The Accidental Tech Podcast

41: Penny Wise, Pound Foolish


00:00:00   Helen's has circular sounds really nasal. Yeah. Welcome to the show. [TS]

00:00:07   We used a different version of the theme song last week. [TS]

00:00:12   And so our friend of the show Jonathan Mann That's I'm a double and who is the guy who wrote the initial theme song [TS]

00:00:19   and the slightly beloved bleeps and bloops version which is the one that John likes but nobody else does. [TS]

00:00:26   He took it upon himself to write a new version and we sprinkle that into the show or I should say Mark [TS]

00:00:30   and sprinkle that into the show. You did you hear. Apparently on the after dark for this week's back to work. [TS]

00:00:36   Merlin man our friend Marlon covered it briefly and said he was working on a full cover. [TS]

00:00:40   I'm very much looking forward to hearing that and. Because the brief part that he did sounded really good. [TS]

00:00:54   He was mad and sharp Hammarlund you can finish that up [TS]

00:00:56   and we will play it look out the course does nothing for you it this is like. You should work for free for exposure. [TS]

00:01:04   He does this now he does like style parodies like he did a lot of that with the voice of the male chimp. [TS]

00:01:15   But anyway if I'm real listening he's doing a style parody I would like to request an R.E.M. Style parity. [TS]

00:01:21   Use you can do like you know. Murmurs or fables or R.E.M. Right as we last. [TS]

00:01:29   Speaking of working for exposure always gets the Penny Arcade thing. But first we have some follow up. [TS]

00:01:35   Who want to talk about photo stream. Not it. John defaults to you. [TS]

00:01:40   All right I mean I will keep talking about photo stream. And I don't remember where this thing came from. But how you. [TS]

00:01:47   Dave who was last time I wanted him to pronounce because he can agree on how he wants people to pronounce his last name. [TS]

00:01:51   but it starts with the H. I think it's Charedi A with it I think it's safe. [TS]

00:01:55   He changes his mind I've heard him changes my anyway. [TS]

00:01:58   He posted a link to this Knowledge Base article that looks like it is recent has a recent date on it [TS]

00:02:03   and it looks like it's in response to confusion about photo stream. [TS]

00:02:08   And the relevant passage here is it provides information that previously was not provided by any other document that [TS]

00:02:15   it's not information about how photo stream works. [TS]

00:02:18   It's information about motivations and that I think is what a lot of people are missing [TS]

00:02:23   but you can explain all these rules and give out all these numbers and. [TS]

00:02:26   You know put all these facts about it but it's like but why. [TS]

00:02:29   Why what are you trying to do a photo stream So here's the important things. [TS]

00:02:32   The photos that you upload to my photo stream are stored [TS]

00:02:34   and I cried for thirty days to give your devices plenty of time to connect to i Cloud and download them. [TS]

00:02:40   That's the key piece of missing information that I think is going to a lot of confusion. [TS]

00:02:43   What's the point of what a shame. Is there to get your photo somewhere. [TS]

00:02:48   That's not an individual device for thirty days so all your other devices can pull the stuff down. [TS]

00:02:53   So all those limits in the numbers [TS]

00:02:55   and everything whatever don't matter because bottom line is it's both a just be a temporary holding pen for your stuff. [TS]

00:03:01   And it's most to stay there long enough for you to pull it down a notch on your other devices. [TS]

00:03:05   So that nixes photo stream. [TS]

00:03:07   As any sort of solution to any sort of ever pick like solution do to you know hold all my photos for me. [TS]

00:03:13   Doesn't matter what the limits are doesn't matter thing else bottom line is it's not going to be there for more than [TS]

00:03:17   thirty days the hope is just a holding area so I think that help that clarifies for me. [TS]

00:03:22   And as I see that from Apple because I was my impression of how it worked or reading all the other things [TS]

00:03:26   but seeing Apple explain. You know that simple sense explaining the motivation of the service. [TS]

00:03:31   Makes it clear that this is just not accidental and [TS]

00:03:33   when Taishan detail that soon it will hold all your photos over never the intention of this feature is just holding [TS]

00:03:38   been an Apple saying it themselves so I feel a little bit. I feel like I understand poetry and live a more now. [TS]

00:03:43   And now I know enough to not really pay attention to it no matter what they do with the limits. [TS]

00:03:48   And speaking of a photograph threat of like in the show it's here that have almost nothing to say about except for. [TS]

00:03:54   Here's another one of these things is called Space Monkey dot com. Tribble dubbed Space Monkey dot com. [TS]

00:03:58   And it looks like some kind of hardware device. Combined with a software service kind of like ever picks. [TS]

00:04:02   The Web site is it actually looks just like transporter actually. Like if you look at it. [TS]

00:04:08   If you read into a little bit. [TS]

00:04:10   It basically live [TS]

00:04:11   and we should disclose transporter is a frequent sponsor of our show so take this with a grain of salt however it [TS]

00:04:15   basically looks like transporter but with worse pricing. [TS]

00:04:19   Well [TS]

00:04:19   but they have a whole software component to where it's like it's both it's more like a media manager it's not just like [TS]

00:04:24   arbitrary file storage transporter is sort of like application agnostic it is a place for data. [TS]

00:04:30   And what data you put there is totally up to you. [TS]

00:04:32   And this looks like it's trying to be a hybrid of of transport ever backs but I looked at his website for a while [TS]

00:04:38   and is totally like a Web three point zero He kind of bootstrap built web site with animated stuff. [TS]

00:04:45   I could not for the life of me figure out any like actual technical information about this thing. [TS]

00:04:49   So yeah it's pretty light on the information and and pretty heavy on like the marketing titles and and graphics [TS]

00:04:56   but actual information is hard to come by this could be awesome could be terrible I don't know I just want to throw it [TS]

00:05:01   out there as yet another one of these things. That is trying to solve the problem of where we proly joke. [TS]

00:05:07   And on the final thing on this topic is we talked briefly about box yesterday [TS]

00:05:11   and how it was kind of like an enterprise focus version or Dropbox and either said [TS]

00:05:16   or strongly implied that box could be self hosted and I got an e-mail from a box [TS]

00:05:20   and going say the box is not self posted. [TS]

00:05:23   Also it's not called Box dot net anymore there was the old name that I said in the past though it's. [TS]

00:05:27   It's they dropped the dot net. [TS]

00:05:28   And it was not self hosted they host it for you and the difference is between this [TS]

00:05:32   and Dropbox according to this box employ are that they manage their own data centers they don't put stuff in S three so [TS]

00:05:38   there's little bit more. You know. Deterministic security about the data is not just put in another bucket. [TS]

00:05:44   Through another third party just one you know box stores the data. They have admin tools and report. [TS]

00:05:49   Again stuff that gives them more oversight on the data so if you need some sort of order to get reporting they can [TS]

00:05:54   provide that to you in stead of again relying on Amazon to do that. [TS]

00:05:57   And they're complying with a bunch of certifications and all the good stuff so. [TS]

00:06:01   Thanks to the Vox employee for the clarification and. [TS]

00:06:05   I think if you go to Boston other redirects But anyway go to Bucks dot com and you'll find. It seems like a box is. [TS]

00:06:11   I almost said but I thought not because that's how it out of it. [TS]

00:06:14   It's one of the services that like has like a billion users. Effectively and Geeks in our circles. [TS]

00:06:20   Almost never even considered existing almost never think about it because it's enzymes are used right it's not used by [TS]

00:06:26   mac nervous laptops of use like. You know in the enterprise a lot and a lot of P.C. [TS]

00:06:30   Users use it and it's as if it's like stumble upon when one stumble upon first became big or even more recently [TS]

00:06:37   when Pinterest. Started growing like crazy and the entire like tech geek world was basically ignoring it. [TS]

00:06:44   Because you know it was. It was so popular among women. And the tech world is so dominated by men the lease of the. [TS]

00:06:51   The online press part of it that it was like invisible to that world [TS]

00:06:55   and all of a sudden rose oh my God this is huge that I think that's how boxes like it's. [TS]

00:07:01   It's really massive and tons of people use it but we hardly ever see it. [TS]

00:07:05   And now that I'm using it every day now and it does it work similarly to Dropbox but with an enterprise bent. [TS]

00:07:11   Could they have picked a different name at least I mean if they're going to go from Boston to something else could they [TS]

00:07:15   have not made this very similar to drop box service name box. Yeah well. They've got to strengthen the enterprise. [TS]

00:07:24   You want to drop your sort your software used bucks. Wow. I thought the box predated Dropbox. [TS]

00:07:30   That is completely not fact checked but I thought that was the case. [TS]

00:07:34   It's been around for a while anyway it's not some new thing. Was there something called X. Tried before B.M.W. [TS]

00:07:39   That wasn't like a something kind of similar would give you like an X. A drive letter on your Windows P.C. [TS]

00:07:45   Case you know about this. Obviously John would. [TS]

00:07:47   I actually don't know about this but it sounds like something that Windows. [TS]

00:07:51   And the barrel is something that would be for the Windows platform. Yeah. Anyway. [TS]

00:07:58   The Chad is saying that box dot net because at the time it was called box that is two thousand [TS]

00:08:02   and five Dropbox two thousand and eight hour right. Obviously that matters a lot now. [TS]

00:08:09   So let's move on to our first aid results Casey how did you do. [TS]

00:08:15   Running Disk Utility as John assigned us in the last episode. Right so Captain paranoid. [TS]

00:08:20   Explain to us that we should be running Disk Utility on an hourly basis. And verifying. Everything under the sun. [TS]

00:08:27   No repair you've got to repair verify while the verify you got to repair my apologies your correction or to repair. [TS]

00:08:33   Everything under the sun and this is a real pain in the in the [TS]

00:08:35   but if you run on a laptop like I do because you've got to reboot and see recovery mode blah blah blah. [TS]

00:08:41   Well anyway so I as I've mentioned numerous times I have two fifteen inch higher as anti-glare macro pros with optical [TS]

00:08:47   drives there both day and night. Yeah exactly. That's that. [TS]

00:08:52   So actually you could say that does one's work once not but anyway. [TS]

00:08:55   The point is the point is I tried it on both of them. And one has an S.S.D. One does not. [TS]

00:09:02   And both of them had errors which were able to be fixed by Disk Utility So as much as I begrudge Captain paranoid for [TS]

00:09:10   making me worry about something that I didn't really feel like worrying about it ended up it was for the best so thank [TS]

00:09:14   you John. And by the way I do recommend running a marathon your boot drive is then you don't have to reboot like the. [TS]

00:09:19   The common case like of like oh. Everything is fine. [TS]

00:09:22   You will be able to just run verifying your boot if you start to walk away from the computer because it will totally [TS]

00:09:26   make your computer. Unusable. But just didn't do it when you go in for lunch or something and. [TS]

00:09:31   Most of the time when you come back you'll say oh verify checked and it's fine. [TS]

00:09:34   I only recommend repairing externals because if verify finds errors the very next thing you're going to do is repair [TS]

00:09:39   and it takes a similar amount of time to do both verify and repair. [TS]

00:09:42   So when you drive your only choices verify so do that on an external drives in my latest to repair because that's the. [TS]

00:09:47   That's authentic loser. If there are any errors and there's not any error is their equivalent. [TS]

00:09:53   Here's a question is there. [TS]

00:09:54   Is there much of a reason [TS]

00:09:55   or even is it possible to do this on a network time machines like we have it with this analogy set up where. [TS]

00:10:02   So knowledge ease using. [TS]

00:10:03   You know open source whatever component to host Time Machine shares which I think are stored as giant sparse images [TS]

00:10:10   or something like that. [TS]

00:10:11   Does any part of this apply to those Yeah I know any volume you can mount you can ANY age of us. [TS]

00:10:16   Plus all you can mount you can do this to our sparse images age of us. [TS]

00:10:19   Plus interview no underneath there is an active us plus volume. OK. [TS]

00:10:23   Like that's what amounts but it but it does its thing. All right then you about didn't see it in Disk Utility. [TS]

00:10:29   I don't believe [TS]

00:10:29   but you have to make it might like Time Machine does this sneaky they were all connected this analogy [TS]

00:10:34   and mount device you look at your desktop you can see it appear sometimes but it's not you know. [TS]

00:10:38   It makes it all go away when the backup just on you know. Sometimes in a seat at all and you can manually. Now. [TS]

00:10:42   You mainly mount the share. [TS]

00:10:44   Just like you know just today I learned about double click the farce bundle that yeah yeah yeah yeah. OK All right. [TS]

00:10:51   Moving right along the whole the whole of oh you know go away. MARTIN Oh yeah. I might have done my homework. [TS]

00:10:58   There's a surprise. Well John told me that not to run it while you're using it. And so I've been using it. [TS]

00:11:04   But you gotta run our internal drive you don't have more than one drive right. [TS]

00:11:08   All right well you didn't do your homework it's OK lots of other people did who filled up the survey should mention [TS]

00:11:12   that after the show actually thought it was during the show [TS]

00:11:14   but after the show last week I said you know what we should get some information on this. [TS]

00:11:18   I wonder how many people listen to last episode [TS]

00:11:20   and decided I'm going to run disutility L.-I desks just like they talked about on the show [TS]

00:11:25   and I wanted to how they did so I tweeted out. A link that said hey if you. [TS]

00:11:28   If you listen to the show last week and decide to run Disk Utility. [TS]

00:11:32   Tell me how it turned out as the two questions survey. [TS]

00:11:35   And I tweeted I think I did an app that net and and Marco put it in the show notes but it wasn't mentioned on the show. [TS]

00:11:41   And we got a lot of people replying. [TS]

00:11:43   Both before and after the server pine OK Alison your show [TS]

00:11:46   and I did stuff in about a couple of programs a couple tweets here one of them. One person said. This from D.C. Up. [TS]

00:11:52   Ran Disk Utility last week and it reported errors rebooted and repair was not possible. [TS]

00:11:56   So did verify and it reported it was OK. [TS]

00:11:59   Lots of things like where they'll run it [TS]

00:12:01   and it will say there's a problem they'll try to repair it will say Sorry couldn't repair and then it's OK or. [TS]

00:12:05   They'll be areas and they won't care thought there is no law [TS]

00:12:07   and that's not reassuring ten people handballs like your own no I said there was there is but now there's not a guess. [TS]

00:12:12   Everything's fine but instead you get this feeling of unease about. You know you know about that. [TS]

00:12:17   Here's another one random you tell him I started discus by R Y B. I'm not look after the first time in over a year. [TS]

00:12:23   It's fixed a free block count error which freed up seventy gigabytes crazy. [TS]

00:12:28   So that person got seven here by the disgrace back because it apparently is of us. Plus the lost track of the. [TS]

00:12:33   The free block out. Well. And you know it's like their trees right so if you. If you have a missing. [TS]

00:12:39   If the whole subquery goes missing in the metadata. [TS]

00:12:42   It could potentially be pointed to lots of information so he got seventy. [TS]

00:12:47   This is from Evie Q ran Disk Utility got an error. [TS]

00:12:51   Fall the instructions and then Disk Utility recovery from no errors again spooky. [TS]

00:12:56   And lots of reports of what happened to me with my Time Machine volume which is it had errors that I want to repair [TS]

00:13:03   and it said Sorry can't repair and then after that the disk was on mountable. [TS]

00:13:07   And that leads to something else I should talk about. [TS]

00:13:09   Last week verify disk is in theory a read only operation Repair Disk is going to make changes to your disk. [TS]

00:13:14   Those changes may be harmful to your disk but if it's got areas anyway you say well what areas [TS]

00:13:19   but seems to be working fine. [TS]

00:13:22   You can take that into account say look this thing has errors but before even try to repair. [TS]

00:13:27   Let me make sure that I have like this goes back to the multiple backup thing. You know. [TS]

00:13:31   Be aware that attempting to repair an error. [TS]

00:13:33   As I described in last week's show could make the disk even worse off than it was. It doesn't mean that it was. [TS]

00:13:38   You should really use that backup before [TS]

00:13:40   but it could make things worse so I always have multiple bags before you start messing with anything before you start [TS]

00:13:45   writing data to any disk make sure that is not your only backup. [TS]

00:13:50   And I don't know what else to do people like you found out what should do if that's your only backup and it has errors. [TS]

00:13:54   It's like well. Is your source this go OK because of your source because OK. [TS]

00:13:58   Make a second backup from now before you start screwing with the other one right don't. Don't just rush into it. [TS]

00:14:03   Or the one back up good. Anyway. [TS]

00:14:05   I would say that your story last week about how both your primary volume [TS]

00:14:09   and your Time Machine backup were both corrupted. [TS]

00:14:12   That is as big an ad is any for four super duper clones and cloud backup store. [TS]

00:14:20   Services like that that that just shows you right there like you know just one volume [TS]

00:14:24   and a Time Machine backup are not really enough. I mean like. [TS]

00:14:28   And the thing is if I had maybe if I checked more frequently. [TS]

00:14:31   One of them went bad first and then I would have been able to. [TS]

00:14:33   You know fix it from one to the other but like I maybe I waited too long didn't feel paranoid soon enough [TS]

00:14:39   and hadn't checked it was going to say we saw a really good tweet from grading nearly who said. [TS]

00:14:46   In the Army we had a saying pertaining to critical equipment to is one. [TS]

00:14:50   One is none so it goes for backups and I and I think that's absolutely true. [TS]

00:14:54   If you only have one backup that's effectively not really having a backup of at all especially if it's colocated with [TS]

00:14:59   wherever your computer lives. Most of the time. [TS]

00:15:02   Which is why the three of us are so excited for Crash plan or back please [TS]

00:15:07   or whatever your online cloud backup system of choices. [TS]

00:15:10   It's really nice to have that as well as something local [TS]

00:15:13   or many things local although I dread ever having to restore from are those that really is my like my last last last [TS]

00:15:18   resort. [TS]

00:15:19   Like yeah that's why I like to have multiple local backups [TS]

00:15:21   and I really want to the cloud backup to get house burns down [TS]

00:15:24   but if it doesn't burn down that I don't want to have to go. That are unless I'm like you know. [TS]

00:15:29   Away from my computer and I want to grab a file from back then it's kind of handed. [TS]

00:15:32   Use whatever the I was up is fear thing and grab stuff. Yeah club back of his like it's. [TS]

00:15:37   You can't really test it without just trying to pull a file off of it like. You can't really. [TS]

00:15:42   You don't have the same kind of reassurance that you do with like a super duper super duper clone you can just boot [TS]

00:15:47   from it. And just Seaver these OK boot from it once a month or something and just test it. [TS]

00:15:52   You can't really do that with claw back and you just got you know you can try to pull a file off it but it's kind of. [TS]

00:15:56   You know a process and if you ever do have to restore doing a full restore one you might be. [TS]

00:16:01   You know downloading a terabyte of data off the Internet which might take a while. [TS]

00:16:05   So it's you know it is always good to you know at the cloud backup really is your last resort. [TS]

00:16:10   That said though I think. Regular volume plus time machine. Plus back please. [TS]

00:16:15   I think it's a very good set up for most people like us you know. If you have extra hard line around. [TS]

00:16:20   Yet make a super duper clone also. [TS]

00:16:22   But regular plus Time Machine plus the back please I think is fine and or the other alternative is like I said. [TS]

00:16:28   Run Disk Utility more often. [TS]

