00:00:00 ◼ ► Are you trying to do like a vision pro layout or what just just don't worry about it. I needed John to be here
00:00:05 ◼ ► I waited longer than normal expecting captain late to be here and I'm wrong. Oh my god. It's you
00:00:10 ◼ ► Wait, what is behind me? I don't even know what that background is. Maybe does zoom at that or does Apple add that?
00:00:18 ◼ ► I think I think zooms doing it is that I don't even know if there's a way to change what's behind me
00:00:25 ◼ ► I am recording my real mic and I will change as soon as I have John freak out about how ridiculous I look and then
00:00:31 ◼ ► I will turn all this off and rejoin on my computer. Okay, but it was worth it for the fun of it
00:00:39 ◼ ► If you look at the trademark Casey thumbs up, I mean the problem is your smile doesn't get big enough
00:00:56 ◼ ► The thing listeners that you have to learn about trying to surprise or shock John, Syracuse
00:01:06 ◼ ► You will never get the reaction you want. We know this from being friends with John for what 13 years or whatever. It's
00:01:16 ◼ ► But whatever reaction you want to get out of John who will not receive it like I believe you got
00:01:25 ◼ ► As I said, I've seen a lot of personas now, but we hadn't seen Casey's for some other anyway
00:01:43 ◼ ► We have some follow-up apparently John does not know how to do calculations, I presume mental calculations or perhaps arithmetic beforehand
00:01:51 ◼ ► But one way or another you screwed up your PPD. So tell me what PPD is and how'd you screw it up, sir?
00:02:05 ◼ ► Last episode show notes and had a bunch of sliders and text fields and apparently I messed up one of the sliders or text fields
00:02:37 ◼ ► The vision Pro is 34 PPD, which is pretty good for a headset and the iPad that I watch my TV shows on
00:02:43 ◼ ► It's only 28 and that's less than the vision Pro turns out about so much turns out vision Pro 34 ish
00:02:53 ◼ ► Pro display XDR 2 feet 100. So it's making me feel a little bit better about my future OLED iPad Pro purchase
00:03:04 ◼ ► This was something that occurred to me after recording last week's episode. We were talking about
00:03:09 ◼ ► the field of view the vision Pro and how it compares to the headsets and so on and also Marco mentioned like
00:03:17 ◼ ► When sometimes when he was looking at targets to like the left and right side of the field of view
00:03:37 ◼ ► It's compounded by the fact that when you do a Marco was describing which is like keep your head still
00:03:42 ◼ ► But turn your eyes to like, you know in the vision Pro targets a button that's in the upper left corner of your field of view
00:04:05 ◼ ► You move your eyes to the left to see something in the upper left corner of your monitor without moving your head
00:04:10 ◼ ► Guess what your field of view moves with your eyeballs, but that does not happen in the vision frozen vision pro
00:04:18 ◼ ► So you see I'm saying when you shift your eyes to the left your whole field of view is always centered on where your eyes
00:04:23 ◼ ► are pointed but when you shift your eyes to left in vision Pro the field of view does not move with your eyeballs because if you're
00:04:30 ◼ ► Not moving your head the screens are in the same place and you know, that's obvious if you think about it
00:04:39 ◼ ► Feel more narrow because as you shift your eyes the fields of view doesn't shift with them
00:04:48 ◼ ► What are they gonna do have little motorized the screens that travel around to be very difficult to do that?
00:04:51 ◼ ► But it does make the fields of you feel even narrower and it is also why a lot of people who have used vision Pro
00:04:58 ◼ ► Get into the habit of or suggested other people get into the habit of moving their head more both to avoid Marco's issue
00:05:05 ◼ ► which is like, you know the eye tracking seems like it's the best kind of run the middle ish of the screen and
00:05:09 ◼ ► Also because if you do want to for example take in a window that you have floating to your left
00:05:19 ◼ ► it would in real life because the center of your field of view would shift but in vision Pro you actually have to turn your
00:05:24 ◼ ► Head to move the little screen so they know to change what they're displaying, you know, that's a good point
00:05:29 ◼ ► And I also wanted to bring up I was talking to somebody about this and I think I know who it is
00:05:34 ◼ ► But I was talking something about this in I believe it was that last episode that you seemed very
00:05:44 ◼ ► But I think particularly laterally in order to you know, use my fantasy which is actually kind of reality
00:05:49 ◼ ► Magical world where you've got like panels of windows all around you and you seemed and don't let me put words in your mouth if I miss
00:05:58 ◼ ► I apologize but it seemed like John you were very perturbed about the idea of moving your head a lot and I was thinking about this
00:06:03 ◼ ► And talking to somebody that we know do you not move your head when you're looking at that?
00:06:12 ◼ ► Cuz I've got three 5k displays here because I'm a weirdo and and because Marco sent me one
00:06:20 ◼ ► Constantly like all the time granted not up and down and in but it's it's only laterally, but I am always moving my head
00:06:31 ◼ ► Considerably less like I'm definitely a one monitor in front of me kind of person because if I if I feel like oh I have
00:06:37 ◼ ► Which I guess is there's some like a minimum amount of head movement that makes me feel like that
00:06:44 ◼ ► Obviously the bigger the monitor gets it's not all in front of you and the part of your vision that is in focus is very
00:06:49 ◼ ► Small anyway, but I can flick my eyes over to various I can I could I feel like I can take in my whole XDR
00:07:08 ◼ ► We're just like do I make it so the seam between the two monitors is directly in front of me or do I put one?
00:07:13 ◼ ► Monitor directly in front of me and then one monitor to the side and if you have a big monitor in front of you that monitor
00:07:21 ◼ ► Especially if you want to see like the upper left corner of the monitor that is to the left of the large monitor
00:07:26 ◼ ► That's directly in front of you. You're turning your head a lot and you'll feel it. So I prefer obviously the one big monitor
00:07:32 ◼ ► I don't know what the limit is. It's not it's not 32 inch. All right, I'll tell you when I get to it
00:07:40 ◼ ► That would be past the limit and I'd be turned in my head just to look at the Apple menu
00:07:43 ◼ ► But so far from anything that Apple has shipped that I've used with my computer 32 inch fits within my field of view
00:07:49 ◼ ► Also, like, you know when when people are trying to compare the vision Pro and you know
00:07:57 ◼ ► regular computer screens like this or how you might be able to use it as a virtual computer screen
00:08:05 ◼ ► Like what John was saying a minute ago about the PPD the density of a good computer monitor is just way higher
00:08:11 ◼ ► And it's way sharper than the virtualized windows that you create within the vision Pro environment
00:08:28 ◼ ► You can pull the windows virtually closer to you in vision Pro and you can shrink them down
00:08:34 ◼ ► But the resolution is just not there the displays and the vision Pro are not yet high resolution enough to be able to
00:08:41 ◼ ► simulate the same density we get from computer displays that are right there in front of us in the real world, so
00:08:50 ◼ ► If you wanted to have the resolution of the 32 inch pro display XDR be reasonably usable in the vision Pro
00:08:59 ◼ ► You would have to make the window much larger than the then the XDR actually appears in real life
00:09:09 ◼ ► You know shrinks the resolution kind of even further because there's only so many pixels on the physical displays
00:09:16 ◼ ► It's just changing the perspective or you bring it really close to you in which case it's really big
00:09:21 ◼ ► You have to turn your head more if you actually want to minimize head turning as you're using a computer display
00:09:27 ◼ ► The best way to do that is not in the vision Pro. It's by using a regular high DPI extra monitor
00:09:38 ◼ ► But another thing that that I was reflecting on after our last episode that I I don't I just don't think I agree
00:09:55 ◼ ► I think I have like 20 25 or 20 30 or something like that vision with my contacts in which is basically the only way I
00:10:02 ◼ ► So consider your source here when I say that I think the Mac virtual display is pretty darn crisp
00:10:09 ◼ ► And I think part of that may be because I can blow it up to be hilariously large if I so desire and I'm again
00:10:15 ◼ ► I'm not arguing that you know, the effective resolution isn't lower than an XDR or even a 5k machine
00:10:20 ◼ ► but I don't know I've used Mac virtual display in the vision Pro for a couple hours at a time and I
00:10:26 ◼ ► Didn't find it off-putting or frustrating at all. It was perfectly serviceable serviceable
00:10:31 ◼ ► If not an improvement in terms of my ability to get things done over my 14 inch display
00:10:42 ◼ ► But it certainly felt like an improvement in terms of my ability to get things done because I had so much more real estate than
00:10:54 ◼ ► Concisely, like I'm not trying to say you're wrong by any means, but I don't know my my experience was a little bit different
00:10:59 ◼ ► I guess it's the best I can say well, but we're actually talking about two different things
00:11:04 ◼ ► You know what you are saying is you can use it as a Mac virtual display and it works perfectly fine
00:11:14 ◼ ► Maybe like you are correct. I and I spend a little more time with it since last week's episode
00:11:20 ◼ ► I've tried different, you know head sealed shapes and foam cushion shapes and I've tried with and without the reading glasses
00:11:26 ◼ ► I even there was actually a tip somebody puts on reddit and people linked it linked us to it
00:11:33 ◼ ► like when you put it on and it has you hold on the crown and it goes and it moves the you know moves the
00:11:37 ◼ ► Things in in that screen if you tap the other button like the capture button it can scoot them manually back out
00:11:44 ◼ ► so as far as I can tell this is a single a single direction adjustment, but it does it does allow some degree of
00:11:50 ◼ ► manual IPD changes and this person on reddit had said that this made a huge difference for them and like how
00:11:57 ◼ ► Sharp and clear it was to use that ice rain stuff that so I thought of course I got to try this
00:12:00 ◼ ► I tried a little bit. I tried a lot. It didn't really make any noticeable difference for me
00:12:06 ◼ ► I have gone back to not using the Zeiss reader inserts to just using it straight like the way I had it in the lab
00:12:12 ◼ ► Sorry, I went to a lab. That's all I can say about that, but I still find the vision Pro
00:12:17 ◼ ► Sharp enough that I'm pretty sure I'm not having like eye problems by not seeing it sharper
00:12:32 ◼ ► Whether you can use it and whether it whether it has utility and whether some people can be totally fine using it for many hours
00:12:38 ◼ ► at a time that's a separate discussion my claim is that it is not as sharp as a real Mac monitor the
00:12:54 ◼ ► I also try you know people have reported if you have the developer strap which we'll get to in a second it provides
00:13:00 ◼ ► I guess a faster connection to the Mac that it's connected to and that apparently Mac screen sharing works better with the developer strap
00:13:06 ◼ ► I tried it and honestly I noticed no difference. So I don't know if that's a thing or not. I could tell no difference and
00:13:23 ◼ ► Email and web browser and stuff like that kind of productivity, but when I started editing the podcast in logic, I immediately noticed lag
00:13:30 ◼ ► Just like, you know moving the mouse around because I'm doing lots of fast mouse movements and fast keyboard and everything
00:13:37 ◼ ► So the lag was actually kind of a deal-breaker for me in addition to the fact that it's almost like you're using screen sharing
00:13:42 ◼ ► Yeah, it's also very awkward trying to like where studio sized headphones while using the vision for like that also proved to be a problem
00:14:00 ◼ ► Some of those will probably be fixed in the future or improved in the future with higher resolution screens
00:14:10 ◼ ► But this can serve as a Mac screen with some compromises and for many people that will be totally fine
00:14:20 ◼ ► I think that's the key what you the way you ended that that yeah, it isn't a direct replacement like I guess that's true
00:14:36 ◼ ► I've actually noticed more pointer lag where I think it's a little confused if I'm trying to control a vision OS window or the Mac window
00:14:41 ◼ ► I've noticed a little bit more pointer lag than I've noticed display lag, but I'm not editing, you know stuff in logic or whatever
00:14:47 ◼ ► But I think I think your point is fair that it is not better than having a dedicated monitor
00:14:52 ◼ ► But if you are ever somewhere other than your desk and you would like to have more screen real estate
00:15:10 ◼ ► To my eyes which I in general as much as I'm making fun of myself like in generally speaking in day to day
00:15:27 ◼ ► And so I think that like the fidelity is fine. The crispness is fine. I think it works reasonably well
00:15:38 ◼ ► Like I think this is this is really really good and I was debating if I wanted to bring this up
00:15:43 ◼ ► But I might as well do so. I actually did take the vision Pro to a local library. I did this on Monday morning
00:15:49 ◼ ► I booked a little like conference room sort of thing, which did have a glass wall behind me
00:15:55 ◼ ► But I booked a conference room for a couple hours, which was later like a two-person like study room
00:16:03 ◼ ► So the only thing that anyone would be able to see is like the weird head headband behind me and I did work
00:16:16 ◼ ► Then got booted from my conference room because my time was up and I needed to spend a little time in like the regular
00:16:26 ◼ ► Point but for the time that I was somewhat secluded and not completely conspicuous. I thought it was
00:16:37 ◼ ► Like what is it like 12 or 13 inch monitor that I bring with me is like a second display
00:16:41 ◼ ► It was so much better than that. So again, I'm not trying to say that anything you've said Marco was incorrect wrong or inaccurate
00:16:47 ◼ ► All I'm trying to say is for me and my uses. It's been great. It's been really really good
00:16:53 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think what you said at the beginning of that is pretty important you were talking about like, you know your eye
00:17:04 ◼ ► Not that sharp of vision. You might not see the difference and that's not an insult. Like that's just the reality
00:17:12 ◼ ► The problem if you are accustomed to sharp vision and you're accustomed to the sharpness of Mac screens
00:17:18 ◼ ► when you see the virtual screen like one of the effects I get is I almost feel like I'm getting eye strain because
00:17:29 ◼ ► they expect to be there but that isn't actually there because I'm accustomed to seeing a certain level of sharpness on
00:17:35 ◼ ► The physical Mac displays and so when I'm viewing something in vision in vision probably in the Mac screen sharing mode
00:17:42 ◼ ► My eyes think they're not focusing correctly and they try harder to focus on it similar to when I was describing last week about
00:17:48 ◼ ► like when I try to focus on stuff that's out that's in the soft depth of field areas of a 3d movie like I'm thinking I
00:18:01 ◼ ► so it's that same kind of effect when looking at the Mac screen like if you are if you have
00:18:08 ◼ ► That I think makes it more noticeable to use the Mac screen this way and to see its flaws and to potentially maybe cause some
00:18:29 ◼ ► Yeah, just to be clear for people like always saying there's lag screen sharing with the Mac like he's using a Mac program to edit
00:18:39 ◼ ► There would be conservative s lag as the app would actually be running on the vision Pro which has an m2 and it would be fine
00:18:44 ◼ ► Oh, I would expect no lag if it was native right related to what you were all saying about screens
00:18:48 ◼ ► This also is one final note on the whole field of view and everything and you were kind of both touching on it like
00:18:54 ◼ ► Even before vision Pro came out. There was lots of people speculating about like well, you know
00:19:04 ◼ ► But once you get to vision Pro imagine you could make it 100 feet tall in front of you, right?
