The Accidental Tech Podcast

13: Animated Kale


00:00:00   building this is the most interesting step at a park as well as you keep this [TS]

00:00:08   in the show she better not do I put that in cinema victory garden first of all I [TS]

00:00:17   want to start the show at the story about the theme song are our theme song [TS]

00:00:22   by jonathan mann spelled the same way as Merlin Mann but with Jonathan in front [TS]

00:00:27   of Merlin our theme song so here's what happened when we started the show I went [TS]

00:00:33   to Merlin Mann because he made the theme song to his back to work podcast and I [TS]

00:00:39   went to Maryland I said look i'm looking for for the for the show that we're [TS]

00:00:42   doing I'm looking for something that is kind of punchy 28 is opening chords are [TS]

00:00:47   to back to work lol did you mention bleeps and bloops to him I could not [TS]

00:00:53   just irritate you anyways I went to Berlin I said you have it you could you [TS]

00:01:02   leave with something up in GarageBand or something you like to do that kind of [TS]

00:01:05   stuff and he's really good at it so I said you know something up in GarageBand [TS]

00:01:08   or something just to make a quick opener and a quick closer to the show [TS]

00:01:16   and he said he'll work on it and and then like a week later Jonathan man does [TS]

00:01:22   the song and releases a new tube during his his song a day thing I would be [TS]

00:01:27   willing to ensure notes jonathan mann did this this awesome theme song that [TS]

00:01:32   we've been using an almost every episode since then if every episode it was so [TS]

00:01:37   damn catchy like he came out shortly before Casey I went on a big Germany car [TS]

00:01:43   trip and we were talking about the trip it was in our heads the entire time are [TS]

00:01:47   it was in our wives had the entire time it was it's so catchy and we've gotten [TS]

00:01:51   so many responses on Twitter saying the show a stutter that the theme song stuck [TS]

00:01:55   in my head it's been stuck in my head all day all week or whatever and people [TS]

00:01:59   just love this thing and I love it and we love it except John but the rest of [TS]

00:02:02   us and and so eventually I want tomorrow and I'm like you know I think you know I [TS]

00:02:10   think we're gonna have to keep this cuz it's so good and he's like yeah I agree [TS]

00:02:13   with you should definitely keep the head it's it's really when you when you gave [TS]

00:02:17   more on the assignor for the song did you make sure it had a budget a deadline [TS]

00:02:20   and resources that I didn't and therefore I guess it wasn't it wasn't a [TS]

00:02:27   priority no it wasn't a priority I think priorities it didn't have a level 10 [TS]

00:02:33   priority my only had a level eight priority but there's nineteen other [TS]

00:02:36   level a priorities something like that I think getting this right right marlin [TS]

00:02:40   anyway so I think it was a Merlin impression if not that good I don't have [TS]

00:02:47   any cards to flatter also be lemon grab [TS]

00:02:50   that's that's that's more stressful I can't do it cuz I don't even know what [TS]

00:02:56   show that is I guess I've heard marilyn do it enough times that I I know what [TS]

00:02:59   you're talking about anyway so so so I went to jonathan mann I said hey can we [TS]

00:03:06   just keep using this like you know can I can I give you something for it I can we [TS]

00:03:12   keep using the people of it he said all he wants is for us to mention his site [TS]

00:03:18   and his business as well as businesses this guy you've probably heard his songs [TS]

00:03:22   before at least one of them one of the biggest ones is when when Apple did the [TS]

00:03:27   antennagate press conference back in [TS]

00:03:29   in 2010 was a late 2010 or that was they opened the press conference with the [TS]

00:03:35   song about the antennagate issue and that song was jonathan mann song I think [TS]

00:03:40   it was just sort of the day for one of those days or something that he released [TS]

00:03:43   it before then and Steve Jobs came out and said good morning thanks for joining [TS]

00:03:48   us here we saw that on YouTube this morning and couldn't help but want to [TS]

00:03:52   share it [TS]

00:03:53   they opened the coveted as Steve Jobs likes his songs his song gets stuck in [TS]

00:03:58   your head and he has a business where he could write a song for your company if [TS]

00:04:03   you want him to and so go to this site it's jonathan mann the two ends dotnet [TS]

00:04:09   and we'll put that in the show notes also and you can see his followers [TS]

00:04:14   YouTube channel cuz you know he put on the songs every day and they're really [TS]

00:04:16   catchy he did hypercritical song back few months back when when I was still [TS]

00:04:21   going and that was really catchy and so he just really good at writing songs [TS]

00:04:26   that get stuck in your head and so if you have a podcast or a company or a [TS]

00:04:30   point that you can't walk that cuz that's really good for you like that one [TS]

00:04:34   of the reasons I wanted to keep the song for us is because I got stuck in your [TS]

00:04:37   head that's good for the show that's like promotion for the show and it gives [TS]

00:04:40   you a good feeling when you hear us every week so so thanks a lot to [TS]

00:04:44   jonathan mann for letting us use the song and check out a site similar to the [TS]

00:04:49   senate's jonathan mann with 2 N's dotnet yeah I feel compelled to point out that [TS]

00:04:53   when you say they're catchy that's like the good kind of catchy not like the [TS]

00:04:57   modern pop music annoying catchy where it's like this thing burrowing into your [TS]

00:05:02   brain it's not a happy catchy the one that he kinda giggle about every time [TS]

00:05:06   you hear somebody coming after singing it as TIFF in all of us did for most of [TS]

00:05:10   the Germany trip so it's the good kind of catching yeah it's not like a pop [TS]

00:05:14   music that you want to do you want to drill your brains out right with a spoon [TS]

00:05:17   because you just cannot get out your head I mean this is the good kind and [TS]

00:05:22   this guy obviously you know Jonathan has a real town here because he's big he's [TS]

00:05:25   made lots of songs that are that catchy like it's not like he had one that was [TS]

00:05:29   really catchy and that was it he was done he seems to be really really good [TS]

00:05:33   at specifically creating good catchy songs and exercise [TS]

00:05:38   yeah and I believe his his reasoning for that was like to keep himself sharpen [TS]

00:05:42   you know and develop these skills and he really i mean you could tell this guy [TS]

00:05:45   he's he's really could hit anywhere so thank you to join the man that was [TS]

00:05:50   freaking great to have the steam so on and I love it and at most of the host of [TS]

00:05:55   the show absolutely love it [TS]

00:05:57   two-thirds of the host any other versions of the song I like this one is [TS]

00:06:02   catchy I like it I just I'm partial to bleeps and bloops and I i agree with the [TS]

00:06:08   people who say that the bleeps and bloops the weakest of the song is that [TS]

00:06:11   it sounds like there should be more song and there isn't whereas the the other [TS]

00:06:14   one it kind of is a complete thing you know I should point it also I even [TS]

00:06:19   adjusted the DEQ in the in the way things I adjusted the EQ 24 starting [TS]

00:06:25   last week's episode just to meet the song sound better like it needed any [TS]

00:06:30   help would you just walked out I was I was killing its audio quality would [TS]

00:06:33   cause I was applying the voice EQ to the global track to all of us including the [TS]

00:06:37   song track to now the song track is untouched and so you get to hear it in [TS]

00:06:41   its full glory 64 kilobytes now that we have two consecutive podcast about [TS]

00:06:48   podcast yes I really quick follow-up that I just want to mention a lot of [TS]

00:06:53   people have come out of the woodwork and recommended a million different list [TS]

00:06:56   apps to me after my complaining about the way that list apps work and I want [TS]

00:07:01   something super simple in one of the things I heard a lot of his dude why [TS]

00:07:04   don't you just use a reminder sap which at first I didn't even realize you could [TS]

00:07:08   share less than that but apparently you can do it i think im just on the website [TS]

00:07:11   and definitely honest but not on iOS it's close to what I want it's not [TS]

00:07:16   really what I want it's not worth discussing what I want is really boring [TS]

00:07:19   and not that exciting but I just wanted to thank everyone for pointing that [TS]

00:07:22   these things out but also say I've heard every recommendation under the Sun at [TS]

00:07:26   this point and if you really want to engage me on Twitter to argue about [TS]

00:07:30   these this kind of minutiae then you know where to find me just listen to the [TS]

00:07:33   song it's right in there [TS]

00:07:36   yeah I also I was talking about list apps yesterday be shopping in a lot of [TS]

00:07:42   people brought this up to me also and I just you know what my problem is I like [TS]

00:07:48   the clear app I actually like using that in the story because it has like such a [TS]

00:07:53   minimal interface and everything is like a big talks are can you describe [TS]

00:07:56   everything it's really easy to use while shopping I like that as you cross things [TS]

00:08:00   off they fall off the list and so the beauty alone I get smaller it's actually [TS]

00:08:05   it's really really very nice man walking around the store you don't have to like [TS]

00:08:09   looked at closely at ever had the phone you don't want to be that precise with [TS]

00:08:12   your gestures you know everything is like big and friendly to one-handed use [TS]

00:08:16   while shopping and I was I was lamenting problems I was having with its sinking [TS]

00:08:21   to the Mac client and not being able to multi line pace of apparently if you [TS]

00:08:25   like doing shit gesture or something it it lets up there are some kind of crazy [TS]

00:08:29   gesture that would never have guessed to to attempt a multi-line pay something I [TS]

00:08:33   don't know why I didn't try since then but anyway so I was expressing my my [TS]

00:08:39   disdain for for shopping list apps and just like just like to see I got a [TS]

00:08:45   billion recommendations from everybody about their favorite shopping list app [TS]

00:08:50   or in many cases the shopping list app that they make themselves so funny how [TS]

00:08:55   like so many of these hips they didn't they they only did like a third of what [TS]

00:09:01   I asked for which is very well as far as fairly simple and I didn't even have the [TS]

00:09:05   sharing comment casey had all I want is to have a sync between the Mac and iOS [TS]

00:09:11   and iOS client to be as easy to use as clear when I'm actually shopping and if [TS]

00:09:17   the sink for some reason doesn't work very well let me at least type the [TS]

00:09:20   listener knack email it to myself and then copy and paste into the list in a [TS]

00:09:25   multi-line multi-item action and so many recommendations couldn't fit my my [TS]

00:09:31   fairly minimal required it's anyway it wasn't it was a it was the problem that [TS]

00:09:40   I haven't people getting all these recommendations is it takes time to try [TS]

00:09:43   these things out and [TS]

00:09:46   and you know if I have something that works like 90% of the way or eighty [TS]

00:09:51   percent of the way that the chances that i'm gonna take an hour one day and try [TS]

00:09:55   fourteen different other list apps that's never gonna happen I'm never get [TS]

00:10:00   like the pain of using the 1 I'm already using is never gonna be great enough to [TS]

00:10:05   make it worth even looking at the other ones or something else about [TS]

00:10:08   recommendations as I get them alot to people do recommendations kind of like [TS]

00:10:12   they're participating and personal computer gamesmanship on the Internet in [TS]

00:10:17   1992 like they do with feature checkboxes in seeing you this is XYZ cue [TS]

00:10:22   and peace and especially for iOS apps I find that a lot of the time the [TS]

00:10:29   application that I use I like for reasons that have nothing to do with the [TS]

00:10:33   features like I had knowledge that this lacks features and has an annoying bug [TS]

00:10:38   the drives me insane but but I like how it looks better I like where the but [TS]

00:10:41   like the three buttons that I press must really like where they are because of [TS]

00:10:44   the way holder with my thumb like crap like that that that that determines [TS]

