The Accidental Tech Podcast

128: Blue Ring Stud


00:00:00   Was it John that fixed my bullet issue. Yes I said Ste how. What magic did you use to do that. [TS]

00:00:07   Dontcha know hundred I'm by now there [TS]

00:00:09   when dealing with a rich text editing applications where you have a kind of a what you see is what you get output. [TS]

00:00:17   That even though this is not probably technically the case although used to be in some things you can conceptualize it [TS]

00:00:23   as there being individual. Individual invisible formatting. Characters. Zero with invisible formatting characters. [TS]

00:00:30   Attached to text that you can't delete. And that when things touch them they infect the thing that they touch. [TS]

00:00:39   All formatting and Rich Text editors like Word or any of these types of things. Involves manipulating. [TS]

00:00:46   What you can conceptualize as invisible zero with formatting characters [TS]

00:00:50   and what was the one that actually had them with the word star. [TS]

00:00:52   One of the old text editors one of the old word process is really all [TS]

00:00:55   but actually had invisible formatting characters and you can make them visible. Those are the days. [TS]

00:01:01   You can do that word I believe. And I thought Claire's works would do that. [TS]

00:01:04   I don't know if any of them still have a job. [TS]

00:01:06   You know [TS]

00:01:06   but there's one process actually were done that way these days on behind the scenes I have no idea how it works I'm [TS]

00:01:12   sure it's much more complicated than simple invisible forming characters but anyway. [TS]

00:01:15   Yeah you just have to learn how to bump the invisible bump the conceptual invisible formatting characters up against [TS]

00:01:22   each other to infect their neighbors. [TS]

00:01:24   Get their infection [TS]

00:01:24   and move it down it just well that was the problem as I was trying to invent just the Reddit related follow up and. [TS]

00:01:31   I was unfortunately indenting. All of the rest of the topics. [TS]

00:01:35   And I couldn't figure out how to uninfected I am not as good a doctors you are. [TS]

00:01:39   I know I saw that you know and you just gotta like it's going to find a part the looks the way you want [TS]

00:01:44   and use it to spread its correct looking as to its neighbors and its you know. [TS]

00:01:50   So this is like an outbreak I need to find the monkey and then that will solve all my problems. [TS]

00:01:54   Word sometimes would defeat me words. [TS]

00:01:56   Sometimes in a word I could not figure out how to manipulate the invisible forces that control the formatting in that [TS]

00:02:02   just like delete everything started a new document. Right. [TS]

00:02:06   Because like even if you delete all the content and you try to like paste it back in [TS]

00:02:10   or type it in again it would like it would still obey them. [TS]

00:02:13   Like a homie out that they were likely the document still has the what is it the the essence. [TS]

00:02:19   Sense memory or whatever you want and that was that everything [TS]

00:02:22   or that literal million times the still has the essence of the old formatting. [TS]

00:02:28   You delete all the text when you put a text back the document remembers is actually used to be there. [TS]

00:02:34   Do you want timestamps to make your. Your chapter markers easier. Know the time stamps. [TS]

00:02:40   Move when I add it so it doesn't matter. Adding the chapter Marcus's only taking like five minutes. [TS]

00:02:46   Can I just point out that. [TS]

00:02:48   I think if we've received let's say twenty pieces of feedback with regard to the chapter markers. [TS]

00:02:53   Easily eighteen of which have somehow traced back to Germany. Oh at least. [TS]

00:02:58   I bet the other two that were in from Germany were people who were actually German just were living somewhere else [TS]

00:03:03   temporarily you know. Maybe German heritage. I don't know. It's so funny. [TS]

00:03:08   I don't know what it is with the Germans in their chapter markers but got to the everloving they really do. [TS]

00:03:12   It's funny because no one else really seems to care or even notice. No but. But the Germans. [TS]

00:03:17   Love them all they're all using they're all using a popular podcast plan that doesn't support chapter markers. [TS]

00:03:25   As I wonder what. So what clients do you support chapter markers you would know. I think I'm the only one who doesn't. [TS]

00:03:30   Actually I don't know really. I know the Apple one does to a limited degree. I mean it's easy because. [TS]

00:03:37   There's actually an A.P.I. In A.V. Player to just fetch chapters and it supports. Almost every format. The thout there. [TS]

00:03:44   In a at least a basic way. And I actually tried it. Briefly and. [TS]

00:03:50   It had an issue where it would just say it would just right over random memory. [TS]

00:03:55   Garbage with certain files that had a better artwork in their chapters. [TS]

00:03:59   So it would just destroy the memory and corrupt everything and eventually the app would crash [TS]

00:04:03   when you were little like this one particular file and it's obviously it's not. [TS]

00:04:07   Well written enough to for me to you want to use. So I don't know. [TS]

00:04:10   You know you should do is whenever you're up for a new lease. You should spend. [TS]

00:04:17   You know the time leading up to then building chapter support. So when you return to Munich. To do. European delivery. [TS]

00:04:26   You will be. You will be war. Welcome to they are like a god. If you have a work. [TS]

00:04:32   I think so because if there's anything the Germans love in the entire world other than order. It is chapters. [TS]

00:04:39   I really do like the Germans. Though. [TS]

00:04:41   Actually I do too as much as I'm poking fun I really do is how I feel like these are like my people think they're there [TS]

00:04:46   nerds who drive well and are on time to things [TS]

00:04:49   and again as much as I'm poking fun I couldn't possibly agree with you more. [TS]

00:04:55   And as a tall just as in the chat chapters are a form of order. That's a fair point. [TS]

00:05:01   Well I just I've never used chapters myself like as a podcast listener. [TS]

00:05:05   And maybe that's because I spent the last two to two and a half years [TS]

00:05:08   or whatever it's been using my own app which doesn't support them. [TS]

00:05:11   But I've just never been compelled to [TS]

00:05:14   and there's also a major supply issue where very few pod casts use chapter marks [TS]

00:05:20   and I don't what are people using to put them in. [TS]

00:05:24   I know there's a web service called off on it that does a lot of Pi cats post-processing stuff and they offer it. [TS]

00:05:29   But that's like a paid monthly kind of service and. And I know Jason is now uses that for clockwise. [TS]

00:05:35   But beyond that like there used to be an Apple two I think a garage band or something that they discontinued years ago. [TS]

00:05:42   So I don't know what. I don't know. Like I think there's two problems here there's that there's a tools problem and a. [TS]

00:05:48   And a client problem and that combines to form. At least part of the demand problem. So I don't know. We'll see. [TS]

00:05:56   So what magic are you using. I'm solving the tools problem first. [TS]

00:06:01   And we're going to move on right so you probably do some follow up. [TS]

00:06:06   John want to tell us about what the Such an adult has said about your hatred of Apple. That's now bodies. [TS]

00:06:13   There's a review from a while. [TS]

00:06:15   Injury or from while ago where a sudden Adele is talking to Mary Jo Foley is eating out and a long interview [TS]

00:06:21   and one I think we pulled a snippet from that interview before which is why I had read it. [TS]

00:06:25   But I pulled out this other sniff at the thought was interesting. This is such an delicate he says. [TS]

00:06:30   You've got to remember even the Apple regeneration started with colorful IMAX. [TS]

00:06:34   So let us first get the colorful IMAX I think with what we're doing with Lumia where at that stage. [TS]

00:06:39   I want to do good devices that people like and then we will go on to doing the next thing [TS]

00:06:42   and the next thing I thought this is really interesting to see the C.E.O. Of Microsoft. [TS]

00:06:47   Basically like intentionally pull themselves poll Microsoft down to Apple's level to say we are way microscope were [TS]

00:06:56   Apple was before their resurgence. We are at such an incredible low point. [TS]

00:07:04   That works where the stage where we're going to make some calls a lie masks we're not the stage where I can the i Pod. [TS]

00:07:10   We're now the stage for making the i Phone of the i Pad where the stage where we are making the colorful IMAX which I [TS]

00:07:15   think is sandbagging in the highest degree because Microsoft is nowhere near the low point that Apple was [TS]

00:07:22   when Steve Jobs came back or [TS]

00:07:23   when they were introducing the IMAX nowhere near that low like financially like that the quality [TS]

00:07:30   and number of products they haven't that they sell. And just like in every other respect but this is. [TS]

00:07:35   This is how the C.E.O. Of Microsoft is positioning. His company to say. [TS]

00:07:40   We want you to lower your expectations of us like guess like think of us like we're out to was like you know give us a [TS]

00:07:47   chance word. You know. [TS]

00:07:48   Maybe we're not blowing your way [TS]

00:07:49   but we just want make something cool the kind of catch the imagination is kind of popular [TS]

00:07:52   and that's what we think we're doing with these new them your funds I know they're not the next i Phone But you know. [TS]

00:07:57   Come on give us a break think Apple a while to really interesting strategy. [TS]

00:08:01   Something that I think also that someone from the old Microsoft like Gates or bomber. [TS]

00:08:06   Could not pull off just because since they were the people in charge when Microsoft was king of the world. [TS]

00:08:11   It would sound weird for them to say. Microsoft is basically were Apple is in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. [TS]

00:08:18   You know. Because they were just. [TS]

00:08:20   I don't know if the words could even come out of their mouth [TS]

00:08:22   or if they could put themselves that there's been a new C.E.O. [TS]

00:08:24   Can say that and I thought it was an interesting strategy. [TS]

00:08:29   Her how they're trying to position their company to the outside world. That's an odd analogy but. [TS]

00:08:35   I mean it's sort of makes sense. Why did you tell us about the trim saga that will never end. [TS]

00:08:41   And I think we're talking about the same song popular something that has these and their. [TS]

00:08:46   People are filing bugs against them and then Samsung was like. [TS]

00:08:49   That's not our problem because you're using in Linux and Windows isn't a supported platform and people got angry [TS]

00:08:54   and then we didn't know there were problems with this properly assess these are not. [TS]

00:08:58   The latest development and that saga is that Samsung says it's not a problem with our firmware [TS]

00:09:03   or drives it's a problem of the Linux kernel and here's a patch to help fix it. [TS]

00:09:07   I don't know what the actual problem is maybe their patch to the kernel works around. A problem. [TS]

00:09:12   And Samsung's as a speed. [TS]

00:09:14   There's another link that's eternally being put off in the show notes for some Macin an article is trying to test these [TS]

00:09:21   popular S.S.T. Than I was ten and see if they can create a corruption. [TS]

00:09:26   And I don't know how rigorous their testing is [TS]

00:09:28   but I would say this whole thing is still a question mark to me because just because Samsung says the bug into Linux [TS]

00:09:33   curling provides a patch to work around it. Was it a Linux kernel bug. [TS]

00:09:38   I guess that is their patch just working around a bug in the firmware. [TS]

00:09:41   And is any of this relevant at all to people running Austin. I don't know. So still. [TS]

00:09:46   I'm just hanging back and not bothering with the term stuff and get my fingers crossed. Spoke strategy. [TS]

00:09:52   Pays off for him. That's a reference by the way. Marco to tell us about a year or so your option dilemma. [TS]

00:09:59   Yes so in last week's episode. I talked about how I was having an issue with deciding overcast. [TS]

00:10:07   Cellular download preferences. Because I'm adding streaming for the next big version and. [TS]

00:10:13   There is a question of should streaming have its own preference and I already had these two other preferences and. [TS]

00:10:18   How do I combine these these possibly three preferences in any way that makes sense and is [TS]

00:10:23   and is understandable by users and doesn't have too much clutter in the options and complex and everything. [TS]

00:10:28   And I explain that part of the reason why. [TS]

00:10:31   So right now I have in the current version there's there's two options one of them is download oversight of it which [TS]

00:10:36   makes sense. The other one is basically like. Try to do anything over cellular. [TS]

00:10:40   And the reason why I couldn't just rely on the system toggle for that was because of what I considered a bug in the [TS]

00:10:46   system reachability framework which is that of. If a user had disabled. [TS]

00:10:49   Sell access completely for the app in Iowa settings which you can do per app. [TS]

00:10:55   The system would still tell the app that it was connected to the Internet via cellular. [TS]

00:10:59   And so the app would then have the appetite. [TS]

00:11:01   No way to tell that it wasn't that it wasn't allowed to use this connection. So if it tried to use the connection. [TS]

00:11:07   It would show there annoying box to the user saying. [TS]

00:11:09   Cellular data is disabled for this act you can change that in statics [TS]

00:11:13   and my feeling was it should be the way it used to be which is that if somebody disabled sell access for you [TS]

00:11:17   and i OS seven. It would. The system would report to your app that it was just offline. [TS]

00:11:23   When it was on cellular so you could just avoid doing things and not sure that stupid alert to people. Turns out in. [TS]

00:11:29   I was a point for that bug is still there but I O. S. Nine. It's fixed. [TS]

00:11:34   So and I was nine I did some testing over the last couple days. [TS]

00:11:37   And I us nine if US as the app use the reachability framework to test the connection. If the users on cellular. [TS]

00:11:45   And you aren't allowed to use it properly reports it as offline. [TS]

00:11:49   Which is the way it used to be the way it should have always been so. [TS]

00:11:53   This lets me remove that second setting I have now which is the. It's called sync over cellular. [TS]

00:12:00   Lets me remove that setting completely. Which is great. So now I only will have the download over Siler option. In the. [TS]

00:12:09   In the downloader area. And I don't need. [TS]

00:12:11   I don't need a streaming option at all because streaming just rely on the system setting if you don't want overcast use [TS]

00:12:16   the slow data just disable in system settings. And it's so I've gone from two settings in the current version. [TS]

00:12:23   To potentially needing three in the next version. But instead going down to one. Which is fantastic. [TS]

00:12:29   Why don't you need the settings anymore if you're saying the next version is not going to run I was eight. [TS]

00:12:34   I'm saying I will no longer care about a minor annoyance details that will affect very very few people. It's not worth. [TS]

00:12:40   Keep it like so for instance. The current version of the app also has a setting in the ticket details. [TS]

00:12:46   Called a streak celebration. This is that I've actually had since. Since one point zero. When you seek an overcast. [TS]

00:12:53   If you hit. Seek back or forward by like you know the. [TS]

00:12:56   Thirty seconds [TS]

00:12:56   or whatever if you hit that a bunch of times in a row like it so that you're doing like you know more than one per [TS]

00:13:03   second. Basically effort it was awful and threshold is. But if you do more than one of those per second after a few. [TS]

00:13:08   I start increasing the interval of their seeking by. [TS]

00:13:11   So it lets you if you if you're in a situation where you only have access to seek back and forward features. [TS]

00:13:17   Like if you're in a car and it has but integration. [TS]

00:13:19   Or if you have headphones with those buttons on him or remote with the with those buttons on it. [TS]

00:13:23   If you want to seek a long distance. In a track. It lets you get there a lot faster. [TS]

00:13:29   So if you seek a whole bunch of times in a row it'll go like you know. [TS]

00:13:32   Thirty thirty thirty forty five fifty sixty ninety like it will accelerate up up up to a certain ceiling. [TS]

00:13:39   And I've always had an option to disable that. Since one point zero. And all and that option sinks to the server. [TS]

00:13:45   So that sinks to your account. So I can actually tell him new people use it. And I've been watching and. [TS]

00:13:52   I brought up on Twitter few months back hey can I just remove this option. And I learned that most. [TS]

00:13:58   Most of the respondents didn't really understand what it did. Whether they said yes remove it or. No keep it. [TS]

00:14:04   Most of them seem like they were misunderstanding. What it did. [TS]

00:14:07   And so I decided that wasn't an option anymore and I looked at I was at the server [TS]

00:14:12   and usage of it was under one percent. People who change the default. Which is on. [TS]

00:14:17   So in two point zero That options was gone. [TS]

00:14:19   I'm not going to keep setting around and what is a very small setting screen. [TS]

00:14:22   That's used by fewer than one percent of the users that's that's not worth the complexity. [TS]

00:14:26   So back to the cellular thing. This. You know. [TS]

00:14:31   People who are going to disable cellular in the System Preferences completely for the app. [TS]

00:14:37   I can't measure that right now. I'm guessing it's probably not below one percent but I bet it's pretty low. [TS]

00:14:42   So people who are going to disable that. [TS]

00:14:44   And also who are going to be running I was eight for longer than the next couple of months. Not worth it. [TS]

00:14:49   It's not working in a setting around just just to have them to have them be able to avoid seeing the cell data disable [TS]

00:14:57   dialog box. As often as they could. You know it's. It's such a small gain for so few people. [TS]

00:15:05   For such a short time that it's just not worth it. Also I'm not taking the move to I O. S. [TS]

00:15:10   Nine as something that needs to be very carefully and slowly done. [TS]

00:15:13   As soon as I was not his out I'm probably going to lose nothing that requires it [TS]

00:15:16   or at least soon afterwards depending on you know what compelling reasons I have because the factors I was nine runs on [TS]

00:15:24   every device I was eight runs on. Jail recurs haven't ever going to yet I don't think but I don't care. [TS]

00:15:29   I don't see you don't care at all what gel breakers can run. I don't follow that. [TS]

00:15:33   I don't need to fall that I think if you jailbreak. That's up to you to follow and. [TS]