00:19:09 ◼ ► And we heard a lot of that both before the vision Pro is in anyone's hand and now after when people have it
00:19:17 ◼ ► both of you were touching on is this sort of the edges of that but it made me think about like
00:19:29 ◼ ► Well, like how many pixels can I see because when you're doing stuff with like, you know, Mac screen sharing or something?
00:19:34 ◼ ► What it comes down to is like look, you know toolbars take up a certain number of pixels
00:19:40 ◼ ► I need to have more pixels because I don't really care if I can make something 100 feet if it's 640 by 480 pixels
00:19:47 ◼ ► Because there's just not enough information density there, but it also got me thinking about things like watching movies
00:20:04 ◼ ► Especially when thinking about things like movie screens when you're in a movie theater, let's say the screen is a hundred feet diagonal or something
00:20:10 ◼ ► They're really the screens are really big. It's a really big movie theater. It's not a dinky movie theater. It's a big movie theater
00:20:17 ◼ ► How that manifests in our viewing is one how much of your field of view does it take up and if you're in the front?
00:20:25 ◼ ► But you can't even see the whole screen without turning your head right and if you're in the back row
00:20:31 ◼ ► But field of view is not the only thing that makes a screen big if it was we could take our phones and jam them
00:20:41 ◼ ► It's taking up my home with my entire field of view because it's touching the bridge of my nose
00:20:52 ◼ ► The second thing is how far away is it from you and in the movie theater if you're watching some gigantic
00:20:58 ◼ ► IMAX screen that's hundreds of feet right hundreds of feet diagonal. It's just a massive screen. That's multiple stories tall
00:21:07 ◼ ► It's probably pretty far away because if it wasn't you wouldn't be able to see anything again
00:21:11 ◼ ► If you were sitting in the front row and you cranked your neck and you can't even see the entire
00:21:18 ◼ ► Inside vision Pro many things conspire to make it not a good match for anything that I've just described
00:21:26 ◼ ► Obviously the physical reality is their screens like less than an inch from your eyeball or whatever
00:21:37 ◼ ► The ideal movie viewing thing is like 40 degrees or whatever field of view. You're fine
00:21:41 ◼ ► You should be able to get something that has the same field of view as a as the biggest movie theater screen
00:21:49 ◼ ► So I feel like we're covered especially for a static thing like field of view pixels. We already know it's not quite adequate
00:21:55 ◼ ► To give the kind of fidelity we expect from a Mac monitor, but it's not awful either then there's distance
00:22:01 ◼ ► One of the things that makes that 100 foot screen feel like it's 100 feet is the fact that it's really far away from you
00:22:13 ◼ ► Like you have to focus the distance from the middle of the giant theater to the screen and that's never going to happen in the current
00:22:25 ◼ ► So no matter how much of your field of view you make the television screen the movie or whatever no matter how big you make
00:22:31 ◼ ► It even if you make it like I'm sitting in the front row and I can't even see the whole screen and it's just overwhelming
00:22:38 ◼ ► 1.3 meters away as far as your eyeballs are concerned because you'll be focusing 1.3 meters away to be able to see what's on
00:22:56 ◼ ► I've experimented but like can I make like this video really big to make it feel like I'm watching a big screen and I could
00:23:05 ◼ ► But it never felt like I was watching an IMAX screen and it's because the IMAX screen is not 1.3 meters from my face
00:23:11 ◼ ► so I don't know what the solution to this other than you know, obviously we talked about a
00:23:15 ◼ ► headset that has a variable focal distance or whatever, but keep this in mind when you're thinking about
00:23:21 ◼ ► What what you want out of a big screen experience when you're talking about talking about the Mac
00:23:29 ◼ ► For you when you're talking about a movie screen if you like the feeling of sitting in a giant movie theater
00:23:41 ◼ ► You can definitely get a larger screen 1.3 meters away that you comfortably can in a physical environment
00:23:46 ◼ ► Either whether that means but you're not carrying your XDR with you to the library to get the view that Casey was getting
00:23:59 ◼ ► Was this it was it was during my demo when the person was twisting the power connector to reboot the vision Pro
00:24:07 ◼ ► Apple never puts power buttons on their things because wouldn't that be more convenient to power button and then I suggested to the person
00:24:13 ◼ ► when they were twisting the little thing taking it off and like why don't you just try holding down the
00:24:17 ◼ ► The crown and the button at the same time and they told me no that's not how it works. And then as another head
00:24:23 ◼ ► head to the door a week of people sending me Mastodon messages saying you should have just told the person to hold down these two
00:24:29 ◼ ► Buttons because that will show the little shutdown slider that you see it in from iOS and let you turn down
00:24:34 ◼ ► So anyway, there is an Apple support document explaining how you can turn off the vision Pro
00:24:39 ◼ ► I think it's just called how to turn off the vision Pro and apparently you can do any of the following number one
00:24:44 ◼ ► Press and hold the top button in the digital crown and I'll show like the little shutdown slider
00:24:56 ◼ ► Finally take off a vision Pro place it on a secure surface like a table or desk then disconnect the power cable
00:25:02 ◼ ► It's amazing that they tell you the disconnecting the power cable is one of the ways you could turn it off
00:25:12 ◼ ► You know and a proper clean shut down disconnecting the power does not do that. It's just gonna power
00:25:21 ◼ ► Which is kind of interesting too because like no other iOS based device has ever had this right?
00:25:26 ◼ ► Yeah, just TV just TV OS ones all the Apple TV that like I remember when I first got the Apple TV
00:25:30 ◼ ► It's like surely there's a support document telling me how to like, you know, reboot it or shut it down
00:25:34 ◼ ► It's like just yank the cable. Although interestingly. I I understand that you grabbed this from the Apple support document
00:25:39 ◼ ► Not trying to argue with you, but to my recollection when you press and hold the capture and digital crown for a couple of seconds
00:25:46 ◼ ► Then that brings up a force quit menu. So maybe you have to mash it down for even longer
00:26:12 ◼ ► I do believe that disconnecting the power will turn it off because there will be no more electricity and those two capacitors will discharge eventually
00:26:20 ◼ ► So turning up disconnecting the power should turn the thing off every other one of these things
00:26:33 ◼ ► But bottom line is when power is still attached. I'd always what I mean, you know max have done it for ages
00:26:38 ◼ ► I always wonder if it's like I'm mostly off but I'm kind of a little bit on and occasionally I'll wake up and check for
00:26:46 ◼ ► So I give this a little bit of side-eye but alright real-time follow-up real-time follow-up
00:26:50 ◼ ► So I'm gonna press down starting now and now I got a force quit menu closing the force quit menu now
00:27:00 ◼ ► Why are we doing okay there we got slide to power off so it was an additional one to two seconds
00:27:10 ◼ ► Definitely power it down if you're gonna be not using it for a while and it's not plugged in
00:27:14 ◼ ► Because it drains own battery if you just leave it like on a countertop not plugged in it'll be dead by the next morning
00:27:26 ◼ ► The AirPods max just like the AirPods max is downloading your photos from your iPhoto library. So is your
00:27:31 ◼ ► AirPods max can't display them. It just likes to download them photo analysis D has to run
00:27:36 ◼ ► Actually do you think that's one of the things that melted my battery because I'd done this like the second day I had it
00:27:47 ◼ ► But the battery pack was not plugged into anything. And yeah, I when I got to it the next morning
00:27:54 ◼ ► Syncing your notes like it's doing all the things if you have a if you have a long, you know long-suffering Apple ID
00:28:05 ◼ ► Yeah, it's gonna eat your battery. Yeah. All right, let's talk about the developer strap this we all ordered
00:28:12 ◼ ► Was it the day of release? I believe Marco is like the day after it was sometime soon afterwards
00:28:17 ◼ ► But you could kind of tell like maybe they just didn't want people to really talk about it
00:28:27 ◼ ► But if not, like you said it was the next day one way or another so to recap. This is a
00:28:57 ◼ ► Connect to these white straps and the white straps also house the ear pods audio pods, whatever they're called. Yeah, it's the right stick
00:29:20 ◼ ► So this is the $300 strap that in the same spot that on the left hand side you plug in power to the vision Pro
00:29:26 ◼ ► It has a very similar design like a little nub in if you will and hanging off of that nub in is a USB C
00:29:34 ◼ ► receptacle so that you can plug USB C in on this and USB C in on your computer and then you can do
00:29:42 ◼ ► Things like have better screen sharing allegedly. I mostly agree with you Marco. I haven't really noticed a big difference on that
00:29:48 ◼ ► but one way or another you can have better screen sharing allegedly and you can also do much easier faster better etc development because you're
00:29:55 ◼ ► Not relying on Wi-Fi. I got one of these I ordered it immediately because I was still worried about
00:29:59 ◼ ► Inventory and things like that. It turns out that was I think for naught but nevertheless
00:30:09 ◼ ► so I didn't get a chance to play with it until this past Monday when I brought it with me to the library knowing I was
00:30:17 ◼ ► You know what? I'm gonna leave this thing sealed and it was it was actually in the shipping box at this point
00:30:21 ◼ ► I'm gonna leave it sealed and hopefully I won't need it. You know, hopefully it won't be a big deal and
00:30:25 ◼ ► I connected my vision Pro to my computer via Wi-Fi and it did the I forget exactly what it's called Marco
00:30:33 ◼ ► You probably remember but the like downloading symbols are preparing for development. Whatever it is dance. There's it zero percent at two percent
00:30:47 ◼ ► I immediately opened the developer the three hundred dollar developer strap and said the hell with this
00:30:59 ◼ ► This was a USB 2.0 device it only only thing it does is apparently a little bit of magic with screen-sharing
00:31:08 ◼ ► It lets you do, you know debugging and whatnot via the cable and apparently John that's not right. So what's going on here?
