The Accidental Tech Podcast

127: Not a Cactus in Sight


00:00:00   how do you pronounce STA HP wow that's a word yesterday as well not really but [TS]

00:00:06   it's what the kids say when they really want you to stop doing some visits tap I [TS]

00:00:10   guess tap I don't know what might that I don't know I'm gonna go with staff like [TS]

00:00:16   maybe maybe like the the Great Lakes accent staff yes because that's what [TS]

00:00:21   this podcast needs is more talk about regional accents yes definitely I [TS]

00:00:26   actually got called out of work today in a happy way some co-worker asked me a [TS]

00:00:32   coworker that I just started working life asked me if I was from Jersey well [TS]

00:00:35   that part wasn't happy at all that was miserable but but point being I said [TS]

00:00:40   mash on something as until like it emphatically or repeatedly and [TS]

00:00:45   apparently that's a northeastern thing or so I'm told [TS]

00:00:48   well that's a drink in Great Britain smoke sure whatever that was squash that [TS]

00:00:53   you're thinking of squash so so Def's when she heard that she said it's [TS]

00:01:01   probably like getting like frozen fruit concentrate here if the fruit juice [TS]

00:01:04   concentrate I think that's correct from the most I can piece together but as we [TS]

00:01:09   talked about on the last episode of analog I emergency I sent an emergency [TS]

00:01:14   tax to underscore David Smith the internets arbiter of all things UK vs [TS]

00:01:19   American and also the internets historian and he indicated to me that we [TS]

00:01:25   do not have anything that's really equipment to squash but we have things [TS]

00:01:29   that have that name but it's different like football but we have that but [TS]

00:01:32   that's not what you think it is it's either football or vegetable yeah [TS]

00:01:38   so anyway I was asking you what's going on with cellular downloads on overcast [TS]

00:01:43   and in this is ok because I see in the show notes it says pre follow-up market [TS]

00:01:48   stocks I do not type at this time I don't know who did clearly it was John [TS]

00:01:53   just keep adding sections but about pre preval will get there maybe next episode [TS]

00:01:58   what happens if the pre follow-up generates follow-up next episode where [TS]

00:02:03   do we put it then they get sucked into regular follow it as yet brief follow-up [TS]

00:02:07   follow-up I don't think so he's getting recursive no I was asking you what's [TS]

00:02:14   going on with your downloads an overcast because he seemed to be stressing out [TS]

00:02:17   about it quite a bit [TS]

00:02:18   well it's you know if this is a constant battle I have with designing overcast is [TS]

00:02:24   like how to strike the balance between offering settings for customization vs [TS]

00:02:32   complexity of the app because if you look like so many well featured [TS]

00:02:37   well-regarded podcast apps have just these massive setting screens and it's [TS]

00:02:42   not because they're badly designed by idiots it's because it's a hard problem [TS]

00:02:47   and when you make a podcast app everybody asked for all these features [TS]

00:02:50   and it's really hard to please a large number of people without adding a ton of [TS]

00:02:55   options and customizations and features I have always tried to differentiate [TS]

00:03:00   overcast from the other well-established compliance by being simpler in those [TS]

00:03:06   regards its really really hard to keep that up to to manage that is like right [TS]

00:03:10   now I'm working on version 2.0 one of the big features of to point out there [TS]

00:03:14   willing to talk about is streaming I've been working and screaming for a long [TS]

00:03:18   time they mention on this show [TS]

00:03:19   couple times in various after shows it does finally work it is working I've [TS]

00:03:24   been using it myself for the last couple weeks ago we like it it works well it is [TS]

00:03:30   solid and it is awesome and to be clear it works with smart see course I [TS]

00:03:35   wouldn't do without it [TS]

00:03:36   that's what I thought just wanna make sure now I have to have to face the [TS]

00:03:39   other issues of having streaming in the app so there there are certain options [TS]

00:03:44   that it needs things like you know what do you do when a new episode comes into [TS]

00:03:49   you [TS]

00:03:50   market for streaming or do you [TS]

00:03:51   downloaded automatically there has to be some choice there has to be sure like [TS]

00:03:57   what do you do if you're playing a playlist and the episode ends and the [TS]

00:04:01   next episode is a streaming episode but you are offline what do you do no matter [TS]

00:04:07   what you pick your gonna gonna anger some people and you're gonna play some [TS]

00:04:12   people and it's really hard to know a lot of times ahead of time which one of [TS]

00:04:16   those sides come out ahead so it [TS]

00:04:21   the question I have now is should I permit cellular data usage for his right [TS]

00:04:27   now I have cellular downloads and so in a world where you at that you have mixed [TS]

00:04:32   streaming and downloads now you have to have a little more control over that so [TS]

00:04:38   it's it's questionable so no question that the thing that I agree on no [TS]

00:04:44   question is that cellular data not only will be allowed for streaming but it [TS]

00:04:49   will be allowed by default and will be on by default because in the world we [TS]

00:04:53   live in today I think people widely expect things to just work when you tap [TS]

00:04:59   them and lots of other media app stream by default over cellular and don't ask [TS]

00:05:04   you first things like YouTube or most of the streaming music services although I [TS]

00:05:08   think Apple music does not think they've they asked you first but anyway [TS]

00:05:12   almost all media streaming apps they will just do it if you if you say play [TS]

00:05:17   this video and you're on cellular in your phone it will just do it over [TS]

00:05:21   cellular animal and that's fine you know so no question streaming has to be there [TS]

00:05:25   and it has to be enabled by default over over cellular the problem is there are [TS]

00:05:30   lots of these tweets 20 everybody thinks that they have the most advanced world [TS]

00:05:35   view on this issue and so and of course I'm the stupid Americans I don't know [TS]

00:05:40   what the rest of the road is like so I have heard from about equal numbers [TS]

00:05:44   today [TS]

00:05:45   of people saying both in my country we have very bad data plans are you have to [TS]

00:05:50   have restrictions and the rest of the world works this way and therefore you [TS]

00:05:54   to have very strong restrictions and I've also heard from other people saying [TS]

00:05:58   well in my country everybody has unlimited data and that's that's the [TS]

00:06:01   world we live in now and so you don't need to even bother with this [TS]

00:06:04   I've heard both ends of a lot but right now I have to cellular options in the ad [TS]

00:06:12   and I wish I could get away with just one but right now I have to say that the [TS]

00:06:16   big one the main one is whether I allow background or foreground and whatever [TS]

00:06:23   when the app downloads full episodes ahead of time already getting [TS]

00:06:26   notification or whatever when it that would split the serbs do you down the [TS]

00:06:29   whole thing over cellular or dua for wifi so that is an option and I think [TS]

00:06:33   that option is good that that deserves to stick around because if you can [TS]

00:06:38   street and you say I play this right now has an action you're taking your [TS]

00:06:42   deliberately saying play this episode right now and I i recognizing them [TS]

00:06:47   playing a podcast while my phone on its own network this might use data [TS]

00:06:51   you know but if you background download things that just come in like you know [TS]

00:06:55   overnight somebody could blow their data cap if released by their favorite [TS]

00:07:00   podcast you know maybe to feed messes up and they'd release like 10 new episodes [TS]

00:07:04   accidentally in the phone downloads 10 things over cellular without them even [TS]

00:07:06   knowing initiating it so it makes sense to differentiate between automatic [TS]

00:07:11   background downloads using it and things that you initiate the user for playback [TS]

00:07:15   using it so that makes sense you should have an option to disable cellular on [TS]

00:07:20   background that's fine but then there's an iOS annoyance that I have its I [TS]

00:07:27   consider it a bug I'm not sure that Apple does for every app that you have [TS]

00:07:32   on your phone that uses data at all you can go into settings and you can turn [TS]

00:07:36   off cellular data usage for the appt at the at the iOS level so the app doesn't [TS]

00:07:41   have to have an option for that you can just go on the disabled and many people [TS]

00:07:44   do for unlimited plans who really need to watch they're they're so the problem [TS]

00:07:50   is in previous versions of iOS you've always had this this so-called reach [TS]

00:07:55   ability API it actually has a long CFO network whatever name but it's short and [TS]

00:08:00   everyone says the reachability API and this is the API the can notify you of [TS]

00:08:04   changes in Internet connectivity so that you can for instance your app can know [TS]

00:08:09   whether the connections offline and when it goes back online and you can also [TS]

00:08:13   tell whether it's online via cellular or wi-fi or neither [TS]

00:08:16   right so [TS]

00:08:17   you can make a whole bunch of intelligent decisions and it isn't [TS]

00:08:19   perfect sometimes it isn't that reliable but it's pretty close its pretty good [TS]

00:08:22   most the time in previous versions before iOS eight if somebody turned off [TS]

00:08:28   that cellular option for you in system settings so that they say this Afghan [TS]

00:08:32   you sold it anymore [TS]

00:08:33   your app would see when an API and I online the system would say no you're [TS]

00:08:40   offline so the app [TS]

00:08:42   couldn't help us which was on it just seemed like it was offline and so if the [TS]

00:08:48   app tried something it would show that our knowing dialog box that everyone has [TS]

00:08:52   seen that says cellular data is disabled for appname you you can enable it in [TS]

00:08:57   settings and there's no way for a nap to initiate a network connection that does [TS]

00:09:03   not show that box so there's no way that I can say like I'm gonna do a background [TS]

00:09:07   sync here if it fails the user doesn't even need to know doesn't matter it's [TS]

00:09:11   not it's not important or download some artwork for the show that's showing in [TS]

00:09:15   the stable cell if that fails it doesn't matter either just you know you don't [TS]

00:09:18   have to alert the user with a modal dialog box saying so they don't offer me [TS]

00:09:22   downloading artwork to show a table so doesn't matter that smart thing to do as [TS]

00:09:27   a developer in that case was too before you do something optional that the user [TS]

00:09:32   didn't really initiate you know something like a background check reach [TS]

00:09:37   ability and if it says it's offline don't even try and then that dialogue [TS]

00:09:41   will never show up because if you don't do that every time somebody goes to your [TS]

00:09:45   appetite for us to do background sync and they've disabled cell data for your [TS]

00:09:49   appt the connection bodily failed but also that box in Illinois the crap out [TS]

00:09:52   of them and so then they will write you saying why does your app keeps showing [TS]

00:09:56   this box if they don't know if it's a system box you have any control over so [TS]

00:09:59   that's that's bad anyway with iOS ate there is what I consider a bug which is [TS]

00:10:05   if someone has disabled cellular data for your app in iOS settings reach [TS]

00:10:10   ability API will tell you that you are online it will not say you're offline [TS]

00:10:15   anymore so that you have no way to tell whether you are online unrestricted or [TS]

00:10:21   whether you are online but was celebrated disabled and so [TS]

00:10:25   you can't avoid making those requests and you also still can't make a request [TS]

00:10:31   that's marked as some kind of option also doesn't get a dialog box so [TS]

00:10:35   therefore if someone disables that for your appt and you try to make connection [TS]

00:10:40   it will shut up box every time or at least like you know once every 10 [TS]

00:10:43   minutes or whatever the intent of throwing on citizenship and constantly [TS]

00:10:46   but it still shows them enough that it annoys people in the email so in order [TS]

00:10:50   to the 22 work around this slightly I I had to add the second option called sync [TS]

00:10:57   over cellular that's it picky details [TS]

00:11:00   settings level is very very other options and the reason why this is there [TS]

00:11:05   is not to let people save data because it doesn't say that Makita its to let [TS]

00:11:09   people avoid that dialog box if they disabled cell data from my whole apt [TS]

00:11:13   because it with that if you trigger that option then I won't even attempt to make [TS]

00:11:18   those connections over cellular because again I can't distinguish between [TS]

00:11:21   cellular the time allowed to use and so and so they're not allowed these so that [TS]

00:11:26   setting that's what that whole thing is for it to work around this giant bug in [TS]

00:11:30   iOS aid that i think is still there in nineteen you know how to do some tests [TS]

00:11:35   maybe I really hoping I fixed it but I don't think it did but I'll double check [TS]

00:11:38   before next weekend before next week's show and report back because if if that [TS]

00:11:45   fixes I can remove option and that that we also anyway for the look very long [TS]

00:11:50   winded thing here anyway so now faced with the question of of adding streaming [TS]

00:11:57   to dissident and having spent of solar controller streaming do I have 3 [TS]

00:12:01   cellular data options that's terrible I have to give me a whole separate screen [TS]

00:12:07   for them and explain its I mean I will if I have to but that sounds terrible or [TS]

00:12:12   my best idea so far is to keep the two options I have now and just attack [TS]

00:12:18   streaming to the second one so that the background download still separately [TS]

00:12:22   controllable is that something I can see somebody wanting to do background [TS]

00:12:26   download only when their MiFi but be willing to stream wherever they are they [TS]

00:12:30   actually asked for it the second option rather than calling it sink over [TS]

00:12:34   cellular rename it to stream and sync over cellular [TS]

00:12:39   that makes sense that this is very long very boring this is that although that [TS]

00:12:43   does make sense I would probably agree with you that think over cellular could [TS]

00:12:49   becomes stream in sync over study where I know it's interesting because I have [TS]

00:12:56   an unlimited data plan from AT&T my iphone have gotten grandfathered in and [TS]

00:13:00   I'm never had a terribly compelling reason reason to walk away from it I [TS]

00:13:04   know that I could probably save a few bucks a month if I didn't keep it [TS]

00:13:08   anymore but whatever it is what it is however on my iPad as I've said numerous [TS]

00:13:13   times in the past I have the 300 makes a month from t-mobile and that's typically [TS]

00:13:19   how I use cellular on my iPad if I'm going to use it at all and occasionally [TS]

00:13:25   all on vacation for example actually pay for a few gigs for that month or [TS]

00:13:30   whatever but generally speaking I just live on the 220 a month and so I have [TS]

00:13:35   gone in on my iPad and turned off cellular data at the Iowa State level [TS]

00:13:39   pretty much everywhere and I can assure you that if I saw that dialog all the [TS]

00:13:45   time when using overcast are driving not so I think you need to stick around with [TS]

00:13:48   Nikki detailed version and I see no reason not to put sink in their excuse [TS]

00:13:54   me a stream in there especially since anytime you're streaming from what I [TS]

00:13:58   have gathered from you any single time you're streaming like you've said a [TS]

00:14:02   couple times it's based on user action so at that point I should know what I'm [TS]

00:14:07   doing and I should know no matter how advanced user I am if I'm trying to play [TS]

00:14:12   a podcast that is not on my device it's gonna have to come from somewhere and if [TS]

00:14:16   I'm not on wifi if I'm not on the fan jokingly called around these parts then [TS]

00:14:22   I know that it's gonna have to go via cellular and I should be able to figure [TS]

