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690: Turn Left at the Next Tree

 

00:00:00   Oh, I'm a little sick.

00:00:01   You too?

00:00:01   Yeah, you too. Yeah. So what happened was, you know, last week, as I'm getting ready to do the Great Saunter, like the day before.

00:00:09   Oh, I don't love this.

00:00:11   Yeah, the day before I wake up. I had a little bit of congestion for a few days, but it's also, you know, my car was also turning yellow last week because it's pollen season.

00:00:20   Right now, at this moment, for this particular six-month period, I don't own an ostensibly yellow car, but it happens sometimes.

00:00:30   It can happen to you, Marco.

00:00:31   Right, but this is not one of those times. So I figured, oh, it's just allergies. And then, you know, every day, the congestion gets a little bit worse. I'm like, oh, it's allergies.

00:00:37   And then the day before the saunter, I get a sore throat. Now, at this point, I was still telling myself, wow, the allergies are really bad right now.

00:00:48   To be so bad, it caused a sore throat. I mean, obviously, totally in denial, right? Because I was not going to be sick and miss the saunter after, you know, training for it for like, you know,

00:00:59   eight or nine months or whatever it's been, like, I'm not going to miss it. So I willed myself into thinking I was not sick. However, it became pretty clear, you know, a day later, two days later, like, oh, yeah, no, this is, I'm definitely sick.

00:01:12   This is not allergies. It's really just a cold. So it is the season.

00:01:18   It is the season. So it's funny you say that, because I'm sitting here doing some work in the evening time, which is unusual for me. But my boss is a jerk. So here we are. So I was doing work in the evening time. And I was sitting here and I was like, huh?

00:01:31   Hmm. Hmm. I don't think that's good. And I'm feeling like just the beginnings of like the, the, the, the zygote of a sore throat. You know what I mean? Like just the, the hideous littlest bit of sore throat. And I'm like, oh, yep. That's probably coming for me. Maybe tomorrow.

00:01:46   Certainly over the weekend. Cause the kids both had like colds and light sore throats. Um, Declan in particular is extremely susceptible to strep. And as far as we could tell, it wasn't that, but, um, yeah, it sounds like I'm coming down with a cold as well. I guess Marco and you and I shouldn't have been smooching over the last few days. That's really what ruined everything.

00:02:01   Yeah. You got it for me for through last week's show, I guess.

00:02:04   Well, with that in mind, let's just get started and start with some follow-up, uh, with regard to backblaze and cloud backups, Barry Rubenstein writes,

00:02:14   One of the best backup decisions I recently made was switching from time machine to carbon copy, cloner plus backblaze. It works seamlessly in the background, provides a ton of options to customize, uh, carbon copy cloner backs up all the major cloud file, file providers using, including, excuse me, Dropbox, iCloud, Google drive, et cetera.

00:02:32   It temporarily downloads only new or change files locally for backup and then quote unquote evicts those local copies. I back these up to a dedicated volume on my external backup drive and then have backblaze backup that drive.

00:02:44   Here's the support document on how it works, which we'll link in the show notes.

00:02:48   Yeah. This is, uh, highlighting a backup strategy that I tend not to think about, but a lot of people find valuable. I'm always like, uh, just back up the whole, you know, the whole volume, like everything. Don't, don't pick and choose directories. But a lot of people know, like they have a habit where they're like, look, the only files I care about are here or in these two locations. And if that's the case with you, you can use lots of other solutions that are much more targeted. So this one, it's basically like carbon copy cloner, which carbon copy cloner does the whole drive to be clear. But, uh, if you only care about that, you know what I'm going to do with that.

00:02:52   A lot of people find valuable. I'm always like, uh, just back up the whole, you know, the whole volume, like everything. Don't, don't pick and choose directories. But a lot of people know, like they have a habit where they're like, look, the only files I care about are here or in these two locations.

00:03:06   And if that's the case with you, you can use lots of other solutions that are much more targeted. So this one, it's basically like carbon copy cloner, which carbon copy cloner does the whole drive to be clear. But, uh, if you only care about these specific directories, you could target copy those with arc or carbon copy cloner or whatever to another place. And, you know, again, given that it's, it's claimed that it's going to ask for them to be downloaded from the cloud service, back them up and then evict them. Assuming that all that works and is successful,

00:03:32   what you end up with is a target drive that just contain the files you want to back up. And they're just plain files. They came from cloud files, maybe in the source, but in their destination, they're just plain files. And then you point back blade with that back blades at that drive and it cloud backs up that drive. And again, all the files are plain files. There's no cloud anything. Uh, and as long as that drive is connect directly connected to your computer, back blades will back it up. So, uh, that is, sounds like a solution that works well for Barry.

00:03:58   Yeah. I was thinking more about this whole situation. And I, I realized like, you know, when we were first getting into Dropbox and then all the services that kind of followed in its footsteps, it was not cloud storage. It was sync. Like that was functionally what we were doing. We were taking a directory that was on our drives and we were syncing it between our computers.

00:04:18   The idea of cloud only files or like on demand files didn't come until I think years into this product being a thing. And of course that introduces lots of complexity. Like the file might not be there. You might not be able to get it there. Um, et cetera.

00:04:31   That's when the whole like file provider, you know, thing started becoming more necessary. That whole API, all the complexity behind that, all the problems behind that. Certainly I can see like today's world having back blades try to deal with what is really cloud storage now and not just synced local storage. That is a lot more complicated.

00:04:51   I don't think backblaze handled it particularly well in terms of messaging or, you know, warning or things like that. But I do kind of sympathize with the position they're in with the complexity of this.

00:05:01   Um, but I do think like what we are asking these tools to do now is, is no longer just take this folder on my computer and sync it. Um, that is how many of us choose to use it. Like, you know, I have mine set up to always keep everything downloaded. Like I never want a cloud only file on any of my computers, but I'm also only storing, I don't know, I think 20 gigs in my Dropbox. Like it's not a huge amount of data.

00:05:26   So I can kind of see why, you know, obviously this is not the common case for a lot of people, but I think another solution that might be relevant here is, um, back when I was using that third party program Maestral, which was a third party Dropbox open source client.

00:05:41   I haven't tested this, but I bet Maestral would be backed up by backblaze because I think it only supports downloaded files and it's just basically a, like a background process that's running, pulling the Dropbox API for changes.

00:05:56   And downloading those files to a directory on your Mac directly where it, where it appears to be.

00:06:01   So I bet there are things like that, or like accessing Dropbox through other like third party tools that can access it, that if you want Dropbox to be backed up by backblaze, maybe a third party tool like that could be a route that would work.

00:06:15   And speaking of ARC, Daniel Luce writes, here's how ARC handles cloud files along with the default setting.

00:06:19   And the screenshot is not spectacular, but it appears to read when a data list or cloud only file is encountered.

00:06:26   And then there's a dropdown and there are three options, report an error, ignore, or materialize.

00:06:32   So Daniel continues, if a file gets evicted after successful backup and never changes, ARC won't force it to be materialized back, nor will it error out.

00:06:39   Materialization or failure only occurs if ARC does not think it already has a backup of its current contents.

00:06:45   Again, ARC is also claiming to do the same thing as Carbon Copy Cloner, which is like, hey, we can pull down the file if you want, if we need to back it up.

00:06:54   And I think that's the route that backblaze is probably going to end up going down after this whole fiasco.

00:06:58   They're just behind the times with it and communicated it poorly.

00:07:01   Yep, yep.

00:07:02   All right, let's talk about Neo-ing all the other things.

00:07:07   So last week's Overtime, we talked about, hey, should Apple do more MacBook Neo-style products?

00:07:13   And John, I presume this is you, wanted to ask us some more questions about that.

00:07:17   We had a bunch of different people suggesting that.

00:07:19   Obviously, in the Overtime, we talked about a lot of different Neo ideas and decided if the products were Neo-able or not.

00:07:26   But there's some things we didn't discuss, and these were suggested.

00:07:29   There's a couple that were suggested by a lot of people.

00:07:31   One is the Vision Pro.

00:07:32   I don't think we talked about that.

00:07:34   But obviously, in the past, we have talked about that, albeit not in the context of the Neo, which didn't exist at the time.

00:07:39   And the idea there is basically, I bet a lot of people want a Vision Pro because it's neat and cool,

00:07:44   but they can't pay that much money for it or don't want to pay that much money for it, just like the MacBooks.

00:07:49   And the Neo came along.

00:07:51   It's like, hey, you wanted one of those really nice Apple laptops, but you didn't want to pay a lot?

00:07:54   Now you can get one.

00:07:55   Could they do that with the Vision Pro?

00:07:56   And I feel like the answer is a resounding no right now.

00:07:59   I agree.

00:08:00   They just can't.

00:08:01   I mean, they can't even air the Vision Pro.

00:08:04   Like, the Neo is so many steps down.

00:08:07   Yeah, that was my reply to the toot.

00:08:08   The person who tooted this, I've replied back to them.

00:08:10   They're still working on trying to air the Vision Pro.

00:08:12   They're trying to make anything that is less expensive.

00:08:15   Oh, you made the same joke?

00:08:16   Yeah.

00:08:17   I mean, the Vision Pro is so far from accessibility and mass market pricing.

00:08:24   Like, you know, there's been big markets for many years for laptops that were $900 to $1,200.

00:08:32   That's why the MacBook Air has been so successful.

00:08:34   It didn't go straight from the $7,000 Mac Pro desktop to nothing.

00:08:39   We've had mid-priced laptops as a big, healthy category for a long time.

00:08:43   The Vision Pro is still in the $7,000 Mac Pro territory and with just nothing below it.

00:08:50   Yeah.

00:08:50   And the key thing about the Neo is you may be saying, well, there's all sorts of VR, AR headsets that cost way less money.

00:08:57   But the key thing with the Neo is the magic of providing, essentially, the experience that everybody wanted.

00:09:02   I want a nice Apple laptop, like the ones that I see that cost too much money.

00:09:06   Can I get that experience but pay less money?

00:09:09   And with the Vision Pro, you can make a cheaper headset, but it won't give you the Vision Pro experience.

00:09:14   That's the magic of the Neo.

00:09:15   Not just, hey, you made a cheaper product in this category, but you made a cheaper product in this category that the people who buy it feel like they're getting away with something.

00:09:24   Like that they're getting what they previously couldn't for less money.

00:09:28   And, you know, if and when Apple comes out with cheaper, various cheaper glasses type products or whatever, we'll know if they match the Vision Pro in quality just because, you know, the screens have to become cheaper.

00:09:38   It has to be able to do all the things that Vision Pro can do, but, you know, way less or whatever, like, oh, and cost less money and all that other stuff.

00:09:45   So I think they'll get there eventually.

00:09:46   But the technological progress on the underlying technology of the Vision Pro in particular has been really slow.

00:09:54   Like, it seems like nobody has Vision Pro quality screens at a massively lower price than Apple.

00:09:59   And obviously, Apple overprices a little bit with their very fancy industrial design and all sorts of other stuff and the cameras on the outside.

00:10:03   And we, you know, see past episodes.

00:10:06   We've talked at length about how to make a cheaper Vision Pro.

00:10:09   But Neo is not just like, oh, it's instead of a MacBook Pro, it's a MacBook Air, as we just said.

00:10:14   It's like, no, now you're competing with the lowest price competitors.

00:10:18   And there's just not that many really low price competitors.

00:10:20   Like competing with those X-Real glasses, they're like a few hundred bucks or whatever.

00:10:24   But that's not, that's like so far from the Vision Pro experience.

00:10:27   So, yeah, we're still waiting on tech for that one.

00:10:29   I would say, though, the difference is even more dire.

00:10:32   Not to beat a dead horse that, for some reason, everybody still thinks is not dead.

00:10:37   But I assure you, it's dead.

00:10:38   The Neo was giving people an experience they already wanted at a lower price point.

00:10:46   The Vision Pro is giving people an experience that most people are not actually wanting and also at a very high price.

00:10:57   Oh, that's such a good way of looking at it.

00:10:59   I'm so mad at you.

00:10:59   I don't know.

00:11:00   I think the whole idea of the Neo is it's for people who already wanted a nice Apple laptop and a Neo Vision Pro would be for people who already want a Vision Pro.

00:11:07   Like, I know it's a much smaller market, but that's my idea of like Neo-ing a product.

00:11:10   It's not, because it's not like the Neo suddenly made people who weren't interested in laptops interested in laptops.

00:11:15   It's like you said, they already wanted a nice Apple laptop.

00:11:17   They're just like, I'm not paying a thousand bucks for a laptop.

00:11:19   So they got a Windows one.

00:11:20   This is for people who are like, I really want a really nice VR headset.

00:11:24   Now, granted, that's a tiny group of people, but for those people, and they're just like, oh, I would love a Vision Pro, but $3,500, forget it.

00:11:31   It's like, well, what if I told you you could get something that you will think is just as good as a Vision Pro for $800?

00:11:36   They would leap at it.

00:11:37   That narrative makes a lot more sense if what we see from people who do have the Vision Pro is that they're using it all the time and loving it and getting lots of things done in it.

00:11:47   And that's not the narrative we're seeing.

00:11:48   So I think the reality is worse.

00:11:50   I just said people who wanted it.

00:11:52   I didn't say people who owned it.

00:11:53   Well, I mean, you're a great example.

00:11:55   You have one, but it's not like you're dying for a cheaper Vision Pro because you just love the Vision Pro so much.

00:12:01   That's like, I think the Vision Pro has many challenges.

00:12:04   Price is a big one, but it has many more fundamental challenges that I don't think have great chances of being solved.

00:12:14   The next one that we didn't talk about that was suggested by a lot of people was the iMac,

00:12:19   which is an interesting case because, I mean, we did talk about the Mac Mini in overtime.

00:12:23   And that one makes a lot of sense from a bunch of different angles.

00:12:28   But the problem with the iMac is like once you swap out the SoC for like an A something SoC,

00:12:33   it's really difficult to push that price down because the screen just dominates the price and everything else about it.

00:12:42   And you can't like the iMac screen is fine, but it's there's not a appreciably cheaper screen just waiting to be switched to.

00:12:50   Like, what are you going to do to downgrade the screen?

00:12:52   It's basically the bottom of the barrel already.

00:12:54   I'm not saying that it's bad, but it's not HDR.

00:12:56   It's not high refresh.

00:12:58   It's not, you know, it doesn't have a lot of pixels.

00:13:00   It's not super bright.

00:13:02   It's already a Neo level screen.

00:13:04   It's just pretty big.

00:13:06   You could, I guess, make the case out of plastic or something.

00:13:08   But honestly, how much money would that save?

00:13:10   Could you do a little bit of different stamping instead of machining to take a little bit off?

00:13:14   It's similar to the Mac Mini case, except that in the case of the Mac Mini, we came at it in the overtime.

00:13:20   For people who aren't members, we came at it from two different directions.

00:13:23   One is looking at the Apple TV, which is already kind of like a mini Neo.

00:13:25   And the other is taking the MacBook Neo and chopping off all the parts until it's a Mac Mini.

00:13:30   And seeing what you end up price-wise, and I don't know how much you can chop off of the iMac,

00:13:34   especially since I think the current iMac should have an adjustable stand already, and it doesn't.

00:13:39   So maybe we put that on, and then we take it off again.

00:13:41   But anyway, those were two common suggestions for Vision Pro and iMac.

00:13:44   We'll see.

00:13:45   Obviously, the Vision Pro, as Marco has stated many times, has other problems.

00:13:50   I'm not really waiting for a Neo anytime soon.

