00:00:00 ◼ ► we were talking in the pre-show, like the pre-pre-show before we went live and you know I was asking
00:00:13 ◼ ► that." Not in the, like "I'm in trouble, come to the principal's office" way but in the
00:00:23 ◼ ► The story's not that interesting. I've been very slowly renovating a new house, moving into the
00:00:32 ◼ ► new house. All of the stuff from the old house has been in a giant pile of boxes that consumes
00:00:38 ◼ ► the entire garage of the new house because we sold the old house months ago, like a long time ago,
00:00:46 ◼ ► like in the fall. It's been a journey. However, as of this week, I have spent the first night in the
00:00:55 ◼ ► new house, which is a huge step. I'm currently recording from the new house. The first podcast
00:01:16 ◼ ► But no, I'm now coming to you from the new house, from the new office that is not nearly sound-damped
00:01:22 ◼ ► enough yet because there's almost nothing in it, so I'll be doing some isotope processing on the file.
00:01:27 ◼ ► You should have taken some of those boxes from the garage, the ones with clothes in them,
00:01:32 ◼ ► Yeah, I have a moving blanket, a dog, a foldable mattress. I have a bunch of other stuff,
00:01:43 ◼ ► No, we don't have doorknobs yet, and so normally there would be a giant hole in the door that would
00:01:58 ◼ ► Yeah, there's a lot going on here. Oh, and most importantly, of course, I wasn't able to complete
00:02:08 ◼ ► the network wiring jack installations until all the painting and stuff was done, which I'm not even
00:02:14 ◼ ► sure if it's done yet, so I haven't done that yet. So instead, I'm running a network cable in the
00:02:25 ◼ ► We know how you love taking indoor things and putting them outdoors. This is your kink, we know it.
00:02:36 ◼ ► Wow. So anyway, that's what I'm recording right now. I'm recording through 140 Ethernet cables,
00:02:45 ◼ ► going out my window, across my yard, into my garage to reach the router with socks in the door hole.
00:02:51 ◼ ► But this doesn't sound bad, actually. It sounds like everything is mostly copacetic, am I wrong?
00:03:02 ◼ ► in the middle of the room, is just a hole, because the fans are like, we're just ordering fans now,
00:03:07 ◼ ► so those haven't gotten installed yet. We don't have any, our silverware is somewhere in the
00:03:13 ◼ ► middle of the giant cube of boxes in the garage. I went to a dollar store and got some little flimsy
00:03:18 ◼ ► dollar store silverware to eat dinner with. We have no chairs to sit on while eating dinner,
00:03:22 ◼ ► so we're all just standing at the counter. It's very much an ad hoc situation going on here.
00:03:29 ◼ ► We've talked about this before, but when did you become a fan person, Marco? When did this happen?
00:04:02 ◼ ► All right, well, that's if you buy ones that aren't crap and install them less than 10 years ago.
00:04:15 ◼ ► Isn't that the problem with yours, where it rocks and the chain hits the dome and stuff?
00:04:23 ◼ ► It's oscillating enough that the chain is hitting the thing. I'm afraid it's gonna fall off.
00:04:29 ◼ ► No, that's more the family room one or the living room, depending on what you want to call it.
00:04:32 ◼ ► That's the one that's oscillating enough that it's probably going to fall down at some point.
00:05:01 ◼ ► if for some reason you are tired of constantly being afraid that you might get laid off,
00:05:14 ◼ ► If you want to be sure that you will always have a job no matter what, become a plumber.
00:06:15 ◼ ► Fan people are people who need to have fans blowing on them in most of the rooms in their house.
00:06:21 ◼ ► What a fan does is it buys you some headroom from needing the air conditioning to be colder.
00:06:51 ◼ ► What's the average height of an American room? Like eight feet? What are we talking about?
00:06:59 ◼ ► No, they hang down lower than that, especially if they have the ones with the little ornate
00:07:03 ◼ ► kind of flower, like a swirly little arm with a flowery light thing on the end of them.
00:07:23 ◼ ► I turn them off and then someone comes in and turns them back on. It's constant battle.
00:07:30 ◼ ► Oh, wow. No, first of all, a ceiling fan on low is usually inaudible. And usually having
00:07:36 ◼ ► that little bit of air movement, if it's like a hot day outside and I want the air conditioning on,
00:07:41 ◼ ► usually I can, if I'm just using the fan, I can wait until the room is like 78 degrees before I
00:07:47 ◼ ► really feel like I need the air conditioning on. Whereas if I have no air movement, it's more like,
00:07:57 ◼ ► it maybe doesn't work in every climate, but it worked pretty well in ours is I think what they
00:08:05 ◼ ► Yeah, like a central fan that sucks air into like into the attic from the house. And so it
00:08:09 ◼ ► Exactly right. And it wasn't particularly good or fancy or whatever, but it had the same effect
00:08:14 ◼ ► that you're describing where we would just open the windows and turn on the attic fan and you
00:08:18 ◼ ► get cool natural air coming in like in the evening or in the morning. It was great. It was so much
00:08:23 ◼ ► better than the air conditioning, you know, eventually you had to resort to the air conditioning,
00:08:26 ◼ ► but it was, I enjoyed that. But that, those are, those are noisy. But the key thing about those
00:08:33 ◼ ► That's not what I want is absolutely not what I want. It's what fan people want. Not what I want.
00:08:51 ◼ ► I mean, this is the correct opinion. Not, I mean, I'm not, it's not fair of me to be the arbiter of
00:09:16 ◼ ► Well, not really. Cause she has, she has her own friends. They're just not ceiling fans.
00:09:22 ◼ ► Well, you know, she, I think in our house, the ceilings are so low that the fans really
00:09:26 ◼ ► would be an issue. Like our, some of our ceilings are like seven feet. So do the math on that one.
00:09:30 ◼ ► John, you've denied that poor woman, not only fans, but air conditioning. You are a monster, sir.
00:09:36 ◼ ► She's not denied air conditioning. She gets her air condition. Don't you worry about that.
00:09:49 ◼ ► Jim writes regarding image captioning on iOS that you spoke about in the last ATP overtime.
00:09:53 ◼ ► I recently noticed that Siri is able to provide a basic description of images sent via iMessage
00:10:10 ◼ ► I want to say it's a little more than a few weeks. I want to say it was like two to three months,
00:10:13 ◼ ► maybe, but it's been a while, but I've noticed this as well. And it's also incredibly nice,
00:10:18 ◼ ► when you're using CarPlay, because even though I'm not in the car as much as I think I make it
00:10:23 ◼ ► out to be, I, it is not unusual for me to receive at least a couple of text messages when I'm
00:10:27 ◼ ► driving. And I never look at my phone when I'm driving because I have this magical thing called
00:10:31 ◼ ► CarPlay, which Marco used to have and now has forgotten about. And so they'll do the same thing,
00:10:37 ◼ ► you know, CarPlay, Siri on CarPlay will do the same thing where it'll read you a vague description
00:10:42 ◼ ► of what the picture is. And I gotta say, it's not always great, but it's certainly a heck of a lot
00:10:49 ◼ ► better than nothing. Like my most infuriating moment in CarPlay is, you know, such and such
00:10:57 ◼ ► Okay. Like that's great. And now this message is read, so I will forget to go back to it.
00:11:02 ◼ ► And you haven't told me anything. You can't read the tweet. You can't even read the title of that
00:11:07 ◼ ► page. Like it's useless. It's so frustrating. But like do not disturb while driving turned on.
00:11:11 ◼ ► No, only because of CarPlay. I used to before I had a car with CarPlay and now with CarPlay,
00:11:16 ◼ ► it doesn't, it doesn't affect me unless I tap on the screen and say, I would like to hear this
00:11:22 ◼ ► Right. Well, anyways, the point is, this is very, very cool. And I'm glad that Jim reminded us to
00:11:27 ◼ ► bring it up. And again, it ain't perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than getting, you know,
00:11:42 ◼ ► whatever we're going to call it, could that be used to improve the way Siri reads aloud the
00:11:48 ◼ ► text messages over AirPods as well, which is probably the same system because even just not
00:11:52 ◼ ► even just like images, just the way it reads text is often so stupid. Like it, the way it will,
00:11:58 ◼ ► it will like stumble through things like phone numbers or like package tracking numbers.
00:12:03 ◼ ► It'll stumble through addresses really weirdly and poorly. It'll, it'll, it'll fumble all over
00:12:08 ◼ ► like bank alerts that have like currency. Like it'll, it'll, the way it reads just regular text
00:12:14 ◼ ► needs a lot of improvement. So, and this is the kind of thing like as Apple increases its
00:12:24 ◼ ► this is the kind of thing I'm looking forward to. Like, yeah, sure. Generate me a picture of,
00:12:27 ◼ ► you know, a Jeep driving into a river. Like that's fun sometimes. But what I really want
00:12:31 ◼ ► much more often is like the basics of this kind of stuff to just be better. And so I'm kind of,
00:12:36 ◼ ► and that's what I'm looking forward to more of that. Like the, you know, the, the less flashy,
00:12:48 ◼ ► but incredibly inconsistently. I don't know what determines when it's going to do it or when it
00:12:53 ◼ ► decides it's not going to. Once it did it the first time, I'm like, Oh, this is great. I bet
00:12:57 ◼ ► I'll be hearing this from now on. Nope. Every once in a while it does it, but most of the time
00:13:01 ◼ ► it doesn't and I don't get it. So hopefully that also gets more consistent. Yeah, indeed.
00:13:06 ◼ ► If you are super bored and want something to do, you can watch the approximately nine hours
00:13:12 ◼ ► of DMA compliance feedback session, which is now available to anyone, even those who didn't sign up
00:13:17 ◼ ► for it. And we'll put a link in the show notes. Yeah. The one thing I'll say about this is I was
00:13:20 ◼ ► watching it. Some of it today, I wanted to confirm the length so I could write the nine hour thing in
00:13:25 ◼ ► the show notes here. And so I'm like, okay, well, I'll just look at it. Will it just tell me the
00:13:29 ◼ ► time? No. Okay. Um, I know at the top it has like a time, like from 9 AM to 1700 hours or whatever,
00:13:35 ◼ ► but like, I'm like, Oh, was that the length of the meeting or is that the length of the video?
00:13:38 ◼ ► Like I'll just move the scrubber to the end. Uh, but this video player that is installed on this
00:13:43 ◼ ► webpage is the most infuriating thing I've ever seen in my entire life. I think it is multiple
00:13:49 ◼ ► videos and multiple videos broken up into pieces. Right? So even though it's one continuous scrubber,
00:13:55 ◼ ► it's like segmented. So you can't look at the timestamp to see where you are. So for example,
00:14:00 ◼ ► I was playing it here and then I wanted to play it on my phone as I went out to wash dishes or
00:14:04 ◼ ► whatever. I'm like, let me just set it to the same place. I was, let me just look at the timestamp
00:14:08 ◼ ► that will not work because on the phone, it plays them with the native player, but it plays them
00:14:12 ◼ ► segment wise. So you have to know which segment you're in and then which offset within that
00:14:16 ◼ ► segment. I've never seen anything like this in my life. It's, it's called a timeline. It just,
00:14:20 ◼ ► it starts at zero and it goes to some amount and you move. Wow. Just really, really Byzantine.
00:14:27 ◼ ► Anyway, uh, if you want to watch the thing, it is as pretty much as boring as you would think it
00:14:30 ◼ ► would be. And probably it's not that relevant, but you know, if, if you, if you're a completionist,
00:14:46 ◼ ► vice president of the European commission. Uh, she's been the one that's been doing a lot of the
00:14:50 ◼ ► talking and tweeting and whatnot about the DMA and so on and so forth. I do plan to listen to this.
00:14:56 ◼ ► This just broke, I think earlier today. So I didn't have a chance to listen before we were recorded.
00:15:00 ◼ ► Um, but, uh, uh, John Gruber over at Daring Fireball, I don't know why I introduced him
00:15:04 ◼ ► like that as though we didn't know who he was, but here we are. Anyways, um, uh, John has listened to
00:15:09 ◼ ► it and has some brief notes on it. And apparently, uh, Margrethe has confirmed that the EU contacted
00:15:16 ◼ ► Apple about both the home screen web apps thing and Epic's account that they took away and then
00:15:21 ◼ ► curiously gave back. So here we are. That's me confirming that cause I did listen to the interview.
00:15:25 ◼ ► Oh, thank you. Yeah. She straight up straight up says like, you know, we were speculating,
00:15:29 ◼ ► Oh, it's probably because the EU contacted them and she just says, yeah, this thing happened.
00:15:32 ◼ ► And then we talked to Apple and asked them to change it. And at least those specific two things
00:15:37 ◼ ► about the home screen web app thing is a thing we didn't get a chance to talk about on the show, but
00:15:40 ◼ ► it's not that important, but Apple was doing a thing and people were annoyed by it. And, and
00:15:43 ◼ ► the, uh, European commission contacted Apple and they changed it. And same thing with Epic's
00:15:48 ◼ ► account where we're like, Oh, the EU probably contacted them. That's why they did it. Yep.
00:15:55 ◼ ► we've been wondering about that and we have to hear the confirmation on a interview podcast,
00:16:00 ◼ ► whatever. I mean, more of the mysteries of this process. All right. Uh, Apple meta and Google
00:16:07 ◼ ► have been officially targeted by the EU in DMA noncompliance investigations. This is a coverage
00:16:12 ◼ ► from the verge. The European commission is opening five noncompliance investigations into how Apple,
00:16:17 ◼ ► Google, and meta are complying with its new digital markets act antitrust rules. Quote,
00:16:22 ◼ ► we suspect that the suggested solutions put forward by the three companies do not fully
00:16:27 ◼ ► comply with the DMA. The use antitrust chief, uh, again, Margaret to vest here. I think I have that
00:16:32 ◼ ► right. Uh, said, and so this, I, we have a little more to say about this, but I find it so delightful
00:16:38 ◼ ► and I know everyone has made this point at least once, maybe twice, but I will now make it thrice.
