The Accidental Tech Podcast

12: Accidental Server Hardware


00:00:00   do you have opinions on kidman's as by chance after your last show where the [TS]

00:00:05   three of us were talking about apples tick tock strategy with iOS somebody [TS]

00:00:11   tweeted out US publisher bandurski which are probably pronounced wrong I'm Sorry [TS]

00:00:15   Sorry public and he wrote a blog post that was actually fairly short so [TS]

00:00:19   hopefully we'll remember to put this in the show notes and you can take a look [TS]

00:00:22   but he made an interesting point the premise of it was you know what's [TS]

00:00:26   interesting is that the economic actually read this year the tick [TS]

00:00:30   versions of iOS came with the US versions of the devices iOS three with [TS]

00:00:34   iPhone gt3 GIS analyst 5 with the iPhone for us on the other hand [TS]

00:00:38   hardware releases such as such as the iPhone 4 and iPhone 5 launched alongside [TS]

00:00:43   talk releases of iOS iPhone 4 with iOS 4 and iPhone 5 with I was six so now not [TS]

00:00:51   reading anymore the general premise he drives a tease hey even though even if [TS]

00:00:56   you consider the software on a tick tock and if you consider the hardware in the [TS]

00:01:01   tick tock what's interesting is there [TS]

00:01:03   offset its like a hundred eighty-degree offset sine wave so there there's always [TS]

00:01:08   going to be taking always going to be a top and that's kind of an interesting [TS]

00:01:11   place to be and I thought that was an interesting point so I wanted to point [TS]

00:01:15   that out what we having trouble a show thinking about which iOS release was [TS]

00:01:20   like big or small electronic list off the major features like I don't know if [TS]

00:01:24   I buy that theory because it just doesn't seem to me that there has been [TS]

00:01:30   that kind of kid stylist but it could be that I'm just not paying enough [TS]

00:01:34   attention but like the fact that we were trying to think about was that a big [TS]

00:01:37   release what was in that one either we just told him that bad memories remember [TS]

00:01:41   was in them but they have all seem pretty even to me at this place [TS]

00:01:44   certainly none of them we're we're like a snow leopard to know you know that's [TS]

00:01:48   kind of feel like I i think im going on I can't really point to any I was [TS]

00:01:51   released and say oh that one was the 16 most of the problems and added a new [TS]

00:01:55   API's but didn't change much the user may be six but I wouldn't say it's [TS]

00:02:00   enough to really establish a pattern I mean at least [TS]

00:02:03   stan has had now to takes into talks at the white leopard Snow Leopard why [TS]

00:02:08   mountain lion and that that those four releases I think a very clearly followed [TS]

00:02:12   that [TS]

00:02:12   but even before that they didn't really good expert today that's why I think [TS]

00:02:18   we're still in that early period of Iowa swear it's like really simple not all [TS]

00:02:25   the features a bunch of stuff doesn't work and then the ones that you have to [TS]

00:02:28   get out to sort of shore up the API for public use and then some major features [TS]

00:02:33   like a pretty much follows closely along with you know the temple now 10.1 and [TS]

00:02:40   like you know it was STK was just he was to point out yeah yeah and you know and [TS]

00:02:45   then three four and five roughly matching with you know Panther tiger and [TS]

00:02:50   leopard and six should have been at Snow Leopard but it wasn't because six [TS]

00:02:56   brought you know even more features and more new stuff it was definitely not a [TS]

00:02:59   snow leopard cub release so I still think we're in the early part of Iowa's [TS]

00:03:06   release like maybe this maybe seven will be the first like maybe something will [TS]

00:03:11   be the right after seven maybe eight will be something that's more tame or [TS]

00:03:16   whatever but it seems like all the rumors of seven that it's not going to [TS]

00:03:19   be a team release even if it's just visual stuff in the global stand out in [TS]

00:03:23   our mind as a lot when they rejected you I rearrange the absence and presence but [TS]

00:03:30   we'll see but I would still say there's definitely no no snow leopard Snow [TS]

00:03:34   Leopard and I was yet know the other interesting thing that somebody on [TS]

00:03:38   Twitter pointed out I don't have this at reply handy so I apologize to whoever [TS]

00:03:42   you are but they pointed out that none of us thought about searing when we were [TS]

00:03:45   trying to think of a kind of marquee features I'm different iOS versions in [TS]

00:03:49   in the three of us don't even think about Syria and I don't know what that [TS]

00:03:52   says but it's an interesting observation that obviously didn't cross my mind when [TS]

00:03:57   we were talking about serious because it was tied to the 40 S as a device mostly [TS]

00:04:07   for marketing type reasons you know because it was tied this device and that [TS]

00:04:11   was the release like it was more like a feature of that phone and all devices [TS]

00:04:16   from that point forward it was less of like a ok starting with iOS 5 everybody [TS]

00:04:20   gets this school thing that's something we haven't done in the max not like it a [TS]

00:04:24   lot time machine and say and if you want to use Time Machine you got a Mac the [TS]

00:04:27   about this year and would not fly as much and they they pulled it off with [TS]

00:04:31   the forests as a differentiator but it's it's why we don't associated with that [TS]

00:04:37   was the OS that seriously that was the phone that Siri [TS]

00:04:41   anything else on a few [TS]

00:04:44   whatever you think so right so one of the things I want to talk about today [TS]

00:04:51   was Marco you finished Reviver well maybe not finished but at least got to a [TS]

00:04:56   stopping point for now on your PHP framework and I didn't know if you had [TS]

00:04:59   anything to share about that and if not I'm asking other probing question but [TS]

00:05:04   how did that go I can't wait for the probing but title now we have we have a [TS]

00:05:11   kind of a kind of real show but in the chat now so if the peacekeeping so I've [TS]

00:05:17   had this PHP framework that I've built let me know long time ago we built [TS]

00:05:23   tumbler with it and before time there we built David night David Carpenter I [TS]

00:05:27   built some client applications back near consultants before David decided to [TS]

00:05:32   start tumblr so we had this PHP free markets it's a basic MVC framework and [TS]

00:05:39   the reasons we rode our own back then were that we had tried rails and we have [TS]

00:05:43   tried cake for PHP and back then this isn't like 2006 we didn't I didn't and I [TS]

00:05:52   convince David I didn't like all the behind the scenes magic that frameworks [TS]

00:05:57   did unexpectedly like some magic is good and some magic is helpful I got like my [TS]

00:06:04   my fear was more than I wanted the framework to be more like libraries and [TS]

00:06:09   less like at the time what was trendy for quote frameworks which is they would [TS]

00:06:14   do so much for you and you end so it was it was hard to tell like if you were [TS]

00:06:19   seeing like a certain header being said are certain behavior certain filtering [TS]

00:06:23   or certain bugs it was hard to find where the heck that was coming from the [TS]

00:06:27   code and this is especially problem in Rails because of Ibiza mix ins and and [TS]

00:06:33   that becoming especially trendy in 2006 [TS]

00:06:36   so everyone was kind of overusing them and so was very very much like [TS]

00:06:40   categories and cocoa it was very very hard to find the code you were looking [TS]

00:06:47   for [TS]

00:06:47   to manage like what was going on because everything was there was so much magic [TS]

00:06:50   happening all the time with everything so my theory was I wanted something that [TS]

00:06:56   could provide helpful features like a library but where I knew everything that [TS]

00:07:01   was going to happen and what was not going to happen so it was very clear to [TS]

00:07:05   me [TS]

00:07:06   ok me as the as the person writing this action of this model what is my [TS]

00:07:10   responsibility what will happen and what won't and so we're on our own very basic [TS]

00:07:15   framework with some lessons from rails some lessons from ourselves some lessons [TS]

00:07:20   from cake and and we basically mature that into tumblr as time went on and on [TS]

00:07:27   and it is BSD licensed but it's not just about anywhere so our clients from [TS]

00:07:33   before tumblr they all have a copy a few programs here and there have a copy I [TS]

00:07:38   have a copy in stripper who is running on a copy and magazines gonna cut it [TS]

00:07:42   does not really open source framework but it would be open source if it ever [TS]

00:07:46   actually got out no legally so what I did when I left tumblr I forked it and [TS]

00:07:53   so tumblr continue doing their own thing with it and Tumblr did tons of changes [TS]

00:07:58   to it because they had to cuz they grew like crazy and they had a bill in like [TS]

00:08:03   automatic starting support stuff like that all sort stuff I've never seen and [TS]

00:08:07   Instapaper I don't have to do anything to it so mostly just SAT there and I [TS]

00:08:13   exchanged a few things here and there but I didn't really pointing out so it [TS]

00:08:17   still had a whole bunch of stuff from like halfway through tumblr scaling that [TS]

00:08:20   I had put in there and it was also based on PHP 5.1 and 5.2 even the most in 5.3 [TS]

00:08:28   the late static binding support in 5.3 that was added which makes data classes [TS]

00:08:34   work and useful way for the first time [TS]

00:08:36   yeah like I don't know why didn't have that in the beginning anyway that's [TS]

00:08:40   that's a little too specialized for the show [TS]

00:08:43   I was able to modernize the framework if I wanted to but in strippers code base [TS]

00:08:49   that point was big enough that it was kind of unwieldy to do that and it was [TS]

00:08:53   really ever worth my time to do that having just the paper though I am honest [TS]

00:08:58   I wanted to start being more web stuff in the future and I wanted to have a [TS]

00:09:04   really solid foundation for doing that and I thought about using other language [TS]

00:09:08   but as we've discussed in the show before much too many people's irritation [TS]

00:09:12   I don't think Ruby or Python really provide enough of the benefit of a PHP [TS]

00:09:20   if you add that if you're already an expert in PHP that you really need to [TS]

00:09:22   become an expert on one of those I think you can pick any of any of those three [TS]

00:09:25   become an expert in one of them and you're pretty well said you don't really [TS]

00:09:29   need the other ones that you know if you really want to learn a lot more [TS]

00:09:32   languages for other reasons like personal development or market value [TS]

00:09:36   whatever else but if you're if you're short on time and if you don't really [TS]

00:09:39   wanna be learning tons languages and he would rather take one master that one I [TS]

00:09:43   don't think you to master more than one of those three and I think the at the [TS]

00:09:47   alternatives things like node I would be looking at those in probably the future [TS]

00:09:52   but I think they're a little bit early right now so I'd rather not go that way [TS]

00:09:55   right now so I figure you know what PHP is great for me I know a lot of people [TS]

00:09:59   hate it but PHP is very good for me I know it extremely well and I know how to [TS]

00:10:05   scale it I know how to run it very cheaply in very easily with very little [TS]

00:10:09   effort and very few 3 a.m. wake ups for the census for the system in which is [TS]

00:10:13   usually me and and so I decided you know there's nothing really inherently wrong [TS]

00:10:19   with PHP that overcomes the barrier for me to to master something else to this [TS]

00:10:25   degree when I don't really want to be riding big web services as the only [TS]

00:10:31   thing I do you know if that was the only thing I was going to do that would be [TS]

00:10:35   fine I would be very very happy with it but I would learn lots of different [TS]

00:10:39   languages and pick the best one and really dive deeply into that one but for [TS]

00:10:44   me the web service and action is a great blog post by Brent Simmons that while [TS]

00:10:48   I'm rambling on you guys should read this and I'll talk about it a little bit [TS]

00:10:55   for me making web services is really a supporting role to what I really want to [TS]

00:10:59   do which is kinda making whole products they're mostly acts like Instapaper [TS]

00:11:06   pretty much was that the newspaper web service was was very low needs and I've [TS]

00:11:11   devoted very little to it for good and bad because I really want to do is [TS]

00:11:16   working on the app and the Apple is that like the premier experience well [TS]

00:11:20   whatever else I do in the future is probably gonna be that same way you know [TS]

00:11:23   I have mentioned in the past few prototypes of things that I'm trying to [TS]

00:11:27   figure out what I wanna do next with and they all have web components and but all [TS]

00:11:32   the components are are relatively unimportant compared to the at and so i [TS]

00:11:38   dont for me it's not worth like learning entire new Web languages and mastering [TS]