00:13:53   And the iMac seems kind of unbudgeable, but we may talk about, we will talk about, I think, the iMac later in the show.

00:14:00   So from the other angle.

00:14:01   So just on the iMac, on a Neo iMac, or iMac Neo rather, the monitor, yes, the screen is an expensive component.

00:14:10   It might even be the most expensive component, even though screen tech has gotten really good,

00:14:14   and it's not a very particularly high-end or large panel.

00:14:19   I bet even today, like, you know, how much do you think the iMac screen panel actually costs?

00:14:24   Now, a 24-inch, like, 4K monitor is around $200 to $300 retail.

00:14:33   Like, and that's a complete monitor with the whole case and everything and ports and everything around it.

00:14:38   So, like, I don't think we're talking about more than probably a $200 part on Apple's standards.

00:14:44   It's still the most expensive part.

00:14:46   I can't imagine the case costing more than that.

00:14:47   Yes, but the iMac starts at $1,300.

00:14:50   And, you know, so they tend to have, you know, call it a 30% or 40% profit margin.

00:14:54   You figure there's probably about $100 to $200 more stuff in there than a decent monitor would have.

00:15:04   I mean, you've got to also do the keyboard and mouse or trackpad, which the Mac Mini doesn't come with, obviously.

00:15:09   That's fair.

00:15:09   But I think you're looking at, I think they could make an iMac, you know, right now it's $1,300.

00:15:13   I bet they could make a comparable one for, say, $700 or $800.

00:15:18   Would you give rid of the aluminum on the case and go to plastic?

00:15:22   I don't think they necessarily need to.

00:15:25   I mean, look at what they did with the Neo.

00:15:26   I think that's the next biggest place where the money is has got to be the case, right?

00:15:30   Because there's just so much more aluminum in the iMac, right?

00:15:33   And it does have the stupid stand, even though it's not technically adjustable.

00:15:36   It just tilts, you know, it's not height adjustable.

00:15:38   But I think the aluminum case is number two on the price list.

00:15:40   Well, but with the Neo, what they showed is that they could still make an aluminum case.

00:15:44   They just had to make it differently.

00:15:45   Yeah, but there's so much less aluminum in the Neo than the iMac.

00:15:49   I bet they could get the iMac down to $700 or $800 as a Neo version if they wanted to.

00:15:56   Now, that being said, I don't think the iMac is a high volume enough product for them to care that much.

00:16:01   And it's not because of its price.

00:16:03   Like, I don't think, like, we knew there were, there's a million, there's a billion people wanting to buy a cheaper Apple laptop.

00:16:09   Because everyone wants a laptop for almost everything.

00:16:12   And a cheaper Apple laptop is the best of all worlds for most people.

00:16:16   I don't think that many people are dying to have an all-in-one desktop and saying, you know what?

00:16:22   For my all-in-one desktop, I would get the iMac, but it's just too expensive.

00:16:26   I just don't think that's that big of a market.

00:16:28   I think most people who buy iMacs are doing it for, like, aesthetic reasons in an office.

00:16:32   They don't care.

00:16:32   And most people, most consumers who are price sensitive probably aren't looking at a desktop.

00:16:37   They're probably looking at, what's the cheapest laptop I can get?

00:16:39   Because that can be my only computer.

00:16:40   Yeah, there's two separate questions.

00:16:43   It's like, could you make a new version of this product?

00:16:46   And does it make sense to?

00:16:47   And I think most people were asking, like, is it possible to make one of these?

00:16:51   But I think just that the iMac, like a lesser case of the Vision Pro, it's like, to what end?

00:16:56   Are you going to massively increase demand for the iMac by doing this?

00:16:59   Probably not.

00:16:59   Yeah.

00:17:00   All right, let's talk about Mythos.

00:17:02   William Moran writes, I am very senior in tech at one of the firms that has access to Mythos and Nightwing.

00:17:08   What is significant about it compared to previous LLMs like Sonic 4.6 or Opus 4.6 is not the ability to find bugs.

00:17:15   It is the ability to chain them together into actual practical compromises.

00:17:19   Some of the chains are 10 or more vulnerability steps long.

00:17:22   And to recap the context on this, Mythos was the LLM that's so amazing at finding security flaws that Anthropic didn't want to release it to the general public yet because it would be too dangerous.

00:17:32   They just wanted a select set of security researchers to have access to it so they could shore up their software.

00:17:36   And of course, it probably leaked due to Anthropic's own security flaws and everyone has access to it.

00:17:41   But anyway, that's one person chiming in on what makes Mythos special.

00:17:45   Then with regard to the preview and some new stuff from ChatGPT, Kyle Orland at Ars Technica writes,

00:17:54   New research from the UK's AI Security Institute, or AISI, suggests that OpenAI's GPT 5.5, which launched publicly last week, reached, quote,

00:18:02   a similar level of performance on our cyber evaluations, quote, as Mythos preview, which the group evaluated last month.

00:18:10   On the highest level expert tests, GPT 5.5 passed an average of 71.4%, slightly higher than the 68.6% achieved by Mythos preview, although this was within the margin of error.

00:18:20   GPT 5.5 also matched Mythos preview and its progress on an AISI test range set up to simulate a 32-step data extraction attack on a corporate network.

00:18:31   5.5 succeeded in 3 out of 10 attempts on TLO, compared to 2 of 10 for Mythos preview.

00:18:36   No previous model had ever succeeded at the test even once.

00:18:40   The new results for 5.5 suggests that when it comes to cybersecurity risk, Mythos preview was likely not, quote,

00:18:45   a breakthrough specific to one model, quote, but rather, quote, a byproduct of more general improvements in long-horizon autonomy, reasoning, and coding, AISI writes.

00:18:55   Yeah, so William was saying that what makes Mythos special is that it can chain together vulnerabilities, and this test was a 32-step chain that no model had ever passed, but now Mythos passes it, and so does GPT 5.5.

00:19:08   So it's not that Mythos is particularly special, like this review says.

00:19:11   It's just that this is the new state of the art in these models, and guess what?

00:19:14   Anthropics' latest model and OpenAI's latest model both are way better at this than past models.

00:19:19   Additionally, Daniel Stenberg, I can read, I swear, Daniel Stenberg writes with regard to Curl,

00:19:26   I complained and I complained about the high-frequency junk submissions to the Curl bug bounty that grew really intense during 2025 and early 2026,

00:19:34   to the degree that we shut it down completely in February 1st of this year.

00:19:38   Since March 2026, the nature of the security report submissions have changed.

00:19:43   The slop situation is not a problem anymore.

00:19:45   So does that mean that they're getting better quality AI-based submissions?

00:19:50   That is my understanding.

00:19:51   Here's my summary of this blog post, which you can read in full because it'll be linked in the notes.

00:19:55   They're getting more security and bug reports than ever, driven by AI, but now they're much higher quality than they were last year.

00:20:02   So basically it's like they were being overwhelmed by garbage reports.

00:20:06   It was like, this is wrong, and this is wrong, and this is wrong, and you'd waste your time looking at it and be like, no, it's not wrong.

00:20:10   These stupid AI reports are coming in, they're just flagging stuff that's not actually bugged and it's wasting all of our time,

00:20:14   even if they find some, because they're overwhelming us with this garbage input.

00:20:18   It's terrible.

00:20:18   But apparently since March of this year, suddenly now they're getting tons of submissions, and the quality is really high.

00:20:27   They're finding legit bugs.

00:20:28   And so Daniel was early on, on the Curl is a library that does HTTP requests, essentially.

00:20:33   That's simplifying it greatly.

00:20:34   It is the library.

00:20:36   It's what everyone uses.

00:20:38   It's used in tons of software.

00:20:40   So obviously security flaws there are really pivotal, because if you find a security flaw there, it affects so much software.

00:20:47   Because like every software that does HTTP requests probably uses this library.

00:20:50   And he's, you know, finding bugs is valuable to him as the maintainer of this project, but the slop reports were terrible.

00:20:56   But now, now they're finding legit bugs and giving high-quality reports.

00:21:00   Unfortunately, there's also more of them.

00:21:02   But fortunately, hey, they're finding even more legit bugs.

00:21:05   I think the theory is, again, you can read the blog post.

00:21:07   I think the theory is that eventually this will sort of die down more, because there's not an infinite number of bugs in code.

00:21:16   Like there's some number of bugs per line of code.

00:21:18   And when you found, not that you're finding all the bugs, but eventually it becomes much harder to find bugs when you've found all the quote-unquote obvious ones.

00:21:25   But we'll see, you know, as evidenced by both Mythos and GPT 5.5, these tools continue to rapidly advance.

00:21:32   So it may be a while before we feel like we've got all the low-hanging fruit and all the libraries that we're using.

00:21:39   Kind of tangentially related, Stevie Bonifield writes at The Verge,

00:21:43   Nearly every Linux distribution released since 2017 is currently vulnerable to a security bug called CopyFail

00:21:49   that allows any user to give themselves administrative privileges.

00:21:52   The exploit uses a Python script that works across all of the vulnerable Linux distributions,

00:21:56   requiring no per-distro offsets, no version checks, no recompilation, according to Theore, the security firm that uncovered it.

00:22:05   CopyFail was identified by Theore's researchers with assistance from their XINT code AI tool.

00:22:10   Yes, I don't know what XINT is based on, but anyway, people are just pointing these tools at just existing code bases

00:22:16   and finding just really embarrassing, really like obvious in hindsight, really dangerous security flaws.

00:22:22   Like this is not, this is like nearly every Linux distribution since 2017.

00:22:26   No special tools required.

00:22:28   Just run this Python script and give yourself root.

00:22:30   That's pretty bad.

00:22:32   And obviously you still need to be able to execute code in the thing.

00:22:34   It's not a remote exploit, blah, blah, blah.

00:22:35   But stuff like that, you would think, well, surely none of those bugs probably exist.

00:22:39   Or if they do exist, they're probably only one distro or something.

00:22:42   It's like, oof.

00:22:42   Yeah.

00:22:43   So, you know, people, these tools exist and people are using them and they're finding problems.

00:22:47   And then, you know, fingers crossed, hopefully we're all fixing them.

00:22:49   All right.

00:22:51   And then with regard to AI ruining everything from a hardware perspective instead of software,

00:22:56   Joe Rosignal at MacRumors writes, Apple has stopped offering the 256 gig storage option for the Mac Mini worldwide.

00:23:02   The Mac Mini now starts at $800 with the M4 chip, 16 gigs of RAM, and a half terabyte of storage.

00:23:07   Whereas it previously started at $600 with the M4 chip, 16 gigs of RAM, both the same, and 256 gigs of storage.

00:23:16   Yeah, this is – my overcast Mac Mini has continued to appreciate an aftermarket value.

00:23:22   Mac Minis have never gone down in value, Marco.

00:23:25   I did a quick eBay search earlier today for the sold items for my configuration, which was the former base of 16-256 regular M4,

00:23:35   which I paid an average of around $550 each for.

00:23:39   They're currently selling in used condition for around $700.

00:23:43   I didn't save this link, but I think, what was it, Paul Haddad of Tapbots posted some eBay listings for Mac Studios

00:23:51   with the big RAM configurations that Apple no longer sells, and some of them are going for $35,000.

00:23:56   Oh, yeah, I saw that.

00:23:57   Because you can't get it.

00:23:59   You just can't, like, supply and demand.

00:24:01   Hey, do you want a Mac Studio with 512 gigs of RAM?

00:24:05   They used to exist.

00:24:06   You used to be able to buy them for what we thought was a huge price, but now you can't get them at any price.

00:24:10   So check out eBay, $35,000, it can be yours.

00:24:12   And you can kind of understand, because, like, suppose you're a business and you need that for something.

00:24:18   Suppose, you know, you're, like, you know, maybe a post-production house, you need more workstations, or, you know,

00:24:22   like, the kind of business that actually needs high-end computers and, like, bills out client fees that can pay that kind of price.

00:24:28   A lot of those businesses exist.

00:24:30   A lot of people need that for their business.

00:24:32   And so it actually is potentially worth it for you to get one for $35,000 that, you know, if you have the alternative, is not getting it.

00:24:42   I mean, honestly, who would actually buy that?

00:24:45   I would imagine it would be some AI company with a huge and existing investment, and to them, this is peanuts, and you've got to spend that VC money somehow.

00:24:51   But, yeah, well, I mean, to be fair, I believe these were listings and not completed sales, so I'm not sure what they're actually going to sell for.

00:24:58   But the bottom line is, the supply and demand curve on Macs that Apple no longer sells, that Apple used to sell with a lot of RAM, is looking rough these days.

00:25:07   Yeah, listings don't matter, but you've got to scroll down and check that box that says sold items.

00:25:11   No, it's just completed items.

00:25:12   Sold items.

00:25:14   And that will tell you the prices they sell for.

00:25:15   I do have some saved eBay searches for really weird stuff, like the bent piece of metal that holds the hard drives in my Mac Pro.

00:25:22   Remember me complaining about that all those years ago?

00:25:24   And for a while, I had an eBay search.

00:25:26   I still do have it set up.

00:25:27   But I set up an eBay search to get that bent piece of metal for less money.

00:25:31   And I've left it running because I'm like, surely at some point, this stupid bent piece of metal for this obsolete computer, like, it's going to come down in price.

00:25:38   It's not going to be $400 anymore.

00:25:40   And I can tell you, as of, like, this afternoon, they're still going for hundreds of dollars.

00:25:44   Again, there's probably not that many buyers of that.

00:25:47   But I do think, though, like, the situation we are in now with component shortages, there is not a clear end in sight.

00:25:55   I think this is going to be very disruptive.

00:25:58   It already has been, but it's going to continue to be very disruptive that I think many products are going to be delayed.

00:26:03   Many products are going to be unavailable.

00:26:05   Many low-end products are going to just not be worth making.

00:26:10   You know, like, I think one of the things that kind of strained NVIDIA's gaming business is that as the rise of AI started up, you know, first, you know, I know Bitcoin miners ruined GPUs for gamers first.

00:26:23   But, like, it became not necessarily that worth it for NVIDIA to serve the gaming market that much because they were having all these giant orders for their giant chips for their other stuff.

00:26:32   And I think that kind of thing, we're going to see that in the entire industry now.

00:26:36   Because in the entire industry, the entire components and hardware business, it's worth it for them to serve the very high-priced AI customers right now and the very high-priced data center customers right now.

00:26:48   And all of us on the consumer side, we're going to get squeezed in a bunch of different unpleasant ways, Title.

00:26:55   We're going to face dynamics we haven't seen before.

00:26:57   Like, actual shortages of computing equipment mostly haven't happened in our entire lives.

00:27:04   Well, the RAM market always has those things where they misestimate demand and RAM suddenly goes up and down.

00:27:09   RAM used to fluctuate a lot more than it has recently.

00:27:11   It did, but it was, you know, oftentimes that was out of, you know, like some awful earthquake would hit Taiwan or something and, you know, that would crush RAM prices for a little while.

00:27:19   But, like, I don't think that wasn't really this big of a swing or for this long of a time or this broad of an effect.

00:27:25   In this case, what we are facing industry-wide here is significant shortages of lots of components for probably at least 18 months.

00:27:37   Like, that's wild and pretty unprecedented.

00:27:41   So I think that's going to create some strange and difficult dynamics that, you know, if we're not really planning for them, they might catch us by surprise.

00:27:49   I think, for instance, if you think you're going to need a computer this year, buy it right now.

00:27:56   Like, do not wait.