00:16:30   So that you don't end up a situation they probably don't both go bad exactly the same time my one of them goes first [TS]

00:16:36   and if you're running it off enough. You'll get in a situation where one went bad but one is good and you can quickly. [TS]

00:16:41   You know do pout a second backup. And don't by the way if you have. [TS]

00:16:45   If you only have two things your computer and a time machine disk. And the time machine. [TS]

00:16:49   And the time machine just goes bad. [TS]

00:16:51   Don't erase the time machine desk [TS]

00:16:53   and then try to copy the backup to the soon as your racist time machine just now your data is in one place [TS]

00:16:57   and the somewhere you never ever ever want to be like it's. [TS]

00:17:00   You just don't ever be in that situation to place is bad enough. [TS]

00:17:04   If you have two places [TS]

00:17:05   and one is bad a bad back up is better than no backup do not arrays that disk just don't touch it put it aside. [TS]

00:17:10   Get a new disk. Back up to that you know. [TS]

00:17:14   This is why we want companies to take care of the stuff for us because this is way too much for a regular person to [TS]

00:17:18   handle anyone listening to this is like I don't want to think about apply agree I don't want to think about it either. [TS]

00:17:22   And I'd also don't think about bit rot in the fact that none of these things all this age of us. [TS]

00:17:28   Plus checks are just checking the meditator they're not checking the data the data could be totally hosed we have no [TS]

00:17:32   idea what state the data isn't. I don't think so the survey. The server that I sent out there. [TS]

00:17:43   Think maybe the sample or maybe slightly biased because it's a group of people who listen to a nerdy podcast [TS]

00:17:48   or who follow or nerdy person on Twitter. And maybe those people are more likely to do. [TS]

00:17:52   Complicated things with their disks that in turn could cause more errors or something. [TS]

00:17:57   The one thing the survey has going for it is. [TS]

00:18:01   People didn't know whether they were going to find errors or not before they ran Disk Utility. [TS]

00:18:05   Right so it's not like only the people who found area still does out the survey was. [TS]

00:18:09   If you listen to the episode and ran desk utility What did you find and. [TS]

00:18:13   None of those people OTA magine knew beforehand Well what they were going to find. So despite the sampling. [TS]

00:18:19   The self selection of the people who take the survey I'm hoping it's not like that only the people who found there is [TS]

00:18:25   filled out the survey. And the people who didn't find errors. Didn't bother to fill the survey. Because I guess. [TS]

00:18:30   I don't know. I mean. I don't know how statistically valid this is let's just say. But anyway. [TS]

00:18:36   You guys want to guess at the result I'll tell you that. [TS]

00:18:38   Seven at the time I pulled the the data from it seven hundred fifty eight people had responded to the survey. [TS]

00:18:43   Wow first. The first question was this is how smart if you listened up so forty X. and All tech podcasts. [TS]

00:18:49   Subsequently registered toadies first aid function on one or more H.S. [TS]

00:18:52   Plus alliances in compass all the discs I don't want to ask them individually or whatever. Did it find any errors. [TS]

00:18:57   So if you have five disk new find errors on one of them you would say yes this is just basically saying you ran Disk [TS]

00:19:02   Utility. On all your stuff. Did your stuff have any errors. [TS]

00:19:05   And I didn't ask them how many disk you have around evolves ergs I don't want this to be true that we are going to a [TS]

00:19:10   sponsor read to build suspense in the middle of this. [TS]

00:19:12   Oh and then the second question was if you found errors with the repair. [TS]

00:19:16   Function able to grab so I want you to to guess what you think you know. Did you find errors. [TS]

00:19:22   Percentage wise men you know the numbers why you have to guess [TS]

00:19:25   and then after the sponsor break I'll tell you the answer. For if you should guess. All right. [TS]

00:19:28   My guess is the percentage of respondents who had errors found was thirty percent. I would guess. Seventy percent. [TS]

00:19:41   Law which is aggressive. [TS]

00:19:43   But I'm hoping that your right Marco because then maybe John will stop whining about each of us plus never like The [TS]

00:19:49   Price is Right one dollar one dollar. Oh you want to read. [TS]

00:19:53   Are we doing prices right rules or closest when this is important to close as [TS]

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00:20:34   Every Paris custom a fit with anti-reflective anti-glare polycarbonate prescription lenses. [TS]

00:20:40   And every pair comes with a hard case including cloth. So you don't need to buy any overpriced accessories with them. [TS]

00:20:45   Buying glasses online sounds like it would be risky. [TS]

00:20:48   You know how would you know whether they would fit or whether to look good on you. [TS]

00:20:51   Well Warby has you covered and actually quite impressively if I may say so. [TS]

00:20:54   So first the reply has a really helpful tool that uses your computer's webcam. [TS]

00:20:59   To give you a preview of how the glasses will look on your face. [TS]

00:21:03   And they can even help you measure your eyes in your face in this little tool to get your fit exactly right [TS]

00:21:08   when you order. But the best part of this is their home try on program. [TS]

00:21:12   You can borrow to five pairs of glasses risk free. They will ship them to you for free. [TS]

00:21:17   You can try them on in the comfort of your own home for five days. [TS]

00:21:20   Then you send them back with a prepaid free return label. You don't pay anything this whole process. [TS]

00:21:25   And there's no obligation to buy. They also offer prescription and non-prescription polarized sunglasses. [TS]

00:21:32   I love pull are some of us personally. If you ever had non-polarized you really don't know what you're missing. [TS]

00:21:38   And this really you know ninety five dollars as the base cost is really a great price even for non-prescription [TS]

00:21:43   sunglasses that's really good for polars and losses. [TS]

00:21:45   So we did the spot a few months ago and I had to my wife if come in and because she'd ordered two pairs. [TS]

00:21:51   From them to talk about on the ad. [TS]

00:21:53   And I asked her for an update tonight see how she's like an M and she still uses them. [TS]

00:21:58   Almost every day and she still real like them she has one pair of sunglasses one pair prescription. [TS]

00:22:03   And she loves She's a hard case. The come with a really nice and high quality is so she'd love that too. [TS]

00:22:08   And since I went back to look inside I could actually use some sunglasses myself for driving with my current Paris kind [TS]

00:22:14   of falling apart. [TS]

00:22:15   Because I bought it from some shady shop in New Zealand for no money and I don't know if you know no brand name. [TS]

00:22:21   God knows what it is. But yeah so I'm looking for looking for these myself because they're really good. [TS]

00:22:28   So what's also great about worry Parker. Is that they believe in giving back to the world. [TS]

00:22:33   Almost a billion people worldwide lack access to glasses. And they can't affectively learn or work. [TS]

00:22:39   So for every pair of glasses that we Parker sells. [TS]

00:22:42   They give another pair to someone in need their nonprofits such as in spring. [TS]

00:22:46   This is a really great company really great message with really great people working behind it so go to war Parker dot [TS]

00:22:51   com. That's W A R B Y Parker dot com and check out their great selection of premium quality affordable I wear. [TS]

00:22:58   Browse around get yourself a home try on to risk free. And if you decide to order your own pair use coupon code A.T.P. [TS]

00:23:05   For free three day shipping. So thanks a lot to worry Parker for sponsoring the show. You know I told this story. [TS]

00:23:11   When we when they sponsored an episode twenty six and. When I did the free trial on thing. [TS]

00:23:18   I ordered like two or three pairs that I was pretty confident were my style [TS]

00:23:21   and then two pairs that I didn't think were me at all and it ended up that because I was able to try those. [TS]

00:23:28   I actually ended up going with one of the pairs of sunglasses. [TS]

00:23:31   That I didn't expect to like at all and I just thought the let me see what happens. [TS]

00:23:35   And I love the sunglasses and I have an inevitably I will break them because I'm an clots [TS]

00:23:40   and I always destroy my sunglasses. [TS]

00:23:42   But I will be devastated when I do because I really really do like you mention the case that they come [TS]

00:23:47   and that's where glasses. You know since I was like thirty grader. [TS]

00:23:53   This is the most impressive glasses case they only have my prescription sunglasses that I've ever seen in my life. [TS]

00:23:57   It is nice. Gigantic. And like it looks like you could run it over with a car and your glasses of be fine. [TS]

00:24:04   The little box of the should be with a glass that was impressive but the case. Was I was also impressed by that. [TS]

00:24:09   And it's nice on prescription sunglasses. The first time I feel fancy. All right. [TS]

00:24:17   So what were the results of your survey John. So marker you said thirty percent. [TS]

00:24:21   I said thirty percent and you said seventy percent. Now. [TS]

00:24:24   What do you think is reasonable for the job of the file system is basically to keep track of where your crap is and. [TS]

00:24:30   Markos number at thirty percent is that you're saying it's OK. [TS]

00:24:34   That on thirty percent of the max out there are so many are sampling is significant. [TS]

00:24:39   Are is representative of the mass of Nike is that it's OK for about thirty percent of the time for there to for each of [TS]

00:24:46   us plus group for there to be potentially did a strong areas in case you think seventy to try to be dramatic [TS]

00:24:51   but like that. I mean we all agree that seventy would be unreasonable. [TS]

00:24:56   That have seventy percent of the max out there had errors on there you know the age of us plus errors on the disc we [TS]

00:25:01   are not hardware problems they're just software problems like not keeping track of that would be on reason apply for [TS]

00:25:05   sure anything more than zero in theory is unreasonable [TS]

00:25:08   but now that you have to expect it wanted two percent are going to have problems some person kicked the plug out [TS]

00:25:12   or there were some crazy like there's always going to be a little bit of bugs or whatever [TS]

00:25:15   but I think once you start to get into double digit percentages. That's not like an aberration like. [TS]

00:25:21   There was a power outage in the middle of the thing and I didn't notice and it just built up or. [TS]

00:25:25   You know cosmic rays or whatever. [TS]

00:25:28   Yeah I would say like ten percent should be cause for concern because then that's I would say anything over. You know. [TS]

00:25:34   Double digit percentage like. [TS]

00:25:36   That's come to some kind of systemic issue like bugs in the software that are not just cosmic rays [TS]

00:25:42   or one off occurrences are our hardware related or maybe they could be are related but it seems like. [TS]

00:25:49   A lot so I don't know what I expected these numbers to be but I kind of felt like they were going to be like. [TS]

00:25:54   My guess would have been like fifteen eighteen percent that would have him I guess for. [TS]

00:25:59   Because like ten percent seem low to me. [TS]

00:26:02   But surely it's not on like more than maybe twenty percent because I know I find the errors [TS]

00:26:06   and I know if I go to someone's computer and they never understood tell you they find errors [TS]

00:26:09   but I figure again people who listen to spot gas. [TS]

00:26:11   Are probably nerds [TS]

00:26:12   and they know about Disk Utility I don't have to explain to anybody where it was like all these people found it [TS]

00:26:17   themselves and ran it and did all the stuff themselves so maybe they'd run it before or whatever. [TS]

00:26:22   But here the results the results were. You know. [TS]

00:26:25   Did you find any errors again this is across all the disks that you try and I didn't ask them how many. [TS]

00:26:29   Forty four point three percent found errors on their desks. [TS]

00:26:32   Oh methadone Marco Marco is closer but that is shockingly close to half that's really bad. And that. [TS]

00:26:38   That is much higher than I thought it would be I was thinking eighteen twenty percent. [TS]

00:26:42   Maybe twenty five forty four that's that's grim I think. [TS]

00:26:46   Second question was if the errors were found and was the repair function able to repair their. [TS]

00:26:53   So of the people who found errors eight people didn't attempt to repair [TS]

00:26:57   or didn't answer that question right I'm giving you percentages of like out of all the people who attempted to fix the [TS]

00:27:03   error what percentage of those people with this you tell you were not with a third party told I was any else. [TS]

00:27:08   How successful was this utility repairing there is care to guess what they put on it is there. [TS]

00:27:13   I would say probably seventy five percent. [TS]

00:27:17   Well see I think would be more than that I would think you'd be closer to ninety. Marco gets it again said. [TS]

00:27:23   Seventy three point one seven percent. So you basically have a one in four shot. [TS]

00:27:29   A little bit worse than a one in four shot Disk Utility being able to fix your errors. [TS]

00:27:34   I don't know how represent of exults are but they are worse than I expected because I would have expected it. [TS]

00:27:39   Areas to be on far fewer than forty four percent and I would expect would have expected disutility six [TS]

00:27:44   or eight to be like. It seems like to me I just expected that we six that I was our ninety five percent. [TS]

00:27:48   Something like that. Seventy two percent is not good. [TS]

00:27:51   So that shows those errors weren't just one tiny letter is easy to fix but every type of [TS]

00:27:55   or this utility confect Now some people reported to me that if you didn't a single user mode and you do F. A C. K. [TS]

00:28:00   Manually. We're just more or less the same thing as this can tell a dozen of the covers. [TS]

00:28:04   But I think we're using more you don't have any contention for that the catalog fall you're the only process running [TS]

00:28:08   and stuff [TS]

00:28:09   and some people are saying that it actually does repairs Disk Utility can't do I'm not sure how much truth there is to [TS]

00:28:13   that but that is one more tool in your toolkit. [TS]

00:28:16   If you get a disk this can to leave says it can repair you can reboot into single user mode if you're comfortable with [TS]

00:28:21   that. [TS]

00:28:21   And I feel like I should explain it because if you don't know what it is then you're not comfortable with it [TS]

00:28:27   and run have to seek a couple of options and have it attempt to repair you the lion king again. [TS]

00:28:32   If you're not comfortable this don't try to do it it's very easy to do the wrong thing from the command line in single [TS]

00:28:36   user mode. But if you're comfortable with it it's worth a try and that's pretty that's pretty bad and. [TS]

00:28:43   I don't want to encourage you to go on another fossils from rant but that I mean. Well. [TS]

00:28:49   The it's we've been this will mean we haven't beaten a source Johns beaten a source. But anyway. [TS]

00:28:54   You know what the file system is one job which is not screw up your data and. [TS]

00:28:58   It's of us plus it's just not cut the mustard apparently. [TS]

00:29:01   And that's not even your data forget who knows what state your data is this is just keeping track of where stuff is [TS]

00:29:07   that stuff the same as your data is the same as when you wrote it. Who the hell knows. [TS]

00:29:11   Age of us puzzles now doesn't care. All it saying is I put something on disk and I saw that you track of where it is. [TS]

00:29:17   And this file name has this data associated with it. [TS]

00:29:20   On another date is it called these heroes it could be just random garbage by now [TS]

00:29:23   but I didn't keep track of that bucket of random garbage that is a certain length. [TS]

00:29:27   And that's the job of the files as a keep track of the information about where the files are. [TS]

00:29:31   We wish that it would also say oh and by the way the date is the same as when you wrote it [TS]

00:29:35   but each of us plus there's nothing a totally silent. Just trust the hardware and says. [TS]

00:29:40   Yeah that's probably what you wrote. [TS]

00:29:41   If it is if it isn't nothing we can do about it now you have no way of knowing a lot of people have talked about the. [TS]

00:29:48   What is a call. There's some tool that I can never remember the name of that i've actually. [TS]

00:29:53   I think I bought it way back in the day. And I think I tried it once. [TS]

00:29:57   They will crawl your disk and put little checksums. Like in the direct age directory checksums of all the files. [TS]

00:30:02   And so in theory down the road. [TS]

00:30:04   You can then or recheck some them and compare it against the confines of the file at least then you'll know if OK well.. [TS]

00:30:10   At one point I made checksums all the files and directories and it's that X. [TS]

00:30:14   And now I'm running checksums and it says why. [TS]

00:30:16   So something must have changed I can tell you what it was and I can't fix it. And I can't even tell you if the state. [TS]

00:30:22   If you're just going around the checksums was in a known good state it was just merely the state it was [TS]

00:30:26   when I ran the original checksums but at least something [TS]

00:30:28   but it does have to crawl your whole disk it does have to read everything go by the data off your disk to make the [TS]

00:30:32   checksums. [TS]

00:30:34   The first time anyway and the second time are probably cross file dates [TS]

00:30:37   or something like that to be more efficient about it but this is. I don't really recommend this tool because it's. [TS]

00:30:43   It really beats up in your disks the first time you run it. [TS]

00:30:45   And it's really not the correct solution a correct solution is a file system that does is [TS]

00:30:49   when the data is on its way in and out. And we don't have that yet so we just you know. Cross our fingers and pray. [TS]

00:30:56   Well. So what you're recommending is FAT thirty two. For macro us. [TS]

00:31:01   Now recommending test I can I can remember men the episode of the debug Paga that was on recently where me [TS]

00:31:09   and several other people talked about file systems and Mavericks among other things [TS]

00:31:13   and part one of two was posted because we talked like three [TS]

00:31:15   and a half hours so it was really good I link them to show Note that [TS]

00:31:18   when those mins worth listening to my favorite thing about it was the two of the people there X. [TS]

00:31:23   Apple employees [TS]

00:31:24   and it's a lot better than just people who you know have seen Apple from afar talking about stuff on that show. [TS]

00:31:30   The rest of us could offer opinions on what we think Apple might or might not be like insider might [TS]

00:31:35   or might have been doing and have actual X. Apple people. [TS]

00:31:38   You know give dumbs up or thumbs down on whether that sounds reasonable [TS]

00:31:42   and I was that was exciting the two Apple people were who was around the Aslan and Danielle jacket. [TS]

00:31:48   I think I got the names right if I didn't mark a fix and post. Yeah that's right. [TS]

00:31:52   And then Guy English was like doing Reggie. You know those guys. Well was only one guy. Wow. Moving on. [TS]

00:32:03   So do you want to talk about X. Box one. Yeah I think we should I think it's important. John. Yeah. X. [TS]

00:32:10   Box One launched. [TS]

00:32:11   Very close to the Play Station four Play Station four was making a big deal [TS]

00:32:13   but they sold a million units north american twenty four hours X. [TS]

00:32:16   Box One launch and had its own little press release they said it sold more than one million consuls worldwide. [TS]

00:32:22   For hours. [TS]

00:32:23   It's not apples to apples comparison but the bottom line is I think both are more or less supply constrained on launch. [TS]

00:32:30   I think this is. I talked about it last week. [TS]

00:32:32   That just because the early adopters are rabid for a new console as I imagine they will be doesn't necessarily mean it [TS]

00:32:38   is console generation is going to do as well as the previous or the one before that. [TS]

00:32:41   But it definitely means that they're not. [TS]

00:32:44   It's not you know if they had both tanked on launch it would be a very very bad sign so they're not both hanging on [TS]

00:32:49   launch. So far so good for the new console generation they're selling out. [TS]

00:32:55   And this is a little bit more impressive the X. [TS]

00:32:57   Box One Jesus hundred dollars more than a Playstation three and people did not appear to be price sensitive [TS]

00:33:02   or the supply was not enough to reveal the price sensitivity of consumers because everyone who wanted a P.S. [TS]

00:33:07   or An online today. You know. Bought a mall and same thing with X. [TS]

00:33:11   Box one so we'll revisit this in a couple months to see how the consul's are doing but so far so good. [TS]

00:33:17   I do wonder how many of the buyers were scalpers. Because it was any new electronics launch the tie profile. [TS]

00:33:25   Which is pretty much every new game console. And every new i Phone and me the most new tablet and stuff. [TS]

00:33:31   There's always a pretty large contingent of scalpers who are just buying it to put it on e Bay [TS]