00:11:42   those platforms and and learning the hard way how to scale the mall and spend [TS]

00:11:47   all that time and stress on that when I'd rather be putting effort into the [TS]

00:11:51   apps and just the website you know I don't need the website to be to be my [TS]

00:11:56   experimental playground so so I decided this was a great time to modernize my [TS]

00:12:06   frameworks like I had only the magazine using it and nags and code base is very [TS]

00:12:10   very small so I thought this is a great time to modernize it when I really need [TS]

00:12:15   those a test and that way I can kind of read the test app as I modernize it so I [TS]

00:12:19   know what I'm breaking I know how I'm breaking it and what it needs to be and [TS]

00:12:23   I can kind of play with the API's as I'm making them and as I'm changing them to [TS]

00:12:28   stealing ok what works what doesn't what ends up being more or less elegant than [TS]

00:12:32   I expected [TS]

00:12:33   etcetera so my goal here is also open source framework now it's to finally [TS]

00:12:40   make it so incredibly different from what tumblr is running that I mean [TS]

00:12:46   legally I could have done it already but like you know I was always a little [TS]

00:12:51   afraid to release the framer that runs tumblr what if somebody find some [TS]

00:12:55   security problem and exploited against tumblr I would really not feel good [TS]

00:12:59   about that I was always very afraid about that [TS]

00:13:02   that I'm less afraid but it's my own thing i atleast know that ok I'm willing [TS]

00:13:08   to do that to myself I'm not unless less happy by doing that to somebody else mrs [TS]

00:13:12   somebody's biggest tumblr so I thought I would love to open source this and I [TS]

00:13:19   would love to modernize it and I would love to also write the sponsor tracking [TS]

00:13:23   system that I've been means do for market or four months as the way as I [TS]

00:13:28   track my sponsors from archive.org is this giant spreadsheet that sucks and [TS]

00:13:33   it's so it's so human based and error-prone and it's always it always [TS]

00:13:39   freaks me out what if I booked the wrong spot you know what I publish something [TS]

00:13:42   from the wrong day long week what if I i think is sponsored hasn't paid but they [TS]

00:13:47   have or vice versa [TS]

00:13:49   like you know what if I type and number wrong if I instant typo and something is [TS]

00:13:53   really messed up so that I needed something better than a spreadsheet to [TS]

00:13:58   manage that I also want to start addition to having sponsorships for this [TS]

00:14:04   show that had to manage ok we have we sell sponsorships for this at another [TS]

00:14:08   property suspension for so initially started out in the table in my [TS]

00:14:12   spreadsheet that was very similar to the first table but then it to build on [TS]

00:14:16   things like you know we all we all split the money that comes in so I had to [TS]

00:14:21   build in how to pick how do you know I take the money and I have to pay you [TS]

00:14:24   guys out your inner portions of it so I have to you know that that's another [TS]

00:14:28   layer on top of this that is error-prone and could be messed up and starts really [TS]

00:14:34   pushing the boundaries of what spreadsheets can do gracefully i mean [TS]

00:14:37   they can do it in many non graceful ways but what they can do gracefully his you [TS]

00:14:42   know this is kind of a bad thing for them and then what really killed it is I [TS]

00:14:48   wanted all three of us to be able to log in and look at sponsors and sell [TS]

00:14:54   sponsorships and so we needed multi-user access you can go Google Docs but then [TS]

00:14:59   it's just there's the more layers you add to the spreadsheet that the crappier [TS]

00:15:03   that solution becomes and the more likely it is like exponentially more [TS]

00:15:06   likely it is that something will go wrong at some point and that's really [TS]

00:15:10   bad so I decided [TS]

00:15:14   let's build this let's build a system and that's a perfect test case app for [TS]

00:15:20   my new framework of a new version of this framework which is almost [TS]

00:15:25   completely rewritten turns out and its way smaller framework and my goal is to [TS]

00:15:31   open source both the framework and this example project of my invoicing system [TS]

00:15:36   fairly soon so you guys have anything to say after that massive delay 23 minutes [TS]

00:15:45   in the idea but I'll give John a chance because I have a comparatively much [TS]

00:15:50   shorter monologue [TS]

00:15:52   I'm looking at your notes I know what you're gonna ask him and it's exactly [TS]

00:15:55   the same thing that i'm gonna go ahead and go for you the notes that apparently [TS]

00:16:01   Casey and I use but Marco shot I got it was it was a micro get oh yeah that's [TS]

00:16:07   where mine is so since I'm talking I will go ahead and ask by telling a very [TS]

00:16:11   brief story so few days back [TS]

00:16:12   Marco sends John an email saying hey this is up here's where you can go and I [TS]

00:16:19   load the URL and all I see is a text form and a button and the tax form says [TS]

00:16:25   give me your email address and then login and I think to myself this is [TS]

00:16:31   weird I haven't created a user account or knowingly anyway I haven't given him [TS]

00:16:37   a password of any sort of what's going on so I enter my email address I hit the [TS]

00:16:42   button and next thing I know his fancy Marquez fancy sponsorship checker says [TS]

00:16:47   okay look at your email you'll get a login URL there in so sure enough [TS]

00:16:51   instantly I look at my email and there's a email from Marcos fancy app thing and [TS]

00:16:58   it says here click this link and you can get logged in and that's exactly what [TS]

00:17:01   happened and so it was a very different and interesting way to handle user [TS]

00:17:07   authentication and authorization always get the A's wrong but handle locking in [TS]

00:17:12   without me ever giving him a password so in summary my question to you Marco and [TS]

00:17:17   John feel free to jump in and why do you keep passwords so much [TS]

00:17:20   does the same thing on the magazine site which I'm assuming you did this i I have [TS]

00:17:27   the you know when I saw it I immediately knew the years of the same time as the [TS]

00:17:30   magazine insiders seem like it [TS]

00:17:32   most insanely good to ya and I don't like either I complained to my wife that [TS]

00:17:37   he still in this thing without password again another one of my first the first [TS]

00:17:42   things first interaction I had with you and your products online was when I [TS]

00:17:45   first signed up for Instapaper and back then you didn't need a password for [TS]

00:17:48   Instapaper which was awesome and I love it not like not like this you just like [TS]

00:17:52   literally didn't need a password so for the first whatever was year or two years [TS]

00:17:55   or however long you let us not have passwords anybody could have seen my [TS]

00:17:59   Instapaper leagues I don't care wasn't anything secret there I just love not [TS]

00:18:03   having the password remember I just had to remember my username and there was no [TS]

00:18:07   answer I didn't care that was totally insecure fine go ahead I guess I could [TS]

00:18:12   have used that to start adding stuff to make the paper and then you have the [TS]

00:18:15   option to edit passwords of someone found it started using it and erased all [TS]

00:18:18   my side like art final a passport so I'm all thumbs up for not having a pass Berg [TS]

00:18:24   but thumbs down for every time I log in sending me an email with the link is [TS]

00:18:29   first of all I can you first of the magazine there was like male backlog [TS]

00:18:33   nothing is more frustrating that wanting to get into something and not being able [TS]

00:18:36   to because your mail hasn't arrived yet it was a long time since this is not [TS]

00:18:41   your fault it's not on the receiving end you know it's email store-and-forward [TS]

00:18:45   like it could be not in your control that I'm sitting there could be great I [TS]

00:18:49   refresh button trying to rate from I think the camp and the second thing is [TS]

00:18:52   this is really mostly I was his fault of the city the environment you're in I use [TS]

00:18:56   the Gmail app on iOS and when the email comes to delink on it I can't tap that [TS]

00:19:02   link because then that will open in the Gmail outs built-in browser and I'll be [TS]

00:19:06   logged in there in some sort of you know right hand side navigation pane to the [TS]

00:19:10   Gmail app but I'm not logged in Mobile Safari and that link is now dead because [TS]

00:19:14   I think you kill them off after they could use our pass right and so now I [TS]

00:19:19   have to go back to the site [TS]

00:19:20   make an email me another link remembered whole tap and hold on let me copy copy [TS]

00:19:24   the URL they gonna Mobile Safari then paste under thing and then use it in [TS]

00:19:28   over there so I'm I do not find the user experience of this password list thing [TS]

00:19:35   agreeable [TS]

00:19:37   it's funny because I don't have any problem with the password lists idea in [TS]

00:19:44   principle but I T was likely to have to wait for darn email to come in and in [TS]

00:19:49   retrospect thinking about it more actually think by and large this isn't a [TS]

00:19:52   bad set up and it strikes me as a and I'm not a security minded [TS]

00:19:57   oil bearing nut job but it strikes me as though it's a pretty good setup the same [TS]

00:20:02   is it the same as using a password because if you have access to my email [TS]

00:20:05   account passwords don't matter and if you have access to my email to counter [TS]

00:20:08   this thing customers don't matter is that a security thing with any lesser [TS]

00:20:11   more secure [TS]

00:20:12   well it isn't one way and that is that you can't get somebody's password cuz [TS]

00:20:17   they don't have one the only way to login is by having access to their email [TS]

00:20:21   you the password for their email address and he was moving you know moving to [TS]

00:20:27   know from your site to their you know that's a little bit better this is [TS]

00:20:31   especially so many emails have to factor now exactly took the words right out of [TS]

00:20:34   my mouth should have superior support Google login and I can use my existing [TS]

00:20:40   to factor to get into your site [TS]

00:20:43   yea well obviously you're probably thinking about it like this everyone [TS]

00:20:51   always wants to solve the problem of identity on the web because it's such a [TS]

00:20:55   pain in the butt no matter what you do and there's just no good solution [TS]

00:20:59   everything has tradeoffs in detroit also this one or just a different set of her [TS]

00:21:02   office and it but I find it particularly special for the magazine like I i [TS]

00:21:07   subscribe to the magazine I get in the iOS App occasionally run over wanna read [TS]

00:21:11   it on the web thing and inevitably I somehow find that I'm using a browser on [TS]

00:21:14   a machine that doesn't have the right cokie and I gotta go through the email [TS]

00:21:17   thing just that that tiny delay makes me unhappy I rather liked you know auto [TS]

00:21:23   fill my password is remember one password or use your some other means [TS]

00:21:26   that I can get myself logged in to read the magazine actually telling the sign [TS]

00:21:32   up for the magazine subscriber you should do like no I do just show me the [TS]

00:21:35   article [TS]

00:21:37   year I know but it works [TS]

00:21:42   causing my cookies and web development of some browsers and I'm constantly [TS]

00:21:46   wiping cookies and doing private browsing and good I don't know maybe I [TS]

00:21:50   just have to spread maybe it's like to factor where I had to have some sort of [TS]

00:21:53   ramp-up period where I spread the little the authentication tokens to all of my [TS]

00:21:58   browsers and all my jars as we call them back in the day but it hasn't happened [TS]

00:22:03   yet again Casey I mean to be honest I don't have a whole lot air I don't mind [TS]

00:22:10   it nearly as much as John does but I'm not nearly as much corruption apparently [TS]

00:22:14   I think it's it's interesting because we all hate passwords we all want them to [TS]

00:22:20   go away but no obviously nobody's really crack that nut on what the right answer [TS]

00:22:24   is an end for me since this is a site that I'm not gonna look at every single [TS]

00:22:28   day I don't find it as as egregious pain in the butt but with that said it was [TS]

00:22:34   something that I used frequently I think I would trying to just as annoying as [TS]

00:22:39   john doe's so yeah I think it's a very hard problem in the magazine I i never [TS]

00:22:44   to this and Instapaper the magazine was the first thing I did was publicly and [TS]

00:22:47   any i mean and the way it works in case in case someone is still behind us it [TS]

00:22:52   basically treats every log in like a password reset where you say you want to [TS]

00:22:57   login type in your email address and email you a link with a with a single [TS]

00:23:00   use hash on it and that then the apt read that has for a long until you're [TS]

00:23:05   logged in and you know it's like a password reset where you don't even set [TS]

00:23:10   the new password is logged in and it's it's interesting it solves a very [TS]

00:23:17   similar to insta papers original no password [TS]

