00:00:00 ◼ ► very often when we record uh stuff happens the day that we're going to record hours before we record stuff happens drives me nuts late breaking stuff and uh sometimes it just has to go in the notes because it's just we got to talk about this but other times it's like ah that'll keep until next week uh and this week i was uh today and uh the past couple days i saw a bunch of stuff coming i'm like oh that'll keep till next week oh that'll keep i don't know it's not even that interesting i don't even know if it's going to make it into the show because it's like well whatever we've already talked about all of this but it was like
00:00:29 ◼ ► an extravaganza of apple leaks of products that we've already talked about so it's not like did you know they're going to make another ipad yeah we knew that you know they're going to make more macbook pros yeah we're not surprised you know the ipad's going to have the m5 yeah we're not surprised but the leaks are getting so bad that like uh one youtube channel had supposedly uh the ipad pro m5 like just physically there they they took it out of the box they booted it they benchmarked it it's nuts i mean i think that same
00:00:59 ◼ ► channel had like uh one of the earlier things like uh an old macbook pro or something and in some ways it's like wow this is like an amazing leak on the other hand it's like
00:01:08 ◼ ► well i mean it's the ipad pro m5 it looks exactly like a pro m4 but it's got an m5 in it and the m5 is a little bit faster than the m4 and it's like the most boring leak ever
00:01:19 ◼ ► and i don't know i don't i don't know what's going on and that's you know in addition to all the fcc leaks because
00:01:24 ◼ ► our government can't do anything competently anymore so all the apple secret plans well right now it's not
00:01:27 ◼ ► doing anything at all yeah there you go anyway i just thought it was funny like we probably won't
00:01:31 ◼ ► mention it on the show because honestly like we've already talked about all the products that have
00:01:36 ◼ ► leaked and there's no new information in them other than they exist like we we know they exist so
00:01:40 ◼ ► we're just here waiting for the october event but it is still funny to see again assuming it's real
00:01:46 ◼ ► an m5 ipad pro on a youtube channel before apple has announced the product yeah that is a remarkable
00:01:53 ◼ ► leak or i mean theft i mean what however however it happens obviously like that's not you got it theft
00:01:59 ◼ ► yeah like there there's no way for this to be on the up and up like how this person got this it's
00:02:04 ◼ ► definitely theft or i mean it could be entirely faked but like it just seems like so much work to fake
00:02:08 ◼ ► it and it's probably less work to steal it yeah and i think that like you said this person or this
00:02:12 ◼ ► channel had something pre-released i think it was an m4 macbook yeah i remember yeah i think they had
00:02:17 ◼ ► the the physical like the plain m4 macbook again one of the most boring leaks ever because it looked the
00:02:23 ◼ ► same it like the m3 one but now it has an m4 inside and the m4 is faster than the m3 but otherwise it's
00:02:28 ◼ ► the same product it's the most boring thing ever to leak but on the other hand it's you know legitimately
00:02:33 ◼ ► seemingly a product that has not been announced in the flesh on a youtube channel yeah that's wild
00:02:39 ◼ ► like i it's like when you think about like the level of leak that is it is i think it's kind of
00:02:45 ◼ ► funny that this person has now gotten two seemingly legitimate products this way but yes they are like
00:02:51 ◼ ► the most boring like spec bump why doesn't he get the mac pro come on no one cares about that you can
00:02:55 ◼ ► steal that real easy it's really heavy i guess all right uh it is as we record this october 1st uh which
00:03:02 ◼ ► strictly speaking means it is no longer childhood cancer awareness month but the relay for saint jude campaign
00:03:08 ◼ ► does hang out for another few days and so we will ask you quickly one last time to go to stju.org
00:03:13 ◼ ► slash atp s-t-j-u-d-e.org slash atp and throw a little bit of money their way to try to give kids
00:03:20 ◼ ► stricken with childhood cancer more tomorrows uh this year we've had some people write in and and share with
00:03:27 ◼ ► us some personal stories we heard the story of a young girl at a year and a half who lost her battle with
00:03:34 ◼ ► cancer in somewhere in europe which was terrible and awful but still they the hospital in europe you
00:03:41 ◼ ► know use some saint jude treatments and techniques well patrick writes in in case you're interested in
00:03:46 ◼ ► specific saint jude programs to mention i wanted to flag one that's near and dear to my heart supporting
00:03:49 ◼ ► action for emergency response or safer this program helps kids with cancer in ukraine both to leave and
00:03:55 ◼ ► to get the treatment they need if they can't leave this builds on a similar program they ran for
00:03:59 ◼ ► displaced children with cancer in lebanon and they're continuing to learn from this program in
00:04:03 ◼ ► order to make a kind of global crisis response blueprint obviously saint jude has countless
00:04:07 ◼ ► programs worth mentioning and there's no wrong answer when deciding which of their initiatives to praise
00:04:11 ◼ ► but one of the five-year-olds in my daughter's kindergarten is a ukrainian refugee and as harrowing
00:04:15 ◼ ► as his mother's tail is a tail is a fleeing their hometown with just what they could fit in
00:04:20 ◼ ► their car as the sounds of explosions and gunfire grew nearer i cannot imagine the added burden of
00:04:24 ◼ ► wondering where your child's next dose of life-saving medicine will come from on top of
00:04:30 ◼ ► that this is a quote from patrick i think truer words have never been spoken patrick writes and
00:04:35 ◼ ► finishes saint jude and their local partners are true miracle workers couldn't say it better myself
00:04:42 ◼ ► unless one of you has something to add i think we'll just cap it for this year there but please if you
00:04:46 ◼ ► have any money to send saint jude's way no amount is too small no time is too late although it would be
00:04:53 ◼ ► preferable the next week or so go to saint jude.org slash atp and we'll talk to you again in late
00:04:59 ◼ ► august of next year additionally as we're doing the show administervia we have a new atp member special
00:05:06 ◼ ► we do these once a month we do these member specials that are obviously just for members
00:05:10 ◼ ► where we talk about all sorts of different things john do you want to do a quick nickel tour of
00:05:14 ◼ ► what sorts of member specials we do and then perhaps introduce this particular one if you don't mind
00:05:18 ◼ ► oh sure we've done all types of ones if you become a member you want to go way back to the beginning
00:05:22 ◼ ► you can hear us eating weird food if that's a thing that you're into sometimes you watch movies and talk
00:05:27 ◼ ► about them which is fun because the other two uh hosts of the show are not big movie buffs so a lot
00:05:32 ◼ ► of things are new to them um we've talked about uh let's see uh we do tier lists where we uh rank
00:05:39 ◼ ► things in a typical tier list structure uh usually technology things computer stuff but sometimes
00:05:45 ◼ ► things like uh storage media and connectors those can be surprisingly contentious um we've done top
00:05:50 ◼ ► four which is an homage to marco's top four podcast where similar we just pick our top four of certain
00:05:56 ◼ ► things uh we also have a subcategory for developer topics we haven't done many of those but the few that
00:06:01 ◼ ► we've done have been very popular and that's what we've done this month we've gone back to the atp dev
00:06:06 ◼ ► well to do an episode for developers like we know everyone who listens to the show isn't a developer i
00:06:10 ◼ ► know we're all developers but we we try to keep it to keep the content not you know just to be all of
00:06:16 ◼ ► only of interest to developers but every once in a while developers get a little cookie and uh this is
00:06:20 ◼ ► one of those months nice what kind of cookie is it john i don't know chocolate chip i don't know
00:06:30 ◼ ► curriculum where we discussed our um upbringings in in computer science and computer engineering
00:06:36 ◼ ► and how that compares and contrasts to today and also what did we get and what didn't we get from
00:06:42 ◼ ► our educations in the what was it mid 90s for you and early aughts for marco and i uh so yeah it was
00:06:48 ◼ ► it was a lot of fun as always we had a lot more to say about this than i expected but hey it's us
00:06:52 ◼ ► uh but i enjoyed it and i think you will too so if you're not a member marco what do you do
00:06:56 ◼ ► go to atp.fm slash join and give us some money and you'll become a member excellent and obviously
00:07:03 ◼ ► you get a uh you get the entire back catalog of member specials you get the bootleg if you so
00:07:08 ◼ ► desire where you get the completely unedited version which is usually me swearing a lot and
00:07:12 ◼ ► or screwing things up uh you can get an ad-free version of the feed you get uh discounts on time
00:07:17 ◼ ► limited merchandise uh i i really think it's a really solid offering i really truly do and so
00:07:23 ◼ ► atp.fm slash join yeah and if you do join and you want to see the whole back catalog of specials
00:07:27 ◼ ► they're they're in all the regular feeds and everything this is all in the fac on the website
00:07:30 ◼ ► but you can just go also go to atp.fm slash specials to see justice specials there's a dedicated
00:07:34 ◼ ► feed with justice specials so if you just want to catch up on them it's it's pretty easy and this one
00:07:39 ◼ ► about computer science curriculum to be clear the goal was to talk about like college like you go to
00:07:44 ◼ ► college you major in computer science what are the courses what do you learn what are you supposed to
00:07:47 ◼ ► learn what are they trying to teach you um but the topic is so expansive that even within the realm of
00:07:52 ◼ ► that i realized from some feedback we got from people who listened to the episode there's more
00:07:56 ◼ ► stuff we should have covered for example we didn't even really touch on the thing that i was tooting
00:08:00 ◼ ► about uh a few days ago about uh my children learning about the file system in college so that's i i felt
00:08:07 ◼ ► like we should have put that in this member special now i'll just save it for another one um so it is
00:08:11 ◼ ► actually a much bigger topic than you might think if you never uh studied computer science in college
00:08:16 ◼ ► uh or interested in it or wondering like how that works uh this is a good uh special to listen to
00:08:23 ◼ ► uh but as i said in the show you absolutely do not have to go to college at all let alone major in
00:08:28 ◼ ► computer science to be a successful programmer and that is a whole other topic about being a
00:08:32 ◼ ► programmer without any formal education and what that's like so we'll probably go back to the atp dev
00:08:36 ◼ ► well at some point but for now atp dev computer science curriculum mostly in college uh we have two
00:08:42 ◼ ► unrelated yet kind of spiritually related uh quick and adorable stories i wanted to share
00:08:47 ◼ ► uh mark christian writes i was just walking through manhattan and wearing an atp shirt when a stranger
00:08:51 ◼ ► tapped me on the shoulder held up his phone showing overcast actively playing atp and gave me a thumbs up
00:08:57 ◼ ► what a nerd can i save button for the record yeah every time i am around like people in the public like
00:09:04 ◼ ► you know if i'm like if i'm in the city right on the subway every time i see a phone screen yeah i spy it
00:09:09 ◼ ► i glance at that because i want to see what they're doing on their phone i don't want to read
00:09:12 ◼ ► their messages i just want to see like you know what kind of apps are they using i hope every time
00:09:17 ◼ ► to see my app it has never happened i have never seen like a random you know outside of like a tech
00:09:23 ◼ ► conference i've never seen anyone using an app i've made on their phone what i do see is everybody
00:09:30 ◼ ► playing like those candy matching games yeah and browsing instagram and texting their friends that's it
00:09:35 ◼ ► like the entire i don't even see that the entirety of what i see is candy matching instagram and messages
00:09:42 ◼ ► i wish someday to see my app in use by a stranger out in the world it hasn't yet happened well apparently
00:09:49 ◼ ► it happened for mark and uh i i i think it's pretty clear that the what a nerd line was tongue in cheek
00:09:54 ◼ ► but it still made me laugh quite a bit and i would like nerd yeah right exactly i would love it if uh you
00:10:00 ◼ ► happen to be that that person that uh flashed mark your screen and a thumbs up please write in i would
00:10:06 ◼ ► love to hear about it additionally uh richard ernie writes that he was recognized in an atp pixel shirt
00:10:12 ◼ ► upon arriving in edinburgh scotland which i think is quite adorable as well uh apparently the person that
00:10:18 ◼ ► he ran into was also an atp fan uh which on on this topic i think i might have mentioned this before
00:10:22 ◼ ► but uh my sister's family sister her husband and all her kids who are now adults slash college kids
00:10:28 ◼ ► uh have a contest among the family to see who is going to be the first to wear one of my shirts like
00:10:37 ◼ ► an atp shirt or a hypocritical shirt or something like that and have someone recognize the shirt like
00:10:42 ◼ ► understand what it is they get lots of people saying uh is that about tennis is that about bmw you know
00:10:47 ◼ ► like all those things but they don't no one has actually seen the thing so every time we get one
00:10:50 ◼ ► of these i say you should just go to scotland you could win the game apparently you just show up in
00:10:54 ◼ ► scotland with an atp pixel shirt and someone will find you easy peasy but just like marco like like
00:10:59 ◼ ► lots of people have his app but he never sees them so it doesn't seem like it's enough so they're
00:11:04 ◼ ► out there they're wearing atp shirts i send them atp shirts uh whenever we have a sale and stuff like
00:11:07 ◼ ► that um they're out there wearing the shirts just hoping somewhere someone's going to be like hey
00:11:12 ◼ ► what is that shirt they'd be like oh my uncle's podcast right but it just never happens
00:11:21 ◼ ► and it was early this summer if i'm not mistaken i saw a gentleman in his family walk into the pool
00:11:26 ◼ ► and i was like wait a second wait a second and sure enough it was an atp uh dad hat as we used to call
00:11:33 ◼ ► it on a dad um and this was delightful for me and i did introduce myself or i think i shouted out like
00:11:40 ◼ ► nice hat or something like that it was walking by as he was walking by but this was made deeply
00:11:43 ◼ ► uncomfortable because i am topless in a bathing suit in the swimming pool and this is not the most
00:11:48 ◼ ► wonderful time to meet someone who has listened to presumably at least a couple hours of your voice
00:11:52 ◼ ► so that was a little bit awkward so and i forget the gentleman's name he's very kind um but if you're
00:11:58 ◼ ► out there still listening you might not be after that experience i wouldn't blame you but if you're
00:12:01 ◼ ► out there still listening i appreciate you nevertheless yeah one time uh tiff and i went uh about six years
00:12:08 ◼ ► ago we went to on a vacation to cancun together um and we in like in the pool like sitting on the
00:12:16 ◼ ► pool deck of this hotel in cancun somebody heard her talking and said oh my god are you tiff armand
00:12:25 ◼ ► oh wow yeah like that and then you know we got to talking to both of them and they were end up being
00:12:29 ◼ ► fans of both of ours but like that's the closest i've ever come to that and that was amazing and it
00:12:33 ◼ ► wasn't even me being recognized it was tiff which is awesome that's the danger of being a podcaster
00:12:37 ◼ ► is that people don't know what you look like but they do know your voice for the people who can
00:12:42 ◼ ► recognize voices which is the only subset of our listeners as we've discussed in past episodes but
00:12:46 ◼ ► they do know your voice and so you never know when they're going to come up behind you because
00:12:50 ◼ ► you're not they're not even going to be in your field division they're going to be like excuse me
00:12:53 ◼ ► are you john syracuse like that i mean again to my sister someone in my sister family wants to win
00:12:57 ◼ ► this game they just need to go to wwdc but i feel like that doesn't count it does it absolutely
00:13:01 ◼ ► doesn't count but that's that's the all that's all perhaps all the people who know who we are at
00:13:05 ◼ ► that conference and then they disperse oh yeah and even then like it's not a huge percentage of those
00:13:09 ◼ ► people exactly yes it's tiny percentage but that's all of them yeah yeah they're all there no it's i've
00:13:15 ◼ ► told the story before on the show i'm pretty darn sure but the first time i ever got recognized in
00:13:19 ◼ ► public i was sitting in dulles waiting to go to wwdc this was uh marco or marco jeezy peasy
00:13:25 ◼ ► underscore and i's uh tradition every year we were on uh virgin atlantic or virgin america excuse me
00:13:31 ◼ ► flight 96 i think it was maybe that was a return flight i don't remember now but um we were sitting
00:13:36 ◼ ► in dulles just chit-chatting and i had my back to you know there was like one of those situations where
00:13:40 ◼ ► the chairs had their backs to each other and the person like one or two chairs down behind me
00:13:45 ◼ ► tapped me on the shoulder and said i'm sorry are you casey because i heard your voice and i was
00:13:49 ◼ ► like oh my god what is happening because that was the very first time i'd been recognized in any
00:13:55 ◼ ► capacity and it blew my mind it was incredibly flattering but blew my mind that my stupid voice
00:14:02 ◼ ► was what got me pegged which obviously makes perfect logical sense but it was so astonishing and off-putting
00:14:08 ◼ ► but not in the negative way in like the positive way um it was very unusual and very cool anyway sorry
00:14:19 ◼ ► right well hey like even if you don't have a podcast it used to be back when wwc was in person
00:14:24 ◼ ► if you were in a lived in a major city and you got on one of the the obvious flights for arriving at
00:14:28 ◼ ► wwdc there was tons of other wwdc people in that you could you could spot them by like how much apple
00:14:34 ◼ ► crap they had or whatever like if they're wearing a past year's wwdc shirt those were definitely nerd
00:14:40 ◼ ► heavy flights yes they were i miss those days um all right so what we have in the show notes is as
00:14:46 ◼ ► follows uh apple released uh ios 26.0.1 and apple says this update provides important bug fixes and
00:14:52 ◼ ► security updates for your iphone including fixes for the following issues wi-fi and bluetooth may
00:14:56 ◼ ► occasionally disconnect an iphone 17 iphone air and iphone 17 pro models and i saw saw this and thought
00:15:02 ◼ ► yes this is my moment because as i lamented i believe last episode uh car play with my beloved uh car