00:27:57   Like, right now, you can still get, like, if you want, say you want a new Mac.

00:28:01   If you want a MacBook Pro, you're in luck.

00:28:04   The MacBook Pros, they just got their M5 update, and you can go today and order any configuration of MacBook Pro all the way up to the max 128 gig RAM, the max chips.

00:28:15   You can get any configuration of MacBook Pro delivered in about two weeks.

00:28:19   There's nothing else you can get right now.

00:28:22   And, you know, the Air probably, too.

00:28:24   But, like, you know, no desktop.

00:28:26   It's going to be rough, and I think this is only going to get worse.

00:28:30   If you need a computer anytime soon, get it now while you still can, because in three or six months, you might be facing delays of three to 12 months to get that computer.

00:28:45   And this is also, obviously, very important for businesses.

00:28:47   Businesses are going through the same calculus of, like, well, you know, if we need to, like, get a new laptop or whatever for everybody we hire, maybe we should buy a few in advance.

00:28:55   You know, like, think about how the problems this creates for businesses, too.

00:28:59   It's massive.

00:29:00   So we are going to have to be very aware of this dynamic.

00:29:03   As consumers, you know, we are kind of last priority for a lot of these products, and there are shortages already, and they're going to get worse.

00:29:14   And so, you know, on the silver lining front, maybe having a direct, large financial incentive to eek more power out of the computers that we already have might result in another good effect in the industry.

00:29:31   Maybe we'll have things become a little bit more efficient.

00:29:33   Maybe we'll have people, you know, care more about things like repairability.

00:29:38   We'll see, you know, those kind of effects might happen as a result of this, but in the meantime, we're all going to be crunched, and I think we need to be prepared for that, which is one of the strangest excuses I've ever given anybody to buy a MacBook Pro, but here we are.

00:29:52   You are the king of good excuses.

00:29:54   This reminds me a lot of when you couldn't get a car or a new car anyway because of the chip shortage.

00:29:59   There's a chip shortage, you fellas, and, you know, you couldn't get a new car not easily and not quickly during, you know, the height of COVID, and I feel like this is that, but much worse and much more universally applicable.

00:30:09   Yeah, totally.

00:30:10   Tim Hardwick in MacRumors writes,

00:30:12   Apple's considering dropping the cheapest MacBook Neo configuration as one possible response to the rising cost of building the popular laptop, according to Tim Colpan, a former Bloomberg reporter.

00:30:22   Shipping estimates on Apple's website currently set at two to three weeks across the lineup, following stronger than expected demand, and the company is said to have instructed suppliers to increase production capacity to 10 million units, roughly double the original forecast of five to six million.

00:30:34   I mean, good news for the Neo.

00:30:35   It's selling really well.

00:30:37   Yeah.

00:30:37   But this could be a problem.

00:30:40   Like, I mean, you can see why Apple would really not want to say anything negative or cause any negative press about the MacBook Neo right now because it's a hit.

00:30:51   It's a runaway hit.

00:30:53   Like, it's doing great.

00:30:54   And for the Neo to either have to, you know, cut its cheaper price option, which is one rumor that I saw blow by, or to have, you know, just extended wait times for it.

00:31:06   Those aren't great looks.

00:31:07   And, you know, not Apple's fault.

00:31:10   Like, they have a hit on their hands, you know, which is otherwise great news.

00:31:14   But I bet Apple would bend over backwards to avoid having to say or do anything negative about the Neo right now.

00:31:23   Tim Colpan adds in his own post, the renewed commitment to meeting demand means Apple must also ask TSMC for a hot lot of A18 Pro chips.

00:31:33   The initial production run was at least two years ago.

00:31:35   John, what's a hot lot?

00:31:36   Is that when they're stolen?

00:31:37   I don't know.

00:31:37   He italicized it in his thing, too.

00:31:39   So maybe it's a term of art in the industry, or maybe it's just Tim Colpan being spicy.

00:31:43   But, yeah, you got to go back to TSMC and say, can we get more of these?

00:31:47   Yeah, I also agree that one of the worst things that Apple could do to the Neo right now is cut the low-end model, because that's like, that's the whole point of the product.

00:31:55   Don't do that.

00:31:55   But, yeah, I mean, as Marco said, a lot of the situation out there is that, like, suppliers are telling manufacturers, we don't have any more of these things to sell you until X number of months in the future.

00:32:09   So what are you doing that?

00:32:10   It's not like it's like, oh, how much?

00:32:11   Like, even if you had infinite money, like, they're all bought.

00:32:14   Like, there's no more.

00:32:15   You have to wait for more to be built.

00:32:17   And the ones we have, we have already sold.

00:32:19   Or the ones that are coming are already been bought and bought.

00:32:21   You know, so that's supply and demand.

00:32:23   It makes prices go up.

00:32:24   It's not great.

00:32:25   I think Apple will hold the line on this one, because this is definitely the type of thing that Apple can absorb.

00:32:30   But it's not fun for anybody.

00:32:32   Apple's capital expenditures.

00:32:35   Let's talk Apple Car and what other companies are spending on AI.

00:32:38   So capital expenditure is, or capital expense, is the money an organization spends to buy, maintain, or improve its fixed assets, such as buildings, vehicles, equipment, or land.

00:32:46   It is considered a capital expenditure when the asset is newly purchased or when money is used toward extending the useful life of an existing asset, such as repairing a roof.

00:32:54   Capital expenditures contrast with operating expenses, or OPEX, which are ongoing expenses that are inherent to the operation of the asset.

00:33:03   OPEX includes items like electricity or cleaning.

00:33:05   The difference between OPEX and CAPEX, or capital expenditure, may not be immediately obvious for some expenses.

00:33:10   For instance, repaving the parking lot may be thought of as inherent to the operation of a shopping mall.

00:33:15   Similarly, the cost of software for a business, either software development or software-as-a-service licensing, might fall into either OPEX or CAPEX.

00:33:21   That is, is it merely business as usual, or is it something new, an investment with multi-year return?

00:33:27   The dividing line for items like these is that the expense is considered CAPEX if the financial benefit of the expenditure extends beyond the current fiscal year.

00:33:35   So during my career having a regular jobby job for 25 years, whether or not the work that I was doing, software development, was considered CAPEX or OPEX, has changed several times in ways that has affected me at my job.

00:33:51   Because this is just from the Wikipedia page.

00:33:54   You say, what is CAPEX and what is OPEX?

00:33:55   And as I think the Wikipedia page makes clear, it's not always cut and dry.

00:34:00   Like, you can argue both ways.

00:34:02   And the real answer is like, what do our lawyers slash financial people tell us we either have to do or we should do to optimize whatever the hell it is the CFO optimizes, tax burden or whatever, right?

00:34:14   So at various times it has been like, you're a software developer, you don't have to worry, you're pretty little head about this.

00:34:20   This is all taken care of for you.

00:34:21   Other times it's like, log everything you do, because we've decided that we're going to count all software development of any kind as CAPEX.

00:34:30   And we need to have a catalog of it for tax reasons, because we've decided this is the way we're doing it.

00:34:34   And sometimes it's been in between.

00:34:35   Oh, well, this group does.

00:34:37   When these people write code, it's CAPEX.

00:34:39   But when these people write code, it's OPEX.

00:34:41   Again, like the, you know, is repaving the parking lot, CAPEX or OPEX.

00:34:44   It's like, well, is this just an ongoing expense, like electricity or cleaning?

00:34:48   Or is this like a new thing where like, you know, you're making the parking lot fancier?

00:34:52   Like, I don't even know.

00:34:54   I'm not interested in what goes into this, but I'm saying that it's not always cut and dry.

00:34:57   What if you pave it really poorly and you have to do it every year?

00:35:00   Right.

00:35:01   But like, the reason this comes up is I think this was a couple of shows back where we were talking about, I think it was probably in the, like, Tim Cook Turnus, like, turnover episode.

00:35:10   Like, what is Apple, you know, what does Apple spend money on?

00:35:16   And in the Tim Cook era, they wasted all this money in the car.

00:35:18   And one of the points it made was like, yeah, Apple burned a lot of time and money and people and goodwill on the car.

00:35:22   But now, nowadays, looking at the current landscape where Apple's, you know, peers in the technology market, they're spending so much money on AI stuff that everything Apple has ever spent on the car in the past decade is dwarfed by what people are doing with AI right now.

00:35:39   And that's all talking about CapEx.

00:35:41   And to the people who are financial nerds who are into this, like this blog post we're about to read here, I think it's from M.G. Siegler, or eventually we'll get to it.

00:35:50   They've been looking at Apple and saying, hey, Apple, why are all your competitors massively increasing their CapEx on AI stuff?

00:35:59   Data sensors, chips, RAM, $100 million salaries for fancy AI people or whatever.

00:36:05   Whereas when we look at your CapEx, it's, you're not doing that.

00:36:09   And you're out of step with your industry.

00:36:10   Are you falling behind and blah, blah, blah.

00:36:12   We often have the, is Apple falling behind discussion in the realm of, like, consumer facing, why does Siri suck?

00:36:17   Why are Apple's hardware products being delayed because Siri sucks?

00:36:20   How can they not deliver the, the stuff that they announced in WWDC 2024, that type of thing.

00:36:26   But then the financial people are like, Apple, why aren't you doing the things your competitors are doing?

00:36:31   And so they're getting it from both sides here.

00:36:32   So I did pull out some info about Apple's CapEx to put hard numbers to the thing that I just vaguely alluded to in the earlier episode.

00:36:40   So Marcus Mendez writes at 9to5Mac, as part of its fiscal quarter two of 2026 results, Apple reported $11.4 billion in R&D expenses, up 34% from Q2 2025, making it the highest quarterly figure in the company's history.

00:36:55   So $11.5 billion is as high as it's ever been.

00:36:58   Tim Cook says we are clearly investing more.

00:37:01   You can see that in the OPEX numbers.

00:37:03   And if you click down on those a step deeper and look at the R&D areas separate from SG&A, which is selling, general, and administrative, you'll find that R&D is even accelerating much higher than the company is.

00:37:14   So we're clearly investing and we're investing in products and services.

00:37:17   Yeah, so this is talking about OPEX and SG&A is another one of those terms that comes up in your eyes glaze over about expenses.

00:37:23   I'll link to the Wikipedia page on that as well.

00:37:25   But these are the numbers they're talking about and they're saying they're up 34% from Q2 2025 to $11 billion.

00:37:30   And there's a chart in the 9to5Mac article which shows like 2022 to current.

00:37:33   And you can see it's been slowly going up.

00:37:36   And then 2026 has a bit more of a bump.

00:37:38   But then we get to MG Siegler's post about CapEx.

00:37:40   Right.

00:37:42   So MG Siegler writes, in 2021, Apple spent $11.1 billion on CapEx.

00:37:47   In 2022, that number fell slightly to $10.7 billion.

00:37:50   In 2023, it was back up to $11 billion.

00:37:52   By 2024, it was down a bit to $9.4 billion.

00:37:54   2025 saw a jump to $12.7 billion.

00:37:57   In 2026, with half the fiscal year in the books, Apple's on track to spend $9 to $10 billion on CapEx.

00:38:03   One could imagine a banker in Wall Street conjuring Matthew McConaughey in Dazed and Confused.

00:38:07   That's what I love about Apple, man.

00:38:09   Their big tech peers go crazy on CapEx, but they stay in the same range.

00:38:12   The dichotomy is so wild that it now gets written about every single quarter.

00:38:17   But the dichotomy also keeps growing every single quarter as big tech keeps ramping CapEx and Apple stays the same.

00:38:23   This chart, which is in his blog post, which is in the show notes, says it all.

00:38:27   So this chart shows 2020 through 2026 CapEx of Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Facebook.

00:38:33   And Apple is the first blip.

00:38:35   They're dark blue in the little bar chart things.

00:38:38   And if you look at the dark blue bump, as TNC just read the text, the little dark blue bump in 2020, 2021, 22, 23, 24, 25, it's like the same.

00:38:46   It doesn't move much.

00:38:47   It goes up and down a little bit, but stays about the same.

00:38:50   The other lines in the chart, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Facebook, go bonkers starting in like 2024, 2025, and 2026.

00:38:59   To the point where the, where is it?

00:39:01   The Amazon line is at, what is that, 200 billion in 2026?

00:39:07   Facebook is at about 150.

00:39:09   Google and Microsoft are both about like 180 or so.

00:39:14   And Apple is, as we said before, nine or 10.

00:39:16   Like they're just so incredibly out of step.

00:39:19   And speaking of the car project, looking on this graph, the car project ended in 2024.

00:39:25   That is not visible on this graph.

00:39:27   The end of the car project.

00:39:28   Now Apple's no longer wasting billions of dollars on the car.

00:39:31   Surely their line will change in an appreciable way.

00:39:33   Maybe it does if it was just Apple being shown here.

00:39:36   But in the scope, like this was my point.

00:39:38   In the scope of what everyone else is spending on AI stuff and CapEx, money that they're laying out for things that are not just like ongoing expenses, but like we need to, you know, buy tons of GPUs, build new data centers, like new stuff or whatever, whatever rules they're using to consider it CapEx.

00:39:54   Apple is not doing what everybody else is doing.

00:39:58   And there's, you know, we've had debates about this from, again, from the product perspective.

00:40:01   Are they falling behind for what reasons are they falling behind or whatever?

00:40:05   But on the financial side, this is the other side of it, which is like, is Apple investing versus is Apple smarter than everybody else?

00:40:13   And everyone else is going to waste all this money.

00:40:15   And when the bubble pops, they're all going to be left holding the bag and they're just burning through cash.

00:40:18   And Apple is going to be sitting on the sideline going, we didn't have to do any of that.

00:40:20   We saved our money.

00:40:21   We'll see how this turns out.

00:40:23   But the as MGT says, the dichotomy is clear.

00:40:27   Like looking at this graph, one of these things is not like the other.

00:40:31   And it's Apple.

00:40:33   We know that over historically, Apple is pretty stingy with how and where it spends money.

00:40:40   So that could be an effect here.

00:40:42   But and I would say like combining like referring to the car project here as as like, oh, it didn't matter.

00:40:47   They blew all that time with the car.

00:40:48   I think this is the point of why the car, I think, was so damaging to the company.

00:40:54   It wasn't about money.

00:40:55   Apple has plenty of money and has for a long time.

00:40:58   It was about talent drain and opportunity cost.

00:41:00   The car pulled a lot of talent from other areas of the company.

00:41:04   They hired a lot of people for the car project, though, too.

00:41:07   Like it wasn't it's not like they they took the Mac OS people and put them on the car.

00:41:10   No, like they also hired people.

00:41:12   But that was a significant talent drain.

00:41:16   And while some of it probably resulted in some things they could use after the car project was was killed.

00:41:22   Most of it probably wasn't.

00:41:24   So it was that was the bigger opportunity cost.

00:41:27   Apple is limited way more by like talent and bandwidth, so to speak, than they are by money.

00:41:35   But I think if you can fault them for, you know, not having enough CapEx or, you know, whatever development, you know, R&D costs.

00:41:45   I think it's it's not necessarily that, oh, they wasted money on the car and then, you know, wow, look, A.I. dwarfs it.

00:41:51   Like, no, it's it's more like A.I. is like a huge deal.

00:41:55   Apple is nowhere in it.

00:41:57   And they also separately had a car project that drained a lot of talent and was a big distraction for a long time.

00:42:03   Yeah.

00:42:03   My main point is not to say that Apple didn't waste money in the car project.

00:42:06   It's to say that everyone else is potentially wasting so much more money on A.I.