00:33:35   or to bring it to countries where it isn't available yet to charge a premium. So say so. Opening day. [TS]

00:33:41   Numbers [TS]

00:33:42   or eyeopening we can number you should always go into with some skepticism because some of it is going to be that [TS]

00:33:46   and for different products it's a different. Portion of it but it certainly always substantial. [TS]

00:33:53   So I think I'll be more interesting to see what happened then you know. Two months five months. You know. [TS]

00:33:59   Over the next year we'll see and I also still want to see what happens [TS]

00:34:03   when any of these consuls gets a really good hit game that schools have to the Consul because that. [TS]

00:34:09   That's really what makes the console market is is. You know must have killer games and. So far there's none. [TS]

00:34:15   On the new systems on and any of three of them. I'm not I'm not sure the X. Box one. [TS]

00:34:19   When I was thinking about him are not sure the X. Box One needs the killer app beyond X. Box Live. [TS]

00:34:23   Because it just gets good versions of all the multi format. Multi-platform games. [TS]

00:34:29   It's a killer app a sort of that's where your friends list is you're on X. Box Live you've been on X. [TS]

00:34:34   Box I was sixty you'll be an X. Box live with this. If a multi-platform title comes out. And you're not a P.C. Gamer. [TS]

00:34:40   You have a choice of can you get a majority of the P S four version X O X one version [TS]

00:34:44   and in the past generation a lot of people get got the three sixty version just because that's where their friends [TS]

00:34:48   where an X. Box Live. And sometimes I look a little better the P S four person and this generation X. [TS]

00:34:53   Box One version may look slightly worse than the P S four version ways that only gaming forum nerds care about most [TS]

00:35:00   likely. But people may stop to buy the X. Box One version. [TS]

00:35:06   Because that's where their friends are so the online social networking kind of network effect. [TS]

00:35:12   Social lock in thing may be more of a factor than any killer game because it's really hard for any platform to get a [TS]

00:35:17   killer game it's exclusive to it these days because the big titles are so big that Microsoft [TS]

00:35:23   or Sony would have to pay I can you imagine Microsoft [TS]

00:35:25   or Sonny ever paying enough money to rock star to make the next G.T.A. Of schools will be on the console there's not. [TS]

00:35:30   I don't think they have enough money to do that because they make so much more money by putting it out everywhere that. [TS]

00:35:35   Rockstar says well for we're going to forego P.C. And P.S. [TS]

00:35:38   For Microsoft you're going to have to pay us so much money you're ready for that [TS]

00:35:42   and the answer is No they're not so I don't know it's kind of like big movie studios making a movie [TS]

00:35:47   or two hundred million dollars. And then only showing in a certain brand of movie theaters no. [TS]

00:35:51   No change in movie theaters going to for do that it's not quite the same but I would love to see that [TS]

00:35:56   and of course this first party games like Halo and stuff like that [TS]

00:35:58   but historically it's been difficult for those games to match up with the with the cumulative massive sales machine [TS]

00:36:06   that is the popular franchises that are multi-platform like Call of Duty and. When he caught. [TS]

00:36:13   Destiny's coming out soon and went after auto and all those things. Sports. Yeah. It's all the A game. You know. [TS]

00:36:21   The men franchise stuff like that you know you know so I'm not a gamer anymore I don't see any I rarely play games on [TS]

00:36:28   my i Phone I have a we're Aaron and I have a lead that hasn't been plugged in. For months now. [TS]

00:36:35   And I was at my for we were at my friend. Phil's house over the weekend and he has an X. Box one and. [TS]

00:36:42   I didn't play any games although I saw him play Need for Speed which looked extraordinarily boring but it was pretty. [TS]

00:36:51   But we did use it because he has his T.V. Going through it and I forget the technical term for that the basically the X. [TS]

00:36:56   Box is eating the T.V. Signal. And I are blasting to his direct T.V. [TS]

00:37:00   Receiver in order to change channels and so on and so forth. I believe it's called Web T.V. [TS]

00:37:05   For second I think you're serious. Anyway. So the point being that with the Audi oaken trolls you know X. Box. [TS]

00:37:13   Player Geo turn to tune to Comedy Central revenues I'm probably getting that wrong. [TS]

00:37:17   That was just like Siri in that when it worked. It was the work of magic. [TS]

00:37:23   But when it didn't work which was I would say two thirds of the time. It was infuriating. But I can see where the X. [TS]

00:37:31   Box One is a very nifty in different take on what the next iteration of television might be in that it's all voice [TS]

00:37:39   controlled. [TS]

00:37:40   I'd never saw anything gesture based on even know if there's a gesture based system [TS]

00:37:43   but it's all force controlled you can put the T.V. [TS]

00:37:46   On one side of the screen put something else in the other side of the screen like a video game [TS]

00:37:50   or whatever it was very very cool. It. Nothing about it made me want to get one. [TS]

00:37:55   But I could see why it would be appealing and I can see if. If a person who like to play games. [TS]

00:38:00   Wanted something more than just a game console I could absolutely see how this would be very very appealing. [TS]

00:38:05   I wonder how much of it is you know Microsoft is really making a very clear bet here. They're betting on Convergence. [TS]

00:38:13   And of course. Historically in our energy we had things like Web T.V. and and Various attempts that. [TS]

00:38:18   Since around the T.V. [TS]

00:38:19   Set and trying to you know motion to two distinct devices the connected T.V.'s together into one and. [TS]

00:38:26   Usually those a failed or these been mediocre at best. Microsoft bet here is. They think that having your T.V. [TS]

00:38:35   Controlled by your game console is a really big deal at the game console is more than just a game console it's like a [TS]

00:38:40   home media. T.V. Activity consul. Whereas you know Sony is gone for more than the pure gaming so is intending really. [TS]

00:38:46   The pure gaming system that's separate and dedicated as as John's discussed a lot. [TS]

00:38:52   But the question is I think whether Microsoft is right like how how many people want to merge those two experiences. [TS]

00:38:59   I would actually guess it's a low number. Relative to everyone who buys X. [TS]

00:39:03   Boxes I would say the portion of them the want to also control their T.V. [TS]

00:39:07   Through it and have those experiences be very merged together. [TS]

00:39:10   I wouldn't guess it's very high but I could be very wrong about that. [TS]

00:39:14   I think there's a there's a little bit of a potential we effect here in that one of the reason is that we look at those [TS]

00:39:19   graphs of console sales of the weasel line shot up like a rocket with such an incredible slope is because we had a. [TS]

00:39:28   I don't want to call the novelty factor but it's more or less what it is. And that people are curious. [TS]

00:39:32   What would it be like to play games I was going a little remote around. [TS]

00:39:36   Because it was an experience that people hadn't done. And people bought it. [TS]

00:39:39   Just because like they didn't necessarily even think it was going to be good [TS]

00:39:43   but they just said well this is a new thing. And I know some people have tried it and I'm not one of those people. [TS]

00:39:48   I need to get one of those. So I can try to see what this is like good or bad. And the X. [TS]

00:39:53   Box One like three sixty had connect right but it was an add on [TS]

00:39:56   and add ons have notoriously bad sell through rates for Consols like of all the X. [TS]

00:40:00   Box three sixty so what percentage of those people bought connect that's very low. All of the X. [TS]

00:40:05   Box ones come with the connect to [TS]

00:40:07   and Microsoft was adamant about that is one of the many reasons that their console is one hundred dollars more than [TS]

00:40:11   Sony's. [TS]

00:40:12   And they're taking the hit they said look we're going to make them all come with that and that means every single X. [TS]

00:40:16   Box One has the sort of we effect of people wondering. I wonder what would be like to talk to my T.V. [TS]

00:40:22   or To wave my hands around like a maniac and try to make menus go. [TS]

00:40:25   Maybe those same people think it's going to be stupid and bad. [TS]

00:40:28   Or maybe they tried their friends connect one and didn't like it but they're like. [TS]

00:40:31   But this one is better and like there's just that curiosity about it. [TS]

00:40:36   And so that that factor alone no matter how it ends up being even of ends up being a total disaster no never use it [TS]

00:40:41   anymore they just use it to play games like it a three sixty. Just the fact that it gets people in the door. [TS]

00:40:46   Curious about it I think is a really big strength for Microsoft. In this generation. [TS]

00:40:51   Because they all come with CONNECT. And as for actually using it. I've heard mostly reports that trying to use the X. [TS]

00:40:58   Box want to watch television like to control your television is not a good experience for the same reason that. [TS]

00:41:02   Like the television market is littered with the bodies of of companies that have tried to put a box of burning a T.V. [TS]

00:41:08   and Let you control your T.V. [TS]

00:41:09   With it it is just really hard [TS]

00:41:11   and complicated because of our terrible is in the US are terrible cable television system with non-standardized all the [TS]

00:41:16   stuff and people are thing like. It's better to use like my cable boxes guide the new easy to use the X. [TS]

00:41:21   Box guy that's pretty damning when you have a five hundred dollars box. That your tax your T.V. [TS]

00:41:25   and It's better just to your cable box also everyone hates their cable box God because they're all terrible. [TS]

00:41:30   Right and they're saying look the excise on was worse but. But I think like even if the excise one. [TS]

00:41:35   If it gets people to buy it for the novelty factor [TS]

00:41:37   and then they just use it like a three sixty that's still a win for Microsoft because using it like a three sixty means [TS]

00:41:42   using X. Box Live. What when you're watching T.V. [TS]

00:41:45   All the quickly switch over to a game and play it or switch back to T.V. [TS]

00:41:48   when People are in the lobby and stuff like that even that functionality which is not that big a deal. [TS]

00:41:52   That's something that Sony can't match because they don't have H.D. Myin. Right so I don't think the X. [TS]

00:41:58   Box One has to fill all the magical Minority Report. Voice recognition Syria AI dreams. [TS]

00:42:03   It just has to do one or two things that the P S four can't. And basically be an updated three sixty with Kinect open. [TS]

00:42:11   And maybe they will still not be any decent games that any game really cares about that use connect but we'll see. [TS]

00:42:17   This episode. [TS]

00:42:18   Also brought to you by our friends at Tang Tang is mobile that makes sense to me as a reseller of the Sprint network in [TS]

00:42:26   the US go to our special U.R.L. A.T.P. Dot ting dot com. [TS]

00:42:30   Taking has great rates and there's no contract and no early termination fees. You own your device. [TS]

00:42:36   Outright from the start. They have a true pay for what you use pricing model. [TS]

00:42:41   You just pay a base price of six dollars per month per device. [TS]

00:42:44   And then years automatically build for the actual amount of minutes messages of megabytes that you use each month. [TS]

00:42:49   So if use one hundred megs of data this month. And one gig next month that's fine. [TS]

00:42:53   You don't need to guess what you're going to need in advance or remember to upgrade and downgrade each month. [TS]

00:42:58   You can pay for what you use. You can see how much you can save with taken by going to A.T.P. [TS]

00:43:02   Touting the COM and checking out the savings calculator. [TS]

00:43:05   You can enter your last few bills from your just in carrier and will show you how much time will save over time. [TS]

00:43:10   If you have a rise and you can even have them. [TS]

00:43:12   Log into your account automatically and scrape the stats so it's pretty cool. So if you're also. [TS]

00:43:18   If you're stuck in a contract with someone else. [TS]

00:43:20   And you to pay an early termination fee to get yourself detained they will even give you a twenty five percent credit [TS]

00:43:24   of it back in service credit. Up to seventy five dollars. [TS]

00:43:28   So like cover to has a great customer support with a no hold no wait phone number. [TS]

00:43:34   You just call them anytime between A.T.M. An eight P.M. [TS]

00:43:36   Eastern and a human being will pick up the phone was able to help you. And quite nice too. [TS]

00:43:42   So you can have as many devices to your account as you'd like and their usage and billing are pooled each month. [TS]

00:43:46   So this is actually really cool if you mean if you need to manage a fleet of devices. [TS]

00:43:50   At the pool usage and you get a robust multi device management panel. Really cool stuff. [TS]

00:43:54   Last week I mentioned how they would be great for developers who want to Android test phones with inexpensive data [TS]

00:43:59   plans and no contracts [TS]

00:44:01   and not only can you pick from their wide array of Android devices you can even buy the new Nexus five from the Google [TS]

00:44:06   Play store and bring it to TNG. Since TO includes tethering with their data at no additional charge. [TS]

00:44:12   That's pretty cool. You can also use a tin device as a primary or back of tethering hotspot while traveling. [TS]

00:44:18   I've always recommended having multiple carrier devices for that and it's pretty great when you do. [TS]

00:44:22   So how do you get there. You can buy a new or used device from TNG. [TS]

00:44:26   Or you can bring any of your own compatible Sprint devices. You can go to A.T.P. [TS]

00:44:30   Touting dot com to see if your particular Sprint device is compatible. [TS]

00:44:34   Now it's time to address the elephant in the room with Ting. Everyone has always asked. What about the i Phone. [TS]

00:44:41   Well the big news as of very recently. You can now bring your sprint. I Phone four or four S. To Tang. [TS]

00:44:48   So go check them out A.T.P. Dot ting dot com. Now compatible with the i Phone. [TS]

00:44:53   Thanks a lot the tang for sponsoring the show. [TS]

00:44:55   I don't lower down the ME IN THAT NO to the room I want to hoist up your car complaints. No Apple buys Prime Sense. [TS]

00:45:05   There's your way that story. I didn't What's this about Prime Sense is the company that originally made the sensors. [TS]

00:45:12   For the connect the original connect. Was interesting. So quick sort of like. [TS]

00:45:16   I might have got that slightly wrong but basically used to it looks like company but yeah I've all. [TS]

00:45:21   You know there's a reason for this what this company does makes connect like sensors [TS]

00:45:24   and they were I think they were involved in the development of the original connect if not to connect to [TS]

00:45:29   and that is interesting because Apple tends not to buy companies frivolously unless they're color. [TS]

00:45:37   And that was a great domain name. Cheese they buy call over the nobody ever packs. Fine. You would imagine though. [TS]

00:45:45   Like it's like when they bought P.A. [TS]

00:45:47   Semi is that they bought this company because they have an interest in some kind of sensor stuff [TS]

00:45:51   and I think everyone was thinking. OK Well Microsoft on the X. Box One of the T.V. [TS]

00:45:55   Integration Apple still has yet to make whatever we think they're crazy movies are going to be in the T.V. [TS]

00:45:59   World of the little black talk. [TS]

00:46:01   Because the of Jobs said in his book that always correct the problem [TS]

00:46:04   and we haven't seen anything that seems to have to match up with that. [TS]

00:46:07   So we're still waiting for the other shoe to drop on T.V. and Then they buy the sensor maker. [TS]

00:46:11   And on the one hand it's like way too late for them to be buying the sensor maker ever expect them to have a product [TS]

00:46:15   next year that involves a sensor all. If you think of how long it took for us to see clear fruits of the P S M E. [TS]

00:46:20   Acquisition. But on the other hand. [TS]

00:46:23   It also implies that they think that sensor related things are important enough for them to buy a company that probably [TS]

00:46:30   has patents but also expertise in the technology it so it's beyond the phase where they're like let's just go. [TS]

00:46:35   To connect and hook it up to some you know. [TS]

00:46:37   Big Box of wires [TS]

00:46:38   and see if it's in a useful thing to have it seems like they're into the phase where they're getting serious about this [TS]

00:46:42   and the question is what do they do with this technology and I guess that I think everyone assumes that it's T.V. [TS]

00:46:48   Related but I think it could just as easily be I wish device related as an i Pad and i Phones. [TS]

00:46:54   Because I think about all the crazy stuff that Samsung does with their Galaxy phones are the stupid things that track [TS]

00:46:59   your eyes and like that you don't have to touch a screen how terrible that works. And I think. All right. [TS]

00:47:04   That's terrible. But what if there was a way to do some tiny subset of that. Better. [TS]

00:47:09   You know to an Apple level of quality where they're happy with happy with making this part of the I was device [TS]

00:47:14   experience. [TS]

00:47:15   What can you do with the ability for your i Pad [TS]

00:47:18   or i Phone to sense more about you than just where your fingers touching in the orientation acceleration. [TS]

00:47:25   So I think I would give it a fifty fifty chance that the technology involved. [TS]

00:47:29   Coming with expertise in technology and everything coming from this company. Bush open and I was devised. [TS]

00:47:35   Just as likely I think as it showing up in a T.V. Like device. [TS]

00:47:37   And I think about an interview like that I don't I don't know what they would do with it I would imagine they could do [TS]

00:47:42   something small and simple and like the proximity sensor but more sophisticated using the camera. [TS]

00:47:48   and more proximity sensors to be more intelligent about something using eyelets that I thought are not over his T.V. [TS]

00:47:54   What are we going to be standing up in front of a wave in our hands like Graham from an X. Box one. I don't know. [TS]

00:47:58   I wonder if we could even be used in any way to to support the that camera you know maybe for. [TS]

00:48:05   For looking at the scene in a way similar to how fate detect estimate work. [TS]

00:48:09   And I feel are is maybe prodding better focus performance or a more accurate. [TS]

00:48:13   Depth map of what's going on in the scene. Maybe someone who knows. [TS]

00:48:16   Yeah I was going to interest like if you look at the connect it was impressive technology like it. [TS]

00:48:21   I don't know if a double the resolution of the connect one or quadruple that [TS]

00:48:23   but it is way better like it I think it can sense fingers now. Whereas the connect one can barely sense hand so. [TS]

00:48:30   The technology has come a long way and obviously you can't fit something like connect size into an I O. S. [TS]

00:48:36   Device although you couldn't elect a little T.V. Bar type thing but there's surely something you can do. [TS]

00:48:41   If you can get. I are color image edge a Texan and depth map from these multi sensor things. [TS]

00:48:49   Surely there's something interesting you can do about that even if it's only just like kind of having having the phone [TS]

00:48:54   have more awareness of what the person who's using it is doing. [TS]

00:48:57   Even if you never used to control the phone or whatever just so the phone kind of knows. [TS]

00:49:01   They're staring at me they're not I'm in a pocket I'm not I'm being held up to a head I'm not like just those simple [TS]

00:49:07   things could make the phone experience better without ever actually exposing a feature. To the user and for the T.V. [TS]

00:49:12   Thing again I have no idea who is known as any idea what the hell they're doing on T.V.. [TS]

00:49:16   but It is intriguing to say the least. It might be only one who doesn't really care what the doing on T.V.. [TS]

00:49:22   I think you are the only one. Just think like. I don't like the Apple T.V. [TS]

00:49:27   I would love for the software on to be more reliable [TS]

00:49:30   and for the service that backs at the entire i Tunes store for that to be more reliable and work more. [TS]

00:49:36   But the actual like Apple T.V. Box and software experience. I think. Satisfies my needs. For what I want out of a T.V. [TS]

00:49:47   Connected box like and I know. I know everyone wants. [TS]

00:49:50   You know more channels and more availability and live shows and everything else [TS]

00:49:53   and that's that's more an issue of content deals that anything else [TS]

00:49:57   and that's you know that's probably going to be held a command. No matter what they do with the hardware. [TS]

00:50:01   But like I just I'm fine with the T.V. As it is I have Netflix and everything else Netflix. [TS]

00:50:07   You know I have Netflix on there and I have itunes bought stuff. [TS]

00:50:10   And that's about all I really need like what I'm looking to do you have minimal T.V. [TS]