00:15:37   I can't waste my time on that because jailbreaking is just a nightmare of support complexity and it's. [TS]

00:15:42   And it's just not worth it. So regardless I don't care about jailbreak ability. And so. [TS]

00:15:50   And people who like hold on to old versions forever because they just don't like the new version I don't really cater [TS]

00:15:54   to them either. I feel like if your device can run. I.O.'s whatever. I don't feel bad. Requiring I us whatever. [TS]

00:16:02   Even if you choose not to install us whatever if you choose to keep the old version around at the I consider that like [TS]

00:16:08   OK Well part of your cost of doing that is you're going to lose. [TS]

00:16:11   You know future updates to absent require all the stuff. So anyway. That's how I feel but that was a question. [TS]

00:16:19   I was basically asking you if you're going to make a overcast I was nine only and you mentioned worked up to. Yeah. [TS]

00:16:26   I mean right now. I'm building two point zero against Iowa eight. [TS]

00:16:29   Because I would like to release it before I was nine is released. I don't know if I will. [TS]

00:16:35   Like I don't know I don't know how be able to I'm trying. [TS]

00:16:37   I would like to really sort of soon as I can just to be clear the last time you said you want to release soon you ended [TS]

00:16:42   up a year later heard something like that. OK I just wanna make sure all the same page here. No actually what. [TS]

00:16:50   What is motivating me to want to release the soon. Is actually the playlist reordering bug. [TS]

00:16:55   Because it's going to be it's too complicated to back port the fix to that is the one point zero branch and. [TS]

00:17:01   So I would like to Atlanta I'm actually planning on now. Cutting a few features from two point I was initially launch. [TS]

00:17:07   Just so I can get it out faster. And then adding back those features later. In like two point one or never. [TS]

00:17:12   Our first punch of this week is need. [TS]

00:17:15   Need is a curated retailer and publication for men [TS]

00:17:18   and the people behind need recently launched foremost a purveyor of small batch American made clothing for men [TS]

00:17:23   and women. So this is a great need is run by our friend. Malik Zander. [TS]

00:17:28   He's a really really super nice guy he was in case you guys don't know not only was he on. Is he on the. [TS]

00:17:34   The Bonanza pod cast. But he's also he was the British voice in our A.T.P. Shirt. Parity promo. [TS]

00:17:40   So want to thank him first of all for coming in last minute with us because we had some a dropout and he was awesome [TS]

00:17:45   and picked it up so. Thank you Madeleine Genner anyway. Need is as I said. A curated retailer and publication. [TS]

00:17:52   And it's all mostly. They sell men's clothing. [TS]

00:17:55   They also sell literature furniture coffee and more for discerning shoppers. So each month. They cure rate and sell. [TS]

00:18:02   And sometimes even design a limited selection of these products. [TS]

00:18:06   So rather than offering an overwhelming selection of everything under the sun all of once. [TS]

00:18:11   Need only sells ten to fifteen products. Exclusively each month. [TS]

00:18:15   Whilst he's British So he says while so I will say while whilst also offering an ongoing array of essential. They have. [TS]

00:18:22   They have the monthly additions and they have essential sure always available. [TS]

00:18:26   Sony just launches latest collection Volume two point eight. Featuring items as diverse as responsibly made furniture. [TS]

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00:18:34   There's no subscriptions there's no services there's no boxes or stylists or other gimmicks. Instead. [TS]

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00:19:44   Now I don't know any of those words mean but Matt writes me that is a good thing do you know what those are. [TS]

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00:19:53   Check out need and formalised for men and women. [TS]

00:19:56   By visiting a need edition dot com and foremost edition dot com You can even say hello [TS]

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00:20:06   Never outsourced anybody crazy or bots. So anyway. [TS]

00:20:10   Thank you very much to Mel Xander and need addition and foremost edition dot com. Use Code. [TS]

00:20:15   Prefer all up at checkout to save twenty five percent off. Anything in the store. [TS]

00:20:19   The biggest discount they've ever offered and. Personally as a set match a really nice guy. [TS]

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00:20:48   and foremost edition dot com. Use Code pre follow up for twenty five percent off. [TS]

00:20:52   Thanks a lot to need and foremost for sponsoring our show. All right. [TS]

00:20:58   So we had a discussion about Reddit last episode and. We got some feedback about that we got nothing wrong. [TS]

00:21:07   We got nothing wrong nothing. [TS]

00:21:08   Gotten feedback about that we got less than I expected which I was kind of happy about and. [TS]

00:21:14   It was less vile than I expected which I'm super happy about. [TS]

00:21:17   But we've got we've got some new thoughts or some things to address perhaps. [TS]

00:21:23   John would you like to tell us about some of the things that you that you've learned discovered [TS]

00:21:26   or thought about since then. Back when this was in the follow up section. Same song go. [TS]

00:21:31   This topic I mean I thought of like removing a lot of it because I just listened to last week's episode. [TS]

00:21:38   And I was like Yeah I pretty much. I think I pretty much said everything I wanted to say on the topic. [TS]

00:21:42   And the reason I you know if I had all the solve them. [TS]

00:21:44   You know one feedback comes then I had corrections or the fault got there you know the normal pattern of stuff. [TS]

00:21:48   But then I listen to the episode and like [TS]

00:21:50   but in that episode I had so many disclaimers like at the end of the thing I was like. [TS]

00:21:54   I know I got most of the details wrong [TS]

00:21:56   but it's not the details that I'm talking about I'm trying to address the big picture blah blah blah people don't care [TS]

00:22:01   they still want to correct you know he does but just fine. [TS]

00:22:05   So I did in the end US didn't especially once Casey moved down to be a topic but there are a couple just straight out. [TS]

00:22:10   Factual things that I didn't. Later say that I knew I got wrong. [TS]

00:22:15   One of them was that Reddit is owned by condé Nast and that is no longer the case. [TS]

00:22:19   Link to a little faq about it's there where they were owned by Condon asked. [TS]

00:22:23   And then they were owned by kind of asses parent company. But then they were spun out and reincorporated independently. [TS]

00:22:30   And so according to this thing the best characterization might be to say that read it is a part sibling once removed of [TS]

00:22:35   condé Nast so well that totally clears things up. [TS]

00:22:38   That was something I did not know I got it wrong because every most the details I was just like wing it [TS]

00:22:42   and giving examples in every time I gave an example I was like I know that's probably not accurate or whatever. [TS]

00:22:46   I mean it makes it seem like I didn't read a lot about this. [TS]

00:22:49   When I did I just didn't write down or memorize the individual factors tried was trying to go big picture. [TS]

00:22:54   And that brings me to the next. Pick which is the FEW me mildly. Mildly negative. [TS]

00:23:01   That the feedback we got seemed to me to be treating all three of us. [TS]

00:23:05   As if we had never heard of read like what is this crazy Reddit thing have you heard about this and. [TS]

00:23:10   I don't know about you two guys who are younger than I am but like. If I give the impression that you know. [TS]

00:23:15   We'll have we don't we're not read it regulates we don't go to the site. [TS]

00:23:18   We are not part of the community we don't consider ourselves read it or whatever [TS]

00:23:21   but it's not as if read it as this new thing that we just learned about when this controversy came so I went [TS]

00:23:26   and looked up my info at least read it was founded on June twenty third two thousand [TS]

00:23:31   and five according to Wikipedia which is never wrong. [TS]

00:23:33   My account at Reddit was created on August eighth two thousand five hundred forty six days after it was founded so I'm [TS]

00:23:38   sorry that I did not get in on the ground floor read it. [TS]

00:23:41   The site was around the whole forty six days before I joined and was a member for the next ten years. Like again. [TS]

00:23:47   I'm not I'm not a regular member read it right. I do not go there frequently. But I think the. [TS]

00:23:55   The most angry characters ation as a US being entirely at a touch for the read it or just haven't discovered read it. [TS]

00:24:02   Due to the Ellen pal controversy is wildly inaccurate. [TS]

00:24:06   Yeah I think part of what we were trying to describe is expressly what an outsider thinks of the situation. [TS]

00:24:12   And I gree with you John I don't think any of us painted us as experts on what the intricacies of how red it works [TS]

00:24:19   internally. Either for users or moderators or employees. [TS]

00:24:24   But I know that we were all speaking more of hay from from outside [TS]

00:24:29   or kind of third party that's not really invested in this looking in. It looks kind of gross. And I stand by that. [TS]

00:24:36   Yeah like that's the perspective we were giving as a casual like not as people who are confused by what this whole [TS]

00:24:41   crazy right thing is but it's just like there's a community it exists. [TS]

00:24:44   And we're not really that involved in it we know about it we dip in and out of it we see it right. [TS]

00:24:50   But you know and we're not. And I think. I think that's most people like most people are not hardcore read. [TS]

00:24:55   Use is read it has tremendous traffic. Only a small portion of that tremendous traffic. [TS]

00:25:00   Are the sort of very dedicated people who are very invested in read it as a community that's the nature of any high [TS]

00:25:07   traffic site. You know. [TS]

00:25:08   You don't have millions [TS]

00:25:09   and millions of people all of whom are super invested in you that's just that's just you know the numbers right. [TS]

00:25:14   So our perspective as sort of outsiders outside so I think I understand the phenomenon or read it [TS]

00:25:20   and sites like read it and that I mix of online communities. [TS]

00:25:24   But are not so invested in it that sort of any discussion of any negative aspect of read it is seen as a condemnation [TS]

00:25:31   of all members of read it like that's not where we were coming from at all and [TS]

00:25:35   but we were we were giving an outside perspective and. [TS]

00:25:38   I think I certainly was not particularly interested in the specific details of whatever the controversy of the day is [TS]

00:25:45   about he said he said and she said this. And these people harassing this person. [TS]

00:25:50   And these are the internal politics they're just trying to sell like is written as Reddit a place that we feel like we [TS]

00:25:56   would like to hang out. You know and if not why not. Yeah. I agree with you. [TS]

00:26:02   The only somewhat decent feedback Well that's not fair that the feedback that struck me most that we got was someone [TS]

00:26:10   who said in so many words. [TS]

00:26:12   You know you were complaining and moaning about read it and how gross read it is [TS]

00:26:16   but a lot of gross stuff happens on Twitter and nobody. [TS]

00:26:19   None of the three of us really complained and moaned about Twitter last episode and. [TS]

00:26:24   I didn't really made me think for men and I don't have any good answers. Maybe because I am. [TS]

00:26:31   Pretty invested in Twitter. And I'm invested in what I like to think of as the good corner of Twitter. [TS]

00:26:37   I don't see a lot of the just absolutely vile terrible discussing things that happen on Twitter because they happen. [TS]

00:26:42   They definitely happen. But I don't get exposed to it yet. [TS]

00:26:46   I feel like I hear a lot more often about the terrible violent disgusting things that happen on Reddit. [TS]

00:26:54   And I was curious. John or Marco if you guys had any thoughts about why Twitter is OK but read it isn't. [TS]

00:27:01   Well they're both disasters we just know what I mean I think it's. [TS]

00:27:06   You can look at both of those and say Wow both of these are absolutely horrible dealing with abusive people. [TS]

00:27:13   That's that's just the way it is in fact Twitter might even be worse I don't know I don't know enough about right to [TS]

00:27:17   say. Twitter's really bad about it. I know that. We did talk about it last show. [TS]

00:27:22   And I mentioned as it was the objection [TS]

00:27:24   and I said like I was feeling some trepidation about going to read it because I felt like I was kind of tacitly [TS]

00:27:29   supporting an organization that provides a home for. You know communities that. [TS]

00:27:35   That I the make me uncomfortable that I don't like right. And I didn't feel that with Twitter. And I think for me. [TS]

00:27:44   The differences and I'd mention like well because you know. [TS]

00:27:47   I don't see any ads on Twitter so what am I really do is supporting them but you know. [TS]

00:27:51   This feedback from Don is right that like by my participation in Twitter I'm still supporting him whether I see ads [TS]

00:27:56   or not right and I think the reason I feel differently about is not so much with my investment in Twitter. [TS]

00:28:01   But that for as bad as Twitter is about dealing with harassment. They. [TS]

00:28:08   They have policies in place that if you were to look at the policies you would say. These are good. [TS]

00:28:13   And they show that Twitter doesn't want this thing to happen. They're really bad implementing those policies. [TS]

00:28:18   Many times their implementation again I like Oh we have a way for you to report people harassment will just lie about [TS]

00:28:23   and like the form of require revealing your personal information of the person you're harassing [TS]

00:28:27   and they would their decision making process but I would not be great on it but like the fact that the Twitter C.E.O. [TS]

00:28:32   Comes out and said. We are really bad at this and we need to get better. [TS]

00:28:36   And that they have taken positive steps to make them to make their company better. Dealing with the shows that they. [TS]

00:28:42   This is the direction they want to go and it's not as if the C.E.O. [TS]

00:28:46   Of Twitter is saying we're really bad at it [TS]

00:28:48   and that's by design because we don't want to clamp down too much we want to make sure people feel free to say whatever [TS]

00:28:52   they want to say. That's not the message coming out of Twitter at all. Execution was still bad. [TS]

00:28:57   But everything that I have done and everything they have said and done is saying there. [TS]

00:29:01   It's aspirational are saying we want to be over there. [TS]

00:29:04   We want people to feel more welcome on Twitter we want to deal with their Assman probably want to stop this from [TS]

00:29:09   happening. And here are the things that we're going to do. [TS]

00:29:11   And then you know they tried to something people complain or whatever. [TS]

00:29:14   And the thing that's most upsetting to me I read it is the aspirational thing does I don't agree with their aspirations [TS]

00:29:19   to write it says we want our community like this and I OK Well that's. [TS]

00:29:23   I don't like that I don't like that goal state I think Twitter's goal state if you were to talk to the C.E.O. [TS]

00:29:28   Of a what do you want Twitter to be like What are you trying to reach. [TS]

00:29:31   I would agree more with what they're going for in terms of a place where people feel like they're free from abusive [TS]

00:29:38   behavior or have free from but have the tools to deal with abusive behavior right. [TS]

00:29:43   That Twitter wants to provide that whereas read it seems to want to provide a safe haven for people to trade ideas [TS]

00:29:51   and behave in ways that I that I don't like right. [TS]

00:29:55   And again just like I'm glad owners brought this up to the credit of all the people of all the various Reddit people [TS]

00:30:00   who have listened to this thing and sent feedback. Nobody has brought out the old. You know. [TS]

00:30:06   Old saw about like you're trying to say they read it doesn't have a right to exist like I'm so glad that I mean is that [TS]

00:30:13   speaks to that if the small number of better people listening to our show or the. [TS]

00:30:17   The general intelligence people who are read it. Not to bring out that ridiculous argument. [TS]

00:30:21   Like I tried very hard in the last show to frame it as. Does this feel something. [TS]

00:30:27   Does this community feel like something that I want to participate and participate in why [TS]

00:30:31   and why not everyone is free to make the community they want to make. [TS]

00:30:35   All I'm talking about is does it feel like something that I want to join in [TS]

00:30:37   and my secondary point which I think we're getting a little bit was like. [TS]

00:30:42   Does the community that they say they want to make is that the type of thing that I think would be broadly appealing [TS]

00:30:49   and I think that's that's where you're going to tell you know like Marco are not alone can get a podcast on a [TS]

00:30:53   hypothetical. Podcast network. That's the type of decision where you can say. [TS]

00:30:58   If you did that most people wouldn't care. [TS]

00:31:02   Like that that is something that excludes that that would be brought the appealing. [TS]

00:31:06   Because it's not a system of government is just a private web site and a private sideband that type of of content. [TS]

00:31:12   Ever Be Like aren't. You know I'm fine with that like. That is a broadly appealing decision. [TS]

00:31:16   Less broadly appealing banning vegetarians. [TS]

00:31:18   Right then I was like Well now you're really narrowing your audience because if you decide that's what you want your [TS]

00:31:24   site. That's fine but a lot of people are going to rightly say. [TS]

00:31:27   Now that's getting to be you know like that that the whole idea that there are that there are standard sort of [TS]

00:31:33   community standards. [TS]

00:31:34   Like human community standards whether they're local or state or country [TS]

00:31:38   or international community standards that mean if you want something to appeal to the broadest number of people. [TS]

00:31:44   Everyone's OK with you excluding these ideas misbehavior. [TS]

00:31:48   But once you start getting what you know when you start crossing over into like well that just seems like arbitrary [TS]

00:31:52   and weird like not allowing left handed people. That's you know that.. [TS]

00:31:57   That seems that doesn't seem weird but not allowing the K.K.K. Yeah. [TS]

00:32:02   Sure go ahead get banned them I don't like I think that's OK. [TS]

00:32:04   They were they were bothersome Anyway I don't like those ideas right. And that. [TS]

00:32:09   Maybe that bothers a lot of people especially the sort of logical mindset of like no you can't do that a lot all ideas [TS]

00:32:14   are allowed no ideas if you can't. [TS]

00:32:15   How do you describe that what's different about the gay Hey and left handed people like. [TS]

00:32:19   They there are just it's equivalently arbitrary right there just ideas man. Yeah and I think that. [TS]