00:15:09 ◼ ► link it dongle which i bought something like seven years ago so it is not new by any stretch of the
00:15:14 ◼ ► imagination uh car wire wireless car play isn't working anymore it'll stay connected for like
00:15:18 ◼ ► 30 ish seconds and then crap out and then it'll reconnect like 10 seconds later then crap out
00:15:23 ◼ ► and it just does this endlessly wired car play still works great but wireless with this particular dongle
00:15:29 ◼ ► does not that's making me very sad a lot of people including rosemary orchard have written in and said
00:15:34 ◼ ► they've gotten newer versions of whatever their particular dongle that they favor is uh and that's
00:15:39 ◼ ► worked out well for them uh but i figured oh this must be software i'll wait it out and so 26.0.1
00:15:45 ◼ ► happened uh today i went to one of my favorite local libraries and that's like a 15 20 minute drive
00:15:51 ◼ ► from us it's not the nearest library but it's one of my favorites and uh i like i said it's 15 20 minute
00:15:57 ◼ ► drive and i tried using my 26.0.1 iphone 17 pro with my with my car link it dongle and almost
00:16:11 ◼ ► but after that i'm probably going to use this as an excuse to just get a new dongle and hopefully fix
00:16:16 ◼ ► the problem i can tell you i saw i'm running the 26.1 beta on my 17 pro oh and well honestly i figured
00:16:23 ◼ ► nothing can be more buggy than 26.0 you're not wrong you're not and i'm happy to report 26.1
00:16:29 ◼ ► does fix some of the like ui bugs in the system that i've that have been oh man it's being an app
00:16:36 ◼ ► developer right now and having adopted the 26 design like it's kind of like a you know a darned if you do
00:16:43 ◼ ► darned if you didn't kind of thing of like if you if you didn't adopt 26 design yet you're hearing from
00:16:47 ◼ ► all your users saying why aren't you adopting this design um if you did adopt it you are getting bug
00:16:53 ◼ ► reports from your users about bugs in your app that you can't fix because they're system bugs
00:16:58 ◼ ► and so i have like i would say a good half of the bug reports that i'm getting in the last month
00:17:08 ◼ ► have actually been apple bugs have they've been ios 26.0 bugs that you know it's especially oh my god
00:17:15 ◼ ► the when you have reduced transparency in dark mode uh you will frequently get white on white
00:17:22 ◼ ► liquid glass toolbar buttons that's neat that's a 26.0 bug i think they fix that into a 2601 i did they
00:17:29 ◼ ► because it seems fixed in 26.1 beta um but that's not that's not out to the public yet so like i get
00:17:35 ◼ ► i probably get five to ten emails a day about that issue alone like it and there's so many you know i'm
00:17:42 ◼ ► getting reports of like carplay speaking of which casey i'm getting reports that uh my app is getting
00:17:48 ◼ ► like garbled audio quality in carplay along with other podcast apps when running on 26 uh on i was 26
00:17:56 ◼ ► what am i supposed to do about that like that's as far as i can tell i think it's an ios bug but again
00:18:02 ◼ ► like my users don't know that they just report it to me as my bug and i oh man i'm i'm kidding honestly
00:18:08 ◼ ► like i'm so worn down from getting a bunch of reports of bugs that i can't fix because they're
00:18:15 ◼ ► apple's bugs i i hope i hope they iron these out soon because like this this release cycle is rough
00:18:22 ◼ ► it it did exactly what we all feared it would which is like oh this huge redesign that's going to be a
00:18:28 ◼ ► lot of work for apple too and they're not going to hit their deadline well they didn't they shipped a
00:18:32 ◼ ► bunch of betas as final versions they definitely did not hit their deadline and you know who and
00:18:37 ◼ ► no one could have they just you know this is a problem of their own creation and the schedule
00:18:40 ◼ ► they made to themselves anyway um but going back to your topic about uh wi-fi uh connectivity bugs
00:18:46 ◼ ► tethering is totally broken on my 17 pro and i oh yeah i saw you talking about that on maston i
00:18:54 ◼ ► haven't had a chance to try it myself but i don't feel like i've had a problem with it and a couple
00:18:58 ◼ ► times i've tried it very briefly are you running the beta like marco is no not in not in 26.1 right
00:19:03 ◼ ► so to be fair it could be a 26.1 beta problem i don't know that because i'm running 26.1 beta
00:19:07 ◼ ► on my 17 pro and tethering is incredibly unreliable like you can get it to work and it'll work for
00:19:15 ◼ ► between you know one and 15 minutes and then it'll just be totally dropped it'll be unreachable like
00:19:22 ◼ ► you'll still be connected according to the computer but no data will go through you can't ping google.com
00:19:28 ◼ ► whatever like you know everything just dies you lose all connectivity until you reboot the phone
00:19:33 ◼ ► and this happens i don't think it's wi-fi because this happens whether you are running over wi-fi or
00:19:38 ◼ ► a usb cable it doesn't matter either way so it seems like there's some kind of massive breakage of
00:19:45 ◼ ► tethering at least in the 26.1 beta or or or the iphone pro like one of those it's broken
00:19:51 ◼ ► whatever it is and like i've been so spoiled all summer long because tahoe has been awesome for
00:19:57 ◼ ► tethering because tahoe finally auto reconnects when you go through a train tunnel or whatever and lose
00:20:03 ◼ ► connection for a second tahoe auto reconnects and if if you open up your tahoe laptop on you know on a
00:20:10 ◼ ► train or whatever and you have no wi-fi after like a couple of seconds of looking for wi-fi
00:20:14 ◼ ► it automatically connects to tethering which is a feature apple has advertised i believe for
00:20:19 ◼ ► something like three years but it never worked until tahoe so all summer i've had this glorious
00:20:24 ◼ ► tethering experience on my laptop with my 16 pro as it like slowly you know melted itself and couldn't
00:20:31 ◼ ► keep itself charged but like you know slowly you know heating up the world but it worked every time i
00:20:38 ◼ ► would open my open up my laptop on the train and a few seconds later i'd just be connected and it
00:20:43 ◼ ► would stay connected the entire time it was glorious it almost made me think like maybe i don't need a
00:20:49 ◼ ► cellular macbook after all but you know two seconds with this problem on my on my you know beta running
00:20:56 ◼ ► 17 pro not being able to tether reliably and i'm like oh no like this is this is unusable again so i
00:21:03 ◼ ► don't know i don't know what to do i i hope this is fixed quickly but all this is to say that like
00:21:07 ◼ ► not only is is are the 26.0 releases obviously very buggy and now maybe 20 maybe 26.1 as well
00:21:14 ◼ ► we'll see um it of course it will still have bugs like it's not enough time to affix to all of them
00:21:20 ◼ ► but it seems to me maybe maybe introducing new ones we'll see it is a beta but also these phones have the
00:21:25 ◼ ► have apple's new wi-fi chip the n1 it's in all the new phones and i can't help but think that like
00:21:31 ◼ ► obviously there's going to be some problems there's going to be some you know compatibility
00:21:35 ◼ ► issues there's going to be flaws there's going to be bugs and that's going to take a while to iron
00:21:40 ◼ ► out too so in a way i think we also have beta hardware this season um and not that i don't
00:21:45 ◼ ► think it can be fixed in software like i think i think in a few months these exact iphones with
00:21:52 ◼ ► software fixes will be fantastic at all these things like i i'm sure this is a very short-lived
00:21:56 ◼ ► problem until they get these fixes out but right now there are problems and i i hope they fix them
00:22:03 ◼ ► soon because otherwise these are fantastic phones but you know there's they're not everything is not
00:22:08 ◼ ► fully baked yet yeah i mean i i definitely think that 26.1 from the rumblings i've heard from birdies
00:22:16 ◼ ► and i think i'm not the only one is really the 26.0 release it's obviously not literally but
00:22:20 ◼ ► it's the release that i think apple internally wanted to have is 26.0 and just couldn't make it in time so
00:22:26 ◼ ► i'm hopeful we'll see what happens i will say very briefly i know we already talked about
00:22:30 ◼ ► first impressions of these phones and we're going to talk about first impressions about other things
00:22:35 ◼ ► later but i will briefly say this thing does not get hot like the 16 pro did or at least not yet
00:22:40 ◼ ► anyway now i haven't had like a football game in fall sun or anything like that yet so maybe i'm wrong
00:22:45 ◼ ► maybe i'm jumping jumping ahead of myself but from what i can tell so far this thing does not get
00:22:49 ◼ ► anywhere near as hot as the 16 pro did and i i don't think i really appreciated or understood because i
00:22:55 ◼ ► don't appreciate it how hot the 16 pro got and i thought and i thought i knew but now having a
00:22:59 ◼ ► i find that it is quite a bit better now so that is very good yeah that has been awesome like at like
00:23:09 ◼ ► if i'm not tethering i have no problems with this phone like it when i'm just using the phone itself
00:23:14 ◼ ► which itself maintains its own internet connection just fine when i'm using the phone itself it is
00:23:19 ◼ ► glorious because you're right like it is a much better thermal design the phone can actually keep
00:23:25 ◼ ► itself charged while outside and being used like through it through a cable to the laptop to a
00:23:30 ◼ ► battery or whatever it can charge itself to a hundred percent without like massively throttling
00:23:34 ◼ ► itself for hours while it cools down like it it's so it just it works so much better it it's a it's a
00:23:42 ◼ ► great overall phone i'm i'm very happy with the 17 pro and i love the orange i'm so glad i did the
00:23:48 ◼ ► orange it looks fantastic i'm so happy when i see it every time can we not because aaron got the orange
00:23:54 ◼ ► and i don't dislike my purpley blue bluey purple but the orange was a better choice unquestionably
00:24:01 ◼ ► it's not too late you can still get it no it's all right like it's fine he doesn't want to go through
00:24:06 ◼ ► the phone setup experience another time no i really yeah just get like you know three thunderbolt cables
00:24:11 ◼ ► right yeah exactly i'll get to that later uh yeah yeah all right so uh we had uh some questions last
00:24:17 ◼ ► week speaking of all this about what was a perfect segue thank you gentlemen uh we had questions with
00:24:21 ◼ ► regard to backups and you know what is iCloud actually backup or not and uh Dayton Lowell writes
00:24:26 ◼ ► if you haven't turned on message or i think this is actually a quote directly from the apple page
00:24:30 ◼ ► he gave us a link to the apple thank you web page but via Dayton if you haven't turned on a message in
00:24:35 ◼ ► iCloud your messages are included in iCloud backup if you use messages in iCloud your messages automatically
00:24:39 ◼ ► sync to iCloud so they aren't included in your daily backup which makes sense uh additionally with
00:24:45 ◼ ► regard to my iMessage stuff Nick writes yes you should considering enable mess enabling messages
00:24:49 ◼ ► in iCloud temper your expectations though is nobody will ever accuse the feature being fast and it may
00:24:54 ◼ ► randomly pause if your devices are not charging or get too warm but when you delete a conversation
00:24:59 ◼ ► thread on one device it cleans it up everywhere which is very nice also for the sake of your iCloud
00:25:03 ◼ ► storage and especially for your Mac consider going to settings apps messages message history keep
00:25:12 ◼ ► messages is a terrible archive for attachments and photos if you are already in the habit of
00:25:17 ◼ ► saving important photos and you you want to keep forever to your iCloud photos as you receive them
00:25:21 ◼ ► then you can probably let go of messages older than a year there's less of an issue on the iPhone where
00:25:25 ◼ ► it will offload 100 gigs of messages but Apple has yet to implement the same offloading feature for
00:25:30 ◼ ► messages on the Mac which is untenable for a lot of folks additionally Nathan writes uh Casey if you're
00:25:35 ◼ ► worried about too many gifts in your messages go to settings general iPhone storage messages gifts
00:25:40 ◼ ► and stickers you need to select them one by one but you can delete them quickly uh additionally I don't
00:25:46 ◼ ► think we put this in the show notes I meant to and I expected John to do it and I should have done my
00:25:50 ◼ ► own homework so I apologize John uh but a lot of people wrote in and said if you turn I'm doing
00:25:55 ◼ ► this off off the top of my head so I might have this factually incorrect so please bear with me
00:25:59 ◼ ► but if my entire life man you're good if you turn on advanced data protection for iCloud then the whole
00:26:07 ◼ ► thing I was worried about where Apple has a key to your iMessages so that they could strictly speaking
00:26:11 ◼ ► unlock them that is not true if you have ADP on if you don't have ADP on then yes they could strictly
00:26:18 ◼ ► speaking get in there if they really tried hard enough but with that advanced data protection on
00:26:22 ◼ ► of several people wrote in to say they can't get in there no matter what and there is a link somewhere
00:26:27 ◼ ► that that details this but again I forgot to put it in the show notes so I'm sorry I intentionally
00:26:31 ◼ ► didn't put that in the notes because I'm like well we've covered that when we talked about advanced
00:26:33 ◼ ► data protection but I guess you don't remember that we talked about that what what I don't even know
00:26:38 ◼ ► what advanced data protection is do we ever remember I'm kidding I'm kidding I'm not that bad oh my god
00:26:42 ◼ ► I'm not that bad for goodness sakes you can troll us forever on that because there's nothing that
00:26:46 ◼ ► you don't remember that we will not think but yes that is that that's why the um who was it
00:26:50 ◼ ► whoever uh Dayton wrote in to remind us like um the the whole thing is like that iCloud backups
00:26:56 ◼ ► that Apple has the key to them if you don't use advanced data protection and saying if you use
00:27:00 ◼ ► iMessages in iCloud your messages aren't in the iCloud backup so it doesn't matter whether they're
00:27:05 ◼ ► protected when we discussed this last time I think we all said that we had chosen not to turn on advanced
00:27:09 ◼ ► data protection because there are downsides to in addition to the the additional protection you you give
00:27:15 ◼ ► and my rationale was I'm much more likely to accidentally lock myself out of my own data
00:27:20 ◼ ► than I am to get hacked by somebody because nobody cares about my crap and so that's why I choose not
00:27:25 ◼ ► to have advanced data protection on uh because I'm more worried about data loss than I am about hacks but
00:27:29 ◼ ► everyone has to make their own choices there and it's nice that Apple gives you that option if you do
00:27:33 ◼ ► enable that it takes away Apple's keys even from your iCloud backups yep all right uh with regard to
00:27:40 ◼ ► iPhone transfers Winnie Lewis writes I feel like Apple pre-populating a new iPhone purchased directly
00:27:45 ◼ ► from them with the iCloud backup of your current iPhone could be an incredible value add for customers
00:27:49 ◼ ► I don't see a technical technical reason why this wouldn't be entirely possible do you this reminds me
00:27:54 ◼ ► very much of Kindles that that come pre-linked to your account which is really freaking nice if I'm honest
00:28:00 ◼ ► with you that being said I don't know how much as much as I agree 100% that this would be amazing
00:28:07 ◼ ► in principle when in execution I'm not so sure would be so great and that's in no small part because
00:28:12 ◼ ► the iCloud backup that's being taken and put onto your phone aside from that being a little bit creepy
00:28:17 ◼ ► that also is going to be what several days a week two weeks old by the time you get your phone in hand
00:28:23 ◼ ► so leaving aside technical challenges I just don't think that would be as good as we think it would be
00:28:29 ◼ ► because these things these devices are always in flux constantly but I don't know convince me I'm wrong
00:28:34 ◼ ► gentlemen well if you use advanced data protection they can't do it they can't put your data on the
00:28:39 ◼ ► phone if you use advanced data protection because how are they going to get your data to put on the
00:28:42 ◼ ► phone they can't get your data they can't put it only you can do that that's the point of it now even
00:28:46 ◼ ► without advanced data protection uh even though they may be able to have access to your iCloud
00:28:50 ◼ ► backups I still imagine there's some things that they couldn't put on there without you like
00:28:54 ◼ ► authenticating because even though they may have the key to your iCloud backups that's just data there
00:28:58 ◼ ► may be other stuff like for example they can't get your iCloud keychain stuff um no matter what
00:29:02 ◼ ► kind of backup thing you use so tech there are technical reasons why they literally can't do
00:29:07 ◼ ► this but the most important reason is even if they could do this from a technical perspective
00:29:11 ◼ ► it's just like the presto presto pizza box thing and putting the thing out like the scale
00:29:16 ◼ ► it we all know how long it takes to do transfers the best case scenario it's you know taking maybe 30
00:29:22 ◼ ► minutes or an hour depending on how much data you have multiply that by how many iPhones are sold like
00:29:26 ◼ ► who how when is this going to happen are you going to pay fleets of people and giant machines to
00:29:31 ◼ ► constantly be running putting these things through and keeping track like it's a huge added expense
00:29:35 ◼ ► they have huge amounts of time and it's just not feasible at the scale that they do things
00:29:39 ◼ ► due to how long it takes to put data on a phone so yes there are technical reasons why it can't be
00:29:46 ◼ ► done and then there are also practical and economical reasons why it can't be done or at least couldn't
00:29:50 ◼ ► be done without charging you like 200 extra dollars and making you wait an extra week for your phone or
00:29:53 ◼ ► whatever yeah also worth pointing out like for amazon to do it for kindles like what's the maximum
00:29:59 ◼ ► surface area of like a bad outcome for that yeah it's worst case scenario is somebody fraudulently
00:30:07 ◼ ► i guess buys a bunch of stuff on your kindle account but that's amazon they can refund that like it's not
00:30:11 ◼ ► that horrible of a thing and and they're probably writing like two bytes to the device too by the way
00:30:16 ◼ ► that's why they can do it like this is your kindle customer id and then when you turn it on it says
00:30:19 ◼ ► oh this is your customer id and it probably makes you log in yeah whereas like think about like the
00:30:24 ◼ ► you know not only the technical side but just like the security risk of apple doing that and somebody
00:30:30 ◼ ► intercepts that phone or even just even just the idea that apple themselves could just kind of instantiate
00:30:35 ◼ ► your phone whenever they wanted to like there's a reason why we have protections and checks and
00:30:41 ◼ ► everything like that you know there's lots of security implications of that and privacy implications that