00:10:48   which people yelling at me on that at about why use of that class cuz I'm [TS]

00:10:54   constant complaining about net pots annoying bugs but not marking replies is [TS]

00:10:58   red and silly things like that and you know I have bought like every month [TS]

00:11:03   explains that exists already have all these out like this one has a future [TS]

00:11:07   forever and like I know I have all them but when I like I just something about [TS]

00:11:11   how did that but looks or like it looks like at that to me or I like where the [TS]

00:11:15   buttons are you know the intangibles and that could be why you end up using an [TS]

00:11:19   application over how the rapid doesn't always doesn't always have to be [TS]

00:11:22   featured check boxes and it's crazy to me that people who are like in the Mac [TS]

00:11:26   community and you know sort of in our circle that part of their brain shuts [TS]

00:11:30   off when one like comparing applications are usually has the future you want well [TS]

00:11:35   if it's ugly I'm not going to use it was not really I guess not to my taste like [TS]

00:11:39   I'm not I'm hearing other people's applications and how they do a bad job [TS]

00:11:42   laying it out but sometimes you like how one looks better than the other you like [TS]

00:11:46   we're but neither what's about to slide it was not a slide and people don't like [TS]

00:11:51   to hear that like whenever people ask about our recommendations I have to do [TS]

00:11:56   this whole song and dance about like [TS]

00:11:57   this is the application that I like but it's not necessarily the best one for [TS]

00:12:01   you because maybe you like different things than I do you know that's exactly [TS]

00:12:05   that's exactly i win [TS]

00:12:06   ran into with recommendations to me and said Oh you want something super simple [TS]

00:12:10   you want it to be shared [TS]

00:12:12   what's wrong with you want to use reminders and there's a there's several [TS]

00:12:15   reasons why don't really want to use reminders none of which matter and it's [TS]

00:12:18   really not worth getting into but I tried to tell people this and they're [TS]

00:12:21   like but that should work for you [TS]

00:12:25   myself well I just told you it doesn't you're famous person like this that [TS]

00:12:30   things that you want the famous person to use your app because this is used by [TS]

00:12:35   this person who has this voice to the world or whatever but I cannot is [TS]

00:12:40   nothing against a lot of these apps like some of them like knowledge or better [TS]

00:12:44   applications in the 1 I'm choosing to use but if one is green and one is red [TS]

00:12:48   and I really like a red red wine even disagreement is technically a better [TS]

00:12:51   happen that's how people actually are and I don't think we have to should be [TS]

00:12:55   excluded from being allowed to be just like people aren't picking agreement [TS]

00:12:59   with you like green as long as it were clear when people ask about [TS]

00:13:03   recommendations like this is the app that I like but there are plenty of [TS]

00:13:06   other really great apps to try the ones I didn't buy every single one of them [TS]

00:13:10   and then pick the one you like best you know and what you said a minute ago you [TS]

00:13:14   said you liked this button being red and blue like back when I worked at the [TS]

00:13:20   store if you time to analyze I'll be quick [TS]

00:13:22   back when I worked at the visa and Pittsburgh may be made the cluster [TS]

00:13:25   search engine among other things we would get support emails from trustees [TS]

00:13:30   saying I use you over Google because I like the color scheme on the site or [TS]

00:13:34   like your logo [TS]

00:13:36   you know you like people you would think of Google in 2006 or 2005 and we were [TS]

00:13:41   doing this like they were on top of their game they were dominating the [TS]

00:13:44   search market being wasn't around yet Duck Duck Go isn't everything was Google [TS]

00:13:48   back then and you would think an alternative search engine there be no [TS]

00:13:53   market for it but there was like there wasn't another market for Google sized [TS]

00:13:57   company to have their own search engine but when you had a little one like we [TS]

00:14:01   did run by only a handful of people you can pay them with with the revenue you [TS]

00:14:05   can be sustainable with a small company having a small product of a small market [TS]

00:14:09   share [TS]

00:14:10   to the market is just so damn big that if you can get half of one percent of it [TS]

00:14:15   to prefer your product over the other one you can see you can see you can [TS]

00:14:19   support a company on that as long as it's not that big of a company you know [TS]

00:14:23   and and there's that applies to something that applies to the App Store [TS]

00:14:25   that applies to so many things where you think there's no more room in the market [TS]

00:14:29   for your product but there is that you know that there might not be a whole lot [TS]

00:14:33   of room for your product you might not be able to have a ton of users and make [TS]

00:14:37   a ton of money but there is enough space for Sustainable Living to be made by one [TS]

00:14:43   or a handful of people in a lot more markets and you think you can always [TS]

00:14:54   rely on me to break that awkward silence that this position by Marco is like a [TS]

00:15:00   foreshadowing of his future endeavors in just a minute [TS]

00:15:05   yes that's it I'm gonna lie I have a screenshot I I posted my preview of the [TS]

00:15:10   to-do app with filters to do it on Twitter yeah because you know now I'm [TS]

00:15:17   thinking they're there aren't enough apps in the App Store that let you take [TS]

00:15:20   a photo and I saw there was a shopping list yes yes and and and so that market [TS]

00:15:26   i think is underserved areas are in a photo filter apps as we just discussed [TS]

00:15:30   there are many of many to do apps and but there aren't really any that we all [TS]

00:15:35   love so I'm going to combine the two and maybe throw in a flashlight as well as [TS]

00:15:39   those are pretty bad too and i was thinkin maybe a weather feature as well [TS]

00:15:45   because all those things are dramatically underserved and and so it [TS]

00:15:49   would be a a flashlight whether shopping list with filters have two words for you [TS]

00:15:55   animated kale done it you should call it it should be the name of the app now [TS]

00:16:03   should have animated count on it when you write down count list I wanna see [TS]

00:16:06   can leave whenever they want them to be animated like you're shaking the water [TS]

00:16:10   off of them from fruits prayers no not that they should blow with in proportion [TS]

00:16:15   to the wind velocity where you stand accelerometer and gyroscope [TS]

00:16:20   run with the market you can figure it out [TS]

00:16:23   caught in stylist who seem to like i I don't plan to ever reuse the prefix [TS]

00:16:29   instead anymore because ever since [TS]

00:16:33   Instagram came out and became insanely popular it's that Breivik has been so [TS]

00:16:39   overused now that if I use it again I will look like I'm copying the trend and [TS]

00:16:46   not just like up he my own previous product that predated most of the [TS]

00:16:50   instant cree is like you know there's like there's nothing I can really do [TS]

00:16:55   about that you know you can accept that you know that freezer been ruined and [TS]

00:16:59   move on anyway talk about that happened today do we care I think we probably [TS]

00:17:08   should care [TS]

00:17:11   there were some interesting bits I'm just trying to be because then you know [TS]

00:17:18   had dinner and concert so I'm really all I saw the tweets about it but I really [TS]

00:17:22   nothing so hopefully you guys know more about the Nigerian then you can explain [TS]

00:17:25   that to me who doesn't know the stuff and that will serve to also explain it [TS]

00:17:30   to the listeners who could not endure three and a half hours of that you know [TS]

00:17:33   or maybe they have jobs well to that end I did not watch the three and a half [TS]

00:17:38   hour keynote and after after I got home I lazy twittered 44 like a brief recap [TS]

00:17:45   in my my good friend Larry King definitely called me out and and asking [TS]

00:17:49   basically off Twitter to do my show prep on my behalf so thank you Twitter [TS]

00:17:53   editorial yeah but plans are did it for me too because who doesn't like he's a [TS]

00:17:59   man so anyway there he has extremely tired but I can't hide it I am jealous [TS]

00:18:06   of my hair cannot get that tall and and he he can pull it off just like like [TS]

00:18:11   Jeff rock always [TS]

00:18:12   Jeff rock is a cool enough guy he can pull off any facial hair and like mutton [TS]

00:18:18   chops full beard partial beard goatee anything he can pull off any facial hair [TS]

00:18:22   combination and I'm very jealous I can pull off anything except clean shaven [TS]

00:18:27   which I don't do very well I'm sorry I did not shave the podcast [TS]

00:18:31   I thought something felt just a little bit wrong tonight yeah sharp anyway so [TS]

00:18:35   you used you watched it didn't you know I didn't actually I did I instead of [TS]

00:18:43   watching Google i/o I took a new allergy medicine this morning has been crazy and [TS]

00:18:48   slept all afternoon so I got up I was able to tweak a few things in response [TS]

00:18:52   to some of the live blogs I was reading before and after the giant nap amazingly [TS]

00:18:57   I will go from the giant happen it was still yes so apparently the recap [TS]

00:19:04   apparent from the top I know almost nothing but apparently of the three of [TS]

00:19:09   us I know the most so based on Panzers excellent punch list which I'll try to [TS]

00:19:15   find one of you start talking input in the chat show notes there were few [TS]

00:19:20   different things that I kind of grouped everything into and so the general [TS]

00:19:24   themes that I saw were general stuff about Google's business and and Android [TS]

00:19:31   and Android business there was a bit about deftly walls of course a bunch of [TS]

00:19:35   cloud services and then finally some hardware in terms of Ohio's in Android [TS]

00:19:41   Google's business they didn't know that they have 900 million Android [TS]

00:19:45   activations which is quite a bit and 48 billion apps downloaded which given that [TS]

00:19:50   Apple just rolled over fifty billion I thought that was kind of interesting and [TS]

00:19:54   unsurprising that they had a me-too moment about that oh definitely so I [TS]

00:19:59   don't have anything else on that before I continue doesn't get so deftly tools [TS]

00:20:05   they mentioned a few different things firstly they apparently there's a [TS]

00:20:08   mechanism by which you can ask for a translation to happen or maybe not ask [TS]

00:20:13   for so it's free but you can request a translation to happen within the Google [TS]

00:20:19   equivalent of iTunes Connect I guess and yeah that was that human powered I don't [TS]

00:20:25   know my impression was you have to use somebody is doing it somehow so yes it's [TS]

00:20:30   human powered and I don't think it's free but again I'm not a hundred percent [TS]

00:20:33   sure it's still very good though because i've i've always rallied in favor of [TS]

00:20:40   good voice-over support and apps to the point where I think Apple should be [TS]

00:20:44   testing out the voice over on during a preview and rejecting the ones at that [TS]

00:20:47   are unusable or otherwise terrible for voiceover users and it is so my [TS]

00:20:55   reasoning for that would be to to get more apps to do this fairly trivial [TS]

00:20:59   thing to support accessibility better and it will be interesting if somebody [TS]

00:21:05   were to do the same thing with basic localisation the way Google like now [TS]

00:21:08   that Google has this infrastructure in place where you can very easily localize [TS]

00:21:13   your app or at least do the basics right within their developer portal like what [TS]

00:21:18   if Apple did that and made it a basic requirement of of a preview that like it [TS]

00:21:23   you have to localize alt [TS]

00:21:25   important strings in your apt 403 important to use it as a question I had [TS]

00:21:30   about the localization thing because I don't know I didn't watch it I saw like [TS]

00:21:32   tweets going by about it is this a service they provide like you can you [TS]

00:21:38   give them some money or something and then people localize a rapper is this [TS]

00:21:41   just a way for you to localize your own out my impression interface my [TS]

00:21:45   impression was that it was a service and somebody there are so many in the chat [TS]

00:21:50   his saying that yes it's human powered a newspaper word and if your name was [TS]

00:21:55   pronounced a ball in the chat I would pronounce it but it's a series of [TS]