00:23:22   accounts at all it solves some problems but it creates other problems and so I'm [TS]

00:23:29   not sure if it's a net win in general I think you can look at you know where the [TS]

00:23:34   use of here which is kinda like an admin panel I think admin panels and kind of [TS]

00:23:39   internet type thing where security is needed anything like that we're like [TS]

00:23:44   it's not the general public having to log in [TS]

00:23:48   and you don't have a ton of people using the Gmail app on their phone I know how [TS]

00:23:51   to copy links and stuff like that like situations like that I think it's a [TS]

00:23:57   great solution I think that's why I will probably do this for every admin panel [TS]

00:24:02   that I ever do again because it's it's so much more secure than just having [TS]

00:24:07   some kind of admin password up there and it's it's great for that and I was what [TS]

00:24:14   makes you think is more securities I can see I think it's better from your [TS]

00:24:17   perspective as a person running the service because you don't have to store [TS]

00:24:19   passwords and if you don't have to start passwords that means the pressure is off [TS]

00:24:22   you to keep security and you know all that dozens of whatever but I don't know [TS]

00:24:29   if that's better for the people who are using the product because as far as [TS]

00:24:33   they're concerned it's your responsibility to make sure the password [TS]

00:24:36   version of the best result can now make sure you you know you be gripped the [TS]

00:24:41   slower setting another whole crazy stuff like that I think this makes definitely [TS]

00:24:46   makes it better for you writing this service but as a user of the service I [TS]

00:24:49   don't see any security advantages from my perspective it is slowdowns well I [TS]

00:24:54   think the security advantages that my service now becomes as secure as your [TS]

00:24:59   email which is probably more see which you know given that most people use [TS]

00:25:03   webmail for their own email addresses are not for work with most people use [TS]

00:25:07   webmail and most webmail services are are really locking down the security [TS]

00:25:11   really well i think thats I don't think it's that big that bad everything to [TS]

00:25:16   reliable as you said most things are only as secure as your email at most [TS]

00:25:21   anyway cuz you can always do a password reset so you know if I would if I were [TS]

00:25:26   to do any kind of set your own password for this even if I would add two factors [TS]

00:25:32   I think if I have some way to you need to use your email addresses are reset [TS]

00:25:37   mechanism for the most part unless I have my own two factors thing which is [TS]

00:25:42   pup it was possible but I think that would be even more overkill if you don't [TS]

00:25:46   like having to wait for an email and click link you're gonna hate to factor [TS]

00:25:49   but if your gonna delegated authentication to someone else was like [TS]

00:25:52   your delegating too are you know provider why not like literally [TS]

00:25:55   delegated authentication to someone else and do what the sites do it [TS]

00:25:58   you pick one that you decide to be blessed which is fine for him inside are [TS]

00:26:01   you have three buttons a login with your Facebook ID Open ID and all those cases [TS]

00:26:06   your delegating the authentication to an external service but then you don't have [TS]

00:26:10   to deal with it at all except for writing implication of things in a min [TS]

00:26:13   page it's ok well you can't log in with Facebook and you can't log in with [TS]

00:26:18   OpenID login with Google you know like you can you can limit your options [TS]

00:26:22   first of all this is simpler and easier for everybody because they see the big [TS]

00:26:26   the big problem with those Login with Facebook or Twitter or whatever with [TS]

00:26:30   those things and OpenID which is itself a massive trade record of normal person [TS]

00:26:35   usability it even for kickers ability open ideas is a mess but I mean look at [TS]

00:26:40   stackoverflow they had they they were OpenID only for the first few years of [TS]

00:26:44   their life and works well but the problem was even with that extremely [TS]

00:26:50   nerdy audience it was still a major problem I think the the environment is [TS]

00:26:55   got not only the team that tonight [TS]

00:26:58   doesn t Springside and idk when it offered as an option but I just created [TS]

00:27:02   my own account he is the major problem with those kind of things were you can [TS]

00:27:06   say log in with OpenID or with Facebook or Twitter the main problem is that [TS]

00:27:10   every time you go back to this Site you have to remember which one you login [TS]

00:27:13   with the first time that's why I was saying just offer one like tournaments [TS]

00:27:16   are you just pick one that's what I do its your email address I don't know when [TS]

00:27:22   I go to the T spring site I click the button that says login with Google [TS]

00:27:26   doesn't do anything further because I've already done the thing once when I go to [TS]

00:27:29   your side every time I have to click and go get the email but when you go back to [TS]

00:27:35   the tee spring site in a year and you haven't used it in an entire year and [TS]

00:27:39   you go back here and it's one of my login with which one was it you know [TS]

00:27:44   it's it's a problem that create support emails like crazy you would not believe [TS]

00:27:47   how much support that generation you have that kind of option but again for [TS]

00:27:50   an inside support as well sure but for I would also argue that freedom in sight [TS]

00:27:56   like there there's really no benefit to doing that your way inside of my way for [TS]

00:28:02   an admin site because either way you're like [TS]

00:28:06   you're likely to hit a small delay sometimes either way you know if if [TS]

00:28:10   you're saying log on my Google account [TS]

00:28:12   might be one or you might have to rely into your Google account might have been [TS]

00:28:17   too long since you've last time out like if you're making your cookies last [TS]

00:28:22   four-year whatever that means anyone who you know find someone doesn't like it [TS]

00:28:27   but if I log in I have to remember that if I log in a strange machine I have to [TS]

00:28:31   make sure that I get rid of that so that that person can perpetually log in as me [TS]

00:28:35   because now that the cookie and I mean whereas with your delegating entirely to [TS]

00:28:39   an external service all the management of revoking access and timing out and [TS]

00:28:43   whatever is on the external surface right yeah but but also like it [TS]

00:28:50   the extra level of complexity of dealing with someone else a service for this it [TS]

00:28:54   adds almost as many annoyances and flaws and support headaches as doing it the [TS]

00:29:00   way I'm doing it with emails that that's what is it what is it been like for the [TS]

00:29:04   magazine was like this is a bad example history and whatever but it's like the [TS]

00:29:09   magazine's many many more people i said im going to be compared to what you [TS]

00:29:14   haven't implemented like you know login with your Google account as well [TS]

00:29:19   what has that been like you mentioned you mentioned the copy and pasting from [TS]

00:29:23   the Gmail app order is that just because I mentioned to do actually that's [TS]

00:29:26   actually I should probably use Gmail some point in my life but now with the [TS]

00:29:33   magazine it's it's been interesting this right I'm not sure I would use it again [TS]

00:29:39   for like a big consumer facing thing at least not yet because the main problem [TS]

00:29:44   is that when you have a username and password you can enter those no matter [TS]

00:29:51   where you are no matter what Apple context you're in you can enter those [TS]

00:29:55   immediately as you say you do not have an account alleged be logged in as long [TS]

00:30:00   as you know the password and yet as people like us use one password and [TS]

00:30:03   generate long-term garbage so for us a little more complicated but most people [TS]

00:30:06   don't do that unfortunately so the big problem is first of all your time [TS]

00:30:12   something to email delivery which is similar to tyson to someone else's [TS]

00:30:16   account their opportunities to go wrong or to be delayed [TS]

00:30:19   aid and email delivery can be somewhat assumed to occur you can generally [TS]

00:30:25   assume that an email will usually get there there of course complications [TS]

00:30:29   there but usually Cancino get there but you can't guarantee is it an email to [TS]

00:30:34   get there quickly because there's things like greatest thing and all sorts of [TS]

00:30:39   weird antispam measures and server configurations and everything that will [TS]

00:30:44   frequently delayed message by like a half hour or three hours from the first [TS]

00:30:49   time hearing from you or something so that becomes harder when you say alright [TS]

00:30:53   login click here to get an email in two seconds [TS]

00:30:56   well that's great if it comes in two seconds every time but it doesn't always [TS]

00:30:59   come to do seconds for most people and there's like the one percent that it [TS]

00:31:03   doesn't come in two seconds for and they get upset and and the email your support [TS]

00:31:06   and there's really no way for you to do anything about that quickly and I keep [TS]

00:31:10   entering their email address and click on the button again and again queuing up [TS]

00:31:13   seventeen and evaluating their previous 10 minutes right click the third one [TS]

00:31:18   that came not realizing that it was invalidated when you sent the eighth one [TS]

00:31:21   exactly so so it you know it's not perfect in that regard and also you know [TS]

00:31:27   what I this is actually one of the last building codes I talked about when I [TS]

00:31:32   made the magazine how in an effort of her with the goal of simplicity I wanted [TS]

00:31:38   it to have no settings in the app is no setting screen like to have everything [TS]

00:31:42   just be available in the interface with no gear icon with the settings screen on [TS]

00:31:47   it you know I didn't want to some big long list of checkboxes are ever going [TS]

00:31:50   to be very very simple and the problem was that to avoid having a setting [TS]

00:31:53   screen I had to make other dad design decisions like how to logout from [TS]

00:31:58   Instapaper if he would logged into sensitive to it that they were there [TS]

00:32:01   were other decisions ahead to make that were bad decisions in order to support [TS]

00:32:05   this one thing I thought was a good decision and so that the login later the [TS]

00:32:11   password to login system that uses email is it has a few of those things like [TS]

00:32:15   there's a there's a few weird little stupid things that I had to do to make [TS]

00:32:19   that work that are bad design decisions even though the email thing i think is [TS]

00:32:24   overall a good one standing on its own so one of those things is when you when [TS]

00:32:30   you want to connect when you want to [TS]

00:32:33   think your account between the app and the website on your iOS device or when [TS]

00:32:38   you want to sync your website where you want to be like if you subscribed in the [TS]

00:32:43   app and you want to browse it on the website on the desktop or if you decide [TS]

00:32:49   that you want to read it in the ass communicating between the browsers and [TS]

00:32:53   in the website and Apple purchased thing in these three different places when you [TS]

00:32:59   have a password will be easy it would just be entered this user name and [TS]

00:33:03   password in the other place and you're logged in [TS]

00:33:05   done the way I do it though since there's no password is like for the apt [TS]

00:33:10   to register its subscription with the website I have the app compose an email [TS]

00:33:16   message with an attachment that encodes budget data and then it send it to my [TS]

00:33:21   server the server associate that with the email is sent [TS]

00:33:24   which had a problem with the email that you sent that from is not your primary [TS]

00:33:28   email address other problems with that I think I did that a few times I'm very [TS]

00:33:32   confused on launch because I don't use the email address I use for things [TS]

00:33:37   different than the email address I use as my like i club you know exactly and [TS]

00:33:43   thats I wouldn't say that's a common case but there's certainly enough people [TS]

00:33:47   who do that that it's problematic if you if you don't support that they expect [TS]

00:33:53   and so there's there's that issue that you know going that way in the other [TS]

00:33:57   direction I would like to know [TS]

00:33:58   log-in the website on your device to open this link that I'll mail to you and [TS]

00:34:02   then we'll send you like a the magazine app colon slash slash garbage URL to [TS]

00:34:09   open up in the iOS app to associate in the other direction and that's kind of [TS]

00:34:13   ugly and can have some of its own problems as well so you know i i had [TS]

00:34:18   this this technical need to associate these are catching these two places and [TS]

00:34:23   password really would have a lot easier [TS]

00:34:25   always comes out with the web service API is for iCloud authentication [TS]

00:34:29   response but yeah and so i think overall I I think the patent system it's it's [TS]

00:34:38   interesting and that's why that's why I did it interesting I i do think I'm [TS]

00:34:42   going to keep it for admin panel type stuff [TS]

00:34:44   I don't know if anything else with that as the main thing is you know because in [TS]

00:34:51   fact if people were if this was like 2005 still and most people are still [TS]

00:34:55   doing everything on their computers and you were looking into a website that [TS]

00:35:00   would actually make way more sense and it will be fine I would probably do it [TS]

00:35:03   no question now with everyone doing things on all these different types of [TS]

00:35:07   devices with all these different like sandbox siloed apps and everything and [TS]

00:35:12   everything is running full screen was no good multi tasking and iOS or no clear [TS]