00:30:44 ◼ ► that would be very dangerous like the way amazon does it it's not super safe but like the again
00:30:52 ◼ ► like the attack the possible attack surface for a kindle being registered to your account like it's not
00:30:57 ◼ ► that terrible compared to your entire iphone very true uh my buddy daniel nelson writes i forgot to do
00:31:05 ◼ ► anything about my test flight apps when moving to my new phone and i was happily surprised to find this
00:31:10 ◼ ► here it replaced them with the app store versions so although i still had to redownload them to get the
00:31:14 ◼ ► test flight version i at least didn't have my home screen positions get messed up daniel's very smart
00:31:19 ◼ ► and a very good guy and i don't think he's wrong my recollection as we've discussed my memory sucks
00:31:24 ◼ ► but i thought that there were gaps in the home screens that there are the couple of home screens
00:31:29 ◼ ► where i had test flight apps but i don't remember them having been populated by full app store apps
00:31:36 ◼ ► so one thing that is not populated by a transfer is developer mode apps like if you just build and run
00:31:42 ◼ ► an xcode and deploy that onto your phone that won't transfer to a new phone no i'm thinking of like
00:31:47 ◼ ► you know overcast day one any app with the dot next to it exactly uh and i could again i'm not trying to
00:31:53 ◼ ► say that daniel's wrong i in fact i'm probably the one that's wrong i mean supposedly watches transfer
00:31:58 ◼ ► to new phones too but we already heard that happens consistently for customers so daniel got lucky
00:32:03 ◼ ► uh but anyways but uh my experience was that at least there were holes in my home screen which i
00:32:08 ◼ ► vastly preferred over the like reshuffling of my home screens uh i think we talked about this on a
00:32:13 ◼ ► member special at some point but i'm down to only a couple of screens now and it's only like 20 apps
00:32:17 ◼ ► total across the two screens because widgets and whatnot but it was still frustrating having to
00:32:21 ◼ ► figure out wait what was the thing there and what was my muscle memory oh right that's where overcast
00:32:25 ◼ ► goes um and this time at least there was a gap so it was easier to figure that out or at least
00:32:29 ◼ ► that's why i remember yeah the gaps used to collapse that was worse back in the day exactly
00:32:33 ◼ ► exactly um but yeah maybe maybe your experiences were better you you daniel and you the the royal you
00:32:39 ◼ ► uh the same nick from above writes i've been doing all manner of iphone migrations and restores many
00:32:44 ◼ ► hundreds if not thousands of times at apple care over the last 13 years and i have strong opinions
00:32:48 ◼ ► about which backup and transfer methods work best for whom finder or itunes backups still offer the most
00:32:54 ◼ ► unique benefits over other methods including you can have an unlimited number of full local backups
00:32:58 ◼ ► hard drive space permitting and they stay in your computer forever until you choose to delete them
00:33:02 ◼ ► not so for icloud you typically get two sometimes three icloud backup dates to choose from and then
00:33:07 ◼ ► you wait too long to restore and if you wait too long to restore excuse me those dates will change
00:33:12 ◼ ► combine this worry with your trade and deadline it can feel very stressful local backups are included in
00:33:18 ◼ ► your time machine backup restoring from finder or itunes backup allows you to front load the most
00:33:22 ◼ ► time consuming process and walk away also finder and itunes errors give you far more information
00:33:28 ◼ ► about what went wrong compared to the other methods and there are more troubleshooting remedies when a
00:33:31 ◼ ► backup or restore fails for pro iphones on a mac it's the second fastest migration assuming you make
00:33:37 ◼ ► the finder itunes backup before you get the new phone in summary and i think nick had said many other
00:33:42 ◼ ► things but in summary icloud is the choice apple clearly wants most people to use it's the practical
00:33:47 ◼ ► choice for almost everyone the best choice for the impatient and or phone addicts uh the least complete
00:33:53 ◼ ► restore method i feel attacked the least complete restore method uh encrypted finder backups and i
00:33:58 ◼ ► include backup in sync is the best choice for nervous or reluctant upgraders the best choice for anyone
00:34:02 ◼ ► doing a trade-in and the most complete backups tied with device to device and finally speaking of device to
00:34:07 ◼ ► device it's the best choice for rural customers to slow internet no computer or apparently if you're in a
00:34:12 ◼ ► car maybe possibly the most complete backups which is tied with encrypted finder backups and the worst
00:34:18 ◼ ► choice for transferring from very old phones my experience is that these devices are not performant
00:34:23 ◼ ► or stable enough to go through a multi-hour device to device transfer without failing over and over
00:34:28 ◼ ► with regard to apple's onboarding impthas writes i loved the conversation about how many questions and
00:34:34 ◼ ► hoops one had to go through to set up new iphones even the airpods pros have this problem back in 2017
00:34:39 ◼ ► when i first got airpods it was magical just open the case next to your phone i was good to go
00:34:43 ◼ ► even when i set up the airpods pro 2 a few years ago it was relatively easy but now it was do you want
00:34:47 ◼ ► conversational awareness do you want personalized audio do you want to test your fit do you want to
00:34:51 ◼ ► take a hearing test etc etc yeah i mean it is getting worse on all products but i think in the case of
00:34:57 ◼ ► airpods part of it that is that the original airpods didn't have a lot of features and now they do
00:35:03 ◼ ► and that's the time when you would expect someone to show you those features like they didn't have
00:35:09 ◼ ► noise cancelling do you want it to be on off or whatever they didn't have it like and again having
00:35:13 ◼ ► a sort of a wizard type thing where it walks you through these steps instead of just saying just
00:35:17 ◼ ► let me use the airpods there probably should be a button for that the phone should probably know if
00:35:22 ◼ ► you've had this the kind of airpods before or if you use this feature before like i said last week
00:35:25 ◼ ► don't show me about noise cancelling if this is my fourth pair of noise cancelling airpods i don't
00:35:29 ◼ ► need to see that but i do think that you're never going to go back to you just open it up and
00:35:35 ◼ ► immediately start going because there's just so many more features on airpods than they used to be
00:35:40 ◼ ► and the number of features in airpods is going up and not down now it does get ridiculous when it's
00:35:44 ◼ ► like you know okay well you got to pick which things you want to show in there what are the most
00:35:48 ◼ ► important features to show the new user of airpods assuming they've never owned airpods before
00:35:52 ◼ ► because eventually it's like do you want to test your heart rate monitor do you want to test the
00:35:56 ◼ ► live translation it's like okay all right it does a lot of things let's just maybe pick three
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00:37:58 ◼ ► uh thought to text and alter ego this is there was this uh overtime overtime yeah um this was the thing
00:38:08 ◼ ► where you can strap some device to your cheek and it will read the muscle movements in your mouth in
00:38:14 ◼ ► order to figure out what you're trying to say doesn't go on your cheek where's i thought it was on your
00:38:18 ◼ ► cheek no no all right shockingly your memory is not accurate well all right side of your head somewhere
00:38:23 ◼ ► it doesn't really matter yeah remember like the guy had it he was sitting in the little lounge chair
00:38:26 ◼ ► i got the thing like on his like uh like his temples kind of by his ears no okay well i'm also in my
00:38:30 ◼ ► defense of being thrown off by this older image which i know is an older image of a much larger thing
00:38:35 ◼ ► that's from april 2018 it says right there in the notes you know i'm doing the best i can here john
00:38:39 ◼ ► not all of us are perfect like you uh all right tell me what firefox the movie from the year of my
00:38:43 ◼ ► birth is that's i i threw that out there during the overtime segment knowing full well none of you would
00:38:49 ◼ ► get it i meant to clarify what it was just people that don't think i was having a stroke or something
00:38:53 ◼ ► but i said think russian uh when we were discussing uh thought uh controlling things with thought the
00:38:59 ◼ ► 1982 movie firefox starring clint eastwood is a movie that was on tv a lot uh that i watched when i
00:39:06 ◼ ► was a kid about a russian spy plane that actually looked pretty cool like that big you know it's kind
00:39:11 ◼ ► of like a cross between the like the the the valkyrie if you know what that is from u.s military and
00:39:16 ◼ ► kind of like an sr-71 anyway um like a black spy plane made by the russians and clint eastwood
00:39:23 ◼ ► uh goes to steal it but when he steals it the plane is controlled by thought but to steal the plane he's
00:39:30 ◼ ► got to think in russian oh my god oh my and i was thinking that like we're really catching up to these
00:39:37 ◼ ► 1982 sci-fi movies because you know if you had like a thought to uh text type interface for doing
00:39:43 ◼ ► something or whatever and it was in russian you'd have to think you'd have to think words in russian
00:39:47 ◼ ► uh anyway that's what that reference was think russian i feel better knowing that piece of
00:39:53 ◼ ► information i watched that movie you know if we keep doing member specials eventually i'll make you
00:39:57 ◼ ► watch terrible 80s movies with me at some point but hard pass my recollection is that it was not a good
00:40:02 ◼ ► movie but when you're a little kid and they have uh clint eastwood flying a spy plane controlled by
00:40:06 ◼ ► thought it was cool i mean conceptually that makes sense but that does not sound fun to me this is a
00:40:11 ◼ ► point of contention with a dear local friend of mine who is in love with like all 80s movies what was
00:40:16 ◼ ► there was some military one you brought up like two or three months ago yes or a teenager gets to
00:40:21 ◼ ► fly an f-16 again these are really appealing movies when you're seven or eight years old right well and
00:40:25 ◼ ► i brought this up with my my local friend brad and he was like oh yeah i love that movie and and i
00:40:29 ◼ ► told him he actually listens to the show so now he's potentially embarrassed or delighted who knows
00:40:34 ◼ ► anyways but i talked to him about this and he's like oh yeah it was great and i was like man
00:40:37 ◼ ► not great did not look good to me great for kids well in his defense i think that was roughly what he
00:40:45 ◼ ► fighter pilot before i realized i was never going to be a fighter pilot because my eyes are terrible
00:40:48 ◼ ► and also i get terrible emotions before i knew all of these things many disqualifying factors
00:40:54 ◼ ► i'm pretty sure the the the eyes are a problem but i'm not sure they're the problem john
00:40:58 ◼ ► uh yeah yeah all right uh then we have some information from hans who writes alter ego seems
00:41:05 ◼ ► to have been an mit project first and very suspiciously the man in the alter ego video doesn't
00:41:10 ◼ ► show the left side of his head it might look more like this and this was the image that i was talking
00:41:14 ◼ ► about uh that was distracting me about the cheek thing and uh we will put a link to the show notes
00:41:19 ◼ ► to a post on the mit i guess like media lab media center something along those lines uh where they
00:41:25 ◼ ► talk about this and again to john's point from april of 2018 yeah and you couldn't see the side of the
00:41:32 ◼ ► person's face but you could see enough of their face to know that i think that their sensors were only
00:41:36 ◼ ► like sort of over your ears again kind of like a bone induction headphone this thing had a sensor that
00:41:41 ◼ ► was touching your chin like underneath your lower lip i think that would have been visible if that
00:41:45 ◼ ► was in the video but i think they've just using they're not using sensors in that location for the
00:41:50 ◼ ► alter ego demo video anyway that is true uh cj writes i'm a doctor slash neurologist with and
00:41:56 ◼ ► neuroscience researcher i was listening to your overtime discussion of the alter ego device and agree that
00:42:01 ◼ ► it would be very unlikely to be able to reliably read brain signals or eeg my group is trying to
00:42:06 ◼ ► analyze walking in parkinson's disease patients with electrodes deep in the brain or with 64
00:42:11 ◼ ► carefully placed contacts on the scalp and that is hard enough in lab conditions there's always way
00:42:16 ◼ ► too much noise and so a consumer device with very limited contact area to the scalp is unlikely to get
00:42:21 ◼ ► enough usable eeg signal to work even with ai noise suppression so it makes sense when i looked into it that
00:42:27 ◼ ► it appears to be that the device is only measuring muscle signals emg in the here we go in the temporomandibular
00:42:36 ◼ ► joint oh i think i got it all right look at me go uh older versions of the device had more contacts
00:42:40 ◼ ► targeting the mouth and tongue so they appear to have refined it since then see the video which we
00:42:45 ◼ ► will link in the show notes uh electromyography or emg is a technique for evaluating and recording the
00:42:51 ◼ ► electrical activity produced by skeletal muscles we'll put a link to the wikipedia page in the show
00:42:55 ◼ ► notes and additionally um in electroencephalography eeg is a method to record an electrogram of the
00:43:03 ◼ ► spontaneous electrical activity in the brain holy jamolies i can't believe i'm mostly keeping this
00:43:09 ◼ ► together so many syllables yeah but that's that's the distinction i was trying to make but i didn't
00:43:12 ◼ ► know these terms when we talked about it emg versus eeg uh continuing from cj reading emg signals is
00:43:18 ◼ ► much easier as the muscles are only millimeters away and have much less noise maybe there are some
00:43:21 ◼ ► accelerometers as well therefore there's no potential for reading thoughts as noted in the
00:43:26 ◼ ► video it's unclear to me whether or not the tiny movements associated with silent speech
00:43:29 ◼ ► they are reading are unintentional or need to be developed as a technique to use the device
00:43:34 ◼ ► given the sensors and location of the demonstrated device i see no reason the sensors could not be
00:43:38 ◼ ► placed in glasses arms or indeed in the airpods pro see he doesn't know the technical term for the
00:43:43 ◼ ► glasses arms but now we do now who's a scientist yeah sticks uh they're called temples uh the basic
00:43:50 ◼ ► signal processing is much less complicated than the audio processing the airpods already do and then the
00:43:55 ◼ ► ai could presumably run on the iphone if it is working on emg signals i would not expect that the
00:44:00 ◼ ► interpretation would be much more complicated than audio to speech in regards to john's question of
00:44:04 ◼ ► being able to measure intention to act or speak which these devices are not doing this is a well
00:44:09 ◼ ► established research methodology and neuroscience particularly in functional mri we're able to
00:44:14 ◼ ► see the main motor areas light up in a functional mri scan when a patient imagines walking and we see
00:44:20 ◼ ► how it is different with different diseases such as parkinson's but yes it has was has more recently
00:44:25 ◼ ► been shown that further networks are engaged when a movement actually occurs compared to when only
00:44:29 ◼ ► imagined yeah so i'm still interested in these things in the emg uh muscle thing especially since well
00:44:39 ◼ ► the thing that the alter ego was doing could be done in an airpod uh or glasses uh of course the uh
00:44:45 ◼ ► the meta ray-ban glasses have the wrist strap that is also an emg measuring thing it's measuring the
00:44:50 ◼ ► you know electrical signals to the muscles in your fingers to tell what fingers you're moving that
00:44:55 ◼ ► product is out now um and then we'll probably have a story next week about the late breaking thing that
00:44:59 ◼ ► happened today about uh apple's plans to compete with uh meta's uh glasses and whether or not they'll have
00:45:06 ◼ ► some kind of emg reading aspect to it or whether it will just be airpods on long sticks with uh cameras
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00:47:00 ◼ ► uh let's continue with our first impressions and i have nothing to say about this because i have only
00:47:09 ◼ ► barely interacted with them but i presume tina has gotten a tech woven case yeah that was her first
00:47:14 ◼ ► she's always willing to try that whatever the new case is from apple she actually got the fine woven
00:47:18 ◼ ► case and used it for the entire two years that she had the phone it's pretty rough looking but you know
00:47:23 ◼ ► she thought it was fine uh it came in a color that she liked she didn't mind how it felt she didn't mind
00:47:28 ◼ ► that the edges got nicked up or whatever um so when the tech woven case is out it's all right we'll try that
00:47:33 ◼ ► uh she uh is a wallet person like a mag safe wallet person so she puts it on the back of her phone she
00:47:41 ◼ ► keeps her cards and her driver's license and stuff in there and so she got the whatever it's i guess
00:47:46 ◼ ► it's still the fine woven wallet right it's the tech woven case but the fine woven wallet it's a very
00:47:52 ◼ ► confusing line but she got both of those uh and the tech woven case i've checked it out she put her phone
00:47:58 ◼ ► on it and i'm it's very it's very sort of scratchy and like the bumps on it are very regular i don't
00:48:05 ◼ ► know if you've if you've seen in a person you felt how it's what it's like it's it's kind of plasticky
00:48:09 ◼ ► uh it's you know it's not fine woven the weaving is very coarse it's not fine uh but whatever it is it's
00:48:16 ◼ ► like lumpy plastic so it's like lots and lots of little lumps and the problem with that is that it
00:48:23 ◼ ► provides the mag safe wallet with less surface area where it is contacting the case and that
00:48:29 ◼ ► results in less friction and so she rejected and returned the tech woven case based entirely on
00:48:37 ◼ ► the fact that the wallet slid off sideways too easily because it didn't have the friction it wasn't it
00:48:43 ◼ ► wasn't like the surface area like it's touching a tech woven case but it's only touching the tips of
00:48:47 ◼ ► all the tiny little mountains in the tech woven case and that doesn't provide no we did an experiment
00:48:51 ◼ ► you know of all the different surface materials so that got rejected she got an apple silicone case
00:48:57 ◼ ► because she wanted to try the the body strap lanyard whatever the thing cross body strap and
00:49:03 ◼ ► apple's cases have the little attachment points for that that was interesting because i was wondering
00:49:07 ◼ ► about this from seeing the pictures either you have the cross body strap no i touched one extremely
00:49:12 ◼ ► briefly at the apple store and it seemed nice but i didn't like put it on or anything like that so