00:21:57   consonants and so I guess your names did give good but anyway so that they were [TS]

00:22:03   saying that it's empowering people word and I agree with you Marco that [TS]

00:22:05   voice-over support is so unbelievably trivial and iOS it's really just saying [TS]

00:22:10   hey for this UI element this is what you should read to a vision-impaired users [TS]

00:22:14   and when you gonna kick about this season as I two years ago now I did that [TS]

00:22:20   with my really crummy and really simple app in the App Store and it took me [TS]

00:22:23   about an hour and I expected it to take forever so that's not translation that's [TS]

00:22:28   a little bit different but I I completely agree that that voice [TS]

00:22:31   oversupply not having voice-over support is inexcusable and shame on you if you [TS]

00:22:35   don't address this translation thing reminds me of you know [TS]

00:22:39   highlights if if it is as you describe how is it different to an Apple and [TS]

00:22:43   Google could never imagine how Apple offering a service like that because [TS]

00:22:47   what Apple would want you to do is to get your own translators in work closely [TS]

00:22:53   with them to make sure it's exactly the way you want it because it's not it's [TS]

00:22:57   not that it's automated translation of machine translation is just a this pool [TS]

00:23:01   generic pool of translators are going to know your particular application to the [TS]

00:23:05   same degree that you know someone that you hire personally and worked with [TS]

00:23:08   would know and it seems like what you'd end up with this more applications that [TS]

00:23:14   are translated but the ones that are translated would not be very good [TS]

00:23:17   translations and it seems like Apple would be like translating if you're not [TS]

00:23:20   going to sweat the details over the exact precise word in this other [TS]

00:23:24   languages can be the right word for your application and you're gonna go back and [TS]

00:23:28   forth with your guy fifty times about you know one thing to leak one of the [TS]

00:23:31   reasons why I never look like Instapaper which honestly was probably very bad for [TS]

00:23:35   business but the recited localize the app is because Instapaper is much more [TS]

00:23:40   than just the app and there's the entire website to go along with it and the the [TS]

00:23:46   Instapaper app and website and the way they interact the bookmarklet [TS]

00:23:50   installation procedure all that stuff it's very text intensive very language [TS]

00:23:55   intensive in the language is very nuanced and a lot of cases and so on [TS]

00:23:58   also there's a question of shouldn't you also if you're selling a nap in a [TS]

00:24:04   language giving the impression you support that language should should you [TS]

00:24:08   do you also need to provide support in that language like that so the question [TS]

00:24:12   so if they were all these task of localizing Instapaper would have been so [TS]

00:24:17   large to do it well that I never got around to it as you know as my limited [TS]

00:24:22   time and resources permitted I just never got around to doing so I knew that [TS]

00:24:26   it wasn't just you know look like a few buttons labels and the app it was much [TS]

00:24:31   much more than that and and and localization even when it is just [TS]

00:24:36   locally but enables an app that alone is not trivial you know there's a lot of [TS]

00:24:41   problems with again with nuance in another company with with nuance the the [TS]

00:24:48   noun [TS]

00:24:48   of you know just when you say you know accept or OK or if you say read later [TS]

00:24:56   what does that mean you know in another language like it would if you directly [TS]

00:24:59   translate that it is there a better alternative than what you come up with [TS]

00:25:03   or is it confusing issue directly translate it there is there's all these [TS]

00:25:08   little exceptions that as you said John like it's not as easy as here just [TS]

00:25:12   blindly take the strings file and giving the output and ended up there are other [TS]

00:25:16   issues like you know do the do the new strings fit on the buttons to the [TS]

00:25:20   overflow of the boundaries of the German and they're expensive spaces right or [TS]

00:25:26   like japanese were you should be using larger font sizes slightly or different [TS]

00:25:30   funds like there's there's all sorts of of differences that you need to consider [TS]

00:25:34   and an edge cases all over the place that's a kiss is just regular case the [TS]

00:25:41   just localisation is is not a trivial thing and just translating the strings [TS]

00:25:47   is is step one and there's a lot more to it than that so I wonder about the same [TS]

00:25:53   time you could you could possibly argue like is a badly translated app better [TS]

00:25:58   than an app that is not translated all valujet understand like that's like [TS]

00:26:03   Apple's AAPL system of priorities is such that they would prefer that you do [TS]

00:26:08   a super awesome job or not do it they wouldn't you know like where is Google [TS]

00:26:12   their philosophy is definitely it's better to have make make translation as [TS]

00:26:17   easy as possible even if the translations are going to be that great [TS]

00:26:20   because we think it's more important to just have you know ten thousand ok [TS]

00:26:26   translated apps out there instead of a hundred 14 great translations yeah but [TS]

00:26:32   you have the same things like the layout psychiatry about you know when you're [TS]

00:26:35   doing some testing having your seventeen candles or 800 iOS devices now multiply [TS]

00:26:40   that by the number of languages and make sure you check every screen in every [TS]

00:26:43   language you never know when that labels gonna poke out of the button or get [TS]

00:26:45   truncated assist the nightmare oh yeah I remember when we back in tumblr before [TS]

00:26:50   it before I even left to do Instapaper went when Tumblr site localizing it was [TS]

00:26:55   just a massive amount of work and fortunately I didn't have to do it but [TS]

00:26:59   but it you know it took a dedicated staff I think two people one being and [TS]

00:27:05   it's hard to find a good translator for one thing because you have to find some [TS]

00:27:09   but generally speaking it's it's better to find somebody who is a native speaker [TS]

00:27:13   of the destination language you're translating to so you know if you want [TS]

00:27:19   translate Japanese you should probably find a Japanese person who has crippled [TS]

00:27:24   Japan who knows enough English to be able to understand and translate well to [TS]

00:27:27   Japanese but then it isn't just have to find somebody who speaks the language [TS]

00:27:31   and knows it well you can also find somebody who's good at writing interface [TS]

00:27:35   text which I think about how hard it is to find people in the in your own [TS]

00:27:39   language to do that you know that's that's not an easy job and that really [TS]

00:27:44   can make a very very big difference in how people perceive and use your product [TS]

00:27:49   and so you can't just find anybody but here's the worst part you can't really [TS]

00:27:54   judge the quality of somebody for a language you don't know very well you [TS]

00:27:58   can't judge how good they are that it's very very difficult so there's there's [TS]

00:28:02   the issue of how do you find good people to do this even Google's automated like [TS]

00:28:08   the tools are I see a problem because I've done work for companies were [TS]

00:28:11   extensively trance localized everything and the tools to give to the people who [TS]

00:28:16   are doing the localisation that is actually an issue because we would hire [TS]

00:28:20   the best people to local stations because but they weren't necessarily [TS]

00:28:23   tech savvy so you want to give them a really simple way for them to be able to [TS]

00:28:28   update things quickly the integrated with the rest of your process of this [TS]

00:28:31   tool that Google is providing can provide that piece of the puzzle and I [TS]

00:28:36   can also imagine away from them to help with the problem that you described [TS]

00:28:39   remarkably like I hope this guy's doing a good job [TS]

00:28:42   translations cause I can't read them and you know you could have a system whereby [TS]

00:28:46   people rate the quality of the translations of those applications in [TS]

00:28:50   the store I don't know it's crazy for us in the iOS ecosystem to talk about [TS]

00:28:53   adding features to the store or the back end of it do it but for Google that [TS]

00:28:58   cannot be like oh yeah we should do that so then the people who participated in [TS]

00:29:01   this human power and translation process could be rated by the customers of the [TS]

00:29:06   application and say was it is this application [TS]

00:29:08   localized your language very well or did it reads like you know when we read [TS]

00:29:12   those manuals and how to assemble something that really badly translated [TS]

00:29:15   from you know Korean or Chinese or something and you can tell it right and [TS]

00:29:19   eventually you would probably start you know narrowing the pool of your human [TS]

00:29:25   power translators are least marking this guy is like five star for like all the [TS]

00:29:28   things you can do with the internet and the web could be brought to bear on [TS]

00:29:33   these aspects of the translation problem that difficulty finding tools finally [TS]

00:29:37   people who are going to use the tools and making sure that people like having [TS]

00:29:41   some sort of feedback mechanism whereby the people get better or at least you [TS]

00:29:46   can see how good they are during translation I think that that also [TS]

00:29:49   brings up an interesting side effect of this discussion I related to this which [TS]

00:29:55   is I think seeing all the stuff that Google is adding to their developer [TS]

00:30:00   portal today really makes iTunes Connect looks to look terrible in comparison i [TS]

00:30:05   mean iTunes Connect which is what I developers used to manage their apps and [TS]

00:30:09   upload them and everything it's always been pretty terrible it has gotten [TS]

00:30:14   better over the years but I would still not call it anywhere near good there's [TS]

00:30:20   there's lots and lots of old crushed there it's a very clearly made for like [TS]

00:30:26   the music industry to upload their stuff to iTunes back forever ago and it kind [TS]

00:30:30   of tackle the stuff onto the sanction infrastructure perhaps I am website [TS]

00:30:35   right yeah and I was like it's amazing to me that if you think of how far the [TS]

00:30:41   tools that Apple's developers use have come since I could project builder when [TS]

00:30:44   it was a project military Mac OS 10 10 points airliner member [TS]

00:30:48   way back when like it didnt Xcode did not look like it does now and it was in [TS]

00:30:54   this make plays give a lot of high school for like it has a its leaps and [TS]

00:30:59   bounds above where was many things started so it's clear that Apple's [TS]

00:31:03   invested very heavily with some bumps in the road fine in its native I D but then [TS]

00:31:09   if you look at any part of the development process that's not in a [TS]

00:31:13   native application like radar web or apparently iTunes Connect which I have [TS]

00:31:18   used or even just like the ATC side [TS]

00:31:21   along those have not made the kind of progress that Xcode has over the same [TS]

00:31:26   period of time and it's frustrating for everyone involved in it it doesn't make [TS]

00:31:30   sense to me because in this particular case it's not like they don't prioritize [TS]

00:31:33   the developer experience they need to do with exco like they they made their own [TS]

00:31:38   compiler for Crowder you know acquired / coming near there are like they're not [TS]

00:31:45   afraid to do the hard things when it comes to trying to make great tools for [TS]

00:31:48   developers but somehow that doesn't count and it's like college suffer [TS]

00:31:52   through this website and I don't understand that well and we're gonna get [TS]

00:31:55   to that if we get this far since I'm 1.1 if Google i/o and we've heard a run for [TS]

00:32:00   a few minutes but we'll get to that later in that Google announced a lot of [TS]

00:32:04   cloud services and that really made me think about you know the comparison [TS]

00:32:07   Apple but iTunes Connect definitely stinks and and my three or four years [TS]

00:32:14   and I've been fiddling with iOS as a developer it has always been awful and I [TS]

00:32:20   couldn't agree with you more Marco that it's unsurprising to me that Google who [TS]

00:32:24   is so strong in Web services and cloud computing sort of things it's not [TS]

00:32:30   surprising to me that they're doing so much better or appear to be doing so [TS]

00:32:34   much better than Apple is that these sorts of bits so long line with depth [TS]

00:32:39   walls another thing that they announced it is needed [TS]

00:32:42   beta testing and to be honest I don't know specifically what that means I'm [TS]

00:32:46   assuming it's a test flights sort of setup which is interesting because last [TS]

00:32:50   I heard test flight was just becoming available on Android but that is [TS]

00:32:54   available now and the other thing that I thought was very interesting is staged [TS]