00:14:28   that out so I think you've got the right approach medicare is here with john has [TS]

00:14:31   failed and there is one little complexity that you said as long as [TS]

00:14:35   you're streaming and you always shows that there are scenarios in which you [TS]

00:14:39   can unexpectedly Street [TS]

00:14:42   condition well [TS]

00:14:45   so for instance suppose you are on a trip that you know suppose you have it [TS]

00:14:52   set to the new episodes come in in streaming basically you disable auto [TS]

00:14:57   download right so the new episodes coming in March for streaming on me that [TS]

00:15:01   they're not automatically download it by default [TS]

00:15:03   ok so you have it set that way you will listen to a playlist and you've [TS]

00:15:07   downloaded everything on the playlist anyway cuz you're gonna go somewhere and [TS]

00:15:10   so you like a lot of want to burn on my data trips on a download everything in [TS]

00:15:14   advance while you're listening to something and the screen is off a new [TS]

00:15:18   episode comes in its march for streaming by default and it's inserted right after [TS]

00:15:22   the thing you're listening to [TS]

00:15:23   so as you're listening the the episode the two ends it starts up the next [TS]

00:15:28   episode which is a streaming-only episode so it is possible for seeming to [TS]

00:15:34   happen to you [TS]

00:15:35   somewhat unexpectedly it's not going to be the common case but it is possible so [TS]

00:15:39   like the web it just happens to read exactly so you see there there are a lot [TS]

00:15:45   of the complexities like a lot of people said you guys probably dialog asking [TS]

00:15:50   people to approve streaming when you're on sailor have an option to that the [TS]

00:15:53   problem is lots of times when when I have to make that decision [TS]

00:15:58   the display of the phone is office in somebody's pocket or in somebody's doc [TS]

00:16:02   somewhere on in a car in their house and lot of times when you're driving really [TS]

00:16:05   I really shouldn't be asking people to interact with the UI that's dangerous or [TS]

00:16:10   you know you or your like exercising and it's in your pocket and you you know [TS]

00:16:14   it's there's all these situations where I have to make a decision without asking [TS]

00:16:20   the user with a dialog box so I I think the way to do it is to just have it is [TS]

00:16:26   to just never prompt the user for this decision just have a setting that you [TS]

00:16:30   can change either on or off and John what do you have to say about this and [TS]

00:16:34   he talked about all these settings makes me think that like the key point here is [TS]

00:16:38   not the wrong account of little toggle switches you have in your settings I [TS]

00:16:42   know this sort of you know combinatorial explosion of [TS]

00:16:46   possibility bugs of giving the counter under control is a good first [TS]

00:16:49   approximation of how you should keep from going crazy but for the cellular [TS]

00:16:53   stuff setting aside the bugs which you know what can you do just follow the [TS]

00:16:57   radars and keep your fingers crossed the settings did come to mind when you're [TS]

00:17:03   describing all the functionality that I can imagine users feeling comfortable in [TS]

00:17:06   the way of conceptualizing is somewhere in the settings screen there's going to [TS]

00:17:10   be a list of their split into wifi and cellular just do celular like wi-fi as a [TS]

00:17:16   disabling wifi here the things I want this out to be a lot to do in cellular [TS]

00:17:20   as justice it's a fairly long list of things to say yes to that noted that yes [TS]

00:17:24   then they get increasingly specific about them you could start for the [TS]

00:17:28   future and that's when I hear like stream in sync over cellular to see a [TS]

00:17:32   cellular section what amounted to oversell you download new episodes [TS]

00:17:36   stream episodes that have asked you to stream and download stream episodes they [TS]

00:17:41   come in while this new Potter know what the options are you can you can go [TS]

00:17:44   through all the possibilities than just because I think that's a lot of options [TS]

00:17:47   and it's like who wants to answer these questions you can accomplish some set of [TS]

00:17:51   the false do you think are appropriate for most people don't someone go to [TS]

00:17:54   settings I can imagine I'm going down list going yes no no yes and if you want [TS]

00:17:59   to help them you can't even put like average of X number of megabytes over [TS]

00:18:03   the past month which party will help them initially he can't be populated [TS]

00:18:06   areas you don't know what do you suggest that you click here for everybody but [TS]

00:18:09   after months of usage they can go down that list and sell it was using all my [TS]

00:18:12   cell didn't like I want overcast to you know the only guests like what things I [TS]

00:18:17   don't understand is just a couple of Dayton you can see over the past month [TS]

00:18:20   because you allowed to download new episodes over cellular its use this [TS]

00:18:24   amount of data right and then they can you know it's just a bunch of us going [TS]

00:18:28   gets no no no yes no I feel like six seven eight nine and ten options in that [TS]

00:18:32   type of thing isn't crazy especially look at the actual iOS settings means [TS]

00:18:35   they're just a wall tiles which is that people are ok go on who can use location [TS]

00:18:39   did not you unite uuu [TS]

00:18:42   at you like I think that's a reasonable interaction even though it seems really [TS]

00:18:47   complicated if you're going to have this complexity anyway because you've got all [TS]

00:18:49   these conditions in the hood like when do I do so when do I do that and you're [TS]

00:18:52   gonna pick defaults for them just throw in the switches buried in a section if [TS]

00:18:56   it makes you feel better but I think that is actually the most [TS]

00:18:59   straightforward way as long as you sort of organized these fleets of switches [TS]

00:19:03   into logical groups then people feel like they're you know that each one [TS]

00:19:08   because like this topic the topic is not yet rated like this is what overcast [TS]

00:19:13   allowed to do over your cell connection like anyone there in that frame of mind [TS]

00:19:17   I feel like they're in the mode to go down those questions and just sort of [TS]

00:19:21   you know give Yes or Nothe rather than just going down it listed options at [TS]

00:19:26   having to reach one and see what topic is what is it discussing whether the [TS]

00:19:29   decision not to make me go to the next one which is entirely unrelated to this [TS]

00:19:32   one talking about what is it discussing you know whatever I don't know why I [TS]

00:19:37   maybe I haven't thought of all the options but of all the ones you listen [TS]

00:19:39   so far Mike those are all reasonable things that people could conceivably [TS]

00:19:45   want settings for but I think there's no way to to express that in the UI without [TS]

00:19:52   that really big long list of options are going to try to combine them into a [TS]

00:19:55   single line enemy gets confusing because it's less clear what's going on you're [TS]

00:20:01   like people might want different options for the two things you combine into one [TS]

00:20:03   of your settings we'll end there's there's more complexity to it than that [TS]

00:20:07   look like it it isn't as simple as do i have you know combating to do I have a [TS]

00:20:12   whole bunch of settings and a big long list is one of the biggest problems is [TS]

00:20:15   it with a big long list there is a cost to having that in the app in in that [TS]

00:20:22   like people will see that screen it will confuse them and it will give them the [TS]

00:20:26   general impression that either this app is too complex for my taste or I don't [TS]

00:20:33   understand this and therefore I don't feel good about it and it's you know [TS]

00:20:36   people to be made to feel don't be confused by your burying it you buried [TS]

00:20:40   in the advanced turn it picky or whatever section like I don't think [TS]

00:20:42   anyone's gonna go to Settings period unless the app doesn't do it by default [TS]

00:20:45   so it's all about picking the good to discuss thank you have a good handle on [TS]

00:20:48   what the reasonable defaults are you just want to have a go to section [TS]

00:20:52   them and someone gets in tonight mobile they feel like this happens doing [TS]

00:20:56   something that I don't that's why I mentioned the sizes on the things [TS]

00:20:58   because what they really want is stop using so much of my data and just a [TS]

00:21:03   bunch of switches or even one or two options even if just two options which [TS]

00:21:07   one of those if I change will make it use less of my data that's why stats on [TS]

00:21:11   like because this thing has been enabled we have downloaded this number of things [TS]

00:21:15   over your cell connection over this period of time so and even if just to [TS]

00:21:19   settings and two numbers and ok well that's the one that using my dad is on [TS]

00:21:22   internet one friend and I probably its stature tricky because I don't know if I [TS]

00:21:29   can really guarantee them like like I think it'd be hard to measure total [TS]

00:21:33   bytes used accurately there's there's things like redirects and header sizes [TS]

00:21:39   and everything that like you know I have to go very low level in the API is to be [TS]

00:21:43   able to actually count all of those accurately so like I wouldn't I want I [TS]

00:21:47   don't really want to be in the game of being incredibly specific is also [TS]

00:21:51   there's there's some degree of liability there you know maybe not sure legally [TS]

00:21:55   wouldn't cause any problems with it might anger people like if I if I say [TS]

00:21:58   something that is wrong so if I say for instance like if I had been the app age [TS]

00:22:04   a big target says all cell data off I don't offer that because I can't [TS]

00:22:09   guarantee that my Apple use no soda the iOS at the system level option can I [TS]

00:22:14   can't because there are things like wk web you and a WebView the tries to load [TS]

00:22:19   images I can't prevent that from hitting the cell network easily I can't [TS]

00:22:24   guarantee that my Apple use noted so that's why I don't offer that option [TS]

00:22:27   also I don't I don't show the file sizes of the podcasts before their downloaded [TS]

00:22:33   a lot of people request this is the big problem that is it really busy at work [TS]

00:22:37   we're doing it had requested the files for you downloaded and like right before [TS]

00:22:41   you download it to really get to really get it accurately [TS]

00:22:43   there is a field for in feed for people to specify that we do in our feed but [TS]

00:22:48   that is manually entered by a human being so it is unreliable and is often [TS]

00:22:52   absent the only way to do it is to head request and I could do this herbicide [TS]

00:22:56   for every single thing that's that's complicated and that's also kinda [TS]

00:22:59   unreliable in one of the server [TS]

00:23:01   you know what if one of these things block me that every port 0 for [TS]

00:23:04   everything what if my information is out of date rape the first crawl media is [TS]

00:23:07   just one megabyte because they uploaded on the part of the file and then you go [TS]

00:23:11   to download it in two hours later and it's a hundred magazine then you're [TS]

00:23:14   angry at me as I said only one mag there's like there's all these like we [TS]

00:23:18   are complex edge cases that I don't want to make a promise I can't keep them low [TS]

00:23:25   medium high percentages I'm trying to just be conceptualized this whole so do [TS]

00:23:29   their thing from user's perspective what they're concerned about is you know they [TS]

00:23:35   can get the idea from the settings thing of which apps are using most of my data [TS]

00:23:39   like Apple provide that but then if they find out okay overcast is a big consumer [TS]

00:23:43   things described a lot of podcasts and the settings that says it does a lot I [TS]

00:23:48   like podcast I don't want to uninstall overcast I want to continue to listen to [TS]

00:23:51   the band now I have to go into overcast so how can I make overcast use less they [TS]

00:23:56   had another the big giants which is no cell data at all they're going into over [TS]

00:24:00   gas but the mission in the mission is figure out what the thing is I have to [TS]

00:24:04   flip to make it uses less data and the state you know I'm just anything to [TS]

00:24:09   guide them in terms of which one of these options will have the most effect [TS]

00:24:12   rather than relying up you agree with descriptions and understanding which one [TS]

00:24:15   is bigger you know it can't get size in megabytes maybe you can give percentages [TS]

00:24:20   maybe give though medium-high I don't know I just that that's on traffic but [TS]

00:24:24   like rather than worry about the people who like super picking want to control [TS]

00:24:29   every aspect of it happened wanna like be able to write their own code to make [TS]

00:24:32   decisions on each decision point muscle just wanna know how to make the abused [TS]

00:24:38   less data and and no you know what the consequences are like it's you know the [TS]

00:24:44   option says here's some sort of raiding for if I were to turn off how much I [TS]

00:24:48   might I say if and I'll make that decision understand because I turned [TS]

00:24:51   that off now I won't get that [TS]

00:24:53   more for myself it is it is a hard problem that I'm just trying to simplify [TS]

00:24:56   it in two ways one changing the way you think about it but terms like was the [TS]

00:25:00   golden goal is to use less data like sizes or ratings or something like that [TS]

00:25:04   have to be in there and then to the other extreme is you know just introduce [TS]

00:25:10   the topic you give a big fleet of things that can go and then people just go down [TS]

00:25:13   the list and go on and like that sync over cellular thing I've never even seen [TS]

00:25:18   that option so I don't like I'm trying to get my usage anything ever been to [TS]

00:25:22   the overcast skies may be too busy to happen to pick the DePaul center right [TS]

00:25:26   maybe because I'm always on wifi but yeah people who write you in two to [TS]

00:25:32   complain about cell usage they may be noisy but I don't think most of your job [TS]

00:25:39   as a good defaulting to get the worry less about the intimidation that we're [TS]

00:25:42   setting screens I don't think maybe visited maybe all the other problem is [TS]

00:25:46   this is this is what I affectionately called a power user problem that if you [TS]

00:25:52   give people settings they will use them and then they will forget that they use [TS]

00:25:57   them and then the app will behave differently from the default because [TS]

00:26:01   they change settings in they forgot they change them and then they will write in [TS]

00:26:05   or complaint on Twitter or complaining public that my app is not working [TS]

00:26:07   properly because of his heading they change it happens all the time with the [TS]

00:26:12   playback setting where in the playback effects pain thing I have an option that [TS]

00:26:21   most people consider called continuous play and i title it when this episode [TS]

00:26:25   ends and the bottom two buttons play next [TS]

00:26:29   or stop and I thought this was very clear many people when they're poking [TS]

00:26:34   around in the options they will toggle that then they will forget to talk about [TS]

00:26:39   it and they were right in saying my abused to get automatic the next episode [TS]

00:26:43   and now it doesn't what happened to the bug and everything I had to explain its [TS]

00:26:48   this is kinda like a you know blowing the power cord kind of solution it's [TS]

00:26:53   like i don't want to embarrass them in my response to be very gentle like how I [TS]

00:26:57   say this but it's just a bad it's about very funny because if you give people [TS]

00:27:02   settings they will use them many of them will forget about it or use them badly [TS]

00:27:06   they don't understand and then the Apple break them regardless of what it does to [TS]

00:27:10   to me america station it makes the app sucks for them so that's also why are [TS]

00:27:15   they happy when when you gently lead them to the option like oh my problem is [TS]

00:27:20   solved I found a setting + little toggle switch and I feel like it turns around [TS]

00:27:26   on them at that point where it's like I thought that this app that I used to [TS]

00:27:30   like was room for me forever but really all you need to do is tap little toggle [TS]

00:27:34   switch yes but a lot of times as sheep are not writing in this is all these [TS]

00:27:39   video is indicative of like well if these five people on Twitter so this [TS]

00:27:43   happen to them and they didn't understand that's why it happened [TS]

00:27:47   think of how many people there are didn't get in touch with me who just [TS]