00:50:15   Need to do is if you're if you're more like the average American who consume some portion of sports programming some [TS]

00:50:20   portion of local television and also some portion of network and cable. [TS]

00:50:23   The experience is terrible because all those things are spread out in ten different places I mean even you would just [TS]

00:50:28   for the two places like Oh isn't that like let me check Oh is that an apple do it do you let me check even just that is [TS]

00:50:33   bad but imagine if you multiply that out by like three or four or five places to check [TS]

00:50:37   and then you had way more content some of which is not available online [TS]

00:50:41   and some of which you had to see like you only way you could get it was it was broadcast to you [TS]

00:50:46   and it would be on itunes later [TS]

00:50:47   and maybe you don't want to wait a week because then the things really spoiled for you like. [TS]

00:50:51   If you consume more television from more sources it gets worse and worse [TS]

00:50:55   and worse than ever Mrs waiting for something to clarify this in the same way that that you know Apple clarified using [TS]

00:51:00   your music learn Granted it's like you to have music but hey that was filed labels by big labels or whatever in the US. [TS]

00:51:07   You can just go to i Tunes buying is going to go to seven different places [TS]

00:51:10   and synthesize some sort of system that have a D.V.R. To catch this and I have Netflix and I have Apple T.V. [TS]

00:51:15   and Then I have Amazon Instant Video and I have these devices and. [TS]

00:51:18   I can watch my Tivo and i Pad but I also watch netflix and i Pad but I can't watch Apple T.V. [TS]

00:51:23   and I Pad but I can watch drugs in the i Tunes store and as. It's television continues to be a giant mess again.. [TS]

00:51:29   I'm speaking only about the US I don't know what it's like in the rest the world so the more T.V. [TS]

00:51:33   You consume in the more you use it the worse it is maybe you're still limping along with Apple T.V. [TS]

00:51:38   and That flex and that satisfies you but I think you're in the minority in terms of your television consumption habits. [TS]

00:51:43   Well sure but how many of those problems are really software and content deal problems or even. [TS]

00:51:50   Not even like us off a limitation more of a software choice that was made. [TS]

00:51:54   So you know it's also software choices and content deals. Versus hardware. And you know. Interface problems like.. [TS]

00:52:01   If they did some kind of big connect like think the Apple T.V. [TS]

00:52:05   Then we could we have our arms around to navigate the same small menu full of limited choices [TS]

00:52:10   and expensive options like that's. It's. That's not going to so that's not going to change anything. [TS]

00:52:14   We're not just looking for hardware software solution. [TS]

00:52:17   We're assuming a meeting with i Tunes a hardware software solution i Pod i Tunes in the store with everything was [TS]

00:52:21   Harbor it was software it was content deals that's what we're looking for is something to save us all from everything [TS]

00:52:26   and if you just want to look on the hardware [TS]

00:52:27   and software side you can look at the i Phone as an example where all they had in the beginning. [TS]

00:52:32   Was hardware and software. But the hardware and software was so amazing that it was used as a lever to try to do. [TS]

00:52:38   I mean it didn't. [TS]

00:52:39   Revolutionize the carrier industry but it gave the handset maker more leverage than they ever had before [TS]

00:52:44   and it allowed us to have cell phones not crapped up with the stupid carrier ad ware and crap like that on it. [TS]

00:52:50   That wasn't a big change. It was an improvement. And so I think even just alone but with with. [TS]

00:52:56   You know totally adversarial evil things like carriers. [TS]

00:52:59   Apple is still just through the power of it's amazing hardware [TS]

00:53:01   and software the power of the consumer that wanted it affects some small change in the industry. [TS]

00:53:07   Again at least in the US. For the better. So I would take that into television world. [TS]

00:53:11   If that Apple can't do any content deals [TS]

00:53:12   and everyone hates them just make some amazing device that everybody wants to make television. [TS]

00:53:16   Better for the people who are using it and use that as a lever to say oh well if your kid. [TS]

00:53:20   If you know Time Warner Cable doesn't want to be part of our thing. [TS]

00:53:23   Than all the people who want our magic dance in front of the T.V. Device. [TS]

00:53:27   Are going to be pissed time order and are going to change carriers like like people were going to A.T.M. [TS]

00:53:30   To you from Verizon or whatever because it was the only place that had the i Phone. Again there is a long shots. [TS]

00:53:38   Fans going to happen but something. You can see part of that today though. [TS]

00:53:42   When like whenever there's some kind of dispute between. One of the networks. And one of the big cable companies. [TS]

00:53:47   And the networks pulled pull themselves off the cable channel for like two weeks and. [TS]

00:53:51   The idea is you know that that that the networks hoping the cable company will say. You know. [TS]

00:53:56   Oh come back to us go all of our customers are angry at us and. You know usually they. They just kind of quietly. [TS]

00:54:03   Figure something out and nothing really changes in the end. And you know people. [TS]

00:54:07   People often look at I think we're seeing a lot more recently from from smart. Analyst type people. [TS]

00:54:14   You can look at the P.C. Market. In the ninety's. And so many things that we consider like common. [TS]

00:54:22   Be Hey viewer or the way things work. Is based on the windows and mac. Divide in the ninety's. [TS]

00:54:29   And as time is going on the smart analysts are starting look this [TS]

00:54:33   and say actually that seems more like a complicated fluke. Than the way things actually work you know. [TS]

00:54:40   Open doesn't always win whatever that means. You know. [TS]

00:54:44   Hardware being multi vendor and software running all of it versus the unified vertical integration. [TS]

00:54:51   You know doesn't always work or not work. There's you know there's all these. [TS]

00:54:56   All this like wisdom that's been based on how this one instance of something worked. One time in the industry. [TS]

00:55:01   What in fact it's much more complicated than that and it doesn't always work that way. [TS]

00:55:04   I think the way i Tunes came about in the an ad whose music store. [TS]

00:55:09   I think that's one of those things to where that was a very special time in history that we're not in a time like that [TS]

00:55:15   anymore with any other medium or any other situation or industry. That was a one time thing. [TS]

00:55:21   And I don't think that anybody Apple or otherwise. Is going to be able to reproduce that in a new medium. [TS]

00:55:27   Not the severity. [TS]

00:55:29   But I think the same thing could happen over a much longer time like there was like a big room with I turned maybe I [TS]

00:55:35   would say the breadth of though that's the breadth is where it's going to really suffer like well that's what I'm [TS]

00:55:40   saying like a star of small and what I'm thinking about there is not so much Apple doing it. But Netflix. [TS]

00:55:44   Finding its own shows today overnight. Obviate the need for the networks and H.B.O. No they didn't. [TS]

00:55:49   But you get one or two shows the people I like. [TS]

00:55:52   And it's like OK you didn't do a big bang you didn't like that [TS]

00:55:54   but suddenly a tiny tiny sliver of the power in the content distribution. World. [TS]

00:56:00   Went over to Netflix the thing that has no allegiance to any kind of you know carrier anything like that they got to [TS]

00:56:05   show so what. So if. But if they do that every year for the next fifteen twenty years. [TS]

00:56:10   You can foresee a scenario where either Netflix or a similar player polls power away from the cable companies. [TS]

00:56:16   And the carriers and you know all those stuff. [TS]

00:56:19   In till most [TS]

00:56:21   or a majority of the shows that people want to watch are being funded in a way that has no connection to any cable [TS]

00:56:26   provider or any television network. [TS]

00:56:28   That would be an example of an i Tunes like changes that are happening in three years. Happening in fifteen or twenty. [TS]

00:56:34   Yeah you know I was thinking about it. Well yes we're talking and. [TS]

00:56:37   I'm not so sure that you're right Marco that the i Tunes kind of phenomenon couldn't be repeated what what I was [TS]

00:56:44   thinking about was if you think about what made i Tunes as paired with the i Pod so magical is to me it's a couple of [TS]

00:56:52   things it's acquiring something it's acquiring media and then consuming it [TS]

00:56:57   and so i Tunes allows you to acquire individual songs which is very rare at the time I mean you know they were singles [TS]

00:57:03   but it was weird and clunky. [TS]

00:57:05   And you could acquire these songs without leaving your house which was really awesome and new and then you could [TS]

00:57:10   when you decide decided to leave your house you could consume them on this magical new hardware device. [TS]

00:57:15   And you guys made allusions to this earlier but a theoretical Apple T.V. [TS]

00:57:20   Where you can acquire content very easily in the continent thinking of is sports content [TS]

00:57:26   and I know that you can Marco's eyes just glaze over but for most Americans and I would argue most of the world. [TS]

00:57:33   The sports are big deal and a lot of people pointed out in the chat that the N.F.L. [TS]

00:57:38   Has That's the national American Football League. The Continental It's well you know I mean. [TS]

00:57:43   So they haven't a clue has an exclusive deal with Directv which is a satellite provider. Here in the United States. [TS]

00:57:49   And that runs out I think at the end of the season or if not the end of the season very very soon [TS]

00:57:54   and a lot of people are calling on Apple does just throw money at this problem and get that exclusive deal [TS]

00:57:59   and what that exclusive deal brings is if you're if your DIRECTV customer. You can get what's called N.F.L. [TS]

00:58:04   Sunday ticket because all the games are played on Sundays most them anyway. [TS]

00:58:07   And you can watch any game you want it when it's aired live. [TS]

00:58:11   And so for me as an example I happen to be a fan of The New York Giants I live. [TS]

00:58:21   I only ever get Giants games if it just so happens that read that Redskins [TS]

00:58:25   or any of the other local franchises aren't playing at that time. So imagine a situation where the N.F.L. [TS]

00:58:34   and Apple reach an exclusive deal scenario you can get the content you want. [TS]

00:58:39   Which is the acquire piece because you can watch any game you want and the M.O.B.O. [TS]

00:58:43   Already does this Major League Baseball does this the N.B.A. Believe already does this or in I think the N.H.L. [TS]

00:58:48   Does I'm probably getting some of that wrong but whatever you get the idea. Well magine a combination of N.F.L.. [TS]

00:58:52   NASCAR and F one. All of them. Easily available on the Apple T.V. Both live and replay and. [TS]

00:59:01   All you need to do is either pay off a little bit or just buy the darn device transporter style. [TS]

00:59:06   And then on top of that Apple has this really slick you I well I like the line the Apple T.V. [TS]

00:59:11   Maybe you don't [TS]

00:59:12   but it's certainly a lot better than most set top boxes like my for Hyson box looks like crap compared to the Apple. [TS]

00:59:17   T.V. [TS]

00:59:18   So now you've got the content or you can acquire the content and now you can consume the content in a nice [TS]

00:59:22   and easy way and I see some not direct parallels with with i Tunes and the i Pod [TS]

00:59:28   but certainly some parallels nevertheless. [TS]

00:59:30   I don't know that sports is enough to really get them over the proverbial hump. [TS]

00:59:34   But I think it could be a really really interesting way to attack attack traditional T.V. [TS]

00:59:41   With without having to go after movies and T.V. Shows in the traditional sense. And to reinforce Marcus point. The. [TS]

00:59:48   Dave big difference here is that the players know the players saw what happened to be using. [TS]

00:59:52   And so everybody is super paranoid about putting too many eggs in one basket. So if Apple. [TS]

00:59:58   By some miracle decided to spend. The billions of dollars it would take to get the N.F.L. To that degree. [TS]

01:00:03   Any other sports franchise [TS]

01:00:04   or be like we sure as hell can't go that well because then they would have two sports franchises [TS]

01:00:08   and look what happened in music. If we like. They all had. [TS]

01:00:11   It's not collusion but they all kind of see what each other are doing. [TS]

01:00:14   And they're all kind of trying to protect their turf [TS]

01:00:17   and spread their bets like like just like the music labels as soon as Amazon became vice. [TS]

01:00:21   All the music of us like we got to go over there [TS]

01:00:23   and just give Amazon everything because we cannot have Apple have all this power is like be the sole one [TS]

01:00:27   and only awesome digital music distribution network. So all of the non-music guys saw what happened in music. [TS]

01:00:34   And that's why it's so hard to do anything with T.V. [TS]

01:00:36   Because they're not going to make that same mistake and that's why I think it has to be a much longer period. [TS]

01:00:42   And probably like the way it's going to happen is the power that's in the hands of the networks. [TS]

01:00:48   And the cable companies now. [TS]

01:00:50   Will shift to a set of companies that look more like Netflix if they're not necessarily Netflix. [TS]

01:00:54   I don't think Apple is going to be in the business of generating content so far they haven't shown that they're willing [TS]

01:00:59   to for example. Put up a couple hundred million dollars to make a new T.V. [TS]

01:01:02   Show so all Apple can do is make deals with somebody and I would imagine.. [TS]

01:01:06   Dealing with Netflix is way easier than dealing with N.B.C. or The N.F.L. And so maybe this insanity there. [TS]

01:01:11   That being said though. I think you're right that. Once one sports franchise gave exclusivity to the Apple T.V.. [TS]

01:01:19   or To Apple in general I think that would give pause to the others however if that one was the N.F.L. [TS]

01:01:27   I think that's enough. Like even. I think enough people and obviously the rest of the world. [TS]

01:01:32   Couldn't possibly care less but in the US you know and this isn't doesn't mean the problems with T.V.. [TS]

01:01:38   Is that it's very regional. In the US If you get the N.F.L. [TS]

01:01:44   You're going to get a craft ton of people buying Apple T.V.'s. [TS]

01:01:48   And that's really what they want they you know what they want out of this kind of effort. [TS]

01:01:52   Would be tons and tons and tons of people buying the Apple T.V. [TS]

01:01:56   and Get having a really good reason to use it frequently and. If you get the N.F.L. Exclusive on there. [TS]

01:02:02   You're going to get that you're going to get a lot of that. And. You know. [TS]

01:02:07   People are not going to give up their cable subscription. They're still going to have cable. So the. [TS]

01:02:12   So not getting the other sports networks wouldn't matter as much this would basically be like like an exclusive console [TS]

01:02:18   game like this would be a killer app for the Apple T.V. For a very large number of people in this country. You know. [TS]

01:02:25   Every time we talk about T.V. [TS]

01:02:26   It's just depressing because there are so many so many entrenched interests [TS]

01:02:30   and then we always tend to keep coming back to the realization and this is just the U.S. [TS]

01:02:34   We're talking about an average is a global company and it cares about worldwide stuff [TS]

01:02:38   and you can kind of see how Apple in their own means would be like. [TS]

01:02:41   Look at all this crap and we're only still talking about the U.S. Forget about it let's just you know whatever. [TS]

01:02:46   Like that's why I think I like the delegate that let's let Netflix. [TS]

01:02:49   Fight it out me that died trying [TS]

01:02:51   or figure out something to an even net like this I think mostly US centric of well like I think the other countries [TS]

01:02:57   have better ways to get the content they want over more modern digital systems than we do [TS]

01:03:02   and maybe they still have the same monopoly problems that we do [TS]

01:03:04   but like I think people can see the soccer games that they want to see through some interesting digital thing that's [TS]

01:03:12   near them. Whereas in the U.S. [TS]

01:03:14   Like the local television franchise is still such a stranglehold and like with the black at the local blackouts [TS]

01:03:19   and stuff like that of this is just perverse. So it's depressing. [TS]

01:03:23   But I'm still like to see Apple do something even if they do something and it flops like. [TS]

01:03:27   You know it first you know if you see succeed keep trying to go to the Apple T.V. [TS]

01:03:31   The first couple aren't that great the little black pluck is pretty darn good so if there's more to come in that vein [TS]

01:03:36   and they're buying this connect like sensor company. Let's see what you've got right. [TS]

01:03:41   I do think you're right though that that I can't I can't really see Apple. [TS]

01:03:44   Devoting a massive chunk of money on a massive division of their of their product line. [TS]

01:03:50   And therefore their attention to something that only works in the U.S. or Will only succeed in the U.S. That. [TS]

01:03:56   That's not like Tim Cook. That's for sure. Well but what if you did something like the N.F.L. [TS]

01:04:02   but It but it's a plea Kabul to the rest of the world like F one for example or sock. Or perhaps. [TS]

01:04:07   Well the apple thousand move is away now our television is also now platform. And you crazy. [TS]

01:04:13   After helpers in every region of the country. [TS]

01:04:15   You sort out how to help get your stuff like out of like the M L B Yeah you know they made an app platform [TS]

01:04:21   and i OS devices they didn't do a deal with Major League Baseball they made an applet form. [TS]

01:04:24   And then and will be made the app. [TS]

01:04:26   And then figured out it's crazy way that you're going to pay for it or whatever [TS]

01:04:29   but like that that's an opportunity for people not as an apple move because a platform is global [TS]

01:04:33   and then individual applications are local That is true. [TS]

01:04:38   We want to move on to the sweet jobs that are available penny arcade. [TS]

01:04:44   I don't know that there's that much more to say about this I kind of a middle over Twitter all morning about it [TS]

01:04:49   and wrote The Big Book People haven't read your blog or read your Twitter so you have to reiterate and summarize here. [TS]

01:04:56   And as someone who works for the man. Marco you know quite a bit about these sorts of issues and. [TS]

01:05:04   I used to work for various men. Do you remember that. It was launched. I think so. [TS]

01:05:13   So Penny Arcade put up his job listing for one person who was responsible for basically developing [TS]

01:05:22   and running all the websites and servers. And all their in-house. [TS]

01:05:27   Tools like various like him and Tory trackers when they sell good stuff like that. [TS]

01:05:31   Managing the conference site stuff like that and also doing all of their local I.T. For their workers and their office. [TS]

01:05:39   And in exchange for all of this. They will force you to be a workaholic. [TS]

01:05:44   That they they kind of flippantly glorify how they how you won't have any kind of free time this will be the work you [TS]

01:05:53   to the bone. [TS]

01:05:54   And your and you'll like it and they'll make up for it by paying you a sub par salary [TS]

01:06:01   and giving you some kind of nice perks. In the office like I don't know like nice chairs and snacks. Whatever. [TS]

01:06:09   You know something i would cost a lot less than than a good salary. And the whole the whole posting has this. [TS]

01:06:16   This arrogant attitude of like. This is really a terrible job and you're going to love it and. Now. [TS]

01:06:24   Really quickly genuine question do they. You're assuming that the salaries. Crummy right now they say in the ad. [TS]

01:06:31   They say they say were we recognize that we're going to play I don't know the exact words [TS]

01:06:35   but they say that we were going to pay. [TS]

01:06:38   Maybe below market because we're not our money oriented company or something like that and we run lean. [TS]

01:06:44   I mean the ad is honest in the penny arcade style of honesty. Where they have you ever seen a job ad before they say. [TS]

01:06:51   Work life balance. Forget it. Like that's basically what this says. Some you know some place. [TS]

01:06:56   Everybody always says oh we have great work late to live the places that don't have great work like the I still say in [TS]

01:07:01   the job at all we're great about work like balance and fact. If they talk a lot about work life balance. [TS]

01:07:06   Too much in the ad that's also a warning sign. [TS]

01:07:08   But this one they come right out and say you know you're not really going to have a good work life balance. [TS]

01:07:13   Work will be your life that's the type of person we're looking for that's the type of job. Says Yeah. [TS]

01:07:17   I don't know the whole thing just kind of rub me the wrong way like it. It just basically. [TS]

01:07:23   My problem with it you know there's a lot of terrible employers out there. And the tech industry is no exception. [TS]