00:35:16   indication that all these problems that actually now the system is less [TS]

00:35:21   practical than it would have been in 2005 and I i dont think going to do it [TS]

00:35:27   again for the main login for something and also another problem is that it [TS]

00:35:32   hasn't worked with people expect and because people are used to [TS]

00:35:37   username and password or email and password for you so that when you've put [TS]

00:35:41   something up there they don't expect even if it's simple to you and your mind [TS]

00:35:46   even if it's simpler they're thrown off for a second leading minute how do I do [TS]

00:35:51   this where we put the password I get it slows people down and people make [TS]

00:35:55   mistakes and the question themselves in the doubt themselves and that ultimately [TS]

00:35:58   can make all your goals were like maybe they don't finish sign up for maybe they [TS]

00:36:02   don't finish their shopping cart purchase or whatever so it's a hard call [TS]

00:36:06   if you want to deviate from the norm at something so simple as how do you log [TS]

00:36:10   into your site that you should use caution if you're deviating on the plus [TS]

00:36:16   side I have gotten almost zero support emails for password related or login [TS]

00:36:21   related anything the problem is you know if you know if you can't figure it out [TS]

00:36:25   you probably just give up but obviously I have no password reset requests which [TS]

00:36:31   any support person the most common request matter how prominent you make [TS]

00:36:35   that link of for a password click here to email address wrong there's the [TS]

00:36:39   Spoony precautions like [TS]

00:36:41   I don't get any of those for the magazine which is awesome so it does [TS]

00:36:45   save support by a dramatic amount but there are other problems with it that [TS]

00:36:50   will give me pause for using it in certain contexts anyway this absurd our [TS]

00:36:58   first sponsor today is not many vault go to Mac Mini vault dot com slash try this [TS]

00:37:06   is pretty cool nachman evil they're basically a Mac Mini Cooper locator and [TS]

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00:37:15   there have been in business since 95 1995 morning ISPs and hosting services [TS]

00:37:22   so they have a giant cabinet and a wire it to house a whole bunch of Mac minis [TS]

00:37:27   and all the level of efficiency in volume they're able to place your Mac [TS]

00:37:32   Mini the data center for much less than a standard colocation would cost the [TS]

00:37:35   plans start at just 30 bucks a month and you can use the Mac Mini for pretty much [TS]

00:37:40   anything you can think of me know it's a Mac you have control over it you can do [TS]

00:37:43   whatever you want with it you can use his party or development workflow for [TS]

00:37:47   development and testing you can even use it for web hosting file storage and if [TS]

00:37:52   you want you don't even have to use Mac OS 10 on it they leaving load Windows [TS]

00:37:55   Server on it or Linux if you if you request that and of course you can [TS]

00:37:59   access this Mac Mini from anywhere on the internet and see all the flexibility [TS]

00:38:03   that your own server provides you know 1 gigabit per second network connection [TS]

00:38:08   the data center is redundant and secure and there's helpful engineers on staff [TS]

00:38:12   as well as free hands-on hours and there's no charge to diagnose and [TS]

00:38:17   redeploy machines during the free hand on our pretty cool so you can send in [TS]

00:38:21   your Mac Mini where you can buy one directly from them and even have rental [TS]

00:38:25   options you can rent a Mac Mini so it's a lot like renting a dedicated server [TS]

00:38:29   somewhere you know low-cost enter their fantastic so anyway and they also have I [TS]

00:38:34   was really impressed I was browsing their stuff they have you can you can [TS]

00:38:37   add extra third-party RAM or like a Samsung SSD its way bigger than Apple's [TS]

00:38:42   cheaper so they have handled for you if you if you buy them that's pretty cool [TS]

00:38:46   you can actually check out a pretty nice machine there for less amenable to [TS]

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00:39:13   people who make instant cast they host their backend thing there and crashed [TS]

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00:39:22   previous sponsor of my site they use Mac Mini fault as part of its testing and [TS]

00:39:27   development environments that's pretty cool that I seventy Mac Mini's now over [TS]

00:39:33   900 pre-wired slots for the future they they are well set to expand greatly with [TS]

00:39:37   all of you going and creating accounts they're so good a Mac Mini vogue.com / [TS]

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00:39:48   Mini vault for sponsor 50% that is the new winner for largest percent yeah the [TS]

00:39:54   sponsor of the show 50% coming months about comments as well that that good [TS]

00:39:59   for them for really showing they mean they mean business [TS]

00:40:03   I wonder if the existence of the Mac Mini contributed to Apple's decision to [TS]

00:40:07   start to discontinue definitely like we have access to tech podcast that [TS]

00:40:12   accidental server hardware is I don't think they made the Mac Mini thinking [TS]

00:40:18   this is gonna write the data center but as soon as they made a machine that [TS]

00:40:20   shape people are like 600 of those and you know to you rack up the Mac Mini you [TS]

00:40:27   like when Steve Jobs introduced the Motorola ROKR phone that terrible iTunes [TS]

00:40:32   phone that came out before the iPhone and and you could tell when Steve [TS]

00:40:35   introduced that EA anger about us a while ago you could smell like he just [TS]

00:40:39   really did not like it he he did not like the product he didn't like that it [TS]

00:40:43   had to exist like you know the market was demanding something like that and so [TS]

00:40:47   they made it kind of reluctantly and he just kind of like you know shouted out [TS]

00:40:51   there and and was ok with it I think the Mac Mini was kinda like that for him [TS]

00:40:57   like I don't think he gave a crap about the Mac Mini [TS]

00:41:00   and obviously it's a very low priority for Apple most the time they hardly ever [TS]

00:41:05   update thing even when the other things going to do with the same CPU it's [TS]

00:41:10   obviously a low priority but they keep it around because they probably do some [TS]

00:41:13   good number of them but it's always kind of seemed like this product that they [TS]

00:41:17   reluctantly keeping their lineup because people do love it way more than Apple [TS]

00:41:22   seems to hook well jobs are probably sore about the cute things still has [TS]

00:41:26   like I dunno I made this machine and when it was much better looking in your [TS]

00:41:29   eyes didn't wanna its cool glass still 800 bucks and liners exam admit it you [TS]

00:41:41   know it's much too early it's true this one of those pricey didn't seem to have [TS]

00:41:43   super duper enthusiasm about but other I mean that's the weird thing like if the [TS]

00:41:48   company is not enthusiastic a product about a product but a certain subset of [TS]

00:41:52   the customers are and it's very clear that a certain subset of customers is [TS]

00:41:56   really interesting about the Mac many people who want us to come and data [TS]

00:41:59   centers and even I've seen people who just you know like users who have lots [TS]

00:42:03   of Max just need another Mac to just be an extra machine for back when exposed [TS]

00:42:09   to that goes to support distributed compile I haven't read the new version [TS]

00:42:14   that I know but I can always stop having a Mac Mini in the car to be a media [TS]

00:42:20   machine and just you know I just need another Mac for this other room so I was [TS]

00:42:23   getting many are using it as a server to attached storage doing stuff like that [TS]

00:42:27   so I still have that little machine even though Apple like it does not seem to be [TS]

00:42:33   that into it but you know everyone always thinks myself included you know [TS]

00:42:36   we thought a number of times in the past we found out this is gonna be the year [TS]

00:42:40   that killed a Mac Mini and it never gets killed it still it's still sitting there [TS]

00:42:44   even when it goes like I would like two years maybe without like them just go [TS]

00:42:49   down in price comes out of the shop still really expensive but usually goes [TS]

00:42:54   up by a hundred bucks yeah but it's funny I haven't for awhile to get people [TS]

00:43:00   use them as a cast as several hundred there's so many little things you do [TS]

00:43:03   with them so anyway thanks to them for sponsor Mac Mini vault dot com [TS]

00:43:10   so I I mentioned before the break I want to talk about this article by Brent [TS]

00:43:15   Simmons you as you get a chance to read it was rambling about various stuff [TS]

00:43:18   before during the day of course release candidate oK so it's called 30 minutes [TS]

00:43:25   to sink on an essential dot com weblog and we will high-speed weblog and we [TS]

00:43:30   will post it in the show notes I never see weblog and just made fun of Glen her [TS]

00:43:36   writing that I picked up stream but he also says capital webspace site and I [TS]

00:43:42   don't know I don't do that [TS]

00:43:44   climbing plants as a lot of things anyway so you know at least at least [TS]

00:43:52   vlog didn't catch on [TS]

00:43:54   we can at least be happy about that should also know what before we talk [TS]

00:44:00   about now they're talking about stupid word should it for a new media craft we [TS]

00:44:02   invented nerds I've heard a lot of discussion about the word podcast I [TS]

00:44:09   heard there's a great podcast called he called next market have to look this up [TS]

00:44:14   and this guy who does he's doing interviews about people in the pod [TS]

00:44:18   testing world talk about the business of podcasting and you know Leo Laporte [TS]

00:44:22   famously does not like the word podcast and use of the word NetCast to describe [TS]

00:44:26   what he does [TS]

00:44:27   damn benjamin has said he doesn't like it but he still uses it because although [TS]

00:44:31   he tries to do like internet broadcast I think there's there's been a lot of you [TS]

00:44:35   know a lot of people who are being in the podcast world have tried to use a [TS]

00:44:40   different word and I think what do you think of the word podcast I think it's [TS]

00:44:46   fair fairly terrible and it was super duper lucky that it caught on the way it [TS]

00:44:51   did because like Apple didn't call it you know it but it was so ride to [TS]

00:44:56   Apple's product the iPod there was like a happy accident like oh I guess we home [TS]

00:45:00   this space are named our products practically in it had never been [TS]

00:45:05   bothered by it enough to say you guys are wrong but it's never ever ever [TS]

00:45:09   bothered me in any capacity and I'm not the kind of person that says no [TS]

00:45:14   tumblelog over tumblr or [TS]

00:45:16   I might say photocopy I might say Xerox I might say tissue my might say kleenex [TS]

00:45:21   i know i never get mad and talk about any of those sorts of things are cast as [TS]

00:45:25   a lame where though I can see why people who broadcast like this it pigeon holes [TS]

00:45:29   you into like you make things that people listening to iPods or similar [TS]

00:45:33   devices and that is a narrow definition of what could possibly be the future of [TS]

00:45:38   broadcast the future of audio programming note I mean like that well [TS]

00:45:43   but for a while bloggers that kind of word you know for a while saying saying [TS]

00:45:48   that somebody else told you that you wrote for a blog that was an insult [TS]

00:45:54   about like blog has it as a useful definition podcast doesn't like blog if [TS]

00:45:59   you look up and something that tries to find a blog it's it's not going to its [TS]

00:46:03   not gonna ever called The New York Times blog because not like a personal single [TS]

00:46:07   voice publication time separated you know your stream of time separated post [TS]

00:46:12   not divvied up into sections through multiple authors over like a blog has is [TS]

00:46:16   distinct from you know just a website they're riding on the web [TS]

00:46:20   whereas podcast is all-encompassing if you make an audio program that's not [TS]

00:46:24   broadcast over analog radio but distributed through the internet instead [TS]

00:46:27   of a podcast and I think that's that's why people don't like it [TS]

00:46:32   CI I think I think podcasters don't like it I know people like us about how guest [TS]

00:46:38   podcasters don't like it because of the the the pretty bad connotation and has [TS]

00:46:44   of being low quality is everyone's her bad podcast before recorded by like you [TS]

00:46:49   know some people talking about their their built-in laptop mics for three [TS]

00:46:53   hours about nothing I guess the time that far from over telling you called [TS]

00:47:00   you think that's why we should get someone on here who objected to it is [TS]

00:47:04   like putting broadcaster by trade like you know whatever but like I mean now [TS]

00:47:10   well but like is it because of low quality because radio has terrible low [TS]

00:47:16   quality stuff like the guy was on at 2 a.m. for the college kids who are [TS]

00:47:19   broadcasting their students station like radio is filled with terrible [TS]

00:47:23   programming if you don't believe me I guess I just wake up in the night turn [TS]

00:47:26   on the radio there'll be something bring brought [TS]