00:27:50   thought the appt was broken why do people like to understand why someone [TS]

00:27:54   would want would turn that off all their wandering through settings or why they [TS]

00:27:57   do on increasing age and I also never seen this I don't even know I guess the [TS]

00:28:01   defaults to go to the next track mind john you are you are responsible power [TS]

00:28:05   user you are the power user that developers wish all power users alike [TS]

00:28:09   but unfortunately that's not the case and there are so many people who like if [TS]

00:28:14   you give them away to customize or change something they will and they will [TS]

00:28:18   always demand more of those things and then they will become support problems [TS]

00:28:21   for you you know I don't go to settings I just launched the apt to figure out [TS]

00:28:25   it's because it's not a gear icon of the hell is this we've been through this [TS]

00:28:29   before no one ever go to settings and hidden that's that was one of those [TS]

00:28:33   things like I said when I get away with not here I gone and it can to give [TS]

00:28:38   senator from the settings that maybe maybe that's why maybe you know regular [TS]

00:28:42   people are so confused by everything because everything is horrible that you [TS]

00:28:48   know they'll push anything and I think about it power users look for a year and [TS]

00:28:52   they don't see you soon [TS]

00:28:54   that's perfect maybe they should make sense of it squirm out of the way when [TS]

00:28:59   you try to tap it was not a thing on Windows can't do proximity detection [TS]

00:29:05   wait for the iPad that has a stylus support than proximity detection from my [TS]

00:29:10   iPad users totally hey I'm one of them so I present before we leave this topic [TS]

00:29:17   may be mentioned this in and I blanked but why not just have one universal [TS]

00:29:23   can I do this can I do anything on cellular yessir now because I can't [TS]

00:29:28   enforce that basically because that's why it's like I said earlier like it [TS]

00:29:32   like a WebView four sho notesLoading image do you know there's there's stuff [TS]

00:29:36   that is very hard to enforce like well you could rephrase it you know can I can [TS]

00:29:41   i download any podcast related materials over so that's okay that's still a week [TS]

00:29:46   driving out like you can wordsmith it to get the wording right de just think that [TS]

00:29:51   that would that's not granular not for your average user [TS]

00:29:55   well I think you know people who want the apt to literally you zero in which [TS]

00:29:59   case they have to use the Iowa system to which they probably already have even [TS]

00:30:02   looking in the app is that most apps don't have this option will just do it [TS]

00:30:05   and you know it's up to you as the user to minimize the usage or to go into [TS]

00:30:09   settings and disable it so if somebody wants to literally use no data they will [TS]

00:30:15   use the system paying for that I think some data every app that syncs with the [TS]

00:30:22   web or do or you know get status or info from the web like you're on you're [TS]

00:30:27   losing you know a few hundred kilobytes here and there at all these apps and you [TS]

00:30:30   know you have to you not care about that level of usage if you're gonna have said [TS]

00:30:35   that enabled for anything so I some some data usage is fine but again I don't [TS]

00:30:40   want to make a promise that I can't really keep and especially with [TS]

00:30:45   something like this where like making a mistake here because people money since [TS]

00:30:49   the tough thing for sure but before we move on to start the show with mister [TS]

00:30:57   probably tell us about something that's cool I agree so this week we have back [TS]

00:31:02   long-term sponsor lynda.com ly nba.com lynda.com is an easy and affordable way [TS]

00:31:08   to help you learn with high quality easy to follow video tutorials you can [TS]

00:31:14   instantly stream thousands of course is created by experts on software [TS]

00:31:17   development [TS]

00:31:18   graphic design and more go to lynda.com / ATP that ly nba.com / ATP to see for [TS]

00:31:26   yourself [TS]

00:31:27   com has fresh new courses added all the time they work directly with the [TS]

00:31:32   industry experts and software companies to provide timely training often the [TS]

00:31:36   same day new version releases hit the market so you can always be up to speed [TS]

00:31:39   your developer they have programming languages they have different skills [TS]

00:31:44   media production they have so much stuff and they have all these courses are [TS]

00:31:48   offered at all experience levels whether you're a beginner or advanced courses [TS]

00:31:52   are offered at the highest quality this is not like you know the homemade [TS]

00:31:56   YouTube videos can be very inconsistent their quality level and can be pretty [TS]

00:31:59   hard to find good stuff every lynda.com course is very high quality and just [TS]

00:32:04   high production value everything courses are also broken up into bite-size pieces [TS]

00:32:08   you can learn at your own pace and learn from start to finish or just find a [TS]

00:32:11   quick answer you have all these choices you can [TS]

00:32:13   transcripts on the side you can scan to the transcript you can you can search [TS]

00:32:17   you can jump right to the point they're talking about when you find something [TS]

00:32:20   it's really an incredibly advanced platform with very well produced videos [TS]

00:32:23   so you can even learn while you're on the go with lynda.com apps for iPhone [TS]

00:32:28   iPad and Android and you can you know that to me is that you can watch [TS]

00:32:33   whatever you want with no pressure because you don't pay per video you pay [TS]

00:32:37   one low monthly price just $25 this gives you unlimited access to over a [TS]

00:32:42   hundred thousand video tutorials I learn things like for example adding this [TS]

00:32:47   podcast I i my podcast editing skills improved dramatically when I watch [TS]

00:32:52   videos on logic level compression and EQ invoice really great courses here on the [TS]

00:32:57   dot com so they also offer an annual premium plan [TS]

00:33:00   download courses for offline viewing or download sample projects and private [TS]

00:33:04   life instructor really great stuff here again they have programming they have [TS]

00:33:09   management skills creative apps like Adobe Creative Suite logic final cut [TS]

00:33:14   negotiation skills all sorts of great courses that almost everybody can find [TS]

00:33:18   something here that they would like so anyway [TS]

00:33:21   lynda.com is offering a 10 day free trial practice all courses for free to [TS]

00:33:26   visit lynda.com / ATP once again as a 10 day free trial with access to [TS]

00:33:32   all courses ly and da dot com slash ATP thanks let's lynda.com response on our [TS]

00:33:38   show once again highly recommend the right so now that we're what thirty [TS]

00:33:43   forty minutes in let's hear what you've done here in this free fall out there [TS]

00:33:49   just broken the show a complicated format really straightforward all those [TS]

00:33:55   all those years of follow-up and just like that just like that I'm sorry some [TS]

00:34:00   men just like to see the world burn [TS]

00:34:02   that's a reference to think that's actually watch the world burn [TS]

00:34:07   that's ok like Nero or just learned about the cowbell SNL skit today so [TS]

00:34:15   coming down so when this happens when I wanted to myself here [TS]

00:34:20   tip said she makes made like the cabin fever joke and I knew there was a joke [TS]

00:34:25   about more capital and I wasn't quite sure it was from so I said oh is that [TS]

00:34:28   from spinal tap and turns out no but I at least knew that the joke was about [TS]

00:34:34   having more cowbell in that Blue Oyster Cult song that is it's it's something [TS]

00:34:42   you heard about but didn't know like the original that's correct that's what [TS]

00:34:46   we're getting out that it's not it's not whether you get references that you [TS]

00:34:49   haven't actually experienced the original piece of media from pop culture [TS]

00:34:54   i just i cant believe you didn't recognize that quote from Dark Knight [TS]

00:34:59   now I know John feels with me i've seen that God anyway so we should probably [TS]

00:35:08   correct or incorrect statements about half life like the third week in a row [TS]

00:35:12   life just keeps coming into the real one is out for the Mac has been for a long [TS]

00:35:18   time not just the source port but the plain old acrylic and original half-life [TS]

00:35:22   so how's life is completely and fully available for the Mac I can play this [TS]

00:35:26   game can when I was like 16 and were talking about it still kinda like Halo [TS]

00:35:29   also completely available for the Mac too little too late [TS]

00:35:34   the original Halo is on that's that's where I played the Atlanta I played on [TS]

00:35:38   the [TS]

00:35:38   what I genuinely didn't know that I thought I assumed it was always Xbox [TS]

00:35:42   phone email you cause I knew there was like a history like bungee was making it [TS]

00:35:48   a magnet Microsoft bought them and they can I guess you guys are in an apple [TS]

00:35:52   circles when they were they be hella trailer shown to Macworld whatever that [TS]

00:35:57   was now I can somehow do but anyway on stage look at this amazing new game [TS]

00:36:05   coming from a guy I don't talk about it hurts too much to talk about [TS]

00:36:09   yeah alright so thank you christiane for that correction this is from Hunter [TS]

00:36:19   mentioned last week about time and resources where your app doesn't come [TS]

00:36:23   with a bunch of stuff i can download them on demand and you could say respect [TS]

00:36:26   that I when you build your application which resources won't be bundled with [TS]

00:36:30   the application but can be downloaded by the application at any point that I [TS]

00:36:34   mentioned that didn't seem like there was enough of you I hope to give a good [TS]

00:36:38   user experience the hunter says that the fundamental resource API does support [TS]

00:36:42   and as progress tracking progress and display it to the user so that's nice [TS]

00:36:46   although you think you have bad games that have like 500 mega levels that [TS]

00:36:52   download levels over cellular yes know what the right answer there probably [TS]

00:36:56   know but then they're playing a game and a car ride and get to the next level the [TS]

00:37:01   only thing you really do is say sorry you can't put the next level because you [TS]

00:37:05   have downloaded blah blah blah blah blah goes in changes in terms of use all his [TS]

00:37:10   parents or just wait for the next half an hour in the car for 500 make the [TS]

00:37:15   level download way travel anyway or any game that uses they get so many one-star [TS]

00:37:19   reviews from people having this problem that it stopped using it now but I think [TS]

00:37:24   it's still a good option is it a bit breaking up into smaller chunks you know [TS]

00:37:28   like instead of hopefully no levels 500 megs but games like three gigs and they [TS]

00:37:35   have [TS]

00:37:35   a small number of levels each one's got to be pretty big anyway helping [TS]

00:37:39   developers figured this out I kinda like the the ps4 thing where if you download [TS]

00:37:44   a game you can start playing it before the game is entirely down wanting to [TS]

00:37:47   just download the early parts of the game [TS]

00:37:49   sooner it takes a long time to download but it's nice that you don't wait for [TS]

00:37:52   the whole thing to download because you're not going to run it by playing at [TS]

00:37:56   some of these games take a certain minimum amount of time to get there [TS]

00:37:59   especially when you're playing for the first time they just let you start [TS]

00:38:01   playing as soon as you've got like the first 10 hours worth levels or something [TS]

00:38:05   about time you grind two dozen if you're an expert in the game the rest will be [TS]

00:38:08   downloaded or so they hope it is working out well saying someone's gonna [TS]

00:38:15   implement that I do think it's interesting also that like there seems [TS]

00:38:18   on the iOS App Store there seems to be no correlation between games size and [TS]

00:38:25   commercial success [TS]

00:38:28   ok think about it [TS]

00:38:31   menu often [TS]

00:38:34   everyone else crazier I am you expect there to be like you expected begins to [TS]

00:38:40   more successful yeah I'm kinda saying like maybe it's not worth making game so [TS]

00:38:45   big it really depends on the type of game I guess you're making a puzzle game [TS]

00:38:49   how big it possibly be right i mean how they talk about having no assets how big [TS]

00:38:53   is letterpress another demographics and entire game they're just like the launch [TS]

00:38:57   icon right but other types of games like if you're making a 3d game there's going [TS]

00:39:01   to be geometry is gonna be textures and like there's no getting around that and [TS]

00:39:05   it's gonna be much bigger than a game of the static screen and I don't know I [TS]

00:39:11   don't think people have the same expectations of mobile games but I think [TS]

00:39:14   genre plays into big things are in and art style if you do things with texture [TS]

00:39:19   mapping Texas take up room if you do everything with flat shading you just [TS]

00:39:23   have geometry then you know I think it's reasonable a small platform like this [TS]

00:39:28   desert golf not be enough for anybody he thought that game so much it's really [TS]

00:39:34   good I haven't played that since Alto came out I realized so I still haven't [TS]

00:39:37   installed but I'm I'm stuck it whenever yeah me too I'm not stuck stuck and I [TS]

00:39:42   played I will continue but it like it's not about making progress but I don't [TS]

00:39:45   uninstall because I'm afraid that if I deleted I lose my progress I don't know [TS]

00:39:48   if that's actually true but I'm afraid it is yeah I've never played it pretty [TS]

00:39:52   happy about that [TS]

00:39:53   get out this adventure it's better game I haven't had a few weeks old ever [TS]

00:39:56   played it disagree you think those adventures better than desert golfing I [TS]

00:40:03   think everyone else thinks it is but I don't think it is [TS]

00:40:08   this is why do you as a gamer in a nut shell game that game in a desert with [TS]

00:40:16   the ball at all I can handle they're both good gains [TS]

00:40:19   excellent games but I got a lot more time golfing just because of like the [TS]

00:40:26   kind of like then commentary qualities I got out of it [TS]

00:40:31   where Alto is a great game but once I played lake to one plane flight and then [TS]

00:40:38   I was like alright well every time I play this game it's basically the same [TS]

00:40:42   thing over and over again and I know doesn't coughing is similar but I didn't [TS]

00:40:48   get any depth about it was cool for like the one day I was playing it a lot but I [TS]

00:40:53   try playing it here and there afterwards and I just like I just felt too [TS]

00:40:56   repetitive to me you don't have any competitive juices flowing without was [TS]

00:41:00   all about later meeting with yourself trying to best your previous best run or [TS]

00:41:03   competing with other people whereas there's no company competitive aspect [TS]

00:41:06   and that's what makes demagoguing so great is that it really shows you how [TS]

00:41:12   pointless everything else in the universe's this is a man whose wife [TS]

00:41:16   plays all console games in hard mode by the way yesterday could not be more [TS]

00:41:20   correct she is the gamer I am totally not she's not she's playing prison [TS]

00:41:25   architect now thank the CGP grey that sounds awful and it looks like the [TS]

00:41:32   hospital you know like it's it's one of those kinda games like you know it's [TS]

00:41:35   basically same prison if I was like more of a game right now I would probably [TS]

00:41:40   play it too is it looks pretty cool I just don't i cant you know I'm doing [TS]

00:41:45   great with work stuff with with overcast with the show and everything else and [TS]

00:41:49   unlike the last thing I wanna do is take time playing games I don't whenever the [TS]

00:41:54   opportunity comes up to spend time doing something I'd rather work than play [TS]

00:41:58   games and can you tell everybody exactly what level you're under golfing so they [TS]

00:42:02   can be mad at some context your statement says it's been awhile they [TS]

00:42:09   played it so I gotta take the matter doesn't want to spend too much time [TS]

00:42:12   playing games available [TS]

00:42:16   have been stuck on this one for a long time that's 3054 holes people yeah I [TS]