00:42:10   Or maybe it's not a waste.

00:42:11   Like what I'm trying to say is that, like, again, if this graph was just Apple, you talk about the car project and you talk about the money wasted, the time wasted, the opportunity cost, all this other stuff.

00:42:20   You know, obviously it wasn't a successful product, although I still say it was successful and that they thankfully didn't ship something that they would be embarrassed by or whatever.

00:42:28   But like it was misguided.

00:42:30   It was mismanaged.

00:42:31   It was rebooted too many times.

00:42:32   Johnny Ive insisted not have a steering wheel.

00:42:34   They wanted a dragon.

00:42:35   They didn't have one.

00:42:36   Like the whole nine yards, right?

00:42:37   And it was a waste of money and everything.

00:42:39   But Apple is notoriously stingy.

00:42:40   So even though over 10 years they spent billions of dollars, still generally dropping the bucket.

00:42:45   But what this chart shows is what the rest of Apple's peers are doing right now.

00:42:51   And essentially how it either looks like they all know something Apple doesn't or it shows that they are panicking and Apple isn't.

00:42:58   We'll find out which one of those things is true because I don't think they can both be true, right?

00:43:02   Like they're spending so much money.

00:43:05   Just astronomical sums.

00:43:07   I mean, they have the money.

00:43:08   Like these are very wealthy companies.

00:43:09   It's not like they're bankrupting themselves by spending this money.

00:43:11   But like they're not just outspending Apple by a little bit.

00:43:14   Like AI is different than any other.

00:43:16   Like if you go back to any other trends or boom that Apple didn't follow, like everyone's investing in netbooks.

00:43:21   These bars were not like this when netbooks were popular, right?

00:43:24   Like whatever the thing is, even if you went back and looked at it, like this is always funny when we talk about this number.

00:43:29   Like in the smartphone revolution, how much money was Microsoft spending on mobile devices versus how much money was Apple spending?

00:43:40   And the bars would have looked pretty similar.

00:43:41   I think like the estimate I always see in those various stories about like how much money did Apple invest before they could ship the first iPhone?

00:43:48   It was like $150 million or something to get the first iPhone out the door, which at the time, you know, Ian, you're taking people off teams or whatever.

00:43:55   But like how much additional money did you have to drop in before you ship the first iPhone?

00:43:59   $150 million to get that business started was a really good deal.

00:44:04   That was $150 million, extremely well spent.

00:44:07   And I bet during that same time period, Microsoft probably spent more on mobile than Apple did.

00:44:11   They just made worse choices and didn't get the same end result.

00:44:17   But then like, again, those lines wouldn't show up on this graph at all because these are in billions, right?

00:44:21   This would be the thickness of the x-axis.

00:44:24   It's just astronomical how much money is being spent.

00:44:28   And by the way, all those hardware shortages, you can see that in these lines too.

00:44:31   Who's buying all the hardware so I can't get RAM?

00:44:34   These bars, this right here, this is where it's all going.

00:44:36   That's why you can't get the Mac that you want.

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00:46:41   We talked about MacBook Neo-ing all the things,

00:46:46   but John, you want to go to a different direction this week.

00:46:49   What are we talking about?

00:46:50   Do the pun. Do it, Casey. Do it for me.

00:46:52   The Age of Ultra on Apple products.

00:46:56   Thank you.

00:46:57   I worked hard on that one.

00:46:58   I'm here to serve, John.

00:47:00   I mean, I'm making dated references.

00:47:02   The kids remember those movies? It was a long time ago.

00:47:04   No, they're so good, though.

00:47:06   But this really is what this is about.

00:47:08   We did talk about Neo-ing,

00:47:09   and what this topic is specifically,

00:47:11   sticking the word Ultra on Apple products,

00:47:15   which is different than, I mean,

00:47:16   we weren't talking about sticking the word Neo.

00:47:17   We're talking about Neo-ing in terms of,

00:47:19   we have the MacBook Neo, which is a real product,

00:47:20   and it's the first one to have that suffix

00:47:23   and kind of do it to other products.

00:47:24   But there are existing Apple products with Ultra stuck on the end of it.

00:47:29   This, the question here is, and this is based on a whole bunch of rumors,

00:47:33   the rumors are swirling and people love to see a pattern.

00:47:35   Apple's going to stick the word Ultra on the end of a bunch of products.

00:47:39   Maybe products that we've already talked about,

00:47:41   but suddenly when you stick Ultra on all the end of them,

00:47:43   is this the Age of Ultra on Apple products?

00:47:46   All right, so we're starting with the iPhone Ultra,

00:47:50   and John's favorite YouTuber, Max Tech,

00:47:52   shows off some, I guess they were like aluminum or some sort of metal models

00:47:56   that looked very accurate.

00:47:57   And if you're to believe the video, and I have no reason not to,

00:48:00   the same leaker that came up with these specs or printed or whatever

00:48:04   made these metal objects, did it a year ago for the iPhone 17.

00:48:09   They've done this for the past several models.

00:48:11   You can get these essentially down to the fractional millimeter accurate models

00:48:14   of the iPhone months before they come out.

00:48:16   So I have no reason to doubt these.

00:48:17   But if you want to see the foldable phone in physical form, this is it.

00:48:22   But the reason this is part of this section is,

00:48:25   hey, you know the foldable phone we've been talking about?

00:48:27   One of the names that's been remembered for it has been iPhone Ultra.

00:48:30   It's a pretty obvious choice.

00:48:31   Since the very first time that the foldable phone was rumored years ago,

00:48:35   iPhone Ultra was thrown out there along with iPhone Fold, iPhone Duo, whatever.

00:48:38   But in the light of this new Apple's going to stick Ultra on all their products,

00:48:42   it's really cementing iPhone Ultra as the favorite name for this particular phone.

00:48:48   And it is an interesting start to the Ultra family of products that is rumored here

00:48:53   because, I mean, the reason I put a link to the thing with showing the models of it

00:48:59   is when I see that little, you know, aluminum model in the hands of a person and they're,

00:49:05   you know, manipulating it and folding it and using it, it looks to me like,

00:49:09   and I've seen other people say this as well, this is kind of the spiritual successor to the iPhone mini.

00:49:15   And you're going to put Ultra on this product?

00:49:18   Now, in one respect, Ultra will apply because rumors are that it will be ultra expensive because, hey,

00:49:24   screen's the most expensive part.

00:49:25   And this has two screens, one of which is twice as big as you would expect.

00:49:30   And it's obviously expensive and fancy to make the folding screen and you got to make the sides thin and all, you know,

00:49:35   it's going to, the rumor is, it's going to be more expensive.

00:49:38   If you look at all the folding phones in the industry, they tend to be very expensive models.

00:49:41   So Ultra makes sense.

00:49:42   Well, when I look at the actual phone, I'm like, oh, look, it's a phone for people who miss the iPhone mini because it's so small.

00:49:48   It's so short when it's, I mean, it's thick, it's fat, it's chunky when you have it folded up.

00:49:53   But one of the points that's made in the video is like, look how easy I can reach everywhere on the screen with my thumb when it's folded up.

00:49:58   It's like the fat nano of iPhones.

00:50:01   I mean, if you want to look it that way or the iPhone mini.

00:50:03   So right away, I feel like this is a weird product to be called Ultra because when I was in, it was iPhone Ultra,

00:50:09   that term was being applied to phones many years ago, even before the foldable phone was a rumor.

00:50:15   And people were like, Apple's going to come out with another phone that's even more expensive than the iPhone Pro Max.

00:50:20   And they're going to call it the iPhone Ultra.

00:50:22   And here's the ways that it's going to be better.

00:50:24   And there was like sort of a combination of the iPhone Air rumors with maybe the nascent iPhone folding phone rumors or whatever.

00:50:30   But that made sense to me.

00:50:32   It's like, can you make a high end phone that's higher end than the Pro or Pro Max and you call it Ultra and you spend more money for it.

00:50:37   But the folding phone, other than the fact that it's going to be the most expensive iPhone ever,

00:50:41   Ultra seems like a weird choice for the name.

00:50:44   But rumor has it that's what they're going to go with.

00:50:47   Yeah, I don't, I, it doesn't quite fit the foldable for me if the rumors are correct about, you know, the size and everything.

00:50:55   I do think that this is less expensive for the iPhone mini than you think.

00:51:01   Because first of all, like I took up that 3D printer model that I, that I have that everybody made a couple months back.

00:51:08   And like, I can't reach the corner at all.

00:51:11   I can reach about three quarters of the way to, you know, diagonal end to end.

00:51:16   So I still have a big sweep up there that I cannot reach because it's wide.

00:51:20   Do you have a mini to compare with?

00:51:22   Yes.

00:51:24   Also for what it's worth, Max Tech had said that the initial read on the Ultra was that it would be much taller than people are saying it is now.

00:51:31   I think the model you had matches what he had, but.

00:51:34   Yeah, I don't know if it, like the model, the ones that he's got are the ones that they make when they're like, when they, like the case manufacturers use these like that.

00:51:40   I'm pretty sure they're accurate.

00:51:41   I'm not sure if the 3D print was close, but it might be.

00:51:44   Yeah, so the mini compared to this model, the mini is a little bit taller, but a lot narrower.

00:51:49   Yeah, I guess it depends on the size of your hands and thumbs.

00:51:52   Like, I don't know how big the Max Tech guy's hands are.

00:51:54   I mean, I don't think I have giant hands by any means, but they're not like tiny Trump hands.

00:51:58   But anyway, calling this an Ultra is a little bit of an odd move because, first of all, it is going to be very different than the others.

00:52:08   Like, it's not going to be better in all ways.

00:52:10   It's going to be worse in a few ways.

00:52:12   When you look at previous uses of the name Ultra, you know, the M-Chip Ultras and the Apple Watch Ultra, those are like, we took what was good about the thing before and just increased everything as much as we could.

00:52:25   Like, we gave you everything.

00:52:26   That's not what the foldable is doing.

00:52:28   The foldable is increasing some things a lot, like the unfolded screen size is going to be dramatically increased.

00:52:34   But then the folded up screen size is going to be shrunk and weird.

00:52:37   And take away a camera, most importantly.

00:52:38   Right, they're going to probably take away cameras.

00:52:40   It's going to be questionable on things like how the battery life situation is going to work out, what other kind of limitations or sidesteps it's going to have, and other features.

00:52:49   Will it have things like magnetic charging?

00:52:51   Who knows?

00:52:52   Will it work with cases?

00:52:53   Who knows?

00:52:54   You know, will it have all the other, you know, will it have like the heat management features of the Pro line?

00:52:59   Probably not, because I don't know how it would fit in there.

00:53:02   Like, there's all sorts of trade-offs.

00:53:03   You can look at the iPhone Air for, you know, a preview of probably what kind of trade-offs were required to get the thickness, you know, required in there.

00:53:12   And like, I think we're going to have a similar number of trade-offs.

00:53:14   I think it's also going to be, you know, it's going to be mini in some ways, sometimes, but one way it's not going to be mini is how it feels in your hand, because it's going to be not only wide, but I would also guess heavy.

00:53:30   Because this is a lot of mechanical parts, a lot of mechanical complexity.

00:53:34   I think it's going to be dense, and it's not going to feel mini at all, although it will feel ultra.

00:53:39   And thicker, obviously.

00:53:40   Yeah, obviously very thick.

00:53:41   Yeah, so like, so I think it's going to be a bit of a sidestep, but what ultra tends to mean in Apple's usage so far is, we gave you the best and the most of everything.

00:53:52   And that's not what this is.

00:53:53   This is kind of a sidestep.

00:53:54   So I don't think they're going to use that name for this.

00:53:56   I think they're going to use a different name.

00:53:58   Well, I agree with you about what ultra has historically meant, but I don't agree with you with the logic leap.

00:54:04   Therefore, that's not what Apple's going to do, because Apple does not care about logic or past patterns.

00:54:10   They just name things whatever the hell they want.

00:54:12   And we're like, but wait, that doesn't make any sense.

00:54:14   Your past two things were like this, and now this thing is like this.

00:54:17   And Apple just goes, eh?

00:54:18   And they shrug, and we get it.

00:54:20   So, but anyway, these are just rumors.

00:54:21   So the iPhone ultra, and Stephen Hackett, he put his money down on iPhone ultra.

00:54:25   I think he thinks that he was early.

00:54:27   He's like, I'm putting, this is going to be called the iPhone ultra.

00:54:29   But he was like, you know, probably a year after the first time that was, name was connected with the phone.

00:54:33   But he's very convinced, apparently.

00:54:34   I don't think he has any inside info.

00:54:36   But there you have it.

00:54:37   iPhone ultra, potentially one of the ultras.

00:54:39   And to be fair to the iPhone ultra, this has been the leading contender for the name.

00:54:43   People have basically been calling it the iPhone ultra when they didn't just call it the folding iPhone.

00:54:47   Duo has not caught on among the rumors.

00:54:50   And iPhone fold, no one seems to really believe that's going to be a thing.

00:54:53   So if they don't call it ultra, I'm not sure what they're going to call it.

00:54:56   But that's our first ultra product.

00:54:58   All right.

00:54:59   Moving on.

00:55:00   MacBook ultra, otherwise known as the M6 based OLED MacBook Pro with a touchscreen and dynamic

00:55:05   dynamic island.

00:55:06   And maybe Marco Arment, maybe cellular.

00:55:09   We'll see.

00:55:10   This is the MacBook Pro we've been talking about.

00:55:13   They're like, oh, I remember when it was like, and they're going to have the M6 MacBook Pros

00:55:16   of this year, too.

00:55:17   That's the rumor.

00:55:18   I would say, I think we talked about this last episode, like based on the component shortages,

00:55:21   the having the M6 based MacBook Pros come out in calendar year 2026 seems vanishingly likely

00:55:29   at this point.

00:55:30   So, yeah, too bad for that.

00:55:32   But this this product's been rumored for a long time.

00:55:34   We're like, oh, you can get the M5 ones if you're comfortable with the design again before

00:55:37   the component shortages gave you another reason to.

00:55:39   We're like, hey, if you just want something that's tried and true and tested and you know

00:55:42   what they're like, the M5 MacBook Pros are great.

00:55:44   You can get one.

00:55:45   They're available right now.

00:55:46   The next one is going to be fancier in so many ways.

00:55:50   It's going to have the OLED screen, right?

00:55:52   It's going to be M6 based.

00:55:53   It's going to be a new design for the case, which we haven't had in a long time, supposedly

00:55:56   also thinner.

00:55:57   It's going to have dynamic island and a touchscreen and maybe cellular.

00:55:59   Like, wow, I should wait for the M6 based one.

00:56:03   But all of those rumors were kind of like, you know, we have the M5 based MacBook Pro and

00:56:09   every once in a while that Apple redesigns its things.

00:56:12   Mac money gets a new case and becomes smaller.

00:56:14   The current MacBook Pro design was a redesign of the previous one.

00:56:17   Like, it just makes sense.

00:56:19   But the current rumor is, oh, no, they're not just going to roll out this thing, this M6 OLED

00:56:25   base, blah, blah, blah, touchscreen, dynamic island MacBook Pro as the successor to the M5

00:56:29   ones.

00:56:29   No, they're going to call it the MacBook Ultra.

00:56:34   As in, this is not the MacBook Pro.

00:56:36   The MacBook Pro has an M5, you see, and a non OLED screen and no touchscreen and no dynamic

00:56:41   island and no cellular.

00:56:42   But this is a new class of MacBook, presumably for more money.