00:16:42 ◼ ► It is so delicious that Apple has to just throw stuff against the wall and pray that the people
00:16:48 ◼ ► in charge like it like, Oh, the just desserts here. Or there's in the schadenfreude is just,
00:16:57 ◼ ► The EU has issued guidelines and Apple is welcome to do all of the work upfront to, you know, see
00:17:03 ◼ ► what will fit and then submit their work to the EU, the European commission. And they'll tell them
00:17:08 ◼ ► whether they fit their guidelines or not, but they have to do all the work first. They've already got
00:17:11 ◼ ► a much better, uh, back and forth because they had that whole feedback session where Apple was allowed
00:17:15 ◼ ► to participate. Can you imagine having nine hours to talk with app review about why they rejected
00:17:21 ◼ ► your app and to defend why you think it should, that it does comply. Like, so this is all, it's
00:17:26 ◼ ► not just Apple. It's obviously it's met a Google and whatever. I continue to think that DMA is
00:17:29 ◼ ► poorly written and that if they consulted with people who knew better about the tech industry,
00:17:35 ◼ ► they could have said, what do you really want to happen here? Because what you've written is not
00:17:38 ◼ ► going to cause that to happen. And lo and behold, what they've written has not caused what they
00:17:41 ◼ ► wanted to happen. So they had that nine hour feedback session, compliance feedback to basically
00:17:45 ◼ ► say, Hey, you out there in the world, do you have a complaint about how any of these companies have
00:17:50 ◼ ► complied with the DMA? I think this nine hour one might've just been Apple, right? But anyways, like,
00:17:54 ◼ ► do you have complaints about how they complied? And as you imagine, as we discussed at length on
00:17:57 ◼ ► past episodes, yes, people have complaints about how Apple is complying. So they have that nine
00:18:02 ◼ ► hour session. And in response to that, uh, the European commission said, okay, Apple and meta and
00:18:07 ◼ ► Google, we think you're probably not complying with what we wrote, which again, isn't shocking
00:18:12 ◼ ► because what they wrote is too vague. Uh, and so now they're going to, uh, investigate whether they
00:18:18 ◼ ► are complying and presumably tell them what they need to do to comply. Uh, and the specific things
00:18:23 ◼ ► that they have complaints about are things that we talked about in the past, but are also things
00:18:29 ◼ ► that they could have written more clearly in the DMA. Indeed. And you know, I do find it so funny
00:18:34 ◼ ► in every sense of the word that in the European union, it is apparently okay. And I don't mean
00:18:40 ◼ ► that to be snarky. I genuinely didn't know this, but it's apparently okay to just kind of make
00:18:45 ◼ ► these hand wavy rules and just expect people to understand it and work and work on it. And
00:18:51 ◼ ► that's very different than my perception, at least of the way the U S works, where everything is
00:18:55 ◼ ► extraordinarily specific and, and you know, any T's are crossed and I's are dotted. I feel like
00:19:00 ◼ ► I'm implying that the EU is, is not doing a good job. That's not what I mean. It's just that it's,
00:19:06 ◼ ► it seems like the EU very much wants these companies to comply with the very clear spirit
00:19:12 ◼ ► of the law. And that is just not a thing here in the States. Like it's, it's the law is the law.
00:19:17 ◼ ► There's the spirit of the law. Doesn't matter. All that matters is what are the words on the paper?
00:19:21 ◼ ► I think our laws are also extremely vague, but maybe there's a little bit more horse trading
00:19:25 ◼ ► upfront with the powers that be to make sure that everyone agrees before something is passed,
00:19:30 ◼ ► what it's going to take to comply with it, which is helpful, but apparently that didn't take place
00:19:33 ◼ ► here. I just think they, I mean, the things they wrote in, I think, I think Apple and all the
00:19:38 ◼ ► other companies probably are not in compliance with the letter of the DMA, but the spirit is
00:19:44 ◼ ► beyond that. And I re I really feel like this could have been avoided. Like it's, it's easy
00:19:48 ◼ ► to comply in these annoying ways when you don't specifically anticipate these kinds of people call
00:19:54 ◼ ► it malicious compliance. It depends on how, how, uh, pessimistic do you want to be about the
00:19:59 ◼ ► companies? You could just be saying they're, they're doing what they think they need to do.
00:20:02 ◼ ► And it's not actually a malicious because it's poorly written, but it could also be malicious,
00:20:11 ◼ ► but I think there are actual violations of the letter of it. So here, this is from the,
00:20:14 ◼ ► the EC's press release, uh, specifically about Apple. A few highlights that are super interesting
00:20:25 ◼ ► it's the commission has opened proceedings against Apple regarding their measures to comply with their
00:20:28 ◼ ► obligations to enable end users to easily uninstall any software applications on iOS, easily change
00:20:34 ◼ ► the default settings on iOS and prompt users with choice screens, which most effectively and easily
00:20:38 ◼ ► allow them to select alternative default service such as browser search engine or iPhones. If you
00:20:43 ◼ ► watch that nine hour, like feedback session, so much of the feedback is complaining about minute
00:20:48 ◼ ► details about the screen where you get to pick what your browser is. And they have the people
00:20:53 ◼ ► who are giving me feedback have legitimate complaints, but honestly, this is not, this is
00:20:57 ◼ ► not the meat of the problem with Apple's anti-competitive behavior. Like there's like how,
00:21:02 ◼ ► like this is not be, not being able to choose the default browser. Okay. They should be able to,
00:21:07 ◼ ► but let's not litigate the minutia of the selection screen for seven hours. That is missing
00:21:13 ◼ ► the forest of the trees entirely. I don't think they're wrong. They had some good points, but
00:21:17 ◼ ► the amount of time dedicated to that blows my mind. The same thing with the non-compliance,
00:21:22 ◼ ► these things of like changing default settings and the choice screens and uninstalling. And it's
00:21:26 ◼ ► like, well, you made it possible. It's not that possible. They're just so picky about the details
00:21:30 ◼ ► of those things. Not important. Here's the big one lurking. Like it's not even one of the major
00:21:35 ◼ ► points to say, Oh, and by the way, also this, and this is the final bullet point. Apple's new fee
00:21:39 ◼ ► structure and other terms and conditions for alternative app stores and distribution of apps
00:21:43 ◼ ► from the web may be defeating the purpose of its obligations under article six, four of the DMA.
00:21:48 ◼ ► That's the meat of it. That's what we talked about. When we talked about this, Apple has
00:21:52 ◼ ► essentially complied in a way that makes alternative app stores forces alternative app stores to not be
00:21:58 ◼ ► more attractive than what they already, what Apple already offers. Like by imposing these fees,
00:22:06 ◼ ► you're probably not going to be able to do anything better than we do. Cause we're going
00:22:09 ◼ ► to be still taking a huge amount of your money and whatever is left, maybe you can get a little
00:22:12 ◼ ► bit money. And basically in the end, you can't be any better than us. So it's, Oh, it's competition,
00:22:17 ◼ ► but we've arranged financial things that make it so that your alternative app store can't really
00:22:24 ◼ ► be that much better than ours. And in fact may actually be worse and will certainly be way more
00:22:29 ◼ ► work for you. Yeah. That may be defeating the purpose of its obligations under blah, blah. Yeah.
00:22:33 ◼ ► You should have written that in to like, Oh, and by the way, Apple, you can't ask for all the money
00:22:37 ◼ ► from the alternative app stores. You're making them economically unviable unless you have a
00:22:41 ◼ ► spite store like Epic. Right. And you just remove their account. That's not like they spend so much
00:22:47 ◼ ► time talking about, Oh, it's not fair that, uh, that, uh, you know, the selection of, uh, uh, of
00:22:53 ◼ ► browsers on the browser choice screen are browsers that have a large number of sales in the current
00:22:58 ◼ ► app store. What if someone has a third party browser that's not in the current app store and
00:23:01 ◼ ► yada yada. I'm like, yeah, that's a valid point, but geez, that is not the big one. So the fact
00:23:08 ◼ ► that they throw this in there, like, yeah, the whole thing, they don't say the core technology
00:23:11 ◼ ► fee. They don't say the whole percentage and the, you know, all the other things we've talked about
00:23:15 ◼ ► monetarily with alternative app stores and sideloading. They don't say that specifically,
00:23:19 ◼ ► but they vaguely allude to that. And it's like, Oh yeah, Apple. As a side note, the entire foundation
00:23:24 ◼ ► of your DMA compliance may be considered to be non-compliant. So get ready, but don't worry
00:23:29 ◼ ► because we're going to figure out what the conclusion of those proceedings that they open
00:23:33 ◼ ► today. We're going to figure out the, those conclusions in, let me check my notes. Oh, a year.
00:23:38 ◼ ► Oh yeah. So this is just, uh, this is from six colors that, uh, Jason pulled from an interview
00:23:42 ◼ ► with, uh, uh, Margaret of SDR and in a Reuters interview, this was before the whole non-compliance
00:23:49 ◼ ► investigation was announced. Uh, and she said, if the new Apple fee structure will de facto not make
00:23:54 ◼ ► it in any way attractive to use the benefits of the DMA, that is the kind of thing we'll be
00:23:58 ◼ ► investigating. Yeah. That's why you should have written the DMA differently because if you had
00:24:02 ◼ ► asked, Hey, is it possible for Apple to seemingly comply with this, but just to make it not
00:24:07 ◼ ► attractive at all to have an alternative app store, we all would have raised our hands. And we,
00:24:15 ◼ ► It's like, Oh God. Anyway, so yeah, 12 months, uh, think, uh, government moves slowly. We'll see how
00:24:22 ◼ ► this goes. And it's not just Apple, it's Apple meta and Google and it's multiple threads. And so
00:24:27 ◼ ► the fact that apparently nobody was able to comply with this to the satisfaction of the EU,
00:24:31 ◼ ► and they're all being investigated. Some of that is on the EU and poorly written guidelines.
00:24:36 ◼ ► So anonymous writes to us with regard to the DOJ suit here in the States and iOS messages app versus
00:24:42 ◼ ► third party messages app. So this anonymous person writes regarding this bit from the DOJ complaint,
00:24:48 ◼ ► and this is a quote from there. Apple prohibits third party developers from incorporating other
00:24:51 ◼ ► important features into their messaging apps as well. For example, third party messaging apps
00:24:55 ◼ ► cannot continue operating in the background when the app is closed, which impairs functionality
00:24:59 ◼ ► like message delivery confirmation. We talked about this last episode and we're like, there's
00:25:12 ◼ ► uh, it says, okay, those words, even though they are just vague and ridiculous, like obviously
00:25:18 ◼ ► third party messaging apps can continue operating the background, just like any iOS app can subject
00:25:22 ◼ ► to constraints, yada, yada, and message delivery confirmation can be done through push notification.
00:25:26 ◼ ► So on its face, that sentence is not true and makes no sense, but that's just in the complaint.
00:25:32 ◼ ► That's not the court case, right? So this feedback, and we got multiple pieces of this feedback. I
00:25:36 ◼ ► picked one of the most succinct ones is basically saying when you read that, what's under lurking
00:25:41 ◼ ► underneath those two sentences is this, and this is actually a, an issue. Yeah. So I didn't think
00:25:48 ◼ ► it was an issue at all. You know, this is why push notifications exist, but no, it's an issue. And
00:25:51 ◼ ► this is one of the comments that we got to convince me. So back to this anonymous feedback,
00:25:56 ◼ ► I work in a major messaging app and I can provide some more information from an engineering
00:26:00 ◼ ► perspective. iMessage is not a single app, but a set of processes and services with escalated
00:26:04 ◼ ► or reduced privileges. Other apps are forced to be in a single process. This is a severe limitation,
00:26:09 ◼ ► especially for security and performance. Apple's quote unquote blast door low privilege
00:26:14 ◼ ► privilege process handles all untrusted and high risk data. For example, media attachments in a
00:26:20 ◼ ► messages only iMessage can do that. Competitor messengers are forced to either compromise security
00:26:25 ◼ ► and performance or compromise on features. For example, support fewer attachment types.
00:26:33 ◼ ► messages much better than any of the competitors can do. You had mentioned APS APNS on the show,
00:26:38 ◼ ► Apple push notification service, but there's much more to do for each incoming message than
00:26:42 ◼ ► just displaying a notification. For example, the best receiver experience for the best receiver
00:26:50 ◼ ► confirmations. This is currently either severely limited or not possible at all for third-party
00:26:54 ◼ ► apps. Also check the permissions for the messages app in iOS settings messages. I see three items
00:27:06 ◼ ► and I think this is with regard to like privacy features and you know, oh can you share your
00:27:10 ◼ ► location, can you share this, can you share that. Anyway back to anonymous, and did you notice that
00:27:14 ◼ ► messages does not ask you for location access? Have you seen a warning that messages has been
00:27:17 ◼ ► able to access your entire photo library for the past 10 months? Probably not. I could go on and on,
00:27:22 ◼ ► but the point is that messaging really is an example of Apple's anti-competitive behavior.
00:27:29 ◼ ► and maybe because of Michelle, who knows, but anyways I really didn't think this was a big deal
00:27:33 ◼ ► and as I read more and more into this and there were a couple other pieces of feedback like John
00:27:36 ◼ ► said that were very similar, I've been convinced that no this is legitimately kind of gross.
00:27:42 ◼ ► Yeah this is one of the things about the DOJ trial, I'll try to emphasize last week and I'll
00:27:50 ◼ ► technically inaccurate and poorly worded and all that other stuff, the complaint is not
00:27:54 ◼ ► the court case right? And during the court case, whatever they choose to attack Apple for,
00:27:59 ◼ ► there is ample examples of Apple preferencing its stuff over third-party stuff. It's easy to find
00:28:08 ◼ ► that stuff. We could name stuff off the top of their head. The things they picked on the
00:28:11 ◼ ► complaint seem weird to us, but even lurking under something as simple as this where it tries to
00:28:19 ◼ ► we're like well that's not true, they can't operate in the background, well that's not true right?
00:28:22 ◼ ► But what is true and what we could have told them and they could have written a sentence better is
00:28:29 ◼ ► here is just a list of some of them, there's even more from the other people who sent the
00:28:33 ◼ ► feedback of like look at all the things that messages can do that we literally can't do
00:28:35 ◼ ► because we're not allowed to. And what we would say is like yeah duh everyone knows that Apple
00:28:39 ◼ ► privileges its own apps on its operating system right? Of course to win this lawsuit, the DOJ has
00:28:45 ◼ ► to prove that Apple has monopoly power before they can then go after them for all the many,
00:28:50 ◼ ► many things that Apple does to privilege its own apps over third-party apps. And you have to sort
00:28:54 ◼ ► of show that it is you know it doing that is fine if they're not a monopoly. So they have to say you
00:28:59 ◼ ► are you do have monopoly power in whatever market we define. If we successfully prove that it should
00:29:04 ◼ ► be so easy to pick however many small things you can pick that Apple does that privilege its stuff
00:29:08 ◼ ► over everybody else's and this message example is just one. Now how significant is that privileging?