00:49:17 ◼ ► that you you now know everything i know about them yeah so she was willing to try that as well
00:49:22 ◼ ► because like oh maybe that'll be fun and of course apple's cases have the little corner things on it
00:49:25 ◼ ► if you've seen it in the store or the pictures of you know that the things attached to the corner of
00:49:30 ◼ ► apple's cases by these very very thin i forget what they're made of someone sent us the name of what
00:49:36 ◼ ► i think it's a very thin strong like thread type material uh and i was wondering like you know how
00:49:45 ◼ ► how easy is it to take that on or off like do you have to like you know tie it onto the case and then it's
00:49:51 ◼ ► there permanently or whatever the answer is that the the attachment things on the cross body scrap
00:49:58 ◼ ► have a little like metal bar and then the cross body strap wraps around that bar and snaps on the
00:50:03 ◼ ► other side of it to itself so it holds the bar and the bar has the string coming out of it so you can
00:50:09 ◼ ► pretty easily unstrap uh unsnap the cross body strap on both ends and then remove your phone but now your
00:50:16 ◼ ► phone has two little metal cross bars dangling from it by about an inch of very thin string so i don't think
00:50:23 ◼ ► anyone would want to use their phone like that so you basically have to take the case off and unthread
00:50:29 ◼ ► the threads the other thing is to get those threads it's a loop of threads it's just you know it's like
00:50:33 ◼ ► a metal bar with a loop of thread and that loop does not come out of the metal bar it is in the metal
00:50:38 ◼ ► bar there's no way to remove it so to get it through the little thing you have to uh if you have big
00:50:43 ◼ ► cameras uh marco knows about this maybe also casey the way the the camera straps attach to most cameras
00:50:48 ◼ ► with the little loop that you loop through and then you put the strap through the loop you know
00:50:51 ◼ ► i don't know how to describe it but anyway um you don't have to it's a continuous loop and you just
00:50:57 ◼ ► loop it over on itself but she had to use a needle threader to get it through the case because she
00:51:03 ◼ ► couldn't get like you're trying to like it's just like a loop of thread and you're trying to shove it
00:51:06 ◼ ► through she can get through the first hole but then get it to make a u-turn and go through the second
00:51:11 ◼ ► hole to come back out she couldn't do it and had to use a needle threader so that was a little bit
00:51:14 ◼ ► unuser-friendly and it really you really are committing to the cross body strap because like i said
00:51:18 ◼ ► the only way to get it off is to take your phone out of the case and then carefully unthread those
00:51:24 ◼ ► things and you know pass the bar through the little thing and it's just it's not a simple uh maneuver
00:51:29 ◼ ► so i think there's room for improvement on the cross body strap in terms of ease of connecting and
00:51:33 ◼ ► disconnecting from the case i'm not sure what the solution is but the first try it seems yeah uh the
00:51:38 ◼ ► strap itself is fine it's magnetic to itself anyway uh so she replaced her tech woven case with the apple
00:51:43 ◼ ► silicone case which she's used many times before she's destroyed many of those came in a fun color
00:51:47 ◼ ► the wallet the fine one the new final wallet sticks to it way way better and also i suggested to her
00:51:53 ◼ ► you know if you don't like the tech woven and you're just so so about the silicone what about a leather
00:51:57 ◼ ► case so she got the bull strap leather case and also she was uh won over by the uh marketing of the
00:52:03 ◼ ► uh bull strap uh leather wallet which is a find my device so it's thicker than a regular wallet but it has
00:52:10 ◼ ► an actual kind of like air tag type thing in the wallet itself as opposed to just the apple thing
00:52:14 ◼ ► where when it comes off the phone knows where it fell off and we'll tell you about it this actually
00:52:18 ◼ ► has an air tag in the wallet so leather uh bull strap case with leather wallet on it very good friction
00:52:24 ◼ ► between the two of them harder to slide off sideways i think the best friction is probably her
00:52:28 ◼ ► old sort of broken in leather she had a leather wallet back when an apple leather wallet she has one of
00:52:34 ◼ ► those it's very well broken in that on the back of leather case or that on the back of a
00:52:38 ◼ ► silicone case is probably the strongest attachment but uh that's that's her review slash my conveying
00:52:44 ◼ ► of her thoughts on all of the cases i thought the bull strap case was nice she got it in a weird like
00:52:49 ◼ ► pinkish leather color uh which is not to my taste but she likes it but i thought it was kind of bulky
00:52:53 ◼ ► um we should put a link in the show notes to steven robla's um uh leather iphone case review uh
00:53:01 ◼ ► he also mentioned that some cases are thicker or thinner than others even though they're all just leather
00:53:06 ◼ ► cases they're not like it's like you know whatever that plastic shell or something leather wrapped
00:53:11 ◼ ► around it they vary in thickness uh significantly but she likes the leather one that's the one she's
00:53:15 ◼ ► using but she also has the silicone one for the crossbody strap which i'm not sure how often she'll
00:53:20 ◼ ► use that because currently the silicone case is sitting on the desk behind me and it does not have
00:53:24 ◼ ► those little dangly strap things on it and if she wants to put them on she needs to use a needle
00:53:27 ◼ ► threader so i don't see that happening that often but for this year i would say tech woven is
00:53:32 ◼ ► more successful than fine woven with the caveat that if you're going to put a wallet on it you're
00:53:38 ◼ ► going to get less friction all right i will say also um i my iphone 17 pro case situation is not
00:53:47 ◼ ► resolved yet um i have i really enjoyed last year i really enjoyed the nomad magnetic leather back
00:53:58 ◼ ► and you could feel the leather on the sides just like you know kind of because it's it goes to the
00:54:04 ◼ ► edge of the phone but it wasn't wrapped around the side so it gave a lot of grip and made it you know
00:54:09 ◼ ► more stable on a surface and it would you know it wouldn't slide off of slanted things and you know
00:54:14 ◼ ► it really improved the ergonomics of the phone but you were still using like the naked sides of the
00:54:20 ◼ ► phone which was really nice for like having the nice buttons and being able to see the the side
00:54:24 ◼ ► finish and everything i ordered one of these for the 17 pro and unfortunately because of the shape
00:54:32 ◼ ► of the mesa that which now goes or the plateau which now goes all the way across the nomad it has a
00:54:39 ◼ ► magnet in the middle on the magazine area and it has those like micro suction uh tape patches on the
00:54:45 ◼ ► corners well it used to have one on the upper corner like adjacent to the camera plateau um but now
00:54:52 ◼ ► there's no room for that because the you know the mesa or the plateau goes all the way across
00:54:55 ◼ ► it only has those sticky pad corners like on the flat part of the phone area which and i posted a
00:55:04 ◼ ► quick little video to mastodon the problem is then there's nothing holding the case back against the
00:55:10 ◼ ► phone along the top edge above the mesa so it kind of just like flaps in the breeze like it creates a
00:55:17 ◼ ► gap it doesn't sit flush you know stuff will get stuck in there so it's basically in my opinion the
00:55:23 ◼ ► nomad magnet back is unusable on the 17 pro so i actually returned it like i'm like this i i cannot
00:55:34 ◼ ► and it's a shame because i loved it on the 16 pro and what i'm doing right now i believe i mentioned last
00:55:39 ◼ ► episode that until my 17 cases come in i just cut the top off of my my 16 pro leatherback from nomad
00:55:48 ◼ ► and just so it rests under the camera bump and i've just been using that it's not this is not a good
00:55:53 ◼ ► solution it doesn't line up correctly in the bottom edge it looks ridiculous um but it does provide a lot
00:55:59 ◼ ► of grip so this is what i'm still doing um i've ordered a couple other things to try they're not here
00:56:06 ◼ ► yet um so more to come in the future but the iphone 17 pro case story remains um unsolved for me i will
00:56:15 ◼ ► say i did handle a tech woven case in the apple store and i thought it was very nice and in fact um
00:56:22 ◼ ► they they seem to be selling very well because the apple stores that i keep uh like walking by like i'll
00:56:29 ◼ ► breeze in and see like i was in grand central earlier today i looked at theirs and uh they're sold out
00:56:34 ◼ ► of most of the good tech woven colors for most phone models the tech woven cases seem to be doing
00:56:41 ◼ ► very well with iphone buyers um so there's something there i i i do think i will probably end up preferring
00:56:48 ◼ ► something else but uh again time will tell all right who has an iphone 17 in the family that
00:56:55 ◼ ► apparently has some thoughts yeah well i mean they're sitting on the desk right next to me
00:56:59 ◼ ► they're still in their boxes like i haven't had much experience with them so i guess i don't have
00:57:04 ◼ ► much to say about that i wondered what the timing was with uh when my kids would be getting these but
00:57:08 ◼ ► apparently they're going to wait until um uh their uh fall break in october so these i i did take the
00:57:15 ◼ ► phones out of the box and put their cases on them just because that's i like to get the phone into the
00:57:20 ◼ ► case before the phone is covered with fingerprints whereas no one else in my family cares about that at
00:57:25 ◼ ► all so they will take the phone out and handle it for 15 minutes and then take the uh food encrusted
00:57:29 ◼ ► fingerprint front covered thing and stick it inside a clear case so i got them directly out of the box
00:57:35 ◼ ► immediately into the clear case barely even touching it uh and my son's got a silicone case so they're all
00:57:39 ◼ ► ready to go uh waiting for their uh uh their phones to come to do a data transfer uh but no they're nice
00:57:47 ◼ ► they look nice they're normal they have you know i have nothing exciting to say about them they are
00:57:52 ◼ ► extremely unsurprising but they haven't yet been set up all right airpods pro 3 marco remind me you did
00:57:59 ◼ ► get a pair i assume i did okay um would you like to start or shall i i really don't care either way
00:58:05 ◼ ► um okay oh i returned them oh interesting why is that all right so this i did not expect this i'll tell you
00:58:16 ◼ ► that um by all accounts they they are much better on paper they do have significantly better noise
00:58:26 ◼ ► cancellation which is impressive because it was already like for any earbuds it even the twos were
00:58:31 ◼ ► already pretty good um but the threes were even better the sound quality is indeed better i wouldn't say
00:58:40 ◼ ► it's like you know world changing better it's still not to the level of full-size headphones but it does
00:58:45 ◼ ► come a lot closer um and and they are certainly good enough that like by noise cancellation and sound
00:58:51 ◼ ► quality metrics alone barring other factors i would not recommend anybody ever get like the airpods max
00:59:00 ◼ ► for instance like i think the airpods pro 3 if they fit you and if they're comfortable and if they fit
00:59:05 ◼ ► you're you know for other like if if they work physically for you i think they're the better
00:59:10 ◼ ► product in every possible way they sound great they have the best everything like feature wise
00:59:17 ◼ ► they're way ahead um my problem is the airpods pro 3 fit very differently than the twos this is not
00:59:27 ◼ ► like a little tweak like you know one from airpods pro one to two as far as i can tell there was no
00:59:32 ◼ ► fit difference um from two to three this might as well be a different product like this is a very
00:59:37 ◼ ► different fit did you lose the ear lottery i did so and now so here's so i guess i can count myself
00:59:45 ◼ ► lucky that i have had a pretty good ear situation with the airpods pro 2 but not with the original
00:59:50 ◼ ► airpods right so you've been on and off with the ear lottery yeah um the so the threes fit very
00:59:57 ◼ ► differently mainly the threes have the the ear tip seems to go further into your ear and it seems to
01:00:06 ◼ ► you know push harder against your inner ear so it does come with different size tips i tried i it
01:00:14 ◼ ► starts out with medium and then it has like small and extra small and i i kept going down in size
01:00:20 ◼ ► whenever i like i would try like try for a couple hours on one size it's a little uncomfortable and like
01:00:25 ◼ ► you know maybe the next day i'd you know reset my ears next day put new tips on try it again
01:00:31 ◼ ► and there was no ear tip combination that i found that made these not just hurt after a couple hours
01:00:40 ◼ ► of wearing and that is a problem for me and every time i you know i put them in i'd be like
01:00:46 ◼ ► kind of kind of hurts kind of uncomfortable but let's see what let me give it a shot i would try
01:00:53 ◼ ► adjusting i try wiggling them different angles you know every adjustment i could make there is no
01:00:59 ◼ ► combination that didn't result in pain after you know generally about an hour or two uh and the twos
01:01:07 ◼ ► i've the twos don't hurt at all ever they have never in never in a thousand years have the twos hurt
01:01:12 ◼ ► the threes just hurt my ears and i think they aren't as secure in my ears either and again i've tried
01:01:19 ◼ ► tried different ear tips tried different angles they i couldn't get them to fall out but they
01:01:24 ◼ ► seemed they felt less secure so i mean it could just be psychological um but they do not work for
01:01:32 ◼ ► me uh and then every time like when i would when i would go back to my airpods pros twos uh you know
01:01:38 ◼ ► after my ears would hurt i'd give them a break and go back to the twos so i could continue operating in
01:01:42 ◼ ► my life uh and the twos it's like going home to like a well-worn couch you know it's like
01:01:48 ◼ ► the twos fit so comfortably for me it's a night and day difference and so i don't really know what
01:01:57 ◼ ► to do like i think the threes if there were no other products like this if i didn't have the twos if the
01:02:05 ◼ ► twos never existed i might buy the threes and just use them for short times because like the feature
01:02:10 ◼ ► set is that compelling but as long as my twos continue to work i'm going to continue to use
01:02:15 ◼ ► them it's kind of like we like our discussion about the uh the natural scrolling direction on
01:02:19 ◼ ► apple's mice and trackpads like i can still use the old ones so i'm going to keep using them because i
01:02:24 ◼ ► like them way better they work way better for me they don't sell the twos anymore do they uh they
01:02:28 ◼ ► don't but amazon does and they're on sale so i got myself a second i got myself a backup pair
01:02:32 ◼ ► you didn't think about getting a third party ear tips for the three because the maybe you just don't
01:02:38 ◼ ► like the ones with the foam embedded in them i do so the way that they are achieving the better
01:02:43 ◼ ► isolation and the better base response is with better physical blockage of the ear canal from
01:02:49 ◼ ► the outside world that's how like they don't you know the noise cancellation they're doing some
01:02:53 ◼ ► electronic things with feedback and everything like that's part of noise cancellation but a huge
01:02:58 ◼ ► part of why it got better is they are much more aggressively sealing out the outside world
01:03:04 ◼ ► with the fit i i think it's going deeper in the ear it certainly is like sealing against the walls of
01:03:11 ◼ ► the ear harder it's like pushing harder against the walls of the ear whatever it is they have they
01:03:17 ◼ ► have significantly changed the weighty's fit to to be further into my ears and it just it's doesn't
01:03:26 ◼ ► work for me it doesn't work and so again i i don't i hope the two continue to work for a while
01:03:31 ◼ ► it and to answer your question john like i don't think i don't think third party ear tips would
01:03:37 ◼ ► actually fix my problem because it isn't that the ear tips aren't soft enough it's that they're
01:03:43 ◼ ► they're they move them like they they sit differently in my ear in a place that is far more intrusive and
01:03:49 ◼ ► invasive and far less comfortable and causes pain after a while what if you got third party ear tips
01:03:53 ◼ ► that were half the depth i don't know if they would fit or if they would keep them in my ears
01:03:58 ◼ ► if they if they like you know put them further out i don't know i'm i were you afraid of staying within
01:04:04 ◼ ► the return window because i'm kind of shocked that you return these without the opportunity to buy more
01:04:08 ◼ ► stuff which is i bought i bought these 17 third party ear tips to see which one see if anyone fix the
01:04:12 ◼ ► problem honestly i wouldn't at this point i wouldn't trust third party ear tips for the airpods pros
01:04:18 ◼ ► threes to really exist yet that were any that were at all like reasonably considered um so like maybe
01:04:24 ◼ ► and maybe i'll try in a few months to look around but again like right now like well my twos work great
01:04:29 ◼ ► so i kind of i think i'm just going to sit this generation out and see what happens um i and i'm
01:04:35 ◼ ► really honestly i'm really disappointed to have to do that because again the rest of it i do like the
01:04:41 ◼ ► increased noise cancellation although that's obviously if that comes at the cost of blowing
01:04:45 ◼ ► up my ears maybe i don't like that i do like the better sound quality that's nice i like the fact
01:04:50 ◼ ► that the new ones are water resistant like there's a lot that i wish i could enjoy about the new ones
01:04:55 ◼ ► so i am ecstatic to report that i have yet to lose the ear lottery um as i knock on wood because my time
01:05:05 ◼ ► will come um in terms of fitment uh i think these fit me just fine there's definitely a tighter seal
01:05:14 ◼ ► against my ear canal um i wouldn't say it's uncomfortable but for me uh i wouldn't say it's
01:05:21 ◼ ► uncomfortable but it is noticeably tighter and the tips give less that sounds like an indictment
01:05:27 ◼ ► and i actually don't mean it as such it's fine for me but it is noticeably different that being said
01:05:34 ◼ ► the anc well let me back up a half step the reviews that i initially read or watched was that oh my god
01:05:42 ◼ ► these things are perfect i cannot believe how great they are i will i would buy a million of them if i
01:05:46 ◼ ► could you know from i forget who like mkbhd had a really good review i feel like there were a couple
01:05:55 ◼ ► i my opinion is more tempered than that these are an improvement for sure and there are a couple
01:06:03 ◼ ► of ways that i think they're a vast improvement but i would temper one's expectations if you have not
01:06:09 ◼ ► yet bought these and are looking to buy them they are better and for me i'm getting into a usbc case
01:06:14 ◼ ► which is chef's kiss even though i almost never charge the case with a cable it is still so nice to
01:06:20 ◼ ► have one less lightning thing in my life and if you're the kind of person like me that uses air