00:32:56   rollouts so you can say hey for this new feature perhaps for this new Pinery I'm [TS]

00:33:01   not again I'm not totally clear how it works you can target their say only 10% [TS]

00:33:06   of my users can can see this new feature new binary whatever the case may be and [TS]

00:33:10   that strikes me is really useful and relevant for things like what was the [TS]

00:33:15   trendy Mail app was a mailbox [TS]

00:33:17   it doesn't matter so yes so mailbox who famously had infamously had cue system [TS]

00:33:26   and I think a couple other apps have done that since [TS]

00:33:28   instead they have this need of mechanism wherein you can do a staged rollout [TS]

00:33:35   which I thought was really cool and interesting but speaking of support [TS]

00:33:39   problems I can only imagine the support snafu that that would cause I don't know [TS]

00:33:44   if this is more [TS]

00:33:45   this would do more harm than good in imperious market here your two cents [TS]

00:33:48   about this but it's certainly on the surface it sounds excellent but as soon [TS]

00:33:52   as I dig deeper mentally into what this would mean it strikes me as maybe not [TS]

00:33:55   the best idea in the world [TS]

00:33:57   well I think it it really it if it's necessary in the Android ecosystem more [TS]

00:34:02   so than it is in the App Store iOS ecosystem because you know that it was [TS]

00:34:09   kind of a wild west where you can upload a binary and anytime there's no a [TS]

00:34:13   preview it just kind of you do what you want whenever you want to [TS]

00:34:18   and so having something like a stage role it actually makes some sense [TS]

00:34:21   because you don't have that first of all that long delay between when you ship [TS]

00:34:27   some code and when people can actually get it and is also not that that big [TS]

00:34:31   step of a preview happening the middle where there's someone else trying here [TS]

00:34:37   at an isolated environment and catching most really obvious major bugs so and [TS]

00:34:44   therefore preventing you from you know that your customers so I think with iOS [TS]

00:34:49   like if he if you had a stage roll out you know what would that i truly benefit [TS]

00:34:55   you if you can't update and if you can't send a new binary up there for the week [TS]

00:34:59   anyway it it that the benefit there is is less so than if you just had then the [TS]

00:35:07   Google case we finished uploading whenever you want it's pretty much [TS]

00:35:10   immediate but that presupposes that issue is with your binary and not with [TS]

00:35:14   the backing web service that in this phantom a presumably is under your [TS]

00:35:18   control and presumably you could fix whenever you want [TS]

00:35:21   yeah that makes sense yet did I mean I guess if you really not something that's [TS]

00:35:27   going to put a lot of strain on our servers or you don't know how it's going [TS]

00:35:30   to be at scale and you know you have to agree indexing databases are optimized [TS]

00:35:33   some things then I could see some value there but [TS]

00:35:37   I think the overhead of having such a system probably is not worth it in in in [TS]

00:35:43   most cases I don't I don't even know how much it's worth 200 really I think we're [TS]

00:35:47   seeing here though is that you know Google has to make all their tools [TS]

00:35:51   awesome they have to make all of these all these things for Android developers [TS]

00:35:56   great because they have to attract developers Google needs developers are [TS]

00:36:01   taking and read more seriously and they are slowly but you know it is slowly [TS]

00:36:05   happening but google it needs to be attracting developers as hard as they [TS]

00:36:10   can Apple doesn't need to do that because all the developers already go to [TS]

00:36:13   Apple to apples they don't need them as badly you know and so that's why I can [TS]

00:36:18   sit there with iTunes Connect being being as mediocre as it is and and taken [TS]

00:36:24   they can not support all of these cool new thing that Google is doing and it [TS]

00:36:29   can have a preview and things like that they can do all that because we go to [TS]

00:36:33   them already [TS]

00:36:34   we're like knocking on the door we are desperate to get into the Apple App [TS]

00:36:37   Store because that's where the people on the money and the influence all our and [TS]

00:36:41   the Android app stores have been kind of us this mixed game of usually usually [TS]

00:36:47   not simultaneous release of iOS things usually debut and I was first if I can [TS]

00:36:53   be cross platform at all [TS]

00:36:54   certainly the date they are they almost never debut on Android iOS and most of [TS]

00:37:00   the buzz of new apps happening is still happening i Oso Google really needs [TS]

00:37:04   people go to them first so they need to be doing all this stuff for example he [TS]

00:37:07   doesn't agree with that and the other thing that I forgot to mention in terms [TS]

00:37:14   of developer tools on iTunes Connect sort of scenario is I heard some [TS]

00:37:19   rumblings of I guess there's some sort of lead tracking or referral information [TS]

00:37:23   like analytics kind of analysts is a poor choice of words but some sort of [TS]

00:37:28   referral information just so you can see why somebody downloaded your app and i [TS]

00:37:32   dont again I don't know any of the details beyond that but I heard some [TS]

00:37:34   rumblings about it and I know [TS]

00:37:36   that would be really exciting if you take your presence in the App Store [TS]

00:37:40   seriously which I do not but I know market you certainly did and still do [TS]

00:37:45   and so I can only imagine how awesome that would be provided even a [TS]

00:37:50   rudimentary amount of information about where you've gotten downloads from hell [TS]

00:37:55   yeah I mean I i've been young about that for years that it is and i think what [TS]

00:38:00   they said was there later this summer they're tied in with Google Analytics [TS]

00:38:03   and something that as you can have a panel attacks on the website and track [TS]

00:38:07   where they came from and all that stuff basically everything I was people only [TS]

00:38:10   as an iOS developer it's very hard to know why people are buying Arab you know [TS]

00:38:16   you can look at your rank and you can see how you're doing what else to other [TS]

00:38:19   apps and everything like that you can see your sales every day you could see [TS]

00:38:21   how many you're selling and you can you can attempt to correlate ok like it big [TS]

00:38:26   ad buy and then the next day my sales were up so that might have been because [TS]

00:38:31   of the ad buy or it might have been because a lot of people just bought new [TS]

00:38:34   iPhones that day like it or it could have been featured somewhere in the App [TS]

00:38:39   Store in not even known about it because they don't tell you when your feature [TS]

00:38:42   that there's this cause he's all these conditions or any don't know even did [TS]

00:38:47   some research for your appt by name or did they browse an app store section and [TS]

00:38:52   if they were browsing and apps store section and it popped up look I Section [TS]

00:38:56   browsing was it a future with a top list was it a category list you know what it [TS]

00:39:02   would be great to know where these people are coming from yday but you're [TS]

00:39:05   out how they got there if you wanna webcam pay no there there are things [TS]

00:39:09   like like tap stream will try to track people between things but even those I [TS]

00:39:15   think at work all the time because Apple doesn't have any kind of hooks into [TS]

00:39:19   their stuff and so it would be great to know my app was downloaded from browsing [TS]

00:39:26   the top list here and therefore I might want to consider staying in the top list [TS]

00:39:30   may be adjusted my price as a result or it'd be nice to know [TS]

00:39:34   well most people download my app by searching for it by name [TS]

00:39:38   therefore I don't need to rely as much on the top list and I can concentrate [TS]

00:39:41   more on advertising my my name and and branding and all that stuff you know it [TS]

00:39:46   like it would be great to know that stuff and you did you guys have no [TS]

00:39:49   insight into any of that with apple today you know you couldn't you can [TS]

00:39:52   attempt to get some of it through various you know hacks and services that [TS]

00:39:56   attempt to TOTY like I P used to to to purchase an iPad but it's it's really [TS]

00:40:02   it'll be so much better if Apple integrated that somehow and they just [TS]

00:40:07   ignore that completely which is kind of their ammo would do which is unfortunate [TS]

00:40:13   but it's certainly it's certainly true so what if iTunes Connect and all the [TS]

00:40:18   stuff I do with sales tracking and uploading new versions of your [TS]

00:40:21   application everything was written as a native application instead of a way that [TS]

00:40:25   does not solve the problem is that the only way we can make this happen because [TS]

00:40:29   I maybe would start out as kind of like you know the first version of Xcode 4 [TS]

00:40:33   become a disaster and the website worked but maybe over time they would get a [TS]

00:40:41   read on that made of application whatever it might be called hopefully [TS]

00:40:44   now would not be called iTunes what they already have that they have a native app [TS]

00:40:48   in Xcode integration doing part of the job of it used to be that you would [TS]

00:40:52   prepare your binary with these special you know you have to export it with the [TS]

00:40:56   the distribution signing profile this all the screen is difficult and profile [TS]

00:41:01   stuff and then make sure you upload that version of it into like the file upload [TS]

00:41:05   form and now [TS]

00:41:07   first they had this application loader a thinker that was the one who did it [TS]

00:41:11   first I had to act like you would do everything i tunes connect to prepare [TS]

00:41:14   for the upload you enter all the metadata the screenshots everything else [TS]

00:41:17   and then it would say ready for upload and you bunches happen that would do it [TS]

00:41:21   and now that's built into Xcode so I can do that people were super excited I [TS]

00:41:26   think this is last year's the BC when I think someone was discussing this [TS]

00:41:29   feature of the integration into everyone was excited about that I think mostly [TS]

00:41:38   because they figured if we can hook onto the train that actually has permits year [TS]

00:41:43   after year april you know that'll be good thing and then the room was [TS]

00:41:46   disappointed you know [TS]

00:41:48   an hour or two days later it was all they didn't didn't integrated entirely [TS]

00:41:52   is just slightly slightly more stuff happens in Mexico but still you're gonna [TS]

00:41:55   be going to that website right and and the stuff they integrated does work well [TS]

00:41:59   and it is better and faster and way less error-prone the old way of doing it but [TS]

00:42:04   it's still not you know it's not the full experience but I don't even know if [TS]

00:42:09   integration when we solve the problems of iTunes Connect because it's not you [TS]

00:42:13   know it's not that web apps are always terrible there's lots of great web apps [TS]

00:42:16   I don't think this needs to be a native app to do the stuff that iTunes Connect [TS]

00:42:20   mostly does I think it just needs to be a better web and there's plenty of room [TS]

00:42:25   for that are Apple's web app so is terrible I don't think they are like [TS]

00:42:28   some of some of the iCloud outside a little sick mail application they have [TS]

00:42:31   they suffer from trying to look too much like native applications yeah but other [TS]

00:42:35   than that like there's competence there too [TS]

00:42:39   to do it like the companies that is not reflected in for example radar web right [TS]

00:42:43   is way worse and iTunes Connect they had like I think Apple helped fund / hired a [TS]

00:42:49   bunch of guys r sprout car and head pastry kit their internal thing that was [TS]

00:42:53   doing you know aidid UIKit stuff and JavaScript like there's little fits and [TS]

00:42:59   starts of web stuff that goes on and then of course the web object guys [TS]

00:43:02   toiling away doing whatever it is they do but which Kraft yeah but clearly like [TS]

00:43:07   Google the entire company is focused on web development in their web apps just [TS]

00:43:11   you may not like them athletically and you may not like Google and the things [TS]

00:43:15   they collect or whatever but they know how to make a web app on the time they [TS]

00:43:18   work great and and they are you know even if they even if the visual design [TS]

00:43:23   is often questionable but I think it's I think it has always been questionable [TS]

00:43:26   functionally they work extremely well and I think the visuals have gotten [TS]

00:43:31   better like a certain like leaps and bounds you know when they did that they [TS]

00:43:34   redesigned everything to be that kind of more widely spaced sharp cornered Google [TS]