00:47:29   many frequencies and it will not be high quality content but but it radio as he [TS]

00:47:34   gets slammed for that like oh that's okay it's you know it's an amateur who [TS]

00:47:37   granted because the airwaves are belong to all of us and are controlled by the [TS]

00:47:41   government and they did you out of love you still have student radio stations [TS]

00:47:44   barriers on the internet even more wide open and maybe maybe the total volume is [TS]

00:47:49   higher therefore the percentage of crap is higher as well but I really think [TS]

00:47:53   it's because it seems like it's as if every single website we had to be called [TS]

00:47:57   the blog and the New York Times didn't want to be on the web because they knew [TS]

00:48:00   they were not a blog but by putting something up to come to the New York [TS]

00:48:04   Times blog and I was like no it's it's you know it's getting written word [TS]

00:48:09   online we're not a blog like and even a podcast doesn't have the same [TS]

00:48:13   connotations it does it doesn't lessen that like you wouldn't think that if [TS]

00:48:18   you're if you'd fancy yourself as the audio equivalent of the new york times [TS]

00:48:21   you don't want someone calling you a podcast that's my impression but see [TS]

00:48:25   Casey I just I feel like somebody linked on Twitter today to some blog post [TS]

00:48:34   actually where somebody said that nerds ruin everything and I didn't even read [TS]

00:48:39   it because I could tell I feel like I could tell the gist of it within the [TS]

00:48:42   first couple census which was basically like people who are really passionate [TS]

00:48:45   about things and up over analyzing and ruining them entirely and I kinda feel [TS]

00:48:50   like that's what the word exactly when it comes to our podcast I just I don't [TS]

00:48:56   see why it's that offensive and i guess im not saying I'm right I'm not saying [TS]

00:49:00   you're wrong I just don't see what's so bothersome it's just a word to describe [TS]

00:49:04   something and candidly I have never really associated that term specifically [TS]

00:49:09   with iPods maybe that makes me hotter different or weird but i dont Associated [TS]

00:49:13   specifically with iPods just like one of you guys said I just associated with a [TS]

00:49:17   internet-based radio broadcast what happens to any word used anywhere and it [TS]

00:49:21   just becomes becomes the thing it is right but these people have objections [TS]

00:49:25   their objections we're in the early stages are not there now i make us [TS]

00:49:28   they're still doing it [TS]

00:49:29   still still going with NetCast now because that's just what they do with it [TS]

00:49:32   becomes it's almost like you know the Netcare slogan from leo has almost [TS]

00:49:36   become like a signature brand of his networks as far as I know he's the only [TS]

00:49:40   one using it right [TS]

00:49:41   yeah I think anybody else said we're doing an outcast they would think like [TS]

00:49:44   defense think he was ripping off Lee genesis of that was in the beginning to [TS]

00:49:50   like I don't want to be thought of as justice thing that people put on iPods [TS]

00:49:55   because the things that they claim that term know what I'm doing I am I want to [TS]

00:50:00   be a broadcaster and I want to have it and then a certain point just continues [TS]

00:50:04   but if you if you tell apart from the the world before podcast to now and he [TS]

00:50:11   want to start when I think he'll be less reticent to call what he does a podcast [TS]

00:50:16   I don't know maybe I'm kind of case honestly I think the word is a stupid [TS]

00:50:23   sounding word no question but I cast have two main problems and the 101 [TS]

00:50:31   problem as dan said in his interview on something else I can do it I forgot the [TS]

00:50:37   name of a dance that earlier this week how you know that one of the biggest [TS]

00:50:41   problem with podcasts is the the barriers involved in getting to them [TS]

00:50:47   like if you want to if someone has never listened to a podcast before and wants [TS]

00:50:51   to and hears about them want to get into them then they have to like first of all [TS]

00:50:56   someone to tell them that there was no one knows about them in the rest of the [TS]

00:50:59   world nobody knows what the crap podcast is and for the most part it's it's [TS]

00:51:05   pretty much out of the mainstream vocabulary and we have to find an apt [TS]

00:51:12   yet you have to have a smartphone for the most part or listen on your computer [TS]

00:51:15   which sucks if you have a smartphone have to find an app to download or two [TS]

00:51:19   to play podcast have to find the podcast within that app and you have to make [TS]

00:51:23   time to play and have to like here it somehow you put that audio somewhere [TS]

00:51:27   maybe you're listening to headphones but if you drive your car they need to look [TS]

00:51:31   at a Bluetooth connection on oxygen cable or something like that there's [TS]

00:51:34   technically accessing podcasts is [TS]

00:51:38   is has a lot of barriers to entry right now that's one problem and in the [TS]

00:51:43   everything everything is relative to the second problem [TS]

00:51:45   the reason podcasts are as popular as they are now is because the iPod lower [TS]

00:51:51   the barrier to entry below some critical threshold beyond which became possible [TS]

00:51:54   to be a thing that's true because before that it was like forget it and nobody is [TS]

00:51:59   gonna pull this off and the iPod in general made it possible for people to [TS]

00:52:03   take audio from the internet and put in a context where they're actually want to [TS]

00:52:07   listen to it so that was like the first hurdle and dance dissatisfaction with [TS]

00:52:12   the current ones like oh that's great and all it made podcast possible to be a [TS]

00:52:15   thing that normal people can enjoy but there's this next barrier of like if [TS]

00:52:19   you're interested in a television show you could you're much more likely to [TS]

00:52:22   have his coalition watching and tell your relative the name of that show with [TS]

00:52:27   an expectation that they will successfully and maybe it maybe a [TS]

00:52:30   network they will successfully be able to watch that show with no further help [TS]

00:52:33   from you right whereas if you tell him the name of podcasting never listen to [TS]

00:52:36   podcast they're not gonna make it [TS]

00:52:40   yeah yeah it's true I so would like something we are making progress there [TS]

00:52:44   but they're still like the next leap the next leap we can see what it should not [TS]

00:52:49   be it's it's great that it's possible for people to do it on XScale but we [TS]

00:52:53   want to go at 10 under times easier that's right still so to get there that [TS]

00:52:58   gets you know my second problem the second big problem podcasts is this [TS]

00:53:01   contest that their low quality but I think that's you know that's something [TS]

00:53:05   that bloggers had to wait out the internet had to wait out like that [TS]

00:53:10   that's something that every media has when its new that although the [TS]

00:53:13   mainstream of the established and established media of the previous types [TS]

00:53:17   all assume or say or you know outright outright defamed the new thing as as [TS]

00:53:23   being you know only for amateurs are inferior and mostly because a lot of [TS]

00:53:28   times the beginning they are a tell people how to do them well so I think I [TS]

00:53:36   think the word podcast is fine if we if we could pick a new one that'd be great [TS]

00:53:41   but we can't it's too late and I think people like Leo hussein NetCast or or [TS]

00:53:46   who make their own alternatives I think they're doing a disservice to the pod [TS]

00:53:50   testing world [TS]

00:53:51   by fragmenting this term because they even like no dance intensive internet [TS]

00:53:56   broadcast or something like that or or even internet radio internet radio shows [TS]

00:54:01   and I think the problem is that she me radio exists and that's something else [TS]

00:54:04   you know like like streaming radio shock jock a stations and stuff like that or [TS]

00:54:10   even radio like services like Pandora Spotify and Rdio I think those distort [TS]

00:54:16   the meaning of [TS]

00:54:17   if you tell somebody oh I usually get into internet radio shows you know they [TS]

00:54:21   might think of those things instead of podcast podcast has a very specific [TS]

00:54:25   meaning that is a very large category that is very distinct from those other [TS]

00:54:30   things and can't really easily be confused with them in the vocabulary so [TS]

00:54:35   I think I think we we have this word I think we're stuck with this word and I [TS]

00:54:40   think it's not that you know people would call them amateurish no matter [TS]

00:54:43   what you call them because their new still and and I think it's only a matter [TS]

00:54:49   of time just like what happened blogs it's only a matter of time before that [TS]

00:54:54   just becomes a normal word for people and they know what youre talking about [TS]

00:54:57   and it doesn't always have that negative connotation and it's happening more [TS]

00:55:01   slowly with podcasts because the podcasting medium as a whole is not [TS]

00:55:06   growing explosively as blogs did but it is growing more slowly and it still is [TS]

00:55:11   growing it still is seeping into the world and seeping into the mainstream [TS]

00:55:14   it's just you know it's not it's not exploding in the course of two years but [TS]

00:55:20   I think we just have to wait it out I think the Internet broadcasting thing [TS]

00:55:25   and those are the terms their stats still beats trying to corner on new word [TS]

00:55:29   like an outcast do like like that even though it may be confusing trying to [TS]

00:55:34   come up with the generic term for what you do that doesn't pigeonhole you under [TS]

00:55:37   podcast still beats trying to come up with things like that cast or internet [TS]

00:55:42   last Thursday making up some other where'd you know that's why I like [TS]

00:55:47   branding for Twitter because it's like oh well this is a new word that's made [TS]

00:55:50   up as for like the the popularity thing like the celebrities have arrived on [TS]

00:55:54   podcast like celebrities have podcast now so that that phase of the [TS]

00:55:59   has begun at least you know what the professionals are here but the thing is [TS]

00:56:03   in general they're not it's weird that they're not the radio professionals you [TS]

00:56:08   know I mean it's not like howard stern abandoned his radio show to help I'd [TS]

00:56:11   cast his own satellite radio right now so that might appear to be able see well [TS]

00:56:18   I'm like the people who showed up at like stand-up comedians television stars [TS]

00:56:22   people who are not trained as audio broadcasters but they're famous people [TS]

00:56:26   they so then you have you can get a podcast where famous person interviews [TS]

00:56:29   another famous person with that name recognition stuff but the thing I worry [TS]

00:56:32   about pot guesses the way we all listen to them hinges on these few [TS]

00:56:38   the mechanism by which they come to be like we get them under iPods or iPhones [TS]

00:56:44   and that relies on software created by our phone maker and you know like how [TS]

00:56:49   much of the podcast right now is entirely dependent on the fact that I to [TS]

00:56:52   that podcast on iTunes like say the next version iTunes come down [TS]

00:56:56   podcast are no longer there . they're gone then there would be this mad dash [TS]

00:57:00   to Google Reader thing to re-establish that infrastructure somewhere and we [TS]

00:57:04   just don't have already gone from from the app on iOS well you know me like you [TS]

00:57:10   can't you wouldn't be able to go into someplace like on your phone or on your [TS]

00:57:14   on your Mac or Windows PC are invariably any device you can go somewhere and [TS]

00:57:18   search based on the name of podcast even find the right search box you can type [TS]

00:57:22   in one of those facilities in a way like they were in the iTunes Store in there [TS]

00:57:26   was no iTunes directory for the media you had to find like a TPI them to find [TS]

00:57:30   this podcast and like get something that can read the field and had to use a [TS]

00:57:33   third-party feed reader and stuff like having that centralized clearinghouse [TS]

00:57:37   we rely on that so much because this infrastructure hasn't been built out and [TS]

00:57:41   like you said like all right fine what about when you gonna go in your car when [TS]

00:57:44   I have another seven infrastructure barriers to overcome of how do I get [TS]

00:57:47   this audio [TS]

00:57:48   got on my ipod on my phone but now listen to in my car by Carter says the [TS]

00:57:52   radio how to overcome that and it's it's a series of annoying barriers that are [TS]

00:57:57   preventing it when you really want to just be like someone mentions the name [TS]

00:58:01   of broadcast you know exactly when I type that name [TS]

00:58:04   you type in and then anywhere you are you gonna potential listen to audio you [TS]

00:58:07   can listen to that [TS]

00:58:08   thing and we are we are far from that yeah that's true I will give you that [TS]

00:58:12   but I think I think the key to all this is a smartphone I really do i mean i i [TS]

00:58:17   devote a lot of the last episode talking about this topic in particularly I think [TS]

00:58:21   that I think the smartphone is the default device to listen to things on [TS]

00:58:27   you know it used to be a part of your pocket they may be at work you do the [TS]