01:07:29   My problem with it is a penny arcade is very high profile and. [TS]

01:07:33   It's damaging to people when they expect that this is the norm that. [TS]

01:07:37   That they should totally given to them to their job and have no personal life [TS]

01:07:42   and if this is what's normally expected of them in this industry and. Yeah that's true for a lot of employers. [TS]

01:07:48   That doesn't make it good and. [TS]

01:07:50   That doesn't mean there's not also a lot of great places to work that actually respect people [TS]

01:07:54   and respect people's health and respect people's lives and [TS]

01:07:58   and want people to stay there for more than a couple years you know like I reading reading the form posting from the [TS]

01:08:04   guy who has this job now kind of. [TS]

01:08:07   And he kind of said you know this is you know like I chose this and therefore you know. Get on my life kind of thing. [TS]

01:08:13   But it just kind of confirms what. [TS]

01:08:16   What we think they mean by the job posting it just kind of confirms that where it's a. [TS]

01:08:21   It's constant work you're on call twenty four seven. [TS]

01:08:24   He says he can't go on vacation anywhere where he's not reachable by cell phone [TS]

01:08:29   and can't get a data connection to like logon to fix a server if it's down. He sleeps with a laptop next of the bed. [TS]

01:08:35   Right. I mean and this is. I did a lot of this for Tumblr because Which is why I'm sensitive to it. This is basically. [TS]

01:08:41   This was my job at Tumblr for the first four years. The difference was I was paid very well and I got a lot of stock. [TS]

01:08:48   And that I think was fair like I was. I was doing the work of a co-founder and I was paid. Like a co-founder and. [TS]

01:08:59   That's very very different than something like this which is like they're already have something like it was like [TS]

01:09:06   twenty employees somebody said they're there to have a lot of employees. They they run a very popular Web site. [TS]

01:09:12   That gets a that gets a lot of traffic. [TS]

01:09:14   They were actually run multiple websites they get lots of traffic there's obviously you know. [TS]

01:09:20   They could have two people doing this. [TS]

01:09:22   They don't need to have one person doing all this is paid very badly or they could have one. Well paid person. [TS]

01:09:27   And they're choosing not to because they simply don't need to because they're they're so popular that enough people [TS]

01:09:34   will apply that they can get somebody who will do it from was nothing [TS]

01:09:37   and that's all the other the other thing they're offering is you get to be an employee of Penny Arcade [TS]

01:09:41   and like that the work life balance so they say doesn't exist it's because they kind of have this big work family thing [TS]

01:09:46   going where it. [TS]

01:09:48   The people who work there seem to be happy about the idea that you're you the people you work with are like your family. [TS]

01:09:56   And the stuff that you would get in a normal home life. [TS]

01:09:59   You can get more of it work [TS]

01:10:01   and I think some of the things in this form that says I call some people do leave it a fiver or whatever and. Like. [TS]

01:10:06   That's But that's the trade off though is that you are. You may not be getting high pay or something but you get. [TS]

01:10:14   Presumably to work in an environment that's much more fun than just working for some faceless corporation because you [TS]

01:10:20   really like Penny Arcade because you think you'll have fun with the people there [TS]

01:10:22   and a lot of their interview process if you look at their passing of years is about trying to find someone who not only [TS]

01:10:28   can do the job but also. Fitzsimmons although the people because they're there. [TS]

01:10:32   Most kind of like interviewing a new friend. [TS]

01:10:34   We're like OK so this person did the job but we're only going to hire them. [TS]

01:10:37   If we would like to hang out with this person because we know that's kind of our work environment we're all going to be [TS]

01:10:42   hanging out together and doing stuff [TS]

01:10:44   and that sounds a lot like kind of a startup type environment with a bunch of friends who start a company [TS]

01:10:50   and like Marco said that's all well and good. [TS]

01:10:52   But I know I personally would never in a million years want to do this job. [TS]

01:10:59   If I was not also going to benefit from the fruits of my labor like if you are in a startup [TS]

01:11:03   and you are an early employing you work like this because that's how everybody and starts work [TS]

01:11:07   but all do this they all do fifty jobs overcritical as ours they all don't get paid a lot because not a lot of money [TS]

01:11:11   and you have to spend a venture capital and like servers and acquiring new customers and stuff. [TS]

01:11:16   But the upside is that if you make it. [TS]

01:11:18   You share in the in the victory like Margo Sheridan you know when somebody got tumblr stock and [TS]

01:11:23   when they sold the Ahuja he shared in that right. He didn't do all that work. And then today. [TS]

01:11:28   You know just quickly with nothing right. So if you're in this job and no. [TS]

01:11:33   I'm basically no one should work of this hard no matter how young you are no matter how awesome the job is no one [TS]

01:11:38   should sacrifice the other parts their life this degree if they don't share in it and that I think. [TS]

01:11:42   To me personally the reason I wouldn't take this job [TS]

01:11:45   and the reason I would recommend would not recommend anyone else take this job is that. [TS]

01:11:49   It seems to me it's so hard to tell this is a privately held company [TS]

01:11:52   but it seems to me that some people are benefiting greatly from. [TS]

01:11:56   From what appears to be the success of Penny Arcade and those people are. The founders of the company like that too. [TS]

01:12:01   You know Mike and Jerry. And Robert are are benefitting great. [TS]

01:12:06   From it financially it seems like again we don't know we can't tell they've talked a little bit [TS]

01:12:10   but it seems like they're making a lot. The rest of the people in the company. [TS]

01:12:13   It doesn't seem like are benefiting as greatly and. [TS]

01:12:17   If you're going to have a startup type environment where you're asking this of all the people involved. [TS]

01:12:21   And the people are willing to do it in their happy. [TS]

01:12:23   I feel like they should be sharing in the success of the company because this is not like a new star of They've been [TS]

01:12:28   around for years. And this team of people. [TS]

01:12:31   Has made a very successful enterprise I feel like maybe they all share equally but that whole idea that. [TS]

01:12:36   Seven people work their butts off and three people get rich. Drives me insane. Right. [TS]

01:12:41   If you get I mean most of the time nobody gets rich. Sunday work their butts off and everyone goes home set right. [TS]

01:12:47   But in the cases where seven people work their butts off. Three people shouldn't get rich. [TS]

01:12:51   Seven people to get rich maybe three who get richer. But that's what I feel like should happen. And I can't. [TS]

01:12:56   From what I can tell in the outside in seem like that's happening. [TS]

01:12:58   And again I'm I'm friendly as well as why I would not take a job and want to recommend someone didn't take it [TS]

01:13:03   but I think the much more interesting question is Is this a bad thing to do. [TS]

01:13:08   If everybody who works at Penny Arcade is happy with their job. [TS]

01:13:12   So I think you guys are judging this from a very similar angle to the way I judge it however it is not the only angle. [TS]

01:13:20   And the reason I say that is because my first job straight out of school was that this company that made slot machines. [TS]

01:13:28   And they the group Group of it was all guys at the time a group of guys that worked there were all. Ex-pats from E.A. [TS]

01:13:39   Who had bought up the company that they had all sort of kind of co-founded it was a game company called Kess My based [TS]

01:13:46   out of Charlottesville Virginia. And by pure happenstance. A large majority of these. [TS]

01:13:52   These guys either didn't have children or didn't have any immediate family so no wives and no kids. [TS]

01:14:00   And so especially a couple of the guys there like my boss when I first got there who I adore. [TS]

01:14:07   He he didn't happen to have a wife and didn't happen to have any kids and so because of that. [TS]

01:14:12   He just ended up working on a lot. And he put on this. Exteriors shell of. [TS]

01:14:19   I don't you know I've this job is a pain the but but it's a job in this is what I do. But I think. [TS]

01:14:25   If you allowed me to armchair be an arch armchair psychiatrist. [TS]

01:14:30   I think he worked a lot partially because it was the most in interest name in an interesting but it was. [TS]

01:14:35   It was a really good way to occupy his time. And so I invision Penny Arcade in a similar way. [TS]

01:14:41   Not to say that these people don't have kids they don't have to there they don't have families [TS]

01:14:44   but there are people that really do just love working a lot and my boss with this place worked. [TS]

01:14:50   Absurd hours like eighty or hundred hours a week. [TS]

01:14:53   But nobody was really telling him to or at least I didn't think so anyway. [TS]

01:14:57   He just enjoyed doing work and he worked six days a week nobody else did but he always did and. [TS]

01:15:04   And I'm not trying to say that he didn't have other things in his life I'm not trying to say that he necessarily [TS]

01:15:09   enjoyed every moment of it. But in certain circumstances. [TS]

01:15:12   There are people that really do like you guys recently [TS]

01:15:15   and want to have want to have a work experience that kind of is their lives. Is that me. Heck now. [TS]

01:15:22   I think I speak three thousand saying that it's certainly not you guys either. [TS]

01:15:26   But for some people that is and if you if you put yourself in that mindset. [TS]

01:15:29   How would you write a job posting to be honest I'd write a kind of like this. [TS]

01:15:34   But see the thing is like Robert who is that person. [TS]

01:15:37   He by his own admission has sacrificed many other parts of his life to be successful in business he is the reason Penny [TS]

01:15:43   Arcade exists in the form it does now. He sacrificed his life to make this amazing company he deserves. [TS]

01:15:50   You know all the credit for that the two artists of course are the spark of this entire thing nothing exists without [TS]

01:15:56   them. So clearly those three. You know. Deserve more than anybody else. [TS]

01:16:01   But like for Robert that was his choice he came up he said I'm disability I'm going to leave. [TS]

01:16:07   I'm going to make this great thing. And I'm. [TS]

01:16:09   I understand the sacrifices involved for it for the two other guys they have wives [TS]

01:16:12   and kids in my impression is yes they work hard and everything yes there are many demands on their time and so on [TS]

01:16:16   and so forth. But it seems like their work life balance isn't all that bad. [TS]

01:16:20   I mean it's again it's so hard to tell what happens then [TS]

01:16:22   and that's why I was getting back to like one of all their employees are happy. [TS]

01:16:26   And people talk about like this job burns people out pretty OK it's been around fifteen years in this job has had two [TS]

01:16:30   people in it. So like you know. Seven a half years each. [TS]

01:16:33   It's obviously not a machine that burns through people or whatever not seven and a half years each. [TS]

01:16:38   The first one was there for like eight years or longer even the the guy who's that who's quitting now. [TS]

01:16:44   Only been there for like two years. [TS]

01:16:45   Well either way it's like two people in the position for over the fifteen your life of the company is not a mill where [TS]

01:16:51   they bring in people neighbor on the mound bring in people and bring them out. But it has. [TS]

01:16:54   It has scaled up over that time as Penny Arcade asking up the job has scaled up so I like it. [TS]

01:16:59   I think it says something that. That you know they had a guy there for a long time he'd left. [TS]

01:17:04   And you know he got really big he left a new guy came in he did the job. [TS]

01:17:09   And and is quitting after only two years concedes more money. [TS]

01:17:13   But like giving back to same point and I'm not but I'm not implying an answer here. [TS]

01:17:16   Like what my real question is like it. If all their employees are happy. [TS]

01:17:21   Is the company still mean for making a job like this. Right I'm saying the same thing if all the employees. [TS]

01:17:26   Enjoy hanging out with the other employees a lot and enjoy working on a lot which is a big a big assumption. [TS]

01:17:33   But if that's the case like if I was one of those people like my boss at my first job. [TS]

01:17:38   And I wanted to write a very forthcoming an honest job posting. [TS]

01:17:43   It would probably look a lot like this doesn't make it right not necessarily but in whatever. Apply for it hack now. [TS]

01:17:49   But it would look a lot like that so like I think my. My opinion on whether this is inherently a bad job posting. [TS]

01:17:57   Is there are some inherently bad aspects of the lot of people point out the inherently bad ass we have it is not so [TS]

01:18:02   much for the people taking the job and not so much for a penny arcade. [TS]

01:18:05   But for the industry that for the position that they're hiring for. [TS]

01:18:09   Because the availability of positions like MS devalues the work those people do. [TS]

01:18:14   Having a company that is attractive enough [TS]

01:18:16   and the intangibles that they're able to ask for people to sacrifice their entire lives. And take below market pay. [TS]

01:18:24   It's not so much of their able to do that it's so much of the existence of companies that are able to do that makes the [TS]

01:18:30   rest of the energy feel like they can turn down the dials on their hiring it sort of makes him like well. [TS]

01:18:36   You're expected to work like a dog and well you're expected not to make too much money. [TS]

01:18:39   and if too many companies do that it sort of makes it seem like oh everybody who works and i T. [TS]

01:18:44   Can never go on vacation and. It's like no you're not Penny Arcade you can't do Do. That because what. [TS]

01:18:49   What are you giving me like it's what makes me sad is that this position is this job description is like an honest [TS]

01:18:56   description of many things like. [TS]

01:18:58   You know insurance companies or big Fortune five hundred companies that are just a terrible description sound. [TS]

01:19:03   But they lie on their applications. [TS]

01:19:05   And they're not fun places to work and they don't give you anything to balance off of this [TS]

01:19:08   but still the existence of Penny Arcade in the bill is kind of like. Margot's talked about this on past those and like. [TS]

01:19:14   Life isn't fair right. The idea of developers and designers doing work for free. [TS]

01:19:18   Devalues the work of developers and designers. Ethical why are they doing the work for free. [TS]

01:19:22   Sometimes they're doing the work for free because it's fun because they're college student and it's fun to make apps [TS]

01:19:26   and it's fun to do designs and. You're trying to make a living doing your like. [TS]

01:19:30   Goddamn these people don't work for free. They're devaluing the work of everybody who does. [TS]

01:19:34   They are they are devaluing with. [TS]

01:19:36   But they're doing it because it's fun and because like they're intangibles right [TS]

01:19:39   and that's a rough situation to be in and you could say. [TS]

01:19:42   Penny Arcade should have a broader view and say we don't want to devalue the work of IP workers [TS]

01:19:48   and so we're going to try to have a more of sort of I guess if you call it like environmental awareness [TS]

01:19:53   but in a job market sense instead of like actual environment. [TS]

01:19:57   That would be a reason not to do this that would be a reason to this job posting is a bad idea. [TS]

01:20:03   Regardless of how happy the employee the not because of the person who gets a job is going to be sad [TS]

01:20:08   and not because Penny Arcade need a company but just because of sort of environmental factors and the second reason. [TS]

01:20:13   This job posting is bad is different and it's think it's much much more concrete and that. [TS]

01:20:17   This is a bad deal to Robert to never have one I.T. Person. [TS]

01:20:21   Well we were just talking about backups for a million years. Just as a person who runs a business. [TS]

01:20:26   This is a bad move business wise. It's. It seems like Penny Arcade does not correctly value. [TS]

01:20:33   The the role of web applications [TS]

01:20:37   and you know technology infrastructure in their company because there's a big company there's a lot of stake here. [TS]

01:20:42   Never trust that to one person not because you're exploiting them not because no one person can do this not because you [TS]

01:20:47   should pay them more don't pay one guy ten times the salary. [TS]

01:20:51   You need redundancy you absolutely positively need redundancy and I think. [TS]

01:20:55   Web stuff [TS]

01:20:56   and online services is such an important part of the Penny Arcade empire as it existed a that there's no way that I [TS]

01:21:01   think that any justification to have a single person the does this. [TS]

01:21:04   For the sake of the company for the sake of the founders for the sake of the other employees. [TS]

01:21:09   Nothing to do with what the job is like you just cannot have one person you cannot. [TS]

01:21:12   And has a side effect that if you have two people then one guy can actually go on vacation as many upsides that [TS]

01:21:17   but ignoring all that pretend he's just like an evil turn of the century industrial revolution. You know. Robber Baron. [TS]

01:21:24   Don't have one God You gotta have redundancy so that would be my appeal to the Penny Arcade guys that it's insane. [TS]

01:21:30   That accompany this big and successful is going to have one idea. [TS]

01:21:33   The Especially because their website being up or websites being up. Is such an important part of the business. [TS]

01:21:40   You know they. [TS]

01:21:41   I would imagine I know they run PACs and that's probably a pretty big business [TS]

01:21:44   but I would imagine the majority of their income. Probably still comes from ad using the site. [TS]

01:21:49   Do you think it's fair to say. I would say it's a. [TS]

01:21:51   I was at an even split between Pax merchandise and advertising on a site [TS]

01:21:55   but again it's privately held companies hard to tell but. [TS]

01:21:57   But they have multiple lines of business and they're big [TS]

01:21:59   but the thing is all of them have some aspect of it that involves websites and services [TS]

01:22:03   and electronic transfers of money. Right. [TS]

01:22:05   Obviously like they're going to lose a lot for any moment at the site is down it's like there [TS]

01:22:09   and the longer it's down the more they go into blues like it's. [TS]

01:22:12   It's not like you know if some restaurant has them psycho down. Who cares. [TS]

01:22:16   You know like they might lose two customers in a weekend. [TS]

01:22:18   If you know if they can see the website and figure out their hours. [TS]

01:22:21   But for some like this yeah you're right that it's very important and. [TS]

01:22:26   And part of it like I should even point out now is now I'm thinking about this. My job at Tumblr wasn't quite. [TS]

01:22:32   This extreme. [TS]

01:22:33   Because David could log in to fix things he wasn't as good at it as I was you know you weren't You're the only one. [TS]

01:22:39   Right like. He that was like he that was like his secondary ability his primary ability was coding all the. [TS]

01:22:44   You know the front and the middle layer but. But he could log in and fix servers. To some degree. [TS]

01:22:50   When I was not available look was not often but you know he could do it. And he did do it. [TS]

01:22:54   And sometimes he could only like you know. Slightly manage things until I got back. [TS]

01:22:58   Sometimes you can fix the problem plea. So. [TS]

01:23:02   And the and the only reason that it was acceptable to have all of that even resting on me. [TS]

01:23:07   Was because there were only two employees. Like that was it was just two of us for so long. [TS]

01:23:12   That's why it was OK because there was nobody else available [TS]

01:23:15   and we couldn't afford anybody else for sucked for a very long time to be you know I think if you can get away with [TS]

01:23:20   they get all the time one person fifteen years is not like I'm saying that you're doomed you can't have one person. [TS]

01:23:24   The fact that they can get away with it it's I think it's just penny wise pound foolish like ignoring of whether that [TS]

01:23:28   person shares an assessor the company to the degree I think they should [TS]

01:23:31   and none of us can know because we don't know about their bonuses are whatever [TS]

01:23:34   but although they didn't mention any equity but whatever. Ignoring all of that. [TS]

01:23:37   And I'm willing to give them all the benefit of the doubt on that a matter of fact because the few things they have [TS]

01:23:43   that probably one of them is that the conflict in buyout offers because who wouldn't want to buy them because they're [TS]

01:23:47   just a you know. A money making machine. When they entertain buyout offers. What they what the guys in charge did said. [TS]

01:23:54   If we take this buyout offer we're going to dole out the money to all of the people in the company [TS]

01:23:58   and that would be correctly sharing the Enco like it was like. [TS]

01:24:01   We're not going to take a buyout in the three founders leaving you guys just are out of a job [TS]

01:24:04   or whatever it was were if we take this money. We're going to divide it probably not even Lee But you know. [TS]

01:24:10   We're going to divided amongst all employees as if all the employees had had equity in the company which as far as I [TS]