00:42:20   think we've solved that I haven't seen Prison architect but in so clearly I'm [TS]

00:42:27   unqualified to talk about it with that said let me talk about it it sounds like [TS]

00:42:31   so much more can I stop doing work like that it seemed tower like some towers [TS]

00:42:35   when I pretty much stopped doing work for games I remember vividly trying [TS]

00:42:40   World of Warcraft Warcraft when it was relatively new and all I did was run [TS]

00:42:45   around killing like bars or something like that [TS]

00:42:48   in I lasted two hours before I decided I'm just doing work this isn'ta game [TS]

00:42:52   this is just me doing work for the architect is more like Transport Tycoon [TS]

00:42:56   then wow yeah it is more like the building's games but even even [TS]

00:43:04   I love Transport Tycoon I haven't played it in probably five years [TS]

00:43:08   oh yeah I haven't played it more than that because like an open TTD is awesome [TS]

00:43:13   like it's it was such a fantastic read implementation of the game engine an [TS]

00:43:17   added so much stuff and it's fantastic time to it like you know 2007 2008 kind [TS]

00:43:23   of error but again I just I had like there's never a time when I want to [TS]

00:43:28   spend hours and hours and hours playing games instead of producing some [TS]

00:43:33   something that I that I want to working on it that's just me just like it's hot [TS]

00:43:36   it's what motivates me right now and maybe that will change over time I'm [TS]

00:43:40   sure it'll be different once my kids old enough to to enjoy games I want to do [TS]

00:43:43   with him but for now I just don't care about gains over 3,000 holes people over [TS]

00:43:50   he doesn't want to spend a lot of time playing games and much rather be doing [TS]

00:43:55   something else that was that was almost a meditation for me because you're lucky [TS]

00:44:00   that game does not have a count of hours played incited no it doesn't mean I know [TS]

00:44:05   it took like eight thousand strokes [TS]

00:44:07   i mean that that can figure somebody like you know I love each one takes a [TS]

00:44:11   few seconds or whatever but you know so obviously I know a lot of time there but [TS]

00:44:15   how much to spend on Twitter it's way more than that then we have a show that [TS]

00:44:20   is the whole count winner we don't even know background color change known up [TS]

00:44:24   then no rocks my cactus in sight [TS]

00:44:28   I don't even know what kind of things just seen today at three or three [TS]

00:44:31   thousand [TS]

00:44:32   this show has been I had no idea when we started before follow-up Dr doing things [TS]

00:44:38   before follow-up that that would really take this entire show right off the bat [TS]

00:44:42   an idea [TS]

00:44:46   our second sponsor this week is hover hover is the best way to buy and manage [TS]

00:44:53   domain names go to hover dot com and use promo code passing lane for 10% off [TS]

00:44:59   first purchase I'm so sorry when you have a great idea you want a great [TS]

00:45:04   domain name that's catchy and memorable however gives you exactly what you need [TS]

00:45:08   to find the perfect roommate for your IDs you can get started actually working [TS]

00:45:11   on it gives you easy to use powerful tools to buy a manager means anyone can [TS]

00:45:16   do it [TS]

00:45:16   advanced beginner and they're actually they're known for their incredible [TS]

00:45:19   support not only do they have no email option stuff but they also have no way [TS]

00:45:24   no hold no transfer phone service so you can call them up and a real live human [TS]

00:45:29   being will pick up the phone [TS]

00:45:30   not not after being holed time they won't transfer to a million different [TS]

00:45:33   departments its trigger who can help you know you call any human being picked up [TS]

00:45:38   the phone and they can help you if you register domain name anywhere else you [TS]

00:45:42   know that this can be a tricky business you know at best [TS]

00:45:46   you get a place that means well but their site is really clunky and hard to [TS]

00:45:50   use an ugly and the control panels really clunky at worst it can feel like [TS]

00:45:55   you're being scammed by law to register as they can be pretty bad at the Aiken [TS]

00:45:59   feeling being tricked into buying up cells and cross promotions and stuff [TS]

00:46:03   that just doesn't make you feel good about them however is above all that [TS]

00:46:06   however is they respect you get respect you as a user their respect your time [TS]

00:46:10   and the heavily good design and really easy usability so that they don't try to [TS]

00:46:15   upsell you with crazy stuff or try to trick you into buying extra as they [TS]

00:46:21   include anything that should be included for free day include things like who is [TS]

00:46:24   privacy DNS that they have all sorts of stuff they just include right there for [TS]

00:46:28   free [TS]

00:46:29   the control panel is the best domain controller neither used and i've i've [TS]

00:46:33   used now and throughout my past life when I had a real job and [TS]

00:46:37   through all my personal stuff I've used probably ten different registrars [TS]

00:46:40   control panels at least over the years and hers is by far the best the nicest [TS]

00:46:45   easiest to use some even close if you like me have had two mains and other [TS]

00:46:49   places and you want to transfer them into however they will even if you want [TS]

00:46:54   to they will they will take your old registrars login info and do transfer [TS]

00:46:58   for you because Valley transfer service that I don't know anyone else who offers [TS]

00:47:02   this and that way they'll move over everything without making them a stately [TS]

00:47:05   DNS entries stuff like that kind of tricky to get right and has pretty big [TS]

00:47:09   ramifications if you mess anything up they will do it all for you want them to [TS]

00:47:13   do so you don't have to worry about the stress of moving again even just [TS]

00:47:16   annoyances like dealing with the transfer codes in the unlocks and all [TS]

00:47:19   that crap they will deal deal with all for you if you if you let them so it's [TS]

00:47:24   great they also have email features just 20 bucks a year if you want to fully [TS]

00:47:27   functional gmail account until me with 10 gigs of storage 29 bucks here get you [TS]

00:47:32   a terabyte of storage and then they if you want just email forwarding email [TS]

00:47:37   hosting you guys want a domain that can receive email at that domain just five [TS]

00:47:41   bucks a year so you can keep using the host you already have you want that so [TS]

00:47:44   great options here go to hover dot com HOV yahoo.com for people who understand [TS]

00:47:49   the word I'm saying go to hover dot com and use promo code passing lane this [TS]

00:47:54   week that's passing lane one word for 10% off your first purchase thanks to [TS]

00:47:58   hover for spots on our show little bit more follow-up john tells about such an [TS]

00:48:02   umbrella now I'm saving for next week [TS]

00:48:05   done with follow-up really shows out of control it was an hour in a really only [TS]

00:48:12   an hour and we're done with follow-up boy wonder what made that takes on a [TS]

00:48:16   must be too much follow-up [TS]

00:48:18   god I'm staying out of this so are we talking about the end of tech doctors at [TS]

00:48:23   all so if not for right now I think of the prefix on I'll fix it so the three [TS]

00:48:28   of us in the Senate next week end of tick tock which kinda makes it sound [TS]

00:48:32   like Tik Tok is ending next week I could be this is the end of the computer age [TS]

00:48:39   it was welcomed to the end [TS]

00:48:42   we we might as well to stop the show now because we're all out of control [TS]

00:48:47   to do w computer [TS]

00:48:50   John try to bring us back if you please and tell us about tick tock of white [TS]

00:49:01   sandy I know the one hundred and put in the Genesis partners forget it [TS]

00:49:06   intel has its strategy that they called Tik Tok where they they make a new [TS]

00:49:11   microarchitecture and then the next round of chips they offer for sale is [TS]

00:49:17   screwed up already [TS]

00:49:20   2007 intel has been operating on a staggered release schedule that [TS]

00:49:25   alternates manufacturing process shrinks sticks with major micro architectural [TS]

00:49:29   changes talks [TS]

00:49:31   me know which is which sometimes they just do a shrink that would be at stake [TS]

00:49:35   and sometimes they they they changed the microarchitecture thats attack all right [TS]

00:49:40   there you have it [TS]

00:49:41   how long the voice of reason between the three of us what is going on I can they [TS]

00:49:45   picked a bad name is the point of the alternate and some of this has been sort [TS]

00:49:50   of regular schedule what it meant that every other round of chips you would get [TS]

00:49:55   a new process you have 32 nanometer chips and those that of the region enemy [TS]

00:50:00   ships and I had to go to the next size smaller but 2828 to this kind of 22 [TS]

00:50:04   anyway we've had 40 nanometer chips for two generations now and so in theory the [TS]

00:50:12   next round of chips should be there next process eyes which is supposed to be 10 [TS]

00:50:15   but intel's basically said the next round ships will not be 10 then and [TS]

00:50:20   there will be a third round of 40 nanometer chips basically a bigger than [TS]

00:50:24   10 men manufacturing processes not ready so bland also it's worth pointing out [TS]

00:50:29   that the fourteen in me to process it is just barely coming online now [TS]

00:50:34   like it it was also look at that whatever wednesday was the probable a [TS]

00:50:37   much of that or any although much of that was the process the process of [TS]

00:50:44   being so delayed and so they had a huge delay just trying to get this and it was [TS]

00:50:48   a bit about a yearly or year and a half lead right yeah it so this is like [TS]

00:50:52   getting out ahead of the next on by saying [TS]

00:50:54   not gonna do it we did it go kind of on schedule but things are kind of late in [TS]

00:50:59   the cum out of whatever it's like look just 10 nanometers is not going to be [TS]

00:51:02   ready but we're also not going to you know delay having a new line of chips [TS]

00:51:07   but we are going to make one more rounded tips on 40 nanometers and they [TS]

00:51:12   had to come up with a new name for them greatly during the names these things [TS]

00:51:15   it's gonna be sky lake and then it was followed by Canon lake so in between [TS]

00:51:19   them the third line 40 nanometers things is going to be kab while a candy wanna [TS]

00:51:26   take a swing at that he be advanced over baby cabey I'm sure it's probably Kb [TS]

00:51:34   anyway that's what they're going to call the third round of 40 nanometer chips [TS]

00:51:37   which is pretty weird as we discussed on previous shows Moore's law can continue [TS]

00:51:43   forever because there as far as modern science knows there is the minimum size [TS]

00:51:47   that things can be we're always trying to smash them up into smaller and [TS]

00:51:51   smaller pieces find out what can be smaller but the rules but exchange in [TS]

00:51:55   crazy ways when you get really small so we were not going to double the number [TS]

00:51:59   of things we can fit in a unit of space every 18 months [TS]

00:52:04   forever and ever this is not mean the end of more than just a slow down I [TS]

00:52:11   think I'm fine with that I like the fact that Intel's owning up to this rather [TS]

00:52:16   than just saying might be a little bit late cause then it just you know they're [TS]

00:52:20   digging into shifting a whole year over and i'm glad that they're going to do [TS]

00:52:23   another round of 40 nanometer chips rather than just delaying forever and [TS]

00:52:28   ever until 10 nanometers ready so well but I mean they basically did that with [TS]

00:52:32   has well known as bad weather yet well I'm using one right now if if you bought [TS]

00:52:38   a Mac in the last couple of years you've gotten has well unless you bought one of [TS]

00:52:43   the 2015 provisions of only the retina MacBook 13 the MacBook Air or the [TS]

00:52:51   network won the 15 still using as well [TS]

00:52:55   the iMac still has well these the Mac Pro is using the pentium pro I mean it's [TS]

00:53:01   like [TS]

00:53:02   everything is is delayed an old because this one was so so delayed like 240 [TS]

00:53:10   mister delayed and so what Intel did in the last in the last year and a half [TS]

00:53:13   while Broadwell is being delayed they released a kind of like 1.5 version of [TS]

00:53:18   has well you know it's the same core but they just like give us like higher being [TS]

00:53:23   higher clock parts just a kind of Titus over and over their partners like Apple [TS]

00:53:28   they're trying to sell computers around these things and trying to make bad [TS]

00:53:30   decisions on these things that's why I'm using a forged her computer right now [TS]

00:53:34   because I have heard that it probably I'm sure Apple's margins on the forehead [TS]

00:53:39   gigahertz chips are not that great is the various bidding annual issues that [TS]

00:53:44   are typical business but they had to give us some kind of minor increase like [TS]

00:53:48   our ticket we think we have reached the clocks as much as we can without sharing [TS]

00:53:52   the process and we'll do something given give people something new to tide them [TS]

00:53:58   over while we work out our next revisions delays so they already did a [TS]

00:54:03   third division kind of with as well so what they're basically saying here is [TS]

00:54:08   that this is going to happen again this time workers warning you in advance and [TS]

00:54:13   giving it a new name and I don't think much is known about the new line of [TS]

00:54:16   chips like will it just be like you said just you know that higher bend versions [TS]

00:54:20   of those things that maybe a couple of little errors sticks in them or [TS]

00:54:23   something or will it be you know with a bunt the GPU is actually be a [TS]

00:54:28   significant new line of chips [TS]

00:54:31   seems like that by giving it a new name and new Lake name that it's not just [TS]

00:54:36   going to be like I 1.5 but it's certainly not going to be a new [TS]

00:54:39   architecture a talk radio architecture I guess they're saving that for its [TS]

00:54:47   confusing [TS]

00:54:48   like the relationship between Intel roadmap and when Apple releases in some [TS]

00:54:52   ways it seems like it's tied tightly together like oh that became really some [TS]

00:54:56   scenes because the Intel doesn't have the chips ready but in other respects [TS]

00:55:00   they're totally unrelated see the Mac Pro well no that's not entirely true the [TS]

00:55:04   Mac Pro is very belated but it's really too busy on road map I know but they are [TS]

00:55:09   behind an entire year on the on ships they are but the last revision of the [TS]

00:55:13   ions was a little bit questionable [TS]

00:55:14   the problem is that I saw but looking at like you know what you would do with [TS]

00:55:18   chips on the Xeon Intel sells most of these things in service and the server [TS]

00:55:24   business is very different from the desktop workstation business at the Mac [TS]

00:55:27   Pro sets in and on servers what you really know what you generally what the [TS]

00:55:31   market demands is more and more cores even if each coarseness fast and so [TS]

00:55:37   that's why you have most of the online up the ones at least the high ones that [TS]

00:55:41   sell nicely and have a nice profit margins and have all the PCI Express [TS]

00:55:45   Lanes everything most of those optimized for core count and have a clock speed of [TS]

00:55:50   like two girls you know that's it you're getting like relatively low clock speeds [TS]

00:55:54   have very high score counts the Mac Pro its users of a very small number of [TS]

00:56:00   these chips it offers 344 them and they're they're like the highest clock [TS]

00:56:05   version they can get addicts core count basically without blowing thermals seems [TS]

00:56:09   when they moved from the previous ones [TS]

00:56:12   pictures anybody P I think into has really happy when he came out sorry for [TS]

00:56:18   the generation that they've skipped they really was not much of a game to be had [TS]