00:29:13 ◼ ► You know how important is it? What kind of remedy is required in response to that? Does it address
00:29:18 ◼ ► any of the real issues that we've talked about in terms of competitive app stores and Apple taking
00:29:23 ◼ ► cuts of money and everything goes through the store and having control? Like those are much
00:29:27 ◼ ► larger issues this DOJ thing doesn't even seem to want to tackle. But if the DOJ is able to prove
00:29:33 ◼ ► that Apple has monopoly power it should be trivially easy for them to find a whole bunch of
00:29:38 ◼ ► quote unquote little things like this because we know Apple does this all the time. And you know
00:29:42 ◼ ► again we see this and we say yeah that's just the way it is it's their platform and they get
00:29:45 ◼ ► privileges but some of that stuff in theory may be illegal if Apple has monopoly power.
00:29:50 ◼ ► Steven: Speaking of monopoly power apparently it is sort of kind of my fault that the DOJ antitrust
00:29:56 ◼ ► suit is happening in New Jersey because apparently this was a thing with fake teeth and I have a
00:30:01 ◼ ► couple of those. So the hell of an intro yeah well it virtualized a couple of days ago. What
00:30:06 ◼ ► do artificial teeth have to do with the Department of Justice's massive lawsuit against Apple? Well
00:30:10 ◼ ► they may be one of the reasons why the DOJ decided to file its lawsuit in the state of New Jersey
00:30:14 ◼ ► instead of today say Virginia hooray or Washington DC like it did for Google and Microsoft. So
00:30:19 ◼ ► apparently William Kovaczic, former FTC chair noted that the Third Circuit Court of Appeals which
00:30:26 ◼ ► covers the New Jersey District Court has quote some pretty good law for plaintiffs on monopolization
00:30:31 ◼ ► issues quote he goes to point to a 2005 decision by the Third Circuit in favor of the government
00:30:50 ◼ ► Rebecca Hall Allensworth antitrust professor and associate dean for research at Vanderbilt Law
00:30:54 ◼ ► School notes that the Dent Supply case may prove particularly useful for the government's argument
00:30:58 ◼ ► for Apple's market dominance. While she says courts often consider monopoly power to be more
00:31:02 ◼ ► in the range of 90 percent market share Dent Supply had 75 to 80 percent market share based on revenue
00:31:07 ◼ ► and 67 percent based on units and then she said that I'm guessing is at least part of why they
00:31:12 ◼ ► filed there. For people unfamiliar with our weird US law system what what they're talking about here
00:31:17 ◼ ► is I think what's known as forum shopping or this is probably a similar phase I'm forgetting
00:31:22 ◼ ► where basically when you're going to have a lawsuit you can choose where you want to file
00:31:27 ◼ ► the lawsuit especially if it's like a federal lawsuit they can choose so they filed in New
00:31:30 ◼ ► Jersey. Apple's not headquarters in New Jersey the government you know the the capital of the
00:31:34 ◼ ► United States is not New Jersey right it's just why did they pick New Jersey this may be why
00:31:39 ◼ ► that you always that's why all these like patent stuff gets filed like East Texas because they have
00:31:43 ◼ ► judges in that court system that are friendly to stupid patents right so yeah why is it filed in
00:31:53 ◼ ► Indeed then Gavin Lang writes I am currently a master of public policy student interested in the
00:31:59 ◼ ► regulation of the technology industry and I found your conversation in episode 597 about the DOJ
00:32:04 ◼ ► lawsuit against Apple very interesting last year senator senator Bennett of Colorado issued
00:32:08 ◼ ► S 1671 the digital platform commission act of 2023 essentially it would create a new regulatory body
00:32:15 ◼ ► equivalent to the FDA with the authority to regulate tech companies the stated purpose of
00:32:19 ◼ ► this bill is to address two primary issues among others with federal regulation in the tech industry
00:32:23 ◼ ► by allocating significant bureaucratic discretion to the commission number one the tech industry
00:32:29 ◼ ► iterates so quickly that it is impossible for congress to pass the laws quickly enough to keep
00:32:33 ◼ ► up adequately with these companies and two there is not a culture of highly technical employees in
00:32:38 ◼ ► the federal government or in congress to craft policy that appropriately addresses the uniqueness
00:32:43 ◼ ► of the tech industry the commission would take it would include a quote-unquote code council staffed
00:32:48 ◼ ► by technical experts nonprofits academics and representatives from companies who own the
00:32:52 ◼ ► platforms this helps to solve many of the issues you noted such as the federal government often
00:32:57 ◼ ► having trouble defining what a market is in the industry to address this concern the commission
00:33:02 ◼ ► would be required to enter into an MOU a memorandum of understanding with the FTC and DOJ to assist
00:33:07 ◼ ► them in enforcing current laws where there is overlap in jurisdiction I believe the most
00:33:12 ◼ ► effective way for the federal government to approach the regulation of the tech industry
00:33:14 ◼ ► would be to create a new agency dedicated to creating a comprehensive regulatory regime
00:33:19 ◼ ► left unsaid here as I said when that bill went nowhere um you know uh congress gonna congress
00:33:25 ◼ ► anyway uh this is one one bit of feedback I got from the last episode of me saying that it's uh
00:33:29 ◼ ► the the how preferable it is to be able to affirmatively make a law of saying what you want
00:33:35 ◼ ► and I think I did mention regulation several times but maybe I was not didn't emphasize it enough
00:33:45 ◼ ► that one of the things you can do one of the things congress can do uh is pass laws that create
00:33:50 ◼ ► regulatory bodies and then it is and abuse the law imbues those regulatory bodies with the power
00:33:56 ◼ ► to regulate the industries they control until we're helping us get control the government and
00:34:00 ◼ ► tell you that the EPA can't control uh people polluting in rivers but anyway setting that aside
00:34:04 ◼ ► um we have things like the FDA and the EPA that are regulatory bodies who are imbued by laws with
00:34:11 ◼ ► the power to regulate the industries that they control and so every time the FDA determines
00:34:16 ◼ ► whether something is safe or unsafe or whatever make some new guidelines for poultry or whatever
00:34:20 ◼ ► you know whatever they're doing it's not like you have to pass a new law through congress every time
00:34:24 ◼ ► these regulatory bodies are empowered to do that and so they can move much more nimbly and swiftly
00:34:29 ◼ ► the the European Commission from a US perspective looks like a regulatory body right they're not you
00:34:35 ◼ ► know voting on and passing laws in the EU in the same way that congress passes laws that apply to
00:34:40 ◼ ► the US they are a regulatory body that is tasked with regulating commerce I guess with European
00:34:45 ◼ ► Commission or whatever anyway they're currently looking at tech sector and they're passing whatever
00:34:49 ◼ ► their system is I'm sure it's different than ours but it looks to us much more like a regulatory body
00:34:52 ◼ ► so it's not like you have to have individual tailored new laws every time you want to change
00:34:56 ◼ ► something we can and do make regulatory bodies that regulate all parts of life in the US with
00:35:02 ◼ ► some success I would say things like the FAA FDA even the EPA despite my earlier snark I think have
00:35:08 ◼ ► been shown to be useful and partially successful things within our government so a bill like this
00:35:15 ◼ ► or even something that expands the I mean I wouldn't expand like the the FTC or whatever to
00:35:20 ◼ ► cover this but anyway I'm saying is it doesn't have to be a new law every single time we can
00:35:24 ◼ ► actually have regulatory bodies all right we have breaking news as of earlier today do do do do do
00:35:32 ◼ ► WWDC has been announced I lost bet with myself it is actually Marco's birthday week which I should
00:35:38 ◼ ► have guessed because it always is no that's the thing it usually isn't it hasn't covered my
00:35:42 ◼ ► birthday which is June 11th it hasn't covered June 11th for like seven or eight years it's been a
00:35:47 ◼ ► while oh I feel like it always then abutted your birthday one way or another yeah it's always the
00:35:51 ◼ ► week before I thought it would be the what the second or third or whatever it was that Monday
00:35:55 ◼ ► I don't have a calendar in front of me and turns out nope it's June 10 to 14 and it's going to be
00:35:59 ◼ ► just like the last couple of years a special event on Monday June 10 and you can sign up to
00:36:07 ◼ ► get a free ticket to go to that which I have done I honestly don't know if I will go even if I do get
00:36:13 ◼ ► a ticket I probably would have I got a press pass but if I get a regular schmo ticket I don't know
00:36:17 ◼ ► if I would bother because it's considerable expense and I don't know we'll see Marco did
00:36:21 ◼ ► you even know that this was a thing given how busy you've been and if so did you sign up I did indeed
00:36:26 ◼ ► sign up we'll see you know we'll see what happens WWDC for me is always fun even though you know
00:36:34 ◼ ► business wise I shouldn't be too excited about Apple stuff recently because of all this court
00:36:40 ◼ ► stuff and it's putting a big damper on their image for me as a developer and everything that's all
00:36:44 ◼ ► true I also just love their stuff and I and WWDC is always a really good time for me it's always
00:36:51 ◼ ► a very motivating time as well like I always am there and I get all jazzed up and all motivated
00:36:56 ◼ ► to just go do all the new stuff for overcast that I need to do and so it's it's good for that as well
00:37:02 ◼ ► so even though I I continue to have conflicting feelings about how Apple treats the App Store
00:37:09 ◼ ► and their relationship with developers I still generally maintain that that's a problem with a
00:37:17 ◼ ► very small number of people at the top and WWDC is a chance for you to see all the work and interact
00:37:24 ◼ ► with all the other people in the company most of whom have I would say healthier views of of their
00:37:29 ◼ ► relationship with developers and so so like it's the time when I get to feel really good about what
00:37:36 ◼ ► they're doing and about what I'm doing as a developer on their platforms. Indeed so yeah I
00:37:40 ◼ ► mean I've signed up as well we'll see what happens John I'm sure that you signed up to leave your
00:37:45 ◼ ► house for any reason. I did I've been trying to go to WWDC ever since there's been an Apple Park.
00:37:50 ◼ ► You did sign up? I always sign up every year. What? Haven't you listened to me I've been so
00:37:54 ◼ ► annoyed that I haven't been able to go because I'm like I really want to go to one at Apple Park I've
00:37:57 ◼ ► never well I haven't been to Apple Park but officially I've never been there for an Apple
00:38:03 ◼ ► event let's say that and so yeah I absolutely want to attend WWDC at Apple Park because I have never
00:38:09 ◼ ► attended WWDC at Apple Park. I loved going to WWDC in San Francisco I didn't like the travel but I
00:38:13 ◼ ► loved going to it I even mostly liked going to San Jose wasn't as good but still fun so yeah I put my
00:38:20 ◼ ► hat in the ring to hopefully get a ticket this year despite missing out and to be fair to Apple
00:38:26 ◼ ► I was invited to go the year my son graduated from high school and the reason I remember that is
00:38:30 ◼ ► because I had to decline because I had to go to his graduation didn't have to but I chose to go
00:38:34 ◼ ► to his graduation rather than attend WWDC because they literally overlapped and it was painful for
00:38:38 ◼ ► me to have to say thank you so much I invited with a press pass so thank you so much for the
00:38:42 ◼ ► invitation but I unfortunately have to decline because my son is graduating high school so I
00:38:45 ◼ ► went to my son's high school graduation and I was never invited to WWDC again. Was that 21 I want to
00:38:52 ◼ ► say is that right? He's a sophomore in college now so I don't know do the math. Yeah well I don't want
00:38:57 ◼ ► to do that math right now but I think that I think you and I both got relatively late invites which
00:39:01 ◼ ► is fine I mean I'll take it over no invite but at that point like I think Michaela still wasn't
00:39:06 ◼ ► vaccinated and so I don't want to get on a plane and and you obviously had a much bigger thing to
00:39:11 ◼ ► worry about than WWDC and yeah since then we've been ghosted which is sad but it's okay. Yeah but
00:39:16 ◼ ► anyway I'm not thinking of getting a press pass I'm like I just want like one of the regular lottery
00:39:20 ◼ ► things which and also to be fair to Apple I was lucky enough to get a lottery driven ticket to
00:39:26 ◼ ► WWDC in San Francisco and San Jose a lot more than should be allowed by chance so I'm not going to
00:39:32 ◼ ► say that I've been deprived I absolutely haven't but all I'm saying is that I would really like to
00:39:36 ◼ ► go to at least one WWDC at Apple Park so fingers crossed for this year. Yeah man how wild would it
00:39:42 ◼ ► be if we do all end up at WWDC one way or the other this year that'd be pretty cool so yeah so
00:39:48 ◼ ► we'll see what happens Greg Joswiak did tweet it's going to be capital A absolutely capital I
00:39:54 ◼ ► incredible which I really don't like reading into these things but that seems pretty on the nose.
00:39:58 ◼ ► You don't need to read into that yeah exactly that is as upfront as it could possibly be yep
00:40:04 ◼ ► uh and I don't I didn't uh look at the official WWDC site I don't think they make any even uh
00:40:11 ◼ ► faints towards AI stuff but of course we all know the rumors have been AI stuff this is the year
00:40:15 ◼ ► about we talked about it in the very first episode of 2024 this is the year Apple sprinkles AI saw us
00:40:19 ◼ ► and everything right and so here's Greg Joswiak absolutely 100% confirming that uh this WWDC
00:40:25 ◼ ► AI is going to be a big thing so just in case you were wondering if those rumors are true because
00:40:29 ◼ ► you know sometimes we have these rumors that go on for months and months and then Apple like has
00:40:33 ◼ ► to do like strategic leaks to undercut them like when we're all there was all these rumors of
00:40:37 ◼ ► hardware at WWDC and Apple basically had to say there's going to be no hardware at WWDC like to
00:40:42 ◼ ► just make sure we all aren't disappointed on the day well this is the opposite of that they're
00:40:45 ◼ ► saying AI stuff it's coming so I'm excited for that. We are brought to you this week by Factor.