01:24:14   know they don't legally have equity in the company but that was what the founders did. [TS]

01:24:17   They're nice guys they're looking out for their people again this is like a family. [TS]

01:24:21   And when they took a vote they let the whole company vote on this and not a single. Person voted to take the buyout. [TS]

01:24:27   Even though they knew. Like if we do this you can be. You can get some large presumably large amount of money. [TS]

01:24:32   Not a single person the company voter base all the people in the company want to you have a Mark O'Connor. [TS]

01:24:36   Can you know. Identify with this. [TS]

01:24:38   They wanted to continue doing masters of their own destinies they want to continue to be the family that is that [TS]

01:24:43   decides if we decide what Penny Arcade does we collectively we twelve or twenty people in this room. [TS]

01:24:48   We are penny arcade. We don't want to sell out. [TS]

01:24:50   It's more important to us than the money to continue to be able to steer our own ship. [TS]

01:24:56   And I think that speaks to the kind of company and is. I just think. One idea person. I mean just as. [TS]

01:25:01   Just as they don't have a single artist in the company. [TS]

01:25:04   They have multiple hours doing multiple things and multiple comic strips and. One person is not enough. [TS]

01:25:09   But also it looks like from from the current job occupants. [TS]

01:25:13   Post in the form from his description of his work and his skills. [TS]

01:25:16   It really does also look like he's not a very knowledgeable says admin. [TS]

01:25:21   And that he has made his main focus is development. [TS]

01:25:24   Not server ministration or infrastructure management you know burning. Load balancer and stuff. [TS]

01:25:29   And most of that he just pays rack space to do. And you know. [TS]

01:25:33   And that's out that's actually very expensive by the way but he pays Rex base to do and. [TS]

01:25:38   So it actually sounds like they don't really have a dedicated system in at all like eat. [TS]

01:25:43   It isn't even that this person's doing. All four of those jobs with equal weight. It's he's mostly a developer. [TS]

01:25:49   And he happens to do a little bit of system integration for the most part most system in tasks. [TS]

01:25:53   Seem to be gone and done. Or at least adequately covered. [TS]

01:25:57   It's going on a company that's not a software company tries to write software internally they don't know they don't [TS]

01:26:02   quite know what's involved in software and Penny Arcade. Seems like companies that. It's not if you. [TS]

01:26:07   If your company was like Dropbox for your whole company is this like. [TS]

01:26:11   Is this software and web services you provide like the whole company is focused around that [TS]

01:26:15   and Penny Arcade is a creative company their whole company is focused on creative endeavors [TS]

01:26:18   and they do the creative stuff great right. [TS]

01:26:20   There did don't think of themselves as a company as like oh we run a Web site the Web site is like just how we get our [TS]

01:26:26   creative outlet to people and it seems like they don't you know don't know how to manage [TS]

01:26:30   or don't know how to value it correctly because you're right. [TS]

01:26:32   Paying all that money to rack space again penny wise pound foolish. And like for the for the penny arcade. [TS]

01:26:38   For the panic Expo. [TS]

01:26:39   Ticket sales I think the outsource that this year or some other company that does like Ticket sales things [TS]

01:26:43   and it did not go well like it went the same whenever you see you like cover it live [TS]

01:26:47   or whatever those live blogging platforms that are out there buying I tried to buy tickets are packed this year. [TS]

01:26:52   And it was the same situation as cover it live where the site was down and you were in a queue [TS]

01:26:57   and you can get pages to load in the never like lower than the C.S.S. and You can tell if you've purchased anything. [TS]

01:27:02   You know. That was the outsource that and that didn't work well either. [TS]

01:27:05   Like that is a core part of the business they should be investing in it way more than they are you know it's almost as [TS]

01:27:11   if like in in the tumbler Earl example it's almost as if they already have hired a David [TS]

01:27:16   but they haven't hired me like they have like. [TS]

01:27:20   I mean that in the least arrogant way that I can say it like they have the front end developer [TS]

01:27:25   and let the middleware developer and they haven't. Like this is the job of two people at least and. [TS]

01:27:31   They've only hired for the front half of it and not for like the back and half. [TS]

01:27:36   And of course not going to pay somebody enough to do both. I think even the pay thing low. [TS]

01:27:41   It's so if they the Add the added honest to a fault and. But we don't have numbers. [TS]

01:27:47   So you don't know like maybe they think they're paying below market [TS]

01:27:50   but they're still actually offering a reasonably good salary [TS]

01:27:52   or maybe they're offering a ridiculous low salary we can't tell from the ad. [TS]

01:27:56   All we can tell us from the people who work there and. This one person who's living. [TS]

01:28:00   It's hard to tell from them the guy who was there for eight years. [TS]

01:28:03   Obviously enjoyed it and probably just moved on to some. [TS]

01:28:06   ELSON is life like there they don't have a lot of turnover in their company they do run it more like a family it seems [TS]

01:28:11   like all the people who work there are happy with it otherwise why would they stay. [TS]

01:28:14   Not like a place where you know it and to be a lot of making a big deal about the do you know you. [TS]

01:28:21   It's inoffensive work environment or whatever someone missing that's like legally is boilerplate and. [TS]

01:28:26   That sounds vaguely plausible to me because at least one job that I work that I had to sign a thing that said you know. [TS]

01:28:32   As the core as a matter of course doing this job doing competitive research you may come across websites other people [TS]

01:28:37   find offensive and blah blah basically was just saying you may see porn sites. As part of your work. [TS]

01:28:41   And you promise you won't sue us because of right. [TS]

01:28:44   And because they're out there on the web and you may be going and that. [TS]

01:28:48   If you work a penny arcade and it's a comic strip that. [TS]

01:28:52   You know has adult themes [TS]

01:28:53   and doing competitive research you may agree on a course of things over never that seems like actually kind of [TS]

01:28:58   reasonable thing to say up front to people that like for example you're familiar with a R.K. [TS]

01:29:03   But just so you know this is what it's about this is what you may come in contact with. It is not I think. [TS]

01:29:08   Trying to have people sign away their rights to be sexually harassed [TS]

01:29:11   or probably because I have to believe that if anything like that was going on inside Penny Arcade we would hear about [TS]

01:29:16   it right. Like that they're not they're not the N.S.A. Than a CIA the not silencing people as they go out the door. [TS]

01:29:23   Everyone who works there seems to like working in there they all seem to like each other the people who leave. [TS]

01:29:27   Do not leave disgruntled and hating it. [TS]

01:29:29   Maybe it's like a cult numbering washing everybody but I have a really hard time believing that. [TS]

01:29:33   I still think this is an ill advised. Hiring decision. [TS]

01:29:37   And I sure as hell wouldn't take that job myself but I am I definitely have mixed feelings about it is this a you know. [TS]

01:29:44   Is this good or bad for and the person who ends up taking that job [TS]

01:29:49   and being happy with it I can how can you say if someone takes that job. [TS]

01:29:52   And they're super happy with it for you know even if they're only happy with their two years like I have people are [TS]

01:29:58   sometimes are in jobs for less than two years who are you to say that person they shouldn't have taken that job. [TS]

01:30:03   Maybe in retrospect they will feel like they should and I know if I took that job. [TS]

01:30:06   And then grew to my current ripe old age. I would regret having taken that job but that's me. [TS]

01:30:11   Everyone's different so I don't know. I don't think. I mean to wrap this up because I think I think. [TS]

01:30:16   I think we're in a little long here. [TS]

01:30:18   I think it's a complicated issue because it divides people along the same lines as like. [TS]

01:30:26   How much the government should mandate about how things are done or how you. How you live your own life. [TS]

01:30:32   And people are so split on issues like this like it. Labor laws almost always have this kind of problem. [TS]

01:30:37   Where it's like well if you know the the government or the society's expectations or you know from critics like us. [TS]

01:30:45   We might say oh well. Having having like workaholism be the norm is really bad and you know you. [TS]

01:30:53   You need to have codify vacation schedules and. [TS]

01:30:56   You know limited hours or paid overtime to discourage constant overworking and stuff like that. You know you have. [TS]

01:31:04   You have issues where a lot of people think that that should be regulated that the government should say. [TS]

01:31:10   The government should step in and play well it's really better for people overall. [TS]

01:31:15   If you live by these rules or follow these guidelines or restrictions are limits. [TS]

01:31:20   It's kind of like a parent role like you know we know better for you than what you've done what you're claiming so even [TS]

01:31:26   if the employer wants you to do something. And you agree and you will do it and you're happy doing it. [TS]

01:31:31   The you know the government might say you know that's actually worse for people in general so we're not going to allow [TS]

01:31:36   that. [TS]

01:31:38   And that's a very controversial things similar to that similar to that all of our opinions on this like you said [TS]

01:31:43   earlier Casey and John both. You know if. If the employees there are happy in that environment. Is it really that bad. [TS]

01:31:51   And so I think. We can't really. You know we can say this is bad in general and generally you shouldn't take this job. [TS]

01:31:59   But if they happen to find somebody who will take that job which they probably all they almost certainly will very [TS]

01:32:04   easily because they have such a big following. [TS]

01:32:07   We you know we can't really say like that person's an idiot like they're making that choice. [TS]

01:32:12   But I think we can say in general. You shouldn't do things like this at but even that is even as controversial. [TS]

01:32:21   You should even for the person taking that job like. You can't be sure that you're going to like it as much as you do. [TS]

01:32:26   And talk about like labor laws and stuff like that. In general like. [TS]

01:32:31   This is all sort of talk about first world problems here like labor. Labor laws. [TS]

01:32:36   There's so much low hanging fruit in terms of stopping the wall much all march of the world not paying their employees [TS]

01:32:40   enough. This person is going to be paid enough to like get food on the table. [TS]

01:32:45   Right so in the grand scheme of things it pales in comparison to the worker exploitation that happens lower down in the [TS]

01:32:50   scale of things but for our little you know. Enlightened world of developers and stuff. [TS]

01:32:55   This is like the equip the like the the crazy. [TS]

01:32:58   Equivalent of that [TS]

01:32:59   and among developers is that we've probably all been in jobs where we felt like we were overworked [TS]

01:33:04   and we feel like we were in appreciated and then sharing this excess of the company [TS]

01:33:07   and we see this is the place where that could happen. [TS]

01:33:09   So be aware don't go in thinking it's all going to Rose in sunshine because it's really really tough especially we see [TS]

01:33:14   a young person doing it where they don't know they don't know they're going to like they don't know if they're going to [TS]

01:33:18   be happy because they don't have any experience with anything. And maybe they'll think alike it may be you know. [TS]

01:33:22   Burnout is definitely a possibility of the Be happy for the first year and realize. [TS]

01:33:26   I can never go anywhere in a miserable and I've sacrificed my entire life and I didn't realize I was doing it. [TS]

01:33:30   It's mostly like you're trying to help people go on with their eyes open and I think the brutal and honest [TS]

01:33:35   and kind of helps in that but it also kind of makes it seem more exciting [TS]

01:33:39   and daring to young people with less experience of like ought to do this thing because it's super hard and everything. [TS]

01:33:44   In general it's not even if you're even if they were fixed on the stupid plan of of hiring a single person to do all [TS]

01:33:51   these jobs. [TS]

01:33:52   There are better ways to go about presenting that position to have more have a better chance of finding a successful [TS]

01:33:59   match with someone who really will be happy and I position. [TS]

01:34:02   And I'll add it with private companies is difficult but you don't just like to wait outside the company. [TS]

01:34:08   Just for that person to leave one two three four five six seven ten years from now and say. [TS]

01:34:12   How was it was it but you thought it was Are you happy. You know. We told you so get off my lawn. [TS]

01:34:17   I mean maybe admit you're going to tell you that maybe maybe they are going to love it maybe they got think it's [TS]

01:34:20   awesome. [TS]

01:34:21   I have to say having consume tons and tons of Penny Arcade on content over the years [TS]

01:34:25   and seeing all like what their work life [TS]

01:34:27   and there are many times I've said Boy I wish my work was like that boyish I cared about my coworkers the way they [TS]

01:34:32   apparently care about their right and that's why they get all these employees [TS]

01:34:34   and we just we just want them not to take advantage of that and like exploit somebody that. [TS]

01:34:40   We know we have this environment look awesome on camera and secretly inside were evil. [TS]

01:34:44   And we're going to abuse this person. And we're going to get some sucker in like that's. [TS]

01:34:48   That's what we fear but we don't know what's going on so it's that's a fear [TS]

01:34:51   but you can't say that's definitely what it's like inside Penny Arcade and. [TS]

01:34:54   I know I don't mix and so this is even this is not even touching the. [TS]

01:34:59   Mike's many foot in mouth disease problems and his major problems understanding on line [TS]

01:35:04   and again this topic I don't think you guys know about them but it's probably not appropriate for a tech show [TS]

01:35:08   but this job listening is all right then. Let's wrap it up. Thanks a lot to our to sponsor this week. [TS]

01:35:14   Tang and Warby Parker. And we will see you next week. [TS]

01:35:20   Know the show is over they didn't even mean to say it was accidental. [TS]

01:35:28   With accidental Joe because it was that death was accidental. And you did a little bit. [TS]

01:35:52   And he what else says so that's keep lists and the and team article. [TS]

01:36:06   It's a different key is paying our kid is a division of issue. A company that engender strong feelings so if we see. [TS]

01:36:29   We'll see if we get tons of feedback from the people who hate Penny Arcade [TS]

01:36:32   and say they were defending him too much I'm from the people who love me OK didn't say we were saying bad things about [TS]

01:36:37   our Maybe we'll get almost no feedback at all which means that there is no overlap in our audiences. I wonder what. [TS]

01:36:44   What do you think will be more hated. Our opinion. Our collective opinion on a penny arcade job posting or me or Casey. [TS]

01:36:55   Why can't it be both. [TS]

01:36:58   Probably the right I really hated Margo in cases opinion of the bit now I think I'll get the worst of it because the [TS]

01:37:03   problem with problem of trying to be like to have the dishes he nuanced [TS]

01:37:07   or like you you acknowledge the unknowns in a situation like all we have to go on is a job posting at a bunch of video [TS]

01:37:13   the none of us really know. And you know like that uncertainty. [TS]

01:37:17   And that hedging seems like what you're defending then you're saying there better is I'm just acknowledging the [TS]

01:37:21   unknowns of people hate that because it's not. They just want to see you decisively come down for against. [TS]

01:37:26   And that sort of wishy washy of the they target is wishy washy [TS]

01:37:30   but I feel like it's its accuracy if the knowledge in the unknowns you can't make definitive statements without more [TS]

01:37:35   information. [TS]

01:37:36   And that comes off as not as certainty as much more attractive and interesting [TS]

01:37:40   and so they want you to be certain about something and. I can't. Well I'm proud that I'm pronouncing to visit wrong. [TS]

01:37:46   Probably live. I've always heard divisive I bet if I looked it up in the dictionary now tell me this Tuesday. [TS]

01:37:51   Princie Asian. I mean you know. [TS]

01:37:52   I almost called you out on it but since I've gotten burned my a lot of burned myself so bad on these things. [TS]

01:37:58   I feel like Richard Pryor you know I've let myself up trying to smoke if you will not literally but figuratively. [TS]

01:38:03   And so I refuse to make any sort of commentary on grammar [TS]

01:38:07   or pronunciation issues it says one pronunciation devices while it's a divisive issue I'm still I'm still way ahead a [TS]

01:38:14   group or on mispronunciation. Your problem John. Is that you're a fan of Penny Arcade.. [TS]

01:38:22   You actually know them you're clear closer to than the ME in K.C. You know. [TS]

01:38:26   I don't know that my I read the comic about. Well you K.C. and I as far as OK we don't give a shit about Penny Arcade. [TS]

01:38:32   Like I said I don't I don't I never going to the comic I was you know I like I've I've known of it for. I don't know. [TS]

01:38:38   Years a decade. But I've never read it regular I've never really cared and. Honestly when people link me to it. [TS]

01:38:45   I don't even find that funny it's not my kind of. [TS]

01:38:47   Not my kind of thing that you know you have to be a gamer it's a game or broke [TS]

01:38:50   but you're actually close enough that like any opinion you make. And you know as you said like by having a nuanced. [TS]

01:38:58   Hedge opinion. Anything you say is going to actually anger both sides. [TS]

01:39:03   Like the people who don't like them from this job posting are going to be like. You didn't come down hard enough. [TS]

01:39:08   And the people who are fans of the me like you traitor you're one of us. [TS]

01:39:12   Like but the thing is it's like the cult of personality where you think you know people who listen to their podcast [TS]

01:39:18   and everything in a certain point reading Penny Arcade fifteen years [TS]

01:39:21   and going to like inventions you start to feel like you know the people and when they do. Terrible stupid things. [TS]

01:39:27   If you don't know them. You just simply condemn them and say you have done a terrible stupid thing. [TS]

01:39:31   If you do know them you're like oh. [TS]

01:39:33   You did a terrible stupid thing like if your friend does it don't you like talk to your friend [TS]

01:39:36   and say What are you doing man like. Because they've done lots of terrible stupid things. [TS]

01:39:41   And I even though I don't know these people at all the feeling I get is not like. [TS]

01:39:46   Hey there's a thing I never heard of you know when someone thinks you do something or someone said something dumb. [TS]

01:39:50   And you have no idea who it is all you know is like oh man this person is a terrible person. Right. [TS]

01:39:54   Like some You Tube video some person saying something terrible [TS]

01:39:56   or some politician you never heard of saying something terrible. You just instantly go back I suppose All right. [TS]

01:40:01   But if someone links you to like your brother saying something terrible. [TS]

01:40:04   You want to talk to your brothers they were you doing man I you know you'd hope is that I know you're not as terrible [TS]

01:40:09   as that is or maybe you are a terrible me to talk about it about [TS]

01:40:12   and that's how I feel that the penny arcade stuff like it was a good poster and see Frontalot which is a musician [TS]

01:40:17   and also a friend of the guys with a similar conflict going. You're enjoying a terrible thing. [TS]

01:40:23   But I know you guys have it in you to a realize that it's terrible and B. [TS]

01:40:29   Fix it and seeing them not take those two steps. Not seem to realize what was wrong with they did. [TS]

01:40:34   And not seeming to fix it is just so frustrating a lot of people are sort of cutting ties or like you've had. [TS]

01:40:40   You know three strikes you're out you keep doing these dumb things. And maybe they just don't have people around them. [TS]

01:40:44   Explain to them what the problem of the really can turn a lot is it. And like it's. [TS]

01:40:50   It's a tough situation and you know I feel like I feel like that I have this. [TS]

01:40:54   Un spoken relationship with these people where I totally don't the same way that people feel like they know us because [TS]

01:40:58   they listen to our podcast. And so yeah I definitely am closer to it but I don't. [TS]

01:41:03   What I don't want people think is because I'm close to it I defend these terrible things they do which again I don't [TS]

01:41:07   want to get into but simply the job posting itself. [TS]

01:41:10   I don't think that was the right way to go about that on so many different levels. Despite the fact that I. [TS]

01:41:15   Knowledge that it is very possible that the president takes the job will be happy with it [TS]

01:41:19   and will come out of the company saying I was glad to get that job. [TS]

01:41:23   You know it's funny hearing you talk about you know knowing someone who does something stupid and knowing [TS]