00:56:47   That's I feel like it's the only consistent theme of Ultra so far for more money.

00:56:51   And we'll keep selling the MacBook Pro with the M5 in it, I guess, in the old case.

00:56:57   But if you want a MacBook Ultra, which is somewhat disappointing to me because I just assume it's

00:57:03   like this is the next best, greatest MacBook Pro.

00:57:06   It's no less a MacBook Pro than any of its predecessors.

00:57:10   Yes, they occasionally go through these, you know, redesign, revision things, but we don't

00:57:15   change the product line to say, OK, well, now this is a whole different product.

00:57:19   No, it's just the next slate.

00:57:20   It's the next evolution in the MacBook Pro.

00:57:22   Why do you have to call it Ultra?

00:57:23   And when I see the name Ultra rumor for this, I think, well, they either want to or have to

00:57:28   charge massively more money for it.

00:57:31   Or they love the idea of having an even higher priced, higher margin model in the MacBook

00:57:37   Pro line so they can keep selling the MacBook Pro for the people who can't tolerate how massively

00:57:43   we're going to gouge them for this new one.

00:57:44   And by the way, this new one will be way nicer than the old one in a lot of ways.

00:57:50   Newly redesigned thing, much better screen, touchscreen, the dynamic ion cellular, like these are all

00:57:56   features that just didn't exist before on the line.

00:57:59   So I see that if you're going to make this split, now's the time to do it.

00:58:02   But it pains me a little bit to see them trying if they assuming again, assuming this is even

00:58:06   true, trying to split the line in a way that I think is not justified by what I see as simply

00:58:14   making the MacBook Pro catch up to modern specs in all regards.

00:58:18   See, I think this the the MacBook Ultra idea makes a lot more sense than the iPhone Ultra being

00:58:26   the foldable like this to me. It's like you want to you want to give everybody the most.

00:58:31   And again, look at the Apple Watch Ultra for a for like, you know, a precedent here.

00:58:35   The Apple Watch Ultra didn't need to be the thinnest, sleekest Apple Watch model.

00:58:42   It was the one that was like if people want absurd battery life, much higher durability,

00:58:48   much brighter screen, much more depth rating, you know, all the different things the Ultra

00:58:52   gives you, you know, things like the siren and the speaker and the extra button and like

00:58:57   all this stuff. The Ultra was like, we are going to prioritize giving you the most that you could

00:59:04   possibly want out of this device. And we are that that allows us to make something that is thick

00:59:11   and blocky and has expensive metals in it and stuff like that. And that will that will help

00:59:17   achieve that goal because this product doesn't need to be the thin, sleek, mass market thing for the

00:59:22   more mass market targeted price. So when you take that attitude and consider how could you make a

00:59:28   MacBook Pro Ultra with that style so you can you can brainstorm things like, yes, it would have

00:59:34   the higher end component, the OLED screen. You know, maybe it has, you know, a higher end tier

00:59:41   of chips available. I don't necessarily. Oh, that's the other thing about it. Does that mean

00:59:45   the MacBook Pro is never going to get the M6? Or will it just get it like on a staggered pace? Like

00:59:50   right now, the MacBook Air has like a staggered CPU, you know, from the from the pro line. Maybe there

00:59:58   is another subdivision of chip. I don't know if the I don't know if it's feasible for the laptop

01:00:03   thermal envelope to include like the actual Ultra chip. That seems unlikely. Yeah, that's the only

01:00:09   thing I think would justify the Ultra Ultra name is if they actually did have an M6 class chip that

01:00:15   is unprecedented, like that is just bigger and hotter than has ever. But I don't think it's

01:00:20   going to be the case because again, the rumor is that the the rumored MacBook Ultra will be thinner

01:00:24   than the existing M5 MacBook Pros. Maybe they're achieving that through things like a more expensive

01:00:30   metal. Maybe they maybe it'll be titanium. I don't know. It's been done before, not recently,

01:00:34   but it's been and not without its problems. But you know, we have a different world now.

01:00:39   They're gonna be that fancy metal that we talked about in the earlier episode.

01:00:41   Yeah, like I don't know how it would work out cost wise. But but certainly like you can imagine,

01:00:46   okay, a MacBook Pro that has the best possible screen they can ship the fastest chip they can ship.

01:00:53   Maybe it has higher resource limits on RAM and storage. Also,

01:00:56   what if it's only available in 16 inch, and that gives them a few more options of the configuration

01:01:01   options they can out they can offer, you know, what if it is titanium? What if it is,

01:01:05   you know, better battery life than all the other ones, because it's a little bit bigger,

01:01:08   a little bit heavier, but it's Ultra, it's allowed to be. There's a lot of freedom that's

01:01:13   offered by the concept of making something of having an Ultra line. And I think the Apple Watch

01:01:18   Ultra, I think has been a big success in in a lot of those ways. So hopefully, there is something to

01:01:25   that besides just a higher price. Yeah, I think if the Ultra actually was like the watch where it was

01:01:30   actually bigger, thicker and had higher specs in all regards, I would accept it. The thing that

01:01:34   burns me up about this, though, is that I feel like the MacBook Pros are overdue to have OLED

01:01:38   touchscreen is not a high end feature. It's on $300 laptops, right? The dynamic island is not

01:01:43   so amazing that you need to have be the high price thing. And I don't think they're going to put a

01:01:47   bigger, faster, hotter chip in it. I think it's just going to have the same chips. It just it just

01:01:51   kind of annoys me to like, essentially fence off what used to be like we used to when the new MacBook

01:01:56   Pros came out, they got the the the the pro and the max version of the plane, the pro and the max

01:02:02   version of the latest M chips. And that's just what we accepted. And now it's like, okay, well,

01:02:06   now there's this staggered thing. Only the ultras get the latest version of the pro and the max chips,

01:02:09   you got to wait for the other ones that trickle down. And by the way, this is an excuse for us to

01:02:13   to to keep tech from trickling down. Like basically, the Apple trickle down thing is

01:02:17   we have to have a somewhat they try to have a somewhat sensible line where the higher end ones

01:02:22   have options lower end ones don't, which is why the non pro phones took so long to get promotion

01:02:27   because it was just a differentiator for the pro phones. What this would mean is that don't hold

01:02:32   your breath for the MacBook Air to get an OLED screen because that's like a 2029 product. I forget

01:02:36   what the rumors are for that. But it's like, that's got to trickle all it's not even going to go in the

01:02:39   MacBook Pro. It's only going to be the ultra pros still don't get it. Then eventually it has to

01:02:45   trickle down to the MacBook Pro when they go fine, it's not going to be exclusive to the ultra in this

01:02:49   third generation of the ultra product. Now the MacBook Pro will get it. And then you got to wait

01:02:52   another three years for to say, fine, a MacBook Air can have an OLED screen. And that's how Apple

01:02:57   essentially gets embarrassingly behind on technology that is found in commodity products where the OLED

01:03:02   screen, the price of OLED screens, one of the few components that is not going through the roof

01:03:06   right now. Although I'm sure everything is increasing a little bit because of carry on

01:03:09   effects, but like screen prices do go down. Screen quality does get better, but Apple just holds the

01:03:14   line and says, no, OLED is an ultra feature only. And it has to stay that way for years. And that

01:03:20   just, that annoys me. So I'm, I'm not happy about this rumor if it turns out to be true.

01:03:24   I mean, I'm happy about it. If I get my cellular MacBook Pro, that's all I'm saying.

01:03:27   Yeah. That's the other thing you think like, oh, we want cellular so much. Guess what? Your only

01:03:30   choice for cellular, which is like, again, a thing that you can get on like a base level iPad,

01:03:35   right. Your only choice is the three starting at $3,000 MacBook ultra or something that that feels

01:03:40   gross too. You know, it's funny when I bought my current computer that I'm using to speak,

01:03:45   you speak to you right now, which is an M three max MacBook pro with an, with a M three max in it

01:03:51   and 64 gigs Ram eight terabytes of storage. I thought it'll last me a year or two, which has been

01:03:56   typical for me for the last several years. And now I think three years in, uh, I'm expecting that I'm

01:04:03   going to hold onto this until the MacBook ultra or whatever they call it is something less than

01:04:08   your Mac pro in terms of expense, because it's going to be a doozy, particularly if Ram and SSDs

01:04:14   are still incredibly expensive. Next on our list, AirPods ultra or otherwise known as AirPods pro with

01:04:20   cameras to feed visual intelligence to Siri. And there was some news about this just earlier today.

01:04:24   In fact, Mark German writes the earbuds, which rely on cameras to see the space surrounding a user and

01:04:29   provide information on advanced testing. Cameras essentially act as eyes for the Siri digital

01:04:34   assistant and aren't designed to take photos or video. These components located in both the right

01:04:39   and left earbuds allow the device to capture visual information in low resolution. Other than longer

01:04:44   stems to accommodate the cameras, the product will resemble the AirPods pro three. The idea is to let

01:04:49   users ask questions about an item they may be looking at. For instance, they could be facing food

01:04:53   ingredients and ask what they should cook for dinner. The device could give the wearer a reminder based

01:04:57   on something the camera sees, or it might use external visuals to provide more advanced turn by turn

01:05:02   directions. The AI could cite specific landmark ahead when telling users when they should turn. The new

01:05:08   AirPods aren't designed to support hand gesture controls. They do have a small LED light in the

01:05:14   earbuds that will turn on when visual data is being fed into the cloud. Apple's planned, had planned for the

01:05:19   earbuds to go on sale as early as the first half of this year, but the launch was postponed after delays

01:05:23   to a revamped version of Siri. Everyone take a shot. While the hardware is nearly ready, concerns about

01:05:29   the AI elements could further hold back a launch if Apple isn't pleased with the quality of the visual

01:05:33   intelligence features. Surprise, surprise.

01:05:35   So this is a weird one. They're applying ultras to the AirPods with cameras in them, which again is a long

01:05:39   rumored product. Do you stick ultra on these? Well, it's surely differentiated from the AirPods Pro. This is

01:05:46   not just like the next logical revision of the AirPod Pro to stick cameras on them. I don't think that

01:05:51   follows. Like we've had AirPods Pro, AirPods Pro 2, 2.5, 3. Cameras were not really on anyone's list of

01:05:57   things that everyone else is doing on their earbuds that surely Apple will have to do, but this is

01:06:03   apparently their plan. So if they want to stick ultra on this one, I give them a pass because

01:06:07   I mean, they're not AirPods Pro and sticking a camera on something that didn't previously have

01:06:12   one, it sounds pretty ultra. Whether or not this will be a good product or work or ever shipped because

01:06:17   they can't get their Syriac together, we'll see. But I, you know, I could see, and obviously it's

01:06:21   probably going to be more expensive too because you're adding cameras to things that didn't have

01:06:24   them and there's not a lot of stuff on AirPods to begin with. So the addition of a camera is a

01:06:29   significant addition to the parts that you need to make an AirPod. But if you're trying to make a family

01:06:35   of products with ultra suffix, this is, and it's the same question I said before, if they don't call

01:06:39   these ultra, what do you call them? Yeah, I guess because they already have Pro. AirPods camera? Or it could

01:06:45   just be, well, it could be AirPods vision, but it was, or when they did the iPod photo, they just put

01:06:49   stuck photo right in the name. I mean, you could just make a, this is what we were just talking about

01:06:55   with regard to the MacBook Pro versus MacBook Pro Ultra, but it could just be the new AirPods Pro.

01:06:59   You know, they just get more Pro-y.

01:07:01   Yeah. I mean, they would, they would just make it four, I guess. Like when they're up to three and

01:07:04   they use the numbers in marketing, right? AirPods Pro 3, right?

01:07:07   Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't know. I mean, this, this is not a product I'm particularly excited about,

01:07:12   but we'll see. Maybe, maybe it'll change my mind. But honestly, I, I still am not good with the

01:07:19   AirPods Pro 3. I still use my 2s the vast majority of the time because I still find the 3 is

01:07:23   uncomfortable. Sorry. Even with the tips, you went through the whole different tip things?

01:07:26   Yeah. I went to the comply tips and they're, they're less uncomfortable, but they're still

01:07:30   uncomfortable really after a long time. And I still use the 2s the vast majority of the time.

01:07:35   Losing the ear lottery sucks.

01:07:37   Yeah, it does. But yeah, I think that, you know, we, we went through the pro-ification of their product

01:07:42   line over the years and now everything has a pro. And so if they wanted to go higher than that,

01:07:47   ultra is the word they tend to use. So yeah, I think that's very likely to be used here.

01:07:53   Well, just to briefly kind of echo what Marco said, I don't feel like I need cameras in my AirPods.

01:08:01   However, this is one of those things where I would be very unsurprised to see, oh, Apple came up with

01:08:08   something really clever and I must have this in my life. You know?

01:08:10   It's not the hardware though. It's like any other AI type thing. It's like you need the sensors there

01:08:15   to provide input, but it lives or dies entirely based on these much smarter thing living either

01:08:22   on your phone or in the cloud or both that does something with those. Because as this, this rumor

01:08:27   says, the cameras aren't going to be like good camera. I mean, it's an AirPod. What do you think

01:08:30   you can fit in there? It's not going to be, it's going to be a low resolution camera from which you,

01:08:35   the user will probably never see any output. You will never see what these cameras are seeing.

01:08:39   It's probably some just garbage thing, but it's input to what you hope is some kind of smart thing

01:08:45   that can say like, now, now we can see what's around you and maybe we can do useful stuff with

01:08:49   that. Like I said, directions, turn left at the next tree or whatever. Like when you're walking

01:08:54   around, like if the thing at the other end of this is smart and useful, it's not the cameras that are

01:08:59   doing it. It's the smart and useful thing. And it's just like, just, it just needs access to some

01:09:02   cameras. And these are already in your ears and they have a pretty good view depending on your

01:09:05   haircut. Um, so yeah, there are challenges here, but like, as the end of this says, uh, there are

01:09:11   concerns about the AI elements that could further hold back and watch if Apple isn't pleased with the

01:09:15   quality of visual intelligence features. Yeah. Uh, apparently they haven't been pleased with any,

01:09:19   any of the AI features because they haven't shipped them and they continue not to be pleased. And so I'm

01:09:23   not optimistic Casey that, uh, that Apple is going to bring you around on these are, I'm not even that

01:09:28   optimistic. They're going to ship anytime soon because so many things have been delayed.