00:31:14 ◼ ► Yeah, I think this is still just people speculating but they're pulling it up in the system information app and Mac OS and you can
00:31:23 ◼ ► Before bus you can see the Apple vision Pro listed under there. Once you connect it with an actual Thunderbolt cable
00:31:31 ◼ ► this thing is Thunderbolt capable even if none of the software that we have now is taking advantage of it and
00:31:39 ◼ ► little white stick that plugs in there and you take it out and you see the widest lightning connector Apple has ever made that has
00:32:02 ◼ ► Even if it's just for more that's substantial and the fact that they have them on both sides makes me think that this developer strap
00:32:16 ◼ ► But it sure looks like that. Maybe you might get more for your money more for your $300 than USB 2.0 speeds
00:32:28 ◼ ► Yeah, can you imagine if this thing could and I mean it granted its dongle town all over again
00:32:38 ◼ ► You know the same ones that you know, you've I've gotten and many people have gotten for their iPads and for their Macs
00:32:43 ◼ ► Especially what's the name of the the app that that's really good for HDMI input on the iPad that the halide people do
00:32:50 ◼ ► I'm drawing a blank now shoot. I'll try to remember to put it in the show notes. But anyways
00:32:58 ◼ ► I don't know like a Nintendo switch or something like that. That would be neat. Is that possible? Who knows probably be an
00:33:06 ◼ ► You know handshake violation, you know, it's got a black screen. So don't worry about it. Yeah
00:33:15 ◼ ► The developer strap stuff as it is today, and I'm not I mean I am grumbly obviously about the fact that it's three
00:33:20 ◼ ► $100 but nevertheless it is very convenient and and I know I haven't done watch development
00:33:26 ◼ ► Seriously, you know, I've dabbled as we talked about many years ago, but golly I would pay
00:33:35 ◼ ► I would no question like if there were some kind of Apple watch developer strap, even if it was also
00:33:41 ◼ ► $100 or more I would buy it in a second because even though the Wi-Fi debugging to the Apple watch has gotten way less
00:33:51 ◼ ► Compared to any kind of wired debugging like on a phone. So yeah, no question like that and that's why I bought this too
00:34:07 ◼ ► However, if you are doing like active debugging or a lot like a fast build and run cycle on the vision Pro from Xcode
00:34:14 ◼ ► It is really nice to have that be as fast as it can be and that is why I bought it because I knew I
00:34:27 ◼ ► Underscore told me it would you know build the app a little bit faster in this build and run cycle
00:34:33 ◼ ► actively debugging and actively building and running an app in like a tight loop of all right change this fix this run again like
00:34:45 ◼ ► It's very high value to try to shorten that loop and try to make make sure there's a little friction as possible
00:34:59 ◼ ► The the fact that it was not built in to the battery cable that itself has communication
00:35:14 ◼ ► The debugging cycle is just that much better and it makes that much of a difference in my life
00:35:18 ◼ ► Yeah, I really wish that you could optionally and I and I get why Apple doesn't do this because there's 104 reasons
00:35:25 ◼ ► Why would be clunky, but I wish you could power this thing through the developer strap because somehow give me one cable, right?
00:35:41 ◼ ► But I mean the battery we just established last week that the battery puts out a voltage that is not
00:35:46 ◼ ► supported by you as any of the USB power to the respects, I believe it just it's weird because like it seems like
00:36:02 ◼ ► I mean, I'm sure they were they were using Xcode to do all the development of the vision. So that's it
00:36:17 ◼ ► Yeah, real-time follow-up the the app that you were thinking of apparently according to the chat room is Orion. Yes. That's it
00:36:25 ◼ ► And then one more thing with Marco asking about debugging on the watch like so the rumors are that there there
00:36:31 ◼ ► Is and was a thing that you connect like a little diagnostic port behind the strap for watches
00:36:36 ◼ ► Internal to Apple to do essentially wired debugging on the Apple watch and then the rumor was that future Apple watches
00:36:42 ◼ ► I don't know if that means current or still to come ones used a sort of high-frequency wireless interface
00:36:50 ◼ ► But it's kind of like a direct point-to-point wireless interface with some really high frequency
00:36:58 ◼ ► Build-and-run cycle that Marco was just complaining out for the Apple watch is better inside Apple, but that betterness
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00:38:42 ◼ ► Matt Rigby writes to us many quote-unquote 3d films including the recent Star Wars trilogy are actually 3d conversions
00:39:02 ◼ ► Otherwise known as rotoscoping then map these elements as textures onto rough 3d objects and render those objects in 3d space
00:39:09 ◼ ► Holy fart knockers. I can't believe that that's what people do to make these 3d movies. That sounds terrible, but Matt links to
00:39:26 ◼ ► the 3d movies and mark go ahead watch the Star Wars ones and the 3d wasn't done very well there and
00:39:35 ◼ ► Extreme basically saying the thing you just read Casey that's fake fake 3d because it was like well
00:39:55 ◼ ► What it is that you're getting the implication being that you would presumably want to avoid the quote-unquote fake 3d instead of them
00:40:03 ◼ ► So I talked to our friend and illustrious industrial light and magic a special effects artist Todd vaziri who has worked on many Star
00:40:18 ◼ ► 3d and in particular the whole thing about a real and fake 3d and he had an interesting take on it
00:40:26 ◼ ► Record our conversation and it was in audio instead of email so I can't quote passages from it. His take was that
00:40:33 ◼ ► Shooting quote-unquote real 3d with two cameras sitting next to each other. You're filming stuff with two cameras in 3d
00:40:43 ◼ ► Kind of a pain in the butt now, it's pain in the butt for some obvious reasons. You have two cameras
00:40:53 ◼ ► You can't get those two cameras into the same places that you get one camera into you have less flexibility there, right?
00:41:04 ◼ ► That you don't have to you know, when you're post converting you can change your mind about stuff like that
00:41:16 ◼ ► when you film with two cameras you pick that distance by putting the cameras that distance apart from each other and
00:41:22 ◼ ► It's not easy to change that after the fact whereas when you film in 2d and they do that 3d conversion
00:41:30 ◼ ► What you want that distance to be when when you do the conversion like later after the entire film is put together
00:41:38 ◼ ► you're kind of baking in that distance in every every one of your shots that you make and that's important because there's a whole bunch of
00:41:50 ◼ ► Don't change that inter axial distance massively from one shot to the next because if you're cutting between them
00:42:04 ◼ ► You don't want to bounce that back and forth in the same way that you wouldn't want to bounce back and forth lots of things
00:42:09 ◼ ► In the 2d world, so you have to be have to have a lot of planning and be careful and be precise
00:42:18 ◼ ► You have to sort of make the image from each of the cameras match up in a pleasing way when viewed in 3d which involves
00:42:25 ◼ ► unwarping the lens distortion and making it so that when you actually watch it with 3d glasses or in a headset or something that it
00:42:34 ◼ ► you'll get different lens flares in each camera because they're in different positions and
00:42:38 ◼ ► trying to reconcile two different lens flares that you're showing in 3d is weird because we're all used to seeing one lens flare because the
00:42:45 ◼ ► Lens flares actually happen inside the lens and when you're shooting with one camera you get one lens flare
00:42:55 ◼ ► But not in the other one depending on where the lights are and we're not used to seeing that so it's weird
00:43:05 ◼ ► And it makes you have to sort of do like a Hitchcock style where you have everything planned out
00:43:09 ◼ ► You know exactly what you want you should only what you need and you can't change your mind easily about a lot of stuff
00:43:14 ◼ ► Whereas post-conversion you shoot it in 2d using all the techniques and technologies that we've always had for 2d
00:43:20 ◼ ► And then later someone comes along and says now I have to figure out how to make this into 3d
00:43:39 ◼ ► So I'll make sure I don't bounce around the interaxial distance there right because you already know the film is done
00:43:43 ◼ ► It's already put together. You don't have to guess right the people who are filming it have to not guess
00:43:51 ◼ ► But if we decide to change it around it might be jarring because that shot we shot yesterday and the cameras are closer together than
00:44:10 ◼ ► And I kept saying they have all the depth information and people thought what I was saying is that somehow that there was like that
00:44:15 ◼ ► I was gonna get infinite depth information in the like in the movie itself as opposed to just a right eye and a left eye
00:44:21 ◼ ► I think what I'm saying is like when you're 3d rendering it the rendering software when it's generating the image knows the distance of all the
00:44:27 ◼ ► Pixels, so there's no reason that it would that things should look like they are 2d cutouts
00:44:35 ◼ ► But he said it's completely plausible that someone could have a CG movie and to save money or time
00:44:40 ◼ ► They would render out either the whole thing in 2d and then slice it up and add fake 3d to a CG movie or
00:44:46 ◼ ► render it out in layers and have those be composited together and part of that is again for cost and annoyance reasons if you're doing a
00:44:53 ◼ ► Computer animated movie like a Pixar movie you can do it the quote-unquote real way where you render two different perspectives
00:45:01 ◼ ► You have two virtual cameras in your virtual world and you render from two different perspectives
00:45:06 ◼ ► but when you do that you quickly find oh it turns out that now one of the cameras can see around back behind a piece of
00:45:21 ◼ ► animation of someone doing a walk thing and they go out of view and once they go out of view the walk animation stops because
00:45:28 ◼ ► But the other camera spots when their legs stop moving and they just start sliding along, right?
00:45:33 ◼ ► So you have it's harder to it's like building a set right? Oh now your sets gonna be viewed from two slightly different perspectives
00:45:45 ◼ ► Then of course two virtual cameras means twice the rendering time because you're not just rendering for one cameras
00:45:53 ◼ ► This is why tons of quote-unquote fake 3d happens in movies and it it makes sense, but it also kind of explains
00:46:06 ◼ ► someone cut out through pieces of paper the foreground the mid-ground on the background and they're sliding past each other in a way that
00:46:18 ◼ ► the Alicia Keys studio looked him instantly 3d as if I was there because the cameras were similar distance to my eyes and
00:46:24 ◼ ► That was and they were shooting a real thing that was really there and that's all there was to it
00:46:30 ◼ ► Wrote on six colors and it's a members only post that we're going to apparently steal some of so
00:46:35 ◼ ► I hope we had permission. I'm blaming John. This is these are excerpts from from Joe's summary of his own post
00:46:40 ◼ ► So I would recommend subscribe to six colors and read the entire article which is much longer, but here's Joe
00:46:45 ◼ ► He sent this through email. It's him trying to condense and summarize some of the major points a couple of important definitions off the top
00:46:51 ◼ ► Interaxial is the distance between two stereo cameras the distance between the human eyes is fixed at about 65 millimeters
00:47:08 ◼ ► Parallax they recede into the screen and when they have negative parallax they stick out of the screen
00:47:14 ◼ ► So Joe writes with that mind everything you see you see with stereoscopic media 3d stuff is going to be different because you can't just set
00:47:22 ◼ ► Up to cameras 65 millimeters apart and call it a day when I used to work on stereoscopic movies
00:47:27 ◼ ► We would define inter axial and convergence values not just per shot but per element of a shot
00:47:32 ◼ ► because where the objects really were would have been boring to look at films are about directing the
00:47:37 ◼ ► Audiences view a big part of depicting depth and directing the viewers eye in 2d requires adjusting focal distance and aperture
00:47:48 ◼ ► stereoscopic films the more something is out of focus the more it loses any detail that your brain can use to see disparity between the
00:47:54 ◼ ► Different images shown to each eye and thus positive or negative parallax extremely out of focus elements will mush themselves back toward the depth
00:48:04 ◼ ► So these these two points that we just went through here are fascinating. So the first is
00:48:09 ◼ ► Defining different like inter axial and convergence values for multiple things in the same shot
00:48:15 ◼ ► So basically it's almost as if like, okay when we shot the foreground characters the cameras were two feet apart
00:48:21 ◼ ► But then the table there's that's behind them. The cameras were six inches apart like adjusting the parallax for the individual things, which is
00:48:28 ◼ ► Obviously not how our eyes work our eyes don't suddenly move two feet apart when we look at one thing and then move back together
00:48:37 ◼ ► But what he's saying is you can't just take two cameras or rather he through the way 3ds or movies have been done
00:48:42 ◼ ► Hasn't just been to take two cameras put them human eye width apart and stick them and point them at something because that is deemed
00:48:49 ◼ ► Either not interesting or as he notes like the they're they're using those two tools the interactual distance and the convergence
00:49:01 ◼ ► Distinguishes 3d movies which I tend not to like from the Alicia Keys and shark swimming towards you thing
00:49:07 ◼ ► Those are straight up two cameras the width of your eyes. And so it feels like you're there right? Whereas a 3d movie
00:49:15 ◼ ► The hand of the artist to the director is more prominent because they are directing your eye and to direct your eye
00:49:24 ◼ ► Don't exist when you're looking at something like again multiple items in the shot using different
00:49:34 ◼ ► So you could do it in real 3d if you shot them separately and then composite of them later or if it's fake 3d
00:49:38 ◼ ► They just you know separated them differently when they were slicing the elements up and that to me looks weird
00:49:46 ◼ ► Well things that are out of focus tend to just look like tend to like your eyes can't tell the difference between them
00:49:57 ◼ ► Even if you made the interaxial distance huge and the parallax they're supposed to be way far back in the screen as soon as you
00:50:02 ◼ ► Blur them people start to perceive them as being exactly at screen level, which is not what you want
00:50:08 ◼ ► and I also kind of feel that when I watch 3d movies where it's like, okay, well, they use a shallow depth of field here and
00:50:15 ◼ ► But that blurry thing it's blurry in the film because you know, they it was out of focus when they filmed it
00:50:24 ◼ ► But it feels to me like it's right next to the foreground characters because it feels like it's at the depth of the screen
00:50:29 ◼ ► So Joe continues the 3d method used animated post converted or native stereo doesn't really make a film good or bad
00:50:40 ◼ ► But that's not universally true because post conversion can allow for a greater degree of control over the end result if it's done
00:50:47 ◼ ► Conversely native stereo and animated films are not universally more 3d because they captured full left and right eye views
00:50:53 ◼ ► Like if they just set it near to human vision pushed everything behind the screen plane and didn't dial in the depth of field to increase
00:51:00 ◼ ► What's in focus etc. So these came in independently and I don't know exactly when you had your conversation with Todd
00:51:10 ◼ ► yeah, Joe also works in the VFX industry and it really clarified for me why I don't like three movies because I
00:51:19 ◼ ► Well, but first of all the Star Wars ones and the fake 3d that always bothers me for like the paper cutout thing
00:51:26 ◼ ► But they feel like I'm there they're like being projected onto a flat screen and they're close to me and I actually asked about that
00:51:30 ◼ ► I'm like did they ever especially for the foreground characters? Do they ever make do anything to make it?