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00:42:42 ◼ ► to factor for sponsoring atp we're gonna do a little bit of car related stuff this isn't
00:42:51 ◼ ► really neutral this is this is technology that's car adjacent or car adjacent technology you know
00:42:56 ◼ ► what i mean so don't don't immediately skip to the next chapter give us a chance you might actually
00:43:00 ◼ ► like it and the first thing we have to talk about is that people are getting fed up with all the
00:43:04 ◼ ► useless tech in their cars this was from july of 2023 apparently that jd power which is a i don't
00:43:13 ◼ ► know they kind of do surveys and stuff of car owners like user research and stuff yeah yeah
00:43:18 ◼ ► so the verge writes for the first time in 28 years of jd powers car owner survey there's a consecutive
00:43:23 ◼ ► year-over-year decline in satisfaction with most of the ire directed toward in-car infotainment
00:43:28 ◼ ► the overall satisfaction amongst car owners is 845 on a 1,000 point scale a decrease of two whole
00:43:36 ◼ ► points from a year ago and three points lower than in 2021 only 56 of owners prefer to use their
00:43:41 ◼ ► vehicles built-in system to play audio down from 70 in 2020 less than half of owners said they like
00:43:46 ◼ ► using their cars native controls for navigation voice recognition or to make phone calls yeah i
00:43:51 ◼ ► mean i i know all the electric car people hi marco are going to come out and be like oh no the
00:43:55 ◼ ► electric car people get it they're so much better but really yeah anyway for for all of us regular
00:44:02 ◼ ► people with regular cars i can tell you that i have never used an in-car infotainment that was
00:44:07 ◼ ► even half as good as carplay and my volkswagen is pretty good and i actually really like my bmws
00:44:14 ◼ ► even though even when i bought it it was relatively aged but that being said it's just not as good as
00:44:20 ◼ ► carplay and so i am not surprised that these auto manufacturers who really don't know what they're
00:44:24 ◼ ► doing when it comes to software when they try software i'm not surprised it doesn't go terribly
00:44:28 ◼ ► well they know what they're doing when it comes to pinching pennies though and i feel like that's
00:44:32 ◼ ► very true the headline here is not so much that the score was awful or that the people like don't
00:44:36 ◼ ► like the native stuff and prefer their phone stuff the the headline is in 28 years of doing this
00:44:41 ◼ ► stupid survey and i don't put too much stock in their surveys but either way in 28 years this is
00:44:45 ◼ ► the first year-over-year decline right and so that that shows it's not just like well it fluctuates
00:44:51 ◼ ► from year to year and who cares or whatever that's a long run with people generally saying each year
00:44:55 ◼ ► they're a little bit more satisfied because car you know the tech inside their car would get better
00:44:59 ◼ ► or whatever now a year over year decline with most of them citing dissatisfaction with the infotainment
00:45:05 ◼ ► i see that squarely on the automakers of like you say case a not being good at this but b
00:45:10 ◼ ► seeing as we've discussed and we're about to discuss further uh dollar signs when they say
00:45:15 ◼ ► oh we can get rid of all these buttons and stuff and just put everything on touch screens and yeah
00:45:20 ◼ ► we're not very good at making touch screens but it'll save us so much money and it's futuristic
00:45:25 ◼ ► people will love it and the you know the fancy electric cars that actually do have native in car
00:45:30 ◼ ► stuff even though casey still wishes they had carplay um they're they're like mostly a rounding
00:45:35 ◼ ► error with the exception of tesla the model y sells in huge numbers right and maybe that's
00:45:39 ◼ ► trying to bring up the average for everybody else but i can tell you outside of tesla and the other
00:45:44 ◼ ► good ev makers infotainment situation on cars that regular people buy has been getting worse and worse
00:45:55 ◼ ► i will absolutely admit and concede that the teslas of the world and the ravines of the world
00:46:02 ◼ ► have way better infotainment than pretty much anything else that i've seen for me i still don't
00:46:08 ◼ ► particularly care for it and i still would vastly prefer carplay vastly prefer carplay but they are
00:46:15 ◼ ► definitely the best of the breed if you're not considering android auto or carplay but they're
00:46:19 ◼ ► also in tesla in particular is one of the largest vendors for this next item right so european crash
00:46:25 ◼ ► tester uh euro ncap i mean i don't know how to summarize it other than they're doing the lord's
00:46:29 ◼ ► work so they they say that car make car makers must bring back physical controls or they will
00:46:36 ◼ ► pay the price in terms of ratings so this was covered on arztechnica earlier this month
00:46:42 ◼ ► matthew avery who is the director of strategic development for the automotive safety organization
00:46:47 ◼ ► european new car assessment program or euro ncap says that the overuse of touch screens is an
00:46:52 ◼ ► industry-wide problem amen with almost every vehicle maker moving key controls onto central
00:46:58 ◼ ► touch screens preach obliging drivers to take their eyes off the road and raising the risk
00:47:02 ◼ ► of distraction crashes uh-huh new euro ncap's tests due in 2026 will encourage manufacturers
00:47:09 ◼ ► to use separate physical controls for basic functions in an intuitive manner limiting eyes
00:47:13 ◼ ► off-road time and therefore promoting safer driving so euro ncap wants to see the physical
00:47:18 ◼ ► controls for turn signals hazard lights windshield wipers the horn and any sos features like the
00:47:24 ◼ ► european union's e-call feature uh euro ncap is not a government regulator so it has no power to
00:47:28 ◼ ► mandate the car makers use physical physical controls for these functions but a five-star
00:47:33 ◼ ► safety score from euro ncap is a strong selling point similar to the iahs or the insurance
00:47:38 ◼ ► institute for highway safety's coveted top safety pick program here in the u.s and it is likely this
00:47:42 ◼ ► pressure will be effective just i'm here for this i'm so incredibly here for this this is one of the
00:47:49 ◼ ► great things about it not being a government regulator so they're they're kind of making
00:47:54 ◼ ► these assertions like there's no sort of burden of proof to say well but is it actually safer to have
00:48:00 ◼ ► physical controls versus test controls what have you tested to show this is the case and all sorts
00:48:04 ◼ ► of things and i know that we've talked about stories in the past where people have done
00:48:07 ◼ ► studies in this to show that it is safer but in general you look at this you're like oh common
00:48:10 ◼ ► sense dictates that yeah you can use a physical control without looking at it much more easily
00:48:14 ◼ ► you can use touch screen without looking at it even if things never move unless you get touchscreen
00:48:17 ◼ ► even if they're always in the same place you can't really feel for the location one of the things
00:48:20 ◼ ► that i thought about uh when uh considering the story was like you know we're just just trying to
00:48:24 ◼ ► get out of winter here although it's still a little ice on my morning walks with the dog but anyway
00:48:29 ◼ ► um in theory spring is coming but during the whole winter uh in my wife's car which has heated seats
00:48:35 ◼ ► i wear gloves in the car big winter gloves because my hands are always freezing anyway uh i can not
00:48:43 ◼ ► only turn the seat heaters to off low or high for either one of the front seats with my gloves on
00:48:50 ◼ ► without looking i can also tell if they are currently off low or high for both seats in the
00:48:58 ◼ ► dark without looking at them with my winter gloves on with my big giant winter gloves on and you know
00:49:03 ◼ ► why because they both have rocker switches that are level when the thing is off tilted forward
00:49:08 ◼ ► when it's low and tilted back when it's high i can literally feel for that without looking at it ever
00:49:14 ◼ ► i've never looked at those switches why would i look at them because they're down there they're
00:49:17 ◼ ► like in front of the the stick shift right that's where they are on the like central console so when
00:49:22 ◼ ► i look at this i'm like i don't have to see your 17 scientific surveys to support your new law
00:49:28 ◼ ► that the government is saying that you have to use physical controls when they say physical
00:49:32 ◼ ► controls uh allow drivers to take their road of their eyes off the road less i look at that and
00:49:37 ◼ ► say yes that is obviously true now i'm not saying they shouldn't study this they should the more
00:49:42 ◼ ► evidence we have to say we know we didn't just assume this is true we actually tested it but the
00:49:46 ◼ ► common sense in me says yeah in my experience that's true common sense to me says it's true
00:49:52 ◼ ► my experience using touch screens which at this point is vast says that it's true right uh and the
00:49:58 ◼ ► fact that they're not making a law but they're just saying hey do what you want but we are a
00:50:02 ◼ ► respected organization that rates cars based on their safety and we have decided as part of our
00:50:06 ◼ ► ratings which are not law they're not binding right we're not a government we're not forcing
00:50:10 ◼ ► you to do anything you do what you want but we think that yeah here at euro ncap that if you
00:50:15 ◼ ► don't do this you're going to get dinged and you're not going to get a five star score and
00:50:19 ◼ ► the same thing we have those same things in the us where it's a thing that is respected that people
00:50:24 ◼ ► look up the crash safety ratings we also have government things to do that as well but like the
00:50:28 ◼ ► the uh it's not legally binding you don't have to do what they tell you we don't stop you from
00:50:33 ◼ ► selling a car if it doesn't get a five star crash rating you can still sell it but know that
00:50:36 ◼ ► people are going to look this up and they're going to see that your car got a three star instead of a
00:50:40 ◼ ► five star and maybe they're going to pick a competitor car which is why as the story says
00:50:43 ◼ ► even though this is not a law or a government regulatory body this kind of pressure will likely
00:50:48 ◼ ► be effective even on us car makers because they're not going to make a separate car for europe with
00:50:53 ◼ ► physical controls and then one for the us with just a touch screen they're going to make one car
00:50:57 ◼ ► to save again to save costs like they don't want to make two different cars for different
00:51:00 ◼ ► distance this so this will help us in the same way that california's more stringent like emissions
00:51:05 ◼ ► laws tend to help like all cars in the us kind of sorta depending on how annoying the car maker is
00:51:09 ◼ ► about making a california only model so i read this and i'm like you go euro n cap because i
00:51:15 ◼ ► 100 agree with this and i think the reason car makers are doing it is to save money and i think
00:51:20 ◼ ► it's a terrible decision and i think it is unsafe but more importantly it's annoying yep couldn't
00:51:25 ◼ ► agree more it's just there's certain things that you should be able to do without looking away from
00:51:31 ◼ ► the road i think adjusting the temperature turn signals i could even say that hazards i i could
00:51:36 ◼ ► get behind not having having to look at in order to use i think that's more like hazards or the
00:51:41 ◼ ► type of thing where maybe the uh the touch screen is dead because it's not like an essential like
00:51:46 ◼ ► you know what i mean and so you need i would say you need a physical thing because like if you had
00:51:49 ◼ ► some kind of accident or whatever and you gotta turn the hazards on because you're off the road
00:51:52 ◼ ► and your touch screen is dead it should be a physical button for that not that you need to
00:51:55 ◼ ► see it when you're driving that's why that's required in the us yeah but yeah i think most
00:51:59 ◼ ► of these you know most of the things that that this that this um you know that this european
00:52:04 ◼ ► body is requesting are very reasonable you know turn signals horn like that that all is very
00:52:08 ◼ ► reasonable and i think really the only car as far as i know that that has not already complied with
00:52:13 ◼ ► that is tesla's new steering wheel designs for for many of their cars now i thought um john weren't
00:52:18 ◼ ► there some ferraris that had turn signals on the wheel or something like that yeah the the new
00:52:22 ◼ ► ferraris have uh well so here's the thing i don't know the details of this but it says physical
00:52:26 ◼ ► controls the controls in the ferrari i think are capacitive touch but a lot of the like the the
00:52:31 ◼ ► the tesla ones i believe it's that stupid thing where the entire thing is a button and where you
00:52:36 ◼ ► have your finger on it you know we talked about it before like the whole thing does move so i think
00:52:40 ◼ ► tesla's might be compliant but it depends on when they say like physical controls do they mean it
00:52:45 ◼ ► has to be a stock or can it be a stupid button on your steering wheel yeah either way i i think this
00:52:50 ◼ ► is mostly currently aimed at tesla i mean i don't think many people are going to um change their
00:52:55 ◼ ► mind on their ferrari purchase because your end cap does not give it a full safety rating yeah and
00:52:59 ◼ ► and a ferrari to be clear does not care what you're saying about it because they don't need
00:53:04 ◼ ► to no one's cross shopping the ferrari and say but it doesn't have a five-star crash rating right
00:53:13 ◼ ► you know cars with touch controls largely um but you know like i think old tesla like you know the
00:53:20 ◼ ► the model s's that i had you know years ago and my current you know rivian they i think strike a
00:53:26 ◼ ► fairly good overall balance of there are stocks and buttons for some critical things and then a
00:53:34 ◼ ► lot of other stuff is on the touch screen i'm fine with that like and and i think what you know what
00:53:39 ◼ ► euro end cap is saying here is not all touch controls are bad what they're saying is there
00:53:45 ◼ ► are certain controls that are so important to safety and basic operation that they need to be
00:53:50 ◼ ► physical and the vehicles i've owned have had those controls be physical and it's i and i agree
00:53:57 ◼ ► that that is a very good balance um and that's that's part of the reason why i don't like you
00:54:01 ◼ ► know the modern direction tesla has gone because they're going a little further a little too far in
00:54:06 ◼ ► that direction from my taste um but i think we i think this is not like a massive shift in what we
00:54:12 ◼ ► have to do or what they want people to do i think this is a small course correction that mostly just
00:54:17 ◼ ► applies to tesla and not not many other makers well i mean it's like the thing we talked about
00:54:24 ◼ ► generations of cars where they have the climate controls on the touch screen and their customers
00:54:29 ◼ ► complained so much that they're changing out on all their models going forward but unfortunately
00:54:34 ◼ ► they just introduced a whole new line of like this year's model year crop of cars that have the old
00:54:38 ◼ ► system and so it's like no i know you're annoyed by it but we totally fixed this the not these cars
00:54:43 ◼ ► but yeah next time we show you a car uh and that stuff is not part of ncap they're not saying you
00:54:48 ◼ ► have to have climate controls according to this thing here right but but customers want that and
00:54:52 ◼ ► so customer feedback is also a way to make this happen like and it took however many years of vw
00:54:58 ◼ ► shipping cars with the climate controls and touch and it's not that much it's not it's only been for