00:32:24   That brings down to the reticule and I have someone like to with the current to Reddit C.E.O. [TS]

00:32:30   Steve Huffman sped on and read it's a it's a nice thing with you [TS]

00:32:34   and I had the best thing about of course the sinking of Marcos complaints about the giant intend indented conversations. [TS]

00:32:39   Nice person emailed the stock for I lost the name because it's somewhere in the in our email but. The Q. [TS]

00:32:46   and A is like a bunch of questions and then with numbers. And then the answers follow them. [TS]

00:32:51   So it's like questions one through seven questions one to three acre you know and then [TS]

00:32:55   and then down below there are the answers. And then I personally emailed us. [TS]

00:32:59   Did the same thing and put the question then answer the question then answer instead of a giant list of questions [TS]

00:33:05   and then a giant list of numbered answers and you have to keep like mapping back and forth in your mind [TS]

00:33:08   or keep scrolling back operates a section. To question number two the question was blog now scrolled answer. [TS]

00:33:15   Read it just really is not a totally aside from the a policy issues. [TS]

00:33:22   It's not a really welcoming site for people who don't like navigating giant walls of indented text anyway. [TS]

00:33:29   A few items from this Q. [TS]

00:33:31   and I which I think as it doesn't in any thing down like they're still trying to work out what the trying to do. [TS]

00:33:36   But I picked out a few examples that spoke to the thing that I find unappealing. About Reddit. [TS]

00:33:43   So again this is the C.E.O. Answering some questions. Mocking and calling people stupid is not harassment. Right. [TS]

00:33:50   That was an answer to which question I guess grow up and find him. [TS]

00:33:55   And regards a sub read it for mocking another group what is the policy on them blah blah blah so. [TS]

00:33:59   Knocking calling people stupid is not harassing [TS]

00:34:00   and I assume that it's defined as not harassment because either implicitly [TS]

00:34:05   or earlier they're saying well harassment is something we don't want. [TS]

00:34:08   And mocking and calling people stupid is not harassment. [TS]

00:34:11   Turning this position around but it basically means is if you come to participate on Reddit. [TS]

00:34:19   It very well may happen that you get mocked and called stupid. But fun like that yet again. [TS]

00:34:24   You know you define the rules of the community whatever you want right. [TS]

00:34:27   But I would compare this to the our technical policy to talk about the last show where our technical thing is no ad [TS]

00:34:32   hominem attacks. Have a discussion on the topic at hand. Disagree as by only as you want about do you know whether the. [TS]

00:34:40   Whether all to vector M.M.X. Is better. [TS]

00:34:42   But no mocking people are calling them stupid don't attack the person in fact the ideas. [TS]

00:34:46   That's the are secular Hamann policy. Right. [TS]

00:34:49   And I don't think our second has a super high minded site wherever has good behavior it is pretty rough [TS]

00:34:53   and tumble crowd there right. It's also probably male dominated. [TS]

00:34:56   It's got all the sort of similar path ologies of the right stuff. And yet our second guy has this rule that says. [TS]

00:35:02   Don't attack the president actually ideas. Read they're saying. Mocking calling people stupid not harassment. [TS]

00:35:06   That's something we think is acceptable behavior in all of our communities it's going to happen it's going to happen to [TS]

00:35:11   you. You can't ban someone for doing it just because they call you stupid or mock you. That. I find that distasteful. [TS]

00:35:19   I don't think that's beyond the pale working like I'll now your side is not broadly appealing. But I think it does. [TS]

00:35:24   I mean like Twitter. If you come to Twitter and people are going to mock you and call you stupid. [TS]

00:35:28   You're going to want something. [TS]

00:35:30   You're not going to like that you're going to want to not see their tweets your own email to block them. [TS]

00:35:33   And if they keep doing it then it might be Congress and but anyway they're categorizing. It's not harassment. [TS]

00:35:38   If you will do what if you come on to read it and everybody says that you're stupid but everyone always says it wants. [TS]

00:35:44   And every time you appear and post anything on Reddit. Each individual person on the entire form. [TS]

00:35:51   Knocks your calls you stupid but only does it once. That's I guess still not harassment. [TS]

00:35:55   Your experience or read it is that any time you appear. No one addresses anything you say. [TS]

00:35:59   But they merely downloads you down but you call you stupid and knock you. [TS]

00:36:02   That's not a particularly healthy or welcoming community where you. [TS]

00:36:06   Where that I would want to participate and you know that someone there would have to think they're defining. [TS]

00:36:10   Another item. Filling someone's inbox of pms private messages saying kill yourself is harassment. [TS]

00:36:16   Calling someone stupid on a public forum is not again now it's like. [TS]

00:36:19   If you fill their mbox of private messages that only they can see saying kill yourself. That's harassment. [TS]

00:36:23   But if you just call them stupid in public. That's not that's doesn't make any sense to me either outlining behaviors. [TS]

00:36:29   What they're basically saying is if you're just. [TS]

00:36:30   If you're just telling people private message and saying mean things to them that's that's harassment. [TS]

00:36:34   But if you're just saying in public and you say it once it's OK. And again. [TS]

00:36:38   They can define the they can figure out what they want the rules to be. [TS]

00:36:41   This is the things that I read that make me feel like. This is not some place that I would like to hang out. [TS]

00:36:46   Because I'm not interested in watching people call each other names even if I'm not involved in an interested in seeing [TS]

00:36:51   people mock each other and call each other stupid I'm interested in an exchange of ideas. [TS]

00:36:57   I don't think any of this makes read it. Broadly unappealing. [TS]

00:37:02   But the type of communities that can fit within the rules that they're laying down a lot of those communities are [TS]

00:37:09   broadly unappealing. And I think it's like. [TS]

00:37:12   If you follow the letter of the law as read it appears to be defining things you can have a community that is just [TS]

00:37:17   terrible that all it is is a bunch of people reinforcing their own really bad ideas. [TS]

00:37:21   It was another really good money [TS]

00:37:22   or as the number one thing was that harboring unpopular ideologies is not a reason for banning. [TS]

00:37:27   Which sounds great it's like exactly like you know what. Just because my ideal. [TS]

00:37:31   Ideology is unpopular I shouldn't be banned. I think when people read that and read it but they have in their mind is. [TS]

00:37:37   If I think enterprise is the best Star Trek series. I shouldn't be banned. That is definitely an unpopular. [TS]

00:37:43   That is an unpopular idea that enterprise has the best are Trek series and so that's kind of what's in their mind yeah. [TS]

00:37:49   Why should I be banned as I'm just you know the tyranny of the majority why should I have to agree with everybody else [TS]

00:37:53   is supposed to be a free and open exchange of ideas. Harboring unpopular ideologies not a reason for banning right. [TS]

00:37:59   But ideologies are different than just ideas or statements or opinions. Harboring unpopular. [TS]

00:38:04   There's lots of unpopular ideologies that you would say are not reasons for Bang. But if your unpopular ideology. [TS]

00:38:11   Is that all black people should be slaves. That is a different unpopular ideology. [TS]

00:38:15   Then you think there should be a flat tax. Of ninety percent and all Americans right. [TS]

00:38:20   To those [TS]

00:38:21   and from from a good sort of logical start those are just both unpopular ideologies Why should one be banned in another [TS]

00:38:26   not be banned. [TS]

00:38:27   It's all up to a kind of community you want to raise to make especially if you had rules about against like attacking [TS]

00:38:33   the idea not the person. [TS]

00:38:34   I think you could have a community in which that person is really in favor of the ninety percent flat tax on all [TS]

00:38:39   Americans could have a reasonable discussion or debate about his or her position. [TS]

00:38:47   And the person who thinks all black people should be slaves is never going to have a reasonable debate about it like [TS]

00:38:51   they are different by their nature and I think anyone can tell that they're different. But the rules. [TS]

00:38:57   According to letter of the rules they're both unpopular ideologies and neither one is a reason for banning [TS]

00:39:01   and that's the type of community the read it seems to be trying to create. And you know. [TS]

00:39:06   Go for it like that that's a bomb makers on the make That's why if that's what I'm getting at when I say [TS]

00:39:10   when I read their sort of goal state. What. [TS]

00:39:13   What are we trying to make Reddit become like they're still working on the details and that's [TS]

00:39:16   when I got to have it all figured out how to cite only ten years old you know take your time. [TS]

00:39:22   It's this that's what repel any and I think. Like I said. [TS]

00:39:26   I think the rule sort of as there as there involving them now. [TS]

00:39:30   Allow for a lot of things that would definitely be beyond what regular people want to get involved in. [TS]

00:39:38   And I guess the final only final item I have on this is a couple people saying the bad stuff on Reddit doesn't affect [TS]

00:39:43   me some people saying the bad stuff I read it does affect them and their thinking of pulling back. [TS]

00:39:49   There is something to be said about some bread it's that you don't go to not affecting your life. [TS]

00:39:54   Read it with the cat pictures. Right. And I think this gets back to like it all of red it's you know. [TS]

00:40:00   Are all people read a bad No I was out the vast vast majority of people who are heavily participate even like the super [TS]

00:40:05   heavy users. [TS]

00:40:06   That may just want to take out pictures man like you know it's all good likeness great forms there in the where they [TS]

00:40:11   discuss interesting things like tons of great stuff on Reddit is a case of. [TS]

00:40:16   The rules that allow all that great stuff to bloom on farm on farm on read it also allows them bad stuff. [TS]

00:40:22   And you don't want to think about the bad stuff. And you don't want to see it. [TS]

00:40:26   But sometimes those people wander over to your and if i even if they don't wander over. [TS]

00:40:30   You know you're participating in a system that provides a little incubate air for these people to reinforce their own [TS]

00:40:36   ideas and recruit new people and even if they stay within the letter of the law. On the read the sobriquet stuff. [TS]

00:40:44   It's basically an organization. Tool for things that you don't want to happen. Like. [TS]

00:40:49   So fun maybe that you know each other privately about inciting violence maybe they. [TS]

00:40:53   They may like her privately about doctoring people about harassing [TS]

00:40:56   and I do all things I was always going to don't do it on Reddit it's fine like what do you think these communities [TS]

00:41:00   there are about like they're just hateful. Right. [TS]

00:41:02   And if you are on Reddit sometime people who bought it like I stick to the cat. Picture. Read some bread and I'm fine. [TS]

00:41:09   And I don't associate with them at all. I don't think the cat picture Reddit people are tainted by the other people. [TS]

00:41:14   But they are participating in a system that allows for that whereas if you're on Twitter. [TS]

00:41:19   You're participating in system that would like not to allow for that but. [TS]

00:41:22   But does because they're incompetent about in forcing it so I think. I think that is a fine line there like. [TS]

00:41:27   It's not clear cut. It is definitely not clear cut but I do like where Twitter says it's trying to go. And so far. [TS]

00:41:35   Where read it says it's trying to go. Does and doesn't match up with what I prefer. [TS]

00:41:41   It just seems like they pride themselves in these decisions that. Like you I find kind of distasteful and. [TS]

00:41:49   It doesn't take a very big logical leap to realize that. [TS]

00:41:54   Just like you said saying enterprise is the best Star Trek is a very very very different thing than saying that you [TS]

00:42:01   know all black people should be slaves it's just one is not an ideology that's why I said the flat tax the like the [TS]

00:42:06   ninety percent flat tax it's more of an ideology or like Marxism or communism or some really unpopular. [TS]

00:42:11   But it's an ideology. Right. I think that type of ideology. [TS]

00:42:15   Like there are certain there are certain ideologies that we collectively all agree as society are so distasteful that. [TS]

00:42:22   You know that they wouldn't. You wouldn't want them to be. You don't want them to be part of your community. Right. [TS]

00:42:29   Like people talking about that groups discussing it like again. Because your community is a private web site. [TS]

00:42:34   Obviously you know we're not the United States government people who go out to protest say what they want print what [TS]

00:42:39   they want to whatever you want to talk about what kind of community does Reddit want to create on their private website. [TS]

00:42:44   And the kind I want to create allows for things that. [TS]

00:42:47   That I don't like [TS]

00:42:48   and the enterprise example so that's why I'm trying to come up with something that is like non-controversial [TS]

00:42:53   but it's also an ideology that is super unpopular but. But I think. Perfectly OK to discuss in a constructive way. [TS]

00:43:00   You know I mean. Yeah absolutely. All right anything else on Reddit Marco you've been quiet for a while any thoughts. [TS]

00:43:07   I just don't care honestly there's a limited number of things I can care about. [TS]

00:43:11   And the drama of what seems like a really. Fragmented and sometimes good but sometimes extremely problematic. [TS]

00:43:20   Community that I'm not in. I can't like I came in with of care. I just can't. [TS]

00:43:27   It's not really the specifics of read it that I care about so much failing and I'm not sure that regular user [TS]

00:43:32   and I don't think it's like a linchpin of the Internet that if it. [TS]

00:43:36   If something bad happens to it's there or it diminishes that I'll be going to the world. [TS]

00:43:39   Oh that's not what read it or sink so well you know. I think I'll be fine. But anyway. It is. [TS]

00:43:45   I think it's just a good example of how. If you read like these guidelines. They all seem to make sense. [TS]

00:43:53   You know like you read them and you feel they're egalitarian they're high minded or whatever. But you know. [TS]

00:43:59   As [TS]

00:44:01   and credibly insightful podcast once said it's ramifications harboring unpopular ideology is not a reason for banning That [TS]

00:44:07   sounds awesome. Right. [TS]

00:44:09   What are the ramifications of that what do you what what what does that lead to what are these series of guidelines [TS]

00:44:14   laid to mocking calling people stupid is not harassment. What kind of community you build with just set of guidelines. [TS]

00:44:20   The shape of that community is not appealing to me. And I'm making you know. [TS]

00:44:25   I'm going to get called on this and I think it's true I'm making the extrapolation that. [TS]

00:44:29   Because this is not appealing to me. [TS]

00:44:31   And because I think I kind of understand what is generally accepted to be sort of like OK within polite society. [TS]

00:44:39   Certain things that fit within these the letter of these guidelines are things that most people will find distasteful [TS]

00:44:45   and would not want to be associated with right you know our coun town. [TS]

00:44:49   People do not want to be associated with that in general advertiser certainly don't write. And just general people. [TS]

00:44:55   If it gets too close to them or they realize what's going on back there. [TS]

00:44:58   You know definitely not something they want to deal with right. [TS]

00:45:01   And I think there is a standard for that it's hard to define. [TS]

00:45:04   That's why it's hard to write down rules and if you write down the rules for it's like all slippery slope [TS]

00:45:07   and you're going to ban everything right. But it's something that every community. [TS]

00:45:13   Of real people virtual communities everything. I think deals with much more naturally and and calmly like. [TS]

00:45:21   I can't think of another group of people did you know it's like. [TS]

00:45:24   If you had a bowling league and people came in the ball only it and him are mocking people and calling them stupid. [TS]

00:45:31   And you're like well that's not against. You know that's not like people tell your jokes I want to bowl of you anymore. [TS]

00:45:35   Right the way and then somehow online it's like well. [TS]

00:45:38   They must be allowed to do that because we need to allow them to put their head forwards into our database. [TS]

00:45:43   Otherwise we're monsters. You know free speech. Doesn't mean what you think it means. [TS]

00:45:49   Our second sponsor this week is Squarespace Squarespace of the on one platform. [TS]

00:45:54   That makes it fast and easy to create your own professional website portfolio or online store for a free trial [TS]

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00:46:04   Squarespace is simple and powerful with very intuitive an easy to use tools. [TS]

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00:46:14   With no coding required if you want to jump in [TS]

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00:46:22   or any device [TS]

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00:46:33   And all of this is powered by state of the art technology to ensure security [TS]

00:46:38   and stability no matter who links to unite or what happens. [TS]

00:46:41   You're not going to get hacked you're not going to go down you're going to be fine. [TS]

00:46:44   Everything is State of the Arts where space. It is trusted by millions of people. [TS]

00:46:48   And some of the most respected brands in the world. All the started just eight bucks a month. [TS]

00:46:53   A sign for a whole year of front you've got a freedom a name. Now. We've all many of us listening to the show. [TS]

00:46:59   Are programmers or are able to build websites in other ways. With other tools we've all probably done it. [TS]

00:47:05   Many of us have probably done it. Many of us either used or written other C.M.S. Is or used other services. [TS]

00:47:12   I can tell you I have used so many things I have written so many things. [TS]

00:47:15   Square spaces so much easier and more fully featured than anything I could ever write and. [TS]

00:47:20   Even if you want to write your own site let you know I do that a lot of them. I'm that kind of nerd. [TS]

00:47:25   There are still so many opportunities to use something like square space that you might come across. [TS]

00:47:30   You know if you're making as I first side project. You don't need to write your own C.M.S. [TS]

00:47:34   To make a side project so you can as you Squarespace if you're recommending something to of to a friend [TS]

00:47:38   or a loved one or you or your employer or a group you're working with. [TS]

00:47:42   You can recommend Squarespace that's what I did with my kids preschool and with a couple of friends. It's great. [TS]