00:51:36 ◼ ► So like when they're post converting a 2d thing, the foreground characters don't look like the paper dolls, right?
00:52:01 ◼ ► Think there has to be a distinction between what looks good in a headset and what looks good on a movie screen
00:52:05 ◼ ► the reason I'm so wowed by the stuff in the headset is because I'm looking at screens two screens that are I with a part and
00:52:12 ◼ ► The video I'm looking at was shot with a camera where the two cameras were basically two I was apart
00:52:17 ◼ ► So it's straight feels like I'm in the water with the shark feels like I'm in the studio with Alicia Keys
00:52:26 ◼ ► then having the the people who made the movie decide where they want to direct your attention with some extremely unrealistic but hopefully pleasing and
00:52:33 ◼ ► Interesting and exciting 3d work and I personally really don't like that second thing, but I really like the shark fair enough
00:52:41 ◼ ► Alright, we've gotten a little bit of news with regard to the European Union's digital markets act
00:52:57 ◼ ► DMA people were wondering whether or not it classifies as a what is it a core platform service?
00:53:04 ◼ ► Which is their term of art to mean we're gonna regulate the snot out of you. And so reading from the verge
00:53:09 ◼ ► Apple's iMessage is not being designated as a quote core platform service quote under the European Union's digital markets act
00:53:20 ◼ ► The decision means the service won't be hit with tough new obligations including a requirement to offer interoperability with other messaging services
00:53:27 ◼ ► The Commission also opted against designated Microsoft's edge browser being search engine and advertising businesses as core platform
00:53:33 ◼ ► Services, although iMessage has avoided the burden of complying with rules that come with the official DMA designation
00:53:39 ◼ ► The period of regulatory scrutiny coincided with Apple announcing support for the cross-platform RCS messaging standard on iPhones
00:53:51 ◼ ► designated as core platform services under the DMA and has been working to make them interoperable with third-party services wampum
00:53:57 ◼ ► I guess like your price is like all the loser things Microsoft edge the search engine that nobody uses
00:54:02 ◼ ► iMessage, yeah, you're not even big enough to be regulated. Sorry. I'm sure Apple likes it, but it's kind of you know
00:54:09 ◼ ► Well, I mean this might have also been the result of like Apple lobbying for it in some way
00:54:20 ◼ ► Targets specific companies with specific products and services and then rationalizes it with how it how it draws the lines
00:54:28 ◼ ► yeah, like it like it targets them by picking an arbitrary number if you have more than this exact number of customers as of whatever date and
00:54:42 ◼ ► It's that they drew the lines to not include iMessage. Yeah, which I think is fair actually because it isn't
00:54:49 ◼ ► as dominant as the ones they are regulating and certainly Microsoft Edge is not dominant and neither is Bing so
00:54:54 ◼ ► Congratulations, and I'm sorry, I guess and then Riley test it has written in to us with regard to Apple's third party marketplace
00:55:11 ◼ ► So Riley has a lot of experience with what is probably the most official even though it's very very very unofficial
00:55:20 ◼ ► So Riley writes I've been pouring through the marketplace kit documentation for the past week and a half and there's some nuances
00:55:31 ◼ ► marketplaces regardless of where they live once they've agreed to the new business terms only developers building app
00:55:36 ◼ ► Marketplaces need to be based in the EU or have legal subsidiary in the EU to start using marketplaces
00:55:48 ◼ ► Once you've added a marketplace you can then choose which apps you want to distribute with it
00:55:52 ◼ ► You can distribute any of your apps to any combination of marketplaces including the App Store
00:55:57 ◼ ► Users will have to delete an app before installing the same app from another marketplace though
00:56:01 ◼ ► When you're ready to distribute your app you submit it to Apple through Xcode like normal and wait until notarization finishes once process
00:56:07 ◼ ► Developers can automatically submit notarized apps to marketplaces through Apple or they can manually download the notarized quote alternative distribution package quote
00:56:15 ◼ ► Or ADP and send it directly to the marketplace themselves. It's up to the marketplaces to choose how they want to receive their apps
00:56:20 ◼ ► that's the most interesting thing in this email because before we were saying oh everything has to go through Apple and
00:56:25 ◼ ► It does have to go through Apple, but Apple and Apple can deliver it to the third-party store
00:56:31 ◼ ► But they can also just give it back to you and say you know what you can do this last part
00:56:34 ◼ ► I don't know what that buys you other than more hassle because you do have to go through Apple
00:56:40 ◼ ► but if you wanted you can say Apple don't send it to the store send it to me and then I'll send it to the
00:56:45 ◼ ► Store and I guess the marketplace would have its own upload portal thing where they accept them
00:56:50 ◼ ► I don't know what the advantages would be but it's interesting that that flexibility does exist
00:56:54 ◼ ► Riley continues I fully agree that third-party marketplaces only really makes sense for apps that can't exist on iOS right now
00:56:59 ◼ ► But not just for the obvious content reasons for example besides the fact that my app Delta isn't allowed in the App Store because it's a
00:57:09 ◼ ► Providing pre-release access to beta versions to my patrons this business model is forbidden by the App Store despite it being a proven way to
00:57:19 ◼ ► I've actually added deep patreon integration to alt store to encourage other indie developers to monetize apps this way of which alt store takes no
00:57:30 ◼ ► now the other thing with the DMA is that you are required to have a million euro line of credit and
00:57:43 ◼ ► Yeah, we will give you up to a million euros if you ask for it like you've already pre-approved you
00:57:53 ◼ ► But Bobby Perotti writes I work in commercial finance your discussion of the DMA and the required million euro quote standby letter of credit
00:58:03 ◼ ► That's money that must be held essentially an escrow by your bank. It's not a line of credit
00:58:11 ◼ ► I think a lot of people assume it means you would be okay as long as you're approved for that amount of credit from a
00:58:15 ◼ ► bank like a home equity line but I can get a home equity line of credit never draw on it and not be
00:58:21 ◼ ► Inconvenient much at all as long as I have home equity a standby letter actually means that the bank is locking those funds up
00:58:35 ◼ ► Good way to think about a standby letter of credit is basically a check that the beneficiary Apple can cash at any time
00:58:41 ◼ ► Small cones small consortiums of indie devs which will probably have trouble getting that kind of money together
00:58:53 ◼ ► Maybe maybe either maybe Bobby's understanding is incorrect. Maybe our understanding certainly sounds like it's incorrect
00:58:59 ◼ ► He sounded pretty sure cuz I went back and forth around a lot and I asked one more clarification
00:59:04 ◼ ► Do you actually have to have that money because you can write a check and not have the money for it and only when they?
00:59:13 ◼ ► you not only do you have to have that money and pretty much all cases that he's aware of the
00:59:18 ◼ ► Institution that gives you that standby letter of credit demands that you give them the same bank
00:59:30 ◼ ► Give it to them then they will give you that standby letter of credit and they will hold that money and the money is basically
00:59:35 ◼ ► Sitting there saying if Apple ever wants to take this they can take it for whatever reasons it says in there
00:59:40 ◼ ► You know marketplace contract or whatever, right? So you can't get by saying oh, we're good for it or whatever
00:59:46 ◼ ► You've got to have that in cash and you have to give it to the institution who then gives you this
00:59:53 ◼ ► So, I don't know maybe alt star has a million euros hanging around and they're gonna sail past this but yeah
01:00:04 ◼ ► So thank you Bobby for writing in and telling us we don't clearly work in commercial finance
01:00:09 ◼ ► And this I think this basically tells you the kind of entities that we should expect to actually jump through the hoops to run
01:00:43 ◼ ► John it seemed like you had thoughts about this or you perhaps wanted to direct conversation or am I misreading you entirely you're misreading
01:00:52 ◼ ► I want to tell his story of letting other people try the vision pro and you tell your story
01:00:55 ◼ ► I didn't let any other people with credit visual pro because I was just an Apple star and it was just me fair enough
01:01:11 ◼ ► From control center to let it to let someone else put it on without your optic ID. Basically, it's fine. I
01:01:17 ◼ ► Would say if Apple wants to give the guest users a good impression of what it's like to use a vision pro
01:01:32 ◼ ► As many people pointed out if the wearer in guest mode lifts the vision pro off their face for even a split second
01:01:42 ◼ ► So even if they like lifts up like rub their eye or just the fit a little bit too much or something
01:01:52 ◼ ► Re-log in like with either optic ID or the passcode go back into guest mode and control center and turn it back on
01:02:02 ◼ ► Every time someone puts it on in guest mode. They have to go through the entire eye setup
01:02:10 ◼ ► we discussed earlier then it has them go through the whole intro of like look at the dots and pinch your fingers and then let
01:02:17 ◼ ► So it takes a while and it's and it's kind of you know, repetitive and cumbersome. So the guest mode experience is
01:02:24 ◼ ► Not something that you're gonna want to do frequently and I think it's important that if you're demoing for somebody else that you warn them
01:02:31 ◼ ► Don't take it off your face in the middle because it will reset it and have them have to start all over again
01:02:36 ◼ ► I wonder if that's related to so optic ID is like essentially it's like it's like a touch ID your face ID
01:02:47 ◼ ► And you probably know if you've done this on any kind of shared Mac, even a laptop. There's a limit to how many
01:02:52 ◼ ► Touch ID fingerprint II things you can store on a Mac and that limit I believe is determined by essentially the secure enclave and the hardware
01:03:00 ◼ ► So it doesn't matter how big your SSD is doesn't matter what version of the OS you're using whatever number of fingerprints
01:03:05 ◼ ► It is it's like seven or eight or I don't know how everybody is. That's it for the whole system, right?