00:55:03 ◼ ► the mark 8 uh gulfs as far as i understand and but it's also unlike the id4 and all their other
00:55:08 ◼ ► that's true but it's only been a couple of years it's it's been like one or two yeah but the reason
00:55:13 ◼ ► they get dinged toward is because they have the benefit of seeing every other car maker do this
00:55:18 ◼ ► and get complained about and they didn't learn from it says like you know these are recent models
00:55:22 ◼ ► right and you know climate controls and touch screen it's everywhere bmw does it on all their
00:55:26 ◼ ► new cars they are not going back on it like everybody does it you know and it remains to be
00:55:31 ◼ ► seen if anyone who complained about that or maybe they won't care because everyone just uses
00:55:34 ◼ ► automatic climate control and bmw but stuff like that i think falls into the category of
00:55:39 ◼ ► foolish cost savings or foolish attempt to be futuristic like i mean the the worst one for me
00:55:45 ◼ ► is aiming the aiming the air and the tesla's with that stupid interface they've always had oh yeah
00:55:49 ◼ ► james louise is just let me point a vent like it's just so much better in every possible way but you
00:55:55 ◼ ► got to save those two cents on the little you know or whatever it's 50 cents on the little moving vent
00:55:58 ◼ ► pieces just it drives me bonkers right so consumer feedback will give you some of this but apparently
00:56:04 ◼ ► consumer feedback isn't sufficient to to like you know to fix all the problems rapidly and this is
00:56:09 ◼ ► like like margaret said this is for the essential stuff i don't know what the details are but i i
00:56:13 ◼ ► really do think that things like turn signals being buttons on a steering wheel then the
00:56:18 ◼ ► steering wheel like you know turns and you have to kind of like find them it's just going to make
00:56:21 ◼ ► people either use their blinkers less frequently or less adeptly uh or not use them at all like
00:56:27 ◼ ► bmw drivers because the the stalk interface the turn signals the fact that the stalk is always in
00:56:32 ◼ ► the same place and doesn't move and you can just hit it like that is an amazing interface the stalk
00:56:36 ◼ ► interface return signals the traditional one where it stays up when you push it to go to the the
00:56:40 ◼ ► right and stays down when you push to go to the left that stalk interface has amazing ergonomics
00:56:45 ◼ ► it's so easy to do it's so unconscious it's so clear what you're in the process of doing the
00:56:52 ◼ ► little blinking light on the instrument cluster just to show the arrow where it's like it's tried
00:56:56 ◼ ► and true for a reason i would say the same thing by the way about round steering wheels car makers
00:57:00 ◼ ► if you're listening round is a good shape for a thing that rotates just fyi no one wants to make
00:57:04 ◼ ► round steering wheels anymore hopefully that will come around but we'll see i don't feel that
00:57:07 ◼ ► strongly about like flat bottomed wheels my volkswagen's uh wheel as a flat bottom and that's
00:57:12 ◼ ► it's fine like i'm not saying you're wrong for the record it's it's fine but but now they're flat
00:57:16 ◼ ► everywhere have you seen casey they're not flat bottom anymore like yours is a circle with a flat
00:57:20 ◼ ► bottom now they're all like hexagons or yeah no no i know i think my dad's corvette if i'm not
00:57:25 ◼ ► mistaken as a flat top and a flat bottom and yeah it does and they're getting even funky it's like
00:57:29 ◼ ► wheels man wheels but like i mean the big thing about this about picking like which controls need
00:57:34 ◼ ► to be physical much don't just brings up a thing that i brought up when we were talking about
00:57:37 ◼ ► touch screens years ago it's like okay why don't you just put the steering wheel on touch screen
00:57:41 ◼ ► and everyone's like well that's ridiculous steering wheel on the touch screen uh aside from
00:57:45 ◼ ► all the people think the cars are going to drive themselves no one would ever put the steering wheel
00:57:48 ◼ ► on touch screen but then a few years later tesla put the freaking gear selector on the touch screen
00:57:52 ◼ ► right well why not put the steering wheel on the touch screen so great everyone has their limit
00:57:56 ◼ ► it's like okay i'm with you right up until you put the steering wheel on the touch screen like well
00:57:59 ◼ ► good so now we know there is limit we're just arguing over where it is and i think your end cap
00:58:03 ◼ ► is going to help move that line back a little bit i sure hope so i don't know i i aaron's car has
00:58:09 ◼ ► you know climate control in the screen and it is fine but it is not fun to use like i i would much
00:58:17 ◼ ► rather be able to have a dial for the temperature and preferably for heated seats like a button or
00:58:22 ◼ ► a rocker or something like that uh both heated seats and wheel and temperature all of that is
00:58:27 ◼ ► on the touch screen and i really don't care for it and i mean and i mostly like her infotainment
00:58:32 ◼ ► it's pretty good and honestly the only time we use carplay is generally speaking if i'm driving
00:58:38 ◼ ► the car which is pretty rare you know she does occasionally use carplay but very infrequently she
00:58:43 ◼ ► generally just uses the infotainment and leaving aside the fact that it takes a calendar year to
00:58:47 ◼ ► start the infotainment it's actually pretty good um but i i absolutely am driven bananas by having
00:58:54 ◼ ► the hbac controls in the touchscreen i don't care for it at all it is so much nicer in my car to
00:59:02 ◼ ► just reach down to where the dial i know that where that dial will be and i just twist the
00:59:07 ◼ ► littlest bit and you can feel for it that's the important thing is people like oh but it's always
00:59:10 ◼ ► in the same place the touchscreen i know just where it will be okay that helps but you can't
00:59:13 ◼ ► feel for it like in the dark or to adjust to micro adjust your reach if you do a spur off by a little
00:59:19 ◼ ► bit well but you know in in defense of these controls on touch screens i've driven the model s
00:59:24 ◼ ► i've driven the rifio both of those have almost all of the hvac if not all of the hvac stuff
00:59:29 ◼ ► it actually i think both of them all the hvac stuff is on the touchscreen there i did have
00:59:32 ◼ ► some issues with with the model s um when that facebook designer took over and redid their whole
00:59:38 ◼ ► design and did things like hide the defroster inside of a menu but that was later in the ownership
00:59:44 ◼ ► of that car and the for the first few years of owning that car that was not a problem and it was
00:59:48 ◼ ► great i would caution you not to rule out the concept when it is possible to design a good one
00:59:54 ◼ ► you know in the sense that like if for instance suppose the iphone hadn't happened yet and we were
01:00:00 ◼ ► all using weird advanced versions of blackberries and they put out touchscreen things and it's like
01:00:07 ◼ ► well i touchscreen phones just don't work and the real problem might be that the touchscreen phone
01:00:14 ◼ ► that we had that we were accustomed to or that we had been exposed to was not a good touchscreen
01:00:18 ◼ ► phone or didn't have a good touchscreen design i think this is a bad example marco because we look
01:00:23 ◼ ► at our phones when we use them no but this this is not a bad example because you can account for
01:00:27 ◼ ► a lot of the flaws of your experience like you know casey your experience with the vulva one
01:00:32 ◼ ► what you keep saying is it's poorly designed it's slow it's cumbersome like those are those are not
01:00:38 ◼ ► inherent flaws of touchscreens that is that is flaws of that touchscreen system but it is
01:00:44 ◼ ► possible to make good touch screen controls for many of these things and in some ways the
01:00:49 ◼ ► trade-offs end up being better like for instance the vent thing that you hate so much john where
01:00:54 ◼ ► you get to aim the vents on modern teslas i didn't have that on my model s i do have that on the
01:00:59 ◼ ► rivian it's fine there are certain advantages there are certain disadvantages it's fine and
01:01:06 ◼ ► a lot of people with with tesla model 3s that have that love them it's fine like many of these
01:01:11 ◼ ► differences are just different and there are pluses and minuses but if you've only ever if you've
01:01:15 ◼ ► never really lived with one you might still only ever be in the transition learning phase this
01:01:21 ◼ ► thing sucks uh phase instead of like i actually am used to this now and i appreciate what's better
01:01:25 ◼ ► about it or if you've only been exposed to a bad one like you know casey's vulvo like you know that
01:01:36 ◼ ► because i can say like as the only one of us that has actually owned two touch actually three
01:01:41 ◼ ► touchscreen cars i don't hate all these climate controls on the touch screen when it is properly
01:01:46 ◼ ► designed when the defroster is always in that one spot and always available which it is on the
01:01:52 ◼ ► rivian and it was for most of the model s when they are well designed it's fine it is totally
01:01:57 ◼ ► fine and there actually are some benefits well you just highlighted one of the problems with it
01:02:05 ◼ ► it was buried in the menu and that doesn't happen with a button so that's one downside obviously
01:02:10 ◼ ► there's an upside to that too which is they can fix things that are annoying later on and they
01:02:13 ◼ ► can't move a button and honestly and as as much as that drove me nuts with the tesla when they did
01:02:18 ◼ ► that i mean that was that was just a bad design but as much as that drove me nuts i also did benefit
01:02:24 ◼ ► quite a lot from tesla adding features and making improvements over the time that i owned the vehicle
01:02:30 ◼ ► yeah we're not saying touch screens are bad and they shouldn't be in cars we're just saying what
01:02:33 ◼ ► you put on them like again what we were just talking about was like we're talking about hvac
01:02:37 ◼ ► specifically none of us are talking about like the drive mode selector or the place where you program
01:02:41 ◼ ► in your personalized driving thing where you pick the steering feel and the regen and blah like
01:02:46 ◼ ► obviously the touch screens are great for all of that we know what their strengths are right
01:02:49 ◼ ► but even the thing where you're saying like well you just haven't tried a good one that is a
01:02:53 ◼ ► another condemnation of using touch screens for things like vents because we weren't in a
01:02:57 ◼ ► situation where we didn't have a tried and true solution that everybody could do nobody was
01:03:03 ◼ ► confused for the most part that most car makers were not confused about how to do a vent that you
01:03:07 ◼ ► could point the airflow out pretty much all the car makers did a thing and it was competent enter
01:03:11 ◼ ► touch screens now suddenly a thing that we had a solution to on every car from inexpensive to
01:03:16 ◼ ► expensive now it's chaos and it's like nobody knows how to do it anymore it's like wait a second
01:03:20 ◼ ► we do know how to do it it's called the vent and you pointed to people and only the good expensive
01:03:24 ◼ ► car makers know how to do it you took a thing that was a solved problem across the entire industry
01:03:29 ◼ ► and you turned it into a thing where well you just have to make sure you get the right one you must
01:03:32 ◼ ► have just got a bad one so that's one damn thing the second thing i'm going to say about your phone
01:03:36 ◼ ► example and the blackberry thing is like i said we're meant to look at our phones in fact we're
01:03:42 ◼ ► when we use our phones we're looking at them so much so that the fact that we do have to look at
01:03:46 ◼ ► our phones to use them is used as an example of why you should not use your phone while you're
01:03:50 ◼ ► driving because when you're driving you have to look at the road that's how much you have to look
01:03:55 ◼ ► at the phone it's a thing that you look at so the things that we're complaining about for touch
01:03:58 ◼ ► screens and hvac that's not a weakness of the phone because when you go to use it you're looking
01:04:03 ◼ ► at it so you don't have to wonder where the button is you're always looking at it that's how you use
01:04:08 ◼ ► a phone whereas how you drive a car is looking at the windshield of the road and when i want to turn
01:04:12 ◼ ► on the seat heaters or figure out if they're on low or high or whatever i should be able to do that
01:04:16 ◼ ► without taking my eyes off the road at all with winter gloves on which was if it was a capacitive
01:04:22 ◼ ► button or something else there's no way i could do that i could feel through the winter gloves what
01:04:26 ◼ ► position the switch is already in and adjust the position i want and i would say seat heaters is a
01:04:30 ◼ ► pretty esoteric feature of the car it's not like turn signals or whatever and the fact that we can
01:04:35 ◼ ► do that with seat heaters with the amazing technology called switches that i don't want
01:04:39 ◼ ► to give up for the hopes that someone can define something you know on a touch screen that's almost
01:04:45 ◼ ► as good but only if you buy a very expensive very fancy car like i said touch screens have huge
01:04:49 ◼ ► advantages they should be used for all the things that are impossible to do with buttons or way worse
01:04:54 ◼ ► with buttons but there are enough things that that is not the case on and hvac i can i can like i
01:05:00 ◼ ► don't think i would i'm not going to not buy another car a new car because it has hvac on
01:05:04 ◼ ► touch screen in fact i'm probably going to have no choice right that's not a actually a big deal to
01:05:07 ◼ ► me but for me if i could choose where to draw the line i would make hvac physical right but the line
01:05:13 ◼ ► that euro ncap is drawing is like turn signals the steering wheel wipers like and i totally agree
01:05:19 ◼ ► with that that stuff is so much more essential like not being able to having to fiddle to turn
01:05:24 ◼ ► on the wipers oh just use automatic wipers that work perfectly well you must not have good ones
01:05:28 ◼ ► the good automatic ones work well like no wipers are a solved problem again it's a stock we you
01:05:33 ◼ ► know or however you're going to do it a twisty thing on the stock or a stock itself i want to be
01:05:38 ◼ ► able to get to the wipers asap i want to be able to know how to adjust them without thinking i
01:05:41 ◼ ► don't want to have to use a touch screen for that so i'm cheering on euro ncap but hvac my
01:05:47 ◼ ► preferences for not to be there casey doesn't like his touch screen hvac but i am perfectly willing
01:05:52 ◼ ► to believe the touch screen hvac will not or is not the end of the world and will not drive me
01:05:56 ◼ ► completely insane but we'll see when i get one yeah i i think you might eat those words at some
01:06:02 ◼ ► point but we'll see i mean and i do take marco's broader point that you know a well-done infotainment
01:06:09 ◼ ► can be not that bad but i i don't know there there are certain things that i'm willing to futz around
01:06:15 ◼ ► on a screen for and certain things i'm not and for me hvac is one of those things i do not want
01:06:19 ◼ ► to go to a screen for it i don't doubt that the rivian screen is way better and works much faster
01:06:25 ◼ ► and better and so on and so forth but ultimately particularly when i'm driving i don't want to have
01:06:29 ◼ ► to look anywhere and yes i know that these buttons don't move within the screen but because there's
01:06:34 ◼ ► nothing physical to feel for i i will never be 100 sure where these buttons are and you have to look
01:06:39 ◼ ► to check state that's why i keep talking about the heat seat the seat heating buttons i can check the
01:06:43 ◼ ► state of it is it already on is it already on high is it already on low is my daughter is in the