01:06:25 ◼ ► pods on and off all day long pretty much every day it's i guess to some degree it is an absolute win
01:06:31 ◼ ► unless you lose the ear lottery but the anc i would say it's better i wouldn't say it's dramatically
01:06:38 ◼ ► better now it is possible that maybe i need to use different tips i did do an ear what is an ear fit test
01:06:44 ◼ ► whatever they call it and it said they were fine but i haven't actually tried any of the other tips yet so
01:06:50 ◼ ► perhaps going up a size or something like that would increase the um the isolation and maybe that
01:06:55 ◼ ► would make it worlds better but i just used i've only used the stock tips or the standard ones that
01:07:01 ◼ ► were attached to them when they came out of the case and the anc is good uh when i was on the plane back
01:07:07 ◼ ► from memphis i went back and forth with my twos and my threes and the threes were better but you know
01:07:13 ◼ ► i heard some people talk about how like the plane just disappeared and i feel like maybe i heard jason
01:07:19 ◼ ► talk about that i might have that yeah jason said that um i wouldn't say that was my experience which
01:07:24 ◼ ► i'm not trying to say he's wrong i'm just talking about what i have experienced hear that jason keeps
01:07:29 ◼ ► saying you're wrong do you have um uh you have currently or have you had a pair of over ear noise
01:07:36 ◼ ► cancelling headphones to compare with on plane flights not in probably 15 years when the technology
01:07:40 ◼ ► speaking of like uh the the extra bit of foam uh blocking sound and wedging itself in your ear
01:07:49 ◼ ► for your ear and i i haven't tried and again i don't like things in my ear holes so i don't use
01:07:55 ◼ ► the little earbuds but i always do wonder about uh the trade-offs on a plane in particular because
01:07:59 ◼ ► you're there for a long time there's a there's like an obvious drone noise that you would want
01:08:03 ◼ ► to cancel out i use the over ear ones but over ear ones can make your head sweaty and even they can
01:08:08 ◼ ► press on your face and like be uncomfortable after hours but i also don't like things in my ear holes
01:08:12 ◼ ► and i i know lots of people who swear by the pros on the plane as great noise canceling or whatever i'm
01:08:17 ◼ ► like but but how could something that tiny cancel it but i guess if they just wedge themselves in
01:08:21 ◼ ► your ear holes uh well enough they can get the job done but that's why i was wondering if you were
01:08:25 ◼ ► comparing the twos and the threes if you had a pair of over ear uh cancelling headphones to compare to
01:08:29 ◼ ► both of those how they compared but i guess i mean over ears can can usually do significantly better on
01:08:34 ◼ ► planes for the actual noise cancellation but when like the reason why i don't carry over ears on planes
01:08:39 ◼ ► anymore is that they're huge like they they take up your entire carry-on bag and like the earphones
01:08:46 ◼ ► sony's come in a really small case they fold up real small it's nice yeah but it's it's nothing
01:08:51 ◼ ► i i have the sony's i know what you're talking about yes obviously the airpods are are smaller but
01:08:56 ◼ ► although i will you know we did note that the airpods 3 case actually got a little bigger so if we just
01:09:00 ◼ ► graph only just in the year 2162 the airpods case will be bigger than the sony headphones it's
01:09:06 ◼ ► nothing it is nothing like what you think like it is so like that it is so comically small
01:09:12 ◼ ► like the the airpods pro case versus the the headphones my wife has airpods pro i know how
01:09:17 ◼ ► big it is i'm making a joke it's making it's like an infinite timeline joke extrapolating look at the
01:09:21 ◼ ► graph oh my god all right well it's worth noting and i think i've said this before but my airpods when
01:09:27 ◼ ► i'm when it's jeans season which we are quickly angling into jeans season here in richmond
01:09:32 ◼ ► my airpods live in my little change pocket on my right side you know what i'm talking about like
01:09:37 ◼ ► the little baby pocket on your right hand side that at least for boys anyway the ipod nano pocket
01:09:40 ◼ ► yeah the ipod nano pocket exactly that's where my airpods live and um and they're always on me they're
01:09:47 ◼ ► basically always on me and i would not have the and i know you're kidding but i would not have those
01:09:52 ◼ ► sony's always on me and honestly i'd rather not even have them in my carry-on if i could avoid it
01:09:56 ◼ ► uh because i half the time i have my stupid vision pro in here talk about something that takes a lot
01:10:00 ◼ ► of room in your carry exactly um but anyways the sony headphones and the vision pro case you're not
01:10:05 ◼ ► wrong uh the anc it was better it was not to me night and day better um and in general like i mowed
01:10:12 ◼ ► the i mowed the yard today and you know it definitely dramatically reduced or i guess attenuated i think
01:10:18 ◼ ► is the technical word i'm looking for the volume of the uh lawnmower but i would not say it disappeared
01:10:23 ◼ ► by any stretch of the imagination which again makes me wonder if i should try some of the larger sizes
01:10:28 ◼ ► and see if they fit and if they work better etc but it's not a regression i don't think but the fact
01:10:33 ◼ ► that i'm saying i don't think is probably not a good sign um also in the case which by the way is indeed
01:10:39 ◼ ► bigger but is so barely bigger that i mean i it's hard i i can only notice when i'm holding both of them
01:10:47 ◼ ► at the same time like otherwise i can't really tell the difference uh but what's interesting about them
01:10:52 ◼ ► is in the airpods pro 2 the tips are angled fairly steeply i would say at a glance it's at like a i
01:11:00 ◼ ► don't know i don't know i was gonna say like a 45 degree angle i think that's a bit dramatic but
01:11:05 ◼ ► they're angled if as they're sitting in the case they're angled down and pointing toward the center
01:11:10 ◼ ► of the case whereas these point almost laterally like they're almost at a 90 degree angle it's hard
01:11:16 ◼ ► to do this you know i'm trying to paint a word picture and i'm probably not doing the greatest job but
01:11:20 ◼ ► they sit very differently in the case which also means they wiggle quite a bit more in the case
01:11:24 ◼ ► it's not a big deal and i am 100 nitpicking but i see i i noticed it enough that i find it
01:11:30 ◼ ► lightly off-putting that being said there are two things that oh i'm sorry there's one other complaint
01:11:37 ◼ ► i have than two absolute compliments uh connected i believe it was mentioned this but the light for
01:11:43 ◼ ► the like charging and already charged and pairing and all that it used to have like a cutout
01:11:49 ◼ ► in the front of the case where the light would shine through now it just shines through the case which
01:11:54 ◼ ► makes for a better look generally speaking but mother of god this light is so bright yeah it is
01:12:01 ◼ ► a lot brighter ridiculously bright which 99.9 percent of the time does not matter but i opened the case
01:12:08 ◼ ► once when aaron was asleep and i happened to have the uh the case pointed in her general direction and i
01:12:13 ◼ ► was like oh jesus christ you know like i didn't want to wake her up and i'm being a little bit
01:12:17 ◼ ► hyperbolic but truly the light is ridiculously bright and i'm pretty sure they talked about
01:12:21 ◼ ► that on connected um a couple of really good things though number one the bass response to my ears
01:12:28 ◼ ► is night and day better i never thought the bass was bad in the airpod pro airpods pro 2 airpod pros
01:12:35 ◼ ► 2 whatever you know what i'm saying um i think it is worlds better in this one where the the twos
01:12:42 ◼ ► it sounded good but it almost sounded i don't know how to verbalize it but it almost sounded like
01:12:48 ◼ ► an interpretation of where the bass was and what the bass should sound like whereas the threes this is
01:12:56 ◼ ► what bass actually sounds like and for some like perhaps marco and i don't mean that to be snarky i'm
01:13:01 ◼ ► being genuine perhaps for you you would find that off-putting because i know or at least my recollection
01:13:06 ◼ ► is that you generally don't care for bass heavy uh mixes i i'm not say that okay fair enough um i i
01:13:13 ◼ ► don't like you know beat style mixes where it's just but uh but i i don't i don't dislike a more
01:13:21 ◼ ► bass heavy mix and the bass in these seems much more airy in a good way seems like the sound stage
01:13:28 ◼ ► seems much wider is particularly with regard to bass i think the bass sounds incredible that is a vast
01:13:35 ◼ ► improvement over over the old ones and i again did not i would not have said oh yes the bass needs to
01:13:40 ◼ ► get considerably better in the twos i i never would have thought that but now having had the threes
01:13:44 ◼ ► it got significantly better one thing i'll say on that so you know bass response in headphones
01:13:51 ◼ ► especially like in in tiny headphones like this bass response really needs a good seal and so you
01:13:58 ◼ ► you will you will have different people have very different reactions to it that's that might explain
01:14:02 ◼ ► why like you know you you were saying like to you it's a big difference and some people have reported
01:14:07 ◼ ► it's a small difference or they don't notice the difference bass like good bass you need a good
01:14:11 ◼ ► seal and and again this this is kind of what they did with the with their design choices here with three
01:14:16 ◼ ► is like they went for a much stronger seal to get better bass response and to get better noise
01:14:22 ◼ ► cancellation at the possible expense of comfort for a lot of people and and fit challenges um so you know
01:14:27 ◼ ► whether that was their idea for them it depends on whether it fits you or not um but but that is the
01:14:32 ◼ ► trade-off there um i'll say also on the treble response like so i've heard i've seen and heard a lot of
01:14:38 ◼ ► people complaining that the pro threes sound too harsh or too sharp or interesting or you know i've heard
01:14:47 ◼ ► like too digital or like too crisp oh i wouldn't say that those are all different ways of saying the same
01:14:53 ◼ ► thing those are all different ways of saying they have too much treble for you and i did notice that
01:14:58 ◼ ► the treble response is very noticeably stronger than the twos and treble response is a very personal
01:15:06 ◼ ► thing and like what you want out of your headphones and if you look at high-end headphone reviews all
01:15:11 ◼ ► over they're all over the place because each reviewer wants a different amount of treble response and
01:15:17 ◼ ► you know what you hear is you'll hear people who who think that they're listening to too much treble
01:15:22 ◼ ► they'll describe it as like fatiguing or again sharp or harsh um and people who you know are listening
01:15:29 ◼ ► to something with bad treble response or low treble response they'll describe it as like warm this sounds
01:15:34 ◼ ► warm what that means is it's kind of muffled there's not a lot of treble like it but it's very relaxing and
01:15:40 ◼ ► you know a low treble kind of warmer tone is less fatiguing to your ears over a long time so it's
01:15:47 ◼ ► it's nice you get you but you hear a little bit less detail and high energy and high high christmas in
01:15:53 ◼ ► the energy um so anyway what they've done with with threes is they've pushed that treble i i would say and i
01:15:59 ◼ ► i like a lot of treble i think they've pushed it as high as they can and still be within the realm of
01:16:07 ◼ ► what i like it's almost too much for me and i love treble so i i think what they should probably do
01:16:15 ◼ ► is give some kind of control over this it's impossible marco we don't have the technology
01:16:21 ◼ ► how could you change the amount of different frequencies coming out of a speaker they'll
01:16:25 ◼ ► have to invent something i guess right and like and that's the thing like when when airpods were not
01:16:29 ◼ ► able to produce a lot of treble response because they just weren't good enough yet this wasn't a
01:16:34 ◼ ► problem they were able to have no sound adjustment whatsoever because no sound that their airpods
01:16:41 ◼ ► could produce was potentially offensive or objectionable to anybody it was not good enough
01:16:46 ◼ ► to be offensive but now as they as they are getting higher fidelity higher response stronger bass response
01:16:53 ◼ ► stronger treble response less drop-off at those extremes in the in their frequency response
01:16:57 ◼ ► all of their competitors in the like nice headphone the nice bluetooth headphone to the nice noise
01:17:04 ◼ ► cancelling headphone space they all offer audio tone controls through their apps every single one of
01:17:10 ◼ ► them you can customize the amount of treble mid-range bass that you can you know some of them are pretty
01:17:14 ◼ ► simplistic some of them you can you know have like a whole parametric eq but like they all offer
01:17:19 ◼ ► customization why because people want different things out of their sound profile i think that i think that
01:17:27 ◼ ► apple has outgrown now now that now that their headphones have gotten really good at general you know sound
01:17:34 ◼ ► response across the whole spectrum they've outgrown the idea that they can just have like one tone that
01:17:40 ◼ ► they just let everyone have and i think they've outgrown the idea of having one shape that these
01:17:46 ◼ ► products can be to fit in one type of ear but hey well you know i'll keep arguing that over the next three
01:17:52 ◼ ► years until they maybe consider that but i mean they they did add more tips they used to have three tips
01:17:56 ◼ ► now they add five so they are trying to but like i'm not sure what the alternative is is like uh
01:18:00 ◼ ► kind of like the the visor things or whatever you can get airpods 3 with the a shape or the b shape or the c
01:18:06 ◼ ► shape i don't know i mean i honestly uh when i when i tried the different tip sizes it didn't seem to
01:18:13 ◼ ► make any difference in comfort at all to me like no i i figured like oh if i maybe if i go smaller
01:18:19 ◼ ► maybe there'll be more of a risk of falling out of my ear or i'll lose the seal but they'll be more
01:18:23 ◼ ► comfortable they weren't like they i did eventually lose the seal and they did eventually you know risk
01:18:29 ◼ ► falling out of my ear if i if i went too small but going smaller and smaller didn't actually improve the
01:18:34 ◼ ► comfort for me at all um i think it's a different it's a different issue than just the the very
01:18:40 ◼ ► minute diameter differences of those pads uh but anyway all that is to say i think it's time apple
01:18:46 ◼ ► adds a little bit more control over this now there are like there's different system level like ways you
01:18:52 ◼ ► can kind of tweak an eq or have a hearing profile like so like there's ways you can kind of hack some
01:18:58 ◼ ► customization here although be careful with the hearing profile because if you if if you're old you
01:19:03 ◼ ► probably can't hear high frequencies that well and what the hearing profile is going to do is going
01:19:07 ◼ ► to crank them up and so if it's already too shrill for you in the high end don't apply your hearing
01:19:12 ◼ ► profile to it if you're old but yeah like and and also like whatever whatever you apply within but
01:19:16 ◼ ► then apply to i think any headphones that you would wear yeah to all audio yeah which is not that's also
01:19:20 ◼ ► not super desirable um so i think it's time i i hope apple revisits the you know the comfort and fit
01:19:27 ◼ ► here and and tries to get something more more universal they've measured a million ears marco that's what
01:19:32 ◼ ► they'll say next year or two years but not mine it's a shame the twos were great uh but anyway
01:19:39 ◼ ► amazon is still selling the twos if anybody else has the same problem you can you can also buy a spare
01:19:43 ◼ ► pair and i would suggest doing it soon because once these are like you know really out of all the
01:19:48 ◼ ► channels uh you're gonna have a hard time finding you know new ones with new batteries so good luck
01:19:53 ◼ ► they saw a million ears and they measured them all that's a reference john uh one final note on this
01:19:58 ◼ ► one final note i've got one on sound quality here so the uh on the subject of sound quality of these
01:20:02 ◼ ► headphones uh there has been much uh consternation among the reviewers about the sound quality some
01:20:07 ◼ ► people like it some people don't my relationship with sound quality reviews uh is mostly through
01:20:17 ◼ ► in their video to try to let you know how they sound what is that about there's about a thousand
01:20:23 ◼ ► things wrong it's all right but anyway um because like just the chain of stuff from that speaker
01:20:29 ◼ ► making noise to it going into my ear holes when i watch it on my phone is like okay we're just anyway
01:20:34 ◼ ► um but one of the channels that i like one of the channels that has found clever attempts to
01:20:38 ◼ ► to be a youtube channel that reviews speakers in some constructive ways um always has an objective
01:20:46 ◼ ► measurement section and a subjective part and objective measurements are great because you can put them
01:20:50 ◼ ► on graphs and stuff and he always does this is called aaron's audio corner he always does uh his
01:20:56 ◼ ► subjective review and then he tries to figure out based on the objective results why his subjective
01:21:01 ◼ ► review was like that do it does it make sense does his subjective review just way off or it's like ah
01:21:06 ◼ ► this thing that i heard in my subjective listening i can see it here on the graph and that is a good way
01:21:12 ◼ ► to at least give people an idea of how a sound thing a speaker or whatever might perform and then you can
01:21:17 ◼ ► decide how much travel do you like what kind of response do you like and eventually you learn your
01:21:21 ◼ ► tastes and you'll know if you would like this speaker or not uh i've never heard of this channel that
01:21:26 ◼ ► someone sent me it's called the headphone show i'd never seen it before but they also had essentially
01:21:31 ◼ ► a subjective part and objective part i think they have like a little ear shaped machine where they
01:21:35 ◼ ► shove the air pod in and then they do like frequency response measurements with it shoved into the ear canal
01:21:40 ◼ ► so they get like i mean who knows what shape the little fake rubber ear is but anyway they're trying
01:21:46 ◼ ► to get good a good frequency response and you can see their graphs where they show that air pods two
01:21:50 ◼ ► versus the air pods three and sure enough just like marco said and much like casey said the air pods three
01:21:55 ◼ ► are have more bass uh than the two and they have more treble than the two not by much but doesn't take
01:22:01 ◼ ► much changes in these graphs if you watch a lot of these videos you learn that like the lines being just
01:22:06 ◼ ► separated by a little bit it's it's audible because it's usually a logarithmic scale and stuff like that
01:22:10 ◼ ► but i will say that both the air pods two and the air pod three do not have linear frequency response