00:56:23   in the areas that the Mac Pro actually sells chips from like in those parts it [TS]

00:56:28   really was it was like they the the core counts went up slightly like you got a [TS]

00:56:32   ten core and like a 14 or so they were they were like a small core count of [TS]

00:56:36   great but like all the clock speeds went down or hit the same and power was a [TS]

00:56:39   little bit weird so it was it was not a great update and so that might have been [TS]

00:56:44   why Apple seemingly hasn't and seemingly won't use those I don't know but it also [TS]

00:56:52   you know the Mac Pro also has kept generations before this won't be the [TS]

00:56:55   first time and so it might also just be partly that that that it wasn't a major [TS]

00:57:01   upgrade from Intel and partly Apple doesn't care that strongly about [TS]

00:57:05   upgrading these on the basis of my good old days when a new jet came out [TS]

00:57:11   everybody voted in their machines because you had to be there was [TS]

00:57:13   competitive pressure to and for the most part that was a pretty good thing even [TS]

00:57:19   if these are not a big upgrade over the old ones especially on things like the [TS]

00:57:23   Mac Pro Mark Morris who cares but like thats [TS]

00:57:26   that what people are buying this for like that the Super parallel test where [TS]

00:57:28   extra Corazon be significant difference of all the machines that are actually [TS]

00:57:33   gonna care that you have you know 12 vs 10 chorus the Mac Pro is the one the [TS]

00:57:39   tips are saying they didn't have any good GPU option so that would bump the [TS]

00:57:42   CPU at the GPO but anyway [TS]

00:57:45   historically is not like the play the game and they're like well let me have [TS]

00:57:48   an impressive new machine or not just gonna give you new CPUs except I guess [TS]

00:57:52   and the laptops where they'll do that as well 1.5 I don't know oh yeah I mean [TS]

00:57:57   they they i don't i don't know if they've ever skipped bail at a major [TS]

00:58:02   laptop CPU generation until now where they at where they appear to be skipping [TS]

00:58:05   quad-core broad wells and going to slightly but I did and this is a weird [TS]

00:58:11   situation with timing of those things I don't think it ever skip one before that [TS]

00:58:14   so what does this mean if hypothetically you have two copies I think it's a late [TS]

00:58:20   2011 high res antiglare 15 inch MacBook Pro and there is not a singular there's [TS]

00:58:26   not one retina Mac in your entire household into thinking you're gonna [TS]

00:58:30   hold on for the next major MacBook Pro provision or shouldn't say major but you [TS]

00:58:34   know the next big chips at last I heard that was theoretically coming this fall [TS]

00:58:40   does any of this change that [TS]

00:58:42   know is that what they're saying is that the generation of chips that were moving [TS]

00:58:46   into the 40 nanometer like this is this is what started with Broadwell this past [TS]

00:58:51   spring with the MacBook one and in the air and then later on the 13 that [TS]

00:58:55   generation is the 14 nanometer one and that's like we're just in the infancy of [TS]

00:58:59   that there are going to be a fourteen for a while just fine parently you know [TS]

00:59:06   a big deal gets nice power savings like I don't think it's the end of the world [TS]

00:59:10   and it's not you know if you're waiting for a new line of [TS]

00:59:14   max the Bible as colic max come out they ought to be pretty nice machines so [TS]

00:59:18   that's not a big deal is just the next year and the year after I don't know [TS]

00:59:25   what the the strategy is for me it's just going to be three years of 40 [TS]

00:59:30   nanometer chips well I mean we've had what two and a half years of as well and [TS]

00:59:37   you know it it hasn't been great but we've been we've been kind of stalled [TS]

00:59:40   performance for a long time but they're still good chips I mean like this I'm at [TS]

00:59:46   this this for gigahertz for core iMac dad is amazing [TS]

00:59:50   like it is by far the best computer I've ever owned and by far and it's one of [TS]

00:59:56   the fastest I I did briefly have these six core so under Mac Pro and that was [TS]

01:00:02   that was faster in parallel tasks but this actually beaten single threaded [TS]

01:00:06   another problem is the online has that the consumer desktop chips because there [TS]

01:00:11   are newer in their in their core revision usually be the Mac Pro Z Hons [TS]

01:00:17   in single-threaded tasks which is embarrassing for the Metro anyway I [TS]

01:00:21   don't think this is going to be that bad of a thing I think it's going to be [TS]

01:00:24   really just a continuation of what we've seen for the last few years just now [TS]

01:00:29   again now they're just making it official now they're admitting up front [TS]

01:00:32   and warning us up front [TS]

01:00:33   ok this is what's going to happen again and we know we'll see what we can do [TS]

01:00:37   about it on a final note I should point out lest my father the XIB Mr give me [TS]

01:00:42   hell about it that IBM is actually at seven nanometers is that right but [TS]

01:00:46   really it was demoing it's like a tech demo cost is no object for shipping [TS]

01:00:53   millions of those things every every quarter I agree I agree but I just [TS]

01:00:57   wanted to point it out because obviously other people are making progress in this [TS]

01:01:01   arena but but just like you both said I mean that's not producing millions of [TS]

01:01:05   them that's making one in a lab at great expense with a very exotic materials is [TS]

01:01:09   that what you're using expensive stuff in summary it's going to be expenses [TS]

01:01:18   well now it's the same like I remember back in the days they had similar type [TS]

01:01:23   of things companies that would say we can make a chip-in amazing speed is like [TS]

01:01:26   one gigahertz are two years back down but like you know we were at 309 yards [TS]

01:01:30   wow how can you make something that we use these exotic materials and just you [TS]

01:01:34   could do lots of things for enough money he can't if it's going to cost $10,000 [TS]

01:01:39   projector whatever they do make a difference [TS]

01:01:41   not viable you have to make it into something that could be manufactured [TS]

01:01:45   cheaply and then then you've got them that's that's the whole thing like [TS]

01:01:48   they're going to do a shrink and some of the cost of all the chips are good at [TS]

01:01:51   triple the first computer magazine issue I ever bought from a newsstand had a [TS]

01:01:57   cover those advertising a hundred megahertz is this is a big deal in 1993 [TS]

01:02:03   or something and it was it was a DEC Alpha chip that had been announced the [TS]

01:02:08   words as their disappointed to learn that I vividly remember having a really [TS]

01:02:15   intense argument with my not all relative of mine who was in college at [TS]

01:02:22   the time and I was in like middle school or something like that and he had if [TS]

01:02:27   memory serves he had I wanna say it was like a gigabyte of storage across [TS]

01:02:33   probably like six hard drives as it was that long ago and I remember arguing [TS]

01:02:37   with him there is no possible way [TS]

01:02:40   a human being could use a gigabyte of storage it's just not possible and what [TS]

01:02:44   could you possibly put over a gigabyte of storage is better than you were [TS]

01:02:48   certainly no pages Word documents it wasn't it wasn't like anything big it [TS]

01:02:52   was like now like his podcast that downloading as well but yeah it's [TS]

01:03:01   worthwhile how things change in any case what it still is but one last thing [TS]

01:03:04   that's awesome and then we have one more thing to talk about I found a bunch of [TS]

01:03:07   this week is mail route one skin mail route a mail route dotnet / ATP you've [TS]

01:03:13   heard from me over the years that I don't use Gmail I use regular I'm a [TS]

01:03:17   posts because I don't like proprietary you know systems and I don't like [TS]

01:03:21   webmail and I just want something that will work with the with regular mail [TS]

01:03:25   apps that I can get them anywhere on any platform meant to be tied to [TS]

01:03:29   to you know somebody's web interface I don't like it or somebody terrible I'm [TS]

01:03:33   at Gateway gmail so anyway and one of the problems when you when you try to [TS]

01:03:39   host male somewhere other than gmail somewhere else or try to host it [TS]

01:03:42   yourself if you're on your own server or if you have a business yet you have to [TS]

01:03:45   administer their email server one of the big problems with doing this is spam [TS]

01:03:50   filtering spam filtering is so complex these days it's so advanced that really [TS]

01:03:55   doing it right [TS]

01:03:56   requires a dedicated service that specializes in that and cloud servers [TS]

01:04:01   that can combine wisdom from all sorts of things and not just be like one [TS]

01:04:04   installation like a simple busy until there is not enough these days so mail [TS]

01:04:09   route is a professional spam and virus filtering service so what you do is you [TS]

01:04:15   point your domain MX record at them so they become your official email host to [TS]

01:04:20   the world then you give them the address of your real MX record your real server [TS]

01:04:25   and so they act as a proxy as a middleman between the internet and you [TS]

01:04:28   end a shield you from all the crap people try to send you that's spam [TS]

01:04:31   viruses I admit when I first heard about it I was skeptical I thought you know [TS]

01:04:35   how well could it really were compared to the customizable spam filtering and [TS]

01:04:40   stuff the fastball had that I was beautiful you for that and it works so [TS]

01:04:44   well that I when I was using other things I would still gets bad I get you [TS]

01:04:50   know maybe three to five spam messages a day and I thought that was about as good [TS]

01:04:54   as it can get really and then switch to my retina maybe six months ago something [TS]

01:04:58   like that it is so good that I had received one span message one day last [TS]

01:05:03   week and that was noteworthy because I just haven't seen one in weeks or months [TS]

01:05:09   like Mel ready so good you literally go from whatever management getting you go [TS]

01:05:14   20 most of the time like it it becomes a very rare occurrence to C span Africa [TS]

01:05:20   delivered to your Inbox [TS]

01:05:21   it is that good and it isn't so aggressive that they're constantly [TS]

01:05:25   throwing away legitimate mail either anything that's kind of on the border [TS]

01:05:29   we're not quite sure if it's Pam they put in the quarantine section for like a [TS]

01:05:33   week or two or something and then they email you a summary of just like the [TS]

01:05:37   just the subject lines of those things and you can you can just give a quick [TS]

01:05:40   little glanced down that list every day every week [TS]

01:05:43   and you can see are you know that one that was legitimate let that through all [TS]

01:05:47   the recipes forget about it so it's very very easy to make sure you don't have [TS]

01:05:51   false positives for too long and to train it not to do that anymore for [TS]

01:05:55   whatever whatever the case may be things that you get emails for but the spam [TS]

01:05:59   filtering is just shockingly good it is so could I I don't think I will ever go [TS]

01:06:05   without it now it is I i can very very highly recommended [TS]

01:06:09   over the years I recommended people go to Annapolis I recommend his fastball [TS]

01:06:12   obviously I will say now I very very highly recommend putting mail route in [TS]

01:06:18   front of your I'm a post it is really good and from what I hear from Gmail [TS]

01:06:21   people it sounds like it's actually better than Gmail spam filtering and a [TS]

01:06:26   lot of people think it can't get better but if you if you're ever seeing spam [TS]

01:06:30   it can get better that's basically it so it really is amazing I very highly [TS]

01:06:35   recommend mail route if you have your own domain name or email or if you have [TS]

01:06:40   your own opposed to put your mail trust me it is that good they're not paying me [TS]

01:06:44   to say that they're paying me to say the subscript mostly ignoring them telling [TS]

01:06:47   me better which is I use it and I love it and I can tell you first hand it [TS]

01:06:51   works for me nobody can buy me saying that I'm tell you that because it's true [TS]

01:06:55   anyway that's their script go to mail route dotnet / ATP for a free trial and [TS]

01:07:01   if you use that link / ATP you will also get 10% off for the lifetime of your [TS]

01:07:07   account [TS]

01:07:08   not 10% off your first purchase not 10% off one's 10% off for the last time of [TS]

01:07:12   your account that is awesome thanks let them out now route now / ATP so lately [TS]

01:07:18   there's been a humongous kerfuffle with read it I have to admit I don't really [TS]

01:07:24   ever use reddit I think I may have mentioned in a show on the show in the [TS]

01:07:29   past I don't know if I never made it to the final version but the only time I [TS]

01:07:33   ever really is read it was when I needed to acquire things after one of my [TS]

01:07:40   favorite websites got shut down and I used read it here in there for that but [TS]

01:07:45   I don't use it for discussions are really anything else [TS]

01:07:48   and I guess there was a real big there's a lot of OJ with regard to their now act [TS]

01:07:56   CEO Alan powers that right and i cant pass judgment as to whether or not she [TS]

01:08:04   was good at her job because I i dont really use read it but it seemed like a [TS]

01:08:09   lot of people came out of the woodwork to try to get her out of the CEO [TS]

01:08:14   position and it seemed like from an outsider's perspective the whole of [TS]

01:08:18   Reddit tried to find out of out of the charity will and the only real concrete [TS]

01:08:26   information I've gotten about this is from hello internet and I just listened [TS]

01:08:31   to actually see you there latest episode of Lincoln show notes where they talk [TS]

01:08:36   about this and she peak rate seems to be a pretty big red is a pretty big fan [TS]

01:08:42   whereas Brady Haran the other hosts seems to have a much more similar [TS]

01:08:46   perspective to myself or I should say I have some more similar suspected to him [TS]

01:08:51   in that it all seems really gross to me from the outside and it all seems like [TS]

01:08:56   it seems like a kind of crummy corner the internet but I'm probably judging [TS]

01:09:02   unfairly because I'm only hearing about the promised parts of this corner of the [TS]

01:09:05   internet so I don't know John do you have any thoughts on this [TS]

01:09:12   I do I think it's worth explaining what you read it is broadly speaking because [TS]

01:09:19   people don't use it like I don't think the name tells you anything about it you [TS]

01:09:25   can and you could get confused about what goes on there it is in the grand [TS]

01:09:30   scheme of things it's it's a website where people go to have a little [TS]

01:09:35   communities you make a subreddit about whatever topic you are interested in [TS]

01:09:38   talking about and their people can shellings with each other and they can [TS]

01:09:41   comment on the links and they can also vote on each other's comments they [TS]

01:09:45   basically what it boils down to you probably heard about the sites about [TS]

01:09:47   like this where you can make a little sub community you have it you have an [TS]

01:09:51   account [TS]

01:09:52   you can share information with each other and links in comments and then the [TS]

01:09:56   things that you share that people can comment on an everyone gets to vote on [TS]

01:09:59   the things that you say and it seems like it well whatever you know we've had [TS]

01:10:03   web bulletin boards we had you know dig and hacker news like a million other [TS]

01:10:09   sites that are like this credit is one of those sites it was one of the one [TS]

01:10:13   that it kind of caught on its very large very popular there are some credits for [TS]

01:10:18   everything you could possibly imagine [TS]

01:10:19   technologies to cats alligators to knitting to everything you can imagine [TS]

01:10:24   it seems like you know everything is like whatever it's it's time to act on [TS]

01:10:30   them now I'm not sure there are made money they have difficult trying to [TS]

01:10:33   comfort them on and station better but they got a tremendous amount of traffic [TS]