01:41:28   and not know seeing a stranger do something stupid. [TS]

01:41:31   And I feel like Marco that's why you get burned a lot because you're very passionate in very Pinney needed which in [TS]

01:41:37   and of itself is not bad but I think that a lot of times you come across as arrogant and because I know you [TS]

01:41:44   and Will both of us know you as well as we do. [TS]

01:41:46   I don't think it's thing of it and then I'll see I can think of a great example [TS]

01:41:49   but also the Internet go free cannot speak as Marco said this you know ridiculously arrogant thing. [TS]

01:41:54   And some Me I'm just like we want. Because I know you and I know. I know one off a bell. [TS]

01:42:00   The where you're coming from to know that's probably not how you meant it [TS]

01:42:04   or even if it is you meant to you know Level two out of ten in the internets taking to the level ten out of ten. [TS]

01:42:10   And it's a very it's a very similar thing and so it's often funny for me to watch some of the skirmishes you. [TS]

01:42:16   You either get yourself into or put yourself in because not always [TS]

01:42:21   but most times I'm like oh that instance market the market whatever you get graded on a curve once once you have any [TS]

01:42:26   amount of rain right. It's scrutiny is much higher and Penny Arcade like. [TS]

01:42:30   That's not excusing them at all Penny Arcade has tons of same [TS]

01:42:33   and they guess what you get the good in the bad that comes with that I mean Same with the market would you rather have [TS]

01:42:37   people not care what you say. Or overreact. About what you say and they mean like. [TS]

01:42:41   That's the price of a depends on the day. [TS]

01:42:43   I know but that but that's the price of being well known that the price of being successful in your endeavors is that. [TS]

01:42:48   Things you say are going to be scrutinized I mean the obvious that the biggest event of any kind of politician [TS]

01:42:53   or the president rather they say anything a fart the wrong way to say they don't like broccoli as an international [TS]

01:42:57   incident number that with. Maybe you don't. George Bush anyway. We were alive for that. [TS]

01:43:02   That's that comes with the territory and it's for Penny Arcade guys. [TS]

01:43:06   A end up doing legitimately bad things [TS]

01:43:08   and be railed against the the unfairness of being being held to the standard that they didn't want to sign up for [TS]

01:43:16   and like. That's. I understand the emotion. But you have to realize that comes with the territory you. Can't you can't. [TS]

01:43:24   There's no like. [TS]

01:43:25   There's no one in your movie like ah ha [TS]

01:43:26   but I don't except that you're going to scrutinize me therefore my actions shouldn't be taken as seriously as they are [TS]

01:43:32   you don't get to decide that right. You do speak for a large media conglomerate empire. [TS]

01:43:37   Your words do have more effect than they would if your regular press and you can't go back to being a regular joe. [TS]

01:43:44   Yeah. It's. That's the way it is I feel like I should if I sit down with them for like. [TS]

01:43:49   OK maybe they would have to be an island for a month. Because sometimes I feel like I thought. [TS]

01:43:54   I'm going to see jobs in a room I could convince him of X. Y. and Like not realistically he would walk out of the room. [TS]

01:43:58   I need to have him prisoner in a nice way. [TS]

01:44:02   So that they can run away eventually though it's like in the movie where like some. [TS]

01:44:06   You know there's a prisoner or even just like a student to like him to being the hate the teacher [TS]

01:44:10   and they teach for the first six months but then they finally come around [TS]

01:44:12   and then the real work it's going that's what you need. [TS]

01:44:14   Like someone should be able to talk to these guys [TS]

01:44:18   and explain to them what it is they're missing because I really believe they can be turned around just haven't done yet. [TS]

01:44:23   Well it's. I don't think they think there's anything wrong with this. [TS]

01:44:27   I know that's that's problems hero that Herod is I mean like this like maybe someone could explain to you maybe no [TS]

01:44:33   one's explaining at the right way let me explain it again and his role. Well and you know it's hard when. [TS]

01:44:39   When you get as much crap as they get which I can only begin to imagine. [TS]

01:44:44   You know I get some small fraction of that amount of crap and. I am. I'm always surprised. [TS]

01:44:53   In the new way that I've accidentally offended people like. It's a new it's like every week. [TS]

01:44:59   I accidentally stumble upon a new way to I've offended somebody. And it gets to me it really does I you know. [TS]

01:45:06   I want to be a nice guy I don't want to be a dick. I don't want people to think I'm a dick. [TS]

01:45:11   But you're just so good at it. But I really don't mean to be. That's. [TS]

01:45:15   I think that's that's totally unintentional but you but you would learn from your mistakes like [TS]

01:45:21   and again I don't want to get into the specific instances [TS]

01:45:23   but they'll they'll say something that is like unintentionally. Sexist or Transvaal because something. And they'd. [TS]

01:45:29   And they literally don't know what they just did wrong. And that's the problem. Right. And that. [TS]

01:45:36   And the worst reactions to get defensive in double down and that's what they do they get grants of [TS]

01:45:39   and double down on the wrong thing it did. And it's like. [TS]

01:45:43   That's all they have like trying to educate someone to like if you do something that is legitimately. [TS]

01:45:47   You know if you said something that actually is arrogant. [TS]

01:45:49   You know the way you said it is dismissive of other people [TS]

01:45:52   and whatever I feel like that you learn from that experience and learn to say the same thing in a different way [TS]

01:45:57   or be more clear about what you're saying right or. [TS]

01:45:59   You know express your express your sentiment more accurately so it's less likely to be misinterpreted the wrong way. [TS]

01:46:05   I don't think you've ever been a situation where you said something that is like totally wrong and terrible. [TS]

01:46:10   And double down on it. And we're like. [TS]

01:46:13   No Actually screw you and let me tell you why I'm going to say that even more like that total. [TS]

01:46:19   You know emotional reaction your reaction always is. You know. Introspective and. [TS]

01:46:24   Well not always something you know meant but know that's that's the problem is like my instinct. I think. [TS]

01:46:30   I think which is a natural instinct is to be defensive like and. [TS]

01:46:33   I look back on these on like you know things that that blow up didn't mean to blow up that [TS]

01:46:39   and look back on like what I actually said and did. [TS]

01:46:42   After it's all over and I and I can see like wow I did completely the wrong thing like I I got the fences. [TS]

01:46:48   I was being a mature or angry or impulsive like. I look back and I'm ashamed of it but you know it's easy to say. [TS]

01:46:55   But you but you learn from it the don't you like you don't make that exact specific mistake again right. [TS]

01:46:59   Yeah but I find new ones like you know it's. It's easy to say Oh. If I was in the situation like this. I would. [TS]

01:47:07   I would do X. Y. and Z. Like I would react this way. But then it's. When you're actually in that situation. [TS]

01:47:12   A lot of times doesn't turn out that way. And it. [TS]

01:47:16   So hard when you when your instinct is to be defensive or to say things off the cuff. [TS]

01:47:24   As if you're talking to a smaller group of people who likes you more than the actual group people are talking to that's [TS]

01:47:28   much bigger. It's. [TS]

01:47:31   It's really hard to get used to that and it's really hard to to fundamentally change your behavior your personality. [TS]

01:47:37   To to stand off those rough edges I mean. I'm thirty one and I still haven't figured out how to do that quite well yet. [TS]

01:47:44   Like I'm trying. [TS]

01:47:45   But I really have not figured it out yet there are similar ages I think every tween you [TS]

01:47:50   and I think they're there in their thirty's like they have kids. [TS]

01:47:52   Similar age like they're trying to figure it out as well and that that instinct to lash out like it's. [TS]

01:47:59   It's not just instinct lash out it's like the things that you get called on are just so minor compared to the things [TS]

01:48:05   they do wrong. And it's. [TS]

01:48:06   Well I think it's mostly because I have a much smaller audience so like if I had an audience the size of there's I [TS]

01:48:12   think I would get as much as they do if not more because I'm even less experienced at talking to an audience as large [TS]

01:48:21   as theirs as they are. Well I mean. Here's a guy name never like that. So you said something like. You know. [TS]

01:48:28   Well everyone knows the girls can climb trees I guess is something sexist like that right. And. [TS]

01:48:32   And you didn't understand that that statement was sexist. You. All you can see is about the tree climbing business. [TS]

01:48:38   And like you didn't understand conceptual conceptually like you know like what sex is about that's just a statement of [TS]

01:48:44   fact everyone knows girls can't climb trees like you don't understand the broader context in which US They've been [TS]

01:48:48   and like. Then you double down you get are you about and you get lost in the details and it's like you like. [TS]

01:48:55   There is a base understanding of what it is stay here that. That does not exist in your head. [TS]

01:49:01   And so even if you get to the point as they frequently do where they are an apology mode [TS]

01:49:04   and the like where we're sorry we. [TS]

01:49:07   The last thing you want to do is offend people we care about all these people like honest statements of apology [TS]

01:49:11   but they don't understand what they're apologizing when they don't understand like the you know. [TS]

01:49:16   The historical and cultural context of sexism versus just well I said something wrong kind of. [TS]

01:49:22   At some point and now I have to apologize for it but I don't really understand what I'm falling for. [TS]

01:49:27   That's that's their problem and they keep doing that over and over again [TS]

01:49:29   and nothing you have done is ever reach that level of like you not you understand why someone is like if you say [TS]

01:49:35   something that dismissive of like some programming I wouldn't people get you understand it's because you were [TS]

01:49:39   dismissive of permit. There's not like a a millennia long. Oppression of P.H.P. [TS]

01:49:44   Programmer things like that the context that you are completely unaware of or not able to internalize [TS]

01:49:48   and it's hard lot of people are not able to internalize those things and. One way is to just you know. [TS]

01:49:54   Shun [TS]

01:49:55   and the other way is to try to explain to you know they call them allies like someone who wants to do the right thing [TS]

01:50:00   but doesn't understand what they did wrong to try to bring them onto your side but explain what they did wrong. [TS]

01:50:06   Like those blogs I think serve a purpose because I feel like I have in seeing not just them [TS]

01:50:10   but on every other Internet blog where someone says something and then than some interest group jumps on them [TS]

01:50:14   and shred them to bits. Has made me more aware. [TS]

01:50:18   Not that like that interest group is a totally right and I guys totally wrong [TS]

01:50:21   but just more aware of issues that I wasn't aware of before. [TS]

01:50:24   In a way that gives me a bigger picture of like humanity like makes you question your assumptions about things that you [TS]

01:50:30   hadn't thought about before. So that you know. So I think. [TS]

01:50:34   I hope some portion of the audience seeing these train wrecks. [TS]

01:50:37   Is coming out of it like maybe those people those allies are being educated. [TS]

01:50:41   Even if the people involved in the conflict are not. [TS]

01:50:45   Which of this to bed I'm only on tech podcasts I would love to be on progress to talk specifically about the issues [TS]

01:50:50   involved here but it is not appropriate for tech but yes it does make a new one I mean you know who was another bug as. [TS]

01:50:57   No replied. Yes I mean across three Idiots can do it then anyone can. [TS]

01:51:03   I know it's funny I was just complaining to Marmie not complaining [TS]

01:51:06   but lamenting is probably a better word to Marco I think was earlier today that as part of my new found order ideas [TS]

01:51:12   like an after poll minus list celebrity is. [TS]

01:51:16   I feel like I'm getting the point and maybe just cuz I'm an idiot [TS]

01:51:19   but I feel like I'm getting the point that everything I post anywhere in any capacity is met with a million. [TS]

01:51:25   Like silly critiques and. L. In it just gets. [TS]

01:51:30   It gets annoying and it gets frustrating and a lot of times I want to engage and where I think Mark [TS]

01:51:36   and I are both learning is. I'm trying to get better about not engaging. But my national reaction is. [TS]

01:51:44   You know somebody posts on Twitter if you know what exactly they said but something. [TS]

01:51:48   Something along the lines of oh you know our well yeah that's what it was it was you know I Show on Blog had had asked [TS]

01:51:54   me to do something for his new website and. When somebody had posted. [TS]

01:51:58   You know why the hell do I care what this this other guy has to say and I and so. [TS]

01:52:03   Because I'm an idiot I engaged and I said something along the lines of Well you know. [TS]

01:52:06   Even the other guy has an opinion every once in awhile. [TS]

01:52:09   And their response which I should've expected was something along the lines of. [TS]

01:52:12   You know honestly I don't like you or Marco I just listen for John. [TS]

01:52:15   Which is pretty much everyone that was since the show. [TS]

01:52:18   So I think I remember the sort of did you see what I responded to that person. [TS]

01:52:21   No I don't think that's because I didn't see see you. But if you could look look at the thread you'll see. [TS]

01:52:26   Like I rarely engage as well but sometimes sometimes it's worth doing. [TS]

01:52:32   You know like maybe and maybe it was inappropriate for you to engage in that thing and just so i times [TS]

01:52:36   when I don't like here has been about like a lot of times people will say that they don't like your whatever. [TS]

01:52:44   Thing they don't like within your part cast they don't care about your opinion. [TS]

01:52:48   They will be expressing it not so many words that they have different priorities than you do. [TS]

01:52:54   The fact that they're throwing that in your face may bother you but you have to also like. [TS]

01:52:59   It's OK for people to have a different opinion it's not like what you do like. All right. Like that. There's nothing. [TS]

01:53:06   There's an argument to be had You're not going to turn them around you're not going to. [TS]

01:53:10   It's not my job and not my desire to find everyone who doesn't like me can and they should like me. Right. [TS]

01:53:15   The only thing I will engage on is people being mean for no good reason and people getting facts wrong. [TS]

01:53:21   And even even those I will. Selectively gauge on. [TS]

01:53:25   So if you will get facts wrong I will correct them because that is something where there is you know. [TS]

01:53:29   An argument to be haven't and I only do that if I'm feeling energetic [TS]

01:53:32   and people being I mean most of the time I will let that slide but today when I saw that tweet. You were talking about. [TS]

01:53:38   I didn't want all of that slide. And I thank my responses don't be a jerk. Because like there's a don't be a jerk. [TS]

01:53:45   You wouldn't like that's being just being a jerk. You don't like i'm fine. [TS]

01:53:48   You don't like we had to say Fine don't keep throwing in their faith in your we don't like your You're going like [TS]

01:53:53   ending you said OK fine don't listen to show the end period. Don't be a jerk about it. And so that's you know. [TS]

01:53:59   That's like it's OK not to like them. It's not. [TS]

01:54:02   It's nothing wrong with them maybe you don't like looking at us plenty of things that I like to listen to [TS]

01:54:06   or watch either. [TS]

01:54:07   But I think the people out and tell them how much I don't like them repeatedly that's just being a dark. Yeah. [TS]

01:54:12   I think people. People who don't get a lot of random strangers giving them feedback. [TS]

01:54:18   Would probably be shocked at how much crap you get [TS]

01:54:22   when you have a lot of RAM drinkers giving you feedback on the Internet like you know just for extreme version of this. [TS]

01:54:29   Look on Twitter look at the at reply stream like a celebrity [TS]

01:54:33   or somebody who has like you know hundreds of thousands of followers [TS]

01:54:36   or more like look at look at look at Gruber's celebrity. You know. Look at river's stream. Look at his that replied. [TS]

01:54:42   You know look anybody anybody who has a large following. Who who says anything of any. You know value ever and. [TS]

01:54:50   You're going to see hundreds and hundreds of people calling him a criminal and tell them they're an idiot. [TS]

01:54:56   And you know when you put yourself out there. And once you get any size audience at all. [TS]

01:55:03   You're going to get a lot of really good feedback from people. And you could get. You could get a hundred positive. [TS]

01:55:09   E-mails and tweets a day. [TS]

01:55:11   Saying that they liked what you wrote and that was great and then you get four idiots who tell you that your. [TS]

01:55:17   Just a moron and they hate everything you do and. [TS]

01:55:22   It's really you know for some people who have a thick skin you know it's easy for to let that. [TS]

01:55:28   You know his role if you're back and OK that's fine. [TS]

01:55:32   Some people read it bothers them like and I think that is the natural the natural reaction is that's a bother you [TS]

01:55:38   and I'm one of those people. It bothers me. And every every nasty thing that I that I get bothers me. Which is one. [TS]

01:55:47   Like. So my recommended thing to Casey but you know I told him earlier I am like. My strategy for this is. [TS]

01:55:54   If somebody says something. Uncivil or by my definition on reasonable in some way over Twitter. I just block them. [TS]

01:56:03   First time. [TS]

01:56:03   First offense don't care walk and then it's gone because modern Twitter clients [TS]

01:56:07   when you block somebody actually remove the tweet from your timeline you stop seeing it and. [TS]

01:56:13   Generally speaking a lot more hate. Comes from a lot fewer people than you think. [TS]

01:56:20   And so you know you might have like four guys who troll you with everything you write or say. [TS]

01:56:27   And the same four guys every time. [TS]

01:56:29   So if you go hand out for blocks you're limited like eighty percent of your trolling you see. [TS]

01:56:34   And I know that you know a lot of people and John even you said you like a lot of people would engage with that [TS]

01:56:40   or try to comment or fight back and. And I found that. Almost universally never to be worthwhile. [TS]

01:56:47   And almost universally always makes everything worse and makes me get more angry or annoyed [TS]

01:56:53   or feeling bad about it like it just builds the negativity in the best way for me to handle it just to remove it. [TS]

01:56:59   Because I can't deal with that like Joe Spolsky left blogging because of this. [TS]

01:57:05   Like Joe on software there's so much good stuff on there. [TS]

01:57:08   But because he wrote things with strong opinions to an audience of programmers. He got the worst crap from people ever. [TS]

01:57:14   EDITION to all the positive and he wrote in one of his one of his last like Main Post [TS]

01:57:18   when his blog was was still active but he was basically saying he's quitting. [TS]

01:57:22   One of things he wrote was like he could get one hundred positive comments and one negative one [TS]

01:57:26   and that negative only bother him all day. And I totally get that on the exact same way. Oh yeah. [TS]

01:57:31   If you can learn to to not think you should because I think you should do whatever it takes to you know. [TS]

01:57:38   Have an even keel and if it's blocking that's what it is but as someone who usually. [TS]

01:57:43   I have very rarely buy of like spammers obviously but I very rarely block people who are being jerks to me. [TS]

01:57:48   Because if you can learn to absorb that there is very often. [TS]

01:57:53   Some kernel of truth in the in the negative feedback the you get particularly in the negative feedback that you hate [TS]

01:57:59   the most because you will. [TS]

01:58:00   If someone says something to you like and they said to me that that I am tremendously overweight. [TS]

01:58:06   That would not bother me because I'm not trying to the overweight right. [TS]

01:58:08   But if they say something that's close to home. [TS]

01:58:10   Right then that bothers you more in the closer they get to the truth even if they're super mean about it [TS]

01:58:15   and don't rely on aren't you know that if they're saying it much worse than it is. [TS]

01:58:20   If there is some kernel of truth you can have the most visceral negative reaction to that. [TS]

01:58:24   And if you can learn to absorb that what you can do is come away from it [TS]

01:58:27   and learn from whatever that kernel of truth that it is figure it out examine it and try to improve on that axis. [TS]

01:58:34   Going for. [TS]

01:58:34   If you think it's an important thing to improve on maybe the person saying you're doing something that they think is [TS]

01:58:38   bad that you think is good then fine whatever ignore them but if. If it really bothers you because you also kind of. [TS]