01:22:14 ◼ ► they are boosted in the bass and they are boosted in the treble the mid-range is nice and linear on you
01:22:20 ◼ ► know it doesn't wiggle around too much and then the bass i've heard a lot of people complain that's kind
01:22:24 ◼ ► of flabby and not tight uh but like you can't oh i disagree you can't really see that in the
01:22:29 ◼ ► frequency response graph but a lot of people thought like there is more bass but they don't like the
01:22:33 ◼ ► quality of it but that's and again that's subjective listening and then the treble is again it's boosted
01:22:38 ◼ ► on both of these it's just boosted more slightly more on the threes and it's not flat um and the thing
01:22:45 ◼ ► with one of the things you learn from looking at all these graphs and speakers is that you can tell
01:22:49 ◼ ► based on there's another measure they didn't do but aaron's audio conner always does which is
01:22:53 ◼ ► basically if this line doesn't have any wiggles in it this speaker will take well to equalization
01:22:58 ◼ ► which is deciding changing the frequency response you know like a you know like you said 12 band 10
01:23:04 ◼ ► band equalizer or whatever um if you see a response curve that you don't like you can say oh this has
01:23:10 ◼ ► too much treble so i'll just turn the equalizer down on those high frequency bands and i can adjust it to
01:23:15 ◼ ► sound how i like not all speakers take to equalization that well based on this thing that whatever this
01:23:21 ◼ ► parameter is that i again i wish i'd remember what it was but anyway from watching the channel you just
01:23:26 ◼ ► learned oh that line is nice and flat that means this this speaker will eq well and sure enough you
01:23:30 ◼ ► can put it through an equalizer and say no look i put it the way i wanted and i can make the curve how i
01:23:33 ◼ ► want it and if it's too much trouble for me i can turn it down but other speakers if you try to turn
01:23:37 ◼ ► down the the treble with the equalizer it will screw up other parts of the line and it won't be as linear
01:23:42 ◼ ► anyway um all this is to say that airpods 2 and 3 are not linear speakers they are very much like
01:23:50 ◼ ► tunes to be appealing to mass audiences which makes sense for what they are they're trying to be a
01:23:55 ◼ ► single product sold to millions of people they're not going to be like an audiophile linear speaker
01:24:00 ◼ ► uh the apple brand is different than the beats brand beats brand their curve is even heavier on the
01:24:05 ◼ ► bass and lower on the treble they're and this is true of all speaker brands like uh what is the one
01:24:14 ◼ ► uh bare dynamic the headphones no there's some some it might be banging olsen but i'm forgetting
01:24:22 ◼ ► anyway there's there's certain speaker brands b&w is another one yeah i know that's not that one
01:24:26 ◼ ► either um there's certain speaker brands and it's not bows uh that have a that cost a bazillion dollars
01:24:32 ◼ ► and have a reputation of having really tons of treble like tons of high end and exactly like marco said
01:24:38 ◼ ► some people like oh i hate that brand i find it fatiguing and shrill and it kills me uh and other
01:24:43 ◼ ► people like oh that brand sounds the best i can hear every nuance of those violin strings or whatever
01:24:47 ◼ ► that's personal taste so it's good to see like i haven't seen this for most of uh you're right mark
01:24:53 ◼ ► also that like i feel like the airpods pro are good enough that they deserve this kind of treatment now
01:24:59 ◼ ► whereas before it's like oh they they're nice they go in my ears like regular airpods now where they're
01:25:03 ◼ ► getting out the graphs now the audio people are looking at them and saying this is what airpods are
01:25:06 ◼ ► they are this u-shaped graph where it's lots of bass and lots of treble and the threes put more bass and
01:25:11 ◼ ► more treble in and for the people on this show for the people on the headphone show it was over their
01:25:15 ◼ ► limit they said this is too much treble and they both hated the bass but for other people your
01:25:19 ◼ ► mileage may vary but just be aware that that's the product you're buying and it is interesting that
01:25:23 ◼ ► they made that adjustment or either didn't make that adjustment but just you know the seal is
01:25:27 ◼ ► providing that extra thing and also didn't provide those that was sarcasm before when i said there's
01:25:31 ◼ ► no technology this is called an equalizer like let people let people have some kind of adjustment
01:25:35 ◼ ► we've had equalizers we've had analog equalizers for like this is not a new technology if there's too much
01:25:41 ◼ ► treble it should be possible to turn it down but it should be possible to adjust that frequency
01:25:46 ◼ ► response curve so there's less space or more bass less treble or more but you can even adjust the
01:25:50 ◼ ► mid band to all these bands go across the entire thing equalization if the speaker takes well to
01:25:56 ◼ ► equalization you can adjust it to sound better so marco it's not going to help you with fitting in your
01:26:01 ◼ ► ear but the fact that apple continues to provide so little adjustability for airpods pro
01:26:07 ◼ ► really limits them because i feel like they they are capable of more than this and especially if you
01:26:13 ◼ ► like everything about them but you just don't like the sound for listening to music which was true of
01:26:16 ◼ ► lots of reviewers i saw a lot of youtube videos where they're like these are amazing love the
01:26:20 ◼ ► transparency love the noise cancellation but they sound worse than the airpods pro 2 and i don't like
01:26:25 ◼ ► how they sound and that's a shame that's that i feel like is perhaps fixable for some subset of these
01:26:31 ◼ ► people if they just provided basic equalization but i guess that's just too fiddly for apple
01:26:36 ◼ ► and again like and you know i usually professional headphone or speaker reviewers usually like a little
01:26:44 ◼ ► bit less treble than i do like there's there's this thing called the harman curve and for a forever ago
01:26:49 ◼ ► like the harman audio corporation um developed or came up with this this like kind of target frequency
01:26:56 ◼ ► response curve like what people what is most pleasing to the most people um because it is not
01:27:01 ◼ ► a flat response it is not even response across the entire spectrum most people have a certain balance
01:27:08 ◼ ► like you know a little bit a little bit of extra bass you know a little bit of boost here and there
01:27:11 ◼ ► a little bit of shape it's a shape of a line i know what shape it is because i put the i put the
01:27:15 ◼ ► harman curve into sound source the rogue amoeba thing as my preferred eq for my external speakers
01:27:21 ◼ ► i like it harman curve is appealing yes most people do the so the problem is as as everybody has gotten
01:27:28 ◼ ► better at at designing speakers and headphones over the last you know 20 years like we've made huge
01:27:33 ◼ ► advances in in the engineering behind developing these products um what has happened is in order to
01:27:40 ◼ ► optimize for the most market almost everyone is now making their headphones and speakers try to
01:27:47 ◼ ► match the harman curve as close as possible so you have a whole bunch of things that all sound the
01:27:51 ◼ ► same the airpods pro don't don't match it yeah airpods pro don't match it though by the way but they
01:27:56 ◼ ► no they don't they definitely don't curve yeah because i like the way the airpods sound and that's
01:28:00 ◼ ► because what i know is what again what i know about myself and when i when i look at other reviews and
01:28:05 ◼ ► when i look at frequency response graphs i know that i like a bit more in certain parts of the
01:28:10 ◼ ► mid-range like between like one and 3k i like a little boost there to get like a little bit more
01:28:14 ◼ ► vocals and guitar presence like and then i like a decent treble response not a like rolled off response
01:28:21 ◼ ► where it plummets you know after a certain amount um but i also know that other reviewers don't like
01:28:26 ◼ ► that so i i tend to go for choices that have a little bit more treble than most reviewers think is
01:28:33 ◼ ► ideal so for me the airpods pro 3s sound great where they already are but if apple wants to only have
01:28:41 ◼ ► one tone that everyone gets what they're going to have to do is issue a software update that changes
01:28:48 ◼ ► their default tuning to be worse for me and that and that just that illustrates why this should be some
01:28:55 ◼ ► kind of control and why again all of their other competitors in the headphone space they all have apps
01:29:02 ◼ ► to to offer basic tone controls at least because people like different things and again now that
01:29:08 ◼ ► they are capable like now that these these drivers and these headphones have gotten so good so advanced
01:29:14 ◼ ► that they're able to be so they're able to be good enough to cause these kind of opinion differences to
01:29:20 ◼ ► be a problem this is when you offer control so maybe they will we'll see uh by the way the speaker
01:29:25 ◼ ► brand i'm pretty sure was bowers and wilkins thank you to hairline one in the chat room for when i said
01:29:30 ◼ ► bnw and you said no yeah going i did you said bnw i didn't know it stood for bowers and wilkins
01:29:35 ◼ ► all right one final thought uh on the air uh airpods pro 3 i can talk um this may all be in my head
01:29:44 ◼ ► this may be a placebo i don't know but i will use transparency mode and um i will use noise
01:29:51 ◼ ► cancellation i mostly have abandoned adaptive although i think i need to try it again to be
01:29:56 ◼ ► honest with you but anyways i typically flip flop between transparency and um noise cancellation and
01:30:02 ◼ ► with the airpods pro 2 transparency sounded really good but you could tell you were listening to a
01:30:07 ◼ ► reproduction of what was happening around you in the same way that when you're wearing the vision pro
01:30:11 ◼ ► it's really good but you can tell you're looking through some you know humongous goggles at screens
01:30:17 ◼ ► that are reproducing what you're seeing around you with the airpods pro 3 transparency is freaking
01:30:24 ◼ ► transparent it is unreal how real it sounds i should have thought that sentence out a little more but
01:30:31 ◼ ► um it is just difficult to believe how absolutely real transparency mode sounds for my ears anyway it's
01:30:39 ◼ ► as though i don't have anything in my ears which is absolutely bananas to me um but you know it it's
01:30:48 ◼ ► what it is and i love it for that all in all i do these do get my recommendation i do think that they are
01:30:54 ◼ ► worth it but if you're coming from airpods pro 2 that you're happy with unless you're desperately seeking
01:30:59 ◼ ► more bass my personal experience is or or a usbc case if you don't already have one uh my personal
01:31:06 ◼ ► experiences that these are good i wouldn't call them requisite you know these are not must buys
01:31:12 ◼ ► but they are definitely good again you know caveats about ear shapes and so on and so forth but um
01:31:17 ◼ ► the the initial reviews and certainly the way they were presented that everything is better in every
01:31:23 ◼ ► measurable way yes but i wouldn't say that everything is dramatically better the bass to my ears
01:31:30 ◼ ► dramatically better the soundstage better transparency mode quite a bit better everything else it's a notch
01:31:38 ◼ ► better but i wouldn't say it's night and day we are sponsored this episode by zapier zapier is how
01:31:46 ◼ ► you actually deliver on your ai strategy not just talk about it you know there's a lot of talk about ai
01:31:51 ◼ ► these days of course it's a huge deal it's changing everything about the way we work and you know what kind of
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01:32:03 ◼ ► speculating about it doesn't really make you more efficient for actual work to actually be more efficient
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01:33:16 ◼ ► zapier.com slash atp that's z-a-p-i-e-r dot com slash atp thanks to zapier for sponsoring our show
01:33:26 ◼ ► so let's do some ask atp and let's start with joshua wold who writes on past episodes you've talked
01:33:35 ◼ ► about the uk demand for encryption backdoors which by the way breaking news is back baby uh this brings
01:33:40 ◼ ► up something i've never fully understood how do we know if anything is encrypted couldn't everything
01:33:44 ◼ ► have backdoors what if signal has a backdoor i don't know john what's what's up with that so in some
01:33:50 ◼ ► respects as just a consumer who doesn't know about the technical details you are essentially trusting
01:33:55 ◼ ► the uh the products that you buy that claim to have encryption uh the companies that make them that
01:34:02 ◼ ► they are telling you the truth about the fact that it's encrypted and that they haven't made
01:34:07 ◼ ► any mistakes when they implemented that encryption uh most of the time they are telling you the truth
01:34:13 ◼ ► it's impossible not to make mistakes and so that's why there are security flaws and that's why they
01:34:17 ◼ ► have patches and yada yada there's that but practically speaking okay but what if you are technical is there
01:34:24 ◼ ► a way that people can tell whether apple is telling the truth about encrypting things unlike the world of
01:34:32 ◼ ► like linux or whatever where there's you know that you have the source code and even then you what you
01:34:36 ◼ ► would say is okay we have the source code to linux but how do i know that this is the source code that
01:34:40 ◼ ► you're using when you build your linux that's in your product right there's always that problem so
01:34:44 ◼ ► apple has tackled that in a couple different ways their private cloud compute thing is one of the
01:34:48 ◼ ► ways they try to tackle this where they're like we use these signed uh operating system images that
01:34:53 ◼ ► we give to security researchers to say here is the here is the binary that we're running
01:34:59 ◼ ► and it's signed in a certain way and you can we can prove that it's signed because only a signed
01:35:04 ◼ ► thing would be able to answer this challenge of this but but you know it's this whole sort of like
01:35:08 ◼ ► math-based cryptography thing to say we're going to give you the binary that we're using and we're
01:35:12 ◼ ► going to try to give you a way to prove to yourself that that really is the binary that we're using but
01:35:16 ◼ ► in the end as i forget the details of this but uh very secure researchers had looked at it when
01:35:21 ◼ ► private cloud compute came out and said in the end there is still at the very bottom of this trust chain
01:35:26 ◼ ► a place where you have to say i believe apple is telling the truth about something or other um it's
01:35:31 ◼ ► very difficult to do sort of a zero trust thing and no please blockchain people please don't uh very
01:35:36 ◼ ► difficult to do a a zero trust thing that uh uh doesn't waste all of our time uh burning down the
01:35:43 ◼ ► entire planet um apple has also provided for ios i believe they provide like to security researchers
01:35:50 ◼ ► like uh versions of their hardware and software for security researchers to try to crack because
01:35:56 ◼ ► compiled software and even encrypted compiled software running like there are you can do things to look
01:36:02 ◼ ► into the hardware and software to see if it really is encrypting things uh because if it's not it'd be
01:36:09 ◼ ► trivial for you to get all the data right um the iphone is a very popular just to give one example
01:36:14 ◼ ► very popular target for security researchers because people want to crack the iphone so if there was a
01:36:20 ◼ ► back door somebody probably would have found it by now because that would be a very desirable thing to
01:36:25 ◼ ► have they're finding amazing exploits that are just mind-boggling like this chains of 15 different
01:36:31 ◼ ► exploits each of which is just you know you can't even believe each one of them and you need all of
01:36:37 ◼ ► them to get through and now apple just added that memory integrity protection that we talked about
01:36:40 ◼ ► it's going to make it even harder for everybody uh but yeah so practically speaking even though you as
01:36:45 ◼ ► a consumer can't really know this stuff you can have some faith that the entire world is trying to break
01:36:51 ◼ ► into apple software and they're going to find all the flaws and if there was a back door they definitely
01:36:57 ◼ ► would have found that i feel like by now because uh it's very hard to hide that given the access that
01:37:03 ◼ ► people have to apple's hardware and software to hide a back door like that oh you know everyone's you
01:37:08 ◼ ► know you can get into anyone's uh phone by typing this special password you know it's a typical sort
01:37:13 ◼ ► of silly back door but any kind of sort of thing like that even the most sophisticated back doors like
01:37:18 ◼ ► there was um i forget the the details connected to this but there was some speculation by the various
01:37:25 ◼ ► people who are tend to be paranoid um that some government uh encryption algorithm maybe it was des i
01:37:31 ◼ ► forget but some sort of like government standardized encryption algorithm had some kind of flaw
01:37:35 ◼ ► and the idea was that the nsa knew about the flaw when they made it a standard but since only the nsa
01:37:40 ◼ ► knew about the flaw they enjoyed you know some number of years where the entire world thought
01:37:45 ◼ ► this was unbreakable but the nsa knew the mathematical weakness that's also kind of a back door
01:37:50 ◼ ► it's not like oh if you use this one password you can get into everything the back door was like
01:37:54 ◼ ► the nsa you know according to this conspiracy theory knew the weakness knew the mathematical
01:37:59 ◼ ► weakness in this algorithm and so they could crack it in much less time than everyone else
01:38:03 ◼ ► that would also qualify as a back door because it's like secret information that they know that you
01:38:06 ◼ ► don't but if other people didn't know that then they could break in so uh in the end it's very difficult
01:38:11 ◼ ► to know for certain that um you know that your trust is founded but on apple's platforms and in the
01:38:18 ◼ ► iphone in particular i think you can have some faith just because so many smart people are trying all the
01:38:25 ◼ ► time to break into it tom cole writes what do the neural engine cores and apple's chips actually do
01:38:31 ◼ ► they spent years boasting about how the neural engines made them leaders in ai or ml then llms
01:38:37 ◼ ► came out and it turned out they needed to boost ram and were massively behind were whatever the neural
01:38:41 ◼ ► engines for just a technological dead end uh and so what do we do about this john how do they work
01:38:48 ◼ ► what are they about we think we talked about this a while before it's actually difficult to look up
01:38:51 ◼ ► technical details on this uh what do the neural engines do they do math that's what all cpus do
01:38:56 ◼ ► but like they do math um and why why is there a separate thing called the neural engine does math the
01:39:03 ◼ ► whole the whole cpu does math like why do you need this separate thing uh the thing the math that is