01:09:32   And it's especially for something like this, where it's like the only purpose of these cameras is to

01:09:37   feed some smart thing. That's going to do stuff with them. It's not going to take pictures. It's

01:09:40   not going to take video. You're not going to see the output of these pictures. According to this

01:09:44   rumor, its whole purpose is to hook up to that smart thing. And if the smart thing's not smart enough,

01:09:49   don't ship this product weight. And it sounds like from this rumor, like the people who did the

01:09:53   hardware is twiddling their thumbs. Like, yeah, we, we delivered the hardware on the schedule that

01:09:56   you said you wanted it. And now it's just sitting there waiting for the software people

01:10:01   to get their act together for years. Yep. All right. Next on our list, iPad ultra or otherwise

01:10:08   known as the 20 inch foldable OLED iPad, which has been reportedly shelved. Yeah. We talked about this

01:10:13   on several shows ago. The rumors about people didn't know whether it was going to be Mac or whether it

01:10:17   was going to run Mac OS or iPad OS or whatever. And then there was a rumor a while ago that I think

01:10:20   we also reported on. Oh yeah. They've decided not to do this one. Basically this is like, imagine

01:10:25   a foldable phone, but massive and presumably running iPad OS. It's like an iPad that I, you know, you can

01:10:31   fold it out and the screen is really big and I guess you can make it in like an L shape and it could have

01:10:35   a, an onscreen keyboard to be kind of like a laptop. Like it was, this rumor was always just

01:10:39   going all over the place. But yeah, the rumor is that they've decided for now not to do this one,

01:10:45   but had they done it, it might've been called iPad ultra. And this is another one where I think

01:10:49   the ultra name fits. Cause it's like massively expensive iPad. That's way bigger. That can

01:10:54   bend in half, which is the thing iPads can't do. Uh, that one definitely. Well, they can Marco did it

01:10:59   once. Yeah. I did not do it. Excuse me. There was a butt in the household that did it, but it was not

01:11:05   Marco's, but that's correct. Uh, yeah. Yeah. All right. Apple watch ultra four. Uh, what do we think

01:11:10   about this? John has already got the name ultra and this rumor is the worst. Cause they're like,

01:11:13   maybe there's an eye. Presumably there will be an Apple watch ultra four, but like they're up to

01:11:18   three. They're going to make another one. They're probably not going to be redesigned,

01:11:21   but like maybe the rumors are so bad about like, maybe it will have newer updated health sensors.

01:11:26   Maybe we'll have a redesign case. Maybe it'll have touch ID on the side button and maybe it'll have

01:11:32   a new S 12 SOC, but none of these, none of these, these maybes about the Apple, like, like the fact

01:11:38   that there will be an Apple watch ultra four, I would put money on, but the fact that nobody can come up

01:11:44   with anything that they're willing to say, yeah, it'll probably have this feature. And it's just like,

01:11:47   what could they do for an Apple? They could do all these things, but it doesn't seem like any of them

01:11:51   are even rumored. It just seems like people are guessing based on like, well, if they do make

01:11:54   one with the four, it probably has to have this stuff. So this is only in here as a courtesy because

01:11:59   it's already got the name ultra. And it is as far as I know, the only product, obviously the,

01:12:04   the chip, but that's not a product. Like it's an ingredient in a product.

01:12:07   Apple watch ultra was out there with the ultra name out ahead of everybody else being all ultra

01:12:11   ultra and, uh, they keep making them and, uh, they've been getting better a little tiny bit,

01:12:15   but, uh, nothing dramatic.

01:12:17   And that was the first ultra, right? The Apple watch ultra?

01:12:20   No. So I double checked the, the M one ultra came out first.

01:12:24   Yeah. The chip.

01:12:25   Oh, sorry. I meant a product.

01:12:27   The chip is not a product. It's an ingredient.

01:12:28   Yeah. They were both, they were both the same year. They're both 2022, I believe. But yeah,

01:12:31   they were the, the app, the M one ultra beat the Apple watch ultra by like six months.

01:12:36   Yeah. I was thinking product, product, not chip, but that is a fair point. Nevertheless,

01:12:39   uh, John is still in the bargaining phase with regard to his, uh, Mac pro bargaining. I'm just,

01:12:46   I'm just, I'm just saying Mac ultra question mark. And John himself has put an upside down

01:12:52   smiley in our internal show notes. Because honestly, you know, what kind of Mac would you put a name?

01:13:01   I know we've been talking about the Mac book pro ultra, right? But like, what about a Mac,

01:13:05   which means desktop Mac, because the laptop ones are called Mac books of various kinds.

01:13:09   What would a Mac ultra be? Yeah. I think we know the answer to that question. Apple does not want

01:13:16   to make it, but I'm just saying Apple, if you're going to put ultra on all your products, I hope

01:13:20   someone in some pitch meeting says, Hey, what if we made a Mac ultra? And then someone, someone wearing

01:13:25   one of my shirts just glares at them. So his name was stampy. You loved him. That's a Simpsons

01:13:32   reference Casey. Nope. I actually got that one. Mac ultra. You can rename it someday. The case for

01:13:39   true Mac ultra successor. I don't know. Mac ultra. Just going to leave that out there. Let's move on.

01:13:44   I mean, I think, I think there, there is room for Mac ultra, but I don't think it's ever going to be

01:13:52   the form that you want it to be. Well, like I said, I'm not married to the form as I've made the pitch

01:13:57   in the past several episodes, more transistors, bigger, hotter, more heat dissipation in exchange

01:14:03   for more computation. That's, that's, there's a lot of flexibility within that framework. A lot.

01:14:08   Yeah. I think if such a thing were to exist, it would be another tier of the Mac studio in this,

01:14:16   in the similar way that like when we had the iMac pro, it was, you know, externally, it looked like

01:14:22   a 27 inch retina iMac, even though internally it was very different and, you know, had much higher

01:14:28   end components, totally different cooling, et cetera. But it was, it was like a pro form of a product line

01:14:35   they already had. I think if they're ever going to do a Mac ultra, uh, it would, it would be

01:14:41   basically a pro, a pro edition, like a higher, a higher end edition of the Mac studio or something

01:14:48   that looks very similar to the Mac studio, but they'd call it the Mac ultra. They wouldn't call

01:14:51   it the Mac studio. Right. And they probably wouldn't call it the Mac pro because that name is now

01:14:55   tarnished forever. Yeah. I mean, it seems like they're moving towards ultra as their high end name

01:14:59   and leaving kind of pro as the middle, kind of what they did with the, uh, actually with like the,

01:15:03   uh, super cores and the medium cores and stuff like that, you know, by all means feel, I have

01:15:08   quibbles about which particular products they put into these slots, but if they want to change their

01:15:11   naming and make ultra, the new top pro, the new middle, and then I guess a four level one, which

01:15:15   is like Neo air pro ultra. And then somewhere in there is the non suffix ones somewhere in between.

01:15:21   Like it's that anyway, I'm fine with them going through that, but yeah, whatever they make, if they were to

01:15:27   make a Mac, the whole idea is a Mac that can do more than the hot current highest end Mac studio, because it has

01:15:32   more transistors, uses more power, like a desktop Mac, right? It, you know, it's plugged into the wall. You

01:15:36   don't have to worry about battery life on a thing. You're only using 300 Watts. Now take some of those excess

01:15:43   Watts and turn them into computation because, Hey, we have this, you know, there's plenty of things

01:15:48   people want to use computation for even more so now than there has ever been. Please use that please.

01:15:54   You know, and if you can fit it in the same Mac studio case and call it the Mac ultra with using

01:15:59   the special metal or some fancy heat sink, fine. But if you have to make a bigger case, a taller

01:16:03   Mac studio, whatever, I'm not tied to the form factor. Again, the trash can was not, you know,

01:16:08   if they hadn't been able to scale that, it would have been great. Like I like the idea of a chimney

01:16:12   thing. There's lots of directions you can go, but like Mac ultra, like speaking of like me being like

01:16:18   in a morning period, I feel like there is a, I don't know, a latent period or something. There is,

01:16:22   there's necessarily going to be a multi-year gap before Apple even looks in the direction of

01:16:28   anything resembling a Mac ultra simply because they just finally got the, you know, the will to can

01:16:35   what was everyone was, it was a dead product, the Mac pro. So you got to wait many, many years

01:16:40   for them to revisit this. If they ever revisit it, it's not even clear that they ever revisit it,

01:16:45   but I do think the odds of them revisiting this in many years is increased. If they actually do

01:16:51   this rumored sort of ultra, uh, you know, what's essentially a marketing rollout of like, Hey,

01:16:57   we're, we're defining a new tier of product that was pioneered by the, uh, the Apple watch ultra,

01:17:02   which is our existing products with ultra on the end, which are more expensive, fancier,

01:17:06   better, more blah, blah, blah things. If they do that, it's inevitable that in five years,

01:17:10   someone is going to go up to the whiteboard and write Mac ultra question mark with an upside down

01:17:14   smiley face. Like that's gotta happen, but not, not now it's too soon.

01:17:18   Uh, I Mac ultra. I, I am not in the market for this, but I love this idea. Uh, reading from Mac world,

01:17:25   uh, Roman Loyola writes of all the desktop Macs, the iMac is the most likely candidate for an ultra

01:17:30   version. Would it be the fastest, most powerful Mac available? No, but Apple isn't necessarily

01:17:35   defining ultra that way. Ultra applies to the product in a particular line that goes above

01:17:38   and beyond a typical feature set in some way, like an iPhone that folds or a Mac book with

01:17:43   no led touchscreen and iMac ultra could have a six K 32 inch display and a pro or max chip to set it apart

01:17:48   from the standard model. I don't think they would sell any of these. And I still think they would do

01:17:52   it to the issue to do it because it would be awesome. So if it's not time to look at the Mac

01:17:55   ultra because it's too soon, I think it's about time to look at the iMac. It's been a long time

01:18:00   since the iMac pro. And, uh, you know, again, Roman putting his stake in the ground of what he thinks

01:18:04   ultra should mean. And I would question again, that just because you, your definition makes sense

01:18:09   doesn't mean Apple will do it. In fact, it may be the opposite. The more sense it makes less likely

01:18:12   Apple is to do it. But anyway, that is a valid definition of ultra based on history and logic to say,

01:18:18   we're not, you know, the, the, whatever ultra is not the best, whatever Apple sells. It's just the

01:18:23   best, whatever within that line. So the iMac ultra would be a bigger, more powerful iMac that has a

01:18:30   bigger screen and a faster CPU and dissipates more heat and blah, blah, blah, blah. We've already done

01:18:35   this. It was called the iMac pro. It was great. It was incredible. Yeah. And Apple decided a long time

01:18:40   ago. Now they're not interested in pursuing that, but I feel like the time enough time has passed for them

01:18:45   to at least consider, Hey, this ultra thing is going great. If it turns out that essentially

01:18:50   we're able to drive wealthy people up market and get more money from them, like that, but this boils

01:18:54   down to from a products perspective is like, yes, we're making cooler, better products. And I'm not

01:18:58   setting that aside because I like those products, but also as you go higher end, isn't it nice that

01:19:03   you get nicer margins to, you know, like you get, you get much lower volume, but you do get higher

01:19:07   margins. So like, that's the, that's the play here. Like all for all their product lines, they want to

01:19:11   have a good spread. They don't, you know, they want to go down low with the Neo's and make sure

01:19:14   they're selling as much volume as they possibly can. And they'll also go up high to some degree

01:19:19   to try to get, to see how much money there is to extract from the market. Right. They've always

01:19:23   done that. So, yeah, I, again, I don't, I don't see because desktop maps are so our max are so

01:19:27   unpopular, relatively speaking, this doesn't seem likely. Uh, I know there are people who would love

01:19:33   this product. Uh, but I don't know if there's enough of them for them to develop it, especially

01:19:37   since the only product in the iMac line currently is the iMac. And it is extremely unfriendly to

01:19:44   ultraing in its current form, which is so thin. You can't even put an ethernet port on it. Right.

01:19:49   So I, you know, it, unlike was the iMac pro had the advantage. They could take the existing case and

01:19:55   make it a darker color and stick better internals in it. And it was done. You can't do that with the,

01:20:00   uh, with the current iMac case, they would have to make a new case. And then that basically kills

01:20:03   the project. Cause you're like, no, it's, you know, or a 32 inch screen is like you've just

01:20:07   killed the project. Cause we're not making a separate case, separate, bigger case with better

01:20:11   cooling just for this product. That's no one's going to buy. That's not even going to be the

01:20:14   fastest Mac. Cause the Mac studio will still be faster. So sorry, Roman, I don't think this is

01:20:19   going to happen, but I think it is about time for Apple to consider this before deciding that they

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01:22:19   Let's do some Ask ATP. And Pat Murphy writes, I got a new laptop, an M5 Pro, 4TB SSD. I usually start a

01:22:29   new time machine backup with a new machine. Do you have an opinion on how big of a time machine drive

01:22:34   to get? I used to get a time machine drive 2X or 4X, the size of the drive it is backing up, but the

01:22:39   current costs are making me pause. The price of a 4TB external SSD micro center is about $1,100 for the love

01:22:46   God. Just three years ago, that drive was 200 bucks. Yeah, I would generally say get at least

01:22:53   as big, if not 2X, the size of your drive. But in this case, I would do one of two things. I would

01:22:58   either get a 4TB drive and no bigger SSD, that is, or just get a spinning disc. It's fine. For a time

01:23:06   machine, it's fine.

01:23:07   Not really that fine. I wouldn't recommend that. But here's been my philosophy for time

01:23:11   machine backup drives. It's always been my philosophy, and it's just served me well for

01:23:14   multiple reasons, one of which is sad. Get a time machine drive that's the same size as a driver

01:23:20   backing up. And I know you're thinking, that's not going to work. What about, like, because there's

01:23:24   overhead for the backups themselves and everything, and I want to have multiple versions, multiple

01:23:28   backups, not just one backup, yada yada. But here's the thing. First of all, you shouldn't

01:23:32   actually be filling the drive you're backing up to, like, the brim. It should have less,

01:23:38   your 4TB drive should have less than 4TB in it. Like, not, you know, a reasonable amount

01:23:44   less. Because macOS flips out when there's no free disk space, okay? Bad things happen.

01:23:49   Do not fill it as much as you possibly can. Which means that you're not backing up 4TB of

01:23:54   data. And also, time machine doesn't back up every file that's on that drive. It skips

01:23:58   over stuff. You know, like the read-only system volume and crap like that. I forget what it

01:24:01   skips over these days. I don't know if it's doing the whole system volume or not, but like,

01:24:05   but it's not getting everything. So, my point is that your 4TB backup drive should handily hold

01:24:11   a complete backup of the data that's actually on your 4TB disk that you're backing up, plus

01:24:18   a couple days, weeks, months of churn, depending on how often you change files. And also, my practice

01:24:25   has been to get the biggest drive that I can afford as my main drive, which means that I can

01:24:30   probably barely afford to get a drive that's the same size. The reason you don't get 2X or 4X the

01:24:35   size is like, wouldn't that be great? I could have years and years of backups because I've got my first

01:24:39   backup and then just all these iterative diffs for the subsequent backups. I could have huge backup

01:24:43   history. The reason you don't do a 2X or 4X is because time machine will corrupt itself long before you

01:24:49   were able to fill a 4X the size drive thing. Because time machine is reliable for spans of a year or two,

01:24:57   but eventually it will say, oh no, your time machine backup, like it's corrupt in some way,

01:25:03   there's no real error, your only recourse is to erase the drive and start over. That happens to me

01:25:08   every few years. So, I think before you're able to fill certainly a 4X size drive of the one you're

01:25:15   backing up, time machine will be corrupted. As for spinning disks, these days, especially with APFS on

01:25:20   the spinning disk, it's just too slow. Setting aside the noise and everything, it's just brutally slow

01:25:26   because APFS is not optimized for spinning disks in any way whatsoever. And time machine does lots of

01:25:33   little IOs and it's just, I do not recommend it. Where I know it's cheaper to get the storage,

01:25:38   use that storage to hold your massive video files. Backing up, you know, 50 gig Blu-ray rips that are in

01:25:45   single MKV files, great for spinning disks. Backing up the tiny little files that make up a time machine

01:25:51   backup of your active main system drive, not a good use of this. So, my recommendation, get a drive

01:25:58   that's the same size as the one you're backing up or maybe a little bit bigger. Getting something even

01:26:03   2X is big is probably too aspirational with respect to the historic reliability of time machine.

01:26:08   Yeah, I would also say definitely get the one that is the matching size. That's how I've operated my

01:26:16   time machine disks for over a decade and it's been totally fine. I've never had a problem with it.