01:06:48 ◼ ► passenger seat is hers on high and i'm gonna need to turn it off although she's gonna complain that
01:06:51 ◼ ► she's getting too hot right like that i can check that with my gloved fingers in the dark without
01:06:55 ◼ ► looking uh all right so there's one more piece of automotive related related news uh mark german
01:07:02 ◼ ► wrote uh what is this on my birthday actually that uh apple's new carplay this is the thing where
01:07:07 ◼ ► they like take over the instrument cluster and the whole rigmarole is their last hope to crack the
01:07:12 ◼ ► auto industry german writes the concept for the new carplay known as project iron heart within
01:07:16 ◼ ► apple was to take the system to the next level by fully integrating it into vehicles it would take
01:07:20 ◼ ► over more screens in a car's instrument cluster as well as features like the radio and air conditioning
01:07:24 ◼ ► system this is a big change from the current carplay interface which is more focused on
01:07:31 ◼ ► at this point we should probably do a quick refresher on what the equivalent system is from
01:07:37 ◼ ► google so i'm going to start and john just interrupt me when i go off the rails here but
01:07:42 ◼ ► google for a long time has had android auto which is their equivalent of carplay this is how you
01:07:48 ◼ ► would mess with um your music app or you know your podcasting app and so it's how it's how you
01:07:54 ◼ ► project your phone onto car screens so you have if you have an android phone and you and your car has
01:07:59 ◼ ► android auto your android phone can project its screen onto one or more screens in the car and
01:08:04 ◼ ► that's what carplay does it projects your iphone screen onto one or more screens in your car
01:08:08 ◼ ► exactly so it may not be exactly one-to-one with carplay but it's effectively the same thing
01:08:13 ◼ ► however in the last few years they've come out with android automotive this is different than android
01:08:19 ◼ ► auto that we just described android automotive and android automotive is i i don't know how to
01:08:24 ◼ ► appropriately describe it but it's the infotainment system that the car is running irrespective of
01:08:29 ◼ ► whether or not a phone is connected right it's an operating system like basically you can think of
01:08:33 ◼ ► it this way oh my car runs linux well just say oh my car runs android automotive which is linux
01:08:38 ◼ ► space whatever like android automotive is running on your car it's not running on your phone you
01:08:43 ◼ ► don't have to have a phone at all you can get in any car that's running android automotive when you
01:08:47 ◼ ► start the thing up and the infotainment screen lights up and lets you pick radio stations and
01:08:51 ◼ ► do whatever you're going to do the operating system that those screens are projecting from
01:08:55 ◼ ► is android automotive and it is running on the car it is not related to your phone at all you
01:09:00 ◼ ► can have android automotive in your car and many manufacturers do and android automotive cars can
01:09:05 ◼ ► support carplay and android auto right so the operating system of the car andro android not the
01:09:11 ◼ ► whole car but just the infotainment thing is android automotive and that supports carplay
01:09:16 ◼ ► when you say oh i really wish they would add carplay support to my car chances are good that
01:09:20 ◼ ► your car is running android automotive and when you say you want them to add carplay support you
01:09:23 ◼ ► want them to add carplay support to the android automotive operating system that is running on
01:09:28 ◼ ► your car because that's how your car is able to project itself onto the screens in your car because
01:09:33 ◼ ► the os that your car is running which is android automotive lets that happen exactly and actually
01:09:38 ◼ ► my parents just got a new volvo and there's uh their new volvo has android automotive as the
01:09:44 ◼ ► infotainment system and i used it for literally 30 seconds but that being said it was so much faster
01:09:52 ◼ ► and nicer than our uh what is it like almost 10 year old a six year old seven year old volvo
01:10:01 ◼ ► was only 30 seconds of use i might have a different opinion over time but my understanding from those
01:10:06 ◼ ► uh who have used android automotive like our friend jelly has a polestar uh sedan i forget which one
01:10:11 ◼ ► that is the polestar 2 i think um and jelly has had very complimentary things to be to say about
01:10:16 ◼ ► android automotive as well so anyway uh coming back to mark german polestar there you go porsche
01:10:21 ◼ ► bmw excuse me porsche bmw uh volkswagen ford lucid stellantis which is you know chrysler etc
01:10:28 ◼ ► and general motors now offer cars with the android automotive operating system built in after just
01:10:32 ◼ ► seven years android automotive is the market leader with an estimated 35 of the car operating
01:10:37 ◼ ► system market the new car plays a response to that apple hopes it can win over users and automakers
01:10:42 ◼ ► with a slicker interface and greater customization there's one big difference though the new car play
01:10:46 ◼ ► still runs on the phone and isn't a new os embedded in the vehicle so we need to stop right here this
01:10:51 ◼ ► is not a place where german's analysis as usual makes me just my head spin like how in the world
01:10:57 ◼ ► is the new car player response to an operating system that runs in the car but the difference
01:11:01 ◼ ► it's not an operating system runs in the car it's i mean it's not the same thing what i'm saying is
01:11:07 ◼ ► the new car play the one that protects itself on all the different screens still runs on your phone
01:11:12 ◼ ► you still need an iphone and needs to be in the car and needs to be connected either wired or
01:11:16 ◼ ► wirelessly to make the new car play experience which means that all these cars need to be have
01:11:22 ◼ ► have some operating system that runs them when you don't have a phone because you can't be able
01:11:25 ◼ ► to get into them and drive without an iphone or without any phone like the car should work right
01:11:29 ◼ ► so is it a response maybe you can say yes because apple thinks this is the way it should work but
01:11:34 ◼ ► the bottom line is that this new car play does absolutely nothing to stop car manufacturers from
01:11:40 ◼ ► using android automotive because how the heck are you going to do this new car play without some
01:11:45 ◼ ► kind of operating system on the car and the car needs to have you know a speedometer and stuff
01:11:49 ◼ ► when you're you're not in it with your iphone so uh i object to this entire paragraph but uh i
01:11:55 ◼ ► kind of get what he's trying to say but pick different words all right so coming back to german
01:12:00 ◼ ► apple explorer turning the new car play into a full operating system that runs on cars directly
01:12:04 ◼ ► but the approach would have worked best with apple design chips and other proprietary technologies
01:12:08 ◼ ► like displays it wasn't seen as practical to install that in cars another pause another
01:12:13 ◼ ► pause now so i i get what he's saying here too but i would say that the counter example
01:12:20 ◼ ► the apple counter example uh is apple tv right they sell a little hockey puck with apple silicon
01:12:26 ◼ ► in it that will run tv os and it will do apple tv plus you know and a bunch of other apps and stuff
01:12:33 ◼ ► too but also you can buy a tv and watch apple tv plus on it and there's no apple silicon in that
01:12:38 ◼ ► tv it's some garbagey media tech chip in there right like when it comes to it apple can get
01:12:45 ◼ ► its software onto non-apple silicon with much worse processors and these weird things they
01:12:51 ◼ ► have to deal with all these different manufacturers but when it's important they do it and it's
01:12:55 ◼ ► important to get more people to watch and pay for apple tv plus so now every time you buy tv it's
01:13:00 ◼ ► got netflix built in it's got apple tv plus built in it's got all these things built in
01:13:08 ◼ ► hardware in there making that happen it is just plain oh the smart tvs are essentially little
01:13:13 ◼ ► computers by the way that a lot of them are on android uh and apple wants to be everywhere so
01:13:17 ◼ ► it makes sure that it writes a little app apple tv plus app that works there um so i understand why
01:13:23 ◼ ► apple would prefer that all these cars have apple silicon in them to give really good experience and
01:13:28 ◼ ► i would imagine that the iphone that people are projecting from is significantly more powerful and
01:13:32 ◼ ► better tuned to ios than any car is going to be but when it's important if you actually want to
01:13:42 ◼ ► is actually willing to do sometimes i take your point but i don't think it's apples to apples like
01:13:47 ◼ ► in the case of an infotainment system it would still probably or particularly for gauges need
01:13:52 ◼ ► to be a real-time os which has very specific constraints i don't think any gauges are real-time
01:13:56 ◼ ► os do you think do you think they're the gauges are run by real-time os i think they have to be i
01:14:00 ◼ ► mean they're certainly not in carplay that's the thing is that uh well oh you mean in the new car
01:14:05 ◼ ► play yeah that's a good point yeah and the new car uh yeah i don't know but i think if you were
01:14:09 ◼ ► if you were the car manufacturer and apple comes to you and says hey we'll take over the gauge cluster
01:14:12 ◼ ► for you i would say like look you need to have something that's reliable in that's real time you
01:14:18 ◼ ► know in every definition of the word i i don't i don't think the gauge cluster in marco's rivian
01:14:23 ◼ ► is real-time os i don't think the gauge cluster in any car i mean every car is an lcd gauge cluster
01:14:28 ◼ ► now i don't think there's a real-time os running that i think that is just the same it can crash at
01:14:32 ◼ ► any time it's not a big deal thing that is running the infotainment it's basically android android
01:14:36 ◼ ► automotive is running those instrument clusters and it's not real time didn't we get some feedback
01:14:40 ◼ ► a few months back that they had to be real time in the us i yeah again i don't i don't know the
01:14:44 ◼ ► details but my guess would be that's not what they're currently doing um i mean and with apple
01:14:49 ◼ ► doing it with the iphone thing apple hasn't announced anything related to that so we can
01:14:53 ◼ ► actually have this discussion recently with somebody about uh apple vision pro and the r1
01:14:57 ◼ ► chip we've talked about before about is it running a real-time os or is it not and still no one from
01:15:02 ◼ ► apple has officially come down from on high and given a secret anonymous feedback to let us know
01:15:06 ◼ ► definitively what is or isn't real time there's supposedly some real-time subsystem that's
01:15:10 ◼ ► happening somewhere in ios but ios itself is not a real-time operating system and i don't know um
01:15:16 ◼ ► but anyway uh i a lot of the stuff like you don't bottom line is if your instrument cluster goes
01:15:21 ◼ ► black the car continues to work yeah it's bad that you can't see the speedometer and all that
01:15:29 ◼ ► the steer by wire system right or your brakes the brake by wire systems you know what i mean
01:15:33 ◼ ► yeah that's a good point and i guess what i was eventually driving at was if i was apple and i
01:15:38 ◼ ► was building a car with project titan and i built a real-time os i probably would have built that
01:15:42 ◼ ► real-time os against some sort of apple silicon and it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't
01:15:47 ◼ ► particularly want to have to build that same os against a different kind of silicon and it's not
01:15:53 ◼ ► impossible i would assume but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't want to and so that's kind of
01:15:56 ◼ ► how they back themselves into this corner does there's another thing i don't know does android
01:16:00 ◼ ► automotive have a real-time uh kernel or the ability to run real-time processes for its
01:16:05 ◼ ► uh instrument cluster stuff i don't i don't know and i don't think i'd be able to figure that out
01:16:09 ◼ ► without having to give future marco a whole bunch of work we'll presumably get some feedback maybe
01:16:13 ◼ ► sam at walsham it is still listening yeah it'll be interesting to like this this whole thing
01:16:16 ◼ ► to to clarify technically if people know when we say real-time operating system what does that mean
01:16:21 ◼ ► or whatever it's basically like if you think about uh the example from my childhood is uh
01:16:25 ◼ ► operating systems that would run on space probes right and the thing that distinguishes them is
01:16:29 ◼ ► that uh when you set something up and you say this program runs and does this thing it always does
01:16:35 ◼ ► things according to uh guaranteed deadlines so there's no scenario in which some operation
01:16:41 ◼ ► that's supposed to get done at the very latest by this particular time will occasionally take a
01:16:47 ◼ ► little bit longer and how could that happen well for example say your program's running along and
01:16:51 ◼ ► all of a sudden some other process starts and it allocates a bunch of memory and then when some
01:16:54 ◼ ► instruction goes in your program your thing is supposed to be done already but it's like oops
01:16:58 ◼ ► uh this page was uh swapped out and now i got to pull it back in from swap so this operation took
01:17:03 ◼ ► twice as long as it normally does sorry about that now you just missed your deadline real-time
01:17:07 ◼ ► operating systems for things like space probes or whatever like if they miss their deadline for
01:17:11 ◼ ► anything the like it's a complete failure like absolutely 100 complete failure it's not like
01:17:16 ◼ ► oopsie or whatever that's not how our computers work now if you do something like run a benchmark
01:17:20 ◼ ► and then you like start up some other program and start rendering in the background your benchmark
01:17:25 ◼ ► score will go down because your other process is taking resources from it real-time operating
01:17:29 ◼ ► systems allow processes to reserve essentially i am always going to get these resources my things
01:17:34 ◼ ► are always going to happen on this time schedule guaranteed by the operating system there's nothing
01:17:38 ◼ ► anything else on this system can do to make it so that i don't hit my deadlines that is important
01:17:44 ◼ ► for things like space probes that are going you know hundreds of thousands of miles an hour or
01:17:49 ◼ ► whatever and they have to make split second decisions you can't have a situation in which
01:17:53 ◼ ► like oops some other process ran and your thing ran a little slower now you missed your deadline
01:17:57 ◼ ► um as you can imagine that's not important for phones computers all these systems that we have
01:18:02 ◼ ► where yeah you know if you run two things you one thing will go slower than if you're running it by
01:18:06 ◼ ► itself right that's why we said if you're running benchmarks make sure you don't have other processes
01:18:10 ◼ ► running make sure time machine isn't running in the background because the things we do with our
01:18:14 ◼ ► computers do not get reserved unperturbable guaranteed resources with deadlines on all of
01:18:20 ◼ ► them that's not the way we want our computers to work but if you have something that's supposed
01:18:25 ◼ ► to control like a machine hurtling down the road that could kill somebody it's a good idea to have
01:18:30 ◼ ► some part of the that system be if it's running software be real time such that you're never
01:18:35 ◼ ► surprised by like something taking twice as long as expected or some other process spinning up and
01:18:41 ◼ ► making your thing slower and delaying something uh and so that's what we mean when we need real