00:47:47   So there's always even for. Gus who can totally designer and see a massive. [TS]

00:47:52   There's lots of situations where we shouldn't or can't do it for everything. [TS]

00:47:56   Squarespace fills all those rules it is so easy it is so full featured you get so much for free. Check it out. [TS]

00:48:02   Start your free trial today. It is a real free trial. No credit card required. [TS]

00:48:06   Just start building a site if you have an idea first site if you want to fool around. [TS]

00:48:09   Start building a free trial site right now at square space dot com. When you decide to sign up for square spaces. [TS]

00:48:15   Make sure to use the offer code A.T.P. To get ten percent off your first purchase. Squarespace build it beautiful. [TS]

00:48:21   So one of the things that's been announced for Al kepe town. Is this really listening thing and. [TS]

00:48:29   I have not had a chance to look into this at all but I'm very fascinated by what it means to me. [TS]

00:48:34   And I say that because my day to day life is. I live in V.M. Ware Fusion and. I am running Windows and V.M. [TS]

00:48:43   Ware Fusion more to do my day job. And it may be you will find out shortly. [TS]

00:48:48   That this will not affect the I'm refusing at all or it may be that the a more fusion will have to or V.M. [TS]

00:48:55   Ware will have to go to extraordinarily extraordinary lengths. In order to get themselves back to where they are today. [TS]

00:49:03   So John. Tell me about ruthless mode and what does that mean. [TS]

00:49:08   Framing for this as a one to a brief review of the basic UNIX security it said that it was ten has. [TS]

00:49:16   Unlike classic macro us which these days no one with investor probably remembers. [TS]

00:49:21   There are user accounts on us ten you log in to one maybe a log in one by default. Your user account. [TS]

00:49:29   When you create files or a user account. You're the user that owns them. [TS]

00:49:33   You can only mess with for the most part the files that you own or that have commissions for anyone in your group [TS]

00:49:39   or anyone at all to modify and in practice what that means is the operating system itself. And other users crap. [TS]

00:49:46   Does not have the Russian set on that allow you to do anything to it. So the files to make up the operating system. [TS]

00:49:52   Are owned by different user there. They're in a different group. And you as your regular user can mess with them. [TS]

00:49:57   You can have an administrative user which has been some elevated privilege groups including including something to lets [TS]

00:50:03   them. Become the superuser like when you're on something ask you to enter an admin user password. [TS]

00:50:09   That's elevating your privileges to OK Now even though you logged into whatever your account is now you have super your [TS]

00:50:15   words are privileges. You can modify anything on the system. And usually you doing it on. [TS]

00:50:20   Half a program that wants to mess with files that otherwise you as a user wouldn't be able to mess with. [TS]

00:50:25   And this was seen by mac users as a little bit of an annoyance but also as a as a big win of like oh finally. [TS]

00:50:33   I'll only be able to mess with my files by default so you can also make non admin account they can't elevate their [TS]

00:50:37   privileges. [TS]

00:50:39   You have to enter some other administrative account password tell their privileges so those people maybe couldn't. [TS]

00:50:44   He still applications are messed with the operating system or whatever. [TS]

00:50:48   The downside of this people have always discussed. And which are ruthless. [TS]

00:50:53   Does not really address that much [TS]

00:50:54   but it's worth keeping in mind is that right so so you have an anonymous account which that lot of people recommend you [TS]

00:50:59   have anon I'm in account because that way you can't elevate your girly just a level where you can modify anything [TS]

00:51:04   and all you ever be able to modify is your own files you can't delete the operating system you can mess of anything [TS]

00:51:08   like that. So if somehow malware got onto your system or hijacked your web browser or whatever. [TS]

00:51:16   And it was running as you the low the user. It would only be able to modify files on bite you. [TS]

00:51:21   Well guess what if they delete everything in your home directory owned by you you're going to be super sad because [TS]

00:51:25   that's all you. That's all the stuff that you care about. [TS]

00:51:29   You don't in the end you don't really care about the operating system or or so this this counter the Unix. [TS]

00:51:34   Security model goes. You can reinstall the operating system. [TS]

00:51:38   But you own all of the pictures that are you know in your I fought a library all the music with your ideas [TS]

00:51:42   and all the documents all your reports all your homework things all your work files all your source code that's all on [TS]

00:51:47   by you. All the files you care about her own but you for the most part. [TS]

00:51:50   So what does this little model where I have a regular user and then the root user. [TS]

00:51:55   As I'll better privileging it doesn't really help me like it's something if some piece of code runs loose on my system. [TS]

00:52:00   It can delete all my stuff anyway. That is the. [TS]

00:52:03   The sort of counter to love the Unix security Mel It sounds so great really doesn't doesn't help me because I still can [TS]

00:52:07   delete all my stuff. That is all true. But that's not why Maori want to do most of the time. [TS]

00:52:14   Malware kind of like a viruses that kill their host really fast. Like a literal you know. [TS]

00:52:18   Biological viruses malware that wants to either be useful or to spread. Can't kill toast immediately. [TS]

00:52:24   Now where the Demille delete someone's hard drive is not going to get very far because it's not going to have a chance [TS]

00:52:28   to propagate because it's going to immediately nuke the person's computer and. [TS]

00:52:32   You know not delete the heart of delete all their files like that will be really obvious that all their crap is gonna [TS]

00:52:36   going to be super mad and I won't spread. What malware wants to do both both for spreading purposes and. [TS]

00:52:41   Like why do they want to spread. Want to spread because it wants to become a powerful thing. [TS]

00:52:45   What you want malware to do is to silently in fact someone's computer. [TS]

00:52:49   To make it a slave of your bot net to let it mine for bitcoins to launch. Distributed Denial of Service attacks. [TS]

00:52:55   To do keystroke logging to steal pictures to turn on the webcam record people like the one most now where wants to do [TS]

00:53:03   is be hidden and doesn't want to delete all your files they'll be really obvious. And you would notice. [TS]

00:53:08   And you would immediately. Know something is his math. Stop. [TS]

00:53:11   It wants to get it took since your system an invisible way. And that's where the standard Unix. [TS]

00:53:16   Protection comes from where it wants to really get folks [TS]

00:53:21   and your system what it really wants to do is modify files that are part of the operating system so we can like a lot [TS]

00:53:25   of all the keystrokes of every user logged in or are control the hardware in ways that an individual user could. [TS]

00:53:31   It wants to sort of infect the binary is that you run a lot of which are applications install the application fold of [TS]

00:53:36   the maybe you don't own business or installed by different user or menus or infect the operating system itself [TS]

00:53:41   or get into the I O. Level or you know. That's what malware wants to do. [TS]

00:53:44   And so having a separate set of her missions where plain old. Your plain old user account. Can't modify system files. [TS]

00:53:51   Can't install kernel extensions that. That intercept all your keystrokes of that's a good thing right. [TS]

00:53:58   So that's the content that's not the current situation having to have anything about Al Capp attention right. [TS]

00:54:03   What else happened hands. [TS]

00:54:04   System Integrity protection a ruthless moto whatever is trying to do is add another layer of protection which is. [TS]

00:54:09   Instead of just having your regular user that can elevate you know the privileges up to the root user that can do [TS]

00:54:16   anything and having the user account that can do anything they want to say OK. A regular user account. [TS]

00:54:22   Some of those regular user accounts are admin users who can elevate their privileges to root level. [TS]

00:54:26   But even root can't do everything. [TS]

00:54:28   So even if you elevate your permissions by entering an admin password you become the reviews or whatever. [TS]

00:54:33   Even that user. Still can't do some stuff. [TS]

00:54:36   And the some stuff that they can't do is modify system files that inject their code into other running processes. [TS]

00:54:45   And all sorts of other things that you would take for granted on a regular Unix [TS]

00:54:48   and once you elevate your privileges superiors level you can do anything. [TS]

00:54:51   That's the whole point of the super user they are. You know I did hear they can do anything they want. [TS]

00:54:56   Doesn't matter who owns it doesn't matter they can do everything this. This is limiting the power of the root user. [TS]

00:55:02   And it's doing that because history has shown that it's not too difficult to take and him in user account [TS]

00:55:08   and either trick them into entering their been password [TS]

00:55:11   or find an exploit that elevate their privileges up to admin level. [TS]

00:55:14   And that's where the malware can really get it took steep into your system. [TS]

00:55:17   And this isn't even if i'm our gets that far as the malware finds tricks a user into entering their men pass around [TS]

00:55:22   they are name and user or finds a bug that elevates their privileges. [TS]

00:55:26   We still don't want them to be able to mess with the operating system not because the operating system is super [TS]

00:55:30   important like that's where their stuff is. [TS]

00:55:32   But because that's what malware wants to do to really take over the computer to really like you know install that key [TS]

00:55:37   logger they get every single keystroke every user ever typed on this computer and you know. [TS]

00:55:42   Emails that everybody takes pictures of them and records their credit card number [TS]

00:55:45   and does all sorts of all of nasty things. That's what these things want to do. [TS]

00:55:51   So yeah that's that this is the future as described [TS]

00:55:55   and the details those of us who details of this isn't doubled over to c section seven zero six innocuously name [TS]

00:56:02   security and your apps which is probably the reason I didn't even favorite it [TS]

00:56:05   when I was at that we had everything being Arkansas like what are they can tell whether that's boring [TS]

00:56:09   but by the time I heard it was in it was too late but anyway. [TS]

00:56:11   They were there freely available will put a link on the show if you can take a look at it. [TS]

00:56:14   Go through all the different events going to do. Hearten to learn that. [TS]

00:56:19   Like the directory is there limiting to the system only is like flash systems last bins less user slash Espanola things [TS]

00:56:25   you would expect them to forbid messing with. Were you supposed to put your stuff your unix the stuff. Your local like. [TS]

00:56:33   Like how they've been saying for years and years. [TS]

00:56:35   Put your stuff [TS]

00:56:36   and use a local user local belongs to the user Apple will not blow away on system installs I've been using it for a [TS]

00:56:42   long long time now I've never had to go wrong. Use a local as your friend. [TS]

00:56:46   That's where you should put your unix the stuff. [TS]

00:56:49   And of course in your home directory and all sorts of stuff like that the limitations they're adding here. You know. [TS]

00:56:55   All sound good for the purposes of increasing security. But there are once again. [TS]

00:57:02   Ramifications of them that are worth considering like you know can modify system binary got find should do that anyway. [TS]

00:57:08   Can stall things in system locations that's fine Colonel extensions have to be signed all they had to be signed already [TS]

00:57:12   that's not a new you know. Thing. [TS]

00:57:15   There may be some badly behaved software out there that does currently try to shove stuff into been user Espen [TS]

00:57:20   or something about maybe V.M. [TS]

00:57:21   Ware does but it's pretty easy going to fix that by just picking up stuff and user locals lie that's why I think the [TS]

00:57:26   and where will I be OK kernel extensions be [TS]

00:57:28   and where I think as Karl extensions I don't know Casey I marry you never pay close enough attention [TS]

00:57:32   but I would presume so. But if they do. [TS]

00:57:34   You can still have kernel extensions concepts are still saying they have to just have to be signed. [TS]

00:57:38   And I think there's probably some you know. [TS]

00:57:40   Approval process or something of on but like you know official safety tips are to be more doesn't have content. [TS]

00:57:45   But anyway. You can still have kernel extensions that have to be signed and I says a dozen there signed anyway. [TS]

00:57:53   I think that think they're behind that [TS]

00:57:55   and that's not a big deal either it's just probably like installers that put stuff in Flash been just because their [TS]

00:57:59   shirts and everybody's path. [TS]

00:58:01   And they really should put it in your local band and then you know modify people's path or do whatever they have to do. [TS]

00:58:08   Can attach to running processes and inject code. [TS]

00:58:12   You know can't use the trace probes on each project it processes all sorts of stuff like that. [TS]

00:58:17   This is a thing that you can disable. [TS]

00:58:19   Obviously you can't disabled by becoming root so you're not going to do su do some command. [TS]

00:58:24   And then turn it off as the whole point is the Brits power is limited. If you want to disable it. [TS]

00:58:28   You have to boot into the recovery alas and disable it from there the little recovery partition I put in there. [TS]

00:58:34   The configuration changes are starting end of your RAM and if huge to few turn off this mode. If you say. [TS]

00:58:43   I don't want this release of action the name [TS]

00:58:44   or that setting will persist across all across our Western style so if you install a new I. [TS]

00:58:49   Want something turn back on or whatever says they're trying to be friendly about this. [TS]

00:58:52   All of the slide say this system of how to actually unable to so I don't want to solve a change problem [TS]

00:58:58   but you know this is again just you know. I doubt most people will bother. [TS]

00:59:01   Messing with his kind of like when trying to support was only available. [TS]

00:59:05   If you turned off the kernel extension signing verification nobody wanted to do that it was scary I don't think I am [TS]

00:59:09   alone turn this off. [TS]

00:59:13   But there are around as occasions for this type of decision in the one that came to my mind immediately after hearing [TS]

00:59:18   all sorts of mac developers talk about this [TS]

00:59:20   and all a developer is complaining for years about the things that the mac app store doesn't allow to exist like the [TS]

00:59:26   kinds of apps that. That aren't allowed and I got star. Are very often the most interesting apps that me. [TS]

00:59:31   And I want to thought of immediately. Is Dropbox a fairly popular application. That got its start. The macros in of it. [TS]

00:59:39   Got it started by. You know making that magical folder that sinks. But one of the key features I think of Dropbox. [TS]

00:59:45   When it was introduced and to this day. Is that when you install Dropbox on the left hand. [TS]

00:59:51   And you have your love Dropbox folder [TS]

00:59:53   and you drag things into it a little a badge is your little icon like a little blue spinny thing. [TS]

00:59:58   And went completely sink you get a little green checkmark batch. And those little badges. [TS]

01:00:02   Like it's like oh it's just a magical folder but also there's a little extra bit of you why that tells me [TS]

01:00:06   when something has finished thinking. Right. That is. [TS]

01:00:09   There are many if you just drop the committed off older with an icon it does a bunch of magic stuff behind the scenes. [TS]

01:00:14   And the little icons are basically the whole U.I. and Also adding a context menu. [TS]

01:00:18   That pops up but the little icon badges. How to hold a little and little icon badges to the finder. [TS]

01:00:23   I didn't install an alternate version of find it well they did. They did in memory patching of the Finder process. [TS]

01:00:29   They that the finder was a running processes part of the operating system. [TS]

01:00:32   And they would inject their own code into the running. Image of the Finder. To make it do those little bedrest. [TS]

01:00:40   You could not have Dropbox in a world where it was not exist in the old days obviously now you can because Apple made [TS]

01:00:46   an official A.P.I. For it because there are no dummies I know Dropbox really popular. [TS]

01:00:49   But I'm thinking of as the next innovative app like Dropbox like. You know if Dropbox didn't exist. [TS]

01:00:56   El Capitan came out. Became the dominant one stall and someone had the idea for Dropbox. [TS]

01:01:01   It could not exist on a list because there's no way to do what it did. [TS]

01:01:05   The path that followed was do something super nasty that Apple doesn't like keep fighting Apple for years to to be able [TS]

01:01:11   to in memory patch their running process.. [TS]

01:01:14   Eventually become so popular that Apple is forced to give you an idea of your nefesh will A.P.I. [TS]

01:01:19   And then have Apple close the door behind you and say Now no one else can do what Dropbox did and. [TS]

01:01:26   This is the type of thing that I worry about from without all the apples policies. [TS]

01:01:32   Not so much that like they're going to stop me as user from doing what I want because I was pretty good least I was ten. [TS]

01:01:37   For giving you a way to like turn the scrap off if you don't want it [TS]

01:01:40   but that is necessarily limiting the types of things creative. Third party developers can do. [TS]

01:01:48   Where where is the next Dropbox go is an extra box can even be on the mac is even to be able to get off the ground as [TS]

01:01:54   it is it going to be able to get to the point where it can get to a level of popularity where Apple is forced to put [TS]

01:02:00   official support for the A.P.I. Is that it wants into his operating system. [TS]

01:02:04   Or is Apple just slowly closing the door on interesting application ideas which have never been a veil of elbow [TS]

01:02:12   and I us because you've always been limited what you do that with the Mac. [TS]

01:02:15   It's been the remaining area where people can try some crazy sorts of things. And even if Apple have an official A.B.I. [TS]

01:02:21   For them. If something works and becomes popular and people wanted. [TS]

01:02:24   That sort of the signal to Apple Hey people really like using their Maxa do this [TS]

01:02:29   and this company's been doing it in super dangerous ways for years maybe you can give them [TS]

01:02:32   and I think maybe I for that this route listening is like. Nope. [TS]

01:02:35   You're never going to be able to do it a dangerous way. [TS]

01:02:37   Because no one's going to be able to tell every day like Dropbox could not have gotten off the ground if they had to [TS]

01:02:41   tell your body hey by the way reboot into recovery partition [TS]

01:02:43   and turn out the security thing you know I understand then install Dropbox is great. Nobody would do it. [TS]

01:02:47   It would not become popular so. That is the the promise. And the the worries. [TS]