01:26:22   And as for spinning disk versus SSD, man, those prices hurt. I don't, I don't, I don't feel for

01:26:33   the choice you have to make on this. Go back in time and buy the SSD when it was 200 bucks.

01:26:37   Yeah, like, like John is right that spinning disks are really slow by today's standards. That being said,

01:26:43   time machine is one place where as long as you could tolerate the, the, the noise, you know,

01:26:51   potential of where it is. That's a, that's a place where I would say it doesn't matter that much for

01:26:57   the speed. Exactly. But it, but it does though, because you think it doesn't matter because you're

01:27:01   like, I don't care how long the backup takes. I'm not waiting on it or anything. Here's the problem.

01:27:04   It will take so long that if you tell it like it's scheduled to like backup every hour, forget about

01:27:10   that. A single backup is going to take many hours and you will get to the point where a single backup

01:27:14   takes more than 12 or 24 hours. So now you're not getting good backups because, oh, I modified that file

01:27:20   an hour ago. Let me get it from time machine. Sorry. It's still running the backup that it

01:27:24   started at noon yesterday because this, and I know this room because I used, come on. I, I'm telling

01:27:29   you, I used to have spinning disks inside, directly attached inside my Mac pro that I was using as my

01:27:34   time machine volumes. That's how I know this is the case. It's so bad with APFS and time machine

01:27:40   on spinning disks, like that bad where I'm backing up a four terabyte SSD to like whatever it was,

01:27:46   an eight terabyte spinning disk. It was just brutally slow such that, first of all, it was

01:27:51   never not doing a time machine backup, which was bad, right? Because it's just, and it's not like

01:27:55   it's swamping my main drive with IO because it's so stupid slow, but it's just, it's always doing it.

01:27:59   And the, the interval of my backups, like how, how many different versions of this file that I've been

01:28:04   working on for the past two days, can I get out of the backup massively spaced out because it just took

01:28:09   so darn long. It is the close to the worst case scenario for spinning disks. Like I said,

01:28:13   spinning disks are great. Use them to store giant media files. Don't use them for time machine if you

01:28:18   can possibly help it. Now it could also be that I am stressing these drives more. Again, I will say

01:28:24   the, uh, the two underscore separated words that everyone knows node underscore modules. How many

01:28:31   files can you create, create how quickly and how quickly can they churn and change over the course of

01:28:34   doing development of a week of work? Node underscore modules directory will really abuse your time

01:28:41   machine backups. It's easy to end up creating and modifying and deleting literally millions of files

01:28:47   on a daily basis that will brutalize your time machine drive. If you limit yourself to excluding

01:28:52   certain drives or folders or whatever, maybe you can help, but you know, I'm still saying that like,

01:28:58   it's, I know the cost feels bad, but, uh, I don't know. Try, try for yourself again. Maybe I'm a

01:29:03   pathological case, but I had, I've had many years experience in this 2019 Mac pro backing up to time

01:29:08   machine and a spinning disk and I do not recommend it. That's just because it's a piece of crap Intel

01:29:12   computer. That's why it was a fast internal bus. It was fast, a good, fast, uh, drive 7,200 RPM,

01:29:18   high quality, you know, it's just spinning disks plus tiny files plus APFS equals sadness.

01:29:23   Mm-hmm. Thanks to our sponsors this episode, factor and delete me. And thanks to our members

01:29:29   who support us directly. You can join us at ATP.FM slash join. One of the many perks of membership is

01:29:36   ATP overtime, our weekly bonus topic. This week we're going to be talking about Adobe's, um, let's say

01:29:43   they have recently forgotten to make good software UIs, especially. Um, so we're going to be talking

01:29:49   about that over time. You can join to listen to at ATP.FM slash join. Thank you everybody. And we'll

01:29:54   talk to you next week.

01:29:56   Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental.

01:30:05   Oh, it was accidental.

01:30:09   John didn't do any research. Margo and Casey wouldn't let him. Cause it was accidental.

01:30:16   Accidental.

01:30:17   It was accidental.

01:30:18   Accidental.

01:30:19   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

01:30:24   And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:30:34   So that's Casey Liss. M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T. Marco Arman. S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A. It's accidental.

01:30:47   Accidental. They didn't mean to. Accidental. Accidental. Tech podcast. So long.

01:30:59   Marco, you are in the office in your home. Did you walk into the office or did you get,

01:31:05   did you roll in your wheelchair into the office?

01:31:08   He sauntered in.

01:31:09   So I've mentioned in past shows that I was training to do a very long walk called the Great Saunter.

01:31:18   This is a once a year walk organized by the group called Shore Walkers around the perimeter of Manhattan.

01:31:24   It is one day. You walk about 32 to 33 miles around the perimeter all, you know, from like 7 in the morning until, you know, 7 to 9 ish PM, depending on how quickly you walk it.

01:31:38   This is, I've never done any kind of like extreme, if you could call it that, extreme athletic event before any, really any athletic event longer than a 5K run.

01:31:50   I've never done, you know, anything bigger than that.

01:31:52   This was, you know, a pretty big effort for me and the group I was with.

01:31:58   And I'm really, I'm really proud of all of us for doing it.

01:32:02   Here's the recap. So first of all, if we can go on a brief aside, just for a minute, bikes and pedestrians should never share the same paths.

01:32:12   I know this is going to annoy all the bikists out there, but if you can just...

01:32:17   They're going to be so mad at us.

01:32:19   I know, but I think I have an angle that they will appreciate.

01:32:22   Cars can't coexist with bikes gracefully because of the inherent differences in their size, their speed, their physical needs.

01:32:31   Well, neither can pedestrians.

01:32:33   Now, it's not as bad as it is with cars because drivers of cars often kill cyclists.

01:32:38   And I don't think it's super common for cyclists to kill pedestrians.

01:32:41   I'm sure it has happened, but it's probably not very common.

01:32:44   Whereas I know that cars pose a much greater danger to cyclists.

01:32:48   So I know that.

01:32:48   I'm not comparing the level of danger.

01:32:51   But between cyclists and pedestrians, these two modes of transportation do not share the same path well.

01:32:59   I've been training for this walk for about, you know, seven or eight months, something like that.

01:33:02   I have had cyclists scream at me, threaten me, come within inches of hitting me at very high speeds, intentionally at least once.

01:33:14   All while I was in either a shared lane or on the pedestrian side of a split lane.

01:33:22   So my view of cyclists, having now done a lot of long walks on shared paths, is now, I think, similar to the view that cyclists have of car drivers.

01:33:31   Not every cyclist is a problem, just like not every car driver is a problem to cyclists.

01:33:37   But there's enough bad cyclists that they pose a menace to pedestrians when they're in shared paths.

01:33:45   They are entitled, reckless, and inconsiderate of pedestrians.

01:33:50   And they have no concern for pedestrian safety or the fact that we tend to have the right of way.

01:33:56   Again, this is not all cyclists, but there's enough that are like that, that it's a problem.

01:34:00   Interestingly, when you posted your first Instagram picture about this, and it showed the big, like, crowd of people walking, and then to the right, there were, like, two cyclists.

01:34:09   I think I commented to my wife, I'm like, boy, I bet these cyclists love this day of the year when their bike path is invaded by a gigantic crowd of people walking along it.

01:34:18   But it's not because there's a dividing line.

01:34:20   But, look, I want bikes out of my walking paths just as much as they want me out of their bike lanes.

01:34:28   But there's oftentimes a shared path, especially in a city like New York.

01:34:31   Bikes and pedestrians do not coexist well on an eight or ten foot wide path.

01:34:38   And it is best for everyone's safety and happiness for motor vehicles, bikes, and pedestrians to each have dedicated spaces that are not shared with the others.

01:34:50   And sorry to all the good cyclists out there, but the bad ones of you are a menace to pedestrians.

01:34:58   Again, not to the same degree of life-threatening that cars are to you, but definitely physically threatening to a point where, I hate to say it,

01:35:08   because I never cared about cyclists before, but I really don't like them now.

01:35:11   And I have very good reason not to.

01:35:13   And that's on the bad ones.

01:35:16   I know that.

01:35:17   But it is best for all of us to have our own spaces.

01:35:20   I am advocating for bikes, cars, and pedestrians to all have separate spaces wherever possible.

01:35:26   Anyway.

01:35:27   That's an amazing future, because currently cars have a place.

01:35:30   Sometimes pedestrians have a place.

01:35:34   And that's basically the state of the U.S.

01:35:37   Every once in a while, pedestrians and bikes have a shared space, which is what you're currently complaining about.

01:35:42   But the utopia of cars, pedestrians, and bicycles have each having their own separate place.

01:35:50   Boy, what a fantasy.

01:35:51   Not in this country in most places.

01:35:53   Yeah, it's tough in this country.

01:35:55   But other countries have done it.

01:35:57   It is possible to do.

01:35:58   Yeah.

01:35:58   No.

01:35:58   It's totally possible.

01:36:00   It's just we have consistently done everything we possibly can to prevent this from happening.

01:36:04   Yeah.

01:36:04   So anyway, consider this advocacy for everyone to have their own lanes.

01:36:08   Anyway.

01:36:09   All right.

01:36:09   So going into this, a few weeks back, I did two walks in consecutive weekends that were each about 22 miles.

01:36:19   The first one was in Manhattan, and it was on pavement, and it was fine.

01:36:23   And afterwards, I felt tired, but everything physically was fine.

01:36:28   The second one was upstate, and it was faster paced.

01:36:33   In the middle of that walk, I got significant pain in my left rear end, and it progressed as the walk went on into significant problems with my left ankle.

01:36:47   And this was a few weeks before the Great Saunter.

01:36:50   Was this on pavement to upstate?

01:36:52   No, it was on a gravel path.

01:36:54   So it was like a packed gravel, a beautiful – it's the Ashokan Rail Trail.

01:36:58   It's a beautiful path.

01:36:59   I've been to Ashokan.

01:37:01   Yeah.

01:37:01   And that path is like 20 feet wide, so it being shared with bikes is fine.

01:37:06   And there's also just not that many people or bikes on it.

01:37:09   It's a very wide, fairly sparsely populated path.

01:37:13   It's a great path, but I took it – it was on gravel.

01:37:16   I took it too fast.

01:37:17   And that combination really inflamed my left side, and especially for the following couple of weeks, my left ankle.

01:37:26   So I went to a physical therapist and got some advice and got some stretches and stuff like that.

01:37:33   But what it basically boiled down to is for me to get through the Great Saunter, I had to take extra care for my ankles, especially the left one.

01:37:43   And so what I did, based on everyone's advice and a couple of tests, I had these little like heel cups that you put in the shoe that are like little squishy wedges so that it cushions the heel.

01:37:54   The problem is it slopes the foot more forward as a result, which I knew going into it, this is going to make it more likely that the front of my toes might hit the front of my shoes and get blisters.

01:38:08   But blisters heal a lot faster than tendons.

01:38:11   And so I thought – and based on every – you know, everyone agreed, like all the physical therapists and the doctor, everybody agreed, like, okay, yeah, this is what you need to do to get through it.

01:38:19   Anyway, going into it, the ankle was hurting, but I made it through.

01:38:24   The ankle never got past medium hurting, but boy, did I get blisters.

01:38:30   And that really made the last 10 miles very challenging.

01:38:35   I'll get to the better news in a few minutes.

01:38:39   This has happier news, but I did have a really hard time getting through the last 10 miles.

01:38:47   It was just the hardest, like, mental pain endurance activity I've ever had to do because it was literally 10 miles of every step hurting very painfully because of significant blisters.

01:39:01   So I got through it, and there were a few nice things along the way that I wanted to mention.

01:39:09   First of all, the day before, I made a Saunter map app.

01:39:14   Well, rather, I should say Cloud Code made a Saunter map app based on about four prompts that I gave it.

01:39:20   The great Saunter published an online map and a GPX file, and you could use the web app.

01:39:28   But I'm like, you know, I would like to have this as a native iPhone app for lots of reasons.

01:39:32   I think I could make it work a little bit better, and also be able to do things like estimate my finish time because, you know, we were targeting, like, we want to finish by about 9 p.m.

01:39:40   Got to keep a certain pace throughout the day or, you know, manage the breaks, etc.

01:39:43   And I wanted to know things like, am I on track to meet that time?

01:39:48   And where is the next bathrooms and refreshments?

01:39:52   Like, how far, like, are we three miles from the next bathroom?

01:39:56   Like, maybe that will affect the choices I make, you know, things like that.

01:39:58   So I just had, I pointed Cloud Code at the web page that hosted their public map.

01:40:03   And I said, you know, basically, like, make an iPhone app that has this map in it that puts my location on the map wherever I am, estimates the distance to the end and how long that will take at the given pace.

01:40:14   And, you know, make a drop down to pick the pace and show the points of interest as little descriptions that pop up and tell me where, you know, the next bathroom and next refreshment stops are.

01:40:24   It just did it.

01:40:26   I refined it over the course of, like, three or four prompts over maybe a half hour.

01:40:30   I never looked at the code.

01:40:32   I never edited the code.

01:40:34   I submitted it to the App Store.

01:40:36   And this was the afternoon before the event.

01:40:40   So I'm like, all right, a first-time submission of an app, of a Vibe-coded app that requires location access.

01:40:49   What are the odds this is going to get approved in the next 18 hours?

01:40:54   Right.

01:40:55   You didn't need it to be approved, right?

01:40:57   You can just put it on your phone, right?

01:40:58   I could put it on my phone.

01:40:59   But, like, you know, TIFF wanted it on hers.

01:41:01   And I'm like, all right, well, I could plug your phone in and add it to my developer account.

01:41:03   But I'm like, let me see.

01:41:05   It would be a lot easier, especially if anybody else asks if they can have it.

01:41:08   It would be a lot easier if I could just get it on the App Store.

01:41:11   So let me try.

01:41:12   And I submitted it.

01:41:16   And later that day, it was approved.

01:41:19   First try, I had to, like, make a privacy policy.

01:41:23   I had to answer all the questions about whether it's designed for kids and how much data it collects.

01:41:27   None.

01:41:27   No.

01:41:28   You know, like, the answer was very simple.

01:41:30   It was, this collects no data.

01:41:31   You know, this doesn't have anything in it.

01:41:33   As far as you know.

01:41:34   Yeah, as far as I know.

01:41:35   Fair.

01:41:36   But it was remarkable.

01:41:38   It was, and the app worked great the entire day.

01:41:42   And I'm happy.

01:41:44   And I emailed the Sontor organizers just to say, hey, I put this up in case you, you know, want to tell anybody, feel free.

01:41:50   If you want me to take it down, I'll take it down.

01:41:52   No problem.

01:41:52   You know, whatever you want.

01:41:53   And they were very happy.

01:41:54   But, you know, it was too late to actually tell anybody about it.

01:41:58   However, somehow, the app got nine installations.

01:42:03   Nice.

01:42:05   Which, for a one-day event that no one knew about the app, and it was only existing, like, you know, like 12 hours before the event started.

01:42:13   That's pretty good.

01:42:14   I'm pretty happy.

01:42:15   I mean, you're walking along with them.

01:42:17   You got nothing but time on your hands.

01:42:18   You just chat them up.

01:42:19   Say, hey, I'm using this app.

01:42:20   You should try it.

01:42:20   That's how I got one of the installations.

01:42:22   Yeah, they can install while they walk.

01:42:24   It's fine.

01:42:24   As long as they don't wander into the bike lane.

01:42:26   Oh, my God.

01:42:27   So, anyway.