00:43:40   color is gray and red and blue you know [TS]

00:43:42   that like I'm not that big a fan of that design but applying a coat of paint [TS]

00:43:46   alisa is finally giving him some kind of unified appearance across their product [TS]

00:43:51   lines and each new one that comes out in like when they read two pages it got a [TS]

00:43:55   little bit better and the new Google Maps looks like a little bit more modern [TS]

00:43:57   a little bit better [TS]

00:43:59   gmail still weird-looking Google+ even in its short life Google+ has stepped up [TS]

00:44:03   so I think we're seeing a million different times about a million [TS]

00:44:09   different companies but in this case it's cool Apple Google is becoming [TS]

00:44:13   better at being like Apple faster than Apple's becoming better be like Google [TS]

00:44:17   and everyone of raising cool coming out by William ago but like it seems like [TS]

00:44:21   that Google is upping its game in all the areas where apple traditionally [TS]

00:44:24   strong and Apple is not really upping its game against kind of like doing [TS]

00:44:30   pulling off mass at all was kind of a light up like now Apple proved you can [TS]

00:44:34   kind of do this stuff but then came out great you know let's let's go back to [TS]

00:44:38   that in a minute this is a good time to our our first sponsor our first sponsor [TS]

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00:45:29   websites to go to an Event Apart dot com slash ATP FM that's an Event Apart dot [TS]

00:45:36   com slash ATP FM thank you to an event apart for sponsoring the show i been [TS]

00:45:42   doin Department how they recommended especially if you like a programmer [TS]

00:45:46   developer type nerd and you've never been to a non [TS]

00:45:49   developer conference like this that part is a developer conference but it's not [TS]

00:45:53   like hardcore programming like they're gonna talk about HTML CSS and there and [TS]

00:45:57   talked a lot about design issues you know it's great to go to a conference [TS]

00:46:03   like that especially good one outside of your core area of competency right [TS]

00:46:09   because maybe you're not a designer maybe you're just you know your [TS]

00:46:11   javascript programmer but just go to a conference where more than half the [TS]

00:46:14   sessions are about things outside the realm of your little world programming [TS]

00:46:20   really helps expand your mind the fact that your product is more than how [TS]

00:46:26   nicely factor your classes are you know oh yeah and I went to one as well I [TS]

00:46:30   learned a lot there and it really is a very good balance of of code and and [TS]

00:46:37   design and style and it really is focused on websites like yeah I [TS]

00:46:42   recommended if your web developer or web designer and the quality of their [TS]

00:46:46   speakers tends to be perhaps a notch above in terms of public speaking skill [TS]

00:46:50   the average speaker you get it like a conference or something now that I'm [TS]

00:46:54   impugning programmers but these people these people are understand that as part [TS]

00:46:58   of their job to be entertaining and they are so highly recommended [TS]

00:47:03   so back to what you said a second ago I do want to talk a little bit about this [TS]

00:47:07   how it does seem like Google is advancing rapidly and Apple doesn't [TS]

00:47:13   Apple seems to be going at a relatively stable pace that is noticeably slower [TS]

00:47:18   than Google in a lot of these areas and we we had an honor on our previous shows [TS]

00:47:23   we discussed what happened with the WebKit project and how Google just threw [TS]

00:47:27   a ridiculous amount of engineering talent at Webb kid and just totally blew [TS]

00:47:32   past Apple's contributions pretty quickly that I don't know if it's so [TS]

00:47:35   much then throwing people out of it is that makes it seem like they have taken [TS]

00:47:39   resources and directed at a certain thing I just think they have more [TS]

00:47:42   bandwidth like there are wider machine you know have more and more bandwidth [TS]

00:47:47   for all the types to these types of things for the you know how many people [TS]

00:47:50   does Apple have to put towards making any any kind of web application better [TS]

00:47:56   versus how many people does Google have to put that ass and pick any other thing [TS]

00:48:00   how many people does Apple have to put towards their comp [TS]

00:48:02   versus how do you go to school that just seems to me i i love to see that the [TS]

00:48:07   real head counts here but it seems to me like the Google has more bandwidth they [TS]

00:48:10   have more people have more smart people you know and and they seem to you know [TS]

00:48:15   through through what is often a failure of Google which is there relatively [TS]

00:48:21   hands off management through most of their history were having like a million [TS]

00:48:25   different like half finished half ass products and services that and they go [TS]

00:48:29   into bad as they get shut down and then they get ignored it like and they've [TS]

00:48:33   always been kind of all over the place but as a result of this like lack of [TS]

00:48:37   strict management for so long you're right they do have taken a day can just [TS]

00:48:41   get tons of stuff done because it isn't all flowing through a narrow final at [TS]

00:48:45   the top of this hasn't been so far and an apple it's always been the opposite [TS]

00:48:50   Apple it's always been like everything goes through the top everything is [TS]

00:48:54   directed from the top and so things the top doesn't care about us enough time to [TS]

00:48:59   care about generally get neglected or get on very very slow development cycles [TS]

00:49:04   like iTunes Connect and and and so I think the Mac Pro and and so i think you [TS]

00:49:14   know Apple has always operated much like a small company and that has really [TS]

00:49:22   given them a lot of benefits and a lot of their products and a lot of their lot [TS]

00:49:25   of their output but I think in the case of things like web services that she [TS]

00:49:32   doesn't work like that you just need more throughput there's more to do [TS]

00:49:35   there's more that needs to be able to be done without without the CEO having to [TS]

00:49:40   approve everything or the or the Chief Director of whatever happened to approve [TS]

00:49:44   everything or or being all the meetings and its and you're right that Google is [TS]

00:49:49   just so capable of throwing tons and tons of of of bandwidth as you say at [TS]

00:49:54   this problem and an apple just has not seemingly done that I mean it's hard to [TS]

00:50:00   know that because so few people who talk about what happens inside there you know [TS]

00:50:04   there are only allowed to but it just seems it seems from the outside like [TS]

00:50:10   apple has just never cared that much about things like web services enough to [TS]

00:50:14   get them as right as Google does not have to say something like this every [TS]

00:50:19   shows that this be my time the show you know the Google seems so much more [TS]

00:50:22   dedicated to caring about infrastructure solving a general-purpose problem they [TS]

00:50:28   will benefit the entire company in a general-purpose way rather than having [TS]

00:50:32   all the group that's working on this little thing will will do whatever it [TS]

00:50:37   takes to make a great whatever they're working on so Gmail team with like how [TS]

00:50:40   we really need to make storage work great for Gmail so we're gonna do a [TS]

00:50:43   storage project in like great good job we love gmail came out great we have [TS]

00:50:47   people with good taste like the Apple model people with good taste deciding [TS]

00:50:50   what's in and what's out and we're gonna make a great product but what did you do [TS]

00:50:54   for the rest of the company great so you made a great product did you help the [TS]

00:50:57   rest of the company in a way when you made that maybe some other products and [TS]

00:51:00   the company's some way to store stuff in a similar way the gmail is sourced up [TS]

00:51:04   and I get the impression up especially before they want cross-functional that [TS]

00:51:09   it was like the teamwork and I was also the crazy things to make the first [TS]

00:51:12   version of iOS awesome with minimal you know I am i wud the minimum I towards [TS]

00:51:19   what are we doing to help the rest of the company not just today but ten years [TS]

00:51:23   from now and all their concentration on we just need to make this the best [TS]

00:51:26   operating system it could possibly be in their pluses and minuses to both of [TS]

00:51:29   those strategies you spend all your time trying to make sure you have an awesome [TS]

00:51:33   instructor in crappy products and that's you can you can apply that slams Google [TS]

00:51:37   and many passing areas and present scenario is right because the [TS]

00:51:41   infrastructure is underpinned there is love but great products as having the [TS]

00:51:45   customers loved right but there's a balance and it seems like Google is [TS]

00:51:50   starting to get better add concentrating on making great product not having any [TS]

00:51:55   different products while retaining its religion about we need to make [TS]

00:51:59   infrastructure we need to make things better for everyone in the same time [TS]

00:52:01   whereas Apple just seems to be doubling down on that we need to make the most [TS]

00:52:04   awesome product but at a certain point you can't make your product any more [TS]

00:52:07   awesome if you just don't have the tools in place for your company to make great [TS]

00:52:12   web service to make great cloud computing things to know all that stuff [TS]

00:52:15   like it they can make it seems like most likely can't figure out [TS]

00:52:18   why why are my sis good as Google's why isn't are you know I cloud services good [TS]

00:52:25   as they call them on and soon they'll be asking themselves why Game Center isn't [TS]

00:52:27   as good as this cross-platform web you know like and maybe doesn't matter [TS]

00:52:32   because I was better games than Google more games games to make people more [TS]

00:52:37   money like in the end that's all that really matters right but I worry about [TS]

00:52:40   the infrastructures and that's something that has historically been Google [TS]

00:52:43   strength and they're they're playing strongly to it like you were saying so [TS]

00:52:48   the other section or the grouping things that we learn to Google i/o that I saw [TS]

00:52:53   was just kind of cloud services so you mentioned Google play games I think [TS]

00:52:58   that's what it's called I don't even know they also have a cloud messaging [TS]

00:53:04   gain which my understanding is it's not as much I message as it is a more [TS]

00:53:09   centralized version of push notifications and so the understanding [TS]

00:53:14   that I got was that if you're using some application that uses this this service [TS]

00:53:19   say it's a website within Chrome well if you get a notification within Chrome it [TS]

00:53:26   will only go to that chrome session but the minute you leave that chrome session [TS]

00:53:30   on and I don't know by what mechanism it it determines that you've left then [TS]

00:53:34   you'll start getting these notifications on your phone instead and so this is the [TS]

00:53:37   thing that all Apple users beg for specifically around I message but would [TS]

00:53:42   be just awesome in general so if you say used tweet bots you would only get two [TS]

00:53:46   notifications on whatever thing you're actively using and again that would be [TS]

00:53:52   really awesome for iMessage and the interesting thing that I caught myself [TS]

00:53:57   thinking was you know I but that'll work really well whereas if Apple announced [TS]

00:54:02   the exact same thing aw BDC in a month or not even a month I think my first [TS]

00:54:07   thought will be hope that works my messages show up in the right order [TS]

00:54:11   within a single application on a single device like its terms of the company's [TS]

00:54:16   love them getting this stuff right speaking of cool hands for someone [TS]

00:54:20   mention the chatroom and featured in various ways this thing I was integrated [TS]

00:54:24   with measuring stuff during the show Google Google Plus came out in like 10 [TS]

00:54:27   there's also this hand thing you like some sort of like video thing and how to [TS]

00:54:31   install like some sort of drink a plug-in for browsers and now we can do [TS]

00:54:36   video chat inside a web browser and slamming like you know no big deal right [TS]

00:54:40   fast forward however long it's been since Google+ came out and my work [TS]

00:54:45   Google hangout is now the way that we do teleconferencing we have all these fancy [TS]

00:54:49   teleconferencing hardware and software which we do not use everyone goes [TS]

00:54:52   through Google their web browser and that is the way that we can successfully [TS]

00:54:56   video conference and they share their screens with each other in a different [TS]

00:55:00   speakers doing things and we do like all the things that you would see in those [TS]

00:55:03   eighties futuristic like that you'd be able to do this we do it and doing it [TS]

00:55:06   all in a web browser and Google hangout now require Google+ is that its own [TS]

00:55:13   thing now I don't know what people are doing to do it I think it might require [TS]