01:02:53   Surrounding the snowed are just and Taggerty or whatever you want to call it and now Capitan. [TS]

01:02:59   Do you think some degree of that might be solved by market forces if necessary so for instance suppose like you know [TS]

01:03:06   one of the ways that a lot of these but one of the most common categories of this kind of thing [TS]

01:03:11   and that I know of are kind of hacks and plug ins to Mail dot app. [TS]

01:03:16   Aren't most of those using some kind of thing with those the only possible anymore. They were back in the day. [TS]

01:03:21   I don't know if they are. That's thing that goes. Is Apple have an official A.B.I. [TS]

01:03:26   For mail plugins of this point [TS]

01:03:28   and remember I'm not sure any way you can look at situations like that where there's some system app. [TS]

01:03:35   And it has some shortcomings or there's some compelling features that can only be added by these kind of things right. [TS]

01:03:42   And so. [TS]

01:03:42   So you're saying like you know we're not going to see those at all I'm saying we will probably still see that like if. [TS]

01:03:49   If it's compelling enough we will still see those things. But we will see them just. In other places. [TS]

01:03:55   So in the example of. [TS]

01:03:57   Dropbox like we just won't see it on Mackley you know if that kind of thing is not possible it'll come to windows first. [TS]

01:04:04   In reality of these days. [TS]

01:04:06   Mobile really matters so much I'm not sure some like that could launch today and end up mattering. But regardless. [TS]

01:04:12   You know it would go on the platforms first. In the case of application plugins like Mel plugins. [TS]

01:04:17   If those become not possible. Through any kind of release protection or anything like that. [TS]

01:04:23   Then we'll just see things like alternative mail clients coming up with compelling features instead. [TS]

01:04:29   Do you think that's so that's an equivalent thing though like the people who would make the mail plugin making a full [TS]

01:04:35   fledge Malfoy occasion that includes a feature that you're on as a way higher bar than figuring out how to hack some [TS]

01:04:40   plugin into mailed. Well look at where the innovations happening now. It's not an email it's in G. Mail. Anyway. [TS]

01:04:46   You know it's maybe that was a bad example. But you know there are things like that we're like. [TS]

01:04:51   There are other ways for for great compelling ideas. [TS]

01:04:54   To gain traction and get out and maybe it's harder maybe some of them are closed off. But over. All you know this is. [TS]

01:05:00   I see this as really just another technological progression. You know like first. [TS]

01:05:05   In the early days you could just like you know screwball over memory now we have projected memory [TS]

01:05:09   and you can't just do that quite as easily [TS]

01:05:11   and think a lot of these things are kind of memory invasion hacks like that [TS]

01:05:16   but you know that some of them are not quite as bad as that [TS]

01:05:19   but like I you know as technology progresses we're getting more and more protections in safety is around. [TS]

01:05:27   You know things like system processes and user securing everything and all that and most of these protections. Cut off. [TS]

01:05:34   Categories of apps and hacks and add ons that were previously possible. And so far. [TS]

01:05:40   You can look back at these progressions and. I don't think anybody's arguing that we should. [TS]

01:05:45   That we should on do any of them or make holes in any of them. [TS]

01:05:47   Overall I think we really have made substantial improvements. By adding more protection over time. [TS]

01:05:54   And there are certain things like. [TS]

01:05:55   You know like the political downside of these protections are things like They're not being over to side load apps [TS]

01:06:02   and i O. S. For users you know stuff like that that's that's that's bad. [TS]

01:06:05   Well they improve that to an hour's time like now. [TS]

01:06:08   A regular person can stick and build and sign their own applications and Xcode [TS]

01:06:12   and put it on their device without doing any weird stuff right. Well yeah I mean yes that's true it's you know. [TS]

01:06:19   That's of limited usefulness Maybe because most people are not going to be able to do that but just skill wise [TS]

01:06:23   and time wise. [TS]

01:06:25   Regard less these protections over time generally improve computing for people they generally improve stability [TS]

01:06:32   and improve security. And usually we look at the mall and say you know what we're better off now. [TS]

01:06:37   So most of these rules protections are common sense. [TS]

01:06:40   There's only you know some of them might be might be restrictive to applications that innovation and everything [TS]

01:06:46   but I think. [TS]

01:06:47   I think the the percentage of those is going to be extremely low relative like everything that matters in computing [TS]

01:06:53   today where the innovation is happening in computing today. [TS]

01:06:56   I think it's moving away from places where it's important to be able to inject code in random places [TS]

01:07:02   or modify system files. [TS]

01:07:03   I don't think we're seeing a lot of that kind of innovation anymore I don't think we will because just the way the [TS]

01:07:07   world is moving so even if Apple didn't do this like. [TS]

01:07:10   How likely is it that the next disruptive start was going to be a finder hack. You know it's honestly not that life. [TS]

01:07:15   How likely wasn't a game of the but it was like it totally was the Helped are from Dropbox with essentially. [TS]

01:07:20   Under hacking a bunch of Python scripts and how many years ago it was that I know [TS]

01:07:25   but like I don't think it's outside their own possibility as doors close obviously it's like oh we came to be seeing [TS]

01:07:29   less of these hacks will no doubt you're seeing less of these acts because they're making them less possible. [TS]

01:07:33   But I agree with you like I think. I wouldn't I'm not arguing against these protections but I think. [TS]

01:07:37   If you're going to you know. [TS]

01:07:40   If you're going to add these protections which I think you should do you have to modify your other policies to match [TS]

01:07:46   the reality that you are now disallows who was previously. You know. [TS]

01:07:50   Intentionally or not when I was relying on is sneaky clever people find ways to bypass things [TS]

01:07:56   and do things that we don't want them to do. We will be angry about it and try to stop them. [TS]

01:08:02   But despite our best efforts some of them are going to have wildly popular and then we'll grudgingly add official A.B.I. [TS]

01:08:07   Support. And whether that is a conscious strategy or just like how things turn out. [TS]

01:08:13   That is sort of the lifecycle of the of the innovative software application. Right on the Apple platform. [TS]

01:08:20   And if you change that lifecycle by saying you know what we want to cut out the early part where they do that as you [TS]

01:08:26   think in the gross way that we don't think we should because it's dumb like we don't want people hacking I don't want [TS]

01:08:30   people. [TS]

01:08:31   You know I didn't like the fact the dropbox did in memory hacking remember finding ways to disable by removing a little [TS]

01:08:35   context menu like injecting things up like that like. That's all bad. But if you take that away. [TS]

01:08:41   You have to comp the new life cycle in the new lifecycle could be a developer. [TS]

01:08:46   You know a bunch of developers have a reasonable request for system A.B.I. Support for badging icons in the Finder. [TS]

01:08:53   The current Apple would. There's no mechanism for you to get that if you buy. [TS]

01:08:58   It's chicken [TS]

01:08:58   and egg you can't say no matter how many developers say boy we really wish there was a way we could intercept audio [TS]

01:09:03   system wide because we have some great ideas for like Audio Hijack three [TS]

01:09:06   or whatever like even if it's fifteen different companies or even of like Adobe and Microsoft that Apple is like. [TS]

01:09:12   I have that doesn't seem important as you shouldn't do that anyway like like there isn't there is no alternate [TS]

01:09:17   lifecycle for these innovations. It's their cutting off one way for these things to come out and. [TS]

01:09:22   I don't see them opening up to the point where like we're willing to entertain your suggestions for a new A.P.I. [TS]

01:09:27   As even if it's a lot of work for example meant. And it will only benefit you as a third party. [TS]

01:09:31   Simply because we want those kind of innovative ideas in our platform. Right. [TS]

01:09:36   Like they need to do you need to make an alternate path. Like I put just put a link in the shots of M.P. [TS]

01:09:41   and Time to my real paths in the grass. Thing with the. [TS]

01:09:45   Which is the thing about hacks these are the Larry Wall quote which is not really his quote [TS]

01:09:49   but he's quoting somebody else about university campus where they don't pay anything they just let people walk around [TS]

01:09:55   wherever they were down the grass that's where you put the past. [TS]

01:09:58   System hacks like that are telling you what is it the people want to do. [TS]

01:10:01   And it's really like you need to come up with a good way to find out right to people really want to put benches in [TS]

01:10:06   there I conjure is just something some random kid at MIT thinks would be cool for people to have. [TS]

01:10:11   It's not even a product just a feature like it doesn't sound like could. What's his name. Drew whatever. [TS]

01:10:18   Could he somehow have commenced Apple to add an official A.P.I. For badging icons in the Finder. [TS]

01:10:23   I don't see how this any way he could possibly do it like there needs but there needs to be some way for. [TS]

01:10:29   If you can't do it by hacking away. What is the official way of doing what is the official way of making. [TS]

01:10:36   Oh yes tenor I.O.'s or any platform that Apple controls. [TS]

01:10:39   A viable place for you to do this new innovative thing that currently there is no well supported way to do [TS]

01:10:45   and I guess that Mark was like well they can't do it here we'll do it first on Windows or whatever like. [TS]

01:10:49   I think all computing platforms are moving this direction. And secondarily. [TS]

01:10:55   I don't think Apple would be happy with the answer that was what the innovation happening on the platform them all [TS]

01:10:58   copies. Right now but once the innovation happen it and its platform. [TS]

01:11:01   But innovation is weird in that you can't predict what it's going to want so you have to have some way for the people [TS]

01:11:07   with good ideas. To be able to do what they want to do on your system. [TS]

01:11:12   And that's a harder problem I think because back when you just let them hack stuff up. [TS]

01:11:16   You got that you didn't have to decide you were like well that person had a crazy hack [TS]

01:11:19   and no one cares that person at a crazy Acca known carries that wonder because you have no one cares all this person to [TS]

01:11:23   degrade the hack. And the entire world loves Dropbox. [TS]

01:11:26   Apple can't make that call how does app another this is going to listen to all those guys. [TS]

01:11:30   And so I want to have this I want to be I felt like. [TS]

01:11:32   In some respects the old one where you let the people hike your system was easier for Apple. [TS]

01:11:36   But now they're kind of putting themselves on the hook the their box out these creative ideas. [TS]

01:11:41   Or find some new way to sort of vet which crazy ideas are worth implementing. And which aren't. [TS]

01:11:48   Our finest bunch of this week is a glue. Go to a glue Software dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

01:11:54   Igloo is an internet you will actually like. Now air anyone who's worked and a corporate environment. [TS]

01:12:00   Casey John knows how painful internets can be. Usually work Internets are awful the content is stale. [TS]

01:12:07   The interface is ugly and you can't access it on your phone or do really and he really useful on mobile. [TS]

01:12:12   Igloo is an Internet you'll actually like because designed for the user. In the modern world. [TS]

01:12:17   Igloo gives you the flexibility to get your work done how you want to where you want to and I what ever device. [TS]

01:12:23   You want to use a glue is truly building a product meant for twenty fifteen. [TS]

01:12:27   Not nine hundred ninety seven like so many unfortunate internets. [TS]

01:12:31   With a glue Internet you can share news you can organize your files you can coordinate calendars and manage projects. [TS]

01:12:36   All in one place. Everything can be social with comments like buttons. [TS]

01:12:41   And anyone can add content based on their permissions. [TS]

01:12:44   But drag and drop widgets and I'm with you wig editor that's what you see is what you get. [TS]

01:12:47   I pronounce it was he would you guys the thing. Yeah. [TS]

01:12:51   And it will make use of response of web design to look fantastic on all your devices [TS]

01:12:55   and they have an amazing advance document engine. You can preview and annotate documents. All with H.T.M.L. Five. [TS]

01:13:02   So it works with everything from a computer always on to even a Blackberry. It works on every device. It's responsive. [TS]

01:13:08   It's great design you can customize your design. One. [TS]

01:13:11   If one department wants some ugly fonts [TS]

01:13:13   and you don't you can let them have their out the fun you can have your department have the nice pretty fun. [TS]

01:13:17   You can do everything you wanted a glue. [TS]

01:13:19   It is so it really brings the best together of things like microblogging services and collaborative document [TS]

01:13:26   and station all that stuff it brings all together. In your private. Internet. [TS]

01:13:30   And it's very enterprise friendly it's if it's a lot of requirements for enterprise the keep everything private it's [TS]

01:13:35   really quite impressive. Check it out. So I am but a glue Software dot com slash A.T.P. For a free trial. [TS]

01:13:41   In fact if your group has a tenner fewer people. It's even free forever to check it out. Igloo Software dot com. A.T.P. [TS]

01:13:49   For a free trial and get started today. Thanks a lot to glue for sponsoring our show once again. [TS]

01:13:54   Before we leave this topic. Real time fall from the need to be tipster V.M. Ware doesn't. [TS]

01:13:58   Shove stuff in the system directory is V.M. Ware does use kernel extensions and V.M. [TS]

01:14:02   Ware currently works in El Capitan things. Seeds one through four. [TS]

01:14:07   So life is good for me and humans [TS]

01:14:09   and also to like me because various Audio Hijack products stuff like that those all have signed Caxton So those will [TS]

01:14:16   all still work as well so I mean I think they're not available nightcap star right no definitely. Well. [TS]

01:14:21   That doesn't mean anything these days. Right but. [TS]

01:14:23   But couldn't be available not just because their choice to put it there but they could not but the. [TS]

01:14:27   My understanding is that you could not put audio hijacked on the mag outside violates the guidelines of the NY cops are. [TS]

01:14:32   As far as me that's true I mean like like there are certain loopholes like like some apps will. [TS]

01:14:36   They'll have like a basic version on the App Store that can do some functionality [TS]

01:14:39   but then to do anything fun yes like go to their website and download it's optional extra component [TS]

01:14:43   and all sorts the fight that like there are there are different hacks but for the most part. [TS]

01:14:47   I think whether something is allowed in the mac app store is almost completely irrelevant to the possible innovation [TS]

01:14:56   that can happen on the mac. [TS]

01:14:57   Because the fact is the maggots Tory just adds a disaster if in so many ways I mean the actual app itself from use [TS]

01:15:04   perspective is awful. The policies are Draco nian and restrictive and oppressive and way worse than I.I.S. [TS]

01:15:12   Relative to what's normal on the platform. It's a buggy. It's. [TS]

01:15:18   You know it's just awful if there's a so many things about it are terrible. That we can't say that. Well that. [TS]

01:15:24   If that won't fly in the mag ops door then it won't happen in the mac because the fact is it's going to the point now [TS]

01:15:29   where the App Store is really a ghost town and almost everything good in the mac is outside of it. [TS]

01:15:34   But like the my cat story. As for as as bad as it isn't. People may be leaving it. [TS]

01:15:38   I think it does express what Apple wishes. Make out. [TS]

01:15:41   Sort of like like sand but the fact the sandboxing was there first and was a requirement and. [TS]

01:15:47   You know the don't want you to do any sort of hacks and go on to install stuff like Apple wishes all apps. [TS]

01:15:52   Whereas night. Nice and neat and self self-contained as the mac app store guidelines dictate.. [TS]

01:15:59   Yeah but the backup store it's like. It's like X. H.T.M.L. You really hit X H T M L don't you pull that one out. [TS]

01:16:06   Really want to. [TS]

01:16:07   Well no it just it was a great example of like like the cat was already out of the bag ever it was already doing things [TS]

01:16:11   a whole other way. [TS]

01:16:13   And this dance group some but they are going to lock everything down to be very restrictive informal. [TS]

01:16:17   Here's the new way to do it and everyone basically just said. No it's actually female had it had a transitional D.T. [TS]

01:16:23   A day like it was and that's hard and fast [TS]

01:16:25   but I think the mag out store is more like it's all going to be as expressions like. [TS]

01:16:30   You know forget about all of the attributes and to act like it's so so limited [TS]

01:16:33   but the limitations of the I got story like. I really feel like they express what Apple wishes. [TS]

01:16:40   Mac software development was like. [TS]

01:16:42   They don't match the reality of what my software to open actually is like [TS]

01:16:47   and I don't think they also are enough of an overlap with what users actually want. [TS]

01:16:52   I think applications like Audio Hijack fill a need for people who want the type of application like. [TS]

01:16:57   This is great it makes me happy that I have my mac. [TS]

01:17:00   Because this and that can do this amazing thing with applications that like. [TS]

01:17:03   Lets me use on that to do interesting things. [TS]

01:17:06   But that can't fit within the guidelines of the next outsource so you know. [TS]

01:17:10   History has shown so far that Apple has been really good about like well how does NOT count store. [TS]

01:17:16   Show you what we want to be what we're not going to stop you from a lot of crap like will do everything we can like [TS]

01:17:20   developer id's and the it was a called gatekeeper thing [TS]

01:17:24   and they even have like the gatekeeper setting toggle back from the insecure want to secure one if you like Turn Turn [TS]

01:17:29   in secure mode for second you forget about it. [TS]

01:17:31   And you don't launch an app that wouldn't be allowed like a toggle back like that trying to do everything they can most [TS]

01:17:35   loud and power users to do what they want. But still they just want everything to be kind of heard over there. [TS]

01:17:41   And eventually there's going to competencies hard things like. [TS]

01:17:43   What if you know this you go through the exercise and say what if you really did want everything to be [TS]

