:03:46   The consensus so far from reviewers seems to be that it feels more like the mac book one keyboard. [TS]

02:03:52   Than like the old one [TS]

02:03:53   and it might be because of the stability of the keys a little bit to that it's not as much tilting involved [TS]

02:03:58   and also the reduced travel on the magic track [TS]

02:04:01   but I think is the only one of these accessory very visions that I think is a clean win all around because the Magic [TS]

02:04:07   Trackpad. There's not much to it except a place where you slide your fingers around. [TS]

02:04:11   So that and they made the place bigger. [TS]

02:04:14   Which is what I was hoping for in terms of you know you have all the space in your desktop why make a better. [TS]

02:04:19   It's also it seems to be more proportioned like the screen. But just kind of nicer in terms of. [TS]

02:04:25   Not that at the one to one mapping but anyway if you're going to make it. [TS]

02:04:28   If you have to decide what shape the track bed should be making it the shape of the screens that you sell as a good [TS]

02:04:32   idea. [TS]

02:04:34   And it's white which I like I'm assuming it won't get all disgusting with your fingers because I'm assuming it's glass [TS]

02:04:39   up there and everything. [TS]

02:04:40   It doesn't have a little feet which are super clever but obviously don't work in this forest touch age so. [TS]

02:04:46   I actually do have a magic trick that I have to use it for Bob I use Money Bay for a tenner view so I have some of the [TS]

02:04:51   gestures on. And so I don't have I guess one hundred thirty bucks and not buying one of these on a whim. [TS]

02:04:56   That's super expensive but that is my favorite and no excess Riyad of the group by far. And then finally the. [TS]

02:05:03   The fact the lightning. Charging port on the mouse is on the bottom. When I don't. [TS]

02:05:09   I saw a couple people trying to think of reasons for this. [TS]

02:05:13   Like don't hurt yourself it's because if you put it someplace else will be ugly. Like that's it. [TS]

02:05:17   Yeah oh yeah that's totally done and done. And I don't also the. Like it's a big deal because the thing. [TS]

02:05:24   The charge last so long and you charter so infrequently. [TS]

02:05:27   It is a little bit awkward it's a kind of one of those at the same of the compromises that Apple has made in the past [TS]

02:05:31   it fits right in with the. [TS]

02:05:33   Let's put the ports on the back of the IMAX so they're not in your face but now it's harder to kind of get at them or. [TS]

02:05:38   The you know. The things that make your product look good but as soon as you go and try to use it. [TS]

02:05:44   Part of part of the functionality infrequent part like you're not plugging and pulling things all the time but [TS]

02:05:48   when you do do it it becomes awkward so this mouse. [TS]

02:05:50   Looks good all the time when you do have to plug in I guess you leave it on its back like a turtle. At night. [TS]

02:05:57   You know and than just lays there on the back and you won't flip it over. [TS]

02:06:02   Why aren't you helping it over Casey Anyway I'm flooding the quote you're not going get there aren't any way to the [TS]

02:06:06   throne. But that's going to look weird. [TS]

02:06:09   It's going to look weird to have your thing charging overnight with the wire sticking out of it an awkward angle a look [TS]

02:06:15   weirder than it would if the thing plugged in where the cord is on a regular old style corded mouse. [TS]

02:06:21   Because then it would just sit on your desk the cord with their you unplugged every fine [TS]

02:06:24   but the whole rest of the time using the mouse. Johnny I would be restless. [TS]

02:06:27   At night knowing that this is gaping lighting port poking out of his beautiful piece of sushi somewhere that people can [TS]

02:06:32   see right and it would be if they did it right [TS]

02:06:35   and put it on the front edge where every other mouse has scored coming in you wouldn't even see it in using [TS]

02:06:40   when it would be facing away from you would be facing the wall. [TS]

02:06:43   People walking towards you and your desk here beautiful glass at the reception area. [TS]

02:06:47   They would see the lighting porthole and it would. So with Linda I don't know but yes. [TS]

02:06:54   You don't I don't think you need to think hard about it. That's why it's on the bottom. [TS]

02:06:57   Because it's less likely that way. And I and in the end. I think that is a reasonable. [TS]

02:07:01   I think it's a more reasonable compromise than putting everything apart on the back of the eye Mikel to put it that way. [TS]

02:07:06   Yeah well [TS]

02:07:07   and you know if you're going for maximum functionality you're probably not using this mouse to begin with mean I like [TS]

02:07:12   it [TS]

02:07:12   but no one else seems to Casey is using it for next election I guess is the only swipe the mouse that's the only like high [TS]

02:07:18   quality multi gesture multi finger gesture mouse so that's the functionality the reason he's using this thing. [TS]

02:07:23   Well that's mostly true. That is why I'm using it but I'm told that. Mike's beloved M.X. Whatever mouse. [TS]

02:07:31   That is giving him tremendous R.S.I. Issues that. [TS]

02:07:35   I guess has physical buttons you can press that will mimic a lot of last us years that I give you. [TS]

02:07:41   But that to me that seems kind of a hack in kind of blue jean and I'm not that interested in it. But. [TS]

02:07:47   Strictly speaking I could accomplish the things I want to accomplish with other mice with more buttons buttons are [TS]

02:07:54   always an answer on. [TS]