01:39:10 ◼ ► useful and to do that is required to do for machine learning and ai type stuff involves lots of
01:39:17 ◼ ► numbers so for example the math and the cpu you have an instruction to add two numbers together and
01:39:21 ◼ ► puts the results someplace right but what if i told you that you're gonna have to add 10 million numbers
01:39:28 ◼ ► not just two you could take the first two and add them and then take the second two and add them take
01:39:33 ◼ ► the third two and add them you're like oh geez how many of these numbers are there what if you could
01:39:37 ◼ ► add a thousand of them at the same time give me the first thousand numbers and the second thousand
01:39:42 ◼ ► numbers and i will add the first thousand to the second thousand in the same amount of time
01:39:46 ◼ ► that it takes me to add one number to another number that's what these simd engines do single
01:39:53 ◼ ► instruction multiple data don't just give me two numbers to add give me 100 200 500 of these huge
01:40:01 ◼ ► numbers and give me all the memory give them all together and i'll just take this huge bunch of
01:40:05 ◼ ► numbers and these and then i'll same thing with multiply you know i'm going to multiply these numbers
01:40:09 ◼ ► together i'm going to put the result here and add it there that's the job that you have to do to run
01:40:14 ◼ ► most of these machine learning algorithms and these specialized pieces of hardware are engines that
01:40:20 ◼ ► instead of taking two numbers and doing something with them two numbers to multiply two numbers to
01:40:24 ◼ ► divide they take hundreds and they it's just you know it's like it's massively parallel right and they
01:40:29 ◼ ► can do this because they only do a certain small number of operations that are commonly done for like
01:40:34 ◼ ► matrix multiplication and stuff like that um which if you take a course in school to learn about all
01:40:39 ◼ ► the big square brackets and the numbers and how you do these things a certain number of operations that
01:40:42 ◼ ► you're going to have to end up doing a lot of and if you have huge amounts of numbers you can do it
01:40:46 ◼ ► faster now what i was trying to look up is okay that's the neural engine how does that differ from
01:40:52 ◼ ► the sort of the existing simd units because if you remember back in the pentium days they had mmx and
01:40:57 ◼ ► the power pc had altivec those were the first sort of popular simd engines again single instruction
01:41:01 ◼ ► multiple data the single instruction is add multiple data is 200 two sets of 100 numbers or whatever
01:41:07 ◼ ► although they were smaller back then there were groups of five or six or whatever anyway um the
01:41:12 ◼ ► apple socs have things in them called amx unix advanced matrix extensions those i believe are like
01:41:19 ◼ ► mmx and altivec they're like cpu instructions that you feed to the a19 or whatever and instead of going
01:41:25 ◼ ► to the adder or like the the the multiply units or whatever it goes to the amx units but it's part
01:41:31 ◼ ► of the cpu um it's so hard to find details about this i'm sure people know but the silicon know it
01:41:36 ◼ ► well but i didn't know where to search on the web so i did find a scientific paper called evaluating the
01:41:41 ◼ ► apple silicon m series socs for hpc performance and efficiency hpc is high performance computing
01:41:46 ◼ ► um and they talked about the amx units and then this is here's what they had to say about the neural
01:41:50 ◼ ► engine the neural engine supports int8 and fp16 precision that's integer 8-bit integers and 16-bit
01:41:55 ◼ ► floating point precision as a hardware accelerator the neural engine operate operates independently of
01:42:00 ◼ ► the cpu and gpu not as a coprocessor such as amx the neural engine delivers higher throughput with for
01:42:05 ◼ ► matrix operations than amx but at a lower precision in fp16 while this makes it highly efficient for ai
01:42:10 ◼ ► related tasks low numerical precision is not beneficial for traditional high performance computing
01:42:14 ◼ ► workloads hpc applications requiring fp32 or f364 precision may not be fully benefit from the neural
01:42:20 ◼ ► engine so the neural engine is separate it's not part of the cpu it's a separate unit so it can
01:42:25 ◼ ► operate independently while the the cpu is doing other things it's tailored for the kinds of data
01:42:31 ◼ ► that are used in machine learning which is like 16-bit floating point not for a 32-bit or 64-bit floating
01:42:37 ◼ ► point which you'd have to use the amx or the socs regular units for and that that's what it's there for
01:42:43 ◼ ► like and it's not a dead end that's that is still very useful in fact it's so useful they recently
01:42:47 ◼ ► add those whatever neural cores to the gpu which i'm assuming is the types of matrix math that is
01:42:54 ◼ ► done inside the neural engine now there's a separate thing inside each gpu core that also can do that so
01:42:59 ◼ ► if you're doing some kind of gpu or graphics related operation or if you're using the gpu as a compute
01:43:03 ◼ ► engine now you have some really wide matrix stuff going on in there that wasn't there before
01:43:09 ◼ ► a lot of it's probably branding neural engine versus amx versus whatever everyone else calls
01:43:13 ◼ ► their thing but that's the answer they do math on a lot of numbers at the same time because the things
01:43:19 ◼ ► you need to do in machine learning and ai require you to do math on a lot of numbers at the same time
01:43:25 ◼ ► finally for tonight uh sean harding writes i always try to keep my ssds from getting too close
01:43:30 ◼ ► to max capacity because i know that filling it up kills performance but why don't we hear about this
01:43:34 ◼ ► for phones is the storage and the phone's different enough that it doesn't suffer from this problem
01:43:39 ◼ ► either only you ever fill the phone i feel like i've gotten close and i feel like when you get
01:43:43 ◼ ► when you get really properly toward the end of your available storage it does get ugly fast but
01:43:50 ◼ ► i feel my my vibe check here is that sean's right that you can be you can be pretty close on a phone and
01:43:59 ◼ ► it'll be all right whereas if you get pretty close on a computer things are not all right
01:44:08 ◼ ► um you know with when ssds were new this was a pretty substantial effect um but there's been a lot
01:44:16 ◼ ► of advances in you know how smart their controllers are how how advanced they're you know how they
01:44:20 ◼ ► operate and everything how much is this still the case it's still a case um obviously ssds are better
01:44:28 ◼ ► than they used to be but there is a measurement i forget what they call it in the enterprise world like
01:44:31 ◼ ► over provisioning or something um essentially how much extra hardware is there in the ssd
01:44:38 ◼ ► beyond it's kind of like when you have like a car electric car battery that they tell you the capacity
01:44:43 ◼ ► but really that's like 90 of the capacity they never let you fill it to 100 and then even within
01:44:48 ◼ ► the 90 that a car software will also not let you fill the full 90 so they call the 90 100 like
01:44:53 ◼ ► that there's there's how much it's advertised to hold and there's how much is actually in there
01:44:58 ◼ ► enterprise ssds have they're over provisioned in the amount of memory they have because the cells wear
01:45:04 ◼ ► out over time and before those cells have worn out over time i can imagine that will alleviate some of
01:45:09 ◼ ► the problem but yes in all these cases um there is still kind of the problem of even with spinning
01:45:15 ◼ ► discs like when you start to fill the thing up the number of choices of places you have to store new data
01:45:23 ◼ ► become more limited when it's empty you can store it wherever it's most convenient across these three
01:45:28 ◼ ► chips and these strips or whatever uh but as things you know in the old days get fragmented or whatever
01:45:32 ◼ ► or as like cells wear out and you can't use the ones in this chip anymore or whatever and as the
01:45:36 ◼ ► thing fills up you get fewer choices where you want to put stuff and having only one or two or three
01:45:41 ◼ ► choices of where to put data uh even if it's the not most efficient place to put it will slow things
01:45:46 ◼ ► down um so and phone ssds are no different than any other ssds in that respect in that if you do fill
01:45:53 ◼ ► them up you reduce the number of choices and i can slow things down but that's not your problem
01:45:56 ◼ ► the real problem is ios mac os the underlying darwin operating system gets very upset when it runs out of
01:46:06 ◼ ► disk space even if the even if the ssd was like a quarter full say you partitioned your ssd and three
01:46:12 ◼ ► quarters of it is totally empty but the quarter of it that you're using is about to fill mac os is going
01:46:18 ◼ ► to flip out because if there are so many things in the operating system that expect to be able to have
01:46:25 ◼ ► disk space on the mac for example the swap files if it's time to make a new swap file and it can't make
01:46:30 ◼ ► one because there's not enough disk space things are going to go bad real fast if certain things try to
01:46:35 ◼ ► write to the disk and they get no space left on device back from the operating system and that part
01:46:39 ◼ ► of the operating system expected that never to happen and doesn't handle that failure well bad things
01:46:44 ◼ ► happen and so that's the real danger for you should worry about for filling your ssd your spinning disk or
01:46:51 ◼ ► anything is that most operating systems and especially apple's operating systems do not behave well when
01:46:56 ◼ ► they run out when they start to run out of disk space when anything that expects like surely i'll always
01:47:01 ◼ ► be able to write this one little file here with this like process id in it or something and it can't do
01:47:06 ◼ ► that how good is the error handling is there's this cascade of like well i couldn't do this therefore
01:47:10 ◼ ► this thing happened could this or does it just fall on the floor and things start to fail bad things
01:47:15 ◼ ► happen and the other the thing other thing about phones is and like max as we discussed in the past
01:47:20 ◼ ► how much space is left on your phone's ssd you're going to go into settings general iphone storage and
01:47:26 ◼ ► look at that graph and think you get information out of that that graph is a lot of hand waving
01:47:30 ◼ ► right and there's and as we've discussed with the apfs stuff and the max stuff there's not actually a good
01:47:36 ◼ ► solid answer to that question of how much space is left especially on ios where the os has such control
01:47:41 ◼ ► about things that it can purge and stuff like that uh and there is the race of like well the operating
01:47:46 ◼ ► system needs to write this thing but this this thing is purging like old uh iCloud stuff at the
01:47:52 ◼ ► same time and who's going to win that race um so yeah i think i think the answer for why you don't
01:47:58 ◼ ► hear about it in phones too much is because ios is such a more sort of controlled environment and it is so
01:48:05 ◼ ► much more aggressive than apple than the mac os and apple's other operating systems about doing stuff
01:48:11 ◼ ► behind the scene to like purge things to make room but uh if you fill a phone all the way and
01:48:17 ◼ ► then try to do your normal work in it your phone is going to be worse and slower and probably the os is
01:48:23 ◼ ► going to flip out at some point so don't fill your phone thank you to our sponsors this week claude
01:48:29 ◼ ► factor and zapier and thanks to our members who support us directly you can join us at tv.fm
01:48:34 ◼ ► slash join one of the perks of membership besides the special we talked about earlier and a whole bunch
01:48:39 ◼ ► of other other exclusive member specials is atp overtime our weekly bonus topic so if you have
01:48:45 ◼ ► not heard enough from us you want to hear more from us you can do that every single episode with
01:48:50 ◼ ► overtime this week on overtime we'll be talking about synology third-party hard drives and the new
01:48:56 ◼ ► ubiquity nas products so tune in to hear that atp.fm slash join thank you so much everybody for
01:49:03 ◼ ► listening we'll talk to you next week now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin
01:49:25 ◼ ► accidental who was accidental and you can find the show notes at atp.fm and if you're into
01:49:36 ◼ ► mastodon you can follow them at c a s e y l i s s so that's casey list m a r c o a r m the anti marco r
01:49:49 ◼ ► so i have a usb odyssey that i went down not just a story not a journey a full-on odyssey
01:50:16 ◼ ► it has been an odyssey and i have i'll tell you i have figured it out and i still can't figure it
01:50:23 ◼ ► out oh lovely okay so uh about a maybe two weeks ago oh maybe a week ago my microsoft sculpt ergonomic
01:50:35 ◼ ► keyboard started to flake out and slowly you know lose keystrokes or double keystrokes now i've been
01:50:43 ◼ ► using the sculpt ergonomic keyboard for a while this happens this is how they die the the there's
01:50:50 ◼ ► two tragedies to the microsoft sculpt ergonomic keyboard one is that they never updated it and
01:50:55 ◼ ► in fact it's gone through this whole now afterlife of like microsoft sold their whole keyboard business
01:51:00 ◼ ► they sold part of it to in case in case is now remaking this particular keyboard among a bunch of
01:51:07 ◼ ► others other people have tried to make clones of the sculpt ergonomic because it has such a strong
01:51:12 ◼ ► following including um matthias and kinesis both of which i have tried and neither of which i can
01:51:20 ◼ ► recommend um and this keyboard the problem is a lot of people love this keyboard myself included
01:51:28 ◼ ► and it dies after maybe it depends you know you're it's a roll of the dice it dies after usually between
01:51:38 ◼ ► two and three years of use in my experience and so i have like you know five or six just new in box like
01:51:45 ◼ ► ready to go waiting around um in reserve so i've seen this problem before i've i've gone through i've i've
01:51:52 ◼ ► probably i've probably killed maybe four or five of them over time uh i've used the keyboard for a long
01:51:58 ◼ ► time so anyway this one starts flicking out you know the the keys start doubling and missing i'm like
01:52:05 ◼ ► well i guess this one's at the end just in case i'll change the batteries change the batteries no
01:52:09 ◼ ► difference you know it's still doubling i'm like okay i guess this is about to die and then one morning
01:52:15 ◼ ► i go to my computer and it's it had like the keyboard is totally dead like no no keys work i'm like well
01:52:21 ◼ ► that's a new one all right i i guess i guess this one's done get the next one out of the box
01:52:32 ◼ ► anyway um i go to plug the new one in and it just it also doesn't work that's weird well i guess
01:52:43 ◼ ► maybe something else is wrong maybe like i'll try a different port on the hub or something i don't
01:52:48 ◼ ► know what's because it has its own custom usb receiver that's important um this is not bluetooth
01:52:53 ◼ ► you have your keyboard connected to a hub of course because i have one thunderbolt cable going into my
01:53:00 ◼ ► laptop so i can take my laptop laptops your laptop has more than one port though come on of course but
01:53:07 ◼ ► it's the one cable dream john plus it's a usb a receiver and i don't want to have this like stupid
01:53:13 ◼ ► dongle hanging on my laptop all the time i know then you got to deal with hubs there's a reason my
01:53:18 ◼ ► usb microphone connects directly to the back of my computer well anyway um for a while for for years
01:53:24 ◼ ► now i've had the same setup here and at the beach i have a pro display xdr and a couple of usb devices
01:53:33 ◼ ► plugs i have a usb you know sound headphone amp thing i have my usb pre audio device i have the
01:53:39 ◼ ► keyboard dongle and you know a couple you know like an extra little drive here and there a few a few
01:53:44 ◼ ► things um and a thunderbolt ethernet adapter hanging off of a hub so i have all those things in both
01:53:49 ◼ ► places and they've worked great for years many many years but when this dongle died for the when this
01:53:57 ◼ ► when this sculpt keyboard died the new one didn't work in the same place first time ever and then
01:54:02 ◼ ► so i'm like all right well i keep i keep one of the apple um the the narrower of the two apple
01:54:08 ◼ ► keyboard styles without the big numpad on the side i keep one of those around for touch id usually it's
01:54:13 ◼ ► stuck to the bottom of the desk so i'm like all right i'll just switch to that temporarily until i
01:54:17 ◼ ► figure this out so i switch to that and that works fine and i go through and i realize oh also
01:54:22 ◼ ► why can't i play music my sound isn't working my sound devices also plugged in neither neither my
01:54:30 ◼ ► headphone amp nor the usb pre microphone interface both of which are usb sound devices both of which
01:54:38 ◼ ► plugged into the same hub they're not working either huh what i eventually conclude is that usb 2.0
01:54:47 ◼ ► devices which sound devices they all are i think but certainly both of mine are usb 2 devices are not
01:54:55 ◼ ► working when plugged into the ports on my thunderbolt hub but the usb 3 external ssd is working that's
01:55:06 ◼ ► bananas i mean you you hope the ssd is working or maybe slowly corrupting all this data well right i guess
01:55:11 ◼ ► yeah so i'm trying to figure out why do those work and then i'm like wait a minute i want to plug in
01:55:18 ◼ ► like when i was moving stuff around different ports if i would connect it through the ports on the pro
01:55:26 ◼ ► display xdr it worked but if it's if a usb 2 device was connected through any other way through the
01:55:36 ◼ ► thunderbolt hub it wouldn't work it wouldn't be recognized by the computer at all what is your
01:55:40 ◼ ► thunderbolt hub yeah i was about to ask the same thing so i was using this owc one i forget the
01:55:45 ◼ ► name of it there's these these hubs all have such similar names and they change like every two years
01:55:49 ◼ ► but it's one of the owc ones the one that has a built-in power supply and it has like you know
01:55:53 ◼ ► ethernet and everything so i was using that so i'm like all right well i have like i have a couple of
01:55:57 ◼ ► cal digits around from previous buys i'll just swap one of those in maybe maybe the ports on my hub
01:56:03 ◼ ► when somehow maybe this keyboard dongle killed the usb ports on my hub i don't know how but i you know
01:56:11 ◼ ► these keyboard dongles are crap like the sculpt keyboard works great feels great amazingly comfortable
01:56:16 ◼ ► but electronically it's a piece of garbage this is why they keep dying and so i'm like all right maybe
01:56:22 ◼ ► somehow that my sculpt keyboard killed the usb 2.0 bus because usb 2 uses different pins we talked about this
01:56:30 ◼ ► recently usb 2 uses entirely different pins on the connector than usb 3 so theoretically it is
01:56:37 ◼ ► possible for usb for a hub to basically for usb 2 not to work but usb 3 to work but i figured like
01:56:44 ◼ ► but like they're you know they get power and everything and i'm like well and it it should
01:56:48 ◼ ► be like you know multiplexed over thunderbolt to the computer that shouldn't like that shouldn't