01:17:48   and I got started now you couldn't have Photoshop. Anymore. How would you square that circle. [TS]

01:17:53   What would you do to deal with it. [TS]

01:17:54   You know I was asked do something because you're not going to like well tough luck at all we've got to rewrite their [TS]

01:17:57   applications office and I got star like they would they would figure out Hedo be what you need to get like. [TS]

01:18:03   And they just don't seem to to extend that sort of effort to these smaller applications [TS]

01:18:09   and so we're locked in a situation where most Macs offer that people really like [TS]

01:18:12   and care about is either not the mac apps that are not in the mac app store only and more [TS]

01:18:17   and more software that people do care about is leaving the I got started was too much of a hassle to be there. [TS]

01:18:21   And I don't think this is bad software like Panix applications you know. [TS]

01:18:24   But about the poster child for like doing things the Apple way they're practically a miniature Apple. [TS]

01:18:28   Even they can stick it out in some cases for the I gotta start with applications because just to in are much of a [TS]

01:18:32   hassle do they devalue the app store do they just get rid of the i Cloud thing [TS]

01:18:36   and forget I think the gist of their own sync service because I can handle. I Cloud thing. [TS]

01:18:40   Maybe they did leave for one of the minor. I think. I think anyway. You know. [TS]

01:18:44   The fact is like the mac app store has been a. I think a colossal failure I mean it's not a level of ping. But. [TS]

01:18:52   But honestly not that far off [TS]

01:18:55   and just like how much people are using at these days how relevant that is how much it is really not at all the future [TS]

01:19:02   of app deployment and sales on the Mac. I mean. Again it's not about is paying but I don't like it's that far off. [TS]

01:19:10   It really is terrible it really has been a huge failure. [TS]

01:19:13   And it seems like it seems like there are lots of forces within Apple and you know some of it just like inertia. [TS]

01:19:21   Some of it might be politics I don't know I don't know the and the internals [TS]

01:19:23   but it just seems like whatever forces got it to that state where it's a now where Apple just tried to rule with such [TS]

01:19:32   an iron fist especially with sandboxing coming in after the fact which really hurt things. [TS]

01:19:37   You know just really was such an iron fist there that everyone really just left. And like now as a consumer. [TS]

01:19:44   We've tipped the point where like. [TS]

01:19:45   I used to one when it [TS]

01:19:47   when it first came out a used to buy as many things there as I could because then I wouldn't have to deal with serial [TS]

01:19:52   numbers or anything I knew I could install it like on my laptop at my desktop and I wouldn't give me crap. [TS]

01:19:58   But what has happened since then is enough. Big apps have left it. That. Now I'm afraid to buy anything there. [TS]

01:20:06   Now if something is available in or out of the app store I'll bite out of the after by default now. [TS]

01:20:11   So like I feel like I've been typing a lot of people like a soon as it happens to you once for like an app you bought [TS]

01:20:17   in the App Store then leave the App Store I think as soon as it happens to you once. You're very likely to to switch. [TS]

01:20:22   In that way the way I did you know there's still a barrier though to buying outside the house [TS]

01:20:26   or for normals right for regular people like there's a reason. [TS]

01:20:29   Everyone loved I was out it's are like you just click click Are you got a thing like a special because Sony go of i [TS]

01:20:34   Tunes accounts like credit card is already there like the benefits are there for regular people it's a luxury that we [TS]

01:20:38   have to be like oh I know what to do. [TS]

01:20:42   When I get burned in this way because I think regular people do get burned [TS]

01:20:45   and by the way same of the chat room one of the coda to with the one I was thinking of is out of the mag out there what [TS]

01:20:49   about all of people who bought coda on the I got store. [TS]

01:20:52   And now it's out of it like they have the frustration there in the situation [TS]

01:20:55   but are all of them ready to go to know which website to go to and know how to buy it online [TS]

01:21:02   and deal with the serial numbers and do it like. [TS]

01:21:04   We're OK with that because that's the way it was for the longest time [TS]

01:21:07   but for people who are sort of came into computers in the in the i OS app store age. [TS]

01:21:12   There used to just going someplace and clicking a thing and getting the application [TS]

01:21:15   and just having it there like the those benefits are still there and you mention like them. [TS]

01:21:20   Ruling with an iron fist and then I got store I think the problem is that. [TS]

01:21:25   So they wasn't that there really was an iron fist. They have the carrot on the stick right. And the stick. [TS]

01:21:30   Was sort of floppy and nonexistent. [TS]

01:21:33   Because bottom line you didn't have to buy through the mag outsmart you can get your stuff so the stick is barely there [TS]

01:21:38   like they don't really have much of a stick to make people be in [TS]

01:21:41   and I kept store as evidenced by all the people living it right. And the carrot. Was kind of a rotten crappy care too. [TS]

01:21:47   So there was no real stick to force people to be there. [TS]

01:21:50   And no real carrot for you like here's why you should be in the beginning it seem like there was a carrot hey people [TS]

01:21:54   are excited by the mac app store I got to be there to get the sales but as a kind of fizzled. [TS]

01:21:58   Carrot is looking less appealing. And like the basically is no stick. Like even regular people. [TS]

01:22:04   If anyone has a mac and knows how to buy software for all like. [TS]

01:22:09   You can google and find something in sun like it's difficult [TS]

01:22:12   but it's no more difficult than it was before the outsource exactly as difficult [TS]

01:22:15   and before the mac out starting to send people made money selling software for the mac somehow that it wasn't a mass [TS]

01:22:20   market like I us. [TS]

01:22:22   It wasn't something that everybody did you know the number of people who were on Macs [TS]

01:22:25   and who bought software what was much smaller number of people who had. [TS]

01:22:28   I was devices and install ops is everyone's got an IRA So I says tapping on that upstart installing something right. [TS]

01:22:34   You know it's just a Facebook app. Right. [TS]

01:22:36   But it was still a viable business so it seems like we're slowly reverting to that where the knockout store is filled [TS]

01:22:41   with the few apps that can now can still fit within its guidelines. And again. Code and panic. [TS]

01:22:48   When Panic can't get their app on your thing like they're like the most conscientious like made in Apple's image all [TS]

01:22:55   the similar like quality and wanting to do the right thing [TS]

01:22:59   and they struggle with a really long time of sandboxing with their application trying to make a go of it working [TS]

01:23:03   without over like a year to year like. If they can make a go over the like that. [TS]

01:23:08   What hope is there for anybody else because their code is not like a you know an application is injecting code into the [TS]

01:23:15   Finder to put badges and icons like. It's an ID for web developer for crying out loud. [TS]

01:23:20   And you can't have that does that outside their own with things you can have a knack now. X. [TS]

01:23:24   Goes in the not got it or not that count because it's Apple. [TS]

01:23:27   That's the best thing like you know Apple can put stuff on the I got started whatever the hell wants to tell the rules [TS]

01:23:31   don't apply to Apple which is part of the problem I mean that's part of both app stores [TS]

01:23:35   but especially the mac One is that they don't dog food. Most of these things so it's really it's disaster. [TS]

01:23:40   Well and even as user so not only am I now. [TS]

01:23:43   Disincentive eyes from buying things there that are out that are available elsewhere. [TS]

01:23:47   But in recent times I don't even look there anymore. Because so many great apps are not available there. [TS]

01:23:54   And all it only takes a couple of times you're looking for an app. [TS]

01:23:57   Before you can develop a pattern of you know I now have now I have to look in the App Store and out of the App Store. [TS]

01:24:02   Like I was it's great you can just look in one place [TS]

01:24:04   and you can see this is everything available for the platform for the mac. It was never that way but it. [TS]

01:24:08   When it was when it started you could tell it. It's going to sway and there was more stuff there it seemed like.. [TS]

01:24:14   Now it's like if I want to add to do X. [TS]

01:24:16   After searching the App Store [TS]

01:24:18   and then also to do web search I also have to find it's like you know like the bad old days [TS]

01:24:22   when you just like didn't have one place to look like it was again the status is something that should be an advantage [TS]

01:24:26   for the mag out store [TS]

01:24:27   and this is just not an opposite not enough of a carrot like that's why people were in the beginning well I'll be fine [TS]

01:24:32   double people don't even know that a website exist like people know where to even start to get mac outs [TS]

01:24:36   or to get Macsoftware But hey here's a place to start for the top of the Apple menu let me just go there and I think. [TS]

01:24:43   I fear what a topic now is. People go to that I don't know how the Apple menu. [TS]

01:24:49   And they think that's all there is for the platform. [TS]

01:24:51   Like that's a natural thing to think if you are someone who like came to the mac from I.O.'s or whatever. [TS]

01:24:55   Oh I guess these are all things I can get for the mac. Maybe someone might have heard of Photoshop ago. [TS]

01:25:00   There's Photoshop is not I've heard of that is not not that I guess they have casual people wouldn't buy far shop is an [TS]

01:25:05   expensive application but or I guess Microsoft Office two is on the backups or forget. I think it might be actually. [TS]

01:25:11   Yeah. Anyway. Like some things are still outside of it. [TS]

01:25:14   And their applications like Apple applications I don't have to abide by the rules [TS]

01:25:18   but like that would be the worst thing like. If you. [TS]

01:25:20   If you get a mac and and think that the stuff on the mac apps store is the extent of what you can do with a mac. [TS]

01:25:26   Like you just missing out on too much stuff. You know is Dropbox my caps or maybe it is now they have the. [TS]

01:25:34   The icon badging thing but certainly in the old days. [TS]

01:25:37   That Dropbox can be in the magazine are going to inject the code into the finder. Not going to when I got Starr. [TS]

01:25:41   If you thought that you got a mac and you couldn't get Dropbox. [TS]

01:25:44   Like I want to then I got store [TS]

01:25:45   and I couldn't find Dropbox is that not a thing on the mac like because I heard my friends talk about it [TS]

01:25:49   and they said I should get it but I don't see it anywhere and like. First of all. Little aside here. [TS]

01:25:55   Dropbox for me has never worked worse and it doesn't Yosemite. [TS]

01:25:59   It has a net because [TS]

01:26:01   when the editor integration the fight the finder negotiation with the country points they don't inject code. [TS]

01:26:06   It's buggy as hell. It's so buggy. Icon and I read about this in a bunch people so they say the same thing. [TS]

01:26:11   I constantly have issues where a file be updated. You know. [TS]

01:26:16   Remotely from somewhere else often it's like our shared folder when you as a ploy [TS]

01:26:20   or audio file be up to uplift updated. And it in Finder in Finder windows. It will lose its bad. [TS]

01:26:28   And will be the old filename. Not the new one. So a basically a ghost file. Filename will appear to be there. [TS]

01:26:34   And if you go into terminal in the LS It shows the correct content. [TS]

01:26:37   But in the Finder window showing stale contents [TS]

01:26:39   and it will still show an old filed a new file won't show up until you relaunch finder which case it'll be fixed for [TS]

01:26:46   twenty minutes. Maybe. So many people of report that they have the same problem. [TS]

01:26:50   Old Dropbox never had that problem like this is getting of things like they are high ground anyway. [TS]

01:26:57   Accies man actually has a like that's. [TS]

01:26:59   That's the thing about the whole like injecting memory into another process [TS]

01:27:02   and the complications that become popular that do that necessarily have to be the ones written by people who really [TS]

01:27:09   know the ins and outs not again on that I'm recommending that it is a crazy practice or whatever but how did X. [TS]

01:27:14   How we're actually just thing for so long. [TS]

01:27:16   Unsanity this company making these products that just like did terrible things to your system how does that work at all. [TS]

01:27:22   How did they ever become popular is because the people who made them were able to find ways to do them that what they [TS]

01:27:28   would actually work for a large number of people what is incredibly hard is not a scalable way to development [TS]

01:27:32   but it kind of weeds out all the people who wanted to find hacking away who does have who didn't know every little [TS]

01:27:36   intricate detail. [TS]

01:27:37   Because they were just crash your system and you would never hear and so the people who did Dropbox [TS]

01:27:41   but I think it was a presentation on this one to her ROIC efforts to figure out how to safely patch on it which is a [TS]

01:27:46   terrible way to do this in an official A.B.I. [TS]

01:27:48   Is better but it was entirely in their hands to figure out how to do this. [TS]

01:27:51   Whereas now you're cooperating with Apple and Apple finder team on will make this A.P.I. [TS]

01:27:56   and You can use it and you know what it's like with Apple I be the first release that it's out [TS]

01:28:00   and there are bugs it doesn't work right or whatever you're hoping the next year will fix the bugs and like you know [TS]

01:28:07   and Al Capp again there's this new wave have worked better or whatever [TS]

01:28:09   but maybe not maybe not a big priority for them so I don't know what kind of hope there is for this getting less buggy [TS]

01:28:15   for you. [TS]

01:28:15   I haven't had a many problems you describe for it [TS]

01:28:18   but I have seen situations where I like what I get usually it's like the badges don't appear on like doesn't have [TS]

01:28:23   integration is full speed quickly if you know why do I. [TS]

01:28:28   Like is it even working [TS]

01:28:29   and then like in the context menus the same thing like that I think it was officially before anyway. [TS]

01:28:34   Realtime files and a chat room Dropbox is not in the mag out story did a search for Dropbox knockout store [TS]

01:28:39   and get a screen full of results and say things like app driver Dropbox app for Dropbox box menu. [TS]

01:28:46   Drop for Dropbox drag share for Dropbox app for Dropbox for Dropbox instant out for Dropbox plus swift drop for Dropbox. [TS]

01:28:53   Anyway. Search on the App Store and Apple's decision to let everything in but draw no distinction. [TS]

01:29:00   Like I don't even know what these things are but I fear for someone saying they want Dropbox. [TS]

01:29:04   And these are prices to ninety nine to ninety nine for ninety nine. [TS]

01:29:08   I don't think there's any free others a couple free ones here and there drop light for Dropbox D.V.R. [TS]

01:29:12   Webcam Dropbox revisions for Dropbox. I fear for someone thinking. [TS]

01:29:17   Then I got stories where you get up occasions I've heard of a thing called Dropbox let me go find it. [TS]

01:29:22   Face with this screen. I don't know what they would do. [TS]

01:29:25   Of but they certainly want to get Dropbox I can tell you that this is not here. And that's it that's exactly the thing. [TS]

01:29:29   It only takes a couple of times of searching for something that you know is out there [TS]

01:29:34   and not finding it the mac app store. [TS]

01:29:36   Before you just stop looking in the mac app store [TS]

01:29:38   or you download have these because they all have obviously they'll have Drop Box icon. [TS]

01:29:41   I'll have a little box that is that either an exact copy of the dropbox icon [TS]

01:29:45   or someone trying to redraw the dropbox like it's so bad after a search is all other. [TS]

01:29:53   So things are going really well in the backup store then I got. [TS]

01:29:56   Yeah we should [TS]

01:29:56   and we should mention cracking berries recent post to on the USA Just so we can just get rid of the show not someone [TS]

01:30:01   mention it. Yeah yeah. Definitely definitely read this like you know. [TS]

01:30:05   Because one of the problems the back App Store and MAC development general is not only that there's all these. [TS]

01:30:11   You know policy issues and really with the iron fist and there floppy care and lack of stick. [TS]

01:30:16   But also it's like they're ruling with a neglectful iron fist. [TS]

01:30:20   Like they don't even care [TS]

01:30:22   and so much so many luxuries that i OS developers get a new feature that I was developers get from things like. [TS]

01:30:28   I Tunes connect i Cloud. A.P.I. Has so many of them. Don't come to the MAC at all or come very late to the mac. [TS]

01:30:35   And I cracked that damn ples of like test flight bills and some of that were just like this stuff is like and. [TS]

01:30:41   Usually it's promise from Agatha go Mechelle have it. Soon. I'm just hardly ever get there get there very later and. [TS]

01:30:48   Yeah I just obviously the mac. A.P.I. Wise development wise and Macs services for developers. [TS]

01:30:55   Obviously these things are not. [TS]

01:30:58   Incredibly high priority is Apple because if they were you know that's what Apple says I regard this of what we hear [TS]

01:31:04   from from like. [TS]

01:31:05   You know hardworking people inside the company a world in the in the middle of the of the hierarchy somewhere. [TS]

01:31:10   Regardless of that you can just tell by their actions you can tell by the results. That this is you know. [TS]

01:31:15   This is not a priority I went to the parody I.O.'s has way more users brings in way more money is way more high profile [TS]

01:31:20   obviously that's that's a higher priority. And I can't really fault them for that but it's unfortunate as mac users. [TS]

01:31:25   And it's even more unfortunate if you're a mac developer. That you that you're really on what used to be. [TS]

01:31:31   The thing Apple cared so much about and now. It's clearly you know. Third or fourth priorities days.. [TS]

01:31:37   The one that hurts the most the for that is a thing where they disabled Aparicio use from beta versions of i O. S. [TS]

01:31:43   And they didn't. The didn't do it on the Mac like. That's not a hard. [TS]

01:31:46   I don't want to say though that so easy to do with like they they dedicated the resources a do it [TS]

01:31:50   and i OS that feels like the type of thing just to save face you like can we do that for the one who has to. [TS]