01:03:13 ◼ ► My fingerprint work on both my wife's account in mine and vice versa because so we don't have to type in each other's passwords
01:03:18 ◼ ► Right, but you run out real quickly because if the kids have their own fingerprints and their accounts and you know
01:03:25 ◼ ► Saving the optic ID for guests so that if you give it to a guest and they try it and they take it off in
01:03:31 ◼ ► It doesn't like recognize them as a guest that it has seen before and boot them back into their guest mode or anything like that
01:03:38 ◼ ► So I wonder if a they're storing the optic ID in the secure enclave because it is biometric data presumably and B apparently
01:03:52 ◼ ► Guests don't get anything saved about them. So every time the vision pro sees this person
01:04:05 ◼ ► best assistive tools for if you're going to be showing someone how to use vision pro is
01:04:09 ◼ ► You can airplay what they are seeing to a nearby Mac or other screen so you can so, you know
01:04:17 ◼ ► So I will say all right mirror the screen of what they're seeing to my Mac and then I can see what they see and I
01:04:24 ◼ ► Okay, go to this section of the Apple TV app to go find the 3d videos or whatever, you know
01:04:42 ◼ ► video content that is DRM protected which is all video content basically that you would want to want to show them everything from Apple TV plus
01:04:49 ◼ ► everything from Disney like it's all DRM locked and so if it's air playing it basically
01:04:55 ◼ ► You know breaks whatever DRM requirement is that you're copying the screen and so not only can you not see it on the Mac
01:05:05 ◼ ► so they can't watch 3d video content in the demo mode if you can see what they can see and
01:05:17 ◼ ► You can't turn off the screen mirroring because they don't have access to control center in guest mode. There's no
01:05:37 ◼ ► We were air playing to the TV like the to the Apple TV, I guess I should say that that was in the living room
01:05:42 ◼ ► And when you're on an Apple TV, anyway, you can you know, hit the back or menu or what-have-you button to effectively cancel screen-sharing
01:05:57 ◼ ► But it does work pretty well with an Apple TV where you can just basically cancel the screen sharing
01:06:03 ◼ ► Oh, I should try that and I didn't think to try that. But anyway, so that's it just it shows though
01:06:16 ◼ ► Yeah, high-definition copy protection someone put a link to it earlier that's standard has all these things about like
01:06:27 ◼ ► It looks like it's on it don't siphon off the video off a side channel so you can record it secretly only it can only
01:06:31 ◼ ► Be displayed on the screen that it is handshake through through the stupid secure DRM protocol again
01:06:37 ◼ ► there was a reminder all this is to make sure no one ever is able to pirate video and we know of course this solved the
01:06:43 ◼ ► Problem of video piracy and now it is impossible to private video. Thank you copy protection. You did your job great
01:06:52 ◼ ► Pirating and B you're gonna want to pirate it because the legit copy you bought you can't even watch cuz it blacks out all your screens
01:06:58 ◼ ► And the thing is I really wish I don't know maybe that maybe I'm missing the point of how you know copy protection works
01:07:14 ◼ ► So in the device in the goggles, then they're seeing everything you would expect to see but the airplay mirroring
01:07:22 ◼ ► You're getting blackness for the you know, that the square of content or if you're doing something immersive
01:07:27 ◼ ► Perhaps the entire display is black or it's like a checkerboard pattern or something like that
01:07:31 ◼ ► I really wish you could at least do that because what you've said Marco is exactly accurate like
01:07:35 ◼ ► Leaving aside whether or not you can turn off airplay the first time I did this with somebody
01:07:40 ◼ ► You know, they go to go into I think it was Disney Plus we were trying at the time and they were like
01:07:46 ◼ ► Well, it's not working. What are you talking about? And then I look at this the TV and like, oh, you're right
01:07:52 ◼ ► I bet you anything. This is DRM. And so then, you know cancelling cancelling airplay seem to do the trick if memory serves
01:07:59 ◼ ► And I only nerds would know that because there's no error message. It just shows it as black just black screen
01:08:04 ◼ ► The same thing is when you take a screenshot and on your iPad of trying to take a screenshot of TV show which I do all
01:08:14 ◼ ► Why don't they just show it to the person but not show it to me then you got your copper protection
01:08:21 ◼ ► Do the mirroring you have like broken the chain of trust like there's no way to do a three-way chain of trust
01:08:31 ◼ ► this is not on Apple and so far as Apple is just following these stupid industry standards that we have that Apple kind of has
01:08:44 ◼ ► Which it does but even if it didn't want to it has to work with all the other streamers
01:08:47 ◼ ► so they have to essentially implement this and your hardware and your everything has to be certified so this is all just so you can like
01:08:52 ◼ ► Watch content that's out there and it infects every part of their system as well because their whole video chain
01:08:58 ◼ ► And system is built on it and it's so incredibly dumb. So hopefully they'll do something to fix this
01:09:03 ◼ ► I mean again, especially with Apple's own apps and own streaming platforms and own OS and device
01:09:11 ◼ ► Fixing it for any other streaming apps if they ever exist on vision pro. Haha will be more tricky
01:09:18 ◼ ► Yeah, so anyway the showing people the 3d video proved to be tough because you know, the DRM thing is annoying
01:09:25 ◼ ► And again, it's like it's Apple's content on their own streaming service on their devices, you know
01:09:44 ◼ ► Well, I mean it's true anything in any kind of streaming service where it's like what about the thing I want to find
01:09:50 ◼ ► It's like never mind that have you seen these giant things that were advertising for the first two full screen folds until you get down
01:09:57 ◼ ► So it's an effects vision Pro to like any time you're like, hey, here's a video playing app surely
01:10:07 ◼ ► Intentionally hard to find the things that you want because they always want to shove something new in your face
01:10:11 ◼ ► Never mind what you constantly watch never mind anything about what you want or your favorites or your frequency
01:10:19 ◼ ► Which is so dumb for vision Pro where they should be allowing you there's so little content
01:10:26 ◼ ► But again, it's based on the same code base as the TV app and all their other platforms and it sucks everywhere
01:10:43 ◼ ► Apple's 3d and immersive content than there actually is there's actually very little of it
01:10:48 ◼ ► It's like a few demos basically or like, you know one episode of something like it's like, you know
01:10:56 ◼ ► Obviously, I'm sure Apple is gonna like stage it out, you know over the course of the year as they sell more vision pros
01:11:01 ◼ ► whatever else but Apple has has a lot of power here because they they are a video producer and
01:11:07 ◼ ► They have shown that they that they could they will make custom recording gear and record perfectly immersive stuff
01:11:17 ◼ ► They need to be doing a lot more of that because I think it's going to be a while if ever
01:11:25 ◼ ► So therefore they should step up more and produce a lot more stuff for this than what we're seeing so far
01:11:32 ◼ ► But I was kind of surprised and a little bit disappointed that there wasn't more immersive content available at launch
01:11:39 ◼ ► Well, it's the chicken egg thing because even Apple's own like, you know, Creative Wing is saying wait a second
01:11:44 ◼ ► You want us to spend how many millions to make a show that is only possible to be watched by?
01:11:53 ◼ ► Capability of watching and you want like let me show you how much money this is per person that you're asking us to spend
01:11:58 ◼ ► They're like, well, you don't understand we need to like drive people who want people to buy the thing
01:12:02 ◼ ► I'm like, yeah, but right now they haven't bought and you can't make more than this many per year
01:12:21 ◼ ► But you want us to make it today and I can imagine that being difficult for them to square
01:12:25 ◼ ► They I think they should make more because I think it's the most compelling thing in the entire headset
01:12:39 ◼ ► Alicia Keys swimming shark caliber of content that I don't think has ever been made before and sort of like a long-form full
01:12:46 ◼ ► Television thing like with that resolution and those cameras for like a regular TV show
01:12:50 ◼ ► And figuring out how to do that because I don't think anyone knows how to do that. Well at this point
01:12:59 ◼ ► Which is we should just do sports like this where you need to get a good sports contract and as Gruber said in those things
01:13:04 ◼ ► But when when Apple lost out for the bid for the NFL thing, he was kind of you know disappointed
01:13:18 ◼ ► You just need to point cameras at it and you can have the cameras be I with apart and you have 17 of those cameras
01:13:23 ◼ ► And you put them in weird places and that is a winner and that is a big draw and you have to pay
01:13:30 ◼ ► You just have to pay money up front to get the rights to be the one who has the cameras there
01:13:34 ◼ ► So I think that is a easier first path for Apple to go with this. Like how do I make compelling content for vision Pro?
01:13:40 ◼ ► Find a popular sport film it in 3d whether it's the NBA or Major League Soccer or whatever
01:13:47 ◼ ► That seems like an easy first move and I bet Apple wants to do that and is going to do that
01:13:52 ◼ ► Yeah, also concerts, you know other events like that's you see like, you know live events in 3d that seemed like a big market
01:14:12 ◼ ► Like I cannot overstate, you know, I haven't done a demo of the vision pro since you know
01:14:17 ◼ ► The first weekend I had it because we've been just exceedingly busy the last week and a half whatever it's been but that
01:14:22 ◼ ► That first I think was the first day that I had it that I did a handful of demos for a couple of friends
01:14:28 ◼ ► unquestionably sold everyone the most was that like sizzle reel of which I think we talked about quite a bit last week of all the different
01:14:34 ◼ ► Like immersive stuff the high the high tightrope walking lady the sharks the soccer game
01:14:47 ◼ ► What it would be like to be watching something but as you twist your head your perspective changes
01:15:11 ◼ ► It just can't handle anything more like it's not flickery and dim and weird like 3d movies with the glasses that you watch
01:15:39 ◼ ► But I think I had said last week, you know, I skipped through several minutes of it. I just kind of
01:15:44 ◼ ► exact around and it was phenomenally cool and to build on what Marco was saying a minute ago like I would pay all the money to
01:15:51 ◼ ► Have a really good, you know, Dave Matthews or mute math or whatever concert that that's been recorded with these
01:15:57 ◼ ► Obelisks these white obelisks of 3d cameras. I mean I would I would give all the money and I
01:16:13 ◼ ► So the the video demos again if we get past the DRM and the having them navigate to the Apple TV app
01:16:18 ◼ ► Like it is a very impressive thing. I will also say before I forget that the of the two
01:16:24 ◼ ► straps that come with the vision Pro the fancy one with the crank and the single headband around the back the solo knit band is
01:16:31 ◼ ► Far better for demo purposes than the nice comfortable dual loop band because it's so much faster and easier to adjust it
01:16:46 ◼ ► Very impractical for demo purposes the hastily assembled one is less practical than the one that they clearly designed from the beginning
01:16:55 ◼ ► So you want to be using the solo knit band the one with the single loop that goes around the back you want to use?
01:17:22 ◼ ► But you can kind of tell they're kind of doing you a favor. They're they're not their hearts not really in it
01:17:33 ◼ ► You know, she she didn't she was not impressed by the fit was not impressed by the weird
01:17:46 ◼ ► I had it when it accidentally flipped downward. So what Marco is talking about is there's like this very thin
01:17:52 ◼ ► Completely like flapping in the breeze material. That's good that that sits directly on top of your nose, which by default
01:17:59 ◼ ► It's kind of like flipped upwards. So it's it's black against the black inside of the of the vision Pro
01:18:06 ◼ ► So you don't really notice it but then it can't it has give to it cuz it's just a piece of fabric and so flipped
01:18:31 ◼ ► Like, you know, obviously like everyone that I'm having try this is trying my size to everything on it. So anyway
01:18:53 ◼ ► Thing where you have to like double tap the crown to confirm like you it's like hold it down and then double tap it
01:19:32 ◼ ► Like it's that's a great quality for your spouse to have because it's a wonderful first stage of QA
01:19:41 ◼ ► Software and I now have the 1.1 beta on it. So I don't know if this is fixed yet, but she put it on and
01:19:47 ◼ ► It basically immediately locked up and had to be rebooted. Oh cool. So this is still very, you know, very 1.0 kind of days
01:19:57 ◼ ► Anyway, so she gets through it. She basically said okay. Yeah, it's cool. But why would I want this?
01:20:11 ◼ ► Had all the testers tried the dining the encounter dinosaurs quote app, which is more of like a brief 3d demo
01:20:17 ◼ ► This is the thing you've heard about another podcast where like you hold your finger out in the butterfly lands on it
01:20:22 ◼ ► So I had I had five different people try this all five of them put their finger out to have the butterfly land on it
01:20:29 ◼ ► but it kind of looks like you can and so you try it and oh look the butterfly that my finger all five people did
01:20:33 ◼ ► That at some point a large dinosaur comes into your field of view which can look somewhat intimidating
01:20:38 ◼ ► Two people that I had tried including TIFF as soon as the big dinosaur big dinosaur showed up
01:20:49 ◼ ► Did you show them the dinosaur before you showed them Alicia Keys and a tightrope Walker, yes
01:20:58 ◼ ► Anyway, so yeah two people like noped right out of the headset as soon as the big dinosaurs showed up and the other three all
01:21:08 ◼ ► Yeah, so anyway that's that's roughly you know how it went everybody was fairly impressed with the 3d video content
01:21:31 ◼ ► It's I wish there was a little bit more a demo because after you watched a couple of sample things and it's like, okay
01:21:37 ◼ ► Like, you know, you can open up notes or my email if you want to see how that kind of stuff works
01:21:42 ◼ ► It's a little bit. It's a little bit awkward though. You open up photos. Oh, here's a panorama
01:21:45 ◼ ► You know, you can do that kind of stuff, but it's I do wish there was a little bit more demo content available
01:21:52 ◼ ► Did you you could have taken some spatial video of Adam with your phone and put it in there?