01:56:54 ◼ ► matter anyway so i'm like let me try a different hub try a different a different thunderbolt hub the one of
01:57:00 ◼ ► the caldigit um the thunderbolt element 4 uh no difference same problem and i'm like that's
01:57:07 ◼ ► really weird and i take out i i'm like oh maybe it's maybe my my laptop somehow maybe it's a software
01:57:14 ◼ ► thing who knows so i take out the other laptop and i connect the the the element hub to that
01:57:22 ◼ ► and i got it to work once like well that's weird and so i you know i moved some stuff around like
01:57:29 ◼ ► you know rewired and plug it into my other laptop in it but that doesn't work i'm like what what is
01:57:35 ◼ ► going on so here's what worked usb 2 devices would not work in any configuration except when connected
01:57:45 ◼ ► directly to the macbook pro or when connected via a usb c hub that was not thunderbolt or connected to
01:57:56 ◼ ► the pro display xdr's built-in ports whether or not there was a thunderbolt hub between the xdr and
01:58:02 ◼ ► the laptop here's a bunch of things that didn't work two identical caldigit thunderbolt element 4 hubs
01:58:09 ◼ ► two different models of owc thunderbolt hubs if i connected the usb 2 devices via usb c or usb a
01:58:19 ◼ ► through dongles and ports didn't make a difference whether i connected the usb 2 devices through a usb 2
01:58:26 ◼ ► hub connected to one of the thunderbolt hubs upstream ports no difference whether the thunderbolt
01:58:32 ◼ ► cable was connected to different ports on the macbook pro no difference and a completely different
01:58:37 ◼ ► macbook pro mostly no difference but if i connected thunderbolt devices to the thunderbolt hub like the
01:58:46 ◼ ► thunderbolt ethernet adapter i have that worked just fine and the usb 3 devices worked fine so it's only
01:58:53 ◼ ► usb 2 devices even if i connected that the usb 3 ssd if i used a usb 2 only cable to force it to work
01:59:02 ◼ ► over usb 2 didn't work but you you're not describing the the whole world of devices here but i'm assuming
01:59:08 ◼ ► you were going one device at a time or were you trying all these configurations with all your devices
01:59:13 ◼ ► i was trying everything i could try like i was i mean i'm sure i didn't do it perfectly scientifically but
01:59:19 ◼ ► like it i was i spent like three hours trying to figure this out because because i would have gone down
01:59:25 ◼ ► all the way just to the keyboard keyboard directly connected to the keyboard the keyboard being the only device
01:59:29 ◼ ► thing because i you know you mentioned like you're a device killing the hub and i feel like hubs will
01:59:34 ◼ ► die all on their own i always suspect the hub is being bad but you've eliminated that by trying like
01:59:37 ◼ ► four different hubs right so it's probably not all four your hubs are bad so then my next suspicion is
01:59:42 ◼ ► some usb 2 connected device is like just spraying garbage data because it's flipping out oh yeah that's
01:59:48 ◼ ► what i thought too and any device connected to usb 2 is now failing because the entire usb 2 environment
01:59:54 ◼ ► is just inside the inside any of the hubs is totally destroyed by that one device that's just
01:59:58 ◼ ► spewing garbage so then i would have said okay does just the keyboard work you know and all the
02:00:04 ◼ ► configurations nothing but the keyboard just the keyboard right i see you know what i mean and then
02:00:08 ◼ ► add a second device i did that third device yeah so i did that because i had the same thought i'm like
02:00:12 ◼ ► maybe one of these is like you know broken and like and like polluting the whole usb 2.0 bus somehow
02:00:18 ◼ ► um but in like all all the same thing which like if i connected them directly to the macbook pros ports
02:00:25 ◼ ► they would work but they would not work through any thunderbolt hub and but only usb 2 devices and i'm
02:00:32 ◼ ► like that that but except if they were plugged into the xdr's hub if for some reason the xdr and i would
02:00:40 ◼ ► imagine what the xdr situation would be that the xdr is like you know again like tunneling it over the
02:00:48 ◼ ► even so yes you're right but so i have i have a usb 3 hub that has that has like a couple little
02:00:56 ◼ ► ports on it so i tried all right maybe what if i what if i connect usb 3 hub to a thunderbolt hub
02:01:03 ◼ ► and then connect a usb 2 device into the usb 3 hub so that it was like maybe it's translating the usb 2
02:01:09 ◼ ► back and it maybe it will it will upstream to the to the hub over three and i was trying all that no matter
02:01:15 ◼ ► what if usb 2 devices were in were in that thunderbolt hub they would not be recognized by the computer at
02:01:21 ◼ ► all and i i was like am i going crazy like and i would try different things and i'm like didn't it
02:01:26 ◼ ► work that one time on the other laptop but then i couldn't get to work again when i tried it again i'm
02:01:31 ◼ ► like what happened what is this are these laptops running my main one is running the the non-26 one and
02:01:39 ◼ ► these my travel one is running 26 and so i'm like what what is this now that's all the information i
02:01:47 ◼ ► had what are your guesses because i i did eventually figure out something about it but what are your
02:01:52 ◼ ► guesses at this point uh power supply casey no i don't think it's a power supply i don't know what
02:02:00 ◼ ► it is but i don't think it's a power supply um i mean i feel like there's something about i mean
02:02:07 ◼ ► obviously there's something about the the fact that it's usb 2 and i'm thinking about how on the ts5
02:02:12 ◼ ► which i know you're not using but on thunder on the caldigit ts5 plus particularly which is what i'm now
02:02:18 ◼ ► using there's a different like usb controller for different pieces of the hub and i think it's running
02:02:24 ◼ ► two different usb controllers and i feel i have this vague notion that it's something in that
02:02:29 ◼ ► direction but i i got freaking nothing other than that i mean really it's a power supply because that's
02:02:35 ◼ ► something you haven't mentioned yet but really like i if i was uh narrowing this down which i have done
02:02:40 ◼ ► with like my mouse and stuff oh i would always strip it down to zero devices then one device like
02:02:45 ◼ ► i would want to know which one of the things is causing the problem rather than it sounded like you were
02:02:49 ◼ ► very often hooking up all your devices through various things i'd be like no get everything off of this
02:02:53 ◼ ► it's it's just a computer it's just a keyboard it's just a single cable and then build up from
02:02:56 ◼ ► there until it breaks and then then you'd figure out what the what the what the thing that's causing
02:03:01 ◼ ► the problem is but right and i was doing that but what would happen is like as soon as i would plug
02:03:05 ◼ ► anything any usb 2 device that would have to be routed through a thunderbolt hub it would not work
02:03:10 ◼ ► anymore unless that hub was the xdr's hub even when it was just one even it was just one device yes
02:03:15 ◼ ► even if i ran the xdr through a different thunderbolt hub and then into the laptop so daisy chain that
02:03:22 ◼ ► worked too like if the xdr was hosting the usb 2 device on one of its ports this all worked just
02:03:28 ◼ ► fine which single usb device did you use to determine this did you use apple's keyboard use
02:03:32 ◼ ► the in case keyboard i was using usually i was using one of the sound devices anyway i always say power
02:03:38 ◼ ► supply because the in these devices especially hubs but even like external hard drives and stuff the
02:03:43 ◼ ► weakest part of it is the thing that converts uh alternating current to direct current those things if they get
02:03:50 ◼ ► wonky and start providing too low voltage briefly and do or just get bad it's not the fault of the hub
02:03:56 ◼ ► technically but it's just not getting enough power and so things can be disconnecting or freaking out
02:04:01 ◼ ► or whatever but you've tried so many hubs that's probably not it well at one point i like unwired the
02:04:07 ◼ ► whole setup and like re like again pull everything from scratch right and i like move something around
02:04:14 ◼ ► oh were you using the same wires when you were swapping in the hubs one of them was the same
02:04:21 ◼ ► the the thunderbolt cable that ran between the laptop and the hub which is apple it's the one that comes
02:04:33 ◼ ► with the xdr the it's like you know the the braided two meter long because that's like it's kind of a
02:04:38 ◼ ► long run it like runs along the whole side of the desk so and that's the only cable i had that was
02:04:43 ◼ ► that link your standing desk that moves well that part is fixed that part doesn't go up and down all
02:04:47 ◼ ► right um but anyway so that's the only thunderbolt cable i had that's longer than like a foot and a
02:04:52 ◼ ► half so it's the only one that can make the run so i was using that one cable for all these tests
02:04:59 ◼ ► except the one time i plugged in the other laptop when it worked for a second i couldn't i couldn't
02:05:03 ◼ ► reproduce say your your experiment design is a little shoddy here this cable again this is like
02:05:09 ◼ ► the apple pro xdr cable it works for everything else except suddenly when the sculpt keyboard died
02:05:17 ◼ ► it then stopped working for usb 2 devices being sent over thunderbolt that are not put into the xdr
02:05:24 ◼ ► now i i have no idea why and i even i have a cable tester i have this is what i was about to say
02:05:35 ◼ ► because yeah didn't you recommend this to me the yeah the cable cable cue yeah because as you're
02:05:40 ◼ ► talking just now i wish i had come up with this a while ago but just now i'm thinking to myself wait
02:05:44 ◼ ► a second i'm pretty sure usb 2 rolls on different pins it's on a thunderbolt cable so that's maybe the
02:05:51 ◼ ► only thing that's using those wires but yep but see here but here's the thing like i mean maybe i'm
02:05:56 ◼ ► missing something about how this works when you plug in something into a thunderbolt hub the thunderbolt
02:06:00 ◼ ► hub is like a it's like a big pci device right and like isn't the thunderbolt isn't the usb controller
02:06:07 ◼ ► on that hub translating the usb pins to the devices into pci i think it's more of a tunneling thing where
02:06:15 ◼ ► it reserves lanes for plain old usb 2 somewhere in there i don't know i don't know the technical
02:06:19 ◼ ► details like i don't i don't think that you're sending the usb 2 data pins over the thunderbolt
02:06:26 ◼ ► cable once like coming from a hub well anyway i would say that if if you have determined that you
02:06:31 ◼ ► have a bad cable no amount of tunneling is going to save you probably unless it actually entirely
02:06:37 ◼ ► avoids those conductors but well so here's the thing so i tested with my caber queue this great
02:06:44 ◼ ► little cable tester i tested the cable that seemed to be the problem and sure enough it says like
02:06:51 ◼ ► does cable health zero percent like whatever that means charging power zero and it says like is that
02:06:56 ◼ ► good i i don't think so but then under the specs like it only lists usb 4 and alternate mode it does
02:07:04 ◼ ► not list any of the backwards compatible usb modes i'm like okay but it's a thunderbolt cable like and this
02:07:09 ◼ ► you know this is because of the age of the xdr this is like a thunderbolt 3 cable i believe
02:07:15 ◼ ► so this is before usb and thunderbolt were united so you could have like usb 4 they're all united a usb 4
02:07:22 ◼ ► cable should also do thunderbolt uh 4 and 3 and you know over it but a thunderbolt 3 cable might not have
02:07:29 ◼ ► the pins to also do usb so this tester was that was verifying okay it has thunderbolt basically but not
02:07:38 ◼ ► old usb modes but like but again that's been fine for years it has worked for years it was only when that
02:07:46 ◼ ► keyboard died that it stopped working so i'm like maybe it fried something so anyway then i test one of
02:07:55 ◼ ► the caldigit cables like one of the true uh usb 4 thunderbolt 4 cable and of course every light on
02:08:01 ◼ ► the tester lights up it passes every possible test and i use that and it works i'm like what changed
02:08:07 ◼ ► but i'm like well i go online and like well amazon can deliver me tomorrow morning a brand new one of
02:08:12 ◼ ► these cables i'm like okay i still need a long thunderbolt cable so i don't like run cables in a
02:08:16 ◼ ► weird way across my desk so i still need a long cable i still need to buy a new one so all right let me
02:08:21 ◼ ► get the same apple cable again like now it's officially i think it's like labeled usb 4 or
02:08:27 ◼ ► whatever but like let me get the same cable again so i got the replacement cable the next morning
02:08:31 ◼ ► sure enough replacing the cable in the exact same run works perfectly so i'm like oh cool let me get
02:08:38 ◼ ► my cable tester and see what's different is it an active cable uh no i don't think so it's hard to
02:08:45 ◼ ► tell these days because the chips are really small but actually cable we need it has tiny microchips in
02:08:48 ◼ ► the ends of the connectors to help with the transfer very long cables usually well i think
02:08:52 ◼ ► all thunderbolt cables have that i'm not sure all but anyway but when a thunderbolt cable says i believe
02:08:58 ◼ ► thunderbolt cables can also i think have like like optics like fiber optics for certain lengths i don't
02:09:04 ◼ ► know anyway but even the electronic ones there they have tiny chips in there and the chips are very small
02:09:09 ◼ ► so it's hard to tell whether they're in there and obviously those chips go wrong your cables can have
02:09:13 ◼ ► problems yeah but so i got the replacement cable the tester tests it exactly the same it what so i
02:09:23 ◼ ► cannot figure out what has changed about the bad cable whatever it is this tester does not distinguish
02:09:29 ◼ ► it from the new cable yeah i would imagine that tester absolutely can't handle active cables but who knows
02:09:36 ◼ ► i don't know but like it's well it handles all the other ones anyway so all this is to say i ha i still
02:09:41 ◼ ► have no idea what happened i still have no idea what about the cable went bad such that usb 2 devices
02:09:50 ◼ ► would only work if plugged in through a pro display xdr's hub and no other hubs i i this this was the
02:09:59 ◼ ► hardest to figure out problem i have ever had on my home computer and i i still don't know the answer
02:10:07 ◼ ► i've at least just worked around it by just replacing this cable but like this is the most bizarre thing
02:10:13 ◼ ► ever and so anyway um that that's where that's where we are now i still i i'm still using that apple
02:10:20 ◼ ► keyboard i did not go back to the sculpt i'm gonna i'm i'm kind of testing to see you should go back to
02:10:25 ◼ ► the the keyboard that you thought went bad and try that first oh i already threw it away
02:10:28 ◼ ► maybe it was fine it could have been just the cable that was bad my theory is like because it was like
02:10:36 ◼ ► dying in like with the with like the key misses and stuff because it was dying in the way those always
02:10:43 ◼ ► die i think it was just dying i've like i've i've as i've as i've killed like five of these over the
02:10:49 ◼ ► years like i i've i've seen exactly this pattern happen so it's very likely the keyboard was dying and
02:10:54 ◼ ► it was about time for this one um but i think i think when it died i think it is something really
02:11:00 ◼ ► weird to the stuff it was connected to and i think something got fried or something along the way
02:11:05 ◼ ► god knows what happened uh but things got very messed up and it all came down to this one cable
02:11:11 ◼ ► like the upstream cable between thunderbolt hub and the and the laptop and i have no idea why
02:11:16 ◼ ► well oh yeah again not even knowing whether the cable is an active cable doesn't let you know
02:11:21 ◼ ► whether you could potentially blame the tiny microchips that are in the ends of the connector
02:11:24 ◼ ► if they exist or not well again i think on thunderbolt cables i believe there are always
02:11:29 ◼ ► microchips in the end it's just a question of maybe of like what kind but there's always but if those
02:11:33 ◼ ► start to do weird things like that's the type of thing you're not going to be able to debug from the
02:11:37 ◼ ► outside very easily because how can you tell whether the chip is working right and you'd have probably
02:11:41 ◼ ► have to know more about the protocols and stuff and to understand how the the chain of stuff is
02:11:46 ◼ ► configuring itself and yada yada but in the end it doesn't really matter why it's going wrong you
02:11:51 ◼ ► want to get it down to the problem i think you would narrow it down eventually to that cable uh
02:11:55 ◼ ► because replacing it although buying the exact same cable again i would have maybe bought a different
02:11:59 ◼ ► one but you know it worked for years with that cable so i suppose yeah and like and you know it's
02:12:03 ◼ ► also you know it's it's still it worked for all these years and i think the apple cable it was the
02:12:09 ◼ ► only cable i could find that was anywhere near this length like it's i think it's like 1.8 meters or
02:12:16 ◼ ► something like it's not most of them are like either two meters or you know like 0.6 or something like
02:12:24 ◼ ► it it's there it's a weird length and it happens to fit like the run that i have for it it fits so
02:12:29 ◼ ► perfectly so i'm like i i don't want to get anything else but anyway and it looks nice and you know this
02:12:35 ◼ ► is like it's one of the only cables that's visible behind my monitor if i want it to look nice um so
02:12:39 ◼ ► it's anyway i'm it's finally it's finally done well next time yeah next time uh come up with a uh
02:12:48 ◼ ► more regimented uh experiment design that it will get you to this answer sooner and strip it down to
02:12:53 ◼ ► nothing and then slowly add things back and change all variables different you did a different laptop
02:12:58 ◼ ► you did different keyboard you didn't think to do a different cable till the end i was expecting
02:13:03 ◼ ► this to be some sort of interference related thing like you and i were fighting with my xlr cable the
02:13:08 ◼ ► other day uh but no turns out it's just i mean or it could have been like the uh the cable gets
02:13:13 ◼ ► caught in one of the uh hinges of your standing desk and gets shredded or a cat chews through it or
02:13:17 ◼ ► there's all sorts of cable related uh things that can go wrong nope allures to cats and that so when
02:13:23 ◼ ► when i wire a standing desk i put all the wires that are important and that are actually useful
02:13:29 ◼ ► like i put all the wiring that i can somehow attached in on or under the desk so so that the
02:13:37 ◼ ► wires all move with the desk the only wires that go downward from the desk to the floor are power and
02:13:42 ◼ ► network that's it um and everything like i have like there's there's a whole surge strip like mounted
02:13:47 ◼ ► in the desk or under the desk like whenever i do a desk that's what i do so that way the entire setup
02:13:53 ◼ ► moves up and down and you only need a little bit of slack in the power cable and the network cable