01:31:56   Is it that big a deal. [TS]

01:31:58   Maybe they will do it eventually maybe it takes longer to patch the mac asked our application maybe there's no one [TS]

01:32:02   working on the mac app store application I don't know what the details are [TS]

01:32:05   but the that one really hurts because like ever and so excited any people can really. [TS]

01:32:09   Never mind this kind of like a little too little too late because already betas are in people's hands they are writing [TS]

01:32:13   reviews. But they fixed it right. [TS]

01:32:15   Not from accusers so you don't even get that you don't even get what you think is probably like the lowest effort type [TS]

01:32:20   of know. [TS]

01:32:22   Just not not a priority at all [TS]

01:32:24   and some respects like the great talking very thing is coming out from the perspective of a MAC developer [TS]

01:32:29   and as people voice said like Apple cares about Apple first user seconds developers. Third or later. [TS]

01:32:35   It's a reasonable prioritization So it's like a lot of times developers want things from Apple that Apple doesn't give [TS]

01:32:40   them because of because they think it's more important for users to have something of rabble to have something. [TS]

01:32:45   But this is the case or developer versus developer it's. [TS]

01:32:47   Impairing What is it like if you're developing for Apple's most popular platform [TS]

01:32:50   or developing for Apple's second most popular press from. And it's a hell of a drop off. Congo second most popular. [TS]

01:32:57   And we'll see what happens [TS]

01:32:58   and suddenly the watch becomes a second most popular one then your then your developing for the third most popular. [TS]

01:33:03   Not that I honestly. Yeah. I'm not sure that will happen. [TS]

01:33:07   But that's another show and either way remember just a couple years ago. Years ago we came back to the mac. [TS]

01:33:13   So things are fine don't worry about it. I mean I think they did do. Are doing better with A.P.I. [TS]

01:33:19   Parity because so many guys are reappear in both like extensions A.P.R. [TS]

01:33:23   That didn't come out the same time in both but you can't when that happens it's like. [TS]

01:33:26   It's like a boost to the neck because like Oh I wouldn't expect that I would expect to be I was first in Mexico [TS]

01:33:31   when it comes out simultaneously like wow the mac really got a boost there [TS]

01:33:34   but that's a user facing feature it's not a developer facing feature and. So yeah. [TS]

01:33:39   There is a priority cascade and it does still affect things but. [TS]

01:33:42   And I would not hold out any hope for improvement of the mac app store I mean like the beta thing you said like you [TS]

01:33:47   know [TS]

01:33:47   and like not allowing people to review from betas look just look at the State of the mac app store application itself. [TS]

01:33:55   Just try to use it for anything try to do anything and try to browse anything. Obviously doing anything to this app. [TS]

01:34:03   Is it must be extraordinarily difficult or impossible. [TS]

01:34:06   Inside Apple to get anything done such as that because it doesn't happen. [TS]

01:34:09   I don't there's a lot of people working on it though I think like the underlying frameworks probably of people working [TS]

01:34:14   on them like the things that you know again with tell you like you can run updates from the application then close the [TS]

01:34:19   application entirely but the out that still run because there are like processes [TS]

01:34:22   and daemons behind the scene that manager software updates. [TS]

01:34:25   Those I think are being worked on because they they you know. You do the O. S. [TS]

01:34:29   Up they didn't they do about this and I think this people working on those. [TS]

01:34:33   But sort of the gooey skin the provides like the view into the store and all that. That seems. [TS]

01:34:38   Like I don't think I can remember the last time a new feature appeared in that. [TS]

01:34:41   Maybe the house on fixing the most egregious bugs or just seems like no one's working on it. [TS]

01:34:45   I can honestly say it's worse than i Tunes. [TS]

01:34:49   It has many of the same problems and challenges of i Tunes of of you know having this. Does a giant web service. [TS]

01:34:56   Rendering what's basically a big web you in the app. Is it went to you or is it like X.M.L. [TS]

01:35:00   Like of the i Tunes stories to be number one i Tunes store is like custom mikes on the Hell. [TS]

01:35:04   Yeah that's a good question if it might be that. [TS]

01:35:06   It feels like a big web you it behaves like a big web company like one of the. [TS]

01:35:09   One of the things they bought try us like chomp or whatever like a thing or the money remitted regular app store. [TS]

01:35:14   Like oh yeah when it [TS]

01:35:15   when they made the search suck even more by having those big cards at all you see want to put a time on screen that was [TS]

01:35:20   great [TS]

01:35:20   and I know why we should be trying to guess what the underlying technologies are who cares we just know the end result [TS]

01:35:24   is an application that does weird things and sometimes the only solution is like closer to relaunch [TS]

01:35:28   or to restart your McAnuff like good. Thanks a lot for three sponsor of this week. Igloo Squarespace and need. [TS]

01:35:35   And we will see you next week. Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to be good because it was accidental. [TS]

01:35:47   The was accidental. John didn't feel any team are going to be seen with him. Because it was accidental. [TS]

01:35:58   It was accidental. And she was going on today. And it's clear that he was no set so that's keep lists and the N.T. [TS]

01:36:20   Markel. Ahmed Maher let's take the risk. She says. I joined a gym. You joined a gym. I joined a gym. [TS]

01:36:45   What are you going to do with the gym. Can lift heavy things. I haven't done that yet. I probably won't. [TS]

01:36:51   Going to run in place like a hamster in a wheel. [TS]

01:36:54   I haven't done that yet I have walked really fast in place though does that count. [TS]

01:36:58   Lay out like a hamster that's not in a hurry. Yeah yeah. Like a hamster who's living readings i Phone. [TS]

01:37:03   How does the work with the official Marco wardrobe. [TS]

01:37:06   What I mean I wear shirts there and I wear them home I'd like to shirts and. It's got a I'm sure you have a shorts. [TS]

01:37:13   That's part of the word group. [TS]

01:37:14   In the summertime Yes I do wear shorts because it's easy it's way too hot for bands in the summertime. [TS]

01:37:18   And I don't like sure I really hate shorts honestly. But. But I own shorts because I live somewhere with the summer. [TS]

01:37:24   That's a season you do have Casey. Yup. So you doing this to fill your circles. I am. Yeah. I mean that you know I. [TS]

01:37:30   Would like to generally stay healthy you know but. But yes a sense of a really is are for the circles. [TS]

01:37:35   So that also those circling in the gym. Are you like you're dropping pounds. Some. Yeah I'm down. [TS]

01:37:42   I don't know like six pounds and for like two months or something I don't know if I'm down some. [TS]

01:37:48   And it's not a dramatic thing as I'm still eating ice cream [TS]

01:37:51   but the apple is the Apple Watch versus blue apron blue prints fine no blue apron is actually great because it's pretty [TS]

01:37:58   small portions. [TS]

01:38:00   It's ever since we started that it's been actually easier to to be healthy and lose weight because it is so. [TS]

01:38:07   It's just it's you know it's a dinner from labor and. [TS]

01:38:11   Even if you add more oil than they tell you to because you have to add more oil may tell you to give the amount they [TS]

01:38:15   tell you to is not nearly enough to frighten actable. [TS]

01:38:18   Even if you add more oil and I tell you to you're still under a thousand calories for dinner. And that's pretty good. [TS]

01:38:22   So anyway. Yeah I mean. I joined a gym because I live in an area with a great variety of weather. [TS]

01:38:31   And a good portion of that weather is not that pleasant to be walking very quickly for three miles outside. [TS]

01:38:38   So I joined earlier this week when it was like ninety degrees. And so one day in a billion percent humidity and. [TS]

01:38:48   I joined a ring that day and it's like ten bucks a month for. What's basically the worst gym in the world. [TS]

01:38:53   But I don't care because the time bucks a month. [TS]

01:38:56   And that's means I don't have to buy a treadmill and put it in the house anywhere. [TS]

01:38:59   So you're scoping out the gym people who do [TS]

01:39:01   and some people watching the on the varieties of people that show up at the gym. In my to visit to the gym so far. [TS]

01:39:07   I have not seen that many other people honestly it's. It's a pretty big Jim. [TS]

01:39:11   And I go at weird times when everyone else is working. So it's. I go when it's almost empty. [TS]

01:39:18   So I've seen a handful of people and I just kind of look straight ahead and look at my watch my phone stuff [TS]

01:39:24   and you're watching video on your i Phone You're reading things you're listening to podcasts. [TS]

01:39:27   I haven't quite figured this out yet. The first the first I've only gone twice this is this week. And it's been nice. [TS]

01:39:34   Other days weeks I've been doing I've been walking outside other days this week. [TS]

01:39:37   But the first time I did podcasts and it was. It was kind of boring because like. [TS]

01:39:42   I'm fine to impact us when I walk outside because like visually I mean used by the outside world. [TS]

01:39:47   But when you're just like locking out a treadmill staring at bad cable T.V. [TS]

01:39:51   That you're not listening to go into pod cast kind of boring. So the last time I went I did I watched. [TS]

01:39:56   Nevins go contact that was really good. And When to that show not I guess. [TS]

01:40:02   So I was [TS]

01:40:03   and that was that was an hour long that was perfect so maybe this might actually be a good time to watch conference [TS]

01:40:06   talks and do other things that are that have a visual component to good use of E.R. Goggles. [TS]

01:40:13   I don't know about that either because every use a treadmill before. Yeah. [TS]

01:40:18   Does the thing where you have like vertigo after you get off does that ever go away. What. [TS]

01:40:23   I can't say that I got that one. Yeah. Maybe just getting light headed because it's only your second day of the gym. [TS]

01:40:31   No maybe it's because you're looking at the screen [TS]

01:40:33   and not paying attention what's going on around Yeah maybe you're getting motion sick. [TS]

01:40:37   Well yeah it's like when I'm on it I'm fine but then if I stop and I've tried like slowing down gradually. But. [TS]

01:40:43   But it doesn't really matter. Whenever I stop. [TS]

01:40:46   I feel like I've gotten off a boat you're like who will you know like I feel if I don't feel great for a few minutes [TS]

01:40:52   afterwards. You might be getting motion sick. [TS]

01:40:55   I mean it's you like the form of motion sickness where it's people chatter saying you get used to it. [TS]

01:41:00   The times I've been in trouble have been staring at an i Phone or front of me. [TS]

01:41:03   It's like it's I don't know what that maybe that is a common thing if you're less Peshitta like the difference in like [TS]

01:41:08   the i Phone or funny when the T.V. [TS]

01:41:09   Across the room I think is a big difference in terms of like where you're where you're focusing. Well it's. [TS]

01:41:13   The problem is it's T.V. On your treadmill right in front of you. [TS]

01:41:16   So [TS]

01:41:17   and I've tried looking at the ceiling looking across the room like I've tried of other things about it doesn't doesn't [TS]

01:41:21   really seem to make a bigger difference. Like where I'm looking at just like. [TS]

01:41:25   I'm running so my body thinks I'm moving forward so it or my brain to move forward. [TS]

01:41:29   So it's probably compensating for that. And then when I stop walking in place. [TS]

01:41:35   And then it's like has like switch back to the uncommented or mode and I think that's what causes that. [TS]

01:41:40   But Save you have B.R. Goggles as you walk he'd be moving through. [TS]

01:41:44   You could be moving through a farce the virtual farce while a virtual scream floats in front of you so you watch Nevins [TS]

01:41:49   conference talk while walking through a virtual Yosemite. [TS]

01:41:53   I could do that or I could just like use the bikes and ellipticals instead. I don't know. [TS]

01:41:57   Are you just walk outside I'm amazed that you face humanity so much that you rather walk in like people usually go to [TS]

01:42:01   the gym like in the winter when you know it's freezing outside. Well and that's I knew like you know. [TS]

01:42:06   I got the Apple Watch in late April. [TS]

01:42:08   When it was really beautiful outside and it's been pretty beautiful since then but I've known like. [TS]

01:42:13   Well winter is going to come eventually. [TS]

01:42:15   And I'm going to like I want to keep this up in the winter and winter here is pretty bad not as bad as you but. [TS]

01:42:20   But pretty bad and. And so I wanted to have some kind of option. And listen to like you know. [TS]

01:42:26   Should I get a treadmill in my house and. It seems like there's almost no reason for a regular person to do that. [TS]

01:42:33   There's like the the. The pros and cons you need some place to hang laundry. Yeah. Well. It ends up there huge like. [TS]

01:42:40   I know the giant turns out all my god like when you're when they're in a gym you don't really realize it but like. [TS]

01:42:45   When he when you like tape out measurements in your house or how big a treadmill actually is. [TS]

01:42:48   Oh my God they're they're massive. And not just a room how much room it takes up but especially for the ones that like. [TS]

01:42:53   If they're like a stair thing or whatever like how much room you need around them for yeah. [TS]

01:42:57   Swinging body parts and getting on and getting off and then the thing has moved on a cell. [TS]

01:43:01   Yeah for the winter activity maybe you have almost the makings Well maybe not for you maybe for Adam. [TS]

01:43:07   If you can get hops. And the other two dogs who your parents have. [TS]

01:43:11   You could have the makings of a kind of like a dog sled team you just need to be like maybe they can pull Adam. [TS]

01:43:16   If you just get four of them instead of three then it would be even though be adorable. Oh my goodness. [TS]

01:43:23   That's we're better than buying a treadmill. [TS]

01:43:24   If now that I put that idea into your head I want to his and pictures of that will work it out. [TS]

01:43:30   Give me one thing that breed of dog does well is pull in the same direction. Right. And you can run and five different. [TS]

01:43:37   Actions will bring. Yeah that'll be interesting. Anyway. [TS]

01:43:41   Yeah you can exercise outside in the winter people do it speaks big number of them have a polka sense is out there with [TS]

01:43:47   his bare feet in twenty degree below weather that Paulk a fox is not a fair comparison he's like a super human. [TS]

01:43:53   That is not it is not fair to hold me up to his standard at all not even close. I just I cannot believe. [TS]

01:43:59   Like when you saw the watch announcement was the first thing that popped in your head. Darn it I'm going to join a gym. [TS]

01:44:05   Not even close right. How did we get from A to B. Here doesn't have the antibodies. It was infected. You're right. [TS]

01:44:13   Because even like when when when we first started seeing good pictures of it. [TS]

01:44:17   I was concerned seeing the sensor bubble on the bottom. [TS]

01:44:20   And I was concerned that would be uncomfortable pressing into my skin so I even have said in the past that before it [TS]

01:44:25   before I got it as a you know if they just made a model that lacked all the fitness features [TS]

01:44:29   and lack that big bubble on the bottom. I'd buy that instead to be more comfortable. And yet now. [TS]

01:44:34   Now that I have it no I would never do that that's stupid. [TS]

01:44:37   I'm depressed at how strong Mandy bodies are [TS]

01:44:39   and how little I care about the circle her really wished I was more like I really I would like maybe you. [TS]

01:44:43   Maybe you'll know it's got Mark was going to do it maybe you know you know I haven't done anything like this in a while [TS]

01:44:47   maybe I'll still get back into it is. God I just can't. [TS]

01:44:51   We can start competing with each other do you have those antibodies or whatever. [TS]

01:44:54   Maybe that would help like that apples really have that integration you have to use like some third party out that you [TS]

01:44:59   strike a underscores that's a pedometer plus lots of authority there like a competition maybe that actually would help [TS]

01:45:05   but I don't know. [TS]

01:45:06   But one of the problems also is that even a watch kit to a lot of the data for the for the circles like. [TS]

01:45:13   I don't think apps have access to all that. [TS]

01:45:15   Like they had you have access to the step count for the for the orange circle [TS]

01:45:19   but I don't think you have access to the green or blue. Yeah. [TS]

01:45:21   The stuck out of the Not that you see like a machine in Montero like competing for their just with their Fit Bit step [TS]

01:45:28   counts I think it all is that the business that count you know how many. [TS]

01:45:31   I think that like my company that does motivate a lot of people maybe I don't like I want to determine what circles. [TS]

01:45:36   When it tells me to get up I do feel a little bit of the old like oh I should probably get up and go for a walk now [TS]

01:45:40   or never. But the bottom line is I'm not feeling of like and. My my whatever devalue of all my circles around it's low. [TS]

01:45:47   I was telling them all doubled every city like I know what it takes to fill them. [TS]

01:45:51   But my daily schedule just does not do enough to fill them at least one my watch them so I tend if I want to go home [TS]

01:45:57   for Mark I want to take my watch off just because I just want to get stuff off my body and then try to totally naked. [TS]

01:46:04   Just you know. Like I have doesn't have any conditions I'm certainly shorts and. [TS]

01:46:11   Yak getting into a home over that involves taking the watch off. [TS]

01:46:15   And so that means anything I do after that I like walking around with the kids or whatever is going to not count. [TS]

01:46:20   But I don't care what are you do you tell you care you care just enough to be annoying to yourself. [TS]

01:46:26   But not enough to actually do it. Yeah. To feel like a little twinge of guilt. [TS]

01:46:30   When I don't feel them actually you're going to be perpetually mildly annoyed by this it doesn't bother me that much. [TS]

01:46:38   I tell you what I am a blue ring. Stud the green in red not so much. [TS]