01:21:58 ◼ ► Tiff wasn't convinced by like the birthday scene and like the you know, the spatial video of people, you know
01:22:16 ◼ ► It was I don't know but it wasn't it didn't really sell her and then finally I got some interesting input from Adam
01:22:30 ◼ ► I recently got a quest 3 he barely cared first of all about using the vision Pro because there's no games
01:22:37 ◼ ► Like for him VR means games. Yeah. Yeah, obviously not a lot of people are gonna be buying a nearly $4,000 VR headset to play
01:22:44 ◼ ► Games on it as the primary purpose, but it's interesting like, you know from a kid's point of view how this is totally irrelevant
01:22:53 ◼ ► However, he did try it on he did the dinosaur demo and everything. He instantly noticed that the pass-through is
01:23:16 ◼ ► I've even noticed that like even when using the virtual Mac screen even when just doing
01:23:29 ◼ ► It's not like a massive deal killer, but it is something that you notice and it is yet again
01:23:33 ◼ ► One of the ways that I kind of felt a little eyestrainy when trying to use the Mac monitor mode
01:23:43 ◼ ► Yeah, I heard a lot of people talking about that and I do wonder could you tell whether it is like
01:23:51 ◼ ► Has a setting and the settings menu that says do you want us to do motion blur and if you have it checked they will
01:24:00 ◼ ► Artificially create motion blur by blending together frames because that's what you're used to seeing from like
01:24:05 ◼ ► You know cameras like film cameras or video cameras or whatever when you move them around
01:24:09 ◼ ► But you can turn that off and say no don't pretend you're a film camera. Don't artificially create motion blur
01:24:15 ◼ ► Just show me the frames which looks less like we expect from our life of watching films content
01:24:21 ◼ ► But if you're playing an FPS game, I find it you can see things better. So I turn it off
01:24:40 ◼ ► I imagine the response rate has to be insanely fast like every OLED so it's a little bit mysterious to me
01:24:45 ◼ ► But I heard this exact same complaint in many different reviews. I'm just wondering if if it's on purpose or not
01:24:50 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't know and I mean like the fact that it isn't just motion blurring your pass-through content
01:24:56 ◼ ► But it's also motion blurring the content of windows. Yeah. Well, Tom Vizzier would tell you check your motion blur
01:25:04 ◼ ► They would motion blur the pass-through the video like the windows that ever they would motion blur everything because that's again
01:25:11 ◼ ► The expectation of how would it look how when you see a TV show and they pan the camera you get motion blur
01:25:17 ◼ ► one of the reasons why I never really spent a lot of time with the quest 2 is that I would get a little bit motion
01:25:31 ◼ ► It is obviously a huge upgrade over the quest 2 but it is not good enough for for me to avoid motion problems
01:25:39 ◼ ► But for some reason quest 2 VR was not good for me quest 3 VR is also not good for me vision Pro
01:25:50 ◼ ► so a lot of might have to do with the whatever was called there was just something to the podcast that will
01:26:11 ◼ ► so they have to do computational stuff to sort of remap the camera's view with like an awareness of
01:26:17 ◼ ► What shape the world is so that it looks like you're looking through your eyeballs and not like your cheeks
01:26:26 ◼ ► Not done as well or maybe even not done at all on things like the quest because pass-through is not their emphasis
01:26:33 ◼ ► you know, it's more of a game-playing machine and that could be making you sick because
01:26:36 ◼ ► imagine if your eyes saw out of the center of your cheeks and you moved your head around your brain would be like I'm not
01:26:42 ◼ ► Seeing what I expect to see and it's you know, get the disconnect between what you see and what you feel
01:26:46 ◼ ► That's possible. I mean I so I tried I would use I use the quest 3 for about maybe 20 minutes and
01:26:55 ◼ ► Like a full-screen game and it didn't seem to be any different. It was bad there too. So
01:27:00 ◼ ► Anyway, so but speaking of eyes and eye placement this leads me to my last point about the demo experience, which was eyesight
01:27:24 ◼ ► Once I during one of the demos I hand it to a friend and somehow it stayed logged in as me
01:27:37 ◼ ► Their head actually using it and I got to see my own eyes. Oh, that's actually kind of convenient
01:28:02 ◼ ► Testing that out for a while getting some computational, you know stuff done over the weekend and Adam was hanging out like nearby in his computer
01:28:25 ◼ ► He thought that that was actually so it worked in the sense that it fooled another person
01:28:45 ◼ ► Possible to make this feature better enough in the future if they want to to maybe fool adults on a regular basis
01:28:56 ◼ ► You know this I mean we'll be talking this to death over the next three years before they finally kill it
01:29:02 ◼ ► But I see why they did it to try to make this product less antisocial than it really clearly is
01:29:10 ◼ ► Great, but there does seem to be enough room for improvement that maybe they can make it
01:29:16 ◼ ► Passable so the adults won't think it's too creepy and they can just get rid of it in a few years when they realize it's not
01:29:22 ◼ ► Worth the weight and battery savings. Well, so here's the thing about getting rid of it
01:29:25 ◼ ► Obviously the end goal is how about just make clear glasses where they can see your actual eyeballs?
01:29:33 ◼ ► But we we don't have the confluence of technology to be available to make something that light that high fidelity with that brightest greens
01:29:41 ◼ ► The end stage will presumably be they see your actual eyes and you don't have to do all this trickery right getting rid of it
01:29:48 ◼ ► we obviously think for waiting cost reasons if you have to make a low-cost version of this that's an easy way to save money, but I
01:29:54 ◼ ► as weird as eyesight is and as janky as it is and I do think it's pretty janky because I saw a lot of people
01:30:03 ◼ ► You know, it's it's dim. The lenticular lenses only show a couple different images from different angles, so they can't cover them all
01:30:10 ◼ ► So sometimes your eyes don't look like they're in the right place depending on what angle you're on
01:30:13 ◼ ► But it serves an important function to make it so other people are aware when you can see them
01:30:29 ◼ ► It's considered kind of rude if someone's wearing really dark glasses all the time and you're talking to them and you want to have a serious
01:30:39 ◼ ► It's not the end of the world sunglasses exist and we don't hate everybody who wears them
01:30:46 ◼ ► Considered rude for a reason right or wearing dark sunglasses indoors or at night as the song goes
01:30:54 ◼ ► The function I think they can never really like the need for it will always be there until we can see your eyes
01:31:00 ◼ ► The need for that will always be there how it's implemented. There is some flexibility. So
01:31:16 ◼ ► In fact Apple has patents related to this exact thing and maybe they even prototyped and thought it was dumb
01:31:20 ◼ ► but boy you can make that way lighter if you do like two monochrome E Ink screens on the outside of the goggles look like
01:31:29 ◼ ► I think it was in their patent like text like a text display that says I can currently see you or whatever
01:31:34 ◼ ► You know, I mean like why don't just put actually Google Google eyes on there. It's they're much lighter and cheap
01:31:38 ◼ ► Yeah, well, yeah, but but the thing is you want it to be switchable because you it's trying to communicate to people
01:31:46 ◼ ► I kind of wish they had this for AirPods where they can tell when when audio is playing them when audio is not playing in
01:31:53 ◼ ► That the utility of that feature will always exist as a question of how important is it is it important enough for you to pay?
01:32:04 ◼ ► There is no utility being able to tell when people can see you. There's always utility in it
01:32:09 ◼ ► It's just a question of what is the correct trade-off to get that functionality and I think you can get a lot of the benefit
01:32:15 ◼ ► Not the emotional I can see your eyes benefit, but at the very least the binary can this person see me or not?
01:32:20 ◼ ► Benefit you can get that with way less weight and way less cost than they're currently doing and I do wonder every time I see
01:32:35 ◼ ► But I think monochrome googly eyes would be easier to see at a glance when I was seeing people do their demos in the Apple
01:32:47 ◼ ► Sometimes if you're not at the right angle, and there's so many like specular highlights on that stupid shiny thing
01:32:52 ◼ ► You can't even see what the heck, you know, you can't see the dim image on the screen through the lenticular stuff
01:33:05 ◼ ► When they're totally immersed with the blue wavy stuff now and when they can actually see me
01:33:23 ◼ ► I'm just not convinced that the way they're trying to do it in the very first vision Pro is
01:33:27 ◼ ► The right path to be traveling down with the lenticular lenses and the really dim eyes and stuff like that
01:33:43 ◼ ► But I'm I'm not as anti eyesight as other people because I definitely see the point of this feature
01:33:49 ◼ ► And I think that point is always going to be relevant. Yeah, I'd actually like to build on what you said
01:34:02 ◼ ► like I think it is useful to get that visual cue whether or not the other person is paying any attention to you and
01:34:09 ◼ ► Get that visual cue whether or not that person is in an immersive environment. Like I think these are all really useful things
01:34:15 ◼ ► Yeah, it looks janky. There's the both of you have said yeah, it's not as bright as it should be
01:34:23 ◼ ► Think this is the best that we can do right now and I don't think if Apple can make this better
01:34:39 ◼ ► I do think this juice was worth the squeeze and I do think that it makes the device that much more
01:34:48 ◼ ► Regular people and that includes me like I I think I would like this device less if it didn't have eyesight
01:34:58 ◼ ► It's almost better that it's drinking weird because then we can all have a good laugh about how janky weird it is
01:35:01 ◼ ► Well, if you think about this is another sad reality of some Apple today with its restrictive policies and what can and can't be produced
01:35:09 ◼ ► In fact, I just saw someone get division Pro app rejected because what they made look too much like the Mac OS dock or something
01:35:24 ◼ ► There would be APIs that people would either discover or Apple would publish most likely people would discover for controlling that front screen
01:35:40 ◼ ► they would find the API for finding where your eyes are pointing and peep and people would figure out how to use that screen and
01:36:06 ◼ ► Allowing people to try things and then Apple gets to watch it all happen and then pick the winners and incorporate them into the OS
01:36:13 ◼ ► Is how the Mac got to where it is today and all of Apple's post Mac platforms have been essentially denied the opportunity
01:36:20 ◼ ► To allow that to happen and the only people who can come up with ideas are Apple because they keep all those API's
01:36:31 ◼ ► But it looks kind of like the doc they'll reject that but they're like we haven't thought of that yet
01:36:34 ◼ ► so no, we don't want you third-party developer to ever try anything like that and that really annoys me because I
01:36:41 ◼ ► Even if it is a scrolling text message that says I can currently see you I can currently see you know
01:36:46 ◼ ► Like who knows what the right choice is obviously Apple prototype the whole bunch of them
01:36:49 ◼ ► But again, you look at those patents, which means they did all that stuff internally what they shipped is the current eyeballs
01:36:54 ◼ ► But I'm willing to believe that there are other ways to communicate some or all of that information
01:37:06 ◼ ► Earlier and how nice it would be if people could tell whether you could hear them or not
01:37:14 ◼ ► An achievable goal because we've had air pods now for a while. I think people still don't know
01:37:22 ◼ ► When and whether you can hear them with air pods and it still makes people feel weird and and what we learn is that the
01:37:29 ◼ ► Correct kind of societally polite social interaction model is if you're going to stop and talk to somebody while wearing air pods
01:37:44 ◼ ► You can hear them and that you're not listening to something else and I think the same thing is going to be true of vision
01:37:58 ◼ ► But for most people if someone's coming up to you and wanting your attention or to have a conversation with you
01:38:08 ◼ ► Oh this this means I can see you well, but I think there's a big difference in years in the eyes because
01:38:15 ◼ ► There's nothing to indicate whether ears are accepting sound and other than like you so I see things in your ears
01:38:20 ◼ ► That means you can't hear me, but we all know that's not true because especially if you're not wearing our parts Pro
01:38:24 ◼ ► Having earbuds doesn't mean you can't hear anything, but we all know when someone's looking at us because we can see their eyes pointing at us
01:38:33 ◼ ► Removes the need for you to understand what the googly eyes mean or know that a green light means that the camera is on
01:38:40 ◼ ► All right like they don't require any of that they just require what your son did which is like hey
01:38:50 ◼ ► But there's no there's no expectation that you could ever look at somebody and know by looking at their ears
01:38:56 ◼ ► There's just there's just not that but the eyeballs tell you so with the eyeballs is a clear solution
01:39:00 ◼ ► So like just show the eyeballs and again the solution being how about having clear glasses where they can literally see your eyeballs
01:39:16 ◼ ► Everyone assumes that you can always hear them. That's my experience both in and out of my house
01:39:20 ◼ ► I have AirPods on my ear every time I take a dog walk and not a single time as anyone even
01:39:26 ◼ ► Considered the fact there might be a podcast playing they just start talking to me and this also happens inside my house
01:39:33 ◼ ► But like and I'm amazed and like you these are not small white earbuds. You can see them
01:39:38 ◼ ► There's no hat covering them and they're like I just assume you can hear everything I can say and then I have to quickly go
01:39:42 ◼ ► Up and pinch the thing so I can actually hear what they're saying in turn and pause the podcast or whatever
01:39:51 ◼ ► Sort of obvious way to indicate anything you would have to be learned but eyeballs. There's an obvious way
01:39:58 ◼ ► We just haven't been able to pull it off that well yet, and I think that I think that's probably why Apple didn't do
01:40:08 ◼ ► Ideally Apple would like to make that image as realistic as possible so that someone thinks I can faintly see your eyes through the really dark
01:40:22 ◼ ► They just haven't what they need to do is put an OLED color screen on the outside of each
01:40:27 ◼ ► And yeah, and just have it when you're in transparency mode just have it show a simulated image of
01:40:42 ◼ ► You don't know whether they can actually hear you or not because they have those ear earplugs that are like shoved away down your ear
01:40:46 ◼ ► Canal you know what I mean, or you know you could be hard of hearing right and so like another thing with like
01:40:51 ◼ ► You can kind of tell that with people who can't see you because they're if they can't see you
01:41:00 ◼ ► And they're looking at you you assume they can see you because if they couldn't see you
01:41:04 ◼ ► They wouldn't know where to point their eyes. You know what I'm saying. It's just like there's much less to learn there
01:41:08 ◼ ► Whereas seeing the gross waxing inside of people's ears. I'm not sure if that's much of an indicator
01:41:20 ◼ ► It's one of those the real the doctor tool call where they stick in your ear is that something a scope is
01:41:29 ◼ ► Right so do we want to talk about Fitz law yeah, this was an something that came up on dithering
01:41:39 ◼ ► Which they insisted on pronouncing Fitz's law because the person's name is F I T T s and the correct way to possess a size
01:41:54 ◼ ► I'm old and I've been saying Fitz's law for my entire life and the Wikipedia page even says it is often cited as Fitz's law
01:42:10 ◼ ► Which kind of makes sense if you have a big target and you time people get your mouse into this area
01:42:17 ◼ ► It's real easy for them to get the mouse into it and if the area is like two pixels by two pixels it takes so
01:42:24 ◼ ► But then overshoot then they got it back up and you adjust and adjust and finally get into the two little pixel target
01:42:34 ◼ ► this is research from user interface from the 80s back when the Mac was new and they were trying to figure out the best way to
01:42:39 ◼ ► Define interfaces and the reason it comes up in the context of the Mac is one of the things the Mac interface had from day
01:42:44 ◼ ► One is the menu bar at the top of the screen and this is always cited as a great example of Fitz's law
01:42:53 ◼ ► this is before multiple screens anyway jam your cursor up against the top of the screen and
01:43:05 ◼ ► And so essentially the menu bar has infinite height from a targeting perspective when you plug the numbers into Fitz's law
01:43:10 ◼ ► It's like okay the menu bar is this many pixels wide how many pixels high is it don't put in?