01:10:36   at the place where people go everything else about it like it's sort of a [TS]

01:10:41   problems of their own making [TS]

01:10:43   because if the setting aside how do you make money like we talked about that [TS]

01:10:46   today I value got a lot of traffic get out of the use you got a lot of eyeballs [TS]

01:10:49   or whatever figure out how to monetize them like that the decision ready to [TS]

01:10:53   face with his decision to many sites that are very popular faced with an [TS]

01:10:58   almost every second thing go ahead and make better decisions about this because [TS]

01:11:02   since anyone tell me make an account to make a little subgroup or whatever about [TS]

01:11:06   whatever topic they want do you have some kind of policy terms and conditions [TS]

01:11:15   Code of Conduct something saying what are you allowed to do and say and what [TS]

01:11:20   kind of groups are you allowed to happen this site and I i for the life of me I [TS]

01:11:23   can't think of another website that doesn't have something like that [TS]

01:11:27   certainly Twitter does and Twitter you know we have complained about the [TS]

01:11:30   harassment or stuff like that leads to have a policy right red its big thing [TS]

01:11:34   was like no man free speech anybody can come here and make a subreddit about [TS]

01:11:39   anything and like we should be allowed to say we're like any moment in time [TS]

01:11:44   when some free speech on the internet just died I don't think I've seen an [TS]

01:11:49   example of it being correct maybe they don't hang out on constitutional law [TS]

01:11:52   boards maybe what people really mean is I'm allowed to say whatever I want on [TS]

01:11:57   someone else's website because free speech right so read it the people who [TS]

01:12:01   run red it fancy themselves as like we're not just a website [TS]

01:12:05   we are the internet and we are completely neutral and even know where [TS]

01:12:09   privately-held company that pays money to someone to run our servers and pays [TS]

01:12:13   employees to write the software for them and doesn't really we are just a giant [TS]

01:12:18   level playing field for everybody to come and and therefore we don't want to [TS]

01:12:25   have pretty much any controls over what you're allowed to do what you're allowed [TS]

01:12:29   to say what kind of groups here ought to have all everything is well all people [TS]

01:12:34   all ideas all behavior as long as I guess you don't have to us in industry [TS]

01:12:38   or something like that would be bad but I think down that like you just using [TS]

01:12:42   our site you are typing words into a box and clicking buttons anything to do with [TS]

01:12:46   a ok with us and a lot of the controversy with the new CEO came in [TS]

01:12:50   because she decided that some things are not okay they were gonna have some sort [TS]

01:12:55   of barriers and rules about oh ok well you can't just type anywhere you want to [TS]

01:12:59   this box you can have communities surrounding anything you want because we [TS]

01:13:03   don't want we don't want you those type of people using our website we don't [TS]

01:13:07   want them to be part of our clinical community and in case I go it seems like [TS]

01:13:11   a key place whenever there is no reddit community brenda's gigantic credit has [TS]

01:13:15   people upset with cute cat pictures right and then read it has people who [TS]

01:13:19   were just you know showing pictures and that people to make fun of them or [TS]

01:13:26   whatever or like racist bulletin boards or you know like every possible while I [TS]

01:13:31   do you can imagine the ideas like oh this is this is a place where we can go [TS]

01:13:34   and we're allowed to use these people have outside and put our information in [TS]

01:13:37   their database servers and send requested their web servers and it's all [TS]

01:13:41   free speech man we can do what everyone and credit trying to add some kind of [TS]

01:13:46   controls like ok with certain things we don't want to be on something to [TS]

01:13:50   reddit.com like a certain things we don't want so if you wanna do that go [TS]

01:13:53   someplace else and do it the reddit community such as it is like the people [TS]

01:13:57   who believe in free speech like you can't stop us from putting words into [TS]

01:14:01   your servers that's our that's our birthright read it is about free speech [TS]

01:14:07   and it's just so depressing to me to see and by the way they're backsliding on [TS]

01:14:13   that [TS]

01:14:13   nothing like that that's the euro is gone and new person in here I don't know [TS]

01:14:17   this but the new person is actually one of the early people in matters like [TS]

01:14:20   actually want once you've got to be do anything you want except for these very [TS]

01:14:27   few things we narrowly defined as being bad I don't understand what it was the [TS]

01:14:32   sort of the mental barrier here is the people running the site to putting their [TS]

01:14:36   foot down and saying just okay and this is not they they somehow feel like by [TS]

01:14:40   doing that they're crushing freedom under the they're they're jack-booted [TS]

01:14:43   like you just run reddit.com it's a website on the internet when people type [TS]

01:14:47   words into boxes and put them into the server database servers that you run [TS]

01:14:50   like that is not that doesn't define free speech so I find it incredibly [TS]

01:14:55   frustrating to see like the oldest posturing and all this anger also [TS]

01:15:00   misdirected and the only thing up in the show is about this is a two tweets from [TS]

01:15:03   Lori boss but I think that I think sum up this this entire thing she says that [TS]

01:15:09   the tragedy of on community spaces is that the goals and inclusive and safe [TS]

01:15:13   are at the extreme mutually exclusive goals so much as I like do you wanna [TS]

01:15:18   have a place where everybody is welcome [TS]

01:15:20   we are inclusive site anyone come to read it and you can make a subreddit [TS]

01:15:23   like it's good to include parent like this right we don't we don't tell you [TS]

01:15:26   can't come here because your eyes of the wrong color or because you're speak [TS]

01:15:30   their own language are you know you're into the wrong you like dog instead of [TS]

01:15:34   cats inclusive site right but also say 42 safe me right next to it at some [TS]

01:15:40   point you have to exclude someone you get to pick if it's the people feeling [TS]

01:15:44   unsafe for the people making him feel unsafe so at some point you have to [TS]

01:15:46   exclude somebody beat everybody can people come in and do terrible things to [TS]

01:15:50   you have to a certain point exclude somebody who you want to exclude you [TS]

01:15:53   want to people who don't don't feel safe because there's a bulletin board about [TS]

01:15:57   how to rape women and that kind of makes that women on reddit not feel very good [TS]

01:16:01   and you know they are somehow associated with the same website where this morning [TS]

01:16:04   this or do you want to do people who are making the let me tell you how to read [TS]

01:16:10   women subreddit you wanna make them leave you have to exclude somebody [TS]

01:16:13   because you let everybody in some people are not going to feel safe or [TS]

01:16:16   comfortable or a welcome in this community these two tweets basically [TS]

01:16:21   summon up and incredibly everything I read anything from these people they [TS]

01:16:24   make the decision like what we really [TS]

01:16:26   want is for the people to be able to make the reports like not the specific [TS]

01:16:31   example that I know they've been whatever like people some people are [TS]

01:16:34   made to feel uncomfortable by what pretty much anyone would say is vile [TS]

01:16:40   terrible ideas and behavior and it's like well they need to be allowed to do [TS]

01:16:44   that because we are the government of the united states and we must allow them [TS]

01:16:48   the freedom to put their words and our database servers there for free speech [TS]

01:16:52   sorry I just gotta let him do that it's just it it boggles my mind and makes me [TS]

01:16:57   angry infraction mostly because there is a lot of good stuff on read it because [TS]

01:17:00   again the people who make the cute cat pictures epic she's really cute they're [TS]

01:17:04   not bothering anybody and the thing is i guess i graph somewhere trying to show [TS]

01:17:11   like the overlap between the various boards there is some surprising overlap [TS]

01:17:15   but it sometimes not so surprising you know how many people are member of the [TS]

01:17:19   white supremacy board but also a member of the cute cat pictures bar ok members [TS]

01:17:24   of the white supremacy Board and members of the men's rights book and he starts a [TS]

01:17:28   little more members of gamer gate and members of the young nazis of America [TS]

01:17:31   board that is not a hundred percent over that but i dont I would love to see a [TS]

01:17:37   graph of like the cat people really just kept people or so many people of cats [TS]

01:17:43   that equal number of neo-nazism in the cat boards as are in every other board I [TS]

01:17:47   don't know anyway I think that that is a ridiculous thing that the people running [TS]

01:17:53   read it can't seem to get a handle on the idea that if they get to choose what [TS]

01:17:57   kind of people get to put words into their database everything seemed [TS]

01:18:01   incapable of making any sort of common sense decision but what should be [TS]

01:18:07   allowed to happen on red or maybe they just totally for like there may be the [TS]

01:18:11   anarchist maybe to say we want to run a bunch of stories and we want to let [TS]

01:18:13   everyone see anything go for it and like there you go that's that's when you know [TS]

01:18:17   that's why people keep talking like the downfall of red and everything because I [TS]

01:18:20   think most people who use read it had an idea that the people who ran read it had [TS]

01:18:25   similar standards then about what is and isn't sort of decent unacceptable and [TS]

01:18:31   the people around reddit wanna let everybody do everything the rest of the [TS]

01:18:34   people have to think I'm just gonna slowly fade away because [TS]

01:18:37   known to be associated with the site like that like a very small number its [TS]

01:18:40   gonna turn into you know for channel reach and write like if if you let [TS]

01:18:44   everybody in immensely everybody leaves at some of the most terrible people and [TS]

01:18:47   congratulations you know read it you are running a site filled with the most [TS]

01:18:51   terrible people feel free to do that feel free to let them open text boxes to [TS]

01:18:55   each other [TS]

01:18:55   hope you feel good about the news site you built because that's what you're [TS]

01:18:59   effectively creating by on anybody do everything I don't have much to say on [TS]

01:19:04   on read it because I don't know anything about read it and every time I have [TS]

01:19:08   visited it for something either try to find information on something are [TS]

01:19:11   following a link there every visit to it has made me never want to visit again [TS]

01:19:15   I'm not exaggerating every time like this is terrible wide appeal and I know [TS]

01:19:23   like academically I know there are good parts of it I've never stumbled upon [TS]

01:19:27   those really never in a good ask me anything [TS]

01:19:31   thing those are usually really hard to navigate the first of all I hate message [TS]

01:19:36   comments like that and I was an old form nerd back in the day so I know the whole [TS]

01:19:42   I know the problems with both with both netted comments and also flat threads [TS]

01:19:47   they both have dysfunction two different dysfunction so you know I am very [TS]

01:19:54   familiar with the challenges in both the community monitoring and regulation and [TS]

01:20:00   also the technical side of how community software online how how how this [TS]

01:20:05   community style thing is built and how things are enforced it's it's a very [TS]

01:20:10   hard problem not to mention my time at tumblr we saw a lot of things not quite [TS]

01:20:15   the same level as well as dealing with but a lot of kind of related problems of [TS]

01:20:21   things like you know like every every couple days we get a phone call from [TS]

01:20:26   high school principal or like some kind of like you know middle of nowhere [TS]

01:20:32   police department or something complaining about something that some [TS]

01:20:35   kids how about some other kid on Tumblr and wanting to get down like when you [TS]

01:20:39   have to deal with stuff like that when your community site it's dealing with [TS]

01:20:42   community stuff is just really messy it's it's very difficult and it's very [TS]

01:20:48   very messy from the reason you said John [TS]

01:20:50   like there's a lot of these decisions that there is no good option you choose [TS]

01:20:55   between two bad options and a lot of things like like i staying with my cell [TS]

01:21:00   download stuff earlier like a lot of things like you know you you just have [TS]

01:21:03   to pick lesser of two evils and no matter what you pay its gonna have big [TS]

01:21:07   downside for someone or a disincentive eyes good stuff or identify the bad [TS]

01:21:11   stuff but we're not like we're not even at the hard questions like they're the [TS]

01:21:15   type of things like am I allowed to threaten to rape somebody on Reddit [TS]

01:21:18   reddit CEOs like wow wow it technically it's not a threat of violence we're not [TS]

01:21:23   talking about the people get into a heated argument and should they be [TS]

01:21:27   allowed to college of the jerks in my ad hominem attacks are not allowed like [TS]

01:21:32   that's in the gray areas difficult to figure out of whatever talk about just [TS]

01:21:34   like Blake you no racism sexism real threats and violence and just and series [TS]

01:21:43   like the city the new CEO is like on the board gone respond to people not sure of [TS]

01:21:48   that cut you're not sure that's that's what that's the kind of community again [TS]

01:21:53   I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to do this feel free to make this kind [TS]

01:21:55   of community but if you like waffles tough decisions boy should we allow rape [TS]

01:21:59   threats or is that against I guess we have to allow don't want that guy speech [TS]

01:22:03   to be impinge because government of the United States of America [TS]

01:22:06   well and and I think first of all we should definitely say that last episode [TS]

01:22:11   of Helen Internet and the last two episodes of rocket covered this probably [TS]

01:22:15   way better than we can cause those are people to know a lot more credit than we [TS]

01:22:17   do and so they they really did a very good job of that [TS]

01:22:21   listen to those who want more of the inside stuff about like you know what [TS]

01:22:24   the what specific challenges that the CEO of Reddit faces and you know why on [TS]

01:22:30   how might have been good or bad for that you know anyway but it seems like you [TS]

01:22:36   know one of the big pressures they have now is business they they they they make [TS]

01:22:41   some money and they have it they have this they had this corporate owner and [TS]

01:22:44   they have a board of directors and they want more money because the money they [TS]

01:22:48   make is not really commensurate with the amount of traffic they get it they [TS]

01:22:52   should be making a lot more is this what you would do [TS]

01:22:56   make more money like it to go mainstream like that that's the thing like so let [TS]

01:23:01   me tell you a story for my path on the boring [TS]

01:23:03   the reason it is actually about the same coffee shop at the last longer if we go [TS]

01:23:09   to my hometown cuppa joe in Bexley Ohio [TS]

01:23:13   they why was that they had a big problem where middle schoolers discovered it and [TS]

01:23:19   so it was always packed full of like a 12 year olds who were just kind of [TS]

01:23:25   loitering around hardly buying anything but just taking up all the seats and [TS]

01:23:30   hang on outside and standing around smoking and it was just not a great [TS]

01:23:35   scene and and they drove other customers away because who wants to hang out [TS]

01:23:41   around a bunch of dealing with middle schoolers who are bored and loitering [TS]

01:23:44   and not doing anything and smoking and so one summer they banned them I don't [TS]

01:23:50   know how doesn't matter how they banned all the middle schoolers they implement [TS]

01:23:54   some kind of like me makes me with a parent or whatever doesn't matter [TS]

01:23:57   somehow they banned them and for a while the place was empty and I knew the [TS]

01:24:02   manager of the time and ask him like you know how was going and he said they were [TS]

01:24:06   making more money than ever because you know even though it wasn't getting the [TS]

01:24:12   volume and got before it was getting more of the profitable customers the [TS]

01:24:17   older people to college students are studying in buying buying drinks all day [TS]