00:55:17   Google+ like all you need is a web browser no one has to install any [TS]

00:55:21   software works on a Mac works on a PC I don't even know if everyone's using [TS]

00:55:24   Chrome but maybe they are but like actually it's the one thing that [TS]

00:55:29   actually works and it is amazing to me to see these people who have not been [TS]

00:55:33   vandalized as far as I know by anyone from Google and you know like I just a [TS]

00:55:38   bunch of managers coordinating their like non-technical people coordinating [TS]

00:55:41   their own you know [TS]

00:55:43   five-person multimedia presentation and three different locations and just works [TS]

00:55:48   in a web browser and it's amazing to me that if you said you know maybe Apple be [TS]

00:55:53   the one to bring species video chat was the first video chat I should work if [TS]

00:55:57   people could do it as long as everybody had a Mac and FaceTime works right to [TS]

00:55:59   deny space-time just work so kudos rap on that but it seems like hand it seems [TS]

00:56:06   stupid and silly to begin with [TS]

00:56:08   just google keeps hammering on them and I came just heading to believe you [TS]

00:56:10   screen share integrating instant messages file attachment so just don't [TS]

00:56:14   escape integrating that till you you know hangout becomes the be all end all [TS]

00:56:18   multi-person communication thing in to start out as this weird chatroulette [TS]

00:56:23   attached to a social network and join one apparently according to Marcos car [TS]

00:56:28   in the chatroom it it still does require Google+ account which I think I have one [TS]

00:56:33   but God knows I've looked at it like two years [TS]

00:56:36   but what's interesting about the way described John I agree I think you're [TS]

00:56:39   right is that it's been editor to flee improved upon which is a very Apple like [TS]

00:56:45   approach and it seems to be working really well for Google and and I know [TS]

00:56:50   that I've heard regular people talk about oh let's just do a Google hangout [TS]

00:56:54   real quick and I'll look at them like we whites really so obviously I'm the one [TS]

00:56:59   that's crazy because you do it right there successfully doing whereas think [TS]

00:57:04   about any other way that you would do that what's going on skype video channel [TS]

00:57:07   4 get a Skype is a train wreck and try to get a Skype installed or installing [TS]

00:57:11   or disease your camera on this thing [TS]

00:57:14   FaceTime FaceTime is pretty good FaceTime or Skype FaceTime is finding [TS]

00:57:18   the person like what name do I put in what I applied to you signed into and I [TS]

00:57:21   gets back to before that insanity and everything your iPad and computer right [TS]

00:57:26   and then eventually went fine arts you have to get your parents that I think [TS]

00:57:30   sideways so on and so on Apple if you're listening you have some sort of mode [TS]

00:57:38   that just like you do that for vertical video shooting on the iPhone just just [TS]

00:57:42   force people to put it sideways because if you just put the image on the screen [TS]

00:57:45   sideways they will turn it sideways to the image right side up we all thank you [TS]

00:57:48   for so quickly there lemme channel neutral for second when we were going [TS]

00:57:53   around the Nurburgring and I was driving I looked over briefly in saudi Aaron [TS]

00:57:57   recording what was going on with her phone in portrait and I very very [TS]

00:58:03   sternly explained to her that that was just not going to cut it for a video of [TS]

00:58:07   me driving around the Nurburgring yes we actually had that discussion while Casey [TS]

00:58:11   was driving when we were discussing why you don't want to shoot video and [TS]

00:58:14   portrait it's called multitasking anyway it's weird because I think face time [TS]

00:58:22   does work extremely well but the problem with this time it's one-to-one and just [TS]

00:58:26   like you were saying John if you want a multi-person dang that very quickly [TS]

00:58:31   eliminates FaceTime US I'm missing something and that's not even even i [TS]

00:58:35   chat via things used to be like Sharon document kind of off to the side in this [TS]

00:58:39   weird thing like still in work for business busy busy wanna put the dick [TS]

00:58:42   spreadsheet up so people can see it or you want to share your web browser [TS]

00:58:45   screen as you can demonstrate a web application will I can still hear your [TS]

00:58:48   Rd [TS]

00:58:48   like it's not we're not asking for the moon but Apple's conception of this and [TS]

00:58:52   i'd i'd chat video chat was like that little thing where the people would be a [TS]

00:58:56   little reflection like they're on the big virtual infinite black near finished [TS]

00:58:59   plane and then shared a document that would come in and other one of those [TS]

00:59:03   things but they might be stuck to you share a picture of your baby you know [TS]

00:59:05   look at right it wasn't like made for business where you want to fill the [TS]

00:59:08   screen was just google has lots of features and they're complicated and [TS]

00:59:14   picky or whatever but people can figure them out later [TS]

00:59:17   elegant and beautiful or whatever and at some point just having the speakers [TS]

00:59:21   why doesn't have FaceTime on your person tapping out like that teams are ok we're [TS]

00:59:25   done with FaceTime it works fine now go off work on next great thing but we're [TS]

00:59:29   not going to preface time I already not gonna have multi-person FaceTime or [TS]

00:59:32   maybe doesn't work over 3G who knows but it's kinda depressing it is and there [TS]

00:59:40   there are few other things that Google announced but also they do what they [TS]

00:59:44   have this the Google Play games and then they also have Google Play Music Hall [TS]

00:59:50   access which my friend Brad loan back had tweeted that they really need a [TS]

00:59:55   brand manager helped refa how he phrased it he phrased much better than giving [TS]

01:00:00   him credit for but they need a way to come up with better names but there's [TS]

01:00:04   Google Play musical access which is basically Spotify atrocious last week [TS]

01:00:10   how Microsoft puts Microsoft like Windows in front of everything and then [TS]

01:00:14   they used to live in for Windows Live like now it's like now Google has put [TS]

01:00:19   Google Play in front of all these different product names and it just [TS]

01:00:21   sounds ridiculous [TS]

01:00:22   Google Play itself is just no good like that whatever they came up with my [TS]

01:00:27   Google Play is going to be our like flagship brand for the way we sell you [TS]

01:00:31   things like that that should not have because you can't go anywhere from there [TS]

01:00:35   is nothing but after playing its gonna prove it bad [TS]

01:00:38   yeah yeah so i dont to me a Spotify likely owned by Google really I don't [TS]

01:00:47   think I care I care because I don't actually don't care that are you stream [TS]

01:00:52   music but if I did you stream music I would be more comfortable in [TS]

01:00:56   investing in in the Google to like they'll streaming music they let me [TS]

01:01:01   upload all my stuff whatever because I would have more faith in Google is going [TS]

01:01:04   to be around long term Spotify like and not the thought of as a fly-by-night [TS]

01:01:08   company or whatever but I just if something is going to involve mass [TS]

01:01:12   uploading or mass downloading I like it too involved a big company that it would [TS]

01:01:18   take a lot to kill somebody as fickle as Google who always kills things that's [TS]

01:01:24   that's the wild card but like for her something where month where there's a [TS]

01:01:28   business model that makes sense like where they charge you money for it on a [TS]

01:01:31   monthly basis [TS]

01:01:32   yeah maybe thinking just go away right so that's a risk of anything like should [TS]

01:01:35   I start buying iTunes music today the iTunes store is open to you try to find [TS]

01:01:39   out but it's not like it's my Google Reader is a free service that costs [TS]

01:01:43   money to run the you can make money they charge you a charge every month and [TS]

01:01:46   presumably they charged enough money to cover their costs so it's Spotify like [TS]

01:01:51   but I i just this is one of the decision of Google strength and Amazon's too for [TS]

01:01:55   that matter like Amazon's streaming service or whatever they're always [TS]

01:01:59   telling you things they like to say you did rule things that's not going away [TS]

01:02:02   and it's probably not going with a few more comfortable than I do with just you [TS]

01:02:06   know some company random company like Spotify Spotify becomes a big school in [TS]

01:02:11   10 years but I think there is something to be said for that type of thing to be [TS]

01:02:18   said for like Spotify that's their whole business at whereas Google this is kind [TS]

01:02:23   of like this side business it's brand new and Google often tries things that [TS]

01:02:27   don't work on the shut them down and and and really need this to succeed other [TS]

01:02:32   things they could be doing Spotify this is their entire business so if you're [TS]

01:02:36   going to try to figure out one company of those two that you wanna like invest [TS]

01:02:39   your time and effort into I'd still take Spotify well I mean it also has to do [TS]

01:02:43   with integration to like the reason we like the Apple thing is if you buy a lot [TS]

01:02:47   of devices you sure that you'll be able to watch the audio to listen to your [TS]

01:02:50   iTunes music with you to the iTunes Match on all your ideas devices on your [TS]

01:02:53   Apple TV and you know you're all set right well Spotify acid as well but they [TS]

01:02:58   don't own any platform they're coming from the outside was released Google can [TS]

01:03:02   put it on Android and you know they're gonna have an awesome version on the web [TS]

01:03:05   in there ok by making iOS app so they've got something cover their butts modifies [TS]

01:03:09   doesn't have any certain native platform by rational you shouldn't use Netflix I [TS]

01:03:14   was just about to say the same thing if I mean that's that's the thing if if [TS]

01:03:19   Apple had competent Netflix like service I would probably using that Netflix but [TS]

01:03:23   they didn't you know i mean like there's no reason Apple couldn't have done [TS]

01:03:28   exactly when Netflix did around the same time that works did it but it didn't you [TS]

01:03:33   know that there are no longer alone making it happen so that's why road then [TS]

01:03:37   drop boxes another example why we are using Google Drive Dropbox got their [TS]

01:03:41   first earned our trust and Google Drive came out and then Google Drive looks [TS]

01:03:44   like to me to call you know what [TS]

01:03:46   even though Google longer than Dropbox Dropbox has proven itself to me and it's [TS]

01:03:51   stable and everything I also like Spotify app I've tried a few times in [TS]

01:03:54   his little bit offensive to me it's gotten better to that's the sad thing I [TS]

01:03:58   agree with you it's it's rough it's not intuitive at all at least not for the [TS]

01:04:02   way my brain tix but it's actually gotten a lot better since the early [TS]

01:04:06   persons so I think that's the majority of the cloud services the only thing we [TS]

01:04:12   haven't really talked about which looks reasonably exciting and I do not say [TS]

01:04:16   that sarcastically is the new version of maps which seems to be a kind of quasi [TS]

01:04:22   mashup Google Maps of today [TS]

01:04:26   way it Google Earth with just generally improved visuals and in everything just [TS]

01:04:32   gets better they've they've kind of thought about saying this but I was [TS]

01:04:37   gonna say they kinda +1 everything in the shower but not very brief video that [TS]

01:04:43   Google made of the new Google Maps and it looks really darn good it really [TS]

01:04:47   really really does they have really great really great representation of all [TS]

01:04:52   the different directions you can take between places and if you're lucky [TS]

01:04:55   enough to live with somewhere that has public transport they'll show that show [TS]

01:04:59   car they'll show by those show walking it really really look good it is [TS]

01:05:04   apparently uses what is it WebGL [TS]

01:05:07   the 3d [TS]

01:05:09   API if you will for web browsers so you can presumably it runs really really [TS]

01:05:14   quickly [TS]

01:05:15   everything about it just looks like Google Maps which almost everyone I know [TS]

01:05:20   really likes myself very much included but better and that's never a bad thing [TS]

01:05:25   in my eyes so did you guys see this I think they didn't +1 I think they like + [TS]