00:58:32   computer or you know at home may be used as some kind of steroid use disk or [TS]

00:58:35   something crazy like that but you know i i think it's very clear now that the [TS]

00:58:41   smartphone is the new media player and not just for portable anymore and I i [TS]

00:58:48   think it's going we're going to keep going in that direction where the [TS]

00:58:50   smartphone is going to continue to be the center of everything including by [TS]

00:58:54   the way including the the way that your car [TS]

00:58:58   not only integrated media but the layer car connects to the internet I really do [TS]

00:59:02   think that's gonna go through smartphone data plan that the phone is going to be [TS]

00:59:06   your your terminal and your modem and your media player to the world and and [TS]

00:59:12   everything will be just like Steve Jobs digital hub thing back you know fifteen [TS]

00:59:16   years ago whenever that was but now it's your phone and not your computer I tend [TS]

00:59:22   to think your right hand something you said a little earlier [TS]

00:59:25   implied a little earlier made me think and I'm gonna put your what you said and [TS]

00:59:28   put words in your mouth and I'm not going to stop talking so you can argue [TS]

00:59:31   with you had said or implied that that podcasting isn't really new anymore and [TS]

00:59:38   and obviously that this is a much more nuanced conversation that then I'm [TS]

00:59:42   giving the chance to respond to but I found that interesting because I've [TS]

00:59:45   actually had friends of mine after the call went to the fact that that I'm [TS]

00:59:49   podcasting now they they've said to me hey what does it take to do that cuz I [TS]

00:59:55   had no idea for podcast and I wanna do that what did you do and of course I've [TS]

00:59:59   said well marketed all the work not just sit here show up and act like a prima [TS]

01:00:02   donna but but all kidding aside that I've had people come out of the woodwork [TS]

01:00:06   inside my head really love to do my own podcast when I'm driving it is it's not [TS]

01:00:10   new in the sense that this is this thing is a medium has been going on for a long [TS]

01:00:14   time but I think it's kind of new in the sense that he poor start regular people [TS]

01:00:20   are starting to grasp this and are starting to wonder hey can I get a piece [TS]

01:00:23   of that pie and I don't mean financially just attention wise can I get a piece of [TS]

01:00:27   that pie and so I almost wonder for about to see a renaissance but but but a [TS]

01:00:33   newfound interest in podcasting we're in the same way everyone ended up with a [TS]

01:00:38   blog and now everyone has a Twitter account I don't literally mean everyone [TS]

01:00:43   but I wonder if a lot of what we would call regular people will end up having [TS]

01:00:48   podcasts and so all be talking to space nobody will be listening kind of [TS]

01:00:52   connected with blog infrastructure because I like like Squarespace right so [TS]

01:00:56   if someone ask that if someone asked me how I wanna have a podcast what i would [TS]

01:00:59   tell them at this point based only on my second hand knowledge of market doing [TS]

01:01:02   just like it seems like if you just get express pay site is pretty easy to get a [TS]

01:01:06   podcast up and running right and that's like the same thing with back when we [TS]

01:01:10   were blocking its like how I get a blog of you don't tell someone ok step one [TS]

01:01:14   get a shared hosting plans step to you want to tell them to go to edit edit [TS]

01:01:19   this page dot com over the old frontier thing like the one of the first sites [TS]

01:01:23   that you could you just go to the web page just edited right and across the [TS]

01:01:26   way it is now it was a gigantic explosion in the nahr-e consolidation of [TS]

01:01:30   all these web applications you tell anyone use go to Tumblr type in the [TS]

01:01:34   hostname you on any user name you want a password and click a button great your [TS]

01:01:39   blogging good good job by the equivalent of that for podcasting is more or less [TS]

01:01:43   here it seems like with pot with like this where space type thing but we [TS]

01:01:46   haven't seen a proliferation and Marco you set up with was basically that easy [TS]

01:01:50   you just go out there and have a podcast and any ideas where space has been a [TS]

01:01:58   sponsor the show for a long time and has future sponsorships and I we should [TS]

01:02:00   disclose that but yeah of course it's it's extremely easy there and they [TS]

01:02:04   aren't the people who make it easy I mean you can like I think word I don't [TS]

01:02:08   think wordpress.com which ones the one that host of our sites stock com I don't [TS]

01:02:14   think they offer this but there there's been a million podcast plugins for [TS]

01:02:19   WordPress over the years like you could you can pretty easily in lots of ways [TS]

01:02:23   where are we at the temblor phase of podcasting we're like if if if some [TS]

01:02:28   random person [TS]

01:02:29   block actually the reason the reason I would directly to tumblr is that would [TS]

01:02:32   say it's the easiest [TS]

01:02:34   that's basically as simple as it can possibly get like you type three things [TS]

01:02:38   and you are now and you're now blogger congratulation actually if I Easter a [TS]

01:02:42   long time ago [TS]

01:02:43   tumblr also supports podcast hosting if you host the files elsewhere I believe [TS]

01:02:48   if you anytime your site / podcast or maybe / podcast / RSS it will give you a [TS]

01:02:56   bit iTunes compatible podcast feed at any audio posts that are externally [TS]

01:03:02   hosted so try that anyway I built a long time ago never documented I don't think [TS]

01:03:08   but it probably it's probably still there but I think you know podcasting [TS]

01:03:15   inherently you know it's like like how truly easy people take good photos that [TS]

01:03:21   look kinda good but it's it's a lot harder to take good video I think [TS]

01:03:24   podcasting is kind of similar in that you know making a meeting in audio [TS]

01:03:29   production is inherently more work than blocking and it takes like to do it well [TS]

01:03:35   you need you to certain level of equipment you know you look good [TS]

01:03:39   microphone like there's there's there's a little bit more barrier just in in [TS]

01:03:43   realities of making this kind of media that that I don't I don't think we're [TS]

01:03:47   ever going to overcome some of those barriers certainly we're not going to [TS]

01:03:50   overcome the problem of of it being complex and an unusual to make a good [TS]

01:03:57   podcast is both good sounding and with with compelling content that's you know [TS]

01:04:01   that's always going to be every media is gonna have that challenge of equality [TS]

01:04:05   and an interesting this elephants but I don't think we're ever going to reach [TS]

01:04:10   the point of like Tumblr where you type in three things and you have a podcast I [TS]

01:04:14   don't think we're going to reach that I think we can get pretty close because [TS]

01:04:19   right now the main barriers to someone doing that would be you're not going to [TS]

01:04:22   have like a good microphone because computers don't come with but maybe the [TS]

01:04:25   the microphones your phone start getting better [TS]

01:04:28   like this is his voice recorder quality on your phone [TS]

01:04:33   good enough for wearing crazy headsets like Google foresees the most maybe that [TS]

01:04:38   would be sufficient likes of the audio quality thing might start taking care [TS]

01:04:41   itself the content problem but that's not funny in the block content problem [TS]

01:04:46   isn't solved a better blog just write you know what they feel like writing is [TS]

01:04:49   just like like Casey was the people who knows they're not looking to do anything [TS]

01:04:54   earth-shattering but they just feel like I can do that in my 10 friends could [TS]

01:04:58   listen to it I can write a blog I can have a tumblr blog and my ten friends [TS]

01:05:03   and my mom can look at it and that's enough for me and the podcast equivalent [TS]

01:05:07   to that and the barrier that is like your friends and your mom are not going [TS]

01:05:10   to go through the effort to figure out how to get your stupid podcast on to [TS]

01:05:12   their phone or ipod disastrous too much they'll visit here [TS]

01:05:16   tumblr page and look at the music thing you put in there are just look at your [TS]

01:05:19   last thing you posted to Facebook or whatever but podcaster still little bit [TS]

01:05:23   too much of a berry like they really want two guys podcast like it so much [TS]

01:05:27   easier to look at their blog postings it takes more time for the things you gotta [TS]

01:05:30   set it up and you know you have a subscription and automatically [TS]

01:05:33   downloading and how this podcast app for whatever let's talk about what did the [TS]

01:05:37   various branches were quite there yet and the other woman just might best be [TS]

01:05:42   inherited you can read too much faster than you can listen and people can talk [TS]

01:05:46   much more than making right that's yeah that's true then it's always gonna be a [TS]

01:05:49   problem with with audio and video the fix timescale media is that they're much [TS]

01:05:55   harder to skin than text and and so there's always gonna be limitations [TS]

01:05:59   there and and and inefficient season and just restrictions on how much time [TS]

01:06:04   attention people are willing to give to any way before we go on now it's been so [TS]

01:06:11   long before we go on our second sponsor an orphan sponsorship zone is returning [TS]

01:06:18   sponsor once again welcome back however as a sponsor however is a domain [TS]

01:06:22   registrar that doesn't suck and I mean that from the bottom of my heart I use [TS]

01:06:27   them myself they didn't tell me to say that I use them myself and I've used a [TS]

01:06:32   lot of domain registrars I've never found another one that I wanted to stick [TS]

01:06:37   with after after using and covers the monastic with they they really are great [TS]

01:06:43   I mean its first of all go to hover dot com slash ATP let them know that you [TS]

01:06:48   heard about this from here and go get I forgot I think it's 10 percent off if [TS]

01:06:54   you use that as your entry [TS]

01:06:55   point out that I don't have that in this script icon / ATP so basically they have [TS]

01:07:03   done at Taco dot com dot tv tons of different country club country code [TS]

01:07:07   top-level domains you can register with them they believe that everyone should [TS]

01:07:12   be able to take control of their online identity get your own domain and make it [TS]

01:07:16   really easy to do so and i've advocated for years don't use like a gmail address [TS]

01:07:23   as your email address [TS]

01:07:24   don't use Google+ site as as your identity on the Internet by your own [TS]

01:07:29   name and and do your own thing and make your identity they make it easier to do [TS]

01:07:32   exactly that and I mean just the fact their registry that doesn't suck that [TS]

01:07:36   should be enough reason right there you go try them out but occasionally more [TS]

01:07:40   reasons they have a very very clean well-designed control panel [TS]

01:07:43   it's very no lo has so low friction they even have this cool thing where they [TS]

01:07:50   will they have a call like a migration service isn't in my list but they have a [TS]

01:07:58   thing where if you're willing to give them your login information for your old [TS]

01:08:04   registrar they will go in there and migrate all your domain names to their [TS]

01:08:08   service for you to transfer domains can be a bit of a hassle they will do it to [TS]

01:08:14   mean value service it's really really cool I really do recommend them very [TS]

01:08:20   very much and I i can give you a whole list of what they told me to say here [TS]

01:08:23   but but they they really enjoyed the last time I just told you how I feel [TS]

01:08:27   about them and I'm doing that now because they're really hard is that good [TS]

01:08:31   domain registrar it's it's very very hard to find a good one and then they [TS]

01:08:36   really are fantastic so thank you very much to hover dot com dot com slash ATP [TS]

01:08:42   and is run by the way by the two cows people they've been in business since [TS]

01:08:46   the 1800's doing all sorts of kinky things so you know you can trust these [TS]

01:08:50   people they they really know what they're doing they've been around [TS]

01:08:53   forever they have everything rests on the reputation he built over the bill [TS]

01:08:57   for years so you know their their their customer service is fantastic they pick [TS]

01:09:01   up the phone I mean if you can imagine that you call somebody to pick up the [TS]

01:09:04   phone they actually do it [TS]

01:09:07   30 with them so ya gonna have a DICOM email forwards DNS all sorts of fun [TS]

01:09:14   stuff check them out [TS]

01:09:17   com slash ATP and thank you very much for supporting the show [TS]

01:09:22   yes so to add to that just a couple days ago my father was looking to register [TS]

01:09:25   domain and he's very technically savvy for someone who doesn't do this sort of [TS]

01:09:29   thing for a living but he doesn't know the ins and outs of denouncing those [TS]

01:09:33   sorts of things like that just go to however I have no time to deal with this [TS]

01:09:36   right now see if you can figure it out and if not let me know and like 20 [TS]

01:09:39   minutes later he said oh I've got my domain it's all in how it worked great [TS]

01:09:43   don't even bother calling you back I'm all good so it's really they're really [TS]