01:46:45   The green is the hardest when I think I base what I think I feel the other ones [TS]

01:46:48   but the exercise ones because like I don't quite know I never. [TS]

01:46:51   I have never actually initiated like a workout workouts all my green feeling as I get into dental from heart rate stuff. [TS]

01:46:57   and I don't even know how that works like whatever. But I'm just never feeling it. Except for double their E.C. [TS]

01:47:05   To completely change pace house party training going. It's going actually OK good. Yeah it's. [TS]

01:47:11   It's not complete but it's going to be going to day care what it is a reinforcing of their. [TS]

01:47:18   Yes So he goes to preschool and. He's going out to summer camp. Which is just school in the summertime. [TS]

01:47:24   We were able to do this transition with their support and they do it all the time because they have school for two [TS]

01:47:29   and three year old so they have seen lots of potty training and their time in their experts at it so they support it [TS]

01:47:36   and they you know they. You know they do it while he's there so it's good. We're all good. [TS]

01:47:40   They doing any positive feedback stuff like sticker charts or anything like that like either at home [TS]

01:47:44   or at school to try to like reward for for compliance basically sticker I did I had not thought of a stick retard [TS]

01:47:51   that's a good one. [TS]

01:47:52   That's one of the things that I cause that I need they recommended at home [TS]

01:47:55   and like doesn't work as I'm concerned ever but I just have a piece of paper and like every time you do it. [TS]

01:47:59   You get a sticker on the chart and some kids are modified by motivated by [TS]

01:48:02   and some kids aren't I just didn't know if that was one of the things that you are doing. [TS]

01:48:07   Now we are doing like food motivation. Candy and cookies is the. We very quickly learned that you can't reward. [TS]

01:48:17   Going to the bathroom you have to reward like timespans in which you have a had no accidents. [TS]

01:48:23   Because if you reward going to the bathroom then. He just wants to go every five minutes. [TS]

01:48:28   And so that's that's not good. [TS]

01:48:30   So to go back a step you've basically outsourced potty training to the Summer camp is what I'm hearing. [TS]

01:48:36   Well he's there for like two and a half hours a day and it's not like camp is a very you know. [TS]

01:48:42   It's technically called Camp. That's a very generous word for what it really is. It's just preschool in the summertime. [TS]

01:48:48   And it's mostly outside. And that's that's basically it. And preschool as you will learn soon Casey is really short. [TS]

01:48:56   Every day. Like it goes. That two and a half hours goes by very quickly. So I don't doubt it. Yeah. It's been a wild. [TS]

01:49:04   Couple of weeks that the. Sort of kind of able to crawl. Issue. To pretty adept at crawling and. [TS]

01:49:16   He used to up until this point. Barrel Roll. Pretty effectively. To a barrel roll. [TS]

01:49:24   That's a reference on any weight so you barrel barrel roll pretty effectively. [TS]

01:49:28   And then he'd figured out how to crawl in our world is upside down because he doesn't just stay still anymore. [TS]

01:49:34   And kind of petrifying and additionally He's also starting to pull up onto his feet which is adorable to watch [TS]

01:49:41   and wonderful except that he's also he's also doing that in the crypt. [TS]

01:49:46   Which is not as good because then he gets himself all what. [TS]

01:49:49   Well can up and doesn't want to sleep as long and we have to lower the crib again [TS]

01:49:53   and blah blah blah so wild couple of couple weeks the list household my. [TS]

01:49:58   My favorite picture of Declan recently was showing him. Next to your computer with a note that. [TS]

01:50:04   That he'd already pulled off a key cap. Yeah. He has genuinely it had been. [TS]

01:50:08   It had been like fifteen seconds and he crawled over there ripped off a key. It's the great. [TS]

01:50:15   Dawning realisation that like the idea like oh we have a good he won't describe [TS]

01:50:18   or destroy our crap like the second that kid can move it's like I'm going to destroy your crap you that's pretty much [TS]

01:50:24   how we can seek out the most expensive item. [TS]

01:50:26   And I get my little baby finger now learned to ski Kaplan he comes off this is awesome. [TS]

01:50:31   Like I was doing for two seconds. [TS]

01:50:32   Yeah that's pretty much it were you there that's exactly when I did not know kids [TS]

01:50:36   or guy just you to your credit you're not one of the BE ABLE who who would look down and other people [TS]

01:50:41   and said well my child won't destroy my stuff all just make sure they don't touch my things. [TS]

01:50:45   Thank the reason baby proofing of the word. Well. So I'm not like that about most things. [TS]

01:50:52   However I have been very smug about my car never will my car will not get ruined. [TS]

01:50:58   I will not allow my car to get ruined if that means no food in the car straight no food in the car. [TS]

01:51:02   Is there a car seat installed in your car now. Yes. So there's been for a while. So isn't it. Destroying your seeds. [TS]

01:51:07   As we speak. Oh I've. For cover. [TS]

01:51:11   I've I've had similar good luck I mean you know we we also like there just by policy there's no food in the car. [TS]

01:51:17   Like just and that's been fine. You know we also have a policy that you don't take my seat. And so far. [TS]

01:51:24   I mean he's sometimes forget think he's pretty soon you will. But so far. Overall it's pretty good. [TS]

01:51:31   You don't have to rethink the seat kicking I don't really depends on your kid I think you can pull the seeking thing my [TS]

01:51:36   kids. Not really. But the thing and they were the last of their pretty long time and it would last forever. [TS]

01:51:41   Is that I told them that the seats have airbags in them which is true. And that are breaking an explosive. [TS]

01:51:47   Which is true. And that if you pick the seeds you called to explode which is not true but they don't know that. [TS]

01:51:53   That's amazing actually. I don't think I ever did I don't think I ever actually told them they cause I would say. [TS]

01:51:57   The seats of our bags in the mare banks of explosives I think that's all I would say and I would say in an alarm voice. [TS]

01:52:02   And they would stop kicking and it was awesome. [TS]

01:52:03   There were a lot until they were like you know what these things are never exploding kick kick out as a good boy you'll [TS]

01:52:12   need to do that with Declan are now you look like a scamp. [TS]

01:52:15   I can't tell but I think you can trouble Casey I can't wait to see Casey just go through all this because like. [TS]

01:52:20   It's not like I'm any expert on it but just just by being like two years ahead of him bathe like. That's like. [TS]

01:52:26   That's amazing to me like like seeing. [TS]

01:52:28   Like seeing that he's like you know you're going through like the beginning of mobility. Which is as you said. [TS]

01:52:34   Terrifying for the bare skin. Oh yeah. And yet. [TS]

01:52:38   What's what's great about parenting is that every time you think you have the current stage down pat. [TS]

01:52:45   Oh yeah everything then changes with the next day. It's like. So like yeah you know we finally got him to. [TS]

01:52:51   You know eat and sleep. Oh my God. Now he's moving. Oh God Now you heard cell phone every possible thing. Yeah. [TS]

01:52:59   And then. [TS]

01:53:00   You know once you get that down then he's going to start learning how to open doors and go outside [TS]

01:53:06   and then I'll get some attitude. Yeah that if you get some attitude then. You know then eventually. [TS]

01:53:11   You have a thing down the nope. Delete the diapers. My god like every everything is like. [TS]

01:53:18   You know it's hard and then you've. Yeah. I've asked a lot of parents. Most of whom are. You know roughly my age. [TS]

01:53:30   You know what what is their secret what if you learn what should I know. [TS]

01:53:33   And the single most consistent answer I've gotten almost every time. [TS]

01:53:39   Is don't get you stand anything because the moment you do it all changes. That's good. Yeah. John has front door. [TS]

01:53:46   Do you have a front door yet. They are offering a new one. So you have a front door in like three more months. [TS]

01:53:52   Maybe two to three weeks or ever. [TS]

01:53:55   Hopefully though it will happen between the vacation I'm leaving on now in the vacation I'm leaving on after the some [TS]

01:54:03   time between that but anyway people have been painting. How is that going that well. [TS]

01:54:10   I don't know what I don't I have yet to find someone who does what I think is a good job of painting anything. [TS]

01:54:16   Because all about surplus prop. [TS]

01:54:17   Like you know they just they just they just want to get to the point where they start slapping on the paint. [TS]

01:54:22   Like I want the surface to be smoothed out before you start slapping on the band to think about how it's going to look [TS]

01:54:28   when it's finished painting it's like Miller good my father. What we learned when we've only done both renovations. [TS]

01:54:36   You know to actually to can paint her and she looked like she her parents can paint like the whole room. You know. [TS]

01:54:42   No time at all. It turns out professional painters. Are really no better than good. You know home top painters just. [TS]

01:54:50   You don't have to do it. That's the big thing. Like you're not paying them to do a better job than you could do. [TS]

01:54:55   You're paying them. So that you don't have to do it. That's it. Oh I see. [TS]

01:54:59   I continue to believe there must be contractors out there like the ones on ice and T.V. That do do a good job. [TS]

01:55:04   And especially with things like surface prep sometimes you can't do what they do because you don't have the tools to [TS]

01:55:08   the pens of the server like if you're painting a room like big walls or big and flat. [TS]

01:55:11   Fine [TS]

01:55:12   but if you're painting like the trim around a window where you just pulled all storm windows from the cities there wreck [TS]

01:55:16   you have to spend a lot of time and service from pulling off old caked on paint. Filling in voids. [TS]

01:55:22   Sanding everything down so it's smooth and. [TS]

01:55:25   I don't know that I could do a better job of that fresh [TS]

01:55:27   and it was mostly going to have all the tools all the little like. [TS]

01:55:30   Just a plain all random orbit sander with a little tiny Sanders to get into the corners [TS]

01:55:34   and all the experience filling things and like just that just takes a long time [TS]

01:55:39   but like they don't I mean you could buy the tool at Home Depot for like thirty bucks if you need to do it given the [TS]

01:55:43   limited time yes I could but I would take the amount of time they took to do all my trim. [TS]

01:55:47   I would get one window done better job [TS]

01:55:49   and they do on that one hundred open I would get one of mine that I would I be there like [TS]

01:55:52   and others like you know a good enough. You're not compelled to see it was a street paint paint paint. [TS]

01:55:57   Well exactly that's a thing they like you're not paying for them to be doing it for them to do a better job than you [TS]

01:56:01   could do. You're paying some to do it so that you don't have to do and they can do it faster. Anyway. Almost on. [TS]

01:56:08   Almost on front door. [TS]

01:56:09   I think the front row is going to the worst part though because there's a bunch of carpentry stuff around there [TS]

01:56:13   and it's just like that's been hand waved over and we just have like see our front door looks now. [TS]

01:56:17   We want us like that but with a new door. And I go Yeah sure no problem like. [TS]

01:56:23   I keep asking is what party going to move or do you need to put back Obama [TS]

01:56:26   but they look as well not exactly like what I mean but that's going to be bad. But anyway. [TS]

01:56:32   If there was ever a time that any human being should periscope anything. It's the. [TS]

01:56:38   Conversations that you have with your contractors. [TS]

01:56:41   Because they've got to be just they're very one sided involve a lot of nodding [TS]

01:56:44   and smiling from the other end of the conversation and then me going. Yeah just. They HATE YOU SO MUCH don't think. [TS]

01:56:51   I don't know I don't know if they mean I just I do you tip them. No place for certificate on tractors. [TS]

01:57:00   So I thought the amount I'm paying these people know. [TS]

01:57:03   I we didn't have any of our contractors are we likely to keep only by bagels and suffer the guys that were working [TS]

01:57:09   but like. We wouldn't I mean. Yeah you're paying a lot for those like. I don't think is a tipping thing yeah. [TS]

01:57:14   Seriously. Tremendous amount of money. They can take their tip of the tremendous amount of money and pay. Yeah. [TS]

01:57:20   I don't like. You don't you don't tip like when you buy a car. [TS]

01:57:23   I don't think that's really an apples to apples comparison. But that's about the same out of money. I don't. [TS]

01:57:28   I have full I fully confess that I have no idea when it's appropriate to tip but I also hate tipping as a concept. [TS]

01:57:33   And so I am. I'm probably a bad person. [TS]

01:57:36   I've been to places where I'm supposed to tip I do but I really have no idea [TS]

01:57:40   when I'm solicited other than like eating at restaurants that's it. [TS]

01:57:42   And staying at hotels and I use both a good there would only be like Google that. [TS]

01:57:45   What I never tip in a hotel ever ask you think that that's what the how much is that [TS]

01:57:50   when I googled for there were like a couple bucks a day. And that's what I've been sticking to. [TS]

01:57:54   Well yeah [TS]

01:57:55   and then the problem is the need like you need small bills that lets you know the little envelopes on the desk. [TS]

01:57:59   It's That's that's for housekeeping tips like the most hotel rooms is like there's a small envelope. [TS]

01:58:03   What's that says some kind of passive aggressive thing on it. [TS]

01:58:06   And that is that is for you to put the housekeeping to things if you sleeve cash around. [TS]

01:58:10   Then they might assume that your cash. You can leave it. [TS]

01:58:13   You can you want to leave it in and even if you don't you download you just want to leave with a note. [TS]

01:58:18   The you know for housekeeping or thank you or something in a way that they know that you didn't X. [TS]

01:58:22   and I leave it because housekeeping people don't want to take random cash lying around with ANY like a housekeeping [TS]

01:58:26   stole from a bike when you're checking out takes a lot of cash. Couple bucks a day or whatever. Put it so. [TS]

01:58:32   Where with a note that makes it clear this is for housekeeping money. [TS]

01:58:35   You know I don't think I've ever done that my entire life yeah it's a big pain as you either have to have like you know. [TS]

01:58:40   Let's hear doing a few bucks a day or five bucks a there's a whole bunch of fives. When you get there or. [TS]

01:58:45   You have to like to play a twenty at the end [TS]

01:58:47   but then like that could be a different person than who work the last few days the. [TS]

01:58:51   I just do it all the end I don't do it every day. Because I just too much of a hassle like that in my googling. [TS]

01:58:56   What I've discovered is like that if you do it all in one day. [TS]

01:59:00   It evens out in the end for the people who work there like you're right it might not be the same person or whatever [TS]

01:59:04   but it's not as if one person has a line on one everybody's checking out [TS]

01:59:07   and gets all the money I could even doubt across the whole staff. [TS]

01:59:11   That's good because it usually obviously put a twenty on there than the last day and then the called Call day [TS]

01:59:15   but this is lunacy to me I've never heard this for say the tipping is crazy I hated the passion I think we just they [TS]

01:59:22   just raise the prices for everything and pay people living wages and so on and so do you tip barbers. [TS]

01:59:27   Yes I do you know. The I do too and. So it was a dilemma so my barber you know usually. I only have twenty's. [TS]

01:59:34   Because that's what I am the give out and. Whenever I have a small bill that hits. [TS]

01:59:39   When it went into my pockets at night. [TS]

01:59:40   They collect somewhere on my desk and I forgot to put them back in the next morning. [TS]

01:59:43   You should really only have fifty zero and I feel like Marco with your empty. [TS]

01:59:48   You should be a type of person who only has a fifty is like a grandpa. So at the barber. [TS]

01:59:53   The barber I'm going to for years of these four county guys they're amazing. [TS]

01:59:56   These to turn sixteen dollars for a haircut so I give them twenty. They keep the extra for perfect. [TS]

02:00:01   The neighbor has the price of seventeen dollars. Now I don't want to just give him twenty again because now it's like. [TS]

02:00:06   I just you know. You haven't twenty one. [TS]

02:00:08   Right right so now I have to remember to bring a single now every time so I give you a change of you given to twenty [TS]

02:00:14   the give you change. I'm not that stocks that such a half a market. Three dollars on seventeen that's fission tip. [TS]

02:00:20   But but it's like. It's like there. It's like they took they took a pay cut. Well it's not your fault. [TS]

02:00:25   Kind of dog is it doesn't want to have a single of them like just given to do anything given change it's find I don't [TS]

02:00:30   know I guess I just bring a single one of our member to be. [TS]

02:00:32   That's it so much like I don't want to give them less a less tip than before. [TS]

02:00:37   Why did you give give them a twenty dollar bill and one silver dollar like a grandma. That would grip. [TS]

02:00:43   Do those still exist be still get those I want to got I'm still in circulation somewhere. Give a two dollar bill. [TS]

02:00:50   I lost the titles. Floppy care and lack of stick. It's amazing when they're better when I think. [TS]

02:00:58   Remember seeing a better once over blue ring stud that was my other favorite. [TS]

02:01:02   That is really good actually it's probably better than floppy hair. [TS]

02:01:05   Even though that is not really related to anything I think it's a good title. [TS]

02:01:10   And I just want people to listen they have waiting for black holes bullring start it all away at the end that it has [TS]

02:01:16   like nothing to do with like read it or the mac app star. [TS]

02:01:19   I think it's be a thing the case you know how to stand up guys. [TS]

02:01:25   I don't understand you know your son knows how to stand where did he learn that from he got those standing genes for me. [TS]

02:01:30   I know how to stand. Yeah I can stand up there you go. Just like dad. Just like your dad and goodness. [TS]