01:05:29   200 it like that it's really like that depressing thing that Apple used to do [TS]

01:05:35   and still kind of doesn't particularly on hardware problems out with an amazing [TS]

01:05:38   Harbor device in the four-year the rest of the industry bends over backwards to [TS]

01:05:42   try to come up with something that's even remotely as good and as soon as [TS]

01:05:44   they start getting close Applewhite just leap frogs itself and we just barely [TS]

01:05:48   caught up with whatever the previous iPod model was and now I have this thing [TS]

01:05:51   like the iPhone was one of those things like we were just finally trying to get [TS]

01:05:55   our digital music players to be happening at Apple has not yet carp with [TS]

01:06:02   plain old before this announcement Google Maps and there is no apples [TS]

01:06:06   working hard to make them better and so on and so forth and now they do this and [TS]

01:06:09   it's like what you just stay still for a minute we catch up with you but they [TS]

01:06:14   won't like they're they're driving forward you know every aspect of this [TS]

01:06:17   not things like we just have your data we added new features like all know you [TS]

01:06:21   do look good on the vocabulary on the side of things you can do all new [TS]

01:06:25   technology to run the thing by the way WebGL still freaks me out a little bit [TS]

01:06:29   afraid that I'm going to accidentally root my phone by yeah yes security on [TS]

01:06:34   that is is tricky I don't know that that bothers me a little bit like you can't [TS]

01:06:39   say the Google is just adding tiny incremental improvements in that they're [TS]

01:06:42   not resting on their laurels some team had been working on these maps to vastly [TS]

01:06:46   improve it and they were already already had the best map data and he just can't [TS]

01:06:50   get better from there I don't see Apple catching up to that honestly I i dont [TS]

01:06:55   see why I see Google Maps always being way their own Apple maps I i just Apple [TS]

01:07:01   does not Apple has never shown an ability to catch up with things of this [TS]

01:07:06   nature at all even survive at all let alone to to be able to surpass Google [TS]

01:07:12   Google so good at services and big data type stuff and Apple is so bad at that [TS]

01:07:18   and leveraging liver damage you know leveraging the crash [TS]

01:07:22   like the OpenStreetMap initiative like if I was a counseling appt on what their [TS]

01:07:25   only chance to be competitive in the maps basis you have to go sort of [TS]

01:07:29   community-based collaborative like find an open project get the entire world [TS]

01:07:35   behind it because then it can be you in the entire world vs Google break and I'm [TS]

01:07:38   sure Google is doing the same thing with trying to you know like they'll do it on [TS]

01:07:42   their own dough into rich feedback from all the people like that whole mechanism [TS]

01:07:44   of if someone sees something that's the wrong place correcting it and down [TS]

01:07:49   jackets talk about this and where the past week but how he wishes if a store [TS]

01:07:53   is in the wrong place he corrected and histone he would Lisa that change [TS]

01:07:56   immediately even if everyone else didn't and then by doing that they would [TS]

01:07:59   eventually filter upstream but it's like whitewater himself with his own phone if [TS]

01:08:03   he knows the pen is in the wrong spot let him drag to the right spot and let [TS]

01:08:06   that change cyclical his phone than ever and we're told him how that would work [TS]

01:08:09   with what if you share the map somebody else and people could put in bed [TS]

01:08:12   information about blah those are there are correct those are all the heart [TS]

01:08:15   problems solving those hard problems on a massive scale is how you get better [TS]

01:08:19   mapped it you know you can't just do it on your own you can't hire ten people to [TS]

01:08:23   improve your maps are sort through the backlog of eight billion request you [TS]

01:08:26   really have to just let the whole world participate in fact I wish the entire [TS]

01:08:29   world as I've said many times in the past [TS]

01:08:32   we're all working together to provide the best map this is only one planet [TS]

01:08:35   earth then one set of roads in one set of buildings like there's no reason [TS]

01:08:39   other than good old capitalism competition that we couldn't all be [TS]

01:08:42   collaborating to provide the single most accurate unified set of information and [TS]

01:08:48   that individual companies consider averaged out and smooth the edges and [TS]

01:08:51   decide how they want to pull from that to make their maps better but alas that [TS]

01:08:56   kind of cooperation between particularly in Apple and Google seems to be in the [TS]

01:08:59   past [TS]

01:09:00   well it worked well with WebKit for a little while I was being sarcastic [TS]

01:09:04   actually a couple really quick thoughts and then we can move on to some [TS]

01:09:08   different firstly in contrast all the things that we said about how hideous [TS]

01:09:13   Google properties tend to be actually think that the new maps looks really [TS]

01:09:17   really pretty and I was very impressed by that and the other thing on a more [TS]

01:09:21   global scale in terms of Google i/o is that a bunch of people joke every year [TS]

01:09:27   that this year's whenever this year maybe this year's Google i/o is last [TS]

01:09:33   year's WWDC [TS]

01:09:34   and to some degree I think that's true especially let's look at the Game Center [TS]

01:09:38   knock off whatever you call it thing but this year there were a lot of things [TS]

01:09:42   that as even an amateur Apple developer I looked at them said hey man be really [TS]

01:09:47   nice or outcome which Apple would do that and i just think it's interesting [TS]

01:09:50   that this year in this comes back to what you guys are saying about how [TS]

01:09:54   quickly Google is moving in this phase it's interesting to me that rather than [TS]

01:09:59   being like ojala get these copycats now we're saying man Apple you should copy [TS]

01:10:02   something that's really good and I the only one who thinks that way but I [TS]

01:10:07   thought it was very different than it was in the past so definitely moving on [TS]

01:10:12   our second sponsor for this episode is Coco conf took Coco confers a focus two [TS]

01:10:18   days multi-track conference for iPhone iPad Mac developers featuring some of [TS]

01:10:23   the biggest names in the Apple developer community each event includes sessions [TS]

01:10:27   covering tools frameworks tips and techniques that will help [TS]

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01:10:35   along with these sessions they have inspiring keynote by industry luminaries [TS]

01:10:39   including Brent Simmons Matt trance and Jeff Lamarche and top of all that they [TS]

01:10:44   have fun and engaging panels great food cool prizes and that includes current [TS]

01:10:48   books Apple store gift cards and even an Aeropress that's pretty cool so early [TS]

01:10:54   bird registration is now open for their 2013 kokhon fall tour that includes [TS]

01:10:59   stops in Portland oregan my hometown of Columbus Ohio Boston and Atlanta so [TS]

01:11:06   listen to the show can save even more by using the coupon code ATP for 20% off [TS]

01:11:11   any ticket that's pretty big John I think that I think that beats our [TS]

01:11:15   previous record right I was half off that's right it was I mean let's not [TS]

01:11:22   sugarcoat 20% them and that's pretty good [TS]

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01:11:29   details go to Coco conf dot com that's Coco conf dot com and use coupon code [TS]

01:11:35   ATP for 20% off your ticket go check them out thanks lots of those guys for [TS]

01:11:40   sponsoring also you know I feel like we have 22 sponsors on the show that are [TS]

01:11:44   both conferences I think and they don't really overlap [TS]

01:11:47   that much at all you know an Event Apart is really web apps and design of the web [TS]

01:11:52   apps and cook on his iPhone iPad Mac [TS]

01:11:56   native code development and so really I i think most most people listening can [TS]

01:12:02   identify very well with one of these conferences you can't go wrong with [TS]

01:12:06   either of them right so next up I wanted to talk about Apple's new objective see [TS]

01:12:14   jobs for bridge which actually John you had tweeted about earlier today and that [TS]

01:12:17   was the first I've heard of it [TS]

01:12:19   first lady talking about bridges with John Siracusa we are and that the chat [TS]

01:12:26   was guessing that we might go here and I'm already getting pestered about the [TS]

01:12:30   potential for Siracusa county title and I should probably tell you that I'm I'd [TS]

01:12:35   find it unlikely we'll go there for the job let us go there even if we wanted to [TS]

01:12:40   but I should point out to begin this conversation that there is a picture of [TS]

01:12:46   two Golden Gate bridges beside each other in this article which I'll put the [TS]

01:12:49   eurozone shot and the caption on this article [TS]

01:12:54   of the picture of jute Golden Gate bridges right next to each other is and [TS]

01:12:58   I quote Syracuse account is on the left I don't actually I don't remember [TS]

01:13:06   thirties is it was either for WC repressive from Apple's like this and [TS]

01:13:12   not lyk a picture you know come through whenever someone in the chatroom please [TS]

01:13:15   tell me if I forget what it needs a metaphor for the forking of WebKit it [TS]

01:13:20   was it was from a pass from the WDC 2008 invitation [TS]

01:13:26   before my time so I wouldn't anyway that it didn't make it up that's one of us [TS]

01:13:30   they clearly they did not make up the fact that Serkis counties on the left i [TS]

01:13:35   mean that is geographically and factually fact it is that there's one so [TS]

01:13:43   I so John since you brought this up by way of tweeting it earlier would you [TS]

01:13:48   like to give the executive summary and get your first comment since I've been [TS]

01:13:53   busy today I Instapaper this article but I [TS]

01:13:56   I skimmed it in the paper to that seen nothing to do with all links that are [TS]

01:14:01   looking at it like this is a feature of WebKit and I've already seen some people [TS]

01:14:06   say that this is not new that this something similar to this has existed in [TS]

01:14:10   the past I don't even know how much this is an improvement of existing feature an [TS]

01:14:14   expansion of an existing feature it's certainly not a bridge in the sense of [TS]

01:14:18   the code JavaScript bridge was where you are now writing here [TS]

01:14:20   native applications in a language other than objective see that's not what this [TS]

01:14:24   is either and since it's specifically related to the JavaScript core part of [TS]

01:14:29   WebKit it's not it's not a general-purpose thing but they've got [TS]

01:14:33   the plumbing there where you can write JavaScript code to manipulate subjective [TS]

01:14:39   see objects and vice versa [TS]

01:14:41   and so just having asked ms article we'll ask me what I think it means I [TS]

01:14:46   think what are mostly means is all the developers have seen complaining over [TS]

01:14:49   the years about how little [TS]

01:14:53   how little control you have web can be used in your native application and like [TS]

01:14:58   i I would like it if I could intercept whenever this happened and make this [TS]

01:15:02   happen and in Objective C application and I would like it if my pictures the [TS]

01:15:06   application caused this to happen and manipulate the web you in this way this [TS]

01:15:10   seems like a way where you could have arbitrarily connect JavaScript code [TS]

01:15:14   running in a WebView with the state of your application its objects in its [TS]

01:15:18   methods in memory and that strikes me as a much more powerful way to let people [TS]

01:15:22   use web give you to do things now [TS]

01:15:24   couldn't say mechanism to use that people write code as part of the nato [TS]

01:15:28   allies and jobs good for the health and perhaps but the API you have now we may [TS]

01:15:32   get Jess contacts in years past strengthen stuff like that's not the [TS]

01:15:35   same thing is writing your application and Javascript or whatever so I don't [TS]

01:15:40   even know if you recall I mean I guess it is kind of technically a bridge [TS]

01:15:42   because you're calling JavaScript any other way around but it's not it's not [TS]

01:15:47   what people think of when they read the title I go now I'm gonna write all my [TS]

01:15:50   you know cocoa and UIKit applications but I need JavaScript and said that's [TS]

01:15:54   because now I don't have to worry about pointers anymore that's not this one [TS]

01:15:59   there already are a lot of cross-platform frameworks that work on [TS]