01:18:46 ◼ ► time operating system i'll put a link in the show notes to the wikipedia page which there are other
01:18:49 ◼ ► various more vague definitions of it but this is what we're talking about things happen on a
01:18:53 ◼ ► guaranteed time resources are guaranteed and nothing else that happens on the system can
01:18:57 ◼ ► perturb those and that is totally inappropriate for the thing that lets you play podcasts over
01:19:02 ◼ ► bluetooth in your car so that's not going to be a real-time operating system that is not essential
01:19:06 ◼ ► functionality spinometers is that essential it would be useful because like if you want it to be
01:19:12 ◼ ► as real time as a physical speedometer used to be in the really old days but in the end the car still
01:19:16 ◼ ► works without it but when we say drive by wire and break by wire what we mean is lots of modern cars
01:19:21 ◼ ► have a brake pedal that is not physically connected in any way to the braking system it's
01:19:26 ◼ ► just basically like an electronic switch that sends a signal to a computer that actuates the
01:19:30 ◼ ► braking system and they have steer by wire systems where your steering wheel is not connected to the
01:19:34 ◼ ► front wheels physically but instead it's just connected to a thing that senses its position
01:19:38 ◼ ► and then activates a bunch of electronic motors and those those probably don't even run an
01:19:42 ◼ ► operating system at all really to speak of it's probably just embedded systems or whatever but
01:19:46 ◼ ► if there was any kind of involvement of any operating system or a kernel involved in those
01:19:50 ◼ ► systems it's probably a real-time operating system because you want pretty hard guarantees that when
01:19:55 ◼ ► you turn the wheel under some very controlled deadline the wheels of your car will also react
01:20:02 ◼ ► in turn real-time follow-up from hairline one in the chat apparently android auto is not real-time
01:20:10 ◼ ► and they had the hairline one provided a page where there's a compare and contrast between qnx
01:20:16 ◼ ► which is the kind of de facto standard real-time os that's used in most cars versus android auto
01:20:21 ◼ ► and that's one of the the cons for android automotive that's not real-time and then as i was
01:20:25 ◼ ► clicking around looking at qnx a little bit it was written by two different people dan dodge and
01:20:30 ◼ ► gordon bell and apparently dan dodge and as per wikipedia announced his retirement from qnx in
01:20:35 ◼ ► 2015 and then in mid to late 2016 it was reported that he joined apple to work on the project titan
01:20:43 ◼ ► thing which i did not know so there you go wonder what he's doing now all right so just to finish
01:20:47 ◼ ► out this his never-ending topic on carplay uh mark garman writes the limited rollout of the
01:20:53 ◼ ► new version of carplay is focused on very high-end cars in fact the only model confirmed to be getting
01:20:56 ◼ ► the new car plays the asta martin db12 which costs roughly 245 000 and up porsche hasn't said which
01:21:02 ◼ ► model or models are getting the feature uh german says i'm told that apple has no plan in place to
01:21:07 ◼ ► make money from the new software as with the current version of carplay the company isn't
01:21:10 ◼ ► looking to charge users for it or force car manufacturers to pay to install it uh just for
01:21:14 ◼ ► the record apple if you are listening if you would like to send me a db12 to test for a little while
01:21:20 ◼ ► i am happy to do that at no cost to you and i will happily feature that that car in that experience
01:21:26 ◼ ► on a full episode of this podcast i promise that they won't give you a press pass any of their
01:21:31 ◼ ► events but they'll send you a 245 000 car that's right that makes sense i'm here for it i've waited
01:21:36 ◼ ► this is they knew what was coming they knew i needed to build up the credit so to speak
01:21:40 ◼ ► so i could get this this is my moment this is my time to shine please send me the db12 whenever
01:21:45 ◼ ► you're ready yeah and not to drag this back down to the regulatory stuff but there is a bunch of
01:21:48 ◼ ► stuff in the doj complaint about the the potential threat of apple extending its monopoly power to
01:21:53 ◼ ► take over the car industry and i hope you've seen as we've gone through uh the landscape and what
01:21:57 ◼ ► apple is currently doing that i don't think android android automotive has much to worry
01:22:01 ◼ ► about from carplay at this moment i don't think so either so we should probably do some ask atp
01:22:08 ◼ ► and we're going to start that right now with a question from ask cortex episode 153. i love we
01:22:14 ◼ ► just steal whatever we want from other podcasts it's fine that's part of the community of podcasting
01:22:18 ◼ ► we are a melting pot uh stolen from ask cortex number 153 nick writes how soon after waking up
01:22:24 ◼ ► do you begin actively engaging with your phone or another screen uh i don't want to answer this
01:22:28 ◼ ► question marco how about you i will give the answer that we all do because of we're all being
01:22:34 ◼ ► honest we all know i interact with my phone pretty much immediately after waking up it says actively
01:22:39 ◼ ► engaging so i'm going to say that clarifying this question i'm going to say turning off your alarm
01:22:43 ◼ ► does not count okay well okay so most days i just hit snooze you know once or twice then get up
01:22:51 ◼ ► but when i go into the bathroom to like brush my teeth and stuff i bring my phone with me
01:22:56 ◼ ► you get a brush his little phone teeth usually i am reading you know i'm like doing my initial
01:23:02 ◼ ► phone triage of check the email you know all that stuff usually i'm doing that while brushing my
01:23:07 ◼ ► teeth well wait a second this is actually this this is actually related you wake up and immediately
01:23:12 ◼ ► brush your teeth yes am i doing this wrong yes you are i brush mine after breakfast correct that is
01:23:18 ◼ ► the correct answer now using a communal cup to rinse is not the correct answer but it's brushing
01:23:24 ◼ ► your teeth after breakfast is the correct answer so now see now now we're going to hear from all
01:23:27 ◼ ► like the dentist but like so what what i what i read forever ago somewhere you know which is not
01:23:35 ◼ ► a very credible information source is that you don't want all of the like crap in your mouth
01:23:41 ◼ ► from overnight you don't want to like consume that so the idea is brush and get it out of your mouth
01:23:46 ◼ ► as soon as you can when you wake up oh you said something different i thought you're gonna say no
01:23:49 ◼ ► i have never heard that i also don't think that's a thing but you know hey there's no harm in brushing
01:23:53 ◼ ► before as long as you also brush after breakfast that's fair that's fair that i will allow that
01:23:57 ◼ ► yeah for me i wake up and generally speaking this has been the case for most of my life
01:24:03 ◼ ► if i open my eyes even just to look at a clock i will be oh if it's after like or if it's within
01:24:11 ◼ ► an hour of when i normally need to wake up the moment i open my eyes that's it for the day i'm up
01:24:15 ◼ ► and so that's that's generally speaking the way it works and so if i open my eyes i maybe will wait
01:24:22 ◼ ► 15 seconds before i grab my phone and start screwing around on it but yeah it's pretty much
01:24:28 ◼ ► instant i don't use an alarm pretty much ever because aaron gets out of bed before me and even
01:24:32 ◼ ► though she is effectively a ninja when she gets out of bed i am a light sleeper like i said when
01:24:37 ◼ ► when it gets to morning time and so by her getting out of bed before me it wakes me up and and yeah
01:24:42 ◼ ► it's but from in the time it takes her to walk from the bed to the bathroom and i assure you our
01:24:47 ◼ ► house is not that large uh i have already grabbed my phone and started looking at something does
01:24:51 ◼ ► she use an alarm she does although more often than not she'll wake up before the alarm by a little
01:24:56 ◼ ► bit and so she'll have silenced it before it goes off but again just her getting out of bed will
01:25:01 ◼ ► wake me up even if even if her alarm doesn't well i guess i'm the only one out here uh hold holding
01:25:07 ◼ ► strong against the uh the uh irresistible draw of the phone uh so like like both of you apparently
01:25:13 ◼ ► my phone is reachable from my bed it's on my nightstand where it charges i don't use it as
01:25:19 ◼ ► my alarm clock i have a uh super crappy ancient uh clock radio sony digital clock radio thing that
01:25:26 ◼ ► i use as my alarm is it the square white one that we all had in the night no it's it's but it's a
01:25:31 ◼ ► it's a you would be a familiar model it's it's not great but i've had it forever i think what i should
01:25:35 ◼ ► probably just do is record that i hate all the phone uh alarms like i the only time i use my
01:25:40 ◼ ► phone is when i'm traveling and i have like ptsd from like waking me up at like 5 a.m to get a line
01:25:45 ◼ ► on wwc so i and all the ring all the all the alarm turns that i use just give me bad memories of
01:25:51 ◼ ► travel stress and that's just a me thing anyway so i have my clock radio i do set an alarm on it
01:25:56 ◼ ► um my routine on my routine on weekdays is very well defined um sometimes i wake up before my
01:26:04 ◼ ► alarm sometimes i don't or whatever but anyway uh i get out of bed i pick up my phone and i put it in
01:26:11 ◼ ► my pocket i take my air pods and put them in my pocket too and then i make eventually make my way
01:26:16 ◼ ► downstairs and put my phone and my air pods in the downstairs location which is like a little
01:26:21 ◼ ► sideboard table or whatever and i do my morning routine which has involved various times and still
01:26:28 ◼ ► does involve getting my kids ready for school and currently involves driving my daughter to school
01:26:34 ◼ ► and dropping her off at school that whole morning routine happens and i literally do not look at my
01:26:39 ◼ ► phone i don't even look to see if there are notifications on it what so because i remember
01:26:48 ◼ ► here's how we know john doesn't run servers a i don't really want servers but b if they're like
01:26:55 ◼ ► if if my phone made a noise or like vibrated with the notification i would probably look at it
01:27:01 ◼ ► but my notifications are so like i have so few of them that's probably not going to happen unless
01:27:08 ◼ ► like unless literally somebody calls me i guess if i got a text message my phone would vibrate so it's
01:27:13 ◼ ► not like i'm like i have text messages notifications on but i get so few text messages right but in the
01:27:17 ◼ ► absence of any surprising thing my phone screen goes unlooked at i guess until essentially well
01:27:25 ◼ ► used to be until i would get in the car to like drive kids but now my kids don't let me play my
01:27:28 ◼ ► music in the car anyway so but i do take my phone and stick it to the the magsafe mount but it's not
01:27:33 ◼ ► doing anything there except for like trickle charging right so i bring my phone with me in
01:27:37 ◼ ► case like again to an accident need to call somebody whatever like when i leave the house
01:27:41 ◼ ► i have my phone but still i have not actively engaged with the screen only when i get back
01:27:45 ◼ ► after the morning has been done everybody's off to where they need to go and i'm back in the house
01:27:56 ◼ ► that is bananas to me i thought it was bananas enough that snell keeps his well i say that as
01:28:01 ◼ ► though it's bad i thought it was unusual that snell charges his phone in a different room that's
01:28:06 ◼ ► not bad it's actually probably healthy but it's unusual but for you not to even look at it until
01:28:11 ◼ ► you've made an entire school run that is wow yeah because like i'm at this point i'm like i'm waking
01:28:17 ◼ ► up seven ish 7 30 and then i'm back at the house after dropping my daughter off and a little bit
01:28:22 ◼ ► after nine so my first active engagement with the phone screen every day is you know wait it takes
01:28:28 ◼ ► you an hour and a half to drop her off that's not how long it takes that's something that's when i
01:28:32 ◼ ► wake up versus when i drop her off well what are you doing then go downstairs clean up whatever
01:28:37 ◼ ► mess was in the kitchen make her lunch make sure she's awake deal with whatever last minute
01:28:43 ◼ ► emergencies there are related to school stuff like things like that i'm and the thing is because this
01:28:48 ◼ ► is uh this specifically asked about my phone screen it didn't answer ask about my mac screen
01:28:53 ◼ ► and if i managed to get everything ready and i'm waiting for her to finish getting ready i may go in
01:28:58 ◼ ► and look at what's happening on my mac and look at my email on my mac screen for two minutes usually
01:29:02 ◼ ► i don't have that kind of time but because i'm usually trying to chase her out of the house
01:29:04 ◼ ► because she's not a morning person um but if i do have time that's what i go to my phone my phone
01:29:11 ◼ ► screen does not get looked at until i'm back at the house and i'm about to eat breakfast and even
01:29:16 ◼ ► then like i'll put the phone on the table and then i'll get my breakfast get all my stuff or whatever
01:29:20 ◼ ► and like as i'm you know eating breakfast i'm putting the food into my mouth then i'm unlocking
01:29:25 ◼ ► my phone and probably going to mastodon oh my god good for you i mean i i'm poking fun a little bit
01:29:30 ◼ ► but good for you that's probably um i would argue that is a much healthier relationship than i have
01:29:35 ◼ ► so credit to you i mean the thing is like i'm also not a morning person so i if i woke up a half an
01:29:41 ◼ ► hour earlier i could stare at my phone for half an hour in bed but i'd rather be asleep so like it's
01:29:45 ◼ ► i get up when i have to to do the things i have to do in the morning which involves you know used
01:29:52 ◼ ► to be hurting two people and i was just hurting one person but you know and like i said depending
01:29:56 ◼ ► on what kind of disaster is in the kitchen from the night before the didn't get cleaned up i'm
01:29:59 ◼ ► dealing with that emptying the dishwasher doing all that stuff in the morning making my daughter
01:30:03 ◼ ► breakfast if that's what she wants me to do with that time figuring out if she does want me to make
01:30:07 ◼ ► her breakfast you know there's a lot of child serving going on once all my kids are off at
01:30:11 ◼ ► college maybe this routine will change and i'll stare at my phone in the bed like an normal person
01:30:15 ◼ ► but right now it's not happening and then and then on weekends i try to sleep on weekends because
01:30:20 ◼ ► they don't have to do anything in the morning if i'm lucky uh and in weekends i will if i'm able
01:30:25 ◼ ► actually to sleep in i will grab my phone and look at it in bed before i get out of bed because it's
01:30:29 ◼ ► the luxury of the weekend that i don't have to go and deal with anything if i'm lucky if that
01:30:33 ◼ ► happens to be that day if i don't have to drive someone somewhere to to do something i will look
01:30:37 ◼ ► at it for a few minutes before i get out of bed wow i've learned a lot tonight all right brian
01:30:42 ◼ ► asks you mentioned on a recent episode that will probably not upgrade to 128 bit in our lifetime
01:30:47 ◼ ► what would it be the impetus for going from 64 bit to 128 bit wasn't this about memory in in 8 to 16
01:30:54 ◼ ► to 32 to 64 wasn't it about addressable memory well sort of yeah so this this came up like um
01:31:01 ◼ ► i was talking about how like it came up like why did mobile phone software um age out like the
01:31:07 ◼ ► early mobile phone software aged out of of being able to run so quickly compared to early computer
01:31:12 ◼ ► software and one of the things i said was like well we did a bunch of transitions over the last