01:58:44   Deep down agrees that's a bad thing. [TS]

01:58:46   You work on it [TS]

01:58:47   and try to make it better doesn't mean you have to absorb tons of abuse to make this happen you can still block a [TS]

01:58:51   person or whatever. [TS]

01:58:53   But the the anti pattern is totally blocking out all negative feedback [TS]

01:58:57   and just you know sort of becoming a Hollywood rock star where you don't have anything like you become Tom Cruise [TS]

01:59:03   or you know. I don't mean Tom Cruise but anyway. [TS]

01:59:06   Where you were you don't let anything negative in you start living in your own bubble. [TS]

01:59:10   And that's your way to deal with things and that's. [TS]

01:59:11   You don't want that to happen you don't want to isolate yourself so much from feedback that you are inside a bubble [TS]

01:59:17   and I found that most people. If you call them on their B.S. Most people will be you know. You know a little bit. [TS]

01:59:26   They'll build a little bit of introspection if you do in the right way it's very difficult to do you have to disengage [TS]

01:59:30   yourself from the process but one Examples are the I was seven kid video. [TS]

01:59:34   The kid who was like crying about I listen we talked about on the show right. [TS]

01:59:38   So I tweeted that before I think was before the show I tweeted that. [TS]

01:59:41   And some person responded to me and said boy that kid you know your kid is a big Brad or something like that right. [TS]

01:59:48   And so there's two things one one that's not my kid [TS]

01:59:51   and two like it's a seven year old like crying about her five year old whatever is crying about things that five year [TS]

01:59:56   old cry about right. And so I kind of just ignored that. [TS]

02:00:00   I'm not going to convince them that kid is not a brat that's not my goal. But they got a factor on so I said. [TS]

02:00:06   That's not my kid. Which is true. [TS]

02:00:07   And you know I didn't try to and you would know that if you listen to the blow up no I just looked at my kid. [TS]

02:00:12   One can one want to correct that the second thing is I said. [TS]

02:00:15   That's not my kid [TS]

02:00:16   and that's an unkind thing to say because it's an unkind thing to say you're going to say kid you see on the video was [TS]

02:00:20   just a little kid was crying at some point is a brat. [TS]

02:00:23   That is an unkind thing to say and that's it that's all I said and this was an older woman who said this or whatever [TS]

02:00:28   and right or wrong you know you think like us older women should be some people are all places people are mean. [TS]

02:00:33   This person was not convinced my by my you know they agreed that it was a mean thing to say [TS]

02:00:37   but then also tried to you know. [TS]

02:00:39   Justify why they said it over OK Well I'm glad that's not your kid [TS]

02:00:42   but I still think they're kind of brought in that was it like I'm not going to pursue that further. [TS]

02:00:46   But I think that that tiny piece feedback I gave them. Correcting the fact and saying that they were being unkind. [TS]

02:00:51   Hopefully they gave them a moment's notice of saying. [TS]

02:00:55   Yes I was saying an unkind thing about a five year old on the Internet just now. [TS]

02:00:58   I may be dismissed and move on with their life but I hope that's planning a little see in every month in them. [TS]

02:01:03   Now that you know. It's not my thing that's what and. [TS]

02:01:06   If that was my kid maybe our reaction would be much more violent than I would block them and I would argue with them [TS]

02:01:11   but like that. [TS]

02:01:12   You know the correct reaction if you're going to engage at all is to try to help that person realize what a jerk [TS]

02:01:17   they're being moral right and like what you said is exactly correct which is like. [TS]

02:01:21   You know when the criticism is a little bit true. That's what hurts the most. And I think. [TS]

02:01:27   John you're exactly right that blocking out sources of negative criticism. [TS]

02:01:31   Completely is not good that's that's really bad I mean one thing I love about putting myself out there online is that I [TS]

02:01:40   get challenged on so many things that it forces me to become a better person it makes me a better writer. [TS]

02:01:46   It makes me a better thinker. It makes me a better person to have so much constant feedback. Good and bad. [TS]

02:01:53   The problem is it's. You have to draw a line somewhere you have to be able to distinguish between good feedback and. [TS]

02:02:01   People just being unreasonable or being trolls and. [TS]

02:02:06   When you have a large audience you're going to get a lot of both and. [TS]

02:02:10   You also have to have to make sure that you're not going to get such a massive deluge of negative feedback constantly [TS]

02:02:18   that it will discourage you from continuing to be present there. [TS]

02:02:22   And you know make you leave the internet or stop doing something like. I have so many horrible vocal traits. [TS]

02:02:30   Somehow not a lot of people have called me out on it in public because people aren't that mean I guess. [TS]

02:02:36   And certainly able to have a career as a pod cast or. I would never have thought. [TS]

02:02:40   Five years ago that I would be making a good chunk of my living from podcasts. Because I'm not a good speaker at all. [TS]

02:02:49   I have so many problems I thought about going to a speech therapist as an adult to fix. Weird things I do want to talk. [TS]

02:02:55   But I haven't had a pressing reason to yet because no one call me out on it. [TS]

02:03:00   But it's important to distinguish between people being mean for for invalid reasons or just being mean you know. [TS]

02:03:09   Because their me. [TS]

02:03:11   Can i don't think here because I think I have a great example so this person were talking earlier the that was being a [TS]

02:03:17   troll was just saying you know. Literally he. This person said I wish there was a way to mute out. [TS]

02:03:23   Marco and me another. [TS]

02:03:25   That's just that's just really not necessary and like John city the johns reply and said Don't be a jerk. [TS]

02:03:30   However I've seen a lot of feedback for myself. Things like. [TS]

02:03:34   Why do you hedge so much you don't need to do that you know when I say well you know. [TS]

02:03:39   Here's this big long opinion blah blah blah blah blah. [TS]

02:03:41   But that's just what I think like that I don't need to do that that's not necessary that is sometimes hurtful feedback [TS]

02:03:47   because it strikes close to home just like you were saying. [TS]

02:03:50   But it's good and positive and constructive feedback as opposed to. I wish I could meet two idiots. That's just not. [TS]

02:03:58   That's not helpful. And there is a big difference between the two. Right and like you know if. [TS]

02:04:04   If so many hundreds of listeners. [TS]

02:04:07   Told you after the very first show you had too much [TS]

02:04:11   or hundreds of listeners told me after my very first pod cast that they don't like the way. Talk. [TS]

02:04:17   We almost would have certainly stopped and left. And you know that's. Then like you know then everyone loses we lose. [TS]

02:04:23   People who like the show lose. You know so like it. [TS]

02:04:26   That's bad for everyone so it really is important to have some kind of balance and. [TS]

02:04:30   You can't control what people are going to say to you. [TS]

02:04:33   So it's really important to get be able to manage that somehow [TS]

02:04:38   and you know that's why hand out Twitter blocks aggressively. [TS]

02:04:40   It's just to manage that incoming stream just so that you know I'm not trying to block out all criticism I do want to [TS]

02:04:45   hear valid criticism. [TS]

02:04:47   I just want to try to filter out a lot of invalid criticism and a lot of unnecessary nastiness and. [TS]

02:04:53   If I don't filter all that out. I'm afraid I would just get tired of in leave. [TS]

02:04:58   One of the reasons I'm lighter on the blocking is because it's like I will never on block a person on your head because [TS]

02:05:03   he got a Twitter website. Like an animal as they say. [TS]

02:05:06   And then finally like I'm like oh but you never going to do that and like everyone has a bad day. [TS]

02:05:11   Everyone is cranky about something they don't like something you say they'll say some mean thing. [TS]

02:05:14   I'm willing to give people. You know the benefit of the doubt they say some jerky thing. [TS]

02:05:20   In till it becomes like oh here's the Perth and. [TS]

02:05:22   All they ever say is a jerky thing they're clearly not even a fan of the show [TS]

02:05:26   or anything that I do with they're just here to harass me no then they just become this becomes harassment [TS]

02:05:31   and then yes you. Paul the block I don't have people like that but. For example a game like the sexes and thing. [TS]

02:05:36   Many women online do have that. [TS]

02:05:38   Tons and tons of people who are just there to be evil harassers and dangerous kinds of ways [TS]

02:05:43   and I strongly encourage them to hand out the block like crazy in that instance. [TS]

02:05:47   All of us I think are lucky enough not to deal with that at all [TS]

02:05:49   and I can't even imagine with I'll be like they were whining about people saying that we don't have a good pod cast [TS]

02:05:54   which is nothing compared to the crap they get but yet that there is different categories [TS]

02:05:59   and the cat category of negative feedback I get is of a kind where I do not find myself having to hand out the blocks [TS]

02:06:07   spam or the no and get immediate book. Well Joy And you've also. [TS]

02:06:11   You've managed to develop your your way of arguing and presenting points. So well. [TS]

02:06:18   And this is probably because you're so ancient compared to us knew the man is the power of Usenet if you want to see me [TS]

02:06:25   making terrible arguments go search for us at archives for yet. Burned in the crucible of flame wars on usenet. [TS]

02:06:32   Now sir. By tons of Google ads. But you know like you've developed this for. [TS]

02:06:38   What a decade longer than we have or close to it you know that. Like you're a lot better at it. [TS]

02:06:44   You're like you know you're like you know there's this large chunk of time ahead of us in having all those rough edges [TS]

02:06:50   worn down of the argument style so that now you're really good at it. [TS]

02:06:54   So I think you get a lot less of the crap think he's you know I do. [TS]

02:06:58   I don't think it's necessarily age because you can find fifty year olds who are just babyish like. [TS]

02:07:03   I think it just comes from you know like this one [TS]

02:07:06   when I found the internet the thing I wanted to do with it was argue about computers with it like like so many other [TS]

02:07:11   people and argue about computers I did and argue about computers besom are people. Eventually teaches you. [TS]

02:07:18   Like what you're wrong about. And how to construct an argument. [TS]

02:07:23   And how to be able to either it makes you flee or like it you double down and become even a bigger jerk or if you. [TS]

02:07:28   If this is really something you want to pursue which it was for me. I became better at it it's like. [TS]

02:07:33   Like any kind of skill that you build up you know it's like. [TS]

02:07:36   If you start playing tennis and you keep getting your butt kicked. [TS]

02:07:39   And your reaction is to just hit the ball hard you can enjoy the air that is not getting better. [TS]

02:07:44   That is doubling down on your idiocy. Or you can say. Why do I keep getting beat. [TS]

02:07:48   What techniques can I learn to make myself better. [TS]

02:07:51   Let me practice and you know and different people have different reactions I think it's. It's not so much. [TS]

02:07:55   The the years of experience will help [TS]

02:07:57   but it's like what you did with those years because again I know plenty of people and you know on Usenet in forums [TS]

02:08:02   or whatever who are just as abrasive and terrible and illogical and irrational [TS]

02:08:06   and emotional as they were ten fifteen years ago and have learned nothing [TS]

02:08:10   but there are lots of other people who left that environment tireless [TS]

02:08:13   and there are other people who are slowly getting better and who eventually. That because if you pursue that as like. [TS]

02:08:18   This is something I'm interested I'm interested in arguing sounds crazy but it's you know. Some people are into it. [TS]

02:08:22   I think they are audience. [TS]

02:08:24   That does not sound crazy at all that it's not just coming from you that you would be interested in arguing. [TS]

02:08:28   Right and I think to some degree always always like the market why do you. [TS]

02:08:32   Why do you bother putting your opinions on blogs like why do you. You know like you want. [TS]

02:08:36   You want to say here's what I have to say what do you have to say you want to hear like good feedback from smart people [TS]

02:08:41   and so you can go back [TS]

02:08:42   and forth if you didn't care if you weren't interested in that you wouldn't be putting your opinions out there. [TS]

02:08:46   Like you wouldn't. Crave that back and forth so that's something you're doing with your life. [TS]

02:08:51   I am the first when I publish a blog post. The very first thing I do is basically spend the next forty five minutes. [TS]

02:08:57   Monitoring Twitter. Or an e-mail and. [TS]

02:08:59   And you know hoping that I get some feedback and reading it all [TS]

02:09:03   and possibly addressing it like that's the very first thing I do like it. [TS]

02:09:06   If I if I couldn't do that it would feel very lonely. And it would not. [TS]

02:09:11   It wouldn't give me as much of a return of satisfaction. Which is probably saying a lot about me and my you know. [TS]

02:09:18   Ego to them and our modern culture as a whole. But. [TS]

02:09:22   But like that's the getting that feedback is of utmost importance and. [TS]

02:09:26   It would feel very strange Now if I didn't get a kind of feedback. You know and very close friend of the show. [TS]

02:09:32   Underscore David Smith said in a chat a moment ago. [TS]

02:09:35   I find it really important to have a group of trusted friends who can tell you honest criticism. [TS]

02:09:39   Unsolicited feedback is where things get really rough. [TS]

02:09:41   And I completely agree with them I think it's nice to have a little bit of unsolicited feedback as long as it's [TS]

02:09:45   constructive. Because sometimes like I was saying earlier. [TS]

02:09:49   You know I might not think Marco's being a criminal because I know Marco [TS]

02:09:52   and I know that more often than not he's not intending to be an acquittal. But maybe somebody who doesn't know Marco. [TS]

02:09:59   Thinks he is being a criminal [TS]

02:10:00   and so it might be useful for market to hear some random person say hey you know what you really came off like it [TS]

02:10:04   happened on that. [TS]

02:10:06   But generally speaking I think it's extremely important just like Dave said to have a group that can call you out in [TS]

02:10:13   say you know what you really need to work on whatever they say is [TS]

02:10:17   and it can be about what you're working on it could be about something call you know just how you treat people could be [TS]

02:10:22   about any number of things but having that I think is very important. [TS]

02:10:27   So give us here all the handbrakes that are going to cover that section of it actually a step in the process to my best. [TS]

02:10:32   But I think it's better than the show a little different it's definitely another tack by guess on by the way speaking [TS]

02:10:38   of things that people get wrong no one is called me and they were my friends calling me on these things. [TS]

02:10:43   To chat room call me as they called me on divisive but not call me in that I believe [TS]

02:10:47   when I partition Maryland for an Aryan style song parody for our style parity for our song. Ironically misspoke. [TS]

02:10:56   The name of the R.E.M. Album. And I think I said plural murmurs and that's crazy talk. [TS]

02:11:00   And it was bad isn't it that just want everyone to know I know what the penalty I'm with I think this is meeting its [TS]

02:11:06   peak of things that are eating away at you [TS]

02:11:08   and it's like a song called me on that all the other this Dylan happens constantly is like my mispronunciation nuclear. [TS]

02:11:13   Like I mispronounce it all to I know it's wrong I'm not doing it on purpose I'm not like oh I'm taking a stand. [TS]

02:11:18   I'm going to say at their own way. Nope. I totally want to say it the right way every time. It just comes out. Nucular. [TS]

02:11:24   So many times and as I said in the many to retire I blame the eighty's like I do not want to say that. [TS]

02:11:29   It just happens I don't want to happen. I know it's wrong. Thank you for all the feedback people. I'm trying. [TS]

02:11:37   Also I didn't really intend for this to become group therapy but I'm kind of wedded to this was this was pretty good. [TS]

02:11:42   It's like back to work. Yeah yeah yeah I was just thinking myself this feels little back to work next week O.C.D. [TS]

02:11:48   and Comics blah in the mix and a lot. And then lots of comics. [TS]

02:11:54   And I actually I would love for Merlin to address this kind of topic at some point [TS]

02:11:59   and then it doesn't really fit into the show as I think. [TS]

02:12:01   I think he's talking about this about how to handle negative feedback [TS]

02:12:05   and I think you talk a lot about like negative self talk like you. Being your own worst enemy. [TS]

02:12:10   Negatively about the bill [TS]

02:12:11   but it's very it's a similar type of thing where sometimes the things you're saying to yourself. Are just mean. [TS]

02:12:16   And sometimes things you're saying to yourself are like there's a does a kernel of truth that you need to address and. [TS]

02:12:20   Like I feel like he has talked about this I feel like we just kind of did a miniature middle of some weird back to the [TS]

02:12:26   work. Thing back to the work. And now I was not ready to say the. There I know your friend. You know. [TS]

02:12:33   This is one of the things the problem of being on a podcast is. [TS]

02:12:36   You would think the connection between your brain in your mouth is fairly solid. And I listen to myself. [TS]

02:12:41   Podcast and like. What in the hell did you just like. I had no I did during the pop guess but I said life. [TS]

02:12:47   Words come out that just aren't should not be there. It's called misspeaking and. [TS]

02:12:51   I I'm I'm baffled as anyone else when I hear myself say it if you had told me what I had just that I heard then. [TS]

02:12:58   But anyway. It's terrible. I love how many people. Tweeted me over the last week. Thinking that. [TS]

02:13:04   When I said X bone repeatedly last week that was serious. How long if you listen to me you don't get that. [TS]

02:13:12   I joke about stuff like that sometimes come what I like the. I like about X. Bone. [TS]

02:13:16   Is that I don't think like the gamer community and internet fan base a large has decided whether X. [TS]

02:13:23   Bone is derogatory or like a pet names like a term of endearment. [TS]

02:13:28   Or even just like like well that just become the way everyone says it's so far I think it's both. [TS]

02:13:33   Some people say it to try to be like you know. To put down the X. Box. [TS]

02:13:37   And I think a lot of fans say it as a term of endearment and I just wanna see how it comes out in the end [TS]

02:13:42   and that being mostly a term I think I'll end up mostly being a term of endearment. [TS]

02:13:46   It is a lot easier and faster and unambiguous to say that the decision the else. [TS]

02:13:50   And less stupid than the third act like one. Right I mean it's a stupid. [TS]

02:13:56   Microsoft gave it such a stupid real name that we have to come up with stupid alternatives. You know good old sunny. [TS]

02:14:02   They put a number after it. They make the number bigger. He wanted titles for I pass out. [TS]

02:14:09   Yeah let's let's wrap [TS]

02:14:10   and why he was so tired you know you one of those jobs are they work you like a dog AC doing how long the labor [TS]

02:14:15   Bergeron I don't know you're in the same time zone as us right. Yes Yes I'm just I'm old. I go to bed early and. [TS]

02:14:23   You people with your children you know we can't get on the grill I get on the mike until nine o'clock I'm usually [TS]

02:14:28   crawling in bed at ten. I'm old. The case you should take over as an old man. Crawling into bed and. Yeah. [TS]

02:14:34   Now I'm not arguing I didn't think there was ever really. I didn't think I was ever up for grabs. [TS]

02:14:39   Penny wise pound foolish is pretty good. I think that you it so good. [TS]

02:14:43   That's is also being involved man with an old man phrasing I go out and play with my hope and stick later. But it. [TS]

02:14:53   But it can never get real thing like the people actually do that. [TS]

02:14:57   The hope is that was a real thing but since I'm some dental I was I was referencing the disingenuous joke. It. [TS]

02:15:04   They have yet. [TS]

02:15:04   I think they had the of the first time I remember what the second sense is Monte Burns was like a kid [TS]

02:15:09   and he was playing with anyway. This is a really old phrase like well if I'm fine with that. [TS]

02:15:15   It's good because it works because we because not only I think I think you actually said that exact phrase during the [TS]

02:15:20   Penny Arcade discussion. I did. But you know. It's so much about. [TS]

02:15:25   Penny Arcade like it's that or they would think about. Well. [TS]