01:09:47   good so give me a shot [TS]

01:09:49   yeah definitely alright so moving on so I'd now I do still on top of this [TS]

01:09:56   article thirty minutes to sink what he basically says he he suggests a solution [TS]

01:10:05   that you know I cloud in its current form for developers as we talked about [TS]

01:10:08   before on this show and as many people talked about recently iCloud for [TS]

01:10:13   developers has been really a mixed bag [TS]

01:10:16   mostly bad and any kind of a database sync or any kind of complex sink for [TS]

01:10:23   apps with iCloud has been just tons and tons of problems from simply being not [TS]

01:10:29   functional to causing very difficult support problems too weird bugs and the [TS]

01:10:35   biggest thing being a total lack of control over what's going on because you [TS]

01:10:38   don't control iCloud as a developer and so will print suggest here is that Apple [TS]

01:10:46   should make rather than doing like that the current quote magic set up where you [TS]

01:10:52   basically say right here is my court date a database sync it and hope nothing [TS]

01:10:56   goes wrong which doesn't actually work in practice rather than doing that Brent [TS]

01:11:00   says Apple should have basically a kind of thing where you can define some [TS]

01:11:05   service i'd logic for them to execute on your behalf and the Akan talk to that [TS]

01:11:13   logic and it handles and most importantly and people can log into it [TS]

01:11:18   or you can log into it you can log into people's accounts from from your apt [TS]

01:11:21   manager and data stuff like that and they also would support things he said [TS]

01:11:28   support periodic tasks like pulling Twitter or RSS feed yourself like that [TS]

01:11:32   so and he also points out which we should point out also this is all very [TS]

01:11:37   very similar to a few systems already exist out there there seems like Heroku [TS]

01:11:44   which is kind of like a generic [TS]

01:11:46   hosting platform that is based on scalability automatically and stuff like [TS]

01:11:50   that is also Windows Azure mobile services which we should disclose the [TS]

01:11:54   sheet or sponsor of the show and brent has actually done promotional videos for [TS]

01:11:58   them and they do almost exactly what he's asking for it without the iCloud [TS]

01:12:02   authentication and integration but I think what what do you think of this [TS]

01:12:08   of of this proposal do you think it's realistic that first of all I think I [TS]

01:12:12   never will do it but you do you think this would be a good thing if they did [TS]

01:12:17   it I think Apple is two degrees removed from being able to pass anything like [TS]

01:12:22   this [TS]

01:12:23   like if you think of the companies that do do it like Google and Amazon the [TS]

01:12:27   first stage of getting to the point where you were even able to do this is [TS]

01:12:31   the company recognizes that one of the things they need to be really good at [TS]

01:12:36   his company is doing you know services in-house and that they can't do each one [TS]

01:12:42   as it kind of custom one off special snowflake what they need our [TS]

01:12:47   infrastructure tools to do that so the reason the Amazon buildup is [TS]

01:12:53   infrastructures we have to run amazon.com and it's actually pretty [TS]

01:12:56   popular website and we have scaling problems and we have these these [TS]

01:12:59   problems that are here so let's build ourselves tools to do that once you do [TS]

01:13:03   that you're like ok well we've built these tools internally that they're not [TS]

01:13:06   great but it's like it lets us and let us build amazon.com or let us build to [TS]

01:13:12   Google's stuff if we change this just a little bit and shape it up we can sell [TS]

01:13:18   this as you know ec2 or as Google AppEngine or whatever that's the second [TS]

01:13:24   part and once you want you know Apple doesn't even have that first part yeah I [TS]

01:13:27   think they're not yet able to [TS]

01:13:29   to they haven't yet recognized that internal infrastructure tools are [TS]

01:13:33   important enough to the company that they need to be is just as important as [TS]

01:13:36   like you know iOS or hardware design or silicon chips or whatever may be the [TS]

01:13:41   doing internally maybe they haven't figured out but that's that's what i [TS]

01:13:44   think is the main buried them doing this is they have nothing defend because as [TS]

01:13:47   anyone who'd write services offer knows you can't just say oh you guys write [TS]

01:13:52   some code will run on our service cause the first dude put in an infinite loop [TS]

01:13:56   goes I guess we need some way to handle that oh I guess when you do a resource [TS]

01:14:00   usage all we're gonna run your periodic job but I guess I mean it like all the [TS]

01:14:04   things that you deal with that you have to understand infrastructure for running [TS]

01:14:07   arbitrary jobs in a controlled environment where you limit their CPU [TS]

01:14:10   but have error handling so you can let someone know why they think didn't [TS]

01:14:14   complete it was using too much of this and like i mean shared hosting providers [TS]

01:14:18   have to do crap like that where they're just trying to divvy up their resources [TS]

01:14:21   Apple is so not equipped to do that they're not even equipped to run their [TS]

01:14:24   own things in a matter of fact their farming a lot of it out to run you know [TS]

01:14:28   the Windows Azure stuff which is great that Microsoft good at that but the fact [TS]

01:14:31   that Apple isn't I would not hold my breath or anything that Apple is going [TS]

01:14:36   to provide for you give them code and they run on their service for you I [TS]

01:14:41   would agree with all of that and and somebody in the chat rooms probably [TS]

01:14:45   laughing at me saying that cuz I get a lot of grief for saying that but i i [TS]

01:14:48   agree with all that with whom do you agree but both these guys really that I [TS]

01:14:54   think would be awesome I don't think I will ever do it I don't think apples to [TS]

01:14:56   apples capable of doing it right now but one thing I will say is that I wish wish [TS]

01:15:03   that we had this is gonna sound so obvious but bear with me I wish we had a [TS]

01:15:07   little more insight error not inside out we had a little more access to iCloud [TS]

01:15:12   authentication and iCloud in general especially but one of the things I've [TS]

01:15:18   been thinking about a lot in the spare time I don't have is to write a very [TS]

01:15:24   very very basic list not to do like a grocery list app and what I mean by that [TS]

01:15:29   is my wife and I we use wonder list right now too [TS]

01:15:34   organize our shopping lists 14 the grocery store 14 hardware stores it's [TS]

01:15:39   entertainment center and all the wonderful very good it's it's way more [TS]

01:15:44   heavy-handed then then I need I just need a list of things are either checked [TS]

01:15:48   off or not and it one of the things I can think about is writing my own but [TS]

01:15:53   the problem with that is I don't want to have to in the case of mobile services [TS]

01:15:56   my understanding is you can use Facebook to log in this does this sound familiar [TS]

01:16:00   facebook login use Twitter to login you can use Windows Live login and I think [TS]

01:16:04   there might be other options are you can roll your own I don't have the patience [TS]

01:16:08   to my own I get no excitement and no Jolly's over rolling my own [TS]

01:16:12   authentication login system I wish I could just use iCloud to handle that and [TS]

01:16:19   I know I can win on talking about doing things in their own little silo but i [TS]

01:16:25   dont to my knowledge there's no way for me to really sink between iCloud users [TS]

01:16:30   easily and so it's stuff like this [TS]

01:16:34   parents talking about that I think would make it really cool and maybe make it [TS]

01:16:37   possible for me to make this grocery list app for my wife and I to share that [TS]

01:16:41   uses iCloud is logging mechanism that I don't need to worry about the stuff I [TS]

01:16:46   don't care about and apples what's interesting to me is that Apple is [TS]

01:16:49   usually much usually very good at it [TS]

01:16:52   abstracting away the things that I don't wanna care about improperly extracting [TS]

01:16:57   them and in this case they've they've abstracted as many developers have said [TS]

01:17:01   they've extracted too much and they haven't given given us any any vision [TS]

01:17:05   into it and it's just this big black box we have no control over and it stinks [TS]

01:17:09   and I really wish that a lot of these things that separate talks about were [TS]

01:17:13   possible but I agree with John I don't think that there that Apple's in a [TS]

01:17:18   position that they're capable of delivering it and I grew the Marco I [TS]

01:17:21   don't know that they have any interest in it any way they could do the limited [TS]

01:17:25   version [TS]

01:17:26   of this which is they could you know like I just talked about earlier there's [TS]

01:17:30   no reason they can provide a web service to authenticate with your iCloud I do [TS]

01:17:33   like things that don't involve arbitrary developers giving up a code that Apple [TS]

01:17:39   run on their service on your behalf if they said leave ended the services [TS]

01:17:42   already available through the iCloud API's but did it through you know HTTP [TS]

01:17:46   endpoint and allowed it you know if you could write about this against the right [TS]

01:17:51   and the like which was basically apple.com you know it's taking advantage [TS]

01:17:56   of its own as I know has gone back in time but the iDisk website had a little [TS]

01:18:02   JavaScript implementation they would they would hit against you know regular [TS]

01:18:06   set of web service endpoint to do its work and I'm assuming I club stuff to [TS]

01:18:10   similar things and it's not just all talking to Apple servicemen talk to the [TS]

01:18:14   services behind the scenes but there's no reason they can't expose some or all [TS]

01:18:18   of the things that you currently can only do from an iOS app as a bunch of [TS]

01:18:23   Webb BPI's but Apple has never as I always say Apple doesn't understand the [TS]

01:18:27   web I mean that's kind of a harsh way to say it but you know Apple's [TS]

01:18:32   someone understand the web because they they want like the results of its [TS]

01:18:35   restricted iowa's they're not they're not Google they don't win when more [TS]

01:18:39   people here have applications are more people use the web they want people to [TS]

01:18:43   use iOS devices so there's not really a lot of incentive for them to say always [TS]

01:18:47   look and now if you use iCloud is your you know things where you store stuff [TS]

01:18:52   you can make your web app it to like why would they want you to go to your route [TS]

01:18:56   they think you should be using iOS application so there's no real advantage [TS]

01:18:59   into that but that's one of one of the many many other things to keep away from [TS]

01:19:04   my closets locking you win you can't have it without the use of that same [TS]

01:19:07   back and you can't have an Android app that uses this handbag and it certainly [TS]

01:19:10   happened to you have an Android app anything else but that's some to some [TS]

01:19:17   degree is that there's no motivation for Apple to do that but on the other side [TS]

01:19:20   they could put web service endpoints for a limited set of things and that would [TS]

01:19:27   make like make people less reticent to use it why would ever use you know I [TS]

01:19:31   call people using I was like a new signing [TS]

01:19:34   your phone is already setup with your Apple ID day it's great to not have that [TS]

01:19:37   sign in thing and it's perfect but if you if that's it that's the extent of [TS]

01:19:42   that relationship with this this authentication system that if I call but [TS]

01:19:46   I also want to have a website and so now you got to bend over backwards to do [TS]

01:19:49   something like Marco did Blackwell new standards works could you sign in with [TS]

01:19:52   your Apple ID and blah blah but they also have a website but I can't get [TS]

01:19:56   access to that idea so I gotta figure out some system than you know you know [TS]

01:19:59   before you know your email and attachments with data in them so I think [TS]

01:20:06   also there's there's a problem here [TS]

01:20:07   of I mean first of all you know I guess I can see why people in our in our [TS]

01:20:16   little world of Mac nerds so often talk about this problem but as a as a [TS]

01:20:21   developer of Web services and and again because I have a history of doing these [TS]

01:20:25   things myself and I've gotten pretty good recently you know maybe I'm biased [TS]

01:20:30   here or or my viewers is somehow disorder here but I would I don't I [TS]

01:20:37   don't see the big lineup of people wanting to build web services on Apple's [TS]

01:20:42   cloud infrastructure like that sound like as as a Web service builder I would [TS]

01:20:47   never want that because they've shown that they shun partly that they don't [TS]

01:20:52   really care that much about reliability necessarily or about improving it to the [TS]

01:20:57   point where their actions speak louder than words like you know if I'm sure the [TS]

01:21:02   people working on it are trying very hard to to make it work but it just [TS]

01:21:06   seems like other company it is a very high priority and you can see that in in [TS]

01:21:10   the relatively little progress it's made over the last few years it just doesn't [TS]

01:21:15   seem like it's it's like a number one priority for the company [TS]