01:42:29   So, that was a fun, like, five-coding story.

01:42:31   Here's an app that, like, you know, the day before.

01:42:34   I'm, like, on the train, on the way there.

01:42:36   This was never going to be worth me taking time to spend, you know, three or four days making this app.

01:42:43   Especially, and there were some parts of it, like, you know, the source is a GPX file, which is basically a series of points on the map and lines between them.

01:42:51   And it's, like, okay, well, I want you to tell me where I am along that map.

01:42:55   But, like, what if I'm not on one of the lines?

01:42:57   Or what if I'm between two points?

01:42:59   There's a certain amount of math you have to do to figure out, like, okay, well, what is the point on the route closest to where the person is actually standing?

01:43:09   And I know I could look up how to do that math.

01:43:12   We're not talking about, like, really difficult calculus here.

01:43:15   Like, that's, you know, we're talking about, like, trigonometry and stuff.

01:43:17   It's not that complicated.

01:43:18   But I didn't have to.

01:43:20   And if I was making this map myself, I would have had, I would have spent three days on it at least.

01:43:26   And so it would never have, not only would it not have gotten done on time, but it's also something I shouldn't have spent three days doing.

01:43:32   You know, it just wouldn't have been a good use of my time.

01:43:36   And I didn't have to.

01:43:38   I just submitted it.

01:43:39   And, you know, Claude wrote it.

01:43:40   I tweaked a couple of things.

01:43:42   It took me longer to make screenshots than it did to make the app.

01:43:46   I even made an icon.

01:43:47   I didn't ask you this before, and I'm kind of afraid of the answer, but who made the icon?

01:43:51   Oh, I made the icon.

01:43:52   It's rough.

01:43:53   Oh, I was afraid that was the answer because it looks not great.

01:43:57   The icon is two SF symbols spaced out.

01:44:00   Ask Claude to make it next time, please.

01:44:02   It's, the icon's bad.

01:44:05   But again, like, I'm like, that icon took me like a half hour.

01:44:09   And I'm like, this is not a good use of my time.

01:44:11   I was going to say, you didn't want to spend time with it.

01:44:13   But you spent more time putting two SF symbols on an opaque background in some arrangement.

01:44:17   Just, man.

01:44:19   It's, yeah, it's a rough icon.

01:44:21   And even, but even like, you know, stuff like the screenshots.

01:44:23   You know, of course, an iTunes can, I hardly ever do screenshots.

01:44:27   I know there's tools, you know, to automate things, you know, fast lane or whatever.

01:44:32   Like, I'm sure there's a million things, but like, I don't use those things for my own BS.

01:44:36   And so, I, but I hate doing screenshots because inevitably, like, whatever device or simulator

01:44:43   I take the screenshots on, I go to upload them to iTunes Connect.

01:44:46   These are not the right resolution.

01:44:47   And it's, and it gives, these have to be this, this, this, this, this resolution.

01:44:51   Now, it doesn't tell you in iTunes Connect, well, what devices are those?

01:44:56   So, I was in a rush.

01:44:58   So, you know what I did?

01:44:59   I took a screenshot of that error message and I pasted it into Gemini.

01:45:03   And I said, what devices are these?

01:45:05   And it told me, oh, this is, what you want to do is use the iPhone 13 Pro simulator or whatever

01:45:10   it was.

01:45:10   I'm like, perfect.

01:45:11   Like, it saved me some time.

01:45:12   I didn't.

01:45:13   I was going to say, why do you need to know what device it is?

01:45:15   But it's because you're actually taking screenshots on the device in the simulator.

01:45:18   Yeah, like, I'm taking screenshots in, using the simulator, I'm taking screenshots because

01:45:21   with the simulator, I was able to simulate my location.

01:45:23   So, I was using the simulator to take screenshots, but then iTunes Connect or App Store Connect

01:45:27   is like, no, these are the wrong resolution for the, you know, the 6.5 inch screen size

01:45:31   or whatever.

01:45:32   Well, what does, what device is that?

01:45:34   As far as I can tell, though, in App Store Connect, they're not asking you to upload

01:45:38   screenshots.

01:45:39   They're asking you to upload images.

01:45:40   I think you can upload basically, I see a lot of variety in like what people upload.

01:45:45   Oh, that's true.

01:45:46   Like, yes.

01:45:46   But you can do just a picture of a smiley face and the text that says, please give me

01:45:50   money.

01:45:50   Like, they don't, whatever.

01:45:51   As long as it's the right resolution, I think it will go through.

01:45:53   That is true.

01:45:54   And that's why people will do things like, you know, zoom out and show like the frames

01:45:58   of the device and make big marketing messages that span across the screenshot grid.

01:46:02   And like, it's this whole thing.

01:46:03   Anyway, I got all that stuff done.

01:46:06   It was great.

01:46:07   I think it was a really fun experiment for me of like, if I like literally don't have time

01:46:13   to look at the code or it's so not worth doing.

01:46:16   Could I make an app that is minimally useful and functional?

01:46:19   And the answer is for a simple test like this.

01:46:22   Yes.

01:46:22   Obviously, it's not going to work for all app types, but I was very pleased that it worked

01:46:26   for this one.

01:46:26   And it did exactly what I wanted it to do.

01:46:29   It was very helpful while we were actually on the saunter.

01:46:31   It worked perfectly.

01:46:33   I was very happy to have it.

01:46:34   And it helped eight other people, or at least eight other people tried it.

01:46:37   I don't know if it helped them, but they at least downloaded it.

01:46:40   Another fun thing to mention at the beginning.

01:46:44   So I had mentioned on this show months ago, one of the reasons that I wanted to do the Great

01:46:53   saunter and one of the things that drove us choosing to do it was when we lost our dog

01:46:59   hops last summer, I wanted to kind of honor him by having like a big walk because I was

01:47:07   the dog walker.

01:47:08   We took a lot of walks together.

01:47:09   I walked thousands of miles with hops.

01:47:11   And so kind of honoring him by doing this giant walk.

01:47:16   At the beginning of the saunter, when everybody was like, you know, picking up like their, you

01:47:20   know, hats and stuff like that and maps and everything like where everyone gathers at the

01:47:23   beginning, a fan of the show just came up to me and said, hey, man, let's do it for hops.

01:47:28   And, you know, a little fist bump.

01:47:30   And I thought that was the most kind, awesome, touching thing.

01:47:34   And I, to you out there, I'm sorry, I didn't ask your name.

01:47:39   I didn't say, I was like, I was kind of just so blown away by it.

01:47:44   Also, it was seven in the morning and I was about to embark on this ridiculous thing.

01:47:50   So my mind was, was quite elsewhere.

01:47:52   But that really meant a lot to me.

01:47:54   And so, so thank you for doing that.

01:47:57   That was really awesome.

01:47:58   And, and the people I was with, I told them about it and they were, they were also like,

01:48:02   wow, that's really cool.

01:48:03   You should have put a picture of hops into the app.

01:48:05   He could have even been the app icon.

01:48:06   Yeah.

01:48:07   Well, that would have taken a lot longer, especially a liquid glass version, you know,

01:48:11   adapting your dog to liquid glass is not that easy.

01:48:13   Anyway, so thank you to that fan.

01:48:16   That was, that was really cool.

01:48:17   Sorry, I was weird.

01:48:18   I was very, very blown away and, and a little bit tired and distracted.

01:48:23   Finally, for the technology side of things on, on the watches, the stats, it was 33.7 miles

01:48:32   total for, for our walk.

01:48:34   Uh, it took almost exactly 14 hours, 74,000 steps for the day.

01:48:39   Um, and Pedometer Plus Plus on the Apple Watch Ultra worked fantastically.

01:48:44   Um, the, uh, the battery life at the end, uh, on an Ultra 3 in low power mode, uh, was still

01:48:51   33%.

01:48:52   So that was still, that wasn't his expedition mode.

01:48:55   That was the watch in just regular low power mode.

01:48:58   So what that means is that the always on screen was turned off, basically.

01:49:01   Like that's what low power mode does mainly on the Apple Watch.

01:49:03   Um, so always on screen was off, but the GPS was full blast.

01:49:07   The heart rate was full blast, like all of that.

01:49:10   And I never paused the workout the whole day.

01:49:12   So it was running the entire 14 hour span.

01:49:14   And at the end it was 33%.

01:49:16   So that's pretty great.

01:49:17   Um, the Suunto watch that I have also did great.

01:49:20   Um, I believe it ended the day with somewhere in the forties.

01:49:24   I didn't quite, I remember the number, but it was somewhere in the 40%, uh, range.

01:49:28   Um, both watches did great and tech, all the tech prep I did was worth it.

01:49:33   It was all fantastic.

01:49:34   Like, you know, like Tiff was trying to install a pedometer on her watch, but she didn't actually

01:49:38   start until like that morning.

01:49:40   trying to get an Apple watch to do, to install new software when it's not on wifi, uh, is

01:49:47   challenging to say the least.

01:49:49   Um, so, uh, it was difficult to have all that tech, uh, work for other people who hadn't

01:49:54   like done it already.

01:49:55   But because I had done all these practice walks, I wasn't really trying anything for the first

01:50:00   time on this walk.

01:50:01   Um, it all, it all made it, um, very smooth running for me.

01:50:06   So I can strongly recommend pedometer plus plus for these amazing, you know, long hikes or even

01:50:11   short walks.

01:50:11   It's still great for that.

01:50:12   Um, I'm also very happy with the Suunto.

01:50:14   Uh, the race S is the one I have again.

01:50:17   Uh, it's the, it's the kind of their smaller one, but it was, even it had ultra level battery

01:50:21   life, even a little bit better than ultra level battery life.

01:50:23   So it was overall a success.

01:50:26   We made it.

01:50:28   I did it.

01:50:29   I'm proud.

01:50:29   It hurt like crazy at the end.

01:50:32   It was really hard, but we got through and I'm very happy about it.

01:50:35   Would you do it again?

01:50:37   I think so.

01:50:38   Um, if it was always going to be like that at the end, no, but I know from doing the 22

01:50:46   mile, good training walk that I had zero blisters during that one and it was fine.

01:50:51   So I know that I can walk 22 miles on a pavement with, you know, these shoes, these socks, this,

01:50:57   these pants.

01:50:58   Like I know what, I know a way that it works that ended up, ended up working way better than

01:51:04   what I had with the heel wedge, uh, modifications.

01:51:07   So I think if I can just keep my ankle in good enough shape during training, I can avoid

01:51:12   that.

01:51:12   I can avoid needing those heel wedges and then have a much better outcome with the shoes.

01:51:16   So I think it is possible to do this better.

01:51:19   So next year I am certainly interested in trying.

01:51:22   I don't know.

01:51:22   I mean, the only downside with, with training for something like this is that walking is

01:51:27   just really slow.

01:51:28   It takes a very long time.

01:51:30   Like if you want to walk 22 miles in a day, that's going to be most of what you do that

01:51:34   day.

01:51:35   It's a very time consuming training process.

01:51:37   You're basically, it's like, you know, every Sunday you're taking a giant walk somewhere.

01:51:41   Um, so it is, it is a big commitment to train for it.

01:51:46   Now you can also just kind of YOLO it and not train at all.

01:51:48   Um, I don't recommend that path.

01:51:50   That's, that's not something I would suggest.

01:51:53   Um, but, uh, people do it.

01:51:54   You can YOLO it if you're a young person.

01:51:56   It's the magic of being young.

01:51:58   Yeah.

01:51:58   If you're young and if you don't mind things like maybe losing toenails afterwards, um,

01:52:02   go ahead.

01:52:03   Uh, but I, I wouldn't necessarily recommend that path.

01:52:06   The, the training, the training method, uh, tends to have significantly better outcomes,

01:52:11   but it does take longer.

01:52:12   I do get that.

01:52:12   Did you sit at all during the day?

01:52:15   Oh yeah.

01:52:16   We took breaks.

01:52:16   Like, I think if you, if you walk it straight at our pace, which our average pace was around,

01:52:22   like when we were moving, uh, was like, you know, 21 minutes per mile ish.

01:52:28   So, you know, if you don't stop, you can do it like, I don't know, an hour and a half faster

01:52:33   or something.

01:52:33   Uh, but, but we, you know, we, we stopped to like, you know, 10 minutes here and there,

01:52:38   even simple things like, you know, there are certain spans where there are not that many

01:52:41   bathrooms.

01:52:41   And so when you finally get to one, there's a big line.

01:52:43   Um, so like there was one where we had to wait in a bathroom line for 15 minutes.

01:52:47   So that was like, well, this is our break, I guess, you know, but, uh, but you know,

01:52:51   there was like a lunch break in the middle.

01:52:52   They do a nice job.

01:52:53   They have like snacks and stuff like along the route.

01:52:54   So it's really cool.

01:52:55   Um, but yeah, there, there is, there is some stopping, but it's not, you're stopping for

01:52:59   like five or 10 minutes at a time.

01:53:01   You're not stopping for long spans.

01:53:03   And roughly how many people completed this just from what you know?

01:53:06   Um, there were 3,500 registrants and about 2,200 finished.

01:53:13   So it was like about a 62% finish rate.

01:53:16   So that's, that's pretty good.

01:53:18   I think, um, for something with that, that ridiculous law, that's pretty good.

01:53:22   I put a link in the, uh, chat room to the Barkley Marathons Wikipedia page.

01:53:26   There's the documentary, an older documentary about that, that I think you can find on YouTube.

01:53:30   And there's a bunch of newer videos on YouTube about the newer iterations of that race.

01:53:34   Uh, maybe Marco will have a, uh, newfound appreciation for it.

01:53:37   If he ever checks it out, especially based on his upstate walking experience.

01:53:40   Yeah.

01:53:41   And to be clear, like there's a whole world of extreme athletic events.

01:53:47   Uh, I am not considering doing any of them.

01:53:51   Like that's, I don't really have any interest in doing, you know, marathons, ultra marathons,

01:53:58   Ironman things, like most of that stuff.

01:54:00   The reason why I was interested in this is because I really like walking.

01:54:07   I hate running.

01:54:08   Like I'll do it, but I hate it.

01:54:10   Every minute of a run, I can't wait for it to be over.

01:54:13   Biking is fine, uh, until you have to go up a hill.

01:54:17   Then I hate it.

01:54:18   You know, like there's, there's parts of most exercises that even if I could train myself

01:54:25   into the requirements to do them, I just don't like them.

01:54:29   Walking, I really like.

01:54:31   So that's one of the reasons this appealed to me so much.

01:54:34   Um, whereas the others, I just,

01:54:36   I don't care enough about the exercise to actually train for them enough to do it.

01:54:39   Good news.

01:54:40   You can walk the Barkley marathons.

01:54:41   Check out the, uh, the documentary.

01:54:43   I'll put the link to that in the chat room as well.

01:54:45   If you haven't seen it, it's enjoyable to watch even if you're just sitting on your couch.

01:54:48   But yeah, running is not required.

01:54:50   Okay.

01:54:51   I mean, it also, this looks like a trail thing.

01:54:52   I also, I also should clarify, like, I really like walking on pavement.

01:54:56   It's really nice.

01:54:56   I'm not a big hiker.

01:54:58   Like, I know hiking is just walking, uh, like, but up things and in the woods, but I

01:55:03   like walking on flat pavement a lot better than that.

01:55:06   Yeah.

01:55:06   Barkley marathons is not for you to be clear, Marco, but you should watch the documentary.

01:55:09   It is, uh, it is eyeopening.

01:55:11   Great.

01:55:12   Beep, beep, beep.