01:31:17 ◼ ► few years like 32 64 bit that we probably like we probably won't have to do that again in our
01:31:21 ◼ ► lifetime for that particular one and and the reason why is i mean obviously like there's
01:31:26 ◼ ► not every value that processors deal with is 64 bits these days there's all sorts of different
01:31:34 ◼ ► ways that processors can deal with larger numbers or larger you know wider data paths than this
01:31:38 ◼ ► but 64-bit is kind of like when when usually we're referring to whether a processor is 32-bit or 64
01:31:45 ◼ ► bit usually we are referring to the size of the like kind of regular integer type as well as the
01:31:51 ◼ ► memory address so like when you're referring to address memory that's usually like the size of the
01:31:56 ◼ ► pointer that refers to the memory addresses and so all sorts of you know software you know details
01:32:02 ◼ ► and tricks rely on these sizes and everything like that so it's fairly important to have software is
01:32:06 ◼ ► compiled and how it's made and everything else and of course it implies limits of how much memory you
01:32:11 ◼ ► can address and things like that and the reason why we are unlikely to to make that jump again in
01:32:16 ◼ ► our lifetime to go from 64-bit to 128-bit on that kind of level is do the math see see what kind of
01:32:25 ◼ ► numbers you are dealing with when you compare two to the 64th to two to the 128th and i think what
01:32:32 ◼ ► you will find is that all of those doublings that are happening with every single one of those bits
01:32:37 ◼ ► really add up and so the the amount of resources that we would be talking about that would be that
01:32:43 ◼ ► would require over 64 bits of of address space i don't have the tool i don't have the number in
01:32:49 ◼ ► front of me right the second i can look it up while john explains why i'm wrong but it's it's
01:32:52 ◼ ► a large amount of memory a very very large amount of memory now you're not you're not wrong but the
01:32:58 ◼ ► the more important comparison is 32-bit two to the 32nd is a tractable number it's like 4 billion
01:33:04 ◼ ► you can think of all sorts of real world problems where being able to count up to 4 billion is a
01:33:09 ◼ ► limiting factor it's like especially if it's a design thing and now it's negative 2 billion to
01:33:13 ◼ ► positive 2 billion or whatever like okay well there's more than 4 billion people on earth
01:33:18 ◼ ► right so there's one right um there's more than 4 billion uh you know computers on earth right so
01:33:25 ◼ ► if you had to assign addresses to them so we have ipv4 versus ipv6 right and in storage space it's
01:33:30 ◼ ► four gigs yeah for for uh you know two to the 32nd there's lots of real world problems where we need
01:33:36 ◼ ► to count higher than that two to the 64th on the other hand i believe is enough to give like a
01:33:41 ◼ ► memory address to every grain of sand on the planet or something like that like it's really big
01:33:45 ◼ ► it's a really big number right and so practically speaking yes of course you use floating point
01:33:50 ◼ ► numbers to count higher or whatever but practically speaking we're ever going to need to address more
01:33:54 ◼ ► than two to the 32nd bits of ram yeah we already do right that's why we have 64-bit are we ever
01:33:59 ◼ ► going to need to address more than two to the 64th bits of ram maybe someday but not anytime soon let
01:34:05 ◼ ► me tell you because that's a lot of ram right this is a tremendous it's so much ram in fact that yes
01:34:09 ◼ ► even though a 64-bit processors have a 64-bit integers and 64-bit pointers quote unquote if
01:34:15 ◼ ► you look at the hardware almost all that doesn't use all 64 bits for the hardware addressing because
01:34:20 ◼ ► they're like come on how much ram is ever going to be in your phone they will not use all those
01:34:25 ◼ ► address lines in the hardware sense they will save a lot of money by only using like 40 address lines
01:34:31 ◼ ► you know from 32 up to 40 like again those doublings add up real fast there's no reason
01:34:37 ◼ ► to put enough address lines and like even operating systems will just like ignore the top
01:34:41 ◼ ► end bits of pointers to say just ignore those pointers no one's ever going to have that amount
01:34:46 ◼ ► of ram because you know again maybe someday but two to the 64th is huge right so that's why
01:34:54 ◼ ► even though nintendo 64 came out and said it's better because it's 64 well don't worry next year
01:34:59 ◼ ► there'll be nintendo 128 no there won't i mean they can call it that but there's no reason to
01:35:05 ◼ ► do that there's no benefit to that there's tremendous cost and there are no sort of real
01:35:10 ◼ ► world problems that we're tackling these days that require more than two to the 64th of anything two
01:35:15 ◼ ► to the 64th bits of ram two to the 64th things that we're counting again floating point exists
01:35:20 ◼ ► setting aside the gaps in the numbers or whatever so someday yeah we'll get there but not in our
01:35:26 ◼ ► lifetime except for in very special applications i'm sure some super computer person is going to
01:35:30 ◼ ► say oh we use a 512 bit interface because it's really important for yeah there are specialist
01:35:34 ◼ ► applications but for your phone for your personal computer there is lots of cost and currently zero
01:35:40 ◼ ► benefit to going to 128 bit all right thank you to our sponsor this week factor and thank you to
01:35:46 ◼ ► our members who support us directly you can join us atp.fm slash join our new member perk is called
01:35:51 ◼ ► atp overtime this is an extra segment that we do for members exclusive this week's overtime is on
01:35:58 ◼ ► the future of apple ids in particular apple id was recently rumored to be rebranded to the apple
01:36:04 ◼ ► account in the near future and so we're talking about that in this week's atp overtime thank you
01:36:10 ◼ ► so much once again for the members who support us atp.fm slash join and we will talk to you next week
01:36:25 ◼ ► oh it was accidental john didn't do any research margo and casey wouldn't let him because it was
01:36:34 ◼ ► accidental it was accidental and you can find the show notes at atp.fm and if you're into twitter
01:36:46 ◼ ► you can follow them at c a s e y l i s s so that's casey lis m a r c o a r m anti-marco armen s i r
01:37:07 ◼ ► they didn't mean to accidental tech podcast so long john i hear you've been having some
01:37:20 ◼ ► troubles with software these days this is the thing i have with uh graphics programs in particular
01:37:27 ◼ ► i guess the only time i've ever really felt satisfied that i didn't have the problem about to
01:37:32 ◼ ► describe is probably in some college course that i was taking where i think don't quote me on this
01:37:38 ◼ ► but i think i was using autocad people who know cad programs probably know or when i describe it
01:37:43 ◼ ► but anyway this it was a cad program it was for some computer aided design thing where you could
01:37:49 ◼ ► design something i forget if there was no 3d printers then i forget how we were manufacturing
01:37:53 ◼ ► stuff but it was basically just had to design physical things in a way that they could be
01:37:56 ◼ ► manufactured right and the cad program you know it had pallets and tools and a mouse cursor on the same
01:38:11 ◼ ► and i feel like that was the only time i really felt like i could make the program always do
01:38:19 ◼ ► what i wanted uh maybe it'll make sense when i describe what i was trying to do with this
01:38:25 ◼ ► graphics program but the command line thing was very useful so i use affinity designer as my
01:38:33 ◼ ► vector drawing program to do most of the artwork for the t-shirts that we sell stay tuned for the
01:38:38 ◼ ► rwbc sale coming up sometime in the future and it's a vector program like like illustrator where
01:38:45 ◼ ► you're not laying out pixels on a big grid you are defining these vectors mathematically and then so
01:38:51 ◼ ► it's resolution independent so you can make it any size you want and when you're doing stuff like
01:38:55 ◼ ► that because you're not laying down a bunch of pixels and everything needs to be mathematically
01:38:59 ◼ ► defined these tools usually have interesting let's say ways to manipulate the things that you have
01:39:06 ◼ ► drawn kind of like a cad program right so the problem i was facing for uh one of the shirt
01:39:13 ◼ ► designs that we've come up with for this year's sale which i'm not going to spoil but you'll see
01:39:17 ◼ ► when we announce the sale at some point um i was using affinity designers tools to draw a shape
01:39:24 ◼ ► and in vector drawing program parts to call it a stroke and the stroke is just a mathematical
01:39:31 ◼ ► definition right and you can give the stroke a width or it could be zero width right if it's
01:39:35 ◼ ► zero with it it's just a totally invisible thing that you can you know curve text along or whatever
01:39:41 ◼ ► but i wanted to give the stroke a width which means this is a line and i'm gonna it's gonna show up on
01:39:45 ◼ ► the page and say it's just a circle or whatever it is and when you do the stroke width you give
01:39:50 ◼ ► the stroke width and whatever you know however you laid out the document whether it's in inches
01:39:53 ◼ ► or points or whatever you can even give it a stroke with in pixels despite the fact that it's
01:39:57 ◼ ► a vector drawing program one of the tools affinity has the most vector programs have is okay how do
01:40:03 ◼ ► you want me to draw this stroke though do you want me to draw the stroke it's like a one centimeter
01:40:08 ◼ ► stroke you want to draw it in black right should it be centered on the path that you've defined
01:40:12 ◼ ► so like half of the black is on the outside of the circle and half of the black is on the inside
01:40:17 ◼ ► if you're visualizing the stroke going around or should the stroke be all on the inside of the path
01:40:21 ◼ ► or should the stroke be all on the outside of the path or various things in between this is
01:40:25 ◼ ► a common feature of vector programs right and i wanted this for the thing i was drawing because
01:40:30 ◼ ► i wanted the stroke to be entirely on the outside of my shape because it was important that the
01:40:34 ◼ ► inside proportions remain the same so that the entire stroke width needs to be on the outside
01:40:39 ◼ ► right and then at a certain point what i wanted to do was essentially slice some sort of sword
01:40:49 ◼ ► style through the shape that i had drawn right and in autocad and things like that this is exactly
01:40:56 ◼ ► the type of thing i would do probably from the command line to say all right here's the shape
01:41:00 ◼ ► do this you know define a new line like a line that goes through the thing and slice through
01:41:04 ◼ ► it or whatever stuff like that always seem to be ready at hand in autocad extend this line till it
01:41:11 ◼ ► hits that line make this thing perpendicular to that cut this thing here right those things seem
01:41:18 ◼ ► to work for me in autocad and in this program affinity designer there's 15 ways for you to
01:41:24 ◼ ► use a shape to chop another shape they have all the boolean operations you can take a circle and
01:41:28 ◼ ► a triangle lay them over each other and you can add them and or them or xor them or subtract them
01:41:32 ◼ ► and just like everything you could possibly imagine you could draw a line through a thing
01:41:35 ◼ ► you can add nodes to a line and break the curve at this point and break the curve at that point like
01:41:39 ◼ ► there's 55 ways to do this and let me just stipulate right now there's probably a way to do
01:41:44 ◼ ► what i'm about to complain about in affinity designer my complaint is i could not find it
01:41:48 ◼ ► all right so here was the problem i do the thing i have the shape it's the stroke is on the outside
01:41:55 ◼ ► of the of the path i draw the thing through it i'm like slice it here and it slices it and the
01:42:00 ◼ ► second it slices the stroke moves to be centered on the path because the definition of outside of
01:42:06 ◼ ► the path only really makes sense for a closed shape like a circle circle and once i had sliced
01:42:12 ◼ ► that circle what is the outside and what is the inside and as far as i was concerned well you know
01:42:17 ◼ ► what the outside is it's whatever it was before i sliced the damn thing because i had it set the
01:42:21 ◼ ► outside you knew it was a closed shape you consider that the outside i sliced it in half
01:42:26 ◼ ► just leave the stroke where it is i know it's confusing about where it might be maybe don't
01:42:30 ◼ ► let me change it after that or something but the bottom line is i had a shape the stroke was on the
01:42:34 ◼ ► outside of the path i cut it and the stroke immediately moved to the inside and this was
01:42:38 ◼ ► a problem that was repeated let's say multiple times over this design and i was like how am i
01:42:44 ◼ ► gonna fix this i have to go back and redraw these things kind of and i couldn't like mask them because
01:42:50 ◼ ► i need these transparent areas and everything like that and it just made me think look program
01:42:55 ◼ ► i know you can do this i know you have it in you this it's clear you can it's just a question of
01:43:02 ◼ ► do your tools are your tools orthogonal enough to let me accomplish a thing that i know
01:43:06 ◼ ► must be possible and the answer as far as me flailing and doing google searches and youtube
01:43:11 ◼ ► search and everything like that was no i could not figure it out i had to redraw every single
01:43:16 ◼ ► one of those strokes with the line centered on the path moving the path by eye to try to
01:43:22 ◼ ► and anytime you do anything by eye in a vector drawing program you've lost you've lost the game
01:43:26 ◼ ► it's kind of like in a real time i was when the deadline isn't met anytime you are aligning
01:43:30 ◼ ► something by eye in a vector program you have 100 lost if you're like me and you're freaking xdr
01:43:34 ◼ ► and you're zoomed into 17 000 trying to align it and this you just know it's like no matter how
01:43:40 ◼ ► much you zoom it'll always be off by a little bit like i really hope uh bad designers are nodding
01:43:46 ◼ ► their heads in an acknowledgement of yes you can zoom forever and you realize you never have it
01:43:51 ◼ ► dead on right now the good thing for me is i understand this is going to be printed on a t-shirt
01:43:55 ◼ ► at like maybe three to six hundred dpi so i don't need like it's not it's not as important as
01:44:00 ◼ ► machining a part for the use inside an engine or something right so i can get away with fudging
01:44:04 ◼ ► this but it annoys me i don't want to have to fudge it i want it to be mathematically perfect
01:44:08 ◼ ► like it used to be when the stroke was on the outside of the line until i cut the shape so this
01:44:13 ◼ ► is my plea for anybody making any kind of tool be like autocad if you have a set of operations that
01:44:20 ◼ ► you can perform a set of things that you can adjust make sure they're all they're all orthogonal
01:44:25 ◼ ► which means they they don't interfere with each other if you can do a and you can do b doing a
01:44:30 ◼ ► in some circumstances doesn't make b impossible they're orthogonal they're unrelated they're at
01:44:34 ◼ ► right angles to each other if i can stroke the outside of a line and i can cut a shape cutting
01:44:39 ◼ ► a shape should not make it impossible for me to stroke the outside of a line anymore especially
01:44:42 ◼ ► if the line is already stroked on the outside so if any affinity designer people are listening to
01:44:46 ◼ ► this and you can just tell me how to do it's too late now i'm already done with the design
01:44:50 ◼ ► but for future reference i would love to know and if it literally isn't possible in an affinity
01:44:54 ◼ ► designer please make it possible i know this company has just been acquired by a larger company