01:24:21   the people who work would come in the morning and come in the evenings who you [TS]

01:24:24   know just buying stuff and leaving and making you know cycling the tables more [TS]

01:24:29   often not putting off other people when they when they come in there and I don't [TS]

01:24:35   know how to resolve that I left but they [TS]

01:24:39   I was very surprised at the time and looking back on it shouldn't be that [TS]

01:24:43   worked so well for them and you know read it I think faces not that different [TS]

01:24:48   of the dilemma here where it's like if they want to become more mainstream if [TS]

01:24:52   they want to become more attractive to advertisers and therefore more [TS]

01:24:55   profitable if they want their value of their assets to go up if they want the [TS]

01:24:59   number of advertisers to go up I think they have to get rid of all this garbage [TS]

01:25:02   they have to get rid of all this like you know anarchy / libertarian free [TS]

01:25:07   speech [TS]

01:25:08   crazy people who are really just aggressive hateful people for a lot of [TS]

01:25:12   them like it or not not all the obviously but many of them are these [TS]

01:25:15   just very aggressive hateful people who feel entitled to have their words all [TS]

01:25:18   over the place I think you can't you can't have it both ways you can't have [TS]

01:25:22   that garbage on your site that is highly offensive legally questionable you know [TS]

01:25:28   no advertising want to be associated with that and also make more money with [TS]

01:25:32   advertising leaky you have to take one of the other and it seems like they're [TS]

01:25:36   trying to hide this the most objectionable stuff like ok lot of [TS]

01:25:39   people are offended by this bubble like we won't run ads against its over [TS]

01:25:42   technically not making money off of the valujet subsidizing with the other stuff [TS]

01:25:46   and we'll put it off in the corner and they'll stay by themselves and like why [TS]

01:25:50   why you bending over backwards to make sure these people have a place to share [TS]

01:25:53   hey nevermind like that it's not just over just let me put their words into [TS]

01:25:58   our database like if you want to go out to like the the sort of secondary [TS]

01:26:02   effects of allowing a place for people to reinforce each other's hateful ideas [TS]

01:26:07   and recruit new people and I go no incitement to violence against the Red [TS]

01:26:11   guidelines yeah I'm sure that will work exactly as intended when you get a bunch [TS]

01:26:14   of people talking to each other constantly over and over again in [TS]

01:26:17   sharing people pictures and videos and all sorts of terrible things there I'm [TS]

01:26:21   sure nothing bad will come out of that it'll just be positive like as long as [TS]

01:26:24   this they would need terms this means no it's so ridiculous and so it so asinine [TS]

01:26:28   and again that's the site they want to run go for it but if their job is to [TS]

01:26:31   make money for like for their parent company this is not the way to do it and [TS]

01:26:35   using your middle school coffee shop example it's as if at a certain point [TS]

01:26:39   all the nine middle schoolers left at all that was left was middle school [TS]

01:26:43   students and you realize by now we have to cater to them because there are only [TS]

01:26:46   customers like they're not at this point but like if you suddenly turning to well [TS]

01:26:51   I guess we have to become a dance club or something right because it read it is [TS]

01:26:58   not at that point not even close to but like if you just keep going down this [TS]

01:27:01   path I think I feel like the regular people will leave and you'll just be [TS]

01:27:05   left with like we are a community of hate speech bulletin boards because [TS]

01:27:09   these people have no place else to go with its like a chance you know fortune [TS]

01:27:12   to a lesser extent yeah that's not the kind of business you want to run is not [TS]

01:27:16   that's not a growth market that's not a lot of people without a spending power [TS]

01:27:21   money wanna go mainstream and it just seems like the CEO is trying to preserve [TS]

01:27:25   like this ideal we provide a forum for people to openly share ideas and I admit [TS]

01:27:32   that that's sort of a high-minded ideals of read it but the consequences of it [TS]

01:27:36   are not going to be good for credits bottom line or for the popularity of [TS]

01:27:42   read it or read reputation or for his reputation anything really just seems [TS]

01:27:46   like all downside and again go ahead you know if that's what the company wants to [TS]

01:27:50   do feel free to pursue that path but I don't see it turning into anything good [TS]

01:27:56   for anyone involved so this probably doesn't mean anything for the purpose of [TS]

01:28:00   our discussion and I probably shouldn't take as a sign of me being right or [TS]

01:28:04   wrong about this but the coffee shop closed last fall [TS]

01:28:08   shops closed all the time I know they sound at the building in Marin sold to [TS]

01:28:13   get knocked down but somewhere like it that's part of the whole idea of the of [TS]

01:28:20   the sort of someone who cherish that there really is eradicated I think [TS]

01:28:24   there's this is a stereotype of a typical Reddit user that's perhaps [TS]

01:28:27   somewhat a trip I think there are a lot of people like all three of us who don't [TS]

01:28:32   go to read it and let someone links to it and then we link to it we look at the [TS]

01:28:36   funny cat gifts and then we move on with our lives right like but we reddit users [TS]

01:28:40   are a part of the community and we're not part of the community but we thought [TS]

01:28:43   you know it's a popular site people linked you to it you end up there you [TS]

01:28:47   look at something and then you go someplace else I think a lot of that [TS]

01:28:50   traffic is from things like that I don't know maybe they know the breakdown if [TS]

01:28:56   most of the traffic comes from people just posting hate each other and [TS]

01:29:01   re-enter getting a big arguments and 17 level indented comment thread attached [TS]

01:29:05   to things maybe that is where their stuff comes from just it just seems to [TS]

01:29:09   me it's a bad decision I think less of the people who run read it every time I [TS]

01:29:13   hear one of the decisions are see them in the side of the satellite largely [TS]

01:29:17   nuanced discussions as they tried to to parse what should and shouldn't be [TS]

01:29:21   acceptable behavior and read it and just revealed themselves have no [TS]

01:29:24   understanding [TS]

01:29:25   of other people's experiences and you know it's late and I'm sure that all the [TS]

01:29:29   specific examples I said in this podcast are not accurate feel free to wander [TS]

01:29:33   ready yourself and try to find out what these people's opinions are but every [TS]

01:29:36   time I see anything from them as I go to read it and see these discussions with [TS]

01:29:40   it with the [TS]

01:29:42   the new leadership behind read it I just think I I was excited when the power [TS]

01:29:47   came in and started making changes like really straightforward sensible changes [TS]

01:29:51   get rid of the hate groups and was like I hate groups what do you mean like it's [TS]

01:29:57   just I don't again I don't know the details I don't know why she was pushed [TS]

01:30:01   out I know I'm sure she was subject to the same harassment that every woman [TS]

01:30:04   gets you know Peter Malkin said anything ever let alone is the CEO of a company [TS]

01:30:08   is in charge of a bunch of little children who are angry about everything [TS]

01:30:12   especially like that company like I i cant imagine a more hostile well maybe [TS]

01:30:18   there are some but that's like that was definitely on the on the more hostile [TS]

01:30:21   side and I don't know if she should you know I have no idea what her she's all I [TS]

01:30:26   know is that the few things I heard announce come out of her leadership [TS]

01:30:29   seemed like a good idea and then was a backlash against them I thought the [TS]

01:30:32   press the button images kicked out I got even more depressed than anything the [TS]

01:30:35   views of the new CEO is apparently one of the founders this just like they're [TS]

01:30:39   not getting so anyway [TS]

01:30:41   read it is read it is really not for me and furthermore I think they've read its [TS]

01:30:47   goals are to be a place that has it continues to have a lot of traffic and [TS]

01:30:51   it makes a lot of money that the current strategy they're pursuing doesn't make [TS]

01:30:54   any sense to me I think the other thing that I find fascinating about all this [TS]

01:30:58   kind of hinted at earlier is how a group of users of our website can seemingly [TS]

01:31:08   have so much influence that they can cause the chief executive officer of a [TS]

01:31:13   company to be fired just missed quit whatever that's just that's just weird [TS]

01:31:20   to me that even a couple hundred thousand people who I think I'd heard [TS]

01:31:23   that there were 200,000 signatures on the petition this online petition which [TS]

01:31:28   isn't even really signatures but whatever [TS]

01:31:31   that that many people came together to decide to try to oust a CEO man-woman it [TS]

01:31:39   doesn't matter like that that's just insane to me that that the users of a [TS]

01:31:44   website none of whom I think you're paying the website any money [TS]

01:31:48   seem to think that they can have that kind of influence in numbers seem to [TS]

01:31:52   have that kind of influence and i think a lot of the started if I understand [TS]

01:31:56   things correctly because I really believe it [TS]

01:31:58   moderator was just mister something like that I guess the person who did now it's [TS]

01:32:04   this is kind of like this is a really bad headaches and game in journalism [TS]

01:32:07   it's like that was not really the reason like that was that was like what ignited [TS]

01:32:12   a lot of the argument but you know it was really a lot of other pressures I [TS]

01:32:16   think it sounds like but you know and and especially like you know it was even [TS]

01:32:20   that is just like the King journalism das Lied even that official story line [TS]

01:32:25   is questionable because she didn't fire that moderator the mail co-founder did I [TS]

01:32:30   didn't realize that yeah this whole thing is a mess anyway at getting into [TS]

01:32:34   detail of it is just readily able you know there's no there's no good to come [TS]

01:32:39   of diving into details of it because that's not really what the argument was [TS]

01:32:42   about and what it comes down to is if if a whole bunch of users were were calling [TS]

01:32:47   for someone's head and that resulted in her getting what I call quick fired she [TS]

01:32:53   was forced to quit it was not him i think im just done now coincidentally [TS]

01:32:58   this week [TS]

01:33:00   know she was quick fired its cool happen to the best of us but that wouldn't have [TS]

01:33:05   happened if just some angry users who are you know he thought horrible people [TS]

01:33:10   it's just they had a problem with her the reason that happened I think you can [TS]

01:33:13   read into who they appointed instead this other co-founder we've been gone [TS]

01:33:18   for a while [TS]

01:33:19   who has these very much like you know libertarian anything goes viewpoints if [TS]

01:33:24   the board appointed him as the new CEO that means that the members of the board [TS]

01:33:30   and the people you know who have control and equity in influence the company a [TS]

01:33:36   good portion of them want this anything-goes attitude to stay [TS]

01:33:40   it's not enough that a whole bunch of users complained if only these users [TS]

01:33:45   getting angry and these users are people who are not particularly credible you [TS]

01:33:48   don't really want to cater to you can help it that would have been enough to [TS]

01:33:51   get her out this only gave the people in power of motivating reason to get her [TS]

01:33:57   out now because she was pushing indirection that not the users didn't [TS]

01:34:01   want that they didn't want that the power holders did not want and they put [TS]

01:34:06   in a guy who is the complete opposite in the in this area in this area you know [TS]

01:34:11   they try to keep things team and under controllers be more everything goes so [TS]

01:34:14   obviously the people who own and control the company wanted to be the other way [TS]

01:34:20   yeah I think it's the CSA generation ago don't think any details are important [TS]

01:34:24   it's basically like a vote of no confidence vote of no confidence from [TS]

01:34:27   the most local users but the opposition thing and apparently a vote of no [TS]

01:34:30   confidence from the board it just seems like you know you came in you start to [TS]

01:34:34   make some bold changes but in the end we are not behind you as the board saying [TS]

01:34:39   anything we do not support your decisions about what you see this [TS]

01:34:42   through and we're changing course and you're out right when it comes down to [TS]

01:34:47   is like it's up to you if you're going to be the leader of a company you [TS]

01:34:51   actually have to have absolute power in which case you can weather any storm and [TS]

01:34:54   do what you want to do or if there are people who are bosses of you and they [TS]

01:34:59   from their perspective they don't have confidence that the changes you're going [TS]

01:35:02   to make a good and they're hearing a lot of noise and the users in the users are [TS]

01:35:05   the most vocal users are are are staying with their actions and their words that [TS]

01:35:11   they don't like what you doing either you can imagine aboard thats nervous [TS]

01:35:14   about a company like Kobe had to sting we think it can be good this person [TS]

01:35:19   comes and makes budget changes then all I hear is a bunch of noise and bad [TS]

01:35:21   things change course change course and the new course like some people in China [TS]

01:35:26   are missing this new CEO is going to you know get rid of the bad even more than [TS]

01:35:30   she could that's possible because it's kind of like you know only nixon can go [TS]

01:35:34   to China I can read it only a man can make changes because people will only [TS]

01:35:38   accept the same exact words come out of this guy's mouth there was like oh [TS]

01:35:41   that's interesting I like to hear margaret is and she says it is I you are [TS]

01:35:45   destroying our freedom like to go back to the Stanley what kind of community [TS]

01:35:51   these people want to read it to be [TS]

01:35:54   who they want to be in this community and and what they wanted to be like what [TS]

01:35:59   they want to experience already like same thing between two people what do [TS]

01:36:01   you want to experience it's better to be like this game and said we are terrible [TS]

01:36:06   about dealing with harassment you want it to be a place where you go and if you [TS]

01:36:10   are any kind of group that's typically harassed you're going to get her ass and [TS]

01:36:14   you have no recourse that we're just trying to make that better by having the [TS]

01:36:17   tools to report people not required I think unfortunately with a condensed [TS]

01:36:21   matter if you reported someone for harassment you had to inform the person [TS]

01:36:25   that you were informing on them like was part of the process like they would send [TS]

01:36:29   them an email saying just so you know the person report you for harassment or [TS]

01:36:32   something like that was just a crazy setup made by people who didn't [TS]

01:36:35   understand the dynamics of harassment anyway I guess that credit they can do [TS]

01:36:40   what they want but when I hear everything I hear coming out of this [TS]

01:36:43   company so far as making the right now I'm at the point where I'm almost like [TS]

01:36:49   question whether wanna tap links to what I know is probably good content that all [TS]

01:36:52   enjoy like the interviews or you know funny cat pictures and stuff like that [TS]

01:36:55   and now I feel like by tapping this link mi supporting an organization that is [TS]

01:37:01   trying to you know make a home for people who I think should not have a [TS]

01:37:08   home for this way I wouldn't give these people home on a website that I ran [TS]

01:37:11   these people give them on the website of a run just fine but do I want to support [TS]

01:37:15   that with my clicks and whatever ads are gonna look like tapping that that's [TS]

01:37:18   that's the point where I am the better I'm I'm thinking that I've never thought [TS]

01:37:21   that about Twitter maybe it's because I cannot feel like I'm viewing ads and [TS]

01:37:25   Twitter using a third-party cloud or whatever but at this point with the red [TS]

01:37:28   links I'm I didn't even know like even though my casual to use its gonna [TS]

01:37:33   continue to do it [TS]

01:37:35   blocker three sponsors this week [TS]

01:37:38   lynda.com of her a mail route will see you next week [TS]