01:21:18   the way the way getting out a new iPhone it's like s3 you feel like that's that's [TS]

01:21:24   neutral I guess tereza bucket to put crap it's that you can you understand [TS]

01:21:28   the business model behind it because you pay for usage and you're pretty sure [TS]

01:21:32   that Amazon well maybe less sure these days that that Amazon is not you're not [TS]

01:21:38   in competition with Amazon by making your [TS]

01:21:40   application your mobile application on your website that both yesterday right [TS]

01:21:44   but you know I think it got a problem with Apple stuff is that because it [TS]

01:21:49   doesn't seem like it's that high priority for the moment I'm it's gone [TS]

01:21:53   through so much flux like if I would have built before the show if I would [TS]

01:21:58   have built Instapaper on Apple's web service of the time when I started it I [TS]

01:22:03   wouldn't building it on something called dot Mac which most people don't even [TS]

01:22:07   have never even heard of any of these days most people who use it probably [TS]

01:22:11   forgotten about it you know first it was dot Mac and the first it was you know [TS]

01:22:17   whatever it was like net tools or whatever that's right tools and there [TS]

01:22:23   was no surf internet blast something and they there is there is that in there was [TS]

01:22:28   dot Mac which had like some internet service based things and then MobileMe [TS]

01:22:34   which had more internet-based service things and then iCloud which has [TS]

01:22:38   actually fewer internet-based and there is like Apple's own system is in such [TS]

01:22:45   flux here I would never want to build on that infrastructure was going to ask you [TS]

01:22:52   if you think about that but if you read if you read conceptualize all those [TS]

01:22:56   things you just listed including iCloud the current one [TS]

01:22:58   not as a as infrastructure which clearly Apple doesn't think of them as not but [TS]

01:23:04   but nearly as ways to make it easier for you develop to develop feature full [TS]

01:23:11   applications for their platforms so you know if you look at it that way [TS]

01:23:16   MobileMe . max Inc and all that stuff was a way for you to write a Mac [TS]

01:23:19   application for you so that you didn't have to write things tough game center [TS]

01:23:23   so you can write a game so you don't have to do the matchmaking you don't [TS]

01:23:26   have to do the server-based boring stuff like this maybe you just write iOS apps [TS]

01:23:30   maybe you just right back out maybe you don't know or don't care don't want to [TS]

01:23:33   do the server side stuff so they're trying to make it so hey you wanna you [TS]

01:23:37   wanna write a game but you don't want to maintain servers right against Game [TS]

01:23:42   Center you want to write a Mac application but you don't know anything [TS]

01:23:44   about syncing well we have a frame or so many frameworks you know that frameworks [TS]

01:23:47   do the work for you so that all you need to know about it [TS]

01:23:50   you know dentistry for your dentist appt a little bit of cocoa to do the URL but [TS]

01:23:54   you don't even know about OpenGL to make but we shall animated stuff you know I [TS]

01:23:59   was going to get core animation does that for you that if you look at our [TS]

01:24:03   cloud in that respect it's like well hey why the heck would it work outside of [TS]

01:24:07   the whole point of it is just so that you can make a cool I was out there are [TS]

01:24:10   lots of interesting features without having to write the server stuff and I [TS]

01:24:14   don't have a baby or maybe had to be in a lost it but like if you look at it [TS]

01:24:20   that way it looks less insane but I don't like first of all it doesn't work [TS]

01:24:27   well in whatever then you know as we talked about the length of the show's [TS]

01:24:30   done even even in that respect doesn't work so I got his value even if you [TS]

01:24:34   narrow it just to that focus but you know the reason we're talking about [TS]

01:24:39   broadening it out to say having web services and stuff like that is you know [TS]

01:24:43   we wanted to be an infrastructure component because lots of people around [TS]

01:24:46   applications don't just want it to be easier to make a cool iOS application [TS]

01:24:50   they wanted to be easier for them to run a business or something so S three [TS]

01:24:56   provides that because I don't want to deal with storage but if I passed reform [TS]

01:24:59   I usage I get storage and that solves a storage problems for my business product [TS]

01:25:04   provided like people buy my products have some of their revenue stream that I [TS]

01:25:07   can put towards that whereas the iCloud things like what I cannot solve my [TS]

01:25:12   problem how to ride the iOS app but ok now wanna go to ride the Android app I [TS]

01:25:15   have to do something different and Alan are at the web app you know maybe Google [TS]

01:25:19   does it well you can enter it up and went up against the same infrastructure [TS]

01:25:21   and Alba like the odd man out of like oh I gotta use icon with that or maybe I [TS]

01:25:25   don't maybe I'll just like everybody else and just use whatever their [TS]

01:25:29   infrastructure thing isn't it again then Apple being fenced out of the [TS]

01:25:34   infrastructure business like Marco said whatever trust them for infrastructure [TS]

01:25:37   because it doesn't seem like that's what they're making their making this other [TS]

01:25:40   thing yeah but like I said earlier tonight as you just said I think apples [TS]

01:25:45   apples technologies are developed technologies are so good at distracting [TS]

01:25:48   way the things we don't care about a perfect example of what you brought up [TS]

01:25:51   with animation I mean I don't know crap about [TS]

01:25:54   anything related to an emissions or OpenGL anything like that but I can [TS]

01:25:59   animate the crud out of a UIView like the best to them because the [TS]

01:26:04   coordination API so simple and so robust and it's really disappointing that Apple [TS]

01:26:10   doesn't happen equivalent just like he said 44 what we call cloud computing and [TS]

01:26:15   and I don't think I would use it even if it was available tomorrow but man would [TS]

01:26:20   I be like say wEDC if they announce some sort of cloud computing platform I would [TS]

01:26:25   be really darn excited about it I surely wouldn't be the first to use it but I'd [TS]

01:26:29   be really excited about it I would stay very very far away from them laugh this [TS]

01:26:34   is also about commitment because like you know the fact that they have turned [TS]

01:26:38   over if you think of MobileMe and think it's like wow that was the thing we had [TS]

01:26:42   you know five years ago and you wrote and soldier application five years ago [TS]

01:26:47   when you made your money from some application and that time is over and [TS]

01:26:49   now we assume you're gonna write a new application and people like a bare-bones [TS]

01:26:53   with your gym with like black so we've still got the old application would [TS]

01:26:56   still like to keep selling because we kept updating an apple like you know [TS]

01:26:59   that time has passed we have a new thing now so either rewrite your application I [TS]

01:27:04   guess like to work with another solution whereas if you think of something is [TS]

01:27:11   infrastructure like if that at Amazon decided yesterday was our first attempt [TS]

01:27:15   at storage but we're gonna sunset history and we're gonna replace the best [TS]

01:27:19   for because that's one more right and is totally incompatible people will really [TS]

01:27:23   regret starting a project that relied on history as the back in like 10 Dropbox [TS]

01:27:28   you know couple of small companies may be impacted by this decision and once [TS]

01:27:33   you get that reputation like all they're not interested in building [TS]

01:27:36   infrastructure for long-term support and especially with things like web services [TS]

01:27:40   and stuff where you're not touching it with all of our network connections [TS]

01:27:43   really no reason ever to completely sunset that type of thing like you can [TS]

01:27:49   change how St works I'm sure has change behind the scenes change all the hard [TS]

01:27:53   way to install the software that runs that you just the present the same API [TS]

01:27:56   endpoints the network and then you're good to go but Apple like it's not [TS]

01:28:01   making every structure is no pretense of making structural change 17 times since [TS]

01:28:04   then so that's why everyone is so if Apple ever [TS]

01:28:08   to come out with something as they would have to explain say up front we [TS]

01:28:12   understand the difference between infrastructure and the thing that makes [TS]

01:28:15   it easier for you to write applications for three years and this is not that [TS]

01:28:19   other thing so trust us and then still they would have to earn that trust in [TS]

01:28:23   you know do a good job and so on and so forth but there's a big gap and also it [TS]

01:28:28   just seems like Apple wants to work in a higher conceptual level than that like [TS]

01:28:32   they they they don't want to expose the guts don't want to expose server-side [TS]

01:28:38   functionality they don't want to expose low-level API eyes or or give you the [TS]

01:28:43   level data accident that they they wanted to be the ubiquity I cloud API [TS]

01:28:48   that we expose like this and the apps and that's it and I think that's that's [TS]

01:28:54   much to their downfall really I mean there's there's a few cases the benefit [TS]

01:28:58   from that but there's so many that that don't [TS]

01:29:01   and as we've discussed in one of the earlier episodes of the show like I [TS]

01:29:05   think that the whole concept of that is flawed and the way they would have tried [TS]

01:29:10   to do like i cud is a simple thing just you know get this flag and call this [TS]

01:29:15   function and it works and you know it's not it's not that simple it doesn't just [TS]

01:29:20   work and those concepts I i think is flawed but I you know I don't see Apple [TS]

01:29:26   ever going lower down the stack and ever offering that kind of like deep [TS]

01:29:31   low-level access execution of arbitrary code in any language in with any [TS]

01:29:37   restrictions I don't see that happening you know i i any kind of like server [TS]

01:29:42   side stuff they would do would probably be in the form of things that you [TS]

01:29:48   initiate locally in the apps that you know maybe it may be a newsstand API [TS]

01:29:53   we're like you couldn't cue a background download with a certain push [TS]

01:29:58   notification or something like that it would it would be these restricted [TS]

01:30:02   cookie-cutter templates it wouldn't be like oh you can execute arbitrary logic [TS]

01:30:06   on the server and I just don't see that never got into the business value store [TS]

01:30:11   like we will keep saying hi club but we really must talk about the core data [TS]

01:30:14   value store is an example of like [TS]

01:30:17   limited simple functionality that does not dictate implementations just so [TS]

01:30:21   super limited like your preferences and stuff it's not rare like a star you [TS]

01:30:25   don't hear but but you can imagine like that you like is different in like soap [TS]

01:30:29   and WSDL all that two persons like rest you know you can imagine a really simple [TS]

01:30:34   HTTP API for key-value store right it's like it breaks itself it's it's so [TS]

01:30:39   simple because the API so simple and no one is good because no one is [TS]

01:30:44   complaining the key-value store shouldn't exist right brent is talking [TS]

01:30:47   about is not that kind of thing makes sense because they're just having [TS]

01:30:50   infrastructure so let me is the application developer worry about all [TS]

01:30:54   the details I just need a place that's not here I need a place to talk across [TS]

01:30:57   the network for me to put my stuff and to be able to get it back later I'll [TS]

01:31:01   take care of the other details like the bargaining stages I know you want to do [TS]

01:31:06   everything from making magic at work but that's not working for us so if you just [TS]

01:31:09   give me a place to put stuff and I can still use my client authentication which [TS]

01:31:12   is really great I'll take care of the rest of it and you know and then I have [TS]

01:31:17   a good application which it's stepping down to say I'm willing to do more work [TS]

01:31:21   to talk to your summer bucket if I can authenticate against that bucket using [TS]

01:31:25   iCloud ideas already setup please Apple is just let me do that alright with that [TS]

01:31:31   we should wrap up thank you very much to our two sponsors Mac Mini vault dot com [TS]

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01:31:58   to have to register all your demands and related to main activities such as email [TS]

01:32:02   forwarding DNS etcetera [TS]

01:32:04   thanks to our sponsors and thank you john Kasay [TS]

01:32:09   now this show they didn't even mean to begin accidental [TS]

01:32:25   it was accidental [TS]

01:32:29   and you can be there that's Casey list and Marco [TS]

01:33:09   and it would have been a tight show if you hadn't had the middle section for [TS]

01:33:14   half an hour we talked about Podcast net podcast yourself like you did it to [TS]

01:33:21   yourself I can't mean to me that just like a blog post and I haven't had time [TS]

01:33:26   so for the SAT so now we all get a blog I think it was in restitution I thought [TS]

01:33:33   was interesting to note it is but you're the one who's always against talk about [TS]

01:33:36   Pakistan pockets I don't know why I think it's okay to talk about podcast on [TS]

01:33:41   podcasts as long as you make fun of the first ok [TS]