01:16:04   that principle of you right things in javascript and [TS]

01:16:07   on on both iOS and Android they would have loved to have ideas like shell [TS]

01:16:12   absurd interpreter for you so you you already can write apps in JavaScript on [TS]

01:16:16   the mobile platforms and there's nothing stopping you from doing it on the [TS]

01:16:20   desktop as well if you want to but I think what's interesting about this [TS]

01:16:25   there there's two there's two big point I think worth were thinking about one is [TS]

01:16:30   this might not necessarily be how they want to move forward to say like all [TS]

01:16:36   Appleby JavaScript coming soon [TS]

01:16:37   you know it it might just be like right now people do tons of hacks without [TS]

01:16:44   passing URLs back and forth between the web you and the and the cocoa code you [TS]

01:16:50   know you're evaluating JavaScript string literal that it's it's a it's just a [TS]

01:16:54   pile attacks right now having a web you that you communicate with with your [TS]

01:16:58   happened and going back and forth so they might be trying to improve that [TS]

01:17:02   certainly would improve performance and it would be it would make things a lot [TS]

01:17:05   cleaner and a lot less bug prone and error-prone everything else [TS]

01:17:08   also like you said I was so happy that we had to be stuck on a key where you [TS]

01:17:13   like applying the protocol to building classes so they can have visibility to [TS]

01:17:17   the JavaScript world leave not it's less than it is not simply a stronger Morgan [TS]

01:17:22   I'm making up you know like I have three ways to communicate with his web use [TS]

01:17:25   everything must go through them now you have a new way you can really look up [TS]

01:17:28   arbitrary stuff but still like a nice to kinda creepy and weird you know it's not [TS]

01:17:36   it's not like it's not even as good as like the various other you know bridges [TS]

01:17:40   they've had like the Ruby the popular everyone we're like it really is like a [TS]

01:17:44   fairly transparent bridge where things just work and you not to worry about the [TS]

01:17:50   planning this deployment is visible your manually creating the plumbing you're [TS]

01:17:53   looking things up but as you said like it's the ability to do it all I've heard [TS]

01:17:58   many developers ask for over many years because it's just so frustrating to have [TS]

01:18:02   web you have just a little control over it and that that seems to be solved [TS]

01:18:06   assuming this ships and is made a public API for developers and recommended ever [TS]

01:18:10   wanted to be W C could be as the other interesting thing about this is that in [TS]

01:18:15   WebKit first volley was who's committed like on New Year's Eve so nobody would [TS]

01:18:19   notice [TS]

01:18:20   and then and a lot of the stuff is wrapped a compiler macros to not compile [TS]

01:18:25   it if it's not on 10.9 so it certainly looks like this is said to be a feature [TS]

01:18:33   only of 10.9 and you know so whether whether they will do anything more with [TS]

01:18:38   it outside of the WebKit tree you know if if it exposes API on a broader level [TS]

01:18:44   or make a bigger deal out of it we don't know that yet but I think that's really [TS]

01:18:48   interesting that the day they seem to make some effort to do this quietly well [TS]

01:18:54   I give it the fact that some webpages only reason we've seen it all because [TS]

01:18:57   when they open source and they could still help the deck coming onto like to [TS]

01:19:00   do a lot with a lot of the big changes hold them and hold them and then push [TS]

01:19:03   them out but yeah like this is the question of will this even be a public [TS]

01:19:08   API to WebKit because if it's not like it doesn't matter if you're running a [TS]

01:19:11   couple of your Mac App Store Apple matters and if you're certainly running [TS]

01:19:14   iOS app I know the apt I know the UI's that can see the headers but apple says [TS]

01:19:19   their private so I can use it so you'd still be stuck if you're selling things [TS]

01:19:23   to Apple's any of Apple's App Store's would still be stuck using the crazy you [TS]

01:19:28   have before but when I see stuff like this I don't seem like the kind of thing [TS]

01:19:32   that Apple would not do for the hell of it all seems like the kind of thing that [TS]

01:19:35   is not particularly useful to anyone outside Apple because who else uses [TS]

01:19:38   objective say and what did the same time so it strikes me that it's probably be [TS]

01:19:44   there to help one or more applications maybe they're finally making the [TS]

01:19:48   AppStore apps better I don't know what is the company that bought redo their [TS]

01:19:52   store with the with the worst appearance and it doesn't matter yeah it looks like [TS]

01:19:57   the CH Cheng and chat room could help me out even with disparaging them because [TS]

01:20:01   they did you make everything worse never liked her maybe like if they had if they [TS]

01:20:06   can do everything with the web you remember like the iTunes Store was done [TS]

01:20:08   with this crazy XML descriptions of the data and they had died turns out that [TS]

01:20:12   self-interest XML [TS]

01:20:13   heard they had slowly transition to using WebKit views but then they suffer [TS]

01:20:17   from the thing of like well you got a nice web give you a nice to look into [TS]

01:20:20   this application in the hooks are very bad and we're tired of doing these crazy [TS]

01:20:24   accident hooks and here is now a slightly better system for integrating [TS]

01:20:28   web users off so I would expect that the reason this API existence because one or [TS]

01:20:32   more application on their iOS or the Mac are going to use this API to better [TS]

01:20:36   integrate web use with the native application is around that's very [TS]

01:20:39   possible it might it might just be 44 Apple for their own apps to use and you [TS]

01:20:44   know maybe maybe if you're if you're a Mac Developer you'll be able to use it [TS]

01:20:47   but its iOS to there's no reason or is the name of the company says the [TS]

01:20:53   chatroom hope we do it that it was so excited when they bought this file you [TS]

01:20:58   make everything better and I am of you blame childless like the technology that [TS]

01:21:05   enables the storm may be better than the technology to have before us is the [TS]

01:21:09   choice of the UI is not nice so the passage of this article that I thought [TS]

01:21:15   John you would be most fired up about and where the bridges of certain [TS]

01:21:20   accounting come in is and I quote the most interesting possibility would be [TS]

01:21:24   that this is the start of Apple's evolution away from Objective C which by [TS]

01:21:27   the way they're linking to Copeland 2010 revisited into promoting a higher-level [TS]

01:21:31   language for their platform it's too early to say at this point but if the if [TS]

01:21:35   JavaScript Kors going to one day display see Objective C runtime this would be a [TS]

01:21:39   reasonable starting point and I guess I see their point but I feel like that's a [TS]

01:21:43   really big leap and to your earlier point john this isn't a bridge in the [TS]

01:21:49   sense that it you're making JavaScript a first-class citizen the West 10 or I was [TS]

01:21:57   sleepy I it's just a mechanism by which you can call back and forth which is a [TS]

01:22:01   very very very big difference and furthermore I javaScript seems like a [TS]

01:22:04   peculiar choice to me a high-level language to choose in order to replace [TS]

01:22:08   Objective C so insanely popular now and so many people are working so hard and [TS]

01:22:14   making JavaScript fast yet to Google but I wish you like [TS]

01:22:24   the funny one jobs nobody likes JavaScript but it's it's everywhere so [TS]

01:22:28   everyone just kind of learned that some people I think you like it if you work [TS]

01:22:33   with the local if you work with low-level language for a long time and [TS]

01:22:36   JavaScript is the first and maybe the only in the primary high-level languages [TS]

01:22:40   you like home icon high-level languages amazing I can concatenate strings with [TS]

01:22:44   these and run substitutions and just so amazing to not have to worry about all [TS]

01:22:49   these details of a strongly typed you know low-level language like C or C++ [TS]

01:22:54   sir like it's like wow [TS]

01:22:56   JavaScript it's amazing I feel so productive right but if you used any [TS]

01:23:00   other high-level language you like JavaScript you know it has it has [TS]

01:23:04   cleared warts and it was it's not it's kind of like PHP but not as bad and that [TS]

01:23:09   it was it was not like designed by an expert language designer just kind of [TS]

01:23:14   came to be to scratch someone's bitch under tight deadlines and you know [TS]

01:23:19   progressed from there [TS]

01:23:21   PHP sort of metastasized JavaScript it was pinned down by the fact that it was [TS]

01:23:26   implemented in web browsers and could advance that fast but is a similar type [TS]

01:23:30   of thing it's not we've got the world's best language signs together and they [TS]

01:23:34   come up with the language in fact most languages that are not that I C might be [TS]

01:23:38   an exception because it's made by some really smart people who really thought [TS]

01:23:41   about it and that worked out pretty well but Javascript like one guy right at [TS]

01:23:45   netscape originally under tight deadlines came up with this thing that [TS]

01:23:50   it and you know has crazy warrants that are still there today because you know [TS]

01:23:54   that's the way it was then you can't break backward compatibility 220 million [TS]

01:23:58   web browsers so are you [TS]

01:24:02   thumbs up or thumbs down to this John I think it's good for integrating web use [TS]

01:24:05   better with your native application I think that's that's where the [TS]

01:24:08   advancement I don't think it indicates anything one way or the other about [TS]

01:24:11   Apple's plans for anything I think you know we've discussed some fashion shows [TS]

01:24:16   like this [TS]

01:24:16   the path Apple has chosen and continues to walk along is enhancing Objective C [TS]

01:24:20   and it seems like they'll continue along that path than last year WBC it was [TS]

01:24:24   saying that all you guys gonna have type inference next year while we're [TS]

01:24:26   approaching will save that anything like type inference or maybe just see paul [TS]

01:24:29   tsongas auto keyword brought into objectives are using Objective C++ but [TS]

01:24:34   yeah and advancing Objective C by taking the reins of the compiler and adding [TS]

01:24:39   features a language seems like that will continue that I think it's good to show [TS]

01:24:44   what you think [TS]

01:24:45   sounds good all right thank you very much for two sponsors of this episode an [TS]

01:24:50   Event Apart go to an Event Apart dot com slash ATP FM it's the design conference [TS]

01:24:56   for people who make websites and our second sponsor was Coco conf cooking [TS]

01:25:01   contest to Dave most track conference for iPhone iPad Mac developers that a [TS]

01:25:05   code of conduct com use coupon code eighty people 20% off thank you very [TS]

01:25:09   much guys now the show they didn't even mean to begin [TS]

01:25:17   accidental accidental John [TS]

01:25:25   Casey [TS]

01:25:28   it was accidental and Markel [TS]

01:26:11   actually considered teaching myself my massive awards plus you're far as I [TS]

01:26:21   anyway whatever yeah exactly I could return tab tab signed foods basically [TS]

01:26:31   space now please put that in the shell [TS]

01:26:37   actually work do you think that would be fast now I don't know because like a lot [TS]

01:26:43   of the program he had to hold on shift for and maybe I could speak it faster [TS]

01:26:47   especially if you could abbreviate like you'd say curly or pick some other words [TS]

01:26:50   it's like 10 along for her release and a talk show and they were there [TS]

01:27:03   do it do it for ya [TS]

01:27:09   people yet people of that by now it's already like to emphasize that the songs [TS]

01:27:17   in my god I can't take this anymore and so long have to see if there's any post [TS]

01:27:22   yeah it's like 30 seconds long is not even yet very it I think it's like the [TS]

01:27:28   full version is like 45 it's really a short song and like you don't have to [TS]

01:27:32   hear this to beginning of the end you to stop listening but you know you know I [TS]

01:27:37   don't know what he thinks that way I don't people can't can please anybody [TS]

01:27:42   put in place in both whichever it is one minute increase baby cracks me up [TS]

01:27:52   says part about cattle [TS]