01:43:15 ◼ ► 34 pixels or however high the menu bar is it's infinity pixels high because all the person has to do is slam the mouse cursor up
01:43:21 ◼ ► To the top and then they just need to worry about the X position because the Y position is taken care of for them with one
01:43:30 ◼ ► It's always shown to say like what are the value of the screen edges like the dock being on the edge and how you can
01:43:37 ◼ ► slam the cursor to the bottom of the dock and even though it looks like there's a tiny little gap between the bottom of the
01:43:41 ◼ ► Screen in the dock and it's still clickable area because they want to take advantage of Fitz's law if the dock wasn't like that
01:43:46 ◼ ► And if like the bottom pixel of the screen was not clickable that would make the dock harder to target for people
01:43:54 ◼ ► Both with your eyeballs and with cursors saying well, there's no menu bar in vision Pro
01:43:59 ◼ ► And so that's maybe one of the reasons that all the targets seem to be a little bit larger because there are no screen corners
01:44:07 ◼ ► And there's no menu bar at the top to slam your cursor up against and it also came up in the context of eyeballs
01:44:23 ◼ ► Being able to look like there's an accessibility control where you can enable a cursor that supposedly shows where your eyeballs are
01:44:30 ◼ ► But I bet that is also smoothed out because the uncertainty about where your eyes are looking and how they dart around
01:44:39 ◼ ► But they have to kind of guesstimate and smooth the way you're looking right so bigger targets
01:44:46 ◼ ► but the key difference between your eyeballs and your hands and arms and when controlling a mouse or a trackpad is
01:44:56 ◼ ► Because of what we use them for in daily life are accustomed to having something that stops them
01:45:02 ◼ ► So if you're reaching for a doorknob, you're gonna fling your hand in the direction of the doorknob
01:45:07 ◼ ► And you're gonna start slowing your hand down as it approaches where you think the doorknob is
01:45:10 ◼ ► But you also know that once you start getting close to the doorknob and you start to feel it
01:45:14 ◼ ► The thing will eventually stop your hand is the doorknob itself. You're reaching for a light switch
01:45:27 ◼ ► Your fingertips are gonna touch the wall and then you'll know where the wall is and you'll complete the motion
01:45:40 ◼ ► Them finding something and that thing stopping them the menu bar functions like that in the virtual world
01:45:56 ◼ ► But your eyes have a different job as you wander around the world when your eyes dart from one place to another
01:46:02 ◼ ► Looking over there looking to see someone coming up your driveway looking back at the TV
01:46:11 ◼ ► Your eyeballs always have to stop on their own if they if you dart your eyeballs up to the menu bar
01:46:21 ◼ ► Nothing stops them except for your skull and the length of your muscles or whatever. So the job your eyeballs have done for the entire
01:46:27 ◼ ► Time you've our entire species has existed and all mammals that have eyeballs and everything
01:46:32 ◼ ► They have to be able to move to position and stop on their own. Whereas our limbs have always been able to rely on
01:46:40 ◼ ► Essentially making contact with something whether it's the ground the wall the light switch
01:46:46 ◼ ► Pulling a fruit from a tree, whatever it is that you're doing your limbs have always had something that stopped them
01:47:00 ◼ ► essentially irrelevant because your eyeballs are really really good at going somewhere quickly and
01:47:07 ◼ ► Stopping on their own and they don't need the help of a screen edge or another thing to slam against
01:47:13 ◼ ► like our hands and limbs do I don't know if this has any consequences for the interface I
01:47:28 ◼ ► Need something to slam against but I assume when you do it in the virtual screen on the Mac if there is no vision OS
01:47:37 ◼ ► It'll stop at the top as long as your gaze remains on the virtual display if I'm not mistaken
01:47:42 ◼ ► I mean I could try this out if we really care but suffice to say to the best of my recollection
01:47:58 ◼ ► That if you glance to say you're left to look at slack or something like that while you're still mousing about
01:48:07 ◼ ► even if it's a native slack window that you know a native vision OS slack window and so that occasionally can be
01:48:12 ◼ ► Little bit frustrating. I don't know maybe that's a little dramatic of me to say but a little bit off-putting maybe that you know
01:48:24 ◼ ► But then I glanced to the left to look at the right or what have you I glanced to the left to look at the vision
01:48:29 ◼ ► OS native slack and next thing I know my cursor is in the slack window because as far as the vision
01:48:36 ◼ ► That is the active surface right now and it's trying to use universal control to pull the mouse into what I'm looking at which does
01:48:42 ◼ ► Make sense, but it's not exactly what you would expect. You don't expect your cursor to just jump
01:48:47 ◼ ► You know, I don't know a thousand pixels to the left all of a sudden just because you've moved your head and look somewhere else
01:48:52 ◼ ► Another one of the disparities that division OS brings up that a lot of people have been talking about in their reviews
01:48:56 ◼ ► I mean we talked about last time with like having to continue looking at something and not glance off somewhere else until you've completed the
01:49:09 ◼ ► Traditionally input device our eyeballs. We use them to take in the world around us. They're an input device and
01:49:20 ◼ ► You now also determine the position of the cursor in a virtual world our eyeballs unless you're Superman are not output devices
01:49:31 ◼ ► So I'm standing and where you look with them doesn't affect future operations by for example your arms
01:49:36 ◼ ► It's like well, I looked up to the right and then I snapped my fingers and the thing I was looking at burst into flames
01:49:41 ◼ ► No, that doesn't happen anywhere, but a division always does so we are being asked to both use them as an input device
01:49:53 ◼ ► It's kind of they're trying to use the reverse but like what we call the mouse we call the mouse and input device
01:49:59 ◼ ► it provides the computer with input so our eyes are both an input device for our brain and
01:50:04 ◼ ► Also, they are an input device for the computer and an output device for us and that is not something that we're used to
01:50:15 ◼ ► I'm on vision OS and I'm hitting command tab and I wish it worked and maybe in the next version it will and it doesn't do
01:50:23 ◼ ► Window layering in vision OS we talked about it before our marker was like you do not want to have a bunch of overlapping windows
01:50:31 ◼ ► I tried it more in the simulator to get a feel for it and I was kind of surprised at how I
01:50:37 ◼ ► Guess I didn't notice this before I had to use the simulator for ages before but I guess I hadn't done
01:50:47 ◼ ► I'm like, how how did they implement window layering here? And so I just hope started opened a bunch of windows
01:51:03 ◼ ► How are we many many shows about before the vision for I was even released we were going through the developer documentation
01:51:21 ◼ ► It will make it bigger as you push it farther away so that so that it fills the exact same field of view
01:51:31 ◼ ► It will still be 15 degrees in your field of view, which means the window will be larger that you can override that
01:51:36 ◼ ► You can make it not do that. Right, but that's one of the behaviors they suggest for your windows
01:51:47 ◼ ► That's just like the Mac when I have a stack of a hundred windows and I bring the back one to the front
01:51:51 ◼ ► It doesn't change size. It becomes quote-unquote the frontmost window. It draws in front of the other windows
01:51:58 ◼ ► But it doesn't change size and ditto if I bury that window underneath a hundred windows
01:52:03 ◼ ► It doesn't shrink because it's not getting farther away. This is what I was getting at last time about like on the Mac
01:52:10 ◼ ► But we conceptually consider them to essentially be like pieces of paper like they're all
01:52:14 ◼ ► Pretty much at the same depth and yeah, it's magic because you can pull the one from the bottom up to the top
01:52:22 ◼ ► This is a stack of paper and then all the paper are touching each other. There's no space between them, right?
01:52:26 ◼ ► Which is why the magical metaphor of like I click on the back comes forward like it works for us
01:52:31 ◼ ► It's like it's just kind of like I took that piece of paper out and slipped it in front of the other ones
01:52:37 ◼ ► so the metaphor works for us. In Vision OS if you make a big mess and have a bunch of windows and some of them
01:52:43 ◼ ► are far away and some of them will close up and you have this huge stack of windows, which is the thing that you can
01:52:53 ◼ ► but I was trying to stay inside the room one of them is way against the back wall and then like 17 windows between me
01:53:12 ◼ ► What doesn't happen is that window does not suddenly leap to the front in 3d space. No, it stays pinned against that back wall
01:53:22 ◼ ► It also doesn't just start drawing on top of the other windows, which would look kind of weird
01:53:27 ◼ ► But it's the thing you can do what it does is it draws in front of everything, but then it fades out all the windows that are
01:53:36 ◼ ► Ostensibly in 3d space in front of it so that you can see the window that's against the back wall
01:53:43 ◼ ► By essentially making ghosts out of all the windows that would be blocking the view which is really weird
01:53:53 ◼ ► You don't see it animate forward and suddenly it's two feet away from you and then it animates back
01:53:57 ◼ ► But it wants to essentially bring it to the front and this in the context of command tab
01:54:05 ◼ ► You're like, oh suddenly the wind the front most active window is the window that is currently buried behind seven windows
01:54:11 ◼ ► How does that become frontmost and they don't walk that window up to you go do to do to do here comes the window
01:54:23 ◼ ► The window would slowly shrink as it moves towards you, but you wouldn't notice because it's moving closer to you
01:54:31 ◼ ► For example if that window is now two feet in front of you and style against the back wall
01:54:34 ◼ ► But instead they draw that window in front of everything else and fade everybody out like they're a ghost
01:54:38 ◼ ► So what it means is if you have a lot of windows open and you pick one of them and it is not
01:54:43 ◼ ► Literally physically the frontmost the other windows become ghosts the other windows fade away and you can't see them and they come up
01:54:50 ◼ ► It's not just the part that is drawing over but even the edges of them get all fuzzy or whatever and it's super weird
01:54:55 ◼ ► It's kind of like if you had a stack of a hundred text edit windows and you pulled the one in the back to the front
01:54:59 ◼ ► And instead of that window just drawing in front of them all the other windows faded away and became ghostly and that one drew in
01:55:06 ◼ ► Its current position in the back, but with the ghost windows faded out in front of it. I
01:55:12 ◼ ► don't know if this is if this is the correct approach, but this is apparently what vision Pro does now and it explains Marco's
01:55:30 ◼ ► It's what they decided to do in 3d and I guess maybe they tried all the other ways and they were worse
01:55:35 ◼ ► but it is weird and it does make it so that having lots of windows open is much less tenable because
01:55:48 ◼ ► It will never actually bring that window to the front. It just sort of like it's like plowing
01:55:54 ◼ ► It's like a particle beam that blows away all the other windows and fades them out and disintegrates their matter
01:55:58 ◼ ► so that you have a clear shot at that window that is five feet away from you on the back wall and then when you
01:56:05 ◼ ► Dematerialized windows come back into being and stop being ghosts and start drawing themselves again, and I find it extremely weird
01:56:20 ◼ ► I put myself in the position where I had a couple of windows layered on top of each other and I was seeing that ghosting
01:56:24 ◼ ► And whatever and that was the first time because I was using that Mac virtual display at the same time
01:56:39 ◼ ► and try to you know tab between the windows and of course that didn't work for nothing and
01:56:48 ◼ ► Outside of you know a bunch of windows on top of each other in 3d space and trying to move between them
01:57:00 ◼ ► Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to do anything. But yeah, but if it did like what it would do is
01:57:05 ◼ ► Fire that particle beam and plow its way through all the other windows without moving any of them
01:57:10 ◼ ► So you have a clear line of sight on the one window that is essentially going to draw in front of all the other ones
01:57:15 ◼ ► even though it is still behind them and like it's literally behind them like you can get up and walk over and stand in the
01:57:22 ◼ ► Space between the windows like it's spatial computing, but they like they haven't figured out a way
01:57:29 ◼ ► You know the fake metaphor I just said of like the paper stacked or whatever like that's not based in reality
01:57:34 ◼ ► but it's close enough like the stack of paper analogy like if you had a bunch of papers out and you wanted the one in the
01:57:43 ◼ ► You can imagine that's what's going on with all these pieces of paper that are windows on your thing
01:57:51 ◼ ► magic glass things floating in your living room and they were all stacked and some of them are against the back wall and some of
01:57:56 ◼ ► Them were in the middle and some of them are real close to you and you want it to get at the one in the back
01:58:03 ◼ ► Fly towards you and pass through the other ones and now that one is the front post and then it could fly in the back
01:58:11 ◼ ► Would you want the other ones to fly out of the way and part like the Red Sea so you can see that one?