01:37:43   now this show they didn't even mean to be accidental accidental [TS]

01:37:56   because it was shown to be a team are cool [TS]

01:38:43   but no one to Digg and Reddit this show just going to be a long series of [TS]

01:38:49   Corrections about everything we got wrong about ready that's why I keep [TS]

01:38:51   trying to pull back to the big dick big picture we're casual users it seems like [TS]

01:38:54   a place I don't want to hang out yeah every time literally every time I've [TS]

01:38:58   gone there I've been turned off to it and I've gone to good content but just [TS]

01:39:04   like put everything I read about it every time I dive into these threats [TS]

01:39:07   like that screenshot can be real business obviously photoshopped a no go [TS]

01:39:10   to the actual site and find the actual comment to make this guy this is the guy [TS]

01:39:14   who's in charge is not like someone impersonating him the site hasn't been [TS]

01:39:18   hacked [TS]

01:39:19   like these are the real world that is people's mouths not you know it's not a [TS]

01:39:23   place I wanna hang out her be associated with a weird but I get really turned off [TS]

01:39:32   by read it because I know a few people I know certainly many people online these [TS]

01:39:39   read it anyway handful of people in real life please read it in it's kind of [TS]

01:39:43   creepy to me how people who take read it really seriously seem to think that in [TS]

01:39:51   in one of you said this earlier the entirety of the internet happens because [TS]

01:39:54   of Reddit like anything that's good on the internet it's because of Reddit [TS]

01:40:00   according to these people and that's just it's almost like a cult and I don't [TS]

01:40:04   know I don't mean that I'm sure some offended by that I don't mean it to be [TS]

01:40:08   offensive it's just that's the closest analogy I can think of is that all man [TS]

01:40:13   you don't understand [TS]

01:40:15   read it is where the internet happens man its cause of us that's why you know [TS]

01:40:19   all this cool stuff in your every gift ever been on the internet that's causing [TS]

01:40:22   us man gives it its just I don't know it's just it's creepy to me and and that [TS]

01:40:29   I find that to be a real turn off in an admittedly I'm very ignorant when it [TS]

01:40:33   comes to Reddit like you guys have said they are kinda I'll browse over to [TS]

01:40:36   something typically I can I am A or nama and then I'll leave and that's that but [TS]

01:40:42   it just seems so weird and creepy and coldish to me that I've never wanted to [TS]

01:40:50   invest any real time in it and now with what was there [TS]

01:40:53   tacit if not explicit supportable these hate groups I just think you not for me [TS]

01:40:59   there is something to them like the whole of you know you get enough people [TS]

01:41:03   together her enthusiastic about sharing things with each other and they make [TS]

01:41:06   these other communities like that is what makes the internet great but you [TS]

01:41:10   have to realize that when you reach a certain level of popularity you'll like [TS]

01:41:15   percentage wise you'll never able to get a certain subset of people who exhibit [TS]

01:41:20   what most of us would consider to be bad behavior that there there abusive to [TS]

01:41:23   people they do not just things like briefing and trailing they they make [TS]

01:41:28   that make your site worse and so most sites have at least an attempt to come [TS]

01:41:34   up especially in this whole thing is a big community accomplished a set of [TS]

01:41:36   rules to try to contain that and that the thing about ready to psych know our [TS]

01:41:41   philosophy is we don't that's the whole thing man just anything goes [TS]

01:41:47   you know anything goes except you can't hack us we don't like that that is but [TS]

01:41:51   anything else anything goes anywhere is that's how every community dies like [TS]

01:41:57   that these days you've seen tires groups go south because set of bad people would [TS]

01:42:02   come in they'd make everyone miserable but you can't stop them from posting in [TS]

01:42:06   the newsgroup you bad and your kill files but it would just like to meet you [TS]

01:42:09   know eventually people ok find this group is yours will leave and will start [TS]

01:42:14   a different group this this belongs to you now you can talk about whatever you [TS]

01:42:17   want here and we'll go elsewhere and that that i think is the dynamic of you [TS]

01:42:22   if you have a very popular community you have to have some kind of rules to [TS]

01:42:27   control things otherwise you'll inevitably only be left with the worst [TS]

01:42:30   of the worst because there are some set of people who are going to be obnoxious [TS]

01:42:34   and other people don't want to be around not just people and eventually all [TS]

01:42:38   you're left with their obnoxious people yeah I mean this this whole this whole [TS]

01:42:42   mess of what it takes to to maintain a community site and all the garbage you [TS]

01:42:49   have to deal with as the platform owner like I saw I saw a lot of tumblr I've [TS]

01:42:54   seen a lot in the past said to have been a part of it is made me never want to [TS]

01:42:59   make something that includes like hosting user published content ever [TS]

01:43:04   again [TS]

01:43:05   and Sunday AM I forget the saying this and do it anyway but they're like some [TS]

01:43:09   features of overcast that I would I have considered doing related things like me [TS]

01:43:14   you be cool to me like a podcast CMS and and you know hosts podcast for people [TS]

01:43:20   like the Tumblr for podcast kind of thing and then i think im at the deal [TS]

01:43:25   with all this crap well someone's gonna post you know I hate podcast and I gotta [TS]

01:43:29   go to hear from some police officers and take it down deal with them you know [TS]

01:43:32   arguing with me and it's like i don't like I don't want to have to deal with [TS]

01:43:35   any of that it's so much and even simple things like user reviews of of podcasts [TS]

01:43:41   I never wanna do that for so many reasons and this is one of them but [TS]

01:43:44   there's so many things like I don't want to have to deal with it it's like the [TS]

01:43:49   position I take as much like some of the design decision in 10 dough is made with [TS]

01:43:52   online gameplay it's like to really give people a way to be horrible so you don't [TS]

01:43:57   have to deal with it that that's generally michael's like just make [TS]

01:44:01   products that don't involve people publishing stuff on something you own [TS]

01:44:05   and you have to deal with the ramifications it's hard work and volume [TS]

01:44:09   wise you got a problem but i just bided buddies if you did like a podcast [TS]

01:44:14   hosting thing and someone put up like a weekly I love you like no [TS]

01:44:20   out you you know and why do you get the pic when I want and it's like a slippery [TS]

01:44:25   slope don't try to put your pie guess I'm Argosy centers you I honestly think [TS]

01:44:29   that nobody would be like because Marco got rid of the KKK podcast we should not [TS]

01:44:34   put our podcast on his site because he's obviously it like the whole slippery [TS]

01:44:38   slope sent to them like most people who like alright well like why would he want [TS]

01:44:42   that there was you know as I will he was gonna ban that well so you gonna be like [TS]

01:44:46   Medicare and again I'm a vegetarian bug is really a really afraid of that like I [TS]

01:44:51   feel like that is your job as someone who starts a run the company to say yes [TS]

01:44:55   I am imposing my values on the private company that I own like that's yes [TS]

01:44:59   that's what I'm doing I am NOT bu s government and I don't want vegetarians [TS]

01:45:03   I can ban them and then they can say don't go to Marcos podcast I guess he [TS]

01:45:07   banned that vegetarian podcast and he's a sensor alright well fine then that is [TS]

01:45:11   up to you [TS]

01:45:12   Marco decide what are you going to ban [TS]

01:45:14   honestly they could be badly KK podcast nobody who you care about is going to [TS]

01:45:18   say well I'm not gonna go to indicate a get well you know then go someplace else [TS]

01:45:23   i'm not the only private Internet in the world double-storey start your text my [TS]

01:45:27   database right make your own site [TS]

01:45:30   go somewhere else like obviously get down to the hard decisions right will [TS]

01:45:34   give you a staunch Democrat and Republican pod guess they were never oh [TS]

01:45:37   don't go there you like you you build the community through your decisions if [TS]

01:45:41   you didn't allow Republican and Democrat ones guess what you have an entire site [TS]

01:45:46   filled with democrat and left-leaning that nothing you want to build up its [TS]

01:45:50   not that you made a bad decision if it is [TS]

01:45:52   graduations you are the world's biggest collector of you know left-leaning [TS]

01:45:57   political podcast the United States like you design your own community by [TS]

01:46:01   deciding what you want to live in and what you don't want to let in and not [TS]

01:46:06   making any decision is a very big decision in and of itself I just don't [TS]

01:46:13   know it's I find a depressant and the biggest problem is that read it is this [TS]

01:46:18   big public online community that seems from from the little I know about it it [TS]

01:46:24   seems to have by design and intentionally incredibly light [TS]

01:46:29   moderation and I've never seen an online community that had very light to know [TS]

01:46:34   moderation where that worked out well it just doesn't work if I think they have [TS]

01:46:39   think that heavy moderation but just within the groups and that you don't [TS]

01:46:42   like it [TS]

01:46:43   start your own sub bread and then you can be the moderator and then you get [TS]

01:46:46   inside the rules like that is that the whole system it's like you can make your [TS]

01:46:49   own little ball and have every right but then then but then saw the site as a [TS]

01:46:54   whole [TS]

01:46:55   doesn't practice heavy heavy moderation is you can just create your own hate [TS]

01:46:58   area over here that's why that's what people think of it as the internet like [TS]

01:47:01   oh it's not it's not know who read it is the internet like yeah within your [TS]

01:47:05   subreddit you can have rules and you can have mom you can say in this post in [TS]

01:47:10   this suburb only post things in pig latin if you post anything not in pig [TS]

01:47:13   latin you'll be banned and will put you down like fine whatever you want but [TS]

01:47:16   it's like to have perfect role but the whole already told me I can't start my [TS]

01:47:22   own subreddit censorship credit in the internet no [TS]

01:47:25   like you know in general there is seemingly little to no moderation of the [TS]

01:47:33   entire community it is yes within subreddit you can moderate but there is [TS]

01:47:38   the community at large has very little in like you know we seen I saw so many [TS]

01:47:44   times in the past [TS]

01:47:45   community at like 11 of my my best online community experiences was that [TS]

01:47:52   the time I spent on the something awful forums and I i dont sound stupid now to [TS]

01:47:57   other people but that when I was there I don't know what it's like now but when I [TS]

01:48:02   was there in the early two thousands very heavily obviously lived there that [TS]

01:48:07   was my internet it was insanely well run and it was very tightly moderated and [TS]

01:48:12   there was a payroll to get in and so you didn't have problems of span he didn't [TS]

01:48:17   have people being total jerks as if they were they get bennett loser 10 bucks if [TS]

01:48:23   they want to come back and it looks like it was it was incredibly healthy and I [TS]

01:48:29   know I know it sounds crazy to people who know of something awful like it on a [TS]

01:48:33   surface level but it was incredibly well learning community because it was [TS]

01:48:37   because it had very distinct rules and they were enforced very very well most [TS]

01:48:42   of the time and so you you didn't have this kind of like rush of craziness from [TS]

01:48:47   the public and just hate everywhere constantly was it was very well run and [TS]

01:48:53   I was a member of other communities before and after that that were WAY WAY [TS]

01:48:56   less well-run Twitter being being good example I mean twitter is not quite the [TS]

01:49:01   same thing but it has many of the same challenges and there are many many [TS]

01:49:07   problems when when once you start removing layers of moderation and and [TS]

01:49:12   involvement by moderators and you start committing more more things and having [TS]

01:49:16   fewer and fewer filters it just it deteriorates very very quickly into all [TS]

01:49:22   these things that people hate about read it I think they are staked their [TS]

01:49:25   comments are good example because they are also kind of like we don't want to [TS]

01:49:29   stop anybody from saying whatever [TS]

01:49:31   wanna say so on and so forth but they have guidelines it seemed unenforceable [TS]

01:49:35   they basically have like it don't insult other people like no ad hominem attacks [TS]

01:49:38   right that's how can you have a border people argue over you know back vs beat [TS]

01:49:43   PC or argue about Scientology argue about global warming and enforce that [TS]

01:49:48   it's impossible to force people are gonna call each other jerks right they [TS]

01:49:53   do with human beings human beings look at things and say is this person just [TS]

01:49:57   saying something that the only purpose is to put this other person down doesn't [TS]

01:50:01   add anything to the argument like then you can I mean this is even before they [TS]

01:50:05   had downloaded like the moderators will come in and moderate a particular [TS]

01:50:08   comment by a particular person in the neighbors complained about and they [TS]

01:50:10   would fight over this is a tremendous amount of work but having those people [TS]

01:50:14   in their constant trying to make those decisions about our are you violating [TS]

01:50:18   our posting guidelines the posting guidelines [TS]

01:50:20   just so like it seemingly unenforceable certainly not machine enforceable and [TS]

01:50:26   people going to make new accounts and so on so forth but they did you know that [TS]

01:50:29   things are in there one having an account with a lot of posts in and along [TS]

01:50:33   registration date was seen as something like valuable like you had reputation [TS]

01:50:36   based on how long you been there and how many posts you made and so on so forth [TS]

01:50:39   again this evening before voting so people didn't want to abandon their [TS]

01:50:42   account and start a new one and that meant that essentially be equivalent of [TS]

01:50:46   Twitter eggs really kind of you know indicator that maybe someone is just [TS]

01:50:51   here to cause problems if they have like one post and it was they registered [TS]

01:50:55   their camp today over every account with free like that but just having those [TS]

01:50:59   moderate is in there trying to do [TS]

01:51:01   trying and basically because you know how you can place the candidates large [TS]

01:51:05   but just trying to do it knowing that if you say something too obnoxious like [TS]

01:51:10   it's kind of like you don't speeding if you go seventy miles an hour maybe fine [TS]

01:51:13   but if you go three hundred miles an hour someone's gonna find you and stop [TS]

01:51:16   you eventually right people would end so people get moderated people get banned [TS]

01:51:21   people make new accounts those new account get banned is the constant [TS]

01:51:23   battle like I just feel like having people in there trying to do the right [TS]

01:51:29   thing the right thing according to you know it lets you know what does our [TS]

01:51:32   second I think is the right thing to do our sector things the right thing to do [TS]

01:51:35   is to not be insulting to each other that's a mean it's not a vague and not a [TS]

01:51:41   high bar people can still say some pretty terrible things with them [TS]

01:51:45   the rules guidelines but let's you know is we're gonna come on and people are [TS]

01:51:49   going to tell me to kill myself immediately know because that person [TS]

01:51:52   eventually will get you know that post will disappear and now they have down [TS]

01:51:55   boating and then that account banned in like there are people fighting on the [TS]

01:52:00   side of the users so to speak there are there people there trying to moderate [TS]

01:52:03   and an unsuccessful as it may be it sends a signal about what about the site [TS]

01:52:08   like the site sort of has a personality and this the personality is this bad [TS]

01:52:14   thing that most people think it's bad this site also believes is bad and is [TS]

01:52:17   trying to do something about it was really hard [TS]