01:58:16 ◼ ► Or do I guess you want all the other ones to become weird ghosts so you can see through them to the one in the back
01:58:43 ◼ ► So that I can draw that one in front of the other windows and it doesn't feel that weird to you
01:58:49 ◼ ► Thank you so much to our members who supported this entire episode. You can join us at ATP FM
01:58:57 ◼ ► Slash-join, there's lots of benefits to being a member. Please consider joining us. Once again, ATP that FM slash join
01:59:56 ◼ ► So a few times during the episode I mentioned that I had gone to the library to do some work and I've also been
02:00:13 ◼ ► Working on I got a little sidetrack doing some adding some features to regular plain old call sheet
02:00:20 ◼ ► Which just got released which by the way, if you're interested in how tall actors are or and or your name is Merlin, man
02:00:26 ◼ ► Go get the latest update because where possible I show how tall actors are and Merlin seems very excited, which I'm very happy
02:00:34 ◼ ► Wicked data actually so the same thing that that Wikipedia uses or I don't know the relationship between the two
02:00:51 ◼ ► I've been doing a lot of vision Pro work because now that I have the vision Pro now that I have my hilarious
02:00:56 ◼ ► $300 developer strap I've been putting both to good use and trying to work on the vision Pro native version of call sheet and
02:01:05 ◼ ► this this is you know as an aside, we don't need to unpack this right now because it could take hours already running long, but
02:01:14 ◼ ► Running a branch that you're not doing a good job of keeping up to date with Maine and then trying to bring it back in
02:01:21 ◼ ► Line with Maine like a month or two later not fun my friends not fun to the point that I actually
02:01:27 ◼ ► Abandoned like I still have it but I abandoned my initial vision Pro branch the same one that I used when I went to a lab
02:01:36 ◼ ► manually replaying a lot of those changes in part because I've got different opinions about what I should do and in part because
02:01:41 ◼ ► Even even though it's only been a couple of months. There's been such a divergence between
02:01:52 ◼ ► The point is what was my experience like doing, you know writing code and in trying to get work done both at the library and at home
02:01:57 ◼ ► Because I found that even when I'm at home, even though I've got you know, 15 K's if you will of screen here
02:02:12 ◼ ► Write code and run it in the vision Pro when you're when Xcode is also in the vision OS world
02:02:18 ◼ ► And so I've been using Mac virtual display for that the developer strap like I had said on the show
02:02:25 ◼ ► It is worth it if you're doing any real development because it seems to work much much much better
02:02:40 ◼ ► Two chargers that I use I don't use an official Apple charger. I have I think it's an anchor charger that has one like I
02:02:49 ◼ ► USB-c port for a computer like a 30 watt port or thereabouts for an iPad or phone or what-have-you and it also happens to have
02:03:04 ◼ ► 100 watt slot to the computer a just general USB C connection from the 30 watts to the battery for the vision Pro
02:03:14 ◼ ► Different USB C cable going from the vision Pro developer strap to my computer no hubs or anything like that
02:03:20 ◼ ► That's that's all it was and I had my air pods in and when I finally decided to commit to using the developer strap
02:03:27 ◼ ► I was getting this incredibly odd feedback like a like a like a very high-pitched humming sound
02:03:37 ◼ ► The computer and the battery pack plugged in and if I unplugged the mag safe or if I unplugged the battery pack it went away
02:03:43 ◼ ► I don't think this has happened since so I don't know if my library happens to have very dirty power or something like that
02:03:48 ◼ ► But it was the weirdest thing and I noticed it several times at the library. That was weird thing number one weird thing number two
02:03:57 ◼ ► So I really enjoyed working in a fully immersive environment in part because the room I was in was wide
02:04:03 ◼ ► but but shallow so, you know, it was probably um, I don't know 10 ish feet so a couple of meters a little bit more than
02:04:11 ◼ ► A couple of meters wide and like less than a meter, you know less than three feet deep or no
02:04:16 ◼ ► Maybe there's a little more than three feet. I know it was not a lot. It was you know wide but but not very deep and
02:04:20 ◼ ► When you're trying to put windows around when you're not immersed you're running into the wall
02:04:26 ◼ ► Like it'll do it, but it just looks weird. And so being immersed was way way way better
02:04:31 ◼ ► I am a pretty darn good touch typist many many moons ago you and I did or you the three of us did a
02:04:37 ◼ ► Like a typing race thing what I think on the air or maybe we did it off the air and compared notes after the fact
02:04:46 ◼ ► I don't need to look at my my hands when I type that being said when you're fully immersed
02:05:02 ◼ ► Yeah, like I don't realize how much I need to glance at the keyboard until I'm trying to do that
02:05:09 ◼ ► It's like it was people who buy the keyboards with key caps that have nothing on them to show off
02:05:16 ◼ ► No, yeah, because that's the problem is like to like align myself with the feel of what you know
02:05:20 ◼ ► Where my fingers even go that's where I found myself when I'm in vision pro kind of missing sometimes
02:05:25 ◼ ► Yeah, I feel like that's that's a good upgrade that like so they have obviously the vision pro detects your hands and your arms
02:05:35 ◼ ► Yeah, because this was on the laptop keyboard and actually the only other keyboard that I use is the
02:05:39 ◼ ► The whatever 104 key whatever it is with touch ID here at home and those are the only keyboards I use
02:05:45 ◼ ► So yes, it should have been able to detect it. Like it's a fine first worldiest of first world problems
02:05:58 ◼ ► You got to find the keyboard enough to find the bumps first though. Exactly exactly. I could not have put it better myself
02:06:08 ◼ ► When did the didn't the bumps used to be on D and K or something like that years ago Apple?
02:06:22 ◼ ► Using Apple keyboards drove me nuts because it was under my middle fingers instead of my pointer fingers like the little lumpies or whatever
02:06:28 ◼ ► Anyways, couldn't find the damn keyboard air pods were having a little bit of feedback, which again, I don't think I've heard since
02:06:34 ◼ ► But one of the things is and I I don't know if I ever linked to this in the last week's show notes
02:06:49 ◼ ► have this whole like array of windows around me with native of vision OS messages native vision OS slack and
02:07:12 ◼ ► IO or the iPad OS native apps and in this case, I'm picking on slack, but it's not just slack
02:07:21 ◼ ► Vision OS and the thing of it is is I don't know if it's something on Apple's side or the way the apps are designed
02:07:28 ◼ ► Or both but and again, I'm not the first to say this but finding the touch targets is really difficult
02:07:37 ◼ ► I think I mentioned this last week in the upper left where you choose which workspace you're in, you know
02:07:50 ◼ ► Now with that said with universal control, it's not so terrible because you can just mouse right up there
02:07:54 ◼ ► But the slack a slack app on vision OS I am really looking forward to and I don't even know if they've announced anything
02:08:00 ◼ ► But I'm really looking forward to getting that as vision OS native because I think it'll be much better
02:08:04 ◼ ► But yeah overall really great experience. It's a little teeny bit of a bummer when I'm at home when I'm losing
02:08:15 ◼ ► It's a bummer to bring that down to one and I think we talked about last week, you know
02:08:19 ◼ ► There's rumblings that maybe Apple can do two windows on the same or it's you know, two
02:08:24 ◼ ► Anyway, it seems like especially given our the supposed revelations about the developer strap and the potential of higher bandwidth there that it could
02:08:33 ◼ ► Be something that comes to a later version of the OS if only for people with the developer strap. Yeah. Yeah, definitely
02:08:44 ◼ ► But all all that being said like, you know, there's some things I would definitely tweak about this, but it's pretty nice
02:09:01 ◼ ► I wouldn't necessarily choose to give up my standing desk in my situation at home, but I do like quite a bit
02:09:10 ◼ ► But of course, of course that raises the question if I'm sitting on Mount Hood in the library
02:09:19 ◼ ► And and I don't really have a good answer for that other than the the tea ceremony if you you know
02:09:27 ◼ ► I kind of miss like I'm very thankful and lucky that I don't have to do that every single day
02:09:46 ◼ ► Like a LG ultrafine 4k display with me without having actually having to carry very much
02:09:51 ◼ ► But the flip side of that is it's almost not even necessary anymore, which is a weird and odd feeling
02:10:09 ◼ ► It's also getting out of the house right like when you're at wait when you're at Wegmans
02:10:12 ◼ ► Someone can't yell your name and ask you to come do something. Oh, well, it's only Aaron but your point is still fair
02:10:23 ◼ ► Anyway, I really do like being able to get out of the house and go somewhere and just change my scenery and have the act
02:10:31 ◼ ► That's because I believe in superior computers that you can move very easily and don't need to worry about carrying multiple pieces
02:10:37 ◼ ► Marco, I believe you are also an enlightened individual that believes in these weird funky things multiple pieces. You're bringing a headset with
02:10:49 ◼ ► But nevertheless, I believe Marco you are also an enlightened person that believes in these funky things called laptops
02:11:02 ◼ ► Share some of your need for getting out of the house one time because we work for ourselves in our houses
02:11:27 ◼ ► like that's that's the answer because yeah, like I'm gonna like, you know, go work in a coffee shop or something part of the joy of
02:11:35 ◼ ► It being out there, you know seeing people saying hello to people when they come in if you've seen them before
02:11:44 ◼ ► It's like so a part of the appeal is to be a little bit in the world now if you're using vision Pro out in a
02:11:53 ◼ ► Place like a coffee shop. First of all, you're already covering your eyes and immersing yourself, etc
02:11:58 ◼ ► Even if you're in pass-through mode you are projecting, you know, the anti-social version of yourself
02:12:07 ◼ ► And so if you need any kind of audio as part of your work if you're watching or listening to something
02:12:21 ◼ ► I feel like at that point you aren't only being extremely anti-social to the people around you and to the business that you're in
02:12:27 ◼ ► But also you are then losing quite a bit of the value of being there in the first place for me in that context a laptop
02:12:35 ◼ ► Optionally with headphones is much better because at least then your eyesight is totally unencumbered
02:12:48 ◼ ► I feel like you're getting more of the environment that way even if you have air pods in for whatever reason you need that
02:12:54 ◼ ► So again, I see the appeal very much to vision Pro for things like immersive entertainment
02:12:58 ◼ ► If you're gonna watch a movie bring it on a plane, I think there's a lot of arguments for that
02:13:03 ◼ ► But like working in a coffee shop or working in you know out in public somewhere for the sake of
02:13:09 ◼ ► Getting out in the world and you know getting out of your house. I don't think it's working for your purposes there
02:13:18 ◼ ► Don't underestimate. Like I said, like don't underestimate the value especially if you're working on a programming problem or whatever of
02:13:24 ◼ ► Looking out the window and you can say I can look out the window with vision Pro. It's got pass through
02:13:29 ◼ ► No, I mean looking out the window and focusing your eyes 50 feet away at the tree across the street while you think about a problem
02:13:39 ◼ ► But it really for if you're working on computer for a long period of time. I feel like it does help to
02:13:44 ◼ ► Focus your eyes on a different distance even forget about the headset even just sitting in front of your max monitor
02:13:58 ◼ ► I used to do this at work look over your monitor out the windows that hopefully are in your office and out in the distance
02:14:04 ◼ ► Look at your neighbor seven cubicles away and wave like it's just good to to focus your eyes at different distances to relax and to
02:14:12 ◼ ► Have a an environment where you can think about things and that that remains one of the weaknesses of a headset with a fixed focal
02:14:18 ◼ ► Length unless you're doing the defocus your eyes and have a thousand yard staring you're not looking anything
02:14:26 ◼ ► Remind yourself to focus on different distances to avoid eye strain and honestly